Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice,
2018
Mon, 3/8 9:41PM
15:18
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
katie, commons, class, doctor, experience, health, augsburg, talk, thought, volunteer, prescription,
debriefing, cares, people, hour, learning, homelessness, outreach, recording, minneapolis
SPEAKERS... Show more
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice,
2018
Mon, 3/8 9:41PM
15:18
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
katie, commons, class, doctor, experience, health, augsburg, talk, thought, volunteer, prescription,
debriefing, cares, people, hour, learning, homelessness, outreach, recording, minneapolis
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Taylor Mattrice
S
Samantha Gibson
00:01
Hello, my name is Samantha Gibson. I'm an AmeriCorps VISTA worker at the Augsburg
Central Health Commons. Here today with Taylor. Would you introduce yourself for the
recording, please?
T
Taylor Mattrice 00:10
Hi, I'm Taylor Mattrice.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:14
I just wanted to reaffirm your consent now that you're willing to have this recording this
interview, and the transcript stored at Augsburg University, where it will be made
available to the public.
T
Taylor Mattrice 00:25
Yes, I am.
Samantha Gibson
00:26
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 1 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
00:26
I want to note also, for this recording that we are recording at the Augsburg Central
Health Commons. I want to note also on- for this recording that we are recording at the
Augsburg Central Health Commons. So if there's any background noise, that would be
why. To get us started today, could you please tell me where you're from, where you grew
up and who you called family?. So if there's any background noise, that would be whyto
get started today, could you please tell me where you're from? Where you grew up? And
who you called family?
T
Taylor Mattrice 00:46
Um, I’m from Lino Lakes, Minnesota. It's a small suburb, just north of Minneapolis. I have a
mom and a dad and a sister. Do you want their names? No? Okay.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:04
How did you end up at Augsburg University? Um, I applied there and was deciding
between there and another school, the University of Minnesota I decided to go to
Augsburg because of its size and because I could play softball there. How did you become
involved with the Health Commons? I took a class with the president of the university and
he had us come volunteer a shift here as part of our class requirements, and then I enjoyed
it. So I continue to coming back. Why was it part of the class requirements?
T
Taylor Mattrice 01:41
We alert in the class we're learning about, like the gap between rich and poor, and just like
going a lot of places to see what it's like to be homeless or to experience homelessness.
So coming here and seeing how Katie works with them was something he wanted us to
do.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:58
What can you tell me about your experiences here at the health commons? Um, I think it's
been really eye opening. Um, just learning from Katie things that I never really have
thought of before, like, basically with mental health mostly she talked a lot about how we
always think that it's necessary to force medicate people and get them into hospitals, get
them institutionalized, but, it's like, her thought process is why are we right and why should
they have to be what we think they need to be. Why can't we just help them be what they
want to be? And that's something that was really cool to start thinking about because like,
yeah, who says we’re more right than they are, you know? And in addition to that, it's just
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 2 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
kind of awesome to be able to see the same people like a couple times a week, and just
check in, they say- like see how their days going, um, get to know them. Some of them
have told me stories about their lives and it's really cool just how open they've been with
the short amount of time I've been here. Yeah. It sounds like an interesting shift in
perspective. How did your experience here fit or challenge your expectations, then? Um, I
think it- I don't really know if I had expectations. I, like, knew what it was kinda like, like
Katie was helping people but I expected more like actual nursing to be done, but it's more
just like support and yeah we'll check your blood pressure and whatnot. But this space, it
seems like it just like fosters an environment for her to form relationships with people and
everyone who's volunteering to form relationships with people, too. So, I guess it
challenged it in that it was more of like the one on one like interactions between people
rather than oh you're sick, let me help you and get you this prescription, like Katie can't do
that. How well do you think your experience at Health Commons relates to what you were
learning in that class you said first brought you here? Um, I think it relates a lot. We didn'tthey specifically didn't have us talk a lot about the health background of people who are
experiencing homelessness, um, Katie came and talked to us about that a few times but,
it's just kind of crazy to see the amount of things that they go through. Like things like
being sick that are easy for people who aren't experiencing homelessness to get over, like
I had strep last week and I just drove to the doctor and I was fine a day later. Um, they- it
would be much tougher for them to find a doctor, get to a doctor, get a prescription,
potentially pay for a prescription, like, there’s just so many more challenges and being
here and talking to people about that really applied to like what we were talking about in
class, just like gave me a firsthand experience seeing that, like how everything is a little bit
harder for those who don't have a home, don't have a car, can't, it's just like, you can't get
to the places you need to be unless you take public transportation and that might take
hours, so. What strengths did you learn or hear of from the people that you met here? Like
you're saying some of these challenges people are overcoming.
T
Taylor Mattrice 05:29
They're really resilient and strong, like, I don't know, I'm just thinking like, these people
don't have a home, they're sleeping on the street yet they come in here and they're happy
as can be. Maggie comes in here singing every day. It's just crazy to me that they can be
so upbeat and be so positive, fun things in their life aren't going the best.
S
Samantha Gibson
05:51
You mentioned that the the atmosphere here is a big part of what you may have not
expected necessarily, or, or what stood out to you. What makes you feel like people feel
welcome to the space do they feel welcome to the space? Do you have suggestions on
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 3 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
how people could be better welcomed,
T
Taylor Mattrice 06:12
I feel like people who come here consistently feel really welcome and they sit down and
talk with Katie, talk with us, they feel comfortable sitting there for an hour and just
chatting and obviously it's a nice space for them to have if they're willing to just sit there
and talk to you. And they're obviously comfortable with us in doing that. Obviously it’d be
nice to have a bigger space, which you're working on! So, that's not really anything you
can do here. I don't really have any suggestions. I think it's really cool to see the
relationships that Katie is formed with these people because I've heard, like, I don't know,
not firsthand, obviously, I don't know, but I think a lot of people have trouble trusting like
health care professionals and Katie's kind of serving as someone they can trust. Like, they
can come see Katie and ask her what she thinks and have her opinion when they go into
a doctor that maybe they don't trust as much as her and I think that's really cool.
07:11
S
Samantha Gibson
07:15
How would you suggest we could better accompany people on their journey of health? For
example, would adding more hours here being more available or adding outreach
services?
T
Taylor Mattrice 07:31
I don't know. I know, like adding hours would maybe help. But I think people just need like
they like having somewhere to come. Like I don't think it would necessarily help them with
their health journey. With what I've seen here. It would just give them somewhere to be
and someone to talk to, which I guess would maybe help with their health in the end. But
um, yeah, I don't know about that. I think outreach would be really cool. Which Katie does
that with Noah, and I see how much it's beneficial for him just to have someone who cares
and someone who's going to check on him. So maybe having more of that. I don't really
know. Like, Katie probably knows people that might need it. But I don't know how we
would go about finding them. And it's just hard. We searched for law for like an hour and a
half one day so.
Samantha Gibson
08:22
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 4 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
08:22
So you mentioned getting a better sense for the the things that people work through. And
the challenges they experience. How has this experience changed any biases you may
have had about people who are experiencing homelessness or marginally housed?
T
Taylor Mattrice 08:39
I think the class kind of did that for me to start. But this kind of solidified that. Growing up,
I grew up in a rich suburb and was always told like, Oh, you if you work hard, you can have
a home, you can have a job, you can have a good life. But I know now like obviously, that's
not true. These people work hard every day and are trying to do their best to get
themselves out of this hole and get themselves a home and a place to keep their kids.
There's just nothing they can do. So I guess that's kind of a bias that has gone away. Like I
know that even though they don't have homes, they are working hard to try and get them
and there's just factors that you can't control. That makes it so they can't be stable. You
know?
S
Samantha Gibson
09:31
What, if anything, will you take forward with you from your time here?
T
Taylor Mattrice 09:36
I think I, wanting to be a doctor, um, just watching Katie's interactions with them, it kind of
taught me about how I should treat patients. Honestly, like, she's just their friend first and
then she'll ask about their health, just in the middle of conversation and it's just nice to see
someone who genuinely cares about the person as well as their health. And, as a doctor,
that's what I'm going to try to do too.
S
Samantha Gibson
10:05
You pretty much alluded to my next question, but how has this experience impacted your
future career ideals or personal goals, not in just that interpersonal way?
T
Taylor Mattrice 10:16
Yeah.
Samantha Gibson
10:17
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 5 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
10:17
Is there another
T
Taylor Mattrice 10:18
Um, I mean, I could definitely see myself doing outreach to, I don't know, like, even in
Minneapolis, but like doing medical missions, maybe having my own sort of thing like just
seeing these people and the need they have for healthcare kind of gives me the idea that
I could maybe help them someday. I don’t know.
S
Samantha Gibson
10:43
What was the most valuable part of this experience for you, then?
T
Taylor Mattrice 10:46
Um, I mean that just getting to know people, I think, making relationships and learning
from everyone no matter what. Um, it's something that is always beneficial. Like, I didn't
really come in here thinking that I would learn as much as I did, but, like, every person I
talked to has some sort of, I don't know, not even necessarily they're teaching me, but just
like their attitude, their positivity, like gives me something to think about when I get
crabby about something dumb because they are happy as can be, and have much less
than me. So, just like being thankful for what I have and helping others as much as I can.
S
Samantha Gibson
11:29
Is there a specific story you could share that stuck with you? from your experience?
T
Taylor Mattrice 11:40
I mean, yeah, can I use names? I have been, but…
S
Samantha Gibson
11:45
Yeah, just not- not too particularly.
T
Taylor Mattrice 11:47
Yeah. The other day when Mercedes came in here with the foot issue. I don't know, she
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 6 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
had an infection in her foot. She came to show Katie and Katie was talking to her and I
just found out like she said she had a doctor's appointment like an hour later and Katie's
like, oh well, like why'd you come to me first? She's like, well, I just wanted to see what you
thought and like see what you thought about it and let you know. And, I guess that just
kind of stuck with me. She just wanted Katie to know because she was someone that she
trusted. She was someone that she knew, and she knew she was going to the doctor but
she wanted an opinion of someone who cared about her, rather than someone she didn't
really know anything about and that's awesome. Katie’s awesome.
S
Samantha Gibson
12:33
Is there anything that you think health Commons could do better? Is there anything
missing?
T
Taylor Mattrice 12:39
I don't think so. I mean, we take donations and do what we can with them, so like,
funding-wise, if they could get funding, I'm sure there are a lot of things that we could do.
But they are in the church, like they're gonna have a shower and I think that's really cool.
But how are they going to control that? The shower will be helpful, um. Just, maybe having
a doctor that came in, but you would need a volunteer. That would be nice. Like someone
who could actually, like, maybe, I don't know, like Katie can tell them what she thinks, but
she can't give them like, prescription for antibiotics, if that's what they need. Like maybe a
doctor that came in every once in a while… but that might not be super realistic.
S
Samantha Gibson
13:31
Was there something that could be better in regard to the volunteer experience?
T
Taylor Mattrice 13:36
No, I don't think so. I like the fact that we come in and we do it and then Katie always
makes sure to debrief with us after. Like, the debriefing helps a lot because if I'm confused
about something or something happened, she knows most of the things that go down, so
she can explain it. And then I can leave without, like thinking, I don't know, like worrying or
being confused. And I think that's really helpful, so keep doing that. Keep doing the
debriefing. I think she will.
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 7 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
14:05
Do you think moving forward, that you that volunteers have a good idea of what they're
getting themselves into when they come with scheduling for you easy?
T
Taylor Mattrice 14:16
Yeah, I just emailed Katie and basically said, I can come whenever I want. So, it's really
easy and really flexible and I'm sure if any day I was supposed to come and couldn't
anymore, she would not care. Um, I think coming into it, yeah. Usually, so when I was a
sophomore, I met with someone. It wasn't Katie, someone else from Health Commons,
because I was trying to start volunteering here. and they explained a lot to me then. And
I'm sure they do that every time. It was just like a weird start for me with the class and just
kind of getting thrown into it, which she did come to our class and explain it, but it's kind
of rushed, but I think they do a good job of letting people know like what it is, what they
should expect, and…
S
Samantha Gibson
15:08
is there anything else you want to add or a topic you want to discuss more?
T
Taylor Mattrice 15:13
I don't think so.
Oral History Interview with Taylor Mattice, Page
2018 8 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History Interview with Melinda
Dively-White, 2018
Tue, 3/9 9:40AM
26:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, people, augsburg, felt, dnp, health, experience, worked, part, rochester, person, possibly,
engage, attitude, thought, challenge, life, talk, volunteer, system
SPEAKERS
Melinda Dively... Show more
Oral History Interview with Melinda
Dively-White, 2018
Tue, 3/9 9:40AM
26:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, people, augsburg, felt, dnp, health, experience, worked, part, rochester, person, possibly,
engage, attitude, thought, challenge, life, talk, volunteer, system
SPEAKERS
Melinda Dively-White, Samantha Gibson
S
Samantha Gibson
00:01
Hello, my name is Samantha Gibson. I'm an AmeriCorps VISTA worker at health
comments. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
M
Melinda Dively-White
00:09
Hi, my name is Melinda Dively-White and I'm a DNP student.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:15
Thank you, I wanted to reaffirm that you consent to the storage and use of this recording
at Augsburg University, where it will be available to the public.
M
Melinda Dively-White
00:26
Yes. Thank you.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:28
Thank you. To get us started, could you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 1 of
2018
11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
who you called family?
M
Melinda Dively-White
00:35
Sure, I grew up in a small railroad town in Pennsylvania and in my family we have a twin
sister and my parents had us when they were 18. So, it was my mom, my dad, my sister
and then we lived very closely, actually literally next door, to my grandparents, my mom's
parents. So, when I refer to family, that's who I would think of when I was younger. But we
have a large extended family that lived in the same area.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:12
Great, thank you. How did you end up at Augsburg University, then?
M
Melinda Dively-White
01:17
Oh, that’s kind of a long trip! But I’ve been- we moved out of Pennsylvania when I was
about 9 or 10 to get jobs, because the factories in the town were laying people off and
jobs were scarce. So we moved actually down to Carolina. Just- we moved up and down
the East Coast and we got our- my sister and I went to school for nursing. We got our
undergrad in a Tennessee and then we worked for several years here in Minnesota and,
um, both pursued a master's degree and when we were talking recently, there were a lot
of changes going on in the world that we weren't necessarily happy about and I started
looking at different programs that would help me understand a little bit more and be able
to speak about things were bothering me. Um, and I felt like there were a lot of people in
the world that don't get a really strong voice and so I wanted to learn a little bit more
about transcultural type, um, education and learning and helping you see things from
different perspectives. And so, um, Augsburg was the school that had that as a program,
and so then I started to pursue the DNP in transcultural leadership. So, it was kind of a
long journey, but I actually didn't see myself going back to school for my doctorate. The
only thing that actually led me to do that, um, was because of the program that Augsburg
had.
S
Samantha Gibson
02:45
I'm sorry, could you repeat that last part?
M
Melinda Dively-White
02:46
The only reason I actually went back to school for my doctorate, cause I felt like after my
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 2 of
2018
11
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master's I was- I was done, um, was the fact that there were a lot of things that were going
on that I didn't think were right. And it was actually the specific program at Augsburg, that
transcultural leadership, that really, um, really drew me- threw me in. So that's- that's
where I got to the Augsburg.
S
Samantha Gibson
03:12
Okay, it's really great to understand your motivation from that. How did that motivation,
and- and this program lead you to become involved with Health Commons?
M
Melinda Dively-White
03:23
The Health Commons was one of the areas that we could visit for practical hours, but it
was also something that, um, well I was very interested in. They start asking you, like even
in the interview, about what you would want to do possibly for, um, your DNP project and I
had, you know, several different ideas and one of them was to do something within the
actual public health or in- in the community itself, um, because my master's I did within
the area that I worked. And so I really- I was drawn to, you know, if I'm gonna be doing
something in the program that's transcultural, the best place in my mind to possibly do
that would be within the community itself. And the Commons seemed like a great area to
go, where it's something within the community and was something that- that I knew was
possibly a need in Rochester. So, um, I talked with Katie and she said, well come on, come
visit the Commons, so I went to the Commons. I've been there twice now.
S
Samantha Gibson
04:29
Cool, and what can you tell me about those two visits you've experienced at Health
Commons?
M
Melinda Dively-White
04:35
Um, I would like to- I would actually like to go back once they go back into the church,
because both of my experiences were in the trailer, so we were limited on what we- what
we could also do. Foot care is something that I would still like to be a part of but um. Both
visits I really enjoyed that connection- being able to connect with people, you know, in a
way that is just genuine. You know, this is real life it's not- when people come into the
hospital they're outside of their own environment, so they're coming into a new
environment. So, the people that you see there- it's a different side of them, a different
rawness, a feeling of out of control, outside of their own environment, and so when you
see them, when you see people in the Commons, um, there's also a rawness to it, it's just a
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 3 of
2018
11
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different kind of rawness. And there’s still things outside of their control, but you're- the
Commons is such a unique area that it does create this- when people come in, it's- it's not
this is our turf, you know, we're not going in as experts, we're welcoming them into a
space that is a shared space. It's their space just as much as it is our space, and I think
that that was a very deliberate thing that they try to do in the Commons that I felt. So Ithat was one of the first things I noticed was there were no barriers, people come in and
they come up and you can talk right to them, they're, you know, you're not standing up or
if you are you're at the same level as them. You’re not- there isn’t this looking down on
you, you know, your physical movements…just the way things are very deliberate to- for a
welcoming environment and I think that- that was a very nice and refreshing thing for me
to see.
S
Samantha Gibson
06:26
Absolutely, I think you're speaking to, you know, what Health Commons aims to do. Did
your experience at Health Commons fit or challenge your expectations of what it would
be?
M
Melinda Dively-White
06:38
I just- I think it did a little bit of both, actually, I know that sounds a little strange, but, you
know, going in I wasn't sure exactly what to expect so I had some ideas in my mind and so
it met the openness that I was expecting. I think what challenged me was, I've, even
though, I- we grew up very poor and, but we always had a lot- you know, quite a bit of
support from friends and family around us. And then, um, and then I didn't have a lot of
experience with homelessness. We did, in our undergraduate work, we did do a semester
where we went into a soup kitchen and we, um, talked with people that were experiencing
homelessness and that included families. So that was the most exposure that I had with
people experiencing homelessness. So, then it was pretty limited, you know, like people
that you see on the streets, kind of going around, or…it's just not the same level of
engagement. And so going back in there, it was challenging to me again to think, wow, I'm
in a big city here but I know this is- this happens in Rochester and I'm not- I'm not aware
of it or I'm not acknowledging it or engaging the way that I feel like I should. So in a way it
was challenging to me and that I felt convicted in a sense, if that makes sense, you know,
we get caught up in our own things and get busy and, um, we just don't- there's just not
that level of awareness that I felt like I should have. So, that was my level of challenge.
S
Samantha Gibson
08:17
Okay. How well do you think your experience at Health Commons relates to what you
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 4 of
2018
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were learning in your program?
M
Melinda Dively-White
08:27
Oh, I think it was- for me personally, I felt like it fit really well into what, um, what we're
learning in our program. Especially, the second visit I had was with 802, um, and, for me,
802, I've enjoyed both of my main classes so far, but 802 really, um, it's that, you know,
going in and learning things from the academic sense but then actually seeing it and
experiencing it that full, you know, the whole sensory combination is really- it kind of
integrates with your soul, you know what I mean? It just um, it just kinda just gets to
become a part of you. And so, for me, I really feel like it was a good connection. I really
like the immersions, I feel like it's a very important part of Augsburg and I- I really hope
that they continue to do the immersions and that it actually could possibly be expanded.
So, that's just my personal opinion, though.
S
Samantha Gibson
09:35
Do you have any suggestions for how we can better accompany people on their journey of
health? You know, either logistically- so things like adding more hours or outreach
services, or even by attitude?
M
Melinda Dively-White
09:39
H-mm I think- I think attitude is a big one, that's a big question to answer. I guess when
you say we, are you thinking like, as people? As Augsburg? As students? As…who's the we,
or can we just pick which we we wanna be?
S
Samantha Gibson
09:39
Uh, Health Commons, or the nurses, really, you can pick the we.
M
Melinda Dively-White
09:50
I think I think attitude is a big one. That's a big question to answer. We are you thinking
like As people as Augsburg as students says, who's the weak? Or can we just pick? Which
one Okay. Um, I think, as a humanity itself, overall, the big picture, I would say, it's a heart
issue, um that we need to really change our hearts and our attitudes and acknowledge,
first of all, that we’re humans. That we’re all humans, no matter what and where you're at,
what position you hold, as a human being with a life. So, um, but then to get more
granular, I think, as nurses in the health care setting, I think it's that, you know, we work so
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
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hard to learn things that we can help other people but sometimes we forget that people
bring so much to the table and we might say this is what's going on with you and yes, that
might be an issue but if we just narrow them down just to that diagnosis, we're missing so
many other things that's impacting that diagnosis. So, someone could come in with an
issue, but they've got five other things that are more important to them personally and if
we don't understand and engage with what- engage them in the conversation and let
them be a part of that conversation and leave that conversation, um, and us to truly listen,
I think we're- we're gonna miss a lot. And I think that's where when we talk about services,
you know, it's really hard to talk about services in the sense that everything- we want to
regulate everything, you know, we want to control everything because, you know, it costs
something or this net, but when we're talking about services if we don’t- if we don't have
that first right attitude and heart and- and then include the people, the services aren't
going to mean anything. And we're not going to have those responses that- that the most,
or the best outcomes, if you wanna say from the technical sense, but, um, best response
engagement for the people I don't know if that made sense but, um, that's kind of where I
see it.
S
Samantha Gibson
12:23
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think that's really insightful. Can you elaborate a little bit
on what strengths you learned or heard from the people that you met?
M
Melinda Dively-White
12:33
Resiliency is huge. I- um, one of the people that I met and I was able to talk to for an
extended period of time, I kept thinking to myself, oh, you know, this- this could have been
me. This- I- this- this is like, you feel like, wow I'm so lucky because I- this very much could
have- this could have been me. I still stammer when I talk about it because it was one of
those aha moments for me, where I think if I didn't have the support that I have, the
support system that I have, I would- that could have- the situation that this person was in
would have been a real, real possibility for me. And, the fact that this person wanted to
have their life turned around and was doing all the things that they were supposed to do
within the system that was before them, um, but yet every time they tried- they got to a
certain point, they kind of got kicked back down by something that was in system that
wasn’t inside their control. So you get to this point where you have to make a decision, do
I want to live or do I want to follow the system? And for some people and that's just not
fair, I mean, what- how- what would you want to do, you want to live or do you wanna
remain in this, um, you know, constrained reality? And, um, so this person’s resiliency was
just amazing, and the attitude that they had because they decided, you know what? If I
cannot do- if I cannot succeed within the system that's before me, and for this person it
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
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2018
11
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was a job, and this was a person that had skills and was educated and was willing to take
a position that was lower than what they were possibly able to do, but because of
medical reasons was not able to remain in that position because of the cost of insurance.
So, um, it was either get the assistance that they needed to get the health care coverage
they needed to survive or, you know, elevate themselves but possibly die because they
couldn't get, you know, pay for the cost of care that they needed. And so they chose to
volunteer regularly, um, and I thought, oh, here's a person that is contributing to society,
that is, um, doing that in spite of all these other things and the system that has worked
against them repeatedly and they still had a really positive attitude about it. And I just
thought to myself, what- how would I react with this? How would I respond? So that- thatthat really stuck with me.
S
Samantha Gibson
15:20
Thank you, that's really powerful. You definitely touched on this but if you could distill your
knowledge: what if anything, will you be taking forward with you from this experience?
M
Melinda Dively-White
15:31
Uh, I think for me, what I'm gonna take forward- what I hope to take forward and then I
hope to continue to do for the rest of my life is listen and truly listen, because, you know,
you get so used to thinking, I need to do this, I need to do this, I need to do this, but
without listening, you know, what will it do anything? You know, it’s just like shooting
things in the dark, you're not gonna hit the target if you don't- if you don't know what it is
and you're gonna learn the target by listening then people around you. So it's not- it's not
just about me, it's about all of us together, you know. What I do impacts person next to me
and we all- we all are connected.
S
Samantha Gibson
16:15
Has this experience impacted your future career ideals or your personal goals?
M
Melinda Dively-White
16:21
Mmm, that's a good question. I think so. I have to- you know, like, there's this practical
part of me that says, you know, I've been working at a certain place for almost 20 years so
there's that practical side of me that’s like, you know, I'd like to stay within that part of the
institution so that I can get retirement and so that I'm not, you know, struggling as I- when
I get older but there's the other part of me that- that is saying well, is there something
within that- that I can use those skills and apply those things and help. But I'd also like to,
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 7 of
2018
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um, volunteer, um, part of my DNP project is to hopefully open a, with a group of other
students, Health Commons within Rochester, so I'm very much hope to see that come to
become a reality and I would like to be a part of that going forward. Um, and then I would
also- I'm also interested in possibly teaching, if possible, hopefully I would have something
to contribute. So yes it has, I just don't know for sure in what ways, I know I have ideas but
again my ideas doesn’t necessarily mean, what, that that's- that's what it's going to be.
S
Samantha Gibson
17:40
Definitely some drives there. I want to know what your hopes for the Health Commons in
Rochester, if that can come to fruition, what would that look like or what do you- what do
you hope it fills?
M
Melinda Dively-White
17:56
I think it would- there's- for me, when I- as I've started looking around at things and
exploring town, um, there's a Rochester I thought I knew and then there's the Rochester
that's behind it that I didn’t- that wasn't aware of, so I'd like to see that gap get tight,
closed, you know, be shorter or smaller, that more of awareness that's out- out there for
more people because I think, you know, like I said earlier, we get so caught up in our lives
that we forget what's all around us, um, so I think that's one thing I would like to see is
that awareness be extended. I guess I would also like to see, um, I can't say what I want
the Health Commons necessarily do or be just yet, I know that I want it to be a place that
is welcoming. So for me, that- that I would like to mimic that open and welcomed attitude
that I felt when I went to the Commons in the cities but aside from that I think it's, you
know, I think we're gonna go in with the idea of let's welcome people and do this, this, and
this, to help engage in the conversation and, but in reality, I think what's gonna happen is,
we start to see people or meet with people and talk, that what they need might be very
different than what is, and that's what we really need listen to and focus on and, um, you
know, engage the people there and have them be a part of that process and maybe lead
that process, and letting us know what is it that the community needs, what is it that
people that are struggling or experiencing challenges in their life- what is the most
meaning to them? Is it connectedness, is it being a part of something, is it membership,
um, is it, you know, I struggle with this, I just need a stronger support system, what does
that look like, what does that mean to you? So it's those kinds of things that I think it's
gonna take time and- and truly- and just really listening.
S
Samantha Gibson
20:07
From your perspective, what do you think the Health Commons could do better, is there
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 8 of
2018
11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
something missing?
M
Melinda Dively-White
20:13
I think in the cities, right now, they're just- they're just, um, that space issue because of
being frailer so I think they'll be very happy to be able to get back into the church. So
that- but I don't think- that's outside of their control and I think the relationship that's
been developed there is a pretty significant one and I- so, I think it’d just be continue to
focus on- on people, continuing to engage in what it is that you think that they, you know,
that, um, not that you think but what they are telling you, what is it they’re saying,
continue to engage in those conversations, to ask those questions. Cause, you know, it
could change over time, you know, everything's changing so quickly that, you know, we
have to be a part of that. But I like- I like, too, that the Commons is welcoming and I like
that there's that, um, level engagement of like, this is your responsibility, it's my
responsibility- it's- it's our- all of us contribute and it's- we're all a part of it, I hope- I think
that there's more way more positives and I think that the improvement would be just
continuing to keep that- keep your focus.
S
Samantha Gibson
21:33
That’s some good perspective. Is there anything that could have been better in regard to
your volunteer experience?
M
Melinda Dively-White
21:41
Oh, no, I don't think so. It was, was very positive. For me. It was enlightening, I guess, is a
good word for it.
S
Samantha Gibson
21:53
Is there a specific story that you could share that stuck with you from your experience at
Health Commons?
M
Melinda Dively-White
21:59
Well, that one still really stood out for me, the one that I talked- when I was talking about
the- the person that had to choose, you know, basically between living and climbing the
system. That one will stay with me forever, I think, um, another one that- that really stood
out to me was a person that came in and- and that they asked for their blood pressure to
be taken so I took their blood pressure and it was high and then we just started talking
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
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2018
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about things that were going on in their life and what they did and this person
volunteered quite a bit actually, volunteered at the church, and was very active and, um,
was actually, um, yeah I'm blanking on the word. He was the pastor and was… not
christened…he was supported or, um, reached a certain level, I can't remember now, I'm
sorry, but he was talking about one of his- when he experienced something where
someone came up to him and said, I just saw you or I just saw you in this vision and then I
saw you with this certain gown on and you were doing this, that, and you were succeeding
and you were talking to other people and so, um, he was kind of sharing- saying with me
you wanna- I felt like it was a cultural belief, that, um, you know, you kind of visualize
something or someone can see this vision about you, um, and he- he truly believed it and
embraced it and- and very much so, he actually- he is a pastor and he is helping people
and actively working to, you know, help others out of situations, you know, he still have
struggles and he still has challenges in his life, but he's out there trying to help other
people in a spiritual way and physically and, um, he- I admired his heart. He had a true
passion and love for those around him and he thought more about others than he did
about the situation that he might be challenged by or experiencing.
S
Samantha Gibson
24:19
Thank you Is, is there anything else that you'd like to add that we didn't ask about or a
topic you'd like to discuss a little more?
M
Melinda Dively-White
24:27
Um, I guess I think I would just like to say that at Health Commons it was clear to me that
the relationship that over time has been developed, you know, there was a level of trust
that I think was clear, um, and it's not an easy thing to do when- when there’re people are
experiencing really difficult challenging situations in their life and so I think for me that
was something that was really hopeful and I hope to see that that's something in more
places across our country so, um, I just want to always wanted to highlight that and I think
that the hearts and the commitments that of all the people that I've met there that are
regularly involved is really wonderful but there's just not a good- just not strong enough
word. I think it's just, um, I don’t want to say admirable because it's- it's clearly not
something that- it should be something that we all have, um, but they're actually doing it,
so I would say I applaud them for that. But I think it's that thanks for opening up my eyes
and, um, just that, um, engaging, so I just- thank you, is the best way to say it. I'm
rambling…so, but it's a great place. I think, I really hope that we can build that kind of
relationship here.
Samantha Gibson
26:15
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 10 2018
of 11
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S
Samantha Gibson
26:15
Yeah. It's helpful to see an example of something like that.
M
Melinda Dively-White
26:20
Yeah.
S
Samantha Gibson
26:21
Well, thank you for joining me today.
M
Melinda Dively-White
26:25
I really enjoyed it. Thank you so much for inviting me.
Oral History Interview with Melinda Dively-White,
Page 11 2018
of 11
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Show less
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand,
2018
Tue, 3/9 5:08PM
30:55
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, community, health, commons, nursing, augsburg, augsburg college, comments, care,
question, nurses, money, bev, church, grew, health care, part, resources, medical care, hear
SPEAKERS
Samantha ... Show more
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand,
2018
Tue, 3/9 5:08PM
30:55
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, community, health, commons, nursing, augsburg, augsburg college, comments, care,
question, nurses, money, bev, church, grew, health care, part, resources, medical care, hear
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, June Sand
S
Samantha Gibson
00:00
Hello, my name is Samantha Gibson, and I'm an AmeriCorps VISTA worker at health
commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
J
June Sand
00:07
Hello, I'm June Sand.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:11
And you volunteer,
J
June Sand
00:13
volunteer at the health commons at Central Lutheran Church and also a member of the
congregation and I'm a nurse, a registered nurse.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:22
Thank you for joining me today and the oral history project. Before we begin, I would just
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 1 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
like to confirm that your consent to being interviewed and having that interview recording
stored at Augsburg University, where it will be made available to the public.
J
June Sand
00:34
I do.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:36
I just want to make a side note also about the noise here. We're doing this interview at
health commons. So if there's some background noise, that would be why to get us
started, could you tell me a little bit about yourself, like where you grew up and who you
called family.
J
June Sand
00:51
I grew up in Des Moines, Iowa. My father with my father and my mother and my brother.
My father was a hospital chaplain at Iowa Methodist Hospital, a Methodist pastor. My
mom is a retired school teacher and she stayed home with my brother and I and we grew
up there went to grade school, junior high in high school. I was there till I went to college.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:16
What led you to want to be a nurse?
J
June Sand
01:19
I cannot remember a day I did not want to be a nurse. I think because I tag came my
father around the hospital all the time. Um, it was very familiar territory to me and had my
own little doll hospital when I was little and in high school and college worked at Iowa,
Methodist Hospital and surgery. So I just something I've always thought would be the right
spot for me.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:48
You mentioned college. Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background?
J
June Sand
01:52
Yes, I went to St. Olaf College in Northfield, Minnesota and therefore your nursing
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 2 of 13
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program. We spent a year and a half on campus and our rest of our time up here in the
Twin Cities working at Fairview southdale and the Veterans Hospital.
S
Samantha Gibson
02:10
And so how did you come to start working or volunteering at the health commons?
J
June Sand
02:17
Well, my husband grew up at Central Lutheran Church. He has been a member there since
he was three. And when we, when he and I started going there back in the ladder, early
2000s, I needed to find my spot in the community there and went downstairs and found
out about the health comments. And Bev Nillson was, was running in at the time. She was
a professor from Augsburg College. And at the time, she hadn't used any volunteers from
church in that department. And so I gave her my name and address and told her, I'd be
more than willing to help. And she said she'd think about it. And the next thing I knew I
had a phone call from her saying that she needed some vacation time would I take over
at that point, we were doing Sunday services from the health commons as well as during
the week. And so I would help her when she needed someone to take over and be
responsible for that. health commons. Since grown from there, I've been there ever since.
S
Samantha Gibson
03:27
What were some of your initial impressions.
J
June Sand
03:29
So my initial impressions were that this was a wonderful, a wonderful way to be able to
serve the community that people from community were coming in for help and aid and
receiving and in a number of ways from the restoration center and that they health
commons was extremely important first introduction to health care in the Twin Cities.
S
Samantha Gibson
04:04
And when was it that you get with
J
June Sand
04:08
2001?
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
04:11
What do you remember about the beginnings of the health commons?
J
June Sand
04:15
It was a little different. In the beginning, we didn't have any money. It was a reciprocal
agreement. As I recall between the church and Augsburg College, the church provided the
space, the electricity, the heat, and then in return, Augsburg college provided a professor
and students who came over to work with people that it was to be a nursing center
specifically, and that it came from a nursing perspective, not a medical perspective. And
we would really go around and recruit people to help us get travel items from people or
white socks. If we hand it out how hygiene items, as people came into the clinical area,
they were more apt to come in and begin to know us and then sit down and speak with us.
For a lot of people, it was off putting medical care, they were concerned because it
represented the government and control of who they were following them, like with
vaccines, or mammograms or regular health care, so they tended to skirt away from that.
So that's why it wasn't the beginning, much smaller, a lot less people. And as time has
gone along, now, over the last 18 years, grown tremendously, and the number of people
that come in, and we've gotten much more sophisticated, we have money that was given
us as a grant. And we have the ability now to keep our supplies on a regular basis and
ordered and socks, and the ability that that way to reach out to people on it consistent
basis.
S
Samantha Gibson
06:08
So you mentioned sort of the philosophy that it started with about being less about
medical care and more about nursing care. Do you remember much else about why it was
started, or Bev Nilsson's or others ideas, as it was initially started?
J
June Sand
06:24
As I recall, and again, I'm part of the church, not part of the college. But that Bev had this
idea, and it provided a spot where the nursing students who are finishing their Bachelor of
Science degrees could come and get their community and public health, part of that
experience, as well as providing a resource to the community from Augsburg College. She
knew someone from the church and they made this agreement and it worked well. And
that's how that's how it started. She engaged the nursing department at Augsburg, and
they began to send students over on a regular basis.
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 4 of 13
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S
Samantha Gibson
07:18
You mentioned that you began volunteering in 2001. What keeps you coming back?
J
June Sand
07:23
I find that first of all, we've gotten to know a lot of the community down here, people
come on a regular basis for mental health care, for addiction care for just support from
the community. And I don't know I worked early in my career in community health in the
tobacco fields in North Carolina, and that I've always had a heart for people that were
searching and trying to get into healthcare system and helping them understand that
and, and have that available. And so I and also this, the staff that I work with here from
Augsburg College have been tremendous. The head of the department of the health
Commons has changed several times. And each time has been somebody else, you know,
dedicated to the community and healthcare in downtown Minneapolis. And it's been a
privilege to serve beside them and provide this care to the community.
S
Samantha Gibson
08:38
What's your favorite part of being part of the community at the Augsburg Central Health
Commons?
J
June Sand
08:44
I'll tell you a good story. I've had done I've done for quite a while and in the last six years
to have had some health issues of my own. And one of the members of the health
commons, one of the community members that has had all kinds of wonderful things
happen in their life. Partially because of Bev Nillson and then within a set and Linda Holt
has come to be a stable member of the community and lives in housing not too far from
me in section eight housing. And when I got sick, I woke up one morning it was during the
summer there she was in my front yard. she rode her bike every day to my home to
garden for my husband and I and I just thought, oh my goodness, because it was
dedicated effort on her part, you know, to be able to get there and it just was like,
sometimes we don't see a lot of wonderful success stories. Sometimes we see people that
do do better than they did ever but this lady has Just ban America. And it really touched
my heart to have somebody to do that back from him, not us.
S
Samantha Gibson
10:08
It's a really beautiful story.
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 5 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
June Sand
10:09
I know, it was just amazing.
S
Samantha Gibson
10:15
Speaking of how do you develop relationships with people who come in to the health
common space?
J
June Sand
10:23
Well, you have to have a sense of, I feel like you have to have a sense of not being rushed,
of engaging them just many times for several times that they come in on a very open and
beginning status of, Hey, hi. What's your day like today? I try not to ask How are you?
Because obviously, they're seeking our services there, their days probably aren't terrific.
But what's going to happen next? Do you have somewhere to go for lunch, you know, just
those beginning questions. knowing their names, getting to know their names and having
them know mine. And then as time goes along, kind of make a scenario where they can sit
down, you can actually have a little bit lengthier discussion with them and and to know
them better. Some people is easier with than others. Some, it takes just one or two visits,
and you're right there with them on others, it will take a year or two before you make
some kind of little bit of niche through that. Armor have tried to protect themselves, stay
out of trouble.
S
Samantha Gibson
11:43
How do you create a sense of hospitality in providing care?
J
June Sand
11:49
Well, to be welcoming, to not be overly what's the word I want overly cheerful, or you
know, just to be a normal person walking them into this area of space, and letting them
know what surfaces are available available through you. Letting them know what the
little handbook that we have that talks about the services offered in this idea of
Minneapolis, where they can go to make sure they have three meals a day, hopefully,
where they can find shelter at night, where they can get health care where they can get
clothing with, you know, not all at once, but just moving along with them at their own
pace, so that they know that they're welcome, then they know that Oh, when they come in
the door, I know who should I know who that nurses, I can, you know, ask her questions,
the hospitality of having hot coffee or hot tea room, you know, come sit down, get your
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 6 of 13
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feet soak in while you're working on their feet or talking to him. You know, having a
chance to sometimes talking about sports, sometimes talk about books, sometimes talk
about, you know, a variety of issues on a daily basis, something which they don't get a lot
of people don't talk to them with a normal agenda. It's often Who are you? Why are you
here? What do you want? Where are you going? You know, and not just treating them as a
regular person who has joys in their days sometimes and negative things other times?
S
Samantha Gibson
13:30
How do you acknowledge the needs of people who come into the health commons?
J
June Sand
13:36
as well, for myself, first, I listen. And then I try to repeat back to all my hair, you saying
you're hungry, I hear you're saying you need a shower, I hear you saying you can't get your
Medicaid, you know, repeating back to them and then trying to get some priority of the
needs. And then we make we've made a lot of phone calls. There's been times that we
have helped people get to their appointments. If you're homeless and you need a
colonoscopy, you have to have a driver, they won't do it and let you get on a bus and they
won't allow you into the hospital for care without somebody to discharge you to. And so
providing occasionally we can't do that all the time, but the people to be able to help with
that or to do that. Nice to have the church surrounding this health comments. The church
itself because bias is clothing closet and people with cell phones from this city giving out
cell phones, people that help with job searches, you know, people with mental health care,
we can make referrals to that or walk with that person in there. Because sometimes
there's a fear of approaching somebody
S
Samantha Gibson
15:01
What are some of the strengths that you see in the people who visit the health commons?
J
June Sand
15:06
They're mighty and resilient considering what's happened. strengths you know, at
Christmas you'll hit as people are waiting in the clothes and the line to get to the clothes
closet, you'll hear them burst into song. They'll be singing Christmas carols or, or you're
overhear somebody say, Well, I have two bus tokens here, take one of mine, you know
that they're very generous for the most part with each other. It's been very rarely that I've
seen violence. We do have a full time security staff. But very, that's very rare. We have a
mixture of people from all races, all religions, all backgrounds, and they may choose not
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to engage with some people, but they'll come down in part of the community. I forgot
what you said the question.
S
Samantha Gibson
16:00
The question is what was about strengths?
J
June Sand
16:05
The strengths in the community that they that they'll take the time to look for help, that
they want to support their children. Sometimes it takes a long time. How do I get to the
AA group, I want to look at, I want to look at my addictions and stop that. Level
commerce strikes from their parents, we have one mentally ill man who saw visions and
had problems with voices that he heard. And since he was in his 30s, since he'd been a
child, his mother who couldn't afford health care for him for mental health, had said
repeatedly and over and over and over to him in a voice that you hear do not look like
they say, skinny boys that you hear do not do what they say. And he he repeated that in
his mind over and over and over. And, and that's how he dealt with it until the kid actually
get into a system. To me, those are the kinds of strengths where people look for what they
have. They help them succeed.
S
Samantha Gibson
17:11
I think you spoke to this a little bit, but how do you accompany people on their journey of
health at the health commons?
J
June Sand
17:17
Well, by being there by being in it, for me, I'm in the church a lot for other purposes. And if I
see him in the hallway, or somewhere, I always try to take the time to stop and talk to him
and call him by name and introduce them to somebody else. So that they don't see
themselves as just part of the restoration community that they see themselves as a full
human that just like you would if I had a friend with me, or somebody else with me,
introduced other people in the community in that and not say, Oh, this is someone so they
come to the restoration center, you know, this is someone selling they're visiting our
church today, that kind of thing. Reach out to people that way or downtown. Sometimes I
see people downtown, you know, on the corner or collecting money and I stop and and
greet them and say hi and try to call them by name and remind them to come back over
to the restoration center, you know, that look forward to seeing him again. Other people
only see occasionally, but always, always, always that they're welcome and that they're a
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part of the community.
S
Samantha Gibson
18:34
What is something you think could improve the health commons?
J
June Sand
18:40
What could improve the health commons? Well, considering the amount of money, the
hygiene items we give out, and the time we have to sit down with people and talk about
their care, the nice thing will be when we have our new space is to have a private area
again, where we can take people aside and talk to them about specific health concerns.
Do a little more in depth teaching maybe about diabetes, or high blood pressure or, or
how when you're out and about it, eating and eating three times a day at a place that
offers meals you know how to manage your health, because often those meals aren't the
kind of meals that are best in your health condition. balance that with enough staff to do
that enough students enough money to buy the items we need to hand out to people. But
I'm fully invested in how this community has run and don't see that it needs to have a lot
of dramatic changes made. So I apologize, I gotta get my stuff.
S
Samantha Gibson
20:04
Is there any other hopes that you have for the new space,
J
June Sand
20:08
hopes for the new space. just that that people will feel welcome and comfortable there.
And that the whole community from that serves the restoration center will have the the
clothing and the space and extra services they have for people as well as what the health
comments can contribute. I think it will only increase our ability to work well and more
efficiently. And I don't know until it's open and gets going exactly what it what that all that
will look like. But I think it will be positive.
S
Samantha Gibson
20:58
Given that you're not sure how it might look, a few months we move back this question
might be tough. But what do you think the health commons should be like 20 years from
now?
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
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J
June Sand
21:13
Well, I hope it doesn't become institutionalized, that continues to be a place where people
feel safe and come in and have can have, can ask any question they want to and be, you
know, and be served that Augsburg College in the church will continue to have a good
relationship so that the professors are able to come over and invest their time and their
resources and work with the students over here. The gift of students is amazing, because
the chance to introduce them to this part of the community. And the needs that are so
deep may be the first and only time and they're just the education that they actually see
that on site. And and may target their hearts and settle into their mind so that no matter
what situation they're dealing with, as nurses, they'll look at that person, maybe in the
hospital and realize this is somebody from the community and they're going to be
discharged not home, but back to the streets. And what does that mean, and what's
available? And, you know, what resources can they draw. And I think that I'd like in 20
years to see that part of it grow. And like I said that it continues to be available. It's really
easy to cut services. We hope that that won't happen. I think it's good for the community
to although we serve everybody. And we let the students see where we're serving people
of all different ethnic backgrounds, all different religious backgrounds, all different need
backgrounds, and you know that the acceptance of meeting someone where they are,
and listening to what they have to say, is really important. And they don't often get time
to sit and listen.
S
Samantha Gibson
23:21
What should nurses know, when taking care of people who may be experiencing
homelessness or who are marginally housed,
J
June Sand
23:27
it's helpful to know what's available in the community what the resources are, and
Minneapolis and St. Paul has been very good about that with the booklet that they
produce about living on the streets. He showed that those are available or that somebody
can get to a computer to find the services that they need.
S
Samantha Gibson
23:52
And my question was, what should nurses know?
J
June Sand
23:54
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 10 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
What do they need to know what resources are available? They need to not be afraid of
dealing with segment and community because some people are very fearful that
something will happen to them that that they feel comfortable that they have the chance
to sit down and talk one on one and hear people's stories that they learned to not be
judgmental, that a variety of things along that line that allows the person that comes in
that already homeless or living marginally. And feel embarrassed to begin with or don't
want to ask questions or for more or afraid to, you know, letting them feel safe ness in this
community and places where they can go and get the help that they need.
S
Samantha Gibson
24:49
What are some of the challenges you have heard most regarding people's ability to
access health care
J
June Sand
24:59
act says healthcare, well, money, insurance feeling judged, when they go into an
emergency room, medication find to keep their medication on a regular basis, things,
dressing changes, physical therapy, all of that just doesn't feel available to people on the
streets. And again, that comes from a basis of no money to pay for the dental care. So
S
Samantha Gibson
25:44
what are other typical health concerns you might encounter when you're caring for
participants of the commons?
J
June Sand
25:51
Well, I think I mentioned that earlier, like just a route to teen medical care wouldn't be
routine physicals, there wouldn't be probably the follow through with the same doctors,
because often their care is either urgent care, or emergency room care. The inability to
follow through with therapies that are like mental health counseling or addiction groups
or diabetic care, that, middle class Americans know as a fairly secure healthcare system
just isn't available to these people. Even if they do have some help from the state, it's
difficult to get appointments. And like I said, difficult to keep the same providers, difficult
to get the transportation to get to the appointments, difficult to not have your medication
stolen out of your backpack while you're sleeping at night and shelter, trying to raise your
children and get their vaccines and follow through on the healthcare edit. Timely situation
is difficult. So that's the things.
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 11 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
27:21
I have one more question. I'm just personally curious. You mentioned that, you know, using
a nursing model here may be better. It's less intimidating. It's not institutionalized medical
care. In what other ways might nursing care be an appropriate fit for this context or
beneficial, I want to know what what values of nursing you think I'm most embedded here?
J
June Sand
27:48
Well, there's part of our community that is afraid of healthcare, and has never had any
legitimate resources from health care. So they just totally avoided. What a nursing model
does is allow not a diagnosis, or not the dispensing of the medication, or not the orders to
follow through on physical care with that first step to say come in. You are a whole person,
we recognize you as that. We welcome you tell us your story. Tell us your story. And let us
work with you. work with you to set up a plan of beginning to develop some kind of health
resources for you. Now, in some cases, that's more urgent than others that may walk with
you. You know, let me listen, let me offer these suggestions to help your swollen legs or
you know, get getting your legs up at night or where you can go to get a shower because
you have sores that are a problem. just beginning to say, Come in, come in, we care about
you, your love somewhere you're cared about somewhere. And as they begin to accept
that then you can broaden out into where you send them or go or where they might want
to be. If they walk directly into a medical model. It's to me a diagnosis, a list of things that
they have to do, you know, to get better and it doesn't really have time or the ability to
incorporate all their barriers, barriers. We nurses tend to have the at least the ability and if
that's our intent, and the purpose of what we're doing is set that way. Then we begin To
reach people that are, have not been reached. Thank you.
S
Samantha Gibson
30:07
Is there anything else that you want to bring up? Talk about share with us? I
J
June Sand
30:14
can't think of anything right now. Just have always appreciated the effort that Augsburg
puts into the community. And again, this just being one segment of it, but that, that the
health commons. Working with the Restoration Center at Central Lutheran Church has
reached a part of the community in downtown Minneapolis that otherwise might well
have never had any kind of contact and care.
Samantha Gibson
30:44
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 12 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
30:44
Thank you for being with me.
J
June Sand
30:47
You're welcome. Those are I'm going to go home and say didn't I say this?
Oral History Interview with June A. Sand, 2018
Page 13 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History Interview with Katherine
Baumgartner, 2018
Tue, 3/9 5:07PM
51:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, nursing, model, learn, dnp, students, space, support, oxford, department, taught, care,
class, profound, nurses, comments, augsburg, attending, part, bsn
SPEAKERS
Katherine Baumgartne... Show more
Oral History Interview with Katherine
Baumgartner, 2018
Tue, 3/9 5:07PM
51:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, nursing, model, learn, dnp, students, space, support, oxford, department, taught, care,
class, profound, nurses, comments, augsburg, attending, part, bsn
SPEAKERS
Katherine Baumgartner, Kaija Freborg, Kathleen Clark
K
Kaija Freborg 00:00
Hello, my name is Kaija Freborg. And for the recording I just want to recognize that Katie
Clark is also here with us today. Hello, could you please introduce yourself for the
recording?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 00:12
Katherine Baumgartner
K
Kaija Freborg 00:13
Thank you for joining us today in this world history project. Before we begin, I would like to
confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having that interview recording stored
at Augsburg University, which will we will make available to the public and do so to get us
started, can you tell us about yourself such as Where did you grow up? And who do you
call family?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 00:41
I grew up I grew up in Minnesota. And I grew up in a couple different towns St. Louis Park
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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in Minnetonka. And those are cities. So I was more of an urban person and a rural person.
And I had a family of four parents and four kids in the family. And I have a twin sister,
which is one unique feature for me. And that's my family of origin. Great. What led you to
want to be a nurse? I think I had a really deep caring for just people very young in my life.
Even as a child I think I had I don't know where that was born in me. But it was born in me
somehow I might have been from like a very caring parents. But I knew that a long time.
K
Kaija Freborg 01:39
Can you tell us about your educational background?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 01:43
Well, let's see. I went to high school, Hopkins high school and went to college at Mankato
State University. And I majored in nursing and got my BSN. And that's important because
my mother was very clear that I needed to go to college and be nursing. Get that degree
versus going through it at that time. There were three year programs into your programs
that she said absolutely not, you need to college degree. And so I was always grateful that
she made that clear for her expectations. And I didn't know any better. So of course I
listened to her. After that I worked for many years and then eventually came back into a
decision to go back to college. And so I came to Augsburg University at that time
Augsburg college to major transcultural nursing and get my master's degree. And that
was a very big decision on my part because I felt I wasn't sure I could do a master's
degree and then I decided I could. And I was very drawn to the to the unique program of
transcultural nursing, that time they have Niels who was the department chair and she's
very inspiring about that idea of what does it mean to really work across multiple cultures
and populations and people from many different classes and different circumstances that
really appealed to me. So I came and got my master's degree here at Augsburg College.
And then after soon as I graduated, I was invited by the bench here, sure luening to come
and teach in the nursing department. And I taught for a few years and then was also very
much engaged in the first DNP TCN program, the Doctor of Nursing Practice in
transcultural nursing, and I was part of that first cohort and graduated with my DNP in
2011. What year did you start here? What do you remember about the department when
you started? What do you really start? I think he started in 2005. What do I remember
about it? I think I remember several things as a brand new faculty. I also had a nursing job
in another organization. So two jobs. I remember feeling overwhelmed, of course that
there was a lot to learn and ramp up my skills quickly. I remember there was just enormous
commitment and compassion and and hard workers at the nursing department was
composed of women, all women who were completely committed to nursing into the
vision for social justice and as well as transcultural nursing, that was very clear.
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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K
Kaija Freborg 04:28
Going back to the work that you had done before as a nurse, can you tell us a little bit
about your history working with hospice for example and the program you started there?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 04:39
Sure. I worked about when I first graduated from college, I worked three years in Hennepin
County Medical Center as a staff nurse and then I went to Fairview and I worked three
years as a as a nurse manager in the inpatient setting and Then I really decided I wanted
to do something out in the community because it really intrigued me not only I was
interested in how people get well, but I was also interested in the role of families in that
people really need to be together in belonging in some way. And so it occurred to me that
I, one way to learn about that is to leave the hospital and work in community. So I was
invited by the then director of nursing in Fairview at that time to help develop a home
care and hospice program, which another nurse and I were employed to do that
development work. And we actually created the first Fairview homecare hospice program.
And that was really exciting for me. And my focus was more hospice and home care. And
so I spent time working on that developing that and when we first started, there were two
of us nurses. And we took care of hospice patients, when we took turns coming in call 24.
Seven, and we would rotate that, and we did that for about two years. And then finally,
we figured out, okay, we need a lot more staff, because there's a lot of potential for this
great program. So it started at those very grassroots, very grassroots, but it was fun. And I
really understood quickly that being in community, where people actually live their lives,
and people have relationships and context where they are, it really matters, how they how
they do. Can you speak more about how there was there a clear connection from your
hospice work to transcultural nursing. Yes. For me a couple things I? Well, first of all, I
worked in Minneapolis and Fairview, and that was Minnesota, and we tended to have a
population when I worked in Hong Kong has tended to be Caucasian and sort of middle
class or maybe lower middle class, but there was a lot of homogeneous populations that
they worked with. Then I moved to South Texas, and in the Rio Grande Valley, which is
very close to Mexico. And I began to work in home care and hospice there. And of course,
it's very much bilingual, bicultural, it's it's very complex dynamics, very intriguing and
wonderful, I met just incredible people. So the notion of having trans cultural skills, even
though I didn't have that word, I didn't know that word had never heard of men line grew
at that time. I didn't know that there was a whole body of knowledge related to this
particular kind of nursing, what I knew is that it's very interesting and very challenging to
work across cultural belief systems and working across language. And I was very in love
with all that it was fun and interesting and difficult and worth worth doing. So I got very
much involved in that when I lived in South Texas. So when I moved back five years later
to Minnesota, it was kind of a natural connection to say, oh, there is a thing called
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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transcultural nursing, that I need to learn more about and be more aware of the of the real
deep concepts and learnings around that which was, I had not had formal education. But I
had a lot of great informal education. So that was great.
K
Kaija Freborg 08:33
Can you do so much about how the nursing department began, and, or how the
transcultural nursing came to be?
K
Kaija Freborg 08:43
I know that I have a very deep understanding of that. I know Bev Nillson was the director
of the chair of the department of nursing, had a vision for that. I don't know when in time
that came forward. I don't know that history. When I came to work on my master's degree
that was a little established. It was very innovative in my mind, but I don't know how that
was born into it Do know Augsburg University has a long history of committing to
immigrants and to commit commitment to social justice issues and really paying
attention to the social dynamics that keep people engaged in society or marginalized
people. artwork has that tradition. And I think that the nursing department also his
alignment that early on, which I was very drawn to.
K
Kaija Freborg 09:39
You alluded to this earlier, but how does such a small group of women not only run the
department but create many different programs in tracks? How did you manage all of
this?
K
Kaija Freborg 09:52
There were many days what I don't know how we managed on it. I think there's just
tremendous commitment. I think people are called to this work. So it's such as a job. And
it's very clear very quickly that people in department call to do this work. So of course,
they do more, spend more time have more commitments, school the extra mile, every day
because of it. So that's how it happened. What kept you here, safely? The calling. It's really
inspiring. Chris, you have amazing students. And they're inspiring and teach you a lot, as
well as our colleagues or colleagues, especially in their state department, but in the larger
community at Augsburg. There's a lot of very gifted and wise people here that inspire all
of us to to do the work, we're called to do. courses to do primarily teach. Well, when I first
came to Augsburg, I was the BSN director in the Minneapolis campus. And so that meant
that I taught a lot of the undergraduate courses, which I think there's still seven I think I
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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took all of them except the leadership one. So the trends class, the communications class,
the family class, forget them, because it was a while ago. But I taught really all the BSN,
baccalaureate level classes when I first came over the period of some years, as well as
supervising and supporting the faculty that were in that program, as well as advising
students in curriculum development evaluation. And then I also started eventually moving
into some of the graduate programs. And then in that one I taught transcultural nursing
course for many years of politics and healthkart course for many years. And then as we
moved into the DNP, the doctoral program that I began to teach or co teach some of
those courses that cosmology class in class on making room at the table. Thank you. So,
so cross all the probe eventually, across all the programs. I never have taught though, in
the FNP program, because I'm not a family nurse practitioner. So that's one of the
programs that teach in.
K
Kaija Freborg 12:25
What was your most memorable teaching experience?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 12:30
Oh, that's a really hard one. Probably I would say, most of them are related to some of the
emergency when my favorite parts of Augsburg and Augsburg nursing department is that
there is this capacity to take students out of the classroom into incredible environments.
And so whether they're being national or local, or international, those are the teachings
that are most profound for me. So for example, I've taken students to walk in Mexico for
many years, for a day of the dead experience in terms of understanding, respect in
relationship with death and dying in any family and all families. And watching and being
a part of the learning experience for students is very profound for me really wonderful. In
that particular practice has expanded into learning more about healing practices, which
has also been very, very profound for me to be a part of learning about that, and
engaging students and then watching students be engaged in how they are integrating
those ideas, and really getting very inspired by that for their own practice.
K
Kaija Freborg 13:50
Can you give a little insight into Guatemala as well as you led that for many years as well?
hearing anything you want to remember from that or how it was shaped?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 14:03
I think that the immersion experiences we had in Guatemala, they had a different focus
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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than Mexico. The focus of Guatemala was much more about social justice issues in really
understanding how persons who have had long histories of severe oppression and even
genocide, the Mayan people of Guatemala have survived in and, and have been able to
continue to uphold their cultural values in their cultural ways, and continue to be a very
vital cultural force in the world but certainly in Guatemala, so that one is a more politically
loaded and it has much more stress and emphasis on social justice and how Power
Systems oppressive and how do you change systems and how how are their how our
voices heard and how do people Organize community organizing skills, there's a whole set
of, of contexts within that particular place in the world that lends itself very well to talk
about these very hard issues, which do connect for nursing because Nursing at a part of
the social justice systems, wherever you're working,
K
Kaija Freborg 15:21
when did you your work at the health Commons begin? What did it look like at that time
and who else was there?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 15:29
Um, I don't know that I can give you a date. feel like I've done it a long time. But I don't
know when in time and started. When I first started working route, Dennis bed was leading
it with Linda Holt, was another faculty and those two women. Even though the health
conferences started by Ben Nielsen, Ruth and Ruth were really the people who were
organizing it and attending to the weekly work of that. And somewhere along the line, we
started bringing students down here and I began to join that effort. But I wasn't formally in
a role there. And we just be with students. I can't remember what year I started coming
down there on a regular basis, it might have been encumbered with retired, but I can't
remember right. But then there was a point in time when Ruth and Linda retired and then
Ruth retired. And then I was more consistently present there. It certainly worked for many
years ago, Katie, and, and we would alternate different days of the week when we would
be present. And certainly the the nursing presence there, along with our wonderful
colleagues who were part of the church there, as well as people who, who just took
leadership roles in the health comments, as they showed up, which is quite extraordinary.
There was more than one location there, the the places, the literals context is space of
that have comments has had many different faces. And what I think when I first came,
there was I don't know, it's about three steps up from a closet, it's just not exactly a
wonderful space, but it was a space that was what was given and provided. And people
came and went, I remember it being rather crowded in very little space to for, for people
who wanted to come and visit the room space for them literally to be and to stand in the
hallway. And so it wasn't, didn't have the same kind of feel of hospitality, that eventually,
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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we got a little bit larger space. And then we can actually have coffee, and we can have a
little table. And then that shifted some of the context in the environment to make it more
hospitable. And more welcoming, is a place just to be not necessarily to get something in
terms of socks, and we'll things which are all fine, too. But there's more to it than just
coming in picking up something and leaving. And I think the space that got to be more
hospitable, was this wonderful, welcoming space. So people come have a conversation,
and just kind of be there for a while. And I thought that was very powerful. Besides the
change in space, was there any other significant changes that you can come to mind?
When you think about when you first started there? I I guess I'd have to say that I think we
got more clear about what our care model would be to teach, I would say, I mean, I think
there's always was an intention to be welcoming and supportive to people who are living
in the margins. But the DNP class that I was probably a part of, began to articulate and
visualize the care model in a way that that was just an evolution of great thinking from
Ruth and Linda. But we actually created a visual model and did some gave some more
language around it. And I think that was helpful in terms of clarifying what more can this
be? And how can we share this model with the public and we literally put it up on the wall,
and we really began to talk about it more. And with our students who'd come, all the BSN
students had experiences down there and then start some of the master's students. I think
it gave us a more of a grounding vision for the work. And I actually felt like it was very
helpful. And that I think it gave him more of a sense that this is this is also called work and
it's not easy to do this work and we have to really be thinking about the theories and the
ideas, the concepts around what does it mean to be hospitable? What does it mean to be
not judging? What does it mean to have mutuality these Some very profound ideas that
are drawn into that model that are not common language in most conversations. And so
for us to have that model in and introduce it to our students and introduce it to anybody
who walks in that room, I felt was very transforming. I think it helped us to say loudly,
we're here. Because we all need, we all need to be in our relationship with one another to
promote our own health. I really appreciate it That was really helpful to me personally,
working.
K
Kaija Freborg 20:36
You were one of many visionaries behind the development of the model. For the health
commons, can you tell us about the process of creating the model and explain it from your
point of view?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 20:54
I think the process again, we're standing on the shoulders of great thinkers and workers
with Ruth especially. But I think part of part of the evolution of model is living. And being in
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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those spaces and working with people who are in the margins, it's not an easy rule to
understand. And coming from education and privilege, you know, it's hard for me to
understand what it's like to not know where someone's sleeping tonight. So it's not
something simple to get to that understanding. And for me that one of the big key
concepts in the model is mutual. And the understanding of my health is related to your
health is really a profound idea. And not easily seen in many healthcare settings. So it was
quite radical to put that in that setting in and then live that out. And part of the evolution
model is living it out in actually being in presence with people who are coming and going
and having all sorts of complicated life circumstances, most of which we don't know. And
still being open to hearing in and listening to what people's struggle theory. And it's also
what people's skills are in survival. There's propounds skills that people are bringing with
them every day, when they come to see you at the House of Commons, they already have
navigated to hard set of things to get there. And, and I love learning about that, because
it's that helps my mutuality, I need some of those skills, too. And so it's actually quite,
quite, I just keep thinking the word profound, but it's just quite inspiring, I guess, to be in
the presence of people who have a different worldview and a different life experience.
And we still can find common ground. And we still can work together. A company made is
another big idea in that model. And the notion of walking alongside of people knowing
full well that you can't, you can't know what they're really dealing with. But you can
support and you can encourage and you can appreciate the walk. And I think that that's
another profound concept in the model as a company, man, which I really think it belongs
in that model. And I think it's a skill that I hope all nurses what would you want nurses to
know most about practicing from this framework? I think maybe starting from a place of
bad judgment, and starting from a place of acceptance and, and just openness that
you're open to learning the stories you're open to hearing people wherever they're at, and
that you're open to knowing that the mutuality or like circumstance is, is a good place to
start.
K
Kaija Freborg 23:56
what were the typical health concerns you encountered when caring for participants
K
Katherine Baumgartner 24:02
I think it would vary quite a bit I think they were they were they were it was kind of a quite
a range that it could go from relatively simple needs in the sense I need some simple
hygiene supplies or I really do need some new socks. That can can sound simple but can
be quite essential. And that it can be met in there can be a smile exchanged, and that's a
lot right there. I think other times it's there's a need for much more storytelling and sharing
and sort of space to do that and feel safe and just kind of heard in nursing creating space
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for that is really quite beautiful. So some people have who visit there would have a need
for that space and time and others or it would vary depending you may see the same
person Five times and rather than the fourth time or fifth time, they actually do want to
talk to you. So you don't know what those other times before you help set the stage for
that comfort. You don't know that. But you might, you might have done it. And so so then
a different level of encounter might take place. We certainly had people come to the
outcomes who actually had a more emergent need, where they really did need for stayed
or they needed a referral, like right now for something else to take place. And, and I think
it was important that the nursing health Commons offers a way to help that happen to
that people feel safe to come there. And they're not going to be judged for whatever it is
they're worried about. And maybe we can accompany or even do some advocacy if
people need something in short order, which did not happen all that often. But it certainly
did happen. I think the one example that one story give you as a woman who came in and
told me she'd been raped, and I hadn't had that experience with helping someone in that
circumstance. And that day, I accompanied her to him because he, er and sat with her
through that whole experience of sexual assault. And I was grateful that she came to that
place because she had she was alone in the world. And so I'm really glad you came here.
K
Kaija Freborg 26:33
What were some of the strengths you saw in the people who visit?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 26:37
Oh, gosh, the list is super long. Well, I would say sort of a strength to keep going to be
really able to have a vision for themselves enough to say that I'm not going to give up, I'm
going to keep going, I'm going to seek out some help some resources, I'm going to have a
plan for myself, I'm going to reach out to somebody, it's a huge string through there. I'm
going to ask for help, I'm going to tell my story, I'm gonna risk telling my story. That's a
strength I think. I also saw a tremendous community where people would be very
encouraging to one another, and, and giving each other support, giving me support. And
those are those are strengths and how people can inspire. long lists of challenges, as well
as lots of things probably unknown. People still had energy and capacity to care about
somebody else and offer support or encouragement or a lot of times people give each
other good advice. Oh, I know exactly where you can do find this or that or whatever. And
people help each other. That's a huge thing. Networking rosani together. It was a lot of
that. And I think also some skills that just problem solving, taking taking really hard
situations and figuring out what to do about it. And I have to admire anybody who could
figure out some of these issues that you would hear about, I wouldn't have the slightest
idea of figuring that out. And people have a lot of ability. And a lot of wisdom Mater's, we
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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call it in, in nursing, where you you learn from your experience, and then you, you apply it
again and you expand it and you keep deepening. There's a lot of meat as a result of the
challenges you have heard most regarding people's ability to access health care. Oh,
there's just a lot of, I think, I think one of the biggest ones is, is the fear of being judged.
And being trivialized, minimized, ignored, disrespected. Those are huge, where people are
don't feel safe coming or saying something or it's more than the money. That's the
obvious one. But I think even more than that, it's feeling disrespected, and and somehow
made fun of or somehow ignored or somehow made to feel as if their concerns or their
issues or even their personhood is, is somehow not okay, somehow it's not good enough or
somehow it's It's just not worthy of whoever they're talking to. It's not worthy of time. So
it's a very dehumanizing can be very dehumanizing experience. And that's what I've heard
is that people don't use some of those healthcare resources, because they've had those
really difficult experiences. And you're not going to put themselves in that again.
K
Kaija Freborg 30:24
What should nurses know when taking care of people who may be experiencing
homelessness? Or who are marginally housed? will
K
Katherine Baumgartner 30:34
probably that, you know, most people are two paychecks away from the same thing. So
it's not like it's them, and me and them and us. Actually, anybody can be homeless, for
couch chopping, or whatever the terms are. But I think knowing that this is a human
condition, and there's lots and lots of circumstances that put people in this kind of
vulnerable place. And I think understanding that you can't know. And if you're lucky,
someone will tell you more of their story. And try, as best you can to suspend judgment
about that is the first time that this is a human human time and a human condition and it
deserves your respect.
K
Kaija Freborg 31:18
Is there something we could improve upon at the health Commons?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 31:23
Well, I, I'm not sure exactly how the remodel is going. But I do think the space could be
better. Just in terms of expanding its sense of hospitality, not so much for the nursing
people who are there, but more for the people who come together as they need to meet
each other and support each other. I think there's a lot of potential for that. And part of
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my reason for saying it isn't when some years back, there was a women's group, and the
women would get together in I can't. I was always astounded at the kind of special
information they would share with each other, about life, and how you get along with
stuff. And with certain people or certain organizations or certain way you navigate things,
there was just this tremendous sense of safety in that space to share through that
information. I really liked that. And I thought, well, could that could that get different and
better? And could there be more of them? opportunity, not only for women, but certainly
for men too. I think people get too isolated. And some of that is fear in their head. Not
sure who to trust and all that. But I wonder if they help comments could also facilitator
advocate for greater spaces for people to to create more community, because I'm a big
believer that this membership of this community, and the more we can create that in a
way that's really positive and non judgmental, but a safe space for people to work out
things. I think that's that would be a great addition. And I don't know what the new space
is going to look like it's evolving. I know. But that's what I would hope for now.
K
Kaija Freborg 33:12
What do you think the health Commons should look like 20 years from now?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 33:18
I don't have the slightest idea. I can't even imagine right now, given our worrisome
political environment. I'd What I don't know is Will people care? Will the mark people who
are marginalized, even that population grow? Will people have a heart for better any
compassion for people who are on the edge of society? I can't even imagine right now. I'm
hopeful. I'm always hopeful. So Minnesota has a pretty long history of being
compassionate and caring about the human condition. So I'm hoping that there will be
something called the home comments, though I believe there will always be
marginalization of people. I think that's part of our human condition. I don't know, right? I
don't know the answer. But I don't see it as anything. And I want to submit it more of a
medical model clinic I don't see that. I do see it as is a place maybe for for learning and
practicing and supporting one another in a greater sense of well being. But I don't see it as
any kind of Western medical clinic thing. I don't see that at all. I like the idea of continuing
with a strong model of hospitality. I think that's really foundational to help.
K
Kaija Freborg 34:51
What would your advice be to future or current faculty in the nursing department?
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K
Katherine Baumgartner 34:57
Well, I will Wish 100% of the nursing faculty at Augsburg University spend time and now
have comments. Because the lessons there are so profound and the teachers themselves.
So I would, I would feel sad that any faculty would miss them. And they wouldn't take
advantage of not only looking at the model that's here to carry around with you, but
actually seeing it in action and being a part of living. I would want that for 100% of
faculty, and in the adjunct faculty. And then I think I think it helps put that commitment
deeper in everybody's soul in the nursing department, because it's, it's really a lived, it's a
lift, commitment. And I think it helps it'll, it'll seep into more and more of our, our
curriculum. And in the way that we support nurses to be really, citizen nurses as people,
agents of social change, I think nurses need to know more about marginalized
populations, and there's, they're all over the place, but sometimes it's easy to walk right
by. So
K
Kaija Freborg 36:15
one question I have is related to the 100 and 50th. anniversary coming up in 2019. There's
a lot of questions around how we're living out our mission. And also, who are we? And
what should we be thinking about changing or holding on to as we move forward? as
being? You know, I guess the term I would use this authentically Augsburg, like, what
should what would be your call for action to all of us to hold on to in these times of
change, as well as celebration? So and I guess, so what would kind of your reaction be to
how nursing is uplifting the model? Or the mission of the college? And what would be your
call for us to hold on to related to who we are our identity?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 37:05
Well, I'm very proud that Augsburg has always had a deep commitment to the urban
setting, the immigrant journey and the in the notion of living out set of principles and faith
traditions, I think those are really strong. I hope they always lasted Augsburg. Augsburg,
also very committed to social justice. What does that mean? And so how does that get
lived out in our curriculum and inner social action initiatives in the campus as well as
individual departments? I think our nursing departments had some some engagement in
that in terms of the citizen nurse idea. I think it's a very strong idea. And I think we haven't
gone very far with it. But I think it could be a very strong role model for the rest of the
college to say, what does it mean to be a citizen? Teacher? And what does it mean to be a
citizen historian? And and really understand that, not only are we do we have the privilege
of lots of education, which gives you different opportunities in real, but it also, we really
have tremendous obligations to really support them. just adjust world. And so what does
that mean? So what does it mean for nerves? What does it mean for anybody who's going
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to school, and I think the college can get even more engaged in in me, I think we've done a
lot of great things. But I think even more engaged, because our political environment is
really asking is to be unengaged, and be really uninformed, and not not at all pushing for
some of the social justice issues that we care about. So that means we have to respond to
we have to be more organized, and we have to be more systematic. And we really have to
have voices heard by departments by the college. I know there was a English professor
here that's going to be deported. I think that's outrageous. And I know there's been
certainly response from Augsburg college, but lies and 1000s of students upset about that
versus several 100. So I'm just curious about how that's going to happen. And I feel like
that's an important calling. This College has got a great history of being very much
engaged in in many issues that are foundational to this country. And I think it can be just
keep getting stronger and stronger. But we have to apply these these smart ideas we
have we have good community organizing skills, we have a center for democracy, and
change and so what what does it mean? Per department, and how do we really engage
those ideas in a way that's absolutely visible in, in, in our communities and visible in the
whole state.
K
Kaija Freborg 40:24
Thank you for your time. And this was beautiful. It was important. It uplifted so many
things that not only. I was hoping you would but I learned so much.
K
Katherine Baumgartner 40:37
So thank you my privilege. Appreciate it the conversation.
Kathleen Clark 40:49
So we're back we're going to have a second little addition here to Katherine
Baumgartner's oral history. One thing that we kind of wanted to highlight was a couple
things that Katherine wanted to elaborate a little bit more on. So, Katherine, I think you
wanted to add a little bit more about the model of practice at the health commons. So
could you share with us what was on your mind.
K
Katherine Baumgartner 41:16
So the care model that emerged in the health commons was several years ago, and it was
really, as I had already said, was really built from the brilliant work of Ruth and his bed
was support from Linda Holt. And but the four components of it that are so really
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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amazing have to do with the acknowledging the need of people who come to the
outcomes for support. attending to the struggle, affirming strengths and accompaniment
and those large components of the care model were really lived out every single day that
we and I worked there, in just a couple comments about that acknowledging the need,
people come there, because something is drawing them there. And sometimes it's very
obvious and clear, and sometimes it's not at all clear, and people still come in. So we just
know there's something that people are, are wanting in that space, and in those
relationships, and so they come so we acknowledge that something is they're attending to
the struggle, everyone who comes in, in that circumstances dealing with a wide variety of
challenges, most of which we don't know. But at least they come in many times, who will
begin to be open to share something of what the journey is that they're on. And then
affirming strengths, or there's just tremendous strengths that people bring. And sometimes
they're not as aware of those on themselves, or they haven't been very acknowledged in
other settings. And so we have a great opportunity in that setting to have comments that
people carry tremendous strength with them, and ability to navigate. And, and we really
are very aware of that and give people a lot of information for that. And then the third
one is the accompaniment. Sometimes people do need to be have some luck with them as
you're making decisions or choices or the next step, whatever it is that they are needing to
do. And having someone affirm that and and even just talk it through them is enormous.
That's great. Just highlight a few of those things from the help.
Kathleen Clark 43:23
Yeah. And and one question I have is, sometimes students have a hard time knowing what
this looks like, when we're in relationship. So could you give an example of any of the
stages a story that would uplift any of it?
Kathleen Clark 43:38
Um, I think just think a second Oh, there was a gentleman that came one time, who had
just that Dave and released from the hospital for an inpatient psychiatric care, time and
care. And he was very, he was upset, he was upset that his life has really gotten
complicated and messy and hard to manage. And so there was just kind of attending to
the fact that he had a lot of anxiety and stress was kind of uncertain where, where that
day was going to take him and what was happening. And I, of course, did not know that
either. But I created just space to talk about that. And he talked a lot and in my job was to
just be present and not judging and not knowing not certainly any advice, but just kind of
giving him space. So that was attending, acknowledging your need and then attending to
the struggle as he's trying to figure out what what literally what was he going to do that
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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day and then the next day and the next day. As time passed, and he talked more and
more began to learn more about his life and heard that he actually has a daughter. So he
gets all these pictures of his daughter how much he loves her. And so that that was a great
opportunity for me to attend to his his ability and his strength. put lots of time thought
about that. And that meant a lot to him. And me share that story. And we did that we
talked a lot about her. And when he left, he said, You know, it just felt like I've been talking
to my aunt, and someone really personal. And he said, You know, I'm really proud of my
daughter. And so that's how we ended that time together. And I had no idea where any of
that was gonna go. But I do do on her when he left, he felt strong. I could tell by the way,
he hugged me, and I could tell by the way he walked out of the room. So that was one
example. And it works, he was really quite beautiful.
Kathleen Clark 45:41
That is beautiful.
Kathleen Clark 45:45
So can you then elaborate a little bit more on the care we provide that you alluded to?
K
Katherine Baumgartner 45:52
The next thing I'd like to talk about is something that Care, we provided the health
commons, which I want to just add one really, super important one is foot care. And
because a lot of the people who come here, are under feet, literally many hours of the day
and have little or no opportunities in place to choose your shoes, or wash your socks. And
so we're very aware that caring for feet is is a very powerful way to connect with
individuals and support their struggle, as well as just provide some literal human
connection. So we literally take off shoes and socks, and wash people's feet and attend to
sores or her nail care as a very literal way of touching and connecting with another
human being in a way that offers support and human kindness and human connection.
And I think it has its own grace in just in that. And then of course, there's also the
meaningful work of caring for feet, because feet, carry people into the world. And it's very
important that that care happens as frequently as possible. So people can feel that at
least that part of their body is well attended to, and they can feel some, some confidence
that those feet are going to take them into the next, the next part of their journey,
whatever that is. So we do that every time. Every time I've worked there, I've done foot
care. And, and then of course, the space doing footcare creates a lot of opportunity for
people to say more about what's happening for them and what their day was like are
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going to be or things you're worried about. And so it becomes a really very personal kind
of intimate way of connecting with someone. And and I think there's a lot of important
conversations. And the other thing that's kind of unique about footcare is, in the
circumstance that we had it in health comments, there were like a circle of chairs. And so
there would be many people getting put here at the same time. And again, there's this
community that emerges, where people hear one another situations and stories, and they
offer each other an idea or a support or a job or something kind of kind of helps everyone
feel more connected to one another. That was really very powerful.
Kathleen Clark 48:15
Could you then tell me about some of the things you wanted to add about some of the
early years and courses that you've taught at Augsburg University. Early years,
K
Katherine Baumgartner 48:24
I worked as the director of the BSN program in Minneapolis. And one of the things I
wanted to add about that is that I think it was very much of a growth time for the for the
nursing department, Augsburg as well. And there were not enough faculty. And so we all
had to learn how to help each other do many, many things. And there was a, a very deep
vocational calling for all of us to be there. But also, I think there was a very strong culture
in that department where there was a deep sense of learning. And we were all learning
and supporting each other in our learning. And in a very non judgmental culture, which
people were given the space to try new things and, and some stuff worked in the
classroom and some didn't. And so we were constantly talking to each other and learning
and trying trying new ideas. And that very positive learning environment was very
wonderful to work in very strong for me as a brand new teacher to feel like I could do this,
and I can learn this and I will get support, and I will have resources to help me be the best
teacher I can be. And so I am very grateful for that. And it was early in my years there and
I think it's still very much sustained. And then the last thing I want to just add, I have a
question about what courses I've taught over these 12 years that I was at Oxford, and we
had quite a range of classes that were at had the opportunity to teach. Because I was the
BSN director, I really took six of the BSN courses, the translations class, the
communication class, family nursing class, the nursing theory class and the community
health classes. And that was all at the BSN level, that was a lot of courses to learn and to
help create and expand and teach a very, very fun to do that. And I learned a lot working
in those different courses as well as a lot from the students and then the particular
resources that we would engage in those classes as well. Then I went on and taught in the
master's program in the transcripts for nursing courses, as well as the politics and
healthcare courses were very delightful courses. I taught this for many, many years. And
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then as we ended up, adding a DNP, a Doctor of Nursing Practice program, I think it was
in 2008 that came in. I taught eventually after I got my doctorate and I eventually taught
in 800 class, which was the practice was an evidence class 802 making them at the table
and 803 the trans cultural cosmology. So I have been very blessed to have such a wide
range of opportunities to to learn a variety of classes with a variety of resources and texts
with us. And so I My life has been deeply enriched by having the opportunity.
Kathleen Clark 51:30
Well, thank you so much for those additions. Katherine, they were very insightful and this
oral history has been just very enriching and will tell stories for years to come. So I
appreciate your time.
Oral History Interview with Katherine Baumgartner,
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Show less
Oral History Interview with Kathleen
'Katie' M. Clark (2019)...
Tue, 3/9 4:38PM
46:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, nursing, students, thinking, commons, augsburg, health, dnp, working, space, community,
piece, day, offered, center, open, department, years, ended, bsn program
SPEAKERS
Kathl... Show more
Oral History Interview with Kathleen
'Katie' M. Clark (2019)...
Tue, 3/9 4:38PM
46:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, nursing, students, thinking, commons, augsburg, health, dnp, working, space, community,
piece, day, offered, center, open, department, years, ended, bsn program
SPEAKERS
Kathleen Clark, Kaija Freborg
K
Kaija Freborg 00:04
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project on the on the Department of
nursing for Augsburg University. My name is Kaija Freborg. I'm an assistant professor and
director of the BSN program here at Augsburg, could you please introduce yourself for the
record for the recording and tell us what your position is?
Kathleen Clark 00:23
At the university? Yes, my name is Katie Clark, and I'm an assistant professor of nursing
and I also direct the Augsburg central health commons.
K
Kaija Freborg 01:24
Great. Before we continue, I'd like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and
having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public.
Kathleen Clark 01:24
Oral History Interview with Kathleen 'Katie'Page
M. Clark
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Yes.
K
Kaija Freborg 01:24
Thank you. So can you tell us about where you grew up? Or who you call family?
Kathleen Clark 01:24
Yeah, so I grew up primarily in White Bear Lake, Minnesota. And pretty traditional family
of my mom, dad and two brothers. I'm the oldest of my three siblings.
K
Kaija Freborg 01:24
What led you to the nursing profession?
Kathleen Clark 01:24
Well, if you ask my grandma, she'll tell you when I was four, I told her that I was going to
go to Africa and bring all of our leftover food to people on the on the pictures of National
Geographic because I said that I wanted to, you know, be a helper, I guess. But it became
more clear to me the older I got that. I wanted to do something where it was working with
people and nursing seemed like a good fit. So yeah, with that I kind of decided right away
when I went to Eau Claire that that's the major I wanted to pursue.
K
Kaija Freborg 01:24
Can you tell us more about your educational background, your experience in Eau Claire?
Kathleen Clark 01:54
Sure. So I went to the University of Wisconsin, Eau Claire. I graduated in 2002, my BSN
from there. And then and I'm trying to remember, I was working in the bedside at the
bedside for a long time for six years at the University of Minnesota Medical Center also, as
the U hospitals changes its name all the time, but I worked in oncology for six years there.
And when I was there, I was thinking that I was ready to go back to school and I was
thinking about a nurse practitioner degree. And I actually applied at St. Kate's and was
going in for my interview and one of my friends had mentioned to me because I had been
traveling a lot and volunteering in different places that Augsburg had a program where it
Oral History Interview with Kathleen 'Katie'Page
M. Clark
2 of 16
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
was focused on transcultural nursing, and I could travel and get my masters at the same
time. And so I looked at it I applied and I ended up not going to my interview and started
my Master's in transcultural Nursing at Augsburg at that time. And then so I graduated
with that I want to say in 2011. And then I graduated with my I ended up working or being
hired to coordinate the whole Commons that towards the end of my Masters while still
working at the U and then I was in the medical ICU for a few years. And then ended up
going back for my DNP which I graduated in 2014 with prolonged work.
K
Kaija Freborg 02:19
So how did you end up teaching at Augsburg?
Kathleen Clark 02:21
So when I was doing my Masters, I really focused on working with homeless youth I was
actually at the Bridge for Youth and I really wanted to dive all in and the bridge for youth.
They wouldn't take nurses at that time, even though they had a nurse because they didn't
want somebody coming in for 36 hours doing their hours and then being done when it
took a lot of time and effort from the nurse to really train somebody in and it was really a
hard population to connect with. So I ended up doing what they have an internship for
people who are getting their master's in like family psychology and therapy. And so I
ended up doing that internship to prove that I was committed. So I use that for many my
practicum hours where I was working, taking crisis calls at the bridge for you, which is
mostly it's 10 to 17 year olds, and it's over and uptown. So at that shelter, so I was taking
crisis calls, I was helping connect with resources. I was helping with the youth that were
there. And so, as I was doing that, I ended up doing my final project there, but I ended up
being able to work with the nurse Cheree Langmade she then got married and is now
Cheree O'Shields. So with her, I got to meet with the youth, I got to do outreach. I mean, it
was just like the most amazing experience to have. And as I started doing that, and then
taking the classes, I realize like, how transformative having some of those experiences was
for my ability to connect and kind of see some of the gaps that were presenting
themselves in my inpatient experiences. And it made me really fired up that we need to
have nurses understand this more nursing just doesn't happen at the bedside, how do we
get people more involved with the community that they're in? And so I was talking to my
advisor about it at the time. And my advisor, Magdeline said, well, there's an opening to
direct our health commons, or at that time, it was called the nursing center, maybe you
should think about applying, and I wasn't done with my Masters yet. So I didn't think there
would be any way I would get it. But I applied and interviewed and they took me, so
Oral History Interview with Kathleen 'Katie'Page
M. Clark
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K
Kaija Freborg 06:06
what classes do you primarily teach and what's been your most memorable teaching
experience.
Kathleen Clark 06:13
So currently, I mostly teach in the graduate program, politics of healthcare, 541. And then
802, which is a doctorate course, making room at the table. So, but I've been at the
college now or the university for 11 years. So I also taught community health in the BSN
program, one in two. So I would say that I really, I really love teaching, especially in
courses where there's an experiential piece, because I feel like it lets the students go a
little deeper than just discussions and readings, which are very important, but also it really
lets them kind of get out of their comfort zone and really see things through a different
lens. So I love the experiential learning pieces, as much as it can be a lot more work to
teach in that manner. I think it's had some good outcomes for students.
K
Kaija Freborg 07:22
What what's your work like? been at the health commons What stands out to the most
about what you're doing there?
Kathleen Clark 07:30
It's a good question. Um, there's so much so the health commons, like I said, Originally, it
was called the nursing center it had started in 1992. And I'll just kind of maybe give a little
bit of the history from what I've learned over the years. But I've been in this role for 11
years now. So that originally started with Bob Nillson, who was the chair at that, at that
time, and actually, I just was reading this article that Sharon Wade found that was very
insightful that really was talking about how, bear with me for a second, I should have
pulled this out earlier, I could find it. But it was really bad was wanting to so at the time,
nursing centers were kind of becoming like a new thing that nurses were doing, not only
could they practice independently, but it was a way for nurses to build trust in the
community. And also at that time, she was a parishioner at Central Lutheran Church and
central Lutheran Church had been doing all these things, including a free clothing closet
for people experiencing homelessness in the inner city of Minneapolis. So she saw that
saw an opportunity that students could come maybe check some blood pressures, get to
know folks and really kind of have a more service learning experience. There's also focus
on health fairs, and Health Promotion type activities. They had vouchers for people to go
to nearby pharmacies and get things like topical creams and whatever somebody might
Oral History Interview with Kathleen 'Katie'Page
M. Clark
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need from over the counter pieces. So they had vouchers to send people to Walgreens or
it was a nearby pharmacy. And so anyhow, as they open there is kind of the shift in
thinking over the years that this isn't about providing of service. But this is really about
mutual benefit coming in understanding a population that's often misunderstood or
marginalized when they come into our healthcare sectors. They might be seen as labeled
as a frequent fliers or maybe they're non compliant or whatever it may be. And so they
feel judged when they come into the health or when they come into our ers or other
healthcare settings. And so we are able to be there in that moment to hopefully kind of
break down some barriers. Come together, get to know each other, figure out what people
want for their health. And also, it's an opportunity for nurses to understand a population
that is often hidden from their own. And so for example, we've had students even talk
about going to do outreach at times, which we've done on and off from here, and here
and there, where, you know, usually you're walking down on Nicollet Avenue, and you see
all the working people as far as everyone's going to lunches and meetings and, or going
out to dinners or going to concerts or whatever. But when you're doing outreach, all
sudden, you see these and it's almost like things you never saw before. So people who are
literally trying to blend in and hang out, or we call squat in the background just to survive
through the day and find a warm place to stay or a meal to eat or whatever it may be.
But so anyhow, so the health comments itself, was originally in the basement of the
church, it was a room that was had two doors, one that you can kind of go in, and when
that you would come out, there's kind of like a one, one. So people come in and kind of to
waves so they come in, they get hygiene products. So since the beginning, we've offered
socks, socks are the main requested item, it's how we keep track of our numbers, we count
the number of socks each day, because basically everyone wants socks, because with feet
being your main mode of transportation, and you have used or cheap shoes, you can
imagine what people's feet are like and if you take your shoes off at many of the shelters,
as many of our guests are experiencing homelessness or marginally housed, you can
imagine what people's feet are like so then at the shelter, sometimes people's shoes will
get stolen even when they're on their feet. So I mean, there's just like the foot situation is
horrific at times. So and then we have basic hygiene things like mostly travel size, like
shampoo, conditioner, razors, deodorant. And then we also have diapers diapers aren't
covered by WIC or food stamps. So if you have children, you can imagine the costs that
goes along with that. And then we also have wipes with which people also use for if they
don't have access to shower, which is a huge problem right now. Right now there's the
opioid epidemic is really hitting the area hard. And so people are often not allowing
people to shower because there's so much fear that people are getting high in the shower,
and that they're going to overdose. And so it's just like this very complicated thing at this
time, which is really hard for people. And then. So we kind of have all that and then
underwear, our other major item, which if you can imagine, if you don't have access to
shower, and you don't have clean clothes, and you're wearing the same pair of underwear
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for a long time, you can imagine the need for that. So that's kind of like our first wave of
visitors and always kind of has been and then a second way will, which is about a third of
the folks, maybe a fourth, depending on the day will come and meet one on one with the
nurse. And it's usually people who have not who've been there a couple times, usually it
takes some time to establish some trust. And so they might want their blood pressure
checked, they might talk about a rash that they have, they might simply just want to talk
about what's happening in their day. And a lot of it is about just having a moment to be
heard, to really not be there to say for us to judge or diagnose or assess, but really to be
present and really to hear pull out the strengths that people are saying, figure out how we
can best help them in some way. Like for example, I've had this woman come in multiple
times. She's there almost every time we're open, her blood pressure is always through the
roof. And I'm talking like 200 over 120. She had her stroke through three months ago. And
in my impatient world with the protocols and other technocratic skills that are there that
dictate how you would respond. It's very uncomfortable at times. But in this setting, I am
not the expert and she is able to speak for herself. And she is doing the best that she can.
And for her she's more worried about where she's going to eat. And if she goes into the
doctor who's going to take her scooter like her scooter is a big deal for her because
somebody might steal it. So with her it's more trying to meet her where she's at and figure
out where she can go and how we can help along that journey but also trying to suspend
the judgment in it because we think that people should be doing a certain thing. But that's
all coming from empirical ways of knowing and not thinking about all the factors that
really affect people's health. So anyhow, there's lots of things that kind of happen in those
moments that are very unscripted on dictated as far as like the one on one meeting with a
nurse, we do foot care. Sometimes we have wounds, I have a guy who keeps coming in
who has a recent gunshot wound. And I give him supplies and the space to now he does it
on his own. Because he can't do it at the shelter. And again, having access to the
bathroom on your own or shower is very limited with all the things that are happening
with the opioid problem. And so just giving him the space to take care of himself, which is
really can be hard when you're going from place to place. The other big thing that we do
that other places don't is we don't ask for an ID or insurance, so anyone can come in. And
most of the time, I only know people's what we call street names, lots of people go by
street names versus their real names. And so and that's, it's how they want what what do
they want me to know about that? So my name is Snoop. Alright, Snoop. You know, I've
known Snoop now for 10 years. But I know that's not his real name. But that is how he
identifies himself. So yeah, that was a very long answer. But yeah, so we ended up so we
were on this like smaller basement room for a long time, that actually looked a lot more
medical, it was more like a long hallway. with not a lot of places to for people to meet one
on one, then we ended up moving down the hallway as the church open what's called the
restoration Center, which is basically more like a drop in center or day shelter. And so then
they kind of put they had this old preschool area with multiple school rooms turn into a
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Health Commons, and then the clothing closet. And then there's job coaches. And then
there's a pastor who works one on ones with folks with rental systems and things like that.
So we moved down the hall to this massive room, which was amazing, as far as there's so
much room to meet and have more privacy. But that building in itself was costing the
church a lot of money to maintain. And so they ended up tearing that down three years
ago. Now we moved to a trailer for a few years. And then we now move back into this new
space, which I was able to give input into about what I wanted what it looks like. So it's
beautiful, it's open, it has natural light. And there's a room that actually has a shower and
a washing machine. Then there's another room that I can meet one on one with people in
and then it has a closet full of supplies, we have another club, huge closet, the biggest
closet in the whole, the whole new building for other donations to have there. And then
there's two, actually, there's three sinks in that room. And then so there's a kind of an open
space. My main thing that's been hard is that there's it's not very big. But so it's hard to
give people that autonomy. So I find that like a lot of times, some are really severely
mentally ill individuals who, who really have a lot of paranoia. For example, one
gentleman who came in a lot of every time we were open, he wanted to sit in a chair
where he could be in the corner and then see where everybody was. He's schizophrenic.
And not that that matters. We don't care about that type of diagnosis when we're there.
But also it helps me that I know that in the fact of what triggers him. And so he wanted to
be in control of knowing who was around him all the time. So being that the space is so
small, like he hasn't come into the new space. I've seen him at the church once but he
really kind of came in and left. So whether it's he's still trying to figure out what what the
new space is. And if you feel safe there or what not, it is kind of changing a little bit of the
dynamic, but it's, it's a space that's provided to us and always has been for free. But we do
have an ongoing partnership with the church as far as they, I would never do anything
without going in and asking them first, we very much have a supportive relationship. But
in the same instance, they've really allowed us to have this be what we want it to be and
not force any kind of ideals or you have to do X, Y and Z if you're going to have the space
which is beautiful, and the restorations that are really focused on social justice, not
thinking through much as the charity lens of things and really like the relationship piece
which is so important to us as well. So it's it's made sense it's been very, very beautiful
relationship that we've been able to have over years with. Yeah. So is there I'm trying to.
Yeah. So that was a very long, long winded question or answer, but a little bit information
is is very much welcome.
K
Kaija Freborg 20:14
So thank you. You've talked a lot about the health commons. I know you've done a lot of
work with immersion, you know, class, experiential opportunities for students, can you tell
me how students respond to your teachings in these spaces?
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Kathleen Clark 20:35
Sure. So I mean, every student is definitely different and comes with their own experiences
and ideas. So in my experiences at the health common, so backing up just a little bit, too,
so we have the Augsburg Central Health Commons. And then in 2011, as part of my DNP
project, we started another health Commons in Cedar Riverside. And so that one has been
around now since then. And that one is working more in the neighborhood with mostly
East African immigrants. And we are partnered with Fairview and the East Africa health
project. And also, it's in many different places, and is open more days and more hours. So
we're in the chase building of the riverside plazas during the weekdays. And then on
Fridays, we have mobile outreach day, which we go to like the elderly public housing
units. And then we also have swimming, which is a big deal for the women to have a place
that they can go where they can draw the curtains, and no one can see them so they can
swim in a culturally appropriate area. And we have gardening where we work with the
gleaning program as well, where we go to mill cities farmers market, pick over up the
leftover produce from some of the vendors there and bring it back into the neighborhood.
And it's kind of morphed and changed over time. There's we're always trying to provide
programs that respond to that express felt need. I have not been the director there now
since 2015.
K
Kaija Freborg 22:19
And how long has it been going you didn't say what year it started.
Kathleen Clark 22:22
2011 is when we officially opened. So I think it was the spring of 2015 that Rebecca
Hartwig became the director, as both as directing both of them and teaching was a lot.
And it's hard to maintain all of that, and a life with three kids and a husband. So anyhow,
Rebecca has been there. But anyhow, so that has been another experience that has been
embedded into our program. So I'm so at Central, I would say that it has been so well
established, the students come in, we have every time we're open, at least 60 usually
more like 100 people in that hour and a half or open come through and and get things
and so, I think that students get it, they are excited about it, they came to Augsburg
because of the trans cultural focus. So they usually the first time they come to health
comments, which is embedded in our BSN, introductory course 300 and has been for
many years. So those students really kind of have this like awakening or realization of
biases they might have or how how they really want to engage as nurses and what they
might want to do long term. So you really see students come in, kind of almost like
overwhelmed at times, they might be coming from Rochester and have limited exposure
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to homelessness, or they might be very stressful all the things in their life. And they come
they're like, here's another thing I have to do. But usually by the end, they're like, I'm so
glad I had this experience. I've never had an experience like this as a nurse. In a setting
like this. It's so open or inorganic and unscripted really lets you just be and connect until
students usually really have an eye opening experience the first time those of the students
that come in the graduate program and come back over time, they really can start diving
into some of those relationships or challenging some of those stereotypes that they
themselves might have. And kind of dig deeper, if you will. And then in the suit of Riverside
health commons that in we have that in one of our first graduate classes for students
where they have to go and have an experience and it's usually on Fridays because it is the
main prayer day in the neighborhood. So people are out and about and so students
usually have had limited exposure to be an animal In a setting like that, where it's in a
neighborhood that has been projected to be many things, as far as some pretty horrible
nicknames or labels from being a place that's really been either a place of new
immigrants or where people are living in extreme poverty. So I think there's a lot of worry
about coming into that neighborhood and biases. And then the students are able to come
in and really have this like connection to a culture that they've they've probably intersect
with, especially weak with East African immigrants, many of them have had, you know, co
workers and friends who have come from that culture, but never to be in the setting where
it's really there's five moss on the food is authentic, and they're able to really connect with
people in a different way. And so those students really seem to have an impactful
experience, too. It looks different, there's less people coming in. And it's more about
providing opportunities for community to gather and being a resource, and providing
things like massage and healing touch and blood pressure checks and going over
medications. So it looks different, but it is very much based on the same model of
practice.
K
Kaija Freborg 26:22
Could you speak to the Rochester site?
Kathleen Clark 26:25
Sure. So last year, three graduate DNP students started the Rochester health common. So
right now it has been open for let's see, it's been open for a year. And it is in a space that is
part of the food shelf that's offered at Bethel. So Bethel Lutheran Church in Rochester,
Minnesota. And so the students now have been there. This is actually the beginning of the
second year and all this fall. And so the students have offered space and place for folks to
gather, they usually have what it seems to the people who are marginally house, so they
probably are not staying in shelter, but they are working multiple jobs or kind of what we
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say. When you think about marginally housing might be in and out of homelessness, or
couch hopping is often what happens in those situations where they might stay friends for
a while, and then they might end up sleeping in their car. there's not as many shelters in
Rochester. So they typically have around 20 people who come and the students who are
going there there. So the three graduate students who have started it are there, but then
they have taken in a few students at a time to kind of come and help with the daily
operation. And so it's very much a pilot, we're not sure where it's going to land. But it's
been really awesome to have these students kind of fall in love with the idea of starting
health comments, and what could that look like? And they're doing all this work in
establishing themselves in a community and a partnership. And yeah, they've done an
excellent job.
K
Kaija Freborg 28:15
What should nurses know about practicing from the frameworks that you've sort of
touched on trans cultural lens or holistic nursing?
Kathleen Clark 28:28
say more about that, again, what do you
K
Kaija Freborg 28:30
what should nurses know about practicing from a transcultural framework or holistic,
nursing lens?
Kathleen Clark 28:38
Sure, so many things, where to begin, I guess, the thing that kind of resonates with me the
most is showing up being authentically there. And thinking about all the different ways of
knowing that we talked about in our program that are so important, but sometimes, the
beginning step in learning any of these things is kind of self awareness. And as people
become aware of themselves, both professionally and personally, they're able to dig a
little deeper and really begin to understand the society around us that has created these
health implications and health disparities. And by a better understanding ourselves, we're
better able to understand the world that we're in and better able to understand the world
as we would want it. And so I think that it takes a student to really have passion and to
want to do more than be the best or the smartest when it comes to medical intervention.
And that's very important, but there's also a whole person and there's also a whole
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community. And so with each patient we care for, we have to think about things in bigger
ways, or what we're doing is not going to work. It's not working, our healthcare system is
not working. And so who's going to be able to lead the way to change those things better
than nurses who understand transcultural nursing, or holistic nursing or whatever, lens, we
want to give it as far as like thinking about, you know, the theory that we all love and
know. But, um, yeah, there's always more to it. And health happens in so many different
ways in so many different forms and thinking that we know the answers is, is the first thing
that we kind of need to unpack and realize is we don't, we don't, we can think we don't,
but we don't. So having that humility to know we're not always the experts, and to de
emphasize those professional tasks is huge. But also is part of the world of healthcare
right now, too. So how do we navigate all of that? And how do we support each other? I
think that's the other big piece in all this is, you know, nurses, we've all been taught to be
so individualistic. How can we really realize that we need each other we need to support
each other? And that matters? I don't know if I really answered your question. But no,
K
Kaija Freborg 31:24
I think that is a beautiful explanation. Thank you. If there would be something that we
could improve upon in the department, what would that be? Do you imagine?
Kathleen Clark 31:33
Oh, well, I think it's probably at the university level in general, we're all very passionate
about what we do. And because of that, we don't say no. So I think we're all overworked. I
think the program or the department has bennish, strong group of brilliantly minded
women that I adore, and I am so happy that I've been able to work with everyone. But I
think that because our passions and when think about it, in the last how many years we've
started, how many tracks in the program, you know, when we do that without extra FTE,
or we do it working overloads. And so oftentimes, we don't set limits. And I think that is the
biggest thing that we need to figure out how to do for the longevity of the program,
because we can't just always be working. And we can't tell students that about self care
and being involved in the community when we're not able to sometimes do things
ourselves because we are sacrificing things for the greater good, which I understand. But
we need to figure out how we do that better.
K
Kaija Freborg 32:45
Where do you see the department being in 20 years from now?
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Kathleen Clark 32:51
I think we're at a pivotal moment. I'm not sure I think we will either be expanding down
the licensure track, whether it's more nurse practitioner programs, or even certification
programs, maybe there's always talk of if we start a BSN program or a traditional BSN
program. I think that our transcultural nursing program is something that's very unique.
And is not well known about and I don't know how we do that better. Exactly. But I think
that are kind of pivotal time where either I mean, and maybe it will all grow. I'm not sure
but I feel like it's going to go one way or the other either. We're going to kind of stay
where we're at and expand and grow with what we have or we're going to go focus more
one track or the other. I don't know it'll be it'll be good. I do have some concerns. Some of
our major foundational leaders are retiring, which is good, they should retire. And that's
wonderful. But you know, Ruth Enestvedt, she was very foundational in the work and, and
the DNP created the DNP program with Cheryl Leuning. But Ruth retired A few years ago,
Katherine Baumgartner as well retired a few years ago. And then now we have some
other major leaders retiring in the near future. And so how do we make sure we continue
on the work? It's, it'll be an interest in sharing weight. I mean, sharing weight has been
pivotal and keeping this all afloat, and she will be retiring soon. So there's just so many
unknowns that I I think it's also opportunity to think about who else and what else so I'm
excited but also pause to think about what that could be.
K
Kaija Freborg 34:57
Is there anything else that you'd like to tell us that we haven't asked? yet?
Kathleen Clark 35:03
No, I think that another thing that's changing too is we're thinking about doing more
online. And I think that's great. And for me, I'm just getting off of this like, two days ahead
of an immersion for making room at the table, there's four days that we do. And, you
know, the students in that class just by the the last day of immersion, they're like, I mean,
yesterday, they were on fire. I mean, they were on fire the whole time. And they were like,
this is exactly why we signed up to come to Augsburg. We want more of this type of
learning. This, we learned so much in this class, not only about like, from women who have
been prostituted or in the life, we call it from people who are living on the streets, straight
from their stories, from going to jail and talking about mass incarceration, and how it's
The New Jim Crow, I mean, just really looking at root causes for things and really
engaging in ways that we don't often do, because of the relationships that people have in
the department. Because of the opportunities that lay about. I, the students were like, We
want more of this. This was remarkable. And this is why we came to Augsburg and these
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are students in the FNP track of the DNP. And so as we think about being it more
accessible to people across the country, I'm also fearful of losing some of the
opportunities that I think are so unique to us and what make us Augsburg. So, I guess,
being that, you know, when I started, I took over a lot of what Ruth had been establishing
as far as experiential learning. And so it was kind of my introduction into teaching in
higher ed. And so now that that's kind of been the way I've learned it, going and teaching
in traditional formats, which I've had, I also enjoy, but there's a piece of it, that really
allows students to dig deeper, and synthesize together and process and push each other
and push I mean, their students pushing each other in such beautiful ways around biases,
and, and doing better. And they were doing the work themselves just because of the
challenges that they saw together. I mean, it was, I just really hope we don't forget too
much about that as we think about being more online. But it's also the world we're in,
everything's moving online, and I'm not sure that programs will continue on that don't
kind of move in this direction, at least partially. So yeah. And the other piece, I would think
I would want to make sure, you know, to add to is thinking about the model. And the
model of nursing practice that was established at the Health Commons really was driven
by the students, the students and faculty created it together. And it is a remarkable
journey to see where it's landed, and how much it's grown. So making sure that people
know about that article and, and how it was really co created together. And, you know,
also thinking about how much we've worked with disable center for democracy and
citizenship and working with Harry Boyd, and Dennis Donovan and Elaine Eschenbacher
and just thinking about how, you know, we get students all excited and ramped up about
how do we create change? And how do we do all these things. But then often, we weren't
giving them the tools. So now we're trying to embed these skills in our work, doing more
with the Kettering foundation to understand how to even make it a little bit even more
intentional and, and more solidified and research the outcomes better evaluate them. So I
think that that's also a thing that will be exciting to see where it all lands as well. The
other piece that would be good to have in history, too, is thinking about this shift in name
from the nursing center to health commons I think, the nursing center. There was kind of a
couple of things, but one was that when the accreditors had come and seen that we are
calling ourselves a nursing center, they thought we would have prescriptions and because
physical assessments and a very thorough documentation, which we actually don't even
really document we do like a little glimpse of who is there as far as like little tally marks on
a list, but don't collect personal information. And we used to we used to have charts, but
people weren't giving us their real names. And it was taken away from the interactions.
And and so it seemed like is this really necessary and so we went away with it, but also
Health commons in nursing center kind of translated differently in the Somali language.
So, because of those two kinds of things, we decided that let's call it a health comments,
that's where it is. It's really a gathering space where people come and they meet as equals
in solidarity, and hopefully are trying to figure out where to go. That was a perfect always
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like that, no, but we're always trying to be open and fluid and make it be something that
everybody has ownership in. So I don't have enough students or volunteers. I'm in the
hallway, asking people who wants to help volunteer today, you could have an extra pair of
socks. And to me, those are the most beautiful days. It's everybody working together. At
the cedar Riverside health commons, you know, I think one of our things that we always
say is a long term goal would be have the community take it over, we're not even a piece
of it. And I think it's moving in that direction. There's a lot of training the trainer programs,
there's a lot of times where you, we are stepping back and letting the community dictate
the direction where it's going. And so that's beautiful. And that's exactly what we want to
do. The bilingual community liaison that we have, there are really members from the
community who have stepped up in some kind of leadership roles. And it's, it's been great.
So And along the way, we've had amazing partners, whether it's Dr. Osman or volunteers
like Martha Gisselquist, who oral histories are both down on if you get a chance to listen
to June sand is another pivotal person. So really just all this work that the department has
done has been remarkable. But also it's been remarkable because of the people that
we're able to meet along the way, and our cultural guides in many different settings.
K
Kaija Freborg 41:50
You mentioned earlier, something about the nursing model, the health commons, could
you dive into a little deeper about that?
Kathleen Clark 41:59
Sure. So in 2009, when I was first started there, what that was the first DNP class, they
were working at the health Commons and wanted to come up with a model. So really
everything about the model, the core of it is hospitality. And what does that look like? So
thinking about that in different ways. So at Central is offering a cup of coffee, it's making
eye contact, it's not it's giving people choice. It's not making people feel like they have to
share something with us in order to gain something at Cedar Riverside, it's offering Somali
tea, or San boosah, or, you know, offering just a space to gather. So really, hospitality
looks different in many different ways. And, and as in the term radical hospitality has been
used, also thinking about what that can be in that space. And really, that comes from
Gustavo, one of our cultural guides in wahaca. And some of his writings in grassroots post
modernism, and really thinking about how do gather as equals, how do you get away from
just being a helper or being a professional in the moment to connect How do you really
think about welcoming each other thinking about I always love Lillian Wald the right and,
and also thinking about Jane Addams and the Hull house, really, it's a it's a house where
everyone is in helping and health matters. But also we can all be health providers, you
don't have to have 22 years of college to be an expert in the house. But so really, that
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whole being together and, and be reciprocity, if you will. So that's kind of at the center of
everything, and acknowledging the need is kind of the first step. And let's see if I can get
these all right from the top of my head, but like, we think about acknowledging the need
really as like, okay, here's the pair of socks, take them, they're yours, you have to tell us
why you don't have to stay. We're here if you ever want to talk. So attending to the
struggle would be you know, thinking more like, okay, you know, as people take a little
more risk and sharing their a little bit more of their story, or maybe they're just gonna
come to the nurse and ask for band aids, but kind of that little little piece of, I'm taking
risk to be here and ask for a little bit more. And we're able to do that. And then really
uplifting the strengths that people have so affirming the strength. So when they're sitting
down and talking about all the different places that they have to go that day and
checking their blood pressure, well, how do you manage all of that and then you're still
going to check your blood pressure. That's remarkable. Tell me more why you care so
much about your blood pressure and Do you hope we can do? Or what's what, you know,
letting them kind of dictate where the conversation goes. Ruth always said, try not to ask
questions. Try not to fix it. Try to get out of that think way of thinking. And it's really hard
to do when you're so scripted to be the professional. So really being in those moments
and really listening hard, and really being able to tell people like, That's remarkable. I
don't know how you do that. And then really, the compliment at the end is how do we
walk along beside each other in a journey. And that doesn't happen with everyone. But
when it does happen, it is beautiful. And so right now, for example, the women's group has
kind of resurfaced, which is so great. So the women are really, there's a graduate student
working with them. And but the women are really dictating what it looks like what's
offered, what's offered, when it's offered, and how it's offered. And so, but supporting the
women who want to offer a space for women only together and, and being able to be
there for that is it's beautiful.
K
Kaija Freborg 46:06
So well, thank you for your time in this very, very, very rich account of the history of the
Department of Nursing at Augsburg University, we really appreciate your insights, all the
hard work and experience that you've brought to the table and have really impacted not
only the students expert experience, but the me, you know, shifting the nursing
department to be something much, much more critical and complex and, you know,
something that's needed so in regards to the program, so thank you.
Kathleen Clark 46:48
Thank you.
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Show less
Oral History Interview with Janet
Labrecque (2020)
Tue, 3/9 4:51PM
20:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nursing, nurses, bev, fairview, department, rocking chair, hospital, faculty, university,
work, center, nursing program, teaching, started, people, open, inspirations, stories, wonderful
... Show more
Oral History Interview with Janet
Labrecque (2020)
Tue, 3/9 4:51PM
20:57
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nursing, nurses, bev, fairview, department, rocking chair, hospital, faculty, university,
work, center, nursing program, teaching, started, people, open, inspirations, stories, wonderful
SPEAKERS
Kathleen Clark, Janet Labrecque
Kathleen Clark 00:00
So thank you for joining us today for this oral history project on the Department of Nursing
at Augsburg University. My name is Katie Clark. I'm the director of the health commons
and assistant professor, could you please introduce yourself for the recording and tell us a
little bit about your connection to the university?
J
Janet Labrecque 00:19
Well, I'm Janet Labrecque. I am Bev's partner. I've known Bev since 76, just before she
became a faculty member in 77. So my connection to Augsburg and the nursing center
and School of Nursing is thrilled to have her friends on the faculty.
Kathleen Clark 00:44
And just for as this will be recorded in the library for a long time. Will you tell us a little bit
about who Bev is.
J
Janet Labrecque 00:54
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Who Bev is. Bev is a just a wonderful individual who has a big heart who found her way as
a nurse and from there became a nursing instructor and faculty member and head of the
department and founder of the nursing center and started the Rochester nursing program
in Rochester and helped develop the transcultural nursing curriculum and was very active
in university on many levels.
Kathleen Clark 01:46
So she was the founder of the nursing department?
J
Janet Labrecque 01:48
No, she wasn't the founder. there when she was hired, there was a department head but
the department was going through a real bumpy times. And after about a year as
Professor, she became the department chair. And I understand that she turned the
department around very nicely. I say her that is the reputation that she has.
Kathleen Clark 02:21
Yes. One more thing before we continue as I just want to make sure our confirm that you
can send to be interviewed and having an interview stored at Augsburg university library
which will be made available to the public?
J
Janet Labrecque 02:36
I do.
Kathleen Clark 02:38
Wonderful. So, can you tell me a little bit about how that ended up at Augsburg? Do you
know why she chose to come to Augsburg? Um, well, she was she was teaching a course. A
couple of courses at North Dakota State University. She and somebody else use the
puddle jump, really small plane and go to some place in North Dakota. I think North
Dakota or South Dakota, it's in her I should have brought it. But and I think that got a little
old. And you know, Bev is she was lifelong is a lifelong Lutheran. And I do think that
Augsburg with its Lutheran connection was appealing to her in this faculty position open
and do your applied and they don't. That's awesome. And so where did she grow up?
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J
Janet Labrecque 03:46
She grew up. She was born in St. Paul. But they moved around quite a lot. Her father was
in the grocery business you'd like to be the manager of produce and they kind of move on
from one place to the other. So she grew up in St. Paul and Rochester. And then
Minneapolis, and she raised her family in St. Louis Park.
Kathleen Clark 04:14
And then do you know what kind of nurse was she? Was she ever in the hospital or was
she isn't she?
J
Janet Labrecque 04:20
Her first nursing was in Hennepin County in the open wards back back then. Yes, that's
how she started.
Kathleen Clark 04:34
Do you know why she wanted to be a nurse?
J
Janet Labrecque 04:46
How she never told me exactly. But she by nature is just an innately caring individual and
Back in the 50s, when she worked Sorry, go back to school for Bachelor of Science in
Nursing was one of the professions that women got into. So, but she also told me once
that she liked the idea. She wanted to be a nurse who was all who was a doctor that kind
of fascinated her. So but the nurse, the underlying the nurse, but, you know, she wanted to
have achieved that academic level of now to expertise.
Kathleen Clark 05:46
So where did she go to school?
J
Janet Labrecque 05:48
She, she went through University of Minnesota.
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Kathleen Clark 05:53
Was that her PhD?
J
Janet Labrecque 05:54
For for Bachelor of Science and a master's in psych nursing, and then a PhD in speech
communication.
Kathleen Clark 06:03
Wow. So she was a psych nurse.
J
Janet Labrecque 06:06
She was a psych nurse at Fairview on the adolescent unit.
Kathleen Clark 06:09
Interesting.
J
Janet Labrecque 06:10
That's how she got over to Fairview hospital. And then she worked closely with one of the
chaplains there, Bill Miller. Yeah. And, and they invited her to be on their advisory board.
And that's how I met her. interested.
Kathleen Clark 06:32
So how long did you work in the adolescent psych unit?
J
Janet Labrecque 06:40
I'd say four or five years.
Kathleen Clark 06:43
Wow. Interesting. So when she came to Augsburg insists she already has her PhD at that
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point, then
J
Janet Labrecque 06:52
no, she was working on her PhD.
Kathleen Clark 06:56
And when she took over the department, she hadn't had any other experiencing a being a
chair of any academic program. Wow. And so how long was she chaired? You remember?
J
Janet Labrecque 07:09
she? She retire... She was 70 when she retired? So 77 to 01. So she was chair probably 78
maybe 78 to 2001. Wow. Huge, stood a lot. And that was years ago. I mean, it was it was
good.
Kathleen Clark 07:37
So when she started out, was the Was it the transition period between the Fairview
deaconess program into Augsburg to remember? Or was it a BSN program? The BSN
completion? Or do you remember what program was there at that time when we really
started or was it? It wasn't the Masters?
J
Janet Labrecque 07:58
It was the transition. It was, you know, nurses who had their diploma diploma. And so they
were there to get their bachelor's?
Kathleen Clark 08:13
Wow. And then in her time, she started the master's program began in leadership and
transculture.
J
Janet Labrecque 08:20
Right.
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Kathleen Clark 08:21
So what drew her to be do was transcultural nursing, an emphasis for her all along or did
that come after she started the nursing center to remember which came first or they're
both kind of
J
Janet Labrecque 08:37
No, I think that came came later on. I think it was one of those things that was brewing.
Sure. I that that experience of Hennepin County, the wards there, there are lots of
homeless people, lots of minority people. And I do think that somehow that was an eye
opener for her. And was, I think one of the inspirations for the trans cultural sort of
wanting, wanting to equip nurses with the capacity to relate to and provide care that was
appropriate.
Kathleen Clark 09:31
So what was how did the nursing center are now called the Augsburg central health
Commons? How did that come about? Do you remember any of that?
J
Janet Labrecque 09:41
Well, Bill, Bill Miller pastor Bill Miller, who was at Fairview when he left Fairview hospital.
He was a pastor here at Central So, Bev had been mulling over this idea of nurses serving
the homeless, again, theme. And so she called him up one day and, and talk to him about
this dream she had about a nursing center run by nurses. And she was very clear that she
wanted it to be run by nurses because she wanted she, you know, she's believed strongly in
the profession of nurses and that nurses were could be were independent practitioners.
And this is long, big kind of before the nurse practitioners started. But she wanted this
model of nurses providing the care without not under the direction of a medical director.
She wanted it nursing centered, community centered. So So Bill agreed, and he found a
space down there, he actually came in and painted the walls on. He did, he did, and he
got furniture, and the two of them set up the place. But they had to, they had to convince
a number of people here at Central. There were there was a constituency here that were
concerned about, you know, having the homeless in and out of this place, and what you
know, the kind of the typical fears people have of street people. And so gradually, they,
you know, let go of their fears and or supportive of it. That place was also open on Sunday
for blood pressures and that kind of stuff for the parishioners as well. So that kind of
helped pave the way. But it was open on Monday, Thursday and Sunday. And Bev was
here. Lots of the time, I said to her one day. I said, You know, I think you'd be perfectly
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happy if you took your bed and slept down there was between teaching, running the
department and being at the nursing center. You know, I hardly saw her. You know, she
was like this ball of energy. And she just loved it here. She really did. She would tell me,
you know, come and tell me stories about some of the clients. They had their regulars that
came in, and then they had a big rocking chair. Did you ever see that rocking chair?
Kathleen Clark 13:01
I did.
J
Janet Labrecque 13:01
Yeah. And people would come in, and sometimes that the people that would come in and
just sit in the rocking chair, and then sit for a bit and then they'd get up and go, they didn't
need anything, but they just wanted to come in the rocking chair. The other thing she liked
a lot about it was hearing the stories of these people, you know, when they were soaking
their feet and having their feet cleaned and you know, refreshed, they would kind of open
up about their life. Wonderful. Yeah. Would you was a cooling closet happening when we
went to open? And they had a worship service? And I don't know if they had a meal at that
point. I'm not sure.
Kathleen Clark 13:51
And so as it open did she has, do you remember? Did she bring students in right away? Or
did she kind of feel it out herself first and then bring in students?
J
Janet Labrecque 14:02
I'm not sure. But I know she didn't do it alone. I know, there were faculty. Who didn't I don't
think if they didn't come right away. I'm sure it was not long after.
Kathleen Clark 14:17
Well, and now 27 years. Yeah,
J
Janet Labrecque 14:20
I know. So. Yeah.
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Kathleen Clark 14:23
So she's, she's organizing the department. She's teaching classes.
J
Janet Labrecque 14:29
Right.
Kathleen Clark 14:29
And she's here.
J
Janet Labrecque 14:30
Yep. Wow. And then so they're focusing on the BSN. But then the graduate program came
about Do you remember any of the reasons why she thought that would be a good fit or
how that came the master's transcultural or even leadership and leadership? Well, leaders
you know, she she believed in nursing as She was a strong proponent of the nursing
profession and believe that nurses could make a valuable contribution to health care.
While they were able to take leadership positions in hospitals and clinics and other places,
and so, so as a way to prepare for that she was big on the leadership piece. And the trans
cultural, I think she just believed that, you know, as the city got more diverse. And you
know, the, the challenges with offering nursing care to multi ethnic and multicultural
population was more and more important, and that she felt that if there were nurses
trained and transcultural, that they could be real change agents and hospitals. And her
inspirations for that, you know, Madeline leininger, you know, of that, you've heard that
name and she was big and transcultural. Every man fee was a local, very influential nurse
leader. I mean, those two people were really inspirational to Bev and I know Bev consulted
with a number of times.
Kathleen Clark 16:46
Wow. Is there any stories that you remember Bev sharing, in her time at Augsburg that
really stuck with you whether it was at the helm comm or a nursing center or teaching or
your department?
J
Janet Labrecque 17:04
Well, she told me where that one. The nursing department was started and it was started
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not long before about came. So it was it was still in its infancy, so to speak, when Bev
came that there were professors on the faculty that were very skeptical and really did not
want the nursing program because they, they didn't think that Augsburg was a place for
vocational training, and that the nursing program was would dilute the purity of the of the
liberal arts at Augsburg. And yeah, there was the there was a strong but vocal minority
that were very critical. And but Bev didn't argue with them. She just move forward. And
she said one day, one of the professors who was the most vocal, one of the most vocal
critics came into her office. And he said, I want you didn't know that. Among my students,
the best students I have in my class, my classes, other nursing students. She was so happy
to hear that. She wasn't she probably said something like, well, I'm really not surprised.
Anyway. Yeah. That's wonderful. Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 18:49
Well, I'm just so great to her grateful to be able to hear kind of the story of how Bev came
to be at Augsburg. And obviously, the foundational work for we're sitting in the health
common space right now. Is there anything you want the world to know? Before we end
this world history interview?
J
Janet Labrecque 19:24
That she loved her time. She loved being an expert. And she was very supportive,
supported and influenced by her faculty. She chose good faculty that worked well
together. And, you know, part of what inspired bad the Superman strong feminist You
know, not a Gloria Steinem in the street in your face. But she that feminist theory, feminist
theology really informed but what was an underpinning to what she wanted to do with for
students, she felt energized by empowering women to to reach their potential personally
and professionally. And that gave her a great deal of the light. You know, she caught
taught a course in feminist rhetoric rhetoric here.
Kathleen Clark 20:39
I did not know that.
J
Janet Labrecque 20:40
Yes, she did. I need to. Yeah. Yeah.
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Kathleen Clark 20:45
Wonderful. Well, thank you for your time and your work on this can complete our interview.
So I appreciate you being here.
J
Janet Labrecque 20:53
Thank you.
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Show less
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
Tue, 3/9 3:37PM
1:05:50
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, nursing, nurses, bev, year, classes, program, rochester, credits, curriculum,
college, taught, moved, south dakota state, people, master, degree, director, minnesota
SPEAKERS
Joyce Miller, Sue... Show more
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
Tue, 3/9 3:37PM
1:05:50
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, nursing, nurses, bev, year, classes, program, rochester, credits, curriculum,
college, taught, moved, south dakota state, people, master, degree, director, minnesota
SPEAKERS
Joyce Miller, Sue Nash
J
Joyce Miller 00:07
Well, good afternoon Sue Nash. I'm so excited to be with you today. Thank you for joining
us at our project for our oral history at Augsburg University nursing. My name is Joyce
Miller. And I am Chair of the Nursing Department. Could you please introduce us for the
recording and tell us about your history with the University.
S
Sue Nash 00:33
My name is Sue Nash and I came here when the original program was being developed.
I'm part of the first second year faculty teaching faculty. I came here from South Dakota
State School of Science. Their program had a program here in Minneapolis, and they
closed our program back in the end of 76. And several of us were recruited to come on
over to Augsburg and be part of the second year so I wasn't here during the first year,
Donna Peterson who was the director at Lutheran deaconess, over at Fairview. When they
close the Fairview program, she became the first director here at Augsburg, and was our
program considered a day school or it was 100% Day School, you had to be employed a
minimum of six months, you had to be working full time. Coming into it, it had to be that
you had at least six months of full time employment under your belt. And with Day School
only. We didn't switch to weekend college until several years later, when St. Kate's
developed a weekend program. And we found our numbers dropping. And that Rick Toni
story. He developed weekend college and moved us to weekend college because it was
thoughts of closing the nursing program because our numbers were so low.
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
Page 1 of 27
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J
Joyce Miller 02:12
So our original program that was was a generic or traditional BSN program or
S
Sue Nash 02:20
no always we are the first completion program or our aunts who wanted to BSN in the
state of Minnesota. And we were we were the only one that that was designed with them
in mind. So we never had a generic program. The only generic program was located
across the street at Fairview with Lutheran deac, which was a three year diploma
program. And they were closing out the diploma programs. And Augsburg used to provide
the electives for the Lutheran deaconess students so they would get their English and
chemistry and science over here at Augsburg, so we had this long term relationship with
them. And Donna Peterson was the director of that program. Okay, so when they came
here, she moved her program or her vision over here.
J
Joyce Miller 03:09
Okay. Very interesting. Very, and that was in what year? Did you say it? Well,
S
Sue Nash 03:14
I started in 77. So that would have been 76 was the first class to begin. And we were not
accredited at that point. I mean, we were brand new program. And, and then, I think was
Pam Larson was the other faculty member thing. And Donna, and then they recruited
Beth Nillson and myself from Augsburg from not to Augsburg from South Dakota State
because they haven't I taught at South Dakota State.
J
Joyce Miller 03:49
Very interesting. Well, before we actually continue, I just want to make sure to confirm that
you consent to be interviewed, and to have this interview stored at Augsburg University
and be made available to the public.
S
Sue Nash 04:05
Absolutely.
J
Joyce Miller 04:07
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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So let's instead of going switching from Augsburg a little bit, let's tell us a little bit about
yourself. And you want to tell us about perhaps where you grew up and a little bit about
your family.
S
Sue Nash 04:18
I was raised mainly in Minnesota, born in Iowa and moved to Minnesota when I was in
fourth grade. And my mother was a nurse. My father was a Methodist minister, and we
would move every two to six years when I was growing up. And my mother had a diploma
degree and always wanted a four year college degree. So that was one of the things in the
back of my head that I always had heard about. I wanted to be an English teacher or an
archaeologist. But I decided that the teacher crunch hit around the time of when I was
headed to college in the late 60s. And I couldn't envision myself teaching eighth graders
how to diagram sentences and it really wasn't Wasn't what I wanted and my father had
wanted me to be a nurse and and that was partly the a woman can always get a job as a
nurse, you know, that's sexist kind of narrative. And what they did is my dad got me a job
in an old folks home and the nuns and he conspired to help me understand how much I
would like nursing. So they put me on a floor of very high functioning independent people.
And I would do hair and help with bathing and, and they would give me a little Madeira
wine on the on the evenings, but just very dear people who I fell in love with, and, and then
slowly they work me into physical care, and some of the more, you know, intensive things.
So I did. I went by first year of college, I went to Morehead State, and majored in English.
And like I said, I decided this wasn't going to cut it for me. I didn't want to teach eighth
graders. And so I applied to the University of Minnesota Well, I looked into and got
accepted at Hibbing Junior College, we had terrible uniforms, they were these long gray
things. And I would have had to go two more years, I had one year done. And again,
seeing what had happened with my mom. And this, my mother had tried multiple times to
go on to college, multiple times. And seeing how hard it was for the diploma grads to
move forward and to get get acknowledgement for the work that they did. I wrote to the
EU and I lied, and I said I have a two year degree from I have a year at Morehead. I have
two year degree from heavy, how many years will it take me to get my four year degree.
And they said three. And, and I was going that's six. I'm not great math. But and so I went
ahead and applied to the you right away. And I got in that that next fall, I actually had
gone to visit the EU and the acting director, Dr. Harris was was in that day and interviewed
me waved my interview process. And I needed to take a few prereqs. And I did that over
the summer, going between two towns 60 miles away, and I did my labs for biology in one
town and my chemistry labs in another town and mornings and the other towns.
J
Joyce Miller 07:21
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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Wow.
S
Sue Nash 07:22
But But I was able to get in. And so I got my my bachelor's then in that one year time. And
then during that time, I still had this thing about teaching, because I really had a heart for
teaching. And I worked my way through school, first of the old folks home where I had, I
had gone and actually my after my first communications class, my first therapeutic
communications class, I came home at Christmas, and they put me in charge of the St.
Francis. Oh, my I was night charge nurse. And it was it was it was very frightening. But But
I, I didn't have a lot of money. And back in the day of the U of M, if you took over 15
credits, you could take as many credits as you wanted, wow. And for the same fee. And so
I slammed away at classes. And I ended up having enough to graduate by the start of my
senior year. And I and they had a rule that if you're within so many credits graduating, you
could start your grad classes. So I began my grad classes in that, that spring semester, for
whatever I just took grad classes, and actually I think it was during that time. I think it
might have been in one of those classes or shortly after that I first met Beth Nillson,
because we were in a small group communications graduate class together. And years
later when our paths crossed, she remarked remember Well, she remembered me because
she's she put a note in her in her book that said Sue Nash's here decision took longer than
usual. So, so I and I, while I was in the nursing program, I worked at the Children's
rehabilitation unit at the University of Minnesota. And there was an LPN. And we worked
with children, who were there having all sorts of long term disability issues and treatment
and there was an LPN that used to terrorize the young children. She would if they like their
sandwiches cut in diamond, she would cut them. Yeah, lateral lines. They like to open
anytime She don't want to Yes. And it was it was painful to watch. And it was it was during
my senior year that I decided I was going to go back into teaching and I would teach
nursing to try To prevent people like that, from doing things like that, that's awesome. So,
so I went smack dab right on into my master's, finished it while I finished my bachelor's
and and met my husband during that year. He was finishing up and moving and I had a
deadline. So I went through. And, again, because you can take more credits, I slammed
away I got that Master's done in in 14 months.
J
Joyce Miller 10:30
Wow. And that was an education. Correct.
S
Sue Nash 10:32
Your nursing education was a double major back then you had to have kazillion credits. It
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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was in child rearing. They had child rearing childbearing. And so I had an educational
track and a pediatric family nursing track. So I had 64 grad credits by the time I was done.
J
Joyce Miller 10:53
So well, so let's kind of come back to Augsburg and say and kind of pick up that story,
then about how you ended up back at Augsburg twice. I understand.
S
Sue Nash 11:07
Yeah. Well, we, my husband and I, we got married. We moved out to Ohio, he decided to
go to medical school and we got came back to Minnesota here. And I started teaching at
I taught at Ohio State but then I came and I taught at the south South Dakota State
School science had no South Dakota State School and from Brookings, okay, they had a
focus here, and there's a surplus. They were in dorms over by where the stadium is now.
We had a building and our kids would, our students would go to the children's hospitals
and med surge had it was a way for them to get a broader clinical than they couldn't in
Brookings. There was that program was being closed because a lot of the South Dakota
students were staying in the state of Minnesota. And the legislature was upset about it, the
South Dakota legislature, so they closed our program at the same time as this program
was opening. And so several of us apply. And Bev Nillson and I were hired. And we were
still doing the curriculum, we were still working for accreditation, and we had the second
year. So I taught preceptorship. And it it has morphed into what is the leadership program
now the leadership class 405. But I was a preceptor teacher, and and it was much more
hands on back then what we did, because we were trying to get a credit in was a very
different accreditation process than today or wait, if it was we were an inab, because
J
Joyce Miller 12:50
Oh, sure.
S
Sue Nash 12:52
The the other one really wasn't around that much. So it was in inab. But with
accreditation. Most of the schools require the students to retake everything. And it was
our philosophy that the nursing classes should be recognized. And the other issue became
became the electives that students had taken at three are programs that many diploma
programs would bring, like the chemistry teacher from St. Thomas or Augsburg or
Wheaton College and bring them on campus teach the exact same course. But they
wouldn't. It wouldn't be accredited because it wasn't offered through Augsburg or
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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Wheaton or so the students were taking English and sociology and psychology from
professors who taught those classes. But they but they weren't getting any money that
the college wasn't paying. They weren't paying tuition. And so so they were getting hurt.
And then we had this whole thing with the LPN to your programs for your programs. And
what we decided was we would use the state board as the test proved that they had their
nursing courses.
J
Joyce Miller 14:15
Okay,
S
Sue Nash 14:16
sure. And that decision was extremely controversial. I don't know anyone nationwide who
was doing that at the time, but it was a rigorous state board test, especially back in the
day. Yeah. And it covered all areas. But we also knew we had to have other tests. So we
designed we had a we had a skills lab and it is where the
J
Joyce Miller 14:42
And I was going to say where's the
S
Sue Nash 14:44
main hall
J
Joyce Miller 14:45
We own old main we own all the first floor of Old Main was an old Main or Memorial.
That's my Memorial
S
Sue Nash 14:55
Memorial we on the first floor of it till the T to the bathrooms okay. There were dormitories
up above.
J
Joyce Miller 15:01
Yes.
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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S
Sue Nash 15:02
And then on that first floor at the way end, which was
J
Joyce Miller 15:06
the President, I think was why the President is still there today. Okay, that was a skills lab.
S
Sue Nash 15:12
So the students had to show they could make beds. We had IVs, we, you know, I mean,
they, they, it was a skills lab where we tested out skills. And then we did a therapeutic
communications test. And I think you took you took that when you came to Augsburg, we
were still that was the one test that was still thanks. So in the in the packet, and Beth
Nillson had been getting her doctorate in communications, it was her her love. And our
curriculum was a holistic curriculum, and she had created a nursing theory of feeling
states that as, as nurses, and we work with people, if we can help them move in their
feeling state to feeling positive, and self aware, and that they would be healthier. So our
curriculum was built around a bit, the feeling state theory, and, and this holistic approach.
So she felt that one of the big areas between the two year grants and the four year grants
is, is this idea of therapeutic communications and, and helping move from telling to, to
interacting with and then as needed confronting. So some of some of our classes were,
were based on, I'm not therapy, because that was not a nurses role, right? But definitely
therapeutic and perhaps challenging at times. And so she created this whole set, and we
all participated in it. vignettes in the skills lab, we had patients, pretend patients in the
skills lab, and then we would set up these different vignettes. And there would be right and
wrong responses. And our potential students had to take this skills test and
communications to see how they were doing. That still existed. Yeah. And in will five,
when, when we before you before you took three or five to enter into the program. You
had to take that, that test? Yeah, because that was one of the entry points. And so we
went we we, Donna Peterson had had helped set up the curriculum and, and the core
curriculum was modeled after some stuff coming out of California at Palo Alto, California.
Okay. So we had we had our terminal objectives and our outcome objectives. And then we
were working on trying to make everything fit in these classes. And And honestly, I can't
remember the numbers, but I know the numbers kept changing, you know, there was when
you look back, right, some of our classes, right and leadership became the preceptorship
became a leadership because leadership was the things that we felt the two year to four
year really needed. We can back up as an understanding of nurse theory and the
theoretical grounding the communication and having a broader skill base, and effective
therapeutic communication, leadership than the leadership be an expanded role. And and
ours was a preceptorship originally where they would go out and do project based in a
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clinical setting. Somewhere, we went all over the Twin Cities, we were at Stillwater prison,
we were at Gillette and environmental health. And, and I would go out and meet with my
students several times throughout the semester, and their preceptors traveling all around
Dakota County Public Health, Waconia, it was, it was really fun. Some of it I was doing
pregnant, which was a little scary when I realized how quickly I deliver. But I didn't know
that at the time. But that but the students had really hands on experiences. And then
public health, because that was an area. And we wanted our nurses to be able to
graduate and get a public health certificate. And so you needed to have a set number of
clinical hours public health. So our clinical hours were the preceptorship and the public
health. And we proved the skill lab with the skills lab. We could we could prove that they
had the settlement that the psychomotor skills we did require seems to me sometime in
the air that they take at some point they had to be taking that, you know, like the nurses
aide.
J
Joyce Miller 19:54
Oh, sure. Sure,
S
Sue Nash 19:55
sure. But by knowing that they came to us as professional nurse, I used the word
professional, they were not, they would not have been called professional at the time. as
nurses who were in practice, practice practicing nurses, they brought that skill base and
they had to have passed their boards. So we we had our nln program, we work diligently
on this report, we got the the threads to match and the level objectives and terminal
objectives. We went in, put our stuff into the nln, we had the the report, and they turned us
down. Wow. And so Chuck Anderson, Dr. Anderson, Bev Nillson, and myself
J
Joyce Miller 20:37
and Chuck Anderson was the president was the test and at the top of the universe, or
colleagues back
S
Sue Nash 20:41
then we were, we were Yep. And he was actually in this building in that corner office over
there. And nobody can see me but kitty corner, they Augsburg flew us to New York. And
we went and stayed overnight at some hotel, and we had a meeting, and the three of us
went in to the nln. board. And the board sat at this table, and we're at the one end and all
of these 30 people or so. And we had to defend. And it was the main issue was why we
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were giving them credit for what they were doing. And part of let me back up to what we
had bargained with, with the college. And our college was this block grant. Because we
had two year nurses in three year nurses from all different kinds of programs, all different
kinds of programs. We,
J
Joyce Miller 21:43
with a diploma degree
S
Sue Nash 21:45
with a diploma degree or AA degree, okay, we didn't want to hurt our diploma students by
getting the AA but you can make a better case for anywhere in North Central accredited
programs.
J
Joyce Miller 22:00
Correct.
S
Sue Nash 22:00
But but that diploma were off in these amazing programs, teaching amazing nurses how
to do amazing things, but they weren't bothering to get them accredited. So we decided
we would do a block grant for the nursing curriculum, regardless of whether you took two
years or three years. You know, we're sorry about that. But the other fact that we were
working with is a major in Augsburg College was generally 14 courses, might have been, 15
courses, some may even be 12. But we went with think we went with a four, Count 14, you
have to have your upper division bigger than your more equal to your lower division. So
our black grant, I think we went for seven and I think it dropped to six. Is it six now? The
black grant? What is?
J
Joyce Miller 23:01
Excuse me? Um, well, the total number of credits are you talking about are the number of
nursing courses and religion?
S
Sue Nash 23:11
No the number of nursing courses is still..?
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J
Joyce Miller 23:13
Okay, so we have seven nursing courses.
S
Sue Nash 23:16
And then how many undergrad blocked grant?
J
Joyce Miller 23:18
One vocation for life course right now. And we started out we're up to 32 credits for the
block grant, but we were we we jumped we were like 24. And then we pushed for 28.
S
Sue Nash 23:38
Yes.
J
Joyce Miller 23:38
And now recently, within the last couple of years, we've pushed up 32.
S
Sue Nash 23:42
So 32 and those are those are hourly credits. Yeah, the course so we're talking a block rate
of seven, it's seven times four, you know, right would be what that block grant was, but we
had to keep it. We had to nln was very clear, our upper division had to be more than the
lower division. Sure, but that hurt the diploma grads, because they came with nothing.
buku
J
Joyce Miller 24:11
Yeah. A lot of classes. Yeah, but not college credit. Not college credit. Right. But
S
Sue Nash 24:16
our our best compromise was to go with this block grant. That Yes, it hurt some others.
Then the other piece of it in the college. way it works is you need to have somebody for
residency, right? So even if someone did come in with a lot more, you still have to be
stamped as a resident of our college, right? So it didn't it didn't matter if we gave too
many more credits away because it still have to take credits here anyhow. And we felt it
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was better to take from us in the nursing department, then the humanities or the science
or why let those departments have have our student credits
J
Joyce Miller 24:59
right So,
S
Sue Nash 25:00
so that was that was the argument and we went before the inab plan. And actually, it was
Bev and I who did the talking? Dr. Bev who wasn't a doctor at that time, was very, very
passionate and articulate. And we were able to help them understand that this this board
that we take the state board is worthy of recognition and validation of extensive
coursework, and we were getting them all their coursework, correct. We're still
shortchanging and, and the, the diploma students would still have to take the coursework,
the chemistry, the science, and that wasn't our fault. And it was too bad. But that's that's
back at Lutheran deaconess, although Lutheran deaconess in their defense did couple at
Augsburg. So they were doing it the right way. But I think of places like Wheaton, in
Wheaton, Illinois, we had students who came in wonderful, wonderful transcripts, but none
of it was accredited because all the all the classes have been taught by Wheaton
professors, but none of them were validated and credited. And part of that, to be fair, is
they wanted to give the teach us chemistry course, that was a health related chemistry
course. So really wasn't a Gen Gen Ed. chemistry course. And, and so it isn't quite the
same with my students. But in response to our going there, they approved us and we have
been continually approved and accredited since since that 7870.
J
Joyce Miller 27:00
Wow. So So our program at Augsburg has been, quote, BSN completion. I don't know if it
was called
S
Sue Nash 27:14
that. Yeah, yeah. We call it the BSN. Okay, really started in about 70. Our first class
graduated in 78 and 78. Spring of 78. Okay. And I can't remember how many students I'm
sure you have the records of that we had, we had to two sections of preceptorship and
two, you know. And maybe, and Pam Larson was the public health person. Okay. And, and
honestly, I can't fully I think I taught trans. And I may have taught theory, I know I taught
theory later when the second time around. And what what I heard I, we moved away, my
husband started residency. And so in 1980, in 1980, we moved away. Think which baby was
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being born. He finished medical school, we moved down to to Durham, and he went to
Duke. And then during that time, so in the early 80s, St. Kate started their head on
competition,
J
Joyce Miller 28:34
because because they were the only ones were we the only the only BSN completion
program in Minnesota,
S
Sue Nash 28:42
I think. So the U of M, allowed students to test. They made them take it off. They made
them take it off. Repeat it. And then I don't know when Bethel started their program, but
they came later. That program came later. St. Kate's is the one that that's you know, they
had a four year program. Right. And so they created a weekend college in the early 80s.
And it hit our numbers big time. And I think Metropolitan medical had something going.
And then Then there were the startup of the external degrees. So read what New York
external degree programs
J
Joyce Miller 29:23
Oh, sure. You know, so those
S
Sue Nash 29:25
so and so those were pop ups. And Scholastica started something eventually. But I don't
know when that you know, I wasn't I wasn't around, but in in 19, in the early 1980s, and Rick
Toni would would have a grasp of that way better than me. There was talk by then, Donna
had left and became the director. And Bev finished her doctorate in communications.
And, and one of the things about Beth Nillson that I just treasured was in working even
with our own colleagues. Ah, there was this thing about where where pseudo science,
we're not here, here at Augsburg. We're sort of second class at times. And and she always
said that we were lived liberal arts, that nursing is lived liberal arts.
J
Joyce Miller 30:17
And Bev said that,
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S
Sue Nash 30:19
yeah, yeah. Bev understood that the humanity that this college supports and the holistic
approach of and multicultural, which evolved into Bev understood that if you take
anthropology and the liberal arts and live it out, then we are the front runners. We're the
interface
J
Joyce Miller 30:43
Sure
S
Sue Nash 30:44
of that interaction, because we deal with the existential question, you know, in, in the
physical realm, every day,
J
Joyce Miller 30:55
right,
S
Sue Nash 30:56
and what more impact is the liberal arts education than when you hold the mother's hand
as she faces having a child in ICU at Children's, you know, or telling having to tell
someone that there's no more immunotherapy and now it's over
J
Joyce Miller 31:17
right.
S
Sue Nash 31:17
So, so having that bevs vision, really, I think brought us into that next level. And, and we
moved again, I was gone at that time, we moved to the weekend college model. And that
was in the, I think, in 80s, sometime sometime between 83 and 85.
J
Joyce Miller 31:41
Okay. Okay.
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S
Sue Nash 31:43
And we had moved down to Rochester. My husband and I finished his his surgical
internship year moved to Rochester. And we were, we were living there. And what year did
you start at Augsburg?
J
Joyce Miller 32:05
98 when it came to Rochester?
S
Sue Nash 32:09
Okay, so in 98, I was approached by Rick Toni. Yeah, in the spring of 98. And he asked me,
if I would, and maybe Beth Nillson, too, because Bev was, was the chair at that time. They
asked me if I would consider coming back to Augsburg, and I had loved teaching at
Augsburg. At the time, I had gone back to school, within some of those journeys, right and
had gotten another masters. My master's was in pediatrics and Family Nursing. I went
back and got another Master's in parent education. And I was teaching at that early
childhood family ed program in Rochester, and and truly loved loved that I didn't have to
grade students. Unless they were court ordered and not that's a different issue. I did. I
avoided that as soon as possible. But so I really was hesitant in at first I told them, no, but I
recruited Mary Beth gay. And Mary Beth had been teaching at RCTC. She has a pediatric
background. She's a clinical specialist, and I recruited her she was interested. And then I
got the call from either Rick or Babs saying, we have 65 students.
J
Joyce Miller 33:30
Can you can I was one of them. You were one
S
Sue Nash 33:32
of them. And so we, we, I came on board. And yeah, we and I was for a while I was working
two jobs because I do days. That's right. And then, and then I also finished my doctorate. I
thought I'd go and I had worked on a doctorate. In between that before in adulthood. I'd
looked into the nursing program one and then long story short, I went back and got my
doctorate in early childhood family, right. Yeah.
J
Joyce Miller 34:05
I remember I remember having you in. I think one of the classes that I was in and you were
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finishing your doctorate, and we celebrate it together. We went out for dinner after class.
Cuz here's 2001 was that the year? Yeah. Okay.
S
Sue Nash 34:21
Yeah, so that was that was pretty special. Getting that and, and then sometime in those
80s, and that's when Cheryl leuning was at Augustana. And again, she could speak more
to that. We've, they developed the habit developed a nursing research theory seminar
that would happen annually, it was an annual, they'd have a nurse theorist come here in
Augsburg and it was a conference. Wow. And I think, Madeline Leininger at least once I
think and and some of the other You know, Newman was at the you. Yeah. Watson. Right,
you know, so she would have the nurse theorist. And and within that somehow she met
Cheryl.
J
Joyce Miller 35:10
And maybe the year that Madeline came.
S
Sue Nash 35:13
Yeah. And and so then they co-taught some and, and but we really, there had always
been a concern about the holistic approach and being culturally respectful and culturally
sensitive. And that was part of Bev's heart. And then Bev and I, I never, I never was part of
the comments because I was down, and I left before it, and then was in Rochester. But that
was that's true heart. And so she started the comments. And that was all on our own time.
You know, giving, right?
J
Joyce Miller 35:57
Cuz she was a member of the church, convinced them to Central Lutheran and give them
their space, and to use it for nursing experiences for nurses to work with the homeless.
S
Sue Nash 36:08
Yeah, yeah.
J
Joyce Miller 36:10
No, that's awesome. So when the program came to Rochester, and you and Mary Beth
kind of started that, were those the same classes that were taught in Minneapolis?
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S
Sue Nash 36:24
Oh yes,yes, it was a it was. So the
J
Joyce Miller 36:27
curriculum, actually nothing changed or not?
S
Sue Nash 36:30
Well, the curriculum had evolved by that point,
J
Joyce Miller 36:32
right.
S
Sue Nash 36:33
So there was, you know, the communications class, the theory class, the leadership class
preceptorship, was dropped. The year when I first came, we still had our leadership.
Because it was sort of my thing. I like this nurses doing, doing a project. And so, so if you
had me in leadership, you were doing a project and actually, that's how we got Pine
Ridge. That's it was it was Audrey, one of my students had a had a Oh,
J
Joyce Miller 37:10
you know, where you donate, doesn't it? Well, wasn't she? Well, I
S
Sue Nash 37:15
think she had, I don't know if you know, like you to find somebody
J
Joyce Miller 37:18
sponsor somebody, somebody else.
S
Sue Nash 37:21
And so she had a bit of a relationship in Pine Ridge. And she came to me and asked if she
could create a clinical option, because I was having everybody do go out. And yeah, we
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did things with United Way. You know, we were all over the city. That's, that was sort of my
preceptorship model. And she said could could we take students to South Dakota? And I
went, sure, yeah. She helped. She helped some of the relationships. And we set that up
and took students to South Dakota State at the retreat center there with Larry, Larry
Peterson. Was the pastor and
J
Joyce Miller 38:06
three pastors later, but yes, his heart was, but he's still around. Is he still around?
Somebody was recently at Pine Ridge. And, and he came as part of a he's still doing
projects and service for the area. Yeah.
S
Sue Nash 38:24
So so out of the priests, the leadership program, we had several initiatives start we
actually, there is a free Clinic in Rochester that it was Carol, Laurie Keith, and some of her
partners. We set up that whole model and then went on to state.
J
Joyce Miller 38:44
But yeah, but
S
Sue Nash 38:47
yeah, yes, that's okay. That's a yes. But so some of the classes morphed and changed. And
I think there's a 330.
J
Joyce Miller 38:55
Yeah, under trends and issues used to be called 330. And then it switched to 300. Yeah,
whatever reason?
S
Sue Nash 39:02
Well, and sometimes when you change when we changed the objectives, we needed to
change the course numbers for clarity of tracking as students come and go. But yeah, so
So Mary Beth and I were there. And then Mary Beth got recruited away by rctc, Rochester
community college, to become their director. So that was a loss. But what happened is she
loved the Augsburg curriculum. And so together we formed a pathway, right for the
students to come. And I was I would come and talk to the leadership classes. Tell them at
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all about Augsburg and help them see how to make it work right. Libby Hazlitt was
wonderful as a as a facilitator. She was, I don't know what her role was, it was she wasn't in
nursing, but she, she would come. And she would come and help help with that. And then
regrettably Scholastica and unknown and somebody other schools found out about what
we're doing, because we were really getting a lot
J
Joyce Miller 39:10
of Yes,
S
Sue Nash 39:31
yes. And and when no one I had some really tough hurdles. They were we always said they
were our best recruiter, because they made it so difficult.
J
Joyce Miller 40:34
They did. Well, they only had classes on Wednesdays and always in the daytime. And so
you had to be part time. But yeah, other programs are kind of wising up. Yeah. After
they've kind of saw what, how we took the market in Rochester. And, you know, but we're
still have a great relationship with RCTC. And we're doing a mentoring program there
right now, where their students come to Augsburg. And so we were approached by the
director and said, they're kind of losing some students, and primarily students, like
homeschooled students that come and so they come in almost as you know, sophomores
in in the university. And they the director said, they just can't quite see themselves as
nurses. And so how do we help them see that nursing? Is this career for you? How do you
help them see that there is a great job at the end of nursing, because what was happening
as nurses are coming into their program, and they were losing them quite rapidly. And so
we now have developed this mentoring where, I don't know we'll have two or three
different nights, students from rctc will sign up, they'll come to Augsburg. We've you know,
you know, we feed them to give them a sense of community. And and then they spend
time with the nursing 300 class. And they have activities, they break into small tables,
they, the nurses can answer what it's like to be in practice. And so we're really hoping that
this is a kind of a neat recruitment tool that that students will be able to. Well, I you know,
it's funny at the last profession rctc advisory board, you know, the director, actually was
talking about this mentorship program with Augsburg and I thought, Oh, you're saying
that and you've got other people from other universities here? But yeah, so. So we still
have I mean, we still go to RCTC, and you know, yeah, bring in food, pizza and bagels, I
see that relationship,
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S
Sue Nash 43:04
you have an asset, because Augsburg cares about the students. And I think that the the
advising that we did, and helping them understand that, that we want them to succeed,
we want them to grow. And, and I and I said the word professional nurse. And when we
started, there was this big debate about is the professional nurse at the Baccalaureate
level, and I was on the state, Minnesota State Board of Nursing. Committee exploring,
should we have the definition of professional nurse be tied to the four year degree? Oh,
that's right. So I served on the committee. And what I've, and I thought back to my mother,
and what an amazing professional she was. And I thought, you know, we do such a
disservice by minimizing our sisters and brothers and belittling the, you know, they sit for
the same task. They're passing the test, sometimes better than the four year. So they're
doing something right. So let's give them the respect and dignity and dignity and
acknowledge the hard work of trying to cram all that they do in two years. Right. And so I
always use the term professional nurse. Always. And yeah, I think I think that's something
that that Augsburg does and and it's sometimes the subtle things that are so important,
because you definitely felt belittled by somebody other institutions, and why you come in
that it wasn't worthy. We did change things. I think we started making that you didn't have
to have a full time job or part time job he did. And we took brand new grads.
J
Joyce Miller 45:05
And that was that an issue.
S
Sue Nash 45:08
Brand new grads, brand new, Rusty and original, originally, they had to have
J
Joyce Miller 45:13
so many layers
S
Sue Nash 45:14
of six months to a year of, of experience. And part of it was get them while they're going,
you know, they're going to school they're used to going. So then when they what we did is
when they came, they had to have a job. They could they could take, they could come as
a brand new grad, but they had to get a job. So they were having real life experience.
Again, this this whole thing about is it valid if you're not having the right clinical
experience. And I think there's still discussion to be had I you know, and I'm a strange one
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to have it because I started my Masters while I was an undergrad and I got my I started
teaching. Before I ever had a full time I don't know that I've ever had a full time 40 hour a
week Rn job. I worked always as a as a nurse and throughout I worked at Children's in St.
Paul, I worked in the rehab unit at the University of Minnesota. I worked at Children's in
Columbus, you know, I worked at St. Mary's, but you know, the old those who can't do
teach,
J
Joyce Miller 46:23
is that right? Yeah,
S
Sue Nash 46:24
I think and I think that credibility is is an ongoing issue and, and but the critical thinking
the critic in learning to ask the questions. the right questions. That isn't about how many
bedpans you empty. Right? Yeah. That's a that's a different issue. And nursing is bigger
than then that's limited scope of just bedside I mean, we know that now from from
community and public and and transcultural nursing, you know, and, and, and where we
go with our professions.
J
Joyce Miller 47:06
So, you came into the Rochester, BSN program, Mary Beth was director Mary Beth left and
you became director Mary Beth is never the director in Rochester. No,
S
Sue Nash 47:21
no, no, she's never the director. She gets she got hired. But before we even started, I was I
was rehired back. Okay, yeah. bap was the coordinator. That was the other, but I took
over the lead right from the get okay. Yeah. Okay. Just came out. Yeah. And, and, and so I
would be the one going to Minneapolis, right. You know, with Bev. Right. And, and Rick
and I, you know, just coordinated the food and right, all of that kind of stuff. Right. Right.
So,
J
Joyce Miller 47:59
and then how were you involved? I know, Augsburg started a master's program, as well as
a doctorate program in transcultural nursing. And so I know you've had involvement with
that as well with
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S
Sue Nash 48:14
the with the masters. What we began doing this was one of the things was making sure
that the students could get master credits again, you know, that they could start their
masters if they and that was part of, you know, being on the curriculum committee. Right.
And I have I have a strong background in curriculum. I have graduate courses, because
my degree was in education. So I had taken curriculum design and and so
J
Joyce Miller 48:46
I know you mentored me.
S
Sue Nash 48:49
And look where you are, I
J
Joyce Miller 48:52
thought that what happened,
S
Sue Nash 48:54
where you're supposed to be. But so the the, the idea with the Masters, which is a
wonderful, wonderful, transcultural master's program, was was conceptualized and
brought together by the whole team here. And then we began the flipping and teaching it
from place to place and and bringing students up to the cities and students from the
cities down to here. And I think, I think one of the things that I had hoped, and again, I
probably just didn't have the energy because I was really focusing on building the
Baccalaureate, to grow people for the Masters, right, was to expand some of the
community health based rural rural outreach, like the rural kinds of stuff with the Amish
and things like that. And I think eventually somebody has happened a little bit but I think
it's a rich opportunity down there. And then Rochester is such a diverse place. What Were
you languages spoken in the schools and things, but there's a lot of opportunity there. The
doctorate I was part of that curriculum team. And, and, and looking at how we pull that I
had nothing to do with it with the nurse practitioner program, right, I was sort of after I left
and is in my area of expertise, we looked at that, and I was part of those some of those
discussions and trying to see how we could make it a holistic, transcultural. I'm one of
those people I know like in that in the research, I like the and I like the scientific and the,
the, you know, intuitive and, and I like being bilingual in that way. That would be
something that, that you would have heard my voice going, we need to keep this this year,
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too, you know. And then one of the things that I what I did do with a masters or poor baby
masters, they we had 28 or more who had fallen off the track of dissertation. And so I
came up with a plan that if they were willing to do the work, I was willing to come
alongside them. And we created the seminar to try to end the madness, and make it an
achievable, doable thing in the seminar. Well, and there was some discussion that if they
didn't finish it in the one semester they they were out. And that that wasn't that was not
good. Yeah, it wasn't good. Yeah, it was, it was painful for everyone. So I think we made it
a two semester and
J
Joyce Miller 51:45
that's still there. And that was it, it helps. I'd say 95% we still have a few people fall off
because they don't quite finish writing their master's project, but very few. We never finish
we knew had that was Yeah,
S
Sue Nash 52:06
that was an It was exciting. Incredible time to to see that. And I knew from doing my
doctorate and my dissertation, I go in and I hear see and I was I think I'd hand it to the
end and she'd go just the the redlining. Track Changes. Oh, man. And, and I and I, I firmly
believe that we wanted rigor, I was a firm believer in rigor and, and that, that we want our
students to be able to go toe to toe with any student from any other department of
nursing any other college and be proud of their degree, we didn't get degrees away and it
wasn't online, you know, go to your neighbors and have him sign off on stuff. It It was a
rigorous degree and, and learning in that master's thesis project, of what academic rigor
is, that you know, that they learn how to critique journal articles and how to how to see
rigor. I felt that was really important. And I know it's controversial. It'd be nice to also have
Ruth, you got the interview route, we have to love her dearly. You know, because she and I
would go back and forth on this. And and then I actually my kids, all of my four children all
have advanced degrees. And my daughter's degree I her thesis was from St. John's was
thin. And I thought maybe I'm just old school. So but I didn't mind when I was helping the
students helping them to mentor and
J
Joyce Miller 54:03
yeah, we want that to happen now. How long has it been since you've been retired?
S
Sue Nash 54:07
Is it six years? Six
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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J
Joyce Miller 54:08
years? Wow. Six
S
Sue Nash 54:10
years seven grandchildren. I'm at 14 and a half 14 and a half grandchildren at the age of
14 the oldest will be 15 next month but youngest is a year urine
J
Joyce Miller 54:24
Oh my I know I saw a picture recently of all your grandchildren on your back step but your
cabinet or your all men the lake and it was like this family keeps just blessing you with
more and more and more.
S
Sue Nash 54:38
Now I'll be taking two five year old cousins and granny sojourn today tomorrow and the
next day before kindergarten starts. Oh fun. Yeah, that's been really good. And I were
down in Florida. And we've found a church there that's very diverse and very multi
generational and multi race and I go With the mentoring program there, enjoy. So I work
with young moms. And
J
Joyce Miller 55:07
yeah, it's exciting. So have you considered kid always kept Augsburg nursing in your heart?
And
S
Sue Nash 55:13
it is definitely in my heart, but I'm not coming back.
J
Joyce Miller 55:21
If you're around, if you have any advice, for those of us that are still here and teaching
you, have you, given any thoughts? I know, that's kind of off the top of my head question.
You know, where do you see where do you see I partment of nursing dogs for again, I don't
know, 10 years
Sue Nash 55:45
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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S
Sue Nash 55:45
figuring out how to deal with tech, it tech, artificial intelligence, what it's going to do, I'm
concerned about watching what's happening at the bedside, with the computer being the
interactional force. And that that relational piece is nurses are under so much pressure to
do the documentation, the epic and everything else, that they're back is turned to the
patient all the time. And, and then then you do see some wonderful, wonderful examples.
But it's going to be interesting, it's going to be interesting in the shortages, as the shortage
continues how when, when the cost effectiveness, you know, I have, I have a niece, who is
a mother of an 18 year old images of mature one who just finished her two year grad
degree. Her only degree is a two year grad. And she's been trained to be supervisor Night
Nurse and OB maternity ward down in Oklahoma. And the other three women with her
also just graduated, and the four of them are going to cover nights at this hospital outside
of Muskogee. And you're going, wait a minute, you know, my I have a little granddaughter
who just was in Minneapolis children's with ICU last week, it was sort of scary. And she's
doing well. But my daughter said, Yeah, the nurse said here's her medicine and walked out
and let the mom give the medicine, my daughter get the medicine and it was like there's
this stuff going on this stuff going on? I think it's the pressure. It's too too few people too
much time. And we're going to be faced with how we stand for the profession. And stand
for the quality. Protecting our patients. Yeah. Because it's, yeah. And what's going on? And
yeah, we won't go to politics.
J
Joyce Miller 57:56
No, that's that's for sure.
S
Sue Nash 57:58
And this too, shall pass one way or the other. But no, I think I think it's the technology and
how we don't let it replace us. And onus I think that's going to be that's an interesting I
think we should be on the forefront of it. To make it human. I don't know how we do that.
J
Joyce Miller 58:23
And I agree with you in technology, many students, little mini students now that are
wanting to do their programs, more online, you know, less, you know, sit at home at night,
you know, and and we struggle with how how do you keep those relationships, you know,
if you're just doing your assignments, and you're posting them at midnight, and you're not
interacting with very many of your other students.
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S
Sue Nash 58:55
That conversation before it's, it's, there's a synergy that happens when when you say
something and I say something and you think and we need that we need that flip around
and and if they do it online, and the three of them are doing it. Maybe that's how it is that
it's a round robin online. It's handed in.
J
Joyce Miller 59:17
Right. But it would have to be synchronous online versus asynchronous and yeah, yeah. So
I I worry sometimes what's happening to some of the some of the Augsburg you know,
some of the courses that are just taught online, just totally online. What What does this
actually do for the nurses that are taking these online courses and there is no
S
Sue Nash 59:49
because we, especially the two year nurses to four year, especially that helping them
become social lized into their professional. It's a mentoring. And it isn't just the facts. It's
the heart. And I don't know and again, how they, how they find the computer at the
bedside, how they say, I'm not going to turn it back on my patient. How do they do that?
When when all of administrators are saying, you do that, and we can, we can raise a
group of nurses who go out into the community, that's all wonderful. But there's a whole
portion of our nurses who are going to go back to the bedside, and helping those nurses
understand how to how to reach out and touch. Then maybe some of it is through, you
know, the Reiki and the healing. You know, maybe we need to beef that up. The good old
fashioned back row, every Augsburg, nurse, we've dealt back. I mean, think about that just
even a shoulder and neck rub. Right? Well do it on their players. That would be that would
be an interesting, it'd be an interesting research project to have nurses do a shoulder neck
rub on peers, and how it affects the climate and colleague relationship.
J
Joyce Miller 1:01:28
Well, is there anything else that you want to share that maybe you haven't thought about?
Or
S
Sue Nash 1:01:36
I wish I could find that client goals theory that I thought I had it, I looked for it that Bev
had written it, and Bev had written it with another colleague, and have wanted to publish
it. And then she and the colleague had a falling out years ago. And so she couldn't publish
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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it, by yourself by yourself, because it was co authored.
J
Joyce Miller 1:02:00
Anyhow,
S
Sue Nash 1:02:02
doesn't matter who it was. But in there, you know, that one is gone now. But, but it was an
interesting approach, an interesting theory of how we interact with our clients, and what
our goal is, and helping them the client goal theory is that we would assess their feeling
states and use that as the indicator for how how they're progressing towards their health.
J
Joyce Miller 1:02:30
That's really interesting. I've never ever heard that. I know Bev's love was communication
and therapeutic communication. But
S
Sue Nash 1:02:40
if I can find I never heard that believe I ever got rid of that. But there are boxes and boxes
and boxes. And there there have been other people then through the years patio came
grandmother, she was from Augsburg from South Dakota with a with us and she was
pediatric she came on board and and took over she took over public health. For a while.
Helen waffle was another person they taught with and and Helen did some of the
communications and theory and some of those classes for people who are gone. There's
others that then I disappeared. Wow. No, I think that's all I wish you well.
J
Joyce Miller 1:03:26
Well, thank you so much sue for taking the time and sharing. I loved hearing the historical
background, because, you know, my association with Augsburg kind of started in 98. So I
have a pretty good history from there. But it was the 70s and the start. How we I mean, I
just think of the creativity of valve. And Bev, she has this vision. Yeah.
S
Sue Nash 1:03:56
To keep us here, because there were multiple times before the PA program. We were the
only professional program Professional Studies program on campus. Wow. And so we
were seeing as a stepchild that some they they had to have us because we brought in
Oral history with Sue Nash, 2018
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some money, you know, and it was sort of the owed to Lutheran Deac because deaconess
closed and they had these students and but, you know, we were we were an
embarrassment, I think in some ways, because we had hands on. And it was interesting
through the years, because we used to have that whole wing of that ward and then right
then we lost this. And it just kept getting smaller and smaller. And I came back and we had
two offices in a foyer
J
Joyce Miller 1:04:50
and it was like wait a minute.
S
Sue Nash 1:04:52
We're better than this. So you know because we we we are we are lived liberal arts. It's It's
It's humanities in its purest form, and worthy of a place on main floor,
J
Joyce Miller 1:05:13
right, right. Yeah, that's true. Well, thank you. Thank you. Thank
S
Sue Nash 1:05:20
you. Okay.
J
Joyce Miller 1:05:28
Here we go. That's awesome. That went beautifully. I skipped all of these health commons,
because I really wasn't your know your but that was really very interesting. I love it.
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