RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:18AM
64:49
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, conference, committee, student, christensen, opposition, paragraph, remember, vote,
nomination, personnel, people, trustees, candidate, board, church, program, year, president,
institution
SPEAKERS
K. Ber... Show more
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:18AM
64:49
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, conference, committee, student, christensen, opposition, paragraph, remember, vote,
nomination, personnel, people, trustees, candidate, board, church, program, year, president,
institution
SPEAKERS
K. Berner Dahlen, Gerda Mortensen, Carl Chrislock
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:00
This is one of the tape recordings for the centennial library of tape recordings done in the
archives room on Tuesday, December 31 1900 68. The main purpose of this interview today
is to talk with Mr. K. Brunner down, especially about some of the work in connection with
the coming election of Dr. Christensen to the presidency of Oxbridge and later to talk
about the beginnings of student personnel work at Augsburg, Caracas, Mark and Mrs.
Theresa Haines and I here to Washington will be asking questions as the year progresses.
C
Carl Chrislock 00:44
And just to fill in a little of your biographical data, Berner, you graduated from Augsburg
1931. Is that right? And were out teaching in the public schools. Part Four of it for the next
10 years. Wisdom graduate work interspersed. And then you came to Augsburg in 41. Was
it in the fall of 41? Well, the first thing I think we want to talk about here is the 1938. Annual
Conference of the Lutheran Free Church. And is it correct that you were a secretary of
committee number two, the committee that wants to respond to the reports of the
educational institutions.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
01:37
The committee's of the church conference were elected or were nominated by the
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conference the year before and elected. So that actually, we were members of the
conference for a whole year beforehand. But our meeting began on Wednesday. The first
step, which was to elect officers, and Reverend Arthur Hansen was elected chairman. And
I was reelected secretary of post which I accepted with some reluctance. That's
particularly humorous, because I'm a teacher of composition. But writing and such
conditions is not the easiest thing for me to do. But from that time on, we met as a
committee whenever possible during the conference, and tried to put into a few pertinent
paragraphs the the report of the President of the Board of Trustees and other influential
members of the the Augsburg administration. Mung other topics, of course, was the one of
major importance the nominating of the new president. And this we did.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
03:05
I remember, particularly after the opening salutation, I had written a paragraph to the
effect that we mourn the untimely death of the late George job. And immediately,
Professor Andreas, Helen raised a rather stern protest with the explanation to the
congregation that in God's hands, nothing is untimely. And so of course, the congregation
voted this out of the committee's report, excuse me. Still, I've, I've since thought that this is
a theological problem, and I wouldn't be in a position to argue it one way or the other.
And, of course, it really didn't figure here, but that's the one. That's the one thing that I
remember from reading the report. There was this one protest. And the rest of the report,
it seemed to me was received by the con by the conference withnodisturbances of any
kind. I remember once that Dr. Bernard raised his eyebrows and stopped me from reading
for a moment, while he said, there is a considerable amount of noise in the in the church
auditorium. And this is a Christian conference and or something to this effect, and that
there ought not be this kind of a disturbance. And with that, of course, the disturbance
quiet down and I was permitted to continue my reading.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
04:57
Now, the reports, of course, were made, first read all the way through, and then were
followed through paragraph by paragraph. And after that initial plunge, I really have no
recollection of any other dissension, no dissension, no, no disturbance of any kind. Other
than that, for see the secretary presented the paragraph to the to the conference, and
then stepped aside and the, and the President of the conference took over. So if there was
any, any discussion? I really had no part in it. And I don't recall that there was any, except
as I mentioned, the one about the reference to the untimely death of the late George
burger.
Gerda Mortensen 05:48
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G
Gerda Mortensen 05:48
Do you remember that Dr. Bennett took the floor and made a very strong statement
about the fact that they had a good that the only candidate to be considered was Dr.
Christensen and Dr. Norbert should not come under consideration. They had information,
that would mean that this would be punter. This would be undesirable. He said it very
carefully. But he said it was a great premise.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
06:19
Yeah, so I remember that. It seemed to me that that came. I don't remember if it was
before the voting or after, before the voting, but he did make a very emotional speech, in
which he kept his voice, very low and, and very, very well controlled, but certainly
emotional field. I think he said something to this effect that we had hoped that this would
not have to come before the conference. But since there had been some pressure on the
board of trustees that he was forced to make that statement.
C
Carl Chrislock 07:05
Now, just to refresh your memory a little here, the Board of Trustees of Augsburg brought
course to the conference, the recommendation, or they rather than nomination of Bernard
Christensen as president of Augsburg, and this had been announced a little less than a
month before the conference. The actual nomination had been made in March, but it was
sat on for about two months. This was partly at least because Christensen wasn't yet
ready to accept. And after the announcement was made in the church papers, there was
some objection to the fact that the Board of Trustees had nominated only a single
candidate. There were some who expressed the view that the annual conference should
have had at two or more candidates. Now, I was wondering if within committee number
two, there was any argument in favor of two candidates modifying the Board of Trustees
report to that extent.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
08:26
The members of the committee, of course, were frequently cornered during the conference
by certain representatives of the opposition, who suggested that it's an undemocratic
process not to have two candidates. And as I told my wife this morning, I was very young
than I was only 32. So I thought to that, it would have been better if they'd had two
candidates, at least to log on, for the conference. But since that time, I have served on
many committees and I have
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K
K. Berner Dahlen
09:06
I think there are more frequently
K
K. Berner Dahlen
09:10
nominating committees who place in nomination one person rather than two. And still it
would be considered a democratic process. Now, if the conference had wanted to
introduce a second candidate. This was entirely within the power of the conference. But as
far as the committee is concerned, I remember distinctly that we had a fairly lengthy and
perhaps somewhat heated discussion on this topic. The conference committee could only
do with what they had received from the Board of Trustees, if the Board of Trustees
presented us with one nomination for the presidency. That's what we had to work with.
And the idea of putting in a sticker candidate or someone else was contrary to the rules of
work, the church, at least, this is the standard, the committee talk, and I was happy to
have that to lean back on because as you know, you do hear a few things here and there.
And we had heard that the candidate that was being proposed was not the particular
candidate that we would like to have as a longtime president of our institution. And so I
personally had some some leaning in, in the direction of the committee rather than in the
direction of the opposition.
C
Carl Chrislock 10:43
Oh, well, yeah, I can I can, I can clarify that. No, no, that that was long before the
conference, you see, the the corporation meeting, the Board of Trustees worked out sort of
a four stage procedure, they were a little bit in doubt as to how to go about electing a
president. It did almost. It had been so informal in the previous cases. And so the first
stage really was to have a preferential vote within the corporation. Now, I'm not sure that
the that preferential vote was ever made public, it's in the corporation minutes, there were
19 votes cast, Christensen got eight Brynn, burntwood four clans, Carlson four, Norberg,
two and Hendrickson one. And this then was disclosed to the Board of Trustees. This was
back on March 9, and 10th. The Board of Trustees then unanimously and nominated
Christensen and and that was the second stage. Now the third stage, of course, was to be
conference action on the board nomination. And the fourth stage would be the final stage
Board of Trustees ratification of the conference action, which was legally necessary. And
the most controversial part of the whole thing, of course, was this business of only one
candidate. And I and I guess my question, I guess you've answered my question. My
question was whether within committee number two, there was any agitation afoot to
modify the Board of Trustees recommendation to the point of having two candidates and
and you indicate that this wasn't possible under the operating rules.
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K
K. Berner Dahlen
12:55
That's true. That's it. That's the attitude that the committee took. Now. As I recall it, we did
receive a substitute paragraph written by a member of this up for the opposition, that was
suggested as a substitute, which we could insert into our committee report. And this in did
include the two candidates, excuse me. But when we met in committee, we decided that
as you know, the committee's of the church were elected by or were nominated by a
committee of the year before. And in the procedure, very frequently, people got on
committees for which they had very little competence. And I don't know that any of us,
perhaps, Reverend Arthur Hansen was well qualified. I don't know who the other members
of the committee were at this moment. I have them here. And it was Johannes ring stood,
and inbound, Northam and Joe, who's flown and yourself and Arthur Hansen.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
13:59
Suppose that each of us could say that we were fond of Augsburg, and we're good
supporters of it. But as far as the inner workings of the Board of Trustees and the
administration of the school, this, this would certainly be far removed from myself. And I
think other members, the committee, so when it came to ruling on, which were really the
committee was being asked to do to rule on that the fact that the Board of Trustees had
not done adequately for the conference by presenting only one candidate, this would
really put us in a position as a committee of overruling the Board of Trustees. And as I
mentioned before, I think that the rules that work were such that we had no authority to
take anything outside of the material presented to us by the Corporation and the Board of
Trustees. And that's, that's the stand that we took and on which we operate. Across, I think
I had a little glow of satisfaction when when Dr. Brentwood made his announcement,
because we felt a little harried by the members of the opposition who had gotten to us
between committee sessions and, and tried to put some pressure on that we have to do
this. And we have to do that. In fact, on one occasion, the aisle was blocked from which
through which I wanted to go, and I was detained for all minute or two, and which I was
close enough to the people who are protesting that I felt really uncomfortable, because
I'm basically a peaceful man. And this is something quite strange and different for me.
Now, in all deference to opposition's, it seems to me that, as I mentioned informally
before, the the enthusiasm with which the younger group from the college from the
church had greeted Dr. Norberg in his appearance in Minneapolis, I think is one indication
as to why this enthusiasm tended to want to increase and retain such a man for our own
institution. So I don't I don't think that my own statements about them would be in any
sense criticism, but simply a matter of stating the position of the committee, which I was a
member.
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C
Carl Chrislock 16:34
You know, I think a few days ago in conversation, you you indicated that there were some
members of the Norberg faction. Who put pressure or you mentioned that here to that
they put pressure on members of the committee. Now, did I understand that some of them
tried to put pressure on you a secretary to to turn in a report to two nominations?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
17:07
Well, actually, the last the least, that they thought that I could do, if I had any sense of
citizenship at all was to turn in a minority report. And this, I think, in all fairness is possible.
I believe a member of the committee would have a complete authority to go against the
the motions of the committee and majority and turn into Minority Report. And it was felt,
or it was so stated by members of the opposition that this was my responsibility, moral
responsibility if, if not legal responsibility. And they would provide me with all the
paragraphs necessary for this Minority Report. But of course, I resisted that. So let's try
tenuously as I could. And I was glad afterwards that I had done it, because, among other
things, as I mentioned to you, privately, Carla, Dr. Brentford, waited for the committee.
And when I came, he said, Well, the Secretary, please report for committee number two,
and I walk all the way down in front of the church right down the middle of the aisle. And
then he raised his eyebrows and said, Who is going to read your report? Where's the
secretary of the committee? And he's, and I said, I'm the secretary of committee.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
18:34
So he stopped for a moment. Very few times that Dr. Franklin was caught without some
words to say. And I guess he didn't know what word he wanted to say at that particular
point. I think he was impressed by the gravity of the situation. And here, I was a mere
novice. My only position was out of a an alumnus who had been nominated to the
committee. And I think he was looking for some other person to present the report. We
had, of course, urged the chairman of the committee, read the report in the conference,
but he refused to do it. Since he said it was the routine for the Secretary to read the
report. Well, that was a humorous aside, I think,
C
Carl Chrislock 19:29
Did president Brentwood have any suspicion because of your youth that you were a
member of the other faction?
K. Berner Dahlen
19:40
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K
K. Berner Dahlen
19:40
I'd rather not mentioned that aspect of it. Dr. Bernard, and I had a number of interesting
conversations, one of which was done in Norwegian. And so I have an opinion as to why
he did it. But I'd rather not say
C
Carl Chrislock 20:06
Well, now, I think we've we've established some of the main facts here. The the opposition
did want to or didn't expect you to turn in a minority report, you say, and I've wondered
about that why a minority report was not turned in that, of course, would indicate the
committee number two on the whole was with the recommendation of the board.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
20:39
I think there's no question about the fact that the committee was fairly well unified on the
on the topic of having just one candidate as presented by the Board of Trustees, I think we
would have felt more comfortable if there had been another candidate presented.
However, the committee certainly was in support of the candidate that was listed by the
Board of Trustees. Now, as far as the Minority Report is concerned, perhaps that's that was
because of the fact that the committee kept pressing us with with the urgency of this, and,
and I suppose it raised some stubbornness on the part of the committee. In opposition to
being pressured, we felt that committees were supposed to be acting free from pressure,
and this was not the case. Another another thing it seemed to me was the fact that they
had the opposition said that, that the conference was, was very much more in their favor
than in the candidate presented by the board. But wherever we, wherever we talk to
people, we found that the claims of the opposition were exaggerated. And I think that this
is borne out in the actual voting that the negative vote was very slight. Yes.
C
Carl Chrislock 22:12
Unfortunately, we don't have complete minutes from the convention I've there is an
infocomm bladder to fuller account. And in the annual report, you know, the annual
report is got a daily journal. And this journal indicates that the report of committee
number two was considered on Friday afternoon. And the first paragraphs were adopted
pretty much without discussion, they were non controversial. And and then, of course,
when they got to, to the presidency, a substitute motion was introduced on the floor.
Maybe that was to substitute motion that you were asked to submit as a minority report.
Professor HN Hendricks will be retained as acting president for one year and Dr. BM
Christensen be made dean of the college department and Dr. Stretton Norberg, Dean of
the theological department now that was presented by john Kwan back. Pastor john Kwan
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back of Starbuck, according to this. And before the discussion got underway, the
Secretary read a letter from Dr. sweater Norberg in which he stated that he had decided
to refuse nomination to the office of president of Augsburg seminary 11 speakers took part
in the discussion of the substitute motion six, four and five against. And so this got to be
pretty long. The talk about it account indicates that it got to be so long that quite a few of
the delegates left. Do you remember? You remember? You remember that?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
23:55
No, I can't say I can't say that. I remember that. Subject a motion of this nature, of course,
would be handled completely by the conference, President and the Secretary would be
either standing or sitting off to one side. And as the time passed, I can well imagine that
many of the people many of the delegates did leave.
C
Carl Chrislock 24:23
Yeah, well, then to just to procedure just to refresh your memory on this. Then emotion was
made mean after that long discussion on the substitute emotion, then emotion was made.
The paragraph for which dealt with Dr. Sweat and Norberg nomination for permanent
professorship in Old Testament theology be voted on before discussion of the substitute
motion. And this motion was adopted UC, so they discussed. Norberg is a theological
professor. And the paragraph was adopted. That is he was approved by the conference as
theological professor. And just to follow that up a little bit, there were negotiations
through the summer that were directed apparently towards securing his acceptance. But
of course, he did not accept them. Emotion was then entertained to table the substitute
motion. The substitute motion, you're not Professor Hendrickson should act for one more
year. Now this was to table it. And the result of this voting was 146, four and 79. Against,
you know, 146 for would have been against the motion and the 79 against would have
been for it. So that put the original paragraph three, that is the nomination of Christmas
and before the house, five speakers discussed the paragraph for being in favor and one
against pastor handle house it move that the meeting, vote on the question whether the
election of President of Oxbridge she'll be decided this year delayed on to next year.
Professor Hendrickson was opposed to years delay enters the conference to settle the
matter. emotion to table houses motion was entertained. And this motion was adopted
with 138 votes for and 57 against. And then they sang him. And they had a season of
prayer for the guidance of God's Spirit in this and more important matter. And after that,
the meeting proceeded to vote by ballot on the original paragraph three, and the result
here, Christian since nomination was approved by 214, affirmative balance 17, negative 13
ballots Mark not voting, and three ballots marked. Dr. Norberg that's the way the that's
the way it's summarized here.
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K
K. Berner Dahlen
27:00
I can remember the fact that in the meeting, there were these large numbers. Because so
often in our Lutheran Church conferences, the balloting became rather lacks and to have
votes of over 200 were quite unusual. And, of course, as I mentioned before, Dr. banquet is
an admirable chairman of the church conference, because these interruptions for the
singing of a hymn and followed by a prayer session, were very effective in and subduing,
rather boisterous spirits, including the secretary, I presume.
C
Carl Chrislock 27:47
Yeah, well, now, I'd like to ask you another question here. Do you think that these votes,
now they're they're not all of them consistent, but you have one vote here. 146, really for
the boards position 79, against 138 457 against. And then, of course, 214, for original
paragraph 370. Against that is, you'd have to say there were 8086 against 214 to 86. If you
count, the Norberg vote, the not voting vote. And the negative vote. Do you think that
reflected the sense of the convention? Or do you think the Norbert people were were
closer to being correct in in saying that they had considerable support?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
28:51
Well, actually, I would have no way of knowing it in detail. But I would think that the vote
pretty well reflect the spirit of the meeting. I think that the leaders of the opposition were
very popular, and were very energetic, and had certainly had many buttonholing sessions
with voting delegates, so that they tried to raise their total vote to as much as they
possibly could. So I think that and of course, the opposition didn't work at all, as far as I
know. So I think that the vote then would represent about as much as the minority could
possibly have raised under any circumstances. And some of it, of course, would have been
artificially encouraged the people voting really in, in harmony with their friends, rather
than for any condition that they might have had. So I think that I think that the opposition
was really pretty much job scare head rather than an actual active opposition.
C
Carl Chrislock 30:08
And now I have one more question about the opposition. It's not entirely clear from
sources that I have here. And that is, its composition. Now, it's pretty clear that this young
group, you might call it almost a children's crusade. Well, that group of allegiance and
seminarians with Johnson, Johnston swag and having a baton in the lead, they were one
important element in it one day. And who else was was in it? Was it a coalition between
them and some other groups? Do you remember Were there any of the older people who
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were suspicious of a cooperation with the American Lutheran conference? Did they tend
to rally to, to to the Norbert candidacy, there's some indication that this might be so from
the letters coming into the blood it?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
31:09
I wouldn't have any insight on that at all, I think I was surprised to discover that Simon LV
was a member of the opposition. But, of course, he was concerned about the evangelistic
awakening, which I think he envisioned, with dynamic percentages, Norberg was, and it
seems to me that this is probably one of the things that stirred the emotions and
imaginations of the others to and the minority group. But I really couldn't say it seems to
me that it would be fair to say that it was representative cross section of, of enthusiasts,
both for the vision of building new buildings and far expanding the influence of Augsburg
throughout the Lutheran Free Church and, and simply getting a new dynamic in motion.
I'd really don't know of too terribly many persons involved other than the leaders
themselves, with whom I had some contact during the contract.
G
Gerda Mortensen 32:30
I think you're right in talking about some of these people who are a little bit afraid that
Christensen was going to lead them into merger with other groups. And so some of those
ultra conservatives voted against this, because I think they had a feeling that if Norberg
elected, he would certainly keep us just as loose and free church, and not too much the
movement with the others. But I think that I know, every annual conference, it seemed
that there was some big issue, they took a day or a day and a half. And it seemed that this
got to be a therapy for the whole group. And I had a feeling at the end of that day that
somehow there came a positive for people to do some second thinking before that final
vote was cast, and it was pretty representative.
C
Carl Chrislock 33:22
Now Berner, you mentioned Mel B I'm, what was he active in the convention? On behalf of
Norbert
K
K. Berner Dahlen
33:33
I don't think that he was active in any sense out of them that he was. He was along with
the leaders of the of the supporters of Norberg. I don't remember talking to him in person,
except that I remember when battalion talk to me then or then Mel B was right beside
him. And was second his statements. This had reference to, as I recall it, introducing a
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substitute motion or turning in at least a minority report. I don't know why the minority
report should have not appeal to them. And particularly, but it seemed it seemed to me
that that was kind of a second choice. Perhaps minority reports are not too effective in a
in a conference. There's something negative about it at the very beginning. But maybe, of
course, was a Bible teacher and he hadn't heard enough of Norberg to regard him as an
outstanding Bible teacher. So, he had a great deal of enthusiasm for him. And as I
mentioned before, the the wave of enthusiasm that came as a result of Norberg saw
dynamic leadership, in reference to raising funds for creating Memorial Hall was enough to
sell many of the young people on his fitness as a leader of the institution itself.
C
Carl Chrislock 35:16
Do you have something in the in the in the Norberg Wilco clack? Yeah. And and and who
were who were the leaders was, was the towel them and, and still swag in my writing was
john there. Johnston swag.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
35:35
I don't remember. I don't remember it particularly stands for but the person that I talked to
most of all is the TV because of course, we were college classmates and, and I think he
had that sense of control. He had always been able to dominate me during college days.
And so he assumed that same control later as well.
C
Carl Chrislock 36:02
Do you remember? Do you remember john? JOHN Kwan back here? I've asked him about
this. He doesn't remember anything about it. Now. He was the one that introduced the
substitute motion. Did he play a role here?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
36:16
I don't remember this particular conference. Jon Bon Becca, of course, came to Augsburg
seminary late in life. As I recall it, he was he was a new theological student, the year I was
a senior. And he distinguished himself by being a very aggressive basketball player
particularly, and became quite quite a leader for the younger group, because he was
aggressive, both and vocal. And of course, I'd had some more experienced and he was
more mature than most of them. I can, I can, I can say that. I, I think that he was too
energetic, both on the basketball field. And in his and his activities among the students. As
far as his aggressiveness was concerned. As the chairman of the student council for a year,
for the student society, we used to call it in those days, I had many clashes with a number
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of seminary students, including john convict. Well, yeah,
C
Carl Chrislock 37:35
I i think i think probably we've gone as far as we, you know, need go on this particular
topic. I think there was something quite different that we wanted to ask you about here to
just one more question. Now, I'm 30 years after the event, its course very easy See, to see
things that were not present them. And it occurs to me when I look at some of this that in
some sense, this contest pre staged or anticipated, the later battle over merger is would
that be correct? Do you think that you see the faint outlines of that here? I think we really
touched on that, or were these other questions, the dynamism of of Norberg and the idea
that he would get a campus built and give that kind of leadership? Was that the
predominant thing?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
38:49
I don't think I would be qualified to answer that. Because I haven't given any thoughts. It
seems to me, though, that the leaders of of the opposition and 30 years ago later became
the leaders for the merger. Well, that's true. And this would be somewhat inconsistent with
the, with the general pattern. Now, of course, that there could be this energetic group
within the church that didn't always see the the ideas of the mainstream. This is entirely
possible. But I don't personally see any, any trend there beginning at that particular time.
Yeah.
G
Gerda Mortensen 39:41
But you remember to the Johnston spoke for a long time was anti merger. And it wasn't
until we had gotten well into the discussion, whether we should hit merge or not that john
was thoroughly converted to become for the merchant, the church. Amen. Annual
Meeting. And Wilmer, I guess it was, when he finally said, well, I've changed my mind.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
40:07
Well, this, I think is true and but isolated cases, you find when you have very strong
personalities that they are, they tend to swing from one extreme to the other, seemed a
little inconsistent, that he should be the interpreter of surgery, as he did at that Willmar
conference. And then, at the same time, just lately resigned from the leader of the
opposition to the merger. So there is a little inconsistency there. But it seems to me that
there was a struggle for leadership there more so than that there was a struggle for, I
should say, person personal leadership, or an attempt to gain a position of power rather
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than having the leadership of the church as
C
Carl Chrislock 40:56
Well, I think this concludes our discussion on the 38 conference. And and now we can stop
it just a little. Bernard, during your early years, here is Dean, CU. You came in 41. You were
here. 4142. And then you returned in
K
K. Berner Dahlen
41:18
October and I returned in October and 45, October in 45. Well, I may say that as far as my
employment is concerned, there are many people who have said to me, I hope half
humorously that. Oh, I see, you are hired because you were the one that puts the
president into nomination in 1938. And I think this is not true. Because my first conference
with President Christensen, about coming to Augsburg as really as Dina men and
counselor boys, this is the this is the thing that he was most concerned about, I suppose
came in during 1940. I had a letter from him in which he asked if I would stop in some
time, on hours in the city. And we would have lunch together, which was a very
characteristic Christensen procedure. We did have lunch together and we had two or
three other sessions, in which he discussed Augsburg as an institution. He even mentioned
the fact that he had decided to discuss the possibility of having a dean of the college and
he wanted to know what my opinion was about certain people in that area. At first, I was
disturbed to think that I was being promoted for something for which I had no
qualifications. But this scar was settled very quickly when he mentioned the persons that
he had in mind. But I did come to Augsburg with a contract, which stated that I was to I
was to be in charge of the boys to serve as counselor and Dean event. And incidentally,
teach speech and freshman English. So I had from the very start to full time jobs, but let
me say that he wasn't satisfied to let things wait till he got the personnel for it, because as
I recall it, Gordon Martin's and as Dina women, and early and heard all, as, as an
interested teacher, I suppose, had begun the student personnel work at least two years
before maybe three, so that when I came, there was going concern that they had a
department of student personnel. And all I did was to fit into it. And of course, the fact that
I stayed there only one year, from the beginning, was not a very much help to anyone
except me. I learned a lot that year. The position of Dean of men was not exactly an easy
one during that year, because siloed lb was still living in his old quarters. And to all intents
and purposes, he was still, he was still the dean. And newer, younger man with no
dynamics to, to boast of, I wasn't a popular basketball coach. In fact, I don't know
anything that I had to offer, except that I did insist on getting furniture from my office,
which was in Memorial Hall. And this was finally granted, even though I bought it myself.
And incidentally, I still own I still own the desk. But those were times when Oxbridge didn't
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have as much money as it has had, both before and after.
C
Carl Chrislock 45:26
All that work that is Markinson and earning are now dead on student personnel. was that?
Was that done before? A European first stint of service here? Or was it done in the interim?
between your first stint and you're coming back?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
45:50
No, the work had been done. I don't remember when they first started attending these
North Central summer sessions. But they had attended at least one before I came. And
these, these North Central workshops, which were held either at University of Minnesota
or at the University of Illinois, were geared towards helping different institutions develop
their own personal program. And of course, the program that was prominent at Augsburg
was that of student personnel program. It envisioned Student Counseling for freshmen
assistance at registration time, vocational guidance, and I think all the general areas of
student personnel as we know it today. And while it was held in a kind of suspended state,
I suppose for three years. My question was taken over by early punk Seth, who was then a
senior in the seminary, I should say he lived in the dormitory as head resident during the
first year. And really, I'm not familiar with what happened because by that time, I had
gone overseas and I didn't know much about it until October 45.
C
Carl Chrislock 47:22
Gerda, do you have some comments?
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:27
We had started this top quite early, even before you came, as you indicated, an airline or
gal had been one of the first people to spend a summer at this workshop I had been with
Dr. Christensen the summer before when they first initiated them, had invited me to come
along in so he said, Well, now we can get some, some ideas. And so at national
conventions, I had made a study and we started the university student personnel
workshops Institute's in the fall, and the ideas from there. And then the summer of 45, I
had been the representative to the workshop. And Dr. Christensen has asked me just take
student activities. And it was when we were getting ready to plan this science building.
And when I got over there, Dr. Gilbert ran was just back from service and he had heading
up this homework was to the personnel at Minnesota and what was his name? Matt?
Dugan, Dr. Willis Dugan. The two of them are great team. And so it was when I chose as
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my leader in that particular workshop, and I told Dr. Christensen, we had to take a look at
the total student personnel program. And so the total student personnel program was one
of the things that we started to study.
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:49
And then I asked if we couldn't both Mr. Don and I be representatives at the workshop, the
following server, which we did. And after that, we both took courses from doctor when I
know we were in that administration course, when we together administrating student
personnel, so that we got a chance to work on the floor plan of the first floor of this
building, and are just trying to put our offices in such a way that we'd be adjacent to the
registrar's office and, and to some of the others so that we tried to work out even in that
capacity, some of these things. And when you came back from the service went to
appointed Dean of Students at that point with a broader point of the supervising this total
program. And together, we worked and I was made the coordinators, student activities.
And so together, we tried to work as best we could to implement. And mind you I had
followed to burn down and you know, full teaching load and fully other, and I had all the
supervision of the housing of women, and we didn't have a dormitory for them. And I had
to hunt for houses in every area, from Cedar to Riverside to the river to Franklin Avenue, in
order to house people, all these things is simply we're done, that we try to do the best we
could, and what we hit, we developed a little, many, many, many of the areas but the
beginnings were there. And we worked at trying to implement them and make them as
workable as possible.
C
Carl Chrislock 50:20
You would, you would trace the beginnings and really to the early years of Christian since
administration. They were before the war. And then then what happened after the war
was, in a sense, further development or fruition of it?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
50:39
Well, I'm quite sure that he mentioned when I was hired, on the arrangements were being
made for me to come to Augsburg. He mentioned the fact that the This work was going
on, and that there was a plan, proceeding under which students would be taken care of
through student personnel work. And their particular reason he chose me was that I'd had
five years of successful Boy Scout work. And some community dramatics in my teaching
up at Crosby aren't and I was a director of plays for the High School, which extended into
junior high school and some community activity. So that by putting those two things
together, he thought he had someone who, who might have some insight into student
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personnel, interests and activities. And so I'm quite sure that this is what he had in mind
when, when he hired me was that student personnel program was already in effect. And
then, of course, as Gerda mentioned, the the workshops that we attended the University I
attended to, I guess you probably attended, three, four. And I know that early girl had
attended at least one before I came. So the, we certainly would have to mention that the
North Central Association gave us of their best. And at these workshops, we studied ideal
programs and, and in some of our coursework, we were given assignments, I went once to
St. All of college, and investigated their student personnel program, which at that time, I
may say, was not very much of a program. And my experience has been as a member of
the American College personnel association of the national vocational guidance
association that Augsburg has been quite far in advance of most of the schools in our
area, and programs. Both in the handling of Student Affairs and, and handling of student
registration of counseling, vocational guidance, and so on. And it's sometimes amuses me
to hear students in our day, particularly those who want to test the faculty courses. And
I've even forgotten the term that I'm supposed to be doing evaluations due to student
evaluation of teachers, I even had to do one of these during one of the workshop sessions
must be about 20 years ago, when I work with one of the sisters from St. Scholastic and
Duluth, and we designed our own, which was density used throughout the United States. I
remember getting requests from both south and east from different colleges who ask
permission to use our form. But this, of course, simply indicates the the characteristic of
human beings that we're not very good historians, we have very short memory. We, we
see the thing that's current and have no, no memory for the past.
C
Carl Chrislock 54:19
I certainly agree with that. I think in many instances, I think, in other areas. Now, just
shifting a little bit, it must have been quite a challenge. And maybe both you and Miss
Markinson would want to comment on this too. It must have been quite a challenge at to
face that postwar crop when enrollment just bulged in. Well, I suppose in in 4647, there
was some Belgian in late 4546 even. You have any comments on that.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
55:04
I don't remember when our Nash was registrar was that in 4142. He was acting registrar for
one year, and during the summer we met. And he asked if the student personnel services
could help in registering students for the fall. And I think that this is the first time that we
really got our program of student orientation underway. And this experience was
invaluable when in 1945. In 46, really, we got one new class that started at the second
semester. And then we began one in the middle of the semester. So we had three classes
going. And then we started one unusual one, about the 15th of March, we had short
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session with double periods and a limited number of credits. So we really had four
separate classes going all in one, one year. And then, of course, we had the summer
session. But I may say before I turn this over to Gerda that, as far as the men were
concerned, coming back from the service, they were an ideal group of persons to deal
with, they had no clothing, their money was all provided for them through the GI Bill. So
they presented no problem of any kind. They simply got their books from the bookstores
and studied their lessons, they had a pair of trousers, civilian trousers, and a sweater or
two, and a jacket. And that provided their whole wardrobe. In contrast to now of course,
with the rainbow colors, both top and bottom, and all the other things that go with it,
stereo and hi fi, that becomes not only a problem of, of control, but logistics where you're
going to put all
G
Gerda Mortensen 57:15
I may call one meeting, I was asked to represent Oxford get a meeting of all the
Minnesota private college councils and all the people who were hit to education. And they
just announced it that meeting that we have some certain number of thousand students
that have to be taken care of this year. And our expensive portion is 200. And will you just
take them? Well, everybody said yes, we will just take them we don't know where we're
going to put them what we're going to do. But that group of post war veterans who came
that had no connection with us. They just simply came here to classes and went again,
and really didn't take didn't enter into the life of the college at all. But I remember that
day group of fellows who came back and how much fun it was in history class, because all
right, I want to write about Russian diplomatic relations, because they'd been nailed by
the Russians or I want to do something on Italy, because I was in Italy or I want it right
down the negros because I was in the south. And then that group of men who found that
their dear coach, that assignment will be it died, they dedicated the year to winning
basketball. So the cream of the crop of six different years fund the basketball team. And
then they won the state championship, which gave a kind of a forward moving and the
NA, it was a great cohesive force and a real fun type of thing.
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:44
But they also were like you said, very ready to settle down and get educated and get out
and to do some of the things glad to be back again. Nothing to that are working toward
accreditation with our central association that your Christensen very early was smart
enough to remember he said, Well, why when Why can't we just expect our teacher to be
back through history September the university does. They don't start school till the fall.
But they're expected to be in the office and said, Why don't we try some faculty
workshops. And so he was willing to do this. And I remember Dr. Lucy Eckert. Some of us
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have taken courses from at the university came over one workshop one, Paul said, when
I'm giving you my whole course in higher education, United States, and many other things,
and we had Dr. Read and we had Dr. Duke. And we had some of these people come to
help us and to orient the whole faculty toward this. And I would say to that the faculty was
very willing to accept the assignments that you made. Brenda, when you we talked about
having counselors and working at the beginning of this program. And I know I we worked
out one of these outlines, which we used for many years to get information about the
students. And Dr. revenues. That is one of the examples in his book on personnel, which he
and restraint out that you're following are being at that orientation or organization
administration of personnel work at Minnesota, but they kept up their personal interest in
us and kept telling their students over to visit us just as we had been sent out to visit other
institutions.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
60:29
Well, I just want to mention, as far as some of these programs are concerned, we of
course, didn't have the advice from the best people in the business. Dr. Ren was president
of the American College personnel Association, simultaneously with being president of the
National vocational guidance Association. So it was fortunate for him that they met in
convention at the same time, so he could be give his presidential address only once. And
the information that they gave us, of course, was enough to give us the ideas that
formulated the program, which we followed. For example, Gerda mentioned, the the
faculty being counselors now. The University of Minnesota program insisted on having
professional counselors do all the counseling. And if you had a registration advisor, this
was fine. But to try nothing else, now, in the national picture, there came a movement.
One of the directors of the, of the national, or he was a member of the Washington staff of
the National Education Association, indicated that because of the great need for
counseling, no group of professionals could possibly cover it, it was necessary, I do
introduce the idea of faculty, counselors. And so it was necessary to have in service
training. So we began in service training, and I remember our faculty very well, grumbling
somewhat, but still accepting their responsibilities and, and doing an admirable job. I
think, anytime we went to a professional conference, such as the N, Ace American college
personnel Association, or the NBA, GA at Chicago or elsewhere, we were always proud to
think that we've already been doing this program at Augsburg for a year or two or five. So
it is nothing new to us. And we can report on our success rather than look forward to
doing something in that area.
C
Carl Chrislock 62:49
Yeah, well, so very good to get this information on tape. Now. Getting back to this post
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war crop students. Do you think that over the long range that this crop did contribute to
make our student community more heterogeneous, less homogeneous than it had been
before?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
63:19
Yes, I'm sure of this that our student group became much more heterogeneous. But I would
say that I would support it 100% if there was a chance for politics to be involved in
scholarship programs. The GI bill that we had after World War Two is certainly the finest
program that could be introduced where the student was given the the tuition while the
tuition money was paid to the institution after he chose the institution. But he was given
his subsistence and he could choose any school that he wanted. And I think of a number
of teachers and Minneapolis Public Schools, for example, both elementary and high
school, who graduated from Augsburg during those years who had no connection at all
with our institution. My own children went through Bancroft school for Mr. Cabot's who
went here. He was a student of mine in the short story during the summer session, I
remember. And we he lives in South Minneapolis, we've seen him and his wife and
operation and he had absolutely no no connection with Augsburg under the faint remote
circumstances. And yet, he is one of the most eager readers of the morning paper to see
how odds are good the night before. RA looks to see what programs are coming. And I
think he's typical of the
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Show less
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKER... Show more
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKERS
John Stensvaag, Gerda Mortensen, Paul Sonnack, Carl Chrislock, Phil Quanbeck
C
Carl Chrislock 00:00
I'm Carl Chris lock. And the purpose of this interview is really to probe the general
direction and taken by the Augsburg religion department roughly in the period since
World War Two. Now, for the sake of the centennial history, were very interested in this
probe proceeding on the premise that there have been some vital changes at Augsburg.
And we think of the are assuming that the religion department perhaps is one of the most
sensitive seismograph of that change. And we have these three men here because we feel
that due to their long association with the religion department that they are better
qualified than anyone else to answer questions and to reflect on it.
C
Carl Chrislock 01:23
I'll direct my first question at John Svenstaag. Now, you were here, and John, and both as
a professor in the seminary, and as a key member of the college religion department.
Now, in serving in this double function, did you distinguish between your goals as seminary
teacher, and member of the college religion department?
J
John Stensvaag 01:58
Yes, I think I did. I think I conceived of my task in the college, I was teaching freshman, you
know, to be that have to be pastoral, helping these young people who are just come out of
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high school, into the college, into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures, and with
the aim of helping them to see the the gospel and helping them to see the message of the
Scripture, hopefully, to deepen them in their faith, and to help others towards committing
to the faith in the seminary, I think I thought of my task, rather, along more academic lines,
to, to help them into an understanding of the Scriptures and historical process to which
the scriptures came in to be incorporating them the findings of a more recent studies over
the scriptures, including the critical and liberal, so called liberal approach to the
scriptures. Maybe I should say that I started teaching in the seminary or in the college in
1946. And that, as I began teaching, it wasn't a certain setting. And I think of Si Melby, who
was teaching, basic Bible, you know, up until his death, in about 44, I think, or somewhere
in there. And naturally, I influenced a good deal by his concept of the tasking, and his way
of teaching the scriptures and so on. So there was a carryover from that period, to, to
Mine and Ours. And, and the teaching of the basic Bible that we did was basically to lead
them into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures without raising a lot of questions,
critical questions, and so on that you would raise, perhaps in the seminary.
C
Carl Chrislock 04:41
I don't know whether this is Carl speaking. I don't know whether we will be promoting a
confrontation here or not. But would feel I'd like to have you comment on what John said,
in terms of what you were trying to do is in its chairman of the mission
P
Phil Quanbeck 05:00
Ah, Phil Quanbeck I think that, that I'd like to say that the concern of the, of the
department during the time that I was here, in some sense, was, in probably in a rather
fundamental sense, was influenced again, by Johnston's fog, who'd been my teacher in
seminary. I think that the pastoral concern still obtained when I first began, and I would
like to think that it's still still obtains still exists. But I think that a pastoral concern always
manifests itself in a particular historical situation. And that, that the pastoral concern, as
it was evidenced when I was a student in the college, would really, and I never had you as,
as a as a student. But I think that that, that the sort of concern that was manifest in the
courses that I didn't have in college, would really not be available today. Because the the
sort of student that we have, the student that comes to us has, I think, and I'm, I might be
wrong, but I think has to be encountered in a different way. Today, from what from the
way in which he was encountered during my tenure in as a student in college.
06:49
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So I think that the pastoral concern, I would prefer to think is still present. The degree to
which its present, the character of its presence, I think, is is a matter of about which there
may be legitimate the discussion and debate.
P
Paul Sonnack 07:20
This is Paul Sonnack, I'd like to just pick up a comment and, and what Phil is just finished
saying, in trying to reflect my own experience, it is, you know, maybe, maybe what's
happened in the religion department is that we have tried in a responsible fashion to be
responsive to the students that we've had. I started teaching at Augsburg in 1949. And I
can't date this, you know, in any precise terms. But I think the first years that I spent here,
as a teacher made clear that then the main problem is it that I had to face as a teacher in
relation to the students was not really to commend the Christian faith to them so much. I
think I did that. But I thought my problem was rather to try to open them up to the world,
so that they could read try to relate the affirmations of the faith that allow them just took
for granted to what was going on in society, for example, I think in the most recent years
that I spent at Augsburg, the problem had really become quite reverse. I can no longer
take for granted kind of the commitment or of the students to a Christian view, but rather
really a radical questioning. They were open to the world. I don't know they've been made
that way. But they were and the questions that they were asking, really had to do with the
with the viability of Christian faith as a religious alternative in the 20th century. Now, I
think, you know, if a teacher tries to be responsive to his students, that, that those issues
somehow become quite clear. And maybe This accounts for some of the though the way
in which the religion department is trying to respond to this.
C
Carl Chrislock 09:32
Any Any further commentsalong the line that
J
John Stensvaag 09:40
I think that's, there's a lot of truth in that. And sometimes you're not conscious, necessarily
right at the moment, or what's happening, you know, but I think there is, that's true, what
Paul says it, that the students are changing as they come in, they come in with different
different presuppositions, you know, and different questions and so on, and you have to
try to be responsive to that. But I'm wondering if today, you know, we we need not kind of
to go back, not necessarily in a way we did it, but we need to go back and help them as
I'm sure you're doing, to, to see the Christian religion as an exciting thing as a, as a
challenging thing. So that they be gripped by it again, you know, because I think is right,
as Paul says, we tend to that the seminary, now they come there, and they don't want to
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study theology, they want to just study sociology. They don't want to study theology or, or
anything that goes with it. They don't want to study the Bible so much as as they just want
to know how to relate to the civil disorders, and all of that that's going on, how does it
relate to the black community and all of this. So now our battle is to help them to see
again, the relevance of the gospel and the wonder of the car, how that gospel really is
basic to, to society and to what we're trying to do for society.
J
John Stensvaag 11:10
But in the process, I think we need to get back to the Scriptures again, and and help them
into real knowledge of the Scriptures. Not necessarily in the way we did it before. Because
the situation has changed that I fail. Yes, I think that
P
Phil Quanbeck 11:34
I don't know how important this kind of it is. But I think that there is a sense in which that
Paul and I as, as your students, when you were a professor in the seminary, were really
strongly influenced by your teaching, and by the critical method that you introduced. And
I think that, that the development of the critical method in in courses in the college was
was a necessary development in any case, what have happened in any case at all. But I
think that the sort of background that I at least understand myself to have gotten
provided me with the, with the understanding, to do this really freely, you know, and
without being intimidated or, or bound in terms of the understanding of the tradition.
C
Carl Chrislock 12:38
Carl, again, john, a few moments ago, you talked about having been influenced by J.
Sigurd Melby, Si Melby in your as your predecessor. Now, perhaps this is getting off the
track that we were on? hope we can get back on it again. But I'm wondering if if you could
just make a few comments about maybe about his approach about how he taught
religion courses about how he conducted the religion department. I believe he was
chairman until 1937. I'm interested in that I've already handled him but I haven't handled
that aspect of it.
J
John Stensvaag 13:35
Well, he was primarily a Bible teacher, you know. I suppose he taught a few other courses. I
didn't have any other courses from him then in Bible courses. Hi. Wow. Yeah, that was not
in this in the religion department. He taught American history in college. Sure. But I think
his his concern was to to make the Bible alive. And I think he had a knack for teaching the
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Bible, he had a knack for making the Bible come alive, you know. And, and for us at that
time, I think this was very helpful and good. But I'm not, I don't think that his particular
method would necessarily appeal to young people today. The way he outline the
Scripture, and so on, he didn't raise any other critical questions at all. I can't remember
that in any way. He, he confronted us with these questions. You know, it was Bible content
that he was after and making the Bible alive. And he hadn't been dualistic approach to it.
Not only evangelistic, but nurture and evangelism kind of went hand in hand as he as he
did his work. And this was sort of that ethos out of which we then came and began to
teach
P
Phil Quanbeck 15:23
in this in this common doesn't have anything to do with Simon LB. But I want to make it in
the light of certain other things that we've said, I, I think that it would be true to St. JOHN,
that. And you mentioned this earlier, Paul, but the the Department of religion wanted its
courses to be academically responsible, and that whatever else they were, they weren't
intended simply to be religious experiences.They were intended to
requireacademicexcellence. They were intended to require intellectual reflection, so that it
wasn't simply, you know, kind of a non academic perspective. And I would guess that was
characteristic of the time that you began to teach in the college and I think
P
Paul Sonnack 16:26
This is Sonnack .You know, john, this is very interesting. I guess I've never heard you say
some of these things before. And as phila said, both he and I, I think I've been influenced
by you. A great deal more than you would like, perhaps to admit. But I, you know, you
mentioned that, that Simon LB was a man with that deep pastoral concern, and that he
was a Bible teacher that he made the Bible Come on live. Now, you know, when I reflect
on what happened to me in the Old Testament sequence in in the seminary, was that
really, for the first time, by the use of these critical methods? The Bible did, the Old
Testament really did come alive, like it never had before. And I think in other words, did
you were able to combine in a really remarkable fashion, and a genuine evangelical
thrust, the past pastoral concern, and yet to employ critical methods of the Bible in such a
way that in the study of the Bible, is it the way that they never really stood in the way of
this, but really were a means of communicating precisely this. And then I think, Carl, that
it's obvious here that there are some real a continuity in the in the department of religion,
from the time was 10, flags to Quebec, that I really like to argue, I think that the pastoral
concern has been a very, very powerful motive in, in the work of the department, and all
the methods employed, may have changed, you know, the adoption of, frankly, a critical
approach to the scripture now being suggested to college students, that those changes
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have come about, not at the price of a past or concern, I think I'd be willing to argue that,
at one point, we felt that it was absolutely necessary for the sake of manifesting pastor
concern that these methods be adapted. I don't know what you want to make out of that.
But I think, you know, there's there's continuity, and there is change. But I think both are
terribly important here.
C
Carl Chrislock 19:16
I think I want to direct this is john, this is right along the same lines. And do you think when
you and I were students here together, that there was among the students are in the
religion department? Any great fear of approaching these critical concerns are
approaching these these problems, you see, biblical research? And you know that, I don't
know if I'm getting across the point of the question.
J
John Stensvaag 19:50
Well, Stensvaag again, I don't know if there was any, any real fair, but it just, it just was one
of the pressing questions at the time. When you and I first came here, it wasn't actually till
I had gone away to graduate school, that all this came home to me, because the way it
was taught both in the college and the seminary here, started was a very great teacher,
but he was very cautious. When it came to the employment of the modern, critical
methods, this historical approach to the Scripture, that was almost non existent, really,
here in the seminary at the time, was only after going away, that this whole new world
opened up for me, I was very thankful for the teaching I had from start up, that's a very
great teacher. And I know now and I think back that he was aware of these issues, but he
has, as I said, was very cautious and didn't, didn't really enter in on this. So whether this,
that we were that there was any problem or that we were fearful of anything, I don't think
this was so it's only that we hadn't become a live to it, we hadn't really become alert to
this whole world. I think. So that that did come later it for me anyway. And I as I look back
now, I think that I wasn't responsive enough for a period of time to what was happening in
the college community. This is my feeling as I look back now that I stayed at two too long
at a certain level and didn't really respond to what was going on sufficiently. I didn't have
those fears in the seminary. But I think I had some fears in the College of disturbing the
faith and so on. And I think, as I look back on today that this was not the wisest approach.
Now, there are ways and ways of doing it. I think that with a pastoral concern, you want to
do it in such a way that you just don't leave them up in the air, you know, and just shoot
their faith to pieces and leave it there. I think you have to do it in such a way that, that
you are helping them into a new understanding, not without not in the process, destroying
the foundations of their faith.
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J
John Stensvaag 22:35
And I'm not saying that's being done, but that's the tension you're in and trying to keep
the one and yet introduce each other. So as what Phil says, I think it's true that there is a
kind of nudity or pastoral concern, but in a new day, you have to express it in a new in a
new way. That's true. Yes,
P
Phil Quanbeck 23:02
I think that it might be true to say that the circumstance in which the Augsburg religion
department, or the Augsburg community in the 30s found itself was really of one sort with
other Lutheran colleges. I think that it was that the sort of religious instruction that one
done, and I speak, I think, from a great deal of ignorance here, but I have my impression is
that the sort of religious instruction that went on at St. Olaf was was not unlike that which
went on. It will be interesting to know if the cocoon you know if the movement didn't
happen as as soon at Augsburg as at some other places.
J
John Stensvaag 24:01
earlier [indecipherable]
C
Carl Chrislock 24:07
All right. You both said you're both agree that it happened earlier are required it
happened earlier. And Oxburgh any of you kind of tackle that? Is it the influence of the
tradition? Or was it the influence of
P
Paul Sonnack 24:22
I remember, I did pass on like I remember when I was when I first started teaching here at
Augsburg that Oh, Martin Hagglund and Theodore Hogan, Vic and those boys were still
teaching on itself. They were the big guns, and they were publishing books. You know, and
I read their stuff. And I thought it is for the birds, you know, good enough for saying, oh,
but not for deer logs. But I you know, I think there was a kind of a structure structured
thing, that these men were really concerned to lay on the student. Now, I don't I never felt
that that was really the case here at Augsburg. JOHN, what do you think about that?
J
John Stensvaag 25:14
I hope that I hope that's true that that we were in a way they have on guard here. Because
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I know what you mean, I remember Phil WX books, you know, on on the Old Testament, he
had a series of books on the Old Testament how I reacted negatively against this kind of
fossilized approach, complete unawareness of the critical method. And all of these, you
know, insisting on the mosaic authorship of all of the pen, a token all of that which we had
long since you might say abandoned. So I I hope it is true that we were not just in step, but
that we were a bit ahead. And I think that's it knew was true in the seminary, and therefore
it would spill over into the college too.
J
John Stensvaag 26:11
Yes, I think the climate was for your I definitely think so that there was a permissiveness
here that allowed this development sooner than happen in some of the other places
sooner than happen at Luther, for example. And Warren clambake who studied both
places, kind of a contemporary a man, you know, he found a much more openness here,
which was partly Dr. Swear to contribution, even though swelled up, as I said, didn't get in
on this. He he kind of opened the door by his way of teaching. Yes, he didn't. Yeah, Gerda
raised the question about Dr. Christensen's influence, and I didn't have him for a religion
teacher in college. So I couldn't say much about that in a seminary. We had him for a
short time before he became president. But he was a kind of a liberated spirit. It's true.
Although he he didn't, as far as I can tell, enter very much into this. This aspect, the more
historical and critical approach to Scripture. For him to the the thrust was nurture and
evangelism. As far as I remember.
G
Gerda Mortensen 27:47
This is Gerda Mortensen. Now I had many students come in to talk to me. During many of
these years, we had just gone through a war period regrowing after a war period. We were
in a metropolitan city. We had the leadership and the students came in said, I get the help
from Dr. Johnson spoke. Another one says, I get the help from Paul Sonic. I go, and here I
am a senior now. And I've gone through all this area of knowledge. And I get into that
class with Paul sack. And somehow he helps me think through all the issues in relationship
to life. And I just feel that now I I'm sort of orient the living again. And so I think that these
were some of the great things which happened. And both john and Paul were
tremendously influential in this because each student was an individual. And they would
go to one or the other of those that really wanted to help them. And and they found help.
And there was students who came and said, Ted, and the pastoral care idea. Today, I
found Christ in parks on its place, or today, I found Christ in Johnson.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:17
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JOHN, you mentioned George Sverdup and the openness, the non explicit reference to the
critical methods. Now, I never had you as a teacher in college, and then the college lives
and of course, at least that I remember.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:46
But I think that it would be true to say that even though you're interested in, in getting
across the content of the Bible, and in the not interested in talking about the, the the
critical methods, there are is your suggested a couple of ways of doing that. And one of
the ways is to do it with a with a background which presupposes, you know, the mosaic
authorship of the pinner to a certain understanding of the Bible. And there's another way
that simply presupposes an openness. And I think that that's what was going on in in that
decade. I don't know, because, but I have a suspicion that that was the case. And then
when I became a teacher here in 57, Bernard Christensen wasn't teaching in the
department or anything, he was engaged in administration, that was his job. But I think
that it's true to say that, neither you, nor he directed the way that I should teach. And I'm
sure that you enjoyed all sorts of criticism. And that you probably both you and he got
letters during that time, but did not really impose the burden of those letters on the
members of the department. And I think that that's the kind of openness that was going
on.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:18
Speaking, we've had many other testimonials to that openness, Mrs. Lindemann in
particular, valued a great deal. It was something that she didn't expect when she first
came here. And she she stayed, of course, much more than the three months, some of our
friends predicted that you would. Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 31:41
All right.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:45
These things here, speak up. I was, I was interested in your comments, john, about Bernard
Christensen. Now, I never had his courses in philosophy that I think it's a matter of regret.
But I I recall his handling of that one quarter of freshman orientation. And that opened up
a great many things for me, and I think, was a very liberating experience. You remember,
he took up the evolution issue in science, and I was really surprised at the time that that
we could get that much liberation here. I hadn't expected that, because the, the, the views
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some on evolution that I had heard and my own church and or led me to believe that this
was something you should really stay away from. And I'm, I'm wondering if on the basis of
some correspondence that I've seen, too, if more than he ever vowed if Brennan
Christmas and didn't feel like one of his functions here was to liberate people from some
of these hang ups. I mean, when he came here as a teacher in in 1930, you know, to make
them confront the, the world and its issues not to, of course, throw away the Christian
faith, but to do it within the context of the Christian faith. Do you do you have any any
any comments on that? Any further comments on that?
J
John Stensvaag 33:40
Stensvaag again. I don't really, it certainly is true, what you say about the orientation
course, where he talked about science and all of this, that this was the textbook itself, I
think was quite a contribution using that kind of a textbook. I'm only saying that in the
courses that I'm aware of. When it came to Scripture, he did not raise these critical
questions that we are raising. But then I think we ought to say to that some of the
questions that are being raised now we're not even in view at the time. Read Alex Jones,
kiss Schecter, you know, and form gearshift, and, and all of this, this hadn't even been
raised, or you couldn't expect, you know, that this should be be there at the time. And I
would say As for myself, I regret very much that I had such a poor background and New
Testament studies.
J
John Stensvaag 34:47
Because here at the seminary, it, it was just pitiful, really. And when I went away to to
graduate work, I did an Old Testament and New Testament was pretty much neglected, I
ordered some courses. So I'm but I said, look back now I feel that I would have been a
much better teacher in the college if I had had a better orientation and New Testament
studies. Because when I, when I taught the Old Testament in religion classes, then I did
introduce these critical things, the source theories JENP, and so on, I started talking about
that from the very beginning, when it came to the Old Testament, and the fact that some
of the material was perhaps secondary, and how we must understand Genesis one, not in
a literalist way and all that. But when it came to the New Testament, I was not really
aware enough of what was going on at the time to do the kind of work with the New
Testament material that I feel now that I ought to have done.
P
Paul Sonnack 35:55
Okay, this is an academic a comment, really trying be responsive to the question that
Terry raised a while back. She was wondering, you know, what was there about the
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situation here that allowed this, this sort of freedom to handle the materials came out?
When I'm probably just putting in a pitch, but I wonder if it can't, if it can't be said that,
that the artist tradition in which Augsburg stood really made possible, that sort of
freedom to approach this even the study of the Scriptures if from a critical standpoint?
Yeah, I'd be very interested to hear what what john has to say about that. I don't know
whether that's an accurate analysis or not. But it seems to me that, that, that pirate his
movement did not insist upon adherence to explicit propositions or affirmations. But it
insisted upon the life of faith itself, which can be expressed in all different kinds of way in a
kind of freedom about doing that, john, if you got any comments on it?
J
John Stensvaag 37:25
Well, that may be true, Paul, as your story and and you, you can see this more clearly than
I can. But I have to confess that I came out of a very fundamentalist kind of patriotism,
which I think was true of many of our churches, at the time I came out of a scene was
constant out of the church there. And my background, was pretty much fundamentalist
thinking of the Scripture as literally inspired and to be literally understood, and so on. And
it, I think, that characterized many of our churches. But at the same time, it certainly is
true. And here, Dr. Christensen made a fine contribution that stayed away from this, at
least here at the seminary and in a college stayed away from this fundamentalist stick
approach from the very beginning. This is where I was helped a great deal in my college
year, got away from that, and, and from this attempt on the part of men to to say just how
the scripture were inspired just how inspiration must be understood, and Dr. Christensen
helped a great deal on that, that we don't want to get so hung up in the method of
inspiration and all of that, that we that we lose the sword of the Spirit, as he put it that
that that the word no longer is allowed to speak for itself. And I should say that Dr.
Norberg helped a great deal here. He was here for a short time, but he came. And now as I
think back upon it, he for me was sort of the beginning of opening up the door, because he
taught Genesis here one year after sort of was, was passed away, and coming out of
Norway, and so on, which was safe, you know, conservative, still, he was able to approach
this in a very different way. And which helped a great deal. And he also talked to a good
deal of abandoned and freedom. And I remember one of the lectures he gave, and that's
a long time ago now. But he kept emphasizing that for us, as Angelica goes, the right
approach was to listen to Scripture, what the scripture said, what was in the Scripture, and
not come with a pre formed notion of what the scripture was, and what the scripture said,
you know, so that there was an openness to Scripture. And I think this helped a great deal.
For me, and I'm sure it helped for a lot of other people. This partly accounts for this.
P
Paul Sonnack 40:02
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I think, Carl, that that makes my point really quite clear. And that is that john Augsburg
somehow was different from Racine. See, what you found here was not a spirit of
fundamentalism. But there was a warm spirit of pirate ism, in which you and others like
you had the liberty to, to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and the internet
necessitated the employment of historical literary methods, critical methods of studying
the Bible, that was something that was permissible.
P
Phil Quanbeck 40:45
This is another comment along this film, one MC, that this is another common along the
same line. I think that if, you know in my encounter with a critical method in Johnston
songs Old Testament course in the penta to the historical books, if that wasn't radically
upsetting part of it part of that. The explanation that lies in the fact that I don't recall, for
example, in my home, ever might ever being told that Moses wrote, or ever being afflicted
with a discourse on inspiration. I think that that was I'm sure there were fundamental
mystic direct characteristics that were present. But I think that that's an aspect that the
problem is was quite important in in my own life.
C
Carl Chrislock 41:49
When you're talking about this, sometime when you men over in the archives, I'll have to
dig up some of the correspondence between father and son. Yeah. There's the most
interesting exchange between George SkyDrive. He invariably wrote to his father in
English, that's interesting. His father wrote back in Norwegian, when he first enrolled at
Yale. Now at DAO, he had a rather very a gated program, of course, this and one of the
courses that he had gotten into frighten him a little bit involved the critical method, I think
it was Old Testament, I don't know anything about the AIDS orientation in 19. Two, and I
don't really understand the issues involved here. But at any rate, he wrote home, and was
concerned, he was cautious about it. And it was very interesting, the comment that his
father wrote back, I think I'm representing it correctly here, he said that, that this whole
question of inspiration is a very difficult one, it advanced, small, he didn't want to take any
particular view, he wanted to remain open on it. And then at the same time, he added to
kind of a caveat that you could just, you know, a critically analyze the scriptures to death,
you would lose their their, they would lose their meaning if if if the only thing you did to
them was to subject them to a critical anatomy, even though critical scholarship had its
place. I think this essentially is what he said. Now, that brings up another question here to
you were talking about this, when you were saying that these were some of these
questions, you know, with respect to the Scriptures, were not pressing questions. You
mean, in the Oxford community? They certainly had been pressing questions in the
American church community, generally, for much longer than that hadn't they?
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J
John Stensvaag 44:03
Stensvaag the Lutherans. So we're slow, I think to get involved in this. They were Johnny
come lately. So when it came to this, and therefore I think, in our setting in our community,
these questions had not yet become vital, you know, pressing.
P
Phil Quanbeck 44:28
Again, I feel Quanbeck, again, speaking from modest amount of ignorance, I think that
might be asserted that, that these problems really didn't emerge in Lutheranism until the
decade of the 50s.
P
Paul Sonnack 44:46
I remember that. I don't know where this fits cow. But I think he does some wrong, I
remember when I was pulled out of a parish in northern Minnesota and sent down to that
God, this joint call the University of Chicago, you know, and I was exposed there to all this.
This critical method. You know, I think the only place where I had any comfort, any kind of
security was in Old Testament studies. Nowhere else and I think that what that experience
really meant for me, me, it's it really saved my life. At that moment, it really did. And I
think that what that experience meant for me was simply that, that if a person is going to
be a responsible teacher here in the 20th century, you must never hide that kind of stuff.
Because it's, it's it's going to appear sooner or later. So that I think I came to the
conviction that if I were to manifest any kind of religious concerns for my students, I
wouldn't Yes, I would precisely have to adopt critical methods just for that reason. I don't
know where that fits, but it I think it does.
C
Carl Chrislock 46:09
Well, it certainly does. Now, I'd like to go back a little here to unless there's somebody who
has any comments on this. I'm wondering if any of you gentlemen, in your experience, in
your experience within the religion department ever encountered, you know, any difficulty
or any? Well, let me back up just a little bit and say a while ago, it was postulated that
there was kind of a difference between the fundamentalism of Racine or the
fundamentalism one Domingo, for that matter, and the openness that you had here. Now
did, did that difference ever come to open confrontation? create any
P
Phil Quanbeck 47:00
Quanbeck: That's a surprise is...never. [laughing] It did happen, Carl, but in the year of our
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Lord 1960, was it that some of the things that the Department of religion had been doing,
and I think some of the things that it really had been doing for quite a while, came to
some visibility. I think some negative visibility, particularly through the creative work of
one of the members of the Luther and free church. And yes, that's right. That's right. I think
the No, I think that that's true, though, that the man who raised the question was, is, is a
man who whose roots didn't that didn't go back isn't to say that there weren't people like
him in the open Free Church, but at least in this particular instance. And we had a
discussion I think in, in Oak Grove Lutheran Church, I don't remember the exact date. But
certain criticisms of the department had been written down and the level that the
department and a number of people in the department then went to Oprah, one
afternoon, Oak Grove Lutheran Church, and we talked about some of the issues, we
thought we talked about some of the issues involved. I think that the, the issues between
the people who were raised them and the department were not solved. But I think that
there was a sense in which the visibility, the openness, which that confrontation brought
about was basically a good thing for the department. And I would, this is just kind of
guessing. But I would guess that it was good for not only for the Augsburg department of
religion, but for departments of religion at other Lutheran colleges as well. But that's only I
guess, there's nothing substantive to back that up.
C
Carl Chrislock 49:53
Chrislock speaking, I think we have a full transcript of that meeting down in the archives.
And I was wondering if you had any evidence of being good? Or having the having had
the benefits and effect on other religion departments? Did you get any any reactions from
any members of other religion departments on this? Do either of the rest of you want to
comment on on this general question? You know, it has seemed to me or did seem to me
that. I wondered, sometimes. I think I wondered about this a little when I was a student.
And I want and I've certainly wondered, since if, if we've always been courageous enough
in, in, in presenting our openness. You know, there seems to me there's such a lag between
there has been such a lag between college and congregation here in this regard. I don't
know if, if this makes sense or not, you know, on some of these issues.
J
John Stensvaag 51:16
Let me just say one thing. This is a something that has been told me again and again, that
our pastors after the merger with the American Lutheran Church in 1963, got involved in
some of the discussions about the Word of God, here and there. And they were surprised.
These men have told me that number of pastors, they were surprised at the kind of
fundamentalism that they encountered in some of the pastors of the same vintage, you
know, who had come from other seminaries like capital and Luther, who we're still
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troubled by some of the questions, which to our pastors, we're not problems and we're not
troublesome. So that the Lutherans alert and that group, you know, these real Am I say,
fundamentalists in approach to Scripture, anyway, they did not represent the men came
coming out of Augsburg and Augsburg seminary. Our men had really encountered this
and come to terms with it. And we're not troubled by questions which are very disturbing
to some of the other pastors of the same age.
P
Phil Quanbeck 52:49
Phil, would it be true to say, Jen, that that also, with regard to the association, that though
the larger number of pastors in the group in these Association, we're we're not to pastors
who would come out, let's say from 45. And then, would you?
J
John Stensvaag 53:16
Yes, I think that's absolutely true. You look at the at the man. Now, there are a few
younger man, like snips, dude, but he is a graduate of Saskatoon seminary, and not a
graduate of our expert seminary. And apart from that, john strand, graduated from the
seminary. I think the first year I was back here teaching. Right your ground? Yeah. And now
he started with an exception. He sort of an exception, I think
P
Paul Sonnack 53:58
you're racing currently pause how you're raising house question. Again. I've kind of been
mulling this over my mind. I don't really know how to answer it tomorrow. But I think
there's something to what you are suggesting. Namely, this that here at Augsburg, both in
college and seminary there was sort of freedom in relation to critical questions. But that
some of the congregation's in the Lutheran Free Church really didn't manifest that same
sort of spirit. Is that the kind of thing you're after? Now, I'm not really sure that I that I
know the answer to that. But I suspect that a great many of the other congregations in
the Free Church had felt the influence of the whole fundamentalist movement in
American Protestantism. And I think some of the difficulty with our friend out at Oak
Grove was the fact that in his theological poverty, he tended to identify a fundamentalist
position with Lutheran orthodoxy. And he thought, therefore, that, that he was being able
to impugn what the department was doing from the point of view of Lucien orthodoxy.
And that's the that's the irony of the situation. I I interpreted, the department is really
manifesting here in this way, a Lutheran concern for the gospel, then we had a
fundamentalist, you know, impugning us for being heretics, when almost really precisely
the opposite was, was the case. Now, you know, I'm just guessing here, I don't I don't really
know, I think that there was some distance and not in every case. Now Phil has eluded due
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to the fact that it was not the case in his home, I can testify to the fact that it was never
the case in my home, that that attention was called to certain prohibitions in thought and
so on. But But I think that fundamentalism did have something to say about the attitude
of a great many people in Lutheran congregations, you know, think of the great influence,
for example, the Moody Bible Institute and and parishes here in the in the Lutheran Free
Church Midwest. Well, does that. Does that move in the direction? Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 56:42
Quality when you say Lutheran orthodoxy, you're a historian, but I think Lutheran
orthodoxy tended to move in the direction of fundamentalism. Luther, himself was an
open spirit, you know, but I think after him, there came kind of a rigid, rigid kind of
approach to Scripture, which go out found a real response in fundamentalism, there came
to be a closeness between this kind of rigid orthodoxy that develop in the period after
Luther. But Luther himself obviously, would be a kindred spirit to this approach that we're
talking about.
P
Paul Sonnack 57:36
Well, let's listen. Let's be careful about those euro Puritans, you know, I don't want to
nitpick here. And I'm maybe the use of the word Orthodoxy is not important, though I
myself think that there's a vast difference between even 17th century Lutheran orthodoxy
and fundamentalism, really. But would you in general, would you agree with the point to
where the where the abstract that that fundamentalism did make its inroads and new
features congregations?
P
Phil Quanbeck 58:09
I think that the influence was, was felt, feel Coinbase the influence was felt via VA Moody
Bible Institute and via fundamentalist stick radio preachers, because that's the easiest
way to proclaim, and I think that is and radio and they would it be right to say the easiest
way to get monetary response from your listeners?
P
Paul Sonnack 58:54
You know, to make a theological point, I think that basic difference is that, that
Lutheranism has always recognized the priority of the gospel. And I think that
fundamentalism really has tried to approach an understanding of Christian religion,
really, in terms of law. That is to say, Christianity must be understood in terms of some
fundamental propositions which are unalienable and which have to be accepted. And
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that's got the force of law, not the force that gospel behind it. That's why I think there's a
difference between Lutheranism and fundamentalism. Even listen orthodoxy on
orthodoxy. God bless.
C
Carl Chrislock 60:00
You know, I've been Chris, like speaking, I've been very, and this is, I guess, aside from
anything that will concern within the history that is directly but I think somebody else with,
you know, with good theological grounding, would find the study of past persons
editorials and talk about it through the 20s pretty rewarding, because I think that talk
about it in the 20s, reflects the fact that fundamentalism was having an impact in certain
areas of the Lutheran Free Church. I think he was aware of this. And I think in certain
respects, he was trying to counter it. He had some very interesting editorials there he, he
had one editorial, for example, on modernism, he was wanting his reader that is readers
that this term was being thrown around entirely too, too easily, because he, he talked
about that there were some religious understandings that were had a liberal mutability
about them, you see, and cited some examples. Inside of the case of poverty, this was
much less inevitable today than it had been regarded before. And that, generally is
century before theologians had defended slavery. And on the evolution question, he, of
course, was during the scopes trial, he was very sympathetic to Brian, it has to be said, but
every time he mentioned, Brian, he would add the caveat that he thought he was crazy on
his notion of inspiration,
J
John Stensvaag 61:36
you know, [tape breaks in recording]
P
Paul Sonnack 61:47
testing One, two, testing 123,
J
John Stensvaag 61:56
Free Church didn't grow their couple of pastors and right. Wow, there was a resolution.
C
Carl Chrislock 62:22
Well, where do we go from here?
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P
Paul Sonnack 62:26
You know, there's another about both continuity and change in the department of religion
in terms of the adoption of critical method of studying the scriptures and so on. Would
there be any sense in exploring that theme of continuity and, and change with respect to
a view of the church's involvement in, in society?
C
Carl Chrislock 62:56
Yes, go ahead.
J
John Stensvaag 62:59
What do you mean, go ahead, explore?Well, I'd like to hear john SJ something about this. I
know Carla GU developed some views about, about the concerns of sweat dripping off
the dial in this regard. And I think that there has been a kind of a continuity of emphasis
here all the way through. I know when I when I came to Australia as a student in 1938, one
of the first guys I ran up against was that Joel Carstensen, who was teaching here at this
time, and he began right then and there to open up for me and brand new world entirely.
I'm not sure, however, that that concern was, at that time reflected in the religion
department. JOHN, what do you think?
J
John Stensvaag 63:55
I think that's probably right. And I was trying to think of the course that you taught when
you first started, it was something about Christianity and the world or I don't remember
exactly. But I think Christian faith in the modern world well, but that was the kind of a
beginning of breaking into this. So that I think, Paul, in many ways, translated part of this
heritage into a concern expressed in the religion department, which I think until that time
had been muted, if not absent, which we can see from looking, I think, at the offerings in
the religion department. The first year, we had basic Bible, the second year, second
quarter, it was church history. And I don't remember comparative religion. missionary
enterprise, but but the mission, our enterprise was foreign mission enterprise. And and I
don't think there was anything there explicitly, at least, which related the Christian gospel
to the world today, which Paul, I think began to do.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:20
Well, this is a very interesting theme to Chris, like speaking, to explore, you know, through
the whole history of the college is something that I'm, I'm very interested in, you find that
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one strategy when after I first came here, they certainly gave the impression of wanting to
be involved in wanting to take responsibility in the broadest way. I don't have any other
quotes here. But I think one thing that could be cited is the early history of focus on it. And
that was first public in 1877, as a means of helping the great fund drive of that year. And I
think it was discovered that after Don had such a flair for being a journalist, that it was
taken up again, and he took it up with swagger. And I've been through the files of folks,
when they were joined editors, from about 1779 to 1883. And I was really astonished at the
breadth of concern that they had. And they the paper dealt with virtually everything that
was of significance Astro Hungarian, German Russian relations, internal politics in Norway,
internal politics in France, anti semitism in Germany, the registers in southern politics. And
I, I wasn't aware of a terribly conscious effort, you know, to apply theological position in
evaluating all of these things, but at least this was a a concern of this. Now, it's also
interesting that they came under a great deal of fire, a great deal of criticism for being
involved in this, what was calling Redis, like a blog, a secular paper.
C
Carl Chrislock 67:27
And I don't know how much you, you gentlemen have read about the controversy in 1883,
when spend rude gunners left, but one of the big issues in that controversy got to be the
propriety of theological professors being involved with the secular paper. And, and, yeah,
very lately, it was very left to center by the by the standards of the time it reflected the
views of the vents through in Norway, you see. Now, later on, I don't know why, why this
happened. But later on. It seemed it and this was true after down to that they're
concerned on social issues, narrowed down very largely to the prohibition question. You
know, this became after dad was a member of the prohibition party, a very active
member, and there got to be sort of a one issue. deal here. It was just as if maybe. So, it
kind of like that. Now, I think here to you know, that, that there's some interesting things
about our experts environment, and the supporting churches environment with the, with
the prohibition movement. It was a little bit invited, it was a little bit ambivalent here. On
the one hand, there was this thing that I've talked about this narrowing of concern almost
entirely to that one issue. But then, on the other hand, you know, the, the prohibition
movement did involve association with some of the Reformed Church groups. And it
seems to me that the Friends of Augsburg in the early 90s and Gluten Free Church
afterwards was possibly a little more open to those associations on behalf of prohibition,
then, say the Norwegian Synod was a Norwegian sin, it actually took a position rather
hostile to belonged to temperance societies. This was being yoked with unbelievers, the
church, they said, was the true temperance society. You see, so it sort of worked both
ways. But I do feel like maybe this is a reflection of a beef that I had, when I was young, I
thought that there got to be, you know, this, this complete concern with this one issue to
the exclusion of other issues. So I in a way, this this broad and social concerned, I mean, to
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jump into hitch up with what you said, when you talk about Parsons, and so on. I think that
in one sense, this was a recovery of, of a value that we had had earlier and through
combination of circumstances had had been obscured a little bit.
P
Paul Sonnack 70:38
Yes. That was Paul Sonnack. Now, you know, apparently, I can't pick up the story here. I
don't know what happened in between, in between the time that the 18th amendment was
added to the Constitution, and what the Augsburg creeper was in there, you know, as a
kind of a parents medical remark. I think the whole prohibition movement is kind of a, an
interesting movement itself, at least in this sense, that the movement began, really as a as
an attempt on the part of the reformers to persuade people to stop drinking, or to quit
making this stuff. And it ended up really by enacting legislation, so that they put that
whole business over over the whole country. In other words, there's a shift here and tactic
from persuasion to legislative coercion. I don't I don't really know what that means. yet.
But I think that's a kind of a significant shift. But now, you know, let that go. I think. And I
learned this from Joe Torre since and but I think I really learned from Bernard Christensen
to, I learned a lot of things from Bernard Christensen. I think that what I what I learned in
the question of the relation of church to society, from from men like this, was that in the
expression of, of Christian love for the neighbor, one can proceed in different ways.
P
Paul Sonnack 72:22
One can seek for example, to, to ameliorate distress, you know, in obedience to the
biblical injunction to care for the widow and the orphan. And so and so, you can do this,
then by developing works of charity, great philanthropic enterprises. And I think that there
was no attempt on the part of these men to debunk that enterprise. But I think beyond
that, what they taught me is that, that if a Christian man is to live in love's for the
neighbor, he must also manifest some concern for the issues of justice in society. And I
think I learned from them, that the Christian therefore must understand something about
the structures of society and what they can do to an individual. And one has to add some
concern for the dynamics of social change. And all this kind of thing. I don't think that the
free church itself ever put that into effect. But I think that kind of a lesson was around here
at Augsburg way back then. And you know, as I see it, now, it's in the American Lutheran
Church, we're just really beginning to understand the significance of that rather crucial
distinction, I think. Now, I don't know what again, what to make out of all this. I'm just
testifying to the fact that this was well,
C
Carl Chrislock 74:10
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Are there any further comments? No, it is five o'clock and working days. The working day
is about past. You all have families to come home to any parting shots here?
P
Phil Quanbeck 74:27
I hesitate to put such a film one day Pardon me. I hesitate to put such a flippant comment
at the end. I I do had Joel Torstensen as a teacher. And one I think of the influential
teachers as I remember him in my life, so influential that when I graduated from college,
I'm sure you don't remember this, john. But when I graduated from seminary, rather, I was
debating whether or not I should pursue graduate course in sociology, and I remember
talking to you about this at one point. But but the column that I want to make is that more
radical than the critical method in my life was the discovery the Johnston's what was the
Democrats.
C
Carl Chrislock 75:27
Any other comments? I can add here, of course, that the Augsburg and the free churches
and the NEA reckoning one of the conferences, identification with with republicanism has
been much magnified by legend. Folk blot it, in effect was supporting William Jennings
Bryan in 1896, I think after dark had control of the editorial policy, then they spoke very
kindly of him, of course, when the prohibitionist candidate came to town, he was the one
that had the real answer, but they were sympathetic to Brian and to free silver, they were
oriented towards the populists. Earlier, UC. And I know that Peter Blegen told me that too,
that his father had been,
P
Phil Quanbeck 76:17
you know, a great admirer of
C
Carl Chrislock 76:19
Brian. And there's another thing that's kind of fascinating here over the years, I don't know
if you know, Charlie Stang along or have heard of him, if I told you about him. He was a
classmate of George SkyDrive class of 98. He went down to Colombia, took his PhD in
political science, he served in the diplomatic service for a while. And then he became a
professor of political institutions in Germany. Now he was, he was, you know, by the
standards of his time very far left. He was a supporter of Debs in 19, eight, for example,
and he, there's a whole final correspondence from him to George, unfortunately, George's
responses on there,
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J
John Stensvaag 77:02
you know,
C
Carl Chrislock 77:03
and he had the highest regard, Charles Stangl and did for for George's father,
77:09
he felt that he'd been one of the most important
C
Carl Chrislock 77:12
influences in his life and staying around was anything but evangelical, you know,
77:18
in.
C
Carl Chrislock 77:21
I think he probably I better not say, because
J
John Stensvaag 77:38
religion department and I am certainly appreciative of the need for change and the way
in which it's moved. But I am concerned that we don't lose sight of the nurture Hello.
There. So I don't know what's happening. But I but in this day and age as and every age, I
think we have to have concern for these people as individuals, and try to teach in such a
way that that we attract them to the Christian faith, and make exciting for them the
Christian faith. It isn't enough to be scholarly, I think this is important. And as Phil pointed
out, I don't think that ever was absent from the concern of the department. And now the
scholarly concerned finds other expressions as is necessary in our day but but just so we
don't get so wrapped up in the mechanics of the process, we cite the first person to to get
a raise of the greatness of the gospel and the greatness of the Christian now, enterprise.
This would be my concern, as it would be of any pastor. And I'm sure it's a concern of fail
as head of department that that with the other way don't lose this concern.
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RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
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Transcript of “The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College,” a speech by Dr. Joel S. Torstenson
delivered on 1966 April 13
Oscar Anderson 0:00
[recording cuts in mid-sentence] a major concern in his life. Dr. Joel Torstenson. Dr. Torstenson
is the Chairman of the Department of Sociology ... Show more
Transcript of “The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College,” a speech by Dr. Joel S. Torstenson
delivered on 1966 April 13
Oscar Anderson 0:00
[recording cuts in mid-sentence] a major concern in his life. Dr. Joel Torstenson. Dr. Torstenson
is the Chairman of the Department of Sociology and graduate of Augsburg. He has his Ph.D.
from the University of Minnesota. He is presently on leave from the college in order that he
might go further into this whole matter of the place of the liberal arts college in the emerging
urban culture. And I've asked him to give a brief address to this group today, on this subject,
"The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College." Dr. Joel Torstenson.
Joel Torstenson 0:39
I have a feeling that the pressure of time really makes it critical for me to condense my remarks
in some very few brief observations. And I feel entirely justified in this, since so many of the
things that I have intended to say have already been expressed by people far better qualified to
express them than myself. I was very gratified with a with the stance of Dr. Blegen's
presentation, the sense of linkages between the past and the present and with a with a deep
commitment to the future. It seems to me, this is one of the most urgent needs of our time, is
that instead of lamenting the perils of our time, somehow, with a sense of optimism that is not
naive, face the future with hope and vigor and creativity, and, and confidence.
Joel Torstenson 1:44
Now, I just want to say make a few comments about the way it looks to me concerning the
challenges of the city to Augsburg College. It seems to me that if even if the pioneers who
planned and promoted the transfer of this college from a small village in Wisconsin, to its
present location in the very center of our great city, had had the pre-vision of pre-vision of the
social reality of 1966, they could hardly have chosen a more appropriate and strategic place to
locate the beginnings of this institution in this area.
Joel Torstenson 2:30
If you look at the map of the Twin City Metropolitan Area--as it is now defined by the transit of
Metropolitan Planning commissioners, as Dr. Naftalin, had recently alluded to--you will find
that Augsburg College, together with the University of Minnesota and the other institutions
that now form the University Development Corporation, you'll find that we are located at the
very center of this great emerging metropolis. Some of us have been lamenting the high cost of
land, you know, around here, when it comes to getting the land and making ready for new
facilities. And I share that sense of frustration about the rather exorbitant price. Yet, it may well
be, though, I'm not a complete disciple of those who think that the market really determines
justice, you know, [inaudible] has something to say about the market, being the automatic
regulator of justice and human society didn't exactly confirm it. But it may well be that the high
price of land is really a pretty cheap price. Because it seems to me we have chosen a very
strategic place to carry on liberal education in the modern world. It is as if we have a ringside
seat at the emerging and emerging metropolis.
Joel Torstenson 3:10
For those who think that we ought to have you know, fanned out into suburbia back in 1946,
when this was a condition, an option, I think we have, and there were reasons for and against
this kind of a move. It seems to me that in retrospect, I think we can agree that it was a
fortunate thing, that those who believe we ought to stay right here, that their judgment
prevailed. Now, I suppose everybody won't agree with that. But it seems to me in the very
nature of the case, our location is strategic.
Joel Torstenson 4:40
Now. I think it is our cognizance of this fact that has led to the theme of this symposium, "The
Challenge of the City."
Joel Torstenson 4:54
Now, this is is not a unique event in our country, and one of the things that has impressed me
about the theme we have selected, and the motif of our first centennial celebration is that it is
a very similar to the kinds of themes that are reproduced in other centers of higher learning at
this very moment. When I was on the campus of the of MIT, I learned that at this very moment,
there is an Intercollegiate Conference on the Urban Challenge. So while we're talking about this
challenge of the city, right now, at MIT campus, students from the universities and colleges in
New England are assembled to talk about the urban challenge. The president of the MIT, in
lending his support to this venture, alluded to the fact that the challenge of our time is defined-leadership, for our time, enlightened leadership to direct and utilize our technique, technical
power, and prowess, to humanize, to beautify, and to make economically viable, our great
urban centers, I would like to have added one more dimension to that make politically viable,
our urban centers.
Joel Torstenson 6:22
Now, there are many other ways in which the kinds of things we're doing are being replicated
throughout the country, and the development of centers for urban studies throughout the
country is one of these, I am not going to say any more about this, because our time is really,
really up.
Joel Torstenson 6:42
But I would just like to say, now why is this such a strategic location? And what is the challenge
before us? It seems to me that the first instance we are strategically located to do a creative job
in building an image of the city that is appropriate and adequate for the time in which we live.
Our address this morning, I think, has helped to convince us, more than perhaps we have been
convinced already, that we all have a strong legacy of agrarian fundamentalism running through
our veins, or our psyche, or our nervous system, or where just where it is, you know, where
these centers are is something of a problem. But in any case, we are children of an agrarian
fundamentalism living in an urban age. And I think to examine this historically is a source for
emancipation. History is always potentially a source for entrapment as well as a source for
enlightenment and freedom. And I think this self-examination of our historical past gives us a
sense of freedom from the traps of history. I'm sure that there is a lot of work yet to do to
clearing out our mental fabric of some of the negative dimensions of our agrarian legacy.
Joel Torstenson 8:20
Now don't tell all my farmer friends that I said this, they are still deeply impressed by the
agrarian fundamentalism some. Now, I think once we have come to terms with an adequate
image of the city, then we immediately began to see the resources of the community that are
available to us, we are open to them. And I think we are living, literally in a in a laboratory for
liberal learning, which is really unsurpassed in the upper Midwest. And we share this with the
University of Minnesota and similar institutions in this part of the country. And when I
mentioned the University of Minnesota, it is it is an interesting thing, that that the pioneers
who decided to make the move here made two judgments, which I think have proven to be
sound.
Joel Torstenson 9:20
One is that that Minneapolis was going to be a big city, and a great city, and we ought to be
located in that. And it was also terribly important for the college to be closely related to the
University of Minnesota. These two judgments, I think, have proven entirely sound. And when I
make reference to the University of Minnesota, it just inescapable that we were just almost
were inspired by the resources that are available to us here. The movement of the library
across the river is a is a great convenience [audience laughs] which will, I think will have a great
deal to contribute to the life of this college, we kind of get it for free, and we should never
grumble about our taxes, [audience laughs] we should send a little extra contribution.
Joel Torstenson 10:19
And then the fine arts, the symphony and the and now we're going to have the museum I
believe the fine arts building will be developing on this site. I don't know all the developments,
but it's just a great thing to be so closely related to the university, both geographically and in
the other ways which have been emerging through our historical relationships.
Joel Torstenson 10:51
Now, the political structure, I cannot refrain from identifying the political life of this metropolis
as a great resource for liberal learning. I simply do not share the anti-government mentality
that has somehow accompanied the agrarian fundamentalist legacy. It takes about four
minutes to get down to the courthouse. And, you know, students can take a trip down the
courthouse and visit, you know--mayor's don't have anything else do but do entertain students
who want to interview them. [audience laughs]
Joel Torstenson 11:29
But to, to get so close to the centers of government. For educational institutions, our time is
terribly important. I'm sure that we haven't exploited fully the potential resources here, our
proximity to the state capitol, you know, the freeway is going to get us within 5-10 minutes
from that place if the freeways don't develop too much phacosclerosis
Joel Torstenson 11:56
The whole, the whole pattern of government, as a part, an indigenous part of modern
metropolitan life, is a tremendous resource for our students and for the faculty. And we are, of
course, close to some of the pioneering work that is going on in the urban ministries of our
churches. And during the last three weeks, I've stopped, as a rule, in every city at some of the
leading universities and two or three pioneering ventures of the church in the inner city, and,
and as well as at planning offices and governmental offices. And it's an inspiration to know that
religious leadership is beginning to take a new look at the city. And they are part of the
pioneering team and the front, the frontier of urban life in our time. Now, welfare institutions,
other educational institutions, health institutions, and so on are part of the resource at our at
our beck and call.
Joel Torstenson 13:08
Now, having said something about the community as a laboratory for living, for learning, I want
to say something about the community as an occasion for creative involvement. And I can just
name it really, but I think that there is no doubt that abstractions are important, but to
speculate only in terms of abstractions is inadequate in the learning process, creative
involvement in community life is certainly one of the most important challenges of the city for
Augsburg College. And I am glad that some of our students at least have become more deeply
involved in political life in the city of Minneapolis and this is I suppose, a nonpartisan
observation.
Joel Torstenson 14:06
They are becoming deeply involved in in this experimental religious efforts in some of the
special problems of Urban Ministry. They are involved in research, I suppose, every year that I
read, probably 100 research papers, in which the primary sources are taken from observations,
field trips, and interviews with representatives of the agencies and political groups and, and all
the rest that that are part of our community life. And then in the last point, I do want to make a
comment that it seems to me a, a an ideal setting for a creative encounter with the value issues
of our time.
Joel Torstenson 14:54
I have been reading literature of city planners a good deal in the last few years, particularly the
last year, and certainly one of the most critical issues that they are grappling with is what are
the values that are to guide us in the renewal of life in the modern metropolis. And it is
unthinkable to me, that students and faculty at an academic institution where the legacies of
liberal education that reached back to Jerusalem and Athens and Rome, a few other great cities
of our past, that students in this kind of situation should be unconcerned about the value issues
of creating a life that is viable, both in terms of our best judgments of human, what is a humane
society, as well as in terms of our judgments as to what is a viable, metropolitan life in the
future.
Joel Torstenson 15:57
I can't help but say a word about beauty. We had a professor in English when I was an
undergraduate student here who talked about three crucial values, truth, beauty, and
goodness. And I think they're all important. I don't think we have a debate about that. But I
have become increasingly interested in the issue of beauty. It seems to me ironic, that we
should have a renaissance in the interest of art and we we traveled through miles and miles of
monstrous ugliness to see beautiful paintings, you know. Yet somehow we must be part of a
community that is learning how to fashion the forms of urban life, so that it not only has justice
and truth and, and all the other values building, but also a sense of beauty.
Joel Torstenson 16:53
And to make--this is not the city of beautiful movement, but it's a part of the value orientation
that seems to me a liberal arts college must be concerned about. Well, those are some of the
reflections that I feel prompted to make concerning the challenges of the city to our college.
[audience applauds]
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