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Interview with Douglas Green
Interviewed at Memorial Hall at Augsburg College
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Interviewed on March 1st, 2017 at 11:06 AM
Augsburg College Oral History Project
Interviewed by Clara Higgins.
0.00 Clara Higgins: Alright this is Clara Higgins, uh, interviewing Douglas G... Show more
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Interview with Douglas Green
Interviewed at Memorial Hall at Augsburg College
Minneapolis, Minnesota
Interviewed on March 1st, 2017 at 11:06 AM
Augsburg College Oral History Project
Interviewed by Clara Higgins.
0.00 Clara Higgins: Alright this is Clara Higgins, uh, interviewing Douglas Green for the
Augsburg College Oral History Project and it is, um, March 1st at 11:06AM. Alright, so um, I’m
just going to ask a little about your time before, um, teaching at Augsburg.
0.20 Douglas Green: Sure.
0.22 Clara Higgins: So can you just describe a little um where you are from and your education
before teaching about Augsburg?
0.28 Douglas Green: Sure, that’s an easy question, okay. So I, um, I’m from, uh, New York,
New York State originally from, um, Riverdale which is a section from the Bronx, a fairly well
to do section of the Bronx. So some people get the idea that I, I grew up in poverty, that’s not
true. Um, and then we, so I spent half my childhood there and then half my childhood on Long
Island around the Huntington area. I went to school at Amherst College in central Massachusetts.
And then to Brown University for my M.A. and PhD. Um, so that was Providence. And then I
traveled around as academics, especially English, uh, those in English, uh, tend to do for about
five years. The first two on a leave replacement at Carleton College, uh, the third year, uh, as a
leave replacement at Colby College in Maine. And then, um, two years and my first tenure track
position at Dayton, uh, University in Ohio. And, at that point I had married, uh, Becky Boling,
uh, who teaches as Carleton College. We had met, uh, the second year of my leave replacement
and, uh, got married in, uh, when I, uh, took the job at Dayton and kind of commuted back and
forth. And, uh, luckily I started looking for work up here. Uh, we liked this area, Becky had a
good job, and, um, I was very fortunate to find a job at Augsburg. And I’m very, very happy I
did. It’s been a great, um, almost 30 years, almost 30 years.
2:22 Clara Higgins: Um, I guess, that, yeah, that answers my first question, you’ve taught at
Augsburg for 30 years. Um, can you talk a little bit about what you teach at Augsburg?
2:30 Douglas Green: Sure, sure. So, I do, um, I do a little bit of everything for the department
and also some things outside the department. So, um, I, my, the main areas I teach in of course
are composition. I teach, um, my specialty is, um, English Renaissance literature particularly the
drama, so every year I teach a Shakespeare course, uh, which draws both English majors, theater
majors, and folks from outside of even those areas who just want to do some Shakespeare. Uh,
that’s an upper level class. Um, and then I do a variety of different things. I’ve done, I’ve taught
the English Renaissance material, uh, for many years until we set up a drama sequence, and now
I teach that sequence and American drama, British drama, British and Commonwealth drama,
and world drama. Uh, so that’s what I’ve been doing lately. In 2000, because I was writing as a
poet, uh, one of my colleagues needed someone to teach the introduction to creative writing. I’ve
been doing enough work in creative writing myself that it seemed like the right time. And so now
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almost a third to a half of my time is in creative writing. I’m teaching mostly the intro, uh, but
also the creative nonfiction class and lately the keystone, um, course every year.
4:12 Clara Higgins: Great, um, so, um, what are some of your interests, uh, research interests as
an English scholar?
4:19 Douglas Green: Okay, so, those are also split now into, um, oh, can I go back for one
second?
4:24 Clara Higgins: Yeah, yeah.
4:26 Douglas Green: Um, so the other thing is I teach right now is I’m teaching the, um,
introduction to queer theory, which is actually an upper level class for gender, sexuality, and
women’s studies. I’ve been doing that since, on and off, since 1997, um, usually team taught
with another faculty member. Um, in addition, I’ve taught with Diane Pike in the sociology
department, a pair course, for about 12 years, um, an Augsburg seminar associated with our two
courses. So, I would teach effective writing, Diane would teach sociology. And, finally, I was in
at the ground level working on the film major when it first started. And, I have taught the
introduction to film, so that’s what I meant when I said I do a few things outside the department,
uh, as well. Um, so you had asked me another question.
5:19 Clara Higgins: Yeah, yeah I can restate it.
5:22 Douglas Green: Yeah, would you restate it?
5:23 Clara Higgins: What are some of your research interests as an English scholar?
5:25 Douglas Green: Right, so every year, I’ve been going since 19, I want to say, 1986. I go to
Shakespeare Association, I’ll be going this April. And, I either participate in a workshop for
which there’s an informal paper usually or assignment or I write a seminar paper. It’s a little bit
different than most, uh, conferences. Uh, if you’re in a seminar, you actually exchange papers
with everyone else. That’s how my articles develop, so, over probably the half, so I’ve taught for
30 years, I probably have 15 articles. So, every two years, that kind of thing. And I, I workshop
them at the conference. That’s basically what’s happening. So that’s my Shakespeare interest.
Um, I’ve done a, in Shakespeare, I’ve done a little bit on film, a little bit on gender and sexuality,
um, a little bit on performance, so, that’s sort of the range of things. I’m coming up on 62 now,
so, I’ve been thinking a little bit about how do I keep doing the things, what are the things I want
to keep doing after I retire? And I probably will do fewer formal scholarly articles, um, though
I’ve been doing them, I mean again I’ve, almost every other year, um, even though I, I gave
myself a break at 55 and said if you don’t want to do those anymore you don’t have to, but it just
turns out I keep doing them, so um, but I think I probably will slow down on those, but keep
doing, I do reviews, what are called reviews of record for Shakespeare Bulletin and they’re
performance reviews, so I’ve done reviews of Guthrie shows Ten Thousand Things. Um, I did a
big article on, um, sort of the house styles of several, um, areas and, uh, several theaters in town.
And then try to think about, is there a kind of special sort of Shakespeare production or scene in
Minneapolis, um, as well for them. And that was fun, uh, it’s a different take. I use my expertise,
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but it’s a little bit more journalistic type of writing even though it’s for a scholarly journal. It’s
edited, but it’s not peer reviewed, in that particular case. Um, the other half of what I do now is
poetry primarily and also a little bit of creative nonfiction or journalistic prose. Um, so you can
see, both of those areas are going to converge just a little bit after retirement, that I’ll continue
with the performance reviews, I hope. And, um, and then write, um, um, really, I hope to write
much more poetry than I’m writing now. Um, I write a bit every year, you know probably 20 or
30 poems, but, um, I’d love to be able to do more than the 20 or 30 that are, are worth looking
back at again. Not necessarily ready for other eyes, but, um, the things that I would keep working
on.
8:57 Clara Higgins: Um, so I guess we can move into talking about Augsburg.
9:03 Douglas Green: Sure, sure.
9:05 Clara Higgins: Um, so you’re president of the faculty senate, um, what are your
responsibilities, um, in that position, and what types of decisions are made on the faculty senate
regarding Augsburg College as a whole?
9:18 Douglas Green: Yeah, so, well the biggest area of concern for the senate is, relates to the
main, um, responsibility of the faculty which is for the academic programs, uh, the curriculum is
basically our responsibility, our primary one. And though we look at a lot of other things; work
conditions, um, other college policies, et cetera, we’re mostly looking at them in relation to their
impact on the academic programs. So that’s our primary, um, concern. So new programs that
develop, um, go through several committees, they come back to us for recommendation, that
would be a primary area that we’re concerned with. On the other hand, there are things that we
don’t oversee, but take a deep interest in because the affect students like you, and so because of
the election and certain uncertainties around that, we’ve been following very closely, and in fact
met with, um, the faculty members on the Campus Climate Advisory Team, um, as well as the
director, Joanne Reeck, was really, um, made time on her schedule to come visit us, and had, I
think some instructive discussions, um. You know, I never thought I’d be dealing with this, but
you know some questions have come up about what if an ICE official, you know, someone from
immigration and customs, uh, comes to, um, a classroom, um, how do we deal with that? And
we’ve got faculty members, who are, I mean there are some faculty members who might want to
do something resistant and there are some faculty members who feel you can’t ask me to do
something that’s against the law. So we have to respect both of those positions, but the main
thing we’re concerned about is, everyone is concerned about, is keeping our students, um, as safe
as we can, which is of course limited even on the part of the college, um, so we had a very
instructive discussion about that and I know that that team is working on protocols for a simple
directives that we can use if somebody comes. So, there’s something you know you don’t think
of that as a responsibility of the faculty senate, but it’s certainly, we were able to give good
advice, so we do a lot of advising of administration, um, in that regard, and participate in that.
We set up the committee structure, um, in fact I have to send out an email to the faculty today
about that. Um, which deals more closely with the nitty gritty; approving courses, those kinds of
things, working on the handbook, the faculty handbook which is connected, really connected to
the founding documents of the college. The constitution of the college, um, is and the articles
that govern us are part of the handbook. Augsburg was small enough when it started that in some
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ways it was governed by the faculty. Um, much more directly, the presidents and deans came out
of the faculty. That of course has changed as we’ve become closer to what a modern university
looks like. Does that help?
12:57 Clara Higgins: Yeah, yes, definitely. Um, so, um, what brought you to teach at Augsburg
College?
13:05 Douglas Green: Well, I mean as I mentioned, I met my spouse at Carleton, and, um, so I
was looking to move back in the area, so that was the primary reason for moving back to this
area and Augsburg gave me the opportunity to do it. What was a wonderful surprise, and what I
would say has kept me here and got me as involved as I’ve been at the college is that I just think
its mission and people that it serves are, um, are great, I mean, that’s the best way to put it. I
believe fully in it, I would say that in the last five to seven years our student body is reflecting
more the, I think our aspirations, and that’s very exciting so it’s even, it’s made the work even
more meaningful than it was before. So, a big part of it is I feel I’m doing meaningful work here,
um, with students who I think care deeply about what they’re doing and with great colleagues.
Um, I, I, what I like to say is that I’m so lucky to teach here because I get to live off the
reflective glory of everybody, um, because, you just have, I mean I think of Michael Lansing in
your department and the work that he’s done. Um, we’ve got Stephan Clark in our own
department, who’s a wonderful writer, and Cass Dalglish, I mean just fantastic, um, artists. I
work with, um, Julie Bolton, originally in theater, um, Martha Johnson, both of them are retired
now. Uh, but also I’ve worked with both Sarah Myers and very closely with Darcey Engen, um,
over the years. And, so those have been great collaborations for just letting me sit on stuff. I
really appreciate that. And, um, and one of the highlights actually was that I’ve been torturing
Darcey for years to do Cymbeline and she, she took up that challenge and I’m so grateful
because it was a wonderful production.
15:37 Clara Higgins: Um, so, since you have been here for a while at Augsburg, um, what have
you learned through your time here?
15:46 Douglas Green: Oh, that’s a good question, and I, I need. I should’ve asked you for the
questions in advance. I could’ve really prepped it. What, so say the question again to me because
I want to think about it.
16:00 Clara Higgins: Yeah, um, what have you learned through your time here teaching at
Augsburg?
16:16 Douglas Green: So, I’m going to twist the question just a little bit.
16:20 Clara Higgins: That’s fine.
16:22 Douglas Green: I think it’s, um, I think Augsburg has allowed me in some ways to teach
literature not just as a discipline, and I would say the same is true of writing. To teach them not
just from a sort of disciplinary perspective, um, but also for the reasons that I love them and in
relation to the concerns, in some ways of the whole person. So let me give you an example. If I
were teaching, so I taught Milton for many years. Milton is an author who is difficult to love.
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And so I don’t know if you’ve read Paradise Lost or any of his, but I, I had the students read all
of Paradise Lost. Um, and I had a lot of reasons for doing it. Um, it’s a difficult text. But, if I
were teaching that over at, say, the university or maybe at Macalaster, um, or Hamline I would
probably talk about religion, and the religion in that poem is in many ways inspired, I mean,
Milton thought of himself as inspired, um, in a very literal way, to write that, um, and in the
writing of it. I would probably talk about those things mostly from a very historical and, um,
professional, um, objectivist, sort of, um, view point. And I do some of that, I did some of that
when I teaching Milton, um, because it’s important to know. You have to know what was the
religion of his period. What were his affiliations? It was a very contested area. He was a Puritan.
You need to know some of those things to understand him. At the same time, I think, for our
students, um, the sort of moral and religious questions that the text itself raises, are, I don’t want
to treat them just clinically in some sense. I don’t think they should be, I think we have the
opportunity here to say so, how does this relate to your religious outlook? I mean, do you, uh, so
whether you were an atheist reading it, or whether you were a Lutheran reading it, um, or a
Catholic reading it, how did that, um, text affect you? How does this presentation of Adam and
Eve or Satan relate to your notions of human being, and um, evil in the world? Um, um, how do
his very troubling views of God relate to your conception of God? So, I think there’s a personal
element in reading Milton, which is the way that text was meant to be read. It wasn’t meant to be
simply studied. Um, so we have that opportunity here, and so that’s been one big thing that I
think matters. The other would be a kind of socially conscious dimension to the work that, that
we do. Um, so just as another example I’ve taught Lear in, come in and lectured on Lear, uh, for
the Honors 490, um, that Paul Pribbenow, and that year I think it was Tim Pippert were doing on
homelessness. Or, I’ve taught Chicago literature this year for the city, um, seminar that they were
doing, um, that Paul was doing with Jay, uh, Walljasper. Um, so just kind of bringing in a
literary perspective on a particular topic, um, that’s been exciting, um, as well, and thinking
about society in relation to literature.
20:43 Clara Higgins: Great, um, so I guess, kind of, um, again kind of talking about, um, your
experience at Augsburg, um after being here for a while, um, what changes, if any, have you
experienced or seen at Augsburg through your time here?
21:01 Douglas Green: Well the biggest one is one that I touched on earlier that, um, it’s
happening a little bit more slowly with the faculty because you know we get hired, and you’re,
one thing about academia at least the tenure professoriate tends to stay for a long time. I’m an
example of that. But, um, it’s certainly more diverse than it was when I came. And the student
body is infinitely more diverse, um, some of that’s a function of a change in the state itself, um,
and the, or certainly this area, this part of the state. But even I live down in Northfield and
commute up here and even Northfield’s different, um, from what it was when I first came, um, as
many rural towns are now. Larger Latino populations for instance, and other immigrant
populations as well. So those things are different. Um, it’s racially more complex. Not as diverse
as some other states, but certainly much more diverse than it was. Um, and that’s reflected in the
college. Um, the college is actually more diverse than the state, um, which is fantastic. I mean at
some sense we’re at the leading edge of who’s going to be here doing the work of the state. Um,
and I kind of feel like, you know we talk about, you know we have sort of the mission statement
that sounds like a slogan and I can never remember all the adjectives that go with all the parts,
but the idea that, so if you take for instance responsible leaders, um, I think I’ve got that right,
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um, we really are educating that class of people. Will all of them live in the state? Probably not.
But will a good portion of them? Yes, and that’s really vital. So, that’s what I mean about
meaningful work, it’s not just what we teach, but who we’re teaching, and the way in what we
teach will matter to them, sometimes in ways that students aren’t aware of when they’re going
through the classes, but that’s another story. So, I really feel there’s a value, I feel like the
teaching here matters, um, in a way that, you know I mentioned I taught at several other places,.
they were all lovely, the students were great, um, but, I’m not sure that my teaching there matters
as much as my teaching here. Um, and you know our students come from very different
backgrounds from the places that I taught before. Exception maybe of Dayton, um, but Dayton
was not nearly as diverse as Augsburg, not back in the mid 80s anyway.
23:57 Clara Higgins: Um, are there ways in which the, um, diversity of the college affects your
teaching?
24:05 Douglas Green: Oh yeah, well it affects, and this is a function both of the profession has
changed also. Um, but, um, there, so just when I developed the drama sequence. Obviously the
American drama class is going to reflect the diversity of America. Um, but, I also constructed the
British course as British and Commonwealth so that we’re looking at Anglophone drama around
the world, and I wouldn’t necessarily have done that when I started out. I would say, oh, that’s
British and someone else will do the rest of the world. Um, and that’s been great for me. I mean,
I discovered playwrights I didn’t know about, and um, it’s changed the way I look at British
drama and its politics, um, and the same thing with world drama, that these things then kind of
become, um, connected to our larger interesting global matters. So that’s just an example of it.
Um, when I’m teaching Shakespeare, when we do Othello, we look back at Ira Aldridge, who
was a 19th century African American actor, became really, really important in Europe, and had a
big influence, very likely a big influence on even the development of Stanislavski’s method,
that’s where he played, in Russia among other places, could not have played in the U.S. at the
time that he was. So we read about him and his interpretations of Othello and some other plays
as well.
25:47 Clara Higgins: Yeah, um, so, regarding, um, you being an, um, English professor here,
there is a lot of literary history, um, so how can literary history, such as the Murphy Square
Literary Journal, um, be used to understand the history of Augsburg as an educational institution
since the, uh, sesquicentennial is coming up?
26:15 Douglas Green: Yeah, so I can’t answer that question yet. I can tell you how I’m going to
find out the answer to that question. Um, so I’ve proposed, and I’ve got students working with
me on, um, an anthology of over 40 years of Murphy Square. We’re not sure exactly the dates
will be, it depends a little on when the book is finished. Um, but it’s planned for the
sesquicentennial, so sometime in 2019 or 2020 the book will come out. That’s the plan. Um, I’m
working with actually the keystone, the first keystone worked this fall on, um, issues of the, uh,
the magazine. And, um, I think we’ll learn something about the student body over time, um, the
relative interest in writing and the arts. The journal’s much more polished and bigger than it was
in the early days, but that doesn’t necessarily mean there was more commitment to it, right?.
There’s always been something a little bit scrappy about Augsburg, and um, so there may be the
very fact of the small pamphlets that it started out as, um, have a kind of charm to them, um, and
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grit to them, charm and grit at the same time, that I really admire. Um, funding I imagine was
very small, uh, at the time. They’ve worked and built up a kind of way of being funded that
works much better now. And it’s also cheaper to print now, than it was then. Um, but, um, it’s
interesting, we found poems that still speak to us, stories that still speak to us. Uh, we found
writers. It was interesting to see, not, the students didn’t know this, but a couple of the stories
they picked are by, um, Paul Kilgore, who is, um, a well-recognized writer from the area. He
lives up in Duluth. Uh, graduated here, I think around 1980, and is primarily a lawyer, but he has
also been nominated for a Minnesota book award for his, uh, short stories, and we found some
wonderful little pieces by him. Um, without students, I didn’t say to students, look for Paul
Kilgore if you see that name, you know pull them out. They just went ahead and found them, uh,
just by reading through the issues and saying, “This story, this is really good, let’s include this.”
And so we’ve started to see some of that, um, those names popping up. We’ve mostly looked at
things from the 70s, and then a little bit in the 90s and the 2000s, so, right now there’s, I think we
did one issue in the 80s, so there’s a kind of gap there that I really think we might hone in on
next fall. Um, so this is what I mean about discovering the answer to that question. Right now
we’re just beginning to pull the work together, um, to see well what’s the variety? Again, we
know it wasn’t as diverse a place. Um, also, and this is true even as we become more diverse, I
think it’s only recently that I would say even the staff of Murphy Square has, um, diversified in
some major ways, um, people were interested in working on it. And so that’s an issue I think,
um, that students, because it is largely student run, um, want to think about. You know, how do
we get more people, who we know are doing writing, um, to submit things for the, for the
journal, so that it becomes more representative of the student body. But that’ll be interesting to
see, you know, what does it look like over time, and who’s contributing, and what kinds of
things are they writing about? There was a wonderful little piece, um, called “Overalls” or “My
Overalls” by Camille Carnes, who I knew when she was here, Cami Carnes, and the students just
loved it. It’s about being hung up in the closet by your overalls when you were a kid, and it
sounds like abuse, but it is one of the funniest, most charming poems you could imagine, but it’s
also about gender in a way that’s very modern, and it was done decades ago. Um, right around
the time that things like, uh, the first sort of, kind of the predecessors to QPA and other groups
on campus were coming into being. It’s a really fascinating piece.
31:40 Clara Higgins: Yeah, very cool. So, I guess this relates to also the tradition, um, regarding,
um, Augsburg, um. On your Augsburg biography, um, you talk a bit about, um, where your
office is, so, “The snaking corridor on which my colleagues and I have our offices is the closest
thing you’ll find in the Twin Cities to an 18th century coffeehouse, minus the coffee,” um, and
you talk about how you are fortunate to be part of this tradition, um, can you talk about like the
relation, um, of this to the atmosphere and environment on campus with the faculty?
32:20 Douglas Green: Right, so, it’s really more that right outside this door, and I’m right
opposite the restroom, so everybody, that’s how I met everybody. I’ve been in this office from
the very beginning, and I actually wrote about it for Augsburg Now at one point, there’s an
article. Um, oh gosh, it’s got to be ten of fifteen years ago now. Um, but my closet, here, that’s
what I consider it because it’s one of the smaller offices on campus, um, has been really a kind
of, on a hallway where we’ll be standing out in the hall and we’ll be discussing politics, and the
people from religion, who we’re going to miss when they go over to the new building, so I don’t
know exactly what’s going to happen to our coffee shop here, to our coffeehouse. But, um, we’d
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be standing out there just talking about campus politics, you know, what’s the president doing,
uh, you know whether it was President Anderson or President Frame or President Pribbenow,
um, or the deans, or whoever, but also talking about, um, art, politics on the larger scale which is
certainly occupying us right now. Um, that’s what I mean about it being sort of an 18th century
coffeehouse. This is where we’ll just suddenly stop and, uh, you know kind of stand around out
here. It’s the most inhospitable looking environment in some ways, these narrow hallways, but
maybe the narrowness of them makes us more attuned, uh, to gathering together there, so, I’ll
miss the, at least half of our hallway’s going to be gone, so that’s gonna be. I don’t know what
we’re going to do about that.
34:15 Clara Higgins: Um, so you, you just talked a bit about, um, you know, working with other,
talking with other departments. How, how is that, um?. Do you work a lot with other
departments, um, I guess you do teach in other departments, but are there other ways in which,
um, you connect with other departments to, you know, make your teaching more, uh,
(interdisciplinary)?
34:41 Green: Right, so I can talk about that on two levels, um, so one would be, um, on a kind of
macro level, if you will. Uh, when I developed the drama sequence, it was because, um, the
theater department, um, for their, the people studying directing in particular, um, and other areas
that was useful for them; dramaturgical work, those kinds of things. So, the curriculum for
English expanded in a way that also brought some people in from theater. We have a lot of
double majors and what not. Um, we have women’s studies classes in our department, that kind
of thing. So there are, we also have some courses taught by, um, language and cultural studies
Prof, um, Michael Kidd, who does our medieval and some of our early renaissance courses now
which is his area of specialty, uh, his specialty and area of expertise. And, um, in American
Indian studies Elise Marubbio teaches both film and, um, literature classes that also, um, count
for those majors which we’re involved in as well. And we contribute, of course, to the film
major. So, that’s one way in which those things happen, environmental studies as well. So the
English department, some people say we’ve got our fingers in everybody’s business. And, I think
it’s always, in some ways, been like that. It’s a, it’s a field that, um, expands out. I mean, people
will often, even in other disciplines teach a novel or something, and the same is true. We’re
interested in what’s going out there, and the way in which say sociology is affecting things. So
for me personally, it’s really manifested itself, not only in teaching courses that serve other
departments and developing courses that serve other departments, as well as our own, but in um,
actually team teaching with other members of the faculty. So I mentioned Diane Pike and
teaching in sociology. I took a class too, I taught a class, an English class alongside, uh, Nancy
Fischer, another sociologist and urban studies prof, who, uh, we went to Denmark, we went to
Copenhagen and we took students there, and I was teaching Danish literature in which I am not
expert, but became as expert as quickly I could. It was a lower level course, so, I didn’t have to
become, you know, the definitive expert on Danish lit, um, but, um, it was fascinating. I mean, I
love learning about it. We’re going back it looks like, uh, and I’ve got a lot more stuff I know
now, and I’m very excited about that. And that’s actually the way, I, this is my own belief, but if
you want to remain a vital teacher, you have to be learning at the same time, and that’s one of the
things I love about the Augsburg faculty, is that people are always developing new stuff, they’re
not kind of just sitting back and, and rolling with what they knew. Um, and, uh, I think we feed
each other in that regard. So I’ve done that work, um with Nancy, um, a lot of work on what’s
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become the queer theory class. It wasn’t called that originally, because you couldn’t call it that to
put it in the catalog when I started out. Um, but that I’ve taught with… It happens that all of the
people I’ve taught with for that class didn’t have to be this, but all the people I’ve taught, um,
that class with have been in religion. Um, so Bev Stratton was the first, Janelle Bussert, and now
Mary Lowe. Um, and I just love doing that. I love team-, that’s really, I don’t think there’s a
better way of kind of developing as a faculty member than team teaching with somebody else. So
I’ve taught with my own colleague Bob Cowgill, we both taught the contemporary American
poetry, uh, class, the modern American poetry class, and that was absolutely fabulous to do that.
We’re going to teach a course, before I retire, on the American musical, um, American movie
musicals, and, um, it’s going to be great, I’m just warning you. Uh, that’s a passion we both
have. We come at it from very different angles, but um, that would be, I think a just a lovely
thing, um, to teach. And I’m just trying to think if I’ve team, then I’ve done like sort of guest
lectures in other peoples’ classes. Adriane Brown, I come into her, um, theory classes et cetera,
so, uh. And so again in gender, sexuality, and women’s studies, um, and I love doing that kind of
work. I love the kind of work where you’re learning about somebody else’s discipline. Um, so
thinking with Nancy about design, and thinking about, well how would that affect the way that,
um, how does that play into, do we see any similarities in the way that the literature works, um,
would be one kind of question one might ask. But I think even more, um, we, actually, oddly
enough set up our exploration of Copenhagen by using a whole set of film Noir stories, detective
stories that brought us around the city. So, Nancy was actually adjusting her class to meet the
sort of blueprint of the stories themselves which were set in various neighborhoods.
40:51 Clara Higgins: Very cool.
40:52 Douglas Green: Yeah, it was, it was a lot of fun.
40:55 Clara Higgins: Um, so I guess as we kind of finish off the interview, um, what, um, since
the sesquicentennial is coming up, um, is there a way that you think that will strengthen the
community of Augsburg, or will that change, um, how, um, faculty, um, teach? It’s an institution
that’s been around for a long time, um, does that affect how the college is, um, as an educational
institution?
41:29 Douglas Green: Yeah, that’s a good question. I mean one answer to it is, no, it’s not going
to have any affect at all, in the sense that we’re going to keep doing what we do, changing as we
change, and have changed, um, I don’t think that will change. I do think, I do think it maybe
gives us a somewhat different sense of ourselves, and these are hard times for institutions of
higher learning, um, and we’re an institution that has a long history of teaching immigrant
populations. I mean this is not, actually what’s happening here is not new, it’s just a different
group of immigrants that we’re teaching, um, and children of immigrants. Um, so in one way,
there’s a case where nothing’s going to change, right, and yet at the same time, everything is
changing. And I think the sesquicentennial maybe gives us a bit of a sense of the longevity of
that project, and the fact that it will persist into the future. I think sometimes it’s easy to think, oh
my gosh, this is all going to come to an end. Even academics are prone to apocalyptic thinking
sometimes, right. Um, and I think the answer to that, and the sesquicentennial reminds us of this,
is no, it’s not going to end, it may, we may have periods of belt tightening and we may have
periods of relative affluence. I’ve lived through both on this campus. Um, but I really do believe
10
that, uh, we’re well situated not just to survive, but to thrive, and to really, um, improve the lives
of those that come here. Um, help them, uh, do important work, do work that matters to them and
to our community, our communities, really. So, yeah, I think it’s more as a kind of memorial
function, um, and that sounds like death, but it’s not, but I think it’s got this sense of, it’s
monumental in some ways, right?. We have something we can see. We have work over a century
and a half that I think we can be justly proud of. And we can admit some mistakes we’ve made,
and learn from them and move on.
44:10 Clara Higgins: Um, is there anything else that we didn’t talk about that you would like to
add?
44:16 Douglas Green: Well, I’m, I’m very pleased. It was actually an interesting experience for
me to think back on my, uh, my time here, and sort of, um, what it might mean. It’s reminded me
again, I think, of um, how much the people at this place have had an impact on me, and if I’ve
had a small impact on them, that would be just great. Thanks very much.
44:43 Clara Higgins: Yes, thank you very much for your time.
Show less
Interview with Michael Kidd
Augsburg HIS300 Oral History Project
Interviewed by Anthony Valeri
3/10/17
..
Michael Kidd : MK
Anthony Valeri : AV
00:02 AV: So today is March 10, 2017. I'm sitting here today here with Michael Kidd of
Augsburg College. He is the Director of Medieval Studie... Show more
Interview with Michael Kidd
Augsburg HIS300 Oral History Project
Interviewed by Anthony Valeri
3/10/17
..
Michael Kidd : MK
Anthony Valeri : AV
00:02 AV: So today is March 10, 2017. I'm sitting here today here with Michael Kidd of
Augsburg College. He is the Director of Medieval Studies and the Associate Professor of the
Language Arts and Cross-Cultural Studies. Michael, how are you doing today?
00:15 MK: Good, Thanks.
00: 17 AV: Could you tell us a little about yourself to get things started. Where are you from?
What was your family life like? Did you participate in any activities growing up?
00:26 MK: I grew up in Louisiana, so the deep south, from a family of five. I was the youngest
of five. My father was a biologist who worked for the state of Louisiana. My mother was a
homemaker. Yep, I guess.
00:49 AV: When did you find your passion for learning different languages and the medieval
studies?
00:59 MK: Languages started pretty early in middle-school. I had,just kind ofby accident, I got
placed into a Spanish classes as an elective and I liked- and this would have been about 7th grade
- and I really liked it- you know it wasn't really learning language at that point it was sort of
vocabulary lists and verb paradigms. But I really liked the grammar, puzzlings through the
grammar and it helped me with my own English grammar, and it helped me with writing. So I
stuck with it. I kept studying it through high school and when I got to college I kept with it. I
didn't think I wanted to be a language major in college initially, I was going to do Philosophy;
but I studied abroad in Spain in my sophomore year and that's what kind of sealed the deal for me
in terms of Spanish. When I came back, I decided I wanted to study additional languages so I
studied French and Latin as well; then later on in graduate school, German and Greek for reading
knowledge.
I didn't really get into medieval studies until later. Actually, I guess I would say, coming to
Augsburg because of the medieval studies program here. I had studied Medieval Literature as
part of my doctoral degree and I had taught medieval literature as part of courses here and there,
but I had never really focused on it in my teaching. When I came to Augsburg with the great
medieval studies program, I got involved with that and started teaching more and more in the
program and eventually became Director.
02:47 AV: Would you mind elaborating what medieval topics you chose for your doctorate?
02:53 MK: Yes. So I didn't, that's the thing. I wrote my dissertation, so I did my PhD in Spanish
and Classics, so I wrote my dissertation on Greco-Roman mythology in Spanish theatre. So the
periods that I focused on were the Renaissance and the 20th century, because those-were the two
richest periods in which Spanish playwrights were working on Classical Mythology. In the
course of doing my PhD, I - you have to take an exam, a field exam and that covered Medieval
literature. So I read a good bit of medieval literature in my doctoral program; but it didn't
specifically go into my dissertation.
03:53 AV: Ok, so what-did you plan on becoming a professor after you gradated with your PhD?
What was your goal?
04:09 MK: Yes, absolutely. I actually thought as an undergrad that I wanted to be a professor
and that's why I went to grad school, because you pretty much need a PhD to be a professor if
you want a permanent position. So that was kind of my plan all along when I decided to go to
graduate school and I came out of graduate school after I got my PhD and was lucky to get a
teaching job right away. That was my first position at the University of New Mexico.
04:40 AV: Could you elaborate on that? Could you share with us with how you came to
Augsburg? I noticed on your biography online that you taught at- (pause)
04:50 MK: Yes, I can go over the sequence with you. I started at the University of New Mexico,
which was my first job in Albuquerque. And that was a very good position right out of graduate
school and I ended up staying there eight years. But I decided I wanted to go to a smaller place you know- it was a pretty big state university. So I came to Minnesota and initially taught at
Carleton College; which is a small college in Northfield where I still live. I moved around from
Carleton to Macalester, then from Macalester to St. Olaf; but those were all short-term
appointments- and the position for Augsburg came up, which was a permanent position so I
applied for that and got it. So that is how I ended up here.
05 :41 AV: Were all these short-term positions based on teaching language arts and cross-cultural
studies?
05:45 MK: Yes, they were all in language departments, mhm.
05:50 AV: What year did you join the Augsburg faculty and what did you work on initially?
What position did you hold initially?
05: 57 MK: Sure, so I came in- in 2008 and I was - trying to remember- my title was Associate
professor of Language and Cross Cultural Studies without tenure. So I was here two years before
I was awarded tenure. And initially in the first few years, I - a lot of my teaching was language,
beginning in intermediate language classes- and I would say only in the past three or four years
have I started teaching more medieval studies. I still teach language classes but it's not my full
teaching load.
06:49 AV: So you had experience in Medieval Studies writing your dissertation. Did you have to
take any other studies with - in order to become director of Medieval Studies?
07:10 MK: No. What I did was when Phil Adamo, who was director of the program previously,
decided that he wanted to step down from the directorship- and he is currently director of the
honors program- he asked me if I was interested and I said yes. I certainly was interested. I felt
like I needed to - do some study of my own so I could bring myself up to speed to direct the
program and teach the HUM120, Intro to Medieval Studies class. So what I did was the last
semester he taught the class I sat in and attended all the classes. So I could get a feel for his
teaching style and the material that he covered. I kind of inherited his approach to the course and
I have been teaching that way for two years now; but I think now that I feel that I have more
experience teaching the class, I would like to spend some time redoing it and kind of reinventing
it in my own way.
08:27 AV: What was Augsburg like when you joined in 2008?
08:30 MK.: Hmm. Well, I came in the middle of the financial crisis of 2008. The stock market
had just plunged. We had a presidential election. It was an exciting and scary time for the
finances of the college. Enrollment was in quite a bit of flux. It was a very different student body
back then - I mean, it's amazing, only nine years ago- but the face of the student body has really
changed since then. It has become a more diverse student body. So when I first came the first
couple years it was still majority white middle-class student body I would say, and that the
admissions office has really made efforts to diversify and go after much wider socio-economic
ranges of students.
09:35 AV: Has the college during the financial crisis done anything different to combat it?
09:43 MK: Heh, that's a great question. For a while, you know, it was pretty rough and I think
that about five years ago? Maybe four? A lot of staff were laid off and that was one of the
responses to the crisis. I think we- I think the college has assembled a pretty good team of vice
presidents. The whole-almost the entire administration has changed except the President since I
arrived. So, we have a new vice president for marketing, a new vice president for enrollment.
And it seems like a pretty good team and they have a pretty good strategy going forward and I
think we turned a comer.
10:35 AV: What is the strategy going forward?
10:37 MK.: Well, they- I think- I think you should talk to the VP's to get a clearer idea but my
sense is that they have attempted to broaden the - admissions base for the college - what they
would call the admissions funnel. One of the issues at Augsburg is that we don't have a huge
endowment like a college like Macalester or Carleton has - which is a pile of money that just sits
there and the college spends the interest, right? So it's like a savings account, but the interest that
at a place like Macalester and the size of the endowment can be significant, right? So millions of
dollars they can get from the interest of the endowment. Augsburg isn't-doesn't have that, which
means that we depend very heavily on student tuition. So if- if enrollment drops by forty or fifty
students in a year - at a place like Carleton that wouldn't make a dent, right? Because the
endowment income could make up the difference. At Augsburg that is not the case and if the
enrollment drops forty students, that's a crisis - a financial crisis. So the administration has tried
to come up with an enrollment strategy that will ensure that they always have- a big pool of
student applicants to draw from to keep enrollment steady
12: 14 AV: What are the positives and negatives of that? You mentioned just now that Augsburg
would have the safety net from funding, but what are the negatives in broadening applications?
12:27 MK: Well, that is a good question. It's -you know- honestly, I don't see any negatives
myself because I think the quality of the students is still very good. I suppose that a negative
could be that if you basically open the doors to every student because you want tuition from
them, that - you know - you might be accepting students who may not be ready for college. And
I suppose some faculty might say that has happened - I don't see it myself in my classes. I
believe the quality of students in my classes has remained consistent.
13:13 AV: Could you share with us your participation in Augsburg clubs, committees, and
academic groups?
13:21 MK: Sure. So committees, I'm currently on the faculty senate- which is the chief
governing body of the faculty. It is twelve faculty members who are elected to the senate. It is a
two year term and I am in my first year. It is the main organ for faculty governance - so anything
about the curriculum or the academic program of the college has to go through the faculty senate
as well as lots of other things that would be asked of us to consider. So it's a pretty important
body. We meet every other week and make some pretty important decisions. We don't ever - you
know- make important decisions on our own in isolation. Anything important we would talk
about, maybe take a vote, and take before the entire faculty at the general faculty meetings. We
kind of get the first look on a lot of things. I'm also on the Committee for tenure and promotion,
known as CTP - and that is the college committee that reviews candidates, faculty candidates,
who are coming up for tenure and or promotion and we make recommendations on those files for
if their case should be approved or not. Those are the two faculty committees that I am on this
year. I'm also faculty sponsor of a student group called the Classical and Medieval reading group
- and that is again a student group that meets every week to explore readings Classical and
Medieval literature. It was kind of a spinoff of one of my courses; some of my students wanted
to continue reading so we formed that group.
15:33 AV: As [briefly, perhaps falsely interpreted] mentioned by Professor Jacqui deVries in one
of my other courses, HIS480. She had mentioned that over the years, Augsburg has become more
and more bureaucratic and our presentations would be assessed by a Minnesota standardmandatory standards- do you believe Augsburg is becoming more bureaucratic?
16:00 MK: Tell me what you mean by bureaucratic
16:02 AV: Meaning that Augsburg is working with other schools and committees that have
basically set standards to assess students
16: 13MK: Yes, if you are talking about assessment of student learning in particular, yes. I would
agree with that statement. I don't think- don't think that - It's not a decision that Augsburg has
made itself that we're going to become more bureaucratic. It has to do with federal guidelines,
right? State guidelines, right? External bodies that hold colleges accountable mainly because
tuition has become so high and students and their parents- right - they want to make sure they are
getting their money's worth and that the college does what it says it is going to do in educating
students. So these external bodies hold us accountable - right? - for certain standards and that has
to be- they ask us to come up with assessment processes that can be documented so that we can
show that if our mission says "We foster critical thinking ability in students" we can actually
prove that we can do that. That has become a bigger and bigger issue- but again it's not really
because Augsburg is necessarily chosen but it's our crediting body- the Higher Leaming
Commission - most colleges go through a accreditation process every ten years or so. If you
aren't accredited then you aren't really a legitimate college and so as part of the accreditation
process, the accreditors will ask what you are doing in terms of student assessment: How are you
assessing student learning? How are you proving you are doing what you say you do? As part of
our last assessment process - which is about three years ago - the assessment movement in higher
[education] had really kicked in and we we're part ofit and we had to do it.
18: 13 AV: What plans do you have for the future of language arts, cross cultural studies and your
medieval studies department
18:25 MK: We are currently in - Jacqui deVries, actually, who is the director of general
education, is undergoing a general- a review of general education, the general education program
of the college. And the last - the last - the current gen. ed program was approved twelve or
thirteen years ago and she just feels and the provost feels and I think that most faculty agree that
it's time to look at that and see if it needs to be updated. So one of the things that rm involved in
with that and that has to do with the language department is that the college wide language
requirement at Augsburg; which is currently as you probably already know, two semesters,
right? So most students have to study two semesters of a foreign language in order to graduate;
with a few exceptions there. So one of the things that I- my department would like is to at least
think about extending that requirement because we don't believe that two semesters is sufficient
for- developing ·competency in a foreign language so we are hoping to extend that to three or
maybe even four. Most of our - institutions that we like to compare ourselves to have a threefour semester requirement. So that's one thing. In terms of medieval studies, I think I would like
to think about expanding into Renaissance and maybe rebranding the program to Medieval and
Renaissance studies. In a sense that it's already that; because the - the program - the classes that
are required for the major include classes in the Renaissance. There is a class in Martin Luther,
there is a class on Shakespeare that count. Those are renaissance classes. So it would really be
renaming the program and I think hopefully attract more students because of that if the students
see that if the name actually reflects the reality of the program.
20:46 AV: Going back to what you were talking about extending the language requirement to
three-four semesters, do you think that would impact how long students stay here when working
towards other majors?
20:59 MK: Yeah. So that's one of the battles, right? If we try to do this, it would certainly
impinge on certain segments of the student body, for sure. So right now, there is no standard
number of classes that a major - you have to have in a major. So when - if you are a Spanish
major or a German major, it is around ten or eleven classes, something like forty credits. If you
are a biology major or a chemistry major, it is more like sixteen or seventeen classes. So the
science majors in particular, especially if they are doing a Bachelor of Science instead of
Bachelor of Arts, there are additional requirements. Some of our science majors in particular
have trouble, even with the two semester requirement. The other segment of the student body
that it would be difficult for would be the adult student body who are studying at night because
they are trying to cram everything- right- into a night, into an evening schedule. So that's
something that we are going to have to think carefully about. We do take that seriously, we don't
want to make it harder for students to get their degree and we might have to think creatively
about ways that we would allow them to satisfy the requirement that wouldn't slow them down;
such as online language learning, or community service that includes language and cultural
involvement. Yeah. We are still- still thinking of that, thinking that through.
22:43 AV: So, we've talked about some changes in the college, how the school has handled the
financial crisis, the increase in diversity among students. What in your opinion would the future
of Augsburg be? What goals should the institution make effort to fulfill?
23:07 MK: Wow, that's a great question. Well, this is a very biased point of view from my ownit reflects my own interests. But I would like to see from the administration more - greater
commitment to the humanities and fme arts. I would like to see something along the lines of a
classics or classical studies major which we don't currently have - or haven't had for a long time.
I would like to see more commitment to the fine arts: art, music, theatre in particular. I think
those disciplines in particular are the public face of the college, right? If you think about how the
community interacts with Augsburg, it's coming to a play, right? It's coming to a Vespers
concert, right? It's coming to an art opening. I think it's money well spent ifwe invest in those
departments because the public will see it and it would be its own reward in that sense.
24:45 AV: Do you have any concluding thoughts or stories that you would like to share?
24:53 MK: What'd I say... I kind of ended up at Augsburg the - way a lot of people end up in an
academic position. In a way it's luck of the draw because you apply for the jobs that are
available in the year that you are applying and you don't necessarily know what the place is like.
I didn't know a lot about Augsburg before I came here but I feel like I made my home here. I
really love the institution. I feel pretty fondly for it and I hope we have turned the comer
financially. I think that we have, I do feel confident in that. We have a sesquicentennial
celebration in 2019. We are changing the name of the college to Augsburg University, we have a
brand new science building that is almost complete - so I think that the future is bright for the
institution and I am happy to be a part of it.
26:06 AV: With the construction of the new science building, do you think Augsburg will go the
path that you would like it to be from a more fine arts point of view to more of a
technical/science based?
26:21 MK: Yeah, I think there are some good signs there. It's not just a science building, the
name of the building is actually Center for Science, Business, and Religion. So there will be
several academic departments housed there and there has been a lot of talk about what can come
from housing those three departments in that building and that kind of - interdisciplinary
synergies that would come out of it. And the other thing that is exciting about the building is that
they have created - are in the process of requisitioning original artwork to decorate the building.
They're doing it in a very smart way financially; which is they get a local artist who has an idea
for murals, statues, whatever they think would look nice in the building and they come up with a
description for that piece of art - and they get a donor who is willing to donate a sum of money to
sponsor that piece of art and have their name attached to it somehow. So it is a great idea because
you get a beautiful piece of art out of it and a chunk of money that our donors are willing to give.
So, in an interesting way, everyone thinks of it as a new science building but it does have some
potential to create interest in some of the other disciplines as well.
27:58 AV: Over the eight years coming onto nine that you have worked here, have you seen an
increase or decrease in the amount of students pursuing a fine arts degree? The fine arts,
humanities, medieval studies?
28:18 MK: I don't know ifl have those numbers. My sense is that the numbers have dropped off.
I can definitely say that the number of students who study languages has declined and we've lost
a number of full-time tenure-track positions in my department that haven't been replaced: one in
German, one in French, one in Norwegian. And the administration's argument for not replacing
them is that there aren't enough students studying those languages. I understand that argument
because the numbers have declined and if you - you know - making an investment in a faculty
member - a new tenure-tracked faculty member- it's a big commitment from the point of view as
the college. If you hire somebody and there aren't many students who take their classes, it's a
problem. All that is to say that study - language study in particular - has dropped off quite a bit
since I've been here. I think that part of it might be that the new demographics of the new
students that we are talking about - it's a more urban student body from all different socioeconomic strata - and they are not necessarily students who are interested in taking languages
and I think that is part of the reason that the study of languages has dropped off.
29:56 AV: How would you get students invested back into languages and the fme arts?
30:07 MK: That's a great question... You would need to convince them that it is something
worthwhile. you need to convince students - you know what I think, unfortunately, a lot of
students have had bad experiences with languages in particular in high school because they
hadn't been taught the right way, so students have these preconceptions about language either
that it is hard to learn or even if you do learn it, it's not useful. We need to do a better job at
explaining to students the usefulness of studying a foreign language and the doors it could open
up to you. I would argue the same with the other disciplines - you know - the English department
has to do the same thing for English majors to explain the value of an English major and
Philosophy - the importance of a Philosophy major.
31 :09 AV: During my study here at Augsburg, I've studied abroad twice and that has got me
invested in going down the path of History - finishing my degree- I'm proud I've chose this path
of study. Do you think more- more study abroad programs or interactive programs would get
students invested into those fme arts and cross-cultural studies?
31 :36 MK: Yes, I do. I think that study abroad has been identified - it's called a high impact
program. So in other words, it's a program that deeply affects students that can be transformative
that can be, just as with yourself, can make- help them make decisions about what they want to
do. I hear this story all the time, students who go abroad and come back and they've been
transformed. It happened to me as a student as well. The problem is access to Study Abroad as
you know. It's not cheap. It can often cost more than studying here for a semester. And that's
something the college is going to have to ask itself - if - you know- if it wants to make that a
priority it is going to have to invest money and make it more affordable for students. But I think
it definitely would - you know- be the impulse in creating interest in studying languages and
foreign cultures.
32:52 AV: Did you have any say over the change in the name of the institution from Augsburg
College to Augsburg University? And if so, what was the thought process behind the change?
33 :05 MK: Yeah, that's a great question. I don't feel like the faculty - I'm speaking for the
faculty - ever had much say in it. I feel like it was kind of a done deal - right? - from the
beginning. And I understand the reasons for it. I think that - you know- in reality we already are
a university so the name change reflects the reality. It is kind of what I was saying about the
medieval studies, it's really Medieval and Renaissance Studies and so if we change the name it
would just be reflecting the reality. There are some good reasons for it as well in terms of student
recruitment, especially international students. In Spanish- speaking countries for example, the
word colegio which [we interpret as] "college" means high school. So when a Spanish speaker
sees Augsburg College, they are not necessarily clear that it is a university, right? They may feel
like it's a private high school. So the name change could have real impact on recruiting
international students, especially in Spanish-speaking countries. But I don't feel like - you know we certainly did have discussions about it among the faculty but I don't really remember the
faculty being given a vote, a chance to say 'yes, we want this change', or 'no, we don't want this
change'. I feel like it would have been nice to have a more deliberative process even if the result
had been - probably would have been the same thing.
34:53 AV: Have you ever worked in your cross-cultural studies work - have you ever been with
the Center of Global Education?
35:05 MK: Sure
35:05 AV: Where have you been to?
35 :09 MK: About five years ago, I guess it was, I went to our - so we have a campus in Mexico
and another in Central America. I went there in late summer to - just kind of to observe - kind of
like a quality control sight report, site visit. I sat in on classes talked to some of the instructors,
some of the students who were there at the time. I just wanted to get a sense of the learning that
was going on and the pedagogy that was being used and - I came away pretty impressed with it's a very unique pedagogy based on social justice and equality that they used on both of those
campuses. Yeah, it was a very great trip
36:02 AV: Do you think the Augsburg Center of Global Education should make better efforts in
attracting an international body of students?
36:14 MK.: I think the college should do that for sure. I'm not sure if it's the Center of Global
Education's role, I guess maybe it is. The way I think of the Center of Global Education is
sending American students abroad and not bringing international students to Augsburg. But I
suppose it can be a two-way street and it can be the same organization that's doing both.
Whoever is in control of bringing International students to Augsburg, I think they should do
more of it for sure, yeah.
36:51 AV: How has Augsburg improved in terms of playing a community role in the Twin
Cities, in Minneapolis?
36:59 MK: I think that's one of our strengths and it has been that way for a while, certainly when
I came here. We have a very strong internship program at Augsburg. I think we got a Presidential
award several years ago from President Obama for our internship program so I think the college
has a pretty strong presence in the community and is pretty well-respected in the community; in
particular this neighborhood of Cedar Riverside; which is an amazingly diverse neighborhood. I
think the college has a pretty strong presence and - a fair number of solid community contacts
that it can send students to for internships or whatever it may be.
37 :49 AV: Are these internships in a particular field or is there a large variety?
37:56 MK: There's a large variety. I mean, speaking for my department in particular, students
often do internships at one of the nonprofit organizations that serve the Latino communities. I've
had students who literally do daycare with children of Latino parents who cannot afford daycare.
I've had students who tutor adults in terms of adult literacy and most departments have sort of you know - two or three organizations in the cities that they work with and send students to for
internships.
38:41 AV: So would these intern.ships possibly be used when talking about extending the number
languages courses to three or four? Could these internships potentially be used for that?
38:55 MK: Yeah, that's a-when I sort of indicated creative ways of reaching this goal that could
certainly be one. In a way, it would serve several purposes at once because one of the
impediments that many students find to graduate is the Augsburg Experience and the Augsburg
Experience is supposed to be one of these high impact experiences, either intern.ships, study
abroad, etc. And for whatever reason, students are busy and I understand that. They may find it
hard to get off campus, to carve out the amount of time in their schedule to do this Augsburg
Experience. If we were to combine language learning and the Augsburg Experience, it is kind of
two birds and one stone, so it could potentially be a creative way of solving that problem.
40:00 AV: Great! Do you have any concluding thoughts as we wrap up?
40:03 MK: No. Just what I said earlier, I am happy to be at Augsburg and I look forward to a
great future.
40: 11 AV: Thank you very much, Michael
40: 12 MK: Yeah, thank you.
Show less
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
... Show more
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
experience and time at Augsburg University. Winston Heckt graduated in 2019 from Augsburg
University. So Winston, thank you for coming today! l appreciate you taking time out of your
day to do this interview. So, in order to start, can you please say your name and where you were
born?
WH: Yeah! My name is Winston Heckt and I was born in Minneapolis.
CE: What are your pronouns?
WH: I use he/him/his pronouns.
CE: Did you grow up in Minneapolis?
WH: No, I grew up in Anoka, Minnesota. So, I was born in Minneapolis because my dad works
at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital-so I was born there-but nope; grew up in Anoka, Halloween
capital of the world. Spooky place. Kind of-pretty conservative/pretty white-kind of area. And
so-as I was kind of bouncing out of that, looking into like where I was going to go for
college-I looked at a couple of other places-
CE: Oh, wait, wait. Do you mind ifwe backtrack a little bit?
WH: Yeah, let's backtrack!
CE: Yeah, yeah!
WH: I'm slipping. Yeah, absolutely.
CE: So, how was your childhood like? You mentioned briefly about it, but growing up in
Anoka?
WH: It was good. Anoka's a good place, I think, for-well okay, I'm kind of a liar.
CE: (laughs)
WH: Well actually, I grew up-like
Minnesota-
technically, the house where I lived is in Andover
CE: Oh.
WH:-which is right next to Anoka. I went to Anoka High School and like middle schools-I
was in the Anoka School District, so I just like to tell for clarity and ease of conversation-I tell
people I am from Anoka. I feel a much tighter bond to Anoka. But, it's a good area because it's
kind of like-well, I mean it's-okay so like-politics and everything aside, just like
geographically, it's you know-it's like real, cusp of suburb and country where like-like I lived
thirty seconds away from a turkey fann.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, just like wide-open spaces. Lots of-you know-wildlife and nature; so like, a great
place for little kids to be-you know-running around and playing outside; that kind of thing. So
like, I had a pretty good like-and also, I was pretty like-I'm mixed heritage: my mom's Black
and my dad's white; and my parents are divorced, so I was pretty much raised by my white
father, so I was pretty much raised white. He kind of had-took kind of-I suppose, a colorblind
approach to things, you know. And he was kind of a conservative dude, so I like didn't like
fully-I didn't necessarily know about-like it wasn't in my-kind of scope of understanding
what was quite so shitty about Anoka. I like knew it on an instinctual level because I am
also-so I am pansexual and Anoka was pretty-a pretty homophobic place. There was-when I
was-it was like a little bit before my time-I was alive I guess, but I was kind of like a young
kid while it was going on-but there was like a string of suicides by like young kids; middle
schoolers, high schoolers. Some who were LGBTQIA community; others who weren't, but were
bullied by people calling them-you know-slurs and all that. (Laughs) So, not a real great place
to be for that kind of thing. So like, that part of myself was something that I had-had kind of
like unknowingly just closed off until I got out of that environment and I was like, Okay, I don't
have to have to-there's so much more to like, who people can be and I can just kind of live life
as I see fit. But so, growing up in Anoka was pretty solid, you know. I had a good time; it wasn't
too bad of a-too bad of a childhood. No.
CE: Mmhmm. Well, that's good! How was your education like there?
WH: It was-I mean jeez, it's public education. I went to public school and so-I mean-well,
it was kind of-it was alright; I was kind of an outsider. I think one because I was kind of a
weird kid and two, because I was one of like-other than my siblings-two Black kids in my
elementary school.
CE: Oh, shit.
2
WH: And like, the other kid had a learning disability so I wasn't even around him all the time
like all the time, right; so most of the time, I was the only Black kid around. And so, I got
like-yeah, people-I was really kind of ostracized and shit by my peers, so I kind of became a
recluse. When my-so, my parents got divorced when I was like-kindergarten or first grade, I
kind of forget-real young and my mom moved into a house that was really close to my dad;
didn't have to switch schools or anything, which was real nice. But she ended up moving to
Arizona partway through my sixth-grade year, and at that point, that was when I switched and
started going through Anoka school and stuff. So, that kind of presented me an opportunity to
like get away from my bullied past and kind of like start fresh, you know? And so, what I did
then was kind of close myself off and keep a low profile and hope to not get bullied and kind of
focused in on school. And so-I mean like, I liked school. It was alright (laughs). Oh jeez; you
know, the crap they teach you. They don't teach you the important stuff. Like, I don't know how
to do taxes; I don't know how to balance a budget; I don't know how to sew-I don't have those
decent skills. The history that they teach is really suspect-I put that in air-quotes (both
laugh)-you know, that kind of crap. So you know, your pretty mainstream education. But like I
think Anoka is a pretty-I'm not sure where they sit in terms of ranking of schools, but I think
it's a pretty solid-like it was a solid place to get an education and more or less, I did okay.
Really kind of the only place-math I was kind of-I was failed. I was left behind as early as
elementary school. Like, I don't know how to do-I can't multiply in my head. I have to do like
the addition the long way, because my third-grade elementary school teacher -whose name I
don't know, maybe it was Larson? It doesn't really matter (laughs)-she was a jerk! She didn't
mean how to like-yeah, and you know right, that's kind of how the school system goes. Instead
of sticking with it and teaching people stuff, it's like, Hey; we gotta move along here so if you
don't learn it in time, it's kind of like hey! Shit out of luck. And then that-I ended up being
okay, but then my academic advisor-somehow, I got lost in the shuffle and before you'd take
Algebra Two, there was like-I think it's called Algebra with Quadratics or something like that.
Well, I didn't take that class because no one told me I had to take that class--or it would be
smart to because it wasn't technically required; just kind of like heavily-it would be smart to
take it. So, I rolled right out of Geometry into Algebra Two without the quadratics crap, so I
didn't know what the hell I was doing! And the teachers I had for that were like the two worst
math teachers in the whole school and so, I barely scraped by. It kind of tanked my GPA and that
kind of put a chip in my shoulder so when I ended up at Augsburg-because of like oohh, you
know-Summa Cum Laude-Summa, is that the highest one? Yeah, it is Summa. So I think
because-perhaps because my academic dreams were dashed in high school, I felt like I had to
compensate in college.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, I'm really getting off.
CE: No!
WH: What did you even ask me? I don't even know what I'm talking about (laughs).
3
CE: No, that is perfect! I mean my net question was just going to ask-can you briefly describe
your high school experience?
WH: Yeah, sure! So, I like-my first year in high school like-I was pretty-so like I said, I
pretty kind of like a recluse when I switched over to Anoka. And slowly-from like seventh to
eighth grade, into ninth grade-kind of-sort of like, come out of my shell and start to feel
myself more and-my ninth grade English teacher and-there's an acting elective; those two
teachers really helped me. Han environment where I felt comfortable to bust out and-you
know-try on myself and be confident. So I kind of went from like-and like still really had a
small core of friends and kind of-like every year, got more confident in myself and all that,
whatever. And by like senior year ofhighschool, like I was-I was Homecoming Royalty and all
that crap.
CE: Oh, wow!
WH: Like, other people tell me that I was cool and popular but like I wasn't-I don't
really-like, what matters is like friends and stuff, and I didn't-I wasn't in with the cool kids
really, like. I was like-oh shoot no; now I don't know how to phrase it. The phrase I had used
kind of ableist language-I was like the lowest-like the threshold from like not cool to cool.
Maybe at the end I was cool, but I like bottom, right; minimal, you know, that kind of crap. So
I'm a lifelong musician and stuff and my band ended up being well-known-kind of-by the end
of it; I think that kind of had to contribute to it. But my god, my high school experience; jeez, I
don't know. I was kind of like-you know, high school is learning how to play the game. You
know, it's like they don't teach-you skills; they don't teach you-you know-super important
stuff, how the world works or how to make a resume or any of that kind of stuff. They just kind
of teach you how to take orders (laughs), you know? So I learned how to take orders. And I
also-by the end-kind of learned that it was kind of bullshit a little bit too; thankfully, I was
aware. I also was a-I played football from third grade until like-through high school. And
Anoka High School's football program-at least while I was there; I think before and after-was
fucked up. Like really kind of-like, sadistic and emotionally manipulative to people and like
just the rigorous-how they pushed our bodies and stuff, and forcing us to weights really hard,
but not really-like they paid lip service to having good form, but it was also go-go-go (snaps)
fingers). Like, they didn't really want you to have good form, so it was kind oflike, nah. Not a
chill place. The football team-a lot of those other guys-like Jesus, those are some of the most
homohobic-like racist assholes, you know, I've encountered (laughs). So, learning how to
like- survive and adapt in that kind of environment and flying under the radar and not-you
know, rub anybody the wrong way-was kind oflike-that was one of the more valuable things
I got out of high school, as screwed up as that is. Like that was something that these children are
being put through but-yeah, taught me the skills necessary in those regards. But I don't
know-I really liked English. I liked art stuff. I was-I've played the saxophone since I was in
sizth-I guess I don't really these days, but sixth grade through high school-and Anoka has a
really good music program, so that really nice, right, and we were good. You know, kind of took
it for granted how nice it is to get a break in the middle of a day and just like be with a bunch of
people and make music together-you know?-in this very collaborative, group setting. That's
something that I kind of miss, you know? Yeah.
4
Oh jeez, I'm trying to think what else-what
I was a pretty- I was a pretty dorky kid.
else was high school like, you know? Yeah,
CE: (laughs).
WH: I wasn't really a rule breaker; like-with
crap, I learned how to play by the rules.
high school and the football team, and all that
CE: Yeah.
WH: And then-where the rules were kind of bull-you know, especially by the end, like my
senior year where I first started drinking, smoking, and staying out late and all that kind of
stuff-oh yeah, badass over here!
CE: (laughs).
WH: But like yeah, you know; you get used to people telling you like, "This shit's the worst
thing on the planet! You do this shit and it's just terrible for you!" and you do it, and you're okay.
You know, you're fine. It's not like God's greatest gift or anything; it's not like-I don't want to
glorify that kind of crap. But it's-it is what it is, you know? And so you're like, okay. Maybe
these people-they're full of shit about that; what else are they full of shit about, you know?
CE: A gateway drug to knowledge.
WH: Exactly (both laugh).
CE: So then, how did you come to Augsburg University? Like, what was your college process
like? Why did choose-?
WH: Yeah. It was kind of by-like in retrospect, it's really kind of like-I really just kind of like
fell into Augsburg. I've been makirig movies since I was kid and I knew I wanted to film school
since I was like a teenager-a young teen. So it was kind of a matter of like-so like I said, I
looked-I knew I wanted to go to film school, so I was looking at places. I don't know, didn't
really try-like UCLA or NYU, or those; I didn't even consider them. I didn't feel like I had the
academics to get in or kind of, like, wherewithal. It was kind of between Augsburg and DePaul,
in Chicago-and I got accepted into both. The only reason I went to Augsburg was like-they
gave me more financial aid; it would have cost me more to go to DePaul. But also-you know, I
visited DePaul and Chicago's cool-and maybe one day-but at that time, it was just-it's all so
tall and there's so many people; I was very overwhelmed and I wasn't sure-I was like, I don't
know; maybe sticking in Minnesota for college was more my tempo. So, Augsburg then was
kind of like the only place I applied to. There aren't a lot of place that have a full-four year film
program in the state; that's kind of unique. Like, the UMN doesn't have one.
CE: Yeah.
5
WH: They are film majors there, I've since then learned but people build their own major, and
they didn't advertise-like, I didn't know that was an option so I was like, okay; I can't go to the
U, because I can't do what I want to do there. So, Augsburg had-they had a film program that
used actual film, like true celluloid. So, I went down for a visit and I liked it alright and they left
me in and they gave me decent financial aid so I like, Okay; guess it's Augsburg! So I ended up
enrolling at Augsburg.
CE: Yeah. What were your expectations?
WH: Well, you know (laughs)-the whole 'big city feel in a small campus,' was something that
was kind of pushed on me and like knowing it was a very liberal space and like-knew enough.
You know, 2015-1 was just starting to become more conscious like-you know, I'm thinking
about Black Lives Matters, it's happening-and Eric Gamer, specifically, that sticks in my mind
as kind of like-I mean like, nobody deserves to get killed by the police like that; but that was
like so-that was the first one I encountered so blatantly-this person did nothing wrong
deserving of being killed for it, right-that kind of started to change my trajectory. I was
interested in-you know, cool, I would go to this place and it's like one of more friendly spots;
it's like the most diverse private school in Minnesota; like really friendly to the LGBTQIA
community and like, okay; cool! Expecting it to be this haven of open-mindedness and just
like-whatever. I was expecting-I thought the film classes-they really sold it as a hands-on,
small-port community; more collaborative than competition-based-it was kind of how things
were presented to me. So, those were kind of my expectations. You know, and there's also just
the cultural expectations at large of what college is supposed to be for people-in pop culture
and what not. It was like okay; I guess this what it will be.
CE: What are the pop culture representations?
WH: Well, you know, partying and all that kind of crap-not that I did too much of that crap.
But yeah, you know-eat ramen, that kind of-you know, that kind of 'college-student' kind of
crap. It was kind of like all I understood about it. My older sister-two years older than me, so
she was already-yeah, two years older than me, went to the U, so she-I had some idea of what
college was like; but in retrospect, could have asked her more about it before going into it on my
own.
CE: So when did you enter? 2015?
WH: Yeah, so fall of2015 was when I first came to Augsburg.
CE: And you graduated spring of2019?
WH: Yeah.
CE: Oh. So, did Augsburg fulfill these expectations you had?
6
WH: I mean·(laughs), yes and no. Certainly as a haven for liberals, but like what that means
compared to like what is promised-you know-are kind of two different things. And like
also-I mentioned Eric Gamer-like I was just becoming aware of just like-where my-you
know, I knew I was Black but fully understanding the weight of that and like what that means
and like, having not really been around alot of other Black people-or anybody that wasn't
white, really-· was kind of like-Augsburg was a time where I became racially conscious;
politically conscious, you know. And so-I mean it definitely kind of fulfilled my-I mean I was
open-minded enough to receive it, you know, what Augsburg had to offer me. I mean just in the
first couple days of like, welcome weekend or whatever, I was exposed to a lot of things that I
had never even heard about and now, they're just kind of like pretty standard (laughs) stuff. You
know, being conscious of pronouns and things-you know, I don't think too terrible hard to start
listening and being mindful of. So, that was lit; like I am glad I went to Augsburg. I'm probably
going to end up shitting on Augsburg hereCE: (laughs).
WH:-quite a bit, or things about this place-but it was a good place for me. I'm glad I came
here. I mean, who knows what would happen if anything else happened. Like, if I went to
DePaul-who I was or where I would be. But like-nah, this was a really integral part of where I
ended up these days. So like-the film program was like (sighs) was ultimately-not-leaves
a
lot-left a lot to be desired. I kind of kept waiting for like-because like, there aren't alot of film
majors at Augsburg and so-a lot of the film classes are-it's really not until you're like an
upperclassman that you're in film classes that are just film majors, and even then, that's kind of
rare. So most of the time, it was like-it'd be these business-like the first class you take,
Film-whatever-,
it was like thirty-something people or whatever, and maybe ten of us were
film majors. By far, most of the people were like, Okay; I'll take an easy credit where I can just
sit and watch movies. You know what I mean? So, it was kind of disappointing because I wanted
to just jump in and let's get rolling here! Like, I don't think chemistry majors are sitting in
classes where it's mostly art students that are in their introduction to like what their program is
going to be. I mean (snaps fingers), you kind of hit the ground running and it's not really like
how things happen at Augsburg-which is, you know, alright; forces you to get creative and
· work-learn to work with not a lot. But I wish there was more a-yeah, more of a focus on like
(laughs), getting cameras in people's hands and getting them to make stuff. You know, you can
sit in a room and read theory and make movies-you know, that's important stuff if you're going
to study film and movie making and to be-like the best thing that Augsburg's film program did
for me was just-I always loved movies; my whole family loves movies-like my mom was a
film major and I have been making movies since I was kid. So like, a lot of love there. But
like-Augsburg-my
time here; really kind of the program-it's still-really kind of hit home
the importance of being, you know, conscious of the impact of shit that you make because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whether you're consciously thinking of these things or not, the impact
is going to be what people take away from it; it's there. You know, like death to the
author-doesn't necessarily matter if you-if that's your intent and purpose going into it because
if that's what people are taking away-so I'm glad I learned that and yeah-you know, movies
are good fun. I'm not trying to make it into Hollywood or some shit; I don't have an interest in
that-that kind of making movies. I like to do it-you know, with friends; getting around, having
7
a good time. You know, the pleasure is in the process for me and like-I haven't a lot of
experience in a more professional setting, but I've had a couple. They were exciting and they
were kind of fun; but you know, it wasn't like how I like to make them. Where was I going when
I started with that thoguht? Jeez. (laughs) Film program-yeah they-my dream film program
would be you mix-because most of the time, whether it was a theory class or a production
class-really, I think it should just-like, my best semester for film was like when I was taking a
production class and a theory class. They weren't related to each other-the professor's weren't
working together-but you know, I was taking what I was learning in one class and applying it to
the other and it's like-the projects I was working on for both of them-it was the best, you
know; to be learning what's going on behind the stuff and kind of like-how to apply it and get
out and make stuff. So I think from day one, they should be getting cameras-even if it's just
like crap camcorders; it doesn't really matter if it's 4k or whatever, if it looks nice-just get
people conscious of what they're doing with moving images and just get them making stuff they
want to make. You know (snaps fingers), all the time just go, go, go.
I also (clears throat)-my degree is in film and communication studies and that's because
about a month before class started, I got an email from the director of the Honors Program,
Phillip Adamo-former director of the Honors Program-and it was just like, Hey! You know,
you're academically interesting; you kind of got maybe what we're looking for and you should
think about being in the Honors Program! And like-because like, I didn't think I was some kind
of burnout or anything, but because my GPA had been kind of tanked from those math classes I
took in high school-seeing myself as a Honor student, you know, is like wow; the highest
academic rigor. That's not how I saw myself. I knew I was smart but, you know, being smart and
being good at school (laughs) are not always the same thing; so, I kind of ignored it. You know;
whatever. And then, he sent me another email-wait, I think the deadline passed for applying.
It's like, Okay, you know, I guess it's not going to happen; no skin off my back. And then they
send me another email saying, Hey! Even though it's after what we said, it's not too late if you
want to! And I was like. Damn! They emailed me twice? Why not! and I was like, Sure, I'll do it.
And so, that began (laughs) my illustrious career in the Honors Program and really-that kind
of-big part of what radicalized me, I think-my experience in the Honors Program in my time
here at Augsburg at large.
The Honors Program, your first year, you take at least two classes-I think you can take
more if you want if you take-I don't know if they're still calling them-when I was doing it, it
was Scholar Citizen and Liberating Letters.
CE: Yes.
WH: So yeah (laughs). And so, that Honors class was the first class I ever took in college;
Monday-Wednesday-Friday, eight am.
CE: Scholar Citizen?
WH: Scholar Citizen with Larry Crockett, at the time. And Larry-he was a liberatrian and you
know (laughs). But okay, my perspective going into that class right-like I too, at the time,
didn't know-I didn't know anything about class consciousness or really what capitalism was or
any of these other things. I knew-because my dad was more conservative, I knew Democrats
8
were shit; but I also wasn't totally-you know, rocks for brains (both laugh), so I knew
Republicans were ass too so-at the time, the appeal of liberatarism-Larry and I were on a
similar wavelength, I think, in terms of what things should be. Me being eighteen and him being
middle-age, plus.
CE: Ancient.
WH: But like-at the time-like, that class was kind of a shit show. But similar to-kind of like
how I left Anoka and really opened myself up and reflect on my time there and really started to
realize how screwed up things were there-similar kind of thing in this class. I knew it was wack
(laughs), and some of the people in there were wack, but I don't know-I still do genuinely think
like in a vacuum, what Larry was trying-what I think he was trying to do-at least what he
stated what he tried to get people to do what to get people to question their beliefs and you know,
think critically about everything and think about different newspoints. And you know, that's all
good and fine and dandy. I think his really kind of main point-I don't know if it changes year to
year-but he was really about like-my time with him was about the danger of ideology and
becominging like an ideologue and stuff and stuff; it's like, you can't escape being
non-ideological. Being non-ideological is, in itself, an ideology; you can't really escape that. So
it was kind of like-Larry, himself, kind of became the example of the shortcomings of getting
too blind about one's ideology. He was only nice to me; he wasn't not so nice to others,
particularly the women of color in those classes when it came down to grade. But, for me, that
was the first-so that was the first class I took. And that semester, with all my other classes, got
4.0's in everything and I was like, Oh shit! Holy fuck! And it was because those classes were
super I think and you know, (laughs) I wasn't taking Chemistry 101 or whatever; you know, the
hard stuff where it's like a certain percentage of people will fail this class, bar and all-that
bullshit.
But so-being in the program in the spring, the second class, Liberating Letter, was
taught by Bob Graven who became my academic advisor and was kind of a gateway into-like if
I didn't take that class, I don't think I would have become a communications major. I was
thinking about-I knew I wanted to have a backup plan because I didn't know what the hell I
was doing. I knew I wanted to go into film school because I knew that I wanted-like I just liked
movies so much and have been making them so much, and at that time, I had the naive belief that
if you got a job doing what you love, it would be chill. That's not the case (laughs), but that's
what I thought. So like, I ultimately knew that if I didn't try-if I didn't go to film
school-whether I ended up making movies or not, or even being involved in any of that kind of
stuff-I'd always regret it so you know, I got to do this. So I was like-I knew I needed to have
something other than film and I knew I could pull it off because film was one of the smaller
majors on campus. I didn't end up taking any business classes (laughs), but I think I was like a
business minor for my first two semester, or at least my second-I think my first semester I was
just a film major and I think my second semester I was like, Maybe I should take some business
classes; that's an easy minor. But then I took that class with Bob-and he was in the
communications department; a communications guy-and I really like that class and his style or
whatver and so I was like, Okay; maybe communications! And so, I got into it and so, my
sophomore year was when I started actually taking classes and really enjoyed it. Communication
is a good-you know, everything is communication.
9
CE: Yes (both laugh).
WH: That's what they teach you. And it's-you know, it's something that we do all the time so I
think it's easy-like why I would take classes-that would be like taking a class on breathing;
it's kind of bullshit, right? It's pretty self evident! But it's like, that's not the case; and it's like a
discipline that mixes-kind of like, psychology and sociology; kind of flavor and so-I'm
curious about people and how they work, and stuff like that so it was a good fit for me. Yeah.
What else am I going to say-you got-that's a solid break. I saw you write something
down-you have a question?
CE: No, I mean-one thing I just want to ask you too is that you mentioned the Honors
Program. I just-hold on, let me-so I guess, can you describe one highlight and difficulty of
every year you had? Freshmen year, you briefly mentioned it was really impactful on your end,
but just like-I guess were the most memorable highlights every year and maybe ohhh [editor's
note: not so much]?
WH: Oh, good question. Jeez. I think probably-my first year of college, definitely the hardest
to think of a low-light. I had my least levels of commitment-well, no, that's pretty easy. During
welcome weekend, they had these-you know, they break you into these neighborhoods. You
know, force people into settings where they force people to get to know people; you know, team
builder-kind of pit-the-neighborhood-against-each-other kind of stuff and so, they had this
kind of obstacle course thing-these inflatable obstacle course thing in Murphy Square and my
team was down a person. So I was designated, go-through-twice person and so-we ended up
losing (both laugh). Anyways, later we-maybe it took like an hour, I don't know-it's over,
time has passed; we're like done, walking back, and I was like, Oww, my wrist is kind
of-feeling like-you know, not sprained; what am I trying to say? You know, you just like jam
it; kind oflike eesh [editor's note: noise of pain]. You know, let that heal up over a couple of
days. So I'm like, you know-okay, I'll wait this one out and like, a week goes by; a week and a
half and like, okay. It's not getting any better and it's not getting any worse; it really didn't hurt
that bad. It really just like-it really just kind of-really hurt when I rotated my wrist and there
was kind of like a clacking sound so I was like, Okay; maybe I should get it checked out by a
professional. And by the time I ended up sitting down with a doctor, I think a couple of weeks
had passed and so I go in, I tell him my symptoms, and he like presses his hand up against my
wrists and has me rotate it, and there's no clacking. And so like-he's like, Yeah. In ten seconds,
this guy had diagnosed [that] I tore the ligament in my wrist somehow-it's actually like a
common injury for golfers and I guess normallyCE: (laughs), I'm sorry, that's so funny.
WH:-(laughs) I just remember him telling me that and like, fuck golf, but he was amazed
because normally, it's pretty painful-it's like something you notice. It's something you like, oh
huh. But for the life of me, I didn't-like, there wasn't a moment I was going through the
obstacle course and I like landed-caught myself and said, Ohh rough, jeez. That's what I did it!
It was afterward I was like, Oh, I must have screwed it up there. And like, if I had gone in right
away, they could have just like put me in an arm's cast and it would have healed itself up. But
10
because I had waited too long, it was like too damaged and so, they had to take membrane from
the top of wrist-like extra membrane-and tie together a new ligament. So I was like in a
cast-from like November until like-I think I had it off before class was out, so like March or
April.
CE: Wow.
WH: So like, most of the year (laughs). Kind of a bummer. I supposed that was probably the
lowlight-maybe living in Urness. Urness sucks. Augsburg's Residence Life Department-what
they force students to do with the meal plan crap is just like ridiculously expensive and just kind
of like-sus [editor's note: suspect]. The buildings are not great; probably moldy and all that
kind of crap (laughs).
CE: Yeah
WH: So that wasn't good.
CE: Urness is the freshmen dorm, right?
WH: Yes. Urness is the freshmen dorm-first year dorm. Except there was so many first years
for me, that there was spillover. So some of the first-years lived in Mort but I was unlucky and I
was up in Urness. And I guess a highlight-hmm. Honestly, maybe it would be my time in the
program because there was really-those classes anyways were really just-heady, thought-kind
of question stuff, so that was really kind of up my alley. Philosophy-stuff. So you know,
yeah-real easy to show up and be active when it's a topic you care about. Sophomore year, the
lowlights get easier.
CE: (laughs) Oh.
WH: It's 2016, so like the whole presidential election, you know. That was like another
radicalizing force in my life-everything going around with that. I like-like election night, I
found out my mom had just left an abusive-what I found out that night was an abusive
relationship. Like, sneak out of the house and shit. So I went up to one of the local smoke spots
where stoners go and like-when I left, Hillary was up big and then, we like got there and sat
and my mom called me. And I find all this out, have a conversation, we walk back, and I walk
back and by that time-maybe an hour had passed?-and like, Trump was for sure going to win
at this point and it was like Aww, fuck. So like, things change (laughs), things change. That was
kind of a big awakening, kind of, for me. And also, that was part of my lowest points as a film
major. I was just kind of feeling-like those classes that I took, I wasn't too interested in; I was
just kind of feeling like-not quite out of place; out of place isn't quite right, but kind of just
like-I don't want to like; I don't know. You just need a camera and ideas and you go out and
make a movie; that's all you need. But like, Augsburg's film equipment and all that stuff isn't the
most robust; you know, it's pretty, kind of, scrappy, which is kind of cool; I like that vibe. But so,
yeah-it was like scrappy stuff and like-a couple of-I liked some of the film professors but
some of the other ones I was just like-they weren't great. It's one thing to know what you're
11
doing, and it's another thing to teach what you do; and so, I just like jeez. What am I doing?
These classes aren't that great; I don't really feel like I'm doing that great in them. And that was
the only year-that was the year I got a B? Yeah, that was like the only semester I got anything
lower than a 4.0 was that year. Which is like-I don't know, I had somehow-I just kind of like
felt-because going into college, especially as a film major, GPA doesn't fucking matter. And it
still doesn't out of college; nobody asks me about my GPA, it's not getting me anything. Grad
school is maybe a different story but like, I didn't really care; you know, I'm just going to give it
my best and the GPA I get is the GPA I get. And then that first semester I got that 4.0 and then,
the second semester I got a 4.0 and it's like, let's see how long I can keep this going. So by the
end of my time, I really cared only because it was like, Geez. I made it this far; is it going to be
this class that finally does it? That would be kind of like-you know, all the prior struggle would
then be kind of like-pointless or whatever. I think what else-what else is sophomore year?
That was kind of a rough year.
Oh fuck. I mean jeez, I lived in a floorhouse that year too with a bunch of other people in
the Honors Program, and that was just like not a good living arrangement. A floorhouse is
fourteen people sharing a-almost like their own wing of a dorm. You have one shared living
space; two big bathrooms with multiple stalls-think like public-bathrooms looking kind of
bathrooms-and then like a big old kitchen with two large refrigerators and like, a giant stove
and a whole bunch of cabinet space and stuff. If it's the birds-eye view of the floorplan, the
bathrooms are in the center of the donut and the kitchen is in the lower-right and the living,
communal space is right above the kitchen and the rest of it-kind of c-shaped-was where the
rooms are. And there were only two single rooms; everybody else had to have a roommate and
so like-just living with that many people and just sharing all of that-because it was a shared
communal space and I had a roommate in my room as well-I just didn't have-it was very rare
you had any kind of actual alone time in a space like that. And that is something I value and
really need, so that just kind of takes its toll after awhile.
Also, I don't want to come at people too much, but I was the only Black-no, that's
not-Briana was also in there, jeez! But she was smart; she was never there. She lived there; she
slept there; but other than that, she was never in there and that was the best thing anybody could
have done. And Sam-jeez. But he also-my RA [editor's note: Resident Advisor]-he was
never there either (laughs). He was-that was good. He was a good RA. Anyways (phone
ringing in background), everybody else was white. White (emphasis on h); you know, that kind.
So you know-it was that point in my life where-especially after the election-I like
to--discuss, debate-I like to talk about things; I don't shy away from that. Kind of like, coming
into differences of opinions; conflicts on things with like people that like-you know, we're all
liberal; we're all Augsburg liberal, kind of "bubble" was the buzzword of that time-and that's
when I started to see where the cracks in that are and it's like-it's not enough to be-like being
liberal isn't really all that great of a thing to be. Right, it's the whole, vague progressivism calls
for diversity and inclusion that don't have any analysis for power dynamics or hierarchy or
structures. And like, the other people that lived there were liberal so like-I like-yeah, living
with them and bouncing ideas off of them and stuff also contributed-I was like okay. So I am
not like-maybe I'm not a liberal, right. Because going into Augsburg, I was like, Okay, maybe I
can be liberal. Like after my first year I was like, Okay, chill. After that year, I was like, Okay. I
am definitely not a conservative but I am like, you know; there's something beyond all of this. I
12
had also read-maybe
States.
a highlight of that year, truthfully-is
a Peoples History of the United
CE: By Howard Zinn?
WH: It was-yeah, by Howard Zinn. After I graduated from high school, my mom-in my grad
party, my mom gave it to me. She was like, "Now that you've got your public education, get
educated," you know. And she never read it-I don't know how it got on her radar, but
yeah-one of the best gifts she gave me because that really kind of exposed-I like finished
reading it around the time the election happened too. It was like a lot of things folded into each
other and happened in rapid succession there where like-I kind of just started to broaden my
scope even further.
Junior year (exhales). Junior year was rough. Only surpassed by senior year by how hard
it was.
CE: Yeah.
WH: I like-had personal stuff going on in my life that sent me down a deep, deep depression
and so-right, struggling through that and being a student-that shit ain't easy (laughs). And I
also-so like, we entered that floorhouse; we all were friends-several people were dating each
other-
CE: Oh, no!
WH: Big, big yike. And-by the end of that-I don't think anybody-nobody was still together
and a lot of friendships-we definitely weren't all collectively still friends; people still had
friends but things kind of splintered. My junior year had all this-I kind of lost the friends I
gained as a first year in college and had all this other crap going on, so that was kind of rought.
I'm trying to think of a highlight-yeah, that's easy! So like junior year, that's when I was
having that semester when I was taking both those film classes and so-I was feeling
academically, at the time. I had some of my best film classes and that's when I like first-the
more professional set was that spring; like really cool.
And then I worked for Residence Life that year. Let's talk about that-if we're talking
about the history of Augsburg, we got to talk about what that perspective is like; get that in the
book. That's a crap institution to work for and they treat their workers like ass and that was when
like-I really-yeah, you know, it's funny. People think-the pop culture of what college is like
is that it's full of these hippie Marxist professors that tum people into commies and like really
(laughs), I did end up that way but it was not because I had-well I had one-but for the most
part, I did not have hippie, communist professors. It was because there were liberals who still
believe in capitalism, and capital relations, and work relations, and power dynamics and kind of
slow, incrementalism, white moderate crap, but want put that ribbon of diversity on there; you
know. So Residence Life was like that; Residence Life was a weird job. It was like-most people
weren't white, which was really nice actually; that's the only job I ever had that was like that. So
that was really chill (laughs). The only good thing about it probably. But like, they pay
you-they pay you half in a stipend/discount on your housing and then half in bi-weekly
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paychecks. The housing stipend only is enough-unlike pretty much every other RA I've talked
to from higher academic places, like the University of Minnesota-other friends I've had who
were RA's and stuff-they all had free room and board. You know, a pretty standard, kind of
like, Why the hell else would you be an RA-kind of thing? That's the deal there. Not at Augsburg
(laughs). You get free room and board if you are in RA in a first year dorm-in Urness; but you
still have to pay for a meal plan, especially because Urness doesn't have any kind of
cooking-thing. There's a 'kitchen' on the first floor that's like a really, kind of, rinky-dink-it
would really be a struggle to like to feed oneself like fully using the Urness kitchen.
So, I worked in Mort-the second, kind-of cheapest place to be an RA, only a couple
thousand more than Urness. So like, even then, the amount of money that was given to me for
my housing was equal to the amount that I had to pay for housing on top of that-so it kind of
cancelled itself out-no wait! It's even worse than that! The amount of money I got in stipend
for housing, plus the paychecks-combined
with how much I had to pay to live there for the rest
of the year--cancelled each other year. So I essentially worked for free but also, lived for free. It
was kind of the trade there. But like, I also had to still have a meal plan even though there are
kitchens in Mort; they still force you to buy into that kind of crap and like-it's just kind of one
of those-really when I started to realize the absurdity and like, What are people even doing?
Kind of organizational structure-like how that kind of business practice works-as an RA, we
were pretty-you know, the boots-on-the-ground-with
the residence. You know, I lived with
these people. My personal philosophy was that like-Residence Life, they wanted you to be like
everybody's best friend and like hitting people up all the time-and especially in Mort, when it
tended to be upperclassmen-that's
not really what people wanted. People wanted to be left
alone; do their own thing and study or whatever. It was kind oflike, I'm here if you need me but
like-they didn't want a babysitter. I didn't want to babysit grownass people older than me so
(laughs). So they had that; they had weekly, nightly programming of activities and things that
like-none of the residents-just a small handful of residents go to; but by-and-large, nobody
was interested in or go to. We're openly mocked and like-we all thought it was kind of crap; all
the other RA's, and even some of the other professional staff, you know. If you got them to be
more comfortable enough with you, they would admit it was kind of bullshit; but because that
was the mandate from the top-down, we had to keep doing this shit, and just like wasting money
and all of our time on crap that like-nobody wanted!
And so much of it was like-when I started at Augsburg, they started this thing that was
like "Green by 2019." By the time, it was supposed to be a carbon-neutral campus and I
think-maybe I'm remembering it wrong-but I think a part of that was like, trying to-I don't
know if they were trying to be paper free, but really ditch that and-ahh. The amount of paper I
wasted as an RA-the flyers we had to print over and over again for things these things that
happened every week but it was like a new topic or a different date, we would have to print out
the same thing over and over again with just like different words typed on it and just like-all
just a waste.
And I did the math and-not including the block stipend-like the discount-the amount
you get paid week-to-week-how
much they pay you versus how many hours they expect you to
work-I think I was making like-it was less than five bucks an hour. It was nuts; it just was like
total crap. And this was when Minneapolis-that year as an RA was when the fifteen dollar
minimum wage was passed here and so like-they didn't just jump from seven-whatever to
fifteen, but like-people are starting to raise it. So it was just really crap and exploitative and
14
they just pray on these young people that don't know better, you know? Don't know-want to
trust (laughs) these people-that buy into the culture of Augsburg and all that. But yeah; so that
really kind of-by the time I was done as an RA, I was just like really, really over it and was
already-like I wasn't a socialist yet but I was starting to get there.Big part because of Residence
Life. And even like liberals were like-Alright-that's
when I remember about starting to hear
jokes about late capitalism. It was a pretty-that's the thing; everybody was aware about how
crappy it was, so people would like-our bosses included would make jokes about, "You know,
that's capitalism!" but it's kind of like-we all know we can make these changes; we have ideas
for how it could be better; and we to pitch it, you know? We really tried to convince people that
we shouldn't be doing this nightly programming and they just wouldn't hear us out-wouldn't
listen to us. Kind of crap. And they know-I think it's honestly part of their business model. It
really is a shit job and it's really burnt out because you ended up working more hours
than-you're supposed to really. I really didn't do that, because-so much of it was kind of
bullshit.
Prior to going into this, I was kind of in my head like, What am I going to say about my
time at Augsburg and what college is and big takeaways and it's kind of like-one of the big
takeaways is [editor's note: college] is a time when you figure out what needs to get done and
what shit you can let go, you know? What can slide. Like priorities. What matters (laughs). So, I
would prioritze the stuff that mattered so I could still have a work-life balance, which was
already wack because I lived where I worked. That's just RA-I was always on the job as soon
as I stepped out of my room. And I had roommates-like I was technically always working.
Yeah, it was kind of just like-by the end, you could really just see through the crap and knew
(laughs) it would be better if the people actually doing the work-it was the people deciding how
the work was done.
CE: Now, senior year!
WH: Senior year. Senior year was a real rough one for several reasons. One of the bigger ones
being it was-in October-I think it was before the stuff went down in the Honors Program, or
around the same time-that the UN [editor's note: United Nation's] Climate Report came out
and said, Hey, we got a decade to figure this shit out or otherwise, bye-bye human species! And
that-I am still grappling with that. You know, climate grief or whatever they call it; yeah, that
shit is rough. Real existentialist threat there (laughs). So, that had me spiraling and then
yeah-the Honors Program. I wasn't just in the program; sophomore through senior years I was
in a kind of student-advocate role. They called us the House Presidents and split us off into four
houses-kind of like Harry Potter but like, not really. They didn't really mean anything; my first
year they kind of did because they had monthly meetings which were mandatory-you had to
show up so you actually planned stuff and did things. But after that year, enough people
complained so they were like, Okay, people are sick of this; these meetings won't be mandatory
anymore. So participation dropped and I am kind of too blame, because I was technically in
charge of that shit for three years and never really did-you know, I could have done a lot more
and help foster a community and get shit going. I just didn't, really. But so, I was one of the
co-presidents of Griffin House, which is the events house and I was also on the-so my first year
in the program was the director's first year as director and my sophomore year-after some
complaints about Larry Crockett-I think mostly Crockett, but I think also some other-yeah,
15
definitely some other professors in the program being kind of racist or sexist or x,y,z-they got
this diversity committee going and so I was like, shit; alright, I'll join. So that's why I was also
on the diversity committee (phone ringing in background) and so my sophomore year was mostly
talking to people about what they wanted. Junior year was mostly about coming up with plans
and a proposal for what the program could do to be better.
And then senior year, things kind of imploded (laughs) because-so, there were
complaints about Larry Crockett and the diversity thing was created and that first class that he
thought-enough people were like, This is a fucking problem that he got taken out of the class;
so he wasn't teaching it anymore after my sophomore year-my first year as a House President.
Then Phil taught it-the reason Crockett taught that class in the first place was because it was his
pride because Crockett was a former director, so it was one of his projects. It made sense to a
have a new director teaching this class and say, Yay! It's not Crockett-you know, we're in good
hands! Well, it turns out we weren't in good hands (laughs). Phil Adamo likes to play devil's
advocate and he's like a-racist, sexist, ableistjerk. Made fun of people with disabilities; really
insensitive. I never had a class with him, so I'm not-my first hand experience with Phil is a
limited in the scope outside of-in terms of race and personal decorum, so those are other
people's stories to tell. But my experience with him was like-he didn't really end up doing
anything while he was director. So like, the program is a beast and it's very illusive and no one
really knew how it worked, except for some of the student staff that worked for the
program-the Honor's Desk-so he really relied on them to figure it out. And it made sense for
the first couple years but then he never really ended up taking the reigns over-so that was kind
of a problem. He, under the guise of 'democratic'-you
know, "I'll let the people speak and be in
charge of the good!"-and I'm glad he did, it helped contribute to why he's not in charge of the
program anymore, you know (laughs )-he kind of set up his own demise. So with the diversity
committee, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to get on this! He was like, Oh; you students
who don't really know what the hell you're doing-you figure it out and tell me what I got to do
and I'll do it! So, things never really got done and people shuffled in and out-and then when
things got done, because he was top dog, he got to take credit for the big strides the program is
taking when he's not doing any of the work.
But in that class Crockett was taken out of, Phil-the year before, my junior year-so
part of it was criticized for being too white, too male in his curriculum. And so, Phil comes in
with a very liberal, very surface-level identity of, Okay! We're going to come in and diversify it
up and all this yadda, yadda crap. And so, he's teaching James Baldwin-which is good right,
because people ought to be reading Baldwin-but so, this is James Baldwin we're talking about
here so the n-word in his book. Was it the The Fire Next Time Both Years?
CE: Yes.
WH: Okay (laughs). Both years, he says the n-word. Like, he says the slur-not just the-like
the actual slur. And (laughs) students in my junior year-I wasn't fully in the loop but people
were like, Hey, that's not fucking cool, and talked to him about it and he's like, Hey okay. Kind
of the understanding of lesson learned; won't do that again. Kind of weird that like this
near-retirement person has to learn this lesson now, but okay; not going to happen again and
that's what matters. But like-he didn't learn shit! So he comes along the very next year and
same kind of problems and he's trying to pull this devil's advocate bullshit, "Isn't it giving to the
16
word to be afraid to say it?" and that kind of crap. Academic freedom was what he tried to hide
behind. But really, it was about what kind of classroom environment are you going to have, and
is it really safe for the diverse range of students that Augsburg calls its bread and butter? You
know, they put it all in the marketing materials that this is a good place to be but, (laughs)
really-in my time here, it kind of became clear they just care about getting asses in seats;
numbers in books; and faces on marketing materials. When it comes to the actual analysis of
power dynamics and relations and how these actual-how racism actually works and is upheld
and things like that, the liberal critique is not enough to actually take these things down. It's too
focused on individualistic and personal responsibility and that kind of crap (laughs).
So, that happened on a Tuesday and I found out-did I find out the next day then?
Wednesday? Maybe I found out Tuesday because I was a student leader-as a House President,
students start coming to the other presidents and we start to get filled in the loop that-this is
super wack, I don't want to come to class; what the fuck-so we felt like we had to do
something. Felt isn't even the right word; we had to do something. So, Wednesday we were like,
Okay. We know something happened-we know it happened so we're going to do something
about it. So, we sent an email to everybody in the program and Thursday a couple of us-not me,
but a couple of people-went to his classroom to monitor the situation and make sure people
were okay and talk to them. And he really exploded and like-got really defensive and
aggressive and hostile. And like Phil-he's a really good-he's a really good lecturer. He's a
very good orator; very good with words. He's a good speaker; he's got that charisma on a
face-value, so he uses that in personal relationships so like-he can kind of gaslight you,
manipulate you, and tum situations on their head-shot I don't want to bounce the table-so it's
very hard then, in retrospect, to say, "Oh, he did this," because it's so subtle and so whatever
that-having documentation or video evidence or audio is really kind of the only way-you have
to be there and hear it out to really get what was going on. So he got recorded and stuff and he
freaked out.
That Friday then-because that happened on a Thursday-, the class was suspended.
Campus administration finds out me, and the other House Presidents, and people that had
stepped in-people that were in the class-met with a couple of-I remember the Dean of
Students; Chief Diversity Officer; and like-who other?
CE: Vice PresidentWH: Yeah, the Vice President of Student Affairs. Not like the top-top dogs, but right, top people.
You know, we felt the meeting went well; they were very distraught-visibility distraught-by
what happened, and they were sympathetic and very much on our sides. We agreed on next
steps-like, he wasn't going to teaching the class anymore but we weren't going to cancel the
class. We were going to find a professor for the class that students could all rally behind-who
they enjoyed, who could then take over the rest of it and stuff. One of the other complaints he
had-they didn't get to it yet, but one of the texts that was down the road for the class was really
Islamophobic. He'd been confronted about it earlier and refused to take it off the curriculum, so
we got them to be like, We shouldn't be teaching that book and stuff.
So, the weekend happens and like, we knew a,llthis stuff-these people we'd have this
conversation with. But like-there's a hundred people in the program and like-basically, a
hundred people didn't know what the fuck was going on because they weren't in there and there
17
was no communication with them. So, we felt like we had to-like, people were owed an update,
especially the people in class were owed an update. You know, should they even show up to class
that next week? So, we sent out another communication that was very tame and mild that was
just-you know-things that we agreed upon with that adminstration in that meeting. And they
came at us like we were making shit it. It was very much like-they told us-they legit told us
that they were not there doing damage control, but that's exactly what they were doing and that's
what they continued to do; so, we had to keep pushing for transparency and action to hold them
to their word. And, to do something about this and Phil.
He started freaking out right away being like, Academic Freedom! You can't fire me
because of (noises), but it's like-fucking, slow your roll here! You know, we want some real
justice here in this situation, which doesn't necessarily ostracizing someone. You know, best case
scenario would have been, Hey, learn and don't be a dick (laughs). But, that didn't happen. We
made an effort to get restorative justice practices used and circle work, but the campus-kind
of-co-opted that and took the teeth out of it and did it in performative ways. So, that was all a
very disheartening-he ended up removed from being the director of the program, but he kept
his job and then quietly retired. Maybe he was forced down because-the Minnesota's version of
the ACLU, they have some other acronym [editor's note: AAUP]-their guideline's are that like:
You can say that racial slur-the n-word-as long as it's-as you're saying the word; calling
someone the word; they see that different. Calling someone outright isn't okay, but speaking it is
okay somehow (laughs). They were like-Augsburg can't just fire him just for that because
they'd get their ass sued-so I've said other things-so like, other people kind of knew their
piece of the pie, but once we started to combine forces and really talk about what was going on
in the program; what was going on with Phil; it became very clear there was a long pattern of
manipulative-kind of abusive behavior that was way beyond the scope of saying then-word
class. As fucked up as that is, they could have nailed him on a whole lot of things: he was
threatening to take away people's scholarship-something he had no authority to do, anyway;
even if that could be justified, he wasn't in that sort of power position to do that-so like, a
whole lot of crap where like-I, anyway, think that if I was employer or something, I wouldn't
want that kind of behavior-that's not the kind of person you want in your workplace. I can't
understand why they tried to shield him.
And so, this all kind of unfolded over the next couple months. That happened in
October-November maybe?
CE: October.
WH: It was like the spring-it was second semester, January or February when I found out that
we was going to keep his job, finally. They stretched it way out and like-you know, they know
what they're doing. They know that we're students with our classes and like, we're going to
graduate in a couple of years so they just have to drag their feet. Eventually, anybody that
remembers what happens is gone-that's the thought process anyway, I think. And so, that was
just a very disheartening--disillusionment for me, where all these people-it wasn't like I was
like, Phil Adamo, my hero! Or anything, but was somebody I considered a colleague and I had
worked with and had a-you know, close isn't quite right, but a working-close relationship. I'd
seen him twice a week for three years (laughs), so that' a a lot of time to think you know
somebody and all that. And Augsburg-so like Phil and just, how the campus at large took
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it-some of the other Honors professors and folks went on his side. So, when the Film professors
and some of the other professors I liked, I was really disappointed in their-take, you know; and
you'd feel like a jackass (laughs), you know, for having thought that-you know-I don't know;
that reaction to that event means they see me differently than I thought they did. You know, that
sucks (laughs) to figure that out.
So yeah, that also sent me-that, and that climate change thing really sent me spiraling.
And then, the combined burnout of being in my senior year, and taking a lot of classes, and
trying to wrap it all out with the stress of getting it done and finishing all that-really burned me
out. I'm still recovering, seriously. I'm just kind of now, I think, recuperating from the
burnout-the toll of the culmination of the four years of college plus that crap on top of it and
what it takes. So, that's maybe a lowlight.But also in that, you met some really great people. Not
met; I knew them-you know, we formed a much deeper bond and connection there, and that
was like-it sucks that all that shit had to go down for that to happen, but I'm glad those
relationships formed.
Oh jeez, I suppose-in between my junior and senior year was really when I started
to-that's when I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X and I started to like actually read
socialist literature. I found my way to being anti-capitalist via being anti-racist, you know? Your
race analysis critique isn't complete if you're not taking in class and economics into the fold.
Like that's what-once you get out of the American public education system, that's what like
MLK, and Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers, and all these other Civil Rights folks were
talking about the whole time-and so, all of that kind of culminated. That year-kind of-sent
me pretty anti-yeah, I mean the reason Phil and this school were able to do that stuff because of
the power hierarchies there. Not that if there weren't any power hierarchies, people wouldn't still
be dicks, but it's like-people are dicks and then they're put into positions where they wield
absolute power over people and that's where shit get wacks, you know? (laughs)
CE: That was alot.
WH: That was alot, yeah (laughs).
CE: What would you say were the most impactful things that occured to you? I know the Honors
thing butWH: Yeah. The Honors thing but also-I didn't talk about it but I did URGO; undergraduate
research the summer between my sophomore and junior year and that was really impactful for
alot ofreasons. That kind of taught me a lot oflessons. I learned much more about life than what
I was researching-it was kind of creative project with me and two other film major friends. In
retrospect, I don't know how that-if I was in URGO's position and they came to me with that
project, I would have turned it down, you know? Like I'm glad they let us do it and it was
important to be learned, but it was kind of crap. It wasn't great. Since then, I think URGO's since
changed their application process; but, they were open to creative projects, but there had been
initially been so much more STEM-focused, it was kind of hard to fit into their-required boxes
of what you needed to have, and do, and be a creative project. So, we ended up with this kind of
Frankenstein-project that was not really legitimately-like we tried to do research and tried to be
creative, so we half-assed both. If we would have done or the other, it would have been solid but
19
we tried to do to much. We felt like we needed to justify them giving us that much money to
make a movie or something, so we felt like we needed to have some
academic-research-rigorous kind of thing.
So we did it that summer and like-you know, I think my experience was different than
my two partners on it; so much of what I did was bullshit. Like, you're supposed to work
forty-hours a week, and there's no way I was pulling anywhere close to that much time (laughs)
at all working on the stuff I had to do. But I was still doing what I needed to do at the same time,
so like-that was really kind of-that was my first time I supposed to do the forty-hour work
week and I learned that's crap. I don't know-that wasn't my tempo anyways; and so I learned
that, and how to do that kind of stuff. But really, that summer, we-just me and my professor,
who advised the project, presented our findings at this conference in New Mexico.
CE: What year was this?
WH: That would have been 20-2018, in between junior and senior year. Yeah.
CE: When you presented it?
WH: Yeah, when I presented it. And that was kind of like-I'm still-at that point, I was more
considering-I was starting to wrap up my college career and I still didn't really know what I
wanted to do, you know? So I was kind of being like, hmm, you know? Is teaching or being a
professor something I want to do? It's still kind of rattling around in the back of my brain, but I
was lot more like, "Aww jeez, maybe that's it!" for me to do. So, that experience-this academic
thing and meeting a bunch of people that like do what I thought I might want to do-was really
nice and cool to learn. And it was kind of like-I knew what I had done was kind of bullshit and
the project was bullshit-and it was a project that I loved very dear, but it was kind of bull-but
like going to this thing-and these were like grown ass people; professors; people who are
supposed to be teaching people like me-and like, somehow, my bullshit project ended up
being-and there's alot of stuff going on there, so I couldn't see it all; so who know, perhaps
maybe I saw all the bad research and all the bad presentations-but like, yeah!
I was blown away my project was hanging there, right alongside projects by people who
were double my age; people who had been doing this longer than I had been alive, you know?
And they had film screenings there-films made by professors that were like some of the worst
movies I had every seen! It was kind of like, Okay, jeez-opposite of-everybody else got
knocked down a peg in my mind. Like, movies are hard and we're all just kind of scrambling
good stuff and like-prior to that, I felt very much like I had no grasp in terms of where I stacked
up to anybody-like if I actually had any type of skill; any kind of merit to the stuff I was
making-so that conference was really nice because it gave me alot of confidence. I wasn't like,
"Wow!"-my project was still bullshit-but all of this was kind of bull and everybody was
scrambling around. So yeah, learning that lesson that nobody's really better or worse than
anybody else was kind of a precursor then to my senior year, where I really just-kind of lost
faith in everything and being like, it's all kind of-crap, a little bit.
So yeah, I think that was really one of the main, impactful things. I'm trying to think
what else-it's all kind of impactful. My junior year, I made a movie for one of my classes than
ended up in the Minneapolis Film Festival this fall.
20
CE: Oh yeah!
WH: Yeah! So that was really cool and that was just really gratifying thing to watch, you
know-something I had made up on something that's like a movie-theater size screen. Because
like my junior year, I had made it into a couple of other film festivals-there's this film festival
called, The Mespies, here in Minneapolis that plays-well, it's actually in Columbia Heights.
They play in a movie theater in Columbia Heights and I got in and they're going to play my
movies! But they screwed up-something got messed up and screwed up and they couldn't play
my files; so even though I got into the festival-and I have it on my resume that my movies were
accepted and screened-they didn't actually show my movies. So, that was really-kind
of-disheartening moment. Like, I was already down in the dumps and stuff, and-I invited
people out there to see it and I didn't have a lot of people to invite in the first place-which I was
sad about-and then the four of the people that showed up, they couldn't even watch. My stuff
couldn't even show. So the next year, to be in a much more like legitimate-not legitimate,
because The Mespies are cool and they're all legitimate; people make an art-but like, yes,
bigger scale-type of thing and actually get to see it; that was really cool. Like if I never make a
movie again, I've got that experience.
CE: Yeah! That's actually super dope! Congrats, that's awesome!
WH: Thank you.
CE: Yeah, I don't want to talk more about the Honors Program. Want to mention anything else? I
guess, what would you say were the results of it?
WH: The results of what? Of Augsburg?
CE: Oh, the Honors Program.
WH: The Honors Program?
CE: Like afterwards, because you intensely involved in your senior year.
WH: So I mean, I was kind of intensely involved and part of that, then, was like-Augsburg
loves its committees, so there was a committee to investigate the program and figure out what
needed to be done. I was kind of of the opinion that we should nuke the whole thing (both
laugh); like, let it go. Or just like, have it so reimagined that to even call it the Honors Program
wouldn't quite be right. Things ended up being slow and taking a lot longer than we had initially
thought we would or talked about being like; once again, I think that's kind of part of that thing
that university administrations know-they can just drag their feet and the passion will die down
because people just lose faith or move on or graduate, whatever. This committee that I was on
that tried to investigate the program was really taking baby steps and so like-I was graduating,
so I wasn't keep doing it-so I was like, Hey, you know, like make sure-like I didn't
really-part of the reason I became president in the first place and why I stuck around and got
involved was because the program is really white. I was one--once again, I was one of the only
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Black people in the program. I think the only Black man in my year in the program and so I was
kind of like-my perspective is one that could come in handy in these situations (laughs), you
know? And so, didn't quite have faith that they would keep fighting without me and I've heard
this year from people at this school, it sounds like they're not kind of quite-I'm not involved
anymore so perhaps what they've uncovered led them in a different direct than we were thinking,
but they're not doing what we talked about when we were still involved.
But like, the good that has come out of it is that people-we really started to understand
how power works at this institution and how seeded these problems are; it isn't just an asshole
professor here or there-it really is the whole structure of how things are run and who's in
charge and so. I think maybe not getting what would have been best situation with Phil Adamo
broadened our scope of like, Okay; we can't fix this, but how can we make it so that kind of shit
doesn't happen anymore? So, there's efforts right now too, to try to get more wide-systemic
change at the campus that I've been involved in, but other people are really starting to take up
the mantle more-since I am an alumni, I am slowly starting to move on.
So, that's a good one. And yeah, I supposed my takeaway-I was already skeptical of
things, but-now I am very skeptical of all institutions, and I think that is a healthy thing, you
know? I think that's a good-I think it's good to-like showing up at Augsburg, I was saying yes
to everything-that's also how I entered the program, because I was asked, you know? And I
became a president and I think somebody like-I think I might have been nominated, but kind of
fell into a lot of the things I ended up doing. Kind of with the, "Oh yeah, come on! This all
seems good," you know? Having good faith in everything. Like I want to trust people and
believe people are good-and if you're not going to have love for people, what are you doing
around here?-but now, I am a lot more-I will be asking questions about why are we doing
things the way we're doing? Residence Life kind of taught me that; like why-you know,
because people want to be kind of marching along with the ways things are done; even when we
all know the ways the things are being done aren't good (laughs), you know? Not only are they
not great, they're not necessary.
CE: Well, to put in on record, we got a lot of things dones. MSS [editor's note: Multicultural
Student Services] are fully staffed now, full time; we also had Joanne Reecke's position to
full-time-Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer; dismantled the Honors Program-which was a
good thing, for the most part; and I would say we also broke the glass ceiling. We made it visible
that Augsburg was not a liberal utopia.
WH: Yeah, for sure; the atmosphere on campus really change and like-people were-people
knew, but a lot of people-the people that were not really helping the people that needed the
help, they thought Augsburg really was what it was selling and so-having that big, public
rupture and having students stand up for themselves kind of forced them to grapple with that.
CE: Just want to put it on record, that was because of student efforts, not because of Augsburg's
administration's efforts.
WH: Yes, exactly.
CE: Students pushed for that.
22
WH: Yes! And I was like-ten ofus really got that going. It ended up being more than
that-with other folks, I probably don't even know, doing stuff-but yes, that was also another
good lesson. If like ten, burn-out, clueless student can make that kind of change that rapidly,
what can we do?
CE: Facts! So, I have a few more questions. So, I have to ask to ask this question: do you think
Augsburg fulfilled their mission statement for you?
WH: Could you read the mission statement for me?
CE: Alright. "Augsburg University educates students to be infonned citizens, thoughtful
stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. The Augsburg experience is supported by an
engaged community that is committed to intentional diversity in its life and work."
WH: I think maybe, but probably not in the way that Augsburg expected (laughs). Like what
they think that means and what I think all that means, and like what all that is for me-definitely
became a lot more critical of a thinker here, you know? Hopefully informed and thoughtful. So
yeah. The part that's bullshit here is really the second part of this: the engaged community
dedicated to intentional diversity. Committed to intentional diversity; I think that's true.
Augsburg intentionally changed how they recruit students into this school; about fifteen years
ago, it was pretty much just white people. Now, it's majority non-white, right? So like-that
exposure-they fulfilled their promise, but that opened with it the faultlines of what that leaves
out and what-diversity for what, you know? What's it for, you know? Is it just to pad your
number and try to get good press? Or is it to like actually support and help marginalized people
in this world? If that's what they mean by intentional diversity, I think they're missing the mark.
But if they mean just like getting people here (laughs), they did it. I went to Augsburg.
CE: Do you think the Augsburg experience prepared you for your career?
WH: No. I mean I only have the job I have right now because of Augsburg and my academic
advisory. My academic advisor has like-not quite; I don't know if friend is quite the right word.
Colleague?-some kind of relationship with people where I work in advertising and one of the
PR-kind of the head PR dude where I work-knows Bob and he had kind of deal because he
does an internship-three internships a year: spring, fall, and summer. So like, my academic
advisor kept having really good-like kept recommending really good people, so they just made
an arrangement that he would come to him for-he would be like, "Hey! Find me my next
intern," and so he would pick people. I was lucky enough that he liked me and recommended me,
so I was an intern there and I was doing copywriting-which what I am doing now; I am doing
video stuff. But just because I was an intern there a couple months last fall, they knew who I
was; then I ran into him randomly and he was like, "Hey! Send me your resume, we might be
looking for video work," and then that's how I got my job. Now, I can-you know, I am making
my loan payments and paying my bills and-I'm still arguable paycheck-to-paycheck, but I am
not stressing because, Oh shit, maybe I should split money between groceries and-I have a bit
more of a padding. So I only have that because of my connections to Augsburg.
23
But, in terms of like-that's been another thing. I've been working at this job for months
now-yeah three months now. Oof, coming on four now, I supposed (laughs)-
CE: Wow.
WH: Yeah, wow. Time flies when you're grinding (both laugh). Just in that first month working
there, I learned so much more than I learned in my film classes at Augsburg. The film classes are
definitely a lot better on the philosophical and theoretical wherewithal when it comes to film;
when it comes to the technical stuff-and it's not even because they don't have the fancy
gear-like one of the classes I took was an editing class, and it had the same problem where-I
think the majority of the people weren't film majors and the other-there was a cluster of film
majors and even in that range, there was a wide-range of people who were in their first year; first
ever film class people-I think I took that maybe my senior year? I think I took that in the fall of
my senior year or maybe in the spring of my junior year-but I was wrapping up my time as a
film major. I only had a couple of classes left, so where I was and what I kind of needed out of
that class was kind of different from other people. So, because they were trying to make it a
class-if you didn't know shit about movies, that class was really hard because it was not-and
the professor wasn't the best, I don't think. Not a fan; I had classes with them and no.
Anyway. It wasn't a good fit for them; wasn't a good fit for me. And like, it was an
editing class in Adobe Premier, which is industry's standard of what movies are edited on these
days. And like-there's so many hard things and it's like kind of an obtuse-because it can do
alot, it's kind of a hard thing to jump into; not super user friendly out of the gate. But like even
now-shit, I could probably like roll in and get people more practical-you know, advice and
lessons for like how to use it and what to do than what I think I got in my time. That was kind of
disappointing.
I'm glad I learned that shit, and I am glad I went to Augsburg, and I am glad the film
program is how it was for a lot of reasons-me the freedom to be creative, but like, oh shit!
Jeez-it was kind of really disappointing that this program- that was dear to my heart with
professors that I like-don't have it. Didn't have it together enough to actually be
teaching-actually setting people up for success. I am really-I feel really in-over my head alot
on the job. You know, I am making it work-no doubt-but yeah, practically no thanks to
Augsburg's film classes. Really just through the time, experience, and hours spent in the
software tangentially working on projects in the film class, but not the classes about how to use
the gear. And then-kind of goes across the board, for editing and for also camera and using
lighting-I don't know how to light shit. If I was trying to work in Hollywood or really trying to
work in the industry-like I fell into advertising. So like, I'm making a living with film-with
like moving images-by accident almost. So, I'm like chill about it. But I was like going to film
school to be like Jordan Peele or Greta Gerwig-then like, Augsburg is not the film program for
you. They do not set you up for that level of work, which is kind of-which is good for me,
because that's not what I want; but, it's kind of a bummer.
CE: Do you have any advice for future Auggies?
WH: Oof, jeez. Get involved and pay attention to what the hell is going on. So many people
during my senior year-even in the Honors Program-were just like really out of the loop with
24
what was happening and at first, it was hard; the administration was being very obtuse and not
very transparent. But even when people were trying to get people to know and like understand
what was going on, people didn't know or didn't care to know; whatever.
And move off campus as soon as you possibly can. Seriously, like it's nuts. They make
you sign up-make you re-up your housing-super early in the year. They make you do it-is it
like February?
CE: Something like that, yeah.
WH: It's coming up around this time of the year, if it hasn't already happened, and like-you get
off campus and most places aren't listed a couple months before your lease. So if you're trying to
move someplace in September, you probably can't even find it-it's probably not even up for
grabs until maybe May. Like maybe when school's getting out for the year (laughs). So yeah,
they do that to make you be like, Oh jeez! Don't have any other options, have to move back on
campus. So yeah, seriously. You'll save so much money. It's ridiculous how much money I saved
moving on campus, even thought I'm paying for utilities and paying rent and paying for
transportation to and from school. And not even a meal plan-so much cheaper to not being on
campus. It really is, frankly, disgusting the way-what they do. But I think that's their bread and
butter-that's how they make money, is the room and board, so.
CE: Would you like to make any other comments about anything I didn't hit on? Talk about?
WH: Augsburg. You know-I ended up being involved, but I feel like I barely touched the
surface on everything that is going on at this school. There's a lot of dope people in their own
comers that just don't end up ever crossing paths for whatever reason: buildings are quartered off
by majors or whatever, but you know; yeah. I mean, hopefully they get it together and are
carbon-neutral by 2030. Carbon-free even better, because I hear carbon neutral and I think
carbon-credits, you know? That's not going-that's not enough. We can't offset it-we have to
stop.
So, we talked a lot about Augsburg but not about the neighborhood around it, you know,
like Cedar-Riverside. Really dope place-really glad I got to live in this part of the city for a
couple of years. Like Seward is right there-a lot fo really cool things going on in this
community and there's a healthy tradition of-you know, radical folks. Organizing, being
conscious. Art. Lots of cool stuff. So you know-Augsburg, with all of its problems, I have the
suspicion it's hardly unique to what a university is. You're probably going to find it everywhere.
So you know-I can't. I'm glad I did it. Am I proud to be an Auggie? I don't know about that!
But I am one, and that's something that's going to stick with me and even after all that and the
illusion/disillusionment, everything shattered-there's a place in my heart for Augsburg. There's
also-I kind of avoid it as much as I can; try not be here. It's complicated kind ofrelationship.
CE: Well, thank you! This is the end of the interview. So, I appreciate you again for your
willingness to be interviewed and I will send you a copy of the transcript. I loved everything you
said.
WH: Thank you.
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CE: So thank you.
WH: No, thank you.
End of Interview
26
Show less
Jesse Haroldson
03/24/2022
Public History
OHR Transcript
Oral History Report Transcript
Interviewer: Jesse Haroldson
Interviewee: Professor Marceleen Mosher
[00:00:00] Jesse: Okay. So starting at the very beginning, where were you born?
[00:00:10] Marceleen: I was born in rural Minnesota... Show more
Jesse Haroldson
03/24/2022
Public History
OHR Transcript
Oral History Report Transcript
Interviewer: Jesse Haroldson
Interviewee: Professor Marceleen Mosher
[00:00:00] Jesse: Okay. So starting at the very beginning, where were you born?
[00:00:10] Marceleen: I was born in rural Minnesota, near Rush city, Minnesota.
[00:00:18] Jesse: Okay. Who were you born to?
[00:00:20] Marceleen: Well, my mother, Anna Marie, and I, I guess my father, I forgot his
middle name, Brian. Sure.
[00:00:32] Jesse: Okay. And what did they do for a living?
[00:00:34] Marceleen: Oh. My dad didn't really have a job still.
Doesn't really have a job but he dabbles in painting, like house painting and other kinds of fix
handyman fixer upper stuff manage every once in a while, like does house projects and then has
managed it managed apartment buildings. Handyman type stuff. My mother is a welder and she's
a certified weld inspector, which there's not very many of them.
She's one of the only women. And she is one of the best welders in the state of Minnesota, she is
kind of like low-key famous in the welding community. So she's a quality manager or was a
quality manager at the end of her career, but now she is a welding instructor. So she teaches at
the Mesabi range.
The Meiji? No, no, that's not what it is. Eley Eley. And up in the iron range.
[00:01:40] Jesse: Wow. She must be really good then. Do you have any siblings?
[00:01:44] Marceleen: Yes. I have technically 11 siblings between both of my parents and their
marriages. But I grew up with two little brothers and the eldest of all of the siblings. But yeah,
two little brothers.
[00:01:58] Jesse: Okay. What was it like growing up where you did?
[00:02:01] Marceleen: In the country?
So I grew up pretty isolated. We grew up very poor in poverty and grew up down a one mile long
dirt road. And so we just like grew up playing in the woods and the dirt is awesome. We lived on
a lake, so we really into nature. So I grew up surrounded by nature in nature hiking,
backpacking, camping, just anything in and around nature that was like our whole lives.
And then I grew up in a really small community. And I was really fortunate when I lived in
Minnesota. Minnesota has a lot of really cool programs for women to be a part of the sciences
and mathematics and stuff. So I got to be a part of, I was a mathlete mathletics or something. It
was called it, or that was not what it was called.
I don't remember what it was called, like math bowl or something. And then I got to be in
advanced math classes and advanced science. And had a lot of really cool opportunities up until
junior high. And then we moved to Wisconsin where they didn't have the same kind of things.
But so like my little small town, we had future leaders of America.
It used to be future homemakers of America, but it was renamed about the time I was in it. And I
got to meet, you know, our elected representative as a part of that. So I had a pretty cool, like
growing up in a little small community, there was a lot of cool opportunities and chances to see
the world outside of Rush City Minnesota. So, yeah, that's cool. That's good. That's good.
[00:03:36] Jesse: good. Given your expertise in communication were you a good public speaker
as a kid?
[00:03:42] Marceleen: Yeah, I was in debate and in, well, we call it forensics here at Augsburg
forensics league, but I think we just called it speech when I was younger.
So I competed in the forensics teams and I did, you know, dramatic interpretation. And what else
did I do? I did do a comedy. You did, like, I did a comedy routine with somebody else, and I did
debate, which, you know, debating issues did that seventh and eighth grade. And then Wisconsin
didn't have those things.
So when we moved over to Wisconsin, they didn't have that. But yeah, so I've been interested in
public speaking for a long time. And I even when I had, it's a long story, but I was coerced into
being in a beauty pageant because my, like a close friend of the family was running it and they
didn't have enough people participating.
And so I was kind of always standing up against like norms and expectations. And so I was like,
I do not want to be in it. And they convinced me to be in it. But I wore boxer shorts and a t-shirt
instead of a dress and like set up, like I just did everything opposite.
I got miss congeniality, but I'm pretty sure that's because there was only four of us and there was
for a second, third, and then miss congeniality. So and then I did my talent was a speech I did a
month. Comedy monologue. So yeah. I love public speaking.
[00:05:15] Jesse: Sounds like it in a different dimension of communication, do you think that
you were even at a young age gifted at conveying your emotions, being able to you know, on a
deeper level of communication, do you feel like you were inclined in that area?
[00:05:29] Marceleen: That's a good question. I don't think so. No, I, I grew up, you know, I, I
was really poor as you know, which when we were kids, we didn't know it was a thing. It didn't,
we didn't know it mattered. We just didn't leave our property. Right? We did adventure camp. We
did things like that. But when I got into school, I realized I was poor because people made fun of
me for the way I dressed.
Right. So I was really, really quiet. I didn't really talk to anybody. The only people I talked to
were like my teachers who were really supportive and it wasn't until the fifth grade, when I was
sick of being teased that I really developed, like kind of this like class clown kind of persona I'd
make fun of myself before others could make fun of me kind of a thing.
And that's when my communication skills kind of came to life. I realized the power that you had
in, you know, over what people in your family. You know, wherever the, you could shape the
situation you were in by how you communicated in that situation. So so I guess maybe fifth
grade is pretty young, so yeah, maybe, but I started, I was very shy and very quiet until I got sick
of being teased.
And then, yeah.
[00:06:48] Jesse: Well, some of the things you've said in there kind of lead me into my next
question. You said that you were learning things about communication and then kind of adapted
from there. Is that to say, as soon as you started to learn about how to better communicate,
become that class clown, did you develop a a real interest, you know, from that young age, in the
science of communication?
[00:07:07] Marceleen: No. So I think just, it was really just natural. I wasn't thinking through
these things. Right? It was just like I realized, oh, if you make someone laugh, they stop making
fun of you. Right? Like it wasn't, I wasn't conscientiously looking at it as communication. It was
just like in the right. But when I got older, I started recognizing a pattern that I could solve
problems because I was really good at listening and really good at articulating.
I could say, oh, I hear that this is what this person is saying. And what's, I was a good facilitator.
And so when I got into I worked in the art, like I wanted to be an architect when I grew up. So I
went to college for architecture. Long story short and realized I hated drafting. And so I, I was
like, oh my gosh, I hate this.
But I got my first real drafting job and it led me to another drafting job. And I realized that what I
was good at was helping engineers communicate with architects because they don't use the same
language and the way that especially, and then eventually contractors were included. And so I
figured out it took me a couple of years, you know, I just thought, oh, I really like this job and
I'm good at it.
But when I had gone back to college, so in like 2006, I had gone back to college for teaching and
wanted to be a teacher. So while I was working at the architecture firm doing this kind of this
translation between teams and I was in, in school. And then I just really liked all the
communication classes and it just clicked that, oh, that's what, that's why I'm good at my job,
because I'm really good at communicating and the architects are terrible at it.
And so are the engineers and sort of the contractors and I can help translate basically between
these different teams. And so I, that's when I decided I want to do this for the rest of my life. And
then like through, when I shifted over into communication courses and, you know, abandoned
teaching, which obviously came back later.
Yeah, so anyhow, so then when I started to, you know, but into the concepts and the theory that
helped me to understand why communicating effectively has the results that impacted does in
life then I was like, oh, this is the best thing ever. This is what I want to do with my life. And so,
yeah, so I switched to a communication major probably about a year into my college adventures.
[00:09:39] Jesse: That paints a big picture for a lot of later questions I have. So it's good that
we're getting a, a whole general concept of your, you know, your trajectory. I am curious to
know, I felt like I had to add, if you in general, like to learning in school.
[00:09:52] Marceleen: Yes. It's my most favorite thing. It's to me, magic and learning is the most
important thing in life.
Everything else comes second to it, you know? It's like a superpower. And so, yeah. I love
learning. I'm a naturally curious intrinsically motivated learners. So
[00:10:14] Jesse: Yeah, I feel like I'm discovering that superpower, you know, during my time
here at college too, it's something I didn't appreciate before in high school.
So. I'm really glad that I pick that up, but I'm glad that you were gifted with that as a, as a
youngster. So given that answer, did you maybe not in say middle school, but maybe high
school, were you thinking about higher education then?
[00:10:34] Marceleen: No. So I grew up rural America where in, you know, I was eighties and
nineties and so I was conditioned and expect it except for, by my mom to like get married and
have kids.
So going to college, wasn't something I ever really thought about or thought that I would do until
I got older. And my mom's like, you need a trade, you need a trade, you need to trade nd so that's
why I decided to go into drafting because that was a trade and my mom is a trades person. And
so that was her pushing for you know, need to go into the trades.
And so, yeah, no, I was a terrible student in high school. I was a very good student until we
moved to Wisconsin and they didn't have the same kind of programs. They didn't have the same
kind of classroom experience where we lived. We lived just across the border and Grantsburg
Wisconsin. And so it just was, I barely, I barely made, I failed algebra. I barely came to school. I
was a real rebel, barely made it through. So I was not a good student for a few years there, but
that's okay.
[00:11:39] Jesse: That kind of I think you were hinting at it there, my next question is the quality
of your school through elementary, middle and high school.
Was it shoddy given the, the environment that you were in, the small community you were
growing up in?
[00:11:52] Marceleen: Okay, you know Rush City had a lot of really progressive as in
supportive programs. And so they, Rush City was a wonderful experience. They recognized, you
know, my, what my skills were and they gave me avenues to deepen them and pursue things that
I was interested in.
And without had I gone to school just to in Grantsburg where they didn't have the same options I
don't think I would have developed into the kind of learner that I am today. And so rush city was
an amazing. I had some really amazing teachers, amazing programs. And my mom worked in the
trades. She worked from 6:00 AM till 6:00 PM board or five days a week.
Sometimes she had to work on the weekends. So my mom was not home a lot and she valued an
education. But again, she's a single mom for most of most of my youth. And so my mom wasn't
really there to support my education. And so having a parent, I didn't really have adult support
outside of school.
So I'm really grateful for the education I got in our city, the, the Wisconsin schools or the
Grantsburg Wisconsin school, the high school was terrible. Was. Not, I mean, there was some
really amazing teachers. I had a teacher there that like transformed. I have like five teachers that
have transformed my life, but she really like, she was mean, and everybody hated her, but she,
she was magical.
Like she, she forced me to see that I could, you know, I could do it. I could do it even if it was
hard. I loved her. Anyhow, so yeah, not a great school system though.
[00:13:35] Jesse: Oh, okay. Well, I, you know, I don't even have this written down, but I feel like
the more I've talked to you, it seems like your mother has had an influence on you given you
know, you say she's independent and she's a very successful welder, wanted you to get into
trades.
I feel like she's a very strong role model, essentially. Would you say that's accurate? And if so, if
that's how you perceive it, could you elaborate on that?
[00:14:01] Marceleen: My mom is one of the coolest humans on the planet. She taught me. You
know, she pushed back on the dominant idea that women had to be married and had to have kids.
And she really pushed me to consider a life without having children and without having a family
and living on my own and doing whatever I wanted. She, and she was great at inspiring curiosity
and asking why and explaining why, you know, like when things would happen, I would be like,
oh, why did this happen to my mom would just tell me, oh, probably because of X, Y, Z, like, she
just helped me understand that everything is so interconnected and, you know, we are all
connected.
Like she just has a really beautiful way of seeing the world. It really shaped me. My mom's
awesome. I don't know what else to say other than just very grateful for my mom, unconditional
love and support, even if she wasn't around as much as maybe other parents, but yeah, she was
bad ass still is a bad ass.
[00:15:04] Jesse: Okay. It sounds like, it sounds like it. Your transition from high school into
Augsburg, what happened in between. Was there anything in-between?
[00:15:14] Marceleen: Yes, like 150 years of hilarious, traumatic, wonderful stories. So I
graduated high school in 1998. I went straight to a tech school, hated it, quit. worked until 2006.
When I started going back into college, I went to Normandale for my associates degree. And I
actually went to Augsburg for my undergrad. And so I ended up, I had a teacher at Normandale
who was like, you’re so like, you have to pursue this. You can't just get your associate's degree. I
hadn't considered getting a bachelor's degree at that time.
So it was like 2008 ish. And so she told me about the program at Normandale. They partnered
with Augsburg. So you could do classes. Augsburg used to have a weekend adult college. And so
you could just do classes across, basically they did it, I can't remember if they used quarters or
was trimesters, but it was totally different than the undergrad experience.
Like you just, you could sail through completing your degree really easily. So any who, so that's
how I got connected to Augsburg through that opportunity, because I was like, I'm not. Because I
was a full-time I, you know, had a career already. I was doing construction administration and
you know, doing all that technical communication and risk analysis and writing, and I had a real
job.
Right? And I worked 50 plus hours a week. So I I was like, I will take me five years to finish.
No, I don't want to do that. So anyhow, I ended up coming to Augsburg. I did the appointment,
we built out my entire, because this is how I roll, built out my entire like plan. And then I just
plowed through it, like at my bachelor's degree and I was in class.
So this is how this, maybe more than you want to know, but I was in class actually in that room.
Right around the corner. I was in a class with Dr. Chamberlain, Kristen Chamberlain, and she
was explaining communication theory. It was the introduction to com studies and she was
explaining this theory.
And I always forget that there is name. I always say it's Barbara, somebody it's, Kristen's like,
no, it's this other person. But anyway, I forgot, but it was talking about gendered communication
and the way that she was talking about it was, it did that magic learning thing for me, like
sparked in my chest.
And I was just like, oh my God, this is just like, explains everything in my life. And it was just
this magical moment. And then all of a sudden I was like, oh, this is what I want to do. I want to
make magical money people like I just had, I want to, I want to teach communication because to
me communication, the study of communication the application of these strategies and tactics,
how to communicate effectively the examination of hidden values and meaning in messages like
this is my life, right?
Like this is how I make sense of the world. Everything to me comes down to communication.
And so I was like, that's what I want to do. So it was in that classroom in the year 2011, actually,
that I decided that that's what I wanted to be because I loved teaching. And that was a part of my
job. I always really liked cause I did a lot of training.
And so I had originally gone back to school for teaching elementary education. Middle school
sciences, what I was going to teach, but anyway, so blah, blah, blah, long story longer. I just was
like, okay, cool. So then I asked Kristin, how does one become a professor? So she kind of talked
me through it and I was like, cool.
So I've been on I, and I've had a career the entire time. And I was married for like I was with my
partner at the time. So I was married up until 2019. So I had a family and a career and a two hour
commute and, you know, I still figured out how to make it all happen. And I started teaching in
2019.
I taught during my graduate program when I got my master's, but so, yeah. And then when I got
through half of my master's, because in order to teach, they have to have a minimum of basically
half of your master's has to be in that study in that area. So I, once I finished. I remember if it
was 16 credits or whatever, it was, you know, eight classes that I was eligible to teach.
Kristen was the department chair and invited me to teach a class and it went really well and she
invited me back again. And then that other places. Got jobs at other places. And I was when I
finished my masters, my where I finished my master's invited me to teach. So I teach there still.
And yeah, so now I start my PhD program in the fall and I quit my.
Real job last fall at NPR. And yeah, I've just been teaching ever since. And it's what I meant to
do is my favorite thing in the whole wide world. I love it.
[00:20:10] Jesse: It being what you were meant to do I couldn’t agree more with. That is a solid
timeline up until we get to the the climax of the interview or at least what it's supposed to be,
which is the your Augsburg experience essentially.
So I have a a number of questions here regarding that. Now that we've reached the point in your
life or in the, again, in the timeline where you are here. In terms of when, when you were in
undergrad and taking those courses in classes could you speak on behalf of what you thought
about, and you can be as honest as possible.
This isn't like a puff piece for Augsburg at all. It's a, it's an honest oral history report. The
professors, were they all phenomenal? Was it mixed? Well, what's your take on the professional?
[00:21:00] Marceleen: So I loved my experience at Augsburg. Being in the weekend college,
there were fewer professors that taught in the evenings and weekends.
And so I had less access. Like I didn't get to have a class with Bob Grohman one of the
communications studies department co-chairs, you know, like I didn't, I never had a class. With,
you know, folks that just taught undergraduates during the day. But like most of my classes were
with Dr. Chamberlain or Dr. Lou Hako and I loved them both. And my experience here was
amazing. First of all, to be able to come to college with such small class sizes, because I went to
Normandale where many of my classes were held in an auditorium and there was 50, 60. In
every class. And I had taken a lot of online classes before and after coming to Augsburg.
And so it was just really nice to have really like deep discussions in the classroom and to be able
to share ideas and articulate you know, to be able to apply. As you're learning them to your own
personal experiences and express and articulate them in the classroom. It's just for me, really an
effective way to learn.
And so I had an exceptional experience here at Augsburg. I love the small class sizes. I loved,
you know, the time worked really well for me, evenings, weekends, I could manage my job and
you know, I didn't have a life, but. That was okay. So yeah, it was, it was really a really positive
experience. I loved also the a lot of the other spaces in my life were really, you know, kind of
white and filled with people, just like, you know, not just like me, but other, you know, other
women, my age, you know, whatever.
So to come to Augsburg, there were people of different ability levels, different sexual
orientations, different, you know, from different countries and from different walks of life. And,
you know, from the inner city, from rural America, they were just, there was, I don't know if they
still have such a strong military program, but they used to have a strong military program where
veterans got a lot of support here.
And so I had a lot of vets in my classes and I was just like, The classroom discussions that you
were able to have with people from all over. So many different experiences was really magical
for me to, you know, to be in a white collar service profession, being surrounded mostly by
middle-class upper middle-class white folks.
You want to come here where there was people from all over the world. And with just so many
different perspectives was really good for me too. So yeah, I loved my, my undergrad here.
[00:23:49] Jesse: Awesome, that taps into actually a lot of the questions I had regarding
Augsburg. Shortly after professors, you started to talk about the deep discussions.
You felt like that was a something you weren't really to obtain at other schools. And maybe you
could elaborate on how effective the learning was. Maybe the discussions played a role in the
effect of learning, but in general, do you think that you had very effective learning here at
Augsburg?
[00:24:15] Marceleen: Yeah, really like and again, I didn't have a ton of different professors, but
I think that. Small classroom size really allows from a pedagogy perspective. My, I am a student
centered educator and I believe that the best way that we can teach is by teaching concepts and
then having. Yeah, putting it into action, right?
Like we're going to talk about something and then we're just going to do it. And I'm going to, I
want you to tell me about what you think about it through your own lens of existence and
through life. And so but I, I think that I built that that that student centered approach to teaching
and that.
Applicable applying concepts to our lives approach through my experience here and lectures
were super effective. I used to hate group work and I kind of hated in class discussion at because
it was just like so painful and like one person would just talk the whole time.
Like, there's something really magical about having an environment where everybody feels like
they can speak up. And that the instructors here did that. They could foster that environment.
They made the information that they were teaching really accessible. And everybody was able to
pitch it.
And add to the discussion, which is again, where I see the value, right? Like talking about and
explaining this concept, you can be like, okay, okay, I get that, but it's not until you start to like
talk through it. Like oh, that's your interpretation of it. Oh, that's how you apply it to that
experience. And like, that's what helps to build the concept up.
And of course, yeah, and it's different for all, for different classes, like in public speaking. I want
folks to just build their speeches and stand up and do it because that's how, that's how you learn.
Like I can stand up here and talk about strategy. And how you should, you know, apply X, Y, and
Z, but until you see your fellow students do it and not only what they're doing well, but what
they're not doing as well.
It's, it's hard to make sense of those things and make sense of these concepts, especially when
things kind of seem common sense like, oh yeah, well, duh of course. Right? But until you see
someone not do it well, or do it really, really well and have that emotional response or have, you
know, whatever response the speaker is looking for you to have, you may not, you might be like,
oh yeah, there it is.
And so that was the kind of education that I got here and yeah. And that kind of taught me how
not only I love to learn and love to learn, but it also helped me to build how I want to teach too. I
hope that answered that question. I went off the rails.
[00:27:09] Jesse: It answered it quite thoroughly I would say. Continuing, you know banking off
the subject of those real personal in-depth conversations that you're able to have in a small
classroom, I don't don’t think it’s foolish to make the connection that might be because it's a, it's
a private school. It's a much smaller private school, not public, where it has a whole lot of state
funding and create can have those giant auditoriums where, you know, you can't get that a super
personal level of learning.
That's obviously a big pro of Augsburg being a private school. But can you say anything about
other positives and maybe mention a few of the negatives that come along with tending to a
private school.
[00:27:48] Marceleen: There's no money. So I teach, I went to a public university for my
graduate degree and I teach there still.
And there's so much money. I mean, it's just, you know, you get access to Adobe creative suite,
which I'm a graphic designer as well. I like to have access to that. And I just get it because I have
a Sam Houston email address, you know and the class sizes, they are, they are bigger. But there
are more resources to support.
You know, to support folks, but there's also less flexibility. So like I get to choose my books. I
get to design my class, how I want, I have support, our department chairs are super supportive.
They give guidance, they give feedback. I run like 90% well, maybe not that much. I run much
of what I do in my class, pass my department chair.
And I'm able to talk through things with her. I don't have that same experience at the state school.
Not only because there are 20 other faculty members in my department there. So, and there's one
department chair but also there's just less choice. So they already, they've chosen a committee of
faculty members.
Which I could have been a part of, but I didn't have time, but a committee of faculty members
evaluated all of the textbooks recommended, like I said, oh, here's my textbook. I'd like to use.
So they evaluated all the textbooks for public speaking, for example, and they chose the book
and they're like, here you go.
But our, our school isn't, or that school isn't streamlined enough where they just, you know,
maybe have pre recorded lectures and the classes already built. And then you just grade, which is
the case for some part-time faculty member, like adjunct faculty members. So you still have to
you're constrained, but also you have some freedom at that level, but at Augsburg I'm not
constrained in that way.
Like the book I chose, don't tell anybody recording, but the book I chose for the semester, I will
never use again because I don't think anybody was reading it. It it's just yeah, I thought it was
great to have more. But I just can't go back to the pocket guide, but at a university like Augsburg,
you could try something like that.
You can give a book, a try and be like, oh, let's see how it works. And then be like, Ooh, I don't
think this works. And then you can make a choice in another semester and you can yeah, there's a
lot of support for faculty as they prepare. And yeah, and I really, really like the small class sizes
and the amount of flexibility that you have, which again, those are like some of the bonuses,
right?
Because, well, like teachers saying you can't teach somebody else's class, you have to make it
your own because just like in public speaking, if you're not passionate about it or it doesn't make
sense to you, the way that something's put together, you're not going to do as good of a job. And
so here at Augsburg, All of your instructors are teaching in a way that works for them.
And they are bringing their own passion and expertise to the instruction in a way that, you know,
like when I start, I think you, in the fall, I am teaching public speaking there and they it's a class
it's prebuilt. They teach you how to teach public speaking for the you. And so I will have to teach
in the way that you wants me to teach, I won't be able to, you know, teach in the way that I, I
mean, I will still get to be me, but I won't be able to design the course myself and lay things out.
I don't get to choose the book. It's all just like, all right, welcome to the U, and you have a person
there with you your whole first semester. Who's like shaping and molding your, your instruction
and your approach to ensure that you're doing what they expect you to. And for me, I am I'm
always standing up to the man to me, part of public speaking and part of why it's important to
have public speaking skills is you need to be able to push back on.
Systems and all the structures in society and one of the strongest ways you can do that is by
having oral communication skills, any who. And so like this, this class, I don't think I've done it
as much, but I usually push back, like everything we learn I'll be like where, what values
informed this perspective?
Like why is it important that I have you stand up in front of the class? Okay. Sitting in a circle
with everybody around you, you know? So so my point is, is that the private schools, you're part
of why I think it's a little more magical is that there is just so much more freedom. So then folks
instructors are able to show up their authentic selves and connect with students in you know,
meaningful way that helps also.
Private institutions, especially ones where research is really important. Your instructor may not
even really care. Like teaching may not be their jam research is probably their jam. And so
they're just teaching as a part of their duty to the college. They, there's not like, yeah. So at
Augsburg, everybody here loves teaching because this isn't a research institution.
It's a liberal arts school. So like when I go to the U research is the priority there. So I only teach
one class a semester because most of my time is expected to be expended doing research for the
university so.
[00:33:25] Jesse: That is really interesting. The idea that, the lack of funding to maybe even the
lack of a, not as ample of a salary, it almost acts as a filter to that that shows the true teachers that
people actually love teaching, you know, in a non coming to a non research Institute to it's, it's
almost like that's how, you know, you know, coming to a small private school like this, that's
how, you know, the teachers here and they, the classroom discussions are going to be the most
advantageous that's, that's extremely interesting, you know, and it's funny too, cause you went
out and talking about your experience as a faculty coming to Augsburg, the private school, and I
thought you would, when I first asked that question, I thought you would give a testimony on
your opinion of of the tuition, the tuition factor.
The fact that I am fortunate enough because I am a veteran that uncle Sam pays for half the
check and then Augsburg is willing to cover the rest. So I, I, I sit here and I feel like I entered
some kind of cheat code for life, essentially.
But it is, you know, it's a private school in compared to a public. The tuition is quite quite
meatier. And I wanted wondering what your take on that might be well.
[00:34:32] Marceleen: So what are the reasons I love Augsburg is that most, I don't know what
the percentage is, but most students here have some kind of financial aid or financial support.
I pay. Like we can call it, there were no discounts and I didn't get financial aid, so I didn't have a
pretty expensive, well, it's very expensive. But it was worth it to me because I had, I guess I
hadn't even considered going to a different. Well, partly because I hadn't considered a university
going to the university level anyway.
But most of my friends, since they people, my age had already graduated and their school
experiences never sounded like. I am like, I don't want that, you know? And so to me, it was just
not even a question like this is where I want to go and yeah, it costs more money, but that's
probably part of the student loan situation is that it's like fake money anyway, but.
So yeah, tuition has not really, it's not something that I have even thought about. I probably spent
more time thinking about private institutions relationship with religious institutions. Private
schools hire in some way, shape or form affiliated with religious institutions. Augsburg of course,
is affiliated with the Lutheran church.
But they have a pluralistic value set where, you know, all religion has value and even the choice
to see no value in religion is respected here. So I do really appreciate and love how it I'm an
atheist. And so it's, it's I never have felt uncomfortable here once. Right. But I teach at St.
Catherine's and like, God comes up in most emails from the president.
And like, it's very, it's a, they're a really progressive schools. Really like critical feminist, like
roots. But God is woven through everything. So that's, that's probably the more problematic for
me area in a private institution is the likelihood of religious values shaping the experience. Like I
got an offer to work and I can't remember the name of the school at St. Joseph, but they invited
me, went through the interview process and I was like, cool, cool. I plan to start teaching. I think
it was the semester I was going to be teaching there. And then the HR part and paperwork, you
had to sign an oath. It was a Catholic institution and you had to basically sign a note that said
you respected, like basically you were anti anti-abortion and like believed.
So it was pretty aggressive and I was like, I cannot sign this.
[00:37:19] Jesse: That’s hard to believe for it being a,
[00:37:21] Marceleen: College. So yeah. I mean, that's, it was, I saved it because I was like, I
want to, I want to share this. It was, it was pretty aggressive and basically like said that men were
above women.
It was like old school and I was like, oh, I can't sign that. And they were like, oh, you can't work
here then. And I was like, fair enough, because I probably don't belong here.
[00:37:47] Jesse: That, that was also going to be regarding the Augsburg experience. That was
going to be one of my questions was the religious influence.
Like how do you feel that the fact that this is a Lutheran private school, how that affects
everything? I, I, all I can do is agree with you. You know, this is only my first year here, but it's
like, there's almost, at least so far in my classes, barely any undertone of religious, of religion. In
fact, they, they make it mandatory that you take a religion and vocation class.
And I thought like, okay, here we go. They're going to try to spoon, feed me some Christianity,
but we talk about Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism. We talked about all the religions and I had
open discussions with people of other faiths I learned so much about the religion of Islam. I
thought so much about everything and it was and at no point it might've just been the instructor.
I don't know how it was supposed to be taught, but yes. Yeah. And it was, it was so comforting,
you know, like it, it gave me. I dunno, it's just really uplifting the fact that we could have such
open discussions despite the fact that it was a it's a Lutheran school and the people who made,
you know, who first established this were probably, you know, crazy Bible thumpers in all
honesty to do see that this is where the colleges in present day. That was very comforting to see.
[00:39:00] Marceleen: I loved my world religions class. Cause we used to have to take world
religion one and world religion too. I don't know if you do have to take those two, but they were
two. I did not care for one of the instructors like personality wise, but he did an amazing job and
it was, I loved those classes and I would never have considered taking them.
Had they not forced us to take them. Then I was like, oh my gosh, this was more like a history
class. Like this is so yeah. Agreed. Okay.
[00:39:29] Jesse: So we've talked about a lot of the good things it kind of is kind of almost a puff
piece .
[00:39:33] Marceleen: You can't help it I'm real big fan
[00:39:36] Jesse: It's funny cause I'm just about out of questions regarding Augsburg.
Except I, I'm kind of gonna end it on a bad note because I want your take on the location. The
fact that it is a directly next to that highway there, and we've got that beautiful, wonderful wall.
And also what I've heard about quite a few complaints about from the faculties, the Lutheran
architecture that we have.
What, what, what is your take on both of those aspects?
[00:40:02] Marceleen: So I have a background in architecture. You may recall, and I am quite
particular. I think the location is actually wonderful if we had more money, like if, if we had, you
know a beautifully rich in payment. I would love to see the campus be walkable.
I mean, not have any parking on campus because I think that would change the energy of the, of
campus, right? Like if all the streets were only there for handicap accessibility and like
pedestrian traffic, if that was fully where I think that it would make be next to the 94 and the big
wall a lot different because our space would be, we would be able to curate more community on
our space right now it's just, and so that's my biggest beef is that our campus doesn't have the
same sense of like place in space that you know, I teach at Hamlin. There's no driving anywhere
on campus. I mean, the, you can drive the little like golf cart and things through for accessibility
and stuff, but it's enclosed and it has a sense of place in space that we don't have here on campus.
But I love that we are situated in such a diverse. Multicultural community. And I think it's really
important, especially since Augsburg is found even up until today, like service of vocation is core
to why we're even being educated, right? Like we're being educated to be like civic citizens of
the world to, to make the world a better place.
That's why we get this education. Right. And so I think being situated in a community where we
can put our selves to service immediately, right? Like we can volunteer in any way. Spaces, we
can go have lunch and have a, you know, a native American meal. We can have a Somali meal.
We can have, like, we can go share space with people from all over the world, just in a, in a
walk, right?
Like just walking across the footbridge or, you know, across the street. I think that our locations.
Kind of core to our place in the world. I love our location. I do wish we had more money. I don't
care about like the buildings kind of having that, you know, maybe it's not the most beautiful
campus in the world.
[00:42:29] Jesse: If you see St. Thomas to write down downtown? It's beautiful.
[00:42:35] Marceleen: Yeah. I don't care for St. Thomas, but yeah, it is beautiful. It's kind of like
a castle. Yeah, I think like for me like if we had, if we had a larger endowment, the most
important thing would be that creation of community and space. And if having nicer buildings
served that then cool, but like, for me, it's all about how to best pour our resource resources into
our community. Right. And if having nicer buildings, med, we would have more students. But
then at the same time, like, I don't want to serve a different population of people. Like I love who
comes to Augsburg.
I love, you know a smaller percentage of students are ready for college. More students come here
from lower socioeconomic backgrounds, more students come here from, with military service.
They're like, I love our student body and I wouldn't want that to change. And if all we're
buildings were nicer and fancier and more attractive, you know, maybe, maybe it would seem
inaccessible, maybe other people who need an opportunity to come to a wonderful education.
[00:43:50] Jesse: It would just appeal to the elite.
[00:43:52] Marceleen: Yeah. But it would be like our grounds to have more of a sense of
community, but yeah.
[00:43:58] Jesse: Okay. That's fine. That's funny. You took both those aspects and you put a
incredibly positive spin on it, which actually.
I'm going to adopt both of those perspectives. That's a good point. You know, I, I was going to
ask you a little bit about public radio, but I want you to have, you know, be able to go at length,
talking about once you get your graduate degree, what is your end goal career?
[00:44:23] Marceleen: I want to be a full-time faculty member at one university, I work at for
right now. And it's a lot. I want to just serve one student body. Like my, the reason I do this, the
reason I teach is to empower students and I want to be able to be a full-time faculty member so
that I can build connections and support students outside of the classroom, too.
I want to have advisees. Support students in research. I love, I love research, but the thing I love
best about it is collaborating on research and and supporting other people's work and research.
And so I want to be a full time faculty member. I would love to be a full-time faculty member
here. But I will look all over the country and I will go wherever I land.
But yeah, I just want to serve the student student population and I'm not interested in serving I
would never work at St. Thomas. I'm not interested in serving folks. And not to say every person
at St. Thomas, it falls in this category, but folks who have had advantages all throughout life,
nothing wrong with that.
No judgment, but I'm more interested in serving folks who have had to work harder to land at a
university that's who I'm interested in supporting. So, yeah, I hope to end up if not at Augsburg at
a place like Augsburg or somewhere and just hoarding students doing my research teaching.
[00:45:56] Jesse: That sounds exciting. How far away is that in your future?
[00:45:59] Marceleen: Three to five years. My, I could technically finish up my doctorate in
three years because I already have a master's. The program is five years for folks straight from
bachelor's. You don't have to have a master's. But then it's a five-year program, but I don't know
how long it will take me because of course I have to make enough money to like live. So I'm still
adjuncting while I'm going through my PhD. So you know it'll take me about three to five years
to wrap that up. And then in my last year, I'll start applying for jobs. So in theory, in five years, I
could. I could be in a full-time tenure track position somewhere, but probably the students that
we like I'll start applying for things in about three, three years. So, yeah.
[00:46:42] Jesse: Anyway, it's awesome that we're talking about when that'll happen. Not so
much, if you know. When you're going to, you know, it's like, it's there, it's like given the
trajectory of your life there's no doubt you're going to get to where you want to go. It's so
exciting. Yes, absolutely.
I do, this is the last question. The one I'm most interested in hearing because it sounds like you've
had a pretty awesome life. You gotta to be interesting, I mean, but you're also a very inspirational
from what I can tell the most. And at the end, you know, when you, when you. Maybe you don't
plan on retiring, but when you feel like you have to, when you do, when you, you look back on
the mark, you have left what do you, what do you hope your legacy will be when people, people
recall you?
[00:47:26] Marceleen: I want individual people, like, I don't care about any collective
appreciation of who I was in the world, but I would, I want is that individuals had that same
experience that I had in education. I want to be a part of their tapestry of knowledge. Right? And
so for me, my legacy might be invisible. It, people may not, my students may not remember me.
They may not. That's very possible, but the ideas that I helped plant in their minds I hope grow
their lives. Right? And like the most inspirational teachers for me have done from fourth grade to
10th grade to, you know, my, my associates degree and then here at Augsburg and my undergrad,
like those few teachers that like.
Shook me. I remember those teachers, but what they like grew in me is still flourishing and
growing today. And that's what I want. Like whether students remember me or not. And it's one
of those things where I may teach something in class and it may not even click for two, three
years. I don't know. But my legacy I picture it like a beautiful woven, you know, kind of
invisible, but like beautiful woven tapestry, just everywhere in the world, just growing ideas in,
in minds. And then in a tree morals, they would be passed on to their children, that passion for
learning or that passion for a communication theory or a strategy.
I love teaching public speaking. And one of the reasons is that I think that so many people don't
think they can speak or that they're good at speaking, or and I want the, I want folks to walk
away from my class, knowing that their voice matters and that they absolutely can stand up in
front of a class.
Okay. At speak and they, they should, so, yeah, so that's what I want. I just want more people to
feel empowered, to be better in the world. That's that's my legacy. Even nobody will probably
notice. It'll just be a quiet legacy.
[00:49:42] Jesse: But you know, a profound influence for the, for the better .
[00:49:50] Marceleen: Little quiet, little ripples or loud who knows it might be a splash.
[00:49:57] Jesse: Yeah. Well, I think that was a wonderful ending to a beautiful interview. Thank
you. Thank you so much, Marceleen for being able to come in.Thank you. I mean, wonderful
answers. So thank you. All right. I look forward to the rest of the semester with you.
Show less
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Natasha J 0:03
All righty, so um, my name is Natasha Johnston Brugger and today I will be interviewing Noya
Woodrich. She graduated from Augsburg with her Bachelor's in 1992 and then her Master's in
1994. And now she is on the Board of Regents at Augsburg and today we'll be talking about... Show more
1
Natasha J 0:03
All righty, so um, my name is Natasha Johnston Brugger and today I will be interviewing Noya
Woodrich. She graduated from Augsburg with her Bachelor's in 1992 and then her Master's in
1994. And now she is on the Board of Regents at Augsburg and today we'll be talking about her
experience as a woman student when she was at Augsburg and then also her involvement
afterwards and then any other intersections that come up throughout the interview. So, for my
first question, what was your experience as a student at Augsburg and why did you decide to
attend Augsburg?
Noya Woodrich 0:50
Well, I decided to attend Augsburg because Augsburg offers the Bachelor's in social work, and I
had actually started college over at Concordia in St. Paul. But I didn't know what I wanted to
major in and so when I decided on social work, I looked around to other colleges and
universities in Minneapolis and St. Paul to see who offered that undergraduate and Augsburg
was just one of two at that time. So, I -- that's why I transferred to Augsburg, and I will say that
Rosemary Link, who's a former professor and department chair for the social work department,
she was the person who gave me the tour of Augsburg the first time I came to visit and it's was
really her and her tour and her description of the program and description of Augsburg that that
sold me on Augsburg. And I remain in touch with her to this day, even though she's been gone
from Augsburg for a while. My experience as a woman at Augsburg, um, I would say I don't
necessarily think about my experience in terms of being a woman more so I think about it in
terms of being a native person, and maybe a native woman. So I think in order to understand
that experience, I have to say a little bit about myself in that I am Alaska Native, but even even
though I was adopted and raised by a non native family. And so I grew up in central Wisconsin,
in a German Lutheran community, and was not connected to my community not connected to
my Native community. And so, when I came to Augsburg, I knew that that's part of what I
wanted to do. And made the first step in doing that by choosing the location for my internship.
When you're a social work student, you have to do an internship as a junior, and I intentionally
chose to go to a Native serving organization to do my internship. And that was really my first
intentional contact with my with the Native community here, my community. And so I think that
that really... I knew Bonnie Wallace, who was the director of the American Indian support
program at that time, and I'd met with her as an incoming Native student, but I didn't really utilize
that program or the supports that offered until I was working on my master's degree. I was
fortunate circumstance where my mom and dad were paying for college, so I didn't really need
to worry about getting financial assistance or anything like that. And I was just becoming
connected to the Native community through my internship and my work. And so I didn't
necessarily need that from the American Indian support program at Augsburg. But I remember...
(Pause) Social work you may or may not know is a pretty female dominant dominated field. I
think it's better now in terms of the number of men that the field attracts, but back then, I think
there was two guys in our social work classes, and there was probably 15 to 18 women. And so
it really was my experience at Augsburg was mostly with women. And I think that that in many
ways... (Pause).
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I think back to those times when you have group discussions in class or maybe group projects.
And I don't know that safe is the word but it felt like when you were not in a gender mixed group,
you didn't have to, you already had some kind of gender oriented assumptions in place about
each other. And so you don't need to do that. That kind of learning piece, or recognition that
there were men and women at the table are part of the discussion.
And then the other thing that I really valued was that most of the professors in the Social Work
program are also women. And this is the early 90s. Right? So, um, well, well past those
decades of our history where women had to fight for their rights as women, but not so far past
the 60s and 70s and 80s, where there was still kind of these expected roles for, for women in
terms of being a mother, being at home, not being a professional. And I think seeing Native- or
seeing female professors, who had been in their field of choice for decades, was also good to
see and women of color like Mary Anne Williams and Francine Chakolis two black women,
professors at Augsburg at that time, and they'd been in their field, you know, for three, four
decades. And were really strong women to look up to in terms of the social work department.
And then socially, I suppose this is natural for college for that particular age. Who I surrounded
myself with was all women. And I'll say Augsburg is the place where I developed those
friendships, those friendships that you have for life. Um, you know, my best friend is someone
from Augsburg. And I think that having that kind of sisterhood, you know, when when I was a
junior there, I lived in Urness Tower, because that's where transfer students went. But when I
was a senior we, there used to be these houses that you could use, they were kind of a Greek
system, but not really. And so there was this one house, kind of across from Old Main, where
the-the dorms are now. And there was 13 of- 13 girls that lived in that house, my senior year, it
was like a three story monster house and those 13 of us that live there. And like those are still
some of the best times of my life, right? Just being with women. There was one other social
work major, there was a communications major, there was a business major, there was a
someone who was going into art, you know, I mean, that was a really broad diversity of
disciplines. And then I was the Native, and then we had a black person, and we had an Asian
person. So to the extent that diversity was possible, we-we have that racial and ethnic diversity
as well. And I think just both socially and professionally, still a lot of relationships that I call on
from those early Augsburg days.
Natasha J 9:03
Um, did you kind of feel compelled to go into social work? Because a lot of women were doing
it, or did you feel like you had a choice to do kind of any degree?
Noya Woodrich 9:14
Yeah, I mean, the reason it took me a year and a half of college to decide is because I felt
compelled to go into every field, but social work. My dad was a social worker, and my
grandmother was a social worker, and I knew kind of early on it, that's what I wanted to do. But
my mom was a teacher. And both my mom and dad, neither of them were in their fields for very
long. So my dad did social work for 10 years, my mom taught for like 12, but then they got into
business. So they were entrepreneurs and self employed. They did real estate, auctions,
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insurance, convenience store, you name it. And so my mom, I remember always saying you
need to be -- you need to know that you're going to get a job when you graduate. That was very
important to her. And so she was continually steering me towards fields that she thought I would
be able to get a job in when I was done. I think looking back as a person of color, having a
college degree in the early 90s, like not even a person of color as a Native person getting a
college degree in the early 90s, I could have-- I could have got a job anywhere with any degree,
you know, any initials behind my name, I could have got a job. Um,
I don't know.
I think she based her understanding of social work on my Dad's experience. And so I don't think
she really understood what social work could all encompass. But it was finally halfway through
my sophomore year of college, I said, I'm doing social work. That's what I've always wanted to
do. And I'm going to transfer to Augusb-Augsburg, so I actually have the Social Work letters
behind my name after I get my bachelor's degree. And I'm pretty sure I'll be able to get a job.
And of course I did. But that was I would say that was kind of my story behind social work.
Natasha J 11:21
Was there any specific class that you took that left a big impact on you?
Noya Woodrich 11:26
I hardly remember the classes -- that was 30 years ago
Um
No, I don't think there were any classes in particular. I think there were -- I'm not going to
remember her name -- she was adjunct faculty, but she taught one of my classes my senior
year, of, for my bachelor's degree. And she was the first adjunct faculty I had. And the thing that
I noticed about her, you know, as adjunct, adjunct faculty, you, you have a full time job doing
something, and then you just teach on the side. I noticed a significant difference between her
and the tenured professors at Augsburg in that she could talk about social work from like her
real lived experience, right. So she was still doing social work, and teaching about it. And that I
remember that being really impactful, like me noticing that about her right away, like, 'Oh, she's
like, she's actually still doing this social work thing, and she knows what she's talking about.' I
think I noticed that and then other things are, things I remember about classes were probably
things that were semi traumatic at that point, like the public speaking, pieces of work, you know,
now I can do public speaking and not even blink an eye but then, you know, as a 20, 21 year
old, that was terrifying. And then in social work class, we would need to do like practice
counseling sessions, where two of us would sit in the front of all of the other class members and
do a sample counseling session. I remember research class being kind of scary, because that's
not research is more of the sciency part of social work, and that wasn't my thing. So those are
the types of things I remember I don't really remember anything more than that. I think the
internships were probably what was most impactful for me.
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I will say this was my for my master's degree. So when you do an internship, you also have a
class that goes along with that. And when I did my master's degree, and I did my internship, my
the instructor for the class was Karen Johnson. And her husband was a minister at a church in
North Minneapolis. And I don't know what it was about her that was so appealing, but she really
she really made that class that went alongside the internship feel far more valuable than any of
the others before that had. And she's another one i -- she's about my mother's age, so she's in
her early 80s -- and she and I still stay in touch. And her husband has passed away her son has
passed away. For years at the nonprofit organization I was working at she would bring a group
of students from Luther College in Iowa up to spend a day with me at our organization, so I
could talk about doing social work in the native community probably did that for 15 different
years, 15 different visits. So she's another one, where I, you know, I couldn't necessarily put my
finger on it, but she was another female professor who had an impact in some way. One, so that
I, you know, I'm still in touch with her 30 years later.
Natasha J 15:38
Um, so you did talk about, like, the kind of diversity of the female students in the one house you
lived with? What, um, what did you kind of notice, that's like the overall experience for, like, I
guess, like the treatment of women on campus, I'm sure maybe they had some stories or other
friends. Um
Noya Woodrich 16:10
Well, none of my -- neither, me nor anyone in my friend group had any traumatic experiences at
Augsburg in terms of being a woman and things that can happen to women.
We also I would say, given that two of us were in social work, and all of the other kind of girls in
that friend group or that mini network, or probably a little bit more like minded, either from a
political perspective, or a social perspective. So I know we would do like because of me and the
girl who were in social work, we have connections to the nonprofit organizations and different
programs that they did. So I know, we would do a lot of volunteer work together. And, like, I think
that's always
I don't know, doing volunteer work together, I think sometimes allows you to see the best in
people, right? Because it's depending on what you're doing. You kind of get a different
perspective on people and how they interact with others and how they approach that type of
work, the volunteer work and so I just remember that being have a significant experience. I that I
don't remember. So I you know, I, you know, you hear stories about girls being raped or
assaulted, sexually harassed. That wasn't my experience, that wasn't the experience of anyone
in my group. And, but I also don't remember it being talked about, right, like there wasn't any
class or discussion about this is how you take care of yourself as a woman, a young woman in
at Augsburg and I think of note the fact that Augsburg is where it is physically located. Right. It's
in South Minneapolis. And, you know, I know if I had a daughter and I were sending her to
Augsburg, I'd sit down and have a conversation say, here's some tips on how to keep your safe.
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Keep yourself safe where you're at. I don't remember anyone doing that or having that
conversation. Again, I think it was probably you know, it's on the tail end of the 80s. Early 90s.
People didn't talk about that stuff a ton? And if it happened to anyone else at Augsburg at the
time, nobody talked about it because I don't remember it hear and I don't remember hearing
about it
Natasha J 19:22
Did you feel like there were any, like challenges that were unique to you as I guess a woman
student but also as a Native student that you had to overcome?
Noya Woodrich 19:53
So when I was working on my master's degree, I did -- that's when I need to start paying for it on
my own. My parents were no longer paying for school, so I needed to figure out how to get that
paid for on my own without taking out a lot of loans. And so that's what really when I went back
to Bonnie Wallace with the American Indian support program and said, 'How can you help me?'
and she really, she really did that she like, stepped up and provided a lot of help to me in that
regard.
I think my — the struggles that I had, as a Native student were actually back at Concordia, not
at Augsburg and so there were a few other Native students at Augsburg. I didn't know many and
there weren't any in the Social Work program. And again, my kind of contact with or integration
into Minneapolis as a Native community was happening through my internship.
And so I don't remember thinking a ton about being a Native person when I was at Augsburg
and that might sound weird or interesting, but I kept -- and I probably still do this a little bit,
honestly -- I kept, I kept my Indian friends separate from my non Indian friends. And so I would
go and do things with these people I was working with a nonprofit organization where I was
doing my internship, and then I would come back and I would do things with my Augsburg
friends.
And, and, yeah, even today I don't really mix those groups a ton. And I think that's partially
recognition that there are cultural differences there. And unless I want to be in the role of
teacher where I'm teaching these people how to be with these people, and then then I can bring
them together, but I really, you know, I'm when you're talking about social stuff, you don't want to
also be a teacher. So I don't know that that necessarily has anything to do with Augsburg, but I
you know, I just really I will always be a fan of Augsburg. I think compared to Concordia like that
was night and day. And that's also worked for me. I you know, I grew up like I said, I grew up in
a German Lutheran neighborhood, who was Missouri Synod. And if you're familiar with the
Lutheran Church Missouri Synod, it's pretty conservative. I mean, like, the church I grew up in
women couldn't be part of the church council. They couldn't vote on church matters. It was really
in the dark ages, if you will, and that's how Concordia was right? Like, Concordia was the
Missouri Synod affiliated Lutheran Church, and it was very conservative. And here's part of why
I transferred you, people who went to Concordia, were either going to be a teacher, or they were
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going to be a minister. And so it was the women that were going to school to be teachers and
the men were going to school to be ministers. And I didn't fit either of those, and I didn't fit the
mold of the average student at Concordia. So that, you know, when it comes to being a Native
student, and a woman for that matter, Concordia was the frame of reference, that frame of
reference I was coming from, and so Augsburg was on the complete other end of the spectrum
from that. And so that is the thing that's of note to me, right like that transition from a Missouri
Synod affiliated college to a Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, affiliated college. And
what a difference that meant, for me spiritually, as a woman, as a Native person. It was after
Augsburg that I, that's when I like in finding a church home here in the Twin Cities area, went to
find an ELCA church versus a Missouri Synod because I could I could see what the differences
there were. I think also what social work and understanding Native issues -- like I remember,
you know, when I was doing my internship that was during the Desert Storm, the Iraq War. And
just thinking about that, from a different perspective, like I was always Native, but I grew up In a
German Lutheran neighborhood, community and so that was the perspective that I thought
about things from but as I, you know, when I came to Augsburg got exposed to my community
got exposed to a different, differently, mindset of people, I think changing my thinking about
social issues was really a significant part of that, that time of my life as well. Um, and, you know,
I just, you know, I'll never stop supporting Augsburg like I always, you know, I'm on the Regents,
I'm on the Regents for a reason, because I really care about Augsburg. I've have taught as
adjunct faculty in the Social Work program, I was on the Social Work advisory board for over a
decade. I just spoke in a class last week in the American Indian Studies program, I have been a
speaker at you know, a number of Social Work classes, still in touch with a lot of the professors
that I studied under at Augsburg even though most of them are gone. I can just never say
enough about Augsburg and I think that it whether you're a woman or a person of color, or a
LGBTQ or, you know, whatever the diversity might be whatever-whatever the racial or ethnic or
gender identity or what have you. I think Augsburg does a really good job of creating an
environment where where you can feel accepted. Now, does that mean that it's perfect all the
time? No. It does not. But I think I think that Augsburg does really well in these areas compared
to, because I've worked you know, I of course, got both my degrees from Augsburg, but I also
attended Hamline for a while working at a doctorate degree. I've taught students from Metro
State University I have supervised interns from the University of Minnesota from St. Thomas, St.
Kate's, from Bethel. So I've had contact enough with other universities and colleges in the Twin
Cities that if someone's considering a private option in the Twin Cities, I'll always say you should
definitely look at Augsburg.
Natasha J 27:43
Umm, oh, yeah, so when you were an adjunct at Augsburg? When was that? How long did you
do that for? And you said it was in the social work, right? What did you teach during that time?
Noya Woodrich 27:57
Um I think I taught just two classes. And I'm gonna say my son was pretty young. So it was
probably the early 2000s. I'm not a fan of teaching, to be honest. I mean, I don't mind the
teaching, it's all the stuff that goes along with it, like the scoring, the papers and the reading the
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papers and entering the grades and all that stuff. And mother, much rather just will be a group,
like a presenter or speaker or something like that at a class. Um, so I taught at the masters
level, I taught both ends of the spectrum. So I taught the intro to social work, which is like one of
the first classes that you take into masters level. And then I taught.
I'm not going to remember, but it's in the PDPA. So policy development, policy analysis, PDP
program development, policy and analysis, or administration, I'm sorry, PDPA, program
development policy and administration. So that's one of the two concentrations in a master's
program there in Augsburg and that was my constant area of concentration. And so I taught the
last class in that concentration. So the students in my class, it was literally Saturday afternoon,
of their last trimester of their master's degree program. I will say not the ideal time slot, because
in the master's program, you're going Friday night, and then all day Saturday, so to be teaching
that Saturday afternoon class, everyone was dozing off and falling asleep and, you know, like a
quarter of my job was just keeping people awake for four hours, and then trying to get them to
learn something But I think, you know, again, as a faculty, I think that's space to infuse my
experience, and my nativeness into the teaching of those classes was really welcome. And
really, I guess it was nice to have that leeway and that flexibility to do that, because it can be, I
don't know how it is in other disciplines, but in social work, social work, programs need to be
accredited by the Board of Social Work or by the Council of Social Work Education. And in order
to be accredited, you have to really say, this is the class, these are the things that you're going
to learn in this class. And this is how you're going to learn them. So it doesn't lend itself to a ton
of flexibility. And so the fact that there that I was provided that flexibility in teaching and how I
taught and what I taught, without straying too far from the kind of definition of the class, I think I
really appreciated that. And again, I don't know that, you know, talking about women's issues in
social work is probably a little hard, because it is such a female oriented field that, you know, I
was most of the other faculty that I was working with were women. And let's see. So like in that
particular class, there was only six students, two of them were guys and four were women. And
then in the other social work class I taught it was bigger, it was more like 15 students, and there
was two or three guys in there. So again, mostly dealing with women, and over the course of
time, more women of color than fewer women of color. So I think as a woman doing that work, it
just, it felt really supported. But I think by and large that comes because of the field as well.
Natasha J 32:24
Um, Kind of like — you’re answering all my questions as I think of them in my head. It’s like you
can hear my brain. Like, so, what, you kind of already talked about it a little bit, but what inspired
you to join the Board, and do you feel like your perspective is adding a lot to the Board in
helping out with decisions and stuff?
Noya Woodrich 32:56
Um, so, Bonnie Wallace, who had been the founding director of the American Indian Support
Program, uh, when she retired she came back to be part of the Board of Regents. When she
was done with her term as a board, as a Regent, she helped President Pribbenow find some
replacements and I was one of two Native people that she reached out to. And I’ll say it was
8
always something that I was interested in, but I didn’t think that I’d ever rise to the level of
becoming a Regent for Augsburg or for anywhere else. Because it is a, it can be a bit of a
prestigious position I guess. I maybe see that differently now that I am a Regent. So it was, like I
was, like they couldn’t even get the question all the way out of their mouth. I’m like, yep, nope.
And I think I ticked a couple boxes too, right? I’m Native. I’m Lutheran. And that’s, you know,
being Lutheran is part of what they look for in Regents. Not across the board, but um, they do
need to have so many Lutheran people on the Board. So yeah, I quickly agreed to do it. It is one
of those boards, and I’ve been part of Boards of Directors for nonprofit organizations that are
like this where there is a lot of people with a lot of money. I’m not. Right, I’m not. I’m a social
worker. I don’t have money. Not a lot of it. Certainly not millions of dollars to contribute to the
construction of whatever building is being constructed at the time. So in that way, I would say
that I feel a little bit out of my league because I just know I’m sitting next to someone who has
the capability of writing out a million dollar check. I don’t know what that feels like. But I think
where —so the committees that I sit on are Student Affairs and then like Marketing and
Enrollment. And I think, like I think of those marketing and enrollment committee meetings.
Every time we have a meeting and they present their numbers about who’s applied, where are
they in the process of being enrolled, how are they gonna be accepted, are they enrolled, you
know, all of those different kind of measures that, uh, that team of people tracks. Um, I’m always
the one that says, “okay, and how are you doing with people of color?” So, you, you’re telling us
you have really good enrollment numbers, how many of those students are people of color? And
then ask the same question when we talk about retention of students because I know that even
from an employment perspective a place can be really good at hiring people of color it’s another
thing for them to be able to hang on to people of color. Likewise with students we can do really
good at recruiting students of color to Augsburg but if we’re not doing what it takes to get them
to stay there then we’re still missing the (inaudible) in some ways. I think being there and asking
that question at every single meeting just as a reminder to the staff and everybody else on the
committee that we can’t just look at enrollment we need to look at enrollment and dig down into
that to figure out what are we doing to recruit more students of color and hang onto them at
Augsburg. I think that with the student affairs similarly going to the chair of that committee and
saying hey I think it would be helpful for us to hear from the American Indian Support Program
or any of the other kind of support programs that take place to say what are you, do you have
the resources that you need in order to do what you need to do to keep our students of color
here at Augsburg. And then I don’t know that I had anything to do with it, pretty sure I didn’t, but
the fact that it happened while I’m on the Board of Regents and that is the move to pay for
tuition for Native students in totality. I’ll take a little bit of credit for that just because I’m on the
Regents right now. That’s amazing that a private university would take that step to, um, fully
support Native students to attend Augsburg. That’s, um, that’s a rare thing. And it’s certainly uh
trendsetting for Augsburg to do that both here in Minnesota and across the country. And it
makes me really proud that the place that I chose to get my higher education would do that.
Unfortunately, while I don’t make a ton of money, I make just enough that my son won’t be able
to take advantage of that offer at Augsburg. Um, that doesn’t mean I’m not going to try to get
him to go there anyhow. And I think, I think that there are enough people of color on the Board
of regents. There’s three of us native people and then there’s some other folks of color. I think
9
there’s enough of us that collectively we can remind the others that there’s different ways we
need to think about this, these issues as a board of regents whether we’re talking about
enrollment, or how much to charge for tuition in the upcoming year, or how to support student
affairs groups, how to support the faculty of the university, how to support the staff, or the
adjunct faculty of the university. I think all of those things — that augsburg is unique in many
ways and a lot of that comes from augsburg’s commitment to doing things the way they’ve done
them for a lot of years. And that’s really significant and I think that if I play any little role in
ensuring that augsburg continues to having a commitment to the non-average person, right? the
diversity, to the, um, racial and ethnic differences of its student body and faculty, then, um, that’s
good, I’ll keep asking the questions and making people think about things.
Natasha J 40:21
And then is there any advice that you’d give to current female students at Augsburg?
Noya Woodrich 40:36
I’ll say the same thing I said when I was talking to that class last week. I think one of the number
one things that I can, that has helped me to be as successful as I am — and I consider myself
successful in my career; I’ve accomplished a lot, I’ve done a lot, I’ve risen the ladder, if you will. I
think the number one thing that’s contributed to that is the relationships that I've developed over
the years. and like i was saying earlier many of those date back to augsburg whether those be
my friendships or my professional relationships I think that having a network of people that you
can call on in almost any circumstance in your career, your life, is really, really important. So, if I
were to say anything to younger folks out there that are maybe getting started it would be that.
take time to invest in your relationship building because those relationships will help carry you
far.
Natasha J 41:59
Was there anything that I didn’t ask you that you want to talk about still?
Noya Woodrich 42:06
I don’t think so. You had some good questions there.
Natasha J 42:13
Yeah. Well, I don’t have any other burning questions either. Um, thank you so much for doing
this interview with me. You had some really great insights. I’m just gonna stop the recording and
then we can, I can just —
First 30 min transcribed with otter.ai, and last 12 min are my own transcription.
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