Oral History Interview with Melvin James,
2018
Tue, 3/9 10:17AM
32:59
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, homeless, ai, home, shelters, stayed, helped, commons, minnesota, salvation army, life,
gon, passed, illinois, place, melvin, er, person, nephews, mary jo
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Kathleen C... Show more
Oral History Interview with Melvin James,
2018
Tue, 3/9 10:17AM
32:59
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, homeless, ai, home, shelters, stayed, helped, commons, minnesota, salvation army, life,
gon, passed, illinois, place, melvin, er, person, nephews, mary jo
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Kathleen Clark, Melvin James
Kathleen Clark 00:00
Well, hello, my name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor at Augsburg University.
Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
M
Melvin James
00:09
My name is Melvin James.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:12
My name is Samantha Gibson. I'm an AmeriCorps worker at Health Commons just
listening in.
Kathleen Clark 00:21
So thank you for joining us for the oral history project of the Health Commons.
M
Melvin James
00:25
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 1 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Thank you for having me.
Kathleen Clark 00:26
Yeah. Before we get started, I would like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having the interview recording stored at Augsburg University which will be made
available to the public.
M
Melvin James
00:39
Agreed.
Kathleen Clark 00:40
Alright, great. So basically, kind of, can you tell me where you grew up and who you called
family?
M
Melvin James
00:48
Well, I grew up in Illinois, it’s a little country called Sun River Terrace, out in the country, of
Illinois, Kankakee, Illinois. And I’ve been raised there, I was born and raised there. Well, I’ve
been born in Columbus, Mississippi, but I’ve been raised in Illinois since I was what five, six
years old. Out in the country, went to grade school in Momence, Illinois, and uh, went to
junior high in Momence, Illinois, then I graduated in Kankakee, Illinois in Westview High
School in Kankakee, Illinois. That’s basically how I grew up. And also mom, you know, she
was really awesome, she had a lot of survival skills, she raised, uh, eighteen kids. It was
challenging for her, you know, by herself, you know but, along the way we got split up, you
know, but we still stayed there as one family, you know. Everybody got split up, after they
got older and stuff, you know, like they, life started to take a toll, tear her down, but she
still stayed strong, she was in church and stuff. She was, she was a holy one, you know. She
survived, she helped us survive. She gave me all the survival skills that she figured that I
needed, coming up in life, you know. I know how to cook, I know how to clean, I know how
to do everything. Everything the way she showed me.
02:32
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 2 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Kathleen Clark 02:33
So, being that you grew up in Illinois, how did you end up here in Minnesota? After my
mom passed, after she passed at 82 years old, she passed at 82, and I'm the youngest
male of the family, you know, so. Everybody's grown in my family now, so, you know. So I
came to Minnesota after she passed and stuff, so. Everybody just grew up and went their
own way, and you know, I was 45 years old when I came here, so, you know, I’m 58 now.
Life was kinda difficult for me when I moved to Minnesota, but, like my mom always told
me, you can make it in your hometown, you can make it anywhere, you know, it all
depends on what you going to another place to venture off to- to do, you know. Cause, if
you gonna do bad or wrong, or anything, you might as well stay in your hometown, you
know. Cause you gon get the same results no matter where you go, you know, so. I used all
of my survival skills to help me come along in Minnesota, you know. Uh, it has some faults,
about Minnesota, but, you know, it is what it is, you know. It’s partially my hometown, I had
to struggle, I had to crawl before I walk. I’m on bended knees now. So was it a relationship
that brought you here, or was it a job, or?
M
Melvin James
04:24
After my mom passed, I was, I lived with my mom. And, she stayed in the house by herself.
I had to, when she passed, I had to go. But I never depended on my other sisters and
brothers, the house and me, you know, they helped me through, you know, I counted that
on my own, you know, so I was homeless back home, in my hometown. I was sleeping out
in the parks, and staying in the shelters and stuff, you know. When I was really there and
not here and stuff I got kicked out the shelters, I ended up having to live out on the streets,
you know. But along comes with that, we had a family reunion one year and my nephew,
he lives up here in Minnesota, he came down and I was sleeping in his brother’s car, well I
was sneaking around sleeping in his brother’s car at night, you know, he didn't know I was
sleeping in his car, you know. So I guess, I guess they got together and like man, uncle need
help, you know, uncle need help, we need to, uh, get, you know, he’s our mentor, you know,
so yeah he need help. So my nephew put me in the car and come on let's go to Kmart so I
can buy this and buy that. So along with that I was drinking, and I got a little tipsy, and I
think I might have fell asleep in the car. And when I woke up I was in Minnesota. I woke up,
I was back in Minnesota.
Kathleen Clark 06:12
So how did you feel homelessness was, where you were at compared to when you showed
up in the Twin Cities?
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 3 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Melvin James
06:23
It was kinda fair, I believe. It was more, it was more unity back then, you know, when I was
homeless in ‘99, and 2000, my mom passed away in 2002. So, it was similar. It was bad. I
mean it’s not like the shelter like the Salvation Army out there, you know, you have people
wiggin’ out, buggin’ you, telling you what you can do and what you can’t do, you know,
disrespecting you, and you know it was, it was, it’s a lot of unity in the Salvation Army back
home, you know.
Kathleen Clark 07:07
Well, it sounds like relationships are really important to you. So did you, do you still keep in
contact with your siblings at all?
M
Melvin James
07:15
Oh yeah, I’m going home for Mother’s Day this year, I ain’t been home in 18 years for
Mother’s Day. You know, but I’m going home. I told my sisters there I'm coming home, they
like oh, it's about time! You know, but, you know, I always go home twice a year, anyway,
you know. Usually, about five years, six years back, only time I showed up at home was for
Fourth of July. I can't get past a holiday like Christmas or New Year's or Fourth of July
without somebody passing the way my path, so. I'm down to four sisters and two brothers.
And my oldest brother is still living and I'm the baby brother, still living, you know.
Everybody else they’ve passed on, you know, so. My nieces and nephews they kind of look
up to me, but my oldest brother, he stays in Florida. He stays in Florida so I’m the closest
Uncle around them that they’ve got. So, I make sure that all my nieces and nephews know
who’s Uncle Melvin. Yeah. When I go home they be like my oldest nieces and my second
nieces and my third nieces cause I’m a great-great-great-great Uncle, you know. My first
oldest niece and nephew, I got about 25 older nieces and nephews and I got about 36
great great nieces and nephews and I got 52 great great great nieces and nephews. So
they all look up to me, you know. And when I go home they like oh, Uncle Melvin. When
they tell their kids I’m comin’ home oh they’re gonna get spoiled. Cause when I be the
babysitter, I let ‘em do whatever they want to. If they fall down and skin their knees and
elbows I just laugh at them, I’m like get up and try it again. You gon say ouch one day, you
know. I keep up with my siblings.
Kathleen Clark 09:23
So when you ended up in Minnesota, how long do- were you living without a place to call
home?
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 4 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Melvin James
09:30
Oh for almost a year and a half, two years. I think about, yeah about two years, cause I
got my place at, where I'm standing now, I got my place at ’04, or ’05. I stayed on the
Salvation Army, well I stayed with my nephew for a year, a year and a half. Until he
started waiting. Then, I didn't know which way to go. I didn't know nothing about Mary
Jo's or Simpson’s, or any other of these places, you know, I just, basically just, followed the
crowd. You know and the crowd showed me my way. But uh, after I found out where Mary
Jo’s was, you know, I was kinda set, you know, I was laid back then, uh, it’s how I got my
place and I think in ’04, ’03, or ’05 I think I got my place, and stuff, you know.
Kathleen Clark 10:37
So when you got your place did you have to be on a wait list?
M
Melvin James
10:41
Well, basically, how I got my place, it was, it was a guy that was a community manager
over there and he brought 40 application over to Central Lutheran Church. And he gave
everybody the application, he did like, all you all gotta do is pass the background check,
I’m not gonna charge y’all first month rent if you pass it. So he moved all half of 40 in and
I'm only one still there. Out of the 40.
Kathleen Clark 11:20
Now recently. You almost had to leave your house or apartment
M
Melvin James
11:24
Yeah, I’ve been in my apartment 18 years and I was bell ringer for the- I’ve been a bell
ringer for the Salvation Army since I used to be homeless, I used to stay down there. I used
to bell ring. And that’s how I used to pay my rent and, uh, donate my plasma and stuff,
before I got on the fix income. I got on the fix income in 2015. And I didn’t know that I had
to turn in my check stubs and, you know, let them know I was working. I thought it was
peace work, you know. But along the way they tax me, you know, they took the whole, I
was making $750 a month. They went back three years, so they gon tax me, what I mean
by tax me they gon, I had to pay back my earnings that I’d made, so that was 750 dollars
and all they would give me was 43 dollars a month out of my check. So I almost lost my
house, you know. And what I didn’t understand was, I thought my housing was 30% of my
income and I figured that I didn’t have the money that I usually get, I figured that 30%, I
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 5 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
thought my income, my rent should go down, you know, but it was gonna go down, but I
had to go all the way through the red tape for it to go down. You know, so. I winged myself
outta that, you know, you helped me out, this Central Lutheran helped me out, God’s
Mercy helped me out, you know. That brought be back up off bended knee, cause I was
about to get down on one knee, you know, along the way y’all helped me out. You know, I
appreciate y’all you know, got help, you got courage and got understanding. You know I
believe that’s, that’s fair that’s, you know, that’s fair love, you know? Fair love.
Kathleen Clark 13:38
Now earlier today you were talking about how people end up, you know, being in the
emergency shelter like Salvation Army should be a place to be for a moment, but not a
place to live.
M
Melvin James
13:54
Right
Kathleen Clark 13:55
Why do you feel like it’s turned into more of a place that people are kind of stuck in living
for years on end? Do you think that's changed, do you think it's the same, and why do you
think that's a problem?
M
Melvin James
14:10
Well, see now that's a problem cause people looking for a way out of life, you know you
know they just wanna live off the land, you know. Your courage is to upgrade yourself, you
know, to monitor what you do through life, you know. Life ain’t handed to you on a silver
spoon, you know. Some people just take advantage of that, you know. I think some people
might have gave up on uh gave up life, you know, but they still got their mind to think, you
know. I don't see no way, no how that a person with six senses can be homeless over 10 to
20 years, you know. I don't, you know, I just can't bear that in my mind. You know, you
know, why would you give up life, you know, you know, but I mean, living in the shelter is
formed to help you come off bended knee, you know, not for you to basically this is my
home. You know, this is not your home, really, you know, it's just a foundation for you to
come to, you know to help you so you won't be as poor it is as you wanna live, you know.
You can live a lot richer being poor, you know, and to be poor and to be poor, you know,
to be poor and to be poor. Because, uh, I heard a person tell me one time, I heard a person
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 6 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
say that there ain’t no such thing as homeless, you know, because you got all of these
shelters that are housing you and feeding you, you know, if you got a place to go get a
meal, you’re not homeless. You know, homeless is I think homeless is a situation where
they don't have no bare bones, no, no shelters, or you know where you have to live off the
land, you know, but if you gotta a place where you can go and shower, change clothes
and stuff like that, you know. I heard this person say that. There ain’t no homeless, you
know, it just, it’s just, basically you’re just without. Without things, proper things, that you
outta be common to. You know. And uh, I don’t know, it’s just, you know.
Kathleen Clark 16:51
It almost sounds like houseless versus homeless. Right?
M
Melvin James
16:55
Right.
Kathleen Clark 16:59
So how did you end up hearing about the nurses at Central or the Health Commons? How
did you first come here and how did you hear about it?
M
Melvin James
17:09
Well, like I said, you know, back in 2003, 2005, when I got my homeless spot, I found out
about Central Lutheran Church. I used to follow where people go to be there, you know,
whether you used to go or be, you know, I used to follow the crowd, but I always stuck to
myself, you know, I'm always the outside looking in, you know. I see something good, you
know, I go investigate it, check it out, see if its right for me, you know. And when I came up
on Central Lutheran, you know, I’m like, this a place where peoples intervene and
understand how it is to be homeless, you know. Cause somewhere along the way some
peoples have came up on the, uh, original back by coming to the church. And, I think uh
some peoples, I think some churches love to give back, you know, cause, I guess they have,
everybody have a family that go through, you know, trials and tribulations, you know.
They understand about how a person can be vulnerable, you know, uh, uh, I think uh,
without things that they grew up with, things that they grew out of, you know, because,
uh… these churches, have helped, I mean, if you enlighten yourself on and understand
about what a church is, you know, it’ll help you, you know, it will help you, you know, you
just, I mean it ain’t gon be in the order that you want it to be, you know, but you gotta
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 7 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
improvise the situation that they in, you know. Cause they have life after this too, they
have a family they have to raise, you know. You not their only responsibility, you know, you
have to bring responsibility to the table too, you know. You just can’t take on, just can’t
accept all of their responsibility for you, you know, you have to bring, you gotta bring
some responsibility to the table.
Kathleen Clark 20:03
So what are some reasons that you or other people come to the nurses at Central?
M
Melvin James
20:09
Well, when I started coming to you guys, I had a need, you know, not a physical, mental
need, nothing like that, you know, but I can feel the enjoyment, you know, from you guys,
you know, I can feel the life, you know. The light that you, that y’all share, you know, with
each and every one of us, you know. And some people, you know, they, I think some
people just ain’t understand it, but I do, you know. I know what I like, you know, and if I run
into a situation where somebody is talking, you know, angry or big, uh, you know, being
above life, you know, I don’t deal with it, you know. You going talking to arrogant, you
know, miss me, you know, miss me with that because I can talk arrogant too, but that ain’t
gonna lead us back to stage one. But I can feel, I can feel enjoyment, you know. When I
met you guys, you know I used to- didn’t say nothing. You know I was always a closed
mouth, you know. I was always a closed mouth, but I got to learning y’all and y’all got to
showing me both, how y’all feel about a person and what y’all got to feed a person, you
know. Got that understanding, you know all that. Then I started opening up, yeah. Since I
am a joker, you know, I like to joke, you know. I like to start my conversation off with a
joke, you know to get to the real, real thing that I really need to talk to you about, to ask
you about, you know.
Kathleen Clark 22:20
Well, so, how do you think we could better welcome people in this space, or do people feel
welcomed, or how can we do that better? Well, I think people, I think good peoples, well
everybody’s good you know, everybody’s good. You can take the good with the bad, the
bad with the good, but I think y’all is more, more, more of a slice of cake, you know, more
of a slice of cake. Once you taste your cake you taste how sweet it is, you just go keep
inviting yourself back for more and more and more, you know, to get another slice, you
know. Get another slice, you know. And uh. Y’all a good welcoming at. Y’all good. I mean,
it’s, when you come in here, most people like, I don’t know, they just like to be around you
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 8 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
guys. They like to be around you guys, you know. Well, I do have a lot of students who
work in-patient nearby in different hospitals and see some folks that are here that they
often see like in the ER and say that people often act different when they are here versus
in the ER setting. What do you think that's about, why do you think that people might act
different in the ER, versus coming in and asking for blood pressure or something, in this
setting?
M
Melvin James
23:55
It’s because they, they feel more comfortable around you, you know. I mean I’m quite sure
they feel comfortable in the ER, but you have all of these moving pictures, you know,
moving around, you know, and you don't know which, which, what picture to point the
finger at, you know. Here, you ain’t got to point the finger, you know, it’s just nothing but
love, you know. It’s just something about you guys and y’all area, you know, that draws
attention and everybody just want to be around, you know, around the nurses, you know,
because I believe y’all both down to earth, you know, you ain’t got too many pictures to
point a finger at, you know, you get, you know, and some people just can’t, just can’t take
no for an answer. And since I've been coming in here, what y’all use as a word no, it gives
a lot of people strength, you know, y'all don’t use the word no as a mean thing or an angry
thing, you know, but you know, I guess in the ER you know, you know, it's like, you know,
they be saying it to you in an arguing way, you know, so you feel not capable of being
helped. You know, you just being like a Guinea pig that’s being used, you know, and here,
y'all, y'all filter out all the, they’ll try to filter out all the weakness that somebody come and
talk to you about. You try to help them, you know, mentor their lives, you know. And I, I
think that's a good thing, you know, everybody just feels warm and welcome around here.
I know I do, you know. That’s why I come in here I do my leisure, that’s why I come in here.
It’s like, it’s just like, it’s like y’all is, y’all are like my new mentors, you know, in life, you
know, every time I come in here, I'm not looking for nothing. I ain’t looking for no handouts
or, you know, I'm just looking for construction, you know, construction, you know, that
makes my day, makes my next hours go, you know, not crazy but, you know, go wild and
loose, and understanding, you know, that's why I come in here, you know. I guess about- if
Mondays, Thursdays, if I sleep over nine o’clock, after ten o'clock, if I miss not coming
through here, I’m like, oh man my day gon be rough, because I didn't get to come over to
meet my peoples, you know, they give me enjoyment in life, you know, they don't tell me
no all the time, you know.
Kathleen Clark 26:49
So you volunteered here a couple, many times, actually. So, how is it for you when you
volunteer?
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, 2018
Page 9 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Melvin James
26:57
It was nice, you know, it was nice, I mean I get answered some questions that I couldn't
answer, you know and people come to you, and you know, and look for answers, you
know. Look for that certain question. You know they got to hear those certain words, you
know, that you can provide for them, you know. And sometimes I- but I enjoyed
volunteering, I enjoyed volunteering. I mean it helped me out, you know, it helped me out,
and I understand how peoples are- you know, how I, I am, you know. It helped me out, you
know, with my mental stage.
Kathleen Clark 27:38
So what do you think we could do better in the Health Commons?
M
Melvin James
27:42
I really couldn’t say, right now y’all, right now I think y’all, right now I think y’all are
complete. You know, whatever you think that you can offer us, you know, it’ll be complete,
you know. Right now, everything is, to me, it’s complete. I can’t see, go around and see no
faults, that y’all ain’t serving the peoples well, and stuff, y’all serving the people just, you
know, just as promised that’s needed.
Kathleen Clark 28:30
Some people have said things like we should have more days or we should do outreach or
things like that, but, do you think that we need to do more or is the two days fine? Well,
two days, an extra day wouldn’t be bad, you know, an extra day wouldn’t be bad. It’s the
people- I mean, try an extra day and if the people show up, you know, the people have to
show up, you know. So what do you think some of the biggest barriers are for people who
are experiencing homelessness or marginally house to access things around health,
whether it's healthcare or get basic needs met, like, what do you think the biggest barriers
are? I believe, I think uh, most people need to be talked to, but they won’t- some people,
like think this, they kickin theyself bout to slip into a mental state and they come, they
hoping they will come that y’all guys are here to help them be positive, you know, before
they slip into that mental state, you know, and uh, I think they, they count on you guys,
you know, I think they really do, you know. Because like I said, you know, when I miss a
day, my day, I’m saying, I’m just like, I missed out on a whole, I missed out on a whole lot of
stuff, you know. So you know that we have a lot of nurses who volunteer and students. So
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, Page
2018 10 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
if you could tell them one thing when they're coming in that they should think about doing
when they're working the folks when we are open, what's one thing that the nurses or
volunteers should be thinking about?
M
Melvin James
30:34
Well, if they first time, they’ll think about, they’ll think everybody that you looking to would
say if they first time. You know, if they first time. You just, you know, just follow the good,
you know, just listen to it. Listen to the voice, you know, of a person, you know, and, you
know, don’t challenge it, just listen and say, ok, this sounds well enough. It sounds well
enough, you know.
Kathleen Clark 31:08
That's all the questions that I have. Is there anything that you want to add that we didn't
ask? Sam, did you have a question?
M
Melvin James
31:22
Well, me, I like coming here, for once, you know. Like I said, when I miss a day, when I miss
a Monday or a Thursday, I’m like- even when I be going out of town, you know, like, like,
I'm going home for Mother's Day and I'm leaving on the ninth, then Imma be, my mind
gonna be like, oh, man. What did they do, you know, aw man, what did they doing, you
know. I miss what makes me excited, you know, and when you miss something that makes
you excited it seems like the whole day is just ruined, you know. Because you missed the
magic, you missed the feeding part, the gross part, the education part, you know, it seems
like you just missed something. Other than that, you know, I’m well off, I’m happy. I’m bout
complete now. I’m bout complete with you guys. I just- Y’all just wonderful. Y’all just really
wonderful.
Kathleen Clark 32:35
Well this has been really fun because you're such a quiet person. So to hear your thoughts
has been great. So thank you for taking the time to talk with us and share your input on
Health Commons and what we should do better. So.
M
Melvin James
32:51
Alright, whatever, whatever will make the well water clean enough.
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, Page
2018 11 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Oral History Interview with Melvin James, Page
2018 12 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 10:18AM
36:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
kyrgyzstan, heart, isaac, human, augsburg, god, lives, people, life, human beings, minneapolis, fact,
commons, suffering, began, health, reaches, continue, minnesota, pandemic
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Aksana M
... Show more
Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 10:18AM
36:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
kyrgyzstan, heart, isaac, human, augsburg, god, lives, people, life, human beings, minneapolis, fact,
commons, suffering, began, health, reaches, continue, minnesota, pandemic
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Aksana M
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé. I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Central Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
A
Aksana M
00:17
Thank you. My name is Aksana Muratalieva. And I am a native for Kyrgyzstan, born on
March 26 1973, in the capital city formerly known as Frunze, and currently Bishkek, which
is the capital of a beautiful, mountainous country of Kyrgyzstan.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:45
Okay, thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to
being interviewed and having this interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be
used and available to the public.
A
Aksana M
00:59
I am absolutely honored and delighted to be a part of this auspicious opportunity, which is
with the Augsburg University Central Health Commons program. Thank you.
Aksana Muratalieva: Oral History 2021
Page 1 of 10
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 01:14
Thank you. Okay, let's get into it. So can you tell me where you grew up and who you call
family.
A
Aksana M
01:22
As I had mentioned earlier, I was born on March 26 1973, which makes me as of today of
48 years of age. I was born in my mother says I was born in a small village of shoberg at
the outskirts of my country, Kyrgyzstan. And in fact, I was born as a premature baby over
seven months old, whom doctors kind of proclaimed that I wouldn't survive, but here I am,
fourty eight years older. So and I grew up and matured, which means I got my high school
education then my university degree in English language and literature at the Kyrgyz
State National University in the capital city of Bishkek. So and then later at the age when
I was 27 years old, that makes it September 2000. That's when I got an admission to the
program in Human Resource Development at the University of Minnesota here in
Minneapolis. And my family, my mother Canalabou and my father Jyaumprsho. So they
are very senior age right now. My father is 79 years old and my mother is 69 years old. So
me and my son have just returned from our international trip to Kyrgyzstan, and stayed
there for two months. So my family are my mom and dad, they're in good health. Thank
you God. And I do have an older sister, Inyerha, two years older than I am then I'm the
second one. After me I have two younger brothers, Azad and Bauckut. One of them is up
here in the United States, lives this assembly in Burnsville, the state of Minnesota and my
younger brother Bauckut, who is 43 years old. Right now him and his family and children
they live in Bishkek Kyrgyzstan.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:40
Okay, thank you for sharing. Um, could you tell me about how you got involved with Street
Voices of Change?
A
Aksana M
03:49
All thank you I so I believe that it is truly a hand of Almighty God. I'm really beginning to
delve into is our Almighty creator. And every human being in fact, is created in his likeness
and image. So I am honored to have met a very distinguished gentleman. His name is
Paul and I met him about a week ago at the seven a.m daily mass, Monday through
Friday at the Basilica of St. Mary. And we began to speak about the social issues and he
wholeheartedly invited me to this remarkable meeting this morning, every Thursday at
8:30am with hot breakfast served, of the Street Voices of Change. And here I am a week
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after the whole credit I owe entirely to of course God and he is using Paul as his mighty
and very active hand in bringing People whose hearts are on you know, painful with the,
you know, devastation the whole humanity of the earth is going through right now. So
God is using Paul and right now meeting remarkable gentle men Isaac yourself. And here I
am being interviewed for to the remains in the history of humanity.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:23
I'm so glad you're a part of this history. Thank you. And will you be coming back to Street
Voices of Change?
A
Aksana M
05:29
Absolutely.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:30
We will be seeing more of you at Health Commons?
A
Aksana M
05:32
Every meeting, I just will have to excuse myself because I just booked an airline ticket for
my 12 year old son and myself. So we are flying God willing, of course, this coming Sunday,
July 25. The 21, two from Minneapolis to Las Vegas, we are our family, the Deloris' and our
cousins, Robin and Jacquelene. Are patiently waiting on us to join and we all are going
camping. To lake Sacco and Yosemite Park and all those places. And after that, about two
weeks planned for, we will come back and this will be the first you know, breakfast
meeting, I will be jump right in from the airplane.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:20
Okay. Well, we'll be excited to see you back then. So to switch the topic a little bit, I'd like
to ask you, what did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for
you now, because of COVID-19.
A
Aksana M
06:36
Thank you, Isaac, this is quite heavy for the heart. And for the mind subject. Speaking for
myself, I am the kind of person who does count the blessings. But then, last year, the
whole world turned upside down. We, including myself and my son, we have been locked
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in into a tight environment of our beautiful, of course blessed, you know, one bedroom
apartment with the windows overlooking, you know, the Basilica of St. Mary. But due to
strict guidelines, and, you know, desire to keep ourselves safe and good health, and our
neighbors we live on fifth floor of the historical building, right here in the heart of
Minneapolis. We had to you know, follow those two guidelines, which I truly understand
and support. So, then how lives that were around me, I mean, the human beings whom I
connected to, they just began to be taken the Coronavirus, was in a merciless began to
claim the illness began to claim the lives of the people next to us. And my heart is beating
in agony, agony as we speak. I am in fact, really blessed to be alive. And moreover, to be
in good health. So being a human being with breathing, you know, beating heart over
time, I think and meditate upon many, many things, and I questioned God. Why did you
keep me alive? And why are you keeping me alive? And I'm still trying to find the answer
to this question. I even checked out the books from the Central Public Library in
downtown Minneapolis about you know, God checked out a few books with the title is The
Mind of God, the mind of God and the purpose of life and I read a lot I am just fortunate
and I do know that my life is fragile as well. You know, I'm no different from anyone and
any moment you know any thing can stop me anytime and in my language in Kyrgyzstan,
we say that you know the extent and the illness they come uninvited. So my life personally
turned upside down. And if I'm still breathing and in this physical body, I believe that
Almighty God does have a purpose for me and this is when I began to really search the
answers for the purpose of my life. And then, you know, mighty God, I'm so grateful that
I'm alive right now. I mean, me and my son in terms of his COVID we were blessed to take
our trip to visit my father, and my mother and Kyrgyzstan we are back 10 days ago from
our two months, stay in Kyrgyzstan. And during this time, you know, I, as many 1000s, and
millions of fellow beings, I did lose my good job. My last job was a security I was the
security officer for the statewide protective agency was the headquarters in Brooklyn
center. And I had to, you know, let my job go. So for the concerns of COVID, because I'm a
single parent of a 12 year old, I was honestly afraid. So but then, you know, I'm so grateful
to the government of the United States to the government of the state of Minnesota and
the governor. So I had, I was forced by the circumstances of the income to apply for the
Minnesota unemployment insurance, for which I was instantly approved online. And, you
know, I'm so blessed, I was able to collect those benefits in home country of Kyrgyzstan,
we don't have the stimulus checks. We don't have the, you know, the unemployment
benefits. In fact, the government of Kyrgyzstan went on a vacation last year as of summer,
leaving the entire nation of 6 million people when or for their own survival. And I'm
eternally grateful, it puzzles me, you know, this whole worldwide pandemia. It makes me
think it makes me not to take my personal frivolously. And I want to be of help. And I want
to be hand of mighty God in helping, you know, and I believe this, the hand of God has
brought me to this program called Street Voices of Change.
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I
Isaac Tadé 12:33
Well, that's so beautiful, thank you for sharing your story, and for sharing your struggle
through the pandemic and the things that you saw during the pandemic, have obviously
impacted you deeply, and maybe even certainly on a spiritual level. And that, would you
say is how your outlook has been changed on life? You sound incredibly grateful.
A
Aksana M
13:00
I am, I am, I am. I am beyond the feeling the human feel sentimental feeling of
gratefulness. I am beyond grateful. And I am willing to find the answer why God is has
decided not willingly to give me because I do believe that the time that the piece of time
that we humans have really created was our rush is our try to catch up on things and
trying to collect the items. So my heart is in a different place right now. I don't anymore,
secure my, you know, my riches and the properties and in last year, I began to enjoy this
antique to a person do their China sets and the silver and the gold. I am blessed with all
everything that I own. But now my heart is not there. I my heart. You know, I stole my
church is in heaven. And, in fact, with the benefits that I was able to, I was generously
given by the government of the state of Minnesota. While my trip to Kyrgyzstan, I was
able to help my own family, as many believe millions of fellow immigrants are in the
United States. I did send money for money ground. And in fact, my family's doing
construction right now. So I was with those benefits, because the dollar value was the ratio
of $1 equaling 84 soms on the local currency. It stretches far. So I was I thank, the
government of the U.S you know, that money paid for the craftsmen that we have hired to
expand the property that we have in the countryside, close to the mountains closer to
nature, we're able to buy the construction materials we're able to buy the food, my mom
was cooking three times meals. And I was even able to use that money for charity,
because there's so much pain and suffering, you know, people in wheelchairs, people are
starving people hungry. So I was able to give the money from that, because currently, you
know, I'm not employed. And that's the fact. So yeah, it's, it's the fact. Thank you. Yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 15:42
thank you for sharing. So moving on here in the summer of 2020, the movement against
systemic racism had Minneapolis at its Epicenter, with the murder of George Floyd, can
you describe your experience living in the Minneapolis St. Paul area during this time?
A
Aksana M
16:02
Thank you, Isaac. My 12 year old son, chemiluminescent, and myself, we resides in the
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heart of Minneapolis city, right at 230 Oak Grove Street and historical building on the fifth
floor. And we were we are in fact, we still reside there. Live in the epicenter. So first and
foremost, my heart in agony, and mourning goes out to reach the suffering and the agony
that the family of George Floyd has been going through and still going through. We all
entire humanity, are connected. And however much we try to, you know, resist on that the
whole humanity, we are one we are connected. So, in my heart, I express my very sincere,
deep condolences to the family of a fellow human being, George Floyd, who, due to the
unfortunate circumstances, you know, lost his life? And I have no answer for this because
I'm a mortal, sinful human being as everyone else. So is everyone in my family, and I have
no answer. why it happened? I have no answer as a human being as a mortal human
being why it had to happen. And my heart reaches is out to his family, to his parents, if
they're listening to this, go out to his, you know, loved ones, to those people who have
known him and loved him. And I believe that he is soul and spirit are in the place in
heaven where they say there is no suffering anymore. My heart at the same time, which is
out to the family of the policemen, you know, it happened, so, and his family is suffering
as well, he himseself is suffering. So, in fact, the whole humanity is suffering and we should
stop denying that it has happened to someone else it has happened. And it may happen
to any single one of us. No one is exempt of pain and suffering. Yeah. So, and during the
riots and everything, you know, which I understand. So, we people were also prior to that
locked up in four walls and you know, when we are being locked up and close environment
with not going outside. We have to release our energy and our energy, anger elsewhere.
And so it happened, you know, my heart is in pain right now. You know, I mean, it's right
now there's also reconstruction repairing going on, but I saw lots of burning and breaking
and you know, it's and I understand I connect to and I don't want to blame anyone for any
of the emotions which had to be poured out. And many times in destructive way because
we all are humans. Yeah. And I'm not an exempt to this. So I saw the troops being pulled in
the city. So the man my son was so anxious about this, he'll say, Mom, I'm looking at the
military man in uniforms and holding the guns and in my heart reaches out to those
soldier men who have their own families as well. And my heart reaches out to policemen
to nurses, and to the doctors who many of them have lost their lives and sacrifice their
lives and you know, expose themselves to the risk of the Coronavirus, who live on the fifth
floor. And there is no other day and night which go by where we don't hear the sirens. And
for me that every siren was an ear is the cry of entire humanity for help. Help Help. So we
need to stop closing our eyes and saying this is not my pain. No, because everyone driving
that, you know, the ambulance car, the police car, they have mothers, they have fathers,
they have children, they have wives, there have husbands who are you know, waiting on
them in their homes, and they may not come back. So every time you know, I will hear
that in my heart in my heart, I would cry and I'm still crying. That's why when they use this
body, this physical body and my mind to benefit if there's anything I can help with what I
am, so I'm here.
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I
Isaac Tadé 21:17
Yes. Thank you. Okay. Okay. Yeah, thank you for sharing all of that. I know, it was a very
tumultuous time, it continues to be a tumultuous time, some of the things that were
happening before just maybe exposed more. So I would ask you, I would like to ask you. If
there's anything else that you want people to know, or remember, like, let's say 30 years
from now, about your experience, or other people's experiences, who may not have
experienced homelessness during this time period. What would, what's your message to
send to them?
A
Aksana M
22:05
I'm 48 years old right now. 30 years, forward, forward. I'm God willing, I'm here and
working on my two feet. Hopefully, I don't know because, you know, I mean, every step
could be the last step. Every breath could be the last one. And in fact, this is the
worldwide pandamia which made me and still make the think on this because the Bible
says, tomorrow is not promised, as my next step is not promised as my next breath is as
promised, as my next eyesight is not promised. So reaching out to someone who would be
possibly maybe winning their ear to what I'm saying. I have actually tears filling up my
eyes right now. Remember, life, human life is sacred. The word of the of God the living
word of God, Holy Bible. Stay, stick to it. I'm trying to honor my every movement with the
precept each precept of the Word of God and hold the Bible. God says Be still and know
that I am God not as human beings. Do not rush, no point. Do not collect all this you know
worthless belongings. Um, I was reading a couple days ago Eclesiastes everything is
meaningless. While you're looking forward to it, collecting the treasures like materialistic
treasures, you know this that cars and the houses and belongings and the clothes when
I'm gone, I won't be able to take any one of this. Of dusty we come and to dust we shall
return. Yes. So I want the and I'm not an exception. I'm a mortal human being would
vanish physically from the face of this earth and life will continue going on. And there is a
saying in the punny shots. "There is a bridge between time and eternity. neither death nor
pain, nor day and night can cross that." And that bridge is the spirit of man. So hopefully
what I'm seeing right now in spirit will reach out the listening ear. So remember, human life
is sacred, and you're life does count. So, remember, blessings, do crown the head of the
righteous. So keep your head, your chin up. And when due to career or accomplishments,
even they are meaningless. They vanish as you know everything else in this life.
Remember, keep your feet on the ground, you may keep your dreams and ideas and
thoughts you know up, but when you're up there, always remember there is so much
suffering down there, keep your feet firmly on the ground and follow I would say obey the
commands the presets which are clearly depicted engraved in Holy Bible only. Thank you,
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I
Isaac Tadé 26:04
thank you. Thank you so much. Um, just a few final questions geared towards health what
would you say that you need for health as you define it
A
Aksana M
26:20
5000 years ago, Hippocrates who is considered to be the father of the medicine did did
say let your food medicine let thy foot wet their medicine lets your medicine be thy food.
So, physically we are what we eat. And in fact I have just shared the whole heartshaped
container. Of have a very healthy I would say you know, natural anti COVID anti
Coronavirus vaccine which has three of the most powerful God nature create ingredients.
The first ingredient is the raw ginger root which your grind you know, I did this this
morning I chose 6am in the morning grounded in the manual grinder took me a while.
Number two ingredient is raw honey and the honey I put was actually the mountains
honey of Kyrgyzstan my native land. Third ingredient was the limes. Fresh squeezed lime
juice. Every single one of them is a very important antiviral, anti infectious antibacterial,
antioxidant. And you can imagine the word those three together do so in the morning
empty stomach, one tablespoon full. And I myself eat ginger odors you know as bread. So,
yeah, nutrition is the bridge to good health, nutrition. And of course starts with rightful
and righteous thinking you are on a mental and psychological emotional level. You are
what you think you are. In fact your mind does shape your reality.
I
Isaac Tadé 28:30
Beautiful. So, so insightful. Everything that you have to say and, and I so appreciate your
your input on health. Continuing that. What would you what feedback would you have for
the staff here at Central health commons? I know this is only your first day here. But from
your experience so far, is there anything that we can work on? What could be better? Is
anything missing?
A
Aksana M
29:01
Thank you, Isaac. This morning, the mighty hand of God has brought me to be introduced
to this auspicious remarkable and unique program at Augsburg central health commons.
Forgive my ignorance I didn't know about this program and truly, you know learning to be
a medicine woman excited looking forward to know more in depth about your integrative
program and hopefully to be involved with your you know, current and forthcoming
projects. So as a fellow simple human being the you know, sensitive resident of the City of
Minneapolis I will be honored if there is any input of my experience, knowledge, I mean, I, I
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am a world wide traveler. So, I mean the cultural input the knowledge input, the
experiential, the historical the snake, I mean, I mean, I am well, I am, so I'll be very
fortunate, and they will consider that as unique and auspicious and one of a kind
opportunity to get to know more about your background isaac, about the background of
the people who run this program, and I am fully supportive of your health problems of the
Augsburg department, thank you, college.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:43
thank you, it's, we're so thankful that you're here. Is there anything else you'd like to say
before we finish today,
A
Aksana M
30:56
life is beautiful. Life is sacred. Life is a journey of mind, body, and spirit. And we, as human
beings, I truly, truly beginning to believe in my heart that God did create, every single one
of us down to the, you know, little piece of hair on top of our head, for His glory and
purpose. And if he did create us in his own likeness and image because there is no other
species on the face of the evolutionary Earth, and universe which resembles even tibbett
to the human being, I mean, we are so complex, we are the matrix of the feelings and
sentiments, emotions and the I mean, it's just phantasmagoric what the minds you know,
which are tuned in there, you know, creative magic and create the music and the
philosophy and the art and the science and oh my god, do we just do just Isaac, you know,
imagine we tune in our energy and our spirit and our entire essence to the to who we truly
are created to be. There is absolutely I mean, we are the human beings who are able to
launch this spaceships into this space into the universe to discover the Milky Ways and
the Galactus we are all same human beings who are able to communicate to each other
on a remote basis I mean about this you know, the mind speaking and this the hypnosis
and the Tilly kinetics, and oh, my God, and can you imagine that this this is all are all is in
sync? I mean, it's all like, in us, human beings, we just need to continue delving and then
you know, into our real the true the, you know, authentic the nature, oh my god, as every
human being we just don't realize that we are you know, I mean, we are creating let's but
in the image of God, but we should stop pretending that we are God because we are not.
As I said, let's get back to the, you know, what divine Holy Word of God says, All the Bible
Be still and know that I am God. So we have to humbly bore ourselves. You know, I'm not
saying no place also knowledge, but maybe this is the time even this coronavirus
pandemic is the design of the Almighty God so that we humans, you know, stop
pretending, being gods, although we are Almighty and handy, but our days are counted.
So, and it was this I take authority on behalf of mighty creature, give every fellow human
being on the face of the earth. You know, be blessed, and count your blessings. Because
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remember, every breeze every step, every you know, eye look, anything we hear anything
can come to an end can cease to exist any moment. And I'm not exempt I'm just a mortal
human being whose life physical life is fragile.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:29
extremely humbling. Thank you so much for your time. So that concludes our interview for
today. Again, thank you for taking the time to share your story, to share your perspective.
And, and and to give us a little sense of who you are and and who you are as a human in
this world. So thank you again.
A
Aksana M
34:50
Thank you Isaac so may you know this technology, you know, help us carry our tools and
the year vibrations and the you know, breath and the, you know, mode of our hearts
through the times through the space. Because there's the Upanishads of ancient Sanskrit
said that there is a bridge between time and eternity. Nothing can close the patient. It is
the spirit of man, which was ongoing, every human is gone, we will continue carrying the
message through the centuries into eternity. So, thank you, Isaac, Thank you for your time.
And I bow my head and my spirit and my entire essence in humbleness for you, to the
entire staff of the Augsburg central health Commons to the program the strength voices
of change to the entire humanity. Thank you taking the time and listening to mumbling of
a mere human being.
I
Isaac Tadé 36:00
Amen. Thank you.
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Show less
Cecil 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
42:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
situation, people, person, pandemic, streets, feet, experiences, life, day, police, homeless,
social distancing, law enforcement, augsburg, homelessness, faith, worst, called, head, place
SPEAKERS
Cecil Scott, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen... Show more
Cecil 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
42:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
situation, people, person, pandemic, streets, feet, experiences, life, day, police, homeless,
social distancing, law enforcement, augsburg, homelessness, faith, worst, called, head, place
SPEAKERS
Cecil Scott, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for street voices of change and
Augsburg Central Health Commons. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of
Nursing at Augsburg. Can you introduce yourself for the recording?
C
Cecil Scott 00:17
My name is Cecil Scott.
Kathleen Clark 00:19
Great. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and have the interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
C
Cecil Scott 00:30
Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 00:31
Cecil 2021
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Great. Thank you. So can you tell me where you grew up and who you called family?
C
Cecil Scott 00:38
I grew up in North Minneapolis. To the question of who I call family, I mean, I call my
family, family. My grandmother. She had 11 kids here. She had nine kids here two over in
Texas who they were taken from her and that's one of the reasons why she moved here to
Minnesota. So I have a pretty big family. Scotts, Neils, Joneses, Ingrams pretty pretty big
family here in Minneapolis.
Kathleen Clark 01:28
Great Well, can you tell me how you got involved with Street Voices of Change?
C
Cecil Scott 01:33
I got involved with Street Voices of Change in their first meeting. I was homeless. And
someone told me, "Hey they're giving these bus tokens and they're giving away some
some breakfast over at Central Lutheran Church. So let's go over there and check it out,
see what it's about." And upon attending that initial group, and when I found out what it
was about and what was getting started, I wanted to be a part of it and I just kept coming
back after that.
Kathleen Clark 02:17
So what was life like for you before the pandemic and what is different for you because of
it?
C
Cecil Scott 02:26
Well, life before the pandemic was definitely easier due to access of different things but
nothing has really changed. I've always been a person, I practice social distancing before
social distancing was a thing. I'm not a person who really likes to touch other people or be
touched by other people. So social distancing was something that was like cool with me
I'm not a germaphobe or anything like that. But there was something that I was easily
able to adapt to. The transportation in the situation it seemed like people were going to
the left, they were going a little bit crazy. Transportation, riding riding the city bus with
several different people who were experiencing the pandemic with me, some of them just
weren't able to, to maintain it and keep their composure so there was a lot of different
Cecil 2021
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things that were happening on the city buses. Like fighting, people getting upset with
people for not having a mask on sitting, too close to them, and different things like that.
So that in particular made me go out and reget my driver's license and get me a vehicle
just so I wouldn't be dealing with the aggression from other people. As far as my job, my
job never stopped. I've been working continuously through the pandemic. I work for a
company that is an essential company. We we do metal plating, and we do metal plating
for specific government agencies or entities that allowed us to stay open for the pandemic
because they needed their equipment that we were working on. So no, my employment
didn't stop. Then we got in to this, the George Floyd thing. And a lot of different businesses
were burned down. So with the pandemic, and that going on, it was hard to access a lot
of things like grocery stores and buying clothes and different things like that. I'm trying to
think if there's any other ways a pandemic has affected me. Because like I said, I'm pretty
much a homebody anyway. So, quaranting myself wasn't no real big issue, you know. I
gotta a little cat. She keeps me company. So I wasn't all the way alone. Plus I'm computer
savvy so I can communicate with people via internet or Facebook or whatnot. So I think
that's pretty much covers my pandemic stuff.
Kathleen Clark 06:06
So can you tell me a little bit about your experiences? Being either houseless, homeless
are marginally housed in the past?
C
Cecil Scott 06:16
What type of experiences would you like to hear? So yes, there's quite a bit of them. When
I first started out homeless, you know, it was somewhat of a choice. Me and my, my
girlfriend were breaking up. And I could either try to stay in that situation, which wouldn't
probably been healthy for me. Or I could go to the shelter, and just start trying to build
anew, which is what I did, and that turned out to be the best solution. And during that
time, in the beginning of that time, I was robbed. I believe I was stung with stun gun, I'm
not exactly sure what they actually hit me with to, to render me unconscious. But I got
robbed for my little homeless possessions. And they really scarred my face really bad.
And blood, a lot of people thought that I wouldn't heal correctly. I did. And thank God, I
did heal God, God had his hand in that situation as well. So that started making me
change my drive of what I wanted to do, I had already had a job. I was already working
40 hours a week. So it just, it just made me go harder. I was working for a temp agency.
And any place they asked me to go, I went, regardless of how far was a how early in the
morning, I had to get up. In some cases, I had to get up and catch a bus to a train and
then ride a bike. But whatever it was, whatever the requirement was, I did that. And during
one of these situations, I was going to a place called the Opportunity Center to eat
Cecil 2021
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breakfast before I got on my first bus and I was riding down Chicago avenue to go to their
seven o'clock meal. And on Chicago and Franklin, I witnessed a man being murdered.
Another man walked up behind him with his hoodie tied around his face and a gun in his
sleeve and shot him in the back of the head just 30 feet in front of me. That situation even
though I've seen death before that situation, really, really awakened me. Because I was
trapped in the streets. And I felt by you know, the streets almost killed me once with the
robbery. And now I'm witnessing a man getting shot in the back of his head. And so it kind
of told me that if I did not work harder or try harder to change my situation, the streets
were going to kill me. So I just went into overdrive and I started showing up at work two
hours earlier and leaving two hours later, which to my to to the owner of the business I
worked for. He just was liked "where did you get this work ethic from?" I got it from the
streets. He did not kind of understand it but, the streets motivated me to get out of the
streets and because I didn't I didn't want to die like that, you know? That's the amount of
motivation, every senses is stuck, just keep the streets from getting me. That was the
second part of that question, I think only.
Kathleen Clark 10:12
yeah, just be your experiences of being homeless or marginally housed or any of that,
which you've answered with some great stories, and also, why you decided to try to make
some changes, which I very much applaud. So, given all that you've been through, and
given the situation in the last 18 months, what gives you hope and strength?
C
Cecil Scott 10:47
Well I'm gonna have to say, my faith in God. In the beginning, it was a little difficult to
activate my faith and activating my faith, what I mean is, you have to believe what you're
actually praying for, and what you're expecting God to give to you. And not all the time
that is easy, you know, that started out for me being a very difficult thing to do, to trust
that it was going to happen, because so many times prayers hadn't worked. And I've just
realized that if I believe God is gonna fulfill these things for me, then it's gonna happen.
And I started doing that, and it's happened over and over, and over and over, and it's
happened so many times that I've become reliant on that. So when a situation comes up
now, where I know that I can't do it on my own, I know that it's gonna be a struggle, and
I'm gonna need help. My first go to is God, because it's been working, it's been working the
whole time, you know, helping me change my situation. And so that's, that's where I go, I
goes straight to God, "this is a lot for me, this I can't handle this by myself." And I trust that,
that is going to be all that I need to do, to give whatever I'm trying to accomplish done.
And thus far, that is what has happened. So that is what I'm doing. I'm continuing to trust
Cecil 2021
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God, and trust that things that I need will be placed in my life and the pathway will be
clear. It's been that way. And then just recently, I had an emergency surgery. And I had to
take a leave of absence from my employment. And during that time, all of these different
fundings, unemployment, and HMLA, all of these different places that were supposed to
be lending, not lending me some money, but giving me some money to support myself
during this time. Those places were not coming through. So I finally spent the last of my
last paycheck. And I just was out there with nothing. And I was running out of gas and
didn't know how I was going to pay my car insurance and different things like that. And I
just said, You know what, I've been trusting God, all of this time. I'm gonna trust God now.
And I drove to a meeting here on E, I was driving on empty when I got here, and did not
expect to get any help from here, but I wanted to attend this meeting. So came in and
started talking in attending in the group. And then afterwards, people wanted to talk to
me and find out how I was doing when I told him and some people's like, "Oh, well, you
know what, we can help you with this." And then I got, I got gas money, and I got my
insurance paid and all of these different things that I did not expect to come out of that
particular meeting happening. And they just further showed me that I need to trust God in
all of these situations, and I'm going to be alright, and I have been, and that's where my
head is focused at that. I'm just keep doing that. I realize also that karma is something
that exists too. I don't think that if I was doing the wrong thing. I don't think that all of
these good things that have happened to me, would have happened to me. I don't think
that people extending their hands out to help me would have been available. I think I
would have been in a whole different time frame for God to work. So, me doing good is, is
bringing me good things and good people into my life. And when I needed help it was
there. So, it's a message to anybody that I like to deliver is that just do good and, and
have faith have pure faith and it'll be alright things, things will fall in place. God will make
sure that you are right to take care of you.
Kathleen Clark 15:41
Well, in the summer of 2020, and with the murder of George Floyd, Minneapolis became
the epicenter of this movement to, you know, call out and change the situation around
racism in our country. Can you describe your experiences living in Minneapolis during that
time?
C
Cecil Scott 16:02
During that time? Yeah, during that time, also, the time is still in existence right now,
actually, in my life, and it's always been that time. The George Floyd situation brung, a
little bit more fear. To me personally, because I'm a black man who's had several
encounters with law enforcement that have not been good situations, I've been assaulted
Cecil 2021
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by police officers, I've been at gunpoint, I've had guns to my head, I've been hit with
different weapons that police use, handcuffs, and this is a lot of treatment that is not not
good. It's something that I would be wanting to experience again, I doubt anybody would.
But with this situation, the fears heightened because I feel like that the police are going to
want to have some type of retaliation. And they're not just gonna, they're not going to
retaliate against anybody, they're going to retaliate against people who look like me. I
don't look like a prep student, I don't look like a person who is, is going to a clerical job
every day, I look more like a street person or urban person. And to some people, I may
even look like a gang member. So I'm just like in that big target pool. So even when I'm
pumping my gas, and I see a police car driving by is a certain amount of fears, a certain
amount of energy that goes through my body, to not only just alert me, but just to get me
aware of where I'm at, in what's going on around me. I don't know how many other people
feel this, this feeling that I'm speaking up when they encounter law enforcement, I don't
believe that it's fair that I have to go through this. I don't go through this when I when I
meet other people. So is this not a race thing? It doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's a white
person or black person, Asian or whatever ethnic origin they may be, it's the whole the
whole environment of policing. When I see a black and white police car, or when I see a
police car, in general, sheriff's car, whatever, I know that there's a person in there that
could potentially cause me harm or even kill me and then possibly get away with it. And I
have no justice. I'm just dead. And that feeling that I get I describe it as fear because I
don't know what other other way to express it. I mean, I'm not walking around, ready to
stick my head in a hole because I'm afraid. But there is this feeling that this cautionary
thing when law enforcement is around that I have and it's only because of situations like
this. It's only because of that. You know, it's not fair to me. I shouldn't have that. That's like
I'm being bullied at school, knowing that I have to go to school and and see this person
every day. And then when I encountered them, I get this feeling that something could
happen. You know? And that's not fair that that's, that's completely not fair. I'm hoping
that you all understanding what I'm talking about, and can get a clear picture of it. But
that, right there is. That is this definitely something that the George Floyd situation has
created. I'm really, I'm really happy with the results and the George Floyd situation. The
man had a very hard death. And it was one of the worst ones that I ever seen. You know,
I've never seen anybody lose their life over several minutes of suffering. I've always seen
like, the guy on Chicago and Lake at night, Chicago, Chicago, and Franklin who was shot
in his head, and they're dead instantly. I've never watched somebody die, slowly, drowning
or, or being choked to death. I've never seen anything like that. And so it really impacted
me. It actually made me angry that that could happen, and these people could get away
with it. So seeing that, they decided to charge them. And one of them is currently doing
time for his crimes. Which I feel the sentence was not fair is it is some success, it is a
sentence because a lot of officers have done worse and not paid the penalty at all. But I
see young men from my urban environment, that do crimes that are similar murder in
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general, and they give 45 years. And then we got this person who was a authority figure.
He's law enforcement, and he's been doing this job for 20, 30 years. And this this person is,
is basically given a slap on the wrist. You give this little 20 year old kid who don't know too
much 45 years for the same thing. It just doesn't, it just doesn't seem fair in that aspect.
But I am glad that some justice came out of that situation. I think that it was downplayed
by monetary sympathy. What I mean by monetary sympathy is they went ahead and they
gave $27 million to George Floyd's family kind of like to say, "Well, here you got all of this
money now. Okay, so let's forget about the fact that this officer is on trial for killing your
son and whatever since he gets out of it don't make a build a big deal out of it, just accept
it and go with the flow." I don't think that that was fair either. I just monetary sympathy
and that's that's how I'm gonna put that but. This George Floyd situation has definitely
changed my life. And it's still changing. And we were going to see what happens. After
this, I mean, it to me this. This is so alive and so real. I may see too much in the things but I
think on the day that that there, Derek Chauvin was convicted. It seemed like police all
across this country just went on a killing spree towards African Americans. And we just had
so many deaths, young girls dying at the hands of police officers. And we had a young kid
over here in Brooklyn Center who was killed by a police officer. And to me it doesn't seem
that that was accidental. She said "taser taser," or whatever. But she was pulling her gun
and shooting this man with her gun and anybody who's had these two items in their hands
knows, they're completely different feel. And it just is just a bunch of BS to me. It's like this,
this is our revenge. You got one of us. So now we get one of you. You know? Actually, it's
not one of us, hundreds and 1000s. Did I did I answer your questions?
Kathleen Clark 25:08
You're so articulate and just, yes, you answered the question. Thank you so much. So, you
know, some of these recordings might be used for people that come to Street Voices to
hear more from individuals on their experiences that as of late, or maybe people 30 years
from now we're going to reflect back. So is there anything from your about your
experiences, or from other people's experiences, who may have been experiencing
homelessness, houselessness, or marginally marginally being marginally housed during
this time period that you would want to make sure that people remembered or reflected
upon 30 years from now?
C
Cecil Scott 25:59
Well, this kind of goes back to what I was saying about, about faith, and just not giving up,
you know? 30 years from now, this is gonna be useful information, just= as well as it is
today, you know, when you're in a homeless situation, you have to believe in yourself, and
you have to have faith, that things are gonna get better, in order for you to make them
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better. You know, when I first became homeless, I did not see a future. I didn't see a future
at all. And then once I got established with a good employer, I could start seeing the
future because I started having money. It was like, first I was living paycheck to paycheck,
you know, when I was trying to save money to get into a place. And eventually, over my
time and working, I started having extra money to spend on different things, and being
able to plan to do different things like maybe I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to my favorite
restaurant this week, things that I wasn't able to do. Or maybe I'm gonna buy this pair of
shoes. Or, you know, maybe, you know that, well, now, now that I'm in my place, different
things now, it's like, "oh, maybe I can buy me some new tires for my truck, or, you know,
maybe I buy a new couch or something like that." But before, I could not see any of that
stuff. I couldn't see it and kind of blinders, you knows, like, starting to feel like the situation
was was hopeless, you know, this endless pit of nothing. And once I started seeing the
future, or seeing that I could plan and I could, I could escape all of this stuff, all I had to do
was not give up on myself, all I had to do is believe myself to do it. You know, even when
other people say, "Oh, you're not gonna be able to do that," you know, I was actually
homeless with my brother and my son. And both of them, they chose to give up and not
go the route that I went, I mean, I even had us all a job at the same place. And I'm the
only one showing up to the job. Neither one of them showed up. But needless to say,
they're both still kinda in the same sort of situation. You know, my son, he's living with his
girlfriend. My brother, I honestly don't know, I just know my brothers in the street life, he's
trapped in there. And he doesn't seem to want to change that. So any advice that I could
give to anybody would be keep your faith, don't give up on yourself. And don't accept no,
you're gonna hear no, a lot. And no's the worst that they can say to you. No is not gonna
bind you tape you up in a corner or something like that. No is the worst that they can say.
And don't always just accept no, you know. Especially if it's something that that you
qualify for. And they say that you qualify for it. You got it, you got to drive in, you got to
get the person up from them. You got to keep going until you get the results that you
want. And that's gonna be coming from your faith and your strength and believing in you.
Certainly got to go as far as you take it.
Kathleen Clark 29:52
So is there, so if you could ask people to work on something or get involved in an issue?
What would it be? Is there something that people hearing this could help with?
C
Cecil Scott 30:11
Well, I'm gonna say there is something that people listening to this could do to help.
Everybody comes from a different environment, and everybody has different teachers, in
Cecil 2021
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the beginning of our life. So our learning processes are different. And some of us are
experiencing different things out of the same situation. And so a person who has positive
energy and positive intellect to, to add to this situation should do that should try to help
the next person regardless of their capacity. I mean, you know, you can, you can be a
homeless person and help another homeless person. So don't don't ever feel like that you
can't, you might have information to give to another person that will help them along in
their, in their life. And so, I would just say, that people of all, of all lifestyles and all social
networks and people all should pay attention to this situation of homelessness, because it
takes all of us to change it, you know. There's doors that a rich person can open that a
person who has poor accommodations may not be able to open. But that person can
open it for that person with poor accommodations, you know what I mean? So well, it's
knowledge too, you know, a lot of our situation goes to education, if a person doesn't
have the knowledge to diplomat, and sort through these different situations and be
diplomatic, when they're talking to people, they're not going to be as successful, you
know. So the more knowledge that a person has to help themself, they're going to do
better. So people have all of these different circumstances, if they pull together and put all
their energy and knowledge into it, you know, we should be able to, we should be able to
help everybody. Everybody should be able to move forward. I don't see being in any other
way. So the way that life in society is always gone. One person can't do it alone.
Kathleen Clark 33:16
That's so beautiful.
C
Cecil Scott 33:19
Thank you.
Kathleen Clark 33:20
I agree. It's almost like you're talking about her inner, the inner weaving dependence we
all have on one another, right? We can't survive without each other.
C
Cecil Scott 33:30
Yeah, basically, basically, like, like I said, you know, our first our first teachers, our parents,
so all of us are gonna have different views and perspectives on life and learning. You
know, like, growing up, you know, in my community, there was this thing against law
enforcement, where, even if we weren't doing anything wrong, we see a police car and
Cecil 2021
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we're running, you know. And we was out there playing tag or something like that. And in
a different environment, it may not be the same. They might see the police car and run
over to the police car, you know, wanting to shake their hands and talk to them and stuff
like that. But it's just all of these communities coming together. For the purpose of
defeating one thing and right now what we're talking about is is to homelessness and
racial equality. You know, if we are pulled together, I believe it can be defeated. I did, my
little research on on racism, and I found out there racism. It only existed for a few 1000
years. It came in the end of the 14 the 1400 century. What it was prior to that, it was rich
and poor. So the rich and poor were fighting against each other. And the poor did not care
what race and Creed's you were we were just trying to defeat rich you know and the rich
discovered that this was happening and so they kind of put in a few different things to
detour people. One was religion, one was race and there's probably a few other things and
now even in this day and age we got different things that divide us like drugs, you know.
So I honestly just think the race card is just a joke it's a game it's a distraction. It's
something put in place to keep us from achieving our ultimate goals and they our ultimate
main goals is to evolve you know. It's like a certain section of people don't want everybody
in time they want us behind time. Just hoping I'm making sense to your because
sometimes I tend to think a little bit deep on on the higher level would obtain so much
knowledge about stuff. Nobody knows stuff.
Kathleen Clark 36:30
Well, just a few more questions and more these ones kind of geared more towards health
what would you say you need to be healthy?
C
Cecil Scott 36:43
Well, seeing that I just had surgery recently, I think I'm doing and I thought I was doing well
before the surgery too. I can only say you know, my personal situation, I would have to say
in order for me to be healthier than I am I would have to have like a dietary and type my
own personal diethiatarian you know, to keep me on track because I live right by a
grocery store and it actually is a butcher. But it's a butcher shop but it has a grocery store
and it is well called Solo and every time I go in there they just got these amazing prices on
steaks. So I'm just like constantly buying steak steak steak steak and my doctor's like, "Cut
that out, you can't just eat steak every day all day!" And I'm like you sure, I can't? I would
have to have personal dietician, you know. As far as that part of my health and I think I do
enough exercise and outdoors. Somewhat I've been going fishing every weekend I do this
every summer go fishing every weekend, until snow and ice come. Yeah, I don't know how
much more I could say on health care. I feel like I'm a healthy person.
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Kathleen Clark 38:28
That's good and I know that you've been in a few times as far as like you know getting
socks and things but is there any other things that would be helpful for us to have or do as
nurses in this drop in center?
C
Cecil Scott 38:44
Well I personally I have bad feet in my family. And me I don't have an arch in my foot. And
so a lot of times I have problems with my back or maybe my feet are hurting standing too
long or something like that. For to have a program here dealing with the feet, wheather it
be like they got a program called Sole Care. I really just adore those when they they've
helped me take care of my feet so many different times and have helped me feel
comfortable about my feet and I think if my feet are healthy, I'm healthy, you know. I can I
can go to work and do my job and different things like that. So I think that would be a
good source of help for homeless people. A lot of times homeless people can't take off of
their their shoes. You know It was a few times and when I was in different shelters where I
had to sleep with my shoes on, because I didn't want anybody to steal my shoes, you
know. And so a lot of times I had on my shoes for three or four days before I could actually
take them off and having my my feet be refreshed or whatever. I don't know what to say.
It's like there's even a brief moments that you know I took my shoes off to take showers
and stuff like that it was like I'm right back in those shoes again, you know. So maybe 20
minutes that I had my shoes off just not really giving my my shoes or my feet a chance to
breathe and get the help that I need. Even even now with with me working, because of my
size, my feet are a long ways away from me. So it's kind of hard maintaining my feet and
so being able to go to someplace like sole care and have them help me with my feet is
just a blessing, it's just great. I think that would be a great addition. Having something like
that going on.
Kathleen Clark 41:29
Was there anything that you'd like to add before we finish for the day?
C
Cecil Scott 41:33
You know, just somebody keep their head up, keep the faith, trying to do good. Trying to
do good.
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Kathleen Clark 41:48
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and your insights and have
great day.
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Show less
Darrell Warren 2021
Thu, 7/29 11:34AM
32:35
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, life, feel, hope, hear, voices, community, gave, street, health, floyd, situation, call,
officers, law enforcement, interacting, interview, shelter, fighting
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Darrell
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02... Show more
Darrell Warren 2021
Thu, 7/29 11:34AM
32:35
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, life, feel, hope, hear, voices, community, gave, street, health, floyd, situation, call,
officers, law enforcement, interacting, interview, shelter, fighting
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Darrell
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Hello and thank you for joining us today for the oral history project for the Augsburg
University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, I'm a student intern with
Augsburg Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
D
Darrell 00:17
His name is Darrell Warren,
I
Isaac Tadé 00:20
that, yes, yeah. No, go ahead. I cut you up,
D
Darrell 00:25
just participating in this interview here process. So you guys can get a better perception of
what we experienced of being homeless is
I
Isaac Tadé 00:37
excellent, thank you. And just before we continue, I would like to just confirm that you
consent to being interviewed, and that the interview can be stored at Augsburg University
Darrell Warren 2021
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available to the public.
D
Darrell 00:50
Yes, I agree with that.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:52
Okay, thank you. So, getting right into it. Can you tell me about where you grew up and
who you call family?
D
Darrell 00:59
Yeah, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois. And I left there at 17 with the Job Corps and the people
are called families is my siblings, which are deceased, my both parents, grandparents,
older brother and my youngest sister died of cancer. My mom died of breast cancer. My
grandmother died of cancer. My dad had a heart attack and my older brother had a
similar heart attack. And so I just had one sibling left, which is a twin. He's live in Rock
Island. And so people are called family on the streets and being homeless gets you in
different groups that I come across or become apart that's like Street Voices, really have
been supportive and helpful in my needs so that to me is family, those who can identify
your situation and we, you know, kinda interact with each other, they have become my
family and not necessarily bloods. They're my family only through DNA and blood, but,
you know, as far as the situations that I go in, they're not really supportive. You know, or
even been supportive of my situations and my needs, more to my homeless situations and
they have their own lives.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:34
Right, well and you have your dog.
D
Darrell 02:36
Oh yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 02:37
you got your dog here today
Darrell Warren 2021
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D
Darrell 02:39
Xena, that's my best friend
I
Isaac Tadé 02:40
Xena right there. Yeah, yes sir, yes sir. Okay, thank you. Um, could you tell me more about
how you got involved with Street Voices of Change.
D
Darrell 02:53
Yes I was, actually I was in fear for fear of my life in Hibbing, Minnesota, St. Louis County,
falsely arrested by law enforcement. And then I was one being assaulted, and they
trumped up all these charges on me of fleeing and obstruction and of that nature, and
which is all false and, you know, putting these guns on me so I've been fighting this battle
by myself for probably a whole year now. And, and I had to leave. I had to give up my
place, due to the fact that I was scared to live in that town, you know, cause they kept
harassing me and so I just packed up one bag and left my left my apartment. Been living
in Minnesota then I came to Minneapolis and I've heard of George Floyd and I had seen all
the events happening on TV, with law enforcement, with, you know with, uh with the
shootings. And I came to Minneapolis, Minnesota, you know, to get some help or, you
know, to find a lawyer, civil rights lawyer groups that have a support system, and Steet
Voices was the one that was, I met this guy named Earl he told me about it and and
invited me to a meeting, and I said I'd come by tomorrow morning about Street Voices
and I sat in the meeting and I like what they stood for. So, you know, I feel like I want to be
more of a part of their meetings and things that they do so I want be more involved.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:39
So you've been coming here for about a year now?
D
Darrell 04:41
No actually only I've only been in Minneapolis for a month and a half.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:49
Oh wow, okay,
Darrell 04:50
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D
Darrell 04:50
I'm been fighting my legal,
I
Isaac Tadé 04:52
okay that's been for a year.
D
Darrell 04:54
False, being falsely arrested
I
Isaac Tadé 04:56
right
D
Darrell 04:57
So, Steet Voices, this is probably my second, second meeting. Okay, Street Voices, on
coming.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:10
Well we're glad you keep coming back. Yeah. And I'm sorry about your false accusation,
that's, that's a terrible experience. Um, you talked about this a little bit already, but what
did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for you now because of
COVID-19?
D
Darrell 05:33
I think life was a before the COVID, it was actually going well you know I think what, what,
for me what turned around, wasn't this so much of a COVID thing, it was a president that
we had. Donald Trump. And this was like my whole community changed. You know when
he became president and people just changed, you know, as they started seeing, you
know, color, you know, and I no longer felt no part of the community anymore, you know
I
Isaac Tadé 06:08
and is this, was this in Chicago or was this in...
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D
Darrell 06:12
Hibbing. Hibbing Minnesota, St. Louis County. And it just took a drastic change, you know,
in different groups coming up there and different people from different places of states
and recruiting people for these racial, for their racial hate groups and people just started
changing so I just started not feel like I didn't fit anymore. I'm still trying to have hope, you
know, they're like oh, is this really happening. You know, I would go into stores people
would call the police just for no reason or saying my service animal is not welcome and
I'm constantly being harassed by the police only get behind my car, and I'm like "hey you
know me and they have been in this community for awhile" you know just threw guns on
me and also getting it was getting really hectic, so I had to start being afraid, you know,
fleeing actually, fearing for my life.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:10
So all of those things those are social, and even some like political pressures that were
taking a toll on you, even before all of you know, the pandemic and all of the health
related things like that. How would you say, did, did COVID scare you at all? You know
maybe you're more afraid of, you know the police in Hibbing than COVID. You maybe not
thinking about a virus, that you can't see, you're probably thinking about a gun and an
officer that you can see.
D
Darrell 07:41
Yes, that's exactly how it was. That was the issue, and due to the COVID pandemic, it was
just like, you know, it was a ghost town and if you out at night with a certain time. It was
times where I was, you know, I didn't want to be out at even night to go to the store, it
might start to get dark, to go to the store because it was like, you know, I felt like I was
open season for like be more attacked. Because I did experience to where they had set up
like a curfew and I remember the one officers that come, you know, coming over and I
knew them. They knew me and I knew them, and I'm just sitting there, knowing this still in
Hibbing and I'm sitting there. On my laptop and, you know, they just came to sit there by
me, one standing up in there looking up, never said anything so then I'm like "wow". So at
this time, this is the beginning of the COVID. And so, and he asks, so then I asked him like
"hey, you know, what's going on?" "Oh Nothing we just sitting here." And I made a
statement about George Floyd and I was like, could they initiate a conversation or
anything so I just initiated a conversation but man it was really, right after the killing them
of George Floyd. And I was like "Wow man it's really sad what happened to George Floyd
man I mean, that was some coward stuff to have someone in handcuffs and then, you
know..
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I
Isaac Tadé 09:14
Choked him to death
D
Darrell 09:15
and take the choke them out, take his life. I was like, "man if I was him, I would have been
fighting back" so I had made a comment like that, they are officers. And, and I was afraid
too that they were about to engage, engage, engage me in that way. And they kept
looking around to see if anybody was around. And this drone appeared over us and I'm
like, "Oh wow, I hope that drone has a camera on it" and in someone had yelled out. We
just had a protest up there with, with the police shootings and stuff. And so when I looked
at the drone I was like, "I hope he has a camera on it" you know when somebody yelled
out, "leave him alone." You know I never seen a person or yelled out, and so I just told the
office I'm like "well, I know man is gonna be a curfew at nine o'clock and I'm just finishing
up on my laptop here but is there anything I can do for y'all?" They didn't say nothing. I
guess "I have nothing to talk to you about," you know, he made a statement like "Hey
where was you at such and such time?" I'm like, "what do you mean where was I, like you
seen me at the protests. You know, and I spoke to you. I was really afraid of my life if
anything. And they had finally walked off you know when they seen someone stand out on
the porch. I just thought there's gonna be enough statistical of violence from the police.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:02
That's terrifying. You know as a black man we feel like it could happen to any one of us at
any time.
D
Darrell 11:08
Yes, anytime,
I
Isaac Tadé 11:11
and to be in that position. I can tell you know that was incredibly, well, fearful.
D
Darrell 11:24
Yeah, they're very terrifying. And then I, you know, I try to see, you know, you know them,
not as a whole, as, as always, like, you know what's been using pattern behind a badge,
you know to attack people. And because I also had that experience too. My son, he was
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going to school for law enforcement.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:52
That's right,
D
Darrell 11:52
and he was the only African American in his class so when he used to do to the ride
alongs. And I think this was before Trump became president. We used to do ride alongs. I
know how families would feel when, you know, their husband or brother or wives out there
or some in the field, you know, to serve and protect, right, you know, now he's like oh wow.
You know when I hear sirens or something I call him and I hope he be alright. You know,
and I know that there are some good, you know, officers on force as well you know. There
were time I had to call them, call law enforcement. you know, situations and so I just look
at you know, not the whole force has being, you know, being attacked, but the ones who
can enforce and not abide by the rules. Think they're above the law. Them the ones I have
issues with.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:50
Of course, you know, we trust certain people to enforce the law and we don't expect that
they break it themselves, right, and that they, they also abide by the rules that normal
civilians like you and me have to abide by. Right. So, I guess, first of all thank you for
sharing that, and thank you for sharing your personal experience, um, in what way has the
pandemic shaped your outlook on life. Has it changed how you see things?
D
Darrell 13:23
Yeah. I don't know, the pandemic is like, everybody's desensitized you know. First it was no
interacting, you know, everything is done about monitor, right, you know, virtually,
virtually. And then two and also, I was being taken advantage of too. Like back when I was
going to court, you know, had a bad Zoom audio and a lot of my rights was being
violated. You know where if I do try to speak to defend myself in the courtroom with the
judge, and they would, they would mute me. You know, and then I call him and then ask
the prosecutor, what he want to get for the same thing I was falsely charged for it, you
know. And I would get muted. And, or they would just threaten me with contempt. You
know and they take, I feel I've been taken advantage of doing that type of situation as far
as the pandemic, that we had happening by zoom. Or there were times where I had to
write a motion for a complaint on the judge to have her be removed from off the case file,
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because she was violating my due process rights. Would not allow me to be heard. They
just really take advantage over to take a trial, and where I didn't even have, where the
prosecuter have any arrangement or submitted any evidence. You know I wasn't even
being in heard, it was just like "hey you're a number, you know, hey, well you'll have no
rights and you'd be muted, what you say don't matter." And that's the way I was taking
with the pandemic. And then what was scaring me as well, just what I was hearing about,
when I see that people with dying from this from this from this virus. You know and so a lot
of elderly people, family members down in the South, that, you know, have lost in life. My
older aunties and stuff like this. It was kind of scary that part of the generation now was
just gone.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:48
Was there anything that gave you hope through the last year. What made you keep, Keep
going. You had so much going on, you had police harassment. You had your case that
you're trying to fight for in court, the pandemic going on, you know, of course, a national
conversation or or even just, I don't know turmoil over, over, race, you know what, what
brought you hope what kept you moving forward through all that time?
D
Darrell 16:21
What was keeping me moving forward? I was looking for a support system and, you know,
Street Voices was, you know, it gave me hope or when I see the different groups as what's
out there. You know, Street Voices cause they know what they stood for. And not just
stood for, what they was practicing what they was fighting for, and then see. Also what
gives me hope is when I go down Nicolette just seeing, you know, city putting on you
know, different organization, putting out definitely events down on, downtown town bring
back unity. Entertainment, you know, music appearrances, started back interacting It's not
all virtual with Zoom anymore.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:10
Right. right,
D
Darrell 17:13
And, you know, we actually can say hi you know and smile you know and it's not behind
some screen and you know you've been blowing off you know what I'm saying you can
even go to, you know, kids can have no connection with a human being. That felt really
weird, odd and lonely. And you know, to actually be or, you know, just know seeing, you
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know once things started opening up and and see people interacting, that's what gave me
gave me and giving me hope
I
Isaac Tadé 17:47
that's helpful
D
Darrell 17:48
to know that, no matter what race, color, creed, you know, I've seen people from all walks
of life and people actually existing, you know, and it's peaceful.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:58
Yes sir
D
Darrell 17:59
unity, started to develop. And Street Voices. Again you know to come here, you know, it
helped me again. A situation to wasting you know, when my car was illegally towed, I just
got a job. I went into Street Voices, you know, was working at a place of hotel told me that
they was hiring, I just started work Friday. Then on Saturday evening, I go and I'm living in
the shelter now and I go Saturday evening. Go back to the shelter and I get off work and
now my car towed, you know, and then that was towed illegally by traffic controls. So, like,
one thing out of another and their price is outrageous. Yeah, and my whole life is in my
car, my vehicle.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:53
Have you gotten the vehicle back or it's still in there?
D
Darrell 18:55
Oh, it's still in there, been in there since Saturday but, you know, you know, the
organization that helped me out with some funding to to get it out today, which is a
blessing because I don't know how to do it I have my whole life in there. Clothes,
paperwork, medical papers, everything, basically living out my car.
Isaac Tadé 19:22
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I
Isaac Tadé 19:22
Right, right. Wow. So you're thankful to Street Voices for helping you get the funds to
hopefully get that vehicle out.
D
Darrell 19:30
Yes, very grateful.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:32
Yeah, yeah. Wow, thank you for sharing that. And I'm so glad that this place has brought
you some hope comfort, support, you know, during this time and. The next question is, is
there anything else that you want people to remember 30 years from now, about your
experience with homelessness during this period. What should people take away, what
should they remember?
D
Darrell 20:03
Remember, the unity, and that there is hope and love in in numbers. You know? And that
no person is alone. You know, I thought I was alone, you know, in the sense of family and
community, feeling belonging, not judged by my race, color, creed or my gender, you
know, which is a beautiful feeling like to be myself and not have to be ashame to what is
going on in my life. You know and you know I could feel free to kind of open up about my
about my experience. where as before I wasn't because I felt, you know, the times I was
confined to someone that I didn't know. Suddenly speaking and it was being used against
me. You know, even I guess some shelters, with staff, you know, they will use it against me
and they don't think nothing of it. The least, little mistake they put you up out of, out of
shelter. You're late, or anything or, you know, you know this, and then just add more stress
because then I'm back, and then I got to sleep outside. You know, just outside of the park
or something so I'm just thankful for what gives me hope to see churches come together
where you know they allow us to sleep in the churches or give us blankets coffee, you
know, water, you know, so yeah that's the community that brought me hope even if I was
living on the streets, that was still, you know, helping people, was actually willing to help
and be a part of that,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:46
you want to people to remember that there was unity during this time.
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D
Darrell 21:51
Yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:51
even though it seems like there's so much division.
D
Darrell 21:54
Yes, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:56
Wow. And your personal story speaks to that
D
Darrell 21:59
yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:01
Goodness gracious. Thank you. Um, okay, if you could ask people to work on something or
get involved on an issue, what would that be? Is there something that people hearing this
could help with? What issue should we be focusing on right now?
D
Darrell 22:21
The issue should be focused in on that. You know it's not that hard to smile or say hi to
someone. I remember I was downtown and I've seen Minneapolis Police standing there,
standing by their car, mean buggin', got their uniforms on you know. They have an
influence in their community but they, you know that's trusted they have to earn back and
I asked an officer like, "man, it don't cost you nothing to smile, you know, just to say wave,
you know to say hi, you know you're standing out by your car downtown in downtown
area," you know, but yet not greeting people. But I'm like, "hey, what if a kid come by, you
know and you're being mean to one of this childs. How would that child feel? you know, so
and I talked to a number of offices and sargents and so now I'm starting to see them
working doing the old school. They walk in the downtown area now and they're waving
and their smiling. That made me feel good to see
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I
Isaac Tadé 23:33
comfortable!
D
Darrell 23:33
if they feel comfortable to see it, they actually took a little time to listen and doing it. You
know because people are hurting and angry you know due to violence and, everything,
and loss of jobs, you know, so it's a hurting community as well as businesses you know so
we all got to exist, you know, and then people like myself have a mental illness you have
PTSD. And then, for people to be mindful of, you know before you judge or anything you
know you never know that person mental illness or what's going on in their life. Take time
out to just actually just know, view the whole situation with that person or to say
somethning kind, which is a beautiful feeling. Even I don't have much, but if I have
something someone need it, even if they don't need it. You know, I just go buy water, you
know, from Target and there's on the hot days, I just do some good for someone. And that
gets me out of myself my issues or problems to help someone else. You know with the
change, that made me happy at that moment in time, just to pass out waters, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:48
Man. Going to need water's today it's hot.
D
Darrell 24:51
Yeah!
I
Isaac Tadé 24:53
End of July. Yeah I think that's what you're saying is, you know small acts of kindness, go a
long way. Yeah. I love that. I think everyone should incorporate that into their daily routine
and just, it doesn't cost anything that wear a smile, like you said, right. Well thank you for
sharing that. Um, so just a few more questions about general health. What would you say
that you need for health, as you define it. So, what do you need to be healthy?
D
Darrell 25:33
So I mean, first of all, what I need to be healthy is stability. Because if you have stability,
you can have a little healthy way of thinking. But we struggling, you know, from day to
day, if you're on the streets and homeless, some things stress you out so I find it a spiritual
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aspect, meaning. I have to get out of myself and I was service named Xena. She's been
very therapeutic for me.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:18
Yes
D
Darrell 26:19
you know, because I think without her being apart of my life, and she's five, I don't even
know if I'd be sitting here doing his interview or be in my right state of mind, because, I got
to constantly be responsible for her. You know food, water, shelter, you know, things like
things of that nature. I said I just got hired with employment but I mean. You know, coming
to like Street Voices you know some of the things they provide like blankets, you know,
meditate.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:02
yes,
D
Darrell 27:03
you know, so I incorporate those things when I'm going throughout my day once again. I
will go to the park, you know, just sit in and listen to the birds and sit around the water you
know, around nature. So it gave me that frame of mind, you know, where now it's like in
some shelters, you know they have more resources and where if you don't have health
care, if they found out I was eligible to receive some health loans, in order to get some
health care, you know, to be able to get, you know, my prescription medications, you
know. Check blood pressure, and stuff, you know, things of that nature. Which is,
awesome so I can be kinda monitor of those things. I'm not always doing it but you know, I
just keep going in today like "Oh, your blood pressure's high". I was wondering why I have
the headaches. Okay
I
Isaac Tadé 28:11
There it is.
D
Darrell 28:12
You know then that checklist hits, you know like, "Okay, I need to come get peace of
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mind." And sometimes I don't like being around a lot of people when I'm in that state of
mind and in a dark period but
I
Isaac Tadé 28:30
I understand that,
D
Darrell 28:30
but you know, health care's is very important you know for me to see my medication for
me to eat healthy, you know, fruits and vegetables. And then, and then the community
has been very active in it, you know, you know what, coming around, you know, offering
you know best fruits, vegetables, food, you know, so that's another thing. It's been, man it's
been beautiful. I help anyone along, that they are continuing to help in the community,
you know, to try to have basic needs of food, you know, stay healthier clothing, shoes, you
know. Yeah. Street Voices is like, again it's not one of those organizations who come here
to get clothes or shoes, hot meal a breakfast you know in morning people in meditation
you know a way to start a day
I
Isaac Tadé 29:29
Oh Ellen with that meditation, I love it. I absolutely love it. Yeah. So sound like you said,
you need stability, and within stability, are things that give you stability are. Well, your dog
Xena, eating right, spending some time in nature, and then getting your proper like health
care needs, but, yeah. Okay, excellent. I just wanted to run that back, make sure make sure
I got it. Okay so then, have you met the nurses at Central? Have you met the nurses here?
D
Darrell 30:03
Oh yes, they just checked my blood pressure. They had to check because I felt a little
dizzy and I know they get like that, it might be hot and I'm just wanting to know where it's
at.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:14
Right. Okay, so you've met the nurses, And is there any feedback you have for them.
D
Darrell 30:21
Yes, man. For the nurses that are on frontline you know they they put their lives, you know,
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they go out on a limb to still do what they do you know to to help people, I'm very grateful
for, for the nurses, you know that's even hearing in abroad you know to actually dealing
with all this in the beginning and still doing what they need to do to still serve the
homeless. Homeless people, even people that retired is coming out of retirement, nurses,
you know. To give their service and their professions, you know, and then their their advice
or suggestion, you know, we do need to see a doctor you know because we don't always
know without a professional, you know, to point that out, point out to us right.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:16
So you've had a good experience so far, it sounds like with the nurses here.
D
Darrell 31:19
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:20
Excellent, excellent. And then, do you have any feedback for, like, Health Commons,
Central in general? Is there anything that we're missing is there anything that we can do
better or improve on other services that we're lacking? Anything?
D
Darrell 31:37
Not, not, not that I know but I know for times that come, you know, my mental, physical,
spiritual needs, was, was has been met you.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:49
Excellent. That's what we want to hear. Amazing, thank you. Um, before we finish, is there
anything else you'd like to say before we're done today.
D
Darrell 31:59
I like to say, hey thanks for the interview and say, just continue to keep hope alive and you
know I was a little depressed when I come in, but I got joy, going out.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:18
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Good. Yes, good. I'm so happy to hear that, that makes my day. that makes my day. Well
that's it. This concludes our interview for today. Thank you so much for taking the time to
share your stories and insight with me.
D
Darrell 32:32
You're very welcome.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:33
Thank you so much.
Darrell Warren 2021
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Show less
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral
History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:31AM
26:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, floyd, augustana, exodus, catholic charities, place, whatnot, augsburg, george,
receive, put, voices, commons, life, stimulus, homeless, stay, caddy, frostbite
SPEAKERS
Grant Tyus S... Show more
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral
History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:31AM
26:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, floyd, augustana, exodus, catholic charities, place, whatnot, augsburg, george,
receive, put, voices, commons, life, stimulus, homeless, stay, caddy, frostbite
SPEAKERS
Grant Tyus Sr, Isaac Tadé, Robert Nammar
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé. I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Central Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
R
Robert Nammar 00:16
Robert Nammar
G
Grant Tyus Sr 00:19
Grant Tyus Senior
I
Isaac Tadé 00:21
Thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed, and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, that will be made
available to the public.
Grant Tyus Sr 00:32
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral HistoryPage
20211 of 19
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 00:32
Yes,
R
Robert Nammar 00:33
yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:33
Okay, thank you. All right, so can you tell me more about how you got involved. Oh,
excuse me, I'm jumping ahead of myself. Can you tell me where you grew up and who you
call family?
R
Robert Nammar 00:45
Grew up. This is Robert Nammar, I grew up in Indiana. East Chicago. Say what?
I
Isaac Tadé 00:56
Who you called family.
R
Robert Nammar 00:58
My family. Family.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:03
Do you have, do you have siblings?
R
Robert Nammar 01:06
Yeah, I got two sisters and a brother.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:11
Okay,
R
Robert Nammar 01:12
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral HistoryPage
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Just lost one, so.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:14
I'm sorry.
R
Robert Nammar 01:15
Yeah, oldest.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:17
Do you have any kids?
R
Robert Nammar 01:19
no kids
I
Isaac Tadé 01:20
no kids.
R
Robert Nammar 01:20
Yeah, okay. Thank you.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 01:24
My name is Grant Yyus, born and raised in South Minneapolis area, went to school all the
way up to high school, where I attended on Lake Taylor High School and my sister's
husband was in the Navy, so I was in Northrop, Virginia. For people I consider my family,
don't have to be blood related just those that I have been loyal to and show loyalty to me.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:48
Beautiful. Um, so can you tell me about how you got involved with Street Voices of
Change?
Robert Nammar 01:58
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral HistoryPage
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
R
Robert Nammar 01:58
I was homeless for a while, so I kind of followed everybody from where to go and stuff.
Tried to fight and figure it out, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:09
It was word of mouth?
R
Robert Nammar 02:10
Yeah, word of mouth. I would follow, and follow people, and it became a thing. They said
they get a meeting. So I've attended the meeting, and it's all good.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:27
And you've been here ever since. How many years have you been?
R
Robert Nammar 02:30
About 10 years,
I
Isaac Tadé 02:32
okay wow. Awesome!
G
Grant Tyus Sr 02:36
My name's Tyus. I've been here coming to these meetings for about a year now. There's a
brother, Stefan, I used to see him on downtown a lot. I used to be at Catholic Charities
Exodus apartments in Augustana, where your school is that, that's where I had received
my frostbite, my dad used to be at Augustana nursing home place for people so. Stefan
let me know about this meeting, I got two kids to my son's name is Stefan, their middle
names. I just been coming in since then.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:09
That's a blood you're talking about.
Grant Tyus Sr 03:10
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral HistoryPage
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 03:10
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:11
Wow. Okay, um, I'm gonna ask you about COVID-19. So what would you say life was like
before the pandemic, and what's different for you now because of the pandemic.
R
Robert Nammar 03:23
Yeah, a lot of places were open, you know you can get to stuff and then the pandemic
came, then all sudden closing down. Trying to figure out where to go you know. That's
what happened.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:40
That was a difficult time.
R
Robert Nammar 03:41
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:45
So would you say at this point, things have opened up more, and there are more services
for folks who are homeless.
R
Robert Nammar 03:52
Yeah. Yeah, okay.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:54
But during the pandemic is mostly closed?
R
Robert Nammar 03:57
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral HistoryPage
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 04:16
During the whole, before the epidemic, I don't know. I recieved frostbite like in December
2019, and from the result of that, I end up at the Exodus apartments that's part of the
Catholic Charities, but like I said, I understand that Augustana was bought out by Catholic
Charities, that's where my father used to be at. Before the epidemic I used to umm, I don't
know, I was more involved and things but I didn't have an amputation of half of my foot
and almost all my toes on the other foot. You know, but I'd met George Floyd too, when I
was released from Exodus for like nine days, January 29, 2020. Or no, was it not February?
I don't know what day it was, but I was released for like 10 days or a week a little bit over a
week and he used to smoke his little K2, so I introduced him to CBD so it's a small world
because the place that he got killed that he lost his life in the same place in 1999, when I
got taken out the gang from, out of the gang. I was shot up there. So.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:30
Wow, so what, what was, where were you living during the the pandemic, what was that
like for you?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 05:39
During the pandemic, I was on right there at Catholic Charities Exodus apartments that's
right downtown in Minneapolis.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:46
Okay. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 05:47
It was chaotic because there's a lot of different things going on people dealing with their
frustrations and whatnot. The best way they knew how I guess you know I have family
members, that's part of George Floyd Memorial. Guapa, my older cousin and Reginald
Ferguson, down there, they're trying to do something different. There's not a lot of
resources as far as people on to relieve their pain and housing and different stuff that's
been destroyed, but there's not doing that in North none of the properties and stuff so. It's
just a lot of things going on to that's like the ripple effect, it's a flame that keeps going.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:25
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Wow. Okay, thank you. Um, so you would say that some of those things that occurred
during the pandemic, lack of resources are still happening now?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 06:36
Absolutely.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:37
Yeah. So you haven't seen it getting much better?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 06:40
No because a lot of people that are preyed upon are the first people. It's not an epidemic
or could it be not you have to talk to them people personally or just emotionally scarred
about on different things that we live in every day, you know, and these are resources that
are available. I don't think they've been dispersed enough because a lot of places are
desimate, they're empty or whatnot, and then there's people that can utilize that space as
you know and they've said, you know, it's gonna be even more so people that's gonna be
homeless, you know, they always got to increase because people usually living paycheck
to paycheck, you know, if they aint got their own career got some type of way to make
funding and, you know, in all these empty places can be utilized, you know, whether it's
GRH where it's 934 936 a month where the government is paying or caddy program which
I've been in since December where I've been preyed upon more than anybody I know and
I'm the one that put them together. But it's just all these empty places I and all these
people out here, that's all suffering and they shouldn't have to.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:49
So, tell me what a caddy program is
G
Grant Tyus Sr 07:52
Caddy waiver program is for a lot of people have vulnerabilities like me, whether it's
mental or physical which I have both. And based on your like income they'll help you with
housing just like the GRH program I was at a Catholic Charities.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:05
Okay, okay, and you're saying that there just needs to be more of those types of programs
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 08:09
Absolutely because there's all kinds of places that are landlords that might just be
struggling with their properties where they can utilize these type of programs I had a
property paid off.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:20
Yeah. Um. The next question is about your outlook on life. How has your outlook on life
changed because of the pandemic.
R
Robert Nammar 08:37
I'm down on rent. I rent. And I'm starting to get, you know what to call it, I tried to get my
payment. Direct, what you call it
I
Isaac Tadé 08:53
direct payment,
R
Robert Nammar 08:54
no, or that stimulus. Yeah, that 12 houndred dollars. I get the other stuff, they mailed it to
me. They've mailed, and I got that. 12 houndred, boom! Come up, they issued it to an
account. And I don't know what account. And they said they sent a card I don't see no
card. So I got to go through that, things find it to find money. So that's what I've been
going through.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:28
Has it changed the way that you see life.
R
Robert Nammar 09:32
life. See, like, I can't get nowhere. Because the dang pandemic. Yeah, I can't move, I can't
do nothing, You know,
Isaac Tadé 09:47
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I
Isaac Tadé 09:47
and so that that's you're saying that's directly because of the pandemic?
R
Robert Nammar 09:51
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:53
Right. With the struggle that you just had trying to get your stimulus check.
R
Robert Nammar 09:56
Yeah, yeah, bought me a TV, you know, instead of paying rent, but uh, I'm not inspecting
that, I mean I'm expecting, I'm expecting the pandemic, sort of money for that
I
Isaac Tadé 10:09
the stimulus check
R
Robert Nammar 10:14
Yeah. So how would you say that, Oh, I think things probably for me like, when I'm staying.
I'm staying next Exodus apartments for Catholic Charities apartments since December, 18,
2019 all the way to December the first 2020 where moved in to Open Hearts, LLC 44th and
Park, I was receiving on level three and four care, Exodus apartments, and after I had this
assessment for the caddy program I was told I was supposed to still be receiving the least
equal amount of care or higher care since I moved into this open heart place but I've
been, I haven't received nothing at all, you know I've been fending, to fend for myself had
to go to food shelves and different things had to put a camera in my room because
people going in and out of my room violating my space, you know, and I don't see all
people as the same, but I am a victim of sexual assault by a cop in 2009 but I put my ex to
school for law enforcement. Because I believe in doing the right thing, you know, and, but
what the epidemic going on, is like a lot of people take advantage of your vulnerability
see as as a way to prey upon you instead of a way to help you, you know, but I take that
as far as I do, I try to do the opposite of what, what I get, you know saying if I don't like to
be hit I don't hit I never discipline my kids that were never so I like to be out there helping
others with the same situation I'll probably get the opposite up.
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I
Isaac Tadé 11:48
Wow. Wow. So it sounds like you're extremely resilient. For all of the things that you too
have have been through through the pandemic, and you know you're still putting your
best foot forward,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 12:01
or half a foot!
I
Isaac Tadé 12:05
Right! Yes sir, yes sir. So, What would you say has brought you hope through this time what
what lifts you up, what keeps you going?
R
Robert Nammar 12:19
These meetings that, I mean, going to the streets. The streets, what's the go,
I
Isaac Tadé 12:28
Street voices.
R
Robert Nammar 12:29
It's streeth voice, yeah, yeah, you know, at least we can get some tokens. That's it. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 12:41
What keeps me going is my faith formost, you know. Oh, my kids. I'm supposed to be in a
wheelchair, I only used to walker or when it's absolutely necessary because I wanted them
never had to see me as crippled as I am or whatnot, you know. And as far as helping
others, I'd rather be able to help somebody else even though I don't receive help without
looking for anything in return, you know, and just, just, just realize that life's about. You got
free will, you got a choice of whatever you do, when you wake up in the morning, you
know, even if the person had a gun to my head I never got backed off from doing the right
thing and not being there for my kids. I just realized that I do go out at all, you know, this is
just my personal fulfillment in it, God has always made a way, you know, so I try to do the
best by him I possibly can and, and just keep faith and that and that alone.
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I
Isaac Tadé 13:37
Yeah, grateful, grateful. So in the summer 2020 the movement against racism had
Minneapolis in the epicenter, with the George Floyd murder. Um, can you describe your
experience living in Minneapolis, St Paul area during that time, what was that like for you,
R
Robert Nammar 14:00
The pandemic was a theme. So, you keep, had to abide by the rules, you know, you go
through the motions. But a lot of stuff, closed down. And they came in, you cant even get
nothing, you know. And now, they open back up. Some now they open, we are trying to
get they're trying to figure out what's going on here, you know? that's it.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 14:35
Yeah. Like I said I'll shut up again. Back in 99, right down 38th and Chicago. That's where
George Floyd got killed, I was born and raised there, you know? And just with everything
going on when things are going on. Usually I'll find stuff on Facebook you know and face
all day as your face I buy the watch unit on the book, you know, my 10 year old daughter
had to tell me that. So I usually, I can see the pain in people's eyes or motions that go on
through by sometimes it just bringing up old wounds but sometimes people are taking
advantage of the same situation and becoming destroyed in this city or state that was
born and raised in and that aint right. If you don't like pain, you shouldn't do painful things
that are inflicted on others. In a lot of people like he was saying they'll work their whole life
to earn a way or make a way and a lot of these just scored some things that never to be
replaced. Just like the healing process. Once you lose something you can't put no bandaid
on it you know what I'm saying.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:42
You can't bring back human life.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 15:43
No, absolutely not. I lost my mom and my sister, my mom and I was nine and my sister
when I was 17 So
R
Robert Nammar 15:51
I lost my dad in 88, and my mom and 96.
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I
Isaac Tadé 16:00
Wow, thank you for sharing. And you said you've a new George Floyd personal.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 16:04
Yeah, I just saw him, he used to smoke some of that deuce, I smoke that k2 stuff and I was
thinking I was making crazy, mad put GPS on my phone I stay right across the street, I'm
late, and I couldn't find my house and now I stay right across the street. But I have some
CBD I told him you know, why don't you try some of this, we were always making fun, I had
my feet then , but they were some stinky little things. To clean the shower whenever it is
CBD. So I got to meet him personally. Even though I was even not even supposed to have
left Exodus, I had two quarter or two statements from the doctor saying I wasn't supposed
to be left in the cold, or whatever. So that's why when the Bill of Rights came to Street
Voices of Change like, think it's rule 23 or 24, I wrote down that part. That a person should
never had to leave this place not a shelter but we look at a place, a person can call home,
you know, she never have to be thrown out in streets. When the world is for everybody,
you know, a person should be comfortable wherever that they're not preyed upon. Yeah.
R
Robert Nammar 17:13
like, like you get this. Like, what is this,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:19
yeah, an interview
R
Robert Nammar 17:20
Interview yeah you know, that's cool. I'm glad you give voice and be heard,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:29
Well you, you people are the people who have lived these experiences, and and I've lived
them so wholeheartedly, right, and so a part of this project is to amplify what you have to
say, because we think that's so important. So thank you for being here. Thanks again. Um,
and then so is what is there. Excuse me. Is there anything else that you want people to
know or remember 30 years from now, about your experience, or other people's
experiences being homeless during this period of time.
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 18:11
I've been like, with Katie, I've been in a steady group for the encampment. I'll be in a lot of
different places where people don't have nothing but they're making the best out of what
they got, you know. If we was all together, you know like in like the ideal world, it was you
know, instead of looking at division or whatnot, and we can satisfy everybody about
humanity, you know, not nothing based on your religion, lack of religion, color, nothing like
that. If it's about humanity, the world would be a better place you know , you only got one
life to live now so and it's a difference between living in that system.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:46
So you'd say, what people got to take away from this situation from this moment of time is
to live in unity and not be so divided, I think a lot of times in this society we find reasons to
be against each other.
R
Robert Nammar 19:05
Something about black folks, you know, get together and talk to us all,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:10
There's only one race, the human race
R
Robert Nammar 19:12
yes
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:12
And so people gotta stop putting ourselves in the box.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:17
Celebrate our differences,
R
Robert Nammar 19:18
yeah,
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I
Isaac Tadé 19:20
Yeah, that's that's beautiful. Um, let me see here. If you could ask to work on something if
you could ask people to work on something, or to get involved in an issue, what would
that be, is there something that people hearing this could help with, where do you think
people like me should be more involved?
R
Robert Nammar 19:44
With this, with the streets, you know, the Street Voices. so you can hear what's going on.
Hey, it's rough out there,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:58
That different individuals like us that's out there disabled. Um, probably be them eyes and
ears that most to people aren't able to experience, you know, be able to go different
places but most people have a time limit where they're not able to you know? Even at the
George Floyd, those people that I grew up with their parents or whatnot their kids out
there homeless and then living in places where they fit for animals to live in and nowadays
resources available, what, how is the pain being, not, not consumed, you know, if it's just
like on fire being put on it, you know, or gasoline because nothing being done that like
being overlooked.
R
Robert Nammar 20:39
I was going with the lady one time, she had kids and stuff. Police killed her son over north,
remember that? Tycel Nelson.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:53
What was the name again?
R
Robert Nammar 20:54
Tycel Nelson, he's the first one to get. I mean, that got killed by the police. And then
George Floyd, you know, everybody, you know, all that's happening in the city, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:10
So, um, some of the issues that it sounds like you're bringing up is like violence that we
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need to be aware of and then just more people, more people being aware of
homelessness. Thank you. Um, just a few more questions about health. So what would you
say that you need to be healthy?
R
Robert Nammar 21:35
I got, I got health. I'm healthy, because I get two, I get a VA, and I got regular insurance.
Yeah they keep me going though. And I thank God for that.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 22:04
If I had a choice, I would have a different service provider way at place the place I live,
you know, because all they do is run the service. And that definitely ain't doing anything,
that they're supposed to whatever or claim to do. Other than that, probably for a while,
it's like a home project anyone is supposed to have when they gone to zero.
R
Robert Nammar 22:30
All right. Sixty years old so man, I've been through a lot.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:37
Oh yeah, I'm sure,
R
Robert Nammar 22:40
When I was in the army, they did, they sabotaged me, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:46
What do you mean by that
R
Robert Nammar 22:48
I mean, you know, the dude they come, he came to the... I had a stroke so...
I
Isaac Tadé 22:59
Oh, okay.
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R
Robert Nammar 23:00
We came to the, the guard shack and there was a guard right? This guy he started some
stuff with me and, you know, and I almost went into it right with him. And I quit. Then I
went to the, to the barraks. And, you know, I went AWOL. They had me go, going AWOL
and stuff, dude considered... He threatened me, you know,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 23:34
You done left base and just went to the barraks?
R
Robert Nammar 23:37
I left base. I left, left, went home, came home, you know, that was down in Texas. Yeah, I
went home and then came back, they put me out. And then I've been going through shit
ever since.
I
Isaac Tadé 23:53
Right. And that's why having access to these medical centers is important for you. Yeah,
to stay healthy. Yeah, yeah. Um, next question is have you met with the nurses at Central
Health Commons. And then, do you have feedback for them.
R
Robert Nammar 24:12
Yes, they good, they good people. I see. I see they come in. Soak your feet and everything,
give you what want you know, it's good. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 24:21
I want my feet soaked.
R
Robert Nammar 24:23
Yeah, I had a bad toe, toenails kept on going over, you know. They clipped that sucker for
me and everything.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:34
Right, they fixed you up.
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R
Robert Nammar 24:35
Yeah, I got diabetes so...
G
Grant Tyus Sr 24:39
this is done right here?
R
Robert Nammar 24:40
Yeah, well,
I
Isaac Tadé 24:41
Yeah, yeah right around the corner. Right. Yeah. Okay, you'll have to pull up on Monday.
Now you know, now you know, that's great. Um, okay, so then I guess the next question is
do you have any feedback for like health commons, is there anything that we can do
better? Is there anything missing?
R
Robert Nammar 25:09
Nothing I see.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:11
Okay, so that's on Mondays?
I
Isaac Tadé 25:13
Yeah Mondays and Thursdays.
R
Robert Nammar 25:14
Yeah, Mondays and Thursday.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:16
Yeah, see that's that one she was talking about
Robert Nammar 25:20
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R
Robert Nammar 25:20
my feet is important. Yeah, I have to get them checked and make sure there aint soars.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:31
Okay, so no feedback right now.
R
Robert Nammar 25:34
Nope.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:34
Okay. And then we're just about to be done, but is there anything else that you'd like to
say before we finish up.
R
Robert Nammar 25:41
I thank God because you're around, you know, peoples, getting to know people,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:47
Yeah I appreaciate y'all young individuals doing what you need to in life, for real.
R
Robert Nammar 25:52
Get some, get some. I mean help, you know, we need help. You could be like my son in the
studio, rapping or something. At least you're doing something for the cause.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:06
Well, we're trying to thank you, and it wouldn't be possible without your voices, and so on
behalf of Augsburg Health Commons, you know, we just really appreciate it and
appreciate you sharing what you have to offer because your experience is so valuable,
R
Robert Nammar 26:22
because I belong to a dignity center. They come over there they volunteered and and
stuff, you know, people from Augustana, okay. Yeah.
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I
Isaac Tadé 26:33
Yeah, and you appreciate it.
R
Robert Nammar 26:35
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:36
Well, it's a beautiful thing to give and receive right Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's about it
for today. This concludes our interview. Thank you so much again for taking the time and
for sharing your stories and insights with me. I appreciate it. Thank you.
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Show less
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:02AM
21:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, epidemic, homelessness, person, blessing, nonsense, illinois, work, pandemic, stronger, katie,
strength, homeless, toll, stay, sharing, melvin, augsburg, minneapolis, mobility
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Melvin Jam... Show more
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:02AM
21:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, epidemic, homelessness, person, blessing, nonsense, illinois, work, pandemic, stronger, katie,
strength, homeless, toll, stay, sharing, melvin, augsburg, minneapolis, mobility
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Melvin James
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade. I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
M
Melvin James
00:15
My name is Melvin James.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:20
Thank you. And before we continue, I would like to confirm that you consent to be
interviewed and having the interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public?
M
Melvin James
00:31
Sure, yes. All right, we'll need to be heard.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:35
All right, I agree. Well let's get right into it then Melvin. So, um, let's get to know you a little
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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bit more. Could you tell me about where you grew up, and who you call family.
M
Melvin James
00:47
I was growing up in Illinois, in a little country town. Eleanor, Illinois area called St. Anne,
Illinois. It's like 65 miles south of Chicago, okay. And raised in the country. And my mom
had 18 kids by one man. And so now we're down to five out of 18. So, I'm 62 years of age
now. I'm blessed and not distressed, and I try to give everybody else, the blessings. Some
what of the blessings that I have rolled up, rolled up around and the wisdom and and the
thoughts and humor
I
Isaac Tadé 01:49
The humor is a good part of it. Yeah. So, you, you said you had five siblings remaining. Do
you have any kids of your own?
M
Melvin James
01:58
Yeah. Four boys.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:59
Okay.
M
Melvin James
02:02
They stay in Illinois. Okay, I'm in Minnapolis, Minnesota. Okay, yeah, it was, I was 45 years
old when I moved to Minneapolis, and I'm 62 now, it'd be been, been a winding road, you
know, everybody's life goes through a wind and roll, you know, I live in, You know, but, you
know, I kind of, kind of try to remain, stay correctly into the end of my life. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:33
Excellent, thank you. Um, can you tell me more about how you got involved with Street
Voices of Change?
M
Melvin James
02:40
I was homeless here a few years back, and stuff and so I become what you say, what can I
say. Kin of your life, you know, try to follow the, the pattern, who can help who, you know,
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 2 of 9
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sort of make my weakness, the strongest point of my life. And it was difficult, you know,
you know, but I think I found the nearest right path to walk down, you know, some paths it
was far off, you know, but I ended up finding it near the near path the follow to walk
down. Then I got to thinking about who I am, you know, as a person, you know, without
the thinking of a bad person, you know, and I'm not all that good either.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:53
I think we all got a little bit of that.
M
Melvin James
03:56
It was difficult work. I haven't, I haven't really reached any between harms in our I never
really put myself in harm's way too often. Unless it. If it doesn't benefit me I don't worry
about it. I don't worry about their, their, the, the nonsense. In life, you know, what nonsense
and will be available to you no matter what situation you might be in go through you
know nonsense gonna be there anyway.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:37
Okay, so what did life look for you before the pandemic, and what's different for you now
because of COVID?
M
Melvin James
04:44
Well, life. Before the pandemic, life was nice was gravy, you know, it was, it was
comfortable, you know, I did everything normal that I supposed to do, you know that to
keep myself raised as a human being, you know, and keep myself in a proper position. You
know they whenever they made here, it did it really take a toll on me you know it. Never
tripped over my own feet you know during epidemic, you know, but it slows down a lot, a
lot of preparations of things that I need to get out and do you know and people that need
to. People that I like to keep company with, you know, you know, they put a damper on,
you know, oh, on my lifestyle, you know, it's like basically like, I think everybody life is like,
put on hold. You know, you have to move to like you put on hold. There you go, but taking
all this nonsense drama care at all, you know, so I try to keep you away from their
nonsense, but it's available to you no matter what, you know, I'll come to you don't ever
work, but I was, as I stayed comfortable within myself, you know, everything, everything
worked out for me. Yeah. Good. Very, very well. Okay. very glad.
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I
Isaac Tadé 06:17
Okay, thank you for sharing
M
Melvin James
06:19
I took some losses, you know, epidemic, but it wasn't cause of covid and stuff, you know,
peoples' health get to fail I just buried a sister back here July the forth, just buried a sister
this year July the forth, and stuff, it wasn't because of that epidemic, their healthcare just
keeled over on them. Oh, yeah. But everyday, families, family that stays together family
that prays together stays together.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:50
Yes sir, yes sir. Um, so, in what ways has the pandemic changed your outlook on life. Do
you see things different now?
M
Melvin James
07:02
It's about the same, you know, do I enjoy my life is coming back stronger and stronger and
stronger, you know, day by day, hour by hour, you know, you know, you have to kind of
think about where you was before the epidemic, and where you gonna be after the
epidemic, you know, you get to kind of put that positive mode back into your life that you
had before, the epidemic, You know and I think things do it work out a whole lot easier.
And to get back normal. And I think that kind of trying to think ahead of what you should
process. After the effort epidemic, you know you should keep that same process, you
know, but upgrade it, you know, a lot, you know, a lot different.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:55
How would you say that COVID-19 change homelessness or affected homelessness, I
should say.
M
Melvin James
08:02
they get affected homelessness. A lot serious not motivated in a person that living in a
own home, you know where they can be provided for and gone, give a person at home
that they got nowhere to go, but to the shelter where the shelter is not providing them the
shelter that they need in a life, you know, they really need in a life that they nobody take
the time to feel they need the to gonna try to say to you know, To give them the blessing
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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that they really need, you know everybody is, you know, they've got a job, concept, you
know that don't involve homelessness, you know, don't involve homeless you home that
you get home, you know this, this is this is this, this is the service, we got you you want it,
you take it, you know, if you want it you want it, you're not getting it.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:09
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I'm in the summer 2020 The movement against systemic
racism had Minneapolis at its epicenter, with the murder of George Floyd. Um, can you
describe your experience living in Minneapolis St. Paul during that time. It's a heavy
question
M
Melvin James
09:33
Yeah this is serious. Nonsense take a take a hold up in everybody's life. nonsense take a
hold up in everybody life, you know, and you take you take advantage of that nonsense,
you know, it's no, it's no, it's gonna, it's gonna through some red flags, you know, and it's
other people that doesn't challenge you on what you about what you work in for what
you're trying to learn, you know, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's a toll. You know
that's a toll, each and everywhere's life, you know. cuz you got to understand that other
people, different people lives matter to different people's, you know, it's a concept of what
you got to invite to, you know, what do you have to bring to the table, you know, you
bring you bring, You can't, you can't take. You can't take you can take a round table, and
make it a square, you know, you take a square table and make it round, you know, but
how round Do you want this table to be, you want to tell will be round enough for people
to sit around round enough for people to learn from around enough people to eat off. You
know, this is you know this is just, it's just a question on each and everybody's action in
everybody's head.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:04
What has brought you strength and hope through the last year.
M
Melvin James
11:09
Because I'm blessed not to distress for one thing, you know, and I do not let stress really
get to get to my soul. You know always tried to be blessed, you know with all types of evil,
you know, are trying to keep, keep my blessing. This is my priority my blessing is my
strength my blessing is my, my, my speaking. And my blessing, you know this is my
hungryness, you know, I'm starving for more blessing. I'm hungry for more blessings and
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 5 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
blessings, never, never bertrayed you.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:52
I like that. I like that. So is there anything else that you want people to know or remember
30 years from now, about the experience. It's the experience of homelessness during this
period of time. What do you want people to remember.
M
Melvin James
12:10
Remember to hope, the hope that you get it life the hope that you, you get that you build
a strength for, you know you got to have hope. Have strength, to learn from our mistakes,
you know, the strength to strength. Strength on a soul in your body in your mind is the
strength of your life, you know, this is firstly your life, you keep that strength life upon you,
you know, you get you get stronger and stronger.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:41
That's what you want people to remember. Just beautiful. Um, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, is there something that
people hearing this could help with what issues need more attention.
M
Melvin James
13:02
Violence. Trust. It's sort of a different flaw and every day. There's a different flaws and
every day but keep your head up, you know, keep yourself. To keep yourself out of harm's
way and in mobility yourself to be stronger, you know by everybody else's strong, you
know, trying to be strong, you know, invite you know, they strong this, instead of they
always be weak, you know, never, never, never challenged the book by a cover. Yeah. Y'all
we had to y'all we had to open the book to read the pages to see how, each and
everybody life is. You just can't look at the cover and judge a person by their appearance.
Yet, you go to somebody by their apearance, you miss the whole message you missing the
whole message, you have to open the book and read the pages of this notebook of life.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:20
So are you saying that people shouldn't make make assumptions and that they should
live experiences so that they can know where to be like helpful?
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 6 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Melvin James
14:33
Oh yeah, yes. I mean, don't don't put yourself to be homeless, you know, homeless.
Homeless Not, Not, not, not a class act. there's something that that comes overnight, you
know, you might wake up in the morning you might you might do some you might say
something to somebody, somebody might, you know, don't, don't appeal of what you say
or don't approve of what she's saying or what do you want to do, you know, and that can
that can take that could take your life backwards. That could take your life backwards,
you know, i think for some sort of some some, you know, in aint about drug and alcohol,
contents or nothing like that, you know, but that can be it can be our total fault, too. But
keeping you keeping your mind, mobility in a positive state. If you lose a positive state
that you might lose out on everything, you know, that can bring you to homelessness and,
you know, trying to try to try to pay Paul, trying to rob Paul to pay to pay Peter, you know,
you voice, you work against yourself. You never take you never should work against
yourself, you should be able to work with others.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:06
Okay, thank you. And just a few final questions geared towards health. What would you
say that you need for health? What do you need for good health?
M
Melvin James
16:20
good vitamins. Okay, good positive role model. Good a good for good, you know, he take
a good or bad, good for good. And try to...it's hard to try to eat right, you know, we, we get
a certain age, you know, when you're a kid, you know you can your parent. Somebody
that's overseeing you can, can, can help you feed yourself right but once you get older,
you really doesn't. Yeah, you really doesn't, you know, you want to do just stay healthy.
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:25
Have you met the nurses at Central? And then, do you have any feedback for them.
M
Melvin James
17:31
Oh yeah they good people. A really good part of the people they people person, you don't
have it. Everybody I think come to the site about three to four times a year, maybe less. I
really don't keep count I just ideas come where, where I know I can feel creative, or I can
feel life, or I can feel wanted to feel love, you know,
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 7 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 18:00
And you feel those things here?
M
Melvin James
18:01
All right, good. That's why I come, yeah come to here all the time, you know, because I
feel, I feel like this big old coffee house. Yeah with enjoyment, you know that keeps me to
come and sit down and you can basically talk about anything that going on with what in
your life, and ask them about how they life, treat now, you know, you know, Katie. She's,
she's a wonderful, she's a wonderful girl. And all her all her followers were
I
Isaac Tadé 18:35
little disciples
M
Melvin James
18:36
right you know, they, you know she out he hand picked them her group, it that they want
to hang out with it, you know, but I feel that the group of people that that Katie mends
with is good people like her, you know, good, good positive people like her, you know, as I
come through her you know and I see a new face a new nurse or something, you know,
And they say back you know they like. I'm trying but you know I'm trying to, you know, not
to get too evolved in a homeless person or a lot of visitors. And I'm like, "well it's your first
time? yeah well it's my first time too.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:34
relatability
M
Melvin James
19:35
right yeah, my first time here today. Oh, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, you know, don't,
don't be afraid, you know, say something we just people right, you know, Yes, you know,
just be careful, a while for you to open up, you know, around you around peoples that is
less, less, less unfortunate, but what, but they try to, they try to not try to force they selves
what they try to learn your education as you try to learn my education, right, like, Yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 20:15
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 8 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
okay. Yeah. Okay, thank you. That's really good feedback for the nurses I think they'll
appreciate that. Um, is there anything else you'd like to share before we finish today.
M
Melvin James
20:28
I appreciate every day this church in every place I go, you know they welcomed me with
open arms and, you know, let me, let me joke with them and, You know, they gave me
some feedback some joking feedback. And I like that I like, like a strong person, you know,
a person that won't be a person, you know, definitely a people person, you know, that
excites me. It keeps me motivated, you know, I know, I know where to come, when I, when
I feel like I'm down all I gotta do is think of, Central Lutheran Church, Katie, all in them,
you know, and that brightens my day. You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:12
that's beautiful.
M
Melvin James
21:13
Brigthens my day.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:14
Okay, well thank you, that's all the questions I have for today. Again, thank you for taking
your time and for sharing your stories and insights, Oh, you're all right. Thank you.
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 9 of 9
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Show less
Mercedes 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
24:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, minneapolis, augsburg, happened, epidemic, live, feel, women, housing, mercedes, people,
katie, started, experienced, sick, riots, work, shelter, care, pray
SPEAKERS
Mercedes Ramsey, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:00
All r... Show more
Mercedes 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
24:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, minneapolis, augsburg, happened, epidemic, live, feel, women, housing, mercedes, people,
katie, started, experienced, sick, riots, work, shelter, care, pray
SPEAKERS
Mercedes Ramsey, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:00
All right. So thank you for joining us today for this oral history project at Augsburg
University's Health Commons. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm a professor of Nursing at
Augsburg and the executive director of the Health Commons. Can you please introduce
yourself for the recording?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:20
My name is Mercedes Ramsey.
Kathleen Clark 00:24
And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed,
and that having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:35
okay.
Mercedes 2021
Page 1 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Kathleen Clark 00:37
All right. So can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and who you called family and
maybe how you ended up in Minneapolis?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:47
Okay. Like I said, Mercedes Ramsey. I've been in Minneapolis off and on since 1983. A little
bit about myself, going on 11 years sobriety for alcohol, marijuana, dealing with kidney
disease and other health problems. What else? I've also like I said, been, went through the
homeless situation from 99 to 2007. 2007 I was selected, along with a bunch of other
women through Simpson's Womens' housing program that they started and got affiliated
with getting into my own apartment. I got into a couple apartments, but I wasn't feeling
safe. So my housing advocate helped me get into the Continental and I had been there
for nine years. During the nine years, I've faced different situations. I also done stuff for
Ayaan as far as being part of Resident Planning Committee, went to neighbor works,
conferences. Three of them went to Miami, Orlando and Cincinnati. We did a big ol
barbecue. What else? I also did different other things, did women's group before the
epidemic start here at Central Lutheran. Within that group, we did bingo, watch movies,
did some crafts. Hopefully, when this epidemic's all over, we can go back to doing that
again. What else?
Kathleen Clark 03:16
Um, why was the womens' group started?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 03:21
Why? I think is because we had Street Voices of Change. And then there's other women
asking, asking about it because they had done it was the 90s or early 2000. What before
the construction started here at the church? And then there was two ladies from Augsburg
that was doing it. And they were doing different things within the group. Something that
happened and me and another lady that participated. We did the started started it up. So,
but yeah.
Kathleen Clark 04:15
How did you get involved with Street Voices?
Mercedes 2021
Page 2 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Mercedes Ramsey 04:18
How'd I get involved? What they're going in their fifth year? Well, when they started,
people was saying, "hey, if you come to the scoop on Thursday mornings, they have a big
breakfast. And now after that you you'll get a bus card." And as I like "really?!"so I start
coming to that, not just for the breakfast to the bus card but some of the some of the
sessions we were doing the talks were interested in me how they can get about getting
changes and Salvation Army at their shelter, and now, four, five years later, they're getting
it fixed so, which is good. It took some time, but it got done. What else? And then just
come in for the different topics and people met in different city officials in that. Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 05:30
That's great. So what did life look like for you, before the pandemic, and what is different
for you, because of COVID-19?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 05:41
Well, before the epidemic, I was coming here doing different groups in that I was going to
Westminister for their, their senior drop in center. I go to St. Olaf for their Tuesday club for
women. But it changed to where people could come. What else, and then when the
epidemic started, it just, you couldn't go nowhere. You know, they do, they shut down and
that. So during them times, I'd stay home, make sure no one comes and visits. But even
though it would be nice, but not because of the epidemic. I didn't want to get sick and all
that other so. And then I have a miniature pinscher just turned nine years old. So he keeps
me company. And then I would just take him outside and come back in, there was no
nothing else to do. So thanks for DVD, movies, and YouTube. And Netflix, I kept myself
occupied instead of getting out crazy. Crazy.
Kathleen Clark 07:15
So has the pandemic changed your outlook on life at all?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 07:19
To be more, to be more careful, wash my hands. It's not over. You know, every time we turn
the TV on, there's more viruses and some fungus thing going around now, you know, it's
just getting worse. And I'm a type of one to, to believe in my faith. You know, like they say
in revelations, "all the things that are happening are happening now." And then like with
all the...how can I say this? With the other shootings and stuff? You got to realize if you go
Mercedes 2021
Page 3 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
back in history, all that that happened before, and it's happening again, it's just getting
worse, you know, bye! Oh, I'm sorry. And it's just getting worse. And, you know, you can't
go outside, not even in the day anymore, you know, without getting shot or assaulted or
something happening. So, with me, I just, I gotta if I got to do something, I make sure it's
done before, or at least, those street lights come on, because I don't go back outside.
There's nothing out there except trouble. But as you can see, they do mean, they don't
care what day time of day it is. But you just got to keep your guard and stuff and your
surroundings and everything. I just pray that these young ones would stop retaliating with
each other. You know, it might not be their fault. Maybe the parents are not paying
attention to them and that, but you know, life is too short.
Kathleen Clark 09:31
We'll see. So in the summer of 2020 the movement against systemic racism began as
Minneapolis was the epicenter with the murder of George Floyd. Can you describe your
experience living in Minneapolis during that time?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 09:50
With me, Katie, during that time when that happened to the guy it's it just...So my opinion
is I don't know, I seen the video and stuff, but he could have just cooperated and did what
they wanted him to do. But I don't know, I think he just to me, and he more escalated it.
But like I said, it didn't change anything of me living my life, or doing what I got to do. It
ain't it didn't stop me from doing anything. I didn't, wasn't like scared for my life, because,
oh, all African Americans are out there to kill somebody because of what happened. But
during the riots, I just stayed inside and watched it on the news, you know, and just sat
there like, this, what happened back in the 60s, you know, or was the 70s when they had
riots, Detroit and Chicago. That's just what happened. But they didn't, though, looters or
whatever, they didn't have to go all these different stores and tear up, you know, or burn
them, and it just made it worse. So with me during that time, I just took care of myself. And
like I said, just to live, you have to deal with it you know? You can't get mad and upset
about it, because it's gonna happen, you know, and now that it's over, they're slowly trying
to build back up what they had. But that takes time and money and all that. So praying to
those lost stuff.
Kathleen Clark 12:04
Well, and for me, knowing you, as long as I have and knowing like, what you've had to
endure, as far as like many different health issues that's happened in the last few years,
Mercedes 2021
Page 4 of 8
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you always are so positive in giving back. So what, where does that resonate from? And,
and I do want I don't want to generalize, but I do feel like many people are feeling more,
you know, despair, or hopeless, maybe right now, with all the different things that we've
lived through in these last few years. So what brings you your strength and your joy,
M
Mercedes Ramsey 12:41
My strength, and my joy brings me with them myself. Because, you know, like I've said, life
is too short. And with me, I want to enjoy it every day. And if I don't take care of myself, I'll
get sick, and I'll do my treatments through dialysis. I won't be here. So with all the things
that are happening in this world, I just, I got to keep myself positive, even though at times,
Katie, I feel like I want to give up, like, I don't want to be here no more. But I then like, sit
there and I pray about it. And you know, ask God to give me strength in that. And so I, I
tend to sometimes, like, "Oh, I don't want to do this, and I don't want to live life no more
because life is just getting so hard." But then I'd be thinking, well, I wonder how I would feel
whenever everybody knows that, you know, Mercedes gone to see her Heavenly Father,
but then I try not to think that way. So I just, I keep doing what I got to do and that's just,
take care of myself and do my best to live in little longer.
Kathleen Clark 14:22
So if there's something that 30 years from now that you wanted people to remember
about what it was like for people who are experienced who have either experienced
homelessness or are marginally housed or you know, have been living downtown, is there
what would you want people to remember 30 years from now about this moment in
Minneapolis.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 14:49
That to be more to give yourself more strength and things will be bad some days will be
Good, but always remember to keep your faith up and be strong about it. There'll be days
where you don't want to do nothing. And you just feel like given up. But you know, that's
why we have mental health groups and drop in centers and stuff. And people need to take
more. Take the opportunity of using them services, because we're losing too many young
people as it is, regardless if you're young, middle aged or elder, but. They just keep keep a
sharp mind, or keep their mind sharp or will try to, you know, being homeless and then get
into these programs. Yeah, you get a follow rules. Excuse me. You got to follow rules.
Regardless, wherever you live, you know, so. And if they don't like the rules, then that's why
some of them sleep outside. They don't like to go by the shelter rules. So
Mercedes 2021
Page 5 of 8
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Kathleen Clark 16:19
Some, some of the people who might listen to this oral history might wonder what issues
or what things they could do to get involved or to help? Is there something that people
hearing this could help with, that you envision whether it's through, you know, just your
own experiences, or your work with Street Voices? Like, what's something that you would
want people to know or be aware of to work on?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 16:31
They want to get help in that?
Kathleen Clark 16:56
No, like, let's say that we share this with others who had been at Street Voices who wanted
to hear more stories from people about their experiences at this point in life? What would
you want them to work on? Like, you know, you have your housing shelter bill, you have,
you know, many different things like the evictions are going to start happening again. And
all those things like, Is there an issue like health, addiction, whatever it might be, that you
really think needs some attention, if somebody were to put some effort into something?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 17:32
What you mentioned a lot of though, you know, addiction and eviction and all other
things, what's more important is to, to help them get off, get off out of the streets, get into
some program. There's a lot of them around here. I think, now that you mention it, Avivio
has got in warehouse little homes, you know, that they... all they need is different people to
help them with getting into the resources. And if people were to get information and get
out and log into, into computers and print out stuff for them, because some some of them
need, you know, a little boost. You know, like, here you go. There's these different
resources. And some of them some people don't even know too many of what's going on
around here. Because they feel like they're too scared. Or if they do talk, they feel like,
well, in the house, some feel like I don't want to officers or the officials to get involved. So I
don't want to be bothered, you know, but yeah, they they had like something here where
somebody, say for instance, comes in and says, well, we need some help of getting into
some type of housing, well, then you just get up in that computer, then start looking for
different resources for them.
Mercedes 2021
Page 6 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Kathleen Clark 19:29
And what was the big change for you that got you to get off the streets and, you know,
get sober, was there some moment?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 19:39
Because I had gotten sick of waking up sick or having a hangover or sleeping on this
couch or sleeping at this person's house and, you know, because you got to follow by their
rules. So it got to a point Katie I was like, I gotta change. So that's when I don't know, it
must, god was hearing my plea or something when I was at Simpson's womens' shelter.
And because the next day they were like, when Mercedes, we got to talk to you talk to me
about what? Well, you got to come in the office. Well, whatever woman said, I did it, I
didn't do it. So they're like, No, no, no, you're not in trouble. No, we're, oh, we picked you
and few other women to get into our new housing program. So from there, I, you know, I
was, real happy. And the advocate is supposed to get with me, and who were to drive
around and look at places, but I had already had places in mind, you know. And she took
me to one place 26 and Columbus, I still remember, and got in there. And next thing, you
know, I'm inviting my drinking buddies, and we're partying, carrying on and finally I'm like,
"you're only here in this apartment with me, because I got this place. It's a place where
you can come and drink." And then I like, "all of you guys to get out!" And then from there,
from then on, I just, you know, slowly working on myself. But yeah, every once in a while,
you know, they're like, "Oh, you think you're better than us?" Well you can get into a place
too, you know! You got to follow the rules. And and if you don't follow them, you're out. So
and since then, I've had a place. No, there'd be times where it was hard, but I made sure
my rent was paid and my lights. And now I manage my money and budget it when I can.
Might splurge every once in a while. But, you know, you know, you have people that help
you and you want to help them back? So I feel good about it.
Kathleen Clark 22:38
So being a person of color living in Minneapolis, has it been different since George Floyd
died in any way? Or is it been basically the same as far as like, just feeling any more
pressures or microaggressions? or any of those things?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 22:57
With me, Katie, I try not to even think on that. You know, like I said, it's times are changing,
and it's gonna keep going on and on. No matter one group wants to stop it and change it,
or another group just keeps escalating. It's just gonna keep doing and like I said, I just, I
Mercedes 2021
Page 7 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
just live my life and take care of me. I'm not worried about all that. It's gonna happen. You
know, I'm saying, you turn on your TV and something else is happening. You know, but
Kathleen Clark 23:40
I would say you take care of others too. You take care of me. Well, is there anything else
you'd like to add? Or?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 23:51
Yes, Augsburg, every times a nurse celebrates? We're gonna have pizza party, right?
Kathleen Clark 24:01
I love it. Okay, bye. We're sitting by the door. So everyone's waving if they leave. Thank
you so much,
M
Mercedes Ramsey 24:11
you're welcome
Kathleen Clark 24:11
This concludes our interview for the day and thanks for taking the time.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 24:17
No, problem.
Mercedes 2021
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Stefan 2021: Part 1
Thu, 7/29 10:25AM
4:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, opinionated, grandfather, oral history project, chicago, understand, surrendered, streets,
east st louis, central, people, haywood, commons, lutheran, oral health, educated, spirit, folk,
sociology, shared
SPEAKERS
S... Show more
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Thu, 7/29 10:25AM
4:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, opinionated, grandfather, oral history project, chicago, understand, surrendered, streets,
east st louis, central, people, haywood, commons, lutheran, oral health, educated, spirit, folk,
sociology, shared
SPEAKERS
Stefan, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:03
Thank you for joining us today for this oral health, oral history project for the Augsburg
University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, I'm a student intern with
Augsburg Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
S
Stefan 00:17
Yes, my name is Mr Stefan Lesure.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:21
Thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having this interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
S
Stefan 00:32
Absolutely. Thank you.
Isaac Tadé 00:34
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Page 1 of 3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:34
Excellent. All right, So can you tell me about where you grew up, and who you call family.
S
Stefan 00:39
I grew up in Chicago on the west side of Chicago. My family's from Kansas City, Missouri,
Sikeston Haywood city, East St Louis, St Louis. I grew up on the west side of Chicago. So
again like I said, it was never my intention to even be here in the state of Minnesota, let
alone be houseless I've never in my life been homeless because homelessness is emptiness
and I'm not empty at all.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:14
Yeah, so, okay, who do you call family than?
S
Stefan 01:18
I call what I call my family is what I call the old spirit. My grandfather's my uncle's my
Auntie's and even though they passed away that was always this thing my grandfather,
learned me about looking people and eye, he would not even talk to you. If you didn't
look him in the eye. You know you was not, he didn't know who you was and he didn't
communicate with you, he didn't know how to unless he looked you in the eyes and once
he looked you in the eyes, it was just like it was...It was just a totally different person that
you saw looking back at you. And I've kept that old spirit in my in my heart and in my
mind for years. I'm a writer. I had over 180,000 pages of history of a degree in sociology.
I'm also an educator in the streets with 54 years of lived experience and in the streets of
Chicago, and 12 in the streets of Minneapolis.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:24
Yes sir. So it sounds like you gravitate towards your elders towards people who have come
before you and who have shared their insights their experiences with you.
S
Stefan 02:34
Absolutely, it's called folk ways and folk tales, to be able to sit down with the young black
man and understand how he has to be educated, not how he wants to be educated, how
he has to be educated. The only true form of education for black man in this, it, it basically
is not existed in the world we live in today, and that's a shame. You know it's really a
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shame.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:09
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, the next question would be can you tell me more
about how you got involved with Street Voices of Change.
S
Stefan 03:20
After being in state of Minnesota for three years, lost my job, lost my apartment. And I
understood that if I surrendered and became a part of the establishment that I can never
again hold my head up. So a friend of mine had brought me to the church when he was
the old church. And I said, and one day and it kinda was crazy, because at that time when
we first started out, everybody was opinionated so you really had to ask patience for
people telling you "man I've been at it for years," but over the course of five years, we've
learned one another, and we've learned the needs in certain cases, what causes those
needs to be and what causes the problem to be Street Voices, Central Lutheran, say, I
have since day one I considered it to be my sacred place of peace.
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Stefan 2021: Part 2
Thu, 7/29 10:30AM
55:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, call, streets, minnesota, ai, state, education, situation, pandemic, apartment, homeless,
community, young black man, world, stay, son, black, involved, understand, churches
SPEAKERS
Stefan, Isaac Tadé
S
Stefan 00:01
Central Lutheran is my sacred place of peace, five years, if I'm not if I'm in this state I'm in
Central Lutheran on Thursday morning there's no other place to I'd be. And that is a true
commitment to a situation that's growing in a different directions but mentally, people
like becoming to understand that the burden of proof is not on the state it's on the
individual, starting with the individual. If you in the state of Minnesota don't have a clear
cut agenda, you will become a foreign of its fast pace. And that fast paced is basically no
return on that.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:56
So that's how you got involved, you wanted to stay ahead of that pace,
S
Stefan 01:00
you decide on the natural educator. My father was the head of the Kansas City Missouri
literacy program and my first book that I wrote, stating that I wanted to be that same
individual because it was all natural for me. I'm the only black man in American history, to
ever be called by two presidents to ever create a program called Community
Beautification that would have closed down to Illinois state prisons, until the police
department figured out that they didn't want me involved because they had a different
agenda. Under the rules of displacement. Now it's, you know, I'm here today and I speak
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to David Hewitt about this every day and every week and every chance I get about
people. There's no way possible that you can uproot 5 million black folks who stay in the
country, and 5 million other foreigners who come into the country, get an apartment, and
just leave them to hang in a system that's what I call tedious and meticulous, a process of
dehumanization that has no return on punishing. Thank you.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:29
Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. So what can you tell me about life before the
pandemic, and what is different for you now, because a COVID-19?
S
Stefan 02:42
Before the pandemic, that was, that was a lot of hope, a lot of trust a lot of faith building
we went from four meetings a week back down to none, and then we opened up with 10
people. And the saddest part about it is to see that the African American community,
basically had nowhere else to turn, but to those churches who would open their doors in
the homeless community because I don't care what you say man, if it wasn't for Katie and
them and the nurses, nurses were the first persons who got me a bed when I was having, I
had to have surgery. They got me into an apartment, it wasn't the case manager it was
the homeless nurse. You know, and ever since I put back whenever I can, and brought a
greater understanding to what I consider to be a housing situation, and a situation of
people who, Minnesota is a, is a very dangerous state. I'll say that because it affords you,
and allows you to be comfortable, when you really shouldn't be comfortable. It allows you
to become content, and you really shouldn't be content. In that sense for a young, an
uneducated black man that's a dangerous, dangerous environment to be in. And I've
watched this situation for 12 years just grow and grow and grow. Nobody has one time
and for the last five years I beat education all the way from Street Voices to Change to
the capital. There's no way around it, you know, you can you can bow you can you can
build a million houses right here right now. And they'll tear them down in two days,
because they're not educated. And they have this hate in their heart because they're in
the streets at night, and nobody understands that. You think because you gave him an
apartment, that doesn't fulfill the void that he hasn't had any love and compassion,
respect and any honor. That's what's important to me. So I continue to do what I do I get
in the streets every day, five days a week, and communicate with people. I've put a few
young kids in college, and they've come through and it was like, bro, I've got a few kids
back in the house with their momma. Back letting them know man, the power of surrender,
let them go home with some flowers, wash the dishes and take out the garbage, and that
you ain't going to smoke in the house. That's all she asks! That's a roof over your head,
until you can do better. And it seems to be that it's Minnesota's is just conflict orientated.
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It's like a step by step process. Once you get St. Olaf card, you're considered non existent.
You know, they don't respect or honor education, intelligence, or any of that. It's all about
getting $1 immediately. And that's the most dangerous setup for young parents, for
children for your community, because these are the things that are transferred, whether
we want them to be or not we can have the best intentions for our children. But if you
have them among toxic waste, nine times out of 10. It will suffer from it.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:55
And is that what you see manifest during the pandemic?
S
Stefan 06:59
Pandemic was most more frightening than that, it created a lot of withdrawals, created a
lot of isolation. It created a lot of separation with family. Fear is the most powerful tool in
the state of Minnesota. I'm afraid that I'm gonna lose something that I really don't have
anyway. You have to have something to lose. You ain't got something... Right, you don't
have nothing. And that's what homelessness is, that's what that statement is homeless.
Homelessness is simply means you void of any substance. I'm full of life.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:52
right
S
Stefan 07:53
full of life I seek the good and all things, no matter what.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:57
And that's, and that's why through the pandemic. Well, even before pre pandemic, you've
made it a mission to fulfill though that hierarchy of needs right first of all, first of all you
need clothing, water, shelter, and then after that, you know those things you can start to
feel those social needs, and an education and that's what you've brought to the table.
S
Stefan 08:20
It's a real strange situation to see our young black men and women's who are only
motivated by music and motivated by material things. And everybody becomes a victim,
under those circumstances, what do you believe it or not. Strangest thing I've ever seen in
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the state of Minnesota as a young gentleman who had been homeless. We've been in the
streets begging. finally got a Social Security finally got his apartment. And he took these
people home because he lived with him in the street. Four days after he had this
apartment, they tore the apartment up, got him kicked out. And he's still homeless to this
day. And that just let me know that there's no boundaries. And if you deal with people who
don't have boundaries, they have some problem. That's why it's so important that I have
rules. Rules I have laws I have aspirations, that must be, not just for the sake of me, but for
the sake of our community of what's left of our community. It's, I don't even know how to
say it anymore. My grandfather used to tell me that "true beauty never shrinks nor does it
wear thin. But the truth of that has to be in your spirit may not be the next man spirit has
to be in yours." In order for you to see clear go forward. And that's been the joy of being
here, to be able to call pastor Melissa and say hey you know I aint feeling this one. And
she would sit down and actually tell you, "me neither. But here's what you have to do, not
what you can do, not what you want to do, what you have to do in order to get back to
what you..."
I
Isaac Tadé 10:50
Your, your best self.
S
Stefan 10:52
Thank you. That's what I've, that's the approach I've taken. Never once considered myself
homelessness. The strangest thing in the world when I was staying at the Salvation Army, I
have what you call the internal alarm clock. I go to bed at nine o'clock but I'm up at 3:30.
Doesn't give if I'm drunk or what, I'm up by 330. And I got up every morning and I cleaned
the two washrooms. Cleaning the dining room. A after a year and a half into this. I was
told that "we don't want to going, we don't want you cleaning up the washroom, makes
our employees look bad." Well you crazy, the employee look bad because the washroom
looks bad! That's why I'm cleaning.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:43
and that's the way you feel you can contribute
S
Stefan 11:44
Ain't a doubt about it. But the beauty of that is, everybody didn't learn from those few who
did learn from it, when they got the apartments they understood the value of keeping
things cleanly, keeping your associates in the streets, and giving yourself at least 30 days
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to acclimate to your own room. I get to see feedback every day in the streets, there's, I
don't think there's 20 people that walk downtown, on a day to day basis that I've ever
met, before seen before, I've spoken to all the ID, all the police downtown all the security
downtown. And nobody, and this is shame, this is the shameful part. Nobody wants to get
involved. I keep hearing that same old, same old song. They don't care.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:49
who's they?
S
Stefan 12:50
the people who you see as different from who you are because you work a job because
you got an apartment and who are in the streets, sit on corners who drink or smoke, or
steal. But what we fail to realize is that was transferred to them they were born into that.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:12
They're born into that mentality raised in it
S
Stefan 13:14
Indeed! I mean yo mama smoke crack she got 45 guys coming in and out the back door.
Well, let's keep it real, this, this frustrates a young black man, and he becomes so abusive
behind that because he become gaurded, he don't want to tell nobody that he was broken
by what he seen from his mother. So he treats every woman like she's broke. And that's,
that's the part that we have to get out of the only way we can get out of it (*knocks on
table), "Hey are you doing?" You have to see something different, in order to know
somethings different. You have to be consistent power with that. That's why Street Voices
says, we decided that we'll wait till the meetings over when we have a debrief and then
you can say what you like. But in during these meeting, These are rules.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:06
These are the rules you abide by them.
S
Stefan 14:09
And once you learn that it becomes a valuable situation, then that plays a part in your life
you'll see yourself being separated from all the confusion. Another thing about Minnesota.
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This is the only group of people in the whole state that's ever mentioned, a power of
education, and never asked the question, that's why David Hewitt kept coming back. Why
can you go without it? If your son is in steet with a third grade education, his homie got a
fifth grade education, homie got a second grade education. Another guy never been in
school. What do you think's going to come out of that? That's a disaster waiting to
happen.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:00
Nothing much nothing good Because we went to the challenge game, we enter the rap
music that elevates what you think how you feel, our children that become images that
they follow. They see you do some, they can't let you out, so they overdo it, and then
overdo until somebody else gets hurt to the process. And they become susceptible, like
second nature. That's that conflict is in our communities. It's not education, not further
progress. You got neighbors who don't even speak to each other. That's what Street Voices
wants to get to the point of being able to actually sit you down and show you the
difference between one mental mindset and the other mental mindset. The streets make
you guarded. You ain't got to do nothing, only see it one time, and when you see it again...
It might be too late.
S
Stefan 16:05
So you need to get involved, overreact and put yourself in a bad situation is
acknowledging it running away from it. This is what I don't separate. We young black men
don't have the power to courage. Don't do the influences in the streets today, under the
drugs that's in the streets today. When you have 13 year old boy telling you he got to have
his medicine, you tripping your own ride bruh. What you want to do about your medicine
when you get locked up, because it's coming. You keep going in these people's stores, it's
coming. And when it comes, you should be grateful that it came like that. And that this
often hurts, and we don't, but they don't even fear that no more. You know that's a damn
shame, they don't even think scared to die. Living in world is nothing no way, but it's not
that. It's that we, it is something that I was deeply thankful for. It's always come back to
the part you play before you can see and accept what they did, know why you got
involved, yeah. Know why you got involved, right, and once you know that, there's no need
to get mad, because you see the part that you play. And that should be a growth process.
I have a friend who I had called and asked her that question every night. "What have you
learned today, from all of that's been learned you?" Keeping a positive outlook is a must in
keeping sanity in this homeless community, because you see some things that just
mindblowing. totally mindblowing. Man got mad at the police took off all his cleaning, "so
you want to shake me now?" he got on the police guy. I mean this is, where do you go from
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that? so you use that as a measuring rod? you can't, you can't use a measuring rod, unless
you communicate. Forget what I think, forget what they say. And here's another thing
that's the most dangerous thing about Minnesota. They use mental injuries and mental
health issues as a problem, and it is come up, murder, murder and murder. Because he
had been mental health issues. My thinking is, you acknowledged the fact that he had
mental health issues, you bag up to get those who are qualified to deal with that situation,
and they don't do that. They won't do that,
I
Isaac Tadé 16:38
treat it as a health crisis rather than
S
Stefan 19:14
okay, perfect example when they get to the capitol of the day when the senator was
having a meeting, the lady drove up to Capitol step, drove around, drank smoke right
there in front of police around it. And then they said well it's a mental health crisis and the
brother said "bruh if it had been a black man, you would have drug him out of the car,
right there on the spot. You put her in the car with no handcufs come on, didn't do any of
that"
I
Isaac Tadé 19:42
right.
S
Stefan 19:43
These rules don't apply to certain people in the state. And if I will make a difference in I'm
gonna have to be extraordinary patient,
I
Isaac Tadé 19:56
yes sir.
S
Stefan 19:58
extraordinarily humble, because I've been had people call me a group of bitches and
howlers and I had never been none of that. Where I come from we didn't even allow that.
But understanding that if I allow you to pull me off my square and get into what you went
to, then I'm the damn fool. Because would you say it didn't leave a scratch or mark on me.
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Okay, that's how you feel, I can't change that.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:31
But you choosing to step low at that level, it's your choice.
S
Stefan 20:35
Right. The choices you make, you have to be conscious of that because you live in in this
baby so fast paced, you wouldn't be. It is demonic to see a 12 year old girl, trying to trick a
grown man out of some money. And it's, it's the demonic, but it is what it is. If, if I don't get
involved then, where else do I go? You get involved on and changing it. Would you accept
it and become a part of it? You close your eyes on it, you are a part of it.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:16
Yes sir, yes sir.
S
Stefan 21:20
I put a request slip in your box that I have a paper 18 pages long, it's called "A Condensed
Product" of 180,000 pages is called critical thinking, writing means stop exchange
abruptly like abruptly. But these topics are critical topics. Who are you? Who will you
allow yourself to become? What's learned behavior? How culturally conscious are you?
What part do you play? And a lot of us don't even think along those lines no more. When
the last time you read a book?
I
Isaac Tadé 22:07
Personally me?
S
Stefan 22:07
No, I'm saying, the last time you see, you have a few, and here's the sad part. Those who
do read in the homeless community, they read out of isolation. They don't read to better
hands, better, they read out of isolation, and they don't share nothing that they read.
"None of your business that you (*grumbles)..." you know, because it's their entertaiment.
It's not something that should be spread around.
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I
Isaac Tadé 22:38
Right.
S
Stefan 22:39
Our churches have failed in a lot of ways because African American churches because
they like to do things their own way, it's about what God said, it's not about walking the
walk is about your perception of what this book says istead of doing the basic things,
which is allowing the child, be the child to become the adolescent to become the young
adult and understanding these processes, and understanding that, especially not black
schools. When I growed up we had big kids we after school programs, there was none of
that. So, where do you son go after school? If your son, going to school with two phones
and a speaker, you think you're going to learn? You can't be your son's friend. You got to
be his momma. You know, "my baby. No baby." That aint no baby. That man, six foot 2. 19
years old he aint no kid. But you still buying him $150 Gym shoe. And when you can't buy
them, he got no job, no skills where you're going? In street. And that's what they do. 12, 13
years old. Rob and car jacking, with the first time something happens to do so that you
know is in the street, "My baby. My baby." Ma'am your baby is not your baby, quit playin
with yourself. You need to grow up.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:26
It's about being honest with the situation,
S
Stefan 24:29
No doubt about it. When I was growing, if I bought anybody home, my mama went up to
her like "Yo, yo, who your mama, where you live at? Matter of fact wait on the porch till I
call. That's how crazy my mama was.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:45
actually to verify.
S
Stefan 24:49
Well you know your son over here? And you'll see come. So we're with...if I brought you
home, and my mamma didn't know your mamma? If I gotta ass whooping, you gotta have
a an ass whooping, guarantee. That don't happen no more. "Don't mess with my son." So
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we have a lot of things to grow up to. But the one thing I really want to state is there's
been what you call a Hocus Pocus, the state of Minnesota. 12 years you 46,000 new
housing. Not 1% is low income. No more than 1%. That 1% comes in the suburbs, not in
the inner city, so they can take you and throw you out in Coon Rapids, Robbinsdale and
Hopkins, but these are 2, 3, 4, 5 different people. It's not a community of people, they don't
want to, I don't want that to happen anymore. The only communities is what you call a
middle class community, which is a suburb. And Minneapolis has a golden opportunity.
No, the African Americans in Minneapolis have a golden opportunity but there's no way
you can bring these people together, because everybody has their own agenda.
Everybody, the churches, all the black churches have different agendas, going in different
directions. All the programs, who get three, $400,000 a year are going in different
directions, instead of restoring the arms a unity, come together so first goal is "let's build
the building with the apartments, and we can have the programs on display, right here,
but it has to be one situation." Your program doesn't have to change. The only thing
changes is your trust and respect for the people that you deal with. And that's what we,
for some reason we can't seem to bring that together.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:22
What we lack is some unity. And I think I saw that a lot during the pandemic too, just with
leadership across the state across the country, across the world. You know
S
Stefan 27:33
There was you no... specially the statements so there was no black unity shown there was
no groups of black people gathered around giving out information, doing any of that. It
was all isolated incident. Churchs were just was trying to hold on to its members. Right,
doing all of these solicitations and all of that because you couldn't be in church, right, but
it was not a group of people a constituency to say "man as a collective, let's get back out
here, and let's reunite our communities." that will be the easiest thing in the world, only
two churches and your community. Mean to tell me y'all can't put together one project? I
mean to actually... black owned businessman won't even do business for black, black
owned landlords won't even rent to black men. So I mean this is an up hilll struggle, and
I'm just grateful that I have a conscious mind. To continue forward.
I
Isaac Tadé 28:34
It's a state of mind. Yes sir
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S
Stefan 28:41
Not being on never been, never will be homeless. no doubt about it. Yes sir. Yes, I need
some help. I aint affraid of that. Aint no getting frustrated, throwing a brick through a
window, none of that. You will ask for what you want, and if they don't provide? Patients.
Step two, step three, and step four. It's always gonna be a step left though, don't quit,
always, always, you can't throw your hands up.
I
Isaac Tadé 29:22
Speaking of, sorry to interrupt you here. Speaking of that mentality. What has brought you
home through this last year? You talking about putting one foot in front of the other what
helps you to do that.
S
Stefan 29:37
The people that I speak to every day in the streets. The mothers who've seen me, I'm glad
to talk my son, you know, your inspiration in the streets you know only OG out here, really
talks with some good sense. That means a lot because we're in a time and age where the
communication game is not about communication is about texting, chat rooms you know
hollar back. It's pretend forms, it's always about ducking everybody in the street. It's hard
to have a conversation with somebody on the phone you talk to personal phone, he'll text
your back "No, I don't feel like that." And that gives you nothing. That gives you no
inspiration I come from a family of people from my great grandfather to my father's
uncles when you have to sit down, you actually look these people in the eye. You want
some help, you have to actually communicate with these people. Right? There was never
no aggressive, nothing. This is what you want. This is what you get.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:58
And so for you it's been the communicate through this last year. Yes sir, especially in such
like an isolating time.
S
Stefan 31:07
Right. That was, that was a time when I think was back in February March when this first
pandemic first came down. It was hard to even communicate with people ain't nobody,
want to "back up"
Isaac Tadé 31:23
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I
Isaac Tadé 31:23
6 feet
S
Stefan 31:23
Yeah, it was it was it was a panic situation, especially on the buses. You know how many
911 calls Metro transit had right in the state of Minnesota, about you not being, "you got to
have your mask on, or get off the bus." The state is. I'm not going to say the state. The
African American communities throughout inner Minneapolis has basically become afraid
of one another. What I mean by that is that if you have a neighbor that doesn't trust you,
he doesn't respect you because he feels like you are not trustworthy for whatever reasons,
that just keeps going down the line and up the block, then your community is following.
Because your eyes is not on the community, it's on your neighbor.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:02
right.
S
Stefan 32:17
We have to get away from that, learn how to trust again we have to learn how to respect.
And that's not the easy thing, you know this sounds easy as I'm saying it's not easy to put
into play, right, especially for those kids who really never had no compassion on spending
quality time. They mama riding them around in the stroller smoking weed with them, them
in a store stealing. You know, I don't know if African Americans understand it, that's the
greatest gift we have is our ability to adjust, adapt, but if you're not afforded the
opportunity to know what you're adjusting to and what you adapted to. If you just go on
along to something that's been second nature in your life for the last 10 years of your life,
this why you can't do, how you will afford a child? He set the garage on fire. But you
bought him the videos, you you spoiled him, in the end you told him no. That's how you
got to that point. You know he was doing good for five or 10 years. Buying him shoes. Now
you don't have a job, money funny. You can't do nothing for him. And you can even
communicate with it.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:06
So my next question was going to be about. If people could, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, and it already. Sounds
like you've gotten into that,
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S
Stefan 34:21
yes, it will be education is the most frightening thing about young African American in the
state of Minnesota. They have zero history. Zero history of African Americans. I was trying
to explain 1964. They called it a riot. Black Panthers marched on the White House for
equality in jobs that summer. And they said, riot. Here, when they went to the Capitol, you
knocked the windows out you're went in and killed people. You call that an insurrection.
And right after 1964 you call it all out, you said we were militant. That's, militant means
that you're dangerous.
I
Isaac Tadé 35:25
Yes sir,
S
Stefan 35:25
Insurrection means that it's just organize thing that went wrong. but that's not what
happened. I saw what happened, and it's the first time in my life. Fifty-nine years later, I
got a chance to see what you call the proud boys, and how y'all truly operate.
I
Isaac Tadé 35:45
Right.
S
Stefan 35:46
And I still have a question. If you hadn't been authorization to be here, there was no way
in the world you could have drilled all the machines up there to climb up the stairs. No
way. So you was authorized. It just didn't turn out right. But that's a lesson for us, as young
black men, to know the difference of the treatments that come about because of white
privilege,
I
Isaac Tadé 36:17
and that's about knowing that history.
S
Stefan 36:21
I mean, Minnesota is a beautiful state. I love to see all colors of people come together.
Yeah, but that's the best surface level. Right, right, behind the scenes and there is some
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demonic people.
I
Isaac Tadé 36:38
Just because you have diversity doesn't mean that you have cooperation, you can have
tolerance. But that's not on the same level as cooperation, integration,
S
Stefan 36:50
and that's the new. That's the new form of education that they put towards black people.
Let me give you another example, every black man in the country, not just in the state of
Minnesota, knows that the state is what you call a free enterprise. So you can get your
issue on any corner that you want in this state. And that's their focus. They're not realizing
what comes behind the scenes. There's no structure, no order. Then there's chaos. And we
have a word about that. My fear for Minnesota is that in the next three years if it doesn't
change, it will be the most violent state in this country. No, it will be the most violent state
in the country to north, south, northeast Minneapolis, basically a daycare center, where
you have all these 250 groups of people that have 250 different ideas. They're going to
one in 250 directions, they get the money, like the father program project. You get $10
milion dollars, 90 days later you can't give a guy a bus card you can't buy him shoes when
you go get a job. Not a program is working.
I
Isaac Tadé 38:14
Nope
S
Stefan 38:15
you have an 85,000 year executive 100,000 executive. But none of this money is come to
the table. maybe 10% out of $10 million, hit the street, and the rest was in payroll property.
But property that has nothing to do with rehabilitating a mind. You know when you find a
father who's willing to get back to being a father, now that a hell of a thing. When you
kind of lose yourself and think you can become a great hustler in the world, you realized
when you go to jail and you realize that sitting for me it was a night isn't worth it. So I got
to get back to doing what I'm doing. And once you get back there, the help that they say
is there, there's not. It's not that. You get up yourself stuck out there trying to raise three
boys, is not a joke. Especially you ain't got no job. It's not a joke, right, you ain't got no
skills. You don't think you have is the learned behavior that you've learned in the streets.
Let's not a provider, that's a death wish. Yeah, and that's why it's so important that we
reiterate, education, history, not on the level of being man, back to what I see, what have I
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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learned today, all that. That's a constant evaluation of everyday assessed reflection.
Thank you. If you lose one day. Don't be ashamed, not
I
Isaac Tadé 40:14
to put your pride aside,
S
Stefan 40:19
have pride? I don't play with that, that's a dangerous thing. No, not in these streets. And
then it's, they can't let go. I mean you can get into the smallest thing but you can't let go.
I
Isaac Tadé 40:38
I've seen it. It's real. I'm gonna just ask you a few more questions, geared for towards
health, the bottom there. What would you say that you need for health, as you define it,
what's helped for you and what you need to have good health?
S
Stefan 40:56
good health? I need to be able to get to the store do my own shopping, cooking, my own
create my own exercise program. through various question asking various situations. We'll
start with, with mental health. you aint thinking right, if you ain't feeling good mentally.
nine times out of 10, you wont feel good, spiritually, feel physically. And that's the way I
look at it, I have to, I mean there's no such thing is not able. It's no such thing as bad. And
if you feel like that, maybe you need to sit down and re evaluate the situation, because
there's no such thing as that. We got here we can get back. I believe that and if I didn't
believe that I wouldn't be out in the streets every day trying to convey that message with
other people. I have this...It's not a poem, its a statement, says "true gratitude is that which
emanates within us and pushes it's way out of us to shine in full view." And in doing that,
it's a genuis quality that you build upon on the day to day basis. I don't want to make it
seem like this is crazy, crazy, cause it's not. You have to really do some growing up, really
really growing up to actually get past this situation to not be frustrated not just want to
surrendered. And I mean it seriously, man, wake up in the shelter you ain't got no shoes,
man you got shoes. You know I'm saying you come in the washroom and you, and you
hang your shirt up to wash up, that man come in, take your shirt and put it on infront of
you. You have a choice here. You either will get fustrated till you come about my shirt,
which will possibly be a problem because you got an issue. So now I got to go to man, to
say Man, look man, but man, just pick the shirt, and I ain't going to trip. I just need
overshare to like get to target man, you have to you have to you have to be willing to
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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make those sacrifices. If you're not, you'll find yourself in all kinds of conflicts and so
I
Isaac Tadé 44:01
yes sir,
S
Stefan 44:03
We have to have, not only do you have to want something, you have to understand what
it takes to get there. And sometimes it's not pleasant it is not easy.
I
Isaac Tadé 44:15
Thank you. Yes, thank you for sharing that. Um, the next question is, have you met the
nurses at Central. And then, or, you know, Central Health Commons. Is there any
feedback that you have for them.
S
Stefan 44:30
Oh wow. Yes, I've met the nurses at Central. We went out on a few runs to the homeless
encampments. We even found ourselves in a curious situation. And it turned out to be a
truly education situation and thanking Katie for that, I had to tip my hat for that. And I've
also had to deal with the nurses here at Central Lutheran in personal situations. Be able
to start to my blood pressure, and that got so high that I'm actually scared to go to that
hospital. I mean which still don't seem like it makes good sense but I refuse to leave here
too! so it all turned out to be in the best interest because after she did what she did, I had
to actually go to the hospital. And if she hadn't have, my thing is that if I hadn't been here.
That's my concern if I hadn't been here, then what may have happened if I was in the
streets? Somebody might have left me on the bench. "Oh he drunk. He high. See his eyes."
Maybe maybe got kidney problems, maybe
I
Isaac Tadé 45:56
could be a number of thing
S
Stefan 45:58
there's a number of things but for you to just look at me and measure me. You don't know.
So that's what I'm aiming to really try and educate us and bring this back to our point
where we can transfer. Since displacement. There's been nothing. We're able to transfer to
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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our childrens. Our homes are gone, our communities are going. We become frustrated at
all the wrong things so we become frustrated and want to know.
I
Isaac Tadé 46:39
Take your time.
S
Stefan 46:44
It would be the simplest thing in the world, I have a program I really like to run across the
North Minneapolis is just a six blocks program a piece where you people have all these
homes and you're not willing to put in 20, 30 dollars a month, buy these properties in your
community. And whatever you use for daycare center after school programs peace
houses...But in order to do that you have to bring interest to the community. And that's
hard. That's the saddest part about North Minneapolis, South Minneapolis is halfway
there. North Minneapolis is like...frightening to where you can't trust neighborhood that
you live next to 20 years You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 47:45
take your time. You want me to get you a water?
S
Stefan 48:01
I'm not a resident, let's say, a willing resident of Minneapolis. But since I'm here. This is like
desire to understand the true needs of what has to be done not what I want to do. What
has to be done for us to be able to pass that along. I want to give you a copy of this
excerpt to this book that I wrote. It's called The Ghetto That Lived in my Head,
I
Isaac Tadé 48:39
That'd be incredible. Thank you.
S
Stefan 48:40
Yes. The Augsburg college right over here,man.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:47
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Yes sir,
S
Stefan 48:47
but you will be going to stay in Minnesota?
I
Isaac Tadé 48:49
yes sir.
S
Stefan 48:50
Leave you information with Pastor Melissa.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:53
Thank you,
S
Stefan 48:53
so I'd get a copy of this. It's the education that 90% of African men...It's not in the schools,
language itself is kind of frightening because it's not these terms not used anymore. It's
simply important education is no longer important to most inner city kids, you have your
young black man whose family's fortunate enough to grow up in a suburb, you might get
a chance to play baseball. Maybe the chance to play professional basketball. Might even
get the chance to play hockey.
I
Isaac Tadé 49:49
Right.
S
Stefan 49:52
In the Northside Southside? It's not happening. Because they're going to pull you down. I
mean to see a young black man who spoke. I'll give you a perfect example, friend of mine,
stays on Broadway. Son got drafted to the NBA, he was shot in the back of the head here
on Lyndale Park, out of Walgreens. And guess who did it? you wouldn't believe
Isaac Tadé 50:21
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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I
Isaac Tadé 50:21
Somebody real close.
S
Stefan 50:23
His best friend. That is the saddest shit. To struggle to achieve that. Somebody just wiped
it out, like it don't mean nothing. that's what, that's where we at. And that's why I'm
committed to making a difference. You don't have the finances, you don't have the actual
people but you do have the heart, and your courage. So we sit like pastor Melissa say,
watch your eyes, not yet, we aint got time yet. You get enough people around you, and
this is a slow process. Yes, to get people like David Hewett involved, Trish Stature involved
and other politicians involved, then you can throw him in jail something put something
together. I've been, hawking David for the last two years about that, education,
education, education, Youth Link won't get involved anymore. Then they call people over
to their office, you follow this. When you get when you get through leaving, they give you
12 tokens. Now you tell me what youth is not showing up for 12 tokens you bought him a
blunt. You bought him a bag and a blunt.
I
Isaac Tadé 52:12
right,
S
Stefan 52:13
well let's keep it real. You asked him to show up and sign a few papers, so you can get the
next dollar, but they're not pushing back anything. They're just showing up for the tokens.
You're not asking you to sign these two papers how you still ain't got no house still ain't
got no education. And when we went to Youth Link, in terms of what you're not shelters
are 24 hours now. How many people can you think you could get signed up for GED
program? College program, a trade school? And they didn't even get involved! Because
it's too complex. Why would we have to do that, we just get them to sign this, they want
to do something they can do it on their own. people providng them the 12 tokens. and are
you crazy? because that's how it go. Yeah, that's true. Okay.
I
Isaac Tadé 53:12
Yes, thank you for sharing all that. Very very insightful. Um, do you have any feedback for
health commons, is there anything that we could be doing better. Is there anything that's
missing from health commons?
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S
Stefan 53:28
Oh, absolutely not. No. Okay, let's see. As I said, if it wasn't for the homeless, before, not
even here in central Lutheran I'm talking about the Dignity Center and other places, who
went out on a limb for me, I wouldn't have been able to have a place to stay during my
surgery in my healing process. If it wasn't for homeless kind soulsm and Katie's been 1000
ever since.
I
Isaac Tadé 54:00
Yeah, yeah. Wow, gratefulness grateful. That's incredible. I'm so happy that they were
there for you
S
Stefan 54:08
yes indeed You happy? i was grateful.
I
Isaac Tadé 54:11
That's right. Well I think that concludes our interview for today. Thank you for so much for
taking the time to share, share your story, your insight your words of advice. Your thoughts
S
Stefan 54:24
I'll get that for you and Katie. The first one is Hidden In Plain Sight. Okay. You have to kind
of read paragraph by paragraph, cause like I say it's critical thinking
I
Isaac Tadé 54:39
dig it
S
Stefan 54:40
and abrupt writing. The writing change but the mental mind has to stay focused on the
subject as a whole. Each one of those subjects changed. So, you will have to keep reading
then making the subject matter. I would really like to do what I call the speaking thing to
where as though, you can actually expound on a topic. As you, as you read that. But I can't
seem to find that platform. You found one.
Isaac Tadé 55:21
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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I
Isaac Tadé 55:21
That's fine. Thank you very much.
Stefan 2021: Part 2
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Show less
Tyra Thomas 2021
Thu, 7/29 12:23PM
25:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, justice, happening, community, floyd, affordable housing, george, street, folks,
voices, struggles, commons, stay, nurse, grew, augsburg, salvation army, minneapolis, heard
SPEAKERS
Tyra, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac T... Show more
Tyra Thomas 2021
Thu, 7/29 12:23PM
25:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, justice, happening, community, floyd, affordable housing, george, street, folks,
voices, struggles, commons, stay, nurse, grew, augsburg, salvation army, minneapolis, heard
SPEAKERS
Tyra, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
Okay, here we go. Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the
Augsburg University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade, I'm a student
intern with Augsburg Central Health commons, could you please introduce yourself for the
recording.
T
Tyra 00:19
My name is Tyra Thomas.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:22
Thank you, Tyra. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to
being interviewed, and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be
made available to the public.
T
Tyra 00:36
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:38
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 1 of 15
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Thank you. Okay, so can you tell me about where you grew up and who you call family.
T
Tyra 00:42
I grew up in South Minneapolis Powderhorne Park neighborhood. I have lived in suburban
areas as well like Orno, Wayzata, Long Lake, Eagan, but I grew up in South Minneapolis
and who I call family is my community of homeless and Street Voices of Change, church
family, and I am the oldest child of three.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:11
Okay. Do you have any kids?
T
Tyra 01:13
I do. I have two children, one passed away. My oldest is 35.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:21
Okay. Excellent, thank you for sharing. Sounds like you have a lot of you have a big family.
T
Tyra 01:26
Yes, and I have three grandchildren.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:27
Oh, perfect, perfect. That's awesome. Okay, so can you tell me about how you got
involved with Street Voices of Change?
T
Tyra 01:39
Wow. Street Voices Change is about to have its five year anniversary,
I
Isaac Tadé 01:44
taking it all the way back
Tyra 01:45
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 2 of 15
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T
Tyra 01:45
then when we got together. It was a small group, just a handful of people. And it was
conversation around conditions at shelter. In particular the target was Salvation Army,
where all of our complaints were coming from, and within a year, the group grew from one
location to four.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:14
Wow, I didn't even know that.
T
Tyra 02:16
that's how much conversation and concerns folks had about conditions and treatment at
shelter.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:25
And so you were a part of the original group that founded Street Voices.
T
Tyra 02:31
Yes, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:32
Wow. So you've seen, you've seen the full history of the program.
T
Tyra 02:38
Yes, watch it evolve to where we are now at the capital is just awesome.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:44
That's incredible.
T
Tyra 02:44
Yeah,
Tyra Thomas 2021
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I
Isaac Tadé 02:45
Wow, Well first of all I got to say congratulations.
T
Tyra 02:47
Thank you
I
Isaac Tadé 02:48
and, and this is this is awesome and thank you for letting me be a small part of it. So what
did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for you now because of
COVID-19.
T
Tyra 03:05
Before the pandemic. I don't own a vehicle before the pandemic. I traveled a lot, so I was
always going across someone's community and seeing people I've may have seen in a
while, or being able to interact with folks. Being able to travel, because now I live a ways
from the city which is about an hour bus ride, And so it really hampered my traveling, and
because I didn't want to be exposed, right, of course, and it's going to happen the bus
would be one way
I
Isaac Tadé 03:44
and public transportation was down.
T
Tyra 03:46
Yes, and public transportation was down, so it was really hard to get around. Also I had, I
have a mental health specialist that comes to visit me, and that stops. So that was
hampering. We still had telecommunication where you can turn the phone but it's not the
same,
I
Isaac Tadé 04:09
of course,
T
Tyra 04:10
Tyra Thomas 2021
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you know, it's just like, you know Facebook people can say wherever they want or they can
send you a text say whatever they want, but looking at people's eyes, and they say, "How
you doing," you're saying "no, how you doing for real,"
I
Isaac Tadé 04:21
right, feeling them in the room.
T
Tyra 04:23
Yes, in the energy and space so that was different and difficult, of course, to deal with.
Let's see.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:34
You talked about your extended family. Were you able to see them throughout the
pandemic or no.
T
Tyra 04:41
Yeah, that was difficult, like my mother. No, because we weren't vaccinated, yet, yet, and
she has diabetes, she's older.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:53
Okay,
T
Tyra 04:53
um, my son and his fiance, they did get COVID. And we did lose his father-in-law to the
pandemic. Because their other household, their extended family, the whole house COVID
I
Isaac Tadé 05:11
Oh, I'm so sorry.
T
Tyra 05:12
So, yeah, that was hard, he spent 20 days ICU, nine of those days in a coma and he just
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 5 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
didn't recover. So, you know, being able to stay connected and physically around people.
That was quite difficult because I'm a hugger. Yeah, and I just like you know I hug people
think I stole a few hugs along the way but I came out unscathed. So probably.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:13
Yeah.
T
Tyra 05:17
You know, it's just not the same but it's not. So I've got about 10,000 hugs saved up.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:49
Oh, good. Um, okay, in what ways has the pandemic changed your outlook on life. Do you
see things differently now?
T
Tyra 06:01
Huh, for myself that suffers from mental health, injuries. What I like to call it, okay. When
you say mental health illness, just means you're sick. Sounds like let's be around sick
people or disease, but if you say, mental health injury. It's like recovery.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:31
I like that,
T
Tyra 06:32
And to tell someone who just be it stay in the house, and isolate yourself is totally different
than what my therapist would say or my doctor was saying you know see people be
around people. And I learned to find ways to deal with that isolation. Staying connected,
calling people getting outside.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:11
Did you pick up any new hobbies during the pandemic COVID? Any new pets?
Tyra 07:19
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 6 of 15
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T
Tyra 07:19
You know, actually no, I actually was able to pick up more work. I'm a volunteer. I'm
disabled, but I found more ways to get around that by zooming, you know, I've learned
how to zoom, and then I got more familiar with the computer and I'm not that computer
literate. Okay, so I learned some stuff good with my computer and yeah
I
Isaac Tadé 07:46
so exciting.
T
Tyra 07:47
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:48
I'm happy for you. Yeah. Okay, um, sounds like positive things, yes. In the summer of 2020,
the movement against systemic racism had Minneapolis, as its epicenter, with the murder
of George Floyd. Can you describe your experience living in Minneapolis/St. Paul, during
that time. So it's a heavy question.
T
Tyra 08:12
It is a heavy question because I was, I actually live an hour away from Minneapolis now
we're on a bus is maybe 15 minutes and, you know, I'm the, as soon as that happened, I
went straight to the site of Floyd's, George Floyd Square. And, did you feel,
I
Isaac Tadé 08:38
did you feel called to be there.
T
Tyra 08:40
Yes, because that corner. I was raised on that corner. 38th of Chicago is in Powderhorne
Park neighborhood
I
Isaac Tadé 08:49
Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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T
Tyra 08:50
I know the store owner. Cup foods personally.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:53
Wow.
T
Tyra 08:54
And I also had conversation with George Floyd when he was working as a provider of
security at Salvation Army.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:00
So you knew him.
T
Tyra 09:01
Yes, not personal personally but we've had,
I
Isaac Tadé 09:05
but you had spoken with him
T
Tyra 09:06
Yes, we had interaction. And I just felt drawn to, I had to go. It was just too much
connection. And it was the second night, or the first, the night after that happened, and it
rained all night I was there from about 6pm until four o'clock in the morning, I could not
leave the space, I just felt so like, do something, Minnesota. Do something. And, I came in
the house sopping wet literally left a pole in my front door, I had to drop everything right
there, and I lost my phone that night because you know what, so to replace a phone. So,
but there was a lot of beautiful people out there just supporting each other and it just kind
of just struck awe-struck just kind of like, like pinch me. Are we all we're not all dreaming
right right, You know this, this really happened. Yeah. The Donald Williams is a good friend
of mine as well.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:22
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Okay.
T
Tyra 10:23
And he, when I saw him on television. It was just like, how much more connection, can I
have to this to this situation that is affected so many of us, you know, it just was deep and
too. It was just like, everything was aligned, if you will, to shine a really big light on the
struggles of black and brown bodies
I
Isaac Tadé 11:02
Yes,
T
Tyra 11:03
and a system of racism, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:10
In the past year. Do you see the city healing? Do you see improvements being made
against racism? Do you see communities coming together? Do you see racial justice being
done since the murder of George Floyd?
T
Tyra 11:30
I see communities coming together but I do not see racial justice being done. I see. There's
a word for it - we've just used the other day, kind of tokenism. Like the same old bullcrap.
Over and over and over again, band aids, but not real, like the police reform at the
Capitol so watered down. You know, just give them this and they'll just go away, you know.
We know we only make up, you know what, what is it 20% of 13% of population in the
states like people. Yeah, African American, folks. We have the highest racial disparity
speaks volume on what is happening, and so I quickly had to remind myself, yes we need
reform and policing, but that's not our only problem, and I felt distracted by that with all
the other areas like education and health and housing and street voices really helped me
to stay grounded on, like, all of those other things too. Yes, we must do all of these things.
And it's nice to have that community to help you do that,
I
Isaac Tadé 12:52
yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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T
Tyra 12:53
because you can't do by yourself, you probably know that. And then when we got through
Street Voices of Change got together, we realized we couldn't do it by ourselves, we had
to collaborate with others. And so yes, I definitely see community coming together, seeing
more just out in the street stuff going on, you know, and then a lot of that has to do with a
pandemic because we could meet inside
I
Isaac Tadé 13:17
people are tired of being indoors
T
Tyra 13:19
Right! you know so it means that if we were you can only have so many people in a
certain setting. And it's just healthier because the pandemic like said, I want to be outside,
and which is good because it drives community, they'll be walking by, like, what's
happening over here you know. And so, I think, like I said, I believe there's so much more
work to do.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:49
Yeah.
T
Tyra 13:51
As we were saying earlier about the three Beasts, the, you know, the COVID, George Floyd
the unrest that met in the street, and it was just like all happening at the same time, is just
amazing to now see hope. You know about it.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:17
What, what brings you hope personally.
T
Tyra 14:20
What brings me hope personally is that there's more community of colors that are really
important tables are really important, like for us to be over at the Capitol now on a Shelter
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Task Force, yes, you know, it's a big deal. It's a big deal, lots and lots of lived experience.
What else brought me hope? That Department of Justice, actually is all over the country,
talking about police reform, but that they came to this city to like, Okay. Flipping desks
now. You know what, what, what are you doing, there's so many things about the police. I
didn't even know, like, like all the search and seizures they do, where they kill for people's
pockets and related to whatever crime they want to related it to. They don't have to be
accountable for that money and we're talking millions of dollars. No one audits them and
things like that accountability is happening and that gives me hope.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:24
Good. Yeah, and what I keep hearing is, you know, accountability is not the same thing as
justice. Right. Accountability is just holding someone to a certain standard. Mm hmm. And,
and justice is more about righting the wrongs that have been done historically. And so do
you see us moving towards justice, or we're still at the state of accountability.
T
Tyra 15:48
We're still in the state of accountability, yeah, Yeah, that that term for justice. I mean,
yeah, we got it for George, but the hunt, I mean Emmett Till is still looking for justice, and
the person, you know, and hundreds of others 100 that we haven't even named, you know,
and the ones we have. Oh my gosh, try remembering them all. You know, that never got a
court date, never got an investigation. So, yeah, and again justice all around housing
justice, education, justice, you know, equal opportunity and employment, things like that,
education, education, justice, yeah. So real thing. When I was growing up here, what they
taught us about... black folks was slavery that was kind of the end of it. Yeah, I heard
about Harriet Tubman Yeah I heard about Rosa Parks, but there were so many other
things. Yes, you know. And then I'm, just the way should I say, the literature that's used that
relative to my black body. You know, it's like, okay I went to the store bought four apples
and then I came back.. but when I grew up in a community of a food desert, there weren't
apples at that corner store. Until recently,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:17
where there might have been chips and candy bars yeah, yeah, this, um, you know. back,
back in the day when I was younger than the, the cold wet food stamps the papers
stamps. And then the EBT card came, and then all of a sudden, the conversation about
food deserts, they're like, Well, where are they spending their money? On the corner stores.
So now corner stores have to in order to be contracted to get use of EBT, or provide
healthier food so some things. Yes, but actually no folks need a grocery store, right. I mean
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 11 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
that's, yeah. Okay, we're almost there, you know, kind of dragging along.
T
Tyra 17:56
Exactly, exactly and the prices are high in those places anyway, so.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:01
Okay. Well, I'm glad that you have had, you know, hope in your community, hope, hope
and seeing representation, and hope in you know, some of these, the mandates being
lifted and allowing people to interact again like we used to just to be regular human
beings, yes, you know, and I'm glad those things are lifting you forward.
T
Tyra 18:25
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most things give me strength, like I said, meeting here in Central,
that gives me strength. Yes, I don't do nothing else in the week, this one day of the week
for me to come and do this is, it gives me strength for the next week
I
Isaac Tadé 18:43
that's incredible, get you through.
T
Tyra 18:44
Yeah. And so, and Street Voices, does that for each other. Time colleague and he's always
saying this is his place of peace, you know, just excited waiting on Thursday. That means a
lot.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:00
There's something special that's happening here. And I'm all about it. Okay, so the next
question is, is there anything else that you want people to know or remember let's say 30
years down the line, about your experience or from people's experiences, who may have
experienced homelessness during this period of time. What should people remember
about this period of time.
T
Tyra 19:22
In homelessness for myself, on and off homelessness for 20 years, with children without
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
children. I had things that were I was dealing with in life. I didn't get diagnosed for mental
health, injuries, until I was almost 40. When I learned it, I realized I was actually having
those experiences as far back as I can remember when I was eight. And I used to walk
around Powderhorne Park, all the time by myself, depressed, not knowing these that's
what,
I
Isaac Tadé 19:48
that's what it was, was he didn't have a name for it.
T
Tyra 20:21
Yeah. And then I got older, And then I got into alcoholism. And so, those struggles are still
real. Right. But when I went to treatment for those things and I came out of all that. I was
still homeless. And then I was looking for housing, when that I didn't have enough income I
was now considered disabled. And then when I got all these ducks in a row and I
went...after all was said and done I realize it's not all my fault. And so that's what I say to
our homeless community, that if you're having those struggles, you know once you get all
those things taken care of, they're still a system of oppression. And it's not only your fault
that will work against you. Mm hmm. Wow. And so, to just keep standing up for yourself
keep fighting, keep standing up for yourself. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:21
That just gave me goosebumps. Thank you for sharing. Yes, um, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, Is there something
that people hearing this can help with. What issue should people be focusing on?
T
Tyra 22:00
Affordable housing, deeply affordable housing. And my dollar is just as important as your
million dollars, and it should have value. I, I don't have low income I have low wealth, it
means something to me it may not mean much to you, but it still has power, and it should
be usable should be walking around with the dollar like it's a wet food stamp, because
what I want to buy constants are costs that my dollar has value to. And so deeply
affordable housing is really where it's at. It's where it all starts, well everybody started at
home, right, and they went out into the world and maybe they went to college, maybe
they went got a trade and then they got their own place for deep affordable housing is
where it all starts. Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 13 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 23:04
Thank you, that's very wise, very wise. Um, so, have you met the nurses at Central in your
five years here, have you met the nurses.
T
Tyra 23:14
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 23:16
Okay. And then the next question is there any feedback that you have for them, what is
working, What could we do better. Is there anything missing from the health common
center?
T
Tyra 23:31
I probably, you know I've been around nurse Katie for years now, and I didn't. I don't really
have anything, I feel like that's missing. At this point, um, all of the services that are
provided are, are really awesome services. And, and then even the Streetwork me and
nurse Katie have went to encampments together and or went to the same encampments
either route went separate at different times and so the services are there and the
outreaches there, you know, even outside the health commons, and I couldn't ask for
anything more to bless it, yes. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:28
Wow. Well thank you, if you let it if you do think of anything, you know, please let us know.
Okay, well, is there anything else that you would like to share with us today. Before we
finish.
T
Tyra 24:51
If the..I'll say this, okay. I found it quite interesting what I heard. If the opposites of pros is
cons. Wouldn't the opposite of progress be congress? Oh snaps Okay, keep finding. Okay,
push through.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:17
You heard it here folks, that is. Well thank you, I think that concludes our interview for
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
today. That's the Mic drop. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories
and insights. Thank you for having me.
T
Tyra 25:33
Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Ayann Hodleh 0:00
Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya
Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are
you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit abou... Show more
Ayann Hodleh 0:00
Hi, my name is Ayann Hodleh and Today is November 15 2018. I'm interviewing Fowsiya
Hassan for a project called Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University. Hi, Fowsiya. How are
you? I'm good, how are you? I'm pretty good. Um, so to begin, can you tell me a little bit about
yourself?
Fowsiya Hassan 0:25
Yes, my name is Fowsiya. I was born in the 80s. I was born to Mogadishu, Somalia. I have ten
siblings, two parents, mother and a father.
Ayann Hodleh 0:41
Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your time when you were living in Somalia, your
childhood?
Fowsiya Hassan 0:49
Well, I spent 15 years in Mogadishu before the war broke out. Things in Somalia aren't as easy
as things in the United States.
Ayann Hodleh 1:03
What do you mean by that?
Fowsiya Hassan 1:05
By that I mean most of our transportation was by foot. And most days, we take vehicles, and we
had to travel for long distances. I would use me going took Dugsi as an example, we'd walk at
least a mile there and a mile back. Almost every day. I spent almost five hours and sometimes
more at Dugsi. Dugsi is a Islamic Studies. When I wasn't spending my mornings or evenings at
Dugi, I was helping my Hooyo(Mom) and Abo(dad), at the fleet store they owned. It was a small
but very convenient for all my people. My Abo(dad), an older brothers, were hard workers. They
worked long, sleepless hours to make money. It's not like America. You know where You get a
paycheck either weekly, bi weekly, or salary.
My Abo and Hooyo worked hard so me and my sisters can have an education. I lived in a small
house with two bedrooms. It wasn't big, but it worked for us. We had a maid that lived with us,
and she took care of us when my Hooyo and Abo weren't around when they were working at the
fleet.
When I was around 11 a civil war broke out in Somalia. My parents store was destroyed, and
we had to flee the country. We fled there and we went to Kenya, where there were lots of
refugee camps. After staying there for almost four years, my parents made a hard choice. into
sending me, my brother and my sister to the states where they wanted us to have a better
education.
Ayann Hodleh 3:12
So, how did your parents send you guys here? Like, they stayed behind? Who did you guys
come here with?
Fowsiya Hassan 3:23
There were a group of Americans that worked at a church who were helping people at the
refugee camp get asylums.
They helped us come to America.
Ayann Hodleh 3:40
Before we get into your transportation of like how you got here, and your experience can tell me
a little bit about the refugee camp, how it was staying there, what kind of place you stayed in,
did you meet any people and then what was like the difference between back home in Somalia
Mogadishu and the refugee camps?
Fowsiya Hassan 4:05
We stayed in like, these tent kind of things. There were multiple scattered all over, like land. I
would say the difference is, you're in a tent full of almost 15 or 20 different people that you
probably don't know, that are all fleeing the same country. And it's not like my house that I grew
up in it was just me, my family members and our maid. It was a very crowded area where there
weren't many places to sleep. There weren't many beds that were offered so some of us had to
sleep on the ground at nights. There wasn't enough space for us to play like you would play in
our house. So we would always play outside in the open land. And just play like kickball or
somethin that was our version?
Ayann Hodleh 5:06
So, um, can you tell me a little bit about any relationships, friendships that you had either back
home and that you had to like, leave or that you made while you're at the refugee camps?
Fowsiya Hassan 5:23
Yeah, I met some friends that were in the refugee camp with me. Her name was Khadija. She
was around my age. She only had like a year and a half on me. I met a boy that I really liked.
But he couldn't come to America like me and my siblings, because they didn't allow him an
asylum. Which was really sad because only a few people would get selected from every kind of
refugee camp to get asylum.
Ayann Hodleh 6:03
That's pretty sad.
Can you tell me a little bit about when you were selected to come to America and how your
transportation here was and I know it's different back home than here. So like, your feelings how
you felt about it. I felt you mentioned how you left your mom and your dad.
Fowsiya Hassan 6:33
Some of my siblings. Wow, so hard. It was. When we were getting selected. I didn't really know
how the process was because my Hooyo(mom) and Abo(dad) dealt with that. All I know is when
my mother came to us and told us I assumed that my entire family was leaving America. But she
broke it down to me, my sister, and brother that it was only us three going there. We have
family in the United States. So that's where we were going to go. The transportation that day
when we were leaving was a very interesting one because of the fact that I've never been on a
plane. I didn't know how a plane operated. It was all something new to me and different. So it
was kind of very scary. Imagine being 15 and didn't know how that thing operated. How was it
even in the air? And it was just me, my sister, my brother. So we didn't have any older parents
with us or anybody older of age at the time.
Ayann Hodleh 7:58
Can you tell me bit of how when you flew here, I know like the malls and the food courts in the
airport were probably different. Can you tell me a little bit about that. Were you surprised?
Fowsiya Hassan 8:13
I was very surprsied due to the fact that me and my even my two older siblings were still under
age. So we had a flight attendant, who was kind to us throughout our entire flight. She was on
joint flights with us wherever we went. Obviously, the food was different. And we didn't really
touch anything. Because we didn't know what was halal and what wasn't, so it was kind of we
didn't really eat other than drink and maybe have like, chips. I think that's the first time we had
chips.
Ayann Hodleh 8:55
So when you came to America, where did you first come to and how did it feel adapting to
staying with somebody that was your family, but you don't really know them before. It was just
you and your siblings.
Fowsiya Hassan 9:12
Um, we went to Minnesota. And at the time, it was a very low population for Somali people but
my uncle was there with his wife and his two kids, and obviously not knowing them it was it was
kind of scary, but obviously their family so we got used to it. They became additional siblings,
because we stayed with them for about 10 years until my parents and rest of my siblings came.
Adapting to a climate especially like Minnesota, the first time I think I seen snow. I freaked out.
Because I've never been in such a place.
Ayann Hodleh 10:03
It's true. Even people that live in America that don't live in Minnesota are very surprised by our
weather. Um, can you tell me a little about when you came here you were 15, so that means
you went to high school here, correct?
Fowsiya Hassan 10:19
Yes I started a sophomore year, I think towards the middle ish. I really can't remember. But it
was sophomore year of high school. Um, it was a very different type of school. From when I was
around. We had like four class periods, and that was interesting. I was in ESL because I didn't
know much English. So up until I graduated here. People were very, they're kind of rude.
Ayann Hodleh 11:06
Would you say that the schooling is harder here or back home?
Fowsiya Hassan 11:13
I would say that schooling here is different and a little hard, but I was good at math and science.
English wasn't my subject.
Gym was my subject too I was very fast runner.
By the age of 17, I got my first job. It was the YWCA. It was the first time I've ever had to
balance school and work at the same time. I had to learn the hard way, how to kind of balance
those two because I wanted to help my uncle and aunt who are supporting me so that we can
help my family back home as well.
Ayann Hodleh 12:06
So I know for my family that we're always sending money back home. So is that basically the
same thing that you were doing? You would have to basically just work for everybody that was
back home you aren't really working for yourself. So how did that make you feel as a child?
Fowsiya Hassan 12:22
Yeah, especially at 17 I think I only kept like $30 to my name for most of my checks. We send
about 100 or more from my check, my siblings, aunts and uncles money. So we send money
back to support our loved ones back home.
Ayann Hodleh 12:46
Okay, can you tell me about how when your parents came here and how you also got into the
business that you have right now.
Fowsiya Hassan 12:59
Yeah.
I believe I was 21 when the rest of my family members and my parents came. It was a very it
was a very exciting time. But I mean it's also very sad because it was about six years that I
haven't seen my mom or dad, my brother and sisters. So it was a happy and sad day.
uhm so around when I was 25 years old
My older brother and sister who came to America with me, decided to open up a family daycare
that I worked at. I got into a very bad accident at the time and the settlement money that I got
from it. I decided to buy the family daycare because my older siblings are opening more
locations for themselves. I wanted to get into the business as well. The way my siblings got into
the business was that they didn't really finish high school. They were just very hard workers.
And they decided to open up a childcare center. And that's how I got into the business as well.
After I finished school, did some college, I decided to take over.
Ayann Hodleh 14:28
How was it being a business owner at the age of 25? Like what were some difficulties that you
faced? Did you get help from your family?
Fowsiya Hassan 14:40
Um, I would say there, there's a lot of difficulties that comes with being, you know, a business
owner at the time, especially 25. My brother and sister were very helpful. The hard thing I would
say would be, you know, since I'm a new business owner, having other parents trust me,
especially with not knowing me. Like they know my siblings. I'm earning their trust to come to
my child care center was difficult at the time
Ayann Hodleh 15:18
Is the reason why you did not finish college because that the child care center.
Fowsiya Hassan 15:25
Yes.
Ayann Hodleh 15:32
How did you feel about not finishing college because you were telling me how you like school
when you were back home and how your parents like worked really hard for you to get a good
education.
Fowsiya Hassan 15:45
I wasn't really upset about it. I mean I went there for two years. I just think that I had other
priorities. And I obviously had to grow up pretty fast. So at the time, it just wasn't something for
me.
Ayann Hodleh 16:00
Okay, um, can you tell me a little bit about your life now? I know now you're married and you
have kids.
Can you tell me a little bit about that and the childcare center?
Fowsiya Hassan 16:12
Yeah. So, um, I met my husband. right around the time that you know, I started becoming a
business owner. We got married after two years, aroundwhen I was 27 we got married and I
had my first child around 28.
it was very hard balancing, you know, a new marriage, a new child, and also a new business.
And it was just something all new to me. And obviously, I had an amazing, you know, family to
support me and help me with everything. So that made it pretty, pretty smooth. a funny story is
my husband was also working at my siblings childcare at the time in the office. So you could
already see how much of a taboo that was. Because we don't do dating within our culture. So,
we would always kind of try flirting here and there at the time, my parents, and my older brother,
weren't really fond of me wanting to get married to him to...to his tribe. Within our culture, you
know, tribes are really big thing. And that causes some people not to get married, because
they'll be like, "Oh, so and so is Dhulbahante(a tribe) or so and so is Majarteen(another tribe)" or
who we are and then like, they don't want a certain tribes mixing with other tribes, so they didn't
want me marry him because of his tribe. I had to really fight and defend for him so that I can
marry him.
Ayann Hodleh 18:10
Can you tell me a little bit more about why is this so important?
for a woman to marry within her tribe, I guess compared to a man?
Fowsiya Hassan 18:23
Well, for me being a woman, when you marry a man, you when you marry him, your children
will end up taking his tribe, rather than your tribe or, you know, yeah, like example would be
when you get married, you would take your husband's last name, and your children would take
his last name. We do do that with names and also tribes, your your tribe he's his tribe. And your
children will be his tribe. Make sense?
Ayann Hodleh 19:03
Yeah. So basically why it's more strict on women to marry a man from a good tribe is because
you're, it's going to go from generation to generation. It's going to be your kids, and then your
grandkids and so forth, so forth and so on.
Fowsiya Hassan 19:22
That's only of you are a male.
So if I have daughter they take my husbands tribe right, and whoever they marry their kids will
take the person they marry tribe. Whereas if I have a son my sons will carruy on my husbands
tribe legacy.
Ayann Hodleh 19:51
What do you think that? I know tribes was such a big deal back home. It's a lot of the reasons
why a lot of wars broke out, a lot of fighting happened. Do you think and I know it's pretty strong
within like my parents and your generation, do you think it's going to be like that in the future?
Fowsiya Hassan 20:16
From the looks of, you know, kids around your generation now, it's slightly might be, but I don't
think it would strongly be the way we were sort of are per se.
We were very strong on our ideals, and who we were going to get married to, but within your
generation, it doesn't, it doesn't look the same.
Ayann Hodleh 20:45
Okay, um,
can you tell me a little bit about your life now?
How many kids do you have?
Do you have other businesses and so forth.
Fowsiya Hassan 21:00
Yeah, I have three daughters, two are twins. And a daughter who's the oldest, two boys. One
being the youngest of the mom. And the other one being the second oldest. Um, so I have a
total of five children. And we live, we live in Minnesota to start out and we actually stayed semi
within a Minneapolis area. Um, I have two child cares now. They're pretty, pretty busy, keep me
busy. I'm always on my toes with them. Um, I've been in the childcare business for about 10-12
years now, I would say um, my recent one which I opened back in 2015 and then my first one
being I bought from my siblings.
So you got to experience the good parts of Somalia before the Civil War broke out. Do you plan
on living in Minnesota forever? Do you plan on taking your family back home? Have your kids
visit
My children are kind of my too young right now to remember and experience there. And I do
plan on taking them sometime in the near future. I do want them to know the roots that I came
from, where I was raised, where I spent, you know, most of up until my teenage years growing
up, I want them to also know refugee camp I spent most of my time. I just want them to, you
know, know where I came from as well. Cuz they were born in America, so they haven't
experienced, you know, the struggle that I had to go through and get here. And I really want
them to forever cherish that whenever they get the opportunity to remember when I tell them
Ayann Hodleh 23:18
So in the near future what do you plan on doing business wise? Are you planning on going back
to school? ,
Fowsiya Hassan 23:28
um, yeah, I currently went, I'm currently back in school. Um, I want to explore more into the
business world. I want to open up a mental health clinic for you know, our fellow people our
fellow Somalis. And because it's such a non spoken thing, within our culture, mental health and I
want to explore, you know, just kind of grow on that Um, I've been, you know, studying
psychology, doing some social work stuff. Just so you know, I could expand my horizons. And
yeah, I hope to, you know, open a clinic very soon. Hopefully, I would say in like the next maybe
two years, hopefully, um, I still want to continue managing, you know, the daycares, but maybe
have some help and more support so I can manage more than just the daycare and the mental
clinic as well.
Ayann Hodleh 24:40
I like how you touched on how mental healh, it isn't really talked about in our Somali community,
especially in Minnesota right now. There's a whole outbreak within our people that are
depressed, have anxiety, addictions, drinking, which is probably something you're really
surprised about, because I'm not really surprised about it because I just grew up around it. But
looking at it from like our parents point of view, my parents point of view, like your generation
point of view, it's probably crazy. A little bit about that.
Fowsiya Hassan 25:21
Um, yeah, I would say, exactly. That's, it's not a really spoken thing. Especially, you know, those
who have dealt with the war around my generation. Depression isn't talked about, especially, I
mean, imagine you are living a perfect life one minute, and a war happens the next and now
you're being told, you have to flee your home, flee the only place that you knew and you are not
voluntarily leaving. You're being forced to leave. It's very depressing. You know, I would say I
have some depression. And that's why I'm exploring this. It's not spoken about. So it's you
know, for your generation, as well, you know, the opioid addictions that I've been hearing about.
It's very eye opening sometimes that as an older generation, why are you not dealing with our
own problems? why are not dealing with our children's problems and helping them cope. And
we're not, you know, being open enough with them, understanding what's going on in their lives.
I mean, sure, they haven't, you know, lived like something that we had to deal with a civil war.
But I mean, Minneapolis is kind of very dangerous place. You know, you never know there's
people being killed. gun violence is spiking up in the city. And that's something I want to talk
about more. You know, with the whole opioid epidemic that's happening, you know, all these
children their problems are being spiked from somewhere. And I know that growing up, even
with, you know, with my parents, if something bothered me, it was really, we weren't supposed
to talk about it. We weren't taught to express our feelings and you know, just express what's
hurting us. What's making us sad, what's getting us upset, we're just more so taught like, you
know, hold on and hustle. You know, just like, get more in tune with your religion. And I mean,
don't get me wrong. Getting in tune with your religion is one thing, but it won't always solve
some things, especially when someone can't express how they feel, and talk to others. I just
want, you to know, to help children out there and adults as well to, you know, find a place that
they could express themselves and feel comfortable talking to somebody that's going to help
when they need it, you know, just a go to place where they know they are welcome. And they,
are not judged based on what they're going through, and not just told, you know, go read Quran,
it'll make it better. I mean, do it Yes, but everyone needs someone to talk to. And I want to be
able to be that person that anybody can kind of come in contact with. It could be the clinic, you
know. I want people to be able to say "oh, hey, I know a great clinic. Fowsiyas is a great,
amazing place. You should go there. She's got people that are there and They'll help you with
anything, they're open ears, they are anonymous, a mental zone." I just want to be able to be
there for everybody.
Ayann Hodleh 29:05
I really like what you're trying to do for the community, I definitely feel like we need a lot more of
that, especially in Minnesota, because of this whole epidemic that's going on. And this whole, all
these mental illnesses that people are, like kids my age, and even adults are coming out and
talking about because a lot of things within the small community is not talked about, they just
think oh let me just cover up this persons mistakes and shame, but that's definitely not working
out. And I think we're finally starting to understand and see that. So I really appreciate what
you're doing for the community. I really appreciate you doing this interview for me,
Is there anything that you want to add or, you know, that covered it?
Fowsiya Hassan 29:46
Ah, I think we covered it all. I really, you know, this was an amazing interview to you know,
getting to know me, What I plan on doing near future, what I've been through and I just
appreciate it.
Ayann Hodleh 30:08
Well thank you and good luck with everything that you're trying to do
Fowsiya Hassan 30:12
You as well.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ... Show more
Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ed
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Bashiru Kormah
Katie Clark 00:04
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University, and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional and higher ed. My
name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:26
My name BK Kormah, an alum of Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 00:31
Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you give consent to be
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:44
Yes, that's fine.
Katie Clark 00:46
So when did you graduate from Augsburg University?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
I graduated in 2019.
Katie Clark 00:53
Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently
studying in your graduate degree?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:01
I graduated from Osseo Senior High School. And then I went to Augsburg for my undergrad and
got my degree in International Relations and International Business. Graduated as the
university president in my junior year. So that was exciting. And then currently getting my
graduate degree in Sustainable International Development at Brandeis University in
Massachusetts.
Katie Clark 01:32
Wow. Great. So asking you to think back at your time at Augsburg were there concepts of the
citizen professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills that were discussed in
any of your classes or programs? And if so, which ones, if you remember?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:53
Yes. So I remember the LEAD Fellow Program. I'm also remember there were several
conversations I think with Dennis, I'm not sure of his name.
Katie Clark 02:06
Dennis Donovan.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:07
Yes. Regarding that citizen, professional, and also had leadership classes. I was also leadership
minor with Professor Elaine, and I'm forgetting the other professors name,
Katie Clark 02:22
Eschenbacher.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:24
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Katie Clark 02:34
Wonderful. So which of those experiences really stand out as being meaningful opportunities to
learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:49
Definitely the LEAD Fellows Program, because it was, it was very intentional with the trainings.
And then with every other all of the students have in your program. We had the same
conversation, and then we go out into the fields do our work together, discuss, learn more. So
that program specifically believe on did a good job of targeting that goal.
Katie Clark 03:14
Do you remember where your field placement was at?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:18
Yeah, gotta never forget, I'm still in contact with them, Banyan Community, that's where my,
my placement was, and I still have a very, very good and extensive relationship with those
folks. Even after I graduated from Augsburg, I was still there working with them, and they often
do recommendations for me. So yeah, it was Banyan Community.
Katie Clark 03:41
So did you feel like some of those LEAD Fellow experiences spoke to your coursework when you
were at Augsburg? Or did it feel somewhat disconnected?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:53
I think it is just the field of my studies. I was in international relations, international business,
and then being a leadership minor. So he just is really integrated really, really well. So I would
say a good connected. Excellent.
Katie Clark 04:09
So in what ways, if any, did the civic learning experiences while you were at Augsburg prepare
you for your professional role or your opportunities for civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
Yeah, like it prepared me really well, because right after that experience, I went directly into
the Peace Corps right after college. So I think I'll just paid attention and see, and this
conversation (about citizen professional) was just so deep in the guests because they were
coming. So I was like, you know, I think this would be great. So just really, you know, like, just
just concept I'm really wanting to learn more and dive more into it into really, really do similar
work.
Katie Clark 04:55
So do you feel like your experiences in the field were really what shaped your experiences
moving forward? Or would you say some of the presentations in by Dennis Donovan or Elaine
Eschenbacher, or that you mentioned? Did they really prepare you for post graduation life?
B
Bashiru Kormah 05:18
I would say it was called it was a collective experience I really helped shape my direction for,
you know, after graduation, you know, just being a part of the program. And then working with
other extremely gifted folks who are very passionate about doing work in the community. And
that's one conversation that we had with with Dennis, it's conversation, where we have some
high school students came into, and it was a very deep conversation. So this thing, just really
had me hungry, I guess, for more. And that's how I decided going to the Peace Corps today to
carry on similar work and be able to apply those leadership skills that I learned, you know, it
does, it does work, it's very awesome, you know, to be able to incorporate it into the work I had
to do. I felt very well equipped for the Peace Corps.
Katie Clark 06:16
Well, and so I'm, I'm just curious, given, you know, your extensive involvement in such
activities as the Peace Corps and being the president of the student body and all that. Were
you like that in high school as well? Are you just, is that just kind of how you, you know, you
always been or do you feel like Augsburg gave you different opportunities to develop those
skills in different ways?
B
Bashiru Kormah 06:46
Yeah, I think in high school, the only thing I did pretty much in high school was soccer, and the
Brooklyn Youth Council, like, which was a youth group that represented the youth within our
cities for living in Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So those are the two main activities I did.
And then, and then won the Act Six scholarship, and also, there was a lot that was similar to the
work, to see where you can do additional work as well. So coming to Augsburg really exploded
that, like I had an idea, but then just being a part of these programs, really, you know, exposed
it. Then working with Elaine, and I got nominated for the Newman Civic Fellow. So that really,
really, you know, that was a burst that I felt like I could soar.
Katie Clark 07:35
That's amazing. And I remember your name, I think you spoke at a an event.
B
Bashiru Kormah 07:39
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Katie Clark 07:42
Excellent. Well, have you been able to use your civic learning and community? Some of these
are a little bit redundant, but they're on purpose. So we're kind of asking the question in
different ways to maybe just kind of, for things a little more, but have you been able to use
your civic learning or community engagement experiences to affect decision making or be an
agent of change as a professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 08:03
Yes, so currently, I'm the youth director on the board for Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So
that work is, I'm able to take those experiences especially going to do some leadership, and
especially in the leadership course, courses, working with different folks. And then with the,
with the citizen professional, that was just so powerful for those conversation, even how nurses
you know, use their skills. It was it was deep. So like, for me, it just, it just kind of opened my
mind said that no matter what career I go into, have the opportunity to, you know, to be an
agent of change, regardless of if I'm in a position of power or not.
Katie Clark 08:57
Great. What connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and
civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 09:07
Oh, I see that as a deep one. So vocation, Augsburg, man, I just got me reminiscent of
freshman year. What's your vocation? What's your vocation? (laugh). So with that, I think just
the fact that my, my vocation has always been on doing development work, and it just fits in so
well with civic engagement. And just like this overall umbrella was citizen professional, so it's
like, so it all goes well together, you know, so I can see that. But even though my, my, my my
career path has shifted, because now you know, finance now - who would have thought? But
still, it's you know, I'm working from home too, you know, but I also help with this conflict
resolution, some of these things that we discuss, often, we always have been our work, you
know, there, there's always, you know, these things happen. But it's also awesome that these
skills, you know, to be incorporated into my, my professional life, and then knowing that this
also working on my vocation as well. Which is to do more development work internationally, or
wherever God leads me.
Katie Clark 10:34
I think I need to circle back in a few years and redo this to see where you're at. Do you see
yourself as a civic or citizen professional? If so, how do you describe that or explain it to others,
even if you don't use that specific term, like, do you see yourself as a citizen or citizen
professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 10:55
I see myself as a citizen professional. And that's something, is funny, because I was I was
ordained as pastor actually, honestly. And, and something I share with a folks, I was like, when
I, when I'm blessed, and I'm the General Overseer of my own church, I would create this, this
citizen professional culture, where you don't want to have to be within the church setting for
you to you know, be seen as doing God's work, you know, you can be you know, that citizen
professional mindset. And this to me, what it is, is you can be in any career field, but you can
still be an agent of change, and being a voice for the voiceless. And then incorporating that into
a church setting where you don't really have to be, you know, a pastor or deacon, you know,
you can just be whatever, you could be a doctor, and you will still be doing God's work by being
a citizen professional within your career, but being a good steward in your community and with
your client. So I don't have a specific as a definition of it, but I just have this idea in my head of
what it means to be a citizen professional, which is within your respective field, being an agent
of change, and still doing work that other other people are doing for your intention.
Katie Clark 12:25
That's great. Thank you. Um, so here's the question, and you can be completely honest. Is
there anything that you wish you learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't?
B
Bashiru Kormah 12:39
I wish like that, that term is something that always stuck with me. But I wish there was like this
class 101 on how to answer that question. "What is a citizen professional?" But the discussion I
think, is good. Like, I have this idea in my head like, this dream of, you know, having my own
church and using that model or the method, right, but I just don't know enough of it. You know,
so be like something I wish we really, we really dissected. So if you have any info, Katie, please
send it my way.
Katie Clark 13:14
The other, the last question really is, do you have anything that you want to share with us that I
haven't asked?
B
Bashiru Kormah 13:23
Yeah, I mean, like, that entire thing was great. To be honest. Like, the citizen professional, it
was like a movement, a huge movement. But maybe it was during my term, I feel like it didn't
have a lot of buzz. You know? So, um, something I wish is, it was it was very intentional, it was
integrated with all of the curriculum. Or that it was at least, even if it was just a required
course, or it was embedded in required courses. So the students know these terms, you know,
because, I mean, the work itself was just phenomenal.
Katie Clark 14:06
So being that you're at another graduate, you know, you're at another institution of higher ed,
do you see now being that you can compare the two any, any things that you wish Augsburg
would have done different, that you maybe have where you're at? Or do you see things that
you wish your new place had that Augsburg did, like, you know, now that you're kind of in an in
a new higher ed space?
B
Bashiru Kormah 14:33
Yeah, it's a little different because I'm a graduate student and I'm at home, so I'm not really
interacting with anyone. I just go to class and then I'm on my own, so that really skews my
perception on that particular question. But I can say that particular experience at Augsburg you
know, this one you know that my I always reminiscing on that experience which has shaped my
culture and my stature those settings. Because at Brandeis is you know, especially the program
I'm in it is mostly international students just all international students from all across the world.
So be those classes, it was mostly discussion, you know having this conversation. So when I
had the opportunity to share my answer, I'm not just thinking from this sole mindset, I'm
thinking as a citizen professional or as a global citizen. How am I gonna approach this question,
knowing that I have a bunch of diverse people with extremely diverse backgrounds. You know,
so it has impacted me a lot. It'll be nice to if this conversation was on a graduate level, to be
honest.
Katie Clark 16:03
Well, that concludes all the questions that I have for the interview. So this has been an amazing
opportunity to hear from your experiences, and I've learned a lot and I'm inspired truly so.
Yeah, so I'll end the recording now.
Show less
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, h... Show more
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, helped
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Emily Uecker
Katie Clark 00:02
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional on higher education.
My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg health comments. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
E
Emily Uecker 00:24
My name is Emily Uecker.
Katie Clark 00:28
Great. And can you also tell us? When did you or when did you graduate from Augsburg?
E
Emily Uecker 00:36
Oh, I graduated with my bachelor's in social work in 2015.
Katie Clark 00:42
And before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and
having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public.
E
Emily Uecker 00:52
Yes
Yes
Katie Clark 00:54
So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? And so you said you studied
social work at Augsburg. So where are you working now too? That would be great.
E
Emily Uecker 01:05
Sure. So I work as a special education social worker at Sojourner Truth Academy in North
Minneapolis. And then educational background, I did my bachelor's in Social Work at Augsburg,
Augsburg was my first choice for college, when I went. I grew up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota,
and knew I wanted some good engagement in the community and in an urban environment.
And so Augsburg was the top of my list. I then worked for a couple years after college and then
decided to go back for my masters but went down to Washington University in St. Louis, and
did my masters and social work there and missed the Twin Cities. So decided to move back.
Katie Clark 01:06
So thinking about your time at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional civic
engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed in your classes or programs that you were
involved with? And if so, do you remember which ones?
E
Emily Uecker 02:05
Yes, absolutely. I think all of those were discussed at some level of being a social work major of
civic leadership is a big part of that of how to engage in the community, but then also how to
engage at every level, I guess, I should say, in the community. So whether it's individuals,
groups, institutions, and then even politics and policy of that's all discussed in terms of being a
social worker, and how to create the best environment for people moving forward and stay true
to those values. I was also involved in the Bonner Leaders Program. And that was really
important for both civic engagement and civic leadership, because that was discussed very
often. And then interfaith scholars as well as that scholarship program. And we engaged in the
community through a spiritual lens, so talked about different spiritual traditions and how that
contributes to our understanding of what what civic engagement means.
Katie Clark 03:15
So you're naturally engaged person yourself? Great. So which experiences if any standout is
meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across both your coursework
and the community engaged learning?
E
Emily Uecker 03:34
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
tell people were some of the best things I did during college. Bonner gave me the chance, I
think it's called like the LEAD Fellows now or something, but they gave me the chance to have
internships in the community from basically the moment I stepped foot on campus. It was a
program I entered my freshman year, I had engaged with people working at other agencies.
And so it was not only being able to have that support of being placed right away at a
internship at a nonprofit, and getting work study money to do that. But then having the support
to come back to of working with people at the Sabo Center and having that supervision but
then also having monthly meetings where I talk to people who are doing internships at
nonprofits across the Twin Cities. And so that not only helped my perspective of seeing the
different ways, one can be involved in civic engagement. It wasn't all nonprofits, somewhere,
government some were other sectors but it was all related to the community and so hearing
the about different people's experiences, and then having that experience myself was so
important. And then also just that network to go into when I was looking for jobs is being able
to say, Oh, hey, I know I didn't work at the Wilder Foundation. But I know people who did and
can talk to them about the work that they do, or whether it be housing or food shelf programs,
or different things that you kind of need to do as a social worker of coordinating all those
services. Having those connections really helped me. And then interfaith scholars stuck out
more so for the how the spiritual component connected, and I think that was really important,
too. I think that was a good grounding in that work, of kind of bringing it back internally of
what's your motivation? Why do you want to do this for the world?
Katie Clark 06:01
Excellent. And this, you kind of already answered this. So if something else comes to mind, let
me know. But in what ways did civic learning experiences that Augsburg prepare you to be
more ready for professional roles or civic leadership?
E
Emily Uecker 06:17
Sure. So again, like I talked about, seeing the different sectors was really important. I think
Augsburg also provided the groundwork with different student groups to be engaged. So I was
involved some with Students for Racial Justice, I was also really encouraged politically at
Augsburg, like a lot of college campuses. I think that's when people are starting to get involved
in politics, and was excited about that. So I ended up working for the DFL for a semester of
getting students. We were trying to increase voter turnout for the 2014 midterms, was the
main purpose and so engaging, really literally, democracy that way. And I bring that up,
because as someone that, I think, part of the time during college, I was like, Yeah, I want to do
like these big policy things. I'm going to be an organizer, I'm going to do this and then having
an organizing job and was just like, No, no, I don't. So being able to have that space, Augsburg
to kinda like try and experiment was really good. So then when I did go into the workforce, I
knew some of what, okay, this is what I'm looking for. And this is what I'm not. And that
obviously takes time, but to figure out in a more concrete way, but having the space to do that.
Katie Clark 07:53
So what is your job look like? Now, now that you're, you know, a social worker, and you sit in
the school, right?
E
Emily Uecker 08:01
So my title is a special education social worker, I'm at a pre-K through eight charter school. And
I have a caseload of mostly third through eighth graders. They are all students who have
individual education plans, so qualify for special education. I run individual and group behavior
and social skills classes. And at a lot of schools, they'll have special education, teachers running
social skills and behavior skills more. And part of the reason that the school has a social worker
doing it is a lot of students who get diagnosed with emotional behavioral disorder, a lot of that's
the source of trauma. And so having someone that has that social work background, to be able
to work with them and recognize that trauma, so I do that individual work. I also do a lot of
communicating with parents and referring them to additional mental health supports, outside
of school, always talking to teachers. So it's everything from doing schedules and behavior
trackers for kids with helping them to stay on track to talking about things going on in life to
having a third grade girls group where we talk about mean girls and all the things that come
with that.
Katie Clark 09:29
So do you feel like some of the experiences you had had you had at Augsburg prepared you for
the role you're in now or does it seem kind of disconnected?
E
Emily Uecker 09:40
I think it definitely connects. I think that having the social work experience was really important
of that bachelor's of Social Work. Especially being someone who did both a bachelor's and a
master's of a lot of people do their masters in social work without having a bachelor's when it
first if they do psychology or something else, but having that bachelor's really helped me to see
different sides of social work. And so right now I kind of walk the line but between clinical and
generalist. I've done a plan to do clinical track, or get that full licensure. And really, it's my time
at Augsburg that's helped me sort of stay grounded and figure out how to set those boundaries
and how to figure that out because it let me look at everything that social workers do. And had
I just gone for my master's, it would have been specialized right away. So that was really
important in my education, but then also having that on the ground experience of just being
able to say, going in that I've worked in youth spaces for almost a decade now is huge. And like
there's a lot that I've learned on the ground, like anybody who works with kids or works with
people will tell you if it just takes time to find your rhythm and different things. And so it was
really important that I had those experiences in college as well.
Katie Clark 11:24
Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect
decision making or be an agent of change as a professional and if so how?
E
Emily Uecker 11:37
So one way is just within my school of being able to advocate for students, I've been here for
school wide policies that are really important, or set up my own structure, if there's a lack of
structure. Because we're a small independent school, sometimes there's not the same level of
across the board procedures that there would be in a large district. So being able to do that,
and set that is a big way that I affect change within my workplace. I think, also, I'm part of the
Minnesota school social workers association, and we just had our Day on the Hill recently. So I
actually had the opportunity to talk to Melissa Hortman, she's a representative, and she's
currently the Speaker of the House for the state of Minnesota, about increasing funding for
school support professionals within schools.
Katie Clark 12:52
So this is kind of a dense question, but what connections if any, do you see among your
professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Very Augsburg type question, right?
professional identity, vocation and civic leadership. Let me think. And it's okay if you don't see
a connection.
E
Emily Uecker 13:23
So I definitely see a connection between the three. I feel like social work is something I'm good
at and youth work in general, there's something I'm good at. And something that has that both
like enjoyment and skill, alignment or spiritual and skill alignment that comes with vocation. I
think that so my job is something that's within my vocation, and then I do have civic
engagement and civic leadership within that. I think one thing I will say about vocation that I've
come to see since my time at Augsburg, I think I got very wrapped up in this idea of your job is
who you are. And so that's something I'm working on personally right now of trying to move
away from that, some. Because I think that leads to burnout, to a big extent of I am more than
just my job title. And figuring out what that means in my spiritual, social, personal life is
important to me as well as I think that vocation can be a wonderful thing. I think that having a
job that has a component of civic engagement is wonderful, and something that my heart is
definitely in. And I also understand that it's a privilege. I was in a situation that I didn't have to
chase, what was going to make me a certain amount of money or certain amount of financial
security, and had a little more flexibility with that, even though obviously, bills are still a thing,
and money is important. I don't have to take care of my parents, like, some of my classmates
did, or I don't have children on my own, like some of my classmates did. And so I see it as a
huge privilege to be able to be in a space where I'm doing something that feels like I'm part of
a community, and it's very much aligned with my heart and for people.
Katie Clark 15:55
Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if you only use that specific term?
And if you do, how would you describe that or explain that to others?
E
Emily Uecker 16:09
Sure, so I think that the field of social work really does this well. It's this idea that policy affects
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
engaged, politically is important to me, not only for, for my job, but outside of it as well. I see
myself as a citizen professional, because I choose to since I work in Minneapolis, I also choose
to live in Minneapolis. And that's where I vote. I make sure that who I'm paying attention to and
talking to, when I talk to representatives as well, or when I pay attention to local elections, like
city council elections, if I was paying attention to my home ward, and I was paying to the
attention to the ward, where I work. It was important to me to see how that would affect the
people that I work with. And then I also think of it as in some ways, a form of self care is being
involved in those policy things. I see kids every day, that don't have a lot of agency and some
of the things they've been through. And their families don't even have a lot of agency and
some of the things they've had to go through if it's affected by bigger forces, like policy. And so
for my own view, on my profession, it's important for me to know those policies and be
engaged with them, because I can't change it in a second. Like, I want to.
Katie Clark 18:16
Yeah, I think one thing that I'm kind of finding through this process is I think a lot of people and
you just described it greatly, but a lot of people are really being civic or citizen professionals,
but maybe the words don't resonate with people as as, as the actual terms, right, so you think
of any other terminology that could really fit around this that you've heard that would work to
to really describe a citizen, professional or civic engagement? Or do you think that sticking with
these terms, moving forward is fine?
E
Emily Uecker 18:54
I can see people getting hung up on the word citizen. I don't know. It's hard to like, condense it
to a term. So I think there's some and I'm sure that's what you've struggled with, of like, I think
there's something to be said for asking about, like, how people are involved with policy, in
terms of their profession, or maybe even just like, Are you a politically engaged professional,
because I think there's a lot of discourse around that to have like, that's expanded a lot in a lot
of spaces. Of like, the politics is personal and I don't know.
Katie Clark 20:05
Is there anything you wish you would have learned at your time at Augsburg that you didn't
learn? or is there other opportunities or experiences you wish you had to prepare you for your
current career?
E
Emily Uecker 20:19
I think that vocation piece can be tricky. I think how it was taught at the time that I was at
Augsburg, which, again, was now several years ago, so might be different now. But at the time,
it was very much that push for vocation seemed like your identity was wrapped up in it. And so
I think ways to find your identity outside of that, and exploring spirituality, and whatever else
outside of that is important too. Your work in the world doesn't have to be the work you're paid
to do.
Katie Clark 21:03
Very good. Is there anything else you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
E
Emily Uecker 21:11
Um, I guess one thing I'll say so I mentioned I went to Washington University for grad school,
which is like this, you know, top 20 for undergrad, big social work program, and I missed
Augsburg so much when I was there. It was tough to be at a social work program at a school
that wasn't liked by the community. They were seen as, and rightfully so, as just like a big
resource up and sort of elitist entity there. I missed Augsburg, even though they get it wrong,
sometimes even though there is like, the time it's taken for Augsburg to shift to be more
civically engaged, I think that it really does try its hardest to live up to its mission and its
values. And I missed that and appreciate that.
Katie Clark 22:17
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time for this interview. That concludes our interview.
So I just want to say thanks again.
Show less
Oral History with Noah Greenfield (2022)
Tue, 5/10 2:46PM
23:43
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic, professional, workplace, citizen, learned, guess, leadership, student, classes,
internships, civic leadership, disconnected, vocation, civic duty, studied, interviewed, thinking, hel... Show more
Oral History with Noah Greenfield (2022)
Tue, 5/10 2:46PM
23:43
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic, professional, workplace, citizen, learned, guess, leadership, student, classes,
internships, civic leadership, disconnected, vocation, civic duty, studied, interviewed, thinking, helped
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Noah Greenfield
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and
the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the civic professional in higher ed. My name
is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and executive director of the Augsburg
Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
N
Noah Greenfield 00:23
All right. Hi, I am Noah Greenfield.
Katie Clark 00:27
Great. So and before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which we which will be
made available to the public.
N
Noah Greenfield 00:40
I consent to be to being recorded. Yes.
Katie Clark 00:44
Wonderful. So when did you or when will you graduate from Augsburg?
N
Noah Greenfield 00:51
I graduated from Augsburg in December of 2019.
I graduated from Augsburg in December of 2019.
Katie Clark 00:56
know can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied while
you were at Augsburg?
N
Noah Greenfield 01:05
Yes, I studied a couple different things while at Augsburg. I majored in public policy. So I took a
lot of political science classes and some sociology classes. And then I minored in, it was a really
cool thing, the leadership studies minor, which was brand new the first year I ever got there.
And so I was kind of a guinea pig for the program. And so we had specifically leadership
courses, and then some electives for the course that were communication classes, getting
sociology classes, things like that. Yeah, that's kind of what I started to Augsburg, formally, and
then informally through student groups and programs, lots of lots of other things as well, like
government and citizenship and civic duty stuff like that. Yeah.
Katie Clark 02:01
Great. So thinking back at your time at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional
civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills discussed in your classes or programs you're
involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember,
N
Noah Greenfield 02:19
I would say, I studied political science and really, really did not talk about civic life very much
and civic duty, civic engagement. Pretty much at all. I know my leadership studies class did,
just from what we studied, was the social change model of leadership. So in that, under that
was, you know, civil discourse we talked about in their citizenship was one of the main courses
on how to be a citizen in society. So that would be my leadership studies courses, probably the
only ones that talked about that.
Katie Clark 03:01
Were you in any internships or student groups outside of your courses or classes?
N
Noah Greenfield 03:10
Yes, yeah, I did a lot of internships. I interned with CTUL (Centro de Trabajadores Unidos En La
Lucha), which is a center for workers united struggle, worked there for about two years with
their developmental director, like writing grants and fundraising, programming and stuff like
that. And then I worked for the Humanist Society. I work for a couple of doctorate students
working on, like meaning how people find meaning in life, who are not religious. That was like,
super cool. And then I did a HECUA (Higher Education Consortium for Urban Affairs) internship
with the Homeless Coalition, I kind of worked with the policy director there and doing research
for her trying to figure out data about kids who are homeless on the streets, stuff like that. And
then a couple groups, student government, I was highly active in for about three years. That
was wonderful. I like that a lot. And then, just a couple of like, the Cedar Commons, I guess, at
Augsburg University had stuff every week or you could just kind of go to and talk with people
about certain topics religion, communication, things like that civic duty, civic life, though, kind
of spoke to you every week as well. But yeah, it was very busy, busy at Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 04:44
So what are you doing now?
N
Noah Greenfield 04:50
Right now I work at a smaller nonprofit called the alternatives for people with autism. We take
care of adults who have severe autism. As well as some form of like, of mental retardation. And
I'm like the, like the apartment manager over there. So I just oversee around like six or seven
employees and we take care of four people. So yeah, that's what I do now.
Katie Clark 05:20
Okay, which experiences if any standout as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? This is back to your
Augsburg time, describe those experiences. And it's okay if they were disconnected, because
some students they were so that's totally fine. We're looking to find those holes if there are
some.
N
Noah Greenfield 05:51
At Augsburg, I would say that they were fairly disconnected. I think on student government,
they were fairly connected. Just with the small group of people that we had in student
government that were passionate about it. I would say that there was there was some
collections with that as well, just with people being like, elected representatives on the student
body and acting out being an elected representative of somebody while in their daily life at
Augsburg, so they weren't to disconnect in a way, they were, you know, talking as if trying to
solve problems while on campus as to their friends to their classes. And in that, it wasn't always
connected to There's certain times where they feel more connected than others, when people
are more motivated. Like it's passionate. I guess the other time where it's been connected is
through LEAD fellows. It's something that some Sabo does. That's how I have so many
internships is because of lead fellows and Elaine and what they did over there, but the kind of
group work that we did, and what we talked about when we would meet up as a group. They
felt very connected. I think Elaine was very, I guess, intentional about that, I think the things we
talked about, really got us thinking about how to how to have like live life, more civically, I
guess, and more responsible and voting and like knowing what's going on and knowing about
knowing that the ideas and the ideologies I guess, of the people you were with, and and talking
about them.
Katie Clark 07:56
So in what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg preparing you to be more
ready for your professional role? or civic leadership after you graduated?
N
Noah Greenfield 08:10
Yeah. I think a lot I think, especially in the workplace, I think it's helped me a bunch. With, with
coworkers, I guess. And and again, bosses too. I think that's where it's helped me the most. I
guess with like, how to navigate a conversation that might be uncomfortable, I think is like, the
biggest thing that it's kind of taught me is when things become more like petty is what I mean
by difficult conversation. The civic teachings kind of like helping you see the bigger picture, I
guess, of like, why you're there and what you're doing. So it kind of helps navigate those
conversations and not get caught up with you know, like, things that might not mean a whole
lot of in the bigger picture, but can feel very important. Like, right there. Yeah, helping navigate
conversations with coworkers is probably like, the biggest thing and then helped make, I guess
decisions for the people that work for me and in a more balanced way where I can. So it's not
just about the work it's also about them as people to like how how do they feel showing up
every day is something that needs to be taken an accounting for when you're making decisions
for everybody is their hours. You know, if they're there, back to back too much or they're not
getting enough time at home or away, or they're working too many afternoons so that they're
not getting to see people during the day, stuff like that, where it's like, what helps people be
like a person in society is like, yeah, I guess that just kind of helps make make decisions, I
guess. Well, at work. So.
Katie Clark 10:20
Would you say that your time at Augsburg has helped you engage more in your larger
community outside of the workplace? Or were you just kind of born that way? Because it
sounds like you're kind of an engaged person to begin with.
N
Noah Greenfield 10:37
So I am an engaged person to begin with, but I'm going from like the country. So it would be
pretty hard if I didn't have Augsburg to show me show me how, I guess to like, point my
compass, because I think I would just sort of gone off in that, like, you've done other stuff, for
sure. But in terms of like, engaging in like, a civic way, Augsburg definitely kind of like taught
me like, I guess, some like ground rules and some basic, you know, formulations and how to do
that. So yeah, I would say definitely. Yeah.
Katie Clark 11:13
Katie Clark 11:13
And this question is a little bit redundant. But we're kind of doing that just to see if it spurs any
other ideas, but have you? And you've heard answered it already. But have you been able to
use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect decision making? Or be
an agent of change as a professional? If so, how?
N
Noah Greenfield 11:32
Oh, my Yes. Oh, my gosh, yeah, that's, that's like, that's number one. I guess what I've taken
away is, like, with my degree in public policy was "slash" change. So change is something that's
like, extremely important me like positive change. So it's like, that's right now I'm actually at
my job, I'm using my leadership studies degree, the social change model of leadership with my
apartment, and the people who I work with and work with me, and we're trying to like work
through that book, to kind of our overarching goals is to effectively communicate with each
other and to be a team. So we don't really feel like a team right now. And so that's my positive
change that I want to make. And then we're, like, all just talking about these aspects of like
individual values and group values. And, you know, like, what do we need from each other? And
so, and I would have no idea how to do any of them. It wasn't for what I learned at Augsburg,
for sure. So it's really nice to have.
Katie Clark 12:36
Well, this one is a little dense, people get tripped up on this next one? So what, if any, do you
see among your professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? So do you see any
connections between those? If you don't, that's okay. So professional identity, vocation and
civic leadership?
N
Noah Greenfield 13:05
Yeah, that's a really good question. That's like a write down question. But I will definitely try to
answer that the best. So professional identity. I guess what I'm when I hear when I think when I
hear that is how other people and how you see yourself in a professional workplace, how you
like, your vision of yourself or other people see, vocation is what like, gets me going, what
motivates me and what's my calling? And like, why do I do what I do? And then last one was in
my that my civic duty, you said?
Katie Clark 13:41
Your civic leadership,
N
Noah Greenfield 13:43
Civic leadership, okay. And I know that connection between those I would say there's, there's a
connection between those for me, I think there has to be a connection, or I will look for
someplace else, or I will go someplace else, I think those three have to have, there's has to be
some type of connection I can make in my head between those to really my all in a workplace
and I would say civic leadership, like I that's what I've been working on the most. The other two
vocation wise, I love caring for people. So it's like no matter what aspect I can do that with,
that's it. That's it with my position and in the first one. Just to be a leader at work and to be,
you know, conscious and communicate with people, I think is really what I do at work and how
people see me and what I want people to see me as someone they can come to and solve
problems and talk to you and then civic leadership is just living those, living those out together.
And I think some days is harder and I would say I would be lying if I said every day they feel
connected. I think you have to work to, to connect those. I would say, when I'm on when I'm
feeling good, and I have had a good day and is rest and wake up feeling ready and motivated
those, there's those three have to be connected for me and are connected.
Katie Clark 15:22
Yeah. When I would think to you know, given if you're living your vocational dream, and you're
putting all your passion into your, you know, chosen profession, you it's easy to burn out.
N
Noah Greenfield 15:35
Oh, yeah, yes. Yeah.
Katie Clark 15:38
So every day is a different day. Yeah. So
N
Noah Greenfield 15:40
Yeah. New struggle, new fight.
Katie Clark 15:46
So, do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if that specific term doesn't
resonate with you? And if so, could you describe it or explain i
N
Noah Greenfield 16:03
Hmm. Um, I think so. It's hard, just from, it feels like, I work in Brooklyn Park, and I live in
Minneapolis. And those kind of feel a little disconnected when I think of citizen I think of the
work I'm doing for that to be the work where I'm living as well. So that feels like they have to be
connected. But I think in my mind, they kind of go to that. I think in Minneapolis, it's harder to
be a citizen, than I think anywhere else in Minnesota, it feels like just with how big it is, and
how many different ideas and people there are, or it's, it's almost to be a citizen is to step on
people's toes a little bit, which like, it's fine, I think. But I think it's becoming harder to step on
people's toes, I guess, challenge ideas and communicate with them very clearly about those
ideas. Like that's getting a little harder. Because it's just so big, where, whereas when I'm at
work, it feels smaller, and it feels much more attainable, and easier to be a citizen and act of
take an active role in the community there. than it is here. But I guess that's yeah.
Katie Clark 17:43
In your opinion on this too, because I feel like you're so I've think I've done like six of these
now. And I feel like sometimes the word civic, professional or citizen professional, like doesn't
resonate with students or alone? Like, is there terminology to get at what we're getting at? You
know, and if, if it doesn't resonate with you, I'd be interested. And if it doesn't, I'd be interested
to to see if you thought of any other way to describe what we're describing something else?
N
Noah Greenfield 18:20
What, what is the definition of civic professional?
Katie Clark 18:25
Yeah, so civic, professional, or citizen professional would kind of be like, so for example, as a
nurse, so it'd be not just like working within my institution, but really seeing myself as being
engaged in the community, thinking about social justice, co creating different things with
people like kind of leveling or de emphasizing that power. So really trying to be Hey, we're,
we're all part of this country. And so what is our duty to make sure that we're involved and
shape decisions in our governments because technically, in a perfect democratic society, that's
what it would be. But I believe we've kind of fallen away from that. And professionals kind of
are in this ivory tower. So how do we get away from that? You know, yeah, yeah.
N
Noah Greenfield 19:15
I think I don't think there is a better word for that. I think people feel disconnected of that from
that or people like if you're interviewing people from like, if my age or younger me or similar to
my age. I just think people that have no concept of that. I think there's people just don't
understand what that would even mean what that would look like. I mean, he's looking like any
like television shows or anything or you don't see anything like that if people in the workplace
it's very you know, you're you're an individual and your workplace you're there to get money.
You're there to do a certain whatever motivates you to get there and then you're gonna go
home. And I've found that with people that work for me too, is There that's I'm trying to kind of
suss out is like, what's the bigger thing for why you're here? So I think people are confused and
feel disconnect from it. Because there's, there's, there's there's probably no word for or phrase
for it for people. So I think it's a good phrase. I like the phrase. But yeah, I think that would
probably be why it's just people don't have a concept of it. There's no set of places like like
CTUL or, or people or workplaces that are specifically honed in on that aspect of it and make a
big part of their mission to do that.
Katie Clark 20:41
Katie Clark 20:41
So, is there anything you wish you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you
didn't?
N
Noah Greenfield 20:53
That's a good a question I wish I had learned.
Katie Clark 20:59
Or maybe it's there are other opportunities or experience you wish that you would have had to
prepare you for your future career? It could be either or?
N
Noah Greenfield 21:08
That's a good one. I don't think I came away from my experience thinking that I think in looking
back, it's hard as I learned so many different things where it's like, what else could I have
learned? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there was I'm sure if I'm sure there's something
because there always is. But right. Just right now, I think I learned so many different things with
with the liberal arts education, having so many different areas of learning and my minors and
majors allowed for so many different areas of learning that I felt like they had so much I think, if
I could have learned one thing more I would have liked learn the arguments of conservatives
more and thought about them deeper, so I could more easily refuted them. I think. I think that's
one thing that I would have loved. I think the only one class we really got there was like an
argumentation class, where we actually really learned about opposing perspectives, like
deeply. I think that that's probably the one thing I would learn coming back.
Katie Clark 22:21
Well, so is there anything that you'd like to add that I didn't ask you about at all?
N
Noah Greenfield 22:30
Um, like add to like, add to the this recording?
Katie Clark 22:35
Yes. Is there Yeah, that you want to share that I didn't ask you about?
N
Noah Greenfield 22:39
I don't know. I think Augsburg is doing a pretty good job. But I think I'm kind of a special case of
our experience, just with, with the type of learning that I did get in to being the guinea pig for
that leadership program. I think the leadership program was probably a very good start on this
that leadership program. I think the leadership program was probably a very good start on this
what you guys doing now? And like, what we're trying to do in the workplace, and yeah, I don't
know. I think it's I think it's cool. I think there has to be some sort of like, bigger thing people
need to go to in need to think of in their minds when they go to work or when they are walking
around every day. I think we're definitely losing touch with that right now.
Katie Clark 23:34
Well, thank you so much. This has been so insightful. So that concludes our interview. So I'll
stop the recording. I appreciate your time.
Show less
Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg?
Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg.
What do you want to do is biology?
Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school.
But I'm ... Show more
Nice. Okay, so just to start, could you say your name? Your major and your year at Augsburg?
Yeah. My name's Abdikhaliq Sahal. I'm a biology major, a junior, at Augsburg.
What do you want to do is biology?
Yeah, my plan right now is to go into dentistry want to go to dental school.
But I'm also really interested in public health. And I know, schools nearby have like a dental
masters in public health degree on so that's something that interests me, but you know, just
something I can get back to the community would be nice.
Yeah. And have you like, Look, dug deep into masters programs or anything like that?
What do you mean by that?
I mean, have you started looking at schools?
Yeah, um, you know, there are some schools like everybody looks at you know, out west
because of the weather but yeah, I think I wanted to stay, you know, closer to home probably,
either. You know, I think Augsburg… Augsburg doesn’t have dental school or MPH. I wish they
did, because I love Augsburg, but um, you know the University of Minnesota has that dual
degree program and a Master's in Public Health schools and I kinda just want to be closer to my
family and be here by you know, being away from me for two years would not be too bad.
Right, right.
Somewhere with one another.
Yeah, exactly. I'm looking at. I mean, I've thinking about grad school, but I haven't looked too
far into it.
Yeah.
I totally get that too. I have a pretty big family too. And so that's always important to me. And I
think Sarah told me that you also have a big family?
Yeah, I'm the oldest of eight kids and my family. Yeah, it's uh, I think I had to develop into this,
like more of a parental role sometimes too, because I feel like I'm obligated to my siblings like
to you know, provide like a good path. Because I feel like I was kind of you know, the firstborns
are really kind of a test dummies in this world to say, parents are kind of trying new things out
on us kind of experiencing the first time. So I think it's my responsibility to let them know
what's right from wrong and a sense and how to go about things since I already went through
it. You know, so.
Yeah, totally get that because I'm the oldest of eight as well.
No way.
Yeah, I know. Yeah. How young is your youngest sibling?
My youngest sibling is about a year. A year and almost two months. He's a baby.
How many like brothers and sisters is it?
I've got three brothers and four sisters.
Nice.
Yes.
I have two brothers and five sisters.
Wow.
Yeah. Lots of girls in my household.
Yeah.
Yeah. It’s fun, though!
How old is the youngest for you?
Um, she's two and a half right now. Yeah. So she was born my senior year of high school when I
was going into college. So that's kind of what made my college decision to staying close to
home. So I was able to be close to her. Yeah.
Have you always lived over there in Edina?
I don’t live in Edina, I live in southwest Minneapolis.
Yeah. Okay. Yeah, you're right.
I live in Southwest Minneapolis. I went to Edina high school, but I grew up in that area for a
while. I think I've been there for about 12 years. Yeah, it's it's been a while. It's like it's been a
good experience living in my neighborhood. I live in to the Linden Hills neighborhood. It's one of
the best neighborhoods I think, in the in the country, if I could say that. It’s really nice and we
have such a nice community there. Everybody really cares for each other. Um, um, but I’ve
been, before that I used to live in St. Paul, in the McKnight neighborhood and um, it was nice as
well, you know, lot more diverse than my neighborhood now. But the it was not as, like, you
know safe so my parents wanted somewhere with that was more safe for children, our growing
family, so it was a good choice to come to this neighborhood. And you know, before that I was,
um, I lived, I came to United States in 2000 I think 2001 or 2002 sometime, in 2000, 2001, 2002.
Sometime in that time period and I, uh, came from Kenya. I was born in Kenya. My family my
family's Somali but we're we went to Kenya then at some point in my history and then we
stayed in Kenya in a little place called Garissa for a little bit. My dad’s side at least, my mom’s
side’s from a place called Wajir. It’s in northern Kenya. And then we decided to pack up and
move to the United States and just you know, in hopes for a better life and you know, I think
we're achieving what my parents hoped for so I'm happy for that.
Good. What do your, what do your parents do?
My, uh, my Mom, works for the county. She works for Hennepin County. I think she's in human
services. Um, I say I think because I don’t know, my mom really doesn’t talking about her job
and she just kind of grinds and my mom’s a very hard working woman. Um, and, uh, my dad
works in Kenya. Um, yeah, yeah.
Do you ever go back to Kenya at all?
Well, I've been there. I went there during the summer going into eighth grade. Um, and it was
really interesting I thought it is really, uh real culture shock because, it shouldn't have been
because I was born there and I used to speak, you know, Somali and Swahili. Um, but I just
think I got immersed in the American culture and I wasn't really like, I really didn't know about
life back then. And, um, it was really, I think inspired me to be you know, that person in my
family, because right now I'm the first person ever in my family like not just my immediate
family, like extended family, like in my lineage to ever go to college. So that's important. I
thought since I had this opportunity, I would like to, you know, do something give back to my
family in Kenya who don't have the same opportunities. So I'd like to, you know, somehow, you
know, give back because I know, when I was younger, a lot of my aunts and uncles were taking
care of me, so I will actually repay them for that. So that's my goal, as well as I've also
developed, like, a responsibility for to take not take care of but you know, to give back to my
own community here, because a lot of people here have also helped me become the man I am
today. And, um, we have a lot of potential, like for change in this community. So I'm excited for
the years to come.
Um, how has your like experience at Augsburg been in terms of, I guess everything but like
being first generation college student, being in Minneapolis.
Yeah, I think my, if I could label maybe a word that would define my, like, you know, career my
time at Augsburg would probably be growth and I know that's just growth is something that's
synonymous with a lot of people's college experience. But coming into college, I was very, um, I
don't know how to even say it. I was very, like, closed minded, and in a sense that, of course,
I'm coming from high school and not a lot of high schoolers, you know, have like a big view of
the world and they don't really know what's happening. And I just thought that my little bubble
of Edina high school is all that there was in a sense, but at the same time, even then, I knew
that I was different. Because a lot of first physically in my skin color is a lot different from
people at my school, and that I knew I was different than again, I wasn't just that I was also
Muslim. So being black and Muslim was different and I knew I couldn't do things that my you
know my counterparts were doing, people who were my age are doing or you know behaving,
whatever, because I knew I had some other obligation that but I think when I got to Augsburg is
when I really found myself immersed in first so my Somali heritage and be able to get closer
with the Somali side of me and the more black side of me. And I think that's something I can I'm
so glad I was able to do, and I don't think I would have been able to do that any other college I
feel, because I was able to be completely myself and learn about what's great about myself and
how I am enough and like just really cool stuff in like a lot of the rhetoric that you know, the
Augsburg administration, like staff and the people from the president down like it's so inclusive
and positive and I'm like, this is great, you know, just being like a young kid going to this thing
by myself. I just felt like at the same time I wasn't alone. So it was nice to do that at Augsburg,
and you know, every day I was growing and understanding that there's problems here and I
wanted to fix it and you know, becoming more complete in a sense, you know, just being
having those parts of me that I wasn't so sure about my, you know, my heritage and my culture
that being filled in, like everyday a little bit was really amazing. And then but at the same time
knowing how to navigate in white space was very, like, you know, beneficial the same time
because I could do both. And it was, I think that it’s something that I really attribute to being
my time at Edina and it was really helpful. So I think I think that I really appreciate that time
there too.
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. While you were saying all that, you mentioned know, being black
and being Muslim being Somali, like how would you describe your identity as a whole and you
can interpret that however you want?
Yeah. Um, I describe my identity, just like the way that you know, people, in America like to put
people in boxes, you know, like I feel like nowadays we all put people in boxes and say you're
this, you can’t be that, or you’re this or you’re that, you know, but I think I’m me, then I'm
Muslim for me and then I'm also Somali. And I'm also black. Because black, being black is a race
and like, every day I go out in this world and nobody.. For example, I was just in Israel and
Palestine and I'm Muslim, but I'm not visibly Muslim as opposed to my Muslim… My Somali like
you know, the Somali women in my community who are visibly Muslim it they wear hijabs. So I
just look like you know, quote on, you know, a regular black person, a black man. So like I go up
to this al-aqsa mosque and at the entrances they have these guards that are asking people if
they're Muslim or not because sometimes during certain times only Muslims can go into the
mosque and these were Israeli soldiers. So then I say “yeah, like yeah hi I want to go pray” and I
walk past, “hey, are you Muslim”, like “yeah, I’m Muslim” and they look at me so like I'm not
Arab or anything like that but I'm Muslim at the same time. So I asked them like “hey, like why
can’t I go in?” Like I'm like, I'm Muslim like let me just get through and I want to go pray but you
know, they look at me they you know, they just give me a hard time for a little bit and then they
ask for my passport and I was like, why would my, my passport doesn’t stamp “I’m Muslim”, it
doesn’t show that I, what my religion is and eventually you know, I just told them you know, I’m
Muslim I want to go, I need to go pray, so they just let me through. But you know, just
understanding that you know, at the end of the day like before that when people see like I’m,
my skin color, I’m black, and I can’t erase, like that’s something, that’s something that people
can’t try to erase like I am who I am, and then I'm Somali as well, like Somali’s an ethnicity as
like even though people, it's a nationality, some people believe, it's also an ethnicity and I think
it is, um, like but um, but yeah I think, uh, that's who I identify myself as and I know now as
we're coming up with different, you know, things to identify people because everybody's so
different, you know, and that's beautiful, because I think there's, um, I think I'm [incoherent]
learning [incoherent] while at Augsburg, so I’m cis-gendered, I think? Heterosexual male?
Yeah.
So that's something new about myself I didn't know. I didn't know the wording I knew I knew
that, but I didn't know how to word that. So that's something new I learned as well. And also
my pronouns, too, it’s like, every day we're learning how so complicated people are and so
different, like, I feel like we should be able to, you know, it's, you know, just really explore that
and, you know, embrace that, and I love how Augsburg does that and it's a cool thing.
Yeah, I totally agree. I didn't know about any of those things coming into Augsburg too and now
getting ready to leave soon. It's like, I feel like I know so much more.
Yeah.
And we all are so different but like, I feel like that brings me closer to people. It's like we have
so many different things. So, yeah, definitely relate to that. So you talked about, like being
Muslim and being black. And I just want to know, like, some of the ways how does like being
Muslim affect your black identity? if any?
I don't really think it does. Because I don't know. Um, I feel like blackness is not just one thing,
you know, it's like blackness is a lot of times construed as just being like, um like, um American
black, you know, like African American culture but, but there's so much more than that.
Because black people are everywhere in the world, and there's different, there's different
aspects to blackness and being black. And also like, I don't know, like in America, we see African
Americans are black and black people, they’re the same thing. What am I saying? Like, black
people like, see that’s what I’m saying, it's kind of people, like people think. I don't know, it's
like, you can be black but sometimes, you know, African American, you know, like, yeah.
Yeah, exactly. So like, it's just, it's like people, it's something that people can just are just
different. They don't understand.
Right.
And it's hard to understand. But, like in America, black are a minority. But, you know, it means
something else to be in a country where the black people are the majority and how you don't
have to think about you know, institutional racism, even though even though, I believe in all
black majority countries still feel racism.
Right, right.
You know because of colonization and imperialism.
Exactly.
But yeah it's like there's so many aspects to it and it's, I think it does you know it says it does
people an injustice to say, you know, like you know, you’re not black enough or you know, or
black. This is black, like what is? There's so many different things it's like you know it's so, it's
really weird to see it and I remember growing up people told me I wasn't black enough or,
“you’re so white.” That's something I really heard a lot and it was the worst thing because it's
like what does that mean “I'm not black enough”? What is being white? What is being black? I
am black. It’s my skin. I am who I am, so putting people into boxes is so weird, but at the end of
the day blackness is a thing that people I feel like especially, you know, Muslims are black and I
feel like that Muslims have been erased from the whole now black Muslims have been erased
from the whole narrative of what it is to be a Muslim because all you see in the media are Arab
Muslims, or lighter skinned Muslims. And, yeah, you just tend to see that a lot. So that's
something that I feel like we're trying to reclaim now. That you know, black people are Muslim
and you know, black culture is part of Muslim culture, like the first person to ever give the, the
[] was, was an Ethiopian slave or ex slave named Bilal. So like the black Muslims have been
around since the time of you know, like, since for a very long time, so it's something that you
know, it's it is here and it's a thing and should be celebrated as well.
Yeah, I mean, that's like what we're learning about in our class too, which has been like super
eye opening to me is that like a majority of the slaves who, like were brought to America were
Muslim. But I don't know, I guess like I was never taught that and I never knew that. Yeah, so
that was like, crazy. And I know like so much history has been lost because of like the slave
trade and things like that. And I've just been, yeah, because you're just not taught that and then
there does like seem to be like such a divide in that context like disregarding black Muslims and
like that like side of our history. So that's been super interesting to learn. And within the black
community, though, do you ever feel any divisiveness? Like because of your religion or
experience any, like Islamophobia within the black community?
I'm trying to think personally… I can't really think of anything like that. Um, I just feel like maybe
I see accounts of other, you know, maybe I can tell you there’s like an African and you know,
African American kind of divide ‘cuz I remember like maybe people recounting the stories of
growing up African in America like coming straight from [Africa] as an immigrant not having
ancestors as slaves or anything like that. So the people, you know, there's this divide thinking
that, you know, Africans were like, you know, poor and they’re, you know, starving and they’re
in need so like, you know, I think the term African booty scratcher something that comes up a
lot when people talk about their childhood because that's something that people who people
who were direct immigrants from like, like, Africa like, like I said direct immigrants like they
came within their life from Africa. We had to deal with that anti-African nature, but I don't think
I really experienced in my life any anti-Muslim rhetoric from um, I don't know just, just like, like
from everyday life from other black Americans. Yeah, but I know that it exists though. It's a
thing that does exist.
Yeah. And what do you like have to say about that?
I don't think that that's something we should be, you know, something we should be fighting
about. I feel like we are already, as Black Americans, we’re already fighting a lot and
divisiveness within our own communities and I know we're all different community with, like
different communities exist within the black community, but we're all you know, dealing with
the same things essentially. And I feel like being united is much more beneficial to us and in
each religion it really does just preach tolerance, and I think that's something that we need to
like, you know, keep practicing because whatever may be I know that, you know, saying or just
treating something different because their religion is wrong and being more tolerant of that.
Yeah, I'm just like thinking about you talking about like the divisiveness between like Africanborn coming here and you know, like products of the slave trade. I definitely see that a lot.
Yeah.
And it is so frustrating to see because at the end of the day, everyone else sees us as black, you
know, like we're all the same.
Yeah. Even though we're not.
Even though we're not! Even though we have like many differences but like to have that own
divide in our community that's super frustrating to see. And really hard to watch, and especially
then going further into, like, islamophobia within the black community. Especially now knowing
like, the history of like our people also being Muslim is, yeah, crazy to me. Um, so I asked before
that, you know, like, how does your Muslim identity like effect your black identity, but now the
opposite like, does your black identity ever affect your Muslim identity? Like do you ever
experience colorism within your religious community or anything like that?
Well, like again, I feel like I’ve just been kind of blessed not to, like experience a lot of that, or
yet. But I do know within, I know there is colorism within the Somali community and I guess like
99% of Somalis or a very large, high percentage of Somalis are Muslim, so I don't— there isn't,
in Islam, there isn't, you know anything like colorism I feel that's like a cultural thing. And again,
that's part of white supremacy. That's creating these divides and making people not be
comfortable in their skins and making blackness look like an evil and bad thing. That's why
they're like, that’s why the skin whitening industry is like, you know, very big in majority African
countries and I feel like it's not something that in Islam, but I know that it's something that, that
it’s cultural and that needs to be destroyed because everybody's equal in Islam. That's a
beautiful thing. That's why people during the time of the Prophet [incoherent] were on, you
know, one of the reason that they didn't– were very against him because he's, there, like you
know, slaves who were, you know, part… slaves who were Muslim were in like the same rank…
like looked upon the same way in the eyes of God that you know people who were you know
kings or whatever, because we're all the same in the eyes of God so that's something that
people were very mad about. And so everybody's… this colorism thing is very difficult and really
is present and it's really, it's a big thing and you can see it within Somali community, you can
also see that you know maybe some Arabs think maybe that you know they might be better in a
sense sometimes. That's what, that's what I've heard. That you know that… even like the, you
know, that there's even this colorism within the black– in the Muslim community like that, too.
That maybe that the religion was, you know, how do I say, like founded in this part– in that part
of the world, Arab world, but and that they may be closer to it or have more, you know, more
ties to it. So they might be better or something like that. So, and they don't see maybe as black
Muslims being, you know, the same level as them but it doesn't make sense because we're all
the same in the eyes of God so it's something that we need to work on and I think that it's
getting better but there's a lot of work to be done.
Yeah, and that's not to say all Arabs, of course.
Right.
You know, but that's something that I've seen and I, I know that it's around. Yeah.
Can you talk a little bit about, like the Muslim community here at Augsburg or here [in]
Minneapolis that you found while you've been here?
Talk about the community here? Well I think this community… again, I have strong ties to the
East African Community here. Especially Somali community, I think it's incredible what the
Somali community here, Somali-Muslim community has done like in these last maybe 20 years
or so. How we've established a community here, how we are integrating and having businesses
here and really just, you know, making this place or a little part of this place our own in a sense,
you know, and like I just think it's incredible. And I want to just help improve that, or you know,
keep it going this whole wave of productivity and you know, business and, you know, just
supporting each other. I think it's really tight knit I think we all have good mindset. But with
any, you know, first generation immigrants or new immigrant community like problems will
arise and I think that you know, with time, those problems will decrease and or will be able to
be better at fixing those problems are at working to fix those problems. So yeah, but it's also
hard with the highlight that's on the Somali community now, especially with the President's
rhetoric and how Ilhan Omar has been attacked in the media. And Ilhan Omar doesn't speak for
all Somalis. But at the same time she is Somali. So that backlash does come back to some extent
back on the Muslim, Muslim Somali community, which also the Muslim community as a whole.
Especially now, especially now with those horrible terrorist event that occurred in New Zealand
and, like right now it's a tough time sometimes being Muslim.
Yeah.
So all you can do sometimes is pray, but at the same time, you know, work to fight against that
and not be afraid. Yeah.
And would you say that the community that you found here helps during those hard times?
Yeah, I think we're all really well [incoherent], with our, we have a lot of Muslim, we have a lot
of mosques here. And I think that's where the community comes from. And we're all we all kind
of the– Minneapolis, Minnesota is a big, Minnesota a big state. Minneapolis is, you know, fairly
big city, but it's really small when I feel like a lot of everybody knows each other here. And
we're all just trying to be better at you know, taking care of one another in the community. And
we all really understand that, you know, it's hard out here. So, you know, [incoherent] I think
the community does a really good job is for be, to be connected.
Is there a specific mosque that you go to here in Minneapolis?
Um, I go to usually at Augsburg, is where I pray usually. They’ve made a good space for us to
pray and allow us to practice our religion every Friday in the Gundale Chapel. We have Friday
prayers, led by [incoherent] and yeah it’s just great at Augsburg.
Yeah. Nice, nice and, I mean you said that you have good space but I know that space is usually
it's a pretty like multi-purpose space. Would you want to have like a more permanent space?
Yeah it's like… well I don't know it's like…I don't know… I would love of course like a little like
little mosque here you know but I feel like you know, sometimes I feel like you know my you
know, people of color sometimes don't… feel like they're asking too much you know. I really,
I'm really happy, like yeah, I really appreciate the space that we have now you know, but… I
have no problems with it. It's really a nice space. It has enough room for everyone and it's
beautiful, really scenic area. Where, an aesthetically pleasing area where like there's a lot of
light coming in and it’s really nice.
Yeah.
Another space would be nice of course, and like everybody, like why not? But I think what we
have now is good.
Before Hagfors was there, what space did you use before that?
We used to pray in the, is it the Hoversten Chapel? Yeah in this… at first we used to pray like I
remember we used to pray literally in the corner like behind the chapel in this little like weird
space by the door and then like I don't know I think one day, one day we like asked to pray like
in the middle in like the actual chapel and like we did but like I remember me and my friends
like, “yeah we're just gonna start praying here, it’s a lot better.” You know but I think we just
ended up going back to the area. I don't know why, but we ended up going back to that little
corner of the of the of the church. And I meant the chapel, and like that was it was a weird area
but I’m glad we got the one we have now, but, uh, yeah, so…
Um, how does religion come into play like with your family? Like, is it very, like important to
your family?
Yeah, religion is, is one of the biggest things. I think it has to be the biggest thing. I think, you
know, I just think that in my family, especially my family, like my dad, like, I'm [incoherent], I'm
trying to be like, my everyday like, you know, with religion, it's you have ups and downs, you
know, but like, you know, you always have to keep trying, of course, like when you were down,
like, just know that your ‘iimans, they’re called your ‘iimans, your faith will be like, you know,
back up again. So, it's something that I constantly work at. It's not something that can be
passive about, I think you have to be like, you know, active in, you know, praying and, you
know, thinking of God all the time, and knowing that God is everywhere. In my family especially
like my dad he– I remember whenever I used to be at home I live on campus now but when I
was at home he would wake me up every day at you know sometimes I'd wake up but mostly
my dad would wake me up, especially when I was a kid you know he’d wake me up every day at
four o'clock, five o'clock in the morning to pray the first prayer of the day and you know and
you always my dad, I think those, his lectures have been like etched in my brain. I think every
time I do something I think, “oh, what would my dad say?” Yeah, and I used to go to like a
Sunday school kind of thing. For, to learn the Quran like, my dad made emphasis do that
because his parents never took him to that. And like he really wish like he said, I wish my
parents took me to that. So he’s trying to like you know, he learned his learning from his past
and you know, trying to make you know us not have these regrets or whatever. So, religion
plays a big part in my life and my family's life, and it's something that I think it's, you know, it's
how I shape my religion, shape, shape how shaped my life. My life is based on in a sense, like
how my religion is, you know, like, I abstain from things because of my religion I do things
because of my religion. I try to be good person, one because I, you know, like I you know, I try
to be good person and then I, you know, I don't know, my religion is a big thing for me. My
head’s all over the place. I think I talk, whenever I talk, I think I like my, I think my brain is
thinking like 100 miles an hour and my mouth is trying to keep up with my brain so I get caught
up sometimes.
Right, right. Yeah. Um, do you have many friends who are you know, like, like American born
blacks result of the slave trade?
Yeah, um, I, I do, but not like many I feel like there, I feel like I really don't have the opportunity
to have too many African American friends. But like at the same time, by opportunity. I mean,
like, I'm trying to think. I don't know, I just feel like I just feel like there’s, I don't know why, but I
feel like maybe there aren't as much at Augsburg for some reason. There's not as much I feel
like, you know, once I got, you know, close to my Somali friends, of course, and people just kind
of stay in their own cliques, but I remember have, especially Minnesota, it's we're already you
know, hard to find to begin with, like, black people in general, you know, so like, Yeah, I do have
some, you know, but I'm not gonna lie. I wish I had more. And I, you know, it's honestly hard to
be like to find black, African American friends sometimes, I don't know why. Am I crazy?
No, you're not. You're definitely not. Okay. That's super like validating. I think about that all the
time. Like being at Augsburg specifically.
Yeah.
Yeah, it is. There just aren't many here. Yeah.
Like I’m thinking, wow have I been just been isolating myself, like not like making attempts but
I'm thinking like, have there even been opportunities to make, you know, make a, you know,
have African and more African American friends? Like in Minneapolis like, I don't know. Maybe
it has to do with just how, like the history of, you know, African Americans within Minnesota. I
just went to the Historical Society, Historical Center the other day and I learned about the
Rondo community that was, you know, just destroyed basically because of the 94. I-94. Yeah,
it's like, crazy. I didn't know that. You know, it's like a whole community, gone. So like, stuff like
that. So the history of African Americans in Minnesota is different. And I know that history of
African Americans in Minnesota is a lot different than… it’s not a lot of different but it is
different than how new immigrants that have came from, you know, Africa or East Africa
wherever, you know Somalis. Sudanese, Ethiopians. I know that it's different. I just think it is
different because they're like, that institutionalized racism and systemic racism. It's been like,
around and has, and has, like, you know, plagued in a sense the African American, African
American community, like here, like much longer than it has our new communities, you know?
Right.
So, yeah, so maybe like, there could be there's probably some research about this. So that's
maybe reason why that's why maybe that some like aren't in like more you know university or
something like that. You know what I mean? Like, like that has to do with the system that
around it that's not having you know that happen. But I do have African American friends.
Um, like what those friends, is does like religion ever come up and is there ever like
conversations on that?
Not really.
No?
Not really it's just regular stuff.
Well no…
I really don't talk about religion really just like too much anyway. I just kind of keep it with
myself and you know I I'm a firm believer by I like people to live their own lives I and me I
already have like I'm already going through like my own like how can I advise somebody to do
something when it's hard for me to do it. So I know it's hard in general. I think that's what we
need to understand, like, you know, like, and if you want to talk about religion, whether like, I
don't know, I think when people do talk about religion, it's kind of giving people advice, or, hey,
don't do that. I feel like a lot of times, that's what it is. Hey don’t to that, you should do this. But
at the same time, you know, like, I think I just like people will do whatever they want to do on I
just don’t like telling people to do with their lives, you know, when I already am trying to figure
out what I want to do with my life.
Yeah, exactly.
Um, I mean, I guess you may not know this, but like, with your siblings, like, what is their
experience been like growing up here and like growing up with their black identity and like
navigating the world in that way?
Yeah, I think, I assume, it's hard. I know for my sisters because you know, it's kind of different
wearing hijab, you know, you don't have to wear hijab when you're that age, but sometimes
they want to, you know, they just want to put it on and go to school like that. So maybe just
know that at that young age, okay, there is some difference, apart from me being black, you
know, and I don't know, hope, hopefully they have some, you know, they can rely on me, my
other, my older siblings, me that I'm the oldest for me my you know, my two other brothers…
my youngest brother, my baby brother he’s the one that's one years old. But maybe rely on us
because I know it's especially hard for Muslim women um in you know predominately white
spaces institutions that exist all over the Minnesota especially in my area. So I hope that they're
comfortable in their skin and their religion. And I think it's going to take you know, some finding
yourself and I don't think this is part of life, you know, knowing who you are, you know,
developing this, you know, sense of, you know, greater of self worth and all this stuff. You
know, it's– they’re young, a lot of my siblings are young and I want them you know, just to go
through this journey as you know, as smooth as possible, of course, I just want to facilitate that,
you know, any way I can.
What are their ages?
Like my oldest younger sister is a junior in high school. And then after that's a big gap because
that one's in the sixth grade. Yeah, so um yeah, and then after that is she's in the first grade.
And then after her, my, that sister is in preschool. She’s doing some preschool, she's like she's
turning four in June. But yeah, they're all really young. So, you know, I just it's I nobody really
knows the answers to this stuff is kind of like, you know, what's the best way to parent like
nobody knows. Every it's every parent's first time parenting. You know what I mean? Like, for
my parents, I know it was their first time being a parent with me and still is, they're learning and
developing new things. So I think it just takes time and you know, eventually everything will be
alright. You know, so you just have to have a positive mentality. So, um, but I know it's hard.
I've been through it, you know, not knowing who you are, you know, not knowing like, you
know, how to define yourself and… yeah.
Would you say like that journey of, you know, like, I guess that we're all going through, of like,
trying to find yourself and like, figure out what you want to do and who you want to be? Do you
find that being Muslim really helps you, like helps ground you in that way and like helps you
figure that out?
Yeah. Um, yeah, I think Islam is a very is like it's a beautiful religion and it really helps you find
yourself like, you know, understand like, it's okay to be you, one, and like, that one that
everything will be okay too. So you don't really have like a big like, I don't know, I just like helps
you with a lot of ways. I’m trying to think like, I don't know, I just Islam has helped me, one, be
a better person really, I think. Be more self aware and kinder really and… I’m trying to like and I
haven't really thought about it. I think I’ve just been doing and not really thinking about it.
Right.
But it..but yeah, I think it’s, it's something that has really helped me in this journey. And it's still
helping me and I want to reiterate like it's, it's not something that you figure out after you
know, a month or whatever it's a process like every day you have to work at it, just like
anything, you know, being a good Muslim being a good person. And like again, like you're just
Islam is not only… it's helped me but again there has to be some push within myself and my
experiences like I see that one why I want to become a dentist is because I really want people
to be comfortable in their own skin and and just like be comfortable with themselves. Like
when growing up, I have had like, still I have fluorosis. It's like a staining in the sense of your
enamel like right here you can see it's like like a little bit yellower in my two front teeth but
that's kind of just it's a developmental problem due to the fluoride content in like the water
when I was growing up. And like that just, like enamel, it's healthy is nothing wrong there's
nothing, anything up with my teeth, it's just a different color and that you know for a while I
was just like, “Oh my God, why is, why is my teeth not white?” As you know the media says like
white, you have to have pearly white teeth and you know, like I was constantly like, “Oh my
God, there’s something wrong with me.” But really after you know, maybe, honestly not too
long ago I realize it's okay, like my teeth are fine, they're strong and healthy. And once I realized
that like you know I realized that, um, you know, it's okay like to be me, and this is me, and I'm
all right. But I want to go into dentistry and help people with that own like self image of
themselves, because maybe it's difficult to, you know, go through the whole process of first
people should love themselves regardless, but I know that maybe somebody wants to fix their
teeth, if they have really crooked teeth, for example, and it's hard for them to eat or whatever.
If you can fix that, that's not only going to help them with their health, that's going to help them
with their self confidence, and that's going to help them in life really, like if you can move
through life more confidently, you're open to so many more opportunities and look at life really
differently. So like that's really changing somebody's entire life. So why not do that for people
within my community who don't even have, like, you know, sometimes opportunity to health
care, that's why I want to do community dentistry and that's something I want to do. Like
that's, that has, Islam is not… it helped me to some part. But it also like my me going through
my life has helped me develop, like what I want to do in the future to, you know, like there's
like God can only like give you… God gives you so much but you know it's up to you to you know
go out and get it, you know? So I think that was an example I took I took Islam with Maheen too
and I think he used… it's a common thing but he said that you can tie, you can tie, what… it’s
something about a camel you can… what is it? Like you can tie your… you can have a camel and
then not tie the rope or something and say, “God will keep this camel here.” But it's also good
to tie the rope so the camel doesn't move you know or something. Like you know, God is there
but you know, like, make sure you're doing like you know putting yourself in a good position to
succeed too.
That is a good analogy. I get it, I get it. Um, so I guess kind of bouncing around because yeah my
mind is like this as well. Yeah, um like how involved in like politics are you and like are you
involved in any groups like have you been to any like Black Lives Matter matches? Are you part
of PASU you know like…
Yeah um, I've been part of like MSA and I'm part of PASU like, like in and out not really part of
PASU because I feel like I've been I used to be part of MSA and I was treasure last year. And
then like, I also I remember through marches like I remember like when Donald Trump was
being elected and like, you know, the murder of Philando Castille I remember I was going to I
went to marches with some of my friends and protests and I remember, you know, we're doing
a lot of, you know, activism. And I know that was a big thing for me for a while, and I knew it
was not right. And I knew like, I just can't accept this. So I'll have to do something about it. And
even to this day, like I'm, I'm the program manager of something called YMCs, called the Young
Muslim Collective and right we really try to change like, you know, influence social change
within our communities, and help, whatever like the community needs of us. So right now
we're doing mentoring. And we're also trying to do maybe some, like clothing drive we did
before. Hygiene drives, like things that the community needs. We're just trying to, like, help do
that. So mentoring is a big thing for us right now. We're trying to partner with some schools in
Minneapolis to just do some maybe summer, like summer program, like because I know the
summers and things get, you know, dangerous and kids are really idle. So maybe having good
role models like it's really important because having role models that like you know, are in
school and like are doing something is really good for young kids to see. Especially how the
media portrays black faces is it's it's something you get to see like, within our own community
like this is possible. So that's what we're doing. And also like I work with these, this group, this
nonprofit called Somali American Youth Enrichment Club. And we do, we do… It’s mostly a
soccer club, but we're focused on doing homework help before the kids come and play soccer.
So that's what we're doing, it’s in St. Paul. It's at a place called [incoherent] Academy and they
do really good work there. So that's something I've been doing and I think I just want to keep
doing that for a while. And just kind of do things that… I'm also like on the board of my
neighborhood council, Linden Hills neighborhood council and like, I've learned so much in these
since like I got elected back in like October, but since then I’ve been learning so much and I
really thank people on the board for you know teaching me and just you know allowing me,
allowing me to be myself and including me in decisions making me feel welcome it's been just a
great experience. So I'm just kind of hoping to grow and experiences because I'm so young I
think and there's so much to do so much to see like I feel like you know, hopefully I keep this
optimism as I'm moving forward and this you know, this youthfulness of myself like that I have
like hope that something that can keep driving me and I think it can for a while. So..
Um just a couple more questions. Okay. Bouncing back into growing up, and like growing up
here and like especially going to a predominantly white High School, like how has your like
childhood been here and how have you like navigated those kind of spaces too?
Yeah, like, for a while, like, I just didn't really think too much about it. I just kind of, it's like,
whatever, we’re all just different. But then I realized, like, it's like, I think, you know, just maybe
having to assimilate more than, you know, I should have because I feel like assimilate like you
know, because I was obviously the minority culture there so there's not only white culture
there’s also American culture, but I'm from a place where there's Somali culture and then
there's Muslim culture. Not culture, but there are things as Muslim I have to do and have to you
know, so like, growing up like that was very difficult because none of that was something I saw
on a daily basis within my friends or at school. So it's hard to, you know, like, hard to you know,
differentiate between, differentiate between the two because it's so much easier just, you
know, go into the dominant culture and just become just like them because who wants to be
left out or feel different. So, that was something that I wish didn't happen, you know, but I
think coming back to Augsburg and finding out back to who I was and who I want to be
something that I really am thankful for, but I think like, it became more prominent in high
school when like, you could really see the difference between how I’m supposed to be and like
how, you know, things are because, like, you know, drinking culture becomes a thing and like,
you’re Muslim and you can drink, you know, and like, and like, people are going to parties, and
it's like, hey, like, you don't do that. It's like, you know, it's like, you start feeling differently,
okay, where can I go where I don't feel different anymore. You know, when I found people who
are, you know, very similar to myself, it's like, I can, you know, be myself I don't feel different. I
feel like I'm normal with everybody around here. But that doesn't mean like, I don't like enjoy,
like then, as I keep growing see, like, this is growth like as I'm growing and becoming an adult, I
see that it's okay. Like I can do both like even though I like, you know, I having my friends who
like me it's I also have a lot of friends who aren't Muslim or, you know, Somali. And I'm growing,
like, every day knowing that I can it's okay like I can differentiate, differentiate between the
two. It's I know people can do that, but I can do this, I can just be myself. It's fine. I'm
comfortable like this. Yeah, so that's how I've kind of navigated through my life so far.
And like, seeing those differences of, you know, of like, American culture in general, you know,
not like not drinking and like not doing those kinds of things within like, I use this term, broadly
like black culture. It’s so different everywhere. Yeah. But do you ever feel a disconnect from
that because of it?
Like, I guess I don’t know, it's the same thing though kind of, you know, it's like, but like people
don't really understand this is like, there’s when you when you start to say that, you know
African American culture is you know totally black culture like I you know like I don't know like
that you know and people can argue like you know, that is black culture but at the same time
like I don't know if I'm thinking that you can't just say oh and like the people Africa that's
African culture, but do you know how many countries are there are in African how many people
speak different religion I would speak speak different languages and how many different
religions there are and like, how so different people are in Africa like that, like, what is that?
That is not black culture too? Is that just this specific culture, like, you know, like, you could say,
it's like, you can't really put this whole thing in a box and say, you know black culture is, it's
becoming American culture, like pop culture because black people influence so many things
around the globe that yet people don't want to acknowledge that you know it's like we from
social media which black people control you know, like you know, a little like you know what is
it from mannerisms to like new words, slang like everyone like and people are making money
from this kind of stuff and it’s like black Twitter controls, you know, like we created this is our
stuff that just people think it's cool you know, just taking blackness and removing it from black
people. That's what people want sometimes, you know, so… But for me, I just think that it's you
know, acknowledging like there is difference, but if you're suspecting it, like you know, for I like,
like Somali people for example, or Muslim, Muslims or whatever they may be in their culture
because there's some things that are Islam and there's some things that are Islamicade, I think
that I learned that it's like the culture behind it that influences the religion. But the culture
aspect and with that America like, you know, some Muslims in America have whether it be Arab
culture and with different culture there exists within like Arab nations and black culture it’s just
like just difference in culture. It's literally like, like, or for me, like, I'm black. But you know, I
don't I'm not like I'm also i'm not even African American. But like, again, like I'm SomaliAmerican. So there's a difference acknowledge that, hey, there's a difference. And I respect
that difference. It’s like you don't have to, you know, to go into that culture, you can do
whatever you want too, but like at the same time that you acknowledging that there's a
difference between Somali culture and African American culture, that's what I think and like,
kind of respecting those differences at the same time. That's not saying that those cultures
cannot like you know intertwine or whatever, like people can do whatever they want, like I can,
you know, even if I wanted to I could abandon my Somali culture and you know, going to
different like you know culture, not culture but just like do different things that resemble that
are not in quote on quote Somali culture, but at the same time it just kind of like people do
what they want and like, these things are there, it's not saying one is better than the other, just
that that's what they are. You know, I feel like that erasure that a lot of like, immigrant families
have I think it's a clash because a lot of parents come in and they have this whole mindset and
that they have these beliefs and these cultural beliefs, whether it be whatever and then they
come to America [incoherent] their children's are acting a lot different than..out there acting
like oh my God, why, you know, becoming so different Americans, whatever, that's total
disconnect between the parents and the children that people have. And that's where this
conversation becomes like, you know, that's the them and us like very strict, you know, and
like, being able to, like, you know, you know, acknowledge it and like, you know, respect it is
one thing you know, but same time understanding that, you know, you're from this other thing
it’s cool too you know, like understanding. But you can know both, you know, I don't know. if,
that makes sense.
I get what you're saying. And yeah, I mean, and it sounds like you are like very comfortable like
having these like, different identities of yourself.
Yeah.
And like, overlapping them, like with Muslim culture and black culture and Somali culture and
all those things and like, that just makes you, you.
Yeah.
Um, but do like any of your other friends or like do your siblings struggle with having all those
different identities and being comfortable with that?
You know, my siblings, I like to, I think they're so like, my siblings are so smart and they're just
so like, you know, free and you know, I don't know how they feel about that. I hope they’re… I
can see that they're dealing with it in a very way that's comfortable for themselves. And, you
know, I try to talk to them and see if everything's all right. So in the future, maybe like, I’ll ask
them, even more about that, you know, just trying to figure that out. But yeah, I think they're
doing a good job handling that and but overall, I think people kind of kind of, like, the hard thing
is when you mix culture, religion and like, at the same time, you can be a part of for me, like I
can be I can do whatever I want, and do things at different part of different cultures. And like,
you know, whether it be American culture, whatever, but at the same time, as long as it doesn't
like, you know, go against my religion. That's what it is. Yeah.
And do you see your friends like, very similar to you in that way?
Yeah, I think my friends are very similar I think that usually people like to surround themselves
with people who are like very similar to themselves, you know, right.
Right, right. Well, that's good. I'm just a couple more questions just like out of curiosity, like
how do you feel about the use of the n-word in the black community? Or within like, African
immigrant community?
Aw man…
Not to get controversial.
Okay, well, like I just think that. I don't know. Like, I think it's something that a lot of people on
social media, especially, you know, Twitter have, like debated about forever, you know, and I
think that, you know, I use, I use the N word, and I think that it's something that, like that word
one, has been reclaimed by the black community. And I don't think, you know, I just think that
it's something that has like been it wasn't just for African American people I feel I feel like it was
for black people you know it’s aimed at Black people you know like and I'm out here if I'm
saying like me and African American friend of mine you know or even a Liberian friend like you
know my friend BK or anybody you know like or Somali friend so we could go out and
somebody can call us the n-word because they don't know we’re Somali they don't know
anything or Muslim they just see we’re black so you know, I just think that alienating people
from the something like something that I don't think is even a big deal like that it's like why
have these things why why further separate us from each other you know, I think it's something
that's kind of bring us together you know, and we can fight people who are saying it like, you
know, white people and like you know, other people who are not black saying it all the time
willy nilly that I see like at parties or whatever, like like where maybe I see like not parties like I
don't really go to parties but I see like on twitter i people are always fighting like, like I don't
know they say like, you know some songs have the n-word so why can’t I sing the song? If it's
like at a if I can’t say the n-word if it's in the song? It’s just a song I don't mean it, but it's like still
like if somebody is not comfortable with you using the word, why do you want to use the word?
It's a word, it's a word that like, why would you want to use it? For what reason?
No, literally. That was a good answer, I totally agree too. Like is there anything else that I like
didn't ask that like you've been itching to say?
Um… not really I think we talked about a lot of stuff. But I just think we all are all going I don't
know we're all going through this world just like so new, and we don't know what's going on
and think, how old are you? Like 20?
21
21. Okay I’m 21 too, and just like you know maneuvering through this world, I just think we all
should be like, you know, this is so cliche, but you know, honestly very kind and just kind of
respectable about each other because especially like other people of color, because we're going
through, like a lot, you know, and that doesn't mean you shouldn't be respectful to other
people like of not color but I'm saying like, it's, you know, especially hard, especially in spaces
where you're not the majority, and you feel different all the time. So I just feel like we should all
be better people to each other, you know, and that's something that, you know, we can all do
on micro scales, like we often we can do that by doing little things and it's not these big grand
gestures of, you know, acceptance or whatever that usually like, you know, that are going to do
the most work. I feel like little things add up and make really big difference, you know, so, I
thank you for your time and you’re doing some really important stuff.
Thank you. Um, do you have any questions for me about like, what I asked, anything like that
how it’s going to be used, anything?
Yeah. What's like so what's so after this it's going to go like, is you're going to give it to your
professor something like what is he gonna do?
Yeah, after this, I'm going to like transcribe it and so like write everything out that you said. And
basically like, write a paper about it and like about the topic in general and basically use you as
quotes.
Wow.
I give a presentation, basically, like taking quotes of what you said and presenting it to the class.
All right.
It’s kinda cool!
Yeah, that’s cool. That’s cool.
You had a lot of good things to say too. So. I think I have I have a lot to use.
Okay. I’m glad I could be of some help.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Speaker : Abdul Artan
Today is the 27th of April 2021. My name is Salwa Hassam. This interview is for the Muslims in
Minnesota projects for Augsburg University. If you could introduce yourself to the recording and
say when and where you were born.
Bismillahi Ar Rahman Ar Raheem. My name is... Show more
Speaker : Abdul Artan
Today is the 27th of April 2021. My name is Salwa Hassam. This interview is for the Muslims in
Minnesota projects for Augsburg University. If you could introduce yourself to the recording and
say when and where you were born.
Bismillahi Ar Rahman Ar Raheem. My name is Abdul Artan. I was born in Somalia, the district of
Kismayo. January 1 1967.
Thank you. To begin, can you describe how life was for you growing up in Somalia and Kenya?
I was very young. When I was born in Somalia, I cannot recall so much. What I know is our,
family, back then were people who used to have animals, I mean, cows, sheeps and goats. So
those were, I'll say we were nomads or pastoralists. And that was the, the day to day work that
we used to look after those animals. The stock. And that is as much as I can remember I can
remember thick grass and vegetation. And when I was young, but then I moved to Kenya, and
that is why I started my primary education. And I went to secondary after which I moved to
South Africa.
What would you name your biggest accomplishments?
The biggest accomplishment is going to school by then, which was not a norm in the sense that
kids of my age, were never going to school or sent to school by their parents. Instead, there
used to be herdsman. And I say I will say that was one of my biggest achievements.
Can you recall any specific events from your childhood that you would say shaped how you
approach the world in general?
I cannot recall specific event but I can remember as we used to move from place to place with
our hearts inside of greener pastures. I can remember a night, whereby we moved from a
certain area to another place. And what happened is, I slept out of the house. And then I'm in
the middle of the night a lion came. And I was almost taken by that lion, but it never happened.
So those are some of the scary moments of our life. But then we move back to the townships
where schools and normal life was taking place.
Now tell me about your transition from Somalia and South Africa to the United States.
By then we moved to because of the the difficulty in Somalia and the Civil War, we move from
Somalia, first, then to Kenya, then to South Africa, where we thought it was a place where we
could get a better life and some sort of tranquility. That is where we started our life again back
normal life. We own some shops, of course, which was not easy. It was a difficult life. Because
there were also some how do I say, people are the the citizens of South Africa, the South
African citizens by then never used to like the foreigners, particularly the people from the
continent of Africa. And we were targets that whereby we were resettled again to United States
of America.
How has Islam influenced your life?
I was born Muslim. And all our life. We grew up in areas where the majority were Muslims and it
is our way of life and it's our way of life, our way of life. And we were taught, from a young age,
how to read the Koran, and the Prophet's way of life. And we grew up with that till today.
What hopes do you have for the next Muslim generation in Minnesota?
It's very bright indeed. People in Minnesota, this big Muslim population, particularly the East
African population. And then we have couple of challenges, but I would say, the prospects, good
prospects, are bigger than the challenges, cultural challenges the mainstream American way of
life, the Islamic way of life. But at the end of the day that balances out and we will be, we will
have a generation that has both the formal education and Islamic education.
Who are three people in history you admire most and why
The Prophet alayhi salatu salam was a great leader. Who we follow his way of life. I will say that
is one of my that that shapes my life. Secondly, the parents who brought me up and thirdly the
journeys that I had to from one country to the other, that also shaped my life.
Great, thank you so much. Thank you.
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MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting
an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to
interview...state your name, please.
AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan.
MM: How's your day?
AH: Pretty good. How are you? How ar... Show more
MM: Hello everyone, this is Mohamed Musse at Augsburg college, and I am conducting
an interview. This is for an Augsburg history or history 195...and I'm here to
interview...state your name, please.
AH: Hi, my name is Abubakar Hassan.
MM: How's your day?
AH: Pretty good. How are you? How are you, man?
MM: not bad, you know, doing well. Thank you very much. So I'm here to interview
Abubakar at Augsburg library. Today is December six 2019, and thank you for
participating in this Abubakar
AH: yeah no problem.
MM: And would you please start giving us information about your background and
education please?
AH: Yeah, of course, of course. Um, my parents are Somali. I grew up in Minnesota, but
I left when I was a kid. I went to Egypt to live there and six years I traveling with my
parents. Then I came back around 2016 I had to come back because I was losing my
English, and I wanted to get back where I was before...uh so around 2016 I started
sophomore year in high school...uhm...I wasn't that strong of like my education It was
kind of pretty weak because I would be gone from a long time from America so when I
came back I just I had to start all over again, my English, my grammar wise meeting
new people's starting like-starting new school again start fresh get you know get I have
to get-I have to get used to the winter now because like I haven't been winter for so
long, and I forgot about it when I came back. So as you knows, it's been a while now.
Now. I'm just Augsburg university student I'm studying doing my work and I'm just doing
me I'm in a team. I'm doing a track field. I'm just yeah doing me right now
MM: very good.
AH: Yeah.
MM: And you said you went to high school right?
AH: Yeah.
MM: and what was the name?
AH: I went to Edina high school.
AH: Yeah.
MM: And that was a big school wasn't it
AH: Yeah it was a big school basically was the thing was the top five school.
MM: Wow. And whats the graduating class.
AH: uh....
MM: Estimate?
AH: The estimate? I-i'm no 100% sure but I think it was around 950 of us.
MM: Wow. So almost 1000 right?
AH: Yeah, it was it was crazy.
MM: So that was a big school was it?
AH: It was definitely a big school.
MM: And you really loved it didn't you?
AH: Edina? Not really. Uhm...(Laughs) It was a great school where I started but you
know, it was it was a lot a weird school. You know, it was it was a white school. So i-it
was just, you know, it was pretty weird. I like to teachers those cool people there. I love
the sports. You know, it was like it There is, it got me a good memories, you know?
MM: Speaking about memories, so uhm what do you recall about your childhood?
Ah: My childhood?
MM: Yes....Yeah, so let's like, go back to like until you were a kid.
AH: Cool. Okay. So as specifically you're talking about when I was a kid, I was a kid and
of course I lived in Minneapolis, Minnesota, but not Minneapolis just Minnesota. I lived
here when I was like, What? 10 nine years old. So I haven't I haven't been in middle
school for so long in here because I skipped for so long. I came back freshman year. My
childhood wasn't that you know, that fun? It wasn't that difficult also to but it was. It was
a great memory of my m- when I was a kid. You know, I went to a uhm like religion
school. I've learned bit-I've learned about some of my religion. You know, I went to I
went sport. I went to uh-I sometime work sometimes but I actually don't because my
parents won't let me because I was too young. But I wanted to work, you know, to help
out myself and help out others too and my parents and my family, but my parents won't
let me. So yeah, my childhood wasn't that difficult but it was it was there was a lot of
good memories in there
MM: Yeah as I can see. And as a child, you know, do you remember where like where
did you live, go to school?
AH: uhm School wise I probably don't remember but I think I lived in Plymouth. uhm I
lived there..uh I think I think two years...uhm no, no I lived in I lived there for a while
lived in a while. For school wise I don't remember hundred percent because I left long
times. I don't remember what school that I go to.
MM: Makes sense okay. And uhm...what did you remember, remember about your
parents as a child, not now, specifically, but back then?
AH: As my parents?
MM: yeah, what did you remember best about your parents?
AH: I mean, I mean, they're same as who they are now. My parents are hardworking,
they're funny they're smart. I love them both through a bottom bottom my heart I wish
they can be held you know happy together their are no hope they'll be you know, hope
they go heaven you know inshallah...And uh but my parents, you know, they, they were
they came from Somalia to here you know, there was a both were immigrants, they
didn't know what they were doing Minne- Minne in the USA. So they had to work hard,
you know, because they had the had of kids, you know, they had they get it they have to
get money. They have to save up they had to get a house he had you know, you know,
health insurance. You have to get everything ready. They're hard working people I can
see and I want to do what they did. You know, I want to follow that. their footsteps so I
can repay them back what they did for me? So they're are good parents and I love them
so much. So I-they're great. They're great. T
MM: Mhm. They're great parents. That's very good to hear. And are you an only child or
did you have nore siblings?
AH: No, I'm the middle child.
MM: Wow. Yeah. So you get the most hate.
AH: Mostly Yeah. (Laughter) I'm also getting most of the hate in from the brothers and
sisters.
MM: All the backfire huh?
AH: Yeah, the backfire? Yeah, most parents look up the middle, I look up the older and
also talk about the youngest, you know, the middles like it was okay, you know, like,
hang in there. You got it, like (chuckles) in the middle does not matter. So it's like it's
cool, but also, you know it's okay,
MM: So were you uh were you an obedient child with the mischievious one?
AH: Um, that's a funny, I was kind of both because I was good, and I was also bad. So I
was like, I was a kid. You know, we don't care as kids wise. We don't have Both we
have like, we could do bad or good thing the same way you know what I'm saying but I
was I was both to be honest. I was both.
MM: Mhm. Wow. And how many people are you in your family?
AH: Uhmm in total right now? I think there'll be seven, eight or nine of us.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah.
MM: that's a big family.
AH: It is
MM: and you're right there in the middle.
AH: Yeah. Yeah.(Laughs)
MM: that's actually good to hear. So you are the middle child. of...household of seven
plus your mom and dad.
AH: Yep.
MM: And you are as of now 18 years old am I correct?
MM: 19? Okay.
AH: 19(Whispers)
AH: yeah, I'm 19
MM: Okay. And you you do have older siblings and right that you do look up to?
AH: Yes, I do. They're the-Yeah, the the older than me. I very look up to them because,
you know, they made mistakes. They made a path where they were looking for and I
want to follow their footsteps. You know, they told me like, Hey, don't do this. You know,
like, hey, follow follow our steps but not exactly, you know, you got to make your own
path to follow us. And I'll follow don't make mistakes that we did, you know, do the right
things, but don't do the bad things we that we did you know, I'm trying to look up to them
and be a better Brother, you know, and, and also, you know, I have a little sisters too
show them like hey be you know, be be a good girl, you know, like, follow us and I'm
teaching my sisters and my brothers, you know, be a good, you know, school and
having our education education is number one first.
MM: Yes. And uhm speaking of family...let me ask you a question. Did your family have
any special traditions such as things they did on holidays or maybe birthdays?
AH: Well, I don't know about birthdays. I mean, I think that do...uhm but not my parents.
I think my brothers like wives they do like when their kids have a birthday party. They do
mostly but it was specifically my parents. Probably like Ramadan.(chuckles) Like mostly
like Islamic religions traditions, that's it but like nothing else because they don't care.
And this one we don't we don't follow those because they're like, my parents are like,
religios-religios all like, but they don't they don't care about birthdays or anything else
like that.
MM: They just cared about your education.
AH: Yeah.
MM: Working hard.
AH: Yeah.
MM: getting the job done.
AH: Yep, of course.
MM: Yeah, so um, just tell me about your parents...or like their background, how they're
working.
AH: yeah. Um, so, my, my dad side, you know? My grandma, I never met my grandma
because she died when I was born. like two months later when I was not, no of course
when I was born. My grandpa, he's still alive. I can't meet my grandma, my grandpa
because he said I have to memorize the Quran and I have to know Somali to visit him.
So that's the one thing I can't do. I almost finished the Quran, but Somali, I'm really
tough to learn, but I'm trying my best to meet my parents and my, my mom's side, my
dad's side. My mom's side there that their everywhere guarantee. I like my mom told
me, their family, the Sister whatever they like the everywhere else like I want to meet
them. You know I want to see you know, my parents My parents side so Starting later
on, I want to slowly get to my traditions from my meet my generations me my life, my
parents side me my, basically I want to see my family tree before I die. That's my that's
basically my main goal. I want to see my family, the whole family, you know, I want to I
want to know, my generations I want to see I want to know by stories on what I want to
see what happened, you know who, what is like, I know I want to I want to know
everything from my generation.
MM: Yes, that's a very important thing to do. Also and As a kid growing up where were
you?
AH: I don't have a lot of details but-I lived in Plymouth, but later on I lived in Egypt
MM: like you said, Egypt okay, so how each like.
AH: crazy man if you want me to tell you the whole story Egypt is actually a beautiful
place is very hot very hot. The people are funny I guarantee that some people come
with like the first days they think like oh my god that people are rude or like they're not
be nice No, like I when I just moved there is I already loved it because people were
funny people were you know, there's some rude people but like they're they're so
they're so funny. And and I'll slowly learning their language, like learning the culture,
learning like what like what would they eat, what they do, how they sleep and what they
talk about. They're play, you know, I played I played soccer like, three o'clock A.M like,
that's that's a crazy thing you know, like we play football during even Ramadan. Like it's
just crazy, like Egypt is a beautiful spot and a beautiful place to learn, like who you are
and what is your religion you know, you know it's a it's a great spot to visit and I love it I
like I want to go back again like hopefully later on, you know, and I want to have kids
and I want to show them like this is this is the place when I figured out myself and who I
am and like learn what is my religion like religion and all that. So we're Egypt is a
beautiful place in you know, it's not a great place to live but as a great place to visit and
to understand, like Islam. If I'm talking specific, it's a great place to understand.
MM: Yeah, so yeah, and also leaving America and going on with Egypt. How do you like
weigh it out America versus Egypt? You know lifestyles.
AH: LikeMM: how would you explain that
AH: Like compare?
MM: Yeah.
AH: Well, if I say comparing like when I first came to-when I first came to Egypt, the
people at the airport very friendly for some like, very friendly. You know, they gave me a
kiss On the cheeks like Both I was like, Wait, what? I was confused. So, you know, like
they're, they're very nice. They're cool people I love them. When I came to Egypt came
to USA matter of fact, you know, it was I came during uh heat, you know, summertime it
came in around May, so later on and on when winter came, I didn't like I was like, Whoa
What is this, you know, because I forgot snow. So people were like, there's I didn't-did'nt
like the energy you know, I didn't I didn't like the vibe because there's still some
negative vibe in America and I didn't like it because it's like what is this you know there's
some people looking at you like like why are they looking at me like this you know
there's some this there's still negative vibe. like I'm not saying just America this
everywhere but like if I compare them in America is definitely America the you know,
because I just you know is the vibe in the energy how America brought to me and how
broad the Egypt it's just, the scales way different 100% way different
MM: And as a cultural standpoint you would they would very be you know different
right?
AH: yeah yeah even a cultures religions you know I've Egypt Br--. I can hear you know
the prayer time I can hear like one What time do I have to go the prayer what time I can
hear it. Like in America, I can't, I have to look what time is Prayer, you know, and I have
to drive there and I have to like basically pray. But there's also less people there in
Egypt. I can hear the prayer. I know I don't want to I don't want to know the time I can
hear and just go there and in like, the mosque is just packed. And that's what I love
about it because the brother and sisters are together and learn about religion. That's
what I love about it. So it's like, Is it so it's a whole different you know, thing when I
came to Moved to Egypt to USA is just a whole different vibe when I came there so
MM: Mhm. And also where you live in Egypt?
AH: uh I lived in Cairo.
MM: oh Cairo.
AH: Yeah. It's a it's aMM: part of the country huh?
AH: yeah It is a beautiful It's a beautiful spot. I love it is people that I think Cairos of best
spot is to go visit. So let me talk about you a little about Cairo. So Cairo is is a big is a
big city, it is. I love it there. You know, there's the Red Sea is beautiful. Alexandria is
beautiful. You know, like later on I heard of this of myth. There's a city under the water.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah,
MM: You talking about Like, like Atlantis,
AH: basically like that. Some people I even I visited there too. I I went scuba diving,
scuba diving with my friends. So we were just like, hey, well, this is this is check if we
you know if this is a lie or truth, you know, we did we scuba dived Do we at least like
later, five minutes later we thought we didn't see nothing but we got deeper deeper in
the water. And we did saw we saw statues we saw, like buildings we saw, like so many
things. And I was getting scared. I was like shit. I don't want this. So, so I was, the myth
was true. I was it's a beautiful spot. I swear Alexandria is the most beautiful place I've
visited. You know is is big you know the water is beautiful the people are awesome
people are nice friendly all the food is so delicious also too and I love it so yeah is I don't
know if you know every heared fuul is known as fuul the GrateMM: like beans yeah
AH: it's delicious man. I love it.
MM: You're absolutely true
AH: is is I mean there's another word but I forgot what it is. But it's great in the morning
you know there's some some beans with some bread and you know some like also
some water bro I've been eating so many healthy food.(Laughs) I'm not gonna lie like
I've been eating healthy when I came back here I was like geez
MM: It's like it it's like the best environment for a person.
AH: Yeah it is. Yeah for real but yeah man I'm sure Cairo it is a beautiful spot and I love
it. I like it. You should also visit there two man.
MM: Yeah. And um, let's go back to comparing you know, USA and Cairo since you
know you liked here in there, you know
AH: compare like Cairo and Minneapolis?
MM: Yeah and um, you did live in Minnesota. Yeah. All your life, right? Plus when you're
traveling outside of the state. So, racial-wise, how would you say It affects you?
AH: Raciali-wise? I think it's like-I mean, okay, Egypt they're not racist they're just like
they're going to say you're not...you're not like Egypt you're not you know egyptian
you're not Arab you know, but like they're not the never racist you know, they love you
when you hear you know, they love it. They love us, but they're not gonna say like, a
you know, bad things to us then I look back now. They disagree know, when they're
mad, they're mad. You know, they're gonna say you're not one of us but later on they're
gonna apologize but if you can compare to that in America America is 100% I guarantee
probably bad vibe and like the racism is over there I guarantee that this still going I think
it's still going it's still out there some America people are still racism. So...uh.. to
compare, I can say probably 80% sent to the people in Egypt was probably 80% like not
racist people there or probably 89 but in America guarantee of this probaly like people
who are I guarantee you probably like 70% probably 60 Yeah, what I experienced, you
know, it's not just Minneapolis or Minnesota, this other state and other country and you
know,
MM: Yeah you see the news.
AH: Yeah, it's the news, man. The news is there's this still going on bro there's still
there's still hatred like I don't get it you know why why do they hate us? You know
we're-we're we're them but different color like what that what does that make a different
you know you know I'm saying but like I you know I've been my experience so many
times and you know I don't like it you know Michael Jackson said you know it doesn't
matter if you're black and white and I know that in the impact me I was like, if that
doesn't matter to us why there's still hatred you know? I don't I don't get it is it just some
people are just dumb and they can't they can't move on. They just like all these people
just bad doing is like okay what we doing to you first of all, you live in your life where we
live in our life. So why are you trying to ruin ours you're not trying to ruin yours. It's like
you think you you're trying to say Americans Americans-the United States is a free
country. is a free land. Really is not you should you should just change that because
that's all a lie. You know? When I first here I-I just hated it. I really hated America
because this is all free land. People are nice but that's that's the dust is full of crap. It's
just a lie You know, people just care for the money wise the fame. But here's the
education is very high. Yes, I'll give you that education is very high here But people wise
or not it just just rude and ridiculous r------- and I just......Oh, I'm so sorry man. I was
going in I got I got overthink myself. I'm sorry I'm sorry. I didn't mean to say that. Uhm
So, but comparison man, I don't know they're both different. But to be honest, whatever
is home is home I'm not saying I loved each other more than America Because I can't
because the both of my homes above love it. So either way, whatever makes me happy
what it makes me in the best country you know, I live in other you know. So yeah, man.
MM: Yeah and while you were at Egypt, you know how would you say when you were
you were struggling when you're there you know off course yeah the language
adaptation of ours. Would you like to talk about that?
AH: Yeah, yeah of course man either Living Egypt being the first guy you know,
knowing-not Arab is is really hard because I understand nothing, you know, at least my
dad had some friends there who understands they can help us. But it was hard it was
very hard to understand the people is hard to go outside to make friends even hard to
go grocery shopping, you know, it was just hard man even hard even the prayer time. I
can you know, I can hear that even though Friday prayers I under I didn't understand
nothing. But later on, you know, months months, you know later when I was learning
understanding and becoming one of them. I understand I felt happy because I
understand where we're the same where it was like you know like I can come back you
know if someone example of there's a fight or there's like discussions or something like
that I can come I can join in I can't, I cannot stop it or like do anything with it. So I'm
really happy that I learned it. But like, it's been years, to be honest has been years now.
So it's slowly slowly I'm forgetting the language what I've learned by don't want to lose it
because I want to go back and we like we learned it again. And I want to I Arabic to
stick with me because I was the number one thing I want to learn for like you know,
because is, is the language of the Quran you know to understand the book is still he
knows the is the words of Allah and Is is great to understand it if you know if you know
the language.
MM: Yeah, that's true. And how did your life change? Did you feel grown up?
AH: Oh of course man. When I first came there I feel like a baby when I came back
here, I felt like a man. You know, I was like oh man like I came back but see my
brothers and sisters, you know? I don't know. I think I feel like I've matured You know,
I've I feel like I'm mature Even now I feel like I'm even maturing than before you know?
So it's it's like that you know is I like it I like it. I like I like I like me now that before
because me now before is way better because I understand who I am I understand
what's wrong was right I understand what I'm going to do my future I know what it's
going to happen, you know, not that kind of way but like you know I'm saying like No
Okay, this is wrong. I gotta do this. If I if I'm going to do this, I know it's going to happen
you know that it was a punishment that I'm going to say. But yeah man.
MM: Uhuh, and also which significant historical events have taken place during your
lifetime
AH: significant...
MM: you could take your time...
AH: So Okay, okay. I don't know a lot of details but I can say that you know, I came from
Egypt you know the story I was locked in I didn't know English my education was weak.
So it was kind of hard for me I never I never think of-of graduated high school with
scholarships and having like a 4.0 GPA, like it's even surprising....or you can say 4.0 I'm
say 3.9(Laughter)...but I will say 4.0. but... is I'm I'm just surprised and happy that I even
graduated. You know, I even during the graduation, their principal announced the, the
three best up students and I was one of them. So he called the all three Students, but
those three are always in them. So he called the other cut in on one of them. One of
them. That was me. He called my name up and I had to stand up and I had to say
something, you know, called three best students. And now I was happy I even I even I
was in it, you know, I didn't knew. I didn't know I was in it. But like, I was surprised when
I looked at my parents, you know, I was like, wow, like, he was the best fit students. So
it was like, I was I'm happy that I was and you know, I'm gonna miss my friends. I miss
my friends. You know, I used to know who was like going to college away but like, you
know, I still contact them and hang out with them. You know, as he was great. You
know, my life story has been great. That's one of its But mom, my second one...I don't
know why I followed my sports. Sports wise, you know, I been playing soccer for since I
remember. You know, I was a always, you know, the fastest kid, you know, I was
running, running every time going to condition a ball back forward, back forward back
forth. Later on in high school year, I realized that, you know, soccer wasn't me, you
know, I thought it was but it wasn't me. Then I tried to ice you know, I tried track and I
was fast and I made it on the varsity captain. Like it was crazy. I was like, what how like,
but I mean, I'm even happy that I even made it you know, and track was my thing. You
know, that's why I'm doing track in college because I love running for some reason. I
just love running....except running run away from my dad's belt.(Laughter) But is you
know, all man it was it was a great experience. I love it. I'm still running till now. I'm still
running. I'm trying to find When's is the last finish line.
MM: There we go. And speaking of school, uh how would you say about this was your
family financially comfortable?
AH: Um, I can say yes and no I'm gonna say To be honest, I don't know I think the both
because some of the we have to use some of the government some of us like the other
guys we got it, we can take care of it. But like it does almost a almost a no to be honest
but I'm 100% sure, you know some parents they say, Oh no, it's fine but later on is fine
but you know, I'm not hundreds of sharing I'm apparently still keeping Thanks for me,
you know, but like to be I feel like they're I think they're fine. They they can take care of
themselves. They're fine. The financial aid and health wise I think we're good. You
know.
MM: Mhm. And when we're talking about, you know, financial whar was your first job,
you know, how old were you at the time? Oh, how did you get the job?
AH: My first job was in Egypt.
MM: Wow.
AH: Yeah, I was a song some clothes, like pillows clothes, like any like closer, like
ripped and it was my first job ever, you know my dad, my dad, my you know he didn't
want me to work there but I wanted to because I wanted some money and like helped
him too. But he told me to don't do that. No just quit and it's like Forget it, you're too
young. But later on I my second job I first actually officially Job was McDonald's. It was it
was McDonald's man. I'm not embarrassed with that. Because McDonald's actually like
taught me so many things like patients like helping customers and like understanding
what the like what is going on like yeah to be faster you have to be like, you gotta you
gotta do things right you know, so McDonald's taught me a lot of things you know the
fooder Okay, you know the stuff disgusting but I still I still eat it. Sometimes you know,
you know, food or Good buy like McDonald's was my first job ever, you know? It was a
great experience.
MM: Mhm. And you know, since we're talking about jobs, those the two jobs you had in
your life only or did you have more jobs?
AH: I had more jobs Yeah. And more jobs. My first wants McDonald's. Second of all was
in a gym Planet Fitness. My third job was on Costco. My first my fourth one was in is in
homecare I'm working right now and recently was a great job I love it I'm not gonna quit
anything that is a good job and I'm just like I'm done and taken care with for clients on I
have to give them meds and just watch them do it cool guys man they are independent,
they're funny, and they're making me laugh. I make them laugh. We do things in the
house. You know we clean up we know we vacuum we're cleaning you know shovel the
road. Would like our sidewalk You know, I'm saying it was it was a good you know,
those those guys are good you know the funny and I love them you know take care of
them. They're good guys.
MM: Yeah and um when we're talking about you, um what physical characteristics in do
people in your family share?
AH: so as least we mean by that?
MM: Like....people in your family like what are their characteristics?....you know like the
way you guys act I think you guys resemble each other?
AH: Well, okay. I understand now. I think it's mostly from like my dad side mostly
because like the boys I think we're just like funny cuz my dad is funny man he like he's
he's a talker. I'm not gonna lie. He's a talker and when he's Start something he he goes
he cannot stop. And you know that's one sometimes I board like when he sees friends
will check Hey dad look over there you know, Jay avoided because he talks to talks you
know my dad talk I love about that you know he's nice funny he's a target guy
sometimes you see no he's a serious man also too. So I think we get that from him. And
from the girls side I think my sister's got from my mom, you know, they my mom have
you know, she she loves fashion she loved like showing off like she, you know, she's
funny too. She's my normal mama queen. I love her. She's my queen. Like I love taking
over, you know, take it out, you know, she she likes showing off. She's funny. She's a
hard working person. I think we all think we got them from them, you know from our
brothers sisters. We got both of them, you know, half and half. got both of them.
MM: So You Think You resemble your dad and your mom also home?
AH: Yeah, yeah.
MM: That's really good. And what part did religion play in your family actually?
AH: So... uh we played we're Islams we're a Muslim family...uhm we're Muslim family
we believe in only one God in names a lot we have prophet named Mohammed
(S.A.W). So our religion is pretty is pretty strong, you know is is the most peaceful
peaceful religion and I back then I never knew was actually what is Islam you know i
and when I went that's why I went to Egypt and I wanted to know understand what is
what is like Islam but first place I actually went was Kenya but I've been there only for
two months at that point it was I really hated to Kenya I actually did. So that's why I went
to Egypt to talk about Egypt more than Kenya because Kenya was Really not my place
but the king is beautiful was not me. But Egypt was actually a strong religion and I want
to talk about it because Egypt is a religion country and I love about also to and I'm
awesome I'm a proud of Muslim I'm happy I'm happy by that I'm not I'm not gonna lie or
hide anything about it but my whole family's Muslim You know, my whole family, my
brothers sisters mother parents, the world Muslim my parents taught me about Islam
prayers, and we know what we're talking about but Ramadan we're talking about aid
and you know is so traditions you know, talk about our parents taught me about
generations, what is Ramadan? What is he What is this lamb bonus Muslim told me so
many things about my religion, that who I am right now that's why I'm standing up as a
Muslim men and you know, helping others and teaching one another in helping our
brothers and sisters, you know?
MM: Yeah. And also did you go to you know, religious services on a regular basis? You
know, in your case, a mosque?
AH: Yes, of course. Yes, of course. I have a mosque right next to my house. I pray Yes,
of course I pray but you know, slowly, slowly, slowly, you know, I'm slowly losing it, but I
want to get back up again. You know, I want to get back who I was because America is
slowing me down To be honest, man, like, I want to pray. I'm getting back up again. And
we'll start praying I'm trying to become in me, way back then. And I don't want to lose
that.
MM: That's very true. And uhm Abubakar uh, how do you actually see yourself in 10
years future?
AH: in 10 years? As the one thing I there, man I'm not God I don't know my future back
see myself right now. Probably going to help people I'm helping myself helping my
family my parents and I want to understand myself and figure out what is my major and
right now understands my majors computer science, you know, I'm doing game designs
I'm doing graphic design soldier, I'm do Web Designs, computer sciences. Me, man. I'm
doing very interesting. Well, yeah, I love tech and I am a nerd. You know, but, you
know, I want to keep doing what I'm doing a number of future futures to feature can
change, no future can change whatever path I'm going, I can change the wheel and my
future can change like an instant you know, so whatever happens happens, but I want
to make it I want to make it successful and make my parents proud and and soon later
get married man first, I gotta take care of myself before I can can't take care of someone
else. You know, you know, pay And my parents said, Oh, I want to get married. I told
him said how I can take care of someone else. But even I can take care of myself.
That's even more struggle for me. So I was like, I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go take my
time travel, I'm gonna do me, I'm gonna do my education. I'm gonna have fun. You
know, later on when I'm started getting serious. Yeah, I might find the lady I love and but
I know get down on one knee and tell her Hey, be might be my wife, you know? But
yeah. as just one step at a time, just one step at a time. It's like a ladder, you know, you
got it, you gotta, you gotta you gotta find the exit. You know, basically, you know, I'm
saying like, you have the key, but you gotta find the door to unlock it. You know, if you
even found the door and your end is the right one. I think your your life will be
successful and you may be great in your life.
MM: So which leads me to my our last question. Yeah, and you know, since
Abukar-Abubakar since you are one of the youths of this community. How do you think
you know, with these dreams you have? How do you think you will build your legacy,
you know, in the future?
AH: by bringing brothers and sisters together, you know, because I see I can see
myself. Our brothers and sisters are slowly separate and away and I don't like that. I
want to bring it back together and helping the community and bring in as one Isaac
Islam and I want to build a community. I want to make a mosque, Elena, I want to hear
a prayer. You know, I want to hear prayer from like in my house like oh, prayer time, you
know, I want to bring it I want to make a community that everyone has Peace in life and
have a successful you know, Link two together and that's what I like about it and I want
to connect you to also my Somali brothers and sisters. And you know all my brothers
and sisters going to help me Everybody else who are Lady always who's stuck in
everything else, you know? I want to bring back everything you know, I want to bring
back the community. That's what I like about and I am ready i'm, i'm i'm 100% there yet,
but I'll be ready whatever I feel I am I am ready so that's what I like about it and man I
need find the door. I need I need to find the door. I'm-I'm slowly building my community,
I want to get better. I want to extend myself first. You know, get to know me. I want to
understand I want to get better. I want to learn the community. I want help my brothers
sisters, I want to learn my education. I want to get better and smarter. And I want to take
a time I want to take us low. You know...my experience back then, you know Cairo
being like, being beaten up and like understand and like the pain and the struggle. I've
been through I want to make that to like, in like a better thing, you know, because they
taught me so many things that I could not see. But I want to help my brother sisters by
exactly what I've been through but not as beating up them. I want to just open eyes by
words by you know, energy by spirits, you know, tell them this is what the way you're
looking for, you know, and if they lost or they need help, I'm the guy that Their looking
for it and know if they need help anybody. I'm here, I got you and I understand what
you're going through. And I'm I'm here to help you know, hold your hands go from go
wherever you're going. So I'm-I'm excited and whatever it leads me to it. I'm happy I'm
here.
MM: So to wrap things up Abubakar Hassan, thank you very much for you know, joining
me for this interview. I'm very thankful for you into you know, talking to me
AH: No problem of course, thank you for inviting me and telling me t-MM: Thank you very much. You're very welcome. And uhm uh would you also consent
this interview to be posted on Augsburg archives? It will be public.
AH: Yes, yes, of course.
MM: Mm hmm. All right. Thank you very much
AH: No problem. Thank you.
Show less
Faruk Ahmed 0:01
This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22
2019. I'm here with..
Ahmed Nur. 0:13
Ahmed Nur.
Faruk Ahmed 0:15
and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little
bit more about yo... Show more
Faruk Ahmed 0:01
This is Faruk Ahmed, Oral History student at Augsburg University. The date is December 22
2019. I'm here with..
Ahmed Nur. 0:13
Ahmed Nur.
Faruk Ahmed 0:15
and uh, yeah, we'll just get into it. So, you just mentioned your name. You want to tell us a little
bit more about yourself?
Ahmed Nur. 0:23
Well, I'm Augsburg alum. Minneapolis native. lived here most of my life. I'm a Somali American.
Born in Somalia. Grew up most of my life in Minnesota in and around Minneapolis.
Faruk Ahmed 0:45
You're born in Somalia?
yeah exactly yeah, the capital city of Mogadishu
Mogadishu. Do you have any? Any memories? how old were you?
Ahmed Nur. 0:59
well i was in '93 so I really dont remember I left when I was around three or four years old? So I
was my earliest memories were of America.
Faruk 1:09
Okay, so 1996 three year old Ahmed, straight to Minneapolis or?
Unknown Speaker 1:15
no, by way of Green Bay, Wisconsin. I lived there for like six months, my family. My uncle and
his wife sponsored us. Me and my mom, my grandpa and other family members. live there for
six months, three years within we moved to Minneapolis as a family.
Faruk Ahmed 1:33
Do you? You were four and a half, maybe five when you were in green bay?
Ahmed Nur. 1:40
I was around like four years old.
Faruk 1:42
Do you have any memories, were you living with your uncle?
Ahmed Nur. 1:46
Yeah. Oh, we were all living with my uncle.
Faruk 1:49
Were there any other kids around your age?
Ahmed Nur. 1:50
Yeah, he had two children. Two girls one was a year older than me and one year younger than
me.
Faruk Ahmed 1:58
Okay.
Ahmed Nur. 1:59
that was it for the children. I was the only other child. actually me and my cousin came along
from my somalia and lived with them too.
Faruk 2:08
So you and your cousin. Do you have siblings that were born here?
Ahmed Nur. 2:11
Yeah All my siblings have four siblings. younger than me. I have 3 brothers and one sister.
Faruk Ahmed 2:18
Oh, what are their ages?
Ahmed Nur. 2:20
My brother Habib, he is 23. my brother Nurdin He's 19. my sister Amira is 18 and my youngest
brother Omar is 13
Faruk 2:33
you guys are pretty close to in age for the most part.
Ahmed Nur. 2:36
Yes, like, three ish years gap between everyone
and they were all born in Minneapolis?
Yep.
Faruk Ahmed 2:46
Okay. So what was you came to Minneapolis at what five ish, four?
Ahmed Nur. 2:51
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 2:52
Okay. What was your early life like, here?
Ahmed Nur. 2:56
early life.. just uh your typical Household nothing different. We lived in a community of a bunch
of different groups, but predominantly Somali and Hispanic people was around the
neighborhood.
Faruk Ahmed 3:18
Okay. south minneapolis?
Ahmed Nur. 3:19
Yeah, south minneapolis .
uh Yeah. So I, what was the question?
Faruk 3:27
Just your experience from when you first moved to me over the years since you're five?
Ahmed Nur. 3:31
Yeah,
Faruk Ahmed 3:32
yeah.
Ahmed Nur. 3:32
I remember having like, like going to a head start. For example. I remember having I think I had
maybe one teacher who was white, but the rest were all like either she African American,
Hispanic or Asian.
Faruk Ahmed 3:48
interesting. This is head start?
Ahmed Nur. 3:50
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 3:50
Okay. Where do you go to head start? Do you remember?
Ahmed Nur. 3:54
the one that was on by Martin Luther King park? That one.. uhh
Faruk Ahmed 4:01
On Nicollet.
Ahmed Nur. 4:02
Kind of by nicollet. Yeah. Yeah. Like down down 42nd
Faruk Ahmed 4:06
Like 42nd. yeah.
Faruk 4:11
interesting. So from head start to kindergarten, what was, did you just live in the same place?
Ahmed Nur. 4:22
around the neighborhood two times we lived on Pillsbury and some of the apartment complex.
One of my brothers was born there. And then we move to the Albright townhomes that's kind of
like half a block away and does more of a predominantly somali neighborhood because it's
closer to a somali mall. at least it was on the rise. Then it wasn't as much as higher
concentration as it is now.
Faruk Ahmed 4:53
Do you, so what was what was school like for you? So we kind of talked about head start, you
had a pretty diverse, Your teachers, the teachers were pretty diverse is not just the
predominantly white profession. Did that change as you went throughout school?
Ahmed Nur. 5:14
Kind of Yeah, so I went to from kindergarten I went to whittier actually. And I don't remember,
like kindergarten, like first grade teachers. But I assume they're white. But remember for 100%
my third grade teacher, she's, she's black. She's African American and she's one of my favorite
teachers when I was younger, she's the name is Miss Jenkins or something. And she's just very
nice person as this kind of stuck with me throughout the years.
Faruk Ahmed 5:48
were the other teachers Not nice?
Ahmed Nur. 5:49
no they were nice but she's different and it seemed like she cared a little bit more maybe she
could like, relate to us like students of color, maybe a little more.
Faruk Ahmed 5:58
were they a little nicer to you and to students of color or just nicer in general?
Ahmed Nur. 6:03
in general, because the whole like most of our class was like what he was a very diverse school
also is a lot of different groups of people from different people from African nations, African
American people, different people from different parts of Asia. A lot of Hispanic people, like I
said, from Central and South America so its a big, I wouldn't say melting pot, like a big just
diverse.
Faruk 6:37
Yeah, so schools are usually you know, they preach diversity, and some of them really are even
though you guys are fairly young. What was the interaction like between students?
Unknown Speaker 6:48
I remember fondly like my first like, my first best friend was Hispanic guy, and Jose. me and him
were really good friends. I remember having Like really close friends of all like to think about it I
don't think any like, actual like, white people like it was all like different groups of people are like
my friends are these my closer friends than I hung out with or play at the playground with
Faruk 7:19
you have you and Jose still in contact now?
Ahmed Nur. 7:21
No.
Faruk Ahmed 7:21
Yeah, that's cool time does that. So how about as you get older maybe towards a junior
high/upper middle school?
Ahmed Nur. 7:31
So yeah. So whittier I went there from kindergarten until like the first couple of days in fifth grade
and then I transferred to Cla Barton open school in southwest Minneapolis. Yeah. And that was
a little bit more of a culture change because is more, more affluent students and more. Not as
diverse but there was Diversity they're definitely not the teaching side is mainly white teachers is
what I noticed.
Faruk 8:11
So how did your experience with your student body and making friends and what not, did that
shift also with the new school?
Ahmed Nur. 8:21
Oh, not really. I think my experiences are a lot like from a young age like meeting a bunch of
different people allowed me to be able to connect with a lot of specific people and easily make
friends so I wasn't hard to get to know people really, really quick.
Faruk Ahmed 8:38
It sounds like you were open to the idea of befriending anyone; were the other students
receptive that they you know, did they reflect that like, hey, they're also willing to accept?
Ahmed Nur. 8:52
I say yes and no. I had like a kind of a weird experiences. I had sold my fifth grade teacher I
remember an area name was Mary Austin. And she was like a tyrant. She's like this very, like,
cool old white lady who definitely had a bias towards like African American kids and like she,
she does a lot more harsh. And like she she would grade us harder and like held us, She tried
to say she holds us to a higher standard, but it seems like there was a little bit like thinking back
now it seems like there's a little bit of prejudice on her behalf and she would favor the white
students and a lot of the people in the classroom were sensitive to this and kind of one more
stand-offish to the other students that were favored by the teacher.
Faruk Ahmed 9:52
Did you feel any of that? I know you've mentioned that in hindsight, you're able to look back and
really see things for what they were but were you able to
Ahmed Nur. 9:59
Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 10:00
feel it?
Ahmed Nur. 10:00
Definitely Yes.
Faruk Ahmed 10:01
As a student?
Ahmed Nur. 10:02
Yeah. And I feel like it caused me to not like that teacher shes probably like, one of the one like,
one teachers I most disliked thinking back to even like at that moment to people really didn't like
her I just then I didn't like her and even now thinking back I still am not a fan of her.
Faruk Ahmed 10:27
this is at the new school is a clara barton?
Ahmed Nur. 10:29
It is.
Okay. In grade, fifth grade?
fifth grade. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 10:33
So towards the end of your school career Have you come, Did you come across any other
teachers or like that experience anything of that sort. or was it was just smooth sailing from from
then on?
Ahmed Nur. 10:45
From there. Yeah, after fifth grade after Clara barton, I left there and I went to edina Actually, I
went to Southview middle school. And from there it was, like, even more of a culture change
because I went from like, kind of diverse classroom to like another diverse classroom. I went to
like, maybe there was like five African American people including myself, maybe five, I'll say five
to 10 in like the whole school at that when I first went there in sixth grade and and maybe like
one other somali person, so it was really different because there were, there was people I can
relate to, but most of the time I wasn't in class with them. So I'd be kind of isolated by myself.
Faruk Ahmed 11:30
This is at southview?
Ahmed Nur. 11:31
southview. Yeah, yeah.
Unknown Speaker 11:35
Did Did you and the other students, like, at what point? Did you guys see each other or talk to
each other? This is like a lunchtime thing?
Ahmed Nur. 11:44
Yeah, it'skind of a lunchtime thing or like in passing or something like that. like one of my
friends. His name is Keondre and we had a couple of classes together. And that's about it this is
in the sixth grade.
Faruk Ahmed 12:00
There wasnt really much exposure with the little group of other black kids.
Ahmed Nur. 12:06
no
Faruk Ahmed 12:06
not with each other. So you went to, Did you finish our middle school at Southview then?
Ahmed Nur. 12:13
Yes, I went 6,7,8th and then half of eighth grade, I went to Eden Prairie High School, and then
half a ninth grade. I Eden Prairie middle school and a half a ninth grade in high school. And then
I went back to Edina, the rest of my career.
Unknown Speaker 12:33
Was there. Was there a difference between Eden Prairie Middle School/High School versus
southview?
Ahmed Nur. 12:40
I say, Yeah, because when I did transfer the Eden Prairie. There was a concentration of Somali
people and black people there too. And it seemed like they were more grouped together. So like
in the classroom, I'd have maybe like, out of 20 Kids Maybe four or five of us would be black.
And so this and I know everybody like that so it just kind of made it easier
Faruk Ahmed 13:13
was your experience with schooling any different than like academically with the shift from
southview to eden prairie?
Ahmed Nur. 13:22
southview to eden prairie not as much. I feel like this shift between me middle school to I mean
from elementary to middle school and but at a high school was fine like but I feel like there was
a gap for me in elementary to middle school.
Faruk Ahmed 13:39
Oh well let's let's go back really quick then. is the shift happened when you went from Whittier to
clara barton or?
Ahmed Nur. 13:48
ya no, from i think uhh, Clara Barton or to Edina seemed like that that year I spent at Clara
Barton. I feel like I didn't progress as much as I should have. And so I was kind of behind in, like
reading level or just anything like, like, just academically than other students who were a little bit
ahead of me.
Faruk Ahmed 14:11
What do you think, if you had to point to something as the as the cause of that, you know, it
would just be like, you know, you just didn't feel like you wanted to even try it a school that really
didn't (want you)
Ahmed Nur. 14:26
I think it's a combination of that. And our like, I wasn't taught enough more Elise in the right
ways that was conducive to proper learning. Like, for example, maybe I was more of a visual
learner and she's teaching me more auditory, if thats even a word.
Faruk Ahmed 14:47
Yeah. Yeah. I get it. Interesting. You said it kind of you kind of fell back into place then through
southview?
Ahmed Nur. 14:58
Let's see. Yeah. And then also I was in my ESL classes too because I was still learning English
kind of because I was already speaking in Somalia at home and then learning English at school
so there's a little bit of conflict of like the war is kind of going on in my head confusing. Like past
tense like different words punctuation, anything like that.
Faruk Ahmed 15:24
So what is what is life like? At home? You know your family? Are you guys moving a lot? I
mean, you you switch to schools, I guess from middle school. Are you guys moving like
geographically? your family's expanding?
Ahmed Nur. 15:42
Yeah, that is expanding. Only thing we moved a couple times. But from what I The reason why I
went from Clara Barton to Edina was because I actually lived in edina for like, six to eight
months or something. And then we move back to Minneapolis. But though that was The main
reason why I was in the edina and other than that, we just moved around Minneapolis. So it
wasn't too far, like removed from maybe like, within like, five to eight miles. So it wasn't a crazy
shift environment like that.
Faruk Ahmed 16:21
That being said, How did it, How was your social life at that point with all the movement?
Ahmed Nur. 16:27
social life for me was I always got it wrong. Like I said, with people, either around the
neighborhood or I always had friends like no different places or even sports allowed me to make
friends with other people. And I didn't always need friends to because I had siblings and I had
cousins who usually live around me so I always had people to play with or always do something
with our go riding bikes or anything like that.
Faruk Ahmed 16:52
Yeah. What kind of sports are you into?
Yeah, when I was younger, I played a lot of soccer. So I played at the club level. I played in high
school. And then as I grew older, I stopped playing soccer and I started running track and cross
country.
Did you do any of these sports in high school?
Ahmed Nur. 17:13
Oh, yeah, I did. All throughout high school.
Faruk Ahmed 17:17
Which one
Ahmed Nur. 17:17
I did, I did soccer. Like my was. So I was running. I ran track from eighth grade all the way to
my senior in high school. And then I played soccer. I was playing club, a ninth grade and then
decided to try the high school team. I think my 10th grade year. I played that for actually no, my
ninth grade year. I played that for a little bit and then I quit soccer and started running cross
country because that was another fall sport. And I just did that from 10th or 11th, like halfway
through 10th grade to the rest of my senior or this month. My high school career.
Faruk Ahmed 18:02
Did you? Did you just get into track and cross country just because it was available? Or did you
feel like it was something you'd be good at? Like what kind of drew you into that?
Ahmed Nur. 18:14
Yeah, I was kind of just been like really fast as fast as a lot of kids. So especially the soccer too,
and that is that all of us do track because I can just run short distance and use my speed. And
then as I grew older, I seemed like I was doing a lot better and like the longer Sprint's and I still
had that speed, and then so my coaches convinced me to come try little distance races, and
then I started to do really well. And then they just convinced me even more to train more. And
from there, I just stopped playing soccer and just focus more on longer distance running.
Faruk Ahmed 18:53
And this is all at edina?
Ahmed Nur. 18:54
Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 18:57
So let's shift back to I guess, academic And socially what was high school like for you then?
Ahmed Nur. 19:04
Like any other high school, it was like very cliquey. But then again, you find your groups like, I
see I fit in a lot of groups like I rode the bus with all like all the African American kids from
Annapolis. So like, those are all my friends, I'm really close with them. But then again, I fit in
groups with like the athletes like the 60, like the running group, and then I had friends from track
who are in other sports so like, they'd be like the football group, so I'd be closer to some of those
guys. I'd be closest to the soccer players because they play soccer with them. As it's kind of like
that. Just just bouncing in like different groups of people like more of like, even like some of the
kids who were like loners example. They be kind of nice to themselves. I was friends with them,
just through the having to the classes with people and I feel like interacting with people was
really easy for me. So I made a lot of different friends allowed me to kind of go in and out
different friend groups.
Faruk Ahmed 20:08
Was there were there any hiccups in your, in your social life? Like were there, I don't know. I
mean, your experiences, I would want to say unique but it's not like the standard high school
experience. You know, people are usually like the clicking up is kind of something that breaks it
for them, their their high school experience, but you you're able to fit into a lot of different
groups.
Ahmed Nur. 20:35
I think. Like, at the moment, it didn't seem like anything was wrong, but I thinking back there's a
lot of like, different micro aggressions from people are just like people just like, I don't know, why
is this person acting this way, but then like thinking back on like, oh, maybe they just like felt
some type of way of me because I'm different. So there's, there's groups, obviously groups of
people that weren't fans of me so like I kind of stayed away from them or just or I just wasn't
fans of them or their views so I can just like let them do them and I just did me.
Faruk Ahmed 21:07
How was the the academic side of your high school experience with your with your teachers, I
should say, what was the experience like with your teachers at a predominantly white school?
Ahmed Nur. 21:17
It was honestly, like all white people. I don't think I had a single, like, African American teacher
in while I was at edina. I had a couple hispanic teachers, one Asian teacher, but like, all
teachers really cool is I like in high school never had a problem with any teachers. They're all
pretty chill. So my favorite teachers were, were white, and they're like, like, for example, one of
my teachers he was on my sociology teacher. He, like kind of got me more engaged,
academically saw like he's one of my favorite teachers.
Faruk Ahmed 22:02
You didn't? Did you feel any microaggressions? Like, you know, or stuff like that from the
teachers at any point?
Ahmed Nur. 22:13
No, not really.
Faruk Ahmed 22:15
Yeah. That's good.
So after high school, what was what were your plans? Were What were you hoping to do? What
did you end up doing?
Ahmed Nur. 22:30
Well, after high school. I wanted to go to college obviously, the big thing for me too, was trying
to still compete at a collegiate level for cross country and track and field. A lot of offers around
the country or just different schools. But that would have to have me move. And my parents
didn't want me to move out of state or move too far away. So I kind of made it harder on me.
Sad turned down a lot of really good offers, like lot of good schools that wanted me and then
kind of a like a last minute thing as I kept pushing it off kept trying to see what different schools
because I Augsburg was like I was like my safe like my last. Like I'd say like plan z or something
like it was like a last thing I could always fall back on. But then last minute, a school in
Wisconsin that was like 50 minutes away, convinced me my mom that was a good fit and it
wasn't too far away where I could come home whenever I wanted in River Falls, Wisconsin, so I
decided to go there for my college career. I only went there for a year and that transferred to
Augsburg.
Faruk Ahmed 23:47
what was that year like a year in a River Falls do we live in like you're living on campus?
Ahmed Nur. 23:53
Yeah, i lived on campus so it was cool. First time I've been able to live on my own. I was a pretty
independent person. It wasn't too bad for me. But it was not it was different from high school,
but the same because there was a whole bunch of white people there. But it was a different kind
of white people. It was more of like people from like, the country. So it was they had their own
different ideals kind of different look on things. So there's a little more were like in the cities, like
people who are prejudice would be more, be more not confront you as much. theyd just throw
around microaggressions are just like passive aggressive like Minnesotans, but here people are
a little more upfront with their prejudice.
Faruk Ahmed 24:48
did you have in an interaction with anything of that sort?
Ahmed Nur. 24:53
Yeah, couple different times. Yeah.
second hand witness?
No I definitely witnessed it first hand a couple times. I remember one occasion vividly. Me and a
bunch of my teammates. We went to really go to this party and go meet up with some other
friends. And we go to this house and it's like this house and it's like a car by the school. There's
a bunch of people outside. It's like doing whatever. And then we go in there. And they like the
owner, the house comes running says, Yeah, we can't come in. What do you mean? Like he
pointed to our white teammates? So yeah, we know then they can come in. And they're like, you
guys can't come in. i was like, "why" and we were like, they know us. Like you kind of know us
whats the point? and yeah, he said "but we don't really like people that color. And a lot of people
here will feel uncomfortable, with you guys here" and that guy put it in a nice way, just kind of
telling us like, get out of here. And so we left on another occasion, same kind of incident, but we
actually had guns pulled out on us telling us to leave.
Faruk Ahmed 26:06
So the first incident was that was with other students?
Ahmed Nur. 26:10
mhmm.
Faruk Ahmed 26:11
and the second?
Ahmed Nur. 26:12
The second is the same thing. It was like pretty much the same group of people I was with
almost, but the maybe like one of our team that one of our white teenagers with us, but the rest
of us were, two somali guys, three African American guys, and then one white guy, and they
pointed the gun at us and told us to get the fuck out of here. sorry about my language.
Faruk Ahmed 26:38
Nah its cool.
What did you guys make of the first one versus the second one?
Ahmed Nur. 26:46
The first one was like whatever I all they're like they're just hating on us like just because just
because you know, our skin tone but then like the other occasion. We just it was It's almost
surreal just because we were like that really happened because you don't really like run into that
situation every day was like you kind of just like confused with it just shock I didn't think it
actually happened. Like say like dreaming or something. I was like a figure of my immagination
like was he really holding a gun like It was like this is weird situation. Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 27:24
it's it's Yeah, I can't imagine how surreal it would be for somebody to threaten your life because
they don't like your that you're black or your skin tone. Was that one of the one of the factors of
you wanted to come back to Minneapolis or come to augsburg or go to augsburg. Was that kind
of like you're already on your way out of there.
Ahmed Nur. 27:53
Yeah, I was already kind of on my way out of there because I was dealing with that same kind of
BS on the team Because..
Faruk Ahmed 28:01
within your track team?
Ahmed Nur. 28:04
my cross country here because like it seemed like the the other only the older white guys really
were like together and they really just like excluded us because we were the more talented
younger and darker people on team and so they kind of i feel like they're they're envious of us,
yes but they also just didn't like how we did things because we're we came in we were a little
more like not me exactly like some other teammates. Everybody was confident was confident in
their abilities, but like some other teammates were a little more braggadocious they were like
more out there and vocal about their, about their abilities and how they're really the best on the
team. So they deserve more respect and a lot of other guys didnt really like that.
Faruk Ahmed 29:07
How did they respond?
Ahmed Nur. 29:09
Uh, we never really were confronted like that except, like, more like nonverbal things are like,
they talked to the coaches and the coaches would come talk to us and tell us things like second
hand. But there was one incident of like one of the captains he was his really intoxicated one
day after a race one night after he said, he was kind of like, was like venting to all of us saying
like how he does because we're we're so cocky we think we know it all. This that this and he, at
one point to one of my teammates was, was like, I think he's recently said he's like, to quote him
he was like; "my nigga why are you saying this" and the guy was like, the white guy was like
"what? did you just call me a nigger" and like he just kind of like started going off and started
using out like start using the N word towards that teammate of mine and so that's kind of like
fractured the relationship even more between like us younger guys and the older guys
Faruk Ahmed 30:27
How did your your teammate respond to the you from teammate repeating the N word at him?
Ahmed Nur. 30:37
How did he respond?
Faruk Ahmed 30:40
was there like a physical?
Ahmed Nur. 30:41
oh no there's was nothing physical is all verbal but was like yelling and then like the day after, or
if the next time you have practice when you like he apologize and everything he's like, oh, that
wasn't me, like trying to like mend, like men the fence like mend the relationship. But like once
that line is crossed, kind of like you can't really go back. You know, he, like the saying goes like,
was this like a, like a drunk person always, like speak like the truth or something like that but
Faruk Ahmed 31:12
yeah, I've heard what youre talking about. Yeah.
So the transition from UW River Falls was going to happen.
Yeah, for me for me. Yeah, because I thought I didn't really like it There just and I just wanted to
go back to Minneapolis because it's just, it is rather be at home and go to school and like, save
some money too. And I was still in contact with the coach that was at Augsburg at the time. And
he was like, Yeah, I would love to have you here. And then literally one day in the summer, he
just like, one day I was like I said, tickler falls next day everything was gone. Like in three days. I
changed schools and then like on that third day I reported for training camp and my my new
team It was like out of the blue like that
so the transition was smooth then.
Ahmed Nur. 32:12
Yeah, yeah, that's pretty sweet.
Faruk Ahmed 32:14
What was so how was your experience at augsburg.
Ahmed Nur. 32:21
Augsburg really it was really cool vibe. I really liked it because I already knew people who were
here. It was a tight knit community small is very diverse. Is has its own problems but like it
wasn't as noticeable as like other places. But I liked the team. I liked the coach a lot. The team
was cool. Campus. I liked how, where it was located. I have access to a lot of things. I can live
at home as a 10 min drive to to school. I could work, i could still goto practice and I like it was no
problem
Faruk Ahmed 33:04
well its interesting you mentioned it augsburg having its own problems like what you talked
about like athletics were you talking about just the school like your experience at the school I
mean you don't have to get too deep into if you don't want to but anything that you don't want to
but I just find it interesting that you that's one of the things that you mentioned.
Ahmed Nur. 33:24
Yeah. no, it has on problems in terms of like there's still people who have prejudice towards like
other groups of people whether it's like race our religion for or anything like that. Like I had a
teammate this this girl actually she she was a really really big conservative I she was a nice girl
like no problems at all but like she had like these very, very far right views and then she would
like Like talk about her views a lot. And like, like one of the wildest things she said to me was
he's talking about how Ronald Reagan was the best thing to ever happen to like America. And
like looking back in history, and that is definitely wrong and like, kind of a problematic statement
to say. And she like, and I was another teammate of mine to a guy, same kind of thing that was
from the south. And he also had this kind of same ideals and the, they just were more like, the
guy was more abrasive, and they were just kind of like, spew their own ideology, and just kind of
like, try to work people up sometimes. I see a few things. And people try to brush it off. And I've
confronted him a couple times and like they stop saying, like, over time. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 34:58
Were there any other like athletes of color. black? you know, on the team on the track team?
Ahmed Nur. 35:05
Yeah on the team. So when I first came, there's only one black as one only one African
American person on the team. I listened to cross country to it when I joined. Also, my friend also
joined who's also Somali. So the three of us. And then the track team is different because
there's more African American people on the team, but the cross country team, there's only us
three. And then as like, I went throughout my career, like every year, I'd like to still be in contact
with some of the people I used to compete against, like one of my friends ended up going to
River Falls because he thought we were going there because he wanted to be with us. And then
so he got stuck there for a year. And so he also transferred to Augsburg and as well as another,
somali guy on the team and then over time like it got more diverse because people start seeing
us there and they kind of like; we kind of pulled them in and they just came here.
Faruk Ahmed 36:16
Did your friend and then teammate who went to River Falls first and then transferred over,
Ahmed Nur. 36:22
Yeah
Faruk Ahmed 36:23
was his experience that you could you guys speak about
Ahmed Nur. 36:25
he had the same experience. Yeah.
Faruk Ahmed 36:27
yeah.
So you did you end up finishing your undergrad here at augsburg?
Ahmed Nur. 36:36
Yep, yep. Yep. Finished in 2016
Faruk Ahmed 36:40
would you share your major?
Ahmed Nur. 36:43
Oh yeah. I saw I had I got data management major with the marketing minor.
Faruk Ahmed 36:50
was, was augsburg like for you socially, academically?
Ahmed Nur. 36:57
Academically is really cool. At first. I can augsburg wanting to do secondary education and
sociology so I took as taking some social classes my first semester augsburg and met some like
really cool people, some really cool teachers. I met this one teacher His name is Lars
Christiansen is really like trendy dude who always dresses nice he like he's really cool guy
always bikes to school, like doesn't matter the weather. So he kind of like he really like kind of, I
think he embodied what Augsburg was and how like pretty inclusive of a School it is. and he
kind of preached being close with everybody like doesn't matter the ethnicity, nationality, the
religion, the gender, anything like that so its like, is cool to see that and so this was refreshing
and honestly at augsburg I don't think I had a bad teacher like as a; when I transferred to the
business side also had some great teachers to like I had one teacher John Cerrito he's well
known in the business department he's he's a really fun guy like he's very relatable and like he
really gets to know you as a person and I all my teachers like it I really liked augsburg because
it was like the class size was so small the teacher can really get to know you they can build a
relationship with the teacher so I really had relationships with my all my teachers to the point
where like I can have like that like know them like on a first name basis or I could go drop into
their office and we don't even sometimes have to talk about schoolwork we just like catch up by
anything.
Socially, same kind of thing like as I be like this still like groups of people, you know, like hang
out with each other. But like going to the lounge was it was cool big. The nice thing with his
meeting all these people and then being different groups to allowed me to meet different people,
like, PASU, the Pan Afrikan Student Union I was on I was part of it from the beginning when I
was at Augsburg, and towards the end, I was Augsburg. I was a PR officer. And then I also then
became the vice president. And so I met a lot of had relations with a lot of the students of color
at Augsburg.
Faruk Ahmed 39:36
Do you have any, if you were to give advice to in an upcoming or incoming freshman, cross
country student from let's say, edina, what would you would you share with them?
Ahmed Nur. 39:57
I probably share with the biggest things Time management, because everybody wants to come
to college, you're going to have more free time than your, the you know what to do with. So that
free time is what's going to like, make or break you academically and socially. So if you, for
example, use all your free time socially, your academics is gonna go down with you all your free
time academically, your social life might go down. So it's kind of having to find the balance. And
it's hard yet but you just have to find your your routine as a big thing. And finding a group of
people that you feel close to, or connected to. It's going to make things a lot easier because for
example, studying you know, you might start taking classes with some nice people, but getting
to know people around classes, because you're going to have to see them later on like,
especially in the same majors, you can help each other out with different homework or studying
for exams or anything. So just building those relationships is key. And keeping that in mind
trying not to burn too many bridges. Or, and yeah just be mindful of your surroundings because
you have to always be like on your 10 toes because you can actually expect anything to
happen. Whether academically socially, or just any day. you know?
Faruk Ahmed 41:37
what's next for Ahmed?
Ahmed Nur. 41:40
for me? For Ahmed? Oh, that's a good question, man. I'm trying to figure that out. Hopefully
finding the career path that I like starting our business starting a family Yeah, just the Typical
dream.
Faruk Ahmed 42:06
so I want to finish up with you kind of giving me an overview of your experience as a Muslim
growing up and coming through like you know go with your education and whatnot so from like
maybe your first maybe like you know when when you first noticed that people did not really like
you know, your your faith or do not have did not align with their beliefs and whatnot, and how
that kind of if that's something that followed you, yeah, just an overall view of your experience.
Ahmed Nur. 42:56
Thinking Back I've always got just like remarks like like people ask what I'm doing when I'm
praying especially at school I see someone sees me in a corner praying or someone sees me in
classroom praying they just just very confused. I've had the the people tapping on your shoulder
asking What are you doing?But thinking back it.. high school, no problems really with as as
being Muslim. In high school, I saw the problems more being this black. And as I grew older, it it
kind of morphed into also being Muslim was viewed wrong. Because like all of that high school,
my cross country team was very was very willing to work with me and my religion, especially
during Ramadan, um, like my coaches Allow me to practice at different times or if I come in and
like they'd have they had me come in earlier than or morning practice like when this before the
sun goes up the have some food ready for me or I have an evening practice. And right after I hit
the showers and they didn't have some food ready for me, or they had some drinks ready for me
or something. So they're very they're, they're willing to work with me. As it grew older. My
experiences changed a little bit because I was like, the people around me were mainly black
Muslims, so like Somali people, either like Ethiopian people or people like that. Like those are
the kind of people that are around me, like my, my mosque and so I never really saw a
difference until I got older and seeing the different type of I was a prejudice but like people Just
kind of like demean black Muslims leave I see like, people were from like Arab countries they
think a little more highly of themselves. I never had any instances, but I've heard from my
friends like different problems at a different mosque or just like like, like you can be praying next
to someone to be in line with someone and like you're supposed to keep a straight line like toes
are supposed to be touching like people and like some some other Muslim people would not let
a black person like foot touch their foot. And like that's a very backwards way of thinking
because this is a religion that preaches oneness and brother brotherhood, like everyone is
supposed to be in this together and have no ill will but like this was.. uh.. im kind of lost for
words.
Unknown Speaker 46:06
I see what you mean, kind of like you know no one's above no nationality no race is above the
other.
Unknown Speaker 46:11
exactly like only person who is above everybody else's god you know like mean Who are you to
belittle someone else so that's that's something I I've noticed like I said it hasn't happened to me
but like people around me have told me about situations like this and you see online like on
Twitter for example you can see these these these lands are Shiekhs talking about different
things are like people are always trying to pray for like Arab countries, for example that need aid
and like raising aid for them as Yeah, they do need aid, they do need to help. But there's also
countries where there's black Muslims that need the help too I'm not just gonna say Somalia
because I'd be bias on my end but is this black Muslims like being like enslaved in Libya for
example that's not getting any coverage people aren't worrying and people aren't bringing
awareness to it really. You see it here and there but like, you see black it being bought all over
like North Africa and in the Arab countries. And this is very sickening to see that this religion is
so beautiful, being twisted like this. And just because of the skin color, like we are all supposed
to be in this together and fearing God, but this is a sad see. But at my age right now 26 years
old, I guess I had no real problems. With like another like Muslim person for example, but you
know, if you've had you get those like, you know, on a Friday prayer, I'll be like wearing a
Khamiis or something. Like, in when I was younger I've had like, people make comments. So
like, what does that dress you're wearing? Like so some people are ignorant to that like that. But
their ignorance comes from like misinformation or just being misguided by the media or just not
knowing, you know. So I've told people that like, this is not a dress, this is like religious garb like
tell them the significance behind it. And I'd be like, I tell them to say, if someone's walking in a
kilt, would you be like Oh, nice dress, because I know you understand the, the this cultural
significance behind the kilt. So why can't you understand the cultural significance behind
Khamiis. and Um, being Minneapolis and with so many somali people Being here. I feel like
we've been targeted on multiple fronts. On one front being black actually like a moderate one for
being black and another front being Muslim, and then another front being Somali. So that's like
this three things someone who is a racist could attack me on my religion, my nationality and my
my ethnicity. And so this is this is weird. Grow like this is a weird place to grow up in especially
now that I'm older I can see like I know the people who are younger than me something to have
to go through like my siblings telling me about a school how people are, are are standing up and
actually be more vocal about their their their hate for some odd people or their hate for Some
people more than you see them. Speaking of about someone being black, for example, so you
see more hate based on that same just had a story of mine. I just lost my train of thought.
Faruk Ahmed 50:20
That's cool. We can be back here to let,
Ahmed Nur. 50:25
actually I guess I could talk about growing up to like, it's understandable like, hate coming from,
like, let's say a person who like a Caucasian person because they don't have the the right I'm so
different from them. But growing up also there was hate from African American people like black
African American people, people who are native to the US, you know, so looking at like, if you
see me and a black person, I go after mega person, we are the same person. We were the
same, like there shouldn't be any distinction between us. But growing up, especially when I was
younger, I felt like I had to fight for my blackness because people wouldn't say No, you're not.
You're not black, you know, you're you're African, there's difference. There's difference. And
reality there really isn't. Like, we all come from the same area, like we are from the same
continent. Like you, your family might have your lineage, your immediate needs might be here,
or my immediate lineage might be there. There's there's no difference but it's just I don't know
where this is the virus coming from maybe I don't know. It's, there's a term I remember. reading
about the like the crab effect. I don't know if you heard about it?
Faruk Ahmed 51:59
crabs in a bucket?
Ahmed Nur. 52:00
exactly crabs in the bucket. You know they're they're trying to breathe the air so they're pulling
people down or the crabs down around them stretch to get to the top. So I feel like that's
something that kind of happens in our community and so people are putting each other down
trying to elevate themselves when we should be elevating of each other.
Faruk Ahmed 52:23
Yeah Why do you Why do you think that is? Why do you think there's such a? You know, I've
gotta go get it I've gotta go get it and pull down whatever it is, is keeping me from it. What do
you think that kind of stems from?
Ahmed Nur. 52:37
You know, I honestly don't know. I've like tried to like rationalize this many times trying to think
through was like, What causes you know, someone to, like think like this, you know, like, this is
maybe some of the way the way they were raised or like you know, I is this is very, it's very
confusing. Maybe it's poverty maybe?
Faruk Ahmed 53:10
I, that's kind of what I kind of gear towards, like, you know, the resources in these communities
that are, you know, predominantly black, you know, with people of color, there's just such a
gross lack of; you know, that it does become a, a fight for survival. You know, you have all these
people, all these different groups of people who are all fighting to survive with with crumbs, you
know, given to them by, you know, the predominately white run society, the society that benefits
you know, not people of color. So, that's that's kind of what I've kind of geared towards the
answer, you know, I mean, but definitely I also and somali person do recall some of the The
clashing and the conflicts betweenAfricans and like migrant Africans and African Americans.
Yeah, did you this was so much more so your, your, your younger life or is that something that
continues, you know, to this day for you?
I haven't seen as much recently but like, I see it online like other people I hadn't discussions,
you know, like it and you can even dive deeper into it, not just the, the, the discussion between
being African and African American, you know, but then like, diving deep into it also like African
people are have like a some somewhat of a more of a superiority complex because, you know, I
might be from West Africa and I think that people from East Africa or less Africa than I am
because of data Like there the slave trade was more prevalent in the West than the East for
example, and you guys didn't struggle like we struggled but all together like it's you kind of
understand what im trying to say? I'm kind of I'm a little I just got stuck lost my train of thought.
But.
we could be done? what do you think?
you could take that little part its just i dont know kind of just like
that part? yeah.
Well that's all I have for you. is there anything you'd like to add?
Ahmed Nur. 55:51
nothing really you know, peace, love and positivity.
Faruk Ahmed 55:55
Alright man, I appreciate you.
Ahmed Nur. 55:56
Yeah, see you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Ruth 0:01
My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for
the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with
with saying your name and when and where you were born?
Aisha 0:15
My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born Augu... Show more
Ruth 0:01
My name is Ruth Telleria and today is December 8, 2019. And this is an oral history for
the Muslims in Minnesota project and I'm here with Aisha Sow. Um, can you start with
with saying your name and when and where you were born?
Aisha 0:15
My name is Aisha Sow, and I was born August 26th, 2001. I don't remember the exact
city I was born but I was born here in Minnesota, around Riverview or...Riverview, yeah.
Riverview, Minnesota.
Ruth 0:32
Okay. And, um, have you lived in Minnesota your whole life?
Aisha 0:38
Um, for the majority of my life, I have lived in Minnesota, but from when I was nine
months, all the way till I was about to turn four, I went—my parents took me to Guinea,
their home country, in West Africa.
Ruth 0:56
Okay. Okay. Um, so, just tell me a little bit about your family and their background.
Aisha 1:03
Um, so my immediate family is my dad, my mom, and I have an older brother, and then
it's me and then my younger brother. I'm a year and a half difference between me and
my older brother, and seven year difference with my younger brother. And then my
mom's, um, two sisters. They—they lived with us until her youngest sister got married
10 years ago, and moved to New York, but her other sister is still living with us. And
then, my—both of my parents come from big families. My dad is one of 27 siblings, and
my mom is the second oldest of seven. So yeah.
Ruth 1:48
Okay. Um, so...um, before we, um, before this interview we talked and you mentioned
that your parents are immigrants from West Africa. So, do you know anything about
their experience with immigrating to the United States? And what that was like?
Aisha 2:05
I wouldn't say that I know detail for detail, but I do know that, um—so my dad, he kind of
left Guinea at 14 years old and then went to study at a boarding school in Sierra Leone
for like seven years. And then after that, he got accepted into a university in Saudi
Arabia, where he learned, um, where he got a degree in the Arabic language, and he
learned a lot about, like, Islam and things like that. And so when he was in Saudi
Arabia, my—um, he applied for my mom to come to the US. And so there is a visa
lottery. I don't know the exact name for it. And so he applied my mom for it and she was
able to win that lottery. And that's how they came to the US. And so also with like, their
experience, I guess I could say that they experienced a lot of, like, struggle at firs
because when they first moved here, they had to lived in like a cramped apartment with
like six or seven other people and being like newly married, that's like, [laughter] that's
not that great. And then, um, then they had me and my older brother, and so my parents
at some point were both working two jobs just to—to try and, um, make money for us.
And then, also, that was when my mom, uh, she was going to school. And it was her
mother that went and advised her that she should continue her schooling. And so that's
why, um, me and my older brother were sent back home to Guinea, because her
mother said that she would be able to take care of us and then it's when she died, that
my mom came back for us.
Ruth 3:54
Okay. Um, and so, what—how long ago did they come here? What year was it?
Aisha 4:01
They came here, I believe, 1999.
Ruth 4:08
Okay.
Aisha 4:09
Yeah, around there because they got married 1998.
Ruth 4:14
Okay. Um, so, um, do you remember anything about being in Guinea when you were
younger?
Aisha 4:21
It's sad to say no, I don't remember. I wish I would have stayed there longer to have
some memories because I was quite young when I came here. And also, um, I learned
in my psychology class that the age that I came here, my brain was deciding for me
what memories I should keep and what language I should keep. So when I first came
back to the US, I had to, like, re-learn English so I could go to, um, preschool, and then
that's how, um, I sort of forgot how to say and speak some things in my language. So
it's been like a learning process for me in a way.
Ruth 4:59
Okay. So, um, so, English is not your first language?
Aisha 5:04
No, but my parents would say otherwise. [laughter]
Ruth 5:08
Um, so another question I have is, um, so you mentioned that, um, you started wearing
a hijab, um, when you were almost eleven years old?
Aisha 5:22
Yes.
Ruth 5:22
So is eleven the average age Muslim girls start wearing a hijab? Um, and if not, when is
that? When is the average age that they start writing a hijab?
Aisha 5:34
Um, so for me personally, I would say that hijab and the overall section--spectrum—with
Muslims here today is there's no really specific average age that everybody puts on a
hijab. But I guess I could say that, like, it's more implemented on girls to wear hijab by
the time that they hit their puberty. Because in Islam, it's considered that oh, um, that's
when you start, uh, when if you do sin they start counting against you. So from puberty
and like younger than puberty, it doesn't count. But once you like get your first, um,
menstrual cycle, then it counts for you. So that's why a lot of parents would go and ask
their daughters to wear hijab or girls themselves would choose to wear hijab. For me
personally, my story with hijab was that, um, my mom used to wear hijab, but I
wouldn't—uh—but she would say that she wasn't wearing it to like the fullest, fullest
extent that hijab was supposed to be weared. And so it was, um, around like my 11th
birthday when she came up to me and she was just like, "Oh, do you wanna try out
something with me and like, wear the hijab with me?" And so in that moment, I thought it
would be like a fun thing to do. So then, uh, me and her both decided to wear it. And so
she told me If I didn't like it, I could take it off. So, so far I still haven't taken it off. So I
guess that's a good thing.
Ruth 7:06
Okay. So, your mom, um, so, she started wearing one later?
Aisha 7:15
Um, I would say, like, she—she kinda wore it in a turban style, I would say like in her
early 20s that she was wearing it. But it wasn't until like she hit her, um, her early 30s
that she actually started wearing it, um, to its fullest extent.
Ruth 7:35
Okay.
Um, so, another question I had is, uh, how did you feel when you first started wearing
the hijab?
Aisha 7:45
It was, um—
I guess my experience with it is different in a way because right when I started wearing
my hijab, a week or two later is when I went to my boarding school. So I was in sixth
grade my first year there, so, in my boarding school, it was just all girls and were—we
were all Muslim and everything. And we really did go outside and things like that,
because we already had like a basketball court and like a big parking lot area to like,
hang around with. So we never really like ventured outside into the—with like everybody
else. So it was like a very like closed environment. So I guess I could say my first
moments wearing hijab were good. But then after I left my boarding school, it was a
struggle in the sense that I didn't—I never faced wearing hijab in public around so many
people who weren't Muslim. And so having to deal with that, and like an identity crisis
issue and like also like, um, uh,, how I wanted to dress and how I wanted to be seen by
people. That was the thing that I struggled the most, I guess you could say my
experience wearing hijab.
Ruth 9:02
Um, so—
when—so what, like, what was that like? Um, you said, like, you know, um, worrying
about like wearing a hijab with other people that don't like, like—how did you feel about
that?
Aisha 9:15
Um..So I came—I left my boarding school, um, the summer of seventh grade. And so
then that was going to—I was gonna to be going into eighth grade. And so I was already
kind of nervous because my parents moved. So I was already in a new school district,
and I didn't know anybody and then wearing hijab outside for the first time, and in a way,
like, all the stuff that I learned in the boarding school about being modest and things like
that, I tried to integrate it while I was going to school, but then I—I just felt like a—a vibe
of isolation that people were—uh, were trying to push on me. No one was, um,
directly—uh, what's it called? No one was directly saying, “Oh, I don't like you. And I
don't like the fact that you're Muslim” or anything like that. It was more that I felt like a
sense of like, people didn’t wanna be around me, especially for example, when I had
gym class. And in gym class, you're required for like participation and things like that.
And so every time we had to do a—a class activity, like football or basketball or things
like that, there would be team captains and people would be choosing others or we
have to get into a partner. And I remember I had such a hard time getting a partner that
I had to go to the gym teacher and tell him, “Could you assign someone to be my
partner?” because I don't know. Nobody wants to be around me. And then there was
another instance when we were playing football and it was—I wouldn’t say that I'm the
best person at playing football, but at least I wanted to participate. But no one will throw
the ball to me. And I was like, How am I supposed to get my participation points if no
one wants to let me in. And so in a way, I had to make my own, um, space. I had to
venture out for myself. And I remember my eighth grade French teacher, I would always
confide in her when I was struggling, and she would tell me, you know, you have to be
able to put yourself out there, even if it's scary. And so I didn't really do that that much in
eighth grade, like, in a way that some of the ways that I put myself out there was, um,
being more outspoken in class and trying to like, find friends—a good number of friends
that I could like count on. But it was when I entered in ninth grade that I became, like
really active in clubs and things like that.
Ruth 12:00
Okay. Yeah. Um, that’s terrible that those things happened. That’s not good. Um, so,
um, another question is, how do you feel now wearing your hijab?
How do you feel about it?
Aisha 12:15
I honestly love my hijab. Some days we fight because it makes my head look a little
weird, but that's okay. But the true essence and spirituality that I get from wearing my
hijab, I guess is the best part because honestly, if I were to take it off now, I feel like I
would be losing a part of my identity. Like sometimes even in my house, when I can
take off my hijab in my house but sometimes I like the fact that like something is
covering me because I'm so used to...used to wearing it for majority of the day because
I'm not at home for majority of the day. So I—I love my hijab, and I love what it
represents to me. And I just feel like this and my hijab has allowed me to find, um, a
sense of contentment with my spirituality and religion.
Ruth 13:12
Yeah. Any more details about that?
Aisha 13:14
Um...I don't know, I guess it's been a long journey of just trying to find self discovery
within myself. Because even when I felt like I was going through this identity crisis, I
never really blamed it on my hijab. It was more that I blamed it on my lack of self
confidence to be able to, um, love myself within my own skin. Because when I was
younger, I never wore hijab and I dealt with, um, self confidence issues, especially
being one of the only black kids in a predominantly white school. So it was hard to
navigate that. And then just to throw on top—on top of it, not only are you one of the
lowest minorities in your school, but now you're also a part of another minority because
of the fact of your religion. And then it was also...um, I also, in a way had to force
myself, um...how do I say this? I had to force myself out of being in my insecurities,
because I knew I wouldn't be able to be the best person I could be academically and
socially and personally, in my own opinion, um—I'm sorry, this is hard to put into words.
But it was...um...I just had to find a way to make sure that I was confident in myself but
also enough where I could be able to express myself in a way that I wasn't, um,
taking away the true essence of my hijab, if that makes sense.
Ruth 15:04
Yeah. Okay. Um, so you mentioned earlier that you went to an Islamic boarding school,
for sixth and seventh grade. Um what, what are some experiences from that?
Aisha 15:16
Oh, my God. I loved that boarding school. [laughter] I really loved it, because I—I felt
like I was isolated in, um, regular public school since of the fact that I did have self
confidence issues and I was also one of the only black people in that school, uh, school.
So being in an environment where not only it was all girls, but then they’re all Muslim,
and there's a—they're all from different areas of the world. And it was majority Indian
Pakistani, but we had a few people who had, um, Arabic descent and then...and then
there is me who is West African. Um, I’m trying to remember who else...Oh there was
also people who were Bosnian, uh, from, um, Kosovo from like that European area. So
that was interesting. I...I really enjoyed my time there because I felt like I found a
sisterhood within all them. There was some older girls, some of the oldest were like 28.
And then I was one of the youngest, I was 11. And, well, there was another girl who was
younger than me, but she wasn't, um, old enough to enter into the actual school
because she had...she had to be 11 and she was 10. But some of the experiences I
remember is that every time during lunch, all of us would go outside into the parking lot,
and we would play, um, kickball and I remember how much fun that was, or we would
play basketball and just enjoying that sisterhood with them. And then the—in the
weekends when all the commuter students weren’t there, and all of us girls that were
dorming there would just hang out in somebody's room and just like stay up late at night
and eat snacks and talk. And I remember, um, there was no technology allowed. There
was like no things as like TV or anything like that. And they had a rule that you couldn't
have any type of smartphone, it had to be like an mp3 player or stuff like that. And I
remember all of us younger girls would go and try to sneak for the Wi-Fi password, and
we would try to hide our phones and everything, and then our phones got taken away
then we couldn't see them until like, the end of the year, but... [laughter]
Ruth 17:50
Oh my gosh.
Aisha 17:50
it was...it was fun. Um, I, um...what is it? There was also some things I didn't like about
it. For one, there was also a girl who used to bully me there. And it wasn't...I guess it
was just like bullying that happens with your age group. And I think in a way, it was...it
was like a lesson of trying to teach me that I need to be able to be strong for myself.
And so me and her have talked about it and we’ve like both forgiven each other, but that
was like one of my experiences that I look back that I'm just like, wow. I never see it as
like a painful...painful experience even though I felt like I went through a lot of pain in
those moments. But now I just look at it as like a memory in the past that it—it hasn't
really affected me in any way. And, um, I've just been lucky to meet some of those girls
there. Sometimes I still message them on Snapchat, and it's so fun to see them on their,
like, Snapchat stories. A lot of them got married and some of them have kids now, some
of us are going to college and some of us moved out of the country. So it's—it's been
fun. I really enjoyed it.
Ruth 19:07
That's good.
Uh, so...um, what were...
Um, what were your classes like? Or anything else...?
Aisha 19:21
My classes at the boarding school?
Ruth 19:23
Yes.
Aisha 19:24
Um, it—it was different in my first year and my...and my second year. In my first year,
we actually had, um, like classrooms that we have here now. We had classrooms like
that. So I would take, um, I had an English teacher, I had a science teacher, and I had a
math teacher. And then we had, um, the boarding school’s like curriculum where we
had to take Arabic classes and we also had to do, um, Qur’an memorization classes. So
there's things like that. Did we take history? I think the language arts teacher and the
history teacher were the same people because I can't remember if we did history, but
yeah, so we did classes like that. And so it was kind of different programs in the sense.
There was two programs that they offered at the school being like the Alima course and
the Hidfh course. So the Hidfh course was more like you're learning a lot about Islam
and like you're—you're not only learning about like the Arabic language, but it's like
grammar and how to read it and things like that. And then you learn about the history of
Islam and people and like what they—what works, they've done, so a lot of the older
girls were doing classes like that. And then like the rest of us who were still in high
school, we were doing the HIF program which was centered around memorizing, uh,
Qur’an, but we also had secular studies like math, science, and English. And then for
my second year, some things changed, instead of having like face to face teachers we
did online. And that was kind of bad. Because, uh, I don't think anybody was able to
learn well in that way, because you kind of had to sit there for almost like a good three
to four hours just looking at a screen and trying to pay attention, even myself, like I
would write down notes and things like that. And then we would get our tests back and
whew, it would be rough. So then our teacher, she—the one who was supposed to be
monitoring us—she had an administration feature or whatever that allowed her that if we
failed the test, that she could allow us to retake it again. So that's how we passed our
classes.
Ruth 21:51
Okay. That’s—that’s good. Um, anything else you'd like to add about that?
Aisha 21:56
Um, I do remember a lot of us, like when they got the computers in the second year,
some girls would go and try and sneak onto the computers at night just to go on the
internet and then they had to lock the doors of the computers were in. So that—there
was some really interesting stuff that happened there.
Ruth 22:19
Yeah. So was it a smaller school or like how many, like
how many students?
Aisha 22:26
Okay, this is hard, but I think about for the dorming students, I guess there was about
24 to 30 of us, because the school in and of itself was already small. I think it used to be
like an old warehouse or auto shop, but it was really tiny. And then, um, and then the
dorm, uh, the commuter students, I don't know how much they were, but I think maybe
we got 50 plus the 50 for...throughout...for the whole school. But us dorming was about
like 24 to 30. And some people would drop in the middle of the year and some people
would come in the middle of the year. So it always changed.
Ruth 23:07
Okay, okay. And so...um,
another question I have is, how are you involved with your faith? Right now?
Aisha 23:16
Do you mean like, um, activities in the community or in like my daily life?
Ruth 23:22
Um, well, first like community, I guess.
Aisha 23:24
Oh. in the community. Let's see, I used to be a lot more active after I came out of my
boarding school than I am currently, I'm trying to improve that but we haven't gotten
there yet. Um, so some ways that I've been, um, involved in the community...in eighth
grade, I remember when I used to go to a Saturday and Sunday school to memorize the
Qur'an and there would be flyers for, um, events. Like there was this one organization
called Al Maghrib, and it catered to people around the United States and different
countries and they would bring in, um, experts and like speakers and scholars and you
would go there. They’d be teaching specific topics like every three months that they
came and you were there for like a weekend learning or on rare occurrences there was
like a double weekend where sometimes they just came on one day to like do like a
story night. So I remember when I—when my cousin introduced me to that I really liked
it. So I used to do volunteering for them a lot. So I used to be an usher. I would help
people on which way was the bathroom and how to get into the—the classroom and
um, seating and things like that. And then I think I did a little bit of registration and then I
switched to food and food was hectic, because everybody comes during the break times
and then-[sneezes] Excuse me.
Um, counting all that money and everything was hectic. So I did that. And then there
was another organization called Pearls of Hope. And it—and it was run by the founder,
a sister Danielle. And so it was catering to young Muslim girls here specifically in
Minnesota. And we did, um... We had talks about like Islam and things like that. And
then we do activities and it was just more of a way to bring Islam about our lives and like
create a sisterhood. And so they had, um, events, like for example, we had swimming
events because for Muslim women, it's hard to go out to the beach and to the pool and
just like swim because like, you know, covering your body and everything. So some of
the events that they would have would be to rent out a water park. And we could go and
just swim there. So I was a part of volunteeing events for that. And then we made our
own little prom. We called it the Pearls Prom, so I used to help set up and things like
that. At one point, my sister Danielle asked us—some of us older girls—to go and teach.
My cousins were able to do it but I wasn't able to because of, like, schedule conflict.
Um,’and there was also another organization called Building Blocks of Minnesota, and
they just go around helping people who just newly became Muslim. And they do, uh,
projects around this...uh, Minnesota for, um, helping feed—uh, feeding the homeless,
um, canning food items to send it to people in need and they do a bunch of other stuff
so I dabbled in that. And then also like my Saturday and Sunday school, I would help
my teacher help people to memorize Qur’an so I did—I did some of those things. And
then once like junior year and senior year hit it was—I was going through a lot of stress
in that moment to be able to continue to doing all those things, but I hope to do it in the
future.
Ruth 27:03
Yeah, that’s cool. Um, so what does being Muslim mean to you?
Aisha 27:11
We have a lot of things. [laughter]
Um, what are...
I don't know, I'm still trying to figure that answer out because, you know, experts or
scholars in the religion go and say, this is this is—this is the criteria of what Islam should
mean to a Muslim. And then I speak with, uh, young Muslim people that are around my
age and then older Muslim people, and it just varies, but I think what it means to be a
Muslim to me is just finding contentment with all the things that I've been blessed with
and all the things that I haven't been blessed with because in a way, that's a blessing in
itself because one thing I brought up earlier about my self confidence issues. It always
made me feel like I was never enough, that I was never doing enough for myself,
especially with like familial expectations and school expectations and friendships and,
um, religious expectations. So when the identity crisis that I was talking about after I
came from my boarding school, it was—it was a point where I felt really low in my
spiritual life, because I felt like at one point, I wasn't doing it to better myself. I was just
doing it because there was people there that kept asking, mainly my parents, they're
just like, “Why don't you pay anymore? Why don't you do this?” But it was...it was hard
to explain my struggles to them because of the—the cultural barrier of them being
immigrant parents and being raised from a certain way and then bringing back culture
from however long ago they left, like they left their country 20 years ago. So they're
bringing their culture that they know from 20 years ago. And so we've had cultural
clashes in my house and, um, language clashes and religion—religiosity clashes in my
house. But for now, I don't really know what—how to answer that question, but I'm
slowly figuring out, it's just yeah, I'm just trying to find like a sort of contentment within
myself to be happy about my relationship with God, you know? I don't wanna ever think
that what I'm doing now is enough, because in a way, I don't think it's ever enough. So
in that mindset, I can always push myself to be a better Muslim and me pushing myself
to be a better Muslim has helped me better myself in different ways, such as like having
better manners. um, doing better things for not only myself but people in my community
and just loving myself. So, that’s like all I can say for now.
Ruth 30:08
Um, when you said you and your parents had clashes, like what did you mean by that
exactly?
Aisha 30:14
Um, there was, for example, like clashes, um, dealing with schooling and my parents
had very high expectations. They still do, for me and my siblings to be a certain way and
because in a way, they're just like, “Oh, we don't want you to struggle like we did” and
all that other stuff, and sometimes they can push too hard. And so now that me and my
older brother are older, we’re just like, “You need to stop pushing so hard because it
makes it difficult for us to, um, try to reach those expectations that you're giving us.” And
like, for example, um, with my schooling, they didn't really like what I wanted to go to
school for, and so that's caused a lot of family tension and a lot of fights and crying and
then like, also like, language clashes. My parents, um, uh, are not happy at the fact that
me and my siblings can't speak the language well, but it's also because, um,
we're—we’re not in a setting where my parents speak only their native language
because my—my mom went to schooling here and my dad is a bus driver and so he
constantly has to speak to people. And so they're one of the most fluently speaking, uh,
English speakers in our community. So I can't even hear an accent in them. Other
people say they hear but I can't. And so for them they’re—they feel like we're kind of
losing our culture and becoming, um, too American in a way, so that's what I would say
for clashes.
Ruth 31:58
Yeah—um, how does being Muslim impact your daily life?
Aisha 32:02
Oh, it impacts everything for—uh—if you’ve never heard this quote, there's always this
thing that us Muslims say about Islam and that it's a way of life, like everything that I do
is—there's always something in Islam that talks about it from like the morning I wake up
to—to when I pray, to how I get dressed, how I eat to how I leave my house, how I
speak to my parents, so what manners I'm supposed to have, so Islam really revolves
around my life like I can never just separate Islam from my life like, Islam is embedded
into my life.
Ruth 32:43
Um...any—anything else you'd like to add about—about that?
Aisha 32:53
Hmm...No. That’s it. That’s all I can say.
Ruth 32:54
Okay. Um, so, speaking of your family, what are some of your family traditions?
Aisha 33:01
Traditions like religious traditions or like cultural traditions?
Ruth 33:05
Well, I guess, both, I guess, yeah.
Aisha 33:07
Um religious traditions, I wouldn’t say there's like much that comes from my family
specifically. But from what I know, like my mom really tried hard to make us really
interested in our religion. So I remember when we were all able to start fasting, my mom
would ask us to come and, um, decorate for Ramadan and when we were younger, we
never did that. So it's fun to go and start decorating for Ramadan, and then like one
year, I think I was in eighth grade or ninth grade, she bought like a frame—a wooden
frame—and then we went and painted out, uh, letters that said “Ramadan.
bhavik and everything and we painted it in pretty colors and then we put it on our front
door so all our neighbors can see. And then she bought, um, a lighting thing that was in
the shape of a crescent moon, and she hangs it on the window and so it, uh, it
plays—not plays, shines—through the window at night. And then some other thing that
we used to do, we used to go and bring food to the neighbors because they used to...it
was Ramadan and so the whole thing about being kind and nice to your neighbors in
Islam, we went and did that and then we started, um...when—after Ramadan finishes,
and Eid comes, we go and give presents to each other and buy cake and that's...that's
our religious traditions that I guess you could say. Cultural traditions...um, I don't know if
there's like a specific thing that my family does over everybody else. I wouldn’t say that
we do anything specific but I guess like, events that we go to are like baby naming
ceremonies, like baby showers, and weddings, but there's no specific cultural traditions
that my family does.
Ruth 35:01
You mentioned putting that crescent moon in your window. What does that represent?
In your religion?
Aisha 35:08
So, in Islam we follow the lunar calendar. So it's more...I don't know how to explain this.
But I know like Western countries and other countries follow the Gregorian calendar
where revolves around the sun, and the lunar calendar is more focused on the moon.
So there's an 11 day difference between both calendars. And so...so the months in
Islam are always moving around every single year. They're never staying in just like one
place, and also like the...the symbol of Islam is the moon and the star. So that's why we
have a crescent moon.
Ruth 35:49
Okay.
Aisha 35:49
Yeah.
Ruth 35:50
So, um, like for holidays, like what kind of things to do for—for that?
Aisha 35:56
So we basically like have two holidays. There's Ramadan and then the—the two Eids.
Uh, Eid Al-Fitr is after Ramadan, and Eid Al-Adha, is, um, during the—after [speaks
Arabic] season finish—finishes. So what my family does is, whew, it's wild. So my mom,
she likes to make like, uh, seasoned rice with like different types of meat and
everything. And so the night before, she'll start cooking it, and then she'll cook into the
night and then leave it so then she'll finish the rest of it in the morning. And then by that
time, we're still—we're still on the last day of Ramadan. So we still have to pack up and
go to the mosque to pray and break our fast and things like that. So the day before Eid
is always a...a very stressful day. And then in the morning is even more stressful
because everybody's fighting to get into the shower and like waking up and getting there
on time. We’re never on time. [laughter] One thing that my mom always does is that
she’ll wake everybody up and she’s like yelling around the house, she's just like, “We're
gonna be late, we're gonna be late,” then everybody's ready and she's literally the last
person who's ready. She's still in the shower when we're already done and everything.
And so then my mom will wake up extremely early, or sometimes I don't even know if
she sleeps, and then she'll wake up extremely early to finish cooking. And then, uh,
everybody else wakes up and then we get dressed in our—the clothes that we bought
for that year. And then we all pile into the car. And then we, I don't know how to say it in
English, but we have, I guess, like a mantra that we go and say in the car. It's kind of
like, um, I don't know what it means sorry, but it's like “Labbaykallah humma labbayk
Labbaykallah la shareeka laka labbayk” and we say that in our car on the way—all the
way to the mosque or the prayer area that everybody's gathering. Because it's, it's a
good thing to do on Eid, to keep sending praise. And then we go to the mosque, find
parking, then get into the area and find a place to pray because it's so packed. And then
after that everybody prays, and then everybody says their hi’s and hellos, and
everybody stays there to go and take pictures with each other. And then everybody
goes back home. And then when we get home, we open our presents and my
mom—who records us—and then my mom and dad call their family from all around the
world because my dad has like five siblings that live in Europe. And then, uh, they have,
uh, they have friends and family that like live all around the US. And then they still have
a majority of their family that lives back home in Guinea. So they're calling people and
they're asking us to go and speak to them and that's when me and my siblings run
away. [laughter] And then after that we take our nap for like three hours and then wake
up and then there's a barbecue for like the community to go to and then we go to the
barbecue and that's how we do holidays. [laughter]
Ruth 39:13
And...and remind me, what exactly are those holidays, like, celebrating, Ramadan and...
Aisha 39:18
So, you...uh, for Ramadan it's more like a spiritual, like rememberance. It’s more of, uh,
the significance of Ramadan is just to go and remember what poor people feel like, or
people who may be less than—who are considered less than—by society in like status
and like class or things like that. So it's just like thinking about them,and it's also like, uh,
training your body mentally and physically to, um, to...what's it called...to resist and
control your desires because they think of it as an analogy, like your stomach The whole
day is like telling you, oh, I need to eat, but then your brain is telling your stomach, Oh,
you can't do that until sunset comes. And so it's more like telling your inner soul that
even though if you wanna do like a SIM, for example, you have to tell them “no, you
can't do it.“ So things like that. And then the two Eids are just like a celebration thing.
Yeah.
Ruth 40:25
Olay. Um, so, celebration for...?
Aisha 40:29
Like Eid Al-Fitr is like the celebration after like Ramadan because you are fasting. And
then Eid Al-Adha Is like when everybody like sacrifices like a cow or goat or a sheep,
because hedge season has finished.
Ruth 40:43
Oh, okay.
Aisha 40:44
Yeah.
Ruth 40:45
Okay, cool. Uh, the next question I have is, uh, I think you mentioned this—you rallied
about this a little bit before, but have you experienced any negativity because of your
religion? And yeah, any experiences with that?
Aisha 41:00
I would say I’m one of the few people who hasn't experienced any, um, negativity
directly towards me. The only one that I can remember is in eighth grade when these
group of boys—I was walking to my class early in the morning, and they were following
behind me and they were just like, “No hats in school,” and I didn't know who they were
talking to. And they were just like, “No hats in school,” and then they're just like “You
stupid Muslim.” And so like, I whipped my head around. I was like [makes a shocked
noise] And then like they all walked away. So then I reported them to the principal and
all that other stuff, and then the kid got in trouble. And then he wrote me an apology
note.
So I still have the apology note. [laughter] So I guess that's one of the only experiences,
but I would say that I am aware that other Muslims, uh, for example, my cousins and
everything, have gone through, um, direct hate by people, and I know some people go
through like the worst things like having acid thrown on them or like getting beat up by
people or being like, bullied at school. I'm blessed that I haven't had to face that, but I
do, I have felt the isolation that it comes with, and how people would rather not want to
be around you because of the fact that you're Muslim because I can't think of any other
way because they don't know me personally. So, I think that's all I can say on my
personal experience.
Ruth 41:40
Aww.
And any, do you know, um...
any of your parents’ experiences, maybe...?
Aisha 42:33
Like, I wouldn’t say, um...I can't remember if there's specific instances where people
have called them out on being like Muslim, but I know like my dad, he gets a lot of
racism while driving at the bus, and like people are just like rude and disrespectful.
They're like drunk people on the bus so they say like, all sorts of things. And there's
always people that are asking him like, “Where are you from?” and all that other stuff.
So I know like my dad goes through that, but I can't remember if my mom has
experienced anything directly.
Ruth 43:09
Okay. Well, that’s good that you haven't experienced...
Aisha 43:13
Yeah.
Ruth 43:14
...negative things, that’s good.
Okay, next question I have is, unrelated to that, but, um, what are you majoring in?
What are you planning on majoring in?
Aisha 43:25
That’s a story! Do you wanna hear all—the whole story?
Ruth 43:28
Sure.
Aisha 43:29
Um, so...
Originally, in eighth grade, I really like—I forgot how I got into it but somehow I got into
it—Um, I had to I was in this competition thing about, um, oratorical speech contest.
And so we had to write about our future and what we wanted to do as a future job. And
so I remember in that instance, I couldn't remember anything until like two days before
the thing and I wrote about how I wanted to...um...what's it called?...I like the brain and I
was interested in learning stuff about the brain. And I think I mentioned a little bit of
psychology in there. Fast forward, I didn't win the thing, but I still like psychology. So,
um, ninth grade and tenth grade, it was more about me searching about what I wanted
to do with psychology and things like that. And so when I finally mentioned to my
parents that I wanted to do psychology, they were not very happy about it. Because my
dad wanted me to do something in the sciences and he didn't really like the idea of
mental health sciences
Because like, they—like a stigma he held about it with like, religiousness and all that
other stuff. And then, um, my mom wanted me to be a nurse. She's a nurse herself. And
so like, in my community, especially, every single woman or every other woman in my
community is a nurse. Like, no other...all of them are nurses. So like I literally come
from a whole family line of nurses, can’t escape it, even remember studying to be a
nurse. So...so, and it’s because for them, nursing was the easiest way and fastest way
that they could finish their education and start making enough money to support their
families. So I get that that's why she would want me to do nursing. And she also says
that it's like really broad and everything, but I've never really been interested in nursing.
So that's kind of been hard. And so then, um, what is it? So then I was just like, oh, you
know, like, I see the way my parents struggle from paycheck to paycheck. So, um, I
changed psychology into psychiatry. I don't really like psychiatry as much because I
don't like the idea of just like giving medicine to people. I don't want people to be
addicted to medicine since we have such a big epidemic of, um, opioids and drugs here
in America. And we're also like a very, um, medically dependent country when it comes
to curing people of like diseases and stuff like that. Not that that's a bad thing, but we
also have high overdoses so. And so, um, it was literally in my senior year where I
decided to, um, pursue psychiatry. And then I came here to Augsburg because I didn't
wanna major in biology because I don't like biology by itself, I think that's boring. And so
I found out that Augsburg here has a biopsych course, so now I'm majoring in bio psych.
So I'm pretty excited about that. I have yet to take any psychology classes from here,
but I'm excited for it. And hopefully I'll be able to do something with it.
Ruth 46:50
So, and you're in biology right now, right?
Aisha 46:53
Uh, yes.
Ruth 46:54
And how—or, do you...do you like it?
Aisha 46:57
The... [laughter] Um, the course—I’m surprised at how well I'm doing in the class. I
would say, um...
I wouldn’t say I hundred percent like it, but at least I understand it enough to like, like
something. Like I...I like learning about some of the animals and freshwater species and
the geology and things like that. But the specific sciency stuff about biology... Ha ha ha
no way!
(laughter) Yeah.
Ruth 47:29
[laughter] Um, uh, what do you plan on doing with that—with your major? Like, what
career do you think?
Aisha 47:35
Um, so my plan is to go to med school with it. And hopefully when I finish my med
school, I'll be in my third or fourth year. Hopefully I'll be able to decide what I really want
to specialize in, whether it's like emergency medicine, psychiatry or functional medicine,
and then after that go to residency for some years, finish that. And then after that I want
to be able to work...uh, work and get work experience for some number of years. And
then I wanna branch out and open up my own business that caters to not only like the
Muslim community, but other communities here, nationally and internationally. So
hopefully it works out.
Ruth 48:22
Okay. That’s cool. Um, so...um, why—like why do you—why are you deciding that you
want to go to medical school?
Aisha 48:31
Um, it may sound like for selfish reasons, but like I said before, like, um, my parents, I
see the way they struggle just to get a paycheck. And sometimes we had to go living
through paycheck to paycheck. And so I wanna be able to not only do something that
I'm passionate about, but also make a lot of money for it, because I don't want my kids
to feel, uh, to feel like they can't have something because I don't have enough money to
pay for it. And I also wanna be able to like pay for things and not have to be like, uh, be
like a ration for stuff like, oh, how am I supposed to pay this and the kids school? And
dadada. And I also wanna be able to pay for their, um, uh, what is it? College. I’m trying
to build that generational wealth, you know what I’m saying?
Ruth 49:26
Yeah.
Aisha 49:27
And then also like, I guess, having the knowledge of not only, um, psychology and
different parts, but also knowing the body and also understanding how to administer
medicine. I feel like that would be a big advantage to me to being able to better help my
community and not—and not just going through it from one single view but going
through it from multiple views.
Ruth 49:54
Okay. All right. And those are all the questions I have, uh, is there anything else that
you want to add or anything else you want to talk about that we didn’t get to talk about
earlier?
Aisha 50:05
Um, nothing comes to mind. But I would just say, for anyone...who...
Um, for anyone who wants to like diversify their, um, uh
their like five in mind and everything, be open to meeting new people, whether they look
like you and whether they don't look like you, because you can learn so many different
things from—from so many different people. And you'd be surprised that where you can
learn some stuff from and what people you learn it from. So, be open-minded. Don't
stress yourself out and live life beautifully.
Ruth 50:43
Aw, that’s nice. Okay, thank you so much for talking with me and sharing your
experiences.
Aisha 50:50
Yeah, you're welcome.
Ruth 50:51
Okay.
Aisha 50:51
Thank you for inviting me.
Ruth 50:52
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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