Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about i... Show more
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about it?
Sabrin Gadow 0:24
Yeah for example were you born in America?
Ash Farah 0:30
Oh no, I'm so I was born in Gadow, which is between the Borderlands of Somalia, Kenya and
Ethiopia. I was born in a village there with my mom. And we came to America actually through
--- I forget what exact humanitarian organization it was, but it was through them and we got to
re-located over to the United States.
Sabrin Gadow 0:52
That’s nice!
Okay, so what was your family like?
Ash Farah 1:00
Well, I'm the oldest I'm like, I'm the oldest son.
I also I come from a relatively small family for a Somali family. My siblings are Rahma, Ayub,
and Mohammed and I'm the oldest of them. I also have a stepbrother and stepsister, but they
were much older than I was so.
Sabrin Gadow 1:20
So what was your neighborhood growing up like?
Ash Farah 1:28
It was very Somalia. I grew up around a lot of somali people and my just you know, generally
very low income, we grew up on section eight and you know, like, there was no Eid gifts. The
Eid gifts were that you got to eat that day. You know that type of teas. Like it's pretty, pretty
simple.
Sabrin Gadow 1:40
Yeah. How's it like growing up in a Somali neighborhood, was it Muslim majority?
Ash Farah 1:47
Yeah, it was definitely Muslim majority, like Somalis are like 99.9% Sunni Muslim so yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 1:55
Yeah did you like that? Was it the sense of community? Did it make you feel safer? Was it just
was a nice for your mom?
Ash Farah 2:00
Yeah, it was very nice for my mom because she was a single mom. My dad left two years after
we like relocated. So it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other Somali women. And
it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other members of the community and from our tribe
and stuff like that, because they helped with like, childcare, getting a job, all the things that
make it really hard to relocate to a foreign country with children. You know, like, it's very hard.
So she didn't feel alone. She obviously grew up very Muslim and found solace in the masjid
and, you know, we went Dugsi [Islamic school] every like, I think, every Wednesday, Saturday,
Sunday, and on Friday and Sunday. Yeah, if my mom could afford it, she would send us even
more. But she's like, you know, and that kind of thing. She just really really loved Islam. And it
was very clear because everybody around me loved Islam.
Unknown Speaker 3:00
Yeah, you said growing up in Islam. How did growing up in Minnesota a sort of shape you? Do
feel like you've been on different path and if you grew up in this area that was so highly
concentrated in Somalis as well as Muslims?
Ash Farah 3:12
It's because of the like, certain. Like, I've met a lot of like, Somali queers across the world, UK,
London. I'm just friends, even Toronto, like just all these places that all these people, you know,
ran off to, and I think Minneapolis causes a certain socio political background that allows for it to
be very different than if I grew up in let's say, Denmark and was Muslim, there's less of a social
pressure to be more like ultra conservative in your interpretation of Islam. Like there are people
who have no problems with like, people not wearing Hijabs. You know like not wearing
traditional garments and stuff like that, at all. Umm just because of the you know, of the mixing
of culture there? Also because there's different Muslims, and it isn't just like the majority of
Muslim population there isn't Somali only. It's like there's Arabs, there’s people from Palestine. It
was, more you know, black Muslims, there’s you know converts and stuff like that. There was
like more diversity so that causes a little more lax opinions when it comes to like groupthink in
the community and stuff like that. So there's less, I don’t want to say less prejudice because
prejudice exists consistently throughout whatever society you go to but less rigidity I’d say.
Sabrin Gadow 4:38
You said the term ran off to what do you mean by that? Either term run off as in, like, places
they went off to?
Ash Farah 4:44
Oh yeah … Yeah! Like, um, you know, where people have ran off to. Like, you know,
displacement from the Civil War, so it makes sense for most people to have fled to the nearest
place that they could flee too. For example there’s Somali Queers that are living in Yemen or
Kenya, or Denmark and UK or Toronto and here. All very different in their experiences because
of the different environments that they are growing up in.
Sabrin Gadow 5:07
So you use a term Groupthink when referring to this close knit community of relations to find
that sense of this my community and stuff like that. How do you feel group think affects people
who aren't like, how do I phrase this in a nice way, people who aren’t like the typical idea of
what Somali Muslim should be?
Ash Farah 5:30
Mmmh, To put it lightly, I've learned a lot of things in my life, which is, if you go against the
majority opinion on faith based issues, people respond very emotionally very, like personally
and personally attacked because this is something that is very, very, close to their heart and
they think this is right. Particularly it was harmful for me growing up because of being a child
and stuff like that. So people see you as saveable, as fixable, and they don't want you to go
through what they see it as the worst punishment on earth for all of eternity. So they want to
help the this kid out by any means necessary and sometimes those means are violent.
Sometimes they're ostracizing. Sometimes they're, you know, like conversion therapy. So by
any means necessary to help another like member of your community out. And I am at the age
where now I know that it comes from this place -- it comes from like a kind of a good hearted
place despite the impact that had on me growing up. And it makes sense for people especially
here in Minneapolis, especially in the somali population, and the older Somali population here in
Minneapolis to cling on to their faith even more so than they would back home because they
literally had to give up so much of themselves and Minneapolis is vastly different than where
they're growing up. I like had this conversation with my mom and she was explaining how much
she missed she missed sugar canes and how much she missed like the masjid that she would
go to and like just the how vastly different growing up in Somalia versus living here in this
tundra! with no sun, like, just off. Even the food's off! All this, so it's very understandable, they
would cling on to their faith even harder, like even more strict because that’s one of the only
things they got to keep. Not their houses and no they're --- like my mom witnessed, you know
soldiers break down Hawo Tako [Statue] not even their culture when it came down to it. You
know, so they have this one very, very, tangible thing that they can hold on to and to see their
kids either rejecting from that path or from their particular interpretations very, very, very harmful
to them. And it makes sense. It does. But it doesn't make it right, but yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 7:50
Yeah. Such a nice way to think of it.
Ash Farah 8:00
For example, my mom had this first incident like the moment we got here, like of course, we
landed in New York. We're on this escalator and she was holding me and a man decided to
yank her hijab. And this is, like yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 8:10
So sorry!
Ash Farah 8:12
And it was, you know, it was post 9/11. My mom was wearing a huge Jilbab, which is, you know,
like, you know, she's 6’1’. So she sticks out of the crowd and stuff. Like that this guy got a rise
out of it. He was drinking too much at the airport. And I fell, tumbled on all these steps on this
escalator and my mom, a) has never seen an escalator. And that was her first like, initiation into
American culture, which is very violent and very against your faith. So what people do when
there's an opposition and an oppression, is they cling on to it even more. And over time, I got to
see my very, very liberal mother become more and more of a literalist, when it came to the
Koran, and when it came to faith and stuff like that, because of just the concentration of the way
American bigotry is against Muslims in particular. Where else you might not see that as much.
Like you do see some islamophobia but it does not come off as directly violent as American
Islamophobia is.
Sabrin Gadow 9:14
American Islamophobia is truly something different. You mentioned something about growing up
with a liberal mother and her changing into more of a literalist, because of the community she
was apart of and the community that she held ties to. How did that feel growing up and going
into somali spaces and having different ideals and values based on you?
Ash Farah 9:33
Oh, it was very, very difficult.
I was a young child, ahhh, weird child. I did not speak till the age of eight. I just had all these like
external issues going on in my life that my mom had to deal with having a kid that had needs
that needed to be met like I needed a speech therapist and it was a mysterious came --- due to
an illness I had as a kid. Just had no answers and had to navigate the system by herself in this
country by herself. So, I watched her become this very laissez faire, like, mother of like, you can
play with Barbies, you can play with GI Joes. And you can, like watch. We used to watch john,
john wayne westerns, because she used to love those together and stuff like that and watch her
become very, very anti-westernization and more like faith based and like literalist Islam, stuff like
that. Like I want my children to be hafiz. I want them to go to Dugsi all the time because the
counter effect would be like they'd end up like the kids in my neighborhood, the black kids she
saw in the neighborhood who were dealing with socio economic issues that like lead them down
certain paths. So she really honned that in.
Ash Farah 10:56
Of course, it was very unlucky for me because I'm a trans man. So I was born female and
assigned female at birth. And I was trying to communicate that with no words to my mom. So it
wasn't very --- AND to my peers who obviously picked it up really quickly. It's kind of hard to like,
not pick up on that, especially since the more literalist interpretations of Islam have stricter like
gender roles and gender guidelines. So it quickly became very, very hard for me to focus on
Fiqh and like learning about Islam, and going to Dugsi and stuff like that when there was literally
a partition, deciding if I was like, what roles I would have to play and do all that. And it was very,
very, very difficult because I felt like there was something wrong with me. That my entire
community was trying to help me because I was flawed and broken and a burden onto my mom.
Ash Farah 12:00
My mom would get a lot of help and support because people would see, you know, her like,
weird kid and stuff like that. So it was a mutual. Like I saw the benefit of that, but also meant
that through egging on of various community members, my mom, so shovel me into Quran
Saar, which is like people reading Quran over, you know, children usually have, you know,
illnesses or like something wrong with them or just or being seen as possessed. So I dealt with
that. And it got increasingly worse, because my mom started to notice she had more of a
community around her. And that’s what she really needed as a single mom who literally just
could not afford much, and it led me down to having a really, really harsh ‘bout with Islam.
Sabrin Gadow 12:58
You talked a little bit about you being a transman, do identify with any other communities?
Ash Farah 13:02
I---- this is a par, or a question that I get a lot. I really do identify as being Somali. Identify with
the muslim identity. I identify as trans identify, I identify as LGBT, and I don't see how, I know a
lot of people see that as like in, incomprehensibly, untetherable like you cannot tether those
identities together, they cannot exist in a human being. I even get it from somali people like you
are either Muslim or your gay, or you can't be trans and Muslim. You know, like Somalis don't
have gay people or something like that. That's white people shit, and all that kind of stuff. But I
really truly hold, hold all those things. So.
Sabrin Gadow 13:57
So beautiful. You hear a lot about Somali hate being gay. But we definitely do hear something
about Somalis queers, who don’t have faith and Somali Queers who do have faith.
Who talk about feeling like they couldn't be somali and clear and also have Muslim as well. Do
you feel like you fit into that? In the sense that -- I’ll rephrase the question, how does it feel to be
ostracized in multiple communities and do you feel that you had to build a community from that?
As in a sense where it's like being a Somali Queer openly, like a visibly queer person, trans
person, and also living with that as well. But how do you feel because your ostracized in those
that small intersections.
Ash Farah 14:42
Right? Like I felt since I couldn't find family and I couldn't find ummah basically, I couldn't find
community in Islam, because of you know, various interpretations of the faith deciding that I
could not --- that my existence was non congruent with their form of Islam.
I decided to not listen to any of that.
Sabrin Gadow 15:05
How does it feel to be consistently told that your existence is untrue? Nah, like that its like an
idea that's a made up and came from forced westernization. And how did you find community
within that?
Ash Farah 15:17
I forced it. I figured out a young age since couldn’t find ummah within Islam. And I couldn't find
solidarity in my blackness. Because I, you know, as a kid, I like really was trying to find a space
where I wasn't seen as “other” entirely, um, I would try out like black identity and stuff like that,
but it's very hard because African Americans and African people have this long going, you
know, issue between the two. And it's just due to coming from different experiences of
Pan-African identity. I did a civil rights research tour, in order to like, better known about, you
know, the struggle of black African Americans and stuff like and found that I was within that, but
also separate and had to unpack that. I also had to unpack that in LGBT spaces that I went to
Minneapolis, were very white centric, very had various ideas of what it meant to be Muslim. And
I encountered a lot of Islamophobia. And a lot of racism too. So I felt great. So I'm too, I'm too
black, and too African and too Muslim, to be an LGBT spaces consistently, I'm to LGBT to be in
Islamic spaces, I'm too, you know, like, African and queer to be in black spaces. So I decided,
fuck it, I'm going to find and forge, and make community and make a chosen family and, like
make spaces for us to be, you know, for people like me to seek them out. Even though it's very
much, people say it's very much in your best interest to not claim all three of those identities
because even one of them. Islamophobia alone kills, homophobia alone kills, transphobia alone
kills, and anti blackness kills. But to claim all three and to be looking for other people like you, is
to literally, literally, paint a target on your head and say that's better. Maybe if I find two other
people like me, it'll be worth being consistently shot at.
Ash Farah 17:29
And I decided that at a very young age.
Sabrin Gadow. 17:36
Is this where your activism stems from?
Ash Farah 17:40
Ummm yeah actually. Yeah, like one thing of the things that I really liked about Islam, was it
that. I'm actually thankful for it because I love the story and Nabi [prophet] Mohammed.
Sabrin Gadow 17:51
Oh, could you explain the story?
Ash Farah 17:52
I'm as if we're not both. Okay. I don't know.
All right.
Ash Farah 18:00
He was the last prophet according to the Quran, and he grew up in Mecca during the time of
like, political strife. He was from the Quraish tribe even though he was an orphan, and he
literally been he started. He like was anti-idolatry. So this worship of idols and the trade of idols,
which was a lot of commerce to Mecca at the time, on against the various political and social
issues, like slavery, and the mistreatment of slaves and mistreatment of women and
mistreatment of orphans like himself and was very much a social, a social, like activist if you
really think about it, because I'm only an activist will be exiled out of a country for political
reasons. You know, asylum status alone. Literally went to Medina because his message was
just not sitting well with the people in power, because the message was of peace and it was of
like very very, very stark social change. And people were just not having it. And I found his story
to be really inspiring because even though people call him a madman, crazy like, called him a
liar, said he was possessed, all the things from like, for literally you know, for nothing more than
being honest and what he was known for being honest. And these are all traits that I, you know,
growing up really, really like held onto. And, you know, he spoke for a lot of broken people, and
even in war times had all these rules and I just really inspired to be like him.
Sabrin Gadow 20:00
You mentioned something about him being for the people, social activists and a comment you
said was that only an activist would do something like this, do you think because you were so
visibly queer, visibly trans that you and all that stuff that you kinda even chose this path and
more like directed to it and lead on it?
Ash Farah 20:16
Yeah.
Also, what I liked about him and his story was, he didn't have a say in being Nabi. He really
didn't have the say in being a prophet, an angel like just decided. Okay, you're going to read
today, even though he couldn't, um, and stuff like that. I just, he didn't have a say in the role he
was put in. I don't think I did really like I think I had to speak for a lot of people who are able to
speak for themselves. I met a lot of queers and somali queers that were silenced or were being
killed or were, you know, one way or the other forced back into the closet through finances
through just threats of absolute violence and All these, you know different things. So I decided
— I like when I learned to speak, I decided to actually speak for people who needed to be
spoken for. And I held that. And that's the type of activism I do.
Sabrin Gadow 21:20
Is that how you define activism?
Ash Farah 21:23
Now, I feel like activism is just an individual who's trying to create social change. And that's like
when people say, well, that's very vague. That's true, because there's different forms of
activism. What type of activism I like to focus on and do is called healing justice. And healing
justice is mainly focused on trying to heal and create spaces for people and communities who
don't have space for those who are being under attack or ostracized or things like that. And
don't have spaces where they can be themselves, access resources, heal them deal with their
mental like, find housing resources, very direct action type teas when you meet up with people.
And because there's — no one really gets it better than someone who's going through it.
Ash Farah 22:18
So that's the type I do. There's different types. There's, of course demonstrative which was the
type you see when you see people protesting. There's media, which is more based on
awareness and getting the word out. There's journalism, there's direct, direct line journalism,
which you can see people at Gaza, you know, partaking in. There’s, you know, charitable based
or like, income based or people who work in lobbying, which I have done work in. Like all these
different things.
Sabrin Gadow 22:35
Do you prefer doing like more active work and creating more healing spaces or just doing the
work to heal people with their own traumas up, of just being consistently being attacked or
harmed, rather than things like lobbying or more demonstrative work?
Ash Farah 23:00
Um, yeah, like I got to work with out front. And as they are an LGBT lobby group in Minnesota
against conversion therapy and trying to get a band. Luckily this year they got a ban after
literally, since I was 15 pushing this. I'm so very excited about that. I'm like, I saw the
administrative stuff like the overarching side of activism. I've also partaken in demonstrations
like how I've actually held rallies at the state capitol, I've interviewed politicians and talk to them.
Like I sat down with Ilhan for God knows how long trying to explain LGBT him some issues. And
I got to see that and I got to see lobbying firsthand. I worked in anti violence for a minute. I also
did a lot of you know, I was a kid. So I did a lot of LGBT activism through my school. I did a
documentary based on the experiences of a trans student going through local education system
Minneapolis. I also did over 200 teacher trainings to educate educators on how to better support
and aid trans and LGBT students. I like went to various schools, there were some very, very
against the message that I was trying to do and the say, which was simply just the best policies
is to be inclusive.
Um, there's also I also got to see, like gone to countless protests, for BLM, for Black Lives
Matter. I've gone to black immigrant collective and helping here. I've done direct service work
with Minneapolis Transgender Health Coalition, and they're shot clinic and trying to reduce harm
to trans and LGBT folks through medicine. So I got to see a lot of different types of activism and
truly and honestly, nothing would bring me more joy and more impact than directly meeting with
people in crisis and helping them get resources that they need. I'm talking with 13 year olds, 14
year olds, who are just kicked out of their house and need to be connected with various
resources. And you know, we'll have someone there to show them that hey, it does get better
even if it's consistently shitty.
Ash Farah 25:49
And like just having umm like having people call you for and reach out being like hey I’m Muslim
and queer. I don't know how my family is going to be like this. How do I go about getting
financial independence? Various like, helping like people online, trying to get resources for visas
and visa help an asylum status and get into the US from Kenya. I briefly worked on this project
with mossier which involved a chicken farm in Kenya where a lot of LGBT women, lesbian
women, with their children and of course because you know, like it's a product of the situation
they're in, like, get gainful employment, because gainful employment allows people to have a lot
more safety net and be less targeted. And obviously I'm supposed to go do that documentary
project over in Kenya but umm my immigration status at the time was not going to be left to test.
It is one thing to go help another thing to permanently stay.
But yes, it’s truth.
Sabrin Gadow 26:50
Umm yeah that’s definitely valid.
Ash Farah 26:55
But yeah, I don't know. I like I've seen a lot of it. I think nothing helps more than what I'm doing
now, which is directly connecting with muslim queers on a one to one basis and giving them
hope and resources.
Sabrin Gadow 27:11
That is definitely important work considering how it’s very not talked about.
Ash Farah 27:13
It’s not very glamorous, it's not like, and it's good that it's not talked about often times, like, I
think one of the most horrifying times in my life was, I was in this one documentary called out
north. A lot of people may have seen it. It's about LGBT history in Minnesota.
And I was helping the director, as a high schooler, like just, you know, like, interview folks,
cameras and all that. And I decided and he decided to throw me in and talk about the Somali
LGBT experience I had growing up. I talked about how Brian Cole the center was named after a
gay man, a gay man publicly against the Vietnam War. And things like that would affect like, anti
war myself. So it worked out
and I only learn this because I wanted to know how, because that was a center I grew up with,
like, it's right around, cedar and it's majority Muslim base and stuff like that. And I remember
being literally shoved behind the bleachers, for being nothing more than myself. And I found it
weird that that was the name associated with the building. And if he knew what was happening,
how he would feel, and I talked about that. And of course, I didn't know that TPT which was on
was free TV, and the entirety of my neighborhood saw it. And I got a flood of like, threats and
death threats and people being obviously righteously mad.
Sabrin Gadow 27:44
And what do you mean righteously mad?
Ash Farah 27:50
They're just mad because they were like, how dare this person speak on the unspeakable. This
is an unspeakable, shameful issue. You know, like, how can you? can't be both LGBT and
Muslim and you can also keep the community out your mouth and that kind of stuff because
we're still black and anti-snitching.
Sabrin Gadow 29:03
Say that period!
Ash Farah 29:16
God, um, and there's just. Umm it was at a time where the community was facing a lot more
police surveillance and CVE and a lot of friends working on it and, you know, countering CVE in
that process and it was just, I found it very, very, very difficult to hold all my intersections and
push for intersectionality in activism in all these different ways, because I was literally being
attacked for nothing more than, you know, posing a question and talking about, you know,
talking about my own experiences. And honesty, I learned at a young age really gets people like
hurt and killed and I worried for my family because my brothers and sisters were being chased
from school. Umm like, it was a horrific time. And now I realize, hey, since this is —
it brought like, yes, the visibility brought a lot of good things. But it brought me a lot of direct
physical harm, a lot of mental strife. So, I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to stop
activism. I was just going to target the people I wanted to target. I didn't care about those, you
know, white queers are watching this documentary, they're not the ones that I need to like,
reach out to or share this story with,
those real people who needed real help, which I would much rather do so yes, my activism is in
more of the shadows now.
But guess what, so are these people so I'm going where it goes, where the work is needed to
go.
Sabrin Gadow 30:45
I respect that. First, you talk about CVE and for those who don't know CVE is Countering Violent
extremism a program the government created to infiltrate like schools, public programs, things
that like they're getting federal grant money for. To like surveil people who are like being seen
as like being susceptible to joining terrorist groups. Things can seem simple as like people like
putting on hijab and not putting hijab has been more interesting in school life, things Iike being
more interested in Islam so like literally that was punishing curiosity. So as someone who was
around during this time with this documentary were you apart of part of the active against fight
against CVE.
Ash Farah 31:23
Yeah and I remember specifically going to um, I think Ilhan was speaking at this event at the
Bryant Cole about it and was confronted by a bunch of students like myself about this issue and
I remember sitting there in that room like in like, in that set like in front row sitting there with
myself like by myself, just like realizing that I look to the left of me, and I saw the Macalin that
like, you know, those Islamic school teacher that would torture me. Crying for their own kids and
worried about their own issues and just like, I remember that moment, like, I don't get to pick my
communities. But I wanted to be there for all sides of me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:19
That’s such an interesting thing to say all sides of you. Wouldn’t you consider it hard to sit there
and be in that kind of space, were you able to look yo you left and look yo your right and there’s
people have actively harmed you. We've been a whole situations or violence situations, and try
to fight with something that not only harms you, but your community as well, while they're
actively harming you. Like, for example, the out north one, the documentary that you came out
talking about being queer, and all that intersection of being queer, Muslim, and smally. And now
you're being harassed because of that, and then receiving, like threats because of that, and
then not being the space where you're actively advocating for people who wouldn't think for
you?
Ash Farah 33:00
Because that's the thing about justice you. You either want justice for everyone regardless of
how they are to you or you? You're not, you're not you don't just advocate and, like, wish good
things upon people because they like you. You know, like, I made peace with the fact that I
wasn't going to be liked by my community early on. But that doesn't mean people should be
surveyed. It doesn't mean people should be, you know, having Muslim bans and it doesn't mean
that, you know, like, our community should be pushed out through housing issues and initiatives
without their voice, you know, and all those things like, doesn't matter if they don't like me, or if
they wanted me dead, because that's more reflection on them than it is on me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:57
And that’s on period.
Ash Farah 33:43
You know, and, like, I just I remember, there's been so many like, I loved Islamic studies, and
Islamic stories as a kid. Because, literally if you —- Nabi Mohammed literally had the closest
saxabas [disciples] who were his closest companions were men who wanted him gone, who
wanted him dead, who wanted him you know, for better like during their times when they were
not Muslim. You know, like they truly believed all those horrible things and still reached out, still
did but did not resort to immediate violence and all that so I just found that admirable and you
kind of grew in with me and within my own philosophies of life.
Also, liked Isa [Jesus], but you know, like you can't be saying that too loud and in a masjid like
this, you know, because that's kinda like you riding a little Christian line there. What do you
mean Isa? But like, yeah, that like sense of like, turn your cheek sometimes.
It's not about you.
Sabrin Gadow 34:00
I like that because at the end of the day it’s for the community. Yeah.
Ash Farah 34:19
And part of it, whatever affects them, will affect me. It will affect my siblings, it will affect my
sister. So I am of the community like I got here through asylum status. So Muslim ban is very
serious. Like it's, you know, that kind of stuff. So, definitely.
Sabrin Gadow 35:18
You talk something — when you spoke about activism you do you spoke about healing and
healing through that, how's that relate to the major you chose at Augsburg?
Ash Farah 35:28
Well, I'm not gonna lie. The major I chose that Augsburg was bio psychology, because it was
the closest to neuro psychology because it was the study of the human mind. And I'm pre-med
because I am an African stereotype. And despite that, my mom really wanted me to be Poli-sci.
I like a lot of people thought it was going to be Poli-Sci because of, you know, just my interest in
activism and advocacy and all those sorts of things. But I just thought that I couldn't have both.
But I feel like you can pursue medicine. You can't pursue medicine without knowing the
communities that you serve, and stuff like that. So I think it made me more well rounded person
like, Yes, I wrote curriculum. The moment — that was the first job I got out of high school for the
superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools by asked me after all the basically unpaid
trainings and work that I did to help create curriculum around LGBT history, and I was the
youngest person to be able to do so just because of that sort of work. And I found that policy
and politics and lobbying and working anti violence directly and working with youth all that did
not bring me the same.
It all had the same overarching theme of healing that I was trying to get. And I think the closest
to you know, a traditional healer is a doctor. So I really am hoping to become a doctor so that I
could help support a lot of non like a lot of nonprofits. I wrote a very —- I was a grant writer for a
minute. So I know the struggle of trying to get funding for your communities when they're like,
poor low income, stuff like that. So having a little couple names before your name, to like, push
something along to help your community really does help. Also, we literally have the worst
outcomes for, you know, Somali people here and there's a lot of like medicine, misinformation
that was given out by shitty people to vulnerable members of our community, and referring to
the antivaxxers who and also like, there's just not a lot of mental health advocates in our
community, even though for a vast majority of our elders are suffering from PTSD.
Ash Farah 38:00
You can't watch your entire family drown in a ferry and expect to be normal and then dropped
into a random country, that the only thing you have is faith in your religion, and expect and strife
and you know and expect to be normal with a lot of, you know, a lot of the female. A lot of older
people, all the females in our community have had issues of sexual assault or witness sexual
assault, there are more times I have a ricochet bullet from where my mom, got shot, it's just not,
you know, like it's just not talked about because and we need to have people who look like us
be able to address these issues. So it's not just, you know, just pray on it. Because that's the
only way to stop these cycles of trauma and stuff like that. So I would love and love to be that
person. And also guess what trans people also horrific outcomes when it comes to health care,
and so do black people.
So I figured it was the perfect calling for me.
Sabrin Gadow 39:00
That’s amazing, you talk a lot about unspoken, and things that are not talked about and is that
underlying theme that you’ve noticed a lot? Like what things you don't want to talk about things
we don't want to see we push aside and let that bubble until we actually have to address it.
Ash Farah 39:20
Yes, I think um, there's a lot of issues like that, but in particular, like queer Muslims have existed
and will continue to exist. It's just we choose not to talk about that because it's much easier to
tell your family that that cousin or that sibling
left or disappeared or got sick, then deal with the fact that this is a problem that needs the like
Reformation that we need to change the way we view the way, the way we accept treatment of
LGBT Muslims in our community.
Because that is not a reflection on the deen [faith] but a reflection of us.
Sabrin Gadow 40:10
You talk a lot about change. Do you think that the younger generation will bring about this kind
of change?
Ash Farah 40:12
Yeah, like the younger generations, I've already noticed have been more accepting and more
like conscious and aware of these issues and stuff like that it just comes down to if there will be
less of a literalist interpretation, and less, you know, hatred, but in, you know, we say, with every
generation, it'll get better and stuff like that. But, you know, hatred has a way of being taught as
a way of like, being propagated like Frederick Douglass said, it's easier to build a boy and make
a man or something like that, you know, it gets really, you know, and I think we shouldn't be
reaching out to youth, if people see like, that gay people cause diseases or like, they'll be like
Sodom and Gomorrah, like Qumul-lut [The People of Lot] you know, and stuff like that. And that
they are just generally bad people.
And they'll believe it because we're only 7% of the population. So it's not that many and even
trans people is even less. But even then we're still the same amount of people that have red
hair, you know, but like, youth aren't seeing positive, like impacts and positive, like members of
the community and stuff like that, who are out, who are visible or doing things that are, like
consciously positive. We're not going to we're not going to spark change.
Ash Farah 41:29
Where were we?
Sabrin Gadow 41:31
Sorry for the small break we took. We had to go grab a drink of water. You talk a lot about
visibility, and you talk a lot about the things that aren't talking about, and spoken about but you
think you made the chose to be more visible or did you feel like you had to like it was a duty you
owed?
Ash Farah 41:41
Here's the thing about visibility. I came out to my entire family at five. I wrote down. I'm a boy! I
loved Vikings, I loved all sorts of more masculine things, and what the immediate assumption
was, was that I had a jinn.
That I was possessed with a jinn and a masculine jinn and stuff like that or that I had an evil
eye or something. So they of course started you know, conversion therapies and stuff like that
to help and eventually, like it became I was a very, very honest kid so that obviously didn't really
didn't work at all because it was nothing wrong with me. And I this, I don't think there was a point
in my life where I decided to not be visible, I think I was always visible except under threats of
violence. That was it and I would, in a wouldn't even be a threat to me, it would be a threat to
either my siblings or my mom. And at that point, I started to like realize around the age of like,
nine or so that I needed to not be as visible not be as loud about it because it actually had
terrible effects on my mother and my siblings and my family in general. And it was, you know,
like, and I went along with it, I acted like I was consistently cured. I delved into Islam trying to
find some loophole, some something, some Hadith that like, show that I wasn't just this, you
know, weird, pariah! That there had to be something to explain my existence. You know, and
because I knew was true, and I wasn't lying and all those things, eventually found out the
Hamza one of the Saxaba [disciple] was performed a gender reassignment surgery on what
they would call them Mukannahth, which are, you know, like men who resemble women is the
direct translation, but which are trans women and of course, you know, transmen existed too at
that time and even in our and then I started to
Think. Okay, well, if the Quran doesn't obviously have anything against being like trans andthe
only Hadith I found was for it. I figured out right then that there was nothing and that Allah didn't
hate me, but that my people did. And honestly, people have hated a lot of people over time for
stupid reasons, you know people just love to hate. And I decided right then and I wasn't going to
be ashamed of anything that I had. Because I knew that if there was an Allah, that Allah was
merciful. Because I always read those the first line before any Sura [Chapter]. Do you know the
Most Merciful so I’m like if that is really true, then I am going to be fine. And those who wish
violence upon me, will have to account for it on the Day of Judgment. I found very that was very
faithful in that sense.
And I decided not to hide anything because Allah made me the way I was.
And I decided to be visible. And in the sense of I decided not to lie, which was a sin anyway.
You know? And that's okay. AndI just and I got to the point where like, I had no choice but to be
visible because not to be visible was going to kill my soul. It was just, I would have to pretend to
be someone I was completely not to everybody that I love and that they would start to love this
random person that I created. And I was not what I wanted. I wanted people to either hate the
authentic me or love the authentic me, then to love with this image, I propagate and hide out of
fear.
So if it was a choice, I don't even think it was a choice. I think the idea that it can be a choice to
hide yourself is actually really harmful, because so many Muslim queers I hear are just like, oh
yeah. Yeah!
Just go back in the closet!
When it's detrimental to your health and your physical well being, and your will to live because
why would you live if you can't sustain love or be authentic to your loved ones, or be honest like
that's not a life you're just living in a shell of a person, even though for but it's justified for safety
and I just realized I had nothing to lose and when it came to, obviously I had my life to lose. I
had like family to lose it like I had to leave at 13 I was homeless throughout my entirety of my
teen years. I've been beaten more like more times than I can remember.
I just —- in the sense of I had nothing to lose in the sense of the only thing I would have lost
was a fake life
I'd rather die a real one.
[RADIO SILENCE]
Okay? Hi.
Nothing???
Sabrin Gadow 47:30
Ohh (laughter)!
Going off your comment of dying a real one.
How do you feel? Headass.
You talk about you know that you had nothing to lose, you talk about your work and activism
and how it affected your family, and what does your family think of your work?
Ash Farah 47:50
It took, I'm not gonna lie I was disowned. It took a long while for me to get to a point where like,
where my mom and I can sit down and talk and do all that because was the once I left like it got
slightly better for them and over time it did get better for them in terms of being targeted and
having these effects but the fact that I continuously reached out and was doing work and I mean
I was like 16 doing it trans rally at the Capitol like it was you know, I was they doing teacher
workshop so it was entering classrooms you know, I was going against conversion therapy. And
that included Islamic conversion therapy, and stuff like that. So it was very much like can’t you
just go away and being gay somewhere else? Can’t you just not claiming to be somali, I just
change your name, change everything about you become fully Americanized, to be able to be,
you know, and I said, No, because I love my culture, and I love my people. I'm going to keep
this about me.
And then my mom was like, well I don't want you to come back in a body bag, please stop
speaking out with this is really, who does this help? Who does this help? And I'm, like, you
know, stuff like that because all it's doing is like harming you and I had my ribs are smashed and
I was, you know, like sleeping from bench the bench and like, like during school it was just not
good. It was not a good time and but I don't know like I just got it took literally until I was 20 to be
able to, for my entire family to realize that my leaving was to protect them so they weren't as
much of a target because I could not live there. And still, you know, I'd rather starve begging but
like doing that then have my family affected by a choice that I made a choice that I thought was
living the honest life, you know, and it took a conversation with my Mom to be like, hooyo, Abu
Talib, loved his nephew Nabi Mohammed, even though he was literally causing hell for him, his
tribe, his well being, and being called the daily like a crazy person or possessed by literally
everybody in his life, but he still defended a man who went against his core faith, he still died a
Kufar, he still died a disbeliever. You know, he still doesn't know he's still worship idols, you
know, but it was because of my family means more than that, if you don’t see that, I will find
family, and it just won't be you. And it just we had that, you know, moment of like, catharsis
between us. It took literally me making it into adulthood, making it my way in, you know, living to
tell them story about it. For her to realize that I made a good decision for her, the Family and
ultimately myself, because I'm in a good place now.
Sabrin Gadow 51:11
You referring to a prophet of like his life stuff like that making awesome letters to his life in your
life? Do you feel like you were chosen as well?
Ash Farah 51:23
No no no noooo. As much as I am borderline Kufar, now I'm not committing shirk, I just found
inspiring. That's all! I just found him inspiring and I find it like a good metaphor and stuff like that
for me to like, talk to my mom and talk to people that will view me as like this weird opposing
like, crazy person talking about like, Oh yeah, you can be queer Muslim, you can not be Queer
you can be queer and from some background and decide not to be Muslim. You can be Muslim
and do X, Y, Z because from diverse people, you know, and stuff like that.
While trying to remind people that through their own faith and stuff like that, like
People have been like people have been closed minded before in the Quran and it's not ended
up well for them. So maybe don't be like that?
Unknown Speaker 52:13
How does it feel to be told that because of your multiple identities and that you can’t be Muslim
when you’re like an Islamic scholar —Ash Farah 52:23
Oh I’m not an Islamic scholar.
Sabrin Gadow 52:26
I mean, like you’d win at a lot of conventions and you’re great reciter and things like that.
Like does it feel to know literally so much about the Quran, how does it feel to have someone
quiet literally struggled through their alif, ba, ta, [arabic alphabet] looking you dead in the face
and say that you cannot exist.
Ash Farah 52:44
I love that because it's not that you cannot exist is that my brain does not want you to exist
because then they will have to come up with this idea that Islam is more than their narrow
definition of the faith. At the end of the day is supposed to be easy.
Like, there was, you know, the story of like maybe Mohammed going into, you know, riding and
the baqra. You know, like, going on, you know, going to up to Jannah [heaven] and seeing all
the prophets and from Adam to you know himself and stuff like that and Allah saying that, listen,
this was prescribed I forget the exact number 40 times a day or something like that and moses
of being like, Nah man, if you're going back because my people couldn’t do even less than that,
so go back and back and forth between him and allah and he stopped at 5, the they decided
upon five daily prayers. And the lesson behind was Islam supposed to be an easy faith
accessible to all, regardless of race, gender, orientation, all that and I just until they grasp that
concept over there need to be you know,
Superior or their own prejudice with using justify justifying through the Quran they can I don't
think they ever will wrap their head around my existence?
… and I'm okay making people's heads explode because every fourth person starts to realize
well yes you can have both because like you know allah created people like me. So and that
you don't know everything you're just a stupid human being so follow your faith and be kind to
others
Sabrin Gadow 53:41
we're humans we live learn and make mistakes and grow and prosper. So as you a student at
Augsburg, can you talk about what kind of work you do here or that you are involved in?
Ash Farah 54:59
okay man. Um so I was a part of QIPOC like queer indigenous people of color which is a
student group here created to make space for queer indigenous people of color, of course, it
became a branched off of QPA, which is the main LGBT organization on campus. I'm the
current president and was on the board last year, really to create a space where queer people
of color can come together, chill, find solace in each other find community and get provided with
the resources that they need through and be able to come to social events during the campus
and stuff like that find people who have stories similar to them. It is a space for people who are
out and not out on campus, which is one of the you know, only spaces where people are
allowed to do that.
We make sure events are for the healing of the fundamental healing of our community, you
know, and we do various activities. We do various fun you normally do. Come together type
things because, you know, like, I want to create a sense of community here because in a
predominantly white institution and within those two, the two intersections alone, there's a lot of
ways that becomes a barrier to accessing the four year education here at this university. So it's
the least we can do as students to support each other through this horrific process, especially
since the majority of QIPOC are first generation and don't, you know, get this process at all so
it's better to go through it together.
That's what we do. QIPOC also has done resolutions for student government, for the protection
of trans people and trans day of remembrance. We also are part of the Equity Council, right
thing on campus and just various other student group collaborations with emphasis or this just
to insight a sense of intentional inclusivity, even in our Multicultural Student orgs.
Sabrin Gadow 55:01
I like how you say the word intentional inclusivity because (not just footnotes!) not just footnotes
because you're LGBT regardless.
LGBTQIA student services officially entered into MSS which was an intentional move to make
sure that we're including queer people who do have the identity where your a person of color too
so that is will not be treated like two separate identities.
How do you feel QIPOC is now navigating with the more boost of this new change?
Well, that LGBTQIA services included in MSS events being able to be under their wing not
either way, we'll be able to be like working closely with them despite that like do you feel that
this is a good move for QIPOC?
Ash Farah 57:54
I feel like this was ultimately a good move for QIPOC and was a move created and initiated and
pushed for by students last year.
We just did not like QIPOC only fitting really under on the LGBT student services or only under
multicultural services, which makes it really hard to find an advisor. Because, you know, like we
fit under both and I find that ultimately it'll be good for QIPOC students to be able to have
access to both things. Like and also have a space where they can be themselves among people
like them. So it's ultimately a good thing. Let's see.
Sabrin Gadow 58:26
How do you remain connected to your community or the causes you represent
Ash Farah 58:47
How do I remain connected to my community?
Well, I for now, due to a hate crime that was pretty recent and just trying to regain my own
health. I've been doing a lot of the direct direct activism that’s what I've been doing the last six
months.
Yeah, for the last couple months, um, but I just Yeah, but for the last couple months, but that's
Okay, because one way that I remain connected to the community that I want to represent and
that I am part of is through my student activism and student work.
So one way that I remain connected while trying to finish the course load of a pre med student is
through just like I had that horrific hate crimes. Sixth months ago.
Was it six months? I felt like no, it was July 4, actually.
About four months. Yeah, and the resulting concussion made school really hard to do so. I've
not been doing a lot of their direct activism that I've normally done but I've been active with
QIPOC on campus and creating groups and resources and reaching out to MSS groups and
stuff like that. So, students, the student group is one way that I have access to my community.
Another way that I like to remain connected to my community is through a book that I'm working
on. That I've been working on for about six months. And it's called, I don't know, I don't have a
title right now, but it will be basically be the Forgotten and 99 names, the other forgotten like the
other 99 names or something like that, where I would using the prompts of the you know, the
allah’s 99 names to showcase short stories and short interviews with Muslim individuals who
aren't typically included in the traditional narrative of what it means to be a Muslim. I mean, Like
for the obviously the most merciful, I will be talking about a friend miski, who in conversion
therapy had to had was literally taken back home for even more, you know, like conversion
therapy and stuff like that due to being a trans woman, which was seen as a form of
homosexuality and detestable by their parents. And she have not seen her since then. But, you
know, writing her story and what I know about her and how she did, and how she taught me
what, like, what mercy really like meant, that kind of thing on there's for the other 99 names, just
various, like queer Muslims or single moms or victim, Muslim women who've been assaulted,
sexually assaulted and all this by you know, just using the and interrogating these otherwise
forgotten stories and narratives into a, you know, short novel. And it's a process because it
involves interviewing a lot of people on a lot of topics that are very, you know, close to their
heart and not openly talked about in a lot of like Islamic circles, at least traditionally Islamic
circles that I've been in. And I think it'll be one way that I still remain connected in the
community, whatever presents also, another way that I'm remaining connected hopefully is by
the time I graduate, to start a another nonprofit.
Ash Farah 1:02:45
I co founded one early last year, which was for trans youth. Um, but another one which is we're
trying to come up with a name or debate debating whether we should say RUNTA which means
truth in Somali or come up with a more you know more pan-Islamic you know name for it but to
be an org dedicated for most queer Muslims and people from Muslim backgrounds who
happened to be queer and stuff like that so and just working on how that might look or what
types of events or things that might do so those are ways that I'm trying to stay connected.
Sabrin Gadow 1:03:29
Yeah, thank you and I as many other fans are, like can not wait for the book to drop
(laughter) thank you so much and thank you for your time. Thank you for sitting here with me
and talking about your path and your journey and it has been very informative and I want to
thank you for your time.
Sabrin 0:00
This is Sabrin doing an oral history project. Um Can you introduce yourself real quick?
Mustafa:
Yeah, this is Mustafa Jumale. Um yeah, uh 29. Black Immigrant organizer
Sabrin:
What identities or communities do you identify as being a part of?
Mustafa:
I am, I would say I am being apart of the Black immigrant communities. Um, also apart of the
queer community. And, you know, I think like I’m most connected to black organizers and
organizations, both like um multi generational African Americans and uh um black immigrant
folks I would say those are like my people really, you know? Yeah
Sabrin 0:48:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Yeah, um uh what do I wanna say about my childhood. Yeah, you know, um it was great, to be
honest. Of course, you know, growing up poor growing up as a, you know, as refugees fleeing
conflicts, having older parents who have to, like restart their life in a foreign country with new
customs and a language challenging but you know Alhamdulillah, like my parents pushed, oh,
you know, you know provided us with everything that we needed. Um I have 11 other siblings,
most of us live in the US. I have two siblings who live in Canada and one in Somalia.
Yeah, so my most of my life I've been in Minnesota, but when we first came to the US, we
settled in Kansas, Missouri, and then we live-moved to San Diego. Some of my siblings and my
cousin moved to Minnesota where they heard their jobs and then uh yeah. My brother got into
some trouble and was arrested and subsequently deported. And so my mom was doing a lot of
commuting back and forth between San Diego and Minneapolis and then ended up feeling like
Minnesota a better option for us as a family. So we moved to rural Minnesota, which was crazy
and in a city called Mankota and uh not very welcoming environment at all. And we were there
for like two years and then we moved to suburban Minneapolis, and Eden Prairie. And, you
know actually , some of my siblings still, one of them just moved out, the last sibling just moved
out of the complex that we had originally settled in the early 2000s. But yeah, so we moved to
Eden Prairie there was a larger Somali population, larger immigrant population. And went to like
middle school there and high school in Eden Prairie and transferred to Edina. Cause it was like
a shitshow for black migrant youth, particularly Somali youth. School was just being xenophobic
so I left and have yeah had a really better time in a Edina public schools and yeah.
Sabrin 3:37
Um, ok after you went to Edina public schools you went to the U of M, can you talk a little bit
about your experience at the U?
Mustafa 3:45
Yeah the U of M was great, I would say I had an overall a great experience. Of course, it’s a
historically white university, I mean, a predominantly white university so there the challenges of
being a student of color and immigrants in this space. You know, a lot of issues around policing,
particularly like the West Bank is like closest to the largest Somali population outside of
Mogadishu. Cedar Riverside, you know so the police just criminalize all Somalis basically on
the West Bank didn't know who was a student, some Somali kids, or some Black kids did
something, you know, does not mean you have to like criminalize all of the Somali students on
campus. So that was a particularly challenging thing. Otherwise, I would say adequate
experience. Was in the Somali Student Association, did a ton of research, met wonderful
friends. Some of them I’m still connected to. Uh, travelled to South Africa. Yeah, just like really
opened my eyes to many, many different things and opportunities.
Sabrin 4:53:
Yeah. So your apart of the Somali Student Association, at what capacity were you involved with
them?
Mustafa 4:56:
I was the outreach coordinator and I want to say at one time I was at, I was a secretary. Yeah.
And so yeah, I did it for one year, it was good. There was challenges, you know, because
they're just like different perspectives are just like different perspectives of the group, right? You
have people who are very liberal, people who were moderates, people who were conservatives.
So sometimes making decisions around like dancing, doing Dhaanto, cultural social things
where men and women were mixing were challenging, you know, but we got through it through
difficult dialogue, you know. Yeah the SomalI Student Association really,I think is a backbone for
Somali students not only in the capacity that they have to like just convene students, but to do
advocacy for them to, you know. And so I remember, like uniting as Somali students when the
Somali Student Association president, my sophomore year in college was like dragged out of
the Wilson Library on the West Bank of the U of M. An It was just that the University of
Minnesota police departments just at the time and I don't know these days probably the same
was just so Zena phobic and racist towards Somali students Yeah. I worked on a like oral
history project with immigration history Research Center at University of Minnesota. And that I
think was a significant project for me to like really understand other Somali identity, other Somali
youth identities and what there experiencing compared to what I was experiencing, transitioning,
again, part of being part of the 1.5 generation.
Sabrin 7:09
What do you mean by 1.5?
Mustafa 7:13
Uh 1.5 is like folks who were like born in Somalia, but raised in the US, like myself. So, you
know, like, I don't really have much of a memory of my time in Somalia. So, I would say that a
lot of like the 1.5 generation, we do a really good job of like, constantly negotiating, you know
the space between Somali culture and the US.
Sabrin 7:50
Yeah, so that's such an interesting way to say that. So you start a little bit about studying racism
in South Africa. How did that shape you as a person today?
Unknown Speaker 8:00
I think I my South African experience was really significant. You know, to like understand their
history about like, the trauma during apartheid that they had experience. It really helped kind of,
like inform my understanding and complexity around racism. You know, how racism can be so
complex and how racist ideology really like, is deeply embedded in these societies. And I will
say, you know, also like, just the way even that racism in South Africa is more complex, and like
different than other places. So that experience was really good for me like it helped me not only
understand like how the students in South Africa were being treated at what where historically
white universities and now are, you know, more and more becoming blacker and blacker. And
so at the time I was working on a research project with about the experiences of African
American and African students, predominantly white, and historically white University. So I
interviewed some South African students, you know about their experiences at these
universities and it's very similar experiences, you know, that you would imagine. White students
and fraternities doing ridiculously racist things, like the same things that you see on some of
these campuses in the US. I would say the way in which South African universities responded to
the violence that these white folks were perpetuating was much more progressive than how like
a lot of these US institutions and universities responded to. Really, I think like that tradition
comes out of their peace and reconciliation process. There was, God I forget his name now, but
I used to really be involved deeply in some of this research. But yeah, there was a minister of a
university that like some really fucked up, xenaphobic things happen. And he convened a whole
like reconciliation process, you know, obviously, the students were, I think, expelled and
punished but like, moving forward there needed to be a conversation. So going back to like
South Africa last year, and my own, a lot of the same issues, honestly, that I saw in all nine. So
10 years later, or eight years later, or nine years later. Xenophobia is still rampant over there
and the wealth still held by white folks. You know, there's definitely like the youth and listening to
what the youth and the like next set of leaders and how they will work around reparations issues
around land and money, you know. So now there's some really like progressive conversations
happening around that. But I don't think the current like South African Leadership would be,
would engaged in actually providing reparations for folks or taking land, taking and giving people
their land back, you know, from the apartheid.
Sabrin 11:49
No, definitely. The experience you had in South Africa really is a great one. How did that help
you when you came back to America and the next steps that you took towards your career?
Mustafa 11:56
Yeah, so when I came back, I just like continued to do that research. Do you know it helped me
realize, like, how interconnected the world is, you know, and how a lot of our challenges are
similar. And you know, at the time I had always had never left US, like aside from going to
Canada and so it was like really powerful experience for me. And so I just continue that
trajectory of like research did some more research on like, Somali history, Somali oral history
projects. And then yeah, and then I, I ended up like, you know, like being really connected to
some of those people. I'm in South Africa. So we're still in touch and you know, I still connect
with them.
Sabrin 13:01
That’s so nice. How would you define activism?
Mustafa:
I would say activism really is, is… Activism for me, it means, the way it manifests in my life is
that I pretty much have been working in public policy around human rights and humanitarian
issues. And the public policy work that I do now with Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI),
and the black immigrant collective work, and the consultation that I've been doing, I think, is the
form of activism because a lot of my work is just it’s mainly around issues that impact me and
my people and my community and I'm privileged in that sense to, you know, get to be paid for
the things I'm passionate about. For other people activism could be anything, you know,
anything that they're passionate about, like supporting in any way that makes us in their life.
Activism does not have to be like you showing up and risking your life in action. It could be you
donating, it could be you guys, whatever capacity you folks have. So, activism to me is
obviously like standing up for our fellow human beings really looking and making sure people
you know, have dignity in their lives and are not placed in a position where like, you know, I
guess the state violence will forever continue in this country but yeah.
Sabrin 14:55
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, no that was really great. You talk a lot about the work in activism you
do is policy work and that really contributes back to like the policy work you did back in, when
you used to work for Congress, Congressman Ellison and the work that you do for your current
organization called Khrye Solutions. Can you talk a bit about both those experiences?
Mustafa 15:16
Yeah, I had a really good time working at Congressman Ellison’s office. I mean, obviously, it
was really challenging. I was very young, and I was dealing with some, like, big community
issues, you know, like a lot of the work that I did was around foreign policy around human rights,
and so particularly around Somalia, Ethiopia, a lot of work on remittances. And remittances are
like money that's permitted back to people in their home countries, we call it in Somali hawala. Is
like and so basically people are sending, you know, maybe like monthly or weekly funds to their
families back home to support their basic living. And so I've done a lot of work on that. Me and
my colleagues were really leading the charge on remittances, on Somali remittances. And we
were able to pass a bill that provided like banks, a technical fix that they were asking about, that
they thought would help with the Somalia situation. Ultimately, it really did not help it. So the
deal that we worked on allows regulators to, to share information, you know, that state and the
federal regulators can now share audit that they do on remittances. And so did that.
And then did a lot of work on Ethiopian human rights. In 2015, you know, we had a bunch of like
folks who've been killed in Ethiopia, and there's a large Ethiopian population here in Minnesota
and so I wanted to build community to do advocacy around that issue. And really making sure
that that, you know, the US government holds these Ethiopian governments accountable, like
pressure to the Ethiopian government to not be killing its own constituents or its own citizens. I
worked with the Oakland Institute that's based in Oakland, California, on a resolution that was
passed last year in in Congress basically condemning the Ethiopian government for the killings,
the killings of the Oromo youth, Anuak youth, you name it. We did a lot of work also around O.
Chela, who's the Anuak leader in Ethiopia. And Chela was kidnapped by the Ethiopian
government, detained and tortured. And so we wrote a lot of letters to the administration, to the
White House, urging them to advocate for the release of Chela. Ultimately, he was released
when, you know, there was a big, like revolution like this, those uprisings that were happening
led to a huge shift in Ethiopian government, you know. Apparently so there's a new prime
minister, and upon when he joined, he released Chela and other political leaders, a lot of Oromo
leaders. So I remember reading that on Twitter, and this was after I had left Congressman
Ellison's office last year and just breaking down and crying, you know, just because I could not
believe Chela was released. I had never met Chela Amitabh at the Oakland Institute, helped me
figure out how to do advocacy around Ethiopia, in Congress, and they were working on his
campaign Campaign to get a Chela released. So that's how that's connected to that. But yeah, I
did that. And then so like really working for Congressman Ellison and other elected officials
really allowed me to like understand how state and federal policy works and how to move policy,
got to meet a lot of powerful leaders. And so that led me to like leaving Congressman Ellison’s
office and starting data Khyre solutions with my friend and then going I'm kind of like a retreat to
like a little time off to just relax. Because I was burnout. We were doing a lot of work around a lot
of work around voter engagement, a lot of work around the humanitarian lobbying. And so
ultimately, it didn't really work out for my friend. She was not interested in this type of work. And
I ended up continuing on my own. And then you know, Trump was elected. And as a result of
that, a bunch of us got together and established the black immigrant collective. Which is a
collective that is based in Minnesota that does community based advocacy work on black
immigration issues. It's mainly led by black immigrant women. So I've been doing that for almost
three years. And then through that I got connected to and more involved in immigration work.
There's also like several, like a lot of our work has been around Liberian DED (Deferred Enforced
Departure) because there's several Nigerians who are part of the collective. And so collective,
the collective started really after the Muslim ban was put in place like a bunch of us kept getting
calls and what like going on? You know, people who were worried that they were not going to
be reunited with their families and things like that because of this ban. Then from there, we
ended up working on immigration policies working on something called Liberian DED, Deferred
Enforced Departure. I call it Deferred Enforced Deportation. Yeah, so BAJI, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, reached out to them on us kind of thinking through like how we want to go
about doing this advocacy work. And so they flew out to educate us on some training. We got to
know them better, what they do. And then they invited us to DC to advocate for Haitian
temporary protected status. And temporary protected status is a status that folks are given when
the country that they're from experiences a man made crisis like a civil conflict or environmental
crisis, you know, like the hurricane, earthquake, things like that.
And so the administration so --Trump administration-- is terminating TPS for terminated TPS for
Haiti. So what that meant is that you know, close like 56 or 58,000 Hatiain TPS holders were
gonna become undocumented and be required to leave the country. And that's not even
including their children who would leave with them problaby, who are US born children. And so,
yeah, and so from there, we went to other convenings. And so they were there was a lot of, you
know, as the cookie at the time around Liberian DED, like a small group of people, Liberians, I
think we're working on it and other advocacy organizations. But we really came in there and just
like really uplifted the Liberian DED situation. And so Liberian DED is similar to TPS except that
the President of the United States has to extend it every year, so it's a discussion of the
president to extend, terminate or to terminate. So he decided to in 2018, he decided to
terminate it and provide people with like a year to get out of the country.
**techincal difficulties from 24:34 to 25:20 **
Sabrin:
Ok, we were talking about the president deciding to terminate DED in 2019 or 2018.
Mustafa 25:29
Yeah, so what he did was that, you know, he put the Liberians on noticed who were on DED.
Which, for us, we think it's about 4000 or 5000 Liberains who have that status. There are a lot
more eligible for that status. However, because of the, because of the fees associated with it, it's
expensive. You're talking about $400 $500 every year a pop applying for this. And so and we're
talking about people who are poor working class immigrants, and so some families have to
make the tough decision of deciding who in their family, usually the breadwinner is going to get
renewed. And so, and for others, they become undocumented. So, thankfully, you know, like, for
the past several years, you know, DED has been continued to be renewed every year.
And so, because of our advocacy, we actually were able to get DED comprehensive
immigration. Wait not the comprehensive immigration bill that was discussed a couple of years
ago in Congress. Okay, let me pause. I’m confusing myself. Okay, so what I'm trying to say is
that Congress earlier this year passed a bill called the Dream and Promise Act. It provides a
pathway to permanent status for DACA dreamers, TPS holders and DED holders. And so DED
is really only like 4000-5000. We got it to the point where they were included in that major piece
of legislation. We uplifted it as like a bigger issue with an immigration policy. And then all of a
sudden you have people like Nancy Pelosi and others speaking about the DED anytime they
talked about TPS. And that's how they talked about DED, which is great. And so as a result of
many, many years, I've only been involved in this for like the past three and a half years,
Liberian DED work. But many Liberian aunties, predominantly - and women, Liberian womenhave been doing this work for many years, for the past 20 years. And so in the past three years,
we're able to make a lot of strides. I think because the environments that we were put into
require us to act quickly and aggressively to protect our people. And so as a result of that
Congress last week passed a defense bill, defense bill passed in the House and then passed in
the Senate. And so the in that bill- first of all that bill is toxic. That bill is basically like, providing
funding to people, you know, military support for foreign governments, expanding our military
industrial complex here. But within this bill, there's language that Senator Jack Reed put in that
provides permanent status for Liberian DED holders. So that bill was passed in the House last
week, it's kind of tomorrow, the Senate is gonna vote on it. They expect the President to sign it
sometime this week. And just like that, you know, Liberians who have been undocumented for
20 years, in a couple of weeks can apply for a green card.
Sabrin:
That’s amazing.
Mustafa:
I know, this is such a big deal, you know, and so, I mean, this is probably one of the only
progressive immigration themes that have passed in this administration you know, and so I,
yeah. You know, for me, I've been doing this a while, and so I have the technical experience, so
do other people in the collective. So , yeah, it's just been simply amazing to see what we’ve
been able to do
Sabrin 30:09
Yeah, it's so nice to see your hard work and other people's hard work actually amount to
something, especially in this administration. And not only but an administration whose past
things like the Muslim ban, so that this got past is absolutely amazing. I am so happy for
everyone who affected. Okay, so you talk a lot about how you got into activism through policy
work and stuff and like activism through your schools, Somali Student Association and the
programs and jobs you've worked afterward. Do you think that you actively chose to become an
activist or do you think that fell into your lap and not fall into your lap but, like fell into your path
as you got older? And if so why?
Mustafa 30:42
So I've always been interested in like, human rights I've always been interested in protecting
and advocating for vulnerable communities and people. I think what really saved my
understanding around the complexities and the challenges we face as people of color in this
world when I went to college, and so I would say that, that really pushed me into working on
issues that are impacted by, you know, working on issues that people are being impacted by.
And from there, you know, I was gonna go to graduate school and become a professor. That
was a track. That was the idea. And then I decided not to out of circumstances. And I didn't get
funding to go to graduate school, you know, I was admitted to Cambridge University in the UK. I
was going to study African, get a MA (masters) in African Studies and didn't get funding so I
decided to work for the Minnesota DFL. I was TAing (teacher’s assistant) for a class at the U,
and one of my students encouraged me to apply for it. So I organized around East African
issues. And then from there that led me to working in politics and working in policy. I mean, it
was not an easy experience. I experienced a lot of trauma in this process. You know, I fell down
and burnt out myself one too many times, but continue to like, get up and try again, keep going.
The racism and xenophobia inside the Minnesota DFL and Minnesota politics in general. It’s
Crazy. The work that needs to get done, you know, around it to really make sure that we are
seen as equal partners in the Democratic party here. And so I'm no longer really organizing
around Democratic electoral work. I mainly now just focus on issue based teamwork, you know,
like immigration, other issues, the policies of those things so, and, you know, doing some
advocacy and activism around that. I'm not, I don’t foresee myself, like ever getting involved in
the Minnesota DFL. Again, just because I don't have I mean, I don't have time for that. I think
people are trying to change here. Hopefully, it becomes a more inclusive organization. But yeah,
I mean, like working at the state legislature and organizing what them, these people really don't
understand. Like these people, I would say are really taking advantage of people of color, but
are not coming through for us when it comes to issues that matter to us.
Sabrin:
That’s definitely true, especially with the DFL it always feels like they’re there for us during like,
when it's time to vote, and when we have to like elect our officials, but after that they kind of
seem to just fade out and not be some concerned are like our policies or issues that affect us. It
just feels like we're being used, which really sucks. And it caused a lot of burnout and frustration
because it feels like not being supported by the community or political group that’s supposed to
support you. And it’s really frustrating. Moving onMustafa 34:18
Yeah,
Sabrin 34:19
Oh, sorry keep going.
Mustafa 34:21
Yeah, no you're right it’s frustrating. That was my DFL experience.
Sabrin:
Moving on to our next part. Do you still, are you still part of the faith?
Mustafa 34:37
Yeah, I consider myself Muslim. You know, I grew up in a Sufi household and so I really like the
Sufi tradition. I was lucky enough to go to Somalia with my father in the last couple of months of
his life. And from that experience, I really got embed myself in the tradition of the Sufis in
central Somalia in particular, and it just really like opened my mind a lot of their traditions and
their practices. And then you know, I was going through a crisis you know, like my dad was
dying so I started reading the Quran
Sabrin:
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Mustafa 35:20
No, thank you. Yeah, my friend. And so my I started like reading the Quran, but the English
version of it. And I remember like my uncle and my other relatives being so fascinated and so
shady about me reading the Quran in English. They were just like really surprised, they were
like ‘Wow. How can you do this?’
Sabrin 35:52
It's almost as if Old Arabic is such an easy language to pick up like, I know people who have like
master the Quran, but there's no one single thing about it because they don't understand the
language in it. So the fact that you can even read it in English is such a good way to learn more
about it but still have a connection where it's like I know it's going on in other words, I know how
it relates to me and my life.
Mustafa 36:13
Yes, I consider myself, I, you know, like, really value the experiences like that I had with the Sufi
tradition. And a lot of it was like meditative to be honest I got involved in meditation center for a
while and a lot of it reminded me of that, you know, chanting, sitting in silence, meditating to
this very rural, very rural place called Burroraqadi, I think it’s called that. I’m probably
mispronouncing it but, like I think it translates to like a place where a lot of people died. But I
went to a Sufi university, that one of my relatives was teaching. And I was like, it was so
beautiful, you know? It was so tranquil, like, so peaceful. And the women had their own mosque.
First time I ever saw that. And because most times, you know, you see the mosques like they
don't provide a lot of space for women.
Sabrin 37:39
Oh, it's always like they’ll have the men’s side decked out 10/10 beautiful, clean head to toe.
And the women’s side will be like an empty broom closet Two rugs in there and they say, why
are you upset? You’re lucky you are even being allowed into here and you're like, ‘Oh, my bad.
How dare I expect right oopsie never again. But, no, it's really nice they have their own
mosque, that’s something they don't really see. Yeah, so how does being Muslim cosign with
your activism?
Mustafa 38:06
Oh, I think it's part of my faith calls me to it. Yeah. For sure. Like to like, stand up for people's
dignity and humanity and rights and being struggle together across communities and in an
intersectional way. Yeah, I really do believe that my faith is really what caused for us to be
involved in our communities.
Sabrin:
Islam is a religion of peace.
Mustafa:
Oh yeah, just tell that to the administration.
Sabrin 38:51
Hoepfully they’ll understand soon enough. What is your experience as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa 38:57
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Sabrin 39:02
Oh, I’m sorry. What is your experince as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa:
Oh, I would say, good. You know, funnyliy enough like a lot of the people even leading the
liberation work are queer black folks in black communities tend to be queer. So like, for
example, if you look at the National Immigration advocacy world, particularly the folks that do
advocacy around black immigration issues, most the majority of the folks network are queer
black migrants are leading that work. And so I would say, like, the ways that it intersects,
honestly, is that it allows us to, like view some of these issues in a more complex way, you
know. So, for example, like we, I was recently writing a letter on Somali temporary protective
status for a member of Congress. Basically they're sending that letter to the administration to
advocate for Somali TPS status to be reinstated. And in that letter, I wrote like, if Somali TPS
holders, are sent back to Somalia, you know, like women and people from marginalized
communities, like queer Somalis, will be persecuted and girls. You know, and, so I think it just,
it layers, like the kind of work that we do. I would say it's also challenging because, you know,
some people are stuck in their ways around queerness. like as if so, like, as if, like, I don't know,
I actually don't know how to explain this. Like, I think it's just homophobia, you know. I'm like
trying to figure out a nice way to say this but it’s homophobia.
Sabrin 41:01
Some of the most complex feelings and emotions can really boil down to homophobia. And
that's really sad. But it really is a-
Mustafa 41:07
It’s homophobia because yeah.
Sabrin:
It really is.
Mustafa:
YeahSabrin:
Oh, I’m sorry did you have something else to say? Ok, so you talk a lot about about the reasons
why you do this and your experiences and like the work you've done. How does your family
think of your work? What does your family think of your work?
Mustafa 41:37
Yes, just to like finish that thought on the queer Somalis. I'm used to queer activism.
Sabrin:
Oh, Im sorry
Mustafa:
Yeah, no, the only thing I was gonna add is that like the word so I was telling you how like the
majority of the people, the black migrant organizing nationally, and leading the policy work on
queer black migrants, the people that we work with directly impacted based on my experience
has really welcomed us and accepted us you know as who we are, and are grateful for the work
that we do. You know, and I've really become like kind of like family to us. I think there are some
people who may be intimidated by you know, queer folks and don't want to work with us. And
that's that, we can’t do anything about that.
Sabrin:
Yeah I’ve definitely realized growing older and like, like moving more into my adulthood is, when
you get people by themselves, their gonna be really cool and their understanding but group
dynamic or group think belief, because the majority will only sway the few and that real sucks.
Going off that, what does your family Think of your work?
Mustafa:
My family is very supportive of my work. I think they're very supportive of my work and I've
always been honestly like. You know, they've heard my broken English, I mean broken Somali,
on BBC Somalia talking about remittances and TPS for Somalia. Other issues so they're proud
that I'm able to like, work on issues that our communities. Yeah.
Sabrin 43:23
That’s so nice. Ok, Any final thoughts or statements you'd like to add?
Mustafa 43:39
But what I would say is like, I'm really inspired by the Somali queers youths that are up and
coming right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing that the work that they lead in the future.
Like over the weekend, I was just observing stuff on Twitter, that like a bunch of Somali queer
youth were just engaging in like, just dialogue around, like queerness and sexuality, you know.
Like this, this young Somali queer woman or femme? I want to say probably probably like 19 or
20 or 20. Posted a pic of her and her girlfriend, you know, some of the Somali Twitter just kind
of went south.
Sabrin:
Yeah. Some people, are just jobless and have so much time to comment.
Mustafa:
Yeah, but its so inspiring to see how the Somali queer youth are responding. How they are
likeI'm here and not afraid. It really brings a lot of warmth to my heart.
Sabrin:
That’s such a beautiful way to end things off. People as always say the youth are our future, and
it's so nice seeing the Somali youth stand for themselves and who they are and undeniably live
their best life.
Mustafa:
I know right? And for a lot of them, I feel like Canada is where it’s at for Somali queers right
now.
Sabrin:
The way Toronto is popping for no reason.
Mustafa:
I know! You see that?
Unknown Speaker 45:23
Thank you so much time with me. I really do appreciate it.
Show less
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Sene... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay, so we're going to start off with stating your full name, where you
were born and where you currently live.
Dienabou M'boup 0:06
Alright, my name is Dienabou M'boup. I was born here, Minneapolis,
Minnesota but my parents- my mom is from Guinea and my dad is from
Senegal. And I learned- I live in Brooklyn Park, Champlin.
Malissa Lamah 0:18
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name at all?
Dienabou M'boup 0:21
My name is derived from the name Zainab. But, um, I guess you can say it's
Africanized, I guess you can say
Malissa Lamah 0:30
Okay and do you have an interesting quick fact about yourself?
Dienabou M'boup 0:36
I skipped first grade.
Malissa Lamah
Why?
Dienabou M'boup
I don't know.
0:38
0:39
Malissa Lamah 0:43
Okay, let's get into the other questions. So as a kid, what was Islam to
you? And when did you realize that you were first like Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 0:51
So that's kind of a hard question. Because I don't really remember but
like, I can say that Okay, when I was a kid, I knew that I was Muslim. I
knew that like I knew it was a part of me I knew I couldn't eat pork I
knew that actually I and I remember I would even have conversations like
in like first grade second grade like oh yeah, I'm Muslim I can't do this
and then like my friends would try to like tell me no you're supposed to
do this But like, I guess you can say I knew I was Muslim but I never
really practiced and like is a thing in the in the West African community.
It's like it like we know we're Muslim but you don't even practice, right?
That's the norm What was the second part?
Malissa Lamah 1:42
The second part was when did you first realize you were Muslim?
Dienabou M'boup 1:45
Um, yeah, I always knew I was Muslim. Yeah, I always knew I was Muslim.
Malissa Lamah 1:49
Okay. Where did you go for prayers like what community or tribe do you
spend most of your time with?
Dienabou M'boup 1:54
So when I was younger? ah,
Malissa Lamah 1:58
or up until now
Dienabou M'boup 1:59
I mean, Like now I feel like it was different when I was younger when I
was younger I was like, I guess you can say like I was just I don't know I
wouldn't really pray and like go to people for prayers or whatever just
cuz I don't know I think I kind of just went through life. I just went
with the flow.Whenever I, whenever I needed something or whatever I would
never really go back to like God or like religion or prayers I think I
would just I just nonchalant about it. I guess you can say now. I don't
really go to people for prayers or whatever. I kind of like do it myself
because I feel like my relationship with God is kind of like you know,
with myself and then also, I guess you can say the tribe that I spend most
of my - well my mom is Fulani. But I have a lot of East African friends
or whatever. So Yeah, I have a lot of East African friends and I do hang
out with some like Fulani people but then I also have, I have a lot of I
have a diverse friend group and like the people like I just whenever I
whenever I need prayers now whatever when I go to my friends I just go to
my friends and like I said, I have a very diverse friend group. So, yeah.
Malissa Lamah 3:23
So let me see. So the next one is kind of about your tribe again. Do you
think your cultures/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Dienabou M'boup 3:33
Personally for me? no, cuz I don't let it. But generally, yes And a lot of
like things like when talking about like marriage when talking about like,
just like the way that you're supposed to just be period. Yes, like, for
like, I guess you can say is like islamically like or like even Culturally
like back home like this is the time that like we usually I guess you can
say are like talking about marriage and all that other stuff right? And
but like whenever sometimes like when I bring my mom when I when I'm like
Oh mom I'm talking to this guy she's like Where is he from? I'm like he's
not from any of our own. She's like, well or whatever and I'm just like,
and then but like I remember when I would ask her before she'd be like, as
long as he's Muslim and he's a practicing Muslim and all of this but then
like (indecipherable) the light comes out when when the when reality hits
when I actually bring someone to her but I guess you can say like, just in
like different things like that. For my family. We don't really let it
because like, we're more on the religious side. Obviously, there's like,
the culture and there's tradition. So like, like, another thing is like in
Islam We're not supposed to do superstition- superstition, period. But in
our culture, there's a lot of superstition, so much superstition. And my
mom, like she's gotten to the point where she hates it, but then it's
like, but then it's like it's like, she, what am I trying to say?It's
like, for it's still it's still in the culture. So like I said,
personally, for me and my family, we don't let culture we have our
culture, but we do. But our priority is religion. Okay, and then culture.
Malissa Lamah
5:35
That's good. Okay. Um, this is a general question, since your family
doesn't really have your culture interfere with your religion. But do you
think there's anything that your culture/tribe that you hate? Like the
marriage thing? You know, how they just assume if their not from your
country, that they're bad is there anything that you hate from your
tribe/culture?
Dienabou M'boup 5:57
that's exactly what I hate.That. And I just hate like how like, even
though like, Islam is a big part in my family, like there's still like
those values. Like, oh yeah, you're supposed to respect obviously like, I
can respect and everything but then like it's kind of just like a mutual
you know, exchange I feel and I just feel like a lot of a lot ofparents
don't really give that I just feel like it even though like my mom she
tries her hardest to not let Islam I mean let culture get in the way of
like daily lives in Islam like she Lowkey does. And even my family back
home, like I have a lot of family back home that like I don't know that
like sometimes they see me doing stuff and I'm like, oh, why are they
doing that women shouldn't be you know, doing this or whatever and all of
a sudden, I'm just like, first of all.
Malissa Lamah 7:05
I have a good question about that too. Like feminism, but that's later on,
let's see. This is another one about like your upbringing. Did you always
study Islam? How did you grow interest into the religion? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup 7:19
No, I started in like my junior year. Because up until I started wearing
Hijab my junior year to up until junior year, I wasn't really like,
practicing. I think my mom, I think when my mom started, like my mom
started and then like, I don't, honestly, I couldn't really exactly tell
you why, but I kind of just did. I kind of just started practicing. I
started being interested in my religion. I started you know, like, I think
just like, I started it was step by step for me. It was like, Yeah, baby
steps and like, I don't know, I kind of grew into it. So I think my mom
had a big influence on it because she She started practicing but she never
started really practice. She never really practiced when she was younger
either. So, we weren't really brought up practicing. Like, like I said, we
knew were Muslim. Like we would go to like Eid prayers and everything. And
then, Like, you know, but then like, Islam wasn't really present in my
life until junior year. What was the question again?
Malissa Lamah 8:23
the other one? How did you start to grow interest?
Dienabou M'boup 8:25
Yeah, I think I just I just did Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 8:29
yeah . When did you start wearing the Hijab?
Dienabou M'boup 8:32
Yeah, Junior year. Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 8:36
Let's see. What did you start getting like used to wearing it and like
dressing modest and everything? Was there ever a transition?
Dienabou M'boup 8:43
Yes. So I remember the first day I wore my hijab. It was so scary like, it
was okay. So I lived in Blaine. And then literally the summer I moved to
Champlin Brooklyn Park. I I started wearing the hijab but then I worked.
So I started waiting in the summer and then the first day of school, I was
scared, right? I was super scared. I was like, I don't know how it's gonna
be. I don't know what I'm gonna do and My brother went to school with me
that time so he was a senior and I was a junior, but he wanted to go that
the first day of school he said he wanted to go do like open gym or
whatever i'm like? On my first day of school? He's like, so he left me
right. And I wanted to go to school with him. So like, I felt a sense so I
could feel like comforted like a sense of comfort or like, you know, like
I like feel ease or whatever. But he left me so I remembered I cried. Cuz
I was scared Yeah, I was super scared. And then I went to school and like,
it wasn't as bad as I thought at all. Like, it was like my bad. It was
like, it was it was like normal. Like, I felt like it was like I, I just
remember saying this is not even that bad like I wore it and I went
through it. That very year I like transition into like wearing like, like
more and more and more modest and like I really felt comfortable I really
was like, Look, I'm doing this I'm not doing this for anybody like, like
society nowadays, it's like you have to look a certain way you have to
conform into like society and like, all of that stuff, but I like I was
like building my relationship with God. So like, that wasn't really my
concern, like how society viewed me and everything. So I kind of was just
like, Look, I really don't care. I'm going to do what makes me and what
makes my lord happy. So that's why
Malissa Lamah 10:39
that's very good. Why was it scary? Was it because like, you felt like
people were going to talk about you? Or get bullied
Dienabou M'boup 10:45
Yeah. And it was new. So so like. I didn't know it was new for me. I
didn't know what like I was doing I just did it was just a new experience
for me. And I guess you can say yeah, like, obviously like people Don't
have like - hijab is not like viewed like in the best way it's not like so
I guess you can say that scared me and yeah
Malissa Lamah 11:12
When you started wearing when you your first day of high school right?
Dienabou M'boup 11:17
In the summer but yes. In the summer beforeMalissa Lamah 11:19
okay did you feel like anyone looked at you differently since you started
wearing it or did your relationships stay the same?
Dienabou M'boup
11:28
It was kind of weird because I moved schools And like so I kind of like
made a new group of friends but what I will say is that I definitely from
guys got a sense of respect like yeah they definitely I got a lot more
respect from guys more like I couldn't really tell you specifically but
like they were a lot more respectful when I started wearing the Hijab I
guess you can say but like my friends Like, they would ask me, like, why
are you wearing it, whatever. And I tell them and they were like, Okay,
well, like Like I said, like in high school, like your friends aren't
really like your friends. You know what I mean? Like, they're like your
group, whatever, and they let you leave and then
Malissa Lamah 12:13
Yep, that's so true. Okay, so growing up in American- in America as a
Muslim, How was it for you? What are your, like some of your positive and
negative experiences? What did you learn and how did you How has it
changed your life?
Dienabou M'boup 12:29
Okay, so growing up as a Muslim like, like I said, I never really like it
wasn't I didn't really grow up visibly as a Muslim. But like, I guess you
can say like, later when I started wearing Hijab when people visibly know
like, I personally haven't had anything like really bad happened to me.
I've heard stories like from a lot of like close friends and like people,
but personally nothing has really happened to me. But people do say things
like, oh, like there's a lot of stereotypes. When I wear the hijab, oh,
you speak English or Where are you from? And like, Did your mom make you
wear that or your dad or your brother? Or like, I remember when I worked
at JC Penney. This lady came up to me and she was just like, oh my god,
you speak she asked me a question. And then she's like, Oh my God, your
English is so like, you speaks English so well. And I was, like, my hijab,
like, automatically makes me not able to speak English or whatever. And
like, it's very, it's a lot of ignorance with the hijab, that like a lot
of microaggression I guess you can say, comes with a Hijab. But I guess
you can say like, wearing my hijab. Sometimes like, like I remember when
like, like when some quote unquote terrorist attack happens. Or like, when
like, like, or like Donald Trump. Donald Trump's election I remember like
sometimes I do feel scared wearing the hijab. So I'm just like, Look, I
need to be cautious. I need to be safe and like sometimes like my mom even
tells me She's like, Look, you're a black Muslim and you're a woman, you
especially your hijab, like you need to be careful. That's why she's kind
of like, strict on where I where she's very lenient, but she's also pretty
strict on where I go and like making sure that I'm not out too late.
Because I'm a black Muslim woman and like all these like attacks like
there's obviously there's people out there that hate me just for - like
Yes, just for the just for the hijab. So
Malissa Lamah 14:42
did you ever feel like you were living a double life This can be like your
family.
Dienabou M'boup
Hannah Montana?
Malissa Lamah
14:47
14:48
Versus Your friend group? Yes. Or like school and your daily life?
Dienabou M'boup 14:56
Not really, not really just because Not really just because I, for me like
my values like was it especially with Islam like I always like it was in
Islam like honestly is like a honesty is a big like thing. And like I
didn't really like wanna I didn't really like like with my parents and my
friend group like I didn't really like I would always tell my mom like
where I was going or all of that but I guess you can say I live a double
life when I'm talking to white people. But I don't know if there's, like,
with my hijab? Yeah, but I guess you can say like, you have to, I guess
you didn't have my hijab as a part of it, but like, because you have to
kind of like, I feel like sometimes and I shouldn't like I feel I get mad
at my Self when I do this and I shouldn't but like sometimes I feel like I
have to make them comfortable be into like show them like that i'm i'm not
a threat because automatically in their head like oh yeah you're you know
you wear hijab can be a threat or whatever so like, showing that like,
like being extra nice being like, you know, I guess that has to do with
like me being a black woman you know what I mean? So, like the stereotypes
that are put on us I have to prove those stereotypes wrong I guess you can
say
Malissa Lamah
yes.
16:28
Dienabou M'boup 16:29
So in that aspect a little bit of a double life quote unquote
Malissa Lamah 16:32
Yeah. Going along with that aspect Do you believe that like those two
identities ever affect like your daily life at all? Like with the white
people for example, do you feel like that doesn't go along with how you
are as a person. You have to fake it?
Dienabou M'boup 16:50
Yeah, like I said making people come- Making people comfortable and being
extra nice is the big is the biggest thing because like even sometimes
when I'm on the phone or whatever I'm just like I have to you know, do my
white voice or whatever now I don't want to say white voice but like, you
know like, press I don't know you know what I mean that that voice like
you have to code switch I guess you can say. And then I and then sometimes
like I remember I was making an appointment at the hospital and then when
I went there I'm like oh my god I wonder if they're going to be like oh
wow surprise.
Malissa Lamah 17:28
Is This the same person?
Dienabou M'boup 17:29
Yeah, so sometimes so yeah.
Malissa Lamah
17:32
Okay. Did you feel comfortable saying back to school? Did you feel
comfortable practicing Islam in school? Do you ever feel out of place or
was it difficult? Like, just being yourself in school?
Dienabou M'boup 17:45
I , yes, it was a little difficult just because. Just because. Just
because like, I feel like sometimes like whenever they talked about like,
ooh 9/11 Yeah, like Just other stuff. Like I even remember that, like,
sometimes I felt like I had to be that voice or like sometimes like, or
like people will look at me or whatever, it's the same thing. Like when
would they would talk about slavery being the only black person in class.
And they all look at you because oh, they're talking about slavery so
like, I guess you can say that. And I remember when there was an attack,
like, made by people who are quote, unquote Muslim. I didn't want to call
them Muslim. But um, they like, my teacher came up to me and he, he was
like, What do you think about the attacks? Because I was the only Muslim
person or whatever. Yeah. And like, that made me feel weird. And I'm like,
I don't like I don't like the fact that like, the whole, like, the whole
idea of Islam will be put on me just because like, I'll be the only Muslim
in class or like, you know,
Malissa Lamah 18:54
yeah, that's, that makes sense. I went through the same thing. I
understand what you mean by quote unquote Muslim but can you just go into
depth about what you believe is what does that mean to you?
Dienabou M'boup 19:05
Well obvious what is what is me saying quote unquote or what does Islam
mean?
Malissa Lamah 19:09
No what Does you saying quote unquote
Dienabou M'boup 19:10
Um, I guess you can say that like, obviously the media people like
tarnishing Islam's name have ruined I guess you can say Islam and what it
is people it's kind of just like the media like puts out these things that
make you fearful of Muslims and all of this other stuff and like I hate
having to speak about it but I have to at the end of the day but like I
feel like I do it all the time but like Islam is not what the media says
in like if you feel that Islam is the way the media is the media projects
it then you're just I guess you can say an ignorant person that might be
biased but it's it's it's just a Ignorance because you don't want to look
into you're not looking into what Islam is like Islam values like like I
feel like this is so overused but like one when when if you kill a person
it's as if you kill the Prophet I think said it but if you kill a person
is as if you kill all of humanity and if you actually I don't quote me I
don't know where it's from Islam it's in the Quran and if you help one
person as if you save a life it's as if you save a whole humanity and then
people bring up light like text like in the Quran it says, oh, because
there are texts in the Quran that say oh what does it kill them where you
find them and that text with the Quran? It the Quran didn't not come down
In one` book it came as parts and certain certain whatchamacallit like
certain certain at like certain instances certain time not it's in the
same time period but like over the course of like I think it was like 25
years yeah yep 25 years up until the from the time that Prophet got his
revelation to the time when he died the Quran like came in pieces and then
it was put together so like different times were different verses came
down where it was needed. So that verse specifically was and also with the
Quran and you have to the Quran you can't take one verse and be like okay
that's what it means you can't take it as face value. That's why in Islam
it says seek knowledge. Islam says seek knowledge Islam says read like,
like learn like the importance of knowledge is there. So is important to
learn why the verses the certain verses came down Why can't why why was
there so like, that verse was like for for they were in war and like they
were being persecuted they were being. So there's a lot of context to it.
You can't take one verse and then twist it. It's like twisting someone's
word you can't take so you can't take like from a speech and then take one
you know one quote from a speech and then like, you're going to hear the
whole speech especially like a verse like that.
Malissa Lamah 22:30
Okay Do you believe that from what you just said, Do you believe that's
why Islam is looked in a negative way because of people just
misinterpreting the texts
Dienabou M'boup 22:42
yeah 100% the media I honestly don't know I couldn't tell you why. I guess
you can say it's cause because people are minorities and like, I don't
know. It's a I don't know honestly don't know why but like, obviously
people, they don't want us to be great, they don't want Muslims to be
great I don't know so obviously there's going to be those those haters
there's going to be those like if the media Yeah, ignorant people if the
media makes it puts Islam into a certain light, obviously people are going
to believe it. Yeah. If the only way that people are learning from Islam
is Fox News or like, see it, you know?Then obviously you're gonna be
you're gonna be ignorant you're gonna be you know,
Malissa Lamah 23:26
yeah, cuz media does play a big part when it comes to situations like this
Okay, so back to life. One thing I had an issue growing up with was my
experience with like, African Americans versus Africans. I really want to
touch upon that. Although we're both like black
Dienabou M'boup
and black.
23:47
Malissa Lamah 23:48
Yeah. both black and some of them are Muslim. so we both Muslim. Why is it
that we aren't able to like coexist all the time with black americans?
Dienabou M'boup 23:55
That is a good question. I think that's just that is a very good question.
I think that's just like, people. It's ignorance and like, even like, even
like our very own parents be saying, like, and it is all sad. And even
sometimes we fall into it too. But it's kind of just like, I think that's
just like a sense of like, we're comfortable with our own culture, and we
think we're better. It's just like, it's definitely a culture thing. Like,
that's why that's where tribal tribalism comes from. That's where racism
is from. It's just I think, I guess you can say people thinking that
they're better than a certain type of, you know, certain yeah
Malissa Lamah 24:38
so yeah, people just thinking that they're better and everything. Did you
ever experience like, bullying like, I don't know, for for me personally.
Reason why growing up. I didn't like black Americans was because I used to
get bullied by them a lot. And I felt like at my elementary school, they
should have been my friends since we're both black. Yeah. They used to
call me African booty scratcher.
Dienabou M'boup
Yeah. Same Same
24:59
Malissa Lamah 25:00
Did you ever have? Yeah, Have you ever been situation like that or
anything else that made you to not like, not like them or think
differently of them.
Dienabou M'boup 25:08
Not even not like them. But like, obviously like, I remember I would have
friends. I'd be like, Oh yeah, I'm not African. I'm like black American.
I'm not African. I'm black or whatever. Now that will obviously like pissn
me off. But like, I guess you can say me wearing the hijab. Like it's
different because people automatically associate hijab with Somali. So I
get called Somali a lot and it pisses me off. And I remember one time I
was at, I was at I was at my community I was at North Hennepin. And they
had like this African they had like this club thing and the African
African club table there were the club was tabling, right. The African
table was playing African music, me or West African music me I'm obviously
what from West Africa, yeah. This Liberian girl told me I forgot what I
said. And she said, You're not West African. And I was like, holdup,
holdup Back up First of all Senegal is even more West than Liberia.
Senegal is even more Guinea is even more West than Liberia? How can you
tell me just because of my Hijab? Yeah, that I'm not that I'm West
African. So that was really, it really annoyed me that like, my West
African identity was being erased because, yes, because of my hijab, but
even but I am because of my hijab it's because of her ignorance, you know?
And like, yeah, that really pissed me off. What else? I'm, like I said,
I've had a lot of instances where people are like, oh, Are you Somali? Are
you? Are you like West Africans can't be Muslim or wear hijab or whatever.
I remember my cousin even told me oh yeah you dress like a somali or
whatever, I'm like man, I just wear my hijab and I cover okay.
Malissa Lamah 26:29
I'm, just living life. But yeah, that's people can be very ignorant when
they see like, a lot of people when they see the hijab they just associate
with Somalia or East Africans in general which is they change that
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
Malissa Lamah
27:24
27:24
But let's see next question. Does the culture division affect your life?
Oh, okay, so this is connecting back to the black versus black question.
Does this cultural division affect your life any shape or form like do you
feel like because you're West African you can't hang out with these type
of people. These are people don't want to be friends with you because
you're West African
Dienabou M'boup 27:48
sometimes, black Americans sometimes just because I don't know. I feel
like I have to act a certain way or whatever and like it's annoying
because it's just annoying because he is like, you can't be like who you
are. But then like, honestly, I'm a I'm a friendly person. I don't care
who you are, regardless of your race where you're from anything.
Malissa Lamah 28:15
Okay, so now we just continue up the first part of this next question is,
have you had any bad experience or been targeted for being African and/or
Muslim? This can be like stereotypes or micro aggressions at all.
Dienabou M'boup 28:31
like, I've just, like I said, I haven't experienced like, anything bad.
Yeah, but like, I I'll microaggressions I go through it every day. Like I
said, people thinking that I people think that I don't know how to speak
English, or like people like, like, in class, people mistaking me for
like, another hijabi or like, you know, so like, yeah, and people just
asking me like, stupid question. Seems like me being African or whatever.
Have you ever seen a lion? I think every I think every African has
experienced this
Malissa Lamah
Yeah I have,
29:10
Dienabou M'boup 29:11
or like everyone overcome continent of Africa that has moved here. people
asking me if I speak African people asking me if I know another African so
I guess you can say my microaggression I've had a lot more microaggression
on me being African once I know that I'm African or whatever. Yeah. But
um, me being a hijabi people thinking that I don't speak English. I like
(indecipherable) If people I remember. I remember. This girl asked me
She's like, so why do you wear that? Does your dad make you wear it or
whatever? I like, you know, they just asked me like, specifically if my
dad makes me Me, me makes me wear it or whatever. And I'm like,yeah, and
like, Yeah.
Malissa Lamah 29:54
Why do you think like they think that way. What do you think that people
ask you about that?
Dienabou M'boup 29:57
Like I said stereotypes? There's a stereotype That's been put on Islam the
stereotypes that have been Yeah, just just stereotypes Really That's
literally what it is. From the media from. Yeah, media.
Malissa Lamah
30:16
Oh Media, How does your family feel about once again black Americans or
like not your from your tribe? Do they dislike them? Do they like them? Or
do they just not care?
Dienabou M'boup 30:28
They don't care and my parents are very family friendly. Like, my my
brother isn't like hangs out with alot of East Africans, like all his
friends are East Africans. I think he's eventually gonna marry an East
African. I know right. And then, also, like for me, like I said, I was
saying before before my mom called like, I'm a very friendly person. Like,
if you come if you come to me and you're cool or whatever, I will be cool
with you. If you expect you if you respect that fact that I wear a hijab
if you respect that I'm Muslim if you respect that like like you just
respect me and I don't like conflict i'm not i'm not gonna I'm not going
to like not like you because you're a certain race
Malissa Lamah
yeah
31:16
Dienabou M'boup 31:18
sometimes I do sometimes I am that way with some like non POC yeah or
whatever and just because they made me kind of uncomfortable but like
other than that like I like I'm friendly but like so like i like i said i
have a very diverse friend group I have friends from our from Asian
friends likes like Southern South Asian friends. I have East African
friends I have West African friends. I have South American friends I have
like friends all over.
Malissa Lamah 31:48
Yeah, it's good to have a diverse friend group
Dienabou M'boup 31:50
Yeah. So if you accept me, I'll accept you.
Malissa Lamah 31:53
Okay. Let's see from your, friend group Have you learned anything about
them that really interests you at all?
Dienabou M'boup 32:01
like, I guess you say like learning for me. I really like learning other
cultures. That's why in Global Studies that's why My major is Global
studies more global health but like, it's pretty interesting like learning
like, because my friends a lot of my friends are more Ethiopian then so I
have a lot of Ethiopian friends and learning like just their culture, how
they do their weddings I've been I've been to like a lot of East or Oromo
Ethiopian red-weddings. Just seeing how they do it, seeing how seeing the
similarities and like how we do it, seeing how they practice Islam, seeing
how just seeing all of that is really really cool. yeah, yeah,
Malissa Lamah 32:42
okay. Do you think that culture makes us important in life?
Dienabou M'boup
32:45
Yeah. 100% because it makes you very, it makes you an open minded person.
It makes you it just makes you just, I guess you could say yeah, makes you
more open minded and not ignorant. I think it's really important to learn
other people's cultures. And it gives a sense of understanding it takes
away arrogance of like your own culture.
Unknown Speaker 33:11
Yeah. Okay. Let's see.
Malissa Lamah 33:15
Do you know any from on top of your head Do you know any differences
between Islam now and Islam from like previous generations? So like, let's
talk about like teenagers how we act now and how you think our parents
acted when they were teenagers?
Dienabou M'boup 33:30
Ooooh. Okay, so I think it's different for like, I don't know how it is
for like East Africans, but like West Africa. I think like I said. I don't
know it's kind of that's it's kind of this kind of a hard question just
because a lot of our parents didn't really even especially my friends.
They didn't try. Like they obviously their parents were like religious
like my grandfather. Both grandfathers are really religious and like, They
both they both like value Islam, but my parents grew up, they grew up in
like a culture where like, we went out they had fun. You know, like when
you're young, you want to have fun. You want to experience things. And
like, and it's also different to it from like Guinea and Senegal, because
I guess you can say Guinea is a less religious country Senegal, like
Senegal like Islam is a really big part.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
34:24
Dienabou M'boup 34:25
it's a it has a bigger I guess you can say presence than it does in
Guinea. So I guess you can say the way that they grew up was kind of
different. So they had it, like they had their values, like the Islamic
values, but I guess you could say their actions kind of, I guess you could
say contradict the values, I guess.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
34:41
Dienabou M'boup 34:41
But like they had it held an importance and I think that was, I guess you
could say I think that's for both of them. Like, I guess you can say now,
it's kind of the same but I think like with the rise of like, atheism, and
like philosophy and all that, I guess you can say that's why it's
different now.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
Dienabou M'boup
34:57
34:57
like a lot of different ideals and like Different ways of thinking and
all of that. And I think that also the way that they grew up like they
grew up in a in a society where like Islam was there and like they knew
that Islam was there even though they didn't practice they knew the
importance of Islam, but I guess you can say here the ideal is that like
you're kind of a free thinker and they see like a lot of like society. I'm
not gonna say a lot of society doesn't agree with Islam but a lot of I
guess you can say that I can I guess you can say that. Islam is like like
I guess like stuff that I guess you can say don't agree with Islam is like
a glorified and like beautified I guess you can say like drinking smoking,
like it's big, like, a lot of people do it. So like, they're obviously
going to question and they were like, why doesn't my religion do this? You
know what I mean? So, yeah, I guess you could say that aspect is there.
Malissa Lamah 36:00
Okay, talking about drinking and smoking and all of that that that's a
great input because next question is also about it, have you seen like
changes of I learned this in class on campus versus at home? A lot of kids
in Islam when they move on campus, they have this sense of freedom and
they start acting
(incoherent)
differently. They were the hijab, but it's still party every night and
drink. So have you seen that at all? Like, since you started college
Dienabou M'boup 36:28
for me, no, yeah, because I before college, I had, I started practicing
and I like my parent- even though like my mom had an influence on me
practicing for me my values and everything. I feared God than I fear my
more than I fear my mom like so those obviously like I'm like, my mom is
obviously like I'm not perfect. I still do stuff but then what I'm saying
is like I for for me from the get go. I didn't want to Dorm. Cause I knew
that I didn't want to be around like, all that, honestly, it would be a
fun experience. Like when I was younger Oh my God, I wanted to dorm. But I
was just like, Look, I'm not trying to be around influence because I know
mys`elf and I know I'm, I'm a very influence, I can get very influenced.
I'm not a person that like, you know, I'm very success- susceptible I
guess you can say to peer pressure and all of that. So like, I'm not
staying on campus. For me, like I said, For me personally, but I know so
many people that have those went wild when they got their freedom. Yeah,
I'm here like, my parents and I here so guess what? But for me, it's not
even that my parents are not here. It's like, God is always watching me
you know mean and that's what scares me. You know what I mean? So,
Malissa Lamah 37:50
yeah, that is a big issue. I've noticed that too, in college that a lot of
people just have that sense of freedom
Dienabou M'boup 37:55
go wild, because and it's cuz and it's because and
it on the parents just because the parents kind of
I guess you can say like, if you don't do this, if
mad or if they don't really teach you, why are you
I also Do kind of blame
blame like, made Islam,
you do this God will be
practicing? They don't
teach you. Like, why is the importance of Islam in people's life they just
teach you this is haram. This is haram this is not haram. You know what I
mean? Like, and the word Haram is thrown around like, so, you know, like,
I don't know. So all of that, I guess you can say and then. Yeah, I forgot
what I was going to say, so. Yeah,
Malissa Lamah 38:37
yeah. Parents don't teach like they just teach this surface level, they
don't into depth
Dienabou M'boup 38:41
surface level and then when, they exactly and then when they get to, when
they get to college, they're like, they. So they fear their parents more
then when they do that. They fear their parents more than they fear God
and they didn't really build that relationship that was needed when they
were younger, so they could like have those morals and have those like
boundaries when they get to college. So they're just like, Look, my mom's
not here. I'm not about to get in trouble or whatever, cuz they associated
like when I do something back when I do- when I did something back then I
got in trouble with my parents I didn't see anything or God or whatever,
you know. So then likely Yeah, now they're like, Look, I'm gonna do this.
You know?
Malissa Lamah 39:24
Yeah. Okay, so let me see this is going back to like West Africans and
East Africans. Do you feel like West African Muslims and East Africa
Muslims and any other like, type of people lack connection?
Dienabou M'boup 39:43
Sometimes Yes. But like I said, a lot of my friends are, yeah, East
African. But like, one thing is like that, like sometimes that like, I
just feel like people forget. I just don't like the erasure of Islam, the
presence of Islam in West Africa, like there are a lot of Muslims in West
Africa and it's annoying because like I said, people question if people
have been asked if I converted, I've been asked if, and like I said, it's
like, microaggression it's just like, it's irritating. No hearing that
constantly hearing all of that. It's like, when people don't when people
don't realize that, like, they're like, you're not the only muslim in the
world, You're not the only Muslim country in the world, you know, I mean,
like, most of us, Guinea and my Guinea and Senegal, Guinea is a, I think,
like 90-80 something 87% Muslim and Senegal and 90, like a 2% Muslim
country, like, I probably am, like, really off on those numbers, but it's
in those percentiles, like it's really high in both countries. The
presence of Islam, so.
Malissa Lamah 40:58
Okay. Have you ever felt tempted or wanted, like to do something, but you
can't because of your religion?
Dienabou M'boup 41:05
Yes, but that's part I guess you can say that. For me. I know that's part
of the religion. Like I know that's part I like
Malissa Lamah
41:12
temptations yeah
Dienabou M'boup 41:13
Yeah, temptations like obviously like, say you're on a on a diet or
whatever, like you're obviously gonna be tempted to do, you know, just
because I'm tempted to do something doesn't mean is good for me like
there's a quote in a Islam just because just because you want something
doesn't mean it's good, or something that you want might not be good for
you.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah,
41:13
Dienabou M'boup 41:32
and something that you don't want might be what's good for you. So like,
I'm not so it doesn't really bother me like obviously like sometimes like
when I'd be like, Oh, I want to do like my hair or whatever I want to do
like, you know, like I used to wear I used to wear a lot of weave girl.
And I tell you I when I say I miss it,
Malissa Lamah
ooh,
41:51
Dienabou M'boup 41:51
I miss it. I miss it. Yeah, so like obviously that and like, I guess you
can say not like major things like Oh, and obviously like, not like major
things like smoking and drinking like those stuff never even back then
when I didn't practice I thought it was disgusting. Yeah, even though it's
all around me I thought it was disgusting. And I thank God because like I
said, I'm a very influential person, like if I was even started so I guess
to say to say all of that. So, for me, it wasn't really that big of a deal
that I that I was tempted because I knew like, I know that I'm being re-.
I'm being re- in Islam, you're rewarded for for something. So say you want
to do like, say a sin like you're rewarded for not doing the sin that you
wanted to do.
Malissa Lamah 42:43
Yeah, thats true.
Dienabou M'boup 42:44
That's why I really didn't trip about it
Malissa Lamah 42:47
Okay, next one. Did you ever want to take your hijab off or not want to
keep it on? Or why didn't you take it off?
Dienabou M'boup 42:56
Very briefly. Just because, I'm sorry the sun is in my face. Very briefly
just because like I said, having certain hairstyle like, Oh, yeah Ugh I
want it I wish I can get you know like 30 inches you know 40 whatever, all
of that, like, I wish it but then like, what helped me what let me what
had me what helped me keep it on is like, my love for God and like knowing
that like for me with Islam I just I know that the world hasn't done me
the world hasn't been the best to me is like the world is very corrupt
there's a lot of like chaos society is not the best and so I know that
like if there's for me it's like if, like if I can't if I can't if society
and all this stuff won't make me happy. Like I know truly in I've
experienced that like, for me, God has made me really happy. Like,
whenever I've talked to him whenever I pray whenever I do all of that,
like I feel happy when I like, practice. So like, I know that like,
whenever if I took my hijab off or if I like did this then it would just
be temporary. Yes. That's what it was for me.
Malissa Lamah 44:20
That's true. Okay. And your opinion does Islam have room for feminism and
LGBTQI?
Dienabou M'boup 44:30
Okay so a two part question.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
44:32
Dienabou M'boup 44:32
Um, first part feminism. 100%. Yeah, I think feminism today is very like
skewed. I think skewed as a word. I think feminism today. The reason why
is because feminism today is like, you have choice to do what you want to
do. And being oppressed. One First of all, Islam came and this is another
topic that I hate talking about because I feel like I have to prove to
people Yeah, but Islam came down in a time where like, women had no rights
at all like they were being buried alive. They had no rights to
inheritance. They were all of that right? But then Islam came down and
said women have rights women, you know what I mean? There's a whole
there's a whole chapter in the Quran, called the surah, the third, the
third chapter? I think if I'm not mistaken, second or third chapter the
Quran is is called Surah Nisa. And that's Surah of the women. Yeah, the
whole chapter or whatever. So like, there's a whole and that's a really
long one it's long, but um, that and like also. What was I saying, also I
feel like feminism today is like, take off your hijab, but in reality
feminism is for is-Feminism really was for you to have a choice for you to
do what you want me I choose to wear my hijab. So why can't I choose to
wear my hijab? Why does me taking off my clothes? Or I like wearing less
than less. That's what feminism you know, like free the nipple or
whatever, like, why are you? Why are you at the end of the day society
wants you to wear less and less clothes at the end of the day at the end
of the day. So who's really conforming to society? Who's really being a
feminist and taking their stand and stand for their rights and who they
want to be in? who they are? I guess you can say, yeah. Oh, and LGBTQ?
Malissa Lamah 46:43
Yeah, but let's talk about the feminism. I read in class. I didn't even
think about this but we read about how some people actually, it's a,
what's the word? I don't know the word right now, but some people actually
argue about having female Imams and I actually never crossed My mind
because I'm so used to having a male imam in our culture.
Dienabou M'boup
Uh huh.
47:03
Malissa Lamah 47:04
So what do you think? Like what's your stand on that? Do you think female
imams are allowed?
Dienabou M'boup 47:07
I've never been asked that question?
Malissa Lamah 47:08
Yeah, I never thought of that.
Dienabou M'boup 47:11
Um, I've obviously I've never been asked that question personally but I'm
obviously I've had conversations about it and I guess you can say like, a
like in a Islam. Like, I don't want to answer this question. In Islam I
guess you can say like theres roles. Yeah, you guess I guess you can say
and I guess you could say the role of the male is like, you know what I
mean, like that's how Allah made it. Yeah, I guess you can say something
like
Malissa Lamah 47:40
It's just like that. Yeah. Yeah. So let's talk about this Islam have room
for LG for LGBTQ
Dienabou M'boup 47:47
Oh, and back. Can I actually.
Malissa Lamah 47:49
Yeah finish it
Dienabou M'boup 47:49
So for that question too? I there's also I feel like with that people,
people have so much like Okay with that, I think that has a lot to do with
okay now I'm hot that has a lot to do with, like equality, we went well
over well over I know right? That has a lot to do with like equality and
everything and Islam at the end of the day like Islam like men and women
are created equal. They're created equal as in like, if you do a good
deed, you'll get rewarded the same. It's not like, oh, you're a woman,
you're not gonna, you're, you're a woman, like, whatever. So there's
things that men, there's things that only women get rewarded for it. And
there's things that only men get rewarded for. And that has a lot to do
with our biology. Like, women, we get we have, we have children, women, we
get our periods, women, you know what I mean? There's different things and
there's different rules. That doesn't mean that Allah doesn't view us. Or
God doesn't view us in a different way. You know what I mean, in different
positions, obviously women, it's important for women to go get educated.
It's important for men to get educated. It's important for, like, at the
end of the day, there's rules that Allah set out in that like that. Like
there's obviously there's there's differences, but we're still equal.
Malissa Lamah 49:18
Yes, understandable. Okay, now, does Islam have room for LGBTQ? Yeah.
Dienabou M'boup
49:24
So for Muslims, obviously in Islam? It's not really it's loo- it. I don't
want to say it's looked down upon
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
49:36
Dienabou M'boup 49:36
It is looked down upon, and I don't even want to sugarcoat it. It is
looked down upon but that's Islam's belief at the end of the day. Islam
doesn't say that we can go terrorizes people bash these people. kill these
people like that is away from it that Islam says lankum de-Theres in a
Surah and I forgot. I think is -Its a Surah I'm blanking out but Lakum
Deenukum Waliya Deen, that means your religion is for you. My religion is
for me. Yeah. So basically you your belief is for you. And my belief is
for me, right? So, I'm gonna respect you. Right? I'm going to respect you
and what you do. I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna whatchamacallit I'm not
gonna hate you for what you do. It's like drinking. I'm not say, I don't
like I'm not going to talk to you because you drink. Yeah, I'm not gonna
say because you do this, this and this. If you're like, just as you have
your belief, I have mine. I'm not asking you to pray five times a day. I'm
not asking you to believe in Islam. You know what I mean? Imma do me and
you do you you know what I mean?
Malissa Lamah 50:49
Okay, so last question. Now that you're grown up and understand Islam
better, what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life for you?
Dienabou M'boup 50:56
100% 100% obviously I have so for me Islam has Islam has - plays a big
role in the way in who I am. And that's way that's how Islam should be, I
guess you can say. But for me, it definitely has a big role. It definitely
plays a big role in who I am and like my daily things like sometimes like
I have to like find out where I need at work- place I can eat, I need to
pray, there's some aspects where I need to like, be careful about where I
need to eat. There's like different things that I need to do. So like 100%
it controls who I am and not control. That's such a bad word. That's a bad
word, but no, it influences who I am and I try to be the best muslim that
I can be. I try to be the best person that I can be. What was- What waswhat was say that question one more time?
Malissa Lamah 51:55
Let me see it was now that you've grown up and understand Islam better
what is Islam to you now? And is it a way of life?
Dienabou M'boup 52:03
Yes, it's definitely a way of life because like Islam, like in the Quran
says do this, do this or do this, or whatever says Be like this Be patient
be be kind be you know, what I mean yeah they smile and all of that so
obviously I try to do those things and like, because honestly like I feel
like Islam like Islam like it's such a beautiful religion and like when I
see like people that are like devout in Islam,
Malissa Lamah
yeah
52:31
Dienabou M'boup 52:32
They are the they're the best people that I know, the best people that I
know. And like there's obviously like good people who are not Muslim, or
whatever, but then like, for me, the best people who I know and like I
wish more common like I just see like, you can just see like in the corner
and it just tells you it just literally the Qur'an is like a book to like,
the way you should live your life.So I guess you can say, that was a weird
answer, but
Malissa Lamah 53:02
it's good. You're doing good. Okay, so we're basically done with other
questions. Do you have any questions for me at all?
Dienabou M'boup 53:10
How are you liking the class?
Malissa Lamah 53:11
It's good, It's really good class. It's fun. I have to finish this and
give a presentation about it. Okay, I'm so glad you could help me. Thank
you so much. And yeah, that's it. Yay.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Ruhel Islam Muslims in Minnesota Interview
Fri, 4/1 7:53PM • 1:31:22
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, food, community, growing, called, america, sylhet, pandemic, restaurant, bangla, area,
bangladesh, minnesota, problem, turmeric, muslim, fish, bangladeshi, culture, burned
SPEAKERS
Ruhel Islam, Mah... Show more
Ruhel Islam Muslims in Minnesota Interview
Fri, 4/1 7:53PM • 1:31:22
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, food, community, growing, called, america, sylhet, pandemic, restaurant, bangla, area,
bangladesh, minnesota, problem, turmeric, muslim, fish, bangladeshi, culture, burned
SPEAKERS
Ruhel Islam, Maheen Zaman, Emily
Emily 00:00
All right. Today is Friday, April 1 2022. I'm Emily from Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I'm here with Professor Maheen Zaman of the history department doing an oral history interview on
Ruhel Islam on Zoom. This interview is for the Muslims in Minnesota project. So my first question for
you Ruhel, is where and in which year you were born and can you tell us a little bit about what it was
like growing up in Bangladesh?
Ruhel Islam 00:34
Yes, I was born in a village called Bahar Mardan in Bangladesh. Which is the called Sylhet previously
Assam were part of the you know Assam. Assam is very famous for tea garden and its a lot of tea
garden. so from then 1976 October 1. When I was growing up, you know I grew up in a closed-loop
food system which is opposed to some, like a so it's like a joint family; happy everyone celebrating each
other you know my mom use to cook food so all people come eat holiday or I. one of the most
memorable stuff like when I was probably eight years old and Bangladesh was almost under the water
1988 flood and whole town was under the water or our village was there under the water, was hosting a
lot of other people from the town so okay, why? because we had a like a closed loop for system we
grew up we don't depend on transportation for our food so this is what culture I grew up in food is very
food always bring people together anything any celebration about the food even some people die we
celebrate with the food you know like these how food is very important for you know for us whenever
we're growing up it's very important Yeah,
Maheen Zaman 02:17
the same flood our first floor was flooded it did were to take a local little boat to go enough distance the
dendritic Orisha to go to school but yes they still in the water but we didn't have all the food the
catabolic I used to come to us and sell it the first floor because we couldn't go anywhere all the whole
city was underwater Dhaka yet wow how large was your family? And did you move around within Sylhet
or were you always in like our we have the name movie buzzer all the time in New York City a lot of
people from movie buzzer is that close to where you were?
-1-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Ruhel Islam 02:57
Yeah yeah very close to the town Bahar Mardan is very famous for a lot of other reason already lead by
example for whole district whole Sylhet terms of either leading and the politics leading and you know,
any revolutionary staff in all without someone for village for familiar was no like a part of it. But yes, I
moved in a Sylhet again and I go around you know, I when I will say what is the childhood memories a
lot of memories like a very happy that's brings you he cannot tell story again. And again. It's too much
stuff to say. The Flood was important because when I see people come together, have conversation
and dialogue. And that time 1988, our elder, Hindu, Muslim, all we came together anything we all work
together shoulder to shoulder and they're talking about climate change. Just happened I was scared.
They said I heard this Bangladesh will go under the water you know, these are the story they taught
long time ago. And now you know science telling like a sea sea level rising up, you know, but this is
what people know long time ago. And that's why you know a lot of people out of country a lot of people
is the climate refugees. A lot of people displaced their, from their hometown or under the water they
went to Dhaka. Dhaka like a 16 17 million people. And again, if you think about what is experience I
wake up here in the morning I say thanks to Allah hamdulillah thanks god I'm here because no matter
what you know, we wake up and thinking what we can do make it better for other people you know,
because our action impact other people life. And you should think that way sometime you know, I
always like talk to I'm in the community like a we, when I first came to Minnesota, I came with as
stranger, me and my brother, then we build community, we are no more stranger anymore. So these
are we will come to why? Because what you see around here that's a reflection of my native culture. My
growing up with like a giant family culture I grew up in a community and growing up in a lot of sisters,
we grow a lot of sisters, you know, we are two brothers, and all five sisters and cousins, all this is like a
best thing like a you. There's a we care about each other care about art. And also, you know, whenever
I was little boy my mom is to teach us, like, you know, when we go play outside or maybe hit that tree or
try to make digging for unreason, on the soil, this is a no you have to make sure that treat the way used
to be treated treat your soil right, your plants, right, these are helping, you know, so Islam, when we're
growing up, you know, we didn't learn from the book from our community can come together, any
problem will come together, have conversation and dialogue and solve the problem. And that's the
culture you know, I grew up in I bringing me here. And I'll tell you, when I become a US citizen. During
the oath ceremony, life changing and other stuff, jazz said, We want you to bring your culture don't
forget your culture. That was around 2008. And after that, what do you see here? You know, it's opens
up like I have my license in a telling a Bangla guy gotta bring your culture means good, okay, what is it
my culture, the food culture, I just share with you, and in both this culture, and we build a community for
last 12 years, that in Yes, in this Longfellow area, and from our experience growing up in, in culture, or
under a mother in leadership, so we learn a lot of things and they help us now lead by example, you
know, hear that those those teaching, helping us anyway, go, you know, just bring it be who you are.
And just, you know, and of course, anything you have to have a dream. Everyone wants to come to
America, that was kind of American dream. And I was inspired by so many other stuff. Another thing
like watching the 18, fall guy, the MacGyver X flies, you know, go culprit get caught America, you know,
that was like, oh, man, maybe you get justice. Maybe 100 years later, we get justice in America, that
was we are you know, thinking forward, the oh, we go America freedom, like a freedom of speech, we
don't really get everything. And another thing is the economic reason to one of my main reason to I
decided to come to help my mom, my mom, my mother, salaam, help people, she's very spiritual in the
octave all the time. And I says in how I can, you know, support my mom to people, there's one of the,
-2-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
you know, difference I see she's to like a, you know, in our, our village, our family, our mother become
finance minister, or grandmother or mother, like all the generation mothers to become a leader or
finance minister of that family, in a decision making them like a real leader is why I remember also, you
know, my mother is to say, you have to educate yourself educated mother can create educated society
educated community that was again to me about that, and they're very spiritual lady, but they also
talking about learn, like acknowledge, like, yes, you have to learn how to deal with the data. So I'm here
you know, I'm bringing those bills and having How are we doing it through with the restaurant I had
before burned down through community work, bring people together doing a lot of unique stuff like idea
is closeable for system is a wonderful thing, you know?
Maheen Zaman 09:39
So related to the restaurant, what was your favorite food growing up in Bangladesh? In the 80s or 90s,
like growing up.
Ruhel Islam 09:50
my favorite food was actually Dal in a dal bhat. Dal is something you know, you come to curry or find
out I go anywhere, I take the dal. And dal every day and I still cry for Dal because sometimes going up
in a big familiy the dal become real soupy watery. You know, I don't like that I like that thick down like
go no dal. And I'm also cooking it here same dal. I go anywhere dal must fight that. Dal and this is what
I learned, you know, can alu bhaaji we have a Mookie something. These are like in our village growing
in our land. Potato Mookie, which is what is Mookie is English like some kind of root?
Maheen Zaman 10:38
Kochu. Kochu Kochu. Let's but they haven't been Asian stores. I just
Ruhel Islam 10:47
Yeah, I just had it today. I went through I said like the stuff we grew up with in Sylhet. And then you
know, on February stuff because sometimes when you feel sick there is a different February's tab
there's to put 512 Different kinds of spinners together. That's called Banerji or Bharata share, like and
cook together with shing match like a fish and good for your health when you don't feel good. So we
learn of medicinal food but also when we inhale it that was become favored. Oh when I get sick to get
this food you know? Because like there are some favorite stuff like this. The flavor inside those are
usually very we don't we can get I try to get those flavors sometime. But you can't get it here.
Maheen Zaman 11:44
The catfish catfish some of them
Ruhel Islam 11:45
catfish a small catfish. This is like a natural ones. So good. So dalysate dal and alu alu bhaaji Albertina
these are these are my favorite stuff and these are for the food security 1988 flood how we. There was
a food shortage. How we handle food shortage that time I see in my uncle my family, Oh everyone
growing potato everyone growing potato excuse me sir by there my son just walking everyone this is
the everyone growing potato and Mookie kochu and stuff I recording for live or just for your
assignments.
-3-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Maheen Zaman 12:37
This is just for the audio the video or
Ruhel Islam 12:39
the audio okay again yeah you know like kochu that that like a very popular stuff then you go catch fish
from your, we had a pond in the front and pond in the back. So we go catch fish when you're hungry go
catch a fish. and it 2012 by two, University of Minnesota student group over there on sustainability
hosted Oh 22 students from here every year I take some delegation last couple of years because of
Coronavirus and other problem you know in a table so they always go long okay leaving the
sustainability there. So these are these value I want to do eat here and it is why we started you know
when it comes back? Yeah, we did. Gandhi garden and other stuff.
Emily 13:27
Yeah. So going off of you said that you tried to get some ingredients for some of the food. Um, I kind of
want to hear about how the transition was coming to America because I know we don't have like the
same ingredients. The culture is slightly different. So I'd like to hear how like you said the flood kind of
motivated you to come here. I just like to hear about your coming to America story.
Ruhel Islam 13:53
Again, okay. Thank you for putting me in that track. These are Bangla people will start talking you
know, we go from one site to another site so one of the of course, you know, there is a political reason
you know economic reason. There was a political problem. When you were growing up in a watching
people striking actually political problem was enough for our country. The big problem - excuse me one
second, I'm just gonna see if I can get a kid back to your mom. Continue those story from that hacker?
Maheen Zaman 14:40
So how did you come to America? For me it was my father was in Saudi Arabia gulf war happens you
will for George Islam, it didn't work. My mother played Obi Wan and we got the visa and that's how we
came to New York. So I have this story. So we would like to know what your journey and the stories
were. The context that motivated you. Who was here to receive you? Why Minnesota because it's it is
either London or New York and I've never heard of Minnesota
Ruhel Islam 15:05
Yeah. So when I say like in my mother you know she like to apply one I want to see like, oh she have to
comply we know other people to help this to that devices you don't why should you have to ask how
go? This I tried to become self sufficient very early age. But 1996 I came to America actually right after
the political change happened, you know, and we have a too much stuff going on over there. So, I
came as a like, I got my visa, my sister got married to American businessman, you know, my brother in
law, then I got visit visa, I came, then I take this out, you know, my opportunity came, I came to New
York, New York. Then, my father said, don't come back, you know. Good you're going there because a
problem is getting worse and worse political problem. So, that time was. I decided to stay back because
of the political reason, there was no I was involved with politics. Because when I was in high school, I
participated in Lautoka government like a movement as you know, brother Mines iman knows probably
-4-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
88 A shot autocratic government and one of our student leaders got killed then you all walk out I
remember from the school and then we you know, defeated the autocratic government and then
categoric government came, but we are not freedom yet. When the country from you know, I came here
another reason to make a difference from here speak out and tell people you know, this is why we are
doing this why I'm involved in US politics to make it better in the world. We as immigrant we understand
the problems you know, any problem because one of the problem we are facing here in America, we
are survivor of those problems. Having a recent problem was Coronavirus problem we survived Dingo
fever, barely survived malaria, cholera, typhoid, chicken pox, everything you know. Then that
experience also we have watching you know how to survive from this thing then you know in then we
have it like it I'm gonna move forward to American life right now right? I mean, I'm in American life now.
Okay,
Maheen Zaman 17:44
so 1996 you're in New York, New York ok did you come here with like to be to study a lot of people
come to study
Ruhel Islam 17:52
in New York then I took right after my college actually I went to a first college and I was up my auntie
wanted me to go in the army. When I wanted to be involved in the
Maheen Zaman 18:04
Bangladeshi cadet school, Josiah shine
Ruhel Islam 18:07
Yeah Bangladeshi our first cause in Bangladesh. Yeah, then I came then I decided to stay back I
stayed back 2000. You know, till I got married I found my wife. They arranged so I got married. Then I
was not happy in New York because it's a cultural shock and first thing is first thing I feel I came in
heaven because when when I was lending every line last day of snowing happening or coming down
coming out from a track I feel like they say Heaven or something like is so good feeling. I didn't know
this I get another shock. Wow first time live snow
Emily 18:55
and then you come to Minnesota where we have more snow? Yeah,
Ruhel Islam 18:58
that I cold you know cold is actually Minnesota. I found Minnesota because I was saying like when I
came to America, I giving an apartment in Manhattan. Looks like I'm living in a jail. We call packing
buckshot. mojego like our our chicken house were bigger than their apartment. You know
Maheen Zaman 19:22
where this where Manhattan there was a north or south?
Ruhel Islam 19:26
-5-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I live in Greenwich Village area. Downtown and you know they have a nice apartment by Medina
Motion by where they are more 64th Street. Yeah, yeah, the four between second and first avenue
Fourth Street. You know first they came there for Emily's
Maheen Zaman 19:42
reference. Remember we learned about in the 20s and 30s. A lot of people from Bengal jumped ship
and they create a Bengali Muslim community in Lower East Side and some of them assimilated into
black and Puerto Rican community. But there's a mosque there. My father took me there. His first bond
the masjid and it was there NYU. Now that area is like you know, all gentrified and rich people and
people How did this mosque come about? Because well it used to be a community here. People come
in and merchant marines and ships in the 50s 60s and they live there
Ruhel Islam 20:15
yeah so you're right you know that area my grandfather in law which is first came ship from Sylhet and
he participate in the World War II, he was one of the first Bangladeshi world war two veteran, you know,
few of them came in they never got back they died here and never go back. But they were like a
generation came that brought all their my wife said people slowly slowly was able to give people bliss. I
don't know that time that something is if it's a process that time come in the border ship, okay, get a
certificate something, then is to people who say give them like a house, or I have a apartment give
anyone the $200 apartment rent, you know, $300 and a lot of people still pay the $500 rent because of
the kind of help put him in all those kind of rent control whatever it is, they still have people where is
$1,000 apartment, but they're still using like a during the war, World War, you know, lease with some
policy in New York. And then I came to Minnesota, my brother came first. I'm coming to Minnesota,
then I start. I said 10,000 city of lakes and rivers 10,000. The country I'm coming from this also country
of lake and river, the Sylhet that village of the Sylhet I mean, or high lower area, you know, so I feel like
I found my home. And South Minneapolis, people are, you know, welcoming, very welcoming, I try to
see some people you know, I do a lot, a lot of fun stuff, but I always take everything is a positive. So I
don't suffer, you know, like, there is a different kind of problem happening around the area. But I just
take it very, I'm very positive. I say no, I don't really pay attention just going to be move forward I know
what my, you know, dream is and stuff. But I remember. So, when first I opened the restaurant in 2000
and. We started 2005 actually at that small dinky dome area food court area by the University of
Minnesota, called the Tasman covenant, very insight. Then we suffer I don't wanna say suffer but there
was some news that came in that building you know those things, but they took advantage as an
immigrant that and I was new, then 2008 when I came to Longfellow area I found this place and you
know, that time was very important for me to what I'm seeing what I'm facing like a people don't trust
each other Middle East are people you know, like a Muslim or not trusted like it, people are fitting better
each other then I get time I found like, that area Longfellow area, all the peace sign everywhere. Peace
sign peace, I know why against why then I say Oh, this is how we have to bring people together. And
as I found the home and lake, river, everything, all positive stuff. Then we started restaurant fine dining
in 2008. And you know, one of the main thing to unite people and rename after Gandhiji because
Gandhiji is a leader for our you know, like in India everywhere during that time. And my grandfather,
during the Assam time, Assam fighters Buddhist time, my grandfather, you know, when Gandhi came to
our district, he was in this meeting with him. There was a inspiration. I ran about from my uncle book
when he wrote, so those are the inspiration I said, How can we this is the time How can you bring
-6-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
people together? You know, and maybe use Gandhi's name and being a, you know, like a diverse
group of people together. That time was a good idea to do this to get people together. Because
sometime you know, my name like my last name is Islam. And that time I put my PR says put Ruhelji,
you know, really Gandhiji really, that try to make the case to the community that I was stranger. That
people slowly know about my culture Oh is a Muslim guy Islamic culture was very welcoming. Then I
slowly and I share all the culture, studying, doing like a halal meat, season with kosher salt, vegetarian,
non vegetarian and vegan. I invited people when I say Everyone is welcome. It's my Imam. It's my
belief that I have to make sure that everyone is welcome. So we started inviting in a diet, come on the
same table, and have conversation and dialogue and talk about everything, you know, what do you
face. And slowly that's this is what through this restaurant to this community building thing. You know,
we build a whole community I am no more stranger.
Maheen Zaman 25:29
Did you move before or after 9-11 to Minnesota from New York?
Ruhel Islam 25:34
I moved, actually after 9-11 after 9-11.
Maheen Zaman 25:38
So you were in New York City?
Ruhel Islam 25:39
I was in I mean, I was coming back and forth from 2000 to 2005. I did not like a back and forth, I just my
brother here, I get married, I'm going to Bangladesh, my father died. My mother long sick. So when my
father says, you know, when I come, don't come back, I never got to see him again. Because he died in
Cambodia, you know, so I never able to go back I was in, I don't have a visa to go back that time
because I was in a process, you know, visa. So this is like a set barrier to sacrifice on a small team, to
water water to come here. You know, make your life be somebody and you know, not only your own
life, make the world a better place. And I found working through this restaurant, you know, was I was it
almost like a 12 years of building community to this restaurant and coming to work. And bringing culture
no more stranger. People don't afraid of me. They're not afraid of my beard anymore. They know, our
culture is wonderful. Maybe we look different, maybe, you know, we do things differently. Maybe we
pray five times. But these are not a bad thing. So I was able to make the case and people are very
welcoming about it, they will start participating. So that's why we did that. Our demo and them and I,
they collaborate them to interfaith dinner. If they're blocked by invite everyone tell everyone like a what
is iftar. Educate everyone and one thing I did first time I went to jump into that room. And I did call for
prayer Adhan. Today adhan is official in No, they're doing it. We started from there out is no did it and
everyone came pay attention sometime. Here people pay very good attention. Look at your respect.
You know, this is what I really like about even now our culture if we go after our Bangladesh in our
when we talk to people for interfaith people, they were very silently listening. They're listening like a
with respect everything this is a very wonderful thing. And there's nothing new to ask you to me
because we grew up in this kind of culture you know, Hindu Muslim, I buy extra paper go to the chai
accettare patch Salah Jai you know we do all this work together any problem we work together and this
-7-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
is what I was able to teach our share with our community here in Minneapolis I believe communities
with any sort of, you know, yeah,
Emily 28:21
um, I noticed that you're you said like you built this community and you're really involved in like
educating people. And I also noticed that you said like, your mother taught you how to like respect the
soil and nature. I'm just wondering how that journey started towards sustainability and encouraging
sustainability and how that's integrated into your restaurant as well.
Ruhel Islam 28:45
Yes, when I started a restaurant I see like a lot of ingredients shortage I see food shortage happening
because you know, food something if you deal with even know every day you can tell what's going on.
This is a first year of then what I started doing in the area gorilla gardening. I found sport drugs it's it's in
the city come sometime you know the squash vine they cut it out and then some neighbors see they
then some neighbors so then we had somebody I start conversation and dialogue about growing food,
you know, urban farming, yes, slowly started there. The first person I know then gave me a plot in the
community garden. This my first plot nearby community garden and I started growing food but for one
of the important thing I grow which is Bangla squash, so Bangla for the Bangla squash, they found
home in Minneapolis they cared now not only our big a lot of other big kid, they're growing squash. And
then we started this and also this this is like a first year garden then all our people like some another
anchors to work in so heavy they growing food so excited about you know so we learn like elder three
and intergenerational conversation intergenerational dialogue intergenerational working together
because we working with other people we learn to listen to them with a good listener something as a
young people's to move forward to make the change and but this kind of thing through gardening you
know that green hold community with a word Gandhi Mahal gardening like a strength to surprise and I
start growing cilantro and start growing green khichuri green tea then Bangla beans they never seen
those kinds of things woody you know the shaag laal Bangla beans the babies those kinds of things
then the loud shock slowly people everyone coming gathering what's going on here then I start having
when winter comes very sad because I to wrap up a routine so hard in a farmer like he continuously
you have to find ways to in back home go all around then close everything your garden Oh Michael is a
closing party again. So like every three months opening closing you know like it's that's why a lot of in
America in Minnesota a lot of people are discouraged to grow food because it's not easy. It's a sort of
labor of love and it's a lot of work but what I did the way we started like I teamwork collaborating with
different organization bring people together, it's not me and I started a important program called Food
barter economy like a casual we have a cat dog food barter economy, which is partnering with
University of Minnesota Aqua in class and other local schools good call Yeah. All local schools have
they participate in this process and we encourage them. So, I feel because in I remember in 2012 when
I was lucky enough to host a 19-23 people from Minnesota all around America from you know
sustainability class Person village in Bangladesh in my village, in our closed food system. So I said you
know, I want to do this program back here to table initiative and grow food security and up you know, I
want to create a local food reserve bank. So, I share why I told them example, this this the the way, this
student came together 2012 In June, we started and harvested 1800 pounds of vegetable from this
garden. So which this is this is now called Gandhi Mahal interfaith garden. But we went to this that 60
by 20 You know, it's big for the city but not too big for us, we grew up in the village you know, that good
-8-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
enough then soil was a bad soil, not a good soil, like it has a lot of arsenic. So we doing we take all the
soil out bring all the soil in, you know freshly then, which is weird to practice like a regenerative
agriculture. You know, back home when you grow food. I saw in our farmer and you know, our family
from then they leave some food for the soil, you know, then turned around.
Maheen Zaman 33:47
This is in Longfellow composting, the 60 by 20 plot? This is in Longfellow neighborhood?
Ruhel Islam 33:52
in Longfellow neighbor, Longfellow neighborhood in Minneapolis, South Minneapolis still had that it's
gotten to a one to twenty secondary south that south Minneapolis and it was not too far from that
restaurant, Gandhi Mahal, and I say to my wife, that was Gandhi Mahal, and garden was this site.
Maheen Zaman 34:09
And this is before the aquaponic farming the you?
Ruhel Islam 34:11
before that before the aquaponic then 2012 to 2014. In these two years, I grow food. And every year I
begin to wrap up with the bolenta when I say food barter economy, you know, I'll finish up the garden
story that 2013 We did 10 different gardens in the community we call it Bijar like a big care just
gardening for urban agriculture by Justice and anyone they care to table initiative. So that's a closed
food system so we work together with a lot of our volunteers, a lot of volunteers. it's not me. We are
leading by example with when everyone support you. When everyone gives make their hands dirty in a
big part of it. it can happen labor of love we cannot, that time is best if I had to pay 100 volunter I cannot
do any further I'll be broke. But what did what I did, I also did a food barter economy so Tim garden,
Jenny, individual farm manager from different school students, and I say wherever you grow keep the
record. Our thing is like a micro finance style we invested money in the different 10 different plots,
seedlings startup everything. Then say we had 10,000 pounds a vegetable we stockpile for our food
reserve bank for security and average every student if I spent $200 For per plot the example I'm giving
whatever money left after their food barter economy, I was giving them a check to because we are so
happy end of the holiday they get a small check. These are you You make I don't only I mean not only
volunteer because our young generation you have to encourage them in a different way. This is what
you know I learned we bring up oh find funny grow then there's a celebration. So we did this and
everyone's happy. So we've been growing local food 10,000 yearly local food in our community for our
customer. And now during the pandemic time what's really we all experience which is sense a sense of
belonging because food not coming in shortage and from my experience I changed my business model
right away which is curry in a hurry right now but I started during the pandemic time because restaurant
I said we know how to handle any pandemic because we grew up with a river of those as I mentioned
before, so why did exactly Bangla belay style spiritual sanitation which is you know, in back home in the
village I saw people get sick they quarantined people on the corner one room they put some kind of
pitball fire pit or something so anyone go in and out make sure that go over the fire so any bacteria
virus things they die you know you probably don't say Brother Javan barium Cinco village you know
they did give a children newborn baby you cannot go without those things so I remember those thing I
bought this cart they say I don't know people are taking hand sanitizer shortage this shortage that
-9-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
shortage I says no worries so I created those and ramaden the process 1-2-3 process okay, I was
ready to start community again even the dining. I closed actually we closed restaurant before governor
close because I thought this is the time let's enjoy it. I don't want any dine into coming in I raised so
before they started shutdown officially I shut down for our area and I lead by example for community
how to deal with it so we started 1-2-3 process you know 1-2-3 persons like at one place in order
online. There's a lot of we had to struggle a lot but we survived. We did it and was doing really good.
Then this George Floyd was murdered by the police and rescue we're gonna
Maheen Zaman 38:26
ask the question later but can you go back to how the aquaponic farm started because I went down
2015 spring like are did gone 2014 rebuilding at the time I remember
Ruhel Islam 38:41
2000 So that while I was sitting I said Well think about that. I I said like I started then wrapping up every
year then I said how can we do? I started meeting with the people how can we do a closed food system
I have a abundant basement, under the restaurant. I want to do indoor garden. Then you know
gardening then also in when I says back home we have upon our pond is aquaponic system. But
America we call it a aquaponic because I saw pond then we grow food by the pond. Beans squash
everything, but we don't have to never give watering then I realize this is a whole nice system here
indoor but we have a back home in our outdoor. So I showed this to the kids and we commissioned
some local youth organization commissioned to do a feasibility study for us. We hired them. We spend
a lot of money for this because sometimes it's good investment because this will become a very one of
the first in closed food looped system in the entire country according to you know some newspaper a
Star Tribune, like a aquaponic in the closed off food system and it's like a 200 step away from the
kitchen. You know, where we're growing highest ingredients like cilantro sometime in the winter is what
I was having cilantro all around Harry Potter so yeah the first time made in Minnesota Harry Potter.
Then I started growing spinach. Spinach which is longevity spinach, spinach so good for your health
and diabetics and sugar and other stuff. Then main thing is fish tilapia so here fish you know. Then I
grew up with that fish gotta like you're hungry go with the boy row go catch a fish and bring it to your
mom fresh right away there's like a best thing you can experience. And I I brought this experience to let
our customer our friends and family to the basement. Sunday I said okay, I'm gonna go catch it Bangla
style and whole process we did a few of them to educate people how to you know cook fish kick it fish
the way then you know like a healthy fish it's where some of the stuff we educate about the turmeric I
start growing turmeric in the basement didn't, it's a lot of work but I tried it's possible. But I could not
continue because it's not enough. You need a lot of space. You say 2, 3, 4 show up, even I try to grow
saffron. Saffron was popping up but never you know I never ever be able to harvest but they died
before they flower. I tried that I told student don't worry. If you don't fail you're not going to learn. Failing
is a good thing. You know, you failed and you know next time you can you can keep some directors
educational, everything in education. Then 2014 finally commissioned people 15 project was done we
did a huge thing celebration about that. And after that every year until our building burned down is to
throw our 1000 store to the basement small spill excuse me we open up for young generation to all kind
of school Primary School I mean kindergarten to college everyone's to come study on so we have a
University of St Thomas A their social entrepreneurship class they are one of the syllabus from our
about our project we did so we work with them and then they're they helped me figure out what actually
- 10 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
what I'm doing what should I call it they says after study professor to Professor put together they said
this is called fully fed community which was which is you're doing it here so it was a wonderful working
together I didn't know what is that call so I learned by working with the students and Professor every
day you learn something. Then prolific committee this is what we are doing you know COVID
Community. Everyone that means you care about soil, environment, fish, yard, chicken, goat. All part of
the aurora environment and then you know after that a lot of we have a all progressive city, all
congressmen, Democrats, everyone getting interest, also everyone coming to visit my basement. Al
Franken Tina asked me you know and they came this also help like it. Tina ask me visited when I was
building building over there to her right after our visit I got my license quick, you know, next day they
came okay. So that because there was a no code in the city about restaurant basement aquaponics. So
I just got license from you know, these are new, we are part of the new chain Okay, so I get a pay a lot
then I get only that license from DNR. DNR officer and then next project now whole city has this paper
on it the writing the letter we want to work with you to part of this process are to do so other people can
to and I say I don't want too much more crazy on this just keep it say this way we're able to do it quick
to go through your process too much. But we know how to grow fish and basement environment.
Sudden cold like a food core you harvest fish put it under the eyes go down to 40 degree under 40
degree temperature then you feel a you know this person we know this is nothing new. And especially
then I we made it Turmeric. Turmeric easy, some kind of antibacterial, antiviral it's an aromatic you
know, whatever I wanted, they call very beneficial to medicina they helps preserve and prevent that
made before in back home. There was a no trees and cooler and nothing. So how they should preserve
food with the turmeric. When it turmeric dry them remember those things? My grandma my grandma
used to?
Maheen Zaman 45:11
Yeah. And now they put the turmeric, hipsters on Instagrams on everything from ice creams to milk and
turmeric, Chai and all this right shot
Ruhel Islam 45:22
on my tablet. I can't believe like someone called me enough, my friend. Oh, can you bring it on my table
for America when you come on? Seriously? Hydroponic story. Oh
Emily 45:42
all right. Thanks so much for that. Um, have you ever worked with Minneapolis Community College on
any of the hydroponics or the three legged frog? Have you heard of those clubs? The Minneapolis
Community and Technical College they have a three legged frog sustainability club and an urban
farming club. I'm wondering if you ever got to work with them at all? MCTC? Yeah. MCTC.
Ruhel Islam 46:09
Yeah, I think I think I gave probably sounds a lot of I don't remember. Because I used to have every
intern from different college in order to help me to put all that in. There's a lot of science behind it. No.
Yeah, our experiences sometime. I mean, it's become scientific later in home, but it was hoping to
figure out those things. I think I think I did probably, right. I don't remember. But a lot of my team
member was sometimes to go to MCTC college, or some of the volunteer also. I'm sure. All right.
- 11 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Emily 46:48
I was just curious. Um, alright, the next question I have for you, I know you went over a little bit of it.
Before the hydroponic story, the change from pre pandemic versus post pandemic, if you could just go
over how that change started when the virus was coming out and then like when it finally hit here, and
then like what things you had to change for your restaurant? And then obviously, you know, your
Gandhi Mahal restaurant got burned down and how that affected you? That's kind of story.
Ruhel Islam 47:26
Yeah, I think the pandemic time I already probably mentioned some of the stuff like how we handled in
a pandemic time. So this is also I could say like our mother's teaching grandma teaching, you know,
that there was a pandemic time we did this 1-2-3 process. We changed some of our system which is
shut down for dining and only did takeout and delivery.
Maheen Zaman 48:00
so many restaurants shut down in Twin Cities and around the country because they couldn't pay the
rent. Do you rent your space? Or do you own the whole space cuz I remember Ghandi Mahal got two
eating areas and then a hall and I think the Samali school was also your property and so did you buy
land or?
Ruhel Islam 48:19
It was a like a one? Yeah, I wish to should pay rent by the sister organization you know was to own that
thing, but not too much where you're supporting in ourselves. So Gandhi Mahal the first you say the
main dining area then the kebab room. That's the children playroom area where the children and the
start aquaponics there. Next room was a community room was give it back to community to this anyone
is to come and use free of charge. You know the food meeting is always been there next door was a
Somali grocery then returning to annex office like a co working space where his Defense Organization
again 350 big movement, I mean IPL and Sierra Leone foundation spies and few other like Miss Lonnie
and then a few five different people is to use this space all about community. And then the pandemic
time actually we get a lot of support people from our our community people buying I see some people
coming in and they're buying food like three, four times more food. So when I did very good business
there pandemic type from takeout delivery. Everyone coming and buying food not only for themselves,
sometime sets up in a sense of belonging, before delivering food to their friends and relatives inside
and also we partner it there it says anyone in our area should not stay hungry. You don't have money,
no problem. I started doing this way sending food everywhere. But also those people aren't sending
food they also supporting me next time they coming, oh, I'm going to buy this. So the whole what we
generate kind of economy locally, grow food in the backyard that was our our works really helped
during the pandemic for the food shortage even though oil and stuff but you know figure out in their
head like a we are we know planned so our our support was getting from the farmers and backyard
different backyards vegetables and the stockpile in the cooler like 10,000 pounds of vegetables we
headed the stock the time when I had fish in the basement, a fish producing cilantro you know I don't
have to go out shopping in The Cup or anywhere any other place just have you know, cilantro green
chili inside. So we're doing pretty good and also government has a program that turn people pay loans
that also helps small business they help us to helping in boosting is one of the I think good help. Then I
tell other people we should do this way. And you know, again leading by example I said yes I did and
- 12 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
this way that way. Then pandemic, by the time we are handling pandemic, then murder of George
Floyd you know, created unrest in our area that was it around the corner, my daughter recorded some
when he was arrested in we are very watching Oh thing things are going and it was traumatize that
time. Because then also traumatized in a sense, because we kind of ran away from this problem like it
came here in America from Bangladesh, where we see this familiar with this kind of situation, you know,
America and Bangladesh different is America still have right to go out protest. You know, no matter
what you can protect your right to protect. In Bangladesh, we don't have those rights to third world
country, you know, they say your life will be endangered. So that was my you know, I say that to
participate in and then I see this injustice happening for all I slowly changing like I never seen even you
know, in back home, we slaughter cow and stuff, you know, we never feel like very the way they treated
put it under that, you know, I in the TV, everyone watching very traumatizing I wouldn't want it normal,
any human to enlive this way. But obviously, you know, we things happening in our area and I started I
think the first day or second day. Second day, probably so bright everywhere, you know, and the PR
guess people start shooting that and I was just traumatized for this beginning was very fun, like
everyone coming you know, participating first day, cool. Second day, I see traumatized because of
police action, you know, police start shooting. And what? and we are you know, we're lucky. And also
nobody's protecting us. You know, we came for our here in America for justice. We came for our
freedom of speech, freedom of you know, like ever everything, especially for security. And I start feeling
like very unsecure because nobody is there protecting us. And and I learn about like a injustice
happening with our native sisters and brothers, our black sisters and brothers. It's been beginning of
the history of America. You know, we learned a school Columbus discovered America. Then then when
I came to New York, I thought Native American culture in the museum now I'm living within culture. And
I feel like this is my culture. This was so close to our concert celebration. I I'm going to like a nap and
during that time I went to water celebrations and remember you can line three movement participate all
the movement with the food that time and the writer in our own eyes, you know also I see people come
together. I said when he said that belonging our native organization sisters and all that our our you
know American sister they were sisters. They all in front of the restaurant and there was a magazine
that protecting us someone poorly when minority owned business you know in the in the in the life.
They are protecting us there and we open up the door because we continue by the medic team we
opened up our an exhibition committee room put in a bed. We are close by tattooist places those kinds
of very bored right away bring the whole medic team and start treating people with amazed and
becoming a like I opened up.
Maheen Zaman 55:20
the tear gas right? put the milk in the eyes.
Ruhel Islam 55:22
tear gas yes yeah tear gas and stuff and people were crying and I said.
Maheen Zaman 55:26
We saw this in Ishka in Bangladesh we saw this issue with all the missing intaka I see that all the time
from our apartment building the army going around and trucks and shooting and people protesting and
you see that again in America it's very strange
- 13 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Ruhel Islam 55:39
really strange it was it was strange to matters but you know we know I'm sure how to that's why I was
hindered okay you know this new treatment some people very bad we send them with their Moulins you
know, a lot of teamwork when I become a doctor first time I feel like when you know taking running
running around and watching other people doing all this our community actually trained us to be deal
with or represent any situation you know in the bedtime comes and you have to represent and lead by
example not react. reaction ruin everything or you have to represent the way so that you know, very
positive way you unite people and move forward and get the things done. And that was I was very lucky
I know that I said no, that's first thing is open up the medic teams. Then what people need hungry food I
made that Khichuri dalin but Khichuri I know this is what we did in our flat time. The Khichuri something
is a Bangla soul foods a grit is like a Bangladeshi grits are to explain whether germa you know
Maheen Zaman 56:46
I make it for my kids all the time. It's it's it's another variety rice and beans but it's lentil mostly dealt with
the red lentil I put Hmong down sometimes and then rice they cook it together with you know cumin,
coriander, ginger garlic paste some you know of course turmeric lots of turmeric and you can put in
anything in it. You can make it soupy you can make it drier right its supporters would you get the
proteins from the dal and you get the starch from the rice and fibers and you have all your you know
wood vegetables in there cook it everything you need.
Ruhel Islam 57:25
if you can give some time kitar cut that's like a wonderful bedtime like outside is a cool people you know
like a little bit of wind coming so I decided to make a dal sometime some evening dal bowtsa meaning
like it this is a major breakdown down but in the kitchen at dal is something and put it in load in the cart,
out cart walking around with feeding everyone wherever you know hungry needy and food and that is
wonderful. And then I see after everyone else who come in supporting me. Okay, you know people try
to contribute you supporting your support. So this really sense of belongings you know, was there then,
of course 29, 28 You know, in the morning, I learned that my restaurant is burned down their line like
across the cloud get burned down then fire across fire, burned by crossfire and not burned by protester
people I know because of you working together is the outside world can we see a lot of kids came from
outside and they are just throwing stone and breaking windows and like if people everyone had a fun
like they are inside the jail for a long time during the Coronavirus and they had opportunity to get out
and stealing looting the liquor and these and that everything everyone is involved but this was not the
protesters. This is like outside people come in parties. We watch them when I try to talk them they
Yeah, you know oh come on. Come on, man. We are. So some people intentionally did this to divert
and we understand the gravity third world country this kind of polling we know. They want to divert.
People ask me question why what do you say? they says, you know, let my building burn just in must
be served. Because, you know, we don't divert your movement different direction that was all planned
in a divert movement? Probably I don't know. But we bill people over property, you know, it's very
important. And when the time calm, which will work together no matter what community you know,
these were really even even you know, I live in the community to visit in the community. Some of my
family Oh, leave come back. Come back over the go over there, I'm not leaving. No. Yeah, you know
how our Bangla Okay, oh, dangerous, dangerous. I'm sending you ticket come back. I said no. Oh no.
And I was embarrassed that time because you know, I so proud of that we because I said Bangladesh
- 14 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
is like a ground zero for climate change. And Minnesota Minneapolis is ground zero for movement
protest you know major protests against any you know darkness come anywhere with to stand up for
other people right you know this is what Minnesota about so proudly, then now they say oh, why you
talk our police here police killing people and all this different Bangladesh police is like you did go
personally here present on you know, have a I mean, or anyone, nobody control them. They have their
own control. But as I say you go against opposition party. So don't compare it. They're still protesting
out. Nobody put me in that jail. We still speaking out for justice. This is the real democracy here. You
get it? Oh, this never happened in Bangladesh. Oh, yeah. I mean,
Maheen Zaman 1:00:59
to give Emily a context Bangladesh developed in the early 2000s, the special police force called Rapid
Action Battalion RAP, it was under the theme BNP, but then on the other party is become like a
personal militia, to shut down any opposition. It was initially done because a lot of crime has risen in
Dhaka, and to deal with, you know, drug cartels to other kind of crime. And now they've become, you
know, a way to silence opposition and silence. The opposition party for disclosure for the archive, my
father's family from Bogra. So they have natural, tight or BMPs. I just want to reveal that nobody
accuses me of being on bias, but so a lot of Bangladeshi's were complaining to us to like, Oh, look at
your country is this and this and that is it. That's true. But again, despite all of that, there's still
possibilities to democracy that we don't have anymore in Bangladesh.
Ruhel Islam 1:01:56
Yeah, that's why I say like, I wake up, I'm blessed. I says, you know, Alhamdulillah, like, thanks to God,
you know, here, how can you make another day a better day? And
Maheen Zaman 1:02:06
like you said, it's possible because people like Martin Luther King, Jr, Malcolm X, Native American
community, Latinx community, and you know others who have pushed the country to be better. Yes.
Ruhel Islam 1:02:19
I think that I agree with from the like, you know, everyday learning, like, the civil rights movement
actually give us more right then our black brothers and native brothers, sisters, you know, more
demographic come people, sometimes tedious, like a work, you are a computer engineer or a doctor.
You know, there's a lot of, even though you know, there is a difference here, whereas, when, if anyone,
any black people cross the light or red light, the thing is a gang member or whatever it is, you know,
these are, this is mindset, this problem inside
Maheen Zaman 1:02:54
because model minority people from Asia like us, we're model minority, even though we have had wars
and crimes and violence, as much as any part of the world. But racism that's as you know, your model
minority you come here, and you're against black native and Latin X community, and then we will get
the loans the positions, but not the best ones, but but better than others. So this is divide and conquer.
We know this from South Asia, or the British to divide and conquer with the Muslims, Hindus, and how
here some people in power do the same thing. Different ethnic groups. So once it's burnt down, you
hear iit is burnt down and you're famous quote, was all over the news. I went to visit. And I was really
- 15 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
sad because the first restaurant I went to eat was Gandhi Mahal. Like, Oh, this is a Bangladeshi
restaurant. And then you see the ground, both the club and all the buildings like just all the way to the
basement. And for me, it also reminded me of the World Trade Centers when it burned down. We built
these things with steel so strong, but then fire is so destructive, right? And you think about Day of
Judgment, like the Quran doesn't want the Ramadan awesome or not the fire, it will burn everything
down. To go with arrogance and hatred. It's like a fire, it will burn everything down. So I saw that
reflecting on that day remembering the the destructiveness of anger, hatred, fire, and also the
punishment that awaits those who don't repent. So, I'm glad to hear like how did you then recover? I
know you started Curry in a Hurry, which is a famous restaurant in New York and in London. We have
the name was also but how did you plan to do it? How did you make that shift?
Ruhel Islam 1:04:38
Yeah, you know that during the pandemic time, you know, again, no, like will ever go through like this.
We are like a, God was preparing us to have Curry in a Hurry over there where they are like, it is all
started for the pandemic, because of pandemic I start Curry in a Hurry idea was Hurry, hurry, can you
come here? Like that whole idea was there pandemic it come, don't stay quick go. Slowly, slowly
cooked. Food quickly sub slowly cooked, quickly served studying the whole idea. That's why people are
coming and going. Same. It's like I said, it's kind of set in their mind. They come nobody, because a
pandemic Come 1, 2, 3 go Curry in a Hurry. That was the whole idea.
Maheen Zaman 1:05:25
Once the kitchen is burnt on, how did you find another kitchen then?
Ruhel Islam 1:05:29
this is a community came together and gave us founders this kitchen actually, this is a wonderful. One
of the brother is from, I think, somewhere in Africa and he's his wife own and his wife. He was like our
chicken tikka masala in our food. And we was looking and they were going to build your home there,
break this place in the corner and turn their own home. Then it says if you rent it, you're gonna hold it
for how many years you need, say four years rent until we will then he says okay, for four years, they
gave it rent to us. A very good price, good deal, you know, and this kitchen actually built by our
community, all all the family come together, clean these and build it for us. And they say, you know, and
I kept carrying her, you know, it's too much stuff going on and I don't know, you know, sometime, this is
a like a. Sometimes, I feel like in next two, three years, you know, I was we are hoping to put together a
feasibility study that $50 million project. So that's really like a living building first time regenerative living
building in Minneapolis replanning. I don't know how far we can go and collaboration is Pina Walls
theater you know try to collaborate and do it but now looks like no matter how much covered I do you
know investment and return of investment 50 million in I have to work all my life then I'll become
different kinds of slave to the system then resists study like this people saying in government if we need
bond money like our consultants that study the pillar of our study finishes every study saying you have
to the suggestion site to give my right to city give me I should not product realization so I am the only
one was POC on land around this area one of the person now I have to give my land to under nonprofit
you know, what are to structure this project?
Maheen Zaman 1:07:43
- 16 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
The idea is your land you will own the land.
Ruhel Islam 1:07:46
Yeah, yeah, we will not we started with the renting you know, actually I bought the restaurant $1 $1 $1
Then I turned it to a million dollar restaurant. The $1 I bought I get into the real like this is also I learned
the system if you bring a new like a new restaurant a lot of process from the government licensing stuff
then they'll say why don't you do it we'll do we'll do a little transition here. You pay $1 I paid cash one
dollar and he signed by let's rent from the other tenant then he extend that transfer the reason I had to
buy for $1 That was a good story because $1 is 10 bigger to million dollars or is $1 more is to make
difference in the whole world now we're planning to bring all together but when I did rented you know I
was right away in I thinking about like I'm paying rent every month and all given to someone that can
just gonna start saving money talking to in 2014 Actually, finally, when I did aquaponic because then
got permission the guy to this why this thinking the title and the 10 billion for clothes and then become
owner of the building again they took it when I talked to bank because tenant has arrived and I have
some good you know, I get involved and actually convinced them I called bank owner of the bank not I
don't want to talk to me I want the owner because I learned from my uncle you know, you have to just
got to the top then progress process for you. You can
Maheen Zaman 1:09:36
say for a man. Yeah. To do several money was one of the longest serving finance minister Obama this.
Ruhel Islam 1:09:46
Just yeah, that was my uncle. I know I grew up under his tutelage that's what I understand. He couldn't
hold Bangladeshi bottomless basket. To he make it this an old country enjoying this economy. Make he
called akhira Bangladesh economy he did the way system VAT other stuff countries to run it so nobody
can you know no matter how bad people Coronavirus bothers GDP is high everything doing good
because of the right policy and I see closely you know him he did agriculture way prior to agriculture,
Agriculture Food Security farming fishery, I was part of so many of this wall USA program I seen it then
he also says investing on farmer is never don't say it's a loss. This is a good investment they're
producing food is adding to our food security. So don't think is a lot is adding. So if you invested in
pharma is invested in human food for education program fourscore scholarship program. So I seen
these and some of the things are implementing here actually, this helping me those experience, you
know, entering my gardening and growing food, bring the book together, those experience really helped
me.
Emily 1:11:05
So after all of your experience from 2005, to coming here and seeing them pandemic, do you think the
state in the community is moving in the right direction? Do you think the country's making progress?
How would you say like the community is changing? Is it moving forward? Based on your observations
and experiences?
Ruhel Islam 1:11:27
Yes, you know, I'm every day you know, we learning something new, you know, something's tough, but
- 17 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Maheen Zaman 1:11:37
do you feel optimistic? You feel
Ruhel Islam 1:11:39
no mercy yet? Justice? I talk about the justice system, you know, even though we have a freedom of
speech, freedom of right. And but But here, you know, it's not, you have to prove to get justice, you
know, thing. And my experience sometime some people have privilege, they automatic. People assume
like, Oh, these are the good people. Okay, oh, people have no idea. These are the Muslim people, they
treat their human where, you know, people that they marry four times, then people sometimes like a
sound by Judge oh, maybe these that these are the, you know, a little bit of racial justice problem. I
seen every now, before I was so busy, like a building community, I didn't pay attention. I learned like a
positive move forward, move forward, still moving forward, then went on to be paying attention. I see
Oh, my God, what an injustice can happen. Especially, especially, you know, the immigrant community
actually Bangla community, male community, my example. We, I was on a restaurant actually work with
Volunteers of America, which is a halfway house, you know, people go to jail after a certain time for
reentry to the community. So I work with them in the reentry force help people get into the community.
So I face a lot of them. I like a lot of white people will be traumatized. They grew up in bed experiment,
so many I learned, I try to have to help them, give their privacy supervised, and bring them back to the
community. So rather, people get back in their community than normal. They're not people not but
people some time for small thing. This other opposition or person or other party have a lot of proof. Oh,
this is enough. But actually, this was not a real justice. I'm saying I'm trying to say and especially a lot of
immigrant people getting justice by this process, okay, under white people are different culture,
Western culture people is not going to get real justice. Because if even if, like a bit between I'm
supposed to round people, if someone a judge, maybe they have some family problem, like I said
family issues, family issues, then also they work together, right, they began to work issues. So actually,
it is a familiar problem. But they work together in the same place, you know, saying so slowly. You
know, some people will look at Oh, this is in a workplace but some people familiar on people within our
this is this. So those time, people very difficult to understand the justice to people what is really
happening, you know, people don't understand. Maybe we need to like where we are doing a lot of
educational stuff like if that don't you know you do your thing we do our thing fasting we educating
people same way we need to educate our justice system like this country married people of color
immigrants and other people. But originally I did believe like a written by the people to benefit their own
people that was you know when they did all this stuff so that's why I believe systematic change real
change to be happen based on my experience and otherwise if you can be someone very you know
that people all behind you without understanding anything sometimes you don't understand a lot of
things but we call one of the Justice problem is like we pay attention to chili a cow can eat Chili Chili,
can you guess? Why does everyone agree? What is that? Like if
Maheen Zaman 1:16:06
it was gonna be like, if a dog bites you? Do you bite the dog back? Right? Like that's the nature of the
dog you don't behave the same way as them is because it does that too.
Ruhel Islam 1:16:16
- 18 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Yeah, one of the one of the Hassan Avi writing writer he wrote this about like his ego, tried to take a
nap, yes, is here and then this guy going after Eagle why people asking him why deny their night, oh,
the eagle took my ear, you know, run run run then later someone says oh, just quite a new sees the the
O is here. But Whole day whole night he ran off there you go because you got so these are the stuff
here going on, you know sometimes. And then also in social media world, good thing and bad thing,
you know, sometimes really good staff can become bad investor become good, they change. I'm like
sometimes nervous about those things. And I'm embarrassed sometimes about what happening here in
America, you know, police to other people, and also also like a I see some kind of anti Muslim policy
some kind of even though we have a more freedom here, you know, what something is there, which is
like it any war going against very example, if you open your eyes, if you say anywhere or going against
a Muslim or Muslim against anything is become a different category, when you know when like suppose
Russia and what is called that? A crane, right? Nobody calling no one terrorist, there are bad people.
When these are like we need to understand speak out about this is very important to for the change our
young generation, how through intergenerational conversation or to learn from our elder, how do you
experience this, then these kids, they can make a difference if you only if you tell have a conversation,
not from the history, history written by the winner, he never get a real history from a book only got
booked can be a real story, you know. But there is a real story is written by because there is a whoever
when they change it back in Bangladesh, everything checking was even though Mawlana bhashani. We
had our very leader who really that their name is disappear. They're familiar is a begging, begging that
a very becoming bigger, and I can only take care of them. But people are calling themselves
something, something something, you know, this thing everywhere.
Maheen Zaman 1:19:04
The contact monitor person he was a Muslim wrestler, but also socialist and advocate of the farmers
and workers both. And he created the the People's Party only. And this didn't win in the 60s. Then he
became you know, it was taken over by somebody else. But and he's from this area of silicon, Assam
and did all this work there to give all the Black Panther Party all the power to all the people. And he
believed in that. And then a family took over that party who then claimed to be the founding father and
all these different things. So that's a contentious thing bothers you politics. But I'm so happy to hear
that, you know, you advocate for sharing storytelling between different generations. And you have
children. Your daughter became famous because she quoted you in the newspaper. And they weren't
abolish, like I've grown up there. You've grown up there but my kids too. They are American Muslim.
Bangladeshi descent how do they identify in you as well as the three identities Bangladeshi, Muslim,
and American, whereas biology means being Muslim, but here they have to separate the two. How do
you see the you know, with American history to Native Americans, but the first Muslims are black
Muslims and slaved Muslims. And then we have other Muslims right and the weekend was immigrants.
How do those identities Connect? Being Muslim being American being moms for you? And for the next
generation like in your children, what do you envision what do you think will happen for your family in
the future in Minnesota? Because we have a huge Muslim community now me coming on to Somali
refugees has changed everything for the city
Ruhel Islam 1:20:44
yes actually Somali refugees contributed to Muslim community in America a lot winning culture make it
very normal in in you know what I'm what I'm working interfaith relations intergenerational relation I'm
- 19 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
hoping to make change I want to like a see my daughter can tell you know my we are Bangladeshi
origin proudly but how is a home teaching telling participating the stuff I'm doing leading by example for
not only my family a lot of family a lot of community actually in all around the world now in London in I
when I went to London I see New York everywhere and also like when I was growing up one more tear
I also watch our color is a problem we have a racism problem in third world country like Bonacci
colorism programs we have a we had caste system which is you know right after Islam came to
Bangladesh to cover from you know caste system is disappear still poor people maintained within but
there was like a equality to you know this thing with Islamic culture body quality over there and in
America I feel you know a lot of stuff I supposed to be supposed to do as a Muslim and as a rapper
from Orlando my mom and I grew up in the Muslim community in the family I feel everything is here like
America festival the charity is very remote month of Ramadan and they do if you give charity days like
official he actually did some part of the debit vector community and you get benefits and stuff and
charity you're supposed to do a lot as a Muslim anyway go you know this is your this is I feel here a
different angle then I try to tell my kids look we did this but here also officially then somehow they all
equal in like you can call even though before I thought you know 100 years later I will get justice but
justice something you have to advocate for it then you can get just you have to work hard to get just it's
not easy. It cannot take for granted you have to fight for it. immigrant community Bangla community like
a normal our generation we normally have before our elder who came they were not ignoring but they
don't have to be bothered like oh no, forget it. I'm not gonna involve in our generation like me
personally, I get involved with community building community, because our children grow up here they
have to list their country and also they cannot be culturally lost. But to be a good citizen, good human
being. You have to have your roots you have to know where the roots come from. The way we have to
know whether food come from there's a whole society we did it. We have to know root confirm, you
know, any she's become unbusinesslike if you cool I know. Emily, maybe you cook in a few of our spice
something they do too much salt. What will happen? unbalancing if you were too much chili powder, too
much turmeric is healthy, but if you put too much, it's become unbalanced. So what is going on in the
world? Here? We we we advocate without we do as America promote democracy all around the world.
You know, but also i Everyday I try to land what is going on because this is also creating revenue for
America as the America immigrant. When you start dreaming about America to come America, you will
Start paying money, spending money on America the day one, pay a fee for these a day, a lot of stuff
involved. Some people land some people sell their land to come to America. You know, these are
expensive or maybe you cannot afford to do all this thing you know, come to America then I tell my kids
you are because I was born here going to school, all the access, you will complete our country, all the
facility as a you know, like a wonderful retirement benefit with a ba ba This is all part of our culture, our
culture teachers to do this, but this is officially doing it you know, so that's why I feel I found my own
little thing you can do it right. You can practice it. Only if you want, you can use it, how you want to live
your life. And don't forget who you are, we can get there. These were I telling my kids and I can take
them to mostly when I pass the library movement the parents are telling Winona LaDuke in the policy, I
participate all these things because I they said that celebration when they when they do what it called
the poaching wild rice poaching and stuff in our waters our best. The River of our bequest exactly same
then after harvest, they celebrate happy celebration. We have this culture in Bangladesh we season six
season celebration they also celebrate six Season Four Season Arbaaz fall these they're you know
fishing everything we do also fishing celebration they do in celebration, you know, and another
important thing when I connect we are all related we are connected with with food, water, whether she's
- 20 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
getting fish, everything, but in Minnesota, you know we have ice fishing the first time when I went to go
ice fishing I was surprised and shocked making the old getting cast a fish and this is like a different
feelings you don't want to use if you're a first time you can have that feeling. And if you're a fish guy
from Minnesota fish guy, you can feel those feelings get very sub surprised because we survived and I
learned about PCs under the water water is you know, I went with a DNR. I really like it. Then when i i
Could I was so lucky I get a big fish right away, you know, look at the tap, tap tap that big northern pike
and I was photoshooting you know, and photoshooting and I'm planning Oh, I'm gonna go I have a
cylinder in the winter in my basement. I have a pitch region in my basement. I have a this pin as I'm
making manos. Then gender officer says no, you have to put it away is a big fish who say no, it's more
than 22 inches so there is a protection for the fish to in America. Security disagree. Oh man, I don't
care. No, no, no, you get fine. So I run and also like you eat fish because fish is available because
they're protecting the fish. This what I'm saying our culture and the Islamic culture the Muslim supposed
to protect the fish, but like the enemy or not eat all of them keep for a generation with chicken or lamb
and everything. So these are the you know, experiences I feel so good about. I'll take all my kids with
me to run fishing for my kids, I'll know now how to cook is a survival thing to learn. And it's a problem
there. Remember, food brings people together you are hungry, you angry, you eat good food.
Everybody medicina food is a medicine they will calm you down then you have a conversation and
dialogue then you can make the world better plays and you can have it can be the change and you can
even make a difference when you were covering so you need to eat good food. If you need to have a
good food you have to know the food come from that means you have to grow your own food
Emily 1:29:31
I think this might be my last question to ask. So if there's one thing you could say to the world what
would it be? Just like a final message
Ruhel Islam 1:29:44
lot of thing coming i don't know i One of the things recently I'm facing like a people a lot of people
become greedy so be fair to each other. I'm trying to say this Be fair that's when they are going to be
get healing. If you're not fair you're going to be get your own feelings. So be fair, you know to each
other right ways to be treated. And I again say like you know, also reminding people that karma you do
bad things come back to you. Even though my business burned down. It's a material victory the brick,
right? We can rebuild again. But also have time, then good. 10 comes. So don't be stressed out about
heartache, try to learn how to move forward and don't move forward and learn from those things and
you know, do it better. last two years. If I just cry cry or my original burn down, no, then I'll be still set.
Next day I woke up by say I'm alive, building gone. But the community we build it is there. And we are
those work those building community now in a sense of belonging is there because of that. So be fair to
each other. I'll say again,
- 21 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less