Ruth 0:01
My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for
the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with
with saying your name and when and where you were born?
Aisha 0:15
My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born Augu... Show more
Ruth 0:01
My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for
the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with
with saying your name and when and where you were born?
Aisha 0:15
My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born August 26th, 2001. I don't remember the exact
city I was born but I was born here in Minnesota, around Riverview or...Riverview, yeah.
Riverview, Minnesota.
Ruth 0:32
Okay. And, um, have you lived in Minnesota your whole life?
Aisha 0:38
Um, for the majority of my life, I have lived in Minnesota, but from when I was nine
months, all the way till I was about to turn four, I went—my parents took me to Guinea,
their home country, in West Africa.
Ruth 0:56
Okay. Okay. Um, so, just tell me a little bit about your family and their background.
Aisha 1:03
Um, so my immediate family is my dad, my mom, and I have an older brother, and then
it's me and then my younger brother. I'm a year and a half difference between me and
my older brother, and seven year difference with my younger brother. And then my
mom's, um, two sisters. They—they lived with us until her youngest sister got married
10 years ago, and moved to New York, but her other sister is still living with us. And
then, my—both of my parents come from big families. My dad is one of 27 siblings, and
my mom is the second oldest of seven. So yeah.
Ruth 1:48
Okay. Um, so...um, before we, um, before this interview we talked and you mentioned
that your parents are immigrants from West Africa. So, do you know anything about
their experience with immigrating to the United States? And what that was like?
Aisha 2:05
I wouldn't say that I know detail for detail, but I do know that, um—so my dad, he kind of
left Guinea at 14 years old and then went to study at a boarding school in Sierra Leone
for like seven years. And then after that, he got accepted into a university in Saudi
Arabia, where he learned, um, where he got a degree in the Arabic language, and he
learned a lot about, like, Islam and things like that. And so when he was in Saudi
Arabia, my—um, he applied for my mom to come to the US. And so there is a visa
lottery. I don't know the exact name for it. And so he applied my mom for it and she was
able to win that lottery. And that's how they came to the US. And so also with like, their
experience, I guess I could say that they experienced a lot of, like, struggle at firs
because when they first moved here, they had to lived in like a cramped apartment with
like six or seven other people and being like newly married, that's like, [laughter] that's
not that great. And then, um, then they had me and my older brother, and so my parents
at some point were both working two jobs just to—to try and, um, make money for us.
And then, also, that was when my mom, uh, she was going to school. And it was her
mother that went and advised her that she should continue her schooling. And so that's
why, um, me and my older brother were sent back home to Guinea, because her
mother said that she would be able to take care of us and then it's when she died, that
my mom came back for us.
Ruth 3:54
Okay. Um, and so, what—how long ago did they come here? What year was it?
Aisha 4:01
They came here, I believe, 1999.
Ruth 4:08
Okay.
Aisha 4:09
Yeah, around there because they got married 1998.
Ruth 4:14
Okay. Um, so, um, do you remember anything about being in Guinea when you were
younger?
Aisha 4:21
It's sad to say no, I don't remember. I wish I would have stayed there longer to have
some memories because I was quite young when I came here. And also, um, I learned
in my psychology class that the age that I came here, my brain was deciding for me
what memories I should keep and what language I should keep. So when I first came
back to the US, I had to, like, re-learn English so I could go to, um, preschool, and then
that's how, um, I sort of forgot how to say and speak some things in my language. So
it's been like a learning process for me in a way.
Ruth 4:59
Okay. So, um, so, English is not your first language?
Aisha 5:04
No, but my parents would say otherwise. [laughter]
Ruth 5:08
Um, so another question I have is, um, so you mentioned that, um, you started wearing
a hijab, um, when you were almost eleven years old?
Aisha 5:22
Yes.
Ruth 5:22
So is eleven the average age Muslim girls start wearing a hijab? Um, and if not, when is
that? When is the average age that they start writing a hijab?
Aisha 5:34
Um, so for me personally, I would say that hijab and the overall section--spectrum—with
Muslims here today is there's no really specific average age that everybody puts on a
hijab. But I guess I could say that, like, it's more implemented on girls to wear hijab by
the time that they hit their puberty. Because in Islam, it's considered that oh, um, that's
when you start, uh, when if you do sin they start counting against you. So from puberty
and like younger than puberty, it doesn't count. But once you like get your first, um,
menstrual cycle, then it counts for you. So that's why a lot of parents would go and ask
their daughters to wear hijab or girls themselves would choose to wear hijab. For me
personally, my story with hijab was that, um, my mom used to wear hijab, but I
wouldn't—uh—but she would say that she wasn't wearing it to like the fullest, fullest
extent that hijab was supposed to be weared. And so it was, um, around like my 11th
birthday when she came up to me and she was just like, "Oh, do you wanna try out
something with me and like, wear the hijab with me?" And so in that moment, I thought it
would be like a fun thing to do. So then, uh, me and her both decided to wear it. And so
she told me If I didn't like it, I could take it off. So, so far I still haven't taken it off. So I
guess that's a good thing.
Ruth 7:06
Okay. So, your mom, um, so, she started wearing one later?
Aisha 7:15
Um, I would say, like, she—she kinda wore it in a turban style, I would say like in her
early 20s that she was wearing it. But it wasn't until like she hit her, um, her early 30s
that she actually started wearing it, um, to its fullest extent.
Ruth 7:35
Okay.
Um, so, another question I had is, uh, how did you feel when you first started wearing
the hijab?
Aisha 7:45
It was, um—
I guess my experience with it is different in a way because right when I started wearing
my hijab, a week or two later is when I went to my boarding school. So I was in sixth
grade my first year there, so, in my boarding school, it was just all girls and were—we
were all Muslim and everything. And we really did go outside and things like that,
because we already had like a basketball court and like a big parking lot area to like,
hang around with. So we never really like ventured outside into the—with like everybody
else. So it was like a very like closed environment. So I guess I could say my first
moments wearing hijab were good. But then after I left my boarding school, it was a
struggle in the sense that I didn't—I never faced wearing hijab in public around so many
people who weren't Muslim. And so having to deal with that, and like an identity crisis
issue and like also like, um, uh,, how I wanted to dress and how I wanted to be seen by
people. That was the thing that I struggled the most, I guess you could say my
experience wearing hijab.
Ruth 9:02
Um, so—
when—so what, like, what was that like? Um, you said, like, you know, um, worrying
about like wearing a hijab with other people that don't like, like—how did you feel about
that?
Aisha 9:15
Um..So I came—I left my boarding school, um, the summer of seventh grade. And so
then that was going to—I was gonna to be going into eighth grade. And so I was already
kind of nervous because my parents moved. So I was already in a new school district,
and I didn't know anybody and then wearing hijab outside for the first time, and in a way,
like, all the stuff that I learned in the boarding school about being modest and things like
that, I tried to integrate it while I was going to school, but then I—I just felt like a—a vibe
of isolation that people were—uh, were trying to push on me. No one was, um,
directly—uh, what's it called? No one was directly saying, “Oh, I don't like you. And I
don't like the fact that you're Muslim” or anything like that. It was more that I felt like a
sense of like, people didn’t wanna be around me, especially for example, when I had
gym class. And in gym class, you're required for like participation and things like that.
And so every time we had to do a—a class activity, like football or basketball or things
like that, there would be team captains and people would be choosing others or we
have to get into a partner. And I remember I had such a hard time getting a partner that
I had to go to the gym teacher and tell him, “Could you assign someone to be my
partner?” because I don't know. Nobody wants to be around me. And then there was
another instance when we were playing football and it was—I wouldn’t say that I'm the
best person at playing football, but at least I wanted to participate. But no one will throw
the ball to me. And I was like, How am I supposed to get my participation points if no
one wants to let me in. And so in a way, I had to make my own, um, space. I had to
venture out for myself. And I remember my eighth grade French teacher, I would always
confide in her when I was struggling, and she would tell me, you know, you have to be
able to put yourself out there, even if it's scary. And so I didn't really do that that much in
eighth grade, like, in a way that some of the ways that I put myself out there was, um,
being more outspoken in class and trying to like, find friends—a good number of friends
that I could like count on. But it was when I entered in ninth grade that I became, like
really active in clubs and things like that.
Ruth 12:00
Okay. Yeah. Um, that’s terrible that those things happened. That’s not good. Um, so,
um, another question is, how do you feel now wearing your hijab?
How do you feel about it?
Aisha 12:15
I honestly love my hijab. Some days we fight because it makes my head look a little
weird, but that's okay. But the true essence and spirituality that I get from wearing my
hijab, I guess is the best part because honestly, if I were to take it off now, I feel like I
would be losing a part of my identity. Like sometimes even in my house, when I can
take off my hijab in my house but sometimes I like the fact that like something is
covering me because I'm so used to...used to wearing it for majority of the day because
I'm not at home for majority of the day. So I—I love my hijab, and I love what it
represents to me. And I just feel like this and my hijab has allowed me to find, um, a
sense of contentment with my spirituality and religion.
Ruth 13:12
Yeah. Any more details about that?
Aisha 13:14
Um...I don't know, I guess it's been a long journey of just trying to find self discovery
within myself. Because even when I felt like I was going through this identity crisis, I
never really blamed it on my hijab. It was more that I blamed it on my lack of self
confidence to be able to, um, love myself within my own skin. Because when I was
younger, I never wore hijab and I dealt with, um, self confidence issues, especially
being one of the only black kids in a predominantly white school. So it was hard to
navigate that. And then just to throw on top—on top of it, not only are you one of the
lowest minorities in your school, but now you're also a part of another minority because
of the fact of your religion. And then it was also...um, I also, in a way had to force
myself, um...how do I say this? I had to force myself out of being in my insecurities,
because I knew I wouldn't be able to be the best person I could be academically and
socially and personally, in my own opinion, um—I'm sorry, this is hard to put into words.
But it was...um...I just had to find a way to make sure that I was confident in myself but
also enough where I could be able to express myself in a way that I wasn't, um,
taking away the true essence of my hijab, if that makes sense.
Ruth 15:04
Yeah. Okay. Um, so you mentioned earlier that you went to an Islamic boarding school,
for sixth and seventh grade. Um what, what are some experiences from that?
Aisha 15:16
Oh, my God. I loved that boarding school. [laughter] I really loved it, because I—I felt
like I was isolated in, um, regular public school since of the fact that I did have self
confidence issues and I was also one of the only black people in that school, uh, school.
So being in an environment where not only it was all girls, but then they’re all Muslim,
and there's a—they're all from different areas of the world. And it was majority Indian
Pakistani, but we had a few people who had, um, Arabic descent and then...and then
there is me who is West African. Um, I’m trying to remember who else...Oh there was
also people who were Bosnian, uh, from, um, Kosovo from like that European area. So
that was interesting. I...I really enjoyed my time there because I felt like I found a
sisterhood within all them. There was some older girls, some of the oldest were like 28.
And then I was one of the youngest, I was 11. And, well, there was another girl who was
younger than me, but she wasn't, um, old enough to enter into the actual school
because she had...she had to be 11 and she was 10. But some of the experiences I
remember is that every time during lunch, all of us would go outside into the parking lot,
and we would play, um, kickball and I remember how much fun that was, or we would
play basketball and just enjoying that sisterhood with them. And then the—in the
weekends when all the commuter students weren’t there, and all of us girls that were
dorming there would just hang out in somebody's room and just like stay up late at night
and eat snacks and talk. And I remember, um, there was no technology allowed. There
was like no things as like TV or anything like that. And they had a rule that you couldn't
have any type of smartphone, it had to be like an mp3 player or stuff like that. And I
remember all of us younger girls would go and try to sneak for the Wi-Fi password, and
we would try to hide our phones and everything, and then our phones got taken away
then we couldn't see them until like, the end of the year, but... [laughter]
Ruth 17:50
Oh my gosh.
Aisha 17:50
it was...it was fun. Um, I, um...what is it? There was also some things I didn't like about
it. For one, there was also a girl who used to bully me there. And it wasn't...I guess it
was just like bullying that happens with your age group. And I think in a way, it was...it
was like a lesson of trying to teach me that I need to be able to be strong for myself.
And so me and her have talked about it and we’ve like both forgiven each other, but that
was like one of my experiences that I look back that I'm just like, wow. I never see it as
like a painful...painful experience even though I felt like I went through a lot of pain in
those moments. But now I just look at it as like a memory in the past that it—it hasn't
really affected me in any way. And, um, I've just been lucky to meet some of those girls
there. Sometimes I still message them on Snapchat, and it's so fun to see them on their,
like, Snapchat stories. A lot of them got married and some of them have kids now, some
of us are going to college and some of us moved out of the country. So it's—it's been
fun. I really enjoyed it.
Ruth 19:07
That's good.
Uh, so...um, what were...
Um, what were your classes like? Or anything else...?
Aisha 19:21
My classes at the boarding school?
Ruth 19:23
Yes.
Aisha 19:24
Um, it—it was different in my first year and my...and my second year. In my first year,
we actually had, um, like classrooms that we have here now. We had classrooms like
that. So I would take, um, I had an English teacher, I had a science teacher, and I had a
math teacher. And then we had, um, the boarding school’s like curriculum where we
had to take Arabic classes and we also had to do, um, Qur’an memorization classes. So
there's things like that. Did we take history? I think the language arts teacher and the
history teacher were the same people because I can't remember if we did history, but
yeah, so we did classes like that. And so it was kind of different programs in the sense.
There was two programs that they offered at the school being like the Alima course and
the Hidfh course. So the Hidfh course was more like you're learning a lot about Islam
and like you're—you're not only learning about like the Arabic language, but it's like
grammar and how to read it and things like that. And then you learn about the history of
Islam and people and like what they—what works, they've done, so a lot of the older
girls were doing classes like that. And then like the rest of us who were still in high
school, we were doing the HIF program which was centered around memorizing, uh,
Qur’an, but we also had secular studies like math, science, and English. And then for
my second year, some things changed, instead of having like face to face teachers we
did online. And that was kind of bad. Because, uh, I don't think anybody was able to
learn well in that way, because you kind of had to sit there for almost like a good three
to four hours just looking at a screen and trying to pay attention, even myself, like I
would write down notes and things like that. And then we would get our tests back and
whew, it would be rough. So then our teacher, she—the one who was supposed to be
monitoring us—she had an administration feature or whatever that allowed her that if we
failed the test, that she could allow us to retake it again. So that's how we passed our
classes.
Ruth 21:51
Okay. That’s—that’s good. Um, anything else you'd like to add about that?
Aisha 21:56
Um, I do remember a lot of us, like when they got the computers in the second year,
some girls would go and try and sneak onto the computers at night just to go on the
internet and then they had to lock the doors of the computers were in. So that—there
was some really interesting stuff that happened there.
Ruth 22:19
Yeah. So was it a smaller school or like how many, like
how many students?
Aisha 22:26
Okay, this is hard, but I think about for the dorming students, I guess there was about
24 to 30 of us, because the school in and of itself was already small. I think it used to be
like an old warehouse or auto shop, but it was really tiny. And then, um, and then the
dorm, uh, the commuter students, I don't know how much they were, but I think maybe
we got 50 plus the 50 for...throughout...for the whole school. But us dorming was about
like 24 to 30. And some people would drop in the middle of the year and some people
would come in the middle of the year. So it always changed.
Ruth 23:07
Okay, okay. And so...um,
another question I have is, how are you involved with your faith? Right now?
Aisha 23:16
Do you mean like, um, activities in the community or in like my daily life?
Ruth 23:22
Um, well, first like community, I guess.
Aisha 23:24
Oh. in the community. Let's see, I used to be a lot more active after I came out of my
boarding school than I am currently, I'm trying to improve that but we haven't gotten
there yet. Um, so some ways that I've been, um, involved in the community...in eighth
grade, I remember when I used to go to a Saturday and Sunday school to memorize the
Qur'an and there would be flyers for, um, events. Like there was this one organization
called Al Maghrib, and it catered to people around the United States and different
countries and they would bring in, um, experts and like speakers and scholars and you
would go there. They’d be teaching specific topics like every three months that they
came and you were there for like a weekend learning or on rare occurrences there was
like a double weekend where sometimes they just came on one day to like do like a
story night. So I remember when I—when my cousin introduced me to that I really liked
it. So I used to do volunteering for them a lot. So I used to be an usher. I would help
people on which way was the bathroom and how to get into the—the classroom and
um, seating and things like that. And then I think I did a little bit of registration and then I
switched to food and food was hectic, because everybody comes during the break times
and then-[sneezes] Excuse me.
Um, counting all that money and everything was hectic. So I did that. And then there
was another organization called Pearls of Hope. And it—and it was run by the founder,
a sister Danielle. And so it was catering to young Muslim girls here specifically in
Minnesota. And we did, um... We had talks about like Islam and things like that. And
then we do activities and it was just more of a way to bring Islam about our lives and like
create a sisterhood. And so they had, um, events, like for example, we had swimming
events because for Muslim women, it's hard to go out to the beach and to the pool and
just like swim because like, you know, covering your body and everything. So some of
the events that they would have would be to rent out a water park. And we could go and
just swim there. So I was a part of volunteeing events for that. And then we made our
own little prom. We called it the Pearls Prom, so I used to help set up and things like
that. At one point, my sister Danielle asked us—some of us older girls—to go and teach.
My cousins were able to do it but I wasn't able to because of, like, schedule conflict.
Um,’and there was also another organization called Building Blocks of Minnesota, and
they just go around helping people who just newly became Muslim. And they do, uh,
projects around this...uh, Minnesota for, um, helping feed—uh, feeding the homeless,
um, canning food items to send it to people in need and they do a bunch of other stuff
so I dabbled in that. And then also like my Saturday and Sunday school, I would help
my teacher help people to memorize Qur’an so I did—I did some of those things. And
then once like junior year and senior year hit it was—I was going through a lot of stress
in that moment to be able to continue to doing all those things, but I hope to do it in the
future.
Ruth 27:03
Yeah, that’s cool. Um, so what does being Muslim mean to you?
Aisha 27:11
We have a lot of things. [laughter]
Um, what are...
I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that answer out because, you know, experts or
scholars in the religion go and say, this is this is—this is the criteria of what Islam should
mean to a Muslim. And then I speak with, uh, young Muslim people that are around my
age and then older Muslim people, and it just varies, but I think what it means to be a
Muslim to me is just finding contentment with all the things that I've been blessed with
and all the things that I haven't been blessed with because in a way, that's a blessing in
itself because one thing I brought up earlier about my self confidence issues. It always
made me feel like I was never enough, that I was never doing enough for myself,
especially with like familial expectations and school expectations and friendships and,
um, religious expectations. So when the identity crisis that I was talking about after I
came from my boarding school, it was—it was a point where I felt really low in my
spiritual life, because I felt like at one point, I wasn't doing it to better myself. I was just
doing it because there was people there that kept asking, mainly my parents, they're
just like, “Why don't you pay anymore? Why don't you do this?” But it was...it was hard
to explain my struggles to them because of the—the cultural barrier of them being
immigrant parents and being raised from a certain way and then bringing back culture
from however long ago they left, like they left their country 20 years ago. So they're
bringing their culture that they know from 20 years ago. And so we've had cultural
clashes in my house and, um, language clashes and religion—religiosity clashes in my
house. But for now, I don't really know what—how to answer that question, but I'm
slowly figuring out, it's just yeah, I'm just trying to find like a sort of contentment within
myself to be happy about my relationship with God, you know? I don't wanna ever think
that what I'm doing now is enough, because in a way, I don't think it's ever enough. So
in that mindset, I can always push myself to be a better Muslim and me pushing myself
to be a better Muslim has helped me better myself in different ways, such as like having
better manners. um, doing better things for not only myself but people in my community
and just loving myself. So, that’s like all I can say for now.
Ruth 30:08
Um, when you said you and your parents had clashes, like what did you mean by that
exactly?
Aisha 30:14
Um, there was, for example, like clashes, um, dealing with schooling and my parents
had very high expectations. They still do, for me and my siblings to be a certain way and
because in a way, they're just like, “Oh, we don't want you to struggle like we did” and
all that other stuff, and sometimes they can push too hard. And so now that me and my
older brother are older, we’re just like, “You need to stop pushing so hard because it
makes it difficult for us to, um, try to reach those expectations that you're giving us.” And
like, for example, um, with my schooling, they didn't really like what I wanted to go to
school for, and so that's caused a lot of family tension and a lot of fights and crying and
then like, also like, language clashes. My parents, um, uh, are not happy at the fact that
me and my siblings can't speak the language well, but it's also because, um,
we're—we’re not in a setting where my parents speak only their native language
because my—my mom went to schooling here and my dad is a bus driver and so he
constantly has to speak to people. And so they're one of the most fluently speaking, uh,
English speakers in our community. So I can't even hear an accent in them. Other
people say they hear but I can't. And so for them they’re—they feel like we're kind of
losing our culture and becoming, um, too American in a way, so that's what I would say
for clashes.
Ruth 31:58
Yeah—um, how does being Muslim impact your daily life?
Aisha 32:02
Oh, it impacts everything for—uh—if you’ve never heard this quote, there's always this
thing that us Muslims say about Islam and that it's a way of life, like everything that I do
is—there's always something in Islam that talks about it from like the morning I wake up
to—to when I pray, to how I get dressed, how I eat to how I leave my house, how I
speak to my parents, so what manners I'm supposed to have, so Islam really revolves
around my life like I can never just separate Islam from my life like, Islam is embedded
into my life.
Ruth 32:43
Um...any—anything else you'd like to add about—about that?
Aisha 32:53
Hmm...No. That’s it. That’s all I can say.
Ruth 32:54
Okay. Um, so, speaking of your family, what are some of your family traditions?
Aisha 33:01
Traditions like religious traditions or like cultural traditions?
Ruth 33:05
Well, I guess, both, I guess, yeah.
Aisha 33:07
Um religious traditions, I wouldn’t say there's like much that comes from my family
specifically. But from what I know, like my mom really tried hard to make us really
interested in our religion. So I remember when we were all able to start fasting, my mom
would ask us to come and, um, decorate for Ramadan and when we were younger, we
never did that. So it's fun to go and start decorating for Ramadan, and then like one
year, I think I was in eighth grade or ninth grade, she bought like a frame—a wooden
frame—and then we went and painted out, uh, letters that said “Ramadan.
bhavik and everything and we painted it in pretty colors and then we put it on our front
door so all our neighbors can see. And then she bought, um, a lighting thing that was in
the shape of a crescent moon, and she hangs it on the window and so it, uh, it
plays—not plays, shines—through the window at night. And then some other thing that
we used to do, we used to go and bring food to the neighbors because they used to...it
was Ramadan and so the whole thing about being kind and nice to your neighbors in
Islam, we went and did that and then we started, um...when—after Ramadan finishes,
and Eid comes, we go and give presents to each other and buy cake and that's...that's
our religious traditions that I guess you could say. Cultural traditions...um, I don't know if
there's like a specific thing that my family does over everybody else. I wouldn’t say that
we do anything specific but I guess like, events that we go to are like baby naming
ceremonies, like baby showers, and weddings, but there's no specific cultural traditions
that my family does.
Ruth 35:01
You mentioned putting that crescent moon in your window. What does that represent?
In your religion?
Aisha 35:08
So, in Islam we follow the lunar calendar. So it's more...I don't know how to explain this.
But I know like Western countries and other countries follow the Gregorian calendar
where revolves around the sun, and the lunar calendar is more focused on the moon.
So there's an 11 day difference between both calendars. And so...so the months in
Islam are always moving around every single year. They're never staying in just like one
place, and also like the...the symbol of Islam is the moon and the star. So that's why we
have a crescent moon.
Ruth 35:49
Okay.
Aisha 35:49
Yeah.
Ruth 35:50
So, um, like for holidays, like what kind of things to do for—for that?
Aisha 35:56
So we basically like have two holidays. There's Ramadan and then the—the two Eids.
Uh, Eid Al-Fitr is after Ramadan, and Eid Al-Adha, is, um, during the—after [speaks
Arabic] season finish—finishes. So what my family does is, whew, it's wild. So my mom,
she likes to make like, uh, seasoned rice with like different types of meat and
everything. And so the night before, she'll start cooking it, and then she'll cook into the
night and then leave it so then she'll finish the rest of it in the morning. And then by that
time, we're still—we're still on the last day of Ramadan. So we still have to pack up and
go to the mosque to pray and break our fast and things like that. So the day before Eid
is always a...a very stressful day. And then in the morning is even more stressful
because everybody's fighting to get into the shower and like waking up and getting there
on time. We’re never on time. [laughter] One thing that my mom always does is that
she’ll wake everybody up and she’s like yelling around the house, she's just like, “We're
gonna be late, we're gonna be late,” then everybody's ready and she's literally the last
person who's ready. She's still in the shower when we're already done and everything.
And so then my mom will wake up extremely early, or sometimes I don't even know if
she sleeps, and then she'll wake up extremely early to finish cooking. And then, uh,
everybody else wakes up and then we get dressed in our—the clothes that we bought
for that year. And then we all pile into the car. And then we, I don't know how to say it in
English, but we have, I guess, like a mantra that we go and say in the car. It's kind of
like, um, I don't know what it means sorry, but it's like “Labbaykallah humma labbayk
Labbaykallah la shareeka laka labbayk” and we say that in our car on the way—all the
way to the mosque or the prayer area that everybody's gathering. Because it's, it's a
good thing to do on Eid, to keep sending praise. And then we go to the mosque, find
parking, then get into the area and find a place to pray because it's so packed. And then
after that everybody prays, and then everybody says their hi’s and hellos, and
everybody stays there to go and take pictures with each other. And then everybody
goes back home. And then when we get home, we open our presents and my
mom—who records us—and then my mom and dad call their family from all around the
world because my dad has like five siblings that live in Europe. And then, uh, they have,
uh, they have friends and family that like live all around the US. And then they still have
a majority of their family that lives back home in Guinea. So they're calling people and
they're asking us to go and speak to them and that's when me and my siblings run
away. [laughter] And then after that we take our nap for like three hours and then wake
up and then there's a barbecue for like the community to go to and then we go to the
barbecue and that's how we do holidays. [laughter]
Ruth 39:13
And...and remind me, what exactly are those holidays, like, celebrating, Ramadan and...
Aisha 39:18
So, you...uh, for Ramadan it's more like a spiritual, like rememberance. It’s more of, uh,
the significance of Ramadan is just to go and remember what poor people feel like, or
people who may be less than—who are considered less than—by society in like status
and like class or things like that. So it's just like thinking about them,and it's also like, uh,
training your body mentally and physically to, um, to...what's it called...to resist and
control your desires because they think of it as an analogy, like your stomach The whole
day is like telling you, oh, I need to eat, but then your brain is telling your stomach, Oh,
you can't do that until sunset comes. And so it's more like telling your inner soul that
even though if you wanna do like a SIM, for example, you have to tell them “no, you
can't do it.“ So things like that. And then the two Eids are just like a celebration thing.
Yeah.
Ruth 40:25
Olay. Um, so, celebration for...?
Aisha 40:29
Like Eid Al-Fitr is like the celebration after like Ramadan because you are fasting. And
then Eid Al-Adha Is like when everybody like sacrifices like a cow or goat or a sheep,
because hedge season has finished.
Ruth 40:43
Oh, okay.
Aisha 40:44
Yeah.
Ruth 40:45
Okay, cool. Uh, the next question I have is, uh, I think you mentioned this—you rallied
about this a little bit before, but have you experienced any negativity because of your
religion? And yeah, any experiences with that?
Aisha 41:00
I would say I’m one of the few people who hasn't experienced any, um, negativity
directly towards me. The only one that I can remember is in eighth grade when these
group of boys—I was walking to my class early in the morning, and they were following
behind me and they were just like, “No hats in school,” and I didn't know who they were
talking to. And they were just like, “No hats in school,” and then they're just like “You
stupid Muslim.” And so like, I whipped my head around. I was like [makes a shocked
noise] And then like they all walked away. So then I reported them to the principal and
all that other stuff, and then the kid got in trouble. And then he wrote me an apology
note.
So I still have the apology note. [laughter] So I guess that's one of the only experiences,
but I would say that I am aware that other Muslims, uh, for example, my cousins and
everything, have gone through, um, direct hate by people, and I know some people go
through like the worst things like having acid thrown on them or like getting beat up by
people or being like, bullied at school. I'm blessed that I haven't had to face that, but I
do, I have felt the isolation that it comes with, and how people would rather not want to
be around you because of the fact that you're Muslim because I can't think of any other
way because they don't know me personally. So, I think that's all I can say on my
personal experience.
Ruth 41:40
Aww.
And any, do you know, um...
any of your parents’ experiences, maybe...?
Aisha 42:33
Like, I wouldn’t say, um...I can't remember if there's specific instances where people
have called them out on being like Muslim, but I know like my dad, he gets a lot of
racism while driving at the bus, and like people are just like rude and disrespectful.
They're like drunk people on the bus so they say like, all sorts of things. And there's
always people that are asking him like, “Where are you from?” and all that other stuff.
So I know like my dad goes through that, but I can't remember if my mom has
experienced anything directly.
Ruth 43:09
Okay. Well, that’s good that you haven't experienced...
Aisha 43:13
Yeah.
Ruth 43:14
...negative things, that’s good.
Okay, next question I have is, unrelated to that, but, um, what are you majoring in?
What are you planning on majoring in?
Aisha 43:25
That’s a story! Do you wanna hear all—the whole story?
Ruth 43:28
Sure.
Aisha 43:29
Um, so...
Originally, in eighth grade, I really like—I forgot how I got into it but somehow I got into
it—Um, I had to I was in this competition thing about, um, oratorical speech contest.
And so we had to write about our future and what we wanted to do as a future job. And
so I remember in that instance, I couldn't remember anything until like two days before
the thing and I wrote about how I wanted to...um...what's it called?...I like the brain and I
was interested in learning stuff about the brain. And I think I mentioned a little bit of
psychology in there. Fast forward, I didn't win the thing, but I still like psychology. So,
um, ninth grade and tenth grade, it was more about me searching about what I wanted
to do with psychology and things like that. And so when I finally mentioned to my
parents that I wanted to do psychology, they were not very happy about it. Because my
dad wanted me to do something in the sciences and he didn't really like the idea of
mental health sciences
Because like, they—like a stigma he held about it with like, religiousness and all that
other stuff. And then, um, my mom wanted me to be a nurse. She's a nurse herself. And
so like, in my community, especially, every single woman or every other woman in my
community is a nurse. Like, no other...all of them are nurses. So like I literally come
from a whole family line of nurses, can’t escape it, even remember studying to be a
nurse. So...so, and it’s because for them, nursing was the easiest way and fastest way
that they could finish their education and start making enough money to support their
families. So I get that that's why she would want me to do nursing. And she also says
that it's like really broad and everything, but I've never really been interested in nursing.
So that's kind of been hard. And so then, um, what is it? So then I was just like, oh, you
know, like, I see the way my parents struggle from paycheck to paycheck. So, um, I
changed psychology into psychiatry. I don't really like psychiatry as much because I
don't like the idea of just like giving medicine to people. I don't want people to be
addicted to medicine since we have such a big epidemic of, um, opioids and drugs here
in America. And we're also like a very, um, medically dependent country when it comes
to curing people of like diseases and stuff like that. Not that that's a bad thing, but we
also have high overdoses so. And so, um, it was literally in my senior year where I
decided to, um, pursue psychiatry. And then I came here to Augsburg because I didn't
wanna major in biology because I don't like biology by itself, I think that's boring. And so
I found out that Augsburg here has a biopsych course, so now I'm majoring in bio psych.
So I'm pretty excited about that. I have yet to take any psychology classes from here,
but I'm excited for it. And hopefully I'll be able to do something with it.
Ruth 46:50
So, and you're in biology right now, right?
Aisha 46:53
Uh, yes.
Ruth 46:54
And how—or, do you...do you like it?
Aisha 46:57
The... [laughter] Um, the course—I’m surprised at how well I'm doing in the class. I
would say, um...
I wouldn’t say I hundred percent like it, but at least I understand it enough to like, like
something. Like I...I like learning about some of the animals and freshwater species and
the geology and things like that. But the specific sciency stuff about biology... Ha ha ha
no way!
(laughter) Yeah.
Ruth 47:29
[laughter] Um, uh, what do you plan on doing with that—with your major? Like, what
career do you think?
Aisha 47:35
Um, so my plan is to go to med school with it. And hopefully when I finish my med
school, I'll be in my third or fourth year. Hopefully I'll be able to decide what I really want
to specialize in, whether it's like emergency medicine, psychiatry or functional medicine,
and then after that go to residency for some years, finish that. And then after that I want
to be able to work...uh, work and get work experience for some number of years. And
then I wanna branch out and open up my own business that caters to not only like the
Muslim community, but other communities here, nationally and internationally. So
hopefully it works out.
Ruth 48:22
Okay. That’s cool. Um, so...um, why—like why do you—why are you deciding that you
want to go to medical school?
Aisha 48:31
Um, it may sound like for selfish reasons, but like I said before, like, um, my parents, I
see the way they struggle just to get a paycheck. And sometimes we had to go living
through paycheck to paycheck. And so I wanna be able to not only do something that
I'm passionate about, but also make a lot of money for it, because I don't want my kids
to feel, uh, to feel like they can't have something because I don't have enough money to
pay for it. And I also wanna be able to like pay for things and not have to be like, uh, be
like a ration for stuff like, oh, how am I supposed to pay this and the kids school? And
dadada. And I also wanna be able to pay for their, um, uh, what is it? College. I’m trying
to build that generational wealth, you know what I’m saying?
Ruth 49:26
Yeah.
Aisha 49:27
And then also like, I guess, having the knowledge of not only, um, psychology and
different parts, but also knowing the body and also understanding how to administer
medicine. I feel like that would be a big advantage to me to being able to better help my
community and not—and not just going through it from one single view but going
through it from multiple views.
Ruth 49:54
Okay. All right. And those are all the questions I have, uh, is there anything else that
you want to add or anything else you want to talk about that we didn’t get to talk about
earlier?
Aisha 50:05
Um, nothing comes to mind. But I would just say, for anyone...who...
Um, for anyone who wants to like diversify their, um, uh
their like five in mind and everything, be open to meeting new people, whether they look
like you and whether they don't look like you, because you can learn so many different
things from—from so many different people. And you'd be surprised that where you can
learn some stuff from and what people you learn it from. So, be open-minded. Don't
stress yourself out and live life beautifully.
Ruth 50:43
Aw, that’s nice. Okay, thank you so much for talking with me and sharing your
experiences.
Aisha 50:50
Yeah, you're welcome.
Ruth 50:51
Okay.
Aisha 50:51
Thank you for inviting me.
Ruth 50:52
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Sahra Tobe 0:04
Okay, Today is November 25. My name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims
in Minnesota project for Augsburg University, if you could introduce
yourself to the recording, and just say when and where you were born and
maybe a little bit of your background. That'd be fantastic... Show more
Sahra Tobe 0:04
Okay, Today is November 25. My name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims
in Minnesota project for Augsburg University, if you could introduce
yourself to the recording, and just say when and where you were born and
maybe a little bit of your background. That'd be fantastic.
My name is Fatuma Tobe.
Fatuma Tobe 0:29
I was born in 1990.
Sahra Tobe 0:35
in Ethiopia
Fatuma Tobe
um I come
0:41
from a big family, I have about nine siblings.
Um, so there's six of us
girls and then four boys
and I'm the second oldest
So I belong to the Oromo tribe in Ethiopia, one of the largest tribes in
Ethiopia
And I was in Ethiopia for about.... maybe...
I left there about when I was seven, seven years old.
And I grew up on a farm with my grandmother. And then after we left there,
I went with my mom to meet my dad in Kenya.
Sahra Tobe 1:49
Why was your dad in Kenya and not with you guys?
Fatuma Tobe 1:54
He was in the army. So we never really had him around.
So he just asked my mom, if she could come to Kenya for an opportunity to
come here to America.
Sahra Tobe 2:14
You said he was in the army, what war, or struggle was happening and what
um, how much of it Do you remember?
Fatuma Tobe 2:24
He was in the army with my grandfather, my paternal, um, maternal
grandfather
And
they're basically fighting for the Oromo struggle, to basically, the Oromo
people were being oppressed by the Ethiopian government or the Tigray
government.
Sahra Tobe 2:49
About how long was that going on? And do you remember any, any specific
conversations or situations that maybe you were a part of before coming
here?
Fatuma Tobe
so that
3:03
that conflict has been going on for over 150 years.
I remember my, my mother talking about how
her father was exiled, fighting for his people's rights, and they're
always in hiding or running
from the
government.
They also had to
go to Somalia
for some time because they couldn't be in Ethiopia.
And then, my grandfather never had the opportunity to go back to his
country. So he died in exile in Kenya. Um..
2005
Sahra Tobe 3:57
Okay, so you said you guys met up in Kenya, um in order to look at
opportunities to come to the US. How was that process? And when did you
guys finally get to immigrate here?
Fatuma Tobe 4:11
So the opportunity to come to the US was through my grandfather. So the
UN, made him an offer and told him that they were willing to bring any one
of his family over. Like I said, he was in exile, so everyone that is in
his family or that had ties to his family, were in danger, so they
couldn't go back to Ethiopia. So they gave him the opportunity or they
sponsored anyone that was related to him by marriage or by blood. And then
so that's how that's how my father made sure that my mom came over so we
didn't miss out on the opportunity to come here for a better life.
Sahra Tobe 5:02
So you spoke about the UN and their hand in coming to the States. Do you
remember any other
any other points of contact between the UN and your grandfather at the
time of the conflict at all?
Fatuma Tobe 5:17
Um, he- I do remember my mom saying that
they worked with him closely.
Because he was he was well, he was fighting
wasn't really like an extremist or anything
that's why they sponsored him because a lot
America through that sponsor and... I don't
for peace and freedom. So he
like that. So I'm guessing
of family came, came to
know.
Sahra Tobe 5:51
And what was his name again?
Fatuma Tobe 5:53
His name is Wako Gutu.
Sahra Tobe 5:56
Okay, and then when when you guys were granted entry into the United
States
and then finally starting to settle down. Where did you guys settle down
first and what do you remember of that transition?
Fatuma Tobe 6:13
So we we came to the states January of 2000. And we first settled in
Lansing, Michigan. And we stayed in Lansing for about seven months. So we
came during winter which is very tough. We didn't know anybody and it was
a struggle new country, we didn't know the language, no job. So that's why
we my family decided to move after several months to Marshall, Minnesota
where they had
similar family member that lived there to help them with the process.
Sahra Tobe 7:00
And how old were you whenaround that time from the move from Michigan to Marshall?
Fatuma Tobe 7:09
I think I was 9 or 10
Sahra Tobe 7:13
So you were in what grade?
Fatuma Tobe 7:16
Third grade?
Sahra Tobe 7:17
And you were attending public school at the time?
Fatuma Tobe
7:19
Yes.
Sahra Tobe 7:20
What do you remember of um,
kind of getting into the swing of um, public school and that new routine
that maybe you weren't used to before?
Fatuma Tobe 7:31
Um, it was the first time going to school so very strange. I didn't know
the language.
I didn't know the culture. I didn't know anyone. So I was afraid I didn't
know what to expect.
Yeah, it was very tough.
And you know what the kids were saying it was traumatizing to be honest.
Sahra Tobe 7:57
Do you- you said you moved, you guys moved to Marshall and connected with
other family members. Do you remember any instances where maybe you guys
kind of leaned on each other for support in terms of coming into this new
American culture?
Fatuma Tobe 8:17
Um, yeah, so the move from Michigan to Marshall, we,
I believe we took a bus there
It was a long transition. And then that's when my mom had started working
in a Turkey factory, or the chicken factory. So she didn't know how to
drive. She didn't speak the language. She didn't know anything. So she
would ask, or she would share rides with people or the people that were
there before and they should work long hours night shift. And then she
would come home and take care of her home duties. So it's very was a tough
time for us and
we struggled a lot.
Sahra Tobe 9:04
And you said your mother was working at a factory? What was your father
doing for a job at the time?
Fatuma Tobe 9:13
Um he didn't work at the time.
Sahra Tobe 9:16
Okay, so also you said earlier
about I don't remember if you mentioned it about the other family members.
But with the transition to school, how do you think your identity as a
Black or African American Muslim woman contributed to
your process in transition into school?
Fatuma Tobe 9:47
It was difficult because there wasn't a lot of people that looked like me
at that at the time. People did not know much about Muslims and why we
covered and they didn't know Basically why we looked different. But, you
know, and on top of that we're people of color so I remember getting asked
in elementary school Why do I have a rag on my head? Is it because I don't
have any hair? Do I shower with that?
So we, I,
I felt that that we had to educate
our peers about our appearance and basically explained to them
Sahra Tobe 10:34
why we were, how we were
Fatuma Tobe 10:38
or who we were, who we are.
Sahra Tobe 10:41
How do you remember like how you you guys went about doing that
explanation to your peers?
Fatuma Tobe
Um,
10:50
so me and couple of the girls we would
obviously would get mad whenever they said they'd be like oh you guys
don't have no hair, you guys are bald or whatever.
So we would take them to the bathroom and uncover and-and show them our
hairs just so that they can leave us,
leave us alone or
so they can believe us that we actually do have hair. And that we cover
because of our religion.
Sahra Tobe 11:22
Okay, and then earlier, you spoke about having 10 siblings and how six of
them were born in the US. So by the time you guys had touched down in
Michigan and Marshall, four, four of your siblings had already been born,
correct?
Fatuma Tobe 11:39
So yeah, before we came to the States, there were four of us.
My sister at the time was
one so when she came she wasn't even one yet, she was like 10 months or 11
months, she was 11 months and then after we had come to Michigan,
March of that year, my sister Sahra was born
Sahra Tobe 12:10
so then after after that birth Do you remember how that process kind of
went because I know usually that that probably was a really significant
time and you guys transition from the States here coming here and having a
having a sister born that quickly.
Fatuma Tobe 12:35
Um Yeah, I was difficult for my mom because we would go to school and then
only
my my baby sister at the time was one who was one years old, was the only
one that was at the house and then my mom didn't know the language. When
she went to into labor. She didn't know how to call for help or anything
like that. So she she after she had got into the hospital, they had to
call an interpreter for her.
So basically, she had to rely on someone else to relay how she was feeling
or what she wanted the doctors to know, which is difficult in itself.
Sahra Tobe 13:16
So, we're speaking of all these transitions and things like that, in terms
of your school when So you said that you're having issues because there's
a language barrier, and then also your first time it was your first time
being in any type of like, academic institution to begin with. When did
you do feel like you had sort of like a breakthrough moment
with school?
Fatuma Tobe
so since
13:42
I started school, we I, I've always been, I've always been in ESL class,
where the teacher worked one on one with me so I can learn the English
language. quicker. And surprisingly, I caught on quick, quickly for
someone that have never been to school before, and starting from the third
grade. So after I had started
I believe eighth grade,
I was still going to the ESL class up until I was in eighth grade. And
then that's when I decided along with my teachers that I didn't need that
ESL class anymore. That I was I was fluent enough I was good enough to
just be in like regular classes with everybody else. So I would definitely
say eighth grade with my breakthrough moment.
Sahra Tobe 14:50
So, going moving forward.
How was your experience? Do you remember any defining moments in your
experience and moving forward into high school, and just how your
interactions with your peers, where did you maybe start a job, anything
like that any type of like, milestones that you achieved within those four
years.
Fatuma Tobe 15:20
Um, so I got my first job in high school.
So we had moved from so we moved from Marshall. We stayed in Marshall for
three years, and then we moved to St. Cloud, Minnesota and we stayed there
for three years and then we moved to St. Paul, Minnesota. So during that
time, so from St. Cloud to St. Paul, that transition,
my mom had left her job.
She had left her job and
and then we, basically my parents My brother was in the Twin Cities at the
moment at a time and then he wanted the family to move to the cities. So
my mom had to leave her leave her job. And then the housing and
everything, just pick up and move here. And it was a difficult time
transitioning to that without no job and paying rent and stuff like that.
So I had to, I had to get a job in high school. So I would go to school
for eight hours, and then I will get out, go to work, come home, like do
my homework, whatever, at like midnight or whatever, and then start all
over again. Just to help pay the bills and stuff. And I was only one
working at the time. So I just felt like that was
like a responsibility on my shoulder. I guess. I wasn't so young, but it's
still at a young age, so.
Sahra Tobe 16:59
how do you feel that responsibility or the family structure that you had
differed from your peers? And do you feel like it sets you apart from them
significantly?
Fatuma Tobe
Yeah, I do
17:11
think that it does set me apart.
Having both of my parents not working and being able to
pay the bills
fell on my shoulder and that was like a little, it was, it would, it put
stress, uh pressure on me for some time, so I had worked until I graduated
high school
So yeah, I mean, I don't I don't think it
at the time, it was like, Oh, I just felt like it's something that I
needed to do, something I had to do
but
now thinking about it. I I do Feel that I missed out a lot compared to my
peers about growing up especially in high school and like doing that you
know the average things that high school kids do because I had that
responsibility.
Sahra Tobe 18:15
Yeah, so most immigrant communities typically
sometimes they create start to create
kind of circles where they support each other in terms of like need or
even just so there can be people with similar backgrounds around each
other at all times. Do you remember any type of community bonding or
things like that growing up?
Fatuma Tobe 18:45
Um, I would say the biggest thing is
the the masjid and the weekend schools.
That was like a sense of community like every time money Friday we had a
regular public schools and then we on weekends we would have religious
school where we learned the Quran and Islamic Studies and stuff like that.
And then also going to the masjid and for like Fridays and for the
holidays and stuff like that. So Ramadan would, you know fast for 30 days
and then we'd do Taraweeh prayers, night prayers. So that was like a sense
of community growing up
Sahra Tobe 19:33
do you think do you feel like like your faith has played a large part and
in your upbringing and
your experience so far?
Fatuma Tobe 19:46
Oh, yeah, definitely. I mean, my
a huge role in my in my life and
Everything that I do, I revolves
peace and tranquility, to have a
So definitely played a huge role
faith is the number one thing that played
it still plays a huge role in my life.
around Faith and is is is a sense of
purpose in life that keeps you grounded.
in my life.
Sahra Tobe 20:18
Okay, so coming back to the move to St. Paul.
After that move, you were still in high school correct at that time?
Fatuma Tobe
Yes.
Sahra Tobe
20:29
20:31
So then after graduating high school, what plans Did you have or what what
aspirations and things like that? What did you have lined up after those
four years?
Fatuma Tobe 20:41
So after graduation I planned
on going on to college and
my undergrad possibly think about grad school.
But right after
I graduated high school, due to the struggles, and how me being the only
one working and my mom couldn't find jobs here. We decided to move to
Seattle. So I had to put my college on hold for a while for a couple years
Sahra Tobe 21:18
why Seattle?
Fatuma Tobe
Um, I guess
21:20
people were telling my parents that there was job better job opportunities
there and that we just needed to have a change of
weather or scenery or something like that.
Sahra Tobe 21:42
How do you feel like that change has affected like your life trajectory or
like your your plans and how was that process how did you work through
that?
Fatuma Tobe 21:55
That move, I would say kind of messed up my college plans,
I did have a couple of scholarships that I lost due to that move.
So again, you know, moving from a place where you at the time been we've
been in St. Paul for three years now. So we're just getting used to
everything.
had friends, job and everything.
So moving to a whole new state was difficult.
Sahra Tobe 22:36
And at that point, how many siblings were in your family?
Fatuma Tobe 22:41
There was nine of us at the time.
Sahra Tobe
22:44
And with the move to Seattle, how did how did that go? Where did you guys
end up locating and when did you
pick back up your studies if you did?
Fatuma Tobe 22:58
So when we first got to Seattle we stayed with relative for about two
weeks and then after that we stayed in shelter and then we stayed in a
transitional housing for about a year and a half or so. And then after
that we finally got we finally had a section eight housing or low income
housing.
And then we stayed in, in that, I believe, about two years.
So
I did, I did enroll in a in a in a community college in Seattle for for a
semester so and then I ended up stopping
due to my health.
So I didn't I didn't go back to school until we had come back to
Minnesota. So for about two years I did not go to school or I do not go
back to school or I do not go straight to
a university or whatever.
Sahra Tobe 24:13
And so I during this this time, you mentioned earlier that your faith
played a large role in your upbringing and just your life in general,
would you say that your culture as well your cultural orientation played a
similar role?
Fatuma Tobe 24:36
Um, I would say, my faith played a
major role in my life. My culture did play somewhat of a role but not as
as big of a role as the- as
as my religion did.
Sahra Tobe 24:57
Why do you think that is?
Fatuma Tobe 25:02
I think that when you're in a different country and you trying to learn
the culture and language, you have a tendency to somewhat or have a need
to assimilate. Not that I'm not saying that I assimilated completely, but
you try to put your culture on the back burner, so that you can fit in, or
at least that's how I felt growing up. But now that I'm, you know, grown
up, and at this point in my life, I'm starting to
pick up my culture more and try to retain my culture more than I did when
I was growing up here in states.
Sahra Tobe 25:52
Okay, so now, you said you guys have been living in Seattle for a bit and
you earlier you mentioned that
your family did eventually moved back to Minnesota. What prompted that
move?
Fatuma Tobe 26:06
So at the time I- my older brother was still in Minnesota, he was going to
college here. And then after he had graduated he told my mother that he
wanted her and the family to move back here and then my mom told him that
the reason I left there was due to struggles and not having a house stable
house and not having a job. So he had promised to buy her a house. And she
agreed she would move back if he did purchase a house for her and he did
so that's why we ended up coming back.
Sahra Tobe 26:44
And at this point, how many years have you guys been in the States?
Fatuma Tobe
Oh man, um
26:49
I'd say... 13 years about
Sahra Tobe 27:01
Would you say that you could have possibly expected.. when you were first
coming, did you imagine these, this much, these many things to happen?
Fatuma Tobe 27:18
No, we didn't. We didn't anticipate any struggles to be quite honest. When
you're in, in Africa or in other countries, people paint pictures to you
and glorify America and say that everything is easy. And basically money
grows on trees. And life would be perfect and peachy, we never anticipated
any struggles, let alone the struggles that we've been through.
So it was a shock.
Sahra Tobe 27:51
How do you think throughout the shock that that you mentioned just now
can you explain a little bit more about how
different things, different aspects of maybe your family background or
orientation were retained. Because typically during the process of
immigrating to different countries and things like that people may choose
to leave things behind and take certain things with them. What would you
say was left behind and, and taken with you on that journey?
Fatuma Tobe 28:30
I think language was the biggest thing that we have retained. And that's
due to our parents. They always made sure that we spoke our native tongue
at home
so that we don't forget who we are and where we came from.
So we we we rarely spoke English at home, with our parents
growing up
and my dad still to this day he's still he doesn't speak any English at
all at all at home.
So we definitely kept our language and
yeah, I think language is the biggest thing.
Sahra Tobe 29:21
Okay, so going back to the timeline. So at this point in time you guys are
in Seattle, and it's been 13 or 14 years. Then after the move back to
Minnesota. You said you began school again?
Fatuma Tobe 29:38
Yeah, I had actually applied to university while I was still in Seattle,
Saint Kate's University in St. Paul.
And then I got accepted. So I started that and I graduated with a
bachelor's from St. Kate's after four years.
Sahra Tobe 29:57
How would you describe your your time at St. Kates, in terms of maybe your
social life
changing back into being in an academic setting?
Fatuma Tobe 30:13
so I took three years of after high school so it was a bit difficult going
back to school.
And then after I had gone back to college my freshman year after I had
finished my freshman year.
Yeah, after I finished my freshman year, I got married. So I got married
and when I finished my, the rest of my schooling, it was three years, well
I was married throughout the process, will I was- in that three years I
had my daughter.
So that was an added struggle.
Being a new mom and
you know, continuing my education trying to finish on time with my peers.
Sahra Tobe 31:07
So I'm you spoke about
your struggles and in terms of in comparison with your peers, how would
you compare that with your struggles at high school? And would you would
you say that your responsibilities were more or less
in high school versus college?
Fatuma Tobe 31:36
So in high school, my struggles were different.
I felt like especially being, even though I had an older brother, but
being the oldest daughter in African culture, it's basically being a
second mom. So I had a, you know, I had the responsibility of helping my
mom raise my siblings and also on top of that,
going on working and paying the bills. Where in college,
before I got married that first year I still you know, worked here and
there to try to help my mom with the bills.
But after I got married, it was a different type of struggle.
Because I had no longer worked outside I just focused on my school and my
husband paid the rent or the bills and also paid some of my schooling for
me so. So I would say my, my college struggles were
were not are not as bad as my highschool struggles it's a different type
of struggle in that,
I, you know, studying being a college student is hard enough On top of
that, being a mother. So after I'm done with my studies, I would come home
to a child that I had to take care of. Or I can't be out late studying for
an exam, because I have a child at home so I had to prioritize my time.
Basically. Time management was was huge for me in college.
Sahra Tobe 33:27
And then also how would you describe like your social circles or um social
spaces um in college because in high school, it sounds like it was more of
just kind of proving, proving yourself to your peers and things like that.
How, how was it in college?
Fatuma Tobe 33:48
To be quite honest. I feel like I didn't really have much of a social life
growing up
in In like I say in high school, I was I had a responsibility a young age
where in college I, I kind of, I was used to, to the fact that, you know,
not having much of a social life, but I did have more of a, I did have
more of a social life than I did in high school. So I would I would go out
with friends here and there in college.
So, I mean, I feel like I'm just more of
a homebody, I guess, if you will.
Sahra Tobe 34:46
And then in college, do you remember any- do you feel like you're more in
touch with your culture in college because you said you spoke earlier a
little bit about now like now as of now, presently you find yourself
reaching back out and trying to connect back to those roots and things
like that. Did that start? Was there any inkling of that in, in college?
Fatuma Tobe 35:13
Um, yeah, there were there was a bit of that in college. But I would say
after I graduated from college and and just started, you know,
appreciating more of where I where I came from my heritage
as
I mean, I've always appreciated where I came from, it's just that I, I was
more
more about learning, where am I where, what happened to my heritage, where
I came from, or how all those struggles or all those background roots led
to who I am today. So I became, I began to appreciate more where I came
from and who I am. I mean, yes I'm Oromo but I grew up in in the in the
States, I also have that American identity as well. So I can't completely
rule it out, I can't just be like 'oh I'm Oromo only' and like I, you
know, I don't I don't identify myself as an American because I've been
here. So this is all I knew. Until recently, I went back home and then I
rediscovered my culture.
And, you know, where my family came from, and all that stuff. So, yeah.
Sahra Tobe 36:45
How do you how do you find yourself balancing those two identities?
Fatuma Tobe
Well,
36:56
like I said, I Before I went back home I, like I haven't been back home
for about 20 years until like, two months ago. But um so before I went
back home I would just be like, oh you know? Yeah I'm Oromo, like whenever
somebody tells me where are you from? Like yeah I'm Oromo, but I grew up
here so like, I'm Oromo-American.
But I'm more you know, like my dad would say I'm 'Americanized'.
But after going back home, I'm I'm more interested in learning about my
roots and teaching my kids the language and where they came from, and
hopefully taking them back and so they can, you know, not forget who they
are.
So I do I do, it's not about balance. It's about how you just
Be true to yourself and stay true to yourself and just
appreciate who you are.
Sahra Tobe 38:09
And then you You said it kids. So you had one in college, and then how
many have you had since then?
Fatuma Tobe 38:19
I have three, three kids now.
My daughter the one I had in college and then I
had two more boys.
Sahra Tobe 38:28
And then what year did you graduate college and with what degree?
Fatuma Tobe 38:32
I graduated 2016.
I was actually pregnant with my middle child. And I graduated with a
bachelor's in science and respiratory care.
Sahra Tobe 38:45
And are you working with that degree right now?
Fatuma Tobe 38:48
Not currently, I did work for about three years or so after graduation.
Sahra Tobe 38:55
And what are you what are you up to now?
Fatuma Tobe 39:02
I kind of want to do something different other than my degree so I'm I'm
pursuing like a business aspect of things.
Sahra Tobe 39:19
How would you describe your family life now?
Fatuma Tobe 39:24
The family I got married, the family I have, my little family or my..
Sahra Tobe 39:30
Your family like your mom, dad, your siblings.
Fatuma Tobe 39:39
How would I describe them?
Sahra Tobe 39:40
Yeah, what's what's the situation now? How, how would you compare it now
to how it was
when you were in high school, maybe?
Fatuma Tobe 39:50
Well, I mean, now everybody is grown. Everybody's doing their own thing. I
have my own family, so I try to focus more on my my small family. I do
still, you know, help my siblings and my parents here and there
wer'e a big family, so we, we're still, we're still
we're still help each other out
Sahra Tobe 40:27
Do you, do you see some of the
some of,
the challenges you faced growing up apparent now?
Fatuma Tobe 40:41
Apparent like in my siblings you mean?
Sahra Tobe
Yeah.
40:45
Fatuma Tobe 40:51
Yeah, you know, there's still there's still traces of that.
So the African culture or, you know, Oromo culture in general,
the parents, the kids are expected to help their parents whether they're
married or not, or whether they're young or or, you know, older or
whatever, you're still expected to help them somehow. Whereas in American
culture, the kids you know, prioritize most, mainly they prioritize
themselves. So I do see the challenges of my siblings having to, you know,
help out here and there with bills, if they're able to or just help out
around the house. So it was not like a selfish ideology. But everybody
helps. You know, or they, they're, they're expected to help out.
Sahra Tobe 42:04
And then for your small family, how do you expect your, your children's
experience to be in terms of their retaining their culture, retaining
their faith and also their identity as American.
Fatuma Tobe 42:27
So I do expect my children to definitely retain their, their faith. That's
number one for me is number one priority. And I do definitely want them to
retain their, their culture as Oromos. But I, you know, it's all about the
environment. My kids are born here. They'll grow up here. So They're not
going to face the challenges that I faced growing up. But they will, I'm
pretty sure they're going to have their own set of challenges. And
balancing their identity as an Oromo- American is definitely going to be
more challenging for them then for me, I would say because my parents are
are immigrants and I'm a product of an immigrant. Whereas my kids I would
say like their fourth generation or third generation, third generation,
so, they would not have the luxury that I had here a you know, in the
household of speaking the language. Strictly the mother tongue whereas
with my kids, I speak mainly English and they speak English to me. We do
try to speak to them in in Oromo, but it is it is It's challenging for
them to just speak Oromo fluently, or to know Oromo more than English.
Because they, I mean, my kids there, they identify themselves as
Americans, they don't they don't know what oromo is. So that is what I
hope to teach them and hopefully take them back home so they can
experience that, that that life that that that I came from, so it's
definitely more challenging for them, than for me.
Sahra Tobe 44:36
And can you recall any cultural or religious institutions that you're a
part of that could help in keeping those identities alive, I guess.
Fatuma Tobe 44:48
Um, so my daughter does go to a weekend school for our faith, and so that
she can learn the Quran and the Arabic language and then the masjid in
Minneapolis, Towfiq Islamic Center it's where we mainly go for prayer the
stuff so.
Sahra Tobe 45:17
So aside from retaining those identities, what other concerns do you have
personally, not just for yourself but maybe for other other kids growing
up with the same identity as you?
Fatuma Tobe 45:44
Other than them losing their identity. Um, other than that, I mean, every
other challenge that every parent has, whether my kids going to be a good
kid or not, Whether they're gonna get caught up in the wrong type of
friends or just being at the wrong, wrong time, wrong place wrong time. So
safety, especially with what's going on nowadays is the biggest thing.
Especially for you know, a black Muslim, um being easily targeted. So that
is, that, that is, safety would be the biggest concern.
Sahra Tobe 46:38
Yeah. And just to wrap up, tell me a little bit about what, what your
ideal future would look like. Maybe 10 years from now, five years from now
from yourself. Where would you like to be? Maybe with your um, you getting
back in touch with your cultural roots? Or even just with the faith aspect
of it? Or even just with maybe your, your business venture you're talking
about? Where do you see yourself potentially in 10 years?
Fatuma Tobe 47:20
So in 10 years, I hope to be financially stable enough to retire my
husband so that he could be home with us. I also would like to be just,
you know, to visit back home more often to take my kids there to
potentially establish maybe a second home there, so that we could go for
like summer vacation there. You know just to have the freedom of time and
the freedom of money is my ultimate goal. And to hopefully, you know,
expand my knowledge when it comes to my faith and when it comes to you
know, my culture, my roots just to be you know in a better in a better
place and stable enough to be able to do something for a good cause maybe
I've always dreamed of building an orphanage back home to help orphans
back home, or you know, build a masjid or build a woman and children
hospital back home, that's very needed that's necessary for, for mothers
and babies to be able to be safe and, you know, have a place where, to you
know, to get optimal care. So that, that's that's my ultimate goal. And if
they happen in 10 years, that's, that's more than, more than I could ask
for.
Sahra Tobe 49:20
Okay, well, thank you so much for speaking with me today.
Fatuma Tobe 49:29
Yeah, no worries. Thanks for having me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting
an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to
interview...state your name, please.
AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan.
MM: How's your day?
AH: Pretty good. How are you? How ar... Show more
MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting
an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to
interview...state your name, please.
AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan.
MM: How's your day?
AH: Pretty good. How are you? How are you, man?
MM: not bad, you know, doing well. Thank you very much. So I'm here to interview
Abubakar at Augsburg library. Today is December six 2019, and thank you for
participating in this Abubakar
AH: yeah no problem.
MM: And would you please start giving us information about your background and
education please?
AH: Yeah, of course, of course. Um, my parents are Somali. I grew up in Minnesota, but
I left when I was a kid. I went to Egypt to live there and six years I traveling with my
parents. Then I came back around 2016 I had to come back because I was losing my
English, and I wanted to get back where I was before...uh so around 2016 I started
sophomore year in high school...uhm...I wasn't that strong of like my education It was
kind of pretty weak because I would be gone from a long time from America so when I
came back I just I had to start all over again, my English, my grammar wise meeting
new people's starting like-starting new school again start fresh get you know get I have
to get-I have to get used to the winter now because like I haven't been winter for so
long, and I forgot about it when I came back. So as you knows, it's been a while now.
Now. I'm just Augsburg university student I'm studying doing my work and I'm just doing
me I'm in a team. I'm doing a track field. I'm just yeah doing me right now
MM: very good.
AH: Yeah.
MM: And you said you went to high school right?
AH: Yeah.
MM: and what was the name?
AH: I went to Edina high school.
AH: Yeah.
MM: And that was a big school wasn't it
AH: Yeah it was a big school basically was the thing was the top five school.
MM: Wow. And whats the graduating class.
AH: uh....
MM: Estimate?
AH: The estimate? I-i'm no 100% sure but I think it was around 950 of us.
MM: Wow. So almost 1000 right?
AH: Yeah, it was it was crazy.
MM: So that was a big school was it?
AH: It was definitely a big school.
MM: And you really loved it didn't you?
AH: Edina? Not really. Uhm...(Laughs) It was a great school where I started but you
know, it was it was a lot a weird school. You know, it was it was a white school. So i-it
was just, you know, it was pretty weird. I like to teachers those cool people there. I love
the sports. You know, it was like it There is, it got me a good memories, you know?
MM: Speaking about memories, so uhm what do you recall about your childhood?
Ah: My childhood?
MM: Yes....Yeah, so let's like, go back to like until you were a kid.
AH: Cool. Okay. So as specifically you're talking about when I was a kid, I was a kid and
of course I lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but not Minneapolis just Minnesota. I lived
here when I was like, What? 10 nine years old. So I haven't I haven't been in middle
school for so long in here because I skipped for so long. I came back freshman year. My
childhood wasn't that you know, that fun? It wasn't that difficult also to but it was. It was
a great memory of my m- when I was a kid. You know, I went to a uhm like religion
school. I've learned bit-I've learned about some of my religion. You know, I went to I
went sport. I went to uh-I sometime work sometimes but I actually don't because my
parents won't let me because I was too young. But I wanted to work, you know, to help
out myself and help out others too and my parents and my family, but my parents won't
let me. So yeah, my childhood wasn't that difficult but it was it was there was a lot of
good memories in there
MM: Yeah as I can see. And as a child, you know, do you remember where like where
did you live, go to school?
AH: uhm School wise I probably don't remember but I think I lived in Plymouth. uhm I
lived there..uh I think I think two years...uhm no, no I lived in I lived there for a while
lived in a while. For school wise I don't remember hundred percent because I left long
times. I don't remember what school that I go to.
MM: Makes sense okay. And uhm...what did you remember, remember about your
parents as a child, not now, specifically, but back then?
AH: As my parents?
MM: yeah, what did you remember best about your parents?
AH: I mean, I mean, they're same as who they are now. My parents are hardworking,
they're funny they're smart. I love them both through a bottom bottom my heart I wish
they can be held you know happy together their are no hope they'll be you know, hope
they go heaven you know inshallah...And uh but my parents, you know, they, they were
they came from Somalia to here you know, there was a both were immigrants, they
didn't know what they were doing Minne- Minne in the USA. So they had to work hard,
you know, because they had the had of kids, you know, they had they get it they have to
get money. They have to save up they had to get a house he had you know, you know,
health insurance. You have to get everything ready. They're hard working people I can
see and I want to do what they did. You know, I want to follow that. their footsteps so I
can repay them back what they did for me? So they're are good parents and I love them
so much. So I-they're great. They're great. T
MM: Mhm. They're great parents. That's very good to hear. And are you an only child or
did you have nore siblings?
AH: No, I'm the middle child.
MM: Wow. Yeah. So you get the most hate.
AH: Mostly Yeah. (Laughter) I'm also getting most of the hate in from the brothers and
sisters.
MM: All the backfire huh?
AH: Yeah, the backfire? Yeah, most parents look up the middle, I look up the older and
also talk about the youngest, you know, the middles like it was okay, you know, like,
hang in there. You got it, like (chuckles) in the middle does not matter. So it's like it's
cool, but also, you know it's okay,
MM: So were you uh were you an obedient child with the mischievious one?
AH: Um, that's a funny, I was kind of both because I was good, and I was also bad. So I
was like, I was a kid. You know, we don't care as kids wise. We don't have Both we
have like, we could do bad or good thing the same way you know what I'm saying but I
was I was both to be honest. I was both.
MM: Mhm. Wow. And how many people are you in your family?
AH: Uhmm in total right now? I think there'll be seven, eight or nine of us.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah.
MM: that's a big family.
AH: It is
MM: and you're right there in the middle.
AH: Yeah. Yeah.(Laughs)
MM: that's actually good to hear. So you are the middle child. of...household of seven
plus your mom and dad.
AH: Yep.
MM: And you are as of now 18 years old am I correct?
MM: 19? Okay.
AH: 19(Whispers)
AH: yeah, I'm 19
MM: Okay. And you you do have older siblings and right that you do look up to?
AH: Yes, I do. They're the-Yeah, the the older than me. I very look up to them because,
you know, they made mistakes. They made a path where they were looking for and I
want to follow their footsteps. You know, they told me like, Hey, don't do this. You know,
like, hey, follow follow our steps but not exactly, you know, you got to make your own
path to follow us. And I'll follow don't make mistakes that we did, you know, do the right
things, but don't do the bad things we that we did you know, I'm trying to look up to them
and be a better Brother, you know, and, and also, you know, I have a little sisters too
show them like hey be you know, be be a good girl, you know, like, follow us and I'm
teaching my sisters and my brothers, you know, be a good, you know, school and
having our education education is number one first.
MM: Yes. And uhm speaking of family...let me ask you a question. Did your family have
any special traditions such as things they did on holidays or maybe birthdays?
AH: Well, I don't know about birthdays. I mean, I think that do...uhm but not my parents.
I think my brothers like wives they do like when their kids have a birthday party. They do
mostly but it was specifically my parents. Probably like Ramadan.(chuckles) Like mostly
like Islamic religions traditions, that's it but like nothing else because they don't care.
And this one we don't we don't follow those because they're like, my parents are like,
religios-religios all like, but they don't they don't care about birthdays or anything else
like that.
MM: They just cared about your education.
AH: Yeah.
MM: Working hard.
AH: Yeah.
MM: getting the job done.
AH: Yep, of course.
MM: Yeah, so um, just tell me about your parents...or like their background, how they're
working.
AH: yeah. Um, so, my, my dad side, you know? My grandma, I never met my grandma
because she died when I was born. like two months later when I was not, no of course
when I was born. My grandpa, he's still alive. I can't meet my grandma, my grandpa
because he said I have to memorize the Quran and I have to know Somali to visit him.
So that's the one thing I can't do. I almost finished the Quran, but Somali, I'm really
tough to learn, but I'm trying my best to meet my parents and my, my mom's side, my
dad's side. My mom's side there that their everywhere guarantee. I like my mom told
me, their family, the Sister whatever they like the everywhere else like I want to meet
them. You know I want to see you know, my parents My parents side so Starting later
on, I want to slowly get to my traditions from my meet my generations me my life, my
parents side me my, basically I want to see my family tree before I die. That's my that's
basically my main goal. I want to see my family, the whole family, you know, I want to I
want to know, my generations I want to see I want to know by stories on what I want to
see what happened, you know who, what is like, I know I want to I want to know
everything from my generation.
MM: Yes, that's a very important thing to do. Also and As a kid growing up where were
you?
AH: I don't have a lot of details but-I lived in Plymouth, but later on I lived in Egypt
MM: like you said, Egypt okay, so how each like.
AH: crazy man if you want me to tell you the whole story Egypt is actually a beautiful
place is very hot very hot. The people are funny I guarantee that some people come
with like the first days they think like oh my god that people are rude or like they're not
be nice No, like I when I just moved there is I already loved it because people were
funny people were you know, there's some rude people but like they're they're so
they're so funny. And and I'll slowly learning their language, like learning the culture,
learning like what like what would they eat, what they do, how they sleep and what they
talk about. They're play, you know, I played I played soccer like, three o'clock A.M like,
that's that's a crazy thing you know, like we play football during even Ramadan. Like it's
just crazy, like Egypt is a beautiful spot and a beautiful place to learn, like who you are
and what is your religion you know, you know it's a it's a great spot to visit and I love it I
like I want to go back again like hopefully later on, you know, and I want to have kids
and I want to show them like this is this is the place when I figured out myself and who I
am and like learn what is my religion like religion and all that. So we're Egypt is a
beautiful place in you know, it's not a great place to live but as a great place to visit and
to understand, like Islam. If I'm talking specific, it's a great place to understand.
MM: Yeah, so yeah, and also leaving America and going on with Egypt. How do you like
weigh it out America versus Egypt? You know lifestyles.
AH: LikeMM: how would you explain that
AH: Like compare?
MM: Yeah.
AH: Well, if I say comparing like when I first came to-when I first came to Egypt, the
people at the airport very friendly for some like, very friendly. You know, they gave me a
kiss On the cheeks like Both I was like, Wait, what? I was confused. So, you know, like
they're, they're very nice. They're cool people I love them. When I came to Egypt came
to USA matter of fact, you know, it was I came during uh heat, you know, summertime it
came in around May, so later on and on when winter came, I didn't like I was like, Whoa
What is this, you know, because I forgot snow. So people were like, there's I didn't-did'nt
like the energy you know, I didn't I didn't like the vibe because there's still some
negative vibe in America and I didn't like it because it's like what is this you know there's
some people looking at you like like why are they looking at me like this you know
there's some this there's still negative vibe. like I'm not saying just America this
everywhere but like if I compare them in America is definitely America the you know,
because I just you know is the vibe in the energy how America brought to me and how
broad the Egypt it's just, the scales way different 100% way different
MM: And as a cultural standpoint you would they would very be you know different
right?
AH: yeah yeah even a cultures religions you know I've Egypt Br--. I can hear you know
the prayer time I can hear like one What time do I have to go the prayer what time I can
hear it. Like in America, I can't, I have to look what time is Prayer, you know, and I have
to drive there and I have to like basically pray. But there's also less people there in
Egypt. I can hear the prayer. I know I don't want to I don't want to know the time I can
hear and just go there and in like, the mosque is just packed. And that's what I love
about it because the brother and sisters are together and learn about religion. That's
what I love about it. So it's like, Is it so it's a whole different you know, thing when I
came to Moved to Egypt to USA is just a whole different vibe when I came there so
MM: Mhm. And also where you live in Egypt?
AH: uh I lived in Cairo.
MM: oh Cairo.
AH: Yeah. It's a it's aMM: part of the country huh?
AH: yeah It is a beautiful It's a beautiful spot. I love it is people that I think Cairos of best
spot is to go visit. So let me talk about you a little about Cairo. So Cairo is is a big is a
big city, it is. I love it there. You know, there's the Red Sea is beautiful. Alexandria is
beautiful. You know, like later on I heard of this of myth. There's a city under the water.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah,
MM: You talking about Like, like Atlantis,
AH: basically like that. Some people I even I visited there too. I I went scuba diving,
scuba diving with my friends. So we were just like, hey, well, this is this is check if we
you know if this is a lie or truth, you know, we did we scuba dived Do we at least like
later, five minutes later we thought we didn't see nothing but we got deeper deeper in
the water. And we did saw we saw statues we saw, like buildings we saw, like so many
things. And I was getting scared. I was like shit. I don't want this. So, so I was, the myth
was true. I was it's a beautiful spot. I swear Alexandria is the most beautiful place I've
visited. You know is is big you know the water is beautiful the people are awesome
people are nice friendly all the food is so delicious also too and I love it so yeah is I don't
know if you know every heared fuul is known as fuul the GrateMM: like beans yeah
AH: it's delicious man. I love it.
MM: You're absolutely true
AH: is is I mean there's another word but I forgot what it is. But it's great in the morning
you know there's some some beans with some bread and you know some like also
some water bro I've been eating so many healthy food.(Laughs) I'm not gonna lie like
I've been eating healthy when I came back here I was like geez
MM: It's like it it's like the best environment for a person.
AH: Yeah it is. Yeah for real but yeah man I'm sure Cairo it is a beautiful spot and I love
it. I like it. You should also visit there two man.
MM: Yeah. And um, let's go back to comparing you know, USA and Cairo since you
know you liked here in there, you know
AH: compare like Cairo and Minneapolis?
MM: Yeah and um, you did live in Minnesota. Yeah. All your life, right? Plus when you're
traveling outside of the state. So, racial-wise, how would you say It affects you?
AH: Raciali-wise? I think it's like-I mean, okay, Egypt they're not racist they're just like
they're going to say you're not...you're not like Egypt you're not you know egyptian
you're not Arab you know, but like they're not the never racist you know, they love you
when you hear you know, they love it. They love us, but they're not gonna say like, a
you know, bad things to us then I look back now. They disagree know, when they're
mad, they're mad. You know, they're gonna say you're not one of us but later on they're
gonna apologize but if you can compare to that in America America is 100% I guarantee
probably bad vibe and like the racism is over there I guarantee that this still going I think
it's still going it's still out there some America people are still racism. So...uh.. to
compare, I can say probably 80% sent to the people in Egypt was probably 80% like not
racist people there or probably 89 but in America guarantee of this probaly like people
who are I guarantee you probably like 70% probably 60 Yeah, what I experienced, you
know, it's not just Minneapolis or Minnesota, this other state and other country and you
know,
MM: Yeah you see the news.
AH: Yeah, it's the news, man. The news is there's this still going on bro there's still
there's still hatred like I don't get it you know why why do they hate us? You know
we're-we're we're them but different color like what that what does that make a different
you know you know I'm saying but like I you know I've been my experience so many
times and you know I don't like it you know Michael Jackson said you know it doesn't
matter if you're black and white and I know that in the impact me I was like, if that
doesn't matter to us why there's still hatred you know? I don't I don't get it is it just some
people are just dumb and they can't they can't move on. They just like all these people
just bad doing is like okay what we doing to you first of all, you live in your life where we
live in our life. So why are you trying to ruin ours you're not trying to ruin yours. It's like
you think you you're trying to say Americans Americans-the United States is a free
country. is a free land. Really is not you should you should just change that because
that's all a lie. You know? When I first here I-I just hated it. I really hated America
because this is all free land. People are nice but that's that's the dust is full of crap. It's
just a lie You know, people just care for the money wise the fame. But here's the
education is very high. Yes, I'll give you that education is very high here But people wise
or not it just just rude and ridiculous r------- and I just......Oh, I'm so sorry man. I was
going in I got I got overthink myself. I'm sorry I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. Uhm
So, but comparison man, I don't know they're both different. But to be honest, whatever
is home is home I'm not saying I loved each other more than America Because I can't
because the both of my homes above love it. So either way, whatever makes me happy
what it makes me in the best country you know, I live in other you know. So yeah, man.
MM: Yeah and while you were at Egypt, you know how would you say when you were
you were struggling when you're there you know off course yeah the language
adaptation of ours. Would you like to talk about that?
AH: Yeah, yeah of course man either Living Egypt being the first guy you know,
knowing-not Arab is is really hard because I understand nothing, you know, at least my
dad had some friends there who understands they can help us. But it was hard it was
very hard to understand the people is hard to go outside to make friends even hard to
go grocery shopping, you know, it was just hard man even hard even the prayer time. I
can you know, I can hear that even though Friday prayers I under I didn't understand
nothing. But later on, you know, months months, you know later when I was learning
understanding and becoming one of them. I understand I felt happy because I
understand where we're the same where it was like you know like I can come back you
know if someone example of there's a fight or there's like discussions or something like
that I can come I can join in I can't, I cannot stop it or like do anything with it. So I'm
really happy that I learned it. But like, it's been years, to be honest has been years now.
So it's slowly slowly I'm forgetting the language what I've learned by don't want to lose it
because I want to go back and we like we learned it again. And I want to I Arabic to
stick with me because I was the number one thing I want to learn for like you know,
because is, is the language of the Quran you know to understand the book is still he
knows the is the words of Allah and Is is great to understand it if you know if you know
the language.
MM: Yeah, that's true. And how did your life change? Did you feel grown up?
AH: Oh of course man. When I first came there I feel like a baby when I came back
here, I felt like a man. You know, I was like oh man like I came back but see my
brothers and sisters, you know? I don't know. I think I feel like I've matured You know,
I've I feel like I'm mature Even now I feel like I'm even maturing than before you know?
So it's it's like that you know is I like it I like it. I like I like I like me now that before
because me now before is way better because I understand who I am I understand
what's wrong was right I understand what I'm going to do my future I know what it's
going to happen, you know, not that kind of way but like you know I'm saying like No
Okay, this is wrong. I gotta do this. If I if I'm going to do this, I know it's going to happen
you know that it was a punishment that I'm going to say. But yeah man.
MM: Uhuh, and also which significant historical events have taken place during your
lifetime
AH: significant...
MM: you could take your time...
AH: So Okay, okay. I don't know a lot of details but I can say that you know, I came from
Egypt you know the story I was locked in I didn't know English my education was weak.
So it was kind of hard for me I never I never think of-of graduated high school with
scholarships and having like a 4.0 GPA, like it's even surprising....or you can say 4.0 I'm
say 3.9(Laughter)...but I will say 4.0. but... is I'm I'm just surprised and happy that I even
graduated. You know, I even during the graduation, their principal announced the, the
three best up students and I was one of them. So he called the all three Students, but
those three are always in them. So he called the other cut in on one of them. One of
them. That was me. He called my name up and I had to stand up and I had to say
something, you know, called three best students. And now I was happy I even I even I
was in it, you know, I didn't knew. I didn't know I was in it. But like, I was surprised when
I looked at my parents, you know, I was like, wow, like, he was the best fit students. So
it was like, I was I'm happy that I was and you know, I'm gonna miss my friends. I miss
my friends. You know, I used to know who was like going to college away but like, you
know, I still contact them and hang out with them. You know, as he was great. You
know, my life story has been great. That's one of its But mom, my second one...I don't
know why I followed my sports. Sports wise, you know, I been playing soccer for since I
remember. You know, I was a always, you know, the fastest kid, you know, I was
running, running every time going to condition a ball back forward, back forward back
forth. Later on in high school year, I realized that, you know, soccer wasn't me, you
know, I thought it was but it wasn't me. Then I tried to ice you know, I tried track and I
was fast and I made it on the varsity captain. Like it was crazy. I was like, what how like,
but I mean, I'm even happy that I even made it you know, and track was my thing. You
know, that's why I'm doing track in college because I love running for some reason. I
just love running....except running run away from my dad's belt.(Laughter) But is you
know, all man it was it was a great experience. I love it. I'm still running till now. I'm still
running. I'm trying to find When's is the last finish line.
MM: There we go. And speaking of school, uh how would you say about this was your
family financially comfortable?
AH: Um, I can say yes and no I'm gonna say To be honest, I don't know I think the both
because some of the we have to use some of the government some of us like the other
guys we got it, we can take care of it. But like it does almost a almost a no to be honest
but I'm 100% sure, you know some parents they say, Oh no, it's fine but later on is fine
but you know, I'm not hundreds of sharing I'm apparently still keeping Thanks for me,
you know, but like to be I feel like they're I think they're fine. They they can take care of
themselves. They're fine. The financial aid and health wise I think we're good. You
know.
MM: Mhm. And when we're talking about, you know, financial whar was your first job,
you know, how old were you at the time? Oh, how did you get the job?
AH: My first job was in Egypt.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah, I was a song some clothes, like pillows clothes, like any like closer, like
ripped and it was my first job ever, you know my dad, my dad, my you know he didn't
want me to work there but I wanted to because I wanted some money and like helped
him too. But he told me to don't do that. No just quit and it's like Forget it, you're too
young. But later on I my second job I first actually officially Job was McDonald's. It was it
was McDonald's man. I'm not embarrassed with that. Because McDonald's actually like
taught me so many things like patients like helping customers and like understanding
what the like what is going on like yeah to be faster you have to be like, you gotta you
gotta do things right you know, so McDonald's taught me a lot of things you know the
fooder Okay, you know the stuff disgusting but I still I still eat it. Sometimes you know,
you know, food or Good buy like McDonald's was my first job ever, you know? It was a
great experience.
MM: Mhm. And you know, since we're talking about jobs, those the two jobs you had in
your life only or did you have more jobs?
AH: I had more jobs Yeah. And more jobs. My first wants McDonald's. Second of all was
in a gym Planet Fitness. My third job was on Costco. My first my fourth one was in is in
homecare I'm working right now and recently was a great job I love it I'm not gonna quit
anything that is a good job and I'm just like I'm done and taken care with for clients on I
have to give them meds and just watch them do it cool guys man they are independent,
they're funny, and they're making me laugh. I make them laugh. We do things in the
house. You know we clean up we know we vacuum we're cleaning you know shovel the
road. Would like our sidewalk You know, I'm saying it was it was a good you know,
those those guys are good you know the funny and I love them you know take care of
them. They're good guys.
MM: Yeah and um when we're talking about you, um what physical characteristics in do
people in your family share?
AH: so as least we mean by that?
MM: Like....people in your family like what are their characteristics?....you know like the
way you guys act I think you guys resemble each other?
AH: Well, okay. I understand now. I think it's mostly from like my dad side mostly
because like the boys I think we're just like funny cuz my dad is funny man he like he's
he's a talker. I'm not gonna lie. He's a talker and when he's Start something he he goes
he cannot stop. And you know that's one sometimes I board like when he sees friends
will check Hey dad look over there you know, Jay avoided because he talks to talks you
know my dad talk I love about that you know he's nice funny he's a target guy
sometimes you see no he's a serious man also too. So I think we get that from him. And
from the girls side I think my sister's got from my mom, you know, they my mom have
you know, she she loves fashion she loved like showing off like she, you know, she's
funny too. She's my normal mama queen. I love her. She's my queen. Like I love taking
over, you know, take it out, you know, she she likes showing off. She's funny. She's a
hard working person. I think we all think we got them from them, you know from our
brothers sisters. We got both of them, you know, half and half. got both of them.
MM: So You Think You resemble your dad and your mom also home?
AH: Yeah, yeah.
MM: That's really good. And what part did religion play in your family actually?
AH: So... uh we played we're Islams we're a Muslim family...uhm we're Muslim family
we believe in only one God in names a lot we have prophet named Mohammed
(S.A.W). So our religion is pretty is pretty strong, you know is is the most peaceful
peaceful religion and I back then I never knew was actually what is Islam you know i
and when I went that's why I went to Egypt and I wanted to know understand what is
what is like Islam but first place I actually went was Kenya but I've been there only for
two months at that point it was I really hated to Kenya I actually did. So that's why I went
to Egypt to talk about Egypt more than Kenya because Kenya was Really not my place
but the king is beautiful was not me. But Egypt was actually a strong religion and I want
to talk about it because Egypt is a religion country and I love about also to and I'm
awesome I'm a proud of Muslim I'm happy I'm happy by that I'm not I'm not gonna lie or
hide anything about it but my whole family's Muslim You know, my whole family, my
brothers sisters mother parents, the world Muslim my parents taught me about Islam
prayers, and we know what we're talking about but Ramadan we're talking about aid
and you know is so traditions you know, talk about our parents taught me about
generations, what is Ramadan? What is he What is this lamb bonus Muslim told me so
many things about my religion, that who I am right now that's why I'm standing up as a
Muslim men and you know, helping others and teaching one another in helping our
brothers and sisters, you know?
MM: Yeah. And also did you go to you know, religious services on a regular basis? You
know, in your case, a mosque?
AH: Yes, of course. Yes, of course. I have a mosque right next to my house. I pray Yes,
of course I pray but you know, slowly, slowly, slowly, you know, I'm slowly losing it, but I
want to get back up again. You know, I want to get back who I was because America is
slowing me down To be honest, man, like, I want to pray. I'm getting back up again. And
we'll start praying I'm trying to become in me, way back then. And I don't want to lose
that.
MM: That's very true. And uhm Abubakar uh, how do you actually see yourself in 10
years future?
AH: in 10 years? As the one thing I there, man I'm not God I don't know my future back
see myself right now. Probably going to help people I'm helping myself helping my
family my parents and I want to understand myself and figure out what is my major and
right now understands my majors computer science, you know, I'm doing game designs
I'm doing graphic design soldier, I'm do Web Designs, computer sciences. Me, man. I'm
doing very interesting. Well, yeah, I love tech and I am a nerd. You know, but, you
know, I want to keep doing what I'm doing a number of future futures to feature can
change, no future can change whatever path I'm going, I can change the wheel and my
future can change like an instant you know, so whatever happens happens, but I want
to make it I want to make it successful and make my parents proud and and soon later
get married man first, I gotta take care of myself before I can can't take care of someone
else. You know, you know, pay And my parents said, Oh, I want to get married. I told
him said how I can take care of someone else. But even I can take care of myself.
That's even more struggle for me. So I was like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go take my
time travel, I'm gonna do me, I'm gonna do my education. I'm gonna have fun. You
know, later on when I'm started getting serious. Yeah, I might find the lady I love and but
I know get down on one knee and tell her Hey, be might be my wife, you know? But
yeah. as just one step at a time, just one step at a time. It's like a ladder, you know, you
got it, you gotta, you gotta you gotta find the exit. You know, basically, you know, I'm
saying like, you have the key, but you gotta find the door to unlock it. You know, if you
even found the door and your end is the right one. I think your your life will be
successful and you may be great in your life.
MM: So which leads me to my our last question. Yeah, and you know, since
Abukar-Abubakar since you are one of the youths of this community. How do you think
you know, with these dreams you have? How do you think you will build your legacy,
you know, in the future?
AH: by bringing brothers and sisters together, you know, because I see I can see
myself. Our brothers and sisters are slowly separate and away and I don't like that. I
want to bring it back together and helping the community and bring in as one Isaac
Islam and I want to build a community. I want to make a mosque, Elena, I want to hear
a prayer. You know, I want to hear prayer from like in my house like oh, prayer time, you
know, I want to bring it I want to make a community that everyone has Peace in life and
have a successful you know, Link two together and that's what I like about it and I want
to connect you to also my Somali brothers and sisters. And you know all my brothers
and sisters going to help me Everybody else who are Lady always who's stuck in
everything else, you know? I want to bring back everything you know, I want to bring
back the community. That's what I like about and I am ready i'm, i'm i'm 100% there yet,
but I'll be ready whatever I feel I am I am ready so that's what I like about it and man I
need find the door. I need I need to find the door. I'm-I'm slowly building my community,
I want to get better. I want to extend myself first. You know, get to know me. I want to
understand I want to get better. I want to learn the community. I want help my brothers
sisters, I want to learn my education. I want to get better and smarter. And I want to take
a time I want to take us low. You know...my experience back then, you know Cairo
being like, being beaten up and like understand and like the pain and the struggle. I've
been through I want to make that to like, in like a better thing, you know, because they
taught me so many things that I could not see. But I want to help my brother sisters by
exactly what I've been through but not as beating up them. I want to just open eyes by
words by you know, energy by spirits, you know, tell them this is what the way you're
looking for, you know, and if they lost or they need help, I'm the guy that Their looking
for it and know if they need help anybody. I'm here, I got you and I understand what
you're going through. And I'm I'm here to help you know, hold your hands go from go
wherever you're going. So I'm-I'm excited and whatever it leads me to it. I'm happy I'm
here.
MM: So to wrap things up Abubakar Hassan, thank you very much for you know, joining
me for this interview. I'm very thankful for you into you know, talking to me
AH: No problem of course, thank you for inviting me and telling me t-MM: Thank you very much. You're very welcome. And uhm uh would you also consent
this interview to be posted on Augsburg archives? It will be public.
AH: Yes, yes, of course.
MM: Mm hmm. All right. Thank you very much
AH: No problem. Thank you.
Show less
MM: Hello everyone. My name is Mohammed Musse I am a student
Augsburg University and I am conducting this interview for my Augsburg or
history 195 course. I am here with...I'm here with my interviewee, and
would you like to say your name, please?
IM: Hi. My name is Ibrahim Mohamud...uhm...I... Show more
MM: Hello everyone. My name is Mohammed Musse I am a student
Augsburg University and I am conducting this interview for my Augsburg or
history 195 course. I am here with...I'm here with my interviewee, and
would you like to say your name, please?
IM: Hi. My name is Ibrahim Mohamud...uhm...I'm Glad to be here today.
MM: Thank you. And would you also like to...uh...talk about your-state your
date of birth?....education, you know, history, history wise, what do you do
for a living?
IM: Sure, sure. So I was born April 1992, in Arlington, Virginia. Uhm...right,
about....five blocks away from the Pentagon...uhm, and I've lived there for
about 10 years. After that, I went on an international trip, lived in Canada
for a year, lived in Egypt for a year, lived in the United United Arab
Emirates for about three years. And then, you know, made my way to
Somalia, lived there for six years, back to UAE for a year. And then back to
Egypt for another two years. And then I was-I came back to Virginia again.
So all those years, you know, the whole family was moving around. It was
not just myself moving. And it was it was a good experience. It was a good
global experience. And I was very blessed to be...uhm...among, you know,
one of the few people that actually do travel around the world and live
around different countries. Of course, after that have came back to the
States. I lived in Virginia for about a year. And then I made my way to
Minnesota. So I've been here since 2011. I went to the U of M. uhm...I got
my IT degree in...uhm...from the U of M, and then I made my way
to...uhm...start an online Masters right now, which I'm currently pursuing in
IT management as well. And I work for Minneapolis Public Schools. I've
been with the district for about three years now. I'm responsible for all
student data...uhm and kind of making sure that the district gets all the
funds that they need, based on you know, enrollment and doing a lot of
data analysis and all that.
MM: So, wow. So you've clearly..uh...traveled around, you know, lived
through different cultures(coughs). Go with your family. And you know,
that's actually a good that's a really good experience in my opinion.
Also...uhm(coughs), you've had a quite good education.
you've...uhm...yeah you've, you've clearly been through a lot. So um, well,
my first question is, let's talk about your childhood.
IM: Sure.
IM: And what I'm going to start with is, what do you actually recall from your
childhood? You know, start off with Virginia, which is where you were born,
right?
IM: Yeah, sure. So, my childhood I still remember you know, all the fun
things. So really, things that you do in your childhood, really stick to
you...uhm, so you know..uh...uh of course, you know, before traveling. I
remember...one day for example, I went to...uhm...I remember like how our
family always used to, you know, go together, visit the mosque. For
example, go to
MM: Mhm
IM: movies together sometimes. Uhm and how we were all you know,you
know, w-we didn't have an extended family there as much as I do here in
Minnesota. So it was pretty much uh my dad used to work at the-for the
federal government and...uh...I remember like going to work with him, for
example, to play on computer when we never had that at our house...uhm,
and so, you know, I remember playing with the floppy disks, and, you know,
playing at his work computer-on his work computer over the weekends,
when everyone else was, you know, from the office, and so things like that,
you know, kind of stick around for for a while it
MM: Mhm. that was really good. Mhm, so uhm that's actually a...you know,
pretty good childhood yeah right?(chuckles)
IM: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I wasn't as fortunate as you, you know, or other
people that grew up having cell phones.(laughs)
MM: The younger guys.(laughs)
IM: So, you know, I'm not that old but
MM: you're not that old
IM: But yeah, I do remember you know...uhm...having to connect to the
internet to modem and so once you got connected to the
internet...uhm...your-your phone line would get disconnected for example..
MM: yeah(laughs)
IM: So, you know, those kind of memories are still there.
MM: Mhm. So uhm, as a young individual, um, do you recall where you
lived?...uh and like, went to school?
IM: Yeah. So I actually remember the school I went to, for example,
elementary was just called Garfield Elementary.
MM: Yeah.
IM: And, you know, I remember I used to play for the basketball team. Even
though unlike I was a young kid, and my brother all We used to go to the
same school as my older brother, and he was also-you know part of
the...the team at the school there. And so, you know uhm I even remember
my principal...her name was Bridget. I don't know her last name, but that
still
MM: That memories really is still good enough
IM: Sticks with you...uhm I remember my commentary that we used to go
ever since I was born, and so yeah, it's...those memories uh actually do
stick and I'm actually very surprised. I still remember until this day.
MM: Mhm. So, since we're still talking about school, let's actually fast
forward and you did say you, you went International, how school like over
there?
IM: Well, the difference was(coughs)...uhm so for example, when I first
went to the UAE..uhm..you know, my parents wanted me to make sure that
you know, I stayed...uhm in an English school, and so, there were not
many English schools that we can, you know, kind of afford, like, there was
an American school but it was kind of expensive, it was private.
MM: Mhm
IM: And you can't, you don't, obviously want to go to the public public
schools, if you want to continue studying your...uhm...you know, school
curriculum in English over there, so, I went to an Indian School, and I
remember, you know, it was a school majority Indian, and their studies was
actually very hard. You know, there were very tough in their math and their
science...uhm and, you know, I kind of liked playing cricket, for example,
sports that you know, I got to learn from there. But, you know, there is a
Also these weird things that we used to do every single day like for
example, I would, you know, stand on the assembly line, all the students
would, and we would sing the Indian National Anthem...uhm every single
day and so until this day, I remember some words of it the (Sings Indian
Anthem)
MM: (Laughs)
IM: and so uh you know, things like that are like uh it was a good
experience, and I remember...uhm there was this actually one funny story
that I recall from, you know, going there. I was a troublemaker back then.
And so one day I remember...uh...all the kids sometimes during the break,
they would jump off from the wall of the school and go to other stores and
buy some stuff like chips and stuff, and so even though the school had a
cafeteria and a store, so you know, I've done that a couple times. One day
while I was jumping off the wall with a couple of my friends. My mom was
actually driving In a taxi, driving by the school just happened to see me like,
jumping off from the wall and running away, and she was like(chuckles).
She pulled over right-right there, and then she caught me and brought me
into school, and, you know, I got in trouble, of course, and, you know, she
told the School of what was happening, how students were sneaking out
and..uh and, you know, after that, you know, is a big embarrassment of
course and, and, you know, I got in trouble that day.
MM: Yeah, that's a that's a really funny story, actually. And, um, since, you
know, since you our-you're living in an international country, you know,
you're living in an environment where the culture is not yours. And you
know, you have to pick up on a new culture every time you move, so what
do you think, you know, what did you think learning a different culture was
like, you know, how easy-was it easy was it hard?
IM: Actually...I would say was hard, uhm because if you kinda imagine this,
I'm leaving America. My parents are from Somalia originally. So I have that
mixed culture here. And then I go to the UAE, which is an Arab country. So
a totally different culture there. And then I'm going to an Indian School
within that. And so you can imagine how, you know, confusing that can be
for a little child, uhm but-but but I think it kind of gave me the perspective
of, you know, being a global citizen, and, you know, I got to make friends
that were um speaking Arabic-that were Arabs, from the neighborhood, for
example, that we used to play soccer with and, you know, they would come
over to our house when we would go to their house, to, you know, plgayin
Nintendo back then. And so, you know, I do have um...I was you know
fortunate to experience that, and in it's-it's-it's-it's a rich cultural experience,
I would say uhm that you really don't get anywhere else, you know. And in
the UAE For example, one of the main reasons why we moved there is
because my mom's family live there. And so, you know, I had family there
and had people there as well. So it wasn't like, you know, I was getting...I
didn't have friends or any of that noise. I was going home to my family.
MM: So you still had your family and everything. Yeah, I get it. And, um,
since you since you were from America, and your whole family had to move
out, and, you know, go to different countries. Was there a reason?
IM: No, I would say...uhm the main reason why was my mom just kind of
wanted to get closer to her family, and so this was a good opportunity, um
so actually, the first two months, we actually stayed at, you know, my
grandparents house, all of us, and-and then after that we moved, we
moved out and kind of had our own house, um but...you know, my mom
likes to joke sometimes that I was the main reason why she did that. You
know, one day I remember, uhm...you know, like, she just told me to stop
doing something, and I was like, yeah, I'm not doing it or, you know, she
told me to, you know, do something. I don't remember exactly what it was
now, but, you know, I called the cops on her.(Laughs).
IM: So she was like, "w-what are these guys doing? They don't"- and it
wasn't, you know, something that deserved a call. And, and they came over
and they're like, yeah, you know, I was like, yeah, I was just playing,
but...uhm...so my mom kind of talks about that, but the main reason why
was of course to, for us to visit family and kind of get to know uhm my
family as well, so, you know, I got to meet my grandparents, my uncle's, my
cousins, so it was a good experience overall, but I think that was the main
reason why, you know, my friends just wanted us to kind of get to know
and...be close with their family.
MM: That's nice. And since you mentioned, parents and everything, what
did you actually remember about your parents, your mom and dad actually,
mostly?
IM: So my parents, my dad first came here to the states in 1981, so one of
the very first uh people that actually came here from Somalia, um and he
came here for education and so he started you know, going to School and
earned his master's. And so for him I remember, you know, from my
childhood, as I said, I used to go to work with him when he worked for the
Fed-Federal government in the patent tree mark office, and so he used to
do all the inventions that used to come up, he would be, you know,
responsible, he was one of the engineers that would check and make sure
that, you know, it was not something that was trademarked and something
that, you know, the government was going to approve, uhm so, you know, I
remember him going to school for his master's in physics and, you know, I
would go and visit you know, the university with him in the lab, so, I have
that-I have that memory. I also remember how he would...you know, have
you would go to how you would study and all that, but, you know uhm it
was those good memories from that. My mom, you know, she also...she
had a, you know, different experience because her parents were diplomats
and so that she would also travel around the world, uhm and so I think
that's where I got my experience from, but overall, you know, you know,
they they were raised as well, I would say, uhm you know, I remember you
know, my dad used to work seven to seven. But when my mom was there
with us, and used to take care of us.
MM: that was pretty-was pretty-was pretty good, and uhm since we're still
on the, you know, family topic...uh you where do you fall in your family?
You know, how many siblings do you have? Are you a middle child, oldest?
IM: Yeah, I wish I was the oldest. (Laughs)
IM: I'm the second oldest of five siblings and three brothers and two sisters.
I'm second in charge.
MM: Mhm. Second line.
IM: Second in ch- uhm I would say I'm the Deputy Chief.
MM: Yes sir. uh huh. And uhm uh where were we? Alright, so we're still
family um, my next question is did your family have any special traditions
such as think that holidays? In your case it would be E-Eid right?
IM: Yeah...I mean...you know, just remember like for eat obviously we
would go over to pray in the morning and dress up and buy clothes and you
would dress up go to the mosque. Actually the mosque would, you
know...hold eat prayer at one of the largest venues like the convention
center or something like that, so we would go over there to pray. And then
after that, we would uhm go to Six Flags for example, I remember when I
was a child uhm...and and then obviously after that we would go out and
eat and it was it was a good, you know, always afun experience.
MM: Mm hmm. So, yeah. And you know, as a, you know, Muslim individual,
you know, you don't celebrate holidays, that you know, other religion based
people do?
IM: Yeah, we don't celebrate, but obviously we take advantage of the
opportunities that you know, people are offering so, we would always have
family get togethers For example, we just have one other one planned this
week. So it's, it's always an opportunity for, you know, for us to come
together and, you know, have many family reunions. We do that sometimes
we travel to Canada, for example, to visit my uncle and other times we, you
know, have, you know, local gatherings and kind of go out for dinner and,
you know, kind of socialize. And so-so, we we don't celebrate as a religion
but, but we do take advantage of the opportunity.
MM: Mhm. That's really good, you know, taking, taking actually take
advantage of opportunities like these, you know, brings. It brings families
together as one. And you know, that's actually a good thing that's going on
in your family.
IM: Definitely, definitely, and it's the only time that everyone is home.
(Laughs)
MM: Yeah, you're right.(Laughs). And my next question is, so which
significant historical events have taken place during your lifetime?
IM: Uhm...I would say traveling, you know, my most significant one would
be when I went to Mecca for an Umrah trip, and so what that basically is,
uhm once in a lifetime, every Muslim has to kind of go to the Holy Land in
Mecca, and Medina, in Saudi Arabia to perform uh their pilgrimage and so
there's an optional one called Umrah so that's the one that I did. I went to
visit, and you know, the most significant thing was standing under the
Ka'aba, that little cube that that's famous that, you know, people see on the
news and on TV. And so that was one of like, right, when I came under that
huge cube, you know, at first, you know, only seeing it from the top from TV
might be something that's actually that look them I look tiny, but it's huge.
And so, being there and experiencing that with my friends that I went with
him. Seeing like millions of people, there was was actually one of the most
significant things of my lifetime and I did that back in 2016. I think it was
right after I graduated and it was a fun experience. It was a, it was an eye
opening experience seeing people from all different types of life come
together from different places on earth and they're all wearing white two
white sheets, you can't wear anything else. Those are the only two that you
can wear. You can't have perfume on, you just take a shower, and then you
put those two garments on, and the richest person on earth and the poorest
person on earth are all equal, uhm, when they're standing there, and so,
you know, that was kind of like a...uh...it was it was a good experience.
MM: And, you know, clearly these these events, you know, they affected
you, right?
IM: Yeah, so You know, it makes you appreciate uhm uhm life and the
blessings that we have and it makes you kind of also think about the poor
and, you know, it gives you a perspective of, you know, help us do our It
kind of makes you appreciate that more and, of course, you know, knowing
the history behind that and and you know it being the two buildings Prophet
Abraham also is, you know, gives you that historical color text in Being
there touching it for example, and you know...knowing that this is
something that was built by Prophet Abraham also is, you know, something
of significant importance and kind of humbles you.
MM: Mhm. You know, I could actually see the The importance of actually
what you're talking about(coughs), and these are really you know
significant life-you know life changing events that actually have been going
around in your life and with you a here, you know, there's your parents
also, you know, and that brings me to my next question, you know. So you
said your father came here first. He was like one of the first people who
ca-came into, you know, America,
IM:from Somalia
MM: from Somalia
IM: He's not Christopher Columbus or anything?
MM: Yeah, one of the first Somalis. Yeah. Uh huh. And, you know, what
gave him the drive to you know, leave his leave his comfort zone, because
this was before the war, right?
IM: Yep.
MM: What gave him the drive to leave his comfort zone and come to a
place there's not his, and you know, start a whole new life?
IM: Yep. So it's Yeah, it's actually interesting because, you know, back
then, he wasn't coming here as a refugee. Um He was coming here. And
Somalia back then they had a good university they had you know a good
economy they had a good lifestyle going on, but um he just finished high
school, then he got the opportunity came here with a student visa that he
got from the embassy there, and so, you know, I guess, you know, he just
wanted to kind of further his education, have to get the experience and then
go back, uhm but he's been trying to go back for the past 40 years, and I
don't think he is going anytime soon.(Laughs).
IM: You know, because once you come here, it's like,
MM: you're stuck.
IM: Yeah. And you have kids and, you know, it becomes, you know, hard
in, of course, you know, the civil war happened and things changed since
he, he came here.
MM: And, you know, as you were growing up, actually, you know, what did
you recall, you know, did you do you think your family was financially
comfortable? In your opinion.
IM: I guess so. Because, you know, of course, I can speak to my earlier
years ago, right when I was born, but you know, he I remember my dad
was a student at one point, he was studying his master's. I...I was there
back then. I was alive back then, but things were comfortable because he
used to work, and then eventually, as soon as he kind of he was working
back then as well, while he was going to school, I think he was a research
assistant, and he was getting, you know, university for free. And he used to
work at the lab there. And so eventually, you know, he's he started working
for the government as well. So, you know, I think it was a decent middle
class. Family.
MM: Mhm. That's a really good thing, and uh since we're on the-since we're
on the topic, what was actually your first job? And you know, how old were
you at a time?
IM: (Laughs)That's a good one.
IM: So my first job was actually just Student lab, computers student, I
worked at the computer lab at my college, so that was my very first job. I
did that for a couple months. And then..uh and then I also started doing...uh
some hard....Iearned my money heart. Let's just put it that way. You know, I
worked at FedEx for a couple months. I think I did actually two months, and
then I just couldn't keep up with it with my schoolwork and, you know, came
out from work tired and, you know, I was like, You know what, school is
more important for me, and so, after two months, I had to quit, uhm but, but
you know, that was my first job, uhm and I think that kind of got me
interested into exploring the IT field, because it was one of my first jobs. It
was actually my first job as to Computer Lab Assistant
MM: Mhm. And on with these jobs also throughout your lifetime what
different jobs have you have during your life?
IM: So, you know I worked at Ramp A, in Minneapolis, right across Target
Field as I started off as a flagger. You know those people that come in flag
to have cars come in?
MM: waves the flags around you Yup.
IM: Yeah, calling people to come in for the events. So, I started off from
there. And eventually I liked my work ethic and I became an event
supervisor for ramp A, which is the largest ramp in the Twin Cities. And so,
MM: Wow
IM: I became an event supervisor, I would, you know, check the, the money
that the cashiers collect every single day for them and, and, you know, I
remember, you know, at one point, you know, putting in 50,000 $60,000
you know, from those ticket sales into the safe that we had, and, you know,
checking with all the cashiers, making sure that, you know, the amount that
they sold through the computer system is, you know, what they have in hat.
And so I was there for two years and I went from that being that flagger
there to, to being that event supervisor that would actually be in charge of
the whole ramp and you know, be in charge of the tickets being charged,
like that attendance that we're helping customers on all levels of the
parking ramp and so that was, you know, one of my jobs I worked at
Minnesota Department of Health for about two years, as a student intern
also uhm doing their video conferencing and and then, you know, worked
for a Capella for about a year, and their technical support team Capella AZ
and is an online university. Uhm and and then I made my way to
Minneapolis Public Schools doing System Administration for about about
two, three years actually, and then just now I started recently, the student
information Allen-analyst role where, you know, do Data Analyst for the
district and provide important data to the state and to other departments in
the district.
MM: Yeah, that's actually interesting. And it kind of actually looks like you,
you know, you've gained some leadership skills along the way. You know,
judging by you having these leadership skills, what physical characteristics
you know, do people in your family actually share?
IM: Are you talking about physical characteristics?
MM: Oh, yeah, yeah that's what I actually mean.
IM: Okay. So you know, physical character. I mean, they everyone says,
You know, I have my mom's nose for example.(chuckles) So I remember
her from the face and-and the height of my dad, but you know, there's a
whole debate between Who do you look like. I never seem to get that. You
know some people say you know you look like your dad some people say
like you look like your mom's side of the family but I think I look more like
uh like my uncle, from my mom's side. I think I resemble him more closely
from the pictures and from, you know, being there with him. But of course,
you know, we're made up of different genes and so
MM: Yeah, I totally get that, and, you know, since we're on this family topic,
did you remember your grandparents...from both sides?
IM: Yes. So I was fortunate to actually uh, I don't recall seeing my dad's
father, my grandfather. But you know, my mom's grandparents told me I
lived with them in the UAE for about couple years. And you know, we used
to visit them every year. So I got close with uhm both my grandparents.
uhm my grandmother is my grandma's right now. Absolutely, And
Mombasa, Kenya and I just visited her last year in March. So I got closer
with my grandparents. It's just my grandfather from my dad's side that I
haven't seen. And I don't remember I think I met him once when I was a
child and Egypt, but I don't have good memories.
MM: Mm hmm, and actually, the good thing is, you know, you know, getting
close to you know, being close to your grandparents is actually a good
thing to do in you know, it's actually a good, you know, thing to do in your
life.
IM: Yeah, yeah, because you can actually learn a lot of life skills.
MM: Yeah. And also,
IM: You know, they have the oral history, they have a lot of things that
MM: you can learn
IM: that you can learn.
MM: And also, what part did religion play in your family?
IM: I would say a very important role in my family. Both my parents were
religious in terms of like, taking us to the mosque and taking us to Sunday
school, weekly, and so, learned the Quran, uhm got to finish the Quran,
about 630 pages. I got that memorized, and so I'll say they were-they were
good influencing me.
MM: Mm hmm, and also, did you go to any religious services on a regular
basis, you know, so in your case, a mosque a local masjid?
IM: Correct Yes. so, been going to ever since I was a child, I still go on my
own now. You know, also, you know, attended classes and lectures
throughout my life and so, uh you know, when you go there when you're
young, when your parents take you there, when you grow older, you know,
you're going to go and take that initiative on yourself and so I was blessed
to, to be raised that kind of religious family.
MM: Uh huh. Yeah, so were you actually involved in, you know, different
organizations?
IM: Yeah. So when I came here in 2011, started volunteering with a youth
group here called build-building blocks, not a youth group, but an
organization that does social work and uh and has like youth group and,
and, and couple other functions, and so I started with a volunteering with
that organization and a couple other. So..uhm..uh I helped out with that.
And then I became a payroll specialist also like volunteering as of course,
so I actually used to cut like emergency checks for that the organization
used to pay to people in need, and so I would do that like twice a month
and do other volunteer work with a youth group that we started uhm...uh
with a couple other guys, and so we used to like host camps yearly and a
youth group that does also weekly basketball events, and so it's, it's, it's
been a good experience. A lot of those guys that we started off with back
then that were in starting freshman in high school, for example, some of
them were like middle school when we first started and Now the cool thing
about you know, that project is they're running the program now. And so I
don't do anything anymore because they're running the league. They're
running the camps. I kind of you know, help them whenever they need me
on the side, but they've matured and and they're kind of stepping up to the
plate now. So yeah, so it's, it's, it's it's a rewarding experience when you
get to to see what you are part of succeeding, because there is at least 180
people now that play in the league that the youth group runs, they have
high school division, a middle school division, uhm college division now,
and so it's, it's great.
MM: You know, that's actually actually a good thing, you know, to start on,
starting on with the youth, you know, helping the youth grow into, you
know, the, the right people they are, and also binding this with, you know,
the religion, you know, putting these two are very, they're, you know,
they're two very key aspects in their lives. Right.
IM: And, and it keeps a lot of people out of trouble, to be honest, because
they're, it's like a group where, you know, people like are playing sports for
example, in you know, they're staying together. They're socializing with
each other, you know, if someone falls off You know, people call out to, you
know, kind of help one another. And so it keeps a lot of us out of trouble
and the other thing is, like a lot of those guys that I was telling you that we
started off with in middle school, now a lot of them are in college, and
they're like, they even call me for, like, asking me for jobs and asked me
about, like, school course working. And, you know, I was actually a
reference for one of them, and they're all you know, my friends now and,
you know, it became, it became an employer reference. So, I've had
employers called me and asked me about these individuals and how they,
their leadership styles and what they do and, and then in, you know, I kind
of recommend I recommend them to them and, you know, I tell them, you
know, these are brilliant students, and, and really, outside of the
coursework and the work experiences that they have, they have these
leadership experiences that I've witnessed, you know, having them
see-seeing them like wonder organization and run, you know, these
activities, it takes a lot of leadership to be able to do that. And then it's
things that employers need.
MM: I know. Yeah, that's actually very interesting, you know? And also,
since you're working with the youth and...uh...what what you see in your
everyday life, compared to the youth, since you were back then you were a
youth also, obviously, and you would,
IM: I would say, I'm still a youth(laughs)
MM: Let's say, you know, you're getting older. You know,
IM: No, no dont say that.
MM: there's, you know, there's the youth and there's just you, as leader,
you know, you're this, you're that you're that shadow at the moment, right,
and how do you compare their, you know, their culture here, and the
culture that you went through, overseas, you know, as youth and even
though you're a youth right now?
IM: I think the global experience kind of helps shape you. And so he kind of
gave me the leadership experience that from a young age. So, you know,
when I was 18 you know, I was taking care of my family for example, I was
sending bills and contributing to the family and so a lot of people don't do
that here nowadays but uhm but, but the experience is kind of the same, I
would say...Yeah, I can't really tell any difference between the two cultures,
You know, the young people are...they have a lot of opportunities. And
sometimes you don't see that until sometimes your you go out to Africa, for
example, on different parts of the world where those opportunities don't
exist and people literally be like, die more. those opportunities like people,
cross rivers on a tiny boats. Just just to make it so that they can get
employment, and so I think, you know, having that experience kind of gives
you a perspective that you can appreciate and sometimes I feel like a lot of
people here, don't really see that. And so, you know, there's that, but,
nothing else is different.
MM: Yeah. You know, also, you know, the youth here also have the
opportunity. They have and the resources, you know,
IM: but sometimes they just don't know, they have that opportunity. Like,
you have financial aid, you have loans, you have opportunities to get grants
that are plenty in some people just don't seek that because they, they're not
aware of that. And so I kind of like to, you know, help you with a lot of youth
guide to do that. There's one day you know, all of a sudden, I found my
LinkedIn profile blew up, and so apparently, you know, all these youth were
telling each other we found out
MM: (Laughs)
IM: he's actually a big on there. And so they started, you know, adding me
on there and being like, asking me for recommendations,like so. So, you
know, I think it's important to be resourceful for the community and for the
youth. A lot of people don't have that mentor to face for example. Uhm A lot
of first generation parents didn't have education, necessarily. They came
here as refugees. And you know, those young guys and girls, a lot of times
don't have that mentorship in in their life, and so they don't have someone
that what went through that path that they're seeking. So I kind of like to be
resourceful as much as I can and be of help.
MM: Yeah, that's actually very, very, really interesting, actually. And, um,
you know, since you have a community here, you also have family
overseas. You know, me Somalia. And do you do you think you have some
sort of connection with them?
IM: Actually, yes. So we have family Facebook group that we connect on.
We have like WhatsApp that we connect on as well. And, and I stay in
touch. Oftentimes we have like, regular, every six months we have a phone
conference that everyone kind of participates in. Lately, we've been doing
video conferences and you know, we have people in UK, in Malaysia, in
Sudan, Ethiopia, Somalia, Canada, all different parts of the world from the
family that join in. And actually, before that, we were...I like to think that my
family is tech savvy, because we actually had a website, uhm for the family
back in two-thousand.....eight-nine? And it was kind of early on, but we had
a website where we had like family trees loaded on there. and you know,
people could just go on there and it still exists right now, I don't know how
it's maintaining(Laughs),
MM: (Laugh)
IM: for that long, but it still exists right now. It has a pass code that people
can log on with and kind of see the family trees and all that. And so it's, it's,
it's, it's, it's good to stay in touch with all those people. Because oftentimes,
I also travel a lot. So whenever I travel, I go to...I go to, you know, visit
family, relatives, different parts of the world. And so, you know, just two
years ago, I was in UK, visiting my cousins and so it's, it's good to stay in
touch with them. So, whenever you want to travel, you have that
opportunity and you have people to go to(chuckle)
MM: Your right, you know, it's actually a really good thing to you know,
build that connection with people back home or you know, living in other
countries. Which leads me to my last question.(coughs).What do
you-where do you see yourself in 10 years?, and while goals Would you
like to accomplish?
IM: Uhm I want to start my own business in 10 years. Obviously, I'll be
done with my Masters by this year, and so, you know, I want to start my
own business, travel a lot more often. That's a trend that I want to have
and, of course, have Jr, Ibrahim's running around. Hopefully, that's the
plan, but, you know...the businesses that I want to start, I want to make
sure it's something that benefits society and benefits, people and humanity.
So I have a couple of things in mind uhm that I'm working towards...so I see
myself working in that, and working in the humanitarian field. So, you know,
my goal eventually is to work for the UN, for example, and we'll see how
that goes.
MM: Sort of, like, you know, leaving a legacy, right?
IM: I'm just living life productive. I like to care about legacy as much
because I think that's, that's just going to be there, but I just want to, you
know, be productive and enjoy my, enjoying my youth as much as I can
and my engage in be a benefit to maker.
MM: Well, that concludes our interview today. You know, thank you,
Ibrahim very much for you know, telling me about everything.
IM: It was a it was a pleasure and you know, Augsburg University students.
Yeah. You know, I've seen ya'll around campus when I went to the U, but,
so very close, so keep on doing good work, and thank you for the
opportunity and have a good day.
MM: appreciate it very much. Thank you very much. And also one more
thing, would you? Do you consent on this recording to be published into the
Augsburg archives?
IM: Yeah.
MM: Thank you very much.
IM: Thank you.
Show less
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from... Show more
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota, but originally my
family's from a city in Somalia called Kismayo. They immigrated here about
25 years ago to America, but specifically Nashville, Tennessee, and after
living in Nashville for about two months and hearing that there was a
growing Somali community in Minneapoli, they moved here on their own like,
besides the asylum, they were given to Nashville. And once they reached
Minneapolis, they lived on Franklin Avenue for about two years.
Sahra Tobe 0:58
So you spoke a little bit about your family coming to the States. How long
ago did they come?
Salma Ahmed 1:04
Yeah, well, they came about 25 years ago, it'll be 25 years on August 31,
2020. I know the date specifically. But, um, ya know, so they came here
because of a civil war that was growing in Somalia, it wasn't not a
growing, but like a civil war that still continues to happen till this
day. And so by that by the time it started, three of my older siblings
were already born. And they had my, my other brother was on his way. So a
couple years after, so still couple of years before they came to America,
but they didn't want to raise their children in those conditions. And
like, obviously, they were looking for them to have the opportunities that
they were given growing up, and if not more. So once they came here, they
settled down on Franklin Avenue, like I said, and they lived in a
townhouse for a while, then after that they lived in another house. And up
until like our current house, so they were like lucky enough to have a
house built for them by Habitat for Humanity in like city center,
Minneapolis.
Sahra Tobe 2:18
And you guys are currently at that house still?
Salma Ahmed 2:20
Yeah, we're still at the house. So like, it'll be 20 years in this house
this may.
Sahra Tobe 2:25
So quickly, I kind of want to ask you a little bit about the neighborhood
that you grew up in. What was the neighborhood like and what do you
remember about it from your childhood?
Salma Ahmed 2:36
So it was always a predominantly white neighborhood still to this day it's
predominantly white. It's just it's just growing out to have like more
immigrants, more people of color in general. But I didn't go to school in
the area myself like I went to school in Minneapolis, I grew up in
Minneapolis Public Schools, but like my older siblings, I live right next
to a high school called Roosevelt High School, but don't come to my house.
I'm just kidding. But um, yeah, so my older siblings went there but like,
just like with like, a lot of other like city center high schools, like
becomes really dangerous, like fights break out and like parents, parents
don't know why that happens. So they just take their kids away from the
school. So I went to a high school still in my area, but like a little bit
further away called South High School. But yeah, like growing up in,
growing up in the same district, I always like went to school with like,
predominantly people of color just because of like geographically where
they were located. And it just made more sense for those demographics to
come to those schools.
Sahra Tobe 3:42
So can you speak a little bit about you said your family decided to come
to Minnesota because of the growing Somali community here. How did that
contribute to your childhood was it Do you remember like maybe being on a
lot of Somali people you when you were younger? Did that does not occur to
you as much as it mattered to your parents? What do you remember of that?
Salma Ahmed 4:05
Um, okay, well, what I remember was like of course my parents always cared
about like being around like, people that were similar to them just
because like who doesn't want to be around someone who really can
understand their experience where they don't have to explain why things
are the way they are too. But like my parents cared mostly about like
being around like other Muslims because like when it comes down to like it
no matter how much someone is similar to you like if they don't have the
same faith as you then like, you're not the same. But so like, for me like
as a kid, it didn't really matter to me I didn't like make many Muslim
friends in school however, like I always went to Dugsi, which is like for,
some people don't know what Dugsi is. It's like Sunday school, but on like
the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And essentially, you learned the Quran
like, mainly memorization like I know is like, I don't know if it's like
every Muslim community but in the Somali community it's very, very, very
focused on memorization. And yeah, so memorization and then also like some
Islamic studies but it's like mainly memorization like learning like
having homework, and then passing it to your teacher we call it like
basically teacher testing on your memorization like how you pronounce
things. There's this thing like in the ruling of the Quran like reading
it's this thing called Tajweed. So you kind of get tested on, Tajweed is
like grammar and so you kind of get tested on like how well you know your
grammar how well you memorize and things like that.
Sahra Tobe 5:35
Yeah, so in terms of going to Dugsi and things like that, did you, how did
you feel growing up balancing school five days a week and then also Dugsi
on the weekends?
Salma Ahmed 5:46
So I, I didn't know, I didn't balance it. So I didn't realize how much I
actually had on my plate until like, I was like in early High School,
maybe Late Middle School because it was just such a routine from such a
young age like you be essentially essentially start going to Dugsi like
when you start going to school like around five, six years old. You start
like learning your alphabet you start learning like small words like an
English terms this is but so I really didn't know how to balance it
because it was like all I ever knew. So I never knew like a free weekend
or like I never knew like a sleeping in morning because every day like I
was on the go. And it wasn't like, I favored one or the other. Because
like me, I love Dugsi, like growing up. I know, like a lot of kids that I
grew up with even my siblings. They didn't like love Dugsi, because like,
Oh, it's like very firm. It's not as easy as school where like American
school you have like a lot of leeway and like you have like recess and
lunch time and I mean, lunch is not a privilege, but you know, it becomes
one when you have recess with it. But, um, so yeah, like I loved it
because I was really good at memorization. And I was always, like,
appreciated by my teachers for like, being good at it. And while like, I
was good at school, like I it was just like you were among the other kids,
like everyone was good at school, like it's hard not to be good at third
grade multiplication because like the teacher, if you're not good, then
the teacher will make sure you catch up to be good, you know? And so Dugsi
like wasn't like that because there was like always, it wasn't age based
It was like more like level based. So once my mom realized like I was like
actually doing well in Dugsi, she put me in an accelerated program called
Tahfeed. Where like you're in Dugsi for like your whole day. This is like
also why I didn't know that I was like, handling it. Because I was so used
to something like my I was in Tahfeed like, from the age of nine to I
would say maybe like eight to 11 because um, like, it, Okay, so first it
was accelerated, but also like, it really like tested your knowledge which
I like I really like to be challenged when I know I'm good at something
which is kind of egotistical to say but I'll say it but um so yeah so
you're like challenged and also like you learn more than just memorization
of the Quran but like Islamic Studies and like you're also with people who
like also enjoy Dugsi because there's like Dugsi you can survive like not
liking it because like your parents send you there you can like pass your
Ashar, Ashar is what we call the homework but you can pass your Ashar and
then like go home and like move on like get to your next day. Like in
Tahfeed, you can't not want to be there. So that's why I liked it because
my peers were like just as interesting in learning the Quran and the Deen.
Deen is like our faith. Deen is like what we call it Islam. But um, so um,
yeah, like so that's why I really liked it because like, it was so it was
so fulfilling. To like, know that, like I love my faith and like I've
loved it from like a really young age I've loved learning the Quran and
I've loved like learning about the Deen because I just find it to be so
just and so right like, and I'm so happy like I was born into Islam. So
when like I had classmates and peers who enjoyed it just as much as me.
And I can't share that like relationship with kids at school because like
I said, Before, I wasn't friends with Muslim kids at school, or I can't
share with like my siblings, since they didn't like Dugsi, like me and my
older sister were in the program together. But we also have like a four
year age gap, which is what I liked about the program like you were tested
on your knowledge not your age. And school kind of limits you in that
aspect, where it's like, you can't just be smart, it's you're in this
grade. So like, this is the level you're at, and it was never like, hey,
like you're so smart. Like let's challenge you in this aspect. Elementary
School, nobody's trying to challenge you. Like Middle School, no one's
trying to challenge you. You really only have like room to challenge
yourself once you become an adult. So and like, you can't beg for a
challenge because once it gets too hard, then it becomes 'oh, but you
wanted this'. So that's what I really appreciated about Dugsi growing up,
it was like different in that aspect from school.
Sahra Tobe 10:09
You spoke a little bit about being really good at Dugsi to the point where
your mother had you moved up into like an accelerated course.
Salma Ahmed
Yeah.
10:16
Sahra Tobe 10:17
So that shows that, like, a certain level of like, involvement from your
parents on your parents end. Would you say they were as involved in like
your schoolwork and things like that?
Salma Ahmed 10:29
Yeah. So growing up, like, each of my parents kind of had like a focus.
Like my mom, she's, um, she was always invested in like my Dugsi learning,
making sure I learned the Quran like even till this day. Like now I
finished the Quran and I don't go to Dugsi anymore. But my mom she's
always like telling me like I should read because, like, I don't want to
like get punished for like learning something and not utilizing it, like
utilizing the resource that God gave me. And so, like, I appreciate my mom
in that aspect because she's like, involved in every aspect of my life,
like she cares about a lot about my schooling, but she herself wasn't
given that much of an education growing up, so she couldn't help me as
much. But like she always like was trying to like give me resources like
send me to the library to learn. Like, I'm always like, asking, like, for
tutors for me, like she was always like vouching for me and like, kind of
like, being my lawyer, like in my educational life, whether it was Dugsi
or school, but my dad, he himself, like, cared a lot about Dugsi, he's
like involved, he was always like, taking us and picking us up and
whatever. But he cares, like for sure a lot about school. Like, my
education, like my dad's always asking me what my major is, like, what my
GPA is, what I'm planning on doing with it, just like making sure like I'm
driven in school, but um, and like not to say my dad isn't as religious as
my mom or like, he doesn't care about the Deen as much as my mom is just
that like he himself works at a school in Minneapolis Public Schools, so
like He cares. For sure, like education is what he's geared towards, but
like he also wants me like be a good Muslim like practice and pray and
things like that. But like my mom for sure is active in like Dugsi more
than school, because that's like what she knows most.
Sahra Tobe 12:18
So do you think that your parents involvement differ between like you and
your, like your older siblings and do you think it connects to like how
long they've been in the States?
Salma Ahmed 12:28
Yes. 100%. Like, I really appreciate like my stance in my family because I
know it's so different from my older siblings. Like, out of the eight kids
my mom had, I'm the sixth so I have two younger sisters and then five
older siblings, and out of all of us, just me and my older sister finished
the Quran and that's because of like my mom's opportunity to be so
involved in our, like, Islamic education. So, like 100% I think it differs
because of like, they couldn't worry about putting food on the table,
while also worrying about if you pass your Ashar that week, which is not
to say that like, it was by choice or anything like that, but it was just
like is very difficult like trying to vouch for your livelihood with also
your, like children's education, you know, like things that are more like,
less of like a commodity, you know, like, you know, education is really
important, but that's definitely, you know, a privilege which, you know,
like, not everyone has. So it's, it's very, very difficult. Like, I know,
my parents are much more involved even in the way that I saw them raise my
older siblings, like from young kids, like I've been aware of how they
were raised. And like, I know, I'm raised in a more... I have more leeway,
let's say like then they ever had, like my parents were very firm with
them because like they're more scared of the world of what they didn't
know. And so I think that contributes a lot to like the education I've
been given. Both with Dugsi and with school. Yeah, for sure.
Sahra Tobe 14:06
And then earlier you spoke a little bit about how you didn't feel like you
were like you were busy with both Dugsi and school until you got a little
bit older once you did begin to get a little more busy, what kind of what
were your responsibilities kind of looking like, I know you said you have
two younger sisters and just going to school and Dugsi and how that
differed from maybe some of your classmates that didn't have to go to
school on weekends. As you said earlier, you didn't have a lot of Muslim
friends in school. So as you got older, you had a lot of a lot more
responsibilities and things to deal with how how kind of was your
experience with that?
Salma Ahmed 14:49
So yeah, my Like I said before, yeah, I do have two younger sisters. And
thankfully like I haven't had to be like, extremely responsible for them.
Because our age gap is so small, they're only two years younger than me.
They're twins. So, like, I've had to be like somewhat responsible for them
just like being mature and like being the next one in the house that like
sometimes I would have to like babysit them like, just things like that,
but it was never like, I was never like, held accountable for them. Like
my, some of my older siblings were held accountable for me and them. So I
definitely think that that contributed a lot to why I always felt like
nothing was like so overwhelming because my home responsibilities were
like, really like minimal in comparison to my siblings. So when I looked
at my classmates, who weren't Muslims responsibilities, I just thought
they were extra chillin. Like I was chillin because I didn't have, you
know, like these responsibilities that non immigrant kids don't have any
way. So like, I would just think about it in a way like I'm not even
overwhelmed because I don't have younger siblings to look after. I don't
have bills to pay. You know, like things like that, but I still had to,
like, clean and like make sure everything was okay. But even those
responsibilities were minimal because I had the comparison of so much and
so little. So like, what I had to go to Dugsi and school, like for my own
education for my own well being was like, if anything, I was thankful like
that I only had to worry about my homework for Dugsi and my homework for
school. Like it was it like it definitely gave me like, some perspective
and it made me like more appreciative as a person because because, like, I
know, like, things could be completely different because I've saw them be
completely different.
Sahra Tobe 16:37
And then, so as you move up in your education, like high school and things
like that, did you see your social circles kind of changing in any way?
Salma Ahmed 16:47
Yeah, for sure. Um, so like, I have like Muslim friends just from Dugsi
itself. But um, I, in high school, I actually had to move away from like
my non Muslim friends. Because like, they just like, it didn't go from
like oh 'hanging out' it was like they're kind of drinking and like, doing
activities that I as a Muslim like it was contradicting with like who I
was to the core, which was a Muslim. So they kind of like made the
decision for me really like to make Muslim friends so like, that's when I
made Muslim friends and thankfully, I went to like a well versed high
school, high school, so it wasn't like difficult to like make Muslim
friends and it wasn't the fact that I didn't know other Muslims or like, I
wasn't cool with them. It was just the fact that we just never ended up
being friends. And so Um, so yeah, like, I just kind of like started
making the connections I already had and like furthering them so yeah,
like that's, that's the time when I kind of like realize like my, if you
you are who your friends are. And if your friends like aren't-- I'm a firm
believer of that, of you are your friends are because if someone's
character like completely contradicts your own, then how can you like
stand by and like, let them be that way? Or like, you know, like, kind of
per- make that permissible, you know what I mean? And so, um, so yeah,
like, that's when, like, I realized, like, it's really good for me to have
Muslim friends because, like, that kind of limits the temptation of sin in
my like, specific case, like, I didn't want to ever be tempted to do
something. And like, while Muslims are also sinners, you know, like, at
least like, I wouldn't have felt peer pressured by the people I was
friends with, like, they were doing something and I would say, Oh, I don't
want to and like they wouldn't say why not because they know I'm a Muslim.
You know what I mean? Like, every time I felt like, every time my non
Muslim friends were doing something, I'd say I don't want to they'd say,
Well, why not? And I have to explain my whole faith again, and I'm like,
everyday explaining my faith like a scholar. I didn't have the time.
Sahra Tobe 18:53
Did you, um, So you talked about how that was kind of the driving force
for you to to kind of cultivate a group of Muslim friends. Did you have
any experiences with maybe your Muslim friends looking to engage in, in
the quote unquote, regular teenage activities?
Salma Ahmed 19:08
Yeah, for sure I um, Yeah. Like, you know, like, that's when I really
realized friends come and go. Because like, it kind of gets to a point
where it's like, yeah, okay, like you respect that I don't want to do it.
But like, then it's like, we don't even hang out anymore because you're
doing something I don't want to do. You don't want to do what I'm doing.
Because it's not that these regular activities or whatever, so kind of
just becomes like an ongoing loop of so like, you don't see each other
anymore. And then just naturally, people grow apart based on things like
that. So I'm like, thankfully, I'm like, I've always been like, kind of,
well, like grounded in my own headspace. Like, I've always had a good head
on my shoulders because of my older siblings. Like when you see other
people in your life that you care about, like making mistakes, or like go
through things that you'll probably go through just because it's like the
Circle of Life here, whatever anywhere. You kind of like expect that. So
then like when it comes and happens to you kind of like know how to handle
and you kind of you know how to get through it. So that's what like, why
never felt belittled by people telling me 'Oh, you're not like willing to
do this, you're not willing to do that' like, because I'm really not. And
I know you're gonna ask me if you almost feel like a psychic. So, um, so
yeah, like that's kind of what guided me like really was having older
siblings that went through the same life as me here, like I know it was
probably way more difficult for them because they they were literally
taken from the only life they knew like, I mean, they were all super young
when they left but it was all they were familiar with. And coming to like,
here, which gives you a complete culture shock and like with parents that
have never experienced anything like in the slightest of that way, like
they're just kind of focused on surviving. Like, it's really really hard
to guide so thankfully I was in that position. I just kind of watched it
from hindsight.
Sahra Tobe 21:06
Do you, are you still in close contact with your siblings and how's your
family life like now?
Salma Ahmed 21:12
Um, yeah, so all my siblings are old people. So um, my oldest brother is
35. And yeah, he's married he lives in Minnesota. All my siblings except
for one live in Minnesota. So my oldest brother Yeah, he lives in
Minnesota. He, I'm, were, in like pretty close contact, like not on a day
to day thing. But like, we have pretty good relationship. I ask him for
like life advice. He, he loves school. He's like my dad. He's always
talking about, like, what I want to do, how he's like making connections.
So I have like, a little bit of an easier experience, which like, he's
always been, like, helpful, like with things like that. He's always like,
kind of like couple steps ahead. And so he's always willing to help me
with anything I need. And he's like, always trying to like move mountains
for me. So it's super nice. And then I have another brother, aw this makes
me sad, and then I have another brother who's also married. He's not as
helpful- I'm just kidding. But yeah, I definitely see like the difference
in maturity between my siblings just watching them. But yeah, my other
brother, he's also married, he lives in Minnesota. He works. We have a
pretty good relationship. Like it's not like anything like where like, we
talk on a day to day basis either. But, um, he has like, for sure, like
flaws that, you know, like I kind of have a hard time getting over
sometimes just like in general, like, you know, people aren't, you, you
don't get to sculpt people in your life, how they are like your family's
your family. You don't get to choose them for a reason. But um and then I
have another sister, she's the one who doesn't live here. She lives in New
York. We have an amazing relationship. She's actually like, one of the
closest people I have in my family. She's like, a great person and she
like, honestly, she's like my second mom, like she for sure guided me more
than anybody else like, my brothers like yeah, like they, like I kind of
looked at their experiences but they didn't guide me in any way like, you
know like they're kind of boys will be boys and boys take a longer time to
grow up but um yeah like she's like for sure yeah she's like for sure like
contribute a lot to the kind of person I am today. And like yeah we talked
very frequently especially considering the fact that the only contact we
have is like a phone but she like visits a lot and like I visited like the
place she lives so it's cool. And then I have another brother who's like
he's like still growing up. Like Like I said before boys take way longer
to grow up and girls and what I've seen, especially in immigrant families,
and so like, I haven't like taken anything from him to be completely
honest. Like he's in my like, headspace. He's kind of like, the same age
as me. If not younger than me, even though we have like a seven year age
gap. And then I have a sister like, I'm the closest with her out of all my
siblings. She's four years older than me. She's the one I mentioned before
like that we went to Tahfeed together. But um, she, yeah, like, we're like
very close. Sometimes, like, my other sister makes like jokes like I'm the
older sister in the relationship just because like, in any aspect of my
life, I'm like a realist more than anything, like more than an optimist
more than, like, someone who like uses their imagination alot, whatever. I
like, I see things for what they are and like I don't try to like let
emotions cloud my judgment. And so she's she's like more of an optimist.
So that's why it's funny that like, she's asking me for advice and stuff
even though she's like, ahead of me in life. And then I have those two
twin sisters I was talking about earlier and like, when people say the
youngest and families like are definitely the same and no matter how old
they are, like, I definitely see that especially my own family. Because
like, you know, they're like tested the least, they have like no one else
to look after which, thankfully I didn't have anybody to look after but
they were so young to not see my other siblings grow up that they're kind
of like, still like looking for guidance, which like we all try to give
them as much as we can. But yeah, like all my siblings, like we're in
pretty good contact but there's for sure more I talk to most. Like
especially like the three I live with. I talked to them more frequently
because I see them the most frequently. And my sister in New York, I see
her or I talked to her the most because if not, then we don't have any
contact and you know, boys will be boys.
Sahra Tobe 25:36
So, you spoke a lot about your relationship with your siblings. How is
your relationship with your, with your parents? And do you feel like
there's a tight relationship there as well?
Salma Ahmed 25:47
Yeah, I I for my mom and I, we definitely have a tight knit relationship.
I'd say especially like considering now that I'm older, I can definitely
admire everything she's done for me and I can appreciate it. Which like, I
always have known, like, the place my mom has my life like she's always
been held to high esteem in my head. But the only thing now is the fact
that like, she can, like talk to me about like, the problems she's having
and things like that where I'm like more of an adult. Like, she doesn't
put weight on me or anything but like, it's, you know, like, she makes it
more clear she doesn't like shelter me from things like she used to, which
I appreciate because like, I hate feeling like, babied, especially in
situations where like, I can fully comprehend like I'm a full functioning
adult, you know, but um, like parents don't see that all the time. I mean,
like, even like in immigrant families sometimes they'll treat you like an
adult sometimes they treat you like a child, which it doesn't really make
sense because pick one. Like sometimes my mom will tell me I'm 25,
sometimes she'll tell me I'm 12 but um, even though I'm only 19. But, but
um so ya no, my mom and me, we definitely have a tight knit relationship
like considering everything, she's like, always like been, like I said
before, like vouching for me and like always been like a great resource to
me like in any way she possibly can, she always tries to like move
mountains for me. My dad and me we have like a pretty good relationship
too, like now that I'm like growing up more like I definitely see like the
flaws he has but like he's like still a great person like the older people
are the more they don't change. So like I try not to hold him to to like
much of an expectation either like I don't want like to be the reason that
he's unhappy because I expect him to change but he's been like this for
the fifty-four years he's had kids. So like yeah, we're also pretty
close, like he knows about like, the things that are happening in my life
because I try to like keep him involved. Because I never want him to feel
like I'm like looking at him as just like another parent like second to my
mom when like it ends up being that way anyway because my mom so involved
like, voluntarily and like sometimes I have to put him in the loop. But
um, yeah, like, my dad for sure like tries to be involved in our lives and
like he tries to like, help with what he can like financially and things
like that. So I appreciate that a lot.
Sahra Tobe 28:14
Do you remember your family having any, like special traditions or kind of
a little get together things that they did? Like maybe on holidays or
things like that growing up?
Salma Ahmed 28:24
Yeah. So my family we're like, very, like religious family, like my mom
like, we never like really celebrated birthdays or anything like that,
like because not like, through my parents and my older siblings would
celebrate birthdays with us, because like, they saw other people
celebrated birthdays, so they would try to like, make our transitions like
smooth, you know, like, between, like, the different worlds we come from
or whatever. But um, ya no, every year since I was like a kid. My dad's
sister lives in Minnesota as well. So she would invite us all over for
Thanksgiving. But it wasn't like we were celebrating Thanksgiving, we all
just happen to have the day off. And she would make like Somali food, not
like Turkey. So like, that's the tradition we've always had just because
all her kids were off of work and school. And so were we. And my dad was
off of work, too, because he works at a school. So he's on the same
schedule as us. So it was always really nice. So I would always look
forward to that, because like, if I didn't get to see them often, like
because people's lives got busy, then I would know that we'd see each
other on Thanksgiving
Sahra Tobe 29:29
Do you remember what your parents did for living when you're growing up?
And like, do you remember maybe like,
Salma Ahmed 29:34
what they did for what?
Sahra Tobe 29:36
For a living like,
Salma Ahmed 29:36
oh, for a living? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my mom, she always stayed at home
because she like, for like 18 years. She was raising kids. So she, oh,
yeah, she stayed home like she didn't like I said she didn't really get
much of an education like she didn't get an education at all in America
besides like, some ELL classes she took for a couple of years when I was
younger and then she was like, always worried about like us not speaking
our native tongue. So we would always speak Somali in the house. And that
was like the main reason she stayed at home because she didn't want us to
lose our language. Because she was afraid that if she, if she worked, or
if she like, went to school and stuff, thankfully, like my dad, like,
worked a stable enough job where we didn't have to, like depend on the two
incomes. But um, yeah, she was, she was always worried about she was
always worried about us and losing our native tongue. And if we talked
only amongst each other, we would talk in English, because that's what we
spoke at school. And so like, it's funny because even though I grew up in
America, like was born and raised here. When I went to school I only spoke
Somali because I wasn't allowed to speak English at home. And that was
like up to until like, the age of like, 15 we weren't allowed to speak
English. And so, my dad though he always worked at an elementary school of
like, as far as like, I can remember, he worked another job before I was
born, but I can't remember what it was. But I remember he, he's always
been like the liaison for like, Somali students, but he also like he's
really really good at math. And that's always been like his main strength
so he also helps kids struggling with math. So he's like kinda like a math
teacher for elementary kids. So it's like nice that's why I was like
always accelerated. And I'd be like math 90, reading 40. I didn't know
English but I knew math. But um, yeah, so yeah, those were the main things
that they did for a living. It's kind of funny now to say my mom's a stay
at home mom cause, like, she stays at home for herself now.
Sahra Tobe 31:42
So going off of you speaking about like wanting to keep your language and
how that was a big part of your upbringing. I know like your, your mother,
that was a point of like, a point of importance for her there. Did you
ever feel like growing up like you were juggling your identity as a Somali
Amerian, did you ever feel at times that maybe one was slipping?
Salma Ahmed 32:01
Yeah, I for sure hated speaking Somali. Yeah, no, I like I was ashamed
because it sounds like sounds so ugly. And when my mom like we would be in
stores and me and my siblings talking English my mom would say 'no like
you see people speaking Spanish, you see, you see like all these people
speak in their native tongues and you guys are having them understand your
conversations like, do you see how stupid you look?' And she was not lying
because like people were really all up in our business when we spoke
another language so now like I'm for sure thankful because I know like,
I'm very fluent in Somali now where like, a lot of my peers aren't, even
my younger sisters. Like they still kind of struggle with Somali and they
kind of like pronounce words wrong, just like grammar errors but um, yeah,
like I'm very, very thankful now because, like it's a strength to be
bilingual and not a weakness, but I always found it to be a weakness. But
um, that's like, part of the reason I struggled was because like Like I
said before, like kids growing up would tell you, like, oh, you're not
even from here obviously. And I'd be like, why do we speak another
language, if we're American? Like it did not click for me, I'm like, What?
Is this just me? But um like, also like part of my tradition like, I,
like, traditions, I should say, like, I would hide from my kids at school
and stuff just because I didn't want to be different, so bad, because
like, they made it be something so negative, but like Now, obviously, like
with life experience, wisdom, and all that jazz, you realize that like
being the carbon carbon copy doesn't like get you anywhere, like, even
when you're applying for jobs, they want something different. So and they
want someone who speaks another language, someone who can like reach
multiple communities. Whereas like, if you only speak English, and you all
look the same, then what's the, what makes you yourself what makes you an
individual?
Sahra Tobe 33:49
So that, so you spoke a little bit about your, your, your identities as a
Somali and then as an American, how did your identity as Somali and Muslim
translate in your life? How did they maybe coincide or contradict?
Salma Ahmed 34:04
Yeah, I feel like for sure they always like aligned for me. Just because
like, I've never met a Somali that wasn't Muslim. I've always been like,
able to at least like if I didn't have like this I would at least have
like Somali people, you know what I mean? So I, I always like grew up with
even like at Dugsi, like I didn't go to Dugsi or our local Masjid, they're
all Somali, like, things like that. I always feel like those two
identities kind of went hand in hand for me like, sometimes when like, my,
like, culture would contradict my like, oh, like, Somali dance, Somali
music like that would contradict my religion. I'd be like, kind of
confused, like, when we were younger, my mom would play like Somali music.
And I would like learn in Dugsi that music was haram. And I'd be like, so
Somali music isn't haram. Because like, I'm like, there's no way my moms
playing music and this was like, I'm thinking like parents have no flaws
at this age. So I'm like, I know my mom would have played music if it was
not haram. Yeah. So I said, hmm, I put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and I
realized moms can be sinners too. But now it's funny because I brought
that up to my mom the other day and she's like 'I was learning too', it's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 35:22
So, it sounds like your parents definitely played a large part in your
upbringing. Did you know your grandparents, or great grandparents?
Salma Ahmed 35:30
No, actually, I've never met any of my grandparents. My dad's parents, so
his mom died when he was four years old, and then his dad died when he was
18. And then so my mom didn't even meet my dad's parents, but my mom's mom
died in 2013, like September 2013. And then my mom's dad died in 2016
actually, when both my parents were gone in England for my brother's
wedding, so like, we never really got to grieve my grandpa's death,
because like, my mom was gone. So yes, like, I never got to meet them. So
like now like when I like see people like having like, relationships with
like their grandparents or like, it's like, either like when they have
relationships with their grandparents I'm like, so happy for them because
I'm like, wow, like, that's such an amazing thing to be able to experience
like, I know, like some people like they consider their grandparents like
more of like a contribution to their life like than their parents. So it's
like super interesting to see. But like also like, the same thing I'm
like, when people don't appreciate their grandparents, I get upset because
I'm like, please appreciate them. Like they're only here for a certain
amount of time, just like the rest of us, but they're also here for such a
short amount of time, so it's like, yeah, I have like I have those
emotions about that.
Sahra Tobe 36:48
So did you, I know we spoke a little earlier about your father's sister
that would invite you guys over during like Thanksgiving time. Do ou guys
have any like other cousins or other extended families, you guys, like
regularly got together with and how did that, how did that kind of play
out in your life like growing up?
Salma Ahmed 37:11
Yeah, so um, my father's sister she has a lot of kids, most of our kids
are like, a lot older than me. Her youngest son is actually like 31 he's
as old as my sister that lives in New York and then her oldest son is like
45 I want to say like they have their age gaps aren't like insane, but
like in comparison to us, like they're a lot older than us. So um, so
yeah, they it was actually my nieces and nephews, my cousin's kids like in
my culture, consider my nieces and nephews because like your cousins are
like your siblings in comparison instead of like, great cousin, whatever
second cousin and all that but um, so yeah, we would all get together
because all of her kids except for her oldest live inMinnesota. So it was
more like I was getting together with like my aunts and their kids instead
of like my cousins and their kids because, you know, like, my cousins are
so much older than me, I saw them as like parent figures. And so it'd be
super nice to see all of them because all their kids are like, around my
age and around the twins age. So they would come over too because they're
all off of school. But most of my like my dad's family, live like around
the world. Like, he has some family in Toronto, like my dad has like
mostly brothers, except for his one, he only has one sister and then the
rest are brothers. So he has brothers in Toronto, and then Saudi Arabia
and like Abu Dhabi and United Arab Emirates, and then also a brother in
Birmingham. So like, we don't get to see them frequently but like they
visited us and like I'm like connected with all my like cousins on like
social media and like sometimes we talk but it's just like, like knowing
like they exist is like super nice like having cousins around your age,
especially girl cousins, super nice and so. But my mom's side of the
family she um, she comes from, she doesn't come from a big family. My
grandpa actually like he was married twice. So his second wife has like
younger kids than my mom. So there's like a lot of them like, they all
live in Somalia. And one of my mom's older sister's daughter actually
lives in Sweden. So my mom is like, trying to go to Sweden now. It's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 39:34
So, circling back to your experience in school, I know you stated earlier
that you preferred math over reading etc. What else can you recall about
like how, how school was for you? Especially like having the guidance of
your older siblings and kind having already that community from Dugsi
maybe that translated over and what also are you up to now?
Salma Ahmed 40:00
Yeah, so school is like, I always enjoyed it. So but my favorite was
middle school because like, I was always like super like soft spoken like
super like insecure about my identity. But like middle schools when I
really realized like I was happy like with who I was like, where I came
from things like that, which thankfully it happens sooner rather than
later. I know for a lot of people are not as thankful, I mean, they're not
as comfortable. Yeah, like around that age. Like that's what I feel like
insecurities kind of grow. You know what I mean? So I was like, Luck that
mine were kind of chilling out at that age. But so yeah, so I school was
always I don't want to say a breeze. But it was always like something. It
was like nonchalant, I was nonchalant about it. Like, I did it. I wasn't
like completely invested. Like also I was good at it. So I didn't hate it.
You know, like, like I said before, I'm kind of egotistical, I only like
what I'm good at, but um yeah like that's when, that's like, why I liked
it. Like, in high school, I was in the National Honor Society. So and
like, none of my family members were in that, so I was really like happy,
like, I love like when my family like see something like and they're happy
for me because it's like something that they're unfamiliar with. Like I
know like a lot of times like when I'm good at something my other siblings
good at it like my parents like they're like oh, okay, like that's a
regular thing like it's the norm for us, you know? So I liked high school
a lot because I was kind of like, more well sculpted in like who I was.
And like, I was good at school, I was taking PSEO classes. And I just felt
like so like in control of my life. Like for the first time I was like the
driver. And I knew like where I was going, I wasn't using GPS. And yeah,
like now I'm in college and I'm kind of using GPS again. So, like, right
now I study computer science. And like, I don't know, like, that decision
was kind of like erratic, I don't know, like, I don't completely enjoy it,
I first started because of like, the problem solving aspects and like, you
know, like, it's really like exhilarating when you're good at or like when
you solve a problem that you see on your own, like, you don't need help.
Like, it's, it's just like, it's a really good feeling. But I'm now like
I'm realizing like, there's not much like, there's not much to it, like
you code and then you move on, like, I and I don't like what my whole life
to be just like, coding, you know. And like, I feel like in any aspect of
any career, like or any career that I intend to go into. You don't like,
you don't want to like just code. You know what I mean? It's just, it's
not like, it doesn't sit right with me thinking like I'm working towards.
I'm just coding working towards a job where i'll just code. Like that
doesn't sound fulfilling to me at all, which I'm not necessarily like
going to school to like become fulfilled by a job, but it would be nice to
not hate myself. So, yes, and right now I'm like looking into other
majors, possibly Management Information Systems because it kind of like
uses, like the coding that I already know with also, like, management
aspects and like analyzation and like critical thinking where like, I'll
actually be able to use the frontal lobe. I would not use it if I was just
coding.
Sahra Tobe 43:25
So um, going a little bit, going a little bit more into your experience in
college so far. You are a sophomore, correct?
Salma Ahmed
Yes.
43:31
Sahra Tobe 43:32
So do you have you maybe felt like some of the peer pressure from maybe
High School has been maybe like presenting itself in college as well maybe
just like in other forums? Or like, how do you feel your social life is
now?
Salma Ahmed 43:49
I feel like my social life now is like, fairly well, like, I haven't had
like, issues with like friendships and things like since I was in high
school, so like, I'm thankful one I have like, been able to, like, make
good friends in school, but like, also have like good friends outside of
school. So it's like a nice balance of the two and like, yeah like,
socially like, I feel fine. However, there's like always like the, the
'teenage activities', like people aren't teenagers anymore, but um the
activities of like of students or whatever that like linger. And so
actually, I find that in college, they applaud you for not partaking in
their activities, and like they almost like give you like that, 'Oh,
you're so innocent, don't do this kind of act', which is almost worse than
the peer pressure I experienced in high school because like, they think
you don't do stuff because you're naive instead of like, wise, you know, I
mean, so like it really like it's just kind of like an ongoing loop of
what? But, but um, yes, like, I like I definitely come across people like
doing things that I personally don't do or won't do or will never do. So.
So it's like, it's definitely interesting to see like, the different
reactions you get, though, because like, people have been like offering
out the same things for the past five, six years. It's just now that they
offer it in different tones and different reactions when you say no or so
it's funny. It's funny. Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 45:18
Do you do feel like yourself becoming stronger and more grounded in your
identities the more that you experience kind of these invitations or is it
the other way?
Salma Ahmed 45:29
Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of do kind of like, I'm still the same
because I find that like people when like they, when they applaud you for
not doing something they're just insecure. Like, they themselves don't
know why they're doing what they're doing, or it's like they themselves
fed into peer pressure. So they're kind of just like, taken aback when you
like, think for yourself because they didn't do that. So it's definitely
interesting to see that like, I'm this way because I wanna be this way,
but you're that way because your friend said so or like, it doesn't really
make sense to me because I know like some people like it takes longer for
them to digest things than others or like some people weren't offered
these things like they went to Islamic school or whatever, you know, like,
whatever walk of life you're from. However, like, if you're gonna think
for yourself, you'll start thinking for yourself now because like, this is
like, your formative adult years. So I don't really like I don't really
know. And I don't really feel like as bad as I do for people now when they
like kind of get themselves in situations as they did in high school.
Because now you've like, now you've like seen things, you know what I
mean? Like now you like this is what you chosen. So like, yeah, like I
feel more strong willed than I did before because of that type of stuff.
Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 46:50
So now moving forward, where, where do you see yourself? In the next- I
know this question sucks, I hate myself for asking you but I'm going ask
you anyway
Salma Ahmed
Okay
47:01
Sahra Tobe 47:01
and this is in terms of like your school, in terms of maybe who you are as
a person, in terms of maybe your relationships with people, different
people in your life things like that. But where do you see yourself
ideally? Maybe in the next two, three years, three years?
Salma Ahmed 47:18
Oh, okay so only two I thought you were gonna say five or 10 I don't know.
Um, yeah, next two, three years. Yeah, hopefully like see myself graduated
with a degree hopefully I see myself out of school not doing homework. But
yeah, like with a stable job hopefully like if it's two years from now
then I won't have graduated yet. Like hopefully with at least a job offer.
I hope like I'm really strong in my Iman, like more than I am now. I hope
like I'm like more certain of myself like I feel like I'm like fairly
confident now. Like there's always room for improvement in any aspect of a
person. So yeah, like I definitely hope to be like more stable I hope to
be driving my own car again like I was in high school. But um yeah, no I
and I hope like I'm learning something that I care about. And like I'm I'm
confident in what I'm learning. So yeah.
Sahra Tobe 48:13
Do you have anything else you want to add, any closing remarks?
Salma Ahmed 48:19
no no closing remarks but I will tell you like, my like situation of like,
my like immigrant story, my Muslim immigrant story, Muslim in Minnesota
story is like, I know like very different in comparison to other people
like the generation now growing up like my younger sisters like years of
schooling is like completely different than mine. Even if they are in
like, similar shoes as me like with older siblings, and like couple of
younger siblings, like I definitely say like this is it's a very specific
situational story. So I think it's interesting what this is doing what you
guys are doing.
Sahra Tobe 48:59
Thank you so much for joining me
Salma Ahmed 49:01
You're welcome. This was fun. Thanks for having me. It was an honor,
pleasure.
Sahra Tobe 49:08
Thanks so much for listening, bye-bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Faruk 0:01
This Faruk Ahmed oral history student at Augsburg University. I'm here at Augsburg University
on December 10 2019. Interviewing.
Burhan 0:13
Burhan Muhumed.
Faruk 0:17
Yeah, I guess we'll just go from there. You want to give us your full name and birthdate.
Introduce yourself.
Bu... Show more
Faruk 0:01
This Faruk Ahmed oral history student at Augsburg University. I'm here at Augsburg University
on December 10 2019. Interviewing.
Burhan 0:13
Burhan Muhumed.
Faruk 0:17
Yeah, I guess we'll just go from there. You want to give us your full name and birthdate.
Introduce yourself.
Burhan 0:22
ive got to give the date out?
Faruk 0:24
Just to date, not the year. you dont have to do all that, Yeah.
Burhan 0:27
My name is Burhan. I was born in 1990.
Faruk 0:31
Yeah. Where?
Burhan 0:33
I was born in Somalia somewhere in Somalia to be honest with you. I don't know exactly where
Wallahi.
Faruk 0:38
right. Is it just because you just still remember you just never even really inquired or it's not?
Burhan 0:46
I've been told that I was born in in what they call the Somali galbeyd. Probably jigjigga or
something like that.
Faruk 0:53
Yeah. Cool. is that where your entire family is from?
Burhan 0:58
A good chunk yeah, but we lived in Mogadishu though, In a place called African village.
Faruk 1:04
Yeah. What was was your family like, in? In Africa? Where do you remember I should say?
Burhan 1:12
I was born right before the Civil War started. I was born in 90 and then I think it started in like
January of 1991. I think. My mom, my mom fled with us to to refugee camp in Kenya called
adaab. We lived there for about four years. So it was it was most of the time was me, my my
mom and my older sister. For most part, for the most part. My dad never saw him. I saw one
picture of him. He has like he has his own kids. Yeah that we lived in refugee camp for about
four or five years till we got a sponsorship from or visa from from my uncle, who passed on
about 10 years ago now. who lived in Detroit, Michigan. So it's like a lottery. They didn't do what
they call a lottery in. In a lot of these in a lot of these countries back especially in Africa, I think
and I think maybe in other countries too outside of Africa, but it was like a lottery that would you
got lucky, honestly. And then yeah, we moved to the states in 96, march of 96.
Faruk 2:43
And the first place you got home was Detroit?
Burhan 2:45
Detroit yeah, a place called Hamtramck, Michigan. We lived there for about 14 months. My
uncle, my mom tried to find a job she couldn't. Cuz my mom she was really loyal to To the
Niqab. so she tried to she tried to function or or at least find a job like that with with the with the
full with the full on clothing and they were they wasnt going for that. So we live we literally lived
on. We lived on food stamps for 14 months ago. My mom my mom couldn't stand it. So we
moved to Minneapolis and in the summer of 97.
Faruk 3:30
Cedar Riverside.
Yeah, what was the... so at that point when you first moved to Michigan, how old were you? you
remember?
Burhan 3:39
I was I came to the states and literally so we came here we came literally the end of March and
my birthday was in April. I was 5 turning 6. So basically six years old.
Faruk 3:51
Yeah. So you're there from like six to seven. What do you was the like, I mean, you're still pretty
young, pretty impressionable. You just live Life Did you get to feel that this whole new world that
im in? you know what I mean?
Burhan 4:05
Wallahi at the time man you don't really like you don't come to a realization but it's different
don't like you come thereand I didn't expect to see I didnt expect to see black people for one.
because obviously like you know some of the things that that we were kind of programmed to
believe was you know, America's is uh, it's all white you know and so me my sister went to a
school where was mostly black people and some some some people from Asia, the Middle East
and Asia. Mostly black people, though, you know, so But yeah, like you You know, later on you
realize it, but wallahi you a kid though, especially being that young, you know, not not too many
things really. you adapt quick as a Child. So it didn't really stand out as much. But later on here,
when you when you start to recollect you like, Damn, you know this that, you know, you start to
notice some things
Faruk 5:15
were there. Did you guys see any other families like sponsored families in the in the area? Or,
you know, or other families that just migrated?
Burhan 5:27
No, no. So we were we were
Faruk 5:32
because michigan is not really a place where people usually especially somali people.
Yeah, well, I know. We did not I don't remember it at all. I mean, the only families really
interacted with that were Somalis was my was my family, your family? Yeah, that was it.
Do you remember Like a Muslim community, I guess, in that area, at least.
Burhan 5:58
at the time right?
Faruk 6:00
Maybe not so much somali people but other people but like you said there's..
Burhan 6:03
yes it was Muslims in general. Yes, man, Bangladesh, Bengali. Yeah, Yemen, Iraqi African
American Muslims. Oh, yeah. And then and then there was actually there was one family who
was somali that that eventually moved to Minnesota with us to that were there who are called
my older brothers man was two guys.
Ismail and Adam smile was like, he was like a young, like a young alim man, he he led the
prayers. He's like 15-16 at the time, and he's taking me prayers, Fajr you know. so but that was
a that was that was literally the only other Somali family besides my own. And the rest were just
Muslims from all over the world pretty much because it was like it was a literally an immigrant
hub. When we were at at least.
Faruk 7:02
just not Somali hub but an immigrant one?
what is there anything you could piece together just from your your year or so experience there?
Just you mean me obviously you're like six or seven years old but.
Burhan 7:14
right. Anything notable? yeah and so so I became really close with a with a with a young young
black Muslim that were that were our neighbors. They will take us out man to like when we first
got there like maybe the first couple of months they would take us out, you know, to cook out
cookouts, I would spend a lot of time in their house play video games with their son. And you
know go through the masjid with a lot of the young young kids around my age man and being
man be spoiled man with money every Friday man we will get money. Pray salah and man they
taking us to the toy store band little toy guns and cap guns and all that type of stuff will last so it
was it was pretty It was pretty dope man but then again what what what does net, What does
stand out as a poverty to man it was it was it was dirt poor wallahi. you know there was all
vacant houses around you everybody around you was poor for the most part we are TV we are
a TV donated that was black and white. I think that's where my where my eyesight honestly
became poor because I will literally sit right this close to the TV you know watching it but yeah,
wallahi that stands out man just being a child and going to the school with other kids my age
man where I didn't really feel like at the time even even looking back I don't remember ever
feeling like, like you know you were I was an outcast or or that I was special or I was different
from other kids man because like I said majority of the kids that were there were black. So, you
know, it was, it was it was really, you know, it was really enjoyable man. From what I can
remember.
Faruk 9:10
Yeah. So the community it seems like as a, as a young child as a child, you know, really, you
know embraced you. Was it that way for you for your whole family as
Burhan 9:20
well? I think so, man, that was a community around us man. I don't know what it was because
we shared a faith or whatever, man, but like I said, Man from the African American Muslim
family that would take us out, you know, for cookouts, you know, that would invite us into their
homes. And from you know, the arab family, that donated a TV to us. the whole family they
looked out for us. You know, that that was really, you know, like I said, it wasn't I really enjoyed
it, honestly.
Faruk 9:50
Yeah. And so.. a year and a few months later, on the way to Minneapolis, yeah?
yup straight to cedar.
Do you guys have family here? Or what drew you here?
Yeah, we did have family. We had distant family. Oh, yeah. We had we had several family
members that were here.
Burhan 10:13
Yeah, and the economy to man. thats what everybody talks about, you know, and I think my
mom was was was sure of finding a job and she did like, eight months later, nine months later,
she found a janitorial job, which she ended up being at the janitorial spot for life. For about 18
years, you know what I mean? So, yeah, well, I think what drew drew was here was obviously
because of the community. You know, and because of the the job opportunities for my mom.
That was that was the two big factors man that really played it played a significant role in us be
moving to Minnesota.
Faruk 10:54
Yeah, you said you had family here, but do you, Do you ever find out about how you know
words spread like hey, this is the spot like jobs here. You know somali people we always find a
way.
Burhan 11:05
right. yeah well i think i think what ended up happening was I do think the economy so I'm
gonna do the man. like if I could pinpoint mad to be a jobs man and the fact that we were able to
build the infrastructure the masjids, the businesses that I think that's what really made people
feel at home and allow people to you know to fill you know to to literally migrate over here you
know,
Faruk 11:39
right. so what was what was, what was cedar Riverside like for seven or eight year old Burhan?
Burhan 11:51
to be honest a true for the most part man, being that young man, I mostly stayed home man. I
had a, I had a, I had a Uncle Man that was very like he was a disciplinarian you know what I
mean he's very hands on he will he ruled with an iron fist type of shit.
Faruk 12:10
yeah.
Burhan 12:11
And so man like aside from school and like you know from the neighborhood community center
that I attended a lot I'm mostly I'm mostly kept to myself honestly you know, obviously a we will
go outside and do a read regular kids do man but for the most part, man, I stayed at home and
read really. So I remember I used to be big on by the book fair school and shit. And so I would
buy a whole bunch of books. The little scholastic fair whatever, they called it back then, man,
you know, and I will just like collect books man and just that just go through them. and so
wallahi yeah, and at the time like, again, like in 97-98. Man, the community wasn't as big. But
we still had a presence though you could feel it. I knew you knew where you were coming into
You know because they were there was there was there was there were families that were here
she's 93-94 right so and at the time we lived with for about a year we lived with with our cousins
we had on top of them pretty much man we should we share we share it like it was like maybe
nine of us in like a two bedroom in a two bedroom apartment. So yeah, man it was uh it wasn't it
wasn't really that much of a change I don't think because like I said that the community was still
there, you know? And I felt like you know, we were really embraced in obvious because now its
literally your own its Somalis and Muslims, you know, so I made it a lot easier to really adjust.
Faruk 13:44
You. You mentioned you read a lot. Was that something you developed on your own in
admiration for reading Was that something that was like instilled in you by your uncle, your
parent, your mom, your older sister. Or is it just a hobby you just picked up?
Burhan 14:03
Yeah I think was a hobby I picked up man like I said because my uncle was just you know like,
he ruled with an iron fist man. you know hed turn the tv off, we had to turn the TV off by like six
o'clock and so from like six to eight or nine o'clock before we before we go to bed I'm reading
you know i mean like I said we are barely went outside and also I went outside but I barely went
outside also. And so I yeah, I was just like, you know, I just had to offer that man I just I just
ended up you know, really love love stories and and writing in general you know, and so I ended
up just really embracing it. And that was that was my form of entertainment. there was no TV.
So you just read to really keep keep your imagination going. you know what i mean.
Faruk 14:54
Do you remember what might have been a favorite book?
Burhan 15:00
The man who it was mostly those books the Hardy Boys I'm mostly were like fictional like great
obviously great school books man Hardy Boys are read a lot of those African American authors
and that will different books man I forget his name I was big on him to man. yeah obviously
goosebumps and and and like sports magazines man I love I love the I love like Sports
Illustrated magazines and and that type of stuff man but yeah when I was mostly fictional like
fictional franchises especially like specific authors man i cant i cant think about right now but
yeah the one that really says I was a Hardy Boys my laughing I read all of them growing up
yeah yeah there was a series. So.
Faruk 16:01
let me know if you if you can, if you remember later on the name of the African author but uh
yeah sports even though even though you didnt used to get out but not really get out there you
said sports are you into Do you have a favorite Minnesota team or what was your favorite sport?
Yeah I immediately embraced the Vikings and not actually when I had in the beginning was the
Tennessee Titans actually as far back as I can remember 1999 2001 when I..
thats kind of random for it right?
Burhan 16:38
Exactly, man No, no, no, no you know what caught my mind, man. There's there's a there's a
there was a play man because like I said, it was it was it was it was a natural. It was a natural
thing that I embraced man just the love of sports and just being emotionally attached man, you
know, because the games will be on, as far as as far back as I can remember, you know, and
so that they There's some core again that they dumped the "the Music City miracle" or
something like that in Tennessee where it was a kickoff and it was a lateral. And then they
ended up going to the Super Bowl and losing at the one yard line. And so that was my original
like, that was that was the team that was originally like emotionally attached to you know
steaming there Eddie George Jeevan curse man a lot remember a lot of these dudes names
that come back to you know, so Keith Bullock I think, but well is that what that was like that
sports in general and I just love the you know, it's like watching Kobe and them and Reggie
Miller, A.I obviously. And obviously it the hometown team and Marbury and kg when they you
know when they first got here as a young dude, you know, and so.
Faruk 17:52
was (Malik) Sealy on the team at the time?
Burhan 17:54
Yeah, he was in the early 2000s. Yeah, he was. Yeah. So yeah. Well, I was that that that was
something that I've developed early when I became emotional at eight, nine years old. I think for
sure eight, nine years old, I became emotionally attached to sports. I was like watching every
Sunday I was in front of the TV watching all the games, especially the Vikings, obviously. But
yeah, I just I just thought that that was my two hobbies, man reading and watching sports all
day. Pretty much.
Faruk 18:24
and they both stuck with you.
Burhan 18:25
Yeah, to this day. Yep. Yep. I mean, the reading man I have to get back on and really hard but
uh, but yeah, I'm still I'm still a big sports fanatic, man. I I enjoy the analytics. I enjoy the
information. You know, just just really absorbing all that information, you know, and so yeah,
wallahi, I was something that I really enjoyed.
Faruk 18:45
I'm gonna mention it later in the in the transcript but you want to tell people, the sweater and the
hat youre wearing?
Burhan 18:51
Vikings. Yeah, it was by accident too wallahi, and I and I rarely show out like this too. Honestly.
This is I think in all of my years wallahi I rarely ever bought a jersey you know anything like team
apparel wise I barely do that
Faruk 19:08
is it because you're ashamed the Vikings? they haven't always been good
Burhan 19:11
right not on its just, wallahi.
Faruk 19:13
it was just not you yeah?
Burhan 19:14
no no it's never been me.
Faruk 19:16
yeah, How do you feel about the Vikings now this season?
Burhan 19:19
we good man i think you know you still waiting for the other shoe to fall off wallahi but uh but
yeah, I think we're good I think I'm hoping we make it to the playoffs at least. I hope.
Faruk 19:36
so this this young burhan, teenage burhan in Minneapolis right. the consciousness is starting to
unravel. You've started to peep things. What do you, What are you noticing around you? Right?
that six year old Burhan probably would have would not understand When he first went to
Michigan you know what is the differences that you're able to put together between Minneapolis
and the city in Michigan that you were in and maybe early life and the camps in kenya.
Burhan 20:16
a yeah yeah you're talking about what when I'm a 14- 15 year old? around that age?thats
where you really start to find your place man honestly man that's what I want. That's when I
that's when I was starting to peek as far as like becoming fully observant of my environment
what was happening and and a lot of it has to do with obviously me being because 80% of my
life is in cedar pretty much right. And so my life you know, turning 14-15 years old, you know,
going to high school. You know, my my foundation is solid You know, my, my social circle is
basically the community I grew up in and people that that I've known up, you know, to, you
know, to that point about eight years ago moved our neighborhood around the same time we all
got to know each other around the same time. But I would say my, that's when I really started to
open my mind. And I became like, really attracted to thinking, you know, outside of what was
around us, you know, we would have and I was involved in, especially community stuff, man,
not not so much after school stuff. I mean, I joined I joined the football team. When I was a
freshman I played I played freshman year, sophomore year and junior football
Faruk 20:18
what school is this?
Burhan 21:46
Roosevelt. High school It was Roosevelt high school.
A yeah, well, again, you know, and the cultural makeup of that school was Somalis, Native
Americans. You know, the Hispanic community, the black American community and so yeah,
well I was segregated in a sense man but uh, but it was very cultural. And we had riots every
other year or every year we had riots we were where we have these clash of, of cultures man
honestly, you know, it's more more ignorance but but we would have those and luckily I was
never involved in any some how I was never threw a punch in high school man, especially in
high school grounds. I avoided it somehow, you know. I never was in that situation. Thank God.
but yeah, wallahi, you start to realize how that's when that's when the division and you start to
become very aware of like, Yo, this is who this person is and that's who that person is when a
from, like, we're all different, right? you know what I mean and so and that and that may be just
kicked my really into into in our high gear. And I was like, you know we were having these
brotherhood circles and meetings at the center man with it was more conspiracy laced man
honestly but but it was helpful though because it allows you to think on a much deeper level not
Amina so you know, and I really again I gravitated towards them and I became naturally
naturally embrace that type of thinking, you know, I mean, and that made me that allowed me to
be more mature in the way that I conducted myself, you know, so and that that allowed me not
to never fall into you know, the subcultures that that that come out of harsh and poor
environments like the gangs and the clicks. I've avoided that, I avoided that because I was in my
head, you know what I mean? So I wasn't I wasn't attached to to the external world. I was I was,
I was in my own head. And now allow me to You know, to be a loner, to be reserved, you know,
I mean, I was my I was solo dolo honestly, like literally and figuratively, you know, so, and that
allowed me to escape a lot of traps man, you know, that, that a lot of us fall into when it comes
to the politics of, you know, the part in a poor environment, which is like, you know, it's all about
really embracing the harshness, the toughness, you know, how gritty the shit is and, and it's like,
you survive, you try to sort out survive the next person, you know what I mean? So, well, a lot of
stuff just came to the forefront from the ages of 14-18. You know, when I started to really like
just really understand the politics of it.
Faruk 24:43
What did at the time, what did you What did you make of the riots that would happen to cultures
in high school, you know, are the are the different demographics clashing?
Burhan 24:55
I mean wallahi, like I said, You know,
Faruk 24:58
I know you said ignorance based
Burhan 24:59
Exactly. And it was it was it was, it was a it was, you know, it will start out with like two people
going at it and then all of a sudden becomes black Americans versus Somalis, you know, I
mean, and even here we had a riot and in the neighborhood when I was around 14-15, where,
where where are you noticing Latino or Hispanic? You know, guys, and we all got into it. You
know, and so, and I think, again, that because because people are narrow minded in how we
think about, you know, the world, and you're just stuck in a box of life, your ethnicity, your
nationality, the people that look like you and so you naturally click up with those people. And so
anybody outside of that, even if it's a one on one, you assume it's as that person's whole group
pursuit, you know what I mean? And so everybody just clashes that we may Rather than rather
than leaving it to the you know to to for it to be the singular issue which has been to me you it's
not a between your culture, my culture and people are like I said it was easy to do that because
people you know naturally clicked up that way man you know so but it was ignorance though
man because like I said when you when you're narrow minded like that and your whole world is
defined by your ethnicity and and where you come from and who you share your likeness with
the year you go you don't think anybody messing with you outside of that is a threat so you you
know, you naturally jump you naturally, you know group up and fight other groups and plasma
school didn't do a good job of of reconciling that neither man and they ended up you know, it
was more they created more of an environment for it. You know what I mean? The lunches was
segregated in the day they still are, you know, the lunches, the classrooms You know, they
didn't do enough to really, for people to really embrace each other, you know, to me and it was it
was some minor things man is like, you know, if you are more culturally sensitive, you know and
you you allow relationships to form you allow people to really get to know each other you know,
then they would avoid a lot of those problems man because they because they're so set on
forcing you to learn something for eight hours a day you know for seven classes where you're
just like a robot man trying to attain information type of shit. They disregard the relationship
because again, you taught my young people who are impressionable, co existing within this
small space and you don't have no real infrastructure to you know, for you to cultivate the
relationship so people don't go out and manage that you know, people will people in honest and
it starts out with some shit like niggas and making wudu in the sink. Niggas is taking a shower
(in the sink) and Boom, you know what I mean? And that's how niggas got into it. You know, so
that's why we came from wallahi. Some of us saw it for what it was, you know, and luckily
wallahi. Like I said, Man, it was never it never it never really got real ugly. I mean, I got ugly
couple of times, but it never got ugly, ugly. But they're still having the same problems. I mean,
school schools are not equipped, you know.
Faruk 28:35
they really I agree, you know, it's one thing you know, like you said, the students are people that
are, you know, all believe, you know, they carry the ethnocentric mentality, you know, and
they're not taught how to you know, coexist like I said, you know, the schools are not there. You
know, they they preach diversity, but They're not they're helping students diversify themselves,
you know, and, and their student body. So yeah, that is the still you know, even you know, it's a
good segue into academia. Right? Higher Learning universities, right? All have black kids, Asian
kids, femalewomen, right? All on their brochures. But what is it like once you get into the school,
still predominantly
Burhan 29:31
college or?
Faruk 29:32
Yeah college.
Burhan 29:32
Yeah, yeah man. I mean I went to I went to the U of M and so it's all white institution. And
obviously, man, you know, it favors their way of learning, you know, it favors. You know, the
literature and the foundation is as white supremacist and so you know, you can never you can
never move away from that man. And the ufm especially the West Bank is station In, in a
community where is the most diverse? You know, I mean, in the whole state, there's no
programs, there's no there's no pipelines to, for the community to take advantage and to really
benefit from, from from his tuition. And this is a land grant institution is a public institution. I
mean, so they supposed to be given back to the community. And so you realize after Batman
and and I and I made sure to really be cognizant of that when I was going when I when I said for
all those four years, and I couldn't really enjoy myself being in that school because I knew I
knew what I was, you know, I knew what I was to them. I was a token, you know, I mean, I
wasn't I wasn't a valuable member of that, you know, institution or human being man. I was just
a number that they acota you know what I mean? You realize that cooking alive because like I
said, the nerdy style, the culture none of that really favors you, man. It's fucking hard. It's a
struggle. You know, to me, like, after I've developed some fucking depression and anxiety when
I was going there, man, I was literally I was literally twitching. You know, I mean, when I was
going there and shit wallahi up at one point.
Faruk 31:16
where do you think if you had to recall, it's kind of be kind of tough if you had to recall what do
you think that that would stem from? Like, was there like a particular experience? Or was it just
the continuous experience of being in that environment?
Burhan 31:31
Yeah, well, both you know, I mean, it's, it's the individual, you know, episodes there there your
experience of how teachers look at to how teachers engage how professors, the professors
engage you and connect with connect with you. While you see the distance now you see how
they really don't really respect you and how they really don't embrace your, your, your your, your
your capabilities and your abilities as a student, you know, I mean, like is, it was what I was, it
was a Some of that goes back to high school I remember being I remember staying after school
one day man cuz I struggled in math right? And I used to stay at the school with this lady to ask
the class actually just the way she would look at me man like even to this day like she was not
normal, you know? I mean, like, and I'm over here taking my time as a 1415 year old 16 year old
kid, like you I'm trying to improve the machine or me like, can you you know, I'm not getting this
and just realize that it just looks man and just the the subtle remarks man that you know that
you knew what they meant, you know, I mean, like, just the way they would talk to you about
your future and, and and the way that you know, what you are good at and all that shit you know
what I mean. And, and sometimes, man, it was like, it just Wallahi, It was difficult to really
function like that. And now you're in You know you in high institution that's really white you know
that the professors don't really don't give a fuck you know what I mean? Because most of aint
tenured and so it's like you know they they they really don't go out of their way to really you
know fuck with you like that and so and wallahi you realize youre a token man like it's it's.
because I wasn't I was in I was a fucking post secondary when I was when I was at when I was
a junior and I was when I was a senior in high school and so that's how I was able to get my my
writing and my reading scores are high, right. But at the same time there are people that have
better GPAs than me, you know better academically that couldn't get into the UofM so I know It
was a numbers thing for them, you know? But yeah, well, I like just the overall culture of, of, you
know, this fake You know, this fake movement towards, progressivism or whatever. But in
reality, like, you know, there were these, there was visible, you know, lines that were drawn in
the sand that made us like, yo, you can't cross this line at all. So, but wallahi dit was different in
my experience, like I said, Man, you feel if you really, you really feel at odds with the school, you
know, what the whole system you know, as a whole but like I said, probably has, it has to do
with the fact Like I said, I was conscious, you know, I mean, I was I was, I was I was I was I was
conscious to, to a degree man where I knew where I was at. I knew this was not this was not
you know, in any way conducive to my growth and to my learning, you know what I mean? But I
made it you know, I mean, I slept through this shit honestly, man, because like I said, it was
difficult man, I suffered through it right
Faruk 35:00
Once you escaped the nightmare of the University of Minnesota How did life change for you?
What was the transition period like after after college for you?
Burhan 35:11
Man, that's when I really started to. I mean, I was always I was always working within the
community, man, that's when I really got into the organizing work. And so a year, a year after I
graduated, I went straight to, you know, and well, I went to, I went to grad school man to keep
our rent down to be honest with you wallahi, like that's honestly one of the reasons Man. and
then I ended up just really embracing psychology and I really wanted to pursue that and so but
within all of that, man, I'm, you know, I'm dealing with people in the neighborhood being killed.
You know, trying to organize with with the community as a whole to like, you know, to really
raise the consciousness of the youth and doing all this other stuff, man, the same time. Like I
said, Our I was exposed to a lot of fuckery man as far as, you know, being exposed to the police
and my, and having to, you know, because I'm I'm organizing and so I'm in these spaces in and
in a community center where like we're taking kids to police academy, dealing with police,
athletic leagues, and every event we're dealing with the police and the FBI. And so that really
raised my consciousness man, because I always thought like, yo, like, Why Why is this
community being force fed this propaganda with the police, you know what I mean. And this
constant interaction with the police, you know, they would have this weird pogroms where there
was a police officer, you know what I mean? And so, in this hotel, I'm going I'm going to grad
school, like, getting my shit together. And and again, like, you know, because you study in the
human mind and, and you start to really develop your own theory of like, Yo, this is some
fucking psychological manipulation of going on in the community you know what I mean, but
yeah, well I it was it was, it was me just trying to grow through that that whole process honestly,
you know what I mean and, and and really find my my purpose and in contribution to the
community you know and looking and looking you know more outside, you know, rather than
like selfishly centering it around myself
Faruk 37:26
I remember because I also grew up here in Cedar Riverside, I remember the police athletic
leagues and and those days where they would have picnics in the parking lot of what was it..
it's now known as a building from the F building for sure, you know, where they'd have
firefighters and Ms and cops you know, come barbecue and you know, there was like dunking
tanks and pull out a whole lot of fun shit, you know for a kid that will enamor you you know
actually remember being on a team in the in the PAL the police academy league Basketball
League. You know, where we're coach by an officer. Do you remember like, was that going on
when you were?
Burhan 38:18
Yeah, yeah. Thank God. I was never part of power.
Faruk 38:20
Yeah,
Burhan 38:21
never.
Faruk 38:21
Yeah.
Burhan 38:23
But yeah, wallahi, I, like you know, as as as I was in, you know, when I was graduated from
high school and I was in college, that's when they really started to really emerge man,
community, you know, and so yeah, that was a tough part. Well, I honestly, but yeah, I mean,
even to this day, man. I mean, you know, you have the emergence of Somali police officers.
You know, as a way to really infiltrate the community.
But yeah all that really what it does is man it just manipulates your idea of public safety is you
want to meet and it really just, you know, disrupts people's ability. Really think to think, you
know, in a way where they trust their community members and they trust their own people nurse
like you think Obama threat. So there's over reliance on police, you know, which is which is a
tragedy honestly, bro but yeah well I was it was an emergence of a lot of fuckery ass programs
that were that centered the police that were operated by the police and I was one I was one of
you know again because I was a youth worker working for organization they will always put me
in a situation I remember I remember I remember interviewing the Metro Police one day with
with a bunch of other kids and how they told us point blank Yeah, you know, we take our we get
trained by the DEA by the by department of homeland security and by Israeli forces they get
they get they get shipped out to to Palestine, the West Bank and they get trained, you know, I
mean, like, I'm like, what, what the fuck are you trading them for? Are you are you at war or
something? Oh, so like yeah, like that. type of interactions really made me sick. You know, I
mean, and that made that allowed me to, to really politically educate myself, you know, and I
see the shift for what it was man.
Faruk 40:10
Yeah, how? What uh. well, as long as you've been organizing what are some things that are
some positives that you've taken away from your work in your community? And I guess what are
some of them something that could truly surprised you? You know that just that you cannot
believe in your work?
Burhan 40:38
wallahi..
one thing is like the ability for people to really organize themselves. That was a huge positive,
like, you know, people can really organize themselves and they can get shit done. And the fact
that your voice is powerful man, I realized that to where your voice is powerful as hell. you
know, I mean, like, especially if you're if you're really, you know, if you got that integrity, and you
know, your your, your, your honesty, you're you're somebody who's known to be a very truthful
person. You know, your word carry carries a lot and wallahi The other thing I mean,
Faruk 41:21
there was other one, just something, you know, in your work that has
Burhan 41:25
surprised me?
Faruk 41:26
Yeah, just some alarming stuff that you might have found, you know, in your years of
organizing.
Burhan 41:30
Yeah, well, and, and, and at the same time, how easy people can be duped, how easily people
can be manipulated and just misled. You know, I mean, you know, the fact that you if you don't
have certain information, you know, and how people can be, and how the community can be
used by,
Faruk 41:49
by?
Burhan 41:50
by the different institutions and, and by, you know, by powerful organizations to really push their
own agenda, you know, what I mean? And the fact that I'm Obviously, when you learn we learn
the power dynamics. You realize how much of a disadvantage people are, are really are at, you
know what I mean? But yeah, well I think that that that that really you know i at the time right in
the beginning when I start to realize that it surprised me but not obviously not a look at it but
obviously weight of salt man but but I realized why why it's happening and I mean
Faruk 42:24
some of the some, some institutions that try to impose themselves and you know infiltrate the
community Do you have any stories about or any particular anything? I don't know, you know
you kind of talk about you know, where you have seen the community rally around themselves
and completely fight off, you know, whatever nefarious attempt that maybe a government
institution or a Yeah, anything.
Burhan 42:58
for sure man, You know, the Boys and Girls Club partnered with with the federal government,
pretty much man through a program where where they we're targeting Muslim, you know, in this
case black Muslims or Somalis through a program where they were, you know, saying that they
were, you know, prevented terrorism and they wanted to set it set up base within the
community. You know, we were able to really rally in and talk to the school that they wanted to
be, you know, that they wanted to really be based in and be like, Hey look, man, this is you
know, this is racism and this shit is harmful and I mean, and we were able to really win that fight
honestly. And, and, you know, and and, and hollywood, hollywood wanted to really leave us foot
Leave Leave us footprints in the community by you know, shooting this pilot where again, it was
it was, it was based on terrorism, and we were able to push that away, you know, I mean, and
That that, you know, those struggles, you know, and our ability to really organize and fight that
office was really powerful you know, I mean and I consider that you know, an opportunity for
people to really think and to really, you know, organize their thoughts around the you know, the
common cause, you know, the grace of God and by the will of Allah will I will be able to in a
ward them off and and win really man you know.
Faruk 44:32
is it one of those situations where one W(in) you know you you push one out and five more to
try to you know what i mean. try to get into the into the mix You know, does the fight ever end?
Burhan 44:49
no.
Faruk 44:50
I guess thats my question
Burhan 44:51
No, I never does, bro.
Faruk 44:52
Yeah.
Burhan 44:53
that's that's the fucked up think about the whole thing and never does not I mean, and it's a
terrifying thing about about this struggle which is like you know, no matter how hard you fight
you know it's like you know it's like it's like a flurry of punches coming at you man but you know
the meanwhile swings and so and again man people people's existence is based on you know
they can get to the next day and so it's all about survival and so you know the what we what
were some of us who are organizers try to present to people as a your last time to think long
long term not I mean I let's let's think more you know more universal you know what I mean?
And really embrace a community community oriented outlook on things but but people people
like I said people people are really on the are on the last you know couple of coins man and so if
somebody is coming and like really, you know, fucking what do you what do you call it You
know, sort of pushing this idea of like, yo, you know, you gone get rich, you gone get all these
resources and all these opportunities, jobs, you know, and gift wrapping, you know, the these
things when reality man, they're, they're fucking there you know, it's a setup and then I mean for
us to really give up our power you know and and give give give up our political power and then
of the day you know as community members so well I that's the hard part because people
people are you know some people are willing to give all that up if they can make it to the next
day and that's the thing that's really hard to live with.
Faruk 46:49
Have any institutions and in their flurry of punches, attempted to coerce you with a that kind of
opportunity.
Burhan 47:00
I mean Never directly. Because I feel like man, I have established myself as somebody who was
really about honor you know what I mean. and so yeah, they know never to test me with none of
that material material bullshit, you know, so for Alhamdulillah , I've been able to avoid that man
but but there's always different ways man people will try to silence you and you know and try to
really play off the shitter day that they did to the community by trying to be friendly, which they
may have known since he was a kid. Or they may know your family and they will try to get you
like that. Right.
Faruk 47:33
Whatever, whatever it is. To get to you.
Yeah, it doesn't always have to be no no funds. So as, as someone as a community organizer,
right as somebody we've kind of touched on mental health a little bit and as someone who's you
know, almost like, maybe do you have your masters in psychology?
Burhan 47:54
Yep, I do.
Faruk 47:55
congratulations.
As someone who has a master's in psychology, what What are some things that you've noticed?
You know, how do you deal with the toll you know, of the fight the exhaustion that comes from
continuous rounds of fighting off? You know, nefarious organizations and institutions? For you
yourself?
Burhan 48:17
Yeah,
like basically you talking about like a care plan type of thing?
Faruk 48:21
Yeah. Like self care,
Burhan 48:23
right? Well I
know and I haven't been doing a good job of that man. You know what I mean? And that's the
thing I'm gonna have to really focus because I'm about I'm about to hit my 30s man this
upcoming summer God Willing another meeting and so that's gonna be a stretch for me you
know and that's where you're going that's when the wear and tear we really started showing
your body
Faruk 48:40
so you haven't felt it yet? Not yet.
But like I said, Man, I you know, I probably have some undiagnosed mental health you know,
last, you know, legs or whatever. That means that I need to really pay attention to probably bola
like I said, Man, I haven't been able to I've been able to function, if only So, at least for now on
the surface I've been able to function. Yeah.
What? What's the future looking like, for butthead? And for the Somali Muslim community here
in Minneapolis?
I guess speak to yourself first. And
Burhan 49:23
I'm hoping I'm hoping I do what I become individually or selfishly, I hope I become like financially
secure, where I'm able to do a lot more. You know, and obviously, will I continue to grow, you
know, with my, with the ideas that I have, you know, because I'm a very, you know, natural I'm a
very community oriented person and so, you know, a lot providing a lot more opportunities to, to
the community. You know, and eventually will I go really going back home and and raising
raising the political consciousness of our communities back home really, man, that's my ultimate
goal home back home I know Somalia and so, and I and obviously, you know, you know,
continent wise and globally ally really what all what all you know, people who've been who felt
the boot of imperialism you know what I mean? So you know, like I said, selfishly, I really like to,
to grow in my own field of psychology, you know, develop theories that are that are reflect our
that are a reflection of our community, you know what I mean? And, and, and hopefully open the
field up to more of us, owning owning it and really creating our own pathways you know, and
embed in our communities. Community wise man, like I said a lot for us to really raise our
consciousness man and, and build and build a community where you know, we're really truly
organized and we're not being bought off and we're not being misled by America's political
system. And so last year allows for us to really build up we are really a really tight knit
community. Truly.
Faruk 51:25
That was gonna be my last question by somebody just kind of sparked a thought of mine. So
home, home you just mentioned it's still for you, Somalia? Yeah? as Somebody who spent more
than three fourths of their life in the States, right? More than half of their life in Minneapolis.
What is your connection still to Somalia, or to you know, or the somalia you call home?
I mean, family wise, a family family is still a connection there. Yeah. But yeah, well I feel like you
know, because we've been such a target of Western Western imperialism and that you know,
again because I'm naturally you know, politically conscious like that's what draws me to it and so
I feel like in our been in this part of the world for so long and I've and I've gained so much hope
of like a more I wouldn't go back and really just you know, be old via the oberlo be able to open
people's minds and make them realize your life is this not about you know, this is not a it's not a
narrow minded struggle, man. This is this is a global struggle, you know what I mean? And
we're just the one piece on the on the, on the chessboard be knocked off every fucking day. You
know what I mean? And so,
Burhan 52:54
you know, that is my connection.
Faruk 52:57
Alright, man, I'll let you get out of here. Thank you for your time.
Burhan 53:00
man i didnt think you gone take an hour nigga damn
Faruk 53:04
Hey haha, did it feel like an hour?
Burhan 53:06
No, no, it was cool. It's cool.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about i... Show more
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about it?
Sabrin Gadow 0:24
Yeah for example were you born in America?
Ash Farah 0:30
Oh no, I'm so I was born in Gadow, which is between the Borderlands of Somalia, Kenya and
Ethiopia. I was born in a village there with my mom. And we came to America actually through
--- I forget what exact humanitarian organization it was, but it was through them and we got to
re-located over to the United States.
Sabrin Gadow 0:52
That’s nice!
Okay, so what was your family like?
Ash Farah 1:00
Well, I'm the oldest I'm like, I'm the oldest son.
I also I come from a relatively small family for a Somali family. My siblings are Rahma, Ayub,
and Mohammed and I'm the oldest of them. I also have a stepbrother and stepsister, but they
were much older than I was so.
Sabrin Gadow 1:20
So what was your neighborhood growing up like?
Ash Farah 1:28
It was very Somalia. I grew up around a lot of somali people and my just you know, generally
very low income, we grew up on section eight and you know, like, there was no Eid gifts. The
Eid gifts were that you got to eat that day. You know that type of teas. Like it's pretty, pretty
simple.
Sabrin Gadow 1:40
Yeah. How's it like growing up in a Somali neighborhood, was it Muslim majority?
Ash Farah 1:47
Yeah, it was definitely Muslim majority, like Somalis are like 99.9% Sunni Muslim so yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 1:55
Yeah did you like that? Was it the sense of community? Did it make you feel safer? Was it just
was a nice for your mom?
Ash Farah 2:00
Yeah, it was very nice for my mom because she was a single mom. My dad left two years after
we like relocated. So it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other Somali women. And
it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other members of the community and from our tribe
and stuff like that, because they helped with like, childcare, getting a job, all the things that
make it really hard to relocate to a foreign country with children. You know, like, it's very hard.
So she didn't feel alone. She obviously grew up very Muslim and found solace in the masjid
and, you know, we went Dugsi [Islamic school] every like, I think, every Wednesday, Saturday,
Sunday, and on Friday and Sunday. Yeah, if my mom could afford it, she would send us even
more. But she's like, you know, and that kind of thing. She just really really loved Islam. And it
was very clear because everybody around me loved Islam.
Unknown Speaker 3:00
Yeah, you said growing up in Islam. How did growing up in Minnesota a sort of shape you? Do
feel like you've been on different path and if you grew up in this area that was so highly
concentrated in Somalis as well as Muslims?
Ash Farah 3:12
It's because of the like, certain. Like, I've met a lot of like, Somali queers across the world, UK,
London. I'm just friends, even Toronto, like just all these places that all these people, you know,
ran off to, and I think Minneapolis causes a certain socio political background that allows for it to
be very different than if I grew up in let's say, Denmark and was Muslim, there's less of a social
pressure to be more like ultra conservative in your interpretation of Islam. Like there are people
who have no problems with like, people not wearing Hijabs. You know like not wearing
traditional garments and stuff like that, at all. Umm just because of the you know, of the mixing
of culture there? Also because there's different Muslims, and it isn't just like the majority of
Muslim population there isn't Somali only. It's like there's Arabs, there’s people from Palestine. It
was, more you know, black Muslims, there’s you know converts and stuff like that. There was
like more diversity so that causes a little more lax opinions when it comes to like groupthink in
the community and stuff like that. So there's less, I don’t want to say less prejudice because
prejudice exists consistently throughout whatever society you go to but less rigidity I’d say.
Sabrin Gadow 4:38
You said the term ran off to what do you mean by that? Either term run off as in, like, places
they went off to?
Ash Farah 4:44
Oh yeah … Yeah! Like, um, you know, where people have ran off to. Like, you know,
displacement from the Civil War, so it makes sense for most people to have fled to the nearest
place that they could flee too. For example there’s Somali Queers that are living in Yemen or
Kenya, or Denmark and UK or Toronto and here. All very different in their experiences because
of the different environments that they are growing up in.
Sabrin Gadow 5:07
So you use a term Groupthink when referring to this close knit community of relations to find
that sense of this my community and stuff like that. How do you feel group think affects people
who aren't like, how do I phrase this in a nice way, people who aren’t like the typical idea of
what Somali Muslim should be?
Ash Farah 5:30
Mmmh, To put it lightly, I've learned a lot of things in my life, which is, if you go against the
majority opinion on faith based issues, people respond very emotionally very, like personally
and personally attacked because this is something that is very, very, close to their heart and
they think this is right. Particularly it was harmful for me growing up because of being a child
and stuff like that. So people see you as saveable, as fixable, and they don't want you to go
through what they see it as the worst punishment on earth for all of eternity. So they want to
help the this kid out by any means necessary and sometimes those means are violent.
Sometimes they're ostracizing. Sometimes they're, you know, like conversion therapy. So by
any means necessary to help another like member of your community out. And I am at the age
where now I know that it comes from this place -- it comes from like a kind of a good hearted
place despite the impact that had on me growing up. And it makes sense for people especially
here in Minneapolis, especially in the somali population, and the older Somali population here in
Minneapolis to cling on to their faith even more so than they would back home because they
literally had to give up so much of themselves and Minneapolis is vastly different than where
they're growing up. I like had this conversation with my mom and she was explaining how much
she missed she missed sugar canes and how much she missed like the masjid that she would
go to and like just the how vastly different growing up in Somalia versus living here in this
tundra! with no sun, like, just off. Even the food's off! All this, so it's very understandable, they
would cling on to their faith even harder, like even more strict because that’s one of the only
things they got to keep. Not their houses and no they're --- like my mom witnessed, you know
soldiers break down Hawo Tako [Statue] not even their culture when it came down to it. You
know, so they have this one very, very, tangible thing that they can hold on to and to see their
kids either rejecting from that path or from their particular interpretations very, very, very harmful
to them. And it makes sense. It does. But it doesn't make it right, but yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 7:50
Yeah. Such a nice way to think of it.
Ash Farah 8:00
For example, my mom had this first incident like the moment we got here, like of course, we
landed in New York. We're on this escalator and she was holding me and a man decided to
yank her hijab. And this is, like yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 8:10
So sorry!
Ash Farah 8:12
And it was, you know, it was post 9/11. My mom was wearing a huge Jilbab, which is, you know,
like, you know, she's 6’1’. So she sticks out of the crowd and stuff. Like that this guy got a rise
out of it. He was drinking too much at the airport. And I fell, tumbled on all these steps on this
escalator and my mom, a) has never seen an escalator. And that was her first like, initiation into
American culture, which is very violent and very against your faith. So what people do when
there's an opposition and an oppression, is they cling on to it even more. And over time, I got to
see my very, very liberal mother become more and more of a literalist, when it came to the
Koran, and when it came to faith and stuff like that, because of just the concentration of the way
American bigotry is against Muslims in particular. Where else you might not see that as much.
Like you do see some islamophobia but it does not come off as directly violent as American
Islamophobia is.
Sabrin Gadow 9:14
American Islamophobia is truly something different. You mentioned something about growing up
with a liberal mother and her changing into more of a literalist, because of the community she
was apart of and the community that she held ties to. How did that feel growing up and going
into somali spaces and having different ideals and values based on you?
Ash Farah 9:33
Oh, it was very, very difficult.
I was a young child, ahhh, weird child. I did not speak till the age of eight. I just had all these like
external issues going on in my life that my mom had to deal with having a kid that had needs
that needed to be met like I needed a speech therapist and it was a mysterious came --- due to
an illness I had as a kid. Just had no answers and had to navigate the system by herself in this
country by herself. So, I watched her become this very laissez faire, like, mother of like, you can
play with Barbies, you can play with GI Joes. And you can, like watch. We used to watch john,
john wayne westerns, because she used to love those together and stuff like that and watch her
become very, very anti-westernization and more like faith based and like literalist Islam, stuff like
that. Like I want my children to be hafiz. I want them to go to Dugsi all the time because the
counter effect would be like they'd end up like the kids in my neighborhood, the black kids she
saw in the neighborhood who were dealing with socio economic issues that like lead them down
certain paths. So she really honned that in.
Ash Farah 10:56
Of course, it was very unlucky for me because I'm a trans man. So I was born female and
assigned female at birth. And I was trying to communicate that with no words to my mom. So it
wasn't very --- AND to my peers who obviously picked it up really quickly. It's kind of hard to like,
not pick up on that, especially since the more literalist interpretations of Islam have stricter like
gender roles and gender guidelines. So it quickly became very, very hard for me to focus on
Fiqh and like learning about Islam, and going to Dugsi and stuff like that when there was literally
a partition, deciding if I was like, what roles I would have to play and do all that. And it was very,
very, very difficult because I felt like there was something wrong with me. That my entire
community was trying to help me because I was flawed and broken and a burden onto my mom.
Ash Farah 12:00
My mom would get a lot of help and support because people would see, you know, her like,
weird kid and stuff like that. So it was a mutual. Like I saw the benefit of that, but also meant
that through egging on of various community members, my mom, so shovel me into Quran
Saar, which is like people reading Quran over, you know, children usually have, you know,
illnesses or like something wrong with them or just or being seen as possessed. So I dealt with
that. And it got increasingly worse, because my mom started to notice she had more of a
community around her. And that’s what she really needed as a single mom who literally just
could not afford much, and it led me down to having a really, really harsh ‘bout with Islam.
Sabrin Gadow 12:58
You talked a little bit about you being a transman, do identify with any other communities?
Ash Farah 13:02
I---- this is a par, or a question that I get a lot. I really do identify as being Somali. Identify with
the muslim identity. I identify as trans identify, I identify as LGBT, and I don't see how, I know a
lot of people see that as like in, incomprehensibly, untetherable like you cannot tether those
identities together, they cannot exist in a human being. I even get it from somali people like you
are either Muslim or your gay, or you can't be trans and Muslim. You know, like Somalis don't
have gay people or something like that. That's white people shit, and all that kind of stuff. But I
really truly hold, hold all those things. So.
Sabrin Gadow 13:57
So beautiful. You hear a lot about Somali hate being gay. But we definitely do hear something
about Somalis queers, who don’t have faith and Somali Queers who do have faith.
Who talk about feeling like they couldn't be somali and clear and also have Muslim as well. Do
you feel like you fit into that? In the sense that -- I’ll rephrase the question, how does it feel to be
ostracized in multiple communities and do you feel that you had to build a community from that?
As in a sense where it's like being a Somali Queer openly, like a visibly queer person, trans
person, and also living with that as well. But how do you feel because your ostracized in those
that small intersections.
Ash Farah 14:42
Right? Like I felt since I couldn't find family and I couldn't find ummah basically, I couldn't find
community in Islam, because of you know, various interpretations of the faith deciding that I
could not --- that my existence was non congruent with their form of Islam.
I decided to not listen to any of that.
Sabrin Gadow 15:05
How does it feel to be consistently told that your existence is untrue? Nah, like that its like an
idea that's a made up and came from forced westernization. And how did you find community
within that?
Ash Farah 15:17
I forced it. I figured out a young age since couldn’t find ummah within Islam. And I couldn't find
solidarity in my blackness. Because I, you know, as a kid, I like really was trying to find a space
where I wasn't seen as “other” entirely, um, I would try out like black identity and stuff like that,
but it's very hard because African Americans and African people have this long going, you
know, issue between the two. And it's just due to coming from different experiences of
Pan-African identity. I did a civil rights research tour, in order to like, better known about, you
know, the struggle of black African Americans and stuff like and found that I was within that, but
also separate and had to unpack that. I also had to unpack that in LGBT spaces that I went to
Minneapolis, were very white centric, very had various ideas of what it meant to be Muslim. And
I encountered a lot of Islamophobia. And a lot of racism too. So I felt great. So I'm too, I'm too
black, and too African and too Muslim, to be an LGBT spaces consistently, I'm to LGBT to be in
Islamic spaces, I'm too, you know, like, African and queer to be in black spaces. So I decided,
fuck it, I'm going to find and forge, and make community and make a chosen family and, like
make spaces for us to be, you know, for people like me to seek them out. Even though it's very
much, people say it's very much in your best interest to not claim all three of those identities
because even one of them. Islamophobia alone kills, homophobia alone kills, transphobia alone
kills, and anti blackness kills. But to claim all three and to be looking for other people like you, is
to literally, literally, paint a target on your head and say that's better. Maybe if I find two other
people like me, it'll be worth being consistently shot at.
Ash Farah 17:29
And I decided that at a very young age.
Sabrin Gadow. 17:36
Is this where your activism stems from?
Ash Farah 17:40
Ummm yeah actually. Yeah, like one thing of the things that I really liked about Islam, was it
that. I'm actually thankful for it because I love the story and Nabi [prophet] Mohammed.
Sabrin Gadow 17:51
Oh, could you explain the story?
Ash Farah 17:52
I'm as if we're not both. Okay. I don't know.
All right.
Ash Farah 18:00
He was the last prophet according to the Quran, and he grew up in Mecca during the time of
like, political strife. He was from the Quraish tribe even though he was an orphan, and he
literally been he started. He like was anti-idolatry. So this worship of idols and the trade of idols,
which was a lot of commerce to Mecca at the time, on against the various political and social
issues, like slavery, and the mistreatment of slaves and mistreatment of women and
mistreatment of orphans like himself and was very much a social, a social, like activist if you
really think about it, because I'm only an activist will be exiled out of a country for political
reasons. You know, asylum status alone. Literally went to Medina because his message was
just not sitting well with the people in power, because the message was of peace and it was of
like very very, very stark social change. And people were just not having it. And I found his story
to be really inspiring because even though people call him a madman, crazy like, called him a
liar, said he was possessed, all the things from like, for literally you know, for nothing more than
being honest and what he was known for being honest. And these are all traits that I, you know,
growing up really, really like held onto. And, you know, he spoke for a lot of broken people, and
even in war times had all these rules and I just really inspired to be like him.
Sabrin Gadow 20:00
You mentioned something about him being for the people, social activists and a comment you
said was that only an activist would do something like this, do you think because you were so
visibly queer, visibly trans that you and all that stuff that you kinda even chose this path and
more like directed to it and lead on it?
Ash Farah 20:16
Yeah.
Also, what I liked about him and his story was, he didn't have a say in being Nabi. He really
didn't have the say in being a prophet, an angel like just decided. Okay, you're going to read
today, even though he couldn't, um, and stuff like that. I just, he didn't have a say in the role he
was put in. I don't think I did really like I think I had to speak for a lot of people who are able to
speak for themselves. I met a lot of queers and somali queers that were silenced or were being
killed or were, you know, one way or the other forced back into the closet through finances
through just threats of absolute violence and All these, you know different things. So I decided
— I like when I learned to speak, I decided to actually speak for people who needed to be
spoken for. And I held that. And that's the type of activism I do.
Sabrin Gadow 21:20
Is that how you define activism?
Ash Farah 21:23
Now, I feel like activism is just an individual who's trying to create social change. And that's like
when people say, well, that's very vague. That's true, because there's different forms of
activism. What type of activism I like to focus on and do is called healing justice. And healing
justice is mainly focused on trying to heal and create spaces for people and communities who
don't have space for those who are being under attack or ostracized or things like that. And
don't have spaces where they can be themselves, access resources, heal them deal with their
mental like, find housing resources, very direct action type teas when you meet up with people.
And because there's — no one really gets it better than someone who's going through it.
Ash Farah 22:18
So that's the type I do. There's different types. There's, of course demonstrative which was the
type you see when you see people protesting. There's media, which is more based on
awareness and getting the word out. There's journalism, there's direct, direct line journalism,
which you can see people at Gaza, you know, partaking in. There’s, you know, charitable based
or like, income based or people who work in lobbying, which I have done work in. Like all these
different things.
Sabrin Gadow 22:35
Do you prefer doing like more active work and creating more healing spaces or just doing the
work to heal people with their own traumas up, of just being consistently being attacked or
harmed, rather than things like lobbying or more demonstrative work?
Ash Farah 23:00
Um, yeah, like I got to work with out front. And as they are an LGBT lobby group in Minnesota
against conversion therapy and trying to get a band. Luckily this year they got a ban after
literally, since I was 15 pushing this. I'm so very excited about that. I'm like, I saw the
administrative stuff like the overarching side of activism. I've also partaken in demonstrations
like how I've actually held rallies at the state capitol, I've interviewed politicians and talk to them.
Like I sat down with Ilhan for God knows how long trying to explain LGBT him some issues. And
I got to see that and I got to see lobbying firsthand. I worked in anti violence for a minute. I also
did a lot of you know, I was a kid. So I did a lot of LGBT activism through my school. I did a
documentary based on the experiences of a trans student going through local education system
Minneapolis. I also did over 200 teacher trainings to educate educators on how to better support
and aid trans and LGBT students. I like went to various schools, there were some very, very
against the message that I was trying to do and the say, which was simply just the best policies
is to be inclusive.
Um, there's also I also got to see, like gone to countless protests, for BLM, for Black Lives
Matter. I've gone to black immigrant collective and helping here. I've done direct service work
with Minneapolis Transgender Health Coalition, and they're shot clinic and trying to reduce harm
to trans and LGBT folks through medicine. So I got to see a lot of different types of activism and
truly and honestly, nothing would bring me more joy and more impact than directly meeting with
people in crisis and helping them get resources that they need. I'm talking with 13 year olds, 14
year olds, who are just kicked out of their house and need to be connected with various
resources. And you know, we'll have someone there to show them that hey, it does get better
even if it's consistently shitty.
Ash Farah 25:49
And like just having umm like having people call you for and reach out being like hey I’m Muslim
and queer. I don't know how my family is going to be like this. How do I go about getting
financial independence? Various like, helping like people online, trying to get resources for visas
and visa help an asylum status and get into the US from Kenya. I briefly worked on this project
with mossier which involved a chicken farm in Kenya where a lot of LGBT women, lesbian
women, with their children and of course because you know, like it's a product of the situation
they're in, like, get gainful employment, because gainful employment allows people to have a lot
more safety net and be less targeted. And obviously I'm supposed to go do that documentary
project over in Kenya but umm my immigration status at the time was not going to be left to test.
It is one thing to go help another thing to permanently stay.
But yes, it’s truth.
Sabrin Gadow 26:50
Umm yeah that’s definitely valid.
Ash Farah 26:55
But yeah, I don't know. I like I've seen a lot of it. I think nothing helps more than what I'm doing
now, which is directly connecting with muslim queers on a one to one basis and giving them
hope and resources.
Sabrin Gadow 27:11
That is definitely important work considering how it’s very not talked about.
Ash Farah 27:13
It’s not very glamorous, it's not like, and it's good that it's not talked about often times, like, I
think one of the most horrifying times in my life was, I was in this one documentary called out
north. A lot of people may have seen it. It's about LGBT history in Minnesota.
And I was helping the director, as a high schooler, like just, you know, like, interview folks,
cameras and all that. And I decided and he decided to throw me in and talk about the Somali
LGBT experience I had growing up. I talked about how Brian Cole the center was named after a
gay man, a gay man publicly against the Vietnam War. And things like that would affect like, anti
war myself. So it worked out
and I only learn this because I wanted to know how, because that was a center I grew up with,
like, it's right around, cedar and it's majority Muslim base and stuff like that. And I remember
being literally shoved behind the bleachers, for being nothing more than myself. And I found it
weird that that was the name associated with the building. And if he knew what was happening,
how he would feel, and I talked about that. And of course, I didn't know that TPT which was on
was free TV, and the entirety of my neighborhood saw it. And I got a flood of like, threats and
death threats and people being obviously righteously mad.
Sabrin Gadow 27:44
And what do you mean righteously mad?
Ash Farah 27:50
They're just mad because they were like, how dare this person speak on the unspeakable. This
is an unspeakable, shameful issue. You know, like, how can you? can't be both LGBT and
Muslim and you can also keep the community out your mouth and that kind of stuff because
we're still black and anti-snitching.
Sabrin Gadow 29:03
Say that period!
Ash Farah 29:16
God, um, and there's just. Umm it was at a time where the community was facing a lot more
police surveillance and CVE and a lot of friends working on it and, you know, countering CVE in
that process and it was just, I found it very, very, very difficult to hold all my intersections and
push for intersectionality in activism in all these different ways, because I was literally being
attacked for nothing more than, you know, posing a question and talking about, you know,
talking about my own experiences. And honesty, I learned at a young age really gets people like
hurt and killed and I worried for my family because my brothers and sisters were being chased
from school. Umm like, it was a horrific time. And now I realize, hey, since this is —
it brought like, yes, the visibility brought a lot of good things. But it brought me a lot of direct
physical harm, a lot of mental strife. So, I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to stop
activism. I was just going to target the people I wanted to target. I didn't care about those, you
know, white queers are watching this documentary, they're not the ones that I need to like,
reach out to or share this story with,
those real people who needed real help, which I would much rather do so yes, my activism is in
more of the shadows now.
But guess what, so are these people so I'm going where it goes, where the work is needed to
go.
Sabrin Gadow 30:45
I respect that. First, you talk about CVE and for those who don't know CVE is Countering Violent
extremism a program the government created to infiltrate like schools, public programs, things
that like they're getting federal grant money for. To like surveil people who are like being seen
as like being susceptible to joining terrorist groups. Things can seem simple as like people like
putting on hijab and not putting hijab has been more interesting in school life, things Iike being
more interested in Islam so like literally that was punishing curiosity. So as someone who was
around during this time with this documentary were you apart of part of the active against fight
against CVE.
Ash Farah 31:23
Yeah and I remember specifically going to um, I think Ilhan was speaking at this event at the
Bryant Cole about it and was confronted by a bunch of students like myself about this issue and
I remember sitting there in that room like in like, in that set like in front row sitting there with
myself like by myself, just like realizing that I look to the left of me, and I saw the Macalin that
like, you know, those Islamic school teacher that would torture me. Crying for their own kids and
worried about their own issues and just like, I remember that moment, like, I don't get to pick my
communities. But I wanted to be there for all sides of me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:19
That’s such an interesting thing to say all sides of you. Wouldn’t you consider it hard to sit there
and be in that kind of space, were you able to look yo you left and look yo your right and there’s
people have actively harmed you. We've been a whole situations or violence situations, and try
to fight with something that not only harms you, but your community as well, while they're
actively harming you. Like, for example, the out north one, the documentary that you came out
talking about being queer, and all that intersection of being queer, Muslim, and smally. And now
you're being harassed because of that, and then receiving, like threats because of that, and
then not being the space where you're actively advocating for people who wouldn't think for
you?
Ash Farah 33:00
Because that's the thing about justice you. You either want justice for everyone regardless of
how they are to you or you? You're not, you're not you don't just advocate and, like, wish good
things upon people because they like you. You know, like, I made peace with the fact that I
wasn't going to be liked by my community early on. But that doesn't mean people should be
surveyed. It doesn't mean people should be, you know, having Muslim bans and it doesn't mean
that, you know, like, our community should be pushed out through housing issues and initiatives
without their voice, you know, and all those things like, doesn't matter if they don't like me, or if
they wanted me dead, because that's more reflection on them than it is on me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:57
And that’s on period.
Ash Farah 33:43
You know, and, like, I just I remember, there's been so many like, I loved Islamic studies, and
Islamic stories as a kid. Because, literally if you —- Nabi Mohammed literally had the closest
saxabas [disciples] who were his closest companions were men who wanted him gone, who
wanted him dead, who wanted him you know, for better like during their times when they were
not Muslim. You know, like they truly believed all those horrible things and still reached out, still
did but did not resort to immediate violence and all that so I just found that admirable and you
kind of grew in with me and within my own philosophies of life.
Also, liked Isa [Jesus], but you know, like you can't be saying that too loud and in a masjid like
this, you know, because that's kinda like you riding a little Christian line there. What do you
mean Isa? But like, yeah, that like sense of like, turn your cheek sometimes.
It's not about you.
Sabrin Gadow 34:00
I like that because at the end of the day it’s for the community. Yeah.
Ash Farah 34:19
And part of it, whatever affects them, will affect me. It will affect my siblings, it will affect my
sister. So I am of the community like I got here through asylum status. So Muslim ban is very
serious. Like it's, you know, that kind of stuff. So, definitely.
Sabrin Gadow 35:18
You talk something — when you spoke about activism you do you spoke about healing and
healing through that, how's that relate to the major you chose at Augsburg?
Ash Farah 35:28
Well, I'm not gonna lie. The major I chose that Augsburg was bio psychology, because it was
the closest to neuro psychology because it was the study of the human mind. And I'm pre-med
because I am an African stereotype. And despite that, my mom really wanted me to be Poli-sci.
I like a lot of people thought it was going to be Poli-Sci because of, you know, just my interest in
activism and advocacy and all those sorts of things. But I just thought that I couldn't have both.
But I feel like you can pursue medicine. You can't pursue medicine without knowing the
communities that you serve, and stuff like that. So I think it made me more well rounded person
like, Yes, I wrote curriculum. The moment — that was the first job I got out of high school for the
superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools by asked me after all the basically unpaid
trainings and work that I did to help create curriculum around LGBT history, and I was the
youngest person to be able to do so just because of that sort of work. And I found that policy
and politics and lobbying and working anti violence directly and working with youth all that did
not bring me the same.
It all had the same overarching theme of healing that I was trying to get. And I think the closest
to you know, a traditional healer is a doctor. So I really am hoping to become a doctor so that I
could help support a lot of non like a lot of nonprofits. I wrote a very —- I was a grant writer for a
minute. So I know the struggle of trying to get funding for your communities when they're like,
poor low income, stuff like that. So having a little couple names before your name, to like, push
something along to help your community really does help. Also, we literally have the worst
outcomes for, you know, Somali people here and there's a lot of like medicine, misinformation
that was given out by shitty people to vulnerable members of our community, and referring to
the antivaxxers who and also like, there's just not a lot of mental health advocates in our
community, even though for a vast majority of our elders are suffering from PTSD.
Ash Farah 38:00
You can't watch your entire family drown in a ferry and expect to be normal and then dropped
into a random country, that the only thing you have is faith in your religion, and expect and strife
and you know and expect to be normal with a lot of, you know, a lot of the female. A lot of older
people, all the females in our community have had issues of sexual assault or witness sexual
assault, there are more times I have a ricochet bullet from where my mom, got shot, it's just not,
you know, like it's just not talked about because and we need to have people who look like us
be able to address these issues. So it's not just, you know, just pray on it. Because that's the
only way to stop these cycles of trauma and stuff like that. So I would love and love to be that
person. And also guess what trans people also horrific outcomes when it comes to health care,
and so do black people.
So I figured it was the perfect calling for me.
Sabrin Gadow 39:00
That’s amazing, you talk a lot about unspoken, and things that are not talked about and is that
underlying theme that you’ve noticed a lot? Like what things you don't want to talk about things
we don't want to see we push aside and let that bubble until we actually have to address it.
Ash Farah 39:20
Yes, I think um, there's a lot of issues like that, but in particular, like queer Muslims have existed
and will continue to exist. It's just we choose not to talk about that because it's much easier to
tell your family that that cousin or that sibling
left or disappeared or got sick, then deal with the fact that this is a problem that needs the like
Reformation that we need to change the way we view the way, the way we accept treatment of
LGBT Muslims in our community.
Because that is not a reflection on the deen [faith] but a reflection of us.
Sabrin Gadow 40:10
You talk a lot about change. Do you think that the younger generation will bring about this kind
of change?
Ash Farah 40:12
Yeah, like the younger generations, I've already noticed have been more accepting and more
like conscious and aware of these issues and stuff like that it just comes down to if there will be
less of a literalist interpretation, and less, you know, hatred, but in, you know, we say, with every
generation, it'll get better and stuff like that. But, you know, hatred has a way of being taught as
a way of like, being propagated like Frederick Douglass said, it's easier to build a boy and make
a man or something like that, you know, it gets really, you know, and I think we shouldn't be
reaching out to youth, if people see like, that gay people cause diseases or like, they'll be like
Sodom and Gomorrah, like Qumul-lut [The People of Lot] you know, and stuff like that. And that
they are just generally bad people.
And they'll believe it because we're only 7% of the population. So it's not that many and even
trans people is even less. But even then we're still the same amount of people that have red
hair, you know, but like, youth aren't seeing positive, like impacts and positive, like members of
the community and stuff like that, who are out, who are visible or doing things that are, like
consciously positive. We're not going to we're not going to spark change.
Ash Farah 41:29
Where were we?
Sabrin Gadow 41:31
Sorry for the small break we took. We had to go grab a drink of water. You talk a lot about
visibility, and you talk a lot about the things that aren't talking about, and spoken about but you
think you made the chose to be more visible or did you feel like you had to like it was a duty you
owed?
Ash Farah 41:41
Here's the thing about visibility. I came out to my entire family at five. I wrote down. I'm a boy! I
loved Vikings, I loved all sorts of more masculine things, and what the immediate assumption
was, was that I had a jinn.
That I was possessed with a jinn and a masculine jinn and stuff like that or that I had an evil
eye or something. So they of course started you know, conversion therapies and stuff like that
to help and eventually, like it became I was a very, very honest kid so that obviously didn't really
didn't work at all because it was nothing wrong with me. And I this, I don't think there was a point
in my life where I decided to not be visible, I think I was always visible except under threats of
violence. That was it and I would, in a wouldn't even be a threat to me, it would be a threat to
either my siblings or my mom. And at that point, I started to like realize around the age of like,
nine or so that I needed to not be as visible not be as loud about it because it actually had
terrible effects on my mother and my siblings and my family in general. And it was, you know,
like, and I went along with it, I acted like I was consistently cured. I delved into Islam trying to
find some loophole, some something, some Hadith that like, show that I wasn't just this, you
know, weird, pariah! That there had to be something to explain my existence. You know, and
because I knew was true, and I wasn't lying and all those things, eventually found out the
Hamza one of the Saxaba [disciple] was performed a gender reassignment surgery on what
they would call them Mukannahth, which are, you know, like men who resemble women is the
direct translation, but which are trans women and of course, you know, transmen existed too at
that time and even in our and then I started to
Think. Okay, well, if the Quran doesn't obviously have anything against being like trans andthe
only Hadith I found was for it. I figured out right then that there was nothing and that Allah didn't
hate me, but that my people did. And honestly, people have hated a lot of people over time for
stupid reasons, you know people just love to hate. And I decided right then and I wasn't going to
be ashamed of anything that I had. Because I knew that if there was an Allah, that Allah was
merciful. Because I always read those the first line before any Sura [Chapter]. Do you know the
Most Merciful so I’m like if that is really true, then I am going to be fine. And those who wish
violence upon me, will have to account for it on the Day of Judgment. I found very that was very
faithful in that sense.
And I decided not to hide anything because Allah made me the way I was.
And I decided to be visible. And in the sense of I decided not to lie, which was a sin anyway.
You know? And that's okay. AndI just and I got to the point where like, I had no choice but to be
visible because not to be visible was going to kill my soul. It was just, I would have to pretend to
be someone I was completely not to everybody that I love and that they would start to love this
random person that I created. And I was not what I wanted. I wanted people to either hate the
authentic me or love the authentic me, then to love with this image, I propagate and hide out of
fear.
So if it was a choice, I don't even think it was a choice. I think the idea that it can be a choice to
hide yourself is actually really harmful, because so many Muslim queers I hear are just like, oh
yeah. Yeah!
Just go back in the closet!
When it's detrimental to your health and your physical well being, and your will to live because
why would you live if you can't sustain love or be authentic to your loved ones, or be honest like
that's not a life you're just living in a shell of a person, even though for but it's justified for safety
and I just realized I had nothing to lose and when it came to, obviously I had my life to lose. I
had like family to lose it like I had to leave at 13 I was homeless throughout my entirety of my
teen years. I've been beaten more like more times than I can remember.
I just —- in the sense of I had nothing to lose in the sense of the only thing I would have lost
was a fake life
I'd rather die a real one.
[RADIO SILENCE]
Okay? Hi.
Nothing???
Sabrin Gadow 47:30
Ohh (laughter)!
Going off your comment of dying a real one.
How do you feel? Headass.
You talk about you know that you had nothing to lose, you talk about your work and activism
and how it affected your family, and what does your family think of your work?
Ash Farah 47:50
It took, I'm not gonna lie I was disowned. It took a long while for me to get to a point where like,
where my mom and I can sit down and talk and do all that because was the once I left like it got
slightly better for them and over time it did get better for them in terms of being targeted and
having these effects but the fact that I continuously reached out and was doing work and I mean
I was like 16 doing it trans rally at the Capitol like it was you know, I was they doing teacher
workshop so it was entering classrooms you know, I was going against conversion therapy. And
that included Islamic conversion therapy, and stuff like that. So it was very much like can’t you
just go away and being gay somewhere else? Can’t you just not claiming to be somali, I just
change your name, change everything about you become fully Americanized, to be able to be,
you know, and I said, No, because I love my culture, and I love my people. I'm going to keep
this about me.
And then my mom was like, well I don't want you to come back in a body bag, please stop
speaking out with this is really, who does this help? Who does this help? And I'm, like, you
know, stuff like that because all it's doing is like harming you and I had my ribs are smashed and
I was, you know, like sleeping from bench the bench and like, like during school it was just not
good. It was not a good time and but I don't know like I just got it took literally until I was 20 to be
able to, for my entire family to realize that my leaving was to protect them so they weren't as
much of a target because I could not live there. And still, you know, I'd rather starve begging but
like doing that then have my family affected by a choice that I made a choice that I thought was
living the honest life, you know, and it took a conversation with my Mom to be like, hooyo, Abu
Talib, loved his nephew Nabi Mohammed, even though he was literally causing hell for him, his
tribe, his well being, and being called the daily like a crazy person or possessed by literally
everybody in his life, but he still defended a man who went against his core faith, he still died a
Kufar, he still died a disbeliever. You know, he still doesn't know he's still worship idols, you
know, but it was because of my family means more than that, if you don’t see that, I will find
family, and it just won't be you. And it just we had that, you know, moment of like, catharsis
between us. It took literally me making it into adulthood, making it my way in, you know, living to
tell them story about it. For her to realize that I made a good decision for her, the Family and
ultimately myself, because I'm in a good place now.
Sabrin Gadow 51:11
You referring to a prophet of like his life stuff like that making awesome letters to his life in your
life? Do you feel like you were chosen as well?
Ash Farah 51:23
No no no noooo. As much as I am borderline Kufar, now I'm not committing shirk, I just found
inspiring. That's all! I just found him inspiring and I find it like a good metaphor and stuff like that
for me to like, talk to my mom and talk to people that will view me as like this weird opposing
like, crazy person talking about like, Oh yeah, you can be queer Muslim, you can not be Queer
you can be queer and from some background and decide not to be Muslim. You can be Muslim
and do X, Y, Z because from diverse people, you know, and stuff like that.
While trying to remind people that through their own faith and stuff like that, like
People have been like people have been closed minded before in the Quran and it's not ended
up well for them. So maybe don't be like that?
Unknown Speaker 52:13
How does it feel to be told that because of your multiple identities and that you can’t be Muslim
when you’re like an Islamic scholar —Ash Farah 52:23
Oh I’m not an Islamic scholar.
Sabrin Gadow 52:26
I mean, like you’d win at a lot of conventions and you’re great reciter and things like that.
Like does it feel to know literally so much about the Quran, how does it feel to have someone
quiet literally struggled through their alif, ba, ta, [arabic alphabet] looking you dead in the face
and say that you cannot exist.
Ash Farah 52:44
I love that because it's not that you cannot exist is that my brain does not want you to exist
because then they will have to come up with this idea that Islam is more than their narrow
definition of the faith. At the end of the day is supposed to be easy.
Like, there was, you know, the story of like maybe Mohammed going into, you know, riding and
the baqra. You know, like, going on, you know, going to up to Jannah [heaven] and seeing all
the prophets and from Adam to you know himself and stuff like that and Allah saying that, listen,
this was prescribed I forget the exact number 40 times a day or something like that and moses
of being like, Nah man, if you're going back because my people couldn’t do even less than that,
so go back and back and forth between him and allah and he stopped at 5, the they decided
upon five daily prayers. And the lesson behind was Islam supposed to be an easy faith
accessible to all, regardless of race, gender, orientation, all that and I just until they grasp that
concept over there need to be you know,
Superior or their own prejudice with using justify justifying through the Quran they can I don't
think they ever will wrap their head around my existence?
… and I'm okay making people's heads explode because every fourth person starts to realize
well yes you can have both because like you know allah created people like me. So and that
you don't know everything you're just a stupid human being so follow your faith and be kind to
others
Sabrin Gadow 53:41
we're humans we live learn and make mistakes and grow and prosper. So as you a student at
Augsburg, can you talk about what kind of work you do here or that you are involved in?
Ash Farah 54:59
okay man. Um so I was a part of QIPOC like queer indigenous people of color which is a
student group here created to make space for queer indigenous people of color, of course, it
became a branched off of QPA, which is the main LGBT organization on campus. I'm the
current president and was on the board last year, really to create a space where queer people
of color can come together, chill, find solace in each other find community and get provided with
the resources that they need through and be able to come to social events during the campus
and stuff like that find people who have stories similar to them. It is a space for people who are
out and not out on campus, which is one of the you know, only spaces where people are
allowed to do that.
We make sure events are for the healing of the fundamental healing of our community, you
know, and we do various activities. We do various fun you normally do. Come together type
things because, you know, like, I want to create a sense of community here because in a
predominantly white institution and within those two, the two intersections alone, there's a lot of
ways that becomes a barrier to accessing the four year education here at this university. So it's
the least we can do as students to support each other through this horrific process, especially
since the majority of QIPOC are first generation and don't, you know, get this process at all so
it's better to go through it together.
That's what we do. QIPOC also has done resolutions for student government, for the protection
of trans people and trans day of remembrance. We also are part of the Equity Council, right
thing on campus and just various other student group collaborations with emphasis or this just
to insight a sense of intentional inclusivity, even in our Multicultural Student orgs.
Sabrin Gadow 55:01
I like how you say the word intentional inclusivity because (not just footnotes!) not just footnotes
because you're LGBT regardless.
LGBTQIA student services officially entered into MSS which was an intentional move to make
sure that we're including queer people who do have the identity where your a person of color too
so that is will not be treated like two separate identities.
How do you feel QIPOC is now navigating with the more boost of this new change?
Well, that LGBTQIA services included in MSS events being able to be under their wing not
either way, we'll be able to be like working closely with them despite that like do you feel that
this is a good move for QIPOC?
Ash Farah 57:54
I feel like this was ultimately a good move for QIPOC and was a move created and initiated and
pushed for by students last year.
We just did not like QIPOC only fitting really under on the LGBT student services or only under
multicultural services, which makes it really hard to find an advisor. Because, you know, like we
fit under both and I find that ultimately it'll be good for QIPOC students to be able to have
access to both things. Like and also have a space where they can be themselves among people
like them. So it's ultimately a good thing. Let's see.
Sabrin Gadow 58:26
How do you remain connected to your community or the causes you represent
Ash Farah 58:47
How do I remain connected to my community?
Well, I for now, due to a hate crime that was pretty recent and just trying to regain my own
health. I've been doing a lot of the direct direct activism that’s what I've been doing the last six
months.
Yeah, for the last couple months, um, but I just Yeah, but for the last couple months, but that's
Okay, because one way that I remain connected to the community that I want to represent and
that I am part of is through my student activism and student work.
So one way that I remain connected while trying to finish the course load of a pre med student is
through just like I had that horrific hate crimes. Sixth months ago.
Was it six months? I felt like no, it was July 4, actually.
About four months. Yeah, and the resulting concussion made school really hard to do so. I've
not been doing a lot of their direct activism that I've normally done but I've been active with
QIPOC on campus and creating groups and resources and reaching out to MSS groups and
stuff like that. So, students, the student group is one way that I have access to my community.
Another way that I like to remain connected to my community is through a book that I'm working
on. That I've been working on for about six months. And it's called, I don't know, I don't have a
title right now, but it will be basically be the Forgotten and 99 names, the other forgotten like the
other 99 names or something like that, where I would using the prompts of the you know, the
allah’s 99 names to showcase short stories and short interviews with Muslim individuals who
aren't typically included in the traditional narrative of what it means to be a Muslim. I mean, Like
for the obviously the most merciful, I will be talking about a friend miski, who in conversion
therapy had to had was literally taken back home for even more, you know, like conversion
therapy and stuff like that due to being a trans woman, which was seen as a form of
homosexuality and detestable by their parents. And she have not seen her since then. But, you
know, writing her story and what I know about her and how she did, and how she taught me
what, like, what mercy really like meant, that kind of thing on there's for the other 99 names, just
various, like queer Muslims or single moms or victim, Muslim women who've been assaulted,
sexually assaulted and all this by you know, just using the and interrogating these otherwise
forgotten stories and narratives into a, you know, short novel. And it's a process because it
involves interviewing a lot of people on a lot of topics that are very, you know, close to their
heart and not openly talked about in a lot of like Islamic circles, at least traditionally Islamic
circles that I've been in. And I think it'll be one way that I still remain connected in the
community, whatever presents also, another way that I'm remaining connected hopefully is by
the time I graduate, to start a another nonprofit.
Ash Farah 1:02:45
I co founded one early last year, which was for trans youth. Um, but another one which is we're
trying to come up with a name or debate debating whether we should say RUNTA which means
truth in Somali or come up with a more you know more pan-Islamic you know name for it but to
be an org dedicated for most queer Muslims and people from Muslim backgrounds who
happened to be queer and stuff like that so and just working on how that might look or what
types of events or things that might do so those are ways that I'm trying to stay connected.
Sabrin Gadow 1:03:29
Yeah, thank you and I as many other fans are, like can not wait for the book to drop
(laughter) thank you so much and thank you for your time. Thank you for sitting here with me
and talking about your path and your journey and it has been very informative and I want to
thank you for your time.
Sabrin 0:00
This is Sabrin doing an oral history project. Um Can you introduce yourself real quick?
Mustafa:
Yeah, this is Mustafa Jumale. Um yeah, uh 29. Black Immigrant organizer
Sabrin:
What identities or communities do you identify as being a part of?
Mustafa:
I am, I would say I am being apart of the Black immigrant communities. Um, also apart of the
queer community. And, you know, I think like I’m most connected to black organizers and
organizations, both like um multi generational African Americans and uh um black immigrant
folks I would say those are like my people really, you know? Yeah
Sabrin 0:48:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Yeah, um uh what do I wanna say about my childhood. Yeah, you know, um it was great, to be
honest. Of course, you know, growing up poor growing up as a, you know, as refugees fleeing
conflicts, having older parents who have to, like restart their life in a foreign country with new
customs and a language challenging but you know Alhamdulillah, like my parents pushed, oh,
you know, you know provided us with everything that we needed. Um I have 11 other siblings,
most of us live in the US. I have two siblings who live in Canada and one in Somalia.
Yeah, so my most of my life I've been in Minnesota, but when we first came to the US, we
settled in Kansas, Missouri, and then we live-moved to San Diego. Some of my siblings and my
cousin moved to Minnesota where they heard their jobs and then uh yeah. My brother got into
some trouble and was arrested and subsequently deported. And so my mom was doing a lot of
commuting back and forth between San Diego and Minneapolis and then ended up feeling like
Minnesota a better option for us as a family. So we moved to rural Minnesota, which was crazy
and in a city called Mankota and uh not very welcoming environment at all. And we were there
for like two years and then we moved to suburban Minneapolis, and Eden Prairie. And, you
know actually , some of my siblings still, one of them just moved out, the last sibling just moved
out of the complex that we had originally settled in the early 2000s. But yeah, so we moved to
Eden Prairie there was a larger Somali population, larger immigrant population. And went to like
middle school there and high school in Eden Prairie and transferred to Edina. Cause it was like
a shitshow for black migrant youth, particularly Somali youth. School was just being xenophobic
so I left and have yeah had a really better time in a Edina public schools and yeah.
Sabrin 3:37
Um, ok after you went to Edina public schools you went to the U of M, can you talk a little bit
about your experience at the U?
Mustafa 3:45
Yeah the U of M was great, I would say I had an overall a great experience. Of course, it’s a
historically white university, I mean, a predominantly white university so there the challenges of
being a student of color and immigrants in this space. You know, a lot of issues around policing,
particularly like the West Bank is like closest to the largest Somali population outside of
Mogadishu. Cedar Riverside, you know so the police just criminalize all Somalis basically on
the West Bank didn't know who was a student, some Somali kids, or some Black kids did
something, you know, does not mean you have to like criminalize all of the Somali students on
campus. So that was a particularly challenging thing. Otherwise, I would say adequate
experience. Was in the Somali Student Association, did a ton of research, met wonderful
friends. Some of them I’m still connected to. Uh, travelled to South Africa. Yeah, just like really
opened my eyes to many, many different things and opportunities.
Sabrin 4:53:
Yeah. So your apart of the Somali Student Association, at what capacity were you involved with
them?
Mustafa 4:56:
I was the outreach coordinator and I want to say at one time I was at, I was a secretary. Yeah.
And so yeah, I did it for one year, it was good. There was challenges, you know, because
they're just like different perspectives are just like different perspectives of the group, right? You
have people who are very liberal, people who were moderates, people who were conservatives.
So sometimes making decisions around like dancing, doing Dhaanto, cultural social things
where men and women were mixing were challenging, you know, but we got through it through
difficult dialogue, you know. Yeah the SomalI Student Association really,I think is a backbone for
Somali students not only in the capacity that they have to like just convene students, but to do
advocacy for them to, you know. And so I remember, like uniting as Somali students when the
Somali Student Association president, my sophomore year in college was like dragged out of
the Wilson Library on the West Bank of the U of M. An It was just that the University of
Minnesota police departments just at the time and I don't know these days probably the same
was just so Zena phobic and racist towards Somali students Yeah. I worked on a like oral
history project with immigration history Research Center at University of Minnesota. And that I
think was a significant project for me to like really understand other Somali identity, other Somali
youth identities and what there experiencing compared to what I was experiencing, transitioning,
again, part of being part of the 1.5 generation.
Sabrin 7:09
What do you mean by 1.5?
Mustafa 7:13
Uh 1.5 is like folks who were like born in Somalia, but raised in the US, like myself. So, you
know, like, I don't really have much of a memory of my time in Somalia. So, I would say that a
lot of like the 1.5 generation, we do a really good job of like, constantly negotiating, you know
the space between Somali culture and the US.
Sabrin 7:50
Yeah, so that's such an interesting way to say that. So you start a little bit about studying racism
in South Africa. How did that shape you as a person today?
Unknown Speaker 8:00
I think I my South African experience was really significant. You know, to like understand their
history about like, the trauma during apartheid that they had experience. It really helped kind of,
like inform my understanding and complexity around racism. You know, how racism can be so
complex and how racist ideology really like, is deeply embedded in these societies. And I will
say, you know, also like, just the way even that racism in South Africa is more complex, and like
different than other places. So that experience was really good for me like it helped me not only
understand like how the students in South Africa were being treated at what where historically
white universities and now are, you know, more and more becoming blacker and blacker. And
so at the time I was working on a research project with about the experiences of African
American and African students, predominantly white, and historically white University. So I
interviewed some South African students, you know about their experiences at these
universities and it's very similar experiences, you know, that you would imagine. White students
and fraternities doing ridiculously racist things, like the same things that you see on some of
these campuses in the US. I would say the way in which South African universities responded to
the violence that these white folks were perpetuating was much more progressive than how like
a lot of these US institutions and universities responded to. Really, I think like that tradition
comes out of their peace and reconciliation process. There was, God I forget his name now, but
I used to really be involved deeply in some of this research. But yeah, there was a minister of a
university that like some really fucked up, xenaphobic things happen. And he convened a whole
like reconciliation process, you know, obviously, the students were, I think, expelled and
punished but like, moving forward there needed to be a conversation. So going back to like
South Africa last year, and my own, a lot of the same issues, honestly, that I saw in all nine. So
10 years later, or eight years later, or nine years later. Xenophobia is still rampant over there
and the wealth still held by white folks. You know, there's definitely like the youth and listening to
what the youth and the like next set of leaders and how they will work around reparations issues
around land and money, you know. So now there's some really like progressive conversations
happening around that. But I don't think the current like South African Leadership would be,
would engaged in actually providing reparations for folks or taking land, taking and giving people
their land back, you know, from the apartheid.
Sabrin 11:49
No, definitely. The experience you had in South Africa really is a great one. How did that help
you when you came back to America and the next steps that you took towards your career?
Mustafa 11:56
Yeah, so when I came back, I just like continued to do that research. Do you know it helped me
realize, like, how interconnected the world is, you know, and how a lot of our challenges are
similar. And you know, at the time I had always had never left US, like aside from going to
Canada and so it was like really powerful experience for me. And so I just continue that
trajectory of like research did some more research on like, Somali history, Somali oral history
projects. And then yeah, and then I, I ended up like, you know, like being really connected to
some of those people. I'm in South Africa. So we're still in touch and you know, I still connect
with them.
Sabrin 13:01
That’s so nice. How would you define activism?
Mustafa:
I would say activism really is, is… Activism for me, it means, the way it manifests in my life is
that I pretty much have been working in public policy around human rights and humanitarian
issues. And the public policy work that I do now with Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI),
and the black immigrant collective work, and the consultation that I've been doing, I think, is the
form of activism because a lot of my work is just it’s mainly around issues that impact me and
my people and my community and I'm privileged in that sense to, you know, get to be paid for
the things I'm passionate about. For other people activism could be anything, you know,
anything that they're passionate about, like supporting in any way that makes us in their life.
Activism does not have to be like you showing up and risking your life in action. It could be you
donating, it could be you guys, whatever capacity you folks have. So, activism to me is
obviously like standing up for our fellow human beings really looking and making sure people
you know, have dignity in their lives and are not placed in a position where like, you know, I
guess the state violence will forever continue in this country but yeah.
Sabrin 14:55
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, no that was really great. You talk a lot about the work in activism you
do is policy work and that really contributes back to like the policy work you did back in, when
you used to work for Congress, Congressman Ellison and the work that you do for your current
organization called Khrye Solutions. Can you talk a bit about both those experiences?
Mustafa 15:16
Yeah, I had a really good time working at Congressman Ellison’s office. I mean, obviously, it
was really challenging. I was very young, and I was dealing with some, like, big community
issues, you know, like a lot of the work that I did was around foreign policy around human rights,
and so particularly around Somalia, Ethiopia, a lot of work on remittances. And remittances are
like money that's permitted back to people in their home countries, we call it in Somali hawala. Is
like and so basically people are sending, you know, maybe like monthly or weekly funds to their
families back home to support their basic living. And so I've done a lot of work on that. Me and
my colleagues were really leading the charge on remittances, on Somali remittances. And we
were able to pass a bill that provided like banks, a technical fix that they were asking about, that
they thought would help with the Somalia situation. Ultimately, it really did not help it. So the
deal that we worked on allows regulators to, to share information, you know, that state and the
federal regulators can now share audit that they do on remittances. And so did that.
And then did a lot of work on Ethiopian human rights. In 2015, you know, we had a bunch of like
folks who've been killed in Ethiopia, and there's a large Ethiopian population here in Minnesota
and so I wanted to build community to do advocacy around that issue. And really making sure
that that, you know, the US government holds these Ethiopian governments accountable, like
pressure to the Ethiopian government to not be killing its own constituents or its own citizens. I
worked with the Oakland Institute that's based in Oakland, California, on a resolution that was
passed last year in in Congress basically condemning the Ethiopian government for the killings,
the killings of the Oromo youth, Anuak youth, you name it. We did a lot of work also around O.
Chela, who's the Anuak leader in Ethiopia. And Chela was kidnapped by the Ethiopian
government, detained and tortured. And so we wrote a lot of letters to the administration, to the
White House, urging them to advocate for the release of Chela. Ultimately, he was released
when, you know, there was a big, like revolution like this, those uprisings that were happening
led to a huge shift in Ethiopian government, you know. Apparently so there's a new prime
minister, and upon when he joined, he released Chela and other political leaders, a lot of Oromo
leaders. So I remember reading that on Twitter, and this was after I had left Congressman
Ellison's office last year and just breaking down and crying, you know, just because I could not
believe Chela was released. I had never met Chela Amitabh at the Oakland Institute, helped me
figure out how to do advocacy around Ethiopia, in Congress, and they were working on his
campaign Campaign to get a Chela released. So that's how that's connected to that. But yeah, I
did that. And then so like really working for Congressman Ellison and other elected officials
really allowed me to like understand how state and federal policy works and how to move policy,
got to meet a lot of powerful leaders. And so that led me to like leaving Congressman Ellison’s
office and starting data Khyre solutions with my friend and then going I'm kind of like a retreat to
like a little time off to just relax. Because I was burnout. We were doing a lot of work around a lot
of work around voter engagement, a lot of work around the humanitarian lobbying. And so
ultimately, it didn't really work out for my friend. She was not interested in this type of work. And
I ended up continuing on my own. And then you know, Trump was elected. And as a result of
that, a bunch of us got together and established the black immigrant collective. Which is a
collective that is based in Minnesota that does community based advocacy work on black
immigration issues. It's mainly led by black immigrant women. So I've been doing that for almost
three years. And then through that I got connected to and more involved in immigration work.
There's also like several, like a lot of our work has been around Liberian DED (Deferred Enforced
Departure) because there's several Nigerians who are part of the collective. And so collective,
the collective started really after the Muslim ban was put in place like a bunch of us kept getting
calls and what like going on? You know, people who were worried that they were not going to
be reunited with their families and things like that because of this ban. Then from there, we
ended up working on immigration policies working on something called Liberian DED, Deferred
Enforced Departure. I call it Deferred Enforced Deportation. Yeah, so BAJI, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, reached out to them on us kind of thinking through like how we want to go
about doing this advocacy work. And so they flew out to educate us on some training. We got to
know them better, what they do. And then they invited us to DC to advocate for Haitian
temporary protected status. And temporary protected status is a status that folks are given when
the country that they're from experiences a man made crisis like a civil conflict or environmental
crisis, you know, like the hurricane, earthquake, things like that.
And so the administration so --Trump administration-- is terminating TPS for terminated TPS for
Haiti. So what that meant is that you know, close like 56 or 58,000 Hatiain TPS holders were
gonna become undocumented and be required to leave the country. And that's not even
including their children who would leave with them problaby, who are US born children. And so,
yeah, and so from there, we went to other convenings. And so they were there was a lot of, you
know, as the cookie at the time around Liberian DED, like a small group of people, Liberians, I
think we're working on it and other advocacy organizations. But we really came in there and just
like really uplifted the Liberian DED situation. And so Liberian DED is similar to TPS except that
the President of the United States has to extend it every year, so it's a discussion of the
president to extend, terminate or to terminate. So he decided to in 2018, he decided to
terminate it and provide people with like a year to get out of the country.
**techincal difficulties from 24:34 to 25:20 **
Sabrin:
Ok, we were talking about the president deciding to terminate DED in 2019 or 2018.
Mustafa 25:29
Yeah, so what he did was that, you know, he put the Liberians on noticed who were on DED.
Which, for us, we think it's about 4000 or 5000 Liberains who have that status. There are a lot
more eligible for that status. However, because of the, because of the fees associated with it, it's
expensive. You're talking about $400 $500 every year a pop applying for this. And so and we're
talking about people who are poor working class immigrants, and so some families have to
make the tough decision of deciding who in their family, usually the breadwinner is going to get
renewed. And so, and for others, they become undocumented. So, thankfully, you know, like, for
the past several years, you know, DED has been continued to be renewed every year.
And so, because of our advocacy, we actually were able to get DED comprehensive
immigration. Wait not the comprehensive immigration bill that was discussed a couple of years
ago in Congress. Okay, let me pause. I’m confusing myself. Okay, so what I'm trying to say is
that Congress earlier this year passed a bill called the Dream and Promise Act. It provides a
pathway to permanent status for DACA dreamers, TPS holders and DED holders. And so DED
is really only like 4000-5000. We got it to the point where they were included in that major piece
of legislation. We uplifted it as like a bigger issue with an immigration policy. And then all of a
sudden you have people like Nancy Pelosi and others speaking about the DED anytime they
talked about TPS. And that's how they talked about DED, which is great. And so as a result of
many, many years, I've only been involved in this for like the past three and a half years,
Liberian DED work. But many Liberian aunties, predominantly - and women, Liberian womenhave been doing this work for many years, for the past 20 years. And so in the past three years,
we're able to make a lot of strides. I think because the environments that we were put into
require us to act quickly and aggressively to protect our people. And so as a result of that
Congress last week passed a defense bill, defense bill passed in the House and then passed in
the Senate. And so the in that bill- first of all that bill is toxic. That bill is basically like, providing
funding to people, you know, military support for foreign governments, expanding our military
industrial complex here. But within this bill, there's language that Senator Jack Reed put in that
provides permanent status for Liberian DED holders. So that bill was passed in the House last
week, it's kind of tomorrow, the Senate is gonna vote on it. They expect the President to sign it
sometime this week. And just like that, you know, Liberians who have been undocumented for
20 years, in a couple of weeks can apply for a green card.
Sabrin:
That’s amazing.
Mustafa:
I know, this is such a big deal, you know, and so, I mean, this is probably one of the only
progressive immigration themes that have passed in this administration you know, and so I,
yeah. You know, for me, I've been doing this a while, and so I have the technical experience, so
do other people in the collective. So , yeah, it's just been simply amazing to see what we’ve
been able to do
Sabrin 30:09
Yeah, it's so nice to see your hard work and other people's hard work actually amount to
something, especially in this administration. And not only but an administration whose past
things like the Muslim ban, so that this got past is absolutely amazing. I am so happy for
everyone who affected. Okay, so you talk a lot about how you got into activism through policy
work and stuff and like activism through your schools, Somali Student Association and the
programs and jobs you've worked afterward. Do you think that you actively chose to become an
activist or do you think that fell into your lap and not fall into your lap but, like fell into your path
as you got older? And if so why?
Mustafa 30:42
So I've always been interested in like, human rights I've always been interested in protecting
and advocating for vulnerable communities and people. I think what really saved my
understanding around the complexities and the challenges we face as people of color in this
world when I went to college, and so I would say that, that really pushed me into working on
issues that are impacted by, you know, working on issues that people are being impacted by.
And from there, you know, I was gonna go to graduate school and become a professor. That
was a track. That was the idea. And then I decided not to out of circumstances. And I didn't get
funding to go to graduate school, you know, I was admitted to Cambridge University in the UK. I
was going to study African, get a MA (masters) in African Studies and didn't get funding so I
decided to work for the Minnesota DFL. I was TAing (teacher’s assistant) for a class at the U,
and one of my students encouraged me to apply for it. So I organized around East African
issues. And then from there that led me to working in politics and working in policy. I mean, it
was not an easy experience. I experienced a lot of trauma in this process. You know, I fell down
and burnt out myself one too many times, but continue to like, get up and try again, keep going.
The racism and xenophobia inside the Minnesota DFL and Minnesota politics in general. It’s
Crazy. The work that needs to get done, you know, around it to really make sure that we are
seen as equal partners in the Democratic party here. And so I'm no longer really organizing
around Democratic electoral work. I mainly now just focus on issue based teamwork, you know,
like immigration, other issues, the policies of those things so, and, you know, doing some
advocacy and activism around that. I'm not, I don’t foresee myself, like ever getting involved in
the Minnesota DFL. Again, just because I don't have I mean, I don't have time for that. I think
people are trying to change here. Hopefully, it becomes a more inclusive organization. But yeah,
I mean, like working at the state legislature and organizing what them, these people really don't
understand. Like these people, I would say are really taking advantage of people of color, but
are not coming through for us when it comes to issues that matter to us.
Sabrin:
That’s definitely true, especially with the DFL it always feels like they’re there for us during like,
when it's time to vote, and when we have to like elect our officials, but after that they kind of
seem to just fade out and not be some concerned are like our policies or issues that affect us. It
just feels like we're being used, which really sucks. And it caused a lot of burnout and frustration
because it feels like not being supported by the community or political group that’s supposed to
support you. And it’s really frustrating. Moving onMustafa 34:18
Yeah,
Sabrin 34:19
Oh, sorry keep going.
Mustafa 34:21
Yeah, no you're right it’s frustrating. That was my DFL experience.
Sabrin:
Moving on to our next part. Do you still, are you still part of the faith?
Mustafa 34:37
Yeah, I consider myself Muslim. You know, I grew up in a Sufi household and so I really like the
Sufi tradition. I was lucky enough to go to Somalia with my father in the last couple of months of
his life. And from that experience, I really got embed myself in the tradition of the Sufis in
central Somalia in particular, and it just really like opened my mind a lot of their traditions and
their practices. And then you know, I was going through a crisis you know, like my dad was
dying so I started reading the Quran
Sabrin:
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Mustafa 35:20
No, thank you. Yeah, my friend. And so my I started like reading the Quran, but the English
version of it. And I remember like my uncle and my other relatives being so fascinated and so
shady about me reading the Quran in English. They were just like really surprised, they were
like ‘Wow. How can you do this?’
Sabrin 35:52
It's almost as if Old Arabic is such an easy language to pick up like, I know people who have like
master the Quran, but there's no one single thing about it because they don't understand the
language in it. So the fact that you can even read it in English is such a good way to learn more
about it but still have a connection where it's like I know it's going on in other words, I know how
it relates to me and my life.
Mustafa 36:13
Yes, I consider myself, I, you know, like, really value the experiences like that I had with the Sufi
tradition. And a lot of it was like meditative to be honest I got involved in meditation center for a
while and a lot of it reminded me of that, you know, chanting, sitting in silence, meditating to
this very rural, very rural place called Burroraqadi, I think it’s called that. I’m probably
mispronouncing it but, like I think it translates to like a place where a lot of people died. But I
went to a Sufi university, that one of my relatives was teaching. And I was like, it was so
beautiful, you know? It was so tranquil, like, so peaceful. And the women had their own mosque.
First time I ever saw that. And because most times, you know, you see the mosques like they
don't provide a lot of space for women.
Sabrin 37:39
Oh, it's always like they’ll have the men’s side decked out 10/10 beautiful, clean head to toe.
And the women’s side will be like an empty broom closet Two rugs in there and they say, why
are you upset? You’re lucky you are even being allowed into here and you're like, ‘Oh, my bad.
How dare I expect right oopsie never again. But, no, it's really nice they have their own
mosque, that’s something they don't really see. Yeah, so how does being Muslim cosign with
your activism?
Mustafa 38:06
Oh, I think it's part of my faith calls me to it. Yeah. For sure. Like to like, stand up for people's
dignity and humanity and rights and being struggle together across communities and in an
intersectional way. Yeah, I really do believe that my faith is really what caused for us to be
involved in our communities.
Sabrin:
Islam is a religion of peace.
Mustafa:
Oh yeah, just tell that to the administration.
Sabrin 38:51
Hoepfully they’ll understand soon enough. What is your experience as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa 38:57
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Sabrin 39:02
Oh, I’m sorry. What is your experince as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa:
Oh, I would say, good. You know, funnyliy enough like a lot of the people even leading the
liberation work are queer black folks in black communities tend to be queer. So like, for
example, if you look at the National Immigration advocacy world, particularly the folks that do
advocacy around black immigration issues, most the majority of the folks network are queer
black migrants are leading that work. And so I would say, like, the ways that it intersects,
honestly, is that it allows us to, like view some of these issues in a more complex way, you
know. So, for example, like we, I was recently writing a letter on Somali temporary protective
status for a member of Congress. Basically they're sending that letter to the administration to
advocate for Somali TPS status to be reinstated. And in that letter, I wrote like, if Somali TPS
holders, are sent back to Somalia, you know, like women and people from marginalized
communities, like queer Somalis, will be persecuted and girls. You know, and, so I think it just,
it layers, like the kind of work that we do. I would say it's also challenging because, you know,
some people are stuck in their ways around queerness. like as if so, like, as if, like, I don't know,
I actually don't know how to explain this. Like, I think it's just homophobia, you know. I'm like
trying to figure out a nice way to say this but it’s homophobia.
Sabrin 41:01
Some of the most complex feelings and emotions can really boil down to homophobia. And
that's really sad. But it really is a-
Mustafa 41:07
It’s homophobia because yeah.
Sabrin:
It really is.
Mustafa:
YeahSabrin:
Oh, I’m sorry did you have something else to say? Ok, so you talk a lot about about the reasons
why you do this and your experiences and like the work you've done. How does your family
think of your work? What does your family think of your work?
Mustafa 41:37
Yes, just to like finish that thought on the queer Somalis. I'm used to queer activism.
Sabrin:
Oh, Im sorry
Mustafa:
Yeah, no, the only thing I was gonna add is that like the word so I was telling you how like the
majority of the people, the black migrant organizing nationally, and leading the policy work on
queer black migrants, the people that we work with directly impacted based on my experience
has really welcomed us and accepted us you know as who we are, and are grateful for the work
that we do. You know, and I've really become like kind of like family to us. I think there are some
people who may be intimidated by you know, queer folks and don't want to work with us. And
that's that, we can’t do anything about that.
Sabrin:
Yeah I’ve definitely realized growing older and like, like moving more into my adulthood is, when
you get people by themselves, their gonna be really cool and their understanding but group
dynamic or group think belief, because the majority will only sway the few and that real sucks.
Going off that, what does your family Think of your work?
Mustafa:
My family is very supportive of my work. I think they're very supportive of my work and I've
always been honestly like. You know, they've heard my broken English, I mean broken Somali,
on BBC Somalia talking about remittances and TPS for Somalia. Other issues so they're proud
that I'm able to like, work on issues that our communities. Yeah.
Sabrin 43:23
That’s so nice. Ok, Any final thoughts or statements you'd like to add?
Mustafa 43:39
But what I would say is like, I'm really inspired by the Somali queers youths that are up and
coming right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing that the work that they lead in the future.
Like over the weekend, I was just observing stuff on Twitter, that like a bunch of Somali queer
youth were just engaging in like, just dialogue around, like queerness and sexuality, you know.
Like this, this young Somali queer woman or femme? I want to say probably probably like 19 or
20 or 20. Posted a pic of her and her girlfriend, you know, some of the Somali Twitter just kind
of went south.
Sabrin:
Yeah. Some people, are just jobless and have so much time to comment.
Mustafa:
Yeah, but its so inspiring to see how the Somali queer youth are responding. How they are
likeI'm here and not afraid. It really brings a lot of warmth to my heart.
Sabrin:
That’s such a beautiful way to end things off. People as always say the youth are our future, and
it's so nice seeing the Somali youth stand for themselves and who they are and undeniably live
their best life.
Mustafa:
I know right? And for a lot of them, I feel like Canada is where it’s at for Somali queers right
now.
Sabrin:
The way Toronto is popping for no reason.
Mustafa:
I know! You see that?
Unknown Speaker 45:23
Thank you so much time with me. I really do appreciate it.
Show less
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do y... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name?
Mohammed Dukuly 0:23
Yes, I do. Mohammed means the praised one like the prophet of Islam. It means
the praised one the one that Allah praises and also the angels also praising and
(indecipherable). So his name is Mohammed. The Dukuly we are descendants of
Jacob. You know, sometimes they tell us the meaning of that. The land owners the
the kings of the land and it can also mean Warriors, people that always been
targeted. And so we are, you know, given the story of Joseph, you find that a
lot more, in our family and outsiders looking at us from that perspective.
Malissa Lamah 1:16
Okay. What tribe do you identify yourself as?
Mohammed Dukuly 1:20
well originally we are Marka people from Mali, the descendants from Mali our
great grandfathers and then migration moved them from Mali all the way to
Liberia. And but this is not just 100 200 years ago, much more than that. And so
we sent to in the area where we speak also different dialects like Vai or Collo
and so interchangeably. People call us Mandingo Vai Mandingo, Collo Mandingo,
and so we identify ourselves with all of it because, we we do not discriminate
against the locals and we speak those tribes and so we consider ourselves Vai,
collo, madingo and kpelle in some instances.
Malissa Lamah 2:15
okay. How was life in Africa for you? How is it like in school and your daily
life?
Mohammed Dukuly 2:20
Well quite honestly, unlike many other people, maybe because of the way our
parents were. I did not face any major difficulties in growing up in life
because our father, and they have means of taking care of us, as marka. They
have so many other family, children staying with them and providing shelter,
feeding and also school, our school fees, and so forth. So there were challenges
Yes, but it was not to The point of some other people where they have to sleep
hungry, and I didn't have to go through that, where they have to struggle for
school fees. I didn't have to go through that. If the father was not around, our
mother was there. And so we were not rich but we were not to the point of abject
poverty.
Malissa Lamah 3:25
Okay, did you ever go to college and what is your current occupation?
Mohammed Dukuly 3:31
Yes, well, yes. My current occupation right now like you said, I'm a imam but
I'm a student of politics and also Islam. A I spent a large number of my May as
the age actually going out to Islam, studying Islam under the dictatoralship of
not just my father, my uncle and also Sheikh Mohammed, for (indecipherable),
they're knowledgeable people today in the world. Islam. If you can't he will be
among the first five, and so many other scholars as well.
Malissa Lamah 4:11
Okay, as a kid, as a kid what was Islam to you, when did you realize that you're
Muslim?
Mohammed Dukuly 4:17
Well, we're born in Islam. Our father is a scholar. He was a teacher professor
teaching. A lot of students knowledgeable people come from all over all walks of
life. So we grew up our mother. Also our background is Islam, like I told you,
we are descendants of Jacob. And so throughout the lives of our grandparents,
great grandparents, our fathers, they teach Islam, so we were born in Islam. We
didn't convert to Islam were born Islam. So we live Islam we wake up Islam, we
sleep we eat Islam. And so it was easy for us to be called Muslims because this
is what we knew.
Malissa Lamah 4:58
Okay, who inspired you to learn more about Islam.
Mohammed Dukuly 5:02
My dad, my dad and my dad was the main inspiration and our mother our father was
like I say, a great teacher. And so he he always called upon us even after
school he said come and learn it because the life doesnât they have bone in
it, It can go anytime. And So he he actually put more effort encouraged us to
learn more about it. And I wish I had done this maybe 10 times more than I did
you know, so that I can know more. But I'm given whatever went through with him
and others quite show is helping me to help other people as well
Malissa Lamah 5:44
Okay did you always study Islam. How did you start to go like interest in
religion?
Mohammed Dukuly 5:50
You know, I grew up like I said to you, my our father had a lot of students he
was teaching them and I begin I started to grow interest in that. So Here is
what we had this Islamic school that we go to it was it was Islamic. It was
actually the combination of Western is what it call school and Islamic school
together And so we go to school, we have a classes with Arabic teacher, and then
we'll also go to our regular classes. And then we'll come back in the evening we
also have to learn our and father will teach us and then go for Islamic Studies
at the teachers house. So that was really tedious. You know So we have to not
only that we have to get up early in the morning to do Islamic studies get ready
to go to school to go to school we have to so when we graduated from high
school, we actually graduate a concurrently with two High School Certificate
because you graduating from the Islamic High School at the same time, but it's
the same school, you know, so a that was that was really an amazing thing. You
know, and so That was the motivation because there was no no time to waste by
the way, no time to waste.
Malissa Lamah 7:06
Okay, let's see who inspired you to learn more about islam,
Mohammed Dukuly
My father.
your father?
7:10
Malissa Lamah 7:11
Yeah Okay. Let's see, after high school, did you just continue to study Islam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:17
Yes. I've never stopped everything I'm doing now never stopped. Because it's a
process that you can't stop.
Malissa Lamah
Yes
7:24
Mohammed Dukuly 7:24
you know, you have to keep you have to keep reading you have to keep you know,
voluminizing yourself with different opinions of different scholars, different
schools of thought and so so forth. And even just the Quran alone, you could be
studying that throughout your life.
Malissa Lamah 7:41
When did you become an imam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:44
Well, I became an Imam I think 1986. But in the house in our compound, we have
masjid. So this masjid I was one of the imams there but the Supreme Council of
Islamic Affairs in 1986. commission me as an imam. You know, so from that point
to this point, I have served. But prior to that, With the masjid we have in our
yard? Any one of us could be Imam to led the prayers and then even before that,
I was also like assistant imam of the masjid, you know, in our city
(indecipherable) Assistant Imam to the Imam. You know but, at that time because
I was much younger, I could not do the Friday prayers, but it came to a time I
started to, to also assist the Imam on Friday, prayers and so and so forth. And
I was the one making the dua I was the (indecipherable) I was the one if the
Imam is not around I lead the prayers and so and so forth. It was really
encouraging from everybody, you know, to make us to grow up in a way that if
theyâre on that route we can represent them.
Malissa Lamah 8:47
Yeah. Okay. When did you come to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 8:52
Well, to come and stay that I can say 2004 since 2004. I've been here but my
first time I ever came to America. Maybe this is almost like 30 something years
I came here. But this time I came 2004 I've been here ever since.
Malissa Lamah 9:11
How was it for you like to from that change from Africa to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 9:15
Quite honestly. There are a lot of cultural differences, cultural differences,
and, you know, just imagine growing up with people. And when you here you're not
around them, you know, and there too many things happening behind you, some of
your family members, friends, colleagues, schoolmates, passing away and then
that just the fathom youâre not around to participate in either their burial
or the ceremonies and this that. so all of that brings a lot of different
emotional issues. Having said that, America yes we might be away from our
cultural environment. But America does not stop you from practicing your culture
here. And so What I have done is to look at the good things that exist in
America and apply it in my life. You know, there are so many things to learn
here, you know, apply in my life and use it to help other people. You know, I
can't be here just because I come from a cultural background maybe. And then I
ignore the good things here. And So because because I've been able to assimilate
to to understand that number of things that are good here. So it make my life
makes my life easier.
Malissa Lamah 10:31
Okay, where did you live when you first came here?
Mohammed Dukuly 10:34
Well Well, I have always live in Minnesota. I came here. The first time I ever
came to Minnesota was 1987 yeah 97. I came here and then I went back, you know,
I came to see my sister. And So the second time like I said, 2004 I came, you
know, we just been here and just just just look at a the vast difference between
the weather condition coming from a tropical weather, and come into the
excessively cold area. Yeah, but we've been able to adjust ourselves. It has not
been easy to cold and you know, we canât hundred percent adjust ourselves to
it but given environment and and also the friendship that we've been able to
establish here. It makes us to to actually forget about the weather.
Malissa Lamah 11:17
Okay, so you came here. You came to Minnesota specifically because of family
that was here?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:22
because of family. Yes.
Malissa Lamah 11:23
Okay. Let's see, how are you able to get in contact with other West Africans in
Minnesota?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:29
Well, because of the of the religion. We have family here that were here before
I came. And one of the ways that I were able to connect myself with the entire
African community in Minnesota is because of my cousin, who came and asked me to
to go to Masjid Noor and re-lead the prayers, because they have wanted for an
Imam To to also come from West African community Who will from time to time help
to preside over the prayers. And I said to him well yes Im Imam but I don't want
to do this well they begged me and so I I started to go to Noor and then we
close the Mosque and rebuild it and then I became imam there ever since then and
so because of that I was able to bring the entire West African community
together we all go there and pray and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 12:26
Wow, was Masjid Noor one that was in Minneapolis
Mohammed Dukuly 12:29
Yeah on Lydale 1729 Lyndale Avenue North
Malissa Lamah 12:33
okay, So coming to America as a Muslim for you, how was it what are some of your
positive and negative experiences?
Mohammed Dukuly 12:41
Well the positive thing I can say is that we came in we got accommodated but in
those days when you're traveling because sometimes because your name is
Mohammed? Yeah, then when they say is a random check in and then they throughly
check you of course my coming it was a different thing, I did not experience
that. However being here I've never personally been confronted by any
individual, because of my faith, or sense of about our community feels
threatened by heightened political rhetoric, you know, political leaders making
comments that could incite all those against Muslims. And so that is
intimidating enough. You know, so I don't have to be targeted as an individual,
but if the community is targeted I feel targeted. And by the way, it's not the
majority of the people that targets the Muslims. Maybe they just mini portion.
And so I look at the goodwill of the majority of American people, whether it is
in Minnesota, in particular, some of the political leaders I have been invited
to Congress to talk about these issues and I saw how accommodating the senators
were, in terms of guarantee the protection and the freedom for everybody, as
long as we live in this country
Malissa Lamah 14:15
Has the community ever been targeted at all? From what you've seen?
Mohammed Dukuly 14:19
Well, if if one like For instance, if masjid like masjid in Bloomington was
targeted, so why would I feel immune that my masjid will not be targeted and it
so nobody can tell me some isolated case, it was a concerted effort and the fact
that even our leader refused to condemn that, that was even more frightening.
And so, for whatever reason, he didn't do it. But uh, Alhumdulliah we like we
always say, we don't depend on the protection of man. We depend on the
protection of the Almighty God and God is protecting us (indecipherable) being
giving the action of So many political leaders definitely maybe I don't know
whether it's a tactic to scare people away from here or something. But
Personally, maybe I have not been targeted, but I fear particularly for our
daughters who are wear hijab and they're targeted 10 times more than the men
because because of the way they look and so, in their workplaces, in the schools
and campuses or even in the shopping malls, and so and so forth or driving by
themselves, you know, and so somebody who just target them, and so it is only by
Godâs own protection that they are, they have been able to, to live their
lives.
Malissa Lamah 15:49
Have you faced any microaggressions or stereotypes at all?
Mohammed Dukuly 15:54
well but of course, every single person of color when you even walk in the
store, you're already been a suspect of a crime that you did not commit. And so,
we see that they don't have to come directly to you to say, you know, you see
these innuendos, you see these actions that are part of people, business
centers, you know and so and so forth, they might not come to you directly and
but they feel somehow you know for instance I walk in a store and this is just
few maybe two weeks ago, and then I went a particular something but it was
locked up I told the lady to what it call so you can, so you canât put your
hand in there you only what it call something and I could buy the whole
stuff,and entire stuff, but because I'm black, she looked down upon me and this
is something that this particular girl when I started using this product she was
not even born. She was not even born. So it is a product that I've been using
for the last maybe more than 25 years. And she's this like maybe 19 or 20 so she
was not even born, but I acce- I felt really bad because what if I was a white
guy? She wouldn't do that.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
17:20
Mohammed Dukuly 17:20
So I feel aggressed but I let go because I don't want for anybody to lose their
job because of those kind of stuff, but we always feel feel-Even when we're when
I'm going out I always feel that somebody will aggress me whether it is in a
shopping center or maybe in the street or or just because the way we look, you
know, just because the way we look they at us with suspicious eyes.
Malissa Lamah 17:50
Yes. And do you feel that being a person of color and black, I mean not even
black, and Muslim, it makes it worse for you?
Mohammed Dukuly 17:58
of course yes that makes it Worst and because also of the position some of us
occupy, I canât hide myself, I canât do that I have to be open. And so I I
expect aggression. Now, I don't have to be aggressed to feel the pinch of it.
But the anticipation of that the fact that I have expected that somebody could
do it is worse than even the attack itself. So most people don't understand that
it's not because they attack you. It's because you're expecting somebody could
attack you. That is worse than me at that. You know, that you live in constant
fear and frustration, you know, and these expectations bring that kind of, you
know, feeling to you.
Malissa Lamah 18:37
Yes. Okay, so now let's talk about MMA, the Minnesota Madingo Association. How
did that come about? And did you take part of it?
Mohammed Dukuly 18:46
Well, I wasn't here when when the MMA started but MMA started as a result of
community getting together to unite and also provide cultural practice and
education for not just for the for the older folks but for our children. The
children that were born here and also find a way to see how we can make them to
understand that yes, they're American kids, but they also have a cultural
connection. So in order and then to if you don't have the elders, the parents
getting together, most definitely that becomes a difficult situation. Now, when
I came into it, Instead of just having a social club, I decided to talk about
Masjid, you know, that was not in the program because Masjid can easily bring us
together because we meet unlike MMA, a monthly basis, the Masjid we meet every
week in Ramadan we meet every day and every night You know, so, so and then we
also attach a school that will open we brought all the community kids together
even you are a beneficiary of that. And so we brought it community kids
together. The children that did not even know each other before they get to know
each other, and then also even for the strengthening the relationship between
the parents even sometimes the parents that were not speaking to each other,
because when they see the kids, you know, embracing each other. And that became
a source of further uniting and straightening the MMA. So, MMA is is a viable
organization in terms of how it has served the community in terms of when they
saw marriage program going on. Baby naming ceremoney, or somebody dies MMA works
around that and develop resources to be able to take care of all of that. So, so
that's my involvement. So I am I am part of MMA, and MMA is apart of our
community, as an Imam I'm part of all the organizations and even part of the
Guinean Association and I'm part of what it called something Nigerian community
the Gambian the Senegalese and So and I'm with all of these group because we all
pray together and then also they need me at relevant services I go to their
mosque I go everywhere, you know, when they need me, they see me as their imam.
And so I shall not just make myself a member just of one organization I have to
do with everybody, particularly everybody praying behind me. So, so that is my
involvement, not just with MMA, but different community organization.
Malissa Lamah 21:22
Okay. And what do you hope to see that this program can achieve in future?
Mohammed Dukuly 21:28
Well, I think what this program is going to achieve is, is further strengthening
the relationships between individual members and within the culture community
itself. And then also, the children coming up will know that their parents came
from somewhere. You know, it will tell you some people came here before maybe
about 80-100 years ago, from the Middle East. And they have places like Medina.
Yeah so it's like (indecipherable) it so this way Arabs who open some of the
series here, but because they lost the language and they lost their cultural
practices today if say somebody tell you the history, you can't even know they
existed. And so, what we hope to achieve through this organization is that a
constant reminder of where we are from. And so the children behind us they will
see that as a way of connecting themselves with the continent where their
fathers came from or in by extension, maybe their grandfathers because we're
also having grandkids here.
Malissa Lamah 22:48
So do you think that culture is very important for next generations in the
community?
Mohammed Dukuly 22:54
culture is very important. culture is very important to us. And we should make a
more important image to our kids because Why, the society has a way of, of
taking away, particularly the most powerful nations like America they, it has a
way of taking away the cultural practices of the people now, what is our
culture? Our culture is a culture of respect. The reason why we emphasize that
it's not just the language it's the way we behave, how respect our elders how
look after our kids, and extended family members, we want for our kids to know
that and service to humanity. And this is what our fathers did, can you imagine?
Every single day, our mothers used to cook food, and keep some food for the
stranger that they will not even expecting. Every day, they will do this. And so
we want for our children to know, and sometimes we pray that no strangers should
come so we can we can eat the food and something like that. But every day they
have to do this. So those are all unique cultural practices that we don't want
for our Children to lose that we want for them to know that this is important.
Yes, you in America, but you have to be humble. You have to be respectful. You
have to be caring, you have to be loving. You have to you have to provide for
others who might not even be related to you. And then also know how you can help
your family and sosososo. So that's the reason why cultural our culture is
important because it's highly embedded into into Islamic principles.
Malissa Lamah 24:30
Okay. And in general, not about you, it can be about anybody, but do you think
that culture our culture/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Mohammed Dukuly 24:41
Yes, yeah. Um, so
,yes, the culture interferes, because the reason why that happens is because of
sometimes most of the people that are practicing their religion, they're
ignorant of the religion, so they could be practicing something and believe that
this is Islam is a - like for instance, okay let me just say this Islam requires
a parents to ask the young girl her consent in order for her to get married to
anybody, the culture denies that the culture chooses they make arranged
marriage. Islam the Prophet .... say ask your daughter, if she is willing to get
married to a particular individual. If she says no, it said don't force her, but
our culture, even sometimes to the extent of saying if you don't marry to this
person, I would disown you and they do that. So that interferes with the with
the Islamic principle. You know, and people people do that all the time. They
don't what it called something. And it's another thing also the culture
interferes is a okay. Someone is married to somebody else's daughter. The mother
the mother in law of this lady interferes with her marriage. So as a result,
most of the marriages are breaking down because of that cultural thing. Their
mother, she has led her own house. Now she want to come and control her son's
house. As a result of this, there's always a clash. And that's wrong because
when you get married to a woman, that woman, this is her house, he has control
over this, not your mom, but because of the cautious some of the men even don't
understand that this house is is is the woman of this house that in charge
because that's what the Prophet ... Say (indecipherable) the woman is a
custodian of her husband's house. You know, it's not that it's not your mother.
It's not your mother, but the mothers are interfering and that's based on
culture is not based on Islam. And we all wear the hijab and everybody look
Hajah, and Moumina and Khalita and all that but so those are cultural
deficiencies That actually interferes with a true religion of Islam now, if you
don't know islam and you see a Muslim doing that you almost as aware this what
Islam teaches? it's not the case. So the culture interferes with that kind of
stuff and also the culture. The culture, the way the culture is, is like some of
the culture when it is in Africa that women are not supposed to express
themselves. Women are not supposed to be hoarders of personal property and islam
Say women can own her own property and woman and her husband can have a
conversation. All that is required for both parties is that when the husband
speaks to the wife he should be respectful, when woman speaks to the husband
should be respectful. And if there are kids do not do the arguing in their
presence because why they will learn from you are the highest teacher, in front
of your kids so all of those things. Some of these practices of clash with
Islamic culture and tradition.
Malissa Lamah 28:03
Okay, and let me (indecipherable) into Islamic beliefs, what do you see
happening in our, like community a lot that you think should be changed or
doesn't go along with Islamic beliefs,
Mohammed Dukuly 28:20
Well not just Islamic belief, I think was, honestly frankly speaking what I
don't like in our community, and I hope and pray, and I worry about this every
day that this could change.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
28:33
Mohammed Dukuly 28:33
is is personal envy, I know it will always be there. But I have seen some other
communities where it comes to the growth of the community. They abandon personal
envy, and they promote their community and they go up because the stronger
people you have in the community the better for that community, but for us, yes,
we can We get pretend, we say, Oh, yes. But we'll see one of us excelling, way
up. We do everything to bring that person down. As a result, we all remain down.
There's nobody up, who is the most powerful person, in our community in
Minnesota, if you ask this question, people will be scratching your head,
because it doesn't exist, not that we don't have the potential or the capacapacity to be strong. But it's because of the fear that if I show myself off or
if I begin to help the people I become the target for that, so why would I want
to risk my, my, my future on it, because I went ahead and so some people back
down they back off. So this is a negative self that exists in our community, and
I wish and pray that this can change, hopefully that can change. And so and then
also, and that is, is is what I consider self centeredness. You know, so people
are more concerned about themselves. They are not concerned about the community
if the community is strong and growth definitely will be able to to address lot
of challenges. That immigrant communities are faced with but because we don't
work together, we backbite each other we slander each other. And so, we bring
people who are excelling who could help us and we put eye under them and we try
to bring them down. So as a result everybody keeping their shell.
Malissa Lamah 30:17
So what do you feel like to solve that problem? What would be what stuff can be
done to fix that?
Mohammed Dukuly 30:24
I would hope that if we can make because it is going to be difficult to change
the hood of folks, if we can build institutions and educate our children that
born here to see that their success, and this their strength will be based in
community unity, and that the more people are together, the better the community
will rise and providing that kind of platform in education. I think maybe that
that's the only hope I have. But to say our community, giving what we are what I
see every day, and older folks, it's going to be difficult to change that. So if
we can get together and build institutions that can, can, can can move the minds
of our children. I think that will help a lot. Because why I am saying this
because the children born here they're open minded. They are open minded, and
they understand the issues. And then also parents must be willing to sit down
with their kids to actually talk because some of them because of the cultural
practices, they don't even want to listen to the child to say anything you can't
ask me this question you ca-this is disrespectful? But most of these parents
have never had even one minute opportunity to sit with their kids and tell them
what is what is do-able and what is not acceptable in the African culture. What
is that culture we don't teach it to our kids the children don't our culture is.
So we build institutions that can really, truly address this issue. I think we
We have hope and only hope is our children, people like you and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 32:06
Okay. And do you believe that there's cultural division in the West African
Muslim community?
Mohammed Dukuly 32:11
Of course there is.
Malissa Lamah
How so?
32:13
Mohammed Dukuly 32:14
there is there is there was this going to always be. Yeah the Quran says yeah,
so God says that that division and that diverse view will always exist among us
is going to be there, you know, but how do we use that divsion is what matters.
There is always going to be the various view diversify communities, within the
cultural communities there is, you know, and by the way, the question of
addressing one of the one of the problems we have that I don't like to see
addition to, you know, is is, is tribalism. tribalism is the foundation For the
destruction of our community, yeah, tribalism is a people, people. Some people
think that their tribe is more superior to other tribes. They disdain they treat
people with disdain, with disrespect. My tribe is more superior. And Islam,
Islam says the most important person in the sight of Allah, is the one who fears
God best. It's not the tribe. It's not Arab. It's not white. It's not yellow.
It's not cream. It's just the person who fears Allah, the best is the best. And
so if we are Muslims, that will subside to the Quran, we cannot go and promote
tribal, tribal collections. Tribalism and so and so forth. You can use the
tribe for the unity of the community but you can't use the tribe to divide
people. So the question you ask, yes, of course there is a tribal division, in
our Mn- in our community and that is based on how people feel about themselves.
That (indecipherable) that I just mentioned. So there is. And there's going to
always be, particularly depending on the type of leadership we produce our
community some of us we don't subscribe to tribalism. I don't care about tribe.
I do respect my tribe. I do honor my tribe, but the tribe will not step in my
way in serving the rest of the community, that will not happen. I will not
subscribe myself to anything like that.
Malissa Lamah 34:25
And do you think tribalism, tribalism is the issue because people are ignorant?
Or what do you think tribalism is a thing
Mohammed Dukuly 34:35
ignorance is one thing and then the other thing is the way that the culture had
been practiced. You see, this is in Africa we see in Africa. Madingo mosque,
Fula mosque. Susu mosque, you know, yes, they have this Vai mosque, Vende mosque
you know, all the Limba mosque, Marka mosque I'm just saying it so so. So now
people who are used to this from home and the people came here most people came
here they just gone to work and some people are already old or were old when
they came here. So to get them divorce their mind from that kind of practice it
becomes difficult. So even if it's not too harm, okay, but because the used to
doing it it's like become normal kind of stuff for them, you know, because they
grew up seeing this and they normalize it. They normalize it but islamically
it's wrong is wrong because there should be no no tribal box. That's why we say
Masjid al-Hab? We canât say- we couldâve even posted Abraham name on
there... we say Masjid Abraham in Mecca we say masjid Al - Hab they said
Baytullah, Allahâs house. Because all the messages (indecipherable) the Quran
says (indecipherable) all the mosque belong to Allah. But we canât keep saying
this tribal mosque this tribal and so that is a huge problem. Ignorance is one
thing, but also cultural practices. To put -solidify the kind of practice we
see.
Malissa Lamah 36:23
Okay. And from your point of view, how has Islam changed, for instance, like
your generation compared to now? How is it changed, like practices and other
things like that?
Mohammed Dukuly 36:35
Oh, there's a lot of change that has taken place in my lifetime. When we were
growing up, we didn't see the level of extremist behavior that we see today.
People killing the themselves the private women of learning and why are people
so angry? And and what we see Muslim countries, imposing more harm upon their
own brothers and sisters we didn't see this this was not what it called. We
didn't see this before. And the people become hard hearted. Today to the point
of if Allah has not promise to protect Islam. This was the basis for which Islam
could've have been annihilated completely from the surface of the earth. Because
of the way people have gone to the extreme. The Prophet.. told us.
(indecipherable) I treat you to be aware of manners of exaggeration in the
religion it say don't go there it (indecipherable) it say because it destroy
nations before you it destroy nations before you so there's a lot of changes we
didn't have this kind of fear you traveling before it was not a problem Islam or
some Muslims have been the response the cause you go to the airport we have to
spend hours you could go to the airport five minutes to the boarding time and
just go check in and you gone. Today you have to go two hours if not four hours
in order to be able to catch a flight. So there are a lot of changes that has
taken place. And also even in the practice. Yes, Islam is growing. But but but
but the love, we saw our fathers our mothers demonstrating for their neighbors
for their friends, and show of the care that they had, you know, we don't see
the level of care like that, you know, we become self centered, everything is
about us. It's not about others, you know. So those things are gradually fading
fading away, and so and so forth. You know the practice just in this America yes
Islam is growing. You see people practicing Islam is now magnified in the world
maybe 10 times or 100 times more, yes. But also there are a lot of negative
things associated with it. And because of the behavior of some of the Muslims,
you know, some of the Muslim Yes, there are people who are not Muslim who
provoke Muslims to do what it called something, but you don't have to go to the
extreme to make your point. If you just practice what Islam teaches, I think
that can address the issues of the non Muslims attacking us. But if you leave
the the true practice of Islam, because somebody provoke you and do something,
of course, you're going to have these negative consequences.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
39:37
Mohammed Dukuly 39:37
And so, as a result of that, even as some may say moderate Muslims, what do you
call moderate Muslims? Muslims aren't supposed to be moderate. We supposed to be
balanced, we don't go to the extreme, we are not weak to the point where we
allow people to aggress us but if people are aggressive anyone responding we
should respond in kind, you can't go to the extreme. That's what Islam says but
see what people do. If you go and kill, you Taliban in Afghanistan, who you
killing? If you reach way in Iran, who you killing? Yourbrothers. In Yemen, who
you killing? Your brothers. You never going to have chance to go to the Western
world and create war there, you don't have the capacity. So who are you killing?
So why are you killing people for? Is it because of Islam? I said No, it's
because of political reasons they have their own because if it was Islam we will
not fight. We will not fight because Allah is sufficient for all of us.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
40:35
Mohammed Dukuly 40:36
So it's because of political reasons people are fighting but they claim, they
are fighting in the name of Islam, and that is frightening. That is frightning
for all of us.
Yes. Do you believe that media plays a part in that?
Of course they do. Because one of the one of the problems that we have I don't
know because of political reasons. Look just recently at one of the military
campuses here a white guy, attack and killed people there. And he was never
charged with terrorism. A Saudi guy went and do the same thing perhaps less on
the lesser scale. Oh, it was called a terrorist. So so. And not only that,
because I have sat in forums. The security in the United States. All the
security agencies here in the United States. They are of the opinion. And this
is based on facts. research that they've done, that they white extremism, post
more harm to the United States. Then the al Qaeda, ISIS, all of them combined.
They not even 5% of the threat to the United States, you know and so and so
forth but is that is not highlighted? Why is that so and because sometimes the
media plays a major role in it, only of recently been trying to change a little
bit. But before anything to happen it terrorism, anything that happen is a
muslim terrorist. Christians commit aggression every day even today as I speak
to you in New Jersey. These guys went to the Jewish people Kosher shop where
they can do the what it called they slaughter the meat in a Halal way and they
to walk in there and kill people there. And they are never going to be called
extremists or terrorists. What are terrorism is if you use any form of
aggression to intimidate people is a form of terrorism. And you have gun you
going to the shop the man came down from UHaul truck with a gun and walk in the
shop and start shooting people. And then not only that they're also accusing
them of having also kill another group of people, you know, even if they die in
the process of exchaning gunfire with the police. So this is where we see the
difference, you know, and that is that you're targeting a particular community.
You know, and so the media play a major role in this.
Malissa Lamah 43:22
yes media does play a major role. And in your opinion as Imom, do you think that
Islam has room for both feminism and LGBTQ?
Mohammed Dukuly 43:33
let's address the first question. Yes, Islam. Islam doesn't take away the rights
of women faces. Islam is the religion that came to actually grant freedom to
women. One of the reasons why the disbelievers are fighting the Prophet.... is
because they believe that women in the Arabian peninsula in the world by the
time, that women were property for men. And to the point the men were creating
(indecipherable) for women it mean that means the man could divorced a woman.
But she was not allowed to marry to somebody else. And he's not fully married to
her. So she would hang in a abyss it's not okay to abolish all of that. So the
Prophet... Mohammed was asked about the status of women in Islam. It said we are
equal when they pray the way we pray, they fast we fast. They do the work of
Allah, Allah cannot diminish their reward because they're woman. You know the
response from the Arabs? They said well what is the matter with this man? Women
are our property, you come and you want to make them equal to us? So Islam came
to actually abolish those practices. And one of the things that Islam also did
Is that in the Christian they've always accused women, a woman was the reason
for the downfall of men from heavens. The Quran said no, Adam is the one
that...Adam is the one who disobeyed God and he transgressed. You see how Islam
came and exonerated the woman? Now when it come to your last portion of your
last question. Islam does not support I speak to you frankly, Islam does not
support the the LGBT teaching. Okay. And the gays or lesbians that is Islam does
not have room for is Islam frowns on this. That's the truth. Islam frowns on
this. Having said that, the only thing we can't do number one we could we could
speak against it. Number two, you could also hate it in your heart. But we are
not in a in a society where you can take any action against it. So what I'm
saying here, we have to understand the society in which we live is a society
that is free for everybody. We are not in Saudi Arabia, where Islamic Sharia is
the principal law for the governance of this of the country. Here, that's a
freedom of choice to choose what you want to do or what you want to be. But in
Islamic culture, We are confined to Islamic principles and that Islamic
principle frowns on the issuea of lesbianism so Islam does not support that
islam does not support that. But I also understand that we are not living in the
Sharia Governed country, you have to understand that
Malissa Lamah 47:18
yeah free world.
Mohammed Dukuly
Yeah,
47:19
Malissa Lamah 47:20
okay. This is the last question. Now that you're grown up, and understand Islam
better. What is the meaning of Islam to you? And is it a way of life?
Mohammed Dukuly 47:27
Well, to me, Islam is a way of life. I walk Islam, I Islam mom, I sleep Islam, I
wake up Islam, I eat Islam I greet Islam. I extend my relationship to people
because of Islam. You know, and I spread Islam. I teach Islam, I love Islam. And
Islam is made the principal covenant principle for me as a Muslim is my way of
life. Islam means total submission to the will of the Almighty. And sometimes
people just stop there. What does that mean? It means believing in the Almighty
and subscribing to all of his teachings. So it does not just mean to do a five
daily prayer or give charity or fast Ramadan or go to Hajj or believe in a...It
means everything that Allah and His Prophet to us to do. That what it means
Islam. They Prophet talk about our neighbors, how to be kind to them, when they
are sick, visit them when they are hungry, give them food to eat, when they need
loan, give it to them. When they die attend their federal, so that what Islam
means and that islam means to also find ways to take care of the poor, to take
care of the needy to take the take care other half rest and down truly in the
dust. That is what Islam means. Islam means helping hand to maybe to someone
stranded. Someone in debt someone maybe under custody, somebody who is a
wayfarer, maybe a student who does not have means to help himself or herself,
maybe to pay their tuition in order to (indecipherable) somebody who does not
have means of transportation, somebody who is hungry somewhere, a beggar take
care of them. That is what Islam means, that's what Islam means. Islam means to
be respectful to others Islam means to take care of your family, your spouse,
your children, that what Islam is. Islam means the one who represent the Prophet
Muhammad SAW in the most noble way that what Islam is, it's not just Allah Akbar
(indecipherable) no their all, that,what it means. So if you say I am a Muslim,
a Muslim, the objective right now it means one with home. Everyone is safe.
Yeah, it's not just one who submit to the world. That's what it means. One with
home everyone is safe. And so that's what it means to be a Muslim. You know, so
your neighbor doesn't have to be a Muslim. They have right over you. They don't
have to be a Muslim. And so that is what Islam means.
Malissa Lamah 50:18
Okay, well, that wraps up our interview. Do you have any questions for me?
Mohammed Dukuly 50:26
The only question I have for you what this interview means to you.
Malissa Lamah 50:32
I believe that this interview is very important. Because once we upload it on
the Augsburg website, in the future, other people can see it and see what our
culture was really about. If there's no one to speak for us, they can listen to
this interview and see what Madingo people are about what Islam is really about.
How are West African Muslims in Minnesota are who are they really about? Because
in Minnesota I feel like is mostly about East Africans, and West Africans aren't
really given the voice to talk, so I hope that this interview will help for
people in the future and people now who are in need of it.
Mohammed Dukuly 51:07
Yeah. So I think want to make a closing statement and that statement is that
West African community In Minnesota, they are not liability on the government.
There are, We have doctors, we have nurses, we have healthcare workers. We have
people in the factories in the medical industry. We have males we have, we have
council members, we have people with good NGOs that are not just talking about.
we addressed number of health related issues educational related issues we've
make policies in the school district we change that. And so I agree with you
because most of the time that we just think about a East Africans but West
Africans are Making enormous contribution towards a society they're taxpayers,
they're homeowners, and we have kids here and so and so forth. So, but I believe
that we need to do more of this to be able to give voice to our community.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
52:14
Mohammed Dukuly 52:14
Because in law, what you can't do for yourself, the law can't do for you. The
law, the law is not in a book but you, you have to do for yourself before the
law can speak for you. You know, so I fully agree with you. We have to give
voice to our community and that's why some of us have been doing so we are not
just here because we want to impose on a governor of United States or Minnesota
but we are serving this community. Some of the leaders told me include the
senators, and that if Liberian community or the West African community were to
withdraw today? From the healthcare industry, the hospitals and nursing homes,
senior homes, the entire state would break down it'll collapse almost instantly.
That'll happen and so it means that we are making enormous contribution, you
know, so we need to let the public know that. Yeah, I think this kind of
interview actually gave us the platform to do that. So, thank you so much for
bringing that up. I am always willing to come, maybe some of your students, if
you have some time, you can come You can come in there and let them ask
questions about cultural tradition and experience in Minnesota. I think that
would be a good thing to do.
Malissa Lamah 53:33
Yes. And thank you so much for coming for this interview today.
Mohammed Dukuly
Thank you.
53:36
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Sene... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Senegal. And I learned- I live in Brooklyn Park, Champlin.
Malissa Lamah 0:18
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name at all?
Dienabou M'boup 0:21
My name is derived from the name Zainab. But, um, I guess you can say it's
Africanized, I guess you can say
Malissa Lamah 0:30
Okay and do you have an interesting quick fact about yourself?
Dienabou M'boup 0:36
I skipped first grade.
Malissa Lamah
Why?
Dienabou M'boup
I don't know.
0:38
0:39
Malissa Lamah 0:43
Okay, let's get into the other questions. So as a kid, what was Islam to
you? And when did you realize that you were first like Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 0:51
So that's kind of a hard question. Because I don't really remember but
like, I can say that Okay, when I was a kid, I knew that I was Muslim. I
knew that like I knew it was a part of me I knew I couldn't eat pork I
knew that actually I and I remember I would even have conversations like
in like first grade second grade like oh yeah, I'm Muslim I can't do this
and then like my friends would try to like tell me no you're supposed to
do this But like, I guess you can say I knew I was Muslim but I never
really practiced and like is a thing in the in the West African community.
It's like it like we know we're Muslim but you don't even practice, right?
That's the norm What was the second part?
Malissa Lamah 1:42
The second part was when did you first realize you were Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 1:45
Um, yeah, I always knew I was Muslim. Yeah, I always knew I was Muslim.
Malissa Lamah 1:49
Okay. Where did you go for prayers like what community or tribe do you
spend most of your time with?
Dienabou M'boup 1:54
So when I was younger? ah,
Malissa Lamah 1:58
or up until now
Dienabou M'boup 1:59
I mean, Like now I feel like it was different when I was younger when I
was younger I was like, I guess you can say like I was just I don't know I
wouldn't really pray and like go to people for prayers or whatever just
cuz I don't know I think I kind of just went through life. I just went
with the flow.Whenever I, whenever I needed something or whatever I would
never really go back to like God or like religion or prayers I think I
would just I just nonchalant about it. I guess you can say now. I don't
really go to people for prayers or whatever. I kind of like do it myself
because I feel like my relationship with God is kind of like you know,
with myself and then also, I guess you can say the tribe that I spend most
of my - well my mom is Fulani. But I have a lot of East African friends
or whatever. So Yeah, I have a lot of East African friends and I do hang
out with some like Fulani people but then I also have, I have a lot of I
have a diverse friend group and like the people like I just whenever I
whenever I need prayers now whatever when I go to my friends I just go to
my friends and like I said, I have a very diverse friend group. So, yeah.
Malissa Lamah 3:23
So let me see. So the next one is kind of about your tribe again. Do you
think your cultures/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Dienabou M'boup 3:33
Personally for me? no, cuz I don't let it. But generally, yes And a lot of
like things like when talking about like marriage when talking about like,
just like the way that you're supposed to just be period. Yes, like, for
like, I guess you can say is like islamically like or like even Culturally
like back home like this is the time that like we usually I guess you can
say are like talking about marriage and all that other stuff right? And
but like whenever sometimes like when I bring my mom when I when I'm like
Oh mom I'm talking to this guy she's like Where is he from? I'm like he's
not from any of our own. She's like, well or whatever and I'm just like,
and then but like I remember when I would ask her before she'd be like, as
long as he's Muslim and he's a practicing Muslim and all of this but then
like (indecipherable) the light comes out when when the when reality hits
when I actually bring someone to her but I guess you can say like, just in
like different things like that. For my family. We don't really let it
because like, we're more on the religious side. Obviously, there's like,
the culture and there's tradition. So like, like, another thing is like in
Islam We're not supposed to do superstition- superstition, period. But in
our culture, there's a lot of superstition, so much superstition. And my
mom, like she's gotten to the point where she hates it, but then it's
like, but then it's like it's like, she, what am I trying to say?It's
like, for it's still it's still in the culture. So like I said,
personally, for me and my family, we don't let culture we have our
culture, but we do. But our priority is religion. Okay, and then culture.
Malissa Lamah
5:35
That's good. Okay. Um, this is a general question, since your family
doesn't really have your culture interfere with your religion. But do you
think there's anything that your culture/tribe that you hate? Like the
marriage thing? You know, how they just assume if their not from your
country, that they're bad is there anything that you hate from your
tribe/culture?
Dienabou M'boup 5:57
that's exactly what I hate.That. And I just hate like how like, even
though like, Islam is a big part in my family, like there's still like
those values. Like, oh yeah, you're supposed to respect obviously like, I
can respect and everything but then like it's kind of just like a mutual
you know, exchange I feel and I just feel like a lot of a lot ofparents
don't really give that I just feel like it even though like my mom she
tries her hardest to not let Islam I mean let culture get in the way of
like daily lives in Islam like she Lowkey does. And even my family back
home, like I have a lot of family back home that like I don't know that
like sometimes they see me doing stuff and I'm like, oh, why are they
doing that women shouldn't be you know, doing this or whatever and all of
a sudden, I'm just like, first of all.
Malissa Lamah 7:05
I have a good question about that too. Like feminism, but that's later on,
let's see. This is another one about like your upbringing. Did you always
study Islam? How did you grow interest into the religion? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup 7:19
No, I started in like my junior year. Because up until I started wearing
Hijab my junior year to up until junior year, I wasn't really like,
practicing. I think my mom, I think when my mom started, like my mom
started and then like, I don't, honestly, I couldn't really exactly tell
you why, but I kind of just did. I kind of just started practicing. I
started being interested in my religion. I started you know, like, I think
just like, I started it was step by step for me. It was like, Yeah, baby
steps and like, I don't know, I kind of grew into it. So I think my mom
had a big influence on it because she She started practicing but she never
started really practice. She never really practiced when she was younger
either. So, we weren't really brought up practicing. Like, like I said, we
knew were Muslim. Like we would go to like Eid prayers and everything. And
then, Like, you know, but then like, Islam wasn't really present in my
life until junior year. What was the question again?
Malissa Lamah 8:23
the other one? How did you start to grow interest?
Dienabou M'boup 8:25
Yeah, I think I just I just did Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 8:29
yeah . When did you start wearing the Hijab?
Dienabou M'boup 8:32
Yeah, Junior year. Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 8:36
Let's see. What did you start getting like used to wearing it and like
dressing modest and everything? Was there ever a transition?
Dienabou M'boup 8:43
Yes. So I remember the first day I wore my hijab. It was so scary like, it
was okay. So I lived in Blaine. And then literally the summer I moved to
Champlin Brooklyn Park. I I started wearing the hijab but then I worked.
So I started waiting in the summer and then the first day of school, I was
scared, right? I was super scared. I was like, I don't know how it's gonna
be. I don't know what I'm gonna do and My brother went to school with me
that time so he was a senior and I was a junior, but he wanted to go that
the first day of school he said he wanted to go do like open gym or
whatever i'm like? On my first day of school? He's like, so he left me
right. And I wanted to go to school with him. So like, I felt a sense so I
could feel like comforted like a sense of comfort or like, you know, like
I like feel ease or whatever. But he left me so I remembered I cried. Cuz
I was scared Yeah, I was super scared. And then I went to school and like,
it wasn't as bad as I thought at all. Like, it was like my bad. It was
like, it was it was like normal. Like, I felt like it was like I, I just
remember saying this is not even that bad like I wore it and I went
through it. That very year I like transition into like wearing like, like
more and more and more modest and like I really felt comfortable I really
was like, Look, I'm doing this I'm not doing this for anybody like, like
society nowadays, it's like you have to look a certain way you have to
conform into like society and like, all of that stuff, but I like I was
like building my relationship with God. So like, that wasn't really my
concern, like how society viewed me and everything. So I kind of was just
like, Look, I really don't care. I'm going to do what makes me and what
makes my lord happy. So that's why
Malissa Lamah 10:39
that's very good. Why was it scary? Was it because like, you felt like
people were going to talk about you? Or get bullied
Dienabou M'boup 10:45
Yeah. And it was new. So so like. I didn't know it was new for me. I
didn't know what like I was doing I just did it was just a new experience
for me. And I guess you can say yeah, like, obviously like people Don't
have like - hijab is not like viewed like in the best way it's not like so
I guess you can say that scared me and yeah
Malissa Lamah 11:12
When you started wearing when you your first day of high school right?
Dienabou M'boup 11:17
In the summer but yes. In the summer beforeMalissa Lamah 11:19
okay did you feel like anyone looked at you differently since you started
wearing it or did your relationships stay the same?
Dienabou M'boup
11:28
It was kind of weird because I moved schools And like so I kind of like
made a new group of friends but what I will say is that I definitely from
guys got a sense of respect like yeah they definitely I got a lot more
respect from guys more like I couldn't really tell you specifically but
like they were a lot more respectful when I started wearing the Hijab I
guess you can say but like my friends Like, they would ask me, like, why
are you wearing it, whatever. And I tell them and they were like, Okay,
well, like Like I said, like in high school, like your friends aren't
really like your friends. You know what I mean? Like, they're like your
group, whatever, and they let you leave and then
Malissa Lamah 12:13
Yep, that's so true. Okay, so growing up in American- in America as a
Muslim, How was it for you? What are your, like some of your positive and
negative experiences? What did you learn and how did you How has it
changed your life?
Dienabou M'boup 12:29
Okay, so growing up as a Muslim like, like I said, I never really like it
wasn't I didn't really grow up visibly as a Muslim. But like, I guess you
can say like, later when I started wearing Hijab when people visibly know
like, I personally haven't had anything like really bad happened to me.
I've heard stories like from a lot of like close friends and like people,
but personally nothing has really happened to me. But people do say things
like, oh, like there's a lot of stereotypes. When I wear the hijab, oh,
you speak English or Where are you from? And like, Did your mom make you
wear that or your dad or your brother? Or like, I remember when I worked
at JC Penney. This lady came up to me and she was just like, oh my god,
you speak she asked me a question. And then she's like, Oh my God, your
English is so like, you speaks English so well. And I was, like, my hijab,
like, automatically makes me not able to speak English or whatever. And
like, it's very, it's a lot of ignorance with the hijab, that like a lot
of microaggression I guess you can say, comes with a Hijab. But I guess
you can say like, wearing my hijab. Sometimes like, like I remember when
like, like when some quote unquote terrorist attack happens. Or like, when
like, like, or like Donald Trump. Donald Trump's election I remember like
sometimes I do feel scared wearing the hijab. So I'm just like, Look, I
need to be cautious. I need to be safe and like sometimes like my mom even
tells me She's like, Look, you're a black Muslim and you're a woman, you
especially your hijab, like you need to be careful. That's why she's kind
of like, strict on where I where she's very lenient, but she's also pretty
strict on where I go and like making sure that I'm not out too late.
Because I'm a black Muslim woman and like all these like attacks like
there's obviously there's people out there that hate me just for - like
Yes, just for the just for the hijab. So
Malissa Lamah 14:42
did you ever feel like you were living a double life This can be like your
family.
Dienabou M'boup
Hannah Montana?
Malissa Lamah
14:47
14:48
Versus Your friend group? Yes. Or like school and your daily life?
Dienabou M'boup 14:56
Not really, not really just because Not really just because I, for me like
my values like was it especially with Islam like I always like it was in
Islam like honestly is like a honesty is a big like thing. And like I
didn't really like wanna I didn't really like like with my parents and my
friend group like I didn't really like I would always tell my mom like
where I was going or all of that but I guess you can say I live a double
life when I'm talking to white people. But I don't know if there's, like,
with my hijab? Yeah, but I guess you can say like, you have to, I guess
you didn't have my hijab as a part of it, but like, because you have to
kind of like, I feel like sometimes and I shouldn't like I feel I get mad
at my Self when I do this and I shouldn't but like sometimes I feel like I
have to make them comfortable be into like show them like that i'm i'm not
a threat because automatically in their head like oh yeah you're you know
you wear hijab can be a threat or whatever so like, showing that like,
like being extra nice being like, you know, I guess that has to do with
like me being a black woman you know what I mean? So, like the stereotypes
that are put on us I have to prove those stereotypes wrong I guess you can
say
Malissa Lamah
yes.
16:28
Dienabou M'boup 16:29
So in that aspect a little bit of a double life quote unquote
Malissa Lamah 16:32
Yeah. Going along with that aspect Do you believe that like those two
identities ever affect like your daily life at all? Like with the white
people for example, do you feel like that doesn't go along with how you
are as a person. You have to fake it?
Dienabou M'boup 16:50
Yeah, like I said making people come- Making people comfortable and being
extra nice is the big is the biggest thing because like even sometimes
when I'm on the phone or whatever I'm just like I have to you know, do my
white voice or whatever now I don't want to say white voice but like, you
know like, press I don't know you know what I mean that that voice like
you have to code switch I guess you can say. And then I and then sometimes
like I remember I was making an appointment at the hospital and then when
I went there I'm like oh my god I wonder if they're going to be like oh
wow surprise.
Malissa Lamah 17:28
Is This the same person?
Dienabou M'boup 17:29
Yeah, so sometimes so yeah.
Malissa Lamah
17:32
Okay. Did you feel comfortable saying back to school? Did you feel
comfortable practicing Islam in school? Do you ever feel out of place or
was it difficult? Like, just being yourself in school?
Dienabou M'boup 17:45
I , yes, it was a little difficult just because. Just because. Just
because like, I feel like sometimes like whenever they talked about like,
ooh 9/11 Yeah, like Just other stuff. Like I even remember that, like,
sometimes I felt like I had to be that voice or like sometimes like, or
like people will look at me or whatever, it's the same thing. Like when
would they would talk about slavery being the only black person in class.
And they all look at you because oh, they're talking about slavery so
like, I guess you can say that. And I remember when there was an attack,
like, made by people who are quote, unquote Muslim. I didn't want to call
them Muslim. But um, they like, my teacher came up to me and he, he was
like, What do you think about the attacks? Because I was the only Muslim
person or whatever. Yeah. And like, that made me feel weird. And I'm like,
I don't like I don't like the fact that like, the whole, like, the whole
idea of Islam will be put on me just because like, I'll be the only Muslim
in class or like, you know,
Malissa Lamah 18:54
yeah, that's, that makes sense. I went through the same thing. I
understand what you mean by quote unquote Muslim but can you just go into
depth about what you believe is what does that mean to you?
Dienabou M'boup 19:05
Well obvious what is what is me saying quote unquote or what does Islam
mean?
Malissa Lamah 19:09
No what Does you saying quote unquote
Dienabou M'boup 19:10
Um, I guess you can say that like, obviously the media people like
tarnishing Islam's name have ruined I guess you can say Islam and what it
is people it's kind of just like the media like puts out these things that
make you fearful of Muslims and all of this other stuff and like I hate
having to speak about it but I have to at the end of the day but like I
feel like I do it all the time but like Islam is not what the media says
in like if you feel that Islam is the way the media is the media projects
it then you're just I guess you can say an ignorant person that might be
biased but it's it's it's just a Ignorance because you don't want to look
into you're not looking into what Islam is like Islam values like like I
feel like this is so overused but like one when when if you kill a person
it's as if you kill the Prophet I think said it but if you kill a person
is as if you kill all of humanity and if you actually I don't quote me I
don't know where it's from Islam it's in the Quran and if you help one
person as if you save a life it's as if you save a whole humanity and then
people bring up light like text like in the Quran it says, oh, because
there are texts in the Quran that say oh what does it kill them where you
find them and that text with the Quran? It the Quran didn't not come down
In one` book it came as parts and certain certain whatchamacallit like
certain certain at like certain instances certain time not it's in the
same time period but like over the course of like I think it was like 25
years yeah yep 25 years up until the from the time that Prophet got his
revelation to the time when he died the Quran like came in pieces and then
it was put together so like different times were different verses came
down where it was needed. So that verse specifically was and also with the
Quran and you have to the Quran you can't take one verse and be like okay
that's what it means you can't take it as face value. That's why in Islam
it says seek knowledge. Islam says seek knowledge Islam says read like,
like learn like the importance of knowledge is there. So is important to
learn why the verses the certain verses came down Why can't why why was
there so like, that verse was like for for they were in war and like they
were being persecuted they were being. So there's a lot of context to it.
You can't take one verse and then twist it. It's like twisting someone's
word you can't take so you can't take like from a speech and then take one
you know one quote from a speech and then like, you're going to hear the
whole speech especially like a verse like that.
Malissa Lamah 22:30
Okay Do you believe that from what you just said, Do you believe that's
why Islam is looked in a negative way because of people just
misinterpreting the texts
Dienabou M'boup 22:42
yeah 100% the media I honestly don't know I couldn't tell you why. I guess
you can say it's cause because people are minorities and like, I don't
know. It's a I don't know honestly don't know why but like, obviously
people, they don't want us to be great, they don't want Muslims to be
great I don't know so obviously there's going to be those those haters
there's going to be those like if the media Yeah, ignorant people if the
media makes it puts Islam into a certain light, obviously people are going
to believe it. Yeah. If the only way that people are learning from Islam
is Fox News or like, see it, you know?Then obviously you're gonna be
you're gonna be ignorant you're gonna be you know,
Malissa Lamah 23:26
yeah, cuz media does play a big part when it comes to situations like this
Okay, so back to life. One thing I had an issue growing up with was my
experience with like, African Americans versus Africans. I really want to
touch upon that. Although we're both like black
Dienabou M'boup
and black.
23:47
Malissa Lamah 23:48
Yeah. both black and some of them are Muslim. so we both Muslim. Why is it
that we aren't able to like coexist all the time with black americans?
Dienabou M'boup 23:55
That is a good question. I think that's just that is a very good question.
I think that's just like, people. It's ignorance and like, even like, even
like our very own parents be saying, like, and it is all sad. And even
sometimes we fall into it too. But it's kind of just like, I think that's
just like a sense of like, we're comfortable with our own culture, and we
think we're better. It's just like, it's definitely a culture thing. Like,
that's why that's where tribal tribalism comes from. That's where racism
is from. It's just I think, I guess you can say people thinking that
they're better than a certain type of, you know, certain yeah
Malissa Lamah 24:38
so yeah, people just thinking that they're better and everything. Did you
ever experience like, bullying like, I don't know, for for me personally.
Reason why growing up. I didn't like black Americans was because I used to
get bullied by them a lot. And I felt like at my elementary school, they
should have been my friends since we're both black. Yeah. They used to
call me African booty scratcher.
Dienabou M'boup
Yeah. Same Same
24:59
Malissa Lamah 25:00
Did you ever have? Yeah, Have you ever been situation like that or
anything else that made you to not like, not like them or think
differently of them.
Dienabou M'boup 25:08
Not even not like them. But like, obviously like, I remember I would have
friends. I'd be like, Oh yeah, I'm not African. I'm like black American.
I'm not African. I'm black or whatever. Now that will obviously like pissn
me off. But like, I guess you can say me wearing the hijab. Like it's
different because people automatically associate hijab with Somali. So I
get called Somali a lot and it pisses me off. And I remember one time I
was at, I was at I was at my community I was at North Hennepin. And they
had like this African they had like this club thing and the African
African club table there were the club was tabling, right. The African
table was playing African music, me or West African music me I'm obviously
what from West Africa, yeah. This Liberian girl told me I forgot what I
said. And she said, You're not West African. And I was like, holdup,
holdup Back up First of all Senegal is even more West than Liberia.
Senegal is even more Guinea is even more West than Liberia? How can you
tell me just because of my Hijab? Yeah, that I'm not that I'm West
African. So that was really, it really annoyed me that like, my West
African identity was being erased because, yes, because of my hijab, but
even but I am because of my hijab it's because of her ignorance, you know?
And like, yeah, that really pissed me off. What else? I'm, like I said,
I've had a lot of instances where people are like, oh, Are you Somali? Are
you? Are you like West Africans can't be Muslim or wear hijab or whatever.
I remember my cousin even told me oh yeah you dress like a somali or
whatever, I'm like man, I just wear my hijab and I cover okay.
Malissa Lamah 26:29
I'm, just living life. But yeah, that's people can be very ignorant when
they see like, a lot of people when they see the hijab they just associate
with Somalia or East Africans in general which is they change that
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
Malissa Lamah
27:24
27:24
But let's see next question. Does the culture division affect your life?
Oh, okay, so this is connecting back to the black versus black question.
Does this cultural division affect your life any shape or form like do you
feel like because you're West African you can't hang out with these type
of people. These are people don't want to be friends with you because
you're West African
Dienabou M'boup 27:48
sometimes, black Americans sometimes just because I don't know. I feel
like I have to act a certain way or whatever and like it's annoying
because it's just annoying because he is like, you can't be like who you
are. But then like, honestly, I'm a I'm a friendly person. I don't care
who you are, regardless of your race where you're from anything.
Malissa Lamah 28:15
Okay, so now we just continue up the first part of this next question is,
have you had any bad experience or been targeted for being African and/or
Muslim? This can be like stereotypes or micro aggressions at all.
Dienabou M'boup 28:31
like, I've just, like I said, I haven't experienced like, anything bad.
Yeah, but like, I I'll microaggressions I go through it every day. Like I
said, people thinking that I people think that I don't know how to speak
English, or like people like, like, in class, people mistaking me for
like, another hijabi or like, you know, so like, yeah, and people just
asking me like, stupid question. Seems like me being African or whatever.
Have you ever seen a lion? I think every I think every African has
experienced this
Malissa Lamah
Yeah I have,
29:10
Dienabou M'boup 29:11
or like everyone overcome continent of Africa that has moved here. people
asking me if I speak African people asking me if I know another African so
I guess you can say my microaggression I've had a lot more microaggression
on me being African once I know that I'm African or whatever. Yeah. But
um, me being a hijabi people thinking that I don't speak English. I like
(indecipherable) If people I remember. I remember. This girl asked me
She's like, so why do you wear that? Does your dad make you wear it or
whatever? I like, you know, they just asked me like, specifically if my
dad makes me Me, me makes me wear it or whatever. And I'm like,yeah, and
like, Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 29:54
Why do you think like they think that way. What do you think that people
ask you about that?
Dienabou M'boup 29:57
Like I said stereotypes? There's a stereotype That's been put on Islam the
stereotypes that have been Yeah, just just stereotypes Really That's
literally what it is. From the media from. Yeah, media.
Malissa Lamah
30:16
Oh Media, How does your family feel about once again black Americans or
like not your from your tribe? Do they dislike them? Do they like them? Or
do they just not care?
Dienabou M'boup 30:28
They don't care and my parents are very family friendly. Like, my my
brother isn't like hangs out with alot of East Africans, like all his
friends are East Africans. I think he's eventually gonna marry an East
African. I know right. And then, also, like for me, like I said, I was
saying before before my mom called like, I'm a very friendly person. Like,
if you come if you come to me and you're cool or whatever, I will be cool
with you. If you expect you if you respect that fact that I wear a hijab
if you respect that I'm Muslim if you respect that like like you just
respect me and I don't like conflict i'm not i'm not gonna I'm not going
to like not like you because you're a certain race
Malissa Lamah
yeah
31:16
Dienabou M'boup 31:18
sometimes I do sometimes I am that way with some like non POC yeah or
whatever and just because they made me kind of uncomfortable but like
other than that like I like I'm friendly but like so like i like i said i
have a very diverse friend group I have friends from our from Asian
friends likes like Southern South Asian friends. I have East African
friends I have West African friends. I have South American friends I have
like friends all over.
Malissa Lamah 31:48
Yeah, it's good to have a diverse friend group
Dienabou M'boup 31:50
Yeah. So if you accept me, I'll accept you.
Malissa Lamah 31:53
Okay. Let's see from your, friend group Have you learned anything about
them that really interests you at all?
Dienabou M'boup 32:01
like, I guess you say like learning for me. I really like learning other
cultures. That's why in Global Studies that's why My major is Global
studies more global health but like, it's pretty interesting like learning
like, because my friends a lot of my friends are more Ethiopian then so I
have a lot of Ethiopian friends and learning like just their culture, how
they do their weddings I've been I've been to like a lot of East or Oromo
Ethiopian red-weddings. Just seeing how they do it, seeing how seeing the
similarities and like how we do it, seeing how they practice Islam, seeing
how just seeing all of that is really really cool. yeah, yeah,
Malissa Lamah 32:42
okay. Do you think that culture makes us important in life?
Dienabou M'boup
32:45
Yeah. 100% because it makes you very, it makes you an open minded person.
It makes you it just makes you just, I guess you could say yeah, makes you
more open minded and not ignorant. I think it's really important to learn
other people's cultures. And it gives a sense of understanding it takes
away arrogance of like your own culture.
Unknown Speaker 33:11
Yeah. Okay. Let's see.
Malissa Lamah 33:15
Do you know any from on top of your head Do you know any differences
between Islam now and Islam from like previous generations? So like, let's
talk about like teenagers how we act now and how you think our parents
acted when they were teenagers?
Dienabou M'boup 33:30
Ooooh. Okay, so I think it's different for like, I don't know how it is
for like East Africans, but like West Africa. I think like I said. I don't
know it's kind of that's it's kind of this kind of a hard question just
because a lot of our parents didn't really even especially my friends.
They didn't try. Like they obviously their parents were like religious
like my grandfather. Both grandfathers are really religious and like, They
both they both like value Islam, but my parents grew up, they grew up in
like a culture where like, we went out they had fun. You know, like when
you're young, you want to have fun. You want to experience things. And
like, and it's also different to it from like Guinea and Senegal, because
I guess you can say Guinea is a less religious country Senegal, like
Senegal like Islam is a really big part.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
34:24
Dienabou M'boup 34:25
it's a it has a bigger I guess you can say presence than it does in
Guinea. So I guess you can say the way that they grew up was kind of
different. So they had it, like they had their values, like the Islamic
values, but I guess you could say their actions kind of, I guess you could
say contradict the values, I guess.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
34:41
Dienabou M'boup 34:41
But like they had it held an importance and I think that was, I guess you
could say I think that's for both of them. Like, I guess you can say now,
it's kind of the same but I think like with the rise of like, atheism, and
like philosophy and all that, I guess you can say that's why it's
different now.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
Dienabou M'boup
34:57
34:57
like a lot of different ideals and like Different ways of thinking and
all of that. And I think that also the way that they grew up like they
grew up in a in a society where like Islam was there and like they knew
that Islam was there even though they didn't practice they knew the
importance of Islam, but I guess you can say here the ideal is that like
you're kind of a free thinker and they see like a lot of like society. I'm
not gonna say a lot of society doesn't agree with Islam but a lot of I
guess you can say that I can I guess you can say that. Islam is like like
I guess like stuff that I guess you can say don't agree with Islam is like
a glorified and like beautified I guess you can say like drinking smoking,
like it's big, like, a lot of people do it. So like, they're obviously
going to question and they were like, why doesn't my religion do this? You
know what I mean? So, yeah, I guess you could say that aspect is there.
Malissa Lamah 36:00
Okay, talking about drinking and smoking and all of that that that's a
great input because next question is also about it, have you seen like
changes of I learned this in class on campus versus at home? A lot of kids
in Islam when they move on campus, they have this sense of freedom and
they start acting
(incoherent)
differently. They were the hijab, but it's still party every night and
drink. So have you seen that at all? Like, since you started college
Dienabou M'boup 36:28
for me, no, yeah, because I before college, I had, I started practicing
and I like my parent- even though like my mom had an influence on me
practicing for me my values and everything. I feared God than I fear my
more than I fear my mom like so those obviously like I'm like, my mom is
obviously like I'm not perfect. I still do stuff but then what I'm saying
is like I for for me from the get go. I didn't want to Dorm. Cause I knew
that I didn't want to be around like, all that, honestly, it would be a
fun experience. Like when I was younger Oh my God, I wanted to dorm. But I
was just like, Look, I'm not trying to be around influence because I know
mys`elf and I know I'm, I'm a very influence, I can get very influenced.
I'm not a person that like, you know, I'm very success- susceptible I
guess you can say to peer pressure and all of that. So like, I'm not
staying on campus. For me, like I said, For me personally, but I know so
many people that have those went wild when they got their freedom. Yeah,
I'm here like, my parents and I here so guess what? But for me, it's not
even that my parents are not here. It's like, God is always watching me
you know mean and that's what scares me. You know what I mean? So,
Malissa Lamah 37:50
yeah, that is a big issue. I've noticed that too, in college that a lot of
people just have that sense of freedom
Dienabou M'boup 37:55
go wild, because and it's cuz and it's because and
it on the parents just because the parents kind of
I guess you can say like, if you don't do this, if
mad or if they don't really teach you, why are you
I also Do kind of blame
blame like, made Islam,
you do this God will be
practicing? They don't
teach you. Like, why is the importance of Islam in people's life they just
teach you this is haram. This is haram this is not haram. You know what I
mean? Like, and the word Haram is thrown around like, so, you know, like,
I don't know. So all of that, I guess you can say and then. Yeah, I forgot
what I was going to say, so. Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 38:37
yeah. Parents don't teach like they just teach this surface level, they
don't into depth
Dienabou M'boup 38:41
surface level and then when, they exactly and then when they get to, when
they get to college, they're like, they. So they fear their parents more
then when they do that. They fear their parents more than they fear God
and they didn't really build that relationship that was needed when they
were younger, so they could like have those morals and have those like
boundaries when they get to college. So they're just like, Look, my mom's
not here. I'm not about to get in trouble or whatever, cuz they associated
like when I do something back when I do- when I did something back then I
got in trouble with my parents I didn't see anything or God or whatever,
you know. So then likely Yeah, now they're like, Look, I'm gonna do this.
You know?
Malissa Lamah 39:24
Yeah. Okay, so let me see this is going back to like West Africans and
East Africans. Do you feel like West African Muslims and East Africa
Muslims and any other like, type of people lack connection?
Dienabou M'boup 39:43
Sometimes Yes. But like I said, a lot of my friends are, yeah, East
African. But like, one thing is like that, like sometimes that like, I
just feel like people forget. I just don't like the erasure of Islam, the
presence of Islam in West Africa, like there are a lot of Muslims in West
Africa and it's annoying because like I said, people question if people
have been asked if I converted, I've been asked if, and like I said, it's
like, microaggression it's just like, it's irritating. No hearing that
constantly hearing all of that. It's like, when people don't when people
don't realize that, like, they're like, you're not the only muslim in the
world, You're not the only Muslim country in the world, you know, I mean,
like, most of us, Guinea and my Guinea and Senegal, Guinea is a, I think,
like 90-80 something 87% Muslim and Senegal and 90, like a 2% Muslim
country, like, I probably am, like, really off on those numbers, but it's
in those percentiles, like it's really high in both countries. The
presence of Islam, so.
Malissa Lamah 40:58
Okay. Have you ever felt tempted or wanted, like to do something, but you
can't because of your religion?
Dienabou M'boup 41:05
Yes, but that's part I guess you can say that. For me. I know that's part
of the religion. Like I know that's part I like
Malissa Lamah
41:12
temptations yeah
Dienabou M'boup 41:13
Yeah, temptations like obviously like, say you're on a on a diet or
whatever, like you're obviously gonna be tempted to do, you know, just
because I'm tempted to do something doesn't mean is good for me like
there's a quote in a Islam just because just because you want something
doesn't mean it's good, or something that you want might not be good for
you.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
41:13
Dienabou M'boup 41:32
and something that you don't want might be what's good for you. So like,
I'm not so it doesn't really bother me like obviously like sometimes like
when I'd be like, Oh, I want to do like my hair or whatever I want to do
like, you know, like I used to wear I used to wear a lot of weave girl.
And I tell you I when I say I miss it,
Malissa Lamah
ooh,
41:51
Dienabou M'boup 41:51
I miss it. I miss it. Yeah, so like obviously that and like, I guess you
can say not like major things like Oh, and obviously like, not like major
things like smoking and drinking like those stuff never even back then
when I didn't practice I thought it was disgusting. Yeah, even though it's
all around me I thought it was disgusting. And I thank God because like I
said, I'm a very influential person, like if I was even started so I guess
to say to say all of that. So, for me, it wasn't really that big of a deal
that I that I was tempted because I knew like, I know that I'm being re-.
I'm being re- in Islam, you're rewarded for for something. So say you want
to do like, say a sin like you're rewarded for not doing the sin that you
wanted to do.
Malissa Lamah 42:43
Yeah, thats true.
Dienabou M'boup 42:44
That's why I really didn't trip about it
Malissa Lamah 42:47
Okay, next one. Did you ever want to take your hijab off or not want to
keep it on? Or why didn't you take it off?
Dienabou M'boup 42:56
Very briefly. Just because, I'm sorry the sun is in my face. Very briefly
just because like I said, having certain hairstyle like, Oh, yeah Ugh I
want it I wish I can get you know like 30 inches you know 40 whatever, all
of that, like, I wish it but then like, what helped me what let me what
had me what helped me keep it on is like, my love for God and like knowing
that like for me with Islam I just I know that the world hasn't done me
the world hasn't been the best to me is like the world is very corrupt
there's a lot of like chaos society is not the best and so I know that
like if there's for me it's like if, like if I can't if I can't if society
and all this stuff won't make me happy. Like I know truly in I've
experienced that like, for me, God has made me really happy. Like,
whenever I've talked to him whenever I pray whenever I do all of that,
like I feel happy when I like, practice. So like, I know that like,
whenever if I took my hijab off or if I like did this then it would just
be temporary. Yes. That's what it was for me.
Malissa Lamah 44:20
That's true. Okay. And your opinion does Islam have room for feminism and
LGBTQI?
Dienabou M'boup 44:30
Okay so a two part question.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
44:32
Dienabou M'boup 44:32
Um, first part feminism. 100%. Yeah, I think feminism today is very like
skewed. I think skewed as a word. I think feminism today. The reason why
is because feminism today is like, you have choice to do what you want to
do. And being oppressed. One First of all, Islam came and this is another
topic that I hate talking about because I feel like I have to prove to
people Yeah, but Islam came down in a time where like, women had no rights
at all like they were being buried alive. They had no rights to
inheritance. They were all of that right? But then Islam came down and
said women have rights women, you know what I mean? There's a whole
there's a whole chapter in the Quran, called the surah, the third, the
third chapter? I think if I'm not mistaken, second or third chapter the
Quran is is called Surah Nisa. And that's Surah of the women. Yeah, the
whole chapter or whatever. So like, there's a whole and that's a really
long one it's long, but um, that and like also. What was I saying, also I
feel like feminism today is like, take off your hijab, but in reality
feminism is for is-Feminism really was for you to have a choice for you to
do what you want me I choose to wear my hijab. So why can't I choose to
wear my hijab? Why does me taking off my clothes? Or I like wearing less
than less. That's what feminism you know, like free the nipple or
whatever, like, why are you? Why are you at the end of the day society
wants you to wear less and less clothes at the end of the day at the end
of the day. So who's really conforming to society? Who's really being a
feminist and taking their stand and stand for their rights and who they
want to be in? who they are? I guess you can say, yeah. Oh, and LGBTQ?
Malissa Lamah 46:43
Yeah, but let's talk about the feminism. I read in class. I didn't even
think about this but we read about how some people actually, it's a,
what's the word? I don't know the word right now, but some people actually
argue about having female Imams and I actually never crossed My mind
because I'm so used to having a male imam in our culture.
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
47:03
Malissa Lamah 47:04
So what do you think? Like what's your stand on that? Do you think female
imams are allowed?
Dienabou M'boup 47:07
I've never been asked that question?
Malissa Lamah 47:08
Yeah, I never thought of that.
Dienabou M'boup 47:11
Um, I've obviously I've never been asked that question personally but I'm
obviously I've had conversations about it and I guess you can say like, a
like in a Islam. Like, I don't want to answer this question. In Islam I
guess you can say like theres roles. Yeah, you guess I guess you can say
and I guess you could say the role of the male is like, you know what I
mean, like that's how Allah made it. Yeah, I guess you can say something
like
Malissa Lamah 47:40
It's just like that. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about this Islam have room
for LG for LGBTQ
Dienabou M'boup 47:47
Oh, and back. Can I actually.
Malissa Lamah 47:49
Yeah finish it
Dienabou M'boup 47:49
So for that question too? I there's also I feel like with that people,
people have so much like Okay with that, I think that has a lot to do with
okay now I'm hot that has a lot to do with, like equality, we went well
over well over I know right? That has a lot to do with like equality and
everything and Islam at the end of the day like Islam like men and women
are created equal. They're created equal as in like, if you do a good
deed, you'll get rewarded the same. It's not like, oh, you're a woman,
you're not gonna, you're, you're a woman, like, whatever. So there's
things that men, there's things that only women get rewarded for it. And
there's things that only men get rewarded for. And that has a lot to do
with our biology. Like, women, we get we have, we have children, women, we
get our periods, women, you know what I mean? There's different things and
there's different rules. That doesn't mean that Allah doesn't view us. Or
God doesn't view us in a different way. You know what I mean, in different
positions, obviously women, it's important for women to go get educated.
It's important for men to get educated. It's important for, like, at the
end of the day, there's rules that Allah set out in that like that. Like
there's obviously there's there's differences, but we're still equal.
Malissa Lamah 49:18
Yes, understandable. Okay, now, does Islam have room for LGBTQ? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup
49:24
So for Muslims, obviously in Islam? It's not really it's loo- it. I don't
want to say it's looked down upon
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
49:36
Dienabou M'boup 49:36
It is looked down upon, and I don't even want to sugarcoat it. It is
looked down upon but that's Islam's belief at the end of the day. Islam
doesn't say that we can go terrorizes people bash these people. kill these
people like that is away from it that Islam says lankum de-Theres in a
Surah and I forgot. I think is -Its a Surah I'm blanking out but Lakum
Deenukum Waliya Deen, that means your religion is for you. My religion is
for me. Yeah. So basically you your belief is for you. And my belief is
for me, right? So, I'm gonna respect you. Right? I'm going to respect you
and what you do. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna whatchamacallit I'm not
gonna hate you for what you do. It's like drinking. I'm not say, I don't
like I'm not going to talk to you because you drink. Yeah, I'm not gonna
say because you do this, this and this. If you're like, just as you have
your belief, I have mine. I'm not asking you to pray five times a day. I'm
not asking you to believe in Islam. You know what I mean? Imma do me and
you do you you know what I mean?
Malissa Lamah 50:49
Okay, so last question. Now that you're grown up and understand Islam
better, what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life for you?
Dienabou M'boup 50:56
100% 100% obviously I have so for me Islam has Islam has - plays a big
role in the way in who I am. And that's way that's how Islam should be, I
guess you can say. But for me, it definitely has a big role. It definitely
plays a big role in who I am and like my daily things like sometimes like
I have to like find out where I need at work- place I can eat, I need to
pray, there's some aspects where I need to like, be careful about where I
need to eat. There's like different things that I need to do. So like 100%
it controls who I am and not control. That's such a bad word. That's a bad
word, but no, it influences who I am and I try to be the best muslim that
I can be. I try to be the best person that I can be. What was- What waswhat was say that question one more time?
Malissa Lamah 51:55
Let me see it was now that you've grown up and understand Islam better
what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life?
Dienabou M'boup 52:03
Yes, it's definitely a way of life because like Islam, like in the Quran
says do this, do this or do this, or whatever says Be like this Be patient
be be kind be you know, what I mean yeah they smile and all of that so
obviously I try to do those things and like, because honestly like I feel
like Islam like Islam like it's such a beautiful religion and like when I
see like people that are like devout in Islam,
Malissa Lamah
yeah
52:31
Dienabou M'boup 52:32
They are the they're the best people that I know, the best people that I
know. And like there's obviously like good people who are not Muslim, or
whatever, but then like, for me, the best people who I know and like I
wish more common like I just see like, you can just see like in the corner
and it just tells you it just literally the Qur'an is like a book to like,
the way you should live your life.So I guess you can say, that was a weird
answer, but
Malissa Lamah 53:02
it's good. You're doing good. Okay, so we're basically done with other
questions. Do you have any questions for me at all?
Dienabou M'boup 53:10
How are you liking the class?
Malissa Lamah 53:11
It's good, It's really good class. It's fun. I have to finish this and
give a presentation about it. Okay, I'm so glad you could help me. Thank
you so much. And yeah, that's it. Yay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Faruk Ahmed 0:01
This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22
2019. I'm here with..
Ahmed Nur. 0:13
Ahmed Nur.
Faruk Ahmed 0:15
and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little
bit more about yo... Show more
Faruk Ahmed 0:01
This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22
2019. I'm here with..
Ahmed Nur. 0:13
Ahmed Nur.
Faruk Ahmed 0:15
and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little
bit more about yourself?
Ahmed Nur. 0:23
Well, I'm Augsburg alum. Minneapolis native. lived here most of my life. I'm a Somali American.
Born in Somalia. Grew up most of my life in Minnesota in and around Minneapolis.
Faruk Ahmed 0:45
You're born in Somalia?
yeah exactly yeah, the capital city of Mogadishu
Mogadishu. Do you have any? Any memories? how old were you?
Ahmed Nur. 0:59
well i was in '93 so I really dont remember I left when I was around three or four years old? So I
was my earliest memories were of America.
Faruk 1:09
Okay, so 1996 three year old Ahmed, straight to Minneapolis or?
Unknown Speaker 1:15
no, by way of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I lived there for like six months, my family. My uncle and
his wife sponsored us. Me and my mom, my grandpa and other family members. live there for
six months, three years within we moved to Minneapolis as a family.
Faruk Ahmed 1:33
Do you? You were four and a half, maybe five when you were in green bay?
Ahmed Nur. 1:40
I was around like four years old.
Faruk 1:42
Do you have any memories, were you living with your uncle?
Ahmed Nur. 1:46
Yeah. Oh, we were all living with my uncle.
Faruk 1:49
Were there any other kids around your age?
Ahmed Nur. 1:50
Yeah, he had two children. Two girls one was a year older than me and one year younger than
me.
Faruk Ahmed 1:58
Okay.
Ahmed Nur. 1:59
that was it for the children. I was the only other child. actually me and my cousin came along
from my somalia and lived with them too.
Faruk 2:08
So you and your cousin. Do you have siblings that were born here?
Ahmed Nur. 2:11
Yeah All my siblings have four siblings. younger than me. I have 3 brothers and one sister.
Faruk Ahmed 2:18
Oh, what are their ages?
Ahmed Nur. 2:20
My brother Habib, he is 23. my brother Nurdin He's 19. my sister Amira is 18 and my youngest
brother Omar is 13
Faruk 2:33
you guys are pretty close to in age for the most part.
Ahmed Nur. 2:36
Yes, like, three ish years gap between everyone
and they were all born in Minneapolis?
Yep.
Faruk Ahmed 2:46
Okay. So what was you came to Minneapolis at what five ish, four?
Ahmed Nur. 2:51
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 2:52
Okay. What was your early life like, here?
Ahmed Nur. 2:56
early life.. just uh your typical Household nothing different. We lived in a community of a bunch
of different groups, but predominantly Somali and Hispanic people was around the
neighborhood.
Faruk Ahmed 3:18
Okay. south minneapolis?
Ahmed Nur. 3:19
Yeah, south minneapolis .
uh Yeah. So I, what was the question?
Faruk 3:27
Just your experience from when you first moved to me over the years since you're five?
Ahmed Nur. 3:31
Yeah,
Faruk Ahmed 3:32
yeah.
Ahmed Nur. 3:32
I remember having like, like going to a head start. For example. I remember having I think I had
maybe one teacher who was white, but the rest were all like either she African American,
Hispanic or Asian.
Faruk Ahmed 3:48
interesting. This is head start?
Ahmed Nur. 3:50
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 3:50
Okay. Where do you go to head start? Do you remember?
Ahmed Nur. 3:54
the one that was on by Martin Luther King park? That one.. uhh
Faruk Ahmed 4:01
On Nicollet.
Ahmed Nur. 4:02
Kind of by nicollet. Yeah. Yeah. Like down down 42nd
Faruk Ahmed 4:06
Like 42nd. yeah.
Faruk 4:11
interesting. So from head start to kindergarten, what was, did you just live in the same place?
Ahmed Nur. 4:22
around the neighborhood two times we lived on Pillsbury and some of the apartment complex.
One of my brothers was born there. And then we move to the Albright townhomes that's kind of
like half a block away and does more of a predominantly somali neighborhood because it's
closer to a somali mall. at least it was on the rise. Then it wasn't as much as higher
concentration as it is now.
Faruk Ahmed 4:53
Do you, so what was what was school like for you? So we kind of talked about head start, you
had a pretty diverse, Your teachers, the teachers were pretty diverse is not just the
predominantly white profession. Did that change as you went throughout school?
Ahmed Nur. 5:14
Kind of Yeah, so I went to from kindergarten I went to whittier actually. And I don't remember,
like kindergarten, like first grade teachers. But I assume they're white. But remember for 100%
my third grade teacher, she's, she's black. She's African American and she's one of my favorite
teachers when I was younger, she's the name is Miss Jenkins or something. And she's just very
nice person as this kind of stuck with me throughout the years.
Faruk Ahmed 5:48
were the other teachers Not nice?
Ahmed Nur. 5:49
no they were nice but she's different and it seemed like she cared a little bit more maybe she
could like, relate to us like students of color, maybe a little more.
Faruk Ahmed 5:58
were they a little nicer to you and to students of color or just nicer in general?
Ahmed Nur. 6:03
in general, because the whole like most of our class was like what he was a very diverse school
also is a lot of different groups of people from different people from African nations, African
American people, different people from different parts of Asia. A lot of Hispanic people, like I
said, from Central and South America so its a big, I wouldn't say melting pot, like a big just
diverse.
Faruk 6:37
Yeah, so schools are usually you know, they preach diversity, and some of them really are even
though you guys are fairly young. What was the interaction like between students?
Unknown Speaker 6:48
I remember fondly like my first like, my first best friend was Hispanic guy, and Jose. me and him
were really good friends. I remember having Like really close friends of all like to think about it I
don't think any like, actual like, white people like it was all like different groups of people are like
my friends are these my closer friends than I hung out with or play at the playground with
Faruk 7:19
you have you and Jose still in contact now?
Ahmed Nur. 7:21
No.
Faruk Ahmed 7:21
Yeah, that's cool time does that. So how about as you get older maybe towards a junior
high/upper middle school?
Ahmed Nur. 7:31
So yeah. So whittier I went there from kindergarten until like the first couple of days in fifth grade
and then I transferred to Cla Barton open school in southwest Minneapolis. Yeah. And that was
a little bit more of a culture change because is more, more affluent students and more. Not as
diverse but there was Diversity they're definitely not the teaching side is mainly white teachers is
what I noticed.
Faruk 8:11
So how did your experience with your student body and making friends and what not, did that
shift also with the new school?
Ahmed Nur. 8:21
Oh, not really. I think my experiences are a lot like from a young age like meeting a bunch of
different people allowed me to be able to connect with a lot of specific people and easily make
friends so I wasn't hard to get to know people really, really quick.
Faruk Ahmed 8:38
It sounds like you were open to the idea of befriending anyone; were the other students
receptive that they you know, did they reflect that like, hey, they're also willing to accept?
Ahmed Nur. 8:52
I say yes and no. I had like a kind of a weird experiences. I had sold my fifth grade teacher I
remember an area name was Mary Austin. And she was like a tyrant. She's like this very, like,
cool old white lady who definitely had a bias towards like African American kids and like she,
she does a lot more harsh. And like she she would grade us harder and like held us, She tried
to say she holds us to a higher standard, but it seems like there was a little bit like thinking back
now it seems like there's a little bit of prejudice on her behalf and she would favor the white
students and a lot of the people in the classroom were sensitive to this and kind of one more
stand-offish to the other students that were favored by the teacher.
Faruk Ahmed 9:52
Did you feel any of that? I know you've mentioned that in hindsight, you're able to look back and
really see things for what they were but were you able to
Ahmed Nur. 9:59
Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 10:00
feel it?
Ahmed Nur. 10:00
Definitely Yes.
Faruk Ahmed 10:01
As a student?
Ahmed Nur. 10:02
Yeah. And I feel like it caused me to not like that teacher shes probably like, one of the one like,
one teachers I most disliked thinking back to even like at that moment to people really didn't like
her I just then I didn't like her and even now thinking back I still am not a fan of her.
Faruk Ahmed 10:27
this is at the new school is a clara barton?
Ahmed Nur. 10:29
It is.
Okay. In grade, fifth grade?
fifth grade. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 10:33
So towards the end of your school career Have you come, Did you come across any other
teachers or like that experience anything of that sort. or was it was just smooth sailing from from
then on?
Ahmed Nur. 10:45
From there. Yeah, after fifth grade after Clara barton, I left there and I went to edina Actually, I
went to Southview middle school. And from there it was, like, even more of a culture change
because I went from like, kind of diverse classroom to like another diverse classroom. I went to
like, maybe there was like five African American people including myself, maybe five, I'll say five
to 10 in like the whole school at that when I first went there in sixth grade and and maybe like
one other somali person, so it was really different because there were, there was people I can
relate to, but most of the time I wasn't in class with them. So I'd be kind of isolated by myself.
Faruk Ahmed 11:30
This is at southview?
Ahmed Nur. 11:31
southview. Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 11:35
Did Did you and the other students, like, at what point? Did you guys see each other or talk to
each other? This is like a lunchtime thing?
Ahmed Nur. 11:44
Yeah, it'skind of a lunchtime thing or like in passing or something like that. like one of my
friends. His name is Keondre and we had a couple of classes together. And that's about it this is
in the sixth grade.
Faruk Ahmed 12:00
There wasnt really much exposure with the little group of other black kids.
Ahmed Nur. 12:06
no
Faruk Ahmed 12:06
not with each other. So you went to, Did you finish our middle school at Southview then?
Ahmed Nur. 12:13
Yes, I went 6,7,8th and then half of eighth grade, I went to Eden Prairie High School, and then
half a ninth grade. I Eden Prairie middle school and a half a ninth grade in high school. And then
I went back to Edina, the rest of my career.
Unknown Speaker 12:33
Was there. Was there a difference between Eden Prairie Middle School/High School versus
southview?
Ahmed Nur. 12:40
I say, Yeah, because when I did transfer the Eden Prairie. There was a concentration of Somali
people and black people there too. And it seemed like they were more grouped together. So like
in the classroom, I'd have maybe like, out of 20 Kids Maybe four or five of us would be black.
And so this and I know everybody like that so it just kind of made it easier
Faruk Ahmed 13:13
was your experience with schooling any different than like academically with the shift from
southview to eden prairie?
Ahmed Nur. 13:22
southview to eden prairie not as much. I feel like this shift between me middle school to I mean
from elementary to middle school and but at a high school was fine like but I feel like there was
a gap for me in elementary to middle school.
Faruk Ahmed 13:39
Oh well let's let's go back really quick then. is the shift happened when you went from Whittier to
clara barton or?
Ahmed Nur. 13:48
ya no, from i think uhh, Clara Barton or to Edina seemed like that that year I spent at Clara
Barton. I feel like I didn't progress as much as I should have. And so I was kind of behind in, like
reading level or just anything like, like, just academically than other students who were a little bit
ahead of me.
Faruk Ahmed 14:11
What do you think, if you had to point to something as the as the cause of that, you know, it
would just be like, you know, you just didn't feel like you wanted to even try it a school that really
didn't (want you)
Ahmed Nur. 14:26
I think it's a combination of that. And our like, I wasn't taught enough more Elise in the right
ways that was conducive to proper learning. Like, for example, maybe I was more of a visual
learner and she's teaching me more auditory, if thats even a word.
Faruk Ahmed 14:47
Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Interesting. You said it kind of you kind of fell back into place then through
southview?
Ahmed Nur. 14:58
Let's see. Yeah. And then also I was in my ESL classes too because I was still learning English
kind of because I was already speaking in Somalia at home and then learning English at school
so there's a little bit of conflict of like the war is kind of going on in my head confusing. Like past
tense like different words punctuation, anything like that.
Faruk Ahmed 15:24
So what is what is life like? At home? You know your family? Are you guys moving a lot? I
mean, you you switch to schools, I guess from middle school. Are you guys moving like
geographically? your family's expanding?
Ahmed Nur. 15:42
Yeah, that is expanding. Only thing we moved a couple times. But from what I The reason why I
went from Clara Barton to Edina was because I actually lived in edina for like, six to eight
months or something. And then we move back to Minneapolis. But though that was The main
reason why I was in the edina and other than that, we just moved around Minneapolis. So it
wasn't too far, like removed from maybe like, within like, five to eight miles. So it wasn't a crazy
shift environment like that.
Faruk Ahmed 16:21
That being said, How did it, How was your social life at that point with all the movement?
Ahmed Nur. 16:27
social life for me was I always got it wrong. Like I said, with people, either around the
neighborhood or I always had friends like no different places or even sports allowed me to make
friends with other people. And I didn't always need friends to because I had siblings and I had
cousins who usually live around me so I always had people to play with or always do something
with our go riding bikes or anything like that.
Faruk Ahmed 16:52
Yeah. What kind of sports are you into?
Yeah, when I was younger, I played a lot of soccer. So I played at the club level. I played in high
school. And then as I grew older, I stopped playing soccer and I started running track and cross
country.
Did you do any of these sports in high school?
Ahmed Nur. 17:13
Oh, yeah, I did. All throughout high school.
Faruk Ahmed 17:17
Which one
Ahmed Nur. 17:17
I did, I did soccer. Like my was. So I was running. I ran track from eighth grade all the way to
my senior in high school. And then I played soccer. I was playing club, a ninth grade and then
decided to try the high school team. I think my 10th grade year. I played that for actually no, my
ninth grade year. I played that for a little bit and then I quit soccer and started running cross
country because that was another fall sport. And I just did that from 10th or 11th, like halfway
through 10th grade to the rest of my senior or this month. My high school career.
Faruk Ahmed 18:02
Did you? Did you just get into track and cross country just because it was available? Or did you
feel like it was something you'd be good at? Like what kind of drew you into that?
Ahmed Nur. 18:14
Yeah, I was kind of just been like really fast as fast as a lot of kids. So especially the soccer too,
and that is that all of us do track because I can just run short distance and use my speed. And
then as I grew older, I seemed like I was doing a lot better and like the longer Sprint's and I still
had that speed, and then so my coaches convinced me to come try little distance races, and
then I started to do really well. And then they just convinced me even more to train more. And
from there, I just stopped playing soccer and just focus more on longer distance running.
Faruk Ahmed 18:53
And this is all at edina?
Ahmed Nur. 18:54
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 18:57
So let's shift back to I guess, academic And socially what was high school like for you then?
Ahmed Nur. 19:04
Like any other high school, it was like very cliquey. But then again, you find your groups like, I
see I fit in a lot of groups like I rode the bus with all like all the African American kids from
Annapolis. So like, those are all my friends, I'm really close with them. But then again, I fit in
groups with like the athletes like the 60, like the running group, and then I had friends from track
who are in other sports so like, they'd be like the football group, so I'd be closer to some of those
guys. I'd be closest to the soccer players because they play soccer with them. As it's kind of like
that. Just just bouncing in like different groups of people like more of like, even like some of the
kids who were like loners example. They be kind of nice to themselves. I was friends with them,
just through the having to the classes with people and I feel like interacting with people was
really easy for me. So I made a lot of different friends allowed me to kind of go in and out
different friend groups.
Faruk Ahmed 20:08
Was there were there any hiccups in your, in your social life? Like were there, I don't know. I
mean, your experiences, I would want to say unique but it's not like the standard high school
experience. You know, people are usually like the clicking up is kind of something that breaks it
for them, their their high school experience, but you you're able to fit into a lot of different
groups.
Ahmed Nur. 20:35
I think. Like, at the moment, it didn't seem like anything was wrong, but I thinking back there's a
lot of like, different micro aggressions from people are just like people just like, I don't know, why
is this person acting this way, but then like thinking back on like, oh, maybe they just like felt
some type of way of me because I'm different. So there's, there's groups, obviously groups of
people that weren't fans of me so like I kind of stayed away from them or just or I just wasn't
fans of them or their views so I can just like let them do them and I just did me.
Faruk Ahmed 21:07
How was the the academic side of your high school experience with your with your teachers, I
should say, what was the experience like with your teachers at a predominantly white school?
Ahmed Nur. 21:17
It was honestly, like all white people. I don't think I had a single, like, African American teacher
in while I was at edina. I had a couple hispanic teachers, one Asian teacher, but like, all
teachers really cool is I like in high school never had a problem with any teachers. They're all
pretty chill. So my favorite teachers were, were white, and they're like, like, for example, one of
my teachers he was on my sociology teacher. He, like kind of got me more engaged,
academically saw like he's one of my favorite teachers.
Faruk Ahmed 22:02
You didn't? Did you feel any microaggressions? Like, you know, or stuff like that from the
teachers at any point?
Ahmed Nur. 22:13
No, not really.
Faruk Ahmed 22:15
Yeah. That's good.
So after high school, what was what were your plans? Were What were you hoping to do? What
did you end up doing?
Ahmed Nur. 22:30
Well, after high school. I wanted to go to college obviously, the big thing for me too, was trying
to still compete at a collegiate level for cross country and track and field. A lot of offers around
the country or just different schools. But that would have to have me move. And my parents
didn't want me to move out of state or move too far away. So I kind of made it harder on me.
Sad turned down a lot of really good offers, like lot of good schools that wanted me and then
kind of a like a last minute thing as I kept pushing it off kept trying to see what different schools
because I Augsburg was like I was like my safe like my last. Like I'd say like plan z or something
like it was like a last thing I could always fall back on. But then last minute, a school in
Wisconsin that was like 50 minutes away, convinced me my mom that was a good fit and it
wasn't too far away where I could come home whenever I wanted in River Falls, Wisconsin, so I
decided to go there for my college career. I only went there for a year and that transferred to
Augsburg.
Faruk Ahmed 23:47
what was that year like a year in a River Falls do we live in like you're living on campus?
Ahmed Nur. 23:53
Yeah, i lived on campus so it was cool. First time I've been able to live on my own. I was a pretty
independent person. It wasn't too bad for me. But it was not it was different from high school,
but the same because there was a whole bunch of white people there. But it was a different kind
of white people. It was more of like people from like, the country. So it was they had their own
different ideals kind of different look on things. So there's a little more were like in the cities, like
people who are prejudice would be more, be more not confront you as much. theyd just throw
around microaggressions are just like passive aggressive like Minnesotans, but here people are
a little more upfront with their prejudice.
Faruk Ahmed 24:48
did you have in an interaction with anything of that sort?
Ahmed Nur. 24:53
Yeah, couple different times. Yeah.
second hand witness?
No I definitely witnessed it first hand a couple times. I remember one occasion vividly. Me and a
bunch of my teammates. We went to really go to this party and go meet up with some other
friends. And we go to this house and it's like this house and it's like a car by the school. There's
a bunch of people outside. It's like doing whatever. And then we go in there. And they like the
owner, the house comes running says, Yeah, we can't come in. What do you mean? Like he
pointed to our white teammates? So yeah, we know then they can come in. And they're like, you
guys can't come in. i was like, "why" and we were like, they know us. Like you kind of know us
whats the point? and yeah, he said "but we don't really like people that color. And a lot of people
here will feel uncomfortable, with you guys here" and that guy put it in a nice way, just kind of
telling us like, get out of here. And so we left on another occasion, same kind of incident, but we
actually had guns pulled out on us telling us to leave.
Faruk Ahmed 26:06
So the first incident was that was with other students?
Ahmed Nur. 26:10
mhmm.
Faruk Ahmed 26:11
and the second?
Ahmed Nur. 26:12
The second is the same thing. It was like pretty much the same group of people I was with
almost, but the maybe like one of our team that one of our white teenagers with us, but the rest
of us were, two somali guys, three African American guys, and then one white guy, and they
pointed the gun at us and told us to get the fuck out of here. sorry about my language.
Faruk Ahmed 26:38
Nah its cool.
What did you guys make of the first one versus the second one?
Ahmed Nur. 26:46
The first one was like whatever I all they're like they're just hating on us like just because just
because you know, our skin tone but then like the other occasion. We just it was It's almost
surreal just because we were like that really happened because you don't really like run into that
situation every day was like you kind of just like confused with it just shock I didn't think it
actually happened. Like say like dreaming or something. I was like a figure of my immagination
like was he really holding a gun like It was like this is weird situation. Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 27:24
it's it's Yeah, I can't imagine how surreal it would be for somebody to threaten your life because
they don't like your that you're black or your skin tone. Was that one of the one of the factors of
you wanted to come back to Minneapolis or come to augsburg or go to augsburg. Was that kind
of like you're already on your way out of there.
Ahmed Nur. 27:53
Yeah, I was already kind of on my way out of there because I was dealing with that same kind of
BS on the team Because..
Faruk Ahmed 28:01
within your track team?
Ahmed Nur. 28:04
my cross country here because like it seemed like the the other only the older white guys really
were like together and they really just like excluded us because we were the more talented
younger and darker people on team and so they kind of i feel like they're they're envious of us,
yes but they also just didn't like how we did things because we're we came in we were a little
more like not me exactly like some other teammates. Everybody was confident was confident in
their abilities, but like some other teammates were a little more braggadocious they were like
more out there and vocal about their, about their abilities and how they're really the best on the
team. So they deserve more respect and a lot of other guys didnt really like that.
Faruk Ahmed 29:07
How did they respond?
Ahmed Nur. 29:09
Uh, we never really were confronted like that except, like, more like nonverbal things are like,
they talked to the coaches and the coaches would come talk to us and tell us things like second
hand. But there was one incident of like one of the captains he was his really intoxicated one
day after a race one night after he said, he was kind of like, was like venting to all of us saying
like how he does because we're we're so cocky we think we know it all. This that this and he, at
one point to one of my teammates was, was like, I think he's recently said he's like, to quote him
he was like; "my nigga why are you saying this" and the guy was like, the white guy was like
"what? did you just call me a nigger" and like he just kind of like started going off and started
using out like start using the N word towards that teammate of mine and so that's kind of like
fractured the relationship even more between like us younger guys and the older guys
Faruk Ahmed 30:27
How did your your teammate respond to the you from teammate repeating the N word at him?
Ahmed Nur. 30:37
How did he respond?
Faruk Ahmed 30:40
was there like a physical?
Ahmed Nur. 30:41
oh no there's was nothing physical is all verbal but was like yelling and then like the day after, or
if the next time you have practice when you like he apologize and everything he's like, oh, that
wasn't me, like trying to like mend, like men the fence like mend the relationship. But like once
that line is crossed, kind of like you can't really go back. You know, he, like the saying goes like,
was this like a, like a drunk person always, like speak like the truth or something like that but
Faruk Ahmed 31:12
yeah, I've heard what youre talking about. Yeah.
So the transition from UW River Falls was going to happen.
Yeah, for me for me. Yeah, because I thought I didn't really like it There just and I just wanted to
go back to Minneapolis because it's just, it is rather be at home and go to school and like, save
some money too. And I was still in contact with the coach that was at Augsburg at the time. And
he was like, Yeah, I would love to have you here. And then literally one day in the summer, he
just like, one day I was like I said, tickler falls next day everything was gone. Like in three days. I
changed schools and then like on that third day I reported for training camp and my my new
team It was like out of the blue like that
so the transition was smooth then.
Ahmed Nur. 32:12
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty sweet.
Faruk Ahmed 32:14
What was so how was your experience at augsburg.
Ahmed Nur. 32:21
Augsburg really it was really cool vibe. I really liked it because I already knew people who were
here. It was a tight knit community small is very diverse. Is has its own problems but like it
wasn't as noticeable as like other places. But I liked the team. I liked the coach a lot. The team
was cool. Campus. I liked how, where it was located. I have access to a lot of things. I can live
at home as a 10 min drive to to school. I could work, i could still goto practice and I like it was no
problem
Faruk Ahmed 33:04
well its interesting you mentioned it augsburg having its own problems like what you talked
about like athletics were you talking about just the school like your experience at the school I
mean you don't have to get too deep into if you don't want to but anything that you don't want to
but I just find it interesting that you that's one of the things that you mentioned.
Ahmed Nur. 33:24
Yeah. no, it has on problems in terms of like there's still people who have prejudice towards like
other groups of people whether it's like race our religion for or anything like that. Like I had a
teammate this this girl actually she she was a really really big conservative I she was a nice girl
like no problems at all but like she had like these very, very far right views and then she would
like Like talk about her views a lot. And like, like one of the wildest things she said to me was
he's talking about how Ronald Reagan was the best thing to ever happen to like America. And
like looking back in history, and that is definitely wrong and like, kind of a problematic statement
to say. And she like, and I was another teammate of mine to a guy, same kind of thing that was
from the south. And he also had this kind of same ideals and the, they just were more like, the
guy was more abrasive, and they were just kind of like, spew their own ideology, and just kind of
like, try to work people up sometimes. I see a few things. And people try to brush it off. And I've
confronted him a couple times and like they stop saying, like, over time. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 34:58
Were there any other like athletes of color. black? you know, on the team on the track team?
Ahmed Nur. 35:05
Yeah on the team. So when I first came, there's only one black as one only one African
American person on the team. I listened to cross country to it when I joined. Also, my friend also
joined who's also Somali. So the three of us. And then the track team is different because
there's more African American people on the team, but the cross country team, there's only us
three. And then as like, I went throughout my career, like every year, I'd like to still be in contact
with some of the people I used to compete against, like one of my friends ended up going to
River Falls because he thought we were going there because he wanted to be with us. And then
so he got stuck there for a year. And so he also transferred to Augsburg and as well as another,
somali guy on the team and then over time like it got more diverse because people start seeing
us there and they kind of like; we kind of pulled them in and they just came here.
Faruk Ahmed 36:16
Did your friend and then teammate who went to River Falls first and then transferred over,
Ahmed Nur. 36:22
Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 36:23
was his experience that you could you guys speak about
Ahmed Nur. 36:25
he had the same experience. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 36:27
yeah.
So you did you end up finishing your undergrad here at augsburg?
Ahmed Nur. 36:36
Yep, yep. Yep. Finished in 2016
Faruk Ahmed 36:40
would you share your major?
Ahmed Nur. 36:43
Oh yeah. I saw I had I got data management major with the marketing minor.
Faruk Ahmed 36:50
was, was augsburg like for you socially, academically?
Ahmed Nur. 36:57
Academically is really cool. At first. I can augsburg wanting to do secondary education and
sociology so I took as taking some social classes my first semester augsburg and met some like
really cool people, some really cool teachers. I met this one teacher His name is Lars
Christiansen is really like trendy dude who always dresses nice he like he's really cool guy
always bikes to school, like doesn't matter the weather. So he kind of like he really like kind of, I
think he embodied what Augsburg was and how like pretty inclusive of a School it is. and he
kind of preached being close with everybody like doesn't matter the ethnicity, nationality, the
religion, the gender, anything like that so its like, is cool to see that and so this was refreshing
and honestly at augsburg I don't think I had a bad teacher like as a; when I transferred to the
business side also had some great teachers to like I had one teacher John Cerrito he's well
known in the business department he's he's a really fun guy like he's very relatable and like he
really gets to know you as a person and I all my teachers like it I really liked augsburg because
it was like the class size was so small the teacher can really get to know you they can build a
relationship with the teacher so I really had relationships with my all my teachers to the point
where like I can have like that like know them like on a first name basis or I could go drop into
their office and we don't even sometimes have to talk about schoolwork we just like catch up by
anything.
Socially, same kind of thing like as I be like this still like groups of people, you know, like hang
out with each other. But like going to the lounge was it was cool big. The nice thing with his
meeting all these people and then being different groups to allowed me to meet different people,
like, PASU, the Pan Afrikan Student Union I was on I was part of it from the beginning when I
was at Augsburg, and towards the end, I was Augsburg. I was a PR officer. And then I also then
became the vice president. And so I met a lot of had relations with a lot of the students of color
at Augsburg.
Faruk Ahmed 39:36
Do you have any, if you were to give advice to in an upcoming or incoming freshman, cross
country student from let's say, edina, what would you would you share with them?
Ahmed Nur. 39:57
I probably share with the biggest things Time management, because everybody wants to come
to college, you're going to have more free time than your, the you know what to do with. So that
free time is what's going to like, make or break you academically and socially. So if you, for
example, use all your free time socially, your academics is gonna go down with you all your free
time academically, your social life might go down. So it's kind of having to find the balance. And
it's hard yet but you just have to find your your routine as a big thing. And finding a group of
people that you feel close to, or connected to. It's going to make things a lot easier because for
example, studying you know, you might start taking classes with some nice people, but getting
to know people around classes, because you're going to have to see them later on like,
especially in the same majors, you can help each other out with different homework or studying
for exams or anything. So just building those relationships is key. And keeping that in mind
trying not to burn too many bridges. Or, and yeah just be mindful of your surroundings because
you have to always be like on your 10 toes because you can actually expect anything to
happen. Whether academically socially, or just any day. you know?
Faruk Ahmed 41:37
what's next for Ahmed?
Ahmed Nur. 41:40
for me? For Ahmed? Oh, that's a good question, man. I'm trying to figure that out. Hopefully
finding the career path that I like starting our business starting a family Yeah, just the Typical
dream.
Faruk Ahmed 42:06
so I want to finish up with you kind of giving me an overview of your experience as a Muslim
growing up and coming through like you know go with your education and whatnot so from like
maybe your first maybe like you know when when you first noticed that people did not really like
you know, your your faith or do not have did not align with their beliefs and whatnot, and how
that kind of if that's something that followed you, yeah, just an overall view of your experience.
Ahmed Nur. 42:56
Thinking Back I've always got just like remarks like like people ask what I'm doing when I'm
praying especially at school I see someone sees me in a corner praying or someone sees me in
classroom praying they just just very confused. I've had the the people tapping on your shoulder
asking What are you doing?But thinking back it.. high school, no problems really with as as
being Muslim. In high school, I saw the problems more being this black. And as I grew older, it it
kind of morphed into also being Muslim was viewed wrong. Because like all of that high school,
my cross country team was very was very willing to work with me and my religion, especially
during Ramadan, um, like my coaches Allow me to practice at different times or if I come in and
like they'd have they had me come in earlier than or morning practice like when this before the
sun goes up the have some food ready for me or I have an evening practice. And right after I hit
the showers and they didn't have some food ready for me, or they had some drinks ready for me
or something. So they're very they're, they're willing to work with me. As it grew older. My
experiences changed a little bit because I was like, the people around me were mainly black
Muslims, so like Somali people, either like Ethiopian people or people like that. Like those are
the kind of people that are around me, like my, my mosque and so I never really saw a
difference until I got older and seeing the different type of I was a prejudice but like people Just
kind of like demean black Muslims leave I see like, people were from like Arab countries they
think a little more highly of themselves. I never had any instances, but I've heard from my
friends like different problems at a different mosque or just like like, like you can be praying next
to someone to be in line with someone and like you're supposed to keep a straight line like toes
are supposed to be touching like people and like some some other Muslim people would not let
a black person like foot touch their foot. And like that's a very backwards way of thinking
because this is a religion that preaches oneness and brother brotherhood, like everyone is
supposed to be in this together and have no ill will but like this was.. uh.. im kind of lost for
words.
Unknown Speaker 46:06
I see what you mean, kind of like you know no one's above no nationality no race is above the
other.
Unknown Speaker 46:11
exactly like only person who is above everybody else's god you know like mean Who are you to
belittle someone else so that's that's something I I've noticed like I said it hasn't happened to me
but like people around me have told me about situations like this and you see online like on
Twitter for example you can see these these these lands are Shiekhs talking about different
things are like people are always trying to pray for like Arab countries, for example that need aid
and like raising aid for them as Yeah, they do need aid, they do need to help. But there's also
countries where there's black Muslims that need the help too I'm not just gonna say Somalia
because I'd be bias on my end but is this black Muslims like being like enslaved in Libya for
example that's not getting any coverage people aren't worrying and people aren't bringing
awareness to it really. You see it here and there but like, you see black it being bought all over
like North Africa and in the Arab countries. And this is very sickening to see that this religion is
so beautiful, being twisted like this. And just because of the skin color, like we are all supposed
to be in this together and fearing God, but this is a sad see. But at my age right now 26 years
old, I guess I had no real problems. With like another like Muslim person for example, but you
know, if you've had you get those like, you know, on a Friday prayer, I'll be like wearing a
Khamiis or something. Like, in when I was younger I've had like, people make comments. So
like, what does that dress you're wearing? Like so some people are ignorant to that like that. But
their ignorance comes from like misinformation or just being misguided by the media or just not
knowing, you know. So I've told people that like, this is not a dress, this is like religious garb like
tell them the significance behind it. And I'd be like, I tell them to say, if someone's walking in a
kilt, would you be like Oh, nice dress, because I know you understand the, the this cultural
significance behind the kilt. So why can't you understand the cultural significance behind
Khamiis. and Um, being Minneapolis and with so many somali people Being here. I feel like
we've been targeted on multiple fronts. On one front being black actually like a moderate one for
being black and another front being Muslim, and then another front being Somali. So that's like
this three things someone who is a racist could attack me on my religion, my nationality and my
my ethnicity. And so this is this is weird. Grow like this is a weird place to grow up in especially
now that I'm older I can see like I know the people who are younger than me something to have
to go through like my siblings telling me about a school how people are, are are standing up and
actually be more vocal about their their their hate for some odd people or their hate for Some
people more than you see them. Speaking of about someone being black, for example, so you
see more hate based on that same just had a story of mine. I just lost my train of thought.
Faruk Ahmed 50:20
That's cool. We can be back here to let,
Ahmed Nur. 50:25
actually I guess I could talk about growing up to like, it's understandable like, hate coming from,
like, let's say a person who like a Caucasian person because they don't have the the right I'm so
different from them. But growing up also there was hate from African American people like black
African American people, people who are native to the US, you know, so looking at like, if you
see me and a black person, I go after mega person, we are the same person. We were the
same, like there shouldn't be any distinction between us. But growing up, especially when I was
younger, I felt like I had to fight for my blackness because people wouldn't say No, you're not.
You're not black, you know, you're you're African, there's difference. There's difference. And
reality there really isn't. Like, we all come from the same area, like we are from the same
continent. Like you, your family might have your lineage, your immediate needs might be here,
or my immediate lineage might be there. There's there's no difference but it's just I don't know
where this is the virus coming from maybe I don't know. It's, there's a term I remember. reading
about the like the crab effect. I don't know if you heard about it?
Faruk Ahmed 51:59
crabs in a bucket?
Ahmed Nur. 52:00
exactly crabs in the bucket. You know they're they're trying to breathe the air so they're pulling
people down or the crabs down around them stretch to get to the top. So I feel like that's
something that kind of happens in our community and so people are putting each other down
trying to elevate themselves when we should be elevating of each other.
Faruk Ahmed 52:23
Yeah Why do you Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's such a? You know, I've
gotta go get it I've gotta go get it and pull down whatever it is, is keeping me from it. What do
you think that kind of stems from?
Ahmed Nur. 52:37
You know, I honestly don't know. I've like tried to like rationalize this many times trying to think
through was like, What causes you know, someone to, like think like this, you know, like, this is
maybe some of the way the way they were raised or like you know, I is this is very, it's very
confusing. Maybe it's poverty maybe?
Faruk Ahmed 53:10
I, that's kind of what I kind of gear towards, like, you know, the resources in these communities
that are, you know, predominantly black, you know, with people of color, there's just such a
gross lack of; you know, that it does become a, a fight for survival. You know, you have all these
people, all these different groups of people who are all fighting to survive with with crumbs, you
know, given to them by, you know, the predominately white run society, the society that benefits
you know, not people of color. So, that's that's kind of what I've kind of geared towards the
answer, you know, I mean, but definitely I also and somali person do recall some of the The
clashing and the conflicts betweenAfricans and like migrant Africans and African Americans.
Yeah, did you this was so much more so your, your, your younger life or is that something that
continues, you know, to this day for you?
I haven't seen as much recently but like, I see it online like other people I hadn't discussions,
you know, like it and you can even dive deeper into it, not just the, the, the discussion between
being African and African American, you know, but then like, diving deep into it also like African
people are have like a some somewhat of a more of a superiority complex because, you know, I
might be from West Africa and I think that people from East Africa or less Africa than I am
because of data Like there the slave trade was more prevalent in the West than the East for
example, and you guys didn't struggle like we struggled but all together like it's you kind of
understand what im trying to say? I'm kind of I'm a little I just got stuck lost my train of thought.
But.
we could be done? what do you think?
you could take that little part its just i dont know kind of just like
that part? yeah.
Well that's all I have for you. is there anything you'd like to add?
Ahmed Nur. 55:51
nothing really you know, peace, love and positivity.
Faruk Ahmed 55:55
Alright man, I appreciate you.
Ahmed Nur. 55:56
Yeah, see you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Abby Mulcahey 0:01
Um, so what is your name?
Muna Galbayte 0:19
My name is Muna Galbayte.
Abby Mulcahey 0:38
Okay, um, tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
Muna Galbayte 0:45
I grew up in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. It's about half an hour away from Minneapolis. It's
... Show more
Abby Mulcahey 0:01
Um, so what is your name?
Muna Galbayte 0:19
My name is Muna Galbayte.
Abby Mulcahey 0:38
Okay, um, tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
Muna Galbayte 0:45
I grew up in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. It's about half an hour away from Minneapolis. It's
a pretty big suburb. It's a white majority suburb. It was a pretty nice place to grow up if
you're not Somali, but I am. So, it was... there were a lot of stereotypes that people have
about Somali people. And like growing up in a space where we weren't the majority, it
was kind of rough, but I guess I got through it by kind of just assimilating to the max.
And that was essentially my entire time there. Other than, like, the problematic bits, it's a
really nice place to grow up. Once you get to know the people and once you feel like
you're part of the community, and that's eventually when I got to when I got into high
school.
I felt a lot more accepted. And people were a lot cooler about, you know, like, "people
have a different race," you know?
Abby Mulcahey 1:09
What were some of the challenges of growing up there?
Muna Galbayte 1:12
Um, not being white was a big one and also being Muslim. And also having immigrant
parents. You know, it was
interesting that it would be a struggle growing up anywhere. So I'm not sure to call Eden
Prairie out and say it was like a bad place to live. Like, no matter where I would have
lived, I would have faced the same things because no matter how progressive you think
America is, if you fall into those categories, there's going to be a lot more scrutiny. And
there was, I felt like the entire time I was representing the entire country of Somalia, like
every... like I had to be the spokesman for an entire nation for entire like ethnic group
and that really takes a toll on your mental health... feeling like you always have to be
perfect
Or else you're the reason someone's going to be racist. You know? It's just never really a
good feeling. But yeah, being a black Muslim woman whose a daughter of immigrants is
going to be hard anywhere. I know it's hard in Eden Prairie.
Abby Mulcahey 2:18
So tell me a little bit about growing up and just your life.
Muna Galbayte 2:23
Prior to Augsburg?
Abby Mulcahey 2:25
Yeah. Or even in Augsburg. Just your life.
Muna Galbayte 2:31
Okay. Um, well, I grew up in the city of Eden Prairie, as I said before. I grew up with my
parents. I have six siblings, three older half siblings and three younger whole siblings, or
whatever, but we don't really make a difference in culture and you know a sibling's a
sibling. And so I'm the middle child, which is always a fun thing.
Um, yeah, so we grew up... lived
in the same house my entire life, or at least the entire life that I've known. I knew we
lived in Minneapolis for around two years of my life... the first two years of my life? And
then we moved to Eden Prairie.
I went to all of the Eden Prairie schools, and um growing up, it was always a struggle
between like my American identity and my Somali identity. And one of the biggest ways
that I like, saw that I guess, was in my fluency in Somali, like when I was younger, I had
freakin great Somali, you know, like, I would talk to my parents, blah blah blah. Like
they really did push English, obviously, because you know, we're in America, everyone
speaks English. I was born in America. So like, that was kind of my first language but
Somali, like... I just grew up speaking it and around third grade um
teachers just did
not like that. They did not... the school I went to, *can't make out audio*, was notorius
for
just like the way they treated students of color. We actually had this whole thing we had
to segregate... our school was very segregated. So a lot of Somali kids ended up there and
they had to change the district lines in order to fix that, and it was this huge thing and
the superintendent got let go. It was it was crazy. But yeah, there's a very anti
anything non American sentiment there. So um
I didn't end up speaking Somalia as much and we spoke English at home. So I just kind
of slowly lost it. And um
that's, that's what I see. That's like the pinnacle, kind of of my struggle between like, the
two sides of my identity, I guess. Because I'm not just American. I'm Somali American.
Whether I make that distinction, other people will so I just do it myself.
Yeah,
So that's why I'm kind of like my formative years where it was a lot of
shoving kind of like apple pie down my throat like forcing me to assimilate. And I found
that it was easier to do that. So that's kind of what I went with. And, you know, like,
when I talk about things that my family does, like the people like are just like, wow, this
is like, like, I guess we're kind of like the ideal like, it immigrant family or whatever.
Because like, you know, like, for every fourth of July weekend, we'll go camping. And we
would go to like, *can't make out audio* things and just like, like, we have gotten really
good at assimilating, just because that makes life easier. And that's what we're all about
here. I'm just trying not to make waves and it's fun, but it also... um
it's a struggle at times because... because I wanted to assimilate, I didn't really have much,
many interactions with a lot of other Somali youth which
I really regret especially during my high school years, I had almost all like all of my
friends were white, or
like, just people of color who weren't Somali, because at my high school especially it was
it was really disgusting the way that people would like, treat people who were be like...
who were me. I don't I don't know how to say it another way. Like, I have this really
clear memory of ninth grade. It was during lunch. I was sitting with this girl named
Allison Harris, and Mike something or whatever. And I just remember Allison Harris
because she was a fucking bitch, right? And so we were sitting and this group of Somalia
girls walked in and they're just like talking or whatever. And like, She's like, well, Somali
trolley or something like that. And I was like, I'm Somali, Allison. And she's like, no, like,
you're different. That was like something that I really
Like that was the big thing. But like, I'm like, other Somali people suck, but you know,
like, you're different. Like you're feeling like you're just not like those people. And it's
such an infuriating thing to hear. So we weren't friends after that. Oh, yeah. It was just I
didn't want to be friends with someone who subsequently didn't respect me or respect my
culture.
But the thing is, when I was younger, I kind of leaned into it because it just made life
easier. I was just like, okay, and I'm different or whatever. But what I've come to realize
that but I'm glad that I realized this. I'm not I'm, I'm 100%. Somali. And I'm really proud
to say that and it just, it really breaks my heart knowing, like, how many... how different
my friend who could have been how different my experience could have been, and I'm
really glad that
it's different in college. I've made a lot more Somali friends I feel like a lot. It's just it's
such a nice feeling being connected to your culture, and like
especially living in Cedar-Riverside. You know, it's like, like, I'll go down the street.
There's an African grocery mart. And like, there's so many just like, Somali restaurants
that I can eat. Yeah, I know, some of the restaurants around here are freaking amazing.
And it's just it's so nice to be surrounded by a culture that I had previously felt like that I
wasn't accepted, but it was because I wasn't allowing myself to be accepted into it. But
I've stopped caring really about what the majority of like white Americans think about
me or think about people like me, and that's really helped me out.
You know, like, I don't need to generalize, but the average Minnesotan does not have
very good feelings towards my community. And
that's just how it is, you know, it's, it's sad, but it's also something that I can't fix so I'm
not gonna go out my... like Im' not gonna keep trying
To change people who don't want to be changed, you know, like, there's no point in
trying to make, like, I like, I feel like, for so long, I was like, Okay, I have to be the
perfect person. Just so everyone knows, that there's good Somali people but like, I'm
allowed to be human, I'm allowed to do dumb things. And that isn't a reflection of my
entire community. And that's what I've come to learn. And that's just what I'm waiting
for the rest of the country to learn. There are bad people, every creed, every race every
like, everything. And it's it really sucks because the second like people like, like in high
school, like I guess, like the big thing was like, you know, like, Somali people are so
loud, Somali people are so loud, and it's like the only reason people see those differences
is because of like the really big difference in skin color. The really big difference and like,
the way we talk, like, we're just normal people, we're, you know, we're like everyone
else, but we look different. And that's the biggest that's what I've learned is that I'm not
going to keep trying to like, make up for something that I shouldn't have to feel bad
about.
You know, so yeah, that's like, that was a lot of my high school experience. It was just a
lot of us try to assimilate and then
you know,
not feeling the best after. Because, yeah, like, America's apple pie but look at look at
what cost, you know, like, my Somali is really shitty like I find it really hard still like
now to go up to Somali people and have a big conversation, you know talk to them and
it's it's something that I've been working on for a while now and I'm really glad that I
have the opportunity to be surrounded by my culture. It's it's not something I got when I
was growing up.
Abby Mulcahey 10:47
How has it been, like growing up with
Somali parents that are like immigrants like because I know like, you know yeah
Muna Galbayte 11:01
My parents immigrated here about
25 years ago. Right? And I like they had lived in Texas before and California, and then
they moved to Minnesota because, you know, I forget if it's the number one or number
two, but Minnesota has like the highest concentration of Somali people outside of
Somalia, right? And that's why they came here because they wanted to be surrounded by
that. And my parents have taught like a really good job of assimilating to American
culture, as I said before,
but it's, it's like, I noticed it in the little things. Like, for the life of the American pop
culture, I just don't get most of the references. And all of my friends will be like, oh, have
you seen this? Or like, a lot of like, the classic Disney movies like I haven't seen them just
because that wasn't like, , like, Why would my immigrant
Somali parents be like, why would that be something that we watch? Like, we're gonna
listen to some Arab music real quick, you know, everybody gets that. You know, like,
that's like, that's what we did. So like, it's like, it's stuff like that or like, I didn't know for
the longest time that most like, a lot of Americans didn't take their shoes off when they
went into their houses. So like when I'd go over to my friend's house, I'd be like, start
with tying my shoes and they'd be like what are you doing? I'm like bro I'm not gonna
track mud into your house and they're like oh that's fine. You know? Like, it's like, it's
stuff like that. It's
just like cultural differences that just show up. And
I don't know, it's, I don't really see them until I see them I guess. And then I'm like, Oh,
that's because like my parents immigrated here like they it's it's just a it's just a different
way of growing up. And it was really nice growing up. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 12:55
I'm curious um, what the most like racist account "thingy boppy" you've had?
Muna Galbayte 13:03
Well, yeah, well like
the first time I really had anything like say anything super racist, they yelled the N word,
hard-r at me. And I was in eighth grade and my little sister was in seventh grade. And
we were getting off the bus, right. And we were walking up to our front porch because
we were going to go inside our house. And someone who was driving past just yelled it
at us, like, absolute, like, it was the crate. And I was like, I looked at my look older
brother because he had open the door and I was like, like, did you did you just hear
that? And he was like, looking around, like, trying to like find out who said it, but they
were in their car. So like, that was the first time anyone had ever like,
been so blatantly racist that I like recognized. Oh, that's, that's pure racism. And it was...
there was no reason behind it. And the second time it was
pretty recently, actually, it was after the Trump rally here in Minnesota.
And I had gone to the protest right?
After things were like getting crazier than ever and I was walking down the street and
there was this woman in her full MAGA attire and I was feeling like an asshole. So I said
very loudly to my friend, "imagine being such a piece of shit that you wear your MAGA
attire around like it's nothing." and the woman looked at me and she called me the N
word hard-r. And then she... um, we got into like a verbal altercation. I was calling her,
like, a piece of shit.
Like, I was being really and I understand that I was like, being rude like a like I but I
didn't care because I didn't... She had no regard for literally anyone else. Like, that's like,
I don't care if you're Republican. I understand that. I'll always have like different
viewpoints with people who are more conservative, but I have absolutely no patience for
Trump supporters. Yeah, I think they're vile human beings and I will be disrespectful to
them any way I can. I'm going to be honest. I'm not somebody who gets into physical
altercations, but I will curse someone out if they are
So proud of, you know, their political decisions of the, what they believe in, I will call
them out on it. So we got into an altercation she ended up spitting on my friend
who is also like a black Muslim woman. And then she ran inside of Seven, which is kind
of not important, I guess whatever. But I like to tell people, Seven is like a gay bar
Minneapolis and the owner came out and he started saying the most racist shit I've ever
heard in my life. And there's a video of it somewhere, but he called me a towel head.
And then he um... What should we call it? Was just Yeah, he was like, look at like,
these, whatever, whatever. Like it just the most disgusting things ever. And I was like,
Oh, this is this is comedy to me. Like, look at this. Like this man thinks he's so powerful.
And so just, just there's a lot. There's a lot of racism, a lot of sexism, a lot of it was just
the intersectionality of all things vile.
And that was that was a pretty big account. And also this is just a side story but um, it's
it's something funny that I like to tell my friends, another racist thing, which I found that
about my seat last semester of my senior year, it was in this class was called intro to
social justice, right. And there's this kid who sat behind me his name is Carter Boldenow
now, it's not relevant to the story, but you know, and we were just talking and I was
like, Hey, remember in second grade, because we've gone to the same elementary school
was like, remember, we're talking about like, the little choir concert. I was like, I
remember I stood next to you Carter whenever it doesn't, it was just like a weird number
he had. And he was like, wait, that was you? And I was like, Yeah, like what's up and he
was like, You made my grandpa move to Florida. And I was like, What do you mean I
made your grandpa move to Florida? Um backstory... Carter Boldenow's family's
incredibly racist. Like, one of his cousins has a confederate flag tattooed on his
back.
And he's from Minnesota... part of the Union. So yeah, they're the most rac- like, top
top level. But Carter isn't, he's a really cool guy. And he was like, after that performance,
my grandpa was like, You know what, I'm sick of this shit. There are too many towel
heads in the state. And I was- this is my little thing. I was the towel head that broke the
camel's back. I was the reason a fully grown adult man. Like, I wasn't the only reason
but I was the last straw for him. And I was the reason that his grandpa moved to
Florida. And I only knew this like, my last semester of my senior year. Like, I was
wearing my little hijab, and he was just so upset about it.
Abby Mulcahey 17:47
Well, good thing he's out of Minnesota now.
Muna Galbayte 17:49
Yeah. It's a much better state. Yeah, I think that's a very I think it's very funny. Now
obviously, it's like they're all these like terrible things, but I find the humor in it because
like a fully grown man moved states because of a tiny towel head. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 18:08
Do you ever like not feel safe when you go out wearing your hijab?
Muna Galbayte 18:14
Yeah, all the time. Literally like all... Like my biggest fear is that because I'm such a loud
mouth, I'm going to say something to the wrong person and I'm going to get shot.
Because of my like, the thing is, it's not funny, but like, I think it's a little funny. Like, if
someone committed a hate crime against me, they would have so many reasons to like,
I'm black. I'm a Muslim, and I'm a woman. So like, if they tried to figure it out, it's just
that little like intersectionality you know? Um, so yeah, I it's it's really scary and like,
some time to call it a kind of an experiment saying like, oh, like how do I feel about the
hijab like, my parents never were like, I know a lot of people have a really negative
experience with wearing a hijab where their parents kind of forced it on them
but my parents were always like, you know you do you make your own choices but I
know that they would prefer if I wore it because they like, like it's a religion it's a
religious garmet and like, you know, my family's very religious so that's like, why,
but it was just like, you know what college is a time to discover yourself like let me
figure this shit out
and what I've got I just and I like my hair is usually covered anyways because I like wear
bandanas and I wear beanies so like wearing the hijab shouldn't be different but it's so
different and like the thing is, I've noticed it so much like what I'm just wearing my
beanie around like
I don't get dirty looks from strangers like I don't like it's it's so weird. Like there's all this
animosity towards me that I didn't realize until it wasn't there anymore. Like people
smile at me on the streets like like I know like obviously everyone's not a terrible person
but like my experience so far like when I wear the hijab in public
has just been so bad and I didn't even realize it. You know, it's like, I don't know. It's
crazy to me. So yeah, it's like, it's really scary. But I like... I'm still Muslim, you know,
like, I mean I'll wear it, I'll do whatever. But it's it's I don't know how to explain how just
not great it is to feel like you're constantly being like, scrutinized by everyone and
everyone is judging you, and everyone hates you for your religion. It's it's crazy to me.
Yeah, sure. Um, so during my last year of high school, I got really involved in a lot of
violence provention activism. And I ended up working for this nonprofit called protect
Minnesota, and I still work for them. I just do a little less now because college is hard.
Abby Mulcahey 20:34
I also know that you're like a big activist. And then you went to the Women's March,
right? Yeah. And then you even talked there. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Muna Galbayte 21:00
And I worked as well, I also worked for *Audio undectable* in action and I was on the
board for March for Our Lives Minnesota. So that was like kind of my whole shabang. I
like I barely went to high school my senior year. It was really fun though. I would give
press press conferences, I would speak at events. I would just be to make a lot it was it
was really fun. And the way that I got connected with the Women's March was like the
march for lives group chat, someone was like, hey, like, so and so I was looking for
someone to like, speak. They're like, like, we'll have like a phone interview. Just call into
this at a certain time or whatever. So I did I called and did my little interview was like a
conference call with everyone trying to get the position that I got it. So it was literally the
craziest shit ever to be like, I was like, oh, like this is like, kind of insane. And I met Ilhan
Omar there, which was like literally like the biggest flex I will ever have.
No, the bigger flex is that she's technically related to me. And she knew that from my
last name, My last name is Galbayte. And that is not a very common last name. Like it's
like.. most Muslim last names are like Mohammed, yada yada yada
So it's like, just literally Our family has that last name and she was like, Oh, Galbayte,
like she mentioned one of my uncles and I was like, Yeah, she was like, oh sick, like, I'm
related to him through like, whatever, whatever. And it was like, it was like the craziest
thing I cried right after meeting her and it was just this such like,
ah, and it was it was just a really great thing for me.
And like, I don't know activism work in general is just such a very white space. It I know
that a lot of times that people do use me as like their token minority, which I really hate.
Like my high school did that so hard so hard. Like
I yeah, but yeah, like because activism
is such a white space like, I can't help but feel like I stand out no matter what I do
especially when I'm like, what they really want you to do like when you're talking about
your personal experience this is to like kind of like bare your soul to like all these
strangers. And like sometimes I'm just like for what like, I don't know, because it.. things
that I've worked on, like last year I ended up testifying to Minnesota, whatever whatever
like some committee or like Public Safety Committee. It was
about these two bills, house file 9, house file 8. And they were regarding gun violence
prevention, lower levels of red flag law. And the other one is universal background
checks, universal background checks. And the fact that they got through that first
committee like it passed that it got through the next committee and then it died and the
third committee, like that's what I don't like about but like the activism work, it's because
I've put in so many hours, so much time into it.
Like, I always feel like we're never going to get ahead because of, you know, like, like,
the power that other people have in committees it just it, it, it's it feels so good sometimes
but sometimes I just feel so powerless of like, I'm trying so hard and it feels like nothing
is changing.
But what like the different like the different I also work I did a lot of interning for the
DFL the democratic farmer Labor Party of Minnesota, the democrats here.
And I would just work on individual campaigns or interesting like general stuff. So like,
that's that that's the kind of act like activism, I guess, that I really enjoy. Because you can
immediately see a change. I did a lot of voter engagements interning. So I would like
door knocking I'd be cold calling. I'd be like, doing whatever my boss wanted me to do
kind of and it was like 2000, the 2018 midterms. Nearly
Everyone that we were campaigning for got elected, and that felt so freakin good.
Because I had worked on those campaigns I had worked for these people, and then they
got elected. Like, that's like, the terrax. Like, like, I'm kind of like an instant gratification
kind of person. And I know that isn't how it should be like when it comes to like
activism and stuff, but like, working for campaigns is my jam. And that's like, that's like
my favorite kind of civic work. Or I don't know how to describe it that's my favorite
kind . Because I can see results after I talked to a voter and they tell me they're
considering voting for the person that I call for. That feels really good. You know, like,
it's, it's stuff like that, that I really enjoy. And I'm really happy that I got to do it. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 25:48
So I'm curious about like, the dating, um, in Islam and like, how people go about dating.
Muna Galbayte 25:56
Yeah, um, so dating in Islam is a little complicated.
Islam doesn't really like condone
relationships kind of like that aren't leading to marriage. Like if that isn't your goal, like
it's like considered a Haram, like Haram
directly translates to permitted but like, I don't think of it like that. It's Haram like, right?
Um, but like if you're like, like, if you're dating someone you're like, oh, like, I think I
could see myself marrying this person, then like, that's cool. We're just not a whole big
fan of the whole premarital sex thing. And then, yeah, like, it's not that complicated. It's
just a lot of relationships. Like, especially when you're really young, you're not trying to
marry them, which is why you don't see a lot of Muslim people dating when they're
younger.
Oh, I mean, you do.
But it's as long as your intentions are to eventually marry the person or like you're
seriously considering that, then it's like cool, as long as y'all don't have sex.
Abby Mulcahey 27:00
Okay.
All right, Muna. Is there anything else that you would like to add that you didn't get to
share?
Bystander 27:07
No.
Muna Galbayte 27:11
Not really.
Abby Mulcahey 27:13
Okay, thank you for letting me interview you today.
Muna Galbayte 27:19
Thank you for interviewing me.
Show less
Ayann Hodleh 0:00
Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya
Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are
you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit abou... Show more
Ayann Hodleh 0:00
Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya
Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are
you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit about
yourself?
Fowsiya Hassan 0:25
Yes, my name is Fowsiya. I was born in the 80s. I was born to Mogadishu, Somalia. I have ten
siblings, two parents, mother and a father.
Ayann Hodleh 0:41
Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your time when you were living in Somalia, your
childhood?
Fowsiya Hassan 0:49
Well, I spent 15 years in Mogadishu before the war broke out. Things in Somalia aren't as easy
as things in the United States.
Ayann Hodleh 1:03
What do you mean by that?
Fowsiya Hassan 1:05
By that I mean most of our transportation was by foot. And most days, we take vehicles, and we
had to travel for long distances. I would use me going took Dugsi as an example, we'd walk at
least a mile there and a mile back. Almost every day. I spent almost five hours and sometimes
more at Dugsi. Dugsi is a Islamic Studies. When I wasn't spending my mornings or evenings at
Dugi, I was helping my Hooyo(Mom) and Abo(dad), at the fleet store they owned. It was a small
but very convenient for all my people. My Abo(dad), an older brothers, were hard workers. They
worked long, sleepless hours to make money. It's not like America. You know where You get a
paycheck either weekly, bi weekly, or salary.
My Abo and Hooyo worked hard so me and my sisters can have an education. I lived in a small
house with two bedrooms. It wasn't big, but it worked for us. We had a maid that lived with us,
and she took care of us when my Hooyo and Abo weren't around when they were working at the
fleet.
When I was around 11 a civil war broke out in Somalia. My parents store was destroyed, and
we had to flee the country. We fled there and we went to Kenya, where there were lots of
refugee camps. After staying there for almost four years, my parents made a hard choice. into
sending me, my brother and my sister to the states where they wanted us to have a better
education.
Ayann Hodleh 3:12
So, how did your parents send you guys here? Like, they stayed behind? Who did you guys
come here with?
Fowsiya Hassan 3:23
There were a group of Americans that worked at a church who were helping people at the
refugee camp get asylums.
They helped us come to America.
Ayann Hodleh 3:40
Before we get into your transportation of like how you got here, and your experience can tell me
a little bit about the refugee camp, how it was staying there, what kind of place you stayed in,
did you meet any people and then what was like the difference between back home in Somalia
Mogadishu and the refugee camps?
Fowsiya Hassan 4:05
We stayed in like, these tent kind of things. There were multiple scattered all over, like land. I
would say the difference is, you're in a tent full of almost 15 or 20 different people that you
probably don't know, that are all fleeing the same country. And it's not like my house that I grew
up in it was just me, my family members and our maid. It was a very crowded area where there
weren't many places to sleep. There weren't many beds that were offered so some of us had to
sleep on the ground at nights. There wasn't enough space for us to play like you would play in
our house. So we would always play outside in the open land. And just play like kickball or
somethin that was our version?
Ayann Hodleh 5:06
So, um, can you tell me a little bit about any relationships, friendships that you had either back
home and that you had to like, leave or that you made while you're at the refugee camps?
Fowsiya Hassan 5:23
Yeah, I met some friends that were in the refugee camp with me. Her name was Khadija. She
was around my age. She only had like a year and a half on me. I met a boy that I really liked.
But he couldn't come to America like me and my siblings, because they didn't allow him an
asylum. Which was really sad because only a few people would get selected from every kind of
refugee camp to get asylum.
Ayann Hodleh 6:03
That's pretty sad.
Can you tell me a little bit about when you were selected to come to America and how your
transportation here was and I know it's different back home than here. So like, your feelings how
you felt about it. I felt you mentioned how you left your mom and your dad.
Fowsiya Hassan 6:33
Some of my siblings. Wow, so hard. It was. When we were getting selected. I didn't really know
how the process was because my Hooyo(mom) and Abo(dad) dealt with that. All I know is when
my mother came to us and told us I assumed that my entire family was leaving America. But she
broke it down to me, my sister, and brother that it was only us three going there. We have
family in the United States. So that's where we were going to go. The transportation that day
when we were leaving was a very interesting one because of the fact that I've never been on a
plane. I didn't know how a plane operated. It was all something new to me and different. So it
was kind of very scary. Imagine being 15 and didn't know how that thing operated. How was it
even in the air? And it was just me, my sister, my brother. So we didn't have any older parents
with us or anybody older of age at the time.
Ayann Hodleh 7:58
Can you tell me bit of how when you flew here, I know like the malls and the food courts in the
airport were probably different. Can you tell me a little bit about that. Were you surprised?
Fowsiya Hassan 8:13
I was very surprsied due to the fact that me and my even my two older siblings were still under
age. So we had a flight attendant, who was kind to us throughout our entire flight. She was on
joint flights with us wherever we went. Obviously, the food was different. And we didn't really
touch anything. Because we didn't know what was halal and what wasn't, so it was kind of we
didn't really eat other than drink and maybe have like, chips. I think that's the first time we had
chips.
Ayann Hodleh 8:55
So when you came to America, where did you first come to and how did it feel adapting to
staying with somebody that was your family, but you don't really know them before. It was just
you and your siblings.
Fowsiya Hassan 9:12
Um, we went to Minnesota. And at the time, it was a very low population for Somali people but
my uncle was there with his wife and his two kids, and obviously not knowing them it was it was
kind of scary, but obviously their family so we got used to it. They became additional siblings,
because we stayed with them for about 10 years until my parents and rest of my siblings came.
Adapting to a climate especially like Minnesota, the first time I think I seen snow. I freaked out.
Because I've never been in such a place.
Ayann Hodleh 10:03
It's true. Even people that live in America that don't live in Minnesota are very surprised by our
weather. Um, can you tell me a little about when you came here you were 15, so that means
you went to high school here, correct?
Fowsiya Hassan 10:19
Yes I started a sophomore year, I think towards the middle ish. I really can't remember. But it
was sophomore year of high school. Um, it was a very different type of school. From when I was
around. We had like four class periods, and that was interesting. I was in ESL because I didn't
know much English. So up until I graduated here. People were very, they're kind of rude.
Ayann Hodleh 11:06
Would you say that the schooling is harder here or back home?
Fowsiya Hassan 11:13
I would say that schooling here is different and a little hard, but I was good at math and science.
English wasn't my subject.
Gym was my subject too I was very fast runner.
By the age of 17, I got my first job. It was the YWCA. It was the first time I've ever had to
balance school and work at the same time. I had to learn the hard way, how to kind of balance
those two because I wanted to help my uncle and aunt who are supporting me so that we can
help my family back home as well.
Ayann Hodleh 12:06
So I know for my family that we're always sending money back home. So is that basically the
same thing that you were doing? You would have to basically just work for everybody that was
back home you aren't really working for yourself. So how did that make you feel as a child?
Fowsiya Hassan 12:22
Yeah, especially at 17 I think I only kept like $30 to my name for most of my checks. We send
about 100 or more from my check, my siblings, aunts and uncles money. So we send money
back to support our loved ones back home.
Ayann Hodleh 12:46
Okay, can you tell me about how when your parents came here and how you also got into the
business that you have right now.
Fowsiya Hassan 12:59
Yeah.
I believe I was 21 when the rest of my family members and my parents came. It was a very it
was a very exciting time. But I mean it's also very sad because it was about six years that I
haven't seen my mom or dad, my brother and sisters. So it was a happy and sad day.
uhm so around when I was 25 years old
My older brother and sister who came to America with me, decided to open up a family daycare
that I worked at. I got into a very bad accident at the time and the settlement money that I got
from it. I decided to buy the family daycare because my older siblings are opening more
locations for themselves. I wanted to get into the business as well. The way my siblings got into
the business was that they didn't really finish high school. They were just very hard workers.
And they decided to open up a childcare center. And that's how I got into the business as well.
After I finished school, did some college, I decided to take over.
Ayann Hodleh 14:28
How was it being a business owner at the age of 25? Like what were some difficulties that you
faced? Did you get help from your family?
Fowsiya Hassan 14:40
Um, I would say there, there's a lot of difficulties that comes with being, you know, a business
owner at the time, especially 25. My brother and sister were very helpful. The hard thing I would
say would be, you know, since I'm a new business owner, having other parents trust me,
especially with not knowing me. Like they know my siblings. I'm earning their trust to come to
my child care center was difficult at the time
Ayann Hodleh 15:18
Is the reason why you did not finish college because that the child care center.
Fowsiya Hassan 15:25
Yes.
Ayann Hodleh 15:32
How did you feel about not finishing college because you were telling me how you like school
when you were back home and how your parents like worked really hard for you to get a good
education.
Fowsiya Hassan 15:45
I wasn't really upset about it. I mean I went there for two years. I just think that I had other
priorities. And I obviously had to grow up pretty fast. So at the time, it just wasn't something for
me.
Ayann Hodleh 16:00
Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your life now? I know now you're married and you
have kids.
Can you tell me a little bit about that and the childcare center?
Fowsiya Hassan 16:12
Yeah. So, um, I met my husband. right around the time that you know, I started becoming a
business owner. We got married after two years, aroundwhen I was 27 we got married and I
had my first child around 28.
it was very hard balancing, you know, a new marriage, a new child, and also a new business.
And it was just something all new to me. And obviously, I had an amazing, you know, family to
support me and help me with everything. So that made it pretty, pretty smooth. a funny story is
my husband was also working at my siblings childcare at the time in the office. So you could
already see how much of a taboo that was. Because we don't do dating within our culture. So,
we would always kind of try flirting here and there at the time, my parents, and my older brother,
weren't really fond of me wanting to get married to him to...to his tribe. Within our culture, you
know, tribes are really big thing. And that causes some people not to get married, because
they'll be like, "Oh, so and so is Dhulbahante(a tribe) or so and so is Majarteen(another tribe)" or
who we are and then like, they don't want a certain tribes mixing with other tribes, so they didn't
want me marry him because of his tribe. I had to really fight and defend for him so that I can
marry him.
Ayann Hodleh 18:10
Can you tell me a little bit more about why is this so important?
for a woman to marry within her tribe, I guess compared to a man?
Fowsiya Hassan 18:23
Well, for me being a woman, when you marry a man, you when you marry him, your children
will end up taking his tribe, rather than your tribe or, you know, yeah, like example would be
when you get married, you would take your husband's last name, and your children would take
his last name. We do do that with names and also tribes, your your tribe he's his tribe. And your
children will be his tribe. Make sense?
Ayann Hodleh 19:03
Yeah. So basically why it's more strict on women to marry a man from a good tribe is because
you're, it's going to go from generation to generation. It's going to be your kids, and then your
grandkids and so forth, so forth and so on.
Fowsiya Hassan 19:22
That's only of you are a male.
So if I have daughter they take my husbands tribe right, and whoever they marry their kids will
take the person they marry tribe. Whereas if I have a son my sons will carruy on my husbands
tribe legacy.
Ayann Hodleh 19:51
What do you think that? I know tribes was such a big deal back home. It's a lot of the reasons
why a lot of wars broke out, a lot of fighting happened. Do you think and I know it's pretty strong
within like my parents and your generation, do you think it's going to be like that in the future?
Fowsiya Hassan 20:16
From the looks of, you know, kids around your generation now, it's slightly might be, but I don't
think it would strongly be the way we were sort of are per se.
We were very strong on our ideals, and who we were going to get married to, but within your
generation, it doesn't, it doesn't look the same.
Ayann Hodleh 20:45
Okay, um,
can you tell me a little bit about your life now?
How many kids do you have?
Do you have other businesses and so forth.
Fowsiya Hassan 21:00
Yeah, I have three daughters, two are twins. And a daughter who's the oldest, two boys. One
being the youngest of the mom. And the other one being the second oldest. Um, so I have a
total of five children. And we live, we live in Minnesota to start out and we actually stayed semi
within a Minneapolis area. Um, I have two child cares now. They're pretty, pretty busy, keep me
busy. I'm always on my toes with them. Um, I've been in the childcare business for about 10-12
years now, I would say um, my recent one which I opened back in 2015 and then my first one
being I bought from my siblings.
So you got to experience the good parts of Somalia before the Civil War broke out. Do you plan
on living in Minnesota forever? Do you plan on taking your family back home? Have your kids
visit
My children are kind of my too young right now to remember and experience there. And I do
plan on taking them sometime in the near future. I do want them to know the roots that I came
from, where I was raised, where I spent, you know, most of up until my teenage years growing
up, I want them to also know refugee camp I spent most of my time. I just want them to, you
know, know where I came from as well. Cuz they were born in America, so they haven't
experienced, you know, the struggle that I had to go through and get here. And I really want
them to forever cherish that whenever they get the opportunity to remember when I tell them
Ayann Hodleh 23:18
So in the near future what do you plan on doing business wise? Are you planning on going back
to school? ,
Fowsiya Hassan 23:28
um, yeah, I currently went, I'm currently back in school. Um, I want to explore more into the
business world. I want to open up a mental health clinic for you know, our fellow people our
fellow Somalis. And because it's such a non spoken thing, within our culture, mental health and I
want to explore, you know, just kind of grow on that Um, I've been, you know, studying
psychology, doing some social work stuff. Just so you know, I could expand my horizons. And
yeah, I hope to, you know, open a clinic very soon. Hopefully, I would say in like the next maybe
two years, hopefully, um, I still want to continue managing, you know, the daycares, but maybe
have some help and more support so I can manage more than just the daycare and the mental
clinic as well.
Ayann Hodleh 24:40
I like how you touched on how mental healh, it isn't really talked about in our Somali community,
especially in Minnesota right now. There's a whole outbreak within our people that are
depressed, have anxiety, addictions, drinking, which is probably something you're really
surprised about, because I'm not really surprised about it because I just grew up around it. But
looking at it from like our parents point of view, my parents point of view, like your generation
point of view, it's probably crazy. A little bit about that.
Fowsiya Hassan 25:21
Um, yeah, I would say, exactly. That's, it's not a really spoken thing. Especially, you know, those
who have dealt with the war around my generation. Depression isn't talked about, especially, I
mean, imagine you are living a perfect life one minute, and a war happens the next and now
you're being told, you have to flee your home, flee the only place that you knew and you are not
voluntarily leaving. You're being forced to leave. It's very depressing. You know, I would say I
have some depression. And that's why I'm exploring this. It's not spoken about. So it's you
know, for your generation, as well, you know, the opioid addictions that I've been hearing about.
It's very eye opening sometimes that as an older generation, why are you not dealing with our
own problems? why are not dealing with our children's problems and helping them cope. And
we're not, you know, being open enough with them, understanding what's going on in their lives.
I mean, sure, they haven't, you know, lived like something that we had to deal with a civil war.
But I mean, Minneapolis is kind of very dangerous place. You know, you never know there's
people being killed. gun violence is spiking up in the city. And that's something I want to talk
about more. You know, with the whole opioid epidemic that's happening, you know, all these
children their problems are being spiked from somewhere. And I know that growing up, even
with, you know, with my parents, if something bothered me, it was really, we weren't supposed
to talk about it. We weren't taught to express our feelings and you know, just express what's
hurting us. What's making us sad, what's getting us upset, we're just more so taught like, you
know, hold on and hustle. You know, just like, get more in tune with your religion. And I mean,
don't get me wrong. Getting in tune with your religion is one thing, but it won't always solve
some things, especially when someone can't express how they feel, and talk to others. I just
want, you to know, to help children out there and adults as well to, you know, find a place that
they could express themselves and feel comfortable talking to somebody that's going to help
when they need it, you know, just a go to place where they know they are welcome. And they,
are not judged based on what they're going through, and not just told, you know, go read Quran,
it'll make it better. I mean, do it Yes, but everyone needs someone to talk to. And I want to be
able to be that person that anybody can kind of come in contact with. It could be the clinic, you
know. I want people to be able to say "oh, hey, I know a great clinic. Fowsiyas is a great,
amazing place. You should go there. She's got people that are there and They'll help you with
anything, they're open ears, they are anonymous, a mental zone." I just want to be able to be
there for everybody.
Ayann Hodleh 29:05
I really like what you're trying to do for the community, I definitely feel like we need a lot more of
that, especially in Minnesota, because of this whole epidemic that's going on. And this whole, all
these mental illnesses that people are, like kids my age, and even adults are coming out and
talking about because a lot of things within the small community is not talked about, they just
think oh let me just cover up this persons mistakes and shame, but that's definitely not working
out. And I think we're finally starting to understand and see that. So I really appreciate what
you're doing for the community. I really appreciate you doing this interview for me,
Is there anything that you want to add or, you know, that covered it?
Fowsiya Hassan 29:46
Ah, I think we covered it all. I really, you know, this was an amazing interview to you know,
getting to know me, What I plan on doing near future, what I've been through and I just
appreciate it.
Ayann Hodleh 30:08
Well thank you and good luck with everything that you're trying to do
Fowsiya Hassan 30:12
You as well.
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Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal... Show more
This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here.
Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal?
Preenon Huq:
00:13
Um, so my favorite is chicken with rice. It sounds kind of basic,
but it's not just the regular like chicken with rice. Um, I don't
know the actual word for it because it's like a Ban-, a- a dish
from Bangladesh, but basically it's like almost the color of it is
like an orange, golden chicken, and it has sauce. Like a curry on
top of it. And then Porata is, my favorite for breakfast and that
goes with the chicken or you can do rice. But Porata's like a
bread. It's got like a lot of butter in it, inbetween like different
layers, to make it.
Preenon Huq:
00:49
I just cam back from Bangladesh and I had those everyday at
like 6am, which is like, ridiculous amount you know. But thatthat's definitely my favorite meal.
Sydney Baker:
00:57
Who makes it best?
Preenon Huq:
00:59
Um. Well, when I was in Bangladesh, like having it fresh, making
everything fresh, um... It's kinda weird when I was in
Bangladesh, they would say like, "Oh we made this dish for
you". But really like, there were servants there. And so those
servants were making the dish, right? And so like people would
say like, "Oh yeah so and so makes it best". But then you like, go
there and yo- they don't cook at all like, it was like their servant
that was making it. So it's not- I thought it was really interesting
that, you're kinda taking credit for it. They're obviously not
making anything.
Preenon Huq:
01:30
Um, my grandma's sister did. She like, put it on a pan and made
it. But when it came to like, rolling the actual dough and
everything, the servant did that. So like, both of them kinda did
do it but, really like, I think the servant does like all the work for
that.
Sydney Baker:
01:46
How often do you go back to Bangladesh?
Preenon Huq:
01:48
Uh, that was the first time going since I was like 2. I'm 22 now
so, you know 20 years and, I wanna go more frequently like,
now that I know what it's like, um... What kinda culture there is
and I wish I got to see more of like, how much it's changed and
developed over the last couple years, just because it's been so
dramatic, the changes. Like, my grandma was saying that when
she was growing up, poor people didn't even have clothes. Now
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you see them with cell phones and they're fully clothed and
everything. Like their whole life has changed, so much.
Sydney Baker:
02:19
Who do you stay with when you go?
Preenon Huq:
02:21
Um, because it was my first time going, but we stayed with my
grandma's sister. They live there half the year and then they live
in the US half the year.
Sydney Baker:
02:30
Very nice. Where did you go to high school?
Preenon Huq:
02:32
I went to Armstrong High School.
Sydney Baker:
02:34
Okay, uh what was your favorite subject and why?
Preenon Huq:
02:38
Oh, well, that's kind of a tough one I mean gym class is the best
like, but, in terms of actual subjects... I really liked economics,
um just because it's something that's always interested me. Like
paying attention to like how much the world is connected
financially, that's also something I've always been into when I
was a kid, is finances. But, yeah that was definitely my favorite
class. It wasn't necessarily the class I did the best in, but it
would- definitely was my favorite class.
Sydney Baker:
03:09
Uh, did you have any favorite teachers and what kind of an
impact did they have on you?
Preenon Huq:
03:13
Um, yeah there is this one teacher um, her name was Kaya
Peters. Now she's Kaya Herd. But she, was adopted and I think
originally she was from Korea, if I remember. But basically she
was my favorite just 'cause she really like, understood the
students and related to them a lot, which I appreciated a lot.
Preenon Huq:
03:36
Um, there's a teacher there, James Redelsheimer, after I
graduated me and him connected very well. A lot of us- me and
him have both like the same drive, we have a lot of the same
things in common and that's just something um, we just kind of
realized after um, I graduated. And so we have a really strong
relationship right now. Um, and I talk to him on- frequently on a
regular basis. I go back to his class and talk about like personal
finance, like how to pay off your student loans, those kinda
things.
Preenon Huq:
04:04
Um, that's something that I was successful in doing and so it's
really like, my way of giving back, to the community. And
especially like, it's nice being like a person of color to be able to
go into the classrooms and tell students like "Yes, you can go to
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college, and yes it is- you are able to work and be able to pay it
off. Not necessarily the case for everybody but like, based on
your situation you know... take advantage of what- what's given
to you".
Sydney Baker:
04:29
Were there a lot of people of color at your school?
Preenon Huq:
04:31
No. Um, there's definitely more now, like, every time I go back I
see more students of color. Um, there was students of color,
not to say that there wasn't any, there was. But, I wouldn't say
that they necessarily mixed a lot. Um, and then you always saw
like... sorry.
Sydney Baker:
04:50
That's okay.
Preenon Huq:
04:51
The students that are like coke you know and just- (laughing).
Um, but you always like see like, you know, students of color
were like, usually in the regular classes, where like you know, all
the white students were and AP classes. And I just- that was just
like something that I didn't really like you know, 'cause it just
felt like a different type of segregation.
Sydney Baker:
05:13
Mmm (affirmative).
Preenon Huq:
05:14
Um, and you know I just- it doesn't- like they would say like, "Oh
well these students are doing this and stuff in class", but like, I
mean I would say that were all like, you know the same, we all
have the capabilities and stuff so why, or what did those
students have that the other students of color didn't have?
Sydney Baker:
05:32
What was your friend group like?
Preenon Huq:
05:34
Uh, mainly white. Um, most of my friends are white, um. Like I
was- I remember one kid in like seventh grade said like, he slept
over at one of our other friends who's black, house and he was
like "that was the first time I ever slept over at somebody who's
black's house". Like, just kinda different I thought that was likethat- that stuck with me my whole life. You know, hearing that,
um... but all my friends, um, majority of them are white. I do
have a lot of friends that- of, um, that are- like of color. But
usually they're more in like the Bangalian community, or I, hang
out with them in like, different crowds and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
06:11
Um, I would say I was probably one of the most well-connected
students like, at my college. Sorry, my high school. And, so a lot
of people like- and maybe it helped too because I was a person
of color that they can connect well with me, but then also I hang
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out with a lot of students that are white. But it's not something
that I really thought about really. Like it honestly, like- I didn't
think about it much until I got to like college, then that's really
when I realized like wow you know my- my friend group was all
white people, you know, it's a whole different- it's a whole
different friend group and it's so different talking to them and
like what you can and what you can't talk about as well.
Sydney Baker:
06:49
And why was that, what was it about college that changed
things for you?
Preenon Huq:
06:51
Well, most of like my friends um, were, um, of asian
background. A lot of them were Hmong. Um, a lot of them came
from different groups and um, and also the schools that they
came from. A lot of them came from like intercity like, St. Paul,
North Minneapolis where it's dominated by um, people of color
or it's- there's more of a mix.
Preenon Huq:
07:14
First there's like, where I'm from the suburbs even like, another
school in our district was Cooper. That one had more students
of color and you would hear like, about how different it was.
Um, based on like that, where like a- at the same thing, lot of
the IB kids were students that where white, but the regular
classes were a lot of students of color. And so, that's wherethat's where the difference really comes and you know, just
hearing everybody's story and like, they're just so used to
having everybody and a lot of them actually had really different
opinions and situations with people who are white.
Preenon Huq:
07:49
Where I had the complete opposite, you know. And even like
my friends who were of color, they didn't really talk about the
things about like, you know, oppression, racism, segregation. I
mean you hear it every now and then but you just really didn't
feel it until I got to college an then everybody's talking about it,
and then you realize like wow, okay, now I see. I'm more open
and aware of every- all of that.
Sydney Baker:
08:15
Mm-hmm (Affirmative). Did you ever have your friends over, to
your house in high school?
Preenon Huq:
08:18
Yeah, but not- not often. You know, my m- my mom was like,
she didn't really like having friends over. Not like that- it was
because of like, that they're white or anything like that, they
just- she just preferred not to. So usually I would like, go to their
houses.
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Sydney Baker:
08:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were some of their reactions
when they would come over for the first time?
Preenon Huq:
08:37
Um. I think a lot of them, were just- like it was different, my- my
house smells different, you know. The food smells different so, I
think that was pretty surprising. Also like, just like the artwork in
my house, like I was showing you, my mom's got like a lot of art
um, my mom's like an artist and so she's got like a lot of
paintings and um, just like her taste too is- is very different
from, it's not quite the same as like when you open up a
magazine and you're look- you're like looking and what's trends
are in 2018, 2019. It's very unique to her personality and if you
go in to a lot of people who are like also muslim like, people
who are Arab, um Somale, African, and then people from Asia,
like a lot of their houses will look similar to our house.
Sydney Baker:
09:21
Did you have any muslim friends?
Preenon Huq:
09:23
Um. Honestly, at college, or I mean at high school no I don't
think so. I have like- trying to think maybe one or two. But not
really. I mean every now and then I would see like another
student at my high school at the mosque and then I'd be like,
"Oh okay As-Salam-u-Alaikum" like I didn't even know that
they're family was muslim. So that was kinda cool but in terms
of like, talking about being muslim and stuff, no. I definitely did
not have that.
Sydney Baker:
09:55
Was that a conversation that you would have with people when
you first met them?
Preenon Huq:
09:58
Uh, no (laughing). That's definitely not something you just bring
up. Now that I'm like older yes for sure, like it's so much easier
to talk about it and stuff. But after like post 9/11 like that's
definitely something you did not wanna talk about. Students
that- they don't really know what's going on or what they arethey've affiliated Islam with terrorism and you just don't wanna
like, bring that up in those situations and stuff. Which is
unfortunate right? Like I mean, nobody should have to go
through that and, everybody should be able to express their
religion freely. So that- that's kinda disappointing you know I
wish that- that's something that I was able to do is, you know,
talk about my cultures and talk about like um, my religion and
be kinda more proud of like the religion that I am. I think that,
you know, 9/11 really robbed me personally of that um, from
like, from- when I was growing up.
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Sydney Baker:
10:47
Did you ever have any like specific bad experiences in high
school, when people found out that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
10:53
Um, I mean like, every- I mean people have kinda joked about
like terrorism and- and Islam and stuff and like that you just
kinda like have to tell them like, "Oh you know that's- that's
unacceptable" or you know like, "Hey it's not like that" you
know. And that's hard because, you know, I think that they
realize it but then you know, at the same time they've known
you for a while so then they think it's okay. Most of the time
that I've ever had that conversation, I mean I had that
conversation a couple years ago with somebody that I was really
close with, and you know, they apologized and they were sorry,
you know. They- they didn't realize you know.
Preenon Huq:
11:31
I think that a lot of people well they're- they're kinda stuck in
their ways right? And so I always give the benefit of the doubt
at first. I'm usually a person, I'll let like one slide. But then I
kinda let you know and if I- if you do it again then it's kinda like,
okay were-were this isn't gonna work for me. And um, I'm sorry
but this is you know like- if you're not gonna respect my views
and who I am as a person and also my religion, and that's
something that's like just- you can't really- you shouldn't be
joking about and if you don't understand that after one person
tells you, especially somebody so close to you, I think that it's
best if were not together you know.
Sydney Baker:
12:06
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Preenon Huq:
12:08
Like, I- I mean, that's kinda one thing about me is that,
especially growing up in like a white neighborhood, you have toyou have to like educate people and you have to give them the
benefit of the doubt. And, that's something that a lot of people
don't wanna do and I understand why they don't want to. You
know they've had, um, so many situations where white people
have gotten away with a lot of things. And I totally agree with
that, but then at the same time it's like, I live in this
neighborhood, I grew up with these people, I know this is thethis is the life that I'm gonna be living. And so, it's best you
know, if I give them the opportunity to learn and grow,
especially young people you know.
Preenon Huq:
12:46
Like, some people they have no idea what they're talking about
you know, they're- they're saying things just because they hear
it from the news or somewhere else. Kids and stuff and so then I
educate them and I've had mainly positive reactions towards
everybody, especially parents too. They're always wanting to
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learn more about my culture and my family. Which I like a lot
and I appreciate that a lot. And it's nice because you know, in
the future, um, they will have a positive- hopefully they'll have a
positive experience with other people from my community and
my culture as well.
Preenon Huq:
13:19
But that's also like a lot of pressure right? You know that'sthat's a lot of weight on your shoulders, you're representing
your own community, 24/7 and you're the only person. And
that's so hard because people ask me like, "What do you think
about Islam and what do you think about you know, this and
what does your family do and that", and I'm just like, "My
family's not that religious", I shouldn't be the one representing
all of Islam for this whole community in Plymouth. And, that's
one thing that I've- I've found, you know, really difficult because
sure I wanna learn more about Islam and I wanna learn and be
able to- to share that with others. But at the same time like, I'mI'm not an expert. I probably will never be an expert so I'm not
the person that they should be asking. And that's- and I was
telling Esteban last week, that you know, everybody in Islam,
you could- somebody who practices, um Islam that's S-SSomali, and then somebody who's from Bangladesh, I mean
there could be completely different in terms of their religion.
Sydney Baker:
14:17
And so you said that your family is pretty non-traditional?
Preenon Huq:
14:22
Yeah, were non-traditional. I would say- I mean, my- our family
um, you know, we- we don't pray five times a day, uh, we
definitely celebrate Eid which is twice a year, once at the end of
Ramadan, my family fasts for Ramadan. We do all of those
things. In terms of- I think that's like kind of the big one. My
mom doesn't wear a hijab or anything, um so that's- that's you
know, that kinda gives you an idea of what our family is like.
Sydney Baker:
14:52
Do you think that they moved to this community because
they're non-traditional or do you think that they're nontraditional because they moved here?
Preenon Huq:
14:59
Uh, no, um. I think moving to the US has like made us nontraditional or a little bit more. I don't think my parents really- uh
maybe my mom did, but I really don't think that neither of them
really grew up in that traditional uh, very strict Islamic um,
religion. And I think that makes a huge difference and then also
like living in this community, I wouldn't say that, that's made
much of a difference, because I see all the other uh, Bangali kids
and their families also grew up also in white neighborhoods. It's
actually very common for all the Bangali kids to live in suburban
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white neighborhoods like all of us growing up we all lived in
similar neighborhoods. Um, which is really interesting as well.
Sydney Baker:
15:43
Why is that?
Preenon Huq:
15:44
I think a school, you know education's number one, super
important. Um, my dad- originally we lived in Crystal, my sister
went to New Hope Elementary and uh, one of the students
called the teacher a really bad name and my sister went home
and told my dad what happened and he like moved her out of
that school, and put her in private school. So she- she actually
went to a Christian school, a Catholic school. I went to a catholic
school for a year- two years, but I think my sister went for four
and my other sister went for almost six or seven. So- (laughing)
that was a really big change for us you know, going to a catholic
school, private school. Um, and then we eventually moved over
to Plymouth, where the school districts are really well- are
good. So we could go to the public schools.
Sydney Baker:
16:36
What was your experience like at the Catholic school?
Preenon Huq:
16:38
Well you just really don't realize what's like happening right?
Like, I mean I don't really- like I remember getting like, the
cross, um and then we'd have like, the beads. And I don't- I can't
even remember what that was for really, during prayer time.
Um, and then my neighbors across the street, they're really
religious catholic. Um, and I would go over there all the time for
dinner and we'd pray before dinner. And I would just pray the
same way as them. So, just in a way like I felt like- and then, a
lot of my friends, they took me to church growing up. So I felt
like I was so like- almost growing up like Christian in a sense but
obviously not fully growing up with Christian. I just learned a lot
about like um, being Christian from those different situations
that I had in life and events.
Sydney Baker:
17:26
So you used to live in England too?
Preenon Huq:
17:28
Uh, well I like, was born there, moved here when I was like one.
So I've been here my whole life. And then we go back and visit
pretty frequently. Usually try to go once a year um, once every
two years.
Sydney Baker:
17:41
How does it compare to Minnesota?
Preenon Huq:
17:43
Oh, it's so different (laughing). It's just like big city. Kinda like
New York. Public transportation and people are focused on
themselves, moving really fast. Um, so much to do like lots of
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um, fun things. The Isla- Islamic community's huge there. Um,
lots of people who are Indian and Bangladeshi. So that's nice as
well.
Sydney Baker:
18:04
Would you say that it's more diverse there than it is here?
Preenon Huq:
18:07
Absolutely, for sure. Um. If you're comparing like New York to
uh, London, then th- i would say probably New York's kinda momore diverse. But it's hard to say, I mean London is so diverse
these days. It's completely changed over the last, you know, 20
years. And here like, it's- it's gotten a lot better like, my sister
she's nine and I can just tell by the names of all the students
that are in the class, like, how diverse it is you know. It's not like
'John' and- and 'Megan' and 'Marissa' that are in here class like
it's- it's all these different names that are very unique, of all
different backgrounds. And a lot of her friends are from
different backgrounds and we see them like- which I think is so
cool you know. Just 'cause, that definitely wasn't the case when
I was growing up.
Sydney Baker:
18:58
Did you ever bring any of your friends to the mosque with you?
Preenon Huq:
19:02
Uh yeah, I brought a couple of friends here and there. Um, even
one of my co-workers last year, he was about the same age as
me. He actually fasted for Ramadan. So that was really cool and
he was Jewish and so that was really interesting you know
because, obviously with like all like the things that go on it's- it's
crazy that around the world there's so much conflict, and then
you know, in the US like, you s- you see like muslims and Jewish
people you know, fasting together for Ramadan. Just
completely different, you know.
Preenon Huq:
19:31
And, I have brought a couple of friends to the mosque. I've
brought a couple friends like Bengali parties and um, brought
them to events and stuff and they- they enjoyed- it's definitely a
different um- it's something that they would never get, you
know else where like- recently one of my best friends, my room
mate from college came to Bangladesh with me. So that was
pretty amazing I mean, you know, he's a 6'4", white, American
and in a country that the average height is 5'6". And no one,
who's not from there goes and visits that country. So that was
like super cool I mean he stood out like crazy. But he had a great
time.
Sydney Baker:
20:09
Where's home for you?
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Preenon Huq:
20:10
Uh, Minnesota for sure. You know this feels like home. I know
like, Plymouth, Minnesota specifically. Like I know so many
people here, my friends, my family, the community members.
You know, being involved with school makes me even more
connected. Um, this is definitely my home. I- I don't think I ever
go anywhere without seeing somebody I know and I actually
love that you know, it's just nice to always know that there's
somebody there that you know.
Sydney Baker:
20:50
Could you reflect on a time that you may have felt discriminated
against for being muslim?
Preenon Huq:
20:59
Um... definitely like post 9/11. You know like telling kids at
school that I was like muslim you know not knowing like- that
like it was like muslims. But I wouldn't even call them muslims
that- that did the terrorist attack that represented and said that
they were muslims and then like everything with the Iraq war
and stuff. I don't remember like specifically, I just remember
going to school and telling kids like, "Oh yeah, I'm muslim" and
they'd be like, "Are you a terrorist?" You know and just kinda
giving me like- like, "No, no I'm not".
Preenon Huq:
21:35
And it's just hard to understand why they would like, think that
way. Or why they would affiliate those two just because, you
know there's so much terrorism n- not too long ago, with like
KKK members and they represent- they say that they represent
Christianity but nobody says like, "Oh yeah like KKK and
Christiani- or Christians are terrorists". You know, they don't
ever put those two together. So it's hard for me to understand
you know, why are you saying that muslims and terrorism go
together. And you know, that's the thing is that religion doesn't
and terrorism doesn't go together. So, that was really hard
growing up. And then I just stopped telling kids that I was
muslim.
Sydney Baker:
22:16
What are some positive experiences that you had?
Preenon Huq:
22:24
Um. I just think like, I- I don't really know like specifically in the
sense of like, situations where I'm- like the one- two years ago
when my co-worker, wanted to like spend- you know,
participate in Ramadan. That was super big and that was
awesome. I don't really like, blame people from my high school
that didn't participate because I didn't really share that I was
muslim.
Preenon Huq:
22:49
I mean, even my best friend from like, seventh grade I
remember- I think we were like in eleventh grade in the
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summer and I was like, uh- we were trying to find something to
eat and I was like, "Do you got anything?" And he's like, "Yeah
we have pizza rolls", and I was like, "Oh what kinda are they?"
And he's like, "Pepperoni", and I was like "Oh I can't eat those",
and he's like, "You can't even taste the pepperoni- barely you
can taste it", and I was like, "Well I don't eat- I don't eat
pepperoni because I don't like it, it's because I'm muslim and I
can't ". And he was like, "What?". So like, I don't know if he
forgot or if he just didn't know.
Preenon Huq:
23:22
But it was like, you know, a big moment and kind of a shock
because we- and then- and then he remembered you know,
like, "Oh okay". And so, he was like, "Oh I just always thought
you didn't like pepperoni", 'cause he'd always see me like take
the pepperoni off- his parents like ordered Jet's Pizza every two
weeks. And so all the time I was over there, id always like take it
off and stuff. So that's probably why he kinda thought that I just
didn't like it.
Sydney Baker:
23:47
Did his parents know that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
23:49
I don't know honestly I can't- I'm not sure if they did or not.
That's like another thing you know, a lot of like muslims, I mean
like, the- the level of pork is huge and you'll see that like there's
people who will not touch pork. Um, not my boss now but my
previous boss was muslim and he wouldn't touch alcohol. I
mean if he- it doesn't matter if it's a- in the bottle, if it's in the
case, you try to hand him a bottle he will not touch it. Same
thing with pork. When he's at the grocery store he won't you
know, touch it, nothing.
Preenon Huq:
24:17
Uh, then there's people you know like, they open up a pizza,
they'll see it's pork, they'll shut it and they'll be like "Okay, I'm
not having any". And then there's like me, who I'm just like, I
feel like that's gonna go to waste, you know, whoever ordered it
didn't realize that I- you know, didn't ask ahead of time and as
long as it's not like baked into the cheese where like to the
point where I can't get it out, I will always like just take it off,
and eat the pizza. And that's definitely very different from other
people. And I just do that because like, I don't wanna waste it,
you know but if the choice comes, I'll just tell them, like "Oh, no
I- you know, can you order a cheese pizza for me?". And, that's
usually how it goes. And nobody like makes me pay extra or
anything you know, to order my own pizza. I always offer to buy
it you know cos, they have to order a whole 'nother pizza
usually for me.
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Sydney Baker:
25:16
So what do you like more about living in Minnesota, than you
do about living in England? [crosstalk 00:25:22] Or are you just
spending time in England?
Preenon Huq:
25:23
I just like how small it is in- in Minnesota like, no matter where
you are, it's- it's kinda like Augsburg. Like, in versus going to the
[inaudible 00:25:33] you know you can go to the [inaudible
00:25:35] and you can do a lot of stuff and there's a lot of
opportunity and you can make a big change and everything.
But, it's hard to like, get known on campus, it's hard to like,
make a difference, it's hard to like, get the resources that you
want. Um, where like, in Augsburg you know, if you try really
hard, you can become known on campus, you can work with
others. There is- they're smaller but they- they do make a huge
impact and I just feel like that's how Minnesota is versus
London right.
Preenon Huq:
25:58
If I work really hard in Minnesota, I feel like anything is possible.
It's small enough where I can get connected in different
communities. Everybody kinda knows everybody in a sense um,
from their hometown and stuff and that's just not the case in
London. London's way too big. And so like, you can kind of like
the express- the expression is like, you can be like a shark in a
pond or you can be like, you know, a fish in the ocean like- and I
just rather be like, well known and well connected and have
opportunity for myself and others as well and, it's kinda cool
'cause like, anything I put my mind to I feel like, there's a way I
know somebody connected well that I can make an impact in a
small or big community if I want to. Just like it- it's very endless,
the opportunities.
Sydney Baker:
26:45
Do you have family in England?
Preenon Huq:
26:46
Yeah, like all my dad's uh, side lives there, my cousins live there.
Um, and their kids and everything so yeah, there is a lot of
people there.
Sydney Baker:
26:54
Why England?
Preenon Huq:
26:56
Um, my grandpa was part of the Bangladesh Embassy I think it
was, and then he moved there and then obviously took my dad
and all of his siblings to England. And then my dad uh, lived
there ever since he was eight. And then, lived there up until he
was about- I think he was about 30 or 35 or 36. So almost 30
years.
Sydney Baker:
27:20
And so then why did he choose to come to Minnesota?
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Preenon Huq:
27:23
Job opportunities. I think that my mom and him visited um, the
US a few times and it just you know, they wanted to see like,
the land of opportunity and just kinda see what it was like and
they end up moving here and my dad was doing consulting so
he was all over the country. And then um, they just happened
to stop in Minnesota for a little bit. And then the plan was to
move somewhere else but then they ended up like, staying in
Minnesota all of a sudden enrolled in school and then, we've
been here ever since.
Sydney Baker:
27:50
Did they meet in England?
Preenon Huq:
27:51
Uh my parents had an arranged marriage so like, I think my dad
went to Bangladesh and then like, met my mom. And I think like
it was like my mom's- my dad's cousin um, knew my mom's
brother's wife. Like something like that. And so they met like
one time and then they got married. So very different.
Sydney Baker:
28:16
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. We've already talked about
which place you prefer, um... I guess one big question that I
have, and this can be in your own words but, what does being a
muslim in Minnesota mean to you, personally?
Preenon Huq:
28:43
Um. It's- It's... that's a hard question (laughing) you know
'cause, it's so different and especially like for somebody who is
not very religious. That's something that I would like to do is get
more involved with like the community and like the mosque.
Um, there's one mosque in Plymouth and there's like all these
different mosque's all over the- the Twin Cities and I was
actually recently saying to somebody else like, we should have
only one or two mosque's or maybe three at most, in the
different corners of the state of Minnesota. And they should be
like, really nice and big and just reflect like our culture and what
we represent and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
29:20
Because, the mosque in Plymouth was like an old post office
that was converted into a mosque and it looks okay. And like a
lot of the- a lot of the other mosque's are kinda like that, they're
converted um, old buildings and I just think that we- we can do
better in a sense. You know, we can make it a community space,
we can add a gym, we could make it a place where like, anybody
in the community you know, whether you're muslim or not
muslim but like almost more like a community center and then
also have the mosque connected. I think that would be like,
kinda my overall goal or what I would like to see. Um, obviously
that's like just way down the road that's gonna take a lot of
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effort. I mean, but like, one day that's what's something I would
love to do and see myself doing.
Preenon Huq:
30:05
But for the time being, you know, just participating in like
Ramadan um, like, if- I haven't read the Quran. That's
something that I wanna do. If like, one of- somebody else like
some of my Bengali friends or something wanna like, do that I
would definitely be open to doing that. Um, maybe like, little bit
later down the road 'cause I think that's another thing that a lotyou'll realize that a lot of muslims become more religious as
they get older. Especially the ones that were born in the US,
have definitely seen that as they get older, they become more
religious and more involved with the community. And so that'sthat's probably where I'll end up as well.
Preenon Huq:
30:44
I mean, if I could, I would love to get the fundraising and build a
mosque, definitely the way that I would like to see it, you know.
I was talking to the- the person I was talking to, he said you
know, "That's just not really practical", because peop- muslims
pray five times a day and no one wants to drive from you know,
if they're living in Coon Rapids they're not gonna drive to
Plymouth to go to the mosque. So that's why I was saying that,
if we could have three or four different corners of the cities, so
then they're still easily accessible, you know, it could definitely
be possible.
Sydney Baker:
31:16
How do you think the community of Plymouth would react to
something like that?
Preenon Huq:
31:20
So that's tough. You know that's like another thing that's hard.
Like, I think that there was lot of backlash for building that
mosque originally in Plymouth. Also like in different areas. Um, I
remember they wanted to build a mosque a long time ago near
the 9/11 site in New York and you know there's a lot of backlash
for that too. But, I think that like, you know, every year get's
better, every year's changing, more people are becoming open
and I think that you know, just showing the positiv- positivity in
the community makes a difference you know.
Preenon Huq:
31:52
Offering like 'Welcome all neighbors', 'Welcome everybody' and
show that, and do good in the community, whatever needs to
be done, helping out, volunteer, and you just- that's the hardest
part right? You know, you're going against some- a group and
people that don't like you, but that's what you have to do. You
have to show them the kindness, and that's the hardest thing.
You know, that's one of the things about me that I think a lot of
people appreciate. You know, whether you like me or not I'm
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gonna be the same person no matter what. And, a lot of people
ask me how I do it and it's just like, I really think that, that's how
it should be like, I should be putting in like, the good that I
wanna see in the world, the change that I wanna see and if that
means you know, everyday like, somebody tries to shoot you
down and like put- and try to get rid of you that's- that's when
you have to push even harder, that's when you have to you
know, show them that no matter what you do, I'm gonna be a
good person, I'm gonna be this true person I am.
Preenon Huq:
32:50
And that's the type of community we're gonna be you know,
because that's what a community does. They take care of
everybody, whether you're you know, spray painting the
mosque, well we'll just repaint it you know. We'll take care of it,
we're gonna- that's our community and you're just destroying
your own community. But at the end of the day, we're- we're
gonna do everything possible that we can to make it a better
place.
Sydney Baker:
33:13
Well, those are all of the questions that I have for you um, is
there anything else that you wanna talk about?
Preenon Huq:
33:19
Um. I mean like, one thing that I was kinda like thinking about is,
just like also, um... I don't know how to put this like, what my
life would be like if I grew up with more muslims in the different
communities 'cause I think that a lot of people in like, New York
or like Texas where like we know a lot of other Bengali's and
stuff, or if all the Bengali's lived in one ar- area, um. Like there's
a lot- the Jewish community lives in Hopkins or St. Louis Park, a
lot of people know that and I just wonder if that's- that would
be better. You know, I wonder if that would be easier to you
know, create organization or having a muslim community and
then also educating people. Would that work out better? Or is it
better for us to be separated? But then it kinda goes back to
like, what I was saying earlier about how you're representing
your entire community. You know, if you're just in one spot,
then maybe you get too comfortable. And that was the thing
that I was thinking about with a lot of my friends who are
Hmong, when I'm talking to them and like, a lot of them might
not have the most positive um, interactions with people who
are white. You know, because they're so used to spending time
with people who are Hmong and their community and therethere's enough Hmong people where they almost don't have to
interact with anybody who is- who is not Hmong. Like they- I
mean they can go to the car dealer ships and they can see you
know, people that they're Hmong they can go to their favorite
stores and everything and find people that are the same. Where
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I just don't have that you know, ability. So I really wonder you
know, how different would my life be. Same with like the even
the Indian community, a lot of them live in Plymouth and Maple
Grove. I see a lot of them living um, I see a lot of them at Life
Time Fitness, the Hindu temple is in Maple Grove, you know
what- what that lifestyle is like, is it easier for their kids to go to
school and talk about their religion and talk about where they're
from and their background and stuff because there's so many of
them. You know they always say that there's like safety in
numbers, you know. So that's- that's one thing that I was really
interested in, you know, thinking about.
Sydney Baker:
35:23
Do you know if your sisters ever struggled in school?
Preenon Huq:
35:26
It's hard to say like, that's- my family, we don't really talk about
that kinda stuff. We- we just don't like and um, even when
we're having problems and stuff that's not the type of family
that we are. We don't really communicate with hose things. But
I'm sure that they've gone through it or if not worse. You know,
because obviously they're older and things have only gotten
better.
Sydney Baker:
35:51
Perfect. Well thank you so much for being interviewed.
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Show less
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let'... Show more
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let's start off by having you tell tell me about yourself.
RA
Yeah, I'm right now I work at a recycling nonprofit in Minneapolis, educating people about
recycling and composting. Before that, I was a case manager. I interned and then Americacorps
and then worked at a nonprofit for a total of eight years. So I left that job about a year ago. And
yeah, should I go into like family history, or?
RT
Well, my next question, I guess is, tell me about your family?
RA
Yeah. So, my family came to the states in 1990. Where they they left Kuwait because of the
Gulf War invasion. So they were given the opportunity... Really, it was luck and just chance so
when the Gulf War invasion was happening, the only reason why my family got the option to
come to the States was... or got the option to leave Kuwait we didn't know that it would be to the
States was because one of my brothers was born in Florida. My parents had him so he's a US
citizen. So it was a US citizen in a war zone. So we I think, my mom I think we got on the last
plane leaving Kuwait before no more people could leave. My parents had 24 hours to decide
what to do. So they're given I don't know about the government been notified, like you can
leave, but you have to decide within this within 24 hours.
And I think, sadly, that's not, that wasn't like a new thing necessarily for my parents to have to
do, except for they had four kids, whereas they've escaped war multiple times in their lives. Like
collectively, it's been four times between the two of them where they've had to leave their home
because of war because of like, safety. So they decided to leave and they also within those 24
hours, had to pack everything that they could so they left everything thinking maybe that they
would come back. I don't I don't know if they thought it was like a permanent forever thing. But it
was. We couldn't go back.
And we ended up - so the first flight was to London. And then the flight was to North Carolina.
And right now still, there's a lot of I think there's a lot of immigrants in North Carolina from that,
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
from when that was happening. The only reason why we ended up in Minnesota is that my dad
went to school - I think he went to college with somebody who works, worked here. My dad
connected with him and the person said, Listen, like, we will like, come here, and I'll like help
you out. And so we came here and we have not left. So that was, that's like a major part of like,
how its shaped - how my life has been shaped but I can get into a little bit of history with my dad
leaving.
So he is - we're Palestinian and my dad was seven or eight when the occupation was
happening in Palestine, and was forced out. And I think it was '49 when his family had to leave,
so he has memory of like being forced out so when I said like, this wasn't his first time
experiencing this - It's because in Palestine, they had everything take everything taken away,
forced out and ended up in Syria.
And my mom has memory of just war. And I don't want to say that, like, it's all terrible and war
is... like, it's not like there wasn't joy, but there's so much war that has shaped my parents and
led us hear. So my dad's experience in addition to just like our story of immigration, or
immigrating here, and like being refugees, but like, we came here, because my brother is a
citizen and like this weird, like, refugee immigrant status, but then not having like a country of
origin because we're Palestinian was weird. It's still kind of weird.
So anyway, my dad ended up in Kuwait because of school and work and my mom moved to
Kuwait with her family when she was younger and they met there. And when we came to the
States, it was 1990. So I was a baby. Like, I don't I didn't know any. I didn't know any of this. So
we got to the States. And my dad was a pharmacist and he couldn't practice because - I know
that he took the exam maybe twice here to be able to practice here but I don't know if it was a
language barrier. I don't know if it was like not being able to like continue leaving to take the
test. I don't know maybe for some reason I have in my mind that he had to go to Chicago to take
this exam. But that could be just something I have mixed up but regardless, he couldn't he
couldn't become a pharmacist here. I'll - even though he had years of school he was a
practicing pharmacist, so that's just like another thing that they had to leave behind. You know,
like a piece of your identity, like all of your identity, you know, what you worked for.
So, we were really lucky where we met people who... I don't know how we met them, but they
were involved in our lives forever. Like the woman who was - like helped us with like getting
coats and like pots and pans and like getting us settled and like putting my brothers into Title
One classes to make sure that they're able to like, have assistance with learning English and
reading English.
There were those people there like, we had such a lucky situation, because like, we had
connection, and then I don't, I don't know how we met this family. But we had like, support
forever. We've always been surrounded by really supportive people. And it was important back
then, because it's like, my parents world got turned upside down. They had four kids under,
like, I don't know, probably under 15. And one was an infant, which is me. And it's like, you're in
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
this entirely new world, unexpectedly. So we got a lot of support from people. Like when we
when we came.
So, we lived in an apartment and my parents both worked pretty like odd jobs... factory work
and my dad owned a corner store in St. Paul called Craig's Country Boy. And his name - people
used to call him Ernie and his name is Awny and that always we still laugh about it today - that
people would call him Ernie. I know it's like classic - I don't even know if you would like, like, tell
them that wasn't this name is like, Okay, this is what it is.
Yeah, and eventually, my mom got a position as a teacher. Doing... right now she's a special ed
para. But back then she had like, various roles and para professional, like, as a para
professional.
And my brothers and I, I mean, we like assimilated. And I guess I'll only talk like speak for
myself. But I think growing up - we grew up in Anoka, which is like, pretty white, pretty Christian
more than - I mean, I would say Christian and then white. It's like, you know where people's
values are. Um, so, yeah, I'm just like, Can I go into like, growing up in Anoka?
RT
Yeah, please.
RA
. . . being a Muslim... Should I reel it in?
RT
You're right on track.
RA
I so went to school, and I did not know of really any other Muslims, except for like, one or two
families, but was never really connected with them, just for whatever reason. But I think like, as I
got, as I was older, I realized all of the, like, terrible things that I experienced, but I didn't even
realize we're terrible just because there was nothing to like, red, like, show me red flag, I guess.
Um, so yet, I really tried. And is is like, something I regret so much as like, I like lost the
language so fast. I spoke Arabic. Like, I mean it's, my parents still speak it, my dad almost
exclusively speaks in Arabic. My mom, I mean, they're both still fluent.
My older brothers are like, like, they, they can talk and like, understand, and I lost a lot of it. And
it really was, like, I'm just trying to fit in, I'm just trying to like survive in Anoka. Like, where you
know that you're different, There are different, like, it's, you just know, you're different. So I think
I just tried super hard to, like, blend in. Not that I ever denied that I was Muslim, ever. Um, but it
was just like, you just try to get by and like to have as much of a normal life because you've had
these, like, your parents have had these traumatic experiences, and like your siblings remember
things of was?
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So yeah, it's just like, your, it's just so hard to find the spot to be content with both these lives,
like when you're young, and, you know, you're like families trying to, like, keep this, like, keep
the language alive, keep the culture alive. But at the same time, you're like going to school and
you're trying to just like, be like other people. And just like be... normal, but normal didn't have, it
shouldn't have been that I needed to sacrifice one thing for the other. That was,
I mean, maybe it's because of the time that we were, like, my age of like, oh, like in the 90s, or
in the early 2000s. Like, that's just the way it was people weren't as like, open or, like, willing to
hear you out. I would say, I'd say that it's still a problem. Like, I mean, of course, it's still a
problem. But I'm just looking back at it. Like all I wanted us to just like have a normal life.
And not to say my parents didn't provide because they, I mean, I think five years after we came
to the States, they bought a house. Like, they truly like, hustled and like, did everything they
could to, like never make us feel like we were like in a crisis. Like they did everything they could
to provide for their kids. And they did I mean, they have four grown kids that are like, healthy
and have careers and like, it's truly like the ideal story of a family coming here. Yeah, but it is
like we had a lot of - we were lucky with who we knew. So I digress but...
RT
Yeah, cool. I want to ask you, what was the attitude towards religion in your house growing up?
RA
It was... like, very, there like, religion was important to my family. I remember we would do, like,
Qur'anic studies with other Muslim families. All of my siblings and I, at one point, were in
Sunday School for Islamic Studies and for the language. I mean, still now my dad is like, you
know, reciting things from the Qur’an, or like talking religion but I mean, when I was younger, it
was like, You hang on to that, that's like, we're not in the Middle East. We're not in like, this isn't
where we're from. We're here, but we do have our religion. So we're going to, like, hold that and
practice it and be proud of who we are and where we're from.
And I'm really thankful for that. Like, I love being proud of my heritage, and the religion and like,
where I come from - being a Palestinian, even though I've never been. Like, and I think that's to
do with them of like, no, you're going to - just this is how it is, you know, not that we're all like,
super religious, or we all have our different like, spectrums, or, like levels of belief, or whatever.
But...
RT
You do have different levels of belief with your family?
RA
Yeah, I mean, I think like...
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RT
...Was it always like that?
RA
I don't think so. I think when you grow up, in general, you start to just like form your own ideas...
or not ideas, but like, you have more space to like, Think for yourself. And I think that now, it's
so much about - in my eyes, it's like keeping the culture alive. Like the practice of, like,
celebrating, I mean, that's like a tradition. And that's a very important thing to our family. So you,
you take the day off, you go to prayer with your family, and you have a super big meal. And you
celebrate, like the end of Ramadan, like, those things are so like, embedded in my family.
And like, I think they're - my mom especially is so good at like, we are going to engage your
nieces and nephews, we're going to, like, make this fun and make make this... like, you know,
my nephew, just the other day was like, I love Easter because of the Easter egg hunt. It's like,
oh, cause my two of my brothers married, like, white people that are from here. And like, they
converted. So they're raising their kids Muslim, but like, they have family, like their family
members are Christian, whatever. So I was like, wow, like, how do we make Ramadan... like,
like, engaging? or whatever... So it's like, let's do like a lantern hug- hunt, or whatever. So it's
like, how do we keep it important? Like, how do we keep the tradition and the culture alive?
Because you don't want it to be lost over time. Because it's such a beautiful thing. Like, how do
you keep... How do you keep young people engaged? Like, what do you teach them? What do
you show them? What do you want them to carry with them that's positive to share with the
world to like, stop looking at you in such a negative way.
My mom hosted - my older brother has a couple buddies that she hosted for the Fourth of July.
And she made this like super Palestinian meal, like our favorite meal, we had it like a barbecue
outside, and it was super nice. And she had like American flag paper plates and napkins. And
we were like, Mom, like, Why are you like doing this? Like, why you like being like this? And she
said, like, I want, I want people to know that we're just like them. And that was like, I understood
her so much... in that moment of we're just like you, we like the same things. We can celebrate
the Fourth of July, there's no difference.
And I take - what I take from it is like... these people who... one couple who brought their kids,
like they're going to like, their kids will remember us, ideally. And instead of like listening to what
people say on the news of like stereotypes of Arabs or Muslims, they like have a person to
associate that like positive, that positive experience with and say like, Well, no, just because this
person's Muslim doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean that they're terrorists, because some
people really think that and that's because their parents teach.. teach them or the classroom
teachers it or whatever.
So it's like, you keep your culture. And sometimes it's like, not even the religion, but like, the
culture is so important. And it's a beautiful thing. And it like makes you want to like, hold it
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tighter, the more negative thing like the more than negative things happen. And oddly, like it's a
protective thing. Like... Yes. Yeah, you just want to protect it because it was beautiful, like you you think of all these, like family gatherings, and like the music and the laughter and the
language, and the people associated, it's like, it's beautiful. You don't want to lose that. And you
want people to know that it's, you're just like them just from a different place.
RT
So then that's kind of like, you know, that's your, your, your parents keeping their culture alive in
their home. And then as we like, get more into the conversation about school and kind of
bumping up against like, you know, American culture.
RA
Yeah.
RT
How was school? What was the attitude towards school and in your home? Like, with your
parents?
RA
Yeah. I mean, it was, like, you're going to school, and you're going to do well. I think a lot of
parents, but like, think that way they want their kids to do well, but I, for my parents, it was like,
you're going to do well, you're going to go beyond, like, ideally, you're not going to stop at
college, you're going to go beyond, like you're going to go to grad school, you're going to be a
doctor or a whatever. Like it was school first, above anything, because that was like the
foundation of your life is going to be like your success in school is going to take you places.
And I think... there was no question about me going to college. And, like, knowing that they my
parents did what, whatever they could to be able to let me go to college and to be able to take,
like a financial burden off of me, because it's education is like, everything. It really is everything.
And especially to my dad, because he did - He went through so much school. And he went to
school in a time where you like had to hand draw your like, plants that you're growing like, I
don't know, he's a pharmacist so like, the beautiful plants that you had to hand draw that you
were studying, you didn't have a graph for you didn't have a thing like a projector or whatever.
So it's like to him, you go to school, you maybe run into issues with like, ignorant people. And if
you ever need - if they ever needed to intervene on something they would, but they knew... I
think especially after September 11th happened, they knew that like, it wasn't always going to
be easy for us even more.
But I can't ever remember a time where they just like, brush school aside or your education
aside. It's just, it wasn't a question. I'm so thankful for it. Like, I've never just like miss school all
the time. Thankfully, I had a mom who could drive me to school if I ever needed to. I took the
bus or whatever. But it was never a question that I was like, not going to do well in school. It
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wasn't like a toxic environment at all. But I was like, No, like, I'm going to go to school, and I'm
gonna, like, try hard. And like have hiccups. But still, like, take it seriously.
RT
Sounds like you're very supported in that endeavor.
RA
Oh, totally. Absolutely.
RT
And then so in the school, what were your friendships like? Like, who did you associate with?
What did you do for fun with your friends?
RA
Yeah, I, I had a best friend who I hung out with all the time. And a few other friends where we
were just like, talk between classes all the time. And on weekends, I was not allowed to go to
football games. That was like the big thing in Anoka, and probably everywhere in high school.
But just because it's like not a normal thing in like, you don't go to like a football game. This is
not a thing back home. Or like it's not a normal thing. And also like very, like, strict parents too
like they're only daughter doing random foot- what's a football game? No, you're not going.
RT
They have futball, like soccer...
RA
They have soccer. But it's also like with other Muslims and like met with all these other variables
that you can't control or you have no idea what it's like, like, my dad is older. So to him, it's like,
no, like, you're not doing that you're not going to prom. Like what is - no, like? Absolutely not. So
it was a lot of like, I could not do a lot of what my friends did in high school. Because my dad
was strict. And because of was just like not as... it just simply wasn't a thing that you did...So...
RT
How was that?
RA
Oh, it was terrible. It was awful. It was awful! Because I didn't I mean, I still don't understand. I
don't think that that's like a good way to protect a kid. I think. Luckily, I like stayed out of
dangerous situations when I moved out because I think so a lot of people are like, okay,
whatever I'm like, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want to and I'm just gonna, like, be
reckless. Thankfully, that didn't happen to me. But I think like it totally could have it happens to
people all the time. I don't think it was I don't think that's a healthy thing. I think they wanted me
to be safe and they wanted me to be healthy and have a safe home. But I also think like, there if
there comes a point where you have to like give a little and say okay, we're not like this isn't
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Kuwait, this isn't Syria, it's not Jordan, we have to like recognize that this is a norm and just
because you're doing this thing that maybe you never did like a parent never did when they
were younger. It doesn't mean that this your kid's gonna lose everything about culture just
because they're going to like a football game.
But yeah, other than that we would like meet on weekends like weekdays just do or weekend
days, my friends and I would just like do stupid stuff like go to BestBuy and they had those like
new Mac Book photo booth photos... we would do stupid stuff like that.
There's not much to do in Anoka... just go to the BestBuy, go to Subway. Yeah, and like
hanging out at people's houses. This friend one of my best friends there from high school that I
don't have any contact with anymore. Because she was also... she is evangelical Christian, like
later I realize like, the intent a lot of times it's like trying to get get me to convert, which was like
a very sad thing to realize...
RT
In high school?
RA
Yeah, in high school. And like would like weirdly say like super disrespectful things about the
religion - about my religion versus hers.
So that was like a weird thing to just like, have this friend for so long. And then finally be like, oh,
like she's kind of terrible to me. But that's again, like when you get out of it. And you're like, Oh,
that's not normal to like, be told that your belief is bad. Because even though I'm Muslim, I am
like, Who am I to say anybody else is wrong for what they believe? That's but that's the type of
person I am. Doesn't matter to me what you believe or don't believe it's like, we're all on the
playing fields. Like if you're a good person, that's great. Like, we can coexist together. So yeah.
RT
Did that come to a head in high school or after high school?
RA
I think there was one time that has really stuck with me that I think is like shaped, like shaped
the way we just kind of drifted apart... it was, Eid... So after Ramadan, it happened like the most
joyous, like, exciting day. And I think we were talking on the phone, because I didn't go to
school that day, because you get off school because it's celebration. And she had said, I don't
even know why it came up. But she had said, I just want you to know, like, I don't think what
you're doing is right, talking with like, celebrating, like believing in the Prophet Mohammed.
Or maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like she had said, like, I don't think what you're doing is right.
And maybe even said that I like thought I was going to hell - that could be me fogging it with a
teacher that didn't have a good conversation with. But regardless, that really like, was so hurtful
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for someone to say that on like, such a such a special day, where I was always like, super open
to, like hearing about her religion.
And like even I don't even think my parents knew that I did this because they would probably
back then would have like, had a meltdown. But I would go to the like, Christian group thing at
high school in high school, where the like, Sure, I'll like go to this thing with you. But then later
realizing like what the hell like, Oh, no, like, this is just kind of all like a ploy. It was weird. After
she had said that, to me, it was really hurtful. And I kind of was just like, what, like, that's not
how a friend should be. And I never thought that about her, or the religion. I just never was like,
you're wrong. And you're a bad person for what you believe. And then after high school, she
had gone to like a very Christian College. So I think after that was just like a natural... like, oh, I
realized you really weren't a good friend. Like, super funny. Her family was like really welcoming
and lovely. But then they're... like, the negatives just outweighed the positives, just because I
realized even if you're you like young, and you say dumb stuff, so still, like very hurtful. And like,
she knew what she was saying, because it was like, so specific to you know, you're wrong for
what you believe. And that's sadly like, what their church taught them. So...Yeah...
RT
You talked earlier about like, wanting to fit in when you were young? Like younger? Like I was
imagine, like elementary age. Did that carry through through high school? Did you feel
assimilated, or whatever it was, by the time you were in high school?
RA
I did. I - people still knew that I was Muslim, mostly I mean, it was people that I had, like, known,
you know, all throughout Elementary, early middle school, high school. So people knew but it
was... it was not something I like, talked about all the time, not out of shame. But just to like,
make it through to like, not be "othered". Because I think it's super easy in high school to be
"othered" if there's like anything different with you, and I'm lucky- I mean, I, I had the idea of like,
okay, like, I can like do everything you all can. Like I can talk about the same things, I can have
same, like similar experiences with you just because like... Just because I have a family that has
a different religion, or I believe in something else that's like, outside of the norm doesn't mean I
have to be so different from you. And like I was craving that like, acceptance. I don't think I ever
got it. Or maybe I like from some people I did, but like, from... teachers, like, there's an awful
experience of like, you... my teacher joked about how - a few there were a few comments that
he made. But like one of them was... I think we were like joking about something. And he was
like, well, you're going to hell... But.. not.. I said something about religion, but like was like well
you're going to hell and I know what it's for. And it was like, very like, explicit. Like, it was like a
joke... A "joke", quote, you know, like, Ha Ha jokey, but like, that was a very loaded joke. And
like, talking about that to somebody in college, I realized, like... Oh, that was like, very racist...
very inappropriate to say to a student. And like, even if you didn't mean it.. I don't even think he
didn't mean it. Because why would you say that?
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And then another one was, like somebody joked about... this makes me so sad... But joked
about... like, said something about me being Muslim, and then was like "bomb squad!" And then
like, we like joked about it... Because I was like, okay, it's like a joke... But, yeah, it's just terrible.
It's like, you're trying really hard to assimilate into just like, be there. But you're also like hanging
on to your, like, your religion so like clearly it was like, I guess it was clear that I was Muslim.
And like that I was not shy about it. I probably wear a necklace that said God and Arabic, I'm
sure I did, because I wore it all the time. But it wasn't like, I didn't like talk about religion all the
time. Because that's just never, ever what I was like, and it's never like, I still am not like that.
But it was clear that I was different. Like you people just love to hang on to that in school,
especially like, you just love to, like, focus on that thing that makes you different. I don't know if
it's different now... As people... like, I mean, I can't say that Anoka has changed in that way.
Like... I don't even know if that teacher is still a teacher, probably is... But yeah, you just like, it
wasn't like a shitty time, like every day, but it was still like, there's clearly these things I like,
hung on to years after college, or I'm sorry, years after high school, because it's like, you don't
realize that stuff.
Maybe it's because I just didn't want to and then when I was around people who - to actually say
to me, like that wasn't okay. Like you shouldn't have like, why did that person make you watch
Passion of the Christ? That's not okay. Like, that's weird to do. Like, it's not until you have
people outside of that, that say that, that makes you think critically is like, oh, like, high school
was kind of just about being Muslim, but then being okay with people making jokes, and then
being scared when something like 911 happened or other attacks by Muslims or the war, like,
hoping that like you're not targeted for something, because of who you are. Because of what
people who claim to be Muslim do. It's like, a tricky balance to like, have normalcy. And then,
like, still be thinking about all that stuff.
Oh like... people hate where I'm from, like the reality like knowing like, oh, people really hate
where I'm from, and kind of trying to be like an ambassador to be like, not all people are like
this, like, not all Muslims, like, hate America, not all Muslims are going to like, bomb
somewhere. And that was like, the reality is like the closed mindedness there in schools, like
you actually had to try to say that. And I had a friend who told me like, honestly, if I had never
known you, I would just like, think everything on the news was true about like, what I hear about
you.
And I think that's still the case for some people in some areas, but it's like, Okay, I guess like, if I
got that one person, maybe they're, it's kind of like what my mom did for that dinner. It's like, oh,
like, maybe they'll hang on to that. Yeah, like, oh, not every, not every not every Muslim is
gonna like, not every Muslim hates America, and not every Muslims like out to kill people.
RT
Yeah. And hopefully, or I like to think too is like, you know, you only know a tiny fraction of the
people that you did that for, you know, how many people just knew you and just by that virtue if
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you weren't even good friends with them was like, oh, maybe this is okay. Or at least at least
gives them the idea...
RA
Yeah. Yeah! Yeah! It's plants, plants a seed... Yeah. And I mean, there are some friends from
high school, one in particular, that I'm still really close with. And we've even talked about that
stuff, like high school is weird. And like these weird things happened. Like, that's not normal... or
like that super Christian person... Like, she was kind of mean, and like reflecting like, as adults,
of how... l
I don't know what the word is, but how isolating it can be. It's just, it can be such an isolating
experience. If you have teachers that are saying, like, really inappropriate things, or you're not
surrounded by people that are like, look like you. But I don't think that - I mean, I pass as white.
So there's like some people that can tell like, oh, like, you're not white or like you're... some
people think I'm like, Hispanic or, or Spanish. So it's like, oh, you're not you're not from here. But
most of the time, I could, I could just pass. So it's like, knowing that I have the passing privilege,
but also knowing that like, they are not like me, like, I don't see anybody that looks like me in my
school.
It does shape who you are. Kind of like what we were talking about earlier. Like you don't you
can see yourself fitting into a place if you see others that look like you. But until you do that,
you're going to feel kind of like you don't belong, or, like you don't fit in. Which is weird. Cause,
yeah, high school wasnt awful, but it's just like these things shaped who you become and like
how you look at, like, what you would want to do for your kids and like, what you would want to
teach other kids of, like, inclusivity , and like, being equitable and like fair and kind. Yeah.
RT
I did want to ask about dating in high school... And if that was a possibility for you? or something
that you did?
RA
No, absolutely not.
RT
...yeah if you couldn't go to football games...
RA
No, absolutely. I think that's a great question. Because it's such a normal thing. Like in American
culture to, like, have boyfriends or to like, go on dates... Yeah, prom is this huge thing... That
was not... Not the case for me. But it's also I think it's two things. It's that, like, culturally, you just
don't date around. Like, that's not a, like an Arab Middle Eastern thing. It's, you don't do that.
And that was my first point is like, it's not a thing to do.
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And second, my - no - I'm the only girl, youngest daughter. It was like, the idea would cross my
mind. But there's no way that it would have happened. You know, it's like, yeah, I didn't, there
was no like option for it, I think. Because you don't like go on dates. You don't have a boyfriend.
Like the idea is... It's not a thing that exists. Maybe it's like, also like, my dad, where he came
from and his upbringing too... like, much more conservative.
And just that's not in his realm of thinking even now. It's like, what? like, dating is just yeah, so it
was a no go.
RT
Yeah. And maybe you relate to this, maybe not... but what role - you mentioned, like being the
only daughter. And so I'm wondering, what role did gender play? Either at school or at home? If
there was like, a different experience or similar experience? or...
RA
Yeah, I think gender played a huge role, huge role. Very... like, the family structure was very
much like patriarchal. So like, I think I stumbled on that word, but you get it. Of... as the
youngest. And as the girl, there's like, not much say, you're gonna like, Listen to what your dad
says. So I think like it had everything to do with my upbringing. And that's even those are things
I'm still like working on now. If like...
Your role is like, as a woman or a man or, like still unpacking all that stuff that I learned as a kid
that I'm like, I'm like, working on unlearning now. Of like, oh, like, you can still make your own
decision and like, have the right decision, even if, like a man doesn't approve or doesn't agree
with you. But when I was younger, that wasn't an option. It was very much like, you're going to
listen to what your dad said. And there is no question about it.
And I think in school, I probably had the same mindset, because that was what it was like, in - at
home. Like, no, you ask your mom, but like your dad usually ultimately has the say, like the end
say, like, he's the head of the house. He makes the decisions. So it... Yeah...
RT
Was there a difference then between you and your brothers? How you and your brothers were
treated?
RA
Yeah, 100% yeah. Oh thats my alarm... sorry.
Alright, so yes, the roles, like the treatment between my brothers and I was very clear, my
brothers used to be able to go out with their friends. Go to Minneapolis, like do all these things
that I was not allowed to do. And when I was eventually allowed to, I could never really go out
late. Like, it was so clear, it was a very, like, so, so unfair, based on me being a woman. Yeah...
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RT
So then I'm wondering, to what extent did you accept or challenge that growing up?
RA
Yeah, I would try to challenge it. But I think it wasn't met with much. You know, I didn't win. The
thing I will say that I did... that changed... Or the thing that happened that is not common for
women is to... well... I shouldn't say like, generally, but I moved away for college whereas
initially I was driving every day. But eventually, I think maybe like two months in I like had a
meltdown. Because I was driving so much. It was really stressful. So my dad was like, Yeah,
like I see, I see how stressed you, I see how tired you are. So I did end up moving to campus.
And I didn't move back home, which was very against cultural norms of like, you should stay,
like, keep living at home until you're married. And I have to say, That's still like something that
my dad like, is hurt by like to this day.
And I think that was my own way to like, take a quick - take hold and take control of that. Like, I
am like, a grown up. And just because I'm a woman, like it doesn't mean I can't like do what I
want to or live independently.
It is challenging, like, even as a 28 year old, being faced with that, like guilt and, like, shame. I
mean, there's lots of things with shame and guilt. And it's, it's hard. And I'm, I think it'll be less
hard eventually. But knowing that it like, I know I made the right decision, like recognizing you're
not a bad person, just because you didn't move back home, you know, but still being like, okay,
like, this isn't a normal thing. And it's not going to be a normal thing for my dad. I mean, my
mom was like, fine, she's over it, like, whatever, like live your life, but my dad is like, you never
moved back home. You know, like, and is really hurt by that. Um, so it still plays a role for sure,
like, still right now plays a role, but it's just a matter of now. How am I willing? Like, what am I
willing to do to like, take a lead on that and say, like, put it on to my terms instead of somebody
else's terms? ...takes a lot of practice, and it's exhausting.
Definitely, like, don't have it down. But it is like, I have the tools now to use. You know, I'm older
and like, I have more of a say, and I can like, I can explain myself better. But knowing that, like
my dad's old, and he's not going to change his mind about a lot of things and coming to terms
with that. For a man who like, got his life taken away, like, a few times, and like trying to hang on
- like goes back to that like hanging on to where you're from and like, hang on to your religion.
And there's only one way to do that to him. Or for him and his eyes. But yeah, I mean, it totally
plays a role. In, in it did then and it does now still.
RT
So you identify with being Muslim and Palestinian. So growing up in school, did you experience
those identities as one of the same? Or have you experienced - are there times when you've
experienced one without the other?
RA
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
Yeah, I think that when I was in school, I really only identified - I just like, yeah, I only had the
Muslim part. And I think... now... like learning more, and just like being proud of where you're
from, and wanting your culture to stay alive, and like where you're from, is important. And it's
where your roots are...
In... Yeah, when I was in school, it just wasn't... I don't know - it didn't - it wasn't as important as
it is now. Because I think maybe I just have the capacity to be like, I'm Muslim, like, Middle
Eastern, not Pakistani, not Indian. You know, like, I'm from the Middle East. And that's how I
identified is like, I'm the middle - I'm like, from the Middle East. I think it's still hard - or it was
hard then to like, say yeah, and like Muslim, not white, even though I look white. And having to
like - that was probably more of like, hey, like, we're not white, my parents are darker than I am.
My siblings and I pass as white... I mean in most cases. But there are people who are also
passing in that are like way darker in like, you wouldn't call them white.
So it's like this weird identity of like, yeah, I'm Muslim. I look like you. But I know there's
differences. Now. It's like, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. And I hold those two very close together
and tightly think even more. So when, like tragic things happen. Like the New Zealand shooting
was like - you hold those things even closer to you, to protect them and to like, share positivity,
like positive stories, or just give people different outlook. So yeah.
RT
So you said youre Palestinian Muslim? Does American fit somewhere? Like where, you know,
where does it fit in that?
RA
Honestly, I wish it didn't have such a big place between the three. But it just does. Because I've
been here, this is all I know. So like, I'm an American... for so many reasons. And like in so
many ways. And I also am trying to find ways to like incorporate my Palestinian identity and
honestly try to put it above American. But it's not - it doesn't happen that way. Because it's not
surrounded by Palestinians all the time as I'm surrounded by Americans. And like, it's, yeah, I
am proud that I like have my Palestinian identity. And I'm like, very proud to be a Palestinian I...
Like... it's so close to my heart. I'm like, Yeah, like an American, but I don't see in... as I don't
see it in the same way at all, as I see, being a Palestinian. Being a Palestinian, in my heart
comes first. Because I truly feel like there are roots and like, there's history to that. And it's
special.
And I think part of like, part of the reason is like the story of my dad losing his home, like that
passes on to your kids. And like, I think my parents have done a beautiful job of sharing our like
story of coming here. So I just hold those things so tight. And so it's like the Americanness is
embedded. But I hold being Palestinian higher then I hold being an American. Not saying I like
don't like the privileges that comes with like being a citizen. Because I just became a citizen,
like, three years ago, last March, or three years ago in March. Yeah. So it's a new thing. And I
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
kind of don't believe it, I still don't really believe I have, like the protection that you are - that you
get with being a citizen.
But that's because I was, you know, didn't have it for years and years and couldn't work until I
had a green card and had to go through all these loopholes. And so like, doesn't feel real. It's
like cool that I have my citizenship. It's a privilege that I had, like a lawyer and like, assistance
and a car to get to all these places and appointments. But yeah, I think the Palestinian identity
like is like dear to my heart. And it's important to like, share it with people, like I cook Palestinian
meals when I can, I'm like, try to share them with people.
Cuz like you surround yourself. I mean, I surround myself with open minded people on like,
people who would never like, I would never do this, like I would never be around people who
didn't accept me. But its still fun that you like, this is the Palestinian meal and share it with other
people. Like, share your experiences.
RT
Okay, you just said something... about being a citizen - did that weigh on your mind growing up?
RA
It did because I couldn't work for - till I was 20. Excuse me, I like couldn't have a job. I couldn't
like, make my own money because I wasn't - I was - This is like the worst term to like, call a
person - But I was an alien. I had an alien ID. So it weighed on me in the like, knowing that we
weren't citizens, like nobody in my family but my one brother was a citizen. And as for - as long
as I can remember, my parents were working on it. And like, we were supposed to become
citizens, like five years after we were in the States. And then it was seven. And then September
11th happened. And then that was like, oh, like Muslims are terrifying. We're not going to give
them like citizenship.
And on top of that, like being - like having a Syrian passport for a Palestinian refugee. It's hard
to like, "Where are you from?" Youre like, not from anywhere because Palestine is not identified
as a country. You're not a citizen of Syria. You're not a citizen of Kuwait. So that was always
like, that was like pretty, like, pretty constantly, like I was I was aware of it all the time.
But I also was like, Yeah, like we have a lawyer or like somebody who's working on it, or like,
okay, I can't have a job. But at least if like, I can't have a job, but it's better than like, applying for
a job and then, like, being kicked out of America, because you don't have like, your alien card.
You know? So yeah, that's pretty constant all the time. And even now, it's still is because it's
like, what? it took me 25 years to become a citizen. It initially was only going to take me five. So
same for my parents. I mean, they just, they became citizen - or they got their green cards or
citizenship when they when I was 20. Because that's why I could start working is because I got
a green card. So just eight years, they've been citizens - not long. Yeah.
RT
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
A couple times, we've kind of like touched on 9/11. And I just, like, want to give the opportunity if
you want to, like talk about, like, anything specific, like around that time. You're old enough to
like remember that. Or, like any, like lasting effects. Obviously, things have gotten more
complicated. But in a lot of the research, there's a lot of - 9/11 is kind of a catalyzing - it's not
catalyzing - but to ... it brings together a lot of Muslim experience, but then a lot of research
started coming out of that big event. The reactions, I guess. So I just wanted to give you time to
talk about that if you want to...
RA
Yeah. Yeah, this is - it's... we'd... I forget - Like me and friends were talking about like, why, like,
when we found out about 9/ 11, and like, how, like, was it appropriate or inappropriate that it
was playing, like, when I was... it was in sixth grade... And I was in sixth grade... And they like, I
remember somebody that worked in the lunch room was running around class to class, saying,
like, they attacked... the Twin Towers or something. And the class like, What are you talking
about? like, what's going on? and the teacher just like, put on the news. So like, they were like,
telling everybody and I don't know, if we watched... I don't think we watched it for the rest of the
day. But I remember like watching it, and it was like nine in the morning, or whatever, their time
nine. So I think it was like our home room or something. And I just remember going home, and
my mom being terrified, because it was Muslims or they were Muslims who did the attacks.
And... just the like, fear and concern of like, being Muslim, and in that time, it was so unsafe. It
was so unsafe. Like women weren't wearing their hijabs, and like, people were getting attacked
and killed... So I think it always like that shaped me... to like, actually have fear or be fearful...
because of like, being Muslim, because now there was like this really big reason why you
should hate Muslims. And like a legitimate like, Oh, they killed a bunch of people. And this like
this... It's so easy to hate a group. Like it's so easy to hate the "other".
And, I mean, when the... shooting in Texas happened on the military base, I think, and like the
various other attacks, I mean, every time I don't think for as long as I live, I don't think I'll ever
not have like a paniced reaction. And like fear. Because, like, 9/11 was terrifying. It was like
tragic. It ruined like the innocence of like, school, like it ruined - it like shaped - You're... like, I
don't know how to say it. It was like being Muslim existing. But then being Muslim after this, like
terrible attack happened in feeling. Like,
at any moment, you could be targeted. At any moment, you can, like, get hurt, or somebody can
say something really painful and mean. And even even now like, honestly, what like my truest
nightmare is like being attacked in the mosque. Because that's like the most sacred and
peaceful place... Just worrying about like, Oh, my God, like, my dad has an accent.
Like... I hope that like when my brothers at Friday prayer, nothing happens to them. Or like,
what if I'm wearing this necklace? and somebody's angry? And like, does something? So it like
shapes how you think of it. And I'm not the only one like, this is totally not like a one, like a
random thing. But I think about it all the time. Like I think about 911 all the time. And like, if that
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
didn't happen, where would we be like as a country, in our like, hate towards, towards Muslims,
or, and not even just Muslims, it's people who, like, Sihks who wear who have the long hair, and
people always mistake them for being Muslim. And for just darker skin, people who are
mistaken for Muslims or, like Indian...
Like, people from India who are like, attacked and murdered because people do it of like,
because they think you're Muslim or whatever. It's like, it's always there. It's always there...
constantly for me. And that's just... doesn't like, eat away at me. But it's like a thing, where I
think of my nieces and nephews. And I'm like, oh, like, are they going to be ashamed? Are they
going to be scared to be Muslim? What's their experience going to be? I don't know. It's just,
yeah, it just changes you. Like, it was a sad, it was tragic. And then to be Muslim and have it
happen and like, kind of watch the world turn on you, in a way? is kind of haunting? Yeah.
RT
Yeah, good reason, I think.
RA
Yeah.
RT
I have a few more questions. So I couldn't figure out exactly how to word this question. But this
is how I've got it so far. Did you ever experience negative personal reactions to your Muslim
identity? So for example, did you ever wish to hide it? Or did you ever feel like restricted from it?
So not like from the outside, but like, internally? Did you ever feel like opposed to your?
RA
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that there... the first thing that comes to mind, like when I was younger
was al- like drinking alcohol. Because that's... because Muslims drink alcohol, but it's like, in
their religion, you shouldn't. And I think when I was younger, really like, hating that part of it.
Like I resented that part of the religion, like why not? Like really, because like, especially when,
like, you're in high school, and people are starting to drink or experimenting with alcohol or pot
that's like, as for me, it was more alcohol that people were smoking or drinking.
But you have like this internal Battle of like, do I want to do this? Do I want to just like, put this
identity away for a second? So I can, like, have this experience with people to like, be normal?
Yeah, that's like the biggest thing. Now it's like, whatever, I don't drink and it's barely even
because of religion at this point. I think now, it's like, oh, I've seen it damage a lot of people. I've
gone this long. I'm just like, not going to. Now, it's just like a personal choice. Not to say it's like,
oh, sometimes I would love to, like, have a really nice glass of wine, or, like, enjoy this beer that
all my friends love. And then, there, sometimes I'm like, Oh, I just wish that I was like, put that
little part of guilt away and just like, do it. But I think like, it's kind of like, makes me think of like
Catholic guilt. I don't really know exactly what that means completely. But it's like this, like
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
Muslim guilt, like, oh, like, just like, I wish I could just, like, put that away for a second. And enjoy
this thing without feeling guilty.
And like dating, like, come on, like, just let me date? Or like, why is it really that bad? To just
like, date, or to like, meet people and like, learn who you like, or what type of person you like.
And then... the other thing is, like, being someone identifying as gay, like, Why Is that wrong?
But that's like... I don't think when I was in high school, and like, around super Christian people,
is one thing. But then when you shape what you believe yourself, that was like kind of an
internal thing. Like, is it wrong? I don't think it's wrong. Like, at my core, don't think it's wrong.
And so that's just something where I've been like, that's not wrong.
And God... like the relationship between you and whoever you believe, or whatever you believe
is like a personal thing. And... nobody can like judge it or speak on it. And like, my way of
looking at is like, probably like more liberal leaning. I don't know that everybody would
appreciate this but like, yeah, like, God and I have a relationship. I don't necessarily do
everything that like a proper Muslim should do. I know that. And I know that, like, nobody can
define like, what you believe nobody can judge what you have between whatever you believe,
whether it's like, nature, or, like, the beauty of flowers or animals, like nobody can, like speak on
that.
So I think I have those internal battles, especially like, I'm not going to go into this but like dating
somebody who's not Muslim that like internal, like, all right, well, I'm doing this, and it's my own
thing. And it's between me and God, how he wants to, like, God knows your my intentions,
nature knows your intentions. It's just like a very personal, personal experience. It doesn't need
to be judged by others. So yeah.
RT
Yeah, on kind of the other hand, what's the best or most impactful aspect of growing up
Muslim?
RA
Ohhh, I feel like the joy around like celebrating Ramadan and Eid. And like the fam- like the
Arab family gatherings. And like having those experiences as an adult, like those memories of
those happy times, and creating those memories with my nieces and nephews is so special. It's,
it's so meaningful and special. And my parents did such a good job of making it an important
thing. And, yeah, I think the best part is just like what we have now and like what we're able to
teach, like, our young family members, like the celebration, and like, yeah, fasting is super tiring,
especially when- when it's in the summer. And like, I'm super grouchy, because I don't have any
water or coffee, but then you like, eat, and then my mom makes us like really beautiful meal,
and we share it and then we're all tired.
It's like, a beautiful, it's like, beautiful, and, like, fills my heart with joy. And like a sense of
community, even just within my own family. It's like this special thing that we have, that we're
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
celebrating on our own, but also with millions of other people. Like simultaneously. It's it's
beautiful to have that and I'm really thankful... for that and to be proud, I think like, they really did
teach us to be proud. My parents did. Like proud of being Muslim for- all say for myself, like I'm
proud of being Muslim. I'm proud of being where I'm from. And I'm proud of what my family
represents. And I also know better than, like, I know that like when you're identifying as Muslim,
but then you do an evil act like you're not actually a Muslim. That's not what the religion is.
Religion is peace. And that's a beautiful thing. Like that's it is a peaceful religion.
And it's so easy to forget that right? Like, like, literally translates to peace - Islam is peace and
like, it's just a nice thing to carry. And to try to tell people... all religion has like, they're really like,
that's not cool. Like, that's not a great, like, way to see things or to talk of people. But it's, you
can hear hang on to the things that you appreciate and agree with. Yeah, they just I think, for
me, they really did teach me of like, pulling me back to my roots of like, Yeah, I don't like I'm not
the best practicing Muslim. Like, I will absolutely admit that. And I still hold it close and
appreciate it and like have a lot to learn still. So yeah...
RT
...that's really beautiful... Okay, so I want to wrap it up by just asking if there's anything you wish,
like in your schooling and growing up that your teachers and peers would have known about
you and your religion. And you can take it either looking into the past or like looking towards the
future, like, Is there anything that educators should know about their Muslim students?
Yeah. I feel like... one thing that I wish was wish that was different, like from my school
experience, was making sure that students didn't feel like they needed to forget their like native
language, and encouraging you to still use that, and not have to wash it away. And I don't know,
like the best way to do this of like, teaching people to be inclusive, or it gets so hard to say, like,
how people should do it. But I just wish that it was more of an inclusive environment for me and
for my brothers in school.
RA
Because there was no, it was just like this mystical thing that nobody wanted to touch on. And I
think that would have made a really big difference if, you know, if there was enough resources
and enough time for teachers or for them to bring people in just to educate everybody... that- I
think that would make such a big difference. to not make people feel "othered" it or make them
feel like they don't fit in. And I think even now it's so important...
Like, I guess in the cities to it's easier to say like you get a lot of people from different
backgrounds, I guess in certain schools, but it's like more in your face than it is like in the
suburban area. And some suburban areas. I just wish that it was like, I just wish they thought
more about what they were doing. Because it really does like impact your life. Yeah. But how
did they know? I don't know. How would they know to do that when there's such a small
population? Part of me is like, I can't blame them. Then another part is like, why was that
teacher saying that stuff? You know... yeah.
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
Well, hopefully, your story being added to the Minnesota Muslim stories that we're gathering is
at least a step in the right direction.
RA
Yeah, absolutely.
RT
Thank you for sharing.
RA
Yeah, my pleasure.
RT
Excited to add this to the collection.
RA
Thanks.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History Transcript
Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center)
Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student)
This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on
the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019.
Note: Bra... Show more
Oral History Transcript
Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center)
Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student)
This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on
the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019.
Note: Bracketed statements in this transcript were added by the narrator during the
editing process with the intent of clarifying certain facts and references made during the
interview.
Chad Berryman 0:00
So, thanks for sitting down with me again.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:04
A pleasure.
Chad Berryman 0:05
Could you please introduce yourself with full name and date of birth?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:09
Yes. I am Karima Vargas Bushnell, born January 20th, 1953.
Chad Berryman 0:17
Thank you. And I guess just to start, could you tell us a little bit about your upbringing,
where you come from?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:25
Sure, that's kind of interesting. I was born in Reno, Nevada, and lived there till I was 20,
except for one year in boarding school in the LA area.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:37
My father was from a small town in Nevada, tiny little town you wouldn't have heard of. My
mother was from Washington, DC. So, like the main character and imaginary author in my
novel that I wrote--there's a new one coming out pretty soon--like this character I was
mistakenly raised as an East Coast intellectual in the heart of the Western desert. That
made things kind of strange.
Chad Berryman 1:01
Wow. How did you end up here, then, in Minneapolis?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:07
Oh, the short version is I had a relative here. And that's funny. That is the one question I
think I'd just like to leave there. It was kind of a--well, I won't say it was a mistake, but it
was a fluke. It worked out well.
Chad Berryman 1:24
Could you maybe then, rather than yourself, give me a little bit of a general history of Light
Upon Light and then how you came to be associated with Light Upon Light?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:37
Oh, sure. Actually, I don't mind at all talking about myself. Why I moved here just turns out
to be the one little odd thing--
Chad Berryman 1:47
Sure, that's alright.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:48
But I actually, I would love to just tell you, first that-- So, my father was an attorney in Reno,
and my father was, we're pretty sure, part-Native American. I didn't realize till I did a lot of
diversity projects. I was on the board, with Ghafar Lakanwal from Afghanistan, of the
Minnesota Cultural Diversity Center. I was on their advisory board for a few years. And I
was meeting with Native American people as well as others, and I noticed that all these
men here had the hairline and the ear that looked just like my father. They looked like his
brother or his cousin. I had never seen anybody with that before. I mean, straight black
hair, just combed straight back. And something about it just looked like my dad.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 2:31
"That looks like his brother!" "That looks like his cousin! That's weird." And I did find out
later. So, the name was Vargas. And I was an only, I was brought up as an only child. I was
always told that the heredity on his father's side was Spanish. I remember him saying,
“We're Spanish, we're Spanish!" Like that, you know. "Not Mexican. No Mexicans around
here, especially no Indians," you know, right? Well, it turns out the photograph that was
shown to me as my grandfather was not my grandfather, it was my grandmother's brother.
My older half-sister told me this at a certain point. The other picture, actually across the
hall, of the guy on the horse holding the calf, who didn't look like the same guy at all, was
my actual grandfather. And my grandfather was not John Dorsey Vargas, as I was told, he
was Juan Doroteo Vargas. Okay, and I have his Catholic baptismal certificate today. So this
is pretty neat.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 3:31
So, Dad apparently, his mother married somebody she was not supposed to marry
according to the mores of their community. And my dad had a really hard time growing up
and didn't want to talk or think about this in any way. He passed quite a few years ago. I
feel that he would be alright with [my talking about] it now. And I do talk about it now. My
mother, on the other hand, her father was Jewish. And he was not religious. They were
scientists, they didn't believe. She said one time that he believed in assimilation. That's
what they believed. The name was Berliner, and his father had come over from Germany, so
they missed that horror [by coming a generation earlier]. So I was, as my mom used to say,
"I could have a Christian-Jewish conference with myself in a phone booth." She was a
philosophy major at University of Nevada when she was bringing me up. So, I had an
interesting upbringing. I just somehow I wanted to share that with you.
Chad Berryman 4:17
Well, thank you. Absolutely.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:19
Yeah. There was that tangent. You were talking about . . . ? I go on tangents. There was one.
Chad Berryman 4:24
Yeah, of course. So then Light Upon Light-- how does that fit into your narrative?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:32
Well, that's comes quite late in the narrative. My husband, John Hakim Bushnell, and I,
we've been married 35 years. And we started this. I think we started it in, what, about
2010 or 2011? And we incorporated first as an LLC, and I kept telling him "No, that's not
what we want," you know. Do I mean LLC? Is that right? But, you know, like a business. I
mean, "No, John that's the wrong thing." So, then we redid it as a 501(c)(3), which is really
what we are, we're a nonprofit.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 5:04
But this was the culmination of a lifetime of study and doing different things. And this was a
place for these things to happen. So we started it.
Chad Berryman 5:15
So I think one thing that strikes a lot of people about Sufism, and particularly the
manifestations that seem to have most taken root in the US, is an interplay between the
particular and the universal, you know, the local and the global. And I was wondering, you
know, on the sign outside, it mentions, you know, that here, there's events and practices
from two different traditions. And I think it's a beautiful example of this. So, I was
wondering if you could speak to that dynamic a little bit with Light Upon Light. You just
mentioned you were in Istanbul, and, you know, that dynamic between the particular here,
but also the traditional particular and then the greater tradition?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:08
Oh, yes, yes. And we occupy a kind of a cultural borderland in a couple of different ways. To
understand about this, there's a thing you have to know about, and this is the American Sufi
phenomenon and Hazrat Inayat Khan. Have you ever--
Chad Berryman 6:24
I have.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:24
--come across his name? Okay. Well, yes. That's his picture, it's over there. The lovely,
lovely man with a beard.
Chad Berryman 6:29
I thought it looked familiar!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:30
Yeah, yeah. So, he came in--and dates are not my best thing, but approximately 1900 or
1910, he came to the West, and he was first in Europe and then he was in America. There's
a lovely story about him. He came as a musician. They were the Royal Musicians of
Hindustan or something, and it was himself and, I think, a brother and a cousin. Something
along those lines: that he and a couple of relatives, male relatives, came as musicians. And
they came from a house of very highly-honored musicians in India, and Hindu and Muslim
musicians mixed freely in this household and played together. And he was a lovely, you
know, universal person.
He came here and wrote back in horror to his teachers and said, "There's no Islam here,
you should send someone!" And they wrote him back--this is, you know, the version I heard
of this--wrote him back and they said, "Well, you're there." So he got stuck with the job of
trying to introduce Islam to the West. And again, I read in another place, and I could find
these citations somewhere for you with a little digging if it was necessary, but that he had
written or said somewhere that if he had tried to bring Islam in its full and regular and
ordinary form to the West, he said, "About six people would have listened to me in Europe
and America." So, what he did is he created a universalist version of Islam that was suitable
for Victorian westerners. And a couple of Sufi orders came from that. They're now known
as the Inayati orders. And there are basically three of them as far as I know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 8:13
I first got into Sufism, and then my husband did also through me, through something that's
called the Ruhaniat order. I think now it's Ruhaniat International. That is one of these
branches of the Hazrat Inayat Khan orders. And the funny thing about this, you'd run into--I
always kind of characterized it as "hippies and psychologists," at least that's how it felt to
me. So, I met up with this in 1976 in Spokane. I was involved in yoga, and not the physical
yoga, but more the philosophy and the practices and the breathing and some of these
different things, meditation, these things. My Swami Atmanishtananda Ruth Reynolds, who
was an amazing woman, passed many years ago, had a little place called the Vedanta Yoga
Center in Spokane.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:03
And I was one of her devotees. She had about 15, and we were very close to her, and she
loved us. She wouldn't initiate me because she said I was too immature, and she was very
smart [not to initiate me then, because I was immature]. And I was about 23, 24 at the time.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:16
But one day, there was a friend named, at the time, Waduda Majeed. And she used to come
to our stuff, and we made friends. And she said, "Hey, you should come to this thing I'm
doing on Tuesday nights." I said, "Okay, what is it?" "Well, it's called Sufi Dancing." "What's
that?" Well, that made no sense to me. What is it? You know, I didn't mind, I was intrigued.
"Well, I can't really explain it, you have to come." So I came to this.
And this is the thing that is now called the Dances of Universal Peace. It's a form of spiritual
practice, a group spiritual practice in which simple circle dances--simple moves taken
actually from folk dance--you do these while reciting the Sacred Names and mantras and
holy words from all traditions, from traditions of the world, you know. World religions, but
also they brought in, you know, some from the Native Americans and different things. I
remember doing this one time with some actual Indians in the back of the room, giggling,
kind of like 'look at them!'" And my husband was not into the Indian Dances after that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:17
But this was something, and this has spread around the world now and gotten to be quite a
big thing. So these American Sufis in the Inayati orders, you'd meet people that had Arabic
names, and you would meet people who did dhikrullah, zikr, the remembrance of the Divine
through the repetition of La Illaha Illa Allah, or [other sacred phrases], you know, but they
did not consider themselves Muslims in any way. And most of them still don't. There are
about 12 that do in the one order. I was talking to a guy from it the other day.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:51
So, it was very odd, you'd meet your, I don't know, Farishta or Jamila or somebody, you
know, "Hi, I'm Jamila and I'm from California and I go to zikr once a week," and "Muslim?
No, what?" [They had Muslim names and did Muslim practices, but they didn't identify as
Muslims and had no interest or knowledge about it.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:08
It was a funny thing, a funny cultural phenomenon. So, I got in with this, I led these dances
for a number of years. I had also done--see, I'm a world religions person, I have been all my
life.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:24
I had an experience of God, sometime between three and five years old. And I wasn't raised
in a religious way really at all--with a couple of little minor exceptions--but in general, not.
But I had experiences of God. I learned about God from the inside, not the outside. Rather
than somebody telling me something, I had to like, "What is this thing that happened? And
what's that?"
And you know, and I even remember, this is a funny thing. My mom was driving me to
school--I think junior high. And so, you know, I was about 13. And I was trying to--I might
have been younger, it might have been to grade school, but I think it was to junior high-and I was trying to explain to her what I wanted to do, what I was interested in. And she
was this philosophy major, and she always encouraged me to think, and she always talked
to me and encouraged me to tell her my ideas. And we spent, I don't know, thousands of
hours of discussion. And I was an only, so I was her project, I was like her science project.
But I was trying to explain to her what it was I was interested in and what I wanted and
what I wanted to do with my life. And I remember her turning. We must have been at a stop
sign. She turned and looked at me. She said "Metaphysics?" and I had never heard the word
before. And I said "Yes!" So, you know, there you go.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 12:31
I'm not quite sure where I was going with that. So I had this background--I know! So, I liked
very much--the Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism is more kind of, I don't know, high flown.
And you could make diagrams and it's intellectual and high spiritual and this kind of thing.
But then of course, then there's the bhakta, which is the passionate singing, singing and
dancing with the love of God and these beautiful songs. So I had really enjoyed that at a
certain time. And for some reason, in Minneapolis here--and this was before our kids were
born. But I was married and I wanted to go find somebody doing this. At the time, I knew
this as bhajan and kirtan. Kirtan's gotten big now, which, whoever thought that would
happen? That's a funny thing. I looked around, nobody was doing it. So I thought, well, let's
start some, try to do this.
I was at the Meditation Center, I think they call it again now, over in North Minneapolis on
Sixth Street. It was the Center for Higher Consciousness for a while, and the name's gone
back and forth. But I went over there and they said, yes, you can have a space and you can
do this like once a week or whatever. And one guy showed up, who turned out to be the
main proponent, the main implementer of kirtan in the Cities now, he's one of the main
guys doing this. And we did, we started doing these chants, beautiful chants. This is going to
get to Sufis in a minute here.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:05
My husband started coming and we were doing this. And then we started something that
was called the Sunday Night Chanters, and we had about 20 people I think, and we were
not just doing these [Hinduism-based songs], but we were doing spiritual songs from a
bunch of different traditions. So, some of the Christian ones that are more really kind of
experiential, and, you know, rousing and heart-touching. And somebody showed up that
had some Earth spirituality chants and stuff. And then I was remembering back to my days
of the Dances of Universal Peace and I thought, "Oh, bring in some of these Sufi songs,"
which are very, very beautiful, some of them, they're powerfully affecting.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:39
I was bringing what I could remember because this is, this was now about 1984, maybe?
Yeah, around '83, '84. And then, I got--and these things happen on the spiritual path--I got a
flyer in the mail. I hadn't had anything thing to do with the Dances since the 70s. And at the
time, I was in Spokane, and then I was in Reno, and then I was here. And here's this flyer,
saying there's--at the time they called it Sufi Dancing--a Sufi Dancing weekend in Puget
Sound, Washington. And you know, and I said, "Okay, you know, I want to go." So I went,
and my husband was very nice and sweet about it. And, you know, he didn't mind me going
at all and I went, and I came back and I was completely into this. I was drenched in these
dances. Can I sing a little tiny thing into the mic?
Chad Berryman 15:28
Yeah, of course!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28
Okay, lovely. So here's just to give you an example. Again, there are things in Sanskrit and
things in Arabic and things in Hebrew and other languages. You know, but this one I love;
it's been with me lately. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi are two of the Divine Names, the 99 Names of
Allah, Asma al-Husna, and can be translated as O Healer, O Remedy. That's how they do it.
So, the one is for everyone and the other one is this specific--kind of like in Christianity,
"The sun shines on the just and the unjust." Ya Shafi is a little more like that. Ya Kafi is what
you need in this moment, what will work for this specific individual. They translate that, "O
Healer, O Remedy". So, you get these two parts going at once, so [singing]:
Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28
Let me do Thy will Allah, (I'll get my drum.) Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah,
Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Ya Shafi,
Ya Kafi. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:00
So you'd have two or even possibly three of circles, three concentric circles. If you have
three, you have people in the middle going, "La Illaha Illa Allah," like that, which is a zikr
phrase, right? And then you have people doing these and doing different very simple
movements, you know, hold hands, raise their hands, come down like this, or, you know,
moving this way, moving that way. This kind of thing. So these are the Dances. I really,
really loved them.
So I came back from this weekend in Spokane, and I was all into this. I was like, "John, we
got to start doing this!" He's like, no, he didn't want to, he was sitting on the ground with
his drum and he was very happy. He did not want to get up and do these silly dances. And
they can look kind of silly when you first get into it if you run into the wrong ones. And he
ran into one of those. I remember him and some other man going, "Hu hu make-aloha". He's
like, no. He's a big bear-like guy with a big beard, you know, he's like, "No, I don't wanna do
that," you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:54
He wound up absolutely, eventually, falling in love with it. And now, for many years, he was
the one that led the Dances after I'd moved on to other things. So we made this transition
from the Sunday Night Chanters which was merely the singing and drumming, no
movement and no standing up or any of that, to the Dances of Universal Peace as they're
called now, and at the time, Sufi Dancing. And then we did that for quite a while. We did
that. I led that for six years, back in the day. And he was just drumming to start with and
then he kind of fell in love with it and took it over. And we had a little power struggle about
that, which was exciting. [Laughs.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:30
But then, at a certain point, also, I found a funny thing was happening with me. I started
getting drawn toward Islam. And this happened in three different ways simultaneously.
One thing was the Islamic-based dances were really touching me and calling me much more
than any of the others. And they're all about equally wonderful. They're all powerful, but
the different traditions, you know, [have different flavors and] are attractive to different
people.
Chad Berryman 18:53
Sure.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:54
So that was one thing that started happening. Then, we were doing this in the basement of
Walker Methodist--it's a long name--Walker United Community Methodist Church, or
something like that, or just Walker Church they call it, right. It burned down and they
rebuilt it now. But with a delightful pastor by the name of Brian, I can't remember [his last
name] at this moment.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 19:18
He was really funny. My son's name was Garek--his American name is Garek--Isa Nuraddin.
But he was a baby and this Brian, he'd hold him up in the air and go "Gark!" I think he
thought his name was funny. You know, you'd spell that G-A-R-K, Gark, it was just very silly.
But, we did the Dances there. And we got to know Brian, Brian Peterson was his name,
much beloved community activist and guy in town. He died a number of years ago. But he
contacted me at a certain point, you know, "Karima, I want to talk to you," and called me
into his office. And he wanted to start something that was going to be called the Spiritual
Discovery Center: a series of workshops and classes and whatnot on different--and some
kind of social things and I don't know, you know, emotional--I mean no exercises or
anything like that--but a spectrum of things. But I was interested in the spiritual things the
most. But he wanted to bring different teachers in and do different stuff. And would I like to
be the head of it? And I said absolutely I would, and I had a fine time doing that. It was just
great.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:19
So, in the course of that, at one time--I have a dear, dear friend who is a rabbi. And the thing
that's fun is he's actually the editor on my forthcoming book. He was also the editor on my
first book. He's the loveliest rabbi you would ever want to meet. I don't think he'd mind my
telling this. He used to walk in the Mayday Parade with an Israeli flag and a Palestinian flag
in his Hasidic garb. And he took some guff from some people for that, but he's just a
wonderful person. But let's see, now I'm out on a limb like a jazz musician, how to--where
did I come from?
Chad Berryman 20:54
The three ways--
Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:55
Oh, I know what it was. So the rabbi was already a friend and we had talked and somehow,
we--he had the idea or I had the idea--somehow the idea came about of having a trialogue, a
Muslim/Christian/ Jewish conversation with a panel. And that was pretty new then. He
said--Rabbi Gershom is his name--and he thought that this was the first time this had been
done in the Cities. I could find what the year was, I'm not sure right now, but it would have
been somewhere in the '80s. And so, you know, Christians are not hard to find. We found a
nice minister from a Protestant congregation. I don't remember his name now, very nice
guy. And we had Rabbi Gershom. And we got Caesar Farah who came and moderated, who
was a professor at the University. It was wonderful. I think he was Lebanese Christian, I
believe. I may be wrong on that, that's my memory. I know he was Christian. I think he was
originally Lebanese.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 21:53
But we had to find a Muslim someplace. Who knew, you know, "Where are they? I don't
know where they are," you know. So, I got the name of a mosque and called up. And they
were a little hesitant at first, like, "Who're you?" and it was kind of strange. And I met these
lovely two men.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 22:15
So, Imam Bilal, but not the Imam Bilal I know now, completely different, and Imam . . . I'm
so embarrassed, I can't remember his name. Imam Akbar was the other one. And they were
two friends. They were two of the leaders within the mosque. At the time they called it
Masjid Mu-JAD-id. Now I'd say Muja-DEED, and I'm not sure if they were just doing a
variation or what, but they called it Masjid MujADdid--and it was on the corner of, I think it
is Fourth Street and 38th. Right near here, you can see that building. Yes, that building was
some kind of Sikh organization or something after there at some point. Well, then they
changed it. At a certain point they changed it to the Masjid Al-Haqq, you know, mosque of
truth--and then it became the Masjid An-Nur. Their Nur is, you know, Nur means light, so
you hear the name all the time [for Muslim organizations]. It's no connection with us. And
they moved across the river and they're over in Northeast now. So, the Masjid An-Nur
that's there is the descendant or the continuation of this mosque, predominately an African
American mosque. Lovely people, plus they had those bean pies, which are so good. But
from the old days, [the original Nation of Islam], you know, right? So I met these guys.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 23:26
We had a number of dinners and things to talk or just, you know, to get together with
Caesar Farah and everybody that was involved. And as I got to know them more, and the
event went very well, it was very nice. But the more I got to know them, the more I felt like--I think I wrote about it, I called it a strange subterranean connection--I felt as though we
shared something. And that there were many, many things that I, in my worldview, that
was like their worldview. And there was just this, there was just a connection. I became
quite good friends with Imam Akbar. We once went with--and of course, it would not be
proper for the two of us to be together with just the two of us, so he had a Muslim woman
that he knew who was delightful, I don't remember her name now--and the three of us
went in a van up to a prison up north, I think near Duluth--this is many years ago, so I'm not
quite sure where it was--to talk to the Muslim prisoners, and he told us what he wanted us
to say. I went completely off the rails and said something completely different and told
them that because they're African American they're, you know, "You are oppressed, and it's
not your fault!" And he didn't seem to mind.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 24:40
But the whole way up, we were reading from the introduction to the Yusuf Ali Qur'an,
which was just wonderful. And, we're reading from this, and we were talking, and the three
of us just had the most special, beautiful time. And during this whole [time period], getting
to know these people, at one point I was in a house. And I think I was the first Caucasian
person that had ever been in this house. And this dear little girl just came and climbed up
on my lap and just looked up at me--hopefully not because I was had a funny color skin, you
know, I hope that's not what it was--but we just kind of fell in love. She was about five,
maybe. Oh, and I loved her, it's great you know. So I had these wonderful experiences. And I
felt such a kinship.
And then, and this will give the time of actually when this was happening, I guess a little
better, because the first Gulf War was declared. I was sitting there listening to my radio,
and I was absolutely convinced that this was going to be the end of the world. Oh, and I'm
going to backtrack a little bit. They thought it was kind of funny that I said I was a Sufi but I
wasn't a Muslim. That was odd. And I got every reaction from, "Well, you can't be that," to
"That's kind of weird." You know, there was a range. I remember standing at Walker
Church in front of this large group with a bunch of these folks in it. I said, "Well, you say you
can't have a non-Muslim Sufi, but like, here I am, so I'm proof, I'm here." They were very
polite. But it would be a little bit like saying, "Well, I'm a Hasid, but I'm not Jewish," you
know. Or "I'm a Christian mystic, but I'm not Christian, though." That's how it sounded to
them, just kind of nuts, really.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:19
Although there have [historically] been some people that have taken initiation into Sufi
orders that were not Muslim. And in fact, our order initiates people--and I'll say something
else about that--you don't have to be Muslim to take hand, which is what we call it, into our
Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:36
Let's see, so I want to finish up this segment because there's just a little bit more to this. So
it was the night the first Gulf War came on the radio, and I was absolutely sure this was the
end of the world. This was the beginning of the end of the world. And I realized, "It's the
end of the world--I want to be with these Muslims, I want to be one of them." And I phoned
up, I phoned Imam Akbar and his wife and said this. I can't remember quite what he said to
me on the phone, but it was very supportive. And then he wrote me a letter that I still have
somewhere, and the line I remember, is it says, "You are a beautiful Muslim soul." That was
in there. And it was the most touching, lovely thing. So at a certain point, I did take shahada.
I guess the three directions that this came from... the falling in love with the Muslim Dances
of Universal Peace, and then the meeting with Imam Bilal and Imam Akbar, and particularly
Imam Akbar, [and suddenly finding many books on Sufism that said you had to be a Muslim
to be a Sufi, which made me doubt my authenticity.] But I didn't take shahada for quite a
long time after that either.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 27:47
Then I had this back and forth, because and I didn't know about Wahhabis. And you're
familiar with Wahhabism, I'm sure--I didn't know about this. I had a series of wonderful
and terrible experiences with Muslims, so I couldn't figure it out. Because I would meet
someone, and I guess I can encapsulate this with a little incident that happened in a parking
garage. There used to be a lot of Somali or other Muslim--I think they were mostly Somali,
maybe some Ethiopians and stuff--parking attendants, you know, and you'd go out and
they'd give you your ticket, and or you give them the ticket to pay and all that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 28:20
And so one time I was there, and there were two guys in the booth, and I went out and one
of them--I think I might have said salaam aleikum or something to him--and this guy, it's
like we just fell into each other's eyes. Not in any romantic way, but just in a universal love
kind of way. This was the most beautiful, expansive, you know, sometimes you meet
somebody who just clicks like that. And so just this love, this acceptance, these connections
on higher levels, just this wonderful, you know, "My brother, there you are!"
And then I happened to catch eyes with the other guy, and he was the exact opposite. I have
never seen such disgust and rejection, and you know, "Oh, you're evil, I hate you!" It was
the exact opposite. That was crazy. And this was within, you know, within a half a minute or
a minute. And then I drove on--"Boy, that was kind of weird," you know? So I would meet
Muslims that were so--and women also, I kind of seem like I'm talking about men, but
women also--people that were so loving and so accepting and so generous and so kind. And
they were everything that I wanted to be, and they talked about what they wanted for the
world, and it completely agreed with everything I wanted, and everything they believed,
and justice and kindness and faith and it was perfect.
And then I would meet people that were so extremely rule-oriented, and very, to me, like
really nitpicky--even though I didn't have really a problem with that then because I wanted
to learn, you know. But one time at the masjid this woman jumped all over me because I
had a little tiny bit of hair showing, which you're not supposed to. And now I can suit up
properly with the best of 'em and not show any, you know, but I had a little tiny bit of hair
showing on my forehead or something. And she really jumped on me and really gave me a
lecture. Imam Akbar kind of scolded her. And then I said, "Oh, no, please, please, I want to
learn, thank you, sister, thank you." But I didn't take shahada for a long time because of
these confusing, alternating experiences.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 30:15
Eventually I kind of got to a point where I didn't know what to do because I felt as though I
didn't really fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the Muslims, mainly because I was not
willing to say that Hinduism is a lie. You know, Buddhism--we had sponsored Tibetans, we
had Tibetans living in our house, and they're impressive people. I'm not personally drawn
to Buddhism, but Hinduism I'd had a deep connection with and found a lot of truth in that.
Or I couldn't say that--it's funny, I wanted to be a Catholic since I was a little tiny peanut.
The people next door were Catholics, I would have joined in a heartbeat. The kids, their
kids, they had no use for it. They didn't want anything to do with it. But I was upset that
they got to go to catechism and I didn't get to go to catechism and I wanted to go. My mom
was a big Planned Parenthood buff, so that was never going to happen, you know.
But I was not willing to say that these other religions were false and wrong. I couldn't do it,
you know. So I didn't fit in anywhere. It's as though I was in this canyon with nothing under
my feet and, you know, communities on either side, and I didn't go anywhere. And then I
met Shaykh Nur al-Jerrahi, whose picture is over there, who I will show you at the
appropriate moment. I wrote him a poem one time and I said that I was like him, but, "I'm
an ant struggling up a small rock with a grain of sugar while you climb a mountain with a
ton of wild honey." So I had done all the same things he'd done except he did them on a
grand scale.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 31:43
He studied world religions. He was first at Yale and then he was at Columbia and he'd
written a bunch of books and he traveled all over. He practiced the religions, he really,
really practiced them, and he was just magnificent. And he had taken shahada with Shaykh
Muzaffer al-Jerrahi of Istanbul, who was this beautiful Shaykh whose picture is also around
here. So, with Shaykh Nur I found somebody that I could become Muslim with and yet not
have to say I renounce Christianity, I renounce, you know [my previous traditions]. So that
was it. So then, there's me.
So then for many years, my husband was still a Ruhaniat American non-Muslim Sufi. I've
been a Muslim since 1993. And you know, Muslims will tell you you're a "revert", "Every
child is born a Muslim," but to me that's speaking about a different level. But I took shahada
in '93. And I gave up [expecting that my husband would ever convert]! I'd tell people, "My
husband is non-Muslim," and I had a Saudi guy one time, "Well, you must divorce him!"
"Well, no, I don't think I'm going to do that". But then the women, they'd say like, "Inshallah
sister, inshallah someday." And I'd say, "Oh, yeah, inshallah," that'll happen, you know. And
about, I don't know, three or four years ago now, he wound up taking shahada, which
surprised the heck out of me. I wasn't even around. He did it at a Sufi camp and he came
back and told me that he'd done it. So that was a lot of fun.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 32:58
He is still a teacher of the Ruhaniat order, which is one of these Inayati orders from Hazrat
Inayat Khan. And I am a circle leader--khalifa is the title--in the Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order,
under Shaykha Fariha. And so we have these two parallel organizations. So there, now that
kind of explains the whole thing pretty much.
Chad Berryman 33:24
Yeah!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 33:25
All right.
Chad Berryman 33:27
Kind of going off of that, I think you hinted at it. You were talking about Shaykh Muzaffer,
you know, these other people. And also thinking about, you know, things you mentioned
concerning relationships with various Muslims and various Muslim communities. Could
you speak a little bit about how you feel, or how taking the shahada or how just practicing
Sufism, however you want to interpret your journey, and how that has changed the manner
in which you feel connection to these people, these communities? Not just in and around
the Twin Cities, but, you know, like, Shaykh Muzaffer obviously is a very concrete
connection to Istanbul.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 34:21
Yes. Actually, the thing I want to touch for a moment on is the thing with African American
Muslims. Because I, and again, you know, I know this is going to be archived, and I have no
issues about saying this, I'm proud of it. It was great. And my husband has no issues with it
either. Because I'm a kid from the 70s, so, you know, I was a hippie. But I had an
approximately four-year relationship with an African American man as my significant
other, which we were quite the comedy act, because he was six-foot-three and thin, and I'm
five feet--well I was five two at the time. And I had my little Indian print skirt, and we both
had our sandals, and he had the guru whites. I don't know if you've ever--sort of floaty
material and like a Panama hat with bells on it, right? We were hilarious. And I had the little
square glasses, you know?
And we hitchhiked all around Nevada, California, and Washington with a little dog by the
name of Ratty, for Ratlips. We didn't call him that, there's a story about that, too. And, I had
my guitar and we had our backpacks or whatever we had, and a bright yellow bass fiddle
because he was a musician and some fool had painted this thing bright yellow. We had
bought it, and eventually I think we stripped it off or he did and you know, put it back to its
natural color. But you know, you see this circus act hitchhiking on the road. And people
loved us. They wanted to pick us up, they just loved us, you know, especially with the bright
yellow bass fiddle and the little dog and the whole deal, you know. So we had a lot of fun.
So I had connections with the African American community before meeting Muslims
because I lived with his family for a while, and then we lived with some friends of his in a
house in San Jose, California. 12th Street, which I guess was considered kind of rough. We
hitchhiked when we first got there. And it was a beautiful night out and I went for a walk
around the block. I guess people were unloading, people were whatever, they were talking,
whatever was going on. I went for a walk around the block. I got back and about six people
said, "What were you doing? Where were you?" I said I went for a walk around the block.
"Walk around the block, are you insane?"
Karima Vargas Bushnell 36:19
So it's pretty funny. But I got a good course in some sociology and different things from
these people. Because it helped me understand some things I had never understood. And
the moment--I do have a story about that. So it was on the front porch of the house on 12th
Street. And I said, you know, the ignorant questions you have when you don't know any
better. I said, "Well, you guys, like I know slavery was really, really horrible and awful. But,
you know, that was a long time ago. I mean, wasn't that a long time, isn't it time to move on
from that?"
And it's funny, I've always had a lot of friendships with men. I don't know why. I have good
friendships with women too, but I always, that's what happens. That was funny. When I
became Muslim, I didn't realize I was going to become a Muslim woman. I thought I was just
going to become a Muslim. That was a shock. Big shock.
But anyway, three of these guys--and my guy, Jack, he was not there, he was probably off
playing a gig, he played all the time--and they whirled around on me with no anger, but
great intensity. And they said, "No, it's still it's happening! It's happening now!" And this
was probably 1975. So it was a big wake-up call for me.
And then somehow, I had the feeling that I'd ducked under a fence and come out on the
other side living in San Jose and living with these folks. I don't know what it was--if
something changed in the way I walked or how I presented myself or something. Even
when I was by myself. It used to be the white people would see me and the black people
wouldn't see me. Now the black people could see me and the white people would ignore
me. It was the oddest thing. And they'd greet, you know, and I missed that when I moved to
Minneapolis, the way people greet each other in the street. You get that sometimes here,
but there that was really the custom. And so being greeted by all these lovely African
American men and women and greeting them back and it was just normal, it was just great.
You know, so I had that background.
So I was very pleased when I met the Muslims here, and they were all African American, the
ones I knew. And at one point early on, one of the sisters--this is one of my couple of first
times in the Masjid Mujaddid--and she said, "Sister, we know some white Muslim women.
We can introduce you to them so you'll be more comfortable." And I just burst into tears.
Because my understanding was that Islam was not about that, that I would finally be able to
move beyond that and just be a human being with other human beings, you know? So that
was a big disappointment.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 38:47
Yeah, so I've done this very naive thing twice in my life where, you know, "These people are
the bad people. And they're the phonies, and I'm going to get away from them. And I'm
going to these people who are the real people, the good people, the right people." So I did
that with hippies. And then you find out there are phony hippies, and there are people who
are just as snobbish about their ripped jeans, and whatever, as these other people are
about their fancy suits. There's no difference. The only difference is the costume. So then I
made the same mistake with black people, you know, "All black people are good and nice
and kind. They're the good people," and I did that. And of course that also is not the case.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:24
So, you asked me about my identity with or, you know, my feelings toward different
communities. So there was that. That's precious to me. Because even now, there's segment
of people that will just look at me as--of course, if I wore the hijab all the time, it'd help, and
I don't. I wear it for prayer. And I wear it on 'Eid. And I wear it for the zikr--but a certain
number of people will just look at me as a Muslim sister and another human being and
there's not that color business, you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:57
But you also mentioned Istanbul. I did travel there. I spent two weeks in 2012 in Istanbul
and Konya, and I love it so much, and I want to go back. And that is a place that I have
imagined living there many times. Of course, the situation politically now there is not too
pleasant, you know. But I hope to go back someday. I love Shaykh Muzaffer though I never
met him. He was Shaykh Nur's teacher. There used to be a book with a photograph of
Shaykh Muzaffer on the back. And the book, I think we had it over here, but I don't think we
have that one. I have that picture somewhere. It was removed, because there was a group
that wanted to republish it, but there was a picture of him smoking. He's got a cigarette.
He's got a cup of coffee and a cigarette. He had great big hands. The coffee cup looks like a
doll's teacup.
But because there are Muslim schools of law, as I understand it--and this could be wrong.
So if I'm wrong, you know, apologies. The four madhabs, I don't know the plural, of Sunni
Islam. There are a couple of them in which smoking is forbidden and a couple in which it's
merely disapproved. Or maybe there's a couple where it's neutral and a couple where it's
disapproved, and nobody forbids it. I'm not sure. But anyway, these guys were not down
with the smoking. They got a different picture.
But in this original picture, he had the most beautiful, charming smile on his face, kind of a
glimmer in his eye. And the Dances of Universal Peace, the American Sufi thing I was talking
about, used to have what we called Sufi Camp. It could be a weekend, it could be a week,
you'd go somewhere--it was blissful. And they would sell books at these, of course, and
there'd be a book table that was there. And there'd be this picture of Shaykh Muzaffer on
this book. And I don't know, the book must have been turned over, or I'm wrong and it was
on the front, I'm not sure. But I'd walk by that, and he'd always catch my eye and twinkle at
me. And I was like, "Oh, that's weird." So the picture was like, "Oh, hello!" That was pretty
fun.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 41:50
But Shaykh Nur was the teacher of my life. He's the one people write about, "Oh, and then I
met my guru and everything changed." That was him, you know, for me. And many people-his American name is Lex Hixon. And he wrote, I think, about 10 books on different world
religions. And many people who knew him believed that he was an enlightened being, and I
did, you know. I mean he was like nobody I ever met. But now I have this wonderful teacher
called Imam Bilal Hyde. And in a completely different way, he is equally amazing. So I've
been blessed twice. And I'm studying Qur'an and things with him, you know?
Chad Berryman 42:33
You mentioned being in New York. Could you speak a little bit about connections between
the center here--and I believe from my knowledge there's the one in New York and then
also one in Mexico City--and, you know, how often do you all interact? How close is that
community?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 43:02
Yes, that's a really good question. So Shaykha Fariha is the head of the whole thing. And the
two largest groups are New York and Mexico City. Shaykha Amina Taslima is in Mexico City.
And I have pictures--I wish I could get the pictures somehow into the archive --but I have a
picture of the two of them together. And they're like a couple of, I don't know, a couple of
opposite angels. Shaykha Fariha is very ethereal, and Shaykha Amina Taslima is pretty
down to earth, but very smart--I mean, really spiritual, but in a completely different way.
And a wonderful sense of humor, also. I guess they both have that, but in different ways. So
those are the two biggest groups.
Aside from that, there are smaller circles around the country and in some other places in
the world. There was one in Senegal. I'm not sure if that's still operating because Ummu
Malik, who was the woman heading that, had a daughter in a terrible car accident and they
brought her here--not here--but to New York for the healing and stuff. And so I don't know
what ever happened with that circle. But there was one there. There's one in Australia,
there's one in Germany. There are one or two in Puerto Rico. And offhand, I can't think
where else, but there are some other ones. And then different places in the US. So we are
one of those circles.
Those were going on when Shaykh Nur was around and they were called the Circles of Nur
at the time. This is when we were still part of the Helveti Jerrahi order based in Istanbul.
We were forced to break with them because a more conservative Shaykh than Shaykh
Muzaffer came in and he would not acknowledge the leadership of a woman. That [lack of
acknowledgement] just wasn't cool, and Shaykha Fariha had tried everything. But she was
our Shaykha. Shaykh Muzaffer made her a Shaykha. There's a green turban that's put on the
person's head ceremonially when they're made a shaykh, and Shaykh Muzaffer put it on
Shaykh Nur, and then he took it off Shaykh Nur and put it on Shaykha Fariha at the same
time. So she was initiated at that same level. She didn't really take up her teaching
responsibilities so much--she did some obviously--but she didn't do as much until he
became ill and passed.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:18
But the new leadership would not acknowledge her. They kept talking about her husband
and he was not--that wasn't him at all. They were like, "Oh, please send your husband to
talk to us." Well, no. So, regretfully, then, we did break from them and became the Nur
Ashki Jerrahi order. And we consider our Pirs, our founding saints, as Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi,
same as the Helveti Jerrahi, but also Shaykh Muzaffer and Shaykh Nur are also our Pirs. I
forget what the question was. Oh, you asked how often?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:50
Yes. A group from here went a few years ago, seven of us from here went to New York and
spent I think a week there with them. And we stayed in the Dergah--if you’re a dervish
there's a place you can stay upstairs, just on the mats or whatever--and had the most
beautiful time. It was very transforming and a blessing for us.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 46:11
The circle guides do get together, usually once a year or once every two years. I'm hoping
it's going to be once a year. And we get together sometimes in New York in Yonkers where
they have--this was Effendi's house that Shaykha Fariha and her husband at the time got
for him. Big, beautiful house. And so we stay there in Yonkers. Or sometimes we meet at a
retreat center in Albuquerque, a Catholic retreat center. So we meet different places once a
year for maybe about five days. And then we're constantly in touch by email and whatnot.
Chad Berryman 46:51
Could you speak a little bit about how you visualize or how you understand the Light Upon
Light Center's place or role within kind of the social ecosystem of Minneapolis or even just
of this neighborhood?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:11
That's a great question. That's a really good question. And we're kind of funny. If you look
at our website, we would seem to be extremely big and active, you know. But actually, I
think we're in an expansion phase. So we had been kind of contracted, almost to the point
where we would have had to either forget the whole thing or be reborn and change. And I
think we've been reborn, and we're changing. We're a place--our vision and mission
statement are kind of fun. I don't know if I can remember them just out of my head, which
is kind of silly. Oh, that's extremely silly. I have it on a piece of paper over there, I'm going
to walk over--
Chad Berryman 47:21
Absolutely.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:23
Because it's very germane to your question. Yes, thank goodness, I have it. You can take one
of these home. Okay, so, Light Upon Light Sufi center, our vision: "A vibrant, interconnected
community of people growing on the spiritual path." Our mission: "Helping people awaken
through Sufism and related mystical traditions." And when we first started, we had people
from other traditions presenting, but always the mystics, we always were going for that.
Not the cultural religion, or, you know, the religion that you go do it because you were
taught it and it's comforting. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we always kind of
went for the mystics [those who seek actual experience of God-Presence.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 48:33
So it is our goal to connect with other mystical paths. That actually is having an awakening
with us right now, There's something exciting going on with that. There are some mystical
Christians--and, again, my memory for details is not always the best--but they're right in
the neighborhood, right nearby. And they used to come and do a thing here sometimes, and
we'd go to theirs. And we've had Hindu folks come here, you know, practitioners of some
forms of that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:07
It's funny, we're a borderland. We're also very open to gay people, transgender people,
whatever. We're a place where everybody's welcome. And I think we're a place for people
that might not be comfortable in some other places, you know. A thing we have in common
with the Dergah al-Farah [our New York headquarters,] that I love is that we do have actual
born Muslims that come, you know. [American Sufi groups normally don't.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:36
So over the years--this sounds like a tiny proportion, but actually we are pretty tiny. I
mean, a big group for us over our whole life would be maybe 30-40 people. That's big.
That's a big gathering, you know. So a lot of times you get six people, you get eight people.
Sometimes the weather is bad, and you get two people or nobody, you know. Now where
was I going? I do that. I get off on my jazz riff and I can't get back. It's like you get off on the
branch and it's too thin out there and you can't get back. Oh, yes, I've lost my thread. Oh,
how silly.
Chad Berryman 50:12
Talking about connections with other mystics, the difference between you and Dergah alFarah and the born Muslims.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 50:19
Oh, that was it, right. So over the years, we've had an Iraqi man and an Iranian woman who
both used to come, and he still comes when he's in town. He's a dear friend. This is Sami
Rasouli who is a well-known. He started something called the Muslim Peace Teams. And he
goes back and forth between Najaf, where he's from, and here. He was here for many years.
He had a beautiful restaurant. He was on the cover of the Twin Cities magazine right before
9/11, the month before 9/11 he was on there. And of course that just devastated his life,
and he eventually wound up going back to Najaf and did work with the Sunnis and the
Shias. A bunch of Shia people went to a Sunni town that had been devastated and picked up
their garbage and did stuff for them, and people were hugging and dancing in the streets.
And he's a lovely person. So he goes there and he lives there I guess most of the time, and
then he comes back here and raises money and brings it over. And he brings groups back
and forth. He's brought Iraqi artists and mayors and stuff here, and they're very active. So
he used to come.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 51:24
[The Iranian was] a delightful woman who was a mathematician and moved out to
California to do her PhD in math for her teaching. We're still in touch. Two Turkish guys.
One of them moved because of his wife's career, but he still keeps in touch. Another man
that comes now sometimes. And now, on our Zoom zikr, we have a lovely sister from Cairo.
Oh, and she's still in her--we have to stop and say a quick prayer for her because she is
doing her PhD dissertation as we speak--not dissertation, defending her dissertation, if that
is the right word--she's in front of her committee as we speak.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 52:06
So, for Kabira, which is her Sufi name. Somebody just told me you only do the Fatiha for
dead people, but not our order, we do 'em for anybody. So, for Kabira and her success right
now with her committee may it all go well- Dearest Allah Al Fatiha Allahuma sali Allah,
sayyidina Muhammad salallahu 'alahi wa salam. Bismillahir rahmanir rahim. Alhamdulilahi
rabil 'alamin. Ar-rahmanir rahim. Maliki yaum ad-din. 'Iyaaka na'budu wa 'iyaaka nasta'iin.
Ihdinas siratal mustaqim. Siratal ladhina 'an 'amta alayhim. Ghayril maghdubi 'alayhim wa
la daaliin. Ameen. And asking the intercession of Hazrati Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi, Mother
Amina Taslima, mother of our Pir, Muzaffer Ashki al-Jerrahi, his teacher Ibrahim Fahradeen
al-Jerrahi, and Nur al-Anwar al-Malik al-Habib al-Jerrahi, please intercede and let this go
well, oh beloveds, thank you so much, ya Allah, ya Hu! Didn't forget it, ameen. Okay, very
good. I just noticed the time and realized she is in front of her committee as we speak. So I
have no idea where I was!
Chad Berryman 53:24
No, that's all right. I'm wondering, you know, having gotten a lot of background now, if you
could--I'm sure there are many, and it's probably difficult to choose--but do you have, you
know, one or a handful of favorite memories or moments in the history of even just the
space right here?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 53:52
Oh, that's very nice. By the way, sometimes our bigger events we have upstairs. They have a
big room, they call it the Sunroom--you know, wooden floor for dancing and such. Oh, my
goodness. That's funny. I don't think I can do that. It's just kind of a continuous flow.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:18
I have wonderful memories. Sometimes somebody leaves, sometimes something happens
and somebody leaves. So I have wonderful memories of a couple that wound up actually
moving on. So it was heaven, and then it kind of turned to heartbreak. These things happen
in organizations at times, you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:37
Not a particular thing. But we've had, you know, Eid celebrations--we've had some
powerful zikrs, dhikrullah, in here. We've had some wonderful Dances. Just, there's that
moment where you touch in where you think you're leading something and you're trying to
do a good job, and you're feeling like a fool and hoping you can get it right. And then all of a
sudden, it's taken out of your hands. And it's Allah.
And actually a lot of people, you know, we have some people that see visions and such, and
people see a lot in here, they see a lot of beings. They see a lot of, you know, Sufis, and Sufi
teachers or, "Well, I don't know who that was, and then there was this pillar of light came
down,"--people see a lot of stuff in here. So there's a lot going on in this. And that's in Islam
too, the tradition that the angels attend the zikrs. People see these things, and I don't see
them, but I sense them very strongly. So it's more just not particular events, but that
stepping into sacred space, which really feels different. I felt it a bit when we did the prayer
just now. You know, and when you said ameen, I felt that, you know. So I think that would
be more my answer to that.
Chad Berryman 55:44
Thank you. That's awesome. You know, I am looking at the clock, and I know Bob has to get
going. But, I just, you know, wanted to give you a chance if there's anything in general that
you want to mention before we close. You know, I thank you again for sitting down with
me. Because I feel that you've, maybe even without knowing it, demonstrated very well
how just the story of one individual or of one, you know, one space is really many stories.
And so, if you have anything you want to--
Karima Vargas Bushnell 56:27
I do have one thing, because we talked a lot about the past and maybe a little bit about the
present, so looking at the present and the future. And I did feel as though last year we were
kind of in a, you know, like a butterfly, you've got to--I don't know, you can't say
"metamorphose". So what is the verb of that? I don't know, "morph"? They're saying morph
now, which is cute. But, you know, you either have to die or you have to change. Something
very special is happening with us.
I am getting more and more drawn to the Nur Ashki Jerrahi dhikrullah and the Qur'an. I'm
in love with the Qur'an. When I was doing the Dances, I had a dream one time. It was a little
procession, a bunch of us going up some wooden stairs, it might have been the church we
had the Dances in. And I think there were maybe seven of us there like that. That would be
very symbolic if it was seven, and I think maybe it was. We each had a holy book, and I had
the Qur'an. But we went up the stairs. And then there was a place where you couldn't get
through anymore, it narrowed and then you couldn't go any further. So that was kind of
interesting. But I had this Quran, it was like that was my job. It wasn't any better than any
of the other holy books. But that was the one that I was carrying, you know, so I've really
fallen in love with the Qur'an.
So I'm really loving our zikr since we started having it on Zoom. When this horrible,
horrible weather was going on, you know, nobody really was coming here. In fact, we
started having it at our house so I wouldn't even have to go out at one point. And a couple
times a couple people came, but we'd have one or two people in the room. And then we'd
have five or six people coming over the internet. And of these people, one of them is a
Bosnian Muslim woman from Sarajevo. And one of them is the woman that we just prayed
for who is from Cairo and is an international student in Boulder.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 57:01
And so it's such a blessing and the thing that to me connects with the Dergah al-Farah-which was the Masjid al-Farah back in Shaykh Nur's day--but the Dergah al-Farah, is that
it's a mixture of Americans and Westerners who've been drawn to Sufism and born
Muslims who either grew up Sufi--both of them had Sufi background, but they weren't
necessarily raised with it, or at least the woman from Bosnia wasn't because you didn't
hear too much [about Sufism in that time and place]. I mean, you've got some of it.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 58:09
But you know, so they bring that. It's like the people bring different gifts, and it's the crosspollination that is wonderful. I almost said cross-pollinization, which would be very funny.
So that's one thing. That's what's going on with me.
Now, my husband--it's good I said all this earlier about the Hinduism and bhajan and kirtan
and all of that--because kirtan, the singing of these Hindu chants, which I see it as, and
Muslim friends I know that honor Hinduism, we see this as aspects of God. Well, they're
either prophets--Hazrat Inayat Khan looked at these, Krishna, Rama and such, as prophets,
because the Qur'an says prophets have been sent to every nation, you know, so they see it
that way. Or you can look at them as aspects of God. But anyway, this kirtan, this chanting
of these holy songs from Hinduism, has gotten quite big. Same way nobody had ever heard
of yoga and all of a sudden everybody's doing yoga. Well, it's not to that level, but quite big
in the Twin Cities, quite a thing. And yet still, many people haven't heard of zikr, of
dhikrullah.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 59:34
So, the retreat I'm going to this weekend, and I will finish up--I too am aware of Bob. Bob is
the cat, we didn't say this on the air before: he's a cat, he's got to get to the vet. But the
people here, many people here in sort of the spiritual, the generalized spiritual community,
are much more familiar with kirtan than they are with zikr. So the weekend I'm going to
this weekend is a Sufi/ Yogi weekend, kirtan and dhikrullah and practices from both
traditions up near Duluth. Pretty exciting. Well, my husband has gotten really into this and
he's a musician, and he is a fine singer, songwriter, guitar player. He's taking it really to a
level of expertise that's impressive. I play in an Irish band, by the way, and if I want to stop
people, I say, "I'm Muslim, and I play Irish music. I play Irish fiddle." And then that breaks
all their stereotypes.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:00:34
But anyway, he is starting a thing like that down here--and this is going to be happening
inshallah pretty soon in the future--have these kirtan/zikr meetings. That's a real blessing.
So these are the new things that are going on for us. I'm going deeper into the Islamic
Sufism and he is spreading wider into the interfaith mysticism and of course, we're both
very down with both, too. So there. Thank you so much for asking me that. That's
everything I have to say, I think.
Chad Berryman 1:01:04
Well, thank you so much again, I really do appreciate it.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:01:06
Very welcome.
Show less
Fidelina Xinico: Today's April 5TH of 2019 at Augsburg University today we're interviewing
Hodo Dahir: Hodo Dahir.
Fidelina Xinico: The first question that I, like I was thinking about is how did you decided to what
university you wanted to go to?
Hodo Dahir: When I first was deciding on la... Show more
Fidelina Xinico: Today's April 5TH of 2019 at Augsburg University today we're interviewing
Hodo Dahir: Hodo Dahir.
Fidelina Xinico: The first question that I, like I was thinking about is how did you decided to what
university you wanted to go to?
Hodo Dahir: When I first was deciding on land to university, I thought about the cost, place, as well as
the communities that I'll be part of it. So before coming to Augsburg, actually went to Community
College for a couple of years, like, almost a year and a half or two years, where I finished my community
for associate degree there, and then I transferred to Augsburg in 2016. And the only reason why I was
able to come to Augsburg, it was because of the scholarship offering. I don't even know before that prior
to where Augsburg was, where was where it was located. I mean, I've seen the A when I was passing on
the highway, but I didn't really think much about it.
Fidelina Xinico: Oh, what is your major?
Hodo Dahir: My major is biology,
Fidelina Xinico: biology
Hodo Dahir: and a minor in religion.
Fidelina Xinico: So you mentioned that you had a scholarship through Augsburg like, do you want to talk
a little bit more about it?
Hodo Dahir: Yeah. So the scholarship is very competitive, initially submitted my application on early
November, and I didn't get it, like fully accepted until late February. So that whole time there is a
curriculum of where you've been assessed about how their Phases that you have to go through phase
one, phase two. And then phase three is the last one, where you have a 30-minute interview with
someone that you share about your life. But as well, as you come on campus, you participate some
group dynamic work, and they see you how you are as a leader, because this scholarship is all about
leader and helping the students coming from misrepresented as well as financially challenging families.
And that's what I did, I applied for it and I was lucky enough to get as cadre two of six here at Augsburg
but I'm the first undergraduate in my Cadre graduate and with cadre one instead of graduate in cadre
two so it's a little exciting. I'm and it's also a little bit sad because they are my family now, you know?
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah. So yeah. Congratulations! Could you share a little bit more about your experience
here at Augsburg like, how do you feel when you are around in the community?
Hodo Dahir: Augsburg has definitely been one of my favorite places to actually learn, grow as a person.
Because I'm challenged both as a student and as well as person, one of my rama of experience for sure
in Augsburg in one word that I would describe as belonging, or finding that belonging from the moment
that I walked in at Augsburg for I was Welcome with a smile that was led with, with compassionate and
caring by Pastor SonJa. And just even the people that are around me, every single day were challenging
me as a person and anticipating them for me to do great things. And I was expecting the same thing
from them. And that would just felt like we were in a community that was helping each other, rather
than a community that's putting down each other.
And as I was got involved in different communities here, and I get to participate, let's say, different
organization level, different positions on campus. And as I get to know people on a personal level, I
realized we're not that all much different. What we are is what we are afraid is the change that's
happening. And we're fearful of what we do not know. And before people know me, they think they
only know me of because of my smile is on my funny jokes that I make sometimes. All that all that
funny.
But they once people get to know me on a personal level, they say while you're doing one person who
cares and understands. And I think having an open heart and open mind is something that I learned
from my faith. You know, it's like, you got to be very open to others, as well as have a core commitment
that that drives your life.
Fidelina Xinico: Wow. Yeah, definitely. I am impressed of all your responses.
So you actually touched a little bit about like the next question, can you share How your faith or
theology have shaped who you are?
Hodo Dahir: Yeah. And adding interested a little bit of to add on that I think about my faith as a young
Muslim woman, my faith and never always had to question it.
I mean, there's sometimes people questioned my faith, but never do I ever have to say, this is wrong,
because of my faith. I mean, because of my faith is in jeopardy and that I need to save myself. I learned
at a young age, how to go to school, start picking up the books, start learning the Qur’an, and the, the
prophet [Arabic], and his stories and all of that.
So that gave me an idea of a young age. And as I grew up, and as I picked up their practices, and I try to
be as best Muslim person I could be, I start picking up some other good habits and smiling is one of the
prophets favorite thing to do is, there's a saying that the Prophet says peace be upon him smile, smile is
even a charity. So when you smile, you're able to help others lift up their life. And I do that every day.
And it's an act of kindness, but it's also an act of charity. And that's how shape me of who I am. And
every day when I'm walking out there, I'm not only representing my family and my community, but by
faith.
Imagine you are in the marketplace, and you are the most. looked at piece of like, I understand, I see
you're a diamond and you're shining. So the way the diamonds presented is how people perceive it. So
the way that I present myself is the way they're going to get out of my religion. So I say my actions and
my, my practices is in how I try to embody it is by showing them by example, rather than letting them
have this misrepresentation that they put us out there on social media, which is not true 95% of it.
Fidelina Xinico: So you were mentioning about showing in representing who you are and also I kind of
tied it to different organizations. Yeah. Could you talk little bit more about it?
Hodo Dahir: Definitely. I think it's important to show up. I think the most important thing about
anything in life that I learned so far here is you need to show up. And well how you show up is
important. So me showing up was being an active member, different organizations, international
student orgs you're part of it almost part of it as well try to be there as much as they can ASA at the
Asian Student Association. The Augsburg Lanit American Group the pan Africanist is the Muslim Student
Association, and some other like, for the STEM majors that I'm part of it. And some of the math groups. I
mean, like, there's too many groups around campus that you will all be part of it. But if they don't see
anybody who looks like me, and if I don't show myself and then make sure that others can show up to
and be part of their lives as much as they can, because the way you interact with them is the way they
get out of it. Well, you your first impression is sort of how you interact with them.
And if I'm not involved, and I'm not getting to know other people as well, I'm closing my mind, my mind
from getting to know someone else. Amazing, you know?
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's amazing. So, for you what it means to be Muslim in even more specifically
here in Minneapolis, Minnesota,
Hodo Dahir: Minneapolis, a unique place to be a Muslim, especially for the past few years, we've had a
lot of transformation, transformation from being having that having a voice in in a political aspect to
having a voice now as a congress Ilhan Omar representing our community. And Nelson Keith Ellison
being the attorney general. So having big key figures in the community that are part of it, the change
makers in the community was a big thing for me.
But what it means to be a Muslim, it just being the best person I am, and showing up as best as they can.
And try to my best to at least people have come across who are not convinced themselves are not good
people, to at least show them the genuinely that's within my heart and be authentic with them. Because
being fake and being appealing to them. And just having this reshape thing, it does not work on people.
And I think what people do not know about the Muslim community here in Minneapolis, is we are tight
group, will come from a collective society, meaning that we'd like to stay together we'd like to work
together, we is all about togetherness. Whereas America is more most of the American communities is
more about individualism is I get to do this on my own, I get to accomplish all of this my own. So having
that community help each other and uplift each other. Sometimes community also can hurt each other.
But it is how we overcome those and how we respond to those hurt, through love and through
community activism or I just really helping being solidarity with one another, for other communities are
also hurting is how I see our Muslim community thriving here at Minneapolis Minnesota.
Fidelina Xinico: Well, I don't know if there is something else that you want to mention, because like the
next question is like, could you give an example of how you put your faith into actions, but I feel like you
already have given some examples of who you are as a person.
So the next one is, what is the most memorable act that Augsburg has done in order to support Muslim
students.
Hodo Dahir: So last year, on April Fool's Day was this post and statement that was going on our around
social media that was calling an act of violence against Muslim community.
So it was like April, Muslim Fools Day, sort of like you, if you pick up someone else's hijab, you get
certain points. If you shove someone in front of the train, you get the most pointless if you kill a Muslim
person, you will get certain points for fun.
And so what I did was I wrote a letter and like that sort of a bleed to the larger community, I'm letting
them aware of what was happening. I shared with everyone and what the How to algebra community,
or Augsburg, what they've done in support of the Muslim students is they were able to host a moment
for the Muslims at the campus ministry at during the chapel, the president send a letter to the
professors, faculty and staff and making them aware that today is it's a fearful day for to be a Muslim,
and I feel like everyday, it is a fearful day to be a Muslim. Because the way how social media has
portrayed us and how hatred has been perpetuated all around the world.
But seeing that solidarity amongst my friends, my faculty, my professors, and just even in the larger
administration was just like, wow, they actually care about us, you know, and they are sending men only
these letters, but like, what it was just within a minutes, like, I send a letter, was it a night of Monday,
and by Tuesday morning, I'm getting response from people like thank you all for this and that the
President responding. He personally reached out to me and that was touching, but I think we all do an
active as much as we can to support one another. So appreciate it.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's Thank you for sharing that example with us,
Hodo Dahir: There’s many other women we would love to hear. I could tell you
Fidelina Xinico: That sounds really scary to like, you know, people trying to harm other people.
Hodo Dahir: Yeah.
Fidelina Xinico: So what would you like to add or see a change in Augsburg?
Hodo Dahir: So this year as I was an active I was an interfaith scholar. And as an interfaith scholar, I
realized the importance of dialogue and how we need to continue this conversation. And not only as a
scholarly, our responsibility, our responsibility is that we need to create more spaces of intentional
interfaith.
And I mean that with intention of having a space dedicated to the interfaith just interfaith work,
whatever that could be having a interfaith Friday nights interfaith food night or an faith led workshops
every week, and some, someone who's leading, but it's not only for the Abrahamic religions that are
going to be represented, I will, I wish to hope to see that at least we all learn from one another's faith,
spirituality and philosophical practices that we all have differently. So that's one thing I hope to see at
Augsburg change, and I think is something doable. I wish I had a little longer time maybe out of five, we
had the opportunity to accomplish that. But that's another goal of mine is like, this semester, I was able
to hit the ground and get it, was shortened time and graduated. It's really hard to do it. All of it.
Everything.
Fidelina Xinico: Yes, for sure. But at the same time, you just like, as you said, everything is like works as
a community. So yeah, even though I feel like you feel like you did not accomplish it. Other person can
totally do it and You have been doing like amazing things, too. So you can like, keep doing a through
your life. Yeah, I wish you luck
Hodo Dahir: Thank you so much.
Fidelina Xinico: So even in this semester, we have been learning about Malcolm X. I don't know if you
have heard. Does it sound familiar?
Hodo Dahir: Elijah Muhammad. Yeah,
Fidelina Xinico: yeah. So it was represented as important figure during the Civil Rights Movement. And it
was because he was an American Muslim minister in human rights and activists. So yeah, could you like,
talk a little bit what you know about him?
Hodo Dahir: Malcolm X is a very important figure in the Muslim community, especially the African
Muslim community, who are here.
I think is we sometimes underestimate the importance of his work, because what we are mostly tend to
look at is Martin Luther, Dr. Martin Luther work, which is through nonviolence. That's, that's amazing.
That's another important work. But when we're talking about the civil rights figures, I think both of them
have done a tremendous work to, to create this, not only this for other Africans to kind of really
recognize your rights and all of it personally.
So I was this spring break, I was in Alabama. Alabama is very down way in the south and very
conservative state, very practiced faith background. So a lot of baptism church and baptism. This is one
of the very waiver conservative churches that I've heard of it at this far. And walking around there and
hearing the stories visiting the Civil Rights Museum. All I saw in that civil rights, museum was. everything
about Martin Luther, barely anything about representation of Malcolm X, I sort of felt like, at the end of
the day, our faith is what if you're not very much sort of associated with Christianity, you're sort of left
out.
so Malcolm X is recognized a lot in the Muslim community in the African American communities. But
he's sometimes forgotten his kind of left in the shadow behind. And this is one of my favorite quote that
he said that I, I, once I was reading his biography and things that he was saying, he said, the future
belongs to those who prepare it today, And I try to reference that to every time I'm like thinking about
my education. And I'm like, What am I going to do today? Ho Hodo, Remember what Malcom X said the
future belongs to those who prepare it today. I'm going to prepare it today.
So there is to Malcolm X that you'll see, you'll see. Pre-Islam, Malcolm X and post-Islam, Malcolm X, two
completely different man. One is more violent, like let's, you know, let's get our rights through our fist
and our, our hard work and all of that. And post slum is more like, let's use our reasoning this be less
eradicate all racism, by working together and bringing light to the people's heart. Rather than and I think
that's why he got killed it was because he was no longer advocating for violence.
Fidelina Xinico: Yes. Okay. Thank you.
I think we are almost done.
So is there anything that you want to add or feel, but you did not, the chance to share with us
Hodo Dahir: I think the only thing I what to add is keep going, keep on going everywhere you are life,
you know, I just think it's a matter of working hard. But as a person of faith, I would say have your faith
aware your faith in your heart. practice every single day. And remember, that no matter wherever you
are, you're protected by God. And do not be fearful of the unknown. Be anticipating of the unknown.
So
I don't know if I can say anymore.
Fidelina Xinico: Thank you so much.
Hodo Dahir: No problem. Thank you. I'm really glad someone is documenting this it's important.
Fidelina Xinico: So what city were you born in? Could you describe your childhood home and where it
was?
Hodo Dahir: That is a good question. So I was born in [Speaking in Arabic] Ethiopia, in East Africa near
closer to Somalia that actually Kenya. My childhood home our same since I grew up in a refugee camp
environment. More like less of, like, fancy home more like a second home, you know. And it was passed
down from my grandparents, to my parents.
So it was like, Wow, there is memories here down there. Now, you know, I never thought about it
before. And it was in the middle of the city. So you could see people going in and out of the city when
they coming back from bigger city as compared to smaller cities. So that's what that's where I was born
my childhood. But we had everything like outside, there's stuff to play, and it was closer to school. Yeah,
Fidelina Xinico: How close it was from your school?How long did it take you to get there?
Hodo Dahir: five to eight minute walk from my school. Yeah,
Fidelina Xinico: that doesn't sound far
Hodo Dahir: Yeah, it wasn't that far.
Fidelina Xinico:So what did you enjoy doing as a child?
Hodo Dahir: I did you enjoy as a child playing sports. That was little bit difficult for my family, because I
was a girl that's supposed to be playing sports, because all the sports that I want to play the boys were
playing and my parents, like, Don't play with the boys. And then I'm like, okay, but I want to play soccer.
No, girls don't play soccer.
And I think is more like, the more they said no. And the more I want to do it.
Fidelina Xinico: you mentioned like about Sports where you more into to soccer than any other sport?
Hodo Dahir: Yeah, soccer was just so fun, because everyone is watching and playing it, I don't like to do
it too. I don't want to be left out. And I was good at it. So I was like, I want to play as much as I can. So I
would tell my cousins and my brothers to Let's Play out so in the backyard of our house, and would
kicked balls. You know, I would have beat all the boys in the group and they'll be like next time we are
not going to play with you Hodo.
Fidelina Xinico: So then the next question, did you attend them religious services? And what were your
earliest memories?
Hodo Dahir: Yeah, I used to attend regularly a religious service. So that could vary from attending Friday
prayers to our prayers to attending [Speaking Arabic] , or a small circle of learning about the Quran as
well as the life of the Prophet.
Like earliest memories, I would say... first year, kindergarten, like four or five years old, and I started
going because my dad used to read the Quran at our house all the time. And then there's some people
that would come with some lights, and they would just read Quran together. And I'm like, that sounds
cool, I want to do it, then I'm like, actually, the best place to do that is to go to the masjid or the
mosque. And you could just spend your time there, I know, bother you. So the school that will go for my
religious classes, was closer to the masjid that was a house, which is like 10 minutes away from me. So I
would walk there in the morning or earlier and spend some time in the masjid, just reading the Quran.
And that's how I learned most of the time south by Arabic. Because I spend more time reading the
Quran. And understand better, I don't want to someone else's interpretation to cloud my own belief. So
I wanted to have better understanding and clear connection was my faith. So I started to learn the
Arabic. So I can understand very, but so I would attend Juma prayers, and I would have to know
[speaking arabic] classes and then I would attend my classes time. But also some smaller like religious
services. Like, Hi, I'm of course, old days, I will do that.And I was almost like, self funded.
Fidelina Xinico: And when you were to those different places where you going by yourself, or it was like
a family.
Hodo Dahir: So the part of the community that I was a part of it was most predominantly Somalis and
Muslims. So it was it felt like everybody was doing it. Yeah. So it's like having mass every Sunday for
some of our Catholic friends, everybody has delivered. So it was like that for us to as well.
It was more of a regular services that was happening in the community, and that you couldn't miss out. I
mean, there's some troubled kids who are not come on to some other stuff. But that was something
that I was working on side. But I don't know, like, even my even my friends were like, oh, why do you
have to go to the services, even if you don't have to go over like, but I want to learn more. And I think I
understand that at the time. I didn't know why I want to learn more. But I just knew I wanted to learn
more. Yeah.
Fidelina Xinico: So could you describe a little bit more in your parents in what they were liking? What
did they do?
Hodo Dahir: Yeah, sure, my parents want to begin, to be honest, why? My understanding and my
parents have changed over the years. It's it's transformational thing that I'm trying to understand.
Because I don't know, I'm still trying to understand how my parents work together, you know.
So both my mom and my dad get married at a young age, they had met a young age as well. And there's
seven kids of us total. So I'm the oldest one. And I feel like they had to grow up so fast sorely that they
had to miss out all of their youth know, their, their teen years that they didn't have to build, they didn't
have enough time to really have fun and all that. And then as the years went by, I felt like I was molded
to be like them, you know, be a lot more responsible at a young age. Come to understand, like the folly
and part of what I didn't realize that until now.
Well, I remember that I don't have kids at a younger age, but I'm like, I've definitely see the
responsibility that I carry is similar to the ones they died, you know. And so my mom was the one word
was the breadwinner of our house. My mom worked more than my dad while we were in Ethiopia. And
that's really surprising to me, because usually is the opposite. The mountains work in our communities,
as well as the water is just sort of like the race kid. That's why. So my mom is a businesswoman. She
knows what she's doing. She's always doing what she's doing. And that's super cool. I learned I you
know, but then I don't know, like, since I haven't seen my dad, almost 10 years. I know. I feel like our
connection has sort of lost, but delirious is that bloggers, Terry, from our faith, to have a connection
with our parents, even though they're far away to close, it doesn't matter. Even did it back to your good
to you. They still be parents. I think it's a, it's an important thing to realize how much your parents have
sacrificed for you and what they've done for you. And not take it for granted. But also to learn their
mistakes. And to grow up from it, instead of just being like, okay, bye. So yeah, I don't know.
Fidelina Xinico: And so do you think that your family play a role when you join a religion?
Hodo Dahir: So, I grew up in my religion, but definitely having some of my parents or some life
communities, and family member, being either religious or moral and religious was sort of like,
important to them. But for me is always about building that connection with my Lorde, you know. And
as I grew up, but as I learned, more or less, I was just like, this makes sense, you know? And God
chooses, what family you born with, you don't choose who is your families. Same thing you choose your
religion, your body, is how you accepted matter, the bad, the good. that determines how well you can
adapt. Yeah.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's very Good. I think I can I can see that.
Hodo Dahir: Yes.
Fidelina Xinico What is your favorite memory of your mother?
Hodo Dahir:My mom, I would say, for the past nine year and a half, I've seen her work every single day,
my family to provide us enough food. The clothes that we wear sometimes, and all of those, you know.
So my favorite memory of her is like when she comes home. And I've done something good, like clean
the house and cook food or take care of the kids in the beginning. Because I'm on campus right now. But
when I'm home, I will do some of those stuff. And when she says this, and they'll be like, Hodo, wow, so
my daughter is back. That's my kind of favorite memory.
Fidelina Xinico: So did you mentioned that you have like seven siblings. How that has been for you?
Hodo Dahir: It's been a crazy roller coaster. So the seminars have like, strong headed, of course, they're
like, wait, I want to do this, I want to work on this, I want to work less, I wouldn't have this. And living
together has been like, it's just too much. Like, especially being the oldest of all, like, you have to really
create path for them to work with. But at the same time, most importantly, learn how to lead them. And
it's important to sometimes be vulnerable. But other times you're not always trying to make mistakes in
front of them. And so have three brothers and four sisters. I mean, two brothers and three sisters, and
so on for sister. And it's just like, right now what I see is that we're all growing up, and they're growing
up as well.
And they're starting to realize, wow, the work that Hodo has left like created for us. And they're like,
Thank you Hodo, Ho your welcome thanks for appreciating my work and they're starting to dream like
they help it out of the house and all that I really have good relationship my younger sister because she
she doesn't tell me she looks up to me. But she does, I can tell there's a lot of things she's been doing is
like literally almost the same thing that we've done. And she's like, I don't want to be like if doctor or
anything like that. But that's totally fine. You don't have to. But then she's involved at all the groups that
are did, how it got into work, and all of that. I'm like, Yes, go for it. I'm not going to tell you don't do it as
well as a good degree what you can do it to do it. So, and my other siblings, we the boys that I usually
connect through sports will play video games or basketball together. They are taller than me sometimes
there are two of them. So and when my two cousins join us and I are playing a moment like the one be
overplayed. But I still like try to play as much as I can when I'm playing soccer at least decent enough.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah.So when you do all this fun stuff, it is like at home when, when everybody is or to
get together on a special days.
Hodo Dahir: So rooms full time is rolling a little bit difficult to like, when you're at home, you do
homework, you work, or he busy with something does. But once in a while, like some long weekends
that all of the families are home, we're just like, Oh yeah, you guys wouldn't do this, let's do this. A lot of
times, you'll fly around events like, oh, let's go watch the Timberwolves game like together. And then
we'll plan that ahead of time if we wanted to call it. And then we'll do it another time. Just like, as time
goes, we just do it what we can. And I think those those are the fun stuff, it's tough, because you don't
you don't plan for having fun, the fun comes when you don't expect it. And I think is needed, because
especially if you come in from school, like you work so hard for it. And then they work in our school, and
everybody just so busy, they need a break from something, you know, and that's a good thing for all of
us.
Fidelina Xinico: If there were something in your past, you were able to go back and do differently, what
would that be?
Hodo Dahir: A good question.What I would do differently, if I were to go back to the past, is finished on
time the Quran, I feel like I miss out a lot. religious aspect, because I haven't finished the Quran and it
just it really bothers me a lot not knowing everything. And the reason why I was not able to finish it on
time, is because I've got a responsibility increased in the household. And school demanded more, more
of my time, I just couldn't handle all of like everything that was happening at one time. So I sort of put it
on pause, but I'm still learning slowly like. it is a chapter maybe a month or a years and it takes me to
learn it. And instead of me learning it monthly, I would have done it before I would learn all these 10
chapters, or our memorize the whole Jesus, which would be like, one or two, at least every month, I will
memorize that site back to my professor, my teachers. Okay, yeah, let's continue on to the next one.
And that's how we accumulate and increase memorization. And I just haven't had that because you
need to take time, but also. I just don't want to memorize and just say words and without feeling, you
know. So my Arabic is not as strong as you used to be before due to learning different languages, of
course. And so I also wish that I would have really stick to it and spoke more often what Arabic.
Fidelina Xinico Hmm.
Hodo Dahir: So I could have at least a solid foundation of what to expect when I am reading the Quran.
Fidelina Xinico: So by now that you already finished the quarter or are you still working on it ,
Hodo Dahir: I've done I've memorized the least. I want to say almost a 10. Just 10 chapter. And there's
nobody there. There.
Fidelina Xinico: But you're working on it. That's something good. And do you think that there are people
that can help you to do that here?
Hodo Dahir: Yes, I still go sometimes [Speaking Arabic]. We can but depends on like, whether it's like
busy weekend or small, we can have a teacher who are just like with that, okay, this is how much I can
hurt or work this weekend. Just give me that amount of work out get back to you. So he would give me
two pages or page or five pages of the Quran, learn that recite back to you. So depending on how much
work that I have to do, I feel like I can do it. That's how much I'll accept it.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's good. Because you are working in your own time. And it is not like you're
pushing back. It is.
Hodo Dahir: Yeah,
Fidelina Xinico: you are working on it as you can
In your own opinion, what benefits does religion have for you?
Hodo Dahir: So that's a good question. I think there's a lot of benefits that religions have, especially my
own religion. we are talking about Islam here, I think the benefits that it brings is, for me, I learned a lot
self discipline, self discipline, especially during Ramadan, where we have to abstain from drinking water
and eating anything food for sunset, I meant from sunrise to sunset. And that takes you a lot of a lot of
effort and a lot of mental training and a lot of self discipline and self control to do it. But also has to be
moved around conviction to believe in what you're doing is actually a great thing. And health speaking
those benefits include, better , better body and as the body adapts to the changes, it takes well, and you
have a good health overall.
And image sometimes people don't realize this, but while you're fasting, you're cleansing your body.
But then also your soul. Because when you're fasting, not only are you eating for food, and drink, but
you're also stealing from all the bad things in the world. Like for instance, let's say you you use the curse
will often when you're fasting, it's something tells you, you can't do that. Don't be that mean person,
like let's say you you just you just love both others. But then if you can't do that when he fasting.
Also, the for better itself, pigs, pigs are having alcohol. Science also has proven that both welcome at
very bad for your health, especially peaks are very, they have a lot of diseases that can take back to how
they care about us they know this is there is a reason why God has net to you. And that's not to be the
other people who are eating it are like bad people, it's just that they will take made a different choice
than ours now. That's totally fine, you know, people who are called to die with different choices. And it
gives them different places, as well as alcohol. Alcohol is one of the costly death in many countries
saying that it could be one of those people they made they make mistakes, because oh, I was drunk.
That doesn't give, it's not an excuse that you were drunk, you chose to get drunk. And that became the
excuse. So at the end of the day, it's about choices. And if I chose not to drink, because God told me not
to drink. And I still make same mistakes as they've done it, it just doesn't make a difference. But if I
choose not to drink it, take care of my body. Because my body is a gift from my God.
And it's a gift, give someone gives you a valuable gift, you don't just throw it away and discard it and like
just use it badly you take care of it. If you believe in that God and you care about it, you will take care of
it as best as you can. Because one day we would all need to leave this body, this body would be like it
would definitely decay at all of those. But then when we really selected back in the day of judgment, you
know, bottom will speak against you. It would say Hodo use these hands for healthy stuff. Hodo use
these hands for helping others. Hodo use these is for learning the most you could or at least looking
something that you shouldn't be looking at. All of those stuff would come against me of the neighbor
judgment because my body is a gift, my lord. Therefore, if I the way I take care of it will reflect on me. So
I think those are good benefits of religions have at all. We have the sick cat or charity, it's out looking for
charity, as a Muslim that you give some percent of your wealth to the poor. And that's somewhere keep
the communities from that happen to severe poverty but as well as you don't have to heavily power for
people. But still you do have all those and they don't exist, but at least as much as he can you help it.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah.
Fidelina Xinico: So what misconceptions are there about Muslims that you want to change?
Hodo Dahir: There is a lot.
Fidelina Xinico: Like, probably just the three main ones.
Hodo Dahir: So this is currently in a job. We live in 21st Century Social Media it is an important one. It's
always it's always disheartening to see a media platform that's misleading people thinking that. Muslim
women especially, who worry jab are oppressed. That's not true. Before a press move at warning,
opposed it long time ago, was it? No, we don't want to wear this. Why was the wearing 140 plus years
later on? When were are educated, if it was oppressive, and we are not fool. But yet people in western
countries have the idea that because we cover ourselves we are Oppressed, when we are really, My
faith liberates me from all the subjective sexual attachment that my body would bring from guys in
members that I don't have it sometimes some people will look at me, but it's not my fault, because I
look at what am I wearing, or because of the way I want it is because they chose to look at me the same
way that a girl also walking down the street, the same way they would look at her, they chose to look at
her. I'm not attracting anyone is that people have choices to either look or not look, we're told more
often lower gates. Specially, the opposite gender when they are on each other. It's because of
temptation out there. So it's so risky. So by lowering your gates, you raise your light, shine, at least
minimize the amount of temptation out there. But really thinking well, and there's another hypocrite to
think about, trying to liberate us, when they actually are oppressing us. There's some countries like
France, let's say for instance, for civil to take off the hijab, and the name of our liberating you, but it's
not actually oppressing you, I'm giving you the choice of what she should, she should not do. So I really
kind of wish people would understand the meaning behind the hijab. That hijab literally just means like,
cover, and be modest. And sometimes those can be defined definitely for person to person. But at the
end, the day is like we're covering our chest, our face, our hair, those are made. from cold stone with
our weather is hot or cold in the winter, summer, it doesn't matter, we're still covered. And we don't do
it because of our husbands or what fathers or brothers we do because of the sake of our Lord. Like my
parents were not forced me if I would have understood the importance of a hijab, like old man
accepted, because it would have not made sense to me. When I was at a young age,I started understand
it that's like, it's about it's like an umbrella that keeps you protected from the rain, from the sun and all
those. For me it's like a reminder, constant reminder for me like is what I would places are you
representing normal faith? Be Will you be protected by God. So that's, that's how I see it out.
There also, the idea that all Muslims are terrorists, and all Muslims are terrorists, there will be at least
1.3 or 4 billion the last word terrorist. So generalize the US on actions that have individuals who are bad
apples of our faith, and attaching dots, I think it's a very bad idea. Every every community, every
religion, and every society has always had someone who are bad, you know, like, so what was that
feeling? You know, these people are not representing their faith, they're representing on their own.
There are not after my faith, if they were endanger the best interest of my faith, they will not matter
what the things they do. The people that get the most hurt, are not Muslims, are the Muslims
community, they get killed the most. They get backlash the most. So when we It doesn't make sense to
take that actually turn big. There's, it's helping you fail. Actually, if you kill yourself, if you kill yourself,
God does not forgive you. Because you gave you that forgiveness by as a gift and you're wasting it away.
So the Day of Judgment you will be asked and you will be heavily judged against you. And Quran says if
you save what he will be with like, as if you have saved all humanity. If you kill one human being is like
you have kill all humanity. So how does that make sense to take that killing people? This is easy as just
like that. So those are my fields confession. But I will. Yeah, those are the main questions that I wanted
to ask you.
Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing more about yourself. with.
Hodo Dahir: I'm glad so
Show less
Nasrin 0:03
For me, I think it's okay. So I came here around '09. Before then obviously I was young, living in a
different country, I think. So I was born in Ethiopia, right. So that's where I was. That's where I was
raised for like, until I was like, eight or nine. During the time, there w... Show more
Nasrin 0:03
For me, I think it's okay. So I came here around '09. Before then obviously I was young, living in a
different country, I think. So I was born in Ethiopia, right. So that's where I was. That's where I was
raised for like, until I was like, eight or nine. During the time, there was a lot of like Muslims there. I
think the second population was Muslims. I t hink I just saw Islam as a culture. And obviously, my mom
would teach me like, what not to do and what to do, I never really ,because I was young, I never really
questioned my religion, then it was just like, okay, it's part of like, this is what you are. And then when I
came here, is when, I think also like growing up, like when you reach a certain age, you kind of have to,
like, dress differently, just like puberty, you have a woman has to dress different. And this and that, that
also, like that kind of played a part where when I was here, I kind of would start like, I didn't want to
wear hijab, you know, there would be a period where like, it was such a culture to me that I would just
put like, I would have my scarf, because my mom didn't care either. So I just have my scarf on my neck
and just keep it there just in case if I see my relatives you know, because my relatives might say
something and Oh, yeah, so when my relatives were there I was just like, you know, because you never
know there might be there at home or they'll see you in the street or whatever, you know, so just that
when I actually started to like, care about just the dressing even though I still wasn't like practicing, like I
knew how to pray I knew my like, like the Islamic part. But practicing wise, I didn't start, like I just the
physical maybe like so I started like in seventh grade. That's when I started dressing. And that was the
main reason was also like my sisters did it around that age. So I did around that age. And I didn't also I
just like, I don't know, I just wanted to look like my sisters, I guess. And then I started to question myself.
And I think part of the privilege in America is because there are like so many different cultures and
religions, people question. That gives you an excuse to question your own religion and research it
because if you're doing something, and people ask you and you don't know what you're doing, it's just
something stupid, you know what I mean? And hijab when I started wearing it. A lot of people especially
older professors, friends and this and that, so I had the responsibility to research and learn more. If I
wasn't here and let's say I lived in an all muslim country, I don't think I would ever really research or
think about it. It was just be like, you know, yeah, so um, yeah, that kind of hit. And then I was just like, I
got more into it, the more I researched because I just researched hijab. Other things kind of popped off.
So like, I would get more information about Islam and this and that, where it was before where it was
more like now it's like, wow, that's my religion. Like, the purpose is there. Even with high school Even
then, even though I was getting more information? I wasn't really practicing.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 3:20
And you looked like you were practicing
Nasrin 3:21
Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I think a lot of Muslims kind of do that. And there's also a lot of Muslims that
that actually do practice because we have the privilege and the access to learn Islam, where other
people can'yt you know what I mean? So, so yeah, so I think in muslim America probably is just like, like,
I had the choice to do a lot of things like I said, like, let's say I have, I had a period where I didn't really
care. I still had turban work hijabi or whatever. But like, I didn't really practice and whatever. I live in my
mom who then all that, but it wasn't like a forest because there's no, no like, like, cultural.So it's kind of
like your own journey, which is kind of good in some way. Because it kind of helps you find your own
self. And like, instead of like, giving, like, Oh,this is what I have to do, or this and that, you know what I
mean, so I don't know, I feel like being Muslim in America is a great privilege because I get to find my
own religion and fall in love with it. Where other people don't play the clip their cultural, you know,
Islamic culture, like a lot of people put Islam and culture together and then put their opinions on me.
And I don't get that and I'm so privileged that I can actually learn Islam for its true purpose like Islam as
Islam, you know what I mean? And it's not so like, it's just, I fell in love with it, the more I learn, and the
more I just want to be like, yeah, I want to get to this point in that sort of like, Oh, no, this is not my
thing was just like, I don't know. Like, I have.
Dienabou 5:14
I agree. 100%. Just because, okay, my upbringing and like, a lot of West Africans even in America, West
African Muslims? In America, it's very, very different to East African. Like, like,experienced as a Muslim
in America, and even back home. Because East Africa, a lot of them, even though they mix like Islam and
culture, they still care about the hijab, they still care about prayer and all of that they still care. And like
compared to West Africa, a lot of West African Muslim countries, like, they don't pray, they're just
Muslim by name, I guess. So like, so like, my parents, when they grew up, they didn't grow things like my
grandpa, like, he was like an Imam and everything. He was like, whatever. But then, like, you're young,
you just like,are like you do what you want to do you know what I mean and like, they would go out,
they would do stuff, like they wouldn't really practice I guess you can say and like maybe sometimes
they would pray. Sometimes they would fast when Ramadan, when Ramadan came. And then they
would like, you know, have eat or whatever. But then it was more, it was more like culture, like culture
overpowered their religion more. So like, I was born here. So then like growing up my parents, like we
didn't really like they wouldn't pray when they came here. Like my mom didn't start wearing Hijab until
like,almost 10 years ago, and she's been here 23 years, whatever. So almost 10 years ago. But so
basically, like what I'm trying to say is, like, I agree with her that coming here, like being here, it's easier
for me to like practice even though there's there's obviously been a there's been
Nasrin 7:19
a lot of struggles are a lot of temptations,
Dienabou 7:22
exactly. But then, like, that's what, at the end of the day, that's what wearing the hijab is for. The hijab
is like, they said hijab is a jihad. Like Jihad as in like a sacrifice for like, it's not like oh, boom boom we're
gonna fight jihad but jihad as in like,
Nasrin 7:38
inner struggle,
Dienabou 7:39
inner struggle like me, I'm going out here. Oh, yeah, maybe like somebody is gonna say something
because I look this way, but I'm going to do it because of my love for Allah you know and my love for my
religion. But it's, it's better for me. Because the culture trump's it and even like, when I go back home,
like, I learned hijab to pull hijab like this. I will be I will even wear like, you know, I will wear like a tank
top of whatever, anything, but if I wear full hijab like this, they're like, why are you trying to be like they
say, Wahhabia. Yeah, the extreme, whatever, you know what I mean? Why are you trying to be
extreme? Why you want to know, from like,
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 8:18
I'm wearing a tank top right now
Dienabou 8:19
Right? Like, they care so much about they care so much about like what others say, but then like, here
it's so just like, it just gives me an opportunity. Like Nasrin said like, look into what Islam really is without
the culture aspect. Like we make our own culture around this and I'm like when we're in America, the
people that are in America we have our own culture but then like we don't like we know that back
home. Yeah, they wild Yeah. So like, we know Okay, we don't want it like what were they doing? That's
wild. What did they say? Like? Let's look at the pure Islam. Let's look at what let's look at what the real
message of Islam is. Like we look like we go through and you're like, what the prophet ?????? someone
like what he taught us and so we're not you know, put in like those like normal whatever. Yeah.I agree.
Nasrin 9:14
And the beauty about Western Muslims are like, you never know who actually is practicing and how
someone could not be wearing hijab and they can be really really spiritual and I'll never know where in
other countries they're so used to see as Muslims all based on your dress them all like if you're not
dressed well, wow she's not practicing. You know, it's like they put like That's right, like emphasis on like
the way people look, you know, so even they do that here but it's just the beauty is the resources like
you know, a lot of the Muslims here since there are a lot of people are from different countries they
can't really have their culture
Dienabou 9:51
That one culture
Nasrin 9:53
Yeah, because they're all going to fight they're gonna be like, Well, my culture, like disagrees with this,
so then they're gonna find out okay, this is the is a cultural thing. It's not really islam. and practice islam
for what it is. So a lot of the scholars in America, literally, they will throw out any cultural information,
yeah, out the window. And given only teach you what is really islam, and it really does help a lot of like,
the western US or any Muslims, because we get to learn the true Islam the true meaning and how the
Prophet lived and all this and all that. So it's like, just like, and then you get to decide for your own self
what is actually right. You know, I mean, where in other countries, it's like judgment. Like, yeah, they will
judge you based on what you do. Like, someone here could be smoking, drinking, but they know, deep
in their heart that like, God is there are like Islam is what the one thing they they want to do, you know,
even then they're not practicing or they might be practicing, but they're doing other things. But it's just
like, it's the beauty is like, they they're at least sure, yeah, we're over there is like, they don't even have
the chance to questions. Yeah, like they don't even
Dienabou 11:01
like, like, I think this would apply more for the east Africa, just because they practice more, but when
you're here, you have more of a choice with the hijab. Cuz, like over there It's like, okay, you put it on,
you knw what I mean. So like, you have more of a choice to get, like, you get to question okay "Why am I
want hijab, what does it mean? You know, like, it's easier. And like, for me, it was even, it was just so
much easier, just like seeing that um since I, since I like didn't even have it like it was more of a choice
for me to wear hijab, because back home, like being judged wearing my, like this. So it wasn't I guess it
was these, I guess it was like, and I take more pride in like my decision of hijab because I took it from
myself and I've had, and I've had so many questions. Like, does your dad make you wear it? Like when I
when they asked me, I'm just like, Oh,it doesn't stick like they're implying I'm forced, but then like, I'm
just like, it like it takes me like, Whoa, you did this yourself? a pat on the back. Yeah, I mean, I'm like a
lot of people struggle with it. Like, even I struggle with it, like, even like
Nasrin 12:16
Hijab in general is a struggle as for females, especially living in the western country, because obviously
we all like we still have the same feelings is just a other people. It's just like, don't but also like, I can't
imagine myself without hijab because I enjoy matching my clothes with hijab. This and that, it's showing
up for
Dienabou 12:46
Sometimes though, there is those times like, I'm black, you know, like black girls be rockin some nice
weaves, like, I want to I used to actually wear weaves sometimes I be like, Oh, I miss it. But I'm like, I'm
like, why would
Nasrin 13:01
We go around it by having like, all female parties. You've seen like I dyed my hair underneath my hijab.
And nobody saw but my girls. You know what I mean?
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:16
You all amp each other up
Nasrin 13:16
Yeah exactly
Dienabou 13:18
And we have like, like, some of my friends have all girls snapchats. We have my finsta's all girls, you
know?
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:26
There's a lot more choice now with social media like Instagram the close friends. Yeah, yeah. You have
more control about who can see it
Dienabou 13:34
So that's always a plus.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:35
Like you still like do social media. Yeah.
Nasrin 13:37
You can still tell the world you still cute
Dienabou 13:43
Just because men can't see it and they don't have to see everything
Nasrin 13:45
to be honest. Yeah. But even then, like, I wouldn't even want my like men to see it because like, I would
get disrespected like some guy would really feel like honestly, let me let me slide through her DM's and
say something.
Dienabou 13:58
Especially nowadays, like, I just feel like, I don't I'm not going to generalize all men, but a lot of men just
have such disgusting minds. They're so disgusting and like, like, you will like people like Okay, um, I even
heard of cases of people getting sexually harassed at hajj, like pilgrammage. And when this is supposed
to be okay, the time
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 14:24
a sacred space
Dienabou 14:25
Yeah, like sexually harassed it like, you know what I mean? Like, she's covered from head to toe. Yeah.
And you're getting sexually harassed. It's like, no, in a way for me, it's also a liberation though. Because
like, like, I don't need to look like this.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 14:43
And you choose, you have control over what people see of you.
Nasrin 14:45
Yeah, like, Muslims in America, like the best thing is, like, there's so many different ways of people how
they appear like, yeah, even like, just, for example, the style of how Muslim should be this. So like,
there's no actual like, moving on. Like, besides being modest, there's no rules on how to wear your
hijab. Yeah. As long as you cover the central parts, right. Yeah, so you can see someone dressed so
modest, like full covering their face and all this and someone who's not you know what I mean? And it's
like, it's so pretty, because like, people get to decide what's best for me. And let God judge them instead
of letting people judge them. Yeah, I mean, like, if I lived where my mom was from, I wouldn't have the
opportunity to dress and explore my style. I would be stared at because I'm unusual, you know what I
mean? Because oh, every single person dresses like this. Why are you dressed so different? I would get
that uncomfortable stare and like it's not like that here because maybe it used to be when there wasn't
that many Muslims and like when when they would see a Muslim with hijab maybe they'd get stared at.
But now that it's so like diverse
Especially like in Minnesota, especially in Minnesota and Yeah.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 16:01
Like Minneapolis, even in like rural places there are muslims everywhere.
Nasrin 16:04
Yeah. Yeah. It's like,even thought like they're still like bad aspects of like living here.
Dienabou 16:11
There is but, honestly,but honestly, that's that's a challenge no matter where you go, you're gonna
you're gonna experience it, no matter where
Nasrin 16:21
in different ways,
Dienabou 16:22
in different ways. But still the fact you're still going to create? Yeah, so you can escape it
Nasrin 16:26
Yeah, but even like, like let's say, like, you don't see that many Muslims that cover their face. Like I had
like some my siblings, try, you know, try to do that. That is the extra spiritual thing. It's not mandatory.
But it's just like a person, like a lot of girls maybe feel like this is an extra take. They want to just get
extra close to allah you know what I mean? And like, it was hard for them to for them to keep on
wearing it because it's not common.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 16:54
I think slowly I've seen more and more women do that. But here it's still like freaks people out.
Nasrin 16:54
Yeah, it's not as common.
Dienabou 16:55
I feel like it's more dangerous even, yeah,
even some people say like, it's better for you, like in the West it's better for you not to just because
Nasrin 17:14
they get like, like I still my sister and even get like my sister works at the CVS Pharmacy. And she used to
cover her face. And every single time there would be a customer and they would talk to her rudely and
all this and all that. And so a lot like it's a struggle she would have to like calm from I like a certain extent
people get angry, like, how long are you going to keep your temper like, you know what I mean? And
like, she had to take it off. She just couldn't like, and at the same time
Dienabou 17:40
I know multiple people that took it off
Nasrin 17:42
And it's like. It just puts people in like, it's sad that that's reality right now. But um, yeah. I just feel like
that is one area that a lot of Muslims kind of struggle like if I was ever to feel like I want to do that extra
step to cover myself a lot a little more. I know it's going to be sometimes a struggle because I see my
sister struggle my sisters because like every my other sister she was going to college, buses would
deliver in the winter in the code on purpose is just like it's just out of people. Ignorance kind of hit you.
But yeah, hopefully I got this enormous things. I feel like the more they people could see, like the actual
like,
Dienabou 18:27
you say the thing is that you have to Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean,
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 18:31
I had all these questions, and I'm just like, Where are they? Oh, so you talked about this, like back
home? A lot of times people almost see islam because it's so embedded in the culture that was like
symbolic. Yeah, people just wear like, hijab just because like, that's just what we do. Yeah. So it'slike not
Dienabou 18:54
Yeah, so yeah, that's it's not
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 18:57
and so here you have the ability, like the context and the past stronger and your questions,
Nasrin 19:02
attacks looking different.
Dienabou 19:04
The stairs.
Nasrin 19:05
Yeah.
Cuz like a child like me. Nasrin was 10 years old. I was curious about her religion, where if I lived
somewhere where it's so comfortable, I wouldn't appreciate it
Dienabou 19:17
I'd be like okay, this is what everybody does.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 19:19
I'm going to do it.
Nasrin 19:20
Like even like Like for example, when I went to India, right? And this is like I have never been there but
when I went there a couple of years ago, like the way my cousins who are older than me the way they
view Islam and the way I view Islam is so different. They have a lot of cultural Islamic like the the Indian
culture and Islam mixed. Wh ere for me, it's straight up because my mom knew being a mix, like I'm
mixed. So like my I wasn't really raised in a specific culture and growing up and being born in different
countries. I don't have a specific culture that I practice so even that's maybe an advantage I have. But
like me, compared to my cousin I have like what Islam like the information I have is just like straight on
Islamic information. Where for her she would literally believe her Indian mixed cultural and Islam
information is true. Sometimes it's so hard because
Dienabou 19:25
And they're hard-headed about it
Nasrin 19:58
And so you try to explain to them this is not actually islam, it's more cultural
Dienabou 20:18
And they say "oh you see what people in the West are teaching"
Nasrin 20:23
as a yes. And very few like, obviously, like a lot of there's a lot of like knowledge, Muslims that live they
live in that country. Culture kind of, but even
Dienabou 20:40
even the knowledge, they even have that filter. And Islam doesn't say that you don't have a culture is
gone. It's like he says, I have so many like, I lost I was like, I brought so many people from different
tribes. But the thing is, when you like, when you like what is the word when you prioritize culture? Over
Islam? That's a problem. Yeah, that's a big problem. That's the problem with a lot of Western. Yeah. I
mean, western countries.
Nasrin 21:11
Islamic Yeah.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:13
Do you feel like that's not here though? Do you feel like that doesn't happen as much here?
Dienabou 21:16
not as much because like Nasrin said there's so many cultures no one can say
Nasrin 21:22
they question each other. Yeah, no, that's
Dienabou 21:23
obviously but there is like, okay, there's like an honorable mention here. Yeah, give me one sec. Yes.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:30
In an enclave like if you're a Somali Muslim like this like and if you live here, they often do not know but
then
Dienabou 21:36
yeah, that's true.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:37
You're basically living in that culture because he that's right everyone around you is
exactly yeah, they
broke apart and places like yeah, we're it's like there's so many different people but
yeah, surrounded by everyone within even but even that,
Dienabou 21:52
just because there's so many in this the younger generation, they challenged the elders, there's so many
people that get challenged and then it just gives them like, Okay, why are people doing it this way? This
is what I know. Why are they doing. Then they become more open minded. And I've seen my parents
like shift their even their way of thinking. So becoming more open minded and like saying, Okay, this is
how they did it back home. But is this really right?
Nasrin 22:21
If they disagree too, it's just like, okay, we raised we brought this kid here. So let them like find out kind
of, like,
Dienabou 22:31
Yes, but also it's that So okay, I brought the kids here and it gives them an opportunity to become more
open minded, even if they have Okay, this is the way I think is right, it gives them the opportunity to be
like, okay, maybe other people think different, ya know what I mean? Instead of saying these people are
crazy yeah, you know, they said they still do that
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 22:54
Cuz they're also constantly challenged
Nasrin 22:56
and honestly it goes both ways to their parents that literally wouldn't like their kids to wear hijab or be
around Muslim just because they're scared that something will happen or even dumb themselves there
so like, into like, Oh, I want to be westernized I want to live the Western life this is that that they try to
avoid any Islamic relationship or connection, and there's also the other one too, and like so it's it's a
challenge for both and for each family like I have seen a lot of like Muslim friends that like they're like
oh, I don't I want to wear hijab but my mom would not let me my dad would not let they literally would
not like that and this and then there's the opposite you know, I mean, so that goes that there's
challenges in that way. But when it comes to like like when you mentioned culture being having culture
here, I think like she mentioned it's more of the older leads they might have the like their cultural thing
from like back home and now
Dienabou 23:55
they're they're dying
Nasrin 23:58
like yeah, it's like majority of the millennial or the younger generation of Muslims in America are very
Yeah, they're very Western like they're more westernized but also like I mentioned it's very like very like
Islam as Islam like you don't see much of like cultural influences and if you do see like her friends with
question that like, like like, let's say like my friends are not all from the same culture countries, but
they're all Muslims, right? So if they try to say something from what they're mom said or what their dad
said we start to question like
Dienabou 24:33
we always do it like "where did you hear that?"
Nasrin 24:36
yeah, and then that kind of helps us like cultures Yeah.
Dienabou 24:43
And just even like, like I took even some classes even like the culture and this is one culture of like,
women's voices Yeah, women's voices become we say like our eyes like something like that supposed to
be hit like you're already you're not even really like your private parts of your, so they say so like men
think oh quiet down your voices like that sure our end and that's the saloon even like some of my
friends that when we're praying so so like when you're praying there's different a certain phrase I just
pushed to say out loud enough say and why so the praise our for Allah when I'm with my friends and I'm
like, okay, who's going to lead you know, they'll be like oh yeah, you don't have to they say that what
you call it you're not supposed to like say it loud. Yeah yeah,
Nasrin 25:33
As the women and this and that because the men would tell them that other than that, but that's not
really that the truth, you know what I mean?
Dienabou 25:35
then there's the one I mean, like being here different perspectives like they get debunked like really?
Are you sure that's just not a big car or whatever? and just like telling them Yo, where did you get this
from?
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:02
So when I was back at North Hennepin and like I would hear a lot from people that there's still a lot of
like Arabs think they're better than everybody else like
Dienabou 26:10
oh yeah
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:11
that's still like even though for some here is
Dienabou 26:15
100%
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:16
It's not as cultural there's still that color is 100 and it's still Arab supremacy.
Nasrin 26:21
I think there is color in every every country
Dienabou 26:24
everywhere, there's color
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:29
Do you think that Arabs like invalidate you as Muslims?
Dienabou 26:34
yes because
Nasrin 26:36
I think it's more of the language because Islam is predominantly Arabic, like the quran is in Arabic, I think
the thing is a lot of things that I seen like a lot of like majority the younger the younger generation of
Arabs Don't do it. Don't do it as much as the older but you can see the influences from their parents
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:36
You think so? Because at North Hennepin I felt like...
Dienabou 26:43
I don't agree with that
Nasrin 26:47
The thing is I don't interact with Arabs as much like
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:57
But Why though? For that reason?
Nasrin 26:59
for me, it's just, I just.. no no no no no. I'm never like that. Some of my friends are. Me? I meet someone
for who they are. I'm never like that because I told you I was raised very, I don't have this cultural thing
like I was raised very very neutral.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 27:19
Cuz you were born in Ethiopia but your Culture is not like your ethnic identity
Nasrin 27:22
We don't have anything we practice. Like literally like even if my mom sometimes tries to put some of
her culture and like tries to like embed her her cultural like views on us,
Dienabou 27:31
Like mom really?
Nasrin 27:31
We would start questioning, Oh my whole siblings start questioning and she'll be like okay, you know,
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 27:35
like "you know what? forget it"
Nasrin 27:36
Yeah, so like, even then like for us we don't really have that like even Dienabou has seen it. I wasn't
born here but I don't have like Ethiopian culture. I don't have the Somali culture. Indian culture. I don't
have that I'm just like lost like you know? but I just practice Islam. You know what I mean? But um, what
was I trying to get to? Yeah, therefore I, I just never really met Arabs as much, I think in my school there
wasn't as many of them like I never was close it just never happened. I don't know it's not not that I was
being done.
Dienabou 28:09
I definitely think it's 50/50 cuz I've seen I've talked to Muslims. Okay, one thing is I'll be friends with, Like
Nasrin said, anyone no matter what and even like I even still have some friends that are like that say
stuff like, "You can't say that". It's 50/50 like I've had friends that like they say some stuff and I'm like I
like but I don't want to call them out because I feel bad I don't want to be like don't say that but just like
like I like I think I used to take this like Friday class you know as I wasn't even a class it was like a girl
group yeah whatever we come together and it would be like Arabs and the Arabs, Somalis, Ethiopians all
of us like it would be a lot of them even like some of the things that Arabs would say, I'd be like "my dad
would never let me marry a black man" like and they were just so open just how they say it and like "we
have black people this black people that"
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 29:19
So islam does not erase racism?
Dienabou 29:27
It's supposed to
Nasrin 29:28
no no
Dienabou 29:31
the thing with Islam is, Islam is one thing, muslims are another like Nasrin said So you choose. Nobody's
gonna follow everything the same. You know what I mean?
Nasrin 29:40
Islam is like literally don't be racist, right? A true Muslim wouldn't be racist like someone might like you
know, but I'm Islam like.. What was I talking about? Islam tells you not to do this like being racist and all
that because God created everything right? we're all equal. No Arab, it's even in the Quran, no Arab is
better than a non Arab and non Arabs is not, like you know? So it literally forces you, you have to
practice that, even if you break that rule like that's a sin. When you think bad of a non Muslim, a non
Arab if you're Arab, you think the same and then so forth goes, you're sinning in some cases.
Nasrin 29:49
No, you're sinning just because of the fact that, we believe that like, you know, like the story of like,
Adam, and do you guys do it now you guys do? I don't know if this is in other religions. But the fact that
the devil or that the devil didn't bow down to Adam, so because he thought he was better. But in a
sense, you're doing exactly what the devil did. You know what I mean? like your belief. And like another
thing is too, like I... go ahead.
Nasrin 30:53
And like in the Quran it puts a huge emphasis that God hates those arrogance, fake people who think
they're better than other people, you know what I mean?
Dienabou 31:02
They say that one ounce of pride, Like you don't get into heaven. That's what they say. Like even one
atom weight of pride. Like you're not even supposed to have that.
Nasrin 31:10
And that's where the Muslims come and make mistakes and do that. So like, yeah, I seen a lot. Like I've
seen a couple of Arab kids say certain things that I was like, excuse me? And the funny thing is, a lot of
Arab kids think I'm Arab. So they think like, I would agree with them. Little do they know that I was
raised and been around black people way before, you know what I mean?
Dienabou 31:33
Even yesterday we were even talking.. You're half Black!
Nasrin 31:37
yeah yeah yeah no like..
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 31:38
Do you consider yourself Black?
Nasrin 31:39
Yeah, I consider myself a lot more black than anything else. Because that's the kind of area like I was
raised in.
Dienabou 31:46
At the end of the day, that's what she is. Whither people like it or not.
Nasrin 31:48
Yeah but I'm still half right. When people see me they don't really like, very few chances. Yeah, very few
chances where people question if I was Black. a lot of the time they think straight up I'm, I'm not black
and they say a lot of racist things!
Dienabou 31:59
We were talking about it yesterday. We were talking about it. We were at the movies or whatever. But
we were talking about. So this, no we were at Chipotle. Yeah, and this random dude started to say some
Arabic to her and we're like "?" And then she was like, Oh, yeah, last time this guy was like are you Arab?
Nasrin 32:17
She's Arab right? Like that.
Dienabou 32:19
Like next time We're gonna say she's Black and i'm Arab, because she's obviously black and there's black
Aras. So just that idea of like the light skin preferring.
Nasrin 32:32
Preferring, yeah. That happens a lot.
Dienabou 32:41
Even just having that like Islam is our religion. Like so many people, so many. Thank you so many. Okay,
first of all, Islam only came to y'all because y'all was going crazy. Yeah, so keep talking. Yeah but even
just, like people think that I wasn't born Muslim. Or they think I was Somali. Yeah. East African or I
wasn't born Muslim. Like It's kind of like the erasure of West African Muslim. And I do think that West
African Muslim kinda sort of ish have a part of it just because they don't practice like that. but even just
like, "Did you convert?" Like I don't know, how many times, "when did you convert? Like, "What's your
convert story?"
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 32:49
Is it because they think that you're American black? Or is it because
Dienabou 33:28
yeah, they think I'm and even they don't know that West Africa..
Nasrin 33:31
Or it could also be like, Oh, I speak Arabic, Therefore, I know the religion more than you. Even when
they're not practicing right? Like, I even had a situation with one girl, like we were we were in and I think
maybe Dienabou was there, but we were having like a religious conversation and this girl You know, like,
I'm not going to judge her or whatever, but I don't, I don't see her practice. Like you know what I mean?
But she tried to correct us, like the girls because we weren't like, we weren't arab, we didn't speak
Arabic. She felt like she had the obligation to put her opinion
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:06
So Arabs, if they're even if they're not practicing, They're just like the true believers?
Dienabou 34:10
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:11
They like inherently they know more?
Nasrin 34:14
that's what we see.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:17
Even if they're going out there going crazy drinking and all this stuff.
Nasrin 34:19
yeah, like that's what we kind of see and like obviously they know, they know well that Islam is based
on your actions regardless of what you are like.
Dienabou 34:27
Allah does not care; Man, woman, blah blah blah whatever.
Nasrin 34:28
I'm pretty sure they know what, but there's that arrogance like "oh I'm Arab, I know more about you
like I can, I understand the Quran. Do you understand besides reading the translation?", you know what
I mean? It's kind of like you kind of get that vibe from them sometimes and it's just like, excuse me like
okay, but why aren't you practicing then? I'm like, you literally are, so gifted you know the language like
when someone is reciting the quran, you know it.
Dienabou 34:35
That's a sin. That's a hypocrite. The hypocrites are the lowest of hell, but go ahead.
Nasrin 34:54
so is it like that does come and also like the light skin kind of preference I see that a lot and I really hate
it. That happens to me a lot because I am light skin a lot of the Arabs feel like "Oh she's not anything but
Arab, she's Arab" or like they will literally force their views on me like no, you got to be like. Um so
funny. This guy asked me where I was from and I usually don't tell people where I'm from whatever just
cuz , I'm lost as heck I don't really know where I'm from. So this guy was like, Oh, where are you from?
Are you Arab? And I said I'm not Arab I straight up the first thing when someone asks me if I'm Arab like,
I really oh man I'm so offended I'm straight I'm going to tell you no cuz you tried. But um and something
like "What are you?" whatever you know and then I literally tell him, I'm Asian and black like I'm Indian
and Somali and he wanted me to be Arab so bad. He was like, "Somalis are Arab though?"
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 35:54
He was like, "I'm trying to chop right now. Please be Arab"
Dienabou 35:55
So I can bring you to my mom.
Nasrin 36:00
The thing is he was just like you look so Arab. There's gotta be some Arab in you. So he was trying to
make an excuse for Somalis being Arab but I'm like excuse me My dad is Black. He is Black and you don't
see any Arab in him so I don't know. Yeah, so I'm like no no no no no. Somalis are not Arab one, we
don't speak Arabic Their writing is not Arabic. They don't know Arab. So they're not Arab, the culture is
not Arab. It's not Arab. it's not in the Arab continent. I said Arab continent.
but yeah, so he was really trying to push me towards like, oh you're my people I am not your people. I
don't even know the intention because he was an older guy. But then there's just like that pride Yeah,
it's just like you're my people, oh you're lightskin? you're my people kind of thing No, like no
Dienabou 36:53
I don't want to be associated with you.
Nasrin 36:59
And there is Black Arabs! That when they claim. Yes. Yes Sudanis, Egyptians, yes like dark skin when they
claim Arab people get offended. Arabs get offended like oh, they be like, Oh, no, you got to be, oh
you're that type..
Dienabou 37:19
oh, that Arab like even with like...
Nasrin 37:22
you know what I mean? like, second class.
Dienabou 37:24
So definitely, definitely Arab superiority
Nasrin 37:28
And That is cultural, you know what I mean? it's not Islam.
Dienabou 37:31
Even if you see like, what they're doing to like I don't know if it would be immigrants from like, like
Kenyan immigrants. Saudi, like how they're being treated?
Nasrin 37:42
Saudi is just a whole different story. Yeah. Saudi and the thing is that's the problem because westerns
take that and they think this is what Islam because Saudi is so cultural. Like 90% of Saudi practice,
religion, all this is so cultural, that people don't understand that because of the place the holiest place of
the, for Muslims is in Saudi. A lot of people think, oh whatever they practice there whatever is enforced,
there is the right, the way Muslim should, no it's not. The government is corrupted. Literally. So sad.
Dienabou 38:17
Period, period.
Nasrin 38:21
We just started ranting.
Dienabou 38:31
Actually, when I was talking about actually Oh, it's not just from Arabs that do that. I got like people not
think I don't have Black in me or whatever. There was this guy started saying something about slavery
and this, he thought that I wasn't like, he thought I was Arab. He didn't think I was like, you know, I had
any Black in me. And then he started saying this tricky things. And I was just like, excuse me, literally that
day. And I used to work with him. Thank God he left and I am like, I every time I was seeing him, my
heart was he's the way his mentality goes, O my God. He was straight up white dude who did not care
about anyone. And he started staying stuff and this Asian kid was supporting him and I'm like Bruh. I had
to go pray.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 39:21
So like you like fit in. Like people say all this shit around you.
Nasrin 39:25
Honestly, I be seeing, I be seeing so much stuff and it's so funny it's just like, woah
Dienabou 39:31
can't relate.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 39:34
So do you feel like living in Minnesota as a Muslim. It's like, it's pretty cool?
Dienabou 39:39
It's okay. It's all right. Okay, as a Muslim Yeah. I hate Minnesota. Yeah. But as a Muslim yeah, just
because. I don't know. It's the community of Muslims. I feel like having Muslim sisters around me make
me a better Muslim Um, I guess you can say like, it's easier for me to wear hijab. Because I have Muslim
friends, hijabi friends. So. I guess, yeah.
Nasrin 40:03
Yeah I think it's okay, I really don't question Minnesota like that. Never really thought of it.
Dienabou 40:09
But I do like, how like there is such a big population of Muslims. There's like so many, like, the classes
that come here, like, ways for me to get more Islamic knowledge.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 40:21
Like, there's a lot of resources, and there are a lot of people I feel like it would be different. Yeah. Yeah.
And since there are so many people and this younger generation,
Dienabou 40:31
exactly.
Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 40:32
And again, that true Islam, but you guys were talking about.
Dienabou 40:35
Fo sho, Fo sho, Yeah. And even like, we have our third Gen, no, first generation like, culture, first gen
culture, like even like, yeah, there's a Somali, whatever, we're all first gen and we're all Muslim so I can I
feel like that in itself is a culture. And that's really, really cool.
Show less
Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg?
Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg.
What do you want to do is biology?
Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school.
But I'm ... Show more
Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg?
Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg.
What do you want to do is biology?
Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school.
But I'm also really interested in public health. And I know, schools nearby have like a dental
masters in public health degree on so that's something that interests me, but you know, just
something I can get back to the community would be nice.
Yeah. And have you like, Look, dug deep into masters programs or anything like that?
What do you mean by that?
I mean, have you started looking at schools?
Yeah, um, you know, there are some schools like everybody looks at you know, out west
because of the weather but yeah, I think I wanted to stay, you know, closer to home probably,
either. You know, I think Augsburg… Augsburg doesn’t have dental school or MPH. I wish they
did, because I love Augsburg, but um, you know the University of Minnesota has that dual
degree program and a Master's in Public Health schools and I kinda just want to be closer to my
family and be here by you know, being away from me for two years would not be too bad.
Right, right.
Somewhere with one another.
Yeah, exactly. I'm looking at. I mean, I've thinking about grad school, but I haven't looked too
far into it.
Yeah.
I totally get that too. I have a pretty big family too. And so that's always important to me. And I
think Sarah told me that you also have a big family?
Yeah, I'm the oldest of eight kids and my family. Yeah, it's uh, I think I had to develop into this,
like more of a parental role sometimes too, because I feel like I'm obligated to my siblings like
to you know, provide like a good path. Because I feel like I was kind of you know, the firstborns
are really kind of a test dummies in this world to say, parents are kind of trying new things out
on us kind of experiencing the first time. So I think it's my responsibility to let them know
what's right from wrong and a sense and how to go about things since I already went through
it. You know, so.
Yeah, totally get that because I'm the oldest of eight as well.
No way.
Yeah, I know. Yeah. How young is your youngest sibling?
My youngest sibling is about a year. A year and almost two months. He's a baby.
How many like brothers and sisters is it?
I've got three brothers and four sisters.
Nice.
Yes.
I have two brothers and five sisters.
Wow.
Yeah. Lots of girls in my household.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s fun, though!
How old is the youngest for you?
Um, she's two and a half right now. Yeah. So she was born my senior year of high school when I
was going into college. So that's kind of what made my college decision to staying close to
home. So I was able to be close to her. Yeah.
Have you always lived over there in Edina?
I don’t live in Edina, I live in southwest Minneapolis.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right.
I live in Southwest Minneapolis. I went to Edina high school, but I grew up in that area for a
while. I think I've been there for about 12 years. Yeah, it's it's been a while. It's like it's been a
good experience living in my neighborhood. I live in to the Linden Hills neighborhood. It's one of
the best neighborhoods I think, in the in the country, if I could say that. It’s really nice and we
have such a nice community there. Everybody really cares for each other. Um, um, but I’ve
been, before that I used to live in St. Paul, in the McKnight neighborhood and um, it was nice as
well, you know, lot more diverse than my neighborhood now. But the it was not as, like, you
know safe so my parents wanted somewhere with that was more safe for children, our growing
family, so it was a good choice to come to this neighborhood. And you know, before that I was,
um, I lived, I came to United States in 2000 I think 2001 or 2002 sometime, in 2000, 2001, 2002.
Sometime in that time period and I, uh, came from Kenya. I was born in Kenya. My family my
family's Somali but we're we went to Kenya then at some point in my history and then we
stayed in Kenya in a little place called Garissa for a little bit. My dad’s side at least, my mom’s
side’s from a place called Wajir. It’s in northern Kenya. And then we decided to pack up and
move to the United States and just you know, in hopes for a better life and you know, I think
we're achieving what my parents hoped for so I'm happy for that.
Good. What do your, what do your parents do?
My, uh, my Mom, works for the county. She works for Hennepin County. I think she's in human
services. Um, I say I think because I don’t know, my mom really doesn’t talking about her job
and she just kind of grinds and my mom’s a very hard working woman. Um, and, uh, my dad
works in Kenya. Um, yeah, yeah.
Do you ever go back to Kenya at all?
Well, I've been there. I went there during the summer going into eighth grade. Um, and it was
really interesting I thought it is really, uh real culture shock because, it shouldn't have been
because I was born there and I used to speak, you know, Somali and Swahili. Um, but I just
think I got immersed in the American culture and I wasn't really like, I really didn't know about
life back then. And, um, it was really, I think inspired me to be you know, that person in my
family, because right now I'm the first person ever in my family like not just my immediate
family, like extended family, like in my lineage to ever go to college. So that's important. I
thought since I had this opportunity, I would like to, you know, do something give back to my
family in Kenya who don't have the same opportunities. So I'd like to, you know, somehow, you
know, give back because I know, when I was younger, a lot of my aunts and uncles were taking
care of me, so I will actually repay them for that. So that's my goal, as well as I've also
developed, like, a responsibility for to take not take care of but you know, to give back to my
own community here, because a lot of people here have also helped me become the man I am
today. And, um, we have a lot of potential, like for change in this community. So I'm excited for
the years to come.
Um, how has your like experience at Augsburg been in terms of, I guess everything but like
being first generation college student, being in Minneapolis.
Yeah, I think my, if I could label maybe a word that would define my, like, you know, career my
time at Augsburg would probably be growth and I know that's just growth is something that's
synonymous with a lot of people's college experience. But coming into college, I was very, um, I
don't know how to even say it. I was very, like, closed minded, and in a sense that, of course,
I'm coming from high school and not a lot of high schoolers, you know, have like a big view of
the world and they don't really know what's happening. And I just thought that my little bubble
of Edina high school is all that there was in a sense, but at the same time, even then, I knew
that I was different. Because a lot of first physically in my skin color is a lot different from
people at my school, and that I knew I was different than again, I wasn't just that I was also
Muslim. So being black and Muslim was different and I knew I couldn't do things that my you
know my counterparts were doing, people who were my age are doing or you know behaving,
whatever, because I knew I had some other obligation that but I think when I got to Augsburg is
when I really found myself immersed in first so my Somali heritage and be able to get closer
with the Somali side of me and the more black side of me. And I think that's something I can I'm
so glad I was able to do, and I don't think I would have been able to do that any other college I
feel, because I was able to be completely myself and learn about what's great about myself and
how I am enough and like just really cool stuff in like a lot of the rhetoric that you know, the
Augsburg administration, like staff and the people from the president down like it's so inclusive
and positive and I'm like, this is great, you know, just being like a young kid going to this thing
by myself. I just felt like at the same time I wasn't alone. So it was nice to do that at Augsburg,
and you know, every day I was growing and understanding that there's problems here and I
wanted to fix it and you know, becoming more complete in a sense, you know, just being
having those parts of me that I wasn't so sure about my, you know, my heritage and my culture
that being filled in, like everyday a little bit was really amazing. And then but at the same time
knowing how to navigate in white space was very, like, you know, beneficial the same time
because I could do both. And it was, I think that it’s something that I really attribute to being
my time at Edina and it was really helpful. So I think I think that I really appreciate that time
there too.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. While you were saying all that, you mentioned know, being black
and being Muslim being Somali, like how would you describe your identity as a whole and you
can interpret that however you want?
Yeah. Um, I describe my identity, just like the way that you know, people, in America like to put
people in boxes, you know, like I feel like nowadays we all put people in boxes and say you're
this, you can’t be that, or you’re this or you’re that, you know, but I think I’m me, then I'm
Muslim for me and then I'm also Somali. And I'm also black. Because black, being black is a race
and like, every day I go out in this world and nobody.. For example, I was just in Israel and
Palestine and I'm Muslim, but I'm not visibly Muslim as opposed to my Muslim… My Somali like
you know, the Somali women in my community who are visibly Muslim it they wear hijabs. So I
just look like you know, quote on, you know, a regular black person, a black man. So like I go up
to this al-aqsa mosque and at the entrances they have these guards that are asking people if
they're Muslim or not because sometimes during certain times only Muslims can go into the
mosque and these were Israeli soldiers. So then I say “yeah, like yeah hi I want to go pray” and I
walk past, “hey, are you Muslim”, like “yeah, I’m Muslim” and they look at me so like I'm not
Arab or anything like that but I'm Muslim at the same time. So I asked them like “hey, like why
can’t I go in?” Like I'm like, I'm Muslim like let me just get through and I want to go pray but you
know, they look at me they you know, they just give me a hard time for a little bit and then they
ask for my passport and I was like, why would my, my passport doesn’t stamp “I’m Muslim”, it
doesn’t show that I, what my religion is and eventually you know, I just told them you know, I’m
Muslim I want to go, I need to go pray, so they just let me through. But you know, just
understanding that you know, at the end of the day like before that when people see like I’m,
my skin color, I’m black, and I can’t erase, like that’s something, that’s something that people
can’t try to erase like I am who I am, and then I'm Somali as well, like Somali’s an ethnicity as
like even though people, it's a nationality, some people believe, it's also an ethnicity and I think
it is, um, like but um, but yeah I think, uh, that's who I identify myself as and I know now as
we're coming up with different, you know, things to identify people because everybody's so
different, you know, and that's beautiful, because I think there's, um, I think I'm [incoherent]
learning [incoherent] while at Augsburg, so I’m cis-gendered, I think? Heterosexual male?
Yeah.
So that's something new about myself I didn't know. I didn't know the wording I knew I knew
that, but I didn't know how to word that. So that's something new I learned as well. And also
my pronouns, too, it’s like, every day we're learning how so complicated people are and so
different, like, I feel like we should be able to, you know, it's, you know, just really explore that
and, you know, embrace that, and I love how Augsburg does that and it's a cool thing.
Yeah, I totally agree. I didn't know about any of those things coming into Augsburg too and now
getting ready to leave soon. It's like, I feel like I know so much more.
Yeah.
And we all are so different but like, I feel like that brings me closer to people. It's like we have
so many different things. So, yeah, definitely relate to that. So you talked about, like being
Muslim and being black. And I just want to know, like, some of the ways how does like being
Muslim affect your black identity? if any?
I don't really think it does. Because I don't know. Um, I feel like blackness is not just one thing,
you know, it's like blackness is a lot of times construed as just being like, um like, um American
black, you know, like African American culture but, but there's so much more than that.
Because black people are everywhere in the world, and there's different, there's different
aspects to blackness and being black. And also like, I don't know, like in America, we see African
Americans are black and black people, they’re the same thing. What am I saying? Like, black
people like, see that’s what I’m saying, it's kind of people, like people think. I don't know, it's
like, you can be black but sometimes, you know, African American, you know, like, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. So like, it's just, it's like people, it's something that people can just are just
different. They don't understand.
Right.
And it's hard to understand. But, like in America, black are a minority. But, you know, it means
something else to be in a country where the black people are the majority and how you don't
have to think about you know, institutional racism, even though even though, I believe in all
black majority countries still feel racism.
Right, right.
You know because of colonization and imperialism.
Exactly.
But yeah it's like there's so many aspects to it and it's, I think it does you know it says it does
people an injustice to say, you know, like you know, you’re not black enough or you know, or
black. This is black, like what is? There's so many different things it's like you know it's so, it's
really weird to see it and I remember growing up people told me I wasn't black enough or,
“you’re so white.” That's something I really heard a lot and it was the worst thing because it's
like what does that mean “I'm not black enough”? What is being white? What is being black? I
am black. It’s my skin. I am who I am, so putting people into boxes is so weird, but at the end of
the day blackness is a thing that people I feel like especially, you know, Muslims are black and I
feel like that Muslims have been erased from the whole now black Muslims have been erased
from the whole narrative of what it is to be a Muslim because all you see in the media are Arab
Muslims, or lighter skinned Muslims. And, yeah, you just tend to see that a lot. So that's
something that I feel like we're trying to reclaim now. That you know, black people are Muslim
and you know, black culture is part of Muslim culture, like the first person to ever give the, the
[] was, was an Ethiopian slave or ex slave named Bilal. So like the black Muslims have been
around since the time of you know, like, since for a very long time, so it's something that you
know, it's it is here and it's a thing and should be celebrated as well.
Yeah, I mean, that's like what we're learning about in our class too, which has been like super
eye opening to me is that like a majority of the slaves who, like were brought to America were
Muslim. But I don't know, I guess like I was never taught that and I never knew that. Yeah, so
that was like, crazy. And I know like so much history has been lost because of like the slave
trade and things like that. And I've just been, yeah, because you're just not taught that and then
there does like seem to be like such a divide in that context like disregarding black Muslims and
like that like side of our history. So that's been super interesting to learn. And within the black
community, though, do you ever feel any divisiveness? Like because of your religion or
experience any, like Islamophobia within the black community?
I'm trying to think personally… I can't really think of anything like that. Um, I just feel like maybe
I see accounts of other, you know, maybe I can tell you there’s like an African and you know,
African American kind of divide ‘cuz I remember like maybe people recounting the stories of
growing up African in America like coming straight from [Africa] as an immigrant not having
ancestors as slaves or anything like that. So the people, you know, there's this divide thinking
that, you know, Africans were like, you know, poor and they’re, you know, starving and they’re
in need so like, you know, I think the term African booty scratcher something that comes up a
lot when people talk about their childhood because that's something that people who people
who were direct immigrants from like, like, Africa like, like I said direct immigrants like they
came within their life from Africa. We had to deal with that anti-African nature, but I don't think
I really experienced in my life any anti-Muslim rhetoric from um, I don't know just, just like, like
from everyday life from other black Americans. Yeah, but I know that it exists though. It's a
thing that does exist.
Yeah. And what do you like have to say about that?
I don't think that that's something we should be, you know, something we should be fighting
about. I feel like we are already, as Black Americans, we’re already fighting a lot and
divisiveness within our own communities and I know we're all different community with, like
different communities exist within the black community, but we're all you know, dealing with
the same things essentially. And I feel like being united is much more beneficial to us and in
each religion it really does just preach tolerance, and I think that's something that we need to
like, you know, keep practicing because whatever may be I know that, you know, saying or just
treating something different because their religion is wrong and being more tolerant of that.
Yeah, I'm just like thinking about you talking about like the divisiveness between like Africanborn coming here and you know, like products of the slave trade. I definitely see that a lot.
Yeah.
And it is so frustrating to see because at the end of the day, everyone else sees us as black, you
know, like we're all the same.
Yeah. Even though we're not.
Even though we're not! Even though we have like many differences but like to have that own
divide in our community that's super frustrating to see. And really hard to watch, and especially
then going further into, like, islamophobia within the black community. Especially now knowing
like, the history of like our people also being Muslim is, yeah, crazy to me. Um, so I asked before
that, you know, like, how does your Muslim identity like effect your black identity, but now the
opposite like, does your black identity ever affect your Muslim identity? Like do you ever
experience colorism within your religious community or anything like that?
Well, like again, I feel like I’ve just been kind of blessed not to, like experience a lot of that, or
yet. But I do know within, I know there is colorism within the Somali community and I guess like
99% of Somalis or a very large, high percentage of Somalis are Muslim, so I don't— there isn't,
in Islam, there isn't, you know anything like colorism I feel that's like a cultural thing. And again,
that's part of white supremacy. That's creating these divides and making people not be
comfortable in their skins and making blackness look like an evil and bad thing. That's why
they're like, that’s why the skin whitening industry is like, you know, very big in majority African
countries and I feel like it's not something that in Islam, but I know that it's something that, that
it’s cultural and that needs to be destroyed because everybody's equal in Islam. That's a
beautiful thing. That's why people during the time of the Prophet [incoherent] were on, you
know, one of the reason that they didn't– were very against him because he's, there, like you
know, slaves who were, you know, part… slaves who were Muslim were in like the same rank…
like looked upon the same way in the eyes of God that you know people who were you know
kings or whatever, because we're all the same in the eyes of God so that's something that
people were very mad about. And so everybody's… this colorism thing is very difficult and really
is present and it's really, it's a big thing and you can see it within Somali community, you can
also see that you know maybe some Arabs think maybe that you know they might be better in a
sense sometimes. That's what, that's what I've heard. That you know that… even like the, you
know, that there's even this colorism within the black– in the Muslim community like that, too.
That maybe that the religion was, you know, how do I say, like founded in this part– in that part
of the world, Arab world, but and that they may be closer to it or have more, you know, more
ties to it. So they might be better or something like that. So, and they don't see maybe as black
Muslims being, you know, the same level as them but it doesn't make sense because we're all
the same in the eyes of God so it's something that we need to work on and I think that it's
getting better but there's a lot of work to be done.
Yeah, and that's not to say all Arabs, of course.
Right.
You know, but that's something that I've seen and I, I know that it's around. Yeah.
Can you talk a little bit about, like the Muslim community here at Augsburg or here [in]
Minneapolis that you found while you've been here?
Talk about the community here? Well I think this community… again, I have strong ties to the
East African Community here. Especially Somali community, I think it's incredible what the
Somali community here, Somali-Muslim community has done like in these last maybe 20 years
or so. How we've established a community here, how we are integrating and having businesses
here and really just, you know, making this place or a little part of this place our own in a sense,
you know, and like I just think it's incredible. And I want to just help improve that, or you know,
keep it going this whole wave of productivity and you know, business and, you know, just
supporting each other. I think it's really tight knit I think we all have good mindset. But with
any, you know, first generation immigrants or new immigrant community like problems will
arise and I think that you know, with time, those problems will decrease and or will be able to
be better at fixing those problems are at working to fix those problems. So yeah, but it's also
hard with the highlight that's on the Somali community now, especially with the President's
rhetoric and how Ilhan Omar has been attacked in the media. And Ilhan Omar doesn't speak for
all Somalis. But at the same time she is Somali. So that backlash does come back to some extent
back on the Muslim, Muslim Somali community, which also the Muslim community as a whole.
Especially now, especially now with those horrible terrorist event that occurred in New Zealand
and, like right now it's a tough time sometimes being Muslim.
Yeah.
So all you can do sometimes is pray, but at the same time, you know, work to fight against that
and not be afraid. Yeah.
And would you say that the community that you found here helps during those hard times?
Yeah, I think we're all really well [incoherent], with our, we have a lot of Muslim, we have a lot
of mosques here. And I think that's where the community comes from. And we're all we all kind
of the– Minneapolis, Minnesota is a big, Minnesota a big state. Minneapolis is, you know, fairly
big city, but it's really small when I feel like a lot of everybody knows each other here. And
we're all just trying to be better at you know, taking care of one another in the community. And
we all really understand that, you know, it's hard out here. So, you know, [incoherent] I think
the community does a really good job is for be, to be connected.
Is there a specific mosque that you go to here in Minneapolis?
Um, I go to usually at Augsburg, is where I pray usually. They’ve made a good space for us to
pray and allow us to practice our religion every Friday in the Gundale Chapel. We have Friday
prayers, led by [incoherent] and yeah it’s just great at Augsburg.
Yeah. Nice, nice and, I mean you said that you have good space but I know that space is usually
it's a pretty like multi-purpose space. Would you want to have like a more permanent space?
Yeah it's like… well I don't know it's like…I don't know… I would love of course like a little like
little mosque here you know but I feel like you know, sometimes I feel like you know my you
know, people of color sometimes don't… feel like they're asking too much you know. I really,
I'm really happy, like yeah, I really appreciate the space that we have now you know, but… I
have no problems with it. It's really a nice space. It has enough room for everyone and it's
beautiful, really scenic area. Where, an aesthetically pleasing area where like there's a lot of
light coming in and it’s really nice.
Yeah.
Another space would be nice of course, and like everybody, like why not? But I think what we
have now is good.
Before Hagfors was there, what space did you use before that?
We used to pray in the, is it the Hoversten Chapel? Yeah in this… at first we used to pray like I
remember we used to pray literally in the corner like behind the chapel in this little like weird
space by the door and then like I don't know I think one day, one day we like asked to pray like
in the middle in like the actual chapel and like we did but like I remember me and my friends
like, “yeah we're just gonna start praying here, it’s a lot better.” You know but I think we just
ended up going back to the area. I don't know why, but we ended up going back to that little
corner of the of the of the church. And I meant the chapel, and like that was it was a weird area
but I’m glad we got the one we have now, but, uh, yeah, so…
Um, how does religion come into play like with your family? Like, is it very, like important to
your family?
Yeah, religion is, is one of the biggest things. I think it has to be the biggest thing. I think, you
know, I just think that in my family, especially my family, like my dad, like, I'm [incoherent], I'm
trying to be like, my everyday like, you know, with religion, it's you have ups and downs, you
know, but like, you know, you always have to keep trying, of course, like when you were down,
like, just know that your ‘iimans, they’re called your ‘iimans, your faith will be like, you know,
back up again. So, it's something that I constantly work at. It's not something that can be
passive about, I think you have to be like, you know, active in, you know, praying and, you
know, thinking of God all the time, and knowing that God is everywhere. In my family especially
like my dad he– I remember whenever I used to be at home I live on campus now but when I
was at home he would wake me up every day at you know sometimes I'd wake up but mostly
my dad would wake me up, especially when I was a kid you know he’d wake me up every day at
four o'clock, five o'clock in the morning to pray the first prayer of the day and you know and
you always my dad, I think those, his lectures have been like etched in my brain. I think every
time I do something I think, “oh, what would my dad say?” Yeah, and I used to go to like a
Sunday school kind of thing. For, to learn the Quran like, my dad made emphasis do that
because his parents never took him to that. And like he really wish like he said, I wish my
parents took me to that. So he’s trying to like you know, he learned his learning from his past
and you know, trying to make you know us not have these regrets or whatever. So, religion
plays a big part in my life and my family's life, and it's something that I think it's, you know, it's
how I shape my religion, shape, shape how shaped my life. My life is based on in a sense, like
how my religion is, you know, like, I abstain from things because of my religion I do things
because of my religion. I try to be good person, one because I, you know, like I you know, I try
to be good person and then I, you know, I don't know, my religion is a big thing for me. My
head’s all over the place. I think I talk, whenever I talk, I think I like my, I think my brain is
thinking like 100 miles an hour and my mouth is trying to keep up with my brain so I get caught
up sometimes.
Right, right. Yeah. Um, do you have many friends who are you know, like, like American born
blacks result of the slave trade?
Yeah, um, I, I do, but not like many I feel like there, I feel like I really don't have the opportunity
to have too many African American friends. But like at the same time, by opportunity. I mean,
like, I'm trying to think. I don't know, I just feel like I just feel like there’s, I don't know why, but I
feel like maybe there aren't as much at Augsburg for some reason. There's not as much I feel
like, you know, once I got, you know, close to my Somali friends, of course, and people just kind
of stay in their own cliques, but I remember have, especially Minnesota, it's we're already you
know, hard to find to begin with, like, black people in general, you know, so like, Yeah, I do have
some, you know, but I'm not gonna lie. I wish I had more. And I, you know, it's honestly hard to
be like to find black, African American friends sometimes, I don't know why. Am I crazy?
No, you're not. You're definitely not. Okay. That's super like validating. I think about that all the
time. Like being at Augsburg specifically.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. There just aren't many here. Yeah.
Like I’m thinking, wow have I been just been isolating myself, like not like making attempts but
I'm thinking like, have there even been opportunities to make, you know, make a, you know,
have African and more African American friends? Like in Minneapolis like, I don't know. Maybe
it has to do with just how, like the history of, you know, African Americans within Minnesota. I
just went to the Historical Society, Historical Center the other day and I learned about the
Rondo community that was, you know, just destroyed basically because of the 94. I-94. Yeah,
it's like, crazy. I didn't know that. You know, it's like a whole community, gone. So like, stuff like
that. So the history of African Americans in Minnesota is different. And I know that history of
African Americans in Minnesota is a lot different than… it’s not a lot of different but it is
different than how new immigrants that have came from, you know, Africa or East Africa
wherever, you know Somalis. Sudanese, Ethiopians. I know that it's different. I just think it is
different because they're like, that institutionalized racism and systemic racism. It's been like,
around and has, and has, like, you know, plagued in a sense the African American, African
American community, like here, like much longer than it has our new communities, you know?
Right.
So, yeah, so maybe like, there could be there's probably some research about this. So that's
maybe reason why that's why maybe that some like aren't in like more you know university or
something like that. You know what I mean? Like, like that has to do with the system that
around it that's not having you know that happen. But I do have African American friends.
Um, like what those friends, is does like religion ever come up and is there ever like
conversations on that?
Not really.
No?
Not really it's just regular stuff.
Well no…
I really don't talk about religion really just like too much anyway. I just kind of keep it with
myself and you know I I'm a firm believer by I like people to live their own lives I and me I
already have like I'm already going through like my own like how can I advise somebody to do
something when it's hard for me to do it. So I know it's hard in general. I think that's what we
need to understand, like, you know, like, and if you want to talk about religion, whether like, I
don't know, I think when people do talk about religion, it's kind of giving people advice, or, hey,
don't do that. I feel like a lot of times, that's what it is. Hey don’t to that, you should do this. But
at the same time, you know, like, I think I just like people will do whatever they want to do on I
just don’t like telling people to do with their lives, you know, when I already am trying to figure
out what I want to do with my life.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, I mean, I guess you may not know this, but like, with your siblings, like, what is their
experience been like growing up here and like growing up with their black identity and like
navigating the world in that way?
Yeah, I think, I assume, it's hard. I know for my sisters because you know, it's kind of different
wearing hijab, you know, you don't have to wear hijab when you're that age, but sometimes
they want to, you know, they just want to put it on and go to school like that. So maybe just
know that at that young age, okay, there is some difference, apart from me being black, you
know, and I don't know, hope, hopefully they have some, you know, they can rely on me, my
other, my older siblings, me that I'm the oldest for me my you know, my two other brothers…
my youngest brother, my baby brother he’s the one that's one years old. But maybe rely on us
because I know it's especially hard for Muslim women um in you know predominately white
spaces institutions that exist all over the Minnesota especially in my area. So I hope that they're
comfortable in their skin and their religion. And I think it's going to take you know, some finding
yourself and I don't think this is part of life, you know, knowing who you are, you know,
developing this, you know, sense of, you know, greater of self worth and all this stuff. You
know, it's– they’re young, a lot of my siblings are young and I want them you know, just to go
through this journey as you know, as smooth as possible, of course, I just want to facilitate that,
you know, any way I can.
What are their ages?
Like my oldest younger sister is a junior in high school. And then after that's a big gap because
that one's in the sixth grade. Yeah, so um yeah, and then after that is she's in the first grade.
And then after her, my, that sister is in preschool. She’s doing some preschool, she's like she's
turning four in June. But yeah, they're all really young. So, you know, I just it's I nobody really
knows the answers to this stuff is kind of like, you know, what's the best way to parent like
nobody knows. Every it's every parent's first time parenting. You know what I mean? Like, for
my parents, I know it was their first time being a parent with me and still is, they're learning and
developing new things. So I think it just takes time and you know, eventually everything will be
alright. You know, so you just have to have a positive mentality. So, um, but I know it's hard.
I've been through it, you know, not knowing who you are, you know, not knowing like, you
know, how to define yourself and… yeah.
Would you say like that journey of, you know, like, I guess that we're all going through, of like,
trying to find yourself and like, figure out what you want to do and who you want to be? Do you
find that being Muslim really helps you, like helps ground you in that way and like helps you
figure that out?
Yeah. Um, yeah, I think Islam is a very is like it's a beautiful religion and it really helps you find
yourself like, you know, understand like, it's okay to be you, one, and like, that one that
everything will be okay too. So you don't really have like a big like, I don't know, I just like helps
you with a lot of ways. I’m trying to think like, I don't know, I just Islam has helped me, one, be
a better person really, I think. Be more self aware and kinder really and… I’m trying to like and I
haven't really thought about it. I think I’ve just been doing and not really thinking about it.
Right.
But it..but yeah, I think it’s, it's something that has really helped me in this journey. And it's still
helping me and I want to reiterate like it's, it's not something that you figure out after you
know, a month or whatever it's a process like every day you have to work at it, just like
anything, you know, being a good Muslim being a good person. And like again, like you're just
Islam is not only… it's helped me but again there has to be some push within myself and my
experiences like I see that one why I want to become a dentist is because I really want people
to be comfortable in their own skin and and just like be comfortable with themselves. Like
when growing up, I have had like, still I have fluorosis. It's like a staining in the sense of your
enamel like right here you can see it's like like a little bit yellower in my two front teeth but
that's kind of just it's a developmental problem due to the fluoride content in like the water
when I was growing up. And like that just, like enamel, it's healthy is nothing wrong there's
nothing, anything up with my teeth, it's just a different color and that you know for a while I
was just like, “Oh my God, why is, why is my teeth not white?” As you know the media says like
white, you have to have pearly white teeth and you know, like I was constantly like, “Oh my
God, there’s something wrong with me.” But really after you know, maybe, honestly not too
long ago I realize it's okay, like my teeth are fine, they're strong and healthy. And once I realized
that like you know I realized that, um, you know, it's okay like to be me, and this is me, and I'm
all right. But I want to go into dentistry and help people with that own like self image of
themselves, because maybe it's difficult to, you know, go through the whole process of first
people should love themselves regardless, but I know that maybe somebody wants to fix their
teeth, if they have really crooked teeth, for example, and it's hard for them to eat or whatever.
If you can fix that, that's not only going to help them with their health, that's going to help them
with their self confidence, and that's going to help them in life really, like if you can move
through life more confidently, you're open to so many more opportunities and look at life really
differently. So like that's really changing somebody's entire life. So why not do that for people
within my community who don't even have, like, you know, sometimes opportunity to health
care, that's why I want to do community dentistry and that's something I want to do. Like
that's, that has, Islam is not… it helped me to some part. But it also like my me going through
my life has helped me develop, like what I want to do in the future to, you know, like there's
like God can only like give you… God gives you so much but you know it's up to you to you know
go out and get it, you know? So I think that was an example I took I took Islam with Maheen too
and I think he used… it's a common thing but he said that you can tie, you can tie, what… it’s
something about a camel you can… what is it? Like you can tie your… you can have a camel and
then not tie the rope or something and say, “God will keep this camel here.” But it's also good
to tie the rope so the camel doesn't move you know or something. Like you know, God is there
but you know, like, make sure you're doing like you know putting yourself in a good position to
succeed too.
That is a good analogy. I get it, I get it. Um, so I guess kind of bouncing around because yeah my
mind is like this as well. Yeah, um like how involved in like politics are you and like are you
involved in any groups like have you been to any like Black Lives Matter matches? Are you part
of PASU you know like…
Yeah um, I've been part of like MSA and I'm part of PASU like, like in and out not really part of
PASU because I feel like I've been I used to be part of MSA and I was treasure last year. And
then like, I also I remember through marches like I remember like when Donald Trump was
being elected and like, you know, the murder of Philando Castille I remember I was going to I
went to marches with some of my friends and protests and I remember, you know, we're doing
a lot of, you know, activism. And I know that was a big thing for me for a while, and I knew it
was not right. And I knew like, I just can't accept this. So I'll have to do something about it. And
even to this day, like I'm, I'm the program manager of something called YMCs, called the Young
Muslim Collective and right we really try to change like, you know, influence social change
within our communities, and help, whatever like the community needs of us. So right now
we're doing mentoring. And we're also trying to do maybe some, like clothing drive we did
before. Hygiene drives, like things that the community needs. We're just trying to, like, help do
that. So mentoring is a big thing for us right now. We're trying to partner with some schools in
Minneapolis to just do some maybe summer, like summer program, like because I know the
summers and things get, you know, dangerous and kids are really idle. So maybe having good
role models like it's really important because having role models that like you know, are in
school and like are doing something is really good for young kids to see. Especially how the
media portrays black faces is it's it's something you get to see like, within our own community
like this is possible. So that's what we're doing. And also like I work with these, this group, this
nonprofit called Somali American Youth Enrichment Club. And we do, we do… It’s mostly a
soccer club, but we're focused on doing homework help before the kids come and play soccer.
So that's what we're doing, it’s in St. Paul. It's at a place called [incoherent] Academy and they
do really good work there. So that's something I've been doing and I think I just want to keep
doing that for a while. And just kind of do things that… I'm also like on the board of my
neighborhood council, Linden Hills neighborhood council and like, I've learned so much in these
since like I got elected back in like October, but since then I’ve been learning so much and I
really thank people on the board for you know teaching me and just you know allowing me,
allowing me to be myself and including me in decisions making me feel welcome it's been just a
great experience. So I'm just kind of hoping to grow and experiences because I'm so young I
think and there's so much to do so much to see like I feel like you know, hopefully I keep this
optimism as I'm moving forward and this you know, this youthfulness of myself like that I have
like hope that something that can keep driving me and I think it can for a while. So..
Um just a couple more questions. Okay. Bouncing back into growing up, and like growing up
here and like especially going to a predominantly white High School, like how has your like
childhood been here and how have you like navigated those kind of spaces too?
Yeah, like, for a while, like, I just didn't really think too much about it. I just kind of, it's like,
whatever, we’re all just different. But then I realized, like, it's like, I think, you know, just maybe
having to assimilate more than, you know, I should have because I feel like assimilate like you
know, because I was obviously the minority culture there so there's not only white culture
there’s also American culture, but I'm from a place where there's Somali culture and then
there's Muslim culture. Not culture, but there are things as Muslim I have to do and have to you
know, so like, growing up like that was very difficult because none of that was something I saw
on a daily basis within my friends or at school. So it's hard to, you know, like, hard to you know,
differentiate between, differentiate between the two because it's so much easier just, you
know, go into the dominant culture and just become just like them because who wants to be
left out or feel different. So, that was something that I wish didn't happen, you know, but I
think coming back to Augsburg and finding out back to who I was and who I want to be
something that I really am thankful for, but I think like, it became more prominent in high
school when like, you could really see the difference between how I’m supposed to be and like
how, you know, things are because, like, you know, drinking culture becomes a thing and like,
you’re Muslim and you can drink, you know, and like, and like, people are going to parties, and
it's like, hey, like, you don't do that. It's like, you know, it's like, you start feeling differently,
okay, where can I go where I don't feel different anymore. You know, when I found people who
are, you know, very similar to myself, it's like, I can, you know, be myself I don't feel different. I
feel like I'm normal with everybody around here. But that doesn't mean like, I don't like enjoy,
like then, as I keep growing see, like, this is growth like as I'm growing and becoming an adult, I
see that it's okay. Like I can do both like even though I like, you know, I having my friends who
like me it's I also have a lot of friends who aren't Muslim or, you know, Somali. And I'm growing,
like, every day knowing that I can it's okay like I can differentiate, differentiate between the
two. It's I know people can do that, but I can do this, I can just be myself. It's fine. I'm
comfortable like this. Yeah, so that's how I've kind of navigated through my life so far.
And like, seeing those differences of, you know, of like, American culture in general, you know,
not like not drinking and like not doing those kinds of things within like, I use this term, broadly
like black culture. It’s so different everywhere. Yeah. But do you ever feel a disconnect from
that because of it?
Like, I guess I don’t know, it's the same thing though kind of, you know, it's like, but like people
don't really understand this is like, there’s when you when you start to say that, you know
African American culture is you know totally black culture like I you know like I don't know like
that you know and people can argue like you know, that is black culture but at the same time
like I don't know if I'm thinking that you can't just say oh and like the people Africa that's
African culture, but do you know how many countries are there are in African how many people
speak different religion I would speak speak different languages and how many different
religions there are and like, how so different people are in Africa like that, like, what is that?
That is not black culture too? Is that just this specific culture, like, you know, like, you could say,
it's like, you can't really put this whole thing in a box and say, you know black culture is, it's
becoming American culture, like pop culture because black people influence so many things
around the globe that yet people don't want to acknowledge that you know it's like we from
social media which black people control you know, like you know, a little like you know what is
it from mannerisms to like new words, slang like everyone like and people are making money
from this kind of stuff and it’s like black Twitter controls, you know, like we created this is our
stuff that just people think it's cool you know, just taking blackness and removing it from black
people. That's what people want sometimes, you know, so… But for me, I just think that it's you
know, acknowledging like there is difference, but if you're suspecting it, like you know, for I like,
like Somali people for example, or Muslim, Muslims or whatever they may be in their culture
because there's some things that are Islam and there's some things that are Islamicade, I think
that I learned that it's like the culture behind it that influences the religion. But the culture
aspect and with that America like, you know, some Muslims in America have whether it be Arab
culture and with different culture there exists within like Arab nations and black culture it’s just
like just difference in culture. It's literally like, like, or for me, like, I'm black. But you know, I
don't I'm not like I'm also i'm not even African American. But like, again, like I'm SomaliAmerican. So there's a difference acknowledge that, hey, there's a difference. And I respect
that difference. It’s like you don't have to, you know, to go into that culture, you can do
whatever you want too, but like at the same time that you acknowledging that there's a
difference between Somali culture and African American culture, that's what I think and like,
kind of respecting those differences at the same time. That's not saying that those cultures
cannot like you know intertwine or whatever, like people can do whatever they want, like I can,
you know, even if I wanted to I could abandon my Somali culture and you know, going to
different like you know culture, not culture but just like do different things that resemble that
are not in quote on quote Somali culture, but at the same time it just kind of like people do
what they want and like, these things are there, it's not saying one is better than the other, just
that that's what they are. You know, I feel like that erasure that a lot of like, immigrant families
have I think it's a clash because a lot of parents come in and they have this whole mindset and
that they have these beliefs and these cultural beliefs, whether it be whatever and then they
come to America [incoherent] their children's are acting a lot different than..out there acting
like oh my God, why, you know, becoming so different Americans, whatever, that's total
disconnect between the parents and the children that people have. And that's where this
conversation becomes like, you know, that's the them and us like very strict, you know, and
like, being able to, like, you know, you know, acknowledge it and like, you know, respect it is
one thing you know, but same time understanding that, you know, you're from this other thing
it’s cool too you know, like understanding. But you can know both, you know, I don't know. if,
that makes sense.
I get what you're saying. And yeah, I mean, and it sounds like you are like very comfortable like
having these like, different identities of yourself.
Yeah.
And like, overlapping them, like with Muslim culture and black culture and Somali culture and
all those things and like, that just makes you, you.
Yeah.
Um, but do like any of your other friends or like do your siblings struggle with having all those
different identities and being comfortable with that?
You know, my siblings, I like to, I think they're so like, my siblings are so smart and they're just
so like, you know, free and you know, I don't know how they feel about that. I hope they’re… I
can see that they're dealing with it in a very way that's comfortable for themselves. And, you
know, I try to talk to them and see if everything's all right. So in the future, maybe like, I’ll ask
them, even more about that, you know, just trying to figure that out. But yeah, I think they're
doing a good job handling that and but overall, I think people kind of kind of, like, the hard thing
is when you mix culture, religion and like, at the same time, you can be a part of for me, like I
can be I can do whatever I want, and do things at different part of different cultures. And like,
you know, whether it be American culture, whatever, but at the same time, as long as it doesn't
like, you know, go against my religion. That's what it is. Yeah.
And do you see your friends like, very similar to you in that way?
Yeah, I think my friends are very similar I think that usually people like to surround themselves
with people who are like very similar to themselves, you know, right.
Right, right. Well, that's good. I'm just a couple more questions just like out of curiosity, like
how do you feel about the use of the n-word in the black community? Or within like, African
immigrant community?
Aw man…
Not to get controversial.
Okay, well, like I just think that. I don't know. Like, I think it's something that a lot of people on
social media, especially, you know, Twitter have, like debated about forever, you know, and I
think that, you know, I use, I use the N word, and I think that it's something that, like that word
one, has been reclaimed by the black community. And I don't think, you know, I just think that
it's something that has like been it wasn't just for African American people I feel I feel like it was
for black people you know it’s aimed at Black people you know like and I'm out here if I'm
saying like me and African American friend of mine you know or even a Liberian friend like you
know my friend BK or anybody you know like or Somali friend so we could go out and
somebody can call us the n-word because they don't know we’re Somali they don't know
anything or Muslim they just see we’re black so you know, I just think that alienating people
from the something like something that I don't think is even a big deal like that it's like why
have these things why why further separate us from each other you know, I think it's something
that's kind of bring us together you know, and we can fight people who are saying it like, you
know, white people and like you know, other people who are not black saying it all the time
willy nilly that I see like at parties or whatever, like like where maybe I see like not parties like I
don't really go to parties but I see like on twitter i people are always fighting like, like I don't
know they say like, you know some songs have the n-word so why can’t I sing the song? If it's
like at a if I can’t say the n-word if it's in the song? It’s just a song I don't mean it, but it's like still
like if somebody is not comfortable with you using the word, why do you want to use the word?
It's a word, it's a word that like, why would you want to use it? For what reason?
No, literally. That was a good answer, I totally agree too. Like is there anything else that I like
didn't ask that like you've been itching to say?
Um… not really I think we talked about a lot of stuff. But I just think we all are all going I don't
know we're all going through this world just like so new, and we don't know what's going on
and think, how old are you? Like 20?
21
21. Okay I’m 21 too, and just like you know maneuvering through this world, I just think we all
should be like, you know, this is so cliche, but you know, honestly very kind and just kind of
respectable about each other because especially like other people of color, because we're going
through, like a lot, you know, and that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful to other
people like of not color but I'm saying like, it's, you know, especially hard, especially in spaces
where you're not the majority, and you feel different all the time. So I just feel like we should all
be better people to each other, you know, and that's something that, you know, we can all do
on micro scales, like we often we can do that by doing little things and it's not these big grand
gestures of, you know, acceptance or whatever that usually like, you know, that are going to do
the most work. I feel like little things add up and make really big difference, you know, so, I
thank you for your time and you’re doing some really important stuff.
Thank you. Um, do you have any questions for me about like, what I asked, anything like that
how it’s going to be used, anything?
Yeah. What's like so what's so after this it's going to go like, is you're going to give it to your
professor something like what is he gonna do?
Yeah, after this, I'm going to like transcribe it and so like write everything out that you said. And
basically like, write a paper about it and like about the topic in general and basically use you as
quotes.
Wow.
I give a presentation, basically, like taking quotes of what you said and presenting it to the class.
All right.
It’s kinda cool!
Yeah, that’s cool. That’s cool.
You had a lot of good things to say too. So. I think I have I have a lot to use.
Okay. I’m glad I could be of some help.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript from Oral History “A Muslim in the Military from Minnesota”
Interviewee: Anthony James
Interviewer: Tyler Caldwell
Date: April 12, 2019
Tyler: You can start off with your name, date of birth, and like where you are from.
Anthony: Perfect. I'm starting now? My name is Anthony Jame... Show more
Transcript from Oral History “A Muslim in the Military from Minnesota”
Interviewee: Anthony James
Interviewer: Tyler Caldwell
Date: April 12, 2019
Tyler: You can start off with your name, date of birth, and like where you are from.
Anthony: Perfect. I'm starting now? My name is Anthony James. I was born February 9, 1994,
I’m 25 years old. I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Been here for most of my life,
practically all of it, except for when I travel for the military. But that's about it.
Tyler: And then what inspired you to join the military? Or when did you join?
Anthony: I joined…So I'll start with the first part of that question. What inspired me to join was,
I didn't know what I really want to do after high school. So I was like, well, and it's ironic that
the army I picked was just because they're the first ones who got to my high school, because
either going to be the Marines or the Army, but my school is pushing the army so they let them
in first before they let the Marines in. So that’s how I joined the Army. I was 17 so my mom
actually signed the paperwork for me to get in. And then what inspired me outside of that, really,
I didn't have any inspirations. So I joined 2011 of July, July 2011. That summer and then I was
in their little I don’t remember what the program's called maybe you do. Do you remember when
you get in and before you leave, you're in like a program that like suppose it was will train you
on stuff like, like army knowledge programs. I don’t remember what it was called. Yeah, so I
was doing that for basically almost like a year and so I left for basic and stuff.
Tyler: The delayed entry program?
Anthony: There we go. I was in delayed entry. So did that for almost a year until I graduated, and
then went straight to basic and Fort Benning, Georgia.
Tyler: Right. So yeah, kind of based on when you join the military. Did you look up to
somebody that was in the military Did you know anybody who's in the military?
Anthony: My older brother he was in the army but I really didn't really care because he didn't do
anything cool. And then I had like grandparents who are also in the military but I kind of didn't
more from myself and really look up to anyone. I guess part of it was more like I want to be
better than them all I picked this tough job I did this thing so that was kind of my logic at you
know, 17.
Tyler: Did your family members support your decision join the military or do you have any
Muslim friends? What was their reaction to you joining?
Anthony: At the time when I joined I wasn't Muslim I was, I guess you could say a nondenominational by went to a Catholic High School and my whole family's Christian. So actually
instead of having friends are Muslim I don't really have any and didn’t know any. But my family
was saying oh, we support you but you're going to kind of regret it and also my mom she signed
the paperwork for me to go, so if it wasn't for her, I wouldn’t have been able to go at the time.
So, I did have support they just told me be careful what you ask for.
Tyler: Alright, so now let's go to basic training. So any notable events in basic training? When
did you go first off?
Anthony: I went, let’s see here, I left June of 2012, like June 28. But I didn't start…I flew into
Fort Benning and I didn’t start until after the Fourth of July but I wouldn’t say any other notable
events. I mean nothing outside of the crazy stuff that we have that goes on like a daily basis there
wasn't anything. I guess racially outside of religion…I know its really about religion but racial.
We had a white soldier make a noose and do it on a black soldiers bunk and try saying it was like
was just a joke and stuff so we had all this racial tension for a while.
Tyler: That was in basic training?
Anthony: Yeah, that was in basic.
Tyler: Here’s just some straight up answers. What MOS did you have?
Anthony: 11 Bravo Infantry.
Tyler: And what rank did you achieve?
Anthony: E-4 is what I got out in, but they offer, you know “If you extend will get you your
five” And I’m like okay. (sarcasm)
Tyler: Now, do you remember were you exploring Islam at this time? Or it was it later in your
military career?
Anthony: It was later my military career at the time I was trying to go to the…because you
remember how (basic training) had Sundays they'll offer you to go all to these are all different…
these different services? So Sunday, I was I man, which one could I try and get some sleep in?
So I'll go to the Buddhist one, because I just let you sit there and meditate, so I would go there to
sleep. But I would say it was more later my military career that I started pursuing Islam and then
seeing how the army doesn't really…once you're out of basic the army doesn't cater to Muslims
whatsoever.
Tyler: Did you meet any other Muslims in the military?
Anthony: I did, I met quite a few just because of being in Minnesota, you me a lot of East
African Muslims. So that was kind of like my experience was meeting them and being friends
with them. And then having like, some experiences where there wouldn't be anywhere for us to
pray. There wouldn't be anywhere for…there's only like a chaplain who like basically like, you
know, a Christian chaplain, they have the cross on their uniform and stuff. So you wouldn't have
an imam and you wouldn't really have your own area to go pray. But the only prayer they would
really, I mean, the chaplains would offer, you know, other things will always predominantly for
Christian background. And I know that's only because Minnesota maybe, in units predominant
Christian may might have changed if you go to different states, but as far as I know, at least in
Minnesota, and then in Georgia, as well was predominantly Christian.
Tyler: So that was throughout your whole tenure in the military?
Anthony: Yeah, throughout my whole tenure there.
Tyler: You never saw like a Muslim chaplain?
Anthony: I mean, only in basic, but once you got outside, it was mainly Christian. Because in
basic, you know, they have, you know, how many thousands of people there at one time, but
when you start to get in to individualized units, you know, it's only like a Christian chaplain I've
seen. I mean, they'll offer you to pray or whatever and, you know, whatever, they'll get you like a
room to pray in. So, the chaplain will try and do their best to accommodate but there was nothing
that was already set in place for like Muslim soldiers. So, a lot of times I wouldn't see Muslims
soldiers pray. It was kind of like on Sunday, they say like, Oh, you want to go to prayer? You
know, they have Bibles and everything. And it would be mainly for like Christian soldiers. Yeah,
but then like the food-wise. So you know, here at Augsburg, they offer you different options like
turkey sausage, or, you know, turkey bacon, right? In the army it’s, you know, “you only get the
regular sausage if you get it!”. So there wasn't like any other extra options. So it's kind of like
either you eat the food or you don't eat it.
Tyler: So it’s kind of like basic training would you say?
Anthony: Yeah, well, even when you are in your unit and there wouldn't be much options you
get the little whatever the cooks making, then that's it. either you eat it or you don't.
Tyler: Then grooming standards. I mean, if that played any role, was there anything?
Anthony: Not that I ever noticed, we all shaved our facial hair, even if we didn't want to. Or do
push-ups. But I've never, on my part myself, never experienced anything like that. Or the soldiers
I came in contact with, which I'll say only ones I contacted they never faced any discrimination
based on facial grooming.
Tyler: So just a general question. Was there anything that made it especially difficult to be in the
military as a Muslim?
Anthony: I would say the lack of knowledge of Islam and kind of like the like the hate that was
like, so my unit before I even got there, they deployed quite a few times. And then we got there
we did our stuff or deployments and you know, went over once to Kuwait. But I would say it
was difficult because you have this were like, “Oh they're the bad guys”. You're fighting in
Muslim countries, right? So they're bad guys, there was always like resentment towards
Muslims, not by being like a general but like, because you're there. And that's who your enemy
is, like, you just start hating them. I guess that's a good way to put it. It's like a bred contempt
that you would like do that things you would say like you would…actually, I'll give you a better
example. So we're doing JRTC, you know what JRTC is? So basically JRTC is
Tyler: Like a field exercise?
Anthony: Yes a field exercise that you do before you deploy. And what you do is you go down
the Fort Polk, Louisiana, awful place. You go to Fort Polk, Louisiana, and you do a joint training
with the Air Force with, you know, other army brigades. And it's like, a giant show, right. And
so you would do scenarios that you'd see in the Middle East, like you'd have to go room clearing,
you would have to go into mosques, you know, and so we will get told don't shoot at the
mosques but then you'll see soldiers shooting at the mosque, or they will purposely put people on
the mosque to make us shoot at them and it’s kind of like, and that kind of, I believe, bred, this
willingness to go after places of worship. And I mean, we've never done a training exercise
where we went into like a church or to a synagogue, it was always mosques, which I'm
understanding most of our wars that we fight have been in Muslim countries. But it's kind of
hard when you start seeing that the only place that you target is only mosques and that your
enemies are only Muslims really. So it kind of creates this, like, “I don’t want to kill people like
me, but it's like these people that you're with…they're all you got. So I know for me, that was
kind of hard trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And you know, just seeing how
the training progressively was always focused on Muslims and I'm at one time in JRTC, we had
to attack the mosque and so the rules were supposedly you can’t attack the mosque because that
where civilians are going to be well, we got told well, “there's a there's a gunman on the roof, we
gotta go clear it”. So you know, we have to stack on the door, kick it in there. Their like, “be
careful” like “civilians”. You know, how like you have your trainers there, they would be mock
civilians and stuff. So it was just a mess of it all. So it creates like an inner conflict. Because you
know, that place is sacred, let's say you gotta do your job. So it doesn't matter what sacred things
take precedence.
Tyler: At this time did other soldiers know you were Muslim?
Anthony: Some of them. More of the ones that are like in my fire team, and then within my
platoon, so maybe my platoon knew but not there wasn't really…I'll say my company knew but,
in the battalion, no, not really.
Tyler: Did they react like any differently around you? Like, during these exercises, maybe or?
Anthony: No, they didn't care because I was, I'll go with them and do whatever I need to do. I'm
not gonna let that stop me. I remember what was at one time, we had just got done with like the
field training. And we just came back to like, the barracks and stuff about to eat. And all they had
was like pork options. I'm like, Man, I'm going to eat because I haven't eaten in like, almost all
day and stuff because we went out to the field for a couple of days. And I had just finished off
my little MRE and I'm like, Man, I'm starving. So like, if I eat…because we're going to go right
back out to the field in the morning. So I like, I was like forced to eat like pork products because
I'm like, there's not enough for me to eat right? They don't they offer only offer pork chops and
like potatoes and potatoes are a little bit you know, they don’t give you extra. So it's like, I'm
gonna go out and do this again and be able to function I got eat this. So that's kind of my friend
was like, Oh, I know. He was joking. And we both laughed always like, “Oh, I know you I could
trust you.” I was like, why that he was like, “you're Muslim. You eat pork and all this other stuff,
he was like, anyone who eats bacon is a good guy in my eyes”. I'm like, alright man. (sarcasm)
Tyler: So, any events, I guess, do you remember like when Trump proposed, like IDing
Muslims?
I did. And when he did the travel ban, I thought it was f*****g stupid. We never really talked
about it in the army. It was just one of those things where we didn’t care. We just had other
things that were more…because I think at that time was when we were getting ready for our
deployment to Egypt around that time and stuff. So we weren't really concerned about that.
So…let me give a timeline. So Kuwait was in 2012 or 2013 and Egypt was, what was that, was
like ‘16 I believe…it was either ‘15 to ‘16 or ‘16 to ‘17.
Tyler: Egypt?
Anthony: Yeah. So we went to the Sinai for like this like peacekeeping mission…it was a joke
you just sit there in the sand for nine months and you don’t even get like, it gets taxed it's
because it’s not considered like a combat deployment so you get taxed on it and everything was
just trash. So at that time, I think it was about ‘16-‘17 because that's when Trump was probably
proposing that travel ban stuff so that's when when that was going on we weren't really worried
about it in the army and I really care I just thought it was kind of stupid.
Tyler: So, I was telling you this statistics about like Muslims in the United States compared to in
the military for why do you think that is? Or do you think do you think there are Muslims in the
military like hide their, like don't write it on their dog tags on purpose?
Anthony: I can see it I don't know anyone who hid it but I understand why the fear of depending
on like the unit you're in…maybe if it's all white or if it's you know, one denomination that you
won't be accepted or you don’t want the other guys to think they can’t trust you or you know,
because of religious beliefs are you just not inclined to want to join the military amazed because
you're predominantly fighting and Muslim countries that you like, why would I want to go fight
you know, people who believe the same thing I believe in? (Paused at 15:15) So I can see why
but from what I seen, and from what I know, from the individuals I spoke to who were Muslim
they had on their dog tags they were practicing but only outside the army…and the army you
didn't bring your religion in…you know like the army says don't talk about religion or politics or
race. You know, we are all green and you know, just a whole little “all for one, one for all” type
of thing.
Tyler: Is there anything else like you want to add about being Muslim in the military? Were there
any other difficulties or was overall, was the army accepting what you believed?
Anthony: I think it was more than me just didn't care, you know, as long as you didn't do
anything that would affect morale or didn't do anything that would cause a disturbance the army
really didn't care what you believed in. And you know, just because we're like, they say like, we
never really talked about religion, we just talked about other things. Those just you know, kind
of always pushed aside and not worried about and then like I said, like the army doesn't
accommodate, doesn't offer extra things. And now why is that? Who knows, but the cooks only
make one certain type of food and I'm only speaking from being in Georgia and then in
Minnesota, so maybe if you were somewhere else in the country that'd be larger Muslims in a
unit and it might be different but from what I've seen that it's a low number like you said by the
numbers that is such a low amount of Muslims who are out in the open about it but I mean that's
kind of really it that I got on it wasn't really much of any other struggles outside of that. I mean,
the army just sucked sometimes. We just had to deal with it.
Tyler: Alright, so overall your entire experience in the military you would say as a Muslim it was
positive?
Anthony: No my overall experience in the army was over I was just. It was trash it sucked. You
know the stuff that you have to go through the stuff that you can't unsee sometimes, the training
that we got, I remember we were told we would have to be willing to kill kids if they had guns
that we they wanted shooters not people are going to hesitate so getting trained like, all not
directly obviously, know the targets will never be like children but being told on the side like we
need you to be able to kill kids because this is what can happen, you know? So you will have to
deal with that or you know going away from family for so long like you know being in Germany
for three years and, your family and you get used to it we know still take, you know still sucks
and then if you feel like there's no options for you religiously, it didn't bother me too much. By I
know for others it really did that they couldn’t practice the way they wanted to. There's not really
a time for you to try and go and pray five times a day especially depending on what you got
going. If you're in the field all day you're not going to go off and you know pray and there's you
know, or even if you're back in the barracks, there's always something for you to do. “why are
you doing that go clean your weapon” or “go get ready or go…” you know whatever when you
have your downtime you just want to rest and sleep so it's just really hard to find time to practice
yourself. And I mean that's for a lot of religions not just Muslims. The army doesn't really allow
for religion to really prosper which I can understand why you don't want to cause issues within a
unit but I mean it does care to Christian soldiers so…actually a prime example, it was ever on
like on Good Friday or something you know, they might remove whatever might be for
Catholics…so I've seen that before but never for Muslims. Nor Ramadan did, like “no you gotta
eat and drink”. They would, for sure, force us to drink water. I drank it because I know I would
get heat stroke and die but for others who said like “oh, we've done this before we don't want to”
they're like look if you don't then they make like a big issue about it but there are coming from a
safety concern, and they're more for religious so it was something that the unit had to try and
work out that I knew for sure happen especially when we were Louisiana. It was just so hot. And
they're like this is like a medical hazard, if you don't do this. So that was probably a big…and so
that's actually a big issue I saw was probably when we were in Louisiana and someone doesn’t
want to be told “we’re fasting” and “we don't want to drink water” and they were like no “we
need to drink water or you can't be out there because you're liable to like get heat stroke and die”
so they basically like…they just kept them out of the field sometimes so that they could do what
they need to do. But that was about it.
Tyler: So like so other Muslims that would join the military…is there any advice you would give
them before they join?
Anthony: I would let anyone who joins the military, not just Muslims, understand that it's not a
place that you will feel welcome, as a Muslim, to get experience. you'll find people who are
staying lifelong friends but just understand that it's not going to be what you might think it is and
that's something that no recruiter ever bring up you know you never hear about religion brought
up in the military even when you do like briefs, religious tolerance isn't ever talked about. it's
more about sexual harassment, rape, and then like equal opportunity for soldiers who are
homosexual. But religious was always left out of the briefs. Actually I can't think of one brief
and I've been to a lot. If they ever had religion in it. Do you remember any? I don't remember
one religious brief.
Tyler: I think we had some chaplains, like, give briefs. But I can think of any specifically.
Anthony: Mainly when we had chaplains it was about suicide prevention. So you can come talk
to us. But that was about it. I'll just tell them like, hey, just be ready for whatever it is, most times
it’s not going to be welcoming. It's gonna be kind of like shh and hidden. You don't talk about it.
You don't think about it.
Tyler: Interesting. When you say this…would you guess this is like infantry units especially?
Anthony: I've never I've never been outside of an infantry unit before…so I have honestly no
idea maybe but…honestly that's a good question.
Tyler: Would you say then religion in general is really difficult?
Anthony: Yeah, I know for sure. Religion general would be something that's not talked about in
the military. But we may because of like our little culture that we have of, you know, but I can't
think of any time that I've seen anything else but have a Christian chaplain know even when I
basically had all different MOSs or when we were and…you've been to Camp Ripley, right? Or
no?
Tyler: I have not.
Anthony: Okay. So whenever there's like, whenever it's a weekend we went up there we would
have like different units. I've never seen like a imam, not least I can recognize. There were
always those chaplains with the crosses on so…
Tyler: Do you know would you have access to one if you needed it?
Anthony: If I asked, I know they will probably find one for me. But it wouldn't, it wouldn't be
something that'd be right away. Especially if you're back at your unit, you would have to wait
probably a couple hours, maybe a day or maybe you'd have to wait till next drill to meet with
one. I never asked I shouldn't say for sure. I just know there wasn't one in our building. Right.
But if you're probably on like a larger military installation, you could probably get access to one.
But that's if you're there. So maybe for active duty it is probably easier I should say. Active duty
is going to be easier. In the Reserves/National Guard I would say no. Because a lot smaller.
Tyler: All right. So were you ever in garrison, like in a unit that is not about to be deployed? So
like in the United States and just…
Anthony: Like just stationed somewhere? Yeah, Fort Benning, Fort Polk, and that's it really,
Tyler: And you had no access to an imam or anything?
Anthony: We would, I never asked for one. At Fort Benning I wasn't really practicing because
that's when I first got in and stuff. And in Fort Polk I was more of wasn't really thinking about it
was because I hated there so much. My mind was just everywhere else. So I didn't really care too
much to really search. It's more when you get back home, like when you’re back in like your
regular drill. Whatever you want to call, armory, that you might want to do your own prayer
service. But even then, like when you're in garrison, or when you're going on how to do this
training for however long it is, you know, I never really worried about it and then…when I was
in Fort Benning, I wasn't a Muslim at the time. Because that was so early in. So that was about it.
Tyler: So in garrison, like things like Ramadan and stuff. Was that more lenient would you say?
Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, then you could do it because then you have like a, you'd be done at you
know, five o'clock or whenever your shift would be over. So then you'd be able to go do it or if
you don't really have much going on, they don't really care what you did. But that’s more…I
guess. Yeah. So when you're more in garrison, you just relaxing you have more time but then
when you go into your training and when you have to be consistently moving that’s when you
really don't have the opportunity to do that. Garrison's different.
Tyler: All right, then I do not think I have any more questions. You have anything else?
Anthony: I do not but thank you for choosing me.
…
Tyler: So I shall ask the question again…so like you're Muslim friends now like how do they…
How do they respond to know that you fought in like Afghanistan and Iraq?
Anthony: We never talk about it really. It's not something that gets brought up. We just…and I
only have very few Muslim friends that I stay in contact with that were also in the military with,
one who was a marine, others who are in the army, but we really don't talk about it much. There
isn’t much to say. and people who I know that I'm Muslim that didn’t serve we never really
talked about is asking like, “Oh did you deploy” and I’m like yeah I went to Kuwait and Iraq and
stuff like that when we do our convoys in and out but outside of that, I don't like talking about it
with them. And then like they don't understand. So, it's kind of like you tell him, “man that stuff,
I didn’t really want to be there. Then they’ll be like “what didn’t you sign up for that?” (laugh)
No, it's not the point, you don't sign up to go do that stuff. So that's all.
Show less
H: So to start off, um, could you say and spell your full name?
I: My full name is Ikram Mohamud. Um, Ikram is my first name, so that's i-k-r-a-m. And then
Mohamud: m-o-h-a-m-u-d.
H: And your birth date?
I: May 15th of 1997.
H: Um, and then I guess, um, my first question is just general. ... Show more
H: So to start off, um, could you say and spell your full name?
I: My full name is Ikram Mohamud. Um, Ikram is my first name, so that's i-k-r-a-m. And then
Mohamud: m-o-h-a-m-u-d.
H: And your birth date?
I: May 15th of 1997.
H: Um, and then I guess, um, my first question is just general. Tell me about your family.
What--what are they like?
I: Okay, I'll be frank, I guess in general context... I'm not sure if it will count for later, but,
um, so it’s--my family consists of my mother and father and my sister, so my immediate,
um, family, and I mean, they’re… you know, I mean, they have cultural things and like, we
came to America in like 2003, July-ish, at some point. So you know they’ve been here for,
like, 17 years, but they’re still obviously, like, determined to stick with, like, um, their
Somali roots, and then my sister and I are like relatively Americanized, so that can be hard
to navigate in certain circumstances, where, like, for the most part, they’re kind of like any
other set of parents, you know, there are disagreements, things you agree with, and then,
my sister and I are very--like, my sister and I are very similar so it’s always interesting to
navigate things, and whether you, like, go to mom or go to dad. But yeah, my family's, like,
we're all pretty close and just have seen, like, the struggle that they've had to endure kind
of to get us to keep us here and to keep us here. So, I feel like, certain things like that, you
know, bonds you and like, makes you a stronger family.
H: Um, what made you want to you go into school for business? And you know, like, what
do you want to do with your life?
I: That’s a hard question. Um, but for like, context, my dad used to own, like, his own
business. And like, he's always kind of been like an entrepreneur and like, always wanted
to, like, be his own boss and do his own thing. And like, watching that, and like, even just,
like, growing up, like, the notion of budgets and, like, certain things have always been
interesting, and kind of what makes the world go round and, like, coming to Hamline, like, it
was really easy for me to be like, yeah, I'm gonna be a business major. And at that point, I
wasn't sure which aspect of business I necessarily wanted. But I also like took on, um, like,
leadership roles on campus and I have in high school, and like, being able to, like make
people and help people and do certain things, and like, the notion of like teamwork and
collaboration, really help me be, like, I can see myself doing this long term. But as of right
now, like, career-path-wise, I will be meeting, like, youth in different programs that I'm
working with, but like, not necessarily in like a business standpoint of, like, for profit of,
like, how you know what, I mean? Of, like, how can we hit the profit margin on this? But I
think it applies more in the context of like, I understand how to navigate--I understand how
to navigate, like, those certain, certain circumstances and I feel like those transferable skills
can kind of be applied to any capacity too.
H: What was the business that your father ran?
I: Oh, sorry, yes, context helps. Um, he owned his, um, own automotive shop with a friend of
his. So just like fixing cars, and just like, helping people to do something. Like, like I said, the
notion of like being his own boss and getting to do his own thing was, like, a huge thing for
him, but then obviously, like, he had to do that behind a computer, so like...
H: Um, what has your experience been in business school?
I: Business school? Um, a lot of, like, what we learned, just so like academically, it's very,
like, very well rounded. So like, you take finance classes, you take econ classes, you take
business analytics, so you take a lot of different foundations of management, just certain
things; marketing to show you kind of like the atmosphere of business and what it means.
And then obviously, as you dive deeper, you get to take more of the concentrated classes in
what you have. But like, it's been kind of hard because if you really, I guess, a lot of people
go into business, and like, White men, and like obviously, I’m not saying from here that
there's like something wrong with White men, but like it’s really hard to navigate, like,
certain spaces when women do have, like, different identity markers and different
experiences and you have so many different things, like, that are a part of you that
necessarily aren’t a part of other people. So at certain times when we talk about a fix in
certain cases, and certain things come up, and it can be really hard to navigate those things.
And for a while I wasn't even sure if I wanted to be a business major because having classes
with people like that didn’t make me feel like I belonged, or like I mattered, in that specific
context. But sometimes you just kind of like, you know, toughen it out, realize that like,
what's happening, like, content-wise, and that like, it’ll kind of be worth it in the long run?
Of like, something that you've already gone so deep into and that you seem to enjoy, but
like, the environment hasn't necessarily always been great.
H: Yeah, that was actually one of my questions, was how do you see your intersecting
identities, like, affect your academic life, professional life, personal life?
I: Do you want me to explain that now then?
H: Sure.
I: Okay, perfect. Um, I think, so when it comes to just very, like, academically, and like, it’s
definitely something I’ve seen, just being within one of my identities that other POCs talk
about, like how Minnesota business has a lot of White people, and how a lot of times there’s
cultural insensi--like, insensitivities and how there’s, like, microaggressions and other
things that happen in those spaces, and how those are really, obviously, hard to navigate.
And like, like, I have a class right now where I’m the only POC and that hasn’t happened a
lot, there’s usually two or three of us, so like, sometimes, like, a topic will come up and like,
you can literally see seeing people looking at you, and like, being like, oh, there’s the one
brown person, like, will they answer, like “I’m just going to pretend,” but like, I think the
more, like, intersectionalities that exist, and the circumstance, also the harder it can be,
‘cause even sometimes, like, I’ve had POCs in classes and we’ve talked about, like,
“America” and outsourcing and like, how a lot of my classmates have seen outsources, and
like, that’s okay, but like as an immigrant and, you know what I mean? Being on the other
side and seeing how like, certain things affect, like, that identity sometimes come up, like
being Black and like people saying, like, microaggressive things, also comes up, like being
Muslim, and talking about terrorism, like there's so many, like, different aspects and even
with a lot of business majors, like I said, are men, sometimes, like even though there’s quite
a few leadership women, sometimes, like, people say things, like make comments about,
like, “oh, women aren’t in leadership roles because women want to have children” and then
you being like, am I going to constantly have to be, you know, the one to shut these things
down? And sometimes it can, like, get hard ‘cause it's like, am I here in the classroom for
like, to try and just correct people? Or am I here to learn? And obviously a lot of the time
we’re there to learn, but sometimes it can be really hard to navigate. Um, was one them
personally? I think personally, I’ve honestly been blessed to find people that are like, even
though we’re not going to have the same identities, that are very understanding, and like,
care about what, like, my views are, and like, even when it’s Ramadan, and it’s like time to
fast and stuff, you know what I mean? And like they’re more considerate. So I think
personally, like, it doesn't obviously work out for everyone, you know, I have the privilege
that I found friends and like, people, and like professors and connections that I’ve made at
Hamline, that I’ve been able to easily navigate and not necessarily always be thinking, like,
“which identity of mine to I have to put at my forefront today?” but that like, you can just
have, like, a human connection with someone. I think career-path-wise, and like, this is
something that like, I never used to think about, but like, as we talk about, like, as I apply to
jobs and like do stuff I wonder like, well, will there be racial profiling? Like, will I not be
picked for something just because I'm Muslim, or like, how will, even when I start a job,
like, how will I be perceived by my co-workers because it's just like, I’ve found that comfort
in those connections at Hamline, that like, I don’t go into spaces anymore thinking, like,
how I’m going to be perceived, I’m like, “I know this student to a certain extent,” so like, I
think that will be hard to navigate, like, the beginnings of like, figuring out, like, where
you're wanted, and where you're not wanted, and like, just have to prove yourself more
than them, like, the other people have to prove themself, so I think a lot of time it depends
on the environment and the circumstance, but like, at some point you kind of become good
at just navigating them, sadly, and like, code switching, and just being like, okay, so this part
of my identity is obviously not wanted here, how can I, like, put that in a box for now and
do what I need to do to get through this class so that I can, like, further my degree.
H: Are you or your family very involved in the Somali community here?
I: Um, my parents are, like, very, very, especially my father. He’s a huge component of like,
well they both are, of like, culture and staying connected, and like, he has a lot of friends,
and like, he goes to the Somali stores, and gets his hair cut by Somali people, and like, eats
Somali food, and like, he’s very set in like, a lot of, like, very, very, like, nitty-gritty cultural
aspects, which I think are great, and also a way, like, even generation, I think about it
sometimes, like, my sister and I didn’t obviously use as much as they did as kids, you know?
We grew up here. So like, this is where we’ve kind of found comfort, in like, the American
culture. But to them that’s a way of, like, staying connected and being able to be, like, I
might not necessarily have the space to live there right now, but can I have that space in the
environment that I’m currently in all day. And then for me, I think it kind of depends. I
honestly just trying to support a lot of POC, seeing if I can, like, to like buy something at,
like, a local brewery, even if it’s not, not just POCs, but like, more local owned businesses,
um, but like, there’s also, um, Karmel, um, it’s the Somali stores, but like, I get my clothes
there, I get food there, so like, there’s different ways to connect to it, but I think a lot of
times I’ll just connect from, like, my parents directly and the things that they’ve taught me,
that like, I integrate a lot of those into the life I live. And I don’t really necessarily have a lot
of Somali friends, so it’s like, more of like, what I--you know what I mean, how I view it and
what I do to apply it, so it’s very insightful.
H: So was there a choice by your parents to move here because of the Somali community or
did they just kind of end up here?
I: So they actually placed us in Florida
H: Okay
I: um, and then we were there for twenty-one days, very, like, specific, um, and one of my
aunts actually lives in--lived in--Faribault, Minnesota, which is actually where my parents
wanted to be, and for them it was more of like, not necessarily a sense of community, but a
sense of family. So when we came here in 2003, so like, Somali people kind of started
immigrating mainly in 2007 and 2008, is like when a lot of people started coming and
obviously it’s continuing to increase, so at that point there wasn’t necessarily, like, there
was kind of a community but it wasn’t as big as it is now, but for them it was more of, like,
how can we be closer, like, you know, we had other family in Rochester, and then obviously
after us there was some in Minneapolis, and it was just more of, like, the sense of family,
but then my parents also had the ability to have that sense of community as more and more
Somali people started moving in.
H: Um, you’ve already talked about this some, but I was wondering about types of
discrimination and prejudice you’ve faced within White Minnesota, and if you’ve faced any
within the Somali community, just, for, I don’t know, being a woman or being American, or
what.
I: Um, so, I don’t, I don’t know how much you know about like, south of Minnesota, but, it’s
not great, um, to say the least. But growing up in Faribault, like, was very, there wasn’t even
that many Black people so I was very aware that I was a different color, like growing up,
was very aware of like Islam, and like, and very aware of like, being an immigrant, so like
even if there was like, even Black people were certain people who at least grew up here,
they had that, like, American culture that they could at least connect to their peers with but
like I didn’t have that growing up, like, my mom would send me with, like, Somali pasta and
the kids would be, like, having hamburgers and like, a lot of the time, like people would ask
you “what is that?” and, you know what I mean? Kids teasing kids, but obviously there’s
always the underlying things and like, like wearing a hijab, and like, I have kids pull off my
hijab and like, things that I obviously know aren’t okay but at that point, like as a kid, I
wasn’t necessarily, like, heavily bothered by it, cause I was like, “you bully me, I’m gonna
bully you!” That doesn’t necessarily sound great, but it was more of, lik,e how I dealt, but
like, I think I really started to notice it once like I entered middle school, and, like, that was
when all the Somali people started coming to Faribault as well, and at that point, like, stuff
started becoming really segregated, like even though I had gone to elementary school and
grown up with these kids, like, they started making comments about Islam and about
Somali people and like, they would literally call us “Smellians” because “Somali people
smell bad,” and like, just making comments about like our culture and things, and like,
there was always fights breaking out, and like, Somali people would have to stand over
here and like, the Whites could stand over there, and the Hispanics over here, and like,
things that like I didn’t really think about, like much until I honestly got to college and then
I was like, yeah, this is, like, a huge problem, and like even within communities, like Somali
people will stand together here, and like, a lot of the time, even in high school, like, people I,
like, used to run around with in like second-grade were, like, calling me the n-word and
like, certain things I realize now, like, these things stem from, like, how you’re raised, you
know what I mean, and like all your like environment and what happens and like, I don’t
know but like, I literally visited, like, two months ago, being in Hamline-- I’m not gonna say
Hamline’s perfect, but like, or the cities are perfect, but like, people are really passive
aggressive, you know, and there’s microaggressions and, like, no one will usually outrightly
say something bad to me, but like, I would literally, like, um, picking up, like, um, candy bars
and milk or something for the house, and like, some guy called me the n-word and started
attacking me out of nowhere, and like I haven’t had that happen in a while and now, it was
like, holy shit, what is happening, I was like, like entirely shook, cause like it hasn’t
happened in so many years that I was like, I don’t even, like, know how to react to that at
first, like I kinda shut down, and then he did it again, and obviously at that point I’m, like,
aggressive, so, I got a little aggressive but like, it’s really weird to see how, like, White
America in the context of, like, the south, are very open with a lot of the markings, like even
when Trump was running with a lot of Trump flags in the area when I visit home, and like
how, when you come to a more diverse, like, concentrations, like Minneapolis and St. Paul
and stuff, how people will not be as outright about their views, and are willing to hide them
because they, like, realize they’re not necessarily in the majority. So I think I’ve just gotten
used to it, you kind of get immune to the reality of like, racism or some awful other
combination of things and, like, when people say stuff to you, like, it doesn’t hurt as much,
‘cause you grew up with it. But I think, like, the older I get the more I’m like realizing that
like, these things are not okay, and I have to, like, stand up for myself, and like stand up for
others too. I don’t know if that answered your question.
H: Um, just, the other part I had, was if there was any sort of discriminations within the
Somali community.
I: Oh yes. Um… yes. And I think, I think it’s a weird in-between, because like, I, like I said I
grew up with like, my White peers, like with them, you know, I was friends with them,
when there was different concentrations of like Somali people, like, I was pretty much like
told I was White, like I don’t even like let people know that like, there was like this specific
group of girls who used to, like, pick on me all the time, they would make comments about
me when I was in the bathroom, and like, in Somali, assuming I didn’t speak Somali, and
they’re like, “oh, look at how she’s acting, she’s too American, acting like she’s better than
us,” and I never, like, said anything to them until like they started making comments about
my family, and then, at that point I let them in, but I think, I think when, like, groups
segregate themselves, like, you have to pick a side, and like no matter what side you pick,
like, unless you pick quote-on-quote “the right side,” which is, like the one that you fit into,
even if you, like, show that you’re White or like, you’re an oreo, or like, you know what I
mean? Like, you have an American culture in you, like, they’re gonna discriminate against
you, and be like “you’re not one of us,” like, just because you grew up here. And like,
obviously, if you try to go to White people, like, they couldn’t accept you because you’re
different or you’re special, like, you’re not just like they are, but at the end of the day, like,
you are them either, so I think, like, there’s definitely like, little kids being like, “oh, you’re
not Somali,” and “oh you’re not this enough and you’re not that enough,” and I think that
affected a lot of like, at least growing up, my identity struggle of like, who am I and what am
I, ‘cause it’s obvious these people don’t want me, but it’s also obvious that I don’t belong
here, and kinda straddle my like Somali identity with my American identity, because like,
you have both happening at the same time and there isn’t necessarily a perfect way to fit
them in together.
H: What made you, like, kind of come to accept who you are? Like, you are very confident
now, so…?
I: I think, like honestly this is gonna sound weird, but I just, like, woke up one day, and I was
like, forget all of ‘em! Like, at the end of the day, like, there isn’t a perfect space to exist in, if
that makes sense, like you have to be yourself and like, I realize that, and I’m not saying
flaunt all of your identities, like, I’m not gonna like, try and push down onto people and be
like, one day you’ll just love it, but like I think I was just like, this is my Somali identity, like
this is my culture, this is my religion, and like, these are true aspects of myself, that I’ve
grown up in, that I’ve loved and cared about, and like they matter enough to me not to, like,
drop them or change myself, so at some point I was like, I don’t need to be like, quote-onquote “Somali enough,” like I’m gonna have my American aspects to myself. And at some
point, like, I literally just was like, okay, like you’re literally outright racist, I don’t want to
be your friend anymore. I’m like, you act like you care about the Somali community but
you’re only going to, like, accept who fits into what bubble, so like, I think very similarly to
college I just literally make friends within the context of school and was like, you get me for
who I am, and like, obviously my culture matters and we can, like, talk about the beauties of
what you have to offer and I have to offer but like, I am who I am and I’m not gonna
necessarily change, but I think there’s also the aspect where, when you grow up around a
group of people that are not yours, you wish you would change. You know, like, you wish
you were part of them so you have to navigate things or explain why you have to pray at
this time and like why you have to do this or why your mom sent you to--like, lunch with
this particular meal. And I think, like, at some point like, I just realized I was me, no matter
how hard you try to fit in you’re never gonna fit in and you’re never gonna be them no
matter how many hamburgers you eat, or like, how many times you tell your mother you
don’t wanna wear this particular outfit. So I think at some point I just like realized who was
genuinely my friend and cared about me for who I am, and not because I fit a perfect
bubble, or that, like, I was just the right amount of Somali enough to be a part of people, but
I think like, occasionally I think about them, like there’s always obviously like an in-
between struggle but I think like, I don’t know like I said, just in high school at some point I
was just like, I am who I am, and like, I’m not gonna necessarily change that for someone by
starting just, like taking toxic people and toxic things out of my life and finding the people
as in like, who I am is worthy enough of the space I take up and that I shouldn’t have to
explain who I am to other people.
H: Um, do you personally know any Somali female entrepreneurs or business owners, or…?
I: I know women who have, like, leadership roles, if that makes sense....
H: Yeah!
I: ...who are like managers and like, do things at certain spaces, but like, a lot of Somali
people work in like the medical field, you know, how there’s like certain, like, sets of things
that, like, people kind of like, jump into, but I think, for when it comes to business, it’s not,
like, necessarily as much because, like, women are supposed to be nurturing, you know
what I mean? Even within, like, gender norms, and even within just Islam in America and
other things, like, so like, a lot of times if you notice, a lot of women go into, like, like, um,
child care, like, um, the medical field, just like certain, like, not necessarily softer fields, but
like fields that are more nurturing and caring for people, but like I've never met, like, a
C.E.O Somali woman, or like, when I’ve gone to like different, like, business conferences and
things for like, um, just… just because of, like, Islam, and being a part of, like, the Muslim
Student Association in the school, and also just being a business major as well, and I’ve seen
a couple, like, navigating that, but, it’s, I don’t know, I feel like every time a woman is in a
powerful space, especially, like, a POC/Muslim, that she’s not as easily able to navigate that,
because of, obviously, all of the sexism, misogyny, all of the, like, Islamophobia, and other
combinations of things, but like, personally, all of the like, women, like, all of the women I
know, are literally in the medical field, or work in schools, or work in some capacity of both,
but I don’t, yeah, I don’t personally know, like, any specific, like, women, I just have seen a
couple in different, like, roles,
H: Do you think… I mean, you see yourself in a leadership role, do you know how you'll
adapt to that if there aren't really any role models, I guess, out there?
I: I think, ultimately, um, I think at some point, like, it’s, it’s kind of sad, like, I gave up on the
notion of role models, and was like, I'm just going to do what I'm going to do. But I think,
like, generally, I’ve seen people like Ilhan Omar, and like, other, like, Somali women making
it and doing things, and like, even, like, I forget her name, it’s like, Kelima or something, like,
even the one that [...] has been really helpful to, like, when Somali women be like, okay, I
think this is what I want to do, but I think it’s the notion of like, letting literally Somali
women know that, like, you don’t all have to go into the medical field, and I was like, I’m
never doing that with my life, but I think ultimately, I’ve just found my passion and care and
things, and I've had the privilege of having parents that, like, pushed me to do what I want
to do, like, you know? That let me go and allowed me to pursue things, but I also think just
that having, like, at least not career-wise, but like, within, like, my mother and like, of my
father, and like, you don’t need to man, you know? You know, like, are your own woman,
and you, like, can navigate whatever space and do whatever you want, has always been,
like, a big part, but like, like you said, not, I think not having role models, or having, like,
people to look up to and, like, career guidance, can sometimes be hard because when you
get discouraged, there isn’t necessarily someone to like, mentor you that has had similar
experiences, but I feel like, as generations go on, like, maybe myself and other people can
be those, you know, role models for younger generations doing things that are, like, we’re
pushing to do, but I think, like, the Somali community/Somali women especially within the
capacity of business, like, I think this, these generations like my generation and onward are
the ones kinda like breaking into that, you know? And like, paving a path and making, I
don’t know, like leaving a mark for other Somali women to follow, but I think currently
there isn’t really enough women for me to be like, “yeah, I think she’s a great role model,”
like I’ve had the ability to like, see her and think that I could be that too, but I also think that
going to youth and working in government, work in nonprofits, I am choosing the softer
side of business, and not something obviously I had a mission that I’m meant to do, but like
I feel like in terms of a Somali CEO woman you know, making big and doing things, there
won’t necessarily be like that kind of, like, straight pathway for me.
H: So the question in my head has disappeared, but I’ll just do the other one I had. Um, do
you have any idea if, or could you imagine how your experiences might be different if you
weren’t in the Twin Cities where there is a fairly high Somali population?
I: I think, and this is actually some conversation I’ve had with my parents, cause my parents
were like you have to go to school and kinda move back home which is obviously
something I don’t wanna do, but I feel like I don’t… I think my experiences wouldn’t be as
positive. I think here, even, like not even just like Somali people, but it’s like, there’s so
many different, you know what I mean, different diverse groups like, different types of
Muslims, and like, by types I mean ethnically, I was like, that sounded weird! I think that
like, here there’s like a lot, a large concentration of just people going to college, like, picking
career paths and like, doing things and making it for themselves, and like even seeing
Somali women that have graduated before me and like my cousins and other people who
do have jobs in the Twin Cities, and like, are going to grad school and doing other things,
has, has generally helped me realize that like, there’s other people trying to do the same
thing that I’m doing, and like I’m not necessarily alone. And I think that’s kinda like a
comfort of being like, there’s other people who are also trying to do things and you don’t
have to like quote on quote “be the token” and like, there’s others wanting to do similar
things. But I feel like if, I don’t know, say there was like a college that I really liked that
wasn’t here, like, home, I would probably have found a job there, and like still felt like an
outsider in that capacity. And I feel like that wouldn’t help me push myself to like try more
and do more and be more. ‘Cause sometimes it’s just, honestly, easier just being the
outsider than, than being the token, but I think it kind of, I think I’m more like privileged in
these spaces where you see so many Somali people all like, and a lot of them having their
own stores and being entrepreneurs and like, you know my aunt has her own store, in like
um, the Somali mall and sometimes I’m just visiting her and seeing her like work hard and
do things for herself-- I guess she’s a businesswomen role model!
H: There we go!
Ikram: Okay! I was like, wait a minute, there we are… um, but like she owns her own
business and like visits other places and like finds new fashion and like clothes and like,
just literally does her own things like she doesn’t even like employ any other people like
she’s like, “this is my little store, and I’m gonna make it exactly how I want when I want,”
like opens when wants, closes when she wants, and like calls the shots and like, I’ve seen
her like navigate conversations and do things that like, a woman that doesn’t necessarily
speak like, you know what I mean, speak the language of the, like, the language that’s
mainly spoken in this country, but still find ways to navigate those like spaces and be able
to like handle herself and speak up for herself even though she doesn’t necessarily have
identities that allow her to seem like she knows what she’s doing, I think has been really
helpful, and like seeing other people, like starting to do it and make things I think… I think
to answer your question, I’m just going on a whole tangent, I think if I didn’t, wasn’t in the
Twin Cities and was a maybe more White populated spot or place that didn’t have as many
Somali people, I would feel that like connection, or like, that like, not really a connection but
just knowing that other people are doing the same thing as me and that like, there’s other
people in this community that are just trying to make it and do their own thing, I think it’s a
satisfying thing to watch and be a part of.
H: Um, do you think that there’s a level of disconnect with each next, like, coming
generation, between Somalia and like, second, third-generation immigrants?
I: Definitely. Um, I think it plays like a, even like I said within my sister and I, and like
navigating conversations and stuff with our parents, I think like the like, gener--like, the
generation of immigrants, like the parents that generally came here, and the grandparents,
are very set in the like, hopes that they can like, one day go back to their country and like,
be able to like, set roots there and do things, so they’re very high on like, eating the right
way, you know, and dressing the right way, doing everything that, like, promotes their
culture, and I think the rest of us are like, well, Kendrick Lamar is popular, and like, no one
wants to be listening to like, the Somali songs are poppin’, but like, it’s like I’d rather listen
to like, rap and to this and eat that food and try this and like, especially when we are in
spaces that have so many different cultural options of, like, foods and things to do, I think
it’s really hard for youth to be like, yeah, I’m gonna go with the not-so-mainstream-popular
thing, I think like, just honestly, the frame of capitalism and what it is is like, she has an
iPhone, I also want an iPhone because everyone has an iPhone, kind of a thing. So I think
generationally, like materialism and capitalism play a really big role in the things that like,
youth cares about and wants to participate in and like, even as simply as like dressing stuff
like, I’m literally, like this is the only like, you know what I mean, like my hijab is the only
cultural thing I’m wearing, like otherwise, I’m wearing stuff from like Old Navy, and like JC
Penny, and like, instead where I know like if I go to the store I could find, you know what I
mean, I could find like Somali cultural appropriate stuff, I would rather dress in, like, the
things that are like, modern in the country I exist in. So I think when it comes to like certain
cultural aspects, like, I think the younger and younger generations are more disconnected
from the reality of their particular culture because it’s not something we’ve had, like, the
opportunity to grow up in, necessarily, or be surrounded by. And obviously, in any
particular space, like, you are the environment you grow up in, and so I think like as, like,
the generations get younger there seems to even be, like, less people that speak Somali, and
like, like it’s just very, like, assimilated into like mainstream of like acting and participating
in what American culture has to offer. So I definitely think there is, like, a disconnect from
like older generations than younger, and even when it comes to, like, religious aspects too
and like other things that play into tradition, I’ve definitely seen people, like, butt heads or
like, kids not understand where their parents are coming from and it’s obvious it’s just a
very protected state, and it’s obvious the parents don’t understand where the kids are
coming from ‘cause they’re very set in their ways and don’t necessarily understand the
American traditions of like, what it means to be a kid or what adulthood is because like
Somali culture’s very like, you’re my kid, period, you know? And America’s like, the
moment you turn 18 you’re free, and like kind of like, even youth my age, and including
myself, having to navigate those conversations, like I’m not a child! But like, culturally, I am
to you, you know? So I definitely think there is a disconnect between the different
generations.
H: And then I guess, is there just anything else you want to share about your identity, or
what you have seen about Somali community, leadership, business, anything?
I: I think just, generically, and I feel this is more going back to the like generational thing, I
know that there is a lot of this, like, Islamophobia and like, especially with like Trump, and
like a lot of other, like, identities that are like, obviously marginalized but like, more
marked based off of the current administration and I know a lot of people, even for just
personal safety, who used to not, like, wear the hijab or do traditional things, ‘cause they
don’t wanna be marked or identified or attacked for who they’re being, and I think we are
in a space that doesn’t necessarily encourage or promote people to be who they truly are,
makes it really hard to be outright, and you know I mean open and, like, happy, to do the
things you have to ‘cause sometimes it’s more about survival for certain people than it is
for necessarily thriving in those particular things. And then I think another thing that plays,
and that’s not obviously all Somali people, but for, I think, Somali women being business
owners and other things, like, a lot of times there’s a lot of sexism and misogyny and other
things that I think play a huge role within the Somali culture and like, not, and I think this
plays a role in any culture honestly, but like, not a lot of women are necessarily encouraged
to, like, get a higher degree or, like, do things or, like, I’ve definitely heard people be like,
“you don’t need a college degree,” like, “you’re gonna obviously get married and have kids”
and it’s like, under the assumption that, like, a woman literally has to fit in to those
particular gender roles, I think play a really big role in, like, why maybe that there isn’t a lot
of Somali women in, like, business roles for other, like, Somali youth to follow and then I
think it also, even though now we’re in college, I think it plays a role into like, even just in
America, how we have a lot of teachers, and like, how certain roles have a lot of women
because, like, women are asked, or have always been in those softer roles, and I think that
plays also a big thing in like, what a woman is allowed to do or not allowed to do as well. I
think that’s the only thing I have.
H: Thank you.
I: Perfect.
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