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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Mohamoud O. Mohamed, 2021
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: FG: Hello everyone, my name is Fatima Gele. I'm a student at expert University. It's April 8, 2021 and I'm here today with Muhammad Mohammed for the Oral History Project Muslim in Minnesota archive at x bog University. Could you please introduce yourself starting with your full name? MM: Th...
Show more FG: Hello everyone, my name is Fatima Gele. I'm a student at expert University. It's April 8, 2021 and I'm here today with Muhammad Mohammed for the Oral History Project Muslim in Minnesota archive at x bog University. Could you please introduce yourself starting with your full name? MM: Thank you, Fatima. My name is Mahmoud Osman Mohammed. FG: All right. Let's begin by telling us a little bit about yourself? MM: Well, I am from Somalia, but was born in a line, which is a city in the UAE. My parents entered the diversity visa lottery program. And luckily, my mother was randomly selected, which granted her and her immediate family receive the US Green Card. I am a husband and a father of a seven-month-old son named Suleyman. I've earned a master's degree in school counseling from the University of Wisconsin River Falls. I am a new school counselor at Roosevelt High School, which is a great high school. And I'm a part-time program director of youth and performance at the Somali Museum of Minnesota, which is one of the best nonprofit organizations out there. FG: Interesting. How's your family life? Is it a big family or a small one? Do you have any siblings? MM: Yes, I have a big family. I am one of six. I have two brothers and three sisters. Additionally, I also have one stepsister and three half brothers. I'm grateful to still have my mother, my father, my grandmother, and my aunts, all in my life. FG: Okay, in terms of your religious upbringing, what was your childhood like? MM: I've had a great childhood. Of course, there were ups and downs. But for the most part, I had a great upbringing. As a child, I was taught to have a close relationship with Allah. And to know that he will always be there for me. FG: Okay, where did you leave and go to school? What was your experience like as a Muslim student in school? MM: Good question. I grew up in Houston, Texas, and attended some Elementary, starting with fourth grade. Then after that was middle school, and high school, all in Houston, Texas. My schools were located in a low-income neighborhood, which has its ups and downs. I was one of the only Muslim students in my elementary and middle school days. In high school, there were a lot more Muslims, Muslim students, which made it easier for teachers and school staff to learn about our religion. And let us stay far away from the school cafeteria when we were fasting. FG: So now you mentioned that you grew up in Houston, Texas. How long have you been here in Minnesota? MM: I've only lived in Minnesota for about seven years. My family and I moved from Houston, Texas, to Minneapolis, Minnesota simply because of opportunities. It wasn't easy finding or keeping a job in Houston as a young Somali man, I mean, Houston. had its other advantages were, you know, living with affordable. But there was a lack of opportunities for someone like me. Yeah, and they’re just weren't any opportunities for advancements or growth. I am not speaking for my Somali peers who still reside in Houston. But this is based on my experience. There was a well-established, you know, I always I’d, Minnesota, and I was so drawn to it. Because there was a well-established Somali community in Minnesota, who successfully worked their way up and contributed to the success of Minnesota. Um, and I just, I was just really attracted to that I was drawn to it, and amazed by the good work of the Somali community in Minnesota. And I wanted to be a part of that. And I am so glad that my family and I made the move here. All right. So as a child, what did you want to be when you grew up? MM: Um, I used to say that I wanted to be a teacher, when I was a child, shows to always go around the house, telling everyone that I'll be a teacher. But around the time I was a teenager, I changed my mind and wanted to be an actor. I was really interested in performing arts I loved even as a little boy, I would gather my siblings, and have them act out a scene from a movie. And I've always enjoyed it. And in these plays, that we've acted out, I've always had scenes where we've even done songs where we've done some dancing. So as a teenager, I said, You know what, I want to become a famous actor, just like Denzel Washington Will Smith, you know, and all the other great actors and somebody moved to Hollywood. Um, my family, though, didn't really approve of that, and instead encouraged me to become a pharmacist. They really thought I would be wasting my time with this whole acting world acting profession, and that I should get that I should go into the medical field, or, or and especially, become, specifically become a pharmacist. After taking my pre-pharmacy courses, which I've spent years doing, I knew this wasn't the career for me. So I searched and searched and searched for a career that suited my interest. And after a long search, I decided to become a school counselor. Now, let me go back, because during my high school days, I really never, I don't remember sitting down with the counselor. So I've, I've been so frustrated after high school, I've spent a lot of time, money, and energy. I'm figuring out what it is that I needed to do. And I am grateful that after spending so many years searching, that I've actually found that I finally found what was best for me, the career that suited me, and that was becoming a school counselor. No, I did not I did not really mind. on what level of counseling, whether it was elementary, middle school, or high school, as long as I was making a difference, and being impactful to the youth, that's all that mattered to me. Wow. FG: So how did your life change after you came to Minnesota? MM: Um, well, I am grateful to now live in Minnesota. I got to take advantage of all the opportunities that were available for me. I really don't think that I would have really reached as far as I did. If I was still living in Houston. I got to work for the Somali Museum, which was founded by my father. And I got the opportunity to help develop one of the best programs for the Somali Museum. I have that program is the Somali museum dance troupe, which is a traditional dance program. So, to tell you a little bit about the Somali museum dance troupe. It's made up of young men and women who not only study Somali traditional dancing every Saturday from four to six but also perform them out for the communities. We've traveled and performed in so many venues, and so many cities such as Houston, Texas, San Diego, California, Columbus, Ohio. Grand Forks, North Dakota, Virginia, we've got to perform in Seattle, and all across Minnesota, from Wilmer to St. Cloud to Rochester, to Faribault to E men, Qaeda, you name it, we've performed all across Minnesota. And yeah, I am I'm, I think it's being a part of the Somali Museum. And having to develop that program means a lot to me, because we've touched so many people, not just locally, but around the world. The following museum platform has allowed me to expand my ability to successfully teach people about the culture, our culture. And I've also gotten to, we've gotten to me and the dance troupe and all the other staff members of the museum, we've got an opportunity to put a smile on the faces of many by entertaining them. And more. I got the opportunity to become a teacher as well. I taught I've taught at Wellston international High School, which is a great, great High School. majority of the students that were enrolled in this high school where students who've only been in the country for a few years. They had limited knowledge of the English language, but they were some of the resilient most resilient, and hardworking students that I've ever worked with. They were juggling their schoolwork and at the same time, working at night, working long and hard hours to provide for their families back home. Um, yeah, and they’ve worked twice as hard as everyone else. And for that, I'm really proud of them. I was responsible for Welstone international High School, I was responsible for teaching a college counseling curriculum for high school juniors and seniors that will support them in applying for best-fit colleges and universities. In addition to teaching, I work closely with academic teachers, parents, students, universities, and more to ensure our students are equipped With the knowledge and tools they need to successfully be enrolled and to thrive in a college until they graduate. Um So yeah, I'm, I was very lucky to work with these students to work with the teachers at Welstone international high school with the principal with their system principal with the other mental health professionals, such as the social workers, and counselors. And I've all have that has been one of my best experiences, I made sure that students evaluate various post-secondary degrees, careers, and institutions. And at the end of the year, my goal was that they each chose the career that was the best I mean, the call the career that was the best fit for them, the degree that was the best fit for them, and the institution that was the best for them. I also got them to evaluate what a good resume is, and a cover letter. A through A, through a mock interview process. And as a result, 98% of the students of seniors graduated from high school 94% of them applied to college before they graduated. And 24% of the seniors were granted a scholarship. So we've had good results, especially with students who are el English language learners. Yeah, so, if it wasn't for my move to Minnesota, I don't think any of this would be possible. FG: Very good, So, um, what is the most beautiful places you have ever visited? And what was it like? MM: You know, I visited a lot of beautiful places. One that I can remember is visiting California. I have visited many cities in the state of California, such as Los Angeles, San Diego, and more. And I was just in love with it. I loved the great variety of food. They had everything they're like you could find any type of food. And the quality of the food was great. It's a natural beauty. From the trees to the beach. It was just stunning was beautiful. And of course, the entertainment. Like I told you earlier, I'm into Performing Arts, I'm into entertainments and arts. And I think they have I mean, come on, they have Hollywood. So I've really enjoyed the entertainment scene. They're FG: interesting. What person had the most positive influence on your life? MM: I besides Malcolm X, who I've looked up to my mother, father, and Big Brother have been the most influential people in my life. My mother always taught me to give back. forgive others, even if they're wrong, be kind to people and pray when things aren't going your way or going right. My mom was a caring person and just an amazing, amazing woman who has sacrificed a lot for us. My dad taught me about work ethics, and to be brave in this world. As you can see, there's so much happening in this world. And it's very important to be strong and brave. I respect his hard work and accomplishments and I am lucky to work with him at the Somali Museum of Minnesota. Last an I was my brother, I respect my brother's positive attitude. You know, that my, my entire life. My brother has never said anything else. To me, never a curse word. He's the one person I know that have never cursed at anyone. What do we just pretty impressed with with everything that could go on in this world? So yeah, I really respect his positive attitude. I respect his patience. I respect his loyalty and his compassion. And I'm really grateful, really, really grateful to have all three of them in my life. FG: Okay, what path did religion play in your family? MM: Actually, it's Islam has taught us there in life, we will be tested. And then when you are tested, you seek help from God. You seek help from God through patience and prayer. That teaching has helped us through a lot in life and made us rely on and love our Creator, Allah. Islam also taught us to have love and sympathy for all humanity. Which is why we can coexist. You know, in such a diverse country. We can coexist with anyone regardless of their background, race, and religion. FG: So what does being Muslim mean to you? And what are some of the biggest misconceptions about Muslims? MM: Well, Islam means peace. It means love, compassion, generosity, brotherhood, and sisterhood. Do you know? Islam, for us, is a way of life. And there is there, of course, are lots of misconceptions. One of those misconceptions is that Islam is not peaceful. It's not a peaceful religion. And I want to really clarify this because I've, I was raised as a Muslim man. So I've lived all my life as a Muslim. And I can assure you that the Islamic religion his Islam is peaceful, it's peaceful. In the Islamic religion, it is absolutely forbidden to discriminate against others based on their class, ethnicity, religion, and also their gender. That is exactly what most Somali people practice. The actions and beliefs of violent groups do not represent a religious religion, that that we practice. So, and it doesn't help, you know, it doesn't help when you have, especially in the past, lots of movies that portrayed us as terrorists, villains, and they just brutal people. Some of those films I'm talking about are Captain Phillips, and Black Hawk Down, and a few others. And it really didn't help. And that didn't sit too well with me. That when people formed, formed an idea of what Islam was like. When they really didn't know how peaceful it was, so yeah, this is what being a Muslim meant to me and I'll go ahead and repeat that. Islam is peace. It's love. It's generosity, it's compassion. It's all about brotherhood and sisterhood. And yeah, and I'm and I love being a Muslim man. Yeah. FG: Is there anything else you would like to say? MM: Well, we live in such a wonderful country, a country that allows freedom, a country that is well established. And that gives us access to health and education and so many other great things. But the United States is becoming more right racially and ethnically diverse. So it is likely that you'll be working with or be classmates with or be neighbors, with people from different cultures. So it's important to have some perspective and understanding of their cultures. Whether it intertwines with the religion or not doing that having some perspective and understanding of their culture, and about them will make not only this country but the world a better place. All right. Thank you very much for being here with me. Thank you, Fatima, for having me. FG: Today is Thursday, April 15, 2021. My name is Fatima Gele. And I'm here with Mohammed Mohammed for the oral history project in Minnesota archives at expert. University. So Ramadan Mubarak! how's your day today? Ramadan. Mubarak, my day is going well. Thank you for asking. FG: Great. So just going back a little bit about what you said earlier in the last recording. You mentioned that you moved to Minnesota because there were so many opportunities available. So tell me more about this? MM: Well, what I meant is well, the more of us here, the better the opportunity. So I'll repeat that again. So the more of us here, the better the opportunity. Somali people in this state are united. They're strong and hard-working immigrants or citizens who operate many businesses, and will most of the time offer employment opportunities to their own. Somalis played a huge role in the Minnesota capital recovery and the local real estate market. I've also noticed that many non-Somalis will hire Somalis for the benefit of serving their soul Molly clients, patients, or students since there are misunderstandings and miscommunications between them due to language barriers and cultural differences. For example, let's just say there's a school of 1000 students and half of them are Somali. It's likely that the principal of that school will hire several Somali staff members to support Somali students and to help bridge the gap between the Somali students and non-Somali students and staff at that school. So that's what I meant by Yeah, FG: Interesting. I have never been to any other state than Minnesota. So I'm glad to hear that. Next question, what was your religious life? like growing up in Houston, Texas? What congregation? If any, did you attend each celebration? The way Muslims organized to come together during eat prayer? How is that different from Minnesota? MM: Yeah, that's a great question. Fatima. So, in Houston, Texas. Houston has a large Muslim population. The biggest gathering, I remember are the times we attended, eat prayers at the convention center. Events. Were organized by all Muslims, and events are all-inclusive. The only difference in Minnesota is that the majority of the Muslims in this state come from one nation, which is Somalia. We have a large established Somali community in Minnesota. Great. So with this, did your family have any special traditions such as things that they did on holidays? Or birthdays? Yes, my family and I just like almost lumps, celebrate eat and run mother. Also for Molly's love going to cultural events that include entertainment. So I organized one of the biggest events of the year, which is kind of a corporate entertainment event where we showcase Somali culture whether it's dancing, poetry, theatre play, a kids fashion show, you name it. You we showcase your all and we've had sold-out venues for the past seven years, almost every year for the past seven years. So that shows you how much Somalis love their culture. Besides each celebration events and cultural event that the Somali museum showcased here in Minnesota, the Somali independence day festival is a very popular celebration. FG: That's good. The next question I will have is with student involvement, as you talked about working as a college and careers teacher and then becoming a high school counselor. What was your experience like transitioning from teacher to counselor? MM: Yeah, good question. So, when I was a high school teacher, I used to teach certain subjects to my students inside of a classroom. As the counselor, I deliver counseling services to students, and work with them, one on one, one on one, or in a small group. So I'm a licensed school counselor, who qualifies to address the academic career, and social-emotional development needs of all my students, regardless of their race, religion, and ethnic background. I believe that I do a lot more work as a school counselor. Then I did as a teacher. And with and by the way, both professions. The goal for both professions is to help your students succeed in school and outside of school. So counselors and teachers have the same goal. We will Want to see our students be successful? And there's nothing more that I would love than to work with students and see them achieve their goals. I am glad I was a teacher before becoming a school counselor. Because I learned so much about classroom management strategies, such as setting clear rules and boundaries. Also, I can empathize with how teachers feel when they are faced with challenging times, such as grading, lesson planning, teacher-parent conferences, and so much more.Okay. How will people describe you? Well, I think that people would describe me as an optimistic person, someone who is creative, someone who's imaginative, and an ambition person. Additionally, they would probably say that I'm dynamic and full of energy when leading people, especially the youth. Yeah, they they would, I think they would describe me as all that I've just mentioned. And also, I just have this cultural. What do you call it? Well, I do have that cultural competence, where I have a gift in seeing the potential in people and naturally have that ability to connect with them. Regardless of who they are, or what their cultural or ethnic background is, I just have that gift. And that just natural ability to connect with anyone, especially the youth. FG: That's good. What is your goal in the future? MM: In the future, I aspire to someday work as a school counsellor on an international capacity. Why? Because I believe that many children all over the world lack the proper emotional and psychological and social support that affects their development. So I aspire to spread my knowledge and expertise to other counsellors or teachers worldwide, to help them shape the positive emotional and psychological development of the children that are around the I think we are so grateful that school counsellors are well respected in the United States. We play a crucial role in a student's development in all levels, whether it's an elementary, middle school, or high school, even in college, so I really want to push other counsellors and other teachers out there, or educators to help students and support them emotionally and socially and emotionally. And hopefully, I will play a huge role in doing that. Well, FG:thank you so much for being here today. Oh, you're so very welcome, Fatima. I really thank you for for interview for choosing me and and for interviewing me.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Salma Awil, 2021
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Salma Awil, 2021 Abstract: The transcript of an oral history interview with Salma Awil, a first year at Augsburg University. Awil discusses her identities as a Somali Muslim woman. She also talks to us about how these identities shape her lens of th...
Show more Transcript of Oral History Interview with Salma Awil, 2021 Abstract: The transcript of an oral history interview with Salma Awil, a first year at Augsburg University. Awil discusses her identities as a Somali Muslim woman. She also talks to us about how these identities shape her lens of the world today. This oral history project was conducted by a student at Augsburg University and submitted in partial fulfillment of a course taught by Dr. Maheen Zaman. Zakariya Abdullahi 0:00 Hmm ... so my name is Zakariya Abdullahi and the date is March 29 2021. Salma can you introduce ... wow ... Salma can you please state your full name and age? Salma Awil 0:12 Hi. My name is Salma Said Awil, I'm a freshman here at Augsburg University. Zakariya Abdullahi 0:18 Awesome. Alright, so Salma of them ask a bunch of questions. Feel free to answer as in depth as you'd like, or you can make it short as you want. So the first question is, What did you have for either breakfast or lunch today? Salma Awil 0:32 I'm not really a morning personality really breakfast like that, even though it's like the first major meal. But I had coffee. Yeah. My iced. What do I get? Starbucks? doubleshot. Nice. Zakariya Abdullahi 0:47 Yeah. What? Are you in coffee feen? Salma Awil 0:48 Yes. Zakariya Abdullahi 0:49 Okay. That's fair. Okay. So next I'm asked you about just where you were born, where you were raised. So like, Where were you born? Salma Awil 0:57 I was born here in St. Louis Park, at Saint Methodist Hospital Zakariya Abdullahi 1:04 Okay. And then were you raised here (MN)? Salma Awil 1:06 Yeah, I was raised here most of my life, honestly. Zakariya Abdullahi 1:09 Okay. Were you raised in like different cities within Minnesota or? Salma Awil 1:11 Minneapolis ... the metro area Zakariya Abdullahi 1:14 Okay. And then, um, have you ever traveled abroad? If so, where? Salma Awil 1:19 I did, so I traveled. What year was it? 2013 to 14 I traveled to. So it was me as we did like a family vacation. It was me, my mom like the whole family. We went up to abroad to Europe. We stayed at London for like, I think two weeks. It turned into like a family vacation. Then we went to Dubai stayed there about like two to three weeks was beautiful. And so I want to go back. So after that we went to so this is a funny story. So we made it. My mom's like, I have to go see my sister. I haven't seen her like, two to three years is that time I'm like, okay, so we all agreed to on like Kenya. And then my mom told me "we're gonna stay at the beautiful part of Kenya". So okay, so we stayed there. And then my mom, apparently she loved it. So she was like, I want to extend it out. And I was like, Huh, so me, my sister is like my brother. We're like, Okay, well let it fly. But we have to go back to school. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And then let alone that she had planned out our school, like where were going to stay. And then she didn't tell us because my aunt she was like, Yeah, because you're staying here for another year. And I'm like, it's just what some other stuff. Yeah, like, why, but I was like, I want apparently she loved to play so much. So she was like, she talks to my arm, her sister. And she was like, Is there any good schools like schools around ... Dugsi like Sunday school. And she was like, me, she felt like enrolled all of us in. And then she was like, one day you came to listen, because we're saying that was our aunt. And then our aunt was like, she was like, yeah, guys are gonna stay here for another year. I already enrolled in school, you know, already got your uniform. Like, she got everything aligned. It was like smack in the face. And me and my siblings were like, huh, what? pause. And then my mom was like, yeah, we're gonna stay here. for another year. I did like a whole lease my visa and everything. She got that situated. And I'm like, Oh, no, we're not. We're me. We had a whole day fit, like a whole argument. And I'm like, I don't want to be here. I am not from here. I don't know. Like, I don't know, language, Swahili. And it's like, Swahili people like Kenyatte people are very mean. Like, if you move like speaking English, they only look at these little Americans look at these brands. So it's like, I was like, I don't fit in and I'm like, please take back. I want to go back to school. I want to see my friends. Zakariya Abdullahi 3:44 Right. And how old were you at this time? Salma Awil 3:46 I was 13 I believe 12, 13, 15 I'm not sure I was around that age. And I didn't really like it. Unfortunately for me, my sisters are pretty old. They're older than me. So they just took a flight out there like we are not staying. Zakariya Abdullahi 4:01 Oh, yeah, you're left behind. Salma Awil 4:04 I got me in my younger siblings and my brother we got left behind. Well my two sisters like autograph saying no, we it's supposed to be the stuff on vacation just you know stay there for two probably three just you know enjoy the weather and then go back but there was this was gonna be that agreement. And my mom was like No, I love it here. We're gonna stay up there pretty grown so my mom was like if you guys want to go back that's up to you you know totally but you kids I am in charge. So you're gonna say Zakariya Abdullahi 4:31 yeah, so did you live in Eastliegh when Salma Awil 4:35 no at first were staying in South Sea? So the good part of Kenya and then my mom was like, Okay you guys are need to see the real life like Kenya. This is are too Americanized. That's what she said. I am like hooyo, no, we're not. I love to here. I don't want to be like mud, like smelling all that sewer. I am like no. So she took us after staying because my aunt. She really had Like a big, like guest house cause Kenya they own these really big houses. So she had a guest house that we're staying in. And my mom was that, okay, she rented out an apartment in Eastliegh she said, You guys need to live experience like, see what is to, you know, Eastliegh, instead of just being a preppy, little. So she was like now so she took us to sleep after like staying like, four months in. So we were staying in that guest house for like four minutes for me for months. And then afterwards, we left. And then we stayed there for she pushed it out, like a year and a half. So, four months, being in a nice, nice guesthouse to like living in sleep for a year now. Like, a year, I'll say yeah. Zakariya Abdullahi 5:48 So how's that like living in Eastliegh? Salma Awil 5:50 Oh, it was really eye opening. Like the culture, the people how they interact with each other, like if you see two like people walking down this, you know, sidewalk. We (Americans) say excuse me, you know, you know, please move to somewhere there's no such thing as excuse me, they will bum into you. And I got, like, bumped into the floor so many times. And I'm like, you gotta toughen up there is no such thing as excuse me. . And I'm like, okay, yeah. So after we moved into Eastliegh, we got into like Sunday, you know, Dugsi, school. And over there. It's like, even though we have some like private schools here, where do you Where are you being used on wear uniform? Over there? Like all the schools all the Sunday schools are we are we wearing uniform? And that was like, Monday through like Monday through Sunday? Yeah, I only had like a day off like my mom's right. And to me, it was that but it was really it was really fun. Like, I loved like, one thing. I'm not regretting that went there. And I honestly loved it. Because I came back here with new eyes. Like, I felt more appreciate what I had it here because it's like, I see little kids, you know, that don't really have that much insight compared to what I have and I am like alx. You know, I'm thankful for what I have. And my parents provided me and looking back and I was like, I'm very grateful, honestly, because it's people write their display off, you know, selling little bananas, mangoes on the street just to make the living by and I'm like, and I complain about the little thing like, for Starbucks in suits. I don't like my drink. It's too nasty. Oh. So just over there and seeing how they live and how I'm living here. Alhamdulillah I'm grateful. Zakariya Abdullahi 7:36 Yeah. I mean, I think in Kenya, you also get to see like, especially Eastliegh, like you see the people that live on top of like the big trash warnings. Salma Awil 7:44 They're called. They're called. What was the name for? inaudible? Zakariya Abdullahi 7:48 What?. Salma Awil 7:49 inaudible, right? Zakariya Abdullahi 7:51 That's in Somali, right? Salma Awil 7:52 No, no, no, no, in Eastliegh like, people that will live on top of trash. Yeah, so that means inaudible are so since here, we call it homelesses. Like they're homeless. They're word over there is inaudible, Zakariya Abdullahi 8:07 That's actually well Salma Awil 8:09 there, we're staying there. I learned the language. Swahili. Zakariya Abdullahi 8:12 So did you speak now? Or Salma Awil 8:14 no, I kind of like I know if like few words like inaudible. That means a little bit. You know? What's the word was inaudible that means that I'm very good. I think I don't know my my swahili is bad. Like I understand, you know, a few things here and there. Because over there, we had like a maid. And she taught me Swahili, despite me going to school, it was really hard for me. So she taught me like, I'll teach me teach me English. And I'll teach Swahili. So I was like, perfect. So I was the only one in my family that learned it to quick that my mom should pick that up. But my siblings, like I'm not learning. They're like, no, so I came back here. And it's like, I had no one to speak at work. So I completely forgot. You know, if you don't like practice in your speaking you're going to forget it eventually. Zakariya Abdullahi 9:00 .No, that's true. What do you say is like, was the difference between kind of living in Kenya where, especially in Eastliegh, where you lived among like Muslims versus here in St. Louis Park, I think St. Louis Park as a huge, like Jewish community. So like, and just in Minnesota in general versus living in a more like, Muslim populated country. Salma Awil 9:21 I would say over there. Since the part that we lived in Slee we had a mosque near us like msgid. And that was like, because our apartment was like, right next to the next door to the message. So every morning, like I said, we were here that time, everything so it's like, we never miss Paris a lot. Like every time we would hear it and then my either walked invested, or just prayer at home and just listen, because we would hear but coming back here. It's like really hard because we got so used to, you know, the fetcher actually, you know, the hook, so we all hear that. So it's like compared to coming back here. It's like really hard to getting it back to it. So that was really hard for me to adjust. Because like Marshalls beautiful like, every time I hear a comment, I say, Come back to here. It's like nothing, you know. Hopefully you can hear or my mom telling me to pray. But coming over there, it's like you can hear through the windows. Yeah. Zakariya Abdullahi 10:21 And then, so this is kind of getting away from the center theme of the traveling, but so like, how has your like, faith influenced your life? Like being hijab and all that, like just being Muslim? How's that? Salma Awil 10:36 Honestly, it's beautiful. I love it. My friends, I work at Starbucks, right? And make sense? Yeah. Yes, it's a coffee. Um, so I have their I think they're Christian, I believe. Yeah. So they asked me, so I have a Muslim friend, but she doesn't cover up like she's show there. And I have another Christian friend. We all work together. And then one day, we were out and she asked me, you know, how is it wearing Hijab? Since you know, there's a lot some phobia going on? You know, how do you feel about that? I'm like, honestly, I am partnered with one person that, you know, call me on and what, Andrew how under there, and I'm like, into call, aren't you calling? So beautiful, I love it. So it's like having that refreshing talk someone saying, like, you know, it's like, honestly, it's a we live in a free country, even though people still criticize you, and judge you and will get you a certain way. At the end of the day. It's like, honestly, that's their opinion. And I can do that I feel, you know, contempt with myself, and I feel really good. So it's, it's honestly, it's a blessing, it's beautiful, you know, to live within a community, you know, having, even though with having diverse friends, it's like, me trying to, you know, explain to them, you know, it's my choice, my religion, and I decided to even though with my friend, she's Muslim, she, you know, she calls her when she's praying. But she, that's her choice and in the name, looking out, for this thing, good to see from a different person, you know, perspective from a person that is Muslim, but she doesn't cover up as I do. And she doesn't like, so how does that, like me seeing her faith in her, like, you know, how she see things and compared to my view, and it's honestly beautiful, like, wow, okay, you know, cover up, but you know, we still believe in the same face. Zakariya Abdullahi 12:27 And then, what is the value that you hold dearly? Salma Awil 12:32 Good question. A value that I hold dearly?. Zakariya Abdullahi 12:46 If you can't think of one that's fine. Salma Awil 12:50 value? Can you example Zakariya Abdullahi 12:57 for example, like, if I had to think about something that holds really, I would say like, generosity is it's something that I really value. So like, being generous with your money, time, all that stuff. People might be like, honesty is a huge value. All that. Salma Awil 13:13 I would say, respect is a big thing for me. I don't care like what color what race, you know, what religion you practice, respect is a huge thing for me, like, like, me seeing things like for example, I was at a coffee shop, right? And I see this guy, he was white. And he the guy who's an old gray, was when I was like, 16, it seems like a bad guy hammered down. Like, there was no seats. So and then was pretty was like it was for this is before COVID before COVID. So he was, um, there was no seats, and I was gonna get up out of my seat for him. Because, you know, he had a cane, he couldn't really sit, so I was gonna get out of my seat for him. But this white guy was right in front of me. He just, it was like me and two other girls. So it's like, it's a bunch of us with em. I'm thinking as a guy, you know, he's going to get up this respect, because he's the older guy, you know, get out of the seat for him. But no, he looked at him and like, in the guy asked them, Hey, can you please can I see sit here just for a little bit, you know, my back is hurting. And like I look just looked up and I was like, No, but the whole attitude. I'm like, Oh, God, I can't say, you know, you could have said it. No, sir. What either, you know, you kind of just politely say, No, I can't No, I'm sorry. I'm gonna sit here. But it's like he said in a rude way. And I'm like, he's older than you knew he could be your father. So it's like, I was like, No, that's like a huge thing. Respect. Respect your elders. You know, I was taught that when I was younger, expect you know anyone, you know, even though they could be a mother at the end days. Just respect. A really big thing. Zakariya Abdullahi 14:57 I definitely agree with you on that. And then how has your smallie slash Muslim identities shaped the way that you interact with people different from you? Salma Awil 15:09 Um, it hasn't been really like, how I interact with people honestly. With my so my community on obviously has been good. Honestly, I got I haven't had any difficulties with that, even with like interacting with like, white people, black people, you know, people of color is honestly hasn't been hard. It's like, it depends on who you are in your personality. That's how I see it. Yeah, so it's on one day I had a meeting with another meeting, but I interacted with two white girls. I was at the mall shopping this I think was like Black Friday. And we just met because she said I love your coat because I was wearing what was I wearing? I think I was ready to go back to the mall. Yeah, I was at the wedding party because I was picking up order from Macy's and I was reading about teen a cute little cardio Puma. And she said, Oh my god, I love your dress. I love your culture. And I'm like, I was I think she's like, what is this? I don't like it's about. I was like I say, it's something that we stay home and I'm like, she loved it is just explaining my culture and who she is. She was like, I honestly love it. And ever since then we've interacted like last two nights ago. We're at her house doing like a facial thing, because that's how well we are interacting. She's like, well, she invited me to her house. We had masks on six feet apart. But it was like just interacting with people. And it's like, getting to like no other people even just outside me because she loved my dress my flesh body. She loved and that's how we interact in my now we communicate. Right? She was like, oh my i love it. Now we like potluck friends come in new friends. Right? due to culture wise. Zakariya Abdullahi 16:57 I was gonna say so what have you learned from her though? Like, I feel you're teaching her a lot. Salma Awil 17:01 Yeah, um, she she did put me on with her. She owns a facial company with skincare routine. And she helped me with my skincare. Like, that's one thing. I've benefited from her skin. She owns her. I think it's a whole vegan thing. Like I don't really remember. But she owns her own company. She helped me with skincare. And I told her what problems I have my face, you know, due to masks, because that's really not good for the face. So she helped him with gave me products to use try out and it's like, we both benefit anyways. It was really good. It's beautiful. Zakariya Abdullahi 17:43 So what are some challenges that you face as a Somali Muslim woman in Minnesota, but also what are like some victories and wins? You kind of mentioned that you're like, I'm always vibing out like, you don't have a problem with people, which is nice. So that could be something else. But like, what are some challenges overall? Salma Awil 18:03 I wouldn't be lying if I say I'm having challenges, but one challenge would be Zakariya Abdullahi 18:15 okay, so question, man, then maybe hopefully, we can dig in what high school did you go to? Did you go to a predominantly white high school? Salma Awil 18:21 Okay, so growing up, my mom, she was very religious. So she didn't really like me going to a public school. She wanted me to go Somali school, like meaning Martin, you know, charter school, or like more of like, kids. So she took me to, at first like, when I was growing up, I went to like, global. And I went to, and I did, and then I switched out went to heritage. I don't know if you heard this cousin. Yeah, I went there, like growing up from like middle school to like, halfway my high school year, I went to heritage, and that was predominantly like, slowly, like now they try to open up since a bit since before it was a charter school. Now it became public. So it's like more they're trying to have it diverse. Like with smaller schools, like, like white and black. Both were coming out. But I transferred out of there because it's like, there's not that much of like this and atonements opportunities with a small school. I transferred out to Southwest High School. And I know and that's more diverse. And it's like, well, it comes with opportunity, but I'm over staying at with compared to like Southwest it's more diverse compared to heritage and that's like all Somali school. I loved it. I loved having like, you know, Somali friends like most of like, basically the whole class of Somali compared to Southwest, it's Asian, non Hispanic, you know, black Somali, white, compared to heritage that's just all Somali. Right. It was beautiful. But you know, I love both experiences because I got to meet meet new friends meet new people. And just it's kind of a little bit hard when you're in school. Like one thing I would say, me transferring into a new school I don't know anybody was a little bit hard. Just you know, being Somali Muslim girl is being there for I think it took like one elective was AP, and also on the back end. Yeah, I was the only covered like, Somali girl. And then I was always losing the AP class. And as I looked at them, and I'm like, Zakariya Abdullahi 20:28 start looking around, Salma Awil 20:29 I had to pull my white perky boys to like fit in. And it was really hard. Compared to my other school, my heritage. I sit down there, buddy, like, it's my people. Like, I love this, like I get to, it wasn't really hard to interact with psi. And I'm gonna say it was hard to interact. But it was like, it was really easy and going with, you know, staying at Heritage was also my kids. And it's compared to Southwest. And it's I was in that class, and I was the only black person there. That's really hard to fit in, like just comfortably I can only black. Right? And it's all Zakariya Abdullahi 21:02 white people. That was really hard. And then I had a similar experience. So I was gonna ask you two questions. One was, how to like, how was the transition? Like, you know, like, you mentioned, it was hard, but like, like, culturally as well, because like, we all live in Minnesota. When do you think like, we all have the same, like, you know, we go through the same stuff, we watch the same TVs and like, shows and that type of stuff? Like, were you still able to like when you came into Southwest? Were you like, you know, able to click with other kids there? Or was it? Did you feel like, the odd one out? Salma Awil 21:35 Um, no, not really, it was a little bit harder. At first because it was just me, but I finally convinced one of my friends over heritage, I told her to transfer with me. So don't be the only little duckling at the school like I was the new kid. So I need her so I can just, you know, have someone from my past, you know, just be with me. So I have her transferred with me. And like the first one, two weeks, I think I'll say week, it was really hard to find because it's really big school. So it's really hard to have classes. And eventually, I met my own little, like, quick, like the little group on like, Somali girl groans It was really nice at first. It was, at first it was really hard just to fit in, you know, talk to people on this stuff. It took me a while to just find my group. But eventually it was, it was a little again, easy. Zakariya Abdullahi 22:30 Yeah. And then follow up to that. So like, how do you say like, going to her and heritage and then going to Southwest? How's that influenced your life now? Like who like who makes up the most demographic of your friends like is all Somalis and Muslims are like, some guns or white people black people is a diverse or what is your friend group Salma Awil 22:50 right now? It's not part of one's life friend. Oh, well. Yeah, I want more storage for that. Another time for that. But I at first throughout my high school, my senior year of high school, it was mostly what problems they did tend towards family friends. And the most were like, I had Asian values. I have a don because I was in this city wide student leader group, where I would go there every after school. Zakariya Abdullahi 23:23 And it was Salma Awil 23:25 it was really diverse to have like, I was like the only Somali girl in that city life. Like a student leader, we we talk about, like what problems we can solve within the Minneapolis Public Schools. Well, we can fake so be I was in that group. And I was on the small girl. So it's like, really? That was that? What made me have more? More like, you know, within having Somali friends, it was like a bond. But after high school, you know, they said, you'll find your true friends after high school, you start to lose them. And that was just at that time. You know, when we're at high school, I found my little clique and then it ended, right right after high school, but for now, it's gone. Like probably one something like band aids and it's like diverse, Asian, black. Hispanic. Yeah. No, when Zakariya Abdullahi 24:19 you say black, you mean like African American, African American. I wasn't asking something I forgot. Oh, so your first year right? Yeah. First year started in September. Obviously, you haven't been on campus too much. Salma Awil 24:34 probably been on campus twice. This is like my second time. First time like to pick up my ID and stay far away. Again, this is a second time being here. Zakariya Abdullahi 24:43 Um, so I don't know how much this question applied. But how safe Do you feel in your classes like both Originally, I guess or being on campus physically, or two times. Salma Awil 24:55 honestly feel safe. I don't really want to give it like Yeah. this is my second time paying her just like the vibes it's really i feel like security over the campus i feel like it's safe but i'm not gonna know that for sure until i start coming here for classes i'm not but just by being here the two times that i was here it was i feel safe Zakariya Abdullahi 25:19 and then do you feel safe like in your virtual classes too are you like is it like high school where you were looking around you're like oh while i'm lonely Salma Awil 25:27 no no no i think that's a totally different for now because i'm you know diverse and i need to see more other people and practice being you know african you're not kidding in there but it was i feel like pretty safe in my virtual classes Zakariya Abdullahi 25:45 and then i was gonna ask you are you involved with anything in augsburg whether that's like msa pasu trio any of that stuff Salma Awil 25:55 oh no yeah but i want to probably later on not right now and because of this busy with the house family and work on those just over on my right now but i definitely want to get to that in the near future you know probably try it msa because i was in my msa in high school i was a part of that and i still want to be involved with it is variable probably not now but later Zakariya Abdullahi 26:24 okay hopefully final questions so we seem like somali minnesotans are like one of the like the most like successful immigrants to come in and like successful in terms of like i think we've been doing that too but i wouldn't say like if you think about like how many immigrant communities are in minnesota and like how fast somalis are moving within minnesota like politics and like the economy and everything like somalis are doing a pretty good job so what do you think is like the future of minnesota looks like for for somalis and for muslims yeah i feel like Salma Awil 27:04 like okay so i feel like salons like within our community and within the muslim community i feel like we're gonna prosper and grow like honestly i've seen some people from africa that don't have anything come here and they write two months there they got 10 times like Zakariya Abdullahi 27:22 wow nothing Salma Awil 27:24 less like what like mashallah you really grinding in you know all about that bag but like and it's like mashallah it's beautiful it's like how quick we come here to work you know to get an education you know to get somewhere within our lives and we are shallow we do that fast thing a little bit within our community it's like we help each other you know someone's down with someone who's doing this you know we all come together and help each other to help that person grow and that will be even within the you know muslim community with different cultures and different backgrounds and i thought that's beautiful that we do that and i've seen that here with you know living in minnesota for so many years like i seen that with different cultures because i have other adult friends and me her telling me about all this person you know they're not really doing well or is it you know they're not doing i suppose like how they see their families they come together and just help that person Zakariya Abdullahi 28:15 is beautiful yeah so like the community is very well Salma Awil 28:18 yes well very good clinic Zakariya Abdullahi 28:19 that's beautiful all right and then finally is there anything else that you'd like to share with Salma Awil 28:27 you a fun fact i can i can when i was younger i always had like a train that i wanted to learn different languages like other than you know somali english right um and i still want to do that like right now even though i learned kiswahili like i'm i have like other co workers that are connecting they speak swahili like i'm like learning how to speak it and it's my code shala i want to lend at least five masters like i want to master five languages like my two five are somali english can swahili arabic and spanish Zakariya Abdullahi 29:12 you know the basics of arabic grace Salma Awil 29:14 i know the basics Zakariya Abdullahi 29:16 to build on that yeah not to Salma Awil 29:18 build on that it's like those are the two ones i really want to build on that because i already know like when people are speaking swahili i can understand the basics like certain things i can understand what they're saying like how they just have idea what they're talking about but i still i kind of forgot so it's like if i build on that right now i could eventually you know learn how to speak it and right because i used to write and read and again the whole nine yards does too so inshallah i want to learn myself and give that are my somali it's not all that i only like touch bases on what i can yeah in' sha allah you know grown Zakariya Abdullahi 29:56 so build on all that beautiful mashallah i think you can easily do it. Salma Awil 30:01 It's like a mind over matter. Honestly, if you tell yourself you can't do it, then you can do it right. If you tell yourself you can do it, you put your mind to it, you can eventually get it. Zakariya Abdullahi 30:10 All right, awesome. Thank you so much for doing this. Salma Awil 30:13 Thank you for having me. Zakariya Abdullahi 30:14 Oh my goodness. Now, this didn't turn out
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Abdul Artan, 2021
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Speaker : Abdul Artan Today is the 27th of April 2021. My name is Salwa Hassam. This interview is for the Muslims in Minnesota projects for Augsburg University. If you could introduce yourself to the recording and say when and where you were born. Bismillahi Ar Rahman Ar Raheem. My name is...
Show more Speaker : Abdul Artan Today is the 27th of April 2021. My name is Salwa Hassam. This interview is for the Muslims in Minnesota projects for Augsburg University. If you could introduce yourself to the recording and say when and where you were born. Bismillahi Ar Rahman Ar Raheem. My name is Abdul Artan. I was born in Somalia, the district of Kismayo. January 1 1967. Thank you. To begin, can you describe how life was for you growing up in Somalia and Kenya? I was very young. When I was born in Somalia, I cannot recall so much. What I know is our, family, back then were people who used to have animals, I mean, cows, sheeps and goats. So those were, I'll say we were nomads or pastoralists. And that was the, the day to day work that we used to look after those animals. The stock. And that is as much as I can remember I can remember thick grass and vegetation. And when I was young, but then I moved to Kenya, and that is why I started my primary education. And I went to secondary after which I moved to South Africa. What would you name your biggest accomplishments? The biggest accomplishment is going to school by then, which was not a norm in the sense that kids of my age, were never going to school or sent to school by their parents. Instead, there used to be herdsman. And I say I will say that was one of my biggest achievements. Can you recall any specific events from your childhood that you would say shaped how you approach the world in general? I cannot recall specific event but I can remember as we used to move from place to place with our hearts inside of greener pastures. I can remember a night, whereby we moved from a certain area to another place. And what happened is, I slept out of the house. And then I'm in the middle of the night a lion came. And I was almost taken by that lion, but it never happened. So those are some of the scary moments of our life. But then we move back to the townships where schools and normal life was taking place. Now tell me about your transition from Somalia and South Africa to the United States. By then we moved to because of the the difficulty in Somalia and the Civil War, we move from Somalia, first, then to Kenya, then to South Africa, where we thought it was a place where we could get a better life and some sort of tranquility. That is where we started our life again back normal life. We own some shops, of course, which was not easy. It was a difficult life. Because there were also some how do I say, people are the the citizens of South Africa, the South African citizens by then never used to like the foreigners, particularly the people from the continent of Africa. And we were targets that whereby we were resettled again to United States of America. How has Islam influenced your life? I was born Muslim. And all our life. We grew up in areas where the majority were Muslims and it is our way of life and it's our way of life, our way of life. And we were taught, from a young age, how to read the Koran, and the Prophet's way of life. And we grew up with that till today. What hopes do you have for the next Muslim generation in Minnesota? It's very bright indeed. People in Minnesota, this big Muslim population, particularly the East African population. And then we have couple of challenges, but I would say, the prospects, good prospects, are bigger than the challenges, cultural challenges the mainstream American way of life, the Islamic way of life. But at the end of the day that balances out and we will be, we will have a generation that has both the formal education and Islamic education. Who are three people in history you admire most and why The Prophet alayhi salatu salam was a great leader. Who we follow his way of life. I will say that is one of my that that shapes my life. Secondly, the parents who brought me up and thirdly the journeys that I had to from one country to the other, that also shaped my life. Great, thank you so much. Thank you.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Zakariya Abdullahi, 2021
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Salma Awil 0:01 Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with Zack Abdullahi 0:06 Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old. Salma Awil 0:11 So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today? Zack Abdullahi 0:16 Um, that's a great questio...
Show more Salma Awil 0:01 Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with Zack Abdullahi 0:06 Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old. Salma Awil 0:11 So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today? Zack Abdullahi 0:16 Um, that's a great question. Um, I had classes and stuff in the morning, so I had to, you know, be awake for that. Also, this morning, I watched the Chauvin trials just to understand what's going on. It was very interesting. I do want to go into law. So I was like, this is a really good way to understand what's going on, especially so close. Ours is like, you know, our city and like, our campus. So yeah, that was those that took up a big part of my morning. Yeah, Salma Awil 0:45 they brought their first one witness in today. And I was like, Okay, I'm gonna watch it. But I kind of got a littel glimpse of what was going on today. Zack Abdullahi Yeah, no, 0:52 Salma Awil 0:53 yeah. So What year are you? for college? Zack Abdullahi 0:57 I'm a senior. So I'm going to be graduating in like, a month or something. Salma Awil Congrats. 1:01 Zack Abdullahi 1:01 Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Salma Awil 1:04 Tell me a little bit about yourself. Zack Abdullahi 1:07 For sure. So like I said, my name is Zakariya. Um, I was born in Kenya. So when you were talking about Kenya, I was like, I remember a little bit of that. But I didn't live in Kenya for too long. I lived there for like two years. And then I moved to Somalia. And we lived in kismayo for a while. Me and my mom. And then we moved back to Kenya for like, a little bit. And then we moved to Uganda. And we lived there for like two years. Yeah, no, we moved back to Kenya. And I was like, Oh, my God, this country. So um, yeah, that was that. And then I came here on is about eight years old. And I've lived here like, since then. Salma A lot from? years Awil 1:41 of traveling a lot back and fourth. So how was it I'm traveling So you said you came? You came back here when you was eight old? Zack Abdullahi 1:50 Yeah. Yeah. moved to America when I was eight, Salma Awil 1:53 eight. So how was it like going from Somalia to Kenya to here and then coming back here? Zack Abdullahi 1:59 Um, it was very experience Salma Awil of all 2:01 Zack Abdullahi 2:02 like, yeah, it was very weird, because in Kenya, like, I lived in Nairobi, in a community. Like little I don't know what it is, but it's called Eastleigh. And so it's basically a sub section of Nairobi. And there's a huge Somali community there. So when we left there and went to Somalia, I didn't know we left because I was like, oh, more Somalis? Yeah. So like, it wasn't really that different. And then when we when we went to go live in Uganda, we lived in the capital city city, Kampala. And we lived in like a majority Somali neighborhood. But Kampala was a little different. Because there was more like, you know, non Somalis, and I got to see them. And I remember thinking, like, because most of most of the people I met were Muslim, but like they weren't Somali. So I was confused. I was like, how can you be Muslim and not Somali? Because I thought I'm assuming Somalia was the same thing. And then I came here, and then that was, yeah, that I got thrown out the window because I was like, dang, like, no Muslims. barely any. And yeah, that like, the whole thing was just different. Cuz in Africa, like, you're just living your best life, like you don't have to stress about much. And then come here, and it's very different. Salma Awil 3:05 So how was it when you came here? And did you fit in with a somali community or like, slash the Muslim community? How was it? Zack Abdullahi Yeah, 3:13 Salma Awil 3:13 you said you had problems with uganda . So coming here from like, Kenya, you said something about going Somalia to Kenya, and you feel like you're still at home? Because, you know, with the Somali community. So coming back here, how was that with? You know, finding your own community? Like was that hard? Any experiences that you had with? Zack Abdullahi 3:31 Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, yeah. So when I came here, everybody's like, Oh, your fob, because you're not English. I don't remember much To be honest, like the first like, year or something, because I remember it was just like, I could understand English, but I couldn't understand it that well. So I knew what was being said, but I didn't know like, how to respond and stuff. And so I think I came like first second grade or something. And the Somali were like, he's a fob, like, don't talk to him. So that wasn't, that wasn't like, I didn't really connect with them as much. And then I went to a, like, a cadaan school, I guess, public school. And it was just awkward, because like, I didn't know anything, like I didn't know how to interact with people nothing. And then I would fight people a lot because I'd be like, Oh, you're talking shit about my mom. Like, we're gonna fight and so like, there's just a lot of fights. And yeah, so like, I didn't know anything. And then my dad took me to a charter school. And it was very small, like you were talking about earlier. And there it was still like your fault because I still didn't know English. So yeah, so they're still like, Yo, dude, you're fob. Like, we're all born here. Like, you know, speake English. So I was in ESL for like, two three years, like just trying to learn English, make sure I had that down. And then after that, things got better because like, it felt like I was part of like, you know, the society and community cuz like, I have gotten used to things by them. Salma Awil 4:52 Okay, so you said he went to a public school to did you go to? That the two changes from public transition go was it like hard, even though you mentioned. So like that to transition like what like, public to charter cuz. For me it was kind cultural thing. Yeah. Um, is that same for you? a charter what schools to charter? Yeah. that said it was kind of made your parents of more like a Zack Abdullahi 5:14 I think so because for me like I was just the troublemaker because I was fighting everybody in their mom and the public schools and my dad was like, well, maybe he goes to a school for people that look like him and like, you know, speak Somali a little bit like they can defuse the situation. So that's why they took me there. And I went to Wilson Elementary School, which was also I think they had like a Spanish Immersion program. And the horrible thing is, I was learning Spanish, and I wasn't learning English. And they're getting tired of me because you're here to be learning English, not Spanish. So the whole school is trying to me My dad was tired of it. So they just took me to the higher ground Academy, which was in St. Paul. And that places Somali Central. So yeah, and I remember when I first came into that school, I was like, I saw all the Somali boys. And I was like, Oh, my God, like, this is amazing. And I remember going up to him be like, hey, do you want to be friends? And I was like, in third grade or something. And there would be like, who else's weirdo bro. But after a while, like, I think like, couple weeks and like it was it was fine. I was still the fob because like, I still didn't know English that long. But the cult, like, changing into that, like getting to know people wasn't too bad. Salma Awil 6:18 So how is it now with the Somali community right now live from like, he said, he came here at eight till now. So was that any hard finding like you know, local mosque like masijd finding within your own community? Have you had any had any hardships with that? Zack Abdullahi 7:02 I would say not too much. Because my dad lived here before me. My mom came here. So Excuse me. So he was like, he knew all the masjids. He knew everything. So when we came here, I kind of just followed his lead. I had family and cousins that lived here. So like, I got to be with them and kind of like connect with Somali community there. I would say the only change I saw really was when I went to high school. I went to Roseville area High School in Roseville. And there wasn't that many Somalis there at all. So it was hard like to connect, and I lived in Roseville. So like, I didn't get to see that many Somalis ever. And the first time I ever came to Minneapolis, like for more than like, a couple hours when I was when I moved on campus for Augsburg, so living in Roseville and going to school, they're like, I've barely saw Somalis. And so there was a huge disconnect when I came to Minneapolis here and like, I got to meet Somalis at Augsburg and Somalis in the community. Because they were like, Oh, you act white. And you think your white, And you think you're better than us. And this and that. And I was like, all, you know, like, cuz I feel like our values, not our values, perse, but like, just kind of the way we are. Yeah, is they thought they were like, Oh, you don't hold those values that we hold. And so for me, I'm like, Oh, well, like, I want to be on time like this, this and that. And like, I remember freshman year, people were like, Oh, you you want to do this, this and that. And you think you're better than us. And you think you're not Somali and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, cool. But I think the core values still exist that you know, like, we're Muslims, and we have these values that you know, we uphold and that type of stuff. But there's little Salma Awil 8:34 Yeah, I understand. Okay, so how was it when you came here? Cuz you said on Roseville for her freshman year? How was it with you know, cuz he said there was a little disconnect. How did that go for you? Zack Abdullahi 8:48 Um, so freshman year, I lived on campus. And I had three other roommates. One of them my direct roommate was Mexican, and the other two were Somali. And like I said, like, our culture's, I guess, kind of like, me, and the other small guys weren't really like, compatible, just because like, they grew up in Minneapolis, and like, this was their area until like, they would always have friends over. And for me, that was like, not like, you can't just have random people like in the living room and in my bedroom. Now that's so like, we had that clash. And they'd be like, yo, just chill out, bro. Like, you know, and that's where the whole like, Oh, you think you're white, all this part stuck in. So it's just kind of hard to try to connect with people because it was like, all like, we do these things. And like, you don't do these things. And you know, it's just weird. But I think after a while, I was just like, finding my own thing and doing my own thing and not being like, Oh, I need to find friends or I need to find a community this and that. And I think now being a senior like, it's definitely changed where I do have a lot more Somali friends. And I think it's just about finding like people that you click with, like you said earlier and then just going from there. Salma Awil 9:50 Definitely. Okay. So this is kind of on since you're graduating. What are your future plans, like what do you want to do and why? Yeah, that's Unknown Speaker 10:00 where I'm so I'm actually accepted an offer from the U of M, the Humphrey School, literally right there to start my master's of development practice in September, so shall be going into international development working on doing Education Development, either in Africa or the Middle East. So hopefully, doing that stuff. So yeah, thank you. So, because, like, I remember being a kid in Africa and like, be like, my daughter would be like, oh, education is super important. And when I travel, like, and I go visit, like home and like mogadishu, or wherever, like I always see, like a lack of education. And people like need an education so they can build their country and their selves up. So that's why I'm like, I want to go into that field and like, dedicate my life to doing that for like, our communities. Salma Awil 10:46 Great. MashAllah, amazing, you know, going back home to like, because that I still going back home again, I see videos, or like my mom talking about it, saying, you know, we have a lack of education, they would come here for Yeah, I totally understand. You know, MashAllah. Congrats on that. So, what other countries? Have you been to? I know, this is kind of off topic? Zack Abdullahi 11:09 Yeah. I visited a couple countries, I'd say, Salma Awil 11:13 like, rather than Uganda and Kenya. And so, Unknown Speaker 11:15 yeah, I would say, I've been to like, if you Eithopia, Israel and Palestine, which is a weird one, and then Saudi Arabia and the UAE. But yeah, Salma Awil 11:26 so that kind of ties into so how is it from visiting other countries? Like, did you see other Muslim communities? Did you like, you know, fit in with, like, you know, how was it from experiencing from Minnesota from home to other, you know, Muslim communities? Yeah. Was it a little bit different? Was it like, how did that go for you? Zack Abdullahi 11:46 Um, I would say in the more Muslim predominant countries, like it was, it was really easy. In the case of Israel and Palestine, that was very interesting, because, especially being black. Because like, we went, like, we went everywhere within the country, like we went up north, like the south and then. So that was a little awkward, because like, they had, they hadn't really seen like, too many black people up there. But when we went to Jerusalem, like you, like, within the city, like there's like, the Muslim quarters, and the Jewish quarters, and the Christian quarters, and you're when you're moving around those like the Muslims, like, I don't know how, like, everybody just knows they're Somali, I swear to god is weird. It's like that type of blood. Right? Cuz like I was walking around, and they'd be like, they'd be like, yo, yo, come here, and they use go up to them. They're like, all right, like, you're Somali, blah, blah, blah, you know, you see, and I was like, What? And that's the same thing that happens in Medina. And like, monka, to like, they just, they just be yelling, like Somalis and stuff. Yeah, so it's, I think the Muslim community, wherever you go, is very connected. And I think I was surprised cuz I was like, I would not be able to tell if somebody was like, you know, Egyptian, or Palestinian or this or that. Like, I don't know, most people look the same to me. Like, I'm not gonna lie. So yeah, Salma Awil 13:00 definitely. Yeah. It is kind of hard to tell kind of people but it's interesting how you said that you went to Medina? Was it? How they told you, come here, Come here, and know, your Somali. And so that was really interesting. Was it like, a whole shock like that? Like, how did you interpret that? Um, Zack Abdullahi 13:19 I think, because so many like Somalis do visit Mecca and Medina. They're used to seeing them. So like, I went with a couple guys from Augsburg and like other other guys from Minneapolis. If I could study abroad, they did there. No, it was just like a bunch of sorry. No, no, it's just a bunch of guys that went together. Through this program called strung together in Minnesota. You might have heard of it. Yeah. So like, it's just a bunch of boys. There's like 30 or 40 of us, we all went there. And then an hour hotel is right next to like all the shops right next to the prophete masjid. So like, we were to go from our hotel to the masjid you had to pass by the shopping center And there was be like, a Samana. Like there would be yelling at the top of their lungs. And then they'd be like, come here, we have a deal for you. Okay, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's just super fun. Because, like, they're just like, you know, doing their thing. And we're just like, having fun. It wasn't like, anything weird or like, yeah, I'm trying to try to like scam us or something like that. Salma Awil 14:17 Okay, so back to Minnesota. Is Minnesota, like the place that you would, like, bring back come back as a family? Is it like a, I would say, a safe space for us and you know, traveled in different countries? Would you like to come back here and start a family? Zack Abdullahi 14:33 Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely say that, um, but also thinking of like, what I would do, like, career wise, I'll be traveling a lot internationally. So I feel like maybe like, living in different places would also be nice. But I'm also trying to think of like if like the inshallah, like having kids and like we're, you know, like constantly moving them because I hated moving when I was a kid. But I think Minnesota would definitely be a place just because there's already that that community, that structure and Then like, you know, they get to see people like them. They also have a bit of diversity where like, it's not just Somalis. But another place I always wanted to live. After visiting is Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, because it's so beautiful and like, I have family and friends there and I was just like, like this This place is, you know, so yeah, as definitely like, I definitely think about that like, like either Jeddah, Somalia. I don't know, like, I feel like there's too many Somalis to be honest. And then here, just because like, you know, like, they get to be in that Islamic, like surroundings in Minnesota, because there's a lot of Somalis in in Jeddah, like, Saudi Arabia, like Mecca is an hour away. So it's beautiful. Yeah. Salma Awil 15:40 Um, so how is it with? I would say, since it's more COVID now, like, you know, we get used to the COVID with wearing mask? How is that with you? Like, the everything is my virtual and resume? The How is that with, you know, interacting with other Muslim communities? Is that Is it hard to like, even, you know, masjid, you know, going to the mosque, or anything like that, is it more virtual? Like, how was that for you? Like, how's that road? Zack Abdullahi 16:07 Yeah, I remember in March, last year, like my dad, when he left for Somalia to visit, like, family and stuff. And I was just by myself, and I was like, you know, like, we still didn't know too much about COVID. Because we were hearing about it. And then like, once he got there, they started talking about, like, We're shutting down airports, in Somalia, all this stuff. And I remember like, being like oh Ramadan is coming up, and like, I'm gonna spend it all by myself. And that was just sad. Because I was like, dang, like, usually men who mean him would go to the masjid and like, you know, do our thing. Like, it was just like, a routine and like culture that we had. And then, like, the worst part was just not getting to, like, go to Tel Aviv or anything like that. It was just like, yeah, you were just stuck in the house. I was just there by myself and be like, just praying and stuff. But yeah, that has been, I think the worst part is not having that community because I think Muslim, like, Islam is surrounded by like, you know, the core things like having that community, like, that's why we do Hajj. That's what we do Umrah. I'm not like a lot of these things we do together as a community, so we can build, you know, that community up. So when COVID came along, he just ruined all that it was just super hard. Even now trying to go to the masjid on Fridays, like, you have to sign up on a website, or you have to be in line Salma Awil 17:19 some masjid, they give you like a COVID screening or something like that. Zack Abdullahi 17:22 Yeah, it's very, like they have a lot of things going on. So like, I have to try to find the right masjid at the right time and all this. So that does kind of mess that up on. I remember before COVID started. A lot of the guys that Augsburg and I would go to this mystery type just like a mile away. And we would go there for like holidays and stuff. Like now we can't do that. So like, This definitely just literally just came along and said we're we're I'm ruining everything. So Salma Awil 17:49 COVID COVID did really messed up a lot of things. Yeah. Um, so what do you look forward to like right now? Like, since the Ramandan is coming up, you know, since COVID? Are, I think my more masjid right now are starting to open back up? Yeah. Like, what are your plans for that? Like, how do you feel? Zack Abdullahi 18:06 Yeah, um, so my dad is back in my mom's back. So I'm like, this is at least going to be like, not as lonely as last time, it was awkward. So I'm excited for that. But also, I think, hopefully, the masjid are opened up, just like going like with my dad and my friends and just going through the motions and spending time together. Because I think, like, even with my cousins, like, last year, we couldn't do anything. So going through the masijid and spending time with them. It was just, I think, important. So that's one thing. Hopefully we can like, interact with more people too, because it's not like, you don't build like community just in the midst of like, you can build it outside too. So hopefully we get to do that. Hopefully, Eid does not ruin because last year, that was horrible. It was terrible. So yeah, I'a, let things work out, hopefully, hopefully and i'a Salma Awil 18:56 Okay, so another question I'm going to ask you is, how did your faith you know, influenced your life as a Somali man in the Muslim community? Zack Abdullahi 19:07 Um, I would say when I was like living in Africa and like more Muslim communities, I guess, like, I was a kid, to be honest, but still, like, I never had to worry about things. And I think of something my dad told me where he was like, oh, when I lived in Somalia before the Civil War and stuff like, like, he didn't see like, so like, for example, like in the Quarn, like, don't do this, don't do that. And he's like, oh, like, Who would ever do that? Like, why would people do that? And he's like, when I came here, like, he's like, I saw, you know, the things that I really I was oblivious to. And so I kind of have that sense to where I'm like, when I came here, I'm like, yo, like, my faith is super important. And I need to hold that dear. But I think one thing that I absolutely love about Muslims and Islam in general is like, the generosity part. Like we're always and Somalis like, specifically like you mentioned this to in your interview. But like, I don't think I've ever been to like Somalis were like stingy or weird about things. Like they're always so like welcoming and just, like you never feel like out of place, you know. And so that generosity for me is important because I've met so many kind people like around the world, like, Everywhere I go, like I always meet kind people. And like, anytime I'm at an airport, and like, there's other Somalis there, they're always helping each other. Yes. And so like, that's just like, so beautiful to me. And just to see, like, you know, that they have that common shared identity and like, they will never probably see each other again, but like, they care about each other and like, they have that love for each other regardless. So like, that's something I want to always have like shout, pass down to my kids and be like, yo, like, you love people. respect people. And just always be generous to people because like, if you're closing your hand, you know, like Allah gives you the risk that's not yours to keep and you know, try to be stingy with so like, always give and always love, I think would be something that Salma Awil 20:55 it's really good to hear. So little going back to what you said earlier, you talked about how you went to Roosevelt to higher ground I believe. So did you face any like as a Somali boy did you face any like hardships? Like not hardships but with your faith with? Did you feel any or conflicted with going to a public school or compared to a more charter? Because more charter I would say is more Higherground is more Somali, I would say that much you know Somali dominant, but compared to going to a public school? Was your deen you know, your faith? Was there any compromise or anything like that? Zack Abdullahi 21:32 Yeah, that's a great question. Cuz I remember specifically. So when we moved to Roseville, and my parents were thinking of like, where to send me to school and stuff. A lot of the Somali people are like, Oh, don't send your son to like, Rosemont high school because like, you know, there's like, you know, like, gay people. And there's like this and that, like, there's a weird white people and like, school shooters and all this stuff that they're talking about. And so my parents were really scared, but they're also like, do like, you know, he's, he's getting to be like an adult and like, he needs to make decisions for himself. So they let me go there. And like I said, there was barely any Somalis in my freshman year, there was like, five of us like three girls and two boys that were Somali. And I remember like, possible, it was always weird, because like, I would walk in the hallways, and I will see people literally eating each other's face and like just making out doing random things. Like, I remember like seeing people just disrespecting like their teachers and like, parents in so many different things. And I would always think to myself, like my dad saw me like, I would not make it that far. And so like, there's definitely like clashes where I was like, you know, and the hardest part was like, trying to pray in high school. Salma Awil Yeah, I 22:39 Zack Abdullahi 22:39 think college was easier. But high school I remember telling my gym teacher, like, all my friends have to go pray like, he was only on this one kid. She'd be like, no, you're just trying to skip out on gym, or like math teacher would be like, Oh, you're bad at math. So you're just trying to skip all like, bro, like, I don't like a little you take 5,10 minutes max. Like, just to go pray. I remember we had to go through this whole thing to like, you know, make sure we can pray and like get prayer spaces and all this stuff. There was never MSA at our school. So we had to start then, like, try to build community there. So it was definitely difficult just because, like, it's so easy to like, you know, like, just go into that, like, Oh, it's easier to give up than to continue to resist and fight. So yeah, Salma Awil 23:20 it is hard with the public school to like talk about you know, religion wise, because back in your time, not saying that your old. It is really hard to talk about, like prayer, even with right now with my own. Like when I just graduated high school, it was a little bit more teachers were like now getting used to like kids praying, you know, kids getting out of class. But yeah, it was difficult, honestly, I would say. So, what are you so coming to freshmen here? I was at augsburg university? Um, did you like, were you involved? Any other like, like MSA activities, or any, you know, did you were you involved in any school activities? Can you tell me a little bit more on that? Zack Abdullahi 24:02 Yeah. Um, so as I mentioned, like, a little bit ago, In high school, we started the MSA. And that, like, we started that my junior year, and I was president for the two like, junior senior year. And so, by the time when I was done with that, I was like, I'm doing student organizations. I'm doing all that stuff. I never want to see them again. So when I came to Augsburg, I was very anti, like student orgs. And I was just like, I'm not doing this. But I did try to go to like MSA events and stuff just to like, build that community because I felt like I wasn't that close to the Somalis. And, you know, I think I had a lot more like Mexican, like Latin ex friends than I did. And so I was like, because of my roommate was Mexican. So I was like, all I need to build that. That's where I went. I went to some PASU events. And then yeah, and then sophomore year, I was kind of gone most of the time out the country or like out of state, so I didn't get to do that. And then last year, I ran for president of PASU. And then I became president and then that's kind of been really like, that's been most of my Invand then outside of that just like doing like scholarship stuff and like fellowship stuff on campus. But yeah, Salma Awil 25:07 yeah, what is PASU? Zack Abdullahi 25:10 Oh, my bad, it's Pan African Student Union. Okay, great. Salma Awil 25:13 Is there anything that you want to conclude or that you want to add that we haven't talked about? Zack Abdullahi 25:21 No, I think you did a pretty good job. Salma Awil Okay. 25:24 Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Winston Heckt, 2020
Collection: Student Projects
Search Result: 1 Winston Heckt Narrator Citlaly Escobar Interviewer Minneapolis, Minnesota March 7, 2020 Narrator Interviewer -WK -CE CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his ...
Show more 1 Winston Heckt Narrator Citlaly Escobar Interviewer Minneapolis, Minnesota March 7, 2020 Narrator Interviewer -WK -CE CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his experience and time at Augsburg University. Winston Heckt graduated in 2019 from Augsburg University. So Winston, thank you for coming today! l appreciate you taking time out of your day to do this interview. So, in order to start, can you please say your name and where you were born? WH: Yeah! My name is Winston Heckt and I was born in Minneapolis. CE: What are your pronouns? WH: I use he/him/his pronouns. CE: Did you grow up in Minneapolis? WH: No, I grew up in Anoka, Minnesota. So, I was born in Minneapolis because my dad works at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital-so I was born there-but nope; grew up in Anoka, Halloween capital of the world. Spooky place. Kind of-pretty conservative/pretty white-kind of area. And so-as I was kind of bouncing out of that, looking into like where I was going to go for college-I looked at a couple of other places- CE: Oh, wait, wait. Do you mind ifwe backtrack a little bit? WH: Yeah, let's backtrack! CE: Yeah, yeah! WH: I'm slipping. Yeah, absolutely. CE: So, how was your childhood like? You mentioned briefly about it, but growing up in Anoka? WH: It was good. Anoka's a good place, I think, for-well okay, I'm kind of a liar. CE: (laughs) WH: Well actually, I grew up-like Minnesota- technically, the house where I lived is in Andover CE: Oh. WH:-which is right next to Anoka. I went to Anoka High School and like middle schools-I was in the Anoka School District, so I just like to tell for clarity and ease of conversation-I tell people I am from Anoka. I feel a much tighter bond to Anoka. But, it's a good area because it's kind of like-well, I mean it's-okay so like-politics and everything aside, just like geographically, it's you know-it's like real, cusp of suburb and country where like-like I lived thirty seconds away from a turkey fann. CE: Oh. WH: Yeah, just like wide-open spaces. Lots of-you know-wildlife and nature; so like, a great place for little kids to be-you know-running around and playing outside; that kind of thing. So like, I had a pretty good like-and also, I was pretty like-I'm mixed heritage: my mom's Black and my dad's white; and my parents are divorced, so I was pretty much raised by my white father, so I was pretty much raised white. He kind of had-took kind of-I suppose, a colorblind approach to things, you know. And he was kind of a conservative dude, so I like didn't like fully-I didn't necessarily know about-like it wasn't in my-kind of scope of understanding what was quite so shitty about Anoka. I like knew it on an instinctual level because I am also-so I am pansexual and Anoka was pretty-a pretty homophobic place. There was-when I was-it was like a little bit before my time-I was alive I guess, but I was kind of like a young kid while it was going on-but there was like a string of suicides by like young kids; middle schoolers, high schoolers. Some who were LGBTQIA community; others who weren't, but were bullied by people calling them-you know-slurs and all that. (Laughs) So, not a real great place to be for that kind of thing. So like, that part of myself was something that I had-had kind of like unknowingly just closed off until I got out of that environment and I was like, Okay, I don't have to have to-there's so much more to like, who people can be and I can just kind of live life as I see fit. But so, growing up in Anoka was pretty solid, you know. I had a good time; it wasn't too bad of a-too bad of a childhood. No. CE: Mmhmm. Well, that's good! How was your education like there? WH: It was-I mean jeez, it's public education. I went to public school and so-I mean-well, it was kind of-it was alright; I was kind of an outsider. I think one because I was kind of a weird kid and two, because I was one of like-other than my siblings-two Black kids in my elementary school. CE: Oh, shit. 2 WH: And like, the other kid had a learning disability so I wasn't even around him all the time like all the time, right; so most of the time, I was the only Black kid around. And so, I got like-yeah, people-I was really kind of ostracized and shit by my peers, so I kind of became a recluse. When my-so, my parents got divorced when I was like-kindergarten or first grade, I kind of forget-real young and my mom moved into a house that was really close to my dad; didn't have to switch schools or anything, which was real nice. But she ended up moving to Arizona partway through my sixth-grade year, and at that point, that was when I switched and started going through Anoka school and stuff. So, that kind of presented me an opportunity to like get away from my bullied past and kind of like start fresh, you know? And so, what I did then was kind of close myself off and keep a low profile and hope to not get bullied and kind of focused in on school. And so-I mean like, I liked school. It was alright (laughs). Oh jeez; you know, the crap they teach you. They don't teach you the important stuff. Like, I don't know how to do taxes; I don't know how to balance a budget; I don't know how to sew-I don't have those decent skills. The history that they teach is really suspect-I put that in air-quotes (both laugh)-you know, that kind of crap. So you know, your pretty mainstream education. But like I think Anoka is a pretty-I'm not sure where they sit in terms of ranking of schools, but I think it's a pretty solid-like it was a solid place to get an education and more or less, I did okay. Really kind of the only place-math I was kind of-I was failed. I was left behind as early as elementary school. Like, I don't know how to do-I can't multiply in my head. I have to do like the addition the long way, because my third-grade elementary school teacher -whose name I don't know, maybe it was Larson? It doesn't really matter (laughs)-she was a jerk! She didn't mean how to like-yeah, and you know right, that's kind of how the school system goes. Instead of sticking with it and teaching people stuff, it's like, Hey; we gotta move along here so if you don't learn it in time, it's kind of like hey! Shit out of luck. And then that-I ended up being okay, but then my academic advisor-somehow, I got lost in the shuffle and before you'd take Algebra Two, there was like-I think it's called Algebra with Quadratics or something like that. Well, I didn't take that class because no one told me I had to take that class--or it would be smart to because it wasn't technically required; just kind of like heavily-it would be smart to take it. So, I rolled right out of Geometry into Algebra Two without the quadratics crap, so I didn't know what the hell I was doing! And the teachers I had for that were like the two worst math teachers in the whole school and so, I barely scraped by. It kind of tanked my GPA and that kind of put a chip in my shoulder so when I ended up at Augsburg-because of like oohh, you know-Summa Cum Laude-Summa, is that the highest one? Yeah, it is Summa. So I think because-perhaps because my academic dreams were dashed in high school, I felt like I had to compensate in college. CE: Oh. WH: Yeah, I'm really getting off. CE: No! WH: What did you even ask me? I don't even know what I'm talking about (laughs). 3 CE: No, that is perfect! I mean my net question was just going to ask-can you briefly describe your high school experience? WH: Yeah, sure! So, I like-my first year in high school like-I was pretty-so like I said, I pretty kind of like a recluse when I switched over to Anoka. And slowly-from like seventh to eighth grade, into ninth grade-kind of-sort of like, come out of my shell and start to feel myself more and-my ninth grade English teacher and-there's an acting elective; those two teachers really helped me. Han environment where I felt comfortable to bust out and-you know-try on myself and be confident. So I kind of went from like-and like still really had a small core of friends and kind of-like every year, got more confident in myself and all that, whatever. And by like senior year ofhighschool, like I was-I was Homecoming Royalty and all that crap. CE: Oh, wow! WH: Like, other people tell me that I was cool and popular but like I wasn't-I don't really-like, what matters is like friends and stuff, and I didn't-I wasn't in with the cool kids really, like. I was like-oh shoot no; now I don't know how to phrase it. The phrase I had used kind of ableist language-I was like the lowest-like the threshold from like not cool to cool. Maybe at the end I was cool, but I like bottom, right; minimal, you know, that kind of crap. So I'm a lifelong musician and stuff and my band ended up being well-known-kind of-by the end of it; I think that kind of had to contribute to it. But my god, my high school experience; jeez, I don't know. I was kind of like-you know, high school is learning how to play the game. You know, it's like they don't teach-you skills; they don't teach you-you know-super important stuff, how the world works or how to make a resume or any of that kind of stuff. They just kind of teach you how to take orders (laughs), you know? So I learned how to take orders. And I also-by the end-kind of learned that it was kind of bullshit a little bit too; thankfully, I was aware. I also was a-I played football from third grade until like-through high school. And Anoka High School's football program-at least while I was there; I think before and after-was fucked up. Like really kind of-like, sadistic and emotionally manipulative to people and like just the rigorous-how they pushed our bodies and stuff, and forcing us to weights really hard, but not really-like they paid lip service to having good form, but it was also go-go-go (snaps) fingers). Like, they didn't really want you to have good form, so it was kind oflike, nah. Not a chill place. The football team-a lot of those other guys-like Jesus, those are some of the most homohobic-like racist assholes, you know, I've encountered (laughs). So, learning how to like- survive and adapt in that kind of environment and flying under the radar and not-you know, rub anybody the wrong way-was kind oflike-that was one of the more valuable things I got out of high school, as screwed up as that is. Like that was something that these children are being put through but-yeah, taught me the skills necessary in those regards. But I don't know-I really liked English. I liked art stuff. I was-I've played the saxophone since I was in sizth-I guess I don't really these days, but sixth grade through high school-and Anoka has a really good music program, so that really nice, right, and we were good. You know, kind of took it for granted how nice it is to get a break in the middle of a day and just like be with a bunch of people and make music together-you know?-in this very collaborative, group setting. That's something that I kind of miss, you know? Yeah. 4 Oh jeez, I'm trying to think what else-what I was a pretty- I was a pretty dorky kid. else was high school like, you know? Yeah, CE: (laughs). WH: I wasn't really a rule breaker; like-with crap, I learned how to play by the rules. high school and the football team, and all that CE: Yeah. WH: And then-where the rules were kind of bull-you know, especially by the end, like my senior year where I first started drinking, smoking, and staying out late and all that kind of stuff-oh yeah, badass over here! CE: (laughs). WH: But like yeah, you know; you get used to people telling you like, "This shit's the worst thing on the planet! You do this shit and it's just terrible for you!" and you do it, and you're okay. You know, you're fine. It's not like God's greatest gift or anything; it's not like-I don't want to glorify that kind of crap. But it's-it is what it is, you know? And so you're like, okay. Maybe these people-they're full of shit about that; what else are they full of shit about, you know? CE: A gateway drug to knowledge. WH: Exactly (both laugh). CE: So then, how did you come to Augsburg University? Like, what was your college process like? Why did choose-? WH: Yeah. It was kind of by-like in retrospect, it's really kind of like-I really just kind of like fell into Augsburg. I've been makirig movies since I was kid and I knew I wanted to film school since I was like a teenager-a young teen. So it was kind of a matter of like-so like I said, I looked-I knew I wanted to go to film school, so I was looking at places. I don't know, didn't really try-like UCLA or NYU, or those; I didn't even consider them. I didn't feel like I had the academics to get in or kind of, like, wherewithal. It was kind of between Augsburg and DePaul, in Chicago-and I got accepted into both. The only reason I went to Augsburg was like-they gave me more financial aid; it would have cost me more to go to DePaul. But also-you know, I visited DePaul and Chicago's cool-and maybe one day-but at that time, it was just-it's all so tall and there's so many people; I was very overwhelmed and I wasn't sure-I was like, I don't know; maybe sticking in Minnesota for college was more my tempo. So, Augsburg then was kind of like the only place I applied to. There aren't a lot of place that have a full-four year film program in the state; that's kind of unique. Like, the UMN doesn't have one. CE: Yeah. 5 WH: They are film majors there, I've since then learned but people build their own major, and they didn't advertise-like, I didn't know that was an option so I was like, okay; I can't go to the U, because I can't do what I want to do there. So, Augsburg had-they had a film program that used actual film, like true celluloid. So, I went down for a visit and I liked it alright and they left me in and they gave me decent financial aid so I like, Okay; guess it's Augsburg! So I ended up enrolling at Augsburg. CE: Yeah. What were your expectations? WH: Well, you know (laughs)-the whole 'big city feel in a small campus,' was something that was kind of pushed on me and like knowing it was a very liberal space and like-knew enough. You know, 2015-1 was just starting to become more conscious like-you know, I'm thinking about Black Lives Matters, it's happening-and Eric Gamer, specifically, that sticks in my mind as kind of like-I mean like, nobody deserves to get killed by the police like that; but that was like so-that was the first one I encountered so blatantly-this person did nothing wrong deserving of being killed for it, right-that kind of started to change my trajectory. I was interested in-you know, cool, I would go to this place and it's like one of more friendly spots; it's like the most diverse private school in Minnesota; like really friendly to the LGBTQIA community and like, okay; cool! Expecting it to be this haven of open-mindedness and just like-whatever. I was expecting-I thought the film classes-they really sold it as a hands-on, small-port community; more collaborative than competition-based-it was kind of how things were presented to me. So, those were kind of my expectations. You know, and there's also just the cultural expectations at large of what college is supposed to be for people-in pop culture and what not. It was like okay; I guess this what it will be. CE: What are the pop culture representations? WH: Well, you know, partying and all that kind of crap-not that I did too much of that crap. But yeah, you know-eat ramen, that kind of-you know, that kind of 'college-student' kind of crap. It was kind of like all I understood about it. My older sister-two years older than me, so she was already-yeah, two years older than me, went to the U, so she-I had some idea of what college was like; but in retrospect, could have asked her more about it before going into it on my own. CE: So when did you enter? 2015? WH: Yeah, so fall of2015 was when I first came to Augsburg. CE: And you graduated spring of2019? WH: Yeah. CE: Oh. So, did Augsburg fulfill these expectations you had? 6 WH: I mean·(laughs), yes and no. Certainly as a haven for liberals, but like what that means compared to like what is promised-you know-are kind of two different things. And like also-I mentioned Eric Gamer-like I was just becoming aware of just like-where my-you know, I knew I was Black but fully understanding the weight of that and like what that means and like, having not really been around alot of other Black people-or anybody that wasn't white, really-· was kind of like-Augsburg was a time where I became racially conscious; politically conscious, you know. And so-I mean it definitely kind of fulfilled my-I mean I was open-minded enough to receive it, you know, what Augsburg had to offer me. I mean just in the first couple days of like, welcome weekend or whatever, I was exposed to a lot of things that I had never even heard about and now, they're just kind of like pretty standard (laughs) stuff. You know, being conscious of pronouns and things-you know, I don't think too terrible hard to start listening and being mindful of. So, that was lit; like I am glad I went to Augsburg. I'm probably going to end up shitting on Augsburg hereCE: (laughs). WH:-quite a bit, or things about this place-but it was a good place for me. I'm glad I came here. I mean, who knows what would happen if anything else happened. Like, if I went to DePaul-who I was or where I would be. But like-nah, this was a really integral part of where I ended up these days. So like-the film program was like (sighs) was ultimately-not-leaves a lot-left a lot to be desired. I kind of kept waiting for like-because like, there aren't alot of film majors at Augsburg and so-a lot of the film classes are-it's really not until you're like an upperclassman that you're in film classes that are just film majors, and even then, that's kind of rare. So most of the time, it was like-it'd be these business-like the first class you take, Film-whatever-, it was like thirty-something people or whatever, and maybe ten of us were film majors. By far, most of the people were like, Okay; I'll take an easy credit where I can just sit and watch movies. You know what I mean? So, it was kind of disappointing because I wanted to just jump in and let's get rolling here! Like, I don't think chemistry majors are sitting in classes where it's mostly art students that are in their introduction to like what their program is going to be. I mean (snaps fingers), you kind of hit the ground running and it's not really like how things happen at Augsburg-which is, you know, alright; forces you to get creative and · work-learn to work with not a lot. But I wish there was more a-yeah, more of a focus on like (laughs), getting cameras in people's hands and getting them to make stuff. You know, you can sit in a room and read theory and make movies-you know, that's important stuff if you're going to study film and movie making and to be-like the best thing that Augsburg's film program did for me was just-I always loved movies; my whole family loves movies-like my mom was a film major and I have been making movies since I was kid. So like, a lot of love there. But like-Augsburg-my time here; really kind of the program-it's still-really kind of hit home the importance of being, you know, conscious of the impact of shit that you make because stuff doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whether you're consciously thinking of these things or not, the impact is going to be what people take away from it; it's there. You know, like death to the author-doesn't necessarily matter if you-if that's your intent and purpose going into it because if that's what people are taking away-so I'm glad I learned that and yeah-you know, movies are good fun. I'm not trying to make it into Hollywood or some shit; I don't have an interest in that-that kind of making movies. I like to do it-you know, with friends; getting around, having 7 a good time. You know, the pleasure is in the process for me and like-I haven't a lot of experience in a more professional setting, but I've had a couple. They were exciting and they were kind of fun; but you know, it wasn't like how I like to make them. Where was I going when I started with that thoguht? Jeez. (laughs) Film program-yeah they-my dream film program would be you mix-because most of the time, whether it was a theory class or a production class-really, I think it should just-like, my best semester for film was like when I was taking a production class and a theory class. They weren't related to each other-the professor's weren't working together-but you know, I was taking what I was learning in one class and applying it to the other and it's like-the projects I was working on for both of them-it was the best, you know; to be learning what's going on behind the stuff and kind of like-how to apply it and get out and make stuff. So I think from day one, they should be getting cameras-even if it's just like crap camcorders; it doesn't really matter if it's 4k or whatever, if it looks nice-just get people conscious of what they're doing with moving images and just get them making stuff they want to make. You know (snaps fingers), all the time just go, go, go. I also (clears throat)-my degree is in film and communication studies and that's because about a month before class started, I got an email from the director of the Honors Program, Phillip Adamo-former director of the Honors Program-and it was just like, Hey! You know, you're academically interesting; you kind of got maybe what we're looking for and you should think about being in the Honors Program! And like-because like, I didn't think I was some kind of burnout or anything, but because my GPA had been kind of tanked from those math classes I took in high school-seeing myself as a Honor student, you know, is like wow; the highest academic rigor. That's not how I saw myself. I knew I was smart but, you know, being smart and being good at school (laughs) are not always the same thing; so, I kind of ignored it. You know; whatever. And then, he sent me another email-wait, I think the deadline passed for applying. It's like, Okay, you know, I guess it's not going to happen; no skin off my back. And then they send me another email saying, Hey! Even though it's after what we said, it's not too late if you want to! And I was like. Damn! They emailed me twice? Why not! and I was like, Sure, I'll do it. And so, that began (laughs) my illustrious career in the Honors Program and really-that kind of-big part of what radicalized me, I think-my experience in the Honors Program in my time here at Augsburg at large. The Honors Program, your first year, you take at least two classes-I think you can take more if you want if you take-I don't know if they're still calling them-when I was doing it, it was Scholar Citizen and Liberating Letters. CE: Yes. WH: So yeah (laughs). And so, that Honors class was the first class I ever took in college; Monday-Wednesday-Friday, eight am. CE: Scholar Citizen? WH: Scholar Citizen with Larry Crockett, at the time. And Larry-he was a liberatrian and you know (laughs). But okay, my perspective going into that class right-like I too, at the time, didn't know-I didn't know anything about class consciousness or really what capitalism was or any of these other things. I knew-because my dad was more conservative, I knew Democrats 8 were shit; but I also wasn't totally-you know, rocks for brains (both laugh), so I knew Republicans were ass too so-at the time, the appeal of liberatarism-Larry and I were on a similar wavelength, I think, in terms of what things should be. Me being eighteen and him being middle-age, plus. CE: Ancient. WH: But like-at the time-like, that class was kind of a shit show. But similar to-kind of like how I left Anoka and really opened myself up and reflect on my time there and really started to realize how screwed up things were there-similar kind of thing in this class. I knew it was wack (laughs), and some of the people in there were wack, but I don't know-I still do genuinely think like in a vacuum, what Larry was trying-what I think he was trying to do-at least what he stated what he tried to get people to do what to get people to question their beliefs and you know, think critically about everything and think about different newspoints. And you know, that's all good and fine and dandy. I think his really kind of main point-I don't know if it changes year to year-but he was really about like-my time with him was about the danger of ideology and becominging like an ideologue and stuff and stuff; it's like, you can't escape being non-ideological. Being non-ideological is, in itself, an ideology; you can't really escape that. So it was kind of like-Larry, himself, kind of became the example of the shortcomings of getting too blind about one's ideology. He was only nice to me; he wasn't not so nice to others, particularly the women of color in those classes when it came down to grade. But, for me, that was the first-so that was the first class I took. And that semester, with all my other classes, got 4.0's in everything and I was like, Oh shit! Holy fuck! And it was because those classes were super I think and you know, (laughs) I wasn't taking Chemistry 101 or whatever; you know, the hard stuff where it's like a certain percentage of people will fail this class, bar and all-that bullshit. But so-being in the program in the spring, the second class, Liberating Letter, was taught by Bob Graven who became my academic advisor and was kind of a gateway into-like if I didn't take that class, I don't think I would have become a communications major. I was thinking about-I knew I wanted to have a backup plan because I didn't know what the hell I was doing. I knew I wanted to go into film school because I knew that I wanted-like I just liked movies so much and have been making them so much, and at that time, I had the naive belief that if you got a job doing what you love, it would be chill. That's not the case (laughs), but that's what I thought. So like, I ultimately knew that if I didn't try-if I didn't go to film school-whether I ended up making movies or not, or even being involved in any of that kind of stuff-I'd always regret it so you know, I got to do this. So I was like-I knew I needed to have something other than film and I knew I could pull it off because film was one of the smaller majors on campus. I didn't end up taking any business classes (laughs), but I think I was like a business minor for my first two semester, or at least my second-I think my first semester I was just a film major and I think my second semester I was like, Maybe I should take some business classes; that's an easy minor. But then I took that class with Bob-and he was in the communications department; a communications guy-and I really like that class and his style or whatver and so I was like, Okay; maybe communications! And so, I got into it and so, my sophomore year was when I started actually taking classes and really enjoyed it. Communication is a good-you know, everything is communication. 9 CE: Yes (both laugh). WH: That's what they teach you. And it's-you know, it's something that we do all the time so I think it's easy-like why I would take classes-that would be like taking a class on breathing; it's kind of bullshit, right? It's pretty self evident! But it's like, that's not the case; and it's like a discipline that mixes-kind of like, psychology and sociology; kind of flavor and so-I'm curious about people and how they work, and stuff like that so it was a good fit for me. Yeah. What else am I going to say-you got-that's a solid break. I saw you write something down-you have a question? CE: No, I mean-one thing I just want to ask you too is that you mentioned the Honors Program. I just-hold on, let me-so I guess, can you describe one highlight and difficulty of every year you had? Freshmen year, you briefly mentioned it was really impactful on your end, but just like-I guess were the most memorable highlights every year and maybe ohhh [editor's note: not so much]? WH: Oh, good question. Jeez. I think probably-my first year of college, definitely the hardest to think of a low-light. I had my least levels of commitment-well, no, that's pretty easy. During welcome weekend, they had these-you know, they break you into these neighborhoods. You know, force people into settings where they force people to get to know people; you know, team builder-kind of pit-the-neighborhood-against-each-other kind of stuff and so, they had this kind of obstacle course thing-these inflatable obstacle course thing in Murphy Square and my team was down a person. So I was designated, go-through-twice person and so-we ended up losing (both laugh). Anyways, later we-maybe it took like an hour, I don't know-it's over, time has passed; we're like done, walking back, and I was like, Oww, my wrist is kind of-feeling like-you know, not sprained; what am I trying to say? You know, you just like jam it; kind oflike eesh [editor's note: noise of pain]. You know, let that heal up over a couple of days. So I'm like, you know-okay, I'll wait this one out and like, a week goes by; a week and a half and like, okay. It's not getting any better and it's not getting any worse; it really didn't hurt that bad. It really just like-it really just kind of-really hurt when I rotated my wrist and there was kind of like a clacking sound so I was like, Okay; maybe I should get it checked out by a professional. And by the time I ended up sitting down with a doctor, I think a couple of weeks had passed and so I go in, I tell him my symptoms, and he like presses his hand up against my wrists and has me rotate it, and there's no clacking. And so like-he's like, Yeah. In ten seconds, this guy had diagnosed [that] I tore the ligament in my wrist somehow-it's actually like a common injury for golfers and I guess normallyCE: (laughs), I'm sorry, that's so funny. WH:-(laughs) I just remember him telling me that and like, fuck golf, but he was amazed because normally, it's pretty painful-it's like something you notice. It's something you like, oh huh. But for the life of me, I didn't-like, there wasn't a moment I was going through the obstacle course and I like landed-caught myself and said, Ohh rough, jeez. That's what I did it! It was afterward I was like, Oh, I must have screwed it up there. And like, if I had gone in right away, they could have just like put me in an arm's cast and it would have healed itself up. But 10 because I had waited too long, it was like too damaged and so, they had to take membrane from the top of wrist-like extra membrane-and tie together a new ligament. So I was like in a cast-from like November until like-I think I had it off before class was out, so like March or April. CE: Wow. WH: So like, most of the year (laughs). Kind of a bummer. I supposed that was probably the lowlight-maybe living in Urness. Urness sucks. Augsburg's Residence Life Department-what they force students to do with the meal plan crap is just like ridiculously expensive and just kind of like-sus [editor's note: suspect]. The buildings are not great; probably moldy and all that kind of crap (laughs). CE: Yeah WH: So that wasn't good. CE: Urness is the freshmen dorm, right? WH: Yes. Urness is the freshmen dorm-first year dorm. Except there was so many first years for me, that there was spillover. So some of the first-years lived in Mort but I was unlucky and I was up in Urness. And I guess a highlight-hmm. Honestly, maybe it would be my time in the program because there was really-those classes anyways were really just-heady, thought-kind of question stuff, so that was really kind of up my alley. Philosophy-stuff. So you know, yeah-real easy to show up and be active when it's a topic you care about. Sophomore year, the lowlights get easier. CE: (laughs) Oh. WH: It's 2016, so like the whole presidential election, you know. That was like another radicalizing force in my life-everything going around with that. I like-like election night, I found out my mom had just left an abusive-what I found out that night was an abusive relationship. Like, sneak out of the house and shit. So I went up to one of the local smoke spots where stoners go and like-when I left, Hillary was up big and then, we like got there and sat and my mom called me. And I find all this out, have a conversation, we walk back, and I walk back and by that time-maybe an hour had passed?-and like, Trump was for sure going to win at this point and it was like Aww, fuck. So like, things change (laughs), things change. That was kind of a big awakening, kind of, for me. And also, that was part of my lowest points as a film major. I was just kind of feeling-like those classes that I took, I wasn't too interested in; I was just kind of feeling like-not quite out of place; out of place isn't quite right, but kind of just like-I don't want to like; I don't know. You just need a camera and ideas and you go out and make a movie; that's all you need. But like, Augsburg's film equipment and all that stuff isn't the most robust; you know, it's pretty, kind of, scrappy, which is kind of cool; I like that vibe. But so, yeah-it was like scrappy stuff and like-a couple of-I liked some of the film professors but some of the other ones I was just like-they weren't great. It's one thing to know what you're 11 doing, and it's another thing to teach what you do; and so, I just like jeez. What am I doing? These classes aren't that great; I don't really feel like I'm doing that great in them. And that was the only year-that was the year I got a B? Yeah, that was like the only semester I got anything lower than a 4.0 was that year. Which is like-I don't know, I had somehow-I just kind of like felt-because going into college, especially as a film major, GPA doesn't fucking matter. And it still doesn't out of college; nobody asks me about my GPA, it's not getting me anything. Grad school is maybe a different story but like, I didn't really care; you know, I'm just going to give it my best and the GPA I get is the GPA I get. And then that first semester I got that 4.0 and then, the second semester I got a 4.0 and it's like, let's see how long I can keep this going. So by the end of my time, I really cared only because it was like, Geez. I made it this far; is it going to be this class that finally does it? That would be kind of like-you know, all the prior struggle would then be kind of like-pointless or whatever. I think what else-what else is sophomore year? That was kind of a rough year. Oh fuck. I mean jeez, I lived in a floorhouse that year too with a bunch of other people in the Honors Program, and that was just like not a good living arrangement. A floorhouse is fourteen people sharing a-almost like their own wing of a dorm. You have one shared living space; two big bathrooms with multiple stalls-think like public-bathrooms looking kind of bathrooms-and then like a big old kitchen with two large refrigerators and like, a giant stove and a whole bunch of cabinet space and stuff. If it's the birds-eye view of the floorplan, the bathrooms are in the center of the donut and the kitchen is in the lower-right and the living, communal space is right above the kitchen and the rest of it-kind of c-shaped-was where the rooms are. And there were only two single rooms; everybody else had to have a roommate and so like-just living with that many people and just sharing all of that-because it was a shared communal space and I had a roommate in my room as well-I just didn't have-it was very rare you had any kind of actual alone time in a space like that. And that is something I value and really need, so that just kind of takes its toll after awhile. Also, I don't want to come at people too much, but I was the only Black-no, that's not-Briana was also in there, jeez! But she was smart; she was never there. She lived there; she slept there; but other than that, she was never in there and that was the best thing anybody could have done. And Sam-jeez. But he also-my RA [editor's note: Resident Advisor]-he was never there either (laughs). He was-that was good. He was a good RA. Anyways (phone ringing in background), everybody else was white. White (emphasis on h); you know, that kind. So you know-it was that point in my life where-especially after the election-I like to--discuss, debate-I like to talk about things; I don't shy away from that. Kind of like, coming into differences of opinions; conflicts on things with like people that like-you know, we're all liberal; we're all Augsburg liberal, kind of "bubble" was the buzzword of that time-and that's when I started to see where the cracks in that are and it's like-it's not enough to be-like being liberal isn't really all that great of a thing to be. Right, it's the whole, vague progressivism calls for diversity and inclusion that don't have any analysis for power dynamics or hierarchy or structures. And like, the other people that lived there were liberal so like-I like-yeah, living with them and bouncing ideas off of them and stuff also contributed-I was like okay. So I am not like-maybe I'm not a liberal, right. Because going into Augsburg, I was like, Okay, maybe I can be liberal. Like after my first year I was like, Okay, chill. After that year, I was like, Okay. I am definitely not a conservative but I am like, you know; there's something beyond all of this. I 12 had also read-maybe States. a highlight of that year, truthfully-is a Peoples History of the United CE: By Howard Zinn? WH: It was-yeah, by Howard Zinn. After I graduated from high school, my mom-in my grad party, my mom gave it to me. She was like, "Now that you've got your public education, get educated," you know. And she never read it-I don't know how it got on her radar, but yeah-one of the best gifts she gave me because that really kind of exposed-I like finished reading it around the time the election happened too. It was like a lot of things folded into each other and happened in rapid succession there where like-I kind of just started to broaden my scope even further. Junior year (exhales). Junior year was rough. Only surpassed by senior year by how hard it was. CE: Yeah. WH: I like-had personal stuff going on in my life that sent me down a deep, deep depression and so-right, struggling through that and being a student-that shit ain't easy (laughs). And I also-so like, we entered that floorhouse; we all were friends-several people were dating each other- CE: Oh, no! WH: Big, big yike. And-by the end of that-I don't think anybody-nobody was still together and a lot of friendships-we definitely weren't all collectively still friends; people still had friends but things kind of splintered. My junior year had all this-I kind of lost the friends I gained as a first year in college and had all this other crap going on, so that was kind of rought. I'm trying to think of a highlight-yeah, that's easy! So like junior year, that's when I was having that semester when I was taking both those film classes and so-I was feeling academically, at the time. I had some of my best film classes and that's when I like first-the more professional set was that spring; like really cool. And then I worked for Residence Life that year. Let's talk about that-if we're talking about the history of Augsburg, we got to talk about what that perspective is like; get that in the book. That's a crap institution to work for and they treat their workers like ass and that was when like-I really-yeah, you know, it's funny. People think-the pop culture of what college is like is that it's full of these hippie Marxist professors that tum people into commies and like really (laughs), I did end up that way but it was not because I had-well I had one-but for the most part, I did not have hippie, communist professors. It was because there were liberals who still believe in capitalism, and capital relations, and work relations, and power dynamics and kind of slow, incrementalism, white moderate crap, but want put that ribbon of diversity on there; you know. So Residence Life was like that; Residence Life was a weird job. It was like-most people weren't white, which was really nice actually; that's the only job I ever had that was like that. So that was really chill (laughs). The only good thing about it probably. But like, they pay you-they pay you half in a stipend/discount on your housing and then half in bi-weekly 13 paychecks. The housing stipend only is enough-unlike pretty much every other RA I've talked to from higher academic places, like the University of Minnesota-other friends I've had who were RA's and stuff-they all had free room and board. You know, a pretty standard, kind of like, Why the hell else would you be an RA-kind of thing? That's the deal there. Not at Augsburg (laughs). You get free room and board if you are in RA in a first year dorm-in Urness; but you still have to pay for a meal plan, especially because Urness doesn't have any kind of cooking-thing. There's a 'kitchen' on the first floor that's like a really, kind of, rinky-dink-it would really be a struggle to like to feed oneself like fully using the Urness kitchen. So, I worked in Mort-the second, kind-of cheapest place to be an RA, only a couple thousand more than Urness. So like, even then, the amount of money that was given to me for my housing was equal to the amount that I had to pay for housing on top of that-so it kind of cancelled itself out-no wait! It's even worse than that! The amount of money I got in stipend for housing, plus the paychecks-combined with how much I had to pay to live there for the rest of the year--cancelled each other year. So I essentially worked for free but also, lived for free. It was kind of the trade there. But like, I also had to still have a meal plan even though there are kitchens in Mort; they still force you to buy into that kind of crap and like-it's just kind of one of those-really when I started to realize the absurdity and like, What are people even doing? Kind of organizational structure-like how that kind of business practice works-as an RA, we were pretty-you know, the boots-on-the-ground-with the residence. You know, I lived with these people. My personal philosophy was that like-Residence Life, they wanted you to be like everybody's best friend and like hitting people up all the time-and especially in Mort, when it tended to be upperclassmen-that's not really what people wanted. People wanted to be left alone; do their own thing and study or whatever. It was kind oflike, I'm here if you need me but like-they didn't want a babysitter. I didn't want to babysit grownass people older than me so (laughs). So they had that; they had weekly, nightly programming of activities and things that like-none of the residents-just a small handful of residents go to; but by-and-large, nobody was interested in or go to. We're openly mocked and like-we all thought it was kind of crap; all the other RA's, and even some of the other professional staff, you know. If you got them to be more comfortable enough with you, they would admit it was kind of bullshit; but because that was the mandate from the top-down, we had to keep doing this shit, and just like wasting money and all of our time on crap that like-nobody wanted! And so much of it was like-when I started at Augsburg, they started this thing that was like "Green by 2019." By the time, it was supposed to be a carbon-neutral campus and I think-maybe I'm remembering it wrong-but I think a part of that was like, trying to-I don't know if they were trying to be paper free, but really ditch that and-ahh. The amount of paper I wasted as an RA-the flyers we had to print over and over again for things these things that happened every week but it was like a new topic or a different date, we would have to print out the same thing over and over again with just like different words typed on it and just like-all just a waste. And I did the math and-not including the block stipend-like the discount-the amount you get paid week-to-week-how much they pay you versus how many hours they expect you to work-I think I was making like-it was less than five bucks an hour. It was nuts; it just was like total crap. And this was when Minneapolis-that year as an RA was when the fifteen dollar minimum wage was passed here and so like-they didn't just jump from seven-whatever to fifteen, but like-people are starting to raise it. So it was just really crap and exploitative and 14 they just pray on these young people that don't know better, you know? Don't know-want to trust (laughs) these people-that buy into the culture of Augsburg and all that. But yeah; so that really kind of-by the time I was done as an RA, I was just like really, really over it and was already-like I wasn't a socialist yet but I was starting to get there.Big part because of Residence Life. And even like liberals were like-Alright-that's when I remember about starting to hear jokes about late capitalism. It was a pretty-that's the thing; everybody was aware about how crappy it was, so people would like-our bosses included would make jokes about, "You know, that's capitalism!" but it's kind of like-we all know we can make these changes; we have ideas for how it could be better; and we to pitch it, you know? We really tried to convince people that we shouldn't be doing this nightly programming and they just wouldn't hear us out-wouldn't listen to us. Kind of crap. And they know-I think it's honestly part of their business model. It really is a shit job and it's really burnt out because you ended up working more hours than-you're supposed to really. I really didn't do that, because-so much of it was kind of bullshit. Prior to going into this, I was kind of in my head like, What am I going to say about my time at Augsburg and what college is and big takeaways and it's kind of like-one of the big takeaways is [editor's note: college] is a time when you figure out what needs to get done and what shit you can let go, you know? What can slide. Like priorities. What matters (laughs). So, I would prioritze the stuff that mattered so I could still have a work-life balance, which was already wack because I lived where I worked. That's just RA-I was always on the job as soon as I stepped out of my room. And I had roommates-like I was technically always working. Yeah, it was kind of just like-by the end, you could really just see through the crap and knew (laughs) it would be better if the people actually doing the work-it was the people deciding how the work was done. CE: Now, senior year! WH: Senior year. Senior year was a real rough one for several reasons. One of the bigger ones being it was-in October-I think it was before the stuff went down in the Honors Program, or around the same time-that the UN [editor's note: United Nation's] Climate Report came out and said, Hey, we got a decade to figure this shit out or otherwise, bye-bye human species! And that-I am still grappling with that. You know, climate grief or whatever they call it; yeah, that shit is rough. Real existentialist threat there (laughs). So, that had me spiraling and then yeah-the Honors Program. I wasn't just in the program; sophomore through senior years I was in a kind of student-advocate role. They called us the House Presidents and split us off into four houses-kind of like Harry Potter but like, not really. They didn't really mean anything; my first year they kind of did because they had monthly meetings which were mandatory-you had to show up so you actually planned stuff and did things. But after that year, enough people complained so they were like, Okay, people are sick of this; these meetings won't be mandatory anymore. So participation dropped and I am kind of too blame, because I was technically in charge of that shit for three years and never really did-you know, I could have done a lot more and help foster a community and get shit going. I just didn't, really. But so, I was one of the co-presidents of Griffin House, which is the events house and I was also on the-so my first year in the program was the director's first year as director and my sophomore year-after some complaints about Larry Crockett-I think mostly Crockett, but I think also some other-yeah, 15 definitely some other professors in the program being kind of racist or sexist or x,y,z-they got this diversity committee going and so I was like, shit; alright, I'll join. So that's why I was also on the diversity committee (phone ringing in background) and so my sophomore year was mostly talking to people about what they wanted. Junior year was mostly about coming up with plans and a proposal for what the program could do to be better. And then senior year, things kind of imploded (laughs) because-so, there were complaints about Larry Crockett and the diversity thing was created and that first class that he thought-enough people were like, This is a fucking problem that he got taken out of the class; so he wasn't teaching it anymore after my sophomore year-my first year as a House President. Then Phil taught it-the reason Crockett taught that class in the first place was because it was his pride because Crockett was a former director, so it was one of his projects. It made sense to a have a new director teaching this class and say, Yay! It's not Crockett-you know, we're in good hands! Well, it turns out we weren't in good hands (laughs). Phil Adamo likes to play devil's advocate and he's like a-racist, sexist, ableistjerk. Made fun of people with disabilities; really insensitive. I never had a class with him, so I'm not-my first hand experience with Phil is a limited in the scope outside of-in terms of race and personal decorum, so those are other people's stories to tell. But my experience with him was like-he didn't really end up doing anything while he was director. So like, the program is a beast and it's very illusive and no one really knew how it worked, except for some of the student staff that worked for the program-the Honor's Desk-so he really relied on them to figure it out. And it made sense for the first couple years but then he never really ended up taking the reigns over-so that was kind of a problem. He, under the guise of 'democratic'-you know, "I'll let the people speak and be in charge of the good!"-and I'm glad he did, it helped contribute to why he's not in charge of the program anymore, you know (laughs )-he kind of set up his own demise. So with the diversity committee, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to get on this! He was like, Oh; you students who don't really know what the hell you're doing-you figure it out and tell me what I got to do and I'll do it! So, things never really got done and people shuffled in and out-and then when things got done, because he was top dog, he got to take credit for the big strides the program is taking when he's not doing any of the work. But in that class Crockett was taken out of, Phil-the year before, my junior year-so part of it was criticized for being too white, too male in his curriculum. And so, Phil comes in with a very liberal, very surface-level identity of, Okay! We're going to come in and diversify it up and all this yadda, yadda crap. And so, he's teaching James Baldwin-which is good right, because people ought to be reading Baldwin-but so, this is James Baldwin we're talking about here so the n-word in his book. Was it the The Fire Next Time Both Years? CE: Yes. WH: Okay (laughs). Both years, he says the n-word. Like, he says the slur-not just the-like the actual slur. And (laughs) students in my junior year-I wasn't fully in the loop but people were like, Hey, that's not fucking cool, and talked to him about it and he's like, Hey okay. Kind of the understanding of lesson learned; won't do that again. Kind of weird that like this near-retirement person has to learn this lesson now, but okay; not going to happen again and that's what matters. But like-he didn't learn shit! So he comes along the very next year and same kind of problems and he's trying to pull this devil's advocate bullshit, "Isn't it giving to the 16 word to be afraid to say it?" and that kind of crap. Academic freedom was what he tried to hide behind. But really, it was about what kind of classroom environment are you going to have, and is it really safe for the diverse range of students that Augsburg calls its bread and butter? You know, they put it all in the marketing materials that this is a good place to be but, (laughs) really-in my time here, it kind of became clear they just care about getting asses in seats; numbers in books; and faces on marketing materials. When it comes to the actual analysis of power dynamics and relations and how these actual-how racism actually works and is upheld and things like that, the liberal critique is not enough to actually take these things down. It's too focused on individualistic and personal responsibility and that kind of crap (laughs). So, that happened on a Tuesday and I found out-did I find out the next day then? Wednesday? Maybe I found out Tuesday because I was a student leader-as a House President, students start coming to the other presidents and we start to get filled in the loop that-this is super wack, I don't want to come to class; what the fuck-so we felt like we had to do something. Felt isn't even the right word; we had to do something. So, Wednesday we were like, Okay. We know something happened-we know it happened so we're going to do something about it. So, we sent an email to everybody in the program and Thursday a couple of us-not me, but a couple of people-went to his classroom to monitor the situation and make sure people were okay and talk to them. And he really exploded and like-got really defensive and aggressive and hostile. And like Phil-he's a really good-he's a really good lecturer. He's a very good orator; very good with words. He's a good speaker; he's got that charisma on a face-value, so he uses that in personal relationships so like-he can kind of gaslight you, manipulate you, and tum situations on their head-shot I don't want to bounce the table-so it's very hard then, in retrospect, to say, "Oh, he did this," because it's so subtle and so whatever that-having documentation or video evidence or audio is really kind of the only way-you have to be there and hear it out to really get what was going on. So he got recorded and stuff and he freaked out. That Friday then-because that happened on a Thursday-, the class was suspended. Campus administration finds out me, and the other House Presidents, and people that had stepped in-people that were in the class-met with a couple of-I remember the Dean of Students; Chief Diversity Officer; and like-who other? CE: Vice PresidentWH: Yeah, the Vice President of Student Affairs. Not like the top-top dogs, but right, top people. You know, we felt the meeting went well; they were very distraught-visibility distraught-by what happened, and they were sympathetic and very much on our sides. We agreed on next steps-like, he wasn't going to teaching the class anymore but we weren't going to cancel the class. We were going to find a professor for the class that students could all rally behind-who they enjoyed, who could then take over the rest of it and stuff. One of the other complaints he had-they didn't get to it yet, but one of the texts that was down the road for the class was really Islamophobic. He'd been confronted about it earlier and refused to take it off the curriculum, so we got them to be like, We shouldn't be teaching that book and stuff. So, the weekend happens and like, we knew a,llthis stuff-these people we'd have this conversation with. But like-there's a hundred people in the program and like-basically, a hundred people didn't know what the fuck was going on because they weren't in there and there 17 was no communication with them. So, we felt like we had to-like, people were owed an update, especially the people in class were owed an update. You know, should they even show up to class that next week? So, we sent out another communication that was very tame and mild that was just-you know-things that we agreed upon with that adminstration in that meeting. And they came at us like we were making shit it. It was very much like-they told us-they legit told us that they were not there doing damage control, but that's exactly what they were doing and that's what they continued to do; so, we had to keep pushing for transparency and action to hold them to their word. And, to do something about this and Phil. He started freaking out right away being like, Academic Freedom! You can't fire me because of (noises), but it's like-fucking, slow your roll here! You know, we want some real justice here in this situation, which doesn't necessarily ostracizing someone. You know, best case scenario would have been, Hey, learn and don't be a dick (laughs). But, that didn't happen. We made an effort to get restorative justice practices used and circle work, but the campus-kind of-co-opted that and took the teeth out of it and did it in performative ways. So, that was all a very disheartening-he ended up removed from being the director of the program, but he kept his job and then quietly retired. Maybe he was forced down because-the Minnesota's version of the ACLU, they have some other acronym [editor's note: AAUP]-their guideline's are that like: You can say that racial slur-the n-word-as long as it's-as you're saying the word; calling someone the word; they see that different. Calling someone outright isn't okay, but speaking it is okay somehow (laughs). They were like-Augsburg can't just fire him just for that because they'd get their ass sued-so I've said other things-so like, other people kind of knew their piece of the pie, but once we started to combine forces and really talk about what was going on in the program; what was going on with Phil; it became very clear there was a long pattern of manipulative-kind of abusive behavior that was way beyond the scope of saying then-word class. As fucked up as that is, they could have nailed him on a whole lot of things: he was threatening to take away people's scholarship-something he had no authority to do, anyway; even if that could be justified, he wasn't in that sort of power position to do that-so like, a whole lot of crap where like-I, anyway, think that if I was employer or something, I wouldn't want that kind of behavior-that's not the kind of person you want in your workplace. I can't understand why they tried to shield him. And so, this all kind of unfolded over the next couple months. That happened in October-November maybe? CE: October. WH: It was like the spring-it was second semester, January or February when I found out that we was going to keep his job, finally. They stretched it way out and like-you know, they know what they're doing. They know that we're students with our classes and like, we're going to graduate in a couple of years so they just have to drag their feet. Eventually, anybody that remembers what happens is gone-that's the thought process anyway, I think. And so, that was just a very disheartening--disillusionment for me, where all these people-it wasn't like I was like, Phil Adamo, my hero! Or anything, but was somebody I considered a colleague and I had worked with and had a-you know, close isn't quite right, but a working-close relationship. I'd seen him twice a week for three years (laughs), so that' a a lot of time to think you know somebody and all that. And Augsburg-so like Phil and just, how the campus at large took 18 it-some of the other Honors professors and folks went on his side. So, when the Film professors and some of the other professors I liked, I was really disappointed in their-take, you know; and you'd feel like a jackass (laughs), you know, for having thought that-you know-I don't know; that reaction to that event means they see me differently than I thought they did. You know, that sucks (laughs) to figure that out. So yeah, that also sent me-that, and that climate change thing really sent me spiraling. And then, the combined burnout of being in my senior year, and taking a lot of classes, and trying to wrap it all out with the stress of getting it done and finishing all that-really burned me out. I'm still recovering, seriously. I'm just kind of now, I think, recuperating from the burnout-the toll of the culmination of the four years of college plus that crap on top of it and what it takes. So, that's maybe a lowlight.But also in that, you met some really great people. Not met; I knew them-you know, we formed a much deeper bond and connection there, and that was like-it sucks that all that shit had to go down for that to happen, but I'm glad those relationships formed. Oh jeez, I suppose-in between my junior and senior year was really when I started to-that's when I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X and I started to like actually read socialist literature. I found my way to being anti-capitalist via being anti-racist, you know? Your race analysis critique isn't complete if you're not taking in class and economics into the fold. Like that's what-once you get out of the American public education system, that's what like MLK, and Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers, and all these other Civil Rights folks were talking about the whole time-and so, all of that kind of culminated. That year-kind of-sent me pretty anti-yeah, I mean the reason Phil and this school were able to do that stuff because of the power hierarchies there. Not that if there weren't any power hierarchies, people wouldn't still be dicks, but it's like-people are dicks and then they're put into positions where they wield absolute power over people and that's where shit get wacks, you know? (laughs) CE: That was alot. WH: That was alot, yeah (laughs). CE: What would you say were the most impactful things that occured to you? I know the Honors thing butWH: Yeah. The Honors thing but also-I didn't talk about it but I did URGO; undergraduate research the summer between my sophomore and junior year and that was really impactful for alot ofreasons. That kind of taught me a lot oflessons. I learned much more about life than what I was researching-it was kind of creative project with me and two other film major friends. In retrospect, I don't know how that-if I was in URGO's position and they came to me with that project, I would have turned it down, you know? Like I'm glad they let us do it and it was important to be learned, but it was kind of crap. It wasn't great. Since then, I think URGO's since changed their application process; but, they were open to creative projects, but there had been initially been so much more STEM-focused, it was kind of hard to fit into their-required boxes of what you needed to have, and do, and be a creative project. So, we ended up with this kind of Frankenstein-project that was not really legitimately-like we tried to do research and tried to be creative, so we half-assed both. If we would have done or the other, it would have been solid but 19 we tried to do to much. We felt like we needed to justify them giving us that much money to make a movie or something, so we felt like we needed to have some academic-research-rigorous kind of thing. So we did it that summer and like-you know, I think my experience was different than my two partners on it; so much of what I did was bullshit. Like, you're supposed to work forty-hours a week, and there's no way I was pulling anywhere close to that much time (laughs) at all working on the stuff I had to do. But I was still doing what I needed to do at the same time, so like-that was really kind of-that was my first time I supposed to do the forty-hour work week and I learned that's crap. I don't know-that wasn't my tempo anyways; and so I learned that, and how to do that kind of stuff. But really, that summer, we-just me and my professor, who advised the project, presented our findings at this conference in New Mexico. CE: What year was this? WH: That would have been 20-2018, in between junior and senior year. Yeah. CE: When you presented it? WH: Yeah, when I presented it. And that was kind of like-I'm still-at that point, I was more considering-I was starting to wrap up my college career and I still didn't really know what I wanted to do, you know? So I was kind of being like, hmm, you know? Is teaching or being a professor something I want to do? It's still kind of rattling around in the back of my brain, but I was lot more like, "Aww jeez, maybe that's it!" for me to do. So, that experience-this academic thing and meeting a bunch of people that like do what I thought I might want to do-was really nice and cool to learn. And it was kind of like-I knew what I had done was kind of bullshit and the project was bullshit-and it was a project that I loved very dear, but it was kind of bull-but like going to this thing-and these were like grown ass people; professors; people who are supposed to be teaching people like me-and like, somehow, my bullshit project ended up being-and there's alot of stuff going on there, so I couldn't see it all; so who know, perhaps maybe I saw all the bad research and all the bad presentations-but like, yeah! I was blown away my project was hanging there, right alongside projects by people who were double my age; people who had been doing this longer than I had been alive, you know? And they had film screenings there-films made by professors that were like some of the worst movies I had every seen! It was kind of like, Okay, jeez-opposite of-everybody else got knocked down a peg in my mind. Like, movies are hard and we're all just kind of scrambling good stuff and like-prior to that, I felt very much like I had no grasp in terms of where I stacked up to anybody-like if I actually had any type of skill; any kind of merit to the stuff I was making-so that conference was really nice because it gave me alot of confidence. I wasn't like, "Wow!"-my project was still bullshit-but all of this was kind of bull and everybody was scrambling around. So yeah, learning that lesson that nobody's really better or worse than anybody else was kind of a precursor then to my senior year, where I really just-kind of lost faith in everything and being like, it's all kind of-crap, a little bit. So yeah, I think that was really one of the main, impactful things. I'm trying to think what else-it's all kind of impactful. My junior year, I made a movie for one of my classes than ended up in the Minneapolis Film Festival this fall. 20 CE: Oh yeah! WH: Yeah! So that was really cool and that was just really gratifying thing to watch, you know-something I had made up on something that's like a movie-theater size screen. Because like my junior year, I had made it into a couple of other film festivals-there's this film festival called, The Mespies, here in Minneapolis that plays-well, it's actually in Columbia Heights. They play in a movie theater in Columbia Heights and I got in and they're going to play my movies! But they screwed up-something got messed up and screwed up and they couldn't play my files; so even though I got into the festival-and I have it on my resume that my movies were accepted and screened-they didn't actually show my movies. So, that was really-kind of-disheartening moment. Like, I was already down in the dumps and stuff, and-I invited people out there to see it and I didn't have a lot of people to invite in the first place-which I was sad about-and then the four of the people that showed up, they couldn't even watch. My stuff couldn't even show. So the next year, to be in a much more like legitimate-not legitimate, because The Mespies are cool and they're all legitimate; people make an art-but like, yes, bigger scale-type of thing and actually get to see it; that was really cool. Like if I never make a movie again, I've got that experience. CE: Yeah! That's actually super dope! Congrats, that's awesome! WH: Thank you. CE: Yeah, I don't want to talk more about the Honors Program. Want to mention anything else? I guess, what would you say were the results of it? WH: The results of what? Of Augsburg? CE: Oh, the Honors Program. WH: The Honors Program? CE: Like afterwards, because you intensely involved in your senior year. WH: So I mean, I was kind of intensely involved and part of that, then, was like-Augsburg loves its committees, so there was a committee to investigate the program and figure out what needed to be done. I was kind of of the opinion that we should nuke the whole thing (both laugh); like, let it go. Or just like, have it so reimagined that to even call it the Honors Program wouldn't quite be right. Things ended up being slow and taking a lot longer than we had initially thought we would or talked about being like; once again, I think that's kind of part of that thing that university administrations know-they can just drag their feet and the passion will die down because people just lose faith or move on or graduate, whatever. This committee that I was on that tried to investigate the program was really taking baby steps and so like-I was graduating, so I wasn't keep doing it-so I was like, Hey, you know, like make sure-like I didn't really-part of the reason I became president in the first place and why I stuck around and got involved was because the program is really white. I was one--once again, I was one of the only 21 Black people in the program. I think the only Black man in my year in the program and so I was kind of like-my perspective is one that could come in handy in these situations (laughs), you know? And so, didn't quite have faith that they would keep fighting without me and I've heard this year from people at this school, it sounds like they're not kind of quite-I'm not involved anymore so perhaps what they've uncovered led them in a different direct than we were thinking, but they're not doing what we talked about when we were still involved. But like, the good that has come out of it is that people-we really started to understand how power works at this institution and how seeded these problems are; it isn't just an asshole professor here or there-it really is the whole structure of how things are run and who's in charge and so. I think maybe not getting what would have been best situation with Phil Adamo broadened our scope of like, Okay; we can't fix this, but how can we make it so that kind of shit doesn't happen anymore? So, there's efforts right now too, to try to get more wide-systemic change at the campus that I've been involved in, but other people are really starting to take up the mantle more-since I am an alumni, I am slowly starting to move on. So, that's a good one. And yeah, I supposed my takeaway-I was already skeptical of things, but-now I am very skeptical of all institutions, and I think that is a healthy thing, you know? I think that's a good-I think it's good to-like showing up at Augsburg, I was saying yes to everything-that's also how I entered the program, because I was asked, you know? And I became a president and I think somebody like-I think I might have been nominated, but kind of fell into a lot of the things I ended up doing. Kind of with the, "Oh yeah, come on! This all seems good," you know? Having good faith in everything. Like I want to trust people and believe people are good-and if you're not going to have love for people, what are you doing around here?-but now, I am a lot more-I will be asking questions about why are we doing things the way we're doing? Residence Life kind of taught me that; like why-you know, because people want to be kind of marching along with the ways things are done; even when we all know the ways the things are being done aren't good (laughs), you know? Not only are they not great, they're not necessary. CE: Well, to put in on record, we got a lot of things dones. MSS [editor's note: Multicultural Student Services] are fully staffed now, full time; we also had Joanne Reecke's position to full-time-Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer; dismantled the Honors Program-which was a good thing, for the most part; and I would say we also broke the glass ceiling. We made it visible that Augsburg was not a liberal utopia. WH: Yeah, for sure; the atmosphere on campus really change and like-people were-people knew, but a lot of people-the people that were not really helping the people that needed the help, they thought Augsburg really was what it was selling and so-having that big, public rupture and having students stand up for themselves kind of forced them to grapple with that. CE: Just want to put it on record, that was because of student efforts, not because of Augsburg's administration's efforts. WH: Yes, exactly. CE: Students pushed for that. 22 WH: Yes! And I was like-ten ofus really got that going. It ended up being more than that-with other folks, I probably don't even know, doing stuff-but yes, that was also another good lesson. If like ten, burn-out, clueless student can make that kind of change that rapidly, what can we do? CE: Facts! So, I have a few more questions. So, I have to ask to ask this question: do you think Augsburg fulfilled their mission statement for you? WH: Could you read the mission statement for me? CE: Alright. "Augsburg University educates students to be infonned citizens, thoughtful stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. The Augsburg experience is supported by an engaged community that is committed to intentional diversity in its life and work." WH: I think maybe, but probably not in the way that Augsburg expected (laughs). Like what they think that means and what I think all that means, and like what all that is for me-definitely became a lot more critical of a thinker here, you know? Hopefully informed and thoughtful. So yeah. The part that's bullshit here is really the second part of this: the engaged community dedicated to intentional diversity. Committed to intentional diversity; I think that's true. Augsburg intentionally changed how they recruit students into this school; about fifteen years ago, it was pretty much just white people. Now, it's majority non-white, right? So like-that exposure-they fulfilled their promise, but that opened with it the faultlines of what that leaves out and what-diversity for what, you know? What's it for, you know? Is it just to pad your number and try to get good press? Or is it to like actually support and help marginalized people in this world? If that's what they mean by intentional diversity, I think they're missing the mark. But if they mean just like getting people here (laughs), they did it. I went to Augsburg. CE: Do you think the Augsburg experience prepared you for your career? WH: No. I mean I only have the job I have right now because of Augsburg and my academic advisory. My academic advisor has like-not quite; I don't know if friend is quite the right word. Colleague?-some kind of relationship with people where I work in advertising and one of the PR-kind of the head PR dude where I work-knows Bob and he had kind of deal because he does an internship-three internships a year: spring, fall, and summer. So like, my academic advisor kept having really good-like kept recommending really good people, so they just made an arrangement that he would come to him for-he would be like, "Hey! Find me my next intern," and so he would pick people. I was lucky enough that he liked me and recommended me, so I was an intern there and I was doing copywriting-which what I am doing now; I am doing video stuff. But just because I was an intern there a couple months last fall, they knew who I was; then I ran into him randomly and he was like, "Hey! Send me your resume, we might be looking for video work," and then that's how I got my job. Now, I can-you know, I am making my loan payments and paying my bills and-I'm still arguable paycheck-to-paycheck, but I am not stressing because, Oh shit, maybe I should split money between groceries and-I have a bit more of a padding. So I only have that because of my connections to Augsburg. 23 But, in terms of like-that's been another thing. I've been working at this job for months now-yeah three months now. Oof, coming on four now, I supposed (laughs)- CE: Wow. WH: Yeah, wow. Time flies when you're grinding (both laugh). Just in that first month working there, I learned so much more than I learned in my film classes at Augsburg. The film classes are definitely a lot better on the philosophical and theoretical wherewithal when it comes to film; when it comes to the technical stuff-and it's not even because they don't have the fancy gear-like one of the classes I took was an editing class, and it had the same problem where-I think the majority of the people weren't film majors and the other-there was a cluster of film majors and even in that range, there was a wide-range of people who were in their first year; first ever film class people-I think I took that maybe my senior year? I think I took that in the fall of my senior year or maybe in the spring of my junior year-but I was wrapping up my time as a film major. I only had a couple of classes left, so where I was and what I kind of needed out of that class was kind of different from other people. So, because they were trying to make it a class-if you didn't know shit about movies, that class was really hard because it was not-and the professor wasn't the best, I don't think. Not a fan; I had classes with them and no. Anyway. It wasn't a good fit for them; wasn't a good fit for me. And like, it was an editing class in Adobe Premier, which is industry's standard of what movies are edited on these days. And like-there's so many hard things and it's like kind of an obtuse-because it can do alot, it's kind of a hard thing to jump into; not super user friendly out of the gate. But like even now-shit, I could probably like roll in and get people more practical-you know, advice and lessons for like how to use it and what to do than what I think I got in my time. That was kind of disappointing. I'm glad I learned that shit, and I am glad I went to Augsburg, and I am glad the film program is how it was for a lot of reasons-me the freedom to be creative, but like, oh shit! Jeez-it was kind of really disappointing that this program- that was dear to my heart with professors that I like-don't have it. Didn't have it together enough to actually be teaching-actually setting people up for success. I am really-I feel really in-over my head alot on the job. You know, I am making it work-no doubt-but yeah, practically no thanks to Augsburg's film classes. Really just through the time, experience, and hours spent in the software tangentially working on projects in the film class, but not the classes about how to use the gear. And then-kind of goes across the board, for editing and for also camera and using lighting-I don't know how to light shit. If I was trying to work in Hollywood or really trying to work in the industry-like I fell into advertising. So like, I'm making a living with film-with like moving images-by accident almost. So, I'm like chill about it. But I was like going to film school to be like Jordan Peele or Greta Gerwig-then like, Augsburg is not the film program for you. They do not set you up for that level of work, which is kind of-which is good for me, because that's not what I want; but, it's kind of a bummer. CE: Do you have any advice for future Auggies? WH: Oof, jeez. Get involved and pay attention to what the hell is going on. So many people during my senior year-even in the Honors Program-were just like really out of the loop with 24 what was happening and at first, it was hard; the administration was being very obtuse and not very transparent. But even when people were trying to get people to know and like understand what was going on, people didn't know or didn't care to know; whatever. And move off campus as soon as you possibly can. Seriously, like it's nuts. They make you sign up-make you re-up your housing-super early in the year. They make you do it-is it like February? CE: Something like that, yeah. WH: It's coming up around this time of the year, if it hasn't already happened, and like-you get off campus and most places aren't listed a couple months before your lease. So if you're trying to move someplace in September, you probably can't even find it-it's probably not even up for grabs until maybe May. Like maybe when school's getting out for the year (laughs). So yeah, they do that to make you be like, Oh jeez! Don't have any other options, have to move back on campus. So yeah, seriously. You'll save so much money. It's ridiculous how much money I saved moving on campus, even thought I'm paying for utilities and paying rent and paying for transportation to and from school. And not even a meal plan-so much cheaper to not being on campus. It really is, frankly, disgusting the way-what they do. But I think that's their bread and butter-that's how they make money, is the room and board, so. CE: Would you like to make any other comments about anything I didn't hit on? Talk about? WH: Augsburg. You know-I ended up being involved, but I feel like I barely touched the surface on everything that is going on at this school. There's a lot of dope people in their own comers that just don't end up ever crossing paths for whatever reason: buildings are quartered off by majors or whatever, but you know; yeah. I mean, hopefully they get it together and are carbon-neutral by 2030. Carbon-free even better, because I hear carbon neutral and I think carbon-credits, you know? That's not going-that's not enough. We can't offset it-we have to stop. So, we talked a lot about Augsburg but not about the neighborhood around it, you know, like Cedar-Riverside. Really dope place-really glad I got to live in this part of the city for a couple of years. Like Seward is right there-a lot fo really cool things going on in this community and there's a healthy tradition of-you know, radical folks. Organizing, being conscious. Art. Lots of cool stuff. So you know-Augsburg, with all of its problems, I have the suspicion it's hardly unique to what a university is. You're probably going to find it everywhere. So you know-I can't. I'm glad I did it. Am I proud to be an Auggie? I don't know about that! But I am one, and that's something that's going to stick with me and even after all that and the illusion/disillusionment, everything shattered-there's a place in my heart for Augsburg. There's also-I kind of avoid it as much as I can; try not be here. It's complicated kind ofrelationship. CE: Well, thank you! This is the end of the interview. So, I appreciate you again for your willingness to be interviewed and I will send you a copy of the transcript. I loved everything you said. WH: Thank you. 25 CE: So thank you. WH: No, thank you. End of Interview 26
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Bill Green, 2020
Collection: Student Projects
Search Result: INTERVIEW WITH BILL GREEN THE AUGSBURG ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewed by Hannah Dyson ©2020, Augsburg Digital Archive 1 Interview with Bill Green Interviewed at 710 22nd Avenue South (Memorial Hall), Minneapolis, USA Interviewed on March 4, 2020 Augsburg Oral History Project Interviewe...
Show more INTERVIEW WITH BILL GREEN THE AUGSBURG ORAL HISTORY PROJECT Interviewed by Hannah Dyson ©2020, Augsburg Digital Archive 1 Interview with Bill Green Interviewed at 710 22nd Avenue South (Memorial Hall), Minneapolis, USA Interviewed on March 4, 2020 Augsburg Oral History Project Interviewed by Hannah Dyson Hannah Dyson-HD Bill Green-BG Time Log 0.01 HD: Alright, so uh, do you have any questions before we get started? 0.05 BG: Oh, I'm in good hands. 0.06 HD: Okay (laughs). All right. So I'm just gonna do like a little introduction, and then we'll get, we'll get into it. So, uh, today I'm interviewing, uh, Bill Green, a history professor at Augsburg University for the Augsburg Oral History Project. It is March 4, 2020 and we are in, uh, Bill Green's office in Memorial Hall. I am Hannah Dyson, the project interviewer. Uh, so to start, uh, can you just tell me a bit about your background, where you grew up? Um. Where your interest in history came from? 0.39 BG: Um, well, I grew up in New Orleans. And I came up here to go to college, Gustavus Adolphus College, and I, um, had always had an interest in history. Uh, so I majored in history in college. But when I moved to the cit- to the Twin Cities, I got into, um, psychology, and, um, worked on my degree there. And then years later, I, um, worked driving trucks (laughs). And I lived in California and then came back here and, um, made TV guides, wrote the great American novel, and then went to law school (laughs). So all of that prepared me to teach history at Augsburg College. 1.29 HD: Sure. So, um, what, what brought you to Augsburg University? Like I know, originally you were a lawyer for a little bit and you know you did all these things. So what made you decide that you wanted to be a professor? And then what was your journey to Augsburg specifically? 1.46 BG: I was practicing law downtown, uh, at the time, uh, that my first scholarly piece came out. I wrote an article for Law Review, um, about a slave trial that, that occurred in Minneapolis in 1860, and, um, I was doing legal research at the time, I was preparing for some kind of litigation, and - for my boss, I was junior counsel. I came back from the law library one evening after having spent ten hours in the in-in the law library for you know, just that one day. And my assistant had placed on my desk the reprints of, uh, the article that I had just published. And I looked at it and I said, you know, this is kind of what I prefer to do. And, um, I didn't know exactly how to jump from law to Augsburg, but I did know at the time that Augsburg was looking for, um, an African 2 3.22 3.30 American who could work with young people, young African American students. And um, you know, I signed up for that. And that's what got me to Augsburg. And in talking with the dean at the time, you know, she says, you know, do you want I-I told her I wanted to have connection with the academic side. And she said, well what department are interested in and I said history. And so she, um, gave an appointment to me that would allow me to do counseling, but also to teach a course here and there. And that kind of opened the door for me t-to to to get more into the history department. HD: Sure. So what, um, what prompted you to write that first, uh, publication that you did? BG: I, uh, was looking for a topic for Law Review, and, um, I learned about, uh, the slave trial that, that, that, that, that didn't make sense to me because I thought of Minnesota as, as free soil state and a place where you don't expect to see slaves inhabit. And so everything about that case, from what I understood at the time, um, defied expectation and yet, um, I was curious enough to kind of see how it worked out. What does this say about Minnesota? Um. So it was sort of, uh, you know, when you're when you see a loose thread (laughs), you can't you know, you, you know, absently you start picking at that loose thread, until finally the whole sleeve falls off. Well, in this particular case, a career fell off, you know, because (Hannah Dyson laughing) I was interested in pulling at that loose thread that became my interest in history. There's so many elements about Minnesota that didn't make sense to me, and no one could explain it to me, no one thought of themselves or thought of the state as having much of a history. And, um, that of course, wet my appetite, wetted my appetite, t-to want to explore. So, um, it was, it was almost happenstance. I had to come up with an article. My, uh, brother-in-law who is a-a-a figure right out of Cheers, you know, the character who knows everything about everything, set, was reading some article and came across a reference to the slave case that appeared in the footnote. And after telling him that he was wrong, um, I found myself really sort of looking it up, um, and that led to a number of other issues that I thought were, um, were shedding light onto un-untold story about Minnesota and race relations. And I always thought that was sort of interesting in of itself, because I grew up in the 1960s when, um, Lyndon Johnson was president, but when people like Hubert Humphrey and Fritz Mondale, Don Frazier, uh, Orville Freeman and all these guys were, were, were playing, filling national roles and advancing civil rights, uh, agenda. You know, it struck me as an odd thing that all of them came from Minnesota where I didn't think black people lived. And so my curiosity about Minnesota just deepened. Um, what is it about the state that would foster that kind of leadership? What is it about the state where the elector-elec po-pop or the populace would elect people to advance an agenda that did not immediately apply to them, because there is a small, small population of blacks in the state. All of that was, was, um, um, was compelling, you know, enough to make me want to make 3 7.15 7.22 7.23 7.32 that a career, try to make some sense out of those things. And I think that in doing that, um, I-I was able to gain, and do continue to gain, insight into human nature that, you know, sort of important but since that one tends not to see the, the, the racial history of Minnesota as a way of understanding politics nationally - racial politics nationally. But, um, I found that to be so, so I was just drawn, you know, one thing after another, one issue, one question, you know, that persistent thread that wouldn't, wouldn't get me, get me to the end of it, you know, I kept pulling on it. HD: Sure. So, um, did that research kind of inspire the first classes that you taught at Augsburg? BG: Oh, yeah. HD: So do you remember, like, what your first classes that you taught were and kind of how you pulled, you know, from your research into those classes? BG: Hmm. Um, the first class I taught was on, on, um, African American history, not as opposed to African American, a-as opposed to civil rights history. Um (laughs). But it was, it was, uh, okay, I'm just going to tell you this, okay? (Hannah Dyson laughs). We won't tell anybody else. The first day of class - I mean, by this time, I had been a lawyer. I had served in the, in the military. I'd done, I'd been a union labor organizer. Um, I had been in situations that are stressful, at times scary. Um, I did not think that the classroom would be very intimidating. So I sat in my office leading up to having to go to my first class and I start feeling what I thought were bugs crawling all over me. And I couldn't understand what it was, especially when I didn't see bugs, like th-they were beads of sweat (Hannah Dyson laughs). And I said, uh mmm. What is happening, my whole shirt was saturated with sweat from anxiety. And I remember going into the classroom and I had a lecture that I had actually timed. I was going to read it from word one to the last word. And I-I had it timed so I'd be done with it in 55 minutes. So that when I was done, I could get up and walk out and never once look at the students and I did that for maybe half a semester. And the evaluation was, was kind, you know, he seems to be a nice guy. But you know, he's a really good reader (laughs). That's kind of the thing, you know. Um. You know, I began to feel a sense of ownership with the material because I was really interested in it, I could see that there was some interest in it. And that sort of drove, drew me out more. Life experiences began to make sense to me, in terms of what seemed to be the motivating forces behind the people I was talking about. So these individuals weren't just one-dimensional references in a book, but they were human beings who are motivated by human experiences and passions and what not. And being able to talk about it from that perspective seemed to allow me to connect with students, um, as well as with myself. Now the second thing I want to share with that is this. (Pause). Um. My parents were, uh, involved in the 60s. The civil rights stuff, but they kept it away from the house. They kept it away from me in effect. I guess they were protecting me. And so I had a 4 11.18 11.24 11.24 11.25 11.27 11.27 11.30 11.30 11.32 11.40 lot of questions for which I had no answers connected to who my parents were, because they were away, you know, meetings and what not. Um, teaching the subject matter, in a sense, got me closer to my folks. I could kind of understand them more, I could understand their fears, I could understand their, their sense of rage, outrage, I can understand what they thought they were doing on my behalf, and what they were doing on my behalf in many ways. Um, before that understanding I-I was angry, you know, and, um, you know, so the courses, the classes, and the discussions that I have with students, both inside the class and outside, you know, they just give me, you know, more depth in terms of understanding my parents, among other things. They give me more depth and understanding of the subject matter. But on a personal level, um, they-th-they kind of allow me to explore what my folks were about in a way that I didn't have before. HD: So, you know, in teaching at Augsburg, you've-you've been here for, uh, 30 years. You arrived inBG: -Yeah. HD: -in 1991? BG: I think it was 92-93. HD: Okay. BG: But who's counting? (Hannah Dyson laughs). HD: So uhBG: I think I was still prosecuting back then. HD: So what, I mean, what changes have you seen in the history department, in Augsburg in general over the years? BG: Well, um, I'm the oldest guy in the department (laughs), and have been since Professor Gustafson left. Um. When I first came in, the department didn't really like me being here. They were-they were kind enough. They were tolerant. They were you know, but they didn't like me being here. They thought I was a pretender. But the department didn't like itself either (laughs). Um. We didn't have meetings for decades. And, um, when we were finally required to meet in the same room I noticed that department members, you know, chose a wall to stare at so they didn't have to look at each other, there was a real tension there. Um, I have seen the department evolve since then, um, I want to say that the, the faculty who were there when I started are individually really nice people, kind people, they just didn't get along with each other for their own issues. And it created a tense atmosphere within the department. But over time, I saw a change of attitude, a change in mood. Um. I-I've-I-I've never been one to like meetings and for the first part of my tenure here, I was able to avoid most of them. But, um, I found that our department meetings were, were really quite good. I-I I enjoyed the people in my department a lot. We made excellent selections and, um, not only were they good professors in the classroom and are good professors in the 5 classroom, but they were good colleagues. And, um, you know, the way that we are now, I don't think we could have been in the past. For example, we, we do feel it important for us to kind of touch base with each other to share, you know, what are the challenges we're facing in the classroom, um, because it can become isolating. Um. I know a lot of my colleagues don't have a collegial relationship with department members because they feel that in showing vulnerability or uncertainty somehow they're not equal, up to the task, they're not as good of professors and some of us are worried about how we look to other faculty. But that just doesn't strike me as, as much an issue in my department. And, um, I saw the department evolve over a period of years from a time where we didn't have that feeling to now where, you know, we seem to matter to each other. Uh, there's also a deep sense of concern for the students. Um. There's a concerted effort on the part of the members of the department to bring the outside world in, that's unusual, and to be a part of the outside world and to see that as an important part of scholarship. That's something that you don't typically see in history departments. Scholarship is, is, is, is defined in terms of papers and books exclusively. But for us, scholarship includes, um, public service and includes public education, public history, taking history into the community, um, engaging the larger public in some of the deeper issues, um, and, um, that's, that's, that's something I'm really proud of being a part of um. 15.12 HD: Sure, what-what are some of the like the most powerful examples for you of times when Augsburg has gone out into the community and really, or in the history department, has gone out and really engaged? 15.23 BG: Well, you know, I-I look at what uh, what Maheen does, Professor Zaman, what he does, he-he is really providing, um, a major resource as a leader in the, in the Muslim community, in the Islamic community, in Minnesota. And, um, you know, it's, you know, I don't- we never had that before, we never had that position before. But through him, we are not just talking about Islamic history or, or, or, or, or sub, sub-Asian history, um, just in the classroom, he's taken it to the, to the neighborhoods, he's-he's a resource that people reach out to, um, you know, I do a lot of public stuff in the community. And, you know, Michael, Jacqui, you know, we're all very much engaged in our respective communities in a, in a larger community, and we're seen as a reference now, as a, as a contact whenever a program is being developed and we need a certain perspective t-to provide a historical perspective, you know, our colleagues are, are called on, not just because they're part of a directory, but because of what people in the community have experienced i-in working with us and dealing with us in, in other, uh, presentations and what not. So many of us are known to the community as a resource to the community. And that's, that's kind of unusual. 16.55 HD: Sure. Um. Overall at Augsburg in general, what changes have you seen over the years? 6 17.04 BG: Hmm. Well, I-I, it starts I think with the student population, it's much more, you know, diverse. Um. I think it's definitely to the, to the, to the better of all of us. Um. I think it better suits, you know, students who are going into a world that is itself diverse, you know, that they have the kind of experiences that they get here in the classroom. And I think for many of my colleagues, it is, it is, uh, um, it has helped us to become better teachers. It's easy for faculty to sort of rely on, you know, past practices that worked, um, because it's hard getting a syllabus together. It's hard getting tests together. It's hard getting lecture plans together. And it's so easy to, it's so tempting to cut corners in that area. Um. It's, it's tempting to not be as, as mindful of how we express ourselves in the classroom. Um. I think there are, there are colleagues who get frustrated that they have to be so mindful. But I don't think it's a bad thing to, you know, t-to be in the world, you know, rather than in some sort of cloistered environment. Um. It keeps us vital, keeps us relevant. Um, it can backfire, you know, but that's part of, you know, being a public person. Um. You know, today in class, for example, um, you know, I said something that I kind of wish I hadn't said, even though I think, you know, I think students understood that I meant it in a, kind of, I was, I was, I was embodying a character, who was careless, and I do that sometimes intentionally. But it felt a little awkward. And right in class, I had to try to figure out how am I going to deal with this? Do I just address it and call attention to it even though I haven't really thought through what I want to say, and therefore be clumsy about this? Or, you know, do I just kind of act as if nothing happened? And there have been times where I've just kind of let things go, trusting that I have that relationship with students. But it felt like I needed to say something and I didn't say it very well. And I felt embarrassed. But, um, I don't think it's a bad thing for students to see their profs uncomfortable on occasion and looking awkward, unsteady, and my students have had a lot of that this semester (laughs). I think that's a little different than it was before where faculty kind of put themselves on pedestals and they were not to be questioned. 20.00 HD: Going along, I mean, you're talking about the diversity of the student body. Um. But I think there's been a lot of conversations over the years about the faculty body, uh, staying majority white. Um, what has your experience been as a faculty member of color at Augsburg? 20.19 BG: Uh, I have, I've, I've long felt lucky to be here. Um, it's a place that has allowed me to do what I wanted to do. You know, I mean, civil rights history, Minnesota History, legal history, those courses were never taught here before. In fact, you don't see them offered in most of the other campuses of any, or i-if any of the other campuses. But Augsburg let me, let me teach those areas and I didn't always, I had to kind of make that stuff up. Um. And the college supported me while I was going through that process of learning the material and presenting it in a, in a cogent way. Um. So i-in terms of curriculum, I feel very much supported. I do feel some of my 7 23.29 23.30 23.31 23.49 colleagues, um, are not always as aware of what they say and do as statements that might be offensive. I think most of my colleagues, um, are aware that there are, um, there are sensibilities that they have to learn about (a weather siren begins to sound during this part of the interview). And I give them credit for that because I think in most instances, you know, faculty are tired o-or not interested in catering to, you know, being overly sensitive about these types of things. Um, we're in the business of making students tough, you know, well, I don't think so. Um. It is a problem when the student population, um, becomes more diverse, and the faculty diversifies at a much slower rate, it is a problem. But I think it's a problem when, um, the campus community as a whole goes through a change, a problem in terms of challenges. Um, you know, what is Augsburg? You know, 10 years ago, we had some sense of what it is, what it was. We have language to describe who we are now. But, uh, it's just language. And so, you know, it's it's, you know, t-the college's effort to be relevant in the 21st century is, is a challenge that's, that has to be taken. So it's not meant to be smooth. And what's it like being a person of color on this campus, the faculty, I personally haven't had any issues. You know. I've heard, I've heard some of my colleagues say things that I think they might not otherwise say if they thought about what they said. But I don't hear much of that. Uh, most of the faculty I deal with are in the humanities. And they're already grappling with these issues. Um. So I don't know, I-I'm not as much as vig- I'm not as vigilant on those issues as some of my other colleagues might be. HD: Sure. BG: SoHD: Um. Also, I think that you served as president of the Faculty Senate in 2014? Uh, can you tell me about that experience? Um, challenges? BG: Well, um (pause), it was a good experience for me. I mean, I, like I said, I hate meetings. I've hated, I've hated more, you know, and I've promised myself when I left the school district I wasn't going to go anymore. I didn't have to go to that many meetings, well, you know, before then, but when you're on the Senate and you're presiding over it, you got to show up (Hannah Dyson laughs). So, uh, I thought it would be a really awful experience. And, let me tell you, I mean, the folks who served on that senate, they were just amazing. Um. I got to know people that I would never have known, uh, from other disciplines. And, and, and, and we all agreed that we wanted to be, to think strategically about the issues confronting the faculty in the college rather than to look provincially at putting out fires here and there. And I think that because we agreed to do that, and we did do that, and w-we set up a time where people could actually talk with each other so I didn't have a lot of items on the agenda 'cause I wanted to have more time for discussion. Uh, it made it, it made it very good. It was a good experience for me, at least, I felt. And I think, you know, w-w-we brought out the best in ourselves. I think we even proved something to ourselves that we were capable 8 27.01 27.08 27.38 27.39 27.43 28.03 of, of, of looking at these issues strategically, and being players. And we were relevant to the Board of Regents and to the President, because we met on a, on a, on a monthly basis. Um. We had retreats, it was the first time that the, the cabinet and the President and the Senate had retreats, where we could just sit and talk. Um. So it was, it was a far better experience than, um, I would have expected. Now, on the other hand, I really got in touch, you know how some people get in touch with their inner voice or muse or something? I got in touch with my inner, you know, neuroses (Hannah Dyson laughs). Um, I-I always knew that I was, um, an introvert. I don't know that I became even more so during that time, or whether I had learned coping mechanisms to minimize it. I think it was more the latter. But when I was on the Senate, I found myself less able to put the mask on. And, um, so it was very stressful at times. And, um, I served for, I served in two terms, but I had to leave halfway through the second term for surgery. Um, but it was, it was, in a sense, a better situation being carved on (laughs), on the operating table than you know, being carved on in a meeting. Uh, it wasn't hostile but (Hannah Dyson laughs) it was, it was, it was a good experience for the most part. HD: Sure. What were like some of the major or, you know, some things that you remember the issues being or things that were discussed? BG: Hmm. Well, I-I left in 16, 2016, I think it was, and that's, you know, like a century ago (Hannah Dyson laughs). Um. Curriculum, um, safety, strategic planning, um uh um, governance. There were other issues too, I'm sure, but I just can't. I mean, I wrote the agenda and I can't remember any of it. HD: Yeah, yeah. BG: Yeah. I'm kind of proud of that. (Hannah Dyson laughs). HD: Um, you mentioned, uh, you know, serving on the school district and you were the superintendent of the Minneapolis Public Schools. What was behind that decision when you took a leave of absence from Augsburg and became the superintendent in 2006? BG: Ahh (pause), well, it's actually much simpler than I'm making it seem right now. Um. The board asked me to be the superintendent because the district was going through all kinds of difficulty. The preceding superintendent was, you know, had, had, had, had a, a difficult tenure here. And the consequence of that tenure was all sorts of tension among every stakeholder holding group, uh, parents didn't get along with teachers who didn't get along with principals, didn't get along with, with, with, you know, school board, you know, unions and, you know, everything, you know, politicians, everything was at h- everybody was at each other's throat. And I had served for t-two terms on the school board. So you know, I kind of spent a lot of time, um, uh, you know, working with various groups and, you know, kind of, you know, trying to resolve some of the issues, as well as providing some, some strategic vision for the district along with, uh, six other board members. And, um, I think more than anything 9 else, you know, th-they knew that I was known by the community. They knew that they needed to find someone who, you know, could relate to folks in the community. And, um, you know, I had a full time job, so I wasn't interested in a permanent thing. Um. And I told them that I wasn't, you know, I wasn't an aficionado on all things curricular. And I couldn't care less about that stuff, and if they wanted somebody, they could go someplace else. But, you know, I kn-I knew the community and I understood how to pull the community in this district back together again or back, you know, in-in collaboration, and I also said that I would, you know, I'm not- I'm going to leave when I feel like my time is up. And it helped to have this to come back to. Um. So I felt like there was some service that I could provide. I didn't think anybody else could do it. It was a school district that treated my kid really well, gave him an excellent education, and I felt like it could, you know, it could do well for other kids as well, you know, and there were a lot of people in the district who were good folks who were frustrated, you know, because the system wasn't as effective as it could be. And I thought I might be able to help in that. Um. So, you know, that's, that's kind of what it is. I was also really and this goes back to a previous question you asked about Augsburg. I've never known an institution to give a leave of absen-absence indefinitely, you know, I mean, they never cleared out this office, they never removed my name tag. And the vice-president who gave me the permission to do this, and with the support of the president, of course, um, you know, said you go do what you need to do. And you come back when you decide you're ready. And I had only planned to be gone for six months, eighteen months at the most. And I ended up being gone for four and a half years. And when I decided I was ready for me to come back because I couldn't do anything more, you know, I, you know, the college welcomed me with open arms, you can't ask for a better place to be. So that's, those are two answers, separate answers to that question. 31.51 HD: Yeah, thank you. Um. You know, you've written three books now. Um. Have you found that either the classes that you've taught at Augsburg has inspired those books or you've been inspired by those books to teach different mater-uh classes at Augsburg or kind of like different subjects? Um. 32.18 BG: Yeah. (Hannah Dyson laughs). Um (pause). Yeah. I, uh, I've got one coming out this fall on, um, an African American woman who participated in the suffrage movement, we've talked about that, and, uh, who wrote the legislation for, um, anti-lynching law to be put in place. And (pause), uh, you know, I-I-I, you can't talk about civil rights without talking about the role of women and you can't talk about civil rights in Minnesota without really understanding the nuance of race, you know, in a state that where the policy makers and opinion makers tend to be liberal, but the, the body politic is, is not necessarily in the same place. You can't really, you know, um, and so, you know, examining those issues in class, um, you know, wet my appetite in raising all, you know, additional questions that later become seeds for, for more 10 35.00 35.01 35.02 35.20 scholarship. Um. I'm sort of in a, in a, in a, curious and perhaps enviable position, although it’s more curious and talking to my editor about which project do we work with because I've already written the first draft of, of a, of a manuscript on the teacher's strike of 1970. And I've written two drafts on the history of liberalism in Minnesota. And, you know, we're talking about which one should we work on next. Um. And the second one, liberalism in Minnesota is a book that I want to use in class. And that's one of the reasons why, you know, I'm kind of inclined to want to go with that first. So you can see that the classroom experience, teaching, scholarship they're, they're all connected. They're all part of that triumphrant, you know, um, to take any one of those out, is to basically take out, to change, a-a situation that I don't inhabit. And I kind of live in this triangle. One thing relies on the other. HD: Uh. BG: I don't know if I answered your question. HD: No, you did. Yes. Yes, absolutely. Uh. Going back, I mean, when you came back to Augsburg, uh, after being superintendent for four and a half years, was the transition easy or difficult for you to come back here? BG: Yeah, it was difficult. I remember the th-the the first day back during convocation. Um, after convocation, I sat in what would be my classroom. I hadn’t been in a classroom, uh, for, well, four and a half years. So I just wanted to kind of feel it out and it felt (pause) strange. Um, going into teach the first class, I don't think was as strange for me as I thought it might be. But I was, I was, I was, aware of the adjustments that I needed to make nonetheless, one of which, when I left Augsburg before, the student population was predominantly white, northern European Protestant. And when I came back it was much more religiously as well as racially diverse. And, um, I found myself needing to watch how I expressed myself, which is a paradox, you know, because you would think that that would be so when I'm talking to a predominantly white student population. But I had a number of students who were Muslim, for example, a number of students who were Native American, and I had to be, I had to be mindful of how they, what they might be hearing when I, you know, kind of do my thing. Um, and I found myself needing to make, you know, it was hard and I needed to make, uh, (unintelligible) think about, you know, a student comes into your classroom, if you're lucky, they're willing to be vulnerable. But in being vulnerable, they become subject to, you know, dissa- pain. And with a professor, and the professor is, is powerful, you know, can really create damage unless they're careful. And so I found myself being, um, and it's easy to be misunderstood, you know, when the population i-is diverse. So I found myself having to make those kinds of adjustments in a way that I didn't anticipate. No one really told me that I needed to do that. The second thing is that when I was, um, in the classroom, I could yell and scream and not worry 11 about being sued, which I couldn't do when I was in the school district. I was always being sued. Um, so that was a good side. (Hannah Dyson laughs). Good and bad. 37.58 HD: Sure. Yeah. Um well, I think that wraps up all of the questions I had for you. Is there anything that you'd like to say or anything that you'd like to elaborate on? 38.10 BG: Um, no, because you've got other classes, I'm sure or work. You know how much, how long I talk. Um, I'll just say that I really appreciate you asking me these questions and, you know, thank you. 38.23 HD: Thank you so much for doing this. Let’s see if I can get this thing stopped.
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Title: Street Voices of Change: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Aksana Muratalieva, 2021
Collection: Augsburg Central Health Commons Oral History Project
Search Result: Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Thu, 7/22 10:18AM 36:02 SUMMARY KEYWORDS kyrgyzstan, heart, isaac, human, augsburg, god, lives, people, life, human beings, minneapolis, fact, commons, suffering, began, health, reaches, continue, minnesota, pandemic SPEAKERS Isaac Tadé, Aksana M ...
Show more Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Thu, 7/22 10:18AM 36:02 SUMMARY KEYWORDS kyrgyzstan, heart, isaac, human, augsburg, god, lives, people, life, human beings, minneapolis, fact, commons, suffering, began, health, reaches, continue, minnesota, pandemic SPEAKERS Isaac Tadé, Aksana M I Isaac Tadé 00:02 Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé. I'm a student intern with Augsburg Central Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? A Aksana M 00:17 Thank you. My name is Aksana Muratalieva. And I am a native for Kyrgyzstan, born on March 26 1973, in the capital city formerly known as Frunze, and currently Bishkek, which is the capital of a beautiful, mountainous country of Kyrgyzstan. I Isaac Tadé 00:45 Okay, thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having this interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be used and available to the public. A Aksana M 00:59 I am absolutely honored and delighted to be a part of this auspicious opportunity, which is with the Augsburg University Central Health Commons program. Thank you. Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 1 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai I Isaac Tadé 01:14 Thank you. Okay, let's get into it. So can you tell me where you grew up and who you call family. A Aksana M 01:22 As I had mentioned earlier, I was born on March 26 1973, which makes me as of today of 48 years of age. I was born in my mother says I was born in a small village of shoberg at the outskirts of my country, Kyrgyzstan. And in fact, I was born as a premature baby over seven months old, whom doctors kind of proclaimed that I wouldn't survive, but here I am, fourty eight years older. So and I grew up and matured, which means I got my high school education then my university degree in English language and literature at the Kyrgyz State National University in the capital city of Bishkek. So and then later at the age when I was 27 years old, that makes it September 2000. That's when I got an admission to the program in Human Resource Development at the University of Minnesota here in Minneapolis. And my family, my mother Canalabou and my father Jyaumprsho. So they are very senior age right now. My father is 79 years old and my mother is 69 years old. So me and my son have just returned from our international trip to Kyrgyzstan, and stayed there for two months. So my family are my mom and dad, they're in good health. Thank you God. And I do have an older sister, Inyerha, two years older than I am then I'm the second one. After me I have two younger brothers, Azad and Bauckut. One of them is up here in the United States, lives this assembly in Burnsville, the state of Minnesota and my younger brother Bauckut, who is 43 years old. Right now him and his family and children they live in Bishkek Kyrgyzstan. I Isaac Tadé 03:40 Okay, thank you for sharing. Um, could you tell me about how you got involved with Street Voices of Change? A Aksana M 03:49 All thank you I so I believe that it is truly a hand of Almighty God. I'm really beginning to delve into is our Almighty creator. And every human being in fact, is created in his likeness and image. So I am honored to have met a very distinguished gentleman. His name is Paul and I met him about a week ago at the seven a.m daily mass, Monday through Friday at the Basilica of St. Mary. And we began to speak about the social issues and he wholeheartedly invited me to this remarkable meeting this morning, every Thursday at 8:30am with hot breakfast served, of the Street Voices of Change. And here I am a week Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 2 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai after the whole credit I owe entirely to of course God and he is using Paul as his mighty and very active hand in bringing People whose hearts are on you know, painful with the, you know, devastation the whole humanity of the earth is going through right now. So God is using Paul and right now meeting remarkable gentle men Isaac yourself. And here I am being interviewed for to the remains in the history of humanity. I Isaac Tadé 05:23 I'm so glad you're a part of this history. Thank you. And will you be coming back to Street Voices of Change? A Aksana M 05:29 Absolutely. I Isaac Tadé 05:30 We will be seeing more of you at Health Commons? A Aksana M 05:32 Every meeting, I just will have to excuse myself because I just booked an airline ticket for my 12 year old son and myself. So we are flying God willing, of course, this coming Sunday, July 25. The 21, two from Minneapolis to Las Vegas, we are our family, the Deloris' and our cousins, Robin and Jacquelene. Are patiently waiting on us to join and we all are going camping. To lake Sacco and Yosemite Park and all those places. And after that, about two weeks planned for, we will come back and this will be the first you know, breakfast meeting, I will be jump right in from the airplane. I Isaac Tadé 06:20 Okay. Well, we'll be excited to see you back then. So to switch the topic a little bit, I'd like to ask you, what did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for you now, because of COVID-19. A Aksana M 06:36 Thank you, Isaac, this is quite heavy for the heart. And for the mind subject. Speaking for myself, I am the kind of person who does count the blessings. But then, last year, the whole world turned upside down. We, including myself and my son, we have been locked Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 3 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai in into a tight environment of our beautiful, of course blessed, you know, one bedroom apartment with the windows overlooking, you know, the Basilica of St. Mary. But due to strict guidelines, and, you know, desire to keep ourselves safe and good health, and our neighbors we live on fifth floor of the historical building, right here in the heart of Minneapolis. We had to you know, follow those two guidelines, which I truly understand and support. So, then how lives that were around me, I mean, the human beings whom I connected to, they just began to be taken the Coronavirus, was in a merciless began to claim the illness began to claim the lives of the people next to us. And my heart is beating in agony, agony as we speak. I am in fact, really blessed to be alive. And moreover, to be in good health. So being a human being with breathing, you know, beating heart over time, I think and meditate upon many, many things, and I questioned God. Why did you keep me alive? And why are you keeping me alive? And I'm still trying to find the answer to this question. I even checked out the books from the Central Public Library in downtown Minneapolis about you know, God checked out a few books with the title is The Mind of God, the mind of God and the purpose of life and I read a lot I am just fortunate and I do know that my life is fragile as well. You know, I'm no different from anyone and any moment you know any thing can stop me anytime and in my language in Kyrgyzstan, we say that you know the extent and the illness they come uninvited. So my life personally turned upside down. And if I'm still breathing and in this physical body, I believe that Almighty God does have a purpose for me and this is when I began to really search the answers for the purpose of my life. And then, you know, mighty God, I'm so grateful that I'm alive right now. I mean, me and my son in terms of his COVID we were blessed to take our trip to visit my father, and my mother and Kyrgyzstan we are back 10 days ago from our two months, stay in Kyrgyzstan. And during this time, you know, I, as many 1000s, and millions of fellow beings, I did lose my good job. My last job was a security I was the security officer for the statewide protective agency was the headquarters in Brooklyn center. And I had to, you know, let my job go. So for the concerns of COVID, because I'm a single parent of a 12 year old, I was honestly afraid. So but then, you know, I'm so grateful to the government of the United States to the government of the state of Minnesota and the governor. So I had, I was forced by the circumstances of the income to apply for the Minnesota unemployment insurance, for which I was instantly approved online. And, you know, I'm so blessed, I was able to collect those benefits in home country of Kyrgyzstan, we don't have the stimulus checks. We don't have the, you know, the unemployment benefits. In fact, the government of Kyrgyzstan went on a vacation last year as of summer, leaving the entire nation of 6 million people when or for their own survival. And I'm eternally grateful, it puzzles me, you know, this whole worldwide pandemia. It makes me think it makes me not to take my personal frivolously. And I want to be of help. And I want to be hand of mighty God in helping, you know, and I believe this, the hand of God has brought me to this program called Street Voices of Change. Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 4 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai I Isaac Tadé 12:33 Well, that's so beautiful, thank you for sharing your story, and for sharing your struggle through the pandemic and the things that you saw during the pandemic, have obviously impacted you deeply, and maybe even certainly on a spiritual level. And that, would you say is how your outlook has been changed on life? You sound incredibly grateful. A Aksana M 13:00 I am, I am, I am. I am beyond the feeling the human feel sentimental feeling of gratefulness. I am beyond grateful. And I am willing to find the answer why God is has decided not willingly to give me because I do believe that the time that the piece of time that we humans have really created was our rush is our try to catch up on things and trying to collect the items. So my heart is in a different place right now. I don't anymore, secure my, you know, my riches and the properties and in last year, I began to enjoy this antique to a person do their China sets and the silver and the gold. I am blessed with all everything that I own. But now my heart is not there. I my heart. You know, I stole my church is in heaven. And, in fact, with the benefits that I was able to, I was generously given by the government of the state of Minnesota. While my trip to Kyrgyzstan, I was able to help my own family, as many believe millions of fellow immigrants are in the United States. I did send money for money ground. And in fact, my family's doing construction right now. So I was with those benefits, because the dollar value was the ratio of $1 equaling 84 soms on the local currency. It stretches far. So I was I thank, the government of the U.S you know, that money paid for the craftsmen that we have hired to expand the property that we have in the countryside, close to the mountains closer to nature, we're able to buy the construction materials we're able to buy the food, my mom was cooking three times meals. And I was even able to use that money for charity, because there's so much pain and suffering, you know, people in wheelchairs, people are starving people hungry. So I was able to give the money from that, because currently, you know, I'm not employed. And that's the fact. So yeah, it's, it's the fact. Thank you. Yeah, I Isaac Tadé 15:42 thank you for sharing. So moving on here in the summer of 2020, the movement against systemic racism had Minneapolis at its Epicenter, with the murder of George Floyd, can you describe your experience living in the Minneapolis St. Paul area during this time? A Aksana M 16:02 Thank you, Isaac. My 12 year old son, chemiluminescent, and myself, we resides in the Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 5 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai heart of Minneapolis city, right at 230 Oak Grove Street and historical building on the fifth floor. And we were we are in fact, we still reside there. Live in the epicenter. So first and foremost, my heart in agony, and mourning goes out to reach the suffering and the agony that the family of George Floyd has been going through and still going through. We all entire humanity, are connected. And however much we try to, you know, resist on that the whole humanity, we are one we are connected. So, in my heart, I express my very sincere, deep condolences to the family of a fellow human being, George Floyd, who, due to the unfortunate circumstances, you know, lost his life? And I have no answer for this because I'm a mortal, sinful human being as everyone else. So is everyone in my family, and I have no answer. why it happened? I have no answer as a human being as a mortal human being why it had to happen. And my heart reaches is out to his family, to his parents, if they're listening to this, go out to his, you know, loved ones, to those people who have known him and loved him. And I believe that he is soul and spirit are in the place in heaven where they say there is no suffering anymore. My heart at the same time, which is out to the family of the policemen, you know, it happened, so, and his family is suffering as well, he himseself is suffering. So, in fact, the whole humanity is suffering and we should stop denying that it has happened to someone else it has happened. And it may happen to any single one of us. No one is exempt of pain and suffering. Yeah. So, and during the riots and everything, you know, which I understand. So, we people were also prior to that locked up in four walls and you know, when we are being locked up and close environment with not going outside. We have to release our energy and our energy, anger elsewhere. And so it happened, you know, my heart is in pain right now. You know, I mean, it's right now there's also reconstruction repairing going on, but I saw lots of burning and breaking and you know, it's and I understand I connect to and I don't want to blame anyone for any of the emotions which had to be poured out. And many times in destructive way because we all are humans. Yeah. And I'm not an exempt to this. So I saw the troops being pulled in the city. So the man my son was so anxious about this, he'll say, Mom, I'm looking at the military man in uniforms and holding the guns and in my heart reaches out to those soldier men who have their own families as well. And my heart reaches out to policemen to nurses, and to the doctors who many of them have lost their lives and sacrifice their lives and you know, expose themselves to the risk of the Coronavirus, who live on the fifth floor. And there is no other day and night which go by where we don't hear the sirens. And for me that every siren was an ear is the cry of entire humanity for help. Help Help. So we need to stop closing our eyes and saying this is not my pain. No, because everyone driving that, you know, the ambulance car, the police car, they have mothers, they have fathers, they have children, they have wives, there have husbands who are you know, waiting on them in their homes, and they may not come back. So every time you know, I will hear that in my heart in my heart, I would cry and I'm still crying. That's why when they use this body, this physical body and my mind to benefit if there's anything I can help with what I am, so I'm here. Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 6 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai I Isaac Tadé 21:17 Yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. I know, it was a very tumultuous time, it continues to be a tumultuous time, some of the things that were happening before just maybe exposed more. So I would ask you, I would like to ask you. If there's anything else that you want people to know, or remember, like, let's say 30 years from now, about your experience, or other people's experiences, who may not have experienced homelessness during this time period. What would, what's your message to send to them? A Aksana M 22:05 I'm 48 years old right now. 30 years, forward, forward. I'm God willing, I'm here and working on my two feet. Hopefully, I don't know because, you know, I mean, every step could be the last step. Every breath could be the last one. And in fact, this is the worldwide pandamia which made me and still make the think on this because the Bible says, tomorrow is not promised, as my next step is not promised as my next breath is as promised, as my next eyesight is not promised. So reaching out to someone who would be possibly maybe winning their ear to what I'm saying. I have actually tears filling up my eyes right now. Remember, life, human life is sacred. The word of the of God the living word of God, Holy Bible. Stay, stick to it. I'm trying to honor my every movement with the precept each precept of the Word of God and hold the Bible. God says Be still and know that I am God not as human beings. Do not rush, no point. Do not collect all this you know worthless belongings. Um, I was reading a couple days ago Eclesiastes everything is meaningless. While you're looking forward to it, collecting the treasures like materialistic treasures, you know this that cars and the houses and belongings and the clothes when I'm gone, I won't be able to take any one of this. Of dusty we come and to dust we shall return. Yes. So I want the and I'm not an exception. I'm a mortal human being would vanish physically from the face of this earth and life will continue going on. And there is a saying in the punny shots. "There is a bridge between time and eternity. neither death nor pain, nor day and night can cross that." And that bridge is the spirit of man. So hopefully what I'm seeing right now in spirit will reach out the listening ear. So remember, human life is sacred, and you're life does count. So, remember, blessings, do crown the head of the righteous. So keep your head, your chin up. And when due to career or accomplishments, even they are meaningless. They vanish as you know everything else in this life. Remember, keep your feet on the ground, you may keep your dreams and ideas and thoughts you know up, but when you're up there, always remember there is so much suffering down there, keep your feet firmly on the ground and follow I would say obey the commands the presets which are clearly depicted engraved in Holy Bible only. Thank you, Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 7 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai I Isaac Tadé 26:04 thank you. Thank you so much. Um, just a few final questions geared towards health what would you say that you need for health as you define it A Aksana M 26:20 5000 years ago, Hippocrates who is considered to be the father of the medicine did did say let your food medicine let thy foot wet their medicine lets your medicine be thy food. So, physically we are what we eat. And in fact I have just shared the whole heartshaped container. Of have a very healthy I would say you know, natural anti COVID anti Coronavirus vaccine which has three of the most powerful God nature create ingredients. The first ingredient is the raw ginger root which your grind you know, I did this this morning I chose 6am in the morning grounded in the manual grinder took me a while. Number two ingredient is raw honey and the honey I put was actually the mountains honey of Kyrgyzstan my native land. Third ingredient was the limes. Fresh squeezed lime juice. Every single one of them is a very important antiviral, anti infectious antibacterial, antioxidant. And you can imagine the word those three together do so in the morning empty stomach, one tablespoon full. And I myself eat ginger odors you know as bread. So, yeah, nutrition is the bridge to good health, nutrition. And of course starts with rightful and righteous thinking you are on a mental and psychological emotional level. You are what you think you are. In fact your mind does shape your reality. I Isaac Tadé 28:30 Beautiful. So, so insightful. Everything that you have to say and, and I so appreciate your your input on health. Continuing that. What would you what feedback would you have for the staff here at Central health commons? I know this is only your first day here. But from your experience so far, is there anything that we can work on? What could be better? Is anything missing? A Aksana M 29:01 Thank you, Isaac. This morning, the mighty hand of God has brought me to be introduced to this auspicious remarkable and unique program at Augsburg central health commons. Forgive my ignorance I didn't know about this program and truly, you know learning to be a medicine woman excited looking forward to know more in depth about your integrative program and hopefully to be involved with your you know, current and forthcoming projects. So as a fellow simple human being the you know, sensitive resident of the City of Minneapolis I will be honored if there is any input of my experience, knowledge, I mean, I, I Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 8 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai am a world wide traveler. So, I mean the cultural input the knowledge input, the experiential, the historical the snake, I mean, I mean, I am well, I am, so I'll be very fortunate, and they will consider that as unique and auspicious and one of a kind opportunity to get to know more about your background isaac, about the background of the people who run this program, and I am fully supportive of your health problems of the Augsburg department, thank you, college. I Isaac Tadé 30:43 thank you, it's, we're so thankful that you're here. Is there anything else you'd like to say before we finish today, A Aksana M 30:56 life is beautiful. Life is sacred. Life is a journey of mind, body, and spirit. And we, as human beings, I truly, truly beginning to believe in my heart that God did create, every single one of us down to the, you know, little piece of hair on top of our head, for His glory and purpose. And if he did create us in his own likeness and image because there is no other species on the face of the evolutionary Earth, and universe which resembles even tibbett to the human being, I mean, we are so complex, we are the matrix of the feelings and sentiments, emotions and the I mean, it's just phantasmagoric what the minds you know, which are tuned in there, you know, creative magic and create the music and the philosophy and the art and the science and oh my god, do we just do just Isaac, you know, imagine we tune in our energy and our spirit and our entire essence to the to who we truly are created to be. There is absolutely I mean, we are the human beings who are able to launch this spaceships into this space into the universe to discover the Milky Ways and the Galactus we are all same human beings who are able to communicate to each other on a remote basis I mean about this you know, the mind speaking and this the hypnosis and the Tilly kinetics, and oh, my God, and can you imagine that this this is all are all is in sync? I mean, it's all like, in us, human beings, we just need to continue delving and then you know, into our real the true the, you know, authentic the nature, oh my god, as every human being we just don't realize that we are you know, I mean, we are creating let's but in the image of God, but we should stop pretending that we are God because we are not. As I said, let's get back to the, you know, what divine Holy Word of God says, All the Bible Be still and know that I am God. So we have to humbly bore ourselves. You know, I'm not saying no place also knowledge, but maybe this is the time even this coronavirus pandemic is the design of the Almighty God so that we humans, you know, stop pretending, being gods, although we are Almighty and handy, but our days are counted. So, and it was this I take authority on behalf of mighty creature, give every fellow human being on the face of the earth. You know, be blessed, and count your blessings. Because Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 9 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai remember, every breeze every step, every you know, eye look, anything we hear anything can come to an end can cease to exist any moment. And I'm not exempt I'm just a mortal human being whose life physical life is fragile. I Isaac Tadé 34:29 extremely humbling. Thank you so much for your time. So that concludes our interview for today. Again, thank you for taking the time to share your story, to share your perspective. And, and and to give us a little sense of who you are and and who you are as a human in this world. So thank you again. A Aksana M 34:50 Thank you Isaac so may you know this technology, you know, help us carry our tools and the year vibrations and the you know, breath and the, you know, mode of our hearts through the times through the space. Because there's the Upanishads of ancient Sanskrit said that there is a bridge between time and eternity. Nothing can close the patient. It is the spirit of man, which was ongoing, every human is gone, we will continue carrying the message through the centuries into eternity. So, thank you, Isaac, Thank you for your time. And I bow my head and my spirit and my entire essence in humbleness for you, to the entire staff of the Augsburg central health Commons to the program the strength voices of change to the entire humanity. Thank you taking the time and listening to mumbling of a mere human being. I Isaac Tadé 36:00 Amen. Thank you. Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021 Page 10 of 10 Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Kim Yue, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Kim Yue (2022) 3/22/2022 • 36:13 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, concepts, nursing, community, class, experiences, patients, change, feel, project, hospital, DNP, engaged, advocate, civic engagement, stand, new jersey, hoping, home SPEAKERS Kim Yue, Elaine Eschenbacher E...
Show more Oral History with Kim Yue (2022) 3/22/2022 • 36:13 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, concepts, nursing, community, class, experiences, patients, change, feel, project, hospital, DNP, engaged, advocate, civic engagement, stand, new jersey, hoping, home SPEAKERS Kim Yue, Elaine Eschenbacher Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00 Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Kim Yue 00:43 My name is Kimberly Yue. I'm a pediatric nurse practitioner and a doctoral student here at Augsburg in the transcultural nursing leadership program. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:54 Thank you. Before we continue, I would like to confirm that you consent to be interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, in the archives of the library, which will be made available to the public. Kim Yue 01:10 I consent. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:11 Thank you. Tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg. Kim Yue 01:23 Okay, um, I'm from New Jersey. So, my bachelor's in science in nursing is from William Paterson University here in New Jersey. About 10 years ago, I graduated with my master's in nursing as a pediatric nurse practitioner, from Seton Hall University, also in New Jersey. And for my doctorate, I really wanted to kind of branch out from something that was more mainstream and cookie cutter, I wanted something that would be more focused on culture and social justice issues. I wanted to learn to be a better advocate for my patients, and how to just be a better, well rounded, you know, doctoral -1- nurse. And I went in my project to focus on cultural issues, which was is not as accepted at all universities. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:41 Sounds like you were seeking out the kind of exactly the kind of program that Augsburg has then. Is that would you say that's true? Kim Yue 02:48 I would definitely would say that's true. I would say for the past, well, for the first few years before I entered Augsburg I had been looking at various doctoral programs, but just nothing kind of really felt like the right fit. But when I met Dr. Miller and Dr. Schuhmacher and had an interview with them, it just felt like I was home like I was with the people that I'm supposed to be with it, it just immediately felt right. And I knew that this is where I should be to take my practice to where I want it to go. Elaine Eschenbacher 03:34 Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged with the community? Kim Yue 03:46 Prior to coming to Augsburg, I kind of made two life changes. I was working in primary care in a very affluent area and was very engaged with my patients and their families. They did not require a lot of social support for me. Yet, there's always reasons to advocate for kids. Different issues. I really wanted to kind of branch out from something that was more mainstream and cookie cutter, I wanted something that would be more focused on culture and social justice issues. I wanted to learn to be a better advocate for my patients, and how to just be a better, well rounded, you know, doctoral nurse. And I went in my project to focus on cultural issues, which was is not as accepted at all universities. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:21 Um, that's a great description of the kind of different communities you've worked in and how you're engaging, and being an advocate. What about being able to create change within a system are within the institution? How did you see yourself as a nurse in relation to that? Kim Yue 05:45 I'm so sorry. Can you repeat the question? You froze a little. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:49 Oh, sure. Sorry about that. Before coming to Augsburg? How did you see yourself you talked about how you saw yourself as a nurse in terms of being engaged in the community? How did you see yourself in terms of being able to create change within a system or within the institution. Kim Yue In my primary care position, I felt very unempowered to create any change. It was a private practice owned by a single physician, and any changes that I had suggested went nowhere, unfortunately. There were definitely things that we could have done to advocate for patients. But that, that, -2- unfortunately, fell on deaf ears. Once I started at my new position, in which I've been there, about three years now, three and a half years, very receptive to ideas and change. It is frustratingly slow, but I guess, as all hospital systems are, but yeah, they're very open to any kind of suggestions. As soon as I suggested anything for my doctoral project, they just jumped all over them, like I could have had, like 10 projects that would have been viable there. And I would have had support with any of them. Here, I feel like I definitely make change. I co-chair our business resource group (BRG), which within the hospital, it's called power, it's dedicated to social justice. So within the hospital system and within the community, so we try to bring issues to light to the staff, to the patients, we try to affect change in that way. We have. We have a voting webinar series. We have financial literacy series. We help out other BRGs with any of their causes. So I definitely know that I can make a change here. Well, it sounds like as you're describing it, it sounds like the specific context makes a big difference. But it's interesting, because you changed contexts at about the same time that you started studying in the program at Augsburg is that right? Kim Yue 08:42 I was working there for about a year, and then maybe a year and a couple of months COVID hit, and of course that really brought to light so many inequities and social concerns but when COVID hit it was a whole other level where we went from seeing patients all day long to now I'm trying to figure out how do I keep them home where we can watch them safely and care for them via phone. You know, just because COVID hit doesn't mean that babies you know with congenital heart defects don't get born anymore, they continue to get born, and so we spearheaded a program where we we got scales and batteries and thermometers and all sorts of supplies and shipped them directly to their home so that they could care for their babies and we could get the data from them. Because the insurance companies don't cover any of that. But they can't have a newborn at home with congenital heart disease, where we don't know how much are they gaining every day? How much weight have they gained? Have they lost any weight? So we were able to do that it just really brought to light so many, so many issues. So COVID hit our area in March, and by September I was I was at Augsburg. Elaine Eschenbacher 10:26 Wow. Since being at Augsburg, how has your view of your role as a nurse changed? Or has it changed? And if so how? Kim Yue 10:57 I definitely did not think of nurses as large scale advocates for general populations, I definitely was always on an individual basis, one to one with my patients, (being) fierce advocates for whatever they needed. But to think more globally, that nurses could really affect change, for large populations or for you know, the community at large. I did not see that role as much as I do now. Elaine Eschenbacher 11:39 Could you describe a little bit about what you experienced at Augsburg that made you see that differently? Kim Yue 11:48 -3- I mean, just every class that we've taken has really been such an eye opening experience into just society, into politics into socio-economic issues. Everything through a transcultural lens, a social justice lens, and emancipatory nurse lens. To hear about it emancipatory nursing was just kind of like, where have these rockstars been all my life? Like, these are my people! Where have they been? We don't really talk about them enough. Like, this is a thing, but they're very hidden away. And I think I think it's amazing that the nurses are out there advocating for social justice change and for change, you know, in communities and society. Because people need to listen to us we have we have a holistic view of people's lives, not just their health, but every every part of their life. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:10 It sounds like, even if those ideas were kind of new to you being exposed to them in the Augsburg program, you resonated with them really quickly. Kim Yue 13:24 Absolutely, I can't tell you how many times I've read in a book. I'm like, that's what I've been saying all along. Yes, this is what makes sense to me. This is like a validation of what you kind of knew, but it's like in print, now somebody else feels that way too. You're not alone. You know, there's other people out there that are working to affect change, and that just empowers you to feel like you can do that as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:56 That's awesome. For the next question, I'm going to list off a couple of different concepts and ask you if if they are concepts that you remember discussing in any of your classes, and if so, which classes so citizen professional or a citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills? Are those concepts that you remember from particular classes? Kim Yue 14:21 Yes, definitely. A Seat at the Table with with Dr. Clark. Elaine Eschenbacher 14:27 Anything else you'd like to say about that? Kim Yue 14:29 That was really an eye opening class. It was interesting. Every part of it was interesting to learn about it definitely was not something that I knew those skills before. Power mapping was just so intriguing to me that I've actually incorporated it into my DNP project. So yeah, I mean, it was it was, it was very intriguing to me. And then, and then the hearing about emancipatory nursing, which is was, that was like the favorite part of my class. To learn that process and those skills was really, that's something that I will definitely take with me forever. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:21 Nice. Some of these questions overlap a little bit because we're hoping that if we ask them in different ways, it'll maybe bring forth different ideas. So if it feels like that it's kind of intentional. Can you tell me -4- a little bit more about what experiences are kind of pedagogical practices in the classroom or in your coursework, helped you gain an understanding of the role of a citizen professional or citizen nurse? Kim Yue 15:53 Well, in that class, we did we had the author come speak to us, and his name is escaping me. Elaine Eschenbacher 16:01 Oh, no, that's okay. I think Harry Boyte. Kim Yue 16:05 Yes. Yeah. So in that class, we had Harry Boyte come and speak with us, and that just brought everything to life. It brought the book to life, definitely. And to hear directly from somebody who is so directly involved in social justice work was pretty amazing. And I have a lot of reverence and awe for him. Elaine Eschenbacher 16:39 Do you feel better equipped to lead change either in or outside of healthcare institutions after your educational experiences at Augsburg? And if so, how? Kim Yue 16:54 That would have been a very easy yes or no question. The answer is yes. I keep track of all the concepts that we've gone over in all of the classes. And I can just tell in my everyday experience at work, that I see these concepts throughout my day, and yes, I do feel equipped to make change and I am making change. So at work, and my DNP project will be a large part of that. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:36 Would you mind describing a little bit about your DNP project? Kim Yue 17:39 Sure. My DNP project is called Kim's lovve project. And LOVVE, love stands for LGBTQ outpatient vital and valuable education for healthcare providers. So it will be a four class advocacy program for the LGBTQ community within within my hospital. There's a lot of intersectional issues where I work. So we explore intersectionality, we explore history of LGBTQ issues. We're exploring discrimination and oppression and how those those affected social determinants of health and how we can be effective allies to support them when they come into our hospital, in our spaces, and in the community. I chose allyship because if you learn allyship for one marginalized community, it really can be applied to any community and any person that needs allyship. So that's what we're doing. Elaine Eschenbacher 19:07 Great. How did you come to that idea? What made you decide to design that? Kim Yue 19:13 So initially, when I came to Augsburg, the LGBTQ community was always a community that I wanted to work with. Just because wrapping my head around the concept of discriminating against somebody just -5- for who they love or who they are just is just so foreign to me. I just don't understand it. And it just felt like if you look in our community, like a trans black woman is probably the most at risk person that we could have walk into our in the hospital. So I wanted to help that population. Elaine Eschenbacher 20:12 So thinking back on your education at Augsburg and and how the civic skills and these concepts played into it, what do you think could have helped you better understand civic skills or the concepts that we've highlighted in this interview? And two part question and what concepts were the most challenging to kind of grasp? Kim Yue 20:35 I was never really a good social studies student in school, so when it comes to government, politics, how everything works, I'm was just never really very knowledgeable of that. I think that the class definitely hit on, you know, how to try to affect change within your community. I feel maybe a little bit more civics basics for those of us who are not that politically engaged, might be helpful. Elaine Eschenbacher 21:24 That makes good sense. Yeah. Kim Yue 21:25 But, but the concepts that I learned were very easily applicable. Elaine Eschenbacher 21:35 Did any of those concepts impact either your current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing? You actually talked to a couple questions ago about how you see these concepts every day? Kim Yue 22:06 I do. I see a lot of the concepts from all of Augsburg? I definitely feel like I'm more in tune to civic engagement, like locally and nationally, and internationally. Right now, especially. So I mean, it definitely has informed me - have I have I acted on that - (saying) I am more engaged? I don't think I'm more engaged then where I was, I was always somebody who read up on the issues, read up about the people running for office, I always voted. But have I gotten a group together in my community to try to change something? No, because I'm a little busy with my project. Hopefully, someday. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:16 Yeah. Well, and we definitely believe that civic engagement can take place through your work too, right? So it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to be some external project that you do on your own time. And certainly, I think your DNP project is a great example of that. And are there other experiences, even little micro experiences that come to mind where you've kind of put some of those concepts into practice? Kim Yue 23:47 Well, hopefully, if this can can happen, we're trying very hard now that COVID has gone away, I will try to be having like a town hall meeting of the community within the hospital, to gather some stories to -6- help inform my class on my classes that I will be teaching for my DNP project. So it hasn't happened yet. But I'm very hopeful that it will. Because I feel very strongly that the community needs to be involved. They need to have ownership and they should tell us what what are the problems that they experienced? We shouldn't just be assuming, just because I've read 500 articles about what people experience, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to be their experience. I mean, if intersectionality has taught us anything, it's that every single person has a different intersection of issues. So if I don't hear directly from the community, I'm not going to know if there's any one particular thing that that has happened to them that I would not have known about. So hoping that will, hopefully that will happen. Elaine Eschenbacher 25:11 Yeah. When you when you imagine those townhall meetings what's your vision? How do you see it playing out? Kim Yue 25:20 So it can be a little daunting to stand up there and say, "What problems have you had?", because I will be the face of the place that possibly could have been causing these problems. So I'm going to be stressing that, you know, we should hear the good things as well as the bad because the good things needs to be reinforced as well, as bad things need to be changed. Because of the some restrictions, still with COVID, it will be a somewhat small group. So I'm retargeting some community leaders within the LGBTQ community in our town in the city. And hopefully, they will be able to make it and and hopefully, they'll be able to have good things and some constructive criticism as well. If we can manage it, I'm also hoping to have a special town hall meeting just with kids and their parents. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:32 Nice. Kim Yue 26:34 Because I'm a pediatric nurse, I know that there's other issues just related to kids that you know, that adults might not have that issue. So yeah, we're hoping to do that as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:47 I hope it works for you. Kim Yue 26:51 Me too. I keep putting it off hoping that it'll go away and we can meet in person because these are very intimate issues. It's kind of impersonal to do that over Zoom, although, if anything has taught us those past two years is that we can form very quickly, we can form some pretty strong relationships over Zoom. You know, my cohort and I are very tight. We're very supportive of each other. And so I'm sure that we could convey that over Zoom, but it's always easier to do in person. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:33 -7- So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and kind of integrate lessons across coursework, across your coursework and community engaged learning? So there's a lot there. It's possible that none do stand out? Kim Yue 27:54 Well, I mean, as I said earlier, every class I learned just a little bit more that just broadens my horizons even more. So it's, the classwork is so carefully constructed that it just builds upon each other, which is just brilliant. So um, I would say that the cosmologies class was probably stood out for me, which I going into that class, I was like, Oh, I do not know what I'm getting to here. I'm not sure about this. This is this just doesn't sound like something I'm gonna be able to grasp. But actually, it really, it definitely, it spoke right to me. And, you know, reinforced the fact that we're, you know, we're all connected. And yes, so actually inspired me to finish my Reiki training. So I became a Reiki Master after that, because it just kind of like, reignited my passion for that. And so yeah, that was and so when you start to look at everybody in the world, as somebody that is a part of you. It definitely makes you view everything differently. Elaine Eschenbacher 29:26 Is there anything that you'd wish you'd learned at Augsburg but haven't yet? Kim Yue 29:37 Well, now I still have a year to go. Um I wouldn't say that it's something I haven't learned. But something that unfortunately our cohort has not been able to do is to go on a lot of the immersions. And so I feel like those are really huge opportunities for some life changing learning right there. So we are hoping to go this coming year. To a little bit of it. I think that's really part of the whole program. Elaine Eschenbacher 30:28 You talked a little bit about this kind of at the beginning, but how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Kim Yue 30:37 Hmm. It's changed so much. I mean, I've always known that there was you know, that individual nurses could be at risk for violence and things like that, but I never really thought of us as being a population that would be so at risk, just physically from from something that we could not control, like the virus. So watching, you know, watching co workers get sick was It was horrifying. You know, and then just thatimmense stress every day of am I bringing this home to my family? I don't want to be around my family because I want to protect them. You know? Anytime you sneeze or something you were like, oh, gosh, isolate me. Yeah, it was a super amount of stress. Nursing was always a stressful profession, but COVID just took that up 10 notches. And now there's so much. We're losing so much staff, like they're they're leaving, but they're not leaving nursing, they're leaving to travel. And then we're getting travelers in and those are not the nurses that we're always used to, and they're very good. And we're very grateful that they're here. But that, that change that flux, it's just it's rough. It's a lot of turnover, the staffing has been so difficult. And I'm not even the staff nurse, but I feel the crunch, you know, so when my patients are in the ICU, I will go to help support them. Because I want to make sure my patients are going to be okay. But I want to make sure that the nurses are okay, too. And so it definitely it's changed -8- a lot about nursing. So I have to give every undergrad nursing student that's in the program right now huge kudos because it definitely, it's hard. It's hard to look at the progression right now. Yeah, it's been difficult. Elaine Eschenbacher 33:13 Thank you. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in making decisions in this constant changing landscape of healthcare? Kim Yue 33:24 I have a voice to a point. I'm supported to a point. I wouldn't say that, my institution, while it's very supportive of everything that I've suggested, it's also still just not fully 100% supportive of APNs and nurse practitioners working to the fullest extent. That's definitely a battle that we need to forge ahead with. We kind of hope that COVID would have kind of changed that and it didn't. So, yes, if there's anything that I suggest, they're like, carte blanche, as long as it's not going to cost us money, you can do whatever you want. But once it gets to the point where well, we need more staff or we need to do this, we should do that. If it's going to cost any money. We're done, that's it. And most things do cost money. Yes. Yes. Well, to be effective, usually. Elaine Eschenbacher 34:44 So now you probably have a good sense of what we're going for. You've heard all my questions. Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask kind of in this category of things? Kim Yue 34:55 I would to just say that Augsburg's biggest treasure is their professors. They're phenomenal. And I am so incredibly grateful to them. That's it. -9-
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Benjawan "Benji" Jearanaivitthayakul , 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Benjawan "Benji" Jearanaivitthayakul (2022) 3/29/2022 • 38:14 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, people, patient, community, dialysis, sex trafficking, clark, problem, life, helped, concepts, feel, educate, project, understand, thought, experience, receive, immerse SPEAKERS...
Show more Oral History with Benjawan "Benji" Jearanaivitthayakul (2022) 3/29/2022 • 38:14 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, people, patient, community, dialysis, sex trafficking, clark, problem, life, helped, concepts, feel, educate, project, understand, thought, experience, receive, immerse SPEAKERS Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul, Elaine Eschenbacher Elaine Eschenbacher 00:07 Thank you for joining me today, Benji for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher, I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work at Augsburg and I'm partnering with Dr. Katie Clark on this project. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 00:35 Hi, my name is Benji. So I am a nursing student of DNP FNP program at Augsburg I am in the second year like a middle of the road. So right now I'm working at inpatient dialysis at Mayo Clinic hospital. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:00 Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having an audio recording of this interview stored at Augsburg University and it could be made available to the public. Do you consent to that? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 01:13 Yes Elaine Eschenbacher 01:14 Thank you. Um, okay, so we'll start out, could you just tell me a little bit about your education background, and what you're currently studying at Augsburg. Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 01:26 So my current I mean, my education background is I received undergrad nursing degree at Century College. And then I went to RN BSN online at Western Governor. And then I went back, and then I -1- went back to the college a couple years ago to get FNP DNP program. So, right now I am in the FNP DNP program at Augsburg. So I am in the second year. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:07 Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged in community. Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 02:16 So when I did undergrad at Century College, so we did some kind of immersion to we did some kind of project with preschool and also, you know, order adults in the nursing home. That was, like a small group project to spend a day with them. And some time we do some project by teaching them like a hand washing in the preschool. So that's kind of like something that I did with community and know about, you know, spending time with community and spending time with the public. So it really helped me to see how how nurse related you know, we always educate people, just you know, like, from you know, from since they are young since they are older. And when I, when I become a nurse, I spend most of my day with their friend, you know, lifespan, even though I do dialysis, mostly for adults, but sometimes I have children and babies that require dialysis as well. So I can see, like from the baby to adult age, like up to 90, over 90. And, but when I did RN, BSN online at Western Governor, it was quite different. I think the only one course that I get to spend a lot of time with the topic was like a capstone that I have to do to finish my clinical hours. So I have to in that time, I did like diabetes, prevention of diabetes. So I just go to a different daycares. And different, what do they call like a nursing home and collect the information and educate those population about how to prevent diabetes. So, and then when I came to Augsburg, I feel like you know, especially last semester that we did that we took the course, Making Room at the Table, with Dr. Clark. She had us to do the field trip. So we went to Breaking Free and the speaker was really amazing. She spoke to her experience about how she become, you know, like, a victim, and how she get out of the life. And now she is helping other girl to get out of the life. And I just feel like that is so powerful. I mean, I have never been that kind of, you know, like experience that kind of situation to learn from people who were the victim, because it's not easy to get to go there to get to experience with them. And unless you know somebody, or they really open to do it for you. So I just think that it really stick with me. And also that project made me do like a final project about sex trafficking. That helped me like dig a little bit deeper about community about how people we are uneducated, about sex trafficking in the United States. Because I grew up in a foreign country. So especially in Thailand, we consider like, you know, third world country, so I understand that why people over there, why do they sell young girls to be prostitute? Because, you know, social circumstances because, you know, maybe they don't have enough food to put on the table, or money is so hard for them to earn. And also, you know, like, women, we don't have a lot of education. So I can see the perception from that. And I would assume that, you know, like, in the United States, we have, you know, we are developed country, we grow economic really good. So, I would assume that, you know, like, sex trafficking would not be the first, you know, like, top priority of this country. But then after I went to a Breaking Free, and I started to do more research, and they found that, oh, my gosh, it's really eye opening that, you know, this country has a lot of problem with sex trafficking. And I think, in you know, especially in Minnesota, I think, is one of the top 10 states that have the most, you know, minors sex trafficking, and I was shocked. And I thought like, we are so liberal, because I live in the small town in Rochester, and I did not see that kind of experience much. You know, even, you know, because it's like -2- a quiet town. But then, you know, when I think about it, when I go to the city, I can see, you know, the difference, you know, and the variety, and I can see why sex trafficking can be a problem in Minnesota. Elaine Eschenbacher 08:11 You touched on some of this already, but I'm going to ask the question anyway, you might have different things to say. How has your view of the role of a nurse changed since studying at Augsburg? Or has it changed? And if so, how? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 08:28 So I started to look at more like, you know, what is the problem in our community? And how can I support them? And how can I help them? How can I get local, I think when one of the documentary that Dr. Clark assigned us to watch, I think it's called Poverty Inc. So, that documentary is you know, like reflecting about, you know, NGOs. How NGOs helped poor country, you know, like, we donate a lot of money to poor country, right. And we thought we we are helping them but really in that documentary, it really made me understand that you know, all the money that we donate, maybe we do not generate the help over there. We just give, give the product so now they are getting used to receiving but not thinking about how they can you know making the product themselves or how can I how can they start the business and sometimes it difficult for the local to start a business because the NGO just give everything for free? How how do local start a business and charge for $10 when another people can get it for free? Right? That is eye opening for me. Because I used to see, you know, like, when NGO trying to collect money, and I used to be like giving them money to that. And it's just now like, I just have to read about like, what kind of, you know, policy? How do they, you know, give money? Or how do they find money to those country, and now I just started to donate more money for local community. So if I, if I donate something, I would like to help local people. So then, you know, like I said, then I feel like, I do the good thing, because I help local people here. That they receive that money, or they use that money to help the local people. Elaine Eschenbacher 10:50 I'm going to give you a list of concepts or any of these concepts, citizen professional or citizen nurse civic engagement or civic skills. Were those discussed in your classes that you've had so far at Augsburg? And if so, which ones do you remember? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 11:08 Well, I think they almost all discussed but what I remember is about civic nurses and civic skills. I remember Dr. Clark invited Dr. Ruth Enestvedt, and then she gave a presentation, and she gave us a lot of example, about how we can be a civic nurse, how we have civic skills for the citizen nurse. And I think one of the skills is that we have to, you know, like, reaching out the community, explore the community. And this is the skill that, you know, I didn't, you know, I didn't realize that. Yeah, we always think about other things outside of us. But then why don't we think, why don't we start from our community first. So for example, when I did the final project, I started to dig deeper about sex trafficking in my community. And I even interview my nurses, you know, like, in my unit. I was shocked that, you know, the two nurses that I interviewed, they have no idea that we have a lot of sex trafficking in Minnesota, they have no idea how to effect you know, the victims. And I just thought, Oh, interesting, you know, like, because this nurses has been nurse for a while, like, at least three year, but they don't -3- even know that we have this kind of problem. They assume the same thing as I did that, you know, sex trafficking is in undeveloped country. So it's not happening in the Minnesota. So I just educate them about here, what I found out about my research, and you know, and I told them about Breaking Free and they were like, what? really? did they really happening? And you know, when city I said, Well, you know what, what I find out that you know, people who have money normally they don't shop for sex trafficking around the local. So normally they would they would travel. Because people here they have money, right? So do we have a lot of Doctor, people who have higher salary, so they just drive up to the city and use the service. So in the research it said, normally, you know, like, middle aged men, they are the buyer and they have like power they and they shopping around it's just go up drive up for 60 to 70 mile to do to get sex and I just calculated, Rochester and Twin Cities is about 70 mile. And then I started to dig deeper in about my hospital. How did they educate nurses about sex trafficking at all? So I just realized that they did have a policy to educate nurses about sex trafficking, However, it's more, you know, towards emergency, you know, to the ER nurse, rather than the floor nurse. And I think floor nurse are the person that they should be educated to because they are the person that can spot them, right? Sometime, you know, like victims, they get hurt or they get injury and they have to stay at the hospital for a while. And those floor nurses should have knowledge to spot them because they are the person who spent a day with them. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:04 It's interesting how you don't see it until somebody opens your eyes and then you can't not see it. Can you tell me a little bit about what experiences you've had in the classroom, what kind of pedagogical practices or coursework that really helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or the citizen nurse? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 15:34 I think Making Room at the Table, give me really, Dr. Clark have a lot of exercise to have us think about how to be a citizen nurse. So we read the books, and also we did the final project about you know, people should have to choose one of the projects that they are interested, and, you know, dig deeper about, you know, your community, and reading the book that related to your topics. And reading the book that related to the sex trafficking. Dr. Clark gave me one book is called Girls Like Us. So I read the book, and I was, I was so shocked about many story, in the book. Like how government funding, you know, lack of resources to help the victims, even some programs, it's just lack of resources. Most of the program will require that the victim have to, you know, have to be some type of like a drug addict, have some kind of involved with a drug problem. And I think I remember one of the girls, she did not have a drug problem, but she wanted to get out of the life. So then she did not qualify for this program. So it's just eye opening. For me, it's like, you want to help them, but there is no program to fit her. And you know, what she did she just disappear from the safe house for a while, half a day. And then when she came back, she and now excitedly said that I have smoke crack. So now I'm eligible for the drug program that I can get out of the life. And that was eye opening for me that, you know, like many programs do not fit everybody. And if some people, they don't fit to that requirement, they don't get help. Elaine Eschenbacher 18:07 -4- Do you feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare institutions? Because of your educational experiences at Augsburg? And if so, how? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 18:23 So I think I can so because I just feel like, you know, Augsburg, really give me the kind of, you know, critical thinking, to apply the skills that I have, you know, like, to, to start from, you know, from the local, and see what I see as a problem. And now, when we see as the problem, and how, how do we fix the problem. And who, like a stake holder that we need to contact. And how do we reach the support from other local community, and trying to get their attention and bring that problem to them, so then they can be aware. And I think, you know, if we started from there, we can gain knowledge, and also we can gain solution. I mean, I'm a little people, but I think with little people, and if we can get support from the local, we can make a change. Elaine Eschenbacher 19:38 So thinking back, and I know you're right in the middle of it, but thinking back on your time at Augsburg so far, what could have helped you better understand civic skills or these concepts that we've already highlighted in this interview? So what could have helped you better understand them? And what concepts or issues were most challenging to understand? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 20:02 I would like to have more like, you know, experienced field trip. Yeah. So, and I know, it has been two years that we have, you know, COVID. And we kind of like limits about, you know, like field trip and going to immerse ourselves to that kind of experience with the local community. When you know, some community, they even close temporarily, they don't accept you to visit. And you know, I hope that in the future, we can have more, you know, field trip, and immerse your community more, so then we can know what the problem is. And then after, you know, we visit, the community is really nice to just brief discuss about, like a brainstorm about, what did you learn about community today? And how do you think we can be how we can apply civic skills to this community? How can we improve our community to be better? Elaine Eschenbacher 21:18 Were there any concepts or issues that were raised in your classes that were more challenging or to understand than others? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 21:36 For example, like a mental health issue, you know, as a nurse, when I see the patient, and, you know, when they are in psychosis, you know, episode, I feel like I want to help them. And if you think about our job to help them to get better, right. And, for example, you know, they're, you know, like people who have schizophrenia, and when they are in the episode of schizophrenic, I just want to give them the medication to help them calm down, and to feel better. But then, you know, some patient refused the medications, because they just think, you know, they don't hear that voice anymore. And some people did think that the voice was calming themselves down. And it's like, a soothing for them. But for me, it seemed like it's hard to see them going through. It's just, it's an ethical issue. I think it's just, I think, you know, it's hard to draw the line that what's your ideal, you know, I want to help them to get better, but -5- they refuse to receive the med, then. I think one of the assignment that Dr. Clark assigned to watch a movie about a guy who went through like a psychotic episode and about that whole life. Do you remember what the movie was? Oh, the movie names, The Soloist. So, that movie really eye opening for me. And I think that movie just made me feel like now. Now I am the person who just watch, I'm not the nurse. So I don't need to intervenes. And I just watch, you know, the patient going through and I just watched him that, you know, they have autonomy to choose what they want to do with their life. They can choose to be not to receive the medication. And thus it's okay to you know, as long as they don't harm other people and they don't harm themself. I cannot force them to do anything that they don't want to. I mean, it's hard to watch them in that episode. But then, you know, to be a civic nurse, you have to understand that people have choices, and people have freedom to choose that choice. Elaine Eschenbacher 25:03 Have any of the course concepts that we've been talking about impacted your current practice or understanding of the profession of nursing? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 25:14 Yes. So talking about, respecting people choices about a goal of care, or, you know, there are some time that people, you know, they get tired of dialysis, and they just refuse to receive dialysis. But then, you know, like, the health care provider trying to manage them and not, you know, having them, you know, have to go to code blue by having high potassium, so, asking them to do dialysis. And sometimes people, you know, they just feel like they don't have a choice, or they are forced to do. So I just, you know, if they are open to talk to me, and I would just address that to the healthcare provider to their doctor, and maybe we need to have, like a care plan. We need to talk to the, you know, to the patient and their family, and discuss the goal here, because, you know, he has the patient wishes, and this is a provider wishes, and is doesn't match. So, we want to do the best for the patient, and the patient is the person that we are, we are aiming for. So I think, you know, getting through this had really helped me to think about, we need to respect people, we need to respect patient more. So we need to value their decision, not just, you know, our perspective that we want to provide them quality of life by keep doing diagnosis, or do whatever. But did you really ask them? Do they want to do it? Do they want to go through it? It's just gave me that kind of perspective, like, ethical issue as well, that, you know, we need to listen to both sides, and have the patient be the persons who pick, you know, the care that they want, the care that they need the thing that served them the best. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:42 So it sounds like you face that in your daily work all the time? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 27:47 You do? Yeah. And I just thought, you know, before I just thought, like, do we need to help them, you know, get better. And you know, like, you know, get them out of the hospital have them a quality life. But do we really, you know, ask them what they really want to do. Some patient you just saw them, I can see them like they feel miserable. And why are they doing this? Is it for themselves? For their family, or for what? Elaine Eschenbacher 28:24 -6- Which experiences that you've had at Augsburg so far stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and then integrate lessons across your coursework and community engaged learning. Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 28:40 So, I think, you know, like the coursework at Augsburg really made me think about volunteer at the community. So, I know I want to go volunteer at Health Commons of inner city, but it's quite far of a drive. But I do volunteer at the community down here when they have a free times. So I volunteer at the food bank here as well. And I also volunteer at Good Samaritan Clinic to be a nurse there for quite some time during, you know, when they have a school time off. So I just thought, you know, like a helping community is a good way to serve our community. Elaine Eschenbacher 29:39 I know you're only partway through your time at Augsburg, but so far, is there anything that you wish you learned during your time here but haven't yet? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 29:54 I missed the opportunity to go to many field trip in my first year. So in my first year, like I signed up for Amish community, because I want to learn about Amish. Because I think their lives so interesting. And I did not know much about Amish community, even though I live close to Amish community here. But I thought a sign up to spend time at Amish community would be a really good experience, but then the trip was canceled. So I wish to learn about that. And I also, you know, like I signed up for civil rights trip as well to learn about Dakota people. But it was canceled two years in a row. And I just, I feel like, I missed those, you know, like, experience, and I'm not sure if this year they're gonna do it again or not. But you know, this year, I have many classes that I have to take, and I may not be able to take time off for that. Sometimes it's just time and the thing in our life, just not matching. So it was a bummer. Elaine Eschenbacher 31:39 How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 31:53 Wow, pandemics really make our job more challenging. Yeah, so if you think about it, like, at the first year, when COVID just started, everybody scared to take care of the COVID patient, they're scared of contracting COVID, and then bring the COVID back to their home. And, yeah, it's quite a, you know, challenging for all of us. And also at work, we have to do a lot of precaution. I become like, I have to clean nursing station on the computer every time before I make the badge in and before I use the computer, because you never know who use that computer? And do they wash their hands? Yeah, I'd become like, you know, have to clean up everything. And before I entered to the COVID patients, it's just, you know, we have to wear ISO gown, we have to wear, you know, N95, and sometimes just feel like it's just exhausting. Sometimes I just feel like I didn't want to be a nurse anymore, because it's just so exhausting. And it just changed the way that you know, we learned about COVID. So, like I said, the trip was cancel, so we didn't get the experience that we need to be doing. So we have to do more, you know, online classes. And it's just some time, it's just your online class. It is nice. However, sometimes it's nice to just immerse yourself to that kind of experience. Because just see it, smell it, experience it, listen to it, and just be there. So then you understand a situation is not just from reading. I mean, I took, -7- like, learning about health disparity in Africa. And that class should be like a field trip in Africa, but I took over online because, you know, in that year was COVID. So it does feel like it's a lot of reading the book was good. But then it just feel like, Oh, I missed the experience to really go there. And, you know, like really see how the people look like. Because, of course I was on the TV and it was on the documentary, but it's not the same as being there yourself. I would want to say that how COVID change everything. So but we have to adapt to it because obviously in that time we did not have much choices rather than go online. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:16 Do you feel like you have been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? And if so, how? And if no, why not? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 35:28 Got it. So, sometimes I think I do, because sometimes I should bring up you know, like, some issue with, you know, with the patient, especially like patient Co-op care. So, we need to be addressed, and we need to have the doctor on board. So, I addressed that and, you know, like some doctor, sometime, Doctor, you know, they agree. But sometime, we have some kind of conflict, about how some patient, they have mental health as well, when they are on dialysis. And when they, you know, when they talk to me, or when they discuss the goal of care with me, and they talk one thing, right, and then when we bring it up, and we address, you know, with the healthcare provider, and then the healthcare provider would say to me that, you know, because the patient has some kind of mental health, she is not capable to make her own decision. So, it is quite challenging. So then who will be the person who make decision for her. And it have to go by that person rather than her herself. So I just thought, you know, like, sometimes it's more complicated than what I can do. Elaine Eschenbacher 37:18 That was the last question, but I would just like to ask if there's anything else you'd like to share on any of these topics? Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 37:28 I can think of it right now. I think I have talking a lot. Elaine Eschenbacher 37:38 Oh, it's great. It's great. Thank you. Well, I want to thank you so much for your time and your insight on this. I know that you're busy and you've got a lot going on. And we really appreciate you contributing and participating in this project. -8-
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Elizabeth Stulac, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Elizabeth Stulac 4/21/2022 • 36:41 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, people, nursing, nurse, experiences, interviewed, helped, class, leadership, learned, mentor, professors, staff, unit, common theme, general, feel, pedagogical practices, biases, questions SPEAKERS Elaine Eschen...
Show more Oral History with Elizabeth Stulac 4/21/2022 • 36:41 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, people, nursing, nurse, experiences, interviewed, helped, class, leadership, learned, mentor, professors, staff, unit, common theme, general, feel, pedagogical practices, biases, questions SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Elizabeth Stulac Elaine Eschenbacher 00:08 Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work at Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Elizabeth Stulac 00:30 Yeah. My name is Elizabeth Stulac. I am a registered nurse at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota. I've been a registered nurse for a little over eight years, I've worked in cardiac surgery, the medical ICU and now I'm the RRT (Rapid Response Team) nurse for the hospital and then I work in the eICU, which is telehealth, ICU. And then I'm also the chair of the Department of Nursing Diversity, Equity and Inclusion council. So we have been doing a lot of work there as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:05 Awesome. Great. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and having this interview stored at Augsburg University where it will be made available to the public. Elizabeth Stulac 01:19 Yes, Elaine Eschenbacher 01:20 Okay. Um, to start, if you could tell me a little bit about your educational background, and what you're currently studying at Augsburg? Elizabeth Stulac 01:29 Yeah. So my educational background actually, should I go like how far back? Elaine Eschenbacher 01:38 However far feels relevant. -1- Elizabeth Stulac 01:40 So I actually think it's a big deal, because I to say, like my high school, because I didn't actually do very well in high school. And I ended up graduating from an Alternative Learning Center, which is known as like for bad kids. So I graduated from an ALC in a smaller town of Elk River, Minnesota, where I feel like my professors, actually it had smaller classes. My professors were very, like, very much more aware of me and who I was, and not just teaching a big class I wasn't left behind. I did very well actually ended up graduating early from that school. And I was given a $1,500 scholarship to go to college. So I first started at Anoka Ramsey Community College, which is a two year college. And I think that $1,500 and just having my high school teachers really believe in me, really made a huge impact because I was not going down a good road. Once I got into college, and I had I know I had people that had my back. And I was actually really interested in the stuff I was learning. I got a 4.0 I would I did a lot better. I got my two year degree, an Associates of Arts degree. And then I went on for my bachelor's in the science of nursing degree at St. Cloud State. And then I got a job at Mayo Clinic. So I've been working there again for about eight years. In 2020, that's when I applied for my graduate program. And I originally I didn't really know what I wanted to do, I thought I wanted to be an FNP so I went to school for the FNP program at Augsburg. I feel like the universe kind of like pulled me in a different direction, because I finished a year and a half of my FNP program and I was spending so much more time on dismantling, organizational biases and spending so much more time on trying to figure all of this stuff out and like people power mapping and doing all of that that I wasn't really focused on my FNP work as much so that's when this last semester I actually spoke with Katie Clark, who's been like a major mentor for me and like role model. And she I talked to her and Joyce Miller and I decided to switch programs. So I went back and I'm going through leadership now. So I'm in the Masters of Arts and leadership transformational leadership, which has a lot of you know, transcultural nursing and diversity, equity and inclusion and anti racism work and it just feels so much more better for where I'm at where my what my passion is. Elaine Eschenbacher 04:56 Yeah. Awesome. And that's a great success story of alternative learning centers too. Elizabeth Stulac 05:16 Yeah, yeah. And it just shows like the power of like, having people believe in you. Honest. Yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:25 Nice. Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged in the community or being able to create change in institutions? Elizabeth Stulac 05:39 Before I came to Augsburg, I think I had a lot of questions about the world around me. And I knew that there was disadvantages for certain people. But I wasn't really sure how to go about it. I didn't have the skill set. I didn't know really what to do. So I think I viewed myself as a ICU nurse. And I was a preceptor at the time, I was a charge nurse, but I never really saw the bigger picture. I don't think like, I think I had a lot of like trauma, honestly, like, racial trauma from my past, because I'm Asian American, and grew up in like, you know, I was in a diverse city at first, and then I was like, the only person of -2- color in like, smaller towns, and I think I just kind of fell into this, you know, this, this stereotype. And I would stereotype myself too. And I would think, you know, I can't really do what other people are doing. You know, there's not many people of color in leadership. Like, there's not many things that I can do. I kind of feel like I was stuck in place, if that makes sense. Elaine Eschenbacher 07:06 Yeah. Thank you. Has your view of your role as a nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so how? Elizabeth Stulac 07:20 My view of it as a nurse changed dramatically from being at Augsburg. I think just the biases that they teach about and you know, racism is a public health crisis and transcultural nursing, and just the bigger picture of historical trauma and really seeing the world as a whole the community efforts that they do, bringing you into the community and actually engaging with these community members and talking to them and seeing them and learning from them. I think just makes you a more well rounded, not even just nurse, but an individual, which impacts you as a nurse because, you know, they co-align. So I think my worldview actually changed a little bit just from coming to Augsburg, I was able to broaden my worldview instead of being so narrow. Elaine Eschenbacher 08:23 That's quite a testimony. So thinking about your courses at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional or the citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in your classes? And if so, which do you remember, what stands out? Elizabeth Stulac 08:44 They were discussed. I think the biggest things that I take away are Harry Boyte's civic skills. And I've used a lot of them. And actually, those skills are what are helping me with in being Chair of the Diversity Equity Inclusion Council that I'm on right now. They're helping me engage with different leaders gain partnerships. I think power mapping was a big thing. And just trying to, you know, one on one interviews, reaching out to these people and trying to, you know, share interests, try to figure out what our shared interests are. And if we can work together for the common good of humanity, and small group meetings. I literally use I think, most skills and I've said, I've sent his skills out actually to a lot of people that have been trying to do this work for years. There's a lot of people that have been trying to do this work for years. And I think if they would have had those skills, they could have gone they could have gotten maybe, you know, times have changed, maybe. But they could have gotten maybe a little bit farther. Elaine Eschenbacher 10:05 I'm interested if there's like a specific story, a specific example that you can give from your work where one of those civic skills really played out? Elizabeth Stulac 10:15 Yeah, oh, I have a lot, actually. So I guess it started in a couple of years ago, where I used one on one interviewing. And I interviewed BIPOC staff actually on the front line, so within the Department of -3- Nursing. And I really just talked to them. And I told them, you know, like, it'll be mostly you sharing your experiences, I learned how to ask open ended questions, so I could really listen to them, I learned how to be quiet, which is actually a big thing. During a conversation, when you kind of want it to like free flow. I learned, that was probably where it started. So I interviewed 10 BIPOC staff, and I asked for their experiences on racism throughout their life. A lot of their stories, I gained a common theme, which was they had experienced stereotyping and racism within nursing, like at the bedside. And these are all Allied health staff. So there was PCAs, there was a social worker, there was lab techs. And they all shared common themes, which and then I asked them for their advice for change, like how would you change this. And the common themes were that they wanted more representation within leadership. They wanted mentorship programs like specifically for them, because we have a very homogenous leadership. And there needs to be pathways for to diversify leadership, because no, no business in general is good with an a homogenous leadership. And I feel like that it also truly impacts our patients. Because on the front lines, especially I worked in the COVID ICU, you see the racial health disparities. And they're the majority of our ICU during the first and second wave of COVID, were all ethnic minorities, and a lot of them didn't speak English. So you really need those staff that are on the front lines that can advocate for these patients, call to be culturally aware, their family is not able to be there for them, especially during COVID. So I use those, and I documented them. And then I went, I applied for a conference, which I found out, actually through power mapping and trying to build partnerships with other people that and making them aware of this. So I actually found out through a physician, not through one of my nurse leaders, and I went to this conference, it was called Rise for Equity, in Minneapolis, and I presented all of these stories. And it was more a leadership conference. So there were all leaders there, and a corporate conference, so they were people from inside of Mayo and outside. And it just really made them more aware of the situations going on. From that, I was able to like network and build more partnerships with people that have a common, you know, mission as me. So I gained a lot of partnerships. And then I applied to be the chair of the Department of Nursing, Diversity Equity Inclusion Council, and that, I think, was a huge step in the right direction, because Mayo has never had DEI within the Department of Nursing. So from there, I was able to kind of map out even more, you know, we need to collect data. So I was a I know I'm not good at that. So I was able to find, email people and introduce myself and, you know, form one on one meetings and try to get a feel for them and have tell them what's going on and have shared interests. So now we actually partnered with so many people within the diversity science department, just from these little meetings, you know, and there's researchers now that are going to help us collect this data and there's so many different programs that we want to work on. One of them which is another huge thing for citizen nursing is we understand that you need to hear the people on the front lines like the people that it truly matters. So BIPOC staff I don't know if you know this, but in general, within the Department of Nursing at Mayo, and I think throughout the nation is very much at the bottom of a hierarchy. And then once you go more and more higher to the top of the hierarchy, it becomes more homogenous. And I think there's maybe a handful of BIPOC staff. So if you really want to affect our patients, which is Mayo's number one value, is our patients come first, you really have to listen to the frontline staff. So now we're coming up with this EID (equity, inclusion, diversity unit Engagement Project), which we presented it to our CNO. And our CNO is actually one of our other partners that I was able, you know, to build connections with. And I wrote her a letter and just tried to kind of met one on one with her. And so now we meet with our CNO, actually my co chair and I every other month. And that's a huge partnership, like just people in power that really can help you with this mission. But our unit engagement project I'm so excited for so we will -4- have equity inclusion, diversity champions within each unit at Mayo Clinic, inpatient and outpatient. So those champions, we are going to have bi-directional information. And they'll collect data and with their units, and then they'll come to the council, which is about 20 members of nurses, allied health staff, administrators, registered nurses, social workers everywhere down, but we'll connect with them build a relationship, we'll try to bring these opportunities, so many opportunities, professional development opportunities to each unit. So we'll kind of eliminate the middle barrier, and have people that these units people on their units actually have a relationship with which I think is, again, super important. And then you can build further partnerships and further projects and really just affect each unit, which is 55 inpatient units and more outpatient. And then I think it'll have really good success hopefully. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:28 It sounds like you're laying the groundwork. That's fantastic. Can you tell me about which experiences or pedagogical practices either in the classroom or your coursework really helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen nurse? Elizabeth Stulac 17:48 Yeah. So can you explain that word, though? Elaine Eschenbacher 17:52 Pedagogical practices that one? Yeah. So like, ways of teaching or like what kinds of course or classroom experiences so like, lecture is one example. Immersion might be another hands on. Elizabeth Stulac 18:10 Okay, so, I think one of the biggest classes that and one of my first classes at Augsburg was it was Dismantling White Body Supremacy. It was a practicum. And Katie Clark actually taught it. And I think that was probably one of my favorite classes, and the one that maybe helped me think a little bit more outside the box to begin with, where they go into, you know, like, just your own body and be aware of like your own, you know, triggers and you're just more mindful. Which I actually had a lot of like, historical trauma that I think I held up in my body that I just didn't even know about until I took that class. I think the smaller like, group or the smaller classrooms, even though they're pretty large, but not like, I'm not like I was in high school, you know, smaller classes are so much more beneficial, you can actually engage and I think the professors at Augsburg are just so amazing. Like, they really, it's not just like, they want to teach you but they really empower you to believe that you can create change. So, and I've heard this not just for myself, but other my co-chair actually went to Augsburg too, so very, very much the same outlook. I think that was a huge one. Honestly, most of the classes. Reiki was, I forget what practicum I was but I was practicing Reiki to which I think are actually helped me be more, it helps me cope throughout COVID, honestly, and I brought that, you know, like different healing practices actually to my unit. And I was able to, like change the whole energy of our unit and like, make people a lot more satisfied and feel like they're creating a change. You know, that was another huge one. I took a practicum in Namibia, like online, I wish I could have gone there. But that was a huge one, too. You just get to learn more about like different aspects and different worldviews. I think a huge one was going I think it was 802, which Katie Clark actually taught. And we did a lot of, I guess, historical things. So you want it was more like you have to figure out what challenge you have. And then it was the you have to research the historical limitations behind that. And I think just that class in general, -5- made me really research racism within nursing, and like how much our history has impacted where we are today, which I had no idea about until I took that class. The class Complexity Leadership was amazing to this last one, because it really, I mean, the book, it was dismantling organizational bias. We talked more about one on one interviews, and even now I learned, like, I'm taking that more with me, because I'm getting to know the physicians I work with, and other people that are so different than me, but actually like learning from them and learning about their differences and how we can, you know, still learn from each other and how diversity is so important. And not just diversity, but inclusion, you have to like, include people, there's a there's a lot. But I think the professors, in general, have been one of the biggest takeaways, because they really care about you, and they care about your life outside of school. They don't if you have a problem, you know, they know that you're working too, and they know that you have outside home life that you need to manage. So they're very much okay, with with everything, you know, I don't know how to explain that, I guess. But they're just very supportive. Very supportive. Yeah. And I think that's probably the biggest thing. Elaine Eschenbacher 22:48 So some of these questions kind of overlap, or you've, you've anticipated them a little bit. But maybe you'll want to add to it. Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions? Because of your experience at Augsburg? Elizabeth Stulac 23:03 Yes, 100% 100%. Actually. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:07 you've definitely illustrated that, do you have any other thought to add to it? Elizabeth Stulac 23:14 I just love that Augsburg like, really teaches you about not just what's inside of an organization and inside of like, patient care and everything like that, but they really look at the big picture. Like it's not just your organization, it's the community around you, too. And how we're all connected, honestly. And your professors, they just empower you to create change. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:50 So this question kind of gets at what could we do better? So what could have helped you better understand civic skills, or the other concepts we've highlighted in this interview? And which ones were the most challenging to grasp? Elizabeth Stulac 24:05 I don't even know if there's anything that you could do better. I'm going to try to think about something because there's always something that people should do better. Um maybe after think on that one can come back to it. Elaine Eschenbacher 24:25 -6- Yeah, that sounds good. Um, so you've also kind of answered this, but I'll ask it anyway. And you can add to it if you want. Did any of the course concepts, these course concepts impact your current practice, or your understanding of the profession of nursing? Elizabeth Stulac 25:00 Yeah, yeah, they all have actually, I think they make me look at other points of view other people's point of view a little bit better. And to understand that I have my own biases. And I can always, you know, try to learn from other people. And even if we don't have the same outlook on something, there's a reason normally that they don't think that way. And you just have to try to ask them or figure it out why they have so many different people have different aspects of, you know, leadership, and they're doing it for a reason. So it really makes you more, I guess, aware of other people and their jobs, and that they're not doing stuff just to be mean. They're doing stuff for a reason, and they really are trying. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:06 So thinking back on your various experiences at Augsburg, which experiences stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and kind of integrate these lessons across your coursework and community engaged learning? What experiences kind of brought it all together for you? Elizabeth Stulac 26:28 Ah, I think every experience I've had, most of them. I think that Racism as a Public Health Crisis. That was a really big, important class in general. And I think the experiences of like class discussion and getting to know your classmates, and kind of building connections there too, because you can really partner with your classmates on certain issues. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:16 Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't or haven't yet? Elizabeth Stulac 27:24 So I haven't learned this fully yet. But I do think just in my what I'm doing right now, because I'm doing a lot of project management and a lot of like, coordination. I don't know if like there's a tool or more just like project management skills, or even just like giving us a tool of organization would be helpful. But I know I've talked to Joyce about that, too. And I can just any feedback that I've given to the instructors, it seems like they listen and they'll, like, grasp on it and do it for the next class. Elaine Eschenbacher 28:06 Yeah, I hear that the you have the conceptual leadership stuff. You need some of the hands on implementation kinds of leadership things. Elizabeth Stulac 28:16 Yes, a tool would be great, some sort of Excel tool that they teach you about that helps you organize when you're like doing this, because I'm doing a departmental wide project right now. So it's a lot of just organization and but I'm learning. Elaine Eschenbacher 28:40 -7- So this question is sometimes a big one, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Elizabeth Stulac 28:50 The pandemics changed my view a lot, honestly. But mostly, I think, because I've worked in the COVID ICU. And I think just like seeing healthcare disparities, or racial health disparities, in general, like seeing it face first, instead of just learning about it really, really impacted me, especially because, you know, my dad's Vietnamese and it really hits home for you when you know that your family is more at risk or you yourself are more at risk, because of biases and different things in society. I think that was probably one of the biggest like, things for me. And then just like how resilient you can be and how much you can advocate for these people. These patients that really need you and they need you not even just at the bedside, but you can do so much with helping outside of the scenes helping those people that are at the bedside, helping the organization, you can do so much for your patients and the community around you. Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing. Elaine Eschenbacher 30:22 Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Elizabeth Stulac 30:31 I think personally, I had to fight for a voice, which I think Augsburg actually helped me with. And my professors actually helped me with, like, just giving me the tools, because I already had, you know, the passion, but I just needed the tools to figure out how to get there. And I think I had to do a lot of fighting and, and navigating. And I'm very glad that I had those tools. Because otherwise, I wouldn't have been able to be where I am today. And hopefully, I'm even if it's like the littlest change, you know, like, I'm creating some sort of impact for the next generation. Elaine Eschenbacher 31:20 Is there anything else you would like to share that I didn't ask? 31:22 Oh the question that you asked before? Yeah, how they could do better. I'm thinking about mentoring. That's probably just because I know, just for professional development in general, how important mentoring is and, and for BIPOC, or just any, you know, historically, underrepresented person, I think a mentoring program would be super cool, which I'm trying to create within the Department of Nursing, too. But it would be awesome if like, they did something like that, where you know that somebody in the year ahead of you even could come back and talk to the students and maybe even just like, have one person, mentor a couple students or try to pair them in a certain way. There's, there's a ton of there's certain questions you can ask, you know, like, if the mentor wants this personality, or what kind of skills they need? Or like, do they care about if the person looks like them? Or speaks their first language? And I think that would actually help a ton. Elaine Eschenbacher 32:39 -8- That's a really cool idea. What do you think? I can make some assumptions, but I want to hear it from your voice. What would it help with? Elizabeth Stulac 32:48 So just from my own experience, I think it would be nice, like, I'm, I'm so glad, like my professors were my mentors. But you get a different point of view from somebody that like just gone through a class with you or they have, you know, they're still at the bedside, and they have certain experiences, lived experiences of you, I think a big thing for BIPOC staff from interviewing them. A huge thing is that they want somebody that empathizes with them. And whether that be somebody that has walked in their shoes before or had similar experiences. Just seeing them a semester ahead of you, or even outside of the profession would be cool to like, what are like, you know, your senior year? Or what do you want to do? This is somebody that graduated before you that did this, you know, and they if they can do it, like all the BIPOC staff I've interviewed, a very common theme was that if they see somebody that looks like them, that did it, they think they can do it, too. So it's just more confidence, you feel better, like explaining yourself, like I'm struggling with this. And you think it diminishes the biases, just biases that you have growing up, you know, wherever you live, those are the people that you are surrounded by, if you live in a white neighborhood and your whole life, you're going to be surrounded by white people. And I think there's a lot of biases that come with that. So that would be awesome, honestly. So I'm trying to do that within the Department of Nursing right now. A lot of the interviews were like, in school, too, and not at Augsburg, but like other schools, their nursing programs. There's a lot of things that these people have had to jump through, and, their professors have told them straight out like 'you can't do this.' Um, so I think just having somebody that understands you a little bit more. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:15 That's a great idea. We may have to call you and ask you to be a mentor at some point. Elizabeth Stulac 35:20 No, totally. I would love that. Yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:25 Anything else come to mind that you want to add? Elizabeth Stulac 35:30 I'm just very grateful. I think I think the nursing program in general is amazing. And I know that even people that have gone through social work programs, there other programs, they very much feel the same thing. Like they feel empowered to, you know, do their job and help actually really create a difference for people when they graduate. So I'm very much I guess, pro Augsburg now, just from my own experience. Elaine Eschenbacher 36:05 Well, thank you so much for your time and insight and answering our questions. It's been really great to talk to you and I appreciate both the work that you do that contributes to this project, but also the work that you do as a nurse in this super trying time. It's so important so thank you for that too. -9- Elizabeth Stulac 36:28 And thank you! - 10 -
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Jenna Nelson, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2022) 4/5/2022 • 33:07 SUMMARY KEYWORDS nurse, people, Augsburg, community, role, pandemic, nursing, feel, primary care providers, patient, antivirals, healthcare, er, citizen, concepts, Park Nicollet, health, experience, skills, commons SPEAKERS Elaine Esche...
Show more Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2022) 4/5/2022 • 33:07 SUMMARY KEYWORDS nurse, people, Augsburg, community, role, pandemic, nursing, feel, primary care providers, patient, antivirals, healthcare, er, citizen, concepts, Park Nicollet, health, experience, skills, commons SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Jenna Nelson Elaine Eschenbacher 00:06 Thanks for joining me today, Jenna for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. And would you please introduce yourself for the recording? Jenna Nelson 00:28 My name is Jenna Nelson. I'm a nurse and I work in the emergency department and I work as a triage nurse. And I'm a student also. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:36 Great, thank you. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having a recording of that interview stored at Augsburg University where it could be made available to the public. Jenna Nelson 00:49 Yes, great. Thanks. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:55 Tell me a little bit about your education background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg. Jenna Nelson 01:01 Yeah, so I went, I did my undergrad for a bachelor's at the University of Minnesota. And then I took a good about eight years out of school, and then I went back in 2017, to do the Doctorate of Nursing Practice program. And I should be graduating shortly. And I don't think I've done really much else education wise than that. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:28 -1- Yeah, that's a lot. Before you came to answer you were working as a nurse, is that right? For the eight year period? Okay, so before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse with regard to being engaged in community or creating change institutions? Jenna Nelson 01:50 Um, I think especially working in the ER, I just saw myself as somebody who would care for whatever community I was working in, regardless of the need and the acuity of like, their situation when they come to the ER. And that's kind of the, to the extent of it. Sometimes I'd have friends that would ask healthcare type questions, but really, I just my role was mostly while I was like, clocked in and so ER, really does work with surrounding community a lot. So that was, that was about it. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:27 Has your view of the role of nurse of a nurse changed since being at Augsburg? Jenna Nelson 02:35 Yeah, dramatically, I think. I felt like nursing was one of those things where, you know, people did it because there was some kind of drive to do it. And, but that, like, again, it was just something where you clock in and you do it, and then you go home, and you do regular day to day stuff. But with the program I'm in, even early on in the program, we had classes that allowed for us to do stuff in the community, and then just introduced us to programs within the community, where in some of these programs, nurses worked with other like, professionals, or members of that community to, you know, accomplish a goal. And so I just started seeing all the different ways even I did like a thing at the Capitol. And it was about, no, it was It wasn't at the Capitol, but it was a conference but I think the last day we went to the Capitol, and it was policymaking. And so to me, too, that really opened my eyes to how they can advocate in that kind of realm for changes within healthcare and just in general community health. Elaine Eschenbacher 03:43 So it sounds like there was definitely a shift in how you view nursing and the role of an of a nurse, can you name what the shift was? Jenna Nelson 03:52 Yeah, I think the role would be more just kind of like for me, I guess I saw people doing it more for like a purpose driven reason versus a income driven reason. So that to me, it was interesting. And I think yeah, as the years went on, too, I could see more and more how how nurses can have that like role. Elaine Eschenbacher 04:32 I'm gonna list a few different concepts and ask you if you remember them being discussed in your class. So do you remember concepts like citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills being discussed in any of your classes? And if so, what what stands out in your memory? What do you remember? Jenna Nelson 04:52 -2- I remember we read the Citizen Solution. And we even had the author come in, we were lucky enough to have him come in and he just kind of told us about himself and some things he'd been involved with, and we got to ask some questions. But the citizen nurse too with being at the Health Commons, I started volunteering there to get practicum hours that I had to have. And then I just started coming in occasionally when I could. And we talked a lot about citizen nurse there as well, just using our knowledge if it was elicited by community members to just to be available and consider, like, what else could a role be in that environment? And then kind of consult with the people in that environment? You know, do you need a role like this? What do you need from us? Elaine Eschenbacher 06:14 How would you describe the role in that environment? Jenna Nelson 06:18 Um, gosh. It's interesting, because it's, it's nice, because it's not that hierarchy that you see, honestly, in most medical facilities. It's more of a, it even feels more of a shared space, which when Katie talked about it, I didn't know I was like, how does that work? But I do feel like I'm, it's not my space. It's like their space when the community members that utilize it are there. A lot of nursing schools and education and undergrad and graduate, they talk about this whole idea of nurses having this type of role. And they don't always define it as like the citizen nurse type role. But this is a very good example of that in action, it's probably the best example I've seen. And it's hard, because a lot of the stuff that happens there, I'm still trying to figure out ways to articulate it and describe it. I think the only way you really can describe some of it is if people wrote down their interactions with individuals, and then people that are coming in and utilizing this kind of service or open space. Also, if they could write down, you know, certain interactions they had with the nurses and the volunteers there to kind of weed out what that difference is. Elaine Eschenbacher 07:47 That'd be an interesting next research project for sure. The idea of shared space is interesting, because like, when I think about, you know, if I have to go to urgent care clinic or whatever, I don't think of that as my space. But with Health Commons, it sounds very different. Jenna Nelson 08:04 Yeah, it is, I mean, people come in, and they can just kind of take a seat, and they just talk. And sometimes there's some people that are there, and they stay almost the whole time. And then some people just literally come in for the free store. They're in and out as quick as they can be. But I've had people ask questions, ask him about resources, some people just kind of having a rough time. And so or it's their first experience with being unhoused or experiencing homelessness, and so just kind of not necessarily being like, Oh, let me solve your problem. Here you go. Just listening and seeing if there's anything I know of that might be beneficial for them. And if they're interested, then I can share more. If not, then, you know, my overall role is just to kind of be present and available for questions that people have it. Elaine Eschenbacher 08:54 What about the civic skills? Do you remember discussing civic skills in any of your classes? -3- Jenna Nelson 09:00 Yeah, in our politics of healthcare class, and then one of the earlier ones too, I feel like we talked a lot about that. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around it because it's not, I feel like if you work in policy, or like, you get an undergrad degree in politics or something, I don't know, it feels like that's where a lot of that discussion will happen. And so I'm still trying to understand it more, just the ideas behind. Elaine Eschenbacher 09:35 Can you tell me about which experiences in your classroom or coursework, helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or the citizen nurse? What specific kind of pedagogical practices that you experienced? Jenna Nelson 09:54 Being brought into that environment and like actually seeing it in practice observing so that I felt comfortable and then actually be able to do it myself. And then for me in particular, I've been lucky enough to been offered like a role as an intern and then now even further that might go further once I'm done with school, which is amazing. But other things would be just I went to like this conference, again about health care policy, and I can't remember the exact name of it, but just to talk about how nurses can use their their title basically, and their experience and knowledge to advocate for something. Like a policy change on a state or even like, like larger level. Elaine Eschenbacher 10:52 Do you personally feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your educational experiences at Augsburg? Jenna Nelson 11:02 I don't know. I wish there was more of it truthfully. And for me, I'm not, I wouldn't say like at all leadership material, so to say, but I think there are certain qualities where maybe because I don't see myself as leadership material, I might do well in certain areas of leading people or influencing people to kind of, you know, consider things or even teach. But I think it would have been good to have more of the types of things where you went to the community and saw these programs and got to meet people who started them or around them, or who experienced certain obstacles and barriers in their life that led them to where they were. Yeah, so for me, too, personally, like I said, I'm more of a person that, I work hard, I want to be on the team. But the leading thing, I would want more hands on, like, so to speak. Elaine Eschenbacher 12:15 You talked about politics of change. Were there other things that you did as part of your coursework, where you did have some more of that hands on step or where you did interact with people who were involved in the kinds of things you just discussed. Jenna Nelson 12:33 Um, just basically, like practicum hours that I did. And those were, most of those were independently found, like I found them myself, and then I applied to have them as an independent study so that I can meet those hours. One of them to like, we went to people that I work with in Regions work with a place -4- called Mano y Mano. And so they go to Bolivia, pre-pandemic, and would do a conference yearly with healthcare professionals in really rural remote, high altitude parts of Bolivia. And with interpreters from like Children's Hospital and other hospitals in the metro, they would come along to, and we would teach. We would just teach emergency type healthcare type stuff. And so that was another thing that I did where it was giving a presentation at a conference while someone's interpreting, you know, and then with people that were I don't speak the language, but still having an interpreter present, and being able to just be within that community and offer any any education or information that they wanted or needed, was really a cool experience. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:45 Yeah, it sounds like it. What could have helped you better understand specific skills or the kinds of concepts that we've been talking about in this interview. So what could have helped you understand them better? And which of those concepts were the most challenging to understand? Jenna Nelson 14:07 I think, I hate to say like reading books about it. But I mean, if there are like books that really like give good examples and summarize some of these skills, that would have been interesting, and then doing a project that would require us to utilize those. And it could be hypothetical, or it could be something where we really had to do it in some ways. I think it'd be better if it was hypothetical. Because then people can be more creative with what they might do, and research things and not be so scared with our scholarly project. We had to you know, do implement something or review a topic. It wasn't really like a research project the way that you would think of like, oh, here's intervention and let's do randomized controlled trials. It was different than that, but yeah, I wish we would have had something with civic skills so that we could better articulate it as well. And I do think there are some books that would probably be helpful. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:12 So it sounds like applying those civic skills, even if it's to a hypothetical problem would have helped you kind of? Jenna Nelson 15:18 Yes. Yeah. For me. Yeah, definitely. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:21 Were there any particular concepts or issues kind of in this category that stood out to you is the most challenging to grasp or understand? Jenna Nelson 15:31 Um, I feel like I don't even have necessarily like the words or the, the terms, the proper terms to articulate what, yeah. But it's, it's like the idea of just the democracy and the citizenship and the all of that, I feel like, we don't learn that as nurses, we really don't. And maybe in other graduate programs, they also have a portion of it like we did. I guess I doubt that they did. Actual engaging with community and stuff like that, but having a class devoted to that, more than one, but I mean, realistically, at least one where you're getting like three or four credits even, would be good. -5- Elaine Eschenbacher 16:27 Did any of the kinds of course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice, or your understanding of the profession of nursing? Jenna Nelson 16:38 Yeah, a lot. I don't see my role as like a physician, especially with getting the advanced degree and being a nurse becoming a nurse practitioner. I really do see how nursing is different than medicine. And because it's like an off branch of medicine, that's how nurses even started to do what they do and professionalize it, there's going to be like, we're working within that realm of health. And the biggest realm of health is medicine, with the most research and study and everything, but with nurses being able to become advanced nurse practitioners, they don't necessarily have to 100% function within that realm of medicine. I mean, they have to, of course, use evidence based scientific inquiry all those things to provide, you know, diagnostic tools and treatment plans for people. But their approach doesn't have to be the medical model, it can be more as a member of that community, or even if they don't live in that community that they're working in just the fact that they work there. They're a member of that community. And having more of an even relationship where like the patient and the nurse practitioner, one isn't necessarily more knowledgeable about the patient's health, if anything, the patient might be a little bit because they're the ones that are living in their bodies. And have experienced the life they've experienced. But I think the skills that we've learned made me realize that nursing really is different than medicine. And in little ways, lots of nurses, registered staff, nurses LPNs have these skills, they just don't know it. They don't even know they exist, or there's terms or ways to describe them. Elaine Eschenbacher 18:33 Yeah, knowing the names for them is one thing. And living them out is quite another. Jenna Nelson 18:39 Yeah. Yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 18:40 So you talked about, like the role of a nurse practitioner or any, any other kind of nurse being certainly connected to the medical model, but different than the medical model? Could you say a little bit more about what the difference is? And maybe even if you have a story from your own experience that kind of illustrates that difference? Jenna Nelson 19:02 Yeah, I guess the difference is with the medical model. An example might be like an ER where a physician is saying, okay, you know, what's the patient's chief complaint? They're coming in because they have like knee pain, and it's been bothering them for years. But you know, it's in their medical record. It's been going on for years. And so the physician is trying to figure out, why did they really come in today? And it's going to be associated with a chief complaint. So then they'll do a workup, kind of revolving around this chief complaint of knee pain or something. But their nurse, you know, their staff nurse might come in and talk with them kind of get their history. And that's usually when patients share more information, like I just lost my job or I'm going to get evicted. Or I guess kind of looking at the -6- patient and realizing that whether or not the knee pain is the main reason they came in, and whether or not it's truly worse than it had been. The reason they probably came in is because of like, there's all these, it's multifaceted. There's all these things causing them to need to feel a need to come in. So they're under more stress, maybe they're, you know, they can't pay for their medications. And once you kind of address those things, or even know that they're like existing, then you can overall probably provide the patient with what they really need versus just saying, "Well, I didn't find anything wrong with your knee today. But you can follow up with your primary care provider in the next two weeks, and then go from there." Or I'll refer you to orthopedics. You know what I mean? So it's more just this like whole, like, whole, it is holistic, I guess, in that sense, where you're like, wait, what's going on with this person? Why are they really here? Elaine Eschenbacher 20:48 That's a great example. Thank you. Which experiences at Augsburg standout to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and kind of integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? Jenna Nelson 21:10 Well, I mean, being just being with like, within the community, even the Health Commons, I was kind of talking a lot about the Health Commons over essential, but the one at Cedar Riverside, I mean, that's the community where Augsburg is, too. And so it's literally like their neighbors. And to just see what's been going on within that community, since the beginning of the pandemic, and how things are evolving over there is having that opportunity to work to volunteer work in the Health Commons, really shows me that. But I wish there was more classes, kind of like the politics and healthcare class that we had, where we would, you know, have these experiences and then come back and debrief. We, we did this thing at Central Lutheran, where I don't remember what it was called, but it was for people who have or are currently experiencing homelessness, and they, they meet every,you know, Thursday, and have maybe a 45 minute to hour meeting. And it's just them. And then they have guest speakers that everybody's agreed on to come in? Well, as part of it, our instructor thought it would be a good idea for us to kind of be within that community. And then she, I think, asked them, and they got to vote on if they were going to let the students come to one of these meetings one day. And they agreed. And so then we came and we were going to ask them about different things about their lives, just in general. And the minute like the door is open, and we all walk in, it's like a group of mostly Caucasian females in their 20s and 30s. And walking in and they all like, you could tell the vibe just went down. And so then to go in there feeling it and being like, God, this is awkward for some reason, and I don't know why. And then talking to people that were experiencing homelessness or had experienced homelessness, and like, I had a poor experience with somebody I was talking to, you could tell she was annoyed with me. And she's like, I just want to eat my breakfast. And I was like, Okay, I hear ya, I'll let you eat your breakfast. But after that, talking about what did we learn when we asked these questions, because we kind of did oral history, like interview with them. And then just talking about actually what happened to the whole big picture of us coming in there and like it, I don't think it turned out the way we wanted it to. But it was a learning opportunity for all of us to be like if we're ever going to do something like this, it has to be it would have to be a little different to prevent that shift from occurring. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:41 -7- Reflecting on it the way you did afterwards makes that you see it differently. What I'm hearing you say is you see it differently than if you had just done it and then everyone went their own separate ways. Jenna Nelson 23:54 We talked about like, we all experience the same thing to some degree. And then we all kind of tried to troubleshoot why we have. Then the cool thing would have been to go back and ask the people who were there and say, Why did you notice this? And it's, I mean, I think part of it is to we make a lot of assumptions about people and how they perceive us in general. And that's any human really, but it would be cool to either have those assumptions supported or learn something new about them. Elaine Eschenbacher 24:26 And just to be open to the fact that your assumptions may be wrong. This is an interesting piece of this too. Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't or haven't yet? Jenna Nelson 24:44 Um yeah, I guess like to kind of be able to like lead more. I could manage things I can delegate but and I don't know if you can really teach that well, just with books like in the classroom and writing papers, I think, you know, it would maybe be more things like this. And the thing is like, I think maybe you could say a fifth of our coursework, the first two years of the program are devoted to this stuff, I guess, but I wish there had been more and I wish it was throughout the whole program. The only reason for me it's been throughout the whole program is because I was able to continue doing the Health Commons. Elaine Eschenbacher 25:31 Okay. All right. So because you were working at the Health Commons, you continue to experience those things. Whereas had you gone through the program without that, it would have shifted, and you wouldn't have had these sort of citizen concepts throughout, is that right? Jenna Nelson 25:49 Yeah, yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 25:53 Um, here's a big question for you. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Jenna Nelson 26:06 I guess? That is a big question. I don't know, I feel like when I think about health care, especially health care in the United States, because that's the kind of health care I know the most about. It just made me realize how much nurses do and how much knowledge we have that we don't know we have. And how our role in as a triage nurse and as an ER nurse, just like the role we have in educating the public on something like this. And providing them with comfort, you know, with or just facts, we play a role in having to deal with people who disagree with you know, they have a different story or different narrative about what's happening. They think it's a political government type thing. And so not only are nurses trying to educate, actually put themselves on the frontline, especially in the beginning was scary to go -8- to the ER, I'm like, I don't really know, I like don't touch me, when I get home. When I talk to my kids. I was like, you can't, I have to take a shower, I put my stuff, yeah. But I mean, nurses are on the front line. So to some degree, when we didn't know how bad COVID was, or how bad it could be, we're putting ourselves at risk along with other, you know, janitors, housekeepers, dietary staff. But then having to educate people and then having to treat them even after they're telling us that we're wrong and we're lying and, you know, we're trying to kill them. When they're in respiratory distress, getting them on a ventilator, you know, I just saw all that stuff. And then you see, like the Minnesota Department of Public Health, just getting used to utilizing the website and stuff. A lot of stuff nurses are trying to explain that to the general population who might not have a medical background and might not even have like a sixth grade reading level. And so even for me, at like the Health Partners, as a triage nurse, in our system right now, Health Partners, and I think Park Nicollet. People who are getting the antivirals are not getting them prescribed by their physicians, or ER physicians or urgent care physicians, they're getting prescribed through standing orders by the nurses, the clinic nurses and the triage nurses. And I don't necessarily think it's unsafe, I think the training we received about it is safe. However, it's just interesting that like, a lot of people are saying, I talk to my doctor about this, or I talk to my ER doc about this. And they know nothing. They don't know about how I get these antivirals. They don't know how to do monoclonal antibody treatment. They don't know the mechanism, the side effects, they don't even know what my drugs might interact with those things. And I'm like, That's all nursing. That's insane. Because I think some nurses really think like, I have some skills I can put an IV in. I know what the human body does. But that's it. It's like no, I mean, this pandemic is really showing me like how important nurses are with with this kind of thing. Elaine Eschenbacher 29:13 How did it come to be like that, like with the example you just gave me with antivirals. Jenna Nelson 29:18 I think it has more to do with, it's easier to access a nurse for us Health Partners. Nurse care line is a free service and anyone can utilize it. So and to get, I think, to get that go through the standing order, they have to be an established patient. But I mean that, you know, patients can be seen with Hennepin Health, Allina, Fairview and all the different groups up here. But if they've been seeing, like a HealthPartners provider Park Nicollet in the last two years or something, technically we consider them established. So yeah, but I think it's just because we're easily accessible. There's more of us because it doesn't cost as much money to employ us and there is a huge need for primary care providers and everywhere. Elaine Eschenbacher 30:01 Thanks for that. Do you feel like you are able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Jenna Nelson 30:12 Yeah, I'm really fortunate, I think in terms of where I'm employed in the ER at Regions, they are amazing. We have a huge team there. And we've had a huge turnover within our administrative staff, but they hear us they're constantly looking for feedback. They're being supportive. Same with Health Partners, Care Line, we have educators, that we can email anytime call anytime, during business hours -9- and get information. If we feel like something's not right, we asked that question to as a group. Like, wait, why are we being the ones who are carrying the responsibility of prescribing antivirals to patients? When we don't have a degree in medicine, or you know, advanced degrees to even have a license to prescribe. And so discussing that more with them, they're really realistic, saying, you know, this is this is what we have going on right now. There's, there's literally not enough primary care providers. Elaine Eschenbacher 31:11 It sounds like in your immediate context, you feel like you have a voice and they seek your opinions. What about sort of healthcare more broadly? Do you feel like you have a voice? Jenna Nelson 31:19 Um, I guess I don't know, I don't, I never really think about it. More broadly, because I feel like I only know the bubble I'm in. And I could read about stuff in other states or other parts of the country, but I with pandemic or whatever, maybe it's because I've gotten older, I just, I don't pay attention to news or anything like that anymore. And so I feel like you can only take some of the, you know, any information I could get about health care in other parts of the country. You have to take it with a grain of salt if it's coming from a certain source. Elaine Eschenbacher 32:00 That makes sense. Plus you're working full time, and you're in school, and you've got a life. That's the end of my formal questions, is there anything else that you want to share that I didn't ask? Jenna Nelson 32:14 Um, I guess just like, I think we're pretty fortunate in our program to even get the chunk of education in being like a citizen nurse that we do get, and that Augsburg should be proud of itself for being supporting like things like the Health Commons. And I know there's tons of other things that they do that I don't even know about. But I really wondered, I'm like, do all private colleges do this in their community? It just seems right. I know. It seems crazy that like this is actually unique and different. So it's kind of cool to just find myself in it. Elaine Eschenbacher 32:54 Awesome. All right. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for your insights and stories. - 10 -
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Megan Staffen, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Megan Staffen (2022) 4/4/2022 • 36:48 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, patient, feel, community, citizen, learning, trauma, experiences, nursing, healthcare, nurse practitioner, question, pandemic, doctorate, role, civic, define, understand, family nurse practitioner SPEA...
Show more Oral History with Megan Staffen (2022) 4/4/2022 • 36:48 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, patient, feel, community, citizen, learning, trauma, experiences, nursing, healthcare, nurse practitioner, question, pandemic, doctorate, role, civic, define, understand, family nurse practitioner SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Megan Staffen Elaine Eschenbacher 00:12 Megan, thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work at Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Megan Staffen 00:34 Yes, my name is Megan Staffen. I am a doctorate graduate from Augsburg in my family nurse practitioner degree, currently working at MinuteClinic. And then also a self employed physician as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:48 Great. Before we continue, I just would like to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University where it might be made available to the public. Megan Staffen 01:01 Yes, I consent. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:02 Great, thank you. Um, we're gonna start out with a little bit about your education background. So tell us a little bit about your background with regard to education and what you studied at Augsburg. Megan Staffen 01:14 Sure, so the first couple years started more with like a cultural based approach in healthcare, which I really enjoyed me, I got to travel to Mexico and then Guatemala. So it was a wonderful experience to learn from the different cultures there about their healing modalities, and just their overall culture. So I love the transcultural approach and incorporating that into my everyday healthcare style as well, so that's really been helpful. And then the last two years were more like didactic clinical specific scientific approach to medicine. -1- Elaine Eschenbacher 02:12 And tell me a little bit about your education before you came to Augsburg. Megan Staffen 02:16 I grew up in a small town, um, got my, you know, my GED, so I then progressed up to University of Minnesota Duluth, kind of not knowing what I wanted to do. So I went up there thinking I want to do pharmacy. And then I chose a different path of teaching. And then I did some volunteering, because I'm just like, I still am kind of confused as to what I want to do. And I ended up loving working in the healthcare system. I volunteered at the Children's Hospital up at St. Mary's Duluth. And I chose to do nursing. I graduated with my Spanish degree at Duluth, and then did a accelerated online nursing program through University of Wisconsin Oshkosh. So it was just a one year program, which was great to kind of was able to push me out into the work environmental faster. Elaine Eschenbacher 03:40 So before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse with regard to being engaged in community or being able to create change within institutions? Megan Staffen 03:52 Um, honestly, I applied to Augsburg because I felt that I was missing that component. I had kind of some life changing events that led up to I worked night shift in an ICU, I was burnt out, I was depressed. I had the most mental health problems I've ever had in my life. So I just needed a change. And I felt like I wasn't doing the different making a difference that I wanted to with my career where I was at. And once I got to Augsburg, it really, I've never felt more in the right place at the right time. I think the community approach is something that's not emphasized enough at all in medicine and I have actually taken my practice to help with that. I just took a position that's running out of Lake St. Which has gone through and endured a lot of community issues and trauma, lots of trauma from that area. So I just feel connected, and I live in the area. So I feel like I know kind of what's going on, but not even grazing the surface. And I feel that I didn't have that perspective, per se, prior to starting in my program of Augsburg and I didn't, I feel like that was lacking in my nursing prior to going to Augsburg. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:21 Can you give a little snapshot of what work you're doing connected to Lake Street or in the area? Megan Staffen 05:27 Yeah, so I am working at just the small, just like in and out clinic kind of same day scheduling and, but more so we're trying to, you know, that clinic was actually burned down. And then now we're kind of bringing it up, I guess, you know, as from the ashes of starting all over again, and how do we bring in patients, but not only that, but help heal with trauma that these patients are going through and try to be open and understanding and accommodating in medicine, to the way that their needs are met. So that's been a challenge to you know, we feel like we're, you know, and COVID has obviously been a challenge with getting that, as well. So just trying to accommodate, and we're trying to grow this practice to having more testing capabilities that kind of envelopes what the community needs are and trying to collaborate with Planned Parenthood right next door, how can we collaborate with them and -2- meet the needs that their patients maybe not aren't getting at Planned Parenthood, but maybe we could accommodate at our clinic? So just little things like that starting out small. Elaine Eschenbacher 06:52 You've touched on some of this, but I'm gonna just read the question as it is, anyway, how has your view of the role of a nurse changed since being at Augsburg? Or has it changed? And if so how? Megan Staffen 07:14 So I actually did my doctorate on kind of focusing on the citizen professional, so I don't that has like a little bias to your questions, since I already kind of know. So, I think when I go out into the community, I feel like the role of the nurse is not defined very well, I feel, you know, and I'm in communication with a mentor that I met through a conference who was out in Washington, DC, and actually, she's working up with working with higher levels of like, the American Association of nurse practitioners. And they're trying to actually define the roles and are a little better because it's, especially the nurse practitioner, I feel like patients are just confused, and they don't understand who we are, what we do, or how to differentiate. So that's really been an eye opening like something so basic, is we're not defining ourselves maybe the best. So and that's something I'm still trying to learn, like, how do I define my role? What do I want to be? And it kind of all scatters down from the definition of a nurse, there's so many different levels and spaces that you can kind of fit yourself into in the definition. So it's kind of hard. I definitely think the role that I have has shifted, since being at Augsburg. I feel like I wish I would have, you know, could have would have should have done more of like a public health approach. Looking back on it, maybe you started off with like my master's there and then gone into the doctorate family nurse practitioner, I wouldn't change doing that. I just wish, you know, they definitely shed light on the importance of public health. And then COVID hit and I just realized how awful is lacking and how little respect that we have when really it's like life altering and life changing for humans overall, to have that component in our healthcare system. So I think that's the biggest feature. Elaine Eschenbacher 09:33 So were the concepts of citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in your classes? If so, which ones do you remember? Megan Staffen 09:47 Yeah, I think the citizen nurse stands out the most. I know the civic skills, kind of our duties within the community and kind of the role that we would like to play and I think it was it seven of them are, if I remember correctly that we had to do. The citizen nurse stands out a lot, because that was definitely in my doctorate project was how do you become this person,that's not only, you know, working as like the nurse, but also you're trying to be a part of the community and meet those needs first. And, yeah, I think that was a huge component of my, my project was it definitely dealt with Latina dating violence. So how can I, as a citizen nurse, become a part of like, learning from them to that I feel like adolescents just their voices aren't heard, we just kind of tell them what to do as a provider, whereas a citizen nurse would take what they have to say, maybe pay them to like present or give them incentives to give their perspectives and see where we're lacking in the care that we provide them, because they are the ones that hold the knowledge and their age group. And there's a disconnect in generational differences. So I think playing a role of like getting people's voices heard to change, and that's kind of what we're trying -3- to do at my clinic is how, what are the what's the patient population? Who can we accommodate the best? So yeah, I think citizen nurse definitely stands out the most for me. Elaine Eschenbacher 11:32 You talked about how defining these roles is really difficult if you were pressed to try to define it, like, what would you say? How would you describe it to somebody who doesn't have familiarity with these concepts. Megan Staffen 11:52 For the citizen nurse, I would say that we're looking to seek the knowledge from our community and not to tell the community what to do. That was a huge, huge part of going to Guatemala and Mexico was learning from the community, especially the women, gosh, they're so powerful. So learning from them, and that and not going in and trying to take over, especially with trauma, there's so much trauma, where we are and I think going in and telling people what to do is just not gonna help unite forces and creates some form of equity in healthcare. So that's kind of where I think I would define a citizen nurses is you're seeking out important players of the community that kind of already know what the trauma is, and know the direction and the goals that are trying to be met. And then how do you apply those I think civic skills could maybe always be an ever changing as to what's first and what's most important. So those are a little harder to to define, I guess. Like, I can't really remember to be honest, I'm a bad student. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:09 So you also talked about defining for for patients and others what a nurse practitioner is, how would you describe what a nurse practitioner does? Megan Staffen 13:22 I think the biggest difference would be diagnosing and then prescribing, I mean, that's a huge part of what we do. So, but we also have capability, especially in your with your doctorate is to do research, and I think that's lacking as well, at a community civic skills level. So I think that's kind of the you know, standout differences, I guess, between the going from the nurses, the nurse practitioners diagnosing, prescribing and then or treating and then research. Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions as a result of your education experience at Augsburg? So, yes, I do. I think, coming out of school, like right away, no, I think you're kind of listening and learning right away, but I feel like I was more confident in knowing how to approach people with the right wording, because the way we say things is so important and maybe conducting myself with a little more not compassion, but consideration to the words that come out of my mouth. And just knowing how to say things that make you not only more approachable but more engaged and you know, inspiring to the community. Connection, making that connection. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:19 So thinking back on your educational experiences at Augsburg, can you tell me which experiences or pedagogical practices in the classroom or in your coursework, helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen nurse? -4- Megan Staffen 15:35 I've kind of spoken a couple, especially the traveling to Mexico and Guatemala. But then the other component was Making Room at the Table, probably hands down my favorite class at Augsburg and actually going out into the community and just really diving in and seeing what ...there's so much I didn't even know about my own community that was like, shed a light on multiple resources that I can use now. Like Breaking Free, the cultural center, that's just right down the street from my house those resources for patients. I also now know of like a predominantly Spanish speaking clinic, that's just the Southside Community Center over here, I didn't know about that before. I also got to meet Dennis Donovan, and he just is amazing. And he helped me with my doctorate project so much. And, you know, I actually went and spoke at one of his classes to kind of get input from there, not all adolescents, maybe kind of cheating there, some of them are 18, 19. But at least getting input from invoices from younger generation about my project where it's not so much, just me, and that was me going in and actually being the citizen nurse. So in playing that role, so it's kind of fun to actually not only learn about what the role means in that class, but also kind of developing into one as well and seeing how that looks and plays out. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:35 Nice. Sounds like that also brought in the kind of research aspect of it. Megan Staffen 17:39 Yeah, that helped me figure out what I wanted to do. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:46 So also thinking back on your your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped you better understand the civic skills or the other concepts that we've talked about in this interview? And what concepts or issues were most challenging to understand? I recognize that some of these experiences are four years old for you now. Megan Staffen 18:44 So I partake in a kind of a community trauma healing organization called CHIP, they are through Hennepin County. And I've noticed that they you know, they're at the top of their game with trauma informed care, and I kind of just sit and listen, it's definitely a lot of huge leaders in the community that present and talking and trying to figure out grants funding all that for different areas of need in Minneapolis specifically. So I've definitely gained a better understanding through doing that. And I think that's because they're bringing in these leaders from these small little places that you would never know about. And for example, Raices Sagradas, they have this woman and she's in charge of it and she was trying to get a grant for them it and I just think hearing them speak and represent these populations was really definitely gave you a better understanding what civic skills means to to them and where their passions and everything lie. Which I know we did that, you know, we went out and did that with like Breaking Free and learned from people and their experiences which but I think almost just getting into like more of like the leadership. I think Katie had brought in a leader, I can't remember her name now, someone higher up in the like health of Minneapolis, but more of that would help kind of understand and more. But she did a good job at honestly, I think it really immersed us but the immersion aspect was the best I guess if there could be more immersion, I know COVID is kind of limiting for that. But -5- more immersion is what would really help and more ideas as to what the different levels of civic skills are and where maybe the community stands, and what's the importance of them and which one's more important right now. Because sometimes it's hard to do all of them and kind of like a prioritization of the civic skills or something like that to kind of better understand and your community might be helpful. Honestly, yes, it was four years ago, I can't really remember which concepts or skills are most challenging. Elaine Eschenbacher 21:25 It's interesting, though, it sounds like in some of your courses, you got a taste of these things. And you've continued your own learning in your own context. Megan Staffen 21:33 Yeah, it definitely has motivated me to keep wanting to keep up to date. Elaine Eschenbacher 21:43 Have any of the course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice or understanding of the profession of nursing? And are they applicable to your current practice? Do you use them and if you have a story to illustrate that we'd love to hear the story. Megan Staffen 22:18 I do have a story from a patient actually. You know, you kind of get so wound up in like, Oh, we got to test we got to treat, we got to do this. And then you're like, okay, you can leave and but I noticed the context of how my patient was speaking, and I was running behind. So first I kind of, you know, went through just everything. And I noticed that the patient was using, like, saying, they them about their partner. And so finally, I just, like, stopped. And I was like, So what pronouns do you use, and they got elated as to like me actually asking, and then I sat down with this patient, and I showed them that epic has a whole tool now where we can, like, I can put it documented in there with their permission, if they would like me to know and warn, not warn, but tell other providers that this patient prefers that they them pronouns, and recognizes as non-binary. And I mean, this patient was just absolutely, they were elated that I, you know, did that and that I felt a big connection. And that's when you feel like you really made a difference. And you feel, I feel like that's when you really feel like you're the citizen nurse because you're actually letting this patient guide their care. And, of course, they were excited that I gave them treatment for feeling bad, too. But I feel the biggest component that affected the patient was me, asking them and then turning the computer and let them guide their own care and click what they wanted to click and see that I'm not just, you know, taking over their health records and not letting them have any say as to who they are and how they want their health care played out. Elaine Eschenbacher 24:12 So they felt seen and you gave them the opportunity to have agency. it sounds like. Megan Staffen 24:18 Yes, correct. Elaine Eschenbacher 24:19 -6- So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? Megan Staffen 24:54 I listed some but I'll just play off of my patient experience, and I'll just keep referring back to Making Room at the Table. It's just that the community, like citizen nurse, civic skills, are just such a huge, broad aspect of healthcare, it could almost be two parts to that course. Maybe more of like the community engagement, but then also like, like, the trauma informed care is such a huge thing right now that's lacking. But anyways, so my experiences I think, were that we had an LGBTQ T representative came in, especially for at Augsburg and gave us resources, and then also talked about different stories about you know, why you know, pronouns matter, and that you can't, it's not something to just brush off and think that it's not important in health care, let alone in life. So it just, it was nice to be educated on it. And I feel that even when I had my patient, I had to ask her and tell her or sorry, them. That I was, I'm still learning. And I said, if you wouldn't mind explaining non-binary, I just want to have some transparency. And they were, like, thrilled that I at least just am trying to learn. And I think just having that representative come in and tell us that it was it's okay to ask questions. Sometimes you just got to hear that. And I don't know why. But, you know, as a provider, we're always being told to, you know, you have to tell them what, you know, that's kind of like this regimented way of, we just have to do this, this and this, and then out the door, whereas you kind of have to have your own thoughts. And you can always ask questions, you know, we don't know everything. And I feel like that's a big part of being a citizen nurse, too, is being vulnerable and asking questions. So I think that was a really good presentation to have in our class as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:22 It kind of brings up the idea of expertise. And who is the expert? Megan Staffen 27:26 Exactly, yes. Yeah, I'm definitely not the expert in in a lot of things, even medicine, you're constantly learning so yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:36 And yet, the traditional training sets you up to be the expert. Megan Staffen 27:42 Yeah, exactly. Or at least that's the mentality they want you to have, I guess, I don't know. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:52 Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't? Megan Staffen 28:09 I guess this doesn't really have anything to citizen professional, but I feel like the didactic medical courses could have been a little better. Especially like pathophysiology. And this could even be a thing where it's more of a community trying to not be the experts but a collaborative approach with like the PA program or just trying to get more involvement from different members of medicine. I don't know if -7- we can even collaborate like with pharmacists, I just feel like that was lacking. And, and that's I'm not just saying like I'm trying to say it and more of a citizen professional way that medicine we're all like supposed to be our experts here, but why can't we be our experts with each other and learn and have like, Making Room at the Table for different healthcare professionals. I feel like we're all so niche and even feel that even in the clinics where our nurses in this room and nurse practitioners are over here, or nurses sit on this side and nurse practitioners and doctors sit over here and pharmacists are over there and we just have our own little spots and I feel like maybe bringing the citizen professional into that kind of light and to that portion of my didactic maybe would have been a little more helpful. Elaine Eschenbacher 29:31 So here's a big question. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Megan Staffen 29:54 A lot of ways. That's a heavy question, really heavy question. Um, I'll give you an example, the day that I knew that this just wasn't going well. I was in the urgent care setting. And I had a patient who started going downhill. And then all of a sudden we're coding this patient, there's not enough help. It's just me and a nurse. Then the paramedics, and I'm doing compressions, it's like you've seen in the movie, they're wheeling her out into the ambulance. I mean, it was just a pretty traumatic event. And I rode in the ambulance with the patient, because they didn't have enough help you pull up to the ambulance bay, there's like seven ambulances all pulling up at the same time. So I can see why they don't have enough help. I mean, it just, and then they're still coming around saying that you need to see more patients, you need to do more, we need to do this. We know we're changing EPIC, we're changing this. And it's, it's really daunting. And I did feel supported afterwards, we did get to do like a debriefing. But I feel like there's not enough support. That's such a traumatic thing. And then meanwhile, that same week, George Floyd was murdered, so I had to leave town because mentally and physically, I could not handle it. I don't even know how I made it through that week. Um, but we're expected to them are just expected to keep going. And I think COVID shed light on that. But maybe not enough. Because now that COVID was getting a little better. Now we're, they're just like, okay now, keep going. Now we got to see the patients again. And it's just like, I feel like they're thinking like, some days, I'm like, oh, did COVID even ever happen, we just lost millions of people. But yet, we're just expected to just keep going. It's just really, it's a lot to process. And that's only just grazing the surface. I think we're short staffed, I think people are leaving the program, the program, the nursing career. It's definitely created problems. Nurses are kind of against each other in some ways, where there's the travel nurses who are making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and then actually more than I'm making as a nurse practitioner. And then there's the nurses who have been loyal and true through the whole pandemic, and they're making 1000s less, and I just, it's so messed up. I don't know how to fix this issue. But I just feel like there's this high expectation and not enough help or support for nursing. The pandemic definitely shed light on that, that we just kind of are very much taken advantage of in a lot of ways. And just expected, which yes, it's my job to do that. I know, I had a friend who kind of said that, he said, Well, isn't that what you signed up for? And I said, Did I sign up to be in a pandemic? Did I sign up to be short staffed? I don't think so, when I went into this career. So yeah, it's that's a heavy question. But I think it's definitely changed my view that I want to work more with the community to shed light on what we're trying to do try to have transparency and who I am and what my expectations are, as well as meeting -8- them at some sort of level with the patient, but I think that's going to take a long time to heal and to mend from this. Elaine Eschenbacher 33:44 Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Megan Staffen 33:59 Sometimes yes. I think where I work, currently, it's very women led and they've definitely made a lot of changes listening to their providers. They definitely give you a significant amount of time off for what after having a baby more than more than other companies do. But it's sad that it has to be women led to make those changes. So when I bring up ideas to my manager, they do listen, and they do consider it even if it's just something small. And they do respond really, pretty diligently and I'm not waiting weeks for a response. So I do feel heard, even if I'm not, you know, having success with it moving up the ladder by any means. But yeah, I think for the most part where I'm at currently, I do feel heard and they want to, they want to make this clinic thrive just as much as we do. And they want to try to, you know, they're even recommending we, you know, collaborate with Planned Parenthood, they're trying to figure out ways to help us as well. So I do feel like we're supported. But there's just so much on, as I said before, so much on their plates that they have to manage that. Sometimes I feel like the like, civic skills are kind of just at the bottom of their list, when really, that's such a huge starting point. And so that's kind of a hard challenges. We're all just kind of got all these things that we're worried about trying to do. So it's hard to get some stuff accomplished for that reasoning. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:42 Yeah, well, as you were describing, when I asked the pandemic question, it's really complex. And there's a lot of competing priorities and tensions. Megan Staffen 35:54 Exactly. Yeah. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:57 Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask? Megan Staffen 36:01 I don't think so. No, I really liked all these questions. And I love the citizen professional, I think it's something that needs to be educated everywhere. -9-
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Michelle Palmborg, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Michelle Palmborg 4/11/2022 • 41:08 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, feel, nursing, community, disparities, learning, concepts, role, gave, patient, experience, Maxfield, years, hospital, pandemic, kids, question, family nurse practitioner, wanted SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenba...
Show more Oral History with Michelle Palmborg 4/11/2022 • 41:08 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, feel, nursing, community, disparities, learning, concepts, role, gave, patient, experience, Maxfield, years, hospital, pandemic, kids, question, family nurse practitioner, wanted SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Michelle Palmborg Elaine Eschenbacher 00:06 Thank you, Michelle, for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work at Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Michelle Palmborg 00:30 Yeah. Hi, my name is Michelle Palmborg. I'm a registered nurse by trade. And I am an Assistant Professor of Nursing at Metropolitan State University. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:43 Great. And before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and having that interview, a recording of that interview stored at Augsburg University, which could be made available to the public. Michelle Palmborg 00:56 That's fine. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:57 Okay, great. All right. To start out, can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied at Augsburg? Michelle Palmborg 01:08 Yeah, so I kind of have gone about my higher education in a very long, drawn-out way. I started straight from high school going into an ADN (Associate Degree in Nursing), that is an associate degree in nursing. And I went to St. Catherine University for that at their Minneapolis College. After obtaining my ADN, I went on for my RN to BSN. So an undergraduate completion degree, actually here at Metro State. And then from there, I went on to get my MAN, so a Master's in Arts of Nursing at Augsburg, and then a DNP degree, so a doctorate in nursing practice degree. And I completed thaton May 3 of 2019. -1- Elaine Eschenbacher 02:13 Before you came to Augsburg, so you were already a nurse, how did you view yourself as a nurse with regard to being engaged in community or creating change in institutions. Michelle Palmborg 02:27 So most of my nursing career was at St. Joseph's Hospital, which is downtown St. Paul. Recently, they shut the doors to bedside nursing care. And so I'm currently at the U of M. But I felt like my most of my time at St. Joe's also was in the emergency department. And our emergency department is directly across the street from Higher Ground and the Dorothy Day Center downtown. And so I really felt as though being in the ER, you really got to see the community, work with the community, collaborate with the community, because not everybody gets admitted into the hospital. So I would say the majority of the patients that we saw in the emergency department actually were not admitted into the hospital. And previous to being in the ER, I worked in what we call the float pool. So I floated all over the hospital. I was only seeing those select few patients that met the requirements for admission. And so, again, going back to my work in the emergency department, I really felt like I actually got to collaborate and work with the community and have a better grasp on the different disparities that were going on in that downtown St. Paul community, as well as just kind of the makeup of the community as well. I think that answered your question. Elaine Eschenbacher 04:11 Yeah. Thanks. Since studying at Augsburg, has your view of the role of a nurse changed? And if so, how? Michelle Palmborg 04:26 Yeah, I would definitely say so. So prior to going to Augsburg, you know, I always wanted to be a nurse. I wanted to be a nurse in high school. I also wanted to be a cosmetologist. And so I explored that I didn't mention that but I actually explored that at Aveda before going into nursing. Because I don't know I think I had an impostor syndrome about becoming a nurse. But I really looked at nursing prior to Augsburg and I still have some of this belief that nursing is truly a calling, you know, you're working hands-on with the community, and there's a lot of healing involved. And I still think that's very true. But I think going to Augsburg, really opened my eyes specifically on this concept of the citizen nurse. And just the capacity and the power that nurses have when it comes to public policy. And getting involved and actually being involved in creating change, if you will. Where prior to Augsburg, I kind of looked at my role as okay, this is what I'm doing when I clock into when I clock out, and then I take that hat off and go home. And I just do my hospital work, I was really focused on, you know, the tasks that were assigned to me at the bedside, versus really kind of looking at the broader scope of how nurses really can get involved in change, if that makes sense. Elaine Eschenbacher 06:04 Yeah, I'm curious, what made you want to be a nurse? Michelle Palmborg 06:08 -2- Ah, it's personal. And some I won't go into, you know, extreme detail. But I dealt with a mother who was sick for most of my life. And the type of disease, if you will, as she was dealing with, I think, is one that has a lot of negativity attached to it. And so for myself, I really wanted to go into the role of becoming a nurse to have a different perspective of that community, as well as just be a part of taking care and healing. It's something that I was passionate about, you know, taking care of my mother growing up, as well as my family was very involved when I was in elementary, middle school, high school and giving back to the community. And we would spend our Christmases every year downtown Minneapolis, volunteering with Harbor Lights, Salvation Army. And I just remember growing up, it was something we always did with our cousins, and it just brought all of us so much joy to give back to the community. And so it's just it's always been something like, okay, how can I give back? I really enjoy taking care of people, what type of career can I do that, and I have some doctors in my family, I have an uncle who's an orthopedic surgeon and another uncle who's a radiologist. And growing up, I would see how busy they are and were never really around, always in the hospital. So I knew that I didn't want to become a physician, but I knew I wanted to be involved in medicine. And so what really sealed the deal for me, outside of the two things I had already explained with my mom, and then our family involvement in the community was I was a teen mom, myself, and I had a midwife with my oldest daughter, and her name was Michelle as well. And she was so kind and so patient. And so just, she had such a loving presence. And I never felt like she judged me for being a teen mom. And she knew that I wanted to become a nurse. And she would just say the kindness things to motivate me to keep me on track to let me know that even though you're having a child at such a young age, this doesn't have to be a negative thing. And so I would say she really kind of, you know, gave me that push that, yes, I can do this, and I can write my own story. So I would say all three of those things are really what brought me to applying to the nursing program at St. Kate's. Elaine Eschenbacher 09:25 Awesome. Thank you. You kind of started to allude to this next question in one of your previous answers, but thinking back on your courses at Augsburg, were the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills discussed in your classes, and if so, which ones do you remember? Michelle Palmborg 09:47 Absolutely. feel like that was just a common thread throughout the entire program. Specific course numbers, now that I've been in higher ed, I can't remember the specific courses. I will say that I taught as an adjunct for some years at Augsburg for the 541 which is the Politics in Healthcare. So that concept is definitely woven. Throughout that course. I did work with Dennis Donovan at Maxfield Elementary and that really that experience I feel like really gave me, it just really opened my eyes to how much bigger nursing is outside of hospital bedside nursing, and how we can really use our power and our agency to get involved in so many different areas. And I forget what specific class that was that I took where I was working with him. But just that experience of working with the kids at Maxfield Elementary from the lens of being a registered nurse was very profound. Elaine Eschenbacher 11:22 Can you tell me about which experiences you had in the classroom or in your coursework that really helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen professional or citizen nurse and a little bit more -3- on how. So if you wanted to talk about the your experience at Maxfield that would be great. Or maybe there's other experiences that really kind of brought it home for you? Michelle Palmborg 11:43 Yeah, I thought, you know, Maxfield was a big one. So that's a local elementary school here in the Twin Cities that, I don't know what the statistics are now, but if I remember correctly, five years ago, like 99% of the children who went to that school were on free or reduced lunch. Due to a lack of funding, there wasn't a ton of after school activities. These kids were, you know, a lot of them coming from the homeless shelter, dealing with you know, housing insecurity, all of that. And it really opened my eyes as to the role that a school nurse can play. When it comes to I mean, obviously, you know, treating childhood diseases like type one diabetes, what have you, but outside of that, just kind of the overlap nursing plays with social work, and how, you know, just the beauty of listening to these kids, meeting them where they're at, and really kind of taking, you know, one of the concepts that I really love have the citizen nurses de-emphasizing the expert role. And I feel like we've really got to do that at Maxfield Elementary because, you know, you could come in as a nurse and be like, what are we doing, these kids aren't eating, there's too many kids in the classroom, no one's paying attention. You're not going to get anywhere with that mentality. And I feel like learning about the different concepts of the citizen nurse model and applying that to my experience at Maxfield really allowed myself to be able to get on the kids level. And just, you know, I had my own personal experience that may have been similar to some of the kids who you know, attended Maxfield Elementary, but just really kind of seeing how, you know, all of the social determinants outside of being a student really impacted their experience at school and how not having breakfast in the morning, you know, how can you pay attention to your math? How can you pay attention to what your teacher's saying, just the level of anxiety and overwhelm and just by having that presence, of having, you know, us as students there to kind of break up the kids and work in smaller groups with them on something that was important to them. So the projects were giving these kids agency to choose something in their community that they really wanted to see change. And I feel like and I have teenagers, myself, that a lot of schools don't do that. A lot of schools are like, this is what you need to do. If you don't do what I say you need to do, you're in trouble. And I feel like this experience we were really giving the agency to the kids and you can see these kids just light up and get so excited because it was something that they wanted to do, a change that they want wanted to see that would not only impact them, but their community. And it was it was a really great experience. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:14 Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your educational experience at Augsburg? Michelle Palmborg 15:23 Absolutely, I feel like my educational experience at Augsburg really opened my eyes on things that I had experienced as a multiracial woman, but I didn't necessarily have the words for it, because I was just, you know, if you've been racialized in America, your whole life, it's just something you're used to. And I feel like Augsburg really gave me the tools to look deeper, do the root cause analysis have a better understanding of the systemic issues that we have in society, systemic racism, institutional racism, to better understand, you know, bias, unconscious bias, and I feel like that has really opened up -4- the doors for myself, in the sense of being able to, you know, at the bedside at the U of M, or here, you know, in my role as an assistant professor to really be able to understand the different systems, how they work together, how they perpetuate, you know, negative or positive outcomes in the community. But really, I feel like, I have the tools to try and work to dismantle some of these systems. Obviously, I can't by myself, it takes a collective, but I really feel like Augsburg gave me the toolkit that I need to have the lens on just how a lot of these systems work, because I think, as nurses, you can either be a doer, and you're just very task oriented, which is kind of what I was explaining, prior to my experience at Augsburg and that was my lens of being a nurse and I see so many nurses who they're like this, you know, I come here from seven to three, and then I go home, and then I take my Augsburg experience, and it's like, okay, so why is this patient here for the fifth time this month? How can we get to the root cause of you know, what's going on here versus having an attitude like, "Oh, they're back again." So just little things where I've seen it, impact my outlook, my understanding, awareness, I really feel like Augsburg gave me those tools. And you know, I spoke about Maxfield, but we also went to Sylvan Lake and were a part of a wonderful ceremony of renaming this really sacred peak and renaming it so that it was back to the original Lakota name versus, you know, what it had been named by colonizers, if you will. And there are many experiences going out to the Amish community, and it was something I was so terrified to do. Because I don't look like anybody in the Amish community. But it really opened my eyes to the level of prejudice that that community deals with. And I don't know, I'm kind of rambling here, but I just really feel like Augsburg gave me the tools to kind of look deeper, if you will, at systems, institutions, just kind of how politics works. Elaine Eschenbacher 19:09 So thinking back on your education at Augsburg, what could have helped you better understand the civic skills and the concepts we've highlighted in this interview, and which concepts or issues were most challenging to grasp? Michelle Palmborg 19:24 So this is something that I've thought about actually a lot, especially in my role as an assistant professor, and right now I'm only teaching in our doctoral programs here at Metro. And Metro has a very different approach in their doctoral programs, and I'm not going to say one is better than the other. But one thing that I definitely think, and this was feedback that was given by multiple students of my graduating class, is I think, specifically in nursing on the leadership track, I think there would have been benefit to having more in depth courses on leadership, courses on research. Because a lot of the things that I'm doing in my role right now I see my peers come in from, you know, the UofM, maybe they graduated from here. And they come in knowing how to create a Gantt chart, they come in knowing how to write a grant proposal, how to, you know, analyze data, or what have you things that, you know, maybe aren't the funnest to do, but they're definitely a part of your role as a professor. And I think we could have definitely learned more about that in a leadership program. Yeah, so more courses around leadership. I don't want to say business management, but, um, I think because you know, that there can be some overlap with that when you say leadership, but also research. I understand, you know, Augsburg. It's not an R1 school, like the UofM. However, you know, when you're graduating nurse practitioners, and you're graduating people with doctors in leadership, they should know how to do something as simple as write a grant proposal or how to analyze research. And that was not a skill that was taught, unfortunately, at Augsburg. -5- Elaine Eschenbacher 21:45 Yeah, I mean, the way I'm hearing it, tell me if this is right, is kind of like those are some of the implementation tools for putting these concepts into practice. Michelle Palmborg 21:53 Exactly. So there was a definitely a gap, I think there. Elaine Eschenbacher 22:01 Thinking about the conceptual side, the civic skills, civic engagement, citizen nurse, were there any of those particular concepts that were difficult to grasp or didn't quite land for you? Michelle Palmborg 22:13 No. Okay. I would say if anything, it just felt right. It felt like okay, we should have learned this and undergraduate nursing. How are we? Because so many nurses don't go on to get graduate degrees, they stop at the undergraduate level, they just wanted to become a nurse. And why are we waiting? And that was one thing I felt a lot at Augsburg is, why am I just now learning about this? Why are we not teaching this to our undergraduate students? Who are really the ones who are going out here and providing hands on care to the community? So no, it felt right. It felt awesome to learn. I just I definitely had that overwhelming feeling, especially in my master's program at Augsburg of why am I just not learning this? Why my just now learning about institutionalized racism? When it's embedded in every framework of medicine, I should have learned that in my undergraduate degree. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:22 Did any of these course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing? Michelle Palmborg 23:32 Absolutely. So interestingly, I originally after my master's, was accepted to the DNP FNP program, my plan was to become a family nurse practitioner. I completed a year that program almost at a 4.0, I was to the point where I was partnered with another nurse practitioner to do my year of practicum. And then I'd be done. I was miserable in that program. And I didn't know why I cried every day. And then I was talking to a really close friend of mine who was like, I just need you to be intentional and meditate and pray about this. And I realized that I actually did not want to become a family nurse practitioner. I really, because I, no shade or disrespect to you know, providers, but I did not see that being the way I wanted to be a part of change. And I had already had my feet wet in education, teaching as an adjunct. And it really pushed me into going to the other track the leadership track in the DNP program to going in education. And I'm unbelievably thankful for making that choice. But I don't think I would have gotten there had it not been for some of these concepts that we were learning and actually having a really deep, long conversation with Dr. Katie Clark on one of our practicums about, you know, just which career path and she was like, I think you should switch tracks and go into leadership track. And it's like when you're so involved in a pre-licensure program hearing that sounds like your, it seems like defeat. I'm giving up, what am I doing? And I think I realized that for myself, it was more ego, I wanted that white coat to say, look, I made it I came out of all of this adversity, and look, I have my white coat, and -6- then doing some self reflection. Especially on what we were learning at the time, I realized, you know, the way that I want to be a part of change is actually in education. So I'm very thankful for, you know, the concepts of the citizen nurse. And a lot of the frameworks that were taught in the program because it really opened my eyes. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:04 Yeah. Wow. Sounds like like vocational reckoning. Michelle Palmborg 26:10 I call it my midlife crisis. And I was like 20 years old at the time. It felt like a crisis because you know, you put your all into a pre-licensure program. I'm not saying you don't in a non-pre-licensure program but you're studying eight hours a day, you're living in your books. And so it did kind of feel like a defeat and then I just went with what felt right and I'm so thankful. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:47 Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning. Michelle Palmborg 27:00 Definitely my experience with Dennis Donovan at Maxfield. I really enjoyed my experience with the Amish community, which was of course that Dr. Cheryl Luening taught I don't remember the actual course name. Um, and then the politics and health care course really was powerful because I didn't realize how much power nurses have when it comes to legislation and policy. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:43 Based on what you've told me about Christmases when you were little, it sounds like you're an engaged, involved in community kind of person that sounds like it's part of who you are. It also sounds like self reflection is kind of a part of your practice. And it sounds like your program at Augsburg fit well with those. I'm going off script now, this is my own question. So what do you attribute to Augsburg and what is is you and maybe it doesn't help to distinguish those, but I'm just curious if you have a thought on that. Michelle Palmborg 28:21 I would attribute Augsburg to, I feel like I've always been a self reflective person. I grew up, I had to grow up really early, just given some of my life experiences. But I didn't have the tools on how to put my thoughts into action or what my thoughts meant, or how to put my passions into action. I always kind of had this overwhelming feeling as a child of like, I want to save the world, but how do I do it? And I kinda would get down, not like depressed or anything but you know, after my experiences around Christmas with family giving back at Harbor Lights, and I would find myself just really sad. Why is this happening? Why is the world like this? How could this be? How can kids actually go to bed hungry at night? And I feel like Augsburg gave me the tools to like better understand again, these systems, how they work. At what level can I get involved? What is meaningful? So I feel like Augsburg really just kind of gave me the tools to put like, all of my childhood wants and thoughts into actual action, if that makes sense. Because I feel like prior to Augsburg I had this thought of okay, well, I'm a nurse so I'm giving back and -7- although I think there's a lot of truth to that, a lot of truth to that. There was still something missing. It was like when I would clock out of work Okay, now what now my like now what what am I doing now for the community? And so then I would constantly while you work in the ER, you're giving a ton. And I'm not saying that nurses who do that are not, they are giving a ton. But for myself, it just didn't feel like enough. And so I feel like Augsburg really gave me the tools to put those feelings of this isn't enough what's next, into action? Elaine Eschenbacher 30:45 So here's a big question. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Michelle Palmborg 30:54 Oh, I think I am an outlier here. My response may ruffle feathers. It has not changed a ton. I feel like as a nurse, we've always cared for really sick people. I've always felt like it's my duty to care for sick people, no matter what the disease virus, bacteria, whatever it is. I feel like the pandemic has really shed light to the disparities between, I shouldn't say disparities, I feel like the pandemic has really shed light to the discrepancies between nurses and administration. When it comes to short staffing patient ratios just because the system has been so overwhelmed. But my role as a nurse, I don't feel like has changed. I have to wear more PPE with certain situations. But I just really feel like we've always cared for sick people. I think the pandemic has different definitely highlighted the disparities in and around health care specifically when it comes to our historically marginalized communities. When it comes to trust, health literacy, what have you. But when I think about my role as a nurse, when I go into the hospital outside of having to wear more equipment, I'm still caring for a patient, I'm still looking at them, you know, through a holistic lens, you know, I still have my tasks, I still have to abide by physician orders. And I think part of the reason why I feel like it hasn't changed a lot is my experience in the emergency department. When you work in the emergency department specifically when you work at an ER like I did for so many years where you walk into work, and you are right outside of the largest homeless shelter in the State of Minnesota. And you see, you know, the disparities right in front of your face every single time and I work 12 hour shifts and that ER. I feel like the disparities, they've always been there. And so for me, it hasn't really exaggerated those disparities because I've seen them for years, but I think for the general population, and you know, data collectors, if you will, they're like, oh, this disparities have been so much greater for historically marginalized communities. And it's like, they've always been this way. And this goes back, you know, four hundred years ago. So, I don't know. I personally can't. It's been challenging as a nurse because I feel like the pandemic has also brought out a lot of misinformation. And like no other. I never remember prior to the pandemic, people, you know, questioning what's inside of a vaccine or thinking that you know, it's all a hoax or, you know, those type of, in my opinion, crazy thoughts. You know, you had misinformation around, "Oh, does the flu vaccine caused autism" or the MMR and, you know, I feel like that was like a small population and it was always there, but I just feel like the pandemic has brought about like, all of a sudden, everybody has a science degree, I guess. And everybody has an opinion on science. So that's been wild. And that's been really actually noxious as a nurse, and not just when I clock in just everywhere, you know. But my actual job as a nurse, I don't know if I can say I just feel like, yeah, I don't know. I can't say that the disparities that I've seen specifically amongst marginalized communities are worse with COVID than they are with pain management. Or with they are with our, you know, maltreatment with patients who have sickle cell, or who don't speak English, or, you know. I can't go to bed and sleep at night -8- saying it's worse, I think we still do a horrible job with treating patients for pain, who are black or Latino, or Native American. We still have horrific outcomes when it comes to maternal and infant mortality rates amongst black, Latino and indigenous populations. You know, did COVID exaggerate that? I don't know. It's always been there. That's my opinion about that. Elaine Eschenbacher 36:22 Thank you. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Michelle Palmborg 36:33 Hmm. So that's a hard question. I feel like as a bedside nurse, no, I feel like administration really has a hold on that. And a lot of administrators are not physicians or nurses, they don't actually have the medical background. They have the business background, but not the medical background. So as far as you know, decision making, and I work at the U of M. So it's a very, it's a teaching hospital. I definitely feel like I have a voice but decision making, I would say that's definitely more administration. Higher ed, I definitely feel like I have a voice here at Metro. But it's, you know, I think anybody who works in higher ed knows that changes really slow. Painfully slow. So I do feel like I have a voice. I do feel like, my voice is, you know, heard and respected and valued here at Metro State. I can't say felt that way at other places that I've worked. I definitely felt that way as an adjunct at Augsburg, so that was great. But I think that's the big overarching issue with health care. Is that nurses, physicians, providers, what have you, we aren't often at that decision making table. Health care is dictated by health insurance, income, it's a class system. And so I think that is the big issue. It's, you know, pharmaceutical companies. So I can't say I feel like I have a voice at that decision making table because it's so much bigger than that. Elaine Eschenbacher 38:46 That's the end of my prepared questions. Is there anything else you'd like to share that I didn't ask? Michelle Palmborg 38:51 No, you know, I just, I am forever grateful for my experience at Augsburg. I think Augsburg is very special. It's very near and dear to my heart. I learned so much. I went through a lot of transition when I was at that university. I felt very valued. I loved my professors. They're so wonderful. I love the experience. I love coming on to campus and feeling like this really is a campus for the people. This really is a campus where the folks who go here look like the rest of the community. It didn't feel like this elite space where only certain people get in it just felt like this is a community campus. I have really nothing negative ever to say about Augsburg. It was just so beautiful and my family they all came up here We're from the San Francisco Bay Area. And my family, they all came up here for my graduation. And I think a lot of people who don't know Minnesota think it's just a state full of, you know, cows and farms, at least my family does. And so I just remember my family saying over and over again. "I feel like this is a graduation ceremony in Oakland." Like it is so diverse, you know, the speakers, the dances, the singing the, it just, it's a beautiful place. It's a beautiful campus. And I feel like it's an institution that really sticks to their mission, vision and values and they really walk the walk with the community, or however you say that. It was great. -9-
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with MyKenzie Bender, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with MyKenzie Bender (2022) 3/23/2022 • 32:25 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, nursing, people, patients, concepts, learning, Namibia, experiences, feel, advocating, homes, little bit, community, DNP, change, talked, important, staffing ratios, terms SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbach...
Show more Oral History with MyKenzie Bender (2022) 3/23/2022 • 32:25 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nurse, nursing, people, patients, concepts, learning, Namibia, experiences, feel, advocating, homes, little bit, community, DNP, change, talked, important, staffing ratios, terms SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Mykenzie Elaine Eschenbacher 00:08 Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University in the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher, and I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work and Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Mykenzie 00:28 Yes, my name is Mykenzie Bender. I'm a DNP FNP students at Augsburg. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:36 Before we get started, I just want to confirm that you do consent to be interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University where it could be made available tothe public. Mykenzie 00:47 Yes, I consent. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:48 Great, thank you. We'll start out hopefully kind of easy. Tell me a little bit about your education background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg. Mykenzie 00:58 Sure. Prior to Augsburg, I went to community college and attended even while I was in high school still, and then I went to another university to finish off my BSN. And currently, I'm at Augsburg in my third year of the DNP FNP program. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:14 Great. Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged with community? -1- Mykenzie 01:26 Before I came to Augsburg, I worked a lot in homecare nursing. So I feel like that has a lot to do with the community. You're in people's homes working in within different places in the community because you take your patients out. So making sure that you put on a good presence in the community and make sure you're a good example as a nurse, I guess. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:54 And then similar question, how did you view before coming to Augsburg? How did you view yourself in relationship to being able to create change within an institution or even within healthcare? Mykenzie 02:05 Sure, um, prior to coming to Augsburg, my previous universities and actually my previous jobs were big into lobbying at the Capitol. So I have done a few days on the Hill for different things related to the nursing profession. And so I do have a little bit experience with that. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:37 Since being at Augsburg, has it has your view of being a nurse changed? And if so, how? Mykenzie 03:06 I would say probably incorporating holistic practice into, you know, my everyday nursing life has kind of changed. I think we've learned a lot of a lot about different techniques and things that we can include. And I guess, in my previous education, I didn't have that. And I think incorporating that into the nurse, my nursing care now just makes me a better nurse in general and can reach different types of patients. Elaine Eschenbacher 03:37 Could you describe a little bit maybe an example or just how you think about incorporating holistic practice into your nursing? Mykenzie 03:45 Sure, I suppose if I have a really anxious patient, I might recommend to them, like some guided imagery, I could probably lead that if they were, like open to that. I think as a future nurse practitioner, you know, referring to things like acupuncture, chiropractic, massage therapy, that might not have been in my wheelhouse prior to coming to Augsburg, but now I think I feel more comfortable advocating for those kinds of things. Elaine Eschenbacher 04:23 So thinking back on your time at Augsburg, I'm going to ask you about a few different concepts and whether you remember them being discussed in your in your classes, and if so, which ones? So citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills, any of those ring a bell in terms of memories of specific classes? Mykenzie 04:45 -2- I would say yes, I do remember those from my earlier classes. Now that I'm more into the clinical rotations and such, we don't talk about that as much, but I do remember those terms. From earlier classes. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:02 What stands out to you in terms of what you remember from those classes about those terms? Mykenzie 05:10 I feel like a lot of them were about making change within the community or within nursing. I don't really know. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:20 That's okay. This isn't a test. We're just trying to assess what people take in and what they don't. So any answer is useful. Are there any specific experiences or pedagogical practices that you had in the classroom that helped you gain an understanding of the role of a citizen professional or of a citizen nurse? So I'm asking you to go back a couple years, and I know you've got a full life. Mykenzie 05:56 I'm trying to think what we did. I mean, some of the practicum experiences we had. I went to Namibia. And so we talked a lot about different aspects of nursing. And I would say, civic engagement, while we were there. Oh, my gosh, it's so hard to remember. I'm trying to think of other practicums I had. Elaine Eschenbacher 06:29 Well, let's stick with Namibia for a minute. Maybe. Can you think of an example or a story from your experience in Namibia that illustrates that a little bit? Mykenzie 06:55 So I remember, in Namibia, we had a lot of different speakers come and talk to us about different issues within the community. Some of them were related to HIV AIDS, tuberculosis, women's rights. And so kind of learning about what people are doing in Namibia to advocate and make change was, was a big thing that we learned about. I felt like a lot of the things that they were doing in Namibia were also similar to what is happening in the United States. So I thought that was kind of cool to see that comparison. Elaine Eschenbacher 07:37 So what similarities? Did you see? I'm not a nurse, I'm not in that world. So you can tell it to me like, I don't know what I'm talking about. Mykenzie 07:46 Yeah. So I think women's rights was something we talked about. I think, you know, there's inequality in the United States with pay or just with who gets to make decisions? I don't know where I want to go with this. Elaine Eschenbacher 08:11 -3- It sounds like you were seeing some of the same issues in two different contexts, right? Mykenzie 08:18 Yeah, they might have been at different stages within the, like movement, I guess. Or I feel like Namibia was of maybe a few years behind or a decade behind the United States and in things that progress they've made, I guess, but you could still see there's a large correlation between the issues. Elaine Eschenbacher 08:41 Yeah. Um, do other examples from other practicums come to mind? of things you did that help to kind of illustrate those concepts? Mykenzie 08:58 I can't really, I'm trying to think of what else I did. I mean, I went to Harmony, but I don't really know. Elaine Eschenbacher 09:09 What's Harmony? Mykenzie 09:11 The Amish community? Elaine Eschenbacher 09:13 Okay. Tell me a little bit about that. Mykenzie 09:17 Well, when we were in Harmony, I guess we went around and went to people's houses, different members of the Amish community. We sat down and learned about their stories and what their day to day life looks like. Visited some of their shops, just engaged with them and kind of got to see what their life look like compared to ours. Talked a lot about how they view healthcare and how they access health care, which is very different than how I may access health care. Elaine Eschenbacher 09:54 So going into people's homes and hearing stories is not what people typically think of with health care or health education. Right? So tell me a little bit about why that's important, or why what you got out of that is maybe a better question. In terms of your nursing education. Mykenzie 10:14 Yeah. So I think going into people's homes and actually hearing their stories, you can see firsthand what their life might look like. And you can kind of get a better grasp of what they're talking about. I think people are more comfortable in their homes, so they're able to open up better to you and give you more of the real side of how they feel about different scenarios. Whether it's accessing healthcare or how they feel when they access health care, how like providers or nurses might interact with them? They might give you kind of a more in depth thought process, they might open just opened up to you better. In pediatric homecare, which I used to do, I still do a little bit of you just really build connections with people, and you learn a lot more than if you would just in a clinic setting. -4- Elaine Eschenbacher 11:14 I think regardless of what words you use, the kind of idea of a citizen professional directly connects to understanding the broader context of a person's life and the broader context of society. So I mean, those examples illustrate that really well, I think, thank you. This might feel like a little bit of a leading question, but do you feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your educational experience at Augsburg? Mykenzie 11:53 Yeah, I would say so I feel like Augsburg really pushes us to speak out and be heard. I guess through our practicum experiences and through like presentations and things that we do throughout the program, I think it kind of strengthens our ability to speak out and to make change every there's like building blocks that they kind of use, through each class that I feel like helps us gain those skills. Elaine Eschenbacher 12:34 What are, if you can recall, what are some of the building blocks or some of the skills that have been touched on or used? Mykenzie 12:42 Sure. So I feel like first we'll get a lecture on different topics, then we might do a discussion board where we sit down and think about our ideas and kind of formulate them. But then we'll also be required to do a verbal presentation so that we're getting those skills and that practice, which I may need more of. But I do think that they push us to use that and to participate then in the hands on things with the practicum. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:16 So it's a level of engagement that you couldn't possibly get from lecture alone. Mykenzie 13:22 Correct. Elaine Eschenbacher 13:31 Do you have any examples bigger small from your own work, of being involved in change making or even decision making? That kind of represent that, that sort of more engaged style of, of nursing? Mykenzie 13:52 Sure. So I, like I mentioned before have worked in pediatric home care, and have been a part of different days on the hill at the Capitol, where we talk to different legislators, oftentimes about getting more money, more funding for the services that are provided in the homes, a lot of times we will bring patients with us so that they can share their story. Just like I was saying, it's important to get in the home, to really get down to the nitty gritty, what day to day life looks like I think people in the legislation might not really understand and see where there's needs within the healthcare system. So taking the patients there, I think helps open their eyes to where change can be made. And so I think, just -5- advocating for situations like that to happen often and frequently, and to get on the couch as some people say. To get to know people, and not just from like a board room or something. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:08 So you use the word advocating? I can see that's that's one of the roles. It also seems in some ways, like you're kind of a translator or an interpreter, helping legislators understand the lived realities of people who are facing obstacles with health and health care. Mykenzie 15:29 Exactly. Yep. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:39 Thinking back on kind of your education experiences at Augsburg, what could have helped you better understand the civic skills or these concepts that we've been highlighting in this interview? Mykenzie 15:56 Yeah, I think like, I clearly remember learning about those terms, but they're not carried out throughout the program. Maybe they are in the first few classes, and there's different overlap. But now like I, I can barely even tell you the definition, which is sad. But like, I understand the concepts, I think. But yeah, I think we lose those once we get to this portion of the program. Elaine Eschenbacher 16:29 I hear that. Yeah. So if you had to do a really messy, bad job of describing what those concepts mean, what would you say? This is not a test, and you don't have to be perfect. Mykenzie 16:40 I would say like, advocating for change within the community. Getting to know people not just making assumptions. I don't know making asking people what they want to be changed, not what you think should be changed, kind of engaging with the community itself, not from the outside. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:05 Yeah, that one seems so basic, but it's not right. It's not how we typically do things at all. So thinking back on those various concepts, which, which concepts or issues were the most challenging to grasp or understand? If you remember? Mykenzie 17:26 Oh, gosh, I know. I'm not sure. Elaine Eschenbacher 17:32 Okay, that's cool. Your head has been in a different space for the last several months. Yeah, got it. Okay, so did any of these course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice or understanding of the profession of nursing? Mykenzie 18:05 -6- I think just open up and listen to people's stories and not make assumptions about things. Meeting people where they are, I think, is important too. Sometimes you can only make a small amount of change if that's what someone's willing to, to agree upon. You don't just want to go in and say we're gonna change 30 things within how you live your life and to better your health, because that's just not attainable for them. Yeah, so I don't know. Elaine Eschenbacher 19:05 So again, thinking back on your experiences at Augsburg, this isn't about the concept so much is about how you reflect. Which experiences in your education at Augsburg stand out to you as the most meaningful opportunities to like learn, reflect and integrate ideas across core coursework and community engagement? Mykenzie 19:27 Yeah, I think the practicum experiences are huge. Not only is it fun to travel, but you get to like, you get to meet your other classmates who are also nurses who have different backgrounds, different experiences. The professors all have different and unique experiences to share with each other and through the practicums we can really get to know each other and open up and learn not only from wherever we're going or whatever we're learning about but each other as well. So I think it's super important to have within the program. Elaine Eschenbacher 20:03 It sounds like there's a parallel there, where you're asked to get to know your patients in a more holistic way through the practicums you're also getting to know your classrooms and your professors in a more holistic way. Mykenzie 20:12 Exactly, yeah. And I feel like you learn just as much from your classmates as you do from the communities that you go into. Elaine Eschenbacher 20:32 So is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't or haven't yet? Mykenzie 20:44 I think it'd be cool to do more like advocating. Like picking a topic that we could advocate for and maybe do an assignment on that, or something at our work that we want to change and maybe make a proposal or something. Just so that it feels more realistic. Not just like, we're talking about how to make change and how to get involved, but actually doing it. I mean, I know that can maybe be linked to our DNP project in a way, that'd be kind of cool. I don't know. Elaine Eschenbacher 21:28 If that was an assignment, what are some of the issues or topics that you would be interested in digging into? -7- Mykenzie 21:35 I mean, for nurses, like staffing ratios is huge. Allocation of funds, maybe access to holistic things for our patients, because oftentimes, a lot of therapies aren't covered under insurance. So maybe I'm looking into that, how could we advocate for change to insurance companies even? Elaine Eschenbacher 22:04 Yeah, and if you move the dial on any of those, it could really change the way healthcare operates, significantly. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Mykenzie 22:26 That's a loaded question. Elaine Eschenbacher 22:30 That's what we do here, we ask loaded questions. Mykenzie 22:33 Um it's interesting, because at first, I feel like nurses were made as heroes and that we were like, put on a pedestal by like, social media. And, I mean, I remember watching CNN and like whole communities clapping outside of their windows for the nurses. But then at the same time, like we didn't have PPE or anything. And nobody seemed to care. I would be in people's homes, and I didn't have like proper equipment to take care of them. Well, you put your life on the line, essentially. I mean, I would reuse masks that clearly are not supposed to be reused or never had any for a long time, I would just wear a piece of cloth on my face. But then you would see people in the community wearing n95s. And the government was nowhere to be seen. Um, I think there's a huge need for change to come after the pandemic is over. I think in five to 10 years, we'll learn a lot about how things need to be different, how we need to be better prepared. And I think nurses are the ones who are going to be at the forefront of making that change and preparing for a future pandemic or future situation. Elaine Eschenbacher 24:33 That's a really powerful statement. You sort of summed it all up, but I'm going to back up a little bit. Do you feel like you have been able to have a voice in making decisions in this kind of constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Mykenzie 24:50 Um, I mean, I don't feel like right now, no. I feel like we are still like, in the midst of everything. It's getting better But I feel like I have to focus more on taking care of patients. Yep. That necessarily having time to like, advocate for change or being involved in decision making. Yeah, I but I would like to in the future for sure. Elaine Eschenbacher 25:17 Yeah. And that has to do with staffing ratios and everything else you just mentioned. Yeah, yeah, I hear that. So you talked about how you feel like as a result of the pandemic, things have to change. And in five years, we'll be learning a lot. And we'll we'll be sort of faced with you didn't use this word, but I'm going to like a reckoning, right? And nurses are going to have to be at the forefront of it. What are some -8- things that are going to have to break or change or be transformed or, you know, be disrupted to make that happen? Mykenzie 25:55 Yeah, I think people who make decisions need to actually see what it's like to be a nurse, and what what goes on day to day. I mean, you hear people are dying, but I don't think people really get that you don't see that you don't see that what the nurses do, or the toll it puts on your body. And I mean, I am nowhere near what some ICU nurses have had to experience seeing death day to day, but I experienced what families feel in their homes being isolated with their ventilator dependent patient who's two years old and hasn't met family members yet, because they're scared that they're gonna get sick and die. They don't want to go to critical doctor's appointments sometimes, because they don't want to put them at risk of getting sick. But I don't know, I think I think really seeing things firsthand is important. I think listening to stories of nurses is going to be important to make change. And then really just looking at how ill prepared we were. And being able to say, Yes, we were not prepared, not saying, you know, like, we could have done better and admitting that we could have done better, I think is a big thing. Elaine Eschenbacher 27:33 And evaluated, honestly. Yeah. Because sometimes I think it's like we did as best we could. But did we really, I guess is a big thing. So when you think about the decision makers who need to actually be listening and be making those kinds of things? Like who are the decision makers that you're thinking of? Mykenzie 28:08 I mean, hospital administrators, government officials, I think it's important for actual nurses to get in those types of roles, too, maybe have a better voice and understanding? I don't know, I think that would help. Elaine Eschenbacher 28:26 Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, that's the end of the formal questions now that you know, kind of what we're going for. Is there anything else that you would like to add that I didn't ask? Mykenzie 28:47 I don't think so. If I would have taken time to actually look up the terms I probably could have. Elaine Eschenbacher 28:53 Well, we weren't asking for any pre work. So Mykenzie 28:56 I worked until like, 11. Last night. Elaine Eschenbacher 28:59 You did great. And part of the purpose of this literally, is to get that kind of honest feedback and honest reaction at people from people at different stages of their education. So we're talking to people who are -9- in different nursing programs and Augsburg as well as graduates. And it's super useful to hear what sticks and what doesn't, right and how it sticks. If it does. Mykenzie 29:24 I totally remember the terms but like, I, I'm more focused on pharmacology, right. Elaine Eschenbacher 29:32 Totally understandable. And really good feedback for the nursing department to hear that. That that's the reality of students, right? Mykenzie 29:43 Yeah. And it's interesting because right now what we're doing, we kind of wish we would have done that more at the like a little bit more in the beginning. So I think just kind of like, making it more equal throughout with the different types of courses might be easier. Elaine Eschenbacher 30:00 Say a little bit more about wishing that you had more. Mykenzie 30:03 Yeah, like, wishing we would have had like some of our courses related to like health assessment. Or we're learning about things right now that we should have already learned prior to clinical. So like, different disease processes, like, but then we see it in clinical. And we're like, oh, we don't know anything about that yet. We should have been educated on that sooner. But now, clearly, I don't remember different terms that we should know. But we focus very heavily on that in the front end. So I think just making it more equal throughout would probably be make it a better like, well rounded program. Elaine Eschenbacher 30:46 I'm curious. And this this, I'm not sure if this question will even make sense. Because I'm not a nurse, I'm not in the program. But when you think about the clinicals and the kinds of courses that you need to be ready for those as well as the kinds of concepts and courses that we've been talking about, about citizen nurse. Do you see connections across those two kinds of courses or those kinds of learning? Mykenzie 31:32 Well, yeah, I think like, every day at clinical you walk in and talk to patients that, you know, you don't know what their struggles are, or I don't know. Just like, I think if we talked about it at the same time as clinicals, like we would be able to just look at it differently instead of like, just here for the medical stuff like we would be looking more holistically at the patient. I don't know. Elaine Eschenbacher 32:12 Anything else that you want to add for the good of the order? Mykenzie 32:16 I don't think so. - 10 -
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Theresa Reichert, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022) 4/8/2022 • 46:42 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people, role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, T...
Show more Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022) 4/8/2022 • 46:42 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people, role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful SPEAKERS Elaine Eschenbacher, Theresa Reichert Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00 Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the Assistant Provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Theresa Reichert 00:00 Yeah, my name is Teresa Reichert and I am a nurse at the center of care health system here in the rural Minnesota. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00 Great. And are you currently a student at Augsburg or graduate? Theresa Reichert 00:00 I am currently a student in the transcultural nursing program. Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00 Excellent. Before we continue, I would just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University where it will be made available to the public? Theresa Reichert 01:04 Yes, I give my consent. Elaine Eschenbacher 01:05 Great. Thank you. All right. To start out, can you tell me a little bit about your education background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg? Theresa Reichert 01:15 -1- All right. Um, so I went to a public school for my elementary, high school, middle school and high school. And then after graduating from high school, I attended a private Catholic College. Would you like the name of the college? Elaine Eschenbacher 01:32 I'm curious. Yeah. Theresa Reichert 01:34 All right. So after I attended high school, I went to the private Catholic College, small rural Catholic college, the College of St. Benedict, in St. Cloud, or near St. Cloud, Minnesota, but it's actually in St. Joe. And I studied nursing there. And after studying nursing, I worked in the field for a while and then did some, I call it field learning, on the ground learning, experiential learning, abroad for some time in India. So I learned through working there, and then after spending months in India, I eventually ended up getting a master's degree from the College of St. Catherine, although it's St. Catherine's University now. And that was in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And then now I'm currently studying my transcultural nurse leadership degree at Augsburg University. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:14 Great, thank you. Your time in India. Was that through a formal program? Or did you create that on your own? Theresa Reichert 02:19 No, it ended up being through connections and networking with a nun that had come to the school and given a presentation. So she had come to the College of St. Benedict to give a presentation, I network with her and ended up working with her and then nurse from Australia, and did some learning. We were in Calcutta, India, and I was there from August through December. Elaine Eschenbacher 02:35 So you have a number of years of experience as a nurse and in different education settings before coming to Augsburg. So before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged in community or being able to make change in institutions? Theresa Reichert 03:50 I didn't know my role. And if I were to back up even further from your question, I would say that before coming to Augsburg, I was still trying to discern my passion as a nurse, which was already there, but I couldn't see it. I didn't quite recognize it. It was there was a through line through my experiences. But I think coming to Augsburg in the transcultural nursing leadership program actually helped me clarify how I fit into nursing because I never did feel like I fit in. And it gave me a place where some of the things that I was interested in had footing, could take root. And there's a new trajectory that made sense to me in emancipatory nursing basically. So with that, I was able to discover that that my passion of really learning deeply, thinking deeply and maybe challenging what I always thought or what others always thought to be true, especially in nursing, was something that I was more passionate about. So with the relationship with being engaged with the community, and changing institutions, I now can see which I didn't before, the ways in which these experiences and interactions, especially long term with the -2- community can really shape and influence how institutions are changed, created, transformed by these relationships with one another. And that I can see that my role as a nurse is so pivotal to being that bridge. Elaine Eschenbacher 05:30 Awesome. I want to go back a little bit to how you viewed nursing before you came to Augsburg, you said that you didn't feel like you fit into the profession. Could you describe that a little bit more? Theresa Reichert 05:42 Yeah, I talk about this sometimes with my co workers and colleagues, but they always say they meaning I hear it all the time with nursing professors and nursing co workers, colleagues, nurses are type A, we're task oriented, we're not creative. We're the logical type. You know, we don't we don't have time for creativity, we have lives to save. Whereas I've always been someone who loves the creative side of things. I love art, I love painting, I love drawing and thinking creatively, thinking about things differently. And I also don't see myself as type A, I don't see myself as competitive, I don't see myself as needing to be the best, get the A have all the details in a row to have that control, I don't need that control. That sometimes is perceived as Type A. And so these messages that I kind of kept receiving throughout nursing education and in my colleagues throughout many different departments, was a message that my creative thinking wasn't something that was really a part of nursing unless it was critical thinking and backed by evidence. And the side of me that was maybe analytical and thoughtful and deep thinking in a creative way wasn't as well received. As much as the side of me that would have been logical and using data as the only way to move things forward. If that makes sense. Elaine Eschenbacher 07:25 Yeah, it does. Thank you. So you touched on this a little bit with your previous answer. But has your view of the role of a nurse changed since coming to Augsburg and if so how? Theresa Reichert 07:41 Well, at this time I came. So prior to coming to Augsburg, I think it something that was important was I had been teaching in a higher ed program in nursing, and had felt so constrained. Whenever I tried to do things that were maybe more creative or different, I was told you don't understand. That's not how it's done. I don't even remember all the messages. But I remember feeling very stifled and frustrated. There's things I did understand but couldn't communicate and didn't have the hierarchy to have any power or influence behind it. And interestingly, right as the pandemic hit in 2020, I ended up switching positions to a nurse leadership position with Centracare, where I work now. And as a part of that transition, I was just thrust in a very complicated department with a complicated history. And just like the wheels of change, just cycling in motion before I even got there. And I was leading this team that I didn't know without a lot of leadership experience, but I had a very solid leadership team. And what I learned from that, and it occurred simultaneously with Augsburg, so I could put what Augsburg was teaching me into practice, almost immediately and see the intricate relationships between everything I was learning. So with both of those in combination, I was able to see the type of influence creativity and personal knowledge had in reshaping the department and totally transforming the culture of a place into something new. And I'm really interested in cultural transformation. And being able to put those things into practice right away, what are those things meaning the things I was learning into practice was -3- transformational for me internally as well as the department. So I was able to shift the institution both in my department, in the way we think, and shift that also kind of up the higher hierarchy of healthcare systems, I guess, and just start leveraging different people, different thinking, different relationships, to start shifting change in the institution too. So it was really exciting. And it was a draining year, too. Elaine Eschenbacher 10:35 This next question flows really nicely out of what you just said. So were the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in classes that you've taken at Augsburg? And if so which ones stand out? Theresa Reichert 10:51 Yeah, the citizen nurse concepts were really talked about frequently, particularly in the Room at the Table class. And the ones that I've really been thinking about in particular, was systems mapping, looking at kind of human centered mapping. So looking out at who has influence in either an organization or community, and how do you use that to advance different initiatives. But actually, the concept of the narrative has transformed my project for my DNP project, into a narrative project, because of what I had learned in the Making Room at the Table class with Katie. Elaine Eschenbacher 11:39 Can you describe your project and how you're gonna go about it? Theresa Reichert 11:45 I'll start kind of at the beginning, but when I was in nursing education, I saw so many different biases that occurred. So like, people coming back from spring break, and the faculty would say, where did you go on vacation in spring break, assuming that everyone went to vacation. Or I'd hear them say, to the men in the class, Oh, you guys stop talking about all your girlfriends and pay attention in class, or just different little things like that I would hear all the time and see all the time, or when students would advocate for their needs. I would hear terms used such as complaining, trying to manipulate professors? Things like that. And I started to see some patterns. And I wondered, how would some of these things were really influencing the students chances for success. So for example, some students being invited into or encouraged into the teacher's assistant role, which was a prestigious role in the school. Prior to me being in a role where I could hire people, there weren't many students of color that had been invited, or seen as successful enough to become a teacher's assistant. And so I started noticing these patterns and thought, boy, this could be this is really harmful to a lot of students in seeing nursing as a shortage and health inequities in seeing this big connection. And I wondered what I can do. And then I happen to go to Augsburg, and my initial project was looking at how to challenge implicit bias that's unaddressed among nursing faculty. But there are so many barriers to that. And as I was learning and learning about different barriers to it, I realized that nursing culture, American culture, there's so many barriers in our thinking, that prevent us from even welcoming the idea that nurses in particular have bias much less than nursing professors, because we're such a caring profession. And there's the story that we tell ourselves that, well, you can't be caring and create harm or cause harm. And so I started thinking about that more and more. And then as I was taking the Room at the Table course, which incorporated a lot of the work from Harry Boyte, I started to realize that maybe through narrative or through story, we can connect to people in ways and that might not be open to receiving -4- some of the messages we might have to share. At the same time, in my work, I was learning and working a lot with neuroscience and implicit bias and doing some training there. As well as in my leadership training. They worked with the scarf model with neuroscience the Neuro Leadership Institute scarf model, which looks at how do you decrease the threat response and people? And I wondered if using story could help decrease the threat response and if we could be really strategic about how we did that. And I say you story and I'm really talking about using narrative. But I like the simplicity of story. So I say story. And then I wondered if we could actually attack certain implicit biases and mitigate them through the use of our story and the use of our narrative. And so that's kind of how it's come into play with my project is really looking at, can you use story to change and shift people's mindsets, when they otherwise wouldn't have been open to it? It's really interesting I'm loving it. But that really came from, the seed was planted in a in the citizen nurse class, and looking at the use of narrative in particular. Elaine Eschenbacher 15:48 Well, I wish you good luck with it; it sounds like something that could have ripple effects in a lot of different areas. So again, thinking about your courses at Augsburg or your learning experiences at Augsburg, can you tell me which experiences you've had in the classroom or in coursework, what pedagogical practices helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen nurse? Theresa Reichert 16:18 I saw elements embedded throughout. And one thing that I saw, even throughout the classes was that the elements of the citizen nurse were uplifted and encouraged. So the use of narrative was encouraged in class assignments in class communications. And so that was uplifted in a really freeing because it, it allowed that creativity to come out in a different way and was welcomed. So just welcoming that type of thinking. It came up significantly in the Making Room at the Table class, when it talked about how you build community, how you look at community, who you who influences and shapes community. And then now, even in my current epidemiology course, really looking at how are institutions shaped. So I'm able to pull information from other classes into the new classes, based on what the current course is. So with epidemiology it really looking at how do we shape institutions? And what's our role? And how do our mindsets impact that? Elaine Eschenbacher 17:30 Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your educational experiences at Augsburg? Theresa Reichert 17:45 Absolutely. And part of it was because I was able to implement some of the things right away as I was leading change in my own department. So thinking slow to go fast was one thing that I've been thinking about a lot, or taking in multiple perspectives, or when we're looking at pulling in evidence for some of our initiatives, thinking more about where does this research come from? Who's written it who's not included in it? And how do we get that information to help inform our decision making our practice as we're, for example, building in a new teaching or learning strategy to help teach our patients. So that's one small example. Different elements of shifting culture have been really important as some of the classes I've taken, talk a little bit about shifting culture, shifting mindsets. And it's not as explicit as that -5- maybe I'm reading into some of that a little bit. But basically taking in multiple perspectives to shift mindsets with the citizen nurse class, the Making Room at the Table course, one that's been really particularly one element that was particularly helpful for me in my role in leadership was really looking at these are two concepts actually using the community to inform the practice and what we're trying to do and partnering with an equal status. And then also, how do you organize with understanding that mapping, the political mapping of the institution, the organization, the community, and really thinking about that, broadly has been very helpful in as I'm trying to do certain initiatives or make change who do I need to influence who do I need to talk to who needs by and how might I get that? Who else am I not seeing that I maybe should be seeing to bring into that conversation? So I would say those are some of the most pertinent to what I've done so far. Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02 You mentioned thinking slow to go fast. Can you describe what that means? Theresa Reichert 20:07 Yeah. So my project is really based on that I'm working on is really based on cultural change, which is in changing mindsets, which is slow, hard to do, just very complicated and not easy. And I think a good example of this was that I was in a discussion yesterday, when we were talking about how do you help decrease inequities, and common solutions had been? Well, if we can change structure of things, then then the mindsets will shift to. And I was thinking well, but if, if you don't do anything to shift the culture of thinking, in doing some of those slower processes, you're going to get stumbled up as you try to do some of these initiatives. And it's going to take just as long anyway, even though you're trying to go fast. And the presenter, had a different take on the situation. But then 15 minutes into the conversation talked about the results of his structural attempt at structural change without attentiveness to cultural shift, just as well. And it, it didn't go well. And I think, really thinking about okay, how do I take that concept and think of how do we go slow to go fast? And so really looking at how do we do some cultural change things that is notoriously slow and challenging, that would set us up for more rapid success later on. And at the same time, how do I look at different things going on in life with a respect for slowness? And taking the time, for example, with some of the citizens work to gather multiple inputs to partner with people to build relationships, so that whatever our end product that we're trying to do, or the end outcome is much more meaningful? Because we've spent the time at the beginning to build a solid foundation. So I think that a lot about how do we slow down our pace? And how would that impact what we're trying to do? Elaine Eschenbacher 20:08 Yeah, it sounds so basic and obvious, but it's not how we operate? Theresa Reichert 21:31 And none in healthcare either because we're so results driven. Elaine Eschenbacher 22:00 What could have helped you better understand civic skills, or the concepts we've already highlighted in this interview, and, and which concepts or issues were the most challenging to understand. -6- Theresa Reichert 22:44 I think I had the benefit of living close by, and I was able to go to the commons, Augsburg Commons, and really talk to particularly one gentleman there and do some professional hanging out which I love that term, too. I just love that. That's another thing I've used all the time. So I could experience it in action a little bit. But I would have loved to have had that experience in non-pandemic times to really understand what that was like. So I do think that type of experiential learning would have been beneficial. It was limited by COVID and understandably so. That would be the first thing I would think of thankfully, I mean, that one experience with the Commons was so meaningful, I feel sad that my other classmates didn't get that. Elaine Eschenbacher 23:52 Were there any concepts or issues that were particularly challenging to grasp? Theresa Reichert 24:00 I wasn't the mapping was tricky at first. And it still is, but I see it coming up in different ways, in my work, and I just different ways of understanding that. And partly, I think it was difficult, because in some ways, I think about some of those things intuitively. So putting them on paper, is something that's really challenging for me. So I liked that challenge. But so that one was challenging the concept of - one other thing that I loved was just suspending the role and looking at some of the, the rituals and the symbols that we use in nursing that almost act as walls to providing care was something we talked about in that class. And at that same time, as we had talked about roles, rituals and symbols. I had heard a podcast by Resma Menakem and Krista Tippett where he talked about culture change, and how meaningful it was for people looking to make change to focus on culture instead of cognitive strategies. And he talked a lot about the symbols of belonging. And so I think about those a lot, too. And I know that's kind of a side tangent, but both of those things occurred at the same time, that class and that conversation, and it really rooted in my experience at the Augsburg Commons when I was sitting at a desk kind of checking people in and I recognize how much more comfort I felt with a pen in my hand with something to do with that pen. And tried intentionally to disarm myself by setting it aside. And looking at what that looks like, and focusing on the body language. And so that self reflection, which I love, self reflection, I love doing it, and I love the prompts towards it. But it always makes things more challenging when you look at yourself, and how you can change do things better, or how you've been arming yourself in ways you didn't realize. Or I should say how I've been arming myself in ways I didn't realize. Even with a pen and a stethoscope. Elaine Eschenbacher 26:19 Because we're guarded by this task that we're charged with. Theresa Reichert 26:23 Yep. And I'm focusing on this task, and writing down this name, when the more meaningful work is talking to that person next to you. With all of that set aside? Elaine Eschenbacher 26:41 Did any of these course concepts impact your current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing as a whole? And maybe if you have a story that could illustrate that? -7- Theresa Reichert 27:11 Yeah, that one, I might have to think a little bit more on. I mean, I know I talked about what, how I was able to transform the culture of my practice, and really switch the mindset from some of the thinking in the department that was really focused on some things that are traditionally associated with white supremacy culture, so perfectionism, maybe defensiveness, either or thinking or I can't remember all of them off the top of my head right now. But I saw a lot of that type of thinking. And the way that these concepts and I tend to really map things in my mind in really connected ways. And so when I talk about these concepts, they're concepts from the Making Room at the Table course, which was specifically focused on some of the citizen nurse work. But like I said, it was embedded in all of the courses. So I'm, I'm really speaking collectively of what I've learned. I was able to use a lot of that in my current practice to shift the mindset into how do you create a community or department of belonging, where you can really get input from each person on that team, but also from the patients and build up the patients and the teams and deconstruct my own status as a leader in a way that helps us function better? And really questioning what better looks like. So one example, maybe I could give you in shifting thinking would be when looking at efficiency. And that's a prioritize thing in healthcare and something we were trying to work on. And when we were seeing more patients, the doctor said, You know what, I can see more patients, so by cutting the time with them, so if I cut out my lunch breaks, and then I switched all the appointments to 15 minutes and 30 I could see more in a day. And just asking questions like, well, what would that mean for the patients and what does that take away? And what's the value of that to us? When we ended up saying, you know, it's really important that we keep that 30 minutes with the patient and don't take that time away? How can we find efficiency somewhere else without compromising the relationships we have because that's where if we don't have that time, we're not going to get the information, we need to care for them or build in heavily into that relationship piece. And their personal knowing and building trust, and all of that. So that's not a great example, other than being in classes that allowed a shift in thinking, of my own thinking allowed a shift in practice. And I think even a small shift of you know, what, we're not going to decrease the time with a patient, we're going to look for other ways to be efficient, because we value that relationship signals something different than it may be signals had been signaled before. Because prior to that, it hadn't even been questioned like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we'll just do that. Instead of seeing relationship as a value, and something really important that we are going to uphold. It's not a it's not a perfectly clear cut example. But I think of that a lot when I think of shifting thinking the impact, because it ripples down to the whole team, then. Elaine Eschenbacher 31:25 So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? Theresa Reichert 31:39 So you asked which experiences or courses helped me kind of bring it all together? Elaine Eschenbacher 31:44 Yeah, Where were those meaningful opportunities where you had maybe a aha moment kind of thing, to where it integrated and it involves reflecting and integrating. -8- Theresa Reichert 31:57 Seeing it lived out by the professors was... there's so much depth and weight to seeing that lived out. Seeing Katie, when I had gone to Augsburg Commons bring a healthy meal, share part of her meal that she brought for one of the participants, because in how much he cared about his health, and that she was partnering together with him, there is so much humanity in that action. And it was personal in the walls of Well, I'm not going to keep my personal life and professional life totally separate, because there's some humanity there that I don't want to separate from. That was powerful. The second was when I saw Deb Schumacher recognize the strain and stress in the class and being willing to shift and listen in a meaningful way. So, being a student, during a pandemic, especially with all the responsibilities in health care. And the mental burden of all of that is a lot and the students in my class, were talking about how challenging that was, and she listened. And she made changes based on that to help. Basically, the professor listened to what we were saying not as complained, but complaining, but through a caring, compassionate lens in a way that was really contradictory to what I had seen and experienced as a faculty member, when students would bring concerns forward. That were seen as complaining or trying to manipulate and get out of homework. The contrast of that and seeing, seeing the values lived in action, and being willing to change themselves was transformative for me. And I think that comes from again, like with Deb, being willing to listen and give us as much power in the relationship as students as the professor and was really like, it makes my heart warm, fuzzy and feel like I belong in that space because we were listened to and all of us got even closer because of it. And then seeing Katie do that was do that meaning seeing Katie treat people with in suspend status and in in that way, it was also different than I had seen for many nurses and building that relationship on an equal playing field. So I would say for me seeing the professors live, what the citizen nurse concepts in action was really transformative for me. Particularly building relationships, pulling information from the stakeholders in the community at equal value. And then I saw lots of storytelling and narrative use as well. Elaine Eschenbacher 35:20 As you were describing it, I could see the parallel between the classroom experience and what you described about keeping the time with patients at 30 minutes instead of 15. It's centralizing the relationship for efficiency. Is there anything that you wished you'd learned at your during your time at Augsburg but haven't yet? Theresa Reichert 35:55 Right now I'm just enjoying the ride and it's hard to answer that question, because my mind is so full. There are so many different things that that might be a question I can answer better five years from now. Because I still have a whole year to go where I don't know what's coming. And so I think, yeah, I don't think I can answer that question. I will say that it's exceeded my expectations of what I thought I was going to learn and what I could learn. And I feel, I told in my interview for coming to the program, that I wanted to come to Augsburg for personal and professional reasons, not just to get the DNP. And check that off. So I could, I don't know have some sort of hierarchy in the nursing community and be listened to or it wasn't that but there it was primarily for personal reasons, as far as wanting to learn how I could be my most full self, in caring moments, however, that might look, whatever that might look like. And I definitely, that exceeded my expectations as far as bringing out my authentic self, and that -9- being welcomed at Augsburg, which I hadn't felt in the same way. In many of the other programs, though, St. Kate's was great. I love St. Kate's too. But this, this was a sense of belonging. That was very different and welcoming, and a sense of place. That I really value. So I think there's a lot in there that I'll still process through as time goes on. And I think the best teachers are the ones that keep teaching you years after the teaching moment. And I think that I'm set up for that. Elaine Eschenbacher 37:54 So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Theresa Reichert 38:04 How's the pandemic changed my view of the profession? I think that's also a hard question to answer because the pandemic occurred also while I was in school. And so a lot of my shift in thinking could also be attributed to some of the things I was reading and doing and seeing. One thing I may be recognize is paying more attention to the stories we tell ourselves as nurses that might be myths, and how that impacts our communities. So I mentioned one myth, we tell ourselves as nurses that this might be a subconscious myth, but if we're caring we can't do harm, we're almost immune from harm or the myth that nurses can be objective in assessments. I think those were challenged both in the pandemic and also in my coursework. And thinking about those has been very valuable in looking at where it is my place in nursing continue in journey forward. What does that look like? Um, so I wouldn't I don't know my you know, my, my nursing journey has been so full of ups and downs and twists and turns and shifts in thinking and so I wouldn't say that any of that has changed necessarily. So, like, for example, when I was working at a urban Children's Hospital in Minnesota. And we had wonderful people, it was the best culture of people that I've worked with. loved working there. They're great for it was one of my first jobs. But then also I was seeing these good people, these good nurses when patients were coming in. And there they were Somali patients in particular, that kept coming in for vomiting and diarrhea after the first time they saw vomiting and diarrhea. And it was such a pattern that instead of asking, why is this a pattern what's going on here? The nurses would be passive aggressive towards the parents and patients who are scared and say, Tell me what your emergency is today, with emphasis on emergency, what is the emergency that brings you here today, and just talk about them in a really frustrated way. And so I thought of looking at what are the patterns here and recognize that many of them had been coming from refugee camps where cholera was spreading, and could kill quickly with either vomiting or diarrhea, symptoms. And so I saw nice people still doing harm or not recognizing ways they could help, even from my first nursing career. So that wasn't new. But I think what's new, was maybe my role in nursing, and that I had a place and then might, like, I always felt like I thought differently about things or saw things a little differently. And I think what has shifted in me is that I now see that that has a place in nursing too, and that I have a place and that the contributions that I have are unique and valued. And they've been uplifted through my work at Augsburg and I think that comes through Augsburg but also through the pandemic, because I've seen in the pandemic all the pain caused by it. And families have experienced that type of pain, misinformation, the drama, the attacks on people. And it's, it's made me think of what is nursing doing well, and what what are we missing, that we're not actually treating some of the things that are causing some of the biggest pain in our communities. And so again, it goes back to thinking and I think the pandemic has really gotten me asking different questions about what nursing's role is, and how do we move forward? I know that was a really long answer, kind of pulling in from different things. - 10 - Elaine Eschenbacher 42:51 Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Theresa Reichert 42:59 I think I'm lucky that I feel like I have a voice with the institution I work for. I have heard and other people having a very different experience. The leadership team that I work with, and the ways that they uplift some of the same values that we were working on in school, I think, opens up more curiosity to different thinking. Then, other places where I maybe have worked. So had I been still teaching and my other role. I wouldn't have seen it as much, but I do now, see it in my current role. Do you mind repeating that question one more time? Elaine Eschenbacher 43:42 Sure. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly changing landscape of healthcare? Theresa Reichert 43:51 So yeah, to go back to it, I have a voice now, in a small ways, in the landscape of my own specific healthcare institution, I don't feel like I would have had a voice as much in academia. In my previous experience, only I can only talk about that sliver. But I think once I officially had my degree, then I would have a voice just based on hierarchy. So even though I did have a voice and was listened to it wasn't the same. I can see that nursing looks different and it's not always in the hospital, and not always in academia. And so through this pandemic, and things shifting, and all of the things that have kind of trickled down I see a lot of work as a nurse actually, in my community. Specifically, there's a lot of racial bullying in my community. I live near Coldspring, Minnesota Which this last year has had a lot of racialized incidents. And then the school I send my kids to, also suffers from the myth of that doesn't happen here. That type of stuff doesn't happen here. And so looking at how that impacts health in small ways, in my little personal community to and what's my role in helping that as a citizen, but also a nurse, and a parent and all of the above. So I think all the way that nursing shifts beyond the hospital walls when I shouldn't say shift, because it's always been beyond the hospital walls. But I see so much relevance in different ways of impacting the community than I did before. Elaine Eschenbacher 45:54 Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask? Theresa Reichert 46:00 You know, I should have prepared for that question. But I didn't. Not now. But the way that I think I'll think of a million things later on, I'm sure. - 11 -
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Timaka Wallace, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022) 5/7/2022 • 47:26 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies, vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand SPEAKERS Timaka Wallace, Katie C...
Show more Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022) 5/7/2022 • 47:26 SUMMARY KEYWORDS Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies, vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand SPEAKERS Timaka Wallace, Katie Clark Katie Clark 00:03 All right, thank you so much for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher ed. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the health commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? Timaka Wallace 00:22 Um, to Timaka Wallace. I'm a registered nurse and also doctoral nursing practice student in the transcultural leadership track at Augsburg University. Katie Clark 00:34 Great. And then before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to be interviewing interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University which will be made available to the public? Timaka Wallace 00:46 Yes, I consent. Katie Clark 00:47 Great. So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background, and how you ended up choosing to study at Augsburg? Timaka Wallace 00:56 So my educational background, I am a native-born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. All my education from the undergrads like starting it in the nursing, where I started as a CNA (certified nursing assistant), LPN (licensed practical nurse), RN (registered nurse), and I went up to nurse practitioner, when I enrolled in a nurse practitioner program that took me out of my traditional comfort zone of Chicago, and I was accepted here in Boston, Massachusetts as MGH. It was called the MGH School of Nursing, which is now as MGH Institute, and I was accepted in a psychiatric nurse practitioner program, which I was -1- going to do my DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice), and engage the double masters because that's how the program was set up. However, I didn't flourish there a lot because I felt so I want to say like in prison, that was the first time I ever felt so in prison, in education, where I felt like my opinion didn't matter there. It was a it was more like a system I was in there. And I was so frustrated with the system and how I feel like I was being treated, that I started reaching out to looking up other schools via the Internet to try to figure out who would be who would take my credit. So, you know, I got online, I found Augsburg and I found it to be a little bit freeing when I looked at the doctoral program there, and you know, they had a master's so I flew to Minnesota, I set up an interview with the not an interview, we did have a phone interview me and Dr. Joyce Miller, and I was making her aware of my frustrations and I flew to Minnesota. I was there for about three days I met the staff went around the campus, because what I knew at that point, I wanted to drop out, because I wanted to just do my doctoral project on like, my master's is, I'm sorry, I went to Governors State University in Chicago. So I have a bachelor's in health, and then a master's in I majored in addiction studies. So then, the psychiatric part came in, because usually mental health and addiction studies disorders, they overlap with one another. So I felt that that was great. But then when I got there, nobody was in really interested in addiction studies, or you know, but they but these are the patients that we're going to see pysch. So I, it was a big disconnect of having a psychiatric nurse practitioner program with no curriculum on addiction. It was like really crazy. So but being born in Chicago, I was aware of addictions. Because I grew up in Chicago, Ida B. Wells project. So Chicago Housing Authority, so all you saw was addictions, a lot of my friends, my neighbors, and then I can't even go father, my father was a heroin, addicted to heroin. So I just felt like that was normal to have them overlap with one another. But this program didn't feel the need to deal with it. So I wanted to write on like addictions and stuff. Nobody wanted to be my reader. Nobody wanted you to do research, I found one person, Dr. Mahoney, she was more the only person like, open to see these type of things, and culturally open to them. But in the middle of my writing back and forth and emailing and sending her my papers over the summer, her grading, she left abruptly from the university. So now I'm back to where I started, like trying to find somebody to want to deal with me. And it was just a mess. It was more like people were like the other professors like, well, you could just get on this research. I'm doing this, or you could just get on that research, and I just didn't want to do that. So it's frustrating. It's frustrating me just terribly and being African American. I know what it feels like to be marginalized. I know what it feels like to be oppressed. And that's what I was feeling to the point I was expressing to one of my chairs, she was very, you know, she was white, of course, but she was very nice. She was one of my, she did the community part for us nurse practitioners; she wanted to make sure that nurse practitioners know everything in the community here in Boston. And I was just telling her my frustrations and she just was like Timaka, I know what you're talking about. Exactly. She said, but you've come so far, just cooperate and graduate. But I just could not find, you know, in my spirit wouldn't allow. So at the time, I just was trying to find a way out of that school. And I knew I was close, but it was just too hard for me to like, you know, I think it didn't resonate with who I was to just do that. Ended up I met Joyce, I call we set up some I flew to Minnesota once I landed there and met Joyce. I just meshed like my, I don't know how to explain it. It's just when I got there, it felt like home like it felt like I was accepted even before I even got there. So I did get myself together. I came back to Chicago. I talked to some of my old nursing professors. And of course, they're like, they're older women now that like 70-80 years old and eight, one push me to go back because I was like a semester away they like to market you go back, you do this. And then you do what you want to do. So I dropped the I dropped the doctoral program, I finished with a master's I finished a nurse practitioner program, and I -2- am a board certified candidate to take my board certification for psychiatric nurse practitioner. But I always knew I was going to go back to Augsburg to get my doctorate degree. I just knew it. Because I had committed to myself that I'll never go to another institution based upon aesthetics. Because MGH is very aesthetic they into everything. Everybody's into this, that and people want to be affiliated. And I didn't know that because I just came from Chicago and not had never experienced that. So I didn't want to go anywhere else while I had to compromise who I was as a person, as a nurse, as an advocate for the vulnerable populations of addiction studies as well as mental health. So when I did decide to go back to school, I knew I was going to be it. And I when I met Joyce it was in 2014 and 15. Yeah, because my mom just died. And it just took me this long to get here. But I think this is exactly where I should be. Things that happened to me and MGH was great. All the oppression, all the ratio, the structural racism they had was great, because right now that gave me a lot of power to know what I will won't compromise at this point moving forward in my career and my life in general. So I think it was all worth the journey as hard as it was as disappointed as I was. I just now standing, you know, you know my truth, and I'm okay with that. So, Augsburg that's how I ended up at Augsburg, because the bad, I had a bad experience in education. I don't think any students should have be in prison because we all learn differently. And nobody, I'm not worried about aesthetics. I've never been that I come from nothing. So for me, it's like, I'm a genuine person. Because when you grew up in the projects, and you grow up poor, everybody's there because they need to be it's not I'm here because oh, my mom can afford some random No, everybody's there because you're there because you can't afford to be anywhere else. And we have always made the best of that. My childhood experience - so I'm very authentic in who I am. Because when you grew up poor, you don't have any money to be anybody but you. And to me, I didn't even know I was poor. So I had to grow up and read about it. Like oh, shoot, we were poor. Oh, wow. But the blessing in it is I'm so genially who I am and I'm so genuinely of what I represented stand for. And I liked that. And if that what poor equates to, um, I'm okay with that. So, that's how I did end up there. I had to learn I'm not into all the aesthetics. I'm not that girl. Not her. I want to be in the trenches. I want to be with the population the marginalized population like addictions or mental health that people don't want to deal with because I am them in such a way in so many ways. So I just more I'm more, you know, I just mesh better with the vulnerable populations. It's this mold that I, it takes nothing for me to be understanding and know and understanding that it's just just just a part of like who I am even though I have all this education, and you know, I have seen the world is a blessing I have been blessed to see the world in two different perspectives, but I do know what it is to be marginalized and oppressed and poor. So I don't get it twisted. I just don't. And I just always stand in the gap for them, and I always will. So where people want to work at MGH I don't I never have I did a clinical there on Blake-11 psych, I almost jumped out the window myself. All the people were there on the unit were rich, they were lawyers, you know, children of lawyers, children of judges, children of this doctor, that doctor this rich person, and then it's like, you go in to help to do the psychotherapy, everybody on the unit like the nurse, you get reported. And it's like, whoa, don't go in there with them. That's "such and such" that donates millions. So I was on a unit of a psych unit to help people and they were running the show - the psych patients was really running the show - because of the donors and the prestige they come from. So I'm like, so why am I here today? If I can't go into this patient's room? To do this? It was just crazy. But this is MGH culture. This is how they do it. This is the Harvard professor's son. This is the MIT such as such, it was just it's everything he is is like aesthetic. So I just didn't find myself being effective. And that's just not who I am. I'm not interested in, I guess what the -3- people with the money? I don't know. I guess I'm so used to not having any I don't know, but I don't do well with that population. Katie Clark 11:49 Well, we're glad that you chose to come to Augsburg. Timaka Wallace 11:52 I did, Augsburg. I just feel like when I came there, it was home. I don't know the feeling. Like I said, it's somewhere like you get off the plane. Every time I come home to Chicago. It's like I text everybody home sweet home. And I mean, that is like I'm home. Even as bad as they say, Chicago is still home. But when I showed up at Augsburg, it was something about my spirit rested the same way, is like, yeah, this is where you supposed to be. And I don't know any other way to explain it. But that's it. So I always knew whenever I went back to get my doctor degree, I'll go there. I'll never forget how Joyce treated me. She was always open to my truth. Because I just said, you know, I just feel like the people over there, their white, their privilege they don't understand and all that and, and me and Joyce. I mean, she understood this was way before George Floyd, you know, and it was so crazy. One of my original cohorts that I started with at MGH texted me when all this stuff started happening about, you know, having real conversations. His name was Jude Atom, and he was with me and he was from I think he's Cameroon. So he did the Family Nurse Practitioner track, and I did Psych. So you all start together, then you branch out to your specialty. So he texted me one day, he said, I'm looking at the news with all this talk about having a real conversation. He said to mark that he was before your time when I was in that program, because that's the stuff I say we need to have a conversation because you guys don't understand how you making me feel. So that was, that was a confirmation that I wasn't really being belligerent or tripping at the school, it was just more or less, I felt the systemic racism and oppression and marginalization every day, when I showed up for school. So that's how I end up at Augsburg. Katie Clark 13:56 Wonderful. Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relation to being engaged in the community or in regards to being able to create change in your institution? Timaka Wallace 14:11 Before I came to Augsburg, again, I went to Governor State University. And my bachelor's and my undergrad and my graduate degree was in addiction I minored in major in addiction studies. So when I got there, addiction studies it was like something new that everybody was trying to get into. And a lot of our counselors, a lot of our professors at Governors State are addiction studies, substance abuse counselors and licensed in that. So I just felt like that was what we were supposed to do. So what I ended up becoming I was nominated to be the Governor State University. I was the first president of the addiction studies club at Governors State University. Yes, I was nominated by the school and the department because I was very active, I'm very vocal. So we used to gather up, I get money from the school, we used to go to the state, and disrupt the meetings when he's making laws about the law. You know, I guess I'm a little trouble, we'll make it but it's okay. But it's good trouble. I'm a fan of John Lewis, I always get in good trouble. So we will take a bus ride to the state capitol. And we will go in there and we would pull out the senators of Illinois at the time, I need you to talk to you I need this law to be changed on the the premise of addictions because the patients are not being seen or the you know, the -4- population, they don't get a really a second chance with this law being in place that law, and that was under Professor Jim Golding. He was the professor but then he pulled me, because that's how I got nominated. Jane was like, we need Timaka, because she's really good. So I was the president, for maybe even after I graduated, I was the president and I had to move to Boston, of course, they had to pick someone else. But I did. I did become the first president of the social studies club. And we did stuff like that. We also started the recovery walk, as well. Before for people with recovery, because we have all these galas about and all these months for cancer, HIV, we'd have nurses week, this week, you know, we have mental health Mondays this month in May we have all that. But you very seldom hear anybody applaud or reward anyone in recovery. And I think that's a prop. I don't care if you two days, and you didn't use that's the day to celebrate. And I think oftentimes people can't stay off because we're looking for this long journey, when it was what additional study, we have to meet them where they are. And if it's two days, three days, we need to have a day a month that we celebrate. So Governor says we created the recovery wall, where you could come and walk. And it's not about if you get six years or six, you know, six minutes, just come that day. So we started the recovery, I helped Jim Voting start the recovery wall. And I was always on the Board of Governors, stay tuned for addiction studies, I was on the board. So I did a lot of very active there until I had to move here. And of course, that change, but even when I'm going back and I I'm back and I'm getting a little stable, I'll sign up again, but I'm just not the type of person that likes to have my foot halfway in. I'm all the way in with something is no, there's no gray with me. I'm sorry, it's either black or white. So it's like I'm not ready to go because I'm I got some other things I'm trying to do right now we're here in Boston wrap up this. So I've always stood in the gap for addiction studies and the mental health population and I guess, any vulnerable population because you're my patient, he (Carlos) was a quadriplegic, and I still stand in the gap for Carlos so much while he was alive, that, you know, they just know like, you better call Timaka before you do anything. So I'm just gonna like really be an advocate for someone if I'm dealing with the situation. So that's how I started my advocacy at Governors in addictions thing, and then they also end up inducting me into the national something Governors State, I was inducted the first course of allied healthcare professional, I was inducted to a governor State University. You can Google it like if you Google it, it'll come up with my picture and stuff. So yeah, I love Governor State Governor State was more freeing too and I like working with the addiction in any vulnerable, mostly vulnerable population with mental health and addictions. I just really thrive there. Because I think so many so many of those people from my history from my past are suffering with that mental health, some kind of addiction. And it speaks to me because I have a lot of friends even though I'm here. All my friends and turn out like me somebody else, but that's okay. They're still my friends. And I'm not gonna let you mistreat them. Because, you know, you some people look at me and say, Well, you made it and why she didn't do what you did. And I just I don't like that, because we grew up in the same building. But every door when you close the door is a different story behind every door. So you can't say, make me the Ida B. Wells girl, when you don't understand that it's a story behind every door that closes in those project builds. So I don't, I don't like to be, you know, listed like, Well, why can they do what you did? We still had different circumstances when the doors closed at our apartments. So that needs to be taken in consideration. Katie Clark 19:45 So I'm wondering, has your view as a nurse changed at all since you've been at Augsburg or is it kind of always been the same? -5- Timaka Wallace 19:57 I first of all, I didn't even know I was citizen nurse. I figured that out since I been at Augsburg. And I also figured out, that's with you Katie, I'm citizen nurse, and I also figured out I'm just a transcultural nurse as well, you know, I don't have any problem advocating for anybody in the BIPOC community. I'm just so much that. And yeah, I didn't know anything about citizen nursing to you told me and I was like, well, damn, I think I'm a citizen nurse too, you know, and I didn't, I don't think we have enough information about that. I don't even think people know, I never heard of that until I got to Augsburg. So I do know that I am a citizen nurse. When I took your course Making Room at the Table, that is one of my favorite courses I have taken. I just told Deb, she just came in at number two with this epidemiology this semester in biocultural epidemiology, that's number two, I had to be honest, I said Deb this is number two, you still hold number one. I think that changed me I think we are. You know, one thing about this program, I really, really appreciate is about taking the person out of the expert role. And I think for me, you know, all the professional training you got, it's almost like the nurse and the doctor, the nurses, the angel and the doctors to god, we're like, do what we say do and this and that. And what we're learning what I know for sure now is we're not the expert for someone else's care. And we're not the expert for someone else's culture. I think it's so important to learn, like how people heal in their culture to really get them well. In my opinion, on the spirit, on a holistic level, like spiritually, mentally and physically, you have to take those things into consideration. So Augsburg really has validated, you know, a lot of things about how I feel, but also, it also has informed me and made me more knowledgeable, to be able to have extra tools now, to fight for the vulnerable populations as being a citizen, as being a transcultural nurse or as or leader or just a follower. I'm okay with all those roles. You know, I'm good at what I'm good at. But like, I don't have a problem saying that today. I'm a student here. Even after I get my doctorate degree, I'm still okay with showing up. And knowing that I should play the role that's requested of me, you know, even as Dr. Timaka S. Wallace. I just believe that. And Augsburg really those courses, citizen nurse, and Making Room at the Table and biocultural epidemiology. Those speak so much to that. And I think it's relevant to be a great, you know, nurse, to help someone heal. Katie Clark 22:52 You've answered a couple of the questions that were coming here. But I'm wondering, one of the goals of this project is to help people who don't teach about citizen professionalism, or the citizen nurse or civic engagement in their institutions, about what is the best pedagogical way or method? So how do we best teach these things? So was there an experience that you had in class that really helped you gain understanding into what the role of the citizen nurse was? Or was it more reading about it? Like what spoke to you most as far as being able to learn about some of these concepts which basically are already instilled in the discipline, but we're not naming them right. Timaka Wallace 23:42 I think when you had your class and you showed us the videos of things like the little girl, Rosa, I'll never forget Rosa. Rosa reminds me and me, but she was in the video and like, again, they lived in a project, anything that lives in the projects, Katie, I'm telling you, it resonates with me, because, you know that, you know, I tell people all the time, they make me mad, like, everybody loves to come research kids in the project, no matter what city, state, they love it. It's always like we went to the kids and you know, that's fine, but nobody ever comes back and figure out what's what you narrated it was our truth. Because after the time, it's not the truth, because nobody comes back to see whatever -6- happened to those children. You know, from that project, everybody doesn't turn out to be even if we start back. So say for me, I was a teen mom, I started off bad, that would be a type feeling. You know, like she started out as a teen mom. Okay. That was one obstacle that I beat. I never was into drugs, was in jail. So it's like, do you come back and check on people and the narratives that you create, I think is important about that. I think when you show me Rosa, and how she was just this little girl that thrived and how that school was right across the street, but didn't accept any people, then how you also show me, the boy that lived he was rich that lived in the building. And the poor people live beneath him and he killed himself. Because again, I think it's something about community in those buildings that everybody sticks together that everybody are, knows who they are, because it's based on having nothing. So you, you know, you can dress up all you want, but you are who you are, and you know who you are, versus someone being rich. Sometimes you never get to figure out who you are, because you was born into this, this life, that you have all these things. So sometimes it can get twisted. And he committed suicide because it was still like a hole in his soul somewhere that he couldn't figure out him without the money, like who will I really be without this money if I'm born in incident. So I think it's when I seen all those videos, and those things resonated with me, I think that's how we need to start teaching things like given visuals and stuff, giving people things to look at and compare and understand that like those little documentary projects that the girl did with the kids across the 35 feet, I thought that was phenomenal. But that happens all the time. And we're not aware of the disconnect. So close, but so far. So I think that's how institutions we need to get out of this formal way - of this is the syllabus, this is the rulebook. And this is a I don't think that works very well, because nothing is really changing. But if you give someone something to look at some real concrete stories, like the girl that made the documentary, 35 feet or six feet away, I forget the name of it, but I thought that was so real. And so and it changed a lot of kids' perspective in the that was rich that was getting dropped off. So it might didn't change the system, because again, they still been letting kids really in the school because the leadership is very much so still systemic, you know, it still has its racial systemics, I don't care what you say that's I can't call it for what it is, is systemic racism was still at the head. So even though they made the videos, the whoever, all the chair, all the board members to me still wasn't ready for change. A might have they saw it. But again, it's hard for people to be honest about what's really going on, especially if you have no idea of changing it or even thought about that you were doing something that that that's what I think how we should do things like you did, you showed us the stuff. I'll never forget some of those stories. And that's just what it is. Katie Clark 27:52 We're talking about civic skills and different concepts. What could have helped you better understand them more, or what might have been the most challenging thing to understand where we could have done better and helping give voice to what the skill or the concept was, if any? Timaka Wallace 28:17 I think for me, you did a great job. For me, personally, for me, you did a great job. Um, what we could do, is I wish that that course Making Room Seat at the Table can be something that other institutions could have. Again, instead of, I know we did have a rubric. And I know we did have a course syllabus and our objectives. I know that but it was something fluid about learning something in real-time in real contexts that, to me has so much more validity and how I can change as a human being and see things versus, you know, this is semester, this is how we're going to do things I think for me, Augsburg is -7- ahead of its game one day you will be recognized after so long how guys are doing this doctoral program, that how things are done here. To meet, think, to me is the way institutions should be doing things at this point, we need to get away from this model of, you know, this is how it goes. And this is you know, and all the rigor out of the writing, all that stuff. I mean, because you can get a degree if you follow all those things, but I think graduating of people that are effective and innovative and change and real people instead of worring about the you know, graduating from the institution, per se with the name with the GPA and the publishing and all that. I think that's so it's a thing of the past for me because we have so many things happening where I kind of it like going to the addiction house and you know, the jails and all those places, I call those the gray areas of life. But those are the real-life stories and places of our patients, in my opinion, you know? So if I published a book, or did some levels of graduate you graduate from Harvard versus graduated from Ausburg, I mean, am I really a change agent? Because of just those things, the GPA, the cum laude, and all that? Or do I meet people where they are, be more understanding, learn how to take care of them from their perspective, their culture, their way of life, whether it be substance use disorder, whether it be incarceration, stuff like that, I think we need more of those types of courses. Katie, to really make people well, that's just my opinion, because wellness is bigger than you have the degree and I'm the professor, it's more or less, can you understand the patient? Can you really understand the patient? So I think more courses should be built in a way in which we are really being able to deal with people that we usually don't do. And learn their lifestyle, learn their culture, learn how to meet them, learn how to build a rapport with them, learn how to heal them, in a holistic way. That's what I think. Katie Clark 31:30 So you talked a lot about how you already were working to change systems before you came to Augsburg. Do you feel since your time at Augsburg you feel better equipped, or do you feel about the same? Timaka Wallace 31:46 No, I feel better equipped, I'm gonna give you guys a lot of like homage I was already I'm gonna tell you. Like I had Carlos and my patients, like his friend or I said, he made me a kick ass nurse, he did because of his complicated medical history. And I had to become more diligent about learning this stuff. And I did and I became great at it because I did it for nine years. So I'm going to add on Augsburg I'm gonna give you guys to create a you make me kick ass kick ass times to with educational piece, that, you know, I can be just, I can learn a lot of stuff. And I can translate it to and teach it to a lot of people just by talking to it, not I don't need to I don't need a syllabus. I don't need a objective list. I don't need the rubric. I just think sometimes I show up. I'm talking to people. And if you don't we just be very interested like I work here nights in Boston at this place. And I look up at night, I'm having this discussion with these nurses or CNAs all the time. They're like, Oh, my God, you know, you can't do and I'm like, that's not, how am I beat? We're just talking, you know, but I guess what I try to give away and stuff becomes off deep to some people when this just to me, I'm just doing the right thing. Like, this is what I had to google CNAs trying to go to nursing school. Everybody's like, we're gonna go here because this fast and you don't have to do this. And I was giving them a lecture like nothing's fast. Let's be clear here. Let's let's not do the fast thing. It's nothing fast. And you know, so stuff like that is just like me being who I am. And taking things that I've learned from Augsburg, from my patient, Carlos, I think I just share it with the world and it comes easy for me. So I think psych, that was like another place when -8- I got there. I was like, okay, this is where I'm supposed to be in the psychiatric field. So I just think I'm just I just think, yeah, Augsburg definitely I'm gonna give you kudos for making me better at what I do with more tools. And I think I'll be I think I've been garnered the doctor. Finally, I ended up getting it somehow. But I think after I get it, I mean, it'll change my name far as like, I have to doctorate, but they won't change me. It'll just make me better. Better, I guess, in such a way it makes you the expert on them, but I'm not. It just makes me better at doing what I do. Let's all which is meeting people where they are. Katie Clark 34:20 That's wonderful. You think that there's a better way we could integrate the concept of the citizen nurse into assignments that would better help you engage in that work, then how we have it set up now? Timaka Wallace 34:37 Hmm, I think, you can kind of thread that in every little course. I think you could do that. I definitely think you can do every little course should have a little bit of citizenship nursing in it. Because I think Katie, nobody knows about that. Because I did like I'm very - I like to read a lot of stuff and I stayed grounded with all the news. Since stuff as much as possible, I had never heard of that. So I think with every little course, maybe it's okay to just put a little bit of that in there. And then I mean, you still do your course but all while their at Augsburg? I think citizenship nursing citizen nurse should come up some type of way, every time. So it can be it can it can it can galvanize its way and you know, start to be more recognize, instead of waiting, just a little bit here a little bit sprinkle and then you give the course and then after do a big course just every little, you know, course have a little bit of that. I think that'd be great. That'd be like a reinforcement of it every time that you leave this place to leave Augsburg. Katie Clark 35:46 Is there anything that you wish you had learned at Augsburg that you haven't yet? Timaka Wallace 35:53 No, I'm still learning, I just, you know, I still have a couple of great courses to, to finish. But every semester I'm excited even though I'm worn down. I'm always excited to know what's next here. Like I, I can truly say, I've been happy since I started. I really been happy here since I started. So I've never missed a class or nothing. Like even if I'm sick, I'll be like, I'm logging on, I feel better after it's over. You know. So that's, that's the good thing about being here at this program. I am just always eager to be here no matter what. I try to be here. And I'm always learning something. So I think it's more to come. You know, I think it's more to come. So I don't, I don't have any regrets or anything or thinking that you guys haven't been the best that you have been; you have been phenomenally great. Great. You know, this has been a great program for me, but couldn't have picked a better program.Thank you. Okay, so two more questions. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constant changing landscape of healthcare. It definitely has changed. Because it has changed nursing totally, you know, all within itself, the constant change of it every day, as it still was two or three years out and still continue to change me. I don't know if I'm on I don't first be in and make decisions. I'm not on that kind of platform. Like I haven't gained my seat at the table yet, Katie to be able to, to say how I feel, I mean, this interview, maybe it's helping me say how I feel. But I haven't been able to get that opportunity outside of class, -9- you know, all our classes with the cohort I'm in, I'm in the best cohort in the world. We are so different. But we're so alike for us on purpose together, that this couldn't it's like I don't even know how this happened. But I did. So I think we talk about a lot of things amongst each other. But I don't think I have the platform, if it's outside of Augsburg to really, you know, have a lot to say, I don't know if that happened in the future. But I just know nursing in general has changed just in so many ways, just so just like for me, I was a psych NP candidate, and usually, we cannot do telehealth unless you had to come to the school or to the hospital. And it has to be on an encrypted, you know, thing get in and out. But of course, that changed with pandemic. I can tell I have now off my computer right here right now. It doesn't have to be all the stipulations, and all is that the third, even with the license thing, you can do a lot of stuff. They doing a lot of compact licenses now that you couldn't do it was hard to get. It's not like that anymore. So I think it changed because how are they going to see the people because now we can't go into hospitals. We can't go outside. So I think it did change. Even at the end I was still in school. I graduated in May 2020 so it hit right when the semesters we are all about to graduate. So it we saw the change, like because I was in it. And at that point, I did again the gray areas of life, at the at the end of my journey. I did my psychotherapy at the hospice house. Nobody wanted to go, so I got everything nobody wanted to do. I did like the hospitals the homeless shelter the jail, I did all those places. Because I when I thought about it, like I felt like why wouldn't anybody needs some psychotherapy on death and dying? And I went and it was a phenomenal experience just to meet somebody that, you know, they say they have less than six months to live and you know, and then you know, I get to be with them a couple of weeks. Sometimes they stay still live longer and stuff like that they stay there, some people will stand there, some people went home and just made a pit stop there. So I just think with that alone, they said they had never had any psych np come to a hospice house. And I just thought how crazy that is to get the news. And even with that Katie, we were given news over a computer where we would give the news about death and dying and person. COVID hit and we had nothing else to go by. So it started to wear on me and the staff, because it was like, I tell you, all the results came back, everything metastasized with this prognosis, you got two months to live, I'm on a computer, you're crying, I'm crying we all because that's something we do in person. And, you know, make hugs. And you know, so it changed me, you know, and then I got cold one day not call us and the body getting cold. But I looked up I was at the hospitals house COVID, hit everything shut down. We have people in here dying. We have people now scared to come. And then we have all these protocols lined up because of the COVID. I looked up I was I started like having a mental thing happened to me because I was started being there were people dying on with me that I didn't even know. So that was just like, wow, you know, how does this happen? So it did, it changed a lot. And at the point like that I was at the hospice house. And it was all my colleagues, one of them had to really take off because she just said it's just not right for us to deliver this kind of news to people. But we had no other choice and had nothing else to do. So we had the people in there dying then now we have people scared to come see them because they didn't want them to die faster. And then we have people dying with strangers. So it was a very, very complex time for me. And I just started to also start it started to wear on me too, because it was like, wow., wow, like what do we do? But our hands were tied? So yeah, I think it changed nursing overall, and so many, so many ways. And death and dying were away. Definitely. Definitely. Oh, that's what I experience. Katie Clark 42:32 Thank you. And is there anything that you would like to share with us that I didn't ask? The final? - 10 - Timaka Wallace 42:40 Yeah, you should ask me like, no, I think like my journey, like after I get my doctorate degree, I think I'm supposed to be a teacher or something. I do. So maybe you could ask me like, What are you gonna do after I don't know, I got to Augsburg and I think I'm supposed to be a teacher. Like, I've never thought about being a professor ever, ever. So it's like I got here. And it's just like, maybe when I did the I did the dismantling white supremacy as a co-leader with Dr. Frebor, Kaija. So I was honored to do that work and be the co-leader. But at that point, I just think I was like maybe I'm supposed to be a teacher someday or something because that was a really, it was a great course. But it was also hard too and that was another thing that I think, you know, we in this time, let's have a real conversation. I don't know why people think real conversations are easy. They're never so to have that course, even though it was so it's so necessary to have that course. I think nobody understood the the emotions that can be brought up or who you are, what part you played in it, you know, even if it's not per se you personally but just as a race, you know, I think that's when I felt like well, well wow. Maybe I need to be a teacher because I was able to explain things to the class, and not even knocking Dr. Freborg, but it's like you i It was hard for me to see and just being transparent a white person's teacher dismantling white supremacy course. I think that was so like, I thought that was a good idea. But when we got into it, I just was like, I don't think this is going to work. I didn't not say it's gonna work. But I don't think that was the best because a white person to me can't teach dismantling white supremacy, because you don't even know what it's like to be oppressed in the way I do. So it's like when we had the course. She was the leader and I was co-leader but he kind of change on his own because she couldn't teach you anything about being black because she wasn't. So at that point, I figured out that maybe I was going to be a teacher, even if it's just what a course is something about like I had just seen Miss Diane graduate, Davis, and she was on one of my students in the course and she had no idea like she had just found out she's racist that one day, you know, everybody wants to be, it was so much trauma, but I didn't feel I didn't feel the way that Dr. Freborg felt because it's like, this is a normal reaction. You know, I didn't need to have her in the zoom by herself. I was like, I'm not doing like so I just think when I did that, and I met Diane and I met so many other great students but I remember Diane particularly because you know, Diane even thank you, she's Timaka if ever teach any classes anywhere, I'm gonna find you and take them because it was some way of me delivering the information did make you feel hostile, even though I was hurt. I still know how to deal with it and not make you feel hostile about it or not make you feel bad. So something about a gift from me being poor that I have had to do this all my life that it likes comes naturally. So I think something like a course like that, or something I'm good at. I'm good at that. So that's something I didn't know that I probably was interested in until you guys allowed me to be on that course. So that's one thing I'm gonna say. I will. Thank you guys wherever I end up being, maybe at Augsburg, because I think since I was birth here, you guys need to use me to your best advantage. Yeah, so, and that definitely questions nothing. I think I probably would like you to ask me that. I didn't know that I found out while I was here. Katie Clark 46:55 Well, I'm glad I asked that question. Timaka Wallace 46:59 Right. Yeah, well, so. That's it. - 11 - Katie Clark 47:03 That concludes our interview. So thank you for your time. Timaka Wallace 47:08 Thank you for having me. And I appreciate being a candidate for this. And I hope that I could be some type of help to someone in a minute way or even in a big way, but even if it's in a small way, I'm cool with that, you know, so thank you so much, Katie. Thank you. - 12 -
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Tom Clawson, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Tom Clawson Tue, 5/10 12:16PM 24:39 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned, understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital SPEAKERS Tom Clawson, Elaine Esch...
Show more Oral History with Tom Clawson Tue, 5/10 12:16PM 24:39 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned, understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital SPEAKERS Tom Clawson, Elaine Eschenbacher E Elaine Eschenbacher 00:05 Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher and I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? T Tom Clawson 00:27 Yeah, my name is Tom Clawson. I am a student at Augsburg University going through their family nurse practitioner DNP track. And currently I work at Regions Hospital and St. Paul in their ICU. I've been there for about three years now in ICU and then two years previously in a observation unit also at Regions. E Elaine Eschenbacher 00:50 Great, thank you. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and having a recording of the interview stored at Augsburg University where it could be made available to the public. T Tom Clawson 01:03 Yes, I consent. Great, E Elaine Eschenbacher 01:04 Thank you. So to start out, could you tell me a little bit about your education background and what your current currently studying at Augsburg T Tom Clawson 01:14 My education background in my undergrad I got my bachelor's in nursing science at North Dakota State University. And then throughout working, I had a lot of interactions with the public communities of underserved populations, and really felt a passion for working with people experiencing homelessness. People from low income communities and looking through different DNP programs, I saw that Augsburg really has a focus on helping underserved communities in so Augsburg really spoke to me. And so I applied got in and my first two years so far have just been extremely eye opening a lot of the first or a lot of the classes in the first two years really focused on getting out in the community, helping to identify different ways to work with people from various diverse backgrounds, helping to switch from kind of the professional mindset more to just being a person listening to another person, and really taking a step back and listening to what our patients have to tell us and listening to what kind of situations and what kind of events happen in these patients lives to put them in the situation that they are now. And so it's really helped to kind of shift from maybe a traditional like blaming mindset to more about understanding and identifying and empathizing with patients and empathizing with people in our community. E Elaine Eschenbacher 02:57 Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged in community or in relationship to being able to create change in institutions? T Tom Clawson 03:10 Before coming to Augsburg, I was working just as a floor nurse. I was working overnights and so I didn't feel that I had a huge impact in the unit politics, I didn't feel like I had a huge impact in the community. I was kind of isolated to my own little bubble isolated, my own little unit. Showed up at work, did what I needed to do, and felt like that's kind of where nursing ended. And I felt like that's kind of where my scope ended. Whereas coming to Augsburg, we are constantly having discussions about ways to improve the community a ways to get involved. And identifying that nursing isn't just about passing meds and changing bandages. It's about connecting with your patients, connecting with your community, stepping outside of your comfort zone and getting involved to help provide resources help provide safe areas, helping to provide safe spaces for people in the communities to come and share their struggles and be heard and be listened to and be understood by individuals who can offer help and offer assistance and just offer counseling. And so experts really helped to open up my scope and really helped me to understand that there's a lot more to nursing than just going to a hospital or clinic putting in your eight or 12 hours and heading home. E Elaine Eschenbacher 04:43 So some of these questions overlap a little bit I can tell you kind of already answered my next one, but I'll ask it anyway in case something new comes to mind. Has your view of the role of a nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so how? T Tom Clawson 04:58 My view as the role of a nurse has definitely changed, Augsburg has helped me realize that, again, nursing is about getting involved in your community and nursing is about offering support in ways that aren't necessarily talked about in textbooks and ways that aren't necessarily taught as your core foundational knowledge. Being a nurse is taking the resource that you have in the expertise that you have and just offering it in formal as well as informal settings. E Elaine Eschenbacher 05:39 When you say formal and informal what comes to mind. T Tom Clawson 05:42 When I say formal settings, I guess I think of it more as like a clinical setting in a hospital setting. And then informal setting, the Health Commons is it's been there for years, it's a formal place that people experiencing homelessness can come and seek care. But I feel like a big part of it is just trying to make it more personable and make it more community friendly. And so I feel like taking away big titles taken away big signs saying help health care offered here, it really takes helps to bridge a gap. And homeless populations in homeless communities, there's a lot of mistrust, because I'm sure that many if not all of them have had situations in healthcare where they go to a clinic, they go to a hospital, they feel judged, they feel blamed for their situation, they don't feel like they can relate to the nurses, the healthcare staff there. And so the Health Commons really excels at kind of breaking down those walls and really changing healthcare from a formal hospital clinic setting to a community space where patients can come they can ask for help, they can ask for resources, and coming from people who they interact with on a weekly basis, they have learned to trust us and they've learned to trust the resources that we have to offer. And so although we may offer resources or consults go to different medical facilities, because it's coming from someplace that they trust, they'd be more apt to going. And so at the Health Commons, we're very much I'd very much a bridge and very much a way to connect people experience homelessness with resources that they desperately need. E Elaine Eschenbacher 07:52 In your classes at Augsburg, have you had the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills have they been discussed, and if so, which ones stand out in your memory T Tom Clawson 08:08 The biggest one that stands out is the citizen nurse, it's, again, I don't need to be in a hospital setting to be able to offer resources offer help. And so I've really taken that, that idea to heart and use it to kind of step out of my comfort zone. And even at work when a family member starts asking me about or starts sharing difficulties that they're having, and starts sharing challenges that they need help working through. I'll step out of my clinical role more and help kind of be that emotional support that they need. And I it just helps me to understand that there's a lot more than I can do for not only patients but for their families for really anyone, anyone that needs help, and anyone who asks for help. E Elaine Eschenbacher 09:11 Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your educational experience at Augsburg? T Tom Clawson 09:22 I feel like I'm better equipped to lead change. I feel like I just haven't had the opportunity to get involved in different groups for change at the hospital. With the past couple of years with COVID it's been extremely stressful and then with school, it's hard to balance and create any free time just to maintain my own sanity, let alone stepping up and trying to create change in the hospital and in different healthcare settings. Which Augsburg I feel like has offered me a lot of resources and a lot of valuable knowledge that I can use to enact change. It's just until graduation, I don't know if I have the time or the just the time to commit to creating great change. E Elaine Eschenbacher 10:20 Can you tell me about this is again, thinking about your your time at Augsburg in the classroom or in your coursework, which experiences that you've had in the classroom and your coursework? What kind of pedagogies helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen professional or citizen nurse. T Tom Clawson 10:49 Some of the experience that really stood out to me is, and one of Katie's classes, we were able to go to Breaking Free, which is a shelter for women who have been working, living in the life of prostitution for X amount of years, and they need resources, they need help, they need support to get out of it. And so the woman at the house that spoke to us, she worked in that life for I think she said 15 or 20 years. And so she really understands what these women are going through. And she understands that it's not just, "it's easy to just leave your abuser just step away," it's she really broke it down to these women are taken, their social networks are broken down, their support networks are all cut, they have nowhere to go except for the people abusing them. And so it really opened my eyes. And I kind of really understood that people aren't necessarily product of their choices, it's people are a product of their environments, and the situations that happen around them. And so no matter how much these women sometimes want to get out of this out of work into prostitution, they just don't have the resources, they don't have the ability to get out of it. And so that was one experience. But anyone in a less than desirable circumstance definitely has had experiences that put them in that position. And it's not necessarily their fault. And if they're coming to me asking for help, I'm going to do whatever I can to help get them the support that they need to help them create a better life for themselves. E Elaine Eschenbacher 12:48 So how did that experience at Breaking Free help illustrate citizen nurse for you? T Tom Clawson 13:01 It really helped me understand that, nursing is more than just clinical thinking. It's nursing is all about getting involved in your community and helping to create a better community helping to offer resources and even creating resources for networks of people who could use it. E Elaine Eschenbacher 13:30 Nice, thank you. Thinking again, about your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped you better understand civic skills or some of the concepts we've been talking about in this interview? And which concepts or issues were most challenging to grasp? T Tom Clawson 14:09 I feel like enacting policy is such an ethereal concept that we we learned skills, we learn how to we learned the basic information that we should have in creating good policies and creating policies that really think about the individuals being affected by them. But I feel like we haven't really had a lot of experiences in writing policies or getting involved. And I feel like if for certain classes if we had the ability to write up mock policies or have discussions for or against policies, and if we were able to really have that dialogue and have that hands on tangible experience. I feel like that would have been it certainly valuable in creating change in the future. E Elaine Eschenbacher 15:02 Yeah, thanks. Have you taken politics of healthcare yet? T Tom Clawson 15:09 Yes. And when we were taking that class, that was when the murder of George Floyd happened. And so a lot of our discussions were targeted at the systematic or systemic racism that's happening. And so we really delve deep into the history of it. And we delve deep into how we got to be where we are today. And so that I feel like was extremely important to discuss and learn about, whereas moving forward, I feel like we just didn't have enough time in the class to talk about how to change policies. And so the class was incredibly valuable. It's just, I feel like some of the other classes should elaborate and build upon, and that creating policy and creating policies and creating change shouldn't be restricted to just one class, and it should be something continually touched upon. E Elaine Eschenbacher 16:19 Did any of the course concepts like the ones we're talking about? Have they impacted your current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing? T Tom Clawson 16:31 Trying to think of any specific formal examples that I have. I don't know how many formal examples I have. But I know that I've definitely had patients come in with specific backgrounds. I know that there's been a lot of patients of native backgrounds who have come in with heavy alcohol use that's gotten worse over the past year or two in COVID. And through class at Augsburg, we learned how the generational trauma has led to drug and alcohol abuse to cope with traumas of the past, and the traumas of being forced off their lands and forced into reservations. And so the compilation of all that trauma is just being expressed now today. And so when patients of native backgrounds come in, with alcohol withdrawal with a cirrhosis from drinking, end stage liver disease, pancreatitis, I feel like I used to blame these patients and say like, it's not that hard, just don't drink. But now I feel like I have a lot more empathy for everything that they've gone through everything that they and their families have experienced over the past two, 300 years. And I feel like I just understand these patients a lot more, and I tend to listen to them a lot more and understand where they're coming from, and I can understand the challenges that they're facing every day. E Elaine Eschenbacher 18:26 Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? T Tom Clawson 18:39 I feel like a lot of the experiences that have offered the most value to me were the hands on experiences getting out into the community. I know that it's been, it's been hard, because a lot of these places that Augsburg used to go to has no longer allowed students just because infection risk COVID and everything. And I think Katie has been the only instructor who is really pushed and been able to reopen those doors and reopen those experiences. And so every time that we've been able to get on the community and see different populations and see different resources and see what these resources mean for this population, it really helps me understand that we need to continue to do that offer taxpayer dollars to help keep these resources open and help keep these facilities open for people who desperately need it. And so, previously, before attending Augsburg I knew that free housing and community housing was important, but I didn't quite understand to what extent it's to what extent it can change the lives of the people affected by it. E Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02 When you see it, then you understand. Now I recognize you're about halfway through your program. But is there anything that you wished you'd learned at Augsburg, but you haven't yet? T Tom Clawson 20:29 I'm excited to learn all the clinical hands on skills. But, again, I'll go back to saying, I wish that I learned more about how to write policy, how to change policy and how to facilitate conversations and get the ball rolling and really get things moving. Because I understand that changing policy, creating change isn't about making grand large Roe versus Wade style changes. It's about starting conversations and getting the ball rolling. It's about just kind of placing those seeds and getting people to think about certain situations. I just wish that we had more experience and taking it to the next level and taking further steps to enact change. E Elaine Eschenbacher 21:22 So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? T Tom Clawson 21:36 I feel like the pandemic's kind of make me made me question how the how the public and how upper management sees nurses and how they value nurses. Because throughout the pandemic, there were many facilities that didn't have masks, gloves, anything upper management was working from home, or if they didn't have any resources set up just wasn't working at all, but still getting paid fully. Whereas a bunch of nurses were getting furloughed, laid off. Community opinion at the start of the pandemic, nurses were heroes. And then as soon as we started advocating for vaccines, nurses were now evil, the bad guys. Nurses didn't know what we're talking about. And we're just trying to create COVID and spread lies and spread fear. And so it's really kind of shook my understanding of how the public views nurses, and it's kind of maybe a question, does the public still view nurses as important? E Elaine Eschenbacher 22:51 Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly changing landscape of healthcare, could be big or small? T Tom Clawson 23:02 Think so, at work, my manager has been phenomenal in being transparent about what resources we have things that she's doing. The way that she's stepping up and trying to advocate for everyone on our unit. And so I feel like I've always been able to talk to my manager, ask for things. And for the most part, it's, yep, we can make that happen. Whether it's getting new supplies on the floor, whether it's changing how we do things, I feel like I've had a voice in that respect. And I understand that that's just a very small piece of it. It's just very unit specific. But as far as making big systemic changes to nursing, I don't really know how much my voice has been heard or how much change I have outside of my specific floor at work. E Elaine Eschenbacher 24:02 That's the end of my formal questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that I didn't ask? T Tom Clawson 24:07 I don't. I don't think so. E Elaine Eschenbacher 24:15 Great. Well, I really appreciate that you took the time and to hearing your insight and your experience at Augsburg and in your profession. It's been great talking with you.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History with Ana Cox, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Anna Cox (2022) Fri, 5/13 12:44PM 32:31 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills, important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections SPEAKERS K...
Show more Oral History with Anna Cox (2022) Fri, 5/13 12:44PM 32:31 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills, important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections SPEAKERS Katie Clark, Anna Cox Katie Clark 00:02 All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of citizen professional in higher ed. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the Augsburg health commons. Can you please introduce yourself for the recording? A Anna Cox 00:23 Yeah. My name is Ana Cox. I use she/they pronouns. I am a recent graduate of Augsburg. Katie Clark 00:29 Great. And so before we continue, I just want to confirm that you give consent to being interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public? A Anna Cox 00:41 Yes, I consent. Katie Clark 00:42 Great. So when did you graduate from Augsburg University? A Anna Cox 00:49 So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently. So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently. Katie Clark 00:59 Great. Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied when you were at Augsburg? A Anna Cox 01:08 Yeah, so I ended up graduating with a degree in Gender, Sexuality and Women's Studies and with a minor in social welfare. The social social welfare part is social work. But I only had it as a minor. I didn't complete the major. But that's what I graduated with. It kind of had a journey to get there. But ended up with women's study. Katie Clark 01:32 Excellent. And why did you choose to come to Augsburg? A Anna Cox 01:36 So my grandma actually went here when she was in college, which was about 70 years ago. And I I'm actually her last grandkid, I'm the only grandkid that went to her alma mater. So she's very, she's very excited. And one of the reasons that I really looked into Augsburg was we were familiar with the school because of her. She had a wonderful experience. But I also really wanted to go to a school that was diverse. That was in the cities that was small liberal arts. And Augsburg really had kind of all the boxes checked for me. And then when I actually did my tour, it just felt so different from the other schools that I had visited. So that's really what brought me here. Katie Clark 02:33 So thinking back at your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of the citizen professional civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills, discuss in your classes, or any programs that you are involved with? A Anna Cox 02:50 So I was really lucky that my first year. I got really quickly engaged with leadership. I worked in the Sabo Center through the Environmental Stewardship Committee, and worked there for both my first and sophomore year, um, through specifically that program. Later, I had joined Sabo through lead fellows. But we had talked a lot about being civically engaged, and kind of growing our leadership skills and in that sense, and a lot of that came from my internship with the Sabo Center. I haven't heard it in my classes. But my first a sophomore year, I was a bio major, and then I switched to undecided. And so I wasn't too surprised that I wasn't hearing civically engaged things in those classes. But I would say that when I moved into Women's Studies and Social Work, it became more of a relevant topic. But a lot of what I got was through being involved in Sabo, and all of the workshops that we had, and really what they taught us in that, but yeah. Katie Clark 04:15 Excellent. Where did you have your field placement for when you were in the Lead fellow role? A Anna Cox 04:22 So for my placement, I was at the Minnesota Youth Collective. So that's what I was doing. Katie Clark 04:29 Great. So which of the experiences, and some of these questions are a little redundant, but just trying to see if there's anything else you wanted to add, but what experiences if any standout as meaningful opportunities to learn integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged? A Anna Cox 04:49 All right, it froze up a little bit. Could you repeat that? Katie Clark 04:52 Yes, it did. I'm sorry. I don't know what's going on here. Let me make sure it's making sure my wifi was on the right thing,. Sorry about that. Okay. Okay, so what experiences, if any standout as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? And you kind of answered this. So it was, you know, it seems like maybe there was, you know, what was in your classes at the beginning, right was different. What you were learning and community engaged work until you switch? But yeah, was there anything that was really meaningful opportunities to kind of connect those two, if any? A Anna Cox 05:45 Yeah. I think that in a lot of my Social Work and Women's Studies courses, because we had a field placement attached, or we had an internship that was attached to our courses, that our experiences in our internship were really important. I would say that for my internship with the Minnesota Youth Collective, particularly around voting, voter education. And we just had a recent Minneapolis election around two really important topics, rent stabilization, and then the creation of the Department of Safety. And so because there was so much history and knowledge that we needed to know and let students know of, I think that was a really key one for me that really well was like, Okay, we're learning about being civically engaged. But also we had with the Department of Safety, we had the George Floyd event. And so it's just, there's so many things to learn, and so many things that are just beyond just talking about voter education, that you have to talk about history and like white supremacy and talk about a larger topic. And so because that connected to that, we talked about that in my courses of how, how are you culturally competent in your work? Or what are things historically, that you need to know. So when you are in your internship, you're just more aware and like, are better able to kind of work on your project? Katie Clark 07:41 That was really powerful. And I can't imagine what your experiences might have been, like, between the pandemic and the social unrest, and then thinking about your connections that you've had in the community, like, just wow. So, um, in what ways did civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership, if any, if you feel like it did, I guess it's kind of a loaded question. But do you feel I will reward that some of the experiences prepared you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership? A Anna Cox 08:24 Oh, yeah, absolutely. When I was working in the Sabo Center, I also was working as an orientation leader. And part of the orientation position was attending the LEAD fellows workshops, or the Sabo workshops. And they weren't required of us, some of them were, some of them weren't. But it was to our benefit that we would go to them. And a lot of them were around developing leadership skills, or learning how to organize or you know, things like that, that are just so staple skills for anyone. And even though maybe I wasn't interested in nonprofit work, that if you know, down the road, that I would be I have those skills and have that experience that I can draw from. But also it taught, it teaches you a lot about really working with other people who are different than you and being able to hone in on your own leadership style, but also learning how to work with people who are of a different leadership style than you are. And one of the things that I really found really helpful is that we were kind of allowed to make mistakes because we're in college, we're allowed to ask questions, we're allowed to make mistakes more than And, you know, we would if if it was a full time position, but because it was an internship or because we were doing these workshops, it we were allowed to kind of struggle with it, which is nice that we were able to get that experience beforehand and get those skills beforehand. So now that I know that I'm, it's like, okay, I don't have to go into a job and like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this, I already know how to. And so I really think of the workshops that I did the experiences that I had, as just really key important skills that I wouldn't have gotten anywhere else. Katie Clark 10:46 Okay, so have you been able to use and you've already kind of answered this your civic learning or community engagement experience, to affect decision making, or be an agent of change as a professional? A Anna Cox 10:59 Anna Cox 10:59 Yeah, as I'm looking into full time positions, or thinking about what my career goals are, a lot of that is thinking about, how do I use, you know, the skills that I have, in my own workplace. And like, especially when I was working in the Campus Life Office, we were student workers, but we were also known as paraprofessional student workers, that there was just an extra bar that was kind of the standard for us. And part of that was using the knowledge and skills from those workshops and implementing it into our work, because we worked so closely with incoming first years or first year students, or really younger students who wanted to be in leadership positions, that it was really important for us to know how to organize or how to advocate for students. Or, like, when I was in student government, really using those skills of how do you talk to people in a different power dynamic than you are? How do you advocate for things that you want, in a way that, like, is going to make an impact on campus and is not just, you know, like, some, you know, you're not just asking for something, but like, can really implement the change. And so those are kind of things that I've seen that I've been able to do in my work with student government in the Campus Life Office, kind of directly advocating for students, but also directly working with students. And like, being in relationship with them and knowing how to like navigate, kind of those spaces with them. Katie Clark 13:04 So this question isn't on the script, but just because rarely do I feel like students are so self aware, but also like, you're clearly an expert in civic engagement and civic skills, and really thinking about how to be political in all aspects of life. So given that I, this is one thing that I struggle with a lot, and I'm wondering your thoughts on it. But I find that a lot of times when we're teaching about this in classes, like you know, what you can do about issues you're seeing, and obviously, mine's mostly in healthcare and social justice. So health and health inequities, I find that students are quick to polarize, instead of try to find common ground, and I hear you almost talking about building that common ground, which I think we need more of. And so for you, is that something that you learned? Or is that something that you've just always kind of been? A person of, is just trying to kind of meet people where they're at and see where you can kind of agree to disagree or come together on something like, where would you say you learn that skill? A Anna Cox 14:24 I actually really attribute it to my Women's Studies degree, because I actually just recently wrote a paper about this, but I really try in the work that I do to have, like a feminist pedagogy. And part of like, as I'm reading feminist theories and feminist authors, one, I forgot who it is. But there's this feminist author that basically talks about how like we should be talking about our differences in order for us to, like, band together, that our differences are really important. And when we don't talk about them. It's, it's not making aware of the actual issues going on. And I think there's needs to be a good balance of talking about our differences, but also saying, We're super similar, or we're, you know, we have these similarities. And I think that's kind of where I was able to kind of gain that skill, because so much of the things that I've learned in the classroom are feminist theories. And so when I think about the work that I do, in, you know, my professional life, but also with leadership development, and with students, it's having that feminist pedagogy mindset. And really incorporating that into the work. But also, I think, something that I think we've kind of just I think a lot of students have really learned from just being at Augsburg is having a sense of being inclusive. And I think that that has really been fostered throughout my four years here, of who is at the table who's missing from the table. Okay, we're in this meeting. And we have this many white people at the table, or we have this many cisgendered people at the table. What does that mean for our team? And like, why are we? What is the demographic? What does it mean, and especially because when I was working in the Sabo Center, first, in the Environmental Stewardship Committee, we had a lot of talks about race, because environmental work is pretty, it's pretty white. And it's really white centered. And so we had a lot of conversations about identities about being inclusive and having more of an intersectional frame of the work we did. So I think those are really things that kind of impacted a lot of the way that I think about things now and how I work now. Katie Clark 17:18 Excellent. Um, so this question is a little dense, so I'll can say it again, if you need me to help more students ask for to be repeated. So what connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Professional, your vocation I know, that's an Augsburg term, and civic leadership. Oh, okay. You can take your time too. A Anna Cox 17:55 I think a kind of connection. I think is being intentional. That's what I would say is being intentional. I think I'm gonna go through all three to kind of make the connection, but I think being civically engaged, I think it can be really easy to fall into the trap of being performative. And just getting something done to just do it and to show it off, but not actually being thoughtful, and being intentional with what you're doing. And I saw that really in, like student government, it's really, it can be really energizing and really exciting to you know, whip out all of these letters to the President, I, I'm forgetting what the name is right now, but are all of these projects, but if they don't mean anything, when they actually aren't sustainable, or that they don't actually make a change? And so I think really being intentional. I think with vocation, I think that now because of the pandemic, really finding joy, and really finding my passion in my career is just something that has been always important to me, but I think now that the pandemic has, that we've been, you know, through the rough parts of the pandemic and kind of still through it, the I really had to think of, okay, what do I actually want to do? What am I passionate about? What am I going to wake up and be energized about? And be excited about? And so really being intentional with what I see for myself. And then I think, my professional development, kind of in the same sense of being intentional about how am I developing as a leader? How am I being a better colleague for my, for my peers? How are the things that I'm learning and reading important for the health of you know, my workspace, but also the relationships that I've made. So I think being intentional for all three of them, it's just really like sitting back for a little bit being reflective and thoughtful. It's just kind of a common thread that I've seen. Katie Clark 18:43 That was beautiful. Okay, so the next question is, do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't specifically use that term? If so, how do you describe that or explain that to others? A Anna Cox 21:39 I think one way that I kind of think about it is that I try to think of it as, like, being the person who's willing to ask the question. I think I had said this earlier, but like, who is at our table? Who's not at our table? And even though you might not use the title "civically blank", but having that, like, thought of who's at the table who's not? There was also this thing that I saw about the the tenets of white supremacy, and how people kind of live into that without knowing. And one of them is like, being defensive, or being really strict with time. And so I think even willing to go against those things, and to be in constantly anti-racist work, that even doing things like that are being civically engaged. And really being thoughtful of how do you show up to spaces? And how do you make space for other people? And so that's kind of how I think about it, of even you might not think of like, Oh, I'm specifically doing this, that, you know, the work that you're doing is, in that sense? Katie Clark 23:29 And so here is a question I have for you that I kind of struggle with is, I think oftentimes in our coursework, or in some of those workshops you were describing, we use the word citizen or civic professional. And I'm wondering your thoughts on if there is a better word that would resonate, especially with like your generation, because I feel like there's some pushback back on whether it feels too grandiose, like, oh, you know, I'm striving to be that, but I wouldn't say I am one or the language in itself. So do you have any, I guess, how do you react to the the terms itself itself? And do you have a suggestion for a better way to connect it to students, if any? A Anna Cox 24:30 I see two sides of it. I think there's one part if someone sat down and said, This is what civically or a civic profession looks like, or this is what this means. It's like, oh, okay, this makes sense. So, I think that a lot of times, a lot of these kind of big words are used at Augsburg and a lot of kind of buzzwords like when we say intersectionality or when we say inclusive or when we say diversity, what does that mean? And so I think it's the same thing of like, Okay, what does that mean? Like? What is? What's the specific meaning? And how would that be reflective of like a biology major or someone, you know, an education major? And so I think it's so tricky because like, it can be so broad yet so specific because of what you're, what you're studying or what your career goals are, or what your goals in life are. I'm not sure what word or phrase or label to use it. But I don't mind the Civic Professional. I think there just needs to be more awareness and education, but I'm not sure. I think if I had a little more time to think of something I could. Katie Clark 25:58 Yeah, no, no pressure, just wondering your thoughts on it. That's great. So there, this question is one kind of asking you, is there anything you wish you would have learned at Augsburg that you didn't? Are there experiences you wish you would have had to prepare for your future career? A Anna Cox 26:22 Oh, okay, this is not a bold statement, but I'm gonna have a bolder explanation. I have absolutely no regrets. I think I have learned everything that I could in the journey that I've had here at Augsburg and I think that outside of Augsburg, I think there's, of course, more learning to do. But I think that everything that I could get out of Augsburg, I could. But I say that, because I constantly said yes to things. When there is an opportunity, and I could fit into my schedule, I said, Yes. I challenged myself, I pushed myself out of my comfort zone. Like if I think of first year me, like if we met, it would be like looking at two different people. And every opportunity that I was given, I jumped on, and every connection that I could make, I made those connections. And I think when students say, Oh, I missing this, or I didn't have this opportunity it's because they didn't take it. And I'm really not trying to be too harsh or bold. But Augsburg has all of these amazing opportunities and connections. But it's on the responsibility of the student to take it. And with my own experience, I really made the most of the time that I had here. And I have absolutely no regrets. And I think I learned everything that I could have. And so that's really, that's my response. I really got the last drop out of the school for me. Katie Clark 28:08 That's right, I know there's gonna be people who are listening to this that are and I'm sure you've met Harry Boyte. But there are scholars that are authors and some of the same content as Harry and one of them in particular always wants to know, how do students who are like yourself who do throw themselves into these situations and push themselves to uncomfortable situations? What what drives you? What is that? Is that just who you innately are or, you know, how can we tap into that into other people? Or is that just something that you think is just part of your nature? A Anna Cox 28:47 I actually just recently said this in a past discussion, but I said, I am not me without the people who I surround myself with. I'm only me to an extent, you know, like, I'm great, you know, but I'm also great because of the people who I surround myself with that my community because it's so strong and so supportive and pushes me to do more, that I would not be me without them. In my first couple of years at Augsburg, I had to find my people, I had to find people who wanted to be engaged and who wanted to be pushed the same amount that I wanted to be, and I found those people eventually. And, you know, I think it's funny how we kind of make the joke that like, Oh, they're they're like the same leaders at Augsburg, you know, like they start out first year and then they always are the same senior year. And it's because we all have we all come in with, I want to make a change. I want to do more. I want to you know, Have a great college experience. And then we encourage each other and support each other. And then all of a sudden, we're doing these really big things at Augsburg. But I think it's because of who you meet and who you surround yourself with, if you're only surrounding yourself with people who want to focus on classes, and that is your goal. That is totally okay. But that was not something that I wanted for myself. And I was with people who were like minded, and who had the same values and goals that I did. Katie Clark 30:37 Excellent. Well, the last question is really, is there anything you wanted to add that I didn't ask you about? A Anna Cox 31:03 I think that the two most transformative experiences that I've had on campus was being involved in the Sabo Center and being involved in student government. Those were the two transformative places that has made me who I am now. And if I had not been involved in those two things, I would not be the leader that I am now. So I think that is just kind of where I want to leave it off. Katie Clark 31:29 And could you also conclude with telling us the award that you recently won at graduation? A Anna Cox 31:38 I got the Marina Christensen Justice Award , which honors a student at graduation who has been really involved in social justice things and advocating for students. It was, it was a little surprise that I got it and not because I don't think that I was not that I'm not worthy of it. It's just there's so many wonderful leaders here. And I think that any one of us could have gotten it. So it was really humbling that they had chosen me. And that was really exciting. Katie Clark 32:23 Great, well, thank you so much. So that concludes our interview. And I just want to thank you for your time.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022) Thu, 3/31 4:31PM 29:14 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic, learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities...
Show more Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022) Thu, 3/31 4:31PM 29:14 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic, learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities SPEAKERS Katie Clark, Barbara Sabino Pina Katie Clark 00:02 All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm an assistant professor of nursing. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? B Barbara Sabino Pina 00:22 My name is Barbara Sabino Pina, I use her pronouns, and I am a third year at Augsburg University, studying biochemistry with a minor in leadership studies. Katie Clark 00:35 Great. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public? B Barbara Sabino Pina 00:45 Yes, I consent. Katie Clark 00:46 Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg? B Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51 Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51 I would graduate hopefully in a year. So in spring of 2023. Katie Clark 00:57 Great. And so can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? You mentioned your majors, so kind of what you're currently studying, and maybe what you hope to do when you graduate. B Barbara Sabino Pina 01:13 I was born in Venezuela. So my first years of school having my native country in Venezuela. I graduated actually from high school there. But because the education system works differently in my country then here. I had to go through another year of high school here. So I graduated from Burnsville High School, after doing basically my last year here, and I decided to attend Augsburg University. I am currently a third year I'm studying biochemistry. And I also have a minor in leadership studies. And what I hope to do with this is that I, since I was really young I always enjoy medicine, and like, the biomedical field. So even though, you know, things can change, and my decisions also can change with time, at the moment, I want to be a physician scientist. So my plans are to apply for medical school on next cycle. And I mean, like, the cycle of 2023. So I hope what I want to do with this is that I really enjoy working on a lab. And I really enjoy going through the whole answer the question and tried to solve a problem with the research that is done. But I also like the patient interactions. I also like to talk with people, you know, having interactions with them, talking with them, understanding what's going on, what's the problem? Or how, in which ways can I use my, my skills or anything that I know to help them? And how can they also like, I can learn from them, and develop as well as an individual. So I think so far, that's the plan. Katie Clark 03:17 Being in the medical world myself, I think that that is much needed. So I'm excited to hear that. So just thinking about your time at Augsburg have the concepts of the citizen, professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills been discussed in your classes or programs that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember? B Barbara Sabino Pina 03:41 I would say a couple of them, not necessarily in my classes, because as I mentioned, I am biochemistry major. So a lot of times wouldn't really like we wouldn't mention those things, but because of my minor and because I decided to do a Leadership Studies minor. When I took LST 296,that was student development, leadership class, I did talk a little bit about what it means to be like a citizen and like what it means to have like different intersectionalities of identities. And so we kind of like talk a little bit of that, in the surface, I wouldn't be able to say that I like an expert, or like I understand completely the concepts. But I also have to say that I am part of the LEAD Fellows Program here at Augsburg. And so through that I did learn more about civic civic engagement and basically how to, like connect with the expert community, but also with the community around Augsburg. And basically what it means to like a create community and how to engage and how to organize, mobilize people. I think I did have a little bit of connection through that, but it's probably because of the decision that I made to get involved in the program that I decided to be part of. So yeah, That's kind of what I would say. Katie Clark 05:02 So what experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities, and you kind of answered this, but maybe ask it again and see if anything else comes up, to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning. B Barbara Sabino Pina 05:19 As I mentioned, yes, I mentioned a couple of those activities. I also would add, when I was a first year, I applied to be part of the Emerging Leaders Program here at Augsburg University. I think that was one of the best decisions that I made at the beginning, because I learned a lot about myself in that class. But I also got to meet a lot of people that kind of like I continued to have relationships with, through all these three years that I've been at Augsburg. And that connected me with all their staff members, when they actually one person that I met through the Emerging Leaders Program connected me with LaToya, which is basically the director manager for the LEAD Fellows that that's how I ended up applying for it. So I think the Emerging Leaders Programs was like the first door that I got to be like, the first that I enter, to get through all my other leadership opportunities are after that, I got to be an orientation leader, and then an AugSem leader, and then I got other positions that are expert, like student program assistant, and eventually the LEAD intern position. So I would say those are kind of like really meaningful positions that I had that so far. Katie Clark 06:33 So I guess for me, I'm wondering like being in the biology, or they might refer to STEM courses, is there a way that could that you envision things like civic engagement or civic skills could better be weaved in that curriculum? B Barbara Sabino Pina 06:51 Even though I don't have a specific answer for that, in terms of like ideas, or how to do it, I think we should try to find ways to do it. I think the STEM fields are really wonderful. And I wouldn't be a STEM, if I didn't enjoy it, or I didn't like what I'm doing. I really enjoy it. I really like it. But sometimes I wish there were more ways to connect it with the real world, not just on that on a textbook, or just based on what it's supposed to be for the exam. But a little bit more like, again, teaching to this because this is helpful for you and just in your career. But let's see how we can use this information to create things that can help the environment for example, like biology majors, they know a lot about, like, they take a lot of environmental causes, like how can we use this concept to actually create something better for more sustainable for on campus, or more sustainable for the whole community at Augsburg? Oh, I think like probably like, what I try to say is more like, I would love it to be more applicable. Or like would there would be like some type of project instead of an exam. And then you have to the project to basically find a way to use this concepts outside of the classroom, or something like that. That kind of like would bring all the critical thinking skills for the students. And also, it would be more engaging and more enjoyable. I think. Katie Clark 08:14 Thank you for that. So in what ways has civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepared you to think about your professional role or civic leadership? Whether it's currently or when you move on to med school and into your chosen profession? B Barbara Sabino Pina 08:32 I'm just to make sure I understand the question Is it like how has Augsburg prepared me more like in my career field basically? Katie Clark 08:40 Yeah. So do you see some of those civic learning experiences prepare you as a professional? B Barbara Sabino Pina 08:47 Yes, I believe so. I think more than what I have learned in the like my major itself, it's more of the things I'm getting involved with like in organizations all those positions that I got through the years, my current position as a LEAD fellow or LEAD intern. I think all those positions prepare me more in the aspects of yeah, my classes did a lot of the work on like knowledge, like okay, I know how to have this lab skills, for example, but my leadership opportunities help me to okay, how do I express my ideas? I have all this knowledge, but how do I actually send it to people in a way that they can understand? How can I have a conversation with someone that looks different? Someone that has a different background, different ethnicity? How can I have conversations with people have different experiences than me? How to be comfortable being uncomfortable? You know, like, like having uncomfortable conversations or things that aren't usually talked about, um, how do we prepare for an interview even for things like that, just like how to talk how to express correctly my skills to say what I want to say? Just all those kinds of things that might seem like, I don't know, little or little things that are still important, and that can tell a lot of your character and your personality, I think I learned a lot outside of the classroom. And through those leadership positions. Of course, I made a lot of mistakes on the way, like for sure, at the beginning, I would be thinking so much just to say the same sentence, or I would freak out in front of people, because I just, you know, public speaking can be nerve racking sometimes. But because I keep continue doing it and putting myself on those, you know, positions that kind of helped me to feel more comfortable and end up applying for more and wanting to do more. And at the end, I kind of found what I wanted to do, you know, even when, because I decided, for example, to be part of research my first year, probably wouldn't even know that I want to be a physician scientist. So I think like getting out there and get out of my comfort zone, through this leadership positions helped me a lot to discover me as myself, as a person. Katie Clark 11:08 Just sounds like you just, it's who you are, that's really brought me down this path. And that's so beautiful. Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect your decision making or be an agent of change as a professional? B Barbara Sabino Pina 11:25 I would say yes, my first years at Augburg, I learned through those like civic engagement positions, like an orientation leader and AugSem leader. As part of campus life a student program assistant, I learned a lot of like different communities and about the Augsburg community and outside of Augburg as well. And after a while, not just in those positions, I got to use those skills. But after I wanted to do something that had to do more with my career that is medicine, I ended up applying for a direct care professional position. And I believe that one of the reasons why I got this position was because I was able to show through work, the work that I did the past that I was able to work with people and do what it's needed to do for the decision. And so I believe that everything that I've learned so far has made me like a capable student and a capable just professional in general, to perform the tasks that I should be doing like for the physicians for the my career path that I've chosen. Because my the medicine even though it has to do a lot with people think of science, you know, everything just science, and you're supposed to learn so many things you study and study, study, don't get out. A lot of it is people interaction, you know, like, understanding how to, like, understand what's going on in the body and like, understand how you can talk with your patient or how to understand what's going on in their families. Because sometimes, ah, a lot of the things that happen, they will be like, did you do this? And they're like, No, I didn't, but then you like, ask another person is like, no, actually, they did. And I think that kind of trust comes from, if you actually show yourself your humanity. And like, with honesty, and they are capable to think like, okay, I can trust my doctor, you know, instead of this person that just gonna knock on me and say things is like, oh, no, this person is actually trying to do something good for me. Um, so I think I don't know, I feel like in general, all the positions that I have so far, and a couple of things I've mentioned, they have prepared me to be a better professional in the future. Katie Clark 13:53 Well, it sounds like you're very relational, too, which is so important to some of these concepts and practice too. So this question is one that's a little dense. So let me say so what connections if any, do you see among professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership? B Barbara Sabino Pina 14:18 Actually, I think that's a really good question. It's kind of interesting, because through my through the summer, before my third year, I had this moment in which I didn't I was like, wondering, like, what do I want to do with my life because I have all these things that I enjoy. But I thought I have to pick one thing. I cannot just if I'm a leader, I cannot be a doctor and I'm a doctor, I can't you know, I because we have a lot of stereotypes, that when you do something, you only can do that. And I think during in that summer, I just took a lot of time for myself and reflect on everything I've done so far. And what do I want to do? And like, what makes me happy? Like, what do I enjoy doing, because I want to continue doing that, that I enjoy. And I think it's, I was really grateful to understand and notice that in my professional career, I want to be a physician scientist, right? So I want to be hired in a lab, I want to be able to get all these questions, answer I want to be able to, you know, provide something in the future that would help to an invention, or some type of technology that would improve someone else's health. And then on my vocation, I noticed that I love teaching, for example, I actually really enjoy talking with other people about the knowledge that I have are acquired, because I think so many things are just so cool. And I'm like, I want to share it. So I noticed that I love teaching, I love talking, I love communicating. There's this other side of it, that I'm can can connect, even though I didn't notice before, like it actually can connect to my profession. And then the civic engagement part portion of it. Personally, I am really passionate about a specific community, which are the undocumented students and DACA because I am an immigrant. So as an immigrant, I did I face a moment in which I also was undocumented, and I faced a lot of challenges. And it was hard, especially as a student, because I wanted to have a future, but I didn't know how to, without, you know, any type of documents that can help me to apply for things. And so that saved that that first connection to civic engagement through my own struggle help me to be like, think of, I actually want to do something in the future that helped me to help others, not just like, not something that has my own self interest, you know, and that can help others in the process. And even though these three things might seem like, let's think about triangle or something, or they might see, like, so far away from each other, they actually I feel like they connect, because I can still continue doing my work as a physician scientist, and probably create some type of, I don't know, foundation in the future to help future doctors that are actually undocumented. Right. Daca in the same way, oh, this process needs me to communicate with people need me to do research about people like searching for people that are interested in helping me in this specific issue. Um, and I still, like I have, can have conversations, I can teach others and others can teach me in the process. So I personally feel like I don't I all of them relate in a way and I'm grateful that I know I'm capable of noticing that and that I'm because I think that's what's gonna guide me eventually to a better like, a better and happy life, doing what I enjoy to do. So I hope that answer the question, I'm not sure if it. Katie Clark 18:12 It completely does. And I would think as you enter into these systems to you might see yourself thinking about how to change the systems within which you very much spoke to as well. So wonderful. Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that specific term? So if so, how would you describe that? Or explain it to others? If you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? B Barbara Sabino Pina 18:44 I would say yes, more in the working kind of like still becoming, you know, like trained, I think we can always improve. But I would say yes, because at least for me, what it means is that I am a leader, that it's trying to create some type of change, that it's going to help others to succeed in anything that it entails. And I'm trying to do it not just, I'm not just talking about it, but I'm actually trying to use my own skills, and all the work that I've done so far to make that happen. So that makes them more like I don't know if that's where the professional part comes in, like more like instead of just you thinking about what to do with are you actually getting together with other people or doing some work about it, or being part of a program that helps you to do some work about it. But I would say that I feel like I am, just that it's more like on the working process. I still feel like there's a lot to learn many concepts to grasp as well. Well, um, and develop as a better citizen as a better individual as a better, I don't know, person in team player. If I were to explain this word to someone, I would probably say like, as long as you are, you have passion to do some type of work for others and for yourself like something that you have some type of self interest in, in the process, you are gathering, like you're organizing people and you're mobilizing people, then I think that would make you a civic, citizen professional. Katie Clark 20:43 What's interesting, this is my third interview so far. And I really hear you and others explain before you were probably even introduced to these concepts that you were doing civic agency and being a citizen professional. So I'm wondering, do you think that there's better terminology? Or have you heard of other terminology to really name some of these things that you are just doing? Or do these concepts, the way they're described, resonate with you? B Barbara Sabino Pina 21:17 I would say, I don't know if I'm the right person to say there's better or not. But I think there is maybe easier ways to explain the type of work that it's done. Since I feel like a lot of people can be a little intimidated by how it sounds, they might feel like, what they hear is like, oh, no, that sounds like too much. And I feel like I've done nothing, or I've done so little. And you know, sometimes a lot of people tend to humble themselves a lot, or more. So I think there's probably easier ways to maybe get across this concept. So other people can actually identify more themselves with it. Because personally, I feel like if a few years ago, you asked me the same question. I would have been first, like, what is this? And second? Oh, I don't think I am, like, capable or I am not. Yeah, like worth do actually just say that type of title in front of me, because it sounds like a big word. Um, so that's personally why I feel I probably think there's like maybe, I don't know, a specific won't be the better word to say maybe. I don't know, I some type of leader, maybe some are in the leader to want something in there might help to make it more understanding more, yeah, more practical and more understanding for other people. But I can see how it can be a tricky word to use around specifically people of my age. Because I think as part of the LEAD fellows, for example, I see a lot of people doing great things and like working on things that are really like, awesome. And I know there's so passionate about it. But when you ask them what they do, sometimes they just like, Oh, they're like, Oh, I just this little thing, you know, it's not big deal. And I'm like, What are you talking about? This is awesome. But I think it's just people are not used to like thinking of just big words when they refer to themselves. Katie Clark 23:16 I completely agree. So thank you, I appreciate you confirming that. Is there anything you wish you have you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you haven't yet? B Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31 Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31 I would say probably taking a little bit more care of myself. I think I learned how to do it. But I think there's just like a journey. It's like a long term thing that you kind of learn on the way. But I wish there could have been I think there's more now, but at the beginning, I feel like it could have been helpful to have more mental health type of work in the classroom, more accommodating, suggestions and modes for all the classrooms, all the classes, um, maybe like they have like in the chapel, they do sometimes people attend. And they have like a specific speaker that talks just for those 20 minutes about some type of topic. I wish like in those chapel hours, they would like talk. I don't know how little mental health sessions or, yeah, I think probably I could have been more beneficiated by more time to think of myself and be more reflective than think of like go go go go and do do do do. I eventually learned you know, but I wish Augsburg has been pushing more through that side of it. Does that make sense? Katie Clark 24:54 That's so important. Thank you for mentioning that. As far as your career development do you feel like there's any other opportunities that you wish that Augsburg offered? And there's no no one's gonna get this is just more me asking you in informal and no one's gonna get get you in trouble for answering the question. It's just some kind of wondering how do you feel about your opportunities to be ready for your future career? B Barbara Sabino Pina 25:21 I think that I'm not sure it's like I would I credit to Augsburg just because I feel I had to do more with me, looking for those opportunities, and staff and professors that were willing to, like, answer those questions for me. So I think I would like to say, like, yes, it was Augsburg and the people that I met, like, I made those connections with where an expert at what I want to say is more due to those people like those staff, those great staff members, those great faculty members, and of course, me going and looking for those people that were able to help me that they were able to provide me with like opportunities and say, like, they saw my my capabilities, my skills, and they say, oh, Barbara, I think you should apply for this, or there's this program going on in the summer, or there is this, I don't know, class in the spring that it's going to help you with data analysis, right? Simple. I think those kind of like suggestions, and those type, like people that mentor me, you know, mentor me to go in like this. I know, this is what you want. And I know this relates to that. So go ahead, do it. I think thanks to them, I feel more more capable and better prepared for the future, whatever that means. Katie Clark 26:47 Excellent. Well, is there anything you would like to share with us that I didn't ask? B Barbara Sabino Pina 26:52 I would say maybe this is not related specifically to civic engagement or anything. But, I mentioned a little bit how I'm an immigrant, and I, I was born actually, in Venezuela, I have only like three and a little bit like three years and a few months in the country. And I know, there's many other people that are living or had similar circumstances like me. And I think at the beginning, I had this thought that I was not able to do a lot of things, because of my documentation, because of just like the situation that I was going through. But if anyone else out there, it's having the same situation, and they think they can't do it, or that it's just hard, or that they feel like there's so many doors keep closing in front of them. I would encourage people to keep trying and just to keep looking for the thing to the right people, like there's gonna be people are gonna be like, No, you can't do it, or that's too hard, or I don't know anything about that. But there's gonna be people that are going to tell you, I don't know about it, but I can try to help you. And there's gonna be people like, Oh, yes, absolutely, we can work on this. So just keep knocking on those doors. And keep, like, don't feel this courage. Just because someone say no. I just feel like I want to make sure that people, whoever is listening to this, or whoever I get to, in contrary to my life, I can make, like, tell them that everything is possible as long as they're willing to work for it. And as long as they are trying to find what works for them, because I can give you an advice. But what worked for me doesn't mean they're going to work for you. So just make sure that you're keep, keep trying ways until you find the one that works for you. And, yeah, just be yourself. Enjoy the moment. I keep doing the things I enjoy doing. Katie Clark 29:00 Thank you. I mean, that's so beautiful. And so moving. And so thank you for that. So that concludes our formal interview. So I want to thank you for your time
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview With Bashiru (BK) Kormah, 2022
Collection: Citizen Professionalism Project
Search Result: Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022) Wed, 3/30 4:06PM 16:24 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps, civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university, higher ...
Show more Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022) Wed, 3/30 4:06PM 16:24 SUMMARY KEYWORDS augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps, civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university, higher ed SPEAKERS Katie Clark, Bashiru Kormah Katie Clark 00:04 Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University, and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional and higher ed. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the Augsburg Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording? B Bashiru Kormah 00:26 My name BK Kormah, an alum of Augsburg University. Katie Clark 00:31 Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you give consent to be interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public. B Bashiru Kormah 00:44 Yes, that's fine. Katie Clark 00:46 So when did you graduate from Augsburg University? B Bashiru Kormah 00:50 B Bashiru Kormah 00:50 I graduated in 2019. Katie Clark 00:53 Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently studying in your graduate degree? B Bashiru Kormah 01:01 I graduated from Osseo Senior High School. And then I went to Augsburg for my undergrad and got my degree in International Relations and International Business. Graduated as the university president in my junior year. So that was exciting. And then currently getting my graduate degree in Sustainable International Development at Brandeis University in Massachusetts. Katie Clark 01:32 Wow. Great. So asking you to think back at your time at Augsburg were there concepts of the citizen professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills that were discussed in any of your classes or programs? And if so, which ones, if you remember? B Bashiru Kormah 01:53 Yes. So I remember the LEAD Fellow Program. I'm also remember there were several conversations I think with Dennis, I'm not sure of his name. Katie Clark 02:06 Dennis Donovan. B Bashiru Kormah 02:07 Yes. Regarding that citizen, professional, and also had leadership classes. I was also leadership minor with Professor Elaine, and I'm forgetting the other professors name, Katie Clark 02:22 Eschenbacher. B Bashiru Kormah 02:24 Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes. Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes. Katie Clark 02:34 Wonderful. So which of those experiences really stand out as being meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? B Bashiru Kormah 02:49 Definitely the LEAD Fellows Program, because it was, it was very intentional with the trainings. And then with every other all of the students have in your program. We had the same conversation, and then we go out into the fields do our work together, discuss, learn more. So that program specifically believe on did a good job of targeting that goal. Katie Clark 03:14 Do you remember where your field placement was at? B Bashiru Kormah 03:18 Yeah, gotta never forget, I'm still in contact with them, Banyan Community, that's where my, my placement was, and I still have a very, very good and extensive relationship with those folks. Even after I graduated from Augsburg, I was still there working with them, and they often do recommendations for me. So yeah, it was Banyan Community. Katie Clark 03:41 So did you feel like some of those LEAD Fellow experiences spoke to your coursework when you were at Augsburg? Or did it feel somewhat disconnected? B Bashiru Kormah 03:53 I think it is just the field of my studies. I was in international relations, international business, and then being a leadership minor. So he just is really integrated really, really well. So I would say a good connected. Excellent. Katie Clark 04:09 So in what ways, if any, did the civic learning experiences while you were at Augsburg prepare you for your professional role or your opportunities for civic leadership? B Bashiru Kormah 04:24 B Bashiru Kormah 04:24 Yeah, like it prepared me really well, because right after that experience, I went directly into the Peace Corps right after college. So I think I'll just paid attention and see, and this conversation (about citizen professional) was just so deep in the guests because they were coming. So I was like, you know, I think this would be great. So just really, you know, like, just just concept I'm really wanting to learn more and dive more into it into really, really do similar work. Katie Clark 04:55 So do you feel like your experiences in the field were really what shaped your experiences moving forward? Or would you say some of the presentations in by Dennis Donovan or Elaine Eschenbacher, or that you mentioned? Did they really prepare you for post graduation life? B Bashiru Kormah 05:18 I would say it was called it was a collective experience I really helped shape my direction for, you know, after graduation, you know, just being a part of the program. And then working with other extremely gifted folks who are very passionate about doing work in the community. And that's one conversation that we had with with Dennis, it's conversation, where we have some high school students came into, and it was a very deep conversation. So this thing, just really had me hungry, I guess, for more. And that's how I decided going to the Peace Corps today to carry on similar work and be able to apply those leadership skills that I learned, you know, it does, it does work, it's very awesome, you know, to be able to incorporate it into the work I had to do. I felt very well equipped for the Peace Corps. Katie Clark 06:16 Well, and so I'm, I'm just curious, given, you know, your extensive involvement in such activities as the Peace Corps and being the president of the student body and all that. Were you like that in high school as well? Are you just, is that just kind of how you, you know, you always been or do you feel like Augsburg gave you different opportunities to develop those skills in different ways? B Bashiru Kormah 06:46 Yeah, I think in high school, the only thing I did pretty much in high school was soccer, and the Brooklyn Youth Council, like, which was a youth group that represented the youth within our cities for living in Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So those are the two main activities I did. And then, and then won the Act Six scholarship, and also, there was a lot that was similar to the work, to see where you can do additional work as well. So coming to Augsburg really exploded that, like I had an idea, but then just being a part of these programs, really, you know, exposed it. Then working with Elaine, and I got nominated for the Newman Civic Fellow. So that really, really, you know, that was a burst that I felt like I could soar. Katie Clark 07:35 That's amazing. And I remember your name, I think you spoke at a an event. B Bashiru Kormah 07:39 Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think so. Yeah. Katie Clark 07:42 Excellent. Well, have you been able to use your civic learning and community? Some of these are a little bit redundant, but they're on purpose. So we're kind of asking the question in different ways to maybe just kind of, for things a little more, but have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experiences to affect decision making or be an agent of change as a professional? B Bashiru Kormah 08:03 Yes, so currently, I'm the youth director on the board for Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So that work is, I'm able to take those experiences especially going to do some leadership, and especially in the leadership course, courses, working with different folks. And then with the, with the citizen professional, that was just so powerful for those conversation, even how nurses you know, use their skills. It was it was deep. So like, for me, it just, it just kind of opened my mind said that no matter what career I go into, have the opportunity to, you know, to be an agent of change, regardless of if I'm in a position of power or not. Katie Clark 08:57 Great. What connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership? B Bashiru Kormah 09:07 Oh, I see that as a deep one. So vocation, Augsburg, man, I just got me reminiscent of freshman year. What's your vocation? What's your vocation? (laugh). So with that, I think just the fact that my, my vocation has always been on doing development work, and it just fits in so well with civic engagement. And just like this overall umbrella was citizen professional, so it's like, so it all goes well together, you know, so I can see that. But even though my, my, my my career path has shifted, because now you know, finance now - who would have thought? But still, it's you know, I'm working from home too, you know, but I also help with this conflict resolution, some of these things that we discuss, often, we always have been our work, you know, there, there's always, you know, these things happen. But it's also awesome that these skills, you know, to be incorporated into my, my professional life, and then knowing that this also working on my vocation as well. Which is to do more development work internationally, or wherever God leads me. Katie Clark 10:34 I think I need to circle back in a few years and redo this to see where you're at. Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? If so, how do you describe that or explain it to others, even if you don't use that specific term, like, do you see yourself as a citizen or citizen professional? B Bashiru Kormah 10:55 I see myself as a citizen professional. And that's something, is funny, because I was I was ordained as pastor actually, honestly. And, and something I share with a folks, I was like, when I, when I'm blessed, and I'm the General Overseer of my own church, I would create this, this citizen professional culture, where you don't want to have to be within the church setting for you to you know, be seen as doing God's work, you know, you can be you know, that citizen professional mindset. And this to me, what it is, is you can be in any career field, but you can still be an agent of change, and being a voice for the voiceless. And then incorporating that into a church setting where you don't really have to be, you know, a pastor or deacon, you know, you can just be whatever, you could be a doctor, and you will still be doing God's work by being a citizen professional within your career, but being a good steward in your community and with your client. So I don't have a specific as a definition of it, but I just have this idea in my head of what it means to be a citizen professional, which is within your respective field, being an agent of change, and still doing work that other other people are doing for your intention. Katie Clark 12:25 That's great. Thank you. Um, so here's the question, and you can be completely honest. Is there anything that you wish you learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't? B Bashiru Kormah 12:39 I wish like that, that term is something that always stuck with me. But I wish there was like this class 101 on how to answer that question. "What is a citizen professional?" But the discussion I think, is good. Like, I have this idea in my head like, this dream of, you know, having my own church and using that model or the method, right, but I just don't know enough of it. You know, so be like something I wish we really, we really dissected. So if you have any info, Katie, please send it my way. Katie Clark 13:14 The other, the last question really is, do you have anything that you want to share with us that I haven't asked? B Bashiru Kormah 13:23 Yeah, I mean, like, that entire thing was great. To be honest. Like, the citizen professional, it was like a movement, a huge movement. But maybe it was during my term, I feel like it didn't have a lot of buzz. You know? So, um, something I wish is, it was it was very intentional, it was integrated with all of the curriculum. Or that it was at least, even if it was just a required course, or it was embedded in required courses. So the students know these terms, you know, because, I mean, the work itself was just phenomenal. Katie Clark 14:06 So being that you're at another graduate, you know, you're at another institution of higher ed, do you see now being that you can compare the two any, any things that you wish Augsburg would have done different, that you maybe have where you're at? Or do you see things that you wish your new place had that Augsburg did, like, you know, now that you're kind of in an in a new higher ed space? B Bashiru Kormah 14:33 Yeah, it's a little different because I'm a graduate student and I'm at home, so I'm not really interacting with anyone. I just go to class and then I'm on my own, so that really skews my perception on that particular question. But I can say that particular experience at Augsburg you know, this one you know that my I always reminiscing on that experience which has shaped my culture and my stature those settings. Because at Brandeis is you know, especially the program I'm in it is mostly international students just all international students from all across the world. So be those classes, it was mostly discussion, you know having this conversation. So when I had the opportunity to share my answer, I'm not just thinking from this sole mindset, I'm thinking as a citizen professional or as a global citizen. How am I gonna approach this question, knowing that I have a bunch of diverse people with extremely diverse backgrounds. You know, so it has impacted me a lot. It'll be nice to if this conversation was on a graduate level, to be honest. Katie Clark 16:03 Well, that concludes all the questions that I have for the interview. So this has been an amazing opportunity to hear from your experiences, and I've learned a lot and I'm inspired truly so. Yeah, so I'll end the recording now.
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