Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ... Show more
Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ed
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Bashiru Kormah
Katie Clark 00:04
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University, and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional and higher ed. My
name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:26
My name BK Kormah, an alum of Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 00:31
Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you give consent to be
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:44
Yes, that's fine.
Katie Clark 00:46
So when did you graduate from Augsburg University?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
I graduated in 2019.
Katie Clark 00:53
Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently
studying in your graduate degree?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:01
I graduated from Osseo Senior High School. And then I went to Augsburg for my undergrad and
got my degree in International Relations and International Business. Graduated as the
university president in my junior year. So that was exciting. And then currently getting my
graduate degree in Sustainable International Development at Brandeis University in
Massachusetts.
Katie Clark 01:32
Wow. Great. So asking you to think back at your time at Augsburg were there concepts of the
citizen professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills that were discussed in
any of your classes or programs? And if so, which ones, if you remember?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:53
Yes. So I remember the LEAD Fellow Program. I'm also remember there were several
conversations I think with Dennis, I'm not sure of his name.
Katie Clark 02:06
Dennis Donovan.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:07
Yes. Regarding that citizen, professional, and also had leadership classes. I was also leadership
minor with Professor Elaine, and I'm forgetting the other professors name,
Katie Clark 02:22
Eschenbacher.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:24
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Katie Clark 02:34
Wonderful. So which of those experiences really stand out as being meaningful opportunities to
learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:49
Definitely the LEAD Fellows Program, because it was, it was very intentional with the trainings.
And then with every other all of the students have in your program. We had the same
conversation, and then we go out into the fields do our work together, discuss, learn more. So
that program specifically believe on did a good job of targeting that goal.
Katie Clark 03:14
Do you remember where your field placement was at?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:18
Yeah, gotta never forget, I'm still in contact with them, Banyan Community, that's where my,
my placement was, and I still have a very, very good and extensive relationship with those
folks. Even after I graduated from Augsburg, I was still there working with them, and they often
do recommendations for me. So yeah, it was Banyan Community.
Katie Clark 03:41
So did you feel like some of those LEAD Fellow experiences spoke to your coursework when you
were at Augsburg? Or did it feel somewhat disconnected?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:53
I think it is just the field of my studies. I was in international relations, international business,
and then being a leadership minor. So he just is really integrated really, really well. So I would
say a good connected. Excellent.
Katie Clark 04:09
So in what ways, if any, did the civic learning experiences while you were at Augsburg prepare
you for your professional role or your opportunities for civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
Yeah, like it prepared me really well, because right after that experience, I went directly into
the Peace Corps right after college. So I think I'll just paid attention and see, and this
conversation (about citizen professional) was just so deep in the guests because they were
coming. So I was like, you know, I think this would be great. So just really, you know, like, just
just concept I'm really wanting to learn more and dive more into it into really, really do similar
work.
Katie Clark 04:55
So do you feel like your experiences in the field were really what shaped your experiences
moving forward? Or would you say some of the presentations in by Dennis Donovan or Elaine
Eschenbacher, or that you mentioned? Did they really prepare you for post graduation life?
B
Bashiru Kormah 05:18
I would say it was called it was a collective experience I really helped shape my direction for,
you know, after graduation, you know, just being a part of the program. And then working with
other extremely gifted folks who are very passionate about doing work in the community. And
that's one conversation that we had with with Dennis, it's conversation, where we have some
high school students came into, and it was a very deep conversation. So this thing, just really
had me hungry, I guess, for more. And that's how I decided going to the Peace Corps today to
carry on similar work and be able to apply those leadership skills that I learned, you know, it
does, it does work, it's very awesome, you know, to be able to incorporate it into the work I had
to do. I felt very well equipped for the Peace Corps.
Katie Clark 06:16
Well, and so I'm, I'm just curious, given, you know, your extensive involvement in such
activities as the Peace Corps and being the president of the student body and all that. Were
you like that in high school as well? Are you just, is that just kind of how you, you know, you
always been or do you feel like Augsburg gave you different opportunities to develop those
skills in different ways?
B
Bashiru Kormah 06:46
Yeah, I think in high school, the only thing I did pretty much in high school was soccer, and the
Brooklyn Youth Council, like, which was a youth group that represented the youth within our
cities for living in Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So those are the two main activities I did.
And then, and then won the Act Six scholarship, and also, there was a lot that was similar to the
work, to see where you can do additional work as well. So coming to Augsburg really exploded
that, like I had an idea, but then just being a part of these programs, really, you know, exposed
it. Then working with Elaine, and I got nominated for the Newman Civic Fellow. So that really,
really, you know, that was a burst that I felt like I could soar.
Katie Clark 07:35
That's amazing. And I remember your name, I think you spoke at a an event.
B
Bashiru Kormah 07:39
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Katie Clark 07:42
Excellent. Well, have you been able to use your civic learning and community? Some of these
are a little bit redundant, but they're on purpose. So we're kind of asking the question in
different ways to maybe just kind of, for things a little more, but have you been able to use
your civic learning or community engagement experiences to affect decision making or be an
agent of change as a professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 08:03
Yes, so currently, I'm the youth director on the board for Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So
that work is, I'm able to take those experiences especially going to do some leadership, and
especially in the leadership course, courses, working with different folks. And then with the,
with the citizen professional, that was just so powerful for those conversation, even how nurses
you know, use their skills. It was it was deep. So like, for me, it just, it just kind of opened my
mind said that no matter what career I go into, have the opportunity to, you know, to be an
agent of change, regardless of if I'm in a position of power or not.
Katie Clark 08:57
Great. What connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and
civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 09:07
Oh, I see that as a deep one. So vocation, Augsburg, man, I just got me reminiscent of
freshman year. What's your vocation? What's your vocation? (laugh). So with that, I think just
the fact that my, my vocation has always been on doing development work, and it just fits in so
well with civic engagement. And just like this overall umbrella was citizen professional, so it's
like, so it all goes well together, you know, so I can see that. But even though my, my, my my
career path has shifted, because now you know, finance now - who would have thought? But
still, it's you know, I'm working from home too, you know, but I also help with this conflict
resolution, some of these things that we discuss, often, we always have been our work, you
know, there, there's always, you know, these things happen. But it's also awesome that these
skills, you know, to be incorporated into my, my professional life, and then knowing that this
also working on my vocation as well. Which is to do more development work internationally, or
wherever God leads me.
Katie Clark 10:34
I think I need to circle back in a few years and redo this to see where you're at. Do you see
yourself as a civic or citizen professional? If so, how do you describe that or explain it to others,
even if you don't use that specific term, like, do you see yourself as a citizen or citizen
professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 10:55
I see myself as a citizen professional. And that's something, is funny, because I was I was
ordained as pastor actually, honestly. And, and something I share with a folks, I was like, when
I, when I'm blessed, and I'm the General Overseer of my own church, I would create this, this
citizen professional culture, where you don't want to have to be within the church setting for
you to you know, be seen as doing God's work, you know, you can be you know, that citizen
professional mindset. And this to me, what it is, is you can be in any career field, but you can
still be an agent of change, and being a voice for the voiceless. And then incorporating that into
a church setting where you don't really have to be, you know, a pastor or deacon, you know,
you can just be whatever, you could be a doctor, and you will still be doing God's work by being
a citizen professional within your career, but being a good steward in your community and with
your client. So I don't have a specific as a definition of it, but I just have this idea in my head of
what it means to be a citizen professional, which is within your respective field, being an agent
of change, and still doing work that other other people are doing for your intention.
Katie Clark 12:25
That's great. Thank you. Um, so here's the question, and you can be completely honest. Is
there anything that you wish you learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't?
B
Bashiru Kormah 12:39
I wish like that, that term is something that always stuck with me. But I wish there was like this
class 101 on how to answer that question. "What is a citizen professional?" But the discussion I
think, is good. Like, I have this idea in my head like, this dream of, you know, having my own
church and using that model or the method, right, but I just don't know enough of it. You know,
so be like something I wish we really, we really dissected. So if you have any info, Katie, please
send it my way.
Katie Clark 13:14
The other, the last question really is, do you have anything that you want to share with us that I
haven't asked?
B
Bashiru Kormah 13:23
Yeah, I mean, like, that entire thing was great. To be honest. Like, the citizen professional, it
was like a movement, a huge movement. But maybe it was during my term, I feel like it didn't
have a lot of buzz. You know? So, um, something I wish is, it was it was very intentional, it was
integrated with all of the curriculum. Or that it was at least, even if it was just a required
course, or it was embedded in required courses. So the students know these terms, you know,
because, I mean, the work itself was just phenomenal.
Katie Clark 14:06
So being that you're at another graduate, you know, you're at another institution of higher ed,
do you see now being that you can compare the two any, any things that you wish Augsburg
would have done different, that you maybe have where you're at? Or do you see things that
you wish your new place had that Augsburg did, like, you know, now that you're kind of in an in
a new higher ed space?
B
Bashiru Kormah 14:33
Yeah, it's a little different because I'm a graduate student and I'm at home, so I'm not really
interacting with anyone. I just go to class and then I'm on my own, so that really skews my
perception on that particular question. But I can say that particular experience at Augsburg you
know, this one you know that my I always reminiscing on that experience which has shaped my
culture and my stature those settings. Because at Brandeis is you know, especially the program
I'm in it is mostly international students just all international students from all across the world.
So be those classes, it was mostly discussion, you know having this conversation. So when I
had the opportunity to share my answer, I'm not just thinking from this sole mindset, I'm
thinking as a citizen professional or as a global citizen. How am I gonna approach this question,
knowing that I have a bunch of diverse people with extremely diverse backgrounds. You know,
so it has impacted me a lot. It'll be nice to if this conversation was on a graduate level, to be
honest.
Katie Clark 16:03
Well, that concludes all the questions that I have for the interview. So this has been an amazing
opportunity to hear from your experiences, and I've learned a lot and I'm inspired truly so.
Yeah, so I'll end the recording now.
Show less
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, h... Show more
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, helped
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Emily Uecker
Katie Clark 00:02
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional on higher education.
My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg health comments. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
E
Emily Uecker 00:24
My name is Emily Uecker.
Katie Clark 00:28
Great. And can you also tell us? When did you or when did you graduate from Augsburg?
E
Emily Uecker 00:36
Oh, I graduated with my bachelor's in social work in 2015.
Katie Clark 00:42
And before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and
having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public.
E
Emily Uecker 00:52
Yes
Yes
Katie Clark 00:54
So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? And so you said you studied
social work at Augsburg. So where are you working now too? That would be great.
E
Emily Uecker 01:05
Sure. So I work as a special education social worker at Sojourner Truth Academy in North
Minneapolis. And then educational background, I did my bachelor's in Social Work at Augsburg,
Augsburg was my first choice for college, when I went. I grew up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota,
and knew I wanted some good engagement in the community and in an urban environment.
And so Augsburg was the top of my list. I then worked for a couple years after college and then
decided to go back for my masters but went down to Washington University in St. Louis, and
did my masters and social work there and missed the Twin Cities. So decided to move back.
Katie Clark 01:06
So thinking about your time at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional civic
engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed in your classes or programs that you were
involved with? And if so, do you remember which ones?
E
Emily Uecker 02:05
Yes, absolutely. I think all of those were discussed at some level of being a social work major of
civic leadership is a big part of that of how to engage in the community, but then also how to
engage at every level, I guess, I should say, in the community. So whether it's individuals,
groups, institutions, and then even politics and policy of that's all discussed in terms of being a
social worker, and how to create the best environment for people moving forward and stay true
to those values. I was also involved in the Bonner Leaders Program. And that was really
important for both civic engagement and civic leadership, because that was discussed very
often. And then interfaith scholars as well as that scholarship program. And we engaged in the
community through a spiritual lens, so talked about different spiritual traditions and how that
contributes to our understanding of what what civic engagement means.
Katie Clark 03:15
So you're naturally engaged person yourself? Great. So which experiences if any standout is
meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across both your coursework
and the community engaged learning?
E
Emily Uecker 03:34
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
tell people were some of the best things I did during college. Bonner gave me the chance, I
think it's called like the LEAD Fellows now or something, but they gave me the chance to have
internships in the community from basically the moment I stepped foot on campus. It was a
program I entered my freshman year, I had engaged with people working at other agencies.
And so it was not only being able to have that support of being placed right away at a
internship at a nonprofit, and getting work study money to do that. But then having the support
to come back to of working with people at the Sabo Center and having that supervision but
then also having monthly meetings where I talk to people who are doing internships at
nonprofits across the Twin Cities. And so that not only helped my perspective of seeing the
different ways, one can be involved in civic engagement. It wasn't all nonprofits, somewhere,
government some were other sectors but it was all related to the community and so hearing
the about different people's experiences, and then having that experience myself was so
important. And then also just that network to go into when I was looking for jobs is being able
to say, Oh, hey, I know I didn't work at the Wilder Foundation. But I know people who did and
can talk to them about the work that they do, or whether it be housing or food shelf programs,
or different things that you kind of need to do as a social worker of coordinating all those
services. Having those connections really helped me. And then interfaith scholars stuck out
more so for the how the spiritual component connected, and I think that was really important,
too. I think that was a good grounding in that work, of kind of bringing it back internally of
what's your motivation? Why do you want to do this for the world?
Katie Clark 06:01
Excellent. And this, you kind of already answered this. So if something else comes to mind, let
me know. But in what ways did civic learning experiences that Augsburg prepare you to be
more ready for professional roles or civic leadership?
E
Emily Uecker 06:17
Sure. So again, like I talked about, seeing the different sectors was really important. I think
Augsburg also provided the groundwork with different student groups to be engaged. So I was
involved some with Students for Racial Justice, I was also really encouraged politically at
Augsburg, like a lot of college campuses. I think that's when people are starting to get involved
in politics, and was excited about that. So I ended up working for the DFL for a semester of
getting students. We were trying to increase voter turnout for the 2014 midterms, was the
main purpose and so engaging, really literally, democracy that way. And I bring that up,
because as someone that, I think, part of the time during college, I was like, Yeah, I want to do
like these big policy things. I'm going to be an organizer, I'm going to do this and then having
an organizing job and was just like, No, no, I don't. So being able to have that space, Augsburg
to kinda like try and experiment was really good. So then when I did go into the workforce, I
knew some of what, okay, this is what I'm looking for. And this is what I'm not. And that
obviously takes time, but to figure out in a more concrete way, but having the space to do that.
Katie Clark 07:53
So what is your job look like? Now, now that you're, you know, a social worker, and you sit in
the school, right?
E
Emily Uecker 08:01
So my title is a special education social worker, I'm at a pre-K through eight charter school. And
I have a caseload of mostly third through eighth graders. They are all students who have
individual education plans, so qualify for special education. I run individual and group behavior
and social skills classes. And at a lot of schools, they'll have special education, teachers running
social skills and behavior skills more. And part of the reason that the school has a social worker
doing it is a lot of students who get diagnosed with emotional behavioral disorder, a lot of that's
the source of trauma. And so having someone that has that social work background, to be able
to work with them and recognize that trauma, so I do that individual work. I also do a lot of
communicating with parents and referring them to additional mental health supports, outside
of school, always talking to teachers. So it's everything from doing schedules and behavior
trackers for kids with helping them to stay on track to talking about things going on in life to
having a third grade girls group where we talk about mean girls and all the things that come
with that.
Katie Clark 09:29
So do you feel like some of the experiences you had had you had at Augsburg prepared you for
the role you're in now or does it seem kind of disconnected?
E
Emily Uecker 09:40
I think it definitely connects. I think that having the social work experience was really important
of that bachelor's of Social Work. Especially being someone who did both a bachelor's and a
master's of a lot of people do their masters in social work without having a bachelor's when it
first if they do psychology or something else, but having that bachelor's really helped me to see
different sides of social work. And so right now I kind of walk the line but between clinical and
generalist. I've done a plan to do clinical track, or get that full licensure. And really, it's my time
at Augsburg that's helped me sort of stay grounded and figure out how to set those boundaries
and how to figure that out because it let me look at everything that social workers do. And had
I just gone for my master's, it would have been specialized right away. So that was really
important in my education, but then also having that on the ground experience of just being
able to say, going in that I've worked in youth spaces for almost a decade now is huge. And like
there's a lot that I've learned on the ground, like anybody who works with kids or works with
people will tell you if it just takes time to find your rhythm and different things. And so it was
really important that I had those experiences in college as well.
Katie Clark 11:24
Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect
decision making or be an agent of change as a professional and if so how?
E
Emily Uecker 11:37
So one way is just within my school of being able to advocate for students, I've been here for
school wide policies that are really important, or set up my own structure, if there's a lack of
structure. Because we're a small independent school, sometimes there's not the same level of
across the board procedures that there would be in a large district. So being able to do that,
and set that is a big way that I affect change within my workplace. I think, also, I'm part of the
Minnesota school social workers association, and we just had our Day on the Hill recently. So I
actually had the opportunity to talk to Melissa Hortman, she's a representative, and she's
currently the Speaker of the House for the state of Minnesota, about increasing funding for
school support professionals within schools.
Katie Clark 12:52
So this is kind of a dense question, but what connections if any, do you see among your
professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Very Augsburg type question, right?
professional identity, vocation and civic leadership. Let me think. And it's okay if you don't see
a connection.
E
Emily Uecker 13:23
So I definitely see a connection between the three. I feel like social work is something I'm good
at and youth work in general, there's something I'm good at. And something that has that both
like enjoyment and skill, alignment or spiritual and skill alignment that comes with vocation. I
think that so my job is something that's within my vocation, and then I do have civic
engagement and civic leadership within that. I think one thing I will say about vocation that I've
come to see since my time at Augsburg, I think I got very wrapped up in this idea of your job is
who you are. And so that's something I'm working on personally right now of trying to move
away from that, some. Because I think that leads to burnout, to a big extent of I am more than
just my job title. And figuring out what that means in my spiritual, social, personal life is
important to me as well as I think that vocation can be a wonderful thing. I think that having a
job that has a component of civic engagement is wonderful, and something that my heart is
definitely in. And I also understand that it's a privilege. I was in a situation that I didn't have to
chase, what was going to make me a certain amount of money or certain amount of financial
security, and had a little more flexibility with that, even though obviously, bills are still a thing,
and money is important. I don't have to take care of my parents, like, some of my classmates
did, or I don't have children on my own, like some of my classmates did. And so I see it as a
huge privilege to be able to be in a space where I'm doing something that feels like I'm part of
a community, and it's very much aligned with my heart and for people.
Katie Clark 15:55
Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if you only use that specific term?
And if you do, how would you describe that or explain that to others?
E
Emily Uecker 16:09
Sure, so I think that the field of social work really does this well. It's this idea that policy affects
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
engaged, politically is important to me, not only for, for my job, but outside of it as well. I see
myself as a citizen professional, because I choose to since I work in Minneapolis, I also choose
to live in Minneapolis. And that's where I vote. I make sure that who I'm paying attention to and
talking to, when I talk to representatives as well, or when I pay attention to local elections, like
city council elections, if I was paying attention to my home ward, and I was paying to the
attention to the ward, where I work. It was important to me to see how that would affect the
people that I work with. And then I also think of it as in some ways, a form of self care is being
involved in those policy things. I see kids every day, that don't have a lot of agency and some
of the things they've been through. And their families don't even have a lot of agency and
some of the things they've had to go through if it's affected by bigger forces, like policy. And so
for my own view, on my profession, it's important for me to know those policies and be
engaged with them, because I can't change it in a second. Like, I want to.
Katie Clark 18:16
Yeah, I think one thing that I'm kind of finding through this process is I think a lot of people and
you just described it greatly, but a lot of people are really being civic or citizen professionals,
but maybe the words don't resonate with people as as, as the actual terms, right, so you think
of any other terminology that could really fit around this that you've heard that would work to
to really describe a citizen, professional or civic engagement? Or do you think that sticking with
these terms, moving forward is fine?
E
Emily Uecker 18:54
I can see people getting hung up on the word citizen. I don't know. It's hard to like, condense it
to a term. So I think there's some and I'm sure that's what you've struggled with, of like, I think
there's something to be said for asking about, like, how people are involved with policy, in
terms of their profession, or maybe even just like, Are you a politically engaged professional,
because I think there's a lot of discourse around that to have like, that's expanded a lot in a lot
of spaces. Of like, the politics is personal and I don't know.
Katie Clark 20:05
Is there anything you wish you would have learned at your time at Augsburg that you didn't
learn? or is there other opportunities or experiences you wish you had to prepare you for your
current career?
E
Emily Uecker 20:19
I think that vocation piece can be tricky. I think how it was taught at the time that I was at
Augsburg, which, again, was now several years ago, so might be different now. But at the time,
it was very much that push for vocation seemed like your identity was wrapped up in it. And so
I think ways to find your identity outside of that, and exploring spirituality, and whatever else
outside of that is important too. Your work in the world doesn't have to be the work you're paid
to do.
Katie Clark 21:03
Very good. Is there anything else you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
E
Emily Uecker 21:11
Um, I guess one thing I'll say so I mentioned I went to Washington University for grad school,
which is like this, you know, top 20 for undergrad, big social work program, and I missed
Augsburg so much when I was there. It was tough to be at a social work program at a school
that wasn't liked by the community. They were seen as, and rightfully so, as just like a big
resource up and sort of elitist entity there. I missed Augsburg, even though they get it wrong,
sometimes even though there is like, the time it's taken for Augsburg to shift to be more
civically engaged, I think that it really does try its hardest to live up to its mission and its
values. And I missed that and appreciate that.
Katie Clark 22:17
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time for this interview. That concludes our interview.
So I just want to say thanks again.
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