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00:00
Eric Olson (Interviewer)
.. . kind of uh we were told by the woman who literary wrote the book um how to
do oral histories. And then I send a transcript to you.
00:11
Diane Pike (Narrator) Okay.
00:12
EO With a copy of this.
00:15
DP So I don't sign this?
EO Yeah I will send you a... Show more
1
00:00
Eric Olson (Interviewer)
.. . kind of uh we were told by the woman who literary wrote the book um how to
do oral histories. And then I send a transcript to you.
00:11
Diane Pike (Narrator) Okay.
00:12
EO With a copy of this.
00:15
DP So I don't sign this?
EO Yeah I will send you a copy of this.
DP Okay, sure, fine. No big deal I not worried I'm just like you said curious because I
teach methods.
00:20
EO Michael Lansing knows the ins and outs of the whole deal and basically they struck a
deal.
00:26
DP With the federal government?
00:27
EO Yeah If we follow this format and we adhere to a standard can we be exempt? Its on
the university, its like by university to agree.
00:42
DP Yeah good I learned something.
00:42
EO We can do that towards the end. SO what we are kind of being going over is your
role, like how did you get to Augsburg your role here.
00:54
DP Can we back up? Tell me what the course is and what the project is.
00:56
EO The course is oral history and we've been trying to gather for the archives an oral
history of Augsburg ...
1:02
DP Okay.
1:05
EO ... for the what is it? Sentential? The the, the ...
1:07
DP Yeah the 150th .
1:08
EO Yeah whatever goofy word it is. What they are looking to do is to get oral histories of
people on campus that they think would have an impact for future generations .
1:20
DP I've been here a long time. Who's old enough to do this?
1:25
EO There is a lack of oral histories in the archives so we have been trying to.
1:29
DP Cool.
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1:31
EO Gather more
1:32
DP So everybody in the class is doing interviews?
1:33
EO Yeah and the class is held once every two years so its been a slow kind of build cuz I
think there including Michael I think there might be nine people in the class. SO it's a
small class. So slowly over time we've been trying to add try to document and it gives us
practice in doing oral history.
1:52
DP Is it interesting? Do you like the course?
1:54
EO Yeah, yeah it's a public history course and as a historian its becoming really helpful
as I go forward in my teaching and learning how to interpret history outside of the
academia so for more of the general people, like the general public. It's been a lot of fun.
I've gotten a lot of good ideas. Met a lot of people from the history center we've brought
them in, in various aspects.
2:18
DP Cool
2:19
EO It's been great. Um, what I was planning to focus on just so that you have a game
plan is kind of how you got to Augsburg, um you've been, I was reading your bio and
kind of some background information on you. You've been kind of distinguished since
you've been here
2:37
DP I guess sure.
2:39
EO As a future teacher I started to look through some of the stuff your wrote and you
know so its kind of going to be more on the teaching area.
2:48
DP Oh sure I love to talk about teaching. I have opinions at all.
2:52
EO Yeah I am kind ofin the same boat as well. Yeah I'm okay just as student teaching.
2:57
DP Tum the frickin PowerPoint off
3:01
EO Yeah its gets fun when a teacher used PowerPoint and you come in and you don't use
PowerPoint and the students kind of look at you like what do we do? And you're like
3:10
DP if you want to show them a picture do it. If your standing there reading them text out
of the book, its not teaching.
3:18
EO So I will do my little introduction for the marker and the recording.
3:21
DP Okay. Great.
3:22
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EO Today is March 12th 2015
3:23
DP Is it on?
3:24
EO Yup, I put it on so that it would
3:28
DP So you heard all my snarky remarks up until this point okay great.
3:30
EO Yeah it will be cut out don't worry.
3:31
DP Yeah here we go snapchat.
3:33
EO Today is March 12th 2015. My name is Eric Olson and my narrator is Diane Pike and
we are at Augsburg College in Minneapolis Minnesota. Uh my first question for you
Diane is can you just kind of them me how you go to Augsburg?
3:48
DF Um I, I had a very linear path that not everybody is able to have in these days and
times. I went to college. I went to graduate school. I got married and my husband and I
were looking for two jobs in the same city. He got the job at 3M and I got the job at
Augsburg. Here we are.
4:06
EO What was your background in?
4:10
DF I'm a sociologist.
4:11
EO So your undergrad was in Sociology?
4:13
DF Sociology and anthropology, double major at Connecticut College.
4:16
EO What kind of was it more kind of wanting to teach that drew you towards?
4:21
DF I didn't know I wanted to teach until I got to graduate school. I went to graduate
school because I couldn't believe that someone would pay me money to study a
discipline that I was enthralled with. And um I just went to do the degree to do sociology.
I'm sad to say I really didn't have a plan. And um I would say probably around my third
year it became really clear to me that that I was going to have a lot more enthusiasm for
teaching than for research. Not that I don't think research, I mean I can do it and I think I
can do it well but you have instructional choices and if I were in a R I institution I would
be spending X amount of my time on research and with graduate students and Y amount
of my time on teaching undergraduates. If I came to a place like Augsburg or another
liberal arts college that proportion would probably be reversed.
5:15
EO Was there something, can you think of a in grad school that kind of like your "ah ha''
moment?
5:25
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DF Um I don't know if it was that "ah ha" moment. One of the opportunities I had. I
went to Yale for my PhD and Yale does not use the typical model for an R 1. The faculty
actually teach the courses. It's not a lecture and a gazillion TAs who are really teaching
the course. Um and that's part of why they do undergraduate education so well so most
graduate students don't teach their own courses or at least they didn't then. I still don't
think they don't. My daughter just graduated from there and she had courses taught by
professors not by graduate students and um uh even though we know that they can
sometimes be better than the profs. But one of the professors there actually a fairly
famous sociologist Donald Black was uh on sabbatical and he had probably one of the
most popular courses in sociology curriculum. The undergraduate major in sociology at
Yale is not like the undergraduate History major for example at Yale, which is awesome
and renowned. Um the graduate department was excellent but the undergraduate was
pretty luke warm and um it was the largest single course that they taught and he was
going to be on leave. SO they actually let me teach the sociology police course as a
graduate student as they instructor with graduate students helping me. So I had 120
students in that class. So um so in fact that in spite uh challenges and ups and downs that
went pretty well and I got buzzed on doing all that. I think that is certainly one of the
experiences I had that confirmed to me that this is really how I would like to spend the
bulk of my time in academia rather than I said what's that balance between teaching and
research and um that was, if that had gone poorly or if I had hated that I don't think that I
would have continued on that path. So that unusual opportunity I think kind of sealed the
deal on the kinds of instructions that I was primarily looking for when I went on the job
market. That said, I applied to every kind of institution on the job market. And I did have
an offer from an R 1 and I had an offer, excuse me, from a state place and I had the offer
from Augsburg.
7:50
EO Just so we can clarify what is an RI?
7:53
DP Oh sorry, that's code, academia code my apologies. Its academia code for research
institutions. So R ls are flagship research institutions like the University of Minnesota.
The Minnesota State System would be called an R 2. It's a way of tiering things. And
then you have comprehensive colleges that have master's degrees. Then you have pure
liberal arts colleges like McCalaster. So R 1s are large universities whose primary
mission is research .. They have graduate programs and law schools and med schools and
that sort of thing. Colleges do not.
8:27
EO Okay. Do you, you mentioned you kind of caught the teaching bug almost
accidentally. Like you were teaching the class and was there a ...
DP No, sorry go ahead.
EO Did you have any like teaching experience before then?
8:42
DP Um at Yale you were not allowed to be a TA until your third year so I think I must
have taught this course my fourth year. I just, its been so long I don't remember. Um
because they want you to do your own thing. And that's the one great things about being
in that program. It wasn't like you were a graduate student and your first semester you're
the TA for intro which is very typical at other schools. Its really about your own
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intellectual development. I had TA'ed, I think I TA'ed one or two courses and I TA'ed
other courses after I did that sociology of police course. I just can't quite remember. I was
in graduate school for six years. Um, I would have been done in five but my husband
who was working on his Ph.D. in physics had to start his dissertation over because um the
nuclear accelerator would not go to the energy levels that he wanted. So he about six
months in and then they had to change course. So I basically, intentionally slowed down
my progress, um but graduate school was different in the sense too because most people
got their degrees and then went out. Now people are staying longer in graduate school
because they are getting publications and they come with more. They stay longer but they
come out with more for their time. So its not atypical to see people to stay in six or seven
years. Um, so but I love school you know, so I think that was part. I loved being a student
so I think was part of loving thinking about being a teacher, staying in the classroom.
10:18
EO Was there a certain professor or teacher from your past that once you started teaching
you start kind of. .. ?
10:26
DP In graduate school?
10:27
EO that you tried to emulate in any way?
10:28
DP Um not in graduate school. My undergraduate faculty did try to emulate. I mean I
think they had certainly more of an impact on me as a teacher then my graduate faculty.
So I had two very good advisors in sociology at Connecticut College. Very different in
personality and type. Um both very fine sociologist and teachers. Um so I certainly
wanted to try to do what for my students what they tried to do for me.
10:55
EO What uh about those professors were you trying to uh ...
10:58
DP Mmmm, well like I said they were very different. Art Ferrari was um. So I graduated
from college in 1975. So he you know had a beard and he had long hair and he just kind
of, you know, was really cool. But he just, he was such a good sociologist and such a
good teacher in terms of posing questions and engaging discussion that made you want to
think about the answer to the question. And uh both of them gave us challenging stuff.
You know not big digestive textbooks but uh, excuse me, primary readings. Uh, excuse
me. And uh so I felt like I was really being challenged and being asked to rise to the
occasion about the work and the assignments that we were given. My um, excuse me, my
other advisor, Jerry Winter, he was an organizational sociologist and a theorist. And he
um he was really um. God, how do I describe him? He was very cynical but not in a way
that that like put you off and made you depressed but made you not just sit around and
just accept the world the way it was. And he was very effective in class as well because
like Art his ability to be able to get you to care about what you were talking about. And
I'm sure I couldn't articulate that when I was an undergraduate student. Uh but most of
my professional work at Augsburg has been in the scholarship of teaching and learning.
You know I was the director the Center of Teaching and Leaming here. So I have a
vocabulary to look on it back on now that I didn't have at the time.
12:56
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EO Now you don't, you didn't have any education classes of any kind. You were
13:00
DP Nope
EO a straight sociologist? How well do you think that impacted you not, sometimes
teachers get very muddled in and getting caught up in the standard format. Do you feel
that kind of being outside and being able to develop your own style and then coming to
teaching, do you feel like that helped you at all?
13:22
DP You mean opposed to the fact that I didn't have any education courses per se?
13:26
EO Yeah you didn't have an undergrad in education.
13:28
DP Yeah uh was that a benefit or a deficit, was that your question?
13:35
EO Yeah I um. Do you feel that it was a benefit not being in a teacher program and then
getting into teaching? Do you think that you
13:44
DP Yeah I do. First of all because it means that what I know is sociology right? Uh the
good fortune I had that when I showed up to Augsburg it was the year that the college
had gotten its first faculty development grant. And Norman Nueman, uh the director of
that grant and a faculty member in political science uh asked me to be involved in that
grant by being the grant assessor kind of thing. And thanks to her I very early on got
linked up with faculty development. Now there is some overlap with teacher education
and faculty development but they are not the same thing. So my hypothetical question,
and I say this with all due respect because um, with all due respect because I really
admire my colleagues in education but I would say this as a sociologist about the
disciplines if teacher preparation and teaching about teaching is so significant then you
would expect the quality of teaching in education departments to be significantly higher
than the quality of teaching in non-education departments. And that's an empirical
question. Are all the good teachers in the education departments? Are all the good college
teachers in the education departments? And I don't see any evidence. They look to me
like a normal department. Some people are really good. Some people could be better.
Some people are, you know whatever. And let me say that generally and not about my
colleagues whom I respect here. But I think it does say something what we think is
necessary in order to be effective. SO what helped make me a really good teacher, and
clearly when I did that police course and when I did that TA course I had really positive
experiences. I had positive reinforcement and good feedback and I love doing it. I still,
even after 33 years, I love prepin' for class. I love thinking about what we are going to
do. And then I like going to class. And um but faculty development to the best of my
understanding from, we've had students major in soc and social science thing, so I know
a little bit from the outside. And I've read some stuff that um, you know because I'm
teaching adults so I don't wanna pretend to um to say anything about how well they
prepare teachers to teach elementary school. I'm talking about teaching in college in that.
Um, you know it's not about my lesson plan really. Or maybe lesson plan is a word for
you know what do you want to do and what you want students to understand and what's
going to be a really effective way to do that. So faculty development is um I think linked
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and we've learned a lot from the education people. But they're not synonymous. Um so I
think the thing that has helped me be a better teacher has been the fact that the
scholarship of teaching and learning is my professional area as a sociologist. And so I'm
really we keep hiring people who are really good in history or chemistry or biology but
they don't know squat about teaching. But I'm like, "But that's the job right? Isn't the job
teaching?" And uh higher education is built on this notion that as long as you know your
subject matter everything else will just kind of work itself out and that's just not
empirically true.
17:13
EO Now you have been nominated for distinguished faculty three times I believe was on
yourbio.
17:20
DP At Augsburg?
17:21
EO At Augsburg.
17:22
DP Yeah when they used to have student awards. Yup.
17:26
EO When did you actually receive those awards? Do you remember?
17:28
DP Oh it was early on. It was in the 80s and 90s. Cuz then they stopped giving the
student awards. So I have, I have a Distinguished Contributions to Teaching Award from
the college. I, in 2012, won the highest teaching award that the American Sociological
Association gives. So you know its kind of what I do.
17:50
EO That was kind of my seg-way into the next questions. That was perfect. No that's
fine.
17:55
DP Uh sorry. No it was very thrilling. I mean the stuff from the students is very
meaningful and when I first came here the senior class would vote for the two honored
faculty members and they decided it was a popularity contest or it wasn't a popularity
contest so the students don't have any input into that anymore. So that's a student
government project for somebody.
18:16
EO Do you feel that is something that should be brought back?
18:20
DP Um ... I don't know. I mean its good for one's ego. And there is a lot of ego involved
in teaching and I think that people lie, right, if they say "Oh I don't you know". Does it
bother me if someone hates my course? You bet. You know I, it bothers me for two
reasons. It bothers me because I feel like you this isn't what's best for the students and
they are being let down in some way. Maybe sometimes because I'm not doing what I
want to do but it can also be because you know not everyone is the right fit for every
student. And I think that there is benefit from students trying to learn in courses where
they don't like the professors, assuming the professors competent right. Right, we aren't
talking about people who don't know what they are doing. Right, urn. Just as a professor
has to learn to work with and understand students who are like them and students who are
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veiy different from them. You know, its really a two way thing. So I learn when I work
with a student that's having a hard time or doesn't really like the course or doesn't click
with me. Just as I think students should say "Well I don't like Professor So-and-so" but
they are competent and how am I going to make this a situation where I'm gonna learn to
the best of my ability.
19:35
EO Now we don't have the student nominated awards anymore at Augsburg but there are
websites like ratemyprofessor, do you ever kind of go on there ...
19:45
DP No. I looked on there once when it had been out there for about 6 months and there
was one about me and it said, "You know she gets really upset but if you do the work it's
really good." Okay? Now if you do, that was the up shot. I've heard that before and it
makes me feel bad and sad and okay at the same time. So I had a McNair student I was
working with a couple of years ago she came in and said "I was just telling this group of
people I was working with you and they said uh Diane Pike, you know, she is like so
mean." And I've heard that and no one wants to be thought of as mean, but every time
I've heard that Eric I've said what, even when a student has said "Well I know this isn't
what I want". Well tell me why right. And every time they say the same thing right. And
I said to them "Why did they say that?" They said its because you get really mad if they
don't do the work. And I thought you "Yup! That's true." And if that's a sophomore's
definition of mean that they come in and they have a million reasons they haven't done
this, you know. I'm not their friend. I'm not going to say it's fine. Now that's totally
different from, you know, we've watched this student and they've had personal traumas
and I'm very open and flexible, I mean I'm not talking about that. But this other stuff
about I had to go to work and I didn't have time and its too much reading, you know,
nobody ever rises to a low bar.
21:16
EO Set the bar high and have people come up.
21:18
DP You've got to set the bar high and you've got to give them a way to get there. Um, so
I do have this reputation I think and one never knows reputation fully but I've been here
around long enough that she's really hard or she's really demanding or she's really mean
because I'm not the "Oh I'm so sorry Eric that you couldn't, you know. I have colleagues
like that. Any excuse in the storm and students don't want to feel, um you know, feel
some sort of negativity when they haven't met their obligations. And I meet mine, you
know. I'm prepared for every class. I start on time. I end on time. I work my butt off. And
I kind of expect the same of them unless its you know life is more important right? But
most of the she's mean comes from the students are like "Well you know I got behind
and she gave me a, didn't cut me any slack." Well yeah, that's true.
22:15
EO If you makes you feel any better, I deal with that as well. And its always kind of you
know, is there something going on? Or did you just not do the work?
22:24
DP Right. Right.
22:25
EO Typically you can tell.
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22:27
DP Yup, yup.
22:28
EO Has that been a change or has that been fairly constant your entire time here?
22:30
DPNo.
22:33
EO You said you've been here 33 years?
22:34
DP I think that's to your earlier question because I went to schools were the bar was
really high and nobody wanted to listen to you wine about how you couldn't get your
work done.
22:44
EO Is that part what makes you think you are an effective teacher? Is that you do set the
bar high and then scaffold them up to it?
22:50
DP If my view of an effective teacher is one where the students learn and they have a
positive affective experience around that learning. And that doesn't mean they don't read
something that makes them uncomfortable or have to work really hard or I don't know
these words. Well look them up sweetie. You know, that's what you need to do. Um, so
for me effective is the, is the context in which students learn more rather than less. And
um, so I think in that sense that hasn't changed very much over the course of my
teaching. I think that's always been interested in.
23:34
EO Has the student mentality, there is usually a lot of talk well this new generation
doesn't think the same way. In your opinion ...
23:43
DP Oh my god, you should read my paper. Do you want to read my paper? I send it to,
I'll give it to you when you leave. I wrote a paper when I was president of the Midwest
Sociological Society and its called the "Tyranny of Dead Ideas in Teaching and Leaming.
And the first one is the tyranny of this notion that students are not just as good as they
used to be. And I'm like get over it because you got the students you got and what are
you going to do? And, and bemoaning that they're not, first of all I'm not sure that its
empirically true that the students long ago. They might have quieter or they might have
had different issues but there is no empirical evidence necessarily to show. Although
there are some differences. I mean said in class the other day when I first came here
diversity was whether you were an Anderson or a Peterson. For real right? And then
about three years ago I looked around in my Intro to Soc class and I realized that white
students were the minority in that group of 25 students. I had Hmong students, Asian
American students, Native Americans, Hispanics, and you know, a lot of people from the
a East African community and it was awesome. I mean I teach sociology and I see that as
a good change. So the people in front of me are different then the people I had in front of
me in 1985. Um, but the task is the same. Right? How do you take the students in front of
you and help them to learn things you think will benefit them to know?
25:11
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BO SO do you kind of every year kind of gauge, I mean in my opinion an effective
teacher understands and adjusts the learning to help. Is that ...
25:22
DP I mean I think, I mean I don't think I sit down and say well are they going to be more
narcissistic than last year or whatever. I do a much better job and have for the last 15 or
20 years than I did in the beginning of trying to get a better sense of whose in the room
right. What do they already know? I'm not a "Let's design this course together" person.
I'm not a "We're going to build the syllabus together" kind of person. Which is not to say
students should not have choice right, and options but um, if they are going to do it all on
their own then they don't need to pay me any money right? So that balance within that.
But I do try to pay a lot of attention to whose in the room and what are they bringing in
and tailor examples or just be aware of those things cuz I think that helps. There are a lot
of barriers to learning for students. But I don't think deal with those barriers by lowering
the bar. You might change something about the bar or you might, you know I love the
CLASS program but I think if a students needs an extra hour and they do fine I'm like
"Yeah" you know what. But I was in a meeting probably IO years ago with a colleague in
a not to be name other department and they were talking about how stressed out the
students were because students do work more now and students do. Some of the students
seem to put their social life higher on the list than others. And, um, but a lot of its stress
and parents wait until freshman year to divorce and students die and things happen, you
know it is. It is really hard. Um, but this colleague said "I've realized that my students so
much other thing going on in their lives that I've decided to reduce the amount of work I
ask them to do." She said that in a room full of faculty and I'm just like ... You know and
she was trying to be nice right. She was trying to be responsive to the students but I was
appalled you know. Its one thing to say I am going to think about this differently or I'm
going to rearrange the assignments differently or you know I'm going to give them more
supports or you know, I'm gonna take that into account on how I do it but I'm not gonna,
I'm not gonna like asked them to learn less. So.
28:03
EO Um, if you could, could you tell me about your work on teaching effectiveness and
student engagement. That's part of your bio that I kind of wanted to hit on.
28:13
DP Yeah so can you ask me something specific I mean ...
28:16
EO Well how has it, I was looking at all this stuff and you've talked about student
engagement you know. You mentioned no PowerPoints and I've always been curious on,
not unconventional ways but kind of more engaging ways. Because it's a problem I see
even at the K-12 level that there's an engagement issue. So I'm just wondering if you
have, you've been teaching for a long time. You've done fairly well. From everything I
could find out about you. So I'm just wondering if what about teaching, like what for a
future teacher well what advice would you give them to be effective and get students
more engaged?
28:57
DP Sure. Um, part of the advice I would give would be well, it kind of depends. If you
are talking about college teaching and K-12 I think I would have different advice.
29:10
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EO Lets start with college.
29:11
DP Yeah cuz I really don't know what I'm talking about. Although there is some very
good stuff from the high school teachers. I went to a workshop that had college
professors and high school teachers and it was really good because it raised the snooty
college professors views of um, what some wonderful things high school teachers were
doing that we could learn from. And then the opposite happened too. Right, the high
school teachers had a lot better understanding what the students needed to be able to do
when they got into the college classroom. So it was kind of a win-win and everybody felt
better about everybody. But you know I'm not an expert in that area. Um, I think it goes
back first of all to what we were talking about is that you have to pay some attention to
whose in the room. Now my teaching is informed by the fact that I'm a sociologist not
because I teach sociological topics but because as a sociologist, right. I understand
teaching and learning to be an interdependent relational social process. And I don't really
care what part of your brain lights up when X, Y, or Z happens. I'm interested in on how
social context influences motivation, right. I will give you this article, you don't have to
read it but one of the things I rant on is about using points to grade things right. Points are
an extrinsic motivator and one of the things that happens when, my argument is, when
you use points is two things happen. It turns students into grade grubbers. It turns them
into point grubbers because they know if I can talk you into one more point then I would
be an 89 and I would be a 3.5 blah blah blah. So I don't use points. Um, and my grades
are, we give 3.0s, 3.5s right. So if you write a paper it's excellent. That's a 4.0. You
know, I don't have to mess with that. Your 4.0 paper is a 98 but your 4.0 paper is a 95.
And at some point that is going to make a difference. I think it implies a quantitative
methodology that is not in fact quantitative. That most faculty say "Oh this is pretty good
85 points right?" So I really dislike points for that but I think engagement and students
are so different there needs to be a blend of extrinsic and intrinsic motivations. And so I
take attendance and I tell people if they are not here there is a learning going on and if
you miss a whole bunch of classes that's going take its toll. Um, I have colleagues that
think that as long as you get a good grade on the exams and papers its fine. I think that's
absolute bullshit. If I thought that you education at Augsburg was fully captured simply
in your exams and papers I think I would be missing the boat. And so if the education is
more than just your points on your exams and papers then your experiences, your
responsibilities in the classroom, your connection with the other people when they put
their phones down long enough you know, which they don't get out in my class as you
can imagine. Um, that's part of the education and the learning process. So thinking about
having an array of things some of which are extrinsic. This has to be done and if its not
there are these consequences and some people will be motivated by that. But then also the
motivation by your responsibilities to the other students. My expectations, um, making a
lot of effort to try to think of the kind of readings that they do. Or being more, one of the
things I've been trying to do the last couple of years is to be, probably longer than that.
One of the things I keep working at is trying to be more explicit in advance in telling
students why I'm asking them to do what I'm asking them to do. That goes a long way
for engagement right. Well as opposed to just do this right. And I'm a pretty good
lecturer. I can be funny sometimes. I'm pretty smart. And I think all those things can help
and I love what I do right. So the faculty development literature is pretty clear about
12
things that make a different right. The ability to generate enthusiasm, competence in
content, organizational skills, and effective delivery. It's a performance in part. Now
exclusively and not every teacher is a performer teacher. I mean you can be a really good
teacher with lost of different kinds of personal styles. Absolutely. However, whatever
your style competence in the content, organization, effective delivery, and demonstration
of why this matters cut across whatever style. Whether they're loud or quiet or jumping
around the room <loin' other stuff. Those things really feed into engagement. And when I
walk by classrooms on my way to class and I walk through Oren and every single
classroom is the lights are off, the screen is on, there's text on the slide. To be fair maybe
they're just doing it for five minutes and their turning it off. But you're a student. There
are too many classes where thafs the. If two slides are good well why aren't 20 slides
better? Images, maps, data visuals great, right. But text, not so much. And the research is
pretty clear on that. When they do research on PowerPoint for example, which is one of
my little hot buttons, um and its not teachers' fault. Right, in the 80s we gave people
stipends to put their lectures on PowerPoint. We paid people to do it. And for some
people it was great because they were way more organized then you know, the stream of
consciousness that they were doing before. So I don't blame them it just turned out it
didn't work out the way we thought. And two things happen right. If you asks us, people
used to say to me when I was director of the Center of Teaching and Leaming and I do a
lot of teaching stuff in sociology. So the other thing is being a sociologist has made me
really effective in assessment and engagement curriculum. That kind of stuff. And being
in faculty development has really helped me advance my career in sociology. So I've
been really, really lucky with that. But what students will tell you two things. Do you
want PowerPoint slides? Yes they do. They want PowerPoint slides because they are the
teachers notes. Of course they want PowerPoint slides cuz then I don't have to write
anything down right. And then the number one word that most students use about
PowerPoint in college teaching is what?
36:02
EO Mine is usually death.
36:05
DP Yeah and what the B word for death? But not for death. What's another way of
saying that? The number one word students choose to describe PowerPoint use in the
classroom is boring.
36:17
EO Oh okay sorry.
DP We are on the same page. So I tell my colleagues right, yes they want them but they
also find them boring, so stop using them you know. Or post them. If you want to post
because you think they'll have good notes on them go ahead. But stop standing to the
side of screen and in a dark room, turning like this and reading what's on the screen. It
just doesn't work. Its just not engaging. It works a little right, but its not engaging. And
its also depends to on what your clear, one of the greatest things that happen to me as a
teacher is years ago, Bruce Rickenbacker whose retired a couple a years ago, a
philosophy professor brought the campus Bloom's Taxonomy and started doing all this
stuff on critical thinking back when it was kind of coming in vogue. And the Bloom's
Taxonomy thing is not rocket science. Its not the only model in the world but it made me
clearer. You know? Its like oh man this is a knowledge compression question and what I
13
really want them to do over here is synthesis and evaluation. It made me clearer so I
could be clearer for the students and it was really super helpful. So when I put you in a
group I can, you know I don't put you in a group and say what did you think of the
reading. You put them in a group where you say," Okay your first job is comprehension.
Talk about what you think the author is saying. Then we can process that. Then we can
about whether you agree with him or not. And why you agree with him or not or what
links to the theory or the other things we've been talking about. So I'm really grateful to
my colleagues cuz you know, whether it's Bloom's Taxonomy or some of the technology
stuff. I mean I love being able to show video clips. I love being able to a show a map if
we are looking at something. But you put the map up, talk about it, and then you tum the
sucker off. Because when I'm talking about something I think is relevant I want people to
look at me. And that's why phone, laptops are a disaster in classes. You know, of course
I'm happy to accommodate anybody who needs the accommodation that's not the issue
but this idea you know, St. Paul Public Schools bought all those iPads and they have no
fricken idea what to do with them. The newspaper said, I'm screaming in the kitchen,
they bought like 40,000 iPads. Next year they are going to figure out how to train the
teachers. How about we figure out what we need the technology to do and then we have
the teachers tell us and then we go buy the iPads. How about that? Because the last thing
I would want if I was a high school teacher is a bunch of people sitting there with an
iPads in front of them. What the hell is the point of being in the room together? And they
don't have a clue. And I love St. Paul Public Schools. My kids all went to St. Paul Public
Schools. They all went to Central. I'm a happy taxpayer but this iPad thing is just ...
because they don't know why they want them other than you are suppose to have
technology. And I think Augsburg's future continues to be, the promise is about high
touch, the kind of relationship you have with Mike, or the other people in the faculty.
That's what your education is about right. Its not about your score on your last test. I
would suggest.
39:33
EO So with more, not more and more, but kind of a trend is you are getting a lot more
content online and kind of that connection to the professor is sometimes getting a little
more distant how do you feel about kind of the engagement level when more stuff is put
online.
39:58
DP Honestly it just depends. Right, if you're a seasoned professional nurse and you need
to get masters degree in nursing to be able to advance in your career and there is a
significant chunk of that you can do online that's probably fine if you are that kind of
learner okay. 18-year-old Eric Olson, I don't think so. Right? And when I say to people
is, "Okay if you would like your child to get their college education sitting on their laptop
in your basement, go ahead." But its not what most people want right. So I really think it
has to be nuanced. I think it depends on whether you're um, a more narrow professionally
focused thing, it depends on the style of the learner, the depends on the age of the learner,
um, so there is place for that but that doesn't mean everybody should go to ASU and take
one of their 70 online courses. Because we don't have any idea what a college educated
group that's been college educated online looks like. We don't know yet. I could be
completely wrong. But I will wait tables before I will teach an online course. Because its
not what I signed up for. Its not what I signed, it's a really different job to me. I'm not
14
going to judge anybody, to me, I have colleagues that teach online and they Jove it. Why
do, sometimes I love it because I can do it in my pajamas. Where there is a good
intellectual reason for it. They love because it gives people who don't have access access.
I'm all over that, but instead of this? No. If it's that or nothing, absolutely. If its lets shut
this down and do that instead, I don't think so. But, you know, that's, I read the chronicle
a lot. I'm very interested in the fact that right now, in all of education but particularly in
higher education, the answer to every problem in higher ed, and there are certainly
problems. There are things that need to be fixed big time. And I can be right in the front
of the line telling you this isn't working, this isn't working, but when I read the Chronicle
the answer to everything is digital learning. And I'm not swallowing it. I think the wrong,
I don't think they are wrong about the problems but I think they are wrong about the
solutions and they are very surface solutions about what technology. And most of the
people hold that opinion don't teach face to face and so they don't know what will and
will not work. SO what they do is give them multiple choice, standardized test at the end
and there is no statistically significant different between the intro class and the online and
face-to-face. And they say, "See they are the same." And I'm like "No they not the same.
So, um, but there are pockets in places where that kind of technology is really good stuff
with problem-based learning and using technology. I mean it's totally an asset. It's just
not an asset the way a lot of people are trying to force it on things. So it's not an antitechnology, anti-luddite thing, it's a be really clear about what problem you are trying to
solve here because I think there is a lot of assertions that nobody has any evidence for,
they're just guessing what the impact is going to be. They used to have keyboarding in
elementary schools and all these computers. Well maybe you don't have to have, maybe
the most important in second grade isn't that right. The most important thing in second
grade is how nice your teacher is. Because that's what going to motivate you to learn if
you are a second grader. So anyway what else you got?
43:46
EO You've kind of touched on this as you've talked. You've talked about how
PowerPoints are misused a lot of the time, there is text up there. And kind of looking
forward Smartboards are kind of like the iPad of the whiteboard. Its becoming the next
evolution.
44:05
DP You know I don't use a Smartboard so tell me how they're being used.
44:11
EO A Smartboard is basically a digital whiteboard and from my experience from what
I've seen is they're being used exactly the same way as a whiteboard. So they've
basically, instead of writing on it they type it up ahead of time.
44:33
DP So a Smartboard is typed?
EO Yeah. You plug your computer into it. I mean you can still draw on it with the
markers. They have special markers for it that you can draw and it will save onto the
computer. But my experience has been sitting in different classrooms its used kind of like
your viewpoint on PowerPoint its really good if you know how to use it. So I'm just
wondering with all this one-to-one that St. Paul has done and the district I'm working in,
that's their move next year to have Chromebooks for every student. Is that kind of a fear
that you have? Maybe not for you but for the future of higher ed that students are going to
15
come and they don't have kind of the personal relationship you develop by closing the
device.
45:21
DP Yeah, yeah um, I don't know if I am afraid of it. I think that its not clear its going to
work the way people think. I think there's a pretty high probability it might work out
differently. So today in methods right, we did a bunch of stuff. I did some direct
instruction as you guys would say for a little bit and then we did this cool reading about
this book called "On the Firelinen which is an ethnography of wild fire fighters in
Arizona. He has a methodical appendix where he talks about being a fire fighter and then
studying his fellow fire fighters and all that kind of stuff. And they got into three groups
and they each had a different task. One groups was to talk about what made this really
good writing and how it was set up. The other group was supposed to talk about what
made it good sociology. And the third group was to talk about the strengths and the
methodology. And then after they did that, this is a junior level class, they went up and
each wrote their things on the board and at the end everybody got their phone and took a
picture.
46:25
EO Yeah my phone I'm able to take a picture and make a PDF.
46:28
DP And I don't do that every time but I said, "Lets go through this. Don't bother to try
and copy all these down just take a picture at the end and then you'll have it for you
notes. So technology great, helpful better use of your face-to-face time then watching
them copy it down. Although I'm a big believer in note taking and margin notes. And the
research is starting to show that margin notes help because people are doing surface
reading which is what PowerPoints are. They're surface reading and maybe the
Smartboard is the idea is that if you can write on there and add on it, you can add to that.
But um, the first question is why are you using it in the first place right? What is it that
you want them learn? Not thinking I've got this Smartboard, now I have to figure out
how to learn it. So I don't know. Um, yeah, no I mean the change is underway and um, I
do, highly suspect of hyperbolic, brick and mortar schools will be gone. Well they just
indicted some for profit school for scamming students. I mean as bad as, well it depends
on your point of view. As bad as the retention, something like 57% of students who start
as a freshman in traditional age freshman in college have graduated within five years.
Like 57%. Um, its higher at Augsburg. Its 95% at Carleton or whatever but you know
two thirds maybe of people who start finish. So you know we got to fix that. Why go to
school for two years and blah, blah, blah, blah. The completion rate at for profits is like
22%. And they've taken their money and you know. I'm a organizational sociologist so if
you are a for profit company your first obligation is to your shareholders. And that's
required by law. All the decisions have to take that into account first and I don't mean,
are there good people who work at these places, who love students? Absolutely. But I'm
talking about the organizations legal responsibilities. And once you are in a for profit
world, game changer. And I would argue with people on that for a long, oh its just the
same to go to a for profit. That is absolute crap. Because the decision making is made by
a different sociological force. So anyway.
48:53
EO Well that's all I have for you.
16
48:55
DP Okay.
48:58
EO Try to figure out how
DP Do you want me to print out the paper?
49:00
EO Uh yeah if you would. That would be
49:05
DP You don't have to read but I would be
EO Oh trust me
DP I would be really interested in ...
END OF RECORDING.
Show less
Inteniew with Garry Hesser
Inteniewed at Augsburg College, Oren Gateway Center 106A
Minnerpolis, MN
Interviewed on March 4o 2015
Augsburg College Oral History Project
Interviewed by Heidi Heller
Please note that the
narator, Garry Hesser, requested
of additions and edits to the final
tran... Show more
Inteniew with Garry Hesser
Inteniewed at Augsburg College, Oren Gateway Center 106A
Minnerpolis, MN
Interviewed on March 4o 2015
Augsburg College Oral History Project
Interviewed by Heidi Heller
Please note that the
narator, Garry Hesser, requested
of additions and edits to the final
transcript before it was approved. These edits resulted in a tanscript that varies in a number of
places from the recorded interview. The changes do not change the context of the interview, but
serve to clarify, expand upon and enhance various items discussed in the oral history interview.
a number
GH: Garry Hesser
HH: Heidi Heller
HH: The following interview was conducted with Garry Hesser on behalf of the Augsburg
College Archives for the Augsburg College Oral History Project. It took place on March 4, 2015
at Augsburg College. The interviewer is Heidi Heller. Alright, so my first question is how did
you get interested in sociology.
GH: I was a history major as an undergraduate. I used to ridicule my Sociology major roommate
because history dealt with specifrcity, and sociology, only offered sweeping generalizations that
everybody knew. I think probably that the sociological perspective came later, as I attended
Union Theological Seminary in New York where two of my favorite professors in social ethics
and education used sociology and sociological theory as a framework for what they did which
was my introduction into sociology. To make a long story short, I wanted to do a graduate degree
in Human Relations at New York University. New York University accepted me, but didn,t want
to offer me any money and we had a baby on the way. But Notre Dame, in a fit of generosity,
thanks to the federal govemment and National Defense Education Act, had received some major
scholarship money for graduate students in the sciences. So, in a sense, Notre Dame '.bought me
off'to become a sociologist. The degree I was going to do at NYU was a joint Sociology and
Psychology degree. But Notre Dame offered the scholarship, and we lived in South Bend
already. So, to make a long story short, I was always interested in sociology because of those
seminary professors, and I had also become increasingly involved in civil rights, fair housing and
issues related to social inequality. sociology is focused on that kind of interest, but it never
occurred to me that, without a sociology undergraduate degree, that any school would accept me
for graduate work, but Notre Dame did because ofa unique set of circumstances. They were
seeking a cohort ofus that didn't have sociology undergraduate degrees. They were trying to
compete with Chicago and Berkley by attracting older and more experienced professionals. So I
became a sociologist almost in the back door. I was bought and glad ever since. [laughter]
HH: Ok.
So you had your Masters of
Divinity before you got your Masters?
GH: Right, I had an undergraduate degree from Phillips University, a school like Augsburg, in
oklahom4 with majors in History, Religion, and Philosophy. I went to seminary and was serving
Page2ofl5
(Disciples of Christ) congregation in South Bend, India''a. That is how Notre
Dame, which was there, came into my life.
a Christian Church
HH: Ok, alright.
So how did you discover an interest in experiential leaming and service based
leaming?
GG: Um, probably since I was bom. I was bom into a family of educators. My father was a Boy
Scout leader and volunteer; and so Boy Scouts became, along with the church, central to my life.
And you don't do Boys Scouts, whether it's Indian dancing, like I did, or become an Eagle
Scout, camping and hiking, without becoming experiential; it's almost at the core. But, to be
more specific, you don't go into something applied like the church ministry without being very
experientially oriented. I was up to my eyeballs in civil rights and issues like that with local
priests and activists, so my own leaming curve and my own learning process was always very
experiential. And when I went to graduate school and had to teach a class as part of my training,
my colleague and I, who also stayed in serviceJeaming/experiential education for many years,
desiped it with an interactive game, SIMSOC, in the class. We were labeled "Sesame Street"
sociologists. fiaughted And then, in summers I worked with OEO projects, as part of the War on
Poverty to support my family, doing community-based service related projects. But probably
more specifically, when I started teaching at the College of Wooster, my job included being the
director of Urban Studies. We had six sites around the country in Detroit, Philadelphia, Portland
where students would do an urban semester. The students went there and were involved in
service and govemment related intemships. Now we would probably call most of what they did
"community serviceJeaming," because it was basically community-based, experiential leaming
in challenging urban settings. Then they retumed to a small town, Wooster, Ohio, much like
Northfield, with a reverse "culture shock." Two of them, Don and Margie, literally walked into
my office and confronted me with: "You sent us offto the big world. Now we're back in this
place and have changed. What are you going to do with us?" They basically challenged me and
my wife and our two children, four and two, to live with them in a student-faculty livingJeaming
arrangement. And we did, thanks to the students pushing us. We organized a communitycentered livingJeaming anangement involving two houses. It was called the "community service
house." We designed a course on the topic of "community" together, and we lived with students
for the entire year. We would have continued, but we wound of getting pregnant again and had
twins. And four children was little bit too much for continuing. So, in a nut shell that experience,
that kind of conversation and collaboration with students was a lot like what was happening here
at Augsburg in the late 1960s and early 70s with Joel Torstenson and the emergence of HECUA.
I was also on the faculty advisory committee in the urban semester program in Philadelphia
which brought me into contact with other faculty involved in this emerging experiential
education focus on community engagement and service. Overall, it was second nature for me,
but it was also because of circumstances and students pushing and saying'Now what are you
going to do with us", because at that point, except for these urban locations, Wooster didn't have
an intemship program. So we were making it up as we went along within the context of the
Wooster's commitment to these six urban sites where they were sent to study for a semester.
HH:
Were there a lot of colleges at that time doing that or where there a few kind of at the
forefront?
Page 3
of
15
GH: Not many, but it was starting to emerge when I became involved in the early days. But this
was a second generation establishment of serviceJeaming in higher education. I later discovered
it was really during the 60's that colleges, including Augsburg's role in founding HECUA - the
Higher Education Consortium for Urban Affairs. Joel Torstenson was among that first wave of
people during the 60's when much of this started. If you think about this in context, there was the
opposition to the war in Vietnam, and the Civil Rights movement was still evolving. For
example, the sit-ins were in 1960. There was a lot ofdiscontent on campuses that was starting to
take shape in different ways, and different campuses embraced that. The 4-l-4 Academic
calendar was one invention, so colleges could be free for a January term of exploratory, usually
experiential, courses. That was the original idea, but it evolved in not very create ways later.
Even then, we would say in those days "Experiential leaming education was still marginal."
And in that 1970's context, it is accurate to say that I am at Augsburg because of differing
opinions about experiential education in higher education. I didn't get tenure at Wooster.
Paradoxically, the college where I was involved in the community service, student-faculty
leaming community and community-based research with students, which made me recognized as
a pioneer in serviceJeaming, made a decision based on traditional criteria for what they wanted.
Even though I was doing a lot of faculty research and publishing, they made a decision that the
kind of scholarship I had embraced did not fit with their priorities for tenure. As a result, I lost
and somebody else won the tenure prize. Bu! not to be bitter, I am gratefirl for that for that loss.
[laughter] But that was an indicator that experiential education and serviceJeaming were not
mainline, even in liberal arts colleges; it was still marginal. The urban quarter programs at
Wooster were valued, but seen as something extra, though commendable, if you had time. Does
tlat make sense?
HH: That makes
sense. So, when you came
in 1977 to Augsburg was it because you didn't get
tenure?
GH: That's correct, yes.
HH:
Was there any other things that drew you here to Augsburg?
GH: The job description certainly. A good friend looked at it with me and said "They wrote this
job description for you." I was looking for ajob because ofthe tenue decisioq so I felt lucky to
see this one that fit so well. On a personal level, I'd also just gone through a divorce, so we also
needed to make a change and find an urban location where my former wife could find employmint. we were co-parenting as well. smdl towns usually are not too easy to do all that in. And
so, there were whole lot of things about the Augsburg position that were attractive. And the more
I found out about it and discovered what Joel rorstenson had been doing, including the HECUA
consortium, I was eager to come here and work in academic arrangements that were so similar to
my wooster work with the urban semester programs, but with more experiential education.
Augsburg was looking for a sociologist to be chair ofthe urban studies program and that is the
role I played at Wooster. So, yes, it was kind of a match made in heaven for me and many people
think it was mutual. It couldn't have been better and more timely. And another side story. It was
a real accident of history, because Joel rorstenson was forced to retire at 65. I gotthisjob
because of another form of discrimination. You had to retire at the age of 65 in those days, or he
Page 4
of
15
would have, I am sure, stayed on and done even more creative work like I was able to do after
65. But because he had to retire, and the college saw the role he played as cenfral to its mission,
Augsburg did a national search and hired me a year earlier than his retirement so I could work
with him for a year. And due to another strange accident, made possible by Bob Grams taking an
unpaid leave, it became possible financially, which usually wasn't the case for Augsburg. so I
was able to come a year early, at precisely the time I needed a job
HH:
So everything lined up.
GH: The stars were aligned in stange a1d unFredictable ways. I walked into a position marked
by two realities: the faculty had decided, which the wooster faculty had not, that experiential
educatioq including intemships, were important for urban studies majors, but also for all
students at the college. I like to say that "Joel and the faculty set the table, and I have been
feasting at that table ever since."
HH:
So
it was, at Augsburg, it was a campus wide sort of thing; it wasn't just in the sociology
departnent?
GH: oh, absolutely. In fact, tlat was what was brilliant about it. Joel, the sociology professor,
started the sociology Deparfinen! Social work, urban Studies, and HECUA. In 19t7, he got a
sabbatical leave and traveled around the country. He and Frances visited penn, chicago, Rutgers,
and a whole lot ofurban based colleges. He came back and wrote his classic paper linking liberal
arts objectives to community-based experiential learning, identifying what wi now embrace in
the Engaging J\rfinneapolis and Augsburg Experience elements of our curriculum. It wasn,t just a
paper;_it was literally read by the faculty and voted on. And a whole new curiculum emerged
from that paper, "The Liberal Arts college in the Modern Metropolis." He wrote it bas€d on his
research, experience, and his observations of campuses that were engaged in their community as
a leaming site. under Joel's leadership, the college grasped the validity of experiential,
community-based leaming and emerged as a pioneer in the field, establishing an intellectual and
operational base for all that we have accomplished since 1967.
It took the university of Minnesota another l5 years to even grant credit for intemships. The
Augsburg faculty, with Joel's leadership, the entire faculty, including chemistry, English,
religroa I mean everybody. I wasn't here to watch the vote, but it liGrafly was-voteJ on as a
principle and then operationalized in a curriculum that could include four intemships, that's four
ofyour 36 courses. It also included a required urban related course that demonstraied what that
discipline could contribute to the understanding of cities and the human habitat, as well as how
the resources of the Twin cities could contribute to the content of any particular course or
academic discipline. They called it the "Urban concerns" course. so when I arrived in 1977,
that decision had been made and the curriculum was in place. I inherited a campus wide
commitrnent to what Wooster and most of Higher Education still considered "marginal." I don't
lvant to overstate it, but Augsburg was truly a pioneer in community-based experiential
education. Yes, chemistry had a different view of it, Religion had a different view of it, but
every department was encouraged to offer courses that had an urban focus, thus embracing our
urban locafion as a valuable asset to student leaming. we, and higher education" were not-using
Page 5
of l5
the language of serviceJeaming at that point. But, it was experiential education, and it was based
on intemships, community-bases service and urban studies programs.
HH: Hmm, so what was going on when did arrive
Augsburg?
n
1977, what kind of things were going on at
GH: Well, HECUA was one, in addition to the campus
based intemship program. In the early
stages, Joel got a grant and Augsburg created an Intemship oflice called MUSIP - the
Metropolitan Urban Studies Intemship Program. It was similar to what we offer now in the
college-wide Stommen Center, the Career Planning center that supports intemships in all
academic majors. And it addressed what Mary Laurel True and others in the Sabo Center do in
temn of community service leaming. MUSIP had a staffto support lntemships and active
engagement in the community and HECUA programs. I write about MUSIP more in the chapter.
But another activity that was going on that was really, really important was what was called
CHR [Conserving Human Resources]. It had its own parallel story. I don't know its whole story,
but it orbited around vern Bloom, whom Joel had recruited to teach Social work. At trrat point
all the social work courses were still in sociology; then we split just as I anived, so they could
get accreditation. vem Bloom was a social worker recruited from the Model cities progam. ln
the early 70's Cal Appleby, an adjunct professor, began taking his students to Trevilla in
Robbinsdale to meet and study with the severely disabled adults who lived there. At the same
time the college began to provide co-leaming classes in prisons [stillwater and Shakopee] and
with the elderly. One outgrowth of that was students in wheel chairs coming to campus thanks to
the efforts of wayne ("Mo') Moldenhauer, an ex-con who had taken Augsburg courses at tre
stillwater prison. wayne had talked his way into a job at Augsburg after he completed his prison
term. Augsburg Work Study students drove the accessible vans purchased with money Mo
raised, and this became the forerunner of Metro Mobility region wide. In addition, this led to a
retired alum, Abner Batalden, raising money from Lutheran Churches to make the campus
accessible for people in wheel chairs, well before the legislation was passed requiring
accessibility. So cHR, which was called conserving Human Resources, added significantly to
both Augsburg's traditional students and expanded education for persons who often did noi have
access to college. All these efforts were very experiential and firther expanded our communitybased, experiential education and the diversity ofthe student body. It grew into the GLASS
office. We also established residential programs in Senior Housing in collaboration with the
Housing Authority on the North side. Joe Bash, who invited Joel to bring Augsburg students to
!!g North Side after Dr. King's assassination, resulting in the Crisis Colony, which grew into
HECUA, invited me to recruit students to live with senior citizens in public housing on Olson
Memorial Highway shortly after I succeeded Joel in 1978. All of thes€ efforts buili easily on the
foundation, "at the table," that Joel Torstenson and the Augsburg faculty established in the late
60s and early 70s. To recap, when cHR began it was a group ofcollege students from Augsburg
that got in a van and drove to the prison with the teacher. Half the class were Augsburg sudents;
half were Shakopee women students, Stillwater prisoners or Trevilla residents. I taughi at the
Stillwater prison shortly after I came in 1978. By that time students weren't always going to the
prison, but faculty were going there, so it didn't involve as many students as in iti origins. nut
cHR also reflected the powerful experiential commitment of the college and faculty, along with
the coJeaming model associated with community based service-Ieaming in which Augsburg
students leamed while serving and studying with others in the communiiy. that, to me, is almost
Page 6
of l5
always the best kind of service. It's where you are co-leaming, when you are also being served
by those you serve, [conects himself], the men and women in the prison were helping studenr
understand things that they were trying to leam. we were also serving them by hetping to
provide an education for them. So that was one of the most exciting things and daailed more in
in a file recently. I will give it to you to rake a look at. It islirerally a letter from
y_h1 Ut
Mo [wayne] Moldenhauer, who then wound up being that employee at Augsburg after he got out
ofprison, the one who wrote a letter to the student body thankingthem for ttre opporttrnitiei to
study with them. Then Mo, after he got out of prison tumed to vern Bloom and iaid ..I need a
job, because nobody will hire me." Vem says ..We don't have any money,' and Wayne replied
that "I was in prison because I was a con-artist and I took people;s money, so let me ty to raise
th9 money for my own job." And Mo did, and essentially when you drive around this city,
without going offtoo far on a tangent, you see Metro Mobility vans. well, that began at
Augsburg college. Mo raised money to buy vans and Augsburg students with work-study picked
up people at Trevilla in wheelchairs because they retrofitted the vans to haul people because
-lvlo
nothing like that was being offered. And so, Augsburg students, with the money
raised,
picked up people brought them to campus and we then had all these people coming to Augsburg
in wheelchairs. And, as I said earlier, another alum named ebner Bataldin, who hid created an
employment program during the Depression while a student himself, had retired from church
world service/Lutheran world Relief. As a volunteer, Abner raised money to make the campus
accessible, putting in the elevators and walk way. It's a complex causality world, but that was
going on when I arrived. So in addition to Joel Torstenson and the Urban Studies program, tlere
was a lot activity going on in a variety of different places that took Augsburg studentJ out into
the community to leam and grow. And, of great importance, this was considired central to the
Augsburg education and mission, unlike most other places in higher education up tmtil that point.
*9
HH: Hmm, I did not know any of this.
GH: And I found an old file Joel had given me that I had never looked at very closely, which
was this letter from Mo when he was still in prison and it has an article the students had written
in the school newspaper about the CHR program and taking courses at the prison with prisoners.
HH:
So the impact is long and deep here.
Yes; I have always said that Augsburg reflects the philosophy of ..let a thousand flower
blossom." You are pretty much free to do whatever you wantedtohere. There was not always
much monetary support, but ifyou had the your energy and enthusiasm, there was and is a lot
of
freedom to create programs and find support to makJthem work, just as we have done with
serviceJeaming and many ofthe experiential education endeavori over the years. In hindsight,
as I reflect back to 1977, it would appear that Augsburg was looking for someone
to replace Joel
Torstenson who also understood the centrality of experiential education to the teachinj
and
leaming enterprise. This was welltefore the rest ofhigher education did, as we curreritly see
in
AAC&U's LEAP Initiative and what ttrey call High Impact pe<ragogies, or see in campus
compact's. service-I,earning and civic Engagement. ai I have aieaay noted Joel tea ttre
zuutty
and administration of Augsburg to embrace experiential education thirty ye*s befo.e
ttrey have
become mainstream. It was also clear to me wfien I was being interviewei to succeed
Joj1 that
Augsburg was seeking someone who would affirm that pioneering spirit and build upon
the
9H:
Page 7
of l5
"shoulders of the giants" who early on established the college as a leader in bringing experiential
education into the center ofthe curriculum and effective teaching and leaming. Ironically, and
fortunately for me, the very qualities that Augsburg was seeking were the qualities that Wooster
had decided were not central to their own mission and future. Over the years, it has been clear to
me that the national awards and recognition that I have been honored to receive - the campus
Compact & AAIIE's Ehrlich Faculty Award for Service-Leaming (1996); Sociologists of
Minnesota's Distinguished Faculty Award (1998); MN professor of the year (2002); NSEE's
Lifaime Achievement Award in 2014 - were also a stong recognition of Augsburg's firm
foundation and enduring support for all that we were able to do together as my colliagues and I
have expanded upon what we were given and feasted upon at tlnt "table" all these years.
We got paid to teach at the prison and we had faculty release time in order to supervise the
intemships which supported the efforts. And there was great support from faculty and
administration for the program. Again to make the important and simple point, compared to any
other campus, and I have done faculty workshops by now at more than 60 different campuses
around the country--compared to any campus I have ever been to- there has always been wide
spread faculty and administration endorsement of experiential education at Augsburg, unlike
most places. This was not "top down", forced upon us by a president, as marked the beginning of
Campus Compact when college and university presidents initiated community service programs,
at Stanford, Notre Dame, Brown, or Michigan. It bubbled up from the facility and the students.
HH:
Has there ever been push back that you have experienced from the faculty?
GH: well, the push back would be mostly financial in light of other priorities and limited
resources.-The push back, if you would, came when we had to cut out funding faculty to
supervise intemships, especially when you would have a departrnent that didnt many students
doing intemships. And when finances got touglr, which they did in 1982, when we aimost
declared financial exigency, the support to supervise intemship was taken away. Faculty had to
teach more classes and we didn't receive additional credit for iupervising intemships and ttrat
kind ofa thing. But I don't think tlnt there was ever, by faculty, any serious push back or by the
President or leadership or that faculty ever said this was a mistake. It's been a pretty natural
evolution and, my role in this, I hope it's been to just keep greasing the sled and moving us
frrther and deeper.
In light ofthis, I suppose what made it possible to take it to the next level, and I reflected on that
in the chapter of the book on Successful service Leaming programs, "on the shoulder of
Giants", is something that happened in 1980, to put it in historical terms. I had been on the
search committee for a new Dean, Richard Green, an African American chemist from capital
University in columbus, ohio. when Richard had barely gotten on the scene, our Associate
Dean, Patricia Parker, had to have emergency surgery. Dick tumed to me and Earl Alton, from
the chemistry deparhnent, to be the acting Associate Deans while she was recuperatirg. b*irrg
the period of time that I was the Associate Dean in 1981, I was given responsibility foi
intemships, because that was part ofPat's load. I decided to taki advantage ofthai and do some
of the things she and I had talked about. ln the process, I discovered cooferative Education,
which was a federally funded program that Gustaws and concordia collige in Moorhead had
been taking advantage of. Federal funds were available to restore the origi-nal "MUsIp.
Page 8
of
15
Intemship support office that we had to discontinue because of funding in the 1970s. so I, along
with Bob clyde, kept rewriting the proposal. we were successfr.rl in gating the federal co-op Ed
Grant grant. when the 5 year grant was approved in 1983, the Dean iumed to me and said l'Ygulll do it won't you?" we had always put my name and resume on the application, but I
initially said'ho" to the Dean. I didn't think I wanted to spend the next stagi of my career
getting intemships mostly for business majors. And I had a sabbatical leave coming up
to write a
book with a former Wooster colleague based on our interviews of 500 Minneapolis-residents.
But I went home that weekend, and my wife said "who are kidding, Garry? Augsburg is never
going to lave money to do this sort of thing again. you're going to look over thi shoilder
of
somebody who takes thejob and moan and groan and whine beiause they're not doing it right.
why are you tuming this down?" So I called the Dean on Monday moming and saia *ls it stitt
open, I want to do it." so, that gave me not only money to hire and superviie the staff overseeing
and promoting intemships, but also time to secure additional funding io hire Mary Laurel
[Truef
and really expand and deepen the service-learning aspect of experiential education. lronicaty,
at
a time of very limited financial resources, after almoit declaring financial exigency,
I had money
t9 havel and attend Cooperative Education and NSIEE meetings. There was rio travel money at
the college, but there was federal money in the coop grant so icould havel to support the
program. As a result, I became involved in the National Society for Intemships and
Experiential
Education INSIEE] in Pittsburgh in the fall of 1984. As a tenured faculty member, I walked into
a national organization that had been instrumental in promoting experiential education
and
intemships in higher education and was a leader in the emergirig service-learning movement.
And, to give you an idea about faculty involvement at that time in experiential ef,ucation, I went
to NSIEE's faculty interest group. There were seven people who showed up, four of them
weren't faculty members; they had come to talk to faculty members because-no faculty members
back on their campuses wouldtalk with them. The point is, I was one of the few faculiy members
and virtually the only tenured faculty member from an institution that actively supported
experiential education. And within two years, I became not only its vice-presideni but
its
President. This was not because I had a whole lot ofskills or knowledge at that point,
but
because they knew that NSIEE needed someone with faculty status from an institution
that
supported experiential education in leadership in their organization ifthey were going
to be taken
s19y9[11the rest of higher education. So the funding let me travel anddeeperimy-affiliation
3+_IIIE_E-_14 the cooperative Education network. In addition, I got tained as part of
NSIEE's FIPSE Grant [Fund for the Improvement of postsecondary Education] *d b""u." u
*q"t"l consultant in experiential education. So there is a lot accident and the intentionality tied
up in what happened, but I always come back to say "IfI hadn't been from Augsburg,
an
institution that_s_upp9fieq experiential education deiply, going way back to my-predJessor
and
before, probably little of this would have happened.;, Dois that make sense?
i
HH: It does make
sense. So where do you think Augsburg foundation in that came from?
GH: Well, I think I tried to explain-that in the chapter in the book on successfirl service-leaming
programs.Augsburg began as an educational institution to train preachers and
teachers. So in its
DNA and bones [emphasizes this word], Augsburg understood Iiewey ana practiJ
exfirience
well before it evolved into a liberal arts college and a co-education one and-became finally
accredited in the 50s. And I think you could say that this distinguished us from
Gustavtrs or St.
olaf, which began as fledging liberal arts colleges, even ifwe didn't call them that then. This
Page 9
of l5
was a "prcacher school" and seminary until the 50s, and that would be one
explanation. The
other-is that, by accident, Augsburg relocated from a small town in wisconsin
to a rapidly
The founders got kicked out of their building in Marshall, and you t noi, tt ut purt
ryyrng.citr.
of that history. ole Paulson, an urban pastor, up here, responded to so*"
f"tho, ioea trrat
*we need a
college over here in Minneapolis besides the university; they"ity
looked over in st.
Paul, where they had four, Hamline, Mac, st. Thomas and St. catherine,s.
what are we going to
do?" My point is that our urban location was also an accident and quite foreign to
this bunch of
Norwegian farmers who supported tlis new school. virtually none orth"- rivea a ttracity,
tut
there_was this Norwegian church in Minneapolis that got them to come here.
So I think it's, as
Joel rorstenson would say "It's our location, location, location.', If you're in
Northfield or St.
Peter or Moorhead, it's not that you are disengaged with your community,
but the community is
just not really in your face all the time. And the reaity of ttrat
city location in the midst of CedarRiverside's immigrant realties has made a huge diffeience as the'new initiatire ty
rirsten
[Delegard], is documenting.
HH: Historyapolis
GH: Yes, and this college arose in the middle of snooze Boulevard and the west Bank, which
wls home to immigrants and we were an immigrant college itself. And that is different'tlr*
-o.t
all the other Protestant liberal arts
that were mostly established in small tor-r, pu.tiafy
^colleges
because Protestants were scared ofcities.
Catholics tended to live in cities and established their
colleges there to oversimpli$r a bit. Two faculty members had the mort
to Ao JU, e"gJ*g
claiming its urban location, Joel rorstenson aod c*l chrislock, who was a histo.y p-ioror.
Both carl and Joel went here as students, I think. I know Joel did. But they,
rrayr.,
stenshoel in Political Science, a1d n9b clyde, inspired generations of student
"rorjriitr,
to-affrm the crty,
is political in$sges, history and reality. But again, theri ul*uys seemed to be a comfort with
application and relevance to the dynamic and challenging world tlat sunounded
us so that the
applied experiential education emphasis wasn't foreiga wasn,t a uaa thing.
Hence, the link
between the liberal arts and professional studies has irarked our history
6r" til*g;;;g.
lrH: o. k, backing
up to your time when you were serving on the Nationar Society for
Experiential Education President. what do you think yoir experience on that? ylu
talk about
what you were able to give to them. what do you think bang on that
brought back for
Augsburg?
GH: well, the conference I went to in pittsburgh featured the FIpsE Grant from the
Fund for
Improvement of Post-secondary Education, which NSIEE received to promot.
*a
r*"rty
and.staff in the development of experiential education. ril/ith the .".o*"".
"qG
of tt C"-lp-'g*,
I
could cover my expenses related to my training as a consurtant. I was
" back-to
able to bring
j{ugsb_ure, two things, I think. one was an ability to say were on the right toack, tfrat what we had
been doing for decades, higher education is nowaff*ming. And the
selona trring *as aat r
learned how the emerging community_serviceJeaming fiid was
unfokring ana ;kin! shape. es
a rgylt we w9r9 a!19 to vev
qrlckly frnd and get funding from a Mi*"r&. bgi.lrtii" grant that
to nire Mary Laurel rrue. That put us in touci- with eveo rnor" r.roil"",
ys
9na!t9{
*a?-aiog.
And I think the reason I was asked to. write that chapcr in the book was that
our service-Laming
program was grounded in what Augsburg had been doing for
decades. It also gave us a chance
Page
l0 of
15
to tell Augsburg's story on a national level, which I also have been
able to do in the sixty prus
g1:Effdevelopment workshops I have done across the
u;ini"I).
on or
the few FIPSE consultants who had faculty stat s. But I was
aso exposea to frressiona
colleagues.who had pioneered in,the deveiopment of serviceJeamiri
*a
education
overall and add their wisdom and experience to Augsburg and rrectla;s "*frri."tia
p.*ti."
*J
experiential educatioq further enriching and expanding
efforts here.
My other colleagues, Lois olson, Mary Laurel irue, ira Ira.oi" Benasutti,
added further
p.resence at NSEE and Campus Compact,_while
expanding student invok;"rt
development. And I think it's fair.to
thTe a{e ro,n" kiy
we keep receiving nationar
:ay
recognition from the President and others.
Certainly it is because ofnumbei of studenft we have
involved, the_Bonner program and a wide embrace by faculty. But,
modesty *i0",
it i.
also, in part because I have had the opportunity to bi involved
nati"rarv.
trr"
campus compact Erlich Award ror rliaerstrip in Service Leaming
recognized me, but also my
colleagues_and the college that had supported us in creating
high q;lfty I*p"ri"rtia-"Ju""tion
programs. Indeed, Augsburg almost stood alone in those early-auy,
ufor" oa.. i*"rty ro*a
support from their institutions to engage in serviceJeaming. i t"n"rrtt"a
i**"nr"iv
trr"t
support and unique history.
c;hy.
l*W
iil.
,iri*
ir
"r
;Jil;;rr_
.*o*
i*."-"
i.i.Ji*ri.r,
til-
As regards my career, {rs I indicated previously, I had to make
a decision. I,m going in two days
to Detroit to visit my friend that I was doing research with beginningi,
wr"r[, Jtf,aG
neightorhoods and housing. During the swnmer of 19g0, we got several grants
and we hired four
Augsburg students to do summer rese-arch on housing ani neilhborhooar]
random sample of 400 households in Minneapolis. We hua g;h"."d
"
neighborhood dynamics and housing maintenance. Then Aulsburg "ll
re."i*a trr. c".p
funding in 1983 when I was schedulid for a sabbatical to wriL oui
book. rrre aeclsioi to tat<e
the co-op job meant I had to tum to George Galster and say..the
boot i, yo*r.
iJgoing to
have the time or be able to take the sabbaticar that r was
eligible f"r.,'
trr"t
research career to do what I have done at Augsburg. But
I can say in ..t o.p".t, it i. "p *or"
consistent with who I am and my sense of vocation', to use
the Augsburg.'-t l. i"r:"v"a trr"
research and the topic of housing and neighborhood dynamics
whi-cr,
ut tlr"
Ji,,,v
teaching and the Metro urban studies pro-gram. And f bved
".nti', lrgsb*g
the
students out in the community interviewing and doing research. "pp"rt""ity "irr"rtig
i"rp"?*. e"a
it was a bit painfril to let go oiit, ro. *y
no-d;gltl". nut trr" opportunity took me and
"e-o,if directiJns.
Augsburg in some very exciting and rewarding
and *causi'aaiis #tui eug.u*g
needed and wanted me to undertake, the synergy has been,
I think, mutuaty teneiJJ.T
certainly have benefited immensely and hive no regrets foi pursuing
tt
*J putr, trri.
opened for me. I think that both the college and I ha-ve enhanced
" becaus" oitt *uy
eacJr other
things developed.
"
rrr"virl*i.*.a
tlri"a;;;;*r.
ia
ir*
s;,idi;*"
*L
ririt**,lJry
"o**
HH: And have an impact.
GH: Yes and a reputation.
HH:
Yes, yes
Page
ll
of
15
d,
GH: Yes, my experiential education workshops have been well received and beneficial because
they are grounded and significantly augmented by the overall Augsburg successes and practices
of my colleagues, as well as my own community-based teaching and supervision of internships.
IIH:
So during the 80s, you
talk about "On the Shoulders of Giants" from 1984-1989, you were
you
talking about
spent most of your time on experiential leaming that was when you were
working as the President and Vice-President, ah, on the board ofNISEE. What kind of changes
happened here on campus?
GH: During that time period when we had the co-operative education gant, I continued to work
fr.rll time as Director of Co-operative Education and wasn't teaching much Sociology or Urban
Studies. Then as the funding for the federal grant wound down and we found funding for Mary
[,aurel True to expand the service learning, we created.t]e Center for Service, Work and
Leaming. We brought the oversight of intemships into this Center. Lois Olson became its
Director, and Mary Laurel worked with her, along with Susan Giguire, Sandy Tilton and Menie
Benasutti. All that has now expanded to form the Strommen and Sabo Centers as the TorsGnson
vision and legacy continues to grow. But during the period you're asking about, I think that one
ofthe biggest things that happen was that we evolved as current curriculum was designed. It had
two important "book ends." Every first year student is required to take a course called Engagrng
Minneapolis that is embedded in one of their liberal arts courses. This is supposed to introduce
them to what the urban location would means for their education and introduces them to the
leaming opportunities available in the city. The other "bookend" is basically an experiential
education graduation requirement called the Augsburg Experience. We more broadly defined
what the Augsburg Experience would be, but there were only about 2 or 3 colleges in the country
that had an experiential education requirement for graduation, Monmouth and DePaul. An
internship is one option, as are study abroad, student-faculty research, an upper level serviceleaming course, and a student can design his or her own experiential project. ln that new
curricular context, I retumed to the Sociology department full-time and Urban Studies. And this,
I think, is very important to stress. Many of the colleges, like Gustaws and Concordi4 that got
the Co-operative education grants, when the money ran out, the programs dried up. Augsburg,
and I really credit the faculty and administration, found the resources and have continued to
support these endeavors that significantly enhance the quality and reputation ofthe college. As I
said, I retumed to teaching full time, and we institutionaliz€d that with the Center for Service,
Work and Leaming. And the college continued to support the staffthat had been hired using
federal money to start with, affrrming that "Yes, this truly is who we are and we can't let this go
when the federal grant ends." The Sabo and Strommen Centers, along with the Center for Global
Educatiorl are Augsburg centerpieces because the college faculty and administration have said
"we can't be Augsburg College without providing the support systems for students and the
faculty related to experiential education." Have we arrived or gone as far as we should and could
have? Probably not, but the commitnent is shong, and it has always been a work in progress.
HH: You would
have liked to have seen more pushed?
GII: Well,
yes, I think the lack of funding is just pure and simple, but given that, the fact that
is institutionalized and the support is there is a testament to the college and its leadership.
Page 12 of 15
it
HH: And it still remains today,
so.
GH: Yes, and maybe it is even stronger. When we split the Center for Service, Work and
Leaming to forrn the Strommen Center to oversee the internships and career service and the Sabo
Center to intensiff our work in public service and public involvement, it reflected President
Pribbeno's vision and call when he came here as President. Paul says that he was athacted to
Augsburg College, as were the other candidates, when I recall their speeches, because of its
embracing of its urban location. His competitor was a person who was Provost at the University
of Colorado in Denver. Paul wanted very much to be at a school that was committed to
community service and its surrounding community. And he was attracted to Augsburg because,
of all the Lutheran colleges, we were the one most engaged. So you could say, and he does say,
that he came here because he knew the college was already committed to
leaming.
HH: And that is current President Paul Pribbeno?
GH: Yes
HH: Ok. Alright
so what do you believe your greatest challenge in work here at Augsburg has
been?
GH: On a personal level, the greatest challenge is to stay focused. There are so many
opportunities. And my own personal inclination is to tackle too much. I would sometimes
describe myself as an intentional dilettante. I get excited about new ideas and my wife says I
have trouble walking in a straight line fiaughter]. so, on a personel level the greatest chalienge
was to stay focused and see things through before I launch into another idea and take on
something else. And that, I think, is the institutional challenge for Augsburg as well. We
probably should have been more disciplined and strategic, but who knows?
HH: What do you believe
has been your greatest challenges in your work at Augsburg?
GH: I think that when we embraced the new curriculum, we had to give up original Urban
Sfudies required course. There used to be a required course in urban studies that went clear back
to that curriculum in the 60s and 70s. But when we identified the Engaging Minneapolis and the
Augsburq Experience as requirements, I chose to go with that decision. But I think my biggest
sense of failure or biggest challenge tlnt we've faced was that the Engaging Minneapolis course
very quickly, for practical reasons, became first just a serviceJeaming course that often didn't
really accomplish the larger objectives. It specified very clearly that the inhoductory courses
would introduce students to leaming opportunities in the city, notjust service, as valuable as that
is. so if you were a history major, the intro course would intoduce you to the resources and
accessibility to the Minnesota History center, the Hennepin county Historical. If you were
chemistry or business major it would introduce you to research and work going at 3M, Ecolab,
Target or Medhonic. It wasn't that you would always be doing service. So, first Engaging
Minneapolis tended to become identified with just service, which was not the primary inG"t.
That tended to introduce students primarily to the problems of the city even more than seeing the
city and region as a resourc€. It did not meet the goal that Joel rorstenson and I believed in,
Page 13
of
15
namely equipping students to understand cities, how they work and how people, as citizens, need
to be actively engaged, not just servicing people, but politically and socially making the
community a better place by working together with the people who live in it. And so even to this
day, the Engaging Minneapolis course doesn't usually meet lyhat the criteria are, which was to
introduce new students to the leaming opportunities of the city and how the discipline of the
course being taken contributes to an understanding of the city-whether English, Literature,
History, Chemistry, etc. That is a weakness, I think. When I became the Sabo professor of
Citizenship, and when I retired last year, I became less and less engaged with the actual
gurriculum. My own personal sense of failure and the institutional challenge is what do we really
do with the Engaging Minneapolis requirement related to what it was designed to do. The
graduation requirement ofthe Augsburg Experience is, I think, still pretty solid, but, like
everything, can always use more attention and support. And we are starting to do more support
for intemships. we now have a major frrnd and grant to give support to students doing unpaid
intemships, so more people will do intemships. So, for me, the biggest challenge is to simply
make the curriculum "book ends," the Engaging Minneapolis and Augsburg Experience, be what
they were designed to be and intended to be. But no one thought that would be easy anyway.
HH: Ok,
on the flip side, what do you hope to be remembered for? What do you hope your
legacy is here at Augsburg?
GH: well, I say it
a lot, and
I know I really mean it. I hope my legacy is that I contributed to and
helped the Torstenson platform and legacy continue. I hope I have deepened that in some
important ways. And, in a broader sense, hopefully my legacy is that i played a role in
increasing the quality and quantity of what is "on the table,', using the metaphor ofJoel
Torstenson, carl chrislock, Bob clyde and Myles Stenshoel setting the table for us. I deeply
believe they did, because the curricular pieces were mostly in place when they retired, too.
Hopefirlly, my legacy is that I put more on the table, that I helped put a lot ofvariety, good
"food" on that table to help Augsburg students, faculty, and staff to feast at and to takJ advantage
of as they d,ine at Augsburg [aughter]. Sorry, I may milk that metaphor too much. And I hope
that in my final role as the sabo Professor of citizenship and Leaming, we have been able to
transfer and continue to translate community engagement in some new ways. community
engagement should mean, I think, looking at the city as a place to leam along with otlers, but
also as a place to co-create as we listen to the voices of community members and co-leam
together as a leaming community. That also should help us understand what citizenship is about,
namely, citizens engaging each other in problem-solving. citizenship is not about me fixing you.
It requires working together to make our communities healthy, generative, and humane for all.
And so hopefully that is an emerging role for the college that I have contributed to. Having Harry
Boyte, Dennis Donovan, and Elaine Eschenbacher and the Center for Democracy and
citizenship move here from the University of Minnesota is giving us a way to keep expanding
the Torstenson vision. And that is very consistent with that vision, namely'equipping every
Augsburg student to be an active citizen and community builder, exercising their civic agency, as
Harry would stress, and work with others to address the issues and challenges facing theiity or
community where they live. Joel rorstenson's basic theme was that we need to eqoip every
Augsburg student to be a community builder. we don't know where people are going to live, but
we know trrat communities are dynamic, organic, and evolving, so through engagemEnt in the
city, through service and whatever modes we would call experiential education, itudents from
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Augsburg are, we hope, better equipped to be community builders. I hope that my legacy is to
have conhibuted to that vision and the educational preparation that enables all who leam and
work here to be active community builders the rest of their lives. So, hopefrrlly, I have
contributed to that vision and that I have helped my colleagues at Augsburg embrace it as well.
It certainly has become central to Augsburg's reputation, and I know many ofus have helped
that happen. The other legacy of Joel Torstenson that is consistent with my own values isi deep
belief in a multi-cultural community that values and honors people of all beliefs, reputations,
ethnicities, skin colors and orientations. That is also the college's new demographic profile,
which is quite unlike any other Lutheran or most other Protestant related liberalarts colleges.
And it represents a foundation that our urban location makes possible, where that diversity has
happened and is happening. That is a legacy that I hope I contributed to by what I have done over
the years, but it is the result of many, many hands and efforts that I have been privileged to
share-u,hat a gift and good fortune. This should equip us to be even better community builders
and civic agents.
HH: Ok. Well, I want to thank you Garry for your time.
GH: You're welcome and thank you.
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