Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do y... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name?
Mohammed Dukuly 0:23
Yes, I do. Mohammed means the praised one like the prophet of Islam. It means
the praised one the one that Allah praises and also the angels also praising and
(indecipherable). So his name is Mohammed. The Dukuly we are descendants of
Jacob. You know, sometimes they tell us the meaning of that. The land owners the
the kings of the land and it can also mean Warriors, people that always been
targeted. And so we are, you know, given the story of Joseph, you find that a
lot more, in our family and outsiders looking at us from that perspective.
Malissa Lamah 1:16
Okay. What tribe do you identify yourself as?
Mohammed Dukuly 1:20
well originally we are Marka people from Mali, the descendants from Mali our
great grandfathers and then migration moved them from Mali all the way to
Liberia. And but this is not just 100 200 years ago, much more than that. And so
we sent to in the area where we speak also different dialects like Vai or Collo
and so interchangeably. People call us Mandingo Vai Mandingo, Collo Mandingo,
and so we identify ourselves with all of it because, we we do not discriminate
against the locals and we speak those tribes and so we consider ourselves Vai,
collo, madingo and kpelle in some instances.
Malissa Lamah 2:15
okay. How was life in Africa for you? How is it like in school and your daily
life?
Mohammed Dukuly 2:20
Well quite honestly, unlike many other people, maybe because of the way our
parents were. I did not face any major difficulties in growing up in life
because our father, and they have means of taking care of us, as marka. They
have so many other family, children staying with them and providing shelter,
feeding and also school, our school fees, and so forth. So there were challenges
Yes, but it was not to The point of some other people where they have to sleep
hungry, and I didn't have to go through that, where they have to struggle for
school fees. I didn't have to go through that. If the father was not around, our
mother was there. And so we were not rich but we were not to the point of abject
poverty.
Malissa Lamah 3:25
Okay, did you ever go to college and what is your current occupation?
Mohammed Dukuly 3:31
Yes, well, yes. My current occupation right now like you said, I'm a imam but
I'm a student of politics and also Islam. A I spent a large number of my May as
the age actually going out to Islam, studying Islam under the dictatoralship of
not just my father, my uncle and also Sheikh Mohammed, for (indecipherable),
they're knowledgeable people today in the world. Islam. If you can't he will be
among the first five, and so many other scholars as well.
Malissa Lamah 4:11
Okay, as a kid, as a kid what was Islam to you, when did you realize that you're
Muslim?
Mohammed Dukuly 4:17
Well, we're born in Islam. Our father is a scholar. He was a teacher professor
teaching. A lot of students knowledgeable people come from all over all walks of
life. So we grew up our mother. Also our background is Islam, like I told you,
we are descendants of Jacob. And so throughout the lives of our grandparents,
great grandparents, our fathers, they teach Islam, so we were born in Islam. We
didn't convert to Islam were born Islam. So we live Islam we wake up Islam, we
sleep we eat Islam. And so it was easy for us to be called Muslims because this
is what we knew.
Malissa Lamah 4:58
Okay, who inspired you to learn more about Islam.
Mohammed Dukuly 5:02
My dad, my dad and my dad was the main inspiration and our mother our father was
like I say, a great teacher. And so he he always called upon us even after
school he said come and learn it because the life doesnât they have bone in
it, It can go anytime. And So he he actually put more effort encouraged us to
learn more about it. And I wish I had done this maybe 10 times more than I did
you know, so that I can know more. But I'm given whatever went through with him
and others quite show is helping me to help other people as well
Malissa Lamah 5:44
Okay did you always study Islam. How did you start to go like interest in
religion?
Mohammed Dukuly 5:50
You know, I grew up like I said to you, my our father had a lot of students he
was teaching them and I begin I started to grow interest in that. So Here is
what we had this Islamic school that we go to it was it was Islamic. It was
actually the combination of Western is what it call school and Islamic school
together And so we go to school, we have a classes with Arabic teacher, and then
we'll also go to our regular classes. And then we'll come back in the evening we
also have to learn our and father will teach us and then go for Islamic Studies
at the teachers house. So that was really tedious. You know So we have to not
only that we have to get up early in the morning to do Islamic studies get ready
to go to school to go to school we have to so when we graduated from high
school, we actually graduate a concurrently with two High School Certificate
because you graduating from the Islamic High School at the same time, but it's
the same school, you know, so a that was that was really an amazing thing. You
know, and so That was the motivation because there was no no time to waste by
the way, no time to waste.
Malissa Lamah 7:06
Okay, let's see who inspired you to learn more about islam,
Mohammed Dukuly
My father.
your father?
7:10
Malissa Lamah 7:11
Yeah Okay. Let's see, after high school, did you just continue to study Islam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:17
Yes. I've never stopped everything I'm doing now never stopped. Because it's a
process that you can't stop.
Malissa Lamah
Yes
7:24
Mohammed Dukuly 7:24
you know, you have to keep you have to keep reading you have to keep you know,
voluminizing yourself with different opinions of different scholars, different
schools of thought and so so forth. And even just the Quran alone, you could be
studying that throughout your life.
Malissa Lamah 7:41
When did you become an imam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:44
Well, I became an Imam I think 1986. But in the house in our compound, we have
masjid. So this masjid I was one of the imams there but the Supreme Council of
Islamic Affairs in 1986. commission me as an imam. You know, so from that point
to this point, I have served. But prior to that, With the masjid we have in our
yard? Any one of us could be Imam to led the prayers and then even before that,
I was also like assistant imam of the masjid, you know, in our city
(indecipherable) Assistant Imam to the Imam. You know but, at that time because
I was much younger, I could not do the Friday prayers, but it came to a time I
started to, to also assist the Imam on Friday, prayers and so and so forth. And
I was the one making the dua I was the (indecipherable) I was the one if the
Imam is not around I lead the prayers and so and so forth. It was really
encouraging from everybody, you know, to make us to grow up in a way that if
theyâre on that route we can represent them.
Malissa Lamah 8:47
Yeah. Okay. When did you come to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 8:52
Well, to come and stay that I can say 2004 since 2004. I've been here but my
first time I ever came to America. Maybe this is almost like 30 something years
I came here. But this time I came 2004 I've been here ever since.
Malissa Lamah 9:11
How was it for you like to from that change from Africa to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 9:15
Quite honestly. There are a lot of cultural differences, cultural differences,
and, you know, just imagine growing up with people. And when you here you're not
around them, you know, and there too many things happening behind you, some of
your family members, friends, colleagues, schoolmates, passing away and then
that just the fathom youâre not around to participate in either their burial
or the ceremonies and this that. so all of that brings a lot of different
emotional issues. Having said that, America yes we might be away from our
cultural environment. But America does not stop you from practicing your culture
here. And so What I have done is to look at the good things that exist in
America and apply it in my life. You know, there are so many things to learn
here, you know, apply in my life and use it to help other people. You know, I
can't be here just because I come from a cultural background maybe. And then I
ignore the good things here. And So because because I've been able to assimilate
to to understand that number of things that are good here. So it make my life
makes my life easier.
Malissa Lamah 10:31
Okay, where did you live when you first came here?
Mohammed Dukuly 10:34
Well Well, I have always live in Minnesota. I came here. The first time I ever
came to Minnesota was 1987 yeah 97. I came here and then I went back, you know,
I came to see my sister. And So the second time like I said, 2004 I came, you
know, we just been here and just just just look at a the vast difference between
the weather condition coming from a tropical weather, and come into the
excessively cold area. Yeah, but we've been able to adjust ourselves. It has not
been easy to cold and you know, we canât hundred percent adjust ourselves to
it but given environment and and also the friendship that we've been able to
establish here. It makes us to to actually forget about the weather.
Malissa Lamah 11:17
Okay, so you came here. You came to Minnesota specifically because of family
that was here?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:22
because of family. Yes.
Malissa Lamah 11:23
Okay. Let's see, how are you able to get in contact with other West Africans in
Minnesota?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:29
Well, because of the of the religion. We have family here that were here before
I came. And one of the ways that I were able to connect myself with the entire
African community in Minnesota is because of my cousin, who came and asked me to
to go to Masjid Noor and re-lead the prayers, because they have wanted for an
Imam To to also come from West African community Who will from time to time help
to preside over the prayers. And I said to him well yes Im Imam but I don't want
to do this well they begged me and so I I started to go to Noor and then we
close the Mosque and rebuild it and then I became imam there ever since then and
so because of that I was able to bring the entire West African community
together we all go there and pray and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 12:26
Wow, was Masjid Noor one that was in Minneapolis
Mohammed Dukuly 12:29
Yeah on Lydale 1729 Lyndale Avenue North
Malissa Lamah 12:33
okay, So coming to America as a Muslim for you, how was it what are some of your
positive and negative experiences?
Mohammed Dukuly 12:41
Well the positive thing I can say is that we came in we got accommodated but in
those days when you're traveling because sometimes because your name is
Mohammed? Yeah, then when they say is a random check in and then they throughly
check you of course my coming it was a different thing, I did not experience
that. However being here I've never personally been confronted by any
individual, because of my faith, or sense of about our community feels
threatened by heightened political rhetoric, you know, political leaders making
comments that could incite all those against Muslims. And so that is
intimidating enough. You know, so I don't have to be targeted as an individual,
but if the community is targeted I feel targeted. And by the way, it's not the
majority of the people that targets the Muslims. Maybe they just mini portion.
And so I look at the goodwill of the majority of American people, whether it is
in Minnesota, in particular, some of the political leaders I have been invited
to Congress to talk about these issues and I saw how accommodating the senators
were, in terms of guarantee the protection and the freedom for everybody, as
long as we live in this country
Malissa Lamah 14:15
Has the community ever been targeted at all? From what you've seen?
Mohammed Dukuly 14:19
Well, if if one like For instance, if masjid like masjid in Bloomington was
targeted, so why would I feel immune that my masjid will not be targeted and it
so nobody can tell me some isolated case, it was a concerted effort and the fact
that even our leader refused to condemn that, that was even more frightening.
And so, for whatever reason, he didn't do it. But uh, Alhumdulliah we like we
always say, we don't depend on the protection of man. We depend on the
protection of the Almighty God and God is protecting us (indecipherable) being
giving the action of So many political leaders definitely maybe I don't know
whether it's a tactic to scare people away from here or something. But
Personally, maybe I have not been targeted, but I fear particularly for our
daughters who are wear hijab and they're targeted 10 times more than the men
because because of the way they look and so, in their workplaces, in the schools
and campuses or even in the shopping malls, and so and so forth or driving by
themselves, you know, and so somebody who just target them, and so it is only by
Godâs own protection that they are, they have been able to, to live their
lives.
Malissa Lamah 15:49
Have you faced any microaggressions or stereotypes at all?
Mohammed Dukuly 15:54
well but of course, every single person of color when you even walk in the
store, you're already been a suspect of a crime that you did not commit. And so,
we see that they don't have to come directly to you to say, you know, you see
these innuendos, you see these actions that are part of people, business
centers, you know and so and so forth, they might not come to you directly and
but they feel somehow you know for instance I walk in a store and this is just
few maybe two weeks ago, and then I went a particular something but it was
locked up I told the lady to what it call so you can, so you canât put your
hand in there you only what it call something and I could buy the whole
stuff,and entire stuff, but because I'm black, she looked down upon me and this
is something that this particular girl when I started using this product she was
not even born. She was not even born. So it is a product that I've been using
for the last maybe more than 25 years. And she's this like maybe 19 or 20 so she
was not even born, but I acce- I felt really bad because what if I was a white
guy? She wouldn't do that.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
17:20
Mohammed Dukuly 17:20
So I feel aggressed but I let go because I don't want for anybody to lose their
job because of those kind of stuff, but we always feel feel-Even when we're when
I'm going out I always feel that somebody will aggress me whether it is in a
shopping center or maybe in the street or or just because the way we look, you
know, just because the way we look they at us with suspicious eyes.
Malissa Lamah 17:50
Yes. And do you feel that being a person of color and black, I mean not even
black, and Muslim, it makes it worse for you?
Mohammed Dukuly 17:58
of course yes that makes it Worst and because also of the position some of us
occupy, I canât hide myself, I canât do that I have to be open. And so I I
expect aggression. Now, I don't have to be aggressed to feel the pinch of it.
But the anticipation of that the fact that I have expected that somebody could
do it is worse than even the attack itself. So most people don't understand that
it's not because they attack you. It's because you're expecting somebody could
attack you. That is worse than me at that. You know, that you live in constant
fear and frustration, you know, and these expectations bring that kind of, you
know, feeling to you.
Malissa Lamah 18:37
Yes. Okay, so now let's talk about MMA, the Minnesota Madingo Association. How
did that come about? And did you take part of it?
Mohammed Dukuly 18:46
Well, I wasn't here when when the MMA started but MMA started as a result of
community getting together to unite and also provide cultural practice and
education for not just for the for the older folks but for our children. The
children that were born here and also find a way to see how we can make them to
understand that yes, they're American kids, but they also have a cultural
connection. So in order and then to if you don't have the elders, the parents
getting together, most definitely that becomes a difficult situation. Now, when
I came into it, Instead of just having a social club, I decided to talk about
Masjid, you know, that was not in the program because Masjid can easily bring us
together because we meet unlike MMA, a monthly basis, the Masjid we meet every
week in Ramadan we meet every day and every night You know, so, so and then we
also attach a school that will open we brought all the community kids together
even you are a beneficiary of that. And so we brought it community kids
together. The children that did not even know each other before they get to know
each other, and then also even for the strengthening the relationship between
the parents even sometimes the parents that were not speaking to each other,
because when they see the kids, you know, embracing each other. And that became
a source of further uniting and straightening the MMA. So, MMA is is a viable
organization in terms of how it has served the community in terms of when they
saw marriage program going on. Baby naming ceremoney, or somebody dies MMA works
around that and develop resources to be able to take care of all of that. So, so
that's my involvement. So I am I am part of MMA, and MMA is apart of our
community, as an Imam I'm part of all the organizations and even part of the
Guinean Association and I'm part of what it called something Nigerian community
the Gambian the Senegalese and So and I'm with all of these group because we all
pray together and then also they need me at relevant services I go to their
mosque I go everywhere, you know, when they need me, they see me as their imam.
And so I shall not just make myself a member just of one organization I have to
do with everybody, particularly everybody praying behind me. So, so that is my
involvement, not just with MMA, but different community organization.
Malissa Lamah 21:22
Okay. And what do you hope to see that this program can achieve in future?
Mohammed Dukuly 21:28
Well, I think what this program is going to achieve is, is further strengthening
the relationships between individual members and within the culture community
itself. And then also, the children coming up will know that their parents came
from somewhere. You know, it will tell you some people came here before maybe
about 80-100 years ago, from the Middle East. And they have places like Medina.
Yeah so it's like (indecipherable) it so this way Arabs who open some of the
series here, but because they lost the language and they lost their cultural
practices today if say somebody tell you the history, you can't even know they
existed. And so, what we hope to achieve through this organization is that a
constant reminder of where we are from. And so the children behind us they will
see that as a way of connecting themselves with the continent where their
fathers came from or in by extension, maybe their grandfathers because we're
also having grandkids here.
Malissa Lamah 22:48
So do you think that culture is very important for next generations in the
community?
Mohammed Dukuly 22:54
culture is very important. culture is very important to us. And we should make a
more important image to our kids because Why, the society has a way of, of
taking away, particularly the most powerful nations like America they, it has a
way of taking away the cultural practices of the people now, what is our
culture? Our culture is a culture of respect. The reason why we emphasize that
it's not just the language it's the way we behave, how respect our elders how
look after our kids, and extended family members, we want for our kids to know
that and service to humanity. And this is what our fathers did, can you imagine?
Every single day, our mothers used to cook food, and keep some food for the
stranger that they will not even expecting. Every day, they will do this. And so
we want for our children to know, and sometimes we pray that no strangers should
come so we can we can eat the food and something like that. But every day they
have to do this. So those are all unique cultural practices that we don't want
for our Children to lose that we want for them to know that this is important.
Yes, you in America, but you have to be humble. You have to be respectful. You
have to be caring, you have to be loving. You have to you have to provide for
others who might not even be related to you. And then also know how you can help
your family and sosososo. So that's the reason why cultural our culture is
important because it's highly embedded into into Islamic principles.
Malissa Lamah 24:30
Okay. And in general, not about you, it can be about anybody, but do you think
that culture our culture/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Mohammed Dukuly 24:41
Yes, yeah. Um, so
,yes, the culture interferes, because the reason why that happens is because of
sometimes most of the people that are practicing their religion, they're
ignorant of the religion, so they could be practicing something and believe that
this is Islam is a - like for instance, okay let me just say this Islam requires
a parents to ask the young girl her consent in order for her to get married to
anybody, the culture denies that the culture chooses they make arranged
marriage. Islam the Prophet .... say ask your daughter, if she is willing to get
married to a particular individual. If she says no, it said don't force her, but
our culture, even sometimes to the extent of saying if you don't marry to this
person, I would disown you and they do that. So that interferes with the with
the Islamic principle. You know, and people people do that all the time. They
don't what it called something. And it's another thing also the culture
interferes is a okay. Someone is married to somebody else's daughter. The mother
the mother in law of this lady interferes with her marriage. So as a result,
most of the marriages are breaking down because of that cultural thing. Their
mother, she has led her own house. Now she want to come and control her son's
house. As a result of this, there's always a clash. And that's wrong because
when you get married to a woman, that woman, this is her house, he has control
over this, not your mom, but because of the cautious some of the men even don't
understand that this house is is is the woman of this house that in charge
because that's what the Prophet ... Say (indecipherable) the woman is a
custodian of her husband's house. You know, it's not that it's not your mother.
It's not your mother, but the mothers are interfering and that's based on
culture is not based on Islam. And we all wear the hijab and everybody look
Hajah, and Moumina and Khalita and all that but so those are cultural
deficiencies That actually interferes with a true religion of Islam now, if you
don't know islam and you see a Muslim doing that you almost as aware this what
Islam teaches? it's not the case. So the culture interferes with that kind of
stuff and also the culture. The culture, the way the culture is, is like some of
the culture when it is in Africa that women are not supposed to express
themselves. Women are not supposed to be hoarders of personal property and islam
Say women can own her own property and woman and her husband can have a
conversation. All that is required for both parties is that when the husband
speaks to the wife he should be respectful, when woman speaks to the husband
should be respectful. And if there are kids do not do the arguing in their
presence because why they will learn from you are the highest teacher, in front
of your kids so all of those things. Some of these practices of clash with
Islamic culture and tradition.
Malissa Lamah 28:03
Okay, and let me (indecipherable) into Islamic beliefs, what do you see
happening in our, like community a lot that you think should be changed or
doesn't go along with Islamic beliefs,
Mohammed Dukuly 28:20
Well not just Islamic belief, I think was, honestly frankly speaking what I
don't like in our community, and I hope and pray, and I worry about this every
day that this could change.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
28:33
Mohammed Dukuly 28:33
is is personal envy, I know it will always be there. But I have seen some other
communities where it comes to the growth of the community. They abandon personal
envy, and they promote their community and they go up because the stronger
people you have in the community the better for that community, but for us, yes,
we can We get pretend, we say, Oh, yes. But we'll see one of us excelling, way
up. We do everything to bring that person down. As a result, we all remain down.
There's nobody up, who is the most powerful person, in our community in
Minnesota, if you ask this question, people will be scratching your head,
because it doesn't exist, not that we don't have the potential or the capacapacity to be strong. But it's because of the fear that if I show myself off or
if I begin to help the people I become the target for that, so why would I want
to risk my, my, my future on it, because I went ahead and so some people back
down they back off. So this is a negative self that exists in our community, and
I wish and pray that this can change, hopefully that can change. And so and then
also, and that is, is is what I consider self centeredness. You know, so people
are more concerned about themselves. They are not concerned about the community
if the community is strong and growth definitely will be able to to address lot
of challenges. That immigrant communities are faced with but because we don't
work together, we backbite each other we slander each other. And so, we bring
people who are excelling who could help us and we put eye under them and we try
to bring them down. So as a result everybody keeping their shell.
Malissa Lamah 30:17
So what do you feel like to solve that problem? What would be what stuff can be
done to fix that?
Mohammed Dukuly 30:24
I would hope that if we can make because it is going to be difficult to change
the hood of folks, if we can build institutions and educate our children that
born here to see that their success, and this their strength will be based in
community unity, and that the more people are together, the better the community
will rise and providing that kind of platform in education. I think maybe that
that's the only hope I have. But to say our community, giving what we are what I
see every day, and older folks, it's going to be difficult to change that. So if
we can get together and build institutions that can, can, can can move the minds
of our children. I think that will help a lot. Because why I am saying this
because the children born here they're open minded. They are open minded, and
they understand the issues. And then also parents must be willing to sit down
with their kids to actually talk because some of them because of the cultural
practices, they don't even want to listen to the child to say anything you can't
ask me this question you ca-this is disrespectful? But most of these parents
have never had even one minute opportunity to sit with their kids and tell them
what is what is do-able and what is not acceptable in the African culture. What
is that culture we don't teach it to our kids the children don't our culture is.
So we build institutions that can really, truly address this issue. I think we
We have hope and only hope is our children, people like you and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 32:06
Okay. And do you believe that there's cultural division in the West African
Muslim community?
Mohammed Dukuly 32:11
Of course there is.
Malissa Lamah
How so?
32:13
Mohammed Dukuly 32:14
there is there is there was this going to always be. Yeah the Quran says yeah,
so God says that that division and that diverse view will always exist among us
is going to be there, you know, but how do we use that divsion is what matters.
There is always going to be the various view diversify communities, within the
cultural communities there is, you know, and by the way, the question of
addressing one of the one of the problems we have that I don't like to see
addition to, you know, is is, is tribalism. tribalism is the foundation For the
destruction of our community, yeah, tribalism is a people, people. Some people
think that their tribe is more superior to other tribes. They disdain they treat
people with disdain, with disrespect. My tribe is more superior. And Islam,
Islam says the most important person in the sight of Allah, is the one who fears
God best. It's not the tribe. It's not Arab. It's not white. It's not yellow.
It's not cream. It's just the person who fears Allah, the best is the best. And
so if we are Muslims, that will subside to the Quran, we cannot go and promote
tribal, tribal collections. Tribalism and so and so forth. You can use the
tribe for the unity of the community but you can't use the tribe to divide
people. So the question you ask, yes, of course there is a tribal division, in
our Mn- in our community and that is based on how people feel about themselves.
That (indecipherable) that I just mentioned. So there is. And there's going to
always be, particularly depending on the type of leadership we produce our
community some of us we don't subscribe to tribalism. I don't care about tribe.
I do respect my tribe. I do honor my tribe, but the tribe will not step in my
way in serving the rest of the community, that will not happen. I will not
subscribe myself to anything like that.
Malissa Lamah 34:25
And do you think tribalism, tribalism is the issue because people are ignorant?
Or what do you think tribalism is a thing
Mohammed Dukuly 34:35
ignorance is one thing and then the other thing is the way that the culture had
been practiced. You see, this is in Africa we see in Africa. Madingo mosque,
Fula mosque. Susu mosque, you know, yes, they have this Vai mosque, Vende mosque
you know, all the Limba mosque, Marka mosque I'm just saying it so so. So now
people who are used to this from home and the people came here most people came
here they just gone to work and some people are already old or were old when
they came here. So to get them divorce their mind from that kind of practice it
becomes difficult. So even if it's not too harm, okay, but because the used to
doing it it's like become normal kind of stuff for them, you know, because they
grew up seeing this and they normalize it. They normalize it but islamically
it's wrong is wrong because there should be no no tribal box. That's why we say
Masjid al-Hab? We canât say- we couldâve even posted Abraham name on
there... we say Masjid Abraham in Mecca we say masjid Al - Hab they said
Baytullah, Allahâs house. Because all the messages (indecipherable) the Quran
says (indecipherable) all the mosque belong to Allah. But we canât keep saying
this tribal mosque this tribal and so that is a huge problem. Ignorance is one
thing, but also cultural practices. To put -solidify the kind of practice we
see.
Malissa Lamah 36:23
Okay. And from your point of view, how has Islam changed, for instance, like
your generation compared to now? How is it changed, like practices and other
things like that?
Mohammed Dukuly 36:35
Oh, there's a lot of change that has taken place in my lifetime. When we were
growing up, we didn't see the level of extremist behavior that we see today.
People killing the themselves the private women of learning and why are people
so angry? And and what we see Muslim countries, imposing more harm upon their
own brothers and sisters we didn't see this this was not what it called. We
didn't see this before. And the people become hard hearted. Today to the point
of if Allah has not promise to protect Islam. This was the basis for which Islam
could've have been annihilated completely from the surface of the earth. Because
of the way people have gone to the extreme. The Prophet.. told us.
(indecipherable) I treat you to be aware of manners of exaggeration in the
religion it say don't go there it (indecipherable) it say because it destroy
nations before you it destroy nations before you so there's a lot of changes we
didn't have this kind of fear you traveling before it was not a problem Islam or
some Muslims have been the response the cause you go to the airport we have to
spend hours you could go to the airport five minutes to the boarding time and
just go check in and you gone. Today you have to go two hours if not four hours
in order to be able to catch a flight. So there are a lot of changes that has
taken place. And also even in the practice. Yes, Islam is growing. But but but
but the love, we saw our fathers our mothers demonstrating for their neighbors
for their friends, and show of the care that they had, you know, we don't see
the level of care like that, you know, we become self centered, everything is
about us. It's not about others, you know. So those things are gradually fading
fading away, and so and so forth. You know the practice just in this America yes
Islam is growing. You see people practicing Islam is now magnified in the world
maybe 10 times or 100 times more, yes. But also there are a lot of negative
things associated with it. And because of the behavior of some of the Muslims,
you know, some of the Muslim Yes, there are people who are not Muslim who
provoke Muslims to do what it called something, but you don't have to go to the
extreme to make your point. If you just practice what Islam teaches, I think
that can address the issues of the non Muslims attacking us. But if you leave
the the true practice of Islam, because somebody provoke you and do something,
of course, you're going to have these negative consequences.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
39:37
Mohammed Dukuly 39:37
And so, as a result of that, even as some may say moderate Muslims, what do you
call moderate Muslims? Muslims aren't supposed to be moderate. We supposed to be
balanced, we don't go to the extreme, we are not weak to the point where we
allow people to aggress us but if people are aggressive anyone responding we
should respond in kind, you can't go to the extreme. That's what Islam says but
see what people do. If you go and kill, you Taliban in Afghanistan, who you
killing? If you reach way in Iran, who you killing? Yourbrothers. In Yemen, who
you killing? Your brothers. You never going to have chance to go to the Western
world and create war there, you don't have the capacity. So who are you killing?
So why are you killing people for? Is it because of Islam? I said No, it's
because of political reasons they have their own because if it was Islam we will
not fight. We will not fight because Allah is sufficient for all of us.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
40:35
Mohammed Dukuly 40:36
So it's because of political reasons people are fighting but they claim, they
are fighting in the name of Islam, and that is frightening. That is frightning
for all of us.
Yes. Do you believe that media plays a part in that?
Of course they do. Because one of the one of the problems that we have I don't
know because of political reasons. Look just recently at one of the military
campuses here a white guy, attack and killed people there. And he was never
charged with terrorism. A Saudi guy went and do the same thing perhaps less on
the lesser scale. Oh, it was called a terrorist. So so. And not only that,
because I have sat in forums. The security in the United States. All the
security agencies here in the United States. They are of the opinion. And this
is based on facts. research that they've done, that they white extremism, post
more harm to the United States. Then the al Qaeda, ISIS, all of them combined.
They not even 5% of the threat to the United States, you know and so and so
forth but is that is not highlighted? Why is that so and because sometimes the
media plays a major role in it, only of recently been trying to change a little
bit. But before anything to happen it terrorism, anything that happen is a
muslim terrorist. Christians commit aggression every day even today as I speak
to you in New Jersey. These guys went to the Jewish people Kosher shop where
they can do the what it called they slaughter the meat in a Halal way and they
to walk in there and kill people there. And they are never going to be called
extremists or terrorists. What are terrorism is if you use any form of
aggression to intimidate people is a form of terrorism. And you have gun you
going to the shop the man came down from UHaul truck with a gun and walk in the
shop and start shooting people. And then not only that they're also accusing
them of having also kill another group of people, you know, even if they die in
the process of exchaning gunfire with the police. So this is where we see the
difference, you know, and that is that you're targeting a particular community.
You know, and so the media play a major role in this.
Malissa Lamah 43:22
yes media does play a major role. And in your opinion as Imom, do you think that
Islam has room for both feminism and LGBTQ?
Mohammed Dukuly 43:33
let's address the first question. Yes, Islam. Islam doesn't take away the rights
of women faces. Islam is the religion that came to actually grant freedom to
women. One of the reasons why the disbelievers are fighting the Prophet.... is
because they believe that women in the Arabian peninsula in the world by the
time, that women were property for men. And to the point the men were creating
(indecipherable) for women it mean that means the man could divorced a woman.
But she was not allowed to marry to somebody else. And he's not fully married to
her. So she would hang in a abyss it's not okay to abolish all of that. So the
Prophet... Mohammed was asked about the status of women in Islam. It said we are
equal when they pray the way we pray, they fast we fast. They do the work of
Allah, Allah cannot diminish their reward because they're woman. You know the
response from the Arabs? They said well what is the matter with this man? Women
are our property, you come and you want to make them equal to us? So Islam came
to actually abolish those practices. And one of the things that Islam also did
Is that in the Christian they've always accused women, a woman was the reason
for the downfall of men from heavens. The Quran said no, Adam is the one
that...Adam is the one who disobeyed God and he transgressed. You see how Islam
came and exonerated the woman? Now when it come to your last portion of your
last question. Islam does not support I speak to you frankly, Islam does not
support the the LGBT teaching. Okay. And the gays or lesbians that is Islam does
not have room for is Islam frowns on this. That's the truth. Islam frowns on
this. Having said that, the only thing we can't do number one we could we could
speak against it. Number two, you could also hate it in your heart. But we are
not in a in a society where you can take any action against it. So what I'm
saying here, we have to understand the society in which we live is a society
that is free for everybody. We are not in Saudi Arabia, where Islamic Sharia is
the principal law for the governance of this of the country. Here, that's a
freedom of choice to choose what you want to do or what you want to be. But in
Islamic culture, We are confined to Islamic principles and that Islamic
principle frowns on the issuea of lesbianism so Islam does not support that
islam does not support that. But I also understand that we are not living in the
Sharia Governed country, you have to understand that
Malissa Lamah 47:18
yeah free world.
Mohammed Dukuly
Yeah,
47:19
Malissa Lamah 47:20
okay. This is the last question. Now that you're grown up, and understand Islam
better. What is the meaning of Islam to you? And is it a way of life?
Mohammed Dukuly 47:27
Well, to me, Islam is a way of life. I walk Islam, I Islam mom, I sleep Islam, I
wake up Islam, I eat Islam I greet Islam. I extend my relationship to people
because of Islam. You know, and I spread Islam. I teach Islam, I love Islam. And
Islam is made the principal covenant principle for me as a Muslim is my way of
life. Islam means total submission to the will of the Almighty. And sometimes
people just stop there. What does that mean? It means believing in the Almighty
and subscribing to all of his teachings. So it does not just mean to do a five
daily prayer or give charity or fast Ramadan or go to Hajj or believe in a...It
means everything that Allah and His Prophet to us to do. That what it means
Islam. They Prophet talk about our neighbors, how to be kind to them, when they
are sick, visit them when they are hungry, give them food to eat, when they need
loan, give it to them. When they die attend their federal, so that what Islam
means and that islam means to also find ways to take care of the poor, to take
care of the needy to take the take care other half rest and down truly in the
dust. That is what Islam means. Islam means helping hand to maybe to someone
stranded. Someone in debt someone maybe under custody, somebody who is a
wayfarer, maybe a student who does not have means to help himself or herself,
maybe to pay their tuition in order to (indecipherable) somebody who does not
have means of transportation, somebody who is hungry somewhere, a beggar take
care of them. That is what Islam means, that's what Islam means. Islam means to
be respectful to others Islam means to take care of your family, your spouse,
your children, that what Islam is. Islam means the one who represent the Prophet
Muhammad SAW in the most noble way that what Islam is, it's not just Allah Akbar
(indecipherable) no their all, that,what it means. So if you say I am a Muslim,
a Muslim, the objective right now it means one with home. Everyone is safe.
Yeah, it's not just one who submit to the world. That's what it means. One with
home everyone is safe. And so that's what it means to be a Muslim. You know, so
your neighbor doesn't have to be a Muslim. They have right over you. They don't
have to be a Muslim. And so that is what Islam means.
Malissa Lamah 50:18
Okay, well, that wraps up our interview. Do you have any questions for me?
Mohammed Dukuly 50:26
The only question I have for you what this interview means to you.
Malissa Lamah 50:32
I believe that this interview is very important. Because once we upload it on
the Augsburg website, in the future, other people can see it and see what our
culture was really about. If there's no one to speak for us, they can listen to
this interview and see what Madingo people are about what Islam is really about.
How are West African Muslims in Minnesota are who are they really about? Because
in Minnesota I feel like is mostly about East Africans, and West Africans aren't
really given the voice to talk, so I hope that this interview will help for
people in the future and people now who are in need of it.
Mohammed Dukuly 51:07
Yeah. So I think want to make a closing statement and that statement is that
West African community In Minnesota, they are not liability on the government.
There are, We have doctors, we have nurses, we have healthcare workers. We have
people in the factories in the medical industry. We have males we have, we have
council members, we have people with good NGOs that are not just talking about.
we addressed number of health related issues educational related issues we've
make policies in the school district we change that. And so I agree with you
because most of the time that we just think about a East Africans but West
Africans are Making enormous contribution towards a society they're taxpayers,
they're homeowners, and we have kids here and so and so forth. So, but I believe
that we need to do more of this to be able to give voice to our community.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
52:14
Mohammed Dukuly 52:14
Because in law, what you can't do for yourself, the law can't do for you. The
law, the law is not in a book but you, you have to do for yourself before the
law can speak for you. You know, so I fully agree with you. We have to give
voice to our community and that's why some of us have been doing so we are not
just here because we want to impose on a governor of United States or Minnesota
but we are serving this community. Some of the leaders told me include the
senators, and that if Liberian community or the West African community were to
withdraw today? From the healthcare industry, the hospitals and nursing homes,
senior homes, the entire state would break down it'll collapse almost instantly.
That'll happen and so it means that we are making enormous contribution, you
know, so we need to let the public know that. Yeah, I think this kind of
interview actually gave us the platform to do that. So, thank you so much for
bringing that up. I am always willing to come, maybe some of your students, if
you have some time, you can come You can come in there and let them ask
questions about cultural tradition and experience in Minnesota. I think that
would be a good thing to do.
Malissa Lamah 53:33
Yes. And thank you so much for coming for this interview today.
Mohammed Dukuly
Thank you.
53:36
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Sene... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Senegal. And I learned- I live in Brooklyn Park, Champlin.
Malissa Lamah 0:18
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name at all?
Dienabou M'boup 0:21
My name is derived from the name Zainab. But, um, I guess you can say it's
Africanized, I guess you can say
Malissa Lamah 0:30
Okay and do you have an interesting quick fact about yourself?
Dienabou M'boup 0:36
I skipped first grade.
Malissa Lamah
Why?
Dienabou M'boup
I don't know.
0:38
0:39
Malissa Lamah 0:43
Okay, let's get into the other questions. So as a kid, what was Islam to
you? And when did you realize that you were first like Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 0:51
So that's kind of a hard question. Because I don't really remember but
like, I can say that Okay, when I was a kid, I knew that I was Muslim. I
knew that like I knew it was a part of me I knew I couldn't eat pork I
knew that actually I and I remember I would even have conversations like
in like first grade second grade like oh yeah, I'm Muslim I can't do this
and then like my friends would try to like tell me no you're supposed to
do this But like, I guess you can say I knew I was Muslim but I never
really practiced and like is a thing in the in the West African community.
It's like it like we know we're Muslim but you don't even practice, right?
That's the norm What was the second part?
Malissa Lamah 1:42
The second part was when did you first realize you were Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 1:45
Um, yeah, I always knew I was Muslim. Yeah, I always knew I was Muslim.
Malissa Lamah 1:49
Okay. Where did you go for prayers like what community or tribe do you
spend most of your time with?
Dienabou M'boup 1:54
So when I was younger? ah,
Malissa Lamah 1:58
or up until now
Dienabou M'boup 1:59
I mean, Like now I feel like it was different when I was younger when I
was younger I was like, I guess you can say like I was just I don't know I
wouldn't really pray and like go to people for prayers or whatever just
cuz I don't know I think I kind of just went through life. I just went
with the flow.Whenever I, whenever I needed something or whatever I would
never really go back to like God or like religion or prayers I think I
would just I just nonchalant about it. I guess you can say now. I don't
really go to people for prayers or whatever. I kind of like do it myself
because I feel like my relationship with God is kind of like you know,
with myself and then also, I guess you can say the tribe that I spend most
of my - well my mom is Fulani. But I have a lot of East African friends
or whatever. So Yeah, I have a lot of East African friends and I do hang
out with some like Fulani people but then I also have, I have a lot of I
have a diverse friend group and like the people like I just whenever I
whenever I need prayers now whatever when I go to my friends I just go to
my friends and like I said, I have a very diverse friend group. So, yeah.
Malissa Lamah 3:23
So let me see. So the next one is kind of about your tribe again. Do you
think your cultures/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Dienabou M'boup 3:33
Personally for me? no, cuz I don't let it. But generally, yes And a lot of
like things like when talking about like marriage when talking about like,
just like the way that you're supposed to just be period. Yes, like, for
like, I guess you can say is like islamically like or like even Culturally
like back home like this is the time that like we usually I guess you can
say are like talking about marriage and all that other stuff right? And
but like whenever sometimes like when I bring my mom when I when I'm like
Oh mom I'm talking to this guy she's like Where is he from? I'm like he's
not from any of our own. She's like, well or whatever and I'm just like,
and then but like I remember when I would ask her before she'd be like, as
long as he's Muslim and he's a practicing Muslim and all of this but then
like (indecipherable) the light comes out when when the when reality hits
when I actually bring someone to her but I guess you can say like, just in
like different things like that. For my family. We don't really let it
because like, we're more on the religious side. Obviously, there's like,
the culture and there's tradition. So like, like, another thing is like in
Islam We're not supposed to do superstition- superstition, period. But in
our culture, there's a lot of superstition, so much superstition. And my
mom, like she's gotten to the point where she hates it, but then it's
like, but then it's like it's like, she, what am I trying to say?It's
like, for it's still it's still in the culture. So like I said,
personally, for me and my family, we don't let culture we have our
culture, but we do. But our priority is religion. Okay, and then culture.
Malissa Lamah
5:35
That's good. Okay. Um, this is a general question, since your family
doesn't really have your culture interfere with your religion. But do you
think there's anything that your culture/tribe that you hate? Like the
marriage thing? You know, how they just assume if their not from your
country, that they're bad is there anything that you hate from your
tribe/culture?
Dienabou M'boup 5:57
that's exactly what I hate.That. And I just hate like how like, even
though like, Islam is a big part in my family, like there's still like
those values. Like, oh yeah, you're supposed to respect obviously like, I
can respect and everything but then like it's kind of just like a mutual
you know, exchange I feel and I just feel like a lot of a lot ofparents
don't really give that I just feel like it even though like my mom she
tries her hardest to not let Islam I mean let culture get in the way of
like daily lives in Islam like she Lowkey does. And even my family back
home, like I have a lot of family back home that like I don't know that
like sometimes they see me doing stuff and I'm like, oh, why are they
doing that women shouldn't be you know, doing this or whatever and all of
a sudden, I'm just like, first of all.
Malissa Lamah 7:05
I have a good question about that too. Like feminism, but that's later on,
let's see. This is another one about like your upbringing. Did you always
study Islam? How did you grow interest into the religion? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup 7:19
No, I started in like my junior year. Because up until I started wearing
Hijab my junior year to up until junior year, I wasn't really like,
practicing. I think my mom, I think when my mom started, like my mom
started and then like, I don't, honestly, I couldn't really exactly tell
you why, but I kind of just did. I kind of just started practicing. I
started being interested in my religion. I started you know, like, I think
just like, I started it was step by step for me. It was like, Yeah, baby
steps and like, I don't know, I kind of grew into it. So I think my mom
had a big influence on it because she She started practicing but she never
started really practice. She never really practiced when she was younger
either. So, we weren't really brought up practicing. Like, like I said, we
knew were Muslim. Like we would go to like Eid prayers and everything. And
then, Like, you know, but then like, Islam wasn't really present in my
life until junior year. What was the question again?
Malissa Lamah 8:23
the other one? How did you start to grow interest?
Dienabou M'boup 8:25
Yeah, I think I just I just did Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 8:29
yeah . When did you start wearing the Hijab?
Dienabou M'boup 8:32
Yeah, Junior year. Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 8:36
Let's see. What did you start getting like used to wearing it and like
dressing modest and everything? Was there ever a transition?
Dienabou M'boup 8:43
Yes. So I remember the first day I wore my hijab. It was so scary like, it
was okay. So I lived in Blaine. And then literally the summer I moved to
Champlin Brooklyn Park. I I started wearing the hijab but then I worked.
So I started waiting in the summer and then the first day of school, I was
scared, right? I was super scared. I was like, I don't know how it's gonna
be. I don't know what I'm gonna do and My brother went to school with me
that time so he was a senior and I was a junior, but he wanted to go that
the first day of school he said he wanted to go do like open gym or
whatever i'm like? On my first day of school? He's like, so he left me
right. And I wanted to go to school with him. So like, I felt a sense so I
could feel like comforted like a sense of comfort or like, you know, like
I like feel ease or whatever. But he left me so I remembered I cried. Cuz
I was scared Yeah, I was super scared. And then I went to school and like,
it wasn't as bad as I thought at all. Like, it was like my bad. It was
like, it was it was like normal. Like, I felt like it was like I, I just
remember saying this is not even that bad like I wore it and I went
through it. That very year I like transition into like wearing like, like
more and more and more modest and like I really felt comfortable I really
was like, Look, I'm doing this I'm not doing this for anybody like, like
society nowadays, it's like you have to look a certain way you have to
conform into like society and like, all of that stuff, but I like I was
like building my relationship with God. So like, that wasn't really my
concern, like how society viewed me and everything. So I kind of was just
like, Look, I really don't care. I'm going to do what makes me and what
makes my lord happy. So that's why
Malissa Lamah 10:39
that's very good. Why was it scary? Was it because like, you felt like
people were going to talk about you? Or get bullied
Dienabou M'boup 10:45
Yeah. And it was new. So so like. I didn't know it was new for me. I
didn't know what like I was doing I just did it was just a new experience
for me. And I guess you can say yeah, like, obviously like people Don't
have like - hijab is not like viewed like in the best way it's not like so
I guess you can say that scared me and yeah
Malissa Lamah 11:12
When you started wearing when you your first day of high school right?
Dienabou M'boup 11:17
In the summer but yes. In the summer beforeMalissa Lamah 11:19
okay did you feel like anyone looked at you differently since you started
wearing it or did your relationships stay the same?
Dienabou M'boup
11:28
It was kind of weird because I moved schools And like so I kind of like
made a new group of friends but what I will say is that I definitely from
guys got a sense of respect like yeah they definitely I got a lot more
respect from guys more like I couldn't really tell you specifically but
like they were a lot more respectful when I started wearing the Hijab I
guess you can say but like my friends Like, they would ask me, like, why
are you wearing it, whatever. And I tell them and they were like, Okay,
well, like Like I said, like in high school, like your friends aren't
really like your friends. You know what I mean? Like, they're like your
group, whatever, and they let you leave and then
Malissa Lamah 12:13
Yep, that's so true. Okay, so growing up in American- in America as a
Muslim, How was it for you? What are your, like some of your positive and
negative experiences? What did you learn and how did you How has it
changed your life?
Dienabou M'boup 12:29
Okay, so growing up as a Muslim like, like I said, I never really like it
wasn't I didn't really grow up visibly as a Muslim. But like, I guess you
can say like, later when I started wearing Hijab when people visibly know
like, I personally haven't had anything like really bad happened to me.
I've heard stories like from a lot of like close friends and like people,
but personally nothing has really happened to me. But people do say things
like, oh, like there's a lot of stereotypes. When I wear the hijab, oh,
you speak English or Where are you from? And like, Did your mom make you
wear that or your dad or your brother? Or like, I remember when I worked
at JC Penney. This lady came up to me and she was just like, oh my god,
you speak she asked me a question. And then she's like, Oh my God, your
English is so like, you speaks English so well. And I was, like, my hijab,
like, automatically makes me not able to speak English or whatever. And
like, it's very, it's a lot of ignorance with the hijab, that like a lot
of microaggression I guess you can say, comes with a Hijab. But I guess
you can say like, wearing my hijab. Sometimes like, like I remember when
like, like when some quote unquote terrorist attack happens. Or like, when
like, like, or like Donald Trump. Donald Trump's election I remember like
sometimes I do feel scared wearing the hijab. So I'm just like, Look, I
need to be cautious. I need to be safe and like sometimes like my mom even
tells me She's like, Look, you're a black Muslim and you're a woman, you
especially your hijab, like you need to be careful. That's why she's kind
of like, strict on where I where she's very lenient, but she's also pretty
strict on where I go and like making sure that I'm not out too late.
Because I'm a black Muslim woman and like all these like attacks like
there's obviously there's people out there that hate me just for - like
Yes, just for the just for the hijab. So
Malissa Lamah 14:42
did you ever feel like you were living a double life This can be like your
family.
Dienabou M'boup
Hannah Montana?
Malissa Lamah
14:47
14:48
Versus Your friend group? Yes. Or like school and your daily life?
Dienabou M'boup 14:56
Not really, not really just because Not really just because I, for me like
my values like was it especially with Islam like I always like it was in
Islam like honestly is like a honesty is a big like thing. And like I
didn't really like wanna I didn't really like like with my parents and my
friend group like I didn't really like I would always tell my mom like
where I was going or all of that but I guess you can say I live a double
life when I'm talking to white people. But I don't know if there's, like,
with my hijab? Yeah, but I guess you can say like, you have to, I guess
you didn't have my hijab as a part of it, but like, because you have to
kind of like, I feel like sometimes and I shouldn't like I feel I get mad
at my Self when I do this and I shouldn't but like sometimes I feel like I
have to make them comfortable be into like show them like that i'm i'm not
a threat because automatically in their head like oh yeah you're you know
you wear hijab can be a threat or whatever so like, showing that like,
like being extra nice being like, you know, I guess that has to do with
like me being a black woman you know what I mean? So, like the stereotypes
that are put on us I have to prove those stereotypes wrong I guess you can
say
Malissa Lamah
yes.
16:28
Dienabou M'boup 16:29
So in that aspect a little bit of a double life quote unquote
Malissa Lamah 16:32
Yeah. Going along with that aspect Do you believe that like those two
identities ever affect like your daily life at all? Like with the white
people for example, do you feel like that doesn't go along with how you
are as a person. You have to fake it?
Dienabou M'boup 16:50
Yeah, like I said making people come- Making people comfortable and being
extra nice is the big is the biggest thing because like even sometimes
when I'm on the phone or whatever I'm just like I have to you know, do my
white voice or whatever now I don't want to say white voice but like, you
know like, press I don't know you know what I mean that that voice like
you have to code switch I guess you can say. And then I and then sometimes
like I remember I was making an appointment at the hospital and then when
I went there I'm like oh my god I wonder if they're going to be like oh
wow surprise.
Malissa Lamah 17:28
Is This the same person?
Dienabou M'boup 17:29
Yeah, so sometimes so yeah.
Malissa Lamah
17:32
Okay. Did you feel comfortable saying back to school? Did you feel
comfortable practicing Islam in school? Do you ever feel out of place or
was it difficult? Like, just being yourself in school?
Dienabou M'boup 17:45
I , yes, it was a little difficult just because. Just because. Just
because like, I feel like sometimes like whenever they talked about like,
ooh 9/11 Yeah, like Just other stuff. Like I even remember that, like,
sometimes I felt like I had to be that voice or like sometimes like, or
like people will look at me or whatever, it's the same thing. Like when
would they would talk about slavery being the only black person in class.
And they all look at you because oh, they're talking about slavery so
like, I guess you can say that. And I remember when there was an attack,
like, made by people who are quote, unquote Muslim. I didn't want to call
them Muslim. But um, they like, my teacher came up to me and he, he was
like, What do you think about the attacks? Because I was the only Muslim
person or whatever. Yeah. And like, that made me feel weird. And I'm like,
I don't like I don't like the fact that like, the whole, like, the whole
idea of Islam will be put on me just because like, I'll be the only Muslim
in class or like, you know,
Malissa Lamah 18:54
yeah, that's, that makes sense. I went through the same thing. I
understand what you mean by quote unquote Muslim but can you just go into
depth about what you believe is what does that mean to you?
Dienabou M'boup 19:05
Well obvious what is what is me saying quote unquote or what does Islam
mean?
Malissa Lamah 19:09
No what Does you saying quote unquote
Dienabou M'boup 19:10
Um, I guess you can say that like, obviously the media people like
tarnishing Islam's name have ruined I guess you can say Islam and what it
is people it's kind of just like the media like puts out these things that
make you fearful of Muslims and all of this other stuff and like I hate
having to speak about it but I have to at the end of the day but like I
feel like I do it all the time but like Islam is not what the media says
in like if you feel that Islam is the way the media is the media projects
it then you're just I guess you can say an ignorant person that might be
biased but it's it's it's just a Ignorance because you don't want to look
into you're not looking into what Islam is like Islam values like like I
feel like this is so overused but like one when when if you kill a person
it's as if you kill the Prophet I think said it but if you kill a person
is as if you kill all of humanity and if you actually I don't quote me I
don't know where it's from Islam it's in the Quran and if you help one
person as if you save a life it's as if you save a whole humanity and then
people bring up light like text like in the Quran it says, oh, because
there are texts in the Quran that say oh what does it kill them where you
find them and that text with the Quran? It the Quran didn't not come down
In one` book it came as parts and certain certain whatchamacallit like
certain certain at like certain instances certain time not it's in the
same time period but like over the course of like I think it was like 25
years yeah yep 25 years up until the from the time that Prophet got his
revelation to the time when he died the Quran like came in pieces and then
it was put together so like different times were different verses came
down where it was needed. So that verse specifically was and also with the
Quran and you have to the Quran you can't take one verse and be like okay
that's what it means you can't take it as face value. That's why in Islam
it says seek knowledge. Islam says seek knowledge Islam says read like,
like learn like the importance of knowledge is there. So is important to
learn why the verses the certain verses came down Why can't why why was
there so like, that verse was like for for they were in war and like they
were being persecuted they were being. So there's a lot of context to it.
You can't take one verse and then twist it. It's like twisting someone's
word you can't take so you can't take like from a speech and then take one
you know one quote from a speech and then like, you're going to hear the
whole speech especially like a verse like that.
Malissa Lamah 22:30
Okay Do you believe that from what you just said, Do you believe that's
why Islam is looked in a negative way because of people just
misinterpreting the texts
Dienabou M'boup 22:42
yeah 100% the media I honestly don't know I couldn't tell you why. I guess
you can say it's cause because people are minorities and like, I don't
know. It's a I don't know honestly don't know why but like, obviously
people, they don't want us to be great, they don't want Muslims to be
great I don't know so obviously there's going to be those those haters
there's going to be those like if the media Yeah, ignorant people if the
media makes it puts Islam into a certain light, obviously people are going
to believe it. Yeah. If the only way that people are learning from Islam
is Fox News or like, see it, you know?Then obviously you're gonna be
you're gonna be ignorant you're gonna be you know,
Malissa Lamah 23:26
yeah, cuz media does play a big part when it comes to situations like this
Okay, so back to life. One thing I had an issue growing up with was my
experience with like, African Americans versus Africans. I really want to
touch upon that. Although we're both like black
Dienabou M'boup
and black.
23:47
Malissa Lamah 23:48
Yeah. both black and some of them are Muslim. so we both Muslim. Why is it
that we aren't able to like coexist all the time with black americans?
Dienabou M'boup 23:55
That is a good question. I think that's just that is a very good question.
I think that's just like, people. It's ignorance and like, even like, even
like our very own parents be saying, like, and it is all sad. And even
sometimes we fall into it too. But it's kind of just like, I think that's
just like a sense of like, we're comfortable with our own culture, and we
think we're better. It's just like, it's definitely a culture thing. Like,
that's why that's where tribal tribalism comes from. That's where racism
is from. It's just I think, I guess you can say people thinking that
they're better than a certain type of, you know, certain yeah
Malissa Lamah 24:38
so yeah, people just thinking that they're better and everything. Did you
ever experience like, bullying like, I don't know, for for me personally.
Reason why growing up. I didn't like black Americans was because I used to
get bullied by them a lot. And I felt like at my elementary school, they
should have been my friends since we're both black. Yeah. They used to
call me African booty scratcher.
Dienabou M'boup
Yeah. Same Same
24:59
Malissa Lamah 25:00
Did you ever have? Yeah, Have you ever been situation like that or
anything else that made you to not like, not like them or think
differently of them.
Dienabou M'boup 25:08
Not even not like them. But like, obviously like, I remember I would have
friends. I'd be like, Oh yeah, I'm not African. I'm like black American.
I'm not African. I'm black or whatever. Now that will obviously like pissn
me off. But like, I guess you can say me wearing the hijab. Like it's
different because people automatically associate hijab with Somali. So I
get called Somali a lot and it pisses me off. And I remember one time I
was at, I was at I was at my community I was at North Hennepin. And they
had like this African they had like this club thing and the African
African club table there were the club was tabling, right. The African
table was playing African music, me or West African music me I'm obviously
what from West Africa, yeah. This Liberian girl told me I forgot what I
said. And she said, You're not West African. And I was like, holdup,
holdup Back up First of all Senegal is even more West than Liberia.
Senegal is even more Guinea is even more West than Liberia? How can you
tell me just because of my Hijab? Yeah, that I'm not that I'm West
African. So that was really, it really annoyed me that like, my West
African identity was being erased because, yes, because of my hijab, but
even but I am because of my hijab it's because of her ignorance, you know?
And like, yeah, that really pissed me off. What else? I'm, like I said,
I've had a lot of instances where people are like, oh, Are you Somali? Are
you? Are you like West Africans can't be Muslim or wear hijab or whatever.
I remember my cousin even told me oh yeah you dress like a somali or
whatever, I'm like man, I just wear my hijab and I cover okay.
Malissa Lamah 26:29
I'm, just living life. But yeah, that's people can be very ignorant when
they see like, a lot of people when they see the hijab they just associate
with Somalia or East Africans in general which is they change that
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
Malissa Lamah
27:24
27:24
But let's see next question. Does the culture division affect your life?
Oh, okay, so this is connecting back to the black versus black question.
Does this cultural division affect your life any shape or form like do you
feel like because you're West African you can't hang out with these type
of people. These are people don't want to be friends with you because
you're West African
Dienabou M'boup 27:48
sometimes, black Americans sometimes just because I don't know. I feel
like I have to act a certain way or whatever and like it's annoying
because it's just annoying because he is like, you can't be like who you
are. But then like, honestly, I'm a I'm a friendly person. I don't care
who you are, regardless of your race where you're from anything.
Malissa Lamah 28:15
Okay, so now we just continue up the first part of this next question is,
have you had any bad experience or been targeted for being African and/or
Muslim? This can be like stereotypes or micro aggressions at all.
Dienabou M'boup 28:31
like, I've just, like I said, I haven't experienced like, anything bad.
Yeah, but like, I I'll microaggressions I go through it every day. Like I
said, people thinking that I people think that I don't know how to speak
English, or like people like, like, in class, people mistaking me for
like, another hijabi or like, you know, so like, yeah, and people just
asking me like, stupid question. Seems like me being African or whatever.
Have you ever seen a lion? I think every I think every African has
experienced this
Malissa Lamah
Yeah I have,
29:10
Dienabou M'boup 29:11
or like everyone overcome continent of Africa that has moved here. people
asking me if I speak African people asking me if I know another African so
I guess you can say my microaggression I've had a lot more microaggression
on me being African once I know that I'm African or whatever. Yeah. But
um, me being a hijabi people thinking that I don't speak English. I like
(indecipherable) If people I remember. I remember. This girl asked me
She's like, so why do you wear that? Does your dad make you wear it or
whatever? I like, you know, they just asked me like, specifically if my
dad makes me Me, me makes me wear it or whatever. And I'm like,yeah, and
like, Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 29:54
Why do you think like they think that way. What do you think that people
ask you about that?
Dienabou M'boup 29:57
Like I said stereotypes? There's a stereotype That's been put on Islam the
stereotypes that have been Yeah, just just stereotypes Really That's
literally what it is. From the media from. Yeah, media.
Malissa Lamah
30:16
Oh Media, How does your family feel about once again black Americans or
like not your from your tribe? Do they dislike them? Do they like them? Or
do they just not care?
Dienabou M'boup 30:28
They don't care and my parents are very family friendly. Like, my my
brother isn't like hangs out with alot of East Africans, like all his
friends are East Africans. I think he's eventually gonna marry an East
African. I know right. And then, also, like for me, like I said, I was
saying before before my mom called like, I'm a very friendly person. Like,
if you come if you come to me and you're cool or whatever, I will be cool
with you. If you expect you if you respect that fact that I wear a hijab
if you respect that I'm Muslim if you respect that like like you just
respect me and I don't like conflict i'm not i'm not gonna I'm not going
to like not like you because you're a certain race
Malissa Lamah
yeah
31:16
Dienabou M'boup 31:18
sometimes I do sometimes I am that way with some like non POC yeah or
whatever and just because they made me kind of uncomfortable but like
other than that like I like I'm friendly but like so like i like i said i
have a very diverse friend group I have friends from our from Asian
friends likes like Southern South Asian friends. I have East African
friends I have West African friends. I have South American friends I have
like friends all over.
Malissa Lamah 31:48
Yeah, it's good to have a diverse friend group
Dienabou M'boup 31:50
Yeah. So if you accept me, I'll accept you.
Malissa Lamah 31:53
Okay. Let's see from your, friend group Have you learned anything about
them that really interests you at all?
Dienabou M'boup 32:01
like, I guess you say like learning for me. I really like learning other
cultures. That's why in Global Studies that's why My major is Global
studies more global health but like, it's pretty interesting like learning
like, because my friends a lot of my friends are more Ethiopian then so I
have a lot of Ethiopian friends and learning like just their culture, how
they do their weddings I've been I've been to like a lot of East or Oromo
Ethiopian red-weddings. Just seeing how they do it, seeing how seeing the
similarities and like how we do it, seeing how they practice Islam, seeing
how just seeing all of that is really really cool. yeah, yeah,
Malissa Lamah 32:42
okay. Do you think that culture makes us important in life?
Dienabou M'boup
32:45
Yeah. 100% because it makes you very, it makes you an open minded person.
It makes you it just makes you just, I guess you could say yeah, makes you
more open minded and not ignorant. I think it's really important to learn
other people's cultures. And it gives a sense of understanding it takes
away arrogance of like your own culture.
Unknown Speaker 33:11
Yeah. Okay. Let's see.
Malissa Lamah 33:15
Do you know any from on top of your head Do you know any differences
between Islam now and Islam from like previous generations? So like, let's
talk about like teenagers how we act now and how you think our parents
acted when they were teenagers?
Dienabou M'boup 33:30
Ooooh. Okay, so I think it's different for like, I don't know how it is
for like East Africans, but like West Africa. I think like I said. I don't
know it's kind of that's it's kind of this kind of a hard question just
because a lot of our parents didn't really even especially my friends.
They didn't try. Like they obviously their parents were like religious
like my grandfather. Both grandfathers are really religious and like, They
both they both like value Islam, but my parents grew up, they grew up in
like a culture where like, we went out they had fun. You know, like when
you're young, you want to have fun. You want to experience things. And
like, and it's also different to it from like Guinea and Senegal, because
I guess you can say Guinea is a less religious country Senegal, like
Senegal like Islam is a really big part.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
34:24
Dienabou M'boup 34:25
it's a it has a bigger I guess you can say presence than it does in
Guinea. So I guess you can say the way that they grew up was kind of
different. So they had it, like they had their values, like the Islamic
values, but I guess you could say their actions kind of, I guess you could
say contradict the values, I guess.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
34:41
Dienabou M'boup 34:41
But like they had it held an importance and I think that was, I guess you
could say I think that's for both of them. Like, I guess you can say now,
it's kind of the same but I think like with the rise of like, atheism, and
like philosophy and all that, I guess you can say that's why it's
different now.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
Dienabou M'boup
34:57
34:57
like a lot of different ideals and like Different ways of thinking and
all of that. And I think that also the way that they grew up like they
grew up in a in a society where like Islam was there and like they knew
that Islam was there even though they didn't practice they knew the
importance of Islam, but I guess you can say here the ideal is that like
you're kind of a free thinker and they see like a lot of like society. I'm
not gonna say a lot of society doesn't agree with Islam but a lot of I
guess you can say that I can I guess you can say that. Islam is like like
I guess like stuff that I guess you can say don't agree with Islam is like
a glorified and like beautified I guess you can say like drinking smoking,
like it's big, like, a lot of people do it. So like, they're obviously
going to question and they were like, why doesn't my religion do this? You
know what I mean? So, yeah, I guess you could say that aspect is there.
Malissa Lamah 36:00
Okay, talking about drinking and smoking and all of that that that's a
great input because next question is also about it, have you seen like
changes of I learned this in class on campus versus at home? A lot of kids
in Islam when they move on campus, they have this sense of freedom and
they start acting
(incoherent)
differently. They were the hijab, but it's still party every night and
drink. So have you seen that at all? Like, since you started college
Dienabou M'boup 36:28
for me, no, yeah, because I before college, I had, I started practicing
and I like my parent- even though like my mom had an influence on me
practicing for me my values and everything. I feared God than I fear my
more than I fear my mom like so those obviously like I'm like, my mom is
obviously like I'm not perfect. I still do stuff but then what I'm saying
is like I for for me from the get go. I didn't want to Dorm. Cause I knew
that I didn't want to be around like, all that, honestly, it would be a
fun experience. Like when I was younger Oh my God, I wanted to dorm. But I
was just like, Look, I'm not trying to be around influence because I know
mys`elf and I know I'm, I'm a very influence, I can get very influenced.
I'm not a person that like, you know, I'm very success- susceptible I
guess you can say to peer pressure and all of that. So like, I'm not
staying on campus. For me, like I said, For me personally, but I know so
many people that have those went wild when they got their freedom. Yeah,
I'm here like, my parents and I here so guess what? But for me, it's not
even that my parents are not here. It's like, God is always watching me
you know mean and that's what scares me. You know what I mean? So,
Malissa Lamah 37:50
yeah, that is a big issue. I've noticed that too, in college that a lot of
people just have that sense of freedom
Dienabou M'boup 37:55
go wild, because and it's cuz and it's because and
it on the parents just because the parents kind of
I guess you can say like, if you don't do this, if
mad or if they don't really teach you, why are you
I also Do kind of blame
blame like, made Islam,
you do this God will be
practicing? They don't
teach you. Like, why is the importance of Islam in people's life they just
teach you this is haram. This is haram this is not haram. You know what I
mean? Like, and the word Haram is thrown around like, so, you know, like,
I don't know. So all of that, I guess you can say and then. Yeah, I forgot
what I was going to say, so. Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 38:37
yeah. Parents don't teach like they just teach this surface level, they
don't into depth
Dienabou M'boup 38:41
surface level and then when, they exactly and then when they get to, when
they get to college, they're like, they. So they fear their parents more
then when they do that. They fear their parents more than they fear God
and they didn't really build that relationship that was needed when they
were younger, so they could like have those morals and have those like
boundaries when they get to college. So they're just like, Look, my mom's
not here. I'm not about to get in trouble or whatever, cuz they associated
like when I do something back when I do- when I did something back then I
got in trouble with my parents I didn't see anything or God or whatever,
you know. So then likely Yeah, now they're like, Look, I'm gonna do this.
You know?
Malissa Lamah 39:24
Yeah. Okay, so let me see this is going back to like West Africans and
East Africans. Do you feel like West African Muslims and East Africa
Muslims and any other like, type of people lack connection?
Dienabou M'boup 39:43
Sometimes Yes. But like I said, a lot of my friends are, yeah, East
African. But like, one thing is like that, like sometimes that like, I
just feel like people forget. I just don't like the erasure of Islam, the
presence of Islam in West Africa, like there are a lot of Muslims in West
Africa and it's annoying because like I said, people question if people
have been asked if I converted, I've been asked if, and like I said, it's
like, microaggression it's just like, it's irritating. No hearing that
constantly hearing all of that. It's like, when people don't when people
don't realize that, like, they're like, you're not the only muslim in the
world, You're not the only Muslim country in the world, you know, I mean,
like, most of us, Guinea and my Guinea and Senegal, Guinea is a, I think,
like 90-80 something 87% Muslim and Senegal and 90, like a 2% Muslim
country, like, I probably am, like, really off on those numbers, but it's
in those percentiles, like it's really high in both countries. The
presence of Islam, so.
Malissa Lamah 40:58
Okay. Have you ever felt tempted or wanted, like to do something, but you
can't because of your religion?
Dienabou M'boup 41:05
Yes, but that's part I guess you can say that. For me. I know that's part
of the religion. Like I know that's part I like
Malissa Lamah
41:12
temptations yeah
Dienabou M'boup 41:13
Yeah, temptations like obviously like, say you're on a on a diet or
whatever, like you're obviously gonna be tempted to do, you know, just
because I'm tempted to do something doesn't mean is good for me like
there's a quote in a Islam just because just because you want something
doesn't mean it's good, or something that you want might not be good for
you.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
41:13
Dienabou M'boup 41:32
and something that you don't want might be what's good for you. So like,
I'm not so it doesn't really bother me like obviously like sometimes like
when I'd be like, Oh, I want to do like my hair or whatever I want to do
like, you know, like I used to wear I used to wear a lot of weave girl.
And I tell you I when I say I miss it,
Malissa Lamah
ooh,
41:51
Dienabou M'boup 41:51
I miss it. I miss it. Yeah, so like obviously that and like, I guess you
can say not like major things like Oh, and obviously like, not like major
things like smoking and drinking like those stuff never even back then
when I didn't practice I thought it was disgusting. Yeah, even though it's
all around me I thought it was disgusting. And I thank God because like I
said, I'm a very influential person, like if I was even started so I guess
to say to say all of that. So, for me, it wasn't really that big of a deal
that I that I was tempted because I knew like, I know that I'm being re-.
I'm being re- in Islam, you're rewarded for for something. So say you want
to do like, say a sin like you're rewarded for not doing the sin that you
wanted to do.
Malissa Lamah 42:43
Yeah, thats true.
Dienabou M'boup 42:44
That's why I really didn't trip about it
Malissa Lamah 42:47
Okay, next one. Did you ever want to take your hijab off or not want to
keep it on? Or why didn't you take it off?
Dienabou M'boup 42:56
Very briefly. Just because, I'm sorry the sun is in my face. Very briefly
just because like I said, having certain hairstyle like, Oh, yeah Ugh I
want it I wish I can get you know like 30 inches you know 40 whatever, all
of that, like, I wish it but then like, what helped me what let me what
had me what helped me keep it on is like, my love for God and like knowing
that like for me with Islam I just I know that the world hasn't done me
the world hasn't been the best to me is like the world is very corrupt
there's a lot of like chaos society is not the best and so I know that
like if there's for me it's like if, like if I can't if I can't if society
and all this stuff won't make me happy. Like I know truly in I've
experienced that like, for me, God has made me really happy. Like,
whenever I've talked to him whenever I pray whenever I do all of that,
like I feel happy when I like, practice. So like, I know that like,
whenever if I took my hijab off or if I like did this then it would just
be temporary. Yes. That's what it was for me.
Malissa Lamah 44:20
That's true. Okay. And your opinion does Islam have room for feminism and
LGBTQI?
Dienabou M'boup 44:30
Okay so a two part question.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
44:32
Dienabou M'boup 44:32
Um, first part feminism. 100%. Yeah, I think feminism today is very like
skewed. I think skewed as a word. I think feminism today. The reason why
is because feminism today is like, you have choice to do what you want to
do. And being oppressed. One First of all, Islam came and this is another
topic that I hate talking about because I feel like I have to prove to
people Yeah, but Islam came down in a time where like, women had no rights
at all like they were being buried alive. They had no rights to
inheritance. They were all of that right? But then Islam came down and
said women have rights women, you know what I mean? There's a whole
there's a whole chapter in the Quran, called the surah, the third, the
third chapter? I think if I'm not mistaken, second or third chapter the
Quran is is called Surah Nisa. And that's Surah of the women. Yeah, the
whole chapter or whatever. So like, there's a whole and that's a really
long one it's long, but um, that and like also. What was I saying, also I
feel like feminism today is like, take off your hijab, but in reality
feminism is for is-Feminism really was for you to have a choice for you to
do what you want me I choose to wear my hijab. So why can't I choose to
wear my hijab? Why does me taking off my clothes? Or I like wearing less
than less. That's what feminism you know, like free the nipple or
whatever, like, why are you? Why are you at the end of the day society
wants you to wear less and less clothes at the end of the day at the end
of the day. So who's really conforming to society? Who's really being a
feminist and taking their stand and stand for their rights and who they
want to be in? who they are? I guess you can say, yeah. Oh, and LGBTQ?
Malissa Lamah 46:43
Yeah, but let's talk about the feminism. I read in class. I didn't even
think about this but we read about how some people actually, it's a,
what's the word? I don't know the word right now, but some people actually
argue about having female Imams and I actually never crossed My mind
because I'm so used to having a male imam in our culture.
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
47:03
Malissa Lamah 47:04
So what do you think? Like what's your stand on that? Do you think female
imams are allowed?
Dienabou M'boup 47:07
I've never been asked that question?
Malissa Lamah 47:08
Yeah, I never thought of that.
Dienabou M'boup 47:11
Um, I've obviously I've never been asked that question personally but I'm
obviously I've had conversations about it and I guess you can say like, a
like in a Islam. Like, I don't want to answer this question. In Islam I
guess you can say like theres roles. Yeah, you guess I guess you can say
and I guess you could say the role of the male is like, you know what I
mean, like that's how Allah made it. Yeah, I guess you can say something
like
Malissa Lamah 47:40
It's just like that. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about this Islam have room
for LG for LGBTQ
Dienabou M'boup 47:47
Oh, and back. Can I actually.
Malissa Lamah 47:49
Yeah finish it
Dienabou M'boup 47:49
So for that question too? I there's also I feel like with that people,
people have so much like Okay with that, I think that has a lot to do with
okay now I'm hot that has a lot to do with, like equality, we went well
over well over I know right? That has a lot to do with like equality and
everything and Islam at the end of the day like Islam like men and women
are created equal. They're created equal as in like, if you do a good
deed, you'll get rewarded the same. It's not like, oh, you're a woman,
you're not gonna, you're, you're a woman, like, whatever. So there's
things that men, there's things that only women get rewarded for it. And
there's things that only men get rewarded for. And that has a lot to do
with our biology. Like, women, we get we have, we have children, women, we
get our periods, women, you know what I mean? There's different things and
there's different rules. That doesn't mean that Allah doesn't view us. Or
God doesn't view us in a different way. You know what I mean, in different
positions, obviously women, it's important for women to go get educated.
It's important for men to get educated. It's important for, like, at the
end of the day, there's rules that Allah set out in that like that. Like
there's obviously there's there's differences, but we're still equal.
Malissa Lamah 49:18
Yes, understandable. Okay, now, does Islam have room for LGBTQ? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup
49:24
So for Muslims, obviously in Islam? It's not really it's loo- it. I don't
want to say it's looked down upon
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
49:36
Dienabou M'boup 49:36
It is looked down upon, and I don't even want to sugarcoat it. It is
looked down upon but that's Islam's belief at the end of the day. Islam
doesn't say that we can go terrorizes people bash these people. kill these
people like that is away from it that Islam says lankum de-Theres in a
Surah and I forgot. I think is -Its a Surah I'm blanking out but Lakum
Deenukum Waliya Deen, that means your religion is for you. My religion is
for me. Yeah. So basically you your belief is for you. And my belief is
for me, right? So, I'm gonna respect you. Right? I'm going to respect you
and what you do. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna whatchamacallit I'm not
gonna hate you for what you do. It's like drinking. I'm not say, I don't
like I'm not going to talk to you because you drink. Yeah, I'm not gonna
say because you do this, this and this. If you're like, just as you have
your belief, I have mine. I'm not asking you to pray five times a day. I'm
not asking you to believe in Islam. You know what I mean? Imma do me and
you do you you know what I mean?
Malissa Lamah 50:49
Okay, so last question. Now that you're grown up and understand Islam
better, what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life for you?
Dienabou M'boup 50:56
100% 100% obviously I have so for me Islam has Islam has - plays a big
role in the way in who I am. And that's way that's how Islam should be, I
guess you can say. But for me, it definitely has a big role. It definitely
plays a big role in who I am and like my daily things like sometimes like
I have to like find out where I need at work- place I can eat, I need to
pray, there's some aspects where I need to like, be careful about where I
need to eat. There's like different things that I need to do. So like 100%
it controls who I am and not control. That's such a bad word. That's a bad
word, but no, it influences who I am and I try to be the best muslim that
I can be. I try to be the best person that I can be. What was- What waswhat was say that question one more time?
Malissa Lamah 51:55
Let me see it was now that you've grown up and understand Islam better
what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life?
Dienabou M'boup 52:03
Yes, it's definitely a way of life because like Islam, like in the Quran
says do this, do this or do this, or whatever says Be like this Be patient
be be kind be you know, what I mean yeah they smile and all of that so
obviously I try to do those things and like, because honestly like I feel
like Islam like Islam like it's such a beautiful religion and like when I
see like people that are like devout in Islam,
Malissa Lamah
yeah
52:31
Dienabou M'boup 52:32
They are the they're the best people that I know, the best people that I
know. And like there's obviously like good people who are not Muslim, or
whatever, but then like, for me, the best people who I know and like I
wish more common like I just see like, you can just see like in the corner
and it just tells you it just literally the Qur'an is like a book to like,
the way you should live your life.So I guess you can say, that was a weird
answer, but
Malissa Lamah 53:02
it's good. You're doing good. Okay, so we're basically done with other
questions. Do you have any questions for me at all?
Dienabou M'boup 53:10
How are you liking the class?
Malissa Lamah 53:11
It's good, It's really good class. It's fun. I have to finish this and
give a presentation about it. Okay, I'm so glad you could help me. Thank
you so much. And yeah, that's it. Yay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is November 10 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims and Minnesota project for Oxford University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim senior citizens in the Muslim community in the state
of Minnesota. His name is Dr. Mohammed Fathi Ibrahim Kamsheh.
Go... Show more
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is November 10 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims and Minnesota project for Oxford University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim senior citizens in the Muslim community in the state
of Minnesota. His name is Dr. Mohammed Fathi Ibrahim Kamsheh.
Good afternoon, Doctor, how are you today?
Mohammed 0:24
Good afternoon and fine. Thank you.
May Kamsheh 0:28
Would you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you?
Mohammed 0:33
Yes, of course. My name is Mohammed Fathi Ibrahim Kamsheh. I was born
in the city of Damascus in Syria in 1943. Grew up in Damascus and the
suburb of Damascus. I went to Elementary School in the city of
Damascus, and then to the middle school and then graduated from high
school in 1962. And then attended medical school at the University of
Damascus graduated in the year 1969. After graduation, I attended an
exam at the embassy at the American Embassy in Beirut because our
embassy was closed at that time we were in a state of war with one of
our neighbor country, namely Israel. So because of that, and because
of the The problem with the war the embassy was closed in Damascus.
That was in 1970, the spring of 1970. And then I apply to Postgraduate
School at the state of Minnesota University and came for specialty
training in July of 1970.
May Kamsheh 2:36
So are you the first person in your family to be a doctor?
Mohammed 2:41
Yes, I was the first physician before me was my older brother who
graduated four years before me from dental school. So he was ahead of
me in healthcare and he was practicing dentistry in the suburbs of
Damascus, then I working for a short period of time in the same
suburbs as a physician before coming to United States.
May Kamsheh 3:22
Did your brother come to the United States?
Mohammed 3:25
My brother came as a visitor close to retirement after he finished his
career. Before he retire, he came to visit me on a few different
occasions with my parents.
May Kamsheh 3:43
What were your parents like?
Mohammed 3:46
My dad was a very hard working man. He was a business man. And we come
from middle income families and my mother was a homemaker. Because of
the my unfortunate father's education was not completed because he
needed to work and earned the living. He was very concerned about our
future and he always encouraging us to achieve and advance in school.
May Kamsheh 4:29
Did you have any how many other siblings did you have?
Mohammed 4:32
I have four other brothers, two older than me and two younger than me.
I have two other sisters.
May Kamsheh 4:42
Are your sisters also younger?
Mohammed 4:45
I have two older sisters and one older one younger.
May Kamsheh 4:50
Okay. Are they still in Syria?
Mohammed 4:54
No, my older sister has passed on in Egypt after the war erupted in
Syria and Damascus, specifically in the suburbs, they were forced to
go to Egypt as a refugee. So she passed on two years ago. In Egypt, my
younger sister still live in Damascus with her husband and children
and grandchildren.
May Kamsheh 5:31
And your brothers?
Mohammed 5:33
My older brothers died seven years ago [short pause] to heart attack.
The other older brother died also [short pause], two years later. My
younger brother died with intracranial bleed. I'm sorry to say that as
a sad story, but we left with only one brother who lives now in Egypt.
So all other brothers and older sister have gone. [interupts May] Same
as my parents. Yeah.
May Kamsheh 6:16
I'm sorry to hear that. So when you came to Minnesota, were you
married?
Mohammed 6:25
Yeah. I got married just a year before graduation and we have our son,
who was born in December of 1969. When we came here, he was little bit
over seven months old, and we arrived in July of 1970. To attend. The
first hospital I attended was St. Luke's Hospital which is United
Hospital now and a year later, I started my specialty and postgraduate
training at Region Hospital used to be St. Paul Ramsey Hospital four
years and training after one year of internship. And then after I
passed my board, I worked as a obstetrician and gynecologist in the
Twin Cities with Group Health and then Health Partner for 35 years and
I have been retired now for almost 10 years.
May Kamsheh 7:42
And you enjoyed your job?
Mohammed 7:44
Very much so. I have a thank god very productive life. And I have four
children. The oldest, the one who came with us who, almost 50 years
old now he has four children. And he worked in pharmaceutical [short
pause] company [cough]. Ah the other ah children, I have a teacher who
is married and have two children. And then another very nice girl who
got married. And she lived in the suburbs of Chicago. And the younger
daughter, she decided to go into medicine and she has a degree in
neurology and subspecialty and sleep disorder. So she is neurologist
and sleep disorder specialist.
May Kamsheh 8:52
That's cool. So when you came to Minnesota, where did you did you live
in the city or in the suburbs?
Mohammed 9:01
Initially, I lived cross the street from St. Luke's Hospital, which is
United now in St. Paul. And then I lived in St. Paul for four more
years. After that, after I finished training, we move to the suburbs
of Minneapolis to Edine mainly because of the school system. And all
my children graduated from Edina High School.
May Kamsheh 9:33
Okay, so now going into how how was being a Muslim in Minnesota like
when you first came here?
Mohammed 9:43
Initially when we came here, the number of Muslims were very small,
basically some students who form Muslim Student Association. We used
to meet them at the Coffman Union at a University and there are a few
professors teaching at the University. So we used to use to gather in
the Coffman Union for Juma prayer between 1972-1973-74 and then we
were fortunate enough to have a small house on campus who converted to
a prayer place for Juma. After that 1979 we grew out of this place to
a town of Columbia height, where we're able to purchase a church
converted into a mosque in Columbia Heights and that place still now
functioning as a Muslim Muslim Worship place or Masjid. And then after
that we were able to purchase a school in Fridley. And we were able to
establish the first Islamic center of Minnesota and that school, and
we used to have a Sunday school and few years later, we were able to
establish a full time school teacher regular curriculum in addition to
Islamic history and Islamic study. And from there on, the population
grew up very much after the migration, and the refugee of the Somali
brothers and sisters. And we were fortunate to see them coming with
the knowledge of the Quran. Initially, they were 40 of them "hafez alQuran" (arabic), they were memorizing the Quran by heart and they were
able to establish many Masajid (mosques) to teach Quran and Islam and
Islam study. And later on shortly before I retired, two of our leaders
in the state of Minnesota were able to establish a small Islamic
school and it was called Islamic school [stutters] lslamic University
of Minnesota. They were teaching the Islamic Studies and they were
able to to graduate few students initially, and then the number grew
up to the point that they were very well attended. And many
organization came to the Twin Cities including MASS and and their
leaders were very active in promoting Islam and going on to present
slam to high school and to churches and they were very much active in
introduce Islam, the true Islam, to the communities in the Twin Cities
and Minnesota at large. And thank God To have some organization like
this, to let the people know that Islam is not what the media
sometimes project and not what the some people who claim that they are
Muslim with their bad behavior calling themselves Muslim, but they are
not projecting any of the Islamic manners and behavior.
May Kamsheh 14:30
So were you part of the organization that started the school and other
mosques around here?
Mohammed 14:37
I was fortunate to be able to teach on Sunday school, some of the
students in Columbia Hights and then at the school in Fridley. And I
was fortunate to continue teaching Islam and Quran and Islamic studies
for almost 30 years. During my career, mainly Saturday and Sunday, and
I was trying to do my best in addition to my practice in medicine, to
be helpful to other organization that they just trying to establish
themself in different Islamic centers and Masajids it in the Twin
Cities.
May Kamsheh 15:26
So how was it working, being a teacher and handling your life all here
all like?
Mohammed 15:34
Was very exciting. I was very happy to be able to practice my
profession efficiently and able to introduce my kids to Islam and take
them to Quranic studies every Friday night and to Sunday school, every
weekend, Saturday and Sunday. So it was it was very exciting and
productive life. I was fortunate.
May Kamsheh 16:01
That's good. So how old were the kids that you taught?
Mohammed 16:07
We taught kids from grade school to middle school to high school. Some
of the children who were in grade school, they are very productive
citizens now, in the Twin Cities and in the nation, some of them are
doctors and lawyers and engineers, and they were very good member of
the society.
May Kamsheh 16:38
Okay, so back to your childhood, have you so you memorize the Quran?
Mohammed 16:46
Well I memorize some of the small Suras in the Quran as growing up as
part of our teaching, but I wasn't able to memorize the whole course
until I retired, after I retired, I attended the Islamic University of
Minnesota and I was able to complete my study in Islamic Studies and
able to earn a master's degree. And after that I attended the faculty
at the Islamic University and thought some of the students there for a
few years.
May Kamsheh 17:29
Okay, so what was that like?
Mohammed 17:34
[Laughs] It was a very a very interesting, very challenging and thank
God for our leaders and their children. They were very helpful to help
us accomplish our mission. We were able to communicate well with other
leaders. leadership of other religions in the Twin Cities. I was
invited a few years ago to St. Thomas University to attend dialogue.
And between the Christian, the Jewish community, and the Muslims, and
this can discuss different aspect of subjects and was very interesting
and very enlightened by other communities leaders. And in addition to
that, you know, we presented Islam and throughout the years because
every time there is a conflict in the Middle East, we were invited to
different churches and different community to give a little bit
information about what's happening. Why The fighting is going on
between the Sunni and Shia, why the problem and the Middle East been
not stable for a number of years. We like to go back to basics go back
to the true Islam that our Muslim communities should present the true
spirit of the Quran and the true spirit of the tradition of life of
Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam which was based basically
on peace and justice and tranquility, not a war and terror and
terrorism has been projected by some people who know or know very
little levels of Islam or know nothing about Islam because of their
background.
May Kamsheh 20:04
Yeah, I agree. So after you did that, when did you become Imam?
Mohammed
20:13
[Laughs] It is interesting. I don't call myself Imam. I call myself a
student of Islam, a student of Quran. And I am shy to call myself a
man because I don't really feel that I have the quality and the
qualification to be Imam. Imam should be behaving and acting just like
what the prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam did. So up until
now I consider myself the student of Quran and Islam and I still
attend sessions in studying the Quran and studying the tradition of
Mohammed sallallahu alaihi wasallam and studying the history of Islam
occasionally I'd been filling as Imam in some of the Masajids that we
don't have Imam in it yet and I deliver sometimes Juma prayer in
different Masajids in the Twin Cities.
May Kamsheh 21:29
Okay what's what's that like? You do that every Friday?
Mohammed 21:34
Yeah, we do that you know on the Friday congregational prayers, at
Duhr time which is noon time and it is very refreshing to see people
coming to the Masajid and every once in a while we see some of the new
Muslims come to declare Islam after a number of years of searching
about the true God and true religion, and they come from all facts of
life, to declare Islam and we hope that we will continue to help them
reach their goal, and then their new venture of life.
May Kamsheh 22:29
So have you been like a witness or helped someone convert in the
mosque to Islam?
Mohammed 22:36
I like to think so. I attended some of these ceremonies and I
participate in some of them. And I hope that God will help me to
continue to do that.
May Kamsheh 22:50
Okay. Have you have you ever written a book?
Mohammed 22:57
Yeah, I..As a part of my postgraduate study in the Islamic University,
my thesis was the practice of medicine in the light of Islamic
religion. So I was able to write my thesis and then I made it as a
bookwith the title, The Practice of Islam in the Light of ahh "The
Practice of Medicine in the Light of Islam", and it is about 200 pages
booklet and unfortunately, was in Arabic all in Arabic and I wasn't
able to translate it yet but hopefully time will come to translated
into English.
May Kamsheh 23:58
Okay, do you still do like sell that, sell the books to anyone or?
Mohammed
24:02
No, the book is is basically given to the Masajid to be distributed to
the people who are interested in knowing a little bit about medicine
and Islam and the books the book is free and was given to the Masajid
as a free some of the Masajid presented the book as for donation so
they can have the book with for little nominal donation to the Masjid.
May Kamsheh 24:40
Okay, nice. So how do you see the future of Islam in Minnesota?
Mohammed 24:55
I like to see the future of Islam in Minnesota to grow by doing more
of interfaith meeting with our Christians brothers and our cousins in
the Jewish community. I like to see us living in harmony and living in
peace, because all these sections of faith, believe in the same God
and like to live in peace and the raised children in peace and raise
their children as a Muslim as Christian as a Jewish with the value of
Christianity and Jewish and Islamic tradition. In addition to the
interfaith dialogue, I like to see more of our Muslim involved in the
Muslim community itself to branch out and reach out to the Christian
and Jewish population so they know Islam better and build the bridges
of communication so they will be able to achieve their goals in life.
May Kamsheh 26:33
How do you think that will be accomplished?
Mohammed 26:37
By basically knowing each other more the the more ignorance get into
our communities and not able to communicate well the worse it will get
and the more we communicate with each other and know each others will
be able to reach very productive, peaceful solution because we are all
in it together, we are all want to raise our family and live in peace
and harmony and be able to worship comfortably and freely. And we hope
that God Almighty will be with us all.
May Kamsheh 27:31
So looking back at when you first came to the United States, how how
is it different now? The Muslim community and your life in general.
Mohammed 27:42
It is obviously much better because we are in a bigger number. However
the big number is not doesn't really amount too much. I like with the
numbers increasing to have the awareness increase and the value
increase and the high moral conduct to be the one that we are after.
So, in the Twin Cities, we grew up from small numbers that you can
count them between 50 to 100 to almost 250,000 of member of the Muslim
communities in the state of Minnesota. And from one small house as
prayer place now to a 40 place to worship 40 Masjid in the Twin
Cities. The number has to be associated with production of moral and
production of good behavior and production of A good citizen of the
state and the United States.
May Kamsheh 29:05
So how do you see the Muslim community future in Minnesota?
Mohammed 29:11
I'm hoping that the Muslim community as they raise their children have
been holding tight on their principles and not to melt in the in the
general society without identity. I like the Muslim to hold on their
identity as the Muslims behave as a Muslim, to study the Quran and
study the tradition and the life of the Prophet Muhammad sallallahu
alaihi wasallam. I like the children growing up in a Muslim community
to be close to their religion because what I know from the Quran and
Islam and the the life of the Prophet Mohammed much more than my
children and they know more than their children. So I like to have
this awareness and this knowledge to be transmitted from us to the
children and from their to their children and to generation to come,
because we have a very rich religion in faith, in moral, and in good
behavior.
May Kamsheh 30:37
So do you expect it to keep growing over the years?
Mohammed 30:41
Why I sure hope so. I like to see Muslim communities get together,
unify their heart and mind and I like them to continue to communicate
with other part of the communities in this state and the United
States.
May Kamsheh 31:07
Dr. Mohammed, is there anything else you'd like to say as your final
words?
Mohammed 31:14
I like to thank you very much for the opportunity that you have given
me to speak about myself, and my community and my religion. And I hope
that God will help me to be a better person and to help my children to
learn and know Islam and Quran, and they do their job to teach their
children to know more about Islam and the men and the life of the
Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alaihi wasallam.
May Kamsheh 31:54
Thank you for your time, Dr. Mohammed. I really appreciate it.
Mohammed 31:58
Thank you very much. Hope to see you again.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less