RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Wed, 08/07 12:51PM
94:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, father, recall, impression, remember, money, mother, augsburg, dad, relationship, question,
fact, ran, president, instance, school, family, home, person, interested
SPEAKERS
Unknown, Gerda Mortensen, ... Show more
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Wed, 08/07 12:51PM
94:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, father, recall, impression, remember, money, mother, augsburg, dad, relationship, question,
fact, ran, president, instance, school, family, home, person, interested
SPEAKERS
Unknown, Gerda Mortensen, Carl Chrislock, George Sverdrup
G
George Sverdrup 00:10
George Berger up some of the former president was for George smarter Ben Graham,
some of the another former president I should probably say as a means of I Dr. is a means
of identifying myself.Presently, teaching at Washburn, high school Minneapolis, and in the
field of mathematics,
C
Carl Chrislock 00:35
and also a graduate of Augburg--
G
George Sverdrup 00:36
graduated from Augsburg, right, and the University.
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:41
Any [inaudible]?
G
George Sverdrup 00:44
Masters in the field of educational curriculum instruction.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 1 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
C
Carl Chrislock 00:52
Well, George, there's one question he would really like to ask you, here, to start with, right.
It's a remark I think that has been made by, by some men who feel they were friends of
your your father, and that is the whole question of whether there there was a side to him
that wasn't readily visible in his public role in his role as a leader in the Lutheran Free
Church and his role as president of Augsburg. I don't know if that sparks...?
G
George Sverdrup 01:30
I would say that if there were something probably characteristic of his role that these
other people might see and not see. Probably first come to mind I think he was a
tremendous family man. Very, very strong feeling for his immediate family as well as the
family in general. He wasa great sense of humor, very compassionate, understanding, say
is quite mild mannered. If there was something which I sort of had in the back of my mind
that I would like to do, I felt more assured of getting dad's okay then mother's I think in
that regard I probably felt a little bit closer to him.
G
George Sverdrup 02:28
And I would say he would take time out from all his busy chores and whatever it might be,
to pay attention in small ways to each member of the family. And I could probably
characterize this in one way. For instance, when my sister Catherine was in nurses training
in Milwaukee at Christmas time, mother would fix up the chicken or fix up the big box, and
dad would get on the train, use his pass go overnight to Milwaukee so she could have
athis delivered to her personally in an be back in town. This happened every year when
she was out there.
G
George Sverdrup 03:07
And I can remember even as a youngster when not much more now, when I was in school,
and he would frequently leave town. But today, I knew that was going to be home. I
started running the minute I got out of school until I got up to the house. Every time I
would never walk because walking meant that, you'd just waste a little more time that you
could be with him. And this is a kind of family life. And very jovial, because I know in many
instances--grandma lived on the third floor and she was a rather strict person very
straight-laced, and many times I know she would become somewhat disturbed about the
fact that she thought maybe at the dinner table or something we were having a little too
much fun downstairs. She'd probably hear us laughing and having a good time and in her
old strict Norwegian way she wasn't so sure but what maybe this should be a more serious
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 2 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
time of the day. But we'd have--and he'd do many take time out to do little things.
G
George Sverdrup 04:14
I can remember he came into the Old Main here which stood at this point. And he went
down and I think from fuzzy or something he picked up all six-by-six above so but and a
half long. And he came home and he and I, we carved a little boat on, I still have it. And
he raised me to say Oh, but he would take the time out to do this. And is extremely close
family relationship, say about as close as a person can get.
G
George Sverdrup 04:45
And it's justand I would say this, I think this carried over I suppose in one sense or just the
other people aren't aware of this, but I think many people probably were we going to
carry this over. Was everyday living with other people extremely considerate. I don't really
know this little church we had down on the corner, Mrs. Smith. And many people thought
she was quite different but every time dad would come home we've always seen her he'd
go over and say hello. Just been passing, and this meant more to that woman, I found out
afterwards. She just was thrilled the fact that you would take time out and go back and
just say hello. And I'll say promptness. Our whole family was organized in such a way that
time was of the utmost you didn't waste time.
G
George Sverdrup 05:42
If you made appointments at three o'clock it was three if I can remember at noon
sometimes mother we're going to have the prepare some meat which had to go on was
short time on she could look out the window was the second floor and she could see when
dad came out the back door for the main building. And she knew it was time to put it on
because by the time be at the house and everything, and it wasn't a burden. I mean, it
didn't become burden. This was just it was a courtesy to one another. I think its
effectiveness. And I would say to you I think that dad had a huge respect for the dignity of
man. I think it's just very unusual for the family. I said, Oh, yes, I think so.
C
Carl Chrislock 06:39
It sort of sticks in my memory. I could readily Check. Check this I think it was Simon
Berkowitz. And maybe it was a tribute that he paid to him and his final service you talked
about. That is concerned in later years had been the way some people raise their
children.Tyranny exercisedby by some people in our culture over over their children seem
to feel very deeply on that.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 3 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 07:08
I would think if I, we did, Of course, as far as we were concerned, there was no tyranny. I
think unconsciously we learned something which I still feel very strongly about, and not
only your daily living, but it also in your religious life, you should do what is right, you
should obey because of love for a person, rather than because of fear of punishment. And
I don't mean to say that if we got out of line that we were put straight, there wasn't any
question about this, and we knew when we, but I think we were more concerned that we
were going to do something which would be against his wishes, or something which he
wouldn't quite approve of. And I think this feeling of respect and concern for dad was so
strong that we would moralists do what was right on this basis because I think Garrett
knows, probably as well as anybody but you can't describe I don't think the feeling
between that and the rest of the family. It was just something you don't describe. It was
the most wonderful experience that person could ever have and one which you would
never forget. But I would think what you say is right, I hear you didn't have the fear of the
whip over you and any sense of the word.
G
George Sverdrup 08:59
Not a job which was necessary but as most of the time you couldn't think of anything else
on a spur the moment and they looked out the window when you saw this and and then
he was here judgment when you talk to you there. We think we are and then we come in
and tell them and then 10 minutes later No, no we get together then this would be be our
reward. And I went to some of his off the job, hobbies. What did he do golf was interested
in sport is very much interested in golf. He he had sort of a standard group of golfing
partners he had Harold Martin and Marius Dixon. We're very cool. So John Blegen and Si
Melby would go out. And then on occasion, man from down in your country hammer
hammer. And we go out quite often bought early in the morning and I, you take me with
him. I started by throwing the ball out or catching and we go early in the morning, naked
back, probably all 9-10 o'clock in the morning, the cells that get back then they go to their
respective offices, and carry on for the day. But he was very much interested in involved.
And actually at one time, he was an avid stamp collector.
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:14
So you recall the time that Mr. Hammer invited your family and me to cut down to
Zumbrota and play or near one and they go and they had around the Gulf. And y'all man,
I tried a little bit, but we we sat down with Mrs. Hammer him and had to pick us but you
ran around with your dad.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 4 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 10:37
I remember one time going down, I suppose was being as young as I was, what impressed
me is I recall, he brought out a pan of ice cream from the Creamery, or soda refreshments
afterwards, and that was real ice cream. It wasn't this.
G
George Sverdrup 10:54
Boy, I mean, it was the it was the real ice cream. Everybody was quiet, very much
interested in these two aspects. And I was I've been told many times that you know that
he also was somewhat of a mathematician. And I've been told by others, sometimes prior
to a meeting in his office, a board meeting, they would come in and if they came a little
early, he'd be sitting there trying to work out some difficult math problem which for one
reason or another by sort of challenged, and I mean, he wasn't teaching math, but he
started this was a little era of recreation for him to he likes to fish to. Allah didn't get much
chance to do it, really. But we used to go up once in a while to Hollis IL. And they had the
launch resort. So we go out and fish there. How about missing? You remember his being
was interested in politics. Particular, I don't recall any interest in politics other than interest
in the everyday the the interest that a citizen should have. And I would this is something
else that always stuck with me from home. That mother could talk over the issues in the
politics today. But as far as how each one voted, this was never exchanged. Thank you was
complete privacy, you know, where he respected her right to vote as she wished. And she
respected his when they went to the polls, this was a private affair. And this is all admitted
impression on me for what little I know of it. But I see it more now that we can discuss the
issues. But when it comes to the polls, you exercise your privilege in New York. But other
than this, as far as any participation in this nothing I there any indication or have ever
heard of any.
U
Unknown 12:51
Something kind of interesting that I've seen in researching is the key was on the board of
the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children to animals and children. Before it
G
George Sverdrup 13:01
Oh? was news to me, it was a joint oh? Uh huh
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:08
letterhead reads Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and children
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 5 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 13:14
[Laughing] And put them in the same category?!
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:18
Anything to do with the Temperance Movement and this now I know that Scerda also that
we admired him
G
George Sverdrup 13:24
He Scerda? Oh, yes, they did not. To my knowledge, he had no what you might call active
part in it. Not the some of these people not to my knowledge.
C
Carl Chrislock 13:35
Well, you know, I have been in other research I have come across letters from from your
father that was this was particularly 1914, you know, that would be before our time. Right?
And well, it is these letters were in the in the Sagin papers. And he did in 1914 it was a
question of whether Sagin should run for the governorship or representing really drive
forces. And the Republicans had nominated, or the Progressive Republicans had Sput
forth the candidate whose name was William Lee for for the nomination and your father
was urging Saging, you know, to support me along with a great many others.
C
Carl Chrislock 14:20
Well, now, um, there's some There's another question here. I'd like to ask it, did you do you
have the impression or do you remember whether the, the administrative burdens as such
or weighed heavily on him? You know, there's some people who think that he was
supremely the scholar and, and, and that
G
George Sverdrup 14:21
Oh, I see, uh huh, boy.
G
George Sverdrup 14:48
I would say this in that regard, I would say I don't think he cared much for the
administrative part, I think this is something he felt went for the job. And of course, he was
called here at the death of his father shortly thereafter. He was not he was an
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 6 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
archaeologist, he was interested in Semetic land riches. This was not as big interest to you
as offered as I understand it a the opportunity to on the faculty at the University [of
Minnesota] right And incidentally, as I understand even discussed this some Welcome to a
full course he is extremely productive. But I think he had a very, very strong feeling within
him that this was a both a calling and a duty that they had called and this is where he
should spend and I'm sure that the administrative part of it as near as I can remember and
an untold and as you get picked up from conversations was not very enjoyable for him
because as you say, he was primarily a scholar. Quite a scholar at that as I understand
and--
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:00
You can certainly remember him reading at home.
G
George Sverdrup 16:02
Oh yes! That standpoint In fact, you know, it's a strange--people that come over a as
people are many people seem to like to come to the house just to sit and discuss with him
topics. In fact, I can remember, probably the last time or two years ago Nori caught a
storyline tells it remembering how dad he used to sit and listen to the old Bishop starlet
and dad Converse on theological matters, and apparently impressed him very much. This
was one of his recollections of that. And people used to like to come and, and discuss
various topics. And, of course, I was too small to know what was going on. But I will sit and
listen.
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:48
I know that a company somebody who could talk the record, man, I know good discussion.
I was, you know, it was wonderful, go to meetings, and go over here.
G
George Sverdrup 17:04
I as I say, I was I don't know, I was told by someone outside the family and nothing, that at
the time he went to university, his grades, his record at the university was something I was
told it was as strong as it ever been given. And
C
Carl Chrislock 17:23
Well we saw some letters from his father, to to him at the time, he was a young father was
so jubilant over the fact that he had completed his Ma and such record time, and was in
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 7 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
1901.
G
Gerda Mortensen 17:39
And then he said himself that he sluggish and his weight
G
George Sverdrup 17:44
Was I understand he, of course, money was quite a problem for him, he had a pass on the
railroad delay went up to Niagara Falls. And I guess many times he would get on and take
the overnight ride. And this was for the night. If you happen to be down.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:03
So that he had a place to stay.
G
George Sverdrup 18:03
This I don't know all the details up. But as I was told by the family that this is what
happened. And of course, then he tutored on some of the Vanderbilt's some of the very
influential people, at least financially speaking, go up to their summer place up in Canada
and tutor them as a means of getting a little money. Because the money he didn't have.
And it was quite a problem for then he got on with the school of archaeology. And this, of
course, apparently really took his fancy.
C
Carl Chrislock 18:38
Well, now in in later years, did he have the opportunity to continue those, those scholarly
interests. Now, in one way, I suppose there's a link up between what he was interested in
and what he did at Augsburg. He taught the Old Testament seminary there and and then
will be connection there with Semitic languages. But I'm, I'm wondering, did you have the
opportunity, for example, to go to learn at conferences, some biblical archaeology, or...?
G
George Sverdrup 19:05
To my knowledge? No, I think he was always active in the American archaeological
society. And I do have a small print at home of a paper which he wrote for the society that
we call the date for this already. But I think the basic interest was there. He was not out of
contact, for instance, some of the people in eastern schools, they wrote a book on
occasion it was sent to dad for, to read through and four comments here and there. And I
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 8 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have one or two of them at home with his stories and Madeline employed, was the one
who was designed for his
C
Carl Chrislock 19:45
Was the divided constituency on on this, there were some who didn't want to, to, to move
fast. And I think there were some who felt that your father didn't move fast enough. But I
sort of get the impression here that he knew where he wanted to move. And was
proceeding at a pace where he could take the bulk of the constituency among with him. I
would, I would think it was always my impression that he
G
George Sverdrup 20:15
When dad would, they would listen, I think people had a tremendous amount of
confidence in him in this regard. And here we go right back to I think the whole thing he
had near as I can tell a tremendous facility for bringing those about him with him. And
other words, I think this faculty and those will work with him I nearly I feel admired him to
the extent where they would give great sacrifice. And believe me, they did as her when it
was as well as anybody tremendous sacrifice. But if they could work with him and work
towards an Africa gaining the confidence and the respect to people,
G
George Sverdrup 21:01
I think this was
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:02
the hub of probably a fairly good sense of timing as to, you know, when when it was when
it was feasible to make a suggestion or withhold or whatever she would
G
George Sverdrup 21:15
probably know more
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:16
about the annual conferences, but issues with come up now I started to go in the in 1917.
And I visit every annual conferences, trip to history, booth and free church. And I can
remember those days, there will be those who were so ready to talk out of the top of their
head in a very thin layer, rain matter. They were generally the first to get up and shut up.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 9 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
And then others would talk and then those who were very headstrong convictions, one
way or the other, they would get up and talk. And long after everybody's got a gun. This
often their mind. Then the chair which I look over in the direction to see if he didn't see the
sometimes called.
G
Gerda Mortensen 22:12
And then you could just understand how he could analyze. Never be little quiet isn't said
even if it was a very little because he was too great for this. And then he will somehow
point out the directions, maybe a middle path, maybe it would go one way, but he would
most show that he was not a man of many words. He occasionally in those early days,
resorted to Norwegian but this was very seldom fairly spoken. But it's the situation
demanded, because he knew some people didn't understand English very well who were
very hot about this, but he knows. But this kind of clarification.
U
Unknown 23:00
Did you speak Norwegian in your family at home?
G
George Sverdrup 23:05
Only a very limited, this goes back to something in a sense related to what Gerda just
said. I remember dad saying this. He said we are in America now. English is our language.
And consequently, we spoke English dad and mother both fluent Norwegian, and they
would speak it on occasion. But here you have a strange situation, I suppose. If there was
something they didn't want me, for instance, to know, they would speak in Norwegian. But
this never bothered me. And I questioned it and never to the point of wanting to know
because I know this was something that I wasn't supposed to know. And they knew what
was best. And so this was it. So they would speak Norwegian on this occasion that
grandma used to become. She's sometimes a little provoked at me because she thought I
should know more Norwegian. I remember dancing. We're in America, we speak English.
And I'm not so sure about what he was right. And this did not mean that he was not
bilingual or trilingual, whatever it should be. He was he certainly would promote this. But
you must be a citizen of the country or whichever part
G
Gerda Mortensen 24:16
of this is coming into that little Americanization right.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 10 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 24:21
So we did not. But I would say something else to it. This is just digressing for a moment,
but I can head home wants to know out of bed early, then I would get up before our
mother me to have breakfast. And of course, it never gave me coffee, but a bad rap. He
might put a little bit about. I don't know if I should say it or not. But just from the
standpoint of just to get a relationship. I think this all reveals that type of a person. He was
fantastic. I don't think I've ever greater man ever lived. More it'll be but if we had hard
boiled egg or something, his mother wasn't around.
G
George Sverdrup 25:03
Breaking that's sort of gave a little comradeship here that
G
George Sverdrup 25:09
it's just fantastic. But now somebody's going in his office wouldn't hardly would hardly
think of him was cracking apparent boiled egg. No, I yeah. Several times tonight. You
couldn't find out what he would do with this. And I? And as I look back at it, it wasn't
haphazard. I'm not sure. But what there's a design here, I would expect to sort of put
another thread between us doing the wrong. Mother was more proper, a nice respects.
She was quite a proper and a wonderful woman. And when she wasn't around, and we
kind of have a little shenanigans, because she kind of frowned on it.
G
Gerda Mortensen 25:51
But I think if I'm right, every dinner two people at the table.
G
George Sverdrup 26:00
I bet you
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:01
might have question. It was Sarah
G
George Sverdrup 26:04
napkin, right?
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 11 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 26:06
She was a master at this. She could set a table like few people ever could. And I think and
part of it due to the fact that she took pride in it. She was proud of where the table Look,
she was proud of the way the food was prepared.
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:26
And then she shared this hospitality because they were the hotel for everybody.
G
George Sverdrup 26:33
Holly ever made a note would you see and what you see here? And this is another
impression that I have, I guess partly from some of the sources I've dug into it. And also
partly from you know, my, my own memories. Yes, you already certainly that there was a
tremendous regard for the priorities, you know, the right way to do things, and I think it
was that written guard that gave them gave the students sometimes the impression, you
know that he he was pretty reserved, and there wouldn't be any overstepping of bounds
or Oh, no, in in, in the ordinary relationship. So I think so I, for instance, I would say in
regard to what you saying is another, I suppose our law rule of thumb of the household
was this. There are many things which are let's put this way dad was not as strict as many
of the people in that day, and there is an older people. And we always had this or as a
cardinal rule of our conduct outside the house. And that utility, right? We must not do
anything which would in any way. Trouble the other person. I mean, mentally, for instance,
sir, you might have a certain activity, or some group of people might think would be
wrong. Basically, what he would think would be fine, but we're rather strict. But rather
than go ahead with what you thought you should do, because of this position, he wouldn't
say, well, maybe this activity is all right, there's nothing really wrong with it. But there are
those who feel differently. And in my position in our position, we really don't have the right
to offend them. And this was pretty much a card rule. And here again, you talked about
the preacher child in the park, this was a little bit of a but with his mind it. I mean, I never
did this, this never bothered me. But I know this was a cardinal rule, you do not offend
those around you. Because so doing it would be wrong, even though you're you yourself
might think a certain activity, where would be alright. Would that be on issues like
attending movies for on issues, such as attending movies, for instance, I mean, to add to
was not opposed to movies.
G
George Sverdrup 28:59
But I don't know my recollection of that everyone to move in Minneapolis.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 12 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 29:04
They may have I don't know that. I don't recall this, but I do know,
G
George Sverdrup 29:09
going around tales outside of the school, that when he and burn Fest, and some of these
fellows would meet in Chicago for a meeting. If there wasn't a movie, which they thought
was a particular interest and has some value. This is where they would attend it not here.
Because someone here might see them go in and be offended. But there they can do it in
the hot and this was cardinal rule. We didn't we just didn't do. And what about the the
legitimate theater, so coming on the stage to do maybe the west side on the west coast.
And here again, is matter of finance, and we just didn't have money to do anything. It
wasn't a question of whether you I have never heard them. I don't ever recall hearing
much pro or con on this. I suppose it was something which maybe it wasn't as problems as
now, aside from the fact that as far as are going that was another question. There just
wasn't any money for? Well, as I recall, did your father ever drive a car or have a car? Yes,
he had a 28 we were gonna leave at one time. And finally sold at the fussy It was quite an
old car. I can remember we used to go to my nominee once in a while to see the Andre
isms. And we'd go down to cannonballs. And once in a while to see the hammers. And of
course, the little fish stuff present monta mango or an event that you look forward to the
year around that and I'm sure guarantee went down on certain instances where this
G
Gerda Mortensen 30:47
is crystal supervisor.
G
George Sverdrup 30:50
Oh, that was a big deal. But anyway, he had this old car but we I'm ever doors and if you
went much over 4045 miles an hour, you burn out the bearings. We couldn't do. Sosa
finally got rid of the car sold at the pharmacy. And then in 37, the school bought a car 37
460 horsepower there that he was to use and soliciting funds, but outside of that was
always walking, or we take the speaker on Sunday afternoons, we go down to walk down
Franklin Avenue to the Art Institute you'd like to go in and that little children's program,
which I would go to and then or once a while we'd walk over to the bridge for the Sunday
afternoon symphonies. But wherever these
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:35
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 13 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
companies were
G
George Sverdrup 31:36
at Northrop. Yeah, we'd go over there, but it was walking that I know that the trip was still
there was
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:43
whenever the
G
George Sverdrup 31:44
symphony played, they played at the Lyceum, oh, well, this was a prior template sale.
G
George Sverdrup 31:51
But I can remember is
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:53
that you could get sending asking ticket for that thing.
G
George Sverdrup 31:57
That was a weekly goal was I don't want the artist to do it was I said we'd walk or take the
street car. I can remember vividly, once in a while when you go out to visit people Sunday
afternoon, or Sunday was a family date we visited ran the same. And you all Yes. Right. So
this was Sunday, it was your family day. And but if we go visit somebody and once in a
while they had a car, they say well, may we drive you home? And sit there with you? Oh, I
wish. No, thank you very much. We will take the streetcar. I couldn't remember it. So
what's it about like needling him a little bit, I had an appreciation of art, all very much so
very much. So. In fact, we had sort of a standard joke around house when he when he
remodel his office when they cut down the bookcases and put the desk and then he was
given a certain amount of money to go out and buy some fixtures and furnishings. And he
bought a couple of what he referred to as advised us to save a solid, be we're all no this is.
This is fine. But I think as far as RT, culturally, a great appreciation for our music.
Gerda Mortensen 33:15
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 14 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:15
Over here
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:18
present innovation University sent
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:22
over here. Can
G
George Sverdrup 33:33
we repeat? No, I think we were all we're all given them very strong sense of that which is
good in life and society quotes what we refer to as good advice.
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:47
Very much so well, he have in his files, there are letters
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:52
from him to the railway company, I think it was the Great Northern, he didn't have any
money to I paintings for old name, the hawk the halls. And so he wrote requesting some
prints apparently that they had of yellow stone 70 or something like this, you know. And
the official in the on the railroad wrote back and said that they didn't have any of those
large funds that have to even have to depend and be satisfied with named size of the
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:27
I some, I think somewhere in archives or in there must be they must finish
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:34
that he was he was after getting some works
G
George Sverdrup 34:37
of art for the for the halls of old name, I would say it was a very sensitive verse, very
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 15 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
sensitive.
G
George Sverdrup 34:46
But I think some of us on the campus here were very conscious of the fact that
G
George Sverdrup 34:52
that he stood ready to encourage your, you know, activity of this kind. I was especially
interested in debate. And I remember the first time I ever debated in front in the front
rows. I think he was really interested in that kind of activity. I would think so. And now
what about what about the intercollegiate athletics? Did you ever? Did you ever
remember any discussions or anything about his position on that? The only a little bit
cool. Um, I was a little bit cool, because I think he was very pleased when Jimmy Peterson
approached him on the intramural program, I think this was something was he was very
much in favor of his I think he felt that this was more what he thought the athletic
program should be more people participating, participating for fun and
G
George Sverdrup 35:46
recreation the little than that, right.
G
George Sverdrup 35:51
And this was, I think, basically, as I I can vaguely remember as being quite pleased, Jim
Peterson was employed. And of course, in those days, it was rather frustrating Prague's for
a program to be honest about it. But as far as attending games, now, he probably didn't
attend as many games as many of the people. And he had this point of view. It was this,
he said, he felt that the students saw him all day long. And they were with him and is more
or less is present all day long. And they should be free of this. In the evening, or extra
hours, he felt that the president
G
Gerda Mortensen 36:34
should not
G
George Sverdrup 36:37
always be with them. And yeah, I think he felt that they were more free, and that they
could relax more if he wasn't around. So actually, as far as athletic events I don't ever
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 16 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
recall as attending so many. And I do recall this point of view, saying the fact that they see
me all day long, they should have a little reading.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:00
I
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:03
wanna junction to me, and I came wherever the students go, you go.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:11
And convention, I went long as they were meeting I was
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:18
then I was fairly, I was younger than some of it
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:23
was of their generation.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:28
But there's one other thing, I think, to that, on rare occasions, this is terrific. And I was
willing to spend an evening with you folks. And then he would like sort of the part where
they get a little rundown on everything that was going on. But I had a feeling that he very
seldom to any of his administrators business home. No, he left the campus this didn't
concern the family of America with an issue. Like Should we take chairmanship of this
drive and all of it then, on the other hand, the day to day things, and all of this this was
taken,
G
George Sverdrup 38:09
I just remember when he came home, we just had fun.
G
George Sverdrup 38:12
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 17 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Not to that. But just everything was was just playing pleasant. And I do think too is in
language, you said the I think he did have the facility of delegating authority. In other
words, he shared it where the you know, women and this was her job. And if you're going
to hire let her do it. I mean, what this is all is my impression that he he could he would do
this though it was he didn't feel he had to be directly involved with all the little details.
And like she says, I don't ever recall is bringing much to this. Not in the family when we got
together as a family it was. And he took an interest in what each person in the family had
done that day, or what were you doing, or I mean, each person's activities. And IF
remember, you see how 11 years old when he died. But nevertheless, even at that age,
when you consider all his problems and things, all the little things I did, I was made to feel
that they were very important. And they were to me and I think the fact that he gave me
the impression that they were important added also important to them only and also
began to get the spirit between the two. Well, now did you feel that he had the facility of
throwing office cares when he was at home? Or did they weigh heavily on him? I mean, in
spite of the i i think they probably weighed heavily on him but I don't think he I don't think
he let me know and I feel this way about it. Because I was even Chris you can't be as
interested in a school or a program or an activity as he was as interested in people
without having these problems way on you. You can't divorce yourself from this. Or Nikki
at the facility at least outward they gave me is the impression as a family that the cares
were gone, but I'm sure of it. it's inconceivable that you could have as high regard for
people and human dignity and the personality and not have the same way on you
because it's a part of the all the time
G
George Sverdrup 40:21
were you were you aware of
G
George Sverdrup 40:26
these illness before he really came down was he and all the first I would say this in
retrospect mother used to say that and I wouldn't notice it right off the table he would sit
with one arm it was not as mobile as the other I don't not mean this was any paralysis, but
it just seemed to maybe something was bothering the first that I knew of his me exactly.
was at home the night that he went to bed that was when he got the attack before his
mother was in the hospital members My Sister Catherine herself Dr. Marber however he
himself was aware of this was had been aware of it for some time because he'd gone to St.
Louis to see life and katha member Catherine polygon I remember this because I was
quite enemies. I mean, they go down there but it was sometime I don't I don't recall but
then up to a year or more but apparently you've been to a doctor and I know that at this
time he was aware of but I found out since and one of his reasons for his trip was to talk
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 18 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
this over with life because apparently he had made some arrangements with life that if he
died and he apparently they thought that this was coming quite soon the Blake was kind
of very smart. I supervise the situation for a while, which he did. And so then we had the
that was the first name place I'd ever had. That was just the last moment. I can remember
I the next morning I was in the hospital. And I came over dog spray came over the main
building went down the basement, kind of hidden the room because I was not willing to
see them take him from the house to an ambulance ran down the basement of the main
building. I remember that just was rude. Password Jimmy Peterson was in the hospital.
Jimmy it hadn't happened to me at the time because I can remember going up to see that
he was the oxygen death and he was pretty successful. And mother was in the room next
rope in the camp.
G
George Sverdrup 42:48
And
G
George Sverdrup 42:49
I can remember I went into see Jimmy and I remember Yes, all they had was
G
George Sverdrup 42:55
there was a very
G
Gerda Mortensen 42:59
fine relationship Perry unless your sister's friend. They came in I think Margaret Hulbert.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:06
She just because they were accepted in a wonderful way in the family and
G
George Sverdrup 43:12
the boys just like another another member of the family.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:17
But I can remember that call.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 19 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:20
He wanted Jenny script on focusing the last card
G
George Sverdrup 43:23
for the opening chapter.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:28
And she can have it neck he and he had 100 pound for it. I'm in the right place.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:34
And then I said
G
George Sverdrup 43:37
for I've sat back and see
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:39
your father's face.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:42
And I saw it many times in the first month of school. All want to just looked at
G
George Sverdrup 43:49
Blue and Nash.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:52
Get up this week.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:55
force it down evidently. See this.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 20 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 43:59
I guess I told one of the nurses a few days beforehand that he had a special nurse and he
told her he says
G
George Sverdrup 44:08
Armistice Day says something wonderful is going to happen.
G
George Sverdrup 44:15
Anyway, this is very highly personal for me. I
G
George Sverdrup 44:20
my mother died unexpectedly on October 11 house on the west coast.
G
George Sverdrup 44:27
And I got back I think it was October 13.
G
George Sverdrup 44:31
And my sister was at I was privileged to meet me and your father also happened to be
there.
G
George Sverdrup 44:39
He was on his way out.
G
George Sverdrup 44:42
And she asked him to tell me I didn't know what you call.
G
George Sverdrup 44:49
And just think that was a very short time before he passed.
G
George Sverdrup 44:56
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 21 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
People quite often, of course, I suppose that solution.
G
George Sverdrup 45:01
People would come to him at home constantly for help in their personal lives and this
man. And this must have been kind of a burden. He must certainly be carrying a pretty
heavy burden. 20th and probably his heart was getting rather tired. Yeah. Of course this
as I say, I didn't know I don't know that anybody else.
G
George Sverdrup 45:30
Late Oh, no. He was the one to know. When he was gonna meet him. I don't think you
G
George Sverdrup 45:36
know, I don't the old lady and dad. And that was the best man ever. You know, I mean,
Dad was Marshall, he came over here from Norway. And away from that I would say
closest to people could be how much difference was there in their age about 15 years or
so? You figure dad was born in 79. Life must be about 68 or so nine nine now. Yeah. So you
see it 20 or 30 or something like that? Maybe I would get something like this on the basis
of that. Who would you say was some of your father's other close intimate friends? And
burntwood I suppose Well, you have you have to neighborhood there been a time before
birth it was married ease to come to the house for dinner on Sundays when they after
church services you have to say burn fit very much so. And I'll repeat again, Mario sticks.
Very close.
G
George Sverdrup 46:44
And
G
George Sverdrup 46:47
what about the Blegen brothers so I don't recall I suppose they were friends but I don't
really recall a Johnny was probably within the mortar anyone else because it's Trinity. But
I know I don't I recall,
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:03
I think offended was the Lincoln senior
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 22 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:08
father.
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:10
There was this in
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:14
this men like
G
George Sverdrup 47:16
I don't recall
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:18
some of that some of the older men, there was a strong feeling of
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:24
understanding each other and tremendous respect. They loved him as a young man saw
that he was picking up the
G
George Sverdrup 47:34
down as far as real close friends outside of merchants and dicks need his clothes to stay
on the line, but he was far away but their clothes and life. I would say to my knowledge as
I recall, that was pretty pretty much it, which is parties again and we say close friends. He
had a high regard and was very friendly with many. Well it just had a wealth of friends.
But not so much so those that you really break down with us.
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:05
But he was he was and so for many years his treasure Trinity Church man and his his
interest in late in the work at Trinity Church and and deaconess hospital. Right. And so you
have this because it was under his father. That deaconess hospital has been started so
there was this kind of relationship to the ground. I think that he started to build a quite a
strong relationship with with many Christmas and as you came as a young teacher and
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 23 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and admired a great mind, but I do think that what about his friendship was difficult.
48:50
For her it's never
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:54
because I think that my own feeling was it bear clan was a very impatient President of the
Board of Regents sees a bedtime and he wanted many things. As impatient as the fact
that he didn't move fast enough and he was kind of he was the Esquire member every
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:12
time he dressed. like nobody else dress, paper books, Straw Hats at an angle and so on.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:20
Ever, ever say anything? I think there was a feeling among the faculty to some extent for a
while. His oh there was that he was trying to dominate it too much. And then suddenly,
you see he's gone. But I can remember the the one sentence from the sermon that he
preached it is handled. Vengeance belongs to me, says the Lord, I will recompense I need
repeated to the end. And you mentioned the names of Harold and whatever that other
Brooklyn loyalists.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:55
But this was, this is a very sad thing. I do think that he must have had quite the trenches.
Mr. Hammer,
G
George Sverdrup 50:01
Oh, yes. Hammer Dave, he was a he was really a salt of the earth. And for years, even
after a hammer passed away, a mother kept close contact with her. I mean, this was there,
there
G
Gerda Mortensen 50:15
were variables. But I think that there was much more of the comic strip, really, he must
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 24 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have had it in his, in his letter writing with some of his relatives to know.
G
George Sverdrup 50:26
This, I would say in this regard, and I and there's something I was on a we were always, I
should say taught not taught as such but aware of a very, very strong family circle of
family tie. In other words, not an egotistical because that there was just no room for
egotism anywhere. But we were proud. in the best sense of the word of our family, we
were taught to our family, watch something special, not in the egotist. by me just because
because they were our family. I mean,
G
Gerda Mortensen 51:05
there was again, this concern
G
George Sverdrup 51:07
now this, this is a strong, extremely strong family unit. And I think I have this way to me,
my family is just the Yep, not that we're better than anyone else. This has nothing to do
with it. But a very strong tie or a close. And then probably a sense of obligation that goes,
Well, I think this is true, I think probably. And I think this would be again, characteristic of
the family as a group. And I would phrase it this way that whatever talents we have, are
no credit to us, but rather a gift. And it is man's obligation to take the gifts which he has
and develop it. And after having developed it is being used to be used for the betterment
of society, not for one's own personal gain, but you can't justify your existence unless you
have contributed to the Welfare Society. Now, I don't say that we've all done this to the
utmost. Quite the contrary, I'm sure. But still this attitude, I think prevails for excellence.
Again, he's not interested really in money. He asked me late Isn't
G
Gerda Mortensen 52:23
he has it?
G
George Sverdrup 52:25
This is the system
G
George Sverdrup 52:28
to develop your town to serve to see that you gotten this and this is benefiting society.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 25 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
This is the thing. Well, I mean, to read more in the history of Norway during the period of
john shredders, Prime Ministership? No, he was an uncle of your grandfather, right, Johan,
right? He took over the Prime Ministership in 1884. I don't just want to terminate it. He had
an 89 was it? Yeah. 1889. And
G
George Sverdrup 53:03
it's kind of interesting here. He had
G
George Sverdrup 53:07
one of his nephews in the cabinet who was almost I don't know whether this is too far
fetched. But it was almost from some of the reading. I've done. The relationship between
those two was almost reminiscent of JFKM. And Bob, all of this could be Yeah. Dad was,
yeah, that's awkward. So I don't know that he actually ever went in. I think on two
occasions, he was asked to be a member of the ministerial. But I think on both occasions,
he turned it down. Of course, in latter years, he had a speech difficulty, so that, you know,
53:53
well, let's see. No, you know, can we
G
Gerda Mortensen 53:56
use some of your impressions of attendance, Oxburgh? is the son of the president? Yeah,
before you do that. Yeah. But before you do that, we talked about relationship to others.
You talk about co very Lindemann a little bit about your father talk about talk about
friends, on the faculty, I think he had a kind of a friendship with Marion, which was the
same kind of thing, like going to a movie in Chicago with Brian,
G
George Sverdrup 54:24
was it sort of, I think, in a way took him away from the campus, because she was not one
with him. oros in bread in the Free Church and come up and was close with you. You might
in a sense, classify fire as an outsider, in a sense, who'd come in quite vibrant, fight
personality. So he did. He thought a lot of her in very high regard. And this was very
evident, I think right along. And as you say, it was kid took them off the campus, I think, in
a sense,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 26 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 54:59
cosmic Allison
G
George Sverdrup 55:00
now, right, let's, I don't know if you properly use the word refreshing or not, but not that
the others weren't? This is not the point. But it was a change, in a sense. Well, I think one
can already understand this, because certainly he had, he had sensitivities, and, and, and
needs, that probably would be a little frustrating, frustrated in the position that he was in.
I think so this is true. In other words, I think in one sense of the word coming here and
taking over as it was confining to him. Yes. In other words, he wanted to, I think his great
desire would have been to a facility studies in a broad sense and gone in to a much
broader area and where he could concentrate on this. And I say, I think this was somewhat
confining, I guess bound to be to an individual start.
G
Gerda Mortensen 56:00
He's far ahead of his colleagues and far ahead of the
G
George Sverdrup 56:05
other one. Yeah, I can say.
G
George Sverdrup 56:09
I think I say even without prejudice is a fantastically wonderful person, I just can't imagine.
G
George Sverdrup 56:17
I can see your leg. And just one more thing here, too. And then we get to the question
Atari as
G
George Sverdrup 56:26
here's some incident that may be revealing people bringing towels quite often. And he
says that he had, you know, a very friendly relationship with Him not probably intimate or
very friendly, but friendly, I'm sure. And one day, he said your father called him. And this
must have been before he got the Buick, because he wanted to break into Dr. There was a
tree out on the boulevard that he thought was a pretty and he wanted to to to take
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 27 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
theater bringing out there so they could see it all. Does that does that they would do this I
mean to to him, this is to him, this would be a quite an occasion. For Well, if you want to
use the word for play here for recreation, that sort of thing. It didn't take money was a
things about you. In other words, if you could see the beauty
G
George Sverdrup 57:26
in your surroundings,
G
George Sverdrup 57:29
this think would leave an impression with him. But I think it did for all of us to set because
G
George Sverdrup 57:36
as
G
George Sverdrup 57:38
a head of the household sees sodas, in many instances, a family and I was you begin to
develop an appreciation through this because it was not something he kept himself. But I
if you I think this would be truly if you can see the beauty around you and and doesn't
have a beautiful tree as you see it, take your and say, well, let's go down and take a look
this evening, maybe all the house that had a particular type of architecture, something of
this sort didn't cost us any money. And yet you get more enjoyment more lasting
enjoyment from this and you do anything else? Well, I I really go for people who will do
that?
G
George Sverdrup 58:24
Because
G
George Sverdrup 58:26
I guess the typical American male won't No, no, a very sensitive person in that regard.
Now, Terry, you were you were asking about George was it
G
George Sverdrup 58:41
was it was coming here impressions? How it must have been to,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 28 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:47
to be the son of the president of such stature in some
G
George Sverdrup 58:53
way, I think probably knows much about this far as i epidemic on occasion. We've talked
about it, as we did at length on it, we should kind of go one day, we don't have No, you
don't. But
G
George Sverdrup 59:06
I will say extremely difficult.
G
George Sverdrup 59:10
Because I always felt and I do to this day.
G
George Sverdrup 59:14
That no way could I myself ever approach this man. I mean, as far as the ability, all those
characteristics. It's extremely difficult thing in one sense. And other stamps, it's it's nice,
because it's wonderful. But I have a heritage handed down from people of this type.
Listening, this is a marvelous part of it. But I always felt and I still hesitate quite a bit, even
coming on the campus for fear that somebody will say well, because of his name. He feels
into this. So in other words, you you lose your identity, in a sense. Now, some people
wouldn't. And I think this defense is different personality, some people wouldn't, some
people would rise above this. It's not my personality to do so.
G
George Sverdrup 60:16
And this has been a real problem for
G
George Sverdrup 60:19
you. In fact,
George Sverdrup 60:22
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 29 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 60:22
I'd say that probably in a sense was added to the fact that when I was here is right after
the warrior that everything was in my education was in a turmoil anyway. And then, but I
was fine on a couple of occasions. on two occasions, a teacher called me down for
something which I hadn't done publicly in class. And I was about ready to walk out.
Because, and boy, I know the individual versus who they are, this is no importance. But I
know, I can almost tell you every single second of the detail, but this all was bothered. And
it does to this day, for instance, I see some of these threads on slack here. And the first
thing that comes to my mind. I wonder what they think of me. Because when I was here, I
probably man, I I suppose I was a nuisance as a lot of people are. And then I was no
different. This almost bothers me. And I feel very, very apprehensive to this day coming on
campus. Because I don't I have guarantee. Here's a particular friend of mine. You see, this
is different. But
G
Gerda Mortensen 61:34
I would wonder how I would react if I were in your situation? Maybe it's a bit difficult to try
to.
G
George Sverdrup 61:41
Well, I if I think if I had to do over again, that I would have gone to a different school, you
would think so? Yes, not because and this is no sense derogatory against dogs. We had
some fantastic teachers here. But if I gone to another school, and I think to this day, I
would have been better off psychologically, because then I could have made my own way.
And I could have gone out and men an individual men myself and not have to say, well,
you're the son of Sol Sol, UR songs
G
Gerda Mortensen 62:17
occur to you at the time, it's just
G
Gerda Mortensen 62:21
that you should have changed schools. I mean, when you were here, did you think I
shouldn't be here I should be at?
G
George Sverdrup 62:28
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 30 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Well, I would say this, probably bother me to a degree. But you see, again, I was here, just
one here. And then I went in the Navy for three years, you see. So that was not a
continuum here. And and this does make quite a difference. But I it's it's, as I say, it's a
wonderful thing. To have a man such as this for your father, but also extremely difficult.
Depending on I know if my sister Catherine, she took her nurses training in the wall,
because she come up through the school on her dad, and she just did not want to go to
the poor dad was on. And in no sense of the word would he ever make you feel this?
course I had a little bit of a problem too, I suppose. You have to remember that in the
background of all this. I was living on that night.
G
George Sverdrup 63:20
And after that time,
G
George Sverdrup 63:23
I shifted for myself. I mean, as far as my decision, not that mother wouldn't have
wonderful woman. And always say if it was just my personality, I was close to him. And
from then on. I wish now that I probably all of my whole life. I could have had some of
these guys, you see, but this was a nightmare. And consequently, all these things I
G
Gerda Mortensen 63:44
got to be the last.
G
George Sverdrup 63:46
I was a loner. I've always been a loner, and I think this is part of it.
G
George Sverdrup 63:53
I mean, I didn't
G
Gerda Mortensen 63:54
I think this this makes sense.
G
George Sverdrup 64:00
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 31 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
was uh, I don't like this idea of losing your identity. I mean, unless I can make it on my own,
then. Uh, so I don't have a right to go ahead.
C
Carl Chrislock 64:12
Well, I think there are other faculty children who have gone here who have felt not to the
same degree probably should you
G
George Sverdrup 64:20
know, as I say, this is a difference in personality. I think this I'm probably more sensitive to
this than many.
G
George Sverdrup 64:28
But like you said, No, no, I don't think the fact that either girls and I don't think it would
have affected me to this extent of that and then let me know, I don't think I think could
have been all different. But the design of it here, Danny and I can take it away. Well, this
could be I don't know this. As I say even to this day, I'll sit at home in a chair on one side
Gee, I wish I could take like two boys over to see their grandparents yc this something I
can't do. And again, As I say, the man such as that just says something new. You don't put
it in words, that's all there is to know.
G
Gerda Mortensen 65:13
Well, isn't a question of living it down? It's a question of living up to it.
G
George Sverdrup 65:16
So, yeah, let's just write and I don't think people I don't mean to imply that people
consciously force you into this. In fact, I think they probably know. They don't know that
you feel this way. And you're certainly not going to come out and tell them off the record.
But this this, this is, I mean, it's, it's a real problem.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:47
Well, I suppose it's partly to a case, in understanding the reaction of other people in their
attitude may not be exactly what it seems to be.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 32 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 65:56
You know, I think this is undoubtedly true.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:58
Some people may You know what I mean a manner of speaking standing all of somebody
coming from a from a very distinguished traditional
G
Gerda Mortensen 66:14
when when the person doesn't want to be studying
G
George Sverdrup 66:19
well this is what I know. This is way dad was himself. I mean, he was as close to the people
at Trinity on the board be the carpenters, bombers, bricklayers which are all just as good a
professional present universe University Minnesota I'm in but he was just as close to them I
think because he was the other guys it was no, never any difference nothing ever indicate
that any one person with any way. be better be different. Never. Unthinkable.
C
Carl Chrislock 66:59
Now in in this connection have you read this local quiet and then running? Are you familiar
with it? You know, my 50 years in America?
G
George Sverdrup 67:06
I think I did number of years ago I am but I--
C
Carl Chrislock 67:10
He's got some interesting reminiscences they're both about your, your grandfather and
your father. And he brings up one thing about your father. Now, that's way before your
time, of course. And maybe, maybe you didn't hear very much about it. But the the early
years of your father's service here at Augsburg says running and were were rather difficult.
He--There are other sources indicate that too, and there were many people who, who
apparently stood and live from him. He wasn't of course a graduate of Augsburg
seminary, phenomenal thing. And there was always this comparison with his father again.
And but to your father's credit, according to, to running, who I guess was around here
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 33 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
quite a bit he was away--
G
George Sverdrup 68:12
Oh yes.
C
Carl Chrislock 68:13
A congregation
G
Gerda Mortensen 68:15
For years,
C
Carl Chrislock 68:17
--he managed to win acceptance, you know, and I am. And running seems to suggest that
that was quite a feat. to win the trust and the confidence of many of these people, some
of these features be born up too easy here, you--
G
George Sverdrup 68:31
No, as I say, you have to know the constituency that latencies all style at all, and they
weren't about to be moved. No, no, I think this is true. But of course, and again, you see,
and this is to his credit, but he had the faculty of doing this or this he had with his mind.
But his personality, his philosophy of life, put this all together, given time. I only know it can
All of it and I'm sure there are many others that I don't need to persons. I know that as I
can remember home that the folks felt were kind of against that. And
G
Gerda Mortensen 69:18
They couldn't.
G
George Sverdrup 69:19
They didn't add to the extent of this. I don't believe that that's the only two that I know
where they probably fell to the floor. I felt they were kind of hard.
Carl Chrislock 69:30
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 34 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
C
Carl Chrislock 69:30
And did you have any any idea on the basis of this and now I think, I think we're aware of
this from from some of the sources that we have gone through. I what I would be curious
about was what the basis for for status discontent was, was it a nice thing I don't know
we've never discussed this was not going to become a part of
G
Gerda Mortensen 70:00
I think this was his phone personal regression. You know, he's this man's version of the
superior to him. He couldn't run any couldn't be as intimate friends and Slaton hit, you
know the unfortunate feeling of wanting to be big discussed with you know having
something like this to the President's avoidable group so that he could have an angle at,
at Amy against and hitting against Augsburg. We had it in our own family because Harold
was Ralph was married to her Helen. Harold was married to again and neither these men
could beso we separate some of this. But it's it's a kind of a of a kind of a compulsion to
want to be great. Yeah, there was something about him that never ran really true. And
funny you sound the mannerisms of a man all of a sudden away for I could never really
appreciate the new spiritual head.Although he was regarded as a great teacher, but this
was, like you said to
G
George Sverdrup 71:18
and I wasn't. I just picked it up from a little bit here. We're here that probably wasn't
supposed to be over, but you just you can't help but once in a while, and there was never
anything set against either of these versions.
G
Gerda Mortensen 71:33
Maybe something about this ruin business too.
G
Gerda Mortensen 71:35
And I just ran about that.
G
George Sverdrup 71:40
I don't know what it was. Well, on the on the specific issues? Of course, it would almost
seem I mean, if you did, there are always things back of the issues. Yeah, well, we can
terminate this soon. Now it does seem to me I suppose I have. I have my ideas and
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 35 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
commitments here to.
G
George Sverdrup 72:01
But it seems to me that that in 1923 was president of the Free Church
G
George Sverdrup 72:09
that, that he really did something that must have been very, very difficult to take. Because
if you consider the year 1923, there have been a rather difficult and delicate
transformation made of the school, the modern college program had gone through the
co-education have been adopted. And maybe I exaggerate the degree of opposition to
this from some of the organs, but there is no no. I don't know whether it was more vocal
and actual but it certainly was vocal enough. Well, what the Slaton doing is 1923 report, he
opens up all those old issues that supposedly had been settled and talked about how
dangerous the drift of Augsburg was, it was moving away from from its Presti scholar
foundations and
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:01
openness. I invited the young people because all the young people into the into meetings
and ideas. And they all spoke about invisible and the change.
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:11
Yeah, everything is bound to be cracked and broken. Well, I wonder if
G
George Sverdrup 73:17
this might not be it. But it seemed to me that there wasn't anything better calculated to
put the the, the output people in a better in a in a worse position than to resolve those
issues then, because they supposedly have been.
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:33
And then we sat around and had a collection and and somebody started and we were so
desperate here to make people even a free laughing and I pledged $100. And he said how
are you going to get it to sit you're going to school this and I'm going to work.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 36 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 73:49
So I've stayed $1,000 and
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:52
paid for my own?
G
George Sverdrup 73:56
No surface surface.
G
George Sverdrup 74:01
Business of the Rowan case that came about a year later, I think Rowan was a member of
the Board of Trustees. And for some reason, he went on a
G
George Sverdrup 74:13
on a one man campaign with a series of articles in how to blinded
G
George Sverdrup 74:20
calling for a faster pace towards modernization and August. And I don't think you know,
really, on the basis of the issues here that your father disagreed with him at all. It was my
way of doing it. Now this could be another way of doing it. You see he was posted the
situation. I'm probably more sensitive to this constituents, right as he was working in and
they said if you're going to get your way. Yeah, there's one other thing that I thought I
might mentioned before, but that might be of interest to you. Just Of course, yeah. And we
spoke of birth, it is a very cool to that. And there's one point where they disagree.
G
George Sverdrup 75:05
Only wanted no infringement and stuff told me this. He said
G
George Sverdrup 75:11
if he was always opinion that that was probably a little too lenient in some of the people
related seminary, he thought he probably wasn't as strict as he should have been in
clearing these people. In other words, he was more apt the man came in and pulled out he
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 37 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
called he is more apt to let them come in. And there was this. I mean, it was a big
contention. But this is one one difference between burka and breakfast, told me one night
he says the only thing he said, where we were on opposite sides of the fence. And I'm not
sure but maybe it was right. Well, it's pretty difficult. Because it is it's hard. It's people were
complaining to in those days about the fact that not enough people. That's right. This is
what you do. I mean, you you're caught in the middle here and it's
G
George Sverdrup 76:05
not an easy task.
G
George Sverdrup 76:08
Well, I wonder, you know, you've been very kind
76:14
and picked up something. Finally meeting. Yeah, I'll be right back again. These just keep
G
George Sverdrup 76:20
okay. I'd have to leave I think by 430 about
G
George Sverdrup 76:28
security I'm
G
George Sverdrup 76:32
going to say here
G
George Sverdrup 76:37
Yeah, I wanted to ask this to now maybe you wouldn't have any
G
George Sverdrup 76:44
any clear way of knowing this
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 38 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 76:48
maybe it's already been covered. Was there any any kind of a special relationship that
your father head with with other college presidents in the ass in the area? Yes, there was.
G
George Sverdrup 77:03
I think probably the one in the in the state that he admired the most, as I recall, was the
then president the sister was president of St. Catherine OI this could be verified I'm not
sort of seems to me the name of the sister and tone or something of this are yet a very
high regard for this one. Was he had a I think a high regard and I don't know the degree
of closeness Kaufman of the university
G
George Sverdrup 77:46
more with saying like remember president bowl stopping by the house?
G
George Sverdrup 77:52
I would say the one that
G
George Sverdrup 77:55
I was named name I recall and I think most that mother would see that presence St.
Catherine's
G
Gerda Mortensen 78:01
I think her name is sister and
G
George Sverdrup 78:02
on that could be sure that's a very high regard for this woman.
G
George Sverdrup 78:08
I would say that and Kaufman at one time and as I say I know he felt quite close to low
and of course we say feel quite close to this is a relatively young these are names these
are the names which have come to my mind. Yeah. Well, I think some of the
correspondence Paris is out to I think there was a pretty satisfactory relationship with with
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 39 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for a occasionally in the letters that were exchanged here, there'd be some, you know,
some sharing of problems and request for favors kind of interesting drainage depression.
And when curtailment had to take place on the faculty it would be a question of whether
the one hand any vacancies the other VNJ awfully tough time I'm just wondering if you
remember very much about the about his presidency during the during the Depression
period. The
79:11
the whole question of money
G
George Sverdrup 79:14
of course was a critical one for everybody but the the experts situation then and the
church current situation generally was pretty I know one year I don't know if it had been
the latter part of August the first part of September he had to go out into the
congregations and go out and I know for a fact that engaging went out in the fields of
rock the farmers you're trying to get a little money so they can buy coal to get started in
the fall because they just the money wasn't there. So he took that upon himself and this
was a very distasteful thing for him to do not that is dishonorable but it's just it's not a
very pleasant task to go out and asked for money to get school started in the fall because
it wasn't there and of course salaries long period time and you didn't get money yeah, no,
I know we live by the good graces of the mature and the literally by the good graces the
butcher and the grocer down here I mean the fact that they would carry us I mean
eventually get paid but the fact that they would carry us is the only reason we got and
once in a while if we were going to get closers on Daniel we could always go to Ross
Charles because there was a 10% discount for clergyman but as I say in money well I know
my mother went to work and substituted teaching and also my sisters for their piano
lessons buzzing ever is on ever here there was no complaints no and once in a while as I
suppose as in the case of local pastor two people would come into town and we get a
sack of potatoes or like member all band score to school in the fall the largest squash and
he grew his garden up by doing like was to have as a presidential squash and it came up
the ball and
G
George Sverdrup 81:26
this is a
Gerda Mortensen 81:28
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 40 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 81:28
OJ
G
George Sverdrup 81:36
you want to meet go again? You can duck them know you. But this went a long way for us
to say like you know passing a comment Sure. Fire looking down even usually chicken
right. Usually we get an hour wasn't the barely is that his turkeys or something?
Somebody?
G
Gerda Mortensen 81:56
Yes. Yeah. And the presidential
G
George Sverdrup 81:58
squash him just tell Amanda accidentally dropped at the rock the down the back hallway
in the hole in the steps to 710 in the back hall where I dropped.
G
George Sverdrup 82:11
Rambo was really gonna fix me that
G
George Sverdrup 82:14
the basement, it was all huge. All you can do is carry would take it in the basement and
throw it off and and drop it on the base of the floor. So he will drop it off. As always, he's
just you. But this went a long ways to us saying this in lieu of, of the hard times. And as I
said, like many local pastors, people will bring things into, you know, the show this in itself
is a great deal. You know, I'm sure
G
Gerda Mortensen 82:41
that's what they did to the past year.
G
George Sverdrup 82:42
Sure.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 41 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 82:45
Ya know, there was something you said you to that maybe relates to what we talked
about before. And that is your your father's distaste for going out and asking for money.
Now we're seeing here that that fundraising as such, was not it was liking or were you
saying that? This particular kind of fundraising it was, you know, especially disagree, I
would say? I would say fundraising in general was not I should say he disliked this. But I
would say probably just type more than for instance, if there were a church wide drive,
and you're going out that local congregation to preach on Sunday about the schools, and
the preach about the new buildings. And getting it this way, I think would be less
objectionable if you're using his term. Yeah. But there's a sort of elements. I think we all
have you. I do you. You're not begging but you feel that you are in this. Yes. And you feel
you're imposing your presence on people. And there are some people have a knack of this.
Yeah, sure. It's fine. Their fundraisers. Yeah. But you have to have a somewhat different
personalities. He was not an extrovert. And he says, No, no, that's I guess that's exactly
what I was getting at now. I've often wondered if, if he were in his prime today, if he would,
you know, be able to meet all the requirements that a college president today supposedly
has to meet in order to be this extrovert type of?
G
George Sverdrup 84:30
I mean, I'm not detracting
G
George Sverdrup 84:31
No, no, I know. I know exactly what you're saying. And and I know the point of what you're
saying, I would say this. As far as on the campus, is administration and this sort of thing, I
think would be superb. I think if there would be a failing, he could meet the public and he
could get the respect of the public. However, it's a question whether he could meet, for
instance, today's businessman, you know, his level. Right, right. This I question, you know,
and I think that I think it is right to question is now maybe had he lived in this time, he
would have adapted to the philosophy as it has evolved. In those days, they had a
different corner, this is questionable. But in so far as in, because he was not fluent in so far.
I mean, his writings, he was not fluent as his father was. As a speaker, I really don't know.
Because at that age, I was no judge, but from hearing others, I don't think I think he was
profound. Whether he was an eloquent speaker or not, I'm not so certain. For instance, I
don't think he couldn't, he would not be a doctor Christmas and as a speaker. And of
course, you are, I think, in my estimation, but I don't think
George Sverdrup 85:54
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 42 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 85:54
I think on a personal basis, he would succeed very well. Yeah.
85:59
Well, I think I agree with you. And I think I would comment too, I'm
G
George Sverdrup 86:03
old, I'm old enough. A little older than you were I remember him as president here. He was
a very, I don't know, how you define eloquent. But he was a very effective speaker, he
wasn't the kind who, you know, would would with cater to, to certain kinds of tastes, you
know, you know, and and he didn't compromise some online? No, no, I don't know how he
would have been as an after dinner speaker at the Chamber of Commerce bank before
this is it I think, for instance, in lieu of our guarantee, said, and I have been told and heard
this many times to that an enemy he is a type of was the type of a person who would sit
back and let everybody else have their say. And then they have the ability to sum this up
and coming in and in with the punch line, so to speak. And this would be and people
would listen to him, because they respected his thought process sees in this sort of thing.
But this is an entirely different type of trade, than is that of an after dinner speaker there. I
think
G
Gerda Mortensen 87:09
he would not be
G
George Sverdrup 87:11
No, well, of course, here again, it depends on what you think college president should be.
Right? If you if you think you should be a person who can instill
G
George Sverdrup 87:21
the right kind of an atmosphere on on campus, that's one thing or if you think you should
just be a
G
George Sverdrup 87:27
representative off campus. That's another That's right. It's it's a it's a matter of, you know,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 43 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
definition. And, of course, this varies, there can be something set for both sides. Sure. And
now in your grandfather's day, you know, I sort of get the impression that this record off
the team was rather ideal, because I don't think your grandfather was a great one, either
for going to Chamber of Commerce, or was fairly he was quite a fellow. He was quite
fluent, and more or less the Goliath man. That's right. People call the people who went in
the tradition, you know, refer to this as after school, because he was from the new No, I
think I think this is true. This is my impression to that he was much more this way. But in
your father's day, of course, you didn't have executive that team. somebody suggested to
me that anyone looking at the history of Oxford would have to consider the relationship
of say the president of the board of trustees to the President. Now, of course, this is pretty
relatively simple in the early years because after down was I think Chairman most of the
time the party trustees making
G
George Sverdrup 88:41
their money your father's time, it would have been very London who served between
Berlin and hammer. Do you know, our it was hammers did hammer succeed Brooklyn
directly? Brooklyn went off the board.
G
George Sverdrup 88:54
The at the annual meeting before his tragic death,
G
Gerda Mortensen 88:56
I think Yeah. Can I Adams hammer? Yes. Because hammer lived for quite a while.
G
George Sverdrup 89:02
Yeah. And then hammer died the same year as your father did, I believe? I don't think he
died in 37. But I wonder if you didn't go off the BART and hokum. I was gonna say, how
come was in there? Wasn't he somewhere? Yeah, yeah. I think he succeeded hammer. Yes.
G
George Sverdrup 89:19
And I don't think there was ever the relationship between help them.
G
George Sverdrup 89:24
Quite a different situation. When Of
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 44 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 89:28
course, that relationship wasn't so long in time, either. You know, I
G
Gerda Mortensen 89:30
know. I think the father had his, you know, a kind of many faceted relationship for certain
things. He went to hell. And for certain things, he went to marry limit for certain other
kinds of things. Horrible,
G
George Sverdrup 89:48
but he was here.
G
Gerda Mortensen 89:49
And then there was this, this close relationship of the former English speaking group at
Kennedy. In one way, he had kinda close relationship to Africa, and to Georgia. But it was
a personal one, and not an intellectual one. No, no, because there, they just didn't, they
just didn't make it. But then I think to that your father satisfying himself, just some
tremendous feeding of his own mind always, was never quite as lonesome.
G
George Sverdrup 90:25
No, I don't think.
G
Gerda Mortensen 90:27
But I can remember the day that he came into chapel and he said that this folk was dead.
Sit in my hometown, in Boston, for my people come from the mountains are all around this
beautiful little home, nestled in the right on the pure, and their mountains, their snow and
their skin, and how you don't see them, but they're always there. And somehow in the
death of a man, you see him and his personality, just simply silhouetted against the
flaming sky, and extends out with some new kind of meeting.
G
Gerda Mortensen 90:59
And even I have to talk about how to appreciate it.
Gerda Mortensen 91:03
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 45 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:03
And so there were things you see from a spiritual song, and sort of
G
George Sverdrup 91:08
glean from it
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:11
and barely from some of these other people, and I know that when he was going to go up
the last time that they were their hosts came along, and they came and stayed. And it was
kind of that special want existed between this because my father had loved your
grandfather so much, and the love of a feeling family, all these people and in the way you
see I feel as if I'm a child of this country church, in a certain sense your father felt this way
to
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:47
kind of belong to it because you were born into it.
G
George Sverdrup 91:50
Right I think this in a way is one reason why it's so very difficult for me
G
George Sverdrup 91:56
tremendously difficult.
G
George Sverdrup 92:00
There you and I think that your father and your grandfather being here today would have
done the same thing they would have been the mothers in this on this could well be sad to
see here again you see us know this side of it and I was too young too. So this I don't have
the opportunity. But I think it's wrong I don't mean no by letting them earlier it's not a
matter of right or wrong.
G
Gerda Mortensen 92:26
But I think for instance now that when when he corporate Nelson then Warren Clampett
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 46 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for instance, read over the writings in December spoke of some of the descriptive and and
he Clifford Nelson came to that meeting of these translators and he was just simply so
excited he said one of these hyper relevant for today, they're written as if they were
tortured. And these are the things that we must have translated and published now and
this is what's going to happen
G
George Sverdrup 92:52
very definitely that was not wanting to say without his own little circle, no, no, no, no, no
and I think foresight
93:00
and then of course, he was put on that
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:04
what was called the AL seed immersion Western Conference right in the Board of Higher
Education over here together with JCK price it represented the loser college group. But I
can still remember he came back from Penn visit St. Louis, Concordia seminary there
Luther College and came back here and thank goodness we have respect to the
individual for the middle
G
George Sverdrup 93:32
Well,
93:33
yeah, this could be continued. We should let this keep running until all this is run on okay.
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:39
So I'll just let it run.
G
George Sverdrup 93:42
Okay, I don't think I should
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 47 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:47
have I have a meeting in the other room or I see so so I will be He just won't be holding
your here
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:52
No, they don't.
G
George Sverdrup 93:57
It gets better acquainted with you
G
George Sverdrup 94:04
Don't you ever call me but she pulled me out of the cold in over here one
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:10
little youngster he walked into that you know the man Oh
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:14
yeah, yeah, he was right down and I ran and picked him up in here carry the most was
G
George Sverdrup 94:22
flexing rocks you're gonna hit for
G
George Sverdrup 94:26
it wasn't Bry as I recall, my Sandy colon it has to be one that apparently they were going
to fail or something. Yes. Can you write it down anyway?
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:36
I just think I remember
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 48 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKER... Show more
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKERS
John Stensvaag, Gerda Mortensen, Paul Sonnack, Carl Chrislock, Phil Quanbeck
C
Carl Chrislock 00:00
I'm Carl Chris lock. And the purpose of this interview is really to probe the general
direction and taken by the Augsburg religion department roughly in the period since
World War Two. Now, for the sake of the centennial history, were very interested in this
probe proceeding on the premise that there have been some vital changes at Augsburg.
And we think of the are assuming that the religion department perhaps is one of the most
sensitive seismograph of that change. And we have these three men here because we feel
that due to their long association with the religion department that they are better
qualified than anyone else to answer questions and to reflect on it.
C
Carl Chrislock 01:23
I'll direct my first question at John Svenstaag. Now, you were here, and John, and both as
a professor in the seminary, and as a key member of the college religion department.
Now, in serving in this double function, did you distinguish between your goals as seminary
teacher, and member of the college religion department?
J
John Stensvaag 01:58
Yes, I think I did. I think I conceived of my task in the college, I was teaching freshman, you
know, to be that have to be pastoral, helping these young people who are just come out of
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 1 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
high school, into the college, into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures, and with
the aim of helping them to see the the gospel and helping them to see the message of the
Scripture, hopefully, to deepen them in their faith, and to help others towards committing
to the faith in the seminary, I think I thought of my task, rather, along more academic lines,
to, to help them into an understanding of the Scriptures and historical process to which
the scriptures came in to be incorporating them the findings of a more recent studies over
the scriptures, including the critical and liberal, so called liberal approach to the
scriptures. Maybe I should say that I started teaching in the seminary or in the college in
1946. And that, as I began teaching, it wasn't a certain setting. And I think of Si Melby, who
was teaching, basic Bible, you know, up until his death, in about 44, I think, or somewhere
in there. And naturally, I influenced a good deal by his concept of the tasking, and his way
of teaching the scriptures and so on. So there was a carryover from that period, to, to
Mine and Ours. And, and the teaching of the basic Bible that we did was basically to lead
them into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures without raising a lot of questions,
critical questions, and so on that you would raise, perhaps in the seminary.
C
Carl Chrislock 04:41
I don't know whether this is Carl speaking. I don't know whether we will be promoting a
confrontation here or not. But would feel I'd like to have you comment on what John said,
in terms of what you were trying to do is in its chairman of the mission
P
Phil Quanbeck 05:00
Ah, Phil Quanbeck I think that, that I'd like to say that the concern of the, of the
department during the time that I was here, in some sense, was, in probably in a rather
fundamental sense, was influenced again, by Johnston's fog, who'd been my teacher in
seminary. I think that the pastoral concern still obtained when I first began, and I would
like to think that it's still still obtains still exists. But I think that a pastoral concern always
manifests itself in a particular historical situation. And that, that the pastoral concern, as
it was evidenced when I was a student in the college, would really, and I never had you as,
as a as a student. But I think that that, that the sort of concern that was manifest in the
courses that I didn't have in college, would really not be available today. Because the the
sort of student that we have, the student that comes to us has, I think, and I'm, I might be
wrong, but I think has to be encountered in a different way. Today, from what from the
way in which he was encountered during my tenure in as a student in college.
06:49
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 2 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
So I think that the pastoral concern, I would prefer to think is still present. The degree to
which its present, the character of its presence, I think, is is a matter of about which there
may be legitimate the discussion and debate.
P
Paul Sonnack 07:20
This is Paul Sonnack, I'd like to just pick up a comment and, and what Phil is just finished
saying, in trying to reflect my own experience, it is, you know, maybe, maybe what's
happened in the religion department is that we have tried in a responsible fashion to be
responsive to the students that we've had. I started teaching at Augsburg in 1949. And I
can't date this, you know, in any precise terms. But I think the first years that I spent here,
as a teacher made clear that then the main problem is it that I had to face as a teacher in
relation to the students was not really to commend the Christian faith to them so much. I
think I did that. But I thought my problem was rather to try to open them up to the world,
so that they could read try to relate the affirmations of the faith that allow them just took
for granted to what was going on in society, for example, I think in the most recent years
that I spent at Augsburg, the problem had really become quite reverse. I can no longer
take for granted kind of the commitment or of the students to a Christian view, but rather
really a radical questioning. They were open to the world. I don't know they've been made
that way. But they were and the questions that they were asking, really had to do with the
with the viability of Christian faith as a religious alternative in the 20th century. Now, I
think, you know, if a teacher tries to be responsive to his students, that, that those issues
somehow become quite clear. And maybe This accounts for some of the though the way
in which the religion department is trying to respond to this.
C
Carl Chrislock 09:32
Any Any further commentsalong the line that
J
John Stensvaag 09:40
I think that's, there's a lot of truth in that. And sometimes you're not conscious, necessarily
right at the moment, or what's happening, you know, but I think there is, that's true, what
Paul says it, that the students are changing as they come in, they come in with different
different presuppositions, you know, and different questions and so on, and you have to
try to be responsive to that. But I'm wondering if today, you know, we we need not kind of
to go back, not necessarily in a way we did it, but we need to go back and help them as
I'm sure you're doing, to, to see the Christian religion as an exciting thing as a, as a
challenging thing. So that they be gripped by it again, you know, because I think is right,
as Paul says, we tend to that the seminary, now they come there, and they don't want to
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 3 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
study theology, they want to just study sociology. They don't want to study theology or, or
anything that goes with it. They don't want to study the Bible so much as as they just want
to know how to relate to the civil disorders, and all of that that's going on, how does it
relate to the black community and all of this. So now our battle is to help them to see
again, the relevance of the gospel and the wonder of the car, how that gospel really is
basic to, to society and to what we're trying to do for society.
J
John Stensvaag 11:10
But in the process, I think we need to get back to the Scriptures again, and and help them
into real knowledge of the Scriptures. Not necessarily in the way we did it before. Because
the situation has changed that I fail. Yes, I think that
P
Phil Quanbeck 11:34
I don't know how important this kind of it is. But I think that there is a sense in which that
Paul and I as, as your students, when you were a professor in the seminary, were really
strongly influenced by your teaching, and by the critical method that you introduced. And
I think that, that the development of the critical method in in courses in the college was
was a necessary development in any case, what have happened in any case at all. But I
think that the sort of background that I at least understand myself to have gotten
provided me with the, with the understanding, to do this really freely, you know, and
without being intimidated or, or bound in terms of the understanding of the tradition.
C
Carl Chrislock 12:38
Carl, again, john, a few moments ago, you talked about having been influenced by J.
Sigurd Melby, Si Melby in your as your predecessor. Now, perhaps this is getting off the
track that we were on? hope we can get back on it again. But I'm wondering if if you could
just make a few comments about maybe about his approach about how he taught
religion courses about how he conducted the religion department. I believe he was
chairman until 1937. I'm interested in that I've already handled him but I haven't handled
that aspect of it.
J
John Stensvaag 13:35
Well, he was primarily a Bible teacher, you know. I suppose he taught a few other courses. I
didn't have any other courses from him then in Bible courses. Hi. Wow. Yeah, that was not
in this in the religion department. He taught American history in college. Sure. But I think
his his concern was to to make the Bible alive. And I think he had a knack for teaching the
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 4 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Bible, he had a knack for making the Bible come alive, you know. And, and for us at that
time, I think this was very helpful and good. But I'm not, I don't think that his particular
method would necessarily appeal to young people today. The way he outline the
Scripture, and so on, he didn't raise any other critical questions at all. I can't remember
that in any way. He, he confronted us with these questions. You know, it was Bible content
that he was after and making the Bible alive. And he hadn't been dualistic approach to it.
Not only evangelistic, but nurture and evangelism kind of went hand in hand as he as he
did his work. And this was sort of that ethos out of which we then came and began to
teach
P
Phil Quanbeck 15:23
in this in this common doesn't have anything to do with Simon LB. But I want to make it in
the light of certain other things that we've said, I, I think that it would be true to St. JOHN,
that. And you mentioned this earlier, Paul, but the the Department of religion wanted its
courses to be academically responsible, and that whatever else they were, they weren't
intended simply to be religious experiences.They were intended to
requireacademicexcellence. They were intended to require intellectual reflection, so that it
wasn't simply, you know, kind of a non academic perspective. And I would guess that was
characteristic of the time that you began to teach in the college and I think
P
Paul Sonnack 16:26
This is Sonnack .You know, john, this is very interesting. I guess I've never heard you say
some of these things before. And as phila said, both he and I, I think I've been influenced
by you. A great deal more than you would like, perhaps to admit. But I, you know, you
mentioned that, that Simon LB was a man with that deep pastoral concern, and that he
was a Bible teacher that he made the Bible Come on live. Now, you know, when I reflect
on what happened to me in the Old Testament sequence in in the seminary, was that
really, for the first time, by the use of these critical methods? The Bible did, the Old
Testament really did come alive, like it never had before. And I think in other words, did
you were able to combine in a really remarkable fashion, and a genuine evangelical
thrust, the past pastoral concern, and yet to employ critical methods of the Bible in such a
way that in the study of the Bible, is it the way that they never really stood in the way of
this, but really were a means of communicating precisely this. And then I think, Carl, that
it's obvious here that there are some real a continuity in the in the department of religion,
from the time was 10, flags to Quebec, that I really like to argue, I think that the pastoral
concern has been a very, very powerful motive in, in the work of the department, and all
the methods employed, may have changed, you know, the adoption of, frankly, a critical
approach to the scripture now being suggested to college students, that those changes
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 5 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have come about, not at the price of a past or concern, I think I'd be willing to argue that,
at one point, we felt that it was absolutely necessary for the sake of manifesting pastor
concern that these methods be adapted. I don't know what you want to make out of that.
But I think, you know, there's there's continuity, and there is change. But I think both are
terribly important here.
C
Carl Chrislock 19:16
I think I want to direct this is john, this is right along the same lines. And do you think when
you and I were students here together, that there was among the students are in the
religion department? Any great fear of approaching these critical concerns are
approaching these these problems, you see, biblical research? And you know that, I don't
know if I'm getting across the point of the question.
J
John Stensvaag 19:50
Well, Stensvaag again, I don't know if there was any, any real fair, but it just, it just was one
of the pressing questions at the time. When you and I first came here, it wasn't actually till
I had gone away to graduate school, that all this came home to me, because the way it
was taught both in the college and the seminary here, started was a very great teacher,
but he was very cautious. When it came to the employment of the modern, critical
methods, this historical approach to the Scripture, that was almost non existent, really,
here in the seminary at the time, was only after going away, that this whole new world
opened up for me, I was very thankful for the teaching I had from start up, that's a very
great teacher. And I know now and I think back that he was aware of these issues, but he
has, as I said, was very cautious and didn't, didn't really enter in on this. So whether this,
that we were that there was any problem or that we were fearful of anything, I don't think
this was so it's only that we hadn't become a live to it, we hadn't really become alert to
this whole world. I think. So that that did come later it for me anyway. And I as I look back
now, I think that I wasn't responsive enough for a period of time to what was happening in
the college community. This is my feeling as I look back now that I stayed at two too long
at a certain level and didn't really respond to what was going on sufficiently. I didn't have
those fears in the seminary. But I think I had some fears in the College of disturbing the
faith and so on. And I think, as I look back on today that this was not the wisest approach.
Now, there are ways and ways of doing it. I think that with a pastoral concern, you want to
do it in such a way that you just don't leave them up in the air, you know, and just shoot
their faith to pieces and leave it there. I think you have to do it in such a way that, that
you are helping them into a new understanding, not without not in the process, destroying
the foundations of their faith.
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 6 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 22:35
And I'm not saying that's being done, but that's the tension you're in and trying to keep
the one and yet introduce each other. So as what Phil says, I think it's true that there is a
kind of nudity or pastoral concern, but in a new day, you have to express it in a new in a
new way. That's true. Yes,
P
Phil Quanbeck 23:02
I think that it might be true to say that the circumstance in which the Augsburg religion
department, or the Augsburg community in the 30s found itself was really of one sort with
other Lutheran colleges. I think that it was that the sort of religious instruction that one
done, and I speak, I think, from a great deal of ignorance here, but I have my impression is
that the sort of religious instruction that went on at St. Olaf was was not unlike that which
went on. It will be interesting to know if the cocoon you know if the movement didn't
happen as as soon at Augsburg as at some other places.
J
John Stensvaag 24:01
earlier [indecipherable]
C
Carl Chrislock 24:07
All right. You both said you're both agree that it happened earlier are required it
happened earlier. And Oxburgh any of you kind of tackle that? Is it the influence of the
tradition? Or was it the influence of
P
Paul Sonnack 24:22
I remember, I did pass on like I remember when I was when I first started teaching here at
Augsburg that Oh, Martin Hagglund and Theodore Hogan, Vic and those boys were still
teaching on itself. They were the big guns, and they were publishing books. You know, and
I read their stuff. And I thought it is for the birds, you know, good enough for saying, oh,
but not for deer logs. But I you know, I think there was a kind of a structure structured
thing, that these men were really concerned to lay on the student. Now, I don't I never felt
that that was really the case here at Augsburg. JOHN, what do you think about that?
J
John Stensvaag 25:14
I hope that I hope that's true that that we were in a way they have on guard here. Because
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 7 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I know what you mean, I remember Phil WX books, you know, on on the Old Testament, he
had a series of books on the Old Testament how I reacted negatively against this kind of
fossilized approach, complete unawareness of the critical method. And all of these, you
know, insisting on the mosaic authorship of all of the pen, a token all of that which we had
long since you might say abandoned. So I I hope it is true that we were not just in step, but
that we were a bit ahead. And I think that's it knew was true in the seminary, and therefore
it would spill over into the college too.
J
John Stensvaag 26:11
Yes, I think the climate was for your I definitely think so that there was a permissiveness
here that allowed this development sooner than happen in some of the other places
sooner than happen at Luther, for example. And Warren clambake who studied both
places, kind of a contemporary a man, you know, he found a much more openness here,
which was partly Dr. Swear to contribution, even though swelled up, as I said, didn't get in
on this. He he kind of opened the door by his way of teaching. Yes, he didn't. Yeah, Gerda
raised the question about Dr. Christensen's influence, and I didn't have him for a religion
teacher in college. So I couldn't say much about that in a seminary. We had him for a
short time before he became president. But he was a kind of a liberated spirit. It's true.
Although he he didn't, as far as I can tell, enter very much into this. This aspect, the more
historical and critical approach to Scripture. For him to the the thrust was nurture and
evangelism. As far as I remember.
G
Gerda Mortensen 27:47
This is Gerda Mortensen. Now I had many students come in to talk to me. During many of
these years, we had just gone through a war period regrowing after a war period. We were
in a metropolitan city. We had the leadership and the students came in said, I get the help
from Dr. Johnson spoke. Another one says, I get the help from Paul Sonic. I go, and here I
am a senior now. And I've gone through all this area of knowledge. And I get into that
class with Paul sack. And somehow he helps me think through all the issues in relationship
to life. And I just feel that now I I'm sort of orient the living again. And so I think that these
were some of the great things which happened. And both john and Paul were
tremendously influential in this because each student was an individual. And they would
go to one or the other of those that really wanted to help them. And and they found help.
And there was students who came and said, Ted, and the pastoral care idea. Today, I
found Christ in parks on its place, or today, I found Christ in Johnson.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:17
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 8 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
JOHN, you mentioned George Sverdup and the openness, the non explicit reference to the
critical methods. Now, I never had you as a teacher in college, and then the college lives
and of course, at least that I remember.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:46
But I think that it would be true to say that even though you're interested in, in getting
across the content of the Bible, and in the not interested in talking about the, the the
critical methods, there are is your suggested a couple of ways of doing that. And one of
the ways is to do it with a with a background which presupposes, you know, the mosaic
authorship of the pinner to a certain understanding of the Bible. And there's another way
that simply presupposes an openness. And I think that that's what was going on in in that
decade. I don't know, because, but I have a suspicion that that was the case. And then
when I became a teacher here in 57, Bernard Christensen wasn't teaching in the
department or anything, he was engaged in administration, that was his job. But I think
that it's true to say that, neither you, nor he directed the way that I should teach. And I'm
sure that you enjoyed all sorts of criticism. And that you probably both you and he got
letters during that time, but did not really impose the burden of those letters on the
members of the department. And I think that that's the kind of openness that was going
on.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:18
Speaking, we've had many other testimonials to that openness, Mrs. Lindemann in
particular, valued a great deal. It was something that she didn't expect when she first
came here. And she she stayed, of course, much more than the three months, some of our
friends predicted that you would. Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 31:41
All right.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:45
These things here, speak up. I was, I was interested in your comments, john, about Bernard
Christensen. Now, I never had his courses in philosophy that I think it's a matter of regret.
But I I recall his handling of that one quarter of freshman orientation. And that opened up
a great many things for me, and I think, was a very liberating experience. You remember,
he took up the evolution issue in science, and I was really surprised at the time that that
we could get that much liberation here. I hadn't expected that, because the, the, the views
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 9 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
some on evolution that I had heard and my own church and or led me to believe that this
was something you should really stay away from. And I'm, I'm wondering if on the basis of
some correspondence that I've seen, too, if more than he ever vowed if Brennan
Christmas and didn't feel like one of his functions here was to liberate people from some
of these hang ups. I mean, when he came here as a teacher in in 1930, you know, to make
them confront the, the world and its issues not to, of course, throw away the Christian
faith, but to do it within the context of the Christian faith. Do you do you have any any
any comments on that? Any further comments on that?
J
John Stensvaag 33:40
Stensvaag again. I don't really, it certainly is true, what you say about the orientation
course, where he talked about science and all of this, that this was the textbook itself, I
think was quite a contribution using that kind of a textbook. I'm only saying that in the
courses that I'm aware of. When it came to Scripture, he did not raise these critical
questions that we are raising. But then I think we ought to say to that some of the
questions that are being raised now we're not even in view at the time. Read Alex Jones,
kiss Schecter, you know, and form gearshift, and, and all of this, this hadn't even been
raised, or you couldn't expect, you know, that this should be be there at the time. And I
would say As for myself, I regret very much that I had such a poor background and New
Testament studies.
J
John Stensvaag 34:47
Because here at the seminary, it, it was just pitiful, really. And when I went away to to
graduate work, I did an Old Testament and New Testament was pretty much neglected, I
ordered some courses. So I'm but I said, look back now I feel that I would have been a
much better teacher in the college if I had had a better orientation and New Testament
studies. Because when I, when I taught the Old Testament in religion classes, then I did
introduce these critical things, the source theories JENP, and so on, I started talking about
that from the very beginning, when it came to the Old Testament, and the fact that some
of the material was perhaps secondary, and how we must understand Genesis one, not in
a literalist way and all that. But when it came to the New Testament, I was not really
aware enough of what was going on at the time to do the kind of work with the New
Testament material that I feel now that I ought to have done.
P
Paul Sonnack 35:55
Okay, this is an academic a comment, really trying be responsive to the question that
Terry raised a while back. She was wondering, you know, what was there about the
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 10 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
situation here that allowed this, this sort of freedom to handle the materials came out?
When I'm probably just putting in a pitch, but I wonder if it can't, if it can't be said that,
that the artist tradition in which Augsburg stood really made possible, that sort of
freedom to approach this even the study of the Scriptures if from a critical standpoint?
Yeah, I'd be very interested to hear what what john has to say about that. I don't know
whether that's an accurate analysis or not. But it seems to me that, that, that pirate his
movement did not insist upon adherence to explicit propositions or affirmations. But it
insisted upon the life of faith itself, which can be expressed in all different kinds of way in a
kind of freedom about doing that, john, if you got any comments on it?
J
John Stensvaag 37:25
Well, that may be true, Paul, as your story and and you, you can see this more clearly than
I can. But I have to confess that I came out of a very fundamentalist kind of patriotism,
which I think was true of many of our churches, at the time I came out of a scene was
constant out of the church there. And my background, was pretty much fundamentalist
thinking of the Scripture as literally inspired and to be literally understood, and so on. And
it, I think, that characterized many of our churches. But at the same time, it certainly is
true. And here, Dr. Christensen made a fine contribution that stayed away from this, at
least here at the seminary and in a college stayed away from this fundamentalist stick
approach from the very beginning. This is where I was helped a great deal in my college
year, got away from that, and, and from this attempt on the part of men to to say just how
the scripture were inspired just how inspiration must be understood, and Dr. Christensen
helped a great deal on that, that we don't want to get so hung up in the method of
inspiration and all of that, that we that we lose the sword of the Spirit, as he put it that
that that the word no longer is allowed to speak for itself. And I should say that Dr.
Norberg helped a great deal here. He was here for a short time, but he came. And now as I
think back upon it, he for me was sort of the beginning of opening up the door, because he
taught Genesis here one year after sort of was, was passed away, and coming out of
Norway, and so on, which was safe, you know, conservative, still, he was able to approach
this in a very different way. And which helped a great deal. And he also talked to a good
deal of abandoned and freedom. And I remember one of the lectures he gave, and that's
a long time ago now. But he kept emphasizing that for us, as Angelica goes, the right
approach was to listen to Scripture, what the scripture said, what was in the Scripture, and
not come with a pre formed notion of what the scripture was, and what the scripture said,
you know, so that there was an openness to Scripture. And I think this helped a great deal.
For me, and I'm sure it helped for a lot of other people. This partly accounts for this.
P
Paul Sonnack 40:02
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 11 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I think, Carl, that that makes my point really quite clear. And that is that john Augsburg
somehow was different from Racine. See, what you found here was not a spirit of
fundamentalism. But there was a warm spirit of pirate ism, in which you and others like
you had the liberty to, to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and the internet
necessitated the employment of historical literary methods, critical methods of studying
the Bible, that was something that was permissible.
P
Phil Quanbeck 40:45
This is another comment along this film, one MC, that this is another common along the
same line. I think that if, you know in my encounter with a critical method in Johnston
songs Old Testament course in the penta to the historical books, if that wasn't radically
upsetting part of it part of that. The explanation that lies in the fact that I don't recall, for
example, in my home, ever might ever being told that Moses wrote, or ever being afflicted
with a discourse on inspiration. I think that that was I'm sure there were fundamental
mystic direct characteristics that were present. But I think that that's an aspect that the
problem is was quite important in in my own life.
C
Carl Chrislock 41:49
When you're talking about this, sometime when you men over in the archives, I'll have to
dig up some of the correspondence between father and son. Yeah. There's the most
interesting exchange between George SkyDrive. He invariably wrote to his father in
English, that's interesting. His father wrote back in Norwegian, when he first enrolled at
Yale. Now at DAO, he had a rather very a gated program, of course, this and one of the
courses that he had gotten into frighten him a little bit involved the critical method, I think
it was Old Testament, I don't know anything about the AIDS orientation in 19. Two, and I
don't really understand the issues involved here. But at any rate, he wrote home, and was
concerned, he was cautious about it. And it was very interesting, the comment that his
father wrote back, I think I'm representing it correctly here, he said that, that this whole
question of inspiration is a very difficult one, it advanced, small, he didn't want to take any
particular view, he wanted to remain open on it. And then at the same time, he added to
kind of a caveat that you could just, you know, a critically analyze the scriptures to death,
you would lose their their, they would lose their meaning if if if the only thing you did to
them was to subject them to a critical anatomy, even though critical scholarship had its
place. I think this essentially is what he said. Now, that brings up another question here to
you were talking about this, when you were saying that these were some of these
questions, you know, with respect to the Scriptures, were not pressing questions. You
mean, in the Oxford community? They certainly had been pressing questions in the
American church community, generally, for much longer than that hadn't they?
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 12 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 44:03
Stensvaag the Lutherans. So we're slow, I think to get involved in this. They were Johnny
come lately. So when it came to this, and therefore I think, in our setting in our community,
these questions had not yet become vital, you know, pressing.
P
Phil Quanbeck 44:28
Again, I feel Quanbeck, again, speaking from modest amount of ignorance, I think that
might be asserted that, that these problems really didn't emerge in Lutheranism until the
decade of the 50s.
P
Paul Sonnack 44:46
I remember that. I don't know where this fits cow. But I think he does some wrong, I
remember when I was pulled out of a parish in northern Minnesota and sent down to that
God, this joint call the University of Chicago, you know, and I was exposed there to all this.
This critical method. You know, I think the only place where I had any comfort, any kind of
security was in Old Testament studies. Nowhere else and I think that what that experience
really meant for me, me, it's it really saved my life. At that moment, it really did. And I
think that what that experience meant for me was simply that, that if a person is going to
be a responsible teacher here in the 20th century, you must never hide that kind of stuff.
Because it's, it's it's going to appear sooner or later. So that I think I came to the
conviction that if I were to manifest any kind of religious concerns for my students, I
wouldn't Yes, I would precisely have to adopt critical methods just for that reason. I don't
know where that fits, but it I think it does.
C
Carl Chrislock 46:09
Well, it certainly does. Now, I'd like to go back a little here to unless there's somebody who
has any comments on this. I'm wondering if any of you gentlemen, in your experience, in
your experience within the religion department ever encountered, you know, any difficulty
or any? Well, let me back up just a little bit and say a while ago, it was postulated that
there was kind of a difference between the fundamentalism of Racine or the
fundamentalism one Domingo, for that matter, and the openness that you had here. Now
did, did that difference ever come to open confrontation? create any
P
Phil Quanbeck 47:00
Quanbeck: That's a surprise is...never. [laughing] It did happen, Carl, but in the year of our
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 13 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Lord 1960, was it that some of the things that the Department of religion had been doing,
and I think some of the things that it really had been doing for quite a while, came to
some visibility. I think some negative visibility, particularly through the creative work of
one of the members of the Luther and free church. And yes, that's right. That's right. I think
the No, I think that that's true, though, that the man who raised the question was, is, is a
man who whose roots didn't that didn't go back isn't to say that there weren't people like
him in the open Free Church, but at least in this particular instance. And we had a
discussion I think in, in Oak Grove Lutheran Church, I don't remember the exact date. But
certain criticisms of the department had been written down and the level that the
department and a number of people in the department then went to Oprah, one
afternoon, Oak Grove Lutheran Church, and we talked about some of the issues, we
thought we talked about some of the issues involved. I think that the, the issues between
the people who were raised them and the department were not solved. But I think that
there was a sense in which the visibility, the openness, which that confrontation brought
about was basically a good thing for the department. And I would, this is just kind of
guessing. But I would guess that it was good for not only for the Augsburg department of
religion, but for departments of religion at other Lutheran colleges as well. But that's only I
guess, there's nothing substantive to back that up.
C
Carl Chrislock 49:53
Chrislock speaking, I think we have a full transcript of that meeting down in the archives.
And I was wondering if you had any evidence of being good? Or having the having had
the benefits and effect on other religion departments? Did you get any any reactions from
any members of other religion departments on this? Do either of the rest of you want to
comment on on this general question? You know, it has seemed to me or did seem to me
that. I wondered, sometimes. I think I wondered about this a little when I was a student.
And I want and I've certainly wondered, since if, if we've always been courageous enough
in, in, in presenting our openness. You know, there seems to me there's such a lag between
there has been such a lag between college and congregation here in this regard. I don't
know if, if this makes sense or not, you know, on some of these issues.
J
John Stensvaag 51:16
Let me just say one thing. This is a something that has been told me again and again, that
our pastors after the merger with the American Lutheran Church in 1963, got involved in
some of the discussions about the Word of God, here and there. And they were surprised.
These men have told me that number of pastors, they were surprised at the kind of
fundamentalism that they encountered in some of the pastors of the same vintage, you
know, who had come from other seminaries like capital and Luther, who we're still
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 14 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
troubled by some of the questions, which to our pastors, we're not problems and we're not
troublesome. So that the Lutherans alert and that group, you know, these real Am I say,
fundamentalists in approach to Scripture, anyway, they did not represent the men came
coming out of Augsburg and Augsburg seminary. Our men had really encountered this
and come to terms with it. And we're not troubled by questions which are very disturbing
to some of the other pastors of the same age.
P
Phil Quanbeck 52:49
Phil, would it be true to say, Jen, that that also, with regard to the association, that though
the larger number of pastors in the group in these Association, we're we're not to pastors
who would come out, let's say from 45. And then, would you?
J
John Stensvaag 53:16
Yes, I think that's absolutely true. You look at the at the man. Now, there are a few
younger man, like snips, dude, but he is a graduate of Saskatoon seminary, and not a
graduate of our expert seminary. And apart from that, john strand, graduated from the
seminary. I think the first year I was back here teaching. Right your ground? Yeah. And now
he started with an exception. He sort of an exception, I think
P
Paul Sonnack 53:58
you're racing currently pause how you're raising house question. Again. I've kind of been
mulling this over my mind. I don't really know how to answer it tomorrow. But I think
there's something to what you are suggesting. Namely, this that here at Augsburg, both in
college and seminary there was sort of freedom in relation to critical questions. But that
some of the congregation's in the Lutheran Free Church really didn't manifest that same
sort of spirit. Is that the kind of thing you're after? Now, I'm not really sure that I that I
know the answer to that. But I suspect that a great many of the other congregations in
the Free Church had felt the influence of the whole fundamentalist movement in
American Protestantism. And I think some of the difficulty with our friend out at Oak
Grove was the fact that in his theological poverty, he tended to identify a fundamentalist
position with Lutheran orthodoxy. And he thought, therefore, that, that he was being able
to impugn what the department was doing from the point of view of Lucien orthodoxy.
And that's the that's the irony of the situation. I I interpreted, the department is really
manifesting here in this way, a Lutheran concern for the gospel, then we had a
fundamentalist, you know, impugning us for being heretics, when almost really precisely
the opposite was, was the case. Now, you know, I'm just guessing here, I don't I don't really
know, I think that there was some distance and not in every case. Now Phil has eluded due
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 15 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
to the fact that it was not the case in his home, I can testify to the fact that it was never
the case in my home, that that attention was called to certain prohibitions in thought and
so on. But But I think that fundamentalism did have something to say about the attitude
of a great many people in Lutheran congregations, you know, think of the great influence,
for example, the Moody Bible Institute and and parishes here in the in the Lutheran Free
Church Midwest. Well, does that. Does that move in the direction? Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 56:42
Quality when you say Lutheran orthodoxy, you're a historian, but I think Lutheran
orthodoxy tended to move in the direction of fundamentalism. Luther, himself was an
open spirit, you know, but I think after him, there came kind of a rigid, rigid kind of
approach to Scripture, which go out found a real response in fundamentalism, there came
to be a closeness between this kind of rigid orthodoxy that develop in the period after
Luther. But Luther himself obviously, would be a kindred spirit to this approach that we're
talking about.
P
Paul Sonnack 57:36
Well, let's listen. Let's be careful about those euro Puritans, you know, I don't want to
nitpick here. And I'm maybe the use of the word Orthodoxy is not important, though I
myself think that there's a vast difference between even 17th century Lutheran orthodoxy
and fundamentalism, really. But would you in general, would you agree with the point to
where the where the abstract that that fundamentalism did make its inroads and new
features congregations?
P
Phil Quanbeck 58:09
I think that the influence was, was felt, feel Coinbase the influence was felt via VA Moody
Bible Institute and via fundamentalist stick radio preachers, because that's the easiest
way to proclaim, and I think that is and radio and they would it be right to say the easiest
way to get monetary response from your listeners?
P
Paul Sonnack 58:54
You know, to make a theological point, I think that basic difference is that, that
Lutheranism has always recognized the priority of the gospel. And I think that
fundamentalism really has tried to approach an understanding of Christian religion,
really, in terms of law. That is to say, Christianity must be understood in terms of some
fundamental propositions which are unalienable and which have to be accepted. And
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 16 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
that's got the force of law, not the force that gospel behind it. That's why I think there's a
difference between Lutheranism and fundamentalism. Even listen orthodoxy on
orthodoxy. God bless.
C
Carl Chrislock 60:00
You know, I've been Chris, like speaking, I've been very, and this is, I guess, aside from
anything that will concern within the history that is directly but I think somebody else with,
you know, with good theological grounding, would find the study of past persons
editorials and talk about it through the 20s pretty rewarding, because I think that talk
about it in the 20s, reflects the fact that fundamentalism was having an impact in certain
areas of the Lutheran Free Church. I think he was aware of this. And I think in certain
respects, he was trying to counter it. He had some very interesting editorials there he, he
had one editorial, for example, on modernism, he was wanting his reader that is readers
that this term was being thrown around entirely too, too easily, because he, he talked
about that there were some religious understandings that were had a liberal mutability
about them, you see, and cited some examples. Inside of the case of poverty, this was
much less inevitable today than it had been regarded before. And that, generally is
century before theologians had defended slavery. And on the evolution question, he, of
course, was during the scopes trial, he was very sympathetic to Brian, it has to be said, but
every time he mentioned, Brian, he would add the caveat that he thought he was crazy on
his notion of inspiration,
J
John Stensvaag 61:36
you know, [tape breaks in recording]
P
Paul Sonnack 61:47
testing One, two, testing 123,
J
John Stensvaag 61:56
Free Church didn't grow their couple of pastors and right. Wow, there was a resolution.
C
Carl Chrislock 62:22
Well, where do we go from here?
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 17 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
P
Paul Sonnack 62:26
You know, there's another about both continuity and change in the department of religion
in terms of the adoption of critical method of studying the scriptures and so on. Would
there be any sense in exploring that theme of continuity and, and change with respect to
a view of the church's involvement in, in society?
C
Carl Chrislock 62:56
Yes, go ahead.
J
John Stensvaag 62:59
What do you mean, go ahead, explore?Well, I'd like to hear john SJ something about this. I
know Carla GU developed some views about, about the concerns of sweat dripping off
the dial in this regard. And I think that there has been a kind of a continuity of emphasis
here all the way through. I know when I when I came to Australia as a student in 1938, one
of the first guys I ran up against was that Joel Carstensen, who was teaching here at this
time, and he began right then and there to open up for me and brand new world entirely.
I'm not sure, however, that that concern was, at that time reflected in the religion
department. JOHN, what do you think?
J
John Stensvaag 63:55
I think that's probably right. And I was trying to think of the course that you taught when
you first started, it was something about Christianity and the world or I don't remember
exactly. But I think Christian faith in the modern world well, but that was the kind of a
beginning of breaking into this. So that I think, Paul, in many ways, translated part of this
heritage into a concern expressed in the religion department, which I think until that time
had been muted, if not absent, which we can see from looking, I think, at the offerings in
the religion department. The first year, we had basic Bible, the second year, second
quarter, it was church history. And I don't remember comparative religion. missionary
enterprise, but but the mission, our enterprise was foreign mission enterprise. And and I
don't think there was anything there explicitly, at least, which related the Christian gospel
to the world today, which Paul, I think began to do.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:20
Well, this is a very interesting theme to Chris, like speaking, to explore, you know, through
the whole history of the college is something that I'm, I'm very interested in, you find that
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 18 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
one strategy when after I first came here, they certainly gave the impression of wanting to
be involved in wanting to take responsibility in the broadest way. I don't have any other
quotes here. But I think one thing that could be cited is the early history of focus on it. And
that was first public in 1877, as a means of helping the great fund drive of that year. And I
think it was discovered that after Don had such a flair for being a journalist, that it was
taken up again, and he took it up with swagger. And I've been through the files of folks,
when they were joined editors, from about 1779 to 1883. And I was really astonished at the
breadth of concern that they had. And they the paper dealt with virtually everything that
was of significance Astro Hungarian, German Russian relations, internal politics in Norway,
internal politics in France, anti semitism in Germany, the registers in southern politics. And
I, I wasn't aware of a terribly conscious effort, you know, to apply theological position in
evaluating all of these things, but at least this was a a concern of this. Now, it's also
interesting that they came under a great deal of fire, a great deal of criticism for being
involved in this, what was calling Redis, like a blog, a secular paper.
C
Carl Chrislock 67:27
And I don't know how much you, you gentlemen have read about the controversy in 1883,
when spend rude gunners left, but one of the big issues in that controversy got to be the
propriety of theological professors being involved with the secular paper. And, and, yeah,
very lately, it was very left to center by the by the standards of the time it reflected the
views of the vents through in Norway, you see. Now, later on, I don't know why, why this
happened. But later on. It seemed it and this was true after down to that they're
concerned on social issues, narrowed down very largely to the prohibition question. You
know, this became after dad was a member of the prohibition party, a very active
member, and there got to be sort of a one issue. deal here. It was just as if maybe. So, it
kind of like that. Now, I think here to you know, that, that there's some interesting things
about our experts environment, and the supporting churches environment with the, with
the prohibition movement. It was a little bit invited, it was a little bit ambivalent here. On
the one hand, there was this thing that I've talked about this narrowing of concern almost
entirely to that one issue. But then, on the other hand, you know, the, the prohibition
movement did involve association with some of the Reformed Church groups. And it
seems to me that the Friends of Augsburg in the early 90s and Gluten Free Church
afterwards was possibly a little more open to those associations on behalf of prohibition,
then, say the Norwegian Synod was a Norwegian sin, it actually took a position rather
hostile to belonged to temperance societies. This was being yoked with unbelievers, the
church, they said, was the true temperance society. You see, so it sort of worked both
ways. But I do feel like maybe this is a reflection of a beef that I had, when I was young, I
thought that there got to be, you know, this, this complete concern with this one issue to
the exclusion of other issues. So I in a way, this this broad and social concerned, I mean, to
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 19 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
jump into hitch up with what you said, when you talk about Parsons, and so on. I think that
in one sense, this was a recovery of, of a value that we had had earlier and through
combination of circumstances had had been obscured a little bit.
P
Paul Sonnack 70:38
Yes. That was Paul Sonnack. Now, you know, apparently, I can't pick up the story here. I
don't know what happened in between, in between the time that the 18th amendment was
added to the Constitution, and what the Augsburg creeper was in there, you know, as a
kind of a parents medical remark. I think the whole prohibition movement is kind of a, an
interesting movement itself, at least in this sense, that the movement began, really as a as
an attempt on the part of the reformers to persuade people to stop drinking, or to quit
making this stuff. And it ended up really by enacting legislation, so that they put that
whole business over over the whole country. In other words, there's a shift here and tactic
from persuasion to legislative coercion. I don't I don't really know what that means. yet.
But I think that's a kind of a significant shift. But now, you know, let that go. I think. And I
learned this from Joe Torre since and but I think I really learned from Bernard Christensen
to, I learned a lot of things from Bernard Christensen. I think that what I what I learned in
the question of the relation of church to society, from from men like this, was that in the
expression of, of Christian love for the neighbor, one can proceed in different ways.
P
Paul Sonnack 72:22
One can seek for example, to, to ameliorate distress, you know, in obedience to the
biblical injunction to care for the widow and the orphan. And so and so, you can do this,
then by developing works of charity, great philanthropic enterprises. And I think that there
was no attempt on the part of these men to debunk that enterprise. But I think beyond
that, what they taught me is that, that if a Christian man is to live in love's for the
neighbor, he must also manifest some concern for the issues of justice in society. And I
think I learned from them, that the Christian therefore must understand something about
the structures of society and what they can do to an individual. And one has to add some
concern for the dynamics of social change. And all this kind of thing. I don't think that the
free church itself ever put that into effect. But I think that kind of a lesson was around here
at Augsburg way back then. And you know, as I see it, now, it's in the American Lutheran
Church, we're just really beginning to understand the significance of that rather crucial
distinction, I think. Now, I don't know what again, what to make out of all this. I'm just
testifying to the fact that this was well,
C
Carl Chrislock 74:10
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 20 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Are there any further comments? No, it is five o'clock and working days. The working day
is about past. You all have families to come home to any parting shots here?
P
Phil Quanbeck 74:27
I hesitate to put such a film one day Pardon me. I hesitate to put such a flippant comment
at the end. I I do had Joel Torstensen as a teacher. And one I think of the influential
teachers as I remember him in my life, so influential that when I graduated from college,
I'm sure you don't remember this, john. But when I graduated from seminary, rather, I was
debating whether or not I should pursue graduate course in sociology, and I remember
talking to you about this at one point. But but the column that I want to make is that more
radical than the critical method in my life was the discovery the Johnston's what was the
Democrats.
C
Carl Chrislock 75:27
Any other comments? I can add here, of course, that the Augsburg and the free churches
and the NEA reckoning one of the conferences, identification with with republicanism has
been much magnified by legend. Folk blot it, in effect was supporting William Jennings
Bryan in 1896, I think after dark had control of the editorial policy, then they spoke very
kindly of him, of course, when the prohibitionist candidate came to town, he was the one
that had the real answer, but they were sympathetic to Brian and to free silver, they were
oriented towards the populists. Earlier, UC. And I know that Peter Blegen told me that too,
that his father had been,
P
Phil Quanbeck 76:17
you know, a great admirer of
C
Carl Chrislock 76:19
Brian. And there's another thing that's kind of fascinating here over the years, I don't know
if you know, Charlie Stang along or have heard of him, if I told you about him. He was a
classmate of George SkyDrive class of 98. He went down to Colombia, took his PhD in
political science, he served in the diplomatic service for a while. And then he became a
professor of political institutions in Germany. Now he was, he was, you know, by the
standards of his time very far left. He was a supporter of Debs in 19, eight, for example,
and he, there's a whole final correspondence from him to George, unfortunately, George's
responses on there,
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 21 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 77:02
you know,
C
Carl Chrislock 77:03
and he had the highest regard, Charles Stangl and did for for George's father,
77:09
he felt that he'd been one of the most important
C
Carl Chrislock 77:12
influences in his life and staying around was anything but evangelical, you know,
77:18
in.
C
Carl Chrislock 77:21
I think he probably I better not say, because
J
John Stensvaag 77:38
religion department and I am certainly appreciative of the need for change and the way
in which it's moved. But I am concerned that we don't lose sight of the nurture Hello.
There. So I don't know what's happening. But I but in this day and age as and every age, I
think we have to have concern for these people as individuals, and try to teach in such a
way that that we attract them to the Christian faith, and make exciting for them the
Christian faith. It isn't enough to be scholarly, I think this is important. And as Phil pointed
out, I don't think that ever was absent from the concern of the department. And now the
scholarly concerned finds other expressions as is necessary in our day but but just so we
don't get so wrapped up in the mechanics of the process, we cite the first person to to get
a raise of the greatness of the gospel and the greatness of the Christian now, enterprise.
This would be my concern, as it would be of any pastor. And I'm sure it's a concern of fail
as head of department that that with the other way don't lose this concern.
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 22 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 23 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript of Oral History with Vernon Jensen
RG 21.4.2019.11.08 JensenVernon
0:01
This is Vernon Jensen. The date is November 8, 2019.
0:10
September 1941 began a whole new life for me. I was entering into the world of higher
education. My uncle, Martin Bloomquist, had loaned me $200 To en... Show more
Transcript of Oral History with Vernon Jensen
RG 21.4.2019.11.08 JensenVernon
0:01
This is Vernon Jensen. The date is November 8, 2019.
0:10
September 1941 began a whole new life for me. I was entering into the world of higher
education. My uncle, Martin Bloomquist, had loaned me $200 To enable my enrollment
at Augsburg College in Minneapolis, where the tuition was only $90 per year. I had
saved some money for my CCC days--that's the Civilian Conservation Corps--days, and
my summer employment in the Lindstrom bakery ice cream shop. Martin never let me
paid back the $200, so it was a gift. Not a loan. I have always been grateful that he was
willing to help me get started.
1:00
My close friend Dick Frost, and I became roommates on the second floor of Augsburg's
men's dormitory, Memorial Hall. He had a part-time job at his uncle's grocery store on
27th and Lake Street, which was a short streetcar ride from Augsburg. Through
Augsburg's Student Employment Bureau, I secured a job washing dishes in a small
mom-and-pop restaurant in downtown Minneapolis, a block away from the armory and
across the street from Bemis Bag Company, whose workers made up most of our noon
lunch customers. I had to purchase a bike to get to work at noon, and back quickly to
class, and then back to work for the evening meal. Bikes, not cars were common on the
campus scene. I received free meals, which included a bag lunch prepared by the
restaurant owners, for my dorm room breakfast, which was kept outside my dorm room
window for refrigeration.
2:14
Classes and on the semester schedule included German human anatomy, English,
Bible and Physical Education. I found that I could handle them okay, with a sort of a B+/
A-minus average, which gave me the confidence I needed. Extracurricular opportunities
at this small college enabled me to continue my high school interests and expand into
new ventures. I continued playing my trumpet in the band, and sang in the Choral Club,
which is a second-level group compared to the college choir. I played on the freshman
basketball team, which practiced in the Minneapolis Armory, making it handy for my
dishwashing duties a block away. I joined the Writer's Club and the International
Relations Club. I was a member of the debate team, and it was very meaningful to go to
debate tournaments, for example, by train to Concordia College in Moorhead, or to an
important local one at St. Thomas and St. Paul.
3:30
It was an awfully good feeling to be with upperclassmen in such an activity. I
participated in the college oratory contest in the spring and constructed the speech,
"One World Indivisible," which stressed my internationalist views as against those
isolationist views, which were fairly strong in some quarters. These and other activities
enabled me to make a number of friends and expand my interests. Some weekends in
the fall were spent hitchhiking to Lindstrom, to work in the bakery. Rides were fairly easy
to count on, for hitchhiking in those days was somewhat common. I remember studying
my German flashcards, a German [word] on a small card, with the English word on the
reverse side, as I waited for a ride, so as to make the best use of time.
4:36
Daily chapel at Augsburg was compulsory, with men and women segregated. Toward
the end of my first year, our speech class had an assignment to construct some speech
working toward improvement of campus life. And I remember holding forth that men and
women should not be segregated. A girl in the class agreed with me, so we went in to
see President Christensen with our suggestion. He listened courteously and
implemented such a change shortly thereafter. I think he was surprised by these naive
and brash freshmen, however, and he suggested that if we had any other ideas for
campus reform, we should take them to the student council first. While I didn't
appreciate very much the conservative and dogmatic preaching in chapel, it was a
learning experience to formulate my own religious positions by confronting these
contrary views and emphases.
5:44
Pearl Harbor, December 7, 1941, meant that college dreams may have to be set aside
or even forgotten. Along with other college students, I joined the Army Reserves, which
permitted us to remain in school until called up for active service. In March 1943, shortly
after the beginning of the second semester, I was called to active service and inducted
at Fort Snelling, along with many other college students from around the state. I ended
up serving in an engineer regiment in Europe, and was discharged from the Army in
January 1945. I arrived back home via the train, and the old branch line from Wyoming
to Lindstrom had lanterns swaying from the ceilings. It was, of course, an emotional
reunion with mother. After those uncertain years, I had written to her weekly, usually
Sunday evenings, throughout my army life.
6:58
Well, I immediately explored returning to college and thought it would be more practical
to wait for the spring term at the University of Minnesota, rather than rush into the
second semester at Augsburg, which began the first week of February. However,
attending an Augsburg basketball game at the armory, and meeting familiar faculty and
students, nudged me into returning to Augsburg. And I'm glad I did, for I was able to
move right into studies and activities, which were very meaningful and rewarding. My
courses at the University of Kentucky and Shrivenham in England during the war,
transferred with no problems, so I could plan to graduate in three semesters.
7:47
In the spring, I was elected student body president for 1946-47, and this opened up
many leadership opportunities. I attended the founding of the National Student
Association at the University of Chicago. I'd seen some of the organizers at the
conference in London the previous fall, and in the following year organized a gathering
at Augsburg of student body presidents of the Minnesota State and Private Colleges,
supporting various projects on behalf of students, like the Student Union facilities in the
basement of the newly-constructed Augsburg Science Building, and furthering the
interests of students in various situations was a challenging and interesting
responsibility.
8:37
As Student Body President, I was contacted by the rector of the state young Republican
Party to start a group at Augsburg. While I was hardly a Republican, I was strongly
interested in one of their main endeavors at the time, which was to nominate for the
U.S. Senate someone to unseat the Republican Senator Henry Shipstead, who, along
with Senator Langer in North Dakota, were the only two votes against having the U.S.
join the United Nations, which of course, [was] strongly advocated by Harold Stassen
and other more liberal Minnesota Republicans. In fact, at a small gathering of about 12
student leaders, I was invited to have lunch with Stassen at St. Olaf. I felt strongly the
need for an international outlook. And while overseas, I was embarrassed to have to
say to my fellow GIs that Shipstead was indeed from my home state.
9:40
I hasten to add that when I became a young instructor at Augsburg a few years later, I
was instrumental in organizing a Democratic Club to balance my former error. I might as
well confess at this point, that I've been a lifelong Democrat, though I obviously crossed
party lines in a number of instances. I lived in a room in the real Old Main building
before it came down. But in my senior year, I roomed on the third floor of Memorial Hall
with [Victor] Vic Emerson, [Seymour] Sy Nelson and [Arthur] Art Rholl. double-bunks
were now the standard, for the flood of returning students exceeded available dorm
facilities.
10:26
Part-time employment was at Fairview hospital, where I mopped floors, cleaned
windows, changed drapes, ran the elevator--which were operated by humans in those
days--and did other housekeeping chores. I also waited on tables in the Augsburg
dining hall, which was then in the basement of Memorial Hall, and which served men
and women who came over from the girls' Siversten Hall dorm by Fairview, and in
semi-formal atmosphere, with white tablecloth, and we waiters in white jackets. These
were pleasant jobs, and the proximity to the Campus saved much time.
11:11
I continued my prewar interest in participating on the Debate Team, and in the
International Relations Club. I became a member of the tennis team, and we tied St.
Thomas for the state championship in my senior year. We practiced and played home
matches at Riverside Park. My major was history, and my minor was speech,--no major
yet available in speech. And I enjoyed those subjects and other courses very much. I
even took piano for a semester, in part because I realized how appreciated were those
GIs, who could play the piano in the recreation halls of army camps. I took education
courses to qualify to teach in Minnesota high schools, and did two weeks of practice
teaching in Milaca, Minnesota. My friend from Lindstrom days, Clayton Oberg, was
pastor of the Methodist church there, and he and his wife, Mary, invited me to live with
them.
12:16
My student government and part-time work probably did cause my grades to suffer a
little, but I was happy to graduate Cum Laude. I feel that I definitely got a strong
academic grounding for graduate studies. Our Commencement program was held in
Trinity Lutheran Church, a couple of blocks from the college, which was the site for all
large college functions. The church building was later demolished when the freeway
was built. I was chosen to be class speaker, which was a meaningful experience. The
excellent commencement address was given by Governor Luther Youngdahl.
13:01
I received my M.A. at the University in June, 1948, and in the meantime, President
Bernard Christansen at Augsburg asked me if I would be interested in teaching
European history and speech at Augsburg 1948-49. I was honored to have the
opportunity. I had three sections of European civilization, and my speech obligations
included coaching the debate team and administering the annual oratory contest. It was
a lot of work, but I thoroughly enjoyed it. And again, it gave me confidence that I could
actually teach at the college level.
Show less
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from... Show more
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota, but originally my
family's from a city in Somalia called Kismayo. They immigrated here about
25 years ago to America, but specifically Nashville, Tennessee, and after
living in Nashville for about two months and hearing that there was a
growing Somali community in Minneapoli, they moved here on their own like,
besides the asylum, they were given to Nashville. And once they reached
Minneapolis, they lived on Franklin Avenue for about two years.
Sahra Tobe 0:58
So you spoke a little bit about your family coming to the States. How long
ago did they come?
Salma Ahmed 1:04
Yeah, well, they came about 25 years ago, it'll be 25 years on August 31,
2020. I know the date specifically. But, um, ya know, so they came here
because of a civil war that was growing in Somalia, it wasn't not a
growing, but like a civil war that still continues to happen till this
day. And so by that by the time it started, three of my older siblings
were already born. And they had my, my other brother was on his way. So a
couple years after, so still couple of years before they came to America,
but they didn't want to raise their children in those conditions. And
like, obviously, they were looking for them to have the opportunities that
they were given growing up, and if not more. So once they came here, they
settled down on Franklin Avenue, like I said, and they lived in a
townhouse for a while, then after that they lived in another house. And up
until like our current house, so they were like lucky enough to have a
house built for them by Habitat for Humanity in like city center,
Minneapolis.
Sahra Tobe 2:18
And you guys are currently at that house still?
Salma Ahmed 2:20
Yeah, we're still at the house. So like, it'll be 20 years in this house
this may.
Sahra Tobe 2:25
So quickly, I kind of want to ask you a little bit about the neighborhood
that you grew up in. What was the neighborhood like and what do you
remember about it from your childhood?
Salma Ahmed 2:36
So it was always a predominantly white neighborhood still to this day it's
predominantly white. It's just it's just growing out to have like more
immigrants, more people of color in general. But I didn't go to school in
the area myself like I went to school in Minneapolis, I grew up in
Minneapolis Public Schools, but like my older siblings, I live right next
to a high school called Roosevelt High School, but don't come to my house.
I'm just kidding. But um, yeah, so my older siblings went there but like,
just like with like, a lot of other like city center high schools, like
becomes really dangerous, like fights break out and like parents, parents
don't know why that happens. So they just take their kids away from the
school. So I went to a high school still in my area, but like a little bit
further away called South High School. But yeah, like growing up in,
growing up in the same district, I always like went to school with like,
predominantly people of color just because of like geographically where
they were located. And it just made more sense for those demographics to
come to those schools.
Sahra Tobe 3:42
So can you speak a little bit about you said your family decided to come
to Minnesota because of the growing Somali community here. How did that
contribute to your childhood was it Do you remember like maybe being on a
lot of Somali people you when you were younger? Did that does not occur to
you as much as it mattered to your parents? What do you remember of that?
Salma Ahmed 4:05
Um, okay, well, what I remember was like of course my parents always cared
about like being around like, people that were similar to them just
because like who doesn't want to be around someone who really can
understand their experience where they don't have to explain why things
are the way they are too. But like my parents cared mostly about like
being around like other Muslims because like when it comes down to like it
no matter how much someone is similar to you like if they don't have the
same faith as you then like, you're not the same. But so like, for me like
as a kid, it didn't really matter to me I didn't like make many Muslim
friends in school however, like I always went to Dugsi, which is like for,
some people don't know what Dugsi is. It's like Sunday school, but on like
the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And essentially, you learned the Quran
like, mainly memorization like I know is like, I don't know if it's like
every Muslim community but in the Somali community it's very, very, very
focused on memorization. And yeah, so memorization and then also like some
Islamic studies but it's like mainly memorization like learning like
having homework, and then passing it to your teacher we call it like
basically teacher testing on your memorization like how you pronounce
things. There's this thing like in the ruling of the Quran like reading
it's this thing called Tajweed. So you kind of get tested on, Tajweed is
like grammar and so you kind of get tested on like how well you know your
grammar how well you memorize and things like that.
Sahra Tobe 5:35
Yeah, so in terms of going to Dugsi and things like that, did you, how did
you feel growing up balancing school five days a week and then also Dugsi
on the weekends?
Salma Ahmed 5:46
So I, I didn't know, I didn't balance it. So I didn't realize how much I
actually had on my plate until like, I was like in early High School,
maybe Late Middle School because it was just such a routine from such a
young age like you be essentially essentially start going to Dugsi like
when you start going to school like around five, six years old. You start
like learning your alphabet you start learning like small words like an
English terms this is but so I really didn't know how to balance it
because it was like all I ever knew. So I never knew like a free weekend
or like I never knew like a sleeping in morning because every day like I
was on the go. And it wasn't like, I favored one or the other. Because
like me, I love Dugsi, like growing up. I know, like a lot of kids that I
grew up with even my siblings. They didn't like love Dugsi, because like,
Oh, it's like very firm. It's not as easy as school where like American
school you have like a lot of leeway and like you have like recess and
lunch time and I mean, lunch is not a privilege, but you know, it becomes
one when you have recess with it. But, um, so yeah, like I loved it
because I was really good at memorization. And I was always, like,
appreciated by my teachers for like, being good at it. And while like, I
was good at school, like I it was just like you were among the other kids,
like everyone was good at school, like it's hard not to be good at third
grade multiplication because like the teacher, if you're not good, then
the teacher will make sure you catch up to be good, you know? And so Dugsi
like wasn't like that because there was like always, it wasn't age based
It was like more like level based. So once my mom realized like I was like
actually doing well in Dugsi, she put me in an accelerated program called
Tahfeed. Where like you're in Dugsi for like your whole day. This is like
also why I didn't know that I was like, handling it. Because I was so used
to something like my I was in Tahfeed like, from the age of nine to I
would say maybe like eight to 11 because um, like, it, Okay, so first it
was accelerated, but also like, it really like tested your knowledge which
I like I really like to be challenged when I know I'm good at something
which is kind of egotistical to say but I'll say it but um so yeah so
you're like challenged and also like you learn more than just memorization
of the Quran but like Islamic Studies and like you're also with people who
like also enjoy Dugsi because there's like Dugsi you can survive like not
liking it because like your parents send you there you can like pass your
Ashar, Ashar is what we call the homework but you can pass your Ashar and
then like go home and like move on like get to your next day. Like in
Tahfeed, you can't not want to be there. So that's why I liked it because
my peers were like just as interesting in learning the Quran and the Deen.
Deen is like our faith. Deen is like what we call it Islam. But um, so um,
yeah, like so that's why I really liked it because like, it was so it was
so fulfilling. To like, know that, like I love my faith and like I've
loved it from like a really young age I've loved learning the Quran and
I've loved like learning about the Deen because I just find it to be so
just and so right like, and I'm so happy like I was born into Islam. So
when like I had classmates and peers who enjoyed it just as much as me.
And I can't share that like relationship with kids at school because like
I said, Before, I wasn't friends with Muslim kids at school, or I can't
share with like my siblings, since they didn't like Dugsi, like me and my
older sister were in the program together. But we also have like a four
year age gap, which is what I liked about the program like you were tested
on your knowledge not your age. And school kind of limits you in that
aspect, where it's like, you can't just be smart, it's you're in this
grade. So like, this is the level you're at, and it was never like, hey,
like you're so smart. Like let's challenge you in this aspect. Elementary
School, nobody's trying to challenge you. Like Middle School, no one's
trying to challenge you. You really only have like room to challenge
yourself once you become an adult. So and like, you can't beg for a
challenge because once it gets too hard, then it becomes 'oh, but you
wanted this'. So that's what I really appreciated about Dugsi growing up,
it was like different in that aspect from school.
Sahra Tobe 10:09
You spoke a little bit about being really good at Dugsi to the point where
your mother had you moved up into like an accelerated course.
Salma Ahmed
Yeah.
10:16
Sahra Tobe 10:17
So that shows that, like, a certain level of like, involvement from your
parents on your parents end. Would you say they were as involved in like
your schoolwork and things like that?
Salma Ahmed 10:29
Yeah. So growing up, like, each of my parents kind of had like a focus.
Like my mom, she's, um, she was always invested in like my Dugsi learning,
making sure I learned the Quran like even till this day. Like now I
finished the Quran and I don't go to Dugsi anymore. But my mom she's
always like telling me like I should read because, like, I don't want to
like get punished for like learning something and not utilizing it, like
utilizing the resource that God gave me. And so, like, I appreciate my mom
in that aspect because she's like, involved in every aspect of my life,
like she cares about a lot about my schooling, but she herself wasn't
given that much of an education growing up, so she couldn't help me as
much. But like she always like was trying to like give me resources like
send me to the library to learn. Like, I'm always like, asking, like, for
tutors for me, like she was always like vouching for me and like, kind of
like, being my lawyer, like in my educational life, whether it was Dugsi
or school, but my dad, he himself, like, cared a lot about Dugsi, he's
like involved, he was always like, taking us and picking us up and
whatever. But he cares, like for sure a lot about school. Like, my
education, like my dad's always asking me what my major is, like, what my
GPA is, what I'm planning on doing with it, just like making sure like I'm
driven in school, but um, and like not to say my dad isn't as religious as
my mom or like, he doesn't care about the Deen as much as my mom is just
that like he himself works at a school in Minneapolis Public Schools, so
like He cares. For sure, like education is what he's geared towards, but
like he also wants me like be a good Muslim like practice and pray and
things like that. But like my mom for sure is active in like Dugsi more
than school, because that's like what she knows most.
Sahra Tobe 12:18
So do you think that your parents involvement differ between like you and
your, like your older siblings and do you think it connects to like how
long they've been in the States?
Salma Ahmed 12:28
Yes. 100%. Like, I really appreciate like my stance in my family because I
know it's so different from my older siblings. Like, out of the eight kids
my mom had, I'm the sixth so I have two younger sisters and then five
older siblings, and out of all of us, just me and my older sister finished
the Quran and that's because of like my mom's opportunity to be so
involved in our, like, Islamic education. So, like 100% I think it differs
because of like, they couldn't worry about putting food on the table,
while also worrying about if you pass your Ashar that week, which is not
to say that like, it was by choice or anything like that, but it was just
like is very difficult like trying to vouch for your livelihood with also
your, like children's education, you know, like things that are more like,
less of like a commodity, you know, like, you know, education is really
important, but that's definitely, you know, a privilege which, you know,
like, not everyone has. So it's, it's very, very difficult. Like, I know,
my parents are much more involved even in the way that I saw them raise my
older siblings, like from young kids, like I've been aware of how they
were raised. And like, I know, I'm raised in a more... I have more leeway,
let's say like then they ever had, like my parents were very firm with
them because like they're more scared of the world of what they didn't
know. And so I think that contributes a lot to like the education I've
been given. Both with Dugsi and with school. Yeah, for sure.
Sahra Tobe 14:06
And then earlier you spoke a little bit about how you didn't feel like you
were like you were busy with both Dugsi and school until you got a little
bit older once you did begin to get a little more busy, what kind of what
were your responsibilities kind of looking like, I know you said you have
two younger sisters and just going to school and Dugsi and how that
differed from maybe some of your classmates that didn't have to go to
school on weekends. As you said earlier, you didn't have a lot of Muslim
friends in school. So as you got older, you had a lot of a lot more
responsibilities and things to deal with how how kind of was your
experience with that?
Salma Ahmed 14:49
So yeah, my Like I said before, yeah, I do have two younger sisters. And
thankfully like I haven't had to be like, extremely responsible for them.
Because our age gap is so small, they're only two years younger than me.
They're twins. So, like, I've had to be like somewhat responsible for them
just like being mature and like being the next one in the house that like
sometimes I would have to like babysit them like, just things like that,
but it was never like, I was never like, held accountable for them. Like
my, some of my older siblings were held accountable for me and them. So I
definitely think that that contributed a lot to why I always felt like
nothing was like so overwhelming because my home responsibilities were
like, really like minimal in comparison to my siblings. So when I looked
at my classmates, who weren't Muslims responsibilities, I just thought
they were extra chillin. Like I was chillin because I didn't have, you
know, like these responsibilities that non immigrant kids don't have any
way. So like, I would just think about it in a way like I'm not even
overwhelmed because I don't have younger siblings to look after. I don't
have bills to pay. You know, like things like that, but I still had to,
like, clean and like make sure everything was okay. But even those
responsibilities were minimal because I had the comparison of so much and
so little. So like, what I had to go to Dugsi and school, like for my own
education for my own well being was like, if anything, I was thankful like
that I only had to worry about my homework for Dugsi and my homework for
school. Like it was it like it definitely gave me like, some perspective
and it made me like more appreciative as a person because because, like, I
know, like, things could be completely different because I've saw them be
completely different.
Sahra Tobe 16:37
And then, so as you move up in your education, like high school and things
like that, did you see your social circles kind of changing in any way?
Salma Ahmed 16:47
Yeah, for sure. Um, so like, I have like Muslim friends just from Dugsi
itself. But um, I, in high school, I actually had to move away from like
my non Muslim friends. Because like, they just like, it didn't go from
like oh 'hanging out' it was like they're kind of drinking and like, doing
activities that I as a Muslim like it was contradicting with like who I
was to the core, which was a Muslim. So they kind of like made the
decision for me really like to make Muslim friends so like, that's when I
made Muslim friends and thankfully, I went to like a well versed high
school, high school, so it wasn't like difficult to like make Muslim
friends and it wasn't the fact that I didn't know other Muslims or like, I
wasn't cool with them. It was just the fact that we just never ended up
being friends. And so Um, so yeah, like, I just kind of like started
making the connections I already had and like furthering them so yeah,
like that's, that's the time when I kind of like realize like my, if you
you are who your friends are. And if your friends like aren't-- I'm a firm
believer of that, of you are your friends are because if someone's
character like completely contradicts your own, then how can you like
stand by and like, let them be that way? Or like, you know, like, kind of
per- make that permissible, you know what I mean? And so, um, so yeah,
like, that's when, like, I realized, like, it's really good for me to have
Muslim friends because, like, that kind of limits the temptation of sin in
my like, specific case, like, I didn't want to ever be tempted to do
something. And like, while Muslims are also sinners, you know, like, at
least like, I wouldn't have felt peer pressured by the people I was
friends with, like, they were doing something and I would say, Oh, I don't
want to and like they wouldn't say why not because they know I'm a Muslim.
You know what I mean? Like, every time I felt like, every time my non
Muslim friends were doing something, I'd say I don't want to they'd say,
Well, why not? And I have to explain my whole faith again, and I'm like,
everyday explaining my faith like a scholar. I didn't have the time.
Sahra Tobe 18:53
Did you, um, So you talked about how that was kind of the driving force
for you to to kind of cultivate a group of Muslim friends. Did you have
any experiences with maybe your Muslim friends looking to engage in, in
the quote unquote, regular teenage activities?
Salma Ahmed 19:08
Yeah, for sure I um, Yeah. Like, you know, like, that's when I really
realized friends come and go. Because like, it kind of gets to a point
where it's like, yeah, okay, like you respect that I don't want to do it.
But like, then it's like, we don't even hang out anymore because you're
doing something I don't want to do. You don't want to do what I'm doing.
Because it's not that these regular activities or whatever, so kind of
just becomes like an ongoing loop of so like, you don't see each other
anymore. And then just naturally, people grow apart based on things like
that. So I'm like, thankfully, I'm like, I've always been like, kind of,
well, like grounded in my own headspace. Like, I've always had a good head
on my shoulders because of my older siblings. Like when you see other
people in your life that you care about, like making mistakes, or like go
through things that you'll probably go through just because it's like the
Circle of Life here, whatever anywhere. You kind of like expect that. So
then like when it comes and happens to you kind of like know how to handle
and you kind of you know how to get through it. So that's what like, why
never felt belittled by people telling me 'Oh, you're not like willing to
do this, you're not willing to do that' like, because I'm really not. And
I know you're gonna ask me if you almost feel like a psychic. So, um, so
yeah, like that's kind of what guided me like really was having older
siblings that went through the same life as me here, like I know it was
probably way more difficult for them because they they were literally
taken from the only life they knew like, I mean, they were all super young
when they left but it was all they were familiar with. And coming to like,
here, which gives you a complete culture shock and like with parents that
have never experienced anything like in the slightest of that way, like
they're just kind of focused on surviving. Like, it's really really hard
to guide so thankfully I was in that position. I just kind of watched it
from hindsight.
Sahra Tobe 21:06
Do you, are you still in close contact with your siblings and how's your
family life like now?
Salma Ahmed 21:12
Um, yeah, so all my siblings are old people. So um, my oldest brother is
35. And yeah, he's married he lives in Minnesota. All my siblings except
for one live in Minnesota. So my oldest brother Yeah, he lives in
Minnesota. He, I'm, were, in like pretty close contact, like not on a day
to day thing. But like, we have pretty good relationship. I ask him for
like life advice. He, he loves school. He's like my dad. He's always
talking about, like, what I want to do, how he's like making connections.
So I have like, a little bit of an easier experience, which like, he's
always been, like, helpful, like with things like that. He's always like,
kind of like couple steps ahead. And so he's always willing to help me
with anything I need. And he's like, always trying to like move mountains
for me. So it's super nice. And then I have another brother, aw this makes
me sad, and then I have another brother who's also married. He's not as
helpful- I'm just kidding. But yeah, I definitely see like the difference
in maturity between my siblings just watching them. But yeah, my other
brother, he's also married, he lives in Minnesota. He works. We have a
pretty good relationship. Like it's not like anything like where like, we
talk on a day to day basis either. But, um, he has like, for sure, like
flaws that, you know, like I kind of have a hard time getting over
sometimes just like in general, like, you know, people aren't, you, you
don't get to sculpt people in your life, how they are like your family's
your family. You don't get to choose them for a reason. But um and then I
have another sister, she's the one who doesn't live here. She lives in New
York. We have an amazing relationship. She's actually like, one of the
closest people I have in my family. She's like, a great person and she
like, honestly, she's like my second mom, like she for sure guided me more
than anybody else like, my brothers like yeah, like they, like I kind of
looked at their experiences but they didn't guide me in any way like, you
know like they're kind of boys will be boys and boys take a longer time to
grow up but um yeah like she's like for sure yeah she's like for sure like
contribute a lot to the kind of person I am today. And like yeah we talked
very frequently especially considering the fact that the only contact we
have is like a phone but she like visits a lot and like I visited like the
place she lives so it's cool. And then I have another brother who's like
he's like still growing up. Like Like I said before boys take way longer
to grow up and girls and what I've seen, especially in immigrant families,
and so like, I haven't like taken anything from him to be completely
honest. Like he's in my like, headspace. He's kind of like, the same age
as me. If not younger than me, even though we have like a seven year age
gap. And then I have a sister like, I'm the closest with her out of all my
siblings. She's four years older than me. She's the one I mentioned before
like that we went to Tahfeed together. But um, she, yeah, like, we're like
very close. Sometimes, like, my other sister makes like jokes like I'm the
older sister in the relationship just because like, in any aspect of my
life, I'm like a realist more than anything, like more than an optimist
more than, like, someone who like uses their imagination alot, whatever. I
like, I see things for what they are and like I don't try to like let
emotions cloud my judgment. And so she's she's like more of an optimist.
So that's why it's funny that like, she's asking me for advice and stuff
even though she's like, ahead of me in life. And then I have those two
twin sisters I was talking about earlier and like, when people say the
youngest and families like are definitely the same and no matter how old
they are, like, I definitely see that especially my own family. Because
like, you know, they're like tested the least, they have like no one else
to look after which, thankfully I didn't have anybody to look after but
they were so young to not see my other siblings grow up that they're kind
of like, still like looking for guidance, which like we all try to give
them as much as we can. But yeah, like all my siblings, like we're in
pretty good contact but there's for sure more I talk to most. Like
especially like the three I live with. I talked to them more frequently
because I see them the most frequently. And my sister in New York, I see
her or I talked to her the most because if not, then we don't have any
contact and you know, boys will be boys.
Sahra Tobe 25:36
So, you spoke a lot about your relationship with your siblings. How is
your relationship with your, with your parents? And do you feel like
there's a tight relationship there as well?
Salma Ahmed 25:47
Yeah, I I for my mom and I, we definitely have a tight knit relationship.
I'd say especially like considering now that I'm older, I can definitely
admire everything she's done for me and I can appreciate it. Which like, I
always have known, like, the place my mom has my life like she's always
been held to high esteem in my head. But the only thing now is the fact
that like, she can, like talk to me about like, the problems she's having
and things like that where I'm like more of an adult. Like, she doesn't
put weight on me or anything but like, it's, you know, like, she makes it
more clear she doesn't like shelter me from things like she used to, which
I appreciate because like, I hate feeling like, babied, especially in
situations where like, I can fully comprehend like I'm a full functioning
adult, you know, but um, like parents don't see that all the time. I mean,
like, even like in immigrant families sometimes they'll treat you like an
adult sometimes they treat you like a child, which it doesn't really make
sense because pick one. Like sometimes my mom will tell me I'm 25,
sometimes she'll tell me I'm 12 but um, even though I'm only 19. But, but
um so ya no, my mom and me, we definitely have a tight knit relationship
like considering everything, she's like, always like been, like I said
before, like vouching for me and like always been like a great resource to
me like in any way she possibly can, she always tries to like move
mountains for me. My dad and me we have like a pretty good relationship
too, like now that I'm like growing up more like I definitely see like the
flaws he has but like he's like still a great person like the older people
are the more they don't change. So like I try not to hold him to to like
much of an expectation either like I don't want like to be the reason that
he's unhappy because I expect him to change but he's been like this for
the fifty-four years he's had kids. So like yeah, we're also pretty
close, like he knows about like, the things that are happening in my life
because I try to like keep him involved. Because I never want him to feel
like I'm like looking at him as just like another parent like second to my
mom when like it ends up being that way anyway because my mom so involved
like, voluntarily and like sometimes I have to put him in the loop. But
um, yeah, like, my dad for sure like tries to be involved in our lives and
like he tries to like, help with what he can like financially and things
like that. So I appreciate that a lot.
Sahra Tobe 28:14
Do you remember your family having any, like special traditions or kind of
a little get together things that they did? Like maybe on holidays or
things like that growing up?
Salma Ahmed 28:24
Yeah. So my family we're like, very, like religious family, like my mom
like, we never like really celebrated birthdays or anything like that,
like because not like, through my parents and my older siblings would
celebrate birthdays with us, because like, they saw other people
celebrated birthdays, so they would try to like, make our transitions like
smooth, you know, like, between, like, the different worlds we come from
or whatever. But um, ya no, every year since I was like a kid. My dad's
sister lives in Minnesota as well. So she would invite us all over for
Thanksgiving. But it wasn't like we were celebrating Thanksgiving, we all
just happen to have the day off. And she would make like Somali food, not
like Turkey. So like, that's the tradition we've always had just because
all her kids were off of work and school. And so were we. And my dad was
off of work, too, because he works at a school. So he's on the same
schedule as us. So it was always really nice. So I would always look
forward to that, because like, if I didn't get to see them often, like
because people's lives got busy, then I would know that we'd see each
other on Thanksgiving
Sahra Tobe 29:29
Do you remember what your parents did for living when you're growing up?
And like, do you remember maybe like,
Salma Ahmed 29:34
what they did for what?
Sahra Tobe 29:36
For a living like,
Salma Ahmed 29:36
oh, for a living? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my mom, she always stayed at home
because she like, for like 18 years. She was raising kids. So she, oh,
yeah, she stayed home like she didn't like I said she didn't really get
much of an education like she didn't get an education at all in America
besides like, some ELL classes she took for a couple of years when I was
younger and then she was like, always worried about like us not speaking
our native tongue. So we would always speak Somali in the house. And that
was like the main reason she stayed at home because she didn't want us to
lose our language. Because she was afraid that if she, if she worked, or
if she like, went to school and stuff, thankfully, like my dad, like,
worked a stable enough job where we didn't have to, like depend on the two
incomes. But um, yeah, she was, she was always worried about she was
always worried about us and losing our native tongue. And if we talked
only amongst each other, we would talk in English, because that's what we
spoke at school. And so like, it's funny because even though I grew up in
America, like was born and raised here. When I went to school I only spoke
Somali because I wasn't allowed to speak English at home. And that was
like up to until like, the age of like, 15 we weren't allowed to speak
English. And so, my dad though he always worked at an elementary school of
like, as far as like, I can remember, he worked another job before I was
born, but I can't remember what it was. But I remember he, he's always
been like the liaison for like, Somali students, but he also like he's
really really good at math. And that's always been like his main strength
so he also helps kids struggling with math. So he's like kinda like a math
teacher for elementary kids. So it's like nice that's why I was like
always accelerated. And I'd be like math 90, reading 40. I didn't know
English but I knew math. But um, yeah, so yeah, those were the main things
that they did for a living. It's kind of funny now to say my mom's a stay
at home mom cause, like, she stays at home for herself now.
Sahra Tobe 31:42
So going off of you speaking about like wanting to keep your language and
how that was a big part of your upbringing. I know like your, your mother,
that was a point of like, a point of importance for her there. Did you
ever feel like growing up like you were juggling your identity as a Somali
Amerian, did you ever feel at times that maybe one was slipping?
Salma Ahmed 32:01
Yeah, I for sure hated speaking Somali. Yeah, no, I like I was ashamed
because it sounds like sounds so ugly. And when my mom like we would be in
stores and me and my siblings talking English my mom would say 'no like
you see people speaking Spanish, you see, you see like all these people
speak in their native tongues and you guys are having them understand your
conversations like, do you see how stupid you look?' And she was not lying
because like people were really all up in our business when we spoke
another language so now like I'm for sure thankful because I know like,
I'm very fluent in Somali now where like, a lot of my peers aren't, even
my younger sisters. Like they still kind of struggle with Somali and they
kind of like pronounce words wrong, just like grammar errors but um, yeah,
like I'm very, very thankful now because, like it's a strength to be
bilingual and not a weakness, but I always found it to be a weakness. But
um, that's like, part of the reason I struggled was because like Like I
said before, like kids growing up would tell you, like, oh, you're not
even from here obviously. And I'd be like, why do we speak another
language, if we're American? Like it did not click for me, I'm like, What?
Is this just me? But um like, also like part of my tradition like, I,
like, traditions, I should say, like, I would hide from my kids at school
and stuff just because I didn't want to be different, so bad, because
like, they made it be something so negative, but like Now, obviously, like
with life experience, wisdom, and all that jazz, you realize that like
being the carbon carbon copy doesn't like get you anywhere, like, even
when you're applying for jobs, they want something different. So and they
want someone who speaks another language, someone who can like reach
multiple communities. Whereas like, if you only speak English, and you all
look the same, then what's the, what makes you yourself what makes you an
individual?
Sahra Tobe 33:49
So that, so you spoke a little bit about your, your, your identities as a
Somali and then as an American, how did your identity as Somali and Muslim
translate in your life? How did they maybe coincide or contradict?
Salma Ahmed 34:04
Yeah, I feel like for sure they always like aligned for me. Just because
like, I've never met a Somali that wasn't Muslim. I've always been like,
able to at least like if I didn't have like this I would at least have
like Somali people, you know what I mean? So I, I always like grew up with
even like at Dugsi, like I didn't go to Dugsi or our local Masjid, they're
all Somali, like, things like that. I always feel like those two
identities kind of went hand in hand for me like, sometimes when like, my,
like, culture would contradict my like, oh, like, Somali dance, Somali
music like that would contradict my religion. I'd be like, kind of
confused, like, when we were younger, my mom would play like Somali music.
And I would like learn in Dugsi that music was haram. And I'd be like, so
Somali music isn't haram. Because like, I'm like, there's no way my moms
playing music and this was like, I'm thinking like parents have no flaws
at this age. So I'm like, I know my mom would have played music if it was
not haram. Yeah. So I said, hmm, I put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and I
realized moms can be sinners too. But now it's funny because I brought
that up to my mom the other day and she's like 'I was learning too', it's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 35:22
So, it sounds like your parents definitely played a large part in your
upbringing. Did you know your grandparents, or great grandparents?
Salma Ahmed 35:30
No, actually, I've never met any of my grandparents. My dad's parents, so
his mom died when he was four years old, and then his dad died when he was
18. And then so my mom didn't even meet my dad's parents, but my mom's mom
died in 2013, like September 2013. And then my mom's dad died in 2016
actually, when both my parents were gone in England for my brother's
wedding, so like, we never really got to grieve my grandpa's death,
because like, my mom was gone. So yes, like, I never got to meet them. So
like now like when I like see people like having like, relationships with
like their grandparents or like, it's like, either like when they have
relationships with their grandparents I'm like, so happy for them because
I'm like, wow, like, that's such an amazing thing to be able to experience
like, I know, like some people like they consider their grandparents like
more of like a contribution to their life like than their parents. So it's
like super interesting to see. But like also like, the same thing I'm
like, when people don't appreciate their grandparents, I get upset because
I'm like, please appreciate them. Like they're only here for a certain
amount of time, just like the rest of us, but they're also here for such a
short amount of time, so it's like, yeah, I have like I have those
emotions about that.
Sahra Tobe 36:48
So did you, I know we spoke a little earlier about your father's sister
that would invite you guys over during like Thanksgiving time. Do ou guys
have any like other cousins or other extended families, you guys, like
regularly got together with and how did that, how did that kind of play
out in your life like growing up?
Salma Ahmed 37:11
Yeah, so um, my father's sister she has a lot of kids, most of our kids
are like, a lot older than me. Her youngest son is actually like 31 he's
as old as my sister that lives in New York and then her oldest son is like
45 I want to say like they have their age gaps aren't like insane, but
like in comparison to us, like they're a lot older than us. So um, so
yeah, they it was actually my nieces and nephews, my cousin's kids like in
my culture, consider my nieces and nephews because like your cousins are
like your siblings in comparison instead of like, great cousin, whatever
second cousin and all that but um, so yeah, we would all get together
because all of her kids except for her oldest live inMinnesota. So it was
more like I was getting together with like my aunts and their kids instead
of like my cousins and their kids because, you know, like, my cousins are
so much older than me, I saw them as like parent figures. And so it'd be
super nice to see all of them because all their kids are like, around my
age and around the twins age. So they would come over too because they're
all off of school. But most of my like my dad's family, live like around
the world. Like, he has some family in Toronto, like my dad has like
mostly brothers, except for his one, he only has one sister and then the
rest are brothers. So he has brothers in Toronto, and then Saudi Arabia
and like Abu Dhabi and United Arab Emirates, and then also a brother in
Birmingham. So like, we don't get to see them frequently but like they
visited us and like I'm like connected with all my like cousins on like
social media and like sometimes we talk but it's just like, like knowing
like they exist is like super nice like having cousins around your age,
especially girl cousins, super nice and so. But my mom's side of the
family she um, she comes from, she doesn't come from a big family. My
grandpa actually like he was married twice. So his second wife has like
younger kids than my mom. So there's like a lot of them like, they all
live in Somalia. And one of my mom's older sister's daughter actually
lives in Sweden. So my mom is like, trying to go to Sweden now. It's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 39:34
So, circling back to your experience in school, I know you stated earlier
that you preferred math over reading etc. What else can you recall about
like how, how school was for you? Especially like having the guidance of
your older siblings and kind having already that community from Dugsi
maybe that translated over and what also are you up to now?
Salma Ahmed 40:00
Yeah, so school is like, I always enjoyed it. So but my favorite was
middle school because like, I was always like super like soft spoken like
super like insecure about my identity. But like middle schools when I
really realized like I was happy like with who I was like, where I came
from things like that, which thankfully it happens sooner rather than
later. I know for a lot of people are not as thankful, I mean, they're not
as comfortable. Yeah, like around that age. Like that's what I feel like
insecurities kind of grow. You know what I mean? So I was like, Luck that
mine were kind of chilling out at that age. But so yeah, so I school was
always I don't want to say a breeze. But it was always like something. It
was like nonchalant, I was nonchalant about it. Like, I did it. I wasn't
like completely invested. Like also I was good at it. So I didn't hate it.
You know, like, like I said before, I'm kind of egotistical, I only like
what I'm good at, but um yeah like that's when, that's like, why I liked
it. Like, in high school, I was in the National Honor Society. So and
like, none of my family members were in that, so I was really like happy,
like, I love like when my family like see something like and they're happy
for me because it's like something that they're unfamiliar with. Like I
know like a lot of times like when I'm good at something my other siblings
good at it like my parents like they're like oh, okay, like that's a
regular thing like it's the norm for us, you know? So I liked high school
a lot because I was kind of like, more well sculpted in like who I was.
And like, I was good at school, I was taking PSEO classes. And I just felt
like so like in control of my life. Like for the first time I was like the
driver. And I knew like where I was going, I wasn't using GPS. And yeah,
like now I'm in college and I'm kind of using GPS again. So, like, right
now I study computer science. And like, I don't know, like, that decision
was kind of like erratic, I don't know, like, I don't completely enjoy it,
I first started because of like, the problem solving aspects and like, you
know, like, it's really like exhilarating when you're good at or like when
you solve a problem that you see on your own, like, you don't need help.
Like, it's, it's just like, it's a really good feeling. But I'm now like
I'm realizing like, there's not much like, there's not much to it, like
you code and then you move on, like, I and I don't like what my whole life
to be just like, coding, you know. And like, I feel like in any aspect of
any career, like or any career that I intend to go into. You don't like,
you don't want to like just code. You know what I mean? It's just, it's
not like, it doesn't sit right with me thinking like I'm working towards.
I'm just coding working towards a job where i'll just code. Like that
doesn't sound fulfilling to me at all, which I'm not necessarily like
going to school to like become fulfilled by a job, but it would be nice to
not hate myself. So, yes, and right now I'm like looking into other
majors, possibly Management Information Systems because it kind of like
uses, like the coding that I already know with also, like, management
aspects and like analyzation and like critical thinking where like, I'll
actually be able to use the frontal lobe. I would not use it if I was just
coding.
Sahra Tobe 43:25
So um, going a little bit, going a little bit more into your experience in
college so far. You are a sophomore, correct?
Salma Ahmed
Yes.
43:31
Sahra Tobe 43:32
So do you have you maybe felt like some of the peer pressure from maybe
High School has been maybe like presenting itself in college as well maybe
just like in other forums? Or like, how do you feel your social life is
now?
Salma Ahmed 43:49
I feel like my social life now is like, fairly well, like, I haven't had
like, issues with like friendships and things like since I was in high
school, so like, I'm thankful one I have like, been able to, like, make
good friends in school, but like, also have like good friends outside of
school. So it's like a nice balance of the two and like, yeah like,
socially like, I feel fine. However, there's like always like the, the
'teenage activities', like people aren't teenagers anymore, but um the
activities of like of students or whatever that like linger. And so
actually, I find that in college, they applaud you for not partaking in
their activities, and like they almost like give you like that, 'Oh,
you're so innocent, don't do this kind of act', which is almost worse than
the peer pressure I experienced in high school because like, they think
you don't do stuff because you're naive instead of like, wise, you know, I
mean, so like it really like it's just kind of like an ongoing loop of
what? But, but um, yes, like, I like I definitely come across people like
doing things that I personally don't do or won't do or will never do. So.
So it's like, it's definitely interesting to see like, the different
reactions you get, though, because like, people have been like offering
out the same things for the past five, six years. It's just now that they
offer it in different tones and different reactions when you say no or so
it's funny. It's funny. Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 45:18
Do you do feel like yourself becoming stronger and more grounded in your
identities the more that you experience kind of these invitations or is it
the other way?
Salma Ahmed 45:29
Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of do kind of like, I'm still the same
because I find that like people when like they, when they applaud you for
not doing something they're just insecure. Like, they themselves don't
know why they're doing what they're doing, or it's like they themselves
fed into peer pressure. So they're kind of just like, taken aback when you
like, think for yourself because they didn't do that. So it's definitely
interesting to see that like, I'm this way because I wanna be this way,
but you're that way because your friend said so or like, it doesn't really
make sense to me because I know like some people like it takes longer for
them to digest things than others or like some people weren't offered
these things like they went to Islamic school or whatever, you know, like,
whatever walk of life you're from. However, like, if you're gonna think
for yourself, you'll start thinking for yourself now because like, this is
like, your formative adult years. So I don't really like I don't really
know. And I don't really feel like as bad as I do for people now when they
like kind of get themselves in situations as they did in high school.
Because now you've like, now you've like seen things, you know what I
mean? Like now you like this is what you chosen. So like, yeah, like I
feel more strong willed than I did before because of that type of stuff.
Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 46:50
So now moving forward, where, where do you see yourself? In the next- I
know this question sucks, I hate myself for asking you but I'm going ask
you anyway
Salma Ahmed
Okay
47:01
Sahra Tobe 47:01
and this is in terms of like your school, in terms of maybe who you are as
a person, in terms of maybe your relationships with people, different
people in your life things like that. But where do you see yourself
ideally? Maybe in the next two, three years, three years?
Salma Ahmed 47:18
Oh, okay so only two I thought you were gonna say five or 10 I don't know.
Um, yeah, next two, three years. Yeah, hopefully like see myself graduated
with a degree hopefully I see myself out of school not doing homework. But
yeah, like with a stable job hopefully like if it's two years from now
then I won't have graduated yet. Like hopefully with at least a job offer.
I hope like I'm really strong in my Iman, like more than I am now. I hope
like I'm like more certain of myself like I feel like I'm like fairly
confident now. Like there's always room for improvement in any aspect of a
person. So yeah, like I definitely hope to be like more stable I hope to
be driving my own car again like I was in high school. But um yeah, no I
and I hope like I'm learning something that I care about. And like I'm I'm
confident in what I'm learning. So yeah.
Sahra Tobe 48:13
Do you have anything else you want to add, any closing remarks?
Salma Ahmed 48:19
no no closing remarks but I will tell you like, my like situation of like,
my like immigrant story, my Muslim immigrant story, Muslim in Minnesota
story is like, I know like very different in comparison to other people
like the generation now growing up like my younger sisters like years of
schooling is like completely different than mine. Even if they are in
like, similar shoes as me like with older siblings, and like couple of
younger siblings, like I definitely say like this is it's a very specific
situational story. So I think it's interesting what this is doing what you
guys are doing.
Sahra Tobe 48:59
Thank you so much for joining me
Salma Ahmed 49:01
You're welcome. This was fun. Thanks for having me. It was an honor,
pleasure.
Sahra Tobe 49:08
Thanks so much for listening, bye-bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing ... Show more
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in
this oral history project. I want to remind you that this may be published as part of the Oral
History Archives project at Augsburg University. And I need your permission to record this
conversation. So, do you agree to be, for this conversation to be recorded?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:46
Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:47
Okay. So why don't you introduce yourself and just say, when and where were you born? And
whatever else you want to share about yourself?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:55
Okay, thank you, Barbara, for the opportunity to be here and share with you. My name is
Nasmath Amegankpoe, originally from Republic of Benin in West Africa. Born and raised in
Benin, as a Muslim. Since 2001, where I migrated here to US following my husband. So,
currently live in Minnesota, and that where I've lived since 2001 with two kids, two young adults
(laughs). Yes, and I'm a registered nurse by background.
Barbara Sabino Pina 1:37
Um, why don't we talk a little bit about since you mentioned your family, um, why don't you
introduce a little bit about your family? Like, maybe your parents? You have any partner, or your
children?
Nasmath Aldrin 1:54
Yes, absolutely. I was born in Benin. And my mom actually is the elementary school teacher. My
dad was an accountant. He's passed away now since 95. And so I just grew up in, you know, in
a Muslim family, Muslim environment, Muslim culture. And married actually, right as I was
moving to US, and so been living here since 2001 with my husband and my two kids.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:30
Beautiful. Um, so you mentioned that you were born in Benin, or the Republic of Benin, long
time ago. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your childhood, like, where do
you... like the neighborhood, you lived in? How did the people look like around you? What type
of culture do you experience growing up? And things like that?
Nasmath Aldrin 2:57
Absolutely. Growing up was a lot of fun, really different from US, I have to say. Just in the fact
that we went to school, of course, it's a topical country. We went to school in the morning from
eight to twelve. And then we came back home, we walk pretty much all the distances, didn't
have to ride a car. Well, you know how to take that bus. My dad does have a chauffeur-driven
car, but some-sometimes when he's, you know, he wants to, you know, just wanted to play this a
little bit, they will drive us to school, but otherwise, it was walking everywhere. And which, which
was a good thing, really. And, you know, the places also was very nice around the house, you
know, family were over, pretty much every day, the weekend. There was always something in
the neighborhood, we were just, you know, it was a, the neighborhood itself was a big, I will say
big family, you know, big family member or we could be in anybodies house, you know, and
without any worries. And any, anybody in the neighborhood or, you know, parent, we're
considered our parent. So you get in trouble anyway (laughs). It follows you (laughs), you can't
really (laughs), you can't really get away with anything, but, you know, it was a lot of fun, you
know, play and of course, we had to be at home for our daily prayers, you know, so, the school
schedule was perfect, and at the same time, you know, on weekends, we, we went to our
Islamic school to learn about our faith. And, and so, you know, mainly. But very fun, a lot of fun.
A lot of activities just between each other. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 5:05
Awesome. That sounds like a lot of fun. Um, I'm wondering, so you were mentioned, you
mentioned a little bit about your neighborhood and a little bit about, like, how you will gather with
your family all together. Um, so I'm wondering since you said that you move you now move into
United States, but you were born in Benin. Why did you come to America? Or how did that
process go? Was it your parents who brought you here? Was it you came here for yourself? A
little bit of the process of the immigration process?
Nasmath Aldrin 5:42
Yeah. Actually, in college, in my first year in college is when I met my husband, my, you know,
current husband. And so we met and I came here actually following him. I was still finishing my
school, when he moved to US. So about two years before me, he moved to us, following the it's
called "diversity visa". And so he came in, it was just a natural thing to follow Him. When I was
done with my bachelor.
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:21
Awesome, do you know, did your husband ever told you like, why the United States? Was it like
an opportunity he had here? Or? Like, basically, why specifically, the United States out of all the
countries?
Nasmath Aldrin 6:40
Yeah, good. Actually, it was a time where Bill Clinton, you know, was the President of the United
States. And he started a program called "diversity visa". So basically, they extend to different
countries around the world. Certain amount of visa is also called "lottery visa". And that anyone
who, you know, played that year, you know, there was a certain amount that was allocated, and
my husband happened to play that year. And he was a chemical engineer, he graduated and
was just had just started working. And somebody talked to him about the lottery visa. And so he
really liked it, because he had always wanted to go abroad, you know, and he wanted better
things for the family. He wanted to go abroad. And so when that opportunity came, he played,
you know, this lottery visa, and he won, you know, he was one of those people that were picked
for that year to get that visa. And so that's how he came here. And of course, naturally, when I...
I wanted to stay back and finish my degree. And so I followed him as soon as I was done.
Barbara Sabino Pina 8:05
Awesome. And go, how was that process? If you don't mind me asking, what...after he came
here was he the one who requested you to come? and How long did all that process take?
Nasmath Aldrin 8:20
Yeah, it was um... Yes, he requested me to come. Of course, he has sent like an invite to, you
know, for me to come and how long it take, I think he will know better (laughs). I think he started,
I want to say he started the process right before I graduated the year, right before I graduated in
the same year, that was in 2... in 1999. In 1999, and so it probably took about I'm gonna say
about maybe about a couple of months to a year. And so and so he invited me and then I, you
know, I came in, I came and joined him, you know, for the first few um... I want to say for the first
two years, clearly, I want to stay home, stay at home mom, I did not work. And, you know, in
those same years, you know, I had about three to four years, I had my two kids and so I stayed
home to raise them till they were a year and a half and just about a year. And after that is when I
actually we actually decided for me to walk outside of the house. And in then, you know, that's
how my career, you know, my working career started in us and I worked initially as a nursing
assistant that I was, you know, trying to get my degree converted here and that took some
classes, and then I was able to, to go for my life, hence the registered nurse here in US.
Barbara Sabino Pina 10:09
So where did you go and leave when you arrived, in the United States?
Nasmath Aldrin 10:14
I came straight to Minnesota. He was in Minnesota, yes, he was living in Minnesota at the time,
we lived in Roseville. And, you know, at the end of 2001, after our daughter was born, we
moved into a two-bedroom apartment in North temple. And, you know, about two years after
that, close to me having my second child is when we moved to a house that my husband
purchased at the time in White bear. And that's where, you know, both kids go went to
elementary school, middle school, and it's in their high school that we actually moved to Maple
Grove. And currently, we live in Brooklyn Park, and they are both in college.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:14
And that's awesome. That is really awesome to hear. Why Minnesota? Do you know why your
husband came specifically to Minnesota? And why you both stayed so long?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:26
(Laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:26
And not moving to any other state?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:29
That's a good question. He actually came, he came in stayed with a friend in Alexandria,
Virginia. And, you know, after he stayed there for a few months, he really wanted to be able to,
you know, to continue his education. And he also saw that the job, there was a big... the job
markets there. He was working in a in restaurants, you know, just the little job, you know, to, to
be able to survive. And he realized that it was kind of competitive, but not was not, you know,
was not, I will say what, was not really the job that he wanted to do, really, he really wanted to
pursue his education. And so and it was not paying that well, either. So at some point, he
decided he needed to separate and get his own place. And somebody actually, at the time, told
him that Minnesota was a good place to get a good job and to get a better paying job, and
where he could actually continue his education. And that's how he moved to Minnesota. So at
the time, when I came, he was already in Minnesota. And so I, you know, I just stayed there. Of
course, it was a big shock on the... I came in January, the weather was really cold, it was harsh.
So you know, I did not hesitate when he was like, "you want to just stay home for a few years?".
I'm was like, "absolutely!. I don't want to go out in this weather". That's for sure. And so, you
know, and so that's, that's how I that's how we stayed in Minnesota. And we kind of you know,
as every year, we will be like, you know, we need to move to a warmer state. But then we were
thinking about a good place for the kids education. And we realized Minnesota was one of the
states that offered a good education program for the kids. I think that was the main reason why
even though the weather was harsh, and we we felt like we should move each time we thought
about the kid and just stay back. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:55
So coming back a little bit a few minutes ago, when you mentioned about your career. You
mentioned that eventually, you started coming here to didn't work at the beginning. And then just
started to do like following certain steps in order to learn English and all these other things. And
eventually, you end up in the career that you are at the moment. Um, I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit about like, the first position that you got, or the first job that you got here in
the United States, and how that eventually got you to the place that you are at the moment.
Nasmath Aldrin 14:25
Okay, okay. Um, you know, actually, when I came in 2001, in September, and September 11
happened, right. And so, when I was going to start working, I was wondering, you know, which
fields will I go in that will not, you know, impact my, you know, where I will not be put down or
look down at all, you know, and because, you know, there was a lot of anxiety at the time, you
know, considering I was of Muslim faith. And so being that I studied nursing back home, we both
thought, you know, why don't you stay in healthcare. And, you know, in health care, you just go,
you will care for people, people will very quickly see to your heart and see that, you know, you
are just there to help them. And so I started here as a nursing assistant. And I worked, the first
place I worked, it's called "Volunteers of America". It's a nursing home, ah, in Maple, Maple
Woods. And so I started working there at the time as an nurse assistant, of course, and I worked
there for just a few months, at some point, I just did not like the culture. So I moved from that
company, and I went from there to another company called "Serenity". And that was in White
bear, and it was closer to our house actually. So that way, I stayed, you know, while I took some
classes at Kaplan for my nursing, and eventually, you know, got my license to work as a nurse.
And when I got my license to work as a nurse, actually, I was sponsored by another company, to
the Presbyterian homes, Presbyterian homes and services, and this is a company that sponsor
nurses actually from abroad. So my husband got the, you know, to know about them, and to one
of his colleagues at work. And so, through that company, you know, they really helped me to
even all the classes that I got the kind of guide me to, to get, you know, my nursing degree here,
and so, and, of course, I left serenity that that's what the last place I worked at an Nursing
assistance. And so, I went, I started my career as a nurse with Presbyterian homes. And one
day, for a few years, I, I went from there at some point, as you know, I went into management, I
went from being a floor nurse into, you know, clinical manager, and then just the stress of you
know, walk and managing my kids with you know, going up in all I decided, you know, I needed
to go back and work as the as a floor nurse. And so, you know, I went back you know, to this
simply serenity where I had previously worked as a nursing assistant because I like the culture
there. And so, I worked there as a nurse again as the flow nurse for a few years you know, just
managing with my kids age and different activities that they had. And of course, you know, after
a few years, I go into leadership there as well (laughs). And you know, started managing the
flow nurses then I went in managing for the bed Transitional Care Unit and in the year you know,
after a while, you know, I got tired again about management and I went into homecare. So in
homecare, I worked mainly with Fairview, Fairview services, and then you know, and my kids
now, back to college, I decided to tone it down. And I work currently as the, as an admission of...
director of admission at Presbyterian homes. It's only 10 minutes away from home for me, which
is really convenient. And the kids are not here anyway, they are all you know, in college and so
that's good one. I like my schedule of you know, Monday through Friday and having my
weekends that allow me to travel away and travel, you know, of course one being visited my
kids but also for business. Because you know, in between them my husband and I decided we
needed... we needed to supplement our income, we needed to diversify our assets. And so we
went into business, which has been, I will say, tremendous, you know, we have provided me the
tremendous growth, personal growth. And I believe, you know, that also contributed to the
growth in leadership that I experienced throughout my career. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:29
Wow, that sounds like a long journey that guided you to be more happy, like in a happier spot for
sure. Um, so you talked about, well we've been talking about many things. But I was, I'm
wondering, since you came to this country, I can hear that you were surrounded by many people
that helped you, in many support that you got it, but I'm pretty sure you also experienced many
challenges, and many obstacles, to also get to the place you are. So I would like to know, if you
could share a little bit about Who were those people that helped you? Like, uplift you to the
place that you are? Or what were those events that help you to where you are? And what were
those challenges that you had to face in order to get to the place that you are right now.
Nasmath Aldrin 21:26
Thank you, thank you. Actually, you know, I... This is how I came to see challenges, right?.
Challenges, I see them as an opportunity to grow. Okay, and I will say, my growth started from
being a floor nurse. One of the challenges I faced initially at work was the language. Not too
much the language but the accent, right, I knew I had an accent (laughs), there was no
discussing that, but a few of the challenges were, you know, where it was kind of thrown at my
face, you know, that... you know, either I mean, I can see where, you know, somebody may not
hear me, or may not understand me, right? by the way, but I was very, very aware of that. And I
actually, you know, will be the first to tell people I know, I have an accent. So and, you know,
being a nurse at many times, I have to educate my patients. So I will always take the time to be
slow. But also repeat myself, I will ask them, you know, to ask me because I will repeat myself,
as many times needed for them to understand me. Because that was very important for the
care, right? but that many occasions, you know, I really felt that, you know, either because of,
you know, their own issues that they had, you know, that's really how I take it because I came
across so many nice people, so many people who Oh, wow, "you speak so many languages" or
"you also speak...?" or "how many languages you speak? "and "you just come to US and you're
able to, you know, converse?", I'm like, Yeah, so I came across people like that, but I also came
across, you know, many people who, but only made me strive to get better at my you know, at
my communication, I will say, so, any challenge, that's why I only consider any challenge being
an opportunity to grow, okay?. Of course, you know, Presbyterian homes and services was you
know, as a company helped me initially to help me with you know, ESL helped me actually with
my class, my courses with Kaplan, Kaplan University and getting my nursing. So, um, so, there
were, you know, first was really tremendous in, in me, you know, going back to my nursing
career in this country. And the other day, I will say, I will attributes you know, a lot of my growth
also to the fact that I was not afraid to work hard. Not at all. And I was not afraid to, you know, to
really share with people my heart, part my heart in anything that I did. One thing that I learned
from my dad, you know, I learned from my dad and also one of my dear Professor at all nursing
school in Benin was anything that you decide to do, do it right! You do it once do it Right. Right?,
and, you know, don't give opportunity to be questioned. And so I value that a lot. And that was
one of the things that helped me. I, I, you know, I, I always give, I always put my best in anything
that I was doing. And I believe initially, that's what allowed me to go from a flow nurse quickly to
just grow in leadership. And the other thing that I will attribute my growth, my personal growt to
actually is the environment, you know, that I came at that I came through with the business
opportunity that my husband and I started, right and so, we... the business actually came as a
package along with a coaching mentorship program that, the name is BWW stands for bridge
worldwide. And so Britt worldwide was just a group of entrepreneurs, right who were committed
to helping people grow, personally. And the goal in our business is kind of related to the growth
in our personal growth. And so I fell in love with reading personal growth book, right? As I was
building my business, and, you know, in the opportunity, I had to associate with like-minded
people, you know, with people who are really upwardly mobile, and, you know, going after a
goal in life, and that, that was really unique, you know, that was unique, and I believe that
shaped, I believe that that shaped who I am today.
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:59
Yeah, that is really, really beautiful way to see challenges, I really like the way you explain them,
and how you were also to use them as a way to kind of grow and see them, as you said, an
opportunity. Um, I think all of these things are also kind of related to, you know, our beliefs, and
mindset, and all these systems. So I want to ask you, what do you think? Or what, what is your
definition for faith? Like, what does faith mean for you? And if it has changed over the years,
and if so, has it changed, because like, when you moved to United States?was your, were your
previous experiences, from your job?, in your marriage?, with your children? have they also
helped shape the way you see faith, and religion? Um, and yeah, just talk what it means for you.
Nasmath Aldrin 28:05
Thank you, thank you. Um, you know, of course, you know, I go, I grew up, knowing that there
was one God, that we were all, you know, that we were all, who created us all. And that is
anything that would be, right? believing in that God, even though he, we cannot see Him, we
cannot touch him. Okay, and so that, that, that really fit to me, is believing that in anything that
I'm doing, that there is a higher power, you know, that is actually guiding my step. And knowing
that, you know, I can go back, I can go back to him at any time, why that you will guide me, and
that any challenges that come also are could be a test of my faith, but or could be on, like I said,
an opportunity for me to grow even at the test for my faith, it is also an opportunity for me to
grow, but being able to see that, right? and then just, you know, take it that way and find you
know, find out from people who are aware, you know, I want to be, right? and taking guidance,
right from them and in reading a lot, reading a lot, you know, has helped me grow my faith as a
person. Yes, I had the faith but the challenges made me do that fit much stronger, right?, every
opportunity of anxiety of scarcity. You know, kind of reminded me Hey, you know what? in up
and low, right? there is no challenge tha\ he could put in front of me that he does not already
have the solution for. But that solution will only come in trusting him. Right that I was, I was, you
know, I was in good hands, and that the answer will come in in the right time. And just keep
moving forward and doing and choosing to do the right thing. Yeah. Really the belief in that one
thing? Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:22
absolutely. Yes. Kind of, continue talking about faith? And like, what do you believe? In all these
belief systems that you have? What do you think it means for you to be an immigrant? Who is
also African And who is also Muslim living in the United States? And how has your faith helped
you? Like, through... all this transitioning that you went from your native country, to a foreign
country that you have lived for multiple years? Now?
Nasmath Aldrin 31:17
I believe, of course, United States is the greatest states, I believe, right? In the world, I mean, in
the world, right. There is, you know, we can um, we can say all, you know, we can complain, we
can do, we can say so many things, right?. But it still remains that great country, it still remains
that country where that freedom of thinking, that freedom of enterprise, that free enterprise is,
and that's one thing that I appreciate a lot about United States. Now, of course, you know,
whether it's US or whether it's anywhere else, ignorance, I believe, is one of the main reasons
for, you know, for, you know, thinking Ill about one fit one region versus the other. I mean, God is
God, right, there is no other we call we call it Allah, right. And I believe we believe in, in God, we
believe in His messengers, while the prophet we believe in all of them. We believe in that one
day where we will all get called back to him, we believe in His angel, and then knowing all that,
you know, really strengthened my faith. It strengthened me, you know, knowing that, you know,
whatever somebody else may think, of me does not define me. Right? And knowing and you
know, trusting, in his hand of protection over me and my family, and trusting in his, you know, in
his guidance, and just moving forward, you know, and without too much baggage without too
much anxiety. Right. And so, that's really what I believe in, and my faith has helped me a lot to
stay grounded. You know, and, and, you know, it has helped me to raise my kids as well. And
helping them understand, you know, many things that, you know what?, usually, it's the
ignorance that acts, you know, ah, you know, the ignorance that acts selfishly, and then most of
the time, it's just because somebody has their own issues, you know, that can be transmitted
that can be portrayed in an ill way, right?,in a yes, in a hurtful way, or things like that. But no
human being a human being we all, we all will answer to him one day. And yeah, yeah, the US
has been a great country for us.
Barbara Sabino Pina
So good to hear. Um, so how does your identity this kind of has, you cannot cover a little bit
about this in the previous question, but I want to rephrase it a little differently. So how does your
identity as an immigrant African Muslim woman has shaped the way you see the world and the
way you behave and the basically who you are as a person?
Nasmath Aldrin
That's a That's a great question. I will say, you know, coming from a country where we really
believe in togetherness, right, we really believe so much in helping each other. I mean, even
though, you know, we don't have a lot, but we really believe in, you know, that togetherness,
that, you know, helping each other. And, you know, that just brings strength to all of us, right?.
And so that has helped me, of course, come in here and not having, you know, immediate
family, I didn't really have, I didn't really have much fun, right? There was that... there was, you
know, a little bit of preconceived ideas, you know, what is this person gonna think of me, and
what is that person, so I didn't really make a friend by the way, but, you know, after I started
walking, you know, and I will say, with the improvements in my English, it helped my self-image
as well, right?, and... of course, with the, the environments that I had a chance to be part of will
BWW, it helped me a lot to raise my self-image. And as my self-image raised, I realized that we
really are all just the same. We all just yearn for the same thing in life, we all want peace of
mind, right? We want great health, we want you know, they are just those basic things that we
all want. Right? And...but the environment, you know, that we grew up in, may make us have
some preconceived ideas about one person or the other, or one religion or the other and things
like that. But it's, I will say, you know, that togetherness helped me when I, when I came across
this business opportunity. And when I had the opportunity to meet on, you know, this team of
entrepreneurs in this environment, I just felt home, I really felt home. And I was like, you know, I
don't have to be afraid here. You know, nobody's judging me. You know, nobody's judging me
for who I am, you know, it's just me, and we are all here, together, learning from each other
growing together, you know, as a person, that's what I will say, that was huge... in umm huge
contributing in, you know, what shaped me and, and, of course, I found a game that I found
here, that family, family-like, atmosphere, even though we are all from different places of the
world, and, and things like that I found back here, you know, in this environment, and that
helped me a lot. And, you know, and then I also realized that there was really nothing to be
afraid of, you know, that, wherever I am, I could really be freely, you know, speak my mind. And,
of course, knowing that, you know, that freedom that we all have my freedom stop, when
I'm...where at that place, where I try to infringe on somebody else's freedom. Right, and so, but
it has helped, it has helped me that, you know, that togetherness, that spirit of, you know,
helping each other, you know, coming here, in the fit growing, you know, in an environment
where, you know, those values were, were very key, they kind of define this helped me a lot
here to just trust that in any way God brought me here for a reason. And so, you know, I will just
follow whatever path he has for me. And in the end, it will all be good. Yeah, I hope that
answered (laughs).
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, it did. Absolutely. It actually did touch a little bit about misconceptions. And you said a little
bit about how people can have ideas about certain people or certain religions. So I'm wondering
if you could elaborate a little bit more on like what are, a few misconceptions that people have,
or you believe people have about Muslims. And I'm like, what, if you would like to share a little
bit of how have you experienced those yourself? And how that has helped you to like, you
mentioned this a little bit about it, but like how this has helped you do see other religions and
yourself even more stronger or more open as well.
Nasmath Aldrin
Yeah, well, misconception I will say, you know, I'm I know that one of the big contributing factor
to this misconception also, I will say, when it comes to my religion, you know, being a Muslim
came from after that of September 11. Okay, I just came here to US, right?, I came in January,
and then September 11 happened. And then initially, you know, I could not, I mean, it's hard to
hide that you're Muslim (laughs). But, you know, it's like many people, I, you know, I saw that,
you know, they saw Muslim as, you know, terrorist, and, you know, things like that, of course,
initially, it was hard and actually raising my kids, you know, how do you sit them down and
explain to them, this is not what, this is not really, what...what being a Muslim is, right?. These
are people who choose, you know, who have their own agenda, really has nothing to do with the
religion. And these are just people who have their own agenda. And under the name of being
Muslim, you know, they fight to just, you know, do bad things, why they fight to just, but that has
nothing to do with religion, Islam is a unifying religion, you can see it even in how we stand in
the Muslim pray, right? There is no space between us. So, basically, you go in there, you may
be from Africa, you may be from India, you may be from any, any corner of the world. Right,
when you get on that road to pray, we all get so close to each other. Right? It's actually a
religion that bring us together. But at the same time, you know, when people decide under the
name of religion to, you know, to just kill and do things like that, right? it sounds, um, it's hard,
but I think that has that slowly, that event, slowly, I think... it increases the awareness of leaders
in the Muslim community, right?, where you know, where I pray, or the mosque, to just be an
opportunity for any of us to educate people. So initially, I was afraid, but then I just, you know, of
course, people saw my heart, right? in anything that I was doing. And I had the opportunity
many times at work, whether it be at work, you know, to just tell people that not who that's not
who we are. That's really not what we are about. You know, and, and, of course, you know, that I
believe that help that raised the awareness, or it raised the awareness and it's still going on, I
know the awareness of the religion itself. And I remember my kids studying Islam in school, and
it was a great opportunity, you know, to help them yes, you see this, you know what?, that this is
what this is, this is what our, our footage, and this is not what we about, you know, terrorism is
not what we are about. Right? And then understanding that Islam actually acknowledges every
of the other religions, right, in the, in the sixth pillar of faith. Right? Our faith is in Allah, God,
first, right? our faith in His messengers, right? Our faith in his books, right, our faith in the
messengers, which include Abraham, you know, Jesus, everybody, Joseph, all of them. When
Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam and our fifth in his book, The Torah, the angel, you know, the
Quran or every single one of them, right? This, God umm we believe God sent these books,
right to different communities. Why through evolution and at each time, target in the mindset at
the time of people and how they were living. Right? And so Jesus came, bringing and doing
many miracles. Right? So we believe he brought him and he gave him that power of doing
miracles to the ex... the expression of faith. Because at the time people needed to see that, to
believe that indeed, there is a God, right? And so through evolution, you know, of a human and
all, we believe all those books came. And Mohamed Salah Salem was the last to come with the
Quran, again, him in an area in an environment, right?, where the culture was, you know, killing
girls, baby girls, right? And, you know, in many, many, many, many violent things were there,
you know, initially in the culture, right? The worshipping objects and things like that were
predominant at his time. Right? And so in his, in him come in with the Quran to elevate people's
consciousness, right, and get them from that, you know, that's mindset and that culture and that
way of doing things. And he had to fight for people to actually get to the point where they could
believe why he had to clean up completely, right? the cava that place today that we all go and
worship as a Muslim that we all yearn to go right and worship, which is maca. Maca was taught
completely overtaken by idols, right? and for him to be able to bring Islam to people and to bring
the awareness of God to people, those things had to happen. And God needed, God needed for
those people, or those who will believe to believe. And yes, he had to fight. But that does not
mean that Islam is the religion of just fighting and killing, no, not at all. Right? And so for, you
know, for people and information is so readily available nowadays. Really, you know, for
anybody who really wants to understand Islam, they can pretty much get that information online,
you know, but, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what I can say. But, you know, just to say
that, not just like Christianity, and just like, you know, and Islam is just one way that God chose
to bring, you know, to raise people's consciousness and make them understand that there is a
God in that you do good, you will see good, and you do bad, you will find back as well.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, for those people that might know little to nothing about
Islam or Muslims, especially here in the United States. How would you describe what does
being a Muslim looks like to them?
Nasmath Aldrin
I would say being a Muslim. Ah, you know what, let me get your question, right. How will I
describe... how will I describe a Muslim to them?
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, to someone who doesn't, who knows little to nothing about Islam?
Nasmath Aldrin
Okay. So I will say it mostly it's just a human being, like anybody else, right? and we believe in
the uniqueness of Allah, right?. And, you know, we pray five times a day, you know, again, a
way for Allah to remind us, right? those, each time that you get on that road, remember I
created you, right? and so five times a day, we are required to go and do those prayers for that
reason. Because the more we are reminded of who's we are, right and where we come from. It
helped us not only stay grounded, right?, but it helped us just stay on the right path that he has,
you know, cleared us to be cleared all of us to come here for a reason, right? with a mission.
And these five prayers a day is a reminder for us each time of where we came from, who's we
are, who we are. Okay, and that's just, that just, those are just an expression. Of course, you
know, we are... he, what we like, those are killers of, you know, of our religion. But when you
think about it, it just a way for us to stay humble, to stay grounded, and know, where we came
from. And a reminder for us each of those five times a day, that, you know, we are God's all, all
God's kids. And we need to do the right thing, right. So it's just like, if you think about it, you
know, you take a shower five times a day, how much debt will you carry? Not much. Right? So,
yeah, oh, you wash your hand five times a day? How much? No. for the Deaf stain, you know,
within, you know, that purity of spirits. Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Awesome. Is there anything that we didn't get to talk about in this interview today, that you
would like to cover or to talk about? Maybe any comments or any additional thoughts about
anything that was said or maybe not said today?
Nasmath Aldrin
Um, you know, I will say, one thing I will say is encourage anybody, you know, like I said, earlier,
information is so readily available nowadays. You know, and in the Muslim community itself, you
know, we organize, so many opportunity for anybody to come in and learn, even as we are
currently fasting, right. And again, we fast and be nice, mainly, again, to worship God, by then to
keep that spirit period, which is actually good for our health itself. You know, this is, you know, a
period during the year where just those fasting actually are very good for your, of course, for
your spirit, for your spirit, but also for your body. So, we embrace that. And for anybody who is
not, you know, how, who really wants to learn about Islam, so many organizations, by the
Minnesoat, itself having a in an Islamic community, Minnesota, okay, let's CEAI. There are so
many so much information available, even online, Right? there there is translation of Hadith of
the Prophet of his way of living, they are translation of even the Quran, you know, the Quran,
you know that to just to help people be aware. So anybody who is looking for the information,
the information is available. It's just going and finding it. When, because anytime you actually go
and find information, it's just like, you are bringing light into darkness, right? And anytime you do
that, it helps increase your awareness. It helps raise your consciousness. It helps you in this
thing. It helps you see everybody as one as equal. No distinction. Doesn't matter. We don't I
don't see color. I don't, right? I don't see. Good. I don't see I noticed none of that. I just see
human beings, all of us. Just unique in our way, right? masterpiece, each of us a masterpiece.
Absolutely. And he is so much more than we think we are capable of. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Oh, so true. Well, thank you so much for your time today Nasmath I think I learned so much for
you and I hope everyone who listens to this conversation, this interview learns a lot for you as
well, thank you so much again.
Nasmath Aldrin
You're welcome my pleasure (laughs)
Show less
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um... Show more
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um, the first question I have for you is if you can just introduce
yourself and just say a little bit about your background and your
family.
Muna
Yeah, so I am a first generation students. I have parents that are
immigrants from Somalia. My parents came here more than 24 years ago
during Civil War and my family's a very traditional Somali Muslim.
Odalys Lozado
And then could you elaborate on why your parents came here and what
exactly it was like to come during the Civil War?
Muna
Yeah, so my parents basically came to Minnesota, they came to the
States, mainly out of obligation, because during the Civil War, it's
very dangerous time. A lot of people were losing their life. And it
was just a bad time to be in Somalia at the time. So a lot of people
were seeking refuge in Kenya, at a refugee camps where my parents were
for a portion of time with my older siblings. And they had to come to
the US for a better life and a more stable life where I would be born
and my other little brother and other siblings would be born.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say having immigrant parent kind of changed your
lifestyle or the way that you grew up, especially having them lived
through the war?
Muna
Yeah, so basically, my parents put a lot of importance on education,
so that I could get the best experience of American education and in
order to, you know, make something of myself here. I basically felt
kind of an obligation to do good so that my parents didn't just leave
Somalia for nothing, I want to have a better life for them and myself.
Odalys Lozado
Um, and besides incorporating those teachings into your life, were
there any other teaching such as, like, instilling their religion on
you that kind of differed because of having immigrant parents?
Muna
Um, yeah, my parents, I grew up in a Muslim family household. My
parents taught me about the religion, but they didn't really make it
so strict on me, so that like, I have the freedom to, you know,
practice as much as I need to, or you know what I mean, but it wasn't
a very strict household, but the Muslim morals and values were very
aligned in the household. So, yeah.
Odalys Lozado
And at what age were you introduced to these teachings, or when did
you become aware of them?
Muna
um, pretty much my whole life because I just knew growing up, my mom
was Muslim. A lot of my family members would go to Friday prayer and
celebrate Muslim holidays ever since I can remember so pretty much my
whole life.
Odalys Lozado
And now that you mentioned that, you know, you grew up with a lot of
family that wore hijabs at what age were you kind of drawn to it? Or
when did you decide that you wanted to wear it and what was the
reason?
Muna
I just wore in the third grade maybe as early as first or second
grade. And it was just something that I saw my mom do, and it was
something that I really wanted to do because I saw my mom wear it and
my older sisters. So it was just something that I just, was drawn to
and I thought was really beautiful. So I started wearing it at a young
age and I I started to love so much.
Odalys Lozado
you mention that wearing a hijab makes you feel very happy and that
you did it for your mom. However, are there any, like fears or other
emotions that came along with it too?
Muna
Um, you know what, when you grow up as a kid, and sometimes you see
other people not wearing it and like, especially in American country,
where it's not a majority Muslim country, so obviously, you're gonna
get stares, and people are gonna judge you based off your hijab, and
they can just tell that you're Muslim just from looking at you, it can
come with a lot of hard things to deal with. But living in Minnesota
makes it a little bit easier because we are one of the highest
populations of Somali people. So it's kind of like you have a
community. But still, it's still hard at the end of the day.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say things changes as you got older, and you went to
school? Were you still having the same emotions? how did you handle
having to, you know, bring these religious practice into school? Like,
did you feel anything about it? Or were there any problems or
conflicts with it?
Muna
Um, for me, the outside world wasn't much of a determination of me
wearing a hijab it was mostly more with myself. But I've had struggles
wearing it, like I've had times where I don't wear it. And that's just
something that I had to deal with within myself. it's more of a
personal things that I have to deal with. But in reality as I get
older, I haven't really had any negative experiences with people
directly judging me. Or not that I know of, but as I got older it
wasn't more so do with society, but it was more of an internal battle.
Odalys Lozado
And how are you like managing that as you get older? Or what are
things that you're trying to do to make it a little bit more easier?
Muna
Yes, so as I get older, I'm seeing more and more of the beauty of
modesty. So I'm trying to start with the way I speak and carry myself.
Even the way you dress is not just the hijab, it's your whole entire
clothing. So I'm trying to dress more modestly and behave more
modestly. And the way I speak to people and the language I use, so
that I can fully transitioned into wearing the hijab full time.
Because right now, I don't really wear it full time. And that's
something that I always wanted to do. That's one of my biggest goals
is to wear a hijab full time. And, you know, not take Instagram
pictures, without it or go in public without it because it's something
that is important to me to achieve in the future.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely.And talking about that hijab, I feel like there's a lot of
misconceptions behind it. But there's also a lot of misconceptions
behind the religion as a whole. So do you mind kind of addressing some
that you are very familiar with and kind of just deconstructed them
from your perspective. And just elaborating more on the actual
meanings?
Muna
Yeah, so a lot of people have the misconception that wearing the hijab
is oppression, which is completely wrong. Because, say, if a woman
wears a bikini or minimal clothing, they are praised and seen as
liberating themselves and, you know, wearing what they want. But if a
woman wants to wear a burqa or hijab, then they are being oppressed,
they're being forced, which it may be the case in some areas of the
world, but majority of Muslims in America and you know, other free
countries are choosing to wear the hijab, and that is, if you ask me,
that most liberating thing you can do in a world where people are
judging you and seeing you as oppressed or forced. And saying, no, I'm
gonna wear my hijab. So I think that's one of the biggest
misconceptions because most hijabis support the rights of women who
want to use more or less clothing or wear other types of clothing, you
know, so it's just kind of a double standard. And it's kind of sad
that people see it as oppression when it's very beautiful. And Islam
also teaches men to wear modest clothing, and to behave in a modest
way. But it's just not talked about. So that's just one of the biggest
misconceptions.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of elaborating, as you mentioned, you know, as your growing
up, you're trying to instill more practices more frequently and more
long term are there any other ones? You know, besides wearing a hijab
that you also want to incorporate? Or do more frequently? And what's
the reason behind it?
Muna
Um, yeah, so Islam is big on giving back to charity, and that is
something that I do regularly when I do have the means to, but in the
future, when I get more established with my career, I do want to find
bigger ways to make an impact in giving charity or make an
organization to help a community because giving charity and giving
back to the community is a big part of Islam.
Odalys Lozado
And currently are you practicing it? And if so, how? And how do you
plan on kind of expanding on it?
Muna
Yes, currently I am practicing. Right now we're in a month of Ramadan.
So I've been trying to strengthen my relationship with God. So I'm
getting in all my prayers and I'm trying to read the Quran and do
things that are productive, like helping around the house at my mom's
house or sending money back home to my mother's family just doing you
know as much as I can to benefit from the month of Ramadan
Odalys Lozado
and could you kind of expand just for people who aren't as acquainted
with Ramadan what it is?
Muna
So the month of Ramadan is when the Quran was first revealed to
Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and it's a month where
you you basically fast for 30 days from sun rises to sun set. And the
main goal of Ramadan is to get a closer relationship to God and clear
your mind of all the worldly desires that you have like people may
drink or smoke or you know, do things that are not typically our sins
and during this month, it gives everybody a clean slate to you know,
take a break from everything that's going on here and just connect
with God, pray and you know, give to charity and things like that.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned previously that you are students so are there any
difficulties with committing to these while you're a student or while
you have to like deal with you know, schoolwork and then also fast and
also do other things?
Muna
Um, sometimes it can be difficult Yeah, it definitely can be difficult
especially when you're working too I work part time. So some days I
have to break my fast at work. I have to prepare a meal while I'm at
home but I also have classes going on and homework and I have other
responsibilities so it can be a little bit hard but I can do it.
Odalys Lozado
and would you say that you know whether it was your high school or
your college now how are they on meeting the needs that you need
during the month of Ramadan? If they do at all?
Muna
Um, yeah. So I my high school there was a lot of Muslim students so
they did a good job of meeting our needs. They let us sit in the
library when it was Ramadan, so we didn't have to sit in the lunch
room because we weren't eating. They had a prayer room for us. And
even at the U there's multiple places to pray and yeah, I haven't had
any issues.
Odalys Lozado
Again, do you think living in Minnesota and having such a big Somali
Muslim community do you think that kind of helps with providing the
needs to support you? Or just like in school in general, having people
that are going through the same thing as you are, does that make it a
little bit easier?
Muna
Yeah, it definitely helps. I couldn't imagine going, living in a
different state where there's not a lot of Muslim people, because it's
really important to have support, because you do have your family, but
it's also nice to have friends and peers who are going through the
same thing as you and have a community so it's really nice.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think in your able to connect more with the students that
are going through similar situation or through a similar thing you are
going through?
Muna
Um, yeah, it's definitely easier to connect with people who are going
through similar situations as you because I feel like, that's with
anything, it just easier to have someone by your side so whatever task
you have, that may be difficult, it can be easier.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. Overall, just kind of reflecting on your life up until
this point, how would you say that your upbringings and your faith or
being Muslim have played a part in your life?
Muna
Um, yeah, I think Islam has made me a more empathetic person, and a
more cautious person, because when I go outside wearing the hijab, I
just got to know that I'm representing it, I may not represent all of
Islam, but when people look at me, that's what they think of. So I
have to carry myself in a good manner, and respectful way. And also
the teachings and morals of Islam have stopped me from making bad
decisions in my life so many times. And whenever I feel kind of, you
know, when people have times they feel down, or they're going through
stuff, but my religion has been there for me to lean back on so that I
never get to a really dark place. Because in Islam, we believe
everything happens for a reason, and God has written everything for
you. So God's will is very important to me.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned that you feel like you many not represent Muslims as
a whole, but in way represent what being a Muslim is, do you feel any
need to fight back or break down stereotypes? or discrimination? And
if so, what are you trying to do? Or how do you deal with that?
Muna
Um, in the past, I've felt a lot of burden to break down stereotypes
and prove to people that Muslims aren't bad, or, you know, whatever
misconceptions they have. But the older I get, the more I realized
that if people in the year 2021 want to be ignorant, it's their
choice. So it's not really my responsibility to inform people about
what Islam is in the way that like if they're ignorant about it, but
if someone who was genuinely willing to learn about Islam and wants to
know its teachings and stuff like that, I'm definitely open to sharing
what I know. But in terms of ignorant people, I'm not really open to
that anymore, because it's very draining as somebody who is Muslim and
black, you have to constantly explain yourself. So it can be very
draining to your mental health.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely, overall, as a whole based on your experience, how would
you in a few words, describe your experience, if you've had any,
about negative experience from other people because you're Muslim? and
explain how you've dealt with it.
Muna
Um, yeah. looking back, I can't really think of significant times
where I was openly treated badly based on my religion. But at the same
time I've had a lot of nonchalant or kind of stares or remark made to
me because of my religion, you know, so those micro aggressions kind
of made me aware of things at all times. And I got to stay alert to
overthinking things sometimes to see if people are giving me a
microaggression or, you know, so it's very tiring to always have to be
on guard to see if people are looking at you differently or treating
you differently based on your religion. But that's just something that
I have to do.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of following up on that where do you think like these
comments or ignorance stems from?
Muna
Obviously, we had our President Donald Trump who was out there spewing
a lot of different racist and Islamophobic and xenophobic things
towards Muslims, even callings out Somalia and a bunch of other Muslim
countries. So people think it's more acceptable, because somebody like
the president, or even the media, news outlets, normalized it. People
think it's okay to say stuff like that now, like, racially, or
Islamophobic stuff. So I think it stems from, like, the leaders of the
country, and the media, which affects people a lot.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think having Donald Trump as a president, cause there to be
more racism and discrimination? Or did it bring into light the racism
and discrimination that was already there.
Muna
Yeah, no, it definitely did not cause any of the racism, because it
has been going on since this country was built, racism has been a
terrible issue. Also, the xenophobia has been around for decades, but
it's just been made more acceptable. Because if the President would
say something like that, then it kind of gives agency to people who
already think things like that, to go ahead and speak their mind and,
do crazy things.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, definitely. And you also said and mentioned how media plays a
part in this what part would you say it plays?
Muna
Well, media is consumed so much in today's society, where even if
you're not actively looking for information, you can find it casually,
and you might have subconscious thoughts that in the back of your mind
due to the media you consume. So media is just everywhere, and it can
affect your consciously or subconsciously. So that's mainly where we
get our information from. So if somebody actively looks for a certain
type of media, that's what they're going to find. which can affect
their biases and their opinions.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, and, you know, besides the negatives that media brings out,
would you say there's any positive aspects to having media being very
accessible to everyone?
Muna
Yeah, there's definitely positives, people can look for information on
different things that they are curious about. Yeah, there's definitely
a positive to media but there could be miseducation as well.
Odalys Lozado
And how have you found a balance between it?
Muna
Um, I try to get my information from different sources. And before I
speak on certain topics or issues that's going on, I like to do my own
research. Because there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. So,
I like to get my information from different places.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, and then just kind of going back to the beginning of the
interview where you mentioned that your parents very loosely kind of
according to your will instilled their religion onto you, thinking
into the future how would you, give in if you had kids, instill your
religion onto them?
Muna
Note I choose how much I want to practice and in the future, I would
probably do the same for my kids so that they can have their own
relationship with God and Islam and so that they can have it. I think
it causes you to have a stronger relationship with God so, because you
get to experience it for yourself.
Odalys Lozado
looking into the future what are things we can do to break down racism
and Islamophobia that's present, or even the ignorance towards what
being Muslim means?
Muna
um, I think there needs to be more accurate presentation in the media
of Muslims, like if you watch a TV show and there's a Muslim
character, they're often like oppressed or they don't want to be
Muslim or in their religion or it's just a really negative character.
So if there was more positive Muslim characters and TV shows or
Muslims, leaving cities for example has more Muslim representation. In
the government for example, Ilhan Omar, she's breaking barriers for
Somali Muslims, and, yeah, there just needs to be more open dialogue
and more examples of Muslims in America.
Odalys Lozado
You mentioned, Ilhan Omar, being one of the few people to represent
the Muslim community, how does having someone that looks like you
affect or influenced you? Why does representation matter to you?
Muna
I think it's very important, because when you grow up without any
representation of people that are similar to you and culture or
experience or race or religion, seeing them do things that you aspire
to do or, you know what I mean it can be damaging, especially to a
child. Because you don't think that you could see yourself doing stuff
like that but if you see somebody doing it you feel more like you can
do it. Yeah, it's very important. It's very important. And,
especially, Ilhan Omar who wears the hijab. And a lot of times, people
might see the hijab as unprofessional, or, you know, not something
that you can wear in professional settings, or things of that nature,
but she's a leading woman in the government, and she's wearing her
hijab proudly and that's something that's can be admired by young
Muslim girls.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely I agree. And where do you think these like expectations of
what being professional looks like or is versus what being non
professional looks like, where do you think they stem from or where do
they come from?
Muna
I honestly think that it's rooted in racism and yeah
institutionalized racism and the standard of professionalism is based
on white America, even a black woman wearing her natural hair can be
seen as unprofessional. There's many circumstances where black women
in professional settings were told that they can't wear their
dreadlocks or curly hair, you know in professional settings or even in
school settings. So it's definitely rooted in institutionalized
racism. And it was set basically by white America. The standard is
white Americans.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. And as a college student, you're kind of in progress of
changing the course as a first generation student so are there any
struggles that you're faced with in college or just, you know, as a
first generation student in general?
Muna
As a first generation student. You have a lot of internal battles with
yourself because you're doing a lot of things that are considered
uncharted territory because from the beginning with FAFSA, I've had to
do it all alone because my parents did not have the chance to go to
college, or did not speak English that well so it was something that I
had to do alone. And not only that but your college experience is also
a time where you are becoming more of yourself and leaning more and
turning into your adult self. So you have to make decisions for
yourself and it can be very difficult because, especially as someone
who has intersectional personality, I mean, sorry, intersectional
identities. Being Muslim first generation, female, black, you know it
can be very challenging. You just have to deal with a bunch of
different things that the typical college students probably would not
have to definitely
Odalys Lozado
I can agree, and being a first generation student and coming from
immigrant parents do you ever have problems with your racial identity,
like, you know, your parents, obviously, are from Somalia, but grew up
in America. Do you view yourself as like the standard definition of
what American is, or what do you view yourself as or identify yourself
as?
Muna
Um, I definitely have strong cultural roots. I speak Somali with my
parents and family and it's my food and I honestly don't ever feel
like I would feel fully American, by the definition. I was born in
America. And I am American citizen. But my home, always, even though
I've never been to Somalia feels more of home. It's somewhere that I
felt welcomed in feels like more of a home for me. But, um, yeah,
that's what I would say.
Odalys Lozado
And thinking back reflecting on your life as your whole like your
parents teaching, your experience in school and everything you
learned, looking forward, what are your future plans, both in your
career and personal life?
Muna
So I just plan on incorporating all the things that my parents
instilled in me. And I just hope to graduate within the next two years
for my end goal for my health service management degree, and hopefully
one day I do want to open some type of health care facility for
vulnerable adults, specifically in areas where it's low income in
Minneapolis mainly targeting immigrants because that's something that
I'm passionate about.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think your life experience up until now has been a very
influential or is a deciding factor?
Muna
All of my experiences as a first generation Muslim woman, black
they've all shaped my experience, so they will shape my goals in the
future.
Odalys Lozado
Do you have any closing remarks or final thoughts that you would like
to share.
Muna
No, not really.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, well thank you for taking the time to be interviewed, It's very
appreciated.
Muna
Thank you for interviewing me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 01:58PM
22:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
symphony, minneapolis, people, music, augsburg, augsburg college, concert, year, choir,
isaac stern, students, band, directed, tickets, sang, girls, choral, play, talk, elizabeth
SPEAKERS
Gerda Morten... Show more
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 01:58PM
22:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
symphony, minneapolis, people, music, augsburg, augsburg college, concert, year, choir,
isaac stern, students, band, directed, tickets, sang, girls, choral, play, talk, elizabeth
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:01
On this Choral Club tour up to Central Minnesota, which I went with people carrying my
luggage because I was recovering from surgery.
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:13
I played the components for the choir often then play the components for Miss Gerda's
fall when she sang solos and for Mr. Mr Opseth when he did the other cello playing. And
then we did a tour were taken by car from congregation to congregation. And on our final
ride home on the train from up near Brener downtown Minneapolis. I had instructed the
girls to be very quiet and dignified, then lady Lake on the train, not too upset. I said, you
know, your responsibility for the reputation of Augsburg. It just simply is up to you people.
And after we had been on the train for a half an hour, so a woman came up to me
interested I Mrs. Clarence Francis. And I just, I recognize, you know, I saw this gang of girls
coming on the train. And I thought, we're really going to have a nice ride into Minneapolis
at this point. But she said, I want to compliment you on the very fine sort of manner in
which your girls appear. Well, we came back to Minneapolis and the young men all met
the girls and they had dates at night, I suppose, and so on, and everybody talked about
this. But the grand payoff was the fact that we had a $500 balance from our first choral
club tour. And they meant Glee Club hadn't indebtedness and the grand piano in the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 1 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
chapel $500.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:40
So the girls help the men pay for the balance of that first grand piano. Well, that was the
way the choral club started. They kept up having a choral club and a choir until around
1933-34. When they merged into a cchoir their there's a great deal of feeling about that
we should still keep separate organizations. But Mr. Sateren who had succeeded Mr.
Opseth, was much interested in having a choir. So we had a choir, composed of the
women of the choral and the Men's Glee Club. And then Mr. I think Donald Merrick was
director of that when Leland Sateren came back to service after the war. And he picked
up the second choir, which was then called the Crocker, but that was also a mixed choir.
So they started out with mixed choir music at this point. And we've had these groups
going and much music going since. But one of the very wonderful things about music at
Augsburg College is that we've been in this Metropolitan Community where the arts have
been coming from the beginning of the Minneapolis Symphony under the leadership of
emo Oberhof are playing the old Lyceum downtown Minneapolis and 11th Street. As an
undergraduate student at University Minnesota, I remember very well the first concert I
went to, to hear over half or play direct. And I had heard symphonies and this but I had
not heard tone poems. And every time subsequent years when I go to hear the
Minneapolis Symphony, they play the pines of Rome or the fountains of Rome. My mind
goes back to that concert, and there was a Debussy number, and I'd never heard Debussy
before. I think they played the sea, America.
G
Gerda Mortensen 03:35
And it simply, I was speechles with the beauty of the music and the loveliness of this and
other Oh, this is what I want to be doing want to go here. Well, I had taken piano lessons
from Sverdrup The very delightful treasure of Augsburg College, who's a sister George
Sverdrup. She had graduated from the Minneapolis school music was a very able musician
herself, had given some piano lessons, but because of problems with the curvature of the
spine, she had found it very difficult to sit and play piano. So she had accepted this
position the treasure box pretty quick. She did with utmost beauty and dignity, and she
added something that was just very fine. But she had also taught piano to tennis girls fold
who was teaching voicera dogs forget the time that I came, and her sister sacred, who was
dietitian at deaconess, and who was organist at Trinity Lutheran Church for a period of 35
or 40 years was a four of us decided that we would buy season tickets for the Minneapolis
Symphony concerts. So for years, we went downtown to the old Lyceum, we bought the
cheapest tickets. We oftentimes walked is running there was a good worker. And then we
would talk over the music. So I learned music by listening to music. I didn't know I had
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 2 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
never formally studied music. But the thing just simply grew and grew, then over half or
left, and what was the name for Bruggen came. And we certainly get sort of tired, different
broken and Jenny, that piano violin is that he had, and then all at once, one day, it was
announced that we were going to have Eugene Armand DS director. He played directed
our Friday evening concert, and I was so excited. There's going to be an all Tchaikovsky
program and Sunday, I immediately went to the box office and bought tickets for my
whole family for the Sunday afternoon concert, and took everybody over there, including
Elizabeth, who's just a little little girl, but we sat and listened to the magnificent music that
he was able to bring out of that artist. He wasn't there many years and then he was
succeeded, but Dimitri metropolis, and we thought that we'd had the pinnacle with our
Monday.
G
Gerda Mortensen 06:01
But when this tall Athenian strode to the podium and directed this Symphony, it was
though it were all electrified over again. And I remember that opening concert, he did a
piano concerto with an orchestra and directed with his head and sat and played and
directed and oh, we just thought now. So we kept going year in and year out. This was a
Friday evening routine, listening to all this grand music. And then about in 1900 and 54.
We were approached by a subcommittee of the Minneapolis Symphony, in their interest to
try to bring the college's to, and more young people 10 the symphony orchestra concert,
they were starting something that they called Symphony forums, and they wanted to do a
pilot study with Augsburg College. Claire's German, I think, was in the Director of Public
Relations at that time, and he referred Stanley Hawks. And one Mr. London one, Mr. Zoe,
to me. So we sat down to talk about what we might do. It happened that my niece
Elizabeth Martin son, who was a major in music was chairman of music that year. So I
called her in And together, we sat down to talk about what we could do about selling
tickets, at a reduced rate to Augsburg College students and to Augsburg faculty. And then
three or two or three times a year, we would have the artists from the university come
over to meet with us. This just challenged everybody's interest. And that first year, two
thirds of our faculty and students, but this series of tickets, and this was an amazing sort of
thing. And in the program notes of that opening concert it talks about was with Martin's
and his Chairman, this committee, and that they had now established Symphony forums
at Augsburg College.
G
Gerda Mortensen 08:31
We arranged a dinner for all these people, faculty and students and anyone else who
would like to come and we were around 200 people in the old dining room. And on top of
the rat, he came over to talk to the group. And he talked about what constitutes listen to
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 3 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
music. How do you listen to music? And how does the symphony operate and how does
the symphony work? At the end of the evening, we felt as if we had been at some renewed
spirit heights. Anybody who had a deep interest in religion and spirituality felt that they
had been tremendously and noble by this experience. We have some pictures in the family
and in the archives of durante being there and I know Elizabeth has one that she
cherishes, highly taken with diversity because she had done this. We also had the privilege
of having Isaac Stern come over to Augsburg one evening to talk to the symphony, we
decided that it was better to have a symphony forum the evening before the concert so
that people could come and meet this person and then talk with him. Isaac Stern is
always very willing to do this kind of thing and was quite articulate. He brought his very
charming wife with him. We were all ready for this down in the Student Lounge of science
Hall. When r1 to electric stern came on and the lights went out well Garrett a new her
some candles were in the home maintenance department and some candlesticks. So she's
grounded around and found all kinds of candles and candlesticks. And that little old that
little not old but that that student lounge was just so delightful. Set somebody at the door
to meet the people with the candle and to light the past down. It just set such a sort of a
romantic kind of setting. And
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:34
Mr.--oh, the business manager of the Minneapolis Symphony--Oh well, I think it was
named a little later. But he escorted Mr. Mrs. Isaac Stern, and they came on down I don't
remember now whether I wonder if there was a mystery land in this mystery Ellie and I
think that they were there with us. at the dinner wonder about he was there. Donald
Dayton was present because he was on this board to try to interest young people in a
concert. But of course the fact that we had done set to superb job of selling to such a
large number of people was a tremendous incentive to these people. And subsequently,
they extended this service to our colleges. And busloads used to come from Carleton and
St. Olaf Angus Davis. Adolphus and from St. Catherine's now, but they always said you
people disappear beginning and and then the next year. Durante came back again. And
he talked about his own bringing up in Hungary and about listening to music. And he and
he talked about Bartok because he would Bella Bartok was one of his favorites. And he
talked about how as you grew up in in hungry, you just grew up with music as though
you're eating the soil and the spirit in the soul of a country. Well as students who were
there and listen to these just never forgot these things.
G
Gerda Mortensen 12:08
And other years, we followed up and tried to get some people to come over. But then
there gets be competition to go to the Masterpiece Series. And some other kinds of things
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 4 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
in the Minneapolis Symphony is changed to that they offer now to smaller series and
within these, and students still may buy tickets at discount. And we did in those early days
also have quite a few students who actually did the symphony. They had actually
downtown and they ushered over the Minneapolis Symphony, but then the music students
at the University of Minnesota got first chance and so they're less of them, but if they
really wanted to and didn't have money to buy tickets, then they could also you know,
make an effort and several of them did to get there. And now we have scrubber CHATZKY
and desert upcoming sim is in centennial year. We are speaking for the 19th of October to
have the Minneapolis Symphony play a Centennial concert. The original premiere of that
workflow Norway's work for orgs, written for Augsburg college choir, with the music
provided by the Minneapolis Symphony. The symphony will also want to play something
else they will play something Mozart, which relates to Mozart, whose home was in
Augsburg, Germany paying tribute to that connection. And also, they will play something
that they are already acquainted with. And so we're going to ask Mr. James Johnson
music department at Augsburg who has done the Greek concerto with a Minneapolis
Symphony and a concert at our place to do this at the university. Those were somehow
the beginnings of some of all of this.
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:50
Now talking about the University of Minnesota, we were just across the river, anybody
could walk over all the content, all the programs, all the lectures, all the workshops, all the
drama, they were open to us and faculty people at Augsburg, were always interested in
buying tickets, getting tickets, encouraging students to go. And so we have some of all of
this. We tried to think too, that there were some needs in our communities, we wanted to
reach out into the community to do something. And so one year, a number of us thought it
would be a very wonderful thing. If at Christmas time each year, we could bring members
of all the different churches in Minneapolis together to the Minneapolis auditorium TO
HAVE A Christmas Carol sing. Couldn't we start a create a new tradition to do something
like this? Well, I think we did it about three years. And we had quite a large number of
people coming. But then I think that with Claire's Germans coming to be in the Public
Relations Office, he didn't quite see the value of this. He didn't think it would be a going
thing. And so this idea was dropped only to be picked up by the Lutheran Welfare Society
using Luther College choir. At the core, our is the focal point and its director to put on
them as I every year at Advent on Advent Sunday.
G
Gerda Mortensen 15:22
This continued for many, many years. And many of the Augsburg choir people, anybody
who likes to sing could go and join the big mass choir that sang for the Messiah. I suppose
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 5 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
the year that this Messiah stood out as a greatest rendition was the year that Jenny's
girdles falls saying the alto so and john to whom Mr. Sateren described as the best tenor in
the Twin Cities, saying the tenor solos, Russia Schouler from the University of Minnesota
race, and I forgot to know who your soprano was. But our we were just as proud as we
could be of Jenny scribbles fold and john to because they had done it absolutely excellent
work. acquires took tours east and west and north and south. And we had a band that
had been started in 1900 and 52, when Mayor Subodh came to Augsburg, he had directed
MacArthur's band in the South Pacific during the war period. And it came to us much
interested in doing something with the band. I was in charge of freshman week that year.
And as I met him in the hallway, I needed to go to the bank. He said, Let me take you
down to the bank. And on the way we talked about, what could we do to build up a
number of people would like to be in the band. So we decided we write to all the freshmen
everybody to take any instrument along the table fade and bring them with them and
take them up to freshmen camp.
G
Gerda Mortensen 17:04
And so this we did, and out of that group, there were some 7080 students who brought
their instruments along and made us have all had the electric car they are being able to
bring out the best in these youngsters. And they played some had so much fun rehearsing
then, and it was a nucleus of a band which grew and grew and grew from then, until now
he is a highly selective band. He is a second band. He is a repertoires, cultured class with
people just simply get acquainted with a great deal with music. The band has played for
national conventions downtown and at one of these national conventions meeting in
Minneapolis. He met some people from England and from Europe, other places who are
attending, and he invited them to come to attend. What was known for a number of years
is the spring and Tiffany at Augsburg College, which was a creative use of music, music,
art, drama, and speech.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:07
Taking and this was always a second Sunday before Palm Sunday. Is it first or second?
Well anyway, before proceeding Palm Sunday. But we took the whole idea spring and
Tiffany is some creative way to express our own feeling about Easter about resurrection
about eternal life.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:31
And as these people that Mayo had invited to come from that national convention
walked out of Simon LB Hall where that person Tiffany was given. I overheard somebody
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 6 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
say, this is the most creative thing that I've seen in the line of music and all of us say this
reminds me of a story that Mr. Fauci, our chemistry professor told one time as he gave a
chapel talk, how are you going to learn how to appreciate the music, the mystery fast, he
was raised in the area of South Dakota, about the area where Roblox book giant in the
years had it setting. His family situation was such that he was not able to go to high
school until he was something like 15 1617 years of age. And so I think in two years, he
studied everything in high school and was ready to go on to college. In his home
community, there was a dear old country Fiddler. And he played the film. And he thought
there was just no music quite like the country Fiddler. So when he went to college, I don't
remember where this was. But anyway, he was always told that he should go and listen to
some other music and expand his interest in concert to music was, so he did go. And he
went to here concert and he went to your recitals. And he went to hear symphonies. But
all the time his thought went back to that country Fiddler. No music really came up to
what the country Fiddler was. And after he graduated, he went back to his home
community one time, and lo and behold, the country Fiddler was to play.
G
Gerda Mortensen 20:24
And lo and behold, he said, I discovered what I learned. And I had learned it by going to
listen, and listen, and listen. And imperceptibly I had grown. And I suddenly realized that
the symphony music and the beauty of all of this, this was what my soul really wanted.
And so it is also in the field of literature, you said, some people write books about flowery
frontier, it's in there so flowery, that they're just too heavy with perfume, and some
describe the backyard. So you see every pig and every bit of filth there ever is. You don't
need to see all the beauty, you don't need to see all the pills, you can find things that will
talk about things. And, and there can be something which is a happy medium between the
two. And something which is real and true and significant. And this is what's great
literature. So you can develop a capacity for great literature, and the capacity for great
music and the feeling that you have for art and for drama. by exposing yourself to these
things enough times until somehow by the process of osmosis. They've gotten into you
and they're part of your will bandwidth of your being. That was I've just never forgotten
that little talk by Mr. Fuzzy [audio cuts off]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 7 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:02PM
64:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, people, minnesota, college, day, field, department, christensen, year,
accreditation, faculty, university, education, girls, lutheran, home, dean, moved, colleges
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mo... Show more
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:02PM
64:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, people, minnesota, college, day, field, department, christensen, year,
accreditation, faculty, university, education, girls, lutheran, home, dean, moved, colleges
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:10
This is July 31, Marion Lindemann and I are still reminiscing, today we want to talk about
some of the things which we saw happening at Augsburg, which we think helped build the
present day liberal arts college, from developing liberal arts concept up through the years.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:01
Dr. Russell Cooper came to the University of Minnesota and as a representative with the
North Central Association, organize some meetings of the Minnesota private colleges.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:15
Dr. Sverdrup invited Professor Hendricks and then me to go with him to attend the first
such one, at the College of St. Catherine's, at least this I think, is the first one. Besides
being served a most delicious dinner in five, six courses are the most delicious food and
the most beautiful dishes that I'd ever eaten of them. We had an amazing sort of meeting.
Sister Antonine was president college, St. Catherine's Anna, and very brilliant and able
woman, Dean Pike from the University of Minnesota had been on the staff of the Board of
Regents are the advisors and creating and building up the College of St. Catherine's. I'm
not sure whether he still was living at that time and was there. But anyway, this was the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 1 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
beginning of a series of meetings with the North Central Association, talking about
college teaching, and how to teach better and how to reach people, testing programs.
And all this and out of this school, the cooperative effort of all the colleges in the state of
Minnesota, to have a joint testing program, and to develop a form of application to
colleges, which are the college's used Augsburg College being a and they offer but was
always at the top of the list. But I know that we grew a great deal by the experience of
joining with these other people. During the days of pushing for some accreditation, we
had a number of students who wanted to go on to graduate school, the University of
Minnesota after I came to Augsburg, and I know that we were seeking various kinds of
creditor nation with the State Department in Minnesota.
G
Gerda Mortensen 03:01
And they said if you can be accredited by your different departments at the University of
Minnesota, then I think this was a step in the direction of accreditation. And I recall very
vividly the one day I came down from chaplain here to Dr. Craig from the history
department universe, Minnesota. And one other man who was starting to do some
examination of different departments. Dr. Craig has been my advisor when I did my
undergraduate work in history, and he said, Are you teaching history year? And I said yes.
And Professor Hendrix and well, if you and Hendrix and they're teaching history here, I
know the history department is ok. So we were accredited by the history department.
Marion Lindemann tells me that some man from the French department came over to see
her. And I know that number of the different departments. So department by department,
we were accredited by the University of Minnesota. This led to a kind of a State
Department accreditation. And I recall to that the graduate school, I think, under Dean
Ford made a survey of the kind of work that Augsbug College graduates had been doing
at the University of Minnesota and found a very credible record. And so our students
graduates were allowed to enter graduate school with in regular process after that. But I
recall that when some of the years students graduated and wanted to teach in states
other than Minnesota, that is very deep, oftentimes took the train to the State
Department in these different states, and talk to them and really sold them on the idea
and explain to them that a graduate of Augsburg College was really glad to to have an
educated institution that was accredited with the University of Minnesota and with the
Minnesota Department of Education. I know he made one such trip to Montana, he made
one such trip to Oregon went to trip the state of Washington, these were really costly, and
we're very difficult.
G
Gerda Mortensen 05:02
But he did them in order to help the students. So I think that out of an experience, which
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 2 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
grew out of the church together with our growing relationship with the University of
Minnesota, in this accreditation, was a workshop that the North Central, no, not the North
Central the American Lutheran Church made. There was an American Lutheran
conference formed by several of the church body bought joining together the then he sees
the AOC, the August tennis ended, and several others, they set up several commissions.
And among the Commission's that were established was one called the commission and
higher education. The executive secretary of that department was Dr. JCK. price was still
living, retired from his work for some some years ago. He was an April scholar and an
April, administrator. Among the people on his commission, I know Dr. George served at
one time whether Dr. Bernard Christensen was concurrent with that or not, I don't know.
But in the fall of 1935, Dr. Price had sent and this commission had sent invitations to all the
Lutheran colleges in the United States to meet at St. Olaf College. The first weekend in
October. Some four or 500 people came to that conference. Of course, there were several
hundred faculty people at St. Olaf, but there were representatives from Pacific Lutheran
University and the West Coast. Oops, our college and Wagner in the East Coast. And
happily, Dr. Craftsman from Valparaiso, the Missouri Synod was there. And he was an
ardent follower of this group all those particular years. And many all the colleges of this
Midwest area from the Appalachians to the Rockies.
G
Gerda Mortensen 07:22
They talked a great deal about the philosophy of Christian higher education. And I think
maybe they call Lutheran higher education. But like, in America, he said, why should say
always Lutheran because some of these places aren't just Lutheran isn't a Christian rather
than just Lutheran. This was one of the distinctions that we need to take a look at and
know. Now, just prior to this, Arthur Nash, at Augsburg headed a years sabbatical in order
to travel to New Zealand and Australia, and a workshop with a woman from the
university, so who is heading up this research, and I had had is a years leave of absence
flew out and teach in China during these times and these experiences where we visited
other countries and visited other colleges and universities. Again, I think the tool has got a
great deal outlook, something which we needed so early, to sort of bolster up the idea of
what kind of beds we should have in some of our educational programming. Shortly after
this, that to spread died, and entrepreneurs Christians, Christensen succeeded as
president Professor HN. Hendrickson served as acting president the year between one of
the things that Hendrickson asked me to do for him that year, said so many people are
wanting to go into social work and social work is upcoming field. So he asked me if I
would make a study and bring a report to him requirements in the curriculum for courses,
which would be necessary to lead up to the graduate school and social work at the
University of Minnesota. This I did other things I found there should be a survey course, the
introduction to home economics. Subsequently, we hired Mrs. Springer, to be our dietitian,
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 3 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and she taught two classes of introduction to home economics, his general education in
what had been the old laundry rooms at Morton Hall. But we will have another recording
session and bring all these people together, who worked with the Home Economics at
Augsburg. This is just to note that it is coming. But we also found that it would be very
important then, in this discussion with Dr. Christensen and Dr. Martin clambake, who had
been brought to Augsburg in the fall of 1930.
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:01
1938 38, I suppose was in the fall of 38. That we would need to make a preliminary survey
of what it would require to become a member of the North Central Association. We
learned that Dr. Neil NEA le at the University of Minnesota Professor of Public school
administration was on an examine committees in our central Association. And he also
made a practice of doing a private survey of colleges following the pattern so that we
engage to the services of Dr. Neil to make therapy. This was at a time when they were
discussing the pros and cons of whether to move out to Augsburg Park, or to stay on the
particular campus where we were just completed the in 1938 39 was a stretch above the
down Memorial Hall, which is very stupid day, given his last measure of physical strength
for and with this one new building located there. It seemed hard to think in terms of
moving out to dog park. Dr. Neil interviewed many people pro and con about accepting
that invitation to go out to Augsburg Park and build there. But his strong recommendation
at the end of these studies was that we stay and become a Metropolitan College. There
are many suburban colleges, but there are very few and there is no Lutheran Metropolitan
College. He spoke very enthusiastically about mandolin College in Chicago, adjacent to
Loyola University, which mandolin is a college for women. You know at that time, he spoke
about that as a beginning one who was that was doing a very excellent kind of thing.
G
Gerda Mortensen 12:10
Well, no Capital University is located in Columbus, Ohio, that's losing his former ALC. But
most of the colleges are located in rural towns or out of the country. Since then, of course,
Carthage College has moved from a rural community and Illinois to to the shores of Lake
Michigan, north of Chicago, and one of those separate towns. So it really is in the city. And
of course, I think the Missouri Synod have number of schools that are in cities. But at least
at this time, we made this recommendation was very strong, to stay where we were in to
plan to build and to develop our college there. So following this report, this study made by
him, which indicated a number of our great weak spots, especially in our business affairs
and our business arrangements. Then we moved on to develop for as a faculty, a five year
program, this we should do each year for five years. And having completed that five year
period, then we had corrected some of these glaring mistakes. At least we thought we
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 4 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
were current, and made application to nurse central Association for accreditation. This
meant a year long study and reports and blanks. Now these copies of these are on file, I'm
sure in the dean's office or in the DNS records. And I remember very vividly that they came
to examine us one day I'd been having about was a flu. And I'm pretty day probably was
walking around with a walking pneumonia anyway, I went over to the Memorial Hall
dining room to meet these people. And we were going to talk and I became violently ill
and it'd be taken home and and i think it sort of threw the monkey wrench into the whole
business of what we're trying to do. At least they recommended that we wait a few years.
Before we Well, let's see the application went in. And at that time, we didn't have a library,
except the old library, which had been expanded the ground floor of what is now called
Old Main.
G
Gerda Mortensen 14:47
And we were turned down and accreditation. They said really you have enough going for
you so that we could give you accreditation, accepted if we give you a education now you
will delay getting your library. And we just feel that a new library is an exceedingly
essential part of this. Some of this you will find I'm sure in the references in the
correspondence that regard to that that's on file. So the question was, what are we going
to do? How are we going to get the money, our church body had decided that we would
have to have $100,000 pledged before the annual meeting in order to be able to raise the
money? Well, this was around 1900 5152. And in the spring of the year of 1900 52. One of
the senior boys had been in service Russell Berg and his fiancee, Esther Larson, who was
just finishing herself or here said to me the truth conference is going to be in Seattle this
summer. Why don't you come and go out west with us right out with us. Russell had
bought a car. dad and my sister and her family are coming for the meeting, mother's
staying home getting ready for the conference. Why don't you ride out with us and one of
the other boys is going to ride out to so before in our car and dad and my sister has been
two little boys and the other car. And I said oh, wouldn't that be fun and just walked away
thinking that no students are going to ask the Dena women to ride out west with him. In
the afternoon those two young people came into my office and they're Russell said I'm
dead serious misfortunes. And we'd like to have you ride out with us. Mother can't come in
as his mother can't go out. And we two boys don't want to ride along just with Esther, we
really love to have you come. So the upshot of the matter was, I did go and you don't drive
2000 miles was following the young people who accepted you as an equal.
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:51
And I discovered again, the tremendous insight that they had into the running of the
college, and the deep concern and the deep interest. And I talked about many things. And
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 5 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
of course, they want to know just why didn't we get accreditation with our central? Why
were we turned down. And then Russell said, you know, we should tell dad some of these
things. But he got off to Seattle, Nothing doing. He wanted me to have his room at his
home. So he and his boyfriend took some bunks down in the basement and I was extra
guests in the home. I went to visit some of my relatives for a week after the annual
conference was over. And then was coming back on the train. And we were having a
picnic down on the beach. And Russell said come on now level with that level with that. So
I started to tell some of the inside problems that we had at the institution. And the
tremendous need that there was for this library for the accreditation. And when I get
through talking about all these things, Mr. Berg said, I'd like had a chance to raise
$100,000 for you. I said, may I tell my president this when I come home? Yes, he said
anyway. So I went immediately to the president's office. And the letter was dispatched
that very day to him, inviting him to come and to do this. But he and Mrs. bird came in the
fall. And they were my houseguests for about two months. And Gilberg traveled much of
the time. And he got sick world Yama to come with him. And they traveled up into North
Dakota, all around to the sea and to do different things, meet different people. And on his
own at his own expense, giving all this time just travel. He came to the annual conference
set following June with $100,000 pledged. And so great way with clear to go ahead and
to build this library providing we could get the accreditation that this introduced him to
Augsburg and he would always come for homecomings. And I remember one year he said
I owe my interest in Augsburg to go to Martin's and the visit that she made to our home
and the sharing of the needs of this institution with us. He was subsequently elected to the
Board of Regents and served for 10 years. During that time, he really started to have our
colleagues administration put on a really better business basis. He was a businessman
from Seattle, he knew business.
G
Gerda Mortensen 19:45
He went down to visit Valparaiso University studied the way in which they promoted
things. And we had the advice of a finance advisor for a number of years after that. But
this was an incentive to get the money. And having gathered the money, we built the
building. And then we wrote, again to make an application for accreditation with our
central. And this time, we had to have a year long study. So it would take us a whole year.
And at the end of the year. Again, the examiners were to spend a day with us. And at nine
o'clock in the morning, I was to be together with the other administrative people in the
President's conference room meeting with these people. 10 minutes of nine that morning,
a student from Martin Hall came crashing into my room and she said, we found someone
to up in the attic, with sheets ready to commit suicide? What should we do? Well, I dashed
over to the room and immediately called her college physician, who in turn call
psychiatrists. And he said keep an eye on that girl all day. I said I will have to have
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 6 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
parental permission to ask wiser. And they live in the country. So I got these two girls,
roommates of this girl to not go to classes, but keep watching her all morning. The college
doctor was coming on campus, and the psychiatrist was alerted. So I came 15 minutes late
to that meeting. And then I needed to put on the longest after the hour was over. I said I
was an index. And it simply had to be excused because it's an emergency it isn't. But they
accepted this. And then when the man was in having a conference with me about my
work, I had put in a long distance call to the Father.
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:55
But they lived in a rural telephone line. And I said some emergencies happen Would you
please get to a private phone and call me back. And I couldn't understand why a whole
hour went by before he called back. He called back to say there has been such a
snowstorm out here. I had to wait until the worst of the snowstorm was over so that I could
get to town to telephone. When I explained the situation he gave me permission to then
then this meant this when I when this I said this tell for this emergency calls come you're
welcome to sit here and listen to the conversation or to step out whichever you wish, what
he decided to step out. But I arranged then and then telephone immediately to the doctor
and all and said that I personally would bring her out to Glenwood hills at five o'clock
when I will be through with some of these meetings. But that day which was so crucial for
us here I was faced with these most awful situation and then all went to girl said she
slipped out of her hand somewhere we don't know where she is on the she'd gone to get
her mail or something and then they hit located again. But by five o'clock when I walked
into the hospital with her and met the psychiatrists, and she was registered in and I could
finally having given it over two dinners. When my way home. I thought I had never lived
through that kind of a day. And what kind of impression with these people have of me
and my work? Well just look up to the record of the report when we were credited and see
what they say about Garrett and Martin's. There were two people, faculty people that
were singled out for distinctive comment when they created this. One was Ernie Anderson
is the head of Physical Education Department. And his standard describes athletes
athletics is concerned. And the second person was Gary Martin. Who is doing well. At least
credit to see Marion is insisting didn't tell her well, it just said that she is just Well, they
were disapproved of things. And Dr. Christensen said to me afterwards, you got us
accredited was an art center Association. Yes, I think so.
G
Gerda Mortensen 24:27
So of course I was terribly happy because I had really gotten Gilberg to get interested. But
it was a student that private me his own son that prompted me to do this. And these
students confident in me and in my interested in institution, and they're showing their
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 7 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
interest. And then in turn getting Mr. Bird to come I opened my home for them they were
there and and I'm caught some of these things encourage them. And OES set for he had
his 50th birthday and discovered it was the same day that Bernard Kristensen had 15th
birthday. So they had open house over there. Now everybody spoke very fondly of Dr.
Christensen. They either used his initials BMCZ spoke about him or Dr. Christensen. And
when Gilbert came in, he slapped him on the shoulder and said, Hi, Bernie, how are you?
So we we were credited with the North Central Association. This made a very wonderful
feeling among the people on the faculty and the students at the college catalog and now
carry the statement fully credit with the North Central Association. This was a very
important aspect of the student need that had been met. Faculty felt very happy about
this. And proceeded immediately to make a five year plan again for a study of the growth
and development of the college faculty study committees reshare we had some faculty
workshops every fall with sometimes an extra week of summer school workshop. In
addition to this, in order to try to take a look at the problems of the growing College and
the needs for a current college. That was meeting the needs of today. Data Christensen
came as president box for college without the experience of being trained and
administration. He immediately set forth and his brilliant wife with him to study and read
everything possible that they could lay their hands on, on the problems of higher
education in the United States.
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:43
The progressive movements within higher education the United States and immediately
became became friends with Ruth Eckert Paulson, at the University Minnesota and other
people attended the national convention. And and I think intellectually equipped
themselves both Dr. Christensen and his wife to know what some of the trends were and
what some of the needs were. In. in those early years, we had a feeling that they were
really they intellectual leaders, they had a scope and their own education and scope in
their intellectual thinking, which rubbed off on to other faculty people. And we felt that
here, we had real intellectual leaders, as well as spiritual leaders. adapter, Nash was asked
to be Dean of the College for a year, he served a year and then he said to me one day, I
just can't be the Dean of the College. Because I don't feel that that Christensen comes in
and talks over problems with me. He talks him over with his wife at home and comes with
these ideas. And this is it and we all felt this way. When he came on, he asked us all to sit
down and he scrapped everything we ever had in student personnel work. And he wanted
this to simply to start from scratch all over again. It was very difficult I know. And some of
those first years, I resigned by letters three times, I said, I can't stand this, I have to have
the scope to work and move. And to do as I think is right to do and the insight that I've
gained. And so graduate after Christmas and came to census and to realize it. And when
we moved into the setup and decided to have student personnel work, he said, Now I want
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 8 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
you to be coordinators, student activities, so all the Student Life on the campus is under
your direction. So I really was an associate dean of students, which Title I didn't get until
my retirement year. It was an honorary promotion, Dr. Anderson said it carried no financial
increment. So on is accepted to but this was one of the things that I think that the North
Central Association workshop in problems of higher education to University Minnesota
had one or two people at Augsburg College continuously from 1945.
G
Gerda Mortensen 29:20
Through all the years, some problem which needed to further study at Oxbridge was taken
by some faculty person. And I remember when we were starting to talk about building a
college center, college union Student Union, that I asked the inquiry one day, there's
anybody done anything in background, the philosophy of what is needed in all of this?
Maybe this is a topic that should be selected, maybe Mrs. Peters and your barn or Ernie
Anderson, or somebody turned around and said, Well, I think maybe you better go. So I
went from my third workshop and problems apparently education, and did the
preliminary study for the philosophy and the basis on which you're going to develop a
college center. These workshops and came back and with reports, and we tried to
implement some of these things that we had learned. And also at this time, other teachers
were encouraged to go to national conventions. There had been no but for national
conventions earlier, although doctors allowed me to go to conventions of the resistors.
Sometimes I had to pay my own expenses. But I just felt that a national convention, to
keep me abreast with my professional field was a necessity. And when Peter armor class
came, and they were talking about other people taking turns each three people in
department taking one year each in which to go to national convention, I said
administrative people and people in administration should go every year, you can't
possibly wait every three years. Two great changes are occurring in all of this feeling. So he
agreed to this. And the last years that I was there, I went to conventions with expenses
paid every year on these things had some implication as you came back and tried to
implement many of these. So we needed to keep accredited and keep growing. One of
the areas that needed more strengthening was the Business Administration. We also
needed to know where we were going to go and current educational trends.
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:38
The year that Mr. Harbo was acting president, we had the Booz Allen Hamilton study. And
they made a survey of us to see where we should go and head for the next five years, the
next 10 years. And this last year 1960 evidence 68 the business department and the
business director arrange to have a study made and so at this point, Mr. posses become
the Administrative Assistant to the President. And there is a new program plan for the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 9 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
financial record keeping in the development of some of these things at the college. But
these are all things which were steps in the direction of accreditation, we were again
examined by n Kate, or we were examined first about seven years ago. And we were given
the accreditation, and Kate for higher for the high school education that we're training for
secondary schools, and then temporary accreditation for elementary education. But if you
listen to the are taped interview with Martha Maxim, you see that we were given full
accreditation with NK now for elementary education. And it's a real appreciation the kind
of work when she came in the insight that she had as to what should be taught in
clambake had gone to a workshop in higher education and came back with a program,
which we thought would be the kind of coursework which we needed for setting up a
department we all enjoy each occasion. And she being interested in this area, I asked her
to take a look at it. And she said well, then didn't come back. He had to talk with her and
he and he said we'll come back with what you would think would be a course. So she sat
down on the basis of the needs teachers, it's a to me, I have not about a course in
elementary education, which I would like to suggest. And this subsequently, of the Martin
clambake somewhat reluctantly gave up the full plan which he thought was perfect to
bowed out as it were to her. And the department structured is Martha Madson thought it
should be. And she has done demonstrated, in the years since that this has been
exceedingly important and very effective program. We could do well to do something
with secondary education along the same line.
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:18
Of course, a college is composed of students and faculty. I think over the years of some of
the people who started some of the strengths in their various departments. RB nail came
as a first teacher of science. He was there dogs frequent I came a very simple little
laboratory down on the ground floor of Old Main and exceedingly simple little Physics
Laboratory. But in that Physics Laboratory, somebody's been experimenting with a radio.
And at that time, headline radio stations, Physics Laboratory, and second for a day, these
girls Walden I were offered is to provide some music for the radio, we were sorry that we
didn't have money enough to be able to continue this. But after a while, the station went
off the air and subsequently WCAO picked up the air and you get all the sort of thing that
we could do. But nails stayed for a while and then moved on. But among his students was
Arthur Nash, who spent a lifetime in service in science at Augsburg College. And he got his
beginning through the work with RB now. But to have science come into the curriculum at
this time, meant that we're really reaching out into different aspects of a current
curriculum. And beyond the idea that you're just educating men for the ministry, although
it might be a good thing for some of the men in the ministry to note something about
science. Following now, we had, I think, several other people in between, but then came
Mr. Fossey, who, during the poverty period at Augsburg was able to, to teach science in
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 10 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
such a way that he was the teacher of a number of people who've gone into research.
G
Gerda Mortensen 36:18
Among those who really admired and followed in his footsteps in research and studied
Margaret Hubbard, always paid tribute to Mr. Fosse. The hard, hard work was some very,
very difficult. And she became, went into the field of nursing. And then she for a number of
years was head of neurological Nursing at the best Institutes of Health. And now she is in
the huge department of the government. And she is a counselor to schools of nursing who
want to set up trainings programs for the education of training nurses for neurological
issues. She has a highest position in the government, she has a highest rank as an armed
forces person, of any of the women that have ever gone to Augsburg. She's on the
centennial commission. Then we during the war period, here we needed to have
somebody to come in to be in the field of chemistry. We had brought to America and
Estonian refugee by the name of Mar, Nevada, Audrey. He was also taking work at the
University of Minnesota to to learn the English and to learn to do some advanced work.
And it was going on for a master's degree program at the University of Minnesota and on
later toward a doctorate. But we needed the second man in the field. At that time, we
asked Mr. George Michaels news on the faculties University and asked him who he knew if
you could recommend somebody and he recommended the Mr. Stanley reminisce key. So
the one problem with Mr. reminisce key is that he is Catholic at this early period at
Augsburg nearly everybody I suppose Marian Lindemann as Mary Wilson was the first big
change in the policy of just hiring Lutheran people to teach this I had been told that Mr.
reminisced he went to his priest and asked his permission to accept his teaching position
at Augsburg College and his preset yes he could do that providing he didn't take part in
any of the religious kind of activities to which then responded that they have a policy that
you expected to go to chapel there and I if I cannot accept the position unless I can do
this. But you may go to chapel providing you're participating.
G
Gerda Mortensen 39:02
And Stanley Romanesque he was always at Chapel any encourage students. He
announced in his classes when Spiritual Emphasis Week was coming. And he met students
he said well don't do you're going the wrong way we are belong in Chapel at this point.
And Stanley reminisce key and Marvel agree with the two who had the chance to help
plan the present day chemistry laboratories and science Hall and having planned and
they had the opportunity and the heavy responsibility of moving wherever equipment
there was over to the site or setting up all those laboratories. And carrying by hand
quantities in quantities and quantities of these things that were required for this new
laboratory. In the field of English, there were still many people who were born in Norway,
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 11 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
who came to orgs. And with the advent of Reverend Peter a sphere again, came a new
day in the field of English. Here was a man I don't remember the date was in 19 1516. Under
15 I wonder if it wasn't about 1915 because Harold my brother spoke about him so often.
But here was a man who spoke perfect English. And he could in his English classes,
everybody had to have speeches, public speeches one day a week, and he would correct
these. And I recall after I came to Augsburg in 1923, that on one occasion Mr. reverent all
of Rodney was paying tribute to pa spag and saying thank you for all the patients you had
with us in pronouncing the SS. And the TH is well leafs virgin brand life bow.
G
Gerda Mortensen 41:01
And Bernard Helland. And many of these men paid very high tribute to the kind of insight
and the opening horizon that there was for the teaching of English which had changed so
remarkably, with the advent of swag and among his students who have since done
tremendous piece of work in our English department, I can mention and Peters news still is
there in this for many years acted as head of the English department, and Gerald Thorson,
who now is it to have college but who was head of the department at the impact of this
kind of thing. And the opening of horizons was very, very enriching to many of these
people. In the field of history, there was this man who sat at his desk in that one room and
was a registrar. And the registrar consisted of one man Professor HN Hendrix, new taught
history. But he was a perfect, groomed little gentleman, he taught Latin as well. There was
a hair never a hair out of place, he had a shoe brush that was in his desk. And when he
came into the office, he always looked just perfect. His grooming was his. He's singing, he
loved other kinds of things. He worked with people. But when students came in, he'd sit
down and talk with them and ask them where they had been, what courses it had, what
kinds of things they were like. And I can remember once when Omer Johnson came to
register, and he said his name was spelled OMER or OMAR and Professor Hendrickson
said, you are going to be a college educated man, you cannot have a name like that. You
that is a corruption of the name of Homer. So I'm going to read this to you as Homer
HOMER, Homer chance. That's a perfect name.
G
Gerda Mortensen 42:59
Well, among this student said he had was one Carl Chrislock, who today's head of the
history department, and he is doing a splendid piece of work in the field, and a writer, a
creative writer at present engaged in writing the history of Augsburg College, I also had a
chance to do some teaching in history. And when I had Carl Chrislock is a student in my
class--oh, I also had Paul Sonnack and Joel Torstenson and Irving whole and a number of
others who have distinguished themselves as students regardless of the teaching the had-but Carl Crisler did a term paper on the populist movement. And he is in right now being
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 12 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
published by the Minnesota State Historical Society a volume, which he has written about
the Minnesota which is headed impetus or the seed planted as far as that class in history
was concerned. Joel Torstenson and took the paper that he'd written a paper term paper
farming and large it for his master's degree thesis at the University of Minnesota. It was a
subject which had to deal with the Lutheran Church and slavery during the Civil War
period. He has been interested in negro rights and negro problems all his life. And I think
he gained some real deep insight as he did that preliminary work for me and then
followed up later at the University. In the Department of Christianity, of course, when I
came to Augsburg there was as dean of men, Mr. Professor Simon, lb, who was not only the
Dean of men, but he was the head of the religion department. And he was the head of the
Physical Education Department, a rare combination of a great big he man who could
relate to students and to the men students, who also knew all the little finances that he
could contribute in many ways. And he said, Well, if you really want to know good,
manage, just buy a book and read it and practice it.
G
Gerda Mortensen 45:13
I think that I was sort of PQ nation and wanted to deal with a little delicate, individual
things where he could see things in a big scope. I recall one time, the state Dean's women
asked us each to bring our dean of students along. And I was most proud of Mr. Melfi
because he could handle themselves very well with everybody that was there. And I can
remember we had a Unitarian pastor was speaking. And he took issue with some of the
things that he said, and they had a little lively discussion during the noon hour. And the
deans of women said to me afterwards, my Aren't you lucky to have a man like that to be
your dean. Then came data Christensen, to the faculty and both in the field of philosophy,
BN in the field of Christianity, who is a scholar, and who, in everything that he read and
thought and said, seemed to reflect this tremendous scope of scholarship. in this field of
higher education in the fields of religion, we had Paul select later, and Philip Quebec, both
of whom, who turned some outstanding kind of work in this field. They are the kind of men
that students say, we go to these classes, they take us help us orient our whole field of
knowledge and thinking, and they do not make up our minds for us, but they show us how
we can make up our own minds, and challenge us to do the right kind of thinking. I've had
students say that the most valuable class that they've ever had at college was of course,
either with Sonic or with this is a marvelous kind of thing. And it is a way in which one can
really do something. adapter Christensen, who was always interested in great ideas, he
was a student in the seminary when I first came to Augsburg, and I recall that he had
selected 12 students at school who were the the best intellectual students and these men
had in one evening men only evening, where they talked about ideas. But he's always
been a man who is like to talk about ideas. And in his early years as a faculty person in
evening school work, which he inaugurated, and had some special classes and evening
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 13 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
school, in deputation work wherever it was trying to get a few people together to talk
about ideas, not about people, not about things, but about ideas and how you can
implement ideas.
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:48
Of course, we had people who were characters like, and you love them for the warmth of
the person that they were. Dr. Image, I suppose, was one of these people who was a
teacher, German, who loved the German language, he looked as if he both need to be dry,
wet washed, his and his toupee needed to be dry, cleaned also, and brought down to wear
to a little gray of his hair, the fringe which hanged on black, but students who wanted to
really talk to somebody, I suppose Dr. Image did more informal counseling with students
than practically anybody else at school. And he had all kinds of love for people and
warmth. People took his class in German, because he was really a delightful person. Not
that they learned too much German characteristic would be first thing in the morning, he
would point to one of the girls and he said, Have you had breakfast yet? Shame on you,
you have to have breakfast before you came to class. Well, one never knew what was
going to come. I can remember one chapel talk to when he spoke to the chapel, students
and he said, this is a dangerous place. I repeat, this is a dangerous place. Students were
listening. Because one never knows what kind of challenge God is going to make you in
this dangerous place. But be ready for it. Then we had in the language department to
Marion Lindemann coming to teach in French. And an earlier record I've talked about
some of them are coming. But Marion was not a Lutheran. Marian was not a Scandinavian
background.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:36
Marian came representing liberal arts. She came came to teach French. Did you also
teach Spanish to begin with? French. We didn't have Spanish Spanish was later. Little
Latin sometimes to help Hendrickson? But Marian came from the University of Minnesota
via...France where she had spent a summer. I shall never forget that entrance at the
magnificent, beautiful woman made onto our campus and into our lives. And how she
could like simple little me, I don't know. But she represented scholarship, refinement,
culture, centuries of breeding, all this kind of thing. She brought into our society at
Augsburg a quality of life that was more American than we were. We were still very much
an immigrant people. And I think many of us reached out for this quality in our life. And
this kind of something. When it came to counseling students, she said give me those who
are the non Lutherans and those who are on the fringe benefit fringe of the community.
And truly many of these people came and and sought her out, but in their quiet way. And
then especially, I think, a very wonderful way in which she could talk, education with Dr.
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 14 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Sverdrup. This led to an influence that was exceedingly meaningful in the development of
the college curriculum. She didn't come to many of the social things we did, she didn't do
some other things. But she was a part of our academic community that had some very
high standards, and herself capable teacher who demonstrated how she could be a friend.
And students who took a class in French not only learn the language, but they learned to
love it, and some of the culture of that people. Not only of that people, but of the breadth
of the world of knowledge that Marion moved around and with such perfect ease.
G
Gerda Mortensen 52:00
To assist in this foreign language department later came Mimi Kingsley, a beautiful Latin
lady. Here we are fortunate at Augsburg at times, somebody comes to the University of
Minnesota and their spouse wants to do something in the field teaching. And so it was
with me kings layer has been as on the faculty at the University of Minnesota, where they
have a regulation that no two members of the same family should be teaching. At least
that was the rule then. And we inherited lovely Mimi Kingsley, who speaks two languages
perfectly without any accent at all. She is an American made amazing piece of work in
the field of Spanish. And again, she has these high standards of quality that she can
somehow impart to our students and the great expectations. Don't peter out. And Ruth
Schmidt, who is has earned her doctorate in Spanish is one of the prized pupils that she
has had. In the field of drama, it took a long time before we could have somebody but
after we had decided that drama was a legitimate part of it. We had a Lucy made
Bergman come. And we did some operators and we did some serious drama. And then we
had Miss Eileen Cole and Dr. Esther Olsen come until we have developed in the field of this
some of the ideas that are really strong in the field to trailer. Dean Corbett came in the
field of education and helped us establish a much better background in the community
and and has been representative and many state committees and then some national
committees in developing the educational program for our own state of Minnesota is
highly respected for his contributions here. Later as he became Dean of the College, Dr.
Henry Britain is came to be in the education department and did a singular kind of
organization and set up a practice teaching program. And all this was just excellent. And
the fruit of that work is still being felt music and effort XR to other integral parts of the
community.
G
Gerda Mortensen 54:30
Way back in 1923 we had just barely started to have intercollegiate basketball. And we
were admitted into the Minnesota conference of basketball. And I can recall the
excitement that there was when we loaded up all the students in buses and went down to
Central College to play our first intercollegiate basketball game. Every student at school
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 15 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and I think every faculty, I think we had five six charted buses and there was one adult
person on each one and lo and behold, didn't we win this game? And one of the
cheerleaders for Sandoval had been in the academy at Augsburg Reverend theater Hi
Mark to the Good Shepherd. And I can still see the incredible surprise when I discovered
the dog sprig. We live August know when from them. Subsequently we went into football
and I can remember that we also did some rather startling thing by winning from Chris
Davis Adolphus when we played football one time. But the development of this program
under the leadership of Simon LB was passed on to Deke pouts, I suppose it was who
came in, then he went into the war. And then we had James Peterson, who had a different
concept of what the whole field of education for leisure should do. And in this the
importance of the activity of the individual, instead of so much emphasis upon
intercollegiate athletics, he wanted us to think in terms of the intramural getting more
people out there actually participating, doing things, learning to do things with their
hands, learning other sports, so we added other sports to our program in our curriculum.
G
Gerda Mortensen 56:24
And then oh, in the interests of the building a sort of a good community spirit. He had
talked to Dr. Sverdrup, and with me about when the first beautiful spring day comes, let's
have a skip the and dismiss school and go on our walk along the Mississippi River are too
many Park. But it turned out to be a beautiful spring. And so each day, this particular
week, Monday, we met in that disparate IPS office. Is this the day Oh, it's a Friday day of
warps. No, let's wait to see what it's like tomorrow. So tomorrow came and it was a little
warmer and more nice sunshine and the grass getting greener in the bugs coming up and
the trees. No, let's wait one day more. So I think it was on a Wednesday, we decided this
was the day that we were going to have our first skipped a doctor. And doctor spiritual at
the close of the chapel service said to the students, it is very beautiful day today that the
faculty decided that it would be very fun to dismiss classes and everybody go out to the
park and have a very wonderful day. And the students couldn't believe their ears to what
they were hearing. And that is fair to say, well, we really amended Are you interested? And
then Jimmy Peterson got up to announce that we were going to form in lines in 15 minutes
in front of them right in the center of the campus. And we were going to march out. And
he had men made arrangements, we would have food and coffee and donuts out beyond
Lake st page where we would gather and then we would hike out too many. And they
would have all kinds of recreation. There. People could bring their baseball bats and they
could bring their badminton and they could have softball teams, they could go hiking,
they could do this and we would have a huge picnic separate. This was the first time and I
don't know who the other man was. But I think we have a film on this in the historical
library somewhere. [Note: search for "Augsburg Skip Day 1947" on YouTube]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 16 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:38
And I think Professors Sveggen was one of the two first men that lead this hike, they went
out this big and I hiked out those five miles many a year with those students and stayed
and played all time till the end of the day. We never separate and picked up and metal
and fam family people could grow home and get pick up their families and take them
along. But it built a tremendous bridge of warmth and friendliness. And trying to help
people to be creative in learn how to enjoy simple things and the outdoors. And to do
things just with each other, just just to be happy. So this was the way our skip days started.
Well, we added other kinds of sports, we had a very difficult time finding some physical
education for women. We go over and rented the gymnasium at Monroe school and the
girls wonder were there for Tim. And we have to get this is the bond Peterson and the
people who worked in physical education together in RJ have a separate tape recording
above this. But this is a part of some of the things that came and after Jim BP and left
then we had a Mr. Ernie Anderson coming back from the word service in between we had
the handsome Robert Carlson as there and we had Kelly Swanson, who worked with us in
the nr department who later went to St. Joe college, who's retiring this year incidentally
from sandwich. Then we had the field of music and Augsburg people had always been
known how to sing. I can recall when I first came to Augsburg, the faculty sat and chairs
on the platform in the chapel. There was something like two 300 students over 35 girls I
know from where I said I could always count quickly to see 35 if all my proteges were in
Chapel, but that first day as I sat down and the chair next to Bill me who's and Anna
monger and just I sat right below the bust of Professor Georg spared. And I could
remember as a child, when I lived in Minneapolis, I had gone to commencement with my
father and mother. And we sat in a second pew. And professors Phaedra came and sat
down in front of us before the service was to begin. And he turned to me and he said, Dr.
Davis, Dr. This is your daughter. Yes, this is Garrett. You're hoping to box up to be in may
get a sneak peek. I hope that you will grow up to be a good little girl. A good person.
G
Gerda Mortensen 61:35
So somehow this is geared the older spirit. And so this was in 1923 that had been in 1986.
So here I started felt as if the spirit of the man was reaching out to give me a little blessing
upon my work cited starting as a dean of women at this college. But the singing, these
students could sing, they love to sing. And there was of course a Glee Club going there
had been sextet, there had been quartets there had been gospel duels, there had been all
kinds of singing but singing was Integra later on in the year among the 35. Women some
came to me and said we should really start a girls good. So I went to Mr. upsets who had
come to be the teacher of music at that time and the director of the male choir or male
Glee Club. As until all 35 girls came with whatever boys or lack of boys, they had to just
demonstrate that they had this interest. So we practiced in this true upsets put us through
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 17 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
our paces. And we were getting ready after Christmas to prepare for a little concert tour.
In one of the girls came to me and she said Miss Morton's we've gotten this girls good club
started now. They call it the crowd. We've gotten it started. And some of us just simply
can't think and this is just awful agony for us. But we've done the cause, you know, can you
talk to Mr. Upset to single out now 20 people or the group that he thinks could be used for
this? So Jenny squirrels for who taught voice and I who is taking some voices from Jenny
and who could sing a little, we always traveled with this girls, the club called the crowd
club. And Mr. upsets played the cello. So we took his cello along, and the first year we
went out on a tour. Well it happened that the second year I was a dog spring, a broken
ankle, and I had to walk around in 25 with high shoes and and crutches for quite a while.
And the following year, I had to have surgery for gallbladder in January, and we're going
to start this tour in March. And that is very upset. Oh you have to go with the girls and
their first tour. We can't possibly let these girls go out alone without you with it. And it was
hard for me to carry even when one purse because in those days they operated from
Northeast southwest and we have 23 stitches I had been laid wide open. Well, after this I
just said yes, I'll go with them. But they girls carried my suitcase. They carried my
handbag and they gave me the best place we could halfway through the tour. We were in
doubt in Minnesota, the home of SG barely who was in the choir. She [recording cuts off]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 18 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
49:56
Speaker 1= Andrew Crowe
Speaker 2= David Crowe
Speaker 1
0:00
The following interview was conducted with David Crowe on behalf of Augsburg University for
the Augsburg during COVID oral history project took place on the second of April 2023 in
Eagan, Minnesota and will be stored in th... Show more
49:56
Speaker 1= Andrew Crowe
Speaker 2= David Crowe
Speaker 1
0:00
The following interview was conducted with David Crowe on behalf of Augsburg University for
the Augsburg during COVID oral history project took place on the second of April 2023 in
Eagan, Minnesota and will be stored in the Augsburg archives. The interviewer is Andrew
Crowe. So David, could you tell me a little bit about your background and education before you
got to Augsburg?
Speaker 2
0:23
I got my Bachelor of Arts degree in biochemistry at Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter,
Minnesota, in 1995. I moved from there to the University of Minnesota where I got my PhD in
neuroscience in 2001. Between 2001 and 2008, I did a combination of researching, research
and teaching at various times and various combinations over those years and then I was hired
by Augsburg College, which was what it was called at the time in 2008, into the biology
department.
Speaker 1
1:05
What has your experience been at Augsburg since you joined?
Speaker 2
1:11
I've been in the biology department since 2008. I primary primarily teach upper level biology
courses, neurobiology and physiology every year with a variety of other courses, intermixed
those courses and their lab components. Introductory bio honors, science, anatomy and
physiology in both types of introductory bio, special topics. So that's been my teaching, I
continue to do similar research to what I did. As a graduate student and as a postdoctoral fellow.
I still collaborate with Dr. Matt Chafee at the University of Minnesota on our research. So I
continue to be involved in research over the last three years. I've been the chair of the biology
department.
Speaker 1
2:05
Would you say you enjoy working in Augsburg?
Speaker 2
2:08
Yes, Augsburg is a great place to work. Great. I work with a great group of people in the biology
department. We have great students. It has been generally a pleasure. Yes.
Speaker 1
2:21
What made you want to be a professor.
Speaker 2
2:26
In college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I enjoyed science, I was a chemistry tutor.
And I kind of learned that I was good at helping students learn things I enjoyed teaching. So in
graduate school, and after graduate school, I took the opportunity to get teaching experience to
see if that would be something that I would want to do full time and it really clicked with me, I
enjoyed it a lot. And so I made it a goal of mine to teach at a place like Augsburg
Speaker 1
2:59
like to take us to early 2020. As the news of COVID-19 was spreading throughout the world.
Were you following the news that early?
Speaker 2
3:13
I was following it fairly closely. It seemed like something that had the potential to be very
serious. And what I did personally was find a bunch of scientists, experts in the field who were
speaking on social media, in particular on Twitter. And I started following a large number of what
I would consider some trustworthy experts. And from them, who were keeping track of
something that was inherently confusing and difficult to assess. I could at least keep up with
what the experts in the field were thinking at the time.
Speaker 1
3:59
So given that you were aware of the potential that this virus had to throw the world off course,
were you developing a plan for your classes, even before the school was officially shut down?
Speaker 2
4:11
The biology department I think was doing what I was we were following the situation fairly
closely. So I think we were thinking about it, maybe maybe before some other other people
were. But we really didn't even start thinking about it seriously until maybe a few weeks before
the classes did end up going online a few weeks before spring break probably late February, we
were starting to discuss contingency plans. Starting to discuss it at first, you know, with our more
vulnerable faculty members or our older faculty members be forced to come in. The first options
weren't just going online altogether, but maybe having some reduced presence on campus. So
we had a lot of different discussions about the potential things that we could end up doing,
generally focused initially on on the safety of the most vulnerable. But as the as the pandemic
pandemic seemed to be worse and worse, and I think as news out of New York started to show,
you know, hospitals being overwhelmed, I think it became clear that more than just keeping our
older faculty away was going to going to be necessary. Yeah, we were talking about it. Weeks, a
few weeks before, it was actually shut down. And we were keeping track of what other schools
were doing, as well.
Speaker 1
5:48
Okay. You said the older faculty members were more at risk? Was this? What was sort of the
feeling around campus? Were people taking it seriously, did they think it was going to be a big
thing, were the students not worried, were the people who were more at risk worried? Did you
have to convince people to be worried?
Speaker 2
6:11
Definitely, the older faculty members were the most paying the most attention to a generally, and
were the most worried as particularly if they had other kinds of health issues that make them
even more vulnerable. So not just within the biology department, but across campus, we did
hear from older faculty members that they were worried about it. Because I think certainly by the
late February, it was clear that this was a disease that affected people who are older, a lot more
than college student aged people. I remember at the time in my classes, the students didn't
seem to be concerned about it at all, were even a little bit mystified why why we would go online
or why classes might be canceled, or why even some faculty members would would not want to
come in. So I do think there was a in early March amongst the student population. I sense that
this was probably no big deal. I remember, there was a very famous graph shown on social
media from scientists became quite well known in terms of flattening the curve, the idea that if
cases peak really, really rapidly, they're going to overwhelm the, the countries or regions
capacity to help those people in hospitals. And we were seeing that in Italy. We saw that in New
York City, right, even in some places here in this country where the disease occurred so quickly.
As right. I was able to remind my students how exponential growth works. But yeah, the disease
take takes over so quickly that it can can overwhelm the capacity to treat people. And so I was
able to sort of show the students this idea of flattening the curve, the idea that perhaps the
same number of people will get it. But if there's a way to keep everybody from getting it all at
once, we can save many, many more lives that way. And so I used it as an opportunity to teach
students about various biological topics, in addition to actually explaining to them what the
nature of the threat was.
Speaker 1
8:39
Do you think that Augsburg took the threat of COVID as seriously as it should have in the
beginning? Do you think they move towards moving online classes at the right pace? What did
you think about the process to moving to fully online?
Speaker 2
8:57
I know, I remember that we were probably one of the last colleges to make that decision. I know,
faculty in the biology department had been paying attention to what other schools around the
country were doing. And we're a little dismayed that we weren't going online or suspending
classes for a week as quickly as some other places. On the other hand, I think the the disease
was peaking more in the northeast of the country. So cases hadn't started to go up here in
Minnesota by that time. But yeah, there was there were certainly people who thought we were
going too slow, if I remember right. We were or the administration was was listening very closely
to Minnesota State Health Department and kind of taking their cues from from that organization.
In addition to having the I think they had a COVID task force So I believe the, the head of
Augsburg physician assistant program, who is an expert in I think communicable diseases into
our public health was part of that decision making group as well. So I personally thought they
were being reasonable, but I do know that there were others that thought they were they could
have been a little bit more proactive.
Speaker 1
10:23
On March 16, Augsburg University announced that it would be moving to fully online classes
due to rising cases in the US and Minnesota. What were those last few weeks of the semester,
like when everything went online?
Speaker 2
10:40
So we, in the biology department, had been making plans for this. Even if it was just for a couple
of weeks, we had spring break, and I believe an extra week after spring break just off to help us
make that transition. One of the big things with the Biology Department, well for teaching was
how we how were we going to continue our labs? You know, these are sort of inherently hands
on experiences and and we had a lot of discussions about what we would do. For those, there
were there were some thoughts that maybe we would have, you know, some small number of
students come in, keep them distanced and still try to do some on or in person, lab work. I think
we ultimately decided against that, given what, what we learned over the next couple of weeks
about the nature of the disease and things. So we were throwing ideas around, I think,
ultimately, what we ended up doing was was doing a lot of biological simulations, it was, of
course, a very good opportunity to do disease transmission simulations. And so we did a lot of
that type of thing. I personally was teaching neurobiology, for which the labs are very technical.
And I was able to find some online replacements for the types of experiments we did, but
ultimately found them to be pretty lightweight and not not engaging in either intellectually or in a
technical or practical way. The other thing that biology department had to think about, and I
wasn't chair at this time, but we were all part of these discussions was we have a greenhouse
filled with living organisms and marine aquariums. Both of which need constant work, literally,
like literally every day. There's need to be maintained, those need to be plants need to be
watered. Fish needs to be fed. filters need to be changed. So we had to think about how we
were going to make sure that our facilities our living organisms, were going to survive over the
course of however long we were out.
Speaker 1
13:17
Did they have someone come in? I'm assuming and take care of those?
Speaker 2
13:20
literally. Leon Vanek our botanist, came in and made sure the plants lived and Bill Catman runs
the marine aquariums would come in every day, they would just have to make sure no one else
was around and time so that they could do it in isolation. But
Speaker 1
13:46
yeah, so you were Chair of the Academic Affairs Committee in the spring of 2020. Could you
describe a little bit about what the Academic Affairs Committee normally does, and then what it
had to do during the shutdown?
Speaker 2
14:02
So the Academic Affairs Committee is the Committee on campus that approves any changes to
the academic program. And that can be anything from a description of a course or the title
change of a course even to approving new courses to approving new majors. During that spring
we had been having and actually the entire school year, we had just wrapped up a campus wide
look at a proposed general education plan that would would change all of our liberal arts
foundations and things and, and so I the maybe the week or a week or two before the pandemic
hit, I gave a presentation at a faculty meeting giving the Academic Affairs response to the
proposal. We No voted it voted no overall on it. So that kind of thing changes the academic plan,
changes in grading systems. The other thing that we were doing in this case, fortuitously, during
that academic year, as one of the things I wanted to make happen was a committee of
technological, if not specialists, but some group on campus. To take a look strategically at how
we use technology would vary specifically, with regards to teaching courses online. Again, this
was all before the pandemic hit we, we had a sort of an ad hoc decision making structure for
accepting courses to be taught online. And I thought it would be useful to have a sort of a
broader discussion about where the college university goes, in terms of how we offer things
online, as it was, we could have probably just accepted piecemeal courses to be taught online,
then all of a sudden, you know, when Augsburg student could potentially get an entire major
online, right without ever visiting campus. And so I thought it was important that we had sort of a
more strategic discussion about where we were going with that. It turned out that that group of
people that we had gotten together on with us now the technical TEL area, it's all I remember
technology and technology enhanced learning committee, maybe I should probably know the
name of that those people became a huge boon to the campus because they could get together
as a group and start helping the campus together, prepare for online learning. And so it was
nice to have them all together at the same time. So that was kind of fortuitous that they were
already meeting and talking about technology.
Speaker 1
17:03
What specific challenges did you face on that committee? After it went online?
Speaker 2
17:11
We've almost entirely had to drop our normal slate of proposals to begin dealing with changes to
the academic proposal, the academic program necessitated by the pandemic, one of the first
things that we did was see proposals from various places on campus. Student Success Office
run by Katie Bishop, putting in proposals that we're going to help students through what was
going to obviously be a stressful time. And so one of the first things that we did was, I believe,
pass a proposal that allowed students to opt to take a course pass fail, and not have it count
towards the limit of of Pass Fail courses, the, you're allowed to typically have, I believe, we also
let them choose whether they would get pass fail at the end of the semester, once they saw
their grade. So some very specific proposals came in very early, trying to cope with the fact that
that, right, this was going to be difficult for everybody. We also heard from Student Government,
and so the student government was a strong voice for the students. And it really impressed on
us how stressful this was for the students. Once we were in our zoom classes, it was it was hard
to interface with the students and sort of in a personal way, right. And it was much, much harder
to get their feedback. So it was really, really useful to have student government come to AC and
explained that students were really stressed out about it. They have some very specific
proposals for how they thought classes should be should be graded. The Academic Affairs
Committee discussed those specific proposals, we sent them on to the Faculty Senate, in our
group that would be looking at something like that. And we took them very seriously. And
ultimately, what we did is we came up with a number of policies that we thought would be fair,
but also make sure that we were still doing our job educating students, we need to make sure
that we are still maintaining our accreditation. Giving every student today is not something that
the accreditors would generally see as fulfilling our educational mission. We looked at what
other students other schools were doing, and we tried to just just do what we thought was was
best in terms of the academic mission of the college but also understanding that this was an
unprecedented moment for both faculty and students. In addition to some of the formal policy
changes that we signed off on, we also wanted to I think this was one of the main things in
response to the student concerns is that we wanted to let the faculty across campus know, what
the students were thinking without having them write, interact. So we were sort of a conduit for
the students concerns. And so we put out a statement that essentially said, you know, this is
new territory for us, all students are, you know, never signed up for online courses, you know,
they never signed up for any of this, a lot of them are going to be in really challenging home
situations, dealing with financial stresses and potentially right COVID At home. And so we sort
of strongly recommended that, that faculty deal with students in a way that was ultimately, you
know, compassionate. That was, that was the sort of thing we wanted to stress, we had some
specific recommendations about extending deadlines and, and other other things grading on
curves. If you don't normally do that. You We can't tell faculty what to do. That's, you know, a
strong pillar of, of an academic institution is academic freedom, right? We are given the
freedom, and there's responsibility to treat the teach our classes as we think is best. And so
anytime that that you want to get all the faculty to do something together, it can be difficult. And
so knowing that, like not every faculty member will be on board with everything, we felt like we
excuse me, we felt like a strong plea to the faculty that we we put on the website, and it was
sent out sort of daily in the Augsburg mail that goes out every day, we sent that out a number of
times, just a request that faculty treat students with compassion. And we all treat each other
with compassion as well. And understand that this is difficult for everybody. So I think I think
ultimately, I think ultimately, that is actually what happened.
Speaker 1
22:33
What plans were made in the summer of 2020. Regarding the upcoming school year, did they
ever consider a hybrid model? A hybrid model, like the ones that high schools in the state were
using? Or were they set from the beginning on fully online?
Speaker 2
22:50
No, there was a lot of discussion. In that summer, about what the school was going to do, I
remember filling out a survey that asked about what I, you know, got my opinion on it. I
remember being mildly offended when it seemed like it was worded as if I were not fulfilling my
duty if I wasn't coming in and teaching classes online. And I know, again, some of our older
faculty members were not entirely pleased by the the implied suggestion that if they weren't
doing coming in the they were letting everybody down. So I remember early on in the in the
summer, there was a lot of uncertainty. But I believe at some point in time, maybe mid June, I
don't remember remember the timeline. But at some point in time, there was a realization that
the fall for sure was going to be online. And that probably spring is as well. And so throughout
the entire summer, from the moment I became chair, on May 1, we as a biology department
would have regular meetings, essentially discussing what we were going to do with both our
curriculum. We have a lot of lab classes and we have a lot of things we want our students to
learn before they move on. But also how we were going to approach our individual courses you
know, in the fall, sorry, in the spring I don't believe many of us were familiar with or had the the
option to jump on on Zoom and use them for our classes. So in general, we all move to a sort of
asynchronous online format in the in the for the last few weeks of spring. But we started
becoming more familiar with Zoom, all of our meetings, of course, were held over zoom, we all
got a lot more familiar and if not happy with it, at least used to using it and so we We felt like we
were going to be able to deliver our courses, or at least the lecture portions of our courses over
zoom. Any port in the storm, I guess, right, it's nice. We no one thought it was going to be
optimal. But we talked a lot about how to do it as best we could. And we all help each other out.
We all helped plan the introductory courses, which are kind of the most important courses for
our students coming in. We needed to decide what those students what experience they would
get as first year college students coming in. And if it were going to be online, how to give them
the best, the best learning opportunity that they could. In terms of labs, we did decide that we
were going to try to do a lot of simulations for the introductory courses. A lot of what they learn
is, can be can be simulated, but we knew that they were going to be lacking a lot of hands on
technical skills. For sophomore level classes, we had to cancel our cell biology lab, which is one
of the places where they learn a lot of techniques that they will use throughout the course of the
rest of their career at Augsburg as biology majors. So we had to make some contingency plans
for that. We knew that sophomore level genetics course could have quite a bit of online
component. There's a lot of things you can do with online genetic databases. And so we were
as a as a group planning some of our what we call our course, core courses, first year biology
courses, and then our sophomore level courses, all all bio students have to take those. So as a
group, we worked together on those. And then we just discussed amongst ourselves, you know,
the things that we were planning on doing for our own upper level courses. So we worked quite
a bit together during that summer, in preparation,
Speaker 1
27:04
you mentioned you became department chair that may Could you tell me a little bit about what
that entails?
Speaker 2
27:12
Yes, to some extent, I could never give you a complete description of all of the things that the
department chair does. The department chair essentially is the administrator for the
departments pays attention to course schedules hires adjuncts, who are part time faculty that
need to take teach classes that we don't have full time faculty to teach. The chair deals with the
budget, which was a completely up ended during the COVID years. The chair deals with any
questions that students have of the department, it could be complaints, or it could be questions
about the schedules. The chair organizes departmental meetings and works with the faculty on
things that the department was working on. Before the pandemic, the biology department had
big plans to begin working on developing a new curriculum for our first year and potentially
second year courses. That was one of the things that we had planned and that the pandemic
disrupted, we were also going to undergo what's called program review. So every so often,
every department has to undergo an external review by external reviewers. And we were
planning on doing that as well that got up to up ended by the pandemic. In biology, there's a lot
of management of the lab spaces. We have a lab manager that helps out with that as well, but
keeping track of the use of the labs as well. I'm sure there are lots of things I'm missing. I'm very,
very busy as department chair
Speaker 1
29:14
That sounds like a lot of work.
Speaker 2
29:17
Basically anything that comes up and so it's always you know, it's always something different.
Speaker 1
29:23
Yeah. You kind of touched on it a little earlier. But what were some of the difficulties in the 2020
2021 school year, the first full year of the pandemic.
Speaker 2
29:38
We can discuss that unless you wanted to discuss teaching during the
Speaker 1
29:45
Oh yeah, I mean, what were some difficulties with teaching during that year?
Speaker 2
29:49
I forgot what year was which. This is the this is the online year yeah. So as as much as we can
worked together and prepared. And as much as we continued as a biology department to work,
talk with each other about how things were going, it was still still fairly difficult. We were all doing
this for the first time. Like I said, the there were a lot of useful resources developed by the
technology committee that were available to us, we made full use of all of those. All that I
believe one of our classes in biology was taught synchronously, online. And we thought that was
important, we thought that having that the back and forth having students be present, if even if a
resume was important, so almost all of our classes were done synchronously using Zoom. I
think here, my personal recollection is probably the most the most useful be the first semester,
one of the courses I was teaching was animal physiology. I had for many years prior to the
pandemic, wanted to flip the classroom teaching technique by which students sort of learned the
basics before coming to class. And then we use the class time to have discussions and things
and, and I had tried that with getting the students to do reading before class, but I was never
really able to, I think be strict enough to enforce it, just because it's easier for the students and
easier for me not to have done it. So the pandemic, actually in the the fact that everything was
going to be on a computer, allowed me to, to actually flip the classroom. And to do that I did one
of the other strategies, which is to record a video lecture. And so my goal was to have a video
lecture pre recorded for every class period. And then we would use the class period, for
discussion for problems for q&a. Any number of different ways that we could make use of that
time? That wasn't just me. Right? lecturing, they could watch that beforehand. And then we
could use the zoom time. Better, I would have Google documents were students who had been
randomly assigned into groups could get together and write out answers on a active as a
Google slide because they could draw pictures, but they'd write out answers to study questions
or to discussion questions. And then they would go into zoom groups together and do that. And
then we often meet at the end of class together and discuss everybody's answers. So you know,
that's the, that's the dream is that they'd all get together and discuss the questions and we could
talk about it. In reality, a lot of students, you know, logged in, but probably never contributed to
discussions, I think, you know, there are a lot of discretion interactions where people are, I didn't
force anybody to have their camera on, I think, you know, that was something actually, and we
discussed in a sea that we, you know, we couldn't enforce that there are a lot of reasons to not
enforce students having their camera on even though I, I, I valued every one of my four or five
students that regularly had their, their cameras on and it was always good to have a core group
of students that and this is true of any class, but that is engaged in and can keep discussions
going and, and helping other students. And it's, it's fairly hard to, to get responses from a black
square on a screen. And so, we did the best we could and and you know, that was those were
the general class periods for assessment of the lecture lecture portion of my class. I essentially.
So I normally have weekly quizzes instead of tests and they're, you know, sheets of paper, pen
and paper. I didn't feel like I could have weekly assessments. So instead, when sort of two or
more traditional three or four tests, the tests, I know, a lot of faculty across the country, we're
making use of really, what I would consider heinous spyware, or the surveillance states kind of
have programs that would track students eye movements and force them to look at the screen.
And I didn't want any part of that. And I don't think any, anyone in our no one in our department
did, although we did have one faculty member who literally sent his his test out via the mail, in
sheets of paper to the to the students. But what I did is I made online tests, and I allowed
students free access to their notes, to my videos to the book to the vast store of knowledge that
is the internet in order to answer the questions. And so, you know, we had given that I had to
change a little bit of how I, you know, construct an assessment, typically, if they have to sort of
have everything sort of, at their fingertips without being able to look it up, I have to ask a range
of different types of questions. Ideally, in an upper level biology student, right, all my students
are able to really understand what they're learning and so that they can, they can not only
explain it, but they can use that information to make new inferences to predict what would
happen, right, I can ask what if questions, but, but if I only ask those kinds of questions in class
and a normal class, right, only the A students will, will do well, so I generally need to ask a
range of questions, sort of that, right, the students that just kind of want to memorize some
things and learn things at a surface level can at least, you know, make sure that they pass the
class. But online, we're all the information is just there at their fingertips, I was, I was able to, I
guess, have have tests that were almost entirely, you know, deeper levels of understanding.
Here's what you know, I can even say, here's what we know about, you know, this aspect of
physiology, given that, right, and these other things that you've learned, you know, what would
happen if if the animal did this or was in this environment? So I could ask more questions like
that. And so I would, I learned a lot of what to do and what not to do and ask, ask or any tests
like that. But it was definitely a change. And I didn't want to enforce any kind of surveillance
state. Observations, I figured I would just let them have access to all the information that they
wanted. So that was how the lecture part of my class went. Biological classes have labs
associated with them, it's really, really an important aspect of our students education, and we
were not able to have them in person that year. So for physiology in the fall, what I thought I
could do that would be beneficial to our students was help our students learn some basic
computer programming and data analysis. Those are two things that I do in my research. And
they are things that I teach my summer research students to do when I when I had when I
mentor students, both, I guess, both over the summer and over the school year. And the way I
set it up is I had students learning from an online a free online computer programming source.
And then I had a number of of exercises that they would do. And each lab is four hours. So I
would just sort of hold a four hour session where I would give some some lessons and basic
background in the first half an hour or so. And then the rest of the time the students would be
able to work and I would just be available via zoom. In my experience, computer programming
is quite difficult for a lot of students. And, you know, I'm kind of trying to teach them maybe a
whole semesters worth of computer programming just over the course of, of, of a lab you know,
15 weeks but but have a lab and I didn't want to make it a you know, an entire computer science
course it's labs or one credit. And none of the students of course, when they registered for
physiology in the spring, they were thought they were registering for regular physiology with
their the fun in person labs that we normally have. So knowing that students did not sign up to
do computer programming. I didn't quite make it optional, but I did understand that not every
student was going to was going to click with it. And so I was as long as they were making an
honest effort to do the work. You know, I got an A a small handful Have students really, really did
really, really well. One of the things that happens when I teach students programming is that
sometimes they learned that they really are good at and they love it, and they want to keep
doing it. And so a couple of those students became my summer research students. Another
one, use computer programming and his other research program that summer with a different
professor was now able to, to do some more advanced analysis. So it helped, I think, a number
of students and it didn't, it didn't hinder students that really didn't sign up for the next semester
with neurobiology, I could not justify an online lab, there was just I just could not think of a way
that was not a waste of everybody's time to do the kinds of things that that I thought are
valuable, I think are valuable in a neurobiology lab. So I just canceled it, was one of the few labs
that actually got canceled, but that and cell biology, we just didn't feel like we could do them
justice.
Speaker 1
41:03
So the summer after that year, Augsburg was looking into how they were going to bring people
back to campus. And there was a bit of a debate around whether or not they would be requiring
vaccines or not. And there were some rumors throughout the summer that they would not be
requiring vaccine cards. Obviously, in the end, they did but if you could tell me a little bit about
how you thought that process went, whether you thought they should require vaccine cards or
not, and just where you stood on the whole thing.
Speaker 2
41:38
Well, the entire biology department, as people who know about diseases and basic biology,
could not have been more in favor of requiring vaccines. Literally one of the most positive
benefits to humanity that had ever been ever been discovered. and the vaccine that we knew
was out for COVID had was better than I think anyone could have ever imagined it was going to
be. Some of the experts were saying that if it had a 50% success rate, that it would least be
something and it would be a benefit. And it turned out that its ability to cut down on on on the
worst aspects of the disease was 90-95%. And so it was it was extremely, extremely good news
to have that vaccine. And yeah, we were all in obvious agreement that the college would be
best off to require it. I think by that time, we all knew that college students really were not
particularly at risk from this disease, you know, there's a risk to everybody. But we were really
concerned about the most vulnerable, both on campus and off, right, this is a, you know,
communicable diseases aren't, you know, just something that a single person gets, and that's
where it stays. And so, we've thought it was really, really important that our students be
vaccinated, not just for all of our faculty members, including some that are older, others that are
immunocompromised, or both. But we also have students in that in that in those positions, but
also, you know, for students, families, for their parents or their grandparents, and honestly, you
know, for society in general. Having a high vaccination level is important. It's it's a, it's a societal
good, and the biology department felt very strongly about it. So we were worried when we heard
rumors that, you know, there would be no requirements at all. And ultimately, they came up with
a requirement that wasn't really a requirement. And it probably could have been stronger and if
it were stronger, it's probably a fact that there would be students that have parents or
grandparents now that that didn't, or that don't because of that policy. Seems likely.
Speaker 1
44:23
Well, yeah, as you said in the end, they did go with a semi requirement for the vaccines umm,
going into the 2021 22 school year. Could you give me a quick summary of that year as
everything was finally brought back in person?
Speaker 2
44:40
So we were all ready and excited to get back in person. Masks were required and is sort of
relatively annoying as they are generally people didn't have a problem with them and teaching
with one isn't optimal, you have to talk a little bit slower, a little bit more louder, and it hurts the
throat a little bit more to have to make your voice carry yet even more. But honestly, the the
masks and the the, you know, the things having to do with the keeping the pandemic from
spreading weren't the main thing I remember from that time, it is just how. how difficult it was for
students in general. After having a year of online teaching where everyone was kind of trying to
do their best, students weren't as prepared, right, they just had not been educated as well,
right? Because we were all trying something for the first time both faculty and students. And so
we ended up making as a faculty, certainly in the biology department, a lot of sort of extending a
lot of the sort of treating students with extra compassion, we ended up extending more
deadlines, we extended, you know, just we we found that just to keep the students with us, we
had to, to back off on a lot of things that we would normally do. And students still struggled. And,
you know, interestingly enough, I think we probably went too far in removing a lot of the
structure that the students actually benefit from I know, I've talked with people whose whose job
it is to help students who need accommodations, people in the class office, for example, and,
and they sort of uniformly say, yeah, you actually have to have, you can't remove all this
structure. And we thought, I think, you know, we were we were helping them by removing a lot
of the structure. But I think ultimately, it hurt. And so we learned when we move on. But it was it
was a difficult year, both for students and faculty coming back from from a year of online
teaching.
Speaker 1
47:18
And last question here, What would you say are some of the lasting effects of and you kind of
just touched on it there COVID In general, and some of the policies and ways of teaching that
had to be developed, because of COVID.
Speaker 2
47:35
I think there have been a lot of effects in terms of ways of teaching. I can now. In fact, I did this
two days ago, you turn on Zoom, for students that are sick at home, we don't want students who
are sick to come in, right. It's one of the things we have learned. And so if a student can come
into my class and hear the discussions via zoom, that's potentially a good thing I do. You know, I
made zoom an option last year, and I think too many students took it as an option. And it turned
out right that the students that mostly attended, and making air quotes for that right via zoom
didn't do as well as the students that showed up in person. So it's a balancing act that I think
we're going to have to deal with. But it gives us more flexibility. Without the new technologies
that we've we've learned, I think students are, are still showing the effects of not getting the
background education that they normally would have. The sciences tend to be very sort of
pyramid structures, where students really do have to learn things in order, we have a lot of
prerequisites, we have a lot of biology and chemistry that students need to learn before they can
start learning about other things. And, and students who missed out on the best education for
that, I think, continue to struggle a little bit. But I think in general, and this is probably society
wide. And this is just an observation. It's I'm not sure it's now certainly seems to be true. But as
of now, here in what year is it? 2023. Yep, thank you. In the spring of 2023, people in general,
and this seems to be faculty I talked to and students I talked to everyone is just very, very
burned out very tired, exhausted. And I think it's just a hangover from everything that we as
learn as as learners, as teachers as a society went through over the last couple of years. That's
just the there seems to be a general thing.
Speaker 1
49:49
Well, thank you very much for your time. You've provided some excellent insight. Yeah, thank
you.
Show less
Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities... Show more
Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Barbara Sabino Pina
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in
higher education. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm an assistant professor of nursing. Could you
please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:22
My name is Barbara Sabino Pina, I use her pronouns, and I am a third year at Augsburg
University, studying biochemistry with a minor in leadership studies.
Katie Clark 00:35
Great. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:45
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:46
Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
I would graduate hopefully in a year. So in spring of 2023.
Katie Clark 00:57
Great. And so can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? You mentioned
your majors, so kind of what you're currently studying, and maybe what you hope to do when
you graduate.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 01:13
I was born in Venezuela. So my first years of school having my native country in Venezuela. I
graduated actually from high school there. But because the education system works differently
in my country then here. I had to go through another year of high school here. So I graduated
from Burnsville High School, after doing basically my last year here, and I decided to attend
Augsburg University. I am currently a third year I'm studying biochemistry. And I also have a
minor in leadership studies. And what I hope to do with this is that I, since I was really young I
always enjoy medicine, and like, the biomedical field. So even though, you know, things can
change, and my decisions also can change with time, at the moment, I want to be a physician
scientist. So my plans are to apply for medical school on next cycle. And I mean, like, the cycle
of 2023. So I hope what I want to do with this is that I really enjoy working on a lab. And I really
enjoy going through the whole answer the question and tried to solve a problem with the
research that is done. But I also like the patient interactions. I also like to talk with people, you
know, having interactions with them, talking with them, understanding what's going on, what's
the problem? Or how, in which ways can I use my, my skills or anything that I know to help
them? And how can they also like, I can learn from them, and develop as well as an individual.
So I think so far, that's the plan.
Katie Clark 03:17
Being in the medical world myself, I think that that is much needed. So I'm excited to hear that.
So just thinking about your time at Augsburg have the concepts of the citizen, professional,
civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills been discussed in your classes or programs
that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 03:41
I would say a couple of them, not necessarily in my classes, because as I mentioned, I am
biochemistry major. So a lot of times wouldn't really like we wouldn't mention those things, but
because of my minor and because I decided to do a Leadership Studies minor. When I took LST
296,that was student development, leadership class, I did talk a little bit about what it means to
be like a citizen and like what it means to have like different intersectionalities of identities.
And so we kind of like talk a little bit of that, in the surface, I wouldn't be able to say that I like
an expert, or like I understand completely the concepts. But I also have to say that I am part of
the LEAD Fellows Program here at Augsburg. And so through that I did learn more about civic
civic engagement and basically how to, like connect with the expert community, but also with
the community around Augsburg. And basically what it means to like a create community and
how to engage and how to organize, mobilize people. I think I did have a little bit of connection
through that, but it's probably because of the decision that I made to get involved in the
program that I decided to be part of. So yeah, That's kind of what I would say.
Katie Clark 05:02
So what experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities, and you kind of answered this, but
maybe ask it again and see if anything else comes up, to learn, reflect and integrate lessons
across coursework and community engaged learning.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 05:19
As I mentioned, yes, I mentioned a couple of those activities. I also would add, when I was a
first year, I applied to be part of the Emerging Leaders Program here at Augsburg University. I
think that was one of the best decisions that I made at the beginning, because I learned a lot
about myself in that class. But I also got to meet a lot of people that kind of like I continued to
have relationships with, through all these three years that I've been at Augsburg. And that
connected me with all their staff members, when they actually one person that I met through
the Emerging Leaders Program connected me with LaToya, which is basically the director
manager for the LEAD Fellows that that's how I ended up applying for it. So I think the
Emerging Leaders Programs was like the first door that I got to be like, the first that I enter, to
get through all my other leadership opportunities are after that, I got to be an orientation
leader, and then an AugSem leader, and then I got other positions that are expert, like student
program assistant, and eventually the LEAD intern position. So I would say those are kind of
like really meaningful positions that I had that so far.
Katie Clark 06:33
So I guess for me, I'm wondering like being in the biology, or they might refer to STEM courses,
is there a way that could that you envision things like civic engagement or civic skills could
better be weaved in that curriculum?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 06:51
Even though I don't have a specific answer for that, in terms of like ideas, or how to do it, I
think we should try to find ways to do it. I think the STEM fields are really wonderful. And I
wouldn't be a STEM, if I didn't enjoy it, or I didn't like what I'm doing. I really enjoy it. I really
like it. But sometimes I wish there were more ways to connect it with the real world, not just on
that on a textbook, or just based on what it's supposed to be for the exam. But a little bit more
like, again, teaching to this because this is helpful for you and just in your career. But let's see
how we can use this information to create things that can help the environment for example,
like biology majors, they know a lot about, like, they take a lot of environmental causes, like
how can we use this concept to actually create something better for more sustainable for on
campus, or more sustainable for the whole community at Augsburg? Oh, I think like probably
like, what I try to say is more like, I would love it to be more applicable. Or like would there
would be like some type of project instead of an exam. And then you have to the project to
basically find a way to use this concepts outside of the classroom, or something like that. That
kind of like would bring all the critical thinking skills for the students. And also, it would be more
engaging and more enjoyable. I think.
Katie Clark 08:14
Thank you for that. So in what ways has civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepared you to
think about your professional role or civic leadership? Whether it's currently or when you move
on to med school and into your chosen profession?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:32
I'm just to make sure I understand the question Is it like how has Augsburg prepared me more
like in my career field basically?
Katie Clark 08:40
Yeah. So do you see some of those civic learning experiences prepare you as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:47
Yes, I believe so. I think more than what I have learned in the like my major itself, it's more of
the things I'm getting involved with like in organizations all those positions that I got through
the years, my current position as a LEAD fellow or LEAD intern. I think all those positions
prepare me more in the aspects of yeah, my classes did a lot of the work on like knowledge,
like okay, I know how to have this lab skills, for example, but my leadership opportunities help
me to okay, how do I express my ideas? I have all this knowledge, but how do I actually send it
to people in a way that they can understand? How can I have a conversation with someone that
looks different? Someone that has a different background, different ethnicity? How can I have
conversations with people have different experiences than me? How to be comfortable being
uncomfortable? You know, like, like having uncomfortable conversations or things that aren't
usually talked about, um, how do we prepare for an interview even for things like that, just like
how to talk how to express correctly my skills to say what I want to say? Just all those kinds of
things that might seem like, I don't know, little or little things that are still important, and that
can tell a lot of your character and your personality, I think I learned a lot outside of the
classroom. And through those leadership positions. Of course, I made a lot of mistakes on the
way, like for sure, at the beginning, I would be thinking so much just to say the same sentence,
or I would freak out in front of people, because I just, you know, public speaking can be nerve
racking sometimes. But because I keep continue doing it and putting myself on those, you
know, positions that kind of helped me to feel more comfortable and end up applying for more
and wanting to do more. And at the end, I kind of found what I wanted to do, you know, even
when, because I decided, for example, to be part of research my first year, probably wouldn't
even know that I want to be a physician scientist. So I think like getting out there and get out of
my comfort zone, through this leadership positions helped me a lot to discover me as myself,
as a person.
Katie Clark 11:08
Just sounds like you just, it's who you are, that's really brought me down this path. And that's
so beautiful. Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement
experience to affect your decision making or be an agent of change as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:25
I would say yes, my first years at Augburg, I learned through those like civic engagement
positions, like an orientation leader and AugSem leader. As part of campus life a student
program assistant, I learned a lot of like different communities and about the Augsburg
community and outside of Augburg as well. And after a while, not just in those positions, I got
to use those skills. But after I wanted to do something that had to do more with my career that
is medicine, I ended up applying for a direct care professional position. And I believe that one of
the reasons why I got this position was because I was able to show through work, the work that
I did the past that I was able to work with people and do what it's needed to do for the decision.
And so I believe that everything that I've learned so far has made me like a capable student
and a capable just professional in general, to perform the tasks that I should be doing like for
the physicians for the my career path that I've chosen. Because my the medicine even though
it has to do a lot with people think of science, you know, everything just science, and you're
supposed to learn so many things you study and study, study, don't get out. A lot of it is people
interaction, you know, like, understanding how to, like, understand what's going on in the body
and like, understand how you can talk with your patient or how to understand what's going on
in their families. Because sometimes, ah, a lot of the things that happen, they will be like, did
you do this? And they're like, No, I didn't, but then you like, ask another person is like, no,
actually, they did. And I think that kind of trust comes from, if you actually show yourself your
humanity. And like, with honesty, and they are capable to think like, okay, I can trust my
doctor, you know, instead of this person that just gonna knock on me and say things is like, oh,
no, this person is actually trying to do something good for me. Um, so I think I don't know, I feel
like in general, all the positions that I have so far, and a couple of things I've mentioned, they
have prepared me to be a better professional in the future.
Katie Clark 13:53
Well, it sounds like you're very relational, too, which is so important to some of these concepts
and practice too. So this question is one that's a little dense. So let me say so what connections
if any, do you see among professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 14:18
Actually, I think that's a really good question. It's kind of interesting, because through my
through the summer, before my third year, I had this moment in which I didn't I was like,
wondering, like, what do I want to do with my life because I have all these things that I enjoy.
But I thought I have to pick one thing. I cannot just if I'm a leader, I cannot be a doctor and I'm
a doctor, I can't you know, I because we have a lot of stereotypes, that when you do
something, you only can do that. And I think during in that summer, I just took a lot of time for
myself and reflect on everything I've done so far. And what do I want to do? And like, what
makes me happy? Like, what do I enjoy doing, because I want to continue doing that, that I
enjoy. And I think it's, I was really grateful to understand and notice that in my professional
career, I want to be a physician scientist, right? So I want to be hired in a lab, I want to be able
to get all these questions, answer I want to be able to, you know, provide something in the
future that would help to an invention, or some type of technology that would improve
someone else's health. And then on my vocation, I noticed that I love teaching, for example, I
actually really enjoy talking with other people about the knowledge that I have are acquired,
because I think so many things are just so cool. And I'm like, I want to share it. So I noticed that
I love teaching, I love talking, I love communicating. There's this other side of it, that I'm can
can connect, even though I didn't notice before, like it actually can connect to my profession.
And then the civic engagement part portion of it. Personally, I am really passionate about a
specific community, which are the undocumented students and DACA because I am an
immigrant. So as an immigrant, I did I face a moment in which I also was undocumented, and I
faced a lot of challenges. And it was hard, especially as a student, because I wanted to have a
future, but I didn't know how to, without, you know, any type of documents that can help me to
apply for things. And so that saved that that first connection to civic engagement through my
own struggle help me to be like, think of, I actually want to do something in the future that
helped me to help others, not just like, not something that has my own self interest, you know,
and that can help others in the process. And even though these three things might seem like,
let's think about triangle or something, or they might see, like, so far away from each other,
they actually I feel like they connect, because I can still continue doing my work as a physician
scientist, and probably create some type of, I don't know, foundation in the future to help future
doctors that are actually undocumented. Right. Daca in the same way, oh, this process needs
me to communicate with people need me to do research about people like searching for people
that are interested in helping me in this specific issue. Um, and I still, like I have, can have
conversations, I can teach others and others can teach me in the process. So I personally feel
like I don't I all of them relate in a way and I'm grateful that I know I'm capable of noticing that
and that I'm because I think that's what's gonna guide me eventually to a better like, a better
and happy life, doing what I enjoy to do. So I hope that answer the question, I'm not sure if it.
Katie Clark 18:12
It completely does. And I would think as you enter into these systems to you might see yourself
thinking about how to change the systems within which you very much spoke to as well. So
wonderful. Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that
specific term? So if so, how would you describe that? Or explain it to others? If you see yourself
as a civic or citizen professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:44
I would say yes, more in the working kind of like still becoming, you know, like trained, I think
we can always improve. But I would say yes, because at least for me, what it means is that I am
a leader, that it's trying to create some type of change, that it's going to help others to succeed
in anything that it entails. And I'm trying to do it not just, I'm not just talking about it, but I'm
actually trying to use my own skills, and all the work that I've done so far to make that happen.
So that makes them more like I don't know if that's where the professional part comes in, like
more like instead of just you thinking about what to do with are you actually getting together
with other people or doing some work about it, or being part of a program that helps you to do
some work about it. But I would say that I feel like I am, just that it's more like on the working
process. I still feel like there's a lot to learn many concepts to grasp as well. Well, um, and
develop as a better citizen as a better individual as a better, I don't know, person in team
player. If I were to explain this word to someone, I would probably say like, as long as you are,
you have passion to do some type of work for others and for yourself like something that you
have some type of self interest in, in the process, you are gathering, like you're organizing
people and you're mobilizing people, then I think that would make you a civic, citizen
professional.
Katie Clark 20:43
What's interesting, this is my third interview so far. And I really hear you and others explain
before you were probably even introduced to these concepts that you were doing civic agency
and being a citizen professional. So I'm wondering, do you think that there's better
terminology? Or have you heard of other terminology to really name some of these things that
you are just doing? Or do these concepts, the way they're described, resonate with you?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 21:17
I would say, I don't know if I'm the right person to say there's better or not. But I think there is
maybe easier ways to explain the type of work that it's done. Since I feel like a lot of people can
be a little intimidated by how it sounds, they might feel like, what they hear is like, oh, no, that
sounds like too much. And I feel like I've done nothing, or I've done so little. And you know,
sometimes a lot of people tend to humble themselves a lot, or more. So I think there's probably
easier ways to maybe get across this concept. So other people can actually identify more
themselves with it. Because personally, I feel like if a few years ago, you asked me the same
question. I would have been first, like, what is this? And second? Oh, I don't think I am, like,
capable or I am not. Yeah, like worth do actually just say that type of title in front of me,
because it sounds like a big word. Um, so that's personally why I feel I probably think there's
like maybe, I don't know, a specific won't be the better word to say maybe. I don't know, I some
type of leader, maybe some are in the leader to want something in there might help to make it
more understanding more, yeah, more practical and more understanding for other people. But I
can see how it can be a tricky word to use around specifically people of my age. Because I think
as part of the LEAD fellows, for example, I see a lot of people doing great things and like
working on things that are really like, awesome. And I know there's so passionate about it. But
when you ask them what they do, sometimes they just like, Oh, they're like, Oh, I just this little
thing, you know, it's not big deal. And I'm like, What are you talking about? This is awesome.
But I think it's just people are not used to like thinking of just big words when they refer to
themselves.
Katie Clark 23:16
I completely agree. So thank you, I appreciate you confirming that. Is there anything you wish
you have you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you haven't yet?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
I would say probably taking a little bit more care of myself. I think I learned how to do it. But I
think there's just like a journey. It's like a long term thing that you kind of learn on the way. But
I wish there could have been I think there's more now, but at the beginning, I feel like it could
have been helpful to have more mental health type of work in the classroom, more
accommodating, suggestions and modes for all the classrooms, all the classes, um, maybe like
they have like in the chapel, they do sometimes people attend. And they have like a specific
speaker that talks just for those 20 minutes about some type of topic. I wish like in those
chapel hours, they would like talk. I don't know how little mental health sessions or, yeah, I
think probably I could have been more beneficiated by more time to think of myself and be
more reflective than think of like go go go go and do do do do. I eventually learned you know,
but I wish Augsburg has been pushing more through that side of it. Does that make sense?
Katie Clark 24:54
That's so important. Thank you for mentioning that. As far as your career development do you
feel like there's any other opportunities that you wish that Augsburg offered? And there's no no
one's gonna get this is just more me asking you in informal and no one's gonna get get you in
trouble for answering the question. It's just some kind of wondering how do you feel about your
opportunities to be ready for your future career?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 25:21
I think that I'm not sure it's like I would I credit to Augsburg just because I feel I had to do more
with me, looking for those opportunities, and staff and professors that were willing to, like,
answer those questions for me. So I think I would like to say, like, yes, it was Augsburg and the
people that I met, like, I made those connections with where an expert at what I want to say is
more due to those people like those staff, those great staff members, those great faculty
members, and of course, me going and looking for those people that were able to help me that
they were able to provide me with like opportunities and say, like, they saw my my capabilities,
my skills, and they say, oh, Barbara, I think you should apply for this, or there's this program
going on in the summer, or there is this, I don't know, class in the spring that it's going to help
you with data analysis, right? Simple. I think those kind of like suggestions, and those type, like
people that mentor me, you know, mentor me to go in like this. I know, this is what you want.
And I know this relates to that. So go ahead, do it. I think thanks to them, I feel more more
capable and better prepared for the future, whatever that means.
Katie Clark 26:47
Excellent. Well, is there anything you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:52
I would say maybe this is not related specifically to civic engagement or anything. But, I
mentioned a little bit how I'm an immigrant, and I, I was born actually, in Venezuela, I have only
like three and a little bit like three years and a few months in the country. And I know, there's
many other people that are living or had similar circumstances like me. And I think at the
beginning, I had this thought that I was not able to do a lot of things, because of my
documentation, because of just like the situation that I was going through. But if anyone else
out there, it's having the same situation, and they think they can't do it, or that it's just hard, or
that they feel like there's so many doors keep closing in front of them. I would encourage
people to keep trying and just to keep looking for the thing to the right people, like there's
gonna be people are gonna be like, No, you can't do it, or that's too hard, or I don't know
anything about that. But there's gonna be people that are going to tell you, I don't know about
it, but I can try to help you. And there's gonna be people like, Oh, yes, absolutely, we can work
on this. So just keep knocking on those doors. And keep, like, don't feel this courage. Just
because someone say no. I just feel like I want to make sure that people, whoever is listening
to this, or whoever I get to, in contrary to my life, I can make, like, tell them that everything is
possible as long as they're willing to work for it. And as long as they are trying to find what
works for them, because I can give you an advice. But what worked for me doesn't mean
they're going to work for you. So just make sure that you're keep, keep trying ways until you
find the one that works for you. And, yeah, just be yourself. Enjoy the moment. I keep doing the
things I enjoy doing.
Katie Clark 29:00
Thank you. I mean, that's so beautiful. And so moving. And so thank you for that. So that
concludes our formal interview. So I want to thank you for your time
Show less
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All righ... Show more
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All right. So we're gonna start with your background. So where were you born and raised?
Amal Issa 0:25
I was born in Minneapolis, downtown Minneapolis, and I was raised here so I lived here all my
life.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:32
Okay. And how many siblings do you have?
Amal Issa 0:35
I have eight siblings, two brothers and sisters.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:40
Nice. So growing up in Minneapolis, did you feel like you were surrounded by your community?
Or did you ever feel like discriminated against?
Amal Issa 0:52
I, I felt I was surrounded by my community, because I think outside Somalia, Minnesota has the
largest population of Somalis? So I was constantly surrounded by Somalis. I didn't feel left out,
in a sense.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:06
Nice. So, in terms of your religious upbringing, how was that like? :ike, did you guys go to the
mosque often? Did you celebrate the holidays?
Amal Issa 1:16
Yeah. I'm Muslim. So I spent like, a lot of time in mosques and celebrating. We only have like,
two holidays. So yeah, we'd celebrate those. But we wouldn't really- So I went to like a small
school so we would get it off to celebrate, but like when I got into university, it's not considered a
national holiday. So I'd have to like skip class.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:43
Oh, okay. So can you give more detail about what you remember growing up and celebrating
the certain traditions and stuff?
Amal Issa 1:53
Yeah. Um, when we're celebrating, this is like a one specific restaurant we always go to. And
like, we've been going there for, however many years it's like, tradition now, for us to go there.
But it feels weird when we don't go, because over the summer we were out of the country. So it
was only my dad and my sister left here. And the rest of us didn't go, so it felt kind of weird
adjusting to life outside of what I grew up knowing.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:25
So when- You said, You guys go in the summer. So is that for Ramadan? Or what is that for,
when you go to the restaurant? Or is that just like a family thing?
Amal Issa 2:35
It's for Eid. So our two holidays. Yeah. But yeah, the last one was in the summer, but we're out
of the country. So we didn't end up going.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:44
Okay, so how was it like going- or going in? I mean, going to Somalia?
Amal Issa 2:48
Um, it was weird, because it's my first time out of the country ever. So it took a lot of adjusting.
Like, when I'm in Minnesota, it's like, "oh, you're too Somali". But when we're there everyone
knew us as the American kids. So it was kind of like, it put us off a little, because everyone, like,
even when we didn't speak, everyone automatically knew us. I think we're like the talk of the
neighborhood. But it was weird kind of adjusting to the different way of life. And it could be that
hard to adjust to it. I liked it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23
So how long were you there?
Amal Issa 3:25
Two months.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:26
Two months? Okay, and did you stay with family or did you go to like, a hotel or something?
Amal Issa 3:32
No, my mom was renting a house there. So, we stayed there for two months, but we had family
over every single day. So it felt it felt nice, because everyone's so busy when we're here, but
there's it's like a new person's coming to visit us every day. It was nice.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:47
Oh, it's nice. And how was Eid there compared to here? Like how you celebrate it? What would
you say?
Amal Issa 3:55
I missed Eid here. It was weird over- It was nice. But I was just so used to having- Celebrating
Eid here. So it felt kind of weird, but we went to the ocean, which is pretty nice. It was very
pretty. But we spent it around family, so I liked that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:14
How are you involved in the Muslim community and how were you like, I guess, as a child and
then to now like, how were you involved in community? Muslim or like, Somali too?
Amal Issa 4:26
Okay. Um, as a child, I spent most of my time surrounded by Somalis, as I said earlier, but I
went to like a small, charter school, that was mostly Somali. But now going to University of
Minnesota, I kind of want to give back, so I volunteer at the Brian Coyle Center in South
Minneapolis and I just helped tutor kids there. It's a nice experience and I get to help out in my
own way.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:56
Yeah. And at Brian coil- So can you give more detail on that program like, what kind of kids are
there or is it connected with other schools?
Amal Issa 5:04
Yeah. Okay, so the Brian Coyle Center is like a community center for the Cedar Riverside area
in South Minneapolis. It's close by here. But it's mainly Somali- A Somali community, people that
live there. So a lot of Somalis come in, but I work. I volunteer in the Teen Tech Center, and it's
funded by Best Buy. But what I do is, I tutor youth between around like, 5th to 9th- 10th grade,
and I just helped them with their homework. It's mainly after school, so if they ever need help,
the kids that live inside the area, they come and they get that they need.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:47
And how long have you been volunteering there?
Amal Issa 5:50
About a year and a half now. I started there, because of the scholarship I got, but ended up
really liking it. So I went back.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:57
Oh, nice. So you're talking about the University a lot. So what made you choose the University
of Minnesota?
Amal Issa 6:06
Honestly, my first choice was Augsburg.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:09
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 6:09
Yeah, I was like, set on coming here. But along the way, I had like some financial issues. I
applied, I got accepted and everything, but there's like some financial issues. So I ended up just
like, on a whim, choosing the University of Minnesota. I didn't really want to go there, but I love
it. It's so much more different than I thought it would be.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:29
So what did you think it would be like? Or like why didn't you want to at first?
Amal Issa 6:34
Well, my sister goes there, so I thought it would be weird. But, um, I grew up like in South
Minneapolis, really close to the University of Minnesota. So I spent a lot of my time there. And I
felt like I knew what was going on there. And it seemed like really small to me, but it's gigantic.
It's amazing. It's beautiful. But, um, what was the question?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:59
Oh, I guess I asked you- Sorry, I asked you what made you go against it before? Yeah, what
you thought about it before and I guess what you think about it now?
Amal Issa 7:08
Yeah, I thought it'd be like a small school, because I went to St. Paul college and St. Paul
College was a really small and diverse- When I came here it's, you know, a predominantly white
school, but I love it. It's big. There a lot of opportunities and a lot of different things I could do to
feel kind of like at home.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:31
Okay. And, um, do you know your major yet?
Amal Issa 7:35
Yeah. I'm majoring in mathematics. Hopefully to minor in Arabic.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:40
Okay, cool. So they have- They offer Arabic classes then there?
Amal Issa 7:45
Yeah, I'm taking one the semester. I wanted to minor in Spanish, but I just gonna put that on
hold, because it's a little too hard for right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:53
Yeah. So how is the Arabic class? Is it like what you thought it would be? Or- Or did you have
expectations of it?
Amal Issa 8:01
Yeah, so growing up Muslim. Arabic played a huge plays a huge role in my life. So I thought like
I knew enough, and I did not enough, to like get me by, because in like an Arab country or
anything, but I really don't know anything about the basics, but it's- My teacher is great. It's
making me fall in love with the language and that's why I want to continue, because- Just the
way he teaches it makes me really like it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:31
It's great. So I'm sorry, I guess I'm jumping back to like Islam. But um, how do you think Islam
affects your everyday life? Like do you pray or is there anything that you do?
Amal Issa 8:45
Um, well, it affects the way I dress because I wear the hijab every day. But yeah, I pray every
day. It doesn't really affect my life, because I just have to take a couple of minutes out of my day
to go and do my prayers, but I think it helps me feel like more at ease, knowing that like thingsthings will turn out okay.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:09
And when did you start wearing your hijab?
Amal Issa 9:12
Um, I'm not sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:15
Oh, you're not sure?
Amal Issa 9:15
It's been a while. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:16
Oh, okay. Yeah. So moving on to, I guess your current life in terms of like Sisterhood Boutique
or like your after high school life, I guess. What made you connect with Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 9:36
It's a weird story, because my sister, um, interned there summer of last- 2018. Yeah, summer
2018, my sister interned there and I was unemployed then. I was just at home, most of the time.
And my sister was going to go on a camping trip to the Boundary Waters. So she's like, "oh,
since you're at home all the time, uh, you should come along". So I was like "Okay, why not?"
We ended up- And it was with Sisterhood Boutique, so I invited a friend and we ended up going
camping with them for a week. It was brutal, but I guess we kind of bonded, while we were
there, because the store manager,at the time, went with us and she offered us jobs afterwards.
We ended up interning there and I interned there for about eight, nine months, and then my
internship ended, the beginning of the summer, right before we left for Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31
Oh, okay. And can you explain what you did at Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 10:37
Yeah, so for the most part, we'd work on the store floo, just arranging the front and doing
inventory in the back, helping customers. But we also attended a couple different events. We
helped with their annual fashion show. And yeah, that's mainly what we did. But since I stopped
working, I just go back a couple times a week to help out.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:05
Yeah, that's sweet. So what other events do you remember? Other than the fashion show?
Amal Issa 11:12
I can't remember their names. But, um, I was invited to represent, like, Pillsburg United
community. So Sisterhood is under the Pillsbury United Community. So I was invited to present
them at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. I think it was in like April, I think. Yeah. So I was
invited to represent them. And it was like an equity summit, at the Radisson Blu, but it was a
really cool experience. Oh, what else did we do?I can't remember most their names. But we
went to a lot of events.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:49
That's okay. Is there anything you'd like to say to people in your community or like any
messages that you would like to put out?
Amal Issa 12:00
I guess there's like, a lot of problems with the youth right now. So just like a message, would be
like, we'll get through it. I mean, our parents survived Civil War, so we can survive anything. So
we'll get through it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:15
And when did your parents come here? Like, did any of your older siblings come with them? Or
born in Somalia?
Amal Issa 12:22
No. So all of my siblings and I were born in Minneapolis, but I think my mom was like, 19 when
the Civil War broke out, and she met my father in Canada, soChyanne Phravoraxay 12:32
Oh really?
Amal Issa 12:33
Yeah. They- So they fled, during the Civil War and my mom- She went through a lot of different
countries, but I know she ended up in Canada and a dad somehow ended up in Canada. That's
where they met and then they decided to relocate to Minnesota and we've been here ever since.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:51
Okay, and are any of your extended family to like your aunts or maybe grandma, grandpa?
Amal Issa 12:59
Yeah. I've never met my grandparents. But one, my dad's mother is in Somalia right now. And
the rest passed away already. So I never met them. But I have a couple aunts and uncles
scattered around the United States and Canada. But I'd say most of my, like, close family's back
home in Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:25
What do you hope to do with your degree in mathematics?
Amal Issa 13:28
Uh, I'd love to be a teacher. So I'm, I'm studying mathematics, but I'm also in the direct track to
teaching program at University of Minnesota. And in order to get into the licensure program, I
have to major in the subject area I want to teach. So, yeah. That's what I'm doing right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:47
Okay. And do you have an idea about what age you're thinking of teaching?
Amal Issa 13:53
I'm stuck between to middle school and high school. I still don't know yet. But one of those
hopefully.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:58
Chronologically, where do you stand in your siblings? Like are you the middle child or
youngest?
Amal Issa 14:06
I'd say somewhere in the middle. I have three sisters older than me and then five siblings
younger than me, including my two brothers. So not exactly the middle, but around that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:23
Okay. About that restaurant that you're talking about, so when do you remember your first time
going there? Or have you- your family been doing that like before you were even born, because
I know you're like, kind of in the middle-ish.
Amal Issa 14:37
It start started, I think maybe like 10-12 years ago, but I'm not sure exactly when. I think it was
too young to remember. But yeah, it was a while ago, and we started going to like another one
also, but now it's been about 8 years so. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:59
So you mentioned going to the charter school, as a child. So what other ethnicities did you, likeI guess were you learning with or like other students?
Amal Issa 15:11
Okay, so the majority were Somali, but there's also like different, um, Arab cultures like
Egyptians and Syrians but also like Pakistanis, Afghanis. But mainly Somali.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:30
And was- Oh, sorry. What were you gonna say? Oh. Was the- was Islam ever like tied into it?
Amal Issa 15:38
Um, not really. They like, give us like a certain amount of time, if we needed to go pray, but
other than that it wasn't really tied into it. But for holidays we would get it off. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57
And for the university- Because you did say that there was a change in like, being surrounded
by your community and then going to university, did you ever feel like uncomfortable or was it
just new?
Amal Issa 16:09
Okay, so when I- 2016, when I was starting my junior year of high school, I started doing PSCO
at St. Paul College first, and St. Paul college was really diverse. And I had a couple of my
friends who were doing PSCO with me, so I was very comfortable there. It was a bit of a
change, but I was still comfortable. But I graduated from high school and St. Paul college, um,
May 2018. And then I started at the University of Minnesota, September 2018. And it was a big
change 'cause I didn't really know anyone there. And it was- It's a predominantly white school,
so I was mainly surrounded by white people and it felt different because I was so used to be
surrounded by Somalis and my friends and it was a bit uncomfortable, but I got used to it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:00
Just judging from what I've heard about, like you being involved in like the Sisterhood Boutique
and you went to the events, are you involved in any other activist stuff?
Amal Issa 17:11
Any other extracurriculars?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:13
Yeah, that too. Yeah.
Amal Issa 17:15
Um, well, for my teaching program, I have to, like, observe, like a high school teacher or a
middle school teacher teaching. So I'm, I'm usually a South High- South High School in South
Minneapolis on Fridays and Thursday mornings, just observing a math teacher. But other than
that, I work through the University of Minnesota with America Reads, and I'm literacy mentor,
around Franklin at- it's called Projects for Pride and Living, but yeah, I tutor there. Like two days
of the week.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:53
So how does that compare to Brian Coyle? Because I know you tutored up at both but they're
different, like organizations.
Amal Issa 18:01
So with- PPL is Projects for Pride in Living, so I'll just call it that. PPL, I worked with just one
student each time I'm there. So we like get into a habit of doing things a certain way. But when
i'm at Brian Coyle, I work with a bunch of different students and sometimes like there's really no
one to tutor. So I'm just like hanging out. So it's a little different, in that way, but it's very
structured at PPL and Brian Coyle was kind of like, "whoever comes comes". So it's kind of
different in that way but I like both of them equally.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:39
And what do you think of your- I guess, I forgot the term. Was it- does the observation I guess or
is that- that's not an internship, right? You're just observing the teacher?
Amal Issa 18:49
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:50
Okay.
Amal Issa 18:50
It's just, I, service learning. That's what it is.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:53
Oh. Okay. Service Learning.How is that? Like can you give me more details on it?
Amal Issa 18:57
Well, yeah. Um, so when I first started, I was in a chemistry classroom, and I'm a math major. I
took chemistry like four years ago. So I don't really know anything. I forgot everything. So it was
kind of weird. But the teacher was a great teacher, I loved his way of teaching. And then he
somehow got me into a math classroom to observe that, and she's also- the teacher I'm working
with, she's also a great teacher, it's just a bit calmer. It's interesting to look at stuff from like, a
teacher's perspective, the teacher's perspective now, because I've been so used to being a
student. Yeah, that's kind of interesting and like a new experience.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39
So, um, this is just from my knowledge of like, education majors, but when do you start getting
involved in like, becoming like a teacher's assistant and like, teaching with them? Do you know?
Amal Issa 19:54
Um, I think that'll be when I'm in the licensure program. So after I can make bachelor's, is what I
would think. It's my first year in the teaching program, so I'm not really sure. Each school's
different, butChyanne Phravoraxay 20:07
Oh, okay. And other than becoming a teacher do you think you're going topursue more
education or any other plans, alongside being a teacher?
Amal Issa 20:18
I don't want to stay in school very long. But um, originally I wanted to go into the medical field,
but the years of schooling just put me off, and I love teaching, so I was like "Uh, I could do this
instead!". But I'd love to be like an EMT or paramedic one day.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:36
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 20:36
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:37
Okay.
Amal Issa 20:38
We'll see how that goes. I was gonna say like, I'm thinking of applying for- So St. Paul and
Minneapolis, they have like an EMS Academy thing that they do every year, so I was thinking
maybe I should apply for that next year.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:55
That is so interesting, because of- because of your history, as like becoming an teacher and
then the EMT, I wouldn't imagine, but that's interesting. When you start teaching, do you plan on
staying like within Minneapolis?
Amal Issa 21:09
That's a hard question. I'd love to travel outside, but at the same time Minneapolis is my home.
I'd like to sort of give back in a way. So I think I'd teach here first, for at least a couple of years.
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 21:25
Nice. You said there's problems with the youth like, do you? Can you pinpoint them? Or likeAmal Issa 21:34
There's a lot of problems with opioids right now. And I went to an event at Brian Coyle, a couple
weeks ago, and they were just opening up the floor to bring like questions that the youth have
forward about it. And they were just also educating the youth and their parents about the
different types of drugs and how they affect you. And if you see someone having an overdose,
what you could do. And they were like handing out in narcan too. So I thought that was very
interesting and it's just like- It's been something that's been like kept quiet for so long. It feels- It
feels nice to see it being brought up into the open and hear people talking about it and like trying
to take steps forward to see how they could help people who are suffering from like with drug
abuse.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:33
Um, I think- Because we did watch a video. It was like by Somali TV, in class, and it was like this
woman talking about her addiction, so i think, i don't know if that was like from them?
Amal Issa 22:45
Was she sitting?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:46
She was sitting and there's like two guys or like, I don't know.
Amal Issa 22:51
Um, they held that like a week or- Two or three weeks after the one I went to. So I didn't really
see that one.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:58
Oh, but they were not connected like by an organization or?
Amal Issa 23:01
I think they were. There's this group called, like the- Changing the Narrative, and they're the
ones that held the first one and I think they might have helped organize that one too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:12
Okay and why do you think this is happening within the- within the community?
Amal Issa 23:18
I really do not know. I don't know. It's- it's kind of like, a new topic to me too, because it's not
something like, I've heard of. But where I grew up- Where we live right now, it's not really the
safest and we like see things that people shouldn't be seeing. So it's like, not that new to me.
But it's new to me, in the sense that I haven't heard of it happening in the Somali community as
much.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:49
Oh, okay. Thank you so much for coming them all. Are there any last things you'd like to say?
Amal Issa 23:57
Not really.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57
No? Okay. Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great questio... Show more
Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great question. Um, I had classes and stuff in the
morning, so I had to, you know, be awake for that. Also, this morning,
I watched the Chauvin trials just to understand what's going on. It
was very interesting. I do want to go into law. So I was like, this is
a really good way to understand what's going on, especially so close.
Ours is like, you know, our city and like, our campus. So yeah, that
was those that took up a big part of my morning. Yeah,
Salma Awil 0:45
they brought their first one witness in today. And I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna watch it. But I kind of got a littel glimpse of what was
going on today.
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah, no,
0:52
Salma Awil 0:53
yeah. So What year are you? for college?
Zack Abdullahi 0:57
I'm a senior. So I'm going to be graduating in like, a month or
something.
Salma Awil
Congrats.
1:01
Zack Abdullahi 1:01
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Salma Awil 1:04
Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Zack Abdullahi 1:07
For sure. So like I said, my name is Zakariya. Um, I was born in
Kenya. So when you were talking about Kenya, I was like, I remember a
little bit of that. But I didn't live in Kenya for too long. I lived
there for like two years. And then I moved to Somalia. And we lived in
kismayo for a while. Me and my mom. And then we moved back to Kenya
for like, a little bit. And then we moved to Uganda. And we lived
there for like two years. Yeah, no, we moved back to Kenya. And I was
like, Oh, my God, this country. So um, yeah, that was that. And then I
came here on is about eight years old. And I've lived here like, since
then.
Salma
A lot
from?
years
Awil 1:41
of traveling a lot back and fourth. So how was it I'm traveling
So you said you came? You came back here when you was eight
old?
Zack Abdullahi 1:50
Yeah. Yeah. moved to America when I was eight,
Salma Awil 1:53
eight. So how was it like going from Somalia to Kenya to here and then
coming back here?
Zack Abdullahi 1:59
Um, it was very experience
Salma Awil
of all
2:01
Zack Abdullahi 2:02
like, yeah, it was very weird, because in Kenya, like, I lived in
Nairobi, in a community. Like little I don't know what it is, but it's
called Eastleigh. And so it's basically a sub section of Nairobi. And
there's a huge Somali community there. So when we left there and went
to Somalia, I didn't know we left because I was like, oh, more
Somalis? Yeah. So like, it wasn't really that different. And then when
we when we went to go live in Uganda, we lived in the capital city
city, Kampala. And we lived in like a majority Somali neighborhood.
But Kampala was a little different. Because there was more like, you
know, non Somalis, and I got to see them. And I remember thinking,
like, because most of most of the people I met were Muslim, but like
they weren't Somali. So I was confused. I was like, how can you be
Muslim and not Somali? Because I thought I'm assuming Somalia was the
same thing. And then I came here, and then that was, yeah, that I got
thrown out the window because I was like, dang, like, no Muslims.
barely any. And yeah, that like, the whole thing was just different.
Cuz in Africa, like, you're just living your best life, like you don't
have to stress about much. And then come here, and it's very
different.
Salma Awil 3:05
So how was it when you came here? And did you fit in with a somali
community or like, slash the Muslim community? How was it?
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah,
3:13
Salma Awil 3:13
you said you had problems with uganda . So coming here from like,
Kenya, you said something about going Somalia to Kenya, and you feel
like you're still at home? Because, you know, with the Somali
community. So coming back here, how was that with? You know, finding
your own community? Like was that hard? Any experiences that you had
with?
Zack Abdullahi 3:31
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, yeah. So when I came here,
everybody's like, Oh, your fob, because you're not English. I don't
remember much To be honest, like the first like, year or something,
because I remember it was just like, I could understand English, but I
couldn't understand it that well. So I knew what was being said, but I
didn't know like, how to respond and stuff. And so I think I came like
first second grade or something. And the Somali were like, he's a fob,
like, don't talk to him. So that wasn't, that wasn't like, I didn't
really connect with them as much. And then I went to a, like, a cadaan
school, I guess, public school. And it was just awkward, because like,
I didn't know anything, like I didn't know how to interact with people
nothing. And then I would fight people a lot because I'd be like, Oh,
you're talking shit about my mom. Like, we're gonna fight and so like,
there's just a lot of fights. And yeah, so like, I didn't know
anything. And then my dad took me to a charter school. And it was very
small, like you were talking about earlier. And there it was still
like your fault because I still didn't know English. So yeah, so
they're still like, Yo, dude, you're fob. Like, we're all born here.
Like, you know, speake English. So I was in ESL for like, two three
years, like just trying to learn English, make sure I had that down.
And then after that, things got better because like, it felt like I
was part of like, you know, the society and community cuz like, I have
gotten used to things by them.
Salma Awil 4:52
Okay, so you said he went to a public school to
did you go to? That the two changes from public
transition go was it like hard, even though you
mentioned. So like that to transition like what
like, public to charter cuz. For me it was kind
cultural thing. Yeah. Um, is that same for you?
a charter what schools
to charter? Yeah. that
said it was kind of
made your parents
of more like a
Zack Abdullahi 5:14
I think so because for me like I was just the troublemaker because I
was fighting everybody in their mom and the public schools and my dad
was like, well, maybe he goes to a school for people that look like
him and like, you know, speak Somali a little bit like they can defuse
the situation. So that's why they took me there. And I went to Wilson
Elementary School, which was also I think they had like a Spanish
Immersion program. And the horrible thing is, I was learning Spanish,
and I wasn't learning English. And they're getting tired of me because
you're here to be learning English, not Spanish. So the whole school
is trying to me My dad was tired of it. So they just took me to the
higher ground Academy, which was in St. Paul. And that places Somali
Central. So yeah, and I remember when I first came into that school, I
was like, I saw all the Somali boys. And I was like, Oh, my God, like,
this is amazing. And I remember going up to him be like, hey, do you
want to be friends? And I was like, in third grade or something. And
there would be like, who else's weirdo bro. But after a while, like, I
think like, couple weeks and like it was it was fine. I was still the
fob because like, I still didn't know English that long. But the cult,
like, changing into that, like getting to know people wasn't too bad.
Salma Awil 6:18
So how is it now with the Somali community right now live from like,
he said, he came here at eight till now. So was that any hard finding
like you know, local mosque like masijd finding within your own
community? Have you had any had any hardships with that?
Zack Abdullahi 7:02
I would say not too much. Because my dad lived here before me. My mom
came here. So Excuse me. So he was like, he knew all the masjids. He
knew everything. So when we came here, I kind of just followed his
lead. I had family and cousins that lived here. So like, I got to be
with them and kind of like connect with Somali community there. I
would say the only change I saw really was when I went to high school.
I went to Roseville area High School in Roseville. And there wasn't
that many Somalis there at all. So it was hard like to connect, and I
lived in Roseville. So like, I didn't get to see that many Somalis
ever. And the first time I ever came to Minneapolis, like for more
than like, a couple hours when I was when I moved on campus for
Augsburg, so living in Roseville and going to school, they're like,
I've barely saw Somalis. And so there was a huge disconnect when I
came to Minneapolis here and like, I got to meet Somalis at Augsburg
and Somalis in the community. Because they were like, Oh, you act
white. And you think your white, And you think you're better than us.
And this and that. And I was like, all, you know, like, cuz I feel
like our values, not our values, perse, but like, just kind of the way
we are. Yeah, is they thought they were like, Oh, you don't hold those
values that we hold. And so for me, I'm like, Oh, well, like, I want
to be on time like this, this and that. And like, I remember freshman
year, people were like, Oh, you you want to do this, this and that.
And you think you're better than us. And you think you're not Somali
and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, cool. But I think the core values
still exist that you know, like, we're Muslims, and we have these
values that you know, we uphold and that type of stuff. But there's
little
Salma Awil 8:34
Yeah, I understand. Okay, so how was it when you came here? Cuz you
said on Roseville for her freshman year? How was it with you know, cuz
he said there was a little disconnect. How did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 8:48
Um, so freshman year, I lived on campus. And I had three other
roommates. One of them my direct roommate was Mexican, and the other
two were Somali. And like I said, like, our culture's, I guess, kind
of like, me, and the other small guys weren't really like, compatible,
just because like, they grew up in Minneapolis, and like, this was
their area until like, they would always have friends over. And for
me, that was like, not like, you can't just have random people like in
the living room and in my bedroom. Now that's so like, we had that
clash. And they'd be like, yo, just chill out, bro. Like, you know,
and that's where the whole like, Oh, you think you're white, all this
part stuck in. So it's just kind of hard to try to connect with people
because it was like, all like, we do these things. And like, you don't
do these things. And you know, it's just weird. But I think after a
while, I was just like, finding my own thing and doing my own thing
and not being like, Oh, I need to find friends or I need to find a
community this and that. And I think now being a senior like, it's
definitely changed where I do have a lot more Somali friends. And I
think it's just about finding like people that you click with, like
you said earlier and then just going from there.
Salma Awil 9:50
Definitely. Okay. So this is kind of on since you're graduating. What
are your future plans, like what do you want to do and why? Yeah,
that's
Unknown Speaker 10:00
where I'm so I'm actually accepted an offer from the U of M, the
Humphrey School, literally right there to start my master's of
development practice in September, so shall be going into
international development working on doing Education Development,
either in Africa or the Middle East. So hopefully, doing that stuff.
So yeah, thank you. So, because, like, I remember being a kid in
Africa and like, be like, my daughter would be like, oh, education is
super important. And when I travel, like, and I go visit, like home
and like mogadishu, or wherever, like I always see, like a lack of
education. And people like need an education so they can build their
country and their selves up. So that's why I'm like, I want to go into
that field and like, dedicate my life to doing that for like, our
communities.
Salma Awil 10:46
Great. MashAllah, amazing, you know, going back home to like, because
that I still going back home again, I see videos, or like my mom
talking about it, saying, you know, we have a lack of education, they
would come here for Yeah, I totally understand. You know, MashAllah.
Congrats on that. So, what other countries? Have you been to? I know,
this is kind of off topic?
Zack Abdullahi 11:09
Yeah. I visited a couple countries, I'd say,
Salma Awil 11:13
like, rather than Uganda and Kenya. And so,
Unknown Speaker 11:15
yeah, I would say, I've been to like, if you Eithopia, Israel and
Palestine, which is a weird one, and then Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
But yeah,
Salma Awil 11:26
so that kind of ties into so how is it from visiting other countries?
Like, did you see other Muslim communities? Did you like, you know,
fit in with, like, you know, how was it from experiencing from
Minnesota from home to other, you know, Muslim communities? Yeah. Was
it a little bit different? Was it like, how did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 11:46
Um, I would say in the more Muslim predominant countries, like it was,
it was really easy. In the case of Israel and Palestine, that was very
interesting, because, especially being black. Because like, we went,
like, we went everywhere within the country, like we went up north,
like the south and then. So that was a little awkward, because like,
they had, they hadn't really seen like, too many black people up
there. But when we went to Jerusalem, like you, like, within the city,
like there's like, the Muslim quarters, and the Jewish quarters, and
the Christian quarters, and you're when you're moving around those
like the Muslims, like, I don't know how, like, everybody just knows
they're Somali, I swear to god is weird. It's like that type of blood.
Right? Cuz like I was walking around, and they'd be like, they'd be
like, yo, yo, come here, and they use go up to them. They're like, all
right, like, you're Somali, blah, blah, blah, you know, you see, and I
was like, What? And that's the same thing that happens in Medina. And
like, monka, to like, they just, they just be yelling, like Somalis
and stuff. Yeah, so it's, I think the Muslim community, wherever you
go, is very connected. And I think I was surprised cuz I was like, I
would not be able to tell if somebody was like, you know, Egyptian, or
Palestinian or this or that. Like, I don't know, most people look the
same to me. Like, I'm not gonna lie. So yeah,
Salma Awil 13:00
definitely. Yeah. It is kind of hard to tell kind of people but it's
interesting how you said that you went to Medina? Was it? How they
told you, come here, Come here, and know, your Somali. And so that
was really interesting. Was it like, a whole shock like that? Like,
how did you interpret that? Um,
Zack Abdullahi
13:19
I think, because so many like Somalis do visit Mecca and Medina.
They're used to seeing them. So like, I went with a couple guys from
Augsburg and like other other guys from Minneapolis. If I could study
abroad, they did there. No, it was just like a bunch of sorry. No, no,
it's just a bunch of guys that went together. Through this program
called strung together in Minnesota. You might have heard of it. Yeah.
So like, it's just a bunch of boys. There's like 30 or 40 of us, we
all went there. And then an hour hotel is right next to like all the
shops right next to the prophete masjid. So like, we were to go from
our hotel to the masjid you had to pass by the shopping center And
there was be like, a Samana. Like there would be yelling at the top of
their lungs. And then they'd be like, come here, we have a deal for
you. Okay, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's just super fun.
Because, like, they're just like, you know, doing their thing. And
we're just like, having fun. It wasn't like, anything weird or like,
yeah, I'm trying to try to like scam us or something like that.
Salma Awil 14:17
Okay, so back to Minnesota. Is Minnesota, like the place that you
would, like, bring back come back as a family? Is it like a, I would
say, a safe space for us and you know, traveled in different
countries? Would you like to come back here and start a family?
Zack Abdullahi 14:33
Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely say that, um, but also
thinking of like, what I would do, like, career wise, I'll be
traveling a lot internationally. So I feel like maybe like, living in
different places would also be nice. But I'm also trying to think of
like if like the inshallah, like having kids and like we're, you know,
like constantly moving them because I hated moving when I was a kid.
But I think Minnesota would definitely be a place just because there's
already that that community, that structure and Then like, you know,
they get to see people like them. They also have a bit of diversity
where like, it's not just Somalis. But another place I always wanted
to live. After visiting is Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, because it's so
beautiful and like, I have family and friends there and I was just
like, like this This place is, you know, so yeah, as definitely like,
I definitely think about that like, like either Jeddah, Somalia. I
don't know, like, I feel like there's too many Somalis to be honest.
And then here, just because like, you know, like, they get to be in
that Islamic, like surroundings in Minnesota, because there's a lot of
Somalis in in Jeddah, like, Saudi Arabia, like Mecca is an hour away.
So it's beautiful. Yeah.
Salma Awil 15:40
Um, so how is it with? I would say, since it's more COVID now, like,
you know, we get used to the COVID with wearing mask? How is that with
you? Like, the everything is my virtual and resume? The How is that
with, you know, interacting with other Muslim communities? Is that Is
it hard to like, even, you know, masjid, you know, going to the
mosque, or anything like that, is it more virtual? Like, how was that
for you? Like, how's that road?
Zack Abdullahi 16:07
Yeah, I remember in March, last year, like my dad, when he left for
Somalia to visit, like, family and stuff. And I was just by myself,
and I was like, you know, like, we still didn't know too much about
COVID. Because we were hearing about it. And then like, once he got
there, they started talking about, like, We're shutting down airports,
in Somalia, all this stuff. And I remember like, being like oh Ramadan
is coming up, and like, I'm gonna spend it all by myself. And that was
just sad. Because I was like, dang, like, usually men who mean him
would go to the masjid and like, you know, do our thing. Like, it was
just like, a routine and like culture that we had. And then, like, the
worst part was just not getting to, like, go to Tel Aviv or anything
like that. It was just like, yeah, you were just stuck in the house. I
was just there by myself and be like, just praying and stuff. But
yeah, that has been, I think the worst part is not having that
community because I think Muslim, like, Islam is surrounded by like,
you know, the core things like having that community, like, that's why
we do Hajj. That's what we do Umrah. I'm not like a lot of these
things we do together as a community, so we can build, you know, that
community up. So when COVID came along, he just ruined all that it was
just super hard. Even now trying to go to the masjid on Fridays, like,
you have to sign up on a website, or you have to be in line
Salma Awil 17:19
some masjid, they give you like a COVID screening or something like
that.
Zack Abdullahi 17:22
Yeah, it's very, like they have a lot of things going on. So like, I
have to try to find the right masjid at the right time and all this.
So that does kind of mess that up on. I remember before COVID started.
A lot of the guys that Augsburg and I would go to this mystery type
just like a mile away. And we would go there for like holidays and
stuff. Like now we can't do that. So like, This definitely just
literally just came along and said we're we're I'm ruining everything.
So
Salma Awil 17:49
COVID COVID did really messed up a lot of things. Yeah. Um, so what do
you look forward to like right now? Like, since the Ramandan is coming
up, you know, since COVID? Are, I think my more masjid right now are
starting to open back up? Yeah. Like, what are your plans for that?
Like, how do you feel?
Zack Abdullahi 18:06
Yeah, um, so my dad is back in my mom's back. So I'm like, this is at
least going to be like, not as lonely as last time, it was awkward. So
I'm excited for that. But also, I think, hopefully, the masjid are
opened up, just like going like with my dad and my friends and just
going through the motions and spending time together. Because I think,
like, even with my cousins, like, last year, we couldn't do anything.
So going through the masijid and spending time with them. It was
just, I think, important. So that's one thing. Hopefully we can like,
interact with more people too, because it's not like, you don't build
like community just in the midst of like, you can build it outside
too. So hopefully we get to do that. Hopefully, Eid does not ruin
because last year, that was horrible. It was terrible. So yeah, I'a,
let things work out, hopefully, hopefully and i'a
Salma Awil 18:56
Okay, so another question I'm going to ask you is, how did your faith
you know, influenced your life as a Somali man in the Muslim
community?
Zack Abdullahi 19:07
Um, I would say when I was like living in Africa and like more Muslim
communities, I guess, like, I was a kid, to be honest, but still,
like, I never had to worry about things. And I think of something my
dad told me where he was like, oh, when I lived in Somalia before the
Civil War and stuff like, like, he didn't see like, so like, for
example, like in the Quarn, like, don't do this, don't do that. And
he's like, oh, like, Who would ever do that? Like, why would people do
that? And he's like, when I came here, like, he's like, I saw, you
know, the things that I really I was oblivious to. And so I kind of
have that sense to where I'm like, when I came here, I'm like, yo,
like, my faith is super important. And I need to hold that dear. But I
think one thing that I absolutely love about Muslims and Islam in
general is like, the generosity part. Like we're always and Somalis
like, specifically like you mentioned this to in your interview. But
like, I don't think I've ever been to like Somalis were like stingy or
weird about things. Like they're always so like welcoming and just,
like you never feel like out of place, you know. And so that
generosity for me is important because I've met so many kind people
like around the world, like, Everywhere I go, like I always meet kind
people. And like, anytime I'm at an airport, and like, there's other
Somalis there, they're always helping each other. Yes. And so like,
that's just like, so beautiful to me. And just to see, like, you know,
that they have that common shared identity and like, they will never
probably see each other again, but like, they care about each other
and like, they have that love for each other regardless. So like,
that's something I want to always have like shout, pass down to my
kids and be like, yo, like, you love people. respect people. And just
always be generous to people because like, if you're closing your
hand, you know, like Allah gives you the risk that's not yours to keep
and you know, try to be stingy with so like, always give and always
love, I think would be something that
Salma Awil 20:55
it's really good to hear. So little going back to what you said
earlier, you talked about how you went to Roosevelt to higher ground I
believe. So did you face any like as a Somali boy did you face any
like hardships? Like not hardships but with your faith with? Did you
feel any or conflicted with going to a public school or compared to a
more charter? Because more charter I would say is more Higherground is
more Somali, I would say that much you know Somali dominant, but
compared to going to a public school? Was your deen you know, your
faith? Was there any compromise or anything like that?
Zack Abdullahi 21:32
Yeah, that's a great question. Cuz I remember specifically. So when we
moved to Roseville, and my parents were thinking of like, where to
send me to school and stuff. A lot of the Somali people are like, Oh,
don't send your son to like, Rosemont high school because like, you
know, there's like, you know, like, gay people. And there's like this
and that, like, there's a weird white people and like, school shooters
and all this stuff that they're talking about. And so my parents were
really scared, but they're also like, do like, you know, he's, he's
getting to be like an adult and like, he needs to make decisions for
himself. So they let me go there. And like I said, there was barely
any Somalis in my freshman year, there was like, five of us like three
girls and two boys that were Somali. And I remember like, possible, it
was always weird, because like, I would walk in the hallways, and I
will see people literally eating each other's face and like just
making out doing random things. Like, I remember like seeing people
just disrespecting like their teachers and like, parents in so many
different things. And I would always think to myself, like my dad saw
me like, I would not make it that far. And so like, there's definitely
like clashes where I was like, you know, and the hardest part was
like, trying to pray in high school.
Salma Awil
Yeah, I
22:39
Zack Abdullahi 22:39
think college was easier. But high school I remember telling my gym
teacher, like, all my friends have to go pray like, he was only on
this one kid. She'd be like, no, you're just trying to skip out on
gym, or like math teacher would be like, Oh, you're bad at math. So
you're just trying to skip all like, bro, like, I don't like a little
you take 5,10 minutes max. Like, just to go pray. I remember we had to
go through this whole thing to like, you know, make sure we can pray
and like get prayer spaces and all this stuff. There was never MSA at
our school. So we had to start then, like, try to build community
there. So it was definitely difficult just because, like, it's so easy
to like, you know, like, just go into that, like, Oh, it's easier to
give up than to continue to resist and fight. So yeah,
Salma Awil 23:20
it is hard with the public school to like talk about you know,
religion wise, because back in your time, not saying that your old. It
is really hard to talk about, like prayer, even with right now with my
own. Like when I just graduated high school, it was a little bit more
teachers were like now getting used to like kids praying, you know,
kids getting out of class. But yeah, it was difficult, honestly, I
would say.
So, what are you so coming to freshmen here? I was at augsburg
university? Um, did you like, were you involved? Any other like, like
MSA activities, or any, you know, did you were you involved in any
school activities? Can you tell me a little bit more on that?
Zack Abdullahi 24:02
Yeah. Um, so as I mentioned, like, a little bit ago, In high school,
we started the MSA. And that, like, we started that my junior year,
and I was president for the two like, junior senior year. And so, by
the time when I was done with that, I was like, I'm doing student
organizations. I'm doing all that stuff. I never want to see them
again. So when I came to Augsburg, I was very anti, like student orgs.
And I was just like, I'm not doing this. But I did try to go to like
MSA events and stuff just to like, build that community because I felt
like I wasn't that close to the Somalis. And, you know, I think I had
a lot more like Mexican, like Latin ex friends than I did. And so I
was like, because of my roommate was Mexican. So I was like, all I
need to build that. That's where I went. I went to some PASU events.
And then yeah, and then sophomore year, I was kind of gone most of the
time out the country or like out of state, so I didn't get to do that.
And then last year, I ran for president of PASU. And then I became
president and then that's kind of been really like, that's been most
of my Invand then outside of that just like doing like scholarship
stuff and like fellowship stuff on campus. But yeah,
Salma Awil 25:07
yeah, what is PASU?
Zack Abdullahi 25:10
Oh, my bad, it's Pan African Student Union. Okay, great.
Salma Awil 25:13
Is there anything that you want to conclude or that you want to add
that we haven't talked about?
Zack Abdullahi 25:21
No, I think you did a pretty good job.
Salma Awil
Okay.
25:24
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
... Show more
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
experience and time at Augsburg University. Winston Heckt graduated in 2019 from Augsburg
University. So Winston, thank you for coming today! l appreciate you taking time out of your
day to do this interview. So, in order to start, can you please say your name and where you were
born?
WH: Yeah! My name is Winston Heckt and I was born in Minneapolis.
CE: What are your pronouns?
WH: I use he/him/his pronouns.
CE: Did you grow up in Minneapolis?
WH: No, I grew up in Anoka, Minnesota. So, I was born in Minneapolis because my dad works
at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital-so I was born there-but nope; grew up in Anoka, Halloween
capital of the world. Spooky place. Kind of-pretty conservative/pretty white-kind of area. And
so-as I was kind of bouncing out of that, looking into like where I was going to go for
college-I looked at a couple of other places-
CE: Oh, wait, wait. Do you mind ifwe backtrack a little bit?
WH: Yeah, let's backtrack!
CE: Yeah, yeah!
WH: I'm slipping. Yeah, absolutely.
CE: So, how was your childhood like? You mentioned briefly about it, but growing up in
Anoka?
WH: It was good. Anoka's a good place, I think, for-well okay, I'm kind of a liar.
CE: (laughs)
WH: Well actually, I grew up-like
Minnesota-
technically, the house where I lived is in Andover
CE: Oh.
WH:-which is right next to Anoka. I went to Anoka High School and like middle schools-I
was in the Anoka School District, so I just like to tell for clarity and ease of conversation-I tell
people I am from Anoka. I feel a much tighter bond to Anoka. But, it's a good area because it's
kind of like-well, I mean it's-okay so like-politics and everything aside, just like
geographically, it's you know-it's like real, cusp of suburb and country where like-like I lived
thirty seconds away from a turkey fann.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, just like wide-open spaces. Lots of-you know-wildlife and nature; so like, a great
place for little kids to be-you know-running around and playing outside; that kind of thing. So
like, I had a pretty good like-and also, I was pretty like-I'm mixed heritage: my mom's Black
and my dad's white; and my parents are divorced, so I was pretty much raised by my white
father, so I was pretty much raised white. He kind of had-took kind of-I suppose, a colorblind
approach to things, you know. And he was kind of a conservative dude, so I like didn't like
fully-I didn't necessarily know about-like it wasn't in my-kind of scope of understanding
what was quite so shitty about Anoka. I like knew it on an instinctual level because I am
also-so I am pansexual and Anoka was pretty-a pretty homophobic place. There was-when I
was-it was like a little bit before my time-I was alive I guess, but I was kind of like a young
kid while it was going on-but there was like a string of suicides by like young kids; middle
schoolers, high schoolers. Some who were LGBTQIA community; others who weren't, but were
bullied by people calling them-you know-slurs and all that. (Laughs) So, not a real great place
to be for that kind of thing. So like, that part of myself was something that I had-had kind of
like unknowingly just closed off until I got out of that environment and I was like, Okay, I don't
have to have to-there's so much more to like, who people can be and I can just kind of live life
as I see fit. But so, growing up in Anoka was pretty solid, you know. I had a good time; it wasn't
too bad of a-too bad of a childhood. No.
CE: Mmhmm. Well, that's good! How was your education like there?
WH: It was-I mean jeez, it's public education. I went to public school and so-I mean-well,
it was kind of-it was alright; I was kind of an outsider. I think one because I was kind of a
weird kid and two, because I was one of like-other than my siblings-two Black kids in my
elementary school.
CE: Oh, shit.
2
WH: And like, the other kid had a learning disability so I wasn't even around him all the time
like all the time, right; so most of the time, I was the only Black kid around. And so, I got
like-yeah, people-I was really kind of ostracized and shit by my peers, so I kind of became a
recluse. When my-so, my parents got divorced when I was like-kindergarten or first grade, I
kind of forget-real young and my mom moved into a house that was really close to my dad;
didn't have to switch schools or anything, which was real nice. But she ended up moving to
Arizona partway through my sixth-grade year, and at that point, that was when I switched and
started going through Anoka school and stuff. So, that kind of presented me an opportunity to
like get away from my bullied past and kind of like start fresh, you know? And so, what I did
then was kind of close myself off and keep a low profile and hope to not get bullied and kind of
focused in on school. And so-I mean like, I liked school. It was alright (laughs). Oh jeez; you
know, the crap they teach you. They don't teach you the important stuff. Like, I don't know how
to do taxes; I don't know how to balance a budget; I don't know how to sew-I don't have those
decent skills. The history that they teach is really suspect-I put that in air-quotes (both
laugh)-you know, that kind of crap. So you know, your pretty mainstream education. But like I
think Anoka is a pretty-I'm not sure where they sit in terms of ranking of schools, but I think
it's a pretty solid-like it was a solid place to get an education and more or less, I did okay.
Really kind of the only place-math I was kind of-I was failed. I was left behind as early as
elementary school. Like, I don't know how to do-I can't multiply in my head. I have to do like
the addition the long way, because my third-grade elementary school teacher -whose name I
don't know, maybe it was Larson? It doesn't really matter (laughs)-she was a jerk! She didn't
mean how to like-yeah, and you know right, that's kind of how the school system goes. Instead
of sticking with it and teaching people stuff, it's like, Hey; we gotta move along here so if you
don't learn it in time, it's kind of like hey! Shit out of luck. And then that-I ended up being
okay, but then my academic advisor-somehow, I got lost in the shuffle and before you'd take
Algebra Two, there was like-I think it's called Algebra with Quadratics or something like that.
Well, I didn't take that class because no one told me I had to take that class--or it would be
smart to because it wasn't technically required; just kind of like heavily-it would be smart to
take it. So, I rolled right out of Geometry into Algebra Two without the quadratics crap, so I
didn't know what the hell I was doing! And the teachers I had for that were like the two worst
math teachers in the whole school and so, I barely scraped by. It kind of tanked my GPA and that
kind of put a chip in my shoulder so when I ended up at Augsburg-because of like oohh, you
know-Summa Cum Laude-Summa, is that the highest one? Yeah, it is Summa. So I think
because-perhaps because my academic dreams were dashed in high school, I felt like I had to
compensate in college.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, I'm really getting off.
CE: No!
WH: What did you even ask me? I don't even know what I'm talking about (laughs).
3
CE: No, that is perfect! I mean my net question was just going to ask-can you briefly describe
your high school experience?
WH: Yeah, sure! So, I like-my first year in high school like-I was pretty-so like I said, I
pretty kind of like a recluse when I switched over to Anoka. And slowly-from like seventh to
eighth grade, into ninth grade-kind of-sort of like, come out of my shell and start to feel
myself more and-my ninth grade English teacher and-there's an acting elective; those two
teachers really helped me. Han environment where I felt comfortable to bust out and-you
know-try on myself and be confident. So I kind of went from like-and like still really had a
small core of friends and kind of-like every year, got more confident in myself and all that,
whatever. And by like senior year ofhighschool, like I was-I was Homecoming Royalty and all
that crap.
CE: Oh, wow!
WH: Like, other people tell me that I was cool and popular but like I wasn't-I don't
really-like, what matters is like friends and stuff, and I didn't-I wasn't in with the cool kids
really, like. I was like-oh shoot no; now I don't know how to phrase it. The phrase I had used
kind of ableist language-I was like the lowest-like the threshold from like not cool to cool.
Maybe at the end I was cool, but I like bottom, right; minimal, you know, that kind of crap. So
I'm a lifelong musician and stuff and my band ended up being well-known-kind of-by the end
of it; I think that kind of had to contribute to it. But my god, my high school experience; jeez, I
don't know. I was kind of like-you know, high school is learning how to play the game. You
know, it's like they don't teach-you skills; they don't teach you-you know-super important
stuff, how the world works or how to make a resume or any of that kind of stuff. They just kind
of teach you how to take orders (laughs), you know? So I learned how to take orders. And I
also-by the end-kind of learned that it was kind of bullshit a little bit too; thankfully, I was
aware. I also was a-I played football from third grade until like-through high school. And
Anoka High School's football program-at least while I was there; I think before and after-was
fucked up. Like really kind of-like, sadistic and emotionally manipulative to people and like
just the rigorous-how they pushed our bodies and stuff, and forcing us to weights really hard,
but not really-like they paid lip service to having good form, but it was also go-go-go (snaps)
fingers). Like, they didn't really want you to have good form, so it was kind oflike, nah. Not a
chill place. The football team-a lot of those other guys-like Jesus, those are some of the most
homohobic-like racist assholes, you know, I've encountered (laughs). So, learning how to
like- survive and adapt in that kind of environment and flying under the radar and not-you
know, rub anybody the wrong way-was kind oflike-that was one of the more valuable things
I got out of high school, as screwed up as that is. Like that was something that these children are
being put through but-yeah, taught me the skills necessary in those regards. But I don't
know-I really liked English. I liked art stuff. I was-I've played the saxophone since I was in
sizth-I guess I don't really these days, but sixth grade through high school-and Anoka has a
really good music program, so that really nice, right, and we were good. You know, kind of took
it for granted how nice it is to get a break in the middle of a day and just like be with a bunch of
people and make music together-you know?-in this very collaborative, group setting. That's
something that I kind of miss, you know? Yeah.
4
Oh jeez, I'm trying to think what else-what
I was a pretty- I was a pretty dorky kid.
else was high school like, you know? Yeah,
CE: (laughs).
WH: I wasn't really a rule breaker; like-with
crap, I learned how to play by the rules.
high school and the football team, and all that
CE: Yeah.
WH: And then-where the rules were kind of bull-you know, especially by the end, like my
senior year where I first started drinking, smoking, and staying out late and all that kind of
stuff-oh yeah, badass over here!
CE: (laughs).
WH: But like yeah, you know; you get used to people telling you like, "This shit's the worst
thing on the planet! You do this shit and it's just terrible for you!" and you do it, and you're okay.
You know, you're fine. It's not like God's greatest gift or anything; it's not like-I don't want to
glorify that kind of crap. But it's-it is what it is, you know? And so you're like, okay. Maybe
these people-they're full of shit about that; what else are they full of shit about, you know?
CE: A gateway drug to knowledge.
WH: Exactly (both laugh).
CE: So then, how did you come to Augsburg University? Like, what was your college process
like? Why did choose-?
WH: Yeah. It was kind of by-like in retrospect, it's really kind of like-I really just kind of like
fell into Augsburg. I've been makirig movies since I was kid and I knew I wanted to film school
since I was like a teenager-a young teen. So it was kind of a matter of like-so like I said, I
looked-I knew I wanted to go to film school, so I was looking at places. I don't know, didn't
really try-like UCLA or NYU, or those; I didn't even consider them. I didn't feel like I had the
academics to get in or kind of, like, wherewithal. It was kind of between Augsburg and DePaul,
in Chicago-and I got accepted into both. The only reason I went to Augsburg was like-they
gave me more financial aid; it would have cost me more to go to DePaul. But also-you know, I
visited DePaul and Chicago's cool-and maybe one day-but at that time, it was just-it's all so
tall and there's so many people; I was very overwhelmed and I wasn't sure-I was like, I don't
know; maybe sticking in Minnesota for college was more my tempo. So, Augsburg then was
kind of like the only place I applied to. There aren't a lot of place that have a full-four year film
program in the state; that's kind of unique. Like, the UMN doesn't have one.
CE: Yeah.
5
WH: They are film majors there, I've since then learned but people build their own major, and
they didn't advertise-like, I didn't know that was an option so I was like, okay; I can't go to the
U, because I can't do what I want to do there. So, Augsburg had-they had a film program that
used actual film, like true celluloid. So, I went down for a visit and I liked it alright and they left
me in and they gave me decent financial aid so I like, Okay; guess it's Augsburg! So I ended up
enrolling at Augsburg.
CE: Yeah. What were your expectations?
WH: Well, you know (laughs)-the whole 'big city feel in a small campus,' was something that
was kind of pushed on me and like knowing it was a very liberal space and like-knew enough.
You know, 2015-1 was just starting to become more conscious like-you know, I'm thinking
about Black Lives Matters, it's happening-and Eric Gamer, specifically, that sticks in my mind
as kind of like-I mean like, nobody deserves to get killed by the police like that; but that was
like so-that was the first one I encountered so blatantly-this person did nothing wrong
deserving of being killed for it, right-that kind of started to change my trajectory. I was
interested in-you know, cool, I would go to this place and it's like one of more friendly spots;
it's like the most diverse private school in Minnesota; like really friendly to the LGBTQIA
community and like, okay; cool! Expecting it to be this haven of open-mindedness and just
like-whatever. I was expecting-I thought the film classes-they really sold it as a hands-on,
small-port community; more collaborative than competition-based-it was kind of how things
were presented to me. So, those were kind of my expectations. You know, and there's also just
the cultural expectations at large of what college is supposed to be for people-in pop culture
and what not. It was like okay; I guess this what it will be.
CE: What are the pop culture representations?
WH: Well, you know, partying and all that kind of crap-not that I did too much of that crap.
But yeah, you know-eat ramen, that kind of-you know, that kind of 'college-student' kind of
crap. It was kind of like all I understood about it. My older sister-two years older than me, so
she was already-yeah, two years older than me, went to the U, so she-I had some idea of what
college was like; but in retrospect, could have asked her more about it before going into it on my
own.
CE: So when did you enter? 2015?
WH: Yeah, so fall of2015 was when I first came to Augsburg.
CE: And you graduated spring of2019?
WH: Yeah.
CE: Oh. So, did Augsburg fulfill these expectations you had?
6
WH: I mean·(laughs), yes and no. Certainly as a haven for liberals, but like what that means
compared to like what is promised-you know-are kind of two different things. And like
also-I mentioned Eric Gamer-like I was just becoming aware of just like-where my-you
know, I knew I was Black but fully understanding the weight of that and like what that means
and like, having not really been around alot of other Black people-or anybody that wasn't
white, really-· was kind of like-Augsburg was a time where I became racially conscious;
politically conscious, you know. And so-I mean it definitely kind of fulfilled my-I mean I was
open-minded enough to receive it, you know, what Augsburg had to offer me. I mean just in the
first couple days of like, welcome weekend or whatever, I was exposed to a lot of things that I
had never even heard about and now, they're just kind of like pretty standard (laughs) stuff. You
know, being conscious of pronouns and things-you know, I don't think too terrible hard to start
listening and being mindful of. So, that was lit; like I am glad I went to Augsburg. I'm probably
going to end up shitting on Augsburg hereCE: (laughs).
WH:-quite a bit, or things about this place-but it was a good place for me. I'm glad I came
here. I mean, who knows what would happen if anything else happened. Like, if I went to
DePaul-who I was or where I would be. But like-nah, this was a really integral part of where I
ended up these days. So like-the film program was like (sighs) was ultimately-not-leaves
a
lot-left a lot to be desired. I kind of kept waiting for like-because like, there aren't alot of film
majors at Augsburg and so-a lot of the film classes are-it's really not until you're like an
upperclassman that you're in film classes that are just film majors, and even then, that's kind of
rare. So most of the time, it was like-it'd be these business-like the first class you take,
Film-whatever-,
it was like thirty-something people or whatever, and maybe ten of us were
film majors. By far, most of the people were like, Okay; I'll take an easy credit where I can just
sit and watch movies. You know what I mean? So, it was kind of disappointing because I wanted
to just jump in and let's get rolling here! Like, I don't think chemistry majors are sitting in
classes where it's mostly art students that are in their introduction to like what their program is
going to be. I mean (snaps fingers), you kind of hit the ground running and it's not really like
how things happen at Augsburg-which is, you know, alright; forces you to get creative and
· work-learn to work with not a lot. But I wish there was more a-yeah, more of a focus on like
(laughs), getting cameras in people's hands and getting them to make stuff. You know, you can
sit in a room and read theory and make movies-you know, that's important stuff if you're going
to study film and movie making and to be-like the best thing that Augsburg's film program did
for me was just-I always loved movies; my whole family loves movies-like my mom was a
film major and I have been making movies since I was kid. So like, a lot of love there. But
like-Augsburg-my
time here; really kind of the program-it's still-really kind of hit home
the importance of being, you know, conscious of the impact of shit that you make because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whether you're consciously thinking of these things or not, the impact
is going to be what people take away from it; it's there. You know, like death to the
author-doesn't necessarily matter if you-if that's your intent and purpose going into it because
if that's what people are taking away-so I'm glad I learned that and yeah-you know, movies
are good fun. I'm not trying to make it into Hollywood or some shit; I don't have an interest in
that-that kind of making movies. I like to do it-you know, with friends; getting around, having
7
a good time. You know, the pleasure is in the process for me and like-I haven't a lot of
experience in a more professional setting, but I've had a couple. They were exciting and they
were kind of fun; but you know, it wasn't like how I like to make them. Where was I going when
I started with that thoguht? Jeez. (laughs) Film program-yeah they-my dream film program
would be you mix-because most of the time, whether it was a theory class or a production
class-really, I think it should just-like, my best semester for film was like when I was taking a
production class and a theory class. They weren't related to each other-the professor's weren't
working together-but you know, I was taking what I was learning in one class and applying it to
the other and it's like-the projects I was working on for both of them-it was the best, you
know; to be learning what's going on behind the stuff and kind of like-how to apply it and get
out and make stuff. So I think from day one, they should be getting cameras-even if it's just
like crap camcorders; it doesn't really matter if it's 4k or whatever, if it looks nice-just get
people conscious of what they're doing with moving images and just get them making stuff they
want to make. You know (snaps fingers), all the time just go, go, go.
I also (clears throat)-my degree is in film and communication studies and that's because
about a month before class started, I got an email from the director of the Honors Program,
Phillip Adamo-former director of the Honors Program-and it was just like, Hey! You know,
you're academically interesting; you kind of got maybe what we're looking for and you should
think about being in the Honors Program! And like-because like, I didn't think I was some kind
of burnout or anything, but because my GPA had been kind of tanked from those math classes I
took in high school-seeing myself as a Honor student, you know, is like wow; the highest
academic rigor. That's not how I saw myself. I knew I was smart but, you know, being smart and
being good at school (laughs) are not always the same thing; so, I kind of ignored it. You know;
whatever. And then, he sent me another email-wait, I think the deadline passed for applying.
It's like, Okay, you know, I guess it's not going to happen; no skin off my back. And then they
send me another email saying, Hey! Even though it's after what we said, it's not too late if you
want to! And I was like. Damn! They emailed me twice? Why not! and I was like, Sure, I'll do it.
And so, that began (laughs) my illustrious career in the Honors Program and really-that kind
of-big part of what radicalized me, I think-my experience in the Honors Program in my time
here at Augsburg at large.
The Honors Program, your first year, you take at least two classes-I think you can take
more if you want if you take-I don't know if they're still calling them-when I was doing it, it
was Scholar Citizen and Liberating Letters.
CE: Yes.
WH: So yeah (laughs). And so, that Honors class was the first class I ever took in college;
Monday-Wednesday-Friday, eight am.
CE: Scholar Citizen?
WH: Scholar Citizen with Larry Crockett, at the time. And Larry-he was a liberatrian and you
know (laughs). But okay, my perspective going into that class right-like I too, at the time,
didn't know-I didn't know anything about class consciousness or really what capitalism was or
any of these other things. I knew-because my dad was more conservative, I knew Democrats
8
were shit; but I also wasn't totally-you know, rocks for brains (both laugh), so I knew
Republicans were ass too so-at the time, the appeal of liberatarism-Larry and I were on a
similar wavelength, I think, in terms of what things should be. Me being eighteen and him being
middle-age, plus.
CE: Ancient.
WH: But like-at the time-like, that class was kind of a shit show. But similar to-kind of like
how I left Anoka and really opened myself up and reflect on my time there and really started to
realize how screwed up things were there-similar kind of thing in this class. I knew it was wack
(laughs), and some of the people in there were wack, but I don't know-I still do genuinely think
like in a vacuum, what Larry was trying-what I think he was trying to do-at least what he
stated what he tried to get people to do what to get people to question their beliefs and you know,
think critically about everything and think about different newspoints. And you know, that's all
good and fine and dandy. I think his really kind of main point-I don't know if it changes year to
year-but he was really about like-my time with him was about the danger of ideology and
becominging like an ideologue and stuff and stuff; it's like, you can't escape being
non-ideological. Being non-ideological is, in itself, an ideology; you can't really escape that. So
it was kind of like-Larry, himself, kind of became the example of the shortcomings of getting
too blind about one's ideology. He was only nice to me; he wasn't not so nice to others,
particularly the women of color in those classes when it came down to grade. But, for me, that
was the first-so that was the first class I took. And that semester, with all my other classes, got
4.0's in everything and I was like, Oh shit! Holy fuck! And it was because those classes were
super I think and you know, (laughs) I wasn't taking Chemistry 101 or whatever; you know, the
hard stuff where it's like a certain percentage of people will fail this class, bar and all-that
bullshit.
But so-being in the program in the spring, the second class, Liberating Letter, was
taught by Bob Graven who became my academic advisor and was kind of a gateway into-like if
I didn't take that class, I don't think I would have become a communications major. I was
thinking about-I knew I wanted to have a backup plan because I didn't know what the hell I
was doing. I knew I wanted to go into film school because I knew that I wanted-like I just liked
movies so much and have been making them so much, and at that time, I had the naive belief that
if you got a job doing what you love, it would be chill. That's not the case (laughs), but that's
what I thought. So like, I ultimately knew that if I didn't try-if I didn't go to film
school-whether I ended up making movies or not, or even being involved in any of that kind of
stuff-I'd always regret it so you know, I got to do this. So I was like-I knew I needed to have
something other than film and I knew I could pull it off because film was one of the smaller
majors on campus. I didn't end up taking any business classes (laughs), but I think I was like a
business minor for my first two semester, or at least my second-I think my first semester I was
just a film major and I think my second semester I was like, Maybe I should take some business
classes; that's an easy minor. But then I took that class with Bob-and he was in the
communications department; a communications guy-and I really like that class and his style or
whatver and so I was like, Okay; maybe communications! And so, I got into it and so, my
sophomore year was when I started actually taking classes and really enjoyed it. Communication
is a good-you know, everything is communication.
9
CE: Yes (both laugh).
WH: That's what they teach you. And it's-you know, it's something that we do all the time so I
think it's easy-like why I would take classes-that would be like taking a class on breathing;
it's kind of bullshit, right? It's pretty self evident! But it's like, that's not the case; and it's like a
discipline that mixes-kind of like, psychology and sociology; kind of flavor and so-I'm
curious about people and how they work, and stuff like that so it was a good fit for me. Yeah.
What else am I going to say-you got-that's a solid break. I saw you write something
down-you have a question?
CE: No, I mean-one thing I just want to ask you too is that you mentioned the Honors
Program. I just-hold on, let me-so I guess, can you describe one highlight and difficulty of
every year you had? Freshmen year, you briefly mentioned it was really impactful on your end,
but just like-I guess were the most memorable highlights every year and maybe ohhh [editor's
note: not so much]?
WH: Oh, good question. Jeez. I think probably-my first year of college, definitely the hardest
to think of a low-light. I had my least levels of commitment-well, no, that's pretty easy. During
welcome weekend, they had these-you know, they break you into these neighborhoods. You
know, force people into settings where they force people to get to know people; you know, team
builder-kind of pit-the-neighborhood-against-each-other kind of stuff and so, they had this
kind of obstacle course thing-these inflatable obstacle course thing in Murphy Square and my
team was down a person. So I was designated, go-through-twice person and so-we ended up
losing (both laugh). Anyways, later we-maybe it took like an hour, I don't know-it's over,
time has passed; we're like done, walking back, and I was like, Oww, my wrist is kind
of-feeling like-you know, not sprained; what am I trying to say? You know, you just like jam
it; kind oflike eesh [editor's note: noise of pain]. You know, let that heal up over a couple of
days. So I'm like, you know-okay, I'll wait this one out and like, a week goes by; a week and a
half and like, okay. It's not getting any better and it's not getting any worse; it really didn't hurt
that bad. It really just like-it really just kind of-really hurt when I rotated my wrist and there
was kind of like a clacking sound so I was like, Okay; maybe I should get it checked out by a
professional. And by the time I ended up sitting down with a doctor, I think a couple of weeks
had passed and so I go in, I tell him my symptoms, and he like presses his hand up against my
wrists and has me rotate it, and there's no clacking. And so like-he's like, Yeah. In ten seconds,
this guy had diagnosed [that] I tore the ligament in my wrist somehow-it's actually like a
common injury for golfers and I guess normallyCE: (laughs), I'm sorry, that's so funny.
WH:-(laughs) I just remember him telling me that and like, fuck golf, but he was amazed
because normally, it's pretty painful-it's like something you notice. It's something you like, oh
huh. But for the life of me, I didn't-like, there wasn't a moment I was going through the
obstacle course and I like landed-caught myself and said, Ohh rough, jeez. That's what I did it!
It was afterward I was like, Oh, I must have screwed it up there. And like, if I had gone in right
away, they could have just like put me in an arm's cast and it would have healed itself up. But
10
because I had waited too long, it was like too damaged and so, they had to take membrane from
the top of wrist-like extra membrane-and tie together a new ligament. So I was like in a
cast-from like November until like-I think I had it off before class was out, so like March or
April.
CE: Wow.
WH: So like, most of the year (laughs). Kind of a bummer. I supposed that was probably the
lowlight-maybe living in Urness. Urness sucks. Augsburg's Residence Life Department-what
they force students to do with the meal plan crap is just like ridiculously expensive and just kind
of like-sus [editor's note: suspect]. The buildings are not great; probably moldy and all that
kind of crap (laughs).
CE: Yeah
WH: So that wasn't good.
CE: Urness is the freshmen dorm, right?
WH: Yes. Urness is the freshmen dorm-first year dorm. Except there was so many first years
for me, that there was spillover. So some of the first-years lived in Mort but I was unlucky and I
was up in Urness. And I guess a highlight-hmm. Honestly, maybe it would be my time in the
program because there was really-those classes anyways were really just-heady, thought-kind
of question stuff, so that was really kind of up my alley. Philosophy-stuff. So you know,
yeah-real easy to show up and be active when it's a topic you care about. Sophomore year, the
lowlights get easier.
CE: (laughs) Oh.
WH: It's 2016, so like the whole presidential election, you know. That was like another
radicalizing force in my life-everything going around with that. I like-like election night, I
found out my mom had just left an abusive-what I found out that night was an abusive
relationship. Like, sneak out of the house and shit. So I went up to one of the local smoke spots
where stoners go and like-when I left, Hillary was up big and then, we like got there and sat
and my mom called me. And I find all this out, have a conversation, we walk back, and I walk
back and by that time-maybe an hour had passed?-and like, Trump was for sure going to win
at this point and it was like Aww, fuck. So like, things change (laughs), things change. That was
kind of a big awakening, kind of, for me. And also, that was part of my lowest points as a film
major. I was just kind of feeling-like those classes that I took, I wasn't too interested in; I was
just kind of feeling like-not quite out of place; out of place isn't quite right, but kind of just
like-I don't want to like; I don't know. You just need a camera and ideas and you go out and
make a movie; that's all you need. But like, Augsburg's film equipment and all that stuff isn't the
most robust; you know, it's pretty, kind of, scrappy, which is kind of cool; I like that vibe. But so,
yeah-it was like scrappy stuff and like-a couple of-I liked some of the film professors but
some of the other ones I was just like-they weren't great. It's one thing to know what you're
11
doing, and it's another thing to teach what you do; and so, I just like jeez. What am I doing?
These classes aren't that great; I don't really feel like I'm doing that great in them. And that was
the only year-that was the year I got a B? Yeah, that was like the only semester I got anything
lower than a 4.0 was that year. Which is like-I don't know, I had somehow-I just kind of like
felt-because going into college, especially as a film major, GPA doesn't fucking matter. And it
still doesn't out of college; nobody asks me about my GPA, it's not getting me anything. Grad
school is maybe a different story but like, I didn't really care; you know, I'm just going to give it
my best and the GPA I get is the GPA I get. And then that first semester I got that 4.0 and then,
the second semester I got a 4.0 and it's like, let's see how long I can keep this going. So by the
end of my time, I really cared only because it was like, Geez. I made it this far; is it going to be
this class that finally does it? That would be kind of like-you know, all the prior struggle would
then be kind of like-pointless or whatever. I think what else-what else is sophomore year?
That was kind of a rough year.
Oh fuck. I mean jeez, I lived in a floorhouse that year too with a bunch of other people in
the Honors Program, and that was just like not a good living arrangement. A floorhouse is
fourteen people sharing a-almost like their own wing of a dorm. You have one shared living
space; two big bathrooms with multiple stalls-think like public-bathrooms looking kind of
bathrooms-and then like a big old kitchen with two large refrigerators and like, a giant stove
and a whole bunch of cabinet space and stuff. If it's the birds-eye view of the floorplan, the
bathrooms are in the center of the donut and the kitchen is in the lower-right and the living,
communal space is right above the kitchen and the rest of it-kind of c-shaped-was where the
rooms are. And there were only two single rooms; everybody else had to have a roommate and
so like-just living with that many people and just sharing all of that-because it was a shared
communal space and I had a roommate in my room as well-I just didn't have-it was very rare
you had any kind of actual alone time in a space like that. And that is something I value and
really need, so that just kind of takes its toll after awhile.
Also, I don't want to come at people too much, but I was the only Black-no, that's
not-Briana was also in there, jeez! But she was smart; she was never there. She lived there; she
slept there; but other than that, she was never in there and that was the best thing anybody could
have done. And Sam-jeez. But he also-my RA [editor's note: Resident Advisor]-he was
never there either (laughs). He was-that was good. He was a good RA. Anyways (phone
ringing in background), everybody else was white. White (emphasis on h); you know, that kind.
So you know-it was that point in my life where-especially after the election-I like
to--discuss, debate-I like to talk about things; I don't shy away from that. Kind of like, coming
into differences of opinions; conflicts on things with like people that like-you know, we're all
liberal; we're all Augsburg liberal, kind of "bubble" was the buzzword of that time-and that's
when I started to see where the cracks in that are and it's like-it's not enough to be-like being
liberal isn't really all that great of a thing to be. Right, it's the whole, vague progressivism calls
for diversity and inclusion that don't have any analysis for power dynamics or hierarchy or
structures. And like, the other people that lived there were liberal so like-I like-yeah, living
with them and bouncing ideas off of them and stuff also contributed-I was like okay. So I am
not like-maybe I'm not a liberal, right. Because going into Augsburg, I was like, Okay, maybe I
can be liberal. Like after my first year I was like, Okay, chill. After that year, I was like, Okay. I
am definitely not a conservative but I am like, you know; there's something beyond all of this. I
12
had also read-maybe
States.
a highlight of that year, truthfully-is
a Peoples History of the United
CE: By Howard Zinn?
WH: It was-yeah, by Howard Zinn. After I graduated from high school, my mom-in my grad
party, my mom gave it to me. She was like, "Now that you've got your public education, get
educated," you know. And she never read it-I don't know how it got on her radar, but
yeah-one of the best gifts she gave me because that really kind of exposed-I like finished
reading it around the time the election happened too. It was like a lot of things folded into each
other and happened in rapid succession there where like-I kind of just started to broaden my
scope even further.
Junior year (exhales). Junior year was rough. Only surpassed by senior year by how hard
it was.
CE: Yeah.
WH: I like-had personal stuff going on in my life that sent me down a deep, deep depression
and so-right, struggling through that and being a student-that shit ain't easy (laughs). And I
also-so like, we entered that floorhouse; we all were friends-several people were dating each
other-
CE: Oh, no!
WH: Big, big yike. And-by the end of that-I don't think anybody-nobody was still together
and a lot of friendships-we definitely weren't all collectively still friends; people still had
friends but things kind of splintered. My junior year had all this-I kind of lost the friends I
gained as a first year in college and had all this other crap going on, so that was kind of rought.
I'm trying to think of a highlight-yeah, that's easy! So like junior year, that's when I was
having that semester when I was taking both those film classes and so-I was feeling
academically, at the time. I had some of my best film classes and that's when I like first-the
more professional set was that spring; like really cool.
And then I worked for Residence Life that year. Let's talk about that-if we're talking
about the history of Augsburg, we got to talk about what that perspective is like; get that in the
book. That's a crap institution to work for and they treat their workers like ass and that was when
like-I really-yeah, you know, it's funny. People think-the pop culture of what college is like
is that it's full of these hippie Marxist professors that tum people into commies and like really
(laughs), I did end up that way but it was not because I had-well I had one-but for the most
part, I did not have hippie, communist professors. It was because there were liberals who still
believe in capitalism, and capital relations, and work relations, and power dynamics and kind of
slow, incrementalism, white moderate crap, but want put that ribbon of diversity on there; you
know. So Residence Life was like that; Residence Life was a weird job. It was like-most people
weren't white, which was really nice actually; that's the only job I ever had that was like that. So
that was really chill (laughs). The only good thing about it probably. But like, they pay
you-they pay you half in a stipend/discount on your housing and then half in bi-weekly
13
paychecks. The housing stipend only is enough-unlike pretty much every other RA I've talked
to from higher academic places, like the University of Minnesota-other friends I've had who
were RA's and stuff-they all had free room and board. You know, a pretty standard, kind of
like, Why the hell else would you be an RA-kind of thing? That's the deal there. Not at Augsburg
(laughs). You get free room and board if you are in RA in a first year dorm-in Urness; but you
still have to pay for a meal plan, especially because Urness doesn't have any kind of
cooking-thing. There's a 'kitchen' on the first floor that's like a really, kind of, rinky-dink-it
would really be a struggle to like to feed oneself like fully using the Urness kitchen.
So, I worked in Mort-the second, kind-of cheapest place to be an RA, only a couple
thousand more than Urness. So like, even then, the amount of money that was given to me for
my housing was equal to the amount that I had to pay for housing on top of that-so it kind of
cancelled itself out-no wait! It's even worse than that! The amount of money I got in stipend
for housing, plus the paychecks-combined
with how much I had to pay to live there for the rest
of the year--cancelled each other year. So I essentially worked for free but also, lived for free. It
was kind of the trade there. But like, I also had to still have a meal plan even though there are
kitchens in Mort; they still force you to buy into that kind of crap and like-it's just kind of one
of those-really when I started to realize the absurdity and like, What are people even doing?
Kind of organizational structure-like how that kind of business practice works-as an RA, we
were pretty-you know, the boots-on-the-ground-with
the residence. You know, I lived with
these people. My personal philosophy was that like-Residence Life, they wanted you to be like
everybody's best friend and like hitting people up all the time-and especially in Mort, when it
tended to be upperclassmen-that's
not really what people wanted. People wanted to be left
alone; do their own thing and study or whatever. It was kind oflike, I'm here if you need me but
like-they didn't want a babysitter. I didn't want to babysit grownass people older than me so
(laughs). So they had that; they had weekly, nightly programming of activities and things that
like-none of the residents-just a small handful of residents go to; but by-and-large, nobody
was interested in or go to. We're openly mocked and like-we all thought it was kind of crap; all
the other RA's, and even some of the other professional staff, you know. If you got them to be
more comfortable enough with you, they would admit it was kind of bullshit; but because that
was the mandate from the top-down, we had to keep doing this shit, and just like wasting money
and all of our time on crap that like-nobody wanted!
And so much of it was like-when I started at Augsburg, they started this thing that was
like "Green by 2019." By the time, it was supposed to be a carbon-neutral campus and I
think-maybe I'm remembering it wrong-but I think a part of that was like, trying to-I don't
know if they were trying to be paper free, but really ditch that and-ahh. The amount of paper I
wasted as an RA-the flyers we had to print over and over again for things these things that
happened every week but it was like a new topic or a different date, we would have to print out
the same thing over and over again with just like different words typed on it and just like-all
just a waste.
And I did the math and-not including the block stipend-like the discount-the amount
you get paid week-to-week-how
much they pay you versus how many hours they expect you to
work-I think I was making like-it was less than five bucks an hour. It was nuts; it just was like
total crap. And this was when Minneapolis-that year as an RA was when the fifteen dollar
minimum wage was passed here and so like-they didn't just jump from seven-whatever to
fifteen, but like-people are starting to raise it. So it was just really crap and exploitative and
14
they just pray on these young people that don't know better, you know? Don't know-want to
trust (laughs) these people-that buy into the culture of Augsburg and all that. But yeah; so that
really kind of-by the time I was done as an RA, I was just like really, really over it and was
already-like I wasn't a socialist yet but I was starting to get there.Big part because of Residence
Life. And even like liberals were like-Alright-that's
when I remember about starting to hear
jokes about late capitalism. It was a pretty-that's the thing; everybody was aware about how
crappy it was, so people would like-our bosses included would make jokes about, "You know,
that's capitalism!" but it's kind of like-we all know we can make these changes; we have ideas
for how it could be better; and we to pitch it, you know? We really tried to convince people that
we shouldn't be doing this nightly programming and they just wouldn't hear us out-wouldn't
listen to us. Kind of crap. And they know-I think it's honestly part of their business model. It
really is a shit job and it's really burnt out because you ended up working more hours
than-you're supposed to really. I really didn't do that, because-so much of it was kind of
bullshit.
Prior to going into this, I was kind of in my head like, What am I going to say about my
time at Augsburg and what college is and big takeaways and it's kind of like-one of the big
takeaways is [editor's note: college] is a time when you figure out what needs to get done and
what shit you can let go, you know? What can slide. Like priorities. What matters (laughs). So, I
would prioritze the stuff that mattered so I could still have a work-life balance, which was
already wack because I lived where I worked. That's just RA-I was always on the job as soon
as I stepped out of my room. And I had roommates-like I was technically always working.
Yeah, it was kind of just like-by the end, you could really just see through the crap and knew
(laughs) it would be better if the people actually doing the work-it was the people deciding how
the work was done.
CE: Now, senior year!
WH: Senior year. Senior year was a real rough one for several reasons. One of the bigger ones
being it was-in October-I think it was before the stuff went down in the Honors Program, or
around the same time-that the UN [editor's note: United Nation's] Climate Report came out
and said, Hey, we got a decade to figure this shit out or otherwise, bye-bye human species! And
that-I am still grappling with that. You know, climate grief or whatever they call it; yeah, that
shit is rough. Real existentialist threat there (laughs). So, that had me spiraling and then
yeah-the Honors Program. I wasn't just in the program; sophomore through senior years I was
in a kind of student-advocate role. They called us the House Presidents and split us off into four
houses-kind of like Harry Potter but like, not really. They didn't really mean anything; my first
year they kind of did because they had monthly meetings which were mandatory-you had to
show up so you actually planned stuff and did things. But after that year, enough people
complained so they were like, Okay, people are sick of this; these meetings won't be mandatory
anymore. So participation dropped and I am kind of too blame, because I was technically in
charge of that shit for three years and never really did-you know, I could have done a lot more
and help foster a community and get shit going. I just didn't, really. But so, I was one of the
co-presidents of Griffin House, which is the events house and I was also on the-so my first year
in the program was the director's first year as director and my sophomore year-after some
complaints about Larry Crockett-I think mostly Crockett, but I think also some other-yeah,
15
definitely some other professors in the program being kind of racist or sexist or x,y,z-they got
this diversity committee going and so I was like, shit; alright, I'll join. So that's why I was also
on the diversity committee (phone ringing in background) and so my sophomore year was mostly
talking to people about what they wanted. Junior year was mostly about coming up with plans
and a proposal for what the program could do to be better.
And then senior year, things kind of imploded (laughs) because-so, there were
complaints about Larry Crockett and the diversity thing was created and that first class that he
thought-enough people were like, This is a fucking problem that he got taken out of the class;
so he wasn't teaching it anymore after my sophomore year-my first year as a House President.
Then Phil taught it-the reason Crockett taught that class in the first place was because it was his
pride because Crockett was a former director, so it was one of his projects. It made sense to a
have a new director teaching this class and say, Yay! It's not Crockett-you know, we're in good
hands! Well, it turns out we weren't in good hands (laughs). Phil Adamo likes to play devil's
advocate and he's like a-racist, sexist, ableistjerk. Made fun of people with disabilities; really
insensitive. I never had a class with him, so I'm not-my first hand experience with Phil is a
limited in the scope outside of-in terms of race and personal decorum, so those are other
people's stories to tell. But my experience with him was like-he didn't really end up doing
anything while he was director. So like, the program is a beast and it's very illusive and no one
really knew how it worked, except for some of the student staff that worked for the
program-the Honor's Desk-so he really relied on them to figure it out. And it made sense for
the first couple years but then he never really ended up taking the reigns over-so that was kind
of a problem. He, under the guise of 'democratic'-you
know, "I'll let the people speak and be in
charge of the good!"-and I'm glad he did, it helped contribute to why he's not in charge of the
program anymore, you know (laughs )-he kind of set up his own demise. So with the diversity
committee, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to get on this! He was like, Oh; you students
who don't really know what the hell you're doing-you figure it out and tell me what I got to do
and I'll do it! So, things never really got done and people shuffled in and out-and then when
things got done, because he was top dog, he got to take credit for the big strides the program is
taking when he's not doing any of the work.
But in that class Crockett was taken out of, Phil-the year before, my junior year-so
part of it was criticized for being too white, too male in his curriculum. And so, Phil comes in
with a very liberal, very surface-level identity of, Okay! We're going to come in and diversify it
up and all this yadda, yadda crap. And so, he's teaching James Baldwin-which is good right,
because people ought to be reading Baldwin-but so, this is James Baldwin we're talking about
here so the n-word in his book. Was it the The Fire Next Time Both Years?
CE: Yes.
WH: Okay (laughs). Both years, he says the n-word. Like, he says the slur-not just the-like
the actual slur. And (laughs) students in my junior year-I wasn't fully in the loop but people
were like, Hey, that's not fucking cool, and talked to him about it and he's like, Hey okay. Kind
of the understanding of lesson learned; won't do that again. Kind of weird that like this
near-retirement person has to learn this lesson now, but okay; not going to happen again and
that's what matters. But like-he didn't learn shit! So he comes along the very next year and
same kind of problems and he's trying to pull this devil's advocate bullshit, "Isn't it giving to the
16
word to be afraid to say it?" and that kind of crap. Academic freedom was what he tried to hide
behind. But really, it was about what kind of classroom environment are you going to have, and
is it really safe for the diverse range of students that Augsburg calls its bread and butter? You
know, they put it all in the marketing materials that this is a good place to be but, (laughs)
really-in my time here, it kind of became clear they just care about getting asses in seats;
numbers in books; and faces on marketing materials. When it comes to the actual analysis of
power dynamics and relations and how these actual-how racism actually works and is upheld
and things like that, the liberal critique is not enough to actually take these things down. It's too
focused on individualistic and personal responsibility and that kind of crap (laughs).
So, that happened on a Tuesday and I found out-did I find out the next day then?
Wednesday? Maybe I found out Tuesday because I was a student leader-as a House President,
students start coming to the other presidents and we start to get filled in the loop that-this is
super wack, I don't want to come to class; what the fuck-so we felt like we had to do
something. Felt isn't even the right word; we had to do something. So, Wednesday we were like,
Okay. We know something happened-we know it happened so we're going to do something
about it. So, we sent an email to everybody in the program and Thursday a couple of us-not me,
but a couple of people-went to his classroom to monitor the situation and make sure people
were okay and talk to them. And he really exploded and like-got really defensive and
aggressive and hostile. And like Phil-he's a really good-he's a really good lecturer. He's a
very good orator; very good with words. He's a good speaker; he's got that charisma on a
face-value, so he uses that in personal relationships so like-he can kind of gaslight you,
manipulate you, and tum situations on their head-shot I don't want to bounce the table-so it's
very hard then, in retrospect, to say, "Oh, he did this," because it's so subtle and so whatever
that-having documentation or video evidence or audio is really kind of the only way-you have
to be there and hear it out to really get what was going on. So he got recorded and stuff and he
freaked out.
That Friday then-because that happened on a Thursday-, the class was suspended.
Campus administration finds out me, and the other House Presidents, and people that had
stepped in-people that were in the class-met with a couple of-I remember the Dean of
Students; Chief Diversity Officer; and like-who other?
CE: Vice PresidentWH: Yeah, the Vice President of Student Affairs. Not like the top-top dogs, but right, top people.
You know, we felt the meeting went well; they were very distraught-visibility distraught-by
what happened, and they were sympathetic and very much on our sides. We agreed on next
steps-like, he wasn't going to teaching the class anymore but we weren't going to cancel the
class. We were going to find a professor for the class that students could all rally behind-who
they enjoyed, who could then take over the rest of it and stuff. One of the other complaints he
had-they didn't get to it yet, but one of the texts that was down the road for the class was really
Islamophobic. He'd been confronted about it earlier and refused to take it off the curriculum, so
we got them to be like, We shouldn't be teaching that book and stuff.
So, the weekend happens and like, we knew a,llthis stuff-these people we'd have this
conversation with. But like-there's a hundred people in the program and like-basically, a
hundred people didn't know what the fuck was going on because they weren't in there and there
17
was no communication with them. So, we felt like we had to-like, people were owed an update,
especially the people in class were owed an update. You know, should they even show up to class
that next week? So, we sent out another communication that was very tame and mild that was
just-you know-things that we agreed upon with that adminstration in that meeting. And they
came at us like we were making shit it. It was very much like-they told us-they legit told us
that they were not there doing damage control, but that's exactly what they were doing and that's
what they continued to do; so, we had to keep pushing for transparency and action to hold them
to their word. And, to do something about this and Phil.
He started freaking out right away being like, Academic Freedom! You can't fire me
because of (noises), but it's like-fucking, slow your roll here! You know, we want some real
justice here in this situation, which doesn't necessarily ostracizing someone. You know, best case
scenario would have been, Hey, learn and don't be a dick (laughs). But, that didn't happen. We
made an effort to get restorative justice practices used and circle work, but the campus-kind
of-co-opted that and took the teeth out of it and did it in performative ways. So, that was all a
very disheartening-he ended up removed from being the director of the program, but he kept
his job and then quietly retired. Maybe he was forced down because-the Minnesota's version of
the ACLU, they have some other acronym [editor's note: AAUP]-their guideline's are that like:
You can say that racial slur-the n-word-as long as it's-as you're saying the word; calling
someone the word; they see that different. Calling someone outright isn't okay, but speaking it is
okay somehow (laughs). They were like-Augsburg can't just fire him just for that because
they'd get their ass sued-so I've said other things-so like, other people kind of knew their
piece of the pie, but once we started to combine forces and really talk about what was going on
in the program; what was going on with Phil; it became very clear there was a long pattern of
manipulative-kind of abusive behavior that was way beyond the scope of saying then-word
class. As fucked up as that is, they could have nailed him on a whole lot of things: he was
threatening to take away people's scholarship-something he had no authority to do, anyway;
even if that could be justified, he wasn't in that sort of power position to do that-so like, a
whole lot of crap where like-I, anyway, think that if I was employer or something, I wouldn't
want that kind of behavior-that's not the kind of person you want in your workplace. I can't
understand why they tried to shield him.
And so, this all kind of unfolded over the next couple months. That happened in
October-November maybe?
CE: October.
WH: It was like the spring-it was second semester, January or February when I found out that
we was going to keep his job, finally. They stretched it way out and like-you know, they know
what they're doing. They know that we're students with our classes and like, we're going to
graduate in a couple of years so they just have to drag their feet. Eventually, anybody that
remembers what happens is gone-that's the thought process anyway, I think. And so, that was
just a very disheartening--disillusionment for me, where all these people-it wasn't like I was
like, Phil Adamo, my hero! Or anything, but was somebody I considered a colleague and I had
worked with and had a-you know, close isn't quite right, but a working-close relationship. I'd
seen him twice a week for three years (laughs), so that' a a lot of time to think you know
somebody and all that. And Augsburg-so like Phil and just, how the campus at large took
18
it-some of the other Honors professors and folks went on his side. So, when the Film professors
and some of the other professors I liked, I was really disappointed in their-take, you know; and
you'd feel like a jackass (laughs), you know, for having thought that-you know-I don't know;
that reaction to that event means they see me differently than I thought they did. You know, that
sucks (laughs) to figure that out.
So yeah, that also sent me-that, and that climate change thing really sent me spiraling.
And then, the combined burnout of being in my senior year, and taking a lot of classes, and
trying to wrap it all out with the stress of getting it done and finishing all that-really burned me
out. I'm still recovering, seriously. I'm just kind of now, I think, recuperating from the
burnout-the toll of the culmination of the four years of college plus that crap on top of it and
what it takes. So, that's maybe a lowlight.But also in that, you met some really great people. Not
met; I knew them-you know, we formed a much deeper bond and connection there, and that
was like-it sucks that all that shit had to go down for that to happen, but I'm glad those
relationships formed.
Oh jeez, I suppose-in between my junior and senior year was really when I started
to-that's when I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X and I started to like actually read
socialist literature. I found my way to being anti-capitalist via being anti-racist, you know? Your
race analysis critique isn't complete if you're not taking in class and economics into the fold.
Like that's what-once you get out of the American public education system, that's what like
MLK, and Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers, and all these other Civil Rights folks were
talking about the whole time-and so, all of that kind of culminated. That year-kind of-sent
me pretty anti-yeah, I mean the reason Phil and this school were able to do that stuff because of
the power hierarchies there. Not that if there weren't any power hierarchies, people wouldn't still
be dicks, but it's like-people are dicks and then they're put into positions where they wield
absolute power over people and that's where shit get wacks, you know? (laughs)
CE: That was alot.
WH: That was alot, yeah (laughs).
CE: What would you say were the most impactful things that occured to you? I know the Honors
thing butWH: Yeah. The Honors thing but also-I didn't talk about it but I did URGO; undergraduate
research the summer between my sophomore and junior year and that was really impactful for
alot ofreasons. That kind of taught me a lot oflessons. I learned much more about life than what
I was researching-it was kind of creative project with me and two other film major friends. In
retrospect, I don't know how that-if I was in URGO's position and they came to me with that
project, I would have turned it down, you know? Like I'm glad they let us do it and it was
important to be learned, but it was kind of crap. It wasn't great. Since then, I think URGO's since
changed their application process; but, they were open to creative projects, but there had been
initially been so much more STEM-focused, it was kind of hard to fit into their-required boxes
of what you needed to have, and do, and be a creative project. So, we ended up with this kind of
Frankenstein-project that was not really legitimately-like we tried to do research and tried to be
creative, so we half-assed both. If we would have done or the other, it would have been solid but
19
we tried to do to much. We felt like we needed to justify them giving us that much money to
make a movie or something, so we felt like we needed to have some
academic-research-rigorous kind of thing.
So we did it that summer and like-you know, I think my experience was different than
my two partners on it; so much of what I did was bullshit. Like, you're supposed to work
forty-hours a week, and there's no way I was pulling anywhere close to that much time (laughs)
at all working on the stuff I had to do. But I was still doing what I needed to do at the same time,
so like-that was really kind of-that was my first time I supposed to do the forty-hour work
week and I learned that's crap. I don't know-that wasn't my tempo anyways; and so I learned
that, and how to do that kind of stuff. But really, that summer, we-just me and my professor,
who advised the project, presented our findings at this conference in New Mexico.
CE: What year was this?
WH: That would have been 20-2018, in between junior and senior year. Yeah.
CE: When you presented it?
WH: Yeah, when I presented it. And that was kind of like-I'm still-at that point, I was more
considering-I was starting to wrap up my college career and I still didn't really know what I
wanted to do, you know? So I was kind of being like, hmm, you know? Is teaching or being a
professor something I want to do? It's still kind of rattling around in the back of my brain, but I
was lot more like, "Aww jeez, maybe that's it!" for me to do. So, that experience-this academic
thing and meeting a bunch of people that like do what I thought I might want to do-was really
nice and cool to learn. And it was kind of like-I knew what I had done was kind of bullshit and
the project was bullshit-and it was a project that I loved very dear, but it was kind of bull-but
like going to this thing-and these were like grown ass people; professors; people who are
supposed to be teaching people like me-and like, somehow, my bullshit project ended up
being-and there's alot of stuff going on there, so I couldn't see it all; so who know, perhaps
maybe I saw all the bad research and all the bad presentations-but like, yeah!
I was blown away my project was hanging there, right alongside projects by people who
were double my age; people who had been doing this longer than I had been alive, you know?
And they had film screenings there-films made by professors that were like some of the worst
movies I had every seen! It was kind of like, Okay, jeez-opposite of-everybody else got
knocked down a peg in my mind. Like, movies are hard and we're all just kind of scrambling
good stuff and like-prior to that, I felt very much like I had no grasp in terms of where I stacked
up to anybody-like if I actually had any type of skill; any kind of merit to the stuff I was
making-so that conference was really nice because it gave me alot of confidence. I wasn't like,
"Wow!"-my project was still bullshit-but all of this was kind of bull and everybody was
scrambling around. So yeah, learning that lesson that nobody's really better or worse than
anybody else was kind of a precursor then to my senior year, where I really just-kind of lost
faith in everything and being like, it's all kind of-crap, a little bit.
So yeah, I think that was really one of the main, impactful things. I'm trying to think
what else-it's all kind of impactful. My junior year, I made a movie for one of my classes than
ended up in the Minneapolis Film Festival this fall.
20
CE: Oh yeah!
WH: Yeah! So that was really cool and that was just really gratifying thing to watch, you
know-something I had made up on something that's like a movie-theater size screen. Because
like my junior year, I had made it into a couple of other film festivals-there's this film festival
called, The Mespies, here in Minneapolis that plays-well, it's actually in Columbia Heights.
They play in a movie theater in Columbia Heights and I got in and they're going to play my
movies! But they screwed up-something got messed up and screwed up and they couldn't play
my files; so even though I got into the festival-and I have it on my resume that my movies were
accepted and screened-they didn't actually show my movies. So, that was really-kind
of-disheartening moment. Like, I was already down in the dumps and stuff, and-I invited
people out there to see it and I didn't have a lot of people to invite in the first place-which I was
sad about-and then the four of the people that showed up, they couldn't even watch. My stuff
couldn't even show. So the next year, to be in a much more like legitimate-not legitimate,
because The Mespies are cool and they're all legitimate; people make an art-but like, yes,
bigger scale-type of thing and actually get to see it; that was really cool. Like if I never make a
movie again, I've got that experience.
CE: Yeah! That's actually super dope! Congrats, that's awesome!
WH: Thank you.
CE: Yeah, I don't want to talk more about the Honors Program. Want to mention anything else? I
guess, what would you say were the results of it?
WH: The results of what? Of Augsburg?
CE: Oh, the Honors Program.
WH: The Honors Program?
CE: Like afterwards, because you intensely involved in your senior year.
WH: So I mean, I was kind of intensely involved and part of that, then, was like-Augsburg
loves its committees, so there was a committee to investigate the program and figure out what
needed to be done. I was kind of of the opinion that we should nuke the whole thing (both
laugh); like, let it go. Or just like, have it so reimagined that to even call it the Honors Program
wouldn't quite be right. Things ended up being slow and taking a lot longer than we had initially
thought we would or talked about being like; once again, I think that's kind of part of that thing
that university administrations know-they can just drag their feet and the passion will die down
because people just lose faith or move on or graduate, whatever. This committee that I was on
that tried to investigate the program was really taking baby steps and so like-I was graduating,
so I wasn't keep doing it-so I was like, Hey, you know, like make sure-like I didn't
really-part of the reason I became president in the first place and why I stuck around and got
involved was because the program is really white. I was one--once again, I was one of the only
21
Black people in the program. I think the only Black man in my year in the program and so I was
kind of like-my perspective is one that could come in handy in these situations (laughs), you
know? And so, didn't quite have faith that they would keep fighting without me and I've heard
this year from people at this school, it sounds like they're not kind of quite-I'm not involved
anymore so perhaps what they've uncovered led them in a different direct than we were thinking,
but they're not doing what we talked about when we were still involved.
But like, the good that has come out of it is that people-we really started to understand
how power works at this institution and how seeded these problems are; it isn't just an asshole
professor here or there-it really is the whole structure of how things are run and who's in
charge and so. I think maybe not getting what would have been best situation with Phil Adamo
broadened our scope of like, Okay; we can't fix this, but how can we make it so that kind of shit
doesn't happen anymore? So, there's efforts right now too, to try to get more wide-systemic
change at the campus that I've been involved in, but other people are really starting to take up
the mantle more-since I am an alumni, I am slowly starting to move on.
So, that's a good one. And yeah, I supposed my takeaway-I was already skeptical of
things, but-now I am very skeptical of all institutions, and I think that is a healthy thing, you
know? I think that's a good-I think it's good to-like showing up at Augsburg, I was saying yes
to everything-that's also how I entered the program, because I was asked, you know? And I
became a president and I think somebody like-I think I might have been nominated, but kind of
fell into a lot of the things I ended up doing. Kind of with the, "Oh yeah, come on! This all
seems good," you know? Having good faith in everything. Like I want to trust people and
believe people are good-and if you're not going to have love for people, what are you doing
around here?-but now, I am a lot more-I will be asking questions about why are we doing
things the way we're doing? Residence Life kind of taught me that; like why-you know,
because people want to be kind of marching along with the ways things are done; even when we
all know the ways the things are being done aren't good (laughs), you know? Not only are they
not great, they're not necessary.
CE: Well, to put in on record, we got a lot of things dones. MSS [editor's note: Multicultural
Student Services] are fully staffed now, full time; we also had Joanne Reecke's position to
full-time-Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer; dismantled the Honors Program-which was a
good thing, for the most part; and I would say we also broke the glass ceiling. We made it visible
that Augsburg was not a liberal utopia.
WH: Yeah, for sure; the atmosphere on campus really change and like-people were-people
knew, but a lot of people-the people that were not really helping the people that needed the
help, they thought Augsburg really was what it was selling and so-having that big, public
rupture and having students stand up for themselves kind of forced them to grapple with that.
CE: Just want to put it on record, that was because of student efforts, not because of Augsburg's
administration's efforts.
WH: Yes, exactly.
CE: Students pushed for that.
22
WH: Yes! And I was like-ten ofus really got that going. It ended up being more than
that-with other folks, I probably don't even know, doing stuff-but yes, that was also another
good lesson. If like ten, burn-out, clueless student can make that kind of change that rapidly,
what can we do?
CE: Facts! So, I have a few more questions. So, I have to ask to ask this question: do you think
Augsburg fulfilled their mission statement for you?
WH: Could you read the mission statement for me?
CE: Alright. "Augsburg University educates students to be infonned citizens, thoughtful
stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. The Augsburg experience is supported by an
engaged community that is committed to intentional diversity in its life and work."
WH: I think maybe, but probably not in the way that Augsburg expected (laughs). Like what
they think that means and what I think all that means, and like what all that is for me-definitely
became a lot more critical of a thinker here, you know? Hopefully informed and thoughtful. So
yeah. The part that's bullshit here is really the second part of this: the engaged community
dedicated to intentional diversity. Committed to intentional diversity; I think that's true.
Augsburg intentionally changed how they recruit students into this school; about fifteen years
ago, it was pretty much just white people. Now, it's majority non-white, right? So like-that
exposure-they fulfilled their promise, but that opened with it the faultlines of what that leaves
out and what-diversity for what, you know? What's it for, you know? Is it just to pad your
number and try to get good press? Or is it to like actually support and help marginalized people
in this world? If that's what they mean by intentional diversity, I think they're missing the mark.
But if they mean just like getting people here (laughs), they did it. I went to Augsburg.
CE: Do you think the Augsburg experience prepared you for your career?
WH: No. I mean I only have the job I have right now because of Augsburg and my academic
advisory. My academic advisor has like-not quite; I don't know if friend is quite the right word.
Colleague?-some kind of relationship with people where I work in advertising and one of the
PR-kind of the head PR dude where I work-knows Bob and he had kind of deal because he
does an internship-three internships a year: spring, fall, and summer. So like, my academic
advisor kept having really good-like kept recommending really good people, so they just made
an arrangement that he would come to him for-he would be like, "Hey! Find me my next
intern," and so he would pick people. I was lucky enough that he liked me and recommended me,
so I was an intern there and I was doing copywriting-which what I am doing now; I am doing
video stuff. But just because I was an intern there a couple months last fall, they knew who I
was; then I ran into him randomly and he was like, "Hey! Send me your resume, we might be
looking for video work," and then that's how I got my job. Now, I can-you know, I am making
my loan payments and paying my bills and-I'm still arguable paycheck-to-paycheck, but I am
not stressing because, Oh shit, maybe I should split money between groceries and-I have a bit
more of a padding. So I only have that because of my connections to Augsburg.
23
But, in terms of like-that's been another thing. I've been working at this job for months
now-yeah three months now. Oof, coming on four now, I supposed (laughs)-
CE: Wow.
WH: Yeah, wow. Time flies when you're grinding (both laugh). Just in that first month working
there, I learned so much more than I learned in my film classes at Augsburg. The film classes are
definitely a lot better on the philosophical and theoretical wherewithal when it comes to film;
when it comes to the technical stuff-and it's not even because they don't have the fancy
gear-like one of the classes I took was an editing class, and it had the same problem where-I
think the majority of the people weren't film majors and the other-there was a cluster of film
majors and even in that range, there was a wide-range of people who were in their first year; first
ever film class people-I think I took that maybe my senior year? I think I took that in the fall of
my senior year or maybe in the spring of my junior year-but I was wrapping up my time as a
film major. I only had a couple of classes left, so where I was and what I kind of needed out of
that class was kind of different from other people. So, because they were trying to make it a
class-if you didn't know shit about movies, that class was really hard because it was not-and
the professor wasn't the best, I don't think. Not a fan; I had classes with them and no.
Anyway. It wasn't a good fit for them; wasn't a good fit for me. And like, it was an
editing class in Adobe Premier, which is industry's standard of what movies are edited on these
days. And like-there's so many hard things and it's like kind of an obtuse-because it can do
alot, it's kind of a hard thing to jump into; not super user friendly out of the gate. But like even
now-shit, I could probably like roll in and get people more practical-you know, advice and
lessons for like how to use it and what to do than what I think I got in my time. That was kind of
disappointing.
I'm glad I learned that shit, and I am glad I went to Augsburg, and I am glad the film
program is how it was for a lot of reasons-me the freedom to be creative, but like, oh shit!
Jeez-it was kind of really disappointing that this program- that was dear to my heart with
professors that I like-don't have it. Didn't have it together enough to actually be
teaching-actually setting people up for success. I am really-I feel really in-over my head alot
on the job. You know, I am making it work-no doubt-but yeah, practically no thanks to
Augsburg's film classes. Really just through the time, experience, and hours spent in the
software tangentially working on projects in the film class, but not the classes about how to use
the gear. And then-kind of goes across the board, for editing and for also camera and using
lighting-I don't know how to light shit. If I was trying to work in Hollywood or really trying to
work in the industry-like I fell into advertising. So like, I'm making a living with film-with
like moving images-by accident almost. So, I'm like chill about it. But I was like going to film
school to be like Jordan Peele or Greta Gerwig-then like, Augsburg is not the film program for
you. They do not set you up for that level of work, which is kind of-which is good for me,
because that's not what I want; but, it's kind of a bummer.
CE: Do you have any advice for future Auggies?
WH: Oof, jeez. Get involved and pay attention to what the hell is going on. So many people
during my senior year-even in the Honors Program-were just like really out of the loop with
24
what was happening and at first, it was hard; the administration was being very obtuse and not
very transparent. But even when people were trying to get people to know and like understand
what was going on, people didn't know or didn't care to know; whatever.
And move off campus as soon as you possibly can. Seriously, like it's nuts. They make
you sign up-make you re-up your housing-super early in the year. They make you do it-is it
like February?
CE: Something like that, yeah.
WH: It's coming up around this time of the year, if it hasn't already happened, and like-you get
off campus and most places aren't listed a couple months before your lease. So if you're trying to
move someplace in September, you probably can't even find it-it's probably not even up for
grabs until maybe May. Like maybe when school's getting out for the year (laughs). So yeah,
they do that to make you be like, Oh jeez! Don't have any other options, have to move back on
campus. So yeah, seriously. You'll save so much money. It's ridiculous how much money I saved
moving on campus, even thought I'm paying for utilities and paying rent and paying for
transportation to and from school. And not even a meal plan-so much cheaper to not being on
campus. It really is, frankly, disgusting the way-what they do. But I think that's their bread and
butter-that's how they make money, is the room and board, so.
CE: Would you like to make any other comments about anything I didn't hit on? Talk about?
WH: Augsburg. You know-I ended up being involved, but I feel like I barely touched the
surface on everything that is going on at this school. There's a lot of dope people in their own
comers that just don't end up ever crossing paths for whatever reason: buildings are quartered off
by majors or whatever, but you know; yeah. I mean, hopefully they get it together and are
carbon-neutral by 2030. Carbon-free even better, because I hear carbon neutral and I think
carbon-credits, you know? That's not going-that's not enough. We can't offset it-we have to
stop.
So, we talked a lot about Augsburg but not about the neighborhood around it, you know,
like Cedar-Riverside. Really dope place-really glad I got to live in this part of the city for a
couple of years. Like Seward is right there-a lot fo really cool things going on in this
community and there's a healthy tradition of-you know, radical folks. Organizing, being
conscious. Art. Lots of cool stuff. So you know-Augsburg, with all of its problems, I have the
suspicion it's hardly unique to what a university is. You're probably going to find it everywhere.
So you know-I can't. I'm glad I did it. Am I proud to be an Auggie? I don't know about that!
But I am one, and that's something that's going to stick with me and even after all that and the
illusion/disillusionment, everything shattered-there's a place in my heart for Augsburg. There's
also-I kind of avoid it as much as I can; try not be here. It's complicated kind ofrelationship.
CE: Well, thank you! This is the end of the interview. So, I appreciate you again for your
willingness to be interviewed and I will send you a copy of the transcript. I loved everything you
said.
WH: Thank you.
25
CE: So thank you.
WH: No, thank you.
End of Interview
26
Show less
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Esch... Show more
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Eschenbacher
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:05
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher
education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher and I'm the assistant provost for experiential
learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
T
Tom Clawson 00:27
Yeah, my name is Tom Clawson. I am a student at Augsburg University going through their
family nurse practitioner DNP track. And currently I work at Regions Hospital and St. Paul in
their ICU. I've been there for about three years now in ICU and then two years previously in a
observation unit also at Regions.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:50
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being
interviewed and having a recording of the interview stored at Augsburg University where it
could be made available to the public.
T
Tom Clawson 01:03
Yes, I consent. Great,
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:04
Thank you. So to start out, could you tell me a little bit about your education background and
what your current currently studying at Augsburg
T
Tom Clawson 01:14
My education background in my undergrad I got my bachelor's in nursing science at North
Dakota State University. And then throughout working, I had a lot of interactions with the public
communities of underserved populations, and really felt a passion for working with people
experiencing homelessness. People from low income communities and looking through
different DNP programs, I saw that Augsburg really has a focus on helping underserved
communities in so Augsburg really spoke to me. And so I applied got in and my first two years
so far have just been extremely eye opening a lot of the first or a lot of the classes in the first
two years really focused on getting out in the community, helping to identify different ways to
work with people from various diverse backgrounds, helping to switch from kind of the
professional mindset more to just being a person listening to another person, and really taking
a step back and listening to what our patients have to tell us and listening to what kind of
situations and what kind of events happen in these patients lives to put them in the situation
that they are now. And so it's really helped to kind of shift from maybe a traditional like
blaming mindset to more about understanding and identifying and empathizing with patients
and empathizing with people in our community.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:57
Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being
engaged in community or in relationship to being able to create change in institutions?
T
Tom Clawson 03:10
Before coming to Augsburg, I was working just as a floor nurse. I was working overnights and so
I didn't feel that I had a huge impact in the unit politics, I didn't feel like I had a huge impact in
the community. I was kind of isolated to my own little bubble isolated, my own little unit.
Showed up at work, did what I needed to do, and felt like that's kind of where nursing ended.
And I felt like that's kind of where my scope ended. Whereas coming to Augsburg, we are
constantly having discussions about ways to improve the community a ways to get involved.
And identifying that nursing isn't just about passing meds and changing bandages. It's about
connecting with your patients, connecting with your community, stepping outside of your
comfort zone and getting involved to help provide resources help provide safe areas, helping to
provide safe spaces for people in the communities to come and share their struggles and be
heard and be listened to and be understood by individuals who can offer help and offer
assistance and just offer counseling. And so experts really helped to open up my scope and
really helped me to understand that there's a lot more to nursing than just going to a hospital
or clinic putting in your eight or 12 hours and heading home.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:43
So some of these questions overlap a little bit I can tell you kind of already answered my next
one, but I'll ask it anyway in case something new comes to mind. Has your view of the role of a
nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so how?
T
Tom Clawson 04:58
My view as the role of a nurse has definitely changed, Augsburg has helped me realize that,
again, nursing is about getting involved in your community and nursing is about offering
support in ways that aren't necessarily talked about in textbooks and ways that aren't
necessarily taught as your core foundational knowledge. Being a nurse is taking the resource
that you have in the expertise that you have and just offering it in formal as well as informal
settings.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:39
When you say formal and informal what comes to mind.
T
Tom Clawson 05:42
When I say formal settings, I guess I think of it more as like a clinical setting in a hospital
setting. And then informal setting, the Health Commons is it's been there for years, it's a formal
place that people experiencing homelessness can come and seek care. But I feel like a big part
of it is just trying to make it more personable and make it more community friendly. And so I
feel like taking away big titles taken away big signs saying help health care offered here, it
really takes helps to bridge a gap. And homeless populations in homeless communities, there's
a lot of mistrust, because I'm sure that many if not all of them have had situations in healthcare
where they go to a clinic, they go to a hospital, they feel judged, they feel blamed for their
situation, they don't feel like they can relate to the nurses, the healthcare staff there. And so
the Health Commons really excels at kind of breaking down those walls and really changing
healthcare from a formal hospital clinic setting to a community space where patients can come
they can ask for help, they can ask for resources, and coming from people who they interact
with on a weekly basis, they have learned to trust us and they've learned to trust the resources
that we have to offer. And so although we may offer resources or consults go to different
medical facilities, because it's coming from someplace that they trust, they'd be more apt to
going. And so at the Health Commons, we're very much I'd very much a bridge and very much
a way to connect people experience homelessness with resources that they desperately need.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:52
In your classes at Augsburg, have you had the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen
nurse, civic engagement or civic skills have they been discussed, and if so, which ones stand
out in your memory
T
Tom Clawson 08:08
The biggest one that stands out is the citizen nurse, it's, again, I don't need to be in a hospital
setting to be able to offer resources offer help. And so I've really taken that, that idea to heart
and use it to kind of step out of my comfort zone. And even at work when a family member
starts asking me about or starts sharing difficulties that they're having, and starts sharing
challenges that they need help working through. I'll step out of my clinical role more and help
kind of be that emotional support that they need. And I it just helps me to understand that
there's a lot more than I can do for not only patients but for their families for really anyone,
anyone that needs help, and anyone who asks for help.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:11
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because
of your educational experience at Augsburg?
T
Tom Clawson 09:22
I feel like I'm better equipped to lead change. I feel like I just haven't had the opportunity to get
involved in different groups for change at the hospital. With the past couple of years with
COVID it's been extremely stressful and then with school, it's hard to balance and create any
free time just to maintain my own sanity, let alone stepping up and trying to create change in
the hospital and in different healthcare settings. Which Augsburg I feel like has offered me a lot
of resources and a lot of valuable knowledge that I can use to enact change. It's just until
graduation, I don't know if I have the time or the just the time to commit to creating great
change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:20
Can you tell me about this is again, thinking about your your time at Augsburg in the classroom
or in your coursework, which experiences that you've had in the classroom and your
coursework? What kind of pedagogies helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen
professional or citizen nurse.
T
Tom Clawson 10:49
Some of the experience that really stood out to me is, and one of Katie's classes, we were able
to go to Breaking Free, which is a shelter for women who have been working, living in the life of
prostitution for X amount of years, and they need resources, they need help, they need support
to get out of it. And so the woman at the house that spoke to us, she worked in that life for I
think she said 15 or 20 years. And so she really understands what these women are going
through. And she understands that it's not just, "it's easy to just leave your abuser just step
away," it's she really broke it down to these women are taken, their social networks are broken
down, their support networks are all cut, they have nowhere to go except for the people
abusing them. And so it really opened my eyes. And I kind of really understood that people
aren't necessarily product of their choices, it's people are a product of their environments, and
the situations that happen around them. And so no matter how much these women sometimes
want to get out of this out of work into prostitution, they just don't have the resources, they
don't have the ability to get out of it. And so that was one experience. But anyone in a less than
desirable circumstance definitely has had experiences that put them in that position. And it's
not necessarily their fault. And if they're coming to me asking for help, I'm going to do
whatever I can to help get them the support that they need to help them create a better life for
themselves.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 12:48
So how did that experience at Breaking Free help illustrate citizen nurse for you?
T
Tom Clawson 13:01
It really helped me understand that, nursing is more than just clinical thinking. It's nursing is all
about getting involved in your community and helping to create a better community helping to
offer resources and even creating resources for networks of people who could use it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:30
Nice, thank you. Thinking again, about your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped
you better understand civic skills or some of the concepts we've been talking about in this
interview? And which concepts or issues were most challenging to grasp?
T
Tom Clawson 14:09
I feel like enacting policy is such an ethereal concept that we we learned skills, we learn how to
we learned the basic information that we should have in creating good policies and creating
policies that really think about the individuals being affected by them. But I feel like we haven't
really had a lot of experiences in writing policies or getting involved. And I feel like if for certain
classes if we had the ability to write up mock policies or have discussions for or against policies,
and if we were able to really have that dialogue and have that hands on tangible experience. I
feel like that would have been it certainly valuable in creating change in the future.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:02
Yeah, thanks. Have you taken politics of healthcare yet?
T
Tom Clawson 15:09
Yes. And when we were taking that class, that was when the murder of George Floyd
happened. And so a lot of our discussions were targeted at the systematic or systemic racism
that's happening. And so we really delve deep into the history of it. And we delve deep into how
we got to be where we are today. And so that I feel like was extremely important to discuss and
learn about, whereas moving forward, I feel like we just didn't have enough time in the class to
talk about how to change policies. And so the class was incredibly valuable. It's just, I feel like
some of the other classes should elaborate and build upon, and that creating policy and
creating policies and creating change shouldn't be restricted to just one class, and it should be
something continually touched upon.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:19
Did any of the course concepts like the ones we're talking about? Have they impacted your
current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 16:31
Trying to think of any specific formal examples that I have. I don't know how many formal
examples I have. But I know that I've definitely had patients come in with specific backgrounds.
I know that there's been a lot of patients of native backgrounds who have come in with heavy
alcohol use that's gotten worse over the past year or two in COVID. And through class at
Augsburg, we learned how the generational trauma has led to drug and alcohol abuse to cope
with traumas of the past, and the traumas of being forced off their lands and forced into
reservations. And so the compilation of all that trauma is just being expressed now today. And
so when patients of native backgrounds come in, with alcohol withdrawal with a cirrhosis from
drinking, end stage liver disease, pancreatitis, I feel like I used to blame these patients and say
like, it's not that hard, just don't drink. But now I feel like I have a lot more empathy for
everything that they've gone through everything that they and their families have experienced
over the past two, 300 years. And I feel like I just understand these patients a lot more, and I
tend to listen to them a lot more and understand where they're coming from, and I can
understand the challenges that they're facing every day.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:26
Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and
reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
T
Tom Clawson 18:39
I feel like a lot of the experiences that have offered the most value to me were the hands on
experiences getting out into the community. I know that it's been, it's been hard, because a lot
of these places that Augsburg used to go to has no longer allowed students just because
infection risk COVID and everything. And I think Katie has been the only instructor who is really
pushed and been able to reopen those doors and reopen those experiences. And so every time
that we've been able to get on the community and see different populations and see different
resources and see what these resources mean for this population, it really helps me understand
that we need to continue to do that offer taxpayer dollars to help keep these resources open
and help keep these facilities open for people who desperately need it. And so, previously,
before attending Augsburg I knew that free housing and community housing was important, but
I didn't quite understand to what extent it's to what extent it can change the lives of the people
affected by it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02
When you see it, then you understand. Now I recognize you're about halfway through your
program. But is there anything that you wished you'd learned at Augsburg, but you haven't
yet?
T
Tom Clawson 20:29
I'm excited to learn all the clinical hands on skills. But, again, I'll go back to saying, I wish that I
learned more about how to write policy, how to change policy and how to facilitate
conversations and get the ball rolling and really get things moving. Because I understand that
changing policy, creating change isn't about making grand large Roe versus Wade style
changes. It's about starting conversations and getting the ball rolling. It's about just kind of
placing those seeds and getting people to think about certain situations. I just wish that we had
more experience and taking it to the next level and taking further steps to enact change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:22
So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of
nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 21:36
I feel like the pandemic's kind of make me made me question how the how the public and how
upper management sees nurses and how they value nurses. Because throughout the
pandemic, there were many facilities that didn't have masks, gloves, anything upper
management was working from home, or if they didn't have any resources set up just wasn't
working at all, but still getting paid fully. Whereas a bunch of nurses were getting furloughed,
laid off. Community opinion at the start of the pandemic, nurses were heroes. And then as soon
as we started advocating for vaccines, nurses were now evil, the bad guys. Nurses didn't know
what we're talking about. And we're just trying to create COVID and spread lies and spread
fear. And so it's really kind of shook my understanding of how the public views nurses, and it's
kind of maybe a question, does the public still view nurses as important?
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:51
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare, could be big or small?
T
Tom Clawson 23:02
Think so, at work, my manager has been phenomenal in being transparent about what
resources we have things that she's doing. The way that she's stepping up and trying to
advocate for everyone on our unit. And so I feel like I've always been able to talk to my
manager, ask for things. And for the most part, it's, yep, we can make that happen. Whether
it's getting new supplies on the floor, whether it's changing how we do things, I feel like I've
had a voice in that respect. And I understand that that's just a very small piece of it. It's just
very unit specific. But as far as making big systemic changes to nursing, I don't really know how
much my voice has been heard or how much change I have outside of my specific floor at work.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:02
That's the end of my formal questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that I
didn't ask?
T
Tom Clawson 24:07
I don't. I don't think so.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:15
Great. Well, I really appreciate that you took the time and to hearing your insight and your
experience at Augsburg and in your profession. It's been great talking with you.
Show less
Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022)
5/7/2022 • 47:26
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies,
vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand
SPEAKERS
Timaka Wallace, Katie C... Show more
Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022)
5/7/2022 • 47:26
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies,
vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand
SPEAKERS
Timaka Wallace, Katie Clark
Katie Clark 00:03
All right, thank you so much for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University
and the Kettering foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher ed. My name is
Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the health commons.
Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Timaka Wallace 00:22
Um, to Timaka Wallace. I'm a registered nurse and also doctoral nursing practice student in the
transcultural leadership track at Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 00:34
Great. And then before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to be interviewing
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University which will be made available to the
public?
Timaka Wallace 00:46
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:47
Great. So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background, and how you ended up
choosing to study at Augsburg?
Timaka Wallace 00:56
So my educational background, I am a native-born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. All my education from
the undergrads like starting it in the nursing, where I started as a CNA (certified nursing assistant), LPN
(licensed practical nurse), RN (registered nurse), and I went up to nurse practitioner, when I enrolled in
a nurse practitioner program that took me out of my traditional comfort zone of Chicago, and I was
accepted here in Boston, Massachusetts as MGH. It was called the MGH School of Nursing, which is
now as MGH Institute, and I was accepted in a psychiatric nurse practitioner program, which I was
-1-
going to do my DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice), and engage the double masters because that's how
the program was set up. However, I didn't flourish there a lot because I felt so I want to say like in
prison, that was the first time I ever felt so in prison, in education, where I felt like my opinion didn't
matter there. It was a it was more like a system I was in there. And I was so frustrated with the system
and how I feel like I was being treated, that I started reaching out to looking up other schools via the
Internet to try to figure out who would be who would take my credit. So, you know, I got online, I found
Augsburg and I found it to be a little bit freeing when I looked at the doctoral program there, and you
know, they had a master's so I flew to Minnesota, I set up an interview with the not an interview, we did
have a phone interview me and Dr. Joyce Miller, and I was making her aware of my frustrations and I
flew to Minnesota. I was there for about three days I met the staff went around the campus, because
what I knew at that point, I wanted to drop out, because I wanted to just do my doctoral project on like,
my master's is, I'm sorry, I went to Governors State University in Chicago. So I have a bachelor's in
health, and then a master's in I majored in addiction studies. So then, the psychiatric part came in,
because usually mental health and addiction studies disorders, they overlap with one another. So I felt
that that was great. But then when I got there, nobody was in really interested in addiction studies, or
you know, but they but these are the patients that we're going to see pysch. So I, it was a big
disconnect of having a psychiatric nurse practitioner program with no curriculum on addiction. It was
like really crazy. So but being born in Chicago, I was aware of addictions. Because I grew up in
Chicago, Ida B. Wells project. So Chicago Housing Authority, so all you saw was addictions, a lot of my
friends, my neighbors, and then I can't even go father, my father was a heroin, addicted to heroin. So I
just felt like that was normal to have them overlap with one another. But this program didn't feel the
need to deal with it. So I wanted to write on like addictions and stuff. Nobody wanted to be my reader.
Nobody wanted you to do research, I found one person, Dr. Mahoney, she was more the only person
like, open to see these type of things, and culturally open to them. But in the middle of my writing back
and forth and emailing and sending her my papers over the summer, her grading, she left abruptly from
the university. So now I'm back to where I started, like trying to find somebody to want to deal with me.
And it was just a mess. It was more like people were like the other professors like, well, you could just
get on this research. I'm doing this, or you could just get on that research, and I just didn't want to do
that. So it's frustrating. It's frustrating me just terribly and being African American. I know what it feels
like to be marginalized. I know what it feels like to be oppressed. And that's what I was feeling to the
point I was expressing to one of my chairs, she was very, you know, she was white, of course, but she
was very nice. She was one of my, she did the community part for us nurse practitioners; she wanted to
make sure that nurse practitioners know everything in the community here in Boston. And I was just
telling her my frustrations and she just was like Timaka, I know what you're talking about. Exactly. She
said, but you've come so far, just cooperate and graduate. But I just could not find, you know, in my
spirit wouldn't allow. So at the time, I just was trying to find a way out of that school. And I knew I was
close, but it was just too hard for me to like, you know, I think it didn't resonate with who I was to just do
that. Ended up I met Joyce, I call we set up some I flew to Minnesota once I landed there and met
Joyce. I just meshed like my, I don't know how to explain it. It's just when I got there, it felt like home
like it felt like I was accepted even before I even got there. So I did get myself together. I came back to
Chicago. I talked to some of my old nursing professors. And of course, they're like, they're older women
now that like 70-80 years old and eight, one push me to go back because I was like a semester away
they like to market you go back, you do this. And then you do what you want to do. So I dropped the I
dropped the doctoral program, I finished with a master's I finished a nurse practitioner program, and I
-2-
am a board certified candidate to take my board certification for psychiatric nurse practitioner. But I
always knew I was going to go back to Augsburg to get my doctorate degree. I just knew it. Because I
had committed to myself that I'll never go to another institution based upon aesthetics. Because MGH is
very aesthetic they into everything. Everybody's into this, that and people want to be affiliated. And I
didn't know that because I just came from Chicago and not had never experienced that. So I didn't want
to go anywhere else while I had to compromise who I was as a person, as a nurse, as an advocate for
the vulnerable populations of addiction studies as well as mental health. So when I did decide to go
back to school, I knew I was going to be it. And I when I met Joyce it was in 2014 and 15. Yeah,
because my mom just died. And it just took me this long to get here. But I think this is exactly where I
should be. Things that happened to me and MGH was great. All the oppression, all the ratio, the
structural racism they had was great, because right now that gave me a lot of power to know what I will
won't compromise at this point moving forward in my career and my life in general. So I think it was all
worth the journey as hard as it was as disappointed as I was. I just now standing, you know, you know
my truth, and I'm okay with that. So, Augsburg that's how I ended up at Augsburg, because the bad, I
had a bad experience in education. I don't think any students should have be in prison because we all
learn differently. And nobody, I'm not worried about aesthetics. I've never been that I come from
nothing. So for me, it's like, I'm a genuine person. Because when you grew up in the projects, and you
grow up poor, everybody's there because they need to be it's not I'm here because oh, my mom can
afford some random No, everybody's there because you're there because you can't afford to be
anywhere else. And we have always made the best of that. My childhood experience - so I'm very
authentic in who I am. Because when you grew up poor, you don't have any money to be anybody but
you. And to me, I didn't even know I was poor. So I had to grow up and read about it. Like oh, shoot, we
were poor. Oh, wow. But the blessing in it is I'm so genially who I am and I'm so genuinely of what I
represented stand for. And I liked that. And if that what poor equates to, um, I'm okay with that. So,
that's how I did end up there. I had to learn I'm not into all the aesthetics. I'm not that girl. Not her. I
want to be in the trenches. I want to be with the population the marginalized population like addictions
or mental health that people don't want to deal with because I am them in such a way in so many ways.
So I just more I'm more, you know, I just mesh better with the vulnerable populations. It's this mold that
I, it takes nothing for me to be understanding and know and understanding that it's just just just a part of
like who I am even though I have all this education, and you know, I have seen the world is a blessing I
have been blessed to see the world in two different perspectives, but I do know what it is to be
marginalized and oppressed and poor. So I don't get it twisted. I just don't. And I just always stand in
the gap for them, and I always will. So where people want to work at MGH I don't I never have I did a
clinical there on Blake-11 psych, I almost jumped out the window myself. All the people were there on
the unit were rich, they were lawyers, you know, children of lawyers, children of judges, children of this
doctor, that doctor this rich person, and then it's like, you go in to help to do the psychotherapy,
everybody on the unit like the nurse, you get reported. And it's like, whoa, don't go in there with them.
That's "such and such" that donates millions. So I was on a unit of a psych unit to help people and they
were running the show - the psych patients was really running the show - because of the donors and
the prestige they come from. So I'm like, so why am I here today? If I can't go into this patient's room?
To do this? It was just crazy. But this is MGH culture. This is how they do it. This is the Harvard
professor's son. This is the MIT such as such, it was just it's everything he is is like aesthetic. So I just
didn't find myself being effective. And that's just not who I am. I'm not interested in, I guess what the
-3-
people with the money? I don't know. I guess I'm so used to not having any I don't know, but I don't do
well with that population.
Katie Clark 11:49
Well, we're glad that you chose to come to Augsburg.
Timaka Wallace 11:52
I did, Augsburg. I just feel like when I came there, it was home. I don't know the feeling. Like I said, it's
somewhere like you get off the plane. Every time I come home to Chicago. It's like I text everybody
home sweet home. And I mean, that is like I'm home. Even as bad as they say, Chicago is still home.
But when I showed up at Augsburg, it was something about my spirit rested the same way, is like,
yeah, this is where you supposed to be. And I don't know any other way to explain it. But that's it. So I
always knew whenever I went back to get my doctor degree, I'll go there. I'll never forget how Joyce
treated me. She was always open to my truth. Because I just said, you know, I just feel like the people
over there, their white, their privilege they don't understand and all that and, and me and Joyce. I mean,
she understood this was way before George Floyd, you know, and it was so crazy. One of my original
cohorts that I started with at MGH texted me when all this stuff started happening about, you know,
having real conversations. His name was Jude Atom, and he was with me and he was from I think he's
Cameroon. So he did the Family Nurse Practitioner track, and I did Psych. So you all start together,
then you branch out to your specialty. So he texted me one day, he said, I'm looking at the news with
all this talk about having a real conversation. He said to mark that he was before your time when I was
in that program, because that's the stuff I say we need to have a conversation because you guys don't
understand how you making me feel. So that was, that was a confirmation that I wasn't really being
belligerent or tripping at the school, it was just more or less, I felt the systemic racism and oppression
and marginalization every day, when I showed up for school. So that's how I end up at Augsburg.
Katie Clark 13:56
Wonderful. Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relation to being
engaged in the community or in regards to being able to create change in your institution?
Timaka Wallace 14:11
Before I came to Augsburg, again, I went to Governor State University. And my bachelor's and my
undergrad and my graduate degree was in addiction I minored in major in addiction studies. So when I
got there, addiction studies it was like something new that everybody was trying to get into. And a lot of
our counselors, a lot of our professors at Governors State are addiction studies, substance abuse
counselors and licensed in that. So I just felt like that was what we were supposed to do. So what I
ended up becoming I was nominated to be the Governor State University. I was the first president of
the addiction studies club at Governors State University. Yes, I was nominated by the school and the
department because I was very active, I'm very vocal. So we used to gather up, I get money from the
school, we used to go to the state, and disrupt the meetings when he's making laws about the law. You
know, I guess I'm a little trouble, we'll make it but it's okay. But it's good trouble. I'm a fan of John Lewis,
I always get in good trouble. So we will take a bus ride to the state capitol. And we will go in there and
we would pull out the senators of Illinois at the time, I need you to talk to you I need this law to be
changed on the the premise of addictions because the patients are not being seen or the you know, the
-4-
population, they don't get a really a second chance with this law being in place that law, and that was
under Professor Jim Golding. He was the professor but then he pulled me, because that's how I got
nominated. Jane was like, we need Timaka, because she's really good. So I was the president, for
maybe even after I graduated, I was the president and I had to move to Boston, of course, they had to
pick someone else. But I did. I did become the first president of the social studies club. And we did stuff
like that. We also started the recovery walk, as well. Before for people with recovery, because we have
all these galas about and all these months for cancer, HIV, we'd have nurses week, this week, you
know, we have mental health Mondays this month in May we have all that. But you very seldom hear
anybody applaud or reward anyone in recovery. And I think that's a prop. I don't care if you two days,
and you didn't use that's the day to celebrate. And I think oftentimes people can't stay off because we're
looking for this long journey, when it was what additional study, we have to meet them where they are.
And if it's two days, three days, we need to have a day a month that we celebrate. So Governor says
we created the recovery wall, where you could come and walk. And it's not about if you get six years or
six, you know, six minutes, just come that day. So we started the recovery, I helped Jim Voting start the
recovery wall. And I was always on the Board of Governors, stay tuned for addiction studies, I was on
the board. So I did a lot of very active there until I had to move here. And of course, that change, but
even when I'm going back and I I'm back and I'm getting a little stable, I'll sign up again, but I'm just not
the type of person that likes to have my foot halfway in. I'm all the way in with something is no, there's
no gray with me. I'm sorry, it's either black or white. So it's like I'm not ready to go because I'm I got
some other things I'm trying to do right now we're here in Boston wrap up this. So I've always stood in
the gap for addiction studies and the mental health population and I guess, any vulnerable population
because you're my patient, he (Carlos) was a quadriplegic, and I still stand in the gap for Carlos so
much while he was alive, that, you know, they just know like, you better call Timaka before you do
anything. So I'm just gonna like really be an advocate for someone if I'm dealing with the situation. So
that's how I started my advocacy at Governors in addictions thing, and then they also end up inducting
me into the national something Governors State, I was inducted the first course of allied healthcare
professional, I was inducted to a governor State University. You can Google it like if you Google it, it'll
come up with my picture and stuff. So yeah, I love Governor State Governor State was more freeing too
and I like working with the addiction in any vulnerable, mostly vulnerable population with mental health
and addictions. I just really thrive there. Because I think so many so many of those people from my
history from my past are suffering with that mental health, some kind of addiction. And it speaks to me
because I have a lot of friends even though I'm here. All my friends and turn out like me somebody
else, but that's okay. They're still my friends. And I'm not gonna let you mistreat them. Because, you
know, you some people look at me and say, Well, you made it and why she didn't do what you did. And
I just I don't like that, because we grew up in the same building. But every door when you close the
door is a different story behind every door. So you can't say, make me the Ida B. Wells girl, when you
don't understand that it's a story behind every door that closes in those project builds. So I don't, I don't
like to be, you know, listed like, Well, why can they do what you did? We still had different
circumstances when the doors closed at our apartments. So that needs to be taken in consideration.
Katie Clark 19:45
So I'm wondering, has your view as a nurse changed at all since you've been at Augsburg or is it kind
of always been the same?
-5-
Timaka Wallace 19:57
I first of all, I didn't even know I was citizen nurse. I figured that out since I been at Augsburg. And I also
figured out, that's with you Katie, I'm citizen nurse, and I also figured out I'm just a transcultural nurse
as well, you know, I don't have any problem advocating for anybody in the BIPOC community. I'm just
so much that. And yeah, I didn't know anything about citizen nursing to you told me and I was like, well,
damn, I think I'm a citizen nurse too, you know, and I didn't, I don't think we have enough information
about that. I don't even think people know, I never heard of that until I got to Augsburg. So I do know
that I am a citizen nurse. When I took your course Making Room at the Table, that is one of my favorite
courses I have taken. I just told Deb, she just came in at number two with this epidemiology this
semester in biocultural epidemiology, that's number two, I had to be honest, I said Deb this is number
two, you still hold number one. I think that changed me I think we are. You know, one thing about this
program, I really, really appreciate is about taking the person out of the expert role. And I think for me,
you know, all the professional training you got, it's almost like the nurse and the doctor, the nurses, the
angel and the doctors to god, we're like, do what we say do and this and that. And what we're learning
what I know for sure now is we're not the expert for someone else's care. And we're not the expert for
someone else's culture. I think it's so important to learn, like how people heal in their culture to really
get them well. In my opinion, on the spirit, on a holistic level, like spiritually, mentally and physically, you
have to take those things into consideration. So Augsburg really has validated, you know, a lot of things
about how I feel, but also, it also has informed me and made me more knowledgeable, to be able to
have extra tools now, to fight for the vulnerable populations as being a citizen, as being a transcultural
nurse or as or leader or just a follower. I'm okay with all those roles. You know, I'm good at what I'm
good at. But like, I don't have a problem saying that today. I'm a student here. Even after I get my
doctorate degree, I'm still okay with showing up. And knowing that I should play the role that's
requested of me, you know, even as Dr. Timaka S. Wallace. I just believe that. And Augsburg really
those courses, citizen nurse, and Making Room at the Table and biocultural epidemiology. Those
speak so much to that. And I think it's relevant to be a great, you know, nurse, to help someone heal.
Katie Clark 22:52
You've answered a couple of the questions that were coming here. But I'm wondering, one of the goals
of this project is to help people who don't teach about citizen professionalism, or the citizen nurse or
civic engagement in their institutions, about what is the best pedagogical way or method? So how do
we best teach these things? So was there an experience that you had in class that really helped you
gain understanding into what the role of the citizen nurse was? Or was it more reading about it? Like
what spoke to you most as far as being able to learn about some of these concepts which basically are
already instilled in the discipline, but we're not naming them right.
Timaka Wallace 23:42
I think when you had your class and you showed us the videos of things like the little girl, Rosa, I'll
never forget Rosa. Rosa reminds me and me, but she was in the video and like, again, they lived in a
project, anything that lives in the projects, Katie, I'm telling you, it resonates with me, because, you
know that, you know, I tell people all the time, they make me mad, like, everybody loves to come
research kids in the project, no matter what city, state, they love it. It's always like we went to the kids
and you know, that's fine, but nobody ever comes back and figure out what's what you narrated it was
our truth. Because after the time, it's not the truth, because nobody comes back to see whatever
-6-
happened to those children. You know, from that project, everybody doesn't turn out to be even if we
start back. So say for me, I was a teen mom, I started off bad, that would be a type feeling. You know,
like she started out as a teen mom. Okay. That was one obstacle that I beat. I never was into drugs,
was in jail. So it's like, do you come back and check on people and the narratives that you create, I
think is important about that. I think when you show me Rosa, and how she was just this little girl that
thrived and how that school was right across the street, but didn't accept any people, then how you also
show me, the boy that lived he was rich that lived in the building. And the poor people live beneath him
and he killed himself. Because again, I think it's something about community in those buildings that
everybody sticks together that everybody are, knows who they are, because it's based on having
nothing. So you, you know, you can dress up all you want, but you are who you are, and you know who
you are, versus someone being rich. Sometimes you never get to figure out who you are, because you
was born into this, this life, that you have all these things. So sometimes it can get twisted. And he
committed suicide because it was still like a hole in his soul somewhere that he couldn't figure out him
without the money, like who will I really be without this money if I'm born in incident. So I think it's when
I seen all those videos, and those things resonated with me, I think that's how we need to start teaching
things like given visuals and stuff, giving people things to look at and compare and understand that like
those little documentary projects that the girl did with the kids across the 35 feet, I thought that was
phenomenal. But that happens all the time. And we're not aware of the disconnect. So close, but so far.
So I think that's how institutions we need to get out of this formal way - of this is the syllabus, this is the
rulebook. And this is a I don't think that works very well, because nothing is really changing. But if you
give someone something to look at some real concrete stories, like the girl that made the documentary,
35 feet or six feet away, I forget the name of it, but I thought that was so real. And so and it changed a
lot of kids' perspective in the that was rich that was getting dropped off. So it might didn't change the
system, because again, they still been letting kids really in the school because the leadership is very
much so still systemic, you know, it still has its racial systemics, I don't care what you say that's I can't
call it for what it is, is systemic racism was still at the head. So even though they made the videos, the
whoever, all the chair, all the board members to me still wasn't ready for change. A might have they
saw it. But again, it's hard for people to be honest about what's really going on, especially if you have
no idea of changing it or even thought about that you were doing something that that that's what I think
how we should do things like you did, you showed us the stuff. I'll never forget some of those stories.
And that's just what it is.
Katie Clark 27:52
We're talking about civic skills and different concepts. What could have helped you better understand
them more, or what might have been the most challenging thing to understand where we could have
done better and helping give voice to what the skill or the concept was, if any?
Timaka Wallace 28:17
I think for me, you did a great job. For me, personally, for me, you did a great job. Um, what we could
do, is I wish that that course Making Room Seat at the Table can be something that other institutions
could have. Again, instead of, I know we did have a rubric. And I know we did have a course syllabus
and our objectives. I know that but it was something fluid about learning something in real-time in real
contexts that, to me has so much more validity and how I can change as a human being and see things
versus, you know, this is semester, this is how we're going to do things I think for me, Augsburg is
-7-
ahead of its game one day you will be recognized after so long how guys are doing this doctoral
program, that how things are done here. To meet, think, to me is the way institutions should be doing
things at this point, we need to get away from this model of, you know, this is how it goes. And this is
you know, and all the rigor out of the writing, all that stuff. I mean, because you can get a degree if you
follow all those things, but I think graduating of people that are effective and innovative and change and
real people instead of worring about the you know, graduating from the institution, per se with the name
with the GPA and the publishing and all that. I think that's so it's a thing of the past for me because we
have so many things happening where I kind of it like going to the addiction house and you know, the
jails and all those places, I call those the gray areas of life. But those are the real-life stories and places
of our patients, in my opinion, you know? So if I published a book, or did some levels of graduate you
graduate from Harvard versus graduated from Ausburg, I mean, am I really a change agent? Because
of just those things, the GPA, the cum laude, and all that? Or do I meet people where they are, be more
understanding, learn how to take care of them from their perspective, their culture, their way of life,
whether it be substance use disorder, whether it be incarceration, stuff like that, I think we need more of
those types of courses. Katie, to really make people well, that's just my opinion, because wellness is
bigger than you have the degree and I'm the professor, it's more or less, can you understand the
patient? Can you really understand the patient? So I think more courses should be built in a way in
which we are really being able to deal with people that we usually don't do. And learn their lifestyle,
learn their culture, learn how to meet them, learn how to build a rapport with them, learn how to heal
them, in a holistic way. That's what I think.
Katie Clark 31:30
So you talked a lot about how you already were working to change systems before you came to
Augsburg. Do you feel since your time at Augsburg you feel better equipped, or do you feel about the
same?
Timaka Wallace 31:46
No, I feel better equipped, I'm gonna give you guys a lot of like homage I was already I'm gonna tell
you. Like I had Carlos and my patients, like his friend or I said, he made me a kick ass nurse, he did
because of his complicated medical history. And I had to become more diligent about learning this stuff.
And I did and I became great at it because I did it for nine years. So I'm going to add on Augsburg I'm
gonna give you guys to create a you make me kick ass kick ass times to with educational piece, that,
you know, I can be just, I can learn a lot of stuff. And I can translate it to and teach it to a lot of people
just by talking to it, not I don't need to I don't need a syllabus. I don't need a objective list. I don't need
the rubric. I just think sometimes I show up. I'm talking to people. And if you don't we just be very
interested like I work here nights in Boston at this place. And I look up at night, I'm having this
discussion with these nurses or CNAs all the time. They're like, Oh, my God, you know, you can't do
and I'm like, that's not, how am I beat? We're just talking, you know, but I guess what I try to give away
and stuff becomes off deep to some people when this just to me, I'm just doing the right thing. Like, this
is what I had to google CNAs trying to go to nursing school. Everybody's like, we're gonna go here
because this fast and you don't have to do this. And I was giving them a lecture like nothing's fast. Let's
be clear here. Let's let's not do the fast thing. It's nothing fast. And you know, so stuff like that is just like
me being who I am. And taking things that I've learned from Augsburg, from my patient, Carlos, I think I
just share it with the world and it comes easy for me. So I think psych, that was like another place when
-8-
I got there. I was like, okay, this is where I'm supposed to be in the psychiatric field. So I just think I'm
just I just think, yeah, Augsburg definitely I'm gonna give you kudos for making me better at what I do
with more tools. And I think I'll be I think I've been garnered the doctor. Finally, I ended up getting it
somehow. But I think after I get it, I mean, it'll change my name far as like, I have to doctorate, but they
won't change me. It'll just make me better. Better, I guess, in such a way it makes you the expert on
them, but I'm not. It just makes me better at doing what I do. Let's all which is meeting people where
they are.
Katie Clark 34:20
That's wonderful. You think that there's a better way we could integrate the concept of the citizen nurse
into assignments that would better help you engage in that work, then how we have it set up now?
Timaka Wallace 34:37
Hmm, I think, you can kind of thread that in every little course. I think you could do that. I definitely think
you can do every little course should have a little bit of citizenship nursing in it. Because I think Katie,
nobody knows about that. Because I did like I'm very - I like to read a lot of stuff and I stayed grounded
with all the news. Since stuff as much as possible, I had never heard of that. So I think with every little
course, maybe it's okay to just put a little bit of that in there. And then I mean, you still do your course
but all while their at Augsburg? I think citizenship nursing citizen nurse should come up some type of
way, every time. So it can be it can it can it can galvanize its way and you know, start to be more
recognize, instead of waiting, just a little bit here a little bit sprinkle and then you give the course and
then after do a big course just every little, you know, course have a little bit of that. I think that'd be
great. That'd be like a reinforcement of it every time that you leave this place to leave Augsburg.
Katie Clark 35:46
Is there anything that you wish you had learned at Augsburg that you haven't yet?
Timaka Wallace 35:53
No, I'm still learning, I just, you know, I still have a couple of great courses to, to finish. But every
semester I'm excited even though I'm worn down. I'm always excited to know what's next here. Like I, I
can truly say, I've been happy since I started. I really been happy here since I started. So I've never
missed a class or nothing. Like even if I'm sick, I'll be like, I'm logging on, I feel better after it's over. You
know. So that's, that's the good thing about being here at this program. I am just always eager to be
here no matter what. I try to be here. And I'm always learning something. So I think it's more to come.
You know, I think it's more to come. So I don't, I don't have any regrets or anything or thinking that you
guys haven't been the best that you have been; you have been phenomenally great. Great. You know,
this has been a great program for me, but couldn't have picked a better program.Thank you. Okay, so
two more questions. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Do you
feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constant changing landscape of
healthcare. It definitely has changed. Because it has changed nursing totally, you know, all within itself,
the constant change of it every day, as it still was two or three years out and still continue to change
me. I don't know if I'm on I don't first be in and make decisions. I'm not on that kind of platform. Like I
haven't gained my seat at the table yet, Katie to be able to, to say how I feel, I mean, this interview,
maybe it's helping me say how I feel. But I haven't been able to get that opportunity outside of class,
-9-
you know, all our classes with the cohort I'm in, I'm in the best cohort in the world. We are so different.
But we're so alike for us on purpose together, that this couldn't it's like I don't even know how this
happened. But I did. So I think we talk about a lot of things amongst each other. But I don't think I have
the platform, if it's outside of Augsburg to really, you know, have a lot to say, I don't know if that
happened in the future. But I just know nursing in general has changed just in so many ways, just so
just like for me, I was a psych NP candidate, and usually, we cannot do telehealth unless you had to
come to the school or to the hospital. And it has to be on an encrypted, you know, thing get in and out.
But of course, that changed with pandemic. I can tell I have now off my computer right here right now. It
doesn't have to be all the stipulations, and all is that the third, even with the license thing, you can do a
lot of stuff. They doing a lot of compact licenses now that you couldn't do it was hard to get. It's not like
that anymore. So I think it changed because how are they going to see the people because now we
can't go into hospitals. We can't go outside. So I think it did change. Even at the end I was still in
school. I graduated in May 2020 so it hit right when the semesters we are all about to graduate. So it
we saw the change, like because I was in it. And at that point, I did again the gray areas of life, at the at
the end of my journey. I did my psychotherapy at the hospice house. Nobody wanted to go, so I got
everything nobody wanted to do. I did like the hospitals the homeless shelter the jail, I did all those
places. Because I when I thought about it, like I felt like why wouldn't anybody needs some
psychotherapy on death and dying? And I went and it was a phenomenal experience just to meet
somebody that, you know, they say they have less than six months to live and you know, and then you
know, I get to be with them a couple of weeks. Sometimes they stay still live longer and stuff like that
they stay there, some people will stand there, some people went home and just made a pit stop there.
So I just think with that alone, they said they had never had any psych np come to a hospice house.
And I just thought how crazy that is to get the news. And even with that Katie, we were given news over
a computer where we would give the news about death and dying and person. COVID hit and we had
nothing else to go by. So it started to wear on me and the staff, because it was like, I tell you, all the
results came back, everything metastasized with this prognosis, you got two months to live, I'm on a
computer, you're crying, I'm crying we all because that's something we do in person. And, you know,
make hugs. And you know, so it changed me, you know, and then I got cold one day not call us and the
body getting cold. But I looked up I was at the hospitals house COVID, hit everything shut down. We
have people in here dying. We have people now scared to come. And then we have all these protocols
lined up because of the COVID. I looked up I was I started like having a mental thing happened to me
because I was started being there were people dying on with me that I didn't even know. So that was
just like, wow, you know, how does this happen? So it did, it changed a lot. And at the point like that I
was at the hospice house. And it was all my colleagues, one of them had to really take off because she
just said it's just not right for us to deliver this kind of news to people. But we had no other choice and
had nothing else to do. So we had the people in there dying then now we have people scared to come
see them because they didn't want them to die faster. And then we have people dying with strangers.
So it was a very, very complex time for me. And I just started to also start it started to wear on me too,
because it was like, wow., wow, like what do we do? But our hands were tied? So yeah, I think it
changed nursing overall, and so many, so many ways. And death and dying were away. Definitely.
Definitely. Oh, that's what I experience.
Katie Clark 42:32
Thank you. And is there anything that you would like to share with us that I didn't ask? The final?
- 10 -
Timaka Wallace 42:40
Yeah, you should ask me like, no, I think like my journey, like after I get my doctorate degree, I think I'm
supposed to be a teacher or something. I do. So maybe you could ask me like, What are you gonna do
after I don't know, I got to Augsburg and I think I'm supposed to be a teacher. Like, I've never thought
about being a professor ever, ever. So it's like I got here. And it's just like, maybe when I did the I did
the dismantling white supremacy as a co-leader with Dr. Frebor, Kaija. So I was honored to do that
work and be the co-leader. But at that point, I just think I was like maybe I'm supposed to be a teacher
someday or something because that was a really, it was a great course. But it was also hard too and
that was another thing that I think, you know, we in this time, let's have a real conversation. I don't know
why people think real conversations are easy. They're never so to have that course, even though it was
so it's so necessary to have that course. I think nobody understood the the emotions that can be
brought up or who you are, what part you played in it, you know, even if it's not per se you personally
but just as a race, you know, I think that's when I felt like well, well wow. Maybe I need to be a teacher
because I was able to explain things to the class, and not even knocking Dr. Freborg, but it's like you i It
was hard for me to see and just being transparent a white person's teacher dismantling white
supremacy course. I think that was so like, I thought that was a good idea. But when we got into it, I just
was like, I don't think this is going to work. I didn't not say it's gonna work. But I don't think that was the
best because a white person to me can't teach dismantling white supremacy, because you don't even
know what it's like to be oppressed in the way I do. So it's like when we had the course. She was the
leader and I was co-leader but he kind of change on his own because she couldn't teach you anything
about being black because she wasn't. So at that point, I figured out that maybe I was going to be a
teacher, even if it's just what a course is something about like I had just seen Miss Diane graduate,
Davis, and she was on one of my students in the course and she had no idea like she had just found
out she's racist that one day, you know, everybody wants to be, it was so much trauma, but I didn't feel
I didn't feel the way that Dr. Freborg felt because it's like, this is a normal reaction. You know, I didn't
need to have her in the zoom by herself. I was like, I'm not doing like so I just think when I did that, and
I met Diane and I met so many other great students but I remember Diane particularly because you
know, Diane even thank you, she's Timaka if ever teach any classes anywhere, I'm gonna find you and
take them because it was some way of me delivering the information did make you feel hostile, even
though I was hurt. I still know how to deal with it and not make you feel hostile about it or not make you
feel bad. So something about a gift from me being poor that I have had to do this all my life that it likes
comes naturally. So I think something like a course like that, or something I'm good at. I'm good at that.
So that's something I didn't know that I probably was interested in until you guys allowed me to be on
that course. So that's one thing I'm gonna say. I will. Thank you guys wherever I end up being, maybe
at Augsburg, because I think since I was birth here, you guys need to use me to your best advantage.
Yeah, so, and that definitely questions nothing. I think I probably would like you to ask me that. I didn't
know that I found out while I was here.
Katie Clark 46:55
Well, I'm glad I asked that question.
Timaka Wallace 46:59
Right. Yeah, well, so. That's it.
- 11 -
Katie Clark 47:03
That concludes our interview. So thank you for your time.
Timaka Wallace 47:08
Thank you for having me. And I appreciate being a candidate for this. And I hope that I could be some
type of help to someone in a minute way or even in a big way, but even if it's in a small way, I'm cool
with that, you know, so thank you so much, Katie. Thank you.
- 12 -
Show less
Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022)
4/8/2022 • 46:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people,
role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, T... Show more
Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022)
4/8/2022 • 46:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people,
role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Theresa Reichert
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering
Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is
Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the Assistant Provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could
you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Theresa Reichert 00:00
Yeah, my name is Teresa Reichert and I am a nurse at the center of care health system here in the
rural Minnesota.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Great. And are you currently a student at Augsburg or graduate?
Theresa Reichert 00:00
I am currently a student in the transcultural nursing program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Excellent. Before we continue, I would just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed
and having that interview stored at Augsburg University where it will be made available to the public?
Theresa Reichert 01:04
Yes, I give my consent.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:05
Great. Thank you. All right. To start out, can you tell me a little bit about your education background and
what you're currently studying at Augsburg?
Theresa Reichert 01:15
-1-
All right. Um, so I went to a public school for my elementary, high school, middle school and high
school. And then after graduating from high school, I attended a private Catholic College. Would you
like the name of the college?
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:32
I'm curious. Yeah.
Theresa Reichert 01:34
All right. So after I attended high school, I went to the private Catholic College, small rural Catholic
college, the College of St. Benedict, in St. Cloud, or near St. Cloud, Minnesota, but it's actually in St.
Joe. And I studied nursing there. And after studying nursing, I worked in the field for a while and then
did some, I call it field learning, on the ground learning, experiential learning, abroad for some time in
India. So I learned through working there, and then after spending months in India, I eventually ended
up getting a master's degree from the College of St. Catherine, although it's St. Catherine's University
now. And that was in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And then now I'm currently studying my transcultural
nurse leadership degree at Augsburg University.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:14
Great, thank you. Your time in India. Was that through a formal program? Or did you create that on
your own?
Theresa Reichert 02:19
No, it ended up being through connections and networking with a nun that had come to the school and
given a presentation. So she had come to the College of St. Benedict to give a presentation, I network
with her and ended up working with her and then nurse from Australia, and did some learning. We were
in Calcutta, India, and I was there from August through December.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:35
So you have a number of years of experience as a nurse and in different education settings before
coming to Augsburg. So before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in
relationship to being engaged in community or being able to make change in institutions?
Theresa Reichert 03:50
I didn't know my role. And if I were to back up even further from your question, I would say that before
coming to Augsburg, I was still trying to discern my passion as a nurse, which was already there, but I
couldn't see it. I didn't quite recognize it. It was there was a through line through my experiences. But I
think coming to Augsburg in the transcultural nursing leadership program actually helped me clarify how
I fit into nursing because I never did feel like I fit in. And it gave me a place where some of the things
that I was interested in had footing, could take root. And there's a new trajectory that made sense to me
in emancipatory nursing basically. So with that, I was able to discover that that my passion of really
learning deeply, thinking deeply and maybe challenging what I always thought or what others always
thought to be true, especially in nursing, was something that I was more passionate about. So with the
relationship with being engaged with the community, and changing institutions, I now can see which I
didn't before, the ways in which these experiences and interactions, especially long term with the
-2-
community can really shape and influence how institutions are changed, created, transformed by these
relationships with one another. And that I can see that my role as a nurse is so pivotal to being that
bridge.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:30
Awesome. I want to go back a little bit to how you viewed nursing before you came to Augsburg, you
said that you didn't feel like you fit into the profession. Could you describe that a little bit more?
Theresa Reichert 05:42
Yeah, I talk about this sometimes with my co workers and colleagues, but they always say they
meaning I hear it all the time with nursing professors and nursing co workers, colleagues, nurses are
type A, we're task oriented, we're not creative. We're the logical type. You know, we don't we don't have
time for creativity, we have lives to save. Whereas I've always been someone who loves the creative
side of things. I love art, I love painting, I love drawing and thinking creatively, thinking about things
differently. And I also don't see myself as type A, I don't see myself as competitive, I don't see myself
as needing to be the best, get the A have all the details in a row to have that control, I don't need that
control. That sometimes is perceived as Type A. And so these messages that I kind of kept receiving
throughout nursing education and in my colleagues throughout many different departments, was a
message that my creative thinking wasn't something that was really a part of nursing unless it was
critical thinking and backed by evidence. And the side of me that was maybe analytical and thoughtful
and deep thinking in a creative way wasn't as well received. As much as the side of me that would have
been logical and using data as the only way to move things forward. If that makes sense.
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:25
Yeah, it does. Thank you. So you touched on this a little bit with your previous answer. But has your
view of the role of a nurse changed since coming to Augsburg and if so how?
Theresa Reichert 07:41
Well, at this time I came. So prior to coming to Augsburg, I think it something that was important was I
had been teaching in a higher ed program in nursing, and had felt so constrained. Whenever I tried to
do things that were maybe more creative or different, I was told you don't understand. That's not how
it's done. I don't even remember all the messages. But I remember feeling very stifled and frustrated.
There's things I did understand but couldn't communicate and didn't have the hierarchy to have any
power or influence behind it. And interestingly, right as the pandemic hit in 2020, I ended up switching
positions to a nurse leadership position with Centracare, where I work now. And as a part of that
transition, I was just thrust in a very complicated department with a complicated history. And just like
the wheels of change, just cycling in motion before I even got there. And I was leading this team that I
didn't know without a lot of leadership experience, but I had a very solid leadership team. And what I
learned from that, and it occurred simultaneously with Augsburg, so I could put what Augsburg was
teaching me into practice, almost immediately and see the intricate relationships between everything I
was learning. So with both of those in combination, I was able to see the type of influence creativity and
personal knowledge had in reshaping the department and totally transforming the culture of a place into
something new. And I'm really interested in cultural transformation. And being able to put those things
into practice right away, what are those things meaning the things I was learning into practice was
-3-
transformational for me internally as well as the department. So I was able to shift the institution both in
my department, in the way we think, and shift that also kind of up the higher hierarchy of healthcare
systems, I guess, and just start leveraging different people, different thinking, different relationships, to
start shifting change in the institution too. So it was really exciting. And it was a draining year, too.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:35
This next question flows really nicely out of what you just said. So were the concepts of the citizen
professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in classes that you've taken at
Augsburg? And if so which ones stand out?
Theresa Reichert 10:51
Yeah, the citizen nurse concepts were really talked about frequently, particularly in the Room at the
Table class. And the ones that I've really been thinking about in particular, was systems mapping,
looking at kind of human centered mapping. So looking out at who has influence in either an
organization or community, and how do you use that to advance different initiatives. But actually, the
concept of the narrative has transformed my project for my DNP project, into a narrative project,
because of what I had learned in the Making Room at the Table class with Katie.
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:39
Can you describe your project and how you're gonna go about it?
Theresa Reichert 11:45
I'll start kind of at the beginning, but when I was in nursing education, I saw so many different biases
that occurred. So like, people coming back from spring break, and the faculty would say, where did you
go on vacation in spring break, assuming that everyone went to vacation. Or I'd hear them say, to the
men in the class, Oh, you guys stop talking about all your girlfriends and pay attention in class, or just
different little things like that I would hear all the time and see all the time, or when students would
advocate for their needs. I would hear terms used such as complaining, trying to manipulate
professors? Things like that. And I started to see some patterns. And I wondered, how would some of
these things were really influencing the students chances for success. So for example, some students
being invited into or encouraged into the teacher's assistant role, which was a prestigious role in the
school. Prior to me being in a role where I could hire people, there weren't many students of color that
had been invited, or seen as successful enough to become a teacher's assistant. And so I started
noticing these patterns and thought, boy, this could be this is really harmful to a lot of students in seeing
nursing as a shortage and health inequities in seeing this big connection. And I wondered what I can
do. And then I happen to go to Augsburg, and my initial project was looking at how to challenge implicit
bias that's unaddressed among nursing faculty. But there are so many barriers to that. And as I was
learning and learning about different barriers to it, I realized that nursing culture, American culture,
there's so many barriers in our thinking, that prevent us from even welcoming the idea that nurses in
particular have bias much less than nursing professors, because we're such a caring profession. And
there's the story that we tell ourselves that, well, you can't be caring and create harm or cause harm.
And so I started thinking about that more and more. And then as I was taking the Room at the Table
course, which incorporated a lot of the work from Harry Boyte, I started to realize that maybe through
narrative or through story, we can connect to people in ways and that might not be open to receiving
-4-
some of the messages we might have to share. At the same time, in my work, I was learning and
working a lot with neuroscience and implicit bias and doing some training there. As well as in my
leadership training. They worked with the scarf model with neuroscience the Neuro Leadership Institute
scarf model, which looks at how do you decrease the threat response and people? And I wondered if
using story could help decrease the threat response and if we could be really strategic about how we
did that. And I say you story and I'm really talking about using narrative. But I like the simplicity of story.
So I say story. And then I wondered if we could actually attack certain implicit biases and mitigate them
through the use of our story and the use of our narrative. And so that's kind of how it's come into play
with my project is really looking at, can you use story to change and shift people's mindsets, when they
otherwise wouldn't have been open to it? It's really interesting I'm loving it. But that really came from,
the seed was planted in a in the citizen nurse class, and looking at the use of narrative in particular.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:48
Well, I wish you good luck with it; it sounds like something that could have ripple effects in a lot of
different areas. So again, thinking about your courses at Augsburg or your learning experiences at
Augsburg, can you tell me which experiences you've had in the classroom or in coursework, what
pedagogical practices helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen
nurse?
Theresa Reichert 16:18
I saw elements embedded throughout. And one thing that I saw, even throughout the classes was that
the elements of the citizen nurse were uplifted and encouraged. So the use of narrative was
encouraged in class assignments in class communications. And so that was uplifted in a really freeing
because it, it allowed that creativity to come out in a different way and was welcomed. So just
welcoming that type of thinking. It came up significantly in the Making Room at the Table class, when it
talked about how you build community, how you look at community, who you who influences and
shapes community. And then now, even in my current epidemiology course, really looking at how are
institutions shaped. So I'm able to pull information from other classes into the new classes, based on
what the current course is. So with epidemiology it really looking at how do we shape institutions? And
what's our role? And how do our mindsets impact that?
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:30
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your
educational experiences at Augsburg?
Theresa Reichert 17:45
Absolutely. And part of it was because I was able to implement some of the things right away as I was
leading change in my own department. So thinking slow to go fast was one thing that I've been thinking
about a lot, or taking in multiple perspectives, or when we're looking at pulling in evidence for some of
our initiatives, thinking more about where does this research come from? Who's written it who's not
included in it? And how do we get that information to help inform our decision making our practice as
we're, for example, building in a new teaching or learning strategy to help teach our patients. So that's
one small example. Different elements of shifting culture have been really important as some of the
classes I've taken, talk a little bit about shifting culture, shifting mindsets. And it's not as explicit as that
-5-
maybe I'm reading into some of that a little bit. But basically taking in multiple perspectives to shift
mindsets with the citizen nurse class, the Making Room at the Table course, one that's been really
particularly one element that was particularly helpful for me in my role in leadership was really looking
at these are two concepts actually using the community to inform the practice and what we're trying to
do and partnering with an equal status. And then also, how do you organize with understanding that
mapping, the political mapping of the institution, the organization, the community, and really thinking
about that, broadly has been very helpful in as I'm trying to do certain initiatives or make change who
do I need to influence who do I need to talk to who needs by and how might I get that? Who else am I
not seeing that I maybe should be seeing to bring into that conversation? So I would say those are
some of the most pertinent to what I've done so far.
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02
You mentioned thinking slow to go fast. Can you describe what that means?
Theresa Reichert 20:07
Yeah. So my project is really based on that I'm working on is really based on cultural change, which is
in changing mindsets, which is slow, hard to do, just very complicated and not easy. And I think a good
example of this was that I was in a discussion yesterday, when we were talking about how do you help
decrease inequities, and common solutions had been? Well, if we can change structure of things, then
then the mindsets will shift to. And I was thinking well, but if, if you don't do anything to shift the culture
of thinking, in doing some of those slower processes, you're going to get stumbled up as you try to do
some of these initiatives. And it's going to take just as long anyway, even though you're trying to go
fast. And the presenter, had a different take on the situation. But then 15 minutes into the conversation
talked about the results of his structural attempt at structural change without attentiveness to cultural
shift, just as well. And it, it didn't go well. And I think, really thinking about okay, how do I take that
concept and think of how do we go slow to go fast? And so really looking at how do we do some
cultural change things that is notoriously slow and challenging, that would set us up for more rapid
success later on. And at the same time, how do I look at different things going on in life with a respect
for slowness? And taking the time, for example, with some of the citizens work to gather multiple inputs
to partner with people to build relationships, so that whatever our end product that we're trying to do, or
the end outcome is much more meaningful? Because we've spent the time at the beginning to build a
solid foundation. So I think that a lot about how do we slow down our pace? And how would that impact
what we're trying to do?
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:08
Yeah, it sounds so basic and obvious, but it's not how we operate?
Theresa Reichert 21:31
And none in healthcare either because we're so results driven.
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:00
What could have helped you better understand civic skills, or the concepts we've already highlighted in
this interview, and, and which concepts or issues were the most challenging to understand.
-6-
Theresa Reichert 22:44
I think I had the benefit of living close by, and I was able to go to the commons, Augsburg Commons,
and really talk to particularly one gentleman there and do some professional hanging out which I love
that term, too. I just love that. That's another thing I've used all the time. So I could experience it in
action a little bit. But I would have loved to have had that experience in non-pandemic times to really
understand what that was like. So I do think that type of experiential learning would have been
beneficial. It was limited by COVID and understandably so. That would be the first thing I would think of
thankfully, I mean, that one experience with the Commons was so meaningful, I feel sad that my other
classmates didn't get that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:52
Were there any concepts or issues that were particularly challenging to grasp?
Theresa Reichert 24:00
I wasn't the mapping was tricky at first. And it still is, but I see it coming up in different ways, in my
work, and I just different ways of understanding that. And partly, I think it was difficult, because in some
ways, I think about some of those things intuitively. So putting them on paper, is something that's really
challenging for me. So I liked that challenge. But so that one was challenging the concept of - one other
thing that I loved was just suspending the role and looking at some of the, the rituals and the symbols
that we use in nursing that almost act as walls to providing care was something we talked about in that
class. And at that same time, as we had talked about roles, rituals and symbols. I had heard a podcast
by Resma Menakem and Krista Tippett where he talked about culture change, and how meaningful it
was for people looking to make change to focus on culture instead of cognitive strategies. And he
talked a lot about the symbols of belonging. And so I think about those a lot, too. And I know that's kind
of a side tangent, but both of those things occurred at the same time, that class and that conversation,
and it really rooted in my experience at the Augsburg Commons when I was sitting at a desk kind of
checking people in and I recognize how much more comfort I felt with a pen in my hand with something
to do with that pen. And tried intentionally to disarm myself by setting it aside. And looking at what that
looks like, and focusing on the body language. And so that self reflection, which I love, self reflection, I
love doing it, and I love the prompts towards it. But it always makes things more challenging when you
look at yourself, and how you can change do things better, or how you've been arming yourself in ways
you didn't realize. Or I should say how I've been arming myself in ways I didn't realize. Even with a pen
and a stethoscope.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:19
Because we're guarded by this task that we're charged with.
Theresa Reichert 26:23
Yep. And I'm focusing on this task, and writing down this name, when the more meaningful work is
talking to that person next to you. With all of that set aside?
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:41
Did any of these course concepts impact your current practice or your understanding of the profession
of nursing as a whole? And maybe if you have a story that could illustrate that?
-7-
Theresa Reichert 27:11
Yeah, that one, I might have to think a little bit more on. I mean, I know I talked about what, how I was
able to transform the culture of my practice, and really switch the mindset from some of the thinking in
the department that was really focused on some things that are traditionally associated with white
supremacy culture, so perfectionism, maybe defensiveness, either or thinking or I can't remember all of
them off the top of my head right now. But I saw a lot of that type of thinking. And the way that these
concepts and I tend to really map things in my mind in really connected ways. And so when I talk about
these concepts, they're concepts from the Making Room at the Table course, which was specifically
focused on some of the citizen nurse work. But like I said, it was embedded in all of the courses. So
I'm, I'm really speaking collectively of what I've learned. I was able to use a lot of that in my current
practice to shift the mindset into how do you create a community or department of belonging, where
you can really get input from each person on that team, but also from the patients and build up the
patients and the teams and deconstruct my own status as a leader in a way that helps us function
better? And really questioning what better looks like. So one example, maybe I could give you in
shifting thinking would be when looking at efficiency. And that's a prioritize thing in healthcare and
something we were trying to work on. And when we were seeing more patients, the doctor said, You
know what, I can see more patients, so by cutting the time with them, so if I cut out my lunch breaks,
and then I switched all the appointments to 15 minutes and 30 I could see more in a day. And just
asking questions like, well, what would that mean for the patients and what does that take away? And
what's the value of that to us? When we ended up saying, you know, it's really important that we keep
that 30 minutes with the patient and don't take that time away? How can we find efficiency somewhere
else without compromising the relationships we have because that's where if we don't have that time,
we're not going to get the information, we need to care for them or build in heavily into that relationship
piece. And their personal knowing and building trust, and all of that. So that's not a great example,
other than being in classes that allowed a shift in thinking, of my own thinking allowed a shift in practice.
And I think even a small shift of you know, what, we're not going to decrease the time with a patient,
we're going to look for other ways to be efficient, because we value that relationship signals something
different than it may be signals had been signaled before. Because prior to that, it hadn't even been
questioned like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we'll just do that. Instead of seeing relationship as a
value, and something really important that we are going to uphold. It's not a it's not a perfectly clear cut
example. But I think of that a lot when I think of shifting thinking the impact, because it ripples down to
the whole team, then.
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:25
So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
Theresa Reichert 31:39
So you asked which experiences or courses helped me kind of bring it all together?
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:44
Yeah, Where were those meaningful opportunities where you had maybe a aha moment kind of thing,
to where it integrated and it involves reflecting and integrating.
-8-
Theresa Reichert 31:57
Seeing it lived out by the professors was... there's so much depth and weight to seeing that lived out.
Seeing Katie, when I had gone to Augsburg Commons bring a healthy meal, share part of her meal that
she brought for one of the participants, because in how much he cared about his health, and that she
was partnering together with him, there is so much humanity in that action. And it was personal in the
walls of Well, I'm not going to keep my personal life and professional life totally separate, because
there's some humanity there that I don't want to separate from. That was powerful. The second was
when I saw Deb Schumacher recognize the strain and stress in the class and being willing to shift and
listen in a meaningful way. So, being a student, during a pandemic, especially with all the
responsibilities in health care. And the mental burden of all of that is a lot and the students in my class,
were talking about how challenging that was, and she listened. And she made changes based on that
to help. Basically, the professor listened to what we were saying not as complained, but complaining,
but through a caring, compassionate lens in a way that was really contradictory to what I had seen and
experienced as a faculty member, when students would bring concerns forward. That were seen as
complaining or trying to manipulate and get out of homework. The contrast of that and seeing, seeing
the values lived in action, and being willing to change themselves was transformative for me. And I
think that comes from again, like with Deb, being willing to listen and give us as much power in the
relationship as students as the professor and was really like, it makes my heart warm, fuzzy and feel
like I belong in that space because we were listened to and all of us got even closer because of it. And
then seeing Katie do that was do that meaning seeing Katie treat people with in suspend status and in
in that way, it was also different than I had seen for many nurses and building that relationship on an
equal playing field. So I would say for me seeing the professors live, what the citizen nurse concepts in
action was really transformative for me. Particularly building relationships, pulling information from the
stakeholders in the community at equal value. And then I saw lots of storytelling and narrative use as
well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:20
As you were describing it, I could see the parallel between the classroom experience and what you
described about keeping the time with patients at 30 minutes instead of 15. It's centralizing the
relationship for efficiency. Is there anything that you wished you'd learned at your during your time at
Augsburg but haven't yet?
Theresa Reichert 35:55
Right now I'm just enjoying the ride and it's hard to answer that question, because my mind is so full.
There are so many different things that that might be a question I can answer better five years from
now. Because I still have a whole year to go where I don't know what's coming. And so I think, yeah, I
don't think I can answer that question. I will say that it's exceeded my expectations of what I thought I
was going to learn and what I could learn. And I feel, I told in my interview for coming to the program,
that I wanted to come to Augsburg for personal and professional reasons, not just to get the DNP. And
check that off. So I could, I don't know have some sort of hierarchy in the nursing community and be
listened to or it wasn't that but there it was primarily for personal reasons, as far as wanting to learn
how I could be my most full self, in caring moments, however, that might look, whatever that might look
like. And I definitely, that exceeded my expectations as far as bringing out my authentic self, and that
-9-
being welcomed at Augsburg, which I hadn't felt in the same way. In many of the other programs,
though, St. Kate's was great. I love St. Kate's too. But this, this was a sense of belonging. That was
very different and welcoming, and a sense of place. That I really value. So I think there's a lot in there
that I'll still process through as time goes on. And I think the best teachers are the ones that keep
teaching you years after the teaching moment. And I think that I'm set up for that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 37:54
So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Theresa Reichert 38:04
How's the pandemic changed my view of the profession? I think that's also a hard question to answer
because the pandemic occurred also while I was in school. And so a lot of my shift in thinking could
also be attributed to some of the things I was reading and doing and seeing. One thing I may be
recognize is paying more attention to the stories we tell ourselves as nurses that might be myths, and
how that impacts our communities. So I mentioned one myth, we tell ourselves as nurses that this
might be a subconscious myth, but if we're caring we can't do harm, we're almost immune from harm or
the myth that nurses can be objective in assessments. I think those were challenged both in the
pandemic and also in my coursework. And thinking about those has been very valuable in looking at
where it is my place in nursing continue in journey forward. What does that look like? Um, so I wouldn't
I don't know my you know, my, my nursing journey has been so full of ups and downs and twists and
turns and shifts in thinking and so I wouldn't say that any of that has changed necessarily. So, like, for
example, when I was working at a urban Children's Hospital in Minnesota. And we had wonderful
people, it was the best culture of people that I've worked with. loved working there. They're great for it
was one of my first jobs. But then also I was seeing these good people, these good nurses when
patients were coming in. And there they were Somali patients in particular, that kept coming in for
vomiting and diarrhea after the first time they saw vomiting and diarrhea. And it was such a pattern that
instead of asking, why is this a pattern what's going on here? The nurses would be passive aggressive
towards the parents and patients who are scared and say, Tell me what your emergency is today, with
emphasis on emergency, what is the emergency that brings you here today, and just talk about them in
a really frustrated way. And so I thought of looking at what are the patterns here and recognize that
many of them had been coming from refugee camps where cholera was spreading, and could kill
quickly with either vomiting or diarrhea, symptoms. And so I saw nice people still doing harm or not
recognizing ways they could help, even from my first nursing career. So that wasn't new. But I think
what's new, was maybe my role in nursing, and that I had a place and then might, like, I always felt like
I thought differently about things or saw things a little differently. And I think what has shifted in me is
that I now see that that has a place in nursing too, and that I have a place and that the contributions
that I have are unique and valued. And they've been uplifted through my work at Augsburg and I think
that comes through Augsburg but also through the pandemic, because I've seen in the pandemic all the
pain caused by it. And families have experienced that type of pain, misinformation, the drama, the
attacks on people. And it's, it's made me think of what is nursing doing well, and what what are we
missing, that we're not actually treating some of the things that are causing some of the biggest pain in
our communities. And so again, it goes back to thinking and I think the pandemic has really gotten me
asking different questions about what nursing's role is, and how do we move forward? I know that was
a really long answer, kind of pulling in from different things.
- 10 -
Elaine Eschenbacher 42:51
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing
landscape of healthcare?
Theresa Reichert 42:59
I think I'm lucky that I feel like I have a voice with the institution I work for. I have heard and other
people having a very different experience. The leadership team that I work with, and the ways that they
uplift some of the same values that we were working on in school, I think, opens up more curiosity to
different thinking. Then, other places where I maybe have worked. So had I been still teaching and my
other role. I wouldn't have seen it as much, but I do now, see it in my current role. Do you mind
repeating that question one more time?
Elaine Eschenbacher 43:42
Sure. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare?
Theresa Reichert 43:51
So yeah, to go back to it, I have a voice now, in a small ways, in the landscape of my own specific
healthcare institution, I don't feel like I would have had a voice as much in academia. In my previous
experience, only I can only talk about that sliver. But I think once I officially had my degree, then I would
have a voice just based on hierarchy. So even though I did have a voice and was listened to it wasn't
the same. I can see that nursing looks different and it's not always in the hospital, and not always in
academia. And so through this pandemic, and things shifting, and all of the things that have kind of
trickled down I see a lot of work as a nurse actually, in my community. Specifically, there's a lot of racial
bullying in my community. I live near Coldspring, Minnesota Which this last year has had a lot of
racialized incidents. And then the school I send my kids to, also suffers from the myth of that doesn't
happen here. That type of stuff doesn't happen here. And so looking at how that impacts health in small
ways, in my little personal community to and what's my role in helping that as a citizen, but also a
nurse, and a parent and all of the above. So I think all the way that nursing shifts beyond the hospital
walls when I shouldn't say shift, because it's always been beyond the hospital walls. But I see so much
relevance in different ways of impacting the community than I did before.
Elaine Eschenbacher 45:54
Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask?
Theresa Reichert 46:00
You know, I should have prepared for that question. But I didn't. Not now. But the way that I think I'll
think of a million things later on, I'm sure.
- 11 -
Show less
Oral History with Taylor Kuramoto
Wed, 5/18 4:56PM
22:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, thought, math department, bonner, people, teaching, experience, professional,
civic, teacher, olaf, college, feel, civic leadership, adult, talk, education, community, questions
SPEAKERS
Taylo... Show more
Oral History with Taylor Kuramoto
Wed, 5/18 4:56PM
22:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, thought, math department, bonner, people, teaching, experience, professional,
civic, teacher, olaf, college, feel, civic leadership, adult, talk, education, community, questions
SPEAKERS
Taylor Kuramoto, Katie Clark
Katie Clark 00:03
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the citizen professional in
higher education. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the
Executive Director of Health commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 00:23
My name is Taylor Kuramoto. I graduated from Augsburg in May of 2015. And I'm a high school
math teacher currently.
Katie Clark 00:35
Wonderful. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to be
interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 00:46
Yes, I confirm.
Katie Clark 00:50
So, okay, so you just told me when you graduated from Augsburg, could you tell me a little bit
more about your educational background and what you study when you were at Augsburg?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 01:00
Yeah, I was actually a transfer student. So I had started my freshman year. I did my entire
freshman year at St. Olaf and transferred to Augsburg as a sophomore. When I transferred
schools, I basically like had to finish college in like the four years, one year at Augsburg and
three or one year at St. Olaf and three at Augsburg. So I kind of was like forced into majoring in
math, which in hindsight, or when I tell people that it's often like, oh, you you pick something
like actually really hard to major in which I didn't really think about it was just I was a above
average math student in high school and like, had taken calc my freshman year, because I
thought I had to. And math was the only major where I could graduate on time. And I just, there
was no way I could swing funds for a fifth year. So it was math. But it was actually a really great
experience. It was the Math Department and the math professors are like one of my favorite
parts of Augsburg. I did research on campus with oh, I forgot her name. No, but she's in the
social work department. And I wish I remembered, but I did a statistic project of her and I had
professors in the URGO office who helped me get an off campus summer research experience
at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. And it just being in the math department really
opened up a lot of doors to like experiences that I don't think I ever would have had, like, I'd
never thought I would spend the summer in Knoxville, Tennessee, studying like disease
modeling and cows. And being able to do that then got me a paid trip to a conference in
California, which I never thought I would be doing. But I was at the like national conference for
medical and biological, like modeling and sciences. So that was just yeah, like, I never thought
that was going to be my experience when I started college. And then I actually, so I graduated
Augsburg in May of 2015. And I was abroad, teaching English in South Korea, as like a Fulbright
English Teaching Assistant, and actually came back to Augsburg after that and some more
time, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, and entered the Masters of Arts and Education
program to get licensure to become a high school. Well, 6-12 math teacher. And once I got
licensure, I put pause on the graduate program so that I could get teaching experience. And I
was hired a few months after I finished the program to teach high school in St. Paul Public
Schools at Central High School where I've taught for two years, and I teach her like a range of
ages now.
Katie Clark 04:03
Great. And so in some of these questions, you know, you'll probably talk a little bit about in
multiple different ways. So are multiple different sections, just in case because you've
mentioned some of this already. But yeah. So thinking about your time at Augsburg were the
concepts of the citizen professional civic engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed
in your classes or programs. And if so, which ones if you remember.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 04:30
Not really in my classes, I think just by the nature of being in the math department, but that's
where I'm really grateful for being in Bonner leaders or Lead fellows now. It just added another
dimension to my college experience, like I been in the math department was like, kind of like
one section of my life at Augsburg and I played soccer at Augsburg as well, and that was kind
of like another section of it and being in lead fellows, or Bonner leaders at the time we feel is
now. Yeah, just added another dimension to being a college student that I could tell my peers
who were either just in the math department or just on the soccer team didn't have. And like
that experience of yeah, just, I'm really there that's in Lead fellows and Bonner is where like
civic engagement was talked about, that I otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to in like my
coursework or in the people that I engaged with.
Katie Clark 05:42
Totally, where was your placement when you were a Bonner or lead fellow?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 05:47
Well, I was all over the place. I had been at a after school program in the Phillips neighborhood I
had been at, one summer I was at a church. Also, in the Philips neighborhood, I had been an
intern for the Sabo Center. I also did a public achievement with Dennis Donovan for one, that
might have been a whole year actually. So I had been kind of all over to a lot of different
places. And that's something that I try to, like convey to even my students that I teach now is
like, you're going to learn so much more if you interact with people who have different
experiences than you. And that was like a big takeaway for me from being Bonner leaders and
Lead fellows.
Katie Clark 06:39
So in what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be more
ready for your professional role or civic leadership?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 06:54
I think that like teaching in and of itself is like, civic minded. I even thinking about like, yeah,
just reflecting even on, my last answer maybe wasn't in the math department. But it does come
up in a lot of education courses. Like it doesn't teaching doesn't exist in a vacuum and the ways
that the role of a teaching and like the systems of education interact with policies and
healthcare systems, and our transportation and systemic oppression, like it all just interacts
with each other. And that wasn't something that I really thought about as an undergraduate.
But coming back to Augsburg and being in education courses, and also just having an adults
with like, some lived experiences was helpful. I guess it's what I'm trying to say.
Katie Clark 08:05
Sure. So it prepared you to be in the world as it is maybe not as the world as it should be.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 08:12
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes my students will be like, how do you know XYZ things? And I'm like, I'm
just old.
Katie Clark 08:21
Okay. Okay. So have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement
experience to affect decision making or be an agent of change as a professional?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 08:38
Yeah, like I think being a teacher is all about community. Community in the classroom, but like
also community just like as in the school and in the larger community that your kids come from.
I tried to be at many events for students. It's my third in two weeks now going to some sort of
performance. Tomorrow will be the choir concerts. But and I think to just community is like all
about relationships. And it's, I think it is so hard, nearly impossible to be a good teacher if you
don't have strong relationships with your students with the people who you work with. Yeah.
Katie Clark 09:39
Great. And so this one's a little dense. So if I need to repeat it, okay. But, so, what connections
if any, do you see amongst your professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership? So
professional identity, vocation, very Augsburg, right? and civic leadership. Um and maybe you
don't it doesn't need to be a leading question.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 10:20
Students will often ask me like, if I always knew that I wanted to be a teacher and like, I didn't
think that I wanted to be a teacher. But being at Augsburg, we always talk about vocation. So
it's hard for me to, like convey to students of like, no, I really think this is like my calling. Like, I
think this is what I was, like, meant to do. My professional identity as a teacher. And like, I
really do feel called to teaching and education and in being an Bonner leaders and or lead
fellows, like, I felt called to service. Like, younger me often thought about, like, Oh, I think
working for the government in some sort of, like, research capacity might be what I wanted to
do. But older me was like, that doesn't feel like enough immediate change. And hence, I like,
became a teacher. I think to, like, in turn thinking of civic leadership, like, I can't think of
something more impactful than working with young people. It's always like a joke of like,
teachers are shaping the minds of the future. But sometimes I do look at my students. And I'm
like, wow, you are really brilliant. Like you will do like really great things. That in thinking too,
about, like at St. Paul Public Schools, they're going to start doing graduation requirement for
critical ethnic studies. And a big conversation that we've had at our school, this at our school is
detracking accelerated math classes, because something that we've noticed is that our
accelerated classes are predominantly white and are not accelerated classes are predominantly
students of color. And what I've noticed, because I teach both accelerated and non accelerated
courses is that my classes that are not accelerated, have students of all races and ethnic
backgrounds and they are able to talk to anyone work with anyone. And something that we've
talked about all the time is the ability to, like, work with anyone. And what I've noticed in a lot
of my classes that are mostly white is that they only interact with students who are also white.
And that when they are faced or presented with working with someone who is different than
them, whether that's their race, or ethnicity, or even just somebody who has a different gender
than them or someone who just socializes differently. My students in my accelerated classes
really struggled to work with people who are different from them. And so I think about, I don't
even think about I forced my students to sit in randomly assigned seats every quarter, and they
complain about it. And I always tell them, like, when you leave school, like there are no there
are very few structures of how to practice talking to people who are different than you. And
like, when you are in the world, like everyone is different than everyone, like, you're never the
same as the person that you're working with. And like we have to practice inside these
structures of like, how do I work with talk with ask questions to people who are different than
me? So I think, yeah, in thinking about civic leadership, I take some pride in helping students
be confident in themselves because I know that like that will translate into their adult lives and
their ability to communicate effectively with people just like everyone.
Katie Clark 14:32
That's great. So do you think when you have like a challenge in your current position, or when
you're teaching or you see something in the system? Do you think you're more better equipped
to try to navigate that challenge because of some of your experiences at Augsburg or do you
feel like, you seem like a very like resourceful and diligent and relational person? So do you
think It's just part of who you are, or do you think Augsburg helped to develop some of those
skills during your time at Augsburg?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 15:07
I think Augsburg helps. Um, when when I got to Augsburg I really didn't know like what I wanted
to do or where I wanted to go or any of that and being at all, like when I left as a part of the
reason I left St. Olaf was because I was at like a predominantly white institution that was did
not feel like a safe space. For me as someone who's not white and did not feel like I was
represented in any circles that I was in, socially, or even academically. And I had a lot of like,
negative experiences with students at St. Olaf. And when I got to Augsburg I met so many
people who were like me in the sense of, they were also like, figuring out their identity, how
they move through the world, or they were really confident in who they are, who they are, what
their story is. And it was really like, it felt like a safe space to be just me that I didn't feel like I
could do that at my previous college. And I found a lot of, I also felt like, there were a lot of
people at Augsburg, who, like me, were just like, hustling to get work done. Like, were really
motivated. And I think I maybe just wasn't in the right circles at my first college, but there was
a an aspect of like, community that I felt at Augsburg that I didn't feel like I had at my first one,
whether that's the experience of going through kind of like, racial and ethnic understand
identity, or, and or also just like, working hard, because like, this is this is our one shot and we
like have to take it.
Katie Clark 17:17
Great. So would you say or would you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if you
don't use that term?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 17:31
Taylor Kuramoto 17:31
I think so, I guess like civic or citizen professional? Would that mean like?
Katie Clark 17:41
So probably you probably talked about when you're a Bonner. So basically, like somebody
who's very, like, co creative and engaged in the community around them and can kind of de
emphasize that expert role.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 17:54
Yeah. All the time, kids will be like, is this the answer? And I'm like, You tell me because like,
you have all the knowledge as well. Kids will often ask students will often ask things like, Ah,
this, you know, XYZ, ABC thing isn't fair. And I'm like, It's not fair. What can you do about it?
Like, I am, I am one person. Yes, I am an adult. And I hold this assumed authority as your
educator, but like, your voice, and your power is probably even stronger and more than mine.
So like, what can you do about it? What could you say about it? Who could you organize? Yeah,
and I mean, that's something that I tried to do in classrooms and thinking just about like,
oftentimes, teachers view themselves as the people who hold all the knowledge and all the
power. And that is like the opposite of what I try to do. I've really tried to focus on getting
students to build skills to answer their own questions and solve their own problems. So that is
their teacher and in some art, am in some ways, obsolete, that you don't really need me to
answer your questions, because you know how to answer your own question.
Katie Clark 19:11
Yeah, well, I think one thing that I'm kind of finding throughout these interviews is that
sometimes the language of civic professional or citizen professional, they're kind of used
interchangeably, doesn't really resonate with students at times. So I just wonder if, if the word
is meaningful to you at all? Or if there's a better word or if it seems like it's a good description,
or a good fit, as long as we kind of describe what it is?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 19:45
Yeah, I guess like when I hear the phrase, civic, professional or citizen and professional, it
makes me think of like someone whose role is in service of others, and I don't know if that's
really a correct or approiate way to think of it. Yeah,
Katie Clark 20:03
that's a really good way of saying it. Yeah. I don't know that that's exactly what we're trying to
get at. Right. Thank you for that. So two more questions. And this one is asking you more. Is
there anything that you wish you learned at your time at Augsburg that you didn't? Is there
other opportunities or experience you wish that you had to prepare you for your future career,
or just being in the world as it is?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 20:35
I can't think of anything, either. All of the things that I've the major things that come to my
mind when I think about things I've struggled with after leaving Augsburg are like detailed
things about being an adult, like which health insurance plan I have to choose and like, what's a
deductible, like all of these things that you learn at a certain age? And like, yeah, they matter.
But in the long run, like you have health insurance, or like, filing my taxes is always a pain. But
I've I've, in all of my experiences at Augsburg, I feel I left feeling well, at the time, I didn't leave
feeling very prepared. When I look back on all the experiences I had, I'm really grateful for
everything that I did while I was at Augsburg because when I talked to other people, their
experiences in college were pretty singular, like either they were just doing their major, or they
were like, some of my some people that I know from college, maybe like their highlight of
college was played a sport, or, and their academic work was not as interesting to them, or they
didn't have an experience like Bonner or Sabo scholars or, you know, some other activity to to
balance their experience. I left as an adult looking back, I feel really grateful that I had all of
these different dimensions to to what I did in college.
Katie Clark 22:15
That's beautiful. So the last question is, is there anything you wish that I would have would that
you'd like to share that I didn't ask about? So.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 22:31
I can't think of anything.
Katie Clark 22:34
Great. So that concludes our interview. So thank you for your time today.
Show less
Oral History with Shelley Pacheo (2022)
Mon, 4/4 3:43PM
15:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, civic engagement, student, classes, civic, experiences, professional, vocation, sociology,
graduate, community, huge, talk, civic leadership, term, debate, lead, learn, citizen, working
SPEAKERS
Ka... Show more
Oral History with Shelley Pacheo (2022)
Mon, 4/4 3:43PM
15:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, civic engagement, student, classes, civic, experiences, professional, vocation, sociology,
graduate, community, huge, talk, civic leadership, term, debate, lead, learn, citizen, working
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Shelly Pacheco
Katie Clark 00:03
Okay, so thank you for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the civic professional in higher ed. My name is
Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and Executive Director of the Health
Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:24
Yeah, so um, I'm Shelley Pacheco, a third year here at Augsburg double majoring in political
science and sociology. Yes.
Katie Clark 00:36
Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having an interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public.
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:47
Yes, I do consent.
Katie Clark 00:49
Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg University?
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:54
Shelly Pacheco 00:54
I'll be graduating spring 2023. Yes.
Katie Clark 01:01
Great. And can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? And what you're
currently studying at Augsburg?
S
Shelly Pacheco 01:08
Yeah, so I'm doing a double major in political science and sociology, I have always been
interested in social issues that are going on and how, like, it affects my community. So yeah,
I'm really passionate about those things. And I just love giving back to my community. That's a
really core my life and yeah, yes, I'm planning on hopefully getting a job into law enforcement.
Right after I graduate. So yes.
Katie Clark 01:38
How did you choose Augsburg out of all the other universities you could have chosen?
S
Shelly Pacheco 01:43
That's a really interesting question. It i It wasn't my first choice. To be honest. I came here
because of the financial aid. I got a full ride. So I'm like, Yeah, I have to take. So that's pretty
much what I mean after that, like the community so amazing here, though, people, the
students are just very supportive, and it's very diverse. So yeah, I'm glad I came here.
Katie Clark 02:08
Wonderful. So thinking back over your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of the citizen
professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills discussed in your classes or
programs that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you do remember?
S
Shelly Pacheco 02:28
Oh, yeah. So I did Summer Bridge in 2019. Summer 2019. And that's when I got introduced to
LEAD Fellows. Um, how I heard about him was through LaToya, I love LaToya. Yes, yeah. So she
introduced me to the program, and suggested that I apply. So I applied and I ended up getting
a job. Minnesota UDL (Urban Debate League), which is like the debate league here in
Minnesota. So I did it for my first year. And then ever since that I've been doing LEAD Fellows.
Right now I'm currently working at Trinity Church, which is like a homework help after school.
So I basically like tutor, mentor, middle school through high school students. But in terms of my
classes, oh, I don't know. I don't. I say only in my sociology. Yeah. And political classes. So I
major classes were like, I hear about civic engagement. I really long like, those are like the
classes were like the require, but like, I have to take them. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, like, it's
mostly like I say, we only talk about it when there's like, something really big going on. But
other than that, like, we just really don't talk about it.
Katie Clark 03:57
So which experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate
lessons across coursework, and community engaged learning? So describe any of those
experiences.
S
Shelly Pacheco 04:13
Can you elaborate on that question?
Katie Clark 04:16
What is trying to ask you this? So some of the stuff that you learned when you were a LEAD
fellow? Were any of those concepts and the concepts we just kind of talked about? And I think
you kind of answered this question. Where are they really in your course work? Could they were
they connected?
S
Shelly Pacheco 04:31
Oh, so for my sociology and law class. We did a project. So I don't know if you remember. Like
the big elections that we just had for the mayor. What is the word I forgot the term as a strong
versus weak mayor and then the public safety department and then the rent bill? Yeah, so
based on those two bills, we did our debate in my class, where we like, invited the public to
learn more about the debate and like what was going to be on the ballot. So that really like that
is really shows how like, my sociology class was really intertwined with my LEAD fellow. So very
engaging work. So yeah, it was really interesting. We did debate, had to write an essay and
then we also did our newspapers, through the echo.
Katie Clark 05:30
So would you say any of your time that you're like tutoring at Trinity? Does any of that those
experiences really pertain? Or help you better understand any of your coursework?
S
Shelly Pacheco 05:45
Oh, well, I'm not really like an education major. I say, it's mostly, like, for me how I can better
tell, like, bringing like cultural awareness in my classroom and like, be a better leader for those
kids. So yeah.
Katie Clark 06:04
In what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be ready for a
professional role or civic leadership when you graduate?
S
Shelly Pacheco 06:15
Oh, I think for me, it's mostly LEAD fellows, that's like a been, it's been really helpful in my
here, like my years here at Augsburg. We'll learn about social issues that are going, on how to
be a better student, how to like, fight against the status quo, you know. I think like having
those talks and like with my classmates, and like, talk about those topics, like it's really huge,
and like, also the student orgs here at Augsburg I know, this year, they did a lot of focus
groups, more like they will bring our students and alumni, talk about their experiences here at
Augsburg, like what it means to be a minority here are experts. So I think like the student orgs
and LEAD fellows, they're just like, really big on those topics.
Katie Clark 07:24
So have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experiences to
affect decision making or be an agent of change as a professional? If so, how? So learned any
real skills from your community engagement time or LEAD fellow time that has allowed you to
feel like you could create change when you see it needed?
S
Shelly Pacheco 07:54
Oh, yeah. I'm also in student government I'm the junior class president, and it's just been really
interesting to see how there's so many student concerns going on. And there's just barely
enough time to like, do something about these issues. All right, now we're working on parking.
Parking is really bad for commuters. There's no really no spaces. But DPS continues on selling
passes, even though there's not many slots. So yeah, that's just a really huge thing. And I think
like, just learning about student concerns, and like, what I think about my personal opinions,
you know, like, yeah, like parking is a huge thing here on campus. But there's also like other
things that might be more important to other students. So I think like setting aside my personal
opinion, and like the student concerns is really interesting for me. Yeah, it's just like, student
government, like really helps you like, use your civic engagement skills.
Katie Clark 09:04
So what connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and
civic leadership? It's kind of a dense question. So what connections between professional
identity or where you are thinking you'll end up but I would say you probably have a
professional identity now your vocation and then civic leadership.
S
Shelly Pacheco 09:29
Yeah, so like I said, Before, I have always, I just love giving back to my community and just
Yeah, so like I said, Before, I have always, I just love giving back to my community and just
anything so I, if I do become part of law enforcement, I think like civic engagement is gonna be
a huge thing in my life where like, I have to decide what given back to my community or like,
given to like the broader community here in the US. I'm a minority, so like, working for people
that are not minority, it's just like gonna put me in that position where like, well, what did I do?
Like, did I listen to my community or listen to like folks who are not like me. And I didn't just
being in that position. Like, it just shows how like, my civic engagement skills are gonna be put
into play, you know, like, I have two make those big decisions. And in terms of my vocation I
don't know, I just feel like, like I know Augsburg is like really huge on that like, oh, like, you
gotta find your vocation, like, what's your vocation? You know? So yeah, it's just, it's just a lot
to navigate as a junior right now, like, you have to think about what you're going to do after
you graduate? Like, is this something that it's going to give back to you communities is
something that you're really passionate about? Or you're just doing it because of like, the
financial barrier?
Katie Clark 11:01
Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that specific term? If
you do, can you describe that or explain it to others? It was probably a term you use when
you're a LEAD fellow, a civic, or citizen, professional, so kind of somebody who's engaged in the
community around them. Do you see yourself as being an engaged citizen?
S
Shelly Pacheco 11:31
Oh, yeah, I mean, I say right now, I'm pretty involved here at Augsburg. I do a lot of things that
I can reflect on. I don't think I am a like civic professional right now. And even like, after I
graduate, like, just given back to the community, it's just a really huge thing in my life.
Katie Clark 12:00
Great. Is there anything that you wish you would have learned at your time at Augsburg, but
you haven't yet?
S
Shelly Pacheco 12:13
Well I just wish we have a done mentor mentee program. Like as a first gen, there's like a lot
that I had to do for myself. Like there's a lot of places are like even like for my major, like, I'm
not really used to like a how to navigate all of this like for myself, by myself. Like there's no
like, really anyone holding me accountable for my grades. My class, like the classes I gotta
take, like, what? What is there to do after you graduate? So I think if Ausburg had a program,
like a mentee, mentor, mentee program like that will be really helpful for like, first gen students
here at Augsburg.
Katie Clark 12:56
Is there other opportunities or experiences that you wish you would have had to prepare you
Is there other opportunities or experiences that you wish you would have had to prepare you
for your future career while you're here?
S
Shelly Pacheco 13:03
I think just more hands on, like, I know, for my classes, like it's just mostly lecture. And there's
not really like any activities where like, you have to engage with your students, your
classmates, and they're just like, a lot go. Like relationship between like you and your
classmates, I guess, like you go to class, you sit, there, listen to me 45 minutes for lecture. And
after that you leave, like, no one else really talks to each other outside of class. And like, only
when it's like required to like, do class or were like, oh, yeah, I have to tell to like the person
right next to me. And now because I want to because it's required for me to do so I think just
like having more hands on projects will be really helpful.
Katie Clark 13:49
So when we talk about the concepts like civic agency, you know, citizen professional, those
words, in particular, do those words resonate with you? Or do you can you think of other better
terminology that would better kind of get at what we're trying to say? Especially, you know,
with your generation.
S
Shelly Pacheco 14:12
Right. Think like civic engagement is pretty straightforward. Like it says on the term, the like,
yeah, like, it's like about social issues, just bringing awareness to what's going on in the world.
So yeah, I think it is good to use those terms.
Katie Clark 14:33
Great. Well, that's all the questions that I have for you. So is there anything you would like to
share with us that I didn't ask?
S
Shelly Pacheco 14:42
No, I think it's good that like Augsburg really cares about their students and like it's asking
about their experiences with civic engagement and like, with everything that it's that has been
going on, like, I'm glad that like, it doesn't go unnoticed. You know, like, there's actually like
research been done here at Augsburg for students so that's good.
Katie Clark 15:06
Well that concludes our interview so I just want to thank you for your time
S
Shelly Pacheco 15:10
S
Shelly Pacheco 15:10
thank you
Show less
Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral histo... Show more
Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral history today,
sister Sharon, welcome. And please introduce yourself.
Sharon Al-Emin 0:33
Thank you. Thank you Sister Khadra. Again, my name is Sharon Al Emin. I am a African
American Muslim woman. I have been here in the Twin Cities area for over 30 years. I am
married with three children that also resides in the Twin Cities area. I don't know how do you
want me to give you a little bit more? Yes. I currently serve as Minneapolis school board director
for our North Side schools here in the Minneapolis area. My full time position, I work for
Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. I work in the finance division, where I do accounts
payable. So that is my full time job. In addition to that, I serve as the mosque food coordinator, I
volunteer my time to help with a lot of the food projects that go on at the masjid. So that's just a
little bit about who I am. What I do, and I'm sure we'll get a little further into detail about who I
am and what I represent.
Khadra Mohamed 1:38
Yes, thank you. So you told me about, you said you have been in the Twin Cities For how long?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:49
It'll be 30 years. It'll be 30 years soon here. So about 30 years. Yes. Yeah. So
Khadra Mohamed 1:54
tell me about where you from where you born, where you've been raised?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:58
Okay. Yep. So Chicago is my hometown, Chicago, Illinois. Born and raised there. My father, my
mother and father both lived there. My father still resides in a home that we were raised in. My
mother passed away from breast cancer when I was 16 years of age. So at a very young age,
she was 43 years old. So just very, very hard time for me as a young mother at that time to be
without my mom. And so I had to grow up very quickly, because I was responsible for another
person that was looking up to me as mom now. So Chicago is my hometown. My family is a
family of seven. I have there's four girls, and there are three boys. Currently, two of my brothers
have passed away, but the five of us are still living. So I come from a pretty large family. I was
raised, and Christian religion. So going to church, you know, celebrating the Easter holidays, or
Christmas holidays was all part of my childhood. When I relocated to Minneapolis area when I
was 19 20 years of age, is when I relocated to the Twin Cities area. My husband and I had met
when he was in Chicago, in the University of Chicago for school, we met there, he kinda, you
know, made the decision to come back home. And I slowly came behind him to the Twin Cities
area. So my husband, as you know, his Imam Makram. At the time when we met, he was not
the Imam he was, you know, a young Muslim man, that was, you know, definitely still practicing
his religion. And we both began to study it together. So at that time, I moved to Minnesota back
in 1990 1990. And I remember 91 was when the terrible snowstorm hit, and I was like, why did I
move to this place, but every week located in 1990, with my now husband, and I began to study
the religion back in 1991, studied it for about two years myself, just again, wanting to make sure
that I understood what Islam it was this you know, something that I could live up to wasn't
something that I could see myself, being proud of me being my life. And so after studying and
seeing the beauty, and the religion of Islam and understanding the role of the woman and
understanding how Islam strengthens us and make us stronger, connects our families and
connects our community. And really, just gives you the opportunity to live the best life that you
can. I took my Shahada in 1992 and I've been Muslim ever since a, again, African American
Muslim woman practicing my religion every single day. Right now we're going through the month
of Ramadan. And I must say that every time I read the Quran, I walk away with something new,
something different, a different understanding, a more heightened understanding of our religion.
And so for me, Islam is my way. I am proud to be a African American Muslim woman here in my
religion able to stand for what I believe.
Khadra Mohamed 5:44
Yes, thank you, Sharon. So you touched about that your mom passed away? When you were 16
years old?
Sharon Al-Emin 5:59
16 years of age? Yes.
Khadra Mohamed 6:00
Um, yeah. And then you had someone who was dependent on you did you had a sinling.
Sharon Al-Emin 6:07
I actually had a I was a teen mom. So I was a teen mom. Yes. So my daughter, my daughter, I
had actually just given birth to my daughter a couple months before she passed away. And so I
was young, you know, I was with a baby and then lost my mom, it was a very, very, very hard
time for me. But fortunately, I had my older sisters, my father, you know, still to this day is still
very present in my life. And I was able to stay grounded. And understand that I had a
responsibility. Now, that was dependent on me. So I had to grow up fast. I always say I had to
mature, I had to accept the responsibility and become a woman very, very, very fast in my life.
So
Khadra Mohamed 6:54
yes, that's, that's very early age to be mom and raise a kid and at the same time lost your,
Unknown Speaker 7:04
your mother,
Khadra Mohamed 7:07
it was not easy. Then you say you had two brothers?
Sharon Al-Emin 7:12
I have, I actually have three brothers. Okay. Two that have passed away, and one that's still
living. So out of the seven, there are five of us that are still living, and I myself and my sister are
the only two that are in Minnesota, all the other still reside in Chicago.
Khadra Mohamed 7:34
Okay, um, tell me about your dad.
Sharon Al-Emin 7:41
My father. He's amazing. He's a, you know, black African American man, who has always been
there for his family. He is currently still living, he will be 84 this year in sha Allah, still able to
pretty much get around himself. My father was he was a truck driver all his life. So again, you
know, came to the era where education was very limited. He had a sixth grade, high school
education. And then, you know, like all the others back in 1938, when he was born, you know,
so, living during living during those times, when it was about survival. It was about surviving for
your family. And they, he knew the importance of education, but surviving was even more more
of a responsibility for him. So providing for his family. So my father is, he's an amazing man who
still today, he still goes to the churches every Sunday to practice his religion. And we still talk
once a week, once a week here. Yes. Great,
Khadra Mohamed 8:53
great. Um, so you've converted to Islam. Can you tell me more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 9:05
Yes, I took my Shahada, what is known as the declaration when you become a Muslim, you
have to take your Shahada. So you have to stand before and submit, submit to yourself and
take the declaration of owning Islam as your way in submit to not being forced. And doing this
under your own will and under your own accord. I studied Islam for I want to say about two
years before I made the decision, because again, I wanted to understand, I wanted to
understand what it meant to be a Muslim. I wanted to understand the five pillars in Islam. I
wanted to understand the prayer in Islam and what it meant for the woman you know, to wear
the hijab and how she was to carry herself and how she is the nurture of the home All those
things were very critical to me. So I took it upon myself to begin studying the Quran to study,
read lots of different books to study, different Hadees and learn about our Prophet Mohammed
salatu salam in just making sure again, that it was something that I understood that I felt like I
could live up to and be able to answer any questions or answer to my Lord, as to why this is
something that I have chosen to do.
Khadra Mohamed 10:35
Thank you. That's amazing. Yeah, for you to be able to learn, you're the new religion that you
have just converted and be able to answer questions and all that. So I know you've touched
about the role of the woman. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 11:05
Yeah, and you know, and I say in Islam, but it's really no different in all the religions right? As a
mother, we are the nurturers, right. So we are the mothers, we are the doctors, we are the
teachers we are, you know, we are the ones who try to make sure our home is held in the right
way we are, we are the nurturers. So we are the ones that care for our children we do for our
children were at the schools, were educating our children, we are doing all these things. Islam is
just a reminder of the role that we as women play. And so the beauty to me when it when Islam,
it just shows again how, as a woman, we have our roles, right and I, I say roles in a very lenient
way. Because it doesn't restrict us that we can only do just that. We know that again, being
leaders in our home that we can step out and lead in any way because we have had this
experience and our homes. But it's time again, it just it raises the woman on a highest of levels,
right when we talk about women in Islam, and we read about the different stories from our
Prophet, and we know of the stories when when someone was less came to the Prophet x the
story about who should he go to, when he was dealing with this difficult situation. And the
Prophet directed him to his mother. And he said, then Who, and he said, Your mother, and then
he said, and then who he said, Your mother again, and then your father. And so in just seeing
the emphasis and the weight that we as women carry on us, it gets to be very heavy, and
overwhelming. But Allah does not place anything on us that we cannot bear. And and that's a
reminder for me, as a woman as I try to fulfill my role in my home, as a wife, right? As a sister,
as a friend, as a sister in Islam and trying to do the different things that we do in our massages
in our mosque. Those are all the little reminders that remind me that yes, I am a woman. But at
the same time we have to understand that Allah wouldn't put anything on us greater than we
can bear.
Khadra Mohamed 13:33
Yes, thank you so much for sharing that shirt. Um, I also want to ask you about your education.
And when you were you went to university or school.
Sharon Al-Emin 13:47
Yep. So again, my my education is in Illinois. So I graduated from Chicago Public Schools. I
have attended some community colleges here in the Twin Cities area and actually more online
abroad. So I have two years of business in my associates degree towards that. So again,
business is my strength. But I find so many different areas where my passion drives me
towards. Right and so I have my bachelor's in business.
Khadra Mohamed 14:28
Um, you have you mentioned that you had worked with the sheriff's office. Could you tell us
about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 14:39
I work for the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office. Right here, downtown Minneapolis area. I have
actually been with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office for six years now. I work in the finance
division. So again, the accounts payable really had on and a lot of the accounts, set up
accounts, making sure that The bills and stuff for the sheriff's department are within budget and
are being paid within a correct manner. So I am a civilian within the Hennepin County Sheriff's
Department, which again, just kinda is the public service, public service work that I continue to
do for my community.
Khadra Mohamed 15:23
Yeah, um, you also mentioned that you are on the board of Minneapolis Public Schools.
Sharon Al-Emin 15:30
Yep.
Khadra Mohamed 15:30
Um, can you tell me more about that? And what have driven you to go on that route?
Sharon Al-Emin 15:37
Yes, sure. So I recently elected to the Minneapolis school board, I took my seat in January of
this year, January 2021. School Board is a four year term that we serve, it is an elected position
that the community election, you and you have the opportunity to serve your community. Within
the Minneapolis school board, it is structured with nine other school board, representatives. And
so I am one of the nine, we pretty much govern the school district, and the policies, and again,
the budget, the finances, and how the school is governed. We have our main, we supervise the
superintendent of the school. So that is our job to make sure that the superintendent is serving
our communities, our families, and the best way that they can. And so for me my passion. I
again, I have three children, although my children have went to Minneapolis Public Schools, and
so I had the opportunity to be in the schools, I had the opportunity to build relationships with my
children's teachers, I know the importance of having a parent present within the school, and
whether that's physically present or just communication, right, just make sure that that teacher
and that that school knows that you support them, you are there for your child, and you are your
child's number one fan, if you will, number one cheerleader, right, and that you will be there to
support them all the way. And so I I built lots of relationships throughout my children's school
here. I was president of parent organizations, I have set on site councils, again, to make sure
that our schools have what they need the resources that they need, in order for our children to
succeed. It gave me an opportunity to see how our system and as we know, today, our system
is is continuing to fail our children, and especially our black and brown children, right. And so my
passion for me is was to get on this board to learn more, and to be able to bring it back to my
community. Because the more that we as parents are educated about how the school system
works, the more that we can challenge them about the resources and question and understand
where the dollars are coming from, where they're going, and how much more we need. Right.
And so for me, I saw that a lot of it wasn't that our parents were not actively involved in their
children's education. Sometimes we just didn't know. We just didn't know. It was the school not
communicating to us, as black and brown parents the best way that they can, it was the school
system, judging our lifestyles as a way to say that we are not committed right or that we are not
involved in our children life. And so for me, it's it's a cycle, it's the system. It's the status quo that
needs to be broken. But in order for us to do that, we have to be more educated, we have to
understand, and we have to be able to mobilize our community and bring our parents and our
mothers together. Mothers fathers, and when I say parents, I'm not just talking about mothers
and fathers, right, because sometimes a parent shows up as an older sister. Sometimes the
parents shows up as the it, who's at home, while the mother is trying to work, right? Sometimes
the parent shows up as that uncle who has a little more time and flexibility in his schedule, why
the dad is trying to go out and provide for his family. And so when I say parent I'm speaking very
broad. In terms of parent I'm not just talking about mother and father. Are we freezing up here?
Khadra Mohamed 20:05
I had a little bit of internet issue there.
Sharon Al-Emin 20:10
So I'm not sure if you miss much. But again, when I, when I'm talking about parent involvement
is very broad. It's from all different avenues, not just a mother and father, it's whoever we can
get to represent that child and to be by that child side during that time when needed. So, yeah,
so that is my passion. That is what drove me to run for school board. Again, we have to, I say,
all the time, we have to occupy the seats, so that we can understand and so that our children
can see see us and all these different ways and all these different models, and know that they
can be in these different roles and models, too. So.
Khadra Mohamed 20:54
Okay, thank you, Sharon, for sharing that. And I thank you for doing the job you're doing at the
Minneapolis Public Schools and the board. I know and I also am a special education assistance,
Minneapolis Public Schools, and we know the struggles that students, brown and black students
and families go through every day. So um, what would you like to see change in the school
system?
Sharon Al-Emin 21:32
Oh, that's a heavy one. What would I like to see change in the schools, I want to see more
parent engagement. I want to see
more
a welcoming way for parents to be involved. We have to open the doors and let our parents in,
we have to open the door so that our parents and our teachers and our educators can build
relationships, and work together, we have to work together again, so that we are educating our
communities to understand that why our schools are underfunded, and why we are not able to
have all the resources, the way that we know is so needed, and how do we move together?
Again, how do we mobilize together to make those things happen? I want to see more dollars
going towards our schools. I mean, you know, better than I do, probably the need for in our
special education department. Right. And then when we go again, into our North Side School,
which I am the school board directors for the North side, we know that we are even less
fortunate than some of our white suburban schools, right? We know that we sometimes deal
with our schools not functioning. And the best way, we know that we sometimes I'm not gonna
say sometimes we know that our schools are staffed with more of the inexperienced teachers,
right. But we are the most diverse. on the north side, we are the most challenging when it
comes to the north side. Our children are brilliant, and they just need to be able to be taught in a
different ways. So how do we make sure that our teachers are culturally trained? Right? How do
we make sure that we leave the space for our teachers and our educators to know that we
support them, and the work that they are trying to do and provide all of that they need to be the
best that they can be? So it's it's a heavy load that we all carry. So right now, my priorities within
the school, again, is the parent engagement. I think the more that we can educate our parents
about what the school district actually represent. Where do the dollars come from? Where do
we, where did the resources come from? Whose doors Do we need to go knock that right?
When it comes to more dollars? Is it the senate? Is it our legislative is that you know, we have to
educate our community more when it comes to that and understanding the structure of how the
school is formulated. So that is my goal.
Khadra Mohamed 24:43
Thank you. Um, I also wanna come back to your role and engagement in the community and
the mosque. Tell me more about that.
Sharon Al-Emin 24:59
So I know sometimes I don't know which hat I'm wearing, right? It gets to be so much, but um,
you know, I am the wife of a Imam. And so I mesh to this continuously growing masji al Nur is
where I call home, it is where it's my home, which is located in North Minneapolis here. So I am
going to backtrack just a little bit. Because the masjid it has grown so expeditiously and doing so
many things now. We, we started, where are we in 2021, I want to say about 10 years ago,
when we were just very small, we just masjid al noor, and we began to do our hot meal
program, I was the food coordinator over that. And so every first Sunday of the month, I would
come in and I would prepare 100 meals to be given out to the community. So it was 100 hat
meals that we will prepare, and you know, I would be there cooking the meals up buying the
meals, a lot of times with other sisters, we would purchase the meals, we would cook the meal
serve the meals, and make sure that we were doing diligence in our community. So that was
one of the programs that I had a spearhead for a a couple of years now, at masjid al Nor
transitioning into now we have the Al maa'uun side, which kind of handles more of the food
administrators, the hat meals that are going on, which is which is which is really grew, which is
really grew. So it's more it's a lot more structured. Now. It was like taking that small idea and
expanding it right. And so now we have much more of a food program at our Masjid under Al
maa'uun. That's, I don't spearhead that. But again, I'm the wife of the Imam. So I have to step in
wherever it's needed. Wherever the call is still, I also was a teacher, for our students, our
Muslim children, so make sure again, that we were teaching them their religion, to make sure
that they had the opportunity to explore and understand who they are as young adults, so I have
been in the role of a teacher at our mosque, you know, creating all the different avenues of Girl
Scouts, working with our young ladies teaching them how to just again step into womanhood
and teaching them their religion. I have also coordinated a lot of the different food drives for
giveaways that we do again, through bash the door. Fast forward now, which is Al maa'uun
which is spearheaded by a different group. Because again, it began to grow so much that we
needed additional help so so yeah, that that's, that's just a little bit about me and the role that I
play within the masjid right now. So, yes.
Khadra Mohamed 28:18
Okay, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Sharon. I also want to ask you about your
husband, the Imam, can you tell me about him and what he does?
Sharon Al-Emin 28:30
Oh, wow, no. My husband, my Makram, we have actually been married 20 it'll be 29 years this
year. 100 de la so we have had the opportunity to grow with each other. He is the Imam of the
masjid. He became the Imam Masjid when my son. Gosh, how old was that son? I want to say
two. So my son was born in 1993. He became the man back in 1995. Again, we were young, we
were young, you know, but we were I want to say that we were ready for the role that allow us
putting us into we were ready to assume the position, if you will, right. So it's been a Imam of the
masjid since 1995. He is also a life coach. So he does some life coaching. Along with again, just
numerous things that he does. He is the founder of Al Maa'uun, which is really again, like I said,
is growing expeditiously. And all the different avenues from working with the food programs to
housing programs to employment training that he oversees to just a number of they he's part of
the interfaith coalition. So, again, making sure we have that list of representation within our
interfaith community, so that we, people know that we are Muslims. And we show up and we
bring what we stand for. And so he has quite the full plate, but alhamdulilah alhamdulileh.
Khadra Mohamed 30:22
Thank you. That's, yes, he does a lot. It's well known in the community. May Allah bless him for
what he does. Um, the other question that I wanted to ask you is, what? Where do you see
yourself in the future? Or where you want to be? Personally, the masjid and anything that you
want to add?
Unknown Speaker 30:53
Sure, sure.
Sharon Al-Emin 30:56
You know, Khadra, that is, I am just gonna be open and honest with you something that I am
struggling with myself right now. Right? community is my passion. So community is my passion,
working with the schools, working with the parents, is my passion. But I also hold my full time
job with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. Right now today, I'm struggling with still
being able to show up for my full time job, because my heart is in my community. And so for me,
my future is more of a full time role within my community, a full time role where I can bring more
information to our mosque, to make sure that when we talk about education, that we have our
Muslims at the table, that we have our Muslim representation, that our families are able to not
be afraid of who they are. Right, and we can show up and not be afraid, right? I mean, even as
a African American Muslim, our challenges are different, right? Our challenges are different from
your challenges, right? Because of culture, because a different I thought we're both black we
have we still have a difference within ourselves. And so for me, I can remember my my children
going to school, and the during the time of Ramadan, right, and almost felt like they were
isolated because all the other children were not participating in Ramadan. Right. So and I do
apologize, you know, where Ramadan were fasting its. dry mouth. So I can remember having
conversations with my children about Ramadan, and explaining to them why we are fasting, and
having to explain to them over and over and over why we don't celebrate Christmas, right? And
having to explain to them why our religion, fast forwarding to the Aedes is only the one day and
Christmas, they get the two weeks out of school, and you know, you, you had this continued
battle that was always going on in the home. And so the children didn't feel like they could be
who truly represent themselves as Muslims, right. So it was a continuous battle, within the
homes about the fast thing about the five daily prayers, right, about the no dating about, you
know, all those different things that you have to explain to them over about them that eating
other pork and why we don't drink alcohol and why we don't smoke and why. You know, it's just
a continual conversation that we have to have in our homes. And so for me, those are all areas
where I see myself being able to bring into our community to have those conversate those
needed conversations about these different areas. And how do we how do we create this safe
space right within our messages within our community to be able to talk about these things with
our children? So futuristic, where do I see myself that that is a that's a tough question. My goal
again is more and community I'd never thought I would see myself in politics. Right? But we I
See all the time we plan and a lot of plans, and he's the best of planners, and we have to be
prepared for the roles that he sees best for us. And I know that everything that I'm doing is, is by
the will of Allah is by the grace of Allah and that he is guiding me. And so I don't know, I don't
know, I find myself more engaged in a lot more of the community issues, that we are facing
policies and wanting to understand why, and how can I make things better?
Khadra Mohamed 35:34
Yes, yes, thank you so much for touching all that. It's a lot when it comes, especially to young in
youth to understand all the different perspectives of culture and religion, and how to balance that
it's really hard. I know, a lot of students that I work with a lot of young folks that I see struggle
with identity with their religion, and also with their culture, and some of our immigrants come
from different culture. It's a really, it's hard for them to see the differences in that. So I'm glad
you touch that, and I hope someone will be able to see and read your interview and be able to
understand
this is
this is a fairly hard question. And since you are working with the community and are fairly active,
I want to ask you the current event that's happening in our community in Minnesota. We have
witnessed some justice yesterday in the case of George Floyd and the police, who have killed
him. So I do want to ask you about that the police brutality, the injustice and all that is going on
and you choose what do you want to answer?
Sharon Al-Emin 37:25
Okay.
Okay. I mean, it yesterday was a historical moment for us. I think everyone was taken by
surprise, right, we just were all sitting in bracing ourselves for the verdict to come out. And so we
found a lot of it, and I'll just speak for myself, I found myself in a lot of anxiety. You know, just
very. I mean, the unrest was real, even even within our own community. And so for me, to have
to watch the trauma of how Mr. George Floyd's life was taken right before our own eyes. And I
can remember when it happened, you know, just thinking past that, that could be my husband,
that could be my two sons. That could be my brothers. And so when I see George, I see all the
black men that are play critical roles in my life. And so to see this, and the way it unfolded, to
see him screaming out, he can't breathe. I can't breathe, my head hurt. My body hurts.
Everything hurts to hear him scream for his mother, to hear him, you know, scream out for his
daughter, it just again, as a mother of an African American son. It hurts everything in your body.
Because again, we know that that could be our child. That could be us. That could be us. And
so yesterday's verdict brought a moment of relief. I don't say justice just yet. Because we we still
have or let me take it back. I say it's the start of justice is the start of justice for us. Because it's
one verdict does not healed all the wounds that we have had to bear for years. Right. And so I
actually felt like I could breathe a little bit yesterday when the verdict came in, actually felt like
that anxiety was knocked down just a little bit for the moment. But I know that we still deal with it
every day. In fact, while we were out with community, another black teens life was taken by the
hands of the police, Daunte Wright? Not that day, Wrigh was one. But then there was another
teenager that was just shot and killed a column in Ohio. At the same time, and so for me, black
America, the pain that we in the pain that we have suffered over the years, that one vertic is not
justice. And our attorney general Keith Ellison said it in the best way, he said, this is how
accountability looks. Right? He said, how these offices where this officer was held accountable
for his actions. And as we go on, and we hear more, and we know that justice is when our black
men and women does not have to be afraid, when they see the blue and red sirens, in the back
of their cars, right? When they are pulled over by the one who's supposed to protect us. Right?
That's when justice will be served. So we have a lot of work to do. It was a moment of relief. But
it was a start of the accountability. And it shows me how we we again, we have to occupy the
seat, the strong leadership that is needed on the political Avenue, right, and how we have to we
have to continue to mobilize our community, we have to continue to protest and we have to
continue to show up and demand and command the accountability that has to happen across
the board that is in our education system that is in our criminal justice system that is in our
housing system across the board of what needs to take place for us for black and brown people.
Khadra Mohamed
Most definitely I am going to wrap up and say thank you so much for taking this time to give me
your oral history and giving this history for Muslims in MN if there is anything else you want to
add I will love to hear it.
Sharom Al-Emin
I mean sister Khadra I think we have touch quite a bit being black in American we know it is a
full time job right and being a Muslim African American in America makes the job even more
twices hard so we again have to continue to show up we have to continue to being in a space
we have to continue to have work to have safe space and being able have broad conversations
to be able to be authentic and be able to show up and not to be afraid to repersent our selves as
African American Muslims.
Khadra Mohamed
Absulitly I can not top anything on that so I am going to stop on there and Thank you so much.
Sharon Al-Emin
Alhamdulileh Alhamdulileh your welcome
Show less
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Sat, 2/20 3:08PM
1:35:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, dude, ai, shit, girl, kate, man, thought, human, teeth, petty misdemeanor, day, walking, job,
good, story, told, big, bike, eat
SPEAKERS
Sean Johnson, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
So thank you for join... Show more
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Sat, 2/20 3:08PM
1:35:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, dude, ai, shit, girl, kate, man, thought, human, teeth, petty misdemeanor, day, walking, job,
good, story, told, big, bike, eat
SPEAKERS
Sean Johnson, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
So thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade. Could you please introduce yourself for
the record and tell us what your position is?
S
Sean Johnson 00:16
My name is Sean Johnson. Born 3/31/68. I was originally in Louisiana and I live in
Minneapolis. my position is I was homeless for the past three years. But I've been in
housing for the last year.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:35
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I'd like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and have that this interview is stored at Augsburg University, which will be
made available to the public.
S
Sean Johnson 00:48
Yes.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 1 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:49
Okay. Thank you. So can you tell me more about where you grew up, and who you call
family.
S
Sean Johnson 00:55
I grew up in a town called Ponchatoula, Louisiana. And what I call family was a family of
10. five boys, five girls. My mom had three kids, but my dad had seven later. So I grew up in
a big family. I have a daughter now of my own, one. And that's pretty much it.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:21
Can you describe your educational background?
S
Sean Johnson 01:24
Education, that's a funny one. Um, I was actually honor student in my whole life. But I quit
school and I kind of gave up on school. I'm a cancer survivor, I got cancer at 15. So I
finished high school, I went to Southern University for a semester, then got kicked out
second, second semester that quit going. And then at 19, I moved to Minnesota. And I
worked at the U of M. And they payed for school. So I got about two years, and that was
at that same time. I got about two years, there doing a work-study thing. So I probably
could graduate if I go back for about two years, going back to three semesters, but that's
pretty much it.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:11
How has homelessness and our housing insecurity affected your body, your mind your
spirit?
S
Sean Johnson 02:18
Boom! It affects all that. The thing that homelessness does that I don't think it gets enough
credit for is actually the people that survive on this gives enough credit for it because you
get attacked physically, you get attacked mentally, you get attacked morally, you know,
it'll attack financially. You know, it just takes your spirit away, man, and you don't even
notice it. Until you see yourself doing things. You look in the mirror one day, like "Who the
hell, you know, is looking back at me?" But for me, I think my blessing is the people that
raised me, you know what I mean? Because I was raised at a different time in a different
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 2 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
place. And their moral compass always stuck with me in the darkest nights. And I'm
grateful for the people that raised me, even though at the time they were doing it I was
kind of like, you know, "This is some bullshit." But as I'm on the outside of the journey, the
homeless journey, I know that's what got me through it. Because, for me, you know, I've
seen things that I know I could have done to make my journey a lot shorter. But there
would have been victim to that. And I didn't see putting my misery on someone else. As it
would have been. No one would have knew. I mean, I could have got away clean. But I
would have known. And I know that as I'm turning slightly at home on the housing side,
the race is lasted a lot longer than I would have liked it to. But I know along the way I
didn't compromise who I am so I'm proud of that. It's not easy, though, to be totally honest
with you.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:06
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. How did you first become homeless?
S
Sean Johnson 04:11
When I first became homeless, we had a house man, me and my daughter's mom. I met
her, we were 19 in St. Paul, like 1000 years ago. Anyway, she got a job with the city of
Minneapolis, we were in Saint Paul, and at the time Sharon Sayles Belton was the mayor.
And you had to live in a city to work for the city. So we bought a house in the south. We
have a kid who's like 35 or so. You know, and those were the old days, she got a little older
and we decided to sell the house. And my whole thing with that was you take all the
proceeds from the house, cause I had 4500 in the bank. And I'm gonna just take that, you
make sure Kari (daughter) is okay, and I'll be fine. And then I get to the bank and my
money was gone. And I was like, "you kidding me?" And to this day I don't know who I paid
off. You know, but I was healthy and I didn't think it would be a big deal. I thought I'd just
go to a shelter for a little bit, you know, and get back on my feet and that was three years
ago. But what I didn't realize was the criminalization of being homeless. I know that what
they'll do is give you this little misdemeanor citation for just being somewhere, or
offending this cop, it's just just stupid. And it sounds like a petty misdemeanor. If you didn't
grew up in a system that just sound like, "what's that what's the worst could happen?" But
what the evil in that is the cop that gives you that petty misdemeanor, he knows that you
can't get a job for two years. When I got that thing, I had no clue that that meant my legs
were taken from me, because that's really what happened. Because I could go get a job,
but I couldn't get a job to keep me from coming back to the shelter at night. Now at any
moment, right now I can call Linda, my daughter's mom. But the deal was you take and
makesure Kari's straight, which she did, and she still is doing. But I kept my word on that.
And I could have called her soon the money was gone. You know what I'm saying? And
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 3 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
kept on keeping on, but my word actually meant something then and still means
something now. And even as she has helped me out along the way, and she woudl help me
now if I asked her to, but I choose not to. Because the deal was you take Kari. And we're
still friends don't get me wrong? We'll always be friends, I'll always love her, we just not
together no more. So that's how it pretty much started. And another thing, the staff at
these places, oh my God. I get the human factor. Because you're dealing with people that
aren't there mentally, human tumors deal with humans, right? And you get burnt out. Once
you get burned out, you should step away. Because they start doing things to people that
at the time, it don't seem like a big deal. But the time you spent in this journey adds to it,
like throwing away your belongings, you know. In those belongings is your IDs, you can't
even get the shitty job without your ID. So now you gotta go, you see what I'm saying? And
all those little things that don't seem like much go from what I thought was gonna be,
maybe I get me 2 or 3 checks. It went from that, to three years later, I'm sitting across from
Isaac, telling him, you know, what the hell just happened, you know, saying? But as I said
here, you know, it does not put enough emphasis on once you get out to stay out. They'd
like you to stay in the system. Everything is about revolving around in the system. You
know, it's every time I had a job, I had to try and make it first shift because anytime after
that you lose your bed. So I couldn't get a job where I didn't need the bed. But in order to
get a job to just be able to eat and just to survive, you lose your bed. Because it's set up for
you to just lay round all day, and then go get to bed at 5:00. By 5:30 the bed is gone. So
now you worked all day they're gonna be out all night. Just it just a lesson in learning, I
think.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:23
Thank you for sharing that that's really in depth perspective. From your experiences from
what you've seen. What do you see as the main causes of homelessness or housing
insecurity?
S
Sean Johnson 08:40
I know that there's a ton of great people trying to do good work. However, too many times
people come to the problem with a solution. And they don't really know it. They looking at
the problem through the lens of their eyes from the lens of their experience, and what they
would do to make that better if it were them. However, is not. And from looking at it
through my lens, I run into that all the time. And then once tell them what's really going
on, they get offended. "How could this not be the right answer? Because, I went to Yale
and at Yale, they say that if this happens, that happens!" But this ain't Yale. This Hennepin
and Franklin, you know what I'm saying? This is Yale, but a different kind of Yale. You see
what I'm saying? And so your degree at Yale ain't really got nothing to do with how the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 4 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
hell you feed your guy. As a human being, as a man, as a black man. I can only talk about
it from these eyes. As a right as a black man, you're hungry. You know that theirs food
over there. You just saw people run off with the food, but your moral compass tell you that
that's not the right thing to do. But your stomach tells you, "look at here dude, who's really
going to know?" But that goes back to running the race and getting the true reward at the
end, as opposed to getting to the end, and it's really not the end because you ran the
race so shady. You see what I'm saying? And you think this was your reward when it really
was that. So now that I'm coming at the end of it, I can't unsee the things I've seen;
humans doing just inhumane things. And I'm not jumping up and down or anything like
that, but I can honestly, honestly, even if no one ever knew, look in the mirror and say I
have never ever screwed over, you see what I'm saying? And that cost me time. There were
situations where yeah, it would have been it made my day a whole lot easier. And there's
people out there who don't even konw you screwed them over. And that's another sad
thing. They shouldn't be around people that think it's okay. One example, right? You had
this woman. Now she's amongst her friends. She's talking right? Every dollar she own fell
out of her thing, and she's talking and the money's on the floor. Her friends was like sharks,
and I'm sitting back, checking it out. They were like sharks, waiting on her to leave her
money. I'm like, "Lady you dropped your money." She didn't hear me, she wants to walk off.
They was really getting ready, I'm like "Lady! You know, you dropped your money." So you
get it from from the outside. But you also get it from the inside too. You know what I'm
saying? And the people that are surviving man, they don't get enough credit for some
survivalist degrees. It's insane. It really is. You know, I forgot what the question was. But we
got around to it!
I
Isaac Tadé 11:56
The question was about what do you see as the main causes of homelessness?
S
Sean Johnson 12:00
The main cause? I would say it's personal. I think drugs, mental, alcohol. And especially
mental, because when you're not mentally rooted, like spiritually rooted or stable... and
you hear all the time that you ain't worth anything, it's easy to believe that. You know
what I'm saying? And it brought your whole day. That's what you're getting out of it. I
always ask people, I say, "Close your eyes, and picture what you think homelesses is." You
know, and that's part of the problem there. Because what you see that's one thing. There
are like a million different ways to get into being homeless. But the way they got the
system up, there's just one way to get out. How can there be a million ways in, but one way
out? So you got all these people fighting for what they thinking is their good day, but my
good day, and your good day is two different good days. Like, your apartment that
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 5 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
making you just tickled pink and mine that made me tickled pink is two different things.
You see what I'm saying? But they got everybody in there fighting for the same thing. And
so it's like crabs in a barrel, kind of. In Minnesota, I will say that there's tons of good
people, and there are opportunities and avenues to get out. But, but I think to be totally
honest with you, just humans doing inhumane things. But the biggest ones is drugs,
alcohol and mental, you know, people that should that deserve better representation.
Let's put it like. And then, just people being honest about what their weaknesses are. You
know, probably shouldn't be drinking that if you're gonna drink that one, and we're going
to find you. You know what I'm saying? But those are the big three.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:57
It sounds like there are not systems in place to help people deal with the problems that
they have. And so they turned to drugs, alcohol, and other means, right? Which, in turn,
makes things worse, and will probably, in some cases, give them some sort of mental
illness.
S
Sean Johnson 14:18
Yes! There's a guy. I'm glad you said that. There's a guy, to get housing. Now, this is insane.
To get to the top of the housing list, he had to go to his "method-dome" thing. Which is
the quickest way to get him in the housing. He wasn't even on drugs, but after going
through the method-done thing, now he's on heroin. He's had to heroin now. But he had to
do that, that's the only way he can get on the list for housing. So now they really got him,
you know what I mean? It's like, that's insane. But at the time, the best way to quickly get
to help was go to the methadome thing. And for somebody that never even, smoked
weed. But if you see him right now, he's strung out on fucking heroin. And now that was
because he was trying to get into the housing quick. You know what I'm saying? So that's
the system. I mean, and of course, he lost the house. And not only lost the house he got an
open mark on his back now, that wasn't there at the beginning of the thing. And with the
whole drug, it's so much more easy, because that's right here, right here. And you got to
get through that, to get to where you really should be going. It takes a little bit. It really
does. It takes a little bit to get through, to stay focused. It really does. And it is sad to see,
see the light go out of people's eyes. You know, that's a tough one for me. I can't speak for
everybody, some people see it and be like, "Oh, this opportunity for me." You know what I
mean? Right now, that's insane to me, is just like with the tags. But you know, you see to
that.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:01
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 6 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
What stories or what experiences from your time being homeless have most changed your
perspective?
S
Sean Johnson 16:10
The girl at the train, you know, and I never get into the domestic. That's just one thing you
don't do. You learn that early. Like, it's the craziest shit you could do is get get in the
middle of a domestic, right? But it was...
I
Isaac Tadé 16:21
Could you tell that story?
S
Sean Johnson 16:22
Yeah I'm finna do it now. I never do that, but it was something about this dude, that was so
despicable. And I chose that word because I don't want no bleeps. But that's just it, I was
like, I said, "Why are you with this dude, right?" Because I thought I knew! She's gonna need
me to come here, I'm gonna slap him a little and throw him off the train. And then she'd
go, you know? That's me thinking I know what's best for her. But I didn't have enough to
ask her. And what she said was, "It's better to be raped by one dude as opposed to 12."
And then I looked there, she was a tiny little thing. I mean, dude, she couldn't have been
you know? She's Kate's size. But Kate's bigger in height. But after that day, I never ever
assumed anything. You know, cause I never saw that one coming in. That's her best
choice. And that's not a choice, this is America, man. And I'm not talking about something
that happened in the Kentucky Appalachians or you know what I'm saying? This was on
the train come from St. Paul. to Minneapolis. You know, that's the best choice, in America.
I mean, come on, man. What I learned from that was not to assume I know anything. It
was so humbling dude, cause I got sisters, I got a daughter, Mom. You're looking at this
girl. And it's like, wow, you know, that's her best? Talk about best day. Picture that is your
best day just to get raped once, as opposed to 12? How about not at all? You know, how
about just chilling it? But you see it, that whole thing about dreaming. I want to make sure
this get in there. Because I heard the brother, the South African brother, on the Daily Show.
He said this. I want to give him his credit. Because when he said it, I was like, "Dink!". It was
about dreams because somebody said, I forgot who he was talking to. And he said,
"People should you know, live and try to get to their dreams." And he said, "Say well, you
know, I used to think that until I realized, let's just say that all I know is this eight blocks. I
don't know to dream outside that eight blocks. I don't even know if it's possible." So the
thing is to get people to dream beyond their dreams. Because if all I know is this, I just
know to dream about that. And in my life growing up in Louisiana, that's why I love my
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 7 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
parents, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts, everybody who has something to do
with making me who I am today, the dude that's sitting across from Isaac. I'm so happy for
that because it gave me enough to understand that and I am somebody, fuck what they
say, I'm sorry about that. I deserve to live a bountiful life. And that's what tipped me off
about the thing that just happened. There's a $58,000 job. Right? And now, he didn't tell
us about that one until it was over. But now there's a $10 job. "I really want y'all to have
that." Why can't you really want me to be an American? To have something more. Yeah,
like would you want it? Cause come on, man.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:55
And who was it that offered this job?
S
Sean Johnson 19:57
The dude over there, I'm gonna say Joe. He came to speak at the Street Voices meeting.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:07
Okay.
S
Sean Johnson 20:07
He worked for the system now, you might as well say. And what I was telling him was, you
know, why are we talking about this job if it's done? You know, I already have a 10 dollar
job so that's gonna keep me where I'm at. I'm just treading tires, you know? But um, but
there are good people out there, man. I ramble a lot too, so. Next!
I
Isaac Tadé 20:35
Next! No, you bring in a lot of really good perspective. You talked about the South African,
that's Trevor Noah, right?
S
Sean Johnson 20:40
Yes! The dream thing, that's huge. Yes. But one more thing. Cause for me, Sean Johnson,
Kari's dad, that's another thing she's changed, she saved my life. Cause it's easier for me
to let Pookie think he's a man in this tiny situation that just went down at the, let's just say,
over there or at the park or at the shelter or anywhere. I'm gonna let him be big now.
Because if I deal with him, I can't be there to protect my daughter. You see what I'm
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 8 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
saying? So you go head on and say what you think. Anything short of getting in the no fly
zone, you okay with me. You're not okay, but you see what I'm saying? Yeah, you have to
let shit slide, because if I get on this here dude? I look at him as consequences. And I had
this little guy, buddy, I kid you not, he thought he was a Rottweiler. So every day, that's my
go to. When somebody got me in a place that I know that if I deal with this, I'm gonna
have consequences. The first thing I heard is buddy. I look at him and I just see buddy.
That makes it easier for me to stay focus on my big picture, which is protecting my baby
girl. You know what I'm saying? I ain't got to be doing no time just because he needs to
feel big about saying whatever he needs to say about me, that ain't true anyway. And
another thing, once you've been shot at a few times, words lose. Like, put the gun down.
You can say what you want. Why we gotta leave markers all the God damn time? You
know, call me what you want, but put the gun down. But anyway, yeah I wanted to get
that in there.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:35
Yeah, it sounds like something one of my professors told me one time he said that, you
know, there's a million things in the world that could rub you the wrong way. You can
choose the ones that actually get you.
S
Sean Johnson 22:49
Yes. Choices. I've been reading, and not only reading, but not in the journey, I want to be
able to enjoy my time. Physically. That's the whole damn thing, man. And so I'm doing this.
The brain I'm up there now, like I was just telling you about the Tenzy guy . And he got me
reading books and like I said, eating things. But the thing about that though, is I'm gonna
tell my niece and nephew. You see what I'm saying? Cause no one told me. Now I'm not
putting that against my parents. They did the best they could where they were at. You
know what I'm saying? But now that I know better, they gonna know about this. You know
what I'm saying, there are things that I found out like yesterday. What's the date?
Thursday? Like Tuesday, I wish I had known years ago. You know what I'm saying? But I
can't, "Oh, woe is me about those changes." I got to think about today and moving
forward and making it better for the ones that I know will be benefiting from that. In that
whole family thing you mentioned earlier. I can remember I hated White people, when I
met my daughter's mom. I opened up the door, I see these two white girls. I don't even like
white people I said I'm going to shut the door, she stuck her foot out there and she didn't
know she had me right there. I'm like this bitch is something! But that's how we met. And I
meant that. But as I sit here today my family, as you mentioned, is these people at the at
the shelter. Is the girl, the White girl, that was outside of target eating soup with her hands
and shit. The police over here cause they on every corner now. You know, they looking at
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 9 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
the girl they don't do anything and then you know you got her compadres, they looking at
her as a victim cause she's still kind look okay. She was probably kind of hot back in the
day, if you know what I'm saying. So she kind of look okay, but the girl obviously got a
problem. Noone's helping her, you know, and it's like, come on man, this girl need help. But
I saw her. And I do a bike taxi. I'm going to tell one story and then we're going to move on.
I do the bike taxi, right? This the same girl. On the bike taxi, she had been trying to
approach me and I can tell. I didn't want to approach her because the way the dudes do
her, you know, she deserves better. So she finally came up to me, right? And so she just
knew she was gonna have to perform some kind of way. She was going to use her body.
I'm trying to tell her I just want to give her a ride. And she trying to figure out how she
gonna pay but it. You ain't got to pay for that! I take her for a little ride, she's having fun,
dah dah dah, and I bring her back right? And now she really thinks she got to pay. So now
she tried to set up how she could pay me later, right? So what I did was, I gave her $5 right
? Now she's all fucked up, cause not only is she not paying, I just gave her $5 right? And I
said just go get yourself something. I say that to say this, I hadn't seen her for quite some
time and the whole pandemic, and you hear all this crazy shit. And I'm wondering if she's
okay. And I was walking, it's been about a month now. I was walking down on Nicolette
and I see her. Now she got her hair all over her face, she's you know, she's not looking
great. She's doing. And I'm looking at her and walking slow because I want to make eye
contact, and I'm happy I see her! But I don't know where she's at, or I can't approach it. I
don't know how that's gonna go.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:35
Where her mental space is at.
S
Sean Johnson 26:37
Exactly. I'm respecting her. But I want her to know, I'm hoping she looks up, and she looks
through the glass. And she sees me. And I smiled at her, you know, not nothing, "Hey, how
you doing?" kind of thing. And she smiled. You know what I'm saying it's the little shit. I
don't know this girl. You know what I mean? But but she's human. She's somebody's
daughter. You know, I don't know her story. But I know she deserves whatever her good
day is, she deserves. And it seems like something like that happens all the time. I just
jokingly say that I wish I didn't have a conscious. Because you know, I could go ahead and
bust a couple heads, you know? Cause I'm straight!
I
Isaac Tadé 27:25
Cause sometimes you feel as though you need to do whatever you need to survive.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 10 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 27:30
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:30
But your conscience tells you that there might be consequences or that, you know, you will
be hurting other people if you do those things.
S
Sean Johnson 27:40
Yes.Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:40
So then you're not selfish.
S
Sean Johnson 27:42
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:43
Right.
S
Sean Johnson 27:43
And the thing is though, you see it being done by cowards. But anyway, you don't want to
judge but you gotta decifer because, you didn't do it if you're in crime, it's gonna happen
to you. So I'm not judging you. But I can't be no idiot. You are who you are dude, I gotta
respect that. But who you proclaim to be I gotta respect where you're at. Anyway, you
know that was one of those stories, man. And I feel good about that, though, you know,
and then she went on with the day, it went to get better. You know, I'm trying to find a
way to help the girl, because there's a ton of them out there. The thing that gets me the
most with the homeless thing is the people that can't defend themselves. They don't even
know they're getting screwed over.
I
Isaac Tadé 28:28
Women and children?
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 11 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 28:30
Handicap, any mental or physical. Yeah. You know, and the cowards that take advantage
of them? Oh my God, they should separate them, dude. She shouldn't be by him. Yeah, she
shouldn't be by her. You know what I'm saying, it's insane. But then they say, "Well, we're
just putting them in a place." Well, they're not out in the cold, but she probably better out
in the cold than with the shit that's going on in there. It's one thing to take the soul away.
That goes back to seeing that light go out of their eyes. That's a horrible thing, dude. And,
yeah, so it's a ton of that. And it's not a hard fix. Just separate them and put somebody in
there to, you know? But I've been reading a lot, and them Ted Talks. I've been trying to, I
want the whole damn thing. And but not only do I want it for me, I want it for my family,
that's that girl. It's even the dude that was getting the damn tags. You know, he in there
too. That's that crazy ass uncle that at the end of the barbecue, everybody want to kick
you his ass. You know what I'm saying? But he's still...
I
Isaac Tadé 29:43
He's somebody's uncle.
S
Sean Johnson 29:44
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And see people don't get that. That just rolled off of you. But that
ain't something you get at school. You know what I'm saying? So when you come at me
with, "You gotta have a bachelors to..." That whole shit that got me out of a job, they
paying somebody to be me. But you gonna bribe me with ten dollars?
I
Isaac Tadé 30:08
Right.
S
Sean Johnson 30:09
And they tell me to trust you. But anyway. And that dentist thing. Dude! That's huge.
People ain't got no teeth.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:22
That was gonna be one of my next questions, so that's a smooth transition. I was gonna
ask you! People ain't got no teeth, man. So what, has been your experience? What is, you
know, I'm trying to be a dentist. What are some of the things that you've seen, some of the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 12 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
problems that can be addressed by dentists on the streets. What has been your
experience with homelessness and like dental health?
S
Sean Johnson 31:04
See the thing with like dental health, like all of the things. See dental health shouldn't be
like, an extra special thing. Having teeth, you know, being able to see, the basic things
shouldn't be like extra curricular shit, you know what I mean? And so people don't have
time to think about that. Let's just say for me as an example. I gotta get to a dentist. I got
three problems in my mouth that I know I got, I need to get to a dentist, right? Definitely,
absolutely no teeth. But if your struggle is to get something to eat, I can't work if it's a
green leafy. I just got to get something in my stomach. So I ain't got time to worry about it,
this tooth.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:51
There's a hierarchy of needs.
S
Sean Johnson 31:52
Yes! Priorities. Or like what I'm trying to say is, when you're struggling like that, you have
to remember everybody's basement and cheiling is different. You know what I'm saying?
So, the teeth thing. For me, that's huge. I can remember when I was young, and I would get
into fights. That's my first thought I gotta get to him before he knock one of my teeth out!
But people don't even have time to think about that. Because if you're getting raped, 12
times... I had a girl. Now dude, I'm not bragging, I'm just telling her story. I met her. This is
how she introduced herself to me, right? She didn't tell her name. She says, "I don't have
molars, and I don't have a gag reflex."
I
Isaac Tadé 32:56
I know where you're going with this. What was her story?
S
Sean Johnson 32:57
Like what do you say to that? But then, and I'm like, what's your name? But her story. Oh,
my God. Her story was, she was gang raped. When she was like 13 in one of the cities,
North. Not in the city, but in one of them towns, but whatever. And no one believed her.
And that was her deal. You know, and then so she was all fucked up. No one believed her
even, her family. So she ended up coming down here. She got hooked up with Mexico
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 13 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
dude, she ended living five year down in Guatemala, or somewhere down in Mexico.
When I met her I thought she was a Mexican. But she's actually native.
I
Isaac Tadé 33:57
Okay.
S
Sean Johnson 33:58
She was actually native, right? Cause I met her with a crazy dude. No, it was just one of
those nights with this insane dude, remind me to tell you about him. So he goes to this
place, right? Young, white girl. Now she's got the bachelor's degree from the University of
Minnesota, big old thing on the wall, but she's smoking and so dude goes in there right?
I
Isaac Tadé 34:19
Smoking what?
S
Sean Johnson 34:21
I want to say meth. But everything's in there. Math, crack, if you name it is in there. Right?
And so dude goes in there. As I'm walking in, the girl, this is the first time we ever saw
eachother. She says some Spanish. She's knows her dude is a fucking animal. When I say
animal. Yeah, he's an animal.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:38
The guy that she was with.
S
Sean Johnson 34:40
No, the guy that I was with.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:41
Oh
S
Sean Johnson 34:41
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 14 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
That guy I came in with. They take me to his friend's house. They don't want him there.
Until now that they hooked, not they good. But anyway. So the next time I saw her that's
when she did that, like the gag reflex, thing and I'm thinking, "I'm okay."
I
Isaac Tadé 35:00
I'm straight!
S
Sean Johnson 35:03
I'm good, so now we're talking right? And noone had ever done that. Yet, but that's when I
heard the story. That just was horrible man. And she had a son, I want to say, from it. That
was another thing. Yes! Her son was from it, so everytime she's looking at him...That is a
horrible story, though. That's why you guys can't judge people, man. And she was smart
too. Once she talked to you gotta, once you broke through and talked she was smarter
than shit, you know. But her story was just crazy. And she had a chip in her. She was being
sold. Yes. She was being sold. They knew where she was at 24 seven. That's not no
conspiracy, she showed the shit to me, right up under her skin. So she talking about
trafficking. Oh, yeah. She was that, you know. It was just horrible. I still didn't get her name,
you know? But yes, that was bad. But the dude he raped this girl. This woman. Right? His
story is, he went to the penitentiary. And he was the one that was planting her here. He
didn't actually didn't have a good time in penitentiary. You know what I'm saying? Yeah,
and it fucked his head up. So out here, he just burned up, because the things he do to
women is just... And then once I realized who he, you know, who he kept reminding me of?
Do you remember Derrick Sharper? The Green Bay Packers guy?
I
Isaac Tadé 37:09
Yeah.
S
Sean Johnson 37:10
Yeah, he was kind of like that. You'd never think that Derrick Sharper was running around
raping and all that. You know, he just didn't fit the profile. But once you got to know
him...No way, there's nothing this dude won't do. But it was because of what had
happened to him in a penitentiary. And he actually got charged with a rape. And I just
saw him, this past summer. He had been back to the penitentiary. So he kind of got his.
But yeah, I don't know what happened. The last time I saw her, she was sitting up on Park
right off of Park and about 24. But yeah, there is just so many stories like that. And he's just
sad...But it's just that kind of severity. Like I say the women, the kids, the mentally and
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 15 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
physically. And it's got this one dude. I don't know his deal. But he's in a wheelchair, he's
probably up there right now on Hennepin. He sits in his chair all the time, and he gets
money from somewhere. Whatever, his deal is, a check will come. And his friends man,
they just feed this dude crack. But he can't move, they hold it. He can't even, nothing's
working. You know? And I'm like, dude, those aren't your friend. He had to dude laying in
the snow, in his vomit. And I'm like, I tried to give him a glove, I don't know, these guys, it's
some Somali dudes. And they laugh and I'm like, dude, these are not your friends. Cause I
don't even know you. And you're laying in vomit. Yeah, ain't got no shoes on. Got no
gloves on. I gave him the gloves. But they like, "Just let him stay there", I'm like come on,
man. You just can't. So I gave him the glove. And I told you these are not your friends. I
don't give a fuck what they said. It was cold as shit.
I
Isaac Tadé 39:22
I guess to return back to the question. What advice would you give me as a future dentist,
right? That I can best serve people who have experienced homelessness. What advice
would you give to me?
S
Sean Johnson 39:40
To you? You know, first of all understand that it's a need. Oh my god, dude, it's insane. And
I'm talking about, I think we had to come up with a way to to learn. To a lot of people like I
said, that ain't even a thought. Dude you aint about 20 some years old, but you got the
meth thing. That'll mess the teeth up. And then you just got the average Joe, you know,
they they take care of their teeth. And I couldn't go to dentist till I was 21, but I brush my
teeth. You know what I'm saying? But I actually went to a dentist at 21 years old. I did a
good enough jobs and I know that I should be going to a dentist. But it's not on their list.
It's just not, because when this dude got mad, he got mad at me. We ordered a sandwich
together and I ate mine. He got mad, I'm like dude, I got teeth. You don't have no teeth,
that's why it's taking you longer! But you know, the thing is, figure out a way to let them
know they deserve to have teeth. See that's the thing. They just so happy, that's not a
luxury. It's okay to have teeth! It's okay to want to smile. No, it's okay. The natural things
that teeth do, they don't think about them, like a nice smile. You can actually eat your
food!
I
Isaac Tadé 41:14
Or even speak!
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 16 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 41:15
Yeah, yes. Without spitting on you. But it's those little things. I mean, you have to come at
them in a way to where they don't feel less than. Cause they get enough of that.You know
what I'm saying?
I
Isaac Tadé 41:27
Don't come at people in a way. That's like condescending.
S
Sean Johnson 41:31
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:32
Or, to put myself in a position above you.
S
Sean Johnson 41:35
Yes. And see that happens. And then they shut down.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:39
Yeah
S
Sean Johnson 41:39
That's what happens.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:40
And then they won't ever see a dentist again.
S
Sean Johnson 41:42
No, because they looking for a reason to not see you. They come into it not wanting to
like you. Then once you give them that one, well you just, you just validated what I know to
be true, even though I have no research on it at all. And it's the best thing that could have
happened to me. And people don't realize how big certain little things are. And the timing
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 17 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
of it. You can say the smallest thing to the wrong person at the wrong time...and that's
(Hurricane) Katrina. People don't realize that. And I've seen that. Yeah. People don't realize
the power words. For me that's just like with when I first met Kate. I didn't trust Kate. And
she'll tell you that. She just straight up. It took her like...
I
Isaac Tadé 42:36
A couple years, right?
S
Sean Johnson 42:37
She'll say that's right. But it was some time because by the time I met Kate, I had been in it
for like two years. And I just got tired of people. Because they had a badge on. And then
went to school, doing whatever they do for shits and giggles, and to feel good about
themselves. This whole, shit, right? But they treat me like shit. And, "you should just be
happy that they're there. I'm gonna treat you like shit. But you ain't shit anyway. So you
should be happy that I ain't treat you like worse shit." You see what I'm saying? So I assume
that that's where they're coming from.
I
Isaac Tadé 43:11
From your prior experience.
S
Sean Johnson 43:12
Yes, but I don't stay there. I don't treat them that way. But what I do is I give them a
chance to prove that they're not that. I don't just go into it to think just cause you got that
little thing on, that you're a good person. Now once you prove you a good person, we
could you know, because I've been out I've been I didn't get been woken up. Alvarez say,
Steven. Do cussing me out. It's during the morning. He cussing me out calling me ali ne
and I asked him I'm like, Man, you know, why you cussing me? Yeah. Did you look beyond
what you go do about it? Dude, it's minus 20 degrees outside. You know what's really
going on here, man. But I'm thinking I ain't saying anything. Because, you know, I know
what's going on. But But can I go to sleep now? Oh, you ain't gonna do what you're gonna
do. You know, be outside. I could go to sleep or be ready to just be inside or outside. You
know? So there's no real choice here to go ahead and finish call me what you don't call
me. Tomorrow. Makai passenger shall do nothing. But I'm gonna call you Pachamama do
my part because guess what you should do and do wake up in the morning trying to get
you kicked out. And he's getting paid to be there. But, but it's just it's like a like I say that's
why they should get more credit for survivalists day because you get hit from our Lord.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 18 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
And then you hit yourself. You know what I'm saying? You hit the gym knocked out
yourself and see, that's another thing. And the biggest thing man is is getting people to
actually look in the mirror. The old Michael Jackson thing, the dude in the mirror,
I
Isaac Tadé 44:48
the man in the mirror
S
Sean Johnson 44:48
you know, too many people don't want to look at him, that's why you're up in my mirror.
You see what I'm saying? You know, if you will be in yoga, you'd be so busy, you won't even
notice. You know what I'm saying? I got so much hate in this mirror, that I ain't got time for
that. You know, and, and there are people waiting on me to get this shit, right.
I
Isaac Tadé 45:19
Your people who depend on you?
S
Sean Johnson 45:21
Yes. And that's another thing they they don't see homeless people thinking or having any
value. Like, another story, over at Higher Ground in St. Paul. I'm working and making like
150 to 200 a day. So I'm getting about this. I come to these checks and I'm good. And so
they saw me stacking the locker, dude I'm getting ready to make a move. I got it all. And
something went down. And they fixing kick me out, I say cool. I got one question. What
about my stuff in my locker? Cause I had to go to work that day. It's 5:30 in the morning,
right? I have no problem not coming back here. But do I need to take my stuff to work
with me? Or is it gonna be okay? They say I got 36 hours, right? So I leave. And then I come
over here to St. Paul and Kate, another Kate, hooks me up at St. Stephen's right. So I call
them from the library downtown. So it's like 5:30 that same day. "Well, this is Seann
coming to get my stuff." They put me on hold. I knew something was wrong right there.
They stolen all of it. They told me they threw it away. I'm like, "Well what garbage can did
you throw it in?" Because I knew the garbage didn't run that day. I knew that garbage
didn't run. So I can just go get it. They say, "Oh, no, you can't do that." "What do you mean
I can't do it. You threw it out. It was in the garbage. I go get mine." But they stole my stuff
and in stealing my stuff...See they were stealing the jeans, the clipper all that stuff, but
they threw away my pictures. The picture of my dad when he was still healthy, vibrant.
Yeah. And me I was 23 in that picture, in the backyard that I grew up in. That picture told
like 100 years of my childhood, and see that was a legacy pitcture for Kari. Because by the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 19 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
time Kari came around, my dad had dementia. I wished she could see him... You know, you
know what I mean?
I
Isaac Tadé 47:17
In that family barbecue picture.
S
Sean Johnson 47:19
Yes. Yeah. But you know, they have all those, fryers now?
I
Isaac Tadé 47:25
Air fryers?
S
Sean Johnson 47:26
Yes. My dad had a beer keg. Cut off, with a torch under it.
I
Isaac Tadé 47:35
He made his own.
S
Sean Johnson 47:36
With a clothes hanger, yes! That was in that picture. You know what I'm saying? And they
just threw my shit away, man. I had a passport in there to travel. And I had two empty
pages. And I just wanted so much to fill that damn thing. They do that in the clothes and
all that stuff. That I mean, I'm saying I was pissed about that. But it wasn't but it could be
replaced. That pictures gone.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:02
those pictures can't be replaced.
S
Sean Johnson 48:04
You know, what I'm saying? And then she is telling me this, Mr. Johnson we can't do
anything. You know? And then you flip it because I already know what was in there, you
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 20 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
know what I'm saying? But they just feel like you just don't have anything of value and
you're not a value. And whatever happens happens, you know, shake it off and keep you
I
Isaac Tadé 48:27
so going. Yeah, going in to a healthcare profession. Being mindful of First of all, what
words I use, how I approach people to not be condescending, and being respectful of their
things, their appearances, their journey.
S
Sean Johnson 48:47
Yes, just because you see, I see Isaac at whatever age you are right now. I don't know what
it took for you to get there. You know what, I don't know what happened to you last week
or you know what I'm saying? Or whatever you use that you don't say it or you know it
could have been great day it could have been some facility I don't know. But for me to
look at you now and assume that's the worst thing that happens with a Canadian
assuming you don't mean oh he gotta be this or he must be that or you know and all this
Oh shit. I don't have people like leave money out for me to take it so the guy you know
don't come home man. I mean it's just but the thing is if it be genuine with people cause
they see that fake shit you know they really get a greater Miss kudos or much less than a
mile away. But just be be open to know that they're human and in being human well and
invaluable man no big me's and little you and you know none of that. Just realize that
they're human. And there's a story ready when you really good at it. Can you get to the
story? You see what I'm saying? Cuz cuz if you if you shut him up at a beat, you never
really know what you did. You can sit there talk to him for an hour and not even know who
you talk. too, once you get beyond the way they are feeling they can talk to you talk for
five minutes. You know everything. You see what I'm saying? There's a big difference if you
want them to feel at ease and it just when they could just relax and not be on gold trust
you. Yes. Because if you don't God, I'll bet you, you know, you let you in here because you
don't do enough people hitting me. So if I can force a missile to keep you at arm's length
until I know you ain't gonna stab me in the back. And once you get back then do what you
want to do. You know? And so that's what she talked about. It might have seemed like, I
didn't need to make sure you have like acting crazy. We all do say you know me, but but it
will make them get to the store. To once you get to the story. That's the family. That's why
I say that's what my family brothers St. pontotoc to do. But my family I think girl, I mean,
she like a third cousin our you know what I mean? She only my family? Yeah, you know
what I'm saying? And even the uncle that we know, we got to get rid of. We gotta cut him
out for before Pyro round to go but he's still but you know, he's still family. And that's
tough sometimes. No, it really is when you hungry. He just told us your way. And you know
you better Yeah, you know, or you could take it from him. You know, but but you got to be
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 21 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
patient and stay within your roots. And hopefully you got good to see you don't blow you
over. You know what, it's a really incredible I woke and I had dude standing on me with a
knife. Yes. And the same dude. It was it was like it was so damn cold. I had a park around
and freezing my ass he dropped he up on the ramp by the Radisson in the Marriott right
there. Don't turn. Yes. And that bitch right there. I'm gonna do you want to get on this bus.
I got it. bus token we just get on the bus and warm up. Get into police pull up. This guy. We
got him. So I just take our wallet. Then I turn around, they sent him back on the bitch and
left him. Now that same dude, he's so drunk. I remember that. That same dude, like pretty
much later, I wake up he is over me with a knife. And I'm looking at grabbing right in a
pinup, you know, so I gotta grab him in the knife. And I pick him up to the front. The first
thing he asked me, What did I do? I was asleep. What about? What about I will sleep? in it.
There are good staff too, though. Don't get me wrong. And from my side of it. You I always
have whatever they do. I have to be true to me because I need this to work. You know, you
go home with your job. And you Oh, I had a bad day at work. But your bad day won't be
that good. Send me back six months, I need this to work not have been the guy. Let's just
say you got a you got a service that I really need to get to my next step right? to do
before me just cuss you out and spit on you? Know, I mix right? I still need you to be you
know what I'm saying? And I understand that's tough. You know, so I can't I can't expect
you to not have a little human in you right now. So I got to come in and get your laugh.
You know, man, can I still need what I need? But see people that ain't got their skill set. I
mean, I bet she just knew she just got spit on. You know what I mean? You gotta respect
the fact that she's human, or he or whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I get that,
because it can be challenging. Trust me, I get that. However, I need my knees. Oh, are you
okay? Do you know what I'm saying? But not everybody got this skill set. So they're going
to get knotted up. They didn't get what they need. And they're going to go go back. Now
they said back another six seven months is getting hit all kinds of ways. And if you ain't
got rules, he's gonna blow you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, somebody's standing in the gap. See
that's the thing. And what another thing that really pisses me off the people that's
supposed to be standing in the gap, just getting paid to stand in the gap. We're just there.
And they know what to say. And it's like, come on, man. Really? And that's another thing
that's that's just horrible when you said like the guy but he's a girl some shoes, right? She's,
she's, she's and she's while I'm doing the bike thing. I had a good friend Friend. I make
money. So so I'd be alone. Cuz my family, you know, and I see this girl. I see. I see you guys
we're about to laugh. And so I get her. As a matter of fact, I'm back. I'm taking it and
trying to get some shoes, right. And then I'm gonna let her in. And I know she's getting a
shoe. That's why she ain't got no damn shoes on, but had been so long. They knew me and
told them you know, so I went on at bought shoes. I was gonna spend 25 and she found
stuff for 20 And I guess he tried to give me the five bucks. And I'll just keep that, you know,
and, you know, I don't know that you're gonna do it, but you know, just just consider that,
you know, some you can do, let's stuff like that. I don't have any god damn money, but I
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 22 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
had enough to where, you know, I could be a blessing to her. You know, Sam because in
people with the money you're looking at it, you know, it's like come on man but
I
Isaac Tadé 55:24
it just humanizing experiences
S
Sean Johnson 55:27
all the time. Cuz they're human man. What gets me is the women that think that the lights
go you know and and they just think that their take took their their self worth knowing like
the girl that she didn't know she has to do this one time. I hate somebody gotta get paid
all kinds of shit on the bike right? And he's got this girl and I'm gonna give it to give it to
her. I forgot what it was, but I couldn't use it right? And I'm gonna give it to you better as I
turn like that, dude, I'm not exaggerating at all. As I turned to get you're gonna find it
right. And as I turn around, she's naked. And this is the sidewalk. She like two feet off the
sidewalk. Now, what are you doing? I don't know. You don't have to do anything. But first
of all, how did how did you get here?
I
Isaac Tadé 56:24
That's what I'm thinking.
S
Sean Johnson 56:27
But she just thought that no one could be nice to her. Without taking her whole goddamn
soul. In that sad man. Yes. Yeah. But I gave it to her.
I
Isaac Tadé 56:41
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, here's a big one. And of course, if you feel you
know, uncomfortable with any questions or whatever, go for it. Go for it. Um, I was just
gonna ask, what role does race and racism play in homelessness?
S
Sean Johnson 56:59
For me, as a black man, I think it's it's America. You know, so it's got to be worse. And the
darker you are, you know, say However, what I've noticed is, is less race than it is
economic. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, we don't get a little bit worse. But I still think
that the the women and the handicap, and the kids get the worst of everything. Cuz for
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 23 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
me, even though I'm black, and you may not like me. Yes, sir. She's just not gonna do to
me. You know, I'm, that's not gonna happen. But there are people out there that they
came like to the girl getting ready to attend. They can't say no.
I
Isaac Tadé 57:48
You know what I mean? So and you don't think you'd be in that position? Because your
male?
S
Sean Johnson 57:52
Your hell yeah, I know. I'm not. I'm gonna go to the gym when I leave here. You don't say
they pick it. That's what a fucking coward. They pick and choose who they gonna be King
Kong around, you know, King Kong King Kong all the time. You know what I'm saying? So
why can't you be King Kong now? But you can be King Kong with her. I would love what
you don't say. Because King Kong I mean, romance. But you know, he gonna do what he
do
I
Isaac Tadé 58:23
Rght.
S
Sean Johnson 58:23
He didn't do it when when it's when it's beneficial. He can do it all the goddamn time. So
that's that's another thing, man is this. Is this bad, man? I don't know. But but the race
thing is America. So so but but with this, you know, is is more of a handicap and the
women and the kids. That's just me though.
I
Isaac Tadé 58:47
That's what you see.
S
Sean Johnson 58:47
Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. get worse. Okay. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 58:52
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 24 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Thank you. Um, how would you describe your spirituality?
S
Sean Johnson 58:56
saving me. You really is me because that's what I see. I know. I'm going to live an
abundant life. But in that, that service. You know what I'm saying? And that's because the
moment I was a mama was right here, not what she's writing right now. Boy, but the thing
is, though, like when I was young, she just dragged me to church. My dad didn't go if dad
didn't go, why did I have to go, that's a woman thing, you know, but I went to church,
kicking and screaming. But what happened is, when I was in there, he got into me. You
know what I'm saying? And I know that when I had that cancer piece, like my
grandmother when she was old, and she just beat up praying all the time, and I'm like, you
know, go home and pray. And so, you know, like I said, I go to church twice, twice on
Sundays. You know, because I know that but the grace of God, I am alive. You know what
I'm saying? Again, I've been times where I probably shouldn't have made it out of some of
the places. You know what I'm saying? And I, I believe in prayer. You know what I say? cuz
I've seen fruit from it. You know what I'm saying? So that's what keeps me not doing taking
the shirt, it keeps you grounded, because I understand how to race is really one. And I
understand that. And so when I see good people, I sponge off because even though I joke
about how my friend is super hot, which she is, she's so smart. But you know what I'm
saying because of her. You know, I eat different. I take care of my whole advocate when I
told her I said, Go I'm an illusion. You know, you're the real thing. I need to get the real
thing cuz cuz delusion go play out a little bit here. But for me, I want the real thing. And
that's what I see in you is man, she got eaten and you know, I'm sorry that right now cuz I
met her yesterday. But But you know, and, and Kates are good. But I'm around good
people like that. And they did. They went Thursday, Tuesday, I went over to turn over.
Northeast, right? I'm going for 10 minutes. I got to do. But when I get around good, people
just go to chopping it up. It is two hours later. But you know what I'm saying? Right? But
because of the pandemic, and when you round when I'm around good people, the time
just, you know, me. And I told her that I was coming in for 10 minutes, you know, and here
it is, you know, two hours later putting it on, I gotta go. You know, but it's just, I just like
being around people, especially when you just happen to see people getting through.
Especially when you hear all this deaf and this and that. Yeah, you just happen to see
people still around man and his family to me. You know, it really is. I don't say that. You
know, casually or any of that cuz that girl, man, that ain't gonna say that was the only
smile she had that day. But no, she got that one smile that day. You know what I mean?
And she deserve a smile, man. Come on, do this. Come on. But little things like that, you
know, and I cry too damn much, man. Picture me check this out. So me, right. And I'm at
the library and I'm looking at them and, you know, they look at me, you know, but I cry
that it has to do with my spirituality, my my grandmother and my, yes. You know, they see
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 25 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
me crying they like but I'm okay with that. Because I understand. In the long run, we
should cry. I mean, if you make you feel like crap, you know, you got to express yourself.
But but but for me talking about the brain and the heart and the body stress.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:02:58
All that?
S
Sean Johnson 1:02:58
Yeah. As he was was I realized I won't be able to enjoy my life, but I don't have one. I got it.
I got all that shit in there, dude in the mirror. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. If you've been
honest with him, you gotta let things go. And I had a cousin. Dude, he was in here for 10
years. I want to hurt is really, really, really bad. Because what he did is tell me just pray for
him every day. So let me pray for him. Everything's pretty good things for him every day.
Even if you don't mean it, do it every day. Then over time, it'll it'll become it'll become
natural. Yeah. And then one day, I was walking with a friend of mine, a family member of
mine. And he drove by. And I went over and we faked like we go first cousin flip on the
same plane again. Anyway, we did the whole Hey, how you doing a senior while Day bla
bla bla. And then he left and I left. And it wasn't until me and Cliff, I called me Hearld,
walked up another two blocks that I realized the whole lot. We was talking knocking him
out of dragging him out of the car never crossed my mind. You know what I mean? So it
works, you know? And so, we it took 10 years to get there. Okay, dude, I will lose sleep. I
will Oh, you know, you know, but she'd said that. And so, I tried. I understand. Philosophy
guy over St. Thomas says 10% things, you know, 10% things, you know, you don't know,
but it's 80% that you don't even know you don't know it. So I read it when he said that it
was and I thought I was you know 80% I don't even know I don't know. But once you look
at life like that, is easier. You know, I mean, to to get by and to let things go and to not
have to be right and, and to see misery in and call it what it is and if you can help be
helpful to me. But that's the whole spiritual piece but it is at 5:30 tonight. It's Thursday,
right? Yeah. Cuz I do that because it's good people there. And it's a spiritual fight. You
know what I mean? If you ain't got your ship straight they ain't playing games you know,
they whooping ass and taking name. So what you want to do so but that's what I do. I
cannot do what it takes to gas up my tank. So why would I go to this train is trying to
Super she's super hot but why would I go to her to get my body right in my brain a right
my teeth you know
I
Isaac Tadé 1:05:39
if your spirit a right?
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 26 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 1:05:40
yes. And then I can go to lay again see this girl that just made this just me you know just a
little little something different give her the joiner life you know me? But that's what it is
though. No, that's that's what we are. Oh, I see people forget that. Because we were made
for that. You know you ain't made to see these girls eating like that and see the Oh, that's
an opportunity to see and this guy gives me about to do to get the apartment. They know
these girls know what you're doing. And when I'm wanting to get one. So chill here Tinker
there. But for the price of being warm. Yeah, you take her soul. Let her stay cold. You know
what I mean? Leave the girl alone! No, man. I mean, come on. But to get there. And I do
do pieces, you know. You know but but then again, he somebody you know, but it
sometimes it gets tough for me to want to treat him right. You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I'm gonna pray for you tomorrow, but for the day, I think I might want whoop you,
you know, you might need as well. Yeah, but but you see it all the time. Yeah, you can see
me walking around like balls, you know, like King Kong. Yeah, exactly. It's like, come on,
man. Too much of that. Yeah, that goes back to the women and kids you know me and
handicap? You know?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:07:01
Yeah. But you'd say your spirituality is centered around good people.
S
Sean Johnson 1:07:06
Yeah, okay, go worse group. I know God worst Kates an angel. She literally is the woman
I'm gonna go to the night. Oh, that was the one is two ladies and a brother. They're
angels. You know, they really are. And I know for me, God works through people. And to
some people, I'm an angel. You know, I try not to say things like that. Because I don't want
to come across you know, it's not about me. Yeah. Cuz this whole thing we do it. You
know, I'm gonna be okay. Trust me on it. However, I need to make sure that she at least
got a shot in case anybody's talking for her. You know, I mean, they really not. In any
nobody talks about a girl that's getting raped by one as opposed to 12 or the kid. Yeah,
and that's a whole nother You know, that's a whole nother level. You know what I mean?
But or the handicapped do that getting out as many when you get a fainted I like it. And I
look one time, it was all fucking 20s, I am like dude put your money in your pocket. You
know, here's what happens with me, right? When I'm walking down the street people
could just do and I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back. But there will be a dude
way across the way Hey, Shawn, this my friend. what he's doing is he's telling the people
around him if you fuck with me you know, so what? I'll do it I notice what he's doing. So I'll
go over it I you know, I let them know. Yeah, you know this, we like that. You know what I
am saying? So he has a piece? But he shouldn't have to do that. If you're a gorilla with
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 27 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
him. big gorilla with me. But he's not a gorilla just just about being any god damn gorilla.
But it's I get that a lot you know God walking with this lady. What does he like one old
lady that's one of the good and rely on some bullshit. She noticed that right? That's why
that's why you have to you know, yeah, cuz she's wasting of time. We need good people
that do a good day. Don't bullshit. I gotta wait, you know? Cuz she ain't got time for you to
figure out that she needs you to see her as human. She need people see what she is told.
You see, okay, they see me boom. Not Okay, maybe she did something that just you no, no
one could do anything to you know mean to deserve to be treated like that man. Or you
know, and sometimes you know, it's tough man but I could look in the mirror like I was
telling you earlier the day my phone rung and use that look at no matter No, no and that's
it but but but I don't know don't know mo so my phone like I just answer it. You know what
I'm saying? Could I know anybody like me? You know, and I don't know. You know me. But
it's a piece that come with it because like for the last quite a few years. You have New
Year's Eve. Everybody go around what you want some peace that's it? you can ask me
right now we're in a bar you got you know you got I want some with peace we could have
a good day we you know, but if he got no peace. That's how you do you just said you
wanted a big booty girl you know, but you got peace who knows what's around? Peace
man. Yeah, you know?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:10:42
That's, that's beautiful. Um, thank you for sharing that. How would you? How would you
say that the covid 19 pandemic has affected you.
S
Sean Johnson 1:10:53
It made me a better person.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:10:54
Really?
S
Sean Johnson 1:10:55
Dude, I haven't had a cold. I shouldn't say that. But it made me because of that, guess
what I'm reading best when I'm reading them two hours a night now. You know, I said,
That's why I do yoga as much as I do now. That's why, you know, I'm, I'm in tune to, I've
had time to look in the mirror. You know what I'm saying it and actually, what's what's
really going on here? Cuz this shit doesn't last forever? You know, says how do you really
want this game to play out? You know, but it also led me to see the inhumane more of the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 28 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
humaneness of people to you know what I'm saying? And like I say, I took the virus shot.
Everything in me told me not to do that. You know what I'm saying? It really did cuz I don't
trust the system at all. I just don't I mean, rightfully so. Yeah. You know, and so but but like
I said, cuz I had the cancer. I don't know, like five nurses like Kate, I can name five, boom,
boom, boom, and they all say the same thing. You know, and, and they will when they
can, you know? And so on that note, why would I not? Why would I not listen to girl that's
got these things behind her name, and Tuskegee. I understand it went down, you know,
but because of slavery. I mean, I can't get a job today. I mean, we could live well, what
does that stop at? You know what I'm saying? At some point, you gotta, you know, and we
looked at the same thing, and just came up with a different conclusion, but I'm not selling
people on or not selling people on it. But for me, man, we gotta take you know, and so
and that's just the way that is, you know, but um, yes. It really is. Yeah. What was the
question?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:12:41
How's the covid 19 pandemic affected you?
S
Sean Johnson 1:12:45
Now, so I got I got to see a lot of good people. You know what I'm saying? I got a lot of
good people. I went in to get a cigarette, right. And I felt these things right here, right. And
wants to brother from the Black Panther die. Yeah, me checking everything. The actor
when he got with it, oh, yeah. Yeah. Chadwick Boseman, he when he died, I'm gonna go
get everything out. You know. And so as I'm doing that, I had this thing here where they
had to put it put the ultrasound jelly on. So I go down to hcmc and a girl, she just so she
does a jelly thing. And she's typing, you know, on the computer, and she's close to me is,
you know, and this was earlier with the viruses yet and I'm thinking, this girl put her life in
danger. You know what I mean? To see if I'm okay. And that that and I didn't realize that
until I was in that moment. That nurses and doctors, you know, it's one thing in that case,
just like with the homeless, you hear it, but to actually see it in there. And when it was over,
God jokingly said, well, you don't go into rob a bank or I'm going to Target but if you if I
got this, I'm gonna wrap my glove, you know? So you know, it never came because she she
didn't they didn't she took the results to the doctor, whatever she says she's coming back.
I say, Well, shit, am I robbing the bank or not? You know? And they say, Well, I can't tell you
that but you know if they look good from what I can tell you that's what I told him that
well, I just want to say that I appreciate what you do. You know what I'm saying? Imagine
that she knew danger of going to work every day. Yeah, she don't know me. You know any
of these people in in in the hallway waiting or whatever their waiting room? Yeah. You
know what I mean? But then she just you know, she just casually but then it then it made
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 29 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
her day and, you know, our, but yeah, no one has ever said. But it's little, but it's the little
things that can make a person they or as I said earlier is a little bit that can actually
break. Yeah. So choose, I choose my words to be inspiring or helpful because even when
dude I could have said a whole bunch of things. I knew what he was doing, as he said that
robbing Kate, your robbing my friend. You know what I'm saying? But so I tell what I said
was I say dude has nothing, nothing to do with a tag. And if you hurt me was still in it Get
the hell out of him. Drag you and that's what I was saying there. Because you're robbing
my friend. And you're robbing my family that need that. You know, but but you have to be
politically but he did at least got but it but it was so full. We'll be here to Monday in a
regular way. I don't know if you got to laught. But I like that you do that dental thing? No.
Because even with me, cuz I saw the thing that got me my cousin had some shitty teeth.
And every time I saw him, I go brush my teeth, you know? But But people don't think about
them. And like I said, it's just one of those things that they So focus on just not getting
raped or getting kicked out of the crib in the morning. Just got down. Somebody had been
grinding since yesterday. So so the things that will make their quality of life better. like to
eat the burger or to not have to. But Dude, you walk around. Get that chip. Yeah. You see
that on people that? You're way too young? for that? Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
Right. But I can't judge because maybe the choices that you had to make and the choices
I had to make it you know, it's you know, Grand Canyon, as opposed to you know, that the
hill over there? You know, and that's why I don't I try not to judge. But you get to see it all.
You really do. So I was I did. But it was awful. So, you know, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:17:16
You talked about this a little bit already. But like, what are you most proud of?
S
Sean Johnson 1:17:21
Me? That I am still I was able to as we sit here today, on the 18th I can honestly look
myself in the mirror and know that I didn't bring any extra undue harm to people. Why
don't you just go knock that out, too. Don't speak for me. You know, say this girl needs a
hug. Hug and to be left alone? To me, can you put it in a mouth or anywhere? I She needs
a fucking hug and to be left alone. You know? And so I can honestly say that. And as a
human, you know, I understand that I was open enough. And when it's open enough, I
mean, spiritually, mentally, socially, to see people as people as opposed to them that us
down less than, you know what I mean? That that has something so easy to do now. You
know, and like I say, My family has expanded, you know, so I'm most proud of the fact that
I'm kind of okay, with the way I'm still looking at people and see them as human and if I
can help them I do. And I can walk around town anywhere. And I'm okay. And if no matter
what it is, it's a good thing. You know what I mean? And I'm proud of that because some
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 30 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
of them I just want them to trust All right, this dude now as I come into the house I see
three guns I say okay. I ain't have a gun. So if something go down. Now, he's a gang
member with these guys. Were in the game, right?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:19:15
When was this?
S
Sean Johnson 1:19:18
it's about seven months ago. Okay. And some go down. This is my hook and put his hands
on me. He grabbed grabbed my shirt. I get him off. I said are you fucking serious dude, but
I'm sorry three guns, right? Guess who got no gun. That would be me. So just leave. The
next day. I got my bike taxi right I roll the phone. Don't you ever think about putting your
hands on me again? He beat me up and I but he but he grabbed me in front of his boss. Is
he gonna do all this shit to me on the street. He was saying I'm thinking in my mind, you're
going to get the fuck out his house. The next day I roll up on him. And he looked up, he see
me now and I tend to dislike this. I say you had a lot of gusto last night, but if you ever
tried to shit again, we don't have a problem. Now, he didn't expect it. But I will say this
about him, though. He understood that this could go either way. But it ended up going the
right way. Because he respected the fact that I came at him like that. You see what I'm
saying? And and even after that, I don't I still you still out here. But I walked up on him
right. Now he didn't have a clue. He was sitting in a bus stop. You know, I'm still thinking
that I see too many people get hurt, just let it slide. And then I'm looking at it right. And
you don't have a clue. I'm here today. He don't have a clue. Now know what he was on
next time. But I'm standing there looking at anything. If I do this. Then the first day
popped into my mind was when I heard that just to my brother. You got 289 months?
Yeah. And that popped into my mind, as they didn't say worth, it's too easy. And I walked
off. And then I was about and we our paths crossed about three, four different times. And
then he came up to me with his boys in the daylight, right? He talking to shit. So what I did
was, I got ready to swipe. You know, oh, you just got to say you get into getting a no fly
zone. We don't see it. And he saw that. Then he you know, he pumped the brakes. And
then I saw him a few times. Now he's respectful. It was about a bottle a month of that.
Then I saw him one night. I say I say Dude, I'm glad you're a man. Because you wouldn't
shit would have went all kinds of bad bad. You know what I'm saying? And we shook
hands. You know what I mean? And we're good now. You know, but feet have been an
idiot. But that can't be too big. I'm not gonna be the victim do but if we got to be
respectful, that's one thing. But if one of us got to be a bitch, you got to put the high heels
on. Cuz I'm not. You see what I'm saying? So let's just stay respectful. Do you know what I
mean? You know, but but he got that. And so like I said, we good now. But it took that. You
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 31 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
know what I mean? Can I give a big man a little, you no, everybody be men and go, but if
you're gonna make somebody be a bitch, I'm not putting on high heels. But you know
what I'm saying? Yeah, you have
I
Isaac Tadé 1:22:46
the awareness to get yourself out of situations that might get you in trouble. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. You know, and that's something to be proud of.
S
Sean Johnson 1:22:54
Oh, yeah. Like I say, there are no extra holes in me. That petty misdemeanor is the only
real thing I can he's killing me dude, it is I just found out they can't even started up until
the first of month to get it off. You know, but so I gotta go get a shitty job. You know me,
but but it is what it is. Like I say back I'm blessed above and beyond. You know, so it is just
the next thing on the road to where I got to go. And it's a patience. It really is, you know,
but I got a good circle and my trainer. super hot. Yeah, she's super smart. She's a good
trainer. Anyway. I'm talking about Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:23:51
Okay, all right. Um, I guess my next question was about like health commons. How did you
get involved with health commonss? And then after that, how do you think that we could
improve health commonss?
S
Sean Johnson 1:24:05
Yes, this place right? Yep. I got here cuz this dude here, uncle. Yeah, he bought me here.
Cuz it gave out bus tokens. You know, he said certain people think differently. So these are
bus tokens here. And so that's why I came. But once I got here, I saw the benefit of Kate.
Katie, you know, and the group thing or whatever. But um, anyway, just somewhere to go
where they had grits. There's nothing here. I'm from the south. So you didn't get him to
and and they were consistently they were consistent God cuz, you know, I like consistency.
And I don't like surprises. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not not in that kind of situation.
You know, and but what I would what I like about it is they were consistently decent
people. You know what I mean? And, and to improve it. I don't know. For me, I think just
keep doing what you're doing man but but just but with the understanding of everybody's
a human and and their journeys are what I want to say when I say I'm a human. They
don't get that that means I kill you. You know what I mean? To kill you to resuscitate you?
Humans, you know? Right. All that, but when you but if you say you're human and be
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 32 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
humane, they No, no, no. Do you understand that? Do I mean Hello? When they try to dog
shot you with a gun? Oh, you know? Except all of who you are. They don't mean you're
gonna go around killing people. But But do you understand that? That's on the table.
Yeah, I mean, and so for me. I just I just like the idea that I was raised in a way that I could
evolve. You see what I'm saying? Cuz too many had to do. And he told me, he says, Matt
was raised like this. I no, dude, he just completely screw everybody. Everybody around
him. He just take it, you know? It's like, dude, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We can hang out.
Because A back to the high heels. Why can't everybody just be respectful for me? My
mama raised me Do your 53 at some point, you got to take responsibility for this shit. You
do he's stealing from everybody. But no, no, no, no, no. You will know how I was raised. You
know how my dad taught me to deal with that? Do you really want to know? You know
what I'm saying? Is so...
I
Isaac Tadé 1:26:59
we gotta be more than we are. Yeah, yeah, we gotta be more than that.
S
Sean Johnson 1:27:06
Yeah, cuz cuz at the time when my dad raised me at that time, that was the best that was
that. But it's thirty years later. You know, I'm saying and so for me to still be doing the shit I
was doing at 12 good. That's, you know, come on, man. It but but it was working for you
know if you can just go take everybody shit and just people. I mean, what? No, no, no, no.
Okay, here's how this is gonna work. This ain't gonna work. Because Yeah, but it just was in
my mind. I couldn't believe you said that new 53 years old. Mama raised him like that. Get
the hell out of here, dude. He just taken and but to do what he was dealing with. Yeah,
were his friends. They were all handicap. And I'm like, come on, man. This this. This just
ain't right. Do they get the money? He do. He got dude's EBT card and his cash. Dude
asking him to get his shit back. Like come home and get a man. You know, he don't know
how to handle it is. I got the handle this way. You know, you know, he's a problem. But
anyways. People take advantage of people.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:28:27
Is there anything else you'd like to say that I didn't ask?
S
Sean Johnson 1:28:32
I don't know. We kind of went all over the place. Yeah, we talked about a lot. But what I
use what I will do that I can't think of that right now. But I think I think some of the main
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 33 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
things I don't know if they were said or not, was just to see people as human. And
understand that everybody has a story. And understand as humans, that's a hell of a
spectrum. It is. You know what I'm saying? If you don't believe that turn on CNN. You know,
like, you know, but uh, but that's it, man. Just be genuine with people. You know. Don't try
not to judge. You know, but I think like I said, I think anything that has a good spirit behind
it is going to bear fruit. You know what I'm saying? That's why Kate. Kate, I think has God's
favor on her. I surround myself people like that. You got God's favor? Hello. Hey, you know
what I mean? Bring it you know. Now you know, Kate. Nice. You know, I've never told her
that. But, uh, but I think she I know she does. You know, I mean, and. But she's not alone.
She's not a unicorn. You know? She's really not. But we're not like, people like that. Can we
get God's favor you know, who knows what kind of But let's see when you got good. That's
why that dream thing to dream beyond your dream. You see what I'm saying? I never
would have thought somebody look like that, No, you know, but I meant I meant that
trend is super hot. I'm supposed to. I met Kate when I supposed to meet you when I was
supposed to. You see what I'm saying? Don't people less older like I tell him all the time
they were like angels to me? Yeah, you don't say cuz when he was going down, they had
to close it down but she came out and it was given out some sandwiches or some old shit
like that. Right? But that's not what I meant me to cover I needed. I needed you know, a
conversation. Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:30:38
Some human connection.
S
Sean Johnson 1:30:40
Yes. And so she's like, Do you need anything to say? And I don't know, can I just get what I
need? You know? What I mean? Yeah, just keep this here going. You know, it seemed when
she met me. I was on the bike with the strippers on the back. And she's like a pastor lady,
you know, and so she's looking actively looking at me, you know? But she never judged
me. Then a dude that was higher up than he was like can i by a bike from you? He wanted
to turn the bike up she stood up for the bike. You know what I mean? Cuz she had heard
stories about to bite what to do with the bike and how to bike race joy, a lot of money to
me, but but you know, to me, it's not about going to the strip club. But um, it's just man,
just five people that has God's favor on them.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:31:28
I like that.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 34 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 1:31:29
You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 1:31:29
I like that.
S
Sean Johnson 1:31:30
Yeah. Because that is simple that we we over we over complicate that keeps it simple
man. Keeps it simple. And God can be done. You know, and get what gets me through life
time because dates. I get blessed all the time. Like yesterday, I had a need and like a
need. And he took care of it. I didn't see it coming. I really did. And see guess what
happens with me? No, you know, it happens all the time. But But yeah, man, I thank my
mom for that because Karie and all the people that have been the other day the girl says,
You got to train her. And I do my trainer. Yeah, got that trainer that's hot. But you're my
trainer. Isaac, you know, Kate's my train. You know what I mean? I did girl that was even
with the hands. That's my trainer. Do you know dude with the with the tags? Yeah. Yes, my
train. You know what I'm saying? Cuz he's gonna take all that kicking this crazy day here.
To do what he supposed to do
I
Isaac Tadé 1:32:35
you're saying. We can learn from every situation for the people around us.
S
Sean Johnson 1:32:38
Isaac! He works thought people like Isaac Yes. And when will we get to where we don't
understand that we Houston we got a problem. We got a problem. You know, there's
nothing I can keep benefit from being you know, took this girl look at her. How could she
do right? You just missed out on a blesseing, right? You know what I mean? Right? And
people don't get that. Can they see me and now sumali thing? I'm in the shelter with you,
you know what I you mean? I'm not passing through the buck over there? You know, well,
you know what, suppose I'm gonna go and go to sleep and you know, but yours it's funny.
But but but there's guys hope you don't have good people. You know, in your little little
workout. You know? Yes, sir. You know? Yes, sir. You know, honestly believe that in spite of
everything you see to the contrary? God will be god and he works through people.
Isaac Tadé 1:33:44
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 35 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 1:33:44
Absolutely.
S
Sean Johnson 1:33:45
But here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna think about this, because it's important. You
know, saying if I come up with something okay, because I keep I keep something the right
way. And I notice a notebook on his phone somewhere. And I gotta find, I believe, yeah,
there we go. Okay, but yeah, so we got somewhere, take notes. Because when you when I
hear a joke, because it was joke to me, somebody else might need to hear that to my my
benefit.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:34:19
Yeah.
S
Sean Johnson 1:34:21
And he says, okay, and I keep that with me. But it also keeps me grounded. You know,
sometimes, when you see Uncle, you know, whatever, be an uncle human or whatever. It
takes a little something to not, you know what I mean? Be as human as you'd like to be,
you know, and so, but, but it's cool. I mean, I feel pretty good about about the decisions
I've made. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:34:53
You know what I mean?
S
Sean Johnson 1:34:54
And that's a good thing. You know, could never be nice. I looked in the mirror every day.
But But yeah, so it takes some doing
I
Isaac Tadé 1:35:07
getting there. Yeah, everything is a work in progress all the time. Yes, sir. I love that. Well,
thank you for your time and the rich account of your personal history. Yeah. All right. We're
good to go.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 36 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 1:35:19
Boom.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:35:20
That's it.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 37 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less