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Title: Oral History Interview with Reies Romero, 2019
Collection: Augsburg Centennial Oral Histories

Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Mahamed Salad, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Yousra Mohamed 0:00 My name is Mr. Mohammed today's Sunday December 8. I am a historian this project. Today we are here at Augsburg University and I'm here with Mahamed Salad. Can you just introduce yourself real quick say your name and when you were born? mahamed salad 0:13 Uh, wassup guys...
Show more Yousra Mohamed 0:00 My name is Mr. Mohammed today's Sunday December 8. I am a historian this project. Today we are here at Augsburg University and I'm here with Mahamed Salad. Can you just introduce yourself real quick say your name and when you were born? mahamed salad 0:13 Uh, wassup guys, my name is Mohammed Salad. I was born on December 6 1999. Yousra Mohamed 0:19 Um, what is your major and what-what year are you here at Augsburg? mahamed salad 0:24 So I'm a second year here at Augsburg and my major is political science with a minor in religion. Yousra Mohamed 0:29 Okay. So your major, what made you go into that? Yousra Mohamed 0:32 And what do you plan on doing with that major mahamed salad 0:35 political science? I think, as we're going to find out later in the interview, a majority of my life is considerably very political considering that I'm a Muslim, an immigrant was like not born in this country. So a lot of the things that sort of build my character is very politically charged. And religion. I think, if you understand a lot of people's religions, you also understand why they do things. So Those two sort of things would kind of help me shape how I want to go on with my life. I don't really think my degrees necessarily going to dictate what sort of job I get into. But I do hope to like go into the UN and help people as much as I can as well. Yousra Mohamed so 1:15 Yousra Mohamed 1:17 How has your experience been? Since you're- Are you a first generation student? mahamed salad 1:23 Yeah. So yeah, my both my parents didn't graduate from high school. So I'm on the first one doing it. Yousra Mohamed 1:30 Okay, so how has your experience at Augsburg been since you're the first generation college student? mahamed salad 1:34 Um, so my experience with Augsburg started before I was actually a student at Augsburg, so I live just like I grew up just down the street from Ausburg in the cedar side community. And I would visit Ausburg a lot. It was sort of the- sort of like it was sort of the hallmark of success for us, like, you came to Augsburg, you kind of like as quote unquote, made it out the hood and things like that. So we would come down here on school visits, field trips, we would do workshops with some of the students and professors, we played a lot of our basketball and football tournaments on the field or inside the gym. So I had a really good connection with Augsburg before I came here. Um, throughout high school, I was recruited by the cross country team here. So and I liked the classes and I like the students, not the students (haha), I liked some of the students. I knew them before. But I liked the faculty here very, very much. And I liked the environment here a lot. So I wanted to come here because of that. Yousra Mohamed 2:30 Okay, so you said you ran track. So do you currently still play track? Or run track? mahamed salad 2:35 Yeah, I still run track. I no longer r un cross country because of like a lot of work confliction and things like that, but I still run track and enjoy it very much and I'm excited for the season start. Yousra Mohamed 2:46 Oh, what- are you like involved in any other sports here at Augsburg? mahamed salad 2:50 Um, no, I did play a lot of sports in high school. I played basketball, football, and I ran cross country and track as well. Yousra Mohamed 2:58 So um, moving on. So, where were you born? And can you explain how your life was growing up? Yousra Mohamed 3:05 Or just your family life in general? mahamed salad 3:08 Um, so I think what I often tell people is like the first five years of my life are probably more complicated than most people's. So I was born in Ethiopia, Addis Ababa, which is a neighboring country, the capital city of the neighboring country that I'm ethnically from, which is Somalia. So I'm ethnically a Somali but I was born in Ethiopia. And the reasoning behind that is both my parents fled to Ethiopia because of the Civil War and a lot of the things happening in Somalia and the distress that was happening. So as I grew up in Ethiopia, I also traveled so I traveled to South Sudan, what is currently South Sudan. As a very young kid, I traveled around Ethiopia and I traveled back to Somalia and the reason I traveled back to my is because my father came back (to America) in 2000. So I was born in '99. My father came back to the US in 2000. And, and to 2003, my mother was awarded, like a visa or like a stay in the US. So she didn't have no choice but to leave me. So I was flown out to Somalia to stay with my family, my extended family there. So my mother's parents. And that's like the very first sort of memories I have of like the nomadic life in Somalia and just like following sheep and camel and other cattle around and things like that. And then eventually what happened was, I was finally awarded citizenship because my parents figuring out their documents in the US, I was awarded citizenship in America. And there was really nobody to bring me here. So what my parents did was they found somebody that was on the flight to the United States. And they just told me to tag along with that person, they gave me a briefcase that had all my information in it and a letter that sort of described like, where I was going, where I came from, who I was with and all those things just in case I got lost and Yousra Mohamed 4:56 Did you know English at this time? mahamed salad 4:58 I knew a little bit like how to say 'How are you', 'Howr'e you doing?' 'I want to go here' 'Where's the bathroom', but I wasn't very fluent in it and and the majority of it was from like cartoons that I watched TV, but I didn't know very much English. And when I got to the airport in New York the JFK Airport, my parents just picked me up from there. And then we stayed in New York for about six months. And then we we settled in the cedar-riverside neighborhood and we've been there for the past 16-17 years. Yousra Mohamed 5:26 okay, so how would you explain your life growing up like, from then until now? mahamed salad 5:31 So from about when I was five until now, I would say in the beginning of it, it was it was difficult in the sense that for anybody that really didn't speak the languages, it's just coming up in a to a new environment. I remember the very first day that I came to Minnesota like it was snowing and it's just everything different happened in one day. It was snowing, it was cold. There was football on TV. I didn't know what any of that was, but I was expected to just catch up. You know, like most, most people when they come to America, they're isn't really like a period where people allow you and explain things just like you got to understand or you get left behind. And the one thing that I do remember is my mom, she gave me rice, and rice is like a staple food around the world. So I knew what rice was. But when she gave me the rice, she put ranch on my rice. And I didn't know a ranch was I thought she was putting milk on my rice, so that kind of frustrated me. And yeah, so there's a lot of those dietary things and also the language barrier. I remember going to school and not really understanding what anybody was saying to me. A lot teachers were frustrated with me because they thought like, I wasn't listening or things like that. Um, but as I grew older, I was- realized that athletics and sports really kept me out of trouble. I really grew up in a neighborhood that like is very beautiful. I think 90% of it is beautiful. I think people overlook how beautiful and how vibrant and how, how much of a cultural hub the cedar-riverside neighborhood is. And they really just focus on like the gun violence and the drugs and the different things that happened in any impoverished neighborhood, but I had a special surprising amount of freedom for a kid growing up there, both of my parents worked. So my dad left at 10, my mom left around that time as well. And as long as I got back home before them, I could really pretty much do whatever I wanted. But majority of it is just like getting in trouble and just running around having a good time and playing sports and learning lessons as you go as well. And it was beautiful because I was a part of this really big community of a bunch of kids that are around the same age that I'm still really good friends with. And we all just kind of took care of each other, hang around with each other and like you walk into a restaurant in the cedar-riverside neighborhood and people know your parents like they give you free food. You go to a mosque and you pray alongside like your parents friends. So it's like you're being babysitted outside with as much freedom as you want. So I would say like it was probably one of the best childhoods anybody could have. Yousra Mohamed 7:50 So, how is like, you're, like you- so you're Muslim correct? mahamed salad mhmm 7:56 Yousra Mohamed 7:56 Yeah. So um, how would you describe how close you were to God when you were younger to now? mahamed salad 8:06 I think I think that's the one thing that I would want it really not to change, like, the perfect answer would be like, Oh, I was really connected with God as a young kid. I'm still really super connected with God right now. But what I realized is when I was a child, my life wasn't very difficult and it was easy to be connected with God right? Cuz I really didn't have a lot of hard times, a lot of shortcomings. I didn't really question God, right. So I remember as a kid, I was very religious. I was very like, and it wasn't really a thing of like, my parents forced me to do it because they weren't really there. Yousra Mohamed yeah 8:43 mahamed salad 8:43 Like I was at the mosque I wore, I loved to wear like qamis' (throbe) And coofeeds (hat) and all the religious clothing. I love to read the Quran, and a lot of it was because I had this sort of attachment to it. And the one thing that I really love to do was just like to help people and I think I still had that characteristics. And it just it's just like, kind of built. It really just gave me something to do right. But as I got older you begin to start like dealing with things you have hardships- you. I think one of the biggest things was like losing a friend to gun violence. Which is like when somebody gets sick, it's a process right? The person gets sick, you take them to the hospital, you pray for them, you there's a chance that they might do well like in, like life gives you time to grieve, even though they're still alive, and you know, they're going to eventually die. Like it gives you time to grieve. But when somebody like dies from gun violence, it's a very sudden and abrupt thing. So that really made me question my faith, right? And you start to question God, like, why did they- Why do they have to die? Why not me? Like what makes me different, all those things. So I think the at the base level when I was younger, like it was really easy, and now as I get older, it gets harder and harder, but it builds character, and it builds that connection with God because the more hardship you go through, the more faith you have in God, once you get through it, you start to have those like, really, really like beautiful feelings of like, damn. You know, God got me through this. And I think at the practice level, as a kid, I would just pray because like, A there wasn't really feeling to it. I think a lot of Muslim kids can attest to that we prayed because our parents forced us to prayer told us to pray. We really didn't know what we were saying, at least for me personally, as I got older and went through dugsi or Sunday school, you know, I learned what I was saying. And I learned what Allahu Akbar means, which is God is great. And the more you learn about all these things, and you The more you learn what you're actually saying in prayer, the more you feel it, and like the more the more keen you are to actually doing it. So I think that the base of my religion changed throughout my childhood. It was It started with its innocence. And it's easy to it's difficult. But the practice of it got harder because, like, the difficulty of it of life just happening and things just happened to you. But the really nuanced things was really beautiful because I got to learn a lot. I got to learn the meaning of the Quran, which is one of the most studied books in the universe. You know, I got to learn why islam affects so much people in the world, I got to learn all those things and just build that connection with people. Have faith for sure. Yousra Mohamed 11:19 Yeah. Okay, so what would you say your cultural like, what's your cultural background? So Somali? Unknown Speaker 11:28 I would say yeah, ethnically im very Somali Yousra Mohamed 11:30 so like, what's ,i dont know how to word this Yousra Mohamed 11:36 like at home? Like what are you what's like since your, like you're born Ethiopia. You're Somali. You're also like, black. So like, at home what is like the most highlighted culture. mahamed salad 11:52 Um, I think in my house. It's like a second clash of cultures right and a clash of languages and Thankfully, like, we have one religion that we all just agree on, but I remember a majority of my, of my childhood was just arguing with my parents trying to convince them and try to culture them, try to help them understand who I was. And I think a lot of somalis can attest to the fact that like, somalinimoo and like being Somalian, that nationalism is really like, glued into us and viewed into us. And if you try to challenge that, like, your parents get scared, right, because first they lost their country, and now like, theyr'e terrified of like losing their tradition, because the next generation carries on the tradition, right? So I think that three different sort of the two different identities that I have is my Somali identity, and my African American or like my black identity, right? Yousra Mohamed Yeah, 12:49 mahamed salad 12:49 even though Somalis are definitely black. Like they have different cultures and they have different things that they do and the one like the one memory that I have for my soul, my identity is my dad is like fluent in English, and so is my mom but when we come home, wewhenever we try to speak with them in English like they would act like they wouldn't know what we were saying. So it was this idea of like, language is the key to culture if you understand your language it's much easier to learn your culture right but if you don't know the Somali language it's really hard to learn your culture. So they kind of- they kind of like push that into us like "learn your language, learn your language, learn your language" and growing up- growing up around like elders and like grandmothers and uncles and aunts and in the neighborhood that I lived in which is like the largest Somali population outside of Somalia you walk around all day speaking Somali like you can- you can survive in Cedar Riverside without speaking any other language person like the store owners, the doctors. There's lawyers, there's bank tellers that all speak Somali. So that language I think is the biggest part of my Somali identity. What I would say is the biggest part of my like, African American black identity is hip hop and rap music for sure. I think I just fell in love with it because I walked around every day. And like I saw these things, I saw the drugs I saw the gun violence, but I also saw like, this sort of hunger to be rich a and this hunger to be successful that like Jay Z and NAS, and Drake and all these people talked about of like, I want to make it here and I want to do that, right. Like Drake says, like, I like when money makes a difference, but doesn't make you different, like things like that. But I didn't really see that reflected in my Somali culture, like in the Somali culture, they really like connected back home, right? They're all working to get back home theyr'e al; making money to get back home. And within hip hop culture. I saw a way for me to be here. And a way for me to have an identity here in the US. And the second thing that's the biggest part of my, like, the American culture that I have is football. I think every Sunday, I don't think in my house we've ever missed a football game on Sundays. Unless we're not at home. Thanksgiving, we would just like huddle up around the TV and just watch other folks Games. All of my older cousins and uncles played football in high school in college, I played football in high school. Like, if you walked around a lot of the Somali neighborhoods, like McKnight and Franklin and East Philips and all these other places, basketball was a central thing or soccer. But I think in my neighborhood, it was football, like just running around shirtless in the rain was like a leather ball, like 100 other people chasing you. I think this is a very American thing, but it's like something that anybody can cling to and claim as their own as well. Yousra Mohamed 15:32 And you just said like "going back home going back home", have you gone back, to your homeland, to your home country, ever since you came back to America? mahamed salad 15:43 Yes. I never went back to Somalia specifically or Ethiopia, where I was born, but this summer I had the pleasure. So my entire family I have six younger siblings. And then it's me, my mom and my dad. So there's nine of us but My mom and my six younger siblings, because of like how our community is right now, all the things we're dealing with, went back to Kenya, and they're staying there. They have like house and they go to school. They're living there. They've been there for about a year now. And I had the pleasure of going there and visiting them. So I really didn't visit Somalia. But the one thing that I didn't notice when I went back to Kenya is like how different I am and how American I am compared to like, because like we both we look so similar, right Africans and African Americans like we look identical, and the only thing that separates the kids that that are growing up right now in Somalia and me is the 15 years that I've spent in America, everything else is identical. We have the same name, we have the same, like some of us are even like cousins, right or even siblings. But when I went there, I noticed that like it's very different. The culture is very different. The way that they talk or address one another is very different. The gender roles are very different. So that kind of just was, was a culture shock for me for sure. Yousra Mohamed 17:05 Um, so like, this is just like a fun little questions like out of your out of like, all the identities that you like have what's your favorite like home cooked meal? mahamed salad 17:18 All the identities that I have, um, I think a lot of my mom does a really good job. She's like she cooks a lot. She loves to cook she does a really good job of like, fusing traditional Somali meals with like some American flavor. Yousra Mohamed Yeah. 17:34 mahamed salad 17:35 Like she would cook Somali rice like with all the spices and then she would like make french fries cut up the french fries and put it in there something like that. The one thing that I do remember, she would do is actually take Malawaax, which is like, I think what I always told people was the French stole it from from East Africa, Yousra Mohamed or like 17:53 mahamed salad 17:53 But it is crepes? Yousra Mohamed 17:54 It's kind of like the East African pancake. mahamed salad Yeah. Yousra Mohamed superthin 17:59 17:59 mahamed salad 18:00 Its super thin and sweet and its really good. And like it's very like popularized by like Europeans and the French and the Italians but they really just took that, I would I think because we make it a lot better, but she- she used to take that and then like put like eggs with it and bacon and like add that you know that because we didn't really know turkey bacon in East Africa, but she would add that flavor and like I remember like always arguing my mom, like "hoyoo is it everyday we're eating rice and pasta like can we eat something else". So like definitely like those cuisines of like, just a lot of breakfast and like the eggs and the bacon and turkey bacon and the malawaax and then she cooked a lot of burgers, tacos, she loved making tacos so so just fusing because somali- somali food has a lot of like spices like garlic and like really rich flavors, so just fusing all of that was like the hallmark foods of the US. Yousra Mohamed 18:58 Kind of shifting over, Yousra Mohamed 19:00 So, have you ever had difficulty applying for jobs? Or like even applying for school? Due to being Muslim, Somali, African American? mahamed salad 19:14 Um, I would say yes. Like it isn't. It's never really a thing, a lot of people in Muslim people know this is was not very outward. It's not like in your face, especially in Minnesota. Minnesota has like a, you know, they have this like Minnesota nice sort of thing. But it's also like very passive aggressive, right. So definitely like with schools, my eighth grade year, I was doing very well in school, and I was running track and cross country and like, I flew out to Florida to participate in the Junior Olympics. And, you know, there's a lot of schools sort of like wanting to recruit me. And one of the schools that I wanted to go to a Dee'la Salee And it was this whole, this whole sort of thing of like, oh, Like this is like a Christian school, are you going to feel comfortable here. They would ask you like questions like Yousra Mohamed Yeah 20:06 mahamed salad 20:06 that to kind of make you feel uncomfortable and iffy about going to the school Yousra Mohamed 20:09 like second guess yourself? mahamed salad 20:10 Second guess yourself and things like that. I think that's the first sort of experience that I had. Because like I grew up in the cedarriverside neighborhood I didn't really have exposure, like I went to school in the cedar-riverside community school, so I didn't have exposure to the outside world. But once I got to the outside world, like it kind of really hits you, like you kind of have that understanding of like, wow, I'm different and people are gonna treat me different. Like My name is Mahamed. So that's like a red flag right away. Like people are going to just think, your- like, you know, a terrorist, all those things, you're doing this you're doing that your flight risk all of that. So the discrimination and and all that still exists here in Minnesota is very, it's extremely passive aggressive, like, they ask you a lot of questions like, are you sure do you feel comfortable you know, we would love to like, bring you, - one of the things that I see from a lot of jobs is like, "we would love to bring you on, But you know, we don't think you really qualify for this job." And then, like, you see that you have more than enough qualifications, like it's for something very simple like, like a store retailer, like a gas station operator, like something that doesn't really need a lot of qualifications. But they would say a lot of things like that. And there's just, there's just a lot of things that come with it. And then to add on top of that, like alhamdulilah, I'm not really like outwardly, like, if you didn't know who I was, and if I didn't tell you, it's very difficult for you to tell that I'm a Muslim. Like a lot of the women in my life deal with that way more. Because they, they have that courage to wear the hijab and to go out every day and to like to be who they are. I remember my mom, like her trying to get her GED like while she was pregnant was very difficult for her to get into a lot of GED programs. They would tell her things like like, "are you capable of doing this?" "You know, we know you have a lot of kids and a lot of things on your plate." They would say things like that to try to like get under her skin and convince her not to- not to do it. So yeah, I think for me that and also like being a black male, a lot of people see that as like threatening and like they don't really feel comfortable around you and they're like oh you know, like there's that like angry black male sort of stereotype but being a Muslim if you don't know really know my name, then it's it's really difficult. So shout out to all the women out there with the hijabs doing their thing, Mashallah. Yousra Mohamed 22:34 So, if you're comfortable, could you tell a story about like, anytime you like, under, like you've gone through discrimination. Or like a stereotype, like somebody automatically had a stereotype about you that kind of like made you who you are today or like, motivated you to become a better humanbeing or a better you after? mahamed salad 22:58 Um, you know, like I said before, my majority of my life and who I am is politically charged, like, the very basis of me coming into this country is this whole whole sort of battle of like I was born in Ethiopia. So I'm not a Somali citizen like the Somali government not wanting to give me a citizenship because I'm not, quote unquote, ethnically or not my nationality isn't necessarily Somali. So it's always been political for me. And I think for some people, they would look at that and it would anger them and it would kind of just make them shun away politics and not want to deal with it because it made their life so difficult. But for me, it kind of made me interested in it. Like I would walk into rooms and, like walk into conversations and just try to figure out like, why people do what they do. And like, what politics has to do with that. Um, I feel like the very first experience that I had with that, I would say like in the cedarriverside neighborhood, there's always like, there's always been like this, these two sides of like, okay, it's it's so beautiful and it's so vibrant but with every community they have their- their hard times and their shortcomings. So, there's this day where we had, - and it's very interesting because this is this is one of the programs around the nation is called up the PAL. program is the police athletic League, right? And what they basically do is they bring in cops from whatever city like they do this in California boss, Boston, Massachusetts, here in Minnesota, Yousra Mohamed 24:26 kind of like urban setting. mahamed salad 24:27 Yeah, urban settings, like in Houston and what they do is like they they bring in the cops from the city like Minneapolis police department and they start like an athletic league and then the cops are the sort of coaches and the referees and it's just supposed to like sort of build this relationship with kids. Which is like if you look at it's very innocent thing, but there's a lot of like surveillance and undermining things that go with it. Especially like if you're a Muslim kid. So we're, we just won the championship, right which is one of the PAL athletic championship, and were in one of the community rooms celebrating and just having a good time. And there's always like, there's always been a side of violence within my community. So like other gun violence or fights or things like that. And there's like a fight in the corner of like one of the soccer fields, and I'm standing outside, so it's on the other corner, and I'm standing on the street side. And so obviously, somebody calls the cops because it's turning into a sort of a riot. And once the cops arrive on the scene, they- so I'm standing next to like the street, Street and I'm nowhere near where the riot is, I have nothing to do with it. I'm not fighting anybody. I'm just watching. They come up from behind me and like tackle me and I at the time, I'm like, 12/13 years old, tackle me like they try to restrain me. And if you keep in mind if you're like a human being and somebody grabs you from the back, you can really see who it is and if you're watching people fighting you're, you're automatically assume okay, somebody's trying to come from me, right? I'm not. Yousra Mohamed 26:05 Its like a fight or flight moment. mahamed salad 26:06 Yeah, it's like a fight or flight moment, you're not safe in situation. And like, they kept trying to tell me like, "calm like "Stop, stop struggling" "stop restraining" and they hit remember like one of them like trying to move their knee and the down" me. I hit me like in the eye. I got hit in like the back of the head. And its just like, like there's a lot more to it. But it's like one of those moments that's very traumatic for somebody and like to deal with that as a 12/13 year old kid because you're a black youth in America. And because you- you live in this community. So like, as I grew up, though, what it did is like it made me want to speak out. It made me want to go to events and hearing, senate hearings and speak to like, federal, federal politicians and even local politicians like the governor and the mayor and constantly bring that message like, first of all, the cedar-riverside neighborhood. Is it what you think it is and the reason that the cops did that is Because they're trained to think cedar equals violence, right? So you come into cedar, everybody in there is automatically hostile and violent. And because of that, that's why they treated me the way they treated me. And to add on to that, I'm Muslim, and I'm black. Right? So what it did is like it kind of shaped how I carry myself, and like how I conduct myself but at the same time, it does have that like, sort of, like, you try to be humble and you try to be like the nice guy and you try to be respectful. But in the back of your head, you had that charm of like, there's if I get pulled over like this is there's no difference between this cop that's pulling me over and the cop that beat my ass when I was 12/13 years old, excuse my language, right? So like, it builds that like, generation of violence and trauma and then my kids hopefully don't have to deal with that. But it just keeps going on and on and on and on. So hopefully what I want to do is to break that right. So as I got older, I started to think like, Okay, why did the cops do what they do? Why do they do that? Why did they treat me like that and it began with trying to understand who I am right as a person like being one with your identity as a Muslim and holding on to that and like not hiding it not telling people like for example, running around telling people your not muslim right. And then being one with my blackness and like not running away from that a lot of Somali people run away from them, and they say, I'm not black, i'm Somali, you know. Trying to like hide from that injustice and that balance. And it honestly doesn't really do much for you. If just like the kid I was, if you're facing the other direction, you're just another black and they're not going to ask you some are not. So majority of that just shaped my life as I was- I don't like the word activist. Yeah, but as an activistbecause that word has been coined by social media and everybody like wants to be an activist now but just as an activist and somebody that you know, constantly advocates for my community to ensure that like the next generation of my younger siblings, like I have three younger brothers and three younger sisters like they don't- hopefully, they don't have to do with that. So just yeah, just like how I carry myself in the way, the way that I do my I do things and do my business. Yousra Mohamed 27:01 Thank you for sharing that story. So, um, if you were to like have it written, what would you like, write down your identity as? If you're applying for a job or anything. mahamed salad 29:26 if I was applying for a job my identity so like it doesn't, that's a tough one. I would I would say like, definitely just like as a black man. Yeah, so it's like a black Muslim American. Like just simple as that. Um not, I don't think- I think complicating identity just like, it's not really necessary. Like, I'm a black Muslim man. You don't need to understand what that is. mahamed salad 29:52 you know, you just need to respect me as a human being. You don't need respect me because I'm a black muslim man. You don't respect me because I'm Somali. Just do it because I'm a human being. I'm a black Muslim man, because that's the first thing that I identify with. That's the closest thing that like, if I think of Mahamed, I think of a black man in america that's just going through life. And he's he's trying to do it through the avenue of Islam right to carry islam with him, throughout it all. So, yeah, its like, the best way I can describe it is like, in one of the pieces that i write, and, like I try to write as much poetry as I can. But I say "I'm a conflicted complex color, not a description. I'm not a description.- I'm not a description of a complexion, but a conflicted complex color." So when people call you black, it's black as a description of a complexion, the skin color, right? Yousra Mohamed Yeah, 29:52 Yousra Mohamed Yeah, 30:40 mahamed salad 30:41 but we're not just the skin color. We're conflicted, complex color. So we're just were whole identity. We're a group of people that Yousra Mohamed 30:47 i like that, yeah mahamed salad 30:47 move and change and nobody has to understand that right? Where we can be whoever we want to be whenever we want to be because we have that luxury as human beings. So I would just say a black, black, Muslim. Yousra Mohamed 31:02 So how would you describe your education starting from elementary to high school? And like every, I have you like traveled around? mahamed salad 31:15 Yeah, um, so I think I was like from kindergarten to fourth graders babysitting. Just babysitting Mahamed. I got in trouble a lot I got moved around schools a lot got suspended, expelled. It's just I don't know, a part of it is that whole like black kid identity of like, "Oh, yeah, he just here to make trouble" like not really trying to understand the kid just put it throwing them in that pool of like, the little rascal you know, but a lot of it is also just like me being a kid with ADHD that like nobody wants to listen to. So just like me just kind of fighting back and like being "grr" about everything, you know. So probably from fourth grade, like I had had a lot of good experiences and I learned a lot but a lot of it was being in the principal's office and, but that was good for me because it kind of calmed me down and helped me make shape that identity of like, "Okay, this is what education is". And like, I'm glad I went through that from kindergarten through fourth grade. I didn't do that, like from freshman year to senior year, because it would, it would end up a lot different. You know, I think my best years of education were from fifth grade to eighth grade. And the reason I say that is because I went to the cedar-riverside community school, and I had the same teachers from fifth grade to eighth grade. So I really built a relationship with them. And I would say, these are the best teachers I've ever had in my life from kindergarten to like right now, even as a college student, so they did a really good job of like, bringing the outside world in. Like they took us on a lot of field trips, because our school was like 200 kids, we didn't have a lot of kids in our school in total. My graduating eighth grade class was like 11 or 12 kids, so it's very small school. So they took us on a lot of fieldtrips. And we were outside a lot, and we were like very active with our hands, like our science class, which is very, is very like outside, it wasn't really textbook in, like understanding definitions, it was really like, okay, kids, we're going to go outside and like, like, we went on top of one of the buildings got access to like a 39 story building so we could see the entire city. And like we learned geography for like, a whole semester on top of a roof. Like, it's things like that, you know, and like going outside and picking leaves. Forr my social studies class, we did current events, we didn't do history. We learned a lot about history, but like, it wasn't all day, like, here's a bunch of like, white people that you don't relate to, that have like nothing to do with you like your identity, like people like Christopher Columbus and like, like Vespucci Buchi and like, they're very like, very, like, astounding people, as you would say, like, yeah, Christopher Columbus killed a lot of indigenous people, but like, they did a lot of things. But it wasn't really any of that. It was Okay, let's let's learn about Somali history and East African history. Let's learn about African American History, things that, that connect to identity. And thana lot of current events. So I think I learned more in sixth through eighth grade than I have my entire life. Yousra Mohamed 34:15 We're teachers, those of color? mahamed salad 34:18 Umm surprisingly, I didn't have any teachers of color. Yousra Mohamed Oh, 34:21 mahamed salad 34:21 zero. But I think they, they, they knew that we were a bunch of Somali youth that needed teachers of color, right. And other things that come with having a teacher of color is a lot of those things that I've said where they teach you about African American, they're willing to teach you about African American History, they're willing to like- because if you have a white teacher, they don't, they wouldn't really feel comfortable talking about like white supremacy, and what white supremacy is, but these teachers were. So like, I'm a seventh grader learning about like, white supremacy in America, like a lot, seventh graders didn't get that opportunity. So I really owe them a lot for sure. Yousra Mohamed 35:01 That's amazing. So like, what high school did you go to? mahamed salad 35:04 I went to Minneapolis, South. Yousra Mohamed 35:07 South High School. mahamed salad Yes. 35:07 Yousra Mohamed 35:08 Did you go there off four years. mahamed salad 35:09 I went there for three years. My first year of high school, I went to Teza, as a lot of people call or step Academy. Yousra Mohamed 35:17 And then, South has a lot of, you know, it's super diverse, mahamed salad 35:23 extremely diversed Yousra Mohamed 35:24 Somalis. African Americans, mahamed salad 35:26 Latinos a lot of asians both 35:29 native americans Yousra Mohamed 35:30 yeah. So, um, how would you describe your high school years? mahamed salad 35:34 Um, I think high schools, a lot of finding myself. It was. It was the very first time I was in a big school. So it was kind of overwhelming. Like, I went from having the 10-10 people in my eighth grade graduating class to like, I think we had 700 or 800 kids in my senior year, like graduating. Yousra Mohamed Yeah. 35:53 mahamed salad 35:54 So it was like a big jump. But it was it was great. It was amazing. I played a lot of sports. So because I play a lot of sports, like, I had that connection with a lot of people in the building, and they watch you every Friday playing football, or, you know, every Saturday at track meets and things like that. So I think that's, that's one of the best things that I did is like building an identity and building that sort of character that I have, now. A lot of that I did that through high school. mahamed salad 36:24 So, and the other thing that I was veryprivileged to have is like that, like you said, that diversity in my school. So we had so many different student groups. I was the president of the MSA at my school and what we were, what we did was, we like, we taught classes right about Islam, and it was this was around the time when Trump was being elected president. So a lot of people were uneasy about, like, talking about Islamophobia, but our school like it took a head on right like we had posters up around the school, and it wasn't it was very, very polarized. Right so the schools that support that had a majority of students and kids and parents, whatever that supported Trump, it was like Trump, Trump, Trump Trump, right? And the schools that were very liberal It was like, like F trump, f Trump, F trump, F trump and if you have those two extremes there isn't really room for conversation and growth it's just a whole bunch of anger right? What our school did is they did a really good job of like being able to be like, you know what, believe what you want to believe and understand what you want to understand and but like we have the space and you can come into this space and learn about indigenous rights. You could come into space and learn about Islam and what Islam actually is not what Trump thinks it is right? You can come into this space and talk to kids that are like DACA recipients and have dealt with problems at the border and have been through that you can - if you voted for Trump it's fine, but you can come talk to these people and have an understanding of like, okay, now you get why voting for a man like this could affect someone like this, it sort of personalizes it and personalizes it. It isn't sort of this abstract thing that- that's in the air, and if you make things abstract, it makes people very, it makes it very easy to make decisions. You know, if it doesn't, if it doesn't directly affect you, and if it isn't like a thing you can see, hear or smell like, why does it really matter? It's just a guy that I'm voting for. Right. So that was one of the biggest things that we did. Another experience that I had was this student group that that the student groups called SUSOSH which was stand up, speak out South High. And it was like a civil rights like sort of activist group. We organized walkouts with like all the Minneapolis Public Schools like for like Jamal Clark, Philando Castile, you know, a lot of these like, because of like the gun violence and because of the police brutality, we we did that and we organized one of the biggest marches, like in the nation, for gun violence and like to be a part of something like that is is really beautiful. And I think what we did in SUSOSH affected a lot of the white students in the like, the student that had that privilege that were driving in from the suburbs to come to South High. It kind of opened their eyes, the world and like made them, you know, think about it, but like, wow, you know, this affects, like, our school is 5000 Kids 2000 of them kids that I played basketball with, who would have fun with just walked out? Because they feel that passionate about it. Let me learn about it, you know. And another thing that we did, which I think every school in the United States, including university should do is racial justice day. mahamed salad 39:27 And what racial justice day is, is basically it's, it's in Feb- no its in March, and you prepare the entire year, all the student groups prepare the entire year, they, they each prepare one workshop, and they each bring in one person to lead a workshop, right? So what we did was like we brought imaam's and like, notable people that are Muslim for our MSA group, to come in and to lead a workshop. And basically, all of the all of the teachers and the faculty became Students and all the students became teachers. So they switch roles, so that it isn't, it's not a thing of like, teachers are constantly like telling kids what the world should be. We're also- we also have that ability and that power to tell our stories as well. And a lot of the students participated in the workshops as well. So just set the entire day where you pick five workshops and you go into the class and you learn about, you know, indigenous rights or like feminism and like, why women should be empowered and like a lot of the guys that I played football with didn't understand that like, women make so much less money to men women have so much less rights, like one in three women deal with, you know, sexual assault or harassment at least once in their life. Like once you know, all those facts. It is in this thing of like, yeah, you know, she's just being weird. You don't really think like that you start to reconceptualize, like how you view the world. So it was that was, I think, one of the most beautiful experiences and because we, the students control that day, like we let everybody else everybody out early. By 12, everybody was outside, playing basketball, football, eating lunch, and then we just went home. So I think high school, my high school years was a lot of fun. And it was filled with a lot of like activism and a lot of education and learning about myself and learning about the world as well. Yousra Mohamed 41:16 Has there ever been a time in your life where you didn't a claim a certain part of your identity? For example, like being Muslim being black being Somali? mahamed salad 41:28 Um, I think I just because of because of my entire life, I've been told what to do. Yousra Mohamed Yeah, 41:33 Yousra Mohamed Yeah, 41:33 mahamed salad 41:33 and I've been told what I am and what I should be. I had this and a lot of times, it isn't good. Like it kind of like, like, like, it's like a wall sometimes that I need to get through. But I had this sort of personality of like, "F U" like, I'm gonna be whoever I want to be. I'm gonna do what I want to do. Like, you can't tell me what to do and its that sort of mentality of like, and it goes back to like that trauma. All the things that we talked about earlier of like, I been through all this stuff like, "Who are you to tell me what to do and who are you to tell me?" Thankfully, I'm still very open minded with my identity. It's very much like I'm going to be what I want to be. But the one of the funny things that I used to so coming when I came to America, the only- its not even a state but the only thing that I knew was Washington DC. So when people ask me, where were you born, I would say Washington DC. I didn't want people to know that I was born in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. They would make fun of me. They would call me all these names, right? So literally until like third fourth grade, I was like, I was born-, because the first day of school everybody gets up. Hi, my name is Mohammed nine years old and you do the whole thing. mahamed salad 41:59 I was born in and all the kids see like Kansas like St. Paul, you know, and I was like, Yousra Mohamed 42:42 all these basic places. mahamed salad 42:43 Yeah, all these- but they were all very normal like places, like imagine like you everybody stands up they go Kansas, St. Paul, Seattle, California, San Diego, Addis Ababa. Like everyones gonna be like woah thats different. Yousra Mohamed 42:54 And raise a question like wheres that. mahamed salad 42:56 I used to just say Washington DC. But as I got older, like I kinda just, you know, grew out of that for sure. Yousra Mohamed 43:03 Okay, so moving forward, what are you currently involved in? Yousra Mohamed 43:10 So right now I'm studying, I'm still in school, political science and religion, like I talked about before, just in every class that I'm in trying to learn as much as I can, im taking a world politics right now, world politics class, and we're learning about like, the Muslims in China and what's happening to them there. And it's very interesting, and you learn all the like the insight thing and all the little things. For example, there's a lot of Muslim countries there are supporting China and what they're doing. So I think just learning a lot about that so that when I graduate, I'm not, I'm not I'm not as ignorant as I was before. And I'm also more willing to learn more and more and more. I'm also a youth specialist at the community center that I grew up in at the Brian Cole community center. So like, right now I'm coaching like a rec team. I'm leading a college readiness group called fans to take care how to code teaching kids how to use, like recording equipment. So like if they want to make music if they want to produce, if they want to, like explore all these avenues that isn't necessarily go to school right away. We provide them with that. So just giving back to my community as much as I can, but also learning as much as I can about like community building and community involvement so that when I do leave school, I'm very prepared. And I'm also you know, Yousra Mohamed 44:26 giving back to the community. mahamed salad 44:27 Yep, yep, yep, exactly. And I'm also part of the NRP board, which is like the community board in Cedar Riverside neighborhood, Yousra Mohamed 44:36 what does NRP stand for? mahamed salad 44:37 I actually have no idea. Yousra Mohamed OH 44:39 mahamed salad 44:40 I have no idea. It's like the neighborhood reallocated. We're changing the name right now. We're building like a new website Yousra Mohamed 44:45 So its in the process of? mahamed salad 44:45 Yes, its in the process of like, because basically NRP was because of like a lot of things that happened in the neighborhood, it kind of was disband for like five years. And then last year, they elected a board and they did all these things. So I'm the Secretary for the NRP board and the youth chair. So what we're doing, we're doing a lot of things we gave $10,000 to on the AAU team here, the cedar-riverside warriors, for them to like, go out and travel the country. So go to like Kansas and Kentucky and they went to Vegas last summer. And so for all these kids growing up, where I grew up, dealing with the things that I had dealed with, for me to give them that opportunity to like travel the country and maybe even someday travel the world is more than rewarding. So just doing things like that. We're also building another program for girls to teach them like beauty and wellness and all those things that they want to go into cosmetics and like doing hair and open up their own shop. It gives them the opportunity to like, like be their own person, not wait for other people. And we're also funding, because girls don't only do hair and makeup and things like that, for those of you don't know. We're also funding. Yousra Mohamed fun fact 45:48 mahamed salad 45:55 Yeah, we're also funding girls athletic groups. Just directly just like only giving girls spaces because within our community there's it's really difficult to give girls time because all the time is allocated for the guys right? All the soccer teams and the basketball teams are Guys Guys, guys, guys, guys, right? And if you go into any open gym, its just filled with Somali boys and the girls are just like cooped up in the house all day. So because like my sisters all played sports, and I want to give them the girls in my community that opportunity to like, come in, just be athletic and enjoy themselves. We're trying to we're trying to do that as well. Yousra Mohamed 46:31 Like breaking barriers. mahamed salad 46:33 Yeah, for sure. breaking all those barriers. Yousra Mohamed 46:36 Okay, um, do you believe that currently that you're fully content with, like, how your faith is, like how good of a muslim you are? mahamed salad 46:45 No, I don't think I'll ever be. mahamed salad 46:50 I don't think I'll ever be content with who I am. Yeah. And I think that's a good thing. Like one of the things that I always think about like is, within our community, we do a lot checking in, right? So if you ever go to your house, your mom asked me like, Are you done with school yet? Or "when are you going to get married?" They ask you all these questions. That's just like, a lot of Asian cultures are like that, and African cultures are like that as well. And it's kind of like constantly that checking, checking, checking, how are you doing now? How are you doing now? How are you doing now? When are you going to finally be successful, so that you can take care of us all, you know. Within my family is definitely like that too. Because I'm the oldest of seven and my dad is my dad's doing well, but he's not making a million dollars. So like everybody from my cousins and everybody back home is waiting for me to be successful so that I can take care of all of them, you know, and I'm definitely willing to do that. But I also understand that that takes time and isn't something that I should rush. With the my deen is 100% like that to like as a Muslim, submission allah (swt) la il la ha il la la, Like there's no god but God, and Muhammad is His Messenger (saw). Like that, that never that's never done. You'll never you'll never be perfect at that. You'll never be 100% of that. But like I said, that pursuit of getting close to ALLAH and that chase of trying to memorize and try to, like not only memorize but learn the actual meanings of words like waduha meaning, the beginning and the lights and that how that directly connects to fajr prayer and new beginnings. And when you learn about all these things, like it just it brings you closer to Allah and the closer and closer and the closer you get, the better off you are. But it's also beautiful to understand that like, you'll never get there. And that's not a bad thing. Yousra Mohamed yeah 48:30 mahamed salad 48:31 Like it reminds me of Matthew McConaughey when he won his Oscar, like he told the story of like, somebody asked him who his hero was. He said, I don't know, let me get back to you and came back and the person said, Did you figure out who's your hero? And he said, Yeah, I did. It's me five years from now. And then five years later, that same person came to him said, Hey, are you want your own hero yet? And he said, No, I'm not even close. It's me five years from now. And then the person came back 10 years later, he said, Hey, are you your own hero yet? And its the story of like, he's his own hero because he wants to be that person that he has in his head of like that provider that that that good dorr that perfect Muslim. But the beauty of it is, he knows he'll never get there. But on his journey there and his and his progression to getting there, he builds so much character, so much memory, so much relationships. And I guess that's the beauty of life for sure. Yousra Mohamed 49:23 So do you have any current goals on how to become a better Muslim or how to keep doing good? mahamed salad 49:33 Yeah, I think it's the little things. Islam is very, very, like, its a way of life isn't really like a, I would say, for most people is defined as a religion, but I see it as a way of life. It's the way you conduct yourself, the way you talk, the way you act, how you walk, everything is islam. So it's complete submission to ALLAH. It's the little things, memorizing more Quran. I think when you memorize something It becomes a part of you. And when the Quran is a part of you, if you study the Quran, anybody that is Muslim or isn't Muslim, knows that this is an outwardly thing. This is something that is beyond all of us, from, you know, the development of the embryo being in the Quran to the discovery of Iran to like, all these beautiful things, that it's just like, beyond science and beyond all these things, being in the Quran, and not only that, but answers to very simple things like how to help other people how to, you know, figure out disputes, why, why ALLAH or like, if you even believe in a higher being, but why the world is divided up into so many countries and so many different nations and so many different factions, but one has an answer to all of that. So, by memorizing that, and also memorize the meaning of that, I can always recall on that and hopefully that helps me grow my life and services a big part of, of, of, you know, being a Muslim, you know. Prophet Mohammed (saw) ,Islam is also a measure of character and is also a measure of kindness, right? So just trying to be as kind as I can to those that are less fortunate than me, younger kids, people that are homeless, just going out of my way to help as much people as I can. And one of the biggest goals that I have for this year is to teach one person at least, or a couple people like how to read the quran and to teach them Arabic so that they can read the Quran for themselves. And you you reap a lot of that benefits as well because if you teach somebody something, they can do that for the rest of their lives and teach somebody else, and, you know, so there's really nothing better than service. Yousra Mohamed 51:33 Like an endless good deed. mahamed salad 51:34 it's an endless good deed. Exactly. And teaching is is it rewarding itself. So I have a lot of goals, but I think we always try to focus on the bigger picture and these big things and these big goals like build a mosque or donate a certain amount of money or all these things as Muslims but I want to focus on the little things like five daily prayers helping as much as I can teach somebody how to move. Yousra Mohamed 51:58 Alright, so last question and you kind of highlighted on this in the last question so um do you think that islsm shaped you into the person you are today and how? mahamed salad 52:11 definitely shaped me to the person I am today. mahamed salad 52:16 my name being Mahamed and just learning about. That's the first that's the first thing I learned. I didn't before I learned anything else but that's the first like memory that I have of like, what my name is and like why I was named Mahamed and like who Muhammad (saw). So he talked about character he talked about, are you going to ever reach that sort of like euphoria of character that euphoria of like deen and being that perfect Muslim. And another thing that I constantl chase is trying to be as much like Prophet Mohammed (saw). And that shaped my character. I think the kindness and service for a lot of people like it comes from their parents, their parents kind of tell them Be kind be good you know my parents are really amazing people but like, they weren't really there to be very honest. Now that I think about it because they were constantly working and when they were there they did an incredible job, but I had a lot of time to myself right. And that's amazing because Prophet Muhammad (saw) had a lot of time to himself, right. He never had very much friends. So a lot of people constantly like look at character and they say comes from your environment. And that's true in a sense it is either a byproduct of your environment, you try not trying to be like your environment or you become your environment right. But for some people is just this thing of like, you constantly think about something and you constantly trying to manifest something and you just create these goals in your head good or bad to be very honest. Right? And you just live through them and for me as a kid, I remember just really honestly sitting in a Masjid and thinking about like, how, how beautiful was and how much destiny and katharkhathar of Allah has to do with the fact that I'm named Mahamed right? mahamed salad 54:00 And I'm learning about this man that like that, that I remember one of the stories he's carrying bags for this old lady that's blind. And she's talking about Oh, did you hear about this prophet that came to the came here and he's so terrible and he's this and he's that and he doesn't put her bags down. He just keeps carrying them and carrying them and he brings it to her house and he tells her, you have a nice day and he leaves. That's his character. That's the person that he was in. Yeah, you know, the world that we live in today character isn't really measured anymore. People don't really care about how nice you are. And if you are nice, they take you for granted or they use it against you. Yousra Mohamed mhmm 54:00 Yousra Mohamed overlooked 54:25 mahamed salad 54:34 Oh, yeah, exactly a lot of that too. mahamed salad So um, 54:36 mahamed salad 54:40 Islam I think is my character. I wouldn't I don't think I would be the person I am today. If I didn't try to be as much like Prophet Muhammad somebody or send them as possible. And if I didn't try to be like the best Muslim that I can and it's a lot of things like I remember seeing hadiths like of the prophet (saw) saying you know, an orphan and whoever helps an orphan will go into heaven like my fingers and his fingers were like touching, right? So it's little things like that, that you remember from your childhood of you listening to lectures and it's like stuck in the back of your head. So that you grow up thinking that okay, i have to help this person and I have to help that personal. So, every time I walk past a homeless person, is this sort of like guilt of like, "Am I living up to whatever like allah destined me to be right? Allah blessed me with this name. He blessed me with this religion, like am I living up to it? And I know, I know that I never will never be that perfect person. But who built that character who I am today? And hopefully I continue to have that as well. Yousra Mohamed 55:43 All right, thank you. And that's all for today. So this is Mahmaed Salad again, and I had fun interviewing you. Thank you. mahamed salad 55:53 You're welcome Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History with Amal Issa, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00 It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age? Amal Issa 0:15 My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old. Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20 All righ...
Show more Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00 It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age? Amal Issa 0:15 My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old. Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20 All right. So we're gonna start with your background. So where were you born and raised? Amal Issa 0:25 I was born in Minneapolis, downtown Minneapolis, and I was raised here so I lived here all my life. Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:32 Okay. And how many siblings do you have? Amal Issa 0:35 I have eight siblings, two brothers and sisters. Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:40 Nice. So growing up in Minneapolis, did you feel like you were surrounded by your community? Or did you ever feel like discriminated against? Amal Issa 0:52 I, I felt I was surrounded by my community, because I think outside Somalia, Minnesota has the largest population of Somalis? So I was constantly surrounded by Somalis. I didn't feel left out, in a sense. Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:06 Nice. So, in terms of your religious upbringing, how was that like? :ike, did you guys go to the mosque often? Did you celebrate the holidays? Amal Issa 1:16 Yeah. I'm Muslim. So I spent like, a lot of time in mosques and celebrating. We only have like, two holidays. So yeah, we'd celebrate those. But we wouldn't really- So I went to like a small school so we would get it off to celebrate, but like when I got into university, it's not considered a national holiday. So I'd have to like skip class. Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:43 Oh, okay. So can you give more detail about what you remember growing up and celebrating the certain traditions and stuff? Amal Issa 1:53 Yeah. Um, when we're celebrating, this is like a one specific restaurant we always go to. And like, we've been going there for, however many years it's like, tradition now, for us to go there. But it feels weird when we don't go, because over the summer we were out of the country. So it was only my dad and my sister left here. And the rest of us didn't go, so it felt kind of weird adjusting to life outside of what I grew up knowing. Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:25 So when- You said, You guys go in the summer. So is that for Ramadan? Or what is that for, when you go to the restaurant? Or is that just like a family thing? Amal Issa 2:35 It's for Eid. So our two holidays. Yeah. But yeah, the last one was in the summer, but we're out of the country. So we didn't end up going. Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:44 Okay, so how was it like going- or going in? I mean, going to Somalia? Amal Issa 2:48 Um, it was weird, because it's my first time out of the country ever. So it took a lot of adjusting. Like, when I'm in Minnesota, it's like, "oh, you're too Somali". But when we're there everyone knew us as the American kids. So it was kind of like, it put us off a little, because everyone, like, even when we didn't speak, everyone automatically knew us. I think we're like the talk of the neighborhood. But it was weird kind of adjusting to the different way of life. And it could be that hard to adjust to it. I liked it. Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23 So how long were you there? Amal Issa 3:25 Two months. Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:26 Two months? Okay, and did you stay with family or did you go to like, a hotel or something? Amal Issa 3:32 No, my mom was renting a house there. So, we stayed there for two months, but we had family over every single day. So it felt it felt nice, because everyone's so busy when we're here, but there's it's like a new person's coming to visit us every day. It was nice. Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:47 Oh, it's nice. And how was Eid there compared to here? Like how you celebrate it? What would you say? Amal Issa 3:55 I missed Eid here. It was weird over- It was nice. But I was just so used to having- Celebrating Eid here. So it felt kind of weird, but we went to the ocean, which is pretty nice. It was very pretty. But we spent it around family, so I liked that. Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:14 How are you involved in the Muslim community and how were you like, I guess, as a child and then to now like, how were you involved in community? Muslim or like, Somali too? Amal Issa 4:26 Okay. Um, as a child, I spent most of my time surrounded by Somalis, as I said earlier, but I went to like a small, charter school, that was mostly Somali. But now going to University of Minnesota, I kind of want to give back, so I volunteer at the Brian Coyle Center in South Minneapolis and I just helped tutor kids there. It's a nice experience and I get to help out in my own way. Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:56 Yeah. And at Brian coil- So can you give more detail on that program like, what kind of kids are there or is it connected with other schools? Amal Issa 5:04 Yeah. Okay, so the Brian Coyle Center is like a community center for the Cedar Riverside area in South Minneapolis. It's close by here. But it's mainly Somali- A Somali community, people that live there. So a lot of Somalis come in, but I work. I volunteer in the Teen Tech Center, and it's funded by Best Buy. But what I do is, I tutor youth between around like, 5th to 9th- 10th grade, and I just helped them with their homework. It's mainly after school, so if they ever need help, the kids that live inside the area, they come and they get that they need. Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:47 And how long have you been volunteering there? Amal Issa 5:50 About a year and a half now. I started there, because of the scholarship I got, but ended up really liking it. So I went back. Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:57 Oh, nice. So you're talking about the University a lot. So what made you choose the University of Minnesota? Amal Issa 6:06 Honestly, my first choice was Augsburg. Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:09 Oh, really? Amal Issa 6:09 Yeah, I was like, set on coming here. But along the way, I had like some financial issues. I applied, I got accepted and everything, but there's like some financial issues. So I ended up just like, on a whim, choosing the University of Minnesota. I didn't really want to go there, but I love it. It's so much more different than I thought it would be. Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:29 So what did you think it would be like? Or like why didn't you want to at first? Amal Issa 6:34 Well, my sister goes there, so I thought it would be weird. But, um, I grew up like in South Minneapolis, really close to the University of Minnesota. So I spent a lot of my time there. And I felt like I knew what was going on there. And it seemed like really small to me, but it's gigantic. It's amazing. It's beautiful. But, um, what was the question? Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:59 Oh, I guess I asked you- Sorry, I asked you what made you go against it before? Yeah, what you thought about it before and I guess what you think about it now? Amal Issa 7:08 Yeah, I thought it'd be like a small school, because I went to St. Paul college and St. Paul College was a really small and diverse- When I came here it's, you know, a predominantly white school, but I love it. It's big. There a lot of opportunities and a lot of different things I could do to feel kind of like at home. Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:31 Okay. And, um, do you know your major yet? Amal Issa 7:35 Yeah. I'm majoring in mathematics. Hopefully to minor in Arabic. Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:40 Okay, cool. So they have- They offer Arabic classes then there? Amal Issa 7:45 Yeah, I'm taking one the semester. I wanted to minor in Spanish, but I just gonna put that on hold, because it's a little too hard for right now. Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:53 Yeah. So how is the Arabic class? Is it like what you thought it would be? Or- Or did you have expectations of it? Amal Issa 8:01 Yeah, so growing up Muslim. Arabic played a huge plays a huge role in my life. So I thought like I knew enough, and I did not enough, to like get me by, because in like an Arab country or anything, but I really don't know anything about the basics, but it's- My teacher is great. It's making me fall in love with the language and that's why I want to continue, because- Just the way he teaches it makes me really like it. Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:31 It's great. So I'm sorry, I guess I'm jumping back to like Islam. But um, how do you think Islam affects your everyday life? Like do you pray or is there anything that you do? Amal Issa 8:45 Um, well, it affects the way I dress because I wear the hijab every day. But yeah, I pray every day. It doesn't really affect my life, because I just have to take a couple of minutes out of my day to go and do my prayers, but I think it helps me feel like more at ease, knowing that like thingsthings will turn out okay. Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:09 And when did you start wearing your hijab? Amal Issa 9:12 Um, I'm not sure. Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:15 Oh, you're not sure? Amal Issa 9:15 It's been a while. Yeah. Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:16 Oh, okay. Yeah. So moving on to, I guess your current life in terms of like Sisterhood Boutique or like your after high school life, I guess. What made you connect with Sisterhood Boutique? Amal Issa 9:36 It's a weird story, because my sister, um, interned there summer of last- 2018. Yeah, summer 2018, my sister interned there and I was unemployed then. I was just at home, most of the time. And my sister was going to go on a camping trip to the Boundary Waters. So she's like, "oh, since you're at home all the time, uh, you should come along". So I was like "Okay, why not?" We ended up- And it was with Sisterhood Boutique, so I invited a friend and we ended up going camping with them for a week. It was brutal, but I guess we kind of bonded, while we were there, because the store manager,at the time, went with us and she offered us jobs afterwards. We ended up interning there and I interned there for about eight, nine months, and then my internship ended, the beginning of the summer, right before we left for Somalia. Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31 Oh, okay. And can you explain what you did at Sisterhood Boutique? Amal Issa 10:37 Yeah, so for the most part, we'd work on the store floo, just arranging the front and doing inventory in the back, helping customers. But we also attended a couple different events. We helped with their annual fashion show. And yeah, that's mainly what we did. But since I stopped working, I just go back a couple times a week to help out. Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:05 Yeah, that's sweet. So what other events do you remember? Other than the fashion show? Amal Issa 11:12 I can't remember their names. But, um, I was invited to represent, like, Pillsburg United community. So Sisterhood is under the Pillsbury United Community. So I was invited to present them at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. I think it was in like April, I think. Yeah. So I was invited to represent them. And it was like an equity summit, at the Radisson Blu, but it was a really cool experience. Oh, what else did we do?I can't remember most their names. But we went to a lot of events. Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:49 That's okay. Is there anything you'd like to say to people in your community or like any messages that you would like to put out? Amal Issa 12:00 I guess there's like, a lot of problems with the youth right now. So just like a message, would be like, we'll get through it. I mean, our parents survived Civil War, so we can survive anything. So we'll get through it. Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:15 And when did your parents come here? Like, did any of your older siblings come with them? Or born in Somalia? Amal Issa 12:22 No. So all of my siblings and I were born in Minneapolis, but I think my mom was like, 19 when the Civil War broke out, and she met my father in Canada, soChyanne Phravoraxay 12:32 Oh really? Amal Issa 12:33 Yeah. They- So they fled, during the Civil War and my mom- She went through a lot of different countries, but I know she ended up in Canada and a dad somehow ended up in Canada. That's where they met and then they decided to relocate to Minnesota and we've been here ever since. Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:51 Okay, and are any of your extended family to like your aunts or maybe grandma, grandpa? Amal Issa 12:59 Yeah. I've never met my grandparents. But one, my dad's mother is in Somalia right now. And the rest passed away already. So I never met them. But I have a couple aunts and uncles scattered around the United States and Canada. But I'd say most of my, like, close family's back home in Somalia. Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:25 What do you hope to do with your degree in mathematics? Amal Issa 13:28 Uh, I'd love to be a teacher. So I'm, I'm studying mathematics, but I'm also in the direct track to teaching program at University of Minnesota. And in order to get into the licensure program, I have to major in the subject area I want to teach. So, yeah. That's what I'm doing right now. Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:47 Okay. And do you have an idea about what age you're thinking of teaching? Amal Issa 13:53 I'm stuck between to middle school and high school. I still don't know yet. But one of those hopefully. Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:58 Chronologically, where do you stand in your siblings? Like are you the middle child or youngest? Amal Issa 14:06 I'd say somewhere in the middle. I have three sisters older than me and then five siblings younger than me, including my two brothers. So not exactly the middle, but around that. Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:23 Okay. About that restaurant that you're talking about, so when do you remember your first time going there? Or have you- your family been doing that like before you were even born, because I know you're like, kind of in the middle-ish. Amal Issa 14:37 It start started, I think maybe like 10-12 years ago, but I'm not sure exactly when. I think it was too young to remember. But yeah, it was a while ago, and we started going to like another one also, but now it's been about 8 years so. Yeah. Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:59 So you mentioned going to the charter school, as a child. So what other ethnicities did you, likeI guess were you learning with or like other students? Amal Issa 15:11 Okay, so the majority were Somali, but there's also like different, um, Arab cultures like Egyptians and Syrians but also like Pakistanis, Afghanis. But mainly Somali. Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:30 And was- Oh, sorry. What were you gonna say? Oh. Was the- was Islam ever like tied into it? Amal Issa 15:38 Um, not really. They like, give us like a certain amount of time, if we needed to go pray, but other than that it wasn't really tied into it. But for holidays we would get it off. Yeah. Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57 And for the university- Because you did say that there was a change in like, being surrounded by your community and then going to university, did you ever feel like uncomfortable or was it just new? Amal Issa 16:09 Okay, so when I- 2016, when I was starting my junior year of high school, I started doing PSCO at St. Paul College first, and St. Paul college was really diverse. And I had a couple of my friends who were doing PSCO with me, so I was very comfortable there. It was a bit of a change, but I was still comfortable. But I graduated from high school and St. Paul college, um, May 2018. And then I started at the University of Minnesota, September 2018. And it was a big change 'cause I didn't really know anyone there. And it was- It's a predominantly white school, so I was mainly surrounded by white people and it felt different because I was so used to be surrounded by Somalis and my friends and it was a bit uncomfortable, but I got used to it. Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:00 Just judging from what I've heard about, like you being involved in like the Sisterhood Boutique and you went to the events, are you involved in any other activist stuff? Amal Issa 17:11 Any other extracurriculars? Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:13 Yeah, that too. Yeah. Amal Issa 17:15 Um, well, for my teaching program, I have to, like, observe, like a high school teacher or a middle school teacher teaching. So I'm, I'm usually a South High- South High School in South Minneapolis on Fridays and Thursday mornings, just observing a math teacher. But other than that, I work through the University of Minnesota with America Reads, and I'm literacy mentor, around Franklin at- it's called Projects for Pride and Living, but yeah, I tutor there. Like two days of the week. Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:53 So how does that compare to Brian Coyle? Because I know you tutored up at both but they're different, like organizations. Amal Issa 18:01 So with- PPL is Projects for Pride in Living, so I'll just call it that. PPL, I worked with just one student each time I'm there. So we like get into a habit of doing things a certain way. But when i'm at Brian Coyle, I work with a bunch of different students and sometimes like there's really no one to tutor. So I'm just like hanging out. So it's a little different, in that way, but it's very structured at PPL and Brian Coyle was kind of like, "whoever comes comes". So it's kind of different in that way but I like both of them equally. Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:39 And what do you think of your- I guess, I forgot the term. Was it- does the observation I guess or is that- that's not an internship, right? You're just observing the teacher? Amal Issa 18:49 Yeah. Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:50 Okay. Amal Issa 18:50 It's just, I, service learning. That's what it is. Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:53 Oh. Okay. Service Learning.How is that? Like can you give me more details on it? Amal Issa 18:57 Well, yeah. Um, so when I first started, I was in a chemistry classroom, and I'm a math major. I took chemistry like four years ago. So I don't really know anything. I forgot everything. So it was kind of weird. But the teacher was a great teacher, I loved his way of teaching. And then he somehow got me into a math classroom to observe that, and she's also- the teacher I'm working with, she's also a great teacher, it's just a bit calmer. It's interesting to look at stuff from like, a teacher's perspective, the teacher's perspective now, because I've been so used to being a student. Yeah, that's kind of interesting and like a new experience. Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39 So, um, this is just from my knowledge of like, education majors, but when do you start getting involved in like, becoming like a teacher's assistant and like, teaching with them? Do you know? Amal Issa 19:54 Um, I think that'll be when I'm in the licensure program. So after I can make bachelor's, is what I would think. It's my first year in the teaching program, so I'm not really sure. Each school's different, butChyanne Phravoraxay 20:07 Oh, okay. And other than becoming a teacher do you think you're going topursue more education or any other plans, alongside being a teacher? Amal Issa 20:18 I don't want to stay in school very long. But um, originally I wanted to go into the medical field, but the years of schooling just put me off, and I love teaching, so I was like "Uh, I could do this instead!". But I'd love to be like an EMT or paramedic one day. Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:36 Oh, really? Amal Issa 20:36 Yeah. Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:37 Okay. Amal Issa 20:38 We'll see how that goes. I was gonna say like, I'm thinking of applying for- So St. Paul and Minneapolis, they have like an EMS Academy thing that they do every year, so I was thinking maybe I should apply for that next year. Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:55 That is so interesting, because of- because of your history, as like becoming an teacher and then the EMT, I wouldn't imagine, but that's interesting. When you start teaching, do you plan on staying like within Minneapolis? Amal Issa 21:09 That's a hard question. I'd love to travel outside, but at the same time Minneapolis is my home. I'd like to sort of give back in a way. So I think I'd teach here first, for at least a couple of years. Yeah. Unknown Speaker 21:25 Nice. You said there's problems with the youth like, do you? Can you pinpoint them? Or likeAmal Issa 21:34 There's a lot of problems with opioids right now. And I went to an event at Brian Coyle, a couple weeks ago, and they were just opening up the floor to bring like questions that the youth have forward about it. And they were just also educating the youth and their parents about the different types of drugs and how they affect you. And if you see someone having an overdose, what you could do. And they were like handing out in narcan too. So I thought that was very interesting and it's just like- It's been something that's been like kept quiet for so long. It feels- It feels nice to see it being brought up into the open and hear people talking about it and like trying to take steps forward to see how they could help people who are suffering from like with drug abuse. Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:33 Um, I think- Because we did watch a video. It was like by Somali TV, in class, and it was like this woman talking about her addiction, so i think, i don't know if that was like from them? Amal Issa 22:45 Was she sitting? Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:46 She was sitting and there's like two guys or like, I don't know. Amal Issa 22:51 Um, they held that like a week or- Two or three weeks after the one I went to. So I didn't really see that one. Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:58 Oh, but they were not connected like by an organization or? Amal Issa 23:01 I think they were. There's this group called, like the- Changing the Narrative, and they're the ones that held the first one and I think they might have helped organize that one too. Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:12 Okay and why do you think this is happening within the- within the community? Amal Issa 23:18 I really do not know. I don't know. It's- it's kind of like, a new topic to me too, because it's not something like, I've heard of. But where I grew up- Where we live right now, it's not really the safest and we like see things that people shouldn't be seeing. So it's like, not that new to me. But it's new to me, in the sense that I haven't heard of it happening in the Somali community as much. Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:49 Oh, okay. Thank you so much for coming them all. Are there any last things you'd like to say? Amal Issa 23:57 Not really. Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57 No? Okay. Thank you very much. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Aisha Sow
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Ruth 0:01 My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with with saying your name and when and where you were born? Aisha 0:15 My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born Augu...
Show more Ruth 0:01 My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with with saying your name and when and where you were born? Aisha 0:15 My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born August 26th, 2001. I don't remember the exact city I was born but I was born here in Minnesota, around Riverview or...Riverview, yeah. Riverview, Minnesota. Ruth 0:32 Okay. And, um, have you lived in Minnesota your whole life? Aisha 0:38 Um, for the majority of my life, I have lived in Minnesota, but from when I was nine months, all the way till I was about to turn four, I went—my parents took me to Guinea, their home country, in West Africa. Ruth 0:56 Okay. Okay. Um, so, just tell me a little bit about your family and their background. Aisha 1:03 Um, so my immediate family is my dad, my mom, and I have an older brother, and then it's me and then my younger brother. I'm a year and a half difference between me and my older brother, and seven year difference with my younger brother. And then my mom's, um, two sisters. They—they lived with us until her youngest sister got married 10 years ago, and moved to New York, but her other sister is still living with us. And then, my—both of my parents come from big families. My dad is one of 27 siblings, and my mom is the second oldest of seven. So yeah. Ruth 1:48 Okay. Um, so...um, before we, um, before this interview we talked and you mentioned that your parents are immigrants from West Africa. So, do you know anything about their experience with immigrating to the United States? And what that was like? Aisha 2:05 I wouldn't say that I know detail for detail, but I do know that, um—so my dad, he kind of left Guinea at 14 years old and then went to study at a boarding school in Sierra Leone for like seven years. And then after that, he got accepted into a university in Saudi Arabia, where he learned, um, where he got a degree in the Arabic language, and he learned a lot about, like, Islam and things like that. And so when he was in Saudi Arabia, my—um, he applied for my mom to come to the US. And so there is a visa lottery. I don't know the exact name for it. And so he applied my mom for it and she was able to win that lottery. And that's how they came to the US. And so also with like, their experience, I guess I could say that they experienced a lot of, like, struggle at firs because when they first moved here, they had to lived in like a cramped apartment with like six or seven other people and being like newly married, that's like, [laughter] that's not that great. And then, um, then they had me and my older brother, and so my parents at some point were both working two jobs just to—to try and, um, make money for us. And then, also, that was when my mom, uh, she was going to school. And it was her mother that went and advised her that she should continue her schooling. And so that's why, um, me and my older brother were sent back home to Guinea, because her mother said that she would be able to take care of us and then it's when she died, that my mom came back for us. Ruth 3:54 Okay. Um, and so, what—how long ago did they come here? What year was it? Aisha 4:01 They came here, I believe, 1999. Ruth 4:08 Okay. Aisha 4:09 Yeah, around there because they got married 1998. Ruth 4:14 Okay. Um, so, um, do you remember anything about being in Guinea when you were younger? Aisha 4:21 It's sad to say no, I don't remember. I wish I would have stayed there longer to have some memories because I was quite young when I came here. And also, um, I learned in my psychology class that the age that I came here, my brain was deciding for me what memories I should keep and what language I should keep. So when I first came back to the US, I had to, like, re-learn English so I could go to, um, preschool, and then that's how, um, I sort of forgot how to say and speak some things in my language. So it's been like a learning process for me in a way. Ruth 4:59 Okay. So, um, so, English is not your first language? Aisha 5:04 No, but my parents would say otherwise. [laughter] Ruth 5:08 Um, so another question I have is, um, so you mentioned that, um, you started wearing a hijab, um, when you were almost eleven years old? Aisha 5:22 Yes. Ruth 5:22 So is eleven the average age Muslim girls start wearing a hijab? Um, and if not, when is that? When is the average age that they start writing a hijab? Aisha 5:34 Um, so for me personally, I would say that hijab and the overall section--spectrum—with Muslims here today is there's no really specific average age that everybody puts on a hijab. But I guess I could say that, like, it's more implemented on girls to wear hijab by the time that they hit their puberty. Because in Islam, it's considered that oh, um, that's when you start, uh, when if you do sin they start counting against you. So from puberty and like younger than puberty, it doesn't count. But once you like get your first, um, menstrual cycle, then it counts for you. So that's why a lot of parents would go and ask their daughters to wear hijab or girls themselves would choose to wear hijab. For me personally, my story with hijab was that, um, my mom used to wear hijab, but I wouldn't—uh—but she would say that she wasn't wearing it to like the fullest, fullest extent that hijab was supposed to be weared. And so it was, um, around like my 11th birthday when she came up to me and she was just like, "Oh, do you wanna try out something with me and like, wear the hijab with me?" And so in that moment, I thought it would be like a fun thing to do. So then, uh, me and her both decided to wear it. And so she told me If I didn't like it, I could take it off. So, so far I still haven't taken it off. So I guess that's a good thing. Ruth 7:06 Okay. So, your mom, um, so, she started wearing one later? Aisha 7:15 Um, I would say, like, she—she kinda wore it in a turban style, I would say like in her early 20s that she was wearing it. But it wasn't until like she hit her, um, her early 30s that she actually started wearing it, um, to its fullest extent. Ruth 7:35 Okay. Um, so, another question I had is, uh, how did you feel when you first started wearing the hijab? Aisha 7:45 It was, um— I guess my experience with it is different in a way because right when I started wearing my hijab, a week or two later is when I went to my boarding school. So I was in sixth grade my first year there, so, in my boarding school, it was just all girls and were—we were all Muslim and everything. And we really did go outside and things like that, because we already had like a basketball court and like a big parking lot area to like, hang around with. So we never really like ventured outside into the—with like everybody else. So it was like a very like closed environment. So I guess I could say my first moments wearing hijab were good. But then after I left my boarding school, it was a struggle in the sense that I didn't—I never faced wearing hijab in public around so many people who weren't Muslim. And so having to deal with that, and like an identity crisis issue and like also like, um, uh,, how I wanted to dress and how I wanted to be seen by people. That was the thing that I struggled the most, I guess you could say my experience wearing hijab. Ruth 9:02 Um, so— when—so what, like, what was that like? Um, you said, like, you know, um, worrying about like wearing a hijab with other people that don't like, like—how did you feel about that? Aisha 9:15 Um..So I came—I left my boarding school, um, the summer of seventh grade. And so then that was going to—I was gonna to be going into eighth grade. And so I was already kind of nervous because my parents moved. So I was already in a new school district, and I didn't know anybody and then wearing hijab outside for the first time, and in a way, like, all the stuff that I learned in the boarding school about being modest and things like that, I tried to integrate it while I was going to school, but then I—I just felt like a—a vibe of isolation that people were—uh, were trying to push on me. No one was, um, directly—uh, what's it called? No one was directly saying, “Oh, I don't like you. And I don't like the fact that you're Muslim” or anything like that. It was more that I felt like a sense of like, people didn’t wanna be around me, especially for example, when I had gym class. And in gym class, you're required for like participation and things like that. And so every time we had to do a—a class activity, like football or basketball or things like that, there would be team captains and people would be choosing others or we have to get into a partner. And I remember I had such a hard time getting a partner that I had to go to the gym teacher and tell him, “Could you assign someone to be my partner?” because I don't know. Nobody wants to be around me. And then there was another instance when we were playing football and it was—I wouldn’t say that I'm the best person at playing football, but at least I wanted to participate. But no one will throw the ball to me. And I was like, How am I supposed to get my participation points if no one wants to let me in. And so in a way, I had to make my own, um, space. I had to venture out for myself. And I remember my eighth grade French teacher, I would always confide in her when I was struggling, and she would tell me, you know, you have to be able to put yourself out there, even if it's scary. And so I didn't really do that that much in eighth grade, like, in a way that some of the ways that I put myself out there was, um, being more outspoken in class and trying to like, find friends—a good number of friends that I could like count on. But it was when I entered in ninth grade that I became, like really active in clubs and things like that. Ruth 12:00 Okay. Yeah. Um, that’s terrible that those things happened. That’s not good. Um, so, um, another question is, how do you feel now wearing your hijab? How do you feel about it? Aisha 12:15 I honestly love my hijab. Some days we fight because it makes my head look a little weird, but that's okay. But the true essence and spirituality that I get from wearing my hijab, I guess is the best part because honestly, if I were to take it off now, I feel like I would be losing a part of my identity. Like sometimes even in my house, when I can take off my hijab in my house but sometimes I like the fact that like something is covering me because I'm so used to...used to wearing it for majority of the day because I'm not at home for majority of the day. So I—I love my hijab, and I love what it represents to me. And I just feel like this and my hijab has allowed me to find, um, a sense of contentment with my spirituality and religion. Ruth 13:12 Yeah. Any more details about that? Aisha 13:14 Um...I don't know, I guess it's been a long journey of just trying to find self discovery within myself. Because even when I felt like I was going through this identity crisis, I never really blamed it on my hijab. It was more that I blamed it on my lack of self confidence to be able to, um, love myself within my own skin. Because when I was younger, I never wore hijab and I dealt with, um, self confidence issues, especially being one of the only black kids in a predominantly white school. So it was hard to navigate that. And then just to throw on top—on top of it, not only are you one of the lowest minorities in your school, but now you're also a part of another minority because of the fact of your religion. And then it was also...um, I also, in a way had to force myself, um...how do I say this? I had to force myself out of being in my insecurities, because I knew I wouldn't be able to be the best person I could be academically and socially and personally, in my own opinion, um—I'm sorry, this is hard to put into words. But it was...um...I just had to find a way to make sure that I was confident in myself but also enough where I could be able to express myself in a way that I wasn't, um, taking away the true essence of my hijab, if that makes sense. Ruth 15:04 Yeah. Okay. Um, so you mentioned earlier that you went to an Islamic boarding school, for sixth and seventh grade. Um what, what are some experiences from that? Aisha 15:16 Oh, my God. I loved that boarding school. [laughter] I really loved it, because I—I felt like I was isolated in, um, regular public school since of the fact that I did have self confidence issues and I was also one of the only black people in that school, uh, school. So being in an environment where not only it was all girls, but then they’re all Muslim, and there's a—they're all from different areas of the world. And it was majority Indian Pakistani, but we had a few people who had, um, Arabic descent and then...and then there is me who is West African. Um, I’m trying to remember who else...Oh there was also people who were Bosnian, uh, from, um, Kosovo from like that European area. So that was interesting. I...I really enjoyed my time there because I felt like I found a sisterhood within all them. There was some older girls, some of the oldest were like 28. And then I was one of the youngest, I was 11. And, well, there was another girl who was younger than me, but she wasn't, um, old enough to enter into the actual school because she had...she had to be 11 and she was 10. But some of the experiences I remember is that every time during lunch, all of us would go outside into the parking lot, and we would play, um, kickball and I remember how much fun that was, or we would play basketball and just enjoying that sisterhood with them. And then the—in the weekends when all the commuter students weren’t there, and all of us girls that were dorming there would just hang out in somebody's room and just like stay up late at night and eat snacks and talk. And I remember, um, there was no technology allowed. There was like no things as like TV or anything like that. And they had a rule that you couldn't have any type of smartphone, it had to be like an mp3 player or stuff like that. And I remember all of us younger girls would go and try to sneak for the Wi-Fi password, and we would try to hide our phones and everything, and then our phones got taken away then we couldn't see them until like, the end of the year, but... [laughter] Ruth 17:50 Oh my gosh. Aisha 17:50 it was...it was fun. Um, I, um...what is it? There was also some things I didn't like about it. For one, there was also a girl who used to bully me there. And it wasn't...I guess it was just like bullying that happens with your age group. And I think in a way, it was...it was like a lesson of trying to teach me that I need to be able to be strong for myself. And so me and her have talked about it and we’ve like both forgiven each other, but that was like one of my experiences that I look back that I'm just like, wow. I never see it as like a painful...painful experience even though I felt like I went through a lot of pain in those moments. But now I just look at it as like a memory in the past that it—it hasn't really affected me in any way. And, um, I've just been lucky to meet some of those girls there. Sometimes I still message them on Snapchat, and it's so fun to see them on their, like, Snapchat stories. A lot of them got married and some of them have kids now, some of us are going to college and some of us moved out of the country. So it's—it's been fun. I really enjoyed it. Ruth 19:07 That's good. Uh, so...um, what were... Um, what were your classes like? Or anything else...? Aisha 19:21 My classes at the boarding school? Ruth 19:23 Yes. Aisha 19:24 Um, it—it was different in my first year and my...and my second year. In my first year, we actually had, um, like classrooms that we have here now. We had classrooms like that. So I would take, um, I had an English teacher, I had a science teacher, and I had a math teacher. And then we had, um, the boarding school’s like curriculum where we had to take Arabic classes and we also had to do, um, Qur’an memorization classes. So there's things like that. Did we take history? I think the language arts teacher and the history teacher were the same people because I can't remember if we did history, but yeah, so we did classes like that. And so it was kind of different programs in the sense. There was two programs that they offered at the school being like the Alima course and the Hidfh course. So the Hidfh course was more like you're learning a lot about Islam and like you're—you're not only learning about like the Arabic language, but it's like grammar and how to read it and things like that. And then you learn about the history of Islam and people and like what they—what works, they've done, so a lot of the older girls were doing classes like that. And then like the rest of us who were still in high school, we were doing the HIF program which was centered around memorizing, uh, Qur’an, but we also had secular studies like math, science, and English. And then for my second year, some things changed, instead of having like face to face teachers we did online. And that was kind of bad. Because, uh, I don't think anybody was able to learn well in that way, because you kind of had to sit there for almost like a good three to four hours just looking at a screen and trying to pay attention, even myself, like I would write down notes and things like that. And then we would get our tests back and whew, it would be rough. So then our teacher, she—the one who was supposed to be monitoring us—she had an administration feature or whatever that allowed her that if we failed the test, that she could allow us to retake it again. So that's how we passed our classes. Ruth 21:51 Okay. That’s—that’s good. Um, anything else you'd like to add about that? Aisha 21:56 Um, I do remember a lot of us, like when they got the computers in the second year, some girls would go and try and sneak onto the computers at night just to go on the internet and then they had to lock the doors of the computers were in. So that—there was some really interesting stuff that happened there. Ruth 22:19 Yeah. So was it a smaller school or like how many, like how many students? Aisha 22:26 Okay, this is hard, but I think about for the dorming students, I guess there was about 24 to 30 of us, because the school in and of itself was already small. I think it used to be like an old warehouse or auto shop, but it was really tiny. And then, um, and then the dorm, uh, the commuter students, I don't know how much they were, but I think maybe we got 50 plus the 50 for...throughout...for the whole school. But us dorming was about like 24 to 30. And some people would drop in the middle of the year and some people would come in the middle of the year. So it always changed. Ruth 23:07 Okay, okay. And so...um, another question I have is, how are you involved with your faith? Right now? Aisha 23:16 Do you mean like, um, activities in the community or in like my daily life? Ruth 23:22 Um, well, first like community, I guess. Aisha 23:24 Oh. in the community. Let's see, I used to be a lot more active after I came out of my boarding school than I am currently, I'm trying to improve that but we haven't gotten there yet. Um, so some ways that I've been, um, involved in the community...in eighth grade, I remember when I used to go to a Saturday and Sunday school to memorize the Qur'an and there would be flyers for, um, events. Like there was this one organization called Al Maghrib, and it catered to people around the United States and different countries and they would bring in, um, experts and like speakers and scholars and you would go there. They’d be teaching specific topics like every three months that they came and you were there for like a weekend learning or on rare occurrences there was like a double weekend where sometimes they just came on one day to like do like a story night. So I remember when I—when my cousin introduced me to that I really liked it. So I used to do volunteering for them a lot. So I used to be an usher. I would help people on which way was the bathroom and how to get into the—the classroom and um, seating and things like that. And then I think I did a little bit of registration and then I switched to food and food was hectic, because everybody comes during the break times and then-[sneezes] Excuse me. Um, counting all that money and everything was hectic. So I did that. And then there was another organization called Pearls of Hope. And it—and it was run by the founder, a sister Danielle. And so it was catering to young Muslim girls here specifically in Minnesota. And we did, um... We had talks about like Islam and things like that. And then we do activities and it was just more of a way to bring Islam about our lives and like create a sisterhood. And so they had, um, events, like for example, we had swimming events because for Muslim women, it's hard to go out to the beach and to the pool and just like swim because like, you know, covering your body and everything. So some of the events that they would have would be to rent out a water park. And we could go and just swim there. So I was a part of volunteeing events for that. And then we made our own little prom. We called it the Pearls Prom, so I used to help set up and things like that. At one point, my sister Danielle asked us—some of us older girls—to go and teach. My cousins were able to do it but I wasn't able to because of, like, schedule conflict. Um,’and there was also another organization called Building Blocks of Minnesota, and they just go around helping people who just newly became Muslim. And they do, uh, projects around this...uh, Minnesota for, um, helping feed—uh, feeding the homeless, um, canning food items to send it to people in need and they do a bunch of other stuff so I dabbled in that. And then also like my Saturday and Sunday school, I would help my teacher help people to memorize Qur’an so I did—I did some of those things. And then once like junior year and senior year hit it was—I was going through a lot of stress in that moment to be able to continue to doing all those things, but I hope to do it in the future. Ruth 27:03 Yeah, that’s cool. Um, so what does being Muslim mean to you? Aisha 27:11 We have a lot of things. [laughter] Um, what are... I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that answer out because, you know, experts or scholars in the religion go and say, this is this is—this is the criteria of what Islam should mean to a Muslim. And then I speak with, uh, young Muslim people that are around my age and then older Muslim people, and it just varies, but I think what it means to be a Muslim to me is just finding contentment with all the things that I've been blessed with and all the things that I haven't been blessed with because in a way, that's a blessing in itself because one thing I brought up earlier about my self confidence issues. It always made me feel like I was never enough, that I was never doing enough for myself, especially with like familial expectations and school expectations and friendships and, um, religious expectations. So when the identity crisis that I was talking about after I came from my boarding school, it was—it was a point where I felt really low in my spiritual life, because I felt like at one point, I wasn't doing it to better myself. I was just doing it because there was people there that kept asking, mainly my parents, they're just like, “Why don't you pay anymore? Why don't you do this?” But it was...it was hard to explain my struggles to them because of the—the cultural barrier of them being immigrant parents and being raised from a certain way and then bringing back culture from however long ago they left, like they left their country 20 years ago. So they're bringing their culture that they know from 20 years ago. And so we've had cultural clashes in my house and, um, language clashes and religion—religiosity clashes in my house. But for now, I don't really know what—how to answer that question, but I'm slowly figuring out, it's just yeah, I'm just trying to find like a sort of contentment within myself to be happy about my relationship with God, you know? I don't wanna ever think that what I'm doing now is enough, because in a way, I don't think it's ever enough. So in that mindset, I can always push myself to be a better Muslim and me pushing myself to be a better Muslim has helped me better myself in different ways, such as like having better manners. um, doing better things for not only myself but people in my community and just loving myself. So, that’s like all I can say for now. Ruth 30:08 Um, when you said you and your parents had clashes, like what did you mean by that exactly? Aisha 30:14 Um, there was, for example, like clashes, um, dealing with schooling and my parents had very high expectations. They still do, for me and my siblings to be a certain way and because in a way, they're just like, “Oh, we don't want you to struggle like we did” and all that other stuff, and sometimes they can push too hard. And so now that me and my older brother are older, we’re just like, “You need to stop pushing so hard because it makes it difficult for us to, um, try to reach those expectations that you're giving us.” And like, for example, um, with my schooling, they didn't really like what I wanted to go to school for, and so that's caused a lot of family tension and a lot of fights and crying and then like, also like, language clashes. My parents, um, uh, are not happy at the fact that me and my siblings can't speak the language well, but it's also because, um, we're—we’re not in a setting where my parents speak only their native language because my—my mom went to schooling here and my dad is a bus driver and so he constantly has to speak to people. And so they're one of the most fluently speaking, uh, English speakers in our community. So I can't even hear an accent in them. Other people say they hear but I can't. And so for them they’re—they feel like we're kind of losing our culture and becoming, um, too American in a way, so that's what I would say for clashes. Ruth 31:58 Yeah—um, how does being Muslim impact your daily life? Aisha 32:02 Oh, it impacts everything for—uh—if you’ve never heard this quote, there's always this thing that us Muslims say about Islam and that it's a way of life, like everything that I do is—there's always something in Islam that talks about it from like the morning I wake up to—to when I pray, to how I get dressed, how I eat to how I leave my house, how I speak to my parents, so what manners I'm supposed to have, so Islam really revolves around my life like I can never just separate Islam from my life like, Islam is embedded into my life. Ruth 32:43 Um...any—anything else you'd like to add about—about that? Aisha 32:53 Hmm...No. That’s it. That’s all I can say. Ruth 32:54 Okay. Um, so, speaking of your family, what are some of your family traditions? Aisha 33:01 Traditions like religious traditions or like cultural traditions? Ruth 33:05 Well, I guess, both, I guess, yeah. Aisha 33:07 Um religious traditions, I wouldn’t say there's like much that comes from my family specifically. But from what I know, like my mom really tried hard to make us really interested in our religion. So I remember when we were all able to start fasting, my mom would ask us to come and, um, decorate for Ramadan and when we were younger, we never did that. So it's fun to go and start decorating for Ramadan, and then like one year, I think I was in eighth grade or ninth grade, she bought like a frame—a wooden frame—and then we went and painted out, uh, letters that said “Ramadan. bhavik and everything and we painted it in pretty colors and then we put it on our front door so all our neighbors can see. And then she bought, um, a lighting thing that was in the shape of a crescent moon, and she hangs it on the window and so it, uh, it plays—not plays, shines—through the window at night. And then some other thing that we used to do, we used to go and bring food to the neighbors because they used to...it was Ramadan and so the whole thing about being kind and nice to your neighbors in Islam, we went and did that and then we started, um...when—after Ramadan finishes, and Eid comes, we go and give presents to each other and buy cake and that's...that's our religious traditions that I guess you could say. Cultural traditions...um, I don't know if there's like a specific thing that my family does over everybody else. I wouldn’t say that we do anything specific but I guess like, events that we go to are like baby naming ceremonies, like baby showers, and weddings, but there's no specific cultural traditions that my family does. Ruth 35:01 You mentioned putting that crescent moon in your window. What does that represent? In your religion? Aisha 35:08 So, in Islam we follow the lunar calendar. So it's more...I don't know how to explain this. But I know like Western countries and other countries follow the Gregorian calendar where revolves around the sun, and the lunar calendar is more focused on the moon. So there's an 11 day difference between both calendars. And so...so the months in Islam are always moving around every single year. They're never staying in just like one place, and also like the...the symbol of Islam is the moon and the star. So that's why we have a crescent moon. Ruth 35:49 Okay. Aisha 35:49 Yeah. Ruth 35:50 So, um, like for holidays, like what kind of things to do for—for that? Aisha 35:56 So we basically like have two holidays. There's Ramadan and then the—the two Eids. Uh, Eid Al-Fitr is after Ramadan, and Eid Al-Adha, is, um, during the—after [speaks Arabic] season finish—finishes. So what my family does is, whew, it's wild. So my mom, she likes to make like, uh, seasoned rice with like different types of meat and everything. And so the night before, she'll start cooking it, and then she'll cook into the night and then leave it so then she'll finish the rest of it in the morning. And then by that time, we're still—we're still on the last day of Ramadan. So we still have to pack up and go to the mosque to pray and break our fast and things like that. So the day before Eid is always a...a very stressful day. And then in the morning is even more stressful because everybody's fighting to get into the shower and like waking up and getting there on time. We’re never on time. [laughter] One thing that my mom always does is that she’ll wake everybody up and she’s like yelling around the house, she's just like, “We're gonna be late, we're gonna be late,” then everybody's ready and she's literally the last person who's ready. She's still in the shower when we're already done and everything. And so then my mom will wake up extremely early, or sometimes I don't even know if she sleeps, and then she'll wake up extremely early to finish cooking. And then, uh, everybody else wakes up and then we get dressed in our—the clothes that we bought for that year. And then we all pile into the car. And then we, I don't know how to say it in English, but we have, I guess, like a mantra that we go and say in the car. It's kind of like, um, I don't know what it means sorry, but it's like “Labbaykallah humma labbayk Labbaykallah la shareeka laka labbayk” and we say that in our car on the way—all the way to the mosque or the prayer area that everybody's gathering. Because it's, it's a good thing to do on Eid, to keep sending praise. And then we go to the mosque, find parking, then get into the area and find a place to pray because it's so packed. And then after that everybody prays, and then everybody says their hi’s and hellos, and everybody stays there to go and take pictures with each other. And then everybody goes back home. And then when we get home, we open our presents and my mom—who records us—and then my mom and dad call their family from all around the world because my dad has like five siblings that live in Europe. And then, uh, they have, uh, they have friends and family that like live all around the US. And then they still have a majority of their family that lives back home in Guinea. So they're calling people and they're asking us to go and speak to them and that's when me and my siblings run away. [laughter] And then after that we take our nap for like three hours and then wake up and then there's a barbecue for like the community to go to and then we go to the barbecue and that's how we do holidays. [laughter] Ruth 39:13 And...and remind me, what exactly are those holidays, like, celebrating, Ramadan and... Aisha 39:18 So, you...uh, for Ramadan it's more like a spiritual, like rememberance. It’s more of, uh, the significance of Ramadan is just to go and remember what poor people feel like, or people who may be less than—who are considered less than—by society in like status and like class or things like that. So it's just like thinking about them,and it's also like, uh, training your body mentally and physically to, um, to...what's it called...to resist and control your desires because they think of it as an analogy, like your stomach The whole day is like telling you, oh, I need to eat, but then your brain is telling your stomach, Oh, you can't do that until sunset comes. And so it's more like telling your inner soul that even though if you wanna do like a SIM, for example, you have to tell them “no, you can't do it.“ So things like that. And then the two Eids are just like a celebration thing. Yeah. Ruth 40:25 Olay. Um, so, celebration for...? Aisha 40:29 Like Eid Al-Fitr is like the celebration after like Ramadan because you are fasting. And then Eid Al-Adha Is like when everybody like sacrifices like a cow or goat or a sheep, because hedge season has finished. Ruth 40:43 Oh, okay. Aisha 40:44 Yeah. Ruth 40:45 Okay, cool. Uh, the next question I have is, uh, I think you mentioned this—you rallied about this a little bit before, but have you experienced any negativity because of your religion? And yeah, any experiences with that? Aisha 41:00 I would say I’m one of the few people who hasn't experienced any, um, negativity directly towards me. The only one that I can remember is in eighth grade when these group of boys—I was walking to my class early in the morning, and they were following behind me and they were just like, “No hats in school,” and I didn't know who they were talking to. And they were just like, “No hats in school,” and then they're just like “You stupid Muslim.” And so like, I whipped my head around. I was like [makes a shocked noise] And then like they all walked away. So then I reported them to the principal and all that other stuff, and then the kid got in trouble. And then he wrote me an apology note. So I still have the apology note. [laughter] So I guess that's one of the only experiences, but I would say that I am aware that other Muslims, uh, for example, my cousins and everything, have gone through, um, direct hate by people, and I know some people go through like the worst things like having acid thrown on them or like getting beat up by people or being like, bullied at school. I'm blessed that I haven't had to face that, but I do, I have felt the isolation that it comes with, and how people would rather not want to be around you because of the fact that you're Muslim because I can't think of any other way because they don't know me personally. So, I think that's all I can say on my personal experience. Ruth 41:40 Aww. And any, do you know, um... any of your parents’ experiences, maybe...? Aisha 42:33 Like, I wouldn’t say, um...I can't remember if there's specific instances where people have called them out on being like Muslim, but I know like my dad, he gets a lot of racism while driving at the bus, and like people are just like rude and disrespectful. They're like drunk people on the bus so they say like, all sorts of things. And there's always people that are asking him like, “Where are you from?” and all that other stuff. So I know like my dad goes through that, but I can't remember if my mom has experienced anything directly. Ruth 43:09 Okay. Well, that’s good that you haven't experienced... Aisha 43:13 Yeah. Ruth 43:14 ...negative things, that’s good. Okay, next question I have is, unrelated to that, but, um, what are you majoring in? What are you planning on majoring in? Aisha 43:25 That’s a story! Do you wanna hear all—the whole story? Ruth 43:28 Sure. Aisha 43:29 Um, so... Originally, in eighth grade, I really like—I forgot how I got into it but somehow I got into it—Um, I had to I was in this competition thing about, um, oratorical speech contest. And so we had to write about our future and what we wanted to do as a future job. And so I remember in that instance, I couldn't remember anything until like two days before the thing and I wrote about how I wanted to...um...what's it called?...I like the brain and I was interested in learning stuff about the brain. And I think I mentioned a little bit of psychology in there. Fast forward, I didn't win the thing, but I still like psychology. So, um, ninth grade and tenth grade, it was more about me searching about what I wanted to do with psychology and things like that. And so when I finally mentioned to my parents that I wanted to do psychology, they were not very happy about it. Because my dad wanted me to do something in the sciences and he didn't really like the idea of mental health sciences Because like, they—like a stigma he held about it with like, religiousness and all that other stuff. And then, um, my mom wanted me to be a nurse. She's a nurse herself. And so like, in my community, especially, every single woman or every other woman in my community is a nurse. Like, no other...all of them are nurses. So like I literally come from a whole family line of nurses, can’t escape it, even remember studying to be a nurse. So...so, and it’s because for them, nursing was the easiest way and fastest way that they could finish their education and start making enough money to support their families. So I get that that's why she would want me to do nursing. And she also says that it's like really broad and everything, but I've never really been interested in nursing. So that's kind of been hard. And so then, um, what is it? So then I was just like, oh, you know, like, I see the way my parents struggle from paycheck to paycheck. So, um, I changed psychology into psychiatry. I don't really like psychiatry as much because I don't like the idea of just like giving medicine to people. I don't want people to be addicted to medicine since we have such a big epidemic of, um, opioids and drugs here in America. And we're also like a very, um, medically dependent country when it comes to curing people of like diseases and stuff like that. Not that that's a bad thing, but we also have high overdoses so. And so, um, it was literally in my senior year where I decided to, um, pursue psychiatry. And then I came here to Augsburg because I didn't wanna major in biology because I don't like biology by itself, I think that's boring. And so I found out that Augsburg here has a biopsych course, so now I'm majoring in bio psych. So I'm pretty excited about that. I have yet to take any psychology classes from here, but I'm excited for it. And hopefully I'll be able to do something with it. Ruth 46:50 So, and you're in biology right now, right? Aisha 46:53 Uh, yes. Ruth 46:54 And how—or, do you...do you like it? Aisha 46:57 The... [laughter] Um, the course—I’m surprised at how well I'm doing in the class. I would say, um... I wouldn’t say I hundred percent like it, but at least I understand it enough to like, like something. Like I...I like learning about some of the animals and freshwater species and the geology and things like that. But the specific sciency stuff about biology... Ha ha ha no way! (laughter) Yeah. Ruth 47:29 [laughter] Um, uh, what do you plan on doing with that—with your major? Like, what career do you think? Aisha 47:35 Um, so my plan is to go to med school with it. And hopefully when I finish my med school, I'll be in my third or fourth year. Hopefully I'll be able to decide what I really want to specialize in, whether it's like emergency medicine, psychiatry or functional medicine, and then after that go to residency for some years, finish that. And then after that I want to be able to work...uh, work and get work experience for some number of years. And then I wanna branch out and open up my own business that caters to not only like the Muslim community, but other communities here, nationally and internationally. So hopefully it works out. Ruth 48:22 Okay. That’s cool. Um, so...um, why—like why do you—why are you deciding that you want to go to medical school? Aisha 48:31 Um, it may sound like for selfish reasons, but like I said before, like, um, my parents, I see the way they struggle just to get a paycheck. And sometimes we had to go living through paycheck to paycheck. And so I wanna be able to not only do something that I'm passionate about, but also make a lot of money for it, because I don't want my kids to feel, uh, to feel like they can't have something because I don't have enough money to pay for it. And I also wanna be able to like pay for things and not have to be like, uh, be like a ration for stuff like, oh, how am I supposed to pay this and the kids school? And dadada. And I also wanna be able to pay for their, um, uh, what is it? College. I’m trying to build that generational wealth, you know what I’m saying? Ruth 49:26 Yeah. Aisha 49:27 And then also like, I guess, having the knowledge of not only, um, psychology and different parts, but also knowing the body and also understanding how to administer medicine. I feel like that would be a big advantage to me to being able to better help my community and not—and not just going through it from one single view but going through it from multiple views. Ruth 49:54 Okay. All right. And those are all the questions I have, uh, is there anything else that you want to add or anything else you want to talk about that we didn’t get to talk about earlier? Aisha 50:05 Um, nothing comes to mind. But I would just say, for anyone...who... Um, for anyone who wants to like diversify their, um, uh their like five in mind and everything, be open to meeting new people, whether they look like you and whether they don't look like you, because you can learn so many different things from—from so many different people. And you'd be surprised that where you can learn some stuff from and what people you learn it from. So, be open-minded. Don't stress yourself out and live life beautifully. Ruth 50:43 Aw, that’s nice. Okay, thank you so much for talking with me and sharing your experiences. Aisha 50:50 Yeah, you're welcome. Ruth 50:51 Okay. Aisha 50:51 Thank you for inviting me. Ruth 50:52 Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Abubakar Hassan, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to interview...state your name, please. AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan. MM: How's your day? AH: Pretty good. How are you? How ar...
Show more MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to interview...state your name, please. AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan. MM: How's your day? AH: Pretty good. How are you? How are you, man? MM: not bad, you know, doing well. Thank you very much. So I'm here to interview Abubakar at Augsburg library. Today is December six 2019, and thank you for participating in this Abubakar AH: yeah no problem. MM: And would you please start giving us information about your background and education please? AH: Yeah, of course, of course. Um, my parents are Somali. I grew up in Minnesota, but I left when I was a kid. I went to Egypt to live there and six years I traveling with my parents. Then I came back around 2016 I had to come back because I was losing my English, and I wanted to get back where I was before...uh so around 2016 I started sophomore year in high school...uhm...I wasn't that strong of like my education It was kind of pretty weak because I would be gone from a long time from America so when I came back I just I had to start all over again, my English, my grammar wise meeting new people's starting like-starting new school again start fresh get you know get I have to get-I have to get used to the winter now because like I haven't been winter for so long, and I forgot about it when I came back. So as you knows, it's been a while now. Now. I'm just Augsburg university student I'm studying doing my work and I'm just doing me I'm in a team. I'm doing a track field. I'm just yeah doing me right now MM: very good. AH: Yeah. MM: And you said you went to high school right? AH: Yeah. MM: and what was the name? AH: I went to Edina high school. AH: Yeah. MM: And that was a big school wasn't it AH: Yeah it was a big school basically was the thing was the top five school. MM: Wow. And whats the graduating class. AH: uh.... MM: Estimate? AH: The estimate? I-i'm no 100% sure but I think it was around 950 of us. MM: Wow. So almost 1000 right? AH: Yeah, it was it was crazy. MM: So that was a big school was it? AH: It was definitely a big school. MM: And you really loved it didn't you? AH: Edina? Not really. Uhm...(Laughs) It was a great school where I started but you know, it was it was a lot a weird school. You know, it was it was a white school. So i-it was just, you know, it was pretty weird. I like to teachers those cool people there. I love the sports. You know, it was like it There is, it got me a good memories, you know? MM: Speaking about memories, so uhm what do you recall about your childhood? Ah: My childhood? MM: Yes....Yeah, so let's like, go back to like until you were a kid. AH: Cool. Okay. So as specifically you're talking about when I was a kid, I was a kid and of course I lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but not Minneapolis just Minnesota. I lived here when I was like, What? 10 nine years old. So I haven't I haven't been in middle school for so long in here because I skipped for so long. I came back freshman year. My childhood wasn't that you know, that fun? It wasn't that difficult also to but it was. It was a great memory of my m- when I was a kid. You know, I went to a uhm like religion school. I've learned bit-I've learned about some of my religion. You know, I went to I went sport. I went to uh-I sometime work sometimes but I actually don't because my parents won't let me because I was too young. But I wanted to work, you know, to help out myself and help out others too and my parents and my family, but my parents won't let me. So yeah, my childhood wasn't that difficult but it was it was there was a lot of good memories in there MM: Yeah as I can see. And as a child, you know, do you remember where like where did you live, go to school? AH: uhm School wise I probably don't remember but I think I lived in Plymouth. uhm I lived there..uh I think I think two years...uhm no, no I lived in I lived there for a while lived in a while. For school wise I don't remember hundred percent because I left long times. I don't remember what school that I go to. MM: Makes sense okay. And uhm...what did you remember, remember about your parents as a child, not now, specifically, but back then? AH: As my parents? MM: yeah, what did you remember best about your parents? AH: I mean, I mean, they're same as who they are now. My parents are hardworking, they're funny they're smart. I love them both through a bottom bottom my heart I wish they can be held you know happy together their are no hope they'll be you know, hope they go heaven you know inshallah...And uh but my parents, you know, they, they were they came from Somalia to here you know, there was a both were immigrants, they didn't know what they were doing Minne- Minne in the USA. So they had to work hard, you know, because they had the had of kids, you know, they had they get it they have to get money. They have to save up they had to get a house he had you know, you know, health insurance. You have to get everything ready. They're hard working people I can see and I want to do what they did. You know, I want to follow that. their footsteps so I can repay them back what they did for me? So they're are good parents and I love them so much. So I-they're great. They're great. T MM: Mhm. They're great parents. That's very good to hear. And are you an only child or did you have nore siblings? AH: No, I'm the middle child. MM: Wow. Yeah. So you get the most hate. AH: Mostly Yeah. (Laughter) I'm also getting most of the hate in from the brothers and sisters. MM: All the backfire huh? AH: Yeah, the backfire? Yeah, most parents look up the middle, I look up the older and also talk about the youngest, you know, the middles like it was okay, you know, like, hang in there. You got it, like (chuckles) in the middle does not matter. So it's like it's cool, but also, you know it's okay, MM: So were you uh were you an obedient child with the mischievious one? AH: Um, that's a funny, I was kind of both because I was good, and I was also bad. So I was like, I was a kid. You know, we don't care as kids wise. We don't have Both we have like, we could do bad or good thing the same way you know what I'm saying but I was I was both to be honest. I was both. MM: Mhm. Wow. And how many people are you in your family? AH: Uhmm in total right now? I think there'll be seven, eight or nine of us. MM: Wow. AH: Yeah. MM: that's a big family. AH: It is MM: and you're right there in the middle. AH: Yeah. Yeah.(Laughs) MM: that's actually good to hear. So you are the middle child. of...household of seven plus your mom and dad. AH: Yep. MM: And you are as of now 18 years old am I correct? MM: 19? Okay. AH: 19(Whispers) AH: yeah, I'm 19 MM: Okay. And you you do have older siblings and right that you do look up to? AH: Yes, I do. They're the-Yeah, the the older than me. I very look up to them because, you know, they made mistakes. They made a path where they were looking for and I want to follow their footsteps. You know, they told me like, Hey, don't do this. You know, like, hey, follow follow our steps but not exactly, you know, you got to make your own path to follow us. And I'll follow don't make mistakes that we did, you know, do the right things, but don't do the bad things we that we did you know, I'm trying to look up to them and be a better Brother, you know, and, and also, you know, I have a little sisters too show them like hey be you know, be be a good girl, you know, like, follow us and I'm teaching my sisters and my brothers, you know, be a good, you know, school and having our education education is number one first. MM: Yes. And uhm speaking of family...let me ask you a question. Did your family have any special traditions such as things they did on holidays or maybe birthdays? AH: Well, I don't know about birthdays. I mean, I think that do...uhm but not my parents. I think my brothers like wives they do like when their kids have a birthday party. They do mostly but it was specifically my parents. Probably like Ramadan.(chuckles) Like mostly like Islamic religions traditions, that's it but like nothing else because they don't care. And this one we don't we don't follow those because they're like, my parents are like, religios-religios all like, but they don't they don't care about birthdays or anything else like that. MM: They just cared about your education. AH: Yeah. MM: Working hard. AH: Yeah. MM: getting the job done. AH: Yep, of course. MM: Yeah, so um, just tell me about your parents...or like their background, how they're working. AH: yeah. Um, so, my, my dad side, you know? My grandma, I never met my grandma because she died when I was born. like two months later when I was not, no of course when I was born. My grandpa, he's still alive. I can't meet my grandma, my grandpa because he said I have to memorize the Quran and I have to know Somali to visit him. So that's the one thing I can't do. I almost finished the Quran, but Somali, I'm really tough to learn, but I'm trying my best to meet my parents and my, my mom's side, my dad's side. My mom's side there that their everywhere guarantee. I like my mom told me, their family, the Sister whatever they like the everywhere else like I want to meet them. You know I want to see you know, my parents My parents side so Starting later on, I want to slowly get to my traditions from my meet my generations me my life, my parents side me my, basically I want to see my family tree before I die. That's my that's basically my main goal. I want to see my family, the whole family, you know, I want to I want to know, my generations I want to see I want to know by stories on what I want to see what happened, you know who, what is like, I know I want to I want to know everything from my generation. MM: Yes, that's a very important thing to do. Also and As a kid growing up where were you? AH: I don't have a lot of details but-I lived in Plymouth, but later on I lived in Egypt MM: like you said, Egypt okay, so how each like. AH: crazy man if you want me to tell you the whole story Egypt is actually a beautiful place is very hot very hot. The people are funny I guarantee that some people come with like the first days they think like oh my god that people are rude or like they're not be nice No, like I when I just moved there is I already loved it because people were funny people were you know, there's some rude people but like they're they're so they're so funny. And and I'll slowly learning their language, like learning the culture, learning like what like what would they eat, what they do, how they sleep and what they talk about. They're play, you know, I played I played soccer like, three o'clock A.M like, that's that's a crazy thing you know, like we play football during even Ramadan. Like it's just crazy, like Egypt is a beautiful spot and a beautiful place to learn, like who you are and what is your religion you know, you know it's a it's a great spot to visit and I love it I like I want to go back again like hopefully later on, you know, and I want to have kids and I want to show them like this is this is the place when I figured out myself and who I am and like learn what is my religion like religion and all that. So we're Egypt is a beautiful place in you know, it's not a great place to live but as a great place to visit and to understand, like Islam. If I'm talking specific, it's a great place to understand. MM: Yeah, so yeah, and also leaving America and going on with Egypt. How do you like weigh it out America versus Egypt? You know lifestyles. AH: LikeMM: how would you explain that AH: Like compare? MM: Yeah. AH: Well, if I say comparing like when I first came to-when I first came to Egypt, the people at the airport very friendly for some like, very friendly. You know, they gave me a kiss On the cheeks like Both I was like, Wait, what? I was confused. So, you know, like they're, they're very nice. They're cool people I love them. When I came to Egypt came to USA matter of fact, you know, it was I came during uh heat, you know, summertime it came in around May, so later on and on when winter came, I didn't like I was like, Whoa What is this, you know, because I forgot snow. So people were like, there's I didn't-did'nt like the energy you know, I didn't I didn't like the vibe because there's still some negative vibe in America and I didn't like it because it's like what is this you know there's some people looking at you like like why are they looking at me like this you know there's some this there's still negative vibe. like I'm not saying just America this everywhere but like if I compare them in America is definitely America the you know, because I just you know is the vibe in the energy how America brought to me and how broad the Egypt it's just, the scales way different 100% way different MM: And as a cultural standpoint you would they would very be you know different right? AH: yeah yeah even a cultures religions you know I've Egypt Br--. I can hear you know the prayer time I can hear like one What time do I have to go the prayer what time I can hear it. Like in America, I can't, I have to look what time is Prayer, you know, and I have to drive there and I have to like basically pray. But there's also less people there in Egypt. I can hear the prayer. I know I don't want to I don't want to know the time I can hear and just go there and in like, the mosque is just packed. And that's what I love about it because the brother and sisters are together and learn about religion. That's what I love about it. So it's like, Is it so it's a whole different you know, thing when I came to Moved to Egypt to USA is just a whole different vibe when I came there so MM: Mhm. And also where you live in Egypt? AH: uh I lived in Cairo. MM: oh Cairo. AH: Yeah. It's a it's aMM: part of the country huh? AH: yeah It is a beautiful It's a beautiful spot. I love it is people that I think Cairos of best spot is to go visit. So let me talk about you a little about Cairo. So Cairo is is a big is a big city, it is. I love it there. You know, there's the Red Sea is beautiful. Alexandria is beautiful. You know, like later on I heard of this of myth. There's a city under the water. MM: Wow. AH: Yeah, MM: You talking about Like, like Atlantis, AH: basically like that. Some people I even I visited there too. I I went scuba diving, scuba diving with my friends. So we were just like, hey, well, this is this is check if we you know if this is a lie or truth, you know, we did we scuba dived Do we at least like later, five minutes later we thought we didn't see nothing but we got deeper deeper in the water. And we did saw we saw statues we saw, like buildings we saw, like so many things. And I was getting scared. I was like shit. I don't want this. So, so I was, the myth was true. I was it's a beautiful spot. I swear Alexandria is the most beautiful place I've visited. You know is is big you know the water is beautiful the people are awesome people are nice friendly all the food is so delicious also too and I love it so yeah is I don't know if you know every heared fuul is known as fuul the GrateMM: like beans yeah AH: it's delicious man. I love it. MM: You're absolutely true AH: is is I mean there's another word but I forgot what it is. But it's great in the morning you know there's some some beans with some bread and you know some like also some water bro I've been eating so many healthy food.(Laughs) I'm not gonna lie like I've been eating healthy when I came back here I was like geez MM: It's like it it's like the best environment for a person. AH: Yeah it is. Yeah for real but yeah man I'm sure Cairo it is a beautiful spot and I love it. I like it. You should also visit there two man. MM: Yeah. And um, let's go back to comparing you know, USA and Cairo since you know you liked here in there, you know AH: compare like Cairo and Minneapolis? MM: Yeah and um, you did live in Minnesota. Yeah. All your life, right? Plus when you're traveling outside of the state. So, racial-wise, how would you say It affects you? AH: Raciali-wise? I think it's like-I mean, okay, Egypt they're not racist they're just like they're going to say you're not...you're not like Egypt you're not you know egyptian you're not Arab you know, but like they're not the never racist you know, they love you when you hear you know, they love it. They love us, but they're not gonna say like, a you know, bad things to us then I look back now. They disagree know, when they're mad, they're mad. You know, they're gonna say you're not one of us but later on they're gonna apologize but if you can compare to that in America America is 100% I guarantee probably bad vibe and like the racism is over there I guarantee that this still going I think it's still going it's still out there some America people are still racism. So...uh.. to compare, I can say probably 80% sent to the people in Egypt was probably 80% like not racist people there or probably 89 but in America guarantee of this probaly like people who are I guarantee you probably like 70% probably 60 Yeah, what I experienced, you know, it's not just Minneapolis or Minnesota, this other state and other country and you know, MM: Yeah you see the news. AH: Yeah, it's the news, man. The news is there's this still going on bro there's still there's still hatred like I don't get it you know why why do they hate us? You know we're-we're we're them but different color like what that what does that make a different you know you know I'm saying but like I you know I've been my experience so many times and you know I don't like it you know Michael Jackson said you know it doesn't matter if you're black and white and I know that in the impact me I was like, if that doesn't matter to us why there's still hatred you know? I don't I don't get it is it just some people are just dumb and they can't they can't move on. They just like all these people just bad doing is like okay what we doing to you first of all, you live in your life where we live in our life. So why are you trying to ruin ours you're not trying to ruin yours. It's like you think you you're trying to say Americans Americans-the United States is a free country. is a free land. Really is not you should you should just change that because that's all a lie. You know? When I first here I-I just hated it. I really hated America because this is all free land. People are nice but that's that's the dust is full of crap. It's just a lie You know, people just care for the money wise the fame. But here's the education is very high. Yes, I'll give you that education is very high here But people wise or not it just just rude and ridiculous r------- and I just......Oh, I'm so sorry man. I was going in I got I got overthink myself. I'm sorry I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. Uhm So, but comparison man, I don't know they're both different. But to be honest, whatever is home is home I'm not saying I loved each other more than America Because I can't because the both of my homes above love it. So either way, whatever makes me happy what it makes me in the best country you know, I live in other you know. So yeah, man. MM: Yeah and while you were at Egypt, you know how would you say when you were you were struggling when you're there you know off course yeah the language adaptation of ours. Would you like to talk about that? AH: Yeah, yeah of course man either Living Egypt being the first guy you know, knowing-not Arab is is really hard because I understand nothing, you know, at least my dad had some friends there who understands they can help us. But it was hard it was very hard to understand the people is hard to go outside to make friends even hard to go grocery shopping, you know, it was just hard man even hard even the prayer time. I can you know, I can hear that even though Friday prayers I under I didn't understand nothing. But later on, you know, months months, you know later when I was learning understanding and becoming one of them. I understand I felt happy because I understand where we're the same where it was like you know like I can come back you know if someone example of there's a fight or there's like discussions or something like that I can come I can join in I can't, I cannot stop it or like do anything with it. So I'm really happy that I learned it. But like, it's been years, to be honest has been years now. So it's slowly slowly I'm forgetting the language what I've learned by don't want to lose it because I want to go back and we like we learned it again. And I want to I Arabic to stick with me because I was the number one thing I want to learn for like you know, because is, is the language of the Quran you know to understand the book is still he knows the is the words of Allah and Is is great to understand it if you know if you know the language. MM: Yeah, that's true. And how did your life change? Did you feel grown up? AH: Oh of course man. When I first came there I feel like a baby when I came back here, I felt like a man. You know, I was like oh man like I came back but see my brothers and sisters, you know? I don't know. I think I feel like I've matured You know, I've I feel like I'm mature Even now I feel like I'm even maturing than before you know? So it's it's like that you know is I like it I like it. I like I like I like me now that before because me now before is way better because I understand who I am I understand what's wrong was right I understand what I'm going to do my future I know what it's going to happen, you know, not that kind of way but like you know I'm saying like No Okay, this is wrong. I gotta do this. If I if I'm going to do this, I know it's going to happen you know that it was a punishment that I'm going to say. But yeah man. MM: Uhuh, and also which significant historical events have taken place during your lifetime AH: significant... MM: you could take your time... AH: So Okay, okay. I don't know a lot of details but I can say that you know, I came from Egypt you know the story I was locked in I didn't know English my education was weak. So it was kind of hard for me I never I never think of-of graduated high school with scholarships and having like a 4.0 GPA, like it's even surprising....or you can say 4.0 I'm say 3.9(Laughter)...but I will say 4.0. but... is I'm I'm just surprised and happy that I even graduated. You know, I even during the graduation, their principal announced the, the three best up students and I was one of them. So he called the all three Students, but those three are always in them. So he called the other cut in on one of them. One of them. That was me. He called my name up and I had to stand up and I had to say something, you know, called three best students. And now I was happy I even I even I was in it, you know, I didn't knew. I didn't know I was in it. But like, I was surprised when I looked at my parents, you know, I was like, wow, like, he was the best fit students. So it was like, I was I'm happy that I was and you know, I'm gonna miss my friends. I miss my friends. You know, I used to know who was like going to college away but like, you know, I still contact them and hang out with them. You know, as he was great. You know, my life story has been great. That's one of its But mom, my second one...I don't know why I followed my sports. Sports wise, you know, I been playing soccer for since I remember. You know, I was a always, you know, the fastest kid, you know, I was running, running every time going to condition a ball back forward, back forward back forth. Later on in high school year, I realized that, you know, soccer wasn't me, you know, I thought it was but it wasn't me. Then I tried to ice you know, I tried track and I was fast and I made it on the varsity captain. Like it was crazy. I was like, what how like, but I mean, I'm even happy that I even made it you know, and track was my thing. You know, that's why I'm doing track in college because I love running for some reason. I just love running....except running run away from my dad's belt.(Laughter) But is you know, all man it was it was a great experience. I love it. I'm still running till now. I'm still running. I'm trying to find When's is the last finish line. MM: There we go. And speaking of school, uh how would you say about this was your family financially comfortable? AH: Um, I can say yes and no I'm gonna say To be honest, I don't know I think the both because some of the we have to use some of the government some of us like the other guys we got it, we can take care of it. But like it does almost a almost a no to be honest but I'm 100% sure, you know some parents they say, Oh no, it's fine but later on is fine but you know, I'm not hundreds of sharing I'm apparently still keeping Thanks for me, you know, but like to be I feel like they're I think they're fine. They they can take care of themselves. They're fine. The financial aid and health wise I think we're good. You know. MM: Mhm. And when we're talking about, you know, financial whar was your first job, you know, how old were you at the time? Oh, how did you get the job? AH: My first job was in Egypt. MM: Wow. AH: Yeah, I was a song some clothes, like pillows clothes, like any like closer, like ripped and it was my first job ever, you know my dad, my dad, my you know he didn't want me to work there but I wanted to because I wanted some money and like helped him too. But he told me to don't do that. No just quit and it's like Forget it, you're too young. But later on I my second job I first actually officially Job was McDonald's. It was it was McDonald's man. I'm not embarrassed with that. Because McDonald's actually like taught me so many things like patients like helping customers and like understanding what the like what is going on like yeah to be faster you have to be like, you gotta you gotta do things right you know, so McDonald's taught me a lot of things you know the fooder Okay, you know the stuff disgusting but I still I still eat it. Sometimes you know, you know, food or Good buy like McDonald's was my first job ever, you know? It was a great experience. MM: Mhm. And you know, since we're talking about jobs, those the two jobs you had in your life only or did you have more jobs? AH: I had more jobs Yeah. And more jobs. My first wants McDonald's. Second of all was in a gym Planet Fitness. My third job was on Costco. My first my fourth one was in is in homecare I'm working right now and recently was a great job I love it I'm not gonna quit anything that is a good job and I'm just like I'm done and taken care with for clients on I have to give them meds and just watch them do it cool guys man they are independent, they're funny, and they're making me laugh. I make them laugh. We do things in the house. You know we clean up we know we vacuum we're cleaning you know shovel the road. Would like our sidewalk You know, I'm saying it was it was a good you know, those those guys are good you know the funny and I love them you know take care of them. They're good guys. MM: Yeah and um when we're talking about you, um what physical characteristics in do people in your family share? AH: so as least we mean by that? MM: Like....people in your family like what are their characteristics?....you know like the way you guys act I think you guys resemble each other? AH: Well, okay. I understand now. I think it's mostly from like my dad side mostly because like the boys I think we're just like funny cuz my dad is funny man he like he's he's a talker. I'm not gonna lie. He's a talker and when he's Start something he he goes he cannot stop. And you know that's one sometimes I board like when he sees friends will check Hey dad look over there you know, Jay avoided because he talks to talks you know my dad talk I love about that you know he's nice funny he's a target guy sometimes you see no he's a serious man also too. So I think we get that from him. And from the girls side I think my sister's got from my mom, you know, they my mom have you know, she she loves fashion she loved like showing off like she, you know, she's funny too. She's my normal mama queen. I love her. She's my queen. Like I love taking over, you know, take it out, you know, she she likes showing off. She's funny. She's a hard working person. I think we all think we got them from them, you know from our brothers sisters. We got both of them, you know, half and half. got both of them. MM: So You Think You resemble your dad and your mom also home? AH: Yeah, yeah. MM: That's really good. And what part did religion play in your family actually? AH: So... uh we played we're Islams we're a Muslim family...uhm we're Muslim family we believe in only one God in names a lot we have prophet named Mohammed (S.A.W). So our religion is pretty is pretty strong, you know is is the most peaceful peaceful religion and I back then I never knew was actually what is Islam you know i and when I went that's why I went to Egypt and I wanted to know understand what is what is like Islam but first place I actually went was Kenya but I've been there only for two months at that point it was I really hated to Kenya I actually did. So that's why I went to Egypt to talk about Egypt more than Kenya because Kenya was Really not my place but the king is beautiful was not me. But Egypt was actually a strong religion and I want to talk about it because Egypt is a religion country and I love about also to and I'm awesome I'm a proud of Muslim I'm happy I'm happy by that I'm not I'm not gonna lie or hide anything about it but my whole family's Muslim You know, my whole family, my brothers sisters mother parents, the world Muslim my parents taught me about Islam prayers, and we know what we're talking about but Ramadan we're talking about aid and you know is so traditions you know, talk about our parents taught me about generations, what is Ramadan? What is he What is this lamb bonus Muslim told me so many things about my religion, that who I am right now that's why I'm standing up as a Muslim men and you know, helping others and teaching one another in helping our brothers and sisters, you know? MM: Yeah. And also did you go to you know, religious services on a regular basis? You know, in your case, a mosque? AH: Yes, of course. Yes, of course. I have a mosque right next to my house. I pray Yes, of course I pray but you know, slowly, slowly, slowly, you know, I'm slowly losing it, but I want to get back up again. You know, I want to get back who I was because America is slowing me down To be honest, man, like, I want to pray. I'm getting back up again. And we'll start praying I'm trying to become in me, way back then. And I don't want to lose that. MM: That's very true. And uhm Abubakar uh, how do you actually see yourself in 10 years future? AH: in 10 years? As the one thing I there, man I'm not God I don't know my future back see myself right now. Probably going to help people I'm helping myself helping my family my parents and I want to understand myself and figure out what is my major and right now understands my majors computer science, you know, I'm doing game designs I'm doing graphic design soldier, I'm do Web Designs, computer sciences. Me, man. I'm doing very interesting. Well, yeah, I love tech and I am a nerd. You know, but, you know, I want to keep doing what I'm doing a number of future futures to feature can change, no future can change whatever path I'm going, I can change the wheel and my future can change like an instant you know, so whatever happens happens, but I want to make it I want to make it successful and make my parents proud and and soon later get married man first, I gotta take care of myself before I can can't take care of someone else. You know, you know, pay And my parents said, Oh, I want to get married. I told him said how I can take care of someone else. But even I can take care of myself. That's even more struggle for me. So I was like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go take my time travel, I'm gonna do me, I'm gonna do my education. I'm gonna have fun. You know, later on when I'm started getting serious. Yeah, I might find the lady I love and but I know get down on one knee and tell her Hey, be might be my wife, you know? But yeah. as just one step at a time, just one step at a time. It's like a ladder, you know, you got it, you gotta, you gotta you gotta find the exit. You know, basically, you know, I'm saying like, you have the key, but you gotta find the door to unlock it. You know, if you even found the door and your end is the right one. I think your your life will be successful and you may be great in your life. MM: So which leads me to my our last question. Yeah, and you know, since Abukar-Abubakar since you are one of the youths of this community. How do you think you know, with these dreams you have? How do you think you will build your legacy, you know, in the future? AH: by bringing brothers and sisters together, you know, because I see I can see myself. Our brothers and sisters are slowly separate and away and I don't like that. I want to bring it back together and helping the community and bring in as one Isaac Islam and I want to build a community. I want to make a mosque, Elena, I want to hear a prayer. You know, I want to hear prayer from like in my house like oh, prayer time, you know, I want to bring it I want to make a community that everyone has Peace in life and have a successful you know, Link two together and that's what I like about it and I want to connect you to also my Somali brothers and sisters. And you know all my brothers and sisters going to help me Everybody else who are Lady always who's stuck in everything else, you know? I want to bring back everything you know, I want to bring back the community. That's what I like about and I am ready i'm, i'm i'm 100% there yet, but I'll be ready whatever I feel I am I am ready so that's what I like about it and man I need find the door. I need I need to find the door. I'm-I'm slowly building my community, I want to get better. I want to extend myself first. You know, get to know me. I want to understand I want to get better. I want to learn the community. I want help my brothers sisters, I want to learn my education. I want to get better and smarter. And I want to take a time I want to take us low. You know...my experience back then, you know Cairo being like, being beaten up and like understand and like the pain and the struggle. I've been through I want to make that to like, in like a better thing, you know, because they taught me so many things that I could not see. But I want to help my brother sisters by exactly what I've been through but not as beating up them. I want to just open eyes by words by you know, energy by spirits, you know, tell them this is what the way you're looking for, you know, and if they lost or they need help, I'm the guy that Their looking for it and know if they need help anybody. I'm here, I got you and I understand what you're going through. And I'm I'm here to help you know, hold your hands go from go wherever you're going. So I'm-I'm excited and whatever it leads me to it. I'm happy I'm here. MM: So to wrap things up Abubakar Hassan, thank you very much for you know, joining me for this interview. I'm very thankful for you into you know, talking to me AH: No problem of course, thank you for inviting me and telling me t-MM: Thank you very much. You're very welcome. And uhm uh would you also consent this interview to be posted on Augsburg archives? It will be public. AH: Yes, yes, of course. MM: Mm hmm. All right. Thank you very much AH: No problem. Thank you.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History with Salma Ahmed, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Unknown Speaker 0:03 Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're from. Salma Ahmed 0:16 My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from...
Show more Unknown Speaker 0:03 Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're from. Salma Ahmed 0:16 My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota, but originally my family's from a city in Somalia called Kismayo. They immigrated here about 25 years ago to America, but specifically Nashville, Tennessee, and after living in Nashville for about two months and hearing that there was a growing Somali community in Minneapoli, they moved here on their own like, besides the asylum, they were given to Nashville. And once they reached Minneapolis, they lived on Franklin Avenue for about two years. Sahra Tobe 0:58 So you spoke a little bit about your family coming to the States. How long ago did they come? Salma Ahmed 1:04 Yeah, well, they came about 25 years ago, it'll be 25 years on August 31, 2020. I know the date specifically. But, um, ya know, so they came here because of a civil war that was growing in Somalia, it wasn't not a growing, but like a civil war that still continues to happen till this day. And so by that by the time it started, three of my older siblings were already born. And they had my, my other brother was on his way. So a couple years after, so still couple of years before they came to America, but they didn't want to raise their children in those conditions. And like, obviously, they were looking for them to have the opportunities that they were given growing up, and if not more. So once they came here, they settled down on Franklin Avenue, like I said, and they lived in a townhouse for a while, then after that they lived in another house. And up until like our current house, so they were like lucky enough to have a house built for them by Habitat for Humanity in like city center, Minneapolis. Sahra Tobe 2:18 And you guys are currently at that house still? Salma Ahmed 2:20 Yeah, we're still at the house. So like, it'll be 20 years in this house this may. Sahra Tobe 2:25 So quickly, I kind of want to ask you a little bit about the neighborhood that you grew up in. What was the neighborhood like and what do you remember about it from your childhood? Salma Ahmed 2:36 So it was always a predominantly white neighborhood still to this day it's predominantly white. It's just it's just growing out to have like more immigrants, more people of color in general. But I didn't go to school in the area myself like I went to school in Minneapolis, I grew up in Minneapolis Public Schools, but like my older siblings, I live right next to a high school called Roosevelt High School, but don't come to my house. I'm just kidding. But um, yeah, so my older siblings went there but like, just like with like, a lot of other like city center high schools, like becomes really dangerous, like fights break out and like parents, parents don't know why that happens. So they just take their kids away from the school. So I went to a high school still in my area, but like a little bit further away called South High School. But yeah, like growing up in, growing up in the same district, I always like went to school with like, predominantly people of color just because of like geographically where they were located. And it just made more sense for those demographics to come to those schools. Sahra Tobe 3:42 So can you speak a little bit about you said your family decided to come to Minnesota because of the growing Somali community here. How did that contribute to your childhood was it Do you remember like maybe being on a lot of Somali people you when you were younger? Did that does not occur to you as much as it mattered to your parents? What do you remember of that? Salma Ahmed 4:05 Um, okay, well, what I remember was like of course my parents always cared about like being around like, people that were similar to them just because like who doesn't want to be around someone who really can understand their experience where they don't have to explain why things are the way they are too. But like my parents cared mostly about like being around like other Muslims because like when it comes down to like it no matter how much someone is similar to you like if they don't have the same faith as you then like, you're not the same. But so like, for me like as a kid, it didn't really matter to me I didn't like make many Muslim friends in school however, like I always went to Dugsi, which is like for, some people don't know what Dugsi is. It's like Sunday school, but on like the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And essentially, you learned the Quran like, mainly memorization like I know is like, I don't know if it's like every Muslim community but in the Somali community it's very, very, very focused on memorization. And yeah, so memorization and then also like some Islamic studies but it's like mainly memorization like learning like having homework, and then passing it to your teacher we call it like basically teacher testing on your memorization like how you pronounce things. There's this thing like in the ruling of the Quran like reading it's this thing called Tajweed. So you kind of get tested on, Tajweed is like grammar and so you kind of get tested on like how well you know your grammar how well you memorize and things like that. Sahra Tobe 5:35 Yeah, so in terms of going to Dugsi and things like that, did you, how did you feel growing up balancing school five days a week and then also Dugsi on the weekends? Salma Ahmed 5:46 So I, I didn't know, I didn't balance it. So I didn't realize how much I actually had on my plate until like, I was like in early High School, maybe Late Middle School because it was just such a routine from such a young age like you be essentially essentially start going to Dugsi like when you start going to school like around five, six years old. You start like learning your alphabet you start learning like small words like an English terms this is but so I really didn't know how to balance it because it was like all I ever knew. So I never knew like a free weekend or like I never knew like a sleeping in morning because every day like I was on the go. And it wasn't like, I favored one or the other. Because like me, I love Dugsi, like growing up. I know, like a lot of kids that I grew up with even my siblings. They didn't like love Dugsi, because like, Oh, it's like very firm. It's not as easy as school where like American school you have like a lot of leeway and like you have like recess and lunch time and I mean, lunch is not a privilege, but you know, it becomes one when you have recess with it. But, um, so yeah, like I loved it because I was really good at memorization. And I was always, like, appreciated by my teachers for like, being good at it. And while like, I was good at school, like I it was just like you were among the other kids, like everyone was good at school, like it's hard not to be good at third grade multiplication because like the teacher, if you're not good, then the teacher will make sure you catch up to be good, you know? And so Dugsi like wasn't like that because there was like always, it wasn't age based It was like more like level based. So once my mom realized like I was like actually doing well in Dugsi, she put me in an accelerated program called Tahfeed. Where like you're in Dugsi for like your whole day. This is like also why I didn't know that I was like, handling it. Because I was so used to something like my I was in Tahfeed like, from the age of nine to I would say maybe like eight to 11 because um, like, it, Okay, so first it was accelerated, but also like, it really like tested your knowledge which I like I really like to be challenged when I know I'm good at something which is kind of egotistical to say but I'll say it but um so yeah so you're like challenged and also like you learn more than just memorization of the Quran but like Islamic Studies and like you're also with people who like also enjoy Dugsi because there's like Dugsi you can survive like not liking it because like your parents send you there you can like pass your Ashar, Ashar is what we call the homework but you can pass your Ashar and then like go home and like move on like get to your next day. Like in Tahfeed, you can't not want to be there. So that's why I liked it because my peers were like just as interesting in learning the Quran and the Deen. Deen is like our faith. Deen is like what we call it Islam. But um, so um, yeah, like so that's why I really liked it because like, it was so it was so fulfilling. To like, know that, like I love my faith and like I've loved it from like a really young age I've loved learning the Quran and I've loved like learning about the Deen because I just find it to be so just and so right like, and I'm so happy like I was born into Islam. So when like I had classmates and peers who enjoyed it just as much as me. And I can't share that like relationship with kids at school because like I said, Before, I wasn't friends with Muslim kids at school, or I can't share with like my siblings, since they didn't like Dugsi, like me and my older sister were in the program together. But we also have like a four year age gap, which is what I liked about the program like you were tested on your knowledge not your age. And school kind of limits you in that aspect, where it's like, you can't just be smart, it's you're in this grade. So like, this is the level you're at, and it was never like, hey, like you're so smart. Like let's challenge you in this aspect. Elementary School, nobody's trying to challenge you. Like Middle School, no one's trying to challenge you. You really only have like room to challenge yourself once you become an adult. So and like, you can't beg for a challenge because once it gets too hard, then it becomes 'oh, but you wanted this'. So that's what I really appreciated about Dugsi growing up, it was like different in that aspect from school. Sahra Tobe 10:09 You spoke a little bit about being really good at Dugsi to the point where your mother had you moved up into like an accelerated course. Salma Ahmed Yeah. 10:16 Sahra Tobe 10:17 So that shows that, like, a certain level of like, involvement from your parents on your parents end. Would you say they were as involved in like your schoolwork and things like that? Salma Ahmed 10:29 Yeah. So growing up, like, each of my parents kind of had like a focus. Like my mom, she's, um, she was always invested in like my Dugsi learning, making sure I learned the Quran like even till this day. Like now I finished the Quran and I don't go to Dugsi anymore. But my mom she's always like telling me like I should read because, like, I don't want to like get punished for like learning something and not utilizing it, like utilizing the resource that God gave me. And so, like, I appreciate my mom in that aspect because she's like, involved in every aspect of my life, like she cares about a lot about my schooling, but she herself wasn't given that much of an education growing up, so she couldn't help me as much. But like she always like was trying to like give me resources like send me to the library to learn. Like, I'm always like, asking, like, for tutors for me, like she was always like vouching for me and like, kind of like, being my lawyer, like in my educational life, whether it was Dugsi or school, but my dad, he himself, like, cared a lot about Dugsi, he's like involved, he was always like, taking us and picking us up and whatever. But he cares, like for sure a lot about school. Like, my education, like my dad's always asking me what my major is, like, what my GPA is, what I'm planning on doing with it, just like making sure like I'm driven in school, but um, and like not to say my dad isn't as religious as my mom or like, he doesn't care about the Deen as much as my mom is just that like he himself works at a school in Minneapolis Public Schools, so like He cares. For sure, like education is what he's geared towards, but like he also wants me like be a good Muslim like practice and pray and things like that. But like my mom for sure is active in like Dugsi more than school, because that's like what she knows most. Sahra Tobe 12:18 So do you think that your parents involvement differ between like you and your, like your older siblings and do you think it connects to like how long they've been in the States? Salma Ahmed 12:28 Yes. 100%. Like, I really appreciate like my stance in my family because I know it's so different from my older siblings. Like, out of the eight kids my mom had, I'm the sixth so I have two younger sisters and then five older siblings, and out of all of us, just me and my older sister finished the Quran and that's because of like my mom's opportunity to be so involved in our, like, Islamic education. So, like 100% I think it differs because of like, they couldn't worry about putting food on the table, while also worrying about if you pass your Ashar that week, which is not to say that like, it was by choice or anything like that, but it was just like is very difficult like trying to vouch for your livelihood with also your, like children's education, you know, like things that are more like, less of like a commodity, you know, like, you know, education is really important, but that's definitely, you know, a privilege which, you know, like, not everyone has. So it's, it's very, very difficult. Like, I know, my parents are much more involved even in the way that I saw them raise my older siblings, like from young kids, like I've been aware of how they were raised. And like, I know, I'm raised in a more... I have more leeway, let's say like then they ever had, like my parents were very firm with them because like they're more scared of the world of what they didn't know. And so I think that contributes a lot to like the education I've been given. Both with Dugsi and with school. Yeah, for sure. Sahra Tobe 14:06 And then earlier you spoke a little bit about how you didn't feel like you were like you were busy with both Dugsi and school until you got a little bit older once you did begin to get a little more busy, what kind of what were your responsibilities kind of looking like, I know you said you have two younger sisters and just going to school and Dugsi and how that differed from maybe some of your classmates that didn't have to go to school on weekends. As you said earlier, you didn't have a lot of Muslim friends in school. So as you got older, you had a lot of a lot more responsibilities and things to deal with how how kind of was your experience with that? Salma Ahmed 14:49 So yeah, my Like I said before, yeah, I do have two younger sisters. And thankfully like I haven't had to be like, extremely responsible for them. Because our age gap is so small, they're only two years younger than me. They're twins. So, like, I've had to be like somewhat responsible for them just like being mature and like being the next one in the house that like sometimes I would have to like babysit them like, just things like that, but it was never like, I was never like, held accountable for them. Like my, some of my older siblings were held accountable for me and them. So I definitely think that that contributed a lot to why I always felt like nothing was like so overwhelming because my home responsibilities were like, really like minimal in comparison to my siblings. So when I looked at my classmates, who weren't Muslims responsibilities, I just thought they were extra chillin. Like I was chillin because I didn't have, you know, like these responsibilities that non immigrant kids don't have any way. So like, I would just think about it in a way like I'm not even overwhelmed because I don't have younger siblings to look after. I don't have bills to pay. You know, like things like that, but I still had to, like, clean and like make sure everything was okay. But even those responsibilities were minimal because I had the comparison of so much and so little. So like, what I had to go to Dugsi and school, like for my own education for my own well being was like, if anything, I was thankful like that I only had to worry about my homework for Dugsi and my homework for school. Like it was it like it definitely gave me like, some perspective and it made me like more appreciative as a person because because, like, I know, like, things could be completely different because I've saw them be completely different. Sahra Tobe 16:37 And then, so as you move up in your education, like high school and things like that, did you see your social circles kind of changing in any way? Salma Ahmed 16:47 Yeah, for sure. Um, so like, I have like Muslim friends just from Dugsi itself. But um, I, in high school, I actually had to move away from like my non Muslim friends. Because like, they just like, it didn't go from like oh 'hanging out' it was like they're kind of drinking and like, doing activities that I as a Muslim like it was contradicting with like who I was to the core, which was a Muslim. So they kind of like made the decision for me really like to make Muslim friends so like, that's when I made Muslim friends and thankfully, I went to like a well versed high school, high school, so it wasn't like difficult to like make Muslim friends and it wasn't the fact that I didn't know other Muslims or like, I wasn't cool with them. It was just the fact that we just never ended up being friends. And so Um, so yeah, like, I just kind of like started making the connections I already had and like furthering them so yeah, like that's, that's the time when I kind of like realize like my, if you you are who your friends are. And if your friends like aren't-- I'm a firm believer of that, of you are your friends are because if someone's character like completely contradicts your own, then how can you like stand by and like, let them be that way? Or like, you know, like, kind of per- make that permissible, you know what I mean? And so, um, so yeah, like, that's when, like, I realized, like, it's really good for me to have Muslim friends because, like, that kind of limits the temptation of sin in my like, specific case, like, I didn't want to ever be tempted to do something. And like, while Muslims are also sinners, you know, like, at least like, I wouldn't have felt peer pressured by the people I was friends with, like, they were doing something and I would say, Oh, I don't want to and like they wouldn't say why not because they know I'm a Muslim. You know what I mean? Like, every time I felt like, every time my non Muslim friends were doing something, I'd say I don't want to they'd say, Well, why not? And I have to explain my whole faith again, and I'm like, everyday explaining my faith like a scholar. I didn't have the time. Sahra Tobe 18:53 Did you, um, So you talked about how that was kind of the driving force for you to to kind of cultivate a group of Muslim friends. Did you have any experiences with maybe your Muslim friends looking to engage in, in the quote unquote, regular teenage activities? Salma Ahmed 19:08 Yeah, for sure I um, Yeah. Like, you know, like, that's when I really realized friends come and go. Because like, it kind of gets to a point where it's like, yeah, okay, like you respect that I don't want to do it. But like, then it's like, we don't even hang out anymore because you're doing something I don't want to do. You don't want to do what I'm doing. Because it's not that these regular activities or whatever, so kind of just becomes like an ongoing loop of so like, you don't see each other anymore. And then just naturally, people grow apart based on things like that. So I'm like, thankfully, I'm like, I've always been like, kind of, well, like grounded in my own headspace. Like, I've always had a good head on my shoulders because of my older siblings. Like when you see other people in your life that you care about, like making mistakes, or like go through things that you'll probably go through just because it's like the Circle of Life here, whatever anywhere. You kind of like expect that. So then like when it comes and happens to you kind of like know how to handle and you kind of you know how to get through it. So that's what like, why never felt belittled by people telling me 'Oh, you're not like willing to do this, you're not willing to do that' like, because I'm really not. And I know you're gonna ask me if you almost feel like a psychic. So, um, so yeah, like that's kind of what guided me like really was having older siblings that went through the same life as me here, like I know it was probably way more difficult for them because they they were literally taken from the only life they knew like, I mean, they were all super young when they left but it was all they were familiar with. And coming to like, here, which gives you a complete culture shock and like with parents that have never experienced anything like in the slightest of that way, like they're just kind of focused on surviving. Like, it's really really hard to guide so thankfully I was in that position. I just kind of watched it from hindsight. Sahra Tobe 21:06 Do you, are you still in close contact with your siblings and how's your family life like now? Salma Ahmed 21:12 Um, yeah, so all my siblings are old people. So um, my oldest brother is 35. And yeah, he's married he lives in Minnesota. All my siblings except for one live in Minnesota. So my oldest brother Yeah, he lives in Minnesota. He, I'm, were, in like pretty close contact, like not on a day to day thing. But like, we have pretty good relationship. I ask him for like life advice. He, he loves school. He's like my dad. He's always talking about, like, what I want to do, how he's like making connections. So I have like, a little bit of an easier experience, which like, he's always been, like, helpful, like with things like that. He's always like, kind of like couple steps ahead. And so he's always willing to help me with anything I need. And he's like, always trying to like move mountains for me. So it's super nice. And then I have another brother, aw this makes me sad, and then I have another brother who's also married. He's not as helpful- I'm just kidding. But yeah, I definitely see like the difference in maturity between my siblings just watching them. But yeah, my other brother, he's also married, he lives in Minnesota. He works. We have a pretty good relationship. Like it's not like anything like where like, we talk on a day to day basis either. But, um, he has like, for sure, like flaws that, you know, like I kind of have a hard time getting over sometimes just like in general, like, you know, people aren't, you, you don't get to sculpt people in your life, how they are like your family's your family. You don't get to choose them for a reason. But um and then I have another sister, she's the one who doesn't live here. She lives in New York. We have an amazing relationship. She's actually like, one of the closest people I have in my family. She's like, a great person and she like, honestly, she's like my second mom, like she for sure guided me more than anybody else like, my brothers like yeah, like they, like I kind of looked at their experiences but they didn't guide me in any way like, you know like they're kind of boys will be boys and boys take a longer time to grow up but um yeah like she's like for sure yeah she's like for sure like contribute a lot to the kind of person I am today. And like yeah we talked very frequently especially considering the fact that the only contact we have is like a phone but she like visits a lot and like I visited like the place she lives so it's cool. And then I have another brother who's like he's like still growing up. Like Like I said before boys take way longer to grow up and girls and what I've seen, especially in immigrant families, and so like, I haven't like taken anything from him to be completely honest. Like he's in my like, headspace. He's kind of like, the same age as me. If not younger than me, even though we have like a seven year age gap. And then I have a sister like, I'm the closest with her out of all my siblings. She's four years older than me. She's the one I mentioned before like that we went to Tahfeed together. But um, she, yeah, like, we're like very close. Sometimes, like, my other sister makes like jokes like I'm the older sister in the relationship just because like, in any aspect of my life, I'm like a realist more than anything, like more than an optimist more than, like, someone who like uses their imagination alot, whatever. I like, I see things for what they are and like I don't try to like let emotions cloud my judgment. And so she's she's like more of an optimist. So that's why it's funny that like, she's asking me for advice and stuff even though she's like, ahead of me in life. And then I have those two twin sisters I was talking about earlier and like, when people say the youngest and families like are definitely the same and no matter how old they are, like, I definitely see that especially my own family. Because like, you know, they're like tested the least, they have like no one else to look after which, thankfully I didn't have anybody to look after but they were so young to not see my other siblings grow up that they're kind of like, still like looking for guidance, which like we all try to give them as much as we can. But yeah, like all my siblings, like we're in pretty good contact but there's for sure more I talk to most. Like especially like the three I live with. I talked to them more frequently because I see them the most frequently. And my sister in New York, I see her or I talked to her the most because if not, then we don't have any contact and you know, boys will be boys. Sahra Tobe 25:36 So, you spoke a lot about your relationship with your siblings. How is your relationship with your, with your parents? And do you feel like there's a tight relationship there as well? Salma Ahmed 25:47 Yeah, I I for my mom and I, we definitely have a tight knit relationship. I'd say especially like considering now that I'm older, I can definitely admire everything she's done for me and I can appreciate it. Which like, I always have known, like, the place my mom has my life like she's always been held to high esteem in my head. But the only thing now is the fact that like, she can, like talk to me about like, the problems she's having and things like that where I'm like more of an adult. Like, she doesn't put weight on me or anything but like, it's, you know, like, she makes it more clear she doesn't like shelter me from things like she used to, which I appreciate because like, I hate feeling like, babied, especially in situations where like, I can fully comprehend like I'm a full functioning adult, you know, but um, like parents don't see that all the time. I mean, like, even like in immigrant families sometimes they'll treat you like an adult sometimes they treat you like a child, which it doesn't really make sense because pick one. Like sometimes my mom will tell me I'm 25, sometimes she'll tell me I'm 12 but um, even though I'm only 19. But, but um so ya no, my mom and me, we definitely have a tight knit relationship like considering everything, she's like, always like been, like I said before, like vouching for me and like always been like a great resource to me like in any way she possibly can, she always tries to like move mountains for me. My dad and me we have like a pretty good relationship too, like now that I'm like growing up more like I definitely see like the flaws he has but like he's like still a great person like the older people are the more they don't change. So like I try not to hold him to to like much of an expectation either like I don't want like to be the reason that he's unhappy because I expect him to change but he's been like this for the fifty-four years he's had kids. So like yeah, we're also pretty close, like he knows about like, the things that are happening in my life because I try to like keep him involved. Because I never want him to feel like I'm like looking at him as just like another parent like second to my mom when like it ends up being that way anyway because my mom so involved like, voluntarily and like sometimes I have to put him in the loop. But um, yeah, like, my dad for sure like tries to be involved in our lives and like he tries to like, help with what he can like financially and things like that. So I appreciate that a lot. Sahra Tobe 28:14 Do you remember your family having any, like special traditions or kind of a little get together things that they did? Like maybe on holidays or things like that growing up? Salma Ahmed 28:24 Yeah. So my family we're like, very, like religious family, like my mom like, we never like really celebrated birthdays or anything like that, like because not like, through my parents and my older siblings would celebrate birthdays with us, because like, they saw other people celebrated birthdays, so they would try to like, make our transitions like smooth, you know, like, between, like, the different worlds we come from or whatever. But um, ya no, every year since I was like a kid. My dad's sister lives in Minnesota as well. So she would invite us all over for Thanksgiving. But it wasn't like we were celebrating Thanksgiving, we all just happen to have the day off. And she would make like Somali food, not like Turkey. So like, that's the tradition we've always had just because all her kids were off of work and school. And so were we. And my dad was off of work, too, because he works at a school. So he's on the same schedule as us. So it was always really nice. So I would always look forward to that, because like, if I didn't get to see them often, like because people's lives got busy, then I would know that we'd see each other on Thanksgiving Sahra Tobe 29:29 Do you remember what your parents did for living when you're growing up? And like, do you remember maybe like, Salma Ahmed 29:34 what they did for what? Sahra Tobe 29:36 For a living like, Salma Ahmed 29:36 oh, for a living? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my mom, she always stayed at home because she like, for like 18 years. She was raising kids. So she, oh, yeah, she stayed home like she didn't like I said she didn't really get much of an education like she didn't get an education at all in America besides like, some ELL classes she took for a couple of years when I was younger and then she was like, always worried about like us not speaking our native tongue. So we would always speak Somali in the house. And that was like the main reason she stayed at home because she didn't want us to lose our language. Because she was afraid that if she, if she worked, or if she like, went to school and stuff, thankfully, like my dad, like, worked a stable enough job where we didn't have to, like depend on the two incomes. But um, yeah, she was, she was always worried about she was always worried about us and losing our native tongue. And if we talked only amongst each other, we would talk in English, because that's what we spoke at school. And so like, it's funny because even though I grew up in America, like was born and raised here. When I went to school I only spoke Somali because I wasn't allowed to speak English at home. And that was like up to until like, the age of like, 15 we weren't allowed to speak English. And so, my dad though he always worked at an elementary school of like, as far as like, I can remember, he worked another job before I was born, but I can't remember what it was. But I remember he, he's always been like the liaison for like, Somali students, but he also like he's really really good at math. And that's always been like his main strength so he also helps kids struggling with math. So he's like kinda like a math teacher for elementary kids. So it's like nice that's why I was like always accelerated. And I'd be like math 90, reading 40. I didn't know English but I knew math. But um, yeah, so yeah, those were the main things that they did for a living. It's kind of funny now to say my mom's a stay at home mom cause, like, she stays at home for herself now. Sahra Tobe 31:42 So going off of you speaking about like wanting to keep your language and how that was a big part of your upbringing. I know like your, your mother, that was a point of like, a point of importance for her there. Did you ever feel like growing up like you were juggling your identity as a Somali Amerian, did you ever feel at times that maybe one was slipping? Salma Ahmed 32:01 Yeah, I for sure hated speaking Somali. Yeah, no, I like I was ashamed because it sounds like sounds so ugly. And when my mom like we would be in stores and me and my siblings talking English my mom would say 'no like you see people speaking Spanish, you see, you see like all these people speak in their native tongues and you guys are having them understand your conversations like, do you see how stupid you look?' And she was not lying because like people were really all up in our business when we spoke another language so now like I'm for sure thankful because I know like, I'm very fluent in Somali now where like, a lot of my peers aren't, even my younger sisters. Like they still kind of struggle with Somali and they kind of like pronounce words wrong, just like grammar errors but um, yeah, like I'm very, very thankful now because, like it's a strength to be bilingual and not a weakness, but I always found it to be a weakness. But um, that's like, part of the reason I struggled was because like Like I said before, like kids growing up would tell you, like, oh, you're not even from here obviously. And I'd be like, why do we speak another language, if we're American? Like it did not click for me, I'm like, What? Is this just me? But um like, also like part of my tradition like, I, like, traditions, I should say, like, I would hide from my kids at school and stuff just because I didn't want to be different, so bad, because like, they made it be something so negative, but like Now, obviously, like with life experience, wisdom, and all that jazz, you realize that like being the carbon carbon copy doesn't like get you anywhere, like, even when you're applying for jobs, they want something different. So and they want someone who speaks another language, someone who can like reach multiple communities. Whereas like, if you only speak English, and you all look the same, then what's the, what makes you yourself what makes you an individual? Sahra Tobe 33:49 So that, so you spoke a little bit about your, your, your identities as a Somali and then as an American, how did your identity as Somali and Muslim translate in your life? How did they maybe coincide or contradict? Salma Ahmed 34:04 Yeah, I feel like for sure they always like aligned for me. Just because like, I've never met a Somali that wasn't Muslim. I've always been like, able to at least like if I didn't have like this I would at least have like Somali people, you know what I mean? So I, I always like grew up with even like at Dugsi, like I didn't go to Dugsi or our local Masjid, they're all Somali, like, things like that. I always feel like those two identities kind of went hand in hand for me like, sometimes when like, my, like, culture would contradict my like, oh, like, Somali dance, Somali music like that would contradict my religion. I'd be like, kind of confused, like, when we were younger, my mom would play like Somali music. And I would like learn in Dugsi that music was haram. And I'd be like, so Somali music isn't haram. Because like, I'm like, there's no way my moms playing music and this was like, I'm thinking like parents have no flaws at this age. So I'm like, I know my mom would have played music if it was not haram. Yeah. So I said, hmm, I put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and I realized moms can be sinners too. But now it's funny because I brought that up to my mom the other day and she's like 'I was learning too', it's funny. Sahra Tobe 35:22 So, it sounds like your parents definitely played a large part in your upbringing. Did you know your grandparents, or great grandparents? Salma Ahmed 35:30 No, actually, I've never met any of my grandparents. My dad's parents, so his mom died when he was four years old, and then his dad died when he was 18. And then so my mom didn't even meet my dad's parents, but my mom's mom died in 2013, like September 2013. And then my mom's dad died in 2016 actually, when both my parents were gone in England for my brother's wedding, so like, we never really got to grieve my grandpa's death, because like, my mom was gone. So yes, like, I never got to meet them. So like now like when I like see people like having like, relationships with like their grandparents or like, it's like, either like when they have relationships with their grandparents I'm like, so happy for them because I'm like, wow, like, that's such an amazing thing to be able to experience like, I know, like some people like they consider their grandparents like more of like a contribution to their life like than their parents. So it's like super interesting to see. But like also like, the same thing I'm like, when people don't appreciate their grandparents, I get upset because I'm like, please appreciate them. Like they're only here for a certain amount of time, just like the rest of us, but they're also here for such a short amount of time, so it's like, yeah, I have like I have those emotions about that. Sahra Tobe 36:48 So did you, I know we spoke a little earlier about your father's sister that would invite you guys over during like Thanksgiving time. Do ou guys have any like other cousins or other extended families, you guys, like regularly got together with and how did that, how did that kind of play out in your life like growing up? Salma Ahmed 37:11 Yeah, so um, my father's sister she has a lot of kids, most of our kids are like, a lot older than me. Her youngest son is actually like 31 he's as old as my sister that lives in New York and then her oldest son is like 45 I want to say like they have their age gaps aren't like insane, but like in comparison to us, like they're a lot older than us. So um, so yeah, they it was actually my nieces and nephews, my cousin's kids like in my culture, consider my nieces and nephews because like your cousins are like your siblings in comparison instead of like, great cousin, whatever second cousin and all that but um, so yeah, we would all get together because all of her kids except for her oldest live inMinnesota. So it was more like I was getting together with like my aunts and their kids instead of like my cousins and their kids because, you know, like, my cousins are so much older than me, I saw them as like parent figures. And so it'd be super nice to see all of them because all their kids are like, around my age and around the twins age. So they would come over too because they're all off of school. But most of my like my dad's family, live like around the world. Like, he has some family in Toronto, like my dad has like mostly brothers, except for his one, he only has one sister and then the rest are brothers. So he has brothers in Toronto, and then Saudi Arabia and like Abu Dhabi and United Arab Emirates, and then also a brother in Birmingham. So like, we don't get to see them frequently but like they visited us and like I'm like connected with all my like cousins on like social media and like sometimes we talk but it's just like, like knowing like they exist is like super nice like having cousins around your age, especially girl cousins, super nice and so. But my mom's side of the family she um, she comes from, she doesn't come from a big family. My grandpa actually like he was married twice. So his second wife has like younger kids than my mom. So there's like a lot of them like, they all live in Somalia. And one of my mom's older sister's daughter actually lives in Sweden. So my mom is like, trying to go to Sweden now. It's funny. Sahra Tobe 39:34 So, circling back to your experience in school, I know you stated earlier that you preferred math over reading etc. What else can you recall about like how, how school was for you? Especially like having the guidance of your older siblings and kind having already that community from Dugsi maybe that translated over and what also are you up to now? Salma Ahmed 40:00 Yeah, so school is like, I always enjoyed it. So but my favorite was middle school because like, I was always like super like soft spoken like super like insecure about my identity. But like middle schools when I really realized like I was happy like with who I was like, where I came from things like that, which thankfully it happens sooner rather than later. I know for a lot of people are not as thankful, I mean, they're not as comfortable. Yeah, like around that age. Like that's what I feel like insecurities kind of grow. You know what I mean? So I was like, Luck that mine were kind of chilling out at that age. But so yeah, so I school was always I don't want to say a breeze. But it was always like something. It was like nonchalant, I was nonchalant about it. Like, I did it. I wasn't like completely invested. Like also I was good at it. So I didn't hate it. You know, like, like I said before, I'm kind of egotistical, I only like what I'm good at, but um yeah like that's when, that's like, why I liked it. Like, in high school, I was in the National Honor Society. So and like, none of my family members were in that, so I was really like happy, like, I love like when my family like see something like and they're happy for me because it's like something that they're unfamiliar with. Like I know like a lot of times like when I'm good at something my other siblings good at it like my parents like they're like oh, okay, like that's a regular thing like it's the norm for us, you know? So I liked high school a lot because I was kind of like, more well sculpted in like who I was. And like, I was good at school, I was taking PSEO classes. And I just felt like so like in control of my life. Like for the first time I was like the driver. And I knew like where I was going, I wasn't using GPS. And yeah, like now I'm in college and I'm kind of using GPS again. So, like, right now I study computer science. And like, I don't know, like, that decision was kind of like erratic, I don't know, like, I don't completely enjoy it, I first started because of like, the problem solving aspects and like, you know, like, it's really like exhilarating when you're good at or like when you solve a problem that you see on your own, like, you don't need help. Like, it's, it's just like, it's a really good feeling. But I'm now like I'm realizing like, there's not much like, there's not much to it, like you code and then you move on, like, I and I don't like what my whole life to be just like, coding, you know. And like, I feel like in any aspect of any career, like or any career that I intend to go into. You don't like, you don't want to like just code. You know what I mean? It's just, it's not like, it doesn't sit right with me thinking like I'm working towards. I'm just coding working towards a job where i'll just code. Like that doesn't sound fulfilling to me at all, which I'm not necessarily like going to school to like become fulfilled by a job, but it would be nice to not hate myself. So, yes, and right now I'm like looking into other majors, possibly Management Information Systems because it kind of like uses, like the coding that I already know with also, like, management aspects and like analyzation and like critical thinking where like, I'll actually be able to use the frontal lobe. I would not use it if I was just coding. Sahra Tobe 43:25 So um, going a little bit, going a little bit more into your experience in college so far. You are a sophomore, correct? Salma Ahmed Yes. 43:31 Sahra Tobe 43:32 So do you have you maybe felt like some of the peer pressure from maybe High School has been maybe like presenting itself in college as well maybe just like in other forums? Or like, how do you feel your social life is now? Salma Ahmed 43:49 I feel like my social life now is like, fairly well, like, I haven't had like, issues with like friendships and things like since I was in high school, so like, I'm thankful one I have like, been able to, like, make good friends in school, but like, also have like good friends outside of school. So it's like a nice balance of the two and like, yeah like, socially like, I feel fine. However, there's like always like the, the 'teenage activities', like people aren't teenagers anymore, but um the activities of like of students or whatever that like linger. And so actually, I find that in college, they applaud you for not partaking in their activities, and like they almost like give you like that, 'Oh, you're so innocent, don't do this kind of act', which is almost worse than the peer pressure I experienced in high school because like, they think you don't do stuff because you're naive instead of like, wise, you know, I mean, so like it really like it's just kind of like an ongoing loop of what? But, but um, yes, like, I like I definitely come across people like doing things that I personally don't do or won't do or will never do. So. So it's like, it's definitely interesting to see like, the different reactions you get, though, because like, people have been like offering out the same things for the past five, six years. It's just now that they offer it in different tones and different reactions when you say no or so it's funny. It's funny. Yeah. Sahra Tobe 45:18 Do you do feel like yourself becoming stronger and more grounded in your identities the more that you experience kind of these invitations or is it the other way? Salma Ahmed 45:29 Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of do kind of like, I'm still the same because I find that like people when like they, when they applaud you for not doing something they're just insecure. Like, they themselves don't know why they're doing what they're doing, or it's like they themselves fed into peer pressure. So they're kind of just like, taken aback when you like, think for yourself because they didn't do that. So it's definitely interesting to see that like, I'm this way because I wanna be this way, but you're that way because your friend said so or like, it doesn't really make sense to me because I know like some people like it takes longer for them to digest things than others or like some people weren't offered these things like they went to Islamic school or whatever, you know, like, whatever walk of life you're from. However, like, if you're gonna think for yourself, you'll start thinking for yourself now because like, this is like, your formative adult years. So I don't really like I don't really know. And I don't really feel like as bad as I do for people now when they like kind of get themselves in situations as they did in high school. Because now you've like, now you've like seen things, you know what I mean? Like now you like this is what you chosen. So like, yeah, like I feel more strong willed than I did before because of that type of stuff. Yeah. Sahra Tobe 46:50 So now moving forward, where, where do you see yourself? In the next- I know this question sucks, I hate myself for asking you but I'm going ask you anyway Salma Ahmed Okay 47:01 Sahra Tobe 47:01 and this is in terms of like your school, in terms of maybe who you are as a person, in terms of maybe your relationships with people, different people in your life things like that. But where do you see yourself ideally? Maybe in the next two, three years, three years? Salma Ahmed 47:18 Oh, okay so only two I thought you were gonna say five or 10 I don't know. Um, yeah, next two, three years. Yeah, hopefully like see myself graduated with a degree hopefully I see myself out of school not doing homework. But yeah, like with a stable job hopefully like if it's two years from now then I won't have graduated yet. Like hopefully with at least a job offer. I hope like I'm really strong in my Iman, like more than I am now. I hope like I'm like more certain of myself like I feel like I'm like fairly confident now. Like there's always room for improvement in any aspect of a person. So yeah, like I definitely hope to be like more stable I hope to be driving my own car again like I was in high school. But um yeah, no I and I hope like I'm learning something that I care about. And like I'm I'm confident in what I'm learning. So yeah. Sahra Tobe 48:13 Do you have anything else you want to add, any closing remarks? Salma Ahmed 48:19 no no closing remarks but I will tell you like, my like situation of like, my like immigrant story, my Muslim immigrant story, Muslim in Minnesota story is like, I know like very different in comparison to other people like the generation now growing up like my younger sisters like years of schooling is like completely different than mine. Even if they are in like, similar shoes as me like with older siblings, and like couple of younger siblings, like I definitely say like this is it's a very specific situational story. So I think it's interesting what this is doing what you guys are doing. Sahra Tobe 48:59 Thank you so much for joining me Salma Ahmed 49:01 You're welcome. This was fun. Thanks for having me. It was an honor, pleasure. Sahra Tobe 49:08 Thanks so much for listening, bye-bye Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Ahmed Nur, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Faruk Ahmed 0:01 This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22 2019. I'm here with.. Ahmed Nur. 0:13 Ahmed Nur. Faruk Ahmed 0:15 and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little bit more about yo...
Show more Faruk Ahmed 0:01 This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22 2019. I'm here with.. Ahmed Nur. 0:13 Ahmed Nur. Faruk Ahmed 0:15 and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little bit more about yourself? Ahmed Nur. 0:23 Well, I'm Augsburg alum. Minneapolis native. lived here most of my life. I'm a Somali American. Born in Somalia. Grew up most of my life in Minnesota in and around Minneapolis. Faruk Ahmed 0:45 You're born in Somalia? yeah exactly yeah, the capital city of Mogadishu Mogadishu. Do you have any? Any memories? how old were you? Ahmed Nur. 0:59 well i was in '93 so I really dont remember I left when I was around three or four years old? So I was my earliest memories were of America. Faruk 1:09 Okay, so 1996 three year old Ahmed, straight to Minneapolis or? Unknown Speaker 1:15 no, by way of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I lived there for like six months, my family. My uncle and his wife sponsored us. Me and my mom, my grandpa and other family members. live there for six months, three years within we moved to Minneapolis as a family. Faruk Ahmed 1:33 Do you? You were four and a half, maybe five when you were in green bay? Ahmed Nur. 1:40 I was around like four years old. Faruk 1:42 Do you have any memories, were you living with your uncle? Ahmed Nur. 1:46 Yeah. Oh, we were all living with my uncle. Faruk 1:49 Were there any other kids around your age? Ahmed Nur. 1:50 Yeah, he had two children. Two girls one was a year older than me and one year younger than me. Faruk Ahmed 1:58 Okay. Ahmed Nur. 1:59 that was it for the children. I was the only other child. actually me and my cousin came along from my somalia and lived with them too. Faruk 2:08 So you and your cousin. Do you have siblings that were born here? Ahmed Nur. 2:11 Yeah All my siblings have four siblings. younger than me. I have 3 brothers and one sister. Faruk Ahmed 2:18 Oh, what are their ages? Ahmed Nur. 2:20 My brother Habib, he is 23. my brother Nurdin He's 19. my sister Amira is 18 and my youngest brother Omar is 13 Faruk 2:33 you guys are pretty close to in age for the most part. Ahmed Nur. 2:36 Yes, like, three ish years gap between everyone and they were all born in Minneapolis? Yep. Faruk Ahmed 2:46 Okay. So what was you came to Minneapolis at what five ish, four? Ahmed Nur. 2:51 Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 2:52 Okay. What was your early life like, here? Ahmed Nur. 2:56 early life.. just uh your typical Household nothing different. We lived in a community of a bunch of different groups, but predominantly Somali and Hispanic people was around the neighborhood. Faruk Ahmed 3:18 Okay. south minneapolis? Ahmed Nur. 3:19 Yeah, south minneapolis . uh Yeah. So I, what was the question? Faruk 3:27 Just your experience from when you first moved to me over the years since you're five? Ahmed Nur. 3:31 Yeah, Faruk Ahmed 3:32 yeah. Ahmed Nur. 3:32 I remember having like, like going to a head start. For example. I remember having I think I had maybe one teacher who was white, but the rest were all like either she African American, Hispanic or Asian. Faruk Ahmed 3:48 interesting. This is head start? Ahmed Nur. 3:50 Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 3:50 Okay. Where do you go to head start? Do you remember? Ahmed Nur. 3:54 the one that was on by Martin Luther King park? That one.. uhh Faruk Ahmed 4:01 On Nicollet. Ahmed Nur. 4:02 Kind of by nicollet. Yeah. Yeah. Like down down 42nd Faruk Ahmed 4:06 Like 42nd. yeah. Faruk 4:11 interesting. So from head start to kindergarten, what was, did you just live in the same place? Ahmed Nur. 4:22 around the neighborhood two times we lived on Pillsbury and some of the apartment complex. One of my brothers was born there. And then we move to the Albright townhomes that's kind of like half a block away and does more of a predominantly somali neighborhood because it's closer to a somali mall. at least it was on the rise. Then it wasn't as much as higher concentration as it is now. Faruk Ahmed 4:53 Do you, so what was what was school like for you? So we kind of talked about head start, you had a pretty diverse, Your teachers, the teachers were pretty diverse is not just the predominantly white profession. Did that change as you went throughout school? Ahmed Nur. 5:14 Kind of Yeah, so I went to from kindergarten I went to whittier actually. And I don't remember, like kindergarten, like first grade teachers. But I assume they're white. But remember for 100% my third grade teacher, she's, she's black. She's African American and she's one of my favorite teachers when I was younger, she's the name is Miss Jenkins or something. And she's just very nice person as this kind of stuck with me throughout the years. Faruk Ahmed 5:48 were the other teachers Not nice? Ahmed Nur. 5:49 no they were nice but she's different and it seemed like she cared a little bit more maybe she could like, relate to us like students of color, maybe a little more. Faruk Ahmed 5:58 were they a little nicer to you and to students of color or just nicer in general? Ahmed Nur. 6:03 in general, because the whole like most of our class was like what he was a very diverse school also is a lot of different groups of people from different people from African nations, African American people, different people from different parts of Asia. A lot of Hispanic people, like I said, from Central and South America so its a big, I wouldn't say melting pot, like a big just diverse. Faruk 6:37 Yeah, so schools are usually you know, they preach diversity, and some of them really are even though you guys are fairly young. What was the interaction like between students? Unknown Speaker 6:48 I remember fondly like my first like, my first best friend was Hispanic guy, and Jose. me and him were really good friends. I remember having Like really close friends of all like to think about it I don't think any like, actual like, white people like it was all like different groups of people are like my friends are these my closer friends than I hung out with or play at the playground with Faruk 7:19 you have you and Jose still in contact now? Ahmed Nur. 7:21 No. Faruk Ahmed 7:21 Yeah, that's cool time does that. So how about as you get older maybe towards a junior high/upper middle school? Ahmed Nur. 7:31 So yeah. So whittier I went there from kindergarten until like the first couple of days in fifth grade and then I transferred to Cla Barton open school in southwest Minneapolis. Yeah. And that was a little bit more of a culture change because is more, more affluent students and more. Not as diverse but there was Diversity they're definitely not the teaching side is mainly white teachers is what I noticed. Faruk 8:11 So how did your experience with your student body and making friends and what not, did that shift also with the new school? Ahmed Nur. 8:21 Oh, not really. I think my experiences are a lot like from a young age like meeting a bunch of different people allowed me to be able to connect with a lot of specific people and easily make friends so I wasn't hard to get to know people really, really quick. Faruk Ahmed 8:38 It sounds like you were open to the idea of befriending anyone; were the other students receptive that they you know, did they reflect that like, hey, they're also willing to accept? Ahmed Nur. 8:52 I say yes and no. I had like a kind of a weird experiences. I had sold my fifth grade teacher I remember an area name was Mary Austin. And she was like a tyrant. She's like this very, like, cool old white lady who definitely had a bias towards like African American kids and like she, she does a lot more harsh. And like she she would grade us harder and like held us, She tried to say she holds us to a higher standard, but it seems like there was a little bit like thinking back now it seems like there's a little bit of prejudice on her behalf and she would favor the white students and a lot of the people in the classroom were sensitive to this and kind of one more stand-offish to the other students that were favored by the teacher. Faruk Ahmed 9:52 Did you feel any of that? I know you've mentioned that in hindsight, you're able to look back and really see things for what they were but were you able to Ahmed Nur. 9:59 Yeah Faruk Ahmed 10:00 feel it? Ahmed Nur. 10:00 Definitely Yes. Faruk Ahmed 10:01 As a student? Ahmed Nur. 10:02 Yeah. And I feel like it caused me to not like that teacher shes probably like, one of the one like, one teachers I most disliked thinking back to even like at that moment to people really didn't like her I just then I didn't like her and even now thinking back I still am not a fan of her. Faruk Ahmed 10:27 this is at the new school is a clara barton? Ahmed Nur. 10:29 It is. Okay. In grade, fifth grade? fifth grade. Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 10:33 So towards the end of your school career Have you come, Did you come across any other teachers or like that experience anything of that sort. or was it was just smooth sailing from from then on? Ahmed Nur. 10:45 From there. Yeah, after fifth grade after Clara barton, I left there and I went to edina Actually, I went to Southview middle school. And from there it was, like, even more of a culture change because I went from like, kind of diverse classroom to like another diverse classroom. I went to like, maybe there was like five African American people including myself, maybe five, I'll say five to 10 in like the whole school at that when I first went there in sixth grade and and maybe like one other somali person, so it was really different because there were, there was people I can relate to, but most of the time I wasn't in class with them. So I'd be kind of isolated by myself. Faruk Ahmed 11:30 This is at southview? Ahmed Nur. 11:31 southview. Yeah, yeah. Unknown Speaker 11:35 Did Did you and the other students, like, at what point? Did you guys see each other or talk to each other? This is like a lunchtime thing? Ahmed Nur. 11:44 Yeah, it'skind of a lunchtime thing or like in passing or something like that. like one of my friends. His name is Keondre and we had a couple of classes together. And that's about it this is in the sixth grade. Faruk Ahmed 12:00 There wasnt really much exposure with the little group of other black kids. Ahmed Nur. 12:06 no Faruk Ahmed 12:06 not with each other. So you went to, Did you finish our middle school at Southview then? Ahmed Nur. 12:13 Yes, I went 6,7,8th and then half of eighth grade, I went to Eden Prairie High School, and then half a ninth grade. I Eden Prairie middle school and a half a ninth grade in high school. And then I went back to Edina, the rest of my career. Unknown Speaker 12:33 Was there. Was there a difference between Eden Prairie Middle School/High School versus southview? Ahmed Nur. 12:40 I say, Yeah, because when I did transfer the Eden Prairie. There was a concentration of Somali people and black people there too. And it seemed like they were more grouped together. So like in the classroom, I'd have maybe like, out of 20 Kids Maybe four or five of us would be black. And so this and I know everybody like that so it just kind of made it easier Faruk Ahmed 13:13 was your experience with schooling any different than like academically with the shift from southview to eden prairie? Ahmed Nur. 13:22 southview to eden prairie not as much. I feel like this shift between me middle school to I mean from elementary to middle school and but at a high school was fine like but I feel like there was a gap for me in elementary to middle school. Faruk Ahmed 13:39 Oh well let's let's go back really quick then. is the shift happened when you went from Whittier to clara barton or? Ahmed Nur. 13:48 ya no, from i think uhh, Clara Barton or to Edina seemed like that that year I spent at Clara Barton. I feel like I didn't progress as much as I should have. And so I was kind of behind in, like reading level or just anything like, like, just academically than other students who were a little bit ahead of me. Faruk Ahmed 14:11 What do you think, if you had to point to something as the as the cause of that, you know, it would just be like, you know, you just didn't feel like you wanted to even try it a school that really didn't (want you) Ahmed Nur. 14:26 I think it's a combination of that. And our like, I wasn't taught enough more Elise in the right ways that was conducive to proper learning. Like, for example, maybe I was more of a visual learner and she's teaching me more auditory, if thats even a word. Faruk Ahmed 14:47 Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Interesting. You said it kind of you kind of fell back into place then through southview? Ahmed Nur. 14:58 Let's see. Yeah. And then also I was in my ESL classes too because I was still learning English kind of because I was already speaking in Somalia at home and then learning English at school so there's a little bit of conflict of like the war is kind of going on in my head confusing. Like past tense like different words punctuation, anything like that. Faruk Ahmed 15:24 So what is what is life like? At home? You know your family? Are you guys moving a lot? I mean, you you switch to schools, I guess from middle school. Are you guys moving like geographically? your family's expanding? Ahmed Nur. 15:42 Yeah, that is expanding. Only thing we moved a couple times. But from what I The reason why I went from Clara Barton to Edina was because I actually lived in edina for like, six to eight months or something. And then we move back to Minneapolis. But though that was The main reason why I was in the edina and other than that, we just moved around Minneapolis. So it wasn't too far, like removed from maybe like, within like, five to eight miles. So it wasn't a crazy shift environment like that. Faruk Ahmed 16:21 That being said, How did it, How was your social life at that point with all the movement? Ahmed Nur. 16:27 social life for me was I always got it wrong. Like I said, with people, either around the neighborhood or I always had friends like no different places or even sports allowed me to make friends with other people. And I didn't always need friends to because I had siblings and I had cousins who usually live around me so I always had people to play with or always do something with our go riding bikes or anything like that. Faruk Ahmed 16:52 Yeah. What kind of sports are you into? Yeah, when I was younger, I played a lot of soccer. So I played at the club level. I played in high school. And then as I grew older, I stopped playing soccer and I started running track and cross country. Did you do any of these sports in high school? Ahmed Nur. 17:13 Oh, yeah, I did. All throughout high school. Faruk Ahmed 17:17 Which one Ahmed Nur. 17:17 I did, I did soccer. Like my was. So I was running. I ran track from eighth grade all the way to my senior in high school. And then I played soccer. I was playing club, a ninth grade and then decided to try the high school team. I think my 10th grade year. I played that for actually no, my ninth grade year. I played that for a little bit and then I quit soccer and started running cross country because that was another fall sport. And I just did that from 10th or 11th, like halfway through 10th grade to the rest of my senior or this month. My high school career. Faruk Ahmed 18:02 Did you? Did you just get into track and cross country just because it was available? Or did you feel like it was something you'd be good at? Like what kind of drew you into that? Ahmed Nur. 18:14 Yeah, I was kind of just been like really fast as fast as a lot of kids. So especially the soccer too, and that is that all of us do track because I can just run short distance and use my speed. And then as I grew older, I seemed like I was doing a lot better and like the longer Sprint's and I still had that speed, and then so my coaches convinced me to come try little distance races, and then I started to do really well. And then they just convinced me even more to train more. And from there, I just stopped playing soccer and just focus more on longer distance running. Faruk Ahmed 18:53 And this is all at edina? Ahmed Nur. 18:54 Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 18:57 So let's shift back to I guess, academic And socially what was high school like for you then? Ahmed Nur. 19:04 Like any other high school, it was like very cliquey. But then again, you find your groups like, I see I fit in a lot of groups like I rode the bus with all like all the African American kids from Annapolis. So like, those are all my friends, I'm really close with them. But then again, I fit in groups with like the athletes like the 60, like the running group, and then I had friends from track who are in other sports so like, they'd be like the football group, so I'd be closer to some of those guys. I'd be closest to the soccer players because they play soccer with them. As it's kind of like that. Just just bouncing in like different groups of people like more of like, even like some of the kids who were like loners example. They be kind of nice to themselves. I was friends with them, just through the having to the classes with people and I feel like interacting with people was really easy for me. So I made a lot of different friends allowed me to kind of go in and out different friend groups. Faruk Ahmed 20:08 Was there were there any hiccups in your, in your social life? Like were there, I don't know. I mean, your experiences, I would want to say unique but it's not like the standard high school experience. You know, people are usually like the clicking up is kind of something that breaks it for them, their their high school experience, but you you're able to fit into a lot of different groups. Ahmed Nur. 20:35 I think. Like, at the moment, it didn't seem like anything was wrong, but I thinking back there's a lot of like, different micro aggressions from people are just like people just like, I don't know, why is this person acting this way, but then like thinking back on like, oh, maybe they just like felt some type of way of me because I'm different. So there's, there's groups, obviously groups of people that weren't fans of me so like I kind of stayed away from them or just or I just wasn't fans of them or their views so I can just like let them do them and I just did me. Faruk Ahmed 21:07 How was the the academic side of your high school experience with your with your teachers, I should say, what was the experience like with your teachers at a predominantly white school? Ahmed Nur. 21:17 It was honestly, like all white people. I don't think I had a single, like, African American teacher in while I was at edina. I had a couple hispanic teachers, one Asian teacher, but like, all teachers really cool is I like in high school never had a problem with any teachers. They're all pretty chill. So my favorite teachers were, were white, and they're like, like, for example, one of my teachers he was on my sociology teacher. He, like kind of got me more engaged, academically saw like he's one of my favorite teachers. Faruk Ahmed 22:02 You didn't? Did you feel any microaggressions? Like, you know, or stuff like that from the teachers at any point? Ahmed Nur. 22:13 No, not really. Faruk Ahmed 22:15 Yeah. That's good. So after high school, what was what were your plans? Were What were you hoping to do? What did you end up doing? Ahmed Nur. 22:30 Well, after high school. I wanted to go to college obviously, the big thing for me too, was trying to still compete at a collegiate level for cross country and track and field. A lot of offers around the country or just different schools. But that would have to have me move. And my parents didn't want me to move out of state or move too far away. So I kind of made it harder on me. Sad turned down a lot of really good offers, like lot of good schools that wanted me and then kind of a like a last minute thing as I kept pushing it off kept trying to see what different schools because I Augsburg was like I was like my safe like my last. Like I'd say like plan z or something like it was like a last thing I could always fall back on. But then last minute, a school in Wisconsin that was like 50 minutes away, convinced me my mom that was a good fit and it wasn't too far away where I could come home whenever I wanted in River Falls, Wisconsin, so I decided to go there for my college career. I only went there for a year and that transferred to Augsburg. Faruk Ahmed 23:47 what was that year like a year in a River Falls do we live in like you're living on campus? Ahmed Nur. 23:53 Yeah, i lived on campus so it was cool. First time I've been able to live on my own. I was a pretty independent person. It wasn't too bad for me. But it was not it was different from high school, but the same because there was a whole bunch of white people there. But it was a different kind of white people. It was more of like people from like, the country. So it was they had their own different ideals kind of different look on things. So there's a little more were like in the cities, like people who are prejudice would be more, be more not confront you as much. theyd just throw around microaggressions are just like passive aggressive like Minnesotans, but here people are a little more upfront with their prejudice. Faruk Ahmed 24:48 did you have in an interaction with anything of that sort? Ahmed Nur. 24:53 Yeah, couple different times. Yeah. second hand witness? No I definitely witnessed it first hand a couple times. I remember one occasion vividly. Me and a bunch of my teammates. We went to really go to this party and go meet up with some other friends. And we go to this house and it's like this house and it's like a car by the school. There's a bunch of people outside. It's like doing whatever. And then we go in there. And they like the owner, the house comes running says, Yeah, we can't come in. What do you mean? Like he pointed to our white teammates? So yeah, we know then they can come in. And they're like, you guys can't come in. i was like, "why" and we were like, they know us. Like you kind of know us whats the point? and yeah, he said "but we don't really like people that color. And a lot of people here will feel uncomfortable, with you guys here" and that guy put it in a nice way, just kind of telling us like, get out of here. And so we left on another occasion, same kind of incident, but we actually had guns pulled out on us telling us to leave. Faruk Ahmed 26:06 So the first incident was that was with other students? Ahmed Nur. 26:10 mhmm. Faruk Ahmed 26:11 and the second? Ahmed Nur. 26:12 The second is the same thing. It was like pretty much the same group of people I was with almost, but the maybe like one of our team that one of our white teenagers with us, but the rest of us were, two somali guys, three African American guys, and then one white guy, and they pointed the gun at us and told us to get the fuck out of here. sorry about my language. Faruk Ahmed 26:38 Nah its cool. What did you guys make of the first one versus the second one? Ahmed Nur. 26:46 The first one was like whatever I all they're like they're just hating on us like just because just because you know, our skin tone but then like the other occasion. We just it was It's almost surreal just because we were like that really happened because you don't really like run into that situation every day was like you kind of just like confused with it just shock I didn't think it actually happened. Like say like dreaming or something. I was like a figure of my immagination like was he really holding a gun like It was like this is weird situation. Yeah Faruk Ahmed 27:24 it's it's Yeah, I can't imagine how surreal it would be for somebody to threaten your life because they don't like your that you're black or your skin tone. Was that one of the one of the factors of you wanted to come back to Minneapolis or come to augsburg or go to augsburg. Was that kind of like you're already on your way out of there. Ahmed Nur. 27:53 Yeah, I was already kind of on my way out of there because I was dealing with that same kind of BS on the team Because.. Faruk Ahmed 28:01 within your track team? Ahmed Nur. 28:04 my cross country here because like it seemed like the the other only the older white guys really were like together and they really just like excluded us because we were the more talented younger and darker people on team and so they kind of i feel like they're they're envious of us, yes but they also just didn't like how we did things because we're we came in we were a little more like not me exactly like some other teammates. Everybody was confident was confident in their abilities, but like some other teammates were a little more braggadocious they were like more out there and vocal about their, about their abilities and how they're really the best on the team. So they deserve more respect and a lot of other guys didnt really like that. Faruk Ahmed 29:07 How did they respond? Ahmed Nur. 29:09 Uh, we never really were confronted like that except, like, more like nonverbal things are like, they talked to the coaches and the coaches would come talk to us and tell us things like second hand. But there was one incident of like one of the captains he was his really intoxicated one day after a race one night after he said, he was kind of like, was like venting to all of us saying like how he does because we're we're so cocky we think we know it all. This that this and he, at one point to one of my teammates was, was like, I think he's recently said he's like, to quote him he was like; "my nigga why are you saying this" and the guy was like, the white guy was like "what? did you just call me a nigger" and like he just kind of like started going off and started using out like start using the N word towards that teammate of mine and so that's kind of like fractured the relationship even more between like us younger guys and the older guys Faruk Ahmed 30:27 How did your your teammate respond to the you from teammate repeating the N word at him? Ahmed Nur. 30:37 How did he respond? Faruk Ahmed 30:40 was there like a physical? Ahmed Nur. 30:41 oh no there's was nothing physical is all verbal but was like yelling and then like the day after, or if the next time you have practice when you like he apologize and everything he's like, oh, that wasn't me, like trying to like mend, like men the fence like mend the relationship. But like once that line is crossed, kind of like you can't really go back. You know, he, like the saying goes like, was this like a, like a drunk person always, like speak like the truth or something like that but Faruk Ahmed 31:12 yeah, I've heard what youre talking about. Yeah. So the transition from UW River Falls was going to happen. Yeah, for me for me. Yeah, because I thought I didn't really like it There just and I just wanted to go back to Minneapolis because it's just, it is rather be at home and go to school and like, save some money too. And I was still in contact with the coach that was at Augsburg at the time. And he was like, Yeah, I would love to have you here. And then literally one day in the summer, he just like, one day I was like I said, tickler falls next day everything was gone. Like in three days. I changed schools and then like on that third day I reported for training camp and my my new team It was like out of the blue like that so the transition was smooth then. Ahmed Nur. 32:12 Yeah, yeah, that's pretty sweet. Faruk Ahmed 32:14 What was so how was your experience at augsburg. Ahmed Nur. 32:21 Augsburg really it was really cool vibe. I really liked it because I already knew people who were here. It was a tight knit community small is very diverse. Is has its own problems but like it wasn't as noticeable as like other places. But I liked the team. I liked the coach a lot. The team was cool. Campus. I liked how, where it was located. I have access to a lot of things. I can live at home as a 10 min drive to to school. I could work, i could still goto practice and I like it was no problem Faruk Ahmed 33:04 well its interesting you mentioned it augsburg having its own problems like what you talked about like athletics were you talking about just the school like your experience at the school I mean you don't have to get too deep into if you don't want to but anything that you don't want to but I just find it interesting that you that's one of the things that you mentioned. Ahmed Nur. 33:24 Yeah. no, it has on problems in terms of like there's still people who have prejudice towards like other groups of people whether it's like race our religion for or anything like that. Like I had a teammate this this girl actually she she was a really really big conservative I she was a nice girl like no problems at all but like she had like these very, very far right views and then she would like Like talk about her views a lot. And like, like one of the wildest things she said to me was he's talking about how Ronald Reagan was the best thing to ever happen to like America. And like looking back in history, and that is definitely wrong and like, kind of a problematic statement to say. And she like, and I was another teammate of mine to a guy, same kind of thing that was from the south. And he also had this kind of same ideals and the, they just were more like, the guy was more abrasive, and they were just kind of like, spew their own ideology, and just kind of like, try to work people up sometimes. I see a few things. And people try to brush it off. And I've confronted him a couple times and like they stop saying, like, over time. Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 34:58 Were there any other like athletes of color. black? you know, on the team on the track team? Ahmed Nur. 35:05 Yeah on the team. So when I first came, there's only one black as one only one African American person on the team. I listened to cross country to it when I joined. Also, my friend also joined who's also Somali. So the three of us. And then the track team is different because there's more African American people on the team, but the cross country team, there's only us three. And then as like, I went throughout my career, like every year, I'd like to still be in contact with some of the people I used to compete against, like one of my friends ended up going to River Falls because he thought we were going there because he wanted to be with us. And then so he got stuck there for a year. And so he also transferred to Augsburg and as well as another, somali guy on the team and then over time like it got more diverse because people start seeing us there and they kind of like; we kind of pulled them in and they just came here. Faruk Ahmed 36:16 Did your friend and then teammate who went to River Falls first and then transferred over, Ahmed Nur. 36:22 Yeah Faruk Ahmed 36:23 was his experience that you could you guys speak about Ahmed Nur. 36:25 he had the same experience. Yeah. Faruk Ahmed 36:27 yeah. So you did you end up finishing your undergrad here at augsburg? Ahmed Nur. 36:36 Yep, yep. Yep. Finished in 2016 Faruk Ahmed 36:40 would you share your major? Ahmed Nur. 36:43 Oh yeah. I saw I had I got data management major with the marketing minor. Faruk Ahmed 36:50 was, was augsburg like for you socially, academically? Ahmed Nur. 36:57 Academically is really cool. At first. I can augsburg wanting to do secondary education and sociology so I took as taking some social classes my first semester augsburg and met some like really cool people, some really cool teachers. I met this one teacher His name is Lars Christiansen is really like trendy dude who always dresses nice he like he's really cool guy always bikes to school, like doesn't matter the weather. So he kind of like he really like kind of, I think he embodied what Augsburg was and how like pretty inclusive of a School it is. and he kind of preached being close with everybody like doesn't matter the ethnicity, nationality, the religion, the gender, anything like that so its like, is cool to see that and so this was refreshing and honestly at augsburg I don't think I had a bad teacher like as a; when I transferred to the business side also had some great teachers to like I had one teacher John Cerrito he's well known in the business department he's he's a really fun guy like he's very relatable and like he really gets to know you as a person and I all my teachers like it I really liked augsburg because it was like the class size was so small the teacher can really get to know you they can build a relationship with the teacher so I really had relationships with my all my teachers to the point where like I can have like that like know them like on a first name basis or I could go drop into their office and we don't even sometimes have to talk about schoolwork we just like catch up by anything. Socially, same kind of thing like as I be like this still like groups of people, you know, like hang out with each other. But like going to the lounge was it was cool big. The nice thing with his meeting all these people and then being different groups to allowed me to meet different people, like, PASU, the Pan Afrikan Student Union I was on I was part of it from the beginning when I was at Augsburg, and towards the end, I was Augsburg. I was a PR officer. And then I also then became the vice president. And so I met a lot of had relations with a lot of the students of color at Augsburg. Faruk Ahmed 39:36 Do you have any, if you were to give advice to in an upcoming or incoming freshman, cross country student from let's say, edina, what would you would you share with them? Ahmed Nur. 39:57 I probably share with the biggest things Time management, because everybody wants to come to college, you're going to have more free time than your, the you know what to do with. So that free time is what's going to like, make or break you academically and socially. So if you, for example, use all your free time socially, your academics is gonna go down with you all your free time academically, your social life might go down. So it's kind of having to find the balance. And it's hard yet but you just have to find your your routine as a big thing. And finding a group of people that you feel close to, or connected to. It's going to make things a lot easier because for example, studying you know, you might start taking classes with some nice people, but getting to know people around classes, because you're going to have to see them later on like, especially in the same majors, you can help each other out with different homework or studying for exams or anything. So just building those relationships is key. And keeping that in mind trying not to burn too many bridges. Or, and yeah just be mindful of your surroundings because you have to always be like on your 10 toes because you can actually expect anything to happen. Whether academically socially, or just any day. you know? Faruk Ahmed 41:37 what's next for Ahmed? Ahmed Nur. 41:40 for me? For Ahmed? Oh, that's a good question, man. I'm trying to figure that out. Hopefully finding the career path that I like starting our business starting a family Yeah, just the Typical dream. Faruk Ahmed 42:06 so I want to finish up with you kind of giving me an overview of your experience as a Muslim growing up and coming through like you know go with your education and whatnot so from like maybe your first maybe like you know when when you first noticed that people did not really like you know, your your faith or do not have did not align with their beliefs and whatnot, and how that kind of if that's something that followed you, yeah, just an overall view of your experience. Ahmed Nur. 42:56 Thinking Back I've always got just like remarks like like people ask what I'm doing when I'm praying especially at school I see someone sees me in a corner praying or someone sees me in classroom praying they just just very confused. I've had the the people tapping on your shoulder asking What are you doing?But thinking back it.. high school, no problems really with as as being Muslim. In high school, I saw the problems more being this black. And as I grew older, it it kind of morphed into also being Muslim was viewed wrong. Because like all of that high school, my cross country team was very was very willing to work with me and my religion, especially during Ramadan, um, like my coaches Allow me to practice at different times or if I come in and like they'd have they had me come in earlier than or morning practice like when this before the sun goes up the have some food ready for me or I have an evening practice. And right after I hit the showers and they didn't have some food ready for me, or they had some drinks ready for me or something. So they're very they're, they're willing to work with me. As it grew older. My experiences changed a little bit because I was like, the people around me were mainly black Muslims, so like Somali people, either like Ethiopian people or people like that. Like those are the kind of people that are around me, like my, my mosque and so I never really saw a difference until I got older and seeing the different type of I was a prejudice but like people Just kind of like demean black Muslims leave I see like, people were from like Arab countries they think a little more highly of themselves. I never had any instances, but I've heard from my friends like different problems at a different mosque or just like like, like you can be praying next to someone to be in line with someone and like you're supposed to keep a straight line like toes are supposed to be touching like people and like some some other Muslim people would not let a black person like foot touch their foot. And like that's a very backwards way of thinking because this is a religion that preaches oneness and brother brotherhood, like everyone is supposed to be in this together and have no ill will but like this was.. uh.. im kind of lost for words. Unknown Speaker 46:06 I see what you mean, kind of like you know no one's above no nationality no race is above the other. Unknown Speaker 46:11 exactly like only person who is above everybody else's god you know like mean Who are you to belittle someone else so that's that's something I I've noticed like I said it hasn't happened to me but like people around me have told me about situations like this and you see online like on Twitter for example you can see these these these lands are Shiekhs talking about different things are like people are always trying to pray for like Arab countries, for example that need aid and like raising aid for them as Yeah, they do need aid, they do need to help. But there's also countries where there's black Muslims that need the help too I'm not just gonna say Somalia because I'd be bias on my end but is this black Muslims like being like enslaved in Libya for example that's not getting any coverage people aren't worrying and people aren't bringing awareness to it really. You see it here and there but like, you see black it being bought all over like North Africa and in the Arab countries. And this is very sickening to see that this religion is so beautiful, being twisted like this. And just because of the skin color, like we are all supposed to be in this together and fearing God, but this is a sad see. But at my age right now 26 years old, I guess I had no real problems. With like another like Muslim person for example, but you know, if you've had you get those like, you know, on a Friday prayer, I'll be like wearing a Khamiis or something. Like, in when I was younger I've had like, people make comments. So like, what does that dress you're wearing? Like so some people are ignorant to that like that. But their ignorance comes from like misinformation or just being misguided by the media or just not knowing, you know. So I've told people that like, this is not a dress, this is like religious garb like tell them the significance behind it. And I'd be like, I tell them to say, if someone's walking in a kilt, would you be like Oh, nice dress, because I know you understand the, the this cultural significance behind the kilt. So why can't you understand the cultural significance behind Khamiis. and Um, being Minneapolis and with so many somali people Being here. I feel like we've been targeted on multiple fronts. On one front being black actually like a moderate one for being black and another front being Muslim, and then another front being Somali. So that's like this three things someone who is a racist could attack me on my religion, my nationality and my my ethnicity. And so this is this is weird. Grow like this is a weird place to grow up in especially now that I'm older I can see like I know the people who are younger than me something to have to go through like my siblings telling me about a school how people are, are are standing up and actually be more vocal about their their their hate for some odd people or their hate for Some people more than you see them. Speaking of about someone being black, for example, so you see more hate based on that same just had a story of mine. I just lost my train of thought. Faruk Ahmed 50:20 That's cool. We can be back here to let, Ahmed Nur. 50:25 actually I guess I could talk about growing up to like, it's understandable like, hate coming from, like, let's say a person who like a Caucasian person because they don't have the the right I'm so different from them. But growing up also there was hate from African American people like black African American people, people who are native to the US, you know, so looking at like, if you see me and a black person, I go after mega person, we are the same person. We were the same, like there shouldn't be any distinction between us. But growing up, especially when I was younger, I felt like I had to fight for my blackness because people wouldn't say No, you're not. You're not black, you know, you're you're African, there's difference. There's difference. And reality there really isn't. Like, we all come from the same area, like we are from the same continent. Like you, your family might have your lineage, your immediate needs might be here, or my immediate lineage might be there. There's there's no difference but it's just I don't know where this is the virus coming from maybe I don't know. It's, there's a term I remember. reading about the like the crab effect. I don't know if you heard about it? Faruk Ahmed 51:59 crabs in a bucket? Ahmed Nur. 52:00 exactly crabs in the bucket. You know they're they're trying to breathe the air so they're pulling people down or the crabs down around them stretch to get to the top. So I feel like that's something that kind of happens in our community and so people are putting each other down trying to elevate themselves when we should be elevating of each other. Faruk Ahmed 52:23 Yeah Why do you Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's such a? You know, I've gotta go get it I've gotta go get it and pull down whatever it is, is keeping me from it. What do you think that kind of stems from? Ahmed Nur. 52:37 You know, I honestly don't know. I've like tried to like rationalize this many times trying to think through was like, What causes you know, someone to, like think like this, you know, like, this is maybe some of the way the way they were raised or like you know, I is this is very, it's very confusing. Maybe it's poverty maybe? Faruk Ahmed 53:10 I, that's kind of what I kind of gear towards, like, you know, the resources in these communities that are, you know, predominantly black, you know, with people of color, there's just such a gross lack of; you know, that it does become a, a fight for survival. You know, you have all these people, all these different groups of people who are all fighting to survive with with crumbs, you know, given to them by, you know, the predominately white run society, the society that benefits you know, not people of color. So, that's that's kind of what I've kind of geared towards the answer, you know, I mean, but definitely I also and somali person do recall some of the The clashing and the conflicts betweenAfricans and like migrant Africans and African Americans. Yeah, did you this was so much more so your, your, your younger life or is that something that continues, you know, to this day for you? I haven't seen as much recently but like, I see it online like other people I hadn't discussions, you know, like it and you can even dive deeper into it, not just the, the, the discussion between being African and African American, you know, but then like, diving deep into it also like African people are have like a some somewhat of a more of a superiority complex because, you know, I might be from West Africa and I think that people from East Africa or less Africa than I am because of data Like there the slave trade was more prevalent in the West than the East for example, and you guys didn't struggle like we struggled but all together like it's you kind of understand what im trying to say? I'm kind of I'm a little I just got stuck lost my train of thought. But. we could be done? what do you think? you could take that little part its just i dont know kind of just like that part? yeah. Well that's all I have for you. is there anything you'd like to add? Ahmed Nur. 55:51 nothing really you know, peace, love and positivity. Faruk Ahmed 55:55 Alright man, I appreciate you. Ahmed Nur. 55:56 Yeah, see you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript Oral History Interview with Fowsiya Hassan, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Ayann Hodleh 0:00 Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit abou...
Show more Ayann Hodleh 0:00 Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit about yourself? Fowsiya Hassan 0:25 Yes, my name is Fowsiya. I was born in the 80s. I was born to Mogadishu, Somalia. I have ten siblings, two parents, mother and a father. Ayann Hodleh 0:41 Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your time when you were living in Somalia, your childhood? Fowsiya Hassan 0:49 Well, I spent 15 years in Mogadishu before the war broke out. Things in Somalia aren't as easy as things in the United States. Ayann Hodleh 1:03 What do you mean by that? Fowsiya Hassan 1:05 By that I mean most of our transportation was by foot. And most days, we take vehicles, and we had to travel for long distances. I would use me going took Dugsi as an example, we'd walk at least a mile there and a mile back. Almost every day. I spent almost five hours and sometimes more at Dugsi. Dugsi is a Islamic Studies. When I wasn't spending my mornings or evenings at Dugi, I was helping my Hooyo(Mom) and Abo(dad), at the fleet store they owned. It was a small but very convenient for all my people. My Abo(dad), an older brothers, were hard workers. They worked long, sleepless hours to make money. It's not like America. You know where You get a paycheck either weekly, bi weekly, or salary. My Abo and Hooyo worked hard so me and my sisters can have an education. I lived in a small house with two bedrooms. It wasn't big, but it worked for us. We had a maid that lived with us, and she took care of us when my Hooyo and Abo weren't around when they were working at the fleet. When I was around 11 a civil war broke out in Somalia. My parents store was destroyed, and we had to flee the country. We fled there and we went to Kenya, where there were lots of refugee camps. After staying there for almost four years, my parents made a hard choice. into sending me, my brother and my sister to the states where they wanted us to have a better education. Ayann Hodleh 3:12 So, how did your parents send you guys here? Like, they stayed behind? Who did you guys come here with? Fowsiya Hassan 3:23 There were a group of Americans that worked at a church who were helping people at the refugee camp get asylums. They helped us come to America. Ayann Hodleh 3:40 Before we get into your transportation of like how you got here, and your experience can tell me a little bit about the refugee camp, how it was staying there, what kind of place you stayed in, did you meet any people and then what was like the difference between back home in Somalia Mogadishu and the refugee camps? Fowsiya Hassan 4:05 We stayed in like, these tent kind of things. There were multiple scattered all over, like land. I would say the difference is, you're in a tent full of almost 15 or 20 different people that you probably don't know, that are all fleeing the same country. And it's not like my house that I grew up in it was just me, my family members and our maid. It was a very crowded area where there weren't many places to sleep. There weren't many beds that were offered so some of us had to sleep on the ground at nights. There wasn't enough space for us to play like you would play in our house. So we would always play outside in the open land. And just play like kickball or somethin that was our version? Ayann Hodleh 5:06 So, um, can you tell me a little bit about any relationships, friendships that you had either back home and that you had to like, leave or that you made while you're at the refugee camps? Fowsiya Hassan 5:23 Yeah, I met some friends that were in the refugee camp with me. Her name was Khadija. She was around my age. She only had like a year and a half on me. I met a boy that I really liked. But he couldn't come to America like me and my siblings, because they didn't allow him an asylum. Which was really sad because only a few people would get selected from every kind of refugee camp to get asylum. Ayann Hodleh 6:03 That's pretty sad. Can you tell me a little bit about when you were selected to come to America and how your transportation here was and I know it's different back home than here. So like, your feelings how you felt about it. I felt you mentioned how you left your mom and your dad. Fowsiya Hassan 6:33 Some of my siblings. Wow, so hard. It was. When we were getting selected. I didn't really know how the process was because my Hooyo(mom) and Abo(dad) dealt with that. All I know is when my mother came to us and told us I assumed that my entire family was leaving America. But she broke it down to me, my sister, and brother that it was only us three going there. We have family in the United States. So that's where we were going to go. The transportation that day when we were leaving was a very interesting one because of the fact that I've never been on a plane. I didn't know how a plane operated. It was all something new to me and different. So it was kind of very scary. Imagine being 15 and didn't know how that thing operated. How was it even in the air? And it was just me, my sister, my brother. So we didn't have any older parents with us or anybody older of age at the time. Ayann Hodleh 7:58 Can you tell me bit of how when you flew here, I know like the malls and the food courts in the airport were probably different. Can you tell me a little bit about that. Were you surprised? Fowsiya Hassan 8:13 I was very surprsied due to the fact that me and my even my two older siblings were still under age. So we had a flight attendant, who was kind to us throughout our entire flight. She was on joint flights with us wherever we went. Obviously, the food was different. And we didn't really touch anything. Because we didn't know what was halal and what wasn't, so it was kind of we didn't really eat other than drink and maybe have like, chips. I think that's the first time we had chips. Ayann Hodleh 8:55 So when you came to America, where did you first come to and how did it feel adapting to staying with somebody that was your family, but you don't really know them before. It was just you and your siblings. Fowsiya Hassan 9:12 Um, we went to Minnesota. And at the time, it was a very low population for Somali people but my uncle was there with his wife and his two kids, and obviously not knowing them it was it was kind of scary, but obviously their family so we got used to it. They became additional siblings, because we stayed with them for about 10 years until my parents and rest of my siblings came. Adapting to a climate especially like Minnesota, the first time I think I seen snow. I freaked out. Because I've never been in such a place. Ayann Hodleh 10:03 It's true. Even people that live in America that don't live in Minnesota are very surprised by our weather. Um, can you tell me a little about when you came here you were 15, so that means you went to high school here, correct? Fowsiya Hassan 10:19 Yes I started a sophomore year, I think towards the middle ish. I really can't remember. But it was sophomore year of high school. Um, it was a very different type of school. From when I was around. We had like four class periods, and that was interesting. I was in ESL because I didn't know much English. So up until I graduated here. People were very, they're kind of rude. Ayann Hodleh 11:06 Would you say that the schooling is harder here or back home? Fowsiya Hassan 11:13 I would say that schooling here is different and a little hard, but I was good at math and science. English wasn't my subject. Gym was my subject too I was very fast runner. By the age of 17, I got my first job. It was the YWCA. It was the first time I've ever had to balance school and work at the same time. I had to learn the hard way, how to kind of balance those two because I wanted to help my uncle and aunt who are supporting me so that we can help my family back home as well. Ayann Hodleh 12:06 So I know for my family that we're always sending money back home. So is that basically the same thing that you were doing? You would have to basically just work for everybody that was back home you aren't really working for yourself. So how did that make you feel as a child? Fowsiya Hassan 12:22 Yeah, especially at 17 I think I only kept like $30 to my name for most of my checks. We send about 100 or more from my check, my siblings, aunts and uncles money. So we send money back to support our loved ones back home. Ayann Hodleh 12:46 Okay, can you tell me about how when your parents came here and how you also got into the business that you have right now. Fowsiya Hassan 12:59 Yeah. I believe I was 21 when the rest of my family members and my parents came. It was a very it was a very exciting time. But I mean it's also very sad because it was about six years that I haven't seen my mom or dad, my brother and sisters. So it was a happy and sad day. uhm so around when I was 25 years old My older brother and sister who came to America with me, decided to open up a family daycare that I worked at. I got into a very bad accident at the time and the settlement money that I got from it. I decided to buy the family daycare because my older siblings are opening more locations for themselves. I wanted to get into the business as well. The way my siblings got into the business was that they didn't really finish high school. They were just very hard workers. And they decided to open up a childcare center. And that's how I got into the business as well. After I finished school, did some college, I decided to take over. Ayann Hodleh 14:28 How was it being a business owner at the age of 25? Like what were some difficulties that you faced? Did you get help from your family? Fowsiya Hassan 14:40 Um, I would say there, there's a lot of difficulties that comes with being, you know, a business owner at the time, especially 25. My brother and sister were very helpful. The hard thing I would say would be, you know, since I'm a new business owner, having other parents trust me, especially with not knowing me. Like they know my siblings. I'm earning their trust to come to my child care center was difficult at the time Ayann Hodleh 15:18 Is the reason why you did not finish college because that the child care center. Fowsiya Hassan 15:25 Yes. Ayann Hodleh 15:32 How did you feel about not finishing college because you were telling me how you like school when you were back home and how your parents like worked really hard for you to get a good education. Fowsiya Hassan 15:45 I wasn't really upset about it. I mean I went there for two years. I just think that I had other priorities. And I obviously had to grow up pretty fast. So at the time, it just wasn't something for me. Ayann Hodleh 16:00 Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your life now? I know now you're married and you have kids. Can you tell me a little bit about that and the childcare center? Fowsiya Hassan 16:12 Yeah. So, um, I met my husband. right around the time that you know, I started becoming a business owner. We got married after two years, aroundwhen I was 27 we got married and I had my first child around 28. it was very hard balancing, you know, a new marriage, a new child, and also a new business. And it was just something all new to me. And obviously, I had an amazing, you know, family to support me and help me with everything. So that made it pretty, pretty smooth. a funny story is my husband was also working at my siblings childcare at the time in the office. So you could already see how much of a taboo that was. Because we don't do dating within our culture. So, we would always kind of try flirting here and there at the time, my parents, and my older brother, weren't really fond of me wanting to get married to him to...to his tribe. Within our culture, you know, tribes are really big thing. And that causes some people not to get married, because they'll be like, "Oh, so and so is Dhulbahante(a tribe) or so and so is Majarteen(another tribe)" or who we are and then like, they don't want a certain tribes mixing with other tribes, so they didn't want me marry him because of his tribe. I had to really fight and defend for him so that I can marry him. Ayann Hodleh 18:10 Can you tell me a little bit more about why is this so important? for a woman to marry within her tribe, I guess compared to a man? Fowsiya Hassan 18:23 Well, for me being a woman, when you marry a man, you when you marry him, your children will end up taking his tribe, rather than your tribe or, you know, yeah, like example would be when you get married, you would take your husband's last name, and your children would take his last name. We do do that with names and also tribes, your your tribe he's his tribe. And your children will be his tribe. Make sense? Ayann Hodleh 19:03 Yeah. So basically why it's more strict on women to marry a man from a good tribe is because you're, it's going to go from generation to generation. It's going to be your kids, and then your grandkids and so forth, so forth and so on. Fowsiya Hassan 19:22 That's only of you are a male. So if I have daughter they take my husbands tribe right, and whoever they marry their kids will take the person they marry tribe. Whereas if I have a son my sons will carruy on my husbands tribe legacy. Ayann Hodleh 19:51 What do you think that? I know tribes was such a big deal back home. It's a lot of the reasons why a lot of wars broke out, a lot of fighting happened. Do you think and I know it's pretty strong within like my parents and your generation, do you think it's going to be like that in the future? Fowsiya Hassan 20:16 From the looks of, you know, kids around your generation now, it's slightly might be, but I don't think it would strongly be the way we were sort of are per se. We were very strong on our ideals, and who we were going to get married to, but within your generation, it doesn't, it doesn't look the same. Ayann Hodleh 20:45 Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your life now? How many kids do you have? Do you have other businesses and so forth. Fowsiya Hassan 21:00 Yeah, I have three daughters, two are twins. And a daughter who's the oldest, two boys. One being the youngest of the mom. And the other one being the second oldest. Um, so I have a total of five children. And we live, we live in Minnesota to start out and we actually stayed semi within a Minneapolis area. Um, I have two child cares now. They're pretty, pretty busy, keep me busy. I'm always on my toes with them. Um, I've been in the childcare business for about 10-12 years now, I would say um, my recent one which I opened back in 2015 and then my first one being I bought from my siblings. So you got to experience the good parts of Somalia before the Civil War broke out. Do you plan on living in Minnesota forever? Do you plan on taking your family back home? Have your kids visit My children are kind of my too young right now to remember and experience there. And I do plan on taking them sometime in the near future. I do want them to know the roots that I came from, where I was raised, where I spent, you know, most of up until my teenage years growing up, I want them to also know refugee camp I spent most of my time. I just want them to, you know, know where I came from as well. Cuz they were born in America, so they haven't experienced, you know, the struggle that I had to go through and get here. And I really want them to forever cherish that whenever they get the opportunity to remember when I tell them Ayann Hodleh 23:18 So in the near future what do you plan on doing business wise? Are you planning on going back to school? , Fowsiya Hassan 23:28 um, yeah, I currently went, I'm currently back in school. Um, I want to explore more into the business world. I want to open up a mental health clinic for you know, our fellow people our fellow Somalis. And because it's such a non spoken thing, within our culture, mental health and I want to explore, you know, just kind of grow on that Um, I've been, you know, studying psychology, doing some social work stuff. Just so you know, I could expand my horizons. And yeah, I hope to, you know, open a clinic very soon. Hopefully, I would say in like the next maybe two years, hopefully, um, I still want to continue managing, you know, the daycares, but maybe have some help and more support so I can manage more than just the daycare and the mental clinic as well. Ayann Hodleh 24:40 I like how you touched on how mental healh, it isn't really talked about in our Somali community, especially in Minnesota right now. There's a whole outbreak within our people that are depressed, have anxiety, addictions, drinking, which is probably something you're really surprised about, because I'm not really surprised about it because I just grew up around it. But looking at it from like our parents point of view, my parents point of view, like your generation point of view, it's probably crazy. A little bit about that. Fowsiya Hassan 25:21 Um, yeah, I would say, exactly. That's, it's not a really spoken thing. Especially, you know, those who have dealt with the war around my generation. Depression isn't talked about, especially, I mean, imagine you are living a perfect life one minute, and a war happens the next and now you're being told, you have to flee your home, flee the only place that you knew and you are not voluntarily leaving. You're being forced to leave. It's very depressing. You know, I would say I have some depression. And that's why I'm exploring this. It's not spoken about. So it's you know, for your generation, as well, you know, the opioid addictions that I've been hearing about. It's very eye opening sometimes that as an older generation, why are you not dealing with our own problems? why are not dealing with our children's problems and helping them cope. And we're not, you know, being open enough with them, understanding what's going on in their lives. I mean, sure, they haven't, you know, lived like something that we had to deal with a civil war. But I mean, Minneapolis is kind of very dangerous place. You know, you never know there's people being killed. gun violence is spiking up in the city. And that's something I want to talk about more. You know, with the whole opioid epidemic that's happening, you know, all these children their problems are being spiked from somewhere. And I know that growing up, even with, you know, with my parents, if something bothered me, it was really, we weren't supposed to talk about it. We weren't taught to express our feelings and you know, just express what's hurting us. What's making us sad, what's getting us upset, we're just more so taught like, you know, hold on and hustle. You know, just like, get more in tune with your religion. And I mean, don't get me wrong. Getting in tune with your religion is one thing, but it won't always solve some things, especially when someone can't express how they feel, and talk to others. I just want, you to know, to help children out there and adults as well to, you know, find a place that they could express themselves and feel comfortable talking to somebody that's going to help when they need it, you know, just a go to place where they know they are welcome. And they, are not judged based on what they're going through, and not just told, you know, go read Quran, it'll make it better. I mean, do it Yes, but everyone needs someone to talk to. And I want to be able to be that person that anybody can kind of come in contact with. It could be the clinic, you know. I want people to be able to say "oh, hey, I know a great clinic. Fowsiyas is a great, amazing place. You should go there. She's got people that are there and They'll help you with anything, they're open ears, they are anonymous, a mental zone." I just want to be able to be there for everybody. Ayann Hodleh 29:05 I really like what you're trying to do for the community, I definitely feel like we need a lot more of that, especially in Minnesota, because of this whole epidemic that's going on. And this whole, all these mental illnesses that people are, like kids my age, and even adults are coming out and talking about because a lot of things within the small community is not talked about, they just think oh let me just cover up this persons mistakes and shame, but that's definitely not working out. And I think we're finally starting to understand and see that. So I really appreciate what you're doing for the community. I really appreciate you doing this interview for me, Is there anything that you want to add or, you know, that covered it? Fowsiya Hassan 29:46 Ah, I think we covered it all. I really, you know, this was an amazing interview to you know, getting to know me, What I plan on doing near future, what I've been through and I just appreciate it. Ayann Hodleh 30:08 Well thank you and good luck with everything that you're trying to do Fowsiya Hassan 30:12 You as well. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Mary Laurel True, 2015
Collection: HIS 300 Oral History Project
Search Result: Interview with Mary Laurel True Interviewed on 3/16/2015 Augsburg College Oral History Project Interviewed by Bethany Brown MT – Mary Laurel True BB – Bethany Brown Time Log 0.10 BB: Hello, my name is Bethany Brown, I’m here with Mary Laurel True at the Sabo Center, at 624 21st Avenue Sou...
Show more Interview with Mary Laurel True Interviewed on 3/16/2015 Augsburg College Oral History Project Interviewed by Bethany Brown MT – Mary Laurel True BB – Bethany Brown Time Log 0.10 BB: Hello, my name is Bethany Brown, I’m here with Mary Laurel True at the Sabo Center, at 624 21st Avenue South. [Um] Mary works here...has worked here for about 20 years– MT: –Five, twenty five. 0.30 BB: Twenty five years [um] and I will be interviewing her today. [Um] the date is March [MT whispers date] sixteenth, 2015, and the time is 12:07. [Um] so my first question is, where did you grow up? MT: I grew up in Worcester, Massachusetts, in [ah] Central Mass, from the time I was six until I was eightteen, when I came to the Twin Cities to go to St Catherine’s University. BB: Oh, I also went there! MT: Oh, you did, ok! BB: Ah, what years did you go to St Kates? MT: I went there from ‘77 to 1981. BB: And what did you study while you were there? 1.00 MT: I studied [um] Spanish and Communications, and [um] I actually was a student [um] in Cuernavaca through Augsburg College, through the Center for Global Education. And I, and I studied Spanish in Sevilla, Spain, too. BB: So your trip to Mexico was through St Kates, or through Augsburg? Time Log 1.20 MT: It was an Augsburg trip, but through St Kates, so [false start] it was the very first year of the Augsburg Center for Global Education– BB: Gotcha. MT: –in which students could [um], you know, they could get credit through their own institution, but it came, [uh] it was an Augsburg program. BB: So is it kind of like [um] I don’t remember if the status of those two schools were kind of the way they are now these days–the Associated Colleges? MT: Yes, mm-hmm, right. BB: Okay! That’s awesome! MT: Yeah! BB: [Um] So, in your...tell me about your trip to Mexico, in ‘79. 1.54 MT: Sure. Well, I [um], [false start] I thought about this a lot because it had a huge impact on the rest of my life, and what happened was I, you know, I was interested in Spanish and I saw this table in the, you know, you think these tables are not that important and, and like, we have them in Christensen, and someone was advertising for a trip to Mexico. And it just so happened to be Augsburg, I didn’t really know much about Ausgburg at all, signed up for the trip, and I was with [um] sixteen other students from around the country, mainly Augsburg students. But [um] [false start], so we loaded up, Augsburg had a van, and all of us got in the van– BB: You drove down? 2.33 MT: –and we drove down with the director of the program Joel Mugge, who [um] was a professor here at Ausgburg who started the program, and his wife and their 2-year-old– BB: Oh, wow. 2.41 MT: –and [um] we spent the whole semester there, and it was a crazy Time Log semester because it was, you know, 1978, it was [um]...there was a lot going on in Latin America, but it was an-it was a life changing experience, it was incredibly good and [um] that program’s still in existence here at Augsburg, it’s gotten really well known, and [um] I still know a lot of the people that were on my trip, and [um], it-it was just–and I learned a lot about Augsburg, I learned about its commitment to experiential education, which I’m involved with now [um], and I learned how much students knew about the whole workings of the college, which I–the students at Augs- [corrects herself] at St Kates really didn’t know, you know, they didn’t know the president, they didn’t know the director of financial aid, and all the Augsburg students knew everyone at the college, and-and I learned about all the other cool things students got to do for credit, you know, it was just, it was am-amazing, so [um] [false start]...When I came back from Mexico, I spent a lot of time on the Augsburg campus, and [um] on the West Bank, ‘cause I was really interested in social justice issues, and the West Bank is much [um] more robust for issues going on than [false start] the area around St Kates, and so...so I got to know [um] like the North Country Co-op was here, [um] I lived with some friends in a house, a lot of the houses were [um], are no longer–ALL of them are no longer here, and including– these are the last two [referring to Sabo Center and the former Center for Counseling and Health Promotion] that are going to come down in a couple months, so [um]– BB: So was that, with-with the North Contry Co-op [false start] were these houses, these two houses, in that vicinity? 4.21 MT: Yeah, well the Co-op was right where [um] the Library is, well actually OGC [Oren Gateway Center] is on the corner of 22nd, yeah it started there, and [um] it was the first location of the Co-op, that’s the mother of all the other co-ops in the Twin Cities, too, North Country. And [um] so it was on the Augsburg campus for years, we owned the building, and so people, a lot of students would got there and it was really great to be here in the [uh] late seventies or early eighties. BB: Why did they decide to tear that building down, or any of the other buildings? I mean, just to expand the college? 4.58 MT: All the houses, yeah, a lot of the houses were in disrepair because students could live in them, like you could, it was like Anderson, that’s why they modeled Anderson the way it is now, in town house model, because students, like 8 or 15 students would say, let’s get a house and they’d get a house and they‘d have the greatest parties and trash the Time Log houses [laughing] so I went to great parties here, even though I was a St Kate’s student. And [um] so I got to know the Seward neighborhood too, and around that time the Seward Co-op was coming, and I worked there, and then I actually had a boyfriend from Augsburg so there was a house right out [false start] it was called the Chi House, a lot of guys, all the guys, crazy guys lived there [laughing] and so they, they had like stolen the pictures from the, the pictures that are now in the [um] I think they’re in the Marshall Room, but we [stutter] all the Augsburg presidents in the frames, th-they stole like some of those and put them up in this room, they had this rubber couch up there, and it was just like, [BB laughing] insanity. Throwing garbage out the second story window into the dumpsters, I mean it was fun times around here, and then eventually each one of those houses was just in so much disre[stutter] disrepair, it couldn’t be fixed, and little by little they came down, but that was sad, yeah. It’s funny too, because there was a house called the Jane Addams house, which, she’s– BB: That sounds familiar. MT: Yeah, it was on the corner down over here [points out north-facing window to behind the house] and [um] Jane Addams, you know, is the President Pribbenow’s [um], the pers-you know, the focus of his dissertation, a lot of his work is on Jane Addams, it’s [uh] kind of ironic that that house existed and now it doesn’t. But, anyway. BB: That sounds like you had a lot of fun here. MT: I did. And I had a lot of fun in all the West Bank bars, too, because there was so much good music mainly, you know, it wasn’t the drinking, it was more the–and there was a little bar right here [um] if you go to Jimmy Johns and take a left going toward downtown, there was a little bar called Cullough’s, and there was a woman named Ma Cullough who owned it, and all the Augsburg students knew here, and she was like their mother, and they loved her. Ma Cullough, yeah. And it was– BB: Did you guys call her that? 7.04 MT: Yeah, they did! Everyone did! And, and people played pool and it was a three-two joint so [um], but people use to crawl home from Cullough’s, you know, it was so close to campus, but it had like old wainscoting, it was a really cool bar, and that was torn down probably in the mid-80s, maybe, yeah. And then Willie Murphy, the great [um] jazz and blues musician, you know, who started with Bonnie Raitt years ago, Time Log he-he was on her first album, he lived next door to Cullough’s, in this really entang-it had all this-it was like the woods, practically. Right next door. So, there were a lot of characters, you know, a lot of counter culture and West Bank hippies and, and still some-a lot of those, I mean some of those people exist but it was, yeah, so. BB: It seems like it’s definitely...not died down...a little bit from where– MT: Yeah BB: But, you know, it’s–maybe those people have gotten older and things have, like, simmered down? Or…and plus a lot of the... 8.02 MT: Yeah, you can still seem ‘em in Palmers and [um] [BB assents] mainly Palmers is the one you can still see– BB: Like the one haven that’s leftover? MT: The Nomad, but not as much. And then 400 closed, and the Viking was the best, though. BB: Yeah, that’s been closed for a while. MT: Uh-huh. Actually it was an Augsburg student who’s parents owned that, ‘cause I was doing a Aug-Sem tour one time, of the neighborhood, and I was talking about the Viking, and how I was there on the night it closed and everything, and one of the students piped up and she said “My parents own that bar,” and I knew her parents, too, from going to the Liquor Pigs there on Friday nights. BB: That sounds like fun, I wish I was alive at that point. MT: Yeah, I know! BB: And of age! MT: Yeah right, right BB: That would have been wonderful. MT: Yeah! BB: So, after you graduated in ‘81, [um] how did you kind of make the Time Log transition to getting involved in Augsburg’s [um] like their [um] service learning program? Or was that something that already existed ‘cause it sounded like it was with your Mexico trip. So how did you become involved in that? 9.08 MT: Well [um], actually when I, in the late 70s, early 80s the internship in cooperative education program existed, under the direction of Gary Hesser, [um] the great socialogist, who is also just retired [um], so when I left [um] St Catherine’s, ‘cause I was still a St Kates student even though I’d taken a lot of classes here, [um] I, in fact, I took a course with Don Gustafson, the historian here, and on India, it was an interim course and it was so great, so when I came back years later it was just funny to see him and talk with him again. And he just retired! But anyway, [um] so I left St Kates and I immediately went to the Minnesota Cuban Refugee Committee, in ‘81, and [um] that was in West St Paul, and it was at the time that Cuban refugees were coming, the-the Mar-they called them Marielitos in the Mariel boat lift in the early 80s, and [um] one of my professors was on the board, and he said “This would be a good job for you,” and so it was crazy because I was translating for [um] you know new Cuban arrivals in, like, [false start] Immigration, in the courts, people having babies. I didn’t-I didn’t have a car, I lived in uptown at the time, and I took the bus, it took an hour and a half to get to West St Paul. And then I worked in the basement of this, this church [um] and then I did that for several years. And then [um] I left, in ‘83 and went back to Massachusetts. And I, and I at the time didn’t think I was coming back to Minnesota, I thought I was going home. [Um] so I went back to Massachusetts and I stayed there for 6 years, and I got married, and I had a baby, and my husband, who’s now my ex-husband, decided to go, wanted to go to chiropractic school. And there were only about 10 schools in the country, one of them was here in Minnesota. And he was a midwesterner too, and he said, “Let’s go to Minnesota!” and I said “Great!” You know, and it seemed like it was a lifetime ago that I had been here in Minnesota, ‘cause it was, it was six years, but it seemed like it was forever, ‘cause I had a whole life in between. You know, and when you’re twenty, ah, three years old, it is part, you know, thirty, you know it’s like a huge part of your life. BB: It is. 11.32 MT: Yeah. So anyway, so we landed back here in 1989, and I saw this [uh], so my husband was in chiropractic school, I had a two and a half month old baby, and we had no money, of course. Still don’t, but anyway [laughing] [false start] We didn’t have, so, it was like, well, Mary you Time Log have to work, you know, because of course. So I was looking for a job and [um] I just happened to open the newspaper one day, I feel like it’s divine intervention, ‘cause I opened the newspaper, and it said Augsburg College, and I was like “I love Augsburg!” you know, I had such fond memories. I was living in way South Minneapolis [um] down by 49th and Bryant. And, yeah, because we had to be close to Bloomington, that’s where the chiropractic school was. So, it was January of 1990, and I saw this job, and it said, “coordinator of community service learning” and I said, what in the world is service learning? I’d never heard the term, it was a new term at that time, and [um] and it said, you know, the skills, it was, in the mean time, I forgot to say that I went to graduate school in Mas-in Conneticut. So when I was in Massachusetts I-I went and got an MSW [um] in community organizing when I came back and I had worked at U-Mass Medical School [uh] with medical [um] with residents trying to get them involved with the community. So, it really was service learning, I didn’t know the term then, but the idea was get [um] these future doctors to understand the homeless community, ‘cause that was around the time when [um] homelessness was becoming more and more prevalent because of, you know, federal laws about-and federal housing decisions. And so there are all these people in the streets and all these homeless shelters are being developed. And so U-Mass students [uh] that were medical residence, I was setting up [um] clinics in the shelters. And so, they were getting involved, so I was working part time for the medical school and part time for the shelters, kind of getting the, making this [uh] opportunity available for students. And so when I got here, and I saw this position, I didn’t know what service learning was, but I did know that, the kind of things they were asking for, I had done, you know. And I was excited about Augsburg I was excited that [um] you know that it was here in the West Bank and so I applied, and [um] I didn’t hear, I don’t think I-I don’t know if I got a rejection letter, but I didn’t hear, and so I thought, well, [sigh], I was sad, and then one night, at like 10:30 at night, Gary Hesser calls me up, and he says, “Hey can you come in for an interview tomorrow?” [BB laughing] And I said, “Sure! Yeah, I’d love to!” And so, [um] I-I came in the next day, and I guess what had happened is the person they had wanted to hire, had a PhD and you know, and she ended up going to the education department, she’s no longer here, but to be in the education department and then the position was open again. And so, like, people that were, like, Nancy Gibauld, the director of counseling and health promotion was on my hiring committee, Pastor Dave Wold, who just retired, was on the committee, [um] who else was, Gary of course was on that committee. There were two students that started the Link, the student community service organization, and that doesn’t exist anymore, [um] it hopefully Time Log will be revived again but, so, [um] so there’s a big huge team of people and they liked I think what they liked was they liked that I’d been at Ausgburg, you know, connected with Augsburg [BB assents] and-and anyone who goes through that CGE program is-is going to know a lot about justice issues and, and really be savvy about what Augsburg up to, so that and then, the MSW was important, I had done the community organizing and this position was a lot about community organizing. So anyway, that’s [um] I was hired and the rest is history as they say, yeah, so [um]...So that was January of 1990 and I’ve been here since then. So that’s–if I–that’s about 25 years. BB: January is when you got hired here? MT: Mm-hm, January 22nd, I think it was. BB: Could you describe community service learning a little bit– MT: Sure. BB: –in general what that looks like? MT: Mm-hm, sure, so… BB: That’s probably a very large term to kind of cover [laughing] 16.00 MT: It is! That’s true. No, it’s really, it is. So, in the mid 80s, I think I’m correct in saying this, the term came into being because people had done a lot of work, and especially Augsburg was already good at experiential education. So this idea of learning from experience, you know, of engaging, and then reflecting on [um] being engaged in the world. And so, you know, we had a pretty sophisticated system of, already, of co-op ed, which involves work related to what you’re interested in. That term isn’t used as much anymore, and then internships because of Gary and Lois Olson was a really important person too, she just retired, she was here for over 25 years [um] doing internships. And [um] so, the idea that you could integrate these mini-experiential components, or that–it wouldn’t have to be many–but in courses, in course-embedded service learning. So, the idea is that [um] my task was to work with faculty to figure out what they were teaching, and then help them do something related to that, that has to do with the community. And what I-what my task was to find out, first of all, figure out what was going on here at Augsburg already, there was a strong student movement, they were Time Log working a lot with, actually with Our Savior’s Shelter, and with [um] some other groups here in the neighborhood, and then figure out what was going on in the community, and kind-bring those two things together. And then bring them together through courses and faculty, not [um] [false start] students doing things outside of the classroom. And so, that was [um] my task, and because Gary was here and he was [false start] also really connected with the National Society for Experiential Education, which was the national organization that was really [um] knowledgeable about this field, and kind of cutting edge around the country, what people were doing, and Gary was connected with a lot of faculty and a lot of the gurus in the field. Very quickly we were able to jump on board with service learning nationally, and [um] we had some of the first conferences in Minnesota related to service learning, we had some really good faculty that started doing th–well Gary was one of them, and then Norm Ferguson in Psychology, Cass Dalglish in English, [um] let’s see who were some of the early pioneers… BB: Was it mostly people in the humanities that kind of started doing it? 18.30 MT: Mm-hm, and Social Work, uh-huh, but quickly we got other [false start]–Bob Stacke in music, we got a lot of good people involved, and [um], and then...so then I–but I was involved with student group the Link, I was involved with [um] the faculty, and then I kind of, being a community organizer, I got involved in all kinds of things related to the college, you know, and the community, ‘cause I really had to get engaged, and at that time, the Somali community wasn’t here, you know, w–the Somali community’s so prevalent–but it was really an immigrant neighborhood, but it was mainly [um] [false start]–the Vietnamese and East Asian community, and [um] of course the Native American community was here at the time, we were working with the Native American community, with the Latino community, and [um] worked always with the Brian Coyle Community Center, they’ve been our partner for actually over a hundred years… BB: Where is that community center located? 19.34 MT: It’s, it’s here in Cedar Riverside, and it’s [um] you go on Riverside and then it continues into 4th St, [um] which is [uh] where Mixed Blood is, and then you turn the corner, it’s right there, on the right hand side. And so, it actually at the time it wasn’t even–that building hadn’t been built, it was called the Currie Center, and it was part of Pillsbury United Communities, and Pill House was the first settlement house here in the Time Log Twin Cities, and that was here in Cedar Riverside, and so it was [um] it was–I don’t know when it was changed to Currie House, but it was changed to Brian Coyle and named after a [um] city councilor, who actually died of AIDS, and [um] was really well-loved by this community, and so they named that neighborhood center after him. And so, we were working with Our Savior’s Shelter, ‘cause it had-we had-it had the Lutheran connection, [um] and it’s located in Phillips on Chicago and 22nd, we were working [um] always with Trinity Congregation, because they’re right here on 20th and Riverside, and actually Trinity brought Augsburg College to Minneapolis, over a hundred and...twenty five maybe, thirty years ago? BB: Wow! MT: [Uh] Yeah, and so, we worked a lot with Trinity, and [um], I should look up the list of all the places we were, but we worked with pretty much anyone we-who wanted to work with us in the neighborhood, and slowly developed these deep long-lasting relationships. We started City Service Day, so we started working with neighborhood organizations around that, and [um], started the Halloween Safe Block, in the early 90s, and a lot of these things got started and still are part of what we do today. BB: So, [um] just even listening to how you even talk about Augsburg’s relationship to the community back then, it seems like it was pretty strong, would you say? Even before you started working here? 21.34 MT: It was...it was getting stronger, you know, when I was here in the late 70s, [um] there were a lot of, [um] you know, organizers because of the Riverside Plaza and the urban redevelopment, that idea, and a lot of counter culture hippies and people who were frustrated with the way things were going in this neighborhood, and that the city was, you know, [false start] kind of trying to take over, and redo things and tear a lot of housing down, and build–that, that Riverside Plaza was supposed to be five times the size it is right now. And so there were a lot of activists that were trying to make change, and they were really frustrated with Augsburg because of all of the dilapidated housing we owned. And because [um] we were taking [false starte] more–we kept taking more houses or buying them, and then taking over, and then students trashing them, and being really rowdy in the neighborhood and then saying we were a slum lord and stuff like that. So there was a lot of that going on. Time Log BB: Sounds like a lot of tension. 22.38 MT: Yeah, it was, it did feel like tension, but I’m sure, you know, Gary lived, always lived in Seward, and so he was working on a lot of good community things at the time. And so were other people. [Um] but it...I think it’s, as Gary–there’s a great chapter in a book [um] called Standing On the Shoulders of Giants that you could probably see if you want to–[um] that Gary wrote about Augsburg’s history of experiential education, which really started in the 60s [um]. I mean it...it...it really ramped up I should say in the 60s, but that started, most of that work is done on the North side of Minneapolis, and that’s really interesting history, in and of itself. But in this neighborhood, I would say, there were good internships and things going on, with internships and co-op ed, but [um] it started getting better, I would say, in the mid-80s and then after that I feel like it just keeps getting deeper and better, so. BB: Do you feel like [um] like the, er I mean, there’s one side which is the college’s view of the-the community around it, and then there’s the community’s view of the college. Do you feel like at this point there’s mutual positivity or [false start] is it, you know, is it well balanced? 24.03 MT: That’s a really good question, yeah. It depends on who you ask, you know, I think. Like, I mean some examples I could give of the ways that, you know, I really feel like we have this...I, I like to think of it as a, this really long standing, reciprocal [false start], you know, grassroots and committed way that we’re involved in the neighborhood. One example is just, you know last year when the [um], that building burnt down on January 1st, and three people died, and the mosque was damaged, Dar AlHijrah Mosque, which is one of the most important mosques in the neighborhood. BB: And that’s right next to Palmer’s, right? MT: Mm-hm. [Um] We rent the space in the basement of Trinity that was the old Saint Martin’s Table, and so the mosque has its offices there. We just said, we wanna share with you, ‘cause, you know, you’ve suffered this loss and you need space in the neighborhood. So, there’s that. There’s [um] we have the after-school [false start] tutoring program at Trinity, that is a majority of the students there are students along with the U students but [um] so kids in the neighborhood are tutored there everyday. The Midnimo project at the Cedar, which is this great project of bringing back Somali music from all around the world to-to people here in the neighborhood who live here. The work [um] going on at Coyle, we helped to start the Time Log Sisterhood of the Traveling Scarf, which is the new thrift store. BB: I saw that across the street. MT: Yeah, yeah, it’s great, yeah, so. BB: I haven’t been in there yet, I’ve been meaning to. 25.45 MT: Uh-huh, yeah, it’s fantastic. In fact, I have a car full of stuff for that right now [laughing] literally I can’t even practically see out the windows, ‘cause a friend of mine just unloaded a bunch of stuff. But, for instance, with that, just to give one example, you know, the MBA students wrote the business plan to get that building, I mean to get that business going. The [um] we have a full–we have an intern over there who’s a Great Lakes intern who started a thrift store in St Paul when she was 16, and she business management major, Stella Richardson, she’s over there working, we have an alum who’s [false start] the business manager for the Sisterhood now, [um] Yasmin Shadidi [unsure spelling], she’s fantastic. [False start] You know, I helped, and the president helped, to find that building and get that building for the Sisterhood, [um] from Faith in the City this tour we were doing and the President initiated this and a lot of the Lutheran leaders and it just so happened that the CEO of Fairview was on the tour. And I said, “I need a building for the Sisterhood,” ‘cause it was in the African Development Center down, down here, and it was tiny, and [um] and so a couple days later the CEO of Fairview called the President, President Pribbenow, and said “You can have that building”. BB: Nice! MT: Yeah, I know! So I mean it’s just all these ways that we..you know, and then Steve Peacock, who’s the Director of Community Relations here has done a lot of amazing work with the [um] like the West Bank Business Association, the West Bank Community Coalition, the President is the–President Pribbenow–is the chair of the [uh] Cedar Riverside Partnership. I mean, it’s just, we’re just, you know, like, in deep. And, and, I think because there are people that have been here for, you know, a quarter of a century, you know, like me, and Gary, who really, and other people, who, and we have the Campus Kitchen, too, that [um] the Campus Kitchen serves a meal at Coyle 4 days a week in the evenings. BB: Is that all volunteer based? Like, the way its run? 27.51 MT: Mm-hm, yeah, it’s all of our food in the cafeteria that doesn’t get Time Log eaten. BB: Wow! MT: Yeah, and Allyson Green, who’s office is right over here, is the director of that. And [um] so we serve at least twelve hundred meals a month, from food that would have gotten dumped from the cafeteria. BB:That’s really awesome. Like, not just, I mean on so many levels. Because, you know, you’re being resourceful, you’re not letting things go to waste, so you’re preventing food waste, you’re helping people that maybe would otherwise not have any food, and you’re building relationships with those people. 28.27 MT: Yeah. So we serve at Peace House over on Franklin near the Electric Fetus [um], we serve at Ebenezer Towers, which is [false start] for seniors and they didn’t have any congregate dining, they never had a meal together, all those, and you know, they’re isolated seniors, until Friday nights now, [um] a meal’s served every week, and our students are there [um]. So, [false start] that’s, I think, that’s been a great contribution, ‘cause also Alysson’s job [um] as the director of Campus Kitchen is to be in charge of this [false start] community garden. That was started [um] with 80 plots, and thats for the neighborhood, and there’s a lot of neighborhood gardeners, there’s not [false start] a lot of green space in this neighborhood, and so [um] we have that, and we have a gleaning project through the Campus Kitchen that [um] students save 38 thousand pounds of produce that would have gone from [um] Farmer’s Markets, gotten dumped, that they brought to food shelves and other places. So, yeah, no it’s incredible [um] this [false start]...I mean I’m just always amazed and I’m not surprised but I’m amazed at the work that gets done through this place, you know? The Health Commons. BB: [Um] my next question is gonna kind of examine how you would do something like this elsewhere, ‘cause specifically I’m thinking about your time at St Kates, and [um] what you think it be like to try and establish this kind of a system between a college and its community and whether you think that it is viable at another school. Like, you know, I look at St Kates and I’m like, it’s not as diverse of a community, so maybe there’s not as much of a need there but, for other schools, do you feel like you guys serve as a model [um], and do you think that, you know, setting up this kind of a relationship with your community is possible elsewhere? Time Log 30.27 MT: Mm-hm. Actually, I have to say, St Kates came on to the scene a lot later than we did. But they are doing amazing work with–under the direction of Martha Malinski [um]. They have...I think it’s interesting how different [false start] how similar in our approaches we are, I mean we’re doing similar kinds of things, but [um] they have a very sophisticated system, they’re [um] as far as how they work with partners and things like that, I would say. [Um] [false start] It’s less grassroots and it’s less neighborhood based, ‘cause that neighborhood, like you said, but they–each institution takes on this work in different ways. [Um] And I think St Kates is one of the best, I have to say. Yeah, so [um]...but, but [false start] you know, it is different, and they don’t, they’re not based in a neighborhood like we are and I think that has a lot to do with how we do our work, because also it’s such an immigrant neighborhood. You know, some schools are able to work with more [um] organizations that are very [um] established and have volunteer coordinators, and have all the, you know, everything in place. And in our neighborhood, we’re dealing much more with [um] building, or you know [uh], working with organizations to build their organization and don’t have all this, you know, capacity with all these fancy volunteer coordinators and places that have, you know. And so, we’re doing things much more directly, I think, like, I’d say [um] you know, like we’re on committees to organize [false start] Women’s Night Out at the Neighborhood Center, I’m on that committee, I mean and I’m not saying other people don’t do that, but I think it takes on the flavor of Augsburg, which is very informal and very grassroots and, and I love that about this place. And then other places are very sophisticated, and there are websites, and there, you know, how they do things, and that’s another way to do things that is good but– BB: It’s a different strength? 32.37 MT: Yeah, it’s a different strength, and-and so–but I do think we have–what we have to offer is a, also, is a whole institution that gets around this. Some people have offices that do that, you know specific offices that that’s their job. Because of the-because of President Pribennow’s interests and because of his attention to community [false start] we do it at all levels, I would say, you know what I mean, every–and we have–someone did a report, actually Doctor Andy Furco over at the U who’s a guru in this field, he had his graduate students do this whole huge project on analyzing different offices of community engagement around [false start] the Twin Cities, and the students came up with, in the end, Augsburg lets a thousand flowers bloom, that whole idea, it’s like we’re all over the place, we have a million different things going on, and sometimes that’s good and sometimes it isn’t, Time Log but you, I think, because we allow–like for instance, first we brought the Urban Debate League here, we brought the Center for Democracy and Citizenship here, that does this, you know [false start] related but other work, we brought, well, the Center for Global Ed. We have so many different layers, and it’s the continuum and also the breadth and the depth of this work is what’s I think really powerful. So [false start] from the time students get here, to do SOAR, they’re grouped by neighborhoods, you know? And so they get to know a neighborhood in the city, and that’s how their [false start] their group is [um] the identity of that group is a neighborhood. Then they do City Service Day, the first day they get here, you know, and they’re involved with the city and we say, this is how we, you know, this is how we do education, as engaged with our city and our neighborhood. Then they hopefully do Engaging Minneapolis, as part of their Aug-Sem, and and they do [false start] hopefully a service-learning course [um], you know, if a faculty member chooses. That’s part of, for me, that’s one of the issues is that faculty and departments are able to choose whether they’re going to have a service learning course or not, and I’m not saying it should be mandatory, but I’m saying we should have more courses with service learning components. And how to get that done is the question. But [um] then students can, you know, do a really [false start] an internship, a lot of times a paid internship a lot of times, which is not that easy to find in a lot of places. They can do the Bonner Program, and get involved in the community, and get paid their work study dollars off-campus. Hopefully, they take advantage of HECUA, the Higher Education Consortium for Urban Affairs, which actually started at Augsburg was one of the founding colleges, really important [uh] experiential program based here in the Twin Cities, but it’s all over the world. And then if they go through Center for Global Ed, then they really got the whole deal, you know what I mean? And I think one of the things we need to do more of is help students understand the continuum, and that all these things are available, they’re all available, but a lot of times, they don’t see them–and it’s hard to tell a student, “Kay, these are all the kinds of experiences you can have.” But I think it adds up to this–and then there’s the Augsburg Experience and the Engaging Minneapolis part of the curriculum. And those happen in a variety of different ways. But anyway, I think, I call it the Augsburg Advantage because I see, you know, if you come in here as a first year student, and you’re awake to all the possibilities, and you’re...and you take them, it’s just this incredible [um] experiential-plus-goodacademic-rigor and the combination is just like...and also being in such a diverse community as a student, not only on campus but off campus right here. [Um] So, and that’s why I stay here, ‘cause I love this place, Time Log and I see each year us getting more engaged, and you know, I think it’s the coll–really,I think it’s the college of the 21st century, because of the focus on diversity, the focus on experiential, the focus on, [um] you know, working with students of color, [um] and really having to change because of [false start] how society is changing, like being forced to in many different ways. And it’s not easy, and we’re learning. I’m not saying it’s perfect, I’m saying we’re in the thick of it. But I think a lot of colleges are going to have to get to this point, at some point. BB: You can’t be in a bubble anymore. MT: Right. BB: You have to actually engage with their communities on some level. MT: And you can go to–away to a place like St Olaf or Gustavus and be in your little world and probably learn a lot but I don’t think you’re probably ready for 21st [laughing] for the diversity of the world and what it’s going to ask of you if you live in–especially if you live in an urban environment. And most people will end up in urban places, so. BB: So what do you think are some of the difficulties that you’ve encountered in you’re 25 years here? 38.01 MT: Yeah, [um] I would say [false start] the biggest difficulty, and continues to be, is, and I had this discussion with Tim–Professor Tim Pippert in sociology this week, and I said, “Tim, what can I do,” and I’m continuously trying to figure this out, “what can I do to get faculty more engaged in this work?” And students, but mostly faculty. He said, “Mary, what they need, you can’t give them,” and I said, “Wow, what’s that?” “Time.” Time! They don’t have time to…[false start] and this takes a lot of time, even with my support, [false start] and it’s a different way of teaching, so, you know, we were, most of us, were taught in a manner where the teacher stands up at the front of the room and you know imparts some wisdom, right? BB: Stand and deliver. MT: Yeah, yeah, right exactly. And, so once the students are engaged in the community, they’re learning from a different place, you know, and it is an adjustment, but our faculty are very open to, I think, new Time Log methods of teaching, and so forth. But it’s more about...they don’t [um] it takes time to figure these things out, it takes time to integrate into your course, [um] they’re on a million different committees, they’re learning to teach to different populations that they didn’t, you know, there’s a whole myriad of [um] learning styles and students whose first language wasn’t English growing up, all kinds of things that make it harder to teach, I think. And they’re asked [false start] their asked to do a lot outside the classroom. And so they’re also learning how to do hybrid courses, which is whole new…yeah, so that’s the hardest thing is that–students have the same issue. Students are working 20, 40 hours a week to be able to go to college. They have, so they have jobs, they have [um] lives, you know, outside–it used to be, I think, at least when I was in school, I didn’t do much besides go to school and then you know go home– BB: Go home and study. MT: –or party and hang out, you know? Like, it was like this whole kind of experience of, it’s a [false start] four years of separation, from the real world. That’s not true anymore. And [um] sometimes you think, oh yeah right, they say “I’m busy,” you know? And then they say, “Well, let’s get together,” and the open, students open their calendar, and I’ll say, I’ll look through, you know, I mean they’ll just say “Well, I have this, and then I have this,” and a lot of our students are also either in music, which takes up three, four days a week, or their in sports. A lot of–we have a lot of athletes, you know, and that takes up every day of the week, especially in season. And those seasons last three or four months. So, they have internships, they have...I mean, it’s...well, you know ‘cause you’re a student, but it’s like, this is amazing! So, that’s why I think the course-embedded is so important. And it’s hard on students in some ways, because then they, you know, they have to fit it in, but it’s in lieu of something else. And I always tell the faculty, you can’t just plop this extra component on, it has to be in lieu of some other huge project, that students are involved in the community. But… BB: ‘Cause you don’t want to add more to what they’re already expected to do. 41.23 MT: Right, right, but you wanna add something that’s what would say that that component is life-giving, it’s [um] it’s...it enlivens the material, the classroom, it gets students out into the community, understanding what’s going on in the world–a lot of our students Time Log know, I mean are already part of the community. Like, I’m sure your life is like that. But some people’s lives, you know, and plus, if you’re going to study education, well, be involved with education. If you’re going to social work, if you’re going to study business, get involved with the non-profit world around us. We have some of the most interesting entrepreneurial businesses anywhere in Minnesota right here in the neighborhood, you know. If you’re gonna be involved with science, get–So, that’s what [um]...that’s why I think it’s important to do and so do a lot of other people, make learning relevant. [BB assents] Right? And plus the way the world is and the way [uh] and how much our communities need us to understand what’s going on, we can’t afford just to sit in classrooms all the…[laughing] I don’t think! You know what I mean, just to sit around. And, okay, so, anyway, this project that you’re doing is experiential. Like, you could talk about in class how to do this. It would be very different than actually what we’re doing in this very moment, you know, so. It doesn’t always have to be, I would say, it’s not always about service, although this is a service to the college, and maybe to someone in the future, too, so. BB: I would say so. And you have, I feel like, you have a lot to offer to people who want to learn about this, so. MT: Good. BB: [Um] My last question [um] it’s kind of twofold: [um] what do you see in the future for Augsburg and this community, and where do you see yourself in five to ten years? 43.09 MT: Oh, good question. Well, I see Augsburg being more and more [um] part of the community, I mean as far as that we can’t exist without this community and this community can’t exist without us. You know, that we’re just [false start] inextricable, that’s the right word! And that [um] we find…my hope and my dream is that we find more and more ways to engage with each other. Not in the idea that we have something...that we have something to give each other, that it’s not about, you know, like, we have all the knowledge here, and we’re gonna tell you or help you. It’s more about, how are we going to be together. Like, this [false start] Midnimo project at the Cedar Culture Center is a good example. [Um] I don’t know if you’ve encountered it much, but the Cedar got this grant to bring Somali music to the neighborhood because [false start] after the Civil War in Time Log ‘91 the musicians scattered all over the world, they didn’t have their instruments, the bands broke up, [um] you know, and here in Minnesota we’ve only had, you know, at weddings and things, some Somali music where people are listening to tapes or lip synching or doing. And so the idea was get these musicians from all over the world. And so the Cedar’s done that, and they needed a higher ed partner in order to make it happen. And they also needed to do residencies with musicians in classrooms. And so, also Bob Stacke, from the musc–the jazz band director for years, who just retired– BB: Oh, he just retired? MT: Yeah! Developed a band that understood the music and now is the backup band for all these people coming that don’t have any bands. They can–they have wonderful singers and maybe some drummers and musicians but, so there’s this put together and transcribed all the music [um] from tapes, you know, ‘cause there’s no music, written music. BB: That sounds very difficult! MT: I know! [false starts] It’s going–some of our alums are doing it too. It’s just amazing, and so, now we’ve contributed a ton back with the community, and the students have learned about Somali music. So, [um] so and as far as my own future, [um] in ten years hopefully I’ll be retired [laughing]. No, I won’t be retired, but I’ll be redirected, I’ll say no, redirected into, you know, and in the mean time, I’m not, I’m not sure. Each year, I think, is this what I want to be doing, you know? And it is, you know. I make this conscious decision, I don’t think, oh I should just hang out here. You know, I say, am I valuable here? Am I useful? And is this [false start] you know, is this good for my life? And so far, that’s what...what [um]–and having this new Sisterhood of the Traveling–’cause I’m a thrift fanatic, this has been a great addition to my life. And I think college, life of the college and students, and also the Cedar is [false start] I think my favorite cultural organization in the Twin Cities. And so those two things have really revved it up for me this year and last year. But [um] there’s always something coming along– BB: Yeah it sounds like it. 46.26 MT: –Yeah, my next project for the summer is working with [um] the business department with Professor Marc McIntosh on [um] figuring Time Log out how business can get more involved with the [um] local [uh] businesses and doing financial management and stuff with people near. So, always a new project. BB: That sounds, like, really exciting, like everything’s always moving forward, everything’s always growing. And it’s always for the most part good. 46.54 MT: Yeah, and consistent. And I have to say that I think, you know, Paul Pribbenow’s been a huge gift to this community and to this college, in his vision of where we’re going. and what we’re up to. [Um] And when I really think about all the different steps we’ve taken, it’s like he’s had a hand in almost every one of them. And, so, anyway, I [um]...so I love this place, it’s been, you know, one of the greatest joys of my entire life, is to have been here and to still be here and to be able to be a part of this, because I think this place is on fire in the best ways possible! BB: Well, thank you for your time Mary, [um] thank you for allowing me to conduct this interview, and hopefully we will hear a lot more from you! MT: Okay, great! Thank you!
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Reverend Dave Wold, 2015
Collection: HIS 300 Oral History Project
Search Result: Interview with Dave Wold Interviewed on March 7, 2015 Augsburg College Oral History Project Interviewed by Janet Meyer Dave Wold- DW Janet Meyer JM Time Log 00.01 JM: This is Janet Meyer of the Augsburg College Oral History Project. I'm here to interview Dave Wold about his experiences as ...
Show more Interview with Dave Wold Interviewed on March 7, 2015 Augsburg College Oral History Project Interviewed by Janet Meyer Dave Wold- DW Janet Meyer JM Time Log 00.01 JM: This is Janet Meyer of the Augsburg College Oral History Project. I'm here to interview Dave Wold about his experiences as Campus Pastor at Augsburg College. We're at Pastor Dave's home in Arden hills, MN. Today is March 7, 2015. Thank you for participating in this. Would you please start by giving us information about your background and education? 00.35 DW: I was a preacher's kid so I lived in five different towns growing up. Born in Wadena, MN. Lived there just briefly because my dad had just taken a call and moved to Stephen's Point, WI. Had my pre-school years there and then to Red Wing MN where I did elementary school and then Fort Worth, TX where I did junior high and part of high school and then finished high school in St. PauL Went on to St. Olaf College and from there to Luther Seminary. I served with my father for a few years. We said it was the father and son looking for the Holy Ghost! And that was a wonderful experience and then to a very large church in Golden Valley. I was actually always thinking I might go to medical school so I was actually filling out what I needed in terms of medical courses or pre-med courses at the U but then this opportunity came up. A rare opportunity as they said to head the largest Lutheran youth program in the country and that was at a church in Golden Valley. And then I was thinking again about maybe medical school or graduate school and then another rare opportunity came up and that was to head our denomination's youth program, and I did that for a few years but I was traveling 200 days a year at least, and rd sometimes be well, at least in the summer 7, 8 or 9 weeks in East Germany, wasn't even able to communicate with my family. One night one of my daughters who was about 2 at the time, said to my wife "Is Daddy coming over tonight?" and I knew, wow, that's kind of a wake-up call. And just about that time our denomination which was the American Lutheran Church had voted to merge with another denomination that's called Lutheran Church of America as well as the smaller group, Association of Evangelical Lutheran Churches (AELC) I think that was the name, which was a break off from the Missouri Synod, and they were going to form the larger church which is now ELCA so I knew this a time maybe to look at something else and somebody just at that time said "I noticed there was an opening at Augsburg College for a college pastor. Can I nominate you?" and I said "yes, you can nominate me." So I was nominated and as happens with more positions at a college you have hundreds of people apply and so I didn't take it as seriously as I maybe could have at the time but I went through the interviews. It was extensive interviews, maybe half dozen committees I think 1 for a couple, three days and one thing led to the next and pretty soon I was called to be college pastor at Augsburg. 04.02 JM: Great. 04.03 DW: And that was wonderful because I was able to be with my family every night at least, even though the hours were long and there was always work to be done but I was in town and that was a real blessing. So that's kind of my vocational journey, and then I ended up being there 30 years. 04.36 JM: Great. So what attracted you to the position? 04.40 DW: Well, I had ... I was thinking that I was going to go on to medical school or some form of graduate school but I think probably because of the change in what was going on with the denomination, the merger that was sort of what you call a kairos time to think about something else because I knew I liked the Twin Cities, and the office was going to be in Chicago and so I would have probably had to move if I would have continued in that position, but also just because it's an educational institution it was, you know, very exciting to think about being in a setting like that. I think most people have thought of their college years as some of the best years of their life. Why not work in a college if your best years are college years, why not make that a vocation? Plus the fact that it was started for very a particular specific reason by Norwegian Lutherans. 06.03 JM: The college? 06.04 DW: The college. To educate holistically, to have the intellectual, the physical and the spiritual all in balance, and that's the genius of a Christian liberal arts college I think. I went to one of them, St. Olaf, and my wife went to Concordia. We've had a lot of family members, pretty much every family member has gone to one of those kind of schools, so it's been part of our DNA I guess. In fact my great, great grandfather was one of the founders of St. Olaf college so it's really part of our DNA. And a lot of family members that have taught or worked at different Lutheran colleges. 07.00 JM: Okay. So let's talk a little about the changes that you saw occur to Augsburg over the 30 years from 1983 to 2013 07 .10 DW: I should just double check. Do you think it's loud enough? Do you need to check? JM: 07.19 DW: It looks fine. Thank you. I'll move a little closer just in case. 07 .25 JM: It looks fine. So what was Augsburg like in 1983 versus now? Any systemic changes, cultural changes ... 2 7 .36 DW: Yeah, I could even back up even further because when I was in high school, Augsburg was pretty basic. In fact one of the famous stories was of Bernhard Christensen. That he, as you know, is legendary in terms of his spirituality but also his commitment to a city, so Augsburg has always had a commitment to the city. Except maybe the first years when they came, and they were considered farm land because the center of the city was really at St. Anthony Falls and this was on the outskirts of town when you didn't have to make a commitment to a city. Bernhard Christensen was dating his wife, I don't know the exact details but maybe she was being brought in for an interview or, She used to tell the story. Anyway they went on a ride. She wanted to see Augsburg College and it was a long, long ride, and she said, "Well, are we ever going to get to Augsburg?" and he said, "Oh, well we went by it half an hour ago but I didn't really want to point it out because it's such a humble place." [Dave laughs] Augsburg has never pretended to blow people away with its facilities. It has adequate facilities but in a small campus like that you can't show yourself off much. So in high school they had just a tremendous basketball team and in those days the Minneapolis Lakers had already moved to Los Angeles. There was no professional hockey, so it was the front page of every sports section because of the tremendous basketball team and you'd have to get to the gym a couple hours early sometimes just to get a seat. and we would come as a team as many basketball players would do, and in those days basketball was kind of king. and it was just the rocking place. They had a big master plan down in the basement of Melby Hall. Melby Hall had just been built and it was exciting to see the student center, now Christensen Center, the two tower dorms were going to be built and all those things. Because at that time it was only Old Main, the science hall which still is the science hall, the library just is around that other 'L' part and then the Memorial Hall which was a dormitory at that time. Then I think across the street actually from the gym, Melby Hall, was another dormitory. It also might have been used by some of the nursing students that were from St. Olaf that got part of their training at Fairview. But in between were just a lot of houses and of course Murphy Square which is still there. So it was not a real impressive place. When I came in '83 of course Christensen Center existed, the tower dorms existed. The music hall had just been built. In fact our denomination had some fingers in part of the building there. I don't know exactly what the arrangement was but that they would use the Sateren auditorium for some things so we came over and used that for showing of films and things like that. And then the old building, which is now tom down, was supposed to be very temporary. It was just a cinder block building which was first a student center then became the art building and then it was a bunch of offices. Very energy inefficient they discovered, so they tore it down. Now it's just a parking lot right next to the music building, between the music building and Melby Hall. So there were not all that many buildings. Charles Anderson was president at that time, but in 1983 it was pretty lean, a pretty lean time for Augsburg. The numbers, the admission numbers were down significantly in '82 and '83 and they had to look for alternative ways to raise revenue. Because you know Augsburg has never had a large endowment, you're "tuition driven" so the idea of weekend college came up and that's when they started weekend college with a guy named Rick Thoni who is what I call Augsburg's magician. He was able to create a very large number of attending weekend college. I think at one time it was 1,500 maybe. 3 13 :30 JM: That's a lot. 13 .34 DW: Yeah. Then when he became vice-president of enrollment management he developed some other programs, scholarship programs especially brought in some, a wonderful new batch of students and then when he went to Rochester to start the Rochester program again he created magic so at least three times in Augsburg's career, Rick Thoni has kind of been the savior of Augsburg college, and I just have the most admiration of him of all people. He's just a wonderful hard working guy. So weekend college was cranking up, the numbers were starting to come back again. Right at that time, just about the time I started, just a little bit before, a fellow by the name of Julian Foss, who had gone to Augsburg Academy, not Augsburg College but Augsburg Academy which was a high school, came on campus along with Sig Hjelmeland in the Development Office and he said where's the chapel? And they said we really don't have a chapel. There had been a chapel space which is now the art studio in Old Main. That was the chapel for the old Augsburg College and Augsburg Academy probably. Julian Foss had been successful in investing in particularly in Nike shoes. He said, "Well I'm willing to give quite a significant amount of money to have you build a center which would be a worship center, a theater as a part of it and a communication center as part of it." He wanted all three in one and that was the beginning of the thinking of what's now Foss Center and so right after I started, we formed a committee and they asked if I would be on it. Of course I would as chaplain. The chair of the committee was the dean at the time, Richard Green. Richard Green took another position almost immediately so that meant the president came to me and asked if I would chair the committee. It was a great honor but also a little bit sensitive because I was representing one of the three interests that were going into the building. But it was something I did accept, and we had a hard working committee for five years to put that building together. We would have very early meetings. I think sometimes as early at 6:30 but often at 7:00 every Tuesday. The first part was just developing a charter so that it would talk about the usage of the building and primary to that, so we had representatives from the faculty out of different departments, representing theater, communications, religion and then other disciplines as well. And the charter essentially ended up saying that this building is primarily for Augsburg students. That is a wonderful statement and a commitment to who we're about and we made some strong statements about our Christian liberal arts heritage and continuation of that. I think over the years that's kind of been lost because anytime that you can see this as an opportunity to raise revenue, rent the space and things, you can kind of forget about those things. The biggest problem became putting the three spaces together because for worship purposes you want spaciousness and light, for theater purposes you want smallness, intimacy and darkness. So for a couple of years really we were trying to do things together. Well I should even back up. I thought a model of this would be at two places because as all of the architects made their proposals as to who we should select, I studied carefully the buildings that each had done. I liked a couple of spaces that Sovik, Mathre, Sathrum, Quanbeck and Schlink from Northfield had done on 2 sister college campuses, one St. Olaf and one Concordia. Concordia had the Centrum, a gathering place. The chapel was primary to it but they had other things there, banquets, etc. It was a part of the college center there. I think dances and other things like that. They had a nice balcony wrap-around there. And at St. Olaf they had a 4 similar space called the Urness Recital Hall and that was a part of the music building where recitals were held as well as small concerts. We would visit different sites that the architects were proud of. We were invited down to St. Olaf and we had lunch there and then in the afternoon had our meetings in that Urness Recital Hall and after the afternoon meeting we said this is what will work for us. So we chose Sovik, Mathre, Sathrum, Quanbeck and Schlink, and Terry Schlink became our architect and he was an Augsburg grad. 19.43 JM: Oh, that's good. 19.47 DW: Actually the Quanbeck in that firm was also an Augsburg grad, Robert Quanbeck. He was the brother of Phil Quanbeck, Sr. who was a very Augsburg distinguished Augsburg faculty member. Now his son, Phil Quanbeck II is on the faculty in religion. So there's a strong Augsburg connection to that firm, and it was really fun working with them. But I think it was two years into the planning when we said, you know it's just not going to work to combine these because worship needs more space and more light; theater needs more intimacy; and communication changes by the day so this was going to be hard to have a communications center there. So we separated the spaces by expanding the practice theater and making it a big black box. We figured if you needed proscenium ... we had all kinds of reasons for that because we would have had a hydraulic stage what would go up for thrust stage and do down for orchestra pit and proscenium. We had all kinds of things that would have worked but then we talked to ... like people from Luther who said well we have a hydraulic stage like that too but whenever the air conditioning is on it doesn't work--it freezes. So there are reasons why we were a little hesitant in going that route. It would have been a beautiful concept, but then how were our theater students going to get the experience on a proscenium stage? Well there were 7 theaters within walking distance of Augsburg College. They could choose any one of them for those types of theater experiences and that's once again the advantage of being in the Twin Cities. And of course Minneapolis is second only to, or the Twin Cities, is second only to New York for theater seats. There were lots of opportunities, and then Communications has their own wing, the TV studio and things like that so that. And the big question was, would the donor go for that? and that was the job of Charles Anderson and he handled it beautifully. And when the day of the dedication came Julian Foss could not have been more pleased with what turned out so I think it was a beautiful building. There were lots of bridges to cross like would we put a basement in or would it just be ground floor like the music building. Would be go tile? or put carpet in? Well, we spend a dollar and a dollar, because we knew that a college building gets a lot of use, and it might have to last a couple hundred years. And it's proven to be a very, very welcoming building and worked really nicely and people love it. Hillary Clinton has been there twice for various reasons in that space. She really loves that space. She has used that for a hearing once when her husband was elected president and she was in charge of looking at changes to the medical plans. 23 .25 JM: The health care? 5 23 .26 DW: Yeah, the health care and so she used Augsburg as a Twin Cities spot for that. We've had senate debates and governor debates. Lots of nice opportunities, great concerts, of course Chapel every day. That might be a good segue. Let's talk about campus ministries and chapel. 23.42 JM: However you'd like to describe ... what's the role of campus ministries? 24.00 DW: Yeah well it is a good segue because there was no chapel building so chapel met three days a week and it was in the gymnasium, Melby Hall. One third of that could be sectioned off, you could pull a curtain, pull an altar out and they could pull out the bleaches, or it could be at Sateren auditorium, or the cafeteria. We used the cafeteria eventually most of the time because it was right in the center of campus, and that was all before we moved into the new building. But we were only meeting 3 days a week. I think Augsburg College is probably the only college in the country that actually added chapels, chapel services. So we went to 5 days a week and that was by unanimous vote of the faculty back in 1988. Probably 1987, a year before we moved in '88. and that's sort of unheard of because even some of our sisters colleges, Lutheran colleges even took like a day away so they might have 4 day chapel or 3 day chapel, but we went from 3 to 5 which I think is quite remarkable. Obviously Augsburg, given it's profile, it's demographics, there's a lot of commuters so a lot of people just kind of come in and go out according to their class because they also have jobs to go to so it's not a residential community as such. We could back up again and say since '83 they've built a number of new residence halls so you have Anderson Hall, you have what's now Luther Hall, they used to call it new hall. They should have said instead of N-E-W, they should have used G-N-U then they could have celebrated some of the animals that run around Africa. (Laughs) and then of course over at Oren Gateway there's residential space. So that was in an effort, again kind of a Rick Thoni idea to bring more students to create a campus community. But one ofmy thoughts was okay, if we're not going have a community every day at 10:20, or 11 :20 on Tues and Thurs in those days, we need to create communities elsewhere so I, we, put a lot of effort into our presence in other places. I would like to, I tried to eat at the cafeteria almost every day, and I got to know people that way and hear their needs and become a part of various communities that way. We got invited to a lot of communities. But particularly in the athletic community we became important. One of the big changes -- there was no football field, no athletic field when I came but again Jeroy Carlson and some of his friends (Jeroy is who we call Mr. Augsburg) and he was once I think in charge of alumni then he became a fundraiser and he's the guy that raised most of the money for a lot of the projects there like the Lindell Library, the athletic field and things like that. They figured that they could by tearing a couple of houses down and refiguring a couple of things, they could get an athletic field and they did. So they were playing their football games, and I think maybe soccer too, at Parade Stadium downtown. so we suddenly had a football field and they needed an announcer so they asked if I'd be the announcer so I was and I still am actually the announcer for football, basketball and wrestling. And I would meet with the team before the home games and we'd have a devotional time and that goes on to this day with a guy named Mike Magson who now is part time at Augsburg as the chaplain to athletes and also is working as a strength coach and he's a pastor across the freeway now at Bethany 6 Lutheran Church. So we had many opportunities to meet with the athletic teams on their turf. A lot of them came to chapel on the days of their games or the day before their games too, so there's a real symbiotic relationship with athletics and that was again in the concept of--okay, if not everybody has the opportunity to come to chapel every day, we can create chapels for them around the campus. So that is a long way of saying how Augsburg is probably unique in their campus ministry than a lot of other colleges. 29.43 JM: Okay, that's a great point. 29.50 DW: I sometimes judge things by how many references I'm asked to write per year and how many weddings I'm asked to do, and you know I could easily do 400 to 500 references a year for students that were going on to graduate school or summer jobs and things like that and weddings -- you know one time I just counted how many I could have done in one summer and I think it was 4 7 or 48 in just one summer and so you know it was as a result of entry into the worlds of students that might not automatically wind their way over to the chapel. 30.38 JM: So you took chapel to them. 30.40 DW: Basically, yeah, I kind of ... food truck, chapel truck. [Dave smiles] 30.49 JM: One more question before we leave the ministry topic. How does a Lutheran college find ways to be inclusive of all religious beliefs? 31.03 DW: Yeah well I think there's different slants to Lutheranism and especially as you look at the different countries that have been representing Lutheranism. You know you look at Northern Europe in particular -- I'll try to not draw this out, because I could talk about this for hours because a lot of Lutherans have not been very receptive to everybody. Because in Norway there's so many valleys, some people have gotten so used to living in their own valley and using their own dialect and things like that, that they didn't see any need to be inclusive, but Lutheran theology really is based on grace and openness and acceptance. God's unearned love and favor is the definition of grace. I think I look at Luther's explanation to the third article which is the explanation to the third part of the creed which is about the Holy Spirit and it goes like this: "I believe I cannot by my own understanding or effort believe in Jesus Christ my Lord or come to him but the Holy Spirit calls me through the gospel, enlightens me with gifts, sanctifies and keeps me in true faith. In the same way he calls, gathers, enlightens and sanctifies the whole Christian church on earth and keeps it united with Jesus Christ in the one true faith." and then it goes on a little bit more. But basically I think the way we as Lutherans operate is we say we cannot coerce people through formulas, religious formulas or whatever but if we allow people to have the gospel in their hands, the gospel calls us, so called through the gospel. Dietrich Bonhoeffer was one of the more amazing Lutherans of course he was killed standing up to Hitler --- martyred and he chose to go back to, you know the whole story, to Germany after having kind of a nice position in New York. In his Letters and Papers from Prison there's a point towards the end that said maybe 7 sometimes I tried to push the gospel on people or to coerce people but the gospel can stand on it's own and I think that's the approach that Lutherans, okay we can be very open, we respect people where they stand, but we also allow because of being a confessional church, we gather around the confessions, things we agree on and that things we don't agree on you know the gospel can inform us all. We're all in a kind growth pattern in our faith so I think Augsburg has been by and large been pretty good at being accepting and non-judgmental of the way you do your religion, your faith, your spirituality. I don't know if that answered the question. 34.42 JM: I think it did. What, if any, influence does the location of Augsburg in the CedarRiverside neighborhood impact what you just said about the mix of cultures or ethnicities? 35.04 DW: Yeah, being a kid that went to a inner city high school in St. Paul, I guess I've thought of Augsburg as being a part of an even broader community and certainly the Cedar-Riverside communities are important but you look at the Philips. We built a home in the Philips with Habitat for Humanity one year in conjunction with some agencies and churches there and that's a very large native American community. I've heard probably the largest collection of Native Americans in even the Midwest even more so than some reservations. But then you go to St. Paul and you have the Hmong population, which is second largest only to California; the Liberians, largest population or concentration in the country, so the profile of the Twin Cities since 1983 has changed from I think less than 5% of the population, I think significantly less than 5%, to I think I heard the other day to 17 or 18% maybe even 19% of the population. That has been primarily of course in the Twin Cities. So yes Cedar-Riverside is one part of it but it goes far beyond that. And the students have done remarkable things with finding their ways into the various communities with Cedar-Riverside being primary, with Seward also. We used to have something called Ministries on the Mississippi and it was the churches of CedarRiverside, Seward and over on the university campus. So we would have University of Minnesota Campus Ministries, Lutheran Campus Ministries, the Lutheran chaplains from University hospitals, University Church of Hope, Grace Church on the university campus, we had Bethany, we had Augsburg and we had Trinity that worships at Augsburg and a couple other entities also so that brought 3 basic communities together. We did some projects and things like that together for quite a few years. 37.58 JM: What kinds of projects? 37.59 DW: It was probably more things about ... well we did Lenten worships, you know the worshipping type things together, but we did kind of social things, trips down the river and things like that, kind of celebrating the river. I think maybe there were some Habitat things going on. Some youth, you know combined youth activities and it's been a while since. 38.45 JM: That's okay. 8 38:47 DW: Addressing some young adult issues as young adults would come to the Twin Cities. We had a young adult transition center. I actually created that where we had a couple, three houses on our campus and young adults who would come to the Twin Cities could live there for a short period of time as they were being transitioned in the Cities, and then we would once a week have activities for them at night. One of the unique things about Augsburg is that we are flexible to try so many things. And sometimes things work and sometimes things don't. There were environmental things along the river there. Lots of different . . . some food programs. I remember Thanksgiving dinners for the community. That was at Bethany. Between housing and food and environmental things, there were lots of things going on. 40.11 JM: So the young adult transition center ... they were not students? 40.16 DW: No, not students. 40.18 JM: They were just neighborhood .. . 40.20 DW: Yeah, people coming in from ... Winner, SD would have a chance to have a place to live for two or three months. 40.30 JM: Until they got their feet on the ground. That's very nice. So you were involved in the Urban Basketball. Would that fit in with what you were describing? 40.46 DW: Yeah that would be another thing. 40.52 JM: It was a tournament? Do you want to describe it? 40.54 DW: We started ... one of the things I did, I gathered youth professionals, I called them professionals because they could be pastors or youth directors, once a month for what we called the youth ministry round table. And that was right away when I started. There's also a guy named Jim Grubs who had a youth background. He was with Young Life organization and I had been more focused on the churches. So we brought in people that might help illumine the people who were in youth ministries in their job. And out of that I saw all of these church gyms. Back in the '80's I counted, of just our denomination, I think there were about ... oh I'd better not even say the number but I think 30 some church gyms and a lot of them were not being used on Sunday afternoons. So we gathered these youth professionals, a lot of them had been a part of our round table, and said let's see what we can do to start a league because so many young people have learned to love basketball. For instance in the particular area where I lived there's a thousand kids playing in the basketball association but by the time we get to high school we only have a handful, so what about all those others that have learned to love basketball? Maybe we could do some things in the church. So that was, you know, we had a thousand kids playing. 9 42.32 JM: That's amazing. 42.35 DW: Sunday afternoons for January and February and then we'd have the big tournament in March at Augsburg. So it was always a big fiesta. It was a great, great, yeah I think it's scaled back a bit now but I think its still going. 42.53 JM: Do you think that increased Augsburg's visibility among those ... ? 42.57 DW: Yeah, it was a great relationship, great thing for the community because they were primarily city churches. There was a nice mix of suburban and city because some of the suburban churches had beautiful gyms. It was a nice mixture. Not without problems. Anytime you're in competition, lots of funny things can happen. 43.19 JM: Like what? 43 .22 DW: Well you know people think that winning is the most important thing. So we had a whole different set of rules. We had equal playing time so everyone had to get equal playing time. We started with devotions, ended with devotions and prayer. We had service projects that were highly emphasized. We tried to build them in to every team concept. But occasionally people took the game a little too seriously, so we kept addressing that, but a lot of ... there's a lot of benefits for the students. You know, we would ... when the tournament went on we would have 100 some Augsburg students running it and a lot of them were involved during the season too as gym managers and coaches and refs and things like that. 44 .21 JM: It sounds like a big deal. 44.23 DW: It was tremendous thing. A lot of those kids came to Augsburg because they were introduced to Augsburg. 44.36 JM: That's what I was thinking. Well good, that sounds like a very good program. So now focusing on you and your career there. What would you describe or could you tell me about some of the challenging times in the 30 years from 1983 to 2013. 44.56 DW: I think the biggest challenge is people that don't totally understand the genius of a Christian liberal arts college and there are people that come in--1 think now they're trying to address it, at least on the faculty side--by having a mission committee. So if a faculty member is interviewing, they also are being interviewed by the mission committee, so they will understand what it means to be a part of Augsburg College knowing it's heritage as a Christian liberal arts school but there are people that come in and they have a whole different model in mind and that would not include the spiritual component. So that manifests itself in different ways and that's another many hour conversation. 46.06 JM: Okay. so that's what the mission committee ... their task? to introduce the new faculty to ... help me understand ... 10 46.15 DW: That's the mission committee and I think it still exists. So if a prospective faculty member is interviewing, they also are being interviewed by the Mission Committee. 46.28 JM: For the spiritual aspect? 46.30 DW: Just to understand not just the spiritual aspect but the whole mission of the college. 46.37 JM: And what is the mission of the college? 46.40 DW: Well the mission would subscribe to the Mission Statement and that has changed over the years. The current Mission Statement I think is different under this administration. Each administration changes that. 46.57 JM: Sure I understand. So that was one of the challenges. Anything else that comes to mind? over 30 years I'm sure there must have been a lot. 47.14 DW: I can say ... I still don't sleep through the night because I was interrupted ... for 30 years I was interrupted pretty much every night and sometimes many times a night. For the crises ... 47.29 JM. Phone calls? 47.30 DW: Phone calls or running to the hospital because of an accident or something like that ... was trying to harm themselves or something like that so it was ... JM: So you had a role of a counselor. 47.46 DW: Um-hmm. Dealing with ... there's a lot of bad stuff that happens on a city college campus or any college campus. lot of things that were ... [phone ringing in background] 48.19 DW: You might want to turn that off. [Pause] 48.29 DW: Sorry about that. 48.30 JM: That's all right. All right and then the rewarding experiences over 30 years. 11 48.37 DW: Well, there were rewarding experiences every day. First of all, it's just a stimulating place to be and you learn something new every day. The people that I met were gifts, so many were gifts. I can't say everyone but ... it was just amazing ... [Dave noted a scene out the window and asked Janet to take a look outside.] It was you know some amazing stories and to see that many were going from point A to point Z. 48.34 JM: The students? 48.36 DW: The students. in terms of intellectual, physical and spiritual development. There's just ... I just heard in the last 24 hours from a couple. One was a person who lived on the streets, now getting a PhD. 50.00 JM: Excellent. 50.02 DW: And had no high school degree. Just kind of amazing stories. Well, Ithink we'll wrap it up here shortly. What do you think ... two more 50.15 JM: questions: how is the perspective of a pastor different (of the students). How is the perspective of the students different than that of the faculty or the administration? 50.33 DW: How is the perspective ... from the pastor's standpoint you mean? 50.39 JM: Yeah. 50.41 DW: Well, I was in a unique position and I think all college pastors and Lutheran college pastors are really in a position of neutrality. You are considered faculty but you're also considered administration. You're kind of, you have a foot in both but you can be a listening ear. You can also at times also be a, take a prophet role if you see that something needs to be challenged or spoken to, some issue, some injustice. Essentially it's a difficult position at times when somebody comes to you with an issue about a faculty member that's ... it's a safe place to come but then it becomes very difficult to know exactly how to resolve everything. There are processes mostly in place but not always. There are people I discovered over the years who just have an axe to grind with religion and they have a found a way to probably direct their hostility towards a chaplain because of that. 52.30 JM: That must be hard. 52.33 DW: It's not been without pain. But it's 97% joy. That's great. And then last question: what would you consider your legacy that 52.46 JM: you left at Augsburg? 52.54 DW: That's a good question. One of the things I learned from my father who learned from his father is that the most important thing a person possesses is their name. And I worked hard at trying to know people's names. When I say worked hard, it wasn't 12 working hard, I basically ... in the early years we had directories and then because of confidentiality issues and things like that, they eliminated that. But there are still ways you can get pictures and know who people are through electronic devices through IT, through programs, athletic programs, etc. So I would pray for students systematically, regularly, every day, every morning, every night. 54.03 JM: Great. 54.13 DW: You can learn people's names that way too [Dave smiles] so you're not only praying for them you're also learning their names. It's hard to be angry with people when you know their name because you know they have a name and they have a mother, and they are a child of God and they're on this earth for a reason and they all have been given gifts and there's just that. You can see potential, you can see the good in every individual because of that. It was fun to watch the potential emerge into full blown action. I guess that would be one of the things. I maybe would say grit. There were easier jobs in the world. I was offered many jobs along the line that would have paid me considerably more but it just seemed like it was a rare opportunity again. Some people call it vocation, some people call it a calling but I think that whole thing has gotten a little bit confusing because they've used it so much. There are rare opportunities that come along and this was a rare opportunity for me and it was one that I really loved. 56.08 JM: Ok, anything you'd like to add about your experience that we haven't discussed. 56.16 DW: Let me look. You know Advent Vespers is kind of an amazing thing. I'd maybe like to tell you a little bit about that. JM: Okay. 56.31 DW: That started in 1980 and I came in 1983 so three of them had gone on before and a guy named Larry Fleming was the genius behind that. He had been at Valparaiso and he had also been at Concordia as a director of one of the choirs up there. But he had this idea that you could, because of Central Lutheran Church (which is just a magnificent structure), that they could maybe do something unique at Augsburg. So I was basically in on the ground floor, three years had gone before but there were only 2 services, maybe even one at one time, and people were just starting to get the word about it. There was a lot of movement with the choirs around the space but then the liturgy became a very important part of it. Developing a theme was one of my challenges along side the people directing the choirs or in charge of that aspect of it. They had many choir directors usually involved but we saw it grow to three, and then to four, and now to five services. Because we have a theme, using that setting and really focusing on and allowing the gospel to speak, called by the gospel again, I just have seen countless number of people who have really understood the gospel in different ways, in new ways. So many people, so many pastors and choir directors called me and asked, "Can I use this reading?", "Can we use this for our Christmas service?" and things like that because this is the first weekend in December. That was really something that I was always doing as I was reading and looking for things that I could use to kind of tie things together with the 13 music as we develop the theme. That was a pure joy and maybe hopefully that's part of a legacy too because it's real easy to have a concert--most colleges have a concert--but this is a service. Many people wanted to have a concert but it's a service. It still is a service. And when you speak about legacy I think you look at Augsburg and it's because of the legacy of so many amazing people who I knew about in high school--just because you hear Augsburg College and you heard about names that went along with that. Probably more so than any other college, it's that relation ... when you hear about St. Thomas, maybe you hear the same thing, but I think Augsburg is unique with the names that have built the place and just the traditions and just the connections. One of the other persons I just heard from this week is a doctor who with her husband, who is also a doctor, and with another group of doctors are establishing a whole health system in Burundi. They had to learn the language and they just felt called to do that. They are really making a difference in this world. It is just amazing to see how people have really impacted the world and maybe it would have happened in another place but I think it was Augsburg and just kind a sense of what you should do with that education allows people to do those sorts of things. 1.00.47 JM: That's a nice summation. Anything else? 1.00.53 DW: The Bunch of Guys Chorus. That's still going strong and people love it and that's created a lot of . . . 1.01.02 JM: Tell me how that started. Was that your idea? 1.01.05 DW: Well, so often at athletic events you'll have a soloist who sometimes may not realize ... they might forget the words or they might try to make a performance out of it, or they play a tape. And one day, 25 years at least maybe more, I thought to myself, it's real privilege to sing the national anthem. Why don't I just invite, especially because I was doing male athletic events, any guy in the audience who wanted to do that. Now I had set this up so I'd have a few good singers and pretty soon a lot of people who had never sung in their life came and joined us and just the thrill of singing the national anthem is amazing. 1.02.04 JM: Do you sing along with music? 1.02.09 DW: It's two part music, and I bring them down and they come around me. On the football field they go down on the field with a remote mike. Then at basketball and wrestling they just come and surround me at the table but it ... we've had as many as 200 guys (that would be a record) but you know usually it's a dozen guys or something like that, you know for football it would be more than that. But it's a powerful thing and it's really--especially for veterans who have served the country to be able to do--is really a neat thing to see. And for younger ones that join in, they have a sense of the magnitude of what a national anthem is about. 1.03.10 JM: Do you still do that? 14
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Robert "Bob" Stacke, 2015
Collection: HIS 300 Oral History Project
Search Result: Interview Transcript CC - The following interview was conducted with Robert Stacke on behalf of the Public History 300 class's oral history project for the Augsburg College archives. It took place on March 14,2015 at Augsburg College. The interviewer is Caitlin Crowley. So you can just star...
Show more Interview Transcript CC - The following interview was conducted with Robert Stacke on behalf of the Public History 300 class's oral history project for the Augsburg College archives. It took place on March 14,2015 at Augsburg College. The interviewer is Caitlin Crowley. So you can just stare your background and education and the daGs. RS - Okay, so my background is that I went to Augsburg College 66-71 and got my bachelors degree in music and came back and did music education for 1971 and then taught for a bunch ofyearc, werfi to Saint Thomas, got my masters. Taught for a bunch of years and then went to the U and got my doctorate. And in between I always played drums and sometimes stopped teaching and played drums at different places in Maracaibo and Symphony Orchestra and Chanhassen Dinner Theater but I've always liked to teach, so that's my backgrormd. Always music. CC - Tell me about your time as a student at Augsburg RS - It was a fi.rn time. I had a good time. CC - What drew you to shrdy at Augsburg? RS - The music program. I went to a camp at big sandy lake, a music camp, when I was in eighth $ade. One of the faculty members was a pianist. We did Rhapsody in Blue and from then oq I was coming to Augsburg. CC - What was Augsburg like when you went there? Do you remernber the name of the p,resident ofthe college or some ofyour professon' names? RS - Oh sure, of course. Charlie Anderson was the president of the college then and he was a great guy and, Oscar Andersoru excuse me. And he was super personable and always engaged with the students. Kinda at the forefront ofa lot of different issues. Then it was more a gender issue than racial issues but he was always at the forefront to get more equality between men md women. A wonderfirl sense of humor, the president. Could raise money. He loved the arts. He was just a fantastic guy. I had a lot of interaction with him and totally enjoyed him. The school then, yea[ it was a tumultuous time during the 60s and I think Augsburg really fred well. It was a place of good values and ideals and charging ahead. They did a lot. CC - Did your family background draw you to Augsburg College? A lot of pmple who went to Augsburg were Norwegian or Lutheran in background. RS - Na[ none ofthat. My mother's from Australia. My dad was a merchant sailor...met her in Aushalia, went back to sea She came over here. After two years ofnot seeing hinl and they got maried. And I'm the son of a sailor. So yea[ my heritage is IrishAustralian. CC - Not at all Norwegian or Lutheran. RS - Not even close. CC - So you graduaed with a degree in music education. What kinds of classes did you take? RS - Basically the same thing that we have the students do now. You have your core curriculum with theory, music history, per:formance studies, and playing in ensemble and then all the gen. edsjust history and I had Don Gustafson who I adorcd. CC - Was he a history professor? RS - Yeah uh huh. CC - What kind of history did you take? RS - World hisory. And he just rctircd last year with me but he was around a lot longer than I was. He was a geat guy. But he was a wonderfrrl teacher and I remember him very, very well. We had really dynamic folks I remember all of my English teachers and music teachers and all the sorts of things that we did in the deparhnent. And the curriculum in the music deparhnent really hasn't changed much. Its standard fare across the world, really. The core curriculum. And I think one of the things that was really interesting here was tlla;t jan was the taboo music. And the world. Because it was the devils own music or you just made it up and everything, so the better things I did as a student and a teacher is we started a jazz band when I was a shrdent here. Ilwasn't really sanctioned. We had to practice in the middle of the night and we'd find ways into the music building, which was an old chrrch in those dayg to practice. Wrote our own music, which is fantastic. It was one of those things that was forced on us because there was no budget for music and so we wrote our own and the bmd director at the time Mayo Savold really championed us and la us perfomr on tlrc band concert. So we started kind of a jezz program here and some singers like we have with our jive or gospel praise singers and Jim Lindstrom was a choir mernber and he did the vocal and I did the insfumental and then when I came back we put it all back together again. We built i! and im really proud of the jazz program. CC - What were some of those people's names just so.. . RS - Oh the band director was Mayo Savold. M-A-Y-O Savold, and the actual rehearsal room is named after him, and Lee Sateren, Leland Sateren was the departsnent chair and theory teacher. He's the one I mid that played at that music camp. Small group of people but very influential on so many ofus. CC - So you think slowly people started to accept jazz a little more as a valid form of music at Augsburg? RS - Yealu it took forever. Like, when I first started lrcre to get jazz history it took forn times through acadernic affairs committee because they didn't thinl they couldn't see how that was diverse or worthwhile music. And this was, I'm talking, 25 years ago so all those people ae long since not here but it was a real battle to get that kind of music into the curriculurn. CC - So was that difficult for you as far as study abroad Fograms too, related ta jaz? RS - By then things changed really quicHy and it's never been a barrier, in fact it's been a plus now. We feel that we forged ahead. Like, for instance there was this thing called a music educators association and I was president ofthe jaz association of it. Well they let me come in but I couldn't vote because jazz qzs5o'1 u legitimate music. I mean, for real, it was like, 'No you can come but you don't, you can't vote trecause you're a joz musician." CC - You're a citizen without suftage. RS - That's right. Oh yeah it was really ba4 some racial things too, just awfrrl because they associated jaz-z with African Americans and we really battled a long time with different things. CC - Do you think that the college being diversified had anything to do with jazz being slowly accepted? RS - No, I think just the times. We were always a diverse camprts. Not to the extent that we are now but it would reflect the city pretty well. It wasn't a place where you just came and it was just all Norwegians or white folks. Even back then we wanted to have more diversity I remember always saying that we we should just look across the freeway here at groups of people and say we should be recruiting within our area And, of course, we do now. It was always a goal of Augsburg to become part of the crty and to show the diversity of the city. Even back then. CC So has Augsburg's music program always worked with people around the - RS - Yeah I think we did. At least in my experience. We would bning it guest artists like we have down here today like people from Cuba p,racticing and people over at cedar cultural center with all the Somali population. Back then it was more African American jazz musicians that we had contact with and we'd bring in some of the great players but I think we've always reflected our community well. I'm proud of this place. CC - Did you meet anyone at Augsburg that changed your life? RS - Yeah, my wife. CC - Okay, you should tell me about, like how did you meet your wife here? RS - Band. CC - In band? RS - Yeah, stre was a drummer too. CC - Oh I didn't know that. RS - Yeah. So, yep we met in band. I was a couple years older. She right out here on the comer right outside my office. So we juS dafed and got married the first week after graduation. CC - Wow. And how long have you been married now? RS - Forty yearq something? Yes. CC - So you alrcady told me a little bit about this but can you tell me how Augsburg was different than it is now? RS - You know. That's a searching question because I've always just felt a part of a continuum here and I think its evolved in so many good directions faster than a lot of things have evolved and I've always found that a place of values within having people when I recruit and when I went here and when I brag about the school and its are you a Lutheran school and yes we are a Lutheran school but everybody feels welcome here and I would my that even in the chapel, yeall we have religious ceremonies in the chapel but I don't care, it's about values more than it is about a certain denomination or certain religion its that everybody should feel welcome in our chapel. The values system of Augsburg was wonderfirl when I went herre. I mean people were protected and I just - remember it would when people (were) partying too much or getting drunk or whatever...you know they'd take care of them it wasn't like oh look here's a narc you know or whatever and people for the most part took care of each other. And same thing with the social issueg if someone's being bullied or the racially discriminated against I always felt the community came together and said no we're not gonna tolerate that and I think the continuum is here and with curriculnm its the same thing. With the honors progftm becoming so prominent and such a good thing here at Augsburg there always was something like tbat but with the honors program I think it was continuum of getting a diverse body ofstudents in. And also our core students that really glommed onto different things. It hasn't changed that much it's changed with the times. It hasn't been stuck in the past. So it's a nice continuum. CC- OtL and you did talk about this a little bit too, what was the diversity on campus like compa.red to now? RS- Oh, it was less of course. Because the Twin Cities was a lot less diverse. And so again I'll go back and say that I think we always reflected the community. And so the diversity it was here it wasn't probably the big topic all the time and so it wasn't part of our mission staternent but it was just part of us. I remembet Malcom X when he was assassinated and Martin Luther King I mean that was a huge impact on Augsburg community, and saying this is a honible thing to happen and people banding together and supporting the Atican American here or trying to understand, what the situation was. And so yes, it's always been very welcoming and a diverse population. And there was a lot of things too with Native Americans back then too where we try to be more inclusive with the Native American population. They were just blocks away, so, yeah. CC- And did Native Americans so, that community became then while you were at Augsburg? RS- I think recognized. I don't remember if they were actively recruited or anything like that. But think again, the social services and our outreach programs I think they reached out to the Native American population because that was one of the prominent non-white populations at the time. And of course the immigrants were more Norwegian than they were Somali or East African so, I think that's really int€resting that this neighborhood has always been an immigrant neighborhood and now it's East Africa rather than Scandinavian, and it's really cool. CC- Yeah that is. I had no idea that there was a huge Norwegian population here. RS- Oh around here? Oh yeal1 and musically it was all these fiddle players. CC- Really? RS- Ohyeah. CC- Wow, did you have the fiddle playing in school or not? RS- No it was mostly just in the commrmity, you'd get all these Norwegian dancers and bands and all that sort ofthing around andCC- That's cool. RS- Yeah it was. And yeah then we had, the Norwegian roots were much more prominent then because I think more Norwegians went here but rhen we had lutefisk at Christmas, we had all that stuff we'd have in the cornmons. You might want to gag but it was still there and so the Lutheran thing was big... but still very encompassing of the community. CC- So you think the changes that have happened to Augsburg are positive or negative? RS- Oh I think they're positive. I thinll I think just... people are people. And if you're thinking of the diversity issue it shouldn't matt€r, it just, everyone should feel welcome here and think they do. I think that's very important. I think academically, we go in cycles. And we need to c,oncenhate- that this is a college of higher education and really continue to shive to have excellent acadernic programs. Without that I think everything else suffers and goes away. And I think there has to be something that's academically rigorous all the time so people feel proud of the degree they get not just social or the wealth ofoutreach programs we have it has to be academically very proud too. CC- So do you guys have several diflerent majors in the music deparbnent? RS- We have five. CC- Five? And has tlnt been like that since you've- and more RSi- Uh uh. No. CC- Which ones were added? RS- When I was here it was basically music education... just a BA, and it was kind of perfomrances and since, well, with me as cbair we added music business. Music education became very shong. Music therapy was added with Roberta Kagin which was quite a while ago I think we're going on the fortieth anniversary of music therapy. So we have five degree programs, we have a BA, a degree in performance, a degree in music educatio4 a degree in businesq and a degree in... did I say education, or? CC- Yeah I think so. RS- So we have five. CC- Ok. And you said as chair you helped add several ofthose? RS- Yeah the business one for sure. CC- The business one. Great. RS- And the curriculum has really diversified in that we have abig jaz.z studies prograrl we have snall combo groups that celebrate contemporary music or rock, which I'm, that put in and I'm very proud of that because think that music education should encompass not just your classical or band geeks, you know, and I mean band geeks with affection because I'm the band director, or was. And music education has to accompany everybody and all styles and you can teach all those elements of music in a nontraditional way. CC- Ok so you helped add a lot of smaller bands. RS- Yep. CC- Oh great. So can you name a couple of those again I missed... RS- Ob just like contemporary ensembles we started three years ago, which would be rock bands and things like that and then we have a group now that accompanies a lot of Somali artists over at the Cedar Cultural Center and that's a mixture of alumni and current Augsburg sfudents and then as different Somali artists come in we rehearse with them, put on performances at Augsburg and at the Cedar Cultural Center and now we're starting to branch out and work on a presentation in Chicago and things like that so. Not for sure, but we're hoping it'll come tbrough. CC- What's the language barrier like with people... Somalian population or others? RS- It's so much fun. Because, you get together and the language becomes somewhat of a challenge but what's fun about it is that we have, we just talk in music. And they don't read music, they do everything by ear. We're the opposite, we do everything by writteru so you're combining musical leaming styles, plus language barriers, so you're singing back and forth, finding all new ways of commrmication...and it's a ball. And it's so fun, and it works. We just laugh about it... because... nobody cares, and language doesn't matter. It comes across really well. I I CC-Wow. RS- Yeah it's just an amazing situation. And culturally, we're so proud of this because you've go! you get different genders, and whicll and so in the cultrnes (this) is a big deal, especially Somali culturc... and that's breaking dovm, where women arc now, cafl sing, and they're not ostracized because they're singing a song. They can become musiciang so they're grormdbreaking in that area. To us thBt's just '.of course,', but as we leamed in Cuba, you're (women) not even supposed to play drums in some cultures. CC- Yeah. RS- Same \ing within the Somali culture, but that's breaking down, you have all these white folks playing with Somali's and nobody cares. It's just... we're making music, and it's a really fantastic thing. So it's a fusion of cultures, and music styles. We're learning so much from each other. CC- Are they ever surprised that these people arc interested in their music, or t}at they're ... able to play their music? RS- I think they're delighted. And at first it was like, *Oh my gosh, what's going to happen here? And as we rehearsed and werything they understood how much we're anjoying the music, and want to learn the music, and are infusing some of our jazz and R&B lines into their music which fils perfectly because their shrff is like Bob Marley meets Malaysia meets East Africa meets a little bit of R&B and hiphop. It's just this wonderfrd mixtrre of creolization of 516 many art forms and.. . they're excited about what we're doing. CC-Awesome. RS- It is. CC- Just going to make sure these (microphones) ae still working. They are. Hooray! Ok so I apologize, some of these (questions) are sort of repeats, but... tell me about your time as a professor at Augsburg, and the dates. RS- Yeah, I started here in 190, and I'm sill going I'm just not firll time anymore. I got sick a year ago and had a forcibly... the doc said you better Sop, so I did. And so, bnt I'm still teaching a class in Cuba, administering a grant, and doing different things here, different projects. So faculty, not frrll time anymore. CC- So tell me a little bit about the projects that you're doing now at Augsburg. RS- A lot of it's what we were just talking about. The Somali connections, whe're I put bands together for the Somali rtists... helping with some music education and things with some of the grad students where we're fying to do a zustainable project with some of our commrmity. In other words... training people in seminars, maybe classroom settingq and we're talking like high school students where they leam a skill like stage We don't think there's one pemon from East Africa that is a light p€rson, a sormd person, or any type of stage production, so we came up with the idea and we met with the Mirmeapolis schools, Bill Greeq who used to be superinterdant, and we came up with this ide4 Steve Herzog, who was in the gmduate program, that we tain anybody that wants but really trying to target more of the folks that, tom East Africa, and how to do recording technology, lighting technologies, just being a stage manager, all the things that (you) need to do to put on a production. And it doesn't have to be theatrical, it can be a musical So, they're leaming music, they're leaming these skills, and hopefully can get employment. So that's what- yesterday- I did. CC- Great. RS- Yeah. And ofcourse I love my Cuba class. CC- What brought you to... Augsburg to teach? I know that you taught at a couple other places before you taught at Augsburg. RS- I taught public school for almost seventeen years- Minneapolis, Bloomington and Hopkins. then I was at Saint Cloud for a couple years and I kept going to school and getting more of my degrees, and I've always wanted to come home... back to Augsburg. And I.., going dou,n the questions here... a position opened up and I applied, and it was a part-time position, and I got the job. And then it became a tenure track position and I had to reapply and go through the whole search process again. Kept the job, and I've been here ever since. Got t€nure, so, yeah. CC- Nice, was that a difficult process, or.. .? RS- It's nerve wracking. Yeah because you have to, it's hard because you have to convince people that you're worthwhile and fhat's, in a way, humiliating, and in another way it's an opportunity, so it's a really hard thing to find that balance. Yeah, it's a good pmoess. It's very good because you'rc judged by your peers, you're judged by the administration, and then outside folks so I think it's very fair. And it gives quality education to you guys. CC- How did you become the chair of the music deparfnent? RS- About fourteen years ago Merilee Klernp was chair, slre needed to go back to school, and I was elected, and reelected and reelected. .. CC- Do you have to be reelected wery... how many years? RS- Let's see, six years. CC- Six years, ok. RS- That's how we did it. CC- So are you still chair of the music department then? RS-No. CC- Who's chair now? RS- John Schmidt. CC- John Schmidt? RSi- Yeah. CC- Ok. Ahight. What responsibilities did you have as chair of the music departrnent? RS- I think it's really just getting all the ideas of everyMy together and trying to have a dernocracy where people decide on how to implement their ideas, and the challenge there is of course everybody has lheir own ideas but I think that kind ef thing is good. You don't want everybody to agee on everything because it's gonna be a one-track departnent. So when you have discussion or people feeling very passionaGly about something, it's great if we can dl air it together and come to a nice compromise or a conclusion to it. And you assign classes to peoplq you hire all the adjuncts, and here we always, I would be the main person, but I always open up to anyone in lhe faculty lhat wanted input. So, and now we have a mastersr. That's another fting I did with Roberta Kagin, we put the masters of music th*py iru and that's another degree program we have. CC- Is that the only even higher level class you guys have? RS- Yes. CC- Or sorry, degree. RS- In the music departnent. Oh our music ed kind of but it's not a masters in music education it's a masters in education with an emphasis in music. CC- I see. Ok. Ahight. From your experience being a teacher, what do you think makes Augsburg unique? RS- I think we can be really progressive. And I'm proud of our deparment in that it's progressive in curiculum. That we have your traditional, your classical traditional musicwhich you have to have, it's mandated to get acs€ditation and everything like that, but at the same time we celebrate music from everyrvhere and all styles of music. So you can be a classical singer, but at the same time tum around and sing in a rock band or a gospel group, or play jaa or play charnber music. We have, I thinh an incredibly wide base curriculum where we celebrate all people's styles and ne€ds. CC- Nice. And when you were a student did you feel the same way or was it different? RS- Oh, it was very traditional. cc- ok. RS- YealL and... right down the line. And when I was a student- I'm a dnrmmer- and they had no idea what to do with me. Because nobody- they had never had a drum person as a major in the school. And so for recitals and stntr, they had no idea what I was supposed to do. CC- They didn't know how to test you on anything? RS- No, no, because. no, it was great. And so I studied with Elliot Fine who was in the Minnesota Orchestra. So they said, "Bob, go study with him," and... I had a lot of chances to play here and show what I could do but yea[ it was kind of interesting. It was fun. Now of course, they can't pull that on me, so when I go to recitals, I know what they'rc supposed to do. CC- Did they have you leam any other instruments? RS- Ob, sure. For music education you have to have a working knowledge ofjust about werything. CC- Wow. And did they make you learn how to play werything or jus kind of leam basic knowledge? RS- Oh you have to lern to play a little bit of a brass instrument, a valve instnrmen! a trombone. . . violin was... yes. We still do lhat to everybdy. You have to have a working knowledge of strings, brass, percussion, because howCC- Which ones did you learn? RS- Oh I did trumpet, violin, Something from each family. CC- Ok. And what was yolrr favorite part about being a teacher? RS- Oh, the students. Yeah, and interaAing with the students, and trying to help thern make their dreams come tnre, md listening to what they think should happen. It's because it's your time noq it's not the firture, it's now for you grrys. And so, yeah, it's the students. That's what I miss, t€xribly, about not teaching every day is coming in and seeing everybody and interacting with students. It's actually very sad for me. hard. CC- Well at least you still get to be here part time, right? RS- Yeah. CC- I'm really int€rest€d in the shrdy abroad trips you've taken too. Obviously I went on one of those study abroad trips with you" so tell me about the study ab,road tips you've taken. RS- Oh yea[ I was, I've been really lucky trcause many years ago- 1993... 1990 something in there the dean sai4 *Bob, you should teach an interim class," and I sai4 *Yeah, if it's in the Caribbean " they go, *Go for it!" So we came up with a program ttrough this thing called U-may, Augsburg didn't have as much short-term study abroad then, and so we put together this program in Jamaica. And so it was 21 to 23 days long, and I did that nine times I thirik? CC- Wow. Nine years in a row? RS- Every couple of years... So it was a consortiurn, it was really our consortium of schools. It was Saint Thomas, Saint Kates, Saint Bens, Saint Johns, Bethel, and... ACTC schools, and I mean, it'd fill overnight. clarineL kty 32:26 CC-Wow. RS- And so, it was a wonderfirl prcgram. lVe'd study Caribbean music. We'd go to Bob Marley's recording studio and we saw a lot of people there... really fun stuff. CC- What was the class called? RS- History of Caribbean Music in Jamaica. cc- ok. RS- Hasn't changed much. CC- But it was a focus on the Jamaican rnusic? RS- Sure. And more broad than what we did in Cuba because we had three weeks and so we really probably... lots of emphasis on Jamaican music. We leamed a lot of different music of the differcnt islands and styles of music. I think the big telling thing that we talked about on our tip was just the recording thing. I think we could do a whole timeline of things tlnt I brought down for people to listen to the music on. I remernber first bringing a big boom box with a cassette tape in it- not eight track bu! you know- and a cassette tape, and trying to find power outlets and doing this and that and getting the huge speakers and getting it through (customs) and it was an amazing situation, and then those got smaller and better and start getting CDs, I mean we didn't even have CDs when I started doing the Jamaican thing. And so I'd get the CD player and I'd put the CDs in and I'd have to bdng a big thing of CDs, because you couldn't bum thern in those early times. So I rhink you know, and then we went to more phones, and then thene would be a huge doc for those, and cords you'd have to put in on the speaker, and so it was all that. And that was like, tlnee, four years ago. And now youjust bring your phone, and a... CC- A portable speaker RS- A portable speaker like we used and... there you go. It's fantastic. I really would love to do that visual thing ofthe first ones I bnrought down. CC- So is that the only, the only place you went or did you go to other study abroad trips? RS- The only ones- Yes, I led a trip to northem Ireland where we studied peace and reconciliation and tlnt was like six weeks. CC- When was that? RS- 2002 I think? cc- ok. RS- Or maybe a little earlier. cc- ok. RS- No, 2003 we went to Cuba, so it was- tlrat was my first trip to Cuba. But it was in there. cc- ok. RS- Yeah, bnt like 2000 something like that. CC- And what was that like as far as music educatioq or was it just- was it a music class or a different kind of class? RS- With errphasis on music, and what was interesting was studying the music of the troubles between northem Ireland, Irreland, and England. And it goes back a thousand years. And I found old, ancient books that had the lyrics of hate at the time and between denominations of the same religion which nobody could quite understand and it would go through this whole... And I'm talking about songs hundreds of years ol4 would start off with the romanticism of a revolution. we can relate this to cuban trips, we can relate this to Nicaragu4 and the idealism of revolution the way you want a great outcome, and then the realities of revolution where people dig and how do you reconcile that, is it wortltwhere does thuggery come into it. We see in so many places now, people start with an idealism, and then thugs come in and riot and loot and really you could ask them why are you here? Because it's fim? I mean I'm ov€rdrama(tizing)... but there's a lot of that and I think the thuggery and the same thing is happening in the Mddle East. Some of the idealisn is good but people just go crazy and do horrible things. CC-Right. RS- And so, the same thing happened with Sandinistas and all that in Cuba, their revolution, the idealism was grcat but the reality of killing people. And so the music would reflect all tlnt and tlrcn we would go to sites and study what we hearrd" and we had a lot of guest speakers. There was a group I can't rernernber the name- but they were (from) northern Ireland and they had sang a lot of protest songs against the British, and three out of the six were assassinated for their music. And so I interviewed the three of them that were left and then came to... a lot of the study was people of revolution have a lot of music. But the people in charge have very little. CC-Wow. RS- And you know, and that's a sweeping generalization because you could say we have a nationalistic period of'\rave the flag" country western music and all that sort of thing and other cormtries have the same thing but for that sort of thing at those periods of time, it seems the revolutionaries have a lot more music than the people in charge because they don't want to admit to something terribly wrorg intemally. A civil war, revolution. So we studied that. CC- That sounds like a fabulous trip. RS- It was, yeah. CC- I would love to go to Ireland. RS- Yeah. It's a great place. CC- So, you took a trip... You've been to Ireland, to Cubq to Jamaic4 and you said Nicaragua as well? RS- Yeah. CC- Was that also a history of Caribbean music class? RS- No that was just something I went on with CGE, I didn't take students, but there was some students that we met and worked with so, so basically it's been Jamaica Ireland study abroad. And then with our ensembles we've been all over the world. CC- Oh yeah, I'd like to hear about that as well. You've taken trips with the Augsburg bands RS- And choirs, and orchestras. CC- Oh ok Yeah tell me a little bit about those trips or where they were, or anything you'd like to tell me. RS- We've really been all over the world. It's fantastic. The band has been to Norway, Ireland, England, and the last hip was to Turkey, the one before tlnt Romania... and performed, 61d agaiq the choir- same thing. China, most of east- west€fli, most of eastern Europe. CC- Wow. RS- All over the world. Literally. And it's been fantastic because again just like the things with the concerts here you find that people are all the same. And they want to celebrate music, we want to celebrate love, we want to celebrate our lives, we juS wantninety nine percent of the world is quite normal, it's the- and we nwer hear about iq we hear about that one percent that's nuts and abnormal that deshoys things for everybody else. Most of us want the same thing. And just kind of leave us alone to do what we want and live our lives. CC- And play music. RS- And play music. An4 and so I think all those trips are fantastic. Because we try to interact with student musicians from all those countries. So yea[ it's been a wonderfirl thing to be able to go on these hips. CC- That's wonderfirl. And I know it's hard to pick a memory, or can you tell me any of your favorite countries, any funny stories or anything. RS- think for countries, it's always the unfamiliar like. It's the ones that just unexpected \ings (are) gonna happen. I think Romania was wonderfirl that way because it's- it's just coming out of really a dark time, it was one of the last cormtries to get rid of commrmism, the celebration of life is fantastic. So those type of place, Estonia was the same, we went with the choir, we went in the period where the Russians had really jus given them their independence after the fall of the wall and stuff, and the celebration of independence was fantastic. So I think that sort of thing for me, it's always the unfamiliar tlnt I really like to go towards. CC- Yeah. How did the study abroad trips differ from the trips you took with the band? RS- Not perforrnance. For me, the sfudy abroad without perfonnance are a lot less stressfirl. Because you're not worried about acoustics, you're not worried about getting homs there, you're not worried about wear the uniforms or the dresses or this or that, and are people getting sick- mean you always care but it's hard when you lose an instrumentalist, they can't per:form or sing so it's a lot less shessfirl. And bu! on the other side, is that when you have a group of non-performerg you see it in a whole differelrt light and hear it in a whole different light, because I think the non-perfonners hear music different thnn the performers. It's more of an emotional response than an emotional, analytical rcsponse. It gives an honesty to it tlnf I leam so much from- you guys- and things like that. CC- So the people that play inshuments arc mone methodical about how they see the otherRS- I think so, and I'm the same way, because we're so trained that oh listen to this- this is in tune, does the melody fit the rhythm, is- what key is it in, and how are they articulating it, is it accurare, all these rhings we're tained to do. And we sometimes miss the message of the music. CC- Right. lVould you guys ask- would the teachers ask the people more emotional type questions? Intemrption here- Peter Hendrickson opens door. RS- Oops, hi. PH- I didn't think you were here. I was gonna ask- see ifthe bus was here. RS- You have a gr€at tour. PH- Thank yoq " ^nk you. We will. Sorry. CC- It's ok. RS- We're just dorng an interview thing. You know, this is my first tour... you know Peter, this is my first trip without going with you in twenty some yearc. I I I PH- I know. RS- It's really sad. PH- I know. RS- But have a great trip. CC- What's the trip? PH- The choir tour. RS- The choir tour. CC- Ob have fim. Peter Hendrickson leaves. RS- Yeah, firs tip I haven't gone on in twenty years. CC- Aw. Where are they going? RS- Iowa. CC- Iowa ok. Let's see. Do you have any... let's see. Tell me about your favorite, or one ofyour favorite mernories tom a band trip. Or a study abroad tip. Or both. RS- Yeah. . . I think a lot of it is when people and both things aren't tourists but travellers, and then like our group that wexrt to Cuba. Everybody was trying to understand the culture. We weren't looking at werything like we were perpetually in a box looking at little figurines out there, we tried to becorne part of the culture or rmderstand the culture. And not being tourists, we were really travellers. And I think tlnt's the best memories of the groups like that. I think performance wise sometimes you have a magical space like with Peter and his choir we w€re in Estonia... Yes it was in Estonia we were in an old church, no ceiling, and then we found out... And there was boxes of skulls and bones. And we found out that this was a place that Nazis has murdered and deshoyed the church when they were leaving and then the Russians did the same thing, so this place was just pounded. And they sang a concert that was so ernotional because it was in memory of those people that lost their lives because they just wanted to be free. And they got it coming and going- they got it by the Nazis and they got it by the Russians, so that is an incredible mernory to me. CC- That is really anrazing. So tell me about why you decided to retire. RS- Oh that was... I had no intent on retiring, and then I had some heart trouble and had surgery and they said I'd better stop... working fiilItime to take care of myself. So that's the gis of ig and it's been hard because I didn't prcpare myself for not being part of Augsburg. It just happened, like overnight. Literally. So, yeah, it's been really tough. So, but teaching these classes and being here doing things like this. CC- Right... what year was thafl Was that this year that you becameRS- A year ago. So yeah, it would have been last official firll time day was August of 2014. So it's just been six months. CC- Ok. And... well you've told me a little bit about this already, a lot about it actually... Tell me about your current musical projects. RS- Otr, it's really fun. And like I said, I'm working with the Cedar Cultual Center and Augsburg and on these Somali groups that come in. We do perfonnances with therq depending on their needs. Sometimes it's a full ban4 sometimes it's a srraller group. We have five of those that we were doing in the course of this year and a hal! so we have two left. And musically, I just came from a rehearsal. It's a repertoire orchestra where we were playing some vivelias and MC Korsakofr and I'm playing and travelling as much can. But musically keeping very active and playing and the grant's keeping me very happy here. Yeah. CC- So do you... do you play usually when you... or do you direct these groups? as I RS- These groups for Augsbqg I usually direct. Or play like auxiliary percussion. We have such fine people here, they slrould be playmg not me. But like if it's not Augsburg then I play. CC- Ok. So you applied for a grant to do this? RS- Yeah, Doris fhrke. Huge- it's called Building Bridges. CC- Doris Duke? RS- Duke. Of D.rke University and Drke tobacco... was the big tobacco baron and trying to do some good wilh her money. And so she has all these educational things, and this is to promote Muslim cultre through music. And of cornse that's a dichotomy because a lot of people think Muslims don't like music. mean we're talking about these generalizations, here's this huge grant that we're doing to promote Muslim culture through music. So it's proving most folks do like music. And things like that... So we get this gmnt and we vtrrote it two yees ago and the Cedar is the administrator of it and everything so it's in parhership with Augsburg. So I'm the Augsburg music connection. CC- Wonderfirl. RS- Yeah. CC- And... Just going to make sure everything is good and working still. Alright. And this is the final question. What do you consider your legacies at Augsburg? As a student, as a pmfessor... RS- I hope the students remember me well. I think about that. It's like, you know, my peers and my deparfneng and my students" and I think sometimes you get an email from twenty years ago and you just go "lhis is so cool." And then running into my colleagues in the departnent. I think that's the legacy: that I rcally tried to be a good teacher. And people would ask me, you've taught for forty swen years, why do you keep wanting to do it? And I said because I've never got it right. So it's a wonderfrrl challenge. And so that's how (I want to be) rerrembered. As a gmd teacher. CC- Well thank you so much for doing this oral history wilh me, I really appreciate iq and your answers were really awesome, so thank you so much. RS- Thank you. I
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Preenon Huq, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Sydney Baker: 00:01 All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home cooked meal...
Show more This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Sydney Baker: 00:01 All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home cooked meal? Preenon Huq: 00:13 Um, so my favorite is chicken with rice. It sounds kind of basic, but it's not just the regular like chicken with rice. Um, I don't know the actual word for it because it's like a Ban-, a- a dish from Bangladesh, but basically it's like almost the color of it is like an orange, golden chicken, and it has sauce. Like a curry on top of it. And then Porata is, my favorite for breakfast and that goes with the chicken or you can do rice. But Porata's like a bread. It's got like a lot of butter in it, inbetween like different layers, to make it. Preenon Huq: 00:49 I just cam back from Bangladesh and I had those everyday at like 6am, which is like, ridiculous amount you know. But thatthat's definitely my favorite meal. Sydney Baker: 00:57 Who makes it best? Preenon Huq: 00:59 Um. Well, when I was in Bangladesh, like having it fresh, making everything fresh, um... It's kinda weird when I was in Bangladesh, they would say like, "Oh we made this dish for you". But really like, there were servants there. And so those servants were making the dish, right? And so like people would say like, "Oh yeah so and so makes it best". But then you like, go there and yo- they don't cook at all like, it was like their servant that was making it. So it's not- I thought it was really interesting that, you're kinda taking credit for it. They're obviously not making anything. Preenon Huq: 01:30 Um, my grandma's sister did. She like, put it on a pan and made it. But when it came to like, rolling the actual dough and everything, the servant did that. So like, both of them kinda did do it but, really like, I think the servant does like all the work for that. Sydney Baker: 01:46 How often do you go back to Bangladesh? Preenon Huq: 01:48 Uh, that was the first time going since I was like 2. I'm 22 now so, you know 20 years and, I wanna go more frequently like, now that I know what it's like, um... What kinda culture there is and I wish I got to see more of like, how much it's changed and developed over the last couple years, just because it's been so dramatic, the changes. Like, my grandma was saying that when she was growing up, poor people didn't even have clothes. Now Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 1 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. you see them with cell phones and they're fully clothed and everything. Like their whole life has changed, so much. Sydney Baker: 02:19 Who do you stay with when you go? Preenon Huq: 02:21 Um, because it was my first time going, but we stayed with my grandma's sister. They live there half the year and then they live in the US half the year. Sydney Baker: 02:30 Very nice. Where did you go to high school? Preenon Huq: 02:32 I went to Armstrong High School. Sydney Baker: 02:34 Okay, uh what was your favorite subject and why? Preenon Huq: 02:38 Oh, well, that's kind of a tough one I mean gym class is the best like, but, in terms of actual subjects... I really liked economics, um just because it's something that's always interested me. Like paying attention to like how much the world is connected financially, that's also something I've always been into when I was a kid, is finances. But, yeah that was definitely my favorite class. It wasn't necessarily the class I did the best in, but it would- definitely was my favorite class. Sydney Baker: 03:09 Uh, did you have any favorite teachers and what kind of an impact did they have on you? Preenon Huq: 03:13 Um, yeah there is this one teacher um, her name was Kaya Peters. Now she's Kaya Herd. But she, was adopted and I think originally she was from Korea, if I remember. But basically she was my favorite just 'cause she really like, understood the students and related to them a lot, which I appreciated a lot. Preenon Huq: 03:36 Um, there's a teacher there, James Redelsheimer, after I graduated me and him connected very well. A lot of us- me and him have both like the same drive, we have a lot of the same things in common and that's just something um, we just kind of realized after um, I graduated. And so we have a really strong relationship right now. Um, and I talk to him on- frequently on a regular basis. I go back to his class and talk about like personal finance, like how to pay off your student loans, those kinda things. Preenon Huq: 04:04 Um, that's something that I was successful in doing and so it's really like, my way of giving back, to the community. And especially like, it's nice being like a person of color to be able to go into the classrooms and tell students like "Yes, you can go to Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 2 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. college, and yes it is- you are able to work and be able to pay it off. Not necessarily the case for everybody but like, based on your situation you know... take advantage of what- what's given to you". Sydney Baker: 04:29 Were there a lot of people of color at your school? Preenon Huq: 04:31 No. Um, there's definitely more now, like, every time I go back I see more students of color. Um, there was students of color, not to say that there wasn't any, there was. But, I wouldn't say that they necessarily mixed a lot. Um, and then you always saw like... sorry. Sydney Baker: 04:50 That's okay. Preenon Huq: 04:51 The students that are like coke you know and just- (laughing). Um, but you always like see like, you know, students of color were like, usually in the regular classes, where like you know, all the white students were and AP classes. And I just- that was just like something that I didn't really like you know, 'cause it just felt like a different type of segregation. Sydney Baker: 05:13 Mmm (affirmative). Preenon Huq: 05:14 Um, and you know I just- it doesn't- like they would say like, "Oh well these students are doing this and stuff in class", but like, I mean I would say that were all like, you know the same, we all have the capabilities and stuff so why, or what did those students have that the other students of color didn't have? Sydney Baker: 05:32 What was your friend group like? Preenon Huq: 05:34 Uh, mainly white. Um, most of my friends are white, um. Like I was- I remember one kid in like seventh grade said like, he slept over at one of our other friends who's black, house and he was like "that was the first time I ever slept over at somebody who's black's house". Like, just kinda different I thought that was likethat- that stuck with me my whole life. You know, hearing that, um... but all my friends, um, majority of them are white. I do have a lot of friends that- of, um, that are- like of color. But usually they're more in like the Bangalian community, or I, hang out with them in like, different crowds and stuff. Preenon Huq: 06:11 Um, I would say I was probably one of the most well-connected students like, at my college. Sorry, my high school. And, so a lot of people like- and maybe it helped too because I was a person of color that they can connect well with me, but then also I hang Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 3 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. out with a lot of students that are white. But it's not something that I really thought about really. Like it honestly, like- I didn't think about it much until I got to like college, then that's really when I realized like wow you know my- my friend group was all white people, you know, it's a whole different- it's a whole different friend group and it's so different talking to them and like what you can and what you can't talk about as well. Sydney Baker: 06:49 And why was that, what was it about college that changed things for you? Preenon Huq: 06:51 Well, most of like my friends um, were, um, of asian background. A lot of them were Hmong. Um, a lot of them came from different groups and um, and also the schools that they came from. A lot of them came from like intercity like, St. Paul, North Minneapolis where it's dominated by um, people of color or it's- there's more of a mix. Preenon Huq: 07:14 First there's like, where I'm from the suburbs even like, another school in our district was Cooper. That one had more students of color and you would hear like, about how different it was. Um, based on like that, where like a- at the same thing, lot of the IB kids were students that where white, but the regular classes were a lot of students of color. And so, that's wherethat's where the difference really comes and you know, just hearing everybody's story and like, they're just so used to having everybody and a lot of them actually had really different opinions and situations with people who are white. Preenon Huq: 07:49 Where I had the complete opposite, you know. And even like my friends who were of color, they didn't really talk about the things about like, you know, oppression, racism, segregation. I mean you hear it every now and then but you just really didn't feel it until I got to college an then everybody's talking about it, and then you realize like wow, okay, now I see. I'm more open and aware of every- all of that. Sydney Baker: 08:15 Mm-hmm (Affirmative). Did you ever have your friends over, to your house in high school? Preenon Huq: 08:18 Yeah, but not- not often. You know, my m- my mom was like, she didn't really like having friends over. Not like that- it was because of like, that they're white or anything like that, they just- she just preferred not to. So usually I would like, go to their houses. Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 4 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Sydney Baker: 08:33 Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were some of their reactions when they would come over for the first time? Preenon Huq: 08:37 Um. I think a lot of them, were just- like it was different, my- my house smells different, you know. The food smells different so, I think that was pretty surprising. Also like, just like the artwork in my house, like I was showing you, my mom's got like a lot of art um, my mom's like an artist and so she's got like a lot of paintings and um, just like her taste too is- is very different from, it's not quite the same as like when you open up a magazine and you're look- you're like looking and what's trends are in 2018, 2019. It's very unique to her personality and if you go in to a lot of people who are like also muslim like, people who are Arab, um Somale, African, and then people from Asia, like a lot of their houses will look similar to our house. Sydney Baker: 09:21 Did you have any muslim friends? Preenon Huq: 09:23 Um. Honestly, at college, or I mean at high school no I don't think so. I have like- trying to think maybe one or two. But not really. I mean every now and then I would see like another student at my high school at the mosque and then I'd be like, "Oh okay As-Salam-u-Alaikum" like I didn't even know that they're family was muslim. So that was kinda cool but in terms of like, talking about being muslim and stuff, no. I definitely did not have that. Sydney Baker: 09:55 Was that a conversation that you would have with people when you first met them? Preenon Huq: 09:58 Uh, no (laughing). That's definitely not something you just bring up. Now that I'm like older yes for sure, like it's so much easier to talk about it and stuff. But after like post 9/11 like that's definitely something you did not wanna talk about. Students that- they don't really know what's going on or what they arethey've affiliated Islam with terrorism and you just don't wanna like, bring that up in those situations and stuff. Which is unfortunate right? Like I mean, nobody should have to go through that and, everybody should be able to express their religion freely. So that- that's kinda disappointing you know I wish that- that's something that I was able to do is, you know, talk about my cultures and talk about like um, my religion and be kinda more proud of like the religion that I am. I think that, you know, 9/11 really robbed me personally of that um, from like, from- when I was growing up. Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 5 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Sydney Baker: 10:47 Did you ever have any like specific bad experiences in high school, when people found out that you were muslim? Preenon Huq: 10:53 Um, I mean like, every- I mean people have kinda joked about like terrorism and- and Islam and stuff and like that you just kinda like have to tell them like, "Oh you know that's- that's unacceptable" or you know like, "Hey it's not like that" you know. And that's hard because, you know, I think that they realize it but then you know, at the same time they've known you for a while so then they think it's okay. Most of the time that I've ever had that conversation, I mean I had that conversation a couple years ago with somebody that I was really close with, and you know, they apologized and they were sorry, you know. They- they didn't realize you know. Preenon Huq: 11:31 I think that a lot of people well they're- they're kinda stuck in their ways right? And so I always give the benefit of the doubt at first. I'm usually a person, I'll let like one slide. But then I kinda let you know and if I- if you do it again then it's kinda like, okay were-were this isn't gonna work for me. And um, I'm sorry but this is you know like- if you're not gonna respect my views and who I am as a person and also my religion, and that's something that's like just- you can't really- you shouldn't be joking about and if you don't understand that after one person tells you, especially somebody so close to you, I think that it's best if were not together you know. Sydney Baker: 12:06 Mm-hmm (affirmative) Preenon Huq: 12:08 Like, I- I mean, that's kinda one thing about me is that, especially growing up in like a white neighborhood, you have toyou have to like educate people and you have to give them the benefit of the doubt. And, that's something that a lot of people don't wanna do and I understand why they don't want to. You know they've had, um, so many situations where white people have gotten away with a lot of things. And I totally agree with that, but then at the same time it's like, I live in this neighborhood, I grew up with these people, I know this is thethis is the life that I'm gonna be living. And so, it's best you know, if I give them the opportunity to learn and grow, especially young people you know. Preenon Huq: 12:46 Like, some people they have no idea what they're talking about you know, they're- they're saying things just because they hear it from the news or somewhere else. Kids and stuff and so then I educate them and I've had mainly positive reactions towards everybody, especially parents too. They're always wanting to Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 6 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. learn more about my culture and my family. Which I like a lot and I appreciate that a lot. And it's nice because you know, in the future, um, they will have a positive- hopefully they'll have a positive experience with other people from my community and my culture as well. Preenon Huq: 13:19 But that's also like a lot of pressure right? You know that'sthat's a lot of weight on your shoulders, you're representing your own community, 24/7 and you're the only person. And that's so hard because people ask me like, "What do you think about Islam and what do you think about you know, this and what does your family do and that", and I'm just like, "My family's not that religious", I shouldn't be the one representing all of Islam for this whole community in Plymouth. And, that's one thing that I've- I've found, you know, really difficult because sure I wanna learn more about Islam and I wanna learn and be able to- to share that with others. But at the same time like, I'mI'm not an expert. I probably will never be an expert so I'm not the person that they should be asking. And that's- and I was telling Esteban last week, that you know, everybody in Islam, you could- somebody who practices, um Islam that's S-SSomali, and then somebody who's from Bangladesh, I mean there could be completely different in terms of their religion. Sydney Baker: 14:17 And so you said that your family is pretty non-traditional? Preenon Huq: 14:22 Yeah, were non-traditional. I would say- I mean, my- our family um, you know, we- we don't pray five times a day, uh, we definitely celebrate Eid which is twice a year, once at the end of Ramadan, my family fasts for Ramadan. We do all of those things. In terms of- I think that's like kind of the big one. My mom doesn't wear a hijab or anything, um so that's- that's you know, that kinda gives you an idea of what our family is like. Sydney Baker: 14:52 Do you think that they moved to this community because they're non-traditional or do you think that they're nontraditional because they moved here? Preenon Huq: 14:59 Uh, no, um. I think moving to the US has like made us nontraditional or a little bit more. I don't think my parents really- uh maybe my mom did, but I really don't think that neither of them really grew up in that traditional uh, very strict Islamic um, religion. And I think that makes a huge difference and then also like living in this community, I wouldn't say that, that's made much of a difference, because I see all the other uh, Bangali kids and their families also grew up also in white neighborhoods. It's actually very common for all the Bangali kids to live in suburban Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 7 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. white neighborhoods like all of us growing up we all lived in similar neighborhoods. Um, which is really interesting as well. Sydney Baker: 15:43 Why is that? Preenon Huq: 15:44 I think a school, you know education's number one, super important. Um, my dad- originally we lived in Crystal, my sister went to New Hope Elementary and uh, one of the students called the teacher a really bad name and my sister went home and told my dad what happened and he like moved her out of that school, and put her in private school. So she- she actually went to a Christian school, a Catholic school. I went to a catholic school for a year- two years, but I think my sister went for four and my other sister went for almost six or seven. So- (laughing) that was a really big change for us you know, going to a catholic school, private school. Um, and then we eventually moved over to Plymouth, where the school districts are really well- are good. So we could go to the public schools. Sydney Baker: 16:36 What was your experience like at the Catholic school? Preenon Huq: 16:38 Well you just really don't realize what's like happening right? Like, I mean I don't really- like I remember getting like, the cross, um and then we'd have like, the beads. And I don't- I can't even remember what that was for really, during prayer time. Um, and then my neighbors across the street, they're really religious catholic. Um, and I would go over there all the time for dinner and we'd pray before dinner. And I would just pray the same way as them. So, just in a way like I felt like- and then, a lot of my friends, they took me to church growing up. So I felt like I was so like- almost growing up like Christian in a sense but obviously not fully growing up with Christian. I just learned a lot about like um, being Christian from those different situations that I had in life and events. Sydney Baker: 17:26 So you used to live in England too? Preenon Huq: 17:28 Uh, well I like, was born there, moved here when I was like one. So I've been here my whole life. And then we go back and visit pretty frequently. Usually try to go once a year um, once every two years. Sydney Baker: 17:41 How does it compare to Minnesota? Preenon Huq: 17:43 Oh, it's so different (laughing). It's just like big city. Kinda like New York. Public transportation and people are focused on themselves, moving really fast. Um, so much to do like lots of Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 8 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. um, fun things. The Isla- Islamic community's huge there. Um, lots of people who are Indian and Bangladeshi. So that's nice as well. Sydney Baker: 18:04 Would you say that it's more diverse there than it is here? Preenon Huq: 18:07 Absolutely, for sure. Um. If you're comparing like New York to uh, London, then th- i would say probably New York's kinda momore diverse. But it's hard to say, I mean London is so diverse these days. It's completely changed over the last, you know, 20 years. And here like, it's- it's gotten a lot better like, my sister she's nine and I can just tell by the names of all the students that are in the class, like, how diverse it is you know. It's not like 'John' and- and 'Megan' and 'Marissa' that are in here class like it's- it's all these different names that are very unique, of all different backgrounds. And a lot of her friends are from different backgrounds and we see them like- which I think is so cool you know. Just 'cause, that definitely wasn't the case when I was growing up. Sydney Baker: 18:58 Did you ever bring any of your friends to the mosque with you? Preenon Huq: 19:02 Uh yeah, I brought a couple of friends here and there. Um, even one of my co-workers last year, he was about the same age as me. He actually fasted for Ramadan. So that was really cool and he was Jewish and so that was really interesting you know because, obviously with like all like the things that go on it's- it's crazy that around the world there's so much conflict, and then you know, in the US like, you s- you see like muslims and Jewish people you know, fasting together for Ramadan. Just completely different, you know. Preenon Huq: 19:31 And, I have brought a couple of friends to the mosque. I've brought a couple friends like Bengali parties and um, brought them to events and stuff and they- they enjoyed- it's definitely a different um- it's something that they would never get, you know else where like- recently one of my best friends, my room mate from college came to Bangladesh with me. So that was pretty amazing I mean, you know, he's a 6'4", white, American and in a country that the average height is 5'6". And no one, who's not from there goes and visits that country. So that was like super cool I mean he stood out like crazy. But he had a great time. Sydney Baker: 20:09 Where's home for you? Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 9 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Preenon Huq: 20:10 Uh, Minnesota for sure. You know this feels like home. I know like, Plymouth, Minnesota specifically. Like I know so many people here, my friends, my family, the community members. You know, being involved with school makes me even more connected. Um, this is definitely my home. I- I don't think I ever go anywhere without seeing somebody I know and I actually love that you know, it's just nice to always know that there's somebody there that you know. Sydney Baker: 20:50 Could you reflect on a time that you may have felt discriminated against for being muslim? Preenon Huq: 20:59 Um... definitely like post 9/11. You know like telling kids at school that I was like muslim you know not knowing like- that like it was like muslims. But I wouldn't even call them muslims that- that did the terrorist attack that represented and said that they were muslims and then like everything with the Iraq war and stuff. I don't remember like specifically, I just remember going to school and telling kids like, "Oh yeah, I'm muslim" and they'd be like, "Are you a terrorist?" You know and just kinda giving me like- like, "No, no I'm not". Preenon Huq: 21:35 And it's just hard to understand why they would like, think that way. Or why they would affiliate those two just because, you know there's so much terrorism n- not too long ago, with like KKK members and they represent- they say that they represent Christianity but nobody says like, "Oh yeah like KKK and Christiani- or Christians are terrorists". You know, they don't ever put those two together. So it's hard for me to understand you know, why are you saying that muslims and terrorism go together. And you know, that's the thing is that religion doesn't and terrorism doesn't go together. So, that was really hard growing up. And then I just stopped telling kids that I was muslim. Sydney Baker: 22:16 What are some positive experiences that you had? Preenon Huq: 22:24 Um. I just think like, I- I don't really know like specifically in the sense of like, situations where I'm- like the one- two years ago when my co-worker, wanted to like spend- you know, participate in Ramadan. That was super big and that was awesome. I don't really like, blame people from my high school that didn't participate because I didn't really share that I was muslim. Preenon Huq: 22:49 I mean, even my best friend from like, seventh grade I remember- I think we were like in eleventh grade in the Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 10 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. summer and I was like, uh- we were trying to find something to eat and I was like, "Do you got anything?" And he's like, "Yeah we have pizza rolls", and I was like, "Oh what kinda are they?" And he's like, "Pepperoni", and I was like "Oh I can't eat those", and he's like, "You can't even taste the pepperoni- barely you can taste it", and I was like, "Well I don't eat- I don't eat pepperoni because I don't like it, it's because I'm muslim and I can't ". And he was like, "What?". So like, I don't know if he forgot or if he just didn't know. Preenon Huq: 23:22 But it was like, you know, a big moment and kind of a shock because we- and then- and then he remembered you know, like, "Oh okay". And so, he was like, "Oh I just always thought you didn't like pepperoni", 'cause he'd always see me like take the pepperoni off- his parents like ordered Jet's Pizza every two weeks. And so all the time I was over there, id always like take it off and stuff. So that's probably why he kinda thought that I just didn't like it. Sydney Baker: 23:47 Did his parents know that you were muslim? Preenon Huq: 23:49 I don't know honestly I can't- I'm not sure if they did or not. That's like another thing you know, a lot of like muslims, I mean like, the- the level of pork is huge and you'll see that like there's people who will not touch pork. Um, not my boss now but my previous boss was muslim and he wouldn't touch alcohol. I mean if he- it doesn't matter if it's a- in the bottle, if it's in the case, you try to hand him a bottle he will not touch it. Same thing with pork. When he's at the grocery store he won't you know, touch it, nothing. Preenon Huq: 24:17 Uh, then there's people you know like, they open up a pizza, they'll see it's pork, they'll shut it and they'll be like "Okay, I'm not having any". And then there's like me, who I'm just like, I feel like that's gonna go to waste, you know, whoever ordered it didn't realize that I- you know, didn't ask ahead of time and as long as it's not like baked into the cheese where like to the point where I can't get it out, I will always like just take it off, and eat the pizza. And that's definitely very different from other people. And I just do that because like, I don't wanna waste it, you know but if the choice comes, I'll just tell them, like "Oh, no I- you know, can you order a cheese pizza for me?". And, that's usually how it goes. And nobody like makes me pay extra or anything you know, to order my own pizza. I always offer to buy it you know cos, they have to order a whole 'nother pizza usually for me. Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 11 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Sydney Baker: 25:16 So what do you like more about living in Minnesota, than you do about living in England? [crosstalk 00:25:22] Or are you just spending time in England? Preenon Huq: 25:23 I just like how small it is in- in Minnesota like, no matter where you are, it's- it's kinda like Augsburg. Like, in versus going to the [inaudible 00:25:33] you know you can go to the [inaudible 00:25:35] and you can do a lot of stuff and there's a lot of opportunity and you can make a big change and everything. But, it's hard to like, get known on campus, it's hard to like, make a difference, it's hard to like, get the resources that you want. Um, where like, in Augsburg you know, if you try really hard, you can become known on campus, you can work with others. There is- they're smaller but they- they do make a huge impact and I just feel like that's how Minnesota is versus London right. Preenon Huq: 25:58 If I work really hard in Minnesota, I feel like anything is possible. It's small enough where I can get connected in different communities. Everybody kinda knows everybody in a sense um, from their hometown and stuff and that's just not the case in London. London's way too big. And so like, you can kind of like the express- the expression is like, you can be like a shark in a pond or you can be like, you know, a fish in the ocean like- and I just rather be like, well known and well connected and have opportunity for myself and others as well and, it's kinda cool 'cause like, anything I put my mind to I feel like, there's a way I know somebody connected well that I can make an impact in a small or big community if I want to. Just like it- it's very endless, the opportunities. Sydney Baker: 26:45 Do you have family in England? Preenon Huq: 26:46 Yeah, like all my dad's uh, side lives there, my cousins live there. Um, and their kids and everything so yeah, there is a lot of people there. Sydney Baker: 26:54 Why England? Preenon Huq: 26:56 Um, my grandpa was part of the Bangladesh Embassy I think it was, and then he moved there and then obviously took my dad and all of his siblings to England. And then my dad uh, lived there ever since he was eight. And then, lived there up until he was about- I think he was about 30 or 35 or 36. So almost 30 years. Sydney Baker: 27:20 And so then why did he choose to come to Minnesota? Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 12 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. Preenon Huq: 27:23 Job opportunities. I think that my mom and him visited um, the US a few times and it just you know, they wanted to see like, the land of opportunity and just kinda see what it was like and they end up moving here and my dad was doing consulting so he was all over the country. And then um, they just happened to stop in Minnesota for a little bit. And then the plan was to move somewhere else but then they ended up like, staying in Minnesota all of a sudden enrolled in school and then, we've been here ever since. Sydney Baker: 27:50 Did they meet in England? Preenon Huq: 27:51 Uh my parents had an arranged marriage so like, I think my dad went to Bangladesh and then like, met my mom. And I think like it was like my mom's- my dad's cousin um, knew my mom's brother's wife. Like something like that. And so they met like one time and then they got married. So very different. Sydney Baker: 28:16 Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. We've already talked about which place you prefer, um... I guess one big question that I have, and this can be in your own words but, what does being a muslim in Minnesota mean to you, personally? Preenon Huq: 28:43 Um. It's- It's... that's a hard question (laughing) you know 'cause, it's so different and especially like for somebody who is not very religious. That's something that I would like to do is get more involved with like the community and like the mosque. Um, there's one mosque in Plymouth and there's like all these different mosque's all over the- the Twin Cities and I was actually recently saying to somebody else like, we should have only one or two mosque's or maybe three at most, in the different corners of the state of Minnesota. And they should be like, really nice and big and just reflect like our culture and what we represent and stuff. Preenon Huq: 29:20 Because, the mosque in Plymouth was like an old post office that was converted into a mosque and it looks okay. And like a lot of the- a lot of the other mosque's are kinda like that, they're converted um, old buildings and I just think that we- we can do better in a sense. You know, we can make it a community space, we can add a gym, we could make it a place where like, anybody in the community you know, whether you're muslim or not muslim but like almost more like a community center and then also have the mosque connected. I think that would be like, kinda my overall goal or what I would like to see. Um, obviously that's like just way down the road that's gonna take a lot of Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 13 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. effort. I mean, but like, one day that's what's something I would love to do and see myself doing. Preenon Huq: 30:05 But for the time being, you know, just participating in like Ramadan um, like, if- I haven't read the Quran. That's something that I wanna do. If like, one of- somebody else like some of my Bengali friends or something wanna like, do that I would definitely be open to doing that. Um, maybe like, little bit later down the road 'cause I think that's another thing that a lotyou'll realize that a lot of muslims become more religious as they get older. Especially the ones that were born in the US, have definitely seen that as they get older, they become more religious and more involved with the community. And so that'sthat's probably where I'll end up as well. Preenon Huq: 30:44 I mean, if I could, I would love to get the fundraising and build a mosque, definitely the way that I would like to see it, you know. I was talking to the- the person I was talking to, he said you know, "That's just not really practical", because peop- muslims pray five times a day and no one wants to drive from you know, if they're living in Coon Rapids they're not gonna drive to Plymouth to go to the mosque. So that's why I was saying that, if we could have three or four different corners of the cities, so then they're still easily accessible, you know, it could definitely be possible. Sydney Baker: 31:16 How do you think the community of Plymouth would react to something like that? Preenon Huq: 31:20 So that's tough. You know that's like another thing that's hard. Like, I think that there was lot of backlash for building that mosque originally in Plymouth. Also like in different areas. Um, I remember they wanted to build a mosque a long time ago near the 9/11 site in New York and you know there's a lot of backlash for that too. But, I think that like, you know, every year get's better, every year's changing, more people are becoming open and I think that you know, just showing the positiv- positivity in the community makes a difference you know. Preenon Huq: 31:52 Offering like 'Welcome all neighbors', 'Welcome everybody' and show that, and do good in the community, whatever needs to be done, helping out, volunteer, and you just- that's the hardest part right? You know, you're going against some- a group and people that don't like you, but that's what you have to do. You have to show them the kindness, and that's the hardest thing. You know, that's one of the things about me that I think a lot of people appreciate. You know, whether you like me or not I'm Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 14 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. gonna be the same person no matter what. And, a lot of people ask me how I do it and it's just like, I really think that, that's how it should be like, I should be putting in like, the good that I wanna see in the world, the change that I wanna see and if that means you know, everyday like, somebody tries to shoot you down and like put- and try to get rid of you that's- that's when you have to push even harder, that's when you have to you know, show them that no matter what you do, I'm gonna be a good person, I'm gonna be this true person I am. Preenon Huq: 32:50 And that's the type of community we're gonna be you know, because that's what a community does. They take care of everybody, whether you're you know, spray painting the mosque, well we'll just repaint it you know. We'll take care of it, we're gonna- that's our community and you're just destroying your own community. But at the end of the day, we're- we're gonna do everything possible that we can to make it a better place. Sydney Baker: 33:13 Well, those are all of the questions that I have for you um, is there anything else that you wanna talk about? Preenon Huq: 33:19 Um. I mean like, one thing that I was kinda like thinking about is, just like also, um... I don't know how to put this like, what my life would be like if I grew up with more muslims in the different communities 'cause I think that a lot of people in like, New York or like Texas where like we know a lot of other Bengali's and stuff, or if all the Bengali's lived in one ar- area, um. Like there's a lot- the Jewish community lives in Hopkins or St. Louis Park, a lot of people know that and I just wonder if that's- that would be better. You know, I wonder if that would be easier to you know, create organization or having a muslim community and then also educating people. Would that work out better? Or is it better for us to be separated? But then it kinda goes back to like, what I was saying earlier about how you're representing your entire community. You know, if you're just in one spot, then maybe you get too comfortable. And that was the thing that I was thinking about with a lot of my friends who are Hmong, when I'm talking to them and like, a lot of them might not have the most positive um, interactions with people who are white. You know, because they're so used to spending time with people who are Hmong and their community and therethere's enough Hmong people where they almost don't have to interact with anybody who is- who is not Hmong. Like they- I mean they can go to the car dealer ships and they can see you know, people that they're Hmong they can go to their favorite stores and everything and find people that are the same. Where Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 15 of 16 This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here. I just don't have that you know, ability. So I really wonder you know, how different would my life be. Same with like the even the Indian community, a lot of them live in Plymouth and Maple Grove. I see a lot of them living um, I see a lot of them at Life Time Fitness, the Hindu temple is in Maple Grove, you know what- what that lifestyle is like, is it easier for their kids to go to school and talk about their religion and talk about where they're from and their background and stuff because there's so many of them. You know they always say that there's like safety in numbers, you know. So that's- that's one thing that I was really interested in, you know, thinking about. Sydney Baker: 35:23 Do you know if your sisters ever struggled in school? Preenon Huq: 35:26 It's hard to say like, that's- my family, we don't really talk about that kinda stuff. We- we just don't like and um, even when we're having problems and stuff that's not the type of family that we are. We don't really communicate with hose things. But I'm sure that they've gone through it or if not worse. You know, because obviously they're older and things have only gotten better. Sydney Baker: 35:51 Perfect. Well thank you so much for being interviewed. Oral History (Completed 04/16/19) Transcript by Rev.com Page 16 of 16
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Roula Alkatout, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 RT All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday. RA Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday is July 14 1990. RT Great, let'...
Show more Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 RT All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday. RA Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday is July 14 1990. RT Great, let's start off by having you tell tell me about yourself. RA Yeah, I'm right now I work at a recycling nonprofit in Minneapolis, educating people about recycling and composting. Before that, I was a case manager. I interned and then Americacorps and then worked at a nonprofit for a total of eight years. So I left that job about a year ago. And yeah, should I go into like family history, or? RT Well, my next question, I guess is, tell me about your family? RA Yeah. So, my family came to the states in 1990. Where they they left Kuwait because of the Gulf War invasion. So they were given the opportunity... Really, it was luck and just chance so when the Gulf War invasion was happening, the only reason why my family got the option to come to the States was... or got the option to leave Kuwait we didn't know that it would be to the States was because one of my brothers was born in Florida. My parents had him so he's a US citizen. So it was a US citizen in a war zone. So we I think, my mom I think we got on the last plane leaving Kuwait before no more people could leave. My parents had 24 hours to decide what to do. So they're given I don't know about the government been notified, like you can leave, but you have to decide within this within 24 hours. And I think, sadly, that's not, that wasn't like a new thing necessarily for my parents to have to do, except for they had four kids, whereas they've escaped war multiple times in their lives. Like collectively, it's been four times between the two of them where they've had to leave their home because of war because of like, safety. So they decided to leave and they also within those 24 hours, had to pack everything that they could so they left everything thinking maybe that they would come back. I don't I don't know if they thought it was like a permanent forever thing. But it was. We couldn't go back. And we ended up - so the first flight was to London. And then the flight was to North Carolina. And right now still, there's a lot of I think there's a lot of immigrants in North Carolina from that, Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 from when that was happening. The only reason why we ended up in Minnesota is that my dad went to school - I think he went to college with somebody who works, worked here. My dad connected with him and the person said, Listen, like, we will like, come here, and I'll like help you out. And so we came here and we have not left. So that was, that's like a major part of like, how its shaped - how my life has been shaped but I can get into a little bit of history with my dad leaving. So he is - we're Palestinian and my dad was seven or eight when the occupation was happening in Palestine, and was forced out. And I think it was '49 when his family had to leave, so he has memory of like being forced out so when I said like, this wasn't his first time experiencing this - It's because in Palestine, they had everything take everything taken away, forced out and ended up in Syria. And my mom has memory of just war. And I don't want to say that, like, it's all terrible and war is... like, it's not like there wasn't joy, but there's so much war that has shaped my parents and led us hear. So my dad's experience in addition to just like our story of immigration, or immigrating here, and like being refugees, but like, we came here, because my brother is a citizen and like this weird, like, refugee immigrant status, but then not having like a country of origin because we're Palestinian was weird. It's still kind of weird. So anyway, my dad ended up in Kuwait because of school and work and my mom moved to Kuwait with her family when she was younger and they met there. And when we came to the States, it was 1990. So I was a baby. Like, I don't I didn't know any. I didn't know any of this. So we got to the States. And my dad was a pharmacist and he couldn't practice because - I know that he took the exam maybe twice here to be able to practice here but I don't know if it was a language barrier. I don't know if it was like not being able to like continue leaving to take the test. I don't know maybe for some reason I have in my mind that he had to go to Chicago to take this exam. But that could be just something I have mixed up but regardless, he couldn't he couldn't become a pharmacist here. I'll - even though he had years of school he was a practicing pharmacist, so that's just like another thing that they had to leave behind. You know, like a piece of your identity, like all of your identity, you know, what you worked for. So, we were really lucky where we met people who... I don't know how we met them, but they were involved in our lives forever. Like the woman who was - like helped us with like getting coats and like pots and pans and like getting us settled and like putting my brothers into Title One classes to make sure that they're able to like, have assistance with learning English and reading English. There were those people there like, we had such a lucky situation, because like, we had connection, and then I don't, I don't know how we met this family. But we had like, support forever. We've always been surrounded by really supportive people. And it was important back then, because it's like, my parents world got turned upside down. They had four kids under, like, I don't know, probably under 15. And one was an infant, which is me. And it's like, you're in Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 this entirely new world, unexpectedly. So we got a lot of support from people. Like when we when we came. So, we lived in an apartment and my parents both worked pretty like odd jobs... factory work and my dad owned a corner store in St. Paul called Craig's Country Boy. And his name - people used to call him Ernie and his name is Awny and that always we still laugh about it today - that people would call him Ernie. I know it's like classic - I don't even know if you would like, like, tell them that wasn't this name is like, Okay, this is what it is. Yeah, and eventually, my mom got a position as a teacher. Doing... right now she's a special ed para. But back then she had like, various roles and para professional, like, as a para professional. And my brothers and I, I mean, we like assimilated. And I guess I'll only talk like speak for myself. But I think growing up - we grew up in Anoka, which is like, pretty white, pretty Christian more than - I mean, I would say Christian and then white. It's like, you know where people's values are. Um, so, yeah, I'm just like, Can I go into like, growing up in Anoka? RT Yeah, please. RA . . . being a Muslim... Should I reel it in? RT You're right on track. RA I so went to school, and I did not know of really any other Muslims, except for like, one or two families, but was never really connected with them, just for whatever reason. But I think like, as I got, as I was older, I realized all of the, like, terrible things that I experienced, but I didn't even realize we're terrible just because there was nothing to like, red, like, show me red flag, I guess. Um, so yet, I really tried. And is is like, something I regret so much as like, I like lost the language so fast. I spoke Arabic. Like, I mean it's, my parents still speak it, my dad almost exclusively speaks in Arabic. My mom, I mean, they're both still fluent. My older brothers are like, like, they, they can talk and like, understand, and I lost a lot of it. And it really was, like, I'm just trying to fit in, I'm just trying to like survive in Anoka. Like, where you know that you're different, There are different, like, it's, you just know, you're different. So I think I just tried super hard to, like, blend in. Not that I ever denied that I was Muslim, ever. Um, but it was just like, you just try to get by and like to have as much of a normal life because you've had these, like, your parents have had these traumatic experiences, and like your siblings remember things of was? Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 So yeah, it's just like, your, it's just so hard to find the spot to be content with both these lives, like when you're young, and, you know, you're like families trying to, like, keep this, like, keep the language alive, keep the culture alive. But at the same time, you're like going to school and you're trying to just like, be like other people. And just like be... normal, but normal didn't have, it shouldn't have been that I needed to sacrifice one thing for the other. That was, I mean, maybe it's because of the time that we were, like, my age of like, oh, like in the 90s, or in the early 2000s. Like, that's just the way it was people weren't as like, open or, like, willing to hear you out. I would say, I'd say that it's still a problem. Like, I mean, of course, it's still a problem. But I'm just looking back at it. Like all I wanted us to just like have a normal life. And not to say my parents didn't provide because they, I mean, I think five years after we came to the States, they bought a house. Like, they truly like, hustled and like, did everything they could to, like never make us feel like we were like in a crisis. Like they did everything they could to provide for their kids. And they did I mean, they have four grown kids that are like, healthy and have careers and like, it's truly like the ideal story of a family coming here. Yeah, but it is like we had a lot of - we were lucky with who we knew. So I digress but... RT Yeah, cool. I want to ask you, what was the attitude towards religion in your house growing up? RA It was... like, very, there like, religion was important to my family. I remember we would do, like, Qur'anic studies with other Muslim families. All of my siblings and I, at one point, were in Sunday School for Islamic Studies and for the language. I mean, still now my dad is like, you know, reciting things from the Qur’an, or like talking religion but I mean, when I was younger, it was like, You hang on to that, that's like, we're not in the Middle East. We're not in like, this isn't where we're from. We're here, but we do have our religion. So we're going to, like, hold that and practice it and be proud of who we are and where we're from. And I'm really thankful for that. Like, I love being proud of my heritage, and the religion and like, where I come from - being a Palestinian, even though I've never been. Like, and I think that's to do with them of like, no, you're going to - just this is how it is, you know, not that we're all like, super religious, or we all have our different like, spectrums, or, like levels of belief, or whatever. But... RT You do have different levels of belief with your family? RA Yeah, I mean, I think like... Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 RT ...Was it always like that? RA I don't think so. I think when you grow up, in general, you start to just like form your own ideas... or not ideas, but like, you have more space to like, Think for yourself. And I think that now, it's so much about - in my eyes, it's like keeping the culture alive. Like the practice of, like, celebrating, I mean, that's like a tradition. And that's a very important thing to our family. So you, you take the day off, you go to prayer with your family, and you have a super big meal. And you celebrate, like the end of Ramadan, like, those things are so like, embedded in my family. And like, I think they're - my mom especially is so good at like, we are going to engage your nieces and nephews, we're going to, like, make this fun and make make this... like, you know, my nephew, just the other day was like, I love Easter because of the Easter egg hunt. It's like, oh, cause my two of my brothers married, like, white people that are from here. And like, they converted. So they're raising their kids Muslim, but like, they have family, like their family members are Christian, whatever. So I was like, wow, like, how do we make Ramadan... like, like, engaging? or whatever... So it's like, let's do like a lantern hug- hunt, or whatever. So it's like, how do we keep it important? Like, how do we keep the tradition and the culture alive? Because you don't want it to be lost over time. Because it's such a beautiful thing. Like, how do you keep... How do you keep young people engaged? Like, what do you teach them? What do you show them? What do you want them to carry with them that's positive to share with the world to like, stop looking at you in such a negative way. My mom hosted - my older brother has a couple buddies that she hosted for the Fourth of July. And she made this like super Palestinian meal, like our favorite meal, we had it like a barbecue outside, and it was super nice. And she had like American flag paper plates and napkins. And we were like, Mom, like, Why are you like doing this? Like, why you like being like this? And she said, like, I want, I want people to know that we're just like them. And that was like, I understood her so much... in that moment of we're just like you, we like the same things. We can celebrate the Fourth of July, there's no difference. And I take - what I take from it is like... these people who... one couple who brought their kids, like they're going to like, their kids will remember us, ideally. And instead of like listening to what people say on the news of like stereotypes of Arabs or Muslims, they like have a person to associate that like positive, that positive experience with and say like, Well, no, just because this person's Muslim doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean that they're terrorists, because some people really think that and that's because their parents teach.. teach them or the classroom teachers it or whatever. So it's like, you keep your culture. And sometimes it's like, not even the religion, but like, the culture is so important. And it's a beautiful thing. And it like makes you want to like, hold it Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 tighter, the more negative thing like the more than negative things happen. And oddly, like it's a protective thing. Like... Yes. Yeah, you just want to protect it because it was beautiful, like you you think of all these, like family gatherings, and like the music and the laughter and the language, and the people associated, it's like, it's beautiful. You don't want to lose that. And you want people to know that it's, you're just like them just from a different place. RT So then that's kind of like, you know, that's your, your, your parents keeping their culture alive in their home. And then as we like, get more into the conversation about school and kind of bumping up against like, you know, American culture. RA Yeah. RT How was school? What was the attitude towards school and in your home? Like, with your parents? RA Yeah. I mean, it was, like, you're going to school, and you're going to do well. I think a lot of parents, but like, think that way they want their kids to do well, but I, for my parents, it was like, you're going to do well, you're going to go beyond, like, ideally, you're not going to stop at college, you're going to go beyond, like you're going to go to grad school, you're going to be a doctor or a whatever. Like it was school first, above anything, because that was like the foundation of your life is going to be like your success in school is going to take you places. And I think... there was no question about me going to college. And, like, knowing that they my parents did what, whatever they could to be able to let me go to college and to be able to take, like a financial burden off of me, because it's education is like, everything. It really is everything. And especially to my dad, because he did - He went through so much school. And he went to school in a time where you like had to hand draw your like, plants that you're growing like, I don't know, he's a pharmacist so like, the beautiful plants that you had to hand draw that you were studying, you didn't have a graph for you didn't have a thing like a projector or whatever. So it's like to him, you go to school, you maybe run into issues with like, ignorant people. And if you ever need - if they ever needed to intervene on something they would, but they knew... I think especially after September 11th happened, they knew that like, it wasn't always going to be easy for us even more. But I can't ever remember a time where they just like, brush school aside or your education aside. It's just, it wasn't a question. I'm so thankful for it. Like, I've never just like miss school all the time. Thankfully, I had a mom who could drive me to school if I ever needed to. I took the bus or whatever. But it was never a question that I was like, not going to do well in school. It Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 wasn't like a toxic environment at all. But I was like, No, like, I'm going to go to school, and I'm gonna, like, try hard. And like have hiccups. But still, like, take it seriously. RT Sounds like you're very supported in that endeavor. RA Oh, totally. Absolutely. RT And then so in the school, what were your friendships like? Like, who did you associate with? What did you do for fun with your friends? RA Yeah, I, I had a best friend who I hung out with all the time. And a few other friends where we were just like, talk between classes all the time. And on weekends, I was not allowed to go to football games. That was like the big thing in Anoka, and probably everywhere in high school. But just because it's like not a normal thing in like, you don't go to like a football game. This is not a thing back home. Or like it's not a normal thing. And also like very, like, strict parents too like they're only daughter doing random foot- what's a football game? No, you're not going. RT They have futball, like soccer... RA They have soccer. But it's also like with other Muslims and like met with all these other variables that you can't control or you have no idea what it's like, like, my dad is older. So to him, it's like, no, like, you're not doing that you're not going to prom. Like what is - no, like? Absolutely not. So it was a lot of like, I could not do a lot of what my friends did in high school. Because my dad was strict. And because of was just like not as... it just simply wasn't a thing that you did...So... RT How was that? RA Oh, it was terrible. It was awful. It was awful! Because I didn't I mean, I still don't understand. I don't think that that's like a good way to protect a kid. I think. Luckily, I like stayed out of dangerous situations when I moved out because I think so a lot of people are like, okay, whatever I'm like, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want to and I'm just gonna, like, be reckless. Thankfully, that didn't happen to me. But I think like it totally could have it happens to people all the time. I don't think it was I don't think that's a healthy thing. I think they wanted me to be safe and they wanted me to be healthy and have a safe home. But I also think like, there if there comes a point where you have to like give a little and say okay, we're not like this isn't Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 Kuwait, this isn't Syria, it's not Jordan, we have to like recognize that this is a norm and just because you're doing this thing that maybe you never did like a parent never did when they were younger. It doesn't mean that this your kid's gonna lose everything about culture just because they're going to like a football game. But yeah, other than that we would like meet on weekends like weekdays just do or weekend days, my friends and I would just like do stupid stuff like go to BestBuy and they had those like new Mac Book photo booth photos... we would do stupid stuff like that. There's not much to do in Anoka... just go to the BestBuy, go to Subway. Yeah, and like hanging out at people's houses. This friend one of my best friends there from high school that I don't have any contact with anymore. Because she was also... she is evangelical Christian, like later I realize like, the intent a lot of times it's like trying to get get me to convert, which was like a very sad thing to realize... RT In high school? RA Yeah, in high school. And like would like weirdly say like super disrespectful things about the religion - about my religion versus hers. So that was like a weird thing to just like, have this friend for so long. And then finally be like, oh, like she's kind of terrible to me. But that's again, like when you get out of it. And you're like, Oh, that's not normal to like, be told that your belief is bad. Because even though I'm Muslim, I am like, Who am I to say anybody else is wrong for what they believe? That's but that's the type of person I am. Doesn't matter to me what you believe or don't believe it's like, we're all on the playing fields. Like if you're a good person, that's great. Like, we can coexist together. So yeah. RT Did that come to a head in high school or after high school? RA I think there was one time that has really stuck with me that I think is like shaped, like shaped the way we just kind of drifted apart... it was, Eid... So after Ramadan, it happened like the most joyous, like, exciting day. And I think we were talking on the phone, because I didn't go to school that day, because you get off school because it's celebration. And she had said, I don't even know why it came up. But she had said, I just want you to know, like, I don't think what you're doing is right, talking with like, celebrating, like believing in the Prophet Mohammed. Or maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like she had said, like, I don't think what you're doing is right. And maybe even said that I like thought I was going to hell - that could be me fogging it with a teacher that didn't have a good conversation with. But regardless, that really like, was so hurtful Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 for someone to say that on like, such a such a special day, where I was always like, super open to, like hearing about her religion. And like even I don't even think my parents knew that I did this because they would probably back then would have like, had a meltdown. But I would go to the like, Christian group thing at high school in high school, where the like, Sure, I'll like go to this thing with you. But then later realizing like what the hell like, Oh, no, like, this is just kind of all like a ploy. It was weird. After she had said that, to me, it was really hurtful. And I kind of was just like, what, like, that's not how a friend should be. And I never thought that about her, or the religion. I just never was like, you're wrong. And you're a bad person for what you believe. And then after high school, she had gone to like a very Christian College. So I think after that was just like a natural... like, oh, I realized you really weren't a good friend. Like, super funny. Her family was like really welcoming and lovely. But then they're... like, the negatives just outweighed the positives, just because I realized even if you're you like young, and you say dumb stuff, so still, like very hurtful. And like, she knew what she was saying, because it was like, so specific to you know, you're wrong for what you believe. And that's sadly like, what their church taught them. So...Yeah... RT You talked earlier about like, wanting to fit in when you were young? Like younger? Like I was imagine, like elementary age. Did that carry through through high school? Did you feel assimilated, or whatever it was, by the time you were in high school? RA I did. I - people still knew that I was Muslim, mostly I mean, it was people that I had, like, known, you know, all throughout Elementary, early middle school, high school. So people knew but it was... it was not something I like, talked about all the time, not out of shame. But just to like, make it through to like, not be "othered". Because I think it's super easy in high school to be "othered" if there's like anything different with you, and I'm lucky- I mean, I, I had the idea of like, okay, like, I can like do everything you all can. Like I can talk about the same things, I can have same, like similar experiences with you just because like... Just because I have a family that has a different religion, or I believe in something else that's like, outside of the norm doesn't mean I have to be so different from you. And like I was craving that like, acceptance. I don't think I ever got it. Or maybe I like from some people I did, but like, from... teachers, like, there's an awful experience of like, you... my teacher joked about how - a few there were a few comments that he made. But like one of them was... I think we were like joking about something. And he was like, well, you're going to hell... But.. not.. I said something about religion, but like was like well you're going to hell and I know what it's for. And it was like, very like, explicit. Like, it was like a joke... A "joke", quote, you know, like, Ha Ha jokey, but like, that was a very loaded joke. And like, talking about that to somebody in college, I realized, like... Oh, that was like, very racist... very inappropriate to say to a student. And like, even if you didn't mean it.. I don't even think he didn't mean it. Because why would you say that? Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 And then another one was, like somebody joked about... this makes me so sad... But joked about... like, said something about me being Muslim, and then was like "bomb squad!" And then like, we like joked about it... Because I was like, okay, it's like a joke... But, yeah, it's just terrible. It's like, you're trying really hard to assimilate into just like, be there. But you're also like hanging on to your, like, your religion so like clearly it was like, I guess it was clear that I was Muslim. And like that I was not shy about it. I probably wear a necklace that said God and Arabic, I'm sure I did, because I wore it all the time. But it wasn't like, I didn't like talk about religion all the time. Because that's just never, ever what I was like, and it's never like, I still am not like that. But it was clear that I was different. Like you people just love to hang on to that in school, especially like, you just love to, like, focus on that thing that makes you different. I don't know if it's different now... As people... like, I mean, I can't say that Anoka has changed in that way. Like... I don't even know if that teacher is still a teacher, probably is... But yeah, you just like, it wasn't like a shitty time, like every day, but it was still like, there's clearly these things I like, hung on to years after college, or I'm sorry, years after high school, because it's like, you don't realize that stuff. Maybe it's because I just didn't want to and then when I was around people who - to actually say to me, like that wasn't okay. Like you shouldn't have like, why did that person make you watch Passion of the Christ? That's not okay. Like, that's weird to do. Like, it's not until you have people outside of that, that say that, that makes you think critically is like, oh, like, high school was kind of just about being Muslim, but then being okay with people making jokes, and then being scared when something like 911 happened or other attacks by Muslims or the war, like, hoping that like you're not targeted for something, because of who you are. Because of what people who claim to be Muslim do. It's like, a tricky balance to like, have normalcy. And then, like, still be thinking about all that stuff. Oh like... people hate where I'm from, like the reality like knowing like, oh, people really hate where I'm from, and kind of trying to be like an ambassador to be like, not all people are like this, like, not all Muslims, like, hate America, not all Muslims are going to like, bomb somewhere. And that was like, the reality is like the closed mindedness there in schools, like you actually had to try to say that. And I had a friend who told me like, honestly, if I had never known you, I would just like, think everything on the news was true about like, what I hear about you. And I think that's still the case for some people in some areas, but it's like, Okay, I guess like, if I got that one person, maybe they're, it's kind of like what my mom did for that dinner. It's like, oh, like, maybe they'll hang on to that. Yeah, like, oh, not every, not every not every Muslim is gonna like, not every Muslim hates America, and not every Muslims like out to kill people. RT Yeah. And hopefully, or I like to think too is like, you know, you only know a tiny fraction of the people that you did that for, you know, how many people just knew you and just by that virtue if Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 you weren't even good friends with them was like, oh, maybe this is okay. Or at least at least gives them the idea... RA Yeah. Yeah! Yeah! It's plants, plants a seed... Yeah. And I mean, there are some friends from high school, one in particular, that I'm still really close with. And we've even talked about that stuff, like high school is weird. And like these weird things happened. Like, that's not normal... or like that super Christian person... Like, she was kind of mean, and like reflecting like, as adults, of how... l I don't know what the word is, but how isolating it can be. It's just, it can be such an isolating experience. If you have teachers that are saying, like, really inappropriate things, or you're not surrounded by people that are like, look like you. But I don't think that - I mean, I pass as white. So there's like some people that can tell like, oh, like, you're not white or like you're... some people think I'm like, Hispanic or, or Spanish. So it's like, oh, you're not you're not from here. But most of the time, I could, I could just pass. So it's like, knowing that I have the passing privilege, but also knowing that like, they are not like me, like, I don't see anybody that looks like me in my school. It does shape who you are. Kind of like what we were talking about earlier. Like you don't you can see yourself fitting into a place if you see others that look like you. But until you do that, you're going to feel kind of like you don't belong, or, like you don't fit in. Which is weird. Cause, yeah, high school wasnt awful, but it's just like these things shaped who you become and like how you look at, like, what you would want to do for your kids and like, what you would want to teach other kids of, like, inclusivity , and like, being equitable and like fair and kind. Yeah. RT I did want to ask about dating in high school... And if that was a possibility for you? or something that you did? RA No, absolutely not. RT ...yeah if you couldn't go to football games... RA No, absolutely. I think that's a great question. Because it's such a normal thing. Like in American culture to, like, have boyfriends or to like, go on dates... Yeah, prom is this huge thing... That was not... Not the case for me. But it's also I think it's two things. It's that, like, culturally, you just don't date around. Like, that's not a, like an Arab Middle Eastern thing. It's, you don't do that. And that was my first point is like, it's not a thing to do. Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 And second, my - no - I'm the only girl, youngest daughter. It was like, the idea would cross my mind. But there's no way that it would have happened. You know, it's like, yeah, I didn't, there was no like option for it, I think. Because you don't like go on dates. You don't have a boyfriend. Like the idea is... It's not a thing that exists. Maybe it's like, also like, my dad, where he came from and his upbringing too... like, much more conservative. And just that's not in his realm of thinking even now. It's like, what? like, dating is just yeah, so it was a no go. RT Yeah. And maybe you relate to this, maybe not... but what role - you mentioned, like being the only daughter. And so I'm wondering, what role did gender play? Either at school or at home? If there was like, a different experience or similar experience? or... RA Yeah, I think gender played a huge role, huge role. Very... like, the family structure was very much like patriarchal. So like, I think I stumbled on that word, but you get it. Of... as the youngest. And as the girl, there's like, not much say, you're gonna like, Listen to what your dad says. So I think like it had everything to do with my upbringing. And that's even those are things I'm still like working on now. If like... Your role is like, as a woman or a man or, like still unpacking all that stuff that I learned as a kid that I'm like, I'm like, working on unlearning now. Of like, oh, like, you can still make your own decision and like, have the right decision, even if, like a man doesn't approve or doesn't agree with you. But when I was younger, that wasn't an option. It was very much like, you're going to listen to what your dad said. And there is no question about it. And I think in school, I probably had the same mindset, because that was what it was like, in - at home. Like, no, you ask your mom, but like your dad usually ultimately has the say, like the end say, like, he's the head of the house. He makes the decisions. So it... Yeah... RT Was there a difference then between you and your brothers? How you and your brothers were treated? RA Yeah, 100% yeah. Oh thats my alarm... sorry. Alright, so yes, the roles, like the treatment between my brothers and I was very clear, my brothers used to be able to go out with their friends. Go to Minneapolis, like do all these things that I was not allowed to do. And when I was eventually allowed to, I could never really go out late. Like, it was so clear, it was a very, like, so, so unfair, based on me being a woman. Yeah... Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 RT So then I'm wondering, to what extent did you accept or challenge that growing up? RA Yeah, I would try to challenge it. But I think it wasn't met with much. You know, I didn't win. The thing I will say that I did... that changed... Or the thing that happened that is not common for women is to... well... I shouldn't say like, generally, but I moved away for college whereas initially I was driving every day. But eventually, I think maybe like two months in I like had a meltdown. Because I was driving so much. It was really stressful. So my dad was like, Yeah, like I see, I see how stressed you, I see how tired you are. So I did end up moving to campus. And I didn't move back home, which was very against cultural norms of like, you should stay, like, keep living at home until you're married. And I have to say, That's still like something that my dad like, is hurt by like to this day. And I think that was my own way to like, take a quick - take hold and take control of that. Like, I am like, a grown up. And just because I'm a woman, like it doesn't mean I can't like do what I want to or live independently. It is challenging, like, even as a 28 year old, being faced with that, like guilt and, like, shame. I mean, there's lots of things with shame and guilt. And it's, it's hard. And I'm, I think it'll be less hard eventually. But knowing that it like, I know I made the right decision, like recognizing you're not a bad person, just because you didn't move back home, you know, but still being like, okay, like, this isn't a normal thing. And it's not going to be a normal thing for my dad. I mean, my mom was like, fine, she's over it, like, whatever, like live your life, but my dad is like, you never moved back home. You know, like, and is really hurt by that. Um, so it still plays a role for sure, like, still right now plays a role, but it's just a matter of now. How am I willing? Like, what am I willing to do to like, take a lead on that and say, like, put it on to my terms instead of somebody else's terms? ...takes a lot of practice, and it's exhausting. Definitely, like, don't have it down. But it is like, I have the tools now to use. You know, I'm older and like, I have more of a say, and I can like, I can explain myself better. But knowing that, like my dad's old, and he's not going to change his mind about a lot of things and coming to terms with that. For a man who like, got his life taken away, like, a few times, and like trying to hang on - like goes back to that like hanging on to where you're from and like, hang on to your religion. And there's only one way to do that to him. Or for him and his eyes. But yeah, I mean, it totally plays a role. In, in it did then and it does now still. RT So you identify with being Muslim and Palestinian. So growing up in school, did you experience those identities as one of the same? Or have you experienced - are there times when you've experienced one without the other? RA Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 Yeah, I think that when I was in school, I really only identified - I just like, yeah, I only had the Muslim part. And I think... now... like learning more, and just like being proud of where you're from, and wanting your culture to stay alive, and like where you're from, is important. And it's where your roots are... In... Yeah, when I was in school, it just wasn't... I don't know - it didn't - it wasn't as important as it is now. Because I think maybe I just have the capacity to be like, I'm Muslim, like, Middle Eastern, not Pakistani, not Indian. You know, like, I'm from the Middle East. And that's how I identified is like, I'm the middle - I'm like, from the Middle East. I think it's still hard - or it was hard then to like, say yeah, and like Muslim, not white, even though I look white. And having to like - that was probably more of like, hey, like, we're not white, my parents are darker than I am. My siblings and I pass as white... I mean in most cases. But there are people who are also passing in that are like way darker in like, you wouldn't call them white. So it's like this weird identity of like, yeah, I'm Muslim. I look like you. But I know there's differences. Now. It's like, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. And I hold those two very close together and tightly think even more. So when, like tragic things happen. Like the New Zealand shooting was like - you hold those things even closer to you, to protect them and to like, share positivity, like positive stories, or just give people different outlook. So yeah. RT So you said youre Palestinian Muslim? Does American fit somewhere? Like where, you know, where does it fit in that? RA Honestly, I wish it didn't have such a big place between the three. But it just does. Because I've been here, this is all I know. So like, I'm an American... for so many reasons. And like in so many ways. And I also am trying to find ways to like incorporate my Palestinian identity and honestly try to put it above American. But it's not - it doesn't happen that way. Because it's not surrounded by Palestinians all the time as I'm surrounded by Americans. And like, it's, yeah, I am proud that I like have my Palestinian identity. And I'm like, very proud to be a Palestinian I... Like... it's so close to my heart. I'm like, Yeah, like an American, but I don't see in... as I don't see it in the same way at all, as I see, being a Palestinian. Being a Palestinian, in my heart comes first. Because I truly feel like there are roots and like, there's history to that. And it's special. And I think part of like, part of the reason is like the story of my dad losing his home, like that passes on to your kids. And like, I think my parents have done a beautiful job of sharing our like story of coming here. So I just hold those things so tight. And so it's like the Americanness is embedded. But I hold being Palestinian higher then I hold being an American. Not saying I like don't like the privileges that comes with like being a citizen. Because I just became a citizen, like, three years ago, last March, or three years ago in March. Yeah. So it's a new thing. And I Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 kind of don't believe it, I still don't really believe I have, like the protection that you are - that you get with being a citizen. But that's because I was, you know, didn't have it for years and years and couldn't work until I had a green card and had to go through all these loopholes. And so like, doesn't feel real. It's like cool that I have my citizenship. It's a privilege that I had, like a lawyer and like, assistance and a car to get to all these places and appointments. But yeah, I think the Palestinian identity like is like dear to my heart. And it's important to like, share it with people, like I cook Palestinian meals when I can, I'm like, try to share them with people. Cuz like you surround yourself. I mean, I surround myself with open minded people on like, people who would never like, I would never do this, like I would never be around people who didn't accept me. But its still fun that you like, this is the Palestinian meal and share it with other people. Like, share your experiences. RT Okay, you just said something... about being a citizen - did that weigh on your mind growing up? RA It did because I couldn't work for - till I was 20. Excuse me, I like couldn't have a job. I couldn't like, make my own money because I wasn't - I was - This is like the worst term to like, call a person - But I was an alien. I had an alien ID. So it weighed on me in the like, knowing that we weren't citizens, like nobody in my family but my one brother was a citizen. And as for - as long as I can remember, my parents were working on it. And like, we were supposed to become citizens, like five years after we were in the States. And then it was seven. And then September 11th happened. And then that was like, oh, like Muslims are terrifying. We're not going to give them like citizenship. And on top of that, like being - like having a Syrian passport for a Palestinian refugee. It's hard to like, "Where are you from?" Youre like, not from anywhere because Palestine is not identified as a country. You're not a citizen of Syria. You're not a citizen of Kuwait. So that was always like, that was like pretty, like, pretty constantly, like I was I was aware of it all the time. But I also was like, Yeah, like we have a lawyer or like somebody who's working on it, or like, okay, I can't have a job. But at least if like, I can't have a job, but it's better than like, applying for a job and then, like, being kicked out of America, because you don't have like, your alien card. You know? So yeah, that's pretty constant all the time. And even now, it's still is because it's like, what? it took me 25 years to become a citizen. It initially was only going to take me five. So same for my parents. I mean, they just, they became citizen - or they got their green cards or citizenship when they when I was 20. Because that's why I could start working is because I got a green card. So just eight years, they've been citizens - not long. Yeah. RT Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 A couple times, we've kind of like touched on 9/11. And I just, like, want to give the opportunity if you want to, like talk about, like, anything specific, like around that time. You're old enough to like remember that. Or, like any, like lasting effects. Obviously, things have gotten more complicated. But in a lot of the research, there's a lot of - 9/11 is kind of a catalyzing - it's not catalyzing - but to ... it brings together a lot of Muslim experience, but then a lot of research started coming out of that big event. The reactions, I guess. So I just wanted to give you time to talk about that if you want to... RA Yeah. Yeah, this is - it's... we'd... I forget - Like me and friends were talking about like, why, like, when we found out about 9/ 11, and like, how, like, was it appropriate or inappropriate that it was playing, like, when I was... it was in sixth grade... And I was in sixth grade... And they like, I remember somebody that worked in the lunch room was running around class to class, saying, like, they attacked... the Twin Towers or something. And the class like, What are you talking about? like, what's going on? and the teacher just like, put on the news. So like, they were like, telling everybody and I don't know, if we watched... I don't think we watched it for the rest of the day. But I remember like watching it, and it was like nine in the morning, or whatever, their time nine. So I think it was like our home room or something. And I just remember going home, and my mom being terrified, because it was Muslims or they were Muslims who did the attacks. And... just the like, fear and concern of like, being Muslim, and in that time, it was so unsafe. It was so unsafe. Like women weren't wearing their hijabs, and like, people were getting attacked and killed... So I think it always like that shaped me... to like, actually have fear or be fearful... because of like, being Muslim, because now there was like this really big reason why you should hate Muslims. And like a legitimate like, Oh, they killed a bunch of people. And this like this... It's so easy to hate a group. Like it's so easy to hate the "other". And, I mean, when the... shooting in Texas happened on the military base, I think, and like the various other attacks, I mean, every time I don't think for as long as I live, I don't think I'll ever not have like a paniced reaction. And like fear. Because, like, 9/11 was terrifying. It was like tragic. It ruined like the innocence of like, school, like it ruined - it like shaped - You're... like, I don't know how to say it. It was like being Muslim existing. But then being Muslim after this, like terrible attack happened in feeling. Like, at any moment, you could be targeted. At any moment, you can, like, get hurt, or somebody can say something really painful and mean. And even even now like, honestly, what like my truest nightmare is like being attacked in the mosque. Because that's like the most sacred and peaceful place... Just worrying about like, Oh, my God, like, my dad has an accent. Like... I hope that like when my brothers at Friday prayer, nothing happens to them. Or like, what if I'm wearing this necklace? and somebody's angry? And like, does something? So it like shapes how you think of it. And I'm not the only one like, this is totally not like a one, like a random thing. But I think about it all the time. Like I think about 911 all the time. And like, if that Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 didn't happen, where would we be like as a country, in our like, hate towards, towards Muslims, or, and not even just Muslims, it's people who, like, Sihks who wear who have the long hair, and people always mistake them for being Muslim. And for just darker skin, people who are mistaken for Muslims or, like Indian... Like, people from India who are like, attacked and murdered because people do it of like, because they think you're Muslim or whatever. It's like, it's always there. It's always there... constantly for me. And that's just... doesn't like, eat away at me. But it's like a thing, where I think of my nieces and nephews. And I'm like, oh, like, are they going to be ashamed? Are they going to be scared to be Muslim? What's their experience going to be? I don't know. It's just, yeah, it just changes you. Like, it was a sad, it was tragic. And then to be Muslim and have it happen and like, kind of watch the world turn on you, in a way? is kind of haunting? Yeah. RT Yeah, good reason, I think. RA Yeah. RT I have a few more questions. So I couldn't figure out exactly how to word this question. But this is how I've got it so far. Did you ever experience negative personal reactions to your Muslim identity? So for example, did you ever wish to hide it? Or did you ever feel like restricted from it? So not like from the outside, but like, internally? Did you ever feel like opposed to your? RA Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that there... the first thing that comes to mind, like when I was younger was al- like drinking alcohol. Because that's... because Muslims drink alcohol, but it's like, in their religion, you shouldn't. And I think when I was younger, really like, hating that part of it. Like I resented that part of the religion, like why not? Like really, because like, especially when, like, you're in high school, and people are starting to drink or experimenting with alcohol or pot that's like, as for me, it was more alcohol that people were smoking or drinking. But you have like this internal Battle of like, do I want to do this? Do I want to just like, put this identity away for a second? So I can, like, have this experience with people to like, be normal? Yeah, that's like the biggest thing. Now it's like, whatever, I don't drink and it's barely even because of religion at this point. I think now, it's like, oh, I've seen it damage a lot of people. I've gone this long. I'm just like, not going to. Now, it's just like a personal choice. Not to say it's like, oh, sometimes I would love to, like, have a really nice glass of wine, or, like, enjoy this beer that all my friends love. And then, there, sometimes I'm like, Oh, I just wish that I was like, put that little part of guilt away and just like, do it. But I think like, it's kind of like, makes me think of like Catholic guilt. I don't really know exactly what that means completely. But it's like this, like Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 Muslim guilt, like, oh, like, just like, I wish I could just, like, put that away for a second. And enjoy this thing without feeling guilty. And like dating, like, come on, like, just let me date? Or like, why is it really that bad? To just like, date, or to like, meet people and like, learn who you like, or what type of person you like. And then... the other thing is, like, being someone identifying as gay, like, Why Is that wrong? But that's like... I don't think when I was in high school, and like, around super Christian people, is one thing. But then when you shape what you believe yourself, that was like kind of an internal thing. Like, is it wrong? I don't think it's wrong. Like, at my core, don't think it's wrong. And so that's just something where I've been like, that's not wrong. And God... like the relationship between you and whoever you believe, or whatever you believe is like a personal thing. And... nobody can like judge it or speak on it. And like, my way of looking at is like, probably like more liberal leaning. I don't know that everybody would appreciate this but like, yeah, like, God and I have a relationship. I don't necessarily do everything that like a proper Muslim should do. I know that. And I know that, like, nobody can define like, what you believe nobody can judge what you have between whatever you believe, whether it's like, nature, or, like, the beauty of flowers or animals, like nobody can, like speak on that. So I think I have those internal battles, especially like, I'm not going to go into this but like dating somebody who's not Muslim that like internal, like, all right, well, I'm doing this, and it's my own thing. And it's between me and God, how he wants to, like, God knows your my intentions, nature knows your intentions. It's just like a very personal, personal experience. It doesn't need to be judged by others. So yeah. RT Yeah, on kind of the other hand, what's the best or most impactful aspect of growing up Muslim? RA Ohhh, I feel like the joy around like celebrating Ramadan and Eid. And like the fam- like the Arab family gatherings. And like having those experiences as an adult, like those memories of those happy times, and creating those memories with my nieces and nephews is so special. It's, it's so meaningful and special. And my parents did such a good job of making it an important thing. And, yeah, I think the best part is just like what we have now and like what we're able to teach, like, our young family members, like the celebration, and like, yeah, fasting is super tiring, especially when- when it's in the summer. And like, I'm super grouchy, because I don't have any water or coffee, but then you like, eat, and then my mom makes us like really beautiful meal, and we share it and then we're all tired. It's like, a beautiful, it's like, beautiful, and, like, fills my heart with joy. And like a sense of community, even just within my own family. It's like this special thing that we have, that we're Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 celebrating on our own, but also with millions of other people. Like simultaneously. It's it's beautiful to have that and I'm really thankful... for that and to be proud, I think like, they really did teach us to be proud. My parents did. Like proud of being Muslim for- all say for myself, like I'm proud of being Muslim. I'm proud of being where I'm from. And I'm proud of what my family represents. And I also know better than, like, I know that like when you're identifying as Muslim, but then you do an evil act like you're not actually a Muslim. That's not what the religion is. Religion is peace. And that's a beautiful thing. Like that's it is a peaceful religion. And it's so easy to forget that right? Like, like, literally translates to peace - Islam is peace and like, it's just a nice thing to carry. And to try to tell people... all religion has like, they're really like, that's not cool. Like, that's not a great, like, way to see things or to talk of people. But it's, you can hear hang on to the things that you appreciate and agree with. Yeah, they just I think, for me, they really did teach me of like, pulling me back to my roots of like, Yeah, I don't like I'm not the best practicing Muslim. Like, I will absolutely admit that. And I still hold it close and appreciate it and like have a lot to learn still. So yeah... RT ...that's really beautiful... Okay, so I want to wrap it up by just asking if there's anything you wish, like in your schooling and growing up that your teachers and peers would have known about you and your religion. And you can take it either looking into the past or like looking towards the future, like, Is there anything that educators should know about their Muslim students? Yeah. I feel like... one thing that I wish was wish that was different, like from my school experience, was making sure that students didn't feel like they needed to forget their like native language, and encouraging you to still use that, and not have to wash it away. And I don't know, like the best way to do this of like, teaching people to be inclusive, or it gets so hard to say, like, how people should do it. But I just wish that it was more of an inclusive environment for me and for my brothers in school. RA Because there was no, it was just like this mystical thing that nobody wanted to touch on. And I think that would have made a really big difference if, you know, if there was enough resources and enough time for teachers or for them to bring people in just to educate everybody... that- I think that would make such a big difference. to not make people feel "othered" it or make them feel like they don't fit in. And I think even now it's so important... Like, I guess in the cities to it's easier to say like you get a lot of people from different backgrounds, I guess in certain schools, but it's like more in your face than it is like in the suburban area. And some suburban areas. I just wish that it was like, I just wish they thought more about what they were doing. Because it really does like impact your life. Yeah. But how did they know? I don't know. How would they know to do that when there's such a small population? Part of me is like, I can't blame them. Then another part is like, why was that teacher saying that stuff? You know... yeah. Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames 4/4/19 RT Well, hopefully, your story being added to the Minnesota Muslim stories that we're gathering is at least a step in the right direction. RA Yeah, absolutely. RT Thank you for sharing. RA Yeah, my pleasure. RT Excited to add this to the collection. RA Thanks. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Karima Vargas Bushnell, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Oral History Transcript Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center) Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student) This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019. Note: Bra...
Show more Oral History Transcript Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center) Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student) This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019. Note: Bracketed statements in this transcript were added by the narrator during the editing process with the intent of clarifying certain facts and references made during the interview. Chad Berryman 0:00 So, thanks for sitting down with me again. Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:04 A pleasure. Chad Berryman 0:05 Could you please introduce yourself with full name and date of birth? Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:09 Yes. I am Karima Vargas Bushnell, born January 20th, 1953. Chad Berryman 0:17 Thank you. And I guess just to start, could you tell us a little bit about your upbringing, where you come from? Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:25 Sure, that's kind of interesting. I was born in Reno, Nevada, and lived there till I was 20, except for one year in boarding school in the LA area. Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:37 My father was from a small town in Nevada, tiny little town you wouldn't have heard of. My mother was from Washington, DC. So, like the main character and imaginary author in my novel that I wrote--there's a new one coming out pretty soon--like this character I was mistakenly raised as an East Coast intellectual in the heart of the Western desert. That made things kind of strange. Chad Berryman 1:01 Wow. How did you end up here, then, in Minneapolis? Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:07 Oh, the short version is I had a relative here. And that's funny. That is the one question I think I'd just like to leave there. It was kind of a--well, I won't say it was a mistake, but it was a fluke. It worked out well. Chad Berryman 1:24 Could you maybe then, rather than yourself, give me a little bit of a general history of Light Upon Light and then how you came to be associated with Light Upon Light? Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:37 Oh, sure. Actually, I don't mind at all talking about myself. Why I moved here just turns out to be the one little odd thing-- Chad Berryman 1:47 Sure, that's alright. Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:48 But I actually, I would love to just tell you, first that-- So, my father was an attorney in Reno, and my father was, we're pretty sure, part-Native American. I didn't realize till I did a lot of diversity projects. I was on the board, with Ghafar Lakanwal from Afghanistan, of the Minnesota Cultural Diversity Center. I was on their advisory board for a few years. And I was meeting with Native American people as well as others, and I noticed that all these men here had the hairline and the ear that looked just like my father. They looked like his brother or his cousin. I had never seen anybody with that before. I mean, straight black hair, just combed straight back. And something about it just looked like my dad. Karima Vargas Bushnell 2:31 "That looks like his brother!" "That looks like his cousin! That's weird." And I did find out later. So, the name was Vargas. And I was an only, I was brought up as an only child. I was always told that the heredity on his father's side was Spanish. I remember him saying, “We're Spanish, we're Spanish!" Like that, you know. "Not Mexican. No Mexicans around here, especially no Indians," you know, right? Well, it turns out the photograph that was shown to me as my grandfather was not my grandfather, it was my grandmother's brother. My older half-sister told me this at a certain point. The other picture, actually across the hall, of the guy on the horse holding the calf, who didn't look like the same guy at all, was my actual grandfather. And my grandfather was not John Dorsey Vargas, as I was told, he was Juan Doroteo Vargas. Okay, and I have his Catholic baptismal certificate today. So this is pretty neat. Karima Vargas Bushnell 3:31 So, Dad apparently, his mother married somebody she was not supposed to marry according to the mores of their community. And my dad had a really hard time growing up and didn't want to talk or think about this in any way. He passed quite a few years ago. I feel that he would be alright with [my talking about] it now. And I do talk about it now. My mother, on the other hand, her father was Jewish. And he was not religious. They were scientists, they didn't believe. She said one time that he believed in assimilation. That's what they believed. The name was Berliner, and his father had come over from Germany, so they missed that horror [by coming a generation earlier]. So I was, as my mom used to say, "I could have a Christian-Jewish conference with myself in a phone booth." She was a philosophy major at University of Nevada when she was bringing me up. So, I had an interesting upbringing. I just somehow I wanted to share that with you. Chad Berryman 4:17 Well, thank you. Absolutely. Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:19 Yeah. There was that tangent. You were talking about . . . ? I go on tangents. There was one. Chad Berryman 4:24 Yeah, of course. So then Light Upon Light-- how does that fit into your narrative? Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:32 Well, that's comes quite late in the narrative. My husband, John Hakim Bushnell, and I, we've been married 35 years. And we started this. I think we started it in, what, about 2010 or 2011? And we incorporated first as an LLC, and I kept telling him "No, that's not what we want," you know. Do I mean LLC? Is that right? But, you know, like a business. I mean, "No, John that's the wrong thing." So, then we redid it as a 501(c)(3), which is really what we are, we're a nonprofit. Karima Vargas Bushnell 5:04 But this was the culmination of a lifetime of study and doing different things. And this was a place for these things to happen. So we started it. Chad Berryman 5:15 So I think one thing that strikes a lot of people about Sufism, and particularly the manifestations that seem to have most taken root in the US, is an interplay between the particular and the universal, you know, the local and the global. And I was wondering, you know, on the sign outside, it mentions, you know, that here, there's events and practices from two different traditions. And I think it's a beautiful example of this. So, I was wondering if you could speak to that dynamic a little bit with Light Upon Light. You just mentioned you were in Istanbul, and, you know, that dynamic between the particular here, but also the traditional particular and then the greater tradition? Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:08 Oh, yes, yes. And we occupy a kind of a cultural borderland in a couple of different ways. To understand about this, there's a thing you have to know about, and this is the American Sufi phenomenon and Hazrat Inayat Khan. Have you ever-- Chad Berryman 6:24 I have. Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:24 --come across his name? Okay. Well, yes. That's his picture, it's over there. The lovely, lovely man with a beard. Chad Berryman 6:29 I thought it looked familiar! Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:30 Yeah, yeah. So, he came in--and dates are not my best thing, but approximately 1900 or 1910, he came to the West, and he was first in Europe and then he was in America. There's a lovely story about him. He came as a musician. They were the Royal Musicians of Hindustan or something, and it was himself and, I think, a brother and a cousin. Something along those lines: that he and a couple of relatives, male relatives, came as musicians. And they came from a house of very highly-honored musicians in India, and Hindu and Muslim musicians mixed freely in this household and played together. And he was a lovely, you know, universal person. He came here and wrote back in horror to his teachers and said, "There's no Islam here, you should send someone!" And they wrote him back--this is, you know, the version I heard of this--wrote him back and they said, "Well, you're there." So he got stuck with the job of trying to introduce Islam to the West. And again, I read in another place, and I could find these citations somewhere for you with a little digging if it was necessary, but that he had written or said somewhere that if he had tried to bring Islam in its full and regular and ordinary form to the West, he said, "About six people would have listened to me in Europe and America." So, what he did is he created a universalist version of Islam that was suitable for Victorian westerners. And a couple of Sufi orders came from that. They're now known as the Inayati orders. And there are basically three of them as far as I know. Karima Vargas Bushnell 8:13 I first got into Sufism, and then my husband did also through me, through something that's called the Ruhaniat order. I think now it's Ruhaniat International. That is one of these branches of the Hazrat Inayat Khan orders. And the funny thing about this, you'd run into--I always kind of characterized it as "hippies and psychologists," at least that's how it felt to me. So, I met up with this in 1976 in Spokane. I was involved in yoga, and not the physical yoga, but more the philosophy and the practices and the breathing and some of these different things, meditation, these things. My Swami Atmanishtananda Ruth Reynolds, who was an amazing woman, passed many years ago, had a little place called the Vedanta Yoga Center in Spokane. Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:03 And I was one of her devotees. She had about 15, and we were very close to her, and she loved us. She wouldn't initiate me because she said I was too immature, and she was very smart [not to initiate me then, because I was immature]. And I was about 23, 24 at the time. Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:16 But one day, there was a friend named, at the time, Waduda Majeed. And she used to come to our stuff, and we made friends. And she said, "Hey, you should come to this thing I'm doing on Tuesday nights." I said, "Okay, what is it?" "Well, it's called Sufi Dancing." "What's that?" Well, that made no sense to me. What is it? You know, I didn't mind, I was intrigued. "Well, I can't really explain it, you have to come." So I came to this. And this is the thing that is now called the Dances of Universal Peace. It's a form of spiritual practice, a group spiritual practice in which simple circle dances--simple moves taken actually from folk dance--you do these while reciting the Sacred Names and mantras and holy words from all traditions, from traditions of the world, you know. World religions, but also they brought in, you know, some from the Native Americans and different things. I remember doing this one time with some actual Indians in the back of the room, giggling, kind of like 'look at them!'" And my husband was not into the Indian Dances after that. Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:17 But this was something, and this has spread around the world now and gotten to be quite a big thing. So these American Sufis in the Inayati orders, you'd meet people that had Arabic names, and you would meet people who did dhikrullah, zikr, the remembrance of the Divine through the repetition of La Illaha Illa Allah, or [other sacred phrases], you know, but they did not consider themselves Muslims in any way. And most of them still don't. There are about 12 that do in the one order. I was talking to a guy from it the other day. Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:51 So, it was very odd, you'd meet your, I don't know, Farishta or Jamila or somebody, you know, "Hi, I'm Jamila and I'm from California and I go to zikr once a week," and "Muslim? No, what?" [They had Muslim names and did Muslim practices, but they didn't identify as Muslims and had no interest or knowledge about it.] Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:08 It was a funny thing, a funny cultural phenomenon. So, I got in with this, I led these dances for a number of years. I had also done--see, I'm a world religions person, I have been all my life. Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:24 I had an experience of God, sometime between three and five years old. And I wasn't raised in a religious way really at all--with a couple of little minor exceptions--but in general, not. But I had experiences of God. I learned about God from the inside, not the outside. Rather than somebody telling me something, I had to like, "What is this thing that happened? And what's that?" And you know, and I even remember, this is a funny thing. My mom was driving me to school--I think junior high. And so, you know, I was about 13. And I was trying to--I might have been younger, it might have been to grade school, but I think it was to junior high-and I was trying to explain to her what I wanted to do, what I was interested in. And she was this philosophy major, and she always encouraged me to think, and she always talked to me and encouraged me to tell her my ideas. And we spent, I don't know, thousands of hours of discussion. And I was an only, so I was her project, I was like her science project. But I was trying to explain to her what it was I was interested in and what I wanted and what I wanted to do with my life. And I remember her turning. We must have been at a stop sign. She turned and looked at me. She said "Metaphysics?" and I had never heard the word before. And I said "Yes!" So, you know, there you go. Karima Vargas Bushnell 12:31 I'm not quite sure where I was going with that. So I had this background--I know! So, I liked very much--the Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism is more kind of, I don't know, high flown. And you could make diagrams and it's intellectual and high spiritual and this kind of thing. But then of course, then there's the bhakta, which is the passionate singing, singing and dancing with the love of God and these beautiful songs. So I had really enjoyed that at a certain time. And for some reason, in Minneapolis here--and this was before our kids were born. But I was married and I wanted to go find somebody doing this. At the time, I knew this as bhajan and kirtan. Kirtan's gotten big now, which, whoever thought that would happen? That's a funny thing. I looked around, nobody was doing it. So I thought, well, let's start some, try to do this. I was at the Meditation Center, I think they call it again now, over in North Minneapolis on Sixth Street. It was the Center for Higher Consciousness for a while, and the name's gone back and forth. But I went over there and they said, yes, you can have a space and you can do this like once a week or whatever. And one guy showed up, who turned out to be the main proponent, the main implementer of kirtan in the Cities now, he's one of the main guys doing this. And we did, we started doing these chants, beautiful chants. This is going to get to Sufis in a minute here. Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:05 My husband started coming and we were doing this. And then we started something that was called the Sunday Night Chanters, and we had about 20 people I think, and we were not just doing these [Hinduism-based songs], but we were doing spiritual songs from a bunch of different traditions. So, some of the Christian ones that are more really kind of experiential, and, you know, rousing and heart-touching. And somebody showed up that had some Earth spirituality chants and stuff. And then I was remembering back to my days of the Dances of Universal Peace and I thought, "Oh, bring in some of these Sufi songs," which are very, very beautiful, some of them, they're powerfully affecting. Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:39 I was bringing what I could remember because this is, this was now about 1984, maybe? Yeah, around '83, '84. And then, I got--and these things happen on the spiritual path--I got a flyer in the mail. I hadn't had anything thing to do with the Dances since the 70s. And at the time, I was in Spokane, and then I was in Reno, and then I was here. And here's this flyer, saying there's--at the time they called it Sufi Dancing--a Sufi Dancing weekend in Puget Sound, Washington. And you know, and I said, "Okay, you know, I want to go." So I went, and my husband was very nice and sweet about it. And, you know, he didn't mind me going at all and I went, and I came back and I was completely into this. I was drenched in these dances. Can I sing a little tiny thing into the mic? Chad Berryman 15:28 Yeah, of course! Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28 Okay, lovely. So here's just to give you an example. Again, there are things in Sanskrit and things in Arabic and things in Hebrew and other languages. You know, but this one I love; it's been with me lately. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi are two of the Divine Names, the 99 Names of Allah, Asma al-Husna, and can be translated as O Healer, O Remedy. That's how they do it. So, the one is for everyone and the other one is this specific--kind of like in Christianity, "The sun shines on the just and the unjust." Ya Shafi is a little more like that. Ya Kafi is what you need in this moment, what will work for this specific individual. They translate that, "O Healer, O Remedy". So, you get these two parts going at once, so [singing]: Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28 Let me do Thy will Allah, (I'll get my drum.) Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi. Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:00 So you'd have two or even possibly three of circles, three concentric circles. If you have three, you have people in the middle going, "La Illaha Illa Allah," like that, which is a zikr phrase, right? And then you have people doing these and doing different very simple movements, you know, hold hands, raise their hands, come down like this, or, you know, moving this way, moving that way. This kind of thing. So these are the Dances. I really, really loved them. So I came back from this weekend in Spokane, and I was all into this. I was like, "John, we got to start doing this!" He's like, no, he didn't want to, he was sitting on the ground with his drum and he was very happy. He did not want to get up and do these silly dances. And they can look kind of silly when you first get into it if you run into the wrong ones. And he ran into one of those. I remember him and some other man going, "Hu hu make-aloha". He's like, no. He's a big bear-like guy with a big beard, you know, he's like, "No, I don't wanna do that," you know. Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:54 He wound up absolutely, eventually, falling in love with it. And now, for many years, he was the one that led the Dances after I'd moved on to other things. So we made this transition from the Sunday Night Chanters which was merely the singing and drumming, no movement and no standing up or any of that, to the Dances of Universal Peace as they're called now, and at the time, Sufi Dancing. And then we did that for quite a while. We did that. I led that for six years, back in the day. And he was just drumming to start with and then he kind of fell in love with it and took it over. And we had a little power struggle about that, which was exciting. [Laughs.] Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:30 But then, at a certain point, also, I found a funny thing was happening with me. I started getting drawn toward Islam. And this happened in three different ways simultaneously. One thing was the Islamic-based dances were really touching me and calling me much more than any of the others. And they're all about equally wonderful. They're all powerful, but the different traditions, you know, [have different flavors and] are attractive to different people. Chad Berryman 18:53 Sure. Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:54 So that was one thing that started happening. Then, we were doing this in the basement of Walker Methodist--it's a long name--Walker United Community Methodist Church, or something like that, or just Walker Church they call it, right. It burned down and they rebuilt it now. But with a delightful pastor by the name of Brian, I can't remember [his last name] at this moment. Karima Vargas Bushnell 19:18 He was really funny. My son's name was Garek--his American name is Garek--Isa Nuraddin. But he was a baby and this Brian, he'd hold him up in the air and go "Gark!" I think he thought his name was funny. You know, you'd spell that G-A-R-K, Gark, it was just very silly. But, we did the Dances there. And we got to know Brian, Brian Peterson was his name, much beloved community activist and guy in town. He died a number of years ago. But he contacted me at a certain point, you know, "Karima, I want to talk to you," and called me into his office. And he wanted to start something that was going to be called the Spiritual Discovery Center: a series of workshops and classes and whatnot on different--and some kind of social things and I don't know, you know, emotional--I mean no exercises or anything like that--but a spectrum of things. But I was interested in the spiritual things the most. But he wanted to bring different teachers in and do different stuff. And would I like to be the head of it? And I said absolutely I would, and I had a fine time doing that. It was just great. Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:19 So, in the course of that, at one time--I have a dear, dear friend who is a rabbi. And the thing that's fun is he's actually the editor on my forthcoming book. He was also the editor on my first book. He's the loveliest rabbi you would ever want to meet. I don't think he'd mind my telling this. He used to walk in the Mayday Parade with an Israeli flag and a Palestinian flag in his Hasidic garb. And he took some guff from some people for that, but he's just a wonderful person. But let's see, now I'm out on a limb like a jazz musician, how to--where did I come from? Chad Berryman 20:54 The three ways-- Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:55 Oh, I know what it was. So the rabbi was already a friend and we had talked and somehow, we--he had the idea or I had the idea--somehow the idea came about of having a trialogue, a Muslim/Christian/ Jewish conversation with a panel. And that was pretty new then. He said--Rabbi Gershom is his name--and he thought that this was the first time this had been done in the Cities. I could find what the year was, I'm not sure right now, but it would have been somewhere in the '80s. And so, you know, Christians are not hard to find. We found a nice minister from a Protestant congregation. I don't remember his name now, very nice guy. And we had Rabbi Gershom. And we got Caesar Farah who came and moderated, who was a professor at the University. It was wonderful. I think he was Lebanese Christian, I believe. I may be wrong on that, that's my memory. I know he was Christian. I think he was originally Lebanese. Karima Vargas Bushnell 21:53 But we had to find a Muslim someplace. Who knew, you know, "Where are they? I don't know where they are," you know. So, I got the name of a mosque and called up. And they were a little hesitant at first, like, "Who're you?" and it was kind of strange. And I met these lovely two men. Karima Vargas Bushnell 22:15 So, Imam Bilal, but not the Imam Bilal I know now, completely different, and Imam . . . I'm so embarrassed, I can't remember his name. Imam Akbar was the other one. And they were two friends. They were two of the leaders within the mosque. At the time they called it Masjid Mu-JAD-id. Now I'd say Muja-DEED, and I'm not sure if they were just doing a variation or what, but they called it Masjid MujADdid--and it was on the corner of, I think it is Fourth Street and 38th. Right near here, you can see that building. Yes, that building was some kind of Sikh organization or something after there at some point. Well, then they changed it. At a certain point they changed it to the Masjid Al-Haqq, you know, mosque of truth--and then it became the Masjid An-Nur. Their Nur is, you know, Nur means light, so you hear the name all the time [for Muslim organizations]. It's no connection with us. And they moved across the river and they're over in Northeast now. So, the Masjid An-Nur that's there is the descendant or the continuation of this mosque, predominately an African American mosque. Lovely people, plus they had those bean pies, which are so good. But from the old days, [the original Nation of Islam], you know, right? So I met these guys. Karima Vargas Bushnell 23:26 We had a number of dinners and things to talk or just, you know, to get together with Caesar Farah and everybody that was involved. And as I got to know them more, and the event went very well, it was very nice. But the more I got to know them, the more I felt like--I think I wrote about it, I called it a strange subterranean connection--I felt as though we shared something. And that there were many, many things that I, in my worldview, that was like their worldview. And there was just this, there was just a connection. I became quite good friends with Imam Akbar. We once went with--and of course, it would not be proper for the two of us to be together with just the two of us, so he had a Muslim woman that he knew who was delightful, I don't remember her name now--and the three of us went in a van up to a prison up north, I think near Duluth--this is many years ago, so I'm not quite sure where it was--to talk to the Muslim prisoners, and he told us what he wanted us to say. I went completely off the rails and said something completely different and told them that because they're African American they're, you know, "You are oppressed, and it's not your fault!" And he didn't seem to mind. Karima Vargas Bushnell 24:40 But the whole way up, we were reading from the introduction to the Yusuf Ali Qur'an, which was just wonderful. And, we're reading from this, and we were talking, and the three of us just had the most special, beautiful time. And during this whole [time period], getting to know these people, at one point I was in a house. And I think I was the first Caucasian person that had ever been in this house. And this dear little girl just came and climbed up on my lap and just looked up at me--hopefully not because I was had a funny color skin, you know, I hope that's not what it was--but we just kind of fell in love. She was about five, maybe. Oh, and I loved her, it's great you know. So I had these wonderful experiences. And I felt such a kinship. And then, and this will give the time of actually when this was happening, I guess a little better, because the first Gulf War was declared. I was sitting there listening to my radio, and I was absolutely convinced that this was going to be the end of the world. Oh, and I'm going to backtrack a little bit. They thought it was kind of funny that I said I was a Sufi but I wasn't a Muslim. That was odd. And I got every reaction from, "Well, you can't be that," to "That's kind of weird." You know, there was a range. I remember standing at Walker Church in front of this large group with a bunch of these folks in it. I said, "Well, you say you can't have a non-Muslim Sufi, but like, here I am, so I'm proof, I'm here." They were very polite. But it would be a little bit like saying, "Well, I'm a Hasid, but I'm not Jewish," you know. Or "I'm a Christian mystic, but I'm not Christian, though." That's how it sounded to them, just kind of nuts, really. Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:19 Although there have [historically] been some people that have taken initiation into Sufi orders that were not Muslim. And in fact, our order initiates people--and I'll say something else about that--you don't have to be Muslim to take hand, which is what we call it, into our Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order. Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:36 Let's see, so I want to finish up this segment because there's just a little bit more to this. So it was the night the first Gulf War came on the radio, and I was absolutely sure this was the end of the world. This was the beginning of the end of the world. And I realized, "It's the end of the world--I want to be with these Muslims, I want to be one of them." And I phoned up, I phoned Imam Akbar and his wife and said this. I can't remember quite what he said to me on the phone, but it was very supportive. And then he wrote me a letter that I still have somewhere, and the line I remember, is it says, "You are a beautiful Muslim soul." That was in there. And it was the most touching, lovely thing. So at a certain point, I did take shahada. I guess the three directions that this came from... the falling in love with the Muslim Dances of Universal Peace, and then the meeting with Imam Bilal and Imam Akbar, and particularly Imam Akbar, [and suddenly finding many books on Sufism that said you had to be a Muslim to be a Sufi, which made me doubt my authenticity.] But I didn't take shahada for quite a long time after that either. Karima Vargas Bushnell 27:47 Then I had this back and forth, because and I didn't know about Wahhabis. And you're familiar with Wahhabism, I'm sure--I didn't know about this. I had a series of wonderful and terrible experiences with Muslims, so I couldn't figure it out. Because I would meet someone, and I guess I can encapsulate this with a little incident that happened in a parking garage. There used to be a lot of Somali or other Muslim--I think they were mostly Somali, maybe some Ethiopians and stuff--parking attendants, you know, and you'd go out and they'd give you your ticket, and or you give them the ticket to pay and all that. Karima Vargas Bushnell 28:20 And so one time I was there, and there were two guys in the booth, and I went out and one of them--I think I might have said salaam aleikum or something to him--and this guy, it's like we just fell into each other's eyes. Not in any romantic way, but just in a universal love kind of way. This was the most beautiful, expansive, you know, sometimes you meet somebody who just clicks like that. And so just this love, this acceptance, these connections on higher levels, just this wonderful, you know, "My brother, there you are!" And then I happened to catch eyes with the other guy, and he was the exact opposite. I have never seen such disgust and rejection, and you know, "Oh, you're evil, I hate you!" It was the exact opposite. That was crazy. And this was within, you know, within a half a minute or a minute. And then I drove on--"Boy, that was kind of weird," you know? So I would meet Muslims that were so--and women also, I kind of seem like I'm talking about men, but women also--people that were so loving and so accepting and so generous and so kind. And they were everything that I wanted to be, and they talked about what they wanted for the world, and it completely agreed with everything I wanted, and everything they believed, and justice and kindness and faith and it was perfect. And then I would meet people that were so extremely rule-oriented, and very, to me, like really nitpicky--even though I didn't have really a problem with that then because I wanted to learn, you know. But one time at the masjid this woman jumped all over me because I had a little tiny bit of hair showing, which you're not supposed to. And now I can suit up properly with the best of 'em and not show any, you know, but I had a little tiny bit of hair showing on my forehead or something. And she really jumped on me and really gave me a lecture. Imam Akbar kind of scolded her. And then I said, "Oh, no, please, please, I want to learn, thank you, sister, thank you." But I didn't take shahada for a long time because of these confusing, alternating experiences. Karima Vargas Bushnell 30:15 Eventually I kind of got to a point where I didn't know what to do because I felt as though I didn't really fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the Muslims, mainly because I was not willing to say that Hinduism is a lie. You know, Buddhism--we had sponsored Tibetans, we had Tibetans living in our house, and they're impressive people. I'm not personally drawn to Buddhism, but Hinduism I'd had a deep connection with and found a lot of truth in that. Or I couldn't say that--it's funny, I wanted to be a Catholic since I was a little tiny peanut. The people next door were Catholics, I would have joined in a heartbeat. The kids, their kids, they had no use for it. They didn't want anything to do with it. But I was upset that they got to go to catechism and I didn't get to go to catechism and I wanted to go. My mom was a big Planned Parenthood buff, so that was never going to happen, you know. But I was not willing to say that these other religions were false and wrong. I couldn't do it, you know. So I didn't fit in anywhere. It's as though I was in this canyon with nothing under my feet and, you know, communities on either side, and I didn't go anywhere. And then I met Shaykh Nur al-Jerrahi, whose picture is over there, who I will show you at the appropriate moment. I wrote him a poem one time and I said that I was like him, but, "I'm an ant struggling up a small rock with a grain of sugar while you climb a mountain with a ton of wild honey." So I had done all the same things he'd done except he did them on a grand scale. Karima Vargas Bushnell 31:43 He studied world religions. He was first at Yale and then he was at Columbia and he'd written a bunch of books and he traveled all over. He practiced the religions, he really, really practiced them, and he was just magnificent. And he had taken shahada with Shaykh Muzaffer al-Jerrahi of Istanbul, who was this beautiful Shaykh whose picture is also around here. So, with Shaykh Nur I found somebody that I could become Muslim with and yet not have to say I renounce Christianity, I renounce, you know [my previous traditions]. So that was it. So then, there's me. So then for many years, my husband was still a Ruhaniat American non-Muslim Sufi. I've been a Muslim since 1993. And you know, Muslims will tell you you're a "revert", "Every child is born a Muslim," but to me that's speaking about a different level. But I took shahada in '93. And I gave up [expecting that my husband would ever convert]! I'd tell people, "My husband is non-Muslim," and I had a Saudi guy one time, "Well, you must divorce him!" "Well, no, I don't think I'm going to do that". But then the women, they'd say like, "Inshallah sister, inshallah someday." And I'd say, "Oh, yeah, inshallah," that'll happen, you know. And about, I don't know, three or four years ago now, he wound up taking shahada, which surprised the heck out of me. I wasn't even around. He did it at a Sufi camp and he came back and told me that he'd done it. So that was a lot of fun. Karima Vargas Bushnell 32:58 He is still a teacher of the Ruhaniat order, which is one of these Inayati orders from Hazrat Inayat Khan. And I am a circle leader--khalifa is the title--in the Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order, under Shaykha Fariha. And so we have these two parallel organizations. So there, now that kind of explains the whole thing pretty much. Chad Berryman 33:24 Yeah! Karima Vargas Bushnell 33:25 All right. Chad Berryman 33:27 Kind of going off of that, I think you hinted at it. You were talking about Shaykh Muzaffer, you know, these other people. And also thinking about, you know, things you mentioned concerning relationships with various Muslims and various Muslim communities. Could you speak a little bit about how you feel, or how taking the shahada or how just practicing Sufism, however you want to interpret your journey, and how that has changed the manner in which you feel connection to these people, these communities? Not just in and around the Twin Cities, but, you know, like, Shaykh Muzaffer obviously is a very concrete connection to Istanbul. Karima Vargas Bushnell 34:21 Yes. Actually, the thing I want to touch for a moment on is the thing with African American Muslims. Because I, and again, you know, I know this is going to be archived, and I have no issues about saying this, I'm proud of it. It was great. And my husband has no issues with it either. Because I'm a kid from the 70s, so, you know, I was a hippie. But I had an approximately four-year relationship with an African American man as my significant other, which we were quite the comedy act, because he was six-foot-three and thin, and I'm five feet--well I was five two at the time. And I had my little Indian print skirt, and we both had our sandals, and he had the guru whites. I don't know if you've ever--sort of floaty material and like a Panama hat with bells on it, right? We were hilarious. And I had the little square glasses, you know? And we hitchhiked all around Nevada, California, and Washington with a little dog by the name of Ratty, for Ratlips. We didn't call him that, there's a story about that, too. And, I had my guitar and we had our backpacks or whatever we had, and a bright yellow bass fiddle because he was a musician and some fool had painted this thing bright yellow. We had bought it, and eventually I think we stripped it off or he did and you know, put it back to its natural color. But you know, you see this circus act hitchhiking on the road. And people loved us. They wanted to pick us up, they just loved us, you know, especially with the bright yellow bass fiddle and the little dog and the whole deal, you know. So we had a lot of fun. So I had connections with the African American community before meeting Muslims because I lived with his family for a while, and then we lived with some friends of his in a house in San Jose, California. 12th Street, which I guess was considered kind of rough. We hitchhiked when we first got there. And it was a beautiful night out and I went for a walk around the block. I guess people were unloading, people were whatever, they were talking, whatever was going on. I went for a walk around the block. I got back and about six people said, "What were you doing? Where were you?" I said I went for a walk around the block. "Walk around the block, are you insane?" Karima Vargas Bushnell 36:19 So it's pretty funny. But I got a good course in some sociology and different things from these people. Because it helped me understand some things I had never understood. And the moment--I do have a story about that. So it was on the front porch of the house on 12th Street. And I said, you know, the ignorant questions you have when you don't know any better. I said, "Well, you guys, like I know slavery was really, really horrible and awful. But, you know, that was a long time ago. I mean, wasn't that a long time, isn't it time to move on from that?" And it's funny, I've always had a lot of friendships with men. I don't know why. I have good friendships with women too, but I always, that's what happens. That was funny. When I became Muslim, I didn't realize I was going to become a Muslim woman. I thought I was just going to become a Muslim. That was a shock. Big shock. But anyway, three of these guys--and my guy, Jack, he was not there, he was probably off playing a gig, he played all the time--and they whirled around on me with no anger, but great intensity. And they said, "No, it's still it's happening! It's happening now!" And this was probably 1975. So it was a big wake-up call for me. And then somehow, I had the feeling that I'd ducked under a fence and come out on the other side living in San Jose and living with these folks. I don't know what it was--if something changed in the way I walked or how I presented myself or something. Even when I was by myself. It used to be the white people would see me and the black people wouldn't see me. Now the black people could see me and the white people would ignore me. It was the oddest thing. And they'd greet, you know, and I missed that when I moved to Minneapolis, the way people greet each other in the street. You get that sometimes here, but there that was really the custom. And so being greeted by all these lovely African American men and women and greeting them back and it was just normal, it was just great. You know, so I had that background. So I was very pleased when I met the Muslims here, and they were all African American, the ones I knew. And at one point early on, one of the sisters--this is one of my couple of first times in the Masjid Mujaddid--and she said, "Sister, we know some white Muslim women. We can introduce you to them so you'll be more comfortable." And I just burst into tears. Because my understanding was that Islam was not about that, that I would finally be able to move beyond that and just be a human being with other human beings, you know? So that was a big disappointment. Karima Vargas Bushnell 38:47 Yeah, so I've done this very naive thing twice in my life where, you know, "These people are the bad people. And they're the phonies, and I'm going to get away from them. And I'm going to these people who are the real people, the good people, the right people." So I did that with hippies. And then you find out there are phony hippies, and there are people who are just as snobbish about their ripped jeans, and whatever, as these other people are about their fancy suits. There's no difference. The only difference is the costume. So then I made the same mistake with black people, you know, "All black people are good and nice and kind. They're the good people," and I did that. And of course that also is not the case. Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:24 So, you asked me about my identity with or, you know, my feelings toward different communities. So there was that. That's precious to me. Because even now, there's segment of people that will just look at me as--of course, if I wore the hijab all the time, it'd help, and I don't. I wear it for prayer. And I wear it on 'Eid. And I wear it for the zikr--but a certain number of people will just look at me as a Muslim sister and another human being and there's not that color business, you know. Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:57 But you also mentioned Istanbul. I did travel there. I spent two weeks in 2012 in Istanbul and Konya, and I love it so much, and I want to go back. And that is a place that I have imagined living there many times. Of course, the situation politically now there is not too pleasant, you know. But I hope to go back someday. I love Shaykh Muzaffer though I never met him. He was Shaykh Nur's teacher. There used to be a book with a photograph of Shaykh Muzaffer on the back. And the book, I think we had it over here, but I don't think we have that one. I have that picture somewhere. It was removed, because there was a group that wanted to republish it, but there was a picture of him smoking. He's got a cigarette. He's got a cup of coffee and a cigarette. He had great big hands. The coffee cup looks like a doll's teacup. But because there are Muslim schools of law, as I understand it--and this could be wrong. So if I'm wrong, you know, apologies. The four madhabs, I don't know the plural, of Sunni Islam. There are a couple of them in which smoking is forbidden and a couple in which it's merely disapproved. Or maybe there's a couple where it's neutral and a couple where it's disapproved, and nobody forbids it. I'm not sure. But anyway, these guys were not down with the smoking. They got a different picture. But in this original picture, he had the most beautiful, charming smile on his face, kind of a glimmer in his eye. And the Dances of Universal Peace, the American Sufi thing I was talking about, used to have what we called Sufi Camp. It could be a weekend, it could be a week, you'd go somewhere--it was blissful. And they would sell books at these, of course, and there'd be a book table that was there. And there'd be this picture of Shaykh Muzaffer on this book. And I don't know, the book must have been turned over, or I'm wrong and it was on the front, I'm not sure. But I'd walk by that, and he'd always catch my eye and twinkle at me. And I was like, "Oh, that's weird." So the picture was like, "Oh, hello!" That was pretty fun. Karima Vargas Bushnell 41:50 But Shaykh Nur was the teacher of my life. He's the one people write about, "Oh, and then I met my guru and everything changed." That was him, you know, for me. And many people-his American name is Lex Hixon. And he wrote, I think, about 10 books on different world religions. And many people who knew him believed that he was an enlightened being, and I did, you know. I mean he was like nobody I ever met. But now I have this wonderful teacher called Imam Bilal Hyde. And in a completely different way, he is equally amazing. So I've been blessed twice. And I'm studying Qur'an and things with him, you know? Chad Berryman 42:33 You mentioned being in New York. Could you speak a little bit about connections between the center here--and I believe from my knowledge there's the one in New York and then also one in Mexico City--and, you know, how often do you all interact? How close is that community? Karima Vargas Bushnell 43:02 Yes, that's a really good question. So Shaykha Fariha is the head of the whole thing. And the two largest groups are New York and Mexico City. Shaykha Amina Taslima is in Mexico City. And I have pictures--I wish I could get the pictures somehow into the archive --but I have a picture of the two of them together. And they're like a couple of, I don't know, a couple of opposite angels. Shaykha Fariha is very ethereal, and Shaykha Amina Taslima is pretty down to earth, but very smart--I mean, really spiritual, but in a completely different way. And a wonderful sense of humor, also. I guess they both have that, but in different ways. So those are the two biggest groups. Aside from that, there are smaller circles around the country and in some other places in the world. There was one in Senegal. I'm not sure if that's still operating because Ummu Malik, who was the woman heading that, had a daughter in a terrible car accident and they brought her here--not here--but to New York for the healing and stuff. And so I don't know what ever happened with that circle. But there was one there. There's one in Australia, there's one in Germany. There are one or two in Puerto Rico. And offhand, I can't think where else, but there are some other ones. And then different places in the US. So we are one of those circles. Those were going on when Shaykh Nur was around and they were called the Circles of Nur at the time. This is when we were still part of the Helveti Jerrahi order based in Istanbul. We were forced to break with them because a more conservative Shaykh than Shaykh Muzaffer came in and he would not acknowledge the leadership of a woman. That [lack of acknowledgement] just wasn't cool, and Shaykha Fariha had tried everything. But she was our Shaykha. Shaykh Muzaffer made her a Shaykha. There's a green turban that's put on the person's head ceremonially when they're made a shaykh, and Shaykh Muzaffer put it on Shaykh Nur, and then he took it off Shaykh Nur and put it on Shaykha Fariha at the same time. So she was initiated at that same level. She didn't really take up her teaching responsibilities so much--she did some obviously--but she didn't do as much until he became ill and passed. Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:18 But the new leadership would not acknowledge her. They kept talking about her husband and he was not--that wasn't him at all. They were like, "Oh, please send your husband to talk to us." Well, no. So, regretfully, then, we did break from them and became the Nur Ashki Jerrahi order. And we consider our Pirs, our founding saints, as Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi, same as the Helveti Jerrahi, but also Shaykh Muzaffer and Shaykh Nur are also our Pirs. I forget what the question was. Oh, you asked how often? Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:50 Yes. A group from here went a few years ago, seven of us from here went to New York and spent I think a week there with them. And we stayed in the Dergah--if you’re a dervish there's a place you can stay upstairs, just on the mats or whatever--and had the most beautiful time. It was very transforming and a blessing for us. Karima Vargas Bushnell 46:11 The circle guides do get together, usually once a year or once every two years. I'm hoping it's going to be once a year. And we get together sometimes in New York in Yonkers where they have--this was Effendi's house that Shaykha Fariha and her husband at the time got for him. Big, beautiful house. And so we stay there in Yonkers. Or sometimes we meet at a retreat center in Albuquerque, a Catholic retreat center. So we meet different places once a year for maybe about five days. And then we're constantly in touch by email and whatnot. Chad Berryman 46:51 Could you speak a little bit about how you visualize or how you understand the Light Upon Light Center's place or role within kind of the social ecosystem of Minneapolis or even just of this neighborhood? Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:11 That's a great question. That's a really good question. And we're kind of funny. If you look at our website, we would seem to be extremely big and active, you know. But actually, I think we're in an expansion phase. So we had been kind of contracted, almost to the point where we would have had to either forget the whole thing or be reborn and change. And I think we've been reborn, and we're changing. We're a place--our vision and mission statement are kind of fun. I don't know if I can remember them just out of my head, which is kind of silly. Oh, that's extremely silly. I have it on a piece of paper over there, I'm going to walk over-- Chad Berryman 47:21 Absolutely. Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:23 Because it's very germane to your question. Yes, thank goodness, I have it. You can take one of these home. Okay, so, Light Upon Light Sufi center, our vision: "A vibrant, interconnected community of people growing on the spiritual path." Our mission: "Helping people awaken through Sufism and related mystical traditions." And when we first started, we had people from other traditions presenting, but always the mystics, we always were going for that. Not the cultural religion, or, you know, the religion that you go do it because you were taught it and it's comforting. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we always kind of went for the mystics [those who seek actual experience of God-Presence.] Karima Vargas Bushnell 48:33 So it is our goal to connect with other mystical paths. That actually is having an awakening with us right now, There's something exciting going on with that. There are some mystical Christians--and, again, my memory for details is not always the best--but they're right in the neighborhood, right nearby. And they used to come and do a thing here sometimes, and we'd go to theirs. And we've had Hindu folks come here, you know, practitioners of some forms of that. Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:07 It's funny, we're a borderland. We're also very open to gay people, transgender people, whatever. We're a place where everybody's welcome. And I think we're a place for people that might not be comfortable in some other places, you know. A thing we have in common with the Dergah al-Farah [our New York headquarters,] that I love is that we do have actual born Muslims that come, you know. [American Sufi groups normally don't.] Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:36 So over the years--this sounds like a tiny proportion, but actually we are pretty tiny. I mean, a big group for us over our whole life would be maybe 30-40 people. That's big. That's a big gathering, you know. So a lot of times you get six people, you get eight people. Sometimes the weather is bad, and you get two people or nobody, you know. Now where was I going? I do that. I get off on my jazz riff and I can't get back. It's like you get off on the branch and it's too thin out there and you can't get back. Oh, yes, I've lost my thread. Oh, how silly. Chad Berryman 50:12 Talking about connections with other mystics, the difference between you and Dergah alFarah and the born Muslims. Karima Vargas Bushnell 50:19 Oh, that was it, right. So over the years, we've had an Iraqi man and an Iranian woman who both used to come, and he still comes when he's in town. He's a dear friend. This is Sami Rasouli who is a well-known. He started something called the Muslim Peace Teams. And he goes back and forth between Najaf, where he's from, and here. He was here for many years. He had a beautiful restaurant. He was on the cover of the Twin Cities magazine right before 9/11, the month before 9/11 he was on there. And of course that just devastated his life, and he eventually wound up going back to Najaf and did work with the Sunnis and the Shias. A bunch of Shia people went to a Sunni town that had been devastated and picked up their garbage and did stuff for them, and people were hugging and dancing in the streets. And he's a lovely person. So he goes there and he lives there I guess most of the time, and then he comes back here and raises money and brings it over. And he brings groups back and forth. He's brought Iraqi artists and mayors and stuff here, and they're very active. So he used to come. Karima Vargas Bushnell 51:24 [The Iranian was] a delightful woman who was a mathematician and moved out to California to do her PhD in math for her teaching. We're still in touch. Two Turkish guys. One of them moved because of his wife's career, but he still keeps in touch. Another man that comes now sometimes. And now, on our Zoom zikr, we have a lovely sister from Cairo. Oh, and she's still in her--we have to stop and say a quick prayer for her because she is doing her PhD dissertation as we speak--not dissertation, defending her dissertation, if that is the right word--she's in front of her committee as we speak. Karima Vargas Bushnell 52:06 So, for Kabira, which is her Sufi name. Somebody just told me you only do the Fatiha for dead people, but not our order, we do 'em for anybody. So, for Kabira and her success right now with her committee may it all go well- Dearest Allah Al Fatiha Allahuma sali Allah, sayyidina Muhammad salallahu 'alahi wa salam. Bismillahir rahmanir rahim. Alhamdulilahi rabil 'alamin. Ar-rahmanir rahim. Maliki yaum ad-din. 'Iyaaka na'budu wa 'iyaaka nasta'iin. Ihdinas siratal mustaqim. Siratal ladhina 'an 'amta alayhim. Ghayril maghdubi 'alayhim wa la daaliin. Ameen. And asking the intercession of Hazrati Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi, Mother Amina Taslima, mother of our Pir, Muzaffer Ashki al-Jerrahi, his teacher Ibrahim Fahradeen al-Jerrahi, and Nur al-Anwar al-Malik al-Habib al-Jerrahi, please intercede and let this go well, oh beloveds, thank you so much, ya Allah, ya Hu! Didn't forget it, ameen. Okay, very good. I just noticed the time and realized she is in front of her committee as we speak. So I have no idea where I was! Chad Berryman 53:24 No, that's all right. I'm wondering, you know, having gotten a lot of background now, if you could--I'm sure there are many, and it's probably difficult to choose--but do you have, you know, one or a handful of favorite memories or moments in the history of even just the space right here? Karima Vargas Bushnell 53:52 Oh, that's very nice. By the way, sometimes our bigger events we have upstairs. They have a big room, they call it the Sunroom--you know, wooden floor for dancing and such. Oh, my goodness. That's funny. I don't think I can do that. It's just kind of a continuous flow. Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:18 I have wonderful memories. Sometimes somebody leaves, sometimes something happens and somebody leaves. So I have wonderful memories of a couple that wound up actually moving on. So it was heaven, and then it kind of turned to heartbreak. These things happen in organizations at times, you know. Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:37 Not a particular thing. But we've had, you know, Eid celebrations--we've had some powerful zikrs, dhikrullah, in here. We've had some wonderful Dances. Just, there's that moment where you touch in where you think you're leading something and you're trying to do a good job, and you're feeling like a fool and hoping you can get it right. And then all of a sudden, it's taken out of your hands. And it's Allah. And actually a lot of people, you know, we have some people that see visions and such, and people see a lot in here, they see a lot of beings. They see a lot of, you know, Sufis, and Sufi teachers or, "Well, I don't know who that was, and then there was this pillar of light came down,"--people see a lot of stuff in here. So there's a lot going on in this. And that's in Islam too, the tradition that the angels attend the zikrs. People see these things, and I don't see them, but I sense them very strongly. So it's more just not particular events, but that stepping into sacred space, which really feels different. I felt it a bit when we did the prayer just now. You know, and when you said ameen, I felt that, you know. So I think that would be more my answer to that. Chad Berryman 55:44 Thank you. That's awesome. You know, I am looking at the clock, and I know Bob has to get going. But, I just, you know, wanted to give you a chance if there's anything in general that you want to mention before we close. You know, I thank you again for sitting down with me. Because I feel that you've, maybe even without knowing it, demonstrated very well how just the story of one individual or of one, you know, one space is really many stories. And so, if you have anything you want to-- Karima Vargas Bushnell 56:27 I do have one thing, because we talked a lot about the past and maybe a little bit about the present, so looking at the present and the future. And I did feel as though last year we were kind of in a, you know, like a butterfly, you've got to--I don't know, you can't say "metamorphose". So what is the verb of that? I don't know, "morph"? They're saying morph now, which is cute. But, you know, you either have to die or you have to change. Something very special is happening with us. I am getting more and more drawn to the Nur Ashki Jerrahi dhikrullah and the Qur'an. I'm in love with the Qur'an. When I was doing the Dances, I had a dream one time. It was a little procession, a bunch of us going up some wooden stairs, it might have been the church we had the Dances in. And I think there were maybe seven of us there like that. That would be very symbolic if it was seven, and I think maybe it was. We each had a holy book, and I had the Qur'an. But we went up the stairs. And then there was a place where you couldn't get through anymore, it narrowed and then you couldn't go any further. So that was kind of interesting. But I had this Quran, it was like that was my job. It wasn't any better than any of the other holy books. But that was the one that I was carrying, you know, so I've really fallen in love with the Qur'an. So I'm really loving our zikr since we started having it on Zoom. When this horrible, horrible weather was going on, you know, nobody really was coming here. In fact, we started having it at our house so I wouldn't even have to go out at one point. And a couple times a couple people came, but we'd have one or two people in the room. And then we'd have five or six people coming over the internet. And of these people, one of them is a Bosnian Muslim woman from Sarajevo. And one of them is the woman that we just prayed for who is from Cairo and is an international student in Boulder. Karima Vargas Bushnell 57:01 And so it's such a blessing and the thing that to me connects with the Dergah al-Farah-which was the Masjid al-Farah back in Shaykh Nur's day--but the Dergah al-Farah, is that it's a mixture of Americans and Westerners who've been drawn to Sufism and born Muslims who either grew up Sufi--both of them had Sufi background, but they weren't necessarily raised with it, or at least the woman from Bosnia wasn't because you didn't hear too much [about Sufism in that time and place]. I mean, you've got some of it. Karima Vargas Bushnell 58:09 But you know, so they bring that. It's like the people bring different gifts, and it's the crosspollination that is wonderful. I almost said cross-pollinization, which would be very funny. So that's one thing. That's what's going on with me. Now, my husband--it's good I said all this earlier about the Hinduism and bhajan and kirtan and all of that--because kirtan, the singing of these Hindu chants, which I see it as, and Muslim friends I know that honor Hinduism, we see this as aspects of God. Well, they're either prophets--Hazrat Inayat Khan looked at these, Krishna, Rama and such, as prophets, because the Qur'an says prophets have been sent to every nation, you know, so they see it that way. Or you can look at them as aspects of God. But anyway, this kirtan, this chanting of these holy songs from Hinduism, has gotten quite big. Same way nobody had ever heard of yoga and all of a sudden everybody's doing yoga. Well, it's not to that level, but quite big in the Twin Cities, quite a thing. And yet still, many people haven't heard of zikr, of dhikrullah. Karima Vargas Bushnell 59:34 So, the retreat I'm going to this weekend, and I will finish up--I too am aware of Bob. Bob is the cat, we didn't say this on the air before: he's a cat, he's got to get to the vet. But the people here, many people here in sort of the spiritual, the generalized spiritual community, are much more familiar with kirtan than they are with zikr. So the weekend I'm going to this weekend is a Sufi/ Yogi weekend, kirtan and dhikrullah and practices from both traditions up near Duluth. Pretty exciting. Well, my husband has gotten really into this and he's a musician, and he is a fine singer, songwriter, guitar player. He's taking it really to a level of expertise that's impressive. I play in an Irish band, by the way, and if I want to stop people, I say, "I'm Muslim, and I play Irish music. I play Irish fiddle." And then that breaks all their stereotypes. Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:00:34 But anyway, he is starting a thing like that down here--and this is going to be happening inshallah pretty soon in the future--have these kirtan/zikr meetings. That's a real blessing. So these are the new things that are going on for us. I'm going deeper into the Islamic Sufism and he is spreading wider into the interfaith mysticism and of course, we're both very down with both, too. So there. Thank you so much for asking me that. That's everything I have to say, I think. Chad Berryman 1:01:04 Well, thank you so much again, I really do appreciate it. Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:01:06 Very welcome.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Hodo Dahir, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Fidelina Xinico: Today's April 5TH of 2019 at Augsburg University today we're interviewing Hodo Dahir: Hodo Dahir. Fidelina Xinico: The first question that I, like I was thinking about is how did you decided to what university you wanted to go to? Hodo Dahir: When I first was deciding on la...
Show more Fidelina Xinico: Today's April 5TH of 2019 at Augsburg University today we're interviewing Hodo Dahir: Hodo Dahir. Fidelina Xinico: The first question that I, like I was thinking about is how did you decided to what university you wanted to go to? Hodo Dahir: When I first was deciding on land to university, I thought about the cost, place, as well as the communities that I'll be part of it. So before coming to Augsburg, actually went to Community College for a couple of years, like, almost a year and a half or two years, where I finished my community for associate degree there, and then I transferred to Augsburg in 2016. And the only reason why I was able to come to Augsburg, it was because of the scholarship offering. I don't even know before that prior to where Augsburg was, where was where it was located. I mean, I've seen the A when I was passing on the highway, but I didn't really think much about it. Fidelina Xinico: Oh, what is your major? Hodo Dahir: My major is biology, Fidelina Xinico: biology Hodo Dahir: and a minor in religion. Fidelina Xinico: So you mentioned that you had a scholarship through Augsburg like, do you want to talk a little bit more about it? Hodo Dahir: Yeah. So the scholarship is very competitive, initially submitted my application on early November, and I didn't get it, like fully accepted until late February. So that whole time there is a curriculum of where you've been assessed about how their Phases that you have to go through phase one, phase two. And then phase three is the last one, where you have a 30-minute interview with someone that you share about your life. But as well, as you come on campus, you participate some group dynamic work, and they see you how you are as a leader, because this scholarship is all about leader and helping the students coming from misrepresented as well as financially challenging families. And that's what I did, I applied for it and I was lucky enough to get as cadre two of six here at Augsburg but I'm the first undergraduate in my Cadre graduate and with cadre one instead of graduate in cadre two so it's a little exciting. I'm and it's also a little bit sad because they are my family now, you know? Fidelina Xinico: Yeah. So yeah. Congratulations! Could you share a little bit more about your experience here at Augsburg like, how do you feel when you are around in the community? Hodo Dahir: Augsburg has definitely been one of my favorite places to actually learn, grow as a person. Because I'm challenged both as a student and as well as person, one of my rama of experience for sure in Augsburg in one word that I would describe as belonging, or finding that belonging from the moment that I walked in at Augsburg for I was Welcome with a smile that was led with, with compassionate and caring by Pastor SonJa. And just even the people that are around me, every single day were challenging me as a person and anticipating them for me to do great things. And I was expecting the same thing from them. And that would just felt like we were in a community that was helping each other, rather than a community that's putting down each other. And as I was got involved in different communities here, and I get to participate, let's say, different organization level, different positions on campus. And as I get to know people on a personal level, I realized we're not that all much different. What we are is what we are afraid is the change that's happening. And we're fearful of what we do not know. And before people know me, they think they only know me of because of my smile is on my funny jokes that I make sometimes. All that all that funny. But they once people get to know me on a personal level, they say while you're doing one person who cares and understands. And I think having an open heart and open mind is something that I learned from my faith. You know, it's like, you got to be very open to others, as well as have a core commitment that that drives your life. Fidelina Xinico: Wow. Yeah, definitely. I am impressed of all your responses. So you actually touched a little bit about like the next question, can you share How your faith or theology have shaped who you are? Hodo Dahir: Yeah. And adding interested a little bit of to add on that I think about my faith as a young Muslim woman, my faith and never always had to question it. I mean, there's sometimes people questioned my faith, but never do I ever have to say, this is wrong, because of my faith. I mean, because of my faith is in jeopardy and that I need to save myself. I learned at a young age, how to go to school, start picking up the books, start learning the Qur’an, and the, the prophet [Arabic], and his stories and all of that. So that gave me an idea of a young age. And as I grew up, and as I picked up their practices, and I try to be as best Muslim person I could be, I start picking up some other good habits and smiling is one of the prophets favorite thing to do is, there's a saying that the Prophet says peace be upon him smile, smile is even a charity. So when you smile, you're able to help others lift up their life. And I do that every day. And it's an act of kindness, but it's also an act of charity. And that's how shape me of who I am. And every day when I'm walking out there, I'm not only representing my family and my community, but by faith. Imagine you are in the marketplace, and you are the most. looked at piece of like, I understand, I see you're a diamond and you're shining. So the way the diamonds presented is how people perceive it. So the way that I present myself is the way they're going to get out of my religion. So I say my actions and my, my practices is in how I try to embody it is by showing them by example, rather than letting them have this misrepresentation that they put us out there on social media, which is not true 95% of it. Fidelina Xinico: So you were mentioning about showing in representing who you are and also I kind of tied it to different organizations. Yeah. Could you talk little bit more about it? Hodo Dahir: Definitely. I think it's important to show up. I think the most important thing about anything in life that I learned so far here is you need to show up. And well how you show up is important. So me showing up was being an active member, different organizations, international student orgs you're part of it almost part of it as well try to be there as much as they can ASA at the Asian Student Association. The Augsburg Lanit American Group the pan Africanist is the Muslim Student Association, and some other like, for the STEM majors that I'm part of it. And some of the math groups. I mean, like, there's too many groups around campus that you will all be part of it. But if they don't see anybody who looks like me, and if I don't show myself and then make sure that others can show up to and be part of their lives as much as they can, because the way you interact with them is the way they get out of it. Well, you your first impression is sort of how you interact with them. And if I'm not involved, and I'm not getting to know other people as well, I'm closing my mind, my mind from getting to know someone else. Amazing, you know? Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's amazing. So, for you what it means to be Muslim in even more specifically here in Minneapolis, Minnesota, Hodo Dahir: Minneapolis, a unique place to be a Muslim, especially for the past few years, we've had a lot of transformation, transformation from being having that having a voice in in a political aspect to having a voice now as a congress Ilhan Omar representing our community. And Nelson Keith Ellison being the attorney general. So having big key figures in the community that are part of it, the change makers in the community was a big thing for me. But what it means to be a Muslim, it just being the best person I am, and showing up as best as they can. And try to my best to at least people have come across who are not convinced themselves are not good people, to at least show them the genuinely that's within my heart and be authentic with them. Because being fake and being appealing to them. And just having this reshape thing, it does not work on people. And I think what people do not know about the Muslim community here in Minneapolis, is we are tight group, will come from a collective society, meaning that we'd like to stay together we'd like to work together, we is all about togetherness. Whereas America is more most of the American communities is more about individualism is I get to do this on my own, I get to accomplish all of this my own. So having that community help each other and uplift each other. Sometimes community also can hurt each other. But it is how we overcome those and how we respond to those hurt, through love and through community activism or I just really helping being solidarity with one another, for other communities are also hurting is how I see our Muslim community thriving here at Minneapolis Minnesota. Fidelina Xinico: Well, I don't know if there is something else that you want to mention, because like the next question is like, could you give an example of how you put your faith into actions, but I feel like you already have given some examples of who you are as a person. So the next one is, what is the most memorable act that Augsburg has done in order to support Muslim students. Hodo Dahir: So last year, on April Fool's Day was this post and statement that was going on our around social media that was calling an act of violence against Muslim community. So it was like April, Muslim Fools Day, sort of like you, if you pick up someone else's hijab, you get certain points. If you shove someone in front of the train, you get the most pointless if you kill a Muslim person, you will get certain points for fun. And so what I did was I wrote a letter and like that sort of a bleed to the larger community, I'm letting them aware of what was happening. I shared with everyone and what the How to algebra community, or Augsburg, what they've done in support of the Muslim students is they were able to host a moment for the Muslims at the campus ministry at during the chapel, the president send a letter to the professors, faculty and staff and making them aware that today is it's a fearful day for to be a Muslim, and I feel like everyday, it is a fearful day to be a Muslim. Because the way how social media has portrayed us and how hatred has been perpetuated all around the world. But seeing that solidarity amongst my friends, my faculty, my professors, and just even in the larger administration was just like, wow, they actually care about us, you know, and they are sending men only these letters, but like, what it was just within a minutes, like, I send a letter, was it a night of Monday, and by Tuesday morning, I'm getting response from people like thank you all for this and that the President responding. He personally reached out to me and that was touching, but I think we all do an active as much as we can to support one another. So appreciate it. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's Thank you for sharing that example with us, Hodo Dahir: There’s many other women we would love to hear. I could tell you Fidelina Xinico: That sounds really scary to like, you know, people trying to harm other people. Hodo Dahir: Yeah. Fidelina Xinico: So what would you like to add or see a change in Augsburg? Hodo Dahir: So this year as I was an active I was an interfaith scholar. And as an interfaith scholar, I realized the importance of dialogue and how we need to continue this conversation. And not only as a scholarly, our responsibility, our responsibility is that we need to create more spaces of intentional interfaith. And I mean that with intention of having a space dedicated to the interfaith just interfaith work, whatever that could be having a interfaith Friday nights interfaith food night or an faith led workshops every week, and some, someone who's leading, but it's not only for the Abrahamic religions that are going to be represented, I will, I wish to hope to see that at least we all learn from one another's faith, spirituality and philosophical practices that we all have differently. So that's one thing I hope to see at Augsburg change, and I think is something doable. I wish I had a little longer time maybe out of five, we had the opportunity to accomplish that. But that's another goal of mine is like, this semester, I was able to hit the ground and get it, was shortened time and graduated. It's really hard to do it. All of it. Everything. Fidelina Xinico: Yes, for sure. But at the same time, you just like, as you said, everything is like works as a community. So yeah, even though I feel like you feel like you did not accomplish it. Other person can totally do it and You have been doing like amazing things, too. So you can like, keep doing a through your life. Yeah, I wish you luck Hodo Dahir: Thank you so much. Fidelina Xinico: So even in this semester, we have been learning about Malcolm X. I don't know if you have heard. Does it sound familiar? Hodo Dahir: Elijah Muhammad. Yeah, Fidelina Xinico: yeah. So it was represented as important figure during the Civil Rights Movement. And it was because he was an American Muslim minister in human rights and activists. So yeah, could you like, talk a little bit what you know about him? Hodo Dahir: Malcolm X is a very important figure in the Muslim community, especially the African Muslim community, who are here. I think is we sometimes underestimate the importance of his work, because what we are mostly tend to look at is Martin Luther, Dr. Martin Luther work, which is through nonviolence. That's, that's amazing. That's another important work. But when we're talking about the civil rights figures, I think both of them have done a tremendous work to, to create this, not only this for other Africans to kind of really recognize your rights and all of it personally. So I was this spring break, I was in Alabama. Alabama is very down way in the south and very conservative state, very practiced faith background. So a lot of baptism church and baptism. This is one of the very waiver conservative churches that I've heard of it at this far. And walking around there and hearing the stories visiting the Civil Rights Museum. All I saw in that civil rights, museum was. everything about Martin Luther, barely anything about representation of Malcolm X, I sort of felt like, at the end of the day, our faith is what if you're not very much sort of associated with Christianity, you're sort of left out. so Malcolm X is recognized a lot in the Muslim community in the African American communities. But he's sometimes forgotten his kind of left in the shadow behind. And this is one of my favorite quote that he said that I, I, once I was reading his biography and things that he was saying, he said, the future belongs to those who prepare it today, And I try to reference that to every time I'm like thinking about my education. And I'm like, What am I going to do today? Ho Hodo, Remember what Malcom X said the future belongs to those who prepare it today. I'm going to prepare it today. So there is to Malcolm X that you'll see, you'll see. Pre-Islam, Malcolm X and post-Islam, Malcolm X, two completely different man. One is more violent, like let's, you know, let's get our rights through our fist and our, our hard work and all of that. And post slum is more like, let's use our reasoning this be less eradicate all racism, by working together and bringing light to the people's heart. Rather than and I think that's why he got killed it was because he was no longer advocating for violence. Fidelina Xinico: Yes. Okay. Thank you. I think we are almost done. So is there anything that you want to add or feel, but you did not, the chance to share with us Hodo Dahir: I think the only thing I what to add is keep going, keep on going everywhere you are life, you know, I just think it's a matter of working hard. But as a person of faith, I would say have your faith aware your faith in your heart. practice every single day. And remember, that no matter wherever you are, you're protected by God. And do not be fearful of the unknown. Be anticipating of the unknown. So I don't know if I can say anymore. Fidelina Xinico: Thank you so much. Hodo Dahir: No problem. Thank you. I'm really glad someone is documenting this it's important. Fidelina Xinico: So what city were you born in? Could you describe your childhood home and where it was? Hodo Dahir: That is a good question. So I was born in [Speaking in Arabic] Ethiopia, in East Africa near closer to Somalia that actually Kenya. My childhood home our same since I grew up in a refugee camp environment. More like less of, like, fancy home more like a second home, you know. And it was passed down from my grandparents, to my parents. So it was like, Wow, there is memories here down there. Now, you know, I never thought about it before. And it was in the middle of the city. So you could see people going in and out of the city when they coming back from bigger city as compared to smaller cities. So that's what that's where I was born my childhood. But we had everything like outside, there's stuff to play, and it was closer to school. Yeah, Fidelina Xinico: How close it was from your school?How long did it take you to get there? Hodo Dahir: five to eight minute walk from my school. Yeah, Fidelina Xinico: that doesn't sound far Hodo Dahir: Yeah, it wasn't that far. Fidelina Xinico:So what did you enjoy doing as a child? Hodo Dahir: I did you enjoy as a child playing sports. That was little bit difficult for my family, because I was a girl that's supposed to be playing sports, because all the sports that I want to play the boys were playing and my parents, like, Don't play with the boys. And then I'm like, okay, but I want to play soccer. No, girls don't play soccer. And I think is more like, the more they said no. And the more I want to do it. Fidelina Xinico: you mentioned like about Sports where you more into to soccer than any other sport? Hodo Dahir: Yeah, soccer was just so fun, because everyone is watching and playing it, I don't like to do it too. I don't want to be left out. And I was good at it. So I was like, I want to play as much as I can. So I would tell my cousins and my brothers to Let's Play out so in the backyard of our house, and would kicked balls. You know, I would have beat all the boys in the group and they'll be like next time we are not going to play with you Hodo. Fidelina Xinico: So then the next question, did you attend them religious services? And what were your earliest memories? Hodo Dahir: Yeah, I used to attend regularly a religious service. So that could vary from attending Friday prayers to our prayers to attending [Speaking Arabic] , or a small circle of learning about the Quran as well as the life of the Prophet. Like earliest memories, I would say... first year, kindergarten, like four or five years old, and I started going because my dad used to read the Quran at our house all the time. And then there's some people that would come with some lights, and they would just read Quran together. And I'm like, that sounds cool, I want to do it, then I'm like, actually, the best place to do that is to go to the masjid or the mosque. And you could just spend your time there, I know, bother you. So the school that will go for my religious classes, was closer to the masjid that was a house, which is like 10 minutes away from me. So I would walk there in the morning or earlier and spend some time in the masjid, just reading the Quran. And that's how I learned most of the time south by Arabic. Because I spend more time reading the Quran. And understand better, I don't want to someone else's interpretation to cloud my own belief. So I wanted to have better understanding and clear connection was my faith. So I started to learn the Arabic. So I can understand very, but so I would attend Juma prayers, and I would have to know [speaking arabic] classes and then I would attend my classes time. But also some smaller like religious services. Like, Hi, I'm of course, old days, I will do that.And I was almost like, self funded. Fidelina Xinico: And when you were to those different places where you going by yourself, or it was like a family. Hodo Dahir: So the part of the community that I was a part of it was most predominantly Somalis and Muslims. So it was it felt like everybody was doing it. Yeah. So it's like having mass every Sunday for some of our Catholic friends, everybody has delivered. So it was like that for us to as well. It was more of a regular services that was happening in the community, and that you couldn't miss out. I mean, there's some troubled kids who are not come on to some other stuff. But that was something that I was working on side. But I don't know, like, even my even my friends were like, oh, why do you have to go to the services, even if you don't have to go over like, but I want to learn more. And I think I understand that at the time. I didn't know why I want to learn more. But I just knew I wanted to learn more. Yeah. Fidelina Xinico: So could you describe a little bit more in your parents in what they were liking? What did they do? Hodo Dahir: Yeah, sure, my parents want to begin, to be honest, why? My understanding and my parents have changed over the years. It's it's transformational thing that I'm trying to understand. Because I don't know, I'm still trying to understand how my parents work together, you know. So both my mom and my dad get married at a young age, they had met a young age as well. And there's seven kids of us total. So I'm the oldest one. And I feel like they had to grow up so fast sorely that they had to miss out all of their youth know, their, their teen years that they didn't have to build, they didn't have enough time to really have fun and all that. And then as the years went by, I felt like I was molded to be like them, you know, be a lot more responsible at a young age. Come to understand, like the folly and part of what I didn't realize that until now. Well, I remember that I don't have kids at a younger age, but I'm like, I've definitely see the responsibility that I carry is similar to the ones they died, you know. And so my mom was the one word was the breadwinner of our house. My mom worked more than my dad while we were in Ethiopia. And that's really surprising to me, because usually is the opposite. The mountains work in our communities, as well as the water is just sort of like the race kid. That's why. So my mom is a businesswoman. She knows what she's doing. She's always doing what she's doing. And that's super cool. I learned I you know, but then I don't know, like, since I haven't seen my dad, almost 10 years. I know. I feel like our connection has sort of lost, but delirious is that bloggers, Terry, from our faith, to have a connection with our parents, even though they're far away to close, it doesn't matter. Even did it back to your good to you. They still be parents. I think it's a, it's an important thing to realize how much your parents have sacrificed for you and what they've done for you. And not take it for granted. But also to learn their mistakes. And to grow up from it, instead of just being like, okay, bye. So yeah, I don't know. Fidelina Xinico: And so do you think that your family play a role when you join a religion? Hodo Dahir: So, I grew up in my religion, but definitely having some of my parents or some life communities, and family member, being either religious or moral and religious was sort of like, important to them. But for me is always about building that connection with my Lorde, you know. And as I grew up, but as I learned, more or less, I was just like, this makes sense, you know? And God chooses, what family you born with, you don't choose who is your families. Same thing you choose your religion, your body, is how you accepted matter, the bad, the good. that determines how well you can adapt. Yeah. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's very Good. I think I can I can see that. Hodo Dahir: Yes. Fidelina Xinico What is your favorite memory of your mother? Hodo Dahir:My mom, I would say, for the past nine year and a half, I've seen her work every single day, my family to provide us enough food. The clothes that we wear sometimes, and all of those, you know. So my favorite memory of her is like when she comes home. And I've done something good, like clean the house and cook food or take care of the kids in the beginning. Because I'm on campus right now. But when I'm home, I will do some of those stuff. And when she says this, and they'll be like, Hodo, wow, so my daughter is back. That's my kind of favorite memory. Fidelina Xinico: So did you mentioned that you have like seven siblings. How that has been for you? Hodo Dahir: It's been a crazy roller coaster. So the seminars have like, strong headed, of course, they're like, wait, I want to do this, I want to work on this, I want to work less, I wouldn't have this. And living together has been like, it's just too much. Like, especially being the oldest of all, like, you have to really create path for them to work with. But at the same time, most importantly, learn how to lead them. And it's important to sometimes be vulnerable. But other times you're not always trying to make mistakes in front of them. And so have three brothers and four sisters. I mean, two brothers and three sisters, and so on for sister. And it's just like, right now what I see is that we're all growing up, and they're growing up as well. And they're starting to realize, wow, the work that Hodo has left like created for us. And they're like, Thank you Hodo, Ho your welcome thanks for appreciating my work and they're starting to dream like they help it out of the house and all that I really have good relationship my younger sister because she she doesn't tell me she looks up to me. But she does, I can tell there's a lot of things she's been doing is like literally almost the same thing that we've done. And she's like, I don't want to be like if doctor or anything like that. But that's totally fine. You don't have to. But then she's involved at all the groups that are did, how it got into work, and all of that. I'm like, Yes, go for it. I'm not going to tell you don't do it as well as a good degree what you can do it to do it. So, and my other siblings, we the boys that I usually connect through sports will play video games or basketball together. They are taller than me sometimes there are two of them. So and when my two cousins join us and I are playing a moment like the one be overplayed. But I still like try to play as much as I can when I'm playing soccer at least decent enough. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah.So when you do all this fun stuff, it is like at home when, when everybody is or to get together on a special days. Hodo Dahir: So rooms full time is rolling a little bit difficult to like, when you're at home, you do homework, you work, or he busy with something does. But once in a while, like some long weekends that all of the families are home, we're just like, Oh yeah, you guys wouldn't do this, let's do this. A lot of times, you'll fly around events like, oh, let's go watch the Timberwolves game like together. And then we'll plan that ahead of time if we wanted to call it. And then we'll do it another time. Just like, as time goes, we just do it what we can. And I think those those are the fun stuff, it's tough, because you don't you don't plan for having fun, the fun comes when you don't expect it. And I think is needed, because especially if you come in from school, like you work so hard for it. And then they work in our school, and everybody just so busy, they need a break from something, you know, and that's a good thing for all of us. Fidelina Xinico: If there were something in your past, you were able to go back and do differently, what would that be? Hodo Dahir: A good question.What I would do differently, if I were to go back to the past, is finished on time the Quran, I feel like I miss out a lot. religious aspect, because I haven't finished the Quran and it just it really bothers me a lot not knowing everything. And the reason why I was not able to finish it on time, is because I've got a responsibility increased in the household. And school demanded more, more of my time, I just couldn't handle all of like everything that was happening at one time. So I sort of put it on pause, but I'm still learning slowly like. it is a chapter maybe a month or a years and it takes me to learn it. And instead of me learning it monthly, I would have done it before I would learn all these 10 chapters, or our memorize the whole Jesus, which would be like, one or two, at least every month, I will memorize that site back to my professor, my teachers. Okay, yeah, let's continue on to the next one. And that's how we accumulate and increase memorization. And I just haven't had that because you need to take time, but also. I just don't want to memorize and just say words and without feeling, you know. So my Arabic is not as strong as you used to be before due to learning different languages, of course. And so I also wish that I would have really stick to it and spoke more often what Arabic. Fidelina Xinico Hmm. Hodo Dahir: So I could have at least a solid foundation of what to expect when I am reading the Quran. Fidelina Xinico: So by now that you already finished the quarter or are you still working on it , Hodo Dahir: I've done I've memorized the least. I want to say almost a 10. Just 10 chapter. And there's nobody there. There. Fidelina Xinico: But you're working on it. That's something good. And do you think that there are people that can help you to do that here? Hodo Dahir: Yes, I still go sometimes [Speaking Arabic]. We can but depends on like, whether it's like busy weekend or small, we can have a teacher who are just like with that, okay, this is how much I can hurt or work this weekend. Just give me that amount of work out get back to you. So he would give me two pages or page or five pages of the Quran, learn that recite back to you. So depending on how much work that I have to do, I feel like I can do it. That's how much I'll accept it. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, that's good. Because you are working in your own time. And it is not like you're pushing back. It is. Hodo Dahir: Yeah, Fidelina Xinico: you are working on it as you can In your own opinion, what benefits does religion have for you? Hodo Dahir: So that's a good question. I think there's a lot of benefits that religions have, especially my own religion. we are talking about Islam here, I think the benefits that it brings is, for me, I learned a lot self discipline, self discipline, especially during Ramadan, where we have to abstain from drinking water and eating anything food for sunset, I meant from sunrise to sunset. And that takes you a lot of a lot of effort and a lot of mental training and a lot of self discipline and self control to do it. But also has to be moved around conviction to believe in what you're doing is actually a great thing. And health speaking those benefits include, better , better body and as the body adapts to the changes, it takes well, and you have a good health overall. And image sometimes people don't realize this, but while you're fasting, you're cleansing your body. But then also your soul. Because when you're fasting, not only are you eating for food, and drink, but you're also stealing from all the bad things in the world. Like for instance, let's say you you use the curse will often when you're fasting, it's something tells you, you can't do that. Don't be that mean person, like let's say you you just you just love both others. But then if you can't do that when he fasting. Also, the for better itself, pigs, pigs are having alcohol. Science also has proven that both welcome at very bad for your health, especially peaks are very, they have a lot of diseases that can take back to how they care about us they know this is there is a reason why God has net to you. And that's not to be the other people who are eating it are like bad people, it's just that they will take made a different choice than ours now. That's totally fine, you know, people who are called to die with different choices. And it gives them different places, as well as alcohol. Alcohol is one of the costly death in many countries saying that it could be one of those people they made they make mistakes, because oh, I was drunk. That doesn't give, it's not an excuse that you were drunk, you chose to get drunk. And that became the excuse. So at the end of the day, it's about choices. And if I chose not to drink, because God told me not to drink. And I still make same mistakes as they've done it, it just doesn't make a difference. But if I choose not to drink it, take care of my body. Because my body is a gift from my God. And it's a gift, give someone gives you a valuable gift, you don't just throw it away and discard it and like just use it badly you take care of it. If you believe in that God and you care about it, you will take care of it as best as you can. Because one day we would all need to leave this body, this body would be like it would definitely decay at all of those. But then when we really selected back in the day of judgment, you know, bottom will speak against you. It would say Hodo use these hands for healthy stuff. Hodo use these hands for helping others. Hodo use these is for learning the most you could or at least looking something that you shouldn't be looking at. All of those stuff would come against me of the neighbor judgment because my body is a gift, my lord. Therefore, if I the way I take care of it will reflect on me. So I think those are good benefits of religions have at all. We have the sick cat or charity, it's out looking for charity, as a Muslim that you give some percent of your wealth to the poor. And that's somewhere keep the communities from that happen to severe poverty but as well as you don't have to heavily power for people. But still you do have all those and they don't exist, but at least as much as he can you help it. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah. Fidelina Xinico: So what misconceptions are there about Muslims that you want to change? Hodo Dahir: There is a lot. Fidelina Xinico: Like, probably just the three main ones. Hodo Dahir: So this is currently in a job. We live in 21st Century Social Media it is an important one. It's always it's always disheartening to see a media platform that's misleading people thinking that. Muslim women especially, who worry jab are oppressed. That's not true. Before a press move at warning, opposed it long time ago, was it? No, we don't want to wear this. Why was the wearing 140 plus years later on? When were are educated, if it was oppressive, and we are not fool. But yet people in western countries have the idea that because we cover ourselves we are Oppressed, when we are really, My faith liberates me from all the subjective sexual attachment that my body would bring from guys in members that I don't have it sometimes some people will look at me, but it's not my fault, because I look at what am I wearing, or because of the way I want it is because they chose to look at me the same way that a girl also walking down the street, the same way they would look at her, they chose to look at her. I'm not attracting anyone is that people have choices to either look or not look, we're told more often lower gates. Specially, the opposite gender when they are on each other. It's because of temptation out there. So it's so risky. So by lowering your gates, you raise your light, shine, at least minimize the amount of temptation out there. But really thinking well, and there's another hypocrite to think about, trying to liberate us, when they actually are oppressing us. There's some countries like France, let's say for instance, for civil to take off the hijab, and the name of our liberating you, but it's not actually oppressing you, I'm giving you the choice of what she should, she should not do. So I really kind of wish people would understand the meaning behind the hijab. That hijab literally just means like, cover, and be modest. And sometimes those can be defined definitely for person to person. But at the end, the day is like we're covering our chest, our face, our hair, those are made. from cold stone with our weather is hot or cold in the winter, summer, it doesn't matter, we're still covered. And we don't do it because of our husbands or what fathers or brothers we do because of the sake of our Lord. Like my parents were not forced me if I would have understood the importance of a hijab, like old man accepted, because it would have not made sense to me. When I was at a young age,I started understand it that's like, it's about it's like an umbrella that keeps you protected from the rain, from the sun and all those. For me it's like a reminder, constant reminder for me like is what I would places are you representing normal faith? Be Will you be protected by God. So that's, that's how I see it out. There also, the idea that all Muslims are terrorists, and all Muslims are terrorists, there will be at least 1.3 or 4 billion the last word terrorist. So generalize the US on actions that have individuals who are bad apples of our faith, and attaching dots, I think it's a very bad idea. Every every community, every religion, and every society has always had someone who are bad, you know, like, so what was that feeling? You know, these people are not representing their faith, they're representing on their own. There are not after my faith, if they were endanger the best interest of my faith, they will not matter what the things they do. The people that get the most hurt, are not Muslims, are the Muslims community, they get killed the most. They get backlash the most. So when we It doesn't make sense to take that actually turn big. There's, it's helping you fail. Actually, if you kill yourself, if you kill yourself, God does not forgive you. Because you gave you that forgiveness by as a gift and you're wasting it away. So the Day of Judgment you will be asked and you will be heavily judged against you. And Quran says if you save what he will be with like, as if you have saved all humanity. If you kill one human being is like you have kill all humanity. So how does that make sense to take that killing people? This is easy as just like that. So those are my fields confession. But I will. Yeah, those are the main questions that I wanted to ask you. Fidelina Xinico: Yeah, thank you so much for sharing more about yourself. with. Hodo Dahir: I'm glad so
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Dienabou M'boup and Nasrin Hassan, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Nasrin 0:03 For me, I think it's okay. So I came here around '09. Before then obviously I was young, living in a different country, I think. So I was born in Ethiopia, right. So that's where I was. That's where I was raised for like, until I was like, eight or nine. During the time, there w...
Show more Nasrin 0:03 For me, I think it's okay. So I came here around '09. Before then obviously I was young, living in a different country, I think. So I was born in Ethiopia, right. So that's where I was. That's where I was raised for like, until I was like, eight or nine. During the time, there was a lot of like Muslims there. I think the second population was Muslims. I t hink I just saw Islam as a culture. And obviously, my mom would teach me like, what not to do and what to do, I never really ,because I was young, I never really questioned my religion, then it was just like, okay, it's part of like, this is what you are. And then when I came here, is when, I think also like growing up, like when you reach a certain age, you kind of have to, like, dress differently, just like puberty, you have a woman has to dress different. And this and that, that also, like that kind of played a part where when I was here, I kind of would start like, I didn't want to wear hijab, you know, there would be a period where like, it was such a culture to me that I would just put like, I would have my scarf, because my mom didn't care either. So I just have my scarf on my neck and just keep it there just in case if I see my relatives you know, because my relatives might say something and Oh, yeah, so when my relatives were there I was just like, you know, because you never know there might be there at home or they'll see you in the street or whatever, you know, so just that when I actually started to like, care about just the dressing even though I still wasn't like practicing, like I knew how to pray I knew my like, like the Islamic part. But practicing wise, I didn't start, like I just the physical maybe like so I started like in seventh grade. That's when I started dressing. And that was the main reason was also like my sisters did it around that age. So I did around that age. And I didn't also I just like, I don't know, I just wanted to look like my sisters, I guess. And then I started to question myself. And I think part of the privilege in America is because there are like so many different cultures and religions, people question. That gives you an excuse to question your own religion and research it because if you're doing something, and people ask you and you don't know what you're doing, it's just something stupid, you know what I mean? And hijab when I started wearing it. A lot of people especially older professors, friends and this and that, so I had the responsibility to research and learn more. If I wasn't here and let's say I lived in an all muslim country, I don't think I would ever really research or think about it. It was just be like, you know, yeah, so um, yeah, that kind of hit. And then I was just like, I got more into it, the more I researched because I just researched hijab. Other things kind of popped off. So like, I would get more information about Islam and this and that, where it was before where it was more like now it's like, wow, that's my religion. Like, the purpose is there. Even with high school Even then, even though I was getting more information? I wasn't really practicing. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 3:20 And you looked like you were practicing Nasrin 3:21 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yes. And I think a lot of Muslims kind of do that. And there's also a lot of Muslims that that actually do practice because we have the privilege and the access to learn Islam, where other people can'yt you know what I mean? So, so yeah, so I think in muslim America probably is just like, like, I had the choice to do a lot of things like I said, like, let's say I have, I had a period where I didn't really care. I still had turban work hijabi or whatever. But like, I didn't really practice and whatever. I live in my mom who then all that, but it wasn't like a forest because there's no, no like, like, cultural.So it's kind of like your own journey, which is kind of good in some way. Because it kind of helps you find your own self. And like, instead of like, giving, like, Oh,this is what I have to do, or this and that, you know what I mean, so I don't know, I feel like being Muslim in America is a great privilege because I get to find my own religion and fall in love with it. Where other people don't play the clip their cultural, you know, Islamic culture, like a lot of people put Islam and culture together and then put their opinions on me. And I don't get that and I'm so privileged that I can actually learn Islam for its true purpose like Islam as Islam, you know what I mean? And it's not so like, it's just, I fell in love with it, the more I learn, and the more I just want to be like, yeah, I want to get to this point in that sort of like, Oh, no, this is not my thing was just like, I don't know. Like, I have. Dienabou 5:14 I agree. 100%. Just because, okay, my upbringing and like, a lot of West Africans even in America, West African Muslims? In America, it's very, very different to East African. Like, like,experienced as a Muslim in America, and even back home. Because East Africa, a lot of them, even though they mix like Islam and culture, they still care about the hijab, they still care about prayer and all of that they still care. And like compared to West Africa, a lot of West African Muslim countries, like, they don't pray, they're just Muslim by name, I guess. So like, so like, my parents, when they grew up, they didn't grow things like my grandpa, like, he was like an Imam and everything. He was like, whatever. But then, like, you're young, you just like,are like you do what you want to do you know what I mean and like, they would go out, they would do stuff, like they wouldn't really practice I guess you can say and like maybe sometimes they would pray. Sometimes they would fast when Ramadan, when Ramadan came. And then they would like, you know, have eat or whatever. But then it was more, it was more like culture, like culture overpowered their religion more. So like, I was born here. So then like growing up my parents, like we didn't really like they wouldn't pray when they came here. Like my mom didn't start wearing Hijab until like,almost 10 years ago, and she's been here 23 years, whatever. So almost 10 years ago. But so basically, like what I'm trying to say is, like, I agree with her that coming here, like being here, it's easier for me to like practice even though there's there's obviously been a there's been Nasrin 7:19 a lot of struggles are a lot of temptations, Dienabou 7:22 exactly. But then, like, that's what, at the end of the day, that's what wearing the hijab is for. The hijab is like, they said hijab is a jihad. Like Jihad as in like a sacrifice for like, it's not like oh, boom boom we're gonna fight jihad but jihad as in like, Nasrin 7:38 inner struggle, Dienabou 7:39 inner struggle like me, I'm going out here. Oh, yeah, maybe like somebody is gonna say something because I look this way, but I'm going to do it because of my love for Allah you know and my love for my religion. But it's, it's better for me. Because the culture trump's it and even like, when I go back home, like, I learned hijab to pull hijab like this. I will be I will even wear like, you know, I will wear like a tank top of whatever, anything, but if I wear full hijab like this, they're like, why are you trying to be like they say, Wahhabia. Yeah, the extreme, whatever, you know what I mean? Why are you trying to be extreme? Why you want to know, from like, Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 8:18 I'm wearing a tank top right now Dienabou 8:19 Right? Like, they care so much about they care so much about like what others say, but then like, here it's so just like, it just gives me an opportunity. Like Nasrin said like, look into what Islam really is without the culture aspect. Like we make our own culture around this and I'm like when we're in America, the people that are in America we have our own culture but then like we don't like we know that back home. Yeah, they wild Yeah. So like, we know Okay, we don't want it like what were they doing? That's wild. What did they say? Like? Let's look at the pure Islam. Let's look at what let's look at what the real message of Islam is. Like we look like we go through and you're like, what the prophet ?????? someone like what he taught us and so we're not you know, put in like those like normal whatever. Yeah.I agree. Nasrin 9:14 And the beauty about Western Muslims are like, you never know who actually is practicing and how someone could not be wearing hijab and they can be really really spiritual and I'll never know where in other countries they're so used to see as Muslims all based on your dress them all like if you're not dressed well, wow she's not practicing. You know, it's like they put like That's right, like emphasis on like the way people look, you know, so even they do that here but it's just the beauty is the resources like you know, a lot of the Muslims here since there are a lot of people are from different countries they can't really have their culture Dienabou 9:51 That one culture Nasrin 9:53 Yeah, because they're all going to fight they're gonna be like, Well, my culture, like disagrees with this, so then they're gonna find out okay, this is the is a cultural thing. It's not really islam. and practice islam for what it is. So a lot of the scholars in America, literally, they will throw out any cultural information, yeah, out the window. And given only teach you what is really islam, and it really does help a lot of like, the western US or any Muslims, because we get to learn the true Islam the true meaning and how the Prophet lived and all this and all that. So it's like, just like, and then you get to decide for your own self what is actually right. You know, I mean, where in other countries, it's like judgment. Like, yeah, they will judge you based on what you do. Like, someone here could be smoking, drinking, but they know, deep in their heart that like, God is there are like Islam is what the one thing they they want to do, you know, even then they're not practicing or they might be practicing, but they're doing other things. But it's just like, it's the beauty is like, they they're at least sure, yeah, we're over there is like, they don't even have the chance to questions. Yeah, like they don't even Dienabou 11:01 like, like, I think this would apply more for the east Africa, just because they practice more, but when you're here, you have more of a choice with the hijab. Cuz, like over there It's like, okay, you put it on, you knw what I mean. So like, you have more of a choice to get, like, you get to question okay "Why am I want hijab, what does it mean? You know, like, it's easier. And like, for me, it was even, it was just so much easier, just like seeing that um since I, since I like didn't even have it like it was more of a choice for me to wear hijab, because back home, like being judged wearing my, like this. So it wasn't I guess it was these, I guess it was like, and I take more pride in like my decision of hijab because I took it from myself and I've had, and I've had so many questions. Like, does your dad make you wear it? Like when I when they asked me, I'm just like, Oh,it doesn't stick like they're implying I'm forced, but then like, I'm just like, it like it takes me like, Whoa, you did this yourself? a pat on the back. Yeah, I mean, I'm like a lot of people struggle with it. Like, even I struggle with it, like, even like Nasrin 12:16 Hijab in general is a struggle as for females, especially living in the western country, because obviously we all like we still have the same feelings is just a other people. It's just like, don't but also like, I can't imagine myself without hijab because I enjoy matching my clothes with hijab. This and that, it's showing up for Dienabou 12:46 Sometimes though, there is those times like, I'm black, you know, like black girls be rockin some nice weaves, like, I want to I used to actually wear weaves sometimes I be like, Oh, I miss it. But I'm like, I'm like, why would Nasrin 13:01 We go around it by having like, all female parties. You've seen like I dyed my hair underneath my hijab. And nobody saw but my girls. You know what I mean? Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:16 You all amp each other up Nasrin 13:16 Yeah exactly Dienabou 13:18 And we have like, like, some of my friends have all girls snapchats. We have my finsta's all girls, you know? Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:26 There's a lot more choice now with social media like Instagram the close friends. Yeah, yeah. You have more control about who can see it Dienabou 13:34 So that's always a plus. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 13:35 Like you still like do social media. Yeah. Nasrin 13:37 You can still tell the world you still cute Dienabou 13:43 Just because men can't see it and they don't have to see everything Nasrin 13:45 to be honest. Yeah. But even then, like, I wouldn't even want my like men to see it because like, I would get disrespected like some guy would really feel like honestly, let me let me slide through her DM's and say something. Dienabou 13:58 Especially nowadays, like, I just feel like, I don't I'm not going to generalize all men, but a lot of men just have such disgusting minds. They're so disgusting and like, like, you will like people like Okay, um, I even heard of cases of people getting sexually harassed at hajj, like pilgrammage. And when this is supposed to be okay, the time Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 14:24 a sacred space Dienabou 14:25 Yeah, like sexually harassed it like, you know what I mean? Like, she's covered from head to toe. Yeah. And you're getting sexually harassed. It's like, no, in a way for me, it's also a liberation though. Because like, like, I don't need to look like this. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 14:43 And you choose, you have control over what people see of you. Nasrin 14:45 Yeah, like, Muslims in America, like the best thing is, like, there's so many different ways of people how they appear like, yeah, even like, just, for example, the style of how Muslim should be this. So like, there's no actual like, moving on. Like, besides being modest, there's no rules on how to wear your hijab. Yeah. As long as you cover the central parts, right. Yeah, so you can see someone dressed so modest, like full covering their face and all this and someone who's not you know what I mean? And it's like, it's so pretty, because like, people get to decide what's best for me. And let God judge them instead of letting people judge them. Yeah, I mean, like, if I lived where my mom was from, I wouldn't have the opportunity to dress and explore my style. I would be stared at because I'm unusual, you know what I mean? Because oh, every single person dresses like this. Why are you dressed so different? I would get that uncomfortable stare and like it's not like that here because maybe it used to be when there wasn't that many Muslims and like when when they would see a Muslim with hijab maybe they'd get stared at. But now that it's so like diverse Especially like in Minnesota, especially in Minnesota and Yeah. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 16:01 Like Minneapolis, even in like rural places there are muslims everywhere. Nasrin 16:04 Yeah. Yeah. It's like,even thought like they're still like bad aspects of like living here. Dienabou 16:11 There is but, honestly,but honestly, that's that's a challenge no matter where you go, you're gonna you're gonna experience it, no matter where Nasrin 16:21 in different ways, Dienabou 16:22 in different ways. But still the fact you're still going to create? Yeah, so you can escape it Nasrin 16:26 Yeah, but even like, like let's say, like, you don't see that many Muslims that cover their face. Like I had like some my siblings, try, you know, try to do that. That is the extra spiritual thing. It's not mandatory. But it's just like a person, like a lot of girls maybe feel like this is an extra take. They want to just get extra close to allah you know what I mean? And like, it was hard for them to for them to keep on wearing it because it's not common. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 16:54 I think slowly I've seen more and more women do that. But here it's still like freaks people out. Nasrin 16:54 Yeah, it's not as common. Dienabou 16:55 I feel like it's more dangerous even, yeah, even some people say like, it's better for you, like in the West it's better for you not to just because Nasrin 17:14 they get like, like I still my sister and even get like my sister works at the CVS Pharmacy. And she used to cover her face. And every single time there would be a customer and they would talk to her rudely and all this and all that. And so a lot like it's a struggle she would have to like calm from I like a certain extent people get angry, like, how long are you going to keep your temper like, you know what I mean? And like, she had to take it off. She just couldn't like, and at the same time Dienabou 17:40 I know multiple people that took it off Nasrin 17:42 And it's like. It just puts people in like, it's sad that that's reality right now. But um, yeah. I just feel like that is one area that a lot of Muslims kind of struggle like if I was ever to feel like I want to do that extra step to cover myself a lot a little more. I know it's going to be sometimes a struggle because I see my sister struggle my sisters because like every my other sister she was going to college, buses would deliver in the winter in the code on purpose is just like it's just out of people. Ignorance kind of hit you. But yeah, hopefully I got this enormous things. I feel like the more they people could see, like the actual like, Dienabou 18:27 you say the thing is that you have to Yeah, yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 18:31 I had all these questions, and I'm just like, Where are they? Oh, so you talked about this, like back home? A lot of times people almost see islam because it's so embedded in the culture that was like symbolic. Yeah, people just wear like, hijab just because like, that's just what we do. Yeah. So it'slike not Dienabou 18:54 Yeah, so yeah, that's it's not Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 18:57 and so here you have the ability, like the context and the past stronger and your questions, Nasrin 19:02 attacks looking different. Dienabou 19:04 The stairs. Nasrin 19:05 Yeah. Cuz like a child like me. Nasrin was 10 years old. I was curious about her religion, where if I lived somewhere where it's so comfortable, I wouldn't appreciate it Dienabou 19:17 I'd be like okay, this is what everybody does. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 19:19 I'm going to do it. Nasrin 19:20 Like even like Like for example, when I went to India, right? And this is like I have never been there but when I went there a couple of years ago, like the way my cousins who are older than me the way they view Islam and the way I view Islam is so different. They have a lot of cultural Islamic like the the Indian culture and Islam mixed. Wh ere for me, it's straight up because my mom knew being a mix, like I'm mixed. So like my I wasn't really raised in a specific culture and growing up and being born in different countries. I don't have a specific culture that I practice so even that's maybe an advantage I have. But like me, compared to my cousin I have like what Islam like the information I have is just like straight on Islamic information. Where for her she would literally believe her Indian mixed cultural and Islam information is true. Sometimes it's so hard because Dienabou 19:25 And they're hard-headed about it Nasrin 19:58 And so you try to explain to them this is not actually islam, it's more cultural Dienabou 20:18 And they say "oh you see what people in the West are teaching" Nasrin 20:23 as a yes. And very few like, obviously, like a lot of there's a lot of like knowledge, Muslims that live they live in that country. Culture kind of, but even Dienabou 20:40 even the knowledge, they even have that filter. And Islam doesn't say that you don't have a culture is gone. It's like he says, I have so many like, I lost I was like, I brought so many people from different tribes. But the thing is, when you like, when you like what is the word when you prioritize culture? Over Islam? That's a problem. Yeah, that's a big problem. That's the problem with a lot of Western. Yeah. I mean, western countries. Nasrin 21:11 Islamic Yeah. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:13 Do you feel like that's not here though? Do you feel like that doesn't happen as much here? Dienabou 21:16 not as much because like Nasrin said there's so many cultures no one can say Nasrin 21:22 they question each other. Yeah, no, that's Dienabou 21:23 obviously but there is like, okay, there's like an honorable mention here. Yeah, give me one sec. Yes. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:30 In an enclave like if you're a Somali Muslim like this like and if you live here, they often do not know but then Dienabou 21:36 yeah, that's true. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 21:37 You're basically living in that culture because he that's right everyone around you is exactly yeah, they broke apart and places like yeah, we're it's like there's so many different people but yeah, surrounded by everyone within even but even that, Dienabou 21:52 just because there's so many in this the younger generation, they challenged the elders, there's so many people that get challenged and then it just gives them like, Okay, why are people doing it this way? This is what I know. Why are they doing. Then they become more open minded. And I've seen my parents like shift their even their way of thinking. So becoming more open minded and like saying, Okay, this is how they did it back home. But is this really right? Nasrin 22:21 If they disagree too, it's just like, okay, we raised we brought this kid here. So let them like find out kind of, like, Dienabou 22:31 Yes, but also it's that So okay, I brought the kids here and it gives them an opportunity to become more open minded, even if they have Okay, this is the way I think is right, it gives them the opportunity to be like, okay, maybe other people think different, ya know what I mean? Instead of saying these people are crazy yeah, you know, they said they still do that Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 22:54 Cuz they're also constantly challenged Nasrin 22:56 and honestly it goes both ways to their parents that literally wouldn't like their kids to wear hijab or be around Muslim just because they're scared that something will happen or even dumb themselves there so like, into like, Oh, I want to be westernized I want to live the Western life this is that that they try to avoid any Islamic relationship or connection, and there's also the other one too, and like so it's it's a challenge for both and for each family like I have seen a lot of like Muslim friends that like they're like oh, I don't I want to wear hijab but my mom would not let me my dad would not let they literally would not like that and this and then there's the opposite you know, I mean, so that goes that there's challenges in that way. But when it comes to like like when you mentioned culture being having culture here, I think like she mentioned it's more of the older leads they might have the like their cultural thing from like back home and now Dienabou 23:55 they're they're dying Nasrin 23:58 like yeah, it's like majority of the millennial or the younger generation of Muslims in America are very Yeah, they're very Western like they're more westernized but also like I mentioned it's very like very like Islam as Islam like you don't see much of like cultural influences and if you do see like her friends with question that like, like like, let's say like my friends are not all from the same culture countries, but they're all Muslims, right? So if they try to say something from what they're mom said or what their dad said we start to question like Dienabou 24:33 we always do it like "where did you hear that?" Nasrin 24:36 yeah, and then that kind of helps us like cultures Yeah. Dienabou 24:43 And just even like, like I took even some classes even like the culture and this is one culture of like, women's voices Yeah, women's voices become we say like our eyes like something like that supposed to be hit like you're already you're not even really like your private parts of your, so they say so like men think oh quiet down your voices like that sure our end and that's the saloon even like some of my friends that when we're praying so so like when you're praying there's different a certain phrase I just pushed to say out loud enough say and why so the praise our for Allah when I'm with my friends and I'm like, okay, who's going to lead you know, they'll be like oh yeah, you don't have to they say that what you call it you're not supposed to like say it loud. Yeah yeah, Nasrin 25:33 As the women and this and that because the men would tell them that other than that, but that's not really that the truth, you know what I mean? Dienabou 25:35 then there's the one I mean, like being here different perspectives like they get debunked like really? Are you sure that's just not a big car or whatever? and just like telling them Yo, where did you get this from? Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:02 So when I was back at North Hennepin and like I would hear a lot from people that there's still a lot of like Arabs think they're better than everybody else like Dienabou 26:10 oh yeah Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:11 that's still like even though for some here is Dienabou 26:15 100% Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:16 It's not as cultural there's still that color is 100 and it's still Arab supremacy. Nasrin 26:21 I think there is color in every every country Dienabou 26:24 everywhere, there's color Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:29 Do you think that Arabs like invalidate you as Muslims? Dienabou 26:34 yes because Nasrin 26:36 I think it's more of the language because Islam is predominantly Arabic, like the quran is in Arabic, I think the thing is a lot of things that I seen like a lot of like majority the younger the younger generation of Arabs Don't do it. Don't do it as much as the older but you can see the influences from their parents Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:36 You think so? Because at North Hennepin I felt like... Dienabou 26:43 I don't agree with that Nasrin 26:47 The thing is I don't interact with Arabs as much like Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 26:57 But Why though? For that reason? Nasrin 26:59 for me, it's just, I just.. no no no no no. I'm never like that. Some of my friends are. Me? I meet someone for who they are. I'm never like that because I told you I was raised very, I don't have this cultural thing like I was raised very very neutral. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 27:19 Cuz you were born in Ethiopia but your Culture is not like your ethnic identity Nasrin 27:22 We don't have anything we practice. Like literally like even if my mom sometimes tries to put some of her culture and like tries to like embed her her cultural like views on us, Dienabou 27:31 Like mom really? Nasrin 27:31 We would start questioning, Oh my whole siblings start questioning and she'll be like okay, you know, Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 27:35 like "you know what? forget it" Nasrin 27:36 Yeah, so like, even then like for us we don't really have that like even Dienabou has seen it. I wasn't born here but I don't have like Ethiopian culture. I don't have the Somali culture. Indian culture. I don't have that I'm just like lost like you know? but I just practice Islam. You know what I mean? But um, what was I trying to get to? Yeah, therefore I, I just never really met Arabs as much, I think in my school there wasn't as many of them like I never was close it just never happened. I don't know it's not not that I was being done. Dienabou 28:09 I definitely think it's 50/50 cuz I've seen I've talked to Muslims. Okay, one thing is I'll be friends with, Like Nasrin said, anyone no matter what and even like I even still have some friends that are like that say stuff like, "You can't say that". It's 50/50 like I've had friends that like they say some stuff and I'm like I like but I don't want to call them out because I feel bad I don't want to be like don't say that but just like like I like I think I used to take this like Friday class you know as I wasn't even a class it was like a girl group yeah whatever we come together and it would be like Arabs and the Arabs, Somalis, Ethiopians all of us like it would be a lot of them even like some of the things that Arabs would say, I'd be like "my dad would never let me marry a black man" like and they were just so open just how they say it and like "we have black people this black people that" Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 29:19 So islam does not erase racism? Dienabou 29:27 It's supposed to Nasrin 29:28 no no Dienabou 29:31 the thing with Islam is, Islam is one thing, muslims are another like Nasrin said So you choose. Nobody's gonna follow everything the same. You know what I mean? Nasrin 29:40 Islam is like literally don't be racist, right? A true Muslim wouldn't be racist like someone might like you know, but I'm Islam like.. What was I talking about? Islam tells you not to do this like being racist and all that because God created everything right? we're all equal. No Arab, it's even in the Quran, no Arab is better than a non Arab and non Arabs is not, like you know? So it literally forces you, you have to practice that, even if you break that rule like that's a sin. When you think bad of a non Muslim, a non Arab if you're Arab, you think the same and then so forth goes, you're sinning in some cases. Nasrin 29:49 No, you're sinning just because of the fact that, we believe that like, you know, like the story of like, Adam, and do you guys do it now you guys do? I don't know if this is in other religions. But the fact that the devil or that the devil didn't bow down to Adam, so because he thought he was better. But in a sense, you're doing exactly what the devil did. You know what I mean? like your belief. And like another thing is too, like I... go ahead. Nasrin 30:53 And like in the Quran it puts a huge emphasis that God hates those arrogance, fake people who think they're better than other people, you know what I mean? Dienabou 31:02 They say that one ounce of pride, Like you don't get into heaven. That's what they say. Like even one atom weight of pride. Like you're not even supposed to have that. Nasrin 31:10 And that's where the Muslims come and make mistakes and do that. So like, yeah, I seen a lot. Like I've seen a couple of Arab kids say certain things that I was like, excuse me? And the funny thing is, a lot of Arab kids think I'm Arab. So they think like, I would agree with them. Little do they know that I was raised and been around black people way before, you know what I mean? Dienabou 31:33 Even yesterday we were even talking.. You're half Black! Nasrin 31:37 yeah yeah yeah no like.. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 31:38 Do you consider yourself Black? Nasrin 31:39 Yeah, I consider myself a lot more black than anything else. Because that's the kind of area like I was raised in. Dienabou 31:46 At the end of the day, that's what she is. Whither people like it or not. Nasrin 31:48 Yeah but I'm still half right. When people see me they don't really like, very few chances. Yeah, very few chances where people question if I was Black. a lot of the time they think straight up I'm, I'm not black and they say a lot of racist things! Dienabou 31:59 We were talking about it yesterday. We were talking about it. We were at the movies or whatever. But we were talking about. So this, no we were at Chipotle. Yeah, and this random dude started to say some Arabic to her and we're like "?" And then she was like, Oh, yeah, last time this guy was like are you Arab? Nasrin 32:17 She's Arab right? Like that. Dienabou 32:19 Like next time We're gonna say she's Black and i'm Arab, because she's obviously black and there's black Aras. So just that idea of like the light skin preferring. Nasrin 32:32 Preferring, yeah. That happens a lot. Dienabou 32:41 Even just having that like Islam is our religion. Like so many people, so many. Thank you so many. Okay, first of all, Islam only came to y'all because y'all was going crazy. Yeah, so keep talking. Yeah but even just, like people think that I wasn't born Muslim. Or they think I was Somali. Yeah. East African or I wasn't born Muslim. Like It's kind of like the erasure of West African Muslim. And I do think that West African Muslim kinda sort of ish have a part of it just because they don't practice like that. but even just like, "Did you convert?" Like I don't know, how many times, "when did you convert? Like, "What's your convert story?" Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 32:49 Is it because they think that you're American black? Or is it because Dienabou 33:28 yeah, they think I'm and even they don't know that West Africa.. Nasrin 33:31 Or it could also be like, Oh, I speak Arabic, Therefore, I know the religion more than you. Even when they're not practicing right? Like, I even had a situation with one girl, like we were we were in and I think maybe Dienabou was there, but we were having like a religious conversation and this girl You know, like, I'm not going to judge her or whatever, but I don't, I don't see her practice. Like you know what I mean? But she tried to correct us, like the girls because we weren't like, we weren't arab, we didn't speak Arabic. She felt like she had the obligation to put her opinion Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:06 So Arabs, if they're even if they're not practicing, They're just like the true believers? Dienabou 34:10 Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:11 They like inherently they know more? Nasrin 34:14 that's what we see. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 34:17 Even if they're going out there going crazy drinking and all this stuff. Nasrin 34:19 yeah, like that's what we kind of see and like obviously they know, they know well that Islam is based on your actions regardless of what you are like. Dienabou 34:27 Allah does not care; Man, woman, blah blah blah whatever. Nasrin 34:28 I'm pretty sure they know what, but there's that arrogance like "oh I'm Arab, I know more about you like I can, I understand the Quran. Do you understand besides reading the translation?", you know what I mean? It's kind of like you kind of get that vibe from them sometimes and it's just like, excuse me like okay, but why aren't you practicing then? I'm like, you literally are, so gifted you know the language like when someone is reciting the quran, you know it. Dienabou 34:35 That's a sin. That's a hypocrite. The hypocrites are the lowest of hell, but go ahead. Nasrin 34:54 so is it like that does come and also like the light skin kind of preference I see that a lot and I really hate it. That happens to me a lot because I am light skin a lot of the Arabs feel like "Oh she's not anything but Arab, she's Arab" or like they will literally force their views on me like no, you got to be like. Um so funny. This guy asked me where I was from and I usually don't tell people where I'm from whatever just cuz , I'm lost as heck I don't really know where I'm from. So this guy was like, Oh, where are you from? Are you Arab? And I said I'm not Arab I straight up the first thing when someone asks me if I'm Arab like, I really oh man I'm so offended I'm straight I'm going to tell you no cuz you tried. But um and something like "What are you?" whatever you know and then I literally tell him, I'm Asian and black like I'm Indian and Somali and he wanted me to be Arab so bad. He was like, "Somalis are Arab though?" Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 35:54 He was like, "I'm trying to chop right now. Please be Arab" Dienabou 35:55 So I can bring you to my mom. Nasrin 36:00 The thing is he was just like you look so Arab. There's gotta be some Arab in you. So he was trying to make an excuse for Somalis being Arab but I'm like excuse me My dad is Black. He is Black and you don't see any Arab in him so I don't know. Yeah, so I'm like no no no no no. Somalis are not Arab one, we don't speak Arabic Their writing is not Arabic. They don't know Arab. So they're not Arab, the culture is not Arab. It's not Arab. it's not in the Arab continent. I said Arab continent. but yeah, so he was really trying to push me towards like, oh you're my people I am not your people. I don't even know the intention because he was an older guy. But then there's just like that pride Yeah, it's just like you're my people, oh you're lightskin? you're my people kind of thing No, like no Dienabou 36:53 I don't want to be associated with you. Nasrin 36:59 And there is Black Arabs! That when they claim. Yes. Yes Sudanis, Egyptians, yes like dark skin when they claim Arab people get offended. Arabs get offended like oh, they be like, Oh, no, you got to be, oh you're that type.. Dienabou 37:19 oh, that Arab like even with like... Nasrin 37:22 you know what I mean? like, second class. Dienabou 37:24 So definitely, definitely Arab superiority Nasrin 37:28 And That is cultural, you know what I mean? it's not Islam. Dienabou 37:31 Even if you see like, what they're doing to like I don't know if it would be immigrants from like, like Kenyan immigrants. Saudi, like how they're being treated? Nasrin 37:42 Saudi is just a whole different story. Yeah. Saudi and the thing is that's the problem because westerns take that and they think this is what Islam because Saudi is so cultural. Like 90% of Saudi practice, religion, all this is so cultural, that people don't understand that because of the place the holiest place of the, for Muslims is in Saudi. A lot of people think, oh whatever they practice there whatever is enforced, there is the right, the way Muslim should, no it's not. The government is corrupted. Literally. So sad. Dienabou 38:17 Period, period. Nasrin 38:21 We just started ranting. Dienabou 38:31 Actually, when I was talking about actually Oh, it's not just from Arabs that do that. I got like people not think I don't have Black in me or whatever. There was this guy started saying something about slavery and this, he thought that I wasn't like, he thought I was Arab. He didn't think I was like, you know, I had any Black in me. And then he started saying this tricky things. And I was just like, excuse me, literally that day. And I used to work with him. Thank God he left and I am like, I every time I was seeing him, my heart was he's the way his mentality goes, O my God. He was straight up white dude who did not care about anyone. And he started staying stuff and this Asian kid was supporting him and I'm like Bruh. I had to go pray. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 39:21 So like you like fit in. Like people say all this shit around you. Nasrin 39:25 Honestly, I be seeing, I be seeing so much stuff and it's so funny it's just like, woah Dienabou 39:31 can't relate. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 39:34 So do you feel like living in Minnesota as a Muslim. It's like, it's pretty cool? Dienabou 39:39 It's okay. It's all right. Okay, as a Muslim Yeah. I hate Minnesota. Yeah. But as a Muslim yeah, just because. I don't know. It's the community of Muslims. I feel like having Muslim sisters around me make me a better Muslim Um, I guess you can say like, it's easier for me to wear hijab. Because I have Muslim friends, hijabi friends. So. I guess, yeah. Nasrin 40:03 Yeah I think it's okay, I really don't question Minnesota like that. Never really thought of it. Dienabou 40:09 But I do like, how like there is such a big population of Muslims. There's like so many, like, the classes that come here, like, ways for me to get more Islamic knowledge. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 40:21 Like, there's a lot of resources, and there are a lot of people I feel like it would be different. Yeah. Yeah. And since there are so many people and this younger generation, Dienabou 40:31 exactly. Jocelyn Hernandez Guitron 40:32 And again, that true Islam, but you guys were talking about. Dienabou 40:35 Fo sho, Fo sho, Yeah. And even like, we have our third Gen, no, first generation like, culture, first gen culture, like even like, yeah, there's a Somali, whatever, we're all first gen and we're all Muslim so I can I feel like that in itself is a culture. And that's really, really cool.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Abdikaliq Sahal, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg? Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg. What do you want to do is biology? Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school. But I'm ...
Show more Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg? Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg. What do you want to do is biology? Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school. But I'm also really interested in public health. And I know, schools nearby have like a dental masters in public health degree on so that's something that interests me, but you know, just something I can get back to the community would be nice. Yeah. And have you like, Look, dug deep into masters programs or anything like that? What do you mean by that? I mean, have you started looking at schools? Yeah, um, you know, there are some schools like everybody looks at you know, out west because of the weather but yeah, I think I wanted to stay, you know, closer to home probably, either. You know, I think Augsburg… Augsburg doesn’t have dental school or MPH. I wish they did, because I love Augsburg, but um, you know the University of Minnesota has that dual degree program and a Master's in Public Health schools and I kinda just want to be closer to my family and be here by you know, being away from me for two years would not be too bad. Right, right. Somewhere with one another. Yeah, exactly. I'm looking at. I mean, I've thinking about grad school, but I haven't looked too far into it. Yeah. I totally get that too. I have a pretty big family too. And so that's always important to me. And I think Sarah told me that you also have a big family? Yeah, I'm the oldest of eight kids and my family. Yeah, it's uh, I think I had to develop into this, like more of a parental role sometimes too, because I feel like I'm obligated to my siblings like to you know, provide like a good path. Because I feel like I was kind of you know, the firstborns are really kind of a test dummies in this world to say, parents are kind of trying new things out on us kind of experiencing the first time. So I think it's my responsibility to let them know what's right from wrong and a sense and how to go about things since I already went through it. You know, so. Yeah, totally get that because I'm the oldest of eight as well. No way. Yeah, I know. Yeah. How young is your youngest sibling? My youngest sibling is about a year. A year and almost two months. He's a baby. How many like brothers and sisters is it? I've got three brothers and four sisters. Nice. Yes. I have two brothers and five sisters. Wow. Yeah. Lots of girls in my household. Yeah. Yeah. It’s fun, though! How old is the youngest for you? Um, she's two and a half right now. Yeah. So she was born my senior year of high school when I was going into college. So that's kind of what made my college decision to staying close to home. So I was able to be close to her. Yeah. Have you always lived over there in Edina? I don’t live in Edina, I live in southwest Minneapolis. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right. I live in Southwest Minneapolis. I went to Edina high school, but I grew up in that area for a while. I think I've been there for about 12 years. Yeah, it's it's been a while. It's like it's been a good experience living in my neighborhood. I live in to the Linden Hills neighborhood. It's one of the best neighborhoods I think, in the in the country, if I could say that. It’s really nice and we have such a nice community there. Everybody really cares for each other. Um, um, but I’ve been, before that I used to live in St. Paul, in the McKnight neighborhood and um, it was nice as well, you know, lot more diverse than my neighborhood now. But the it was not as, like, you know safe so my parents wanted somewhere with that was more safe for children, our growing family, so it was a good choice to come to this neighborhood. And you know, before that I was, um, I lived, I came to United States in 2000 I think 2001 or 2002 sometime, in 2000, 2001, 2002. Sometime in that time period and I, uh, came from Kenya. I was born in Kenya. My family my family's Somali but we're we went to Kenya then at some point in my history and then we stayed in Kenya in a little place called Garissa for a little bit. My dad’s side at least, my mom’s side’s from a place called Wajir. It’s in northern Kenya. And then we decided to pack up and move to the United States and just you know, in hopes for a better life and you know, I think we're achieving what my parents hoped for so I'm happy for that. Good. What do your, what do your parents do? My, uh, my Mom, works for the county. She works for Hennepin County. I think she's in human services. Um, I say I think because I don’t know, my mom really doesn’t talking about her job and she just kind of grinds and my mom’s a very hard working woman. Um, and, uh, my dad works in Kenya. Um, yeah, yeah. Do you ever go back to Kenya at all? Well, I've been there. I went there during the summer going into eighth grade. Um, and it was really interesting I thought it is really, uh real culture shock because, it shouldn't have been because I was born there and I used to speak, you know, Somali and Swahili. Um, but I just think I got immersed in the American culture and I wasn't really like, I really didn't know about life back then. And, um, it was really, I think inspired me to be you know, that person in my family, because right now I'm the first person ever in my family like not just my immediate family, like extended family, like in my lineage to ever go to college. So that's important. I thought since I had this opportunity, I would like to, you know, do something give back to my family in Kenya who don't have the same opportunities. So I'd like to, you know, somehow, you know, give back because I know, when I was younger, a lot of my aunts and uncles were taking care of me, so I will actually repay them for that. So that's my goal, as well as I've also developed, like, a responsibility for to take not take care of but you know, to give back to my own community here, because a lot of people here have also helped me become the man I am today. And, um, we have a lot of potential, like for change in this community. So I'm excited for the years to come. Um, how has your like experience at Augsburg been in terms of, I guess everything but like being first generation college student, being in Minneapolis. Yeah, I think my, if I could label maybe a word that would define my, like, you know, career my time at Augsburg would probably be growth and I know that's just growth is something that's synonymous with a lot of people's college experience. But coming into college, I was very, um, I don't know how to even say it. I was very, like, closed minded, and in a sense that, of course, I'm coming from high school and not a lot of high schoolers, you know, have like a big view of the world and they don't really know what's happening. And I just thought that my little bubble of Edina high school is all that there was in a sense, but at the same time, even then, I knew that I was different. Because a lot of first physically in my skin color is a lot different from people at my school, and that I knew I was different than again, I wasn't just that I was also Muslim. So being black and Muslim was different and I knew I couldn't do things that my you know my counterparts were doing, people who were my age are doing or you know behaving, whatever, because I knew I had some other obligation that but I think when I got to Augsburg is when I really found myself immersed in first so my Somali heritage and be able to get closer with the Somali side of me and the more black side of me. And I think that's something I can I'm so glad I was able to do, and I don't think I would have been able to do that any other college I feel, because I was able to be completely myself and learn about what's great about myself and how I am enough and like just really cool stuff in like a lot of the rhetoric that you know, the Augsburg administration, like staff and the people from the president down like it's so inclusive and positive and I'm like, this is great, you know, just being like a young kid going to this thing by myself. I just felt like at the same time I wasn't alone. So it was nice to do that at Augsburg, and you know, every day I was growing and understanding that there's problems here and I wanted to fix it and you know, becoming more complete in a sense, you know, just being having those parts of me that I wasn't so sure about my, you know, my heritage and my culture that being filled in, like everyday a little bit was really amazing. And then but at the same time knowing how to navigate in white space was very, like, you know, beneficial the same time because I could do both. And it was, I think that it’s something that I really attribute to being my time at Edina and it was really helpful. So I think I think that I really appreciate that time there too. Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. While you were saying all that, you mentioned know, being black and being Muslim being Somali, like how would you describe your identity as a whole and you can interpret that however you want? Yeah. Um, I describe my identity, just like the way that you know, people, in America like to put people in boxes, you know, like I feel like nowadays we all put people in boxes and say you're this, you can’t be that, or you’re this or you’re that, you know, but I think I’m me, then I'm Muslim for me and then I'm also Somali. And I'm also black. Because black, being black is a race and like, every day I go out in this world and nobody.. For example, I was just in Israel and Palestine and I'm Muslim, but I'm not visibly Muslim as opposed to my Muslim… My Somali like you know, the Somali women in my community who are visibly Muslim it they wear hijabs. So I just look like you know, quote on, you know, a regular black person, a black man. So like I go up to this al-aqsa mosque and at the entrances they have these guards that are asking people if they're Muslim or not because sometimes during certain times only Muslims can go into the mosque and these were Israeli soldiers. So then I say “yeah, like yeah hi I want to go pray” and I walk past, “hey, are you Muslim”, like “yeah, I’m Muslim” and they look at me so like I'm not Arab or anything like that but I'm Muslim at the same time. So I asked them like “hey, like why can’t I go in?” Like I'm like, I'm Muslim like let me just get through and I want to go pray but you know, they look at me they you know, they just give me a hard time for a little bit and then they ask for my passport and I was like, why would my, my passport doesn’t stamp “I’m Muslim”, it doesn’t show that I, what my religion is and eventually you know, I just told them you know, I’m Muslim I want to go, I need to go pray, so they just let me through. But you know, just understanding that you know, at the end of the day like before that when people see like I’m, my skin color, I’m black, and I can’t erase, like that’s something, that’s something that people can’t try to erase like I am who I am, and then I'm Somali as well, like Somali’s an ethnicity as like even though people, it's a nationality, some people believe, it's also an ethnicity and I think it is, um, like but um, but yeah I think, uh, that's who I identify myself as and I know now as we're coming up with different, you know, things to identify people because everybody's so different, you know, and that's beautiful, because I think there's, um, I think I'm [incoherent] learning [incoherent] while at Augsburg, so I’m cis-gendered, I think? Heterosexual male? Yeah. So that's something new about myself I didn't know. I didn't know the wording I knew I knew that, but I didn't know how to word that. So that's something new I learned as well. And also my pronouns, too, it’s like, every day we're learning how so complicated people are and so different, like, I feel like we should be able to, you know, it's, you know, just really explore that and, you know, embrace that, and I love how Augsburg does that and it's a cool thing. Yeah, I totally agree. I didn't know about any of those things coming into Augsburg too and now getting ready to leave soon. It's like, I feel like I know so much more. Yeah. And we all are so different but like, I feel like that brings me closer to people. It's like we have so many different things. So, yeah, definitely relate to that. So you talked about, like being Muslim and being black. And I just want to know, like, some of the ways how does like being Muslim affect your black identity? if any? I don't really think it does. Because I don't know. Um, I feel like blackness is not just one thing, you know, it's like blackness is a lot of times construed as just being like, um like, um American black, you know, like African American culture but, but there's so much more than that. Because black people are everywhere in the world, and there's different, there's different aspects to blackness and being black. And also like, I don't know, like in America, we see African Americans are black and black people, they’re the same thing. What am I saying? Like, black people like, see that’s what I’m saying, it's kind of people, like people think. I don't know, it's like, you can be black but sometimes, you know, African American, you know, like, yeah. Yeah, exactly. So like, it's just, it's like people, it's something that people can just are just different. They don't understand. Right. And it's hard to understand. But, like in America, black are a minority. But, you know, it means something else to be in a country where the black people are the majority and how you don't have to think about you know, institutional racism, even though even though, I believe in all black majority countries still feel racism. Right, right. You know because of colonization and imperialism. Exactly. But yeah it's like there's so many aspects to it and it's, I think it does you know it says it does people an injustice to say, you know, like you know, you’re not black enough or you know, or black. This is black, like what is? There's so many different things it's like you know it's so, it's really weird to see it and I remember growing up people told me I wasn't black enough or, “you’re so white.” That's something I really heard a lot and it was the worst thing because it's like what does that mean “I'm not black enough”? What is being white? What is being black? I am black. It’s my skin. I am who I am, so putting people into boxes is so weird, but at the end of the day blackness is a thing that people I feel like especially, you know, Muslims are black and I feel like that Muslims have been erased from the whole now black Muslims have been erased from the whole narrative of what it is to be a Muslim because all you see in the media are Arab Muslims, or lighter skinned Muslims. And, yeah, you just tend to see that a lot. So that's something that I feel like we're trying to reclaim now. That you know, black people are Muslim and you know, black culture is part of Muslim culture, like the first person to ever give the, the [] was, was an Ethiopian slave or ex slave named Bilal. So like the black Muslims have been around since the time of you know, like, since for a very long time, so it's something that you know, it's it is here and it's a thing and should be celebrated as well. Yeah, I mean, that's like what we're learning about in our class too, which has been like super eye opening to me is that like a majority of the slaves who, like were brought to America were Muslim. But I don't know, I guess like I was never taught that and I never knew that. Yeah, so that was like, crazy. And I know like so much history has been lost because of like the slave trade and things like that. And I've just been, yeah, because you're just not taught that and then there does like seem to be like such a divide in that context like disregarding black Muslims and like that like side of our history. So that's been super interesting to learn. And within the black community, though, do you ever feel any divisiveness? Like because of your religion or experience any, like Islamophobia within the black community? I'm trying to think personally… I can't really think of anything like that. Um, I just feel like maybe I see accounts of other, you know, maybe I can tell you there’s like an African and you know, African American kind of divide ‘cuz I remember like maybe people recounting the stories of growing up African in America like coming straight from [Africa] as an immigrant not having ancestors as slaves or anything like that. So the people, you know, there's this divide thinking that, you know, Africans were like, you know, poor and they’re, you know, starving and they’re in need so like, you know, I think the term African booty scratcher something that comes up a lot when people talk about their childhood because that's something that people who people who were direct immigrants from like, like, Africa like, like I said direct immigrants like they came within their life from Africa. We had to deal with that anti-African nature, but I don't think I really experienced in my life any anti-Muslim rhetoric from um, I don't know just, just like, like from everyday life from other black Americans. Yeah, but I know that it exists though. It's a thing that does exist. Yeah. And what do you like have to say about that? I don't think that that's something we should be, you know, something we should be fighting about. I feel like we are already, as Black Americans, we’re already fighting a lot and divisiveness within our own communities and I know we're all different community with, like different communities exist within the black community, but we're all you know, dealing with the same things essentially. And I feel like being united is much more beneficial to us and in each religion it really does just preach tolerance, and I think that's something that we need to like, you know, keep practicing because whatever may be I know that, you know, saying or just treating something different because their religion is wrong and being more tolerant of that. Yeah, I'm just like thinking about you talking about like the divisiveness between like Africanborn coming here and you know, like products of the slave trade. I definitely see that a lot. Yeah. And it is so frustrating to see because at the end of the day, everyone else sees us as black, you know, like we're all the same. Yeah. Even though we're not. Even though we're not! Even though we have like many differences but like to have that own divide in our community that's super frustrating to see. And really hard to watch, and especially then going further into, like, islamophobia within the black community. Especially now knowing like, the history of like our people also being Muslim is, yeah, crazy to me. Um, so I asked before that, you know, like, how does your Muslim identity like effect your black identity, but now the opposite like, does your black identity ever affect your Muslim identity? Like do you ever experience colorism within your religious community or anything like that? Well, like again, I feel like I’ve just been kind of blessed not to, like experience a lot of that, or yet. But I do know within, I know there is colorism within the Somali community and I guess like 99% of Somalis or a very large, high percentage of Somalis are Muslim, so I don't— there isn't, in Islam, there isn't, you know anything like colorism I feel that's like a cultural thing. And again, that's part of white supremacy. That's creating these divides and making people not be comfortable in their skins and making blackness look like an evil and bad thing. That's why they're like, that’s why the skin whitening industry is like, you know, very big in majority African countries and I feel like it's not something that in Islam, but I know that it's something that, that it’s cultural and that needs to be destroyed because everybody's equal in Islam. That's a beautiful thing. That's why people during the time of the Prophet [incoherent] were on, you know, one of the reason that they didn't– were very against him because he's, there, like you know, slaves who were, you know, part… slaves who were Muslim were in like the same rank… like looked upon the same way in the eyes of God that you know people who were you know kings or whatever, because we're all the same in the eyes of God so that's something that people were very mad about. And so everybody's… this colorism thing is very difficult and really is present and it's really, it's a big thing and you can see it within Somali community, you can also see that you know maybe some Arabs think maybe that you know they might be better in a sense sometimes. That's what, that's what I've heard. That you know that… even like the, you know, that there's even this colorism within the black– in the Muslim community like that, too. That maybe that the religion was, you know, how do I say, like founded in this part– in that part of the world, Arab world, but and that they may be closer to it or have more, you know, more ties to it. So they might be better or something like that. So, and they don't see maybe as black Muslims being, you know, the same level as them but it doesn't make sense because we're all the same in the eyes of God so it's something that we need to work on and I think that it's getting better but there's a lot of work to be done. Yeah, and that's not to say all Arabs, of course. Right. You know, but that's something that I've seen and I, I know that it's around. Yeah. Can you talk a little bit about, like the Muslim community here at Augsburg or here [in] Minneapolis that you found while you've been here? Talk about the community here? Well I think this community… again, I have strong ties to the East African Community here. Especially Somali community, I think it's incredible what the Somali community here, Somali-Muslim community has done like in these last maybe 20 years or so. How we've established a community here, how we are integrating and having businesses here and really just, you know, making this place or a little part of this place our own in a sense, you know, and like I just think it's incredible. And I want to just help improve that, or you know, keep it going this whole wave of productivity and you know, business and, you know, just supporting each other. I think it's really tight knit I think we all have good mindset. But with any, you know, first generation immigrants or new immigrant community like problems will arise and I think that you know, with time, those problems will decrease and or will be able to be better at fixing those problems are at working to fix those problems. So yeah, but it's also hard with the highlight that's on the Somali community now, especially with the President's rhetoric and how Ilhan Omar has been attacked in the media. And Ilhan Omar doesn't speak for all Somalis. But at the same time she is Somali. So that backlash does come back to some extent back on the Muslim, Muslim Somali community, which also the Muslim community as a whole. Especially now, especially now with those horrible terrorist event that occurred in New Zealand and, like right now it's a tough time sometimes being Muslim. Yeah. So all you can do sometimes is pray, but at the same time, you know, work to fight against that and not be afraid. Yeah. And would you say that the community that you found here helps during those hard times? Yeah, I think we're all really well [incoherent], with our, we have a lot of Muslim, we have a lot of mosques here. And I think that's where the community comes from. And we're all we all kind of the– Minneapolis, Minnesota is a big, Minnesota a big state. Minneapolis is, you know, fairly big city, but it's really small when I feel like a lot of everybody knows each other here. And we're all just trying to be better at you know, taking care of one another in the community. And we all really understand that, you know, it's hard out here. So, you know, [incoherent] I think the community does a really good job is for be, to be connected. Is there a specific mosque that you go to here in Minneapolis? Um, I go to usually at Augsburg, is where I pray usually. They’ve made a good space for us to pray and allow us to practice our religion every Friday in the Gundale Chapel. We have Friday prayers, led by [incoherent] and yeah it’s just great at Augsburg. Yeah. Nice, nice and, I mean you said that you have good space but I know that space is usually it's a pretty like multi-purpose space. Would you want to have like a more permanent space? Yeah it's like… well I don't know it's like…I don't know… I would love of course like a little like little mosque here you know but I feel like you know, sometimes I feel like you know my you know, people of color sometimes don't… feel like they're asking too much you know. I really, I'm really happy, like yeah, I really appreciate the space that we have now you know, but… I have no problems with it. It's really a nice space. It has enough room for everyone and it's beautiful, really scenic area. Where, an aesthetically pleasing area where like there's a lot of light coming in and it’s really nice. Yeah. Another space would be nice of course, and like everybody, like why not? But I think what we have now is good. Before Hagfors was there, what space did you use before that? We used to pray in the, is it the Hoversten Chapel? Yeah in this… at first we used to pray like I remember we used to pray literally in the corner like behind the chapel in this little like weird space by the door and then like I don't know I think one day, one day we like asked to pray like in the middle in like the actual chapel and like we did but like I remember me and my friends like, “yeah we're just gonna start praying here, it’s a lot better.” You know but I think we just ended up going back to the area. I don't know why, but we ended up going back to that little corner of the of the of the church. And I meant the chapel, and like that was it was a weird area but I’m glad we got the one we have now, but, uh, yeah, so… Um, how does religion come into play like with your family? Like, is it very, like important to your family? Yeah, religion is, is one of the biggest things. I think it has to be the biggest thing. I think, you know, I just think that in my family, especially my family, like my dad, like, I'm [incoherent], I'm trying to be like, my everyday like, you know, with religion, it's you have ups and downs, you know, but like, you know, you always have to keep trying, of course, like when you were down, like, just know that your ‘iimans, they’re called your ‘iimans, your faith will be like, you know, back up again. So, it's something that I constantly work at. It's not something that can be passive about, I think you have to be like, you know, active in, you know, praying and, you know, thinking of God all the time, and knowing that God is everywhere. In my family especially like my dad he– I remember whenever I used to be at home I live on campus now but when I was at home he would wake me up every day at you know sometimes I'd wake up but mostly my dad would wake me up, especially when I was a kid you know he’d wake me up every day at four o'clock, five o'clock in the morning to pray the first prayer of the day and you know and you always my dad, I think those, his lectures have been like etched in my brain. I think every time I do something I think, “oh, what would my dad say?” Yeah, and I used to go to like a Sunday school kind of thing. For, to learn the Quran like, my dad made emphasis do that because his parents never took him to that. And like he really wish like he said, I wish my parents took me to that. So he’s trying to like you know, he learned his learning from his past and you know, trying to make you know us not have these regrets or whatever. So, religion plays a big part in my life and my family's life, and it's something that I think it's, you know, it's how I shape my religion, shape, shape how shaped my life. My life is based on in a sense, like how my religion is, you know, like, I abstain from things because of my religion I do things because of my religion. I try to be good person, one because I, you know, like I you know, I try to be good person and then I, you know, I don't know, my religion is a big thing for me. My head’s all over the place. I think I talk, whenever I talk, I think I like my, I think my brain is thinking like 100 miles an hour and my mouth is trying to keep up with my brain so I get caught up sometimes. Right, right. Yeah. Um, do you have many friends who are you know, like, like American born blacks result of the slave trade? Yeah, um, I, I do, but not like many I feel like there, I feel like I really don't have the opportunity to have too many African American friends. But like at the same time, by opportunity. I mean, like, I'm trying to think. I don't know, I just feel like I just feel like there’s, I don't know why, but I feel like maybe there aren't as much at Augsburg for some reason. There's not as much I feel like, you know, once I got, you know, close to my Somali friends, of course, and people just kind of stay in their own cliques, but I remember have, especially Minnesota, it's we're already you know, hard to find to begin with, like, black people in general, you know, so like, Yeah, I do have some, you know, but I'm not gonna lie. I wish I had more. And I, you know, it's honestly hard to be like to find black, African American friends sometimes, I don't know why. Am I crazy? No, you're not. You're definitely not. Okay. That's super like validating. I think about that all the time. Like being at Augsburg specifically. Yeah. Yeah, it is. There just aren't many here. Yeah. Like I’m thinking, wow have I been just been isolating myself, like not like making attempts but I'm thinking like, have there even been opportunities to make, you know, make a, you know, have African and more African American friends? Like in Minneapolis like, I don't know. Maybe it has to do with just how, like the history of, you know, African Americans within Minnesota. I just went to the Historical Society, Historical Center the other day and I learned about the Rondo community that was, you know, just destroyed basically because of the 94. I-94. Yeah, it's like, crazy. I didn't know that. You know, it's like a whole community, gone. So like, stuff like that. So the history of African Americans in Minnesota is different. And I know that history of African Americans in Minnesota is a lot different than… it’s not a lot of different but it is different than how new immigrants that have came from, you know, Africa or East Africa wherever, you know Somalis. Sudanese, Ethiopians. I know that it's different. I just think it is different because they're like, that institutionalized racism and systemic racism. It's been like, around and has, and has, like, you know, plagued in a sense the African American, African American community, like here, like much longer than it has our new communities, you know? Right. So, yeah, so maybe like, there could be there's probably some research about this. So that's maybe reason why that's why maybe that some like aren't in like more you know university or something like that. You know what I mean? Like, like that has to do with the system that around it that's not having you know that happen. But I do have African American friends. Um, like what those friends, is does like religion ever come up and is there ever like conversations on that? Not really. No? Not really it's just regular stuff. Well no… I really don't talk about religion really just like too much anyway. I just kind of keep it with myself and you know I I'm a firm believer by I like people to live their own lives I and me I already have like I'm already going through like my own like how can I advise somebody to do something when it's hard for me to do it. So I know it's hard in general. I think that's what we need to understand, like, you know, like, and if you want to talk about religion, whether like, I don't know, I think when people do talk about religion, it's kind of giving people advice, or, hey, don't do that. I feel like a lot of times, that's what it is. Hey don’t to that, you should do this. But at the same time, you know, like, I think I just like people will do whatever they want to do on I just don’t like telling people to do with their lives, you know, when I already am trying to figure out what I want to do with my life. Yeah, exactly. Um, I mean, I guess you may not know this, but like, with your siblings, like, what is their experience been like growing up here and like growing up with their black identity and like navigating the world in that way? Yeah, I think, I assume, it's hard. I know for my sisters because you know, it's kind of different wearing hijab, you know, you don't have to wear hijab when you're that age, but sometimes they want to, you know, they just want to put it on and go to school like that. So maybe just know that at that young age, okay, there is some difference, apart from me being black, you know, and I don't know, hope, hopefully they have some, you know, they can rely on me, my other, my older siblings, me that I'm the oldest for me my you know, my two other brothers… my youngest brother, my baby brother he’s the one that's one years old. But maybe rely on us because I know it's especially hard for Muslim women um in you know predominately white spaces institutions that exist all over the Minnesota especially in my area. So I hope that they're comfortable in their skin and their religion. And I think it's going to take you know, some finding yourself and I don't think this is part of life, you know, knowing who you are, you know, developing this, you know, sense of, you know, greater of self worth and all this stuff. You know, it's– they’re young, a lot of my siblings are young and I want them you know, just to go through this journey as you know, as smooth as possible, of course, I just want to facilitate that, you know, any way I can. What are their ages? Like my oldest younger sister is a junior in high school. And then after that's a big gap because that one's in the sixth grade. Yeah, so um yeah, and then after that is she's in the first grade. And then after her, my, that sister is in preschool. She’s doing some preschool, she's like she's turning four in June. But yeah, they're all really young. So, you know, I just it's I nobody really knows the answers to this stuff is kind of like, you know, what's the best way to parent like nobody knows. Every it's every parent's first time parenting. You know what I mean? Like, for my parents, I know it was their first time being a parent with me and still is, they're learning and developing new things. So I think it just takes time and you know, eventually everything will be alright. You know, so you just have to have a positive mentality. So, um, but I know it's hard. I've been through it, you know, not knowing who you are, you know, not knowing like, you know, how to define yourself and… yeah. Would you say like that journey of, you know, like, I guess that we're all going through, of like, trying to find yourself and like, figure out what you want to do and who you want to be? Do you find that being Muslim really helps you, like helps ground you in that way and like helps you figure that out? Yeah. Um, yeah, I think Islam is a very is like it's a beautiful religion and it really helps you find yourself like, you know, understand like, it's okay to be you, one, and like, that one that everything will be okay too. So you don't really have like a big like, I don't know, I just like helps you with a lot of ways. I’m trying to think like, I don't know, I just Islam has helped me, one, be a better person really, I think. Be more self aware and kinder really and… I’m trying to like and I haven't really thought about it. I think I’ve just been doing and not really thinking about it. Right. But it..but yeah, I think it’s, it's something that has really helped me in this journey. And it's still helping me and I want to reiterate like it's, it's not something that you figure out after you know, a month or whatever it's a process like every day you have to work at it, just like anything, you know, being a good Muslim being a good person. And like again, like you're just Islam is not only… it's helped me but again there has to be some push within myself and my experiences like I see that one why I want to become a dentist is because I really want people to be comfortable in their own skin and and just like be comfortable with themselves. Like when growing up, I have had like, still I have fluorosis. It's like a staining in the sense of your enamel like right here you can see it's like like a little bit yellower in my two front teeth but that's kind of just it's a developmental problem due to the fluoride content in like the water when I was growing up. And like that just, like enamel, it's healthy is nothing wrong there's nothing, anything up with my teeth, it's just a different color and that you know for a while I was just like, “Oh my God, why is, why is my teeth not white?” As you know the media says like white, you have to have pearly white teeth and you know, like I was constantly like, “Oh my God, there’s something wrong with me.” But really after you know, maybe, honestly not too long ago I realize it's okay, like my teeth are fine, they're strong and healthy. And once I realized that like you know I realized that, um, you know, it's okay like to be me, and this is me, and I'm all right. But I want to go into dentistry and help people with that own like self image of themselves, because maybe it's difficult to, you know, go through the whole process of first people should love themselves regardless, but I know that maybe somebody wants to fix their teeth, if they have really crooked teeth, for example, and it's hard for them to eat or whatever. If you can fix that, that's not only going to help them with their health, that's going to help them with their self confidence, and that's going to help them in life really, like if you can move through life more confidently, you're open to so many more opportunities and look at life really differently. So like that's really changing somebody's entire life. So why not do that for people within my community who don't even have, like, you know, sometimes opportunity to health care, that's why I want to do community dentistry and that's something I want to do. Like that's, that has, Islam is not… it helped me to some part. But it also like my me going through my life has helped me develop, like what I want to do in the future to, you know, like there's like God can only like give you… God gives you so much but you know it's up to you to you know go out and get it, you know? So I think that was an example I took I took Islam with Maheen too and I think he used… it's a common thing but he said that you can tie, you can tie, what… it’s something about a camel you can… what is it? Like you can tie your… you can have a camel and then not tie the rope or something and say, “God will keep this camel here.” But it's also good to tie the rope so the camel doesn't move you know or something. Like you know, God is there but you know, like, make sure you're doing like you know putting yourself in a good position to succeed too. That is a good analogy. I get it, I get it. Um, so I guess kind of bouncing around because yeah my mind is like this as well. Yeah, um like how involved in like politics are you and like are you involved in any groups like have you been to any like Black Lives Matter matches? Are you part of PASU you know like… Yeah um, I've been part of like MSA and I'm part of PASU like, like in and out not really part of PASU because I feel like I've been I used to be part of MSA and I was treasure last year. And then like, I also I remember through marches like I remember like when Donald Trump was being elected and like, you know, the murder of Philando Castille I remember I was going to I went to marches with some of my friends and protests and I remember, you know, we're doing a lot of, you know, activism. And I know that was a big thing for me for a while, and I knew it was not right. And I knew like, I just can't accept this. So I'll have to do something about it. And even to this day, like I'm, I'm the program manager of something called YMCs, called the Young Muslim Collective and right we really try to change like, you know, influence social change within our communities, and help, whatever like the community needs of us. So right now we're doing mentoring. And we're also trying to do maybe some, like clothing drive we did before. Hygiene drives, like things that the community needs. We're just trying to, like, help do that. So mentoring is a big thing for us right now. We're trying to partner with some schools in Minneapolis to just do some maybe summer, like summer program, like because I know the summers and things get, you know, dangerous and kids are really idle. So maybe having good role models like it's really important because having role models that like you know, are in school and like are doing something is really good for young kids to see. Especially how the media portrays black faces is it's it's something you get to see like, within our own community like this is possible. So that's what we're doing. And also like I work with these, this group, this nonprofit called Somali American Youth Enrichment Club. And we do, we do… It’s mostly a soccer club, but we're focused on doing homework help before the kids come and play soccer. So that's what we're doing, it’s in St. Paul. It's at a place called [incoherent] Academy and they do really good work there. So that's something I've been doing and I think I just want to keep doing that for a while. And just kind of do things that… I'm also like on the board of my neighborhood council, Linden Hills neighborhood council and like, I've learned so much in these since like I got elected back in like October, but since then I’ve been learning so much and I really thank people on the board for you know teaching me and just you know allowing me, allowing me to be myself and including me in decisions making me feel welcome it's been just a great experience. So I'm just kind of hoping to grow and experiences because I'm so young I think and there's so much to do so much to see like I feel like you know, hopefully I keep this optimism as I'm moving forward and this you know, this youthfulness of myself like that I have like hope that something that can keep driving me and I think it can for a while. So.. Um just a couple more questions. Okay. Bouncing back into growing up, and like growing up here and like especially going to a predominantly white High School, like how has your like childhood been here and how have you like navigated those kind of spaces too? Yeah, like, for a while, like, I just didn't really think too much about it. I just kind of, it's like, whatever, we’re all just different. But then I realized, like, it's like, I think, you know, just maybe having to assimilate more than, you know, I should have because I feel like assimilate like you know, because I was obviously the minority culture there so there's not only white culture there’s also American culture, but I'm from a place where there's Somali culture and then there's Muslim culture. Not culture, but there are things as Muslim I have to do and have to you know, so like, growing up like that was very difficult because none of that was something I saw on a daily basis within my friends or at school. So it's hard to, you know, like, hard to you know, differentiate between, differentiate between the two because it's so much easier just, you know, go into the dominant culture and just become just like them because who wants to be left out or feel different. So, that was something that I wish didn't happen, you know, but I think coming back to Augsburg and finding out back to who I was and who I want to be something that I really am thankful for, but I think like, it became more prominent in high school when like, you could really see the difference between how I’m supposed to be and like how, you know, things are because, like, you know, drinking culture becomes a thing and like, you’re Muslim and you can drink, you know, and like, and like, people are going to parties, and it's like, hey, like, you don't do that. It's like, you know, it's like, you start feeling differently, okay, where can I go where I don't feel different anymore. You know, when I found people who are, you know, very similar to myself, it's like, I can, you know, be myself I don't feel different. I feel like I'm normal with everybody around here. But that doesn't mean like, I don't like enjoy, like then, as I keep growing see, like, this is growth like as I'm growing and becoming an adult, I see that it's okay. Like I can do both like even though I like, you know, I having my friends who like me it's I also have a lot of friends who aren't Muslim or, you know, Somali. And I'm growing, like, every day knowing that I can it's okay like I can differentiate, differentiate between the two. It's I know people can do that, but I can do this, I can just be myself. It's fine. I'm comfortable like this. Yeah, so that's how I've kind of navigated through my life so far. And like, seeing those differences of, you know, of like, American culture in general, you know, not like not drinking and like not doing those kinds of things within like, I use this term, broadly like black culture. It’s so different everywhere. Yeah. But do you ever feel a disconnect from that because of it? Like, I guess I don’t know, it's the same thing though kind of, you know, it's like, but like people don't really understand this is like, there’s when you when you start to say that, you know African American culture is you know totally black culture like I you know like I don't know like that you know and people can argue like you know, that is black culture but at the same time like I don't know if I'm thinking that you can't just say oh and like the people Africa that's African culture, but do you know how many countries are there are in African how many people speak different religion I would speak speak different languages and how many different religions there are and like, how so different people are in Africa like that, like, what is that? That is not black culture too? Is that just this specific culture, like, you know, like, you could say, it's like, you can't really put this whole thing in a box and say, you know black culture is, it's becoming American culture, like pop culture because black people influence so many things around the globe that yet people don't want to acknowledge that you know it's like we from social media which black people control you know, like you know, a little like you know what is it from mannerisms to like new words, slang like everyone like and people are making money from this kind of stuff and it’s like black Twitter controls, you know, like we created this is our stuff that just people think it's cool you know, just taking blackness and removing it from black people. That's what people want sometimes, you know, so… But for me, I just think that it's you know, acknowledging like there is difference, but if you're suspecting it, like you know, for I like, like Somali people for example, or Muslim, Muslims or whatever they may be in their culture because there's some things that are Islam and there's some things that are Islamicade, I think that I learned that it's like the culture behind it that influences the religion. But the culture aspect and with that America like, you know, some Muslims in America have whether it be Arab culture and with different culture there exists within like Arab nations and black culture it’s just like just difference in culture. It's literally like, like, or for me, like, I'm black. But you know, I don't I'm not like I'm also i'm not even African American. But like, again, like I'm SomaliAmerican. So there's a difference acknowledge that, hey, there's a difference. And I respect that difference. It’s like you don't have to, you know, to go into that culture, you can do whatever you want too, but like at the same time that you acknowledging that there's a difference between Somali culture and African American culture, that's what I think and like, kind of respecting those differences at the same time. That's not saying that those cultures cannot like you know intertwine or whatever, like people can do whatever they want, like I can, you know, even if I wanted to I could abandon my Somali culture and you know, going to different like you know culture, not culture but just like do different things that resemble that are not in quote on quote Somali culture, but at the same time it just kind of like people do what they want and like, these things are there, it's not saying one is better than the other, just that that's what they are. You know, I feel like that erasure that a lot of like, immigrant families have I think it's a clash because a lot of parents come in and they have this whole mindset and that they have these beliefs and these cultural beliefs, whether it be whatever and then they come to America [incoherent] their children's are acting a lot different than..out there acting like oh my God, why, you know, becoming so different Americans, whatever, that's total disconnect between the parents and the children that people have. And that's where this conversation becomes like, you know, that's the them and us like very strict, you know, and like, being able to, like, you know, you know, acknowledge it and like, you know, respect it is one thing you know, but same time understanding that, you know, you're from this other thing it’s cool too you know, like understanding. But you can know both, you know, I don't know. if, that makes sense. I get what you're saying. And yeah, I mean, and it sounds like you are like very comfortable like having these like, different identities of yourself. Yeah. And like, overlapping them, like with Muslim culture and black culture and Somali culture and all those things and like, that just makes you, you. Yeah. Um, but do like any of your other friends or like do your siblings struggle with having all those different identities and being comfortable with that? You know, my siblings, I like to, I think they're so like, my siblings are so smart and they're just so like, you know, free and you know, I don't know how they feel about that. I hope they’re… I can see that they're dealing with it in a very way that's comfortable for themselves. And, you know, I try to talk to them and see if everything's all right. So in the future, maybe like, I’ll ask them, even more about that, you know, just trying to figure that out. But yeah, I think they're doing a good job handling that and but overall, I think people kind of kind of, like, the hard thing is when you mix culture, religion and like, at the same time, you can be a part of for me, like I can be I can do whatever I want, and do things at different part of different cultures. And like, you know, whether it be American culture, whatever, but at the same time, as long as it doesn't like, you know, go against my religion. That's what it is. Yeah. And do you see your friends like, very similar to you in that way? Yeah, I think my friends are very similar I think that usually people like to surround themselves with people who are like very similar to themselves, you know, right. Right, right. Well, that's good. I'm just a couple more questions just like out of curiosity, like how do you feel about the use of the n-word in the black community? Or within like, African immigrant community? Aw man… Not to get controversial. Okay, well, like I just think that. I don't know. Like, I think it's something that a lot of people on social media, especially, you know, Twitter have, like debated about forever, you know, and I think that, you know, I use, I use the N word, and I think that it's something that, like that word one, has been reclaimed by the black community. And I don't think, you know, I just think that it's something that has like been it wasn't just for African American people I feel I feel like it was for black people you know it’s aimed at Black people you know like and I'm out here if I'm saying like me and African American friend of mine you know or even a Liberian friend like you know my friend BK or anybody you know like or Somali friend so we could go out and somebody can call us the n-word because they don't know we’re Somali they don't know anything or Muslim they just see we’re black so you know, I just think that alienating people from the something like something that I don't think is even a big deal like that it's like why have these things why why further separate us from each other you know, I think it's something that's kind of bring us together you know, and we can fight people who are saying it like, you know, white people and like you know, other people who are not black saying it all the time willy nilly that I see like at parties or whatever, like like where maybe I see like not parties like I don't really go to parties but I see like on twitter i people are always fighting like, like I don't know they say like, you know some songs have the n-word so why can’t I sing the song? If it's like at a if I can’t say the n-word if it's in the song? It’s just a song I don't mean it, but it's like still like if somebody is not comfortable with you using the word, why do you want to use the word? It's a word, it's a word that like, why would you want to use it? For what reason? No, literally. That was a good answer, I totally agree too. Like is there anything else that I like didn't ask that like you've been itching to say? Um… not really I think we talked about a lot of stuff. But I just think we all are all going I don't know we're all going through this world just like so new, and we don't know what's going on and think, how old are you? Like 20? 21 21. Okay I’m 21 too, and just like you know maneuvering through this world, I just think we all should be like, you know, this is so cliche, but you know, honestly very kind and just kind of respectable about each other because especially like other people of color, because we're going through, like a lot, you know, and that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful to other people like of not color but I'm saying like, it's, you know, especially hard, especially in spaces where you're not the majority, and you feel different all the time. So I just feel like we should all be better people to each other, you know, and that's something that, you know, we can all do on micro scales, like we often we can do that by doing little things and it's not these big grand gestures of, you know, acceptance or whatever that usually like, you know, that are going to do the most work. I feel like little things add up and make really big difference, you know, so, I thank you for your time and you’re doing some really important stuff. Thank you. Um, do you have any questions for me about like, what I asked, anything like that how it’s going to be used, anything? Yeah. What's like so what's so after this it's going to go like, is you're going to give it to your professor something like what is he gonna do? Yeah, after this, I'm going to like transcribe it and so like write everything out that you said. And basically like, write a paper about it and like about the topic in general and basically use you as quotes. Wow. I give a presentation, basically, like taking quotes of what you said and presenting it to the class. All right. It’s kinda cool! Yeah, that’s cool. That’s cool. You had a lot of good things to say too. So. I think I have I have a lot to use. Okay. I’m glad I could be of some help. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Anthony James, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: Transcript from Oral History “A Muslim in the Military from Minnesota” Interviewee: Anthony James Interviewer: Tyler Caldwell Date: April 12, 2019 Tyler: You can start off with your name, date of birth, and like where you are from. Anthony: Perfect. I'm starting now? My name is Anthony Jame...
Show more Transcript from Oral History “A Muslim in the Military from Minnesota” Interviewee: Anthony James Interviewer: Tyler Caldwell Date: April 12, 2019 Tyler: You can start off with your name, date of birth, and like where you are from. Anthony: Perfect. I'm starting now? My name is Anthony James. I was born February 9, 1994, I’m 25 years old. I was born in Minneapolis, Minnesota. Been here for most of my life, practically all of it, except for when I travel for the military. But that's about it. Tyler: And then what inspired you to join the military? Or when did you join? Anthony: I joined…So I'll start with the first part of that question. What inspired me to join was, I didn't know what I really want to do after high school. So I was like, well, and it's ironic that the army I picked was just because they're the first ones who got to my high school, because either going to be the Marines or the Army, but my school is pushing the army so they let them in first before they let the Marines in. So that’s how I joined the Army. I was 17 so my mom actually signed the paperwork for me to get in. And then what inspired me outside of that, really, I didn't have any inspirations. So I joined 2011 of July, July 2011. That summer and then I was in their little I don’t remember what the program's called maybe you do. Do you remember when you get in and before you leave, you're in like a program that like suppose it was will train you on stuff like, like army knowledge programs. I don’t remember what it was called. Yeah, so I was doing that for basically almost like a year and so I left for basic and stuff. Tyler: The delayed entry program? Anthony: There we go. I was in delayed entry. So did that for almost a year until I graduated, and then went straight to basic and Fort Benning, Georgia. Tyler: Right. So yeah, kind of based on when you join the military. Did you look up to somebody that was in the military Did you know anybody who's in the military? Anthony: My older brother he was in the army but I really didn't really care because he didn't do anything cool. And then I had like grandparents who are also in the military but I kind of didn't more from myself and really look up to anyone. I guess part of it was more like I want to be better than them all I picked this tough job I did this thing so that was kind of my logic at you know, 17. Tyler: Did your family members support your decision join the military or do you have any Muslim friends? What was their reaction to you joining? Anthony: At the time when I joined I wasn't Muslim I was, I guess you could say a nondenominational by went to a Catholic High School and my whole family's Christian. So actually instead of having friends are Muslim I don't really have any and didn’t know any. But my family was saying oh, we support you but you're going to kind of regret it and also my mom she signed the paperwork for me to go, so if it wasn't for her, I wouldn’t have been able to go at the time. So, I did have support they just told me be careful what you ask for. Tyler: Alright, so now let's go to basic training. So any notable events in basic training? When did you go first off? Anthony: I went, let’s see here, I left June of 2012, like June 28. But I didn't start…I flew into Fort Benning and I didn’t start until after the Fourth of July but I wouldn’t say any other notable events. I mean nothing outside of the crazy stuff that we have that goes on like a daily basis there wasn't anything. I guess racially outside of religion…I know its really about religion but racial. We had a white soldier make a noose and do it on a black soldiers bunk and try saying it was like was just a joke and stuff so we had all this racial tension for a while. Tyler: That was in basic training? Anthony: Yeah, that was in basic. Tyler: Here’s just some straight up answers. What MOS did you have? Anthony: 11 Bravo Infantry. Tyler: And what rank did you achieve? Anthony: E-4 is what I got out in, but they offer, you know “If you extend will get you your five” And I’m like okay. (sarcasm) Tyler: Now, do you remember were you exploring Islam at this time? Or it was it later in your military career? Anthony: It was later my military career at the time I was trying to go to the…because you remember how (basic training) had Sundays they'll offer you to go all to these are all different… these different services? So Sunday, I was I man, which one could I try and get some sleep in? So I'll go to the Buddhist one, because I just let you sit there and meditate, so I would go there to sleep. But I would say it was more later my military career that I started pursuing Islam and then seeing how the army doesn't really…once you're out of basic the army doesn't cater to Muslims whatsoever. Tyler: Did you meet any other Muslims in the military? Anthony: I did, I met quite a few just because of being in Minnesota, you me a lot of East African Muslims. So that was kind of like my experience was meeting them and being friends with them. And then having like, some experiences where there wouldn't be anywhere for us to pray. There wouldn't be anywhere for…there's only like a chaplain who like basically like, you know, a Christian chaplain, they have the cross on their uniform and stuff. So you wouldn't have an imam and you wouldn't really have your own area to go pray. But the only prayer they would really, I mean, the chaplains would offer, you know, other things will always predominantly for Christian background. And I know that's only because Minnesota maybe, in units predominant Christian may might have changed if you go to different states, but as far as I know, at least in Minnesota, and then in Georgia, as well was predominantly Christian. Tyler: So that was throughout your whole tenure in the military? Anthony: Yeah, throughout my whole tenure there. Tyler: You never saw like a Muslim chaplain? Anthony: I mean, only in basic, but once you got outside, it was mainly Christian. Because in basic, you know, they have, you know, how many thousands of people there at one time, but when you start to get in to individualized units, you know, it's only like a Christian chaplain I've seen. I mean, they'll offer you to pray or whatever and, you know, whatever, they'll get you like a room to pray in. So, the chaplain will try and do their best to accommodate but there was nothing that was already set in place for like Muslim soldiers. So, a lot of times I wouldn't see Muslims soldiers pray. It was kind of like on Sunday, they say like, Oh, you want to go to prayer? You know, they have Bibles and everything. And it would be mainly for like Christian soldiers. Yeah, but then like the food-wise. So you know, here at Augsburg, they offer you different options like turkey sausage, or, you know, turkey bacon, right? In the army it’s, you know, “you only get the regular sausage if you get it!”. So there wasn't like any other extra options. So it's kind of like either you eat the food or you don't eat it. Tyler: So it’s kind of like basic training would you say? Anthony: Yeah, well, even when you are in your unit and there wouldn't be much options you get the little whatever the cooks making, then that's it. either you eat it or you don't. Tyler: Then grooming standards. I mean, if that played any role, was there anything? Anthony: Not that I ever noticed, we all shaved our facial hair, even if we didn't want to. Or do push-ups. But I've never, on my part myself, never experienced anything like that. Or the soldiers I came in contact with, which I'll say only ones I contacted they never faced any discrimination based on facial grooming. Tyler: So just a general question. Was there anything that made it especially difficult to be in the military as a Muslim? Anthony: I would say the lack of knowledge of Islam and kind of like the like the hate that was like, so my unit before I even got there, they deployed quite a few times. And then we got there we did our stuff or deployments and you know, went over once to Kuwait. But I would say it was difficult because you have this were like, “Oh they're the bad guys”. You're fighting in Muslim countries, right? So they're bad guys, there was always like resentment towards Muslims, not by being like a general but like, because you're there. And that's who your enemy is, like, you just start hating them. I guess that's a good way to put it. It's like a bred contempt that you would like do that things you would say like you would…actually, I'll give you a better example. So we're doing JRTC, you know what JRTC is? So basically JRTC is Tyler: Like a field exercise? Anthony: Yes a field exercise that you do before you deploy. And what you do is you go down the Fort Polk, Louisiana, awful place. You go to Fort Polk, Louisiana, and you do a joint training with the Air Force with, you know, other army brigades. And it's like, a giant show, right. And so you would do scenarios that you'd see in the Middle East, like you'd have to go room clearing, you would have to go into mosques, you know, and so we will get told don't shoot at the mosques but then you'll see soldiers shooting at the mosque, or they will purposely put people on the mosque to make us shoot at them and it’s kind of like, and that kind of, I believe, bred, this willingness to go after places of worship. And I mean, we've never done a training exercise where we went into like a church or to a synagogue, it was always mosques, which I'm understanding most of our wars that we fight have been in Muslim countries. But it's kind of hard when you start seeing that the only place that you target is only mosques and that your enemies are only Muslims really. So it kind of creates this, like, “I don’t want to kill people like me, but it's like these people that you're with…they're all you got. So I know for me, that was kind of hard trying to figure out what's right and what's wrong. And you know, just seeing how the training progressively was always focused on Muslims and I'm at one time in JRTC, we had to attack the mosque and so the rules were supposedly you can’t attack the mosque because that where civilians are going to be well, we got told well, “there's a there's a gunman on the roof, we gotta go clear it”. So you know, we have to stack on the door, kick it in there. Their like, “be careful” like “civilians”. You know, how like you have your trainers there, they would be mock civilians and stuff. So it was just a mess of it all. So it creates like an inner conflict. Because you know, that place is sacred, let's say you gotta do your job. So it doesn't matter what sacred things take precedence. Tyler: At this time did other soldiers know you were Muslim? Anthony: Some of them. More of the ones that are like in my fire team, and then within my platoon, so maybe my platoon knew but not there wasn't really…I'll say my company knew but, in the battalion, no, not really. Tyler: Did they react like any differently around you? Like, during these exercises, maybe or? Anthony: No, they didn't care because I was, I'll go with them and do whatever I need to do. I'm not gonna let that stop me. I remember what was at one time, we had just got done with like the field training. And we just came back to like, the barracks and stuff about to eat. And all they had was like pork options. I'm like, Man, I'm going to eat because I haven't eaten in like, almost all day and stuff because we went out to the field for a couple of days. And I had just finished off my little MRE and I'm like, Man, I'm starving. So like, if I eat…because we're going to go right back out to the field in the morning. So I like, I was like forced to eat like pork products because I'm like, there's not enough for me to eat right? They don't they offer only offer pork chops and like potatoes and potatoes are a little bit you know, they don’t give you extra. So it's like, I'm gonna go out and do this again and be able to function I got eat this. So that's kind of my friend was like, Oh, I know. He was joking. And we both laughed always like, “Oh, I know you I could trust you.” I was like, why that he was like, “you're Muslim. You eat pork and all this other stuff, he was like, anyone who eats bacon is a good guy in my eyes”. I'm like, alright man. (sarcasm) Tyler: So, any events, I guess, do you remember like when Trump proposed, like IDing Muslims? I did. And when he did the travel ban, I thought it was f*****g stupid. We never really talked about it in the army. It was just one of those things where we didn’t care. We just had other things that were more…because I think at that time was when we were getting ready for our deployment to Egypt around that time and stuff. So we weren't really concerned about that. So…let me give a timeline. So Kuwait was in 2012 or 2013 and Egypt was, what was that, was like ‘16 I believe…it was either ‘15 to ‘16 or ‘16 to ‘17. Tyler: Egypt? Anthony: Yeah. So we went to the Sinai for like this like peacekeeping mission…it was a joke you just sit there in the sand for nine months and you don’t even get like, it gets taxed it's because it’s not considered like a combat deployment so you get taxed on it and everything was just trash. So at that time, I think it was about ‘16-‘17 because that's when Trump was probably proposing that travel ban stuff so that's when when that was going on we weren't really worried about it in the army and I really care I just thought it was kind of stupid. Tyler: So, I was telling you this statistics about like Muslims in the United States compared to in the military for why do you think that is? Or do you think do you think there are Muslims in the military like hide their, like don't write it on their dog tags on purpose? Anthony: I can see it I don't know anyone who hid it but I understand why the fear of depending on like the unit you're in…maybe if it's all white or if it's you know, one denomination that you won't be accepted or you don’t want the other guys to think they can’t trust you or you know, because of religious beliefs are you just not inclined to want to join the military amazed because you're predominantly fighting and Muslim countries that you like, why would I want to go fight you know, people who believe the same thing I believe in? (Paused at 15:15) So I can see why but from what I seen, and from what I know, from the individuals I spoke to who were Muslim they had on their dog tags they were practicing but only outside the army…and the army you didn't bring your religion in…you know like the army says don't talk about religion or politics or race. You know, we are all green and you know, just a whole little “all for one, one for all” type of thing. Tyler: Is there anything else like you want to add about being Muslim in the military? Were there any other difficulties or was overall, was the army accepting what you believed? Anthony: I think it was more than me just didn't care, you know, as long as you didn't do anything that would affect morale or didn't do anything that would cause a disturbance the army really didn't care what you believed in. And you know, just because we're like, they say like, we never really talked about religion, we just talked about other things. Those just you know, kind of always pushed aside and not worried about and then like I said, like the army doesn't accommodate, doesn't offer extra things. And now why is that? Who knows, but the cooks only make one certain type of food and I'm only speaking from being in Georgia and then in Minnesota, so maybe if you were somewhere else in the country that'd be larger Muslims in a unit and it might be different but from what I've seen that it's a low number like you said by the numbers that is such a low amount of Muslims who are out in the open about it but I mean that's kind of really it that I got on it wasn't really much of any other struggles outside of that. I mean, the army just sucked sometimes. We just had to deal with it. Tyler: Alright, so overall your entire experience in the military you would say as a Muslim it was positive? Anthony: No my overall experience in the army was over I was just. It was trash it sucked. You know the stuff that you have to go through the stuff that you can't unsee sometimes, the training that we got, I remember we were told we would have to be willing to kill kids if they had guns that we they wanted shooters not people are going to hesitate so getting trained like, all not directly obviously, know the targets will never be like children but being told on the side like we need you to be able to kill kids because this is what can happen, you know? So you will have to deal with that or you know going away from family for so long like you know being in Germany for three years and, your family and you get used to it we know still take, you know still sucks and then if you feel like there's no options for you religiously, it didn't bother me too much. By I know for others it really did that they couldn’t practice the way they wanted to. There's not really a time for you to try and go and pray five times a day especially depending on what you got going. If you're in the field all day you're not going to go off and you know pray and there's you know, or even if you're back in the barracks, there's always something for you to do. “why are you doing that go clean your weapon” or “go get ready or go…” you know whatever when you have your downtime you just want to rest and sleep so it's just really hard to find time to practice yourself. And I mean that's for a lot of religions not just Muslims. The army doesn't really allow for religion to really prosper which I can understand why you don't want to cause issues within a unit but I mean it does care to Christian soldiers so…actually a prime example, it was ever on like on Good Friday or something you know, they might remove whatever might be for Catholics…so I've seen that before but never for Muslims. Nor Ramadan did, like “no you gotta eat and drink”. They would, for sure, force us to drink water. I drank it because I know I would get heat stroke and die but for others who said like “oh, we've done this before we don't want to” they're like look if you don't then they make like a big issue about it but there are coming from a safety concern, and they're more for religious so it was something that the unit had to try and work out that I knew for sure happen especially when we were Louisiana. It was just so hot. And they're like this is like a medical hazard, if you don't do this. So that was probably a big…and so that's actually a big issue I saw was probably when we were in Louisiana and someone doesn’t want to be told “we’re fasting” and “we don't want to drink water” and they were like no “we need to drink water or you can't be out there because you're liable to like get heat stroke and die” so they basically like…they just kept them out of the field sometimes so that they could do what they need to do. But that was about it. Tyler: So like so other Muslims that would join the military…is there any advice you would give them before they join? Anthony: I would let anyone who joins the military, not just Muslims, understand that it's not a place that you will feel welcome, as a Muslim, to get experience. you'll find people who are staying lifelong friends but just understand that it's not going to be what you might think it is and that's something that no recruiter ever bring up you know you never hear about religion brought up in the military even when you do like briefs, religious tolerance isn't ever talked about. it's more about sexual harassment, rape, and then like equal opportunity for soldiers who are homosexual. But religious was always left out of the briefs. Actually I can't think of one brief and I've been to a lot. If they ever had religion in it. Do you remember any? I don't remember one religious brief. Tyler: I think we had some chaplains, like, give briefs. But I can think of any specifically. Anthony: Mainly when we had chaplains it was about suicide prevention. So you can come talk to us. But that was about it. I'll just tell them like, hey, just be ready for whatever it is, most times it’s not going to be welcoming. It's gonna be kind of like shh and hidden. You don't talk about it. You don't think about it. Tyler: Interesting. When you say this…would you guess this is like infantry units especially? Anthony: I've never I've never been outside of an infantry unit before…so I have honestly no idea maybe but…honestly that's a good question. Tyler: Would you say then religion in general is really difficult? Anthony: Yeah, I know for sure. Religion general would be something that's not talked about in the military. But we may because of like our little culture that we have of, you know, but I can't think of any time that I've seen anything else but have a Christian chaplain know even when I basically had all different MOSs or when we were and…you've been to Camp Ripley, right? Or no? Tyler: I have not. Anthony: Okay. So whenever there's like, whenever it's a weekend we went up there we would have like different units. I've never seen like a imam, not least I can recognize. There were always those chaplains with the crosses on so… Tyler: Do you know would you have access to one if you needed it? Anthony: If I asked, I know they will probably find one for me. But it wouldn't, it wouldn't be something that'd be right away. Especially if you're back at your unit, you would have to wait probably a couple hours, maybe a day or maybe you'd have to wait till next drill to meet with one. I never asked I shouldn't say for sure. I just know there wasn't one in our building. Right. But if you're probably on like a larger military installation, you could probably get access to one. But that's if you're there. So maybe for active duty it is probably easier I should say. Active duty is going to be easier. In the Reserves/National Guard I would say no. Because a lot smaller. Tyler: All right. So were you ever in garrison, like in a unit that is not about to be deployed? So like in the United States and just… Anthony: Like just stationed somewhere? Yeah, Fort Benning, Fort Polk, and that's it really, Tyler: And you had no access to an imam or anything? Anthony: We would, I never asked for one. At Fort Benning I wasn't really practicing because that's when I first got in and stuff. And in Fort Polk I was more of wasn't really thinking about it was because I hated there so much. My mind was just everywhere else. So I didn't really care too much to really search. It's more when you get back home, like when you’re back in like your regular drill. Whatever you want to call, armory, that you might want to do your own prayer service. But even then, like when you're in garrison, or when you're going on how to do this training for however long it is, you know, I never really worried about it and then…when I was in Fort Benning, I wasn't a Muslim at the time. Because that was so early in. So that was about it. Tyler: So in garrison, like things like Ramadan and stuff. Was that more lenient would you say? Yeah, yeah. I mean, like, then you could do it because then you have like a, you'd be done at you know, five o'clock or whenever your shift would be over. So then you'd be able to go do it or if you don't really have much going on, they don't really care what you did. But that’s more…I guess. Yeah. So when you're more in garrison, you just relaxing you have more time but then when you go into your training and when you have to be consistently moving that’s when you really don't have the opportunity to do that. Garrison's different. Tyler: All right, then I do not think I have any more questions. You have anything else? Anthony: I do not but thank you for choosing me. … Tyler: So I shall ask the question again…so like you're Muslim friends now like how do they… How do they respond to know that you fought in like Afghanistan and Iraq? Anthony: We never talk about it really. It's not something that gets brought up. We just…and I only have very few Muslim friends that I stay in contact with that were also in the military with, one who was a marine, others who are in the army, but we really don't talk about it much. There isn’t much to say. and people who I know that I'm Muslim that didn’t serve we never really talked about is asking like, “Oh did you deploy” and I’m like yeah I went to Kuwait and Iraq and stuff like that when we do our convoys in and out but outside of that, I don't like talking about it with them. And then like they don't understand. So, it's kind of like you tell him, “man that stuff, I didn’t really want to be there. Then they’ll be like “what didn’t you sign up for that?” (laugh) No, it's not the point, you don't sign up to go do that stuff. So that's all.
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Sabrin Gadow, 2019
Collection: Augsburg Central Health Commons Oral History Project
Search Result: Sabrin Gadow Fri, 04/26 03:35PM 32:37 SUMMARY KEYWORDS laughing, muslim, queer, people, identities, feel, campus, somali, augsburg, community, nice, islam, events, culturally, indistinguishable, mom, guess, friends, msa, person SPEAKERS Sabrin Gadow, Brendan Descamps Brendan Descamps ...
Show more Sabrin Gadow Fri, 04/26 03:35PM 32:37 SUMMARY KEYWORDS laughing, muslim, queer, people, identities, feel, campus, somali, augsburg, community, nice, islam, events, culturally, indistinguishable, mom, guess, friends, msa, person SPEAKERS Sabrin Gadow, Brendan Descamps Brendan Descamps 00:01 Okay, hello. S Sabrin Gadow 00:02 Hello, hello. Brendan Descamps 00:02 So first I'd like to say thank you for being here S Sabrin Gadow 00:04 Of course. Brendan Descamps 00:06 So if you would like to introduce yourself and get started that way. Sabrin Gadow 00:10 Sabrin Gadow Page 1 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai S Sabrin Gadow 00:10 Yeah! Okay - My name is Sabrin Gadow. My major is - I'm double majoring in history and Poly-Sci with pre-law concentration. My pronouns are they/them My gender is non existent. My ethnicity is Somali and "my other important identities to you:" Um - Black and tall. Brendan Descamps 00:28 Tall, alright. that's true you are tall. S Sabrin Gadow 00:30 I have to rep the game so - [laughing] Brendan Descamps 00:32 Okay - [Laughing] Okay, so the first question I'd like to dive into if you want to start here would be: "what connections Do you have - personally, to Islam?" S Sabrin Gadow 00:45 Yeah so I was raised Muslim. My entire family is Muslim. Um - even now most of my family's still Muslim. Um - yeah, Islam is beautiful, beautiful religion. I love the - Being culturally-raised culture Muslim was a lot different than being like - religiously-raised Muslim. Since I like being like - because my family was like actively practicing it, but it was more of a cultural thing for us. It was like being in that kind of environment was really nice - and having that kind of connection to people based on like, a sharing of identities was really nice. Yeah, ten-out-of-ten. Brendan Descamps 01:16 Okay - Um - I guess. I want to ask a follow up question. How have your various identities affected your relationship with Islam? And then I guess to add on to what you said about culturally versus religiously? Um - like, I guess how does that tie into that? S Sabrin Gadow 01:34 Um, yeah, so I - [laughing] I think it's funny because like - how do my various identities Sabrin Gadow Page 2 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai affect my relationship with Islam. [laughing] I'm not Muslim anymore. So - thats one. [laughing] Yeah, I guess just being like a kid recognize that like - uh - I was queer and realizing the - blatant homophobia. In the queer co - uh - not queer - in the uh - Muslim community. Especially my family, my mom the way she would just speak was just really vulgar. It made me feel like, like I was wrong or shameful. Or I wasn't like, actually being who I was. So that was really hard for me to like - am I - it's like to actually want to go down this road and actually be who I am? Like - live my truth but like - also inject my family, my - like my own identity, so you know - my ideas, my - ideologies. So that was a big thing. Um - But I guess with being non-binary, that came out later on. So I was like, whatever, felt like - we been knew - um - yeah I guess it was just hard because it's like, when I was a kid trying to find out who was, it was hard to distinguish how I was raised and who I wanted to be. But I feel like culturally vs. religious - religious Muslims are like, religiously, like when you're actually religious and you actually participate. And culturally is more about like, a culture around it. It's like that you can still be cultural - raisedculturally Muslim, and still be a religious Muslim, like, cultural describes, like the culture around it, instead of like, the actual belief and faith. So like, people who are raised like in the Middle East, they're, like, a lot of them are more culturally Muslim because they're raised, around that kind of thing, they understand a lot of concepts, or they'll be in certain ways because they're raised around that, or just - that's the way I view it - it might not be one-hundred percent accurate. So I apologize, that's just how I view it. I just say culturally Muslim, because I wasn't raised as, like a really strict Muslim. I was raised more with ideas and beliefs and like the culture around it, so like, I that's how I view myself. But later on, My mom was like, "Let's be Muslim!", and I was like, "let's not..." [laughing] Brendan Descamps 03:12 Okay, and you're - so you chose not to be religiously Muslim? S Sabrin Gadow 03:18 Um - Brendan Descamps 03:20 Or is that just kind of like something that came about? S Sabrin Gadow 03:22 Technically, I mean it just came about because, uh, my mom didn't get like really religious Sabrin Gadow Page 3 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai until like - like when we were kids she like made us go like Sunday/Saturday School, which is like, how like you learn about Islam and stuff like that, like a couple times, but then moving and like, they're really expensive. So it wasn't like a every kinda day kinda thing, and then around like eighth grade, she wanted us to be super religious, but I was just like, 'bro it's too late now." [laughing] I was like, "I'm 13 years old. You messed up." So after that, it was just kind of like, Yeah, and I mean, like, I still wore the headscarf. I was still like, I dressed modestly. I still was like presenting very Muslim, but I wasn't like - wrong with it. But I think like after I left high school then I was actually like - I'm not this anymore. So when I left my mom's house it was more about being like, "ugh, finally." Woah it's hot in here. Brendan Descamps 04:07 After you left high school, so after your senior year? S Sabrin Gadow 04:09 When I started Summer Bridge Brendan Descamps 04:10 Like, two years ago now? S Sabrin Gadow 04:13 Mhm. Brendan Descamps 04:15 Um - I guess, question. Um - if we can go back a little bit. If you're comfortable answering um - a follow up question. You said that things that your mother or, uh, family would say made you uncomfortable growing up queer. Did your family like, know about your queer identities? S Sabrin Gadow 04:35 Um - So - Tea. Uh, not really. So I was raised - So, my dad died when I was a kid. So it was an all-woman household so like we - my mom didn't really care about - if I was like more, Sabrin Gadow Page 4 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai I'm saying this with air quotes "masculine," because like, there was really no father-figure in the house so like, without my dad so it was like, we all took different on roles. So like, from the household to my dad's like, if I did more things that were considered air quotes "masculine" um - that was okay. It's like, that was okay. With being queer - I - we never really talked about it. Like we never talked about like, liking people. Um, when were kids it was all like, "save yourself until marriage." We were just like, "Bet." So it was never, like kinda that thing. Um - I think even if she had like an idea of it, she'd like, repress the fuck out of it. Because that in itself is like -no. Yeah, but no. Two secret realities. Brendan Descamps 05:20 Interesting. Okay. Um - And I'm, I am curious now, because you brought up this binary of like, culturally and religiously. I'm wondering if, um like that, like belief, or like, yeah, like that belief um - would have came out of like, your mother's like, or your family's like cultural sense, or like, their religious background? If that makes sense. S Sabrin Gadow 05:46 Hmm, tea. Um - So, I guess, like - um - In itself, technically, religously - because it does say that like, homosexuality is wrong, which is uh - one thing, but culturally, my entire mom's side - are just blatant homophobes. Like, she's always around, that kind of - kind of like ideas. Stuff like, that's like culturally. That could be the thing - but it's more about family. Brendan Descamps 06:05 Yeah. S Sabrin Gadow 06:15 Back in Somalia there were - there was like, instances of homophobia, I think. I'm not really positive on that. But I'm not sure. I guess. I think honestly, it has to like culture and like that sort of thing. That's their beliefs and that they were just on that shit. Sorry if I'm not like - too knowledgeable. Brendan Descamps 06:33 No, no, that's totally fine. Thank you. Okay. So I guess I'd like to move on and ask you just your experience then, like, more generally, this is um - This question I feel like already is going to like reiterate some of the things you've already spoken to. But I guess just Sabrin Gadow Page 5 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai generally, what was your experience as a queer person when you also identified as Muslim? S Sabrin Gadow 06:58 Whew. I feel like to explain that I'd actually share my coming out story, which is so horrible. So - Brendan Descamps 07:06 Just - preface: you don't necessarily have to share that - S Sabrin Gadow 07:08 Oh, it makes sense. No, no, I - it's like - um - so - [sighs] Um, so like when I - I moved to Hopkins when I was in - before I started my Junior year, and I was like, "new school - I want to be who I am as a person," this like - me like - I was like - Like a year into like coming-out actually being out with my friends. My sisters knew, but my mom obviously didn't. but like - people close to me knew and I was like - I'm more comfortable with it. I was like, "you know what, bet." I want to be who I am. This; That; and the Third. No one was going to tell me shit. Right? I was great. [laughing] It was cool for a bit. I hung out with the - obviously, I went to a new school and hung out with all the Somalis and Muslims just like - another asset because obviously it's a familiar space. I was drawn towards like people I know. So Somalis like the first choice. Um - it was cool for a bit. They ended up being very, very interesting people. I ended up getting outed because one of them was like, because we were - trying to become a presence, we tried to be - we tried to start the MSA up again the plan for the position at Hopkins was to be co-presidents so we could start like a prayer um - room and have like - all Muslim kids could get passes so we could actually pray during school without having to like - miss our prayers because we're in classes or because of the times class changes. We were like, yo let us like leave class - leave lunch and go to areas we can actually go pray. So that we're not having students in class neglect our religion, which is a great concept. Like - she was on her parents about it. She was like, "yeah, it's so dope and like, you know Sabrin? Like - they're like - they're gay. And I was just like, "why would you say that?" No! Sorry, her sister outed me because her sister was mad that I was hanging out with her sister because she was homophobic. And then her parents like, "you can't hang out with this - that person and the third and it was like weird. It was a weird situation for a bit. Um - It was shitty because I was so scared that my mom was going to find out. So it was like a weird experience. So with like the experience of being queer and a person that's Muslim? I actually learned how to keep my mouth shut. Sabrin Gadow Page 6 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai "Periodt." But I don't know - I guess just, instead of being super trusting I guess I learned that just like, at the end of the day people seem cool - until they're not. So that's my experience being queer and Muslim. Brendan Descamps 09:02 Thank you. Okay. When did you move to Hopkins? S Sabrin Gadow 09:07 Um - Junior year of high school. It was cool though. Very white. [both laughing] I mean I'm here! Brendan Descamps 09:21 Okay, so you said earlier that you um - you left the faith. And that was a personal choice to leave? S Sabrin Gadow 09:30 Yeah, I never really felt like I never - I didn't grow up super religious. So I never really felt that like - Connection in the first place. So like it wasn't like super hard for me to leave. I felt more constricted because I never liked believed - like I didn't have that strong belief so I felt like I was doing it more out of comfort and habit rather than like actually being a believer. So I felt - I was not really being - an authentic I was like, not really, like I was [indistinguishable] I was - but also like, I didn't think like what people who are actually Muslims. Since like I'm not actually believing it. Why am I wearing a headscarf? Why am I like - dressing modestly. I'm not labeling me. Yeah, you know, so like, I made the choice to like - do "once upon a time" - took my headscarf off and starting taking care of my hair. Obviously you can see - we're back with it. [laughing] Yeah, it was more - It was definitely a personal choice. It wasn't because of anything, I guess. It was more about, like, me being like, I wanna live my truth and not feel like I have to stay if it makes me uncomfortable comfortable Brendan Descamps 10:20 Okay - Yeah. That's powerful. With that, with all that being said, Do you - have you since then, the past two years, found any like belonging in faith - like other faith traditions or spiritual practices, since you had that experience with Islam? Sabrin Gadow Page 7 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai S Sabrin Gadow 10:38 Religion itself just makes me scared now. I've been burned before so we're done with it? [laughing] No, not really. I've never really been this religious. I kind of want to like - I feel when I older and more - like 100% like, my identity, who I am as person, maybe I can go back and reflect. But now - right now I'm just like this whole transitional page - transitional page, I'm in my life, where it's like college, like, where I'm going like, graduating like two years. So I have other things on my plate right now. From like, like, I don't have the time to think what I want to eat. Let alone religion. So, yeah. Brendan Descamps 11:11 Okay. And you mentioned when you're older, maybe you'll look back and reflect and like, take some time to, um - think about religion or spiritual practices. So have you heard or what do you think of the queer - like queer folks right now who are making space for themselves in Islam, in the movements like associated with those folks? S Sabrin Gadow 11:33 I hundred perc - I 100% stan. That is amazing. I love it so much. I think it's, it's amazing. I think it's really, um - I think it's really powerful. And it's really great just because it's dangerous to them because a lot of people in the community just specifically Somali people have the tendencies to be homophobic. And not only homophobic but there like, they like act out in violent ways so like literally attacked and harmed. So it's, I don't know about some but like - my experiences, like it's, so I'm like, I'm nervous for that. But gather doing something like that, that's really important and creating spaces because people have this whole like idea where it's like, you're either queer or you're Muslim, and it's like, no, I can be both. Just because I choose not to be doesn't have to be and it's great. Like, I am Muslim, I believe in my faith but I also who I am as a person, I can't change that God made me this way and it's like period. God made you who you are - periodt. You know? and it's like create space for that where you feel comfortable with your identity, and who you are as a person and your religion, [indistinguishable]. Brendan Descamps 12:26 Thank you, that's no - I like that. So in that case, would you ever consider restoring or reinvigorating your faith in Islam through an inclusive Islam movement? Maybe when you're older looking back since that's when you stated you would be interested in doing Sabrin Gadow Page 8 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai like - that? S Sabrin Gadow 12:41 I mean honestly, I'd be down. I think it'd be really, really cool. Yeah, it would be great. Especially just to meet like, really cool - people. People are Muslim cool and they're just really down like that be great. 10/10. Brendan Descamps 12:55 Som starting to shift the conversation towards community at Augsburg and colleges abroad. Do you feel a sense of community when you with your Muslim peers? You still have that like Muslim connection? S Sabrin Gadow 13:13 I'm trying to think - sorry. I was like, I'm trying to think, but I actually have Muslim friends, I do. It's actually funny - Last semester, I didn't. [laughing] So, like I don't have Muslim friends, but it's like, oh yeah! I do. It's - I don't know, it's like, I think I question people, because we each have shared identities like, but I think that isn't the reason I was like drawn to them. Like it wasn't the reason why we were friends. I think that like it's a lucky coincidence like, you're cool, and you're Somali and you're Muslim so like, bet, you know? I do feel a sense of community with them, because at the end of the day like they're really cool people. If they share a lot of identities with me whether it's like, them being Somali, you know, or some - or queer. So it's like, it's really nice to like, know that. There are people who are out there - they're like me or who are like - are like me, um off this campus. Yeah. Brendan Descamps 13:57 Okay. I guess in that case to like, do you experience any um - do you experience any, like prejudice on campus from Muslim peers? S Sabrin Gadow 14:08 Oooh, um - Sabrin Gadow Page 9 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Brendan Descamps 14:09 or discrimination against? S Sabrin Gadow 14:10 Not really. I don't really know a lot of Muslims, not going to lie. But most of them are really cool. I've actually never really experienced that kind of thing. I feel like Augsburg's campus - Is like - is different. Because like - it's Augsburg so you really can't be acting up [laughing] But no honestly, they're really cool and if I ever did have a problem - They would have to say to my face, so. Brendan Descamps 14:28 Okay. I think we alre- we definitely already covered this, about "is being Muslim connected in anyway to your ethnic identity?" Um - we kind of already covered how it is deeply tied to Somali culture - S Sabrin Gadow 14:41 Ooh. One of the same. [laughing] Brendan Descamps 14:46 Let's see - Oh okay, so since we already kind of explored that, how have you experienced Somali culture? In your case? Have you experienced Somali culture - without Islam being part of that? S Sabrin Gadow 15:02 So my culture is all about jokes. So its like [laughing] In my opinion, um - it's- I don't know it's like we just make a lot of jokes about like the shared identities, I'll ask people who I knew as a kid, we'd be like, what was your worst ass-beating? I'd be like, one time my mom came at me with like "this," or "this," or "that." And they'd be like, "Oh, that's it?" It's just like, we're just finding things. Um - we all suffered so violently [laughing] at the hands of everybody. Just funny moments or like - Most people have the - the connection with like being like translators for your parents, because like your parents - like, uh, my mom came over here to bring us here. So it's like, we're always like, speak for her helping her out. People have that shared kind of experience. Just, it's not all about like, sometimes it's Sabrin Gadow Page 10 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai more like we go through as an immigrant, or what you go through as a person color, being black, rather than like - and Somali. Especially being Somali in Minnesota, where it's uh or Minneapolis. Or Minnesota specifically, where it's like, we're so big, but they like everybody really hates us. So it's like, so we're always like, people just sat there and trust it, and it's like, Yeah - and why do they do this to us? and it's like - I don't know, but I guess it's more about like, the shared traits and common things that happened. Brendan Descamps 16:06 Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot more to it than just the religion aspect. Sure. Okay. Alright. So now, I'd like to definitely shift into, like campus experiences explicitly. Um - Do you have any connections to the Muslim Student Association or MSA? S Sabrin Gadow 16:28 Not really. I'm not gonna lie, first year, I was really like, "Oh my God. College, yeah!" So I made some empty promises where I was like, "Yeah of course, I'll attend a meeting." Never went. [laughing] Never went. It's just so horrible. Like, I should go. But, I'm not going to because like I - I mean I should go as a supporter and like be there to like, support my Somalis. But, um - it's probably not going to happen. But no, not really. They seem- they seem really cool, though. They seem really dope. Um - but a lot of others said they were always - are really nice and cool. So, and they always have like food there. So if I ever get hungry might have to stop by and say hello. [laughing] Brendan Descamps 17:03 In that case, you're not a member - necessarily. S Sabrin Gadow 17:05 I'm on their emailing list though. [laughing] I'm doing something right. Brendan Descamps 17:11 I guess, would you - since you never attended or you're not a member - would you feel welcomed in a space like that? Do you think? Sabrin Gadow 17:19 Sabrin Gadow Page 11 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai S Sabrin Gadow 17:19 I think I'd feel welcomed because I know all the Muslims there. I think I would still feel general anxiety. I have anxiety, but just like, really anxious around Muslims, just because I'm openly queer. So it's like it's hard and being Somali, people always assume I'm Muslim. So it's like that kind of dichotomy, where it's like, I'm not this, but I'm this. And I'm hated because I'm this, but not this. So yeah. Um - Welcome? Yes, nervous, but definitely. Brendan Descamps 17:43 Okay. Thank you. With that being said, since you don't attend, uh, MSA meetings, and you don't necessarily find like your community there. You feel welcome there. Right. You said you had friends. But that's not necessarily like your, like space you - right? S Sabrin Gadow 18:02 It's not my area. Brendan Descamps 18:02 Yeah. So what other identity based organizations have you been a part of? Or are you a part of here during your time, at Augsburg? S Sabrin Gadow 18:11 PASU, mainly. Just because PASU be - 10/10! Ugh. [laughing] Everyday! Shout out to PASU! They're really great. They put on a lot of great events. I love going there and they're always really nice and funny. All the people I know there are hilarious. Um - other than that - I've recently started going to uh, Queer Indig - Queer Indigenous and People of Color, (QIPOC). Which is actually really fun. Because one of my friends being the President, so I'm like, let me go support. But I'm like, I can't show up next year, let me go to like their last cool events. And it was actully really fun. They're really cool people. And it's like, it's nice. It's like this community, and it's like, it's just great for like, queer people of color and indigenous people of color, or - oh my god. [emphazing] "queer indigenous and people of color, which is really nice, because that's often like you live confined. Because most spaces are like - more queer spaces are just white, which is? [whispering] a-wholenother thing. But, yeah, PASU and QIPOC. Sabrin Gadow Page 12 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Brendan Descamps 18:58 Okay, do feel like you'd be welcomed at QPA or? S Sabrin Gadow 19:03 A little - I mean, Yeah of course - QPA is Yeah, no, I actually never went to their events. They seem - they seem nice. Yeah, I should go. Brendan Descamps 19:16 Okay. Um - So you were definitely invigorated when talking about PASU. Can you talk a little bit about how that community or how that like is a community for you? Or how this community makes you feel here on campus? S Sabrin Gadow 19:34 Um - going to a predominately white school - It's just it's nice to know, that there's other people on campus that share similar identities with me. So I'm always just like, "Ah, yes, another Black person!" Like I'll see you around the quad. I like to make eye contact, like I see you - I know it's hard. Or just like people who are in the simi - the struggle. Like, um also, PASU members are just fun, like they - like the one last month that I went to other than - event, the - the, elections, was like this trivia night they had and it was like fun because we were all like super comp - I was super competitive [laughing] I'm not trying to make assumptions, I was super competitive. It was fun, we got to bond by - we all make fun of eachother and it was nice and we joked around. And also like a lot of people I know go to - go to PASU events it's always like catching up with friends you dont get to see that often or just like kiking it up with the one's you do see often. They always have food. The board's great. Uh - like I don't know, PASU just be moving - I think I just feel comfortable in that space and that's not something I really feel all the time around campus. So it's nice to like come to a certain place or come to an event like - be like, "wow, I don't feel weird," or I don't feel anxious, I just feel comfortable. Brendan Descamps 20:37 Awesome. And that necessarily isn't a feeling that you get at a PWI, primar - primarily - or predominantly white institution, right? Okay - Sabrin Gadow 20:51 Sabrin Gadow Page 13 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai S Sabrin Gadow 20:51 It's like the saying where it's like, "you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable," or - not. [laughing] Brendan Descamps 20:57 Is that a saying? [laughing] S Sabrin Gadow 20:58 Yeah, it's horrible. [laughing] People would say that like - you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable. And it's like well "comfortable with being uncomfortable," am I just comfortable then? But that's off topic Brendan Descamps 21:07 Not - I feel like that might be a little on topic considering like all the um - events that have been on campus recently With folks "challenging" students of color based on like, quoteunquote "academic freedom," but S Sabrin Gadow 21:22 Oh my god - Brendan Descamps 21:22 That's um - that would be the side note but, um - So I guess how have - identity-based organizations had an effect on your college experience? S Sabrin Gadow 21:34 Um - they made me feel just, like a sense of community that like, that wasn't just like that compounds like with like PWIs, since community feels fostered like, we have to hang out with each other because there's so like, little of us but like, PASU it just feels organically um - or like Identity-based ones they just feel organically - I feel like I can just give people that I know or don't know, it just is feels - it feels nice. It has made my overall college experience, much better. I feel like if I wasn't - because of those kind of, uh - groups who were just like organizations that if I didn't go to I would've felt like, it was just me and my Sabrin Gadow Page 14 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai couple friends who were living off campus. I would have not been able to like socialize with people as much or as often. Or like just randomly want something to do, like hey I saw your event, you seem really dope. You know? So yeah, it's definitely made me more social, maybe more like I feel like I actually belong on this campus. Yeah, that's awesome. I love that. When did you get involved with PASU and QIPOC? Uh - QIPOC has been like twice. [laughing] [indistinguishable] I came, and was like, "hello." I left. I mean, I actually haven't gone to many PASU events this year because I've just been working like all Thursdays and their events are Thursdays but I know a couple of the board members so I was hitting them with that - being like, "alright, of course I'll come." [laughing] Um - But I honestly, I haven't been to PASU for a while now. Like, I've been active member for a while, since like freshman year just because we're first year - just because I was a first year, "Yes, PASU, of course!" And yeah, so they have my heart forever. Brendan Descamps 23:00 No, that's awesome. A lot of first years are timid, necessarily like when it comes to like student organizations. So it's good to hear that you came out right away and started attending their events and meetings. S Sabrin Gadow 23:11 Oh, that's because Summer Bridge forced us. I was on campus all summer and I was bored. Brendan Descamps 23:14 Summer Bridger - S Sabrin Gadow 23:15 God. Brendan Descamps 23:18 Okay. Um, how have these organizations helped you grow as a person or a student here on campus? If at all - Sabrin Gadow 23:33 Sabrin Gadow Page 15 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai S Sabrin Gadow 23:33 I mean, I just - I don't think I'm like, grow - like I don't think there was anything changing about me. I think It was more just about feeling comfortable in spaces. Um - Yeah, I guess it's nice though now, because it's like recognizing more faces and more like other like [indistinguishable] areas. That's nice. Now, I'm just like, I feel more comfortable in other spaces because I actually take mine now. or - Yeah. Brendan Descamps 23:58 Okay. So, about student organizations and like academia, like academics here on campus - do you feel like being involved or like this fostered community, not fostered community, this organically produced community with PASU or other orgs have like helped you in your education academically or like, hindered it, depending on your involvement with it? S Sabrin Gadow 24:27 This year, obviously it's helped and I haven't gone the events. Last year, there was a whole time where I had been like, "I'm just going to spend a couple hours and do my homework." Homework never got done. [laughing] So I guess it's - it was definitely hard first year just to find that like balance of like, do my homework and like, still attending events - having fun, like being social. So I guess it's helped me, learning how to be better at time management - it's hindered me because I suck at time management. [laughing] Brendan Descamps 24:53 That's fair. I think we could all understand that. And uh - this - this week, the week before finals week. Do you think - how do you think you would have fared at an institution that wouldn't have identity organizations like PASU? In that case, like how do you think your education would have fared? S Sabrin Gadow 25:16 I think honestly it would have been worse because those kind of um - organizations that like are meant to create safe like, a space specifically for Black people and I think I would just feel alone on campus especially at a predominantly white school I would not be able to socialize with everybody all the time. Augsburg is super diverse, but like if I went to school at like, St. Thomas, I would've been - Sad all the time. Because it would have been like, I don't see anybody that looks like me, or like anybody who [indistinguisable], and it makes it like, it's all fun games, but like, nobody is going to get you - get you. All I'm going Sabrin Gadow Page 16 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai to say is skin-folk is not kinfolk. I'll say it again, skin-folks is not kinfolk. So I guess it's very important because it creates a community that someone could like focus on and find and help, especially at a PWI. Brendan Descamps 26:06 I wanted to go back. So PASU to you, is definitely like the main community that you feel like um - S Sabrin Gadow 26:14 Roll heavy Brendan Descamps 26:15 Yeah, definitely. Definitely your main source of community. But in regards, to like a large identity group on campus, then right? S Sabrin Gadow 26:24 Mhm - Brendan Descamps 26:24 Okay. I guess how do your um - queer identities intersect with how you interact with like, PASU? And like folks at PASU? Like - How does those - how do you how do your African slash, like black identities interact with your queer identities? S Sabrin Gadow 26:45 So in the Black community, specifically the African community, like African - like Africa, I found out there's like some homophobia in the Black community, a lot of homophobia. So that's always been hard. I feel like with Augsburg, being in college and being a little more open-minded, I'm not going to lie it doesn't really come up. I mean, I'll make a joke here in there, but a lot of people just assume I am because I hate men, which is 100% valid. I do a lot of anti-men jokes. And you know what? I mean all of them. I laughed so what? [laughing] So yeah, I guess. I mean, when I am, like, more openminded, being like, Oh, yeah, I definitely am queer. Then I think it's like - people are just like, "oh cool," like it's Sabrin Gadow Page 17 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai never been a problem for me. Especially like, at PASU events. I mean, could PASU do more events with like, could PASU do more events like thatare caterered to queer people, and or queer Black people? Of course, we all could, but it's never been an issue for me. Brendan Descamps 27:35 Awesome. Thank you. So I guess we can move on to some general questions. Would you recommend organizations like these incoming first year students? S Sabrin Gadow 27:46 Yes, I think if you're not coming in, like, like, say, like you do SOAR, it was alone, you didn't [indistinguishable] - good group of friends that you can come into the school year with, that's just what Soar is, you find like two people you like, you're roommates with them and your friends. If that's how it happened is over, which is great, because it helps you find people, meet people. Even if you didn't find people during SOAR, you met people during SOAR. It's just really great. I think it helps you find people you actually like, and they share identities with, not saying that shared identities is the end all be all, but I think it is important just to like know that like no matter what you'll still have a place that celebrates your identity and who you are as a person. Brendan Descamps 28:22 Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that. Um - So, I guess we kind of already touched on this but, um - Now, I'm just gonna ask it because it's here. [laughing] We talked about a little bit already. Is there a place on campus that you feel accepted in all of your identity simultaneously, where you feel like you can be 100% you and not be questioned about it? S Sabrin Gadow 28:46 When I'm hanging out my friends. My friends are cool shit. I love all of them. They're great. Like, I don't know, it's just like, it's nice, because they know who I am. They know what I'm about. So it's like, I never have to - actually have to pick and choose between what I want to be today, like do I want to be Black first? Do I want to be a non-binary? Be queer? Instead, I can always just been me. Yeah, so it's nice. Um - Yeah, so I guess now [indistinguishable] we'll see here. Sabrin Gadow Page 18 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Brendan Descamps 29:13 Yeah, definitely. I just had a thought come up and a question. Do you feel as though you have to pick and choose? Like, while you're in classes, or while you're just navigating a PWI, such as Augsburg? S Sabrin Gadow 29:27 Yeah, I actually, it's, it's been so weird, because I recently came out as non-binary. So it's been like, a really weird transition. Like, having to ask my people being like, 'Huh, they are." Or like, just like, now people ask me really weird questions. So it's like to stop that I have to be like, I'm just not going to talk about it at all and allow myself to be misgendered. Or I have to be like, "No, no, I'm not letting myself be misgendered." And I have to be like, "hey, not right." But then I have to sit there and like deal with all of those invasive, really weird questions. It's super weird, when, like, when I'm in class talking about something I like being like black and queer. And then like, I know, it's - I don't feel I have to pick and choose, but I feel I have to either up-play one or down-play the other. So I can't like, so like instead of like, talking about both, I'll be like, today I'll be Black today. I'm talking - I'm -it's not today I'll be Black. It's more like today we'll focus more on black topics. Then like queer topics. Or today we'll focus more on, "that - there" and not because like, like me, because my certain spaces. It's not everyday this, that, and the third. Does that make sense? Brendan Descamps 30:29 Yeah. Thank you for answering that. S Sabrin Gadow 30:32 Well it was a confusing answer. Brendan Descamps 30:33 It's a confusing topic. S Sabrin Gadow 30:35 Yeah, I was, like I don't know how to say it, like, like, for example like um - one of my classes I talk a lot about race. So my professor, I know he can't stand me, but I talk a lot Sabrin Gadow Page 19 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai about race cause otherwise it's like, "yeah, and what about it?" Like, I'll talk like three times - like once or twice, once or twice, like here and there more about like just being critical of heteros. But, it's ever like, but in other classes, it's more about like, like queer topics, or some classes. I'll talk more about - being Muslim, or like being Muslim - actually, I don't really talk about that at all, but like, you know, it really depends on the situation and the place. And what I've decided to be open about that day. Brendan Descamps 31:19 Thank you. At this time, I think we've covered a lot of bases. Um - and I want to open up some time to you if you feel as though you want to, like - revisit any topics. Or if you feel like we skimmed over something that you wanted to talk about more in depth. Or if there's something that's not, you know, that we didn't like talk about at all that you want to talk about? If not, that's totally fine to. We can make some space for that. S Sabrin Gadow 31:50 Um - I don't know, I guess we talked about questions, but like - I don't know. I think we went over everything - everything I think the overarching theme is that at the end of the day you have to be yourself and if someone's mad - It's like if someone is upset or wants to be mad at me, don't want to be my friend? Don't talk to me? Oh, no. [sarcastically] [laughing] Just be you. That's it. Brendan Descamps 32:18 Okay, great lesson. S Sabrin Gadow 32:21 Thank you. My Gemini moon popped out. [laughing] Brendan Descamps 32:26 As I hoped - it did. Okay, well, thank you, Sabrin. Um - It's been great. I appreciate you. S Sabrin Gadow 32:34 Thank you. Sabrin Gadow Page 20 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai Sabrin Gadow Page 21 of 21 Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Title: Transcript of Oral History Interview with Ikram Mohamud, 2019
Collection: Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project
Search Result: H: So to start off, um, could you say and spell your full name? I: My full name is Ikram Mohamud. Um, Ikram is my first name, so that's i-k-r-a-m. And then Mohamud: m-o-h-a-m-u-d. H: And your birth date? I: May 15th of 1997. H: Um, and then I guess, um, my first question is just general. ...
Show more H: So to start off, um, could you say and spell your full name? I: My full name is Ikram Mohamud. Um, Ikram is my first name, so that's i-k-r-a-m. And then Mohamud: m-o-h-a-m-u-d. H: And your birth date? I: May 15th of 1997. H: Um, and then I guess, um, my first question is just general. Tell me about your family. What--what are they like? I: Okay, I'll be frank, I guess in general context... I'm not sure if it will count for later, but, um, so it’s--my family consists of my mother and father and my sister, so my immediate, um, family, and I mean, they’re… you know, I mean, they have cultural things and like, we came to America in like 2003, July-ish, at some point. So you know they’ve been here for, like, 17 years, but they’re still obviously, like, determined to stick with, like, um, their Somali roots, and then my sister and I are like relatively Americanized, so that can be hard to navigate in certain circumstances, where, like, for the most part, they’re kind of like any other set of parents, you know, there are disagreements, things you agree with, and then, my sister and I are very--like, my sister and I are very similar so it’s always interesting to navigate things, and whether you, like, go to mom or go to dad. But yeah, my family's, like, we're all pretty close and just have seen, like, the struggle that they've had to endure kind of to get us to keep us here and to keep us here. So, I feel like, certain things like that, you know, bonds you and like, makes you a stronger family. H: Um, what made you want to you go into school for business? And you know, like, what do you want to do with your life? I: That’s a hard question. Um, but for like, context, my dad used to own, like, his own business. And like, he's always kind of been like an entrepreneur and like, always wanted to, like, be his own boss and do his own thing. And like, watching that, and like, even just, like, growing up, like, the notion of budgets and, like, certain things have always been interesting, and kind of what makes the world go round and, like, coming to Hamline, like, it was really easy for me to be like, yeah, I'm gonna be a business major. And at that point, I wasn't sure which aspect of business I necessarily wanted. But I also like took on, um, like, leadership roles on campus and I have in high school, and like, being able to, like make people and help people and do certain things, and like, the notion of like teamwork and collaboration, really help me be, like, I can see myself doing this long term. But as of right now, like, career-path-wise, I will be meeting, like, youth in different programs that I'm working with, but like, not necessarily in like a business standpoint of, like, for profit of, like, how you know what, I mean? Of, like, how can we hit the profit margin on this? But I think it applies more in the context of like, I understand how to navigate--I understand how to navigate, like, those certain, certain circumstances and I feel like those transferable skills can kind of be applied to any capacity too. H: What was the business that your father ran? I: Oh, sorry, yes, context helps. Um, he owned his, um, own automotive shop with a friend of his. So just like fixing cars, and just like, helping people to do something. Like, like I said, the notion of like being his own boss and getting to do his own thing was, like, a huge thing for him, but then obviously, like, he had to do that behind a computer, so like... H: Um, what has your experience been in business school? I: Business school? Um, a lot of, like, what we learned, just so like academically, it's very, like, very well rounded. So like, you take finance classes, you take econ classes, you take business analytics, so you take a lot of different foundations of management, just certain things; marketing to show you kind of like the atmosphere of business and what it means. And then obviously, as you dive deeper, you get to take more of the concentrated classes in what you have. But like, it's been kind of hard because if you really, I guess, a lot of people go into business, and like, White men, and like obviously, I’m not saying from here that there's like something wrong with White men, but like it’s really hard to navigate, like, certain spaces when women do have, like, different identity markers and different experiences and you have so many different things, like, that are a part of you that necessarily aren’t a part of other people. So at certain times when we talk about a fix in certain cases, and certain things come up, and it can be really hard to navigate those things. And for a while I wasn't even sure if I wanted to be a business major because having classes with people like that didn’t make me feel like I belonged, or like I mattered, in that specific context. But sometimes you just kind of like, you know, toughen it out, realize that like, what's happening, like, content-wise, and that like, it’ll kind of be worth it in the long run? Of like, something that you've already gone so deep into and that you seem to enjoy, but like, the environment hasn't necessarily always been great. H: Yeah, that was actually one of my questions, was how do you see your intersecting identities, like, affect your academic life, professional life, personal life? I: Do you want me to explain that now then? H: Sure. I: Okay, perfect. Um, I think, so when it comes to just very, like, academically, and like, it’s definitely something I’ve seen, just being within one of my identities that other POCs talk about, like how Minnesota business has a lot of White people, and how a lot of times there’s cultural insensi--like, insensitivities and how there’s, like, microaggressions and other things that happen in those spaces, and how those are really, obviously, hard to navigate. And like, like, I have a class right now where I’m the only POC and that hasn’t happened a lot, there’s usually two or three of us, so like, sometimes, like, a topic will come up and like, you can literally see seeing people looking at you, and like, being like, oh, there’s the one brown person, like, will they answer, like “I’m just going to pretend,” but like, I think the more, like, intersectionalities that exist, and the circumstance, also the harder it can be, ‘cause even sometimes, like, I’ve had POCs in classes and we’ve talked about, like, “America” and outsourcing and like, how a lot of my classmates have seen outsources, and like, that’s okay, but like as an immigrant and, you know what I mean? Being on the other side and seeing how like, certain things affect, like, that identity sometimes come up, like being Black and like people saying, like, microaggressive things, also comes up, like being Muslim, and talking about terrorism, like there's so many, like, different aspects and even with a lot of business majors, like I said, are men, sometimes, like even though there’s quite a few leadership women, sometimes, like, people say things, like make comments about, like, “oh, women aren’t in leadership roles because women want to have children” and then you being like, am I going to constantly have to be, you know, the one to shut these things down? And sometimes it can, like, get hard ‘cause it's like, am I here in the classroom for like, to try and just correct people? Or am I here to learn? And obviously a lot of the time we’re there to learn, but sometimes it can be really hard to navigate. Um, was one them personally? I think personally, I’ve honestly been blessed to find people that are like, even though we’re not going to have the same identities, that are very understanding, and like, care about what, like, my views are, and like, even when it’s Ramadan, and it’s like time to fast and stuff, you know what I mean? And like they’re more considerate. So I think personally, like, it doesn't obviously work out for everyone, you know, I have the privilege that I found friends and like, people, and like professors and connections that I’ve made at Hamline, that I’ve been able to easily navigate and not necessarily always be thinking, like, “which identity of mine to I have to put at my forefront today?” but that like, you can just have, like, a human connection with someone. I think career-path-wise, and like, this is something that like, I never used to think about, but like, as we talk about, like, as I apply to jobs and like do stuff I wonder like, well, will there be racial profiling? Like, will I not be picked for something just because I'm Muslim, or like, how will, even when I start a job, like, how will I be perceived by my co-workers because it's just like, I’ve found that comfort in those connections at Hamline, that like, I don’t go into spaces anymore thinking, like, how I’m going to be perceived, I’m like, “I know this student to a certain extent,” so like, I think that will be hard to navigate, like, the beginnings of like, figuring out, like, where you're wanted, and where you're not wanted, and like, just have to prove yourself more than them, like, the other people have to prove themself, so I think a lot of time it depends on the environment and the circumstance, but like, at some point you kind of become good at just navigating them, sadly, and like, code switching, and just being like, okay, so this part of my identity is obviously not wanted here, how can I, like, put that in a box for now and do what I need to do to get through this class so that I can, like, further my degree. H: Are you or your family very involved in the Somali community here? I: Um, my parents are, like, very, very, especially my father. He’s a huge component of like, well they both are, of like, culture and staying connected, and like, he has a lot of friends, and like, he goes to the Somali stores, and gets his hair cut by Somali people, and like, eats Somali food, and like, he’s very set in like, a lot of, like, very, very, like, nitty-gritty cultural aspects, which I think are great, and also a way, like, even generation, I think about it sometimes, like, my sister and I didn’t obviously use as much as they did as kids, you know? We grew up here. So like, this is where we’ve kind of found comfort, in like, the American culture. But to them that’s a way of, like, staying connected and being able to be, like, I might not necessarily have the space to live there right now, but can I have that space in the environment that I’m currently in all day. And then for me, I think it kind of depends. I honestly just trying to support a lot of POC, seeing if I can, like, to like buy something at, like, a local brewery, even if it’s not, not just POCs, but like, more local owned businesses, um, but like, there’s also, um, Karmel, um, it’s the Somali stores, but like, I get my clothes there, I get food there, so like, there’s different ways to connect to it, but I think a lot of times I’ll just connect from, like, my parents directly and the things that they’ve taught me, that like, I integrate a lot of those into the life I live. And I don’t really necessarily have a lot of Somali friends, so it’s like, more of like, what I--you know what I mean, how I view it and what I do to apply it, so it’s very insightful. H: So was there a choice by your parents to move here because of the Somali community or did they just kind of end up here? I: So they actually placed us in Florida H: Okay I: um, and then we were there for twenty-one days, very, like, specific, um, and one of my aunts actually lives in--lived in--Faribault, Minnesota, which is actually where my parents wanted to be, and for them it was more of like, not necessarily a sense of community, but a sense of family. So when we came here in 2003, so like, Somali people kind of started immigrating mainly in 2007 and 2008, is like when a lot of people started coming and obviously it’s continuing to increase, so at that point there wasn’t necessarily, like, there was kind of a community but it wasn’t as big as it is now, but for them it was more of, like, how can we be closer, like, you know, we had other family in Rochester, and then obviously after us there was some in Minneapolis, and it was just more of, like, the sense of family, but then my parents also had the ability to have that sense of community as more and more Somali people started moving in. H: Um, you’ve already talked about this some, but I was wondering about types of discrimination and prejudice you’ve faced within White Minnesota, and if you’ve faced any within the Somali community, just, for, I don’t know, being a woman or being American, or what. I: Um, so, I don’t, I don’t know how much you know about like, south of Minnesota, but, it’s not great, um, to say the least. But growing up in Faribault, like, was very, there wasn’t even that many Black people so I was very aware that I was a different color, like growing up, was very aware of like Islam, and like, and very aware of like, being an immigrant, so like even if there was like, even Black people were certain people who at least grew up here, they had that, like, American culture that they could at least connect to their peers with but like I didn’t have that growing up, like, my mom would send me with, like, Somali pasta and the kids would be, like, having hamburgers and like, a lot of the time, like people would ask you “what is that?” and, you know what I mean? Kids teasing kids, but obviously there’s always the underlying things and like, like wearing a hijab, and like, I have kids pull off my hijab and like, things that I obviously know aren’t okay but at that point, like as a kid, I wasn’t necessarily, like, heavily bothered by it, cause I was like, “you bully me, I’m gonna bully you!” That doesn’t necessarily sound great, but it was more of, lik,e how I dealt, but like, I think I really started to notice it once like I entered middle school, and, like, that was when all the Somali people started coming to Faribault as well, and at that point, like, stuff started becoming really segregated, like even though I had gone to elementary school and grown up with these kids, like, they started making comments about Islam and about Somali people and like, they would literally call us “Smellians” because “Somali people smell bad,” and like, just making comments about like our culture and things, and like, there was always fights breaking out, and like, Somali people would have to stand over here and like, the Whites could stand over there, and the Hispanics over here, and like, things that like I didn’t really think about, like much until I honestly got to college and then I was like, yeah, this is, like, a huge problem, and like even within communities, like Somali people will stand together here, and like, a lot of the time, even in high school, like, people I, like, used to run around with in like second-grade were, like, calling me the n-word and like, certain things I realize now, like, these things stem from, like, how you’re raised, you know what I mean, and like all your like environment and what happens and like, I don’t know but like, I literally visited, like, two months ago, being in Hamline-- I’m not gonna say Hamline’s perfect, but like, or the cities are perfect, but like, people are really passive aggressive, you know, and there’s microaggressions and, like, no one will usually outrightly say something bad to me, but like, I would literally, like, um, picking up, like, um, candy bars and milk or something for the house, and like, some guy called me the n-word and started attacking me out of nowhere, and like I haven’t had that happen in a while and now, it was like, holy shit, what is happening, I was like, like entirely shook, cause like it hasn’t happened in so many years that I was like, I don’t even, like, know how to react to that at first, like I kinda shut down, and then he did it again, and obviously at that point I’m, like, aggressive, so, I got a little aggressive but like, it’s really weird to see how, like, White America in the context of, like, the south, are very open with a lot of the markings, like even when Trump was running with a lot of Trump flags in the area when I visit home, and like how, when you come to a more diverse, like, concentrations, like Minneapolis and St. Paul and stuff, how people will not be as outright about their views, and are willing to hide them because they, like, realize they’re not necessarily in the majority. So I think I’ve just gotten used to it, you kind of get immune to the reality of like, racism or some awful other combination of things and, like, when people say stuff to you, like, it doesn’t hurt as much, ‘cause you grew up with it. But I think, like, the older I get the more I’m like realizing that like, these things are not okay, and I have to, like, stand up for myself, and like stand up for others too. I don’t know if that answered your question. H: Um, just, the other part I had, was if there was any sort of discriminations within the Somali community. I: Oh yes. Um… yes. And I think, I think it’s a weird in-between, because like, I, like I said I grew up with like, my White peers, like with them, you know, I was friends with them, when there was different concentrations of like Somali people, like, I was pretty much like told I was White, like I don’t even like let people know that like, there was like this specific group of girls who used to, like, pick on me all the time, they would make comments about me when I was in the bathroom, and like, in Somali, assuming I didn’t speak Somali, and they’re like, “oh, look at how she’s acting, she’s too American, acting like she’s better than us,” and I never, like, said anything to them until like they started making comments about my family, and then, at that point I let them in, but I think, I think when, like, groups segregate themselves, like, you have to pick a side, and like no matter what side you pick, like, unless you pick quote-on-quote “the right side,” which is, like the one that you fit into, even if you, like, show that you’re White or like, you’re an oreo, or like, you know what I mean? Like, you have an American culture in you, like, they’re gonna discriminate against you, and be like “you’re not one of us,” like, just because you grew up here. And like, obviously, if you try to go to White people, like, they couldn’t accept you because you’re different or you’re special, like, you’re not just like they are, but at the end of the day, like, you are them either, so I think, like, there’s definitely like, little kids being like, “oh, you’re not Somali,” and “oh you’re not this enough and you’re not that enough,” and I think that affected a lot of like, at least growing up, my identity struggle of like, who am I and what am I, ‘cause it’s obvious these people don’t want me, but it’s also obvious that I don’t belong here, and kinda straddle my like Somali identity with my American identity, because like, you have both happening at the same time and there isn’t necessarily a perfect way to fit them in together. H: What made you, like, kind of come to accept who you are? Like, you are very confident now, so…? I: I think, like honestly this is gonna sound weird, but I just, like, woke up one day, and I was like, forget all of ‘em! Like, at the end of the day, like, there isn’t a perfect space to exist in, if that makes sense, like you have to be yourself and like, I realize that, and I’m not saying flaunt all of your identities, like, I’m not gonna like, try and push down onto people and be like, one day you’ll just love it, but like I think I was just like, this is my Somali identity, like this is my culture, this is my religion, and like, these are true aspects of myself, that I’ve grown up in, that I’ve loved and cared about, and like they matter enough to me not to, like, drop them or change myself, so at some point I was like, I don’t need to be like, quote-onquote “Somali enough,” like I’m gonna have my American aspects to myself. And at some point, like, I literally just was like, okay, like you’re literally outright racist, I don’t want to be your friend anymore. I’m like, you act like you care about the Somali community but you’re only going to, like, accept who fits into what bubble, so like, I think very similarly to college I just literally make friends within the context of school and was like, you get me for who I am, and like, obviously my culture matters and we can, like, talk about the beauties of what you have to offer and I have to offer but like, I am who I am and I’m not gonna necessarily change, but I think there’s also the aspect where, when you grow up around a group of people that are not yours, you wish you would change. You know, like, you wish you were part of them so you have to navigate things or explain why you have to pray at this time and like why you have to do this or why your mom sent you to--like, lunch with this particular meal. And I think, like, at some point like, I just realized I was me, no matter how hard you try to fit in you’re never gonna fit in and you’re never gonna be them no matter how many hamburgers you eat, or like, how many times you tell your mother you don’t wanna wear this particular outfit. So I think at some point I just like realized who was genuinely my friend and cared about me for who I am, and not because I fit a perfect bubble, or that, like, I was just the right amount of Somali enough to be a part of people, but I think like, occasionally I think about them, like there’s always obviously like an in- between struggle but I think like, I don’t know like I said, just in high school at some point I was just like, I am who I am, and like, I’m not gonna necessarily change that for someone by starting just, like taking toxic people and toxic things out of my life and finding the people as in like, who I am is worthy enough of the space I take up and that I shouldn’t have to explain who I am to other people. H: Um, do you personally know any Somali female entrepreneurs or business owners, or…? I: I know women who have, like, leadership roles, if that makes sense.... H: Yeah! I: ...who are like managers and like, do things at certain spaces, but like, a lot of Somali people work in like the medical field, you know, how there’s like certain, like, sets of things that, like, people kind of like, jump into, but I think, for when it comes to business, it’s not, like, necessarily as much because, like, women are supposed to be nurturing, you know what I mean? Even within, like, gender norms, and even within just Islam in America and other things, like, so like, a lot of times if you notice, a lot of women go into, like, like, um, child care, like, um, the medical field, just like certain, like, not necessarily softer fields, but like fields that are more nurturing and caring for people, but like I've never met, like, a C.E.O Somali woman, or like, when I’ve gone to like different, like, business conferences and things for like, um, just… just because of, like, Islam, and being a part of, like, the Muslim Student Association in the school, and also just being a business major as well, and I’ve seen a couple, like, navigating that, but, it’s, I don’t know, I feel like every time a woman is in a powerful space, especially, like, a POC/Muslim, that she’s not as easily able to navigate that, because of, obviously, all of the sexism, misogyny, all of the, like, Islamophobia, and other combinations of things, but like, personally, all of the like, women, like, all of the women I know, are literally in the medical field, or work in schools, or work in some capacity of both, but I don’t, yeah, I don’t personally know, like, any specific, like, women, I just have seen a couple in different, like, roles, H: Do you think… I mean, you see yourself in a leadership role, do you know how you'll adapt to that if there aren't really any role models, I guess, out there? I: I think, ultimately, um, I think at some point, like, it’s, it’s kind of sad, like, I gave up on the notion of role models, and was like, I'm just going to do what I'm going to do. But I think, like, generally, I’ve seen people like Ilhan Omar, and like, other, like, Somali women making it and doing things, and like, even, like, I forget her name, it’s like, Kelima or something, like, even the one that [...] has been really helpful to, like, when Somali women be like, okay, I think this is what I want to do, but I think it’s the notion of like, letting literally Somali women know that, like, you don’t all have to go into the medical field, and I was like, I’m never doing that with my life, but I think ultimately, I’ve just found my passion and care and things, and I've had the privilege of having parents that, like, pushed me to do what I want to do, like, you know? That let me go and allowed me to pursue things, but I also think just that having, like, at least not career-wise, but like, within, like, my mother and like, of my father, and like, you don’t need to man, you know? You know, like, are your own woman, and you, like, can navigate whatever space and do whatever you want, has always been, like, a big part, but like, like you said, not, I think not having role models, or having, like, people to look up to and, like, career guidance, can sometimes be hard because when you get discouraged, there isn’t necessarily someone to like, mentor you that has had similar experiences, but I feel like, as generations go on, like, maybe myself and other people can be those, you know, role models for younger generations doing things that are, like, we’re pushing to do, but I think, like, the Somali community/Somali women especially within the capacity of business, like, I think this, these generations like my generation and onward are the ones kinda like breaking into that, you know? And like, paving a path and making, I don’t know, like leaving a mark for other Somali women to follow, but I think currently there isn’t really enough women for me to be like, “yeah, I think she’s a great role model,” like I’ve had the ability to like, see her and think that I could be that too, but I also think that going to youth and working in government, work in nonprofits, I am choosing the softer side of business, and not something obviously I had a mission that I’m meant to do, but like I feel like in terms of a Somali CEO woman you know, making big and doing things, there won’t necessarily be like that kind of, like, straight pathway for me. H: So the question in my head has disappeared, but I’ll just do the other one I had. Um, do you have any idea if, or could you imagine how your experiences might be different if you weren’t in the Twin Cities where there is a fairly high Somali population? I: I think, and this is actually some conversation I’ve had with my parents, cause my parents were like you have to go to school and kinda move back home which is obviously something I don’t wanna do, but I feel like I don’t… I think my experiences wouldn’t be as positive. I think here, even, like not even just like Somali people, but it’s like, there’s so many different, you know what I mean, different diverse groups like, different types of Muslims, and like, by types I mean ethnically, I was like, that sounded weird! I think that like, here there’s like a lot, a large concentration of just people going to college, like, picking career paths and like, doing things and making it for themselves, and like even seeing Somali women that have graduated before me and like my cousins and other people who do have jobs in the Twin Cities, and like, are going to grad school and doing other things, has, has generally helped me realize that like, there’s other people trying to do the same thing that I’m doing, and like I’m not necessarily alone. And I think that’s kinda like a comfort of being like, there’s other people who are also trying to do things and you don’t have to like quote on quote “be the token” and like, there’s others wanting to do similar things. But I feel like if, I don’t know, say there was like a college that I really liked that wasn’t here, like, home, I would probably have found a job there, and like still felt like an outsider in that capacity. And I feel like that wouldn’t help me push myself to like try more and do more and be more. ‘Cause sometimes it’s just, honestly, easier just being the outsider than, than being the token, but I think it kind of, I think I’m more like privileged in these spaces where you see so many Somali people all like, and a lot of them having their own stores and being entrepreneurs and like, you know my aunt has her own store, in like um, the Somali mall and sometimes I’m just visiting her and seeing her like work hard and do things for herself-- I guess she’s a businesswomen role model! H: There we go! Ikram: Okay! I was like, wait a minute, there we are… um, but like she owns her own business and like visits other places and like finds new fashion and like clothes and like, just literally does her own things like she doesn’t even like employ any other people like she’s like, “this is my little store, and I’m gonna make it exactly how I want when I want,” like opens when wants, closes when she wants, and like calls the shots and like, I’ve seen her like navigate conversations and do things that like, a woman that doesn’t necessarily speak like, you know what I mean, speak the language of the, like, the language that’s mainly spoken in this country, but still find ways to navigate those like spaces and be able to like handle herself and speak up for herself even though she doesn’t necessarily have identities that allow her to seem like she knows what she’s doing, I think has been really helpful, and like seeing other people, like starting to do it and make things I think… I think to answer your question, I’m just going on a whole tangent, I think if I didn’t, wasn’t in the Twin Cities and was a maybe more White populated spot or place that didn’t have as many Somali people, I would feel that like connection, or like, that like, not really a connection but just knowing that other people are doing the same thing as me and that like, there’s other people in this community that are just trying to make it and do their own thing, I think it’s a satisfying thing to watch and be a part of. H: Um, do you think that there’s a level of disconnect with each next, like, coming generation, between Somalia and like, second, third-generation immigrants? I: Definitely. Um, I think it plays like a, even like I said within my sister and I, and like navigating conversations and stuff with our parents, I think like the like, gener--like, the generation of immigrants, like the parents that generally came here, and the grandparents, are very set in the like, hopes that they can like, one day go back to their country and like, be able to like, set roots there and do things, so they’re very high on like, eating the right way, you know, and dressing the right way, doing everything that, like, promotes their culture, and I think the rest of us are like, well, Kendrick Lamar is popular, and like, no one wants to be listening to like, the Somali songs are poppin’, but like, it’s like I’d rather listen to like, rap and to this and eat that food and try this and like, especially when we are in spaces that have so many different cultural options of, like, foods and things to do, I think it’s really hard for youth to be like, yeah, I’m gonna go with the not-so-mainstream-popular thing, I think like, just honestly, the frame of capitalism and what it is is like, she has an iPhone, I also want an iPhone because everyone has an iPhone, kind of a thing. So I think generationally, like materialism and capitalism play a really big role in the things that like, youth cares about and wants to participate in and like, even as simply as like dressing stuff like, I’m literally, like this is the only like, you know what I mean, like my hijab is the only cultural thing I’m wearing, like otherwise, I’m wearing stuff from like Old Navy, and like JC Penny, and like, instead where I know like if I go to the store I could find, you know what I mean, I could find like Somali cultural appropriate stuff, I would rather dress in, like, the things that are like, modern in the country I exist in. So I think when it comes to like certain cultural aspects, like, I think the younger and younger generations are more disconnected from the reality of their particular culture because it’s not something we’ve had, like, the opportunity to grow up in, necessarily, or be surrounded by. And obviously, in any particular space, like, you are the environment you grow up in, and so I think like as, like, the generations get younger there seems to even be, like, less people that speak Somali, and like, like it’s just very, like, assimilated into like mainstream of like acting and participating in what American culture has to offer. So I definitely think there is, like, a disconnect from like older generations than younger, and even when it comes to, like, religious aspects too and like other things that play into tradition, I’ve definitely seen people, like, butt heads or like, kids not understand where their parents are coming from and it’s obvious it’s just a very protected state, and it’s obvious the parents don’t understand where the kids are coming from ‘cause they’re very set in their ways and don’t necessarily understand the American traditions of like, what it means to be a kid or what adulthood is because like Somali culture’s very like, you’re my kid, period, you know? And America’s like, the moment you turn 18 you’re free, and like kind of like, even youth my age, and including myself, having to navigate those conversations, like I’m not a child! But like, culturally, I am to you, you know? So I definitely think there is a disconnect between the different generations. H: And then I guess, is there just anything else you want to share about your identity, or what you have seen about Somali community, leadership, business, anything? I: I think just, generically, and I feel this is more going back to the like generational thing, I know that there is a lot of this, like, Islamophobia and like, especially with like Trump, and like a lot of other, like, identities that are like, obviously marginalized but like, more marked based off of the current administration and I know a lot of people, even for just personal safety, who used to not, like, wear the hijab or do traditional things, ‘cause they don’t wanna be marked or identified or attacked for who they’re being, and I think we are in a space that doesn’t necessarily encourage or promote people to be who they truly are, makes it really hard to be outright, and you know I mean open and, like, happy, to do the things you have to ‘cause sometimes it’s more about survival for certain people than it is for necessarily thriving in those particular things. And then I think another thing that plays, and that’s not obviously all Somali people, but for, I think, Somali women being business owners and other things, like, a lot of times there’s a lot of sexism and misogyny and other things that I think play a huge role within the Somali culture and like, not, and I think this plays a role in any culture honestly, but like, not a lot of women are necessarily encouraged to, like, get a higher degree or, like, do things or, like, I’ve definitely heard people be like, “you don’t need a college degree,” like, “you’re gonna obviously get married and have kids” and it’s like, under the assumption that, like, a woman literally has to fit in to those particular gender roles, I think play a really big role in, like, why maybe that there isn’t a lot of Somali women in, like, business roles for other, like, Somali youth to follow and then I think it also, even though now we’re in college, I think it plays a role into like, even just in America, how we have a lot of teachers, and like, how certain roles have a lot of women because, like, women are asked, or have always been in those softer roles, and I think that plays also a big thing in like, what a woman is allowed to do or not allowed to do as well. I think that’s the only thing I have. H: Thank you. I: Perfect.
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