RG 21.4.2014.03.13 Don Gustafson
Transcript
Fri, 08/23 11:29AM
66:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, department, faculty, year, india, carl, people, chair, remember, courses, spring,
jensen, college, point, gus, nominated, 70s, questions, teaching
SPEAKERS
Phil Adamo, Don Gustafso... Show more
RG 21.4.2014.03.13 Don Gustafson
Transcript
Fri, 08/23 11:29AM
66:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, department, faculty, year, india, carl, people, chair, remember, courses, spring,
jensen, college, point, gus, nominated, 70s, questions, teaching
SPEAKERS
Phil Adamo, Don Gustafson, Michael Lansing
M
Michael Lansing 00:02
The date is March 13 2014. The narrator is Donald Gustafson, professor of history at
Augsburg College. The interviewers are Michael Lansing, associate professor of history at
Augsburg College and Phil Adamo, associate professor of history at Augsburg College.
The interview is taking place here in Don Gustafson's office in Memorial Hall, Minneapolis,
Minnesota. Gus we're wondering if you might be willing to describe the department as you
encountered it when you arrived in 1960?
D
Don Gustafson 00:35
Could I do something first, please. Which is it just for your sake? Let me talk a little bit
about the 50 years I've been here, you know, just just to give you a sense of where I was in
each decade, okay, I came in the in September of 6160s. were, you know, quite an
interesting decade for what was going internationally. For me just getting involved in new
institution teaching going off to do my PhD finish up my research in India and coming
back they were good years I, I didn't I, I can't. It's probably not fair to say that I was a fair
her child but I certainly was in an honored position being here.
D
Don Gustafson 01:20
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The 70s were, in some ways, great and awful. Eyes managed to do some traveling during
that decade overnight, took three groups to either Sri Lanka or India on the base via the
University of Minnesota span program. I had the misfortune of becoming department
chair which could which was it ultimately horror. We were a small department and could
talk about those people are those into situation. If you Teaching was a joy. I was certainly
not the greatest teacher on campus, but I, I did well and liked, like the process in the 80s.
D
Don Gustafson 02:19
Let's see, I've been struggling with the 80s because there were some good years in the 60s
70s and 80s were really great years for the history department. Because of the students
we had also, the school was still relatively small. And then something happened in during
the 80s. Well, Carl, Chris Locke, who was the Grand Old Man of the department retired
and we got somebody new but or temporarily at least new. But something else just really
must have set me off that is right after Carl's retirement. I think that was when I just
decided I'd had all I wanted to Augsburg I should have left. Instead, I just backed out of
everything said no, no, no. And then realized after a time, I was cutting off my nose to
spite my face, and, and therefore selectively went back into doing some of the things I'd
done before.
D
Don Gustafson 03:18
The 90s came along. And continuing, it was a wonderful decade for me for travel
overseas, with Africa in 90. Let's see, where did we go? Where did I do in 91. It was India in
92. It was Russia and Sweden. In 93, it was Egypt. Just just sheer luck. One of the best
things academically that happened to be during the 80s in the 90s was that having didn't
renounced ever doing a seminar again, I went back and chose to do And it turned out I
had learned how to do it, or what and certainly be having a seminar was one of the best
things that happened over the last year's. The 90s was also a great decade because I
began using tacs. And that was a positive thing personally for me. And it was in the 90s
that the class program, I think, got started here. And clearly, it has been the class program
that given me some remarkable shots in the arm because the students that brought and
then comes our current Millennium and you both were here most of that time. So you
know, basically what may have happened. I, I think I had some very good years here. I
also had some down years. And at the moment I am I feel increasingly depressed. Who
knows? Well, it may be because of the upcoming departure.
D
Don Gustafson 05:00
But, you know, as I look back Also, my great days were in the 60s and 70s. And and then I
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just begin to a different situation. And now I'm at the point of thinking, why am I still here?
I'm not keeping up with people and so, okay with that, and as of the first of June, I'll be out
of here I expect. Okay. That's Oh, yes. The 70s were also a big set of big decade because
that's the year Bev and I made the decision to move to St. Peter on a temporary one year
affair, and somehow we're still in that temporary one year affair. It was also the decade
we added two more adopted children to the family. And well, okay, that's enough. Now.
Do you want me to just go on
D
Don Gustafson 06:00
It's talking to and do you want to break in with some of your questions if I've got to sit
telling enough?
M
Michael Lansing 06:04
Sure.
D
Don Gustafson 06:05
When I came to this to here in 61, CArl Chrislock, and Oracle Gisselquist, were the member
in the Department, and they talked to me very generally. I want you to know I did not
apply for the job. I was called, by the dean wondering if I would be any of it. They had an
interest. His he was calling me because the man who had been teaching ancient history
was moving on to somewhere else. They needed to get somebody to teach ancient
history. There. One of my college classmates from Chris Davis, Glenn Sampson, top notch
guy. Somehow Dane Quantic heard about him, call it a good save is how can we get ahold
of him? We'd like to offer him a job. And will then he'll answer the phone in in the alumni
office, new, new Glenn. Hey, back in those days, if you're in alumni office you knew
everybody. And and as Sylvia certainly did, and she told him know that she knew where
Glenn was and what he was going to be involved. And she said, but you know, I don't know
if Don Gustafson has a job for next year. And my son Tom really likes him. So that was the
recommendation that got me to Augsburg. Plus, I got a master's degree. And that was
wonderful because the college was hiring a good number of people who were teaching
with their bachelor's degrees. And so I met I met Chris luck for a very informal sort of time.
I arrived on campus the day of the old school picnic at como Park, so I had to wait for
people to come back to be here.
D
Don Gustafson 07:43
And the older older man in the department was claiming, I can't remember his name. I
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don't ever remember talking to Dr. Cleveland other than greeting I remember Carl looking
at Orland saying well, should we should we find Craven and orlistat? I don't think it pays,
or something of that sort. So I did meet him, nor did I meet Khin Khin Jensen, who was
within the department head had become a part time faculty member. At her own
requests. And I think that next year, the first year I was, she was on leave, and had seen her
husband and kids went back to to Burma for a year. So I didn't meet her at first.
D
Don Gustafson 08:36
We were the department. Our back in those days, you know, was wonderful teaching here,
partly because I was welcomed, partly because, you know, I was only Well, how old was it?
28 and among the younger faculty here, and well Sure, I, I'm not sure I knew how to teach,
but I knew how to keep it, classes attention. And students seem to like me. And one of the
things that I have really missed recent in recent years is, college was small enough, that
there were basically only a limited number of choices. And so freshmen, I knew pretty well,
but freshman, each freshman was taking the religion course in English and so on. And
again, and again, it was possible to relate something from class to what I know, they knew
they were doing in one of these other departments. In some ways, I think, I think kids kind
of better had a better chance and liberal arts education then, because there was a little
more possibility of integration, thinking of questions and so forth. Also, at that time, we
still had chapel that was attended by almost everybody.
D
Don Gustafson 10:01
I know I personally found the chapel a great way of getting something started in class by
referring to the chapel talk etc. And I could I could depend on the bulk of the fact of the
students having been there. And and and we could I was in room. What was it? Have I
already forgotten? It used to be room 18 of Maine and it is so politically proper that I am
my last teaching will again be in that same room which has now become five at 105 or
something. By the way, I should also indicate to people I came here in 61. I have been here
connected with the college for 53 years but in effect, I am finishing my 15th year of
teaching right now because I was gone for three years to do that. HC I think I'm just
oblivious to lots of things. And so I don't remember very much outside of the history
classes and so on from that first year, I do remember one thing very vividly. This was I was
not at the faculty meeting when Dr. Christiansen announced he was leaving, that he was
retiring, which, and that was 1962. This was, I think it was in the early 80s. I think it was in
the fall of 1961.
D
Don Gustafson 11:31
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And then and because I remember, probably in March or April of 1962, the board
announced their selection of the new president. And one of the nice things back in those
days was we didn't have department coffee pots, or individual coffee pots if we're going
to have coffee. We went down to the factory lounge, which is where the education
department is now. There was a little kitchenette. There you go. It was good coffee. And
my recollection was was almost always, you could find some faculty member sitting down
there and talk to it. So I hadn't heard the announcement of the new president. I remember
walking down into that faculty lounge. And here was Phil Kline back and Paul Sonic and
some of the very respected faculty having the longest faces, you could imagine, because
they had hopes that now Augsburg was going to make a step forward. And then what did
the board do? But go get a preacher from Morehead as their as the president of the
school, somebody who didn't even have a master's degree as far as I recall, and they were
a gun bunch and I was just out of touch enough not to fully realize the ins and outs of it.
D
Don Gustafson 13:00
I suspect it was a case where the board did with the board or was it they make the
decisions and told the faculty afterwards? And no, I take that back. I take that back and
watch it. But you're right. It was in the spring of 63. Because with the announcement of
Christians and his departure, it was announced that OG What was his name was going to
come in and fill in for a year as a temporary interim prison. And then it was the next spring
when he was still here that we got the word from about Oscar Anderson coming. I will say
that I I always liked Oscar. I thought he was excellent. And but that's that's another matter.
D
Don Gustafson 13:57
Okay. I went off to graduate school.
M
Michael Lansing 14:00
What year was that?
D
Don Gustafson 14:01
In the summer of 63. I had taken a couple I've taken some courses at Minnesota while I
was here. Because I could so easily do that. And it was, to some extent, I think Martin
quarterback who was dean who basically said, Guys, if you're going to stay at teaching,
you've got to, you really have got to go on and get your, your spiritual union card. And I
did not want to go on to graduate school because I had learned enough about graduate
school to know that at that time, graduate school taught you to be a researcher, so you
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could write books. And my interest in being a researcher and writing books was not very
high. I wanted to teach. And so I really thought the idea, but finally sort of broke down
and Great to partly also, Wisconsin was just into the second or third year of what looked
like a very interesting program, comparative tropical history. What a crazy mouthful of
stuff that was. But it was a wonderful time to go back to graduate school because for me
in this area, because that was when the government had just decided we don't have
enough authorities on the rest of the world. And so, anybody, almost anybody, if you went
back to grad school in certain fields, and we're willing to study Arabic or Swahili or almost
any one of those obscure languages, the government didn't quite pay your whole way. But
did they did well by and I did not apply for that because I didn't know about well, in fact, I
didn't. I don't think I applied to get back into grad school until probably March of that
year.
D
Don Gustafson 16:02
OR times, James, different now. And I was accepted immediately, partly because I had my
masters from Wisconsin, and had been at that point promoted to do PhD work. So that
was on the record at night. I could do that. About graduate work at Wisconsin. Well, I
decided I would do India part because I'd been to India before as a student, and I was so
intrigued with it. By the way, I don't remember that anybody here suggested to me Well,
first of all, there was no, there was sort of an understood. We hope you'll come back, but
nothing on paper. No, nothing, no. Written commitment. I think I hit every expect of
probably coming back. And nobody that I can remember made any suggestion as to what
they thought I should take what, although I suppose I had given understand it would be
something non Western.
D
Don Gustafson 17:19
Grad school was hard. I'm not overwhelmingly bright in terms of academically, and I had
an instructor who proved to be the kind of wonderful friend that I still go and visit, and so
on. But clearly one of the weakest teachers I've ever had, partly because he was so busy
getting his first book published, so he would get tenure, and this was who this was. frickin
Berg and this little world we live in. His parents had been missionaries By the way, my first
year, I think Three or was it four of the faculty I had? Were all missionary children, because
missionary children were the few people available who had done academic work in these
parts of the world that they were interested in. But my last morning in India as a student in
at the hospital in Bombay, I had breakfast with a couple missionary couple who asked me
if I would bring some tapes and some other things back and from since I was heading
back to the states to Minnesota, and shortly before I took off for India tour doing my
research, I went back over my diary and discovered that that couple that I had breakfast
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with with the parents of Robert frickin Berg who is my advisor, Wisconsin.
D
Don Gustafson 18:52
Anyway, the fabulous part of being it was gone. Was that I had Philip curtain, who became
a very recognized name and was clearly a superb teacher Jedi. What I learned from him
was very good. And of course, my, my closest academic friend at that point was Barbara
Metcalf who A few years later is going to become president of the American Association
Asian Studies. You know, I haven't apologized but I rub shoulders with people who were
great people and went off to India in 68. With the my second year of graduate school, I
did get a government grant just to continue my study of Canada, of which I learned
almost nothing but I got the credit and went off to India for that year of 6566. In order to
keep from being lonely over in India, I we got married just weeks before we We took off,
had a wonderful trip going to India because we spent two weeks in Japan or Bennett like
Hong Kong, or neither where I hadn't been Bangkok where I hadn't been. And then, and
then India were at four o'clock in the morning we were met by Marianne, who was a good
friend from St. Peter who paid, married an Indian doctor and was living in Delhi and knew I
was coming sometime but we had never told the plane exactly, but I don't know how she
found out but anyway, they were there the airport and and of course, you know, as I think
about, we had made absolutely no plans as to what we're going to do when we got to
Delhi.
D
Don Gustafson 20:45
So God intervened and saw that we were taking care of. And two weeks later, the war
broke out between India and Pakistan, which made an interesting X ray interesting here
and from there about the end of August we Train down to Bangalore where I knew I was
going to be and so forth. You know, that got back here in the summer of 66. August of 66.
found an apartment. I my first years at Augsburg, I was sharing an office in Memorial up
on the second floor and I have a remnant of that because just today I dug out that pile of
cherry tobacco cans because back in those days I smoked cherry tobacco and i think i
through most of them when I moved in this at one point or another, but these are remet.
Anyway, I came back and number of things really, I owe you the echo to sue. Neat article
about Gus is back which you know, is I didn't think very much about you know, I liked it at
the time. But now that I think back on it, you know, it was those were it was, you know, one
commodity on campus. And I just took her for granted that I wouldn't be now. It's, it's a
little depressing now to feel like I don't know anybody on campus anymore.
D
Don Gustafson 22:21
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Let's see what Ellen and I had written with Carl and said that, you know, he or Carla
written and he said, Well, if you're coming back, what do you want to teach? And I of
course would teach that I agree to teach the Western Civ series of freshmen to term and I
also a group would teach the ancient history, because I had taught that before and after
all, these two years of Greek which college which just automatically qualified me for, for
teaching ancient history. And then and I think it was in the fall of 66. Right away, I, I asked
if I could teach a course, which was simply a mimicking of what I had of what I'd taken it
Wisconsin, the expansion of Europe and permitted no objection. And, and either that that
year or certainly the next year, I was teaching expensive about it and it was a to fall in the
spring. Not they didn't have it was like, never take both of them, but I found myself fitting
in with Augsburg students. There were different groups somewhat different than to save
us.
D
Don Gustafson 23:46
Why, but I thought it could save us the year before I came here, as I indicated, and, you
know, we had some children of professional families. You know, I remember a couple kids
who was fathers were lawyers, a couple of doctors here. We had professional kids, but
they were fathers were ministers. And that was the moment otherwise they were much like
some of it could save his students straight off the farm. I think I've I felt I this is just off the
cuff, but I think I think I felt that Augsburg was a little more national in that across the
country, in that people came to Augsburg because it was a Lutheran college and many
because it was a Lutheran preschool. And they were still there. They were families that
were still very deeply connected with the Lutheran Free Church. And so I'm always
delighted students from the from New England, from Washington, Oregon, etc. We all I
also had got to know a number of missionary kids, because Lutheran Free Church was
really a remarkable institution in in sensing people had vocations to be missionaries. And
and I, you know a great memories of these these missionary kids and they often
gravitated here because I was one of the few people on on the faculty who had been in
the kinds of worlds they had grown up here.
D
Don Gustafson 25:28
And and that was that was, you know, really, really very fun to do it. There was a kind of
downer and let me not get too involved in this but at the very first faculty meeting, our
department meeting rather in September, and it seemed to think for some reason that
was it was held upstairs in in this in this building in were Mark furious office now. It was fun
to do that because my My second year of teaching here at Augsburg ventures where I
have been part of the year because my roommate, no, my roommate had been had been
transferred to Omaha and I couldn't afford the apartment. So I so I live in this was that at
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that point two boys dorm anyway.
D
Don Gustafson 26:17
And at that meeting Dr. Jensen, at some point simply said, Well, she let her unhappiness
shine. She indicated she saw this course expansion of Europe. This was her world.
Augsburg was too small school for having to non Western historians. If she had known this
was going on she would have put us up to it which was quite a welcome back. Once
you've returned from Wisconsin GI you would this was returning with the PhD from what I
hadn't got the PhD yet but it was returning from from my leave, you know and I was in line
by The way this world we live in several years ago, several I remember when I came across
the program of the day, I took my I had my Masters exam, quiz or whatever, whatever I
needed and which I was at 130 National and guess what, at 930 that morning and digital,
had her PhD, it's Khin Khin Jensen. I never met her at the time, you know, I would have no
idea who she was. I never told her that.
D
Don Gustafson 27:36
Anyway, and I was pretty shaken and by this broadside, and didn't handle it. I didn't. You
know, I tried to suggest that it was it will, that I was not will be trying to move in on her
territory, and so on. And Much of the thrust of the expansion of your Of course under
curtain was to do comparative stuff and, and and that kind of thing. And, and certainly
Carl Chrislock and an Oracle backed me up quietly but, you know, they, they are not
about to get involved in discussion, but that was sort of the mood that I lived within for the
next years I was unwanted competition.
D
Don Gustafson 28:30
I I can't remember how many years it took before I dared do a course on India, because
that was her field. And you know, I I did eventually do some but so what did you teach
instead? What did what I teach? I think as I recall, it was expensive. Your I was still the
bright young star at that point. And I think I had classes if I should go back and double
check, but I'm sure I had classes and have 30 or 35 students for this because, you know, it
was exotically new doing something like this, etc. And I taught the Western Civ dealt
department wise during these years. I think about 68 or so. The decision was, though, first
of all, the dean, Dean Ken Bailey, that read some book and had made it clear that in a
small college, no department should have more than 16 courses in the catalog. So we got
the orders, go to the catalog and cut out all the courses cut down to trim 16 courses. So
we did they did for us it was healthy because we had several courses that had been there
for years and never taught and so on, but there was that, then somewhere.
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D
Don Gustafson 29:59
The idea Came we'd be better off if we'd have the quarter system rather than the two
term system. And what was good about that was that in the old system, we would come in
the fall, and then this fall term would end, sort of in the middle of January. So we come
back from Christmas break, and then try and get geared up to finish the course and do
the end. And it was always hectic. Or I found that when we go into the quarter system, we
didn't have that kind of thing. However, after two years, it became apparent that the
quarter system had one drawback that they hadn't realized, and that is, it made. It made
it much easier for students to transfer from Augsburg to the university since we had joined
cat paga. We had concurrent calendars. So and it was just about this time that the Twin
City College Just at the end throughout the country, the the new thing was to do a 414.
And so we had full term interim and spring term.
D
Don Gustafson 31:11
And now, each of these, it meant rearranging courses and, and for example, when you
went to for one for at that point, that's when it went to courses from credits of courses.
And so there was a matter of revising, of course, I don't recall if there was ever, you know,
overwhelming problems but it was new so to speak. Hey, these were you know, now that I
think back on it. These are some good years for me a fun years. And I really feel like I've
gotten old, but in those years well, I was I just somehow think back on I was involved in so
many things on campus. I know when they had the Sadie Hawkins dance, I would always
be the marrying Sam. When the art department had its spring auction of artworks, I would
be the auctioneer.
D
Don Gustafson 32:20
Let's see. Oh, that was it was that this time that the Danforth foundation had a wonderful
program for academic conferences, and what they wanted were two or three faculties
from every school out there and Phil Thompson. I don't remember how he got involved in
the program, but I think arts my second year back here after that, from India. Phil
nominated me too. And so I got it. And this was great because we have conference twice
a year at always Some at all was at a, you know, a very pleasant resort kind of thing. It
also began with a national conference in in Georgia. And it was at that conference, and I
acquired that hot middle made at the Athens, Georgia had just had a fire downtown, etc.
And those conference, they were clearly no notice no discipline, and no specific discipline,
just general. just general academic conferences where we enjoyed being intellectuals. And
we, by the way, hosted IN not here at Augsburg, but Phil and I had to put together a
conference sometime on was that early 80s, I guess of this for for the Midwest and forth
and I would gather, we have maybe 150 people who would come it was one of the best
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ways Meeting faculty from other institutions here.
D
Don Gustafson 34:03
I was lucky enough to be in it. And of course, it helped that in the fall of 68. I finished
writing my PhD dissertation. And I got that it was at this point. That was one one of those
days when Carl said, as I have told you, Carol, I met Carl in the hallway said, well, you're
getting here. You'll be getting your degree in a couple of weeks is tiny. We have 10 year old
tell the dean and I got 10 years. And I think it was 1970 when Phil Quanbeck and I were
selected by the senior classes, outstanding faculty. Oh, and it was at the side that during
these years I was faculty rep on the student side. it. And I, I did like it in that and it was at
the time was it? Like I said earlier, somehow history was the in thing because I made sure
and partly because we had a good number of students going on education part because
we had a fair number of students going on to the seminary. And then there were the usual
group, which is like history.
D
Don Gustafson 35:24
And we had some Well, it was good to get to know these people and work with them and
so forth. in that fashion, and I, I stayed as faculty rep on the Student Senate for 10 or 12
years. I'm not sure if it was because they didn't know how to tell me to get off or what it
was, but it it it gave me a sense of some of what was going on campus and and let's see
what Can I see well, and then, in 72, Ben and I took our first group of students, only one of
whom was an expert student to Sri Lanka. And three years later in 75, we took a group to
India. This time there were two experts.
M
Michael Lansing 36:17
How many other faculty at Augsburg were leading study abroad trips like that?
D
Don Gustafson 36:22
In the early mid 1970s, I don't remember that anybody was. I don't recall it. I may have
overlooked somebody, though. It was in the late 70s. I think that Mary Kingsley was, and
Joel McGee and so forth, we're getting things organized in Mexico that an adventure that
was developed. But you know, I can understand why nobody lead groups in those days
because well, I took a group to India but I it was all up to me and I and of course, in the
span program, I didn't have to keep them together as a group. I have been a spanner in
India myself. So it was a matter of spending the year previous, every other Saturday with
the students preparing for the trip. And then once we got to the country, each one of
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them went off on his or her own project and we'd have occasional meetings if it was
convenient and what a span standpoint, student project for enmity among nations. It was
a idealistic group that came out of the university right after the Second World War.
D
Don Gustafson 37:35
University of Minnesota, yeah. And is strictly University of Minnesota program. And it is
still struggling. It is still in existence, amazingly. And let's see what what else can I say
about we one of our most illustrious man alumni with A woman named john Mondale and
there were others as well. And anyway, that seven of us who I grew up with India, in 54 we
really bonded as a group and the five of us who are still living get together every year. It
happens. Where we all live in Minnesota, we haven't gotten anywhere. And so it's amazing
and I, I am not in contact. I am still in contact with I would say three or four of the
students that went with us to India in your history log back in those days, and then I took
another group in Bev and I took another group in 79. Good experiences we was only we
could afford to take trips like this because they were We were given a stipend, which was
meant to cover our costs and that's about what it did.
D
Don Gustafson 39:07
But was it was to go to a place one likes to be with students that are, you know, and as
you will have discovered, going with students can be so rewarding because you get to see
and hear so much that one personal doesn't hear you. Okay. Well, what else should I say?
Oh, let's see what else was happening in the early 70s. Oh, yes. Dumb Gus. Carl, Chris luck.
Nice guy. He very much did you say? I don't think Carl had a sophisticated bone in his
body. And I'm not saying that as an insult as a man is. It just wasn't his way of doing
things. And he regularly grouse about The administrative responsibilities he had. And I
can't remember when it was, I must have been in spring of 71. He said, Gus, you've been
here long of his time, you'll be chairman of the department. And you know, I was honored
at the time. All right.
D
Don Gustafson 40:20
So I became stupidly chair of the department. I don't know if Karl realized this was
happening to coming or if it but it was that year that suddenly college realized that
enrollment had dropped. They are there. The incoming freshman class was down by 50
students or something. And it was a major financial crunch. So the question was, is that
the time they they came out with strap, which was the initials for some sort of committee
to investigate? And of course, quickly it became we are strapped in And, and the decision
was I, I was at five or six, four or five, six faculty simply would have to be cut, as well as
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staff and so on. Well, this was difficult because our newest faculty member, which is Rick
Nelson, by the way, I had been asked somewhere I think it's 68. Gus. We're going to hire
another faculty member. What do you you're doing? You've been doing ancient history. Do
you want to continue that? Or? Or do you want to shift and do some of the modern
Europe stuff? And I opted to do because it fit with them graduate work and sauce. So they
and I don't remember anything about the hiring of Rick Nelson.
D
Don Gustafson 41:48
Except there were questions. He was Roman Catholic, and he would be expected to teach
the road for reformation course. And I don't think there were any questions Within the
history department, but there were some other questions that were raised from, you know.
Anyway, Rick was hired, he was spectacular choice fine guy to, as you will know, from his
reputation, I'm sure etc. And well, within the department, there was Oracle who was clearly
financially struggling because he had his five children and so forth. And Bev and I are not
on hot on high, but we were managing and, and raw, Rick Nelson was obviously not doing
well, I mean, was on the edge of things.
D
Don Gustafson 42:48
And it was, to my mind to all our minds. He was he was vulnerable. And what made it
worse was that it was at this point that Dr. Jensen decided She should become full time,
years before she had asked to become part time. And she had been, as I was told, she had
been informed that yes, she could go part time. But she could not make the decision as to
when if she came back full time, it would have to fit within the school. She could not
understand that at all. Because after all, she was she was contingency. And that all came
to a head in the in the spring of I must have been 72. And I absolutely refuse to ask that
she be given full time because I was so certain that if she had been given full time record,
they would have let it go. Now, I may have been wrong in that assumption. Certainly.
Neither carnal nor low. were arguing to get Jensen back full time. And but it didn't. It
didn't do much to cement a relationship between us.
D
Don Gustafson 44:15
That was the time she was sitting in that damn chair, very chair. We were having a spring
faculty meeting, department meeting. Why am I going into all this I was decided I was
going to do that. We were having this me. And at those days we did things so stupidly we
got together the whole group and made a request for what courses were going to do the
next year and we list them and and then the sort of the chair and each individual to work
it out. And so we went down around the list and and I thought she had gotten the
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message that she would not be full time. So there she said and presented next year. I want
to teach Seven courses, which was a full load, and I just lost my cool. Absolutely. And all I
did was say, I've lost my cool I can't go on, let's quit. And that came back to haunt me
again and again because I she said I raised my voice anyway. Enough of that.
D
Don Gustafson 45:30
Let's see what else happened during the 70s Oh yes. During the 70s we had a remarkable
man on campus who was came to be head of the English department Mark Davis, right
April guy, good guy. And he was the one who basically set the groundwork for what
interrupt was going to be and and did it well. And he became Associate Dean, not
surprisingly no I forgotten exactly the sequence how long he was in charge of the the intro.
But I think when Charles Anderson came is Dean Mark was his associate, and Mark and I
got along very well liked each other and so on. And, and I suppose it was Mark who, who
told Charles, that he wanted out from running the intro and said, ask us to do it. So, and
you know, it was all right. I thought Sure, why not? And I'm glad I did because one of the
best wonderful education in the realm of administration, so to speak, and my kind of level
of administration I didn't realize it at the time. But you know, I just have to follow the rules
and simply say, I have no budget so I have no money and and yes, there were harried
moments and whatnot, but It was just doing those and I think I ran a fairly good intro my,
the hardest problem was absolutely insisted nobody could take more than one course
during January. And I had some fairly intense discussions with both students and faculty
at times about that. Well, I remember social worker from it was no longer here, came into
the office one day, she had this student who desperately needed credits. And the student
was going to be in in that class. And then student also wanted to take another course. And
and of course she can do it because she has did that but one had that much to do in my
course. Two wishes about next year then your course open, you have credit course.
D
Don Gustafson 47:49
Student did not get by a fun moment. So what year did you become the director? I can't
remember what year it was. How long were you that director AI it was it was lifted from
me I, I got the interim in place, and I think it was I went on to leave the spring of 91 and I
had the interim ready for that point that that's a whole other instrument or another. We all
have our little stories of irritation with but that and several times I went to the academic I
told For example, I told her this is this is the kind of experience on the resume that other
faculty should have. Because I discovered like prima donnas faculty can be and on the
other hand, he gave me also a chance to meet and work with that we that I otherwise
never and I, and, well, finally one year and I can't remember the why of it. He appointed
another woman or another woman, a woman can't even remember who she would
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pleasant Spencer's but, but yeah, she really messed things up. And then next year I was
back.
D
Don Gustafson 49:12
Okay. Let me think what happened what what sorts of things were happening somewhere
in this time of the 70s Rick, Rick Nelson became chair and then he was replaced by Oracle.
Rick and insisted he didn't like being chair but in fact, I think he did. But or low or low was
not a strong teacher. He was sounded solid, but no sex appeal. And, but when it came to
being Chairman, the department Oh, he was a dreamer. He he could Well, not what we
should be doing. I never got those things that doesn't cross my mind. And one of the
things in somewhere in the 70s I think it was, I had been and when I became Associate
Professor, but somewhere in the 70s or about 1980 it was suggested that I should become
that I should, I should put myself up for full professor. And I chose not I said, I just can't
because there was or low who was my senior and she was associate professor.
D
Don Gustafson 50:43
Hey, that reminds me more local gossip abroad the way we operate. One of the things
when I became chair things were pretty loose about the way and I can't remember if it
was the first or second year that I was chair the dean said I want to know who should be
considered for promotion So will you department chairs get together and and with under
the chairmanship of your other division chair and and tell me what you and so so we five
or six of us and I don't remember who was apartments who the vision share was at that
time but boy talk about you know I'm just not with it because I got in there and and we sat
around and then we got to well who should Who should we got it what and Norma begin
by saying well I'm going to nominate myself because I've been here six years and then
Dwayne Johnson and said, Well, I'm tending to nominate myself because and I get up
you're not occurred
D
Don Gustafson 52:00
To me talk about being night and and I can't remember who else was. But there were
three chair all who I came because and my problem my question was should Khin Khin
Jensen be nominated? And I had talked with Carl, I think I talked with Marlo and it
basically come to the conclusion. I was not validated. There were several all kinds of silly
things that should not have made a difference. But I know somewhere early in my
chairmanship I had sent a note around saying please, if you're going to miss class,
because you're going to a conference or something, let me know so I'm aware of it. She
had a riot about that because didn't I understand what academic freedom meant? catch
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any house well, when she And I, I told I, and she had been there several other things that
occurred.
D
Don Gustafson 53:09
Anyway, so with the chairs, I said I was struggling with it and had come to the conclusion I
was not going to nominate her. And that, okay, we just listened to. Well, she made a case
out of that, that she had not been nominated. And I had to go before the faculty equity
committee and so forth, because anyway, but that whole business of these one chair after
another, and the next year, well, we learned the next year. We were in forum chairs have to
be nominated by the division chair. Not but yeah, okay. Well, we got we came became
more sophisticated. So you said that you were choosing to not go up for full. Can you tell
us more about that? Well, just it was partly I wasn't sure I would I would necessarily get it
and and partly I really you know I respected Arlo so much and and he was usually I got
the feeling that he was stepped on and so forth and I really thought how can I well he
never did go to never an either or their qualifications for this or I mean in the way that
these things are very know precisely laid out oh nowadays well I'm not if I'm not mistaken
by the time I did go up for professor, the chair of the department had to write a letter and
I'm not sure if anybody else did or not but the chairs letter and at that time we were given
to understand that the number one qualification was good acceptable teaching and and
you know, I don't remember quite what else however, You asked the wrong question.
D
Don Gustafson 55:02
There was the year I was nominated and recommended by the dean for promotion when
they when these were presented to the Board of Regents, and I think there were seven set
here because it had been, they suddenly thought they had to get caught up. And
somebody on the board said, This just isn't working. How many of these people have
published if they haven't published they can't we Why are we promoted them? And there
were others in the boards. It hasn't been a requirement. How can we pull it pose it now?
And so as a result, the board just lifted hanging. And, and it hung all spring. There were
five of us who didn't know if we're going to be familiar. What year was that? I don't
remember sometime in the mid 80s. So 84 somewhere. And I think it was the morning of
graduation of graduate The day before the board it had one of their meetings.
D
Don Gustafson 56:05
And one of the things that was decided as well, we have to approve these and, and so I
think it was that morning I got a note. Yes, I had been promoted. But you know, it rankled
a little bit. And but on the other hand, partly because of that, the faculty committee got
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ready and start I got to business and be laying things out about the kinds of things okay,
let's see what else happened during the the big thing and one ways within the department
is we had a whale of a farewell dinner for Chris luck. I was chairman of seeing the end up
being chairman of the in terms of arrangements and so on. And and, of course, the
highlight of it was that Carl was to speak We didn't talk to Carl badly, but Carl wants to do
something dreadfully academic. And he read a public paper about some aldermen. And
we wanted to hear of some of the great stories that he might have had.
M
Michael Lansing 57:19
I heard there was beer at that party.
D
Don Gustafson 57:21
Not that I recall, but I don't think so. Maybe afterwards. But it was a wonderful send off for
him and, and he appreciate, by the way, something else you know, as you all you people
have been here I've been I've not gone anywhere. As far as academics in conservative
those first years. I went off to a association of Asian Studies. I even was part of a
presented a paper in Boston in 1969. I think. I soon realized that that conference was just
too big as far as I was concerned. It But it was about that time that the University of
Wisconsin began with crew to be a wonderful South Asia conference every fall of starting
out me. Well, it had there'd be four to 500 people coming. And these are people I knew or
wanted to know. And, and so we always went to that. And my graduate advisor, regularly
called and said, well, gosh, you will stay with us, Walter. Chris, we generally did.
D
Don Gustafson 58:32
Let's see what was. And then here the Midwest, we had something called something
called a Midwest historical con. It was pretty well that proved to be primarily
D
Don Gustafson 58:44
the Twin Cities and some of the outlying colleges. And there would be a fall in the spring
dinner, and somebody would read a paper and we bet IT department, people from other
schools, which was the only time I've been in
D
Don Gustafson 59:00
You know, we're in that kind of atmosphere. That Let's see, what else did I say something
about, okay. I'm not a conference person. I haven't given you a chance to ask a question
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for a long time. That's all right. That's all right.
M
Michael Lansing 59:22
Um, what what have been the most significant changes in the department? over your time
here?
D
Don Gustafson 59:30
Well, here I go back to myself. And I wouldn't mind to mention it when I came back. From
graduate school, though, I wanted to do this expansion of your Of course, when I also said
we've got to provide a seminar experience for students. And well, and I think I don't
remember if I think it was in the fall of 67. seminars became part of other requirements. for
graduation. And let's see what other kinds of things are. We at some point also in this case
you've ever wondered. I think it was when we had to pare it down to nine to 16 courses
and should have courses have different numbers and so on. And so then we, we came up
with this scheme that we currently are using the 100 level courses being the survey 200
level courses, of course, being to us survey by the way. When I first came to Augsburg, soft
freshmen were not permitted to take the US history course. And only primarily as I
understood, because freshmen came and they couldn't imagine doing anything but
setting American history. So to keep them from So, so it became sophomore level courses.
D
Don Gustafson 61:01
And then the first half of the 300 courses were they to be they were to be the US courses.
And the second half of the three hundreds were to be ancient medieval history. I think the
second of the first half of the four hundreds were to be Asian, non Western. And the last
half of the four hundreds to be a seminar and and and it had the misfortune for
misfortune of students assumed that 400 level courses were harder there. And I think it
was the third year that Jensen insisted people weren't taking her China class because it
was listed as a 423. It had to be put down and so it became 323. And we didn't fight those
things. I mean, she made her feel better. And so what year did you all come up with that
system? I don't know. But I could if we looked at the catalogs all part, I would guess it was
early 1970s or 1970. somewhere.
D
Don Gustafson 62:15
But we had also, we also had agreed that what we should do is provide general coverage
of time wise, at least for the Western world. By the way, and champion last night, one of
my, one of my China, people said, When are they going? Are you people going to offer an
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ancient China course as it will be interesting, but it's not likely. Anyway. Other changes you
know, they must have been so subtle. I wasn't aware of that. I don't remember when
internships became a popular became a possibility, but they were there. I can't remember
who for I think Carl was responsible for certain teachers until I got the table I think Orla
was for a while to and then I got the job somewhere about 1990. Well, it might be
worthwhile to have a second interview where we ask you questions about the 1980s and
1990s.
M
Michael Lansing 63:41
I'm wondering what kind of hopes and aspirations you have for the future of this
department.
D
Don Gustafson 63:46
Hey, just survive.
M
Michael Lansing 63:48
How do you mean?
D
Don Gustafson 63:51
You have any hopes because I think things are going so well right now. I mean, you see,
that's why I'm not a good leader. I don't have dreams. Oh, back to the 70s. Another thing
different about, you know, in the late 60s and early 70s there was a real valiant effort on
the part of some people to to maintain the kind of social community that I suspect that
the college was for many years. And I know my wife was involved in we had a tab of
family Valentine's party, progressive dinner one evening and I can remember we always
had a family Christmas Party, which eventually became better Because there were too
many, too many people, too many kids and so on. But it was great fun at times.
D
Don Gustafson 65:08
And they're there they developed a a faculty wives reading breeding group. It still isn't
exists. It's almost everybody who's part of that group now is it back it would, but it is down
to what is it seven people or something. But people. People just wanted to be together
and they were looking for opportunities for that.
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D
Don Gustafson 65:39
Well, Phil, we want your voice on here. You must have something you want to ask me.
P
Phil Adamo 65:45
No, I've been thrilled and fascinated to hear all of all of these different stories. So I'm, I'm
good.
M
Michael Lansing 65:54
I think that this is probably a good time to stop and we'll think about maybe doing
another interview. Spring where we cover some of the other topics.
D
Don Gustafson 66:03
Okay, okay,
M
Michael Lansing 66:04
it's not all right?
D
Don Gustafson 66:05
on there's up to you. But I think though you were right on that we are that. You know,
you've just got me fired up, but you two have been sitting there having listened to all this
work for.
P
Phil Adamo 66:17
Oh no, it's been it's been great.
M
Michael Lansing 66:19
It's been great. Thanks so much for it.
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