Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler,
2018
Tue, 3/9 1:32PM
25:18
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, health, people, individuals, augsburg, community, neat, volunteer, nurse, comments,
patients, led, stigma, hear, volunteering, homeless, rapport, location, received, experience
SPEAKERS
Sam... Show more
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler,
2018
Tue, 3/9 1:32PM
25:18
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, health, people, individuals, augsburg, community, neat, volunteer, nurse, comments,
patients, led, stigma, hear, volunteering, homeless, rapport, location, received, experience
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Alisha Stahler
S
Samantha Gibson
00:00
Hello, my name is Samantha Gibson, and I'm an AmeriCorps VISTA worker with health
commons, would you please introduce yourself for the recording?
A
Alisha Stahler 00:07
Hi, my name is Alicia Stahler, and I am Augsburg student at the Augsburg University for
the nursing program for a bachelor's degree.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:18
Great, thank you. So I just like to reaffirm for the recording that you consent having this
interview and a transcript stored at the library, Augsburg University, where it'll be made
available to the public.
A
Alisha Stahler 00:30
Yes, I have consented for that.
Samantha Gibson
00:32
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 1 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
00:32
Great. The last thing I'd like to mention is that there may be some background noise. Is
there some lawn maintenance going on? That's, that's what that buzzing sound is. Alright.
So to get us started, would you please tell me a little bit about where you grew up, and
who you called family.
A
Alisha Stahler 00:50
So I grew up in a small town with a family of four brothers and our parents. We are a
middle class, family. And like most families are some families, we grew up with some
struggles, I had four brothers who did struggle with some alcohol and drug addiction. We
also had extended family of aunts and uncles and cousins that we spent a lot of time with,
we had game nights with them. Our family was pretty much involved in some church
activities, but never really volunteered for much within the community. As I got older,
though, I started to feel the need or felt led to get more involved into the community and
volunteer at a couple different things. I've only carest within the community here in my
surrounding area. And I also went on a mission trip to Guatemala. And I have also been
led to just do random acts of kindness, helping out people at a grocery store paying for
their groceries in line. So that kind of leads into the experience I had through Augsburg,
which kind of led me to get back into doing that.
S
Samantha Gibson
02:04
Okay, did you say that you grew up in Minnesota?
A
Alisha Stahler 02:08
Yep. here in Minnesota, just a small town of population was about 2000.
S
Samantha Gibson
02:14
All right, and how did you end up choosing Augsburg University?
A
Alisha Stahler 02:19
So I chose Augsburg because they're here they have a location here in the Rochester area.
And I have heard a lot of great things about their program. And also I really liked that
they're a faith based.
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 2 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
02:35
Thank you. And how did your experience at Augsburg lead to you becoming involved
health commons?
A
Alisha Stahler 02:44
So my first nursing core class to get the bachelor's degree, one of they're not really
requirements, but one of their programs allowed us to volunteer at the Health Commons
in Minneapolis, which kind of seeing patients that were of a diverse culture that had low
social economic backgrounds. So it was just an experience that was outside of what I'm
used to as a nurse working in a health care in the hospital setting.
S
Samantha Gibson
03:21
Yeah, absolutely. What else can you tell me about your experience of health commons.
A
Alisha Stahler 03:26
So at first, I really wasn't sure what to expect, because I haven't really volunteered with
any low income, social backgrounds, you know, homeless kind of volunteering work. So I
really wasn't sure what to expect. It was interesting when we talked about it in the
classroom, just to see the kind of the stigma that goes along with that kind of culture. A
lot of people in the classroom hadn't really been around homeless or difficulties of that
people are faced with in the world today. So it was really interesting to hear what people's
thoughts were. And growing up the way I did having brothers struggle a lot with addiction
and drug abuse, and just the, somewhat of a dysfunctional in our family, I kind of been
involved with a lot of judgment and a lot of what the stigma is on, on people on this world.
So this program, kind of, I felt really led to it because it kind of was nice to go in for myself
not having judgment, I try not to have that kind of judgment on people. So the experience
was quite interesting and really rewarding.
S
Samantha Gibson
04:44
Good to hear. So you mentioned the talking about the experience in class, how was Health
Commons presented to fit in with your curriculum, and how well do you think that your
experience and health comments related to what you were learning
A
Alisha Stahler 04:58
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 3 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
so the point of doing this was to kind of just compare and contrast the difference between
a nurse working in a hospital kind of studying base and a nurse working in a community
kind of setting base. And it was really neat to see how the Augsburg Health Commons
provided more of a community base, and it was provided free and they provided a very
supportive and safe environment, and was very welcoming. And it was definitely not the
medical atmosphere that I was used to. They did things like blood pressure checks, talk to
some of the clients that came there may had respiratory issues I'd seen some people had
some eye and foot issues, it was neat to see how the nursing staff there, and the
volunteers how they all were there to listen and honor each individual that was there. And
they definitely built a rapport with these, these patients or people that were coming there.
And a lot of it was just meeting basic needs that we all kind of take for granted. They
offered socks and diapers, different kinds of toiletries, wipes, underwear, clothing, jackets,
hats, it was neat to see the I went during February, so it was right after the Super Bowl. So
hearing the kind of how a lot of these people that came to the Health Commons, to use
utilize all the support that they give, how they were kind of blocked off during the
Superbowl. So that was kind of challenging, and sad to hear that they were kind of not
able to walk on certain streets during that time. But it was neat to see the NFL had
actually dropped off some jackets. So a lot of the people that were coming into the Health
Commons, were able to get jackets to keep them warm during that cold time. So that was
really, really, really neat to see. And then just seeing the community connections that they
had. And the education that they were giving these patients are the people that were
coming in, it was pretty unique. And then prior to starting before the doors actually open.
One of the the nurses that was leading the health comments received a phone call from a
crisis center regarding an individual who had been coming there for some time. But during
that time, health comments was going under had some construction work going on. And
they had received this call that this individual had not eaten for four days. And they
hadn't seen him and he was pretty nervous about coming into the facility due to the
smaller location at the time. And they had asked the nurse to see if maybe she would kind
of walk around the community to see if they could find them and offer some help that the
health comments was able to provide for these individuals. So I actually had a very unique
experience where I was able to go with that nurse in walk was probably about six blocks
from the Health Commons location and find this individual. And when we found them, I
had stayed back and it was a very safe environment. And the nurse had actually walked
up to this gentleman who was wrapped in a couple of sleeping bags and had his items
around him. And she kind of went up and and stated his name and he peeked out. And I
saw this amazing smile on his face, which she was so surprised to see her. And she had
offered to supply him with some daily needs that the health comments had back at that
location. And so he gratefully accepted that and the nurse and I had walked back and
gathered some supplies for him. And then on the way back, I felt led to purchase a meal.
So we stopped at this location, and I was able to get a few sandwiches for him. So it was
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 4 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
really, really neat to actually walk the street and see some of these individuals that utilize
as the health comments. It's an experience I will always remember and never forget and
just so appreciative of that opportunity.
S
Samantha Gibson
09:21
Thank you for sharing that story. You mentioned how you related to your Health
Commons experience professionally as well as personally. Could you talk a little bit more
about how your experience in Health Commons fit or challenged your expectations in
both of those realms?
A
Alisha Stahler 09:39
Yeah, so it was just neat to see in the hospital setting. I'm so used to the patient
population that's more centered and focused. Whereas coming to volunteer at the health
Commons that's more driven on community based and it's definitely a variety of care and
skill. that's given to a particular population such as the homeless man that was there.
Also, the hospital setting were more focused on treatment and restoring a patient to their
baseline baseline, where the health Commons was more focused on promoting health
through education, and then through the community connections that they offer. And
then giving a lot of the individuals that came opportunities and references for needs that
they may need. The challenging through that is, the difference is that at the health
comments, most of these patients don't have really a medical insurance company that
provides them with as much as a hospital setting does. So a lot of them haven't been
medically diagnosed with things, they don't really receive a lot of preventative health
care, whereas in a hospital setting, most of those patients are receiving preventive care.
They see their primary providers, they have a diagnosis, and they're being treated as
appropriate for their diagnose. So it was really neat to see a group of people come
together at the health comments, and provide care for these people, they individuals that
may not have received care up anywhere else. So the challenge is to we're just seeing just
the need of this within the community at the health Commons. So it was hard to when we
came back to the house comments location and provided for the rest of the individuals
that were there, it was really hard to just give only a certain amount of items to these
individuals or would last longer, so they could provide more within the community. So that
was that was hard to see that. So it really made me want to help and challenged me to
want to do better and, and volunteer more, and things such as this.
S
Samantha Gibson
11:58
You know, thanks for your insight, that story that you told about doing sort of some
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 5 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
outreach to an individual who couldn't come into the health Commons location. I was
wondering how you would suggest that health comments could better accompany people
on their journey of health. And for example, things like doing those outreach services or
adding more hours that they're available?
A
Alisha Stahler 12:27
Yeah, I think that would be a really good idea to do. I think that Augsburg You know, this is
the only opportunity so far through any of my nursing, schooling or my nursing program.
When I did my associates degree we didn't. We didn't do any volunteering like this. In the
past, I've done research and we actually did some outreach. And we're able to go out to
different communities, we did a Somali community where we offered free blood draws.
And we're able to look at these patients to see if they had Hepatitis B, and we were able
to then bring them into the clinic and get them help or educate them. So I think that the
health dogs, Brickhouse Commons could definitely reach out more to doing that. I think
that would be a good idea for them to just open up more opportunities for students for
volunteering. And definitely, with just with classmates that, you know, have this stigma on
these people, I think it was a great opportunity for them to be able to go into the
community and see this, and maybe lose a little bit of their stigma that they have, and try
to push that, you know, disparity away that these will have and actually see them as an
individual and be able to reach out and give them the help that they need and finding the
different references and or different referrals and that are within the community that can
provide help to those individuals.
S
Samantha Gibson
14:01
In line with what you said, how has this experience? Or has this experience changed any
biases that you may have had about homeless or marginally housed individuals?
A
Alisha Stahler 14:13
I think I went in with pretty much an open heart and tried to not be judgmental, but I know
that there's been instances where I might be driving in the car and I'll see a homeless man
standing on the street and I'll get a feeling like Why does he need the money or I had an
instance where I actually helped somebody. And I had filled her gas tank up with gas and I
was actually working on my floor as a nurse and listening to somebody tell a story and it
was pretty much the same kind of similar situation and it turned out to be the same
person. And this individual ended up following the person that she had helped. And in that
situation, the person And actually went to a liquor store. So there is things in life where
people do lead you the wrong way. And that's where that stigma comes. But I think
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 6 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
generally in life that you should be open, and no matter if you're helping them or not, I
think that in life, we should all just provide and not have a bias or a stigma of what these
people are using their money for. But rather than just help these individuals and allow
them to, not all of them are doing that, and some need help. So I think that this has just
opened my eyes that everybody has a story and if we just opened up and not been so not
so judgmental to them, and allow them to get the help that they need. And opening this
community based facilities, such as the health comments will definitely be a good thing,
and to give health care back, and maybe prevent some of the things that are happening
within those individuals.
S
Samantha Gibson
16:03
Sure. From your your experience at Health Commons, can you tell me about some of the
strengths that you heard or learned from the people that you met?
A
Alisha Stahler 16:14
It was quite amazing to see the rapport that the volunteers and the nursing and the
nurses that led kind of instructors in the health Commons, they definitely were building a
good rapport with these patients, they trusted them. Even just walking on the street,
people were saying hi, as we walked by, and they knew this nurse that was leading the
program. And I think that it definitely improves the outcome for these vulnerable, this
vulnerable population who may not receive care elsewhere, or have limited resources. So I
think that it definitely is a strong base to have within a community because of the rapport
that's built, allowing them to come somewhere they feel safe, and they feel a lot of trust.
S
Samantha Gibson
17:05
You mentioned that report. Did you feel as though people felt welcomed into the health
common space? Do you have any suggestions on how we could welcome people better?
S
Samantha Gibson
17:15
During the time I, like I said, I went and there was some construction going on. And I know
that they had mentioned that the numbers were a little bit lower because of the smaller
building. And I think that when they have their construction done with a newer facility
that will be most likely rewarding. I think that just being in the small location that they
were at, at the time, a lot of the individuals that utilize their facility felt a little bit nervous
or felt too enclosed. So I think that finishing up with the construction project that they
had, and opening up a bigger center, I know they had mentioned that they had computers
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 7 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for them to utilize and be able to kind of help them maybe get a job or find other
references. So I think that will definitely be a key thing for continuing to help the
individuals that are utilizing their program.
S
Samantha Gibson
18:15
Yeah, that construction that you mentioned, I believe it's actually supposed to be
completed this fall 2018. And they'll be moving back into the space. Do you have any
other suggestions or hopes for that space?
A
Alisha Stahler 18:30
No, I think just I think this is just a great opportunity that the health comments has led it's
vital service within their community. And it's definitely for a student. It's extended my
knowledge beyond the traditional learning that I've learned in a classroom setting or
within my job at the hospital. So I definitely think that for them to continue with that
connection within that community and partnering, partnering, partnering with other
references to provide a overall wholesome to get the needs that they need for being met
their basic needs, and I think that's going to definitely help them with their health in their
overall well being.
S
Samantha Gibson
19:18
Did your experience at health Commons impact your future career ideals or your personal
goals? Yeah, definitely.
A
Alisha Stahler 19:26
Like I said, I had volunteered for some stuff prior to this class. But as they say, out of sight
out of mind, I haven't volunteered probably in the last three to four years. So this this
actual program that I was able to volunteer at really opened up my heart and just, there's
so much that we can do within our community and I traveled to Minneapolis for this and I
know right here in Rochester, there are so many things that I can do. So it was a great
opportunity and it actually opened up my mind to hopefully In the near future, be able to
volunteer and give back within the community here.
S
Samantha Gibson
20:05
Great, yeah. What was most valuable or useful to you about your experience and health
commons?
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 8 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
20:14
Like I said, I think the most important thing was probably just watching and seeing the
rapport in that relationship that was built for these patients or these individuals. It just, it
was just an amazing experience with that part. And I think, going forward, it definitely is
going to continue to help people and I think that Augsburg should continue programs and
actually even try to see if they there's other programs that they can add to this for their
students.
S
Samantha Gibson
20:49
What do you think Health Commons could do better? Is there anything missing?
A
Alisha Stahler 20:55
I don't know that there's anything missing. Maybe besides having more opportunities to
volunteer at things, like I said, this is the first time I've done any of that. And the first time
I've even heard of a volunteering program like this through the, through the school. So I
think maybe the only thing is finding other opportunities, not only just in the low income
or the homeless, but maybe providing into you know, the alcohol or the drug addiction
and being able to provide for them to would be a neat thing to see. Also, I think it'd be
neat to, you know, a lot of elderly, I see a lot of elderly in the hospital setting that, you
know, struggle struggle with. And they know a lot of them are malnutrition. So I think even
helping that or volunteering to serve at homes or, you know, go into homes, rather than
having people come to them. And it was a great opportunity to be able to actually have
somewhat of an outreach experience when I was there. So I think that sometimes people
don't always come into a facility to get help. But I think allowing you to go to their home
or the street or wherever they're at would be a big impact.
S
Samantha Gibson
22:20
What, if anything, will you take forward with you from this experience?
A
Alisha Stahler 22:28
I think like I said, just taking back and and giving back from that experience, just put that
drive back in me. And knowing that when I see a homeless person now that from the
stories are heard in the facility, in the four hour, I was there probably about four hours, was
pretty amazing. Everybody has a story, and everybody has a situation. And we need to
stop judging on that and see individuals for who they are and honor them for them, and
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler, Page
2018 9 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
not for the situation they're in and being able to provide and and help them in any way
that we can.
S
Samantha Gibson
23:10
Thank you. I know you already kind of told one story that stuck with you. But is there
another another tale of health Commons that really stuck with you from your experience?
A
Alisha Stahler 23:21
Yeah, there was I was able to sit and have comments and kind of hand out some toiletries
and some basic need items. And one of the volunteers that was there has been there, I
believe, for 15 plus years. And she was telling me her story about how she was homeless at
the time and was struggling with just daily needs and finding jobs. And she actually told
the story that the Augsburg health comments actually saved her life. And now she is
giving back by volunteering at that at the facility. And so it was really neat to see
somebody who actually received the help that health Commons gives to these
individuals, and to see how it's changed her life for the better. And she was very, very
grateful for it. And it was really neat to hear her story about it.
S
Samantha Gibson
24:18
That's an amazing story of the community, I think. Yes. Is there any topic that we didn't
talk about or anything you'd like to add?
A
Alisha Stahler 24:29
No, I think that we pretty much just covered our thing there. I think to just the the
donations that the health Commons receives, I think that they can even benefit for more
because there is such a need for the individuals that come. So it was really neat because
our our instructor had said if we felt led to you know, donate any items to the health
comments when we volunteered and I just think that just finding The referrals to find
people to bring in donations to help is probably a key thing. So just reaching out to the
community to get the support for them to run their program.
S
Samantha Gibson
25:11
Great. Thanks for taking some time to talk with me today.
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler,Page
201810 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
A
Alisha Stahler 25:14
Yes, you're welcome. Thanks for having me.
Oral History Interview with Alisha Stahler,Page
201811 of 11
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
... Show more
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
experience and time at Augsburg University. Winston Heckt graduated in 2019 from Augsburg
University. So Winston, thank you for coming today! l appreciate you taking time out of your
day to do this interview. So, in order to start, can you please say your name and where you were
born?
WH: Yeah! My name is Winston Heckt and I was born in Minneapolis.
CE: What are your pronouns?
WH: I use he/him/his pronouns.
CE: Did you grow up in Minneapolis?
WH: No, I grew up in Anoka, Minnesota. So, I was born in Minneapolis because my dad works
at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital-so I was born there-but nope; grew up in Anoka, Halloween
capital of the world. Spooky place. Kind of-pretty conservative/pretty white-kind of area. And
so-as I was kind of bouncing out of that, looking into like where I was going to go for
college-I looked at a couple of other places-
CE: Oh, wait, wait. Do you mind ifwe backtrack a little bit?
WH: Yeah, let's backtrack!
CE: Yeah, yeah!
WH: I'm slipping. Yeah, absolutely.
CE: So, how was your childhood like? You mentioned briefly about it, but growing up in
Anoka?
WH: It was good. Anoka's a good place, I think, for-well okay, I'm kind of a liar.
CE: (laughs)
WH: Well actually, I grew up-like
Minnesota-
technically, the house where I lived is in Andover
CE: Oh.
WH:-which is right next to Anoka. I went to Anoka High School and like middle schools-I
was in the Anoka School District, so I just like to tell for clarity and ease of conversation-I tell
people I am from Anoka. I feel a much tighter bond to Anoka. But, it's a good area because it's
kind of like-well, I mean it's-okay so like-politics and everything aside, just like
geographically, it's you know-it's like real, cusp of suburb and country where like-like I lived
thirty seconds away from a turkey fann.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, just like wide-open spaces. Lots of-you know-wildlife and nature; so like, a great
place for little kids to be-you know-running around and playing outside; that kind of thing. So
like, I had a pretty good like-and also, I was pretty like-I'm mixed heritage: my mom's Black
and my dad's white; and my parents are divorced, so I was pretty much raised by my white
father, so I was pretty much raised white. He kind of had-took kind of-I suppose, a colorblind
approach to things, you know. And he was kind of a conservative dude, so I like didn't like
fully-I didn't necessarily know about-like it wasn't in my-kind of scope of understanding
what was quite so shitty about Anoka. I like knew it on an instinctual level because I am
also-so I am pansexual and Anoka was pretty-a pretty homophobic place. There was-when I
was-it was like a little bit before my time-I was alive I guess, but I was kind of like a young
kid while it was going on-but there was like a string of suicides by like young kids; middle
schoolers, high schoolers. Some who were LGBTQIA community; others who weren't, but were
bullied by people calling them-you know-slurs and all that. (Laughs) So, not a real great place
to be for that kind of thing. So like, that part of myself was something that I had-had kind of
like unknowingly just closed off until I got out of that environment and I was like, Okay, I don't
have to have to-there's so much more to like, who people can be and I can just kind of live life
as I see fit. But so, growing up in Anoka was pretty solid, you know. I had a good time; it wasn't
too bad of a-too bad of a childhood. No.
CE: Mmhmm. Well, that's good! How was your education like there?
WH: It was-I mean jeez, it's public education. I went to public school and so-I mean-well,
it was kind of-it was alright; I was kind of an outsider. I think one because I was kind of a
weird kid and two, because I was one of like-other than my siblings-two Black kids in my
elementary school.
CE: Oh, shit.
2
WH: And like, the other kid had a learning disability so I wasn't even around him all the time
like all the time, right; so most of the time, I was the only Black kid around. And so, I got
like-yeah, people-I was really kind of ostracized and shit by my peers, so I kind of became a
recluse. When my-so, my parents got divorced when I was like-kindergarten or first grade, I
kind of forget-real young and my mom moved into a house that was really close to my dad;
didn't have to switch schools or anything, which was real nice. But she ended up moving to
Arizona partway through my sixth-grade year, and at that point, that was when I switched and
started going through Anoka school and stuff. So, that kind of presented me an opportunity to
like get away from my bullied past and kind of like start fresh, you know? And so, what I did
then was kind of close myself off and keep a low profile and hope to not get bullied and kind of
focused in on school. And so-I mean like, I liked school. It was alright (laughs). Oh jeez; you
know, the crap they teach you. They don't teach you the important stuff. Like, I don't know how
to do taxes; I don't know how to balance a budget; I don't know how to sew-I don't have those
decent skills. The history that they teach is really suspect-I put that in air-quotes (both
laugh)-you know, that kind of crap. So you know, your pretty mainstream education. But like I
think Anoka is a pretty-I'm not sure where they sit in terms of ranking of schools, but I think
it's a pretty solid-like it was a solid place to get an education and more or less, I did okay.
Really kind of the only place-math I was kind of-I was failed. I was left behind as early as
elementary school. Like, I don't know how to do-I can't multiply in my head. I have to do like
the addition the long way, because my third-grade elementary school teacher -whose name I
don't know, maybe it was Larson? It doesn't really matter (laughs)-she was a jerk! She didn't
mean how to like-yeah, and you know right, that's kind of how the school system goes. Instead
of sticking with it and teaching people stuff, it's like, Hey; we gotta move along here so if you
don't learn it in time, it's kind of like hey! Shit out of luck. And then that-I ended up being
okay, but then my academic advisor-somehow, I got lost in the shuffle and before you'd take
Algebra Two, there was like-I think it's called Algebra with Quadratics or something like that.
Well, I didn't take that class because no one told me I had to take that class--or it would be
smart to because it wasn't technically required; just kind of like heavily-it would be smart to
take it. So, I rolled right out of Geometry into Algebra Two without the quadratics crap, so I
didn't know what the hell I was doing! And the teachers I had for that were like the two worst
math teachers in the whole school and so, I barely scraped by. It kind of tanked my GPA and that
kind of put a chip in my shoulder so when I ended up at Augsburg-because of like oohh, you
know-Summa Cum Laude-Summa, is that the highest one? Yeah, it is Summa. So I think
because-perhaps because my academic dreams were dashed in high school, I felt like I had to
compensate in college.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, I'm really getting off.
CE: No!
WH: What did you even ask me? I don't even know what I'm talking about (laughs).
3
CE: No, that is perfect! I mean my net question was just going to ask-can you briefly describe
your high school experience?
WH: Yeah, sure! So, I like-my first year in high school like-I was pretty-so like I said, I
pretty kind of like a recluse when I switched over to Anoka. And slowly-from like seventh to
eighth grade, into ninth grade-kind of-sort of like, come out of my shell and start to feel
myself more and-my ninth grade English teacher and-there's an acting elective; those two
teachers really helped me. Han environment where I felt comfortable to bust out and-you
know-try on myself and be confident. So I kind of went from like-and like still really had a
small core of friends and kind of-like every year, got more confident in myself and all that,
whatever. And by like senior year ofhighschool, like I was-I was Homecoming Royalty and all
that crap.
CE: Oh, wow!
WH: Like, other people tell me that I was cool and popular but like I wasn't-I don't
really-like, what matters is like friends and stuff, and I didn't-I wasn't in with the cool kids
really, like. I was like-oh shoot no; now I don't know how to phrase it. The phrase I had used
kind of ableist language-I was like the lowest-like the threshold from like not cool to cool.
Maybe at the end I was cool, but I like bottom, right; minimal, you know, that kind of crap. So
I'm a lifelong musician and stuff and my band ended up being well-known-kind of-by the end
of it; I think that kind of had to contribute to it. But my god, my high school experience; jeez, I
don't know. I was kind of like-you know, high school is learning how to play the game. You
know, it's like they don't teach-you skills; they don't teach you-you know-super important
stuff, how the world works or how to make a resume or any of that kind of stuff. They just kind
of teach you how to take orders (laughs), you know? So I learned how to take orders. And I
also-by the end-kind of learned that it was kind of bullshit a little bit too; thankfully, I was
aware. I also was a-I played football from third grade until like-through high school. And
Anoka High School's football program-at least while I was there; I think before and after-was
fucked up. Like really kind of-like, sadistic and emotionally manipulative to people and like
just the rigorous-how they pushed our bodies and stuff, and forcing us to weights really hard,
but not really-like they paid lip service to having good form, but it was also go-go-go (snaps)
fingers). Like, they didn't really want you to have good form, so it was kind oflike, nah. Not a
chill place. The football team-a lot of those other guys-like Jesus, those are some of the most
homohobic-like racist assholes, you know, I've encountered (laughs). So, learning how to
like- survive and adapt in that kind of environment and flying under the radar and not-you
know, rub anybody the wrong way-was kind oflike-that was one of the more valuable things
I got out of high school, as screwed up as that is. Like that was something that these children are
being put through but-yeah, taught me the skills necessary in those regards. But I don't
know-I really liked English. I liked art stuff. I was-I've played the saxophone since I was in
sizth-I guess I don't really these days, but sixth grade through high school-and Anoka has a
really good music program, so that really nice, right, and we were good. You know, kind of took
it for granted how nice it is to get a break in the middle of a day and just like be with a bunch of
people and make music together-you know?-in this very collaborative, group setting. That's
something that I kind of miss, you know? Yeah.
4
Oh jeez, I'm trying to think what else-what
I was a pretty- I was a pretty dorky kid.
else was high school like, you know? Yeah,
CE: (laughs).
WH: I wasn't really a rule breaker; like-with
crap, I learned how to play by the rules.
high school and the football team, and all that
CE: Yeah.
WH: And then-where the rules were kind of bull-you know, especially by the end, like my
senior year where I first started drinking, smoking, and staying out late and all that kind of
stuff-oh yeah, badass over here!
CE: (laughs).
WH: But like yeah, you know; you get used to people telling you like, "This shit's the worst
thing on the planet! You do this shit and it's just terrible for you!" and you do it, and you're okay.
You know, you're fine. It's not like God's greatest gift or anything; it's not like-I don't want to
glorify that kind of crap. But it's-it is what it is, you know? And so you're like, okay. Maybe
these people-they're full of shit about that; what else are they full of shit about, you know?
CE: A gateway drug to knowledge.
WH: Exactly (both laugh).
CE: So then, how did you come to Augsburg University? Like, what was your college process
like? Why did choose-?
WH: Yeah. It was kind of by-like in retrospect, it's really kind of like-I really just kind of like
fell into Augsburg. I've been makirig movies since I was kid and I knew I wanted to film school
since I was like a teenager-a young teen. So it was kind of a matter of like-so like I said, I
looked-I knew I wanted to go to film school, so I was looking at places. I don't know, didn't
really try-like UCLA or NYU, or those; I didn't even consider them. I didn't feel like I had the
academics to get in or kind of, like, wherewithal. It was kind of between Augsburg and DePaul,
in Chicago-and I got accepted into both. The only reason I went to Augsburg was like-they
gave me more financial aid; it would have cost me more to go to DePaul. But also-you know, I
visited DePaul and Chicago's cool-and maybe one day-but at that time, it was just-it's all so
tall and there's so many people; I was very overwhelmed and I wasn't sure-I was like, I don't
know; maybe sticking in Minnesota for college was more my tempo. So, Augsburg then was
kind of like the only place I applied to. There aren't a lot of place that have a full-four year film
program in the state; that's kind of unique. Like, the UMN doesn't have one.
CE: Yeah.
5
WH: They are film majors there, I've since then learned but people build their own major, and
they didn't advertise-like, I didn't know that was an option so I was like, okay; I can't go to the
U, because I can't do what I want to do there. So, Augsburg had-they had a film program that
used actual film, like true celluloid. So, I went down for a visit and I liked it alright and they left
me in and they gave me decent financial aid so I like, Okay; guess it's Augsburg! So I ended up
enrolling at Augsburg.
CE: Yeah. What were your expectations?
WH: Well, you know (laughs)-the whole 'big city feel in a small campus,' was something that
was kind of pushed on me and like knowing it was a very liberal space and like-knew enough.
You know, 2015-1 was just starting to become more conscious like-you know, I'm thinking
about Black Lives Matters, it's happening-and Eric Gamer, specifically, that sticks in my mind
as kind of like-I mean like, nobody deserves to get killed by the police like that; but that was
like so-that was the first one I encountered so blatantly-this person did nothing wrong
deserving of being killed for it, right-that kind of started to change my trajectory. I was
interested in-you know, cool, I would go to this place and it's like one of more friendly spots;
it's like the most diverse private school in Minnesota; like really friendly to the LGBTQIA
community and like, okay; cool! Expecting it to be this haven of open-mindedness and just
like-whatever. I was expecting-I thought the film classes-they really sold it as a hands-on,
small-port community; more collaborative than competition-based-it was kind of how things
were presented to me. So, those were kind of my expectations. You know, and there's also just
the cultural expectations at large of what college is supposed to be for people-in pop culture
and what not. It was like okay; I guess this what it will be.
CE: What are the pop culture representations?
WH: Well, you know, partying and all that kind of crap-not that I did too much of that crap.
But yeah, you know-eat ramen, that kind of-you know, that kind of 'college-student' kind of
crap. It was kind of like all I understood about it. My older sister-two years older than me, so
she was already-yeah, two years older than me, went to the U, so she-I had some idea of what
college was like; but in retrospect, could have asked her more about it before going into it on my
own.
CE: So when did you enter? 2015?
WH: Yeah, so fall of2015 was when I first came to Augsburg.
CE: And you graduated spring of2019?
WH: Yeah.
CE: Oh. So, did Augsburg fulfill these expectations you had?
6
WH: I mean·(laughs), yes and no. Certainly as a haven for liberals, but like what that means
compared to like what is promised-you know-are kind of two different things. And like
also-I mentioned Eric Gamer-like I was just becoming aware of just like-where my-you
know, I knew I was Black but fully understanding the weight of that and like what that means
and like, having not really been around alot of other Black people-or anybody that wasn't
white, really-· was kind of like-Augsburg was a time where I became racially conscious;
politically conscious, you know. And so-I mean it definitely kind of fulfilled my-I mean I was
open-minded enough to receive it, you know, what Augsburg had to offer me. I mean just in the
first couple days of like, welcome weekend or whatever, I was exposed to a lot of things that I
had never even heard about and now, they're just kind of like pretty standard (laughs) stuff. You
know, being conscious of pronouns and things-you know, I don't think too terrible hard to start
listening and being mindful of. So, that was lit; like I am glad I went to Augsburg. I'm probably
going to end up shitting on Augsburg hereCE: (laughs).
WH:-quite a bit, or things about this place-but it was a good place for me. I'm glad I came
here. I mean, who knows what would happen if anything else happened. Like, if I went to
DePaul-who I was or where I would be. But like-nah, this was a really integral part of where I
ended up these days. So like-the film program was like (sighs) was ultimately-not-leaves
a
lot-left a lot to be desired. I kind of kept waiting for like-because like, there aren't alot of film
majors at Augsburg and so-a lot of the film classes are-it's really not until you're like an
upperclassman that you're in film classes that are just film majors, and even then, that's kind of
rare. So most of the time, it was like-it'd be these business-like the first class you take,
Film-whatever-,
it was like thirty-something people or whatever, and maybe ten of us were
film majors. By far, most of the people were like, Okay; I'll take an easy credit where I can just
sit and watch movies. You know what I mean? So, it was kind of disappointing because I wanted
to just jump in and let's get rolling here! Like, I don't think chemistry majors are sitting in
classes where it's mostly art students that are in their introduction to like what their program is
going to be. I mean (snaps fingers), you kind of hit the ground running and it's not really like
how things happen at Augsburg-which is, you know, alright; forces you to get creative and
· work-learn to work with not a lot. But I wish there was more a-yeah, more of a focus on like
(laughs), getting cameras in people's hands and getting them to make stuff. You know, you can
sit in a room and read theory and make movies-you know, that's important stuff if you're going
to study film and movie making and to be-like the best thing that Augsburg's film program did
for me was just-I always loved movies; my whole family loves movies-like my mom was a
film major and I have been making movies since I was kid. So like, a lot of love there. But
like-Augsburg-my
time here; really kind of the program-it's still-really kind of hit home
the importance of being, you know, conscious of the impact of shit that you make because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whether you're consciously thinking of these things or not, the impact
is going to be what people take away from it; it's there. You know, like death to the
author-doesn't necessarily matter if you-if that's your intent and purpose going into it because
if that's what people are taking away-so I'm glad I learned that and yeah-you know, movies
are good fun. I'm not trying to make it into Hollywood or some shit; I don't have an interest in
that-that kind of making movies. I like to do it-you know, with friends; getting around, having
7
a good time. You know, the pleasure is in the process for me and like-I haven't a lot of
experience in a more professional setting, but I've had a couple. They were exciting and they
were kind of fun; but you know, it wasn't like how I like to make them. Where was I going when
I started with that thoguht? Jeez. (laughs) Film program-yeah they-my dream film program
would be you mix-because most of the time, whether it was a theory class or a production
class-really, I think it should just-like, my best semester for film was like when I was taking a
production class and a theory class. They weren't related to each other-the professor's weren't
working together-but you know, I was taking what I was learning in one class and applying it to
the other and it's like-the projects I was working on for both of them-it was the best, you
know; to be learning what's going on behind the stuff and kind of like-how to apply it and get
out and make stuff. So I think from day one, they should be getting cameras-even if it's just
like crap camcorders; it doesn't really matter if it's 4k or whatever, if it looks nice-just get
people conscious of what they're doing with moving images and just get them making stuff they
want to make. You know (snaps fingers), all the time just go, go, go.
I also (clears throat)-my degree is in film and communication studies and that's because
about a month before class started, I got an email from the director of the Honors Program,
Phillip Adamo-former director of the Honors Program-and it was just like, Hey! You know,
you're academically interesting; you kind of got maybe what we're looking for and you should
think about being in the Honors Program! And like-because like, I didn't think I was some kind
of burnout or anything, but because my GPA had been kind of tanked from those math classes I
took in high school-seeing myself as a Honor student, you know, is like wow; the highest
academic rigor. That's not how I saw myself. I knew I was smart but, you know, being smart and
being good at school (laughs) are not always the same thing; so, I kind of ignored it. You know;
whatever. And then, he sent me another email-wait, I think the deadline passed for applying.
It's like, Okay, you know, I guess it's not going to happen; no skin off my back. And then they
send me another email saying, Hey! Even though it's after what we said, it's not too late if you
want to! And I was like. Damn! They emailed me twice? Why not! and I was like, Sure, I'll do it.
And so, that began (laughs) my illustrious career in the Honors Program and really-that kind
of-big part of what radicalized me, I think-my experience in the Honors Program in my time
here at Augsburg at large.
The Honors Program, your first year, you take at least two classes-I think you can take
more if you want if you take-I don't know if they're still calling them-when I was doing it, it
was Scholar Citizen and Liberating Letters.
CE: Yes.
WH: So yeah (laughs). And so, that Honors class was the first class I ever took in college;
Monday-Wednesday-Friday, eight am.
CE: Scholar Citizen?
WH: Scholar Citizen with Larry Crockett, at the time. And Larry-he was a liberatrian and you
know (laughs). But okay, my perspective going into that class right-like I too, at the time,
didn't know-I didn't know anything about class consciousness or really what capitalism was or
any of these other things. I knew-because my dad was more conservative, I knew Democrats
8
were shit; but I also wasn't totally-you know, rocks for brains (both laugh), so I knew
Republicans were ass too so-at the time, the appeal of liberatarism-Larry and I were on a
similar wavelength, I think, in terms of what things should be. Me being eighteen and him being
middle-age, plus.
CE: Ancient.
WH: But like-at the time-like, that class was kind of a shit show. But similar to-kind of like
how I left Anoka and really opened myself up and reflect on my time there and really started to
realize how screwed up things were there-similar kind of thing in this class. I knew it was wack
(laughs), and some of the people in there were wack, but I don't know-I still do genuinely think
like in a vacuum, what Larry was trying-what I think he was trying to do-at least what he
stated what he tried to get people to do what to get people to question their beliefs and you know,
think critically about everything and think about different newspoints. And you know, that's all
good and fine and dandy. I think his really kind of main point-I don't know if it changes year to
year-but he was really about like-my time with him was about the danger of ideology and
becominging like an ideologue and stuff and stuff; it's like, you can't escape being
non-ideological. Being non-ideological is, in itself, an ideology; you can't really escape that. So
it was kind of like-Larry, himself, kind of became the example of the shortcomings of getting
too blind about one's ideology. He was only nice to me; he wasn't not so nice to others,
particularly the women of color in those classes when it came down to grade. But, for me, that
was the first-so that was the first class I took. And that semester, with all my other classes, got
4.0's in everything and I was like, Oh shit! Holy fuck! And it was because those classes were
super I think and you know, (laughs) I wasn't taking Chemistry 101 or whatever; you know, the
hard stuff where it's like a certain percentage of people will fail this class, bar and all-that
bullshit.
But so-being in the program in the spring, the second class, Liberating Letter, was
taught by Bob Graven who became my academic advisor and was kind of a gateway into-like if
I didn't take that class, I don't think I would have become a communications major. I was
thinking about-I knew I wanted to have a backup plan because I didn't know what the hell I
was doing. I knew I wanted to go into film school because I knew that I wanted-like I just liked
movies so much and have been making them so much, and at that time, I had the naive belief that
if you got a job doing what you love, it would be chill. That's not the case (laughs), but that's
what I thought. So like, I ultimately knew that if I didn't try-if I didn't go to film
school-whether I ended up making movies or not, or even being involved in any of that kind of
stuff-I'd always regret it so you know, I got to do this. So I was like-I knew I needed to have
something other than film and I knew I could pull it off because film was one of the smaller
majors on campus. I didn't end up taking any business classes (laughs), but I think I was like a
business minor for my first two semester, or at least my second-I think my first semester I was
just a film major and I think my second semester I was like, Maybe I should take some business
classes; that's an easy minor. But then I took that class with Bob-and he was in the
communications department; a communications guy-and I really like that class and his style or
whatver and so I was like, Okay; maybe communications! And so, I got into it and so, my
sophomore year was when I started actually taking classes and really enjoyed it. Communication
is a good-you know, everything is communication.
9
CE: Yes (both laugh).
WH: That's what they teach you. And it's-you know, it's something that we do all the time so I
think it's easy-like why I would take classes-that would be like taking a class on breathing;
it's kind of bullshit, right? It's pretty self evident! But it's like, that's not the case; and it's like a
discipline that mixes-kind of like, psychology and sociology; kind of flavor and so-I'm
curious about people and how they work, and stuff like that so it was a good fit for me. Yeah.
What else am I going to say-you got-that's a solid break. I saw you write something
down-you have a question?
CE: No, I mean-one thing I just want to ask you too is that you mentioned the Honors
Program. I just-hold on, let me-so I guess, can you describe one highlight and difficulty of
every year you had? Freshmen year, you briefly mentioned it was really impactful on your end,
but just like-I guess were the most memorable highlights every year and maybe ohhh [editor's
note: not so much]?
WH: Oh, good question. Jeez. I think probably-my first year of college, definitely the hardest
to think of a low-light. I had my least levels of commitment-well, no, that's pretty easy. During
welcome weekend, they had these-you know, they break you into these neighborhoods. You
know, force people into settings where they force people to get to know people; you know, team
builder-kind of pit-the-neighborhood-against-each-other kind of stuff and so, they had this
kind of obstacle course thing-these inflatable obstacle course thing in Murphy Square and my
team was down a person. So I was designated, go-through-twice person and so-we ended up
losing (both laugh). Anyways, later we-maybe it took like an hour, I don't know-it's over,
time has passed; we're like done, walking back, and I was like, Oww, my wrist is kind
of-feeling like-you know, not sprained; what am I trying to say? You know, you just like jam
it; kind oflike eesh [editor's note: noise of pain]. You know, let that heal up over a couple of
days. So I'm like, you know-okay, I'll wait this one out and like, a week goes by; a week and a
half and like, okay. It's not getting any better and it's not getting any worse; it really didn't hurt
that bad. It really just like-it really just kind of-really hurt when I rotated my wrist and there
was kind of like a clacking sound so I was like, Okay; maybe I should get it checked out by a
professional. And by the time I ended up sitting down with a doctor, I think a couple of weeks
had passed and so I go in, I tell him my symptoms, and he like presses his hand up against my
wrists and has me rotate it, and there's no clacking. And so like-he's like, Yeah. In ten seconds,
this guy had diagnosed [that] I tore the ligament in my wrist somehow-it's actually like a
common injury for golfers and I guess normallyCE: (laughs), I'm sorry, that's so funny.
WH:-(laughs) I just remember him telling me that and like, fuck golf, but he was amazed
because normally, it's pretty painful-it's like something you notice. It's something you like, oh
huh. But for the life of me, I didn't-like, there wasn't a moment I was going through the
obstacle course and I like landed-caught myself and said, Ohh rough, jeez. That's what I did it!
It was afterward I was like, Oh, I must have screwed it up there. And like, if I had gone in right
away, they could have just like put me in an arm's cast and it would have healed itself up. But
10
because I had waited too long, it was like too damaged and so, they had to take membrane from
the top of wrist-like extra membrane-and tie together a new ligament. So I was like in a
cast-from like November until like-I think I had it off before class was out, so like March or
April.
CE: Wow.
WH: So like, most of the year (laughs). Kind of a bummer. I supposed that was probably the
lowlight-maybe living in Urness. Urness sucks. Augsburg's Residence Life Department-what
they force students to do with the meal plan crap is just like ridiculously expensive and just kind
of like-sus [editor's note: suspect]. The buildings are not great; probably moldy and all that
kind of crap (laughs).
CE: Yeah
WH: So that wasn't good.
CE: Urness is the freshmen dorm, right?
WH: Yes. Urness is the freshmen dorm-first year dorm. Except there was so many first years
for me, that there was spillover. So some of the first-years lived in Mort but I was unlucky and I
was up in Urness. And I guess a highlight-hmm. Honestly, maybe it would be my time in the
program because there was really-those classes anyways were really just-heady, thought-kind
of question stuff, so that was really kind of up my alley. Philosophy-stuff. So you know,
yeah-real easy to show up and be active when it's a topic you care about. Sophomore year, the
lowlights get easier.
CE: (laughs) Oh.
WH: It's 2016, so like the whole presidential election, you know. That was like another
radicalizing force in my life-everything going around with that. I like-like election night, I
found out my mom had just left an abusive-what I found out that night was an abusive
relationship. Like, sneak out of the house and shit. So I went up to one of the local smoke spots
where stoners go and like-when I left, Hillary was up big and then, we like got there and sat
and my mom called me. And I find all this out, have a conversation, we walk back, and I walk
back and by that time-maybe an hour had passed?-and like, Trump was for sure going to win
at this point and it was like Aww, fuck. So like, things change (laughs), things change. That was
kind of a big awakening, kind of, for me. And also, that was part of my lowest points as a film
major. I was just kind of feeling-like those classes that I took, I wasn't too interested in; I was
just kind of feeling like-not quite out of place; out of place isn't quite right, but kind of just
like-I don't want to like; I don't know. You just need a camera and ideas and you go out and
make a movie; that's all you need. But like, Augsburg's film equipment and all that stuff isn't the
most robust; you know, it's pretty, kind of, scrappy, which is kind of cool; I like that vibe. But so,
yeah-it was like scrappy stuff and like-a couple of-I liked some of the film professors but
some of the other ones I was just like-they weren't great. It's one thing to know what you're
11
doing, and it's another thing to teach what you do; and so, I just like jeez. What am I doing?
These classes aren't that great; I don't really feel like I'm doing that great in them. And that was
the only year-that was the year I got a B? Yeah, that was like the only semester I got anything
lower than a 4.0 was that year. Which is like-I don't know, I had somehow-I just kind of like
felt-because going into college, especially as a film major, GPA doesn't fucking matter. And it
still doesn't out of college; nobody asks me about my GPA, it's not getting me anything. Grad
school is maybe a different story but like, I didn't really care; you know, I'm just going to give it
my best and the GPA I get is the GPA I get. And then that first semester I got that 4.0 and then,
the second semester I got a 4.0 and it's like, let's see how long I can keep this going. So by the
end of my time, I really cared only because it was like, Geez. I made it this far; is it going to be
this class that finally does it? That would be kind of like-you know, all the prior struggle would
then be kind of like-pointless or whatever. I think what else-what else is sophomore year?
That was kind of a rough year.
Oh fuck. I mean jeez, I lived in a floorhouse that year too with a bunch of other people in
the Honors Program, and that was just like not a good living arrangement. A floorhouse is
fourteen people sharing a-almost like their own wing of a dorm. You have one shared living
space; two big bathrooms with multiple stalls-think like public-bathrooms looking kind of
bathrooms-and then like a big old kitchen with two large refrigerators and like, a giant stove
and a whole bunch of cabinet space and stuff. If it's the birds-eye view of the floorplan, the
bathrooms are in the center of the donut and the kitchen is in the lower-right and the living,
communal space is right above the kitchen and the rest of it-kind of c-shaped-was where the
rooms are. And there were only two single rooms; everybody else had to have a roommate and
so like-just living with that many people and just sharing all of that-because it was a shared
communal space and I had a roommate in my room as well-I just didn't have-it was very rare
you had any kind of actual alone time in a space like that. And that is something I value and
really need, so that just kind of takes its toll after awhile.
Also, I don't want to come at people too much, but I was the only Black-no, that's
not-Briana was also in there, jeez! But she was smart; she was never there. She lived there; she
slept there; but other than that, she was never in there and that was the best thing anybody could
have done. And Sam-jeez. But he also-my RA [editor's note: Resident Advisor]-he was
never there either (laughs). He was-that was good. He was a good RA. Anyways (phone
ringing in background), everybody else was white. White (emphasis on h); you know, that kind.
So you know-it was that point in my life where-especially after the election-I like
to--discuss, debate-I like to talk about things; I don't shy away from that. Kind of like, coming
into differences of opinions; conflicts on things with like people that like-you know, we're all
liberal; we're all Augsburg liberal, kind of "bubble" was the buzzword of that time-and that's
when I started to see where the cracks in that are and it's like-it's not enough to be-like being
liberal isn't really all that great of a thing to be. Right, it's the whole, vague progressivism calls
for diversity and inclusion that don't have any analysis for power dynamics or hierarchy or
structures. And like, the other people that lived there were liberal so like-I like-yeah, living
with them and bouncing ideas off of them and stuff also contributed-I was like okay. So I am
not like-maybe I'm not a liberal, right. Because going into Augsburg, I was like, Okay, maybe I
can be liberal. Like after my first year I was like, Okay, chill. After that year, I was like, Okay. I
am definitely not a conservative but I am like, you know; there's something beyond all of this. I
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had also read-maybe
States.
a highlight of that year, truthfully-is
a Peoples History of the United
CE: By Howard Zinn?
WH: It was-yeah, by Howard Zinn. After I graduated from high school, my mom-in my grad
party, my mom gave it to me. She was like, "Now that you've got your public education, get
educated," you know. And she never read it-I don't know how it got on her radar, but
yeah-one of the best gifts she gave me because that really kind of exposed-I like finished
reading it around the time the election happened too. It was like a lot of things folded into each
other and happened in rapid succession there where like-I kind of just started to broaden my
scope even further.
Junior year (exhales). Junior year was rough. Only surpassed by senior year by how hard
it was.
CE: Yeah.
WH: I like-had personal stuff going on in my life that sent me down a deep, deep depression
and so-right, struggling through that and being a student-that shit ain't easy (laughs). And I
also-so like, we entered that floorhouse; we all were friends-several people were dating each
other-
CE: Oh, no!
WH: Big, big yike. And-by the end of that-I don't think anybody-nobody was still together
and a lot of friendships-we definitely weren't all collectively still friends; people still had
friends but things kind of splintered. My junior year had all this-I kind of lost the friends I
gained as a first year in college and had all this other crap going on, so that was kind of rought.
I'm trying to think of a highlight-yeah, that's easy! So like junior year, that's when I was
having that semester when I was taking both those film classes and so-I was feeling
academically, at the time. I had some of my best film classes and that's when I like first-the
more professional set was that spring; like really cool.
And then I worked for Residence Life that year. Let's talk about that-if we're talking
about the history of Augsburg, we got to talk about what that perspective is like; get that in the
book. That's a crap institution to work for and they treat their workers like ass and that was when
like-I really-yeah, you know, it's funny. People think-the pop culture of what college is like
is that it's full of these hippie Marxist professors that tum people into commies and like really
(laughs), I did end up that way but it was not because I had-well I had one-but for the most
part, I did not have hippie, communist professors. It was because there were liberals who still
believe in capitalism, and capital relations, and work relations, and power dynamics and kind of
slow, incrementalism, white moderate crap, but want put that ribbon of diversity on there; you
know. So Residence Life was like that; Residence Life was a weird job. It was like-most people
weren't white, which was really nice actually; that's the only job I ever had that was like that. So
that was really chill (laughs). The only good thing about it probably. But like, they pay
you-they pay you half in a stipend/discount on your housing and then half in bi-weekly
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paychecks. The housing stipend only is enough-unlike pretty much every other RA I've talked
to from higher academic places, like the University of Minnesota-other friends I've had who
were RA's and stuff-they all had free room and board. You know, a pretty standard, kind of
like, Why the hell else would you be an RA-kind of thing? That's the deal there. Not at Augsburg
(laughs). You get free room and board if you are in RA in a first year dorm-in Urness; but you
still have to pay for a meal plan, especially because Urness doesn't have any kind of
cooking-thing. There's a 'kitchen' on the first floor that's like a really, kind of, rinky-dink-it
would really be a struggle to like to feed oneself like fully using the Urness kitchen.
So, I worked in Mort-the second, kind-of cheapest place to be an RA, only a couple
thousand more than Urness. So like, even then, the amount of money that was given to me for
my housing was equal to the amount that I had to pay for housing on top of that-so it kind of
cancelled itself out-no wait! It's even worse than that! The amount of money I got in stipend
for housing, plus the paychecks-combined
with how much I had to pay to live there for the rest
of the year--cancelled each other year. So I essentially worked for free but also, lived for free. It
was kind of the trade there. But like, I also had to still have a meal plan even though there are
kitchens in Mort; they still force you to buy into that kind of crap and like-it's just kind of one
of those-really when I started to realize the absurdity and like, What are people even doing?
Kind of organizational structure-like how that kind of business practice works-as an RA, we
were pretty-you know, the boots-on-the-ground-with
the residence. You know, I lived with
these people. My personal philosophy was that like-Residence Life, they wanted you to be like
everybody's best friend and like hitting people up all the time-and especially in Mort, when it
tended to be upperclassmen-that's
not really what people wanted. People wanted to be left
alone; do their own thing and study or whatever. It was kind oflike, I'm here if you need me but
like-they didn't want a babysitter. I didn't want to babysit grownass people older than me so
(laughs). So they had that; they had weekly, nightly programming of activities and things that
like-none of the residents-just a small handful of residents go to; but by-and-large, nobody
was interested in or go to. We're openly mocked and like-we all thought it was kind of crap; all
the other RA's, and even some of the other professional staff, you know. If you got them to be
more comfortable enough with you, they would admit it was kind of bullshit; but because that
was the mandate from the top-down, we had to keep doing this shit, and just like wasting money
and all of our time on crap that like-nobody wanted!
And so much of it was like-when I started at Augsburg, they started this thing that was
like "Green by 2019." By the time, it was supposed to be a carbon-neutral campus and I
think-maybe I'm remembering it wrong-but I think a part of that was like, trying to-I don't
know if they were trying to be paper free, but really ditch that and-ahh. The amount of paper I
wasted as an RA-the flyers we had to print over and over again for things these things that
happened every week but it was like a new topic or a different date, we would have to print out
the same thing over and over again with just like different words typed on it and just like-all
just a waste.
And I did the math and-not including the block stipend-like the discount-the amount
you get paid week-to-week-how
much they pay you versus how many hours they expect you to
work-I think I was making like-it was less than five bucks an hour. It was nuts; it just was like
total crap. And this was when Minneapolis-that year as an RA was when the fifteen dollar
minimum wage was passed here and so like-they didn't just jump from seven-whatever to
fifteen, but like-people are starting to raise it. So it was just really crap and exploitative and
14
they just pray on these young people that don't know better, you know? Don't know-want to
trust (laughs) these people-that buy into the culture of Augsburg and all that. But yeah; so that
really kind of-by the time I was done as an RA, I was just like really, really over it and was
already-like I wasn't a socialist yet but I was starting to get there.Big part because of Residence
Life. And even like liberals were like-Alright-that's
when I remember about starting to hear
jokes about late capitalism. It was a pretty-that's the thing; everybody was aware about how
crappy it was, so people would like-our bosses included would make jokes about, "You know,
that's capitalism!" but it's kind of like-we all know we can make these changes; we have ideas
for how it could be better; and we to pitch it, you know? We really tried to convince people that
we shouldn't be doing this nightly programming and they just wouldn't hear us out-wouldn't
listen to us. Kind of crap. And they know-I think it's honestly part of their business model. It
really is a shit job and it's really burnt out because you ended up working more hours
than-you're supposed to really. I really didn't do that, because-so much of it was kind of
bullshit.
Prior to going into this, I was kind of in my head like, What am I going to say about my
time at Augsburg and what college is and big takeaways and it's kind of like-one of the big
takeaways is [editor's note: college] is a time when you figure out what needs to get done and
what shit you can let go, you know? What can slide. Like priorities. What matters (laughs). So, I
would prioritze the stuff that mattered so I could still have a work-life balance, which was
already wack because I lived where I worked. That's just RA-I was always on the job as soon
as I stepped out of my room. And I had roommates-like I was technically always working.
Yeah, it was kind of just like-by the end, you could really just see through the crap and knew
(laughs) it would be better if the people actually doing the work-it was the people deciding how
the work was done.
CE: Now, senior year!
WH: Senior year. Senior year was a real rough one for several reasons. One of the bigger ones
being it was-in October-I think it was before the stuff went down in the Honors Program, or
around the same time-that the UN [editor's note: United Nation's] Climate Report came out
and said, Hey, we got a decade to figure this shit out or otherwise, bye-bye human species! And
that-I am still grappling with that. You know, climate grief or whatever they call it; yeah, that
shit is rough. Real existentialist threat there (laughs). So, that had me spiraling and then
yeah-the Honors Program. I wasn't just in the program; sophomore through senior years I was
in a kind of student-advocate role. They called us the House Presidents and split us off into four
houses-kind of like Harry Potter but like, not really. They didn't really mean anything; my first
year they kind of did because they had monthly meetings which were mandatory-you had to
show up so you actually planned stuff and did things. But after that year, enough people
complained so they were like, Okay, people are sick of this; these meetings won't be mandatory
anymore. So participation dropped and I am kind of too blame, because I was technically in
charge of that shit for three years and never really did-you know, I could have done a lot more
and help foster a community and get shit going. I just didn't, really. But so, I was one of the
co-presidents of Griffin House, which is the events house and I was also on the-so my first year
in the program was the director's first year as director and my sophomore year-after some
complaints about Larry Crockett-I think mostly Crockett, but I think also some other-yeah,
15
definitely some other professors in the program being kind of racist or sexist or x,y,z-they got
this diversity committee going and so I was like, shit; alright, I'll join. So that's why I was also
on the diversity committee (phone ringing in background) and so my sophomore year was mostly
talking to people about what they wanted. Junior year was mostly about coming up with plans
and a proposal for what the program could do to be better.
And then senior year, things kind of imploded (laughs) because-so, there were
complaints about Larry Crockett and the diversity thing was created and that first class that he
thought-enough people were like, This is a fucking problem that he got taken out of the class;
so he wasn't teaching it anymore after my sophomore year-my first year as a House President.
Then Phil taught it-the reason Crockett taught that class in the first place was because it was his
pride because Crockett was a former director, so it was one of his projects. It made sense to a
have a new director teaching this class and say, Yay! It's not Crockett-you know, we're in good
hands! Well, it turns out we weren't in good hands (laughs). Phil Adamo likes to play devil's
advocate and he's like a-racist, sexist, ableistjerk. Made fun of people with disabilities; really
insensitive. I never had a class with him, so I'm not-my first hand experience with Phil is a
limited in the scope outside of-in terms of race and personal decorum, so those are other
people's stories to tell. But my experience with him was like-he didn't really end up doing
anything while he was director. So like, the program is a beast and it's very illusive and no one
really knew how it worked, except for some of the student staff that worked for the
program-the Honor's Desk-so he really relied on them to figure it out. And it made sense for
the first couple years but then he never really ended up taking the reigns over-so that was kind
of a problem. He, under the guise of 'democratic'-you
know, "I'll let the people speak and be in
charge of the good!"-and I'm glad he did, it helped contribute to why he's not in charge of the
program anymore, you know (laughs )-he kind of set up his own demise. So with the diversity
committee, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to get on this! He was like, Oh; you students
who don't really know what the hell you're doing-you figure it out and tell me what I got to do
and I'll do it! So, things never really got done and people shuffled in and out-and then when
things got done, because he was top dog, he got to take credit for the big strides the program is
taking when he's not doing any of the work.
But in that class Crockett was taken out of, Phil-the year before, my junior year-so
part of it was criticized for being too white, too male in his curriculum. And so, Phil comes in
with a very liberal, very surface-level identity of, Okay! We're going to come in and diversify it
up and all this yadda, yadda crap. And so, he's teaching James Baldwin-which is good right,
because people ought to be reading Baldwin-but so, this is James Baldwin we're talking about
here so the n-word in his book. Was it the The Fire Next Time Both Years?
CE: Yes.
WH: Okay (laughs). Both years, he says the n-word. Like, he says the slur-not just the-like
the actual slur. And (laughs) students in my junior year-I wasn't fully in the loop but people
were like, Hey, that's not fucking cool, and talked to him about it and he's like, Hey okay. Kind
of the understanding of lesson learned; won't do that again. Kind of weird that like this
near-retirement person has to learn this lesson now, but okay; not going to happen again and
that's what matters. But like-he didn't learn shit! So he comes along the very next year and
same kind of problems and he's trying to pull this devil's advocate bullshit, "Isn't it giving to the
16
word to be afraid to say it?" and that kind of crap. Academic freedom was what he tried to hide
behind. But really, it was about what kind of classroom environment are you going to have, and
is it really safe for the diverse range of students that Augsburg calls its bread and butter? You
know, they put it all in the marketing materials that this is a good place to be but, (laughs)
really-in my time here, it kind of became clear they just care about getting asses in seats;
numbers in books; and faces on marketing materials. When it comes to the actual analysis of
power dynamics and relations and how these actual-how racism actually works and is upheld
and things like that, the liberal critique is not enough to actually take these things down. It's too
focused on individualistic and personal responsibility and that kind of crap (laughs).
So, that happened on a Tuesday and I found out-did I find out the next day then?
Wednesday? Maybe I found out Tuesday because I was a student leader-as a House President,
students start coming to the other presidents and we start to get filled in the loop that-this is
super wack, I don't want to come to class; what the fuck-so we felt like we had to do
something. Felt isn't even the right word; we had to do something. So, Wednesday we were like,
Okay. We know something happened-we know it happened so we're going to do something
about it. So, we sent an email to everybody in the program and Thursday a couple of us-not me,
but a couple of people-went to his classroom to monitor the situation and make sure people
were okay and talk to them. And he really exploded and like-got really defensive and
aggressive and hostile. And like Phil-he's a really good-he's a really good lecturer. He's a
very good orator; very good with words. He's a good speaker; he's got that charisma on a
face-value, so he uses that in personal relationships so like-he can kind of gaslight you,
manipulate you, and tum situations on their head-shot I don't want to bounce the table-so it's
very hard then, in retrospect, to say, "Oh, he did this," because it's so subtle and so whatever
that-having documentation or video evidence or audio is really kind of the only way-you have
to be there and hear it out to really get what was going on. So he got recorded and stuff and he
freaked out.
That Friday then-because that happened on a Thursday-, the class was suspended.
Campus administration finds out me, and the other House Presidents, and people that had
stepped in-people that were in the class-met with a couple of-I remember the Dean of
Students; Chief Diversity Officer; and like-who other?
CE: Vice PresidentWH: Yeah, the Vice President of Student Affairs. Not like the top-top dogs, but right, top people.
You know, we felt the meeting went well; they were very distraught-visibility distraught-by
what happened, and they were sympathetic and very much on our sides. We agreed on next
steps-like, he wasn't going to teaching the class anymore but we weren't going to cancel the
class. We were going to find a professor for the class that students could all rally behind-who
they enjoyed, who could then take over the rest of it and stuff. One of the other complaints he
had-they didn't get to it yet, but one of the texts that was down the road for the class was really
Islamophobic. He'd been confronted about it earlier and refused to take it off the curriculum, so
we got them to be like, We shouldn't be teaching that book and stuff.
So, the weekend happens and like, we knew a,llthis stuff-these people we'd have this
conversation with. But like-there's a hundred people in the program and like-basically, a
hundred people didn't know what the fuck was going on because they weren't in there and there
17
was no communication with them. So, we felt like we had to-like, people were owed an update,
especially the people in class were owed an update. You know, should they even show up to class
that next week? So, we sent out another communication that was very tame and mild that was
just-you know-things that we agreed upon with that adminstration in that meeting. And they
came at us like we were making shit it. It was very much like-they told us-they legit told us
that they were not there doing damage control, but that's exactly what they were doing and that's
what they continued to do; so, we had to keep pushing for transparency and action to hold them
to their word. And, to do something about this and Phil.
He started freaking out right away being like, Academic Freedom! You can't fire me
because of (noises), but it's like-fucking, slow your roll here! You know, we want some real
justice here in this situation, which doesn't necessarily ostracizing someone. You know, best case
scenario would have been, Hey, learn and don't be a dick (laughs). But, that didn't happen. We
made an effort to get restorative justice practices used and circle work, but the campus-kind
of-co-opted that and took the teeth out of it and did it in performative ways. So, that was all a
very disheartening-he ended up removed from being the director of the program, but he kept
his job and then quietly retired. Maybe he was forced down because-the Minnesota's version of
the ACLU, they have some other acronym [editor's note: AAUP]-their guideline's are that like:
You can say that racial slur-the n-word-as long as it's-as you're saying the word; calling
someone the word; they see that different. Calling someone outright isn't okay, but speaking it is
okay somehow (laughs). They were like-Augsburg can't just fire him just for that because
they'd get their ass sued-so I've said other things-so like, other people kind of knew their
piece of the pie, but once we started to combine forces and really talk about what was going on
in the program; what was going on with Phil; it became very clear there was a long pattern of
manipulative-kind of abusive behavior that was way beyond the scope of saying then-word
class. As fucked up as that is, they could have nailed him on a whole lot of things: he was
threatening to take away people's scholarship-something he had no authority to do, anyway;
even if that could be justified, he wasn't in that sort of power position to do that-so like, a
whole lot of crap where like-I, anyway, think that if I was employer or something, I wouldn't
want that kind of behavior-that's not the kind of person you want in your workplace. I can't
understand why they tried to shield him.
And so, this all kind of unfolded over the next couple months. That happened in
October-November maybe?
CE: October.
WH: It was like the spring-it was second semester, January or February when I found out that
we was going to keep his job, finally. They stretched it way out and like-you know, they know
what they're doing. They know that we're students with our classes and like, we're going to
graduate in a couple of years so they just have to drag their feet. Eventually, anybody that
remembers what happens is gone-that's the thought process anyway, I think. And so, that was
just a very disheartening--disillusionment for me, where all these people-it wasn't like I was
like, Phil Adamo, my hero! Or anything, but was somebody I considered a colleague and I had
worked with and had a-you know, close isn't quite right, but a working-close relationship. I'd
seen him twice a week for three years (laughs), so that' a a lot of time to think you know
somebody and all that. And Augsburg-so like Phil and just, how the campus at large took
18
it-some of the other Honors professors and folks went on his side. So, when the Film professors
and some of the other professors I liked, I was really disappointed in their-take, you know; and
you'd feel like a jackass (laughs), you know, for having thought that-you know-I don't know;
that reaction to that event means they see me differently than I thought they did. You know, that
sucks (laughs) to figure that out.
So yeah, that also sent me-that, and that climate change thing really sent me spiraling.
And then, the combined burnout of being in my senior year, and taking a lot of classes, and
trying to wrap it all out with the stress of getting it done and finishing all that-really burned me
out. I'm still recovering, seriously. I'm just kind of now, I think, recuperating from the
burnout-the toll of the culmination of the four years of college plus that crap on top of it and
what it takes. So, that's maybe a lowlight.But also in that, you met some really great people. Not
met; I knew them-you know, we formed a much deeper bond and connection there, and that
was like-it sucks that all that shit had to go down for that to happen, but I'm glad those
relationships formed.
Oh jeez, I suppose-in between my junior and senior year was really when I started
to-that's when I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X and I started to like actually read
socialist literature. I found my way to being anti-capitalist via being anti-racist, you know? Your
race analysis critique isn't complete if you're not taking in class and economics into the fold.
Like that's what-once you get out of the American public education system, that's what like
MLK, and Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers, and all these other Civil Rights folks were
talking about the whole time-and so, all of that kind of culminated. That year-kind of-sent
me pretty anti-yeah, I mean the reason Phil and this school were able to do that stuff because of
the power hierarchies there. Not that if there weren't any power hierarchies, people wouldn't still
be dicks, but it's like-people are dicks and then they're put into positions where they wield
absolute power over people and that's where shit get wacks, you know? (laughs)
CE: That was alot.
WH: That was alot, yeah (laughs).
CE: What would you say were the most impactful things that occured to you? I know the Honors
thing butWH: Yeah. The Honors thing but also-I didn't talk about it but I did URGO; undergraduate
research the summer between my sophomore and junior year and that was really impactful for
alot ofreasons. That kind of taught me a lot oflessons. I learned much more about life than what
I was researching-it was kind of creative project with me and two other film major friends. In
retrospect, I don't know how that-if I was in URGO's position and they came to me with that
project, I would have turned it down, you know? Like I'm glad they let us do it and it was
important to be learned, but it was kind of crap. It wasn't great. Since then, I think URGO's since
changed their application process; but, they were open to creative projects, but there had been
initially been so much more STEM-focused, it was kind of hard to fit into their-required boxes
of what you needed to have, and do, and be a creative project. So, we ended up with this kind of
Frankenstein-project that was not really legitimately-like we tried to do research and tried to be
creative, so we half-assed both. If we would have done or the other, it would have been solid but
19
we tried to do to much. We felt like we needed to justify them giving us that much money to
make a movie or something, so we felt like we needed to have some
academic-research-rigorous kind of thing.
So we did it that summer and like-you know, I think my experience was different than
my two partners on it; so much of what I did was bullshit. Like, you're supposed to work
forty-hours a week, and there's no way I was pulling anywhere close to that much time (laughs)
at all working on the stuff I had to do. But I was still doing what I needed to do at the same time,
so like-that was really kind of-that was my first time I supposed to do the forty-hour work
week and I learned that's crap. I don't know-that wasn't my tempo anyways; and so I learned
that, and how to do that kind of stuff. But really, that summer, we-just me and my professor,
who advised the project, presented our findings at this conference in New Mexico.
CE: What year was this?
WH: That would have been 20-2018, in between junior and senior year. Yeah.
CE: When you presented it?
WH: Yeah, when I presented it. And that was kind of like-I'm still-at that point, I was more
considering-I was starting to wrap up my college career and I still didn't really know what I
wanted to do, you know? So I was kind of being like, hmm, you know? Is teaching or being a
professor something I want to do? It's still kind of rattling around in the back of my brain, but I
was lot more like, "Aww jeez, maybe that's it!" for me to do. So, that experience-this academic
thing and meeting a bunch of people that like do what I thought I might want to do-was really
nice and cool to learn. And it was kind of like-I knew what I had done was kind of bullshit and
the project was bullshit-and it was a project that I loved very dear, but it was kind of bull-but
like going to this thing-and these were like grown ass people; professors; people who are
supposed to be teaching people like me-and like, somehow, my bullshit project ended up
being-and there's alot of stuff going on there, so I couldn't see it all; so who know, perhaps
maybe I saw all the bad research and all the bad presentations-but like, yeah!
I was blown away my project was hanging there, right alongside projects by people who
were double my age; people who had been doing this longer than I had been alive, you know?
And they had film screenings there-films made by professors that were like some of the worst
movies I had every seen! It was kind of like, Okay, jeez-opposite of-everybody else got
knocked down a peg in my mind. Like, movies are hard and we're all just kind of scrambling
good stuff and like-prior to that, I felt very much like I had no grasp in terms of where I stacked
up to anybody-like if I actually had any type of skill; any kind of merit to the stuff I was
making-so that conference was really nice because it gave me alot of confidence. I wasn't like,
"Wow!"-my project was still bullshit-but all of this was kind of bull and everybody was
scrambling around. So yeah, learning that lesson that nobody's really better or worse than
anybody else was kind of a precursor then to my senior year, where I really just-kind of lost
faith in everything and being like, it's all kind of-crap, a little bit.
So yeah, I think that was really one of the main, impactful things. I'm trying to think
what else-it's all kind of impactful. My junior year, I made a movie for one of my classes than
ended up in the Minneapolis Film Festival this fall.
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CE: Oh yeah!
WH: Yeah! So that was really cool and that was just really gratifying thing to watch, you
know-something I had made up on something that's like a movie-theater size screen. Because
like my junior year, I had made it into a couple of other film festivals-there's this film festival
called, The Mespies, here in Minneapolis that plays-well, it's actually in Columbia Heights.
They play in a movie theater in Columbia Heights and I got in and they're going to play my
movies! But they screwed up-something got messed up and screwed up and they couldn't play
my files; so even though I got into the festival-and I have it on my resume that my movies were
accepted and screened-they didn't actually show my movies. So, that was really-kind
of-disheartening moment. Like, I was already down in the dumps and stuff, and-I invited
people out there to see it and I didn't have a lot of people to invite in the first place-which I was
sad about-and then the four of the people that showed up, they couldn't even watch. My stuff
couldn't even show. So the next year, to be in a much more like legitimate-not legitimate,
because The Mespies are cool and they're all legitimate; people make an art-but like, yes,
bigger scale-type of thing and actually get to see it; that was really cool. Like if I never make a
movie again, I've got that experience.
CE: Yeah! That's actually super dope! Congrats, that's awesome!
WH: Thank you.
CE: Yeah, I don't want to talk more about the Honors Program. Want to mention anything else? I
guess, what would you say were the results of it?
WH: The results of what? Of Augsburg?
CE: Oh, the Honors Program.
WH: The Honors Program?
CE: Like afterwards, because you intensely involved in your senior year.
WH: So I mean, I was kind of intensely involved and part of that, then, was like-Augsburg
loves its committees, so there was a committee to investigate the program and figure out what
needed to be done. I was kind of of the opinion that we should nuke the whole thing (both
laugh); like, let it go. Or just like, have it so reimagined that to even call it the Honors Program
wouldn't quite be right. Things ended up being slow and taking a lot longer than we had initially
thought we would or talked about being like; once again, I think that's kind of part of that thing
that university administrations know-they can just drag their feet and the passion will die down
because people just lose faith or move on or graduate, whatever. This committee that I was on
that tried to investigate the program was really taking baby steps and so like-I was graduating,
so I wasn't keep doing it-so I was like, Hey, you know, like make sure-like I didn't
really-part of the reason I became president in the first place and why I stuck around and got
involved was because the program is really white. I was one--once again, I was one of the only
21
Black people in the program. I think the only Black man in my year in the program and so I was
kind of like-my perspective is one that could come in handy in these situations (laughs), you
know? And so, didn't quite have faith that they would keep fighting without me and I've heard
this year from people at this school, it sounds like they're not kind of quite-I'm not involved
anymore so perhaps what they've uncovered led them in a different direct than we were thinking,
but they're not doing what we talked about when we were still involved.
But like, the good that has come out of it is that people-we really started to understand
how power works at this institution and how seeded these problems are; it isn't just an asshole
professor here or there-it really is the whole structure of how things are run and who's in
charge and so. I think maybe not getting what would have been best situation with Phil Adamo
broadened our scope of like, Okay; we can't fix this, but how can we make it so that kind of shit
doesn't happen anymore? So, there's efforts right now too, to try to get more wide-systemic
change at the campus that I've been involved in, but other people are really starting to take up
the mantle more-since I am an alumni, I am slowly starting to move on.
So, that's a good one. And yeah, I supposed my takeaway-I was already skeptical of
things, but-now I am very skeptical of all institutions, and I think that is a healthy thing, you
know? I think that's a good-I think it's good to-like showing up at Augsburg, I was saying yes
to everything-that's also how I entered the program, because I was asked, you know? And I
became a president and I think somebody like-I think I might have been nominated, but kind of
fell into a lot of the things I ended up doing. Kind of with the, "Oh yeah, come on! This all
seems good," you know? Having good faith in everything. Like I want to trust people and
believe people are good-and if you're not going to have love for people, what are you doing
around here?-but now, I am a lot more-I will be asking questions about why are we doing
things the way we're doing? Residence Life kind of taught me that; like why-you know,
because people want to be kind of marching along with the ways things are done; even when we
all know the ways the things are being done aren't good (laughs), you know? Not only are they
not great, they're not necessary.
CE: Well, to put in on record, we got a lot of things dones. MSS [editor's note: Multicultural
Student Services] are fully staffed now, full time; we also had Joanne Reecke's position to
full-time-Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer; dismantled the Honors Program-which was a
good thing, for the most part; and I would say we also broke the glass ceiling. We made it visible
that Augsburg was not a liberal utopia.
WH: Yeah, for sure; the atmosphere on campus really change and like-people were-people
knew, but a lot of people-the people that were not really helping the people that needed the
help, they thought Augsburg really was what it was selling and so-having that big, public
rupture and having students stand up for themselves kind of forced them to grapple with that.
CE: Just want to put it on record, that was because of student efforts, not because of Augsburg's
administration's efforts.
WH: Yes, exactly.
CE: Students pushed for that.
22
WH: Yes! And I was like-ten ofus really got that going. It ended up being more than
that-with other folks, I probably don't even know, doing stuff-but yes, that was also another
good lesson. If like ten, burn-out, clueless student can make that kind of change that rapidly,
what can we do?
CE: Facts! So, I have a few more questions. So, I have to ask to ask this question: do you think
Augsburg fulfilled their mission statement for you?
WH: Could you read the mission statement for me?
CE: Alright. "Augsburg University educates students to be infonned citizens, thoughtful
stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. The Augsburg experience is supported by an
engaged community that is committed to intentional diversity in its life and work."
WH: I think maybe, but probably not in the way that Augsburg expected (laughs). Like what
they think that means and what I think all that means, and like what all that is for me-definitely
became a lot more critical of a thinker here, you know? Hopefully informed and thoughtful. So
yeah. The part that's bullshit here is really the second part of this: the engaged community
dedicated to intentional diversity. Committed to intentional diversity; I think that's true.
Augsburg intentionally changed how they recruit students into this school; about fifteen years
ago, it was pretty much just white people. Now, it's majority non-white, right? So like-that
exposure-they fulfilled their promise, but that opened with it the faultlines of what that leaves
out and what-diversity for what, you know? What's it for, you know? Is it just to pad your
number and try to get good press? Or is it to like actually support and help marginalized people
in this world? If that's what they mean by intentional diversity, I think they're missing the mark.
But if they mean just like getting people here (laughs), they did it. I went to Augsburg.
CE: Do you think the Augsburg experience prepared you for your career?
WH: No. I mean I only have the job I have right now because of Augsburg and my academic
advisory. My academic advisor has like-not quite; I don't know if friend is quite the right word.
Colleague?-some kind of relationship with people where I work in advertising and one of the
PR-kind of the head PR dude where I work-knows Bob and he had kind of deal because he
does an internship-three internships a year: spring, fall, and summer. So like, my academic
advisor kept having really good-like kept recommending really good people, so they just made
an arrangement that he would come to him for-he would be like, "Hey! Find me my next
intern," and so he would pick people. I was lucky enough that he liked me and recommended me,
so I was an intern there and I was doing copywriting-which what I am doing now; I am doing
video stuff. But just because I was an intern there a couple months last fall, they knew who I
was; then I ran into him randomly and he was like, "Hey! Send me your resume, we might be
looking for video work," and then that's how I got my job. Now, I can-you know, I am making
my loan payments and paying my bills and-I'm still arguable paycheck-to-paycheck, but I am
not stressing because, Oh shit, maybe I should split money between groceries and-I have a bit
more of a padding. So I only have that because of my connections to Augsburg.
23
But, in terms of like-that's been another thing. I've been working at this job for months
now-yeah three months now. Oof, coming on four now, I supposed (laughs)-
CE: Wow.
WH: Yeah, wow. Time flies when you're grinding (both laugh). Just in that first month working
there, I learned so much more than I learned in my film classes at Augsburg. The film classes are
definitely a lot better on the philosophical and theoretical wherewithal when it comes to film;
when it comes to the technical stuff-and it's not even because they don't have the fancy
gear-like one of the classes I took was an editing class, and it had the same problem where-I
think the majority of the people weren't film majors and the other-there was a cluster of film
majors and even in that range, there was a wide-range of people who were in their first year; first
ever film class people-I think I took that maybe my senior year? I think I took that in the fall of
my senior year or maybe in the spring of my junior year-but I was wrapping up my time as a
film major. I only had a couple of classes left, so where I was and what I kind of needed out of
that class was kind of different from other people. So, because they were trying to make it a
class-if you didn't know shit about movies, that class was really hard because it was not-and
the professor wasn't the best, I don't think. Not a fan; I had classes with them and no.
Anyway. It wasn't a good fit for them; wasn't a good fit for me. And like, it was an
editing class in Adobe Premier, which is industry's standard of what movies are edited on these
days. And like-there's so many hard things and it's like kind of an obtuse-because it can do
alot, it's kind of a hard thing to jump into; not super user friendly out of the gate. But like even
now-shit, I could probably like roll in and get people more practical-you know, advice and
lessons for like how to use it and what to do than what I think I got in my time. That was kind of
disappointing.
I'm glad I learned that shit, and I am glad I went to Augsburg, and I am glad the film
program is how it was for a lot of reasons-me the freedom to be creative, but like, oh shit!
Jeez-it was kind of really disappointing that this program- that was dear to my heart with
professors that I like-don't have it. Didn't have it together enough to actually be
teaching-actually setting people up for success. I am really-I feel really in-over my head alot
on the job. You know, I am making it work-no doubt-but yeah, practically no thanks to
Augsburg's film classes. Really just through the time, experience, and hours spent in the
software tangentially working on projects in the film class, but not the classes about how to use
the gear. And then-kind of goes across the board, for editing and for also camera and using
lighting-I don't know how to light shit. If I was trying to work in Hollywood or really trying to
work in the industry-like I fell into advertising. So like, I'm making a living with film-with
like moving images-by accident almost. So, I'm like chill about it. But I was like going to film
school to be like Jordan Peele or Greta Gerwig-then like, Augsburg is not the film program for
you. They do not set you up for that level of work, which is kind of-which is good for me,
because that's not what I want; but, it's kind of a bummer.
CE: Do you have any advice for future Auggies?
WH: Oof, jeez. Get involved and pay attention to what the hell is going on. So many people
during my senior year-even in the Honors Program-were just like really out of the loop with
24
what was happening and at first, it was hard; the administration was being very obtuse and not
very transparent. But even when people were trying to get people to know and like understand
what was going on, people didn't know or didn't care to know; whatever.
And move off campus as soon as you possibly can. Seriously, like it's nuts. They make
you sign up-make you re-up your housing-super early in the year. They make you do it-is it
like February?
CE: Something like that, yeah.
WH: It's coming up around this time of the year, if it hasn't already happened, and like-you get
off campus and most places aren't listed a couple months before your lease. So if you're trying to
move someplace in September, you probably can't even find it-it's probably not even up for
grabs until maybe May. Like maybe when school's getting out for the year (laughs). So yeah,
they do that to make you be like, Oh jeez! Don't have any other options, have to move back on
campus. So yeah, seriously. You'll save so much money. It's ridiculous how much money I saved
moving on campus, even thought I'm paying for utilities and paying rent and paying for
transportation to and from school. And not even a meal plan-so much cheaper to not being on
campus. It really is, frankly, disgusting the way-what they do. But I think that's their bread and
butter-that's how they make money, is the room and board, so.
CE: Would you like to make any other comments about anything I didn't hit on? Talk about?
WH: Augsburg. You know-I ended up being involved, but I feel like I barely touched the
surface on everything that is going on at this school. There's a lot of dope people in their own
comers that just don't end up ever crossing paths for whatever reason: buildings are quartered off
by majors or whatever, but you know; yeah. I mean, hopefully they get it together and are
carbon-neutral by 2030. Carbon-free even better, because I hear carbon neutral and I think
carbon-credits, you know? That's not going-that's not enough. We can't offset it-we have to
stop.
So, we talked a lot about Augsburg but not about the neighborhood around it, you know,
like Cedar-Riverside. Really dope place-really glad I got to live in this part of the city for a
couple of years. Like Seward is right there-a lot fo really cool things going on in this
community and there's a healthy tradition of-you know, radical folks. Organizing, being
conscious. Art. Lots of cool stuff. So you know-Augsburg, with all of its problems, I have the
suspicion it's hardly unique to what a university is. You're probably going to find it everywhere.
So you know-I can't. I'm glad I did it. Am I proud to be an Auggie? I don't know about that!
But I am one, and that's something that's going to stick with me and even after all that and the
illusion/disillusionment, everything shattered-there's a place in my heart for Augsburg. There's
also-I kind of avoid it as much as I can; try not be here. It's complicated kind ofrelationship.
CE: Well, thank you! This is the end of the interview. So, I appreciate you again for your
willingness to be interviewed and I will send you a copy of the transcript. I loved everything you
said.
WH: Thank you.
25
CE: So thank you.
WH: No, thank you.
End of Interview
26
Show less
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Thu, 3/25 6:41PM
22:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, commons, health, augsburg, treat, feel, providing, dnp, practicum, minnesota, community,
pandemic, experience, lived, working, poorly, interacted, program, addiction, university
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, J... Show more
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Thu, 3/25 6:41PM
22:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, commons, health, augsburg, treat, feel, providing, dnp, practicum, minnesota, community,
pandemic, experience, lived, working, poorly, interacted, program, addiction, university
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Jenna Nelson
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
central health commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, and I'm a student at Augsburg
University. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording and tell us what your
position is? Or was at the university?
J
Jenna Nelson 00:20
Yeah, my name is Jenna Nelson. I am a DNP FNP student in my third year at Augsburg
University, and I'm also working as an intern with the health commons.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:36
Okay, great. Thank you. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent
to being interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will
be made available to the public.
J
Jenna Nelson 00:48
Yes, I consent to that.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 1 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:50
Okay. Thank you. Can you tell me where you grew up? And who you call family?
J
Jenna Nelson 00:56
Yeah, so my dad was in the Air Force. And so I grew up on Air Force bases. We lived in
Okinawa, Japan. We lived in Hawaii for four years. And then we lived in Fort Walton
Beach, Florida. And then we moved to Rochester, Minnesota, where I ended up doing High
School. And I was adopted when I was three months old from Chile. So yeah, my family is
my older brother, Tony, also adopted from Chile a few years before I was from a different
family. And then my parents who are, my dad's from Brainerd, Minnesota, so really
Minnesotan and my mom's more Western, Claire City, Minnesota, a small farming town.
So yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:42
Great. Thank you. How did you end up at Augsburg University.
J
Jenna Nelson 01:46
So, I like the Twin Cities. I went to the University of Minnesota for my undergrad. And I
heard a lot of good things about Augsburg from other people that I've met living up here.
And then I worked for about 10 years after I graduated with my Rn, and wanted to live
back in Minneapolis. So it just kind of was close. And I liked how the program sounded.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:14
Great. Thank you. How did you become involved with Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 02:18
So for one of my classes for the DNP FNP program, Katie was the instructor and part of
the class was to kind of actually be involved in the community and see different ways you
can work with community members. And so one of the places she told us about this, the
Health Commons, and we can get practicum hours for it too. So that's kind of how we got
started with it.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:46
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 2 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Okay. And what can you tell me about your experience at Health Commons so far?
J
Jenna Nelson 02:51
so far, it's kind of crazy this last year, because things changed with the pandemic, pretty
significantly. But before the pandemic, it seemed fairly busy, you know, you could see
there's a need for this. And just kind of the relationships I saw Katie have with people who
come here frequently, even interacting with people that are new to the Health Commons
using some of those kind of services that they provide. I just think it's really important work
she's doing. It's needed in the community, and it would be awesome if there were more
places like this in most communities, because there's a need really, for this.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:37
How long have you been at Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 03:40
I think I did start in 2018. I volunteered a little bit after I did some practicum hours here.
And then I was free. I took a year off from school. And then when I started again, that
summer, I came back so I think it was summer of 2019. I came and volunteered a couple
times. And then with the internship, right when I saw that email, I kind of jumped on it and
said I want to do it. So I was fortunate I get picked.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:07
So you're here again!
J
Jenna Nelson 04:08
Yeah, I am here now, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:10
Okay. How was Health Commons presented to fit in with your curriculum? And how well
do you think your experience at Health Commons relates to what you were learning?
J
Jenna Nelson 04:20
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 3 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Yeah, so the Health Commons was, again, the Augsburg DNP FNP program specifically
wants to focus on holistic community health. Family Nurse Practitioners are meant to
provide preventative health care to community members. And, you know, the U.S. doesn't
have a universal health care system. Obviously, there's huge groups of people who are not
getting primary care, preventative care, even just kind of basic health counseling. So this
kind of fit into that part of this program where they really wanted to emphasize being
involved in the community, working directly with the people that you're serving, and kind
of addressing those underlying problems with certain groups of people not getting the
care that, you know, they need.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:54
So it sounds like the curriculum has really aligned with the mission of Health Commons
here.
J
Jenna Nelson 05:23
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say the, and vice versa, too. I guess that would
make sense. But yeah, this is really, I think the direction that they want to go with this
specific program, the FNP DNP program. And I would say it's, it might be one of the only
kind of parts of the program that really do. Like, it's it is what it says it is. It's not... I feel
like sometimes programs can kind of, you know, they try to advertise, and they say, "We
do this, we're involved in this," but then you're in the program, and you're like, "You do that
for an hour, like one semester." That's not what you signed up for. But I feel like this is
definitely kind of what they're preaching in the program.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:06
So walking the walk?
J
Jenna Nelson 06:07
In action, yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:08
Yeah. Okay, thank you. How did your experience at Health Commons fit or challenge your
expectations?
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 4 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
Jenna Nelson 06:17
Um, I would say it challenged my expectations. It kind of fit it, too. I mean, so working with
people directly, especially people who've been marginalized, treated poorly by healthcare
providers, and basically anybody who, you know, works with a certain entity, like a
hospital or the government or something, I feel like, people are pretty, not defensive, but
just cautious around new people. And so I guess I was surprised that people coming to
Health Commons and using its services were as open as they were, to me. And then every
now and then I would be surprised and taken aback if somebody...if I did something or
said something that offended someone really strongly. But yeah, I guess it kind of was
what I thought it would be. Which is good. Because, you know, like I said, a lot of times,
people say that they're doing something, and it involves all these details, and then you do,
and that's not really what they said it was, and this was exactly, you know, working with
people directly and meeting them where they're at.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:24
And you said that a lot of people met you and trusted you and accepted the care that you
were providing. Which wasn't your expectation? What do you think it was that made you
approachable? As a health care provider?
J
Jenna Nelson 07:44
Yeah, specifically in this environment, I would just say...Katie, pretty much. They trust Katie,
a lot of people here really trust Katie, and they really don't trust anyone else that is
"providing". I'm doing quotes, you're providing services for them. But I think because of the
direct relation and where I'm coming from. That might have been why. Also, usually when
I meet people, I'm fairly quiet, and I try to let them direct the conversation or the
interaction. So that might help.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:22
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Did you feel as though people felt welcomed into
this space? Do you have any suggestions on how we could do that better? You've already
touched on this a little bit.
J
Jenna Nelson 08:36
Yeah, I think they do (feel welcomed). And again, the pandemic makes it, it really
complicates things in terms of people feeling welcomed. Just because you can only have
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 5 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
so many people in the room at one time and then because other people are waiting to
come in. They can only, kind of, spend so much time there. We try not to rush anyone out.
But yeah, it's I think it would have been interesting to be here a lot more before the
pandemic to see.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:04
The contrast.
J
Jenna Nelson 09:05
Yeah, but I felt like when the Health Commons was in that trailer in the parking lot, like a
long time ago, before the church had finished its renovations, even though it was a tiny,
cramped space, it felt super welcoming. Like it felt like a good vibe. You walk in there and
you know people, it seemed like people felt like they could be there and they were
comfortable.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:27
Okay, what strengths did you learn of, or hear from the people that you met?
J
Jenna Nelson 09:34
Um, people I met working or just people using the services ?
I
Isaac Tadé 09:39
Probably both, yeah.
J
Jenna Nelson 09:43
Well, yeah. I guess for the people that are coming in here that are either currently
experiencing homelessness or have, a lot of the strengths are just you know, they're
resilient. They still see the good in people even though they've been treated poorly. And
hearing some of their stories to like, you know, a lot of institutionalized, like racism or just
being treated poorly in all these different avenues. And yeah, they're very resilient. So
that's good to see. And then the people working here, I would just say, their strengths are
that they keep an open mind. And I don't see a lot of people here at all acting as if they
know more than the people seeking services. It's kind of like, more of an even playing field
versus going into like a clinic and seeing a primary care doctor or nurse practitioner.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 6 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Nobody's... I feel like nobody's really being talked down to they're just having
conversations.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:50
The relationships between people providing services and people receiving them are often
mutually beneficial. Would you say?
J
Jenna Nelson 10:57
Definitely, yeah. And and I think it's very transparent that that's the case too, I don't think,
yeah. That's nice. That's true.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:06
Thank you. How has this experience changed any biases you may have had about
homelessness, or marginalized housed individually? individuals? Excuse me.
J
Jenna Nelson 11:20
So like working in the emergency department, I've interacted with people that are
experiencing homelessness or experiencing addiction, or, you know, they have
experienced homelessness. And I think this just kind of helps me have more experience
working with people who might have had those lived experiences.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:45
Do any stories come to mind? Um, I'm about bias or...
J
Jenna Nelson 11:52
like, well, I guess something,
I
Isaac Tadé 11:54
Maybe something that changed your perspective?
J
Jenna Nelson 11:56
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 7 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I guess some stuff. Just interacting with people here and like people opening up the
people seeking services, I think I became more comfortable caring for that population in
the ER. Like, I didn't realize that I wasn't comfortable with it, or I didn't realize that I was
like, I was maybe just not, I don't even know, opening up enough. Like when you're a nurse,
and you're working with a patient who comes to the ER, for example, like you can tell if
they want to interact with you a lot. They can tell if you want to narrate their care. And
sometimes when people would come in and they were homeless, I just would leave them
alone, because I was like, "Oh, they're tired, they're resting or like, I'm just gonna wait for,
you know, when we get the results back from their labs are x ray." But after being here, I
realize no, I mean, each individual is different, regardless of whether or not they're housed
or homeless or suffering from addiction. And so then I feel like I was more open to letting
them kind of run the show in terms of how the interaction would happen. And I remember,
like, after doing some volunteering at the Health Commons, I was working in the
emergency department. And this guy came in and he was missing, I think he was missing
all the toes on one of his foot. And the other foot, he was missing almost all of them too.
There like there were two left. And he had just gotten off a bus from...it was either
Mississippi or Louisiana. Literally the community that was serving him down there gave
him a bus pass and said, "You can go wherever you want." And so he said, "I came to
Minnesota, because I've heard they have really good resources up here. They treat people
well." And I think it was a middle of winter too. And I'm just like, oh my God. So he had
come in because he was having like, some pain in his foot. He had a little bit of an ulcer
who was diabetic. So the wound healing was poor. And like, I got him a bunch of warm
blankets. And I was like, "Do you want anything to eat?" I got him some food, some
emergency room food, which isn't great, but I got him food. And I think every time I came
in there, he was just like, taken aback, like, Is this real? And so I wonder how he's how he
was treated previously, you know, in emergency room settings or in other healthcare type
settings. But it was really funny. Like, I think he he thought I was like, I don't know, like,
super nice. I'm like, "No, this is how we treat people here, you know, typically."
I
Isaac Tadé 14:13
So it sounds like originally, you had just kind of interacted with the population when
necessary to provide the care.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:25
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:25
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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And now it seems as though you've kind of gone past that maybe eliminated some of
those biases that you didn't even know you had.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:33
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:34
And you're more interactive with the population, which provides better, like relationships
for you. And probably better care as well.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:43
Exactly. Yeah. Like I think, just working with other people in general, especially when
related to their health. It's like...you kind of have to step back and look at what your role is
and how you might appear to them. And I think I didn't want to be a bother. A lot of times
when people were coming in, because again, I was like this is their only time where they're
getting, like shelter for maybe four or five hours or something like that. So I would just
want to leave them alone. But then exactly like, the more I actually was here and had
conversations with people, the more I recognize that it depends on the person, but a lot of
people are craving like social interaction. And this is one of the places where they would
get it would be like a health care setting.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:30
Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you. How would you suggest we can better accompany
people on their journey of health, for example, adding more hours or adding outreach
services?
J
Jenna Nelson 15:46
Adding more hours would be good. I know that takes people and money and time and
stuff. But yeah, I think adding more hours and locations, which was mentioned before, too.
And yeah, like being involved with the encampments, as well as, you know, providing
meals. With the COVID, providing immunizations, if we have some bringing it out to them
versus expecting them to come here. But yeah, basically just being more even more visible
in the community than they already are, would be good.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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I
Isaac Tadé 16:21
Outreach more?
J
Jenna Nelson 16:22
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:23
Okay. What, if anything, will you take forward with you, from your experience? For
example, has this experience impacted your future career ideas or personal goals? What
was the most valuable part of your experience? Actually, I'll just ask that first question.
What, if anything, will you take forward with you from this experience,
J
Jenna Nelson 16:49
Um, just, again, that people are extraordinarily resilient, like mentally, physically, and that,
again, everybody has a story, and everybody has a reason for being the way that they
are. And even if it comes off as harsh or rude, or, like, you know, they're having a really
bad time. So just keeping that in mind, not taking things personally, and trying to, you
know, individually, respond to somebody versus assuming, making kind of stereotypes you
know, about what they might need, based on how they look. I mean, when I look at
someone, now I look at them, and I'm like, I have no idea what they want, I need to I need
to communicate with them. Whereas before, I might have made assumptions. Is that a
practice that you learned here? Or through Augsburg orsomething else? Definitely, with
the programs. I think it's 803 is the class, I can't remember 802 or 803. But yeah, like, any
of the practicum hours that we did, especially with the Health Commons, I feel like kind of
foster that. So.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:01
Okay, thank you. What was the most valuable part of this experience?
J
Jenna Nelson 18:08
So far, I think it's been seeing, like, the relationships that Katie has with people and then
just having time to work with people here. I think it's just, you know, things take time. And
to have the chance to do this is awesome, especially to get like, you know, do the
internship is amazing. I would have volunteered regardless, but to have an internship to
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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for students is awesome. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:37
What was most useful to you?
J
Jenna Nelson 18:41
I'm probably having Katie, as a, I'd say mentor, like somebody I can ask questions to. And I
don't have to be afraid that maybe I just sounded like I'm stereotyping someone. Like it's
a very open conversation. And if I have questions about, you know, how she interacts with
people when they treat her a certain way, I know, it's an open space. I don't know what
they call it in the woke community.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:07
Like a safe space space. Yeah. for learning and for...
J
Jenna Nelson 19:10
Yeah, yeah, there's not... I feel really confident too that there's not judgment. It's more like,
okay, like, open your mind. We're learning together here. So, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:20
Wow, that's beautiful. What do you think Health Commons could do better? Is there
anything missing?
J
Jenna Nelson 19:27
Um, I don't know. That's a good question. I would have to think about that. Okay. But I
mean, yeah, it's just sometimes I like the idea of telling people they can only take so many
things like the whole...I think...
I
Isaac Tadé 19:47
Limited resources?
Jenna Nelson 19:48
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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J
Jenna Nelson 19:48
Yeah. It's the limited resources and the reason for it is because there's limited resources
Funding and like, yeah. But no, I think, again, outreach and of promoting their existence
so people know they're here, is good in the community.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:52
Funding, yeah Is there anything that you would change about the internship experience?
J
Jenna Nelson 20:12
Um, I don't think so. No, I, I think it's gone really well. It's nice and convenient to be able to
schedule online. We have that too. So, no, that's good.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:24
Okay. Is there any specific story you would share that stuck with you, from your
experience at Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 20:38
Initially when I was doing 803, and volunteering and getting practicum hours, I think it was
2017 or 2018. But I did an oral history for a gentlemen that frequently came to the Health
Commons. And I talked to him for about 45 minutes. And once I was typing it up, typing up
the transcript, I realized, like... I don't know, some of the stuff that he'd been through was
like, he had no control over it. And he had suffered from alcoholism. And he was treated
really poorly in a lot of environments because of his history of addiction. And it was just
another example of like, how issues with addiction and at least our community, I want to
say generally our country, probably worldwide, are just, I mean, we really need to work on
how we treat people with addiction issues.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:36
We punish rather than treat.
J
Jenna Nelson 21:38
Yeah, and I mean even...Yeah, definitely we do that.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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I
Isaac Tadé 21:43
Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?
J
Jenna Nelson 21:55
No, I don't think so.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:57
Okay, I think this concludes our oral history. Thank you so much.
J
Jenna Nelson 22:03
Yes. You're welcome. Thanks.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
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Show less
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
Thu, 4/8 5:57PM
33:10
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, augsburg, commons, health, pandemic, haircut, internship, community, person, dentistry,
katie, intern, homeless, life, dental, assume, site, dentist, encampment, evicted
SPEAKERS
Kathleen Clark, Isaac Ta... Show more
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
Thu, 4/8 5:57PM
33:10
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, augsburg, commons, health, pandemic, haircut, internship, community, person, dentistry,
katie, intern, homeless, life, dental, assume, site, dentist, encampment, evicted
SPEAKERS
Kathleen Clark, Isaac Tadé
Kathleen Clark 00:03
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
central health Commons. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing.
Could you please introduce yourself for the recording and tell us what your position is at
the university?
I
Isaac Tadé 00:20
Hello, my name is Isaac Tadé. And I am a student intern with Augsburg Health Commons
at Central Lutheran Church in downtown Minneapolis.
Kathleen Clark 00:35
Wonderful, and what year are you in the undergrad?
I
Isaac Tadé 00:39
I am a senior in the undergrad at Augsburg studying biology and with a minor in religion.
Kathleen Clark 00:46
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And do you know what you'll be doing when you're done?
I
Isaac Tadé 00:49
I do. After I finished this year, I'll be starting dental school in the fall. Fall 2021 at the
University of Minnesota School of Dentistry.
Kathleen Clark 01:01
And what are the internships called that you're doing?
I
Isaac Tadé 01:05
I am a Christensen scholars intern through the Christensen scholars program at Augsburg
Kathleen Clark 01:12
And then I think you added another internship was that one through the Strommen center.
Is that correct?
I
Isaac Tadé 01:18
That's correct.
Kathleen Clark 01:19
Excellent. Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:20
Double intern this year. Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 01:23
And that, that for me and my role is exciting because you're the first Strommen intern
we've ever had.
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I
Isaac Tadé 01:31
The guinea pig.
Kathleen Clark 01:33
Right, so great. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having the interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:45
Yes, I consent. Great.
Kathleen Clark 01:48
So just to start off, can you tell me a little bit about where you grew up and who you call
family?
I
Isaac Tadé 01:54
For sure. So I'm originally from in Ngaoundéré, Cameroon. That's where I was born. And
my family moved to the United States when I was four years old. We lived with my
grandmother at their lake home in Bad Lake Minnesota for a summer before moving to
Walcott, North Dakota, a small town of 200 people. I went to high school oil, middle
school and Kindred, North Dakota. And then I moved to Windham, Minnesota, big town
life of 5004 for high school, and that's kind of where I went to high school. And then
bouncing around there, I decided to come to Augsburg because I wanted to be in a larger
city. And I really was interested in the diversity here. And Augsburg was a D3 school where
I could be involved with a lot of things such as the track team, cross country, the choir,
things like that. So that's kind of what I've done. That's why I'm here.
Kathleen Clark 03:11
Did Augsburg meet those expectations for you?
I
Isaac Tadé 03:14
Yeah, Yes, it did. Augsburg delivered, and then something I've really enjoyed my time here.
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Yeah, I only have positive things to say about about Augsburg again. And I love where I'm
at. So that's kind of a part of why I've decided to stay in Minneapolis for the next four
years for dental school. So I love it here.
Kathleen Clark 03:36
How did you become involved or hear about the health commons?
I
Isaac Tadé 03:41
So through Christensen scholars, we are given an internship, and it was who was it the
internship kind of director?
Kathleen Clark 03:56
Jeremey Meyers
I
Isaac Tadé 03:57
There we go. Thank you. Jeremy Meyers, kind of forwarded in emails saying that there was
this potential opportunity to intern at health commons working with people who face to
come from different disparities and who, yeah, and just kind of do health care work. And
that's really interested me and I wanted to get into the field more, and work with real
people. So that's where the connection was made. And then he introduced me to you,
Katie. And from there, we've just kind of brainstormed how this internship would work. And
this semester, I've been coming in person to help calm and site. Through the pandemic.
I've been blessed that I've been able to work with real people, and not just computer
screens. Yeah, so that's how I got to help doctors.
Kathleen Clark 04:58
And then you've also been involved With the pre dental club, can you tell me a little bit
about that as well?
I
Isaac Tadé 05:06
Yeah, so I've been with the pre dental club since I first came to Augsburg, and I'm currently
the president of the Student Organization. Essentially, I want to give other people the
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opportunity to access things such as volunteer hours, information about dentistry, how to
apply and things like that. That's kind of what the club does. But through health commons,
we've been able to do a couple different events, we've done a clothing drive. That,
basically, yeah, we brought in a bunch of clothes and, and help distribute those out,
bringing them to health commons and stuff. And pre dental volunteers came along with
that. But we also got dental supplies, toothbrushes, floss tooth toothpaste, from the
University of Minnesota School of Dentistry, and brought them to health commons, were
we made health kits, and distributed those out as well, while helping lead people to their
vaccine site when those are available, so that was, I think that was a really great
opportunity for pre dental students to just get some more volunteering hours and to, you
know, just talk about what are some of the needs that the community has? While we're in
person, you know, and having these conversations with the people who are affected by it.
Kathleen Clark 06:49
Can you tell me about your experiences at the health commons?
I
Isaac Tadé 06:53
Absolutely, it's been very insightful, I think that would be the best word. I think I've since
moving to the city, I've always seen homeless people around. So when I would go running
on the Greenway, or downtown or by the river, I would always see people who are facing
housing insecurity. And I always just felt bad. And I never really knew what to do, even
when you go to the grocery store, you know, there's usually someone on the corner or
something, asking for ways to just get by. And so I always feel bad, but I never really know
how I can help or how I can be useful. And so I think this experience has been really
insightful. Because before I really thought that, you know, I needed to get my degree. And
through that paperwork, you know, I would have the tools necessary to make a change,
but that's really not the case. I think, each day, if you just bring a positive attitude, if you
are approachable, if you are hospitable. If you are friendly, and and humanizing, you can
really make a difference, and to people, even if it's just listening to them and having a
conversation. It's helping someone else's life. And I think that's really a beautiful thing. So I
think that's kind of been my experience at health comments. Um, it's been really insightful.
I think that's kind of where my mindset has switched a little bit.
Kathleen Clark 08:44
So has the health commons, been able to fit into some of the course content you've had?
As far as are you? Do you find time that you're like, Oh, this is what I would learn at the
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
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health commons. And now I'm reading about it in class.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:04
Yeah, I think so. I mean, just generally speaking, our experience mission is to, to see and to
serve the neighbor to live with the neighbor. And like I said, being in the city, your
neighbors, often homeless people. And so just being aware of that, I think is a big step.
And I think that really fits into how Augsburg does about its admission. In the Christiensen
Scholars Program, we're reading a book called vintage sinners and saints. And it's
basically talking about like, everyday people who have glorified God. Through struggle
and through strife and through depression and through old pression So it's just this idea
that every person is like a two sided coin, we often see like these glorified figures, but we
don't take into the consideration of what their human life is really like, you know,
recognizing that people are just human. And I think that two sided coin is very much
present with every one of us, you know, we can't just see the best in people, we can't just
see the saint. There's also a center behind behind that, that mask, and we can't just
assume that someone is a full, fully a sinner, either. And so yeah, I think that's kind of how I
see our curriculum in the program being implemented in our, in our work at Christiansen
are at the health calmness, because we can't make those assumptions that a person is
fully one or the other work. We're complicated.
Kathleen Clark 11:04
So do you feel as though people feel welcomed in this space? And do you have any
suggestions on how we could welcome people better?
I
Isaac Tadé 11:13
For sure, um, from what I've seen, people are really treated as fully human at health
commons, people are welcomed in with a lot of hospitality. And with a lot of grace and
with little to no judgment. And with little to no questions or pressure of their, excuse me,
current circumstances. That's from what I've seen, people are met with like a level
headedness. And there's no condescending attitude. So I think health comments does a
really good job at that. And when I started, Katie, you talk to me about those things. And
you talked about how we don't judge here, and we just try to meet the needs of the people
where they're at. And we can't assume we know what their needs are. Those things are
really important. And I think health commons does an excellent job at that.
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
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Kathleen Clark 12:17
What strengths did you learn of or hear from people that you've met?
I
Isaac Tadé 12:23
Yeah, I think there are so many people in the homeless community who are absolutely
hilarious. They're just so funny, and they're just bright, and funky. And just like, fun people.
And I think that humor is an excellent way of showing resilience, and of bringing light into
situations or lives that might otherwise be very difficult. And so that's one thing I've really
noticed about some of the strengths that people have. I think the homeless community,
they really understand their own needs to they they see from a certain perspective that
that person like myself, who hasn't experienced homelessness just doesn't have a
perspective that I don't have. They talk about how things can improve physically, with
their mental health with maybe dependency with spirituality, a lot of social issues they
often discuss in detail. And with solutions, it's it's incredible how some of these people
aren't politicians, because it seems like everyone has an answer. So I think they have a
certain perspective, and they understand their own needs. Very well. Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 14:14
So has this experience changed any biases or thoughts that you might have had about
people experiencing homelessness, or who were marginally housed?
I
Isaac Tadé 14:24
Yeah, for sure. Um, I think I'm learning a lot more about this country. While I'm learning
about people experiencing homelessness from this country, I realized that it has
oftentimes very little forgiveness. One time offenses can land you in jail, which means you
have a massive stain on you and your record and it follows you throughout your entire life
which is unfortunate preventing you from Getting a job housing insurance. Even seeking
health care becomes difficult sometimes because of these things that are often
misdemeanors. So yeah, I think oftentimes people think, well, if you're homeless, you
deserve it. And why don't you just get out of your own situation, everyone has a hard life.
Pull yourself up by your bootstraps, this is America, you should be able to get things done.
But that's just not how it works. There are so many alternative circumstances that that
affect people. And, and as individuals at the time, they may not have the resources to pull
themselves out. Um, and this country really isn't forgiving of that. For example, I talked to
a woman outside of target. A few days ago, I brought her some granola bars. And she had
said that she was working, I think it was staples, or something like that. And then, at the
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
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beginning of the pandemic, she lived with her boyfriend. But the staples closed because of
the pandemic, and budget cuts, and they just couldn't afford to stay open any longer at
that time. And so, because of that, she was already pretty short on cash from kind of just
working this minimum wage job with her boyfriend, and then they weren't able to afford
housing in the city, because it's expensive. And so they were evicted. And then from there,
through the eviction process, they lost a lot of their paperwork, and contacts. And it very
important thing such as like, social, social security card, and I think she even lost her
wallet. And so she wasn't able to apply for funding like assistance funding, or she wasn't
able to look for another job. And the pandemic was just raging on, so no one was
employed anyways. And everyone she knew, was basically out of reach just because of
personal reasons. And she couldn't go visit her mother asked for help, because her mother
was in like a nursing home. And so there are those bills to pay as well. So huge, that she
had no choice but to be homeless, and be out on the street asking for money, you know,
and but I think we just assume, in this society that your life is totally in your own hands to
control. And I think that's just not the case, oftentimes, so just trying to be more forgiving.
And I wish this country was more forgiving, too. That's what I'm learning.
Kathleen Clark 18:18
Do you have any suggestions on how we could better accompany people on their journey
of health? Or have you seen anyone be accompanied on their journey of health?
I
Isaac Tadé 18:34
Yeah, I think just considering health is, well, it should be well rounded. Including things. I
mean, physical, mental, spiritual. Health commons does a pretty good job of covering the
spiritual and physical right, we have nurses, and we have spiritual leaders in the
community in the church. But you know, there, and I suppose they cover the social as well.
But I think there's just there's more to it. Um, we could talk about, you know, financial, Can
Can we have a financial adviser, or, or a social worker or someone with job assistance? I
know and I don't know the full workings of, you know, how it comes or whatever. But yeah,
I think it's just important to consider the whole person.
Kathleen Clark 19:42
So what, if anything, will you take forward from this experience? For example, has
anything impacted your future career or personal goals? Or what has been? Yeah, just
most valuable or useful to you?
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
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I
Isaac Tadé 19:57
Yeah, I think one of the most important lessons Just to never judge someone based on the
position that they're in, and never assume that I know what's going on in their life, or that I
can pin their existence down to one or two mistakes in their life or one or two events in
their lives. People are so much more than that. For example, I was talking to a person that
health Thomas who goes there for services. And he told me about this story when he was
riding the light rail, and it was a domestic abuse situation. And he asked this woman Well,
why do you? Why do you take this? Why do you keep letting this guy abuse you? And he
said, she said, it was better to get abused by one man than by 12. And so that just blew his
mind. It's like, well, you want the best for this lady. Okay? If he if he were to cut this guy off,
that's her protection from these 11 other, you know, 12 other dudes who could be messing
her life up even worse. And so that really taught me quite bluntly, to never assume you
know, the best in someone's situation and never assume you have their situation figured
out. I think it's always important to ask how you can be of service, what needs Do you
have today that I can meet? I think that's a good way to approach conversation. I'm in
service, yeah, a conversation in service. I also will just be, I really want to go into
community health from this point forward. Like I said, I've always felt like I I noticed people
who are marginalized, and I feel bad for them. And then it used to be that I, I just, it just
stops there. I just stop and I feel bad. And then, you know, I get over it. But I think at this
point, I really want to continue my impact. And I would love to work in a community
health setting in the future as a dentist, and maybe even go to public health school. And I
don't know, we'll see. But I'm just really interested in the community health dynamic. And I
think that's where my heart and skill sets kind of best meet the needs. That I see. If Katie, if
you ever see me do cosmetic dentistry, if you ever see me just like doing veneers and like
tooth whitening, something had gotten very wrong, because I don't want to be a strip mall
dentist, if that makes sense. And that's just not who I want to be. So he ever seen me on a
strip mall? Today's teeth in the suburbs that asked me a few questions about how life is
going. So that's just who I am.
Kathleen Clark 23:40
So can you tell me a little bit too, like I know, for the whole year, you're able to be
Christiansen scholar intern. But then this semester, you came on board, like I said earlier
and through the Strommen center as our first intern as the health commons engagement
specialist. So given that, you know, used to do three hours a week, and now you're doing a
significant amount of more, what has this internship on top of your original internship
allowed you to do?
Isaac Tadé 24:13
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I
Isaac Tadé 24:13
Yeah, absolutely. So being in person at health commons. This semester as the engagement
specialist, I've been able to expand on the things I was doing last year last semester, doing
things such as the oral histories, just telling the stories of the people at health comments.
I've been doing a lot of volunteer recruitment, through the pre dental club, just to kind of
help Come out, come out and do some of the things that I'm already doing. But just with
more numbers, also aiding in COVID-19 vaccine recruitment. We've had a couple days at
health commons where we've been fortunate to distribute out vaccines and Volunteers are
needed. So those things have all been really impactful for me and have really helped me
to kind of ground myself, I think, at the health commons being useful and being of service.
And then with my, I suppose free, free time outside of the internship, I've been just reading
different pieces that kind of enhance my understanding of the work. I'm actually doing.
One of those reading Evicted by Matt Desmond, I read that earlier this semester. And
yeah, those are those are the things I've been doing with my time.
Kathleen Clark 25:43
And where are you? Have you ever been able to go to the encampments at all?
I
Isaac Tadé 25:47
Yes, that's another thing. We were able to visit the encampments, just to see what
circumstances were like there and to help distribute out water and food and some other
supplies that that were needed there.
Kathleen Clark 26:02
And what was your thoughts leaving the encampment?
I
Isaac Tadé 26:08
My thoughts were essentially that there, their encampment community was, is just
integrated right into the city. It's like It's its own little corner, in a neighborhood. And it's so
present, like, it's, it's right there, it's visible, it's in someone's backyard. And yet, like these
inhumane conditions, are so visible, and yet, the problems aren't solved, the problems
aren't seen, if that makes sense. So that kind of is what shocked me, just how present the
community was, and how detached I think our society is from it.
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
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Kathleen Clark 27:00
So as far as the health commons goes, is there something missing or something we could
do better?
I
Isaac Tadé 27:07
I think health commons does a really great job of like I said, before being welcoming,
meeting people's needs, where they're at creating a sense of community and a safe space
for community. in so many different ways. I think, maybe like access or connection to
more healthcare workers on site would be good, like, maybe having volunteer physicians,
or, or dentist or social workers or therapists on site would be would be really beneficial.
And I again, I don't know if that happened, or if that's happened before, other times when
I'm not around, or what exactly happens, but from what I see, maybe that could be an
improvement. I guess my thoughts on that have developed after I made a dental health
pamphlet that we handed out with our hygiene kits, and in this pamphlet are probably
four or five different places where you can go for anyone can go for reduced or free
dental care. And I was handing these out to people. And one of the members from health
comments came up to me, and it was just kind of like, Well, you know, this is really great,
all the informations right here for you. But to most of these people, it's just another piece
of paper. And that was kind of just like a reality check for me and, and the thought that
you know, these people really do know their needs. But at the same time, they don't have
the direct access to where they can get those needs met. And so giving them a pamphlet
isn't all that helpful, it would be more helpful to bring in a dentist directly on site. And so
that's one thing I've been thinking about. And I think it would be helpful to have other
people on site to like I said, social workers, therapists, maybe yoga instructors, or
something.
Kathleen Clark 29:22
So is there a story that you'd like to share that really stuck with you? Or is there anything
you'd like to add that we didn't ask about?
I
Isaac Tadé 29:31
Sure, I've already mentioned a few stories. But one more that just happened a couple of
weeks ago, was with a gentleman. Probably one of the best dressed people I've ever seen.
It's it's incredible that he's homeless. He's always coming in with a fresh pair of slacks and
in a dress shirt and everything. But anyways, I noticed that he had gotten a haircut. And I
complimented him on it. I said, that's a great haircut. And he said, Well, thank you. Is there
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
Page 11 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
a place in your Oxburgh where I can get a cheaper free haircut next time? And I said, Well,
no, as a matter of fact, I got up charged last time I got a haircut at the shop near campus.
And he said, Well, what do you do, and I basically explained how I won't go into all the
details. But I didn't get what I wanted in my haircut, and I got charged $50. And they took
like an hour and a half. And I asked this guy, if I could get my normal rate of like 30 years
something. And that wasn't happening. So I didn't go back to the barber shop. And he just
laughed for a long time. And when he caught his breath, he explained to me that I wasn't
being wise. That if I was truly wise, I would go into the community, find someone that can
come back to the barbershop with me, talk to the owners, negotiate a reasonable price,
negotiate a student discount, negotiate, how they, how their business model can improve,
and be a responsible capitalist. And so I got this massive lecture by this homeless man,
when I was just complimenting him on his haircut, and it didn't really end there either.
Because I kind of came back at him a little bit. And I said, Well, I think that would be I
think that would be what was the word I used? naive to go back to the to the barbershop
and barber shop and assume that they would give me what I wanted the next time. Well,
then it turned into Yeah, again, like this massive conversation about responsible
capitalism. And then it turns into this thing about argumentation techniques and how if I
wanted to convince someone, what I was saying, I needed to phrase things in a certain
way or whatever. So that was just a very memorable conversation. I think we talked for
about two and a half hours in and out, but it just stem from me complimenting his haircut.
So add health comments, you never really know what you're gonna get. Get yourself into.
And that's part of the fun about it. I really enjoy the people. And like I said, I've just been
really blessed to be able to do this in person through the pandemic, because you just can't
get this kind of interaction over a screen. So yeah, I think that's about it.
Kathleen Clark 32:48
Wonderful, and your contributions this year have been immense and have been significant
and has changed us all for the better so.
I
Isaac Tadé 33:01
Oh, I'm blushing. Katie. Thank you.
Kathleen Clark 33:04
Alright, well, that concludes our oral history. Thank you. Happy to be here. Thanks.
Oral History with Isaac Tadé (2021)
Page 12 of 12
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Ellen; Oral History
Tue, 4/20 11:18AM
15:33
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, experience, augsburg, health, welcoming, remember, homeless, people, feel, interns,
coming, work, housed, class, guess, guests, biases, story, spandex, nice
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Ellen
I
Isaac Tadé 00:00
Thank you f... Show more
Ellen; Oral History
Tue, 4/20 11:18AM
15:33
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, experience, augsburg, health, welcoming, remember, homeless, people, feel, interns,
coming, work, housed, class, guess, guests, biases, story, spandex, nice
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Ellen
I
Isaac Tadé 00:00
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Health Commons at Central Lutheran Church in downtown Minneapolis. Could you
please introduce yourself for the recording and tell us what your position at the university
is?
E
Ellen 00:10
Yes my name is Ellen Kearney and I'm a current DNP FNP student. I'm in my second year,
just finishing up my second year of the program, and I am also currently the one of two
health Commons interns.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:18
Okay, thank you. Can you tell me where you grew up and who you called family?
E
Ellen 00:46
I grew up in kind of a Mayberry situation in Morningside which is a neighborhood in Edina.
I have two younger brothers Tom and jack and then my mom and my dad. We always had
tons of animals as well: dogs, cats, chickens, a hedgehog called Blackberry. Yeah, and
Ellen; Oral History
Page 1 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
then now I live in St. Paul with my husband and still have a lot of animals. We have three
chickens and two cats.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:12
Awesome. Thank you. How did you end up at Augsburg University?
E
Ellen 01:17
So I always knew about Augsburg. One of my neighbors growing up was actually in the
nursing department, and she kind of raved about Augsburg. But I knew that I really
wanted to leave Minnesota for college. So I kind of ignored the fact that Augsburg was
right there next door. And then when I moved back here, now about five years ago, I found
Augsburg again on the list of nurse practitioner programs, and just kind of on a whim,
went to a information session and was totally charmed by Joyce. She really sold me. So it
was the only program that I applied to. And here I am two years later.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:54
Joyce is a wonderful lady. How did you become involved with health commons?
E
Ellen 02:01
I'm so encouraged to volunteer in my, I think it was, 740 or 541 class. I can't remember if it
was a requirement or not. But I came the fall of 2019. And then was kind of hooked and
just kept coming back and kept finding ways to work it into my practicum for classes or
now coming as part of the 701.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:28
Okay, thank you. What can you tell me about your experience at health commons?
E
Ellen 02:34
I'm so I'm so grateful that I got to experience both the pre-COVID commons and the
COVID commons as both a student volunteer and now was an intern. So I feel like I've
been able to see the commons from a lot of different angles. Every time I go to the
commons, something different happens, I get to use my ICU skills and help people
navigate getting to the hospital in a hypertensive crisis, or sometimes I wash feet. But I
really think the most of my time at the commons is spent, just listening to people. And
Ellen; Oral History
Page 2 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
every time I go, I just kind of love it more.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:10
Most definitely. How was health commons presented to fit in with your curriculum? And
how well do you think your experience at health commons relates to what you were
learning in class?
E
Ellen 03:21
I think it blended into my education pretty seamlessly. But I've definitely tailored some of
my academic experiences towards my interests in the commons definitley aligns with my
interests. I don't really kind of remember how it was brought up in class, I know that we
were given the option of watching the video before coming and I definitely didn't watch
the video the first time. But I remember it being sort of, like I remember coming to the
commons and being sort of shocked because I thought that it was definitely gonna be
more of like a skilled nursing thing. So I think I was, I didn't really know, or I don't really
remember what how it was presented. And that maybe it was just me, like just zoning out
in class. But I think it has worked really well with my education. And also for me, I think at
least that it affirms that I would really like to work with marginalized populations as a
nurse practitioner. I had this kind of idea when I came to Augsburg that's what I wanted to
do. But really, it was just an idea. And now I have like all this practical experience to draw
upon. That's been really valuable.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:32
Yeah, that's really insightful. Thank you. How did you experience that health commons fit
or challenge your expectations?
E
Ellen 04:41
So like I said, it was really different. I didn't, I did not watch the video. And I came in and
expected to be doing things like more like health, sort of like counseling I guess. And more
like blood pressure taking and less, definitely less relationship building. And I think it took
coming back a few a few times for me to really see the mission and then coming to the
commons as a regular for me to really kind of understand the work. But it was only a while
before I realized, what kind of was the mission of the commons?
Ellen; Oral History
Page 3 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 05:20
Did you feel as though people felt welcomed into the space? Do you have any suggestions
on how we could do better.
E
Ellen 05:29
Well I really hope people feel welcome. I certainly have felt very welcomed into this space
myself. I think that it was so busy when I first started there that I don't remember ever, like
sitting down or stopping moving until we debriefed at the end. So I don't think there was
ever a time to feel unwelcomed or out of place. And even if I didn't know, where things
were, or it was a bit clumsy, I remember being really helped by the regular guests. And
they would kind of show me and put me in the right direction. Um, I really like the way the
room is set up, I think it flows really well, and it creates this super welcoming space. I
sometimes worry that like more sensitive topics are harder to discuss, which might be
making people feel like a little bit more unwelcomed, I guess. I was just thinking of this
yesterday. A woman came in and was wanting stool softeners. And it's like, you know, it's
either one or two people kind of in there right now. And Sean, John was there. You could
tell she was kind of embarrassed. But Sean John said, like very clearly like, "Oh, I don't
listen to what you're saying," and he knew that it was a private conversation and made it
clear he wasn't listening. So I think it still is a welcoming place. But I think sometimes with
it being so small and intimate now sometimes maybe that might make it feel a little
unwelcoming? I don't know. But I think overall, it is a very welcoming place and that I don't
really think there's any suggestions about how we can make it more welcoming, I guess.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:55
Yeah, that's good to hear, thank you. What strengths did you learn of or hear from people
that you've met?
E
Ellen 07:04
Um, I think I hear strength in pretty much every story that I hear there, and the resiliency
of the guests always kind of floored me. Um, I guess I can't think of like one specific
example. Right now. But I guess just the like, determination that people have they keep
getting up coming back trying again, kind of all those cliches, but they're really true. I've
seen over and over again.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:32
Ellen; Oral History
Page 4 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Yeah, most definitely. How has this experience changed any biases you may have had
about homeless people, or marginally housed individuals, excuse me.
E
Ellen 07:45
This was really my first experience working with or spending extended periods of time with
people experiencing homelessness. And I think many of my biases were challenged, I
mean, just thinking on the top my head about people like Paul and Sean John, who are
clearly so smart, and, you know, so put together and have had just like this series of bad
luck that led them to where they are and to be homeless. That, you know, that's certainly
challenged some of my beliefs about our previous biases about homelessness. And I think
that COVID has really demonstrated to how vulnerable all of us are, that none of our jobs
are truly recession proof. And it has eluminated, how easy it is for all of us to become
homeless or marginally housed. Much like Paul or Shean John or any number of the
people who come regularly. Um, I think also this experience has sort of opened my eyes to
more injustice. And I really never thought that the homeless was easy or fair. And maybe
the people experiencing homelessness were marginalized. But I think I never fully, and I
still don't fully realize how marginalized. Just yesterday, I was thinking about, as I was
bringing food to the encampments, just how, like, ridiculous it is that people are still not
allowed to sleep or live in public spaces, like parks. And then we still don't have enough
places in shelters to house everybody. So I guess those would be some of my, I guess, I
don't know if those are biases or just things that have become clear about the homeless
experience.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:27
Thank you for that. How would you suggest suggest we can better accompany people on
their journey of health, for example, adding more hours or adding outreach services?
E
Ellen 09:39
Yeah, I go back and forth about this. I have loved being able to connect people like Sean
John and chatting to hear all his stories. And I think that's so in line with the goal of the
commons but I also really wish we could reach more people. And I think that's kind of the
perpetual problem in health care. We really want to see and help as many people as we
can, but we also want to build relationships and friendships and like we just can't do it all.
But part of me thinks that doing more might dilute what we currently have. And that if we
add or change anything, or if we do add or change anything, I think it would be really
cool to kind of do a poll of all our guests and maybe even going out to like the near north,
or if there are other encampments that we could think of and asking people there.
Ellen; Oral History
Page 5 of 8
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Because I really, I don't know, what would be more beneficial. I really love what we have
going on now. But certainly, if there were things that people thought that we could do
different, or that we could add, I would be so interested in making accommodations and
helping in other ways, too.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:36
It sounds like a question of quantity versus quality.
E
Ellen 10:40
Totally.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:41
Okay. What, if anything, will you take forward with you from this experience?
E
Ellen 10:49
Oh, um, a lot of things. Um, so I think the big one is that this definitely has affirmed that, I
would love to work with marginalized populations going forward. Um, I think I feel like...so
I got into nursing thinking I was going to be a labor delivery nurse and ended up kind of in
the complete opposite, as a pediatric ICU nurse. And I came into this program thinking
that I wanted to work with marginalized people, but was really open to the idea that, like,
my education might change that. And this experience totally has, just solidified and
affirmed that I would like to work with marginalized populations in some capacity. So
that's kind of invaluable. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:37
Okay, thank you. What do you think health commons can do better? Is something
missing?
E
Ellen 11:45
I don't think so. I think I said when I had to interview for the commons that I thought that it
could maybe be a little bit more organized. Just because sometimes I think it is hard for us
to find things when Katie's not there. But I think Katie definitely took that to heart and
that it is, like a lot more organized now and a lot easier for me to find things. So I think it's
easier for us to be more independent there as the interns. But yeah, I mean, I think it's
Ellen; Oral History
Page 6 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
great. I guess maybe if I was going to just talk about wishes and hopes, like it's been so
nice to have that space be our own. And it would be nice to have that going forward, to
not have to pack it all up every week for Sunday school, but I don't know if that would be
possible in a post COVID world.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:38
Thank you. What could have been better in regards to your volunteer experience?
E
Ellen 12:48
Um, I think I'm so biased that I just love it so much! I don't know what I could say, "what
would be better?" Um, I do sometimes think that... like I was saying before that sometimes
it is just sort of slightly frustrating not being able to find things. But that's definitely gotten
a lot better and made you feel like, I know where stuff is now and things are just more
organized. It's easier, but that would be the only thing.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:16
Okay, is there a specific story you could share that struck you from your experience at
helth commons?
E
Ellen 13:24
Yeah, think it was either the first or second time entering this winter, like over the spring
semester. This woman came in, it was one of those extremely cold days. And she was in
like a midriff spandex top and spandex bottoms, a rain jacket, and then socks and
sandals. And she'd been sleeping outside. Clearly like her hands and her feet were almost
frostbitten. And she just started telling us all about her story, and was super open. And it
came out that her car had been impounded. She'd been living in her car and she had all
the money together to get the car out, but she just didn't have car insurance and that was
going to be another like two or $300 which she just didn't have. And then clearly she
needed a lot of clothes and to be warmed back up. And it was just this like perfect like
stars aligning experience where like everything came together and everyone worked like
so well together. Pastor Melissa came in and was able to hook her up with insurance right
away. People from the clothing closet were able to find her like just the warmest best
clothes. We'd just randomly gotten a shipment of a ton of really nice polar fleece mittens
too. And this woman, she came in just so downtrodden and ended up leaving just so
encouraged and like kind of on this high. It was so wonderful to be able to take care of her
in such a way and help her get her car back. So that was kind of a really...stars aligning
Ellen; Oral History
Page 7 of 8
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experience.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:09
Wow, that's a really beautiful story, thank you. And then our last question is, is there
anything you would like to add that we didn't already ask about?
E
Ellen 15:19
I don't think so.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:22
Okay. Well, thank you. This has been a great experience for me.
E
Ellen 15:27
Thanks, Isaac.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:28
All right you're welcome.
Ellen; Oral History
Page 8 of 8
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B= Bethany Harvey (interviewer)
A= Azucena Esparza Hernandez (narrator)
B: Hello and welcome to the Augsburg University covid-19 pandemic oral history project
for Professor Michael Lansing’s History 300 public history class. Today I am
interviewing a friend of mine who is also a fellow Aug... Show more
B= Bethany Harvey (interviewer)
A= Azucena Esparza Hernandez (narrator)
B: Hello and welcome to the Augsburg University covid-19 pandemic oral history project
for Professor Michael Lansing’s History 300 public history class. Today I am
interviewing a friend of mine who is also a fellow Augsburg student. My interviewee has
experienced Augsburg classes and campus life during the trenches of the pandemic, the
beginning of the pandemic.
It is currently 8:38 on April 3rd of 2023 in Minneapolis Minnesota.
B: Alrighty can you state your full name and your pronoun
A: Yes, I go by Azucena Esparza Hernandez and I use they/she pronoun
B: And what is you year and your majo
A: I’m a third year majoring in studio art and art educatio
B: And when was your rst year living on campus
A: My rst year was in 2020. (Fall 2020).
B: How did covid affect your living situation, like on campus
A: There were de nitely a lot of restrictions relating to living on campus so it was hard to
kind of get to places just with knowing the restrictions of leaving your room sometimes
felt like a chore because you kind of had to be prepared for leaving. You had to be
prepared to be outside and cautious of the environment so going to the dining hall and
making sure you had your mask on and checking when the bathrooms were open while
they were being sanitized as well as the restrictions for campus events making sure to
check in and I thought things were sanitized and wearing your name with social life and
meeting new people was hard also when everything was online and events were. so yeah
.
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B: So you found that kind of challenging
A: I found that challenging as well but I think there were some positive aspects to it as
well because I was able to choose what I wanted to attend to and what I didn't and when I
did have that motivation to get outside there were things for me to do.
B: So our rst year were we were obviously very isolated and our dorms and I was
wondering if you could talk about how you went about making friends and how you went
about doing that, like what tools did you use and what resources did you take advantage
of, like campus events or social media and such and if like you had a roommate and what
and how you got the roommate
A: Another thing that was hard for my rst year living on campus was that I really have
to nd my own way to make friends on my own I found my rst roommate through the
Facebook group and then I had to reach out on my own and follow people on social
media from just the zoom display names and nd my own way to like make my own
friendships whereas if we had been in person I would kind of be forced to see the same
people all three times a week and then I'd have to talk to them in person and do that so it
was hard but I learned new skills having to make and build friendships.
B: So you mentioned you had a roommate, did you nd any challenges with having a
roommate with the online courses because obviously you both had to do like Zoom
courses in your dorm in such close quarters, can you just explain some of those
challenges
A: Honestly I think most of the time our schedules were pretty different from each other
so they didn't overlap but I do remember we would have meetings sometimes that would
overlap and I remember my roommate once had a meeting with her advisor for classes
and I just sort of had to put my headphones on which feel a little silly but it was kind of
what we had to do and something else that was kind of fun was that during our oor
meetings for our dorm we would get to join them together on Zoom which was like on
the same screen.
B: And can you describe like your extracurricular activities that you did during the
pandemic
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A: So my rst year I joined student government and I actually ran for a rst-year class
president and won so that's what I did my rst year and it's funny thinking about it now
because the only really motivation that I had to go for that was because everything was
online and over zoom and I knew I would be able to get to the meetings because it was
just opening up my laptop which is different than now where I don't think I would have
the time or energy to do that because I know I'd have to get up and get to the bus and go
go to campus and go to the meetings which I think that affected my like motivation to be
in different groups but I've been a part of the Echo for all of my time at Augsburg which
is really interesting to me to see how it's changed. Kind of the same thing I joined
because I know I'd be able to get to the meetings and also I was just interested in being a
part of something else my rst year and I was the opinions editor for a semester until we
went back in person and I decided that I would be more t for something more visual so I
also applied for the layout editor job I just found myself enjoying that a lot more and
being able to go into the of ce and physically work on the paper rather than emailing
people back and forth, so that has been a big change too
B: So you say like the beginning of the pandemic kind of open you up to ease into bigger
groups like echo and day student government
A: Yeah I would say so.
B: How did covid effect the classes you were taking that rst year
A: During my rst year I was a political science major and I wasn't entirely sure what I
wanted to do but taking those classes online and seeing how different are rather how
much professors didn't change their material to be updated to teach over Zoom made me
realize that that wasn't really what I wanted to do and how there are so many different
teaching methods to be more helpful for zoom.
B: Did you nd anything challenging with the zoom classes at all
A: Not having a lot of interest in classes was a challenge but also something I added to it
that was Professor is kind of just going through slides and not really changing up their
material for that and because of that again not having the motivation to log into Zoom or
keep my camera on to participate in class.
B: Do you feel as though you got us suf cient education through these online classes
A: I think so although it was boring I think it was kind of the only thing I had to do
during covid so it was good to dedicate myself to it.
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B: So during our sophomore year we had a in person classes but the masks were still
mandated so can you describe how like the mask mandate affected your classes /
education at Augsburg
A: I don't think that it affected my education too much but it was really nice to know that
everyone was protected and we were all following it and we're all able to keep healthy
and keep her community health
B: How were your classes set up differently to accommodate for the mask mandate
A: sometimes there would be more space between students other times not so much it
really depended on the class all right and do your current learning environments differ
from one nice room and aided do you think I think so there's a lot more activities now I
feel like in my classes which has been really fun where I was before professors were kind
of have to give a disclaimer being like we can't really do this activity because we can't we
have to maintain that space between us but now that has kind of wind it down do you
think it's easier to like enjoy your classes without the mess and like make friends and be
social and stuff. I think so being able to see people's faces and expressions and hear them
a little bit clearer but I think when we had to wear masks we all kind of knew the reason
why so.
B: Can you explain the transition from zoom classes to in-person classes with masks and
then in-person classes with no masks, when the mask mandate was lifted back like after
spring break last year, and then if there's any difference between your the classes when
after the Mandate was lifted to your current classes right now
A: I think one of the biggest transitions was from Zoom classes to in-person classes with
mask because being in person with everyone you could kind of realize how big your class
was and like all of the people that were really in your class and that was a really positive
transition for me I think being able to see everyone physically. It wasn't so much of a very
dif cult transition to go from a classes with mask to in person with it was positive
transition because I feel like being able to see people's faces in their expressions and
getting to talk to people a little bit more from my classes was exciting and new and then
from then to now wasn't so much of a big transition I feel like everyone's sort of get more
used to being in classes and going back to quote-unquote normal.
B: And can you describe any major changes from pre-pandemic to post pandemic? I
guess we started at Augsburg like fall of 2020 so that's not really pre-pandemic, but I
guess if you could describe if you notice anything like different from then to now,
obviously there's some big big changes but like anything else you know
?
?
?
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A: Yeah I think one of those big changes has been Community I think everyone has been
coming together a lot more and I feel like that's one of the more obvious ones you were
talking about but also I have noticed people caring for each other a lot differently I think
especially at Augsburg when we have all these resources like a covered the share shop
there's a lot of different opportunities for people to help each other out just been really
positive and good to see.
B: Do you think Augsburg did a suf cient job at handling the pandemic
A: I think in general yes looking at other schools and how they handled it one of the big
reasons why I chose to come to Augsburg was because they were helping out a lot of
students in need during the pandemic so I got way better nancial aid at Augsburg
because of the pandemic and that obviously has changed my life course just for my
education and I think that was really positive because a lot of schools weren't really doing
that as well as having a mask mandate in like really enforcing all of the covid precautions
that we had and housing students that needed to be isolated and there were like some
smaller things needed to be dealt with regarding that housing kind of like later in the
pandemic there were some things that kind of got paid less attention to because of the
pandemic. But I think overall I think it has done a suf cient job.
B: Do you think like anything more could have been done
A: Yeah I think just like keeping that same rate of attention to covid precautions
throughout like all of the years that I went down would have been good but like I
understand the needs a kind of let go of some of them as people were getting vaccinated
and healing I guess.
B: Do you think if a pandemic or something similar would happen again do you think
Augsburg would be like prepared for it more
A: I think so I'm having that pandemic team that they had put together was smart and like
knowing what to do in those situations and I feel I would feel comfortable being at
Augsburg if that ever happens again.
B: all right and do you have any last questions for me or for the project at all
A: I don’t think I do
?
?
?
fi
fi
?
fi
!
B: Alright thank you so much!!
Show less
All right. So I guess we can just start with you saying your name and I feel like yeah,
introductions.
My name is Noah lair. I'm a student here at Augsburg in my second year here.
Yeah. Nice. so my name is Zach Woodhead. I'll be the narrator for this assignment.
So yeah, so my first questio... Show more
All right. So I guess we can just start with you saying your name and I feel like yeah,
introductions.
My name is Noah lair. I'm a student here at Augsburg in my second year here.
Yeah. Nice. so my name is Zach Woodhead. I'll be the narrator for this assignment.
So yeah, so my first question that I had for you was just, how did COVID How did the COVID 19
pandemic affect your college experience? Overall? Overall, how's this affected?
Well, I think one of the biggest things obviously was like the introduction to online classes. I
mean, and that started for me in high school and COVID hit, but then even when I got to
college, they're still having online classes. And so like, like, before COVID There was, like, I
don't think there was really like, ever online classes for like regular college. I mean, there was
like, like, technical colleges that had like, online stuff, like, that's what they were like, offering but
like, so like, yeah, the difference between like, now like, in a schedule, you're balancing, oh, I
have like one class in person. But then after go find this place, because I'm on an online class
the next time and like, different things like that, I think prize the biggest then also to probably
like, mean, during COVID to there's like different stuff. Like when I was a freshman to like, I lived
in the dorms, like we didn't have, we can only have like, certain amount of people coming in,
like, into our dorms and stuff. So like, you weren't able to, like invite all your friends over all the
time. Like there was like, strict rules about like, you only can have like, one or two people
besides like people living there. Sure. That sort of affected like social life too. I think so just
things like that, where it's like, mean, they're like little inconveniences, but like, it does sort of like
take away from your college experience, I guess a little bit. Sure. So I guess like, following up
with that. So with being like, limited with like, how many people you can invite or?
And was that your freshman year? Yeah, I was going on. Yeah. So like, that was like, I'm finally
I'm in college. Yeah. And like, that's your experience? Like how did that affect you? Were you
like upset? Are you not coming we I had a little bit lucky because like, I gotta live with at least I
had through the roommates. So like, there wasn't like a good amount of other guys with me in
the room, but because like we had a two bedroom room. And then we each had like two people
in each bedrooms after the roommates, which was nice, because like, it was a good group, like
amount of people but like, I know, some freshmen, like it's just them and one other roommate.
And then like, the pie was really isolating for them because like, you only can like, be with that
one person and then maybe invite like one other person over Sure. I mean, so yeah, that
probably is like, isolating for them. Sure. And then
so being in a dorm Did you were you from Are you like from Did you commute? Like are you out
of state or do you live close to the campus or? Well, I'm pretty close. I live Rosemount, which is
like 30 minutes south of here. Okay, but so like, I was able to like go home a fair amount
sometimes. But yeah, I mean, mostly lived here. Just because it's I don't know, I had basketball
going on. I always had to be here. So sure. I lived mostly in the dorms and went back like a little
bit here and there. Okay, yeah. So
you had stuff kind of going on, like, let's say class, and well, class was probably all online, too.
At that point. For some, some was online, some was in person, it sort of depended on there's
different masking policies to there's, there was like, it was like a gray period, because like when
I got to college, it was sort of like, like my freshman year, like my fall semester freshman year, it
was like the second wave, like sort of the tail end of the second wave. But like, there was a lot of
like, gray space where it was like, some teachers are requiring you to like wear a mask and like
are super strict about it. Other teachers are like, it's up to you. Like what do you want to do other
teachers are like still scared to hold in person. So that was why I was online. So I just like it sort
of was like I almost made it worse because like if it was just like one like all I lie and I feel like I
would have been able to like get used to it more. But it was like bouncing between like teachers
preferences and like all that stuff. Sure. Yeah. So did you
like how did you respond to that? Did you were you like fresh or you would you get like
frustrated if like a teacher was like oh I'm still not comfortable? And then you had to go in line or
like what was your what what was kind of like your
How did you like react to like being told you had to wear a mask to class every single day? Well,
it was like interesting because like in high school, we got to a point where like, we weren't
masked, like weren't required to wear masks. But then like, I knew like coming to a smaller
college like they're probably going to want to like required more. And so like I was
Finding like somebody just had like really valid reasons like they live with like a spouse or
someone that was like immediately immunocompromised and so like, obviously, like, just
wearing a mask, like, to me, it wasn't like that big of a deal. Like, I had already been like wearing
masks, because COVID had been going on for like, two years at this point in like a year. And so
like, I was already pretty used to, like, at that point, like, it didn't really bother me that much. But
definitely, like, it was frustrating. Like, like, taking I like, like being I like in person class better just
because like, I can be like asking teachers questions like right away, or like, before class after
class, like getting extra feedback, or like getting help on extra stuff, where like, when is over
zoom, it was like a lot harder. And like, you're like doing zoom office hours, which is like a whole
nother step. So like, I felt like that was probably the biggest struggle with online classes. And
then like, I had a teacher who was like, hesitate, because her parents were got sick in Mexico,
so she had to like zoom from Mexico. And so sometimes she'd have like, bad internet
connection, like different things like that. But yeah, definitely made it harder. Sure.
I guess another question would be
could you like Describe how your daily routine changed as a college student during the
pandemic? Or, like the how the pandemic like did this affect, like, the routine as a student that
we knew, or knew of our whole life and then having to kind of adapt to this like to Denny, like, did
you find that things changed? Or? Well, first off, I'll just say like, it definitely changed my, like,
athletic experience, like playing basketball, because so when I came in, like, there was still
COVID restrictions, like, it was not less because like, I know, the season before I came to
Augsburg, like they only had like a five game season like that was because it was like peak
COVID. And it was like, like, so literally, the whole season was canceled, but like, we had a full
season my year, but like, there was still a lot of different things like testing and everything like
that. And like, we basically you either had to get vaccinated, or if you weren't vaccinated, you
had to be testing, like every week, like twice a week. And then like, if, if you if you got if you
were vaccinated and got like COVID, you'd be out for like, seven to eight days, like maximum.
And then like, you'd have to do like, a play to like return to play like platform, you'd have to like
go through a bunch of tests to see like, if you're okay, and then if you weren't vaccinated, and
you got COVID It was like, an automatic two weeks out, like no matter what. And so like, that
kind of stuff, where it's like, you have guys in the team, like quite like, worried about getting
vaccinated or not. And so I think most of our players got vaccinated just to like, be able to, like,
not have to wait out that long if you weren't you COVID. And like, we had an incident where we
did have COVID. And so we like missed the game. And then we had to, like, everyone had to
sort of test and like do that kind of stuff. So like, and like sometimes if someone was exposed,
and they knew about it, like we'd have to wear masks during practice, like out of the blue, which
is sort of like a hard thing to do when you're running around wearing a mask. But so like that
kind of stuff like day to day definitely affected like basketball wise, but then school eyes. Yeah, I
think it's a lot of what I talked about already, but just like,
think bigger, it's honestly just the online classes. And then like the dining hall was when I was a
freshman, the dining hall was like, up and running and open and everything was fine. But I know
from other my father friends who were like, older than me a little bit older than me, like their
dining hall experience, like their freshman year was like really bad because it was closed a lot of
times. And so you'd have they had like, I think it was like the bring you meals to your room. But
like, it didn't always like work like bid sometimes we didn't get the meals or like it'd be like really
like on portioned and like all that kind of stuffs like, honestly felt worse for them. Because like,
they were like the ones like super, like, locked in the room and like couldn't like all their classes
online and stuff. But like, I guess our my time like with COVID in college is more of just like a
gray space of like, like, is it still going on? Is it not? Sure. Sort of like kinda like the middle of like,
is it over with is it not? And like, that can be frustrating, obviously, too, but I sort of feel for like
them more. Sure. Just because like they they really like their freshman year, which is rude. No,
no, like five games season. All online classes, like stuck in your room. Yeah, that was Yeah.
Fair. For you too. Yes. Yeah. So.
So yeah. So you kind of
for whoever's listening to this. You spent, I guess the second half of high school. Yeah. Where it
was kind of really strong. And then you came to Augsburg na was still going on, but really like
the forefront of it all happening was still in high school. Yeah. the forefront was junior year. I
think it was March 17. I think 2020
2020 Yeah, because that was when we were on spring break, like as juniors. And then we got
an email saying, like, you have an extra week of spring break. And it was like, we sort of COVID
like sort of been being talked about, but like, a lot of us did not know, I didn't really know what it
was, like, they didn't even give a reason reason why an extra week, it was just, like, we're
planning on stuff, we haven't really an extra week. And then from there, it was like, we went all
online for the rest half of my junior year. And like, that was really weird. Because like, in high
school, it was even, like, more weird to like, have like online classes, because like high school,
like you're always in person, like yes is like everything. And so like, a lot of teachers didn't know
how to like adapt. And like, I felt for a lot of them because like they had never had anything
happen like this before. And I was like, I feel like none and I mean, none of us really had
anything like this happen. And so like, yeah, like my prom got cancelled junior year. And so like,
I only ended up going to senior prom, which was nice. But um, but yeah, I didn't have a junior
prom. And then yeah, other stuff happened though to like, even in my senior year, in the fall,
there was like another wave. And so then, like, that was weird, too. Because like, we started
school in person, then like, picked off. So we went online again. But then it's like, and then I
didn't have like a football state tournament because of COVID. And we would have went to the
state tournament, I think.
But yeah, and then my that was like senior year was like, Junior year was like, basically all
online. Like that was it that was the peak wave. But then like, see you again, because like,
there's basically like two big waves and COVID. And like, senior year, you got to like the point
where you got through the first wave, but then like, the second wave picked up again. And so
then it was like, weird, because like we were bouncing in between in person and online. And
then like, there was choice students had like choices to make too. And like I played basketball in
the winter. And like our coach recommended that like basketball players go online, because like,
if you get exposed in class in high school, then you would be out. So like a lot of like, athletes in
high school, like stayed virtual, like during their seasons. So like they could maximize being able
to play. But we were still wearing masks like the whole senior year too, which was pretty crazy.
Yeah, it was definitely crazy. Yeah, as a crazy time. But yeah, but then again, like when I went to
college, it was sort of like the second wave had peaked. And like, but they were still like, in a
gray space of like, is it still going on? Like stuff was like vaccines had sort of come out? But like,
like, it wasn't like, everyone hadn't got them yet. And so like, there was still like, a question of
like, is going on? And like, all these different like, rules about some people are like really saying
it's still going other people. They're like moving past it. So yeah, so
brought up vaccines, I guess. Yeah.
And how some players cuz
you know, this isn't about me. But yeah, some people were
a little bit more I feel like cautious about the vaccine and had different takes on it. Yeah.
What was that? Like? I know, you kind of touched base on it with I'm assuming a few players on
your team. Were kind of like that. How, how did you react to that kind of situation? And it? Yeah,
and the seemingly, you know,
I don't want to say it was forced, but yeah, it was almost like you were pushed into a direction of
not being able to not get it. So like how, yeah, how it coaches like basically just said, like, it'd be
in your best interest to get the vaccine. I wasn't like, forced, because like, we definitely thought
you didn't get it. But like, they basically just described it like, like the consequences of not having
it and then getting COVID Were like, far greater being out like automatically two weeks no
matter what. Versus like, if you were like vaccinated, I think it was like, a five or like five days,
but if you had no symptoms, or like seven days, but if you had no symptoms, it could be shorter,
or something like that. And like a lot of those rules like change, like month to month and so like
our athletic trainer, Mac, he had to deal with a lot of that and like, think about it like to is like for
them being on the trainers, like that added a whole nother element to like athletic training with
COVID. And like, it puts a lot of stress on him because like, he's like, trying to get guys like
contests and like do this and that and like, I don't think he ever anticipated his job being like that.
Sure. It's because like, He's almost like a real doctor now, like making sure people have COVID
tests and like, Who's who can play who can sit and things like that. But yeah, I bought the
vaccines and like some people not getting it. Like I understand like it was uh, I mean, when I got
the vaccine, it's sort of been around for a decent amount where like, people had been like, okay
with it and like, like, fine, but like, I had no question I was gonna get it just
cuz like, I didn't want to, like, I think the biggest thing for me was like, I didn't want to get other
people sick. And so like, that was the biggest thing. But like, I respected like the people's
choices to not get it. But like, they ended up having to sit out super long sometimes. And like,
they mean that's just on them. And that's alright, you know, but you know, so. But yeah,
definitely created some tension because there's like, some social tension of like, oh, some guys
aren't getting it, like, why and different things like that. But like, I was able to, like understand it,
you know, because like, it was a new like, it is a new, really new vaccine. And like, what if
something is bad? And like, everyone's getting it, but like, yeah, at the end of the day, I think it's
just on them. And like, yeah, they want to do, but it definitely did create, like a little bit of like,
social tension now it's Yeah, so
yeah, I guess kind of that's interesting. I'm kind of curious about if you can kind of go into that
more. So I feel like we're kind of going with like the basketball team, because that was yeah,
like, even if you were there, like, I mean, it's okay, if like, everyone, a lot of people will go and
say what they want to say behind other people's backs. Like, Oh, this guy isn't getting it. And
like, was there people were just, like, really? Like, kind of was it? Was it ruin? Did it like impact
people's relationships? Because they weren't getting it? I guess. I mean, I don't necessarily like I
think our least in college, I would say like, we have a pretty close knit guys. Like, I don't think it
like really affected our like, relationship with that with them.
I wouldn't, I wouldn't say that. But I would say like, I think the biggest thing was just like, like, oh,
like, why aren't you following like the mass? Like, almost everyone's getting, like, why aren't you
like kind of stuff? We're like, Yeah, I think everyone just had like that question in their head. But
like, at the end of the day, I think we just accepted their choice. And like, ended up working out,
like, for the most part pretty fine. Like, I had some similar stuff going on, like high school to
where like, Well, I remember this, I went to like a Halloween party. And like that, it was sort of
when COVID was like, on the down end, but like we hadn't done anything in a long time. And so
all my friends was hanging over kind of just have like a pop party or whatever. And then, like, I
ended up getting COVID and then select that it was the fat like that it was the talk about like,
like, I felt like I needed like, because at that point, like you're supposed to, like tell them if you
have COVID and like tell you've been exposed to like, I remember like the school nurse calling
me and I like say yeah, I was with these group of guys. And like, all that kind of stuff. And that
created some tension, like with my friends, because then it was like, Oh, no is like saying we like
he exposed us and like now they're out of stuff. And different things like that. Because like then
they get taken out of school and they get taken out of like sports and like, at the end of the day, I
made that decision because like, I didn't want them to like go expose, like the grandparents or
something. And like, I worked like all my relations, my friends, like worked out fine. But like,
they're always just like those, like social tensions of like, not like your actions or like your
disease is going to like, like, expose someone else. And like that, like has negative effects for
them. So it's that like, direct link of like, tension, I guess, cuz it's like, now I got COVID. And like,
say you got COVID have to tell people about it. Yeah. Exposed you. Yeah, definitely. That's one
of the things to think about with COVID is like it definitely created like, that kind of tension that I
don't think has ever really happened before. Sure. Because like, like, if someone gets the flu, it's
like, oh, it's just him. Yeah, like, yeah, maybe you could expose you but like, there's no like
negative effect unless you don't get sick. You know?
What? I like how you brought up that, like, you got COVID? How, how was that? To like, how
was that for you? Like it was? And then you go into that? And then I'm curious, like, after
experiencing it now that we're pretty much through COVID
Do you think the way people reacted and
the like, treatment that they had towards it? Like all these very, you know, mass can't be around
people like do you think that was the right move? Or did I think it should be or like do you think
after now that we're here, do you think it was kind of more like we should have been a little bit
more like the flu where it's like, you know, it's a sickness. You don't want to get people sick?
Yeah. And I know it was you bounced around high school and stuff, but also like,
kind of like, how do you think Augsburg kind of? Yeah, respond? Yeah, for sure. So yeah, I got a
COVID and it was I was lucky like I got it on the first big wave. And so I wasn't high school still,
but
I was lucky I didn't have like, all I had was like lack of taste and smell. That was it. And that was
a weird symptom to begin with. Because that was like a weird day to just one day like waking up
and like, I was eating some like cinnamon rolls and I just couldn't taste anything and like, oh,
shoot, like this is it? So I was like, I consider myself pretty lucky. Like I got my taste and smell
back pretty soon too. And I know like some people don't. So that's the like, I know I was lucky.
With that, but um,
but yeah, so can you repeat the question again? Sorry. Yeah. So, so I just Yeah, I wanted to
know how you how COVID affected you? And then yeah.
Like, like how your opinion on on like, Yeah, I mean, yeah, being at Augsburg how they kind of
responded, but I know obviously your, your, your high school as well and like kind of how, yeah,
your experience with how it was and how I feel like, I was very heavily pushed that it was I get it,
I get very, very aggressive disease, which I'm not saying it wasn't, but I know some people.
Yeah, I think Augsburg was pretty in terms of like, at the time, I was like, the title of what COVID
was, Augsburg was, I would say when I first got he was pretty strong with their like, with their
rules and regulations and mandates and stuff, because, like we were sort of tailing down at that
point. And so I know a lot of people were like, really frustrated with that just because like, oh,
like whatever masks like I didn't have to wear masks in any other places and like different things
like that.
In terms of like, I don't know, I was sort of annoying, but like, I'm just one of those. My mom
works in health care. And so like she like, she tells me all these stories about like all this, like,
really sick coma patients and everything like that. And like, anytime I was really annoyed, I was
just like, okay, like, it could be really, really worse. And like someone could get really, really sick
still. So like, and like the stuff that Augsburg was having us do like, like, and like in the moment,
it may seem bad. Like in the long run, it really wasn't, it was just like, some teachers could still
require you to wear masks. And like, to me wearing a mask wasn't that big of a deal. Like in
class you just have put on and just wait. And then like, being small, like the like inviting people
over to your dorm. Like, I thought that was a little intense just because like, you can decide you
like want to come over and like obviously you can't throw like a big party, like in your freshman
dorm anyways, because it's small. So it's like, but honestly, what they're trying to do, like they're
trying to still limit people a little bit like limit gatherings. But like, in the end, I'd like it was alright.
But like I would say like, come with other people like definitely thought it was like harder and like
they shouldn't have had them at that time. Just but like, for me, I sort of just sucked it up and
just said, you know, it is what it is. Yeah. I feel like
a lot of people
I'll say being like Americans, you know, this, I feel like especially for our generation. I know
previous generations have had some experience with virus epidemics. But this was like the first
time in my in I'll say our life. Yeah. Where we
we weren't really like the mass stuff. Like it was a it was a you have to Yeah, not a choice basis.
I feel like that's where a lot of the Yeah, push back or.
And being a college student you know, you don't? Nobody thought when they go to college,
they're gonna have to. Yeah, that's like, so I feel like that's where it really created a lot of
tension. So yeah, I feel like that's yeah, I feel like that was part of the Yeah, that thing about
choice. And like, a lot of people like didn't like to have their like to be forced on them. I'm like, I
like didn't like it either at the beginning, but then I think, like, once I got to college, and like
sounds it had been going on for a while I just had, like, just got used to it, you know? Because
like, I mean, it's just, almost, it was like, at that point, it's been going on for like, a year and a
half, almost two years. And so like at that point, it's just like, yeah, like it just like, it is what it is,
you know, just getting used to like living that way. And but yeah, I definitely like, like, the
masking like when it first was introduced was definitely a big deal. Because like, like, I mean,
even my like grandpa, like a lot of the older generations, like my grandparents and stuff like that,
that comment about like being a choice and like we're American, like we can do what we want.
Like, for a lot of the older generations, like my grandparents, like they really like had struggled
with that and like, why do you why do I have to wear this? Like, why is this not even like even
though like they're the most at risk, you know? Like they're the ones that really should be
wearing it. Because like they're like in their 70s and like yeah immunocompromised and like it's
like I think that was like I don't know I honestly want to say like That's why so many like older
people got sick is like they just didn't want it like I feel like younger to our younger generation
like didn't like it at first but like we were able to adapt better to it. Yeah, like older generations
who like I don't want to change and like they ended up getting really sick you know? So but
yeah
let's see.
So, how did you maintain like social connections and relationships during the pandemic? Was it
Do you feel like you lost
some connection with people and like, you just don't see. I don't know like how did having to
Basically, at least in my experience, it was you. I mean, you got shut down there was I was at
home. I was currently attending an out of state college, I had to go back home. And it was just
that was it. You know, like, if I didn't have any friends there, but yeah, I mean, I wasn't able to
connect with them. Did you feel like any of your, or social connections or whatever get affected?
Or how were you able to still? Yeah.
I think be on a contact. Yeah, that's a good question. I think it really just like everyone's sort of
just, like, condensed down like their core group of friends almost like being in like, high school
that was like, because like you would like in high school, you'd walk around and like, you know,
everyone and like, it was like, I mean, I went to a bigger high school, but like, I still knew a ton of
people. And like, I wouldn't say like, they were my best friends. But like, I had connections with
them, like on a day to day basis. And like, I don't want to COVID it. It really just shrunk down to
like, my basketball and my football friends really. And like my like, child, those are my childhood
friends that I've grown up with too. And like, but yeah, I definitely was weird. And like, it was very
true at that time. Because like my brothers were also like, back from college. They were they
were seniors or juniors to coming home from COVID Are they they were, they were like, they're
on spring break from college, and then college and let them go back either. Yeah. So they're,
and I was nice, because like, I hadn't seen them in a while. So like, I was lucky to like, have
them back. And like, it was really good. Like, it's almost like we're all back in like elementary
school. Everyone's back in the house. And my mom was hat like, at least happy about that. So I
have like my brother's there. But then keep t like, up with my friends. We did like some zoom
chats, which is like interesting. It's like a Friday night or like Saturday night and we'd like be on
Zoom or like, obviously, like played video games online with each other, doing things like that.
But like, yeah, there's a lot of the social elements like were like really changing like there was no
parties or like, was no like gatherings really besides like that one I told you about and then it
didn't end? Well. Just like Oh, great. Yeah, but yeah, we were supposed to zoom a little bit. And
like, that helped a lot. But you know, can't be like being with them. Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah, I had a similar situation like my brother came home to and everyone was just home. Yeah.
It was like nice for like the first like, like week or two because like, it just felt like a vacation. And
all of a sudden, like, you get past like, three weak point. And you're like, Oh, like this is like a
real deal. And like they eventually went back. But like, it wasn't to like, basically like late April,
like mid April. Yeah. And then they just like had to do because they like, they go on to the Naval
Academy. So they had some like military stuff to get back to. I'm not sure. And they were
definitely presented with a bunch of stuff being Yeah, government. Yeah, for sure. So yeah, but
it was nice, like having them home. But yeah, I think a lot of people had that too. And like,
siblings, were back home now. Yeah. Like, there was that first week of like, it was sort of okay,
like, we'll get through it. Let me look at our families here. And then it was just like, oh, like, this is
gonna,
like, I remember thinking, Oh, like this one is gonna last couple of months or two. And then now
it's been three years since Sure. Like, where does it go? Yeah, you know,
that get a good question. And for that, so do you feel like
you feel like in a sense, this pandemic almost strengthened your family connection? Having to
do that? You know, I know, they weren't there forever. Yeah. But I feel like, people were so
divided during this time, and there was so much tension, do you feel like in a way, this almost
was like, a good experience? Or how was like, how did your family like, what was the family
experience? Like? Did your parents like? Were they expressing like, their beliefs? Or how they
believe this should be handled? Or what was that kind of experience? Yeah, I mean, my mom
working in healthcare definitely had us more on like, the more fog on the protocols rule. And
like, I understand, like, it was some of the stories she had about like patients and different stuff.
And like, like her work got turned upside down, too. And so like, we were definitely like, what,
like, would fall out of the rules and stuff like my dad, like didn't want to unmask at first, but then
like, yeah, obviously does now and like, things like that. But yeah, I definitely think it
strengthened like family relationships. And like, I think a lot of people like turned back in on their
family, because there was just so much chaos going around. And there's like, people like
hoarding food and like, it was just like, you know, and, you know, I mean, it's crazy to think but
like, it sort of created things like my mom, we like we'd go grocery shopping, we'd wear our
masks and stuff. And like, see people were in like hazmat suits, like during the peak. I mean,
like, we'd come home and like, we'd like, Clorox wipe all the groceries, like even if they were
sealed, like we're wiping the box down. And it's like, this is a lot like what did we like? Is it really
like it was all unknown at the time, like some people were saying, oh, yeah, COVID can like
survive on cardboard for three days. There was like all these studies coming out and like you
were so much
It's like, so I feel like all that insecurity people like really turned back in on their families. Yeah.
Like, I think it also did sometimes affect, like, Family to Family Relationship, though, because
then you had like some families like really following the rules and like, not gonna have
gatherings the other families like, there's more breaking rules and like, obviously, like, it's good
and bad with that like, obviously a lot like if you broke rule like you're not terrible person but like,
you create a tension like that because then it's like, Oh, like that that was not following the rules.
Like we can't hang out with them. Like that kind of stuff, you know. But yeah, I think it's
strengthened family relationships, but made of like, even weakened, like family to family
relationships, just because yeah, there was just so much. Yeah.
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