Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255b
Description: Reverends Robert Evans, Rollie Robinson, and Orpheus Williams of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in a morning panel moderated... Show more
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255b
Description: Reverends Robert Evans, Rollie Robinson, and Orpheus Williams of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in a morning panel moderated by Dr. John
Benson. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial
injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:04:09
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[John Benson] Good morning, my name is John Benson. I'd like to
introduce two of the three members of our panel today. Irvin Orpheus
Williams probably found out that he was being billed as a Lutheran rather
than a Baptist so he decided he wouldn't come. [laughter] If he comes
later, we will introduce him again that time. On my right is Reverend
Robert Evans of Prince of Glory Lutheran Church in the Plymouth Avenue
area. On my left is Reverend Rolly Robinson, a Methodist Calvary
Methodist Church in the same area.
00:00:47
I've asked each of them to lead off with a brief statement and as they are
speaking you might respond to something that they say, or you might want
to ask them something about their work, or you may have a question of
long-standing about the general subject of racism in the church. So after
they are finished, we'll open up the floor to questions from you. First of all,
let me call on Pastor Evans.
00:01:19
[Pastor Evans] Thank you John. Racism is a kind of frightening word, but I
think it's a very subtle word. I don't think I'm going to say a lot here, I
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 1
would rather open it up for some kind of dialogue that might happen here
in any [inaudible] and chemistry. I was on Nicollet Avenue not--well--two
days ago and I saw the Nauga1 there, if you know who the Nauga is,
you've seen him on TV, but a great big guy in a Nauga suit and all of the
little kids were scared stiff and this guy was you know walking down
Nicollet Avenue, a kind of advertisement and I got the idea that most
people have this image of racism, that the racist is a guy who has no
horns and a forked tail and is a terrible kind of guy that speaks out
violently against black people and so forth.
00:02:27
But I think this is a cop-out in terms of our understanding of what racism
really is. I think racism is very subtle. I think it's a part of all of us of the
white community. I am convinced that we are saturated with a sense of
superiority, and even a lot I think that goes on in the church today and in
our white society, in behalf, behalf of minority groups is a kind of
expression of this subtle racism that we have.
00:03:01
Typical example: I was at a meeting yesterday, and again on Nicollet
Avenue, we had a some delegates at a meeting who came in from New
York, they stayed at the Pick-Nicollet. There are also a lot of Presbyterians
in town and--and we were handed a threat by someone, I don't know if he
was a Presbyterian or not, but it was a--it was a pitch in behalf of
integration on a religious level and there were a series of pictures I wish I
had the thing here, but in every picture, there was a white man helping a
black man. Even to the point where he gave him a blood transfusion.
00:03:44
And the idea was they are as good as we are, and it was really a racist
kind of position. Which literally assumed paternalism, a kind of benevolent
love from the second-story window as I would call it, and what came out
really was meant to be a very positive thing, and yet, some of our black
people who were there, a man from Chicago said, "this--this is a, this is a
racist trap." And I think this thing becomes extremely subtle, I don't think
our task today is to prove that you know there is racism in a church, I think
historically it has been there, not because of the church, I think, but in
spite of it, and you may want to get into the historical background, I know
Dr. Torstenson here has made some interesting studies of what has
happened in the church.
1
The Nauga was a monster character used in advertisements for Naugahyde vinyl fabrics.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 2
00:04:44
Two sets of baptismal orders of service, one for white people and one for
black people because you have to be careful, when you talk about in
baptism, setting a person free. I don't think the point here today is to
belabor the point of the historical church, and to argue whether or not
racism has been there, that's you know--that's like discussing whether or
not they're Eskimos in Alaska or not, that's obvious and I would hope to
think that our task today is to try and say, what do we do about the overt
racism that exists in the church and also the very subtle kind that
permeates me and you, and the white society and how do we get at this,
it's not like taking the speck out of the eye through a little exercise of doing
something good for black people, or confession, but I think it's maybe for
us, it's our thorn in the flesh that we're going to have to live with, we're
going to have to work it constantly, daily.
00:05:49
I think we're going to have to be sensitive to the fact that our culture, our
white society is in fact saturated with a tendency of white racism. I think it
calls for real honesty and particularly in the church where we do have, we
have the principle, we have the philosophy, we have a power I think to
overcome this. I think in the past, we have neglected this and--and maybe
now, we ought to be what we were meant to be, what we are called to be,
and maybe the greatest task right now is to face honestly and openly. You
know, “how am I handling the racism, it is a part of me?” I suppose we
could list a whole variety of examples and reel these off all morning.
00:06:40
I could just mention one, I have a young negro boy in my confirmation
class now, he's thinking about making his confirmation, we do it on an
individual basis not as a class, but his mother tells me, I don't want my son
confirmed at Prince of Glory. I don't want him confirmed a Lutheran. And I
said, “why?” She said “well, I know that he will be and has been accepted
there, but she said, I've been in other churches, I've been in other
Lutheran churches, and I know that he and our family will not, because we
have been there and felt not--not a kind of dismissal, but the kind of subtle
thing that--that kind of says without words, you know, why don't you just
kind of drift away.“
00:07:35
She said, “For this reason, I'm very concerned about my son and I'm not
sure I really want him confirmed in a Lutheran Church.” That's racism, and
that's us. And I hope that we can open some kind of splitting ourselves
down the middle, and take a good look at this, this morning.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 3
00:08:08
[Reverend Robinson] Last Sunday, I was confronted by a long-standing
layman in my congregation, and being president of The Way,2 he asked
me some very pointed questions about The Way and he said, what's this
about The Way? what's this about looting, all sorts of questions came
flooding out of his mouth, and he said, “people have no reason for looting
and they should be shot if they're caught looting.” And I said, “I'm sorry if I
take the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’ much more seriously than that.”
and he said, “I'm sorry I can't understand that, I think if someone has
broken the law, they broken the law to be punished accordingly.”
00:09:00
And so goes, not the kind of racism that was evident in the fifties, when
mothers could spit upon, white mothers could spit upon black children
and, black mothers and fathers, or a white father and a white mother
bringing their white children to an integrated school.
00:09:19
That kind of racism is--is not around in that form, it's a much more subtle
kind, and I think that you yourself are going to have to be aware of that,
and I think, the kinds of questions you may ask this morning, as the kinds
of questions are going to be awfully pointed to yourself. I think Bob has
made it clear, we think of racism in our own projection on somebody else.
I am a racist. I say that in the sense, and when I do say that, I recognize
that play a little game because that's a kind of confessional, it comes only
at moments in one's life, but as Paul said that when “I'm one of the
greatest sinners,” he only can speak from a standpoint of grace, or
forgiveness.
00:10:12
Could he ever even come to understand the depth of his orneriness. I
hope we will come to understand the depth our orneriness this morning, I
don't know if Lillian read to you in her beautiful manner, Mr. Gordon Parks,
did she read anything from Mr. Gordon Parks?
00:10:32
Okay. One of the best ways of talking about racism I don't even call it a
definition. I don't think there is a definition there's only a style of life when
we talk about racism. But he said “What I want/what I am/what you forced
me to be/is what you are.” Did you get that?
2
This suggests Reverend Robinson was President of The Way, a Black community center in North
Minneapolis.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 4
“What I want/what I am/what you forced me to be/is what you are.
For I am you, staring back from a mirror of poverty and despair, of revolt and
freedom. Look at me and know that to destroy me is to destroy yourself. You
are weary of the long hot summers. I am tired of the long hungered winters. We
are not so far apart as it might seem. There is something about both of us that
goes deeper than blood or black and white. It is our common search for a better
life, a better world.
I marched now over the same ground you once marched. I fight for the same
things you still fight for. My children's needs are the same as your children's. I,
Too, am America. America is me. It gives me the only life I know, so I must share
it in its survival. Look at me. Listen to me. Try to understand my struggle against
your racism. There is yet a chance for us to live in peace beneath these Restless
skies.”3
00:12:07
Surprisingly enough, the editorial in March 8th of Life Magazine when it
was reviewing the Kerner Report4 had a very interesting article. I’ll just
quote briefly from it.
“What the Kerner report accomplishes ultimately is the destruction of a litany of
comfortable assumptions long-held by white Americans--namely that bigotry is an
exclusively Southern infection; that Negroes have been held down by poverty not
racism; that hard work and good luck will bring success for anyone; that some
outside force is responsible for urban uprisings; that Negroes have the same
opportunities as other American minorities; and most basic of all, the report
questions the assumption that we are fundamentally a decent and humane
people.”5
00:13:09
I don't know how much theology and if you have read. But since we're
talking about the church and bigotry, I want to turn to a particular
theologian his name is Reinhold Niebuhr, to give a sense of presence on
what we're trying to talk about today, because I know once the questions
come in there beautiful way will become very specific and we'll lose sight
of some of these kind of insights. But so I shared them now. Niebuhr wrote
many years ago:
Gordon Parks, “A Harlem Family.” Life Magazine, March 8, 1968.
A 1967 report published by The National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, named for its chair,
Illinois Governor Otto Kerner, Jr.
5
Donald Jackson, “Racism, Not Poverty, or Cynicism, Caused the Riots” Life Magazine, March 8, 1968.
3
4
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 5
“There are times when the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children and
new social forces rise up as the ‘Vengeance of the Lord’ against traditional
injustice. We are living in such a time. This is a period of judgment in which the
structures and systems of community which once guaranteed a tolerable justice
have themselves become the source of confusion and injustice.”6
00:14:11
He has a whole section in some of his writings called “The confusions of
an inadequate culture.” Our culture is inadequate because we have never
appropriated the black experience and what that is meant. And till we do,
we are going to have a culture that is going to be less than what it can be.
Part of the problem of the crisis of our times, as Mr. Niebuhr points out, is
that every culture which is the spirit of a civilization always confuses its,
it's, it's own way of life to be eternal truths. And so, during a time of
cultural crisis that we live in, life comes to, very close to meaninglessness,
because the ideas that a culture once regarded as eternal are actually
being destroyed in the crisis.
00:15:21
And of course, this is further compounded because the illusions which
were thought to be eternal, in the heavens somewhere, are the ones that
are being questioned. that which is not to be questioned is questioned. It
is clearly that we have inherited from our parents, and we ourselves are
falling trapped, to the same kind of historical optimism of our culture. I
don't care where you ideologically stand, I think it's awfully hard to
transcend what that means. The historical optimistism failed to measure
the full dimension of the human spirit and its historical achievements. It
never radically took seriously the matter of human freedom. And so the air
and illusions of white culture, and so racism is that, we have thought either
by education, or by evolution, as the soft utopians would have it, that we
would have, we would overcome the difficulties of human life.
00:16:27
It's very clear that this was an understatement and underestimation of the
difficulties of relating life to life, will - will, interest to interests. We have too
often regarded the achievement of justice and social peace and human
society as a an easy task. Our parents didn't do it, but we will. It is, as a
matter of fact, a very difficult task which can be accomplished with
tolerable success only if its difficulties are fully recognized.
Niebuhr, Reinhold and Ronald H. Stone, ed. Faith and Politics: A Commentary on Religious, Social, and
Political Thought in a Technological Age. Braziller, 1968, page 106.
6
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 6
00:17:10
[John Benson] Thank you very much. Let, let us entertain questions from,
from you. Immediately I can start over here.
00:17:28
[inaudible question from the audience]
00:17:32
[John Benson?] Do what?
0017:33
[audience member clarifies question inaudibly]
00:17:36
[John Benson] The question is: what are some of the specific things that
the church can do to combat bigotry? Pastor Evans.
00:17:48
[Pastor Evans] I think we have to come back, maybe first of all, and say
I'm not the guy to ask this. I think the point of our saying “we're now going
to come and help, and by doing this, resolve our racism,” is maybe the
wrong streak. I think the point is perhaps to ask the Black community, you
know, “how can we help?” Or, “what can we do?” In a sense, for you to
ask me, it's somewhat like the blind, you know, leading the blind. and I
admit that I do think there are some things we have to straighten out in
terms of the basic position of the church, its theological and biblical
understanding of man.
00:18:44
I think the the hang-up with--the American way of life, for many people, is
synonymous with Christianity, and the measure of a man in that context, is
according to how he produces. “I am worthy because I produce.” And if
you meet two men, and one's a doctor and the other is a garbage
collector, you make some kind of status, you know, symbolism in your
mind in terms of the worth of these two people. And yet, I think, biblically
and theologically, I am worthy not because of what I produce or because
I'm a good guy, because I do nice things, but because I exist.
00:19:26
I think that's maybe one place to begin, is to understand, you know, the
basic position of the church in terms of its anthropology and its
understanding of people. And, granted, there are many things we can do,
but I think it begins with a kind of introspection. And I recognize that it's
kind of fun, you know, to examine your intestines for a while, and you
could get all caught up in that too, but I think it's a place where we have to
begin. Not simply in order to rearrange our racism, which I think we often
do, and very comfortably hide behind walls that we build and behalf of
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 7
human relations, which are really walls were we're hiding behind, but to
somehow become very honest as a human being to recognize our hubris
and maybe to take seriously, you know, I think the theological position of
the church.
00:20:30
And then, maybe it's interesting to come back to the theological positions
in terms of the doctrine of man and maybe secondly the doctrine of the
Incarnation, really the emptying of ourselves and identifying ourselves,
you know, with others. But I think we really can't do that until we take, you
know, this careful and honest look at ourselves, in relationship maybe to a
document like The Kerner Report. And I think that's where we begin. In
discussion groups, in in a kind of maybe it's an honest kind of confession,
that this isn't something that we simply get rid of, but we learn to maybe to
gradually overcome.
00:21:15
Now, there's a ditch on that side of the road, where you become so
introspective that, you know, you never get any farther. I think you live in
that kind of tension and maybe this is what life is all about. And the other
aspect, I think, is to somehow lose yourself in the involvement--the phrase
“now is where the action is” and that might be in a white community as
much as the black community. And to lose yourself and you know in a
whole variety of little things that can't be programmed. I think you have to
gain this kind of sensitivity and that's the big freeze it seems these days
there are all kinds of sensitivity trainings. Some do it for an understanding
of the self, some have to do with behavior, some have to do with group
dynamics but maybe to begin there.
00:22:14
And then the final thing. I think a lot of people say before I know what I
want to do, I want to make sure just you know how this is going to happen,
I want it to be a safe kind of involvement and I think you kind of throw
yourself into the breach and and with some faith, which I hope is still a
theological word. You cannot dump yourself in and commit yourself to
involvement that is not programmed for you by anybody, but as you're
sensitized I think you begin to find where these places are, who these
people are, that that need the kind of relationship with you and maybe
much more you need the relationship with them and and you kind of grow
together in understanding.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 8
00:22:55
I don't think it's a big massive program, but it's it's little people doing
terrible things, and sparked not by some proclamation from the mayor or a
pastor, but maybe the Holy Spirit still moves people into these kinds of
positions and the program that maybe is was to kill it. Rollie, why don't you
clarify? [he chuckles].
00:23:20
[Pastor Robinson] Out of my own personal reflection--you asked the
question “what can specifically the church do?”--I think one is that we're
going to have to understand very clearly that the source of power is from
the standpoint of community, not individuals concerned. If you are going
from that standpoint, you're going to get knifed, and killed, and you're
gonna die. Well that's fine, that may be a place where you want to put
yourself in I--don't mean die in the funeral taker sense, but just you sort of
die out, wilt out. I think it's very clear that at any time that there have been
even any movements in this country, movements, communities, always
come from the black community.
00:24:01
The time now has arrived. I believe that, and I think you understand much
better than an older generation will ,and that is that community is
extremely crucial. That is a source of power. The day of individualism is
gone. If you've got to be to more than one meeting in one night, that's just
a very clear kind of example. The sign of the times that individualism is
dead. Now community--what what does that mean? It means that some of
you're going to have to covenant together and are going to have to hold
one another accountable in other words keep one another honest and also
sustain and support one another in this struggle now you got to
understand this is no longer an extracurricular activity this is for keeps it's
a whole lifetime venture.
00:24:53
And if you think it's anything less than you, indeed have not passed the
Red Sea and you want to go back with the pharaoh. And I think it's very
clear that that you're going to have to covenant in some form however you
decide that is to be and say we choose we're not only chosen but we
choose to be these kind of people who are going to stand over against
white racism wherever it occurs within people and institutions and so forth
we just dedicate our lives and we will then work out strategies and tactics
to get on top of whatever that means. Now, there have been some efforts
in this line, and some of you may already know about it, there have been
created what we call “civilizing communities” throughout the metropolitan
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 9
area for white people to work not in black ghettos so to speak but in terms
of white ghettos, and this kind of task is having some success.
00:25:42
Well, you see the problem with most of us is that we want to organize. You
cannot organize a community, that's a misnomer. We set up our little
Newtonian kind of models, you know, there's a box up here, then we got
those subcommittees, and sub-subcommittees, and what you do is you
define out of existence even before you start any sense of movement.
You've killed it all. We don't live in a Newtonian world anymore, but an
Einsteinian world, and if you don't believe me--you're all of your lives are
like an exploding star, and I have to do a spin point on all the points of that
exploding star. All your involvement and somewhere in the center, you
are. Because you may try to find where that center is.
00:26:25
The community's got the same kind of model, and the only way you're
going to hold together all those kinds of involvements, and make them
significant, with any kind of power, you're going to have to have a sense of
community that says “who says you could be involved in such and such?”
“Well, I said I'm going to be involved in such and such.” Well, that's still
sense that you count more than any sense of community. I think we have
to enter into families that thing. Also, if you're looking for specifics
regarding the church, the Friendship Press has now published a study
action booklet, some of you may know about it, in terms for for small
groups that outline some action that can be done as far as church of
concern.
00:27:08
Richard Niebuhr had a very penetrating thing to say, years ago, when he
said the church is a social pioneer. And as a social pioneer, it first has to
exercise and cast out the demons within itself. One, the demon of racism
and discrimination, wherever it occurs in the church. And until it does that
it cannot with any honesty turn on society and exorcise society. I'm part of
a Methodist Church that has been segregated for many years. And we
have over a million Black Christians in the Methodist Church that have
always been part of a sort of a church within a church. And the Methodists
have not taken this seriously enough. And I'm sure other churches have
not either, but this is one of the roles that that I think as a church--I use a
word “exorcism,” casting out demons now maybe you feel you don't like to
call racism a demon, maybe you like to call it a social problem, but
whatever terminology you like--to lock onto it this is the kind of role and
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 10
that means just as Christ exorcised demons was that, you are the new
man, you are the new woman. And because of that, you stand over
against all those kinds of forms of discrimination, forms of bigotry, that
appear in yourself appear in others.
00:28:29
[John Benson] Another question over here.
00:28:33
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:29:19
[John Benson] The question has to do with the problem of apathy in the
church. The example is given of a special meeting in the Methodist
Church of three hundred members and eight showed up. And, as I take it,
those that did couldn't understand what the problem was. Who would like
to speak? [Both panelists speak at once and the audience laughs] Let the
Methodist speak first.
00:29:45
[Pastor Evans] Oh I just had a comment.
00:29:47
[John Benson] He should really answer this. This would never happen in a
Lutheran church because there would be six people instead of eight! [the
audience laughs]
00:30:00
[Pastor Robinson] Let's be aware of so we don't fall into an idealistic bag.
Sartre says there's only really three bags you can operate out of: one as
an idealistic bag and a second as a materialistic bag. And if you're
deprived of idealism and materialism then the only other bag you have is a
revolutionary bag. And sometimes idealists think that they're
revolutionaries. I state that because a revolutionary would understand that
he would not be surprised by that kind of turn out. I think the revolutionary
is not concerned by talking to huge gobs of people and convincing them
by his oratorical skills. He's a man who works in the shadows, and I think
there are Christians who have to work in the shadows and work in terms
of their local congregation.
00:31:02
If this--I think that there's a hidden remnant in every congregation, I'm
sure. Be it eight Methodists, or sixteen Lutheran's, or whatever it is. And I
think I think we have to be aware that one we do not fall into despair. You
see, the problem with idealism when he gets frustrated it falls into despair
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 11
or you can even be a realist and you get pushed that too far and you
become a cynic.
00:31:30
Be aware of your own deep sense of alienation. Be aware of that. In that
sense you share something very deep, as young adults, and as students,
with the black community, with black people. I think it's very easy to fall
into that kind of despair. Now, don't be overly shocked when that happens.
We’ve got to understand that history oftentimes catches people up. Yaweh
didn't come down to these people and say “I got a ten point program for
you [audience laughs] and if you agree to my ten points, I'll get you out!”
00:32:09
Undoubtedly, all of the--many people got caught up in the historical
moment and they they moved out. They were just tired of laying down
bricks. And I think that in that sense a lot of them, for all kinds of reasons,
joined. I think the thing is you have to understand that there will only be a
few who will really become part as I said earlier a community, but from
there you can find many kinds of allies. People who say “well, you know,
white people are decent people,” and so forth. And they'll join you in some
tasks. Well you take that very seriously and swing with that and
accomplish the kind of tolerable justice that has to be accomplished.
00:32:48
And not be overly concerned by your successes and failures. In fact, no
longer will you mark your life by that kind of pattern. Because you--if you
did that, then Christ would be an utter failure. I think that our stance as
Christians in this struggle is a victim/victor stance. You can play the victim,
but you always know the victory is already won. In other words, you can
throw and thrust your life anywhere you so choose, even be used if
necessary, because you stand, and the resources that inform your life are
much deeper than that particular moment.
00:33:32
[John Benson]Joining us just now is Reverend Orpheus Williams from the
Grace Immanuel Baptist Church. Now, if you look in your bulletin I'm sorry
that they put you on as a Lutheran. [audience laughs] Since, since you
come after our discussion has started, perhaps the best thing to do would
be to try and direct one or more of your questions to Pastor Williams.
00:33:39
[inaudible question from the audience]
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 12
00:34:38
[John Benson] The question is a complicated one. What I think she's trying
to get at the problem of integration or separation, how this would be
spelled out in the church. That is, separation meaning that the Black
community tries to draw on resources from within itself to increase its self
understanding, self-awareness, pride in self and so on. And, in general,
how this can be aided by the churches, is this…?
00:35:12
[inaudible response from the audience]
00:35:14
[John Benson]...and how it can be resolved. Inside of let's, say the black
churches?
00:35:26
[inaudible response from the audience]
00:35:30
[John Benson asks Reverend Williams something inaudible]
00:35:12
Well, I hear, what I really, I hear what she’s saying but I don't understand
really the problem that she trying to address. Could you make it just a little
bit simpler where really I can understand, see I hear about four different
questions. [he laughs] So I'm trying to understand [inaudible]
00:35:58
[audience member begins asking a question inaudibly]
00:36:09
[John Benson] Maybe I can just bring this over to you. [sound of the
microphone being moved]
00:36:12
[Audience member] It seems to me lately that there’s been an increased
emphasis in developing the Negro’s pride in his own race and his own
history, which of course is needed. And it seems to me this would cause a
conflict around, between this and what we've emphasized before. That is,
integration into the white community. And, I'm not sure which should be
our goal, because it seems to me that the emphasis is on the pride within
the Negro race. There has to be some kind of equilibrium between the
white community and the pride in the Negro community. And this would, I
think that causes conflict. In other words, should it be a development
toward integration, or should have been a development in toward pride of
the Negro of being themselves?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 13
00:37:09
[Pastor Williams] I really, I feel that if the Negro really knows the exact
disabilities where he came from, it would make it easier to work with him.
Truthfully, this is my feeling. After all, you must bear in your mind that you
would take just to look at yourself and say “what do I want of life?” So the
Negro, he takes a look at himself, says “what do we want?” We talk about
equal opportunities, three qualities I think again, that maybe you're
speaking somewhere in terms of--when you say integration, intermarriage,
and so forth if I'm hearing you're right. That's, that’s the term that you was
slightly speaking on again. I’ve said that, often I’ve stated that what God
joined together let not man put asunder.
00:38:15
What I'm trying to say, if this is what the two individuals want, then good
luck! Always you have to bear in your mind go back into your history. The
Bible teaches from one blood come all, so when it all winds up we're still
brothers and sisters whether it's accepted or not. I believe in human rights
and this would be “do unto others what you would have done to you.” This
is a human right. Whatever you would like to be done to you in any race.
This also applies to the Black man. He likes that too. You like to be able to
live wherever you choose? So does the Black man.
00:39:08
You wouldn't want him to come out in your community shooting, so he
don't want it here. Because we are all human beings, you may not accept
it, but we are all brothers and sisters and we think somewhat alike we
don't think alike but somewhat alike. Because again the system of
teaching wasn't exactly alike. All our lives we have learned that we must
understand you in order to survive. You didn't have to understand us to
survive, therefore we really now understand, you should try to understand
that.
00:39:46
And working together, all of us for one color I think will solve the problem.
Look at you saying “what do you want to do?” “What can you do?” And,
“What will you do?” Do you really believe that’s what you're trying to do?
Sometimes you do things, you don't do it because you believe it. You do it
cause he did it or she did it. But within yourself, examine yourself, be fair
to yourself. And whatever you attempt to do be fair. And I think people will
solve the problem. Did that answer your question?
00:40:30
[Pastor Evans] I think one of the things that you said alluded to the fact
that integration means an integration into a white society. This is not
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 14
integration. This is assimilation. And I don't think the Black community
wants this. And if you'll hit me on the head for 200 years, I probably don't
want to become like you. And I think again this is one of the healthy
tensions within the whole human relations struggle now is a tension
between separate but equal and integration. I think we have to understand
that the Black man is caught up in this tension too. I think this is positive
and it's healthy but we here again we can't judge this, we can't condemn
this, we have to accept this. Again, it's a climate that we have created, and
I think we have to understand the meaning of integration and recognize
that this is this is not assimilation into you know our society.
00:41:29
I think too often we assume that that's what what integration really means
and “I don't want to lose my culture at the expense of someone else.” And
I think that's it's an equal feeling of any people. I think the the the cry now
is that for you know equality, and a kind of sameness, but the the chance
to assert oneself as a person as a culture and as a race. Although I think
that word is probably obsolete also. There’s a human race and maybe
that’s it. But this the understanding and the hang-ups I think that we still
have the idea of the word, the concept of integration means different
things to different people.
00:42:19
I think, here again, to read, to study, to understand, what some of these
phrases mean that touch off again, the racism that we have. Integration,
black power, interracial marriage, has been mentioned it automatically
keys some of the deep feelings that we have we like to pretend that we
don't have but they're there and they come out and define for us a lot of
these phrases that we kind of kick around without understanding what
they really mean for us into the rest of society.
00:43:03
[inaudible question from the audience]
00:43:39
[Pastor Robinson] Let me rephrase the question. The question is how
does a white minister feel when you prepare a sermon on love and
brotherhood and justice to a congregation, I assume, of white people. And
they nod their heads and you smile at them and they smile back and they
shake your hands and then you go home and then on their way home they
see a black man they say they're getting closer? Does that capture what
you?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 15
00:44:11
I have the same sense of phony, of phoniness that you have. I think that
I'm in a congregation that has been going through confrontation between
two cultures for about ten years now, and I know there have undoubtedly
been a lot of words said from the pulpit in that congregation, including by
myself, that may have been pretty phony. Or, no matter how it may have
been said, it's been received in that in a limited kind of way. I think
however when a congregation that I serve is living where it is and affecting
it, at this moment, God has all kinds of ways of communicating some very
deep things. In God's troubling I guess there is more mercy than
judgment. But what I'm trying to say is is that I usually never have a frontal
attack on the problem of race and really, really hit it obliquely and
indirectly.
00:45:31
And I find that there may be several Sundays nothing is said and some of
the people comment “I wish you would quit talking about the race problem,
you know there's some of the black people who come here and they don't
want to hear about that they they they don't want to hear.” Well, of course I
go talk to my Black brothers and they “we should say a little bit more.” I
say that, as a minister, you are entrusted to speak a word and that word
brings freedom, but we've got to understand as well that that word may not
be received, and doubtedly it has not been received.
00:46:18
However, I find that if God gets frustrated in one way, he has a beautiful
way as a Black man, years ago talked about how God confronts man in
the Adam and Eve story. This was a black man hearing this story. He was
saying that after Adam and Even fall, you know they cover their fronts,
with with fig leaves, you know, covering, but God comes up from behind!
[the audience laughs] Never underestimate God. God shall even use the
wrath of man to praise him.
00:46:54
[John Benson] I'd like to direct a question to Pastor Williams that is: do you
think that Christianity is really a religion for the Black community? Do you
do you think that--Malcolm X used to say that when he began to gain
respect for his Blackness he also decided he was going to abandon the
white man's religion. Do you feel that Christianity is so much of a white
man's religion that it cannot be a real part of the new self-understanding of
the Negro?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 16
00:47:42
[Pastor Williams] I feel that Christianity this day and the way it has been
for 460 years should die. And a new Christianity should come. You cannot
tell me that the church has done its job or that Christianity has been totally
as it should, and find too much hatred. You cannot, I can’t buy that. So I
think really it's got to be a change in somewhere. I won't say that the way
it's have been talked through the 400 years was altogether wrong, but it
was something that they forgot to teach.
00:48:23
And they should teach that something. You look at Christianity.
Christianity is the people of the church, I don't know--I'm always a little
hard against that because they are supposed to be Christ’s followers, and
they are so quick to say “this don't concern me.” Now, this is not what I call
Christianity. Whether it is in your door, in your block, or whether it's five
thousand of five hundred miles away. If injustice is being done, it involves
all Christians, all priests, and all people.
00:48:58
So I think really Christianity has been whitewashed and watered-down, to
make a long story short. It’s the way I think. It's been--too much water put
in, you know how they put water in something to make it more--Christianity
having watered down. It's not the type that Christ talked about. And I
would say we'd all go back to the type of Christianity I once--I won't use
that word again--Christ’s followers, go back and begin to follow Christ the
way he taught. It’d be a better world well after tomorrow. Does that answer
your question?
00:49:40
[audience member] I'd like to direct my question to the Methodist minister.
You talk about community and how individualism is dead, and you say that
it has to be done now through the community. Well, I mean when you say
community [inaudible] community involves individuals who decided, you
know, to act in the same way today. Prime example, the word of the loving
mother church. And like, this summer I was in Jersey City, and they had a
Norwegian church, Lutheran Church, in a changing neighborhood, it is a
neighborhood starting to change. They thought “oh, well, we’ll be nice and
wonderful, you know, allow these Negroes to come into our church, our
wonderful church, and so they did this. It got to be that the Negroes are
now up to 70% and the old Norwegians, they couldn’t understand this. So
you know what kind of community action is this? We're a community and
we all should live and love together and work together. You know, if
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 17
individuals don't accept other individuals as on the same ground that “here
we are a group of individuals and we all are doing this.”
00:50:56
Like, another example: you come into a church as a stranger, and you say
“oh, we're the church,” and then “we're glad to have you here.” And you
get a thank-you note back from them for attending their church, and you
got the coldest reception from the people who attended this church! And
you wonder “that's a church, they've totally failed.” The church that says
“we're a community of loving, you--we welcome you to our services as a
visitor. And they don’t, the people themselves you know. What's gone
wrong? Where is your community? Then then the individuals haven't
driven to belong, partake, and given themselves, to the community, to the
stranger as they come into their community.
00:51:39
[Pastor Robinson] I don’t see any other Methodist ministers onto the table,
so [the audience laughs]. It’s strange that a Methodism--Methodist
minister would address himself in the question of community, with our
heightened sense of individualism. Christianity has never been, it is it has
never been one for individualism. Personal--for persons, yes, but not for
individuals. If you only stand for individuals, then somehow you just knock
out what church is. When you're baptized, you immediately become part of
a body, and you are always part of that body no matter where you go.
00:52:15
In that sense, there's a community. As a, even outside of the church, one
of the encounters that we--even today, we, we’re, you're having people
here, Black people here primarily, not because you're particularly
interested in them as a person, but because they are Black people. And
this is the time that--
00:52:37
[The audience member begins to speak]
00:52:39
Okay, let me finish my point, and that is that we have to be aware that, in
this time, we're meeting one another as groups, and not as individuals in
one sense. But going back to community and individualism, I mean to say
that there--for me and Christianity, there's no such thing as individualism.
Part of persons, part of the community, great. You're not satisfied.
00:53:06
[Audience member] Not quite. You mentioned the body, and you say that,
you know, you're in a body. Well how come there's so many lame dead
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 18
cells in the body, is what I want to know. [Pastor Robinson laughs] They
welcome you in, you know. The church and the unit can say “we will do
this,” but the congregation will say “well, the church says we have to do it
therefore we have to do it.” And “we're doing it because the church says
we have to do it. [a panelist and the audience member each says
something inaudible] I know what I mean uh, I just can't say it. The church,
like, the church council says we will have an integration Sunday, or we will
have a building fund, and we can hear this thing going on at Holy
Community. They have a building fund and they're going to build high-rise
towers over there for the old folks and you know the whole church has
decided on this.
00:54:03
But you always get this one faction that says well we'll do it all right
because we have to do it there's no excuse, no way to get out of it. It's just
a general coldness you get from the church that says, you know,
“welcome! Glad to see you!” And everybody in the church really couldn't
give a care whether you’re there or you’re not. Oh, hey…”
00:58:27
[Pastor Robinson] Are you ever cold with anyone?
00:59:30
[Audience member] Me? Oh, I imagine.
00:54:29
[Pastor Robinson] So, yeah there's coldness in the church. There's the
sense of duty that is misplaced servanthood. They're all those kinds of
things. If a Methodist--may I, I'd like to quote from Martin Luther about our
kind of alienation and since we have about the church maybe. The church
is a whore, but she's my mother. Remember, Martin Luther? [the audience
laughs and claps]
00:55:03
[Pastor Evans] I respond to a previous assertion and that is that the
people you meet in church on Sunday or or the Church Council this is this
is not necessarily synonymous with the body of Christ which is invisible.
And I think we get caught up with the idea that the people you meet the
church on Sunday and, you know, “this is the body.” This is not
necessarily so. I mean coming into the building, this doesn't make you a
member of the body or a Christian any more than going in a hen house
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 19
makes you to chicken. It doesn’t work that way. [laughter] And I think you
talked about-- that was said by John Wesley [loud laughter and applause]7
00:55:57
But I could say I could say the same thing about my reception here at
Augsburg. You have, you know, you have official hosts here who are
meant to be nice to the guests who come, and no one said “hello” to me or
greeted me. And this is this is society today. The rat race, you know,
existence that--I don't think it's a desire on the part of you not wanting to
meet me or people in church not wanting to meet you, but this is a kind of
the unfortunate game we’re involved in now, and and it's very unchristian
really.
00:56:40
[Audience member] Well this can be directed to Reverend Williams as
well. The example that I want to bring up has to do with a Black person
being white church and that we have people in our church that--we had a
Nergo family coming in and they were in the church, and some people just
thought the world of them because there are really wonderful people. But
there were others that, they would turn or they would stare, you know,
make snide remarks or something like this. And, later, when we had a
discussion about this the attitude of the people they’d say “No! We love
these people, you know. We, you know, we think they're really great!” And
all this and that. And they cannot see when they're doing anything wrong.
How do you combat people in the church that have this attitude and yet
they think that they are Christian, and they cannot see their thoughts as to
their attitudes in the way they react to different people?
00:57:44
[Pastor Williams] Well as, you all just said a while ago, everyone that's in
the church don't make them be a body of Christ. A lot of people can go to
the church can, as the Baptists teach, proclaim that they are following
Christ, but that don't make them be following Christ. I think really the best
way to combat that is to: you take your stand as a Christian. And, by you
taking your stand, see really whether you'll ever accept this and that a
Christian is nothing but like a tool for God anyway. So you take the stand
and, do your job, and encourage others. This is about the best way in that
this one [inaudible] we pray for them. I was taught prayer changes things. I
can say prayer brought us a long ways. I think this is why we were able to
7
John Wesley was the founder of Methodism, and Pastor Evans likely misquoted him as a
self-deprecating joke.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 20
come this far, through faith and prayer. So, you as an individual--just stand
as a Christian and encourage.
00:58:59
See, you really don't know the authority within your body, with Christ, until
you begin to use that. And I also said if you use what you got, sometimes
Christ will subsidize it and gives you a little more. [laughter] So this was
these one of the greatest things that you could do. Does that answer your
question? [he laughs]
00:59:17
[Pastor Evans] There's a word that Jesus makes very clear about loving
the enemy. And the enemy, boy I tell you, that that's a real difficult one
these days. Maybe your parents may be your enemies. And it may be
these white Christians that may be your enemies in this situation where,
for them, you know you are the enemy and the kind of threat that you
bring upon them. And I'm saying that you must love them and, as
Reverend Williams said, pray for them. Pray without ceasing.
01:00:08
There's a group of us from around the metropolitan area which have
organised an Interfaith Emergency Council that, if a human disaster blows,
the church can become present to that disaster. And some of us were
becoming extremely hung up with somebody, I don't know, some person.
But, it's very easy to harangue. You know with all the compassion that we
have, in ourselves and the rightness that's within ourselves, and at the
same--someone said “well, why don't you just pray for them?” Well, I think
the if you’ve ever had to pray for an enemy, I think then you're really
tasting something about what prayer means.
01:00:51
And I think that as one generation, they oversell a certain style of prayer
which we don't feel we can buy, there's you know I think Malcolm Boyd in
some way has caught for us what prayer is. And, in that sense, Malcolm
Boyd's book “Running With Me, Jesus” or “if Jesus I,” however it’s said
[another panelist says the correct title] “Are You Running With Me,
Jesus?” That is prayer without ceasing. He is running without ceasing, and
all the situations that confront one. I just say that in that situations that as
Reverend Williams said, that you take your stance, and I think sometimes
we think that we, out of our optimism, can manipulate and work around
conflict. No.
01:01:40
[John Benson] We have time for just one more question.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 21
01:01:44
Maybe this isn't a fair question to ask, but I wonder what and you know we
come to the safe we ever could completely be integrated, what would this
be like? You know, I've heard some people say that it would be like white
people looking at the Negro indifferently as they look at at the way other
way people are and vis-versa. What--is this right?
01:02:08
[the audience laughs after a silence]
01:02:14,
[Pastor Williams] Seems like no one want this one, I don't know. Truthfully,
if we would ever be integrated in love I would say it would be a happy
world, but integrated because society says so, we would still be in trouble
because that little chaos would still be there. But integrated in love,
integrated in love, then everybody would be happy. I doubt that will
happen in my lifetime but hope in some way that--you known as we said,
ah Christians I can't understand again. I'd like to look at everyone as a
human being and I like to look and see a little part of Christ and every
every human being.
01:03:05
And I would like to feel that Christianity, I should say religion, is not
segregated. It's a little part of Christ I would like to see in all of us. I also
remember the book “God is Dead,” and, when I see our confusions,
injustice, I said this is when God died, in that place. When I see love and
happiness, well there is God, he's alive. I think we'll be able to have a
beautiful world once everybody has integrated love and they heart, not
because Sarah’s done it, Jack does it, but because they have love within
their heart. It would be a happy world.
01:03:52
[John Benson] Did that answer your question?
01:03:58
[Pastor Evans] Here again, a definition of what is integration, I think we
usually see this as racial. I think, for me the racial bit is not half as--
[The original tape cuts off]
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 22
Show less
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0124b
Description: Reverend Robert Evans, Revered Orpheus Williams, and Ron Welch of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in an afternoon panel mod... Show more
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0124b
Description: Reverend Robert Evans, Revered Orpheus Williams, and Ron Welch of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in an afternoon panel moderated by Dr.
John Benson. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of
racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:53:53
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[The recording cuts in as John Benson is speaking]--you are moving up to
fill up the front chairs. I will introduce our panel this afternoon discussing
“Christianity and Bigotry.” [inaudible conversation from the audience]
Okay.
00:00:24
On my left is Mr. Ron Welch from the Southside Way, is that what you call
it? [Inaudible] To my immediate right, is the Reverend Orpheus Williams
from Grace Immanuel Baptist Church, not Lutheran as you have indicated
in the program. [audience laughs] We apologize a second time for doing it
twice. And the far right, Reverend Robert Evans, the American Lutheran
Church--Prince of Glory Lutheran Church, both of the latter two men serve
churches on the Northside, near Northside.
00:01:16
The morning session we began by having short statements by the group,
but I think perhaps we'll dispense with that this afternoon and move
directly into questions from you, now this will be the format. We will
entertain any question that you have related to our topic--people related to
the topic somehow. We're interested especially in the church, what the
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 1
churches have done to encourage racism, bigotry, what they can do about
it, what the Black community thinks of white churches, anything that you
would like to hear these men discuss.
00:02:00
[Audience member] Yes I'd like to ask Reverend Williams if he feels that
the history of the Black church, it's history has in any way helped to
decrease the dignity of Black people. Has it fostered with this attitude in
some ways the white church has.
00:02:19
[John Benson] Just checking, could all of you hear that question?
Probably not. The question is has the Black church helped decrease the
sense of dignity of Negro people? Decrease.
00:02:33
[Reverend Williams] I would like to say, I just want to say that Black
church really has been all that the Black man could lean on to keep and to
hold up his dignity, although the Black church has not been what it should
be instead of not, but this is what has brought us thus far. We have always
been taught to look up and not around us, therefore, we have looked up
and by looking up we could lift our heads and say as, I would say Christ
taught us.
00:03:22
[Augsburg President Oscar Anderson, asking from the audience] What is
the feeling now with respect to the Black church, do they want to remain
as Black congregations stronger and better, or is the desire for integration
among the Christian members of the church?
00:03:41
[Reverend Williams] Really I don't believe in a such thing has a Black
church, no way, I would like to rephrase that to God's church. And God's
church could be made up out of many different colors. It's like a flower,
various beautiful flowers, all mixed up in one beautiful bouquet of flowers. I
think when you speak of God's church and not a Black church, I think this
is what's really wrong with speaking in terms of Black churches and a
white church but we ought to speak in terms of God's church, because we
are Christ's followers, or Christians that we're supposed to be then we
would say God's church. At Grace Emmanuel, I welcome everyone.
Whosoever will, let them come, and often I'll tell them this is not my
church, this is God's church. I think this is the attitude that all churches
should take.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 2
00:04:38
[Audience Member] I'd like to ask Mr. Welch if he thinks that the church,
organizational church, still has, could be effective in the whole movement,
and if so how or is it too late?
00:04:49
[John Benson] The question is can the institutional church be effective in-what kind of movement?
00:04:57
Well, the whole issue [Inaudible].
00:05:01
[John Benson] The whole racial issue.
00:05:06
[Ron Welch] I'll answer that by saying who I am. I was a Catholic priest for
five years until last summer. And I quit for the reason, the answer that I'll
give to your question. I think some-somewhere along the line the
organizational church might wake up and realize what it's supposed to do.
I would say it's too steeped in money. It's too steep with material criteria.
It's too steeped in buildings to be able to make the significant change that
it has to make to meet the needs today. Now if they're willing to give over
what they have in great quantities to the people who have some ideas as
to what might be done, without always having strings attached, I'd say
then we might get back to the very notion of church.
00:05:56
When church gets to be such a big business and such an organization as
it is today, be it Catholic, be it Episcopalian, be it Lutheran, anything else
it's no longer church. It's business, and I think when, in 313, the problem
began, with Constantine, where you had church and state. Where you
have power connected with church. I think there's an awful lot of power
that can and ought to be connected with the very notion of church if you
understand group dynamics. I think that you have to have church involved
with politics, but I think when church becomes an organization that
becomes an entity in itself, as it has now, and uses the power that it has to
lobby as it has and doesn't think about the people that it's serving; black,
white, red, whatever color you want.
00:06:39
I think that you've got a church which is not able to serve. And I think that
organized Christianity has been colonial, has been paternalistic, it's been
any of the--whatever you want to call it in terms of treating people, and it
has not thought about humanism it's thought about materials and if it gets
over the big basic notion of materialism that it has, these criteria which it
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 3
has used for its success symbols such as your school here or anything
else, you know, we build schools we got so many kids and all that sort of
thing, that's not religion. If it gets over that, then it can serve. But as I
started out by saying, it's so steeped in money, buildings, and quantity that
I question whether or not, in our day and age, in my generation, in your
generation, it's going to be able to make the significant change.
00:07:21
Last statement: I believe that if the changes take place in two ways: from
inside institutions and outside institutions, the church is an institution that
will not change from the inside, the only reason it will change is because
it's forced to change from the outside.
00:07:37
[Audience member] From this would it follow then, at the most effective
means for a person who considered himself a member of the church ie.
the body of Christ is to opt out of the institutional church?
00:07:44
[Ron Welch] The question is, then should a person who feels himself a
follower of Jesus Christ opt out of the organizational church? I can only
speak for myself and say that's what I decided to do. I can't tell someone
else that that's the best thing to do for them. If enough of us put pressure
from the outside, hopefully there's somebody inside who the guys at the
top will talk to. They don't want to lose face and talk to us, so they got to
talk to somebody inside and so it's like the Black man who stays in the
institution, because we on the outside or The Way or somebody else
pressure, somebody will finally talk to that man inside the institution.
00:08:17
They won't talk to us, that's embarrassing, so if there are people inside the
institution, who understand what's taking place in the world, then I say
fine, stay there. Because we'll fight like hell on the outside, you fight like
hell on the inside, but make sure you're ready and willing to put your job
on the line when that guy at the time asks you what should be done. Then
I'd say, okay, then you can serve a purpose too, but if you're
establishment minded, get the hell out.
00:08:41
[John Benson] Bob, what do you think about that?
00:08:46
[Reverend Evans] [Laughs] Well I decided to stay on the inside to fight it
out. I think speaking in relationship to the role of the church in a whole
area of human relations and racism, you know, there's a lovely phrase that
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 4
says we become agents of reconciliation. I really don't buy that, I assume
that to be in this position you have some ability in relationship to
communicate with both sites. I think white, as a Protestant church, we've
lost this relationship. I think they're perhaps isolated instances where this
is not true but in terms of the image, the Black man has the white church. I
don't think we have that trust relationship.
00:09:30
We have a lousy image, and I think, and perhaps sounds pessimistic, but
to me it's realistic that, at this point, we can in no way really serve that role
in terms of some kind of reconciling agent between the Black and the
white church or Black and white people. This gets into the area of racism
and this may come up and perhaps we ought to speak to it then, but I
think maybe we're paralyzed, but we're not dead, and hopefully the
combination of pressure from the inside and from the outside, some
exciting things could happen and I think are.
00:10:14
[Ron Welch] Jesus Christ said, If you want to live, you have to die.
Remember? All the way through his gospel, said if you want to live you
have to have the guts to die. He wasn't just talking about individuals, he
was also talking about institutions, and if the church wants to live, it has to
be willing to die for every generation, and for every big circumstantial
change in history. Sad to say that churches have not understood good
theology.
00:10:42
[Reverend Williams] [Exhales into the microphone, possibly indicating
irritation] Well, I can say that I have died one time, some say I really don’t
have to die [inaudible]. Really, I feel kind of like the old saying said with a
country boy, young minister come to the big city with a big, beautiful
church and he kept [inaudible] that church and he said, I sure would like to
get in there to preach. So he asked one of the officials that, ‘I've been
here,’ said ‘I've been here five years and I've never been able to get into
this church to preach.’ He said, ‘don't worry with the church been built 20
years and God hasn't been able to get either.’ [Laughter]
00:11:26
Remember if God can't get in the church they're gonna be problems
anyway. The big beautiful building with God left out, and God is important
so when we leave God out we got problems. So I advise you, when you
go to church, try to take a little part of God in there with you.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 5
00:11:52
[Audience member] There are some studies that show that--I don't want
the mic--there are some studies that show that there is racism in the
church, and that not only that there is racism in the church, but that the
church as an institution has very much been a part of promoting that
racism, and my question I guess is, you know, if we can legislate doctrines
[…]legal doctrines in the church, why can't we legally doctrinize the
priesthood of all believers and include all colors and all races, and all this
sort of thing.
00:12:36
I mean, it seems to me that we have all sorts of doctrines, but that doctrine
sort of should include this sort of thing but it doesn’t. And why can't we
force our white congregations into believing that doctrine as we, you know,
force them into believing all others.
00:12:59
[Reverend Evans] I think the documents all have been there just as the
Constitution of the United States has always been there offering justice
and equality to all people. The point is we don't practice it. I don't think we
need more doctrines, or even the clarification of the doctrine of man. I
think we simply have to live out what we supposedly believe, a question of
racism in the church. I don't think you have to do studies on this anymore
than to do it a study to determine if they're Eskimos living in Alaska. I think
it ought to be a basic assumption, and I don't even have to think you have
to believe at the point that racism has played a great part in the history of
the church in the United States.
00:13:54
Double kinds of baptisms that we had way back then were, we had two
orders of baptism. One for white one for black people because when you
talk about, you know, baptism, dying, and being born again and set free
you know you really have to be a little careful how you, in those days
explain this to non-white people. And I think the racism bit is done not in a
overt, even aware way today although that's present. I was at the Nicollet
Hotel and couple nights ago a guy was passing out tracts, supposedly in
behalf of human relations in the church, and it was it was poorly done in
the first place, but it said, you know, ‘we ought to be together’ and they
had a picture on each page and one was a white man giving a blood
transfusion to a Black man and all the way through it was a white man you
know helping this poor Black man.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 6
00:14:48
And really it was a racist tract under the guise of an attempt to talk about
human relations so it's there and it's in all of us. I think deeply ingrained,
and I think maybe it's the thorn in the flesh that we have to deal with daily.
We're saturated with the sense of superiority, and this is true in the
church, not because it's the church, but we're human beings in the church
and in spite of what we ought to believe we don’t, and I think there are a
lot of reasons why. I think the doctrines are sufficient now. We just don't
believe them. We don’t live them.
00:15:32
[Ron Welch] You used two words that really bothered me; legislate force.
You were talking about legislating doctrine and you were forcing people to
believe something let those--
00:15:42
[Audience member] --I mean by tradition, I mean, you know we aren't a
part of the church unless we're baptized. We're not a part of the church--
00:15:47
[Ron Wlech] Oh all right you want --
00:15:49
[Audience Member] That kind of traditional sense of legislation
00:15:51
[Ron Welch] Alright, but I think what you're getting onto is the basic
problem that would come up with in religion, which is when you start
theorizing that much on religion and you start figuring how many angels
can dance on the head of a needle all that sort of thing, you know. This is
when you get into the problem of what religion is or isn't.
00:16:07
Religion is a way of life and there probably are as many religions as there
are people, and yet people will come to some agreement and end up with
a movement such as Christianity, or Muslim, or whatever it might be
whatever it might be, but when you come down to legislating, and when
you come down to using that word ‘forcing’ something, those two words
right off the bat as I say, bespeaks something that I don't want any part of.
I'll never be part of an organized religion again. I'll be part of The Way. I'll
be part of the Black people's movement, despite the fact that I got a white
face, and as far as I'm concerned that's religion, but I'll never be part of a
religion that gets so defined that it does what you said.
00:16:48
Do I make any sense?
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 7
00:16:51
[Audience member] Yeah.
00:16:51
[Ron Welch] You know that's, as far as I'm concerned, what got religion
into the problem it's in right now, and how is it undefine itself. To fit in
society which is so complex, which has so many differentiations, so many
different circumstances, which is cybernetic, which is technological, go
right down the line it can't fit all those unless it's become so non-defined
and yet it has some basic goals about humanism and as Reverend
Williams said, when you go to church, bring God in the church, you know,
how do you bring God in the church? By understanding and believing what
you are or another person is, that's God. We put God way up here, we've
defined him, we've defined God's organization, quotation marks, and we
end up with a church which is all screwed up.
00:17:39
[Audience Member] Yes, I would like to direct this question to the
Reverend Evans. You mentioned earlier that you would rather stay in and
fight. I'm wondering if what happened to Bishop [James] Pike, Father
Malcolm Boyd and, to a lesser extent, Father Groppi would be any kind of
discouragement to the men of cloth, who really speak out against the
institutionalized [inaudible] in their stand.
00:18:11
[Reverend Evans] Repeat the question.
00:18:18
[John Benson] The question is directed to those, like Pastor Evans, who
have decided to stay within structure, the organizational church and fight
from there. The question is: isn't gonna rather discouraging thing, people
like this, to view what has happened to people like Malcolm Boyd, Father
Groppi in Milwaukee, and who else did you name?
00:18:40
[Audience member] Bishop Pike.
00:18:41
[John Benson] Bishop Pike.
00:18:41
[Pastor Evans] You could also add the name of Jesus Christ to that one
too, and maybe that's where things kind of fit together. I don't think we're
called to succeed or you know an easy way of life but they're called to lay
it on the line, and if we can't be honest and if we can't be open, then we
don't even have any business in the organized Church. I mean that's, I
think, the name of the ballgame.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 8
00:19:05
Whether in a church or in a human relations game, or whatever it is, if at
this point you're not, I mean this isn't a movement that will, you know, be
resolved in the next two, or ten, or fifty years. If you're going to commit
yourself to even the movement, in respect of the church, I think you have
to be ready to lay your life on the line, and if it's anything less than that,
then I would say, you know, you're really a phony. And these men only
remind us of the fact that this is a game, that that isn't a game, it's for
keeps. You bet your life, and that's it.
00:19:46
[John Benson] I feel like this question goes deeper, though, and asks
whether in your opinion, the institutional church is capable of doing
anything worthwhile here. That is, whether the suffering and giving of
oneself, and so on it you just described, really would be worth it for those
that stay inside the structure. As it--is the church really capable of doing
anything here?
00:20:17
[Reverend Evans] Well, I think only to the point that it recognizes power
that comes from beyond itself. I think we've lost this. The church has
become, in many cases, an institution, period. In and of itself, but I think
there's always the remnant, and I think this happens constantly in the life
of the church and we're seeing maybe an acceleration of that kind of
constant death and renewal that's taking place right now.
00:20:48
I don't know, but I don't worry too much about the institutional church. I
think as a guy who happens to be a Christian and involved in the church,
you know, you go out and you do your thing and that's it. You feel called to
do it. If you spend all of your time, you know, analyzing the institutional
church it's kind of fun, you know, to examine your intestines and you can
get all hung up in that too, but you forget about that, and you go out and
you be with, you'll think the church ought to be. And, you know, I'm not
gonna reform the church. I think you can become so, you know, paralyzed
with this little business that you will become totally inactive. and I think you
go about your work in and I see pockets and communities of people, in the
church, that I think are really being the church. I think this is exciting and I
see more of these people than I do the images that you mentioned and I
am not discouraged.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 9
00:21:52
I think it's a very encouraging thing to see, for the first time, people, you
know, talking very honestly about the institutional church. We used to talk
this way, but always in secret, now it's in the open, and I think that's
healthy.
00:21:10
[Ron Welch] I think the question comes down to whether the church is an
organization, an institution, or a movement. You read Eric Hoffer’s book,
The True Believer, and I don't know if you agree with Eric Hoffer, but I
think he at least defines the movement fairly well and I think he defines
Christianity as a movement that was, with emphasis on past tense.
00:22:29
Within Christianity, there've been certain people such as Agustin, or
Francis of Assisi, or Francis Xavier, Ignatius of Loyola, or Martin Luther, or
John Calvin, or other people who have taken this movement, the basic
rudiments of the movement and have gone off for another tangent, have
done something with it. And if that same thing can be done today, then I'll
agree that the institutional Church has something to offer, but then I would
guess that you're going to end up with something which looks completely
different from the institutional church, so what I'm saying is that if the
church is going to serve people, it's got to be a movement. I still don't see
that type of thing happening, and that's why I, myself, am very pessimistic
about it.
00:23:06
Until the church really dies, until people are really frustrated with the fact
that they don't have something more than just the material things that
we've got and I think we need more than that. Until they get to that point,
they aren't going to start a groundswell which is going to produce a
movement and I see as long as we've got clergymen with good salaries,
as long as we got the people who are supporting the clergymen having
enough to eat, you're not going to have a good solid movement within
Christianity.
00:23:36
[Audience Member] […]says in there how Pastor Evans has mentioned
that [inaudible] that he wasn't really too concerned about institutionalized
church, and yet at the same breath he says he's going to stay in there and
fight out. How can you fight something that you have already [inaudible]
just said? And also, you mentioned that everyone has the lay his life on
the line.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 10
00:24:01
I think every individual these three that I mentioned have, and they had
one big risk of being excommunicated, of big fired for heresy, and if you're
not too familiar with them three men [inaudible] Reverend William
Youngdahl, who despite all the cover-ups, was driven out of town because
of his aggressive stand on racism.
00:24:34
[John Benson] Bob, why don't you tell us something more about your
particular congregation and especially the way in which the, we say the
American Lutheran Church receives you. How do they look on your work
00:24:48
[an audience member, perhaps the person operating the microphone,
laughs]
00:24:51
I can't speak for the American Lutheran Church. I think my relationship is
with people in the public housing area in the north side of Minneapolis.
When I say ‘I don't, you know, care about institutional church,’ I don't have
time to get concerned about, you know, institutions and hierarchy and
anything like that. I feel I have a calling to serve people and I get involved
there. I just don't have the time and the energy. I think there are people in
the church who have more influence than I do to do that, but my thing is
working in an area of poverty and in a racially mixed area, and
congregation and I've come close, I suppose, at times of being chopped
down and I know some of the pressures and the lack of funds and all that,
that have happened. We're in a church where the Roman Catholic Church
checked out, and we took over, and recognize that we're there, called not
to success, but to faithfulness in a church that I think and in a society, I
think here we have to say if we have a sick church we also have a sick
society.
00:26:05
But you know, you don't check out a society today because it's sick, but
you can't jump out of your skin. You can out of the church, but I think
there's a similarity here too, that you hang with it because you're a part of
it and [...]
00:26:22
[John Benson] Is your congregation self-sustaining?
00:26:24
[Reverend Evans] No. No.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 11
00:26:25
[John Benson] You get money from the whole mission, Department of the
ALC?
00:26:27
[Reverend Evans] Right. And this is always subject to, you know, pulling
the rug out from under your feet and I think.
00:26:36
[John Benson] Are they trying to tell you what to do?
00:26:40
[Laughter]
00:26:43
[Pastor Evans] Well, in a way.
00:26:44
[Laughter]
00:26:46
[Pastor Evans] This doesn't bother me. I can fight them, but I think there's
some more, there's some very real challenges in the community that our
church has nothing to do with it.
00:26:55
[John Benson] Apparently though the church headquarters supports you
rather than opposing it, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't give you this
money.
00:27:05
[Pastor Evans] Yeah they do financially, but I've been in a meeting the last
two it two days in which our urban men are coming together and are in a
sense ready to the blow it wide open if they can, in terms of the whole
urban ministry of the church.
00:27:20
[John Benson] What do you mean blow it open?
00:27:22
[Reverend Evans] Well, the policy, the attitudes, the investments of the
church, many many things in which I feel, you know, they're just not being
realistic in relationship, you know, the life in America today. I would rather
see this a dialogue within the group. This is getting to be a duet rather
than a discussion unless you want to pursue it.
00:27:48
[John Benson] I could change the subject a little bit with a question to
Reverend Williams. Malcolm X used to say that, the same time that he
gained his respect for himself as a Black man, he left the white man's
religion behind. He was referring to his conversion to Elijah Muhammad's
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 12
Black Muslim religion. The question is raised sometimes, has Black
Christianity really sold out to the white man? Is it a kind of an ‘Uncle Tom’
institution, therefore unable to really provide the Black man the kind of self
respect and song that he needs?
00:28:54
[Reverend Williams] I must say that the majority of the books that the
Black churches have the white man was the author of the book. One of
the things that I've always said that you cannot destroy is that no part of
Christ, that soul, that’s within the spirit. Often, I've said you can destroy all
Bibles but then our men can teach Jesus and crucify those that have so
believed that. I believe in the supreme. I believe in the hereafter, but I
must say, although it breaks my heart to say it, but I must say it. We
cannot be serving the same God and have this much confusion. If there is,
then it’s taught differently than in the book, because I'm sure signifies the
some of the people are good so-called to be Christians.
00:29:51
Christians were taught to love one another so somewhere down the line
somebody slipped and fell or something, I don't know. But there's one
thing about it that, the little part of God that's in me that I believe in, it
covers [inaudible] it gives me strength in the determination although it
takes my life, you know, you can be alive and yet dead. You just a walking
around body, and when we're the Christians get where they don't stand up
with justice, will they be Black or white, they're dead. I couldn't believe that
the church pattern, the church system because the churches have not
stood up for justice and for rights the close ones they're then brought out,
or bribed, or scared out, to stand up, to speak out that made of other
people turn from the church. People need a little bit of church and get and
tried hard to help poor people.
00:31:03
The people that they so-called the unreachable. I don't believe in
unreachable. We all have problems. I was thinking what he just said, he
had pulled away from the church. I think, his effort, the job that you're
trying to do, is really done more than the church because he is trying to
help people who need help. And this is what I like to see the church
[inaudible], so I called him, Reverend of The Way church! [inaudibe
chatter and laughing].
00:31:34
[Ron Welch] Odds are backslapping.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 13
00:31:38
[Ron Welch ]I know Robert Williams, and he does an awful lot with the
people from The Way.
00:31:43
He and Syl Davis are very good friends, and Syl takes an awful lot of stock
in what Reverend Williams says. By the time Malcolm X was just about
killed, he had also pulled away from the Muslim religion for lots of reasons
which he alludes to in his book his autobiography, the Black Muslim
Religion.
00:32:02
I think Reverend Williams is an example of a man who is a follower of
Christ as he himself keeps referring to, and yet would not follow to the
generalization which we call Christianity. I would put him in, you know, he
follows Christ like he follows Gandhi, like he follows all sorts of other
people who had strong convictions about human beings and about God in
people. And so, in this sense, knowing Reverend Williams and the type of
work he does and he does stand pretty much alone in these towns, the
question that you directed to him I would say fits him and yet it doesn't fit
him, because I think he's a very unique Black clergyman in these times.
00:32:48
[Audience member] In your opting out of the church, maybe this is too
broad a question--I'm directing this to Ron Welsh--In your opting out of the
church, and maybe it is too broad a question, but what Christology have
you retained or could you wrap up your theology in just a few short
statements. I'm interested to see if, you know, what you're retaining in this
religion that you referred to as your individual religion.
00:33:14
[Ron Welsh] Christ was a radical revolutionary who understood group
dynamics and politics as well as, if not better than, Mahatma Gandhi and
Castro and Lenin and Stalin and lots of other people. Now I don't say that
he was working for the same things necessarily Stalin or some of these
guys working for, but Christ was basically a revolutionary. Christ basically
started a movement. And so when I talk about what I retain from in my
Christology, I say that Jesus Christ talked about the beauty of creation.
Jesus Christ was God incarnate. Now we can talk for the next twenty
years about what that means, but I'd like to think that Jesus Christ was a
person who demonstrated, by his own being what it meant to be beautiful,
what it meant to be a human being who wasn't afraid to look at life and live
it, and I'd like to think this is pretty much what I think of in terms of God,
what I think of in terms of Jesus Christ.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 14
00:33:58
Now if you're gonna, if you want to ask me, do I believe that Jesus Christ
the son of God, yeah so am I. I don't know what he is more than I am. I
don't worry about it. When it comes down to the sacraments, and
everything else that you know, that you want to get into the Eucharist, I
say wait a second, the Eucharist, and Baptism, these are all group
dynamic methods that you've got to have in every good movement.
00:34:22
[Audience member] How about the doctrine of salvation?
00:34:22
[Ron Welch] Doctrine of salvation, I don't worry about it.
00:34:25
[Audience member] How come?
00:34:27
[Ron Welch] How come? I don't know, I just don't worry about it. I worry
about living, I'm terribly existential, I suppose. If there's a hereafter, I'm not
the least bit worried. I'm doing my best.
[00:34:44]
[Audience member] I think Bishop James Pike has more or less answered
this question. about salvation. I think he was preaching a kind of heaven
on earth, and for this very belief that he thinks is right, he was threatened
with a trial by the Church bureaucracy, and that is why I brought the
question. If, at all, a person can lay down his life for his beliefs, can he
successfully and realistically do it within the church confines? Recent
examples are very discouraging, I have to say.
00:35:30
[Orpheus Williams] You must bear in your mind that if we speak enough
Christians, but if we are really speaking of Christ’s followers, then we must
be willing to die for what we believe. I think every Christian must be willing
to stand up for justice and if it takes their life, then so what? You're better
off dead! We talk about heaven, we can't go [inaudibe] we must die
anyway so it's no wrong to die by what's right. I think this is a blessing to
be able to die for a good cause. And all Christians should be willing to die
for right, but make sure they right. It's no disgrace in dying for what you
believe in. I don't think so. The doctrine that I preach, I'm willing to die for
it. I'd rather be dead anyway. It can't be no worse than here. Even if
there’s no hereafter, it can't be no worse than here. So I would rather be
dead. I wouldn't have the problems that [inaudible]. Problems everyday,
my hair’s beginning to turn white, some problems--unjustice. Bruises from
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 15
being scorned, missing wheels, so I'm willing to die for what’s right, what I
believe in.
00:36:56
I believe in Christ, I believe in being a follower of Jesus Christ, and if
someone shoots me down, good.
00:37:10
[Ron Welch] I ain’t so willing to die, Reverend. [Reverend Williams laughs]
00:37:13
But I agree with what you're saying. Come back the salvation thing, which
you bring up, and which you bring up. You read Frantz Fanon's book on,
"The Wretched of the Earth," when you read C. Wright Mills or you read
anybody who tries to analyze again the dynamics of religion, you always
notice that religion or any good movement will always have something out
here to shoot for which is almost unattainable. And what Christianity did
after Jesus Christ, I don't think Jesus Christ did this because he worked
with the lepers, and he worked with the prostitutes, and he worked with
the pimps, and he worked with all the people in the streets and tried to
alleviate their sufferings now. But what Christianity did, when it sold out in
313, was it said, well, you'll get in the hereafter suffer now.
00:37:55
And I think this is what Pike was attacking, and I think this is what a lot of
the people today are trying to attack. And I don't think Pike denies the
possibility of the hereafter. I want to believe in the hereafter, whether or
not is there, I don't know. But I think what we've got to get down to is to
tear this whole business of Christianity, the Salvation pill or whatever you
want to call it, and get rid of that, And start working out what does it mean
to live according to the tenets of Jesus Christ or God [inaudible] any of
these people now. Then you've got the real notion of salvation then you're
saved. As Reverend William says, then you're alive. If you don't have that
you're dead anyhow, you'd be better off physically dead. If you don't have
that beam in your eye, you don't have something to live for now.
00:38:44
[Reverend Evans] I think we're talking here about a road with two ditches
on the side that are pretty close together. I think we've been hearing an
ethical, that Christianity is ethics. I think ethics are involved in Christianity,
they've been left out. A kind of humanitarianism which I can't be a part of
because I don't have the ability. I'm just not the kind of guy that can, of in
my own accord, find the kind of strength and power that I feel necessary. I
find this in Christianity. That's my crutch or my bag, you know, you accept
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 16
me like that and just as I accepted someone else in their position. But I,
you know, I come back to a doctrine of the word which I think the Roman
Catholic Church is finally coming back to, and I take my cue not from an
intellectual kind of interpretation that I have to society.
00:39:40
I think as a church we've been in the ditch on the other side of the road
where we, as a Black church, which really was in a sense the tool of the
white colonial people. You know, this is how you kept the Black people in
line. The organization was the Black church and then a white man kept
him there. I'm talking about pie in the sky, and I can't buy this either and
somewhere there's a kind of tension between the two. I think as a church
we've been in a ditch on both sides of the road, but I think we find through
a shifting of emphases, from the time way back when, you know, it was a
relationship between God, the Father, and nature.
00:40:22
Some of the old colleagues of the church most of the horns of the unicorn,
protect me from, you know, all the storm and stress and the dangers of
nature. And I think we shifted to Jesus Christ sole relationship and the
whole thing in life which ultimately, to me, is extremely selfish if that's your
only concern about you know my salvation that's a part of it but it's not all
of it. And I think we were hung out there for a long time important as it is.
To neglect the third area which I think we find ourselves in right now or
coming into hopefully, that is a relationship between the Holy Spirit and
society. Our concern is not, you know, primarily for myself. I think, you
know, that my [inaudible] is taken care of that I don't have to worry about
that but I am led by the spirit now to serve the needs of people and and
this, to me, is not a humanitarian, ethical position only, but it's a total
relationship that I see, and this is where I find myself. I am comfortable
there, and I don't say this is where you have to be.
00:41:34
I think with a relationship to the word and the spirit at this point, cause I
can't make it by myself I don't think society can. I think the whole
humanitarian bit you know we don't have the time, we don't have the
ability, because we're, I think, pretty selfishly oriented and, you know, pull
ourself, you know, out of that bag, I don't think we can, and this is where I
sit.
00:42:11
[Audience member] Mr. Welsh, after Reverend Evans said, about the
strength that we simply do not get on our own accord, but that some
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 17
realized that they could only get through Christianity. You've gone to
seminary, and spent five years as a Catholic priest, obviously some
changes must have taken place in you. What I'm wondering is, did this
happen while you were a priest, or they did it happen all of a sudden and
caused you to leave the church, established Church?
00:42:58
[Ron Welsh] It's awfully hard to define or put right now where something
took place. My father's the greatest priest I've ever met. I'm the last of ten
children. I've got 47 nephews and nieces. He knows how to make people
happy. That was my basic notion of what it meant to be a priest, so I
wanted to be like my father, only I thought that to be clergyman, I could do
this on a grander scale, until I became a Catholic priest and realized the
politics involved. And I realized that two years before I was ordained when
I was down street preaching in the South. This was back in the, about
1961 or ‘62 when the Freedom Riders began so there was-- I went down
there to preach Jesus Christ as a Catholic and came back a Christian or a
follower of Jesus Christ on a much different version than I went down
there.
00:43:45
When I was living as a Catholic priest, I was sliced up and down one side
and another by the hierarchy in town here. As Bob says, they have a right
to stand what they stand for, I have a right to stand what I stand for. I
stand for the type of priest my father is. I couldn't be that, personally
speaking, and remain a Catholic priest without either becoming an insane
person and I mean that in the sick sense of the word, or a person who
would end up going out and killing because I thought something was doing
that much harm which I saw organized Christianity doing. And so it was a
process which began when I first thought about becoming a priest but
which climaxed when I saw the crystallization of the Catholic Church
especially, and saw that it was about to break down and move at least in
my time, when I had good years to serve.
00:44:37
[John Benson] I suppose you've asked this question with regard to
comparison between yourself and Father Groppi in Milwaukee. Do you
know him and could you tell us what his thinking is? Why has he decided
to remain within the institutional church?
00:44:58
[Ron Welch] So they said before, if you've got a situation inside where you
can be heard, and if you've got a power inside which can be used, you'd
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 18
be a fool to move outside of it as long as you're working at the same base
of things that we're working in. And Groppi is not as much a Catholic priest
as he is a national figure who happens to have a Roman collar. Now you
may say that which comes first, the chicken or the egg, I don't know, but
I'm saying for Groppi to pull out now, we would be losing somebody in the
movement. And so I wouldn’t want to see Groppi pull out if it gets to the
point where Groppi personally speaking can't take it as a Catholic priest,
then I want to Groppi to pull out, because I think too much of Groppi.
00:45:33
[John Benson] Does this mean there's a difference in the hierarchy in the
Milwaukee area compared with here?
00:45:40
[Ron Welch] Sure, they're scared. Our guys aren't scared yet. They don't
even know we got a problem in Minneapolis!
00:45:54
[John Benson] We have time for one or two more questions.
00:46:06
[Audience Member] I'm not, this can be addressed to anyone on the panel,
but I'm not exactly sure when my sentiments lie in regard to the
institutional church, but I do think that an institution in some cases is a
necessity and perhaps, maybe some degree, to the churches and
institutions is a necessity too. Now we can attack the church all that we
want to, but I would like to ask any of the members of the panel this: what,
basically, is wrong inside the institutional church which makes it, you
know, such a big block to anything that can move? Is it fair to say that
perhaps we have such a poor leadership that this is why the church isn't
moving at all?
00:46:48
[Ron Welch] I'll go all day and let them start. [laughter]
00:46:59
[Reverend Williams] I would like to say to, to try to answer that question. I
could talk about it the rest of the day, but to try to answer that question:
the good Christians of the church have failed to stand for what's right,
what's just. I don't know somehow or another, we get too much involved in
the beautiful building, we get too much involved in material things to
remember that we are all God's children. And I think when the church get
why it refuses to answer to the call of the poor, of the oppressed, to
answer to the call of any unjustice that’s being used or being done on any
individual. If the church refused to stand, it's dead anyway. So all you have
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 19
to do as one individual is to encourage others when, doesn't have to be
the Black, it could be the red, the white, but any unjust. The church don't
take no part, they don't concern me.
00:48:10
So the church is dead because don't nothing concern them but beautiful
buildings, beautiful pews. Well, I like beautiful things, but you must be
more concerned because the Church should be a service to the people,
and not the people serve the church.
00:48:32
[Reverend Evans] I think the church has always been dead, and in
unrealistic ways. I think we think of the church as institution, you know,
institutions aren't alive, buildings aren't alive. Only people are alive, and I
think using the church as the body of Christ and I think scattered
throughout the church, I think there are many, many people who are very
much alive and very much concerned. I think there are those who are not,
but I think the church tends, the institutional church, tends to take on the
kind of climate that, you know, we call Americanism or the American way
of life which says, you know, what really counts is that you produce.
00:49:14
I see my status symbol as one who can produce, you know, more bricks,
more dollars, and more people, and I think we measure people and we
measure programs whether they're inside or outside of the church
according to these kind of success stories, and I think we have to
recognize that the worthiness of people is not the fact that, you know, they
produce but rather that they exist. And this is my worthiness and I don't
think the church, I think it understands this, but it loses so easily the whole
concept and the commitment of people, period. And we get hung up in a
commitment to white people, and nice people, and successful people, and
good people and this is very comfortable and you end up, you know,
manipulating people.
00:50:03
I think it's a matter of commitment and you can't--I think there are
committed people in the church and there are many in they're in positions
of leadership, and yet and somehow it's so easy to get in the ditch where
we fall prey to the to the kind of materialism that permeates our society.
You see it in racism and everywhere, and I think it'll always be with it to
curse it and to damn it is to be unrealistic too. You call it, you know, a
spade a spade and yet we know a lot as Luther says, you know, don't
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 20
forget that, you know, there are only sinners in the church and I take that
pretty seriously because then I kind of fit.
00:50:55
[Ron Welch] [Inaudible] you got to know the hills. Before he knew the hills
he had to know the people. Before he, and along with knowing the people,
he had to also know his enemy. Castro listened well. The first good quality
of any leader is his ability to listen and to perceive. One of the problems
that's happened with Christianity is that the leaders have isolated and
insulated themselves, the people who run the churches. They've isolated
and insulated themselves from the people who they are to serve.
Remember the Last Supper, where Christ said, ‘now do you see what I've
done? You no longer call me master. I am your servant.’ Alright, if I am
really your servant, that means I listen to you and I speak for you if you
can't get up here.
00:51:34
You can't go talk to somebody up here. I speak for you, well that means
I've listened to you. Alright, I think we need institutionalized church,
meaning people coming together to form a body of power. Alright, then if
they have a spokesman that spokesman hopefully is well attuned to those
people. Then you've got a real church. That man is serving those people,
those leaders are serving those people.
00:51:58
Let's see, it comes down to what these two men said, we got into the
bricks and mortar thing and we forgot that the church was people. We
forgot the whole dynamic of a movement and we got into the
organizational, power crazy thing, and forgot what it was all about and
that's why what I said before it's got to be broken down so that you finally
get down to what we call the grassroots level. And then it will come again.
[Inaudible] institutional Church again I think it's beautiful.
00:52:21
It's happening all over. The hippies are part of it, the true hippies, the
Black Power people are part of it, the people of the far east are part of it,
the people in Cuba are part of it. It's happening, and I think that the last
word is what's important.
00:52:34
If you'll never notice Black people, they'll walk around and say, ‘what's
happening, brother?’ Alright, that's, when you ask people what's
happening, then you've got some reality of church taking place because
people are listening to people. Gwen Jones Davis, who was one of my
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 21
bosses, can listen to at least three conversations at one time, she's a
leader, she listens.
00:52:58
[John Benson ] The time has come for us to stop. We are all deeply
indebted to you for being with us, and before I give you a chance to
express your appreciation with a round of applause, I have these two
announcements. The Dudley Riggs Brave New Workshop is going to
present a one half-hour specially written particularly for this day at Melby
Hall 4:30, so about a half an hour. I emphasize that this is written by them
by, whether it's him or his group, especially for our day, so I would
encourage you all to go. And this evening the session with Milt Williams
[Mahmoud El-Kati] will begin at 6:30 out in College Center lobby, so again
thank--
00:53:53
[The recording cuts off]
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 22
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