Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever e... Show more
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever else you want to
share?
Zan Christ 0:20
Yeah. So, like you said, I'm saying, Chris, born July 9 1984, in Fargo, North Dakota. I don't know
what you want to know. But, you know, I can tell a little bit A Brief History of my life story now or
later on.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:39
Well, so what about if we start talking about a little bit about your childhood? So... your
childhood, (clarifying), so where did you leave or go to school? And what do you... what do you
recall about your childhood?
Zan Christ 0:54
Yeah, so like I said, I was born in North Dakota and then I moved to Minnesota. I was four years
old. And I grew up in Alexandria, Minnesota. It's a small town, about two and a half hours
Northwest on I 94. And I lived there, you know, from age four to 18 most of my formative years,
and had a good upbringing. I mean, Alexandria, if you're not familiar with it, it's, it's very...
People are very similar, like, most people are white, most people are Christian. Most people are
really conservative. So it's, it's very much a sheltered upbringing. But I, you know, I, my mother
was an educator, fortunately. So like that was really helpful. Having her and she was she was
very liberal too, so that really helps as well. But yeah, so I had a great childhood. In my
neighborhood, I used to hang out with the kids a lot in my neighborhood. My dad was a pastor,
too. So across the street we had another pastor's family Caitlin a group of kids and then five
houses down there was like another pastor and kids so it was like this pastors kids
neighborhood, I don't know some crazy so we hung out a lot. And that was really fun.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:23
So, you mentioned that your family's christian, right? So, what will you say about your family?
like, did you family have a special traditions like any special traditions, such as, maybe things
that they did on holidays, birthdays, maybe a heirlooms, like is there anything that was been
handed down from generation to generation?
Zan Christ 2:45
Yeah. So... my dad was a pastor. And my family comes from like a line of pastors. So, she went
to send me Mary actually here, Augsburg used to be a seminary before the undergraduate split
off and now Luther is the seminary. So, my dad actually went to school. There are here I guess
you could say. And so there's his brother, and my mom side of the family. I come from her
ancestors were Lutheran pastors too. So that's kind of like something they handed down to me
in a way, kind of because, you know, that's just my family. what they've been doing for like their
occupation. is being pastors, I guess. So. That's why I think I'm really interested in religious life
because it's always been part of my family on both sides since my family came over from
Norway in Germany, which I can talk about more later in depth, but I would say that I mean, so I
think they've always been really involved in church. If they weren't like an actual pastor. They
were like a leader. So like, church organist I had my mom was a church organist and like a choir
director and my grandma's dad was a church organist, too. So I think that that's maybe what
they were passed down to me for, like traditions. It's just like the religion of like being interested
in religion as part of a big part of your life, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 4:20
So, um, you mentioned that then you grow up in religion, right? So, if you have to describe it,
what was your religious life growing up? Like maybe a change maybe it was always the same.
Maybe, it was an event that make you change your mind?
Zan Christ 4:43
Yeah. So growing up, I was involved in the ARCA church, which is what Augburg is affiliated
with. So Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which a lot of Norwegians and Germans as
well are and so um, you know, I was really involved in church. You know, I was like a Sunday
school teacher. But I think, you know, when you get to your older teenage years, you start
questioning the religion that you're in, because you're like, you don't know who you are your
identity and you question everything and you're trying to figure out who you are in the world.
And so, I pretty much toward the end of high school was just like, I don't know if this is for me.
And so after I graduated from high school, when I started to when I was in college to become an
atheist, pretty much so that was my life for eight years. I was just practicing nothing, and
eventually converted to Islam and graduate school. So, it was a long path, but I started in high
school just thinking like, do I believe this stuff because it just felt like not a good fit and people
just like didn't have like the answers that I was looking for. If they did try to explain it to me. I just
was like, I don't really think I believe that. It just seems like who I am or, it doesn't make sense to
me so
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:07
And since you said you convert to Christianity... (Restating the question) from Christianity to
Islam, so how was that transition? Like, was there anything that made you uncomfortable at the
beginning? And if so, how you handle it?
Zan Christ 6:21
Yeah. So like I said, I went from Christianity to atheism. So I was converting from atheism to
Islam. So, I mean, for me as an undergrad student, I went to Hamline University which is a
Methodist school and I went to there because they didn't require you to take religion classes.
So, I was like, I really want to be, you know, running as far away as I can from that. So, I ended
up becoming a world religions major though, so academically, I was still like interested in
learning about world religions, but it was just like an academic endeavor for me. And then, so I
took that Islam class, but it was just like a class was, you know, I wasn't really drawn to it at that
time, it was just like, another subject area because I, you know, like I said, growing up from
where I was, I didn't know anything about the world. So it was like, Okay, I'm just learning about
the world because I don't know about it at all. But then by the time I was in grad school, I, you
know, I was like, still trying to atheist thing but I was just, I don't know, being atheist. I was really
unhappy, like really depressed because I had nothing basically, you know, it's kind of like
growing up. You have like with Christianity you have like a community of people, where you go
to church on Sunday and like, go to events and stuff. So, I really think I really missed that aspect
of the religion is just like, being with people. And so, I really didn't like being atheist either
because I felt like I didn't have any meaning or purpose in my life because I'm like, "Well, I don't
believe in anything now". But, and then also just like didn't have a community. So that was like a
struggle that I did was Good for about atheism. But then, finally when I was in grad school, I met
some Somali and Pakistani students who those are Muslim majority of popular countries and
they really just like took me under their wing and you know, I just became like close friends with
them and never for a second to they try to convert me, which I think is like the best way to
convert somebody because growing up you know, people try to like force Christianity upon me
and I really hated that like that really pushed me away. So, the fact that they were just like good
people like was what drew me to like look into Islam. And yeah, I just started like, researching it
on my own and my friends like some of the had to go back to their home countries because of
their visa type. They're only here for a semester. So, that was like really good because then I felt
like they left so I could really just have a look at it by myself without their influence and Yeah, I
just started reading about it. And like, I watched like this, these music videos that I really liked.
because music is such a big part of Christianity in the church that I was like, well, I really, like
really love music. So I wanted to make sure I could still have that part of my life as part of my life
anyway. So, that's like.
Barbara Sabino Pina 9:21
And what makes you feel so attracted to this new religion? When was when was the moment
you said, like, Oh, this is for me. This is my right place.
Zan Christ 9:29
Yeah, exactly. So I think like the people that I met, really exemplified Islam versus like,
Christianity, like this is the United States. It's a Christian majority country, but I feel like a lot of
people are just like, secular Christians are like, just Christian by name, but not actually living it.
And so I think, people it's just like a status symbol, like, Oh, yeah, I'm Christian, but they don't
practice at all. It's like basically, they're atheists, too. So I think growing up like a lot of people
that I knew just, I don't know, they were just not really educated about their faith and not really
living it. And so like meeting these Muslim people, they were like, really knew about their religion
and took it really seriously. And were really like devout. And that really struck me because I
don't know, they just had such a good character that really just inspired me because there were
just so nice and giving. And, they were just like, give you things, just because they're nice
people. Like, I don't know, growing up, my family would never do that. I don't know, I think...I
think it's a cultural thing, too. It's not just religion, but part of it is religion. But I think, you know,
European Americans are very individualistic, so they're not, they're very much like about
themselves. Hence the word individualistic individual, and I, you know, Pakistani, and Somali
people are from collectivist culture. So it's all about like your community and so people are just
more open. And sharing and that's like a cultural thing. But it has to do with religion too. But I
think just their kindness is what drew me to the religion. I was just like, well, they seem so
happy, you know, like I want to be happy too. And they're just so giving and growing up, people
aren't as giving like that I was used to. So I think just the people is what really drew me to the
religion.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:23
So you mentioned culture, right?. So what are a few common misconceptions that people have
about Muslims?
Zan Christ 11:31
Yeah, so many, especially in the media, I think Islam is like one of the most hated religions right
now. I mean, it's... In the United States, our president even is just so terrible. "Donald Trump"
...for future if you're listening in the future and don't know what I'm talking about, but I mean,
even just trying to put in policies to like, you know, band people like and that's just so
unconstitutional and, you know, people just they hate what they don't know. Like they the fear of
the unknown, basically. So I think, you know, they just don't know, Muslims. I mean, Islam is the
third largest religion in the United States, but it's like less than 1% So, you know, it's not like
people know a lot of Muslims I don't think so. I think people just believe what they see on like
Fox News, and it's just like, all negatively portrayed, but I think like I went to Pakistan a couple
of years ago and you know, we have like black lives matter here and like people are shooting
like black people. So, I think people think like America is a dangerous place or whatever. And so
people just have like misconceptions about different people in parts of the world. So I think we
receive media from parts of the world we're like, obviously stuff like that is happening but like
here, people like see like shootings all the time. People think that's America. So I think, you
know, that's probably where like, the Islamophobia stems from but I think I have so much
negative activity to, to try and like, correct, I guess, from the media.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:15
Yeah. So did you or have you ever experienced any type of stereotype about you because of
the way you dress? Maybe the way you look? Maybe because you did this transition? Have you
ever experienced something like that?
Zan Christ 13:30
Yeah. So what was the beginning of the question? Just like, have I experienced,
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:33
like any type of stereotype or prejudice? Yeah.
Zan Christ 13:38
So, my, my own family, you know, they weren't thrilled that I converted to Islam, obviously,
letting you know that I come from like, generations of pastors, you know, I mean, obviously, they
take the religion that they are in very seriously and it's like, you know, it's part of who they are,
and... so I think, you know, having children and having your child convert to any religion, I'm
sure it's super hard. So, I don't blame them at all, but I'm just you know, so it was not easy for
them. When I first started hanging out with these friends, my mom was like, kind of telling me
not to hang out with them a little bit. And so, you know, that was kind of hard. She herself is
from like a small town in North Dakota. So, you know, Alexandria, like I said, is very... kind of far
away from like, the Twin Cities but like, a small town, North Dakota is even more excluded from
like, I think, a major city so I think, you know, that's kind of why she was more cautious. But
anyway, so that was like one thing where my family wasn't, you know, excited that I was
hanging out with these people and then when I did convert like back then I was on Facebook.
I'm not on Facebook anymore, but back then I was. And basically, I like announced that I was
like converting to Islam and I was inviting people to like my ceremony basically, it's called the
"Shahada". And like, I did it on like a group chat. And I only invited some people, mostly
Muslims, and then like some of my family, like people who I wanted to come, and my dad was
like, don't do it. And like that was like crappy. So, I like shut my Facebook down immediately
after that, and obviously did convert like I was in grad school, so I'm like older you know, so I
can do what I want. Um, so that was another like negative experience, my family. And then after
that... after I converted... My niece was having her baptism. And I don't remember who did it but
either it was my brother and his wife or my parents. But basically they asked me like not to wear
the "hijab" in the church to like the baptism. I think my parents were the ones who asked me
what they were like asking for my brother and his wife, I can't remember but either they
delivered the message or they are the ones are asking it. But, so that was like really crappy
because, you know, I just converted so it was like really excited to be Muslim. It was a huge
positive change for me. And for them, it was kind of like, they didn't want me to be, you know,
Muslim in public, basically, like, stay in the closet. Like, don't be yourself. So, that was I didn't
like that. But, I I called up my friend, one of my friends from Pakistan, and I was like, What
should I do? You know, because I was a new Muslim I, you know, I didn't know as much as I
know now, like, I wasn't solid in my faith. And, and they were like, well, if your family asks you to
do something, and that it's not against Islam, you should honor your parents. And they were like,
just take off your Hijab and I was like, are you sure? You know, because I, you know, I'm like,
excited to be Muslim. I want to be Muslim, but it's not required to wear a headscarf in Islam. And
so they were like, just take it off. And so I was like, okay, so I basically took it off for the church
service and then put it back on afterwards. So that was like, a really negative experience of my
family. But, I think, you know, they know not to do that now. And also, I know that I, I don't
know... I should probably should just wear it... I don't know, like, so I think we're more, "okay
with the situation". But, I won't forget that experience. And otherwise, I mean, you know, one
time we were pulled over by Homeland Security when we went to when we went to Canada,
when we came back to the United States we got pulled over so that was really not a great
experience. too, which I feel like wouldn't have happened if we were not Muslims. But those are
like some of the negative experiences they had. They're probably more of like micro
aggressions, but I can't remember them.
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:14
What about good experiences since when since when you convert to Islam... to Muslim? When
do you feel like "oh my god I can I can I feel like this is incredible." I'm feeling this is a great
experience. I feel like I'm gaining a lot from this place.
Zan Christ 18:32
Yeah. So I think when I converted, like I said, You know, I was in grad school and I went to
school in Mankato, which is a small town and when I first got there, like I didn't know anybody
because you know, you're going to school at a new place, you know, no one and I am an
introvert. So, you know, I can struggle with making friends because I'm like, "socially awkward"
or whatever. So that was like a struggle for me. But I think, you know, a lot of the local like white
people were not actually like open to being friends with you because I think Minnesota can be
really cliquey, like people just hang out with people that like they've known their whole lives. And
it's kind of hard to break into, like, if you're not from there, but with the international students,
they were just so open to being friends and so I think, for me, it was just positive because it's
kind of like your new family or whatever. And so that was like I said, what drew me to Islam and
like what kept me there is people just so kind I don't know, it's, it's so hard to describe, but
they're just so giving and they give you like all this food and clothing and gifts and you're just
like, "Oh my gosh, you're so nice". I don't even know. So I think that's what drew me to the
religion and kept me there because people were just living Islam they had such a good
character and they were so kind and hospitable and I just really love that feeling. I don't know...
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:04
Since you were both Christian and Islam... at one... like in some part of your life. So, I see
there's like a relationship between Islam and Christianity that deserves carefully exploration for
many angles. So, how does the average Christian relate to the average Muslim? And how could
the Christian begin to convert in a respectful manner with a Muslim about matters of faith?
Zan Christ 20:30
Yeah, just like how to hit interfaith dialogue or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I think you
know, depending on who you are, I think we can be relatively easy just come with an open mind
and know that there's going to be similarities and differences. I think people get really hung up
on the differences but, you know, especially maybe like a world religions major like Islam,
Judaism and Christianity all are so similar to each other, like I am studying Hinduism right now
just for fun and reviewing, and it's so different, like, in a lot of ways so I think you know that
Islam is so similar I mean, you know, Mary, there's like a book in the Quran named "After Mary"
and she is spoken so highly of and she's mentioned more in the Quran in the Bible. So I think
that's like an interesting fact that like, Christians don't know. But I think people really get caught
up on like the thing about like, that Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet and like a messiah
and like a messenger from God. But, Christians think that Jesus is God. And I think they so
many people obsess about that, that really like that's just one difference. You know, like, there's
just so many similarities that I think just trying to follow is on similarities. But honestly, one of my
best friends is Christian and what we talked about, it's just like regular everyday stuff we don't
even like talk about religion and I think that's how you should have interfaith dialogue with
people is just like focus on your humanity because everyone loves eating, love sleeping loves
their family, you know, like just basic like human stuff, or like sports or music or whatever you
like. So, I think that's, you know, just connect on a human level and just let your friendship grow.
You know, that way, I think is as the healthiest way to talk about interfaith dialogue as just have
an open mind, I guess, I don't know and accept that you just will have differences. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 22:46
Totally agree. (laughs) So, is there anything that you learn from Christianity or from any other
religion that you still conserve today and maybe you apply to your this new religion to Muslim, to
Islam?
Zan Christ 23:01
Um, I mean, Christianity is such a huge part of Islam anyway. So, it's kind of just like, you're
adding on to what you already know or what you already believe in. So, I mean, I don't I can't
think of anything like specific but I don't know. I don't know, for me though, I don't know,
because I left is Christianity. I don't want to say it's like a negative experience, but like, I don't
actively go for that like, like my niece and nephew sing in church all the time. And, I go listen to
them saying, but every time I go into the church, I kind of would rather not go so I don't know.
So, it's kind of like, I don't know if I would word it of like, I take from Christianity, I don't know
because I kind of still kind of like to go the opposite direction, but I don't know. Yeah. That's a
hard question (laughs) I don't know. I have no idea.
Barbara Sabino Pina 24:07
Totally fine. So, um, is there like maybe an advice or something that you would like to say to
those people that asked you convert to Islam or dead are in the transition of converting for an
any other religion to slam?
Zan Christ 24:24
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was really difficult process because, you know, I mean, I was a
student so I think your life is a little crazy on your students really overwhelming time in your life
because your life is so focused on studies and it's so demanding. So, I think that was hard
because you know, all of my resources, we're also all students, so we're all like overwhelmed.
So, I really just need a lot of support like, when you first convert to another religion, you need a
lot of support, but you're not always able to get that because everyone's kind of busy. So that
can be kind of stressful. But just keep trying, I guess. I mean, I don't know. Try and look
elsewhere for resources eventually. I mean, my life is a lot better now because I'm married,
honestly, I mean, but that's not always going to work for everybody but I think I found somebody
who is Muslim and so like he's like my not my whole support system but like a huge support
system that when I was single, I didn't have so eventually you know, I graduated from with my
master's degree and then I met him so that's like how I I really felt like supported in the end
otherwise, just being a single person and depending on like your friends in school they're also
students was just it was pretty difficult. I mean, especially because you're learning so much like
how to pray that was like...the probably the most difficult part about converting is... you have to
learn the whole prayer in Arabic. And so that's stressful. I mean, I don't know the language at all.
So that was hard. Because one of my mentors, you know, was busy all the time. So I think that
was just a struggle, but just keep trying, you know, don't give up (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:20
So let's talk a little bit about your job right now. So, how do I just think your complex identity of
being European or American convert to Islam might help you or have helped you to make a
change in the world and how your daily job of multifaith work is related to this?
Zan Christ 26:41
Yeah, for sure. So, right now, like, I am kind of trying to like start my own business and like
brand of doing like multifaith work. My last job was that I was working on a college campus as
their multifaith leader working college students. So, that was like my last job. So, you know, it's
very much what I like to do what I do. And so what I'm wanting to do now is like go to
workplaces and teach them about like religious diversity and like how to be an ally to like
interfaith co workers. So that's what I'm working on right now. And I think, you know, I've done
trainings like, at my two jobs before this one that I used to work at the Science Museum, and I
did trainings on like, Islam and Muslims, and people just really don't know anything about Islam,
and they really crave that knowledge. So, when you teach them just super basic information, it's
huge. So I think that's, you know, I'm a bridge builder or whatever. I mean, that's really cliche,
but it's true. I mean, I kind of bridges the two worlds and I think, you know, most people in the
workplace in jobs that I've worked are also white people. So, I think having another white
person, teacher them, unfortunately, like they listen to me more, because you're kind of on the
same level of them. So I think it's really helped because I'm kind of like helping them figure out
like, Oh, what is this Islam thing? What are Muslims doing? So, I think it's an advantage in a
way, but it's kind of sad, you know, because it's racist. But, I guess I'm doing good. So it's not all
bad. So, I think it's a big advantage of bringing this life mysterious religion and culture to people
that may have an upbringing like myself, you know, where you just don't have exposure to any
type of diversity at all. So,
Barbara Sabino Pina 28:41
So basically, you talk... you talk a little bit about this, but like...when you do this talks, what is
your message? What is the message that you're trying to send? In... What...do you want to be
remembered for?
Zan Christ 28:57
Yeah, I just want to teach people like interface literacy and cooperation, just teaching them
basic information about world religions. I mean, 70% of people living in states are Christian. So
most people are Christian, or at least, you know, were raised in it, and maybe they're not
anymore. I just want to teach them basic information about like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism,
Buddhism, you know, other major religions and teach them that those are normal people,
normal religions, and just try and teach them literacy because I think people are really
uncomfortable talking about religion. I think especially in the past, because, you know,
expclusivism was really kind of a dominant thinking. And now people are more moving toward
inclusivism and pluralism. So, you know, pluralism, you know, if you are the listeners, I don't
know, or not familiar with pluralism. It's kind of like being more open and accepting to other
points of view versus like exclusivism, which is my religion is the only right one everyone else is
wrong kind of a thing. So I think the world is moving toward that but they just don't have the
knowledge to understand like specifically what other people think so I think that's pretty much
what I have been teaching people and continue to teach them and also learn like I said, I'm
diving into Hinduism right now like again, and it's it's really fun just learning about another world
religion that is not my own, I don't know because then I can understand people from around the
world.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:37
What approach you will do when you're trying to maybe get to other people to learn about new
religions, not just about Christianity, or maybe Islam, maybe about other religions, what would
you...What will be your approach to them, like how you will approach them so they can listen to
you instead of being rejected about what you're saying?
Zan Christ 31:01
Yeah, I mean, so like one present. Like I said, the presentation I'm working on right now is like
how to be an ally to your like interfaith coworkers. So, I'm kind of going through like, because
most people have jobs most people work. So I figured that's a good place to like target people
have teaching them about world religion. So I'm going through like, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism,
Hinduism, and then like a whole bunch of other world religions, like sikhism, and behind and like
teaching them about like workplace accommodations and that really helps because people
know then like, what kind of combinations they have to offer people. So like dietary restrictions,
you know, clothing, prayer and gender relations, like a lot of people don't want to like shake
hands or touch people of another gender. So, that's kind of like how I'm teaching them is like,
basic practical things day to day, not Like, necessarily like philosophical or like theological
things, I think that's really helpful to teach people because it's just more practical knowledge that
they can actually use day to day. So that's kind of what like, the presentation that I'm working on
right now, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 32:17
Yeah. And since your time talking about presentations, projects, these things, like what project
maybe organization, maybe congregation, maybe part of just a big thing. Have you done? Or
have you been part of that you feel most proud of?
Zan Christ 32:35
Yeah. I think, you know, my last job. I worked at Hamline University and I did religious diversity
work there. So I really loved doing that.That was kind of like my dream job. But I guess, I don't
know. Two other things I'll mention...Well, during that, like I did, like a TEDx talk. I don't know if
you saw like the link and the bottom of my email signature, but like I did a TEDx on, like my
conversion story, basically. And that was something I'm really proud of, because the TED talks
are kind of a big deal. So, that was during my last job. So that's been like one of my proudest
achievements and I talked about, you know, everything I pretty much just talked about now, like,
"world religions are great, you should respect them, learn about them" um before then... I would
say the best experience of my life would be that I served as a guest Imam and Khatib at the
women's Mosque of America in Los Angeles, California. So again, that's when I was still a
Hamline. And so, basically, I love public speaking and I had donated some money to this
women's group, and they had sent me an email saying "thank you for your donation" or
whatever. And I recieved emails and backlinks. You know if you know any like that women's
leadership conferences I can attend or speak out, let me know. And they're like, why don't you
come speak here and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever, what are you talking
about so. So, anyway, so I spent like seven months researching a few topics and then
eventually, like, wrote the speech. And I went there and gave a Khutbah like a sermon like a
pastor would do in church on Sunday for one of their Jummahs services. And so that was just
the best experience of my life I, you know, really enjoyed. I think just writing the speech was
really helpful because I got to research a topic that I didn't know. I knew about it, but like surface
level knowledge or had heard things and I wanted to research them myself, and like really learn
in depth, that information so I wrote about women's empowerment within Islam. And the
recording is available online. If you're interested in listening to it, I think only like 20-30 minutes
but so that was amazing. Just doing the research alone, even before delivering the speech was
just such a phenomenal experience. Because I felt so empowered within my own religion and
then going there and delivering it and all the women gaining the knowledge too and being with
like minded women. I myself am very liberal progressive for thinking left leaning, which is really
a minority in Minnesota. Most Muslims are quite conservative, which is really difficult for me,
because I can't really be out as like a liberal and if you are people really just let you know that
you're wrong. And you're just like so that's really difficult, because there are a lot a lot of liberal
Muslims that live in the United States in the world, but there's not really a locally here. So, that
was really nice to just meet other people who think like I do in Los Angeles. I mean, California is
a lot more liberal anyway as a state but so that was amazing. And meeting the founder, she's
just phenomenal. I got to hang out with her. So that was the best experience of my life and I felt
like a continuation of like my family lineage because they were like all pastors. So I was like a
new Imam just for like a day. So that was just phenomenal. And then before then, my best live
experience before then was working at the Science Museum. I needed a place to pray and they
didn't have one. And several places that I worked at before then had places to pray. But this one
didn't, I was surprise. So, I worked there for two years on this project, and basically, I built a
quiet space there. So that's a huge accomplishment that I also felt really excited about because
I needed a place to pray. I wasn't the only one. So, I felt like the secular multifaith quiet space.
And, you know, it was like a prayer room and since I left, they've built two more spaces there.
So that's been phenomenal. But basically, I built like a Masjid or like a secular Masjid, Masjid is
a place of worship for Muslims, but that was, you know, like one of my ancestors, I think it was
like my mom's mom's dad's dad. He was a pastor in North Dakota and he built like 11
congregations in North Dakota, he died young, and so like, I felt like also like it was a
continuation of his legacy because I kind of felt like, it wasn't like an actual church, but it was like
a prayer space so people can pray every day. So those are probably like my proudest life
accomplishments is the TEDx being a Imam for a service and doing this. And then building a
quiet space would be like, all very interface initiatives.
Barbara Sabino Pina 37:47
So, you mentioned the talk.... the TED talk, can you talk a little bit more... a little bit more about
it, like...you mentioned a little bit how was experienced with maybe, what was the talk about
what did you what was the message you sent, how... a little bit more about how did you
prepared? Who helped you maybe a fact, fun fact about the experience.
Zan Christ 38:10
Yeah. So as somebody who has loved public speaking for a long time, I think doing a TED talk
is like the ultimate like, you've made it. It was a TEDx, which is not as cool like a TEDx
independently organized, but so. So,for years, I was like, "I really want to do something" and
then I was working at Hamline, which is also where I went to school. And some of these
students were like, we're gonna put on a TEDx conference, and I was like, "I have to apply" and
someone who like nominated me too, and they're like, "we heard that you are amazing. You
should like apply for this" like, and so I applied and it was a phenomenal experience. When I
first applied. I thought my topic was going to be, I wanted to do, how Islam and Muslim how
Islam and Mohammed or feminis. But ended up you know, my student actually it was all student
led us to college students, which was a really phenomenal experience. They were just amazing
students who organized it. But anyway, so one of the students that was like my mentor, she was
a college student and she was trying to help me with my speech. And eventually, like, I changed
my topic a whole bunch of times, because people pretty much when they meet me, like, only
want to hear about my convert story, which is fine, but like, that's the most fascinating part about
who I am. So that's basically what she convinced me to like talk about and so I talked about, like
my conversion story and, and then I kind of tried to like frame it in a lens of like, interfaith work is
important. You should be an ally into like, all world religions. So that's, that's pretty much the gist
of my talk. It's 11 minutes, so it's really short. So it's not like painfully long for people to listen to.
So that was the experience and It was phenomenal. I have like 20... 200,000 views or whatever.
So it's doing pretty well. But yeah, it was a it was a huge privilege and honor I was really grateful
to be selected. It was really competitive. But... yeah, the students were it was it was really
interesting being mentored by student you know, because usually, like I mentoring students, so
that was like, Cool role reversal, like my sister was assigned to. She was so talented and like, I
just felt like she was like a college professor. She's so smart. So I really I loved working with her
and I'm glad she, you know, helped me to like craft my topic because you know, if that's what's
most interesting about me, okay, fine, like I'll talk about that. But it's sometimes I get tired of
telling the story again and again, because it then it's like, that's the only thing people are
interested in you like, maybe it's, you know, an example of like someone who's African
American. It's like, that's the only thing you know that you might focus on them, and their You
know, they're like, I'm more than just African American, you know? So that can be exhausting.
But that's okay (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 41:08
You mentioned also the Science Museum, right? So, um, what did you do there? Like, what did
you learn? Well, how was experience? What would you like to share about that?
Zan Christ 41:17
Yeah, I really enjoyed working at the Science Museum. The company itself is just phenomenal,
the culture is positive when I was working there, but like I said, you know, we didn't have a place
for me to pray. So that was just like something where I was like, "I'm gonna do this", like no
matter what, and I had like a low level job, but like, I was like, I don't care. You know, like, just
because I have a low level of power doesn't mean I can't use my influence as a human being to
get this done. So I think that was really cool and like really empowering for me to be like, it
doesn't matter if you're like this low level employee, you can still get like amazing things done.
So that was really cool. At the time, we had just gotten a new president and she was super,
super supportive. She was from California, of course, too. So she's very, like, used to a lot of
diversity, I think more than Minnesota. I'm very liberal and very accepting. So I wanted to talk to
her and I wanted to talk to her VP of HR. And I just was like, you know, "I want to get this done.
Can you help me?" and I didn't know what I was doing it first, of course, but I was just like,
eventually, I know, I'm going to get a quiet space. I just don't know like, how I'm going to get it or
like where it's going to be. So I worked with our VP of HR most of the time on the project, and
she was just phenomenal human being like super nice. And yeah, we did it like it was just, yeah,
it was like a two year long project is a long process. But yeah, I'm really proud that I did that. I
don't really, you know, talk about that very often because being from Minnesota, it's like rude to
like brag about yourself or whatever, but I wish I would probably talk about it more because I
think more more workplaces need to have like these quiet spaces because, you know, I mean,
it's very much a secular issue to like, employees just need like a quiet place to just like chill out
like on your break or whatever. So it's not just like Muslims need a place to go pray five times a
day or whatever, like, plenty of people are into like Buddhism and like meditating and such. So it
really helps like the staff so much, like I said, after I left, they've developed two more spaces, so
they have two for employees, like internal and then they have one external for the like outside
visitors. So, you know, I influenced them enough to like build tomorrow after I left so that was
just such a positive place to be, so... I'm really happy that they were open to you
know...achieving this resource for... for employees that I think really helped a lot. I was the only
Muslim working there.
Barbara Sabino Pina 44:10
So, you have worked with a lot of people during your life, right? Doing all these awesome
projects and awesome talks. So did you have any problems maybe, on opinions,while you were
doing this project because we know that when we're working, sometimes we're going to differ in
thoughts and you need to handle it, and to meet... like to find a way to just overcome the things
and work a good thing.
Zan Christ 44:41
So, yeah, I don't know if this is a good example, but like I said, I think the hardest thing is just
being a liberal Muslim in Minnesota, because, I mean, eventually I just had to go to LA but like, I
can't always just go to LA to like, hang out with liberal Muslims. That's probably been the best a
struggle for me is just finding a community that I can fit into. Because pretty much like I said,
most Muslims in Minnesota are super conservative and I just don't at all relate to them. So the
way that I have dealt with that is pretty much I just have like, all my liberal friends are like non
Muslims pretty much so my two best friends are actually both atheists. They're both not
religious, but they're like my liberal friends, one from grad school, one from the Science
Museum. And, so those are like my two best friends. And then I have my a lot of Jewish friends
also, like really liberal. And then I have some of my Christian friends. So I think I basically like
built this community of my network of people, but they're like, not Muslims. So that's kind of
been a struggle, I guess, like, so basically, I don't know, I just have had to look for like resources
elsewhere. So I don't know if that answers the question. But otherwise, yeah, the actual projects
I was doing, I don't know. I think just finding allies is pretty much. Also Yeah, just getting out the
same thing is like, you always have people that will hate you or discriminate against you or not
understand you. But I think the biggest way to battle that is just like, ignore your haters and just
like hang out with people who accept you and love you. Because eventually either they'll come
around or they'll just like, be a hate person, like, forever, like you can't change them. So just
focus on like, people are actually positive, which is why like for me, I think I was really drawn to
working with college students, because college students are just open like it's the first time
they're living on their own for the first time they want to like from their own opinions. They don't
necessarily want to be like the same person that they were growing up so they're really open to
hearing like, any and all information then based on that all these opinions and they'll form their
own opinion. So it's kind of why I got my master's in student affairs because I, I don't know, like,
I really love college students, they're just so they're open to hear all opinion like diverse
opinions, I guess. And then based on that they're smart enough to like figure out who they are.
So I think that's pretty much what I would I put my efforts in this people were actually open to
like, okay, like, "you're different from me, great!". Like, I respect that. I'm not gonna, like hate
you, you know? Because when you do...People who are resistant, it's best to I mean, I
personally, I just don't engage with them. I think other people really like conflict and like debate,
but I'm not like one of those people. So I mean, I'm definitely Midwestern, or we do not like
conflict. So I pretty much just choose to like just ignore them basically, which some people might
say is not healthy, but I'm like, whatever works for you. This just works best for me like No, it's
just not worth to get into. I'm just like, I'm happy for you. That's what you think like, I respect you.
I think some students like, I've spoken at Bethel, which is a pretty conservative school, but I
have a lot of like five liberal friends that work there that are professors. And I go into their
classes and like this one girl was just like, definitely an exclusive is like, she was just like, you
know, my religion is the one and only one it's cracked. And I was just like, you know, thank you
for sharing your opinion. And that was it. That's all I have to say. And that's fine. You know, I
don't know if she's changed it all, but you just have to be like, respectful to people. I think that's
what really Islam has taught me is just like when people are mainly used to like, be respectful,
but it's not always easy to just be like, okay, you're listening to me. Okay. Thank you, you know,
just like, I don't know, growing up that's not like really how it was like so. Talk, like I don't know.
So that's, that's pretty much what I would say.
Barbara Sabino Pina 49:07
So your college students, so what do you feel you learn from them? And what do you hope they
learn from you?
Zan Christ 49:14
Yeah, I learned a lot from college students. I mean, especially, I mean, young people in general,
I think, you know, the world is constantly changing. And college students have so much to offer
in terms of like, they communicate differently, I think, you know, like Snapchat and like, I don't
know, they're really open to adapting with technology. I think there's a huge advantage to that. I
think you can learn so much from young people. So yeah, definitely... Like, one of my favorite
college professors is always talking about how students are teaching them, you know, so like,
That's so cool. So it's like both ways, but, I mean, hopefully I can offer them something to and
I'm 35. So I definitely think I'm glad I'm older, like, I would never go back to be young again, that
was such a difficult time in my life, like, I do not want to be on. I'm really grateful that I'm older.
I've learned a lot. So, hopefully I can offer them something too but I mean, definitely, young
people are great. Young people that keep me energized to older people, we're just tired and
tired. Anyway.
Barbara Sabino Pina 50:30
So my final question would be, how... what does faith mean for you, and how this concept or
definition has changed over time?
Zan Christ 50:43
Yeah, I think, you know, religion or faith or whatever, I think has changed for me a lot. I think.
You know, growing up you know, I was Christian and the Christian environment and then I was
atheist and then I was Muslim. And I think, you know, it's changed so much over the years. But
even just being Muslim, like, when I first converted, like, I don't want to say I took it to the
extreme, but I was trying to like be like super devout. And I realized that wasn't really right for
me like I didn't have to be so hardcore of like to do like all these things. I think it's religion is
whatever you make of it. And so, for me, I kind of I don't want to say I'm secular because that
maybe sounds negative too. But I think I am not like super religious, honestly. My husband is a
lot more religious than I am and I don't know this just like are practicing level am happy with, like
my relationship with God. You know, and I don't know how it works for me. I'm happy. You
know, like, wear a headscarf. So people can like tell that I'm Muslim. I think that's important to
me, but I don't know if I wasn't wearing it. I think people would just be like, oh, there's another
Christian or atheist girl, I don't think you could tell that I'm Muslim. So I think that, to me is really
important, like an identity piece. And like dressing modestly, I guess. But I don't know. That's
something I've struggled with too. Because I've come to a point in my life where I really like,
Miss run like tank tops and shorts, because it's like, summertime, you know, and you want to be
like that. But that's just it was like a temporary thing. But yeah, like my religion is always
changing. Honestly. I mean, like five years from now, I'm sure. I'll be in a totally different place.
Honestly, I think I'm a really open honest communicator. Like if people judge me like, I don't
care, like I'd rather just be honest. So I think I'm happy with constant change and improving
myself honestly, because, you know, I've learned so much about like, what religion is not to me,
even though I thought it was supposed to be and I'm like, whatever that stuff's not important, like
maybe to somebody but like to me, I'm just like, chill. I don't know. Whatever...
Barbara Sabino Pina 53:22
Is there anything else that we didn't get doing this interview today that you would like to cover?
Maybe a comment additional thoughts?
Zan Christ 53:31
No, I mean, I think we've covered pretty much most of my life story. Yeah, just pretty much, the
TEDx thing, the Mosque thing and the quiet space, those are like the three things that my
recent life have really defined me and really something that I'm proud of, and I want to continue
to do more work like that. I don't know what my next thing will be. But, you know, like I said, I'm
trying to like start my own business. So hopefully, I can like, tour the country or the world and
like teach people about either Islam or world religions, because I think there's so much to learn.
Because, you know, I think people really, especially in the United States are really just not
exposed to the world's. I think depending on where you live some other places in the world,
you're a lot more exposed to like the rest of the world. But I think the US we have a lot to learn.
So I'm excited to try and like, teach what I can and also be open to learn from other people. So I
don't really have anything else to add that we havenât talked about
Barbara Sabino Pina 54:40
We're looking forward to that. Looking forward to that, to see you doing more job and awesome
things in the future. So thank you so much for your time today.
Zan Christ 54:50
Thank you. It was fun.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from... Show more
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota, but originally my
family's from a city in Somalia called Kismayo. They immigrated here about
25 years ago to America, but specifically Nashville, Tennessee, and after
living in Nashville for about two months and hearing that there was a
growing Somali community in Minneapoli, they moved here on their own like,
besides the asylum, they were given to Nashville. And once they reached
Minneapolis, they lived on Franklin Avenue for about two years.
Sahra Tobe 0:58
So you spoke a little bit about your family coming to the States. How long
ago did they come?
Salma Ahmed 1:04
Yeah, well, they came about 25 years ago, it'll be 25 years on August 31,
2020. I know the date specifically. But, um, ya know, so they came here
because of a civil war that was growing in Somalia, it wasn't not a
growing, but like a civil war that still continues to happen till this
day. And so by that by the time it started, three of my older siblings
were already born. And they had my, my other brother was on his way. So a
couple years after, so still couple of years before they came to America,
but they didn't want to raise their children in those conditions. And
like, obviously, they were looking for them to have the opportunities that
they were given growing up, and if not more. So once they came here, they
settled down on Franklin Avenue, like I said, and they lived in a
townhouse for a while, then after that they lived in another house. And up
until like our current house, so they were like lucky enough to have a
house built for them by Habitat for Humanity in like city center,
Minneapolis.
Sahra Tobe 2:18
And you guys are currently at that house still?
Salma Ahmed 2:20
Yeah, we're still at the house. So like, it'll be 20 years in this house
this may.
Sahra Tobe 2:25
So quickly, I kind of want to ask you a little bit about the neighborhood
that you grew up in. What was the neighborhood like and what do you
remember about it from your childhood?
Salma Ahmed 2:36
So it was always a predominantly white neighborhood still to this day it's
predominantly white. It's just it's just growing out to have like more
immigrants, more people of color in general. But I didn't go to school in
the area myself like I went to school in Minneapolis, I grew up in
Minneapolis Public Schools, but like my older siblings, I live right next
to a high school called Roosevelt High School, but don't come to my house.
I'm just kidding. But um, yeah, so my older siblings went there but like,
just like with like, a lot of other like city center high schools, like
becomes really dangerous, like fights break out and like parents, parents
don't know why that happens. So they just take their kids away from the
school. So I went to a high school still in my area, but like a little bit
further away called South High School. But yeah, like growing up in,
growing up in the same district, I always like went to school with like,
predominantly people of color just because of like geographically where
they were located. And it just made more sense for those demographics to
come to those schools.
Sahra Tobe 3:42
So can you speak a little bit about you said your family decided to come
to Minnesota because of the growing Somali community here. How did that
contribute to your childhood was it Do you remember like maybe being on a
lot of Somali people you when you were younger? Did that does not occur to
you as much as it mattered to your parents? What do you remember of that?
Salma Ahmed 4:05
Um, okay, well, what I remember was like of course my parents always cared
about like being around like, people that were similar to them just
because like who doesn't want to be around someone who really can
understand their experience where they don't have to explain why things
are the way they are too. But like my parents cared mostly about like
being around like other Muslims because like when it comes down to like it
no matter how much someone is similar to you like if they don't have the
same faith as you then like, you're not the same. But so like, for me like
as a kid, it didn't really matter to me I didn't like make many Muslim
friends in school however, like I always went to Dugsi, which is like for,
some people don't know what Dugsi is. It's like Sunday school, but on like
the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And essentially, you learned the Quran
like, mainly memorization like I know is like, I don't know if it's like
every Muslim community but in the Somali community it's very, very, very
focused on memorization. And yeah, so memorization and then also like some
Islamic studies but it's like mainly memorization like learning like
having homework, and then passing it to your teacher we call it like
basically teacher testing on your memorization like how you pronounce
things. There's this thing like in the ruling of the Quran like reading
it's this thing called Tajweed. So you kind of get tested on, Tajweed is
like grammar and so you kind of get tested on like how well you know your
grammar how well you memorize and things like that.
Sahra Tobe 5:35
Yeah, so in terms of going to Dugsi and things like that, did you, how did
you feel growing up balancing school five days a week and then also Dugsi
on the weekends?
Salma Ahmed 5:46
So I, I didn't know, I didn't balance it. So I didn't realize how much I
actually had on my plate until like, I was like in early High School,
maybe Late Middle School because it was just such a routine from such a
young age like you be essentially essentially start going to Dugsi like
when you start going to school like around five, six years old. You start
like learning your alphabet you start learning like small words like an
English terms this is but so I really didn't know how to balance it
because it was like all I ever knew. So I never knew like a free weekend
or like I never knew like a sleeping in morning because every day like I
was on the go. And it wasn't like, I favored one or the other. Because
like me, I love Dugsi, like growing up. I know, like a lot of kids that I
grew up with even my siblings. They didn't like love Dugsi, because like,
Oh, it's like very firm. It's not as easy as school where like American
school you have like a lot of leeway and like you have like recess and
lunch time and I mean, lunch is not a privilege, but you know, it becomes
one when you have recess with it. But, um, so yeah, like I loved it
because I was really good at memorization. And I was always, like,
appreciated by my teachers for like, being good at it. And while like, I
was good at school, like I it was just like you were among the other kids,
like everyone was good at school, like it's hard not to be good at third
grade multiplication because like the teacher, if you're not good, then
the teacher will make sure you catch up to be good, you know? And so Dugsi
like wasn't like that because there was like always, it wasn't age based
It was like more like level based. So once my mom realized like I was like
actually doing well in Dugsi, she put me in an accelerated program called
Tahfeed. Where like you're in Dugsi for like your whole day. This is like
also why I didn't know that I was like, handling it. Because I was so used
to something like my I was in Tahfeed like, from the age of nine to I
would say maybe like eight to 11 because um, like, it, Okay, so first it
was accelerated, but also like, it really like tested your knowledge which
I like I really like to be challenged when I know I'm good at something
which is kind of egotistical to say but I'll say it but um so yeah so
you're like challenged and also like you learn more than just memorization
of the Quran but like Islamic Studies and like you're also with people who
like also enjoy Dugsi because there's like Dugsi you can survive like not
liking it because like your parents send you there you can like pass your
Ashar, Ashar is what we call the homework but you can pass your Ashar and
then like go home and like move on like get to your next day. Like in
Tahfeed, you can't not want to be there. So that's why I liked it because
my peers were like just as interesting in learning the Quran and the Deen.
Deen is like our faith. Deen is like what we call it Islam. But um, so um,
yeah, like so that's why I really liked it because like, it was so it was
so fulfilling. To like, know that, like I love my faith and like I've
loved it from like a really young age I've loved learning the Quran and
I've loved like learning about the Deen because I just find it to be so
just and so right like, and I'm so happy like I was born into Islam. So
when like I had classmates and peers who enjoyed it just as much as me.
And I can't share that like relationship with kids at school because like
I said, Before, I wasn't friends with Muslim kids at school, or I can't
share with like my siblings, since they didn't like Dugsi, like me and my
older sister were in the program together. But we also have like a four
year age gap, which is what I liked about the program like you were tested
on your knowledge not your age. And school kind of limits you in that
aspect, where it's like, you can't just be smart, it's you're in this
grade. So like, this is the level you're at, and it was never like, hey,
like you're so smart. Like let's challenge you in this aspect. Elementary
School, nobody's trying to challenge you. Like Middle School, no one's
trying to challenge you. You really only have like room to challenge
yourself once you become an adult. So and like, you can't beg for a
challenge because once it gets too hard, then it becomes 'oh, but you
wanted this'. So that's what I really appreciated about Dugsi growing up,
it was like different in that aspect from school.
Sahra Tobe 10:09
You spoke a little bit about being really good at Dugsi to the point where
your mother had you moved up into like an accelerated course.
Salma Ahmed
Yeah.
10:16
Sahra Tobe 10:17
So that shows that, like, a certain level of like, involvement from your
parents on your parents end. Would you say they were as involved in like
your schoolwork and things like that?
Salma Ahmed 10:29
Yeah. So growing up, like, each of my parents kind of had like a focus.
Like my mom, she's, um, she was always invested in like my Dugsi learning,
making sure I learned the Quran like even till this day. Like now I
finished the Quran and I don't go to Dugsi anymore. But my mom she's
always like telling me like I should read because, like, I don't want to
like get punished for like learning something and not utilizing it, like
utilizing the resource that God gave me. And so, like, I appreciate my mom
in that aspect because she's like, involved in every aspect of my life,
like she cares about a lot about my schooling, but she herself wasn't
given that much of an education growing up, so she couldn't help me as
much. But like she always like was trying to like give me resources like
send me to the library to learn. Like, I'm always like, asking, like, for
tutors for me, like she was always like vouching for me and like, kind of
like, being my lawyer, like in my educational life, whether it was Dugsi
or school, but my dad, he himself, like, cared a lot about Dugsi, he's
like involved, he was always like, taking us and picking us up and
whatever. But he cares, like for sure a lot about school. Like, my
education, like my dad's always asking me what my major is, like, what my
GPA is, what I'm planning on doing with it, just like making sure like I'm
driven in school, but um, and like not to say my dad isn't as religious as
my mom or like, he doesn't care about the Deen as much as my mom is just
that like he himself works at a school in Minneapolis Public Schools, so
like He cares. For sure, like education is what he's geared towards, but
like he also wants me like be a good Muslim like practice and pray and
things like that. But like my mom for sure is active in like Dugsi more
than school, because that's like what she knows most.
Sahra Tobe 12:18
So do you think that your parents involvement differ between like you and
your, like your older siblings and do you think it connects to like how
long they've been in the States?
Salma Ahmed 12:28
Yes. 100%. Like, I really appreciate like my stance in my family because I
know it's so different from my older siblings. Like, out of the eight kids
my mom had, I'm the sixth so I have two younger sisters and then five
older siblings, and out of all of us, just me and my older sister finished
the Quran and that's because of like my mom's opportunity to be so
involved in our, like, Islamic education. So, like 100% I think it differs
because of like, they couldn't worry about putting food on the table,
while also worrying about if you pass your Ashar that week, which is not
to say that like, it was by choice or anything like that, but it was just
like is very difficult like trying to vouch for your livelihood with also
your, like children's education, you know, like things that are more like,
less of like a commodity, you know, like, you know, education is really
important, but that's definitely, you know, a privilege which, you know,
like, not everyone has. So it's, it's very, very difficult. Like, I know,
my parents are much more involved even in the way that I saw them raise my
older siblings, like from young kids, like I've been aware of how they
were raised. And like, I know, I'm raised in a more... I have more leeway,
let's say like then they ever had, like my parents were very firm with
them because like they're more scared of the world of what they didn't
know. And so I think that contributes a lot to like the education I've
been given. Both with Dugsi and with school. Yeah, for sure.
Sahra Tobe 14:06
And then earlier you spoke a little bit about how you didn't feel like you
were like you were busy with both Dugsi and school until you got a little
bit older once you did begin to get a little more busy, what kind of what
were your responsibilities kind of looking like, I know you said you have
two younger sisters and just going to school and Dugsi and how that
differed from maybe some of your classmates that didn't have to go to
school on weekends. As you said earlier, you didn't have a lot of Muslim
friends in school. So as you got older, you had a lot of a lot more
responsibilities and things to deal with how how kind of was your
experience with that?
Salma Ahmed 14:49
So yeah, my Like I said before, yeah, I do have two younger sisters. And
thankfully like I haven't had to be like, extremely responsible for them.
Because our age gap is so small, they're only two years younger than me.
They're twins. So, like, I've had to be like somewhat responsible for them
just like being mature and like being the next one in the house that like
sometimes I would have to like babysit them like, just things like that,
but it was never like, I was never like, held accountable for them. Like
my, some of my older siblings were held accountable for me and them. So I
definitely think that that contributed a lot to why I always felt like
nothing was like so overwhelming because my home responsibilities were
like, really like minimal in comparison to my siblings. So when I looked
at my classmates, who weren't Muslims responsibilities, I just thought
they were extra chillin. Like I was chillin because I didn't have, you
know, like these responsibilities that non immigrant kids don't have any
way. So like, I would just think about it in a way like I'm not even
overwhelmed because I don't have younger siblings to look after. I don't
have bills to pay. You know, like things like that, but I still had to,
like, clean and like make sure everything was okay. But even those
responsibilities were minimal because I had the comparison of so much and
so little. So like, what I had to go to Dugsi and school, like for my own
education for my own well being was like, if anything, I was thankful like
that I only had to worry about my homework for Dugsi and my homework for
school. Like it was it like it definitely gave me like, some perspective
and it made me like more appreciative as a person because because, like, I
know, like, things could be completely different because I've saw them be
completely different.
Sahra Tobe 16:37
And then, so as you move up in your education, like high school and things
like that, did you see your social circles kind of changing in any way?
Salma Ahmed 16:47
Yeah, for sure. Um, so like, I have like Muslim friends just from Dugsi
itself. But um, I, in high school, I actually had to move away from like
my non Muslim friends. Because like, they just like, it didn't go from
like oh 'hanging out' it was like they're kind of drinking and like, doing
activities that I as a Muslim like it was contradicting with like who I
was to the core, which was a Muslim. So they kind of like made the
decision for me really like to make Muslim friends so like, that's when I
made Muslim friends and thankfully, I went to like a well versed high
school, high school, so it wasn't like difficult to like make Muslim
friends and it wasn't the fact that I didn't know other Muslims or like, I
wasn't cool with them. It was just the fact that we just never ended up
being friends. And so Um, so yeah, like, I just kind of like started
making the connections I already had and like furthering them so yeah,
like that's, that's the time when I kind of like realize like my, if you
you are who your friends are. And if your friends like aren't-- I'm a firm
believer of that, of you are your friends are because if someone's
character like completely contradicts your own, then how can you like
stand by and like, let them be that way? Or like, you know, like, kind of
per- make that permissible, you know what I mean? And so, um, so yeah,
like, that's when, like, I realized, like, it's really good for me to have
Muslim friends because, like, that kind of limits the temptation of sin in
my like, specific case, like, I didn't want to ever be tempted to do
something. And like, while Muslims are also sinners, you know, like, at
least like, I wouldn't have felt peer pressured by the people I was
friends with, like, they were doing something and I would say, Oh, I don't
want to and like they wouldn't say why not because they know I'm a Muslim.
You know what I mean? Like, every time I felt like, every time my non
Muslim friends were doing something, I'd say I don't want to they'd say,
Well, why not? And I have to explain my whole faith again, and I'm like,
everyday explaining my faith like a scholar. I didn't have the time.
Sahra Tobe 18:53
Did you, um, So you talked about how that was kind of the driving force
for you to to kind of cultivate a group of Muslim friends. Did you have
any experiences with maybe your Muslim friends looking to engage in, in
the quote unquote, regular teenage activities?
Salma Ahmed 19:08
Yeah, for sure I um, Yeah. Like, you know, like, that's when I really
realized friends come and go. Because like, it kind of gets to a point
where it's like, yeah, okay, like you respect that I don't want to do it.
But like, then it's like, we don't even hang out anymore because you're
doing something I don't want to do. You don't want to do what I'm doing.
Because it's not that these regular activities or whatever, so kind of
just becomes like an ongoing loop of so like, you don't see each other
anymore. And then just naturally, people grow apart based on things like
that. So I'm like, thankfully, I'm like, I've always been like, kind of,
well, like grounded in my own headspace. Like, I've always had a good head
on my shoulders because of my older siblings. Like when you see other
people in your life that you care about, like making mistakes, or like go
through things that you'll probably go through just because it's like the
Circle of Life here, whatever anywhere. You kind of like expect that. So
then like when it comes and happens to you kind of like know how to handle
and you kind of you know how to get through it. So that's what like, why
never felt belittled by people telling me 'Oh, you're not like willing to
do this, you're not willing to do that' like, because I'm really not. And
I know you're gonna ask me if you almost feel like a psychic. So, um, so
yeah, like that's kind of what guided me like really was having older
siblings that went through the same life as me here, like I know it was
probably way more difficult for them because they they were literally
taken from the only life they knew like, I mean, they were all super young
when they left but it was all they were familiar with. And coming to like,
here, which gives you a complete culture shock and like with parents that
have never experienced anything like in the slightest of that way, like
they're just kind of focused on surviving. Like, it's really really hard
to guide so thankfully I was in that position. I just kind of watched it
from hindsight.
Sahra Tobe 21:06
Do you, are you still in close contact with your siblings and how's your
family life like now?
Salma Ahmed 21:12
Um, yeah, so all my siblings are old people. So um, my oldest brother is
35. And yeah, he's married he lives in Minnesota. All my siblings except
for one live in Minnesota. So my oldest brother Yeah, he lives in
Minnesota. He, I'm, were, in like pretty close contact, like not on a day
to day thing. But like, we have pretty good relationship. I ask him for
like life advice. He, he loves school. He's like my dad. He's always
talking about, like, what I want to do, how he's like making connections.
So I have like, a little bit of an easier experience, which like, he's
always been, like, helpful, like with things like that. He's always like,
kind of like couple steps ahead. And so he's always willing to help me
with anything I need. And he's like, always trying to like move mountains
for me. So it's super nice. And then I have another brother, aw this makes
me sad, and then I have another brother who's also married. He's not as
helpful- I'm just kidding. But yeah, I definitely see like the difference
in maturity between my siblings just watching them. But yeah, my other
brother, he's also married, he lives in Minnesota. He works. We have a
pretty good relationship. Like it's not like anything like where like, we
talk on a day to day basis either. But, um, he has like, for sure, like
flaws that, you know, like I kind of have a hard time getting over
sometimes just like in general, like, you know, people aren't, you, you
don't get to sculpt people in your life, how they are like your family's
your family. You don't get to choose them for a reason. But um and then I
have another sister, she's the one who doesn't live here. She lives in New
York. We have an amazing relationship. She's actually like, one of the
closest people I have in my family. She's like, a great person and she
like, honestly, she's like my second mom, like she for sure guided me more
than anybody else like, my brothers like yeah, like they, like I kind of
looked at their experiences but they didn't guide me in any way like, you
know like they're kind of boys will be boys and boys take a longer time to
grow up but um yeah like she's like for sure yeah she's like for sure like
contribute a lot to the kind of person I am today. And like yeah we talked
very frequently especially considering the fact that the only contact we
have is like a phone but she like visits a lot and like I visited like the
place she lives so it's cool. And then I have another brother who's like
he's like still growing up. Like Like I said before boys take way longer
to grow up and girls and what I've seen, especially in immigrant families,
and so like, I haven't like taken anything from him to be completely
honest. Like he's in my like, headspace. He's kind of like, the same age
as me. If not younger than me, even though we have like a seven year age
gap. And then I have a sister like, I'm the closest with her out of all my
siblings. She's four years older than me. She's the one I mentioned before
like that we went to Tahfeed together. But um, she, yeah, like, we're like
very close. Sometimes, like, my other sister makes like jokes like I'm the
older sister in the relationship just because like, in any aspect of my
life, I'm like a realist more than anything, like more than an optimist
more than, like, someone who like uses their imagination alot, whatever. I
like, I see things for what they are and like I don't try to like let
emotions cloud my judgment. And so she's she's like more of an optimist.
So that's why it's funny that like, she's asking me for advice and stuff
even though she's like, ahead of me in life. And then I have those two
twin sisters I was talking about earlier and like, when people say the
youngest and families like are definitely the same and no matter how old
they are, like, I definitely see that especially my own family. Because
like, you know, they're like tested the least, they have like no one else
to look after which, thankfully I didn't have anybody to look after but
they were so young to not see my other siblings grow up that they're kind
of like, still like looking for guidance, which like we all try to give
them as much as we can. But yeah, like all my siblings, like we're in
pretty good contact but there's for sure more I talk to most. Like
especially like the three I live with. I talked to them more frequently
because I see them the most frequently. And my sister in New York, I see
her or I talked to her the most because if not, then we don't have any
contact and you know, boys will be boys.
Sahra Tobe 25:36
So, you spoke a lot about your relationship with your siblings. How is
your relationship with your, with your parents? And do you feel like
there's a tight relationship there as well?
Salma Ahmed 25:47
Yeah, I I for my mom and I, we definitely have a tight knit relationship.
I'd say especially like considering now that I'm older, I can definitely
admire everything she's done for me and I can appreciate it. Which like, I
always have known, like, the place my mom has my life like she's always
been held to high esteem in my head. But the only thing now is the fact
that like, she can, like talk to me about like, the problems she's having
and things like that where I'm like more of an adult. Like, she doesn't
put weight on me or anything but like, it's, you know, like, she makes it
more clear she doesn't like shelter me from things like she used to, which
I appreciate because like, I hate feeling like, babied, especially in
situations where like, I can fully comprehend like I'm a full functioning
adult, you know, but um, like parents don't see that all the time. I mean,
like, even like in immigrant families sometimes they'll treat you like an
adult sometimes they treat you like a child, which it doesn't really make
sense because pick one. Like sometimes my mom will tell me I'm 25,
sometimes she'll tell me I'm 12 but um, even though I'm only 19. But, but
um so ya no, my mom and me, we definitely have a tight knit relationship
like considering everything, she's like, always like been, like I said
before, like vouching for me and like always been like a great resource to
me like in any way she possibly can, she always tries to like move
mountains for me. My dad and me we have like a pretty good relationship
too, like now that I'm like growing up more like I definitely see like the
flaws he has but like he's like still a great person like the older people
are the more they don't change. So like I try not to hold him to to like
much of an expectation either like I don't want like to be the reason that
he's unhappy because I expect him to change but he's been like this for
the fifty-four years he's had kids. So like yeah, we're also pretty
close, like he knows about like, the things that are happening in my life
because I try to like keep him involved. Because I never want him to feel
like I'm like looking at him as just like another parent like second to my
mom when like it ends up being that way anyway because my mom so involved
like, voluntarily and like sometimes I have to put him in the loop. But
um, yeah, like, my dad for sure like tries to be involved in our lives and
like he tries to like, help with what he can like financially and things
like that. So I appreciate that a lot.
Sahra Tobe 28:14
Do you remember your family having any, like special traditions or kind of
a little get together things that they did? Like maybe on holidays or
things like that growing up?
Salma Ahmed 28:24
Yeah. So my family we're like, very, like religious family, like my mom
like, we never like really celebrated birthdays or anything like that,
like because not like, through my parents and my older siblings would
celebrate birthdays with us, because like, they saw other people
celebrated birthdays, so they would try to like, make our transitions like
smooth, you know, like, between, like, the different worlds we come from
or whatever. But um, ya no, every year since I was like a kid. My dad's
sister lives in Minnesota as well. So she would invite us all over for
Thanksgiving. But it wasn't like we were celebrating Thanksgiving, we all
just happen to have the day off. And she would make like Somali food, not
like Turkey. So like, that's the tradition we've always had just because
all her kids were off of work and school. And so were we. And my dad was
off of work, too, because he works at a school. So he's on the same
schedule as us. So it was always really nice. So I would always look
forward to that, because like, if I didn't get to see them often, like
because people's lives got busy, then I would know that we'd see each
other on Thanksgiving
Sahra Tobe 29:29
Do you remember what your parents did for living when you're growing up?
And like, do you remember maybe like,
Salma Ahmed 29:34
what they did for what?
Sahra Tobe 29:36
For a living like,
Salma Ahmed 29:36
oh, for a living? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my mom, she always stayed at home
because she like, for like 18 years. She was raising kids. So she, oh,
yeah, she stayed home like she didn't like I said she didn't really get
much of an education like she didn't get an education at all in America
besides like, some ELL classes she took for a couple of years when I was
younger and then she was like, always worried about like us not speaking
our native tongue. So we would always speak Somali in the house. And that
was like the main reason she stayed at home because she didn't want us to
lose our language. Because she was afraid that if she, if she worked, or
if she like, went to school and stuff, thankfully, like my dad, like,
worked a stable enough job where we didn't have to, like depend on the two
incomes. But um, yeah, she was, she was always worried about she was
always worried about us and losing our native tongue. And if we talked
only amongst each other, we would talk in English, because that's what we
spoke at school. And so like, it's funny because even though I grew up in
America, like was born and raised here. When I went to school I only spoke
Somali because I wasn't allowed to speak English at home. And that was
like up to until like, the age of like, 15 we weren't allowed to speak
English. And so, my dad though he always worked at an elementary school of
like, as far as like, I can remember, he worked another job before I was
born, but I can't remember what it was. But I remember he, he's always
been like the liaison for like, Somali students, but he also like he's
really really good at math. And that's always been like his main strength
so he also helps kids struggling with math. So he's like kinda like a math
teacher for elementary kids. So it's like nice that's why I was like
always accelerated. And I'd be like math 90, reading 40. I didn't know
English but I knew math. But um, yeah, so yeah, those were the main things
that they did for a living. It's kind of funny now to say my mom's a stay
at home mom cause, like, she stays at home for herself now.
Sahra Tobe 31:42
So going off of you speaking about like wanting to keep your language and
how that was a big part of your upbringing. I know like your, your mother,
that was a point of like, a point of importance for her there. Did you
ever feel like growing up like you were juggling your identity as a Somali
Amerian, did you ever feel at times that maybe one was slipping?
Salma Ahmed 32:01
Yeah, I for sure hated speaking Somali. Yeah, no, I like I was ashamed
because it sounds like sounds so ugly. And when my mom like we would be in
stores and me and my siblings talking English my mom would say 'no like
you see people speaking Spanish, you see, you see like all these people
speak in their native tongues and you guys are having them understand your
conversations like, do you see how stupid you look?' And she was not lying
because like people were really all up in our business when we spoke
another language so now like I'm for sure thankful because I know like,
I'm very fluent in Somali now where like, a lot of my peers aren't, even
my younger sisters. Like they still kind of struggle with Somali and they
kind of like pronounce words wrong, just like grammar errors but um, yeah,
like I'm very, very thankful now because, like it's a strength to be
bilingual and not a weakness, but I always found it to be a weakness. But
um, that's like, part of the reason I struggled was because like Like I
said before, like kids growing up would tell you, like, oh, you're not
even from here obviously. And I'd be like, why do we speak another
language, if we're American? Like it did not click for me, I'm like, What?
Is this just me? But um like, also like part of my tradition like, I,
like, traditions, I should say, like, I would hide from my kids at school
and stuff just because I didn't want to be different, so bad, because
like, they made it be something so negative, but like Now, obviously, like
with life experience, wisdom, and all that jazz, you realize that like
being the carbon carbon copy doesn't like get you anywhere, like, even
when you're applying for jobs, they want something different. So and they
want someone who speaks another language, someone who can like reach
multiple communities. Whereas like, if you only speak English, and you all
look the same, then what's the, what makes you yourself what makes you an
individual?
Sahra Tobe 33:49
So that, so you spoke a little bit about your, your, your identities as a
Somali and then as an American, how did your identity as Somali and Muslim
translate in your life? How did they maybe coincide or contradict?
Salma Ahmed 34:04
Yeah, I feel like for sure they always like aligned for me. Just because
like, I've never met a Somali that wasn't Muslim. I've always been like,
able to at least like if I didn't have like this I would at least have
like Somali people, you know what I mean? So I, I always like grew up with
even like at Dugsi, like I didn't go to Dugsi or our local Masjid, they're
all Somali, like, things like that. I always feel like those two
identities kind of went hand in hand for me like, sometimes when like, my,
like, culture would contradict my like, oh, like, Somali dance, Somali
music like that would contradict my religion. I'd be like, kind of
confused, like, when we were younger, my mom would play like Somali music.
And I would like learn in Dugsi that music was haram. And I'd be like, so
Somali music isn't haram. Because like, I'm like, there's no way my moms
playing music and this was like, I'm thinking like parents have no flaws
at this age. So I'm like, I know my mom would have played music if it was
not haram. Yeah. So I said, hmm, I put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and I
realized moms can be sinners too. But now it's funny because I brought
that up to my mom the other day and she's like 'I was learning too', it's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 35:22
So, it sounds like your parents definitely played a large part in your
upbringing. Did you know your grandparents, or great grandparents?
Salma Ahmed 35:30
No, actually, I've never met any of my grandparents. My dad's parents, so
his mom died when he was four years old, and then his dad died when he was
18. And then so my mom didn't even meet my dad's parents, but my mom's mom
died in 2013, like September 2013. And then my mom's dad died in 2016
actually, when both my parents were gone in England for my brother's
wedding, so like, we never really got to grieve my grandpa's death,
because like, my mom was gone. So yes, like, I never got to meet them. So
like now like when I like see people like having like, relationships with
like their grandparents or like, it's like, either like when they have
relationships with their grandparents I'm like, so happy for them because
I'm like, wow, like, that's such an amazing thing to be able to experience
like, I know, like some people like they consider their grandparents like
more of like a contribution to their life like than their parents. So it's
like super interesting to see. But like also like, the same thing I'm
like, when people don't appreciate their grandparents, I get upset because
I'm like, please appreciate them. Like they're only here for a certain
amount of time, just like the rest of us, but they're also here for such a
short amount of time, so it's like, yeah, I have like I have those
emotions about that.
Sahra Tobe 36:48
So did you, I know we spoke a little earlier about your father's sister
that would invite you guys over during like Thanksgiving time. Do ou guys
have any like other cousins or other extended families, you guys, like
regularly got together with and how did that, how did that kind of play
out in your life like growing up?
Salma Ahmed 37:11
Yeah, so um, my father's sister she has a lot of kids, most of our kids
are like, a lot older than me. Her youngest son is actually like 31 he's
as old as my sister that lives in New York and then her oldest son is like
45 I want to say like they have their age gaps aren't like insane, but
like in comparison to us, like they're a lot older than us. So um, so
yeah, they it was actually my nieces and nephews, my cousin's kids like in
my culture, consider my nieces and nephews because like your cousins are
like your siblings in comparison instead of like, great cousin, whatever
second cousin and all that but um, so yeah, we would all get together
because all of her kids except for her oldest live inMinnesota. So it was
more like I was getting together with like my aunts and their kids instead
of like my cousins and their kids because, you know, like, my cousins are
so much older than me, I saw them as like parent figures. And so it'd be
super nice to see all of them because all their kids are like, around my
age and around the twins age. So they would come over too because they're
all off of school. But most of my like my dad's family, live like around
the world. Like, he has some family in Toronto, like my dad has like
mostly brothers, except for his one, he only has one sister and then the
rest are brothers. So he has brothers in Toronto, and then Saudi Arabia
and like Abu Dhabi and United Arab Emirates, and then also a brother in
Birmingham. So like, we don't get to see them frequently but like they
visited us and like I'm like connected with all my like cousins on like
social media and like sometimes we talk but it's just like, like knowing
like they exist is like super nice like having cousins around your age,
especially girl cousins, super nice and so. But my mom's side of the
family she um, she comes from, she doesn't come from a big family. My
grandpa actually like he was married twice. So his second wife has like
younger kids than my mom. So there's like a lot of them like, they all
live in Somalia. And one of my mom's older sister's daughter actually
lives in Sweden. So my mom is like, trying to go to Sweden now. It's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 39:34
So, circling back to your experience in school, I know you stated earlier
that you preferred math over reading etc. What else can you recall about
like how, how school was for you? Especially like having the guidance of
your older siblings and kind having already that community from Dugsi
maybe that translated over and what also are you up to now?
Salma Ahmed 40:00
Yeah, so school is like, I always enjoyed it. So but my favorite was
middle school because like, I was always like super like soft spoken like
super like insecure about my identity. But like middle schools when I
really realized like I was happy like with who I was like, where I came
from things like that, which thankfully it happens sooner rather than
later. I know for a lot of people are not as thankful, I mean, they're not
as comfortable. Yeah, like around that age. Like that's what I feel like
insecurities kind of grow. You know what I mean? So I was like, Luck that
mine were kind of chilling out at that age. But so yeah, so I school was
always I don't want to say a breeze. But it was always like something. It
was like nonchalant, I was nonchalant about it. Like, I did it. I wasn't
like completely invested. Like also I was good at it. So I didn't hate it.
You know, like, like I said before, I'm kind of egotistical, I only like
what I'm good at, but um yeah like that's when, that's like, why I liked
it. Like, in high school, I was in the National Honor Society. So and
like, none of my family members were in that, so I was really like happy,
like, I love like when my family like see something like and they're happy
for me because it's like something that they're unfamiliar with. Like I
know like a lot of times like when I'm good at something my other siblings
good at it like my parents like they're like oh, okay, like that's a
regular thing like it's the norm for us, you know? So I liked high school
a lot because I was kind of like, more well sculpted in like who I was.
And like, I was good at school, I was taking PSEO classes. And I just felt
like so like in control of my life. Like for the first time I was like the
driver. And I knew like where I was going, I wasn't using GPS. And yeah,
like now I'm in college and I'm kind of using GPS again. So, like, right
now I study computer science. And like, I don't know, like, that decision
was kind of like erratic, I don't know, like, I don't completely enjoy it,
I first started because of like, the problem solving aspects and like, you
know, like, it's really like exhilarating when you're good at or like when
you solve a problem that you see on your own, like, you don't need help.
Like, it's, it's just like, it's a really good feeling. But I'm now like
I'm realizing like, there's not much like, there's not much to it, like
you code and then you move on, like, I and I don't like what my whole life
to be just like, coding, you know. And like, I feel like in any aspect of
any career, like or any career that I intend to go into. You don't like,
you don't want to like just code. You know what I mean? It's just, it's
not like, it doesn't sit right with me thinking like I'm working towards.
I'm just coding working towards a job where i'll just code. Like that
doesn't sound fulfilling to me at all, which I'm not necessarily like
going to school to like become fulfilled by a job, but it would be nice to
not hate myself. So, yes, and right now I'm like looking into other
majors, possibly Management Information Systems because it kind of like
uses, like the coding that I already know with also, like, management
aspects and like analyzation and like critical thinking where like, I'll
actually be able to use the frontal lobe. I would not use it if I was just
coding.
Sahra Tobe 43:25
So um, going a little bit, going a little bit more into your experience in
college so far. You are a sophomore, correct?
Salma Ahmed
Yes.
43:31
Sahra Tobe 43:32
So do you have you maybe felt like some of the peer pressure from maybe
High School has been maybe like presenting itself in college as well maybe
just like in other forums? Or like, how do you feel your social life is
now?
Salma Ahmed 43:49
I feel like my social life now is like, fairly well, like, I haven't had
like, issues with like friendships and things like since I was in high
school, so like, I'm thankful one I have like, been able to, like, make
good friends in school, but like, also have like good friends outside of
school. So it's like a nice balance of the two and like, yeah like,
socially like, I feel fine. However, there's like always like the, the
'teenage activities', like people aren't teenagers anymore, but um the
activities of like of students or whatever that like linger. And so
actually, I find that in college, they applaud you for not partaking in
their activities, and like they almost like give you like that, 'Oh,
you're so innocent, don't do this kind of act', which is almost worse than
the peer pressure I experienced in high school because like, they think
you don't do stuff because you're naive instead of like, wise, you know, I
mean, so like it really like it's just kind of like an ongoing loop of
what? But, but um, yes, like, I like I definitely come across people like
doing things that I personally don't do or won't do or will never do. So.
So it's like, it's definitely interesting to see like, the different
reactions you get, though, because like, people have been like offering
out the same things for the past five, six years. It's just now that they
offer it in different tones and different reactions when you say no or so
it's funny. It's funny. Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 45:18
Do you do feel like yourself becoming stronger and more grounded in your
identities the more that you experience kind of these invitations or is it
the other way?
Salma Ahmed 45:29
Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of do kind of like, I'm still the same
because I find that like people when like they, when they applaud you for
not doing something they're just insecure. Like, they themselves don't
know why they're doing what they're doing, or it's like they themselves
fed into peer pressure. So they're kind of just like, taken aback when you
like, think for yourself because they didn't do that. So it's definitely
interesting to see that like, I'm this way because I wanna be this way,
but you're that way because your friend said so or like, it doesn't really
make sense to me because I know like some people like it takes longer for
them to digest things than others or like some people weren't offered
these things like they went to Islamic school or whatever, you know, like,
whatever walk of life you're from. However, like, if you're gonna think
for yourself, you'll start thinking for yourself now because like, this is
like, your formative adult years. So I don't really like I don't really
know. And I don't really feel like as bad as I do for people now when they
like kind of get themselves in situations as they did in high school.
Because now you've like, now you've like seen things, you know what I
mean? Like now you like this is what you chosen. So like, yeah, like I
feel more strong willed than I did before because of that type of stuff.
Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 46:50
So now moving forward, where, where do you see yourself? In the next- I
know this question sucks, I hate myself for asking you but I'm going ask
you anyway
Salma Ahmed
Okay
47:01
Sahra Tobe 47:01
and this is in terms of like your school, in terms of maybe who you are as
a person, in terms of maybe your relationships with people, different
people in your life things like that. But where do you see yourself
ideally? Maybe in the next two, three years, three years?
Salma Ahmed 47:18
Oh, okay so only two I thought you were gonna say five or 10 I don't know.
Um, yeah, next two, three years. Yeah, hopefully like see myself graduated
with a degree hopefully I see myself out of school not doing homework. But
yeah, like with a stable job hopefully like if it's two years from now
then I won't have graduated yet. Like hopefully with at least a job offer.
I hope like I'm really strong in my Iman, like more than I am now. I hope
like I'm like more certain of myself like I feel like I'm like fairly
confident now. Like there's always room for improvement in any aspect of a
person. So yeah, like I definitely hope to be like more stable I hope to
be driving my own car again like I was in high school. But um yeah, no I
and I hope like I'm learning something that I care about. And like I'm I'm
confident in what I'm learning. So yeah.
Sahra Tobe 48:13
Do you have anything else you want to add, any closing remarks?
Salma Ahmed 48:19
no no closing remarks but I will tell you like, my like situation of like,
my like immigrant story, my Muslim immigrant story, Muslim in Minnesota
story is like, I know like very different in comparison to other people
like the generation now growing up like my younger sisters like years of
schooling is like completely different than mine. Even if they are in
like, similar shoes as me like with older siblings, and like couple of
younger siblings, like I definitely say like this is it's a very specific
situational story. So I think it's interesting what this is doing what you
guys are doing.
Sahra Tobe 48:59
Thank you so much for joining me
Salma Ahmed 49:01
You're welcome. This was fun. Thanks for having me. It was an honor,
pleasure.
Sahra Tobe 49:08
Thanks so much for listening, bye-bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing ... Show more
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in
this oral history project. I want to remind you that this may be published as part of the Oral
History Archives project at Augsburg University. And I need your permission to record this
conversation. So, do you agree to be, for this conversation to be recorded?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:46
Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:47
Okay. So why don't you introduce yourself and just say, when and where were you born? And
whatever else you want to share about yourself?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:55
Okay, thank you, Barbara, for the opportunity to be here and share with you. My name is
Nasmath Amegankpoe, originally from Republic of Benin in West Africa. Born and raised in
Benin, as a Muslim. Since 2001, where I migrated here to US following my husband. So,
currently live in Minnesota, and that where I've lived since 2001 with two kids, two young adults
(laughs). Yes, and I'm a registered nurse by background.
Barbara Sabino Pina 1:37
Um, why don't we talk a little bit about since you mentioned your family, um, why don't you
introduce a little bit about your family? Like, maybe your parents? You have any partner, or your
children?
Nasmath Aldrin 1:54
Yes, absolutely. I was born in Benin. And my mom actually is the elementary school teacher. My
dad was an accountant. He's passed away now since 95. And so I just grew up in, you know, in
a Muslim family, Muslim environment, Muslim culture. And married actually, right as I was
moving to US, and so been living here since 2001 with my husband and my two kids.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:30
Beautiful. Um, so you mentioned that you were born in Benin, or the Republic of Benin, long
time ago. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your childhood, like, where do
you... like the neighborhood, you lived in? How did the people look like around you? What type
of culture do you experience growing up? And things like that?
Nasmath Aldrin 2:57
Absolutely. Growing up was a lot of fun, really different from US, I have to say. Just in the fact
that we went to school, of course, it's a topical country. We went to school in the morning from
eight to twelve. And then we came back home, we walk pretty much all the distances, didn't
have to ride a car. Well, you know how to take that bus. My dad does have a chauffeur-driven
car, but some-sometimes when he's, you know, he wants to, you know, just wanted to play this a
little bit, they will drive us to school, but otherwise, it was walking everywhere. And which, which
was a good thing, really. And, you know, the places also was very nice around the house, you
know, family were over, pretty much every day, the weekend. There was always something in
the neighborhood, we were just, you know, it was a, the neighborhood itself was a big, I will say
big family, you know, big family member or we could be in anybodies house, you know, and
without any worries. And any, anybody in the neighborhood or, you know, parent, we're
considered our parent. So you get in trouble anyway (laughs). It follows you (laughs), you can't
really (laughs), you can't really get away with anything, but, you know, it was a lot of fun, you
know, play and of course, we had to be at home for our daily prayers, you know, so, the school
schedule was perfect, and at the same time, you know, on weekends, we, we went to our
Islamic school to learn about our faith. And, and so, you know, mainly. But very fun, a lot of fun.
A lot of activities just between each other. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 5:05
Awesome. That sounds like a lot of fun. Um, I'm wondering, so you were mentioned, you
mentioned a little bit about your neighborhood and a little bit about, like, how you will gather with
your family all together. Um, so I'm wondering since you said that you move you now move into
United States, but you were born in Benin. Why did you come to America? Or how did that
process go? Was it your parents who brought you here? Was it you came here for yourself? A
little bit of the process of the immigration process?
Nasmath Aldrin 5:42
Yeah. Actually, in college, in my first year in college is when I met my husband, my, you know,
current husband. And so we met and I came here actually following him. I was still finishing my
school, when he moved to US. So about two years before me, he moved to us, following the it's
called "diversity visa". And so he came in, it was just a natural thing to follow Him. When I was
done with my bachelor.
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:21
Awesome, do you know, did your husband ever told you like, why the United States? Was it like
an opportunity he had here? Or? Like, basically, why specifically, the United States out of all the
countries?
Nasmath Aldrin 6:40
Yeah, good. Actually, it was a time where Bill Clinton, you know, was the President of the United
States. And he started a program called "diversity visa". So basically, they extend to different
countries around the world. Certain amount of visa is also called "lottery visa". And that anyone
who, you know, played that year, you know, there was a certain amount that was allocated, and
my husband happened to play that year. And he was a chemical engineer, he graduated and
was just had just started working. And somebody talked to him about the lottery visa. And so he
really liked it, because he had always wanted to go abroad, you know, and he wanted better
things for the family. He wanted to go abroad. And so when that opportunity came, he played,
you know, this lottery visa, and he won, you know, he was one of those people that were picked
for that year to get that visa. And so that's how he came here. And of course, naturally, when I...
I wanted to stay back and finish my degree. And so I followed him as soon as I was done.
Barbara Sabino Pina 8:05
Awesome. And go, how was that process? If you don't mind me asking, what...after he came
here was he the one who requested you to come? and How long did all that process take?
Nasmath Aldrin 8:20
Yeah, it was um... Yes, he requested me to come. Of course, he has sent like an invite to, you
know, for me to come and how long it take, I think he will know better (laughs). I think he started,
I want to say he started the process right before I graduated the year, right before I graduated in
the same year, that was in 2... in 1999. In 1999, and so it probably took about I'm gonna say
about maybe about a couple of months to a year. And so and so he invited me and then I, you
know, I came in, I came and joined him, you know, for the first few um... I want to say for the first
two years, clearly, I want to stay home, stay at home mom, I did not work. And, you know, in
those same years, you know, I had about three to four years, I had my two kids and so I stayed
home to raise them till they were a year and a half and just about a year. And after that is when I
actually we actually decided for me to walk outside of the house. And in then, you know, that's
how my career, you know, my working career started in us and I worked initially as a nursing
assistant that I was, you know, trying to get my degree converted here and that took some
classes, and then I was able to, to go for my life, hence the registered nurse here in US.
Barbara Sabino Pina 10:09
So where did you go and leave when you arrived, in the United States?
Nasmath Aldrin 10:14
I came straight to Minnesota. He was in Minnesota, yes, he was living in Minnesota at the time,
we lived in Roseville. And, you know, at the end of 2001, after our daughter was born, we
moved into a two-bedroom apartment in North temple. And, you know, about two years after
that, close to me having my second child is when we moved to a house that my husband
purchased at the time in White bear. And that's where, you know, both kids go went to
elementary school, middle school, and it's in their high school that we actually moved to Maple
Grove. And currently, we live in Brooklyn Park, and they are both in college.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:14
And that's awesome. That is really awesome to hear. Why Minnesota? Do you know why your
husband came specifically to Minnesota? And why you both stayed so long?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:26
(Laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:26
And not moving to any other state?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:29
That's a good question. He actually came, he came in stayed with a friend in Alexandria,
Virginia. And, you know, after he stayed there for a few months, he really wanted to be able to,
you know, to continue his education. And he also saw that the job, there was a big... the job
markets there. He was working in a in restaurants, you know, just the little job, you know, to, to
be able to survive. And he realized that it was kind of competitive, but not was not, you know,
was not, I will say what, was not really the job that he wanted to do, really, he really wanted to
pursue his education. And so and it was not paying that well, either. So at some point, he
decided he needed to separate and get his own place. And somebody actually, at the time, told
him that Minnesota was a good place to get a good job and to get a better paying job, and
where he could actually continue his education. And that's how he moved to Minnesota. So at
the time, when I came, he was already in Minnesota. And so I, you know, I just stayed there. Of
course, it was a big shock on the... I came in January, the weather was really cold, it was harsh.
So you know, I did not hesitate when he was like, "you want to just stay home for a few years?".
I'm was like, "absolutely!. I don't want to go out in this weather". That's for sure. And so, you
know, and so that's, that's how I that's how we stayed in Minnesota. And we kind of you know,
as every year, we will be like, you know, we need to move to a warmer state. But then we were
thinking about a good place for the kids education. And we realized Minnesota was one of the
states that offered a good education program for the kids. I think that was the main reason why
even though the weather was harsh, and we we felt like we should move each time we thought
about the kid and just stay back. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:55
So coming back a little bit a few minutes ago, when you mentioned about your career. You
mentioned that eventually, you started coming here to didn't work at the beginning. And then just
started to do like following certain steps in order to learn English and all these other things. And
eventually, you end up in the career that you are at the moment. Um, I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit about like, the first position that you got, or the first job that you got here in
the United States, and how that eventually got you to the place that you are at the moment.
Nasmath Aldrin 14:25
Okay, okay. Um, you know, actually, when I came in 2001, in September, and September 11
happened, right. And so, when I was going to start working, I was wondering, you know, which
fields will I go in that will not, you know, impact my, you know, where I will not be put down or
look down at all, you know, and because, you know, there was a lot of anxiety at the time, you
know, considering I was of Muslim faith. And so being that I studied nursing back home, we both
thought, you know, why don't you stay in healthcare. And, you know, in health care, you just go,
you will care for people, people will very quickly see to your heart and see that, you know, you
are just there to help them. And so I started here as a nursing assistant. And I worked, the first
place I worked, it's called "Volunteers of America". It's a nursing home, ah, in Maple, Maple
Woods. And so I started working there at the time as an nurse assistant, of course, and I worked
there for just a few months, at some point, I just did not like the culture. So I moved from that
company, and I went from there to another company called "Serenity". And that was in White
bear, and it was closer to our house actually. So that way, I stayed, you know, while I took some
classes at Kaplan for my nursing, and eventually, you know, got my license to work as a nurse.
And when I got my license to work as a nurse, actually, I was sponsored by another company, to
the Presbyterian homes, Presbyterian homes and services, and this is a company that sponsor
nurses actually from abroad. So my husband got the, you know, to know about them, and to one
of his colleagues at work. And so, through that company, you know, they really helped me to
even all the classes that I got the kind of guide me to, to get, you know, my nursing degree here,
and so, and, of course, I left serenity that that's what the last place I worked at an Nursing
assistance. And so, I went, I started my career as a nurse with Presbyterian homes. And one
day, for a few years, I, I went from there at some point, as you know, I went into management, I
went from being a floor nurse into, you know, clinical manager, and then just the stress of you
know, walk and managing my kids with you know, going up in all I decided, you know, I needed
to go back and work as the as a floor nurse. And so, you know, I went back you know, to this
simply serenity where I had previously worked as a nursing assistant because I like the culture
there. And so, I worked there as a nurse again as the flow nurse for a few years you know, just
managing with my kids age and different activities that they had. And of course, you know, after
a few years, I go into leadership there as well (laughs). And you know, started managing the
flow nurses then I went in managing for the bed Transitional Care Unit and in the year you know,
after a while, you know, I got tired again about management and I went into homecare. So in
homecare, I worked mainly with Fairview, Fairview services, and then you know, and my kids
now, back to college, I decided to tone it down. And I work currently as the, as an admission of...
director of admission at Presbyterian homes. It's only 10 minutes away from home for me, which
is really convenient. And the kids are not here anyway, they are all you know, in college and so
that's good one. I like my schedule of you know, Monday through Friday and having my
weekends that allow me to travel away and travel, you know, of course one being visited my
kids but also for business. Because you know, in between them my husband and I decided we
needed... we needed to supplement our income, we needed to diversify our assets. And so we
went into business, which has been, I will say, tremendous, you know, we have provided me the
tremendous growth, personal growth. And I believe, you know, that also contributed to the
growth in leadership that I experienced throughout my career. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:29
Wow, that sounds like a long journey that guided you to be more happy, like in a happier spot for
sure. Um, so you talked about, well we've been talking about many things. But I was, I'm
wondering, since you came to this country, I can hear that you were surrounded by many people
that helped you, in many support that you got it, but I'm pretty sure you also experienced many
challenges, and many obstacles, to also get to the place you are. So I would like to know, if you
could share a little bit about Who were those people that helped you? Like, uplift you to the
place that you are? Or what were those events that help you to where you are? And what were
those challenges that you had to face in order to get to the place that you are right now.
Nasmath Aldrin 21:26
Thank you, thank you. Actually, you know, I... This is how I came to see challenges, right?.
Challenges, I see them as an opportunity to grow. Okay, and I will say, my growth started from
being a floor nurse. One of the challenges I faced initially at work was the language. Not too
much the language but the accent, right, I knew I had an accent (laughs), there was no
discussing that, but a few of the challenges were, you know, where it was kind of thrown at my
face, you know, that... you know, either I mean, I can see where, you know, somebody may not
hear me, or may not understand me, right? by the way, but I was very, very aware of that. And I
actually, you know, will be the first to tell people I know, I have an accent. So and, you know,
being a nurse at many times, I have to educate my patients. So I will always take the time to be
slow. But also repeat myself, I will ask them, you know, to ask me because I will repeat myself,
as many times needed for them to understand me. Because that was very important for the
care, right? but that many occasions, you know, I really felt that, you know, either because of,
you know, their own issues that they had, you know, that's really how I take it because I came
across so many nice people, so many people who Oh, wow, "you speak so many languages" or
"you also speak...?" or "how many languages you speak? "and "you just come to US and you're
able to, you know, converse?", I'm like, Yeah, so I came across people like that, but I also came
across, you know, many people who, but only made me strive to get better at my you know, at
my communication, I will say, so, any challenge, that's why I only consider any challenge being
an opportunity to grow, okay?. Of course, you know, Presbyterian homes and services was you
know, as a company helped me initially to help me with you know, ESL helped me actually with
my class, my courses with Kaplan, Kaplan University and getting my nursing. So, um, so, there
were, you know, first was really tremendous in, in me, you know, going back to my nursing
career in this country. And the other day, I will say, I will attributes you know, a lot of my growth
also to the fact that I was not afraid to work hard. Not at all. And I was not afraid to, you know, to
really share with people my heart, part my heart in anything that I did. One thing that I learned
from my dad, you know, I learned from my dad and also one of my dear Professor at all nursing
school in Benin was anything that you decide to do, do it right! You do it once do it Right. Right?,
and, you know, don't give opportunity to be questioned. And so I value that a lot. And that was
one of the things that helped me. I, I, you know, I, I always give, I always put my best in anything
that I was doing. And I believe initially, that's what allowed me to go from a flow nurse quickly to
just grow in leadership. And the other thing that I will attribute my growth, my personal growt to
actually is the environment, you know, that I came at that I came through with the business
opportunity that my husband and I started, right and so, we... the business actually came as a
package along with a coaching mentorship program that, the name is BWW stands for bridge
worldwide. And so Britt worldwide was just a group of entrepreneurs, right who were committed
to helping people grow, personally. And the goal in our business is kind of related to the growth
in our personal growth. And so I fell in love with reading personal growth book, right? As I was
building my business, and, you know, in the opportunity, I had to associate with like-minded
people, you know, with people who are really upwardly mobile, and, you know, going after a
goal in life, and that, that was really unique, you know, that was unique, and I believe that
shaped, I believe that that shaped who I am today.
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:59
Yeah, that is really, really beautiful way to see challenges, I really like the way you explain them,
and how you were also to use them as a way to kind of grow and see them, as you said, an
opportunity. Um, I think all of these things are also kind of related to, you know, our beliefs, and
mindset, and all these systems. So I want to ask you, what do you think? Or what, what is your
definition for faith? Like, what does faith mean for you? And if it has changed over the years,
and if so, has it changed, because like, when you moved to United States?was your, were your
previous experiences, from your job?, in your marriage?, with your children? have they also
helped shape the way you see faith, and religion? Um, and yeah, just talk what it means for you.
Nasmath Aldrin 28:05
Thank you, thank you. Um, you know, of course, you know, I go, I grew up, knowing that there
was one God, that we were all, you know, that we were all, who created us all. And that is
anything that would be, right? believing in that God, even though he, we cannot see Him, we
cannot touch him. Okay, and so that, that, that really fit to me, is believing that in anything that
I'm doing, that there is a higher power, you know, that is actually guiding my step. And knowing
that, you know, I can go back, I can go back to him at any time, why that you will guide me, and
that any challenges that come also are could be a test of my faith, but or could be on, like I said,
an opportunity for me to grow even at the test for my faith, it is also an opportunity for me to
grow, but being able to see that, right? and then just, you know, take it that way and find you
know, find out from people who are aware, you know, I want to be, right? and taking guidance,
right from them and in reading a lot, reading a lot, you know, has helped me grow my faith as a
person. Yes, I had the faith but the challenges made me do that fit much stronger, right?, every
opportunity of anxiety of scarcity. You know, kind of reminded me Hey, you know what? in up
and low, right? there is no challenge tha\ he could put in front of me that he does not already
have the solution for. But that solution will only come in trusting him. Right that I was, I was, you
know, I was in good hands, and that the answer will come in in the right time. And just keep
moving forward and doing and choosing to do the right thing. Yeah. Really the belief in that one
thing? Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:22
absolutely. Yes. Kind of, continue talking about faith? And like, what do you believe? In all these
belief systems that you have? What do you think it means for you to be an immigrant? Who is
also African And who is also Muslim living in the United States? And how has your faith helped
you? Like, through... all this transitioning that you went from your native country, to a foreign
country that you have lived for multiple years? Now?
Nasmath Aldrin 31:17
I believe, of course, United States is the greatest states, I believe, right? In the world, I mean, in
the world, right. There is, you know, we can um, we can say all, you know, we can complain, we
can do, we can say so many things, right?. But it still remains that great country, it still remains
that country where that freedom of thinking, that freedom of enterprise, that free enterprise is,
and that's one thing that I appreciate a lot about United States. Now, of course, you know,
whether it's US or whether it's anywhere else, ignorance, I believe, is one of the main reasons
for, you know, for, you know, thinking Ill about one fit one region versus the other. I mean, God is
God, right, there is no other we call we call it Allah, right. And I believe we believe in, in God, we
believe in His messengers, while the prophet we believe in all of them. We believe in that one
day where we will all get called back to him, we believe in His angel, and then knowing all that,
you know, really strengthened my faith. It strengthened me, you know, knowing that, you know,
whatever somebody else may think, of me does not define me. Right? And knowing and you
know, trusting, in his hand of protection over me and my family, and trusting in his, you know, in
his guidance, and just moving forward, you know, and without too much baggage without too
much anxiety. Right. And so, that's really what I believe in, and my faith has helped me a lot to
stay grounded. You know, and, and, you know, it has helped me to raise my kids as well. And
helping them understand, you know, many things that, you know what?, usually, it's the
ignorance that acts, you know, ah, you know, the ignorance that acts selfishly, and then most of
the time, it's just because somebody has their own issues, you know, that can be transmitted
that can be portrayed in an ill way, right?,in a yes, in a hurtful way, or things like that. But no
human being a human being we all, we all will answer to him one day. And yeah, yeah, the US
has been a great country for us.
Barbara Sabino Pina
So good to hear. Um, so how does your identity this kind of has, you cannot cover a little bit
about this in the previous question, but I want to rephrase it a little differently. So how does your
identity as an immigrant African Muslim woman has shaped the way you see the world and the
way you behave and the basically who you are as a person?
Nasmath Aldrin
That's a That's a great question. I will say, you know, coming from a country where we really
believe in togetherness, right, we really believe so much in helping each other. I mean, even
though, you know, we don't have a lot, but we really believe in, you know, that togetherness,
that, you know, helping each other. And, you know, that just brings strength to all of us, right?.
And so that has helped me, of course, come in here and not having, you know, immediate
family, I didn't really have, I didn't really have much fun, right? There was that... there was, you
know, a little bit of preconceived ideas, you know, what is this person gonna think of me, and
what is that person, so I didn't really make a friend by the way, but, you know, after I started
walking, you know, and I will say, with the improvements in my English, it helped my self-image
as well, right?, and... of course, with the, the environments that I had a chance to be part of will
BWW, it helped me a lot to raise my self-image. And as my self-image raised, I realized that we
really are all just the same. We all just yearn for the same thing in life, we all want peace of
mind, right? We want great health, we want you know, they are just those basic things that we
all want. Right? And...but the environment, you know, that we grew up in, may make us have
some preconceived ideas about one person or the other, or one religion or the other and things
like that. But it's, I will say, you know, that togetherness helped me when I, when I came across
this business opportunity. And when I had the opportunity to meet on, you know, this team of
entrepreneurs in this environment, I just felt home, I really felt home. And I was like, you know, I
don't have to be afraid here. You know, nobody's judging me. You know, nobody's judging me
for who I am, you know, it's just me, and we are all here, together, learning from each other
growing together, you know, as a person, that's what I will say, that was huge... in umm huge
contributing in, you know, what shaped me and, and, of course, I found a game that I found
here, that family, family-like, atmosphere, even though we are all from different places of the
world, and, and things like that I found back here, you know, in this environment, and that
helped me a lot. And, you know, and then I also realized that there was really nothing to be
afraid of, you know, that, wherever I am, I could really be freely, you know, speak my mind. And,
of course, knowing that, you know, that freedom that we all have my freedom stop, when
I'm...where at that place, where I try to infringe on somebody else's freedom. Right, and so, but
it has helped, it has helped me that, you know, that togetherness, that spirit of, you know,
helping each other, you know, coming here, in the fit growing, you know, in an environment
where, you know, those values were, were very key, they kind of define this helped me a lot
here to just trust that in any way God brought me here for a reason. And so, you know, I will just
follow whatever path he has for me. And in the end, it will all be good. Yeah, I hope that
answered (laughs).
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, it did. Absolutely. It actually did touch a little bit about misconceptions. And you said a little
bit about how people can have ideas about certain people or certain religions. So I'm wondering
if you could elaborate a little bit more on like what are, a few misconceptions that people have,
or you believe people have about Muslims. And I'm like, what, if you would like to share a little
bit of how have you experienced those yourself? And how that has helped you to like, you
mentioned this a little bit about it, but like how this has helped you do see other religions and
yourself even more stronger or more open as well.
Nasmath Aldrin
Yeah, well, misconception I will say, you know, I'm I know that one of the big contributing factor
to this misconception also, I will say, when it comes to my religion, you know, being a Muslim
came from after that of September 11. Okay, I just came here to US, right?, I came in January,
and then September 11 happened. And then initially, you know, I could not, I mean, it's hard to
hide that you're Muslim (laughs). But, you know, it's like many people, I, you know, I saw that,
you know, they saw Muslim as, you know, terrorist, and, you know, things like that, of course,
initially, it was hard and actually raising my kids, you know, how do you sit them down and
explain to them, this is not what, this is not really, what...what being a Muslim is, right?. These
are people who choose, you know, who have their own agenda, really has nothing to do with the
religion. And these are just people who have their own agenda. And under the name of being
Muslim, you know, they fight to just, you know, do bad things, why they fight to just, but that has
nothing to do with religion, Islam is a unifying religion, you can see it even in how we stand in
the Muslim pray, right? There is no space between us. So, basically, you go in there, you may
be from Africa, you may be from India, you may be from any, any corner of the world. Right,
when you get on that road to pray, we all get so close to each other. Right? It's actually a
religion that bring us together. But at the same time, you know, when people decide under the
name of religion to, you know, to just kill and do things like that, right? it sounds, um, it's hard,
but I think that has that slowly, that event, slowly, I think... it increases the awareness of leaders
in the Muslim community, right?, where you know, where I pray, or the mosque, to just be an
opportunity for any of us to educate people. So initially, I was afraid, but then I just, you know, of
course, people saw my heart, right? in anything that I was doing. And I had the opportunity
many times at work, whether it be at work, you know, to just tell people that not who that's not
who we are. That's really not what we are about. You know, and, and, of course, you know, that I
believe that help that raised the awareness, or it raised the awareness and it's still going on, I
know the awareness of the religion itself. And I remember my kids studying Islam in school, and
it was a great opportunity, you know, to help them yes, you see this, you know what?, that this is
what this is, this is what our, our footage, and this is not what we about, you know, terrorism is
not what we are about. Right? And then understanding that Islam actually acknowledges every
of the other religions, right, in the, in the sixth pillar of faith. Right? Our faith is in Allah, God,
first, right? our faith in His messengers, right? Our faith in his books, right, our faith in the
messengers, which include Abraham, you know, Jesus, everybody, Joseph, all of them. When
Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam and our fifth in his book, The Torah, the angel, you know, the
Quran or every single one of them, right? This, God umm we believe God sent these books,
right to different communities. Why through evolution and at each time, target in the mindset at
the time of people and how they were living. Right? And so Jesus came, bringing and doing
many miracles. Right? So we believe he brought him and he gave him that power of doing
miracles to the ex... the expression of faith. Because at the time people needed to see that, to
believe that indeed, there is a God, right? And so through evolution, you know, of a human and
all, we believe all those books came. And Mohamed Salah Salem was the last to come with the
Quran, again, him in an area in an environment, right?, where the culture was, you know, killing
girls, baby girls, right? And, you know, in many, many, many, many violent things were there,
you know, initially in the culture, right? The worshipping objects and things like that were
predominant at his time. Right? And so in his, in him come in with the Quran to elevate people's
consciousness, right, and get them from that, you know, that's mindset and that culture and that
way of doing things. And he had to fight for people to actually get to the point where they could
believe why he had to clean up completely, right? the cava that place today that we all go and
worship as a Muslim that we all yearn to go right and worship, which is maca. Maca was taught
completely overtaken by idols, right? and for him to be able to bring Islam to people and to bring
the awareness of God to people, those things had to happen. And God needed, God needed for
those people, or those who will believe to believe. And yes, he had to fight. But that does not
mean that Islam is the religion of just fighting and killing, no, not at all. Right? And so for, you
know, for people and information is so readily available nowadays. Really, you know, for
anybody who really wants to understand Islam, they can pretty much get that information online,
you know, but, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what I can say. But, you know, just to say
that, not just like Christianity, and just like, you know, and Islam is just one way that God chose
to bring, you know, to raise people's consciousness and make them understand that there is a
God in that you do good, you will see good, and you do bad, you will find back as well.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, for those people that might know little to nothing about
Islam or Muslims, especially here in the United States. How would you describe what does
being a Muslim looks like to them?
Nasmath Aldrin
I would say being a Muslim. Ah, you know what, let me get your question, right. How will I
describe... how will I describe a Muslim to them?
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, to someone who doesn't, who knows little to nothing about Islam?
Nasmath Aldrin
Okay. So I will say it mostly it's just a human being, like anybody else, right? and we believe in
the uniqueness of Allah, right?. And, you know, we pray five times a day, you know, again, a
way for Allah to remind us, right? those, each time that you get on that road, remember I
created you, right? and so five times a day, we are required to go and do those prayers for that
reason. Because the more we are reminded of who's we are, right and where we come from. It
helped us not only stay grounded, right?, but it helped us just stay on the right path that he has,
you know, cleared us to be cleared all of us to come here for a reason, right? with a mission.
And these five prayers a day is a reminder for us each time of where we came from, who's we
are, who we are. Okay, and that's just, that just, those are just an expression. Of course, you
know, we are... he, what we like, those are killers of, you know, of our religion. But when you
think about it, it just a way for us to stay humble, to stay grounded, and know, where we came
from. And a reminder for us each of those five times a day, that, you know, we are God's all, all
God's kids. And we need to do the right thing, right. So it's just like, if you think about it, you
know, you take a shower five times a day, how much debt will you carry? Not much. Right? So,
yeah, oh, you wash your hand five times a day? How much? No. for the Deaf stain, you know,
within, you know, that purity of spirits. Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Awesome. Is there anything that we didn't get to talk about in this interview today, that you
would like to cover or to talk about? Maybe any comments or any additional thoughts about
anything that was said or maybe not said today?
Nasmath Aldrin
Um, you know, I will say, one thing I will say is encourage anybody, you know, like I said, earlier,
information is so readily available nowadays. You know, and in the Muslim community itself, you
know, we organize, so many opportunity for anybody to come in and learn, even as we are
currently fasting, right. And again, we fast and be nice, mainly, again, to worship God, by then to
keep that spirit period, which is actually good for our health itself. You know, this is, you know, a
period during the year where just those fasting actually are very good for your, of course, for
your spirit, for your spirit, but also for your body. So, we embrace that. And for anybody who is
not, you know, how, who really wants to learn about Islam, so many organizations, by the
Minnesoat, itself having a in an Islamic community, Minnesota, okay, let's CEAI. There are so
many so much information available, even online, Right? there there is translation of Hadith of
the Prophet of his way of living, they are translation of even the Quran, you know, the Quran,
you know that to just to help people be aware. So anybody who is looking for the information,
the information is available. It's just going and finding it. When, because anytime you actually go
and find information, it's just like, you are bringing light into darkness, right? And anytime you do
that, it helps increase your awareness. It helps raise your consciousness. It helps you in this
thing. It helps you see everybody as one as equal. No distinction. Doesn't matter. We don't I
don't see color. I don't, right? I don't see. Good. I don't see I noticed none of that. I just see
human beings, all of us. Just unique in our way, right? masterpiece, each of us a masterpiece.
Absolutely. And he is so much more than we think we are capable of. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Oh, so true. Well, thank you so much for your time today Nasmath I think I learned so much for
you and I hope everyone who listens to this conversation, this interview learns a lot for you as
well, thank you so much again.
Nasmath Aldrin
You're welcome my pleasure (laughs)
Show less
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um... Show more
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um, the first question I have for you is if you can just introduce
yourself and just say a little bit about your background and your
family.
Muna
Yeah, so I am a first generation students. I have parents that are
immigrants from Somalia. My parents came here more than 24 years ago
during Civil War and my family's a very traditional Somali Muslim.
Odalys Lozado
And then could you elaborate on why your parents came here and what
exactly it was like to come during the Civil War?
Muna
Yeah, so my parents basically came to Minnesota, they came to the
States, mainly out of obligation, because during the Civil War, it's
very dangerous time. A lot of people were losing their life. And it
was just a bad time to be in Somalia at the time. So a lot of people
were seeking refuge in Kenya, at a refugee camps where my parents were
for a portion of time with my older siblings. And they had to come to
the US for a better life and a more stable life where I would be born
and my other little brother and other siblings would be born.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say having immigrant parent kind of changed your
lifestyle or the way that you grew up, especially having them lived
through the war?
Muna
Yeah, so basically, my parents put a lot of importance on education,
so that I could get the best experience of American education and in
order to, you know, make something of myself here. I basically felt
kind of an obligation to do good so that my parents didn't just leave
Somalia for nothing, I want to have a better life for them and myself.
Odalys Lozado
Um, and besides incorporating those teachings into your life, were
there any other teaching such as, like, instilling their religion on
you that kind of differed because of having immigrant parents?
Muna
Um, yeah, my parents, I grew up in a Muslim family household. My
parents taught me about the religion, but they didn't really make it
so strict on me, so that like, I have the freedom to, you know,
practice as much as I need to, or you know what I mean, but it wasn't
a very strict household, but the Muslim morals and values were very
aligned in the household. So, yeah.
Odalys Lozado
And at what age were you introduced to these teachings, or when did
you become aware of them?
Muna
um, pretty much my whole life because I just knew growing up, my mom
was Muslim. A lot of my family members would go to Friday prayer and
celebrate Muslim holidays ever since I can remember so pretty much my
whole life.
Odalys Lozado
And now that you mentioned that, you know, you grew up with a lot of
family that wore hijabs at what age were you kind of drawn to it? Or
when did you decide that you wanted to wear it and what was the
reason?
Muna
I just wore in the third grade maybe as early as first or second
grade. And it was just something that I saw my mom do, and it was
something that I really wanted to do because I saw my mom wear it and
my older sisters. So it was just something that I just, was drawn to
and I thought was really beautiful. So I started wearing it at a young
age and I I started to love so much.
Odalys Lozado
you mention that wearing a hijab makes you feel very happy and that
you did it for your mom. However, are there any, like fears or other
emotions that came along with it too?
Muna
Um, you know what, when you grow up as a kid, and sometimes you see
other people not wearing it and like, especially in American country,
where it's not a majority Muslim country, so obviously, you're gonna
get stares, and people are gonna judge you based off your hijab, and
they can just tell that you're Muslim just from looking at you, it can
come with a lot of hard things to deal with. But living in Minnesota
makes it a little bit easier because we are one of the highest
populations of Somali people. So it's kind of like you have a
community. But still, it's still hard at the end of the day.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say things changes as you got older, and you went to
school? Were you still having the same emotions? how did you handle
having to, you know, bring these religious practice into school? Like,
did you feel anything about it? Or were there any problems or
conflicts with it?
Muna
Um, for me, the outside world wasn't much of a determination of me
wearing a hijab it was mostly more with myself. But I've had struggles
wearing it, like I've had times where I don't wear it. And that's just
something that I had to deal with within myself. it's more of a
personal things that I have to deal with. But in reality as I get
older, I haven't really had any negative experiences with people
directly judging me. Or not that I know of, but as I got older it
wasn't more so do with society, but it was more of an internal battle.
Odalys Lozado
And how are you like managing that as you get older? Or what are
things that you're trying to do to make it a little bit more easier?
Muna
Yes, so as I get older, I'm seeing more and more of the beauty of
modesty. So I'm trying to start with the way I speak and carry myself.
Even the way you dress is not just the hijab, it's your whole entire
clothing. So I'm trying to dress more modestly and behave more
modestly. And the way I speak to people and the language I use, so
that I can fully transitioned into wearing the hijab full time.
Because right now, I don't really wear it full time. And that's
something that I always wanted to do. That's one of my biggest goals
is to wear a hijab full time. And, you know, not take Instagram
pictures, without it or go in public without it because it's something
that is important to me to achieve in the future.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely.And talking about that hijab, I feel like there's a lot of
misconceptions behind it. But there's also a lot of misconceptions
behind the religion as a whole. So do you mind kind of addressing some
that you are very familiar with and kind of just deconstructed them
from your perspective. And just elaborating more on the actual
meanings?
Muna
Yeah, so a lot of people have the misconception that wearing the hijab
is oppression, which is completely wrong. Because, say, if a woman
wears a bikini or minimal clothing, they are praised and seen as
liberating themselves and, you know, wearing what they want. But if a
woman wants to wear a burqa or hijab, then they are being oppressed,
they're being forced, which it may be the case in some areas of the
world, but majority of Muslims in America and you know, other free
countries are choosing to wear the hijab, and that is, if you ask me,
that most liberating thing you can do in a world where people are
judging you and seeing you as oppressed or forced. And saying, no, I'm
gonna wear my hijab. So I think that's one of the biggest
misconceptions because most hijabis support the rights of women who
want to use more or less clothing or wear other types of clothing, you
know, so it's just kind of a double standard. And it's kind of sad
that people see it as oppression when it's very beautiful. And Islam
also teaches men to wear modest clothing, and to behave in a modest
way. But it's just not talked about. So that's just one of the biggest
misconceptions.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of elaborating, as you mentioned, you know, as your growing
up, you're trying to instill more practices more frequently and more
long term are there any other ones? You know, besides wearing a hijab
that you also want to incorporate? Or do more frequently? And what's
the reason behind it?
Muna
Um, yeah, so Islam is big on giving back to charity, and that is
something that I do regularly when I do have the means to, but in the
future, when I get more established with my career, I do want to find
bigger ways to make an impact in giving charity or make an
organization to help a community because giving charity and giving
back to the community is a big part of Islam.
Odalys Lozado
And currently are you practicing it? And if so, how? And how do you
plan on kind of expanding on it?
Muna
Yes, currently I am practicing. Right now we're in a month of Ramadan.
So I've been trying to strengthen my relationship with God. So I'm
getting in all my prayers and I'm trying to read the Quran and do
things that are productive, like helping around the house at my mom's
house or sending money back home to my mother's family just doing you
know as much as I can to benefit from the month of Ramadan
Odalys Lozado
and could you kind of expand just for people who aren't as acquainted
with Ramadan what it is?
Muna
So the month of Ramadan is when the Quran was first revealed to
Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and it's a month where
you you basically fast for 30 days from sun rises to sun set. And the
main goal of Ramadan is to get a closer relationship to God and clear
your mind of all the worldly desires that you have like people may
drink or smoke or you know, do things that are not typically our sins
and during this month, it gives everybody a clean slate to you know,
take a break from everything that's going on here and just connect
with God, pray and you know, give to charity and things like that.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned previously that you are students so are there any
difficulties with committing to these while you're a student or while
you have to like deal with you know, schoolwork and then also fast and
also do other things?
Muna
Um, sometimes it can be difficult Yeah, it definitely can be difficult
especially when you're working too I work part time. So some days I
have to break my fast at work. I have to prepare a meal while I'm at
home but I also have classes going on and homework and I have other
responsibilities so it can be a little bit hard but I can do it.
Odalys Lozado
and would you say that you know whether it was your high school or
your college now how are they on meeting the needs that you need
during the month of Ramadan? If they do at all?
Muna
Um, yeah. So I my high school there was a lot of Muslim students so
they did a good job of meeting our needs. They let us sit in the
library when it was Ramadan, so we didn't have to sit in the lunch
room because we weren't eating. They had a prayer room for us. And
even at the U there's multiple places to pray and yeah, I haven't had
any issues.
Odalys Lozado
Again, do you think living in Minnesota and having such a big Somali
Muslim community do you think that kind of helps with providing the
needs to support you? Or just like in school in general, having people
that are going through the same thing as you are, does that make it a
little bit easier?
Muna
Yeah, it definitely helps. I couldn't imagine going, living in a
different state where there's not a lot of Muslim people, because it's
really important to have support, because you do have your family, but
it's also nice to have friends and peers who are going through the
same thing as you and have a community so it's really nice.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think in your able to connect more with the students that
are going through similar situation or through a similar thing you are
going through?
Muna
Um, yeah, it's definitely easier to connect with people who are going
through similar situations as you because I feel like, that's with
anything, it just easier to have someone by your side so whatever task
you have, that may be difficult, it can be easier.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. Overall, just kind of reflecting on your life up until
this point, how would you say that your upbringings and your faith or
being Muslim have played a part in your life?
Muna
Um, yeah, I think Islam has made me a more empathetic person, and a
more cautious person, because when I go outside wearing the hijab, I
just got to know that I'm representing it, I may not represent all of
Islam, but when people look at me, that's what they think of. So I
have to carry myself in a good manner, and respectful way. And also
the teachings and morals of Islam have stopped me from making bad
decisions in my life so many times. And whenever I feel kind of, you
know, when people have times they feel down, or they're going through
stuff, but my religion has been there for me to lean back on so that I
never get to a really dark place. Because in Islam, we believe
everything happens for a reason, and God has written everything for
you. So God's will is very important to me.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned that you feel like you many not represent Muslims as
a whole, but in way represent what being a Muslim is, do you feel any
need to fight back or break down stereotypes? or discrimination? And
if so, what are you trying to do? Or how do you deal with that?
Muna
Um, in the past, I've felt a lot of burden to break down stereotypes
and prove to people that Muslims aren't bad, or, you know, whatever
misconceptions they have. But the older I get, the more I realized
that if people in the year 2021 want to be ignorant, it's their
choice. So it's not really my responsibility to inform people about
what Islam is in the way that like if they're ignorant about it, but
if someone who was genuinely willing to learn about Islam and wants to
know its teachings and stuff like that, I'm definitely open to sharing
what I know. But in terms of ignorant people, I'm not really open to
that anymore, because it's very draining as somebody who is Muslim and
black, you have to constantly explain yourself. So it can be very
draining to your mental health.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely, overall, as a whole based on your experience, how would
you in a few words, describe your experience, if you've had any,
about negative experience from other people because you're Muslim? and
explain how you've dealt with it.
Muna
Um, yeah. looking back, I can't really think of significant times
where I was openly treated badly based on my religion. But at the same
time I've had a lot of nonchalant or kind of stares or remark made to
me because of my religion, you know, so those micro aggressions kind
of made me aware of things at all times. And I got to stay alert to
overthinking things sometimes to see if people are giving me a
microaggression or, you know, so it's very tiring to always have to be
on guard to see if people are looking at you differently or treating
you differently based on your religion. But that's just something that
I have to do.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of following up on that where do you think like these
comments or ignorance stems from?
Muna
Obviously, we had our President Donald Trump who was out there spewing
a lot of different racist and Islamophobic and xenophobic things
towards Muslims, even callings out Somalia and a bunch of other Muslim
countries. So people think it's more acceptable, because somebody like
the president, or even the media, news outlets, normalized it. People
think it's okay to say stuff like that now, like, racially, or
Islamophobic stuff. So I think it stems from, like, the leaders of the
country, and the media, which affects people a lot.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think having Donald Trump as a president, cause there to be
more racism and discrimination? Or did it bring into light the racism
and discrimination that was already there.
Muna
Yeah, no, it definitely did not cause any of the racism, because it
has been going on since this country was built, racism has been a
terrible issue. Also, the xenophobia has been around for decades, but
it's just been made more acceptable. Because if the President would
say something like that, then it kind of gives agency to people who
already think things like that, to go ahead and speak their mind and,
do crazy things.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, definitely. And you also said and mentioned how media plays a
part in this what part would you say it plays?
Muna
Well, media is consumed so much in today's society, where even if
you're not actively looking for information, you can find it casually,
and you might have subconscious thoughts that in the back of your mind
due to the media you consume. So media is just everywhere, and it can
affect your consciously or subconsciously. So that's mainly where we
get our information from. So if somebody actively looks for a certain
type of media, that's what they're going to find. which can affect
their biases and their opinions.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, and, you know, besides the negatives that media brings out,
would you say there's any positive aspects to having media being very
accessible to everyone?
Muna
Yeah, there's definitely positives, people can look for information on
different things that they are curious about. Yeah, there's definitely
a positive to media but there could be miseducation as well.
Odalys Lozado
And how have you found a balance between it?
Muna
Um, I try to get my information from different sources. And before I
speak on certain topics or issues that's going on, I like to do my own
research. Because there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. So,
I like to get my information from different places.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, and then just kind of going back to the beginning of the
interview where you mentioned that your parents very loosely kind of
according to your will instilled their religion onto you, thinking
into the future how would you, give in if you had kids, instill your
religion onto them?
Muna
Note I choose how much I want to practice and in the future, I would
probably do the same for my kids so that they can have their own
relationship with God and Islam and so that they can have it. I think
it causes you to have a stronger relationship with God so, because you
get to experience it for yourself.
Odalys Lozado
looking into the future what are things we can do to break down racism
and Islamophobia that's present, or even the ignorance towards what
being Muslim means?
Muna
um, I think there needs to be more accurate presentation in the media
of Muslims, like if you watch a TV show and there's a Muslim
character, they're often like oppressed or they don't want to be
Muslim or in their religion or it's just a really negative character.
So if there was more positive Muslim characters and TV shows or
Muslims, leaving cities for example has more Muslim representation. In
the government for example, Ilhan Omar, she's breaking barriers for
Somali Muslims, and, yeah, there just needs to be more open dialogue
and more examples of Muslims in America.
Odalys Lozado
You mentioned, Ilhan Omar, being one of the few people to represent
the Muslim community, how does having someone that looks like you
affect or influenced you? Why does representation matter to you?
Muna
I think it's very important, because when you grow up without any
representation of people that are similar to you and culture or
experience or race or religion, seeing them do things that you aspire
to do or, you know what I mean it can be damaging, especially to a
child. Because you don't think that you could see yourself doing stuff
like that but if you see somebody doing it you feel more like you can
do it. Yeah, it's very important. It's very important. And,
especially, Ilhan Omar who wears the hijab. And a lot of times, people
might see the hijab as unprofessional, or, you know, not something
that you can wear in professional settings, or things of that nature,
but she's a leading woman in the government, and she's wearing her
hijab proudly and that's something that's can be admired by young
Muslim girls.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely I agree. And where do you think these like expectations of
what being professional looks like or is versus what being non
professional looks like, where do you think they stem from or where do
they come from?
Muna
I honestly think that it's rooted in racism and yeah
institutionalized racism and the standard of professionalism is based
on white America, even a black woman wearing her natural hair can be
seen as unprofessional. There's many circumstances where black women
in professional settings were told that they can't wear their
dreadlocks or curly hair, you know in professional settings or even in
school settings. So it's definitely rooted in institutionalized
racism. And it was set basically by white America. The standard is
white Americans.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. And as a college student, you're kind of in progress of
changing the course as a first generation student so are there any
struggles that you're faced with in college or just, you know, as a
first generation student in general?
Muna
As a first generation student. You have a lot of internal battles with
yourself because you're doing a lot of things that are considered
uncharted territory because from the beginning with FAFSA, I've had to
do it all alone because my parents did not have the chance to go to
college, or did not speak English that well so it was something that I
had to do alone. And not only that but your college experience is also
a time where you are becoming more of yourself and leaning more and
turning into your adult self. So you have to make decisions for
yourself and it can be very difficult because, especially as someone
who has intersectional personality, I mean, sorry, intersectional
identities. Being Muslim first generation, female, black, you know it
can be very challenging. You just have to deal with a bunch of
different things that the typical college students probably would not
have to definitely
Odalys Lozado
I can agree, and being a first generation student and coming from
immigrant parents do you ever have problems with your racial identity,
like, you know, your parents, obviously, are from Somalia, but grew up
in America. Do you view yourself as like the standard definition of
what American is, or what do you view yourself as or identify yourself
as?
Muna
Um, I definitely have strong cultural roots. I speak Somali with my
parents and family and it's my food and I honestly don't ever feel
like I would feel fully American, by the definition. I was born in
America. And I am American citizen. But my home, always, even though
I've never been to Somalia feels more of home. It's somewhere that I
felt welcomed in feels like more of a home for me. But, um, yeah,
that's what I would say.
Odalys Lozado
And thinking back reflecting on your life as your whole like your
parents teaching, your experience in school and everything you
learned, looking forward, what are your future plans, both in your
career and personal life?
Muna
So I just plan on incorporating all the things that my parents
instilled in me. And I just hope to graduate within the next two years
for my end goal for my health service management degree, and hopefully
one day I do want to open some type of health care facility for
vulnerable adults, specifically in areas where it's low income in
Minneapolis mainly targeting immigrants because that's something that
I'm passionate about.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think your life experience up until now has been a very
influential or is a deciding factor?
Muna
All of my experiences as a first generation Muslim woman, black
they've all shaped my experience, so they will shape my goals in the
future.
Odalys Lozado
Do you have any closing remarks or final thoughts that you would like
to share.
Muna
No, not really.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, well thank you for taking the time to be interviewed, It's very
appreciated.
Muna
Thank you for interviewing me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Amina Pezerovic 0:00
Today is Sunday, April 17 2022. I'm Amina Pezerovic, from Augsburg
University in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'm here doing an oral history
interview with Muamer Pezerovic in Maple Grove Minnesota. This interview
is for the Muslims in Minnesota project. When were you born a... Show more
Amina Pezerovic 0:00
Today is Sunday, April 17 2022. I'm Amina Pezerovic, from Augsburg
University in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I'm here doing an oral history
interview with Muamer Pezerovic in Maple Grove Minnesota. This interview
is for the Muslims in Minnesota project. When were you born and what do
you remember from your childhood?
Muamer Pezerovic 0:24
I was born on May 17 1973. And from my childhood I have only the best
memories that I can have and wish anybody to have a childhood like I did
what can I say you know the growing up you know it was just without
worries everything was provided by my family you know they had lots of
friends and like I said I didn't we didn't have any worries growing up
you know we were just enjoying it like supposed to be for every kid in
the world.
Amina Pezerovic 1:08
what was it like growing up in Bosnia
Muamer Pezerovic 1:11
growing up in Bosnia well it was like I said my childhood was really nice
you know and growing up as a teenager I had lots of friends lots of
cousins you know people on a usual basis you know that we besides the
school and everything you know, we grow up close to the lake and we enjoy
the summers doing so many things you know because that that age you know,
he was main thing to find something you know to practice as a football,
basketball sports sailing sports you know, the we had so many
opportunities to do over there and that's what we spend our time you know
growing up with a friends and like I said going through cafes restaurants
you know, the Bosnia that time was Pro- Western country you know that
everything that you could listen any kind of music in United States you
could listen automatically in Bosnia at that time and there was no
prohibition or whatever you know, it was one wonderful life you know that
you can imagine you know, I didn't I didn't remember anything anything
wrong at that time you know, that's what was going on you know? What
should I say everything lasted you know, till the war started in Bosnia
but like that you know, that was my memories that everybody enjoyed it
Amina Pezerovic 3:05
was your family very religious what religious experiences do you remember
having when you were young
Muamer Pezerovic 3:12
Yes, my family especially my mom she was very religious and even today
you know growing up you know, everybody from our part of the town you
know, that where we used to live was going to beside the regular school,
we were going to school next to the mosque, you know, that we could have
some basic education and wacky we can pray and whatever whatever comes
with that, you know, but yeah, the religious experiences that I remember
you know, it was growing up are beautiful experiences, you know, that the
people you know, that especially, when the Ramadan is there and the
people are fasting and you can feel human today people are preparing in
in a bakeries, you know, special bread, you know, that we call Lepine,
you know, that they're preparing you know, when they want to break the
fast people were waiting in lines, you know, just for a half an hour just
to get that bread, you know, fresh and, and hot, you know, and then when
you get it, you know, you run home and trying to break the fast you know,
and yeah, those those things are staying over there. You know, the people
were very respectful, especially the Ramadan, you know, when when to each
other, you know, in Ramadan, it's there, you know, data That's seriously.
And yeah, then we had other people coming sapphires, we call them those
are visitors people that they were coming from other cities, you know, to
our hometown, you know, and we try to provide for them the best
experience they needed. And yeah, all that stuff, you know, the bring the
people together. And people were happy at that time and I know I was
happy
Amina Pezerovic 5:38
What was your experience coming to and living in Minnesota as a Muslim
Muamer Pezerovic 5:44
experience coming to Minnesota, you know, first time when I came here I
came thanks to my friends today used to live here in the land. The
promise promised me you know, that it's going to be much easier to find a
job here and no, I didn't have any other family, you know, some friends,
you know, and the first thing the first time I came here was not that
much. Thinking where and what do you know? Because as a Muslim, you can
pray in your own apartment you can be pray, you don't need to be in a
mosque or something No. to be. But yeah, it's a kind of later on, you
know, after some while, you know, then when I see we had a something new,
like a Muslim community from Bosnia that time was not that big. And
people were kinda for meeting each other, you know, just when it's a
bigger Eid Mubarak or for Ramadan, or even for Eid Adha and other
holidays. So let's see it, you know, but yeah, that we were renting
space, you know, just to pray at that time, because we didn't have that
big organization, you know, like some other countries for me, he's you
know, but step by step, you know, people start organizing and we could we
were able to thanks to the generous donations from other people to buy
the building and open the open the Islamic center and over Bosnian people
here in Minnesota. And yeah, it's it's kind of that was a kind of feeling
it's not, you know, you left everything behind, it was just five minutes
walk, you know, to every mosque in Bosnia, you know, where you live in
Orange here, calm, you don't see that it was a little bit confusing, but
you're worried, you know, how to survive here first, you know, that was a
thing that you concentrate, you know, to provide for a family on the
first place and everything for yourself. And thanks to Allah, you know,
we kinda, we kinda did that other thing, too, you know, we open up the
mosque, you know, and now people have a place to go to pray, you know, in
our own language, you know?
Amina Pezerovic 8:25
And did you ever feel disconnected from Assam while living in Minnesota?
No, never.
Muamer Pezerovic 8:30
You can never be if your true believer you cannot be disconnected. No
matter where you come, you know, where you go. If you carry that in your
heart. If you carry shahada, it's in your heart.
Amina Pezerovic 8:45
What did your community look like in Minnesota and where they muscling?
Muamer Pezerovic 8:51
Well, hold my friends, you know, on the beginning, you know, when I came
here, normally, there were Muslims, you know, and some people from ex
Yugoslavia, you know, that I met, you know, some Christ's Serbs, you
know, you met them, you know, but most of them, they were Muslims, you
know, and they hang out, you know, but at work, you know, I work with all
kinds of people, you know, the people, Latinos, you know, Americans,
everybody, you know, and normally cooking in front of them, you know, for
so many years. You have friendships through it, you know, all kinds of
people. Sometimes we talk about religion, even if it's a different,
different view or something, we just talked about it and that was the
main main part of it, you know, that they were people, freedom of speech
that you can say, What do you think and what do you what do you carry in
the other person also, you understand our main main thing is, there was
there was a kind of thing that carry on, you know, every day, I met so
many people that they impressed me and that they're going to stay with me
all my life, you know, how generous and how, how honest and nice people,
you know, sometimes you lose that feeling that those people don't exist,
and all of a sudden they show up, they just Yeah, but like I said, you
know, most of the people that I had for friends, we were visiting as a
family and I recall, you know, the Bosnia, Bosnian family, they come back
to us, and that was the kind of thing that, and beside the work, you
know, you couldn't, you couldn't do that much, you know, as we used to
do, like in Bosnia, or something, you know, here was a priority thing was
just to support your family, that was the number one rule in order to
provide that they have a place to stay sleep, they eat, they have
everything to eat, and, and normally, you know, if you have a time for
fun, and you go out with your friends, and you have fun, you know, but
yeah, that's the that's the kind of thing that like I said, that
community, you know, but it grows, it grows, you never know who you're
going to meet every day. And I hope it's just the honest and nice person.
Amina Pezerovic 11:29
Yeah. How did you practice your faith in a new country in a state that
didn't have a huge Bosnian Muslim community?
Muamer Pezerovic 11:39
Well, you know, as a, as a Muslim, you know, when you come in, if you
don't have a place to go a mosque, or masjid or, you know, you always
have your home, you just need to know, which side to turn, you know,
where is the mecca, you know, and that's where return and just pray at
home, you know, pray, or it was that time, you know, I remember when I
first time came here to United States, you when I came to Minnesota, we
had a mosques, you know, that they were built by the people that they
came from Saudi Arabia, or, or Lebanon or, you know, and that's what we
did on the beginning, you know, if we're going there and trying to, you
know, you go over there you pray, because every mosques you know, mosque,
it's a, it's a house of the guard, you know, and especially for, for
holidays, you know, for a middle fifth remedial at her aid, you know, we
were going you know, definitely, by that time, but otherwise, you know,
we stay at home, pray as much as you can, you know, as much times allows
you and, yeah, that will be
Amina Pezerovic 13:11
what were turning points in your religious life. Were they early in life
or more recently?
Muamer Pezerovic 13:17
Well, turning points, you know, like I said, before, you know, growing
up, you know, first of all, first thing that I remember, you know, like a
little kid and I was going to my grandpa, and we were kind of all the
family members, you know, like he was like five, six, maybe even 10 kids
you know, we were going there and then we were practicing in front of
him. Surrahs , you know, that's you have to learn and you have to learn
how to do the solid you know, and and basic things you know, that
religion gives you an all and besides that we were going to mosque you
know, that we had to finish the school, you know, in front of the Imam
you know, which I did, you know, I was maybe I finished hotma we call it
you know, when you read the whole Quran when I was about 14 years old,
and you have to do that in front of everybody in a mosque, you know, that
was a graduation for us. Yeah, but the thing is, you know, the religion
you know, growing up like that you don't think seriously about it, you
know, you just do something because your parents asked you to do and but
the main point, you know, in a religion that that was, I was affected,
you know, I was when I was in a camp during the war in Bosnia, you know,
when I was faced with faced with the deaths, you know, that It's that the
only thing that I remember that I said the academy shahada because I was
ready. I was ready to leave this world and everything you know and I said
Ashburn La Ilaha illa Allah wa Ashkelon the Muhammad Rasul Allah, like,
as every, every Muslim should say, before he leaves this world. And that
was it something you know, that you carry. And I was always fascinated,
you know, that, how in that situation person can stay so calm and so so
brave, you know, that you just don't even move you say, This is it, this
is well of God, you know, and this is, and but thanks to the gods, we
stay, here we are 30 years after he, you know, with a beautiful family
and, you know, and we just, we have to be in life, we have to be
grateful, you know, and just pray, pray for other people, that they stay
alive and healthy. And, you know, that's that will be Yeah.
Amina Pezerovic 16:17
What do you think is often misunderstood about Muslims in Minnesota,
Bosnian Muslims?
Muamer Pezerovic 16:25
Won't even generally, you know, the people don't understand, don't
understand some things, you know, they talk about something, but they
didn't even educate themselves, you know, to talk about people and what's
happening in the east over there, what's happening here, generally, you
know, the, putting all people in one, one pot, that's, that's, that's not
correct, you know, and everything what happens over there, you, you bring
the Muslims in 9111, like I said, the place everybody, you know, and
people should be more educated, you know, the latter people here in other
states, they don't even know about Islam, you know, they should, my view
is, you know, just they should study more and see what's all about, you
know, and when you do that, then it will be much better understanding
that Islam is the religion of peace, you know, and people are, people are
so nice and kind to each other, and you cannot put, like I said, if
somebody does something, some want to say, yes, it's like a terrorist or
somebody does something, you know, that, you know, you cannot put hold
people together in that, you know, it happens from every side, you know,
it's not only for Muslims, even Catholics or Jewish or everybody has a
some kind of people that are extreme, that it can commit something, you
know, that you cannot generalize, you know, everybody with that, and
that's the only thing you know, I think that people have a lack of
education about Islam, you know, and once they do that, they then they
understand better you know, what's going on? And I think they have more
respect for Muslims.
Amina Pezerovic 18:27
What are your experiences with Muslims of other ethnicities and races?
Muamer Pezerovic 18:33
Well, I met so many people here in Minnesota, you know, especially, you
know, working at the restaurant, you know, I could that was able to meet
some people you know, from Somalia from 83. from Lebanon, Palestine,
which country in the world you know, Turkey normally, you know, when the
Yeah, it's all one thing, it's in common, you know, those people are nice
smiling as salaam alaikum, my brother or you know, it's a kinda you know,
you can see that it's happiness and on their faces, you know, that they
don't mean anything bad to other person. You know, but like I said,
people just want a good life, you know, for for their families and for
themselves and normally for others, you know, and help your neighbor
like, like you said, Help, and it's gonna Good thing it's gonna return to
you, you know, and that's the that's the main thing I think in life, you
know, just try to help try to help everybody around you and all those
people, you know, that I met there was so nice You know, we could find,
we could find together, you know, we could talk about the religion, we
could talk about other stuff in life, you know, and all the time if they
were leaving and say, Oh, inshallah brother You know, it's gonna be you
know how the Allah tell it's gonna be for us you know and yeah but when
nothing then just the good experiences you know
Amina Pezerovic 20:30
what role does Islam play in your life and now?
Muamer Pezerovic 20:35
Well, Islam hates the way, way of life, you know, just it's a big roll,
big rolling, especially people when they get older, you know, they're
gonna turn more to word religion in everything you know, and besides the
work that we do here and everything, you know, it's not an excuse, you
know, but now it's getting better, you know, hopefully, you know, we try
even with the kids, you know, to teach him to keep it and later on, you
know, to carry on, you know, that big thing, big thing and nine in a life
that can lead you if you if you follow the rules of Islam, you know,
you're going to be on the right path. You know, and you're going to be
nice person, first of all, you know, after that, you know, it's
everything else. But hopefully, hopefully, in the future, you know, we
just, we're gonna try, we're gonna try even more doing that we do now,
you know, and Islam, it's the best cure for everybody and all especially
psychologically, you know, if you do that, you know, and you pray every
day, then it's gonna bring you down in this difficult times in audits
that everybody is experiencing in order. Everything around us, you know,
the wars going on, and people are so worried about stuff, you know, but
you need to have a something you have to need. You have to keep the faith
and don't lose hope. And the hope is everything. If you lose hope, and
you lose everything. That's what I learned from my experience. But like I
said, Yeah, it's Islam plays plays a big role. You know, we try to keep
it as much as much as we can, you know, we can always do much more and
better. But that's, that's the, that's the thing. You know, when it
clicks, it clicks, you know, sometimes you cannot push it. If you push it
too much, sometimes people burn. You cannot overdo it, you know, and
hopefully, everything is gonna be okay. And hopefully my family you know,
and the kids you know, they're gonna carry on, carry on, you know,
whatever we left, you know, to them and that will be the main idea that
they find the truth. And and, what else could be said?
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
Hi, I'm Chyanne Phravoraxay. I'm the oral historian for this oral history project.
I'm here with Fatha Ahmed, can you state your full name and your age?
Fatha Ahmed 0:12
Well, hello, my name is Fatha Ahmed and I'm nineteen years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:16
So, um,... Show more
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
Hi, I'm Chyanne Phravoraxay. I'm the oral historian for this oral history project.
I'm here with Fatha Ahmed, can you state your full name and your age?
Fatha Ahmed 0:12
Well, hello, my name is Fatha Ahmed and I'm nineteen years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:16
So, um, where were you born and raised?
Fatha Ahmed 0:20
So I was born here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was raised in St. Paul and mixture with
Roseville and Falcon Heights.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:28
Okay. And was that the same with your family like your parents and siblings or?
Fatha Ahmed 0:33
All my siblings were born here, I'm the oldest out of nine. So and my parents were born in
Somalia. So my dad was born in a city called us Lascaanod. And my mom was born in a city
called Jowher.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:47
Okay. And have they told you their story of immigrating here?
Fatha Ahmed 0:55
They briefly told me when I was, a couple years ago, actually, they both fled the civil war back in
1996 or 97. So my mom came 1998 and my dad came- no my mom came in 1999 and my dad
came a year before that. So 1988. And I was born 2000
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:16
And did they meet here?
Fatha Ahmed 1:18
They met here, yes. They met through mutual friends.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:22
And have you ever gone to Somalia?
Fatha Ahmed 1:25
No, I was going to go last summer, but instead I went to Kenya.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:29
Okay, so what brought you to Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 1:31
My mom wanted to move there with my 5 younger siblings. So she wanted to like, have a better
life over there like she did with my younger siblings.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:42
So then do they live there now?
Fatha Ahmed 1:43
They do. Yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:45
How long have they lived there?
Fatha Ahmed 1:47
It's been like six months now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:50
So how was your experience there?
Fatha Ahmed 1:52
It was different. The culture there is pretty different. But overall it was like a nice experience to
see a whole different side of the world.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:04
So how was it different?
Fatha Ahmed 2:07
I'll just say like, culturally, they were- I mean, there was different like things like, what was it?
How they like view things differently. Like the president and like how like the laws over there,
just different than here.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:26
Can you give more details?
Fatha Ahmed 2:29
I mean, the laws over there really- like when I went there, like, you don't have to drive with the
license, which was interesting. Actually. You don't- there's no drinking age. There's no, like, stuff
like that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:45
Wow. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 2:46
I know. Yeah. It was really, I mean, it was interesting, but wow.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:50
So do a lot of Somalis live in Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 2:53
There was only- Well, it's mostly Christians. Not Somalis, but there's like fairly good amount
because Kenya is a Christian country.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:03
Oh, yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 3:04
But there's mostly Yeah, there's mostly Christians are like, not that much Somalis from what I
see.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:10
Okay. Are you fluent in Swahili?
Fatha Ahmed 3:15
No. I literally know, like a couple words and that's it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:18
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 3:19
I know Somali fluently but not Swahili.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:22
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 3:23
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23
So then did you speak Somali there then? Everyone knew Somali or?
Fatha Ahmed 3:28
Um, they knew English
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:30
Oh, okay. So you just spoke English?
Fatha Ahmed 3:31
Yeah, because if it was just Swahili then it would be complicated. But yeah, they mostly speak
English and Swahili over there.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:39
Okay. And then how did you learn a little bit of Swahili then?
Fatha Ahmed 3:43
From like meeting different people. Like I know like words. I understand it a little bit. But like
speaking it is just hard.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:52
So do you think there's like a drastic change or like difference between Swahili and Somali?
Fatha Ahmed 3:57
I mean there's- Well yeah, actually. Yeah, there is a lot different, because there's like different
meanings to like different stuff and they have different like words that mean the same thing as
Somali, but it doesn't totally mean it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:10
Okay. And um, so you were in Kenya during Eid right?
Fatha Ahmed 4:16
I was. Eid was in the summer so to like after Ramadan, there's an eid and then a month and a
half later there's an Eid so yeah. I celebrated to Eids in Kenya which was, I would say, like that
was like the most fun I like experienced, because they do more cultural stuff in Kenya than in
America, because in America you just go pray and like just go to like, fun stuff. But there like
you like, there's like food, there's dances, there's more like more stuff.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:48
Okay, so going back to what you said about your family. Do you think, do you see you and your
dad and the rest of your siblings possibly moving to Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 4:57
My dad wants to move back home, but for me like it wasn't for me, but I would totally love to
visit. I don't know if it's just because I was born here, that's why it's different? But I don't want to
go over there. Just a vacation.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:13
Yeah? Moving on to your early education, so growing up in Minneapolis and like St. Paul area,
Twin Cities, do you feel like you were surrounded by Somali Muslims? Like did you always feel
comfortable?
Fatha Ahmed 5:29
So I went to a public school, kindergarten through senior year of high school. From when I
started kindergarten, there was literally no, like, people that looked like me. It was all like, white,
which was- it wasn't that bad at first, but when I got to like first second grade, like I started
getting questions about the hijab then, it's like it's been like, an ongoing thing like every year.
Like "why do I wear it?"
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:56
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 5:56
Yeah, I mean, at first they didn't know. They're like- we were all young so they didn't have any
knowledge of like, what the hijab is and why i wear it. But after the years, like starting middle
school, high school, there was more people that like knew why I wore it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:15
Interesting. Okay, so then, um so you said that you were probably the only like, Somali there?
Fatha Ahmed 6:23
Yeah, just me and my one friend. That's it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:25
Oh, okay. So then were there any like Muslims then? At your school either?
Fatha Ahmed 6:28
No, there wasn't. No, I mean there was black African Americans, but not like Somali Americans
or Muslim Americans.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:37
So do you remember when you first started wearing your hijab?
Fatha Ahmed 6:40
From the moment I started? Well, it was when I was five or six. Like when I started school.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:47
Oh, okay. Is that like, do you have sisters?
Fatha Ahmed 6:51
I have, yeah, three other sisters.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:52
Okay, so was that the case for them too? Like that age?
Fatha Ahmed 6:55
Yep. When we started school. Every time we go out, we would just wear the hijab. Like from
what I remember like when I started kindergarten, that's when I started wearing a hijab.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:02
Okay, so during like holidays, would you- How would that work? Did your school like
accommodate to that or it didn't follow it?
Fatha Ahmed 7:13
No, they wouldn't allow us to. At first when I was in elementary school they didn't allow us to get
days off, because it wasn't technically a holiday in like the calendar. So we just- I mean my dad
would like talk to the principal every year to like let them know like these specific like kids are
not gonna be able to come on this day, because they'll be celebrating like their holiday. Just like
how the others celebrate Christmas so there's days off, but for when it's Eid like we didn't have
any days off and like we had to like miss class, miss like assignments and everything. We were
behind. So that was pretty difficult for my parents too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:57
So then was that like throughout all your education?
Fatha Ahmed 8:01
Yes. Kindergarten through senior year.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:05
When did you feel like there were more Somalis or people of color?
Fatha Ahmed 8:10
Probably middle school. Because I don't know like there was- I started seeing more and more
Somalis in middle school. I thought I wouldn't, because it's still a public school but I did and
senior year was just still a lot of Somalis too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:28
Did you like befriend the Somalis or what was your friend dynamic like?
Fatha Ahmed 8:34
It was like a mixture. Like at first I was friends with mostly whites. And I started going off to like,
Mexican and then Somalis. Yeah, that's like, the culture that I would like to associate with.
Because there was no one else to actually talk to. When I got to like senior in middle school
year, that's when I started talking to more Somalis like people look like me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:58
Okay. And you did mention that, like, people would ask you a bunch of questions just because
they didn't know but have you ever experienced any like, intentionally negative interactions?
Like people saying rude things or?
Fatha Ahmed 9:14
So when I was in fifth grade this one boy asked, he asked what I had in my head. And I told him
like the Hijab like he asked why I wore it. I explained it to him and then he told me, I don't know
why he's like, he told me to like take my towel off
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:30
Really?
Fatha Ahmed 9:30
Yeah. He said, yeah he said a towel. Or like a tablecloth? I don't know. But it was, yeah. So he
told me take that off and then at first I thought it was just funny. But I started to realize like that
like hurt, so I didn't say anything. But I told my mom and she said, like, like "going to school, it's
going to be like different, difficult for you to like, adjust to wearing the hijab".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:54
And what does the hijab mean to you?
Fatha Ahmed 9:57
It means- to me it means to be modest and like, caring about like my religion and like, why I'm
here.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:04
So you think that you would wear it for probably the rest of your life then?
Fatha Ahmed 10:08
Yes, for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:09
Okay, interesting. And so moving into religious upbringing. Do you think, in your opinion, do you
think your family's more traditional or loose with Islam? Or, like compared toFatha Ahmed 10:22
What do you mean "loose with"?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:23
Loose as in, they're not as traditional or they don't follow as much.
Fatha Ahmed 10:28
Oh, yea. I would say my parents are traditional, they're really religious.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 10:32
I would say they're traditional
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:34
So in what way, like compared to other people that you've seen?
Fatha Ahmed 10:39
Like culturally speaking?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:42
Yeah, culturally too. Or like, culturally or religiously? I don't know, like, just the practices that
they- or practices and beliefs that they have, compared to other people who are more loose, like
have you noticed a difference or what makes you think that they're more traditional?
Fatha Ahmed 10:59
I would say just like celebrating cultures maybe like. I mean not cultures, but like something like
holidays like Ramadan. I would say like, because Ramadan is like the holy fast of the- We fast
for a month, so I would say that we do more things in that month and most other cultures to do.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:21
Okay. Interesting. So um, what do you mean by that like? Like are you more stricter on fasting?
Fatha Ahmed 11:28
Well yeah I mean at first when I started- I started fasting was like nine and then before that my
parents would not care. Like I didn't have to fast. But I started when I was nine years old like
we've had every day until like, you know when you get older like when you're not able to fast.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:51
So do you pray often?
Fatha Ahmed 11:53
Yes, we pray- I pray often, yes. We pray five times a day like one in the morning before sunrise
or during sunrise. And then there's one in the evening, one in that afternoon, one before- during
sundown, and then one later, later that night. So like different times of the day.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:17
Do you tend to follow with that five different times?
Fatha Ahmed 12:20
Yes. It's hard when you're at school, because it's like, you're in class when it's time to pray, but
like, if you're like, late, you have to do it before the next prayer. So, but not too late. But like
before next prayer you're okay.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:37
What do you do if you're on campus then? Do you go to like the areas we have?
Fatha Ahmed 12:43
Yes, in Hagfors there's a prayer room. So you just go in there, it's open to everyone. You just go
in there and pray and then on Fridays, there's weekly Friday prayer. So like, everyone goes and
like just reads like, specific like passages from the Quran or from the Hadith and then you just
pray and then yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:07
So how long is like the Friday prayer?
Fatha Ahmed 13:10
It usually lasts about 20 minutes. They have speakers sometimes. So yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:17
Is it during chapel hour? Or when do they have it?
Fatha Ahmed 13:19
Usually- It changed because of daylight savings. So it's usually around like 12:10 or 12:15
around there.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:30
Okay, how many people are usually there?
Fatha Ahmed 13:34
Um. I mean I would say like a good amount like maybe like 20 people. I mean, there's people
that like don't want to miss class, because I think it's between- that's during a class and like
almost after a class too, but it's pretty difficult for some people to get a class, because the
professor doesn't like want you to miss anything big or anything. But if you have time, if you can,
if you're able to, like it's encouraged to go to Friday prayer.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:01
So then have you always gone there like since- because you're a second year? Right?
Fatha Ahmed 14:05
Yeah, I am.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:06
So then, have you always gotten there since freshman year too? or when did you start going?
Fatha Ahmed 14:12
I started going maybe it's this year? The school year. Yes, I usually go, yeah, during my- one of
my classes I leave early and sometimes I don't, but sometimes, like if I have an exam, I usually
don't. But when I do, I usually go when I have time to go.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:30
So how does it make you feel or what drives you to go there?
Fatha Ahmed 14:34
Just like that God is watching me like, I'm doing this just for him.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:41
So, um, are you involved in anything in the Somali Muslim community or like on campus?
Fatha Ahmed 14:49
I have been involved with a couple of student organizations. MSA, which is Muslim Student
Association, and then PASU which has Pan African Student Union.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:01
Um, can you tell us your experiences and those two organizations?
Fatha Ahmed 15:06
For MSA, it's actually pretty nice this year, because they have weekly halaqas, which is like
weekly, like meetings like about different topics. Like I think couple weeks ago there was one
about marriage in Islam. So we talked about like, like, when is it appropriate to get married and
a strict like, like during school? Because some college students they get married, some college
Muslim students get married around this time. So like, just about that, like marriage and like, if
you're ready or not.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:40
Interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 15:40
And then for PASU, I haven't been involved with it this much this year, but I would say that it's
going okay, but I feel like I'm more connected with MSA than I am with PASU.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57
And why do you think so? Is it just like the religion involved? Is that why?
Fatha Ahmed 16:01
I would say. Yeah, because PASU was mostly like for like black African Americans, which I am
but I don't feel like I'm connected to it, in some way. But I am with MSA.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 16:13
Interesting. Do you think or what is your favorite part about being a part of the Somali
community?
Fatha Ahmed 16:21
My favorite part? Of being a part of being in the Somali community. Um, well, just getting to, i
don't know, getting to meet like new people probably. To like different like, different like
religions, like at the Brian Coyle down- down Sixth Street right here. There's like many different
cultures that come in to like this community center. And I used to volunteer across the street.
The Cedar Riverside Learning Center, I think something like that. So what I would do is help
older people, who don't know- that in go to school when they're young to like learn English and
learn like
math and science and stuff.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:10
So you were like a tutor or?
Fatha Ahmed 17:12
Yes, I was. And learn- Oh yeah, they were learning the computer too. They have never seen a
computer before. So they're adjusting to that
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:20
That's cool! Yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 17:21
'Cause they sacrificed their lives for their kids so theyChyanne Phravoraxay 17:25
So then these were mostly immigrants then?
Fatha Ahmed 17:28
Yes, there are immigrants. All Somali immigrant from what I see.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:33
And so you stated the- your favorite thing about being a part of the Somali community? Is there
anything you'd like to change or like some issues that you feel should be addressed within the
community?
Fatha Ahmed 17:48
Within the Somali community or?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:49
Yeah, Somali.
Fatha Ahmed 17:51
Um, I mean, there was a lot of like, there are a lot of incidents about like guns in the Somali
community. About how all, like Somali men are like getting killed. And I feel like we should be
like more open minded with learning about like, what that can do to someone, especially the
Somali moms who like felt that they didn't like do a good job as a mother. So I would say like
being more open minded with that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:27
Interesting. So are you so you're talking about like shootings in Minneapolis or?
Fatha Ahmed 18:32
Yes, shootings in Minneapolis.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:35
Who do you think you look up to in like- as a Muslim woman?
Fatha Ahmed 18:41
As a Muslim,? I will look up, I would say my mother and my grandmother. They're like the two
most influence in my life, because my mother sacrificed her education for her kids. Same with
my grandmother was her mom. But for my mom, she didn't- she only got her high school
diploma and then she came here and she wanted to go back to school, but then she had me. So
i'm carrying on that legacy.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:07
So do you think you feel any pressure as the oldest woman in your family like out of your
siblings?
Fatha Ahmed 19:12
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:13
Yeah?
Fatha Ahmed 19:13
My mom's always on me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:14
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 19:15
Yes. Like, as a first generation student. Like she always told everyone like, I go to school here,
do that. She's like, yeah, I mean, she wants me to do good, but yeah. Especially my, yeah, I
would say my mom especially like, she wants me to like, be focused on school and like, not
work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:37
Oh, really? She doesn't want you to work.
Fatha Ahmed 19:38
No.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39
And do you work?
Fatha Ahmed 19:40
I do work. Of course I work. I can't be broke. But yeah, she just wants me to focus on like, like
my career like what I'm going for.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:51
And do you feel like you have pressure to take care of like your younger siblings as the oldest
too?
Fatha Ahmed 19:57
Um y eah, when did senior year, when she would work and my dad would work too. It was a
struggle like balancing school, work, and then them too. So but it was- I, we got through it. My
mom was- she was there for me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:13
So who were you looking after? Like, can you state your siblings? Like ages and names
maybe?
Fatha Ahmed 20:20
Like right now? Their age and their name?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:22
Oh, yeah. Just like, yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 20:24
Ok, so I'm 19, I'm the oldest. Then my sister is 17. Then I have a brother who's 16 and then
another brother, that's 15. And then I have another brother who's 13? I don't know, 13, maybe?
And then I have a sister who's 10 and another sister, that's seven. Yes, seven and then I have
two younger brothers that are twins and they just turned four.
Yeah, big family.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:51
Yes! So can you state which ones are currently in Kenya with your mom?
Fatha Ahmed 20:56
So the 13 year old and rest. The younger ones. They're 13, 10, 7, and the twins are with my
mom. So five of them are with my mom and then the four, the older ones, are here with my dad.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:08
Oh, okay. And so do you live with your dad at the moment?
Fatha Ahmed 21:11
Yep.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:12
And have you always lived with him?
Fatha Ahmed 21:15
Yep, both my parents. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:17
Is it in Minneapolis or St. Paul or?
Fatha Ahmed 21:19
St. Paul, yeah. I moved from, where did I move from? Falcon Heights. Because it was a three
bedroom apartment and my family kept growing every year. So I was like "it's tiem to get a
house".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:33
So moving on to like young adulthood or I guess right now, um, so can you state why you chose
Augsburg?
Fatha Ahmed 21:42
Why I chose Augsburg. I chose Augsburg for many reasons. For one, it was close to home,
because my dad was not letting me go out of state. The second reason was, it's a small school,
which means like smaller class sizes, which is like beneficial me, because if I went to the U, that
would be like 600 students in one class and I wouldn't have like that interaction with the
professor like I do with the ones here. And then I would say, like, diversity. There's a lot of
diversity here on campus, which is actually pretty nice because there's more involvement. And
then, yeah, financial aid.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:24
So when you were applying like in your senior year, did you already know this was your top
choice?
Fatha Ahmed 22:31
My- this was actually my third choice. Yes, so my first choice was the U of M. And then it was
St. Kate's, and then Augsburg. For the U of M, I don't know like I just wanted to go to school
because you know, everyone was going to that school. So I was like, you know, what is my
number one choice. But I didn't like, think like, what like, like, what aspects of what the U of M
has. Like the class sizes, like, getting to there, I would say. But- and then St. Kate's, I was going
to go there for my previous major, which was nursing. But then I realized, like, that's not what I
want to do anymore. And I just went to Augsburg, because it had all the components that I
wanted.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:15
So then did you have a major in mind coming in your first year?
Fatha Ahmed 23:20
Yes. When I- well before, well senior year, I was like, throughout high school, actually, I wanted
to be a nursing major. Like it was always nursing, nursing, nursing, nursing. When I got to
Augsburg, I was like, you know, I'm gonna do biology. And then I realized, I didn't want to do
that either. So I went from biology to business to then social work, 'cause I always liked helping
people. So I was like, nursing, doctor? Like, that'll be like, perfect. But then I'm like, that's not
what I wanted to do when I came to college. So I just decided to do social work, because that's
the same thing like helping people. So yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57
And so have you you've taken a few courses that go towards social work?
Fatha Ahmed 24:01
I did, yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:03
Yeah. And how do you feel about the profession? What makes you want to stay in?
Fatha Ahmed 24:09
I actually like it. It's actually pretty like flexible. I want to get into foster care and CPS especially.
So I hope to take classes that helped me deal with that in the future.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:22
And what makes you lean towards foster care and CPS?
Fatha Ahmed 24:27
Well, I like kids, to start with, and then just helping people. So helping kids will be like, like a
dream.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:37
Interesting. Are you involved in any like programs? Because I know I did it- I did ask you if
you're involved in any, like specific Muslim stuff. Are you involved in anything else?
Fatha Ahmed 24:51
Yeah, so I'm involved in TRIO Upward Bound. I'm in that. I was in high school. It was called
Upward Bound, yeah. All three, all four years of high school I was it and then I realized that
Augsburg had a TRIO program. TRIO has a Success Program here. So I applied for that. And
then I got in and then, so I meet with my academic advisor every- once a month. So we just
talked about like, how classes are going like financial aid, scholarship opportunities and like
workshops.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 25:24
Interesting. So do you being in TRIO- Do you ever like, Do they ever have events where you get
to, like interact with other TRIO students or no?
Fatha Ahmed 25:34
Yes, we do. We do like workshops. So yeah, we see- We do like multiple things like we do
LinkedIn, like setting up your LinkedIn account, like this internship workshop, and like other
ones to like FAFSA workshop, so if you need to get your FAFSA done, they help you.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 25:55
Interesting and anything else on campus? That you are either involved in or used to do?
Fatha Ahmed 26:03
I was in- I was a treasurer for Women for Political Change last semester. I would say- it was just
for a couple months. But I would say that was one of the groups I like the most, because I don't
know, I like it was advocating for women. And like, yeah, I mean, it was a good experience while
lasted but yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:26
Is it not up anymore?
Fatha Ahmed 26:27
It's not. No, because most of the board members are studying abroad.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:31
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 26:32
So we decided to like take a break for a while. Maybe started it up next semester again, but I
don't know quite yet.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:39
Okay. And then so you do think you would be on the board again, like it would just continue on,
if it were to start off?
Fatha Ahmed 26:45
Yeah, probably. Most likely.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:47
So you did mention that you work. So where do you work?
Fatha Ahmed 26:51
So I currently have two jobs right now. I've been working at a retail job, JCPenney, for about
three years now. And then I work here on campus at University Events and I started that last
semester too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:05
So what do you do for your on campus job the University Events?
Fatha Ahmed 27:10
So University Events is like a office that like coordinates like events that happen on campus. So
like if you have an event on campus, you go through them and like they help you like set up and
like help you schedule like stuff you need, like catering and everything. And if you need a room
for a meeting, they will like schedule them for you.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:31
Oh, okay, so then is it like a lot of computer work then?
Fatha Ahmed 27:35
I mostly do like emails like I schedule people's rooms and like, if I do have time I schedule like
events like any event, that happens on campus, that's all University Events.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:46
Okay. So what are your goals for the future?
Fatha Ahmed 27:51
My goals for the future are to get my bachelor's in social work. Maybe masters? But I don't know
yet, but I hope to work with child- CPS and foster care kids and like help them.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:09
And do you think you'll stay in the Twin Cities after you graduate?
Fatha Ahmed 28:13
Yes, probably 'cause I might get homesick.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:18
So you did mention that you're raised more traditional, do you think you would pass that on to
your kids too? Or do you think it will be more loose?
Fatha Ahmed 28:27
I would say more traditional, because that's what my mom would want. To set a good example,
like she did with me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:36
Are your parents more traditional, like do you think that they think of interracial relationships? Or
do you think of interracial relationships? Or interreligious too.
Fatha Ahmed 28:48
Yeah. My parents are not for that actually. I don't know I might be. If the person is like, like, has
a stable job. Or if he's actually worth it. But, um, but yeah, we just like get to know them instead
of like making assumptions. Like "Oh they're not Somali because this or that".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:14
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:15
But I'll be more open to it rather than my parents.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:18
Do you think there would be like difficulties within your- like if they were maybe like a Christian?
Do you think it would be difficult to navigate that relationship?
Fatha Ahmed 29:29
If I was with a Christian?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:30
Yeah, if you were with a Christian.
Fatha Ahmed 29:32
Yeah, that would be like a no go.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:34
For sure?
Fatha Ahmed 29:36
Yeah, it has to be a Muslim Somali person. It can't even be just be like Muslim.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:43
Oh, are you talking about your parents or yourself?
Fatha Ahmed 29:45
This is my parents view.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:46
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:47
I can't date or marry someone that's not Somali or Muslim.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:52
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:54
Somali- Well yeah. I can date someone that's Somali. I mean, get married to someone that's
Somali. But if it's a Muslim, like they have different- well we all have the same views but like,
they still don't want that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 30:06
Interesting. Okay. I guess we can touch on like the- how you celebrate Eid here. Do you?
Fatha Ahmed 30:15
Oh, yeah. So it's- how I said it was different in Kenya, in America we usually just like go pray
and like like go to like Mall of America or something like that, like for the kids. It's like good for
the kids, but like older people like we usually just like go pray and then just go home and like
clean around the house,9 because it's like a day off, so you have nothing really to do. But in
Kenya, no one stays home. Everyone's outside or like at a party or something, which was
actually pretty nice, because we're not allowed to stay at our house. So we usually- in Kenya
when I went, first Eid, we went to the biggest- the mall, that was biggest mall in, I think the East.
Yeah, biggest mall on the East side of Africa. So and then, for the next Eid, we just went to- I
stayed home, but my siblings went on like these amusement parks and stuff. And they wereand they actually said that they liked Eif better there, than in America.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 31:24
So when you went to Kenya did all your siblings and your dad come to? With you, like to visit
your mom?
Fatha Ahmed 31:30
No. So May of this year my mom, my five younger siblings, and I went to Kenya. And then I
came back by myself in the end of August. Before school started. The end of August. But my
dad stayed here the whole time with my three other siblings. So only five of the younger ones,
my mom, and me went. I just went for the summer, to like help for- like with the kids like going.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 31:56
Oh, okay. And then they stayed back then?
Fatha Ahmed 31:58
They stayed back. She has a house over there, so.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:00
Ok, interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 32:01
Yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:03
So then what does she do there? Like did it relate to her job in America?
Fatha Ahmed 32:10
No, she just wanted to move there. Like she's- it's stress-free over there, so she doesn't have to
worry about anything. There's someone that like- she has someone that cooks for her and
cleans for her. So she's actually a chilling. She likes it. She doesn't want to come back, but she
might come back to work again butChyanne Phravoraxay 32:29
Oh, so she doesn't work there?
Fatha Ahmed 32:30
Now she doesn't.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:31
Oh, wow. Interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 32:33
Yeah, so my siblings both- they all go to school there now. And then, yeah. They're actually
living life.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:42
Nice. Okay. So then when do you think your dad would move there?
Fatha Ahmed 32:48
Maybe when I graduate. He might move there becauseChyanne Phravoraxay 32:50
Oh, that's coming up!
Fatha Ahmed 32:51
I know, because i will be having a "stable", according to him, butChyanne Phravoraxay 32:56
So with that mean your siblings are gonna stay with you?
Fatha Ahmed 32:59
Yeah. I'm sure they might. I mean, I think one of them might come back. Like the 13 year old. I
think he might come back, because he wants to go to high school here and graduate here and
go to college. And then yeah, just chill and I don't know, we'll see. Two years from now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 33:15
So how is schooling there, like for your younger siblings? like Do they? Do they speak English in
schools or?
Fatha Ahmed 33:23
They do speak English. Yes, because there's mostly kids that I don't speak Swahili? So they
mostly speak English and everyone was English in Kenya. So that's good. The schools over
there, according to my brothers and my brother, he says it's way more stricter than they- in
America, because you have more like more work. Two times the work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 33:44
Do they pray? I mean, sorry. Do they pay for school?
Fatha Ahmed 33:47
They do, yes. It's like around the same amount. They actually do pay for school. YesChyanne Phravoraxay 33:50
Like as in, before like college then they are required to pay?
Fatha Ahmed 33:54
Yes, because it's like a private? I don't know. Just pay like for each kid. They have to pay. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:01
Okay, and then so then your two younger brother twins, they're not in school yet?
Fatha Ahmed 34:06
They start school because the age limit is starting to starting school over there is four years old.
So they're starting in January, because they just turned four, like two days ago. So they'll be
starting in January.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:19
Oh, interesting. Is that when like the school year starts?
Fatha Ahmed 34:25
Yeah it's different over there. So they have- So they go to school January, February, March.
They don't go to school in May, June. And then, oh, wait, they don't go to school- They go to
school May, actually. They don't go to school June, July. Then they go in August. They go
September and they don't go to October, November, December. It's so differently like I was
confused at first.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:51
So then it starts in January then?
Fatha Ahmed 34:53
Their school year like they're- Like a new grade for them starts in January.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:56
Oh, okay. Oh, so it's like with the New Year?
Fatha Ahmed 35:00
Mmhm. So that's when the twins are gonna start. I don't know what grade they're gonna start.
But they're gonna start school in Janurary. I don't know what grade level they start. I think K1? I
don't even know. It's different.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 35:11
When you visited Kenya- So who were you mainly interacting with? Like we were you there to
visit family or?
Fatha Ahmed 35:22
Well, yeah. I had some family in Kenya. I mostly interacted with my cousins. And then my
neighbors who first introduced me to Kenya, and I help me with adjusting to it. And then my
neighbor who happened to be someone I was seeing a couple months later, it was gonna be
like, he proposed to me. 8I got to know them, actually. Yes, I got to know him. And then he
proposed, like two weeks before I was leaving.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 35:59
Oh, really.
Fatha Ahmed 36:00
Yeah, so I was like, he was like a nice- He's a nice person. Like he has like this future set and
everything. So I went with it and like we try and make this long distance thing work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 36:11
Mmm. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 36:12
It worked for a couple months and then at first I was like, yeah, I can't do this anymore, because
long distance is like right really hard. They're like on the other side of the globe. But I still like,
talk to him from time to time. Maybe in the future when I'm actually ready ready, but he was
ready and I wasn't soChyanne Phravoraxay 36:34
Is that like, common? Like, do you think that they're ready at a younger age?
Fatha Ahmed 36:38
Yeah. I mean he was like two years older than me. So I feel like he was ready. He seemed
ready. But I'm 19 and I'm not ready for that yet. I feel like it's just like for someone that was born
in America, like they're set. Like they want to get married like when they're like 25 or something.
But people back there. They want to get married like when they're like 21 start having kids like a
year later or something.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:02
Okay, so then would they pursue college then while starting a family?
Fatha Ahmed 37:07
So he has a degree in engineering. He got it really early. He wants to- Yeah, he's been going to
school his whole life and then he's going for his master's pretty soon.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:16
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:18
But yeah. He was ready for it, but I wasn't. But we'll see in the future what happens..
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:24
So it's schooling different for college then? Like is it quicker is?
Fatha Ahmed 37:27
It's 6 years. He was doing engineering, so I feel like that was longer.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:32
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:33
He started when he was 17?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:37
Oh, wow. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:38
Yeah. So I don't know how many years of school he was in, but like he was in there for a while.
He got his bachelor's in engineering. He has a stable job and then he wanted to go for his
master's, so he's gonna go back to school, and then hope to get like a better job. But he travels
a lot so likeChyanne Phravoraxay 37:55
Oh, so you can meet up with him?
Fatha Ahmed 37:57
Yeah. Maybe.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:59
So can you like provide information on like the cultural aspects of marriages? So like, do you
guys have a certain tradition for marriages?
Fatha Ahmed 38:11
In Islam?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 38:13
Oh, so you follow the IslamFatha Ahmed 38:14
Yeah, well my parents follow the Islam one, so I'm pretty sure we follow the Islam one. So like
you marry someone that like you trust mostly and then you don't date them necessarily. Like
you get to know them and then your family- your parent, both your parents, if each side, they
meet, they talk and then yeah, there's like a wedding and everything and pretty basic actually.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 38:41
Oh, really? Like do you think it's similar to American weddings or other different aspects of it?
Fatha Ahmed 38:47
I mean, American weddings people usually meet like oh they met, they're friends, and they start
dating for like a long period of time, and then that's when they get married. But like in Islam, like
you get to know the person for like a while and then you just get to like the chase. You get to
them like right away. There's no time.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:04
Yeah. So how does the actual wedding like ceremony go?
Fatha Ahmed 39:11
Around noon, the men, only the men, are supposed to go to a mosque and then a imam like
reads like reads something to like the guy like his blessing. And then they eat, they just- like
their men congratulate the groom. And then later in the night, that's when the bride comes out
with her family- comes out with her and her family and her bridesmaids and everything. Just like
a regular basic wedding, but then we basically go crazy, during the nighttime.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:47
Oh, okay, so like how late is it? Like after sunset or like what do youFatha Ahmed 39:51
So they usually start like around 11 or midnight?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:54
Oh, that's when the bride shows up?
Fatha Ahmed 39:55
Yes. But actually that's when the bride shows up. The wedding starts around 9. So they do like
the dances and everyone's like just eating, dancing, and stuff. The bride comes in at 11 like
starts dancing with everyone and then she leaves to change. So she's wearing a cultural likecultural clothing. And then she leaves and it comes back with her groom. That's when all the
men come back. Yes, and then the wedding ends at like 4 the morning soChyanne Phravoraxay 40:23
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 40:24
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 40:24
So is there- What is the meaning behind like the time?
Fatha Ahmed 40:28
I don't really- don't know. Like, during the evening it's just the guys and then the night time. I
don't know what the meaning.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 40:37
So when you're talking about like the separation like when the guys come and the ladies comeso like, what are- what are both of them doing when they're not together then? Like, because
you said in the- at noon, it's like the guys and they're celebrating with the groom. So then what
are- what's the bride doing in the meantime, if they're not like at the wedding yet? Are they just
preparing or?
Fatha Ahmed 40:59
She- I think she preparing 'cause she gets her- the men are supposed to get like their, like their
blessings from like the dad and everything. Or something like that, before the wedding starts.
But the bride is just like preparing for the wedding and everything.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:15
So it's just like a one day thing then? Or like through the night?
Fatha Ahmed 41:18
So yeah, they have the wedding, during like the night and then I think they go on their
honeymoon like a couple of days later.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:26
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 41:28
Pretty crazy, but you knowChyanne Phravoraxay 41:30
So then you think that your wedding would be like that too?
Fatha Ahmed 41:33
Yes. I mean, Somali weddings are like big, like really big. It's like the whole Minnesota comes,
but I was- yeah, I mean, I want a small wedding, but I know I'm not gonna have a small
wedding. I know for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:47
Is that because of your parents? Like they want to throw a big one?
Fatha Ahmed 41:49
Yes. I mean especially my mom. She wants to invite like people from Europe.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:53
Oh, really? Well, you are the oldest.
Fatha Ahmed 41:55
That's true. But still. People from Europe? I don't even know them. She invites people that, we
like- She knows inside the family but like I barely know.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:03
Oh, okay. So then after the couple gets married, do they just living alone or?
Fatha Ahmed 42:08
Yes. Yeah, they have- When they get their house, they're not allowed to live together though,
until they get married. So they get their house before their wedding night. And then they usually
just- After the wedding, they just go to their house like official officially. But they're not allowed to
like stay together before they get married. Yeah, I guess it's like a sin or something?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:38
Is that like just the Islam way of thinking then?
Fatha Ahmed 42:41
Yeah, let's- Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:42
Okay. Interesting. So do you have any last things to say to the viewers or like any messages or
advice that you would like to give?
Fatha Ahmed 42:52
Oh, I would say that I would encourage like the community to like I get to know more people,
around like your neighbors or something- Or your neighbors and classmates or anyone like just
get to know them better for who they are. Not like, what their beliefs or like- Like just get to know
them as a persom and like just not their religion. Don't worry about like what they believe in or
like what their culture is. So just like, get to know them and see like a different side of them,
instead of making assumptions.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 43:24
Yeah. Alright, well, thank you for coming in.
Fatha Ahmed 43:27
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about i... Show more
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about it?
Sabrin Gadow 0:24
Yeah for example were you born in America?
Ash Farah 0:30
Oh no, I'm so I was born in Gadow, which is between the Borderlands of Somalia, Kenya and
Ethiopia. I was born in a village there with my mom. And we came to America actually through
--- I forget what exact humanitarian organization it was, but it was through them and we got to
re-located over to the United States.
Sabrin Gadow 0:52
That’s nice!
Okay, so what was your family like?
Ash Farah 1:00
Well, I'm the oldest I'm like, I'm the oldest son.
I also I come from a relatively small family for a Somali family. My siblings are Rahma, Ayub,
and Mohammed and I'm the oldest of them. I also have a stepbrother and stepsister, but they
were much older than I was so.
Sabrin Gadow 1:20
So what was your neighborhood growing up like?
Ash Farah 1:28
It was very Somalia. I grew up around a lot of somali people and my just you know, generally
very low income, we grew up on section eight and you know, like, there was no Eid gifts. The
Eid gifts were that you got to eat that day. You know that type of teas. Like it's pretty, pretty
simple.
Sabrin Gadow 1:40
Yeah. How's it like growing up in a Somali neighborhood, was it Muslim majority?
Ash Farah 1:47
Yeah, it was definitely Muslim majority, like Somalis are like 99.9% Sunni Muslim so yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 1:55
Yeah did you like that? Was it the sense of community? Did it make you feel safer? Was it just
was a nice for your mom?
Ash Farah 2:00
Yeah, it was very nice for my mom because she was a single mom. My dad left two years after
we like relocated. So it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other Somali women. And
it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other members of the community and from our tribe
and stuff like that, because they helped with like, childcare, getting a job, all the things that
make it really hard to relocate to a foreign country with children. You know, like, it's very hard.
So she didn't feel alone. She obviously grew up very Muslim and found solace in the masjid
and, you know, we went Dugsi [Islamic school] every like, I think, every Wednesday, Saturday,
Sunday, and on Friday and Sunday. Yeah, if my mom could afford it, she would send us even
more. But she's like, you know, and that kind of thing. She just really really loved Islam. And it
was very clear because everybody around me loved Islam.
Unknown Speaker 3:00
Yeah, you said growing up in Islam. How did growing up in Minnesota a sort of shape you? Do
feel like you've been on different path and if you grew up in this area that was so highly
concentrated in Somalis as well as Muslims?
Ash Farah 3:12
It's because of the like, certain. Like, I've met a lot of like, Somali queers across the world, UK,
London. I'm just friends, even Toronto, like just all these places that all these people, you know,
ran off to, and I think Minneapolis causes a certain socio political background that allows for it to
be very different than if I grew up in let's say, Denmark and was Muslim, there's less of a social
pressure to be more like ultra conservative in your interpretation of Islam. Like there are people
who have no problems with like, people not wearing Hijabs. You know like not wearing
traditional garments and stuff like that, at all. Umm just because of the you know, of the mixing
of culture there? Also because there's different Muslims, and it isn't just like the majority of
Muslim population there isn't Somali only. It's like there's Arabs, there’s people from Palestine. It
was, more you know, black Muslims, there’s you know converts and stuff like that. There was
like more diversity so that causes a little more lax opinions when it comes to like groupthink in
the community and stuff like that. So there's less, I don’t want to say less prejudice because
prejudice exists consistently throughout whatever society you go to but less rigidity I’d say.
Sabrin Gadow 4:38
You said the term ran off to what do you mean by that? Either term run off as in, like, places
they went off to?
Ash Farah 4:44
Oh yeah … Yeah! Like, um, you know, where people have ran off to. Like, you know,
displacement from the Civil War, so it makes sense for most people to have fled to the nearest
place that they could flee too. For example there’s Somali Queers that are living in Yemen or
Kenya, or Denmark and UK or Toronto and here. All very different in their experiences because
of the different environments that they are growing up in.
Sabrin Gadow 5:07
So you use a term Groupthink when referring to this close knit community of relations to find
that sense of this my community and stuff like that. How do you feel group think affects people
who aren't like, how do I phrase this in a nice way, people who aren’t like the typical idea of
what Somali Muslim should be?
Ash Farah 5:30
Mmmh, To put it lightly, I've learned a lot of things in my life, which is, if you go against the
majority opinion on faith based issues, people respond very emotionally very, like personally
and personally attacked because this is something that is very, very, close to their heart and
they think this is right. Particularly it was harmful for me growing up because of being a child
and stuff like that. So people see you as saveable, as fixable, and they don't want you to go
through what they see it as the worst punishment on earth for all of eternity. So they want to
help the this kid out by any means necessary and sometimes those means are violent.
Sometimes they're ostracizing. Sometimes they're, you know, like conversion therapy. So by
any means necessary to help another like member of your community out. And I am at the age
where now I know that it comes from this place -- it comes from like a kind of a good hearted
place despite the impact that had on me growing up. And it makes sense for people especially
here in Minneapolis, especially in the somali population, and the older Somali population here in
Minneapolis to cling on to their faith even more so than they would back home because they
literally had to give up so much of themselves and Minneapolis is vastly different than where
they're growing up. I like had this conversation with my mom and she was explaining how much
she missed she missed sugar canes and how much she missed like the masjid that she would
go to and like just the how vastly different growing up in Somalia versus living here in this
tundra! with no sun, like, just off. Even the food's off! All this, so it's very understandable, they
would cling on to their faith even harder, like even more strict because that’s one of the only
things they got to keep. Not their houses and no they're --- like my mom witnessed, you know
soldiers break down Hawo Tako [Statue] not even their culture when it came down to it. You
know, so they have this one very, very, tangible thing that they can hold on to and to see their
kids either rejecting from that path or from their particular interpretations very, very, very harmful
to them. And it makes sense. It does. But it doesn't make it right, but yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 7:50
Yeah. Such a nice way to think of it.
Ash Farah 8:00
For example, my mom had this first incident like the moment we got here, like of course, we
landed in New York. We're on this escalator and she was holding me and a man decided to
yank her hijab. And this is, like yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 8:10
So sorry!
Ash Farah 8:12
And it was, you know, it was post 9/11. My mom was wearing a huge Jilbab, which is, you know,
like, you know, she's 6’1’. So she sticks out of the crowd and stuff. Like that this guy got a rise
out of it. He was drinking too much at the airport. And I fell, tumbled on all these steps on this
escalator and my mom, a) has never seen an escalator. And that was her first like, initiation into
American culture, which is very violent and very against your faith. So what people do when
there's an opposition and an oppression, is they cling on to it even more. And over time, I got to
see my very, very liberal mother become more and more of a literalist, when it came to the
Koran, and when it came to faith and stuff like that, because of just the concentration of the way
American bigotry is against Muslims in particular. Where else you might not see that as much.
Like you do see some islamophobia but it does not come off as directly violent as American
Islamophobia is.
Sabrin Gadow 9:14
American Islamophobia is truly something different. You mentioned something about growing up
with a liberal mother and her changing into more of a literalist, because of the community she
was apart of and the community that she held ties to. How did that feel growing up and going
into somali spaces and having different ideals and values based on you?
Ash Farah 9:33
Oh, it was very, very difficult.
I was a young child, ahhh, weird child. I did not speak till the age of eight. I just had all these like
external issues going on in my life that my mom had to deal with having a kid that had needs
that needed to be met like I needed a speech therapist and it was a mysterious came --- due to
an illness I had as a kid. Just had no answers and had to navigate the system by herself in this
country by herself. So, I watched her become this very laissez faire, like, mother of like, you can
play with Barbies, you can play with GI Joes. And you can, like watch. We used to watch john,
john wayne westerns, because she used to love those together and stuff like that and watch her
become very, very anti-westernization and more like faith based and like literalist Islam, stuff like
that. Like I want my children to be hafiz. I want them to go to Dugsi all the time because the
counter effect would be like they'd end up like the kids in my neighborhood, the black kids she
saw in the neighborhood who were dealing with socio economic issues that like lead them down
certain paths. So she really honned that in.
Ash Farah 10:56
Of course, it was very unlucky for me because I'm a trans man. So I was born female and
assigned female at birth. And I was trying to communicate that with no words to my mom. So it
wasn't very --- AND to my peers who obviously picked it up really quickly. It's kind of hard to like,
not pick up on that, especially since the more literalist interpretations of Islam have stricter like
gender roles and gender guidelines. So it quickly became very, very hard for me to focus on
Fiqh and like learning about Islam, and going to Dugsi and stuff like that when there was literally
a partition, deciding if I was like, what roles I would have to play and do all that. And it was very,
very, very difficult because I felt like there was something wrong with me. That my entire
community was trying to help me because I was flawed and broken and a burden onto my mom.
Ash Farah 12:00
My mom would get a lot of help and support because people would see, you know, her like,
weird kid and stuff like that. So it was a mutual. Like I saw the benefit of that, but also meant
that through egging on of various community members, my mom, so shovel me into Quran
Saar, which is like people reading Quran over, you know, children usually have, you know,
illnesses or like something wrong with them or just or being seen as possessed. So I dealt with
that. And it got increasingly worse, because my mom started to notice she had more of a
community around her. And that’s what she really needed as a single mom who literally just
could not afford much, and it led me down to having a really, really harsh ‘bout with Islam.
Sabrin Gadow 12:58
You talked a little bit about you being a transman, do identify with any other communities?
Ash Farah 13:02
I---- this is a par, or a question that I get a lot. I really do identify as being Somali. Identify with
the muslim identity. I identify as trans identify, I identify as LGBT, and I don't see how, I know a
lot of people see that as like in, incomprehensibly, untetherable like you cannot tether those
identities together, they cannot exist in a human being. I even get it from somali people like you
are either Muslim or your gay, or you can't be trans and Muslim. You know, like Somalis don't
have gay people or something like that. That's white people shit, and all that kind of stuff. But I
really truly hold, hold all those things. So.
Sabrin Gadow 13:57
So beautiful. You hear a lot about Somali hate being gay. But we definitely do hear something
about Somalis queers, who don’t have faith and Somali Queers who do have faith.
Who talk about feeling like they couldn't be somali and clear and also have Muslim as well. Do
you feel like you fit into that? In the sense that -- I’ll rephrase the question, how does it feel to be
ostracized in multiple communities and do you feel that you had to build a community from that?
As in a sense where it's like being a Somali Queer openly, like a visibly queer person, trans
person, and also living with that as well. But how do you feel because your ostracized in those
that small intersections.
Ash Farah 14:42
Right? Like I felt since I couldn't find family and I couldn't find ummah basically, I couldn't find
community in Islam, because of you know, various interpretations of the faith deciding that I
could not --- that my existence was non congruent with their form of Islam.
I decided to not listen to any of that.
Sabrin Gadow 15:05
How does it feel to be consistently told that your existence is untrue? Nah, like that its like an
idea that's a made up and came from forced westernization. And how did you find community
within that?
Ash Farah 15:17
I forced it. I figured out a young age since couldn’t find ummah within Islam. And I couldn't find
solidarity in my blackness. Because I, you know, as a kid, I like really was trying to find a space
where I wasn't seen as “other” entirely, um, I would try out like black identity and stuff like that,
but it's very hard because African Americans and African people have this long going, you
know, issue between the two. And it's just due to coming from different experiences of
Pan-African identity. I did a civil rights research tour, in order to like, better known about, you
know, the struggle of black African Americans and stuff like and found that I was within that, but
also separate and had to unpack that. I also had to unpack that in LGBT spaces that I went to
Minneapolis, were very white centric, very had various ideas of what it meant to be Muslim. And
I encountered a lot of Islamophobia. And a lot of racism too. So I felt great. So I'm too, I'm too
black, and too African and too Muslim, to be an LGBT spaces consistently, I'm to LGBT to be in
Islamic spaces, I'm too, you know, like, African and queer to be in black spaces. So I decided,
fuck it, I'm going to find and forge, and make community and make a chosen family and, like
make spaces for us to be, you know, for people like me to seek them out. Even though it's very
much, people say it's very much in your best interest to not claim all three of those identities
because even one of them. Islamophobia alone kills, homophobia alone kills, transphobia alone
kills, and anti blackness kills. But to claim all three and to be looking for other people like you, is
to literally, literally, paint a target on your head and say that's better. Maybe if I find two other
people like me, it'll be worth being consistently shot at.
Ash Farah 17:29
And I decided that at a very young age.
Sabrin Gadow. 17:36
Is this where your activism stems from?
Ash Farah 17:40
Ummm yeah actually. Yeah, like one thing of the things that I really liked about Islam, was it
that. I'm actually thankful for it because I love the story and Nabi [prophet] Mohammed.
Sabrin Gadow 17:51
Oh, could you explain the story?
Ash Farah 17:52
I'm as if we're not both. Okay. I don't know.
All right.
Ash Farah 18:00
He was the last prophet according to the Quran, and he grew up in Mecca during the time of
like, political strife. He was from the Quraish tribe even though he was an orphan, and he
literally been he started. He like was anti-idolatry. So this worship of idols and the trade of idols,
which was a lot of commerce to Mecca at the time, on against the various political and social
issues, like slavery, and the mistreatment of slaves and mistreatment of women and
mistreatment of orphans like himself and was very much a social, a social, like activist if you
really think about it, because I'm only an activist will be exiled out of a country for political
reasons. You know, asylum status alone. Literally went to Medina because his message was
just not sitting well with the people in power, because the message was of peace and it was of
like very very, very stark social change. And people were just not having it. And I found his story
to be really inspiring because even though people call him a madman, crazy like, called him a
liar, said he was possessed, all the things from like, for literally you know, for nothing more than
being honest and what he was known for being honest. And these are all traits that I, you know,
growing up really, really like held onto. And, you know, he spoke for a lot of broken people, and
even in war times had all these rules and I just really inspired to be like him.
Sabrin Gadow 20:00
You mentioned something about him being for the people, social activists and a comment you
said was that only an activist would do something like this, do you think because you were so
visibly queer, visibly trans that you and all that stuff that you kinda even chose this path and
more like directed to it and lead on it?
Ash Farah 20:16
Yeah.
Also, what I liked about him and his story was, he didn't have a say in being Nabi. He really
didn't have the say in being a prophet, an angel like just decided. Okay, you're going to read
today, even though he couldn't, um, and stuff like that. I just, he didn't have a say in the role he
was put in. I don't think I did really like I think I had to speak for a lot of people who are able to
speak for themselves. I met a lot of queers and somali queers that were silenced or were being
killed or were, you know, one way or the other forced back into the closet through finances
through just threats of absolute violence and All these, you know different things. So I decided
— I like when I learned to speak, I decided to actually speak for people who needed to be
spoken for. And I held that. And that's the type of activism I do.
Sabrin Gadow 21:20
Is that how you define activism?
Ash Farah 21:23
Now, I feel like activism is just an individual who's trying to create social change. And that's like
when people say, well, that's very vague. That's true, because there's different forms of
activism. What type of activism I like to focus on and do is called healing justice. And healing
justice is mainly focused on trying to heal and create spaces for people and communities who
don't have space for those who are being under attack or ostracized or things like that. And
don't have spaces where they can be themselves, access resources, heal them deal with their
mental like, find housing resources, very direct action type teas when you meet up with people.
And because there's — no one really gets it better than someone who's going through it.
Ash Farah 22:18
So that's the type I do. There's different types. There's, of course demonstrative which was the
type you see when you see people protesting. There's media, which is more based on
awareness and getting the word out. There's journalism, there's direct, direct line journalism,
which you can see people at Gaza, you know, partaking in. There’s, you know, charitable based
or like, income based or people who work in lobbying, which I have done work in. Like all these
different things.
Sabrin Gadow 22:35
Do you prefer doing like more active work and creating more healing spaces or just doing the
work to heal people with their own traumas up, of just being consistently being attacked or
harmed, rather than things like lobbying or more demonstrative work?
Ash Farah 23:00
Um, yeah, like I got to work with out front. And as they are an LGBT lobby group in Minnesota
against conversion therapy and trying to get a band. Luckily this year they got a ban after
literally, since I was 15 pushing this. I'm so very excited about that. I'm like, I saw the
administrative stuff like the overarching side of activism. I've also partaken in demonstrations
like how I've actually held rallies at the state capitol, I've interviewed politicians and talk to them.
Like I sat down with Ilhan for God knows how long trying to explain LGBT him some issues. And
I got to see that and I got to see lobbying firsthand. I worked in anti violence for a minute. I also
did a lot of you know, I was a kid. So I did a lot of LGBT activism through my school. I did a
documentary based on the experiences of a trans student going through local education system
Minneapolis. I also did over 200 teacher trainings to educate educators on how to better support
and aid trans and LGBT students. I like went to various schools, there were some very, very
against the message that I was trying to do and the say, which was simply just the best policies
is to be inclusive.
Um, there's also I also got to see, like gone to countless protests, for BLM, for Black Lives
Matter. I've gone to black immigrant collective and helping here. I've done direct service work
with Minneapolis Transgender Health Coalition, and they're shot clinic and trying to reduce harm
to trans and LGBT folks through medicine. So I got to see a lot of different types of activism and
truly and honestly, nothing would bring me more joy and more impact than directly meeting with
people in crisis and helping them get resources that they need. I'm talking with 13 year olds, 14
year olds, who are just kicked out of their house and need to be connected with various
resources. And you know, we'll have someone there to show them that hey, it does get better
even if it's consistently shitty.
Ash Farah 25:49
And like just having umm like having people call you for and reach out being like hey I’m Muslim
and queer. I don't know how my family is going to be like this. How do I go about getting
financial independence? Various like, helping like people online, trying to get resources for visas
and visa help an asylum status and get into the US from Kenya. I briefly worked on this project
with mossier which involved a chicken farm in Kenya where a lot of LGBT women, lesbian
women, with their children and of course because you know, like it's a product of the situation
they're in, like, get gainful employment, because gainful employment allows people to have a lot
more safety net and be less targeted. And obviously I'm supposed to go do that documentary
project over in Kenya but umm my immigration status at the time was not going to be left to test.
It is one thing to go help another thing to permanently stay.
But yes, it’s truth.
Sabrin Gadow 26:50
Umm yeah that’s definitely valid.
Ash Farah 26:55
But yeah, I don't know. I like I've seen a lot of it. I think nothing helps more than what I'm doing
now, which is directly connecting with muslim queers on a one to one basis and giving them
hope and resources.
Sabrin Gadow 27:11
That is definitely important work considering how it’s very not talked about.
Ash Farah 27:13
It’s not very glamorous, it's not like, and it's good that it's not talked about often times, like, I
think one of the most horrifying times in my life was, I was in this one documentary called out
north. A lot of people may have seen it. It's about LGBT history in Minnesota.
And I was helping the director, as a high schooler, like just, you know, like, interview folks,
cameras and all that. And I decided and he decided to throw me in and talk about the Somali
LGBT experience I had growing up. I talked about how Brian Cole the center was named after a
gay man, a gay man publicly against the Vietnam War. And things like that would affect like, anti
war myself. So it worked out
and I only learn this because I wanted to know how, because that was a center I grew up with,
like, it's right around, cedar and it's majority Muslim base and stuff like that. And I remember
being literally shoved behind the bleachers, for being nothing more than myself. And I found it
weird that that was the name associated with the building. And if he knew what was happening,
how he would feel, and I talked about that. And of course, I didn't know that TPT which was on
was free TV, and the entirety of my neighborhood saw it. And I got a flood of like, threats and
death threats and people being obviously righteously mad.
Sabrin Gadow 27:44
And what do you mean righteously mad?
Ash Farah 27:50
They're just mad because they were like, how dare this person speak on the unspeakable. This
is an unspeakable, shameful issue. You know, like, how can you? can't be both LGBT and
Muslim and you can also keep the community out your mouth and that kind of stuff because
we're still black and anti-snitching.
Sabrin Gadow 29:03
Say that period!
Ash Farah 29:16
God, um, and there's just. Umm it was at a time where the community was facing a lot more
police surveillance and CVE and a lot of friends working on it and, you know, countering CVE in
that process and it was just, I found it very, very, very difficult to hold all my intersections and
push for intersectionality in activism in all these different ways, because I was literally being
attacked for nothing more than, you know, posing a question and talking about, you know,
talking about my own experiences. And honesty, I learned at a young age really gets people like
hurt and killed and I worried for my family because my brothers and sisters were being chased
from school. Umm like, it was a horrific time. And now I realize, hey, since this is —
it brought like, yes, the visibility brought a lot of good things. But it brought me a lot of direct
physical harm, a lot of mental strife. So, I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to stop
activism. I was just going to target the people I wanted to target. I didn't care about those, you
know, white queers are watching this documentary, they're not the ones that I need to like,
reach out to or share this story with,
those real people who needed real help, which I would much rather do so yes, my activism is in
more of the shadows now.
But guess what, so are these people so I'm going where it goes, where the work is needed to
go.
Sabrin Gadow 30:45
I respect that. First, you talk about CVE and for those who don't know CVE is Countering Violent
extremism a program the government created to infiltrate like schools, public programs, things
that like they're getting federal grant money for. To like surveil people who are like being seen
as like being susceptible to joining terrorist groups. Things can seem simple as like people like
putting on hijab and not putting hijab has been more interesting in school life, things Iike being
more interested in Islam so like literally that was punishing curiosity. So as someone who was
around during this time with this documentary were you apart of part of the active against fight
against CVE.
Ash Farah 31:23
Yeah and I remember specifically going to um, I think Ilhan was speaking at this event at the
Bryant Cole about it and was confronted by a bunch of students like myself about this issue and
I remember sitting there in that room like in like, in that set like in front row sitting there with
myself like by myself, just like realizing that I look to the left of me, and I saw the Macalin that
like, you know, those Islamic school teacher that would torture me. Crying for their own kids and
worried about their own issues and just like, I remember that moment, like, I don't get to pick my
communities. But I wanted to be there for all sides of me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:19
That’s such an interesting thing to say all sides of you. Wouldn’t you consider it hard to sit there
and be in that kind of space, were you able to look yo you left and look yo your right and there’s
people have actively harmed you. We've been a whole situations or violence situations, and try
to fight with something that not only harms you, but your community as well, while they're
actively harming you. Like, for example, the out north one, the documentary that you came out
talking about being queer, and all that intersection of being queer, Muslim, and smally. And now
you're being harassed because of that, and then receiving, like threats because of that, and
then not being the space where you're actively advocating for people who wouldn't think for
you?
Ash Farah 33:00
Because that's the thing about justice you. You either want justice for everyone regardless of
how they are to you or you? You're not, you're not you don't just advocate and, like, wish good
things upon people because they like you. You know, like, I made peace with the fact that I
wasn't going to be liked by my community early on. But that doesn't mean people should be
surveyed. It doesn't mean people should be, you know, having Muslim bans and it doesn't mean
that, you know, like, our community should be pushed out through housing issues and initiatives
without their voice, you know, and all those things like, doesn't matter if they don't like me, or if
they wanted me dead, because that's more reflection on them than it is on me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:57
And that’s on period.
Ash Farah 33:43
You know, and, like, I just I remember, there's been so many like, I loved Islamic studies, and
Islamic stories as a kid. Because, literally if you —- Nabi Mohammed literally had the closest
saxabas [disciples] who were his closest companions were men who wanted him gone, who
wanted him dead, who wanted him you know, for better like during their times when they were
not Muslim. You know, like they truly believed all those horrible things and still reached out, still
did but did not resort to immediate violence and all that so I just found that admirable and you
kind of grew in with me and within my own philosophies of life.
Also, liked Isa [Jesus], but you know, like you can't be saying that too loud and in a masjid like
this, you know, because that's kinda like you riding a little Christian line there. What do you
mean Isa? But like, yeah, that like sense of like, turn your cheek sometimes.
It's not about you.
Sabrin Gadow 34:00
I like that because at the end of the day it’s for the community. Yeah.
Ash Farah 34:19
And part of it, whatever affects them, will affect me. It will affect my siblings, it will affect my
sister. So I am of the community like I got here through asylum status. So Muslim ban is very
serious. Like it's, you know, that kind of stuff. So, definitely.
Sabrin Gadow 35:18
You talk something — when you spoke about activism you do you spoke about healing and
healing through that, how's that relate to the major you chose at Augsburg?
Ash Farah 35:28
Well, I'm not gonna lie. The major I chose that Augsburg was bio psychology, because it was
the closest to neuro psychology because it was the study of the human mind. And I'm pre-med
because I am an African stereotype. And despite that, my mom really wanted me to be Poli-sci.
I like a lot of people thought it was going to be Poli-Sci because of, you know, just my interest in
activism and advocacy and all those sorts of things. But I just thought that I couldn't have both.
But I feel like you can pursue medicine. You can't pursue medicine without knowing the
communities that you serve, and stuff like that. So I think it made me more well rounded person
like, Yes, I wrote curriculum. The moment — that was the first job I got out of high school for the
superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools by asked me after all the basically unpaid
trainings and work that I did to help create curriculum around LGBT history, and I was the
youngest person to be able to do so just because of that sort of work. And I found that policy
and politics and lobbying and working anti violence directly and working with youth all that did
not bring me the same.
It all had the same overarching theme of healing that I was trying to get. And I think the closest
to you know, a traditional healer is a doctor. So I really am hoping to become a doctor so that I
could help support a lot of non like a lot of nonprofits. I wrote a very —- I was a grant writer for a
minute. So I know the struggle of trying to get funding for your communities when they're like,
poor low income, stuff like that. So having a little couple names before your name, to like, push
something along to help your community really does help. Also, we literally have the worst
outcomes for, you know, Somali people here and there's a lot of like medicine, misinformation
that was given out by shitty people to vulnerable members of our community, and referring to
the antivaxxers who and also like, there's just not a lot of mental health advocates in our
community, even though for a vast majority of our elders are suffering from PTSD.
Ash Farah 38:00
You can't watch your entire family drown in a ferry and expect to be normal and then dropped
into a random country, that the only thing you have is faith in your religion, and expect and strife
and you know and expect to be normal with a lot of, you know, a lot of the female. A lot of older
people, all the females in our community have had issues of sexual assault or witness sexual
assault, there are more times I have a ricochet bullet from where my mom, got shot, it's just not,
you know, like it's just not talked about because and we need to have people who look like us
be able to address these issues. So it's not just, you know, just pray on it. Because that's the
only way to stop these cycles of trauma and stuff like that. So I would love and love to be that
person. And also guess what trans people also horrific outcomes when it comes to health care,
and so do black people.
So I figured it was the perfect calling for me.
Sabrin Gadow 39:00
That’s amazing, you talk a lot about unspoken, and things that are not talked about and is that
underlying theme that you’ve noticed a lot? Like what things you don't want to talk about things
we don't want to see we push aside and let that bubble until we actually have to address it.
Ash Farah 39:20
Yes, I think um, there's a lot of issues like that, but in particular, like queer Muslims have existed
and will continue to exist. It's just we choose not to talk about that because it's much easier to
tell your family that that cousin or that sibling
left or disappeared or got sick, then deal with the fact that this is a problem that needs the like
Reformation that we need to change the way we view the way, the way we accept treatment of
LGBT Muslims in our community.
Because that is not a reflection on the deen [faith] but a reflection of us.
Sabrin Gadow 40:10
You talk a lot about change. Do you think that the younger generation will bring about this kind
of change?
Ash Farah 40:12
Yeah, like the younger generations, I've already noticed have been more accepting and more
like conscious and aware of these issues and stuff like that it just comes down to if there will be
less of a literalist interpretation, and less, you know, hatred, but in, you know, we say, with every
generation, it'll get better and stuff like that. But, you know, hatred has a way of being taught as
a way of like, being propagated like Frederick Douglass said, it's easier to build a boy and make
a man or something like that, you know, it gets really, you know, and I think we shouldn't be
reaching out to youth, if people see like, that gay people cause diseases or like, they'll be like
Sodom and Gomorrah, like Qumul-lut [The People of Lot] you know, and stuff like that. And that
they are just generally bad people.
And they'll believe it because we're only 7% of the population. So it's not that many and even
trans people is even less. But even then we're still the same amount of people that have red
hair, you know, but like, youth aren't seeing positive, like impacts and positive, like members of
the community and stuff like that, who are out, who are visible or doing things that are, like
consciously positive. We're not going to we're not going to spark change.
Ash Farah 41:29
Where were we?
Sabrin Gadow 41:31
Sorry for the small break we took. We had to go grab a drink of water. You talk a lot about
visibility, and you talk a lot about the things that aren't talking about, and spoken about but you
think you made the chose to be more visible or did you feel like you had to like it was a duty you
owed?
Ash Farah 41:41
Here's the thing about visibility. I came out to my entire family at five. I wrote down. I'm a boy! I
loved Vikings, I loved all sorts of more masculine things, and what the immediate assumption
was, was that I had a jinn.
That I was possessed with a jinn and a masculine jinn and stuff like that or that I had an evil
eye or something. So they of course started you know, conversion therapies and stuff like that
to help and eventually, like it became I was a very, very honest kid so that obviously didn't really
didn't work at all because it was nothing wrong with me. And I this, I don't think there was a point
in my life where I decided to not be visible, I think I was always visible except under threats of
violence. That was it and I would, in a wouldn't even be a threat to me, it would be a threat to
either my siblings or my mom. And at that point, I started to like realize around the age of like,
nine or so that I needed to not be as visible not be as loud about it because it actually had
terrible effects on my mother and my siblings and my family in general. And it was, you know,
like, and I went along with it, I acted like I was consistently cured. I delved into Islam trying to
find some loophole, some something, some Hadith that like, show that I wasn't just this, you
know, weird, pariah! That there had to be something to explain my existence. You know, and
because I knew was true, and I wasn't lying and all those things, eventually found out the
Hamza one of the Saxaba [disciple] was performed a gender reassignment surgery on what
they would call them Mukannahth, which are, you know, like men who resemble women is the
direct translation, but which are trans women and of course, you know, transmen existed too at
that time and even in our and then I started to
Think. Okay, well, if the Quran doesn't obviously have anything against being like trans andthe
only Hadith I found was for it. I figured out right then that there was nothing and that Allah didn't
hate me, but that my people did. And honestly, people have hated a lot of people over time for
stupid reasons, you know people just love to hate. And I decided right then and I wasn't going to
be ashamed of anything that I had. Because I knew that if there was an Allah, that Allah was
merciful. Because I always read those the first line before any Sura [Chapter]. Do you know the
Most Merciful so I’m like if that is really true, then I am going to be fine. And those who wish
violence upon me, will have to account for it on the Day of Judgment. I found very that was very
faithful in that sense.
And I decided not to hide anything because Allah made me the way I was.
And I decided to be visible. And in the sense of I decided not to lie, which was a sin anyway.
You know? And that's okay. AndI just and I got to the point where like, I had no choice but to be
visible because not to be visible was going to kill my soul. It was just, I would have to pretend to
be someone I was completely not to everybody that I love and that they would start to love this
random person that I created. And I was not what I wanted. I wanted people to either hate the
authentic me or love the authentic me, then to love with this image, I propagate and hide out of
fear.
So if it was a choice, I don't even think it was a choice. I think the idea that it can be a choice to
hide yourself is actually really harmful, because so many Muslim queers I hear are just like, oh
yeah. Yeah!
Just go back in the closet!
When it's detrimental to your health and your physical well being, and your will to live because
why would you live if you can't sustain love or be authentic to your loved ones, or be honest like
that's not a life you're just living in a shell of a person, even though for but it's justified for safety
and I just realized I had nothing to lose and when it came to, obviously I had my life to lose. I
had like family to lose it like I had to leave at 13 I was homeless throughout my entirety of my
teen years. I've been beaten more like more times than I can remember.
I just —- in the sense of I had nothing to lose in the sense of the only thing I would have lost
was a fake life
I'd rather die a real one.
[RADIO SILENCE]
Okay? Hi.
Nothing???
Sabrin Gadow 47:30
Ohh (laughter)!
Going off your comment of dying a real one.
How do you feel? Headass.
You talk about you know that you had nothing to lose, you talk about your work and activism
and how it affected your family, and what does your family think of your work?
Ash Farah 47:50
It took, I'm not gonna lie I was disowned. It took a long while for me to get to a point where like,
where my mom and I can sit down and talk and do all that because was the once I left like it got
slightly better for them and over time it did get better for them in terms of being targeted and
having these effects but the fact that I continuously reached out and was doing work and I mean
I was like 16 doing it trans rally at the Capitol like it was you know, I was they doing teacher
workshop so it was entering classrooms you know, I was going against conversion therapy. And
that included Islamic conversion therapy, and stuff like that. So it was very much like can’t you
just go away and being gay somewhere else? Can’t you just not claiming to be somali, I just
change your name, change everything about you become fully Americanized, to be able to be,
you know, and I said, No, because I love my culture, and I love my people. I'm going to keep
this about me.
And then my mom was like, well I don't want you to come back in a body bag, please stop
speaking out with this is really, who does this help? Who does this help? And I'm, like, you
know, stuff like that because all it's doing is like harming you and I had my ribs are smashed and
I was, you know, like sleeping from bench the bench and like, like during school it was just not
good. It was not a good time and but I don't know like I just got it took literally until I was 20 to be
able to, for my entire family to realize that my leaving was to protect them so they weren't as
much of a target because I could not live there. And still, you know, I'd rather starve begging but
like doing that then have my family affected by a choice that I made a choice that I thought was
living the honest life, you know, and it took a conversation with my Mom to be like, hooyo, Abu
Talib, loved his nephew Nabi Mohammed, even though he was literally causing hell for him, his
tribe, his well being, and being called the daily like a crazy person or possessed by literally
everybody in his life, but he still defended a man who went against his core faith, he still died a
Kufar, he still died a disbeliever. You know, he still doesn't know he's still worship idols, you
know, but it was because of my family means more than that, if you don’t see that, I will find
family, and it just won't be you. And it just we had that, you know, moment of like, catharsis
between us. It took literally me making it into adulthood, making it my way in, you know, living to
tell them story about it. For her to realize that I made a good decision for her, the Family and
ultimately myself, because I'm in a good place now.
Sabrin Gadow 51:11
You referring to a prophet of like his life stuff like that making awesome letters to his life in your
life? Do you feel like you were chosen as well?
Ash Farah 51:23
No no no noooo. As much as I am borderline Kufar, now I'm not committing shirk, I just found
inspiring. That's all! I just found him inspiring and I find it like a good metaphor and stuff like that
for me to like, talk to my mom and talk to people that will view me as like this weird opposing
like, crazy person talking about like, Oh yeah, you can be queer Muslim, you can not be Queer
you can be queer and from some background and decide not to be Muslim. You can be Muslim
and do X, Y, Z because from diverse people, you know, and stuff like that.
While trying to remind people that through their own faith and stuff like that, like
People have been like people have been closed minded before in the Quran and it's not ended
up well for them. So maybe don't be like that?
Unknown Speaker 52:13
How does it feel to be told that because of your multiple identities and that you can’t be Muslim
when you’re like an Islamic scholar —Ash Farah 52:23
Oh I’m not an Islamic scholar.
Sabrin Gadow 52:26
I mean, like you’d win at a lot of conventions and you’re great reciter and things like that.
Like does it feel to know literally so much about the Quran, how does it feel to have someone
quiet literally struggled through their alif, ba, ta, [arabic alphabet] looking you dead in the face
and say that you cannot exist.
Ash Farah 52:44
I love that because it's not that you cannot exist is that my brain does not want you to exist
because then they will have to come up with this idea that Islam is more than their narrow
definition of the faith. At the end of the day is supposed to be easy.
Like, there was, you know, the story of like maybe Mohammed going into, you know, riding and
the baqra. You know, like, going on, you know, going to up to Jannah [heaven] and seeing all
the prophets and from Adam to you know himself and stuff like that and Allah saying that, listen,
this was prescribed I forget the exact number 40 times a day or something like that and moses
of being like, Nah man, if you're going back because my people couldn’t do even less than that,
so go back and back and forth between him and allah and he stopped at 5, the they decided
upon five daily prayers. And the lesson behind was Islam supposed to be an easy faith
accessible to all, regardless of race, gender, orientation, all that and I just until they grasp that
concept over there need to be you know,
Superior or their own prejudice with using justify justifying through the Quran they can I don't
think they ever will wrap their head around my existence?
… and I'm okay making people's heads explode because every fourth person starts to realize
well yes you can have both because like you know allah created people like me. So and that
you don't know everything you're just a stupid human being so follow your faith and be kind to
others
Sabrin Gadow 53:41
we're humans we live learn and make mistakes and grow and prosper. So as you a student at
Augsburg, can you talk about what kind of work you do here or that you are involved in?
Ash Farah 54:59
okay man. Um so I was a part of QIPOC like queer indigenous people of color which is a
student group here created to make space for queer indigenous people of color, of course, it
became a branched off of QPA, which is the main LGBT organization on campus. I'm the
current president and was on the board last year, really to create a space where queer people
of color can come together, chill, find solace in each other find community and get provided with
the resources that they need through and be able to come to social events during the campus
and stuff like that find people who have stories similar to them. It is a space for people who are
out and not out on campus, which is one of the you know, only spaces where people are
allowed to do that.
We make sure events are for the healing of the fundamental healing of our community, you
know, and we do various activities. We do various fun you normally do. Come together type
things because, you know, like, I want to create a sense of community here because in a
predominantly white institution and within those two, the two intersections alone, there's a lot of
ways that becomes a barrier to accessing the four year education here at this university. So it's
the least we can do as students to support each other through this horrific process, especially
since the majority of QIPOC are first generation and don't, you know, get this process at all so
it's better to go through it together.
That's what we do. QIPOC also has done resolutions for student government, for the protection
of trans people and trans day of remembrance. We also are part of the Equity Council, right
thing on campus and just various other student group collaborations with emphasis or this just
to insight a sense of intentional inclusivity, even in our Multicultural Student orgs.
Sabrin Gadow 55:01
I like how you say the word intentional inclusivity because (not just footnotes!) not just footnotes
because you're LGBT regardless.
LGBTQIA student services officially entered into MSS which was an intentional move to make
sure that we're including queer people who do have the identity where your a person of color too
so that is will not be treated like two separate identities.
How do you feel QIPOC is now navigating with the more boost of this new change?
Well, that LGBTQIA services included in MSS events being able to be under their wing not
either way, we'll be able to be like working closely with them despite that like do you feel that
this is a good move for QIPOC?
Ash Farah 57:54
I feel like this was ultimately a good move for QIPOC and was a move created and initiated and
pushed for by students last year.
We just did not like QIPOC only fitting really under on the LGBT student services or only under
multicultural services, which makes it really hard to find an advisor. Because, you know, like we
fit under both and I find that ultimately it'll be good for QIPOC students to be able to have
access to both things. Like and also have a space where they can be themselves among people
like them. So it's ultimately a good thing. Let's see.
Sabrin Gadow 58:26
How do you remain connected to your community or the causes you represent
Ash Farah 58:47
How do I remain connected to my community?
Well, I for now, due to a hate crime that was pretty recent and just trying to regain my own
health. I've been doing a lot of the direct direct activism that’s what I've been doing the last six
months.
Yeah, for the last couple months, um, but I just Yeah, but for the last couple months, but that's
Okay, because one way that I remain connected to the community that I want to represent and
that I am part of is through my student activism and student work.
So one way that I remain connected while trying to finish the course load of a pre med student is
through just like I had that horrific hate crimes. Sixth months ago.
Was it six months? I felt like no, it was July 4, actually.
About four months. Yeah, and the resulting concussion made school really hard to do so. I've
not been doing a lot of their direct activism that I've normally done but I've been active with
QIPOC on campus and creating groups and resources and reaching out to MSS groups and
stuff like that. So, students, the student group is one way that I have access to my community.
Another way that I like to remain connected to my community is through a book that I'm working
on. That I've been working on for about six months. And it's called, I don't know, I don't have a
title right now, but it will be basically be the Forgotten and 99 names, the other forgotten like the
other 99 names or something like that, where I would using the prompts of the you know, the
allah’s 99 names to showcase short stories and short interviews with Muslim individuals who
aren't typically included in the traditional narrative of what it means to be a Muslim. I mean, Like
for the obviously the most merciful, I will be talking about a friend miski, who in conversion
therapy had to had was literally taken back home for even more, you know, like conversion
therapy and stuff like that due to being a trans woman, which was seen as a form of
homosexuality and detestable by their parents. And she have not seen her since then. But, you
know, writing her story and what I know about her and how she did, and how she taught me
what, like, what mercy really like meant, that kind of thing on there's for the other 99 names, just
various, like queer Muslims or single moms or victim, Muslim women who've been assaulted,
sexually assaulted and all this by you know, just using the and interrogating these otherwise
forgotten stories and narratives into a, you know, short novel. And it's a process because it
involves interviewing a lot of people on a lot of topics that are very, you know, close to their
heart and not openly talked about in a lot of like Islamic circles, at least traditionally Islamic
circles that I've been in. And I think it'll be one way that I still remain connected in the
community, whatever presents also, another way that I'm remaining connected hopefully is by
the time I graduate, to start a another nonprofit.
Ash Farah 1:02:45
I co founded one early last year, which was for trans youth. Um, but another one which is we're
trying to come up with a name or debate debating whether we should say RUNTA which means
truth in Somali or come up with a more you know more pan-Islamic you know name for it but to
be an org dedicated for most queer Muslims and people from Muslim backgrounds who
happened to be queer and stuff like that so and just working on how that might look or what
types of events or things that might do so those are ways that I'm trying to stay connected.
Sabrin Gadow 1:03:29
Yeah, thank you and I as many other fans are, like can not wait for the book to drop
(laughter) thank you so much and thank you for your time. Thank you for sitting here with me
and talking about your path and your journey and it has been very informative and I want to
thank you for your time.
Sabrin 0:00
This is Sabrin doing an oral history project. Um Can you introduce yourself real quick?
Mustafa:
Yeah, this is Mustafa Jumale. Um yeah, uh 29. Black Immigrant organizer
Sabrin:
What identities or communities do you identify as being a part of?
Mustafa:
I am, I would say I am being apart of the Black immigrant communities. Um, also apart of the
queer community. And, you know, I think like I’m most connected to black organizers and
organizations, both like um multi generational African Americans and uh um black immigrant
folks I would say those are like my people really, you know? Yeah
Sabrin 0:48:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Yeah, um uh what do I wanna say about my childhood. Yeah, you know, um it was great, to be
honest. Of course, you know, growing up poor growing up as a, you know, as refugees fleeing
conflicts, having older parents who have to, like restart their life in a foreign country with new
customs and a language challenging but you know Alhamdulillah, like my parents pushed, oh,
you know, you know provided us with everything that we needed. Um I have 11 other siblings,
most of us live in the US. I have two siblings who live in Canada and one in Somalia.
Yeah, so my most of my life I've been in Minnesota, but when we first came to the US, we
settled in Kansas, Missouri, and then we live-moved to San Diego. Some of my siblings and my
cousin moved to Minnesota where they heard their jobs and then uh yeah. My brother got into
some trouble and was arrested and subsequently deported. And so my mom was doing a lot of
commuting back and forth between San Diego and Minneapolis and then ended up feeling like
Minnesota a better option for us as a family. So we moved to rural Minnesota, which was crazy
and in a city called Mankota and uh not very welcoming environment at all. And we were there
for like two years and then we moved to suburban Minneapolis, and Eden Prairie. And, you
know actually , some of my siblings still, one of them just moved out, the last sibling just moved
out of the complex that we had originally settled in the early 2000s. But yeah, so we moved to
Eden Prairie there was a larger Somali population, larger immigrant population. And went to like
middle school there and high school in Eden Prairie and transferred to Edina. Cause it was like
a shitshow for black migrant youth, particularly Somali youth. School was just being xenophobic
so I left and have yeah had a really better time in a Edina public schools and yeah.
Sabrin 3:37
Um, ok after you went to Edina public schools you went to the U of M, can you talk a little bit
about your experience at the U?
Mustafa 3:45
Yeah the U of M was great, I would say I had an overall a great experience. Of course, it’s a
historically white university, I mean, a predominantly white university so there the challenges of
being a student of color and immigrants in this space. You know, a lot of issues around policing,
particularly like the West Bank is like closest to the largest Somali population outside of
Mogadishu. Cedar Riverside, you know so the police just criminalize all Somalis basically on
the West Bank didn't know who was a student, some Somali kids, or some Black kids did
something, you know, does not mean you have to like criminalize all of the Somali students on
campus. So that was a particularly challenging thing. Otherwise, I would say adequate
experience. Was in the Somali Student Association, did a ton of research, met wonderful
friends. Some of them I’m still connected to. Uh, travelled to South Africa. Yeah, just like really
opened my eyes to many, many different things and opportunities.
Sabrin 4:53:
Yeah. So your apart of the Somali Student Association, at what capacity were you involved with
them?
Mustafa 4:56:
I was the outreach coordinator and I want to say at one time I was at, I was a secretary. Yeah.
And so yeah, I did it for one year, it was good. There was challenges, you know, because
they're just like different perspectives are just like different perspectives of the group, right? You
have people who are very liberal, people who were moderates, people who were conservatives.
So sometimes making decisions around like dancing, doing Dhaanto, cultural social things
where men and women were mixing were challenging, you know, but we got through it through
difficult dialogue, you know. Yeah the SomalI Student Association really,I think is a backbone for
Somali students not only in the capacity that they have to like just convene students, but to do
advocacy for them to, you know. And so I remember, like uniting as Somali students when the
Somali Student Association president, my sophomore year in college was like dragged out of
the Wilson Library on the West Bank of the U of M. An It was just that the University of
Minnesota police departments just at the time and I don't know these days probably the same
was just so Zena phobic and racist towards Somali students Yeah. I worked on a like oral
history project with immigration history Research Center at University of Minnesota. And that I
think was a significant project for me to like really understand other Somali identity, other Somali
youth identities and what there experiencing compared to what I was experiencing, transitioning,
again, part of being part of the 1.5 generation.
Sabrin 7:09
What do you mean by 1.5?
Mustafa 7:13
Uh 1.5 is like folks who were like born in Somalia, but raised in the US, like myself. So, you
know, like, I don't really have much of a memory of my time in Somalia. So, I would say that a
lot of like the 1.5 generation, we do a really good job of like, constantly negotiating, you know
the space between Somali culture and the US.
Sabrin 7:50
Yeah, so that's such an interesting way to say that. So you start a little bit about studying racism
in South Africa. How did that shape you as a person today?
Unknown Speaker 8:00
I think I my South African experience was really significant. You know, to like understand their
history about like, the trauma during apartheid that they had experience. It really helped kind of,
like inform my understanding and complexity around racism. You know, how racism can be so
complex and how racist ideology really like, is deeply embedded in these societies. And I will
say, you know, also like, just the way even that racism in South Africa is more complex, and like
different than other places. So that experience was really good for me like it helped me not only
understand like how the students in South Africa were being treated at what where historically
white universities and now are, you know, more and more becoming blacker and blacker. And
so at the time I was working on a research project with about the experiences of African
American and African students, predominantly white, and historically white University. So I
interviewed some South African students, you know about their experiences at these
universities and it's very similar experiences, you know, that you would imagine. White students
and fraternities doing ridiculously racist things, like the same things that you see on some of
these campuses in the US. I would say the way in which South African universities responded to
the violence that these white folks were perpetuating was much more progressive than how like
a lot of these US institutions and universities responded to. Really, I think like that tradition
comes out of their peace and reconciliation process. There was, God I forget his name now, but
I used to really be involved deeply in some of this research. But yeah, there was a minister of a
university that like some really fucked up, xenaphobic things happen. And he convened a whole
like reconciliation process, you know, obviously, the students were, I think, expelled and
punished but like, moving forward there needed to be a conversation. So going back to like
South Africa last year, and my own, a lot of the same issues, honestly, that I saw in all nine. So
10 years later, or eight years later, or nine years later. Xenophobia is still rampant over there
and the wealth still held by white folks. You know, there's definitely like the youth and listening to
what the youth and the like next set of leaders and how they will work around reparations issues
around land and money, you know. So now there's some really like progressive conversations
happening around that. But I don't think the current like South African Leadership would be,
would engaged in actually providing reparations for folks or taking land, taking and giving people
their land back, you know, from the apartheid.
Sabrin 11:49
No, definitely. The experience you had in South Africa really is a great one. How did that help
you when you came back to America and the next steps that you took towards your career?
Mustafa 11:56
Yeah, so when I came back, I just like continued to do that research. Do you know it helped me
realize, like, how interconnected the world is, you know, and how a lot of our challenges are
similar. And you know, at the time I had always had never left US, like aside from going to
Canada and so it was like really powerful experience for me. And so I just continue that
trajectory of like research did some more research on like, Somali history, Somali oral history
projects. And then yeah, and then I, I ended up like, you know, like being really connected to
some of those people. I'm in South Africa. So we're still in touch and you know, I still connect
with them.
Sabrin 13:01
That’s so nice. How would you define activism?
Mustafa:
I would say activism really is, is… Activism for me, it means, the way it manifests in my life is
that I pretty much have been working in public policy around human rights and humanitarian
issues. And the public policy work that I do now with Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI),
and the black immigrant collective work, and the consultation that I've been doing, I think, is the
form of activism because a lot of my work is just it’s mainly around issues that impact me and
my people and my community and I'm privileged in that sense to, you know, get to be paid for
the things I'm passionate about. For other people activism could be anything, you know,
anything that they're passionate about, like supporting in any way that makes us in their life.
Activism does not have to be like you showing up and risking your life in action. It could be you
donating, it could be you guys, whatever capacity you folks have. So, activism to me is
obviously like standing up for our fellow human beings really looking and making sure people
you know, have dignity in their lives and are not placed in a position where like, you know, I
guess the state violence will forever continue in this country but yeah.
Sabrin 14:55
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, no that was really great. You talk a lot about the work in activism you
do is policy work and that really contributes back to like the policy work you did back in, when
you used to work for Congress, Congressman Ellison and the work that you do for your current
organization called Khrye Solutions. Can you talk a bit about both those experiences?
Mustafa 15:16
Yeah, I had a really good time working at Congressman Ellison’s office. I mean, obviously, it
was really challenging. I was very young, and I was dealing with some, like, big community
issues, you know, like a lot of the work that I did was around foreign policy around human rights,
and so particularly around Somalia, Ethiopia, a lot of work on remittances. And remittances are
like money that's permitted back to people in their home countries, we call it in Somali hawala. Is
like and so basically people are sending, you know, maybe like monthly or weekly funds to their
families back home to support their basic living. And so I've done a lot of work on that. Me and
my colleagues were really leading the charge on remittances, on Somali remittances. And we
were able to pass a bill that provided like banks, a technical fix that they were asking about, that
they thought would help with the Somalia situation. Ultimately, it really did not help it. So the
deal that we worked on allows regulators to, to share information, you know, that state and the
federal regulators can now share audit that they do on remittances. And so did that.
And then did a lot of work on Ethiopian human rights. In 2015, you know, we had a bunch of like
folks who've been killed in Ethiopia, and there's a large Ethiopian population here in Minnesota
and so I wanted to build community to do advocacy around that issue. And really making sure
that that, you know, the US government holds these Ethiopian governments accountable, like
pressure to the Ethiopian government to not be killing its own constituents or its own citizens. I
worked with the Oakland Institute that's based in Oakland, California, on a resolution that was
passed last year in in Congress basically condemning the Ethiopian government for the killings,
the killings of the Oromo youth, Anuak youth, you name it. We did a lot of work also around O.
Chela, who's the Anuak leader in Ethiopia. And Chela was kidnapped by the Ethiopian
government, detained and tortured. And so we wrote a lot of letters to the administration, to the
White House, urging them to advocate for the release of Chela. Ultimately, he was released
when, you know, there was a big, like revolution like this, those uprisings that were happening
led to a huge shift in Ethiopian government, you know. Apparently so there's a new prime
minister, and upon when he joined, he released Chela and other political leaders, a lot of Oromo
leaders. So I remember reading that on Twitter, and this was after I had left Congressman
Ellison's office last year and just breaking down and crying, you know, just because I could not
believe Chela was released. I had never met Chela Amitabh at the Oakland Institute, helped me
figure out how to do advocacy around Ethiopia, in Congress, and they were working on his
campaign Campaign to get a Chela released. So that's how that's connected to that. But yeah, I
did that. And then so like really working for Congressman Ellison and other elected officials
really allowed me to like understand how state and federal policy works and how to move policy,
got to meet a lot of powerful leaders. And so that led me to like leaving Congressman Ellison’s
office and starting data Khyre solutions with my friend and then going I'm kind of like a retreat to
like a little time off to just relax. Because I was burnout. We were doing a lot of work around a lot
of work around voter engagement, a lot of work around the humanitarian lobbying. And so
ultimately, it didn't really work out for my friend. She was not interested in this type of work. And
I ended up continuing on my own. And then you know, Trump was elected. And as a result of
that, a bunch of us got together and established the black immigrant collective. Which is a
collective that is based in Minnesota that does community based advocacy work on black
immigration issues. It's mainly led by black immigrant women. So I've been doing that for almost
three years. And then through that I got connected to and more involved in immigration work.
There's also like several, like a lot of our work has been around Liberian DED (Deferred Enforced
Departure) because there's several Nigerians who are part of the collective. And so collective,
the collective started really after the Muslim ban was put in place like a bunch of us kept getting
calls and what like going on? You know, people who were worried that they were not going to
be reunited with their families and things like that because of this ban. Then from there, we
ended up working on immigration policies working on something called Liberian DED, Deferred
Enforced Departure. I call it Deferred Enforced Deportation. Yeah, so BAJI, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, reached out to them on us kind of thinking through like how we want to go
about doing this advocacy work. And so they flew out to educate us on some training. We got to
know them better, what they do. And then they invited us to DC to advocate for Haitian
temporary protected status. And temporary protected status is a status that folks are given when
the country that they're from experiences a man made crisis like a civil conflict or environmental
crisis, you know, like the hurricane, earthquake, things like that.
And so the administration so --Trump administration-- is terminating TPS for terminated TPS for
Haiti. So what that meant is that you know, close like 56 or 58,000 Hatiain TPS holders were
gonna become undocumented and be required to leave the country. And that's not even
including their children who would leave with them problaby, who are US born children. And so,
yeah, and so from there, we went to other convenings. And so they were there was a lot of, you
know, as the cookie at the time around Liberian DED, like a small group of people, Liberians, I
think we're working on it and other advocacy organizations. But we really came in there and just
like really uplifted the Liberian DED situation. And so Liberian DED is similar to TPS except that
the President of the United States has to extend it every year, so it's a discussion of the
president to extend, terminate or to terminate. So he decided to in 2018, he decided to
terminate it and provide people with like a year to get out of the country.
**techincal difficulties from 24:34 to 25:20 **
Sabrin:
Ok, we were talking about the president deciding to terminate DED in 2019 or 2018.
Mustafa 25:29
Yeah, so what he did was that, you know, he put the Liberians on noticed who were on DED.
Which, for us, we think it's about 4000 or 5000 Liberains who have that status. There are a lot
more eligible for that status. However, because of the, because of the fees associated with it, it's
expensive. You're talking about $400 $500 every year a pop applying for this. And so and we're
talking about people who are poor working class immigrants, and so some families have to
make the tough decision of deciding who in their family, usually the breadwinner is going to get
renewed. And so, and for others, they become undocumented. So, thankfully, you know, like, for
the past several years, you know, DED has been continued to be renewed every year.
And so, because of our advocacy, we actually were able to get DED comprehensive
immigration. Wait not the comprehensive immigration bill that was discussed a couple of years
ago in Congress. Okay, let me pause. I’m confusing myself. Okay, so what I'm trying to say is
that Congress earlier this year passed a bill called the Dream and Promise Act. It provides a
pathway to permanent status for DACA dreamers, TPS holders and DED holders. And so DED
is really only like 4000-5000. We got it to the point where they were included in that major piece
of legislation. We uplifted it as like a bigger issue with an immigration policy. And then all of a
sudden you have people like Nancy Pelosi and others speaking about the DED anytime they
talked about TPS. And that's how they talked about DED, which is great. And so as a result of
many, many years, I've only been involved in this for like the past three and a half years,
Liberian DED work. But many Liberian aunties, predominantly - and women, Liberian womenhave been doing this work for many years, for the past 20 years. And so in the past three years,
we're able to make a lot of strides. I think because the environments that we were put into
require us to act quickly and aggressively to protect our people. And so as a result of that
Congress last week passed a defense bill, defense bill passed in the House and then passed in
the Senate. And so the in that bill- first of all that bill is toxic. That bill is basically like, providing
funding to people, you know, military support for foreign governments, expanding our military
industrial complex here. But within this bill, there's language that Senator Jack Reed put in that
provides permanent status for Liberian DED holders. So that bill was passed in the House last
week, it's kind of tomorrow, the Senate is gonna vote on it. They expect the President to sign it
sometime this week. And just like that, you know, Liberians who have been undocumented for
20 years, in a couple of weeks can apply for a green card.
Sabrin:
That’s amazing.
Mustafa:
I know, this is such a big deal, you know, and so, I mean, this is probably one of the only
progressive immigration themes that have passed in this administration you know, and so I,
yeah. You know, for me, I've been doing this a while, and so I have the technical experience, so
do other people in the collective. So , yeah, it's just been simply amazing to see what we’ve
been able to do
Sabrin 30:09
Yeah, it's so nice to see your hard work and other people's hard work actually amount to
something, especially in this administration. And not only but an administration whose past
things like the Muslim ban, so that this got past is absolutely amazing. I am so happy for
everyone who affected. Okay, so you talk a lot about how you got into activism through policy
work and stuff and like activism through your schools, Somali Student Association and the
programs and jobs you've worked afterward. Do you think that you actively chose to become an
activist or do you think that fell into your lap and not fall into your lap but, like fell into your path
as you got older? And if so why?
Mustafa 30:42
So I've always been interested in like, human rights I've always been interested in protecting
and advocating for vulnerable communities and people. I think what really saved my
understanding around the complexities and the challenges we face as people of color in this
world when I went to college, and so I would say that, that really pushed me into working on
issues that are impacted by, you know, working on issues that people are being impacted by.
And from there, you know, I was gonna go to graduate school and become a professor. That
was a track. That was the idea. And then I decided not to out of circumstances. And I didn't get
funding to go to graduate school, you know, I was admitted to Cambridge University in the UK. I
was going to study African, get a MA (masters) in African Studies and didn't get funding so I
decided to work for the Minnesota DFL. I was TAing (teacher’s assistant) for a class at the U,
and one of my students encouraged me to apply for it. So I organized around East African
issues. And then from there that led me to working in politics and working in policy. I mean, it
was not an easy experience. I experienced a lot of trauma in this process. You know, I fell down
and burnt out myself one too many times, but continue to like, get up and try again, keep going.
The racism and xenophobia inside the Minnesota DFL and Minnesota politics in general. It’s
Crazy. The work that needs to get done, you know, around it to really make sure that we are
seen as equal partners in the Democratic party here. And so I'm no longer really organizing
around Democratic electoral work. I mainly now just focus on issue based teamwork, you know,
like immigration, other issues, the policies of those things so, and, you know, doing some
advocacy and activism around that. I'm not, I don’t foresee myself, like ever getting involved in
the Minnesota DFL. Again, just because I don't have I mean, I don't have time for that. I think
people are trying to change here. Hopefully, it becomes a more inclusive organization. But yeah,
I mean, like working at the state legislature and organizing what them, these people really don't
understand. Like these people, I would say are really taking advantage of people of color, but
are not coming through for us when it comes to issues that matter to us.
Sabrin:
That’s definitely true, especially with the DFL it always feels like they’re there for us during like,
when it's time to vote, and when we have to like elect our officials, but after that they kind of
seem to just fade out and not be some concerned are like our policies or issues that affect us. It
just feels like we're being used, which really sucks. And it caused a lot of burnout and frustration
because it feels like not being supported by the community or political group that’s supposed to
support you. And it’s really frustrating. Moving onMustafa 34:18
Yeah,
Sabrin 34:19
Oh, sorry keep going.
Mustafa 34:21
Yeah, no you're right it’s frustrating. That was my DFL experience.
Sabrin:
Moving on to our next part. Do you still, are you still part of the faith?
Mustafa 34:37
Yeah, I consider myself Muslim. You know, I grew up in a Sufi household and so I really like the
Sufi tradition. I was lucky enough to go to Somalia with my father in the last couple of months of
his life. And from that experience, I really got embed myself in the tradition of the Sufis in
central Somalia in particular, and it just really like opened my mind a lot of their traditions and
their practices. And then you know, I was going through a crisis you know, like my dad was
dying so I started reading the Quran
Sabrin:
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Mustafa 35:20
No, thank you. Yeah, my friend. And so my I started like reading the Quran, but the English
version of it. And I remember like my uncle and my other relatives being so fascinated and so
shady about me reading the Quran in English. They were just like really surprised, they were
like ‘Wow. How can you do this?’
Sabrin 35:52
It's almost as if Old Arabic is such an easy language to pick up like, I know people who have like
master the Quran, but there's no one single thing about it because they don't understand the
language in it. So the fact that you can even read it in English is such a good way to learn more
about it but still have a connection where it's like I know it's going on in other words, I know how
it relates to me and my life.
Mustafa 36:13
Yes, I consider myself, I, you know, like, really value the experiences like that I had with the Sufi
tradition. And a lot of it was like meditative to be honest I got involved in meditation center for a
while and a lot of it reminded me of that, you know, chanting, sitting in silence, meditating to
this very rural, very rural place called Burroraqadi, I think it’s called that. I’m probably
mispronouncing it but, like I think it translates to like a place where a lot of people died. But I
went to a Sufi university, that one of my relatives was teaching. And I was like, it was so
beautiful, you know? It was so tranquil, like, so peaceful. And the women had their own mosque.
First time I ever saw that. And because most times, you know, you see the mosques like they
don't provide a lot of space for women.
Sabrin 37:39
Oh, it's always like they’ll have the men’s side decked out 10/10 beautiful, clean head to toe.
And the women’s side will be like an empty broom closet Two rugs in there and they say, why
are you upset? You’re lucky you are even being allowed into here and you're like, ‘Oh, my bad.
How dare I expect right oopsie never again. But, no, it's really nice they have their own
mosque, that’s something they don't really see. Yeah, so how does being Muslim cosign with
your activism?
Mustafa 38:06
Oh, I think it's part of my faith calls me to it. Yeah. For sure. Like to like, stand up for people's
dignity and humanity and rights and being struggle together across communities and in an
intersectional way. Yeah, I really do believe that my faith is really what caused for us to be
involved in our communities.
Sabrin:
Islam is a religion of peace.
Mustafa:
Oh yeah, just tell that to the administration.
Sabrin 38:51
Hoepfully they’ll understand soon enough. What is your experience as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa 38:57
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Sabrin 39:02
Oh, I’m sorry. What is your experince as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa:
Oh, I would say, good. You know, funnyliy enough like a lot of the people even leading the
liberation work are queer black folks in black communities tend to be queer. So like, for
example, if you look at the National Immigration advocacy world, particularly the folks that do
advocacy around black immigration issues, most the majority of the folks network are queer
black migrants are leading that work. And so I would say, like, the ways that it intersects,
honestly, is that it allows us to, like view some of these issues in a more complex way, you
know. So, for example, like we, I was recently writing a letter on Somali temporary protective
status for a member of Congress. Basically they're sending that letter to the administration to
advocate for Somali TPS status to be reinstated. And in that letter, I wrote like, if Somali TPS
holders, are sent back to Somalia, you know, like women and people from marginalized
communities, like queer Somalis, will be persecuted and girls. You know, and, so I think it just,
it layers, like the kind of work that we do. I would say it's also challenging because, you know,
some people are stuck in their ways around queerness. like as if so, like, as if, like, I don't know,
I actually don't know how to explain this. Like, I think it's just homophobia, you know. I'm like
trying to figure out a nice way to say this but it’s homophobia.
Sabrin 41:01
Some of the most complex feelings and emotions can really boil down to homophobia. And
that's really sad. But it really is a-
Mustafa 41:07
It’s homophobia because yeah.
Sabrin:
It really is.
Mustafa:
YeahSabrin:
Oh, I’m sorry did you have something else to say? Ok, so you talk a lot about about the reasons
why you do this and your experiences and like the work you've done. How does your family
think of your work? What does your family think of your work?
Mustafa 41:37
Yes, just to like finish that thought on the queer Somalis. I'm used to queer activism.
Sabrin:
Oh, Im sorry
Mustafa:
Yeah, no, the only thing I was gonna add is that like the word so I was telling you how like the
majority of the people, the black migrant organizing nationally, and leading the policy work on
queer black migrants, the people that we work with directly impacted based on my experience
has really welcomed us and accepted us you know as who we are, and are grateful for the work
that we do. You know, and I've really become like kind of like family to us. I think there are some
people who may be intimidated by you know, queer folks and don't want to work with us. And
that's that, we can’t do anything about that.
Sabrin:
Yeah I’ve definitely realized growing older and like, like moving more into my adulthood is, when
you get people by themselves, their gonna be really cool and their understanding but group
dynamic or group think belief, because the majority will only sway the few and that real sucks.
Going off that, what does your family Think of your work?
Mustafa:
My family is very supportive of my work. I think they're very supportive of my work and I've
always been honestly like. You know, they've heard my broken English, I mean broken Somali,
on BBC Somalia talking about remittances and TPS for Somalia. Other issues so they're proud
that I'm able to like, work on issues that our communities. Yeah.
Sabrin 43:23
That’s so nice. Ok, Any final thoughts or statements you'd like to add?
Mustafa 43:39
But what I would say is like, I'm really inspired by the Somali queers youths that are up and
coming right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing that the work that they lead in the future.
Like over the weekend, I was just observing stuff on Twitter, that like a bunch of Somali queer
youth were just engaging in like, just dialogue around, like queerness and sexuality, you know.
Like this, this young Somali queer woman or femme? I want to say probably probably like 19 or
20 or 20. Posted a pic of her and her girlfriend, you know, some of the Somali Twitter just kind
of went south.
Sabrin:
Yeah. Some people, are just jobless and have so much time to comment.
Mustafa:
Yeah, but its so inspiring to see how the Somali queer youth are responding. How they are
likeI'm here and not afraid. It really brings a lot of warmth to my heart.
Sabrin:
That’s such a beautiful way to end things off. People as always say the youth are our future, and
it's so nice seeing the Somali youth stand for themselves and who they are and undeniably live
their best life.
Mustafa:
I know right? And for a lot of them, I feel like Canada is where it’s at for Somali queers right
now.
Sabrin:
The way Toronto is popping for no reason.
Mustafa:
I know! You see that?
Unknown Speaker 45:23
Thank you so much time with me. I really do appreciate it.
Show less
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All righ... Show more
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All right. So we're gonna start with your background. So where were you born and raised?
Amal Issa 0:25
I was born in Minneapolis, downtown Minneapolis, and I was raised here so I lived here all my
life.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:32
Okay. And how many siblings do you have?
Amal Issa 0:35
I have eight siblings, two brothers and sisters.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:40
Nice. So growing up in Minneapolis, did you feel like you were surrounded by your community?
Or did you ever feel like discriminated against?
Amal Issa 0:52
I, I felt I was surrounded by my community, because I think outside Somalia, Minnesota has the
largest population of Somalis? So I was constantly surrounded by Somalis. I didn't feel left out,
in a sense.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:06
Nice. So, in terms of your religious upbringing, how was that like? :ike, did you guys go to the
mosque often? Did you celebrate the holidays?
Amal Issa 1:16
Yeah. I'm Muslim. So I spent like, a lot of time in mosques and celebrating. We only have like,
two holidays. So yeah, we'd celebrate those. But we wouldn't really- So I went to like a small
school so we would get it off to celebrate, but like when I got into university, it's not considered a
national holiday. So I'd have to like skip class.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:43
Oh, okay. So can you give more detail about what you remember growing up and celebrating
the certain traditions and stuff?
Amal Issa 1:53
Yeah. Um, when we're celebrating, this is like a one specific restaurant we always go to. And
like, we've been going there for, however many years it's like, tradition now, for us to go there.
But it feels weird when we don't go, because over the summer we were out of the country. So it
was only my dad and my sister left here. And the rest of us didn't go, so it felt kind of weird
adjusting to life outside of what I grew up knowing.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:25
So when- You said, You guys go in the summer. So is that for Ramadan? Or what is that for,
when you go to the restaurant? Or is that just like a family thing?
Amal Issa 2:35
It's for Eid. So our two holidays. Yeah. But yeah, the last one was in the summer, but we're out
of the country. So we didn't end up going.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:44
Okay, so how was it like going- or going in? I mean, going to Somalia?
Amal Issa 2:48
Um, it was weird, because it's my first time out of the country ever. So it took a lot of adjusting.
Like, when I'm in Minnesota, it's like, "oh, you're too Somali". But when we're there everyone
knew us as the American kids. So it was kind of like, it put us off a little, because everyone, like,
even when we didn't speak, everyone automatically knew us. I think we're like the talk of the
neighborhood. But it was weird kind of adjusting to the different way of life. And it could be that
hard to adjust to it. I liked it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23
So how long were you there?
Amal Issa 3:25
Two months.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:26
Two months? Okay, and did you stay with family or did you go to like, a hotel or something?
Amal Issa 3:32
No, my mom was renting a house there. So, we stayed there for two months, but we had family
over every single day. So it felt it felt nice, because everyone's so busy when we're here, but
there's it's like a new person's coming to visit us every day. It was nice.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:47
Oh, it's nice. And how was Eid there compared to here? Like how you celebrate it? What would
you say?
Amal Issa 3:55
I missed Eid here. It was weird over- It was nice. But I was just so used to having- Celebrating
Eid here. So it felt kind of weird, but we went to the ocean, which is pretty nice. It was very
pretty. But we spent it around family, so I liked that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:14
How are you involved in the Muslim community and how were you like, I guess, as a child and
then to now like, how were you involved in community? Muslim or like, Somali too?
Amal Issa 4:26
Okay. Um, as a child, I spent most of my time surrounded by Somalis, as I said earlier, but I
went to like a small, charter school, that was mostly Somali. But now going to University of
Minnesota, I kind of want to give back, so I volunteer at the Brian Coyle Center in South
Minneapolis and I just helped tutor kids there. It's a nice experience and I get to help out in my
own way.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:56
Yeah. And at Brian coil- So can you give more detail on that program like, what kind of kids are
there or is it connected with other schools?
Amal Issa 5:04
Yeah. Okay, so the Brian Coyle Center is like a community center for the Cedar Riverside area
in South Minneapolis. It's close by here. But it's mainly Somali- A Somali community, people that
live there. So a lot of Somalis come in, but I work. I volunteer in the Teen Tech Center, and it's
funded by Best Buy. But what I do is, I tutor youth between around like, 5th to 9th- 10th grade,
and I just helped them with their homework. It's mainly after school, so if they ever need help,
the kids that live inside the area, they come and they get that they need.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:47
And how long have you been volunteering there?
Amal Issa 5:50
About a year and a half now. I started there, because of the scholarship I got, but ended up
really liking it. So I went back.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:57
Oh, nice. So you're talking about the University a lot. So what made you choose the University
of Minnesota?
Amal Issa 6:06
Honestly, my first choice was Augsburg.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:09
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 6:09
Yeah, I was like, set on coming here. But along the way, I had like some financial issues. I
applied, I got accepted and everything, but there's like some financial issues. So I ended up just
like, on a whim, choosing the University of Minnesota. I didn't really want to go there, but I love
it. It's so much more different than I thought it would be.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:29
So what did you think it would be like? Or like why didn't you want to at first?
Amal Issa 6:34
Well, my sister goes there, so I thought it would be weird. But, um, I grew up like in South
Minneapolis, really close to the University of Minnesota. So I spent a lot of my time there. And I
felt like I knew what was going on there. And it seemed like really small to me, but it's gigantic.
It's amazing. It's beautiful. But, um, what was the question?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:59
Oh, I guess I asked you- Sorry, I asked you what made you go against it before? Yeah, what
you thought about it before and I guess what you think about it now?
Amal Issa 7:08
Yeah, I thought it'd be like a small school, because I went to St. Paul college and St. Paul
College was a really small and diverse- When I came here it's, you know, a predominantly white
school, but I love it. It's big. There a lot of opportunities and a lot of different things I could do to
feel kind of like at home.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:31
Okay. And, um, do you know your major yet?
Amal Issa 7:35
Yeah. I'm majoring in mathematics. Hopefully to minor in Arabic.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:40
Okay, cool. So they have- They offer Arabic classes then there?
Amal Issa 7:45
Yeah, I'm taking one the semester. I wanted to minor in Spanish, but I just gonna put that on
hold, because it's a little too hard for right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:53
Yeah. So how is the Arabic class? Is it like what you thought it would be? Or- Or did you have
expectations of it?
Amal Issa 8:01
Yeah, so growing up Muslim. Arabic played a huge plays a huge role in my life. So I thought like
I knew enough, and I did not enough, to like get me by, because in like an Arab country or
anything, but I really don't know anything about the basics, but it's- My teacher is great. It's
making me fall in love with the language and that's why I want to continue, because- Just the
way he teaches it makes me really like it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:31
It's great. So I'm sorry, I guess I'm jumping back to like Islam. But um, how do you think Islam
affects your everyday life? Like do you pray or is there anything that you do?
Amal Issa 8:45
Um, well, it affects the way I dress because I wear the hijab every day. But yeah, I pray every
day. It doesn't really affect my life, because I just have to take a couple of minutes out of my day
to go and do my prayers, but I think it helps me feel like more at ease, knowing that like thingsthings will turn out okay.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:09
And when did you start wearing your hijab?
Amal Issa 9:12
Um, I'm not sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:15
Oh, you're not sure?
Amal Issa 9:15
It's been a while. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:16
Oh, okay. Yeah. So moving on to, I guess your current life in terms of like Sisterhood Boutique
or like your after high school life, I guess. What made you connect with Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 9:36
It's a weird story, because my sister, um, interned there summer of last- 2018. Yeah, summer
2018, my sister interned there and I was unemployed then. I was just at home, most of the time.
And my sister was going to go on a camping trip to the Boundary Waters. So she's like, "oh,
since you're at home all the time, uh, you should come along". So I was like "Okay, why not?"
We ended up- And it was with Sisterhood Boutique, so I invited a friend and we ended up going
camping with them for a week. It was brutal, but I guess we kind of bonded, while we were
there, because the store manager,at the time, went with us and she offered us jobs afterwards.
We ended up interning there and I interned there for about eight, nine months, and then my
internship ended, the beginning of the summer, right before we left for Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31
Oh, okay. And can you explain what you did at Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 10:37
Yeah, so for the most part, we'd work on the store floo, just arranging the front and doing
inventory in the back, helping customers. But we also attended a couple different events. We
helped with their annual fashion show. And yeah, that's mainly what we did. But since I stopped
working, I just go back a couple times a week to help out.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:05
Yeah, that's sweet. So what other events do you remember? Other than the fashion show?
Amal Issa 11:12
I can't remember their names. But, um, I was invited to represent, like, Pillsburg United
community. So Sisterhood is under the Pillsbury United Community. So I was invited to present
them at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. I think it was in like April, I think. Yeah. So I was
invited to represent them. And it was like an equity summit, at the Radisson Blu, but it was a
really cool experience. Oh, what else did we do?I can't remember most their names. But we
went to a lot of events.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:49
That's okay. Is there anything you'd like to say to people in your community or like any
messages that you would like to put out?
Amal Issa 12:00
I guess there's like, a lot of problems with the youth right now. So just like a message, would be
like, we'll get through it. I mean, our parents survived Civil War, so we can survive anything. So
we'll get through it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:15
And when did your parents come here? Like, did any of your older siblings come with them? Or
born in Somalia?
Amal Issa 12:22
No. So all of my siblings and I were born in Minneapolis, but I think my mom was like, 19 when
the Civil War broke out, and she met my father in Canada, soChyanne Phravoraxay 12:32
Oh really?
Amal Issa 12:33
Yeah. They- So they fled, during the Civil War and my mom- She went through a lot of different
countries, but I know she ended up in Canada and a dad somehow ended up in Canada. That's
where they met and then they decided to relocate to Minnesota and we've been here ever since.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:51
Okay, and are any of your extended family to like your aunts or maybe grandma, grandpa?
Amal Issa 12:59
Yeah. I've never met my grandparents. But one, my dad's mother is in Somalia right now. And
the rest passed away already. So I never met them. But I have a couple aunts and uncles
scattered around the United States and Canada. But I'd say most of my, like, close family's back
home in Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:25
What do you hope to do with your degree in mathematics?
Amal Issa 13:28
Uh, I'd love to be a teacher. So I'm, I'm studying mathematics, but I'm also in the direct track to
teaching program at University of Minnesota. And in order to get into the licensure program, I
have to major in the subject area I want to teach. So, yeah. That's what I'm doing right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:47
Okay. And do you have an idea about what age you're thinking of teaching?
Amal Issa 13:53
I'm stuck between to middle school and high school. I still don't know yet. But one of those
hopefully.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:58
Chronologically, where do you stand in your siblings? Like are you the middle child or
youngest?
Amal Issa 14:06
I'd say somewhere in the middle. I have three sisters older than me and then five siblings
younger than me, including my two brothers. So not exactly the middle, but around that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:23
Okay. About that restaurant that you're talking about, so when do you remember your first time
going there? Or have you- your family been doing that like before you were even born, because
I know you're like, kind of in the middle-ish.
Amal Issa 14:37
It start started, I think maybe like 10-12 years ago, but I'm not sure exactly when. I think it was
too young to remember. But yeah, it was a while ago, and we started going to like another one
also, but now it's been about 8 years so. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:59
So you mentioned going to the charter school, as a child. So what other ethnicities did you, likeI guess were you learning with or like other students?
Amal Issa 15:11
Okay, so the majority were Somali, but there's also like different, um, Arab cultures like
Egyptians and Syrians but also like Pakistanis, Afghanis. But mainly Somali.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:30
And was- Oh, sorry. What were you gonna say? Oh. Was the- was Islam ever like tied into it?
Amal Issa 15:38
Um, not really. They like, give us like a certain amount of time, if we needed to go pray, but
other than that it wasn't really tied into it. But for holidays we would get it off. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57
And for the university- Because you did say that there was a change in like, being surrounded
by your community and then going to university, did you ever feel like uncomfortable or was it
just new?
Amal Issa 16:09
Okay, so when I- 2016, when I was starting my junior year of high school, I started doing PSCO
at St. Paul College first, and St. Paul college was really diverse. And I had a couple of my
friends who were doing PSCO with me, so I was very comfortable there. It was a bit of a
change, but I was still comfortable. But I graduated from high school and St. Paul college, um,
May 2018. And then I started at the University of Minnesota, September 2018. And it was a big
change 'cause I didn't really know anyone there. And it was- It's a predominantly white school,
so I was mainly surrounded by white people and it felt different because I was so used to be
surrounded by Somalis and my friends and it was a bit uncomfortable, but I got used to it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:00
Just judging from what I've heard about, like you being involved in like the Sisterhood Boutique
and you went to the events, are you involved in any other activist stuff?
Amal Issa 17:11
Any other extracurriculars?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:13
Yeah, that too. Yeah.
Amal Issa 17:15
Um, well, for my teaching program, I have to, like, observe, like a high school teacher or a
middle school teacher teaching. So I'm, I'm usually a South High- South High School in South
Minneapolis on Fridays and Thursday mornings, just observing a math teacher. But other than
that, I work through the University of Minnesota with America Reads, and I'm literacy mentor,
around Franklin at- it's called Projects for Pride and Living, but yeah, I tutor there. Like two days
of the week.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:53
So how does that compare to Brian Coyle? Because I know you tutored up at both but they're
different, like organizations.
Amal Issa 18:01
So with- PPL is Projects for Pride in Living, so I'll just call it that. PPL, I worked with just one
student each time I'm there. So we like get into a habit of doing things a certain way. But when
i'm at Brian Coyle, I work with a bunch of different students and sometimes like there's really no
one to tutor. So I'm just like hanging out. So it's a little different, in that way, but it's very
structured at PPL and Brian Coyle was kind of like, "whoever comes comes". So it's kind of
different in that way but I like both of them equally.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:39
And what do you think of your- I guess, I forgot the term. Was it- does the observation I guess or
is that- that's not an internship, right? You're just observing the teacher?
Amal Issa 18:49
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:50
Okay.
Amal Issa 18:50
It's just, I, service learning. That's what it is.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:53
Oh. Okay. Service Learning.How is that? Like can you give me more details on it?
Amal Issa 18:57
Well, yeah. Um, so when I first started, I was in a chemistry classroom, and I'm a math major. I
took chemistry like four years ago. So I don't really know anything. I forgot everything. So it was
kind of weird. But the teacher was a great teacher, I loved his way of teaching. And then he
somehow got me into a math classroom to observe that, and she's also- the teacher I'm working
with, she's also a great teacher, it's just a bit calmer. It's interesting to look at stuff from like, a
teacher's perspective, the teacher's perspective now, because I've been so used to being a
student. Yeah, that's kind of interesting and like a new experience.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39
So, um, this is just from my knowledge of like, education majors, but when do you start getting
involved in like, becoming like a teacher's assistant and like, teaching with them? Do you know?
Amal Issa 19:54
Um, I think that'll be when I'm in the licensure program. So after I can make bachelor's, is what I
would think. It's my first year in the teaching program, so I'm not really sure. Each school's
different, butChyanne Phravoraxay 20:07
Oh, okay. And other than becoming a teacher do you think you're going topursue more
education or any other plans, alongside being a teacher?
Amal Issa 20:18
I don't want to stay in school very long. But um, originally I wanted to go into the medical field,
but the years of schooling just put me off, and I love teaching, so I was like "Uh, I could do this
instead!". But I'd love to be like an EMT or paramedic one day.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:36
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 20:36
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:37
Okay.
Amal Issa 20:38
We'll see how that goes. I was gonna say like, I'm thinking of applying for- So St. Paul and
Minneapolis, they have like an EMS Academy thing that they do every year, so I was thinking
maybe I should apply for that next year.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:55
That is so interesting, because of- because of your history, as like becoming an teacher and
then the EMT, I wouldn't imagine, but that's interesting. When you start teaching, do you plan on
staying like within Minneapolis?
Amal Issa 21:09
That's a hard question. I'd love to travel outside, but at the same time Minneapolis is my home.
I'd like to sort of give back in a way. So I think I'd teach here first, for at least a couple of years.
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 21:25
Nice. You said there's problems with the youth like, do you? Can you pinpoint them? Or likeAmal Issa 21:34
There's a lot of problems with opioids right now. And I went to an event at Brian Coyle, a couple
weeks ago, and they were just opening up the floor to bring like questions that the youth have
forward about it. And they were just also educating the youth and their parents about the
different types of drugs and how they affect you. And if you see someone having an overdose,
what you could do. And they were like handing out in narcan too. So I thought that was very
interesting and it's just like- It's been something that's been like kept quiet for so long. It feels- It
feels nice to see it being brought up into the open and hear people talking about it and like trying
to take steps forward to see how they could help people who are suffering from like with drug
abuse.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:33
Um, I think- Because we did watch a video. It was like by Somali TV, in class, and it was like this
woman talking about her addiction, so i think, i don't know if that was like from them?
Amal Issa 22:45
Was she sitting?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:46
She was sitting and there's like two guys or like, I don't know.
Amal Issa 22:51
Um, they held that like a week or- Two or three weeks after the one I went to. So I didn't really
see that one.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:58
Oh, but they were not connected like by an organization or?
Amal Issa 23:01
I think they were. There's this group called, like the- Changing the Narrative, and they're the
ones that held the first one and I think they might have helped organize that one too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:12
Okay and why do you think this is happening within the- within the community?
Amal Issa 23:18
I really do not know. I don't know. It's- it's kind of like, a new topic to me too, because it's not
something like, I've heard of. But where I grew up- Where we live right now, it's not really the
safest and we like see things that people shouldn't be seeing. So it's like, not that new to me.
But it's new to me, in the sense that I haven't heard of it happening in the Somali community as
much.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:49
Oh, okay. Thank you so much for coming them all. Are there any last things you'd like to say?
Amal Issa 23:57
Not really.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57
No? Okay. Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Autumn Graleske 0:01
Okay, um, welcome. This is an oral history interview for the Muslims in Minnesota project.
Today is Thursday, December 3, and we are talking with Zamzam Mohamed. Welcome
Zamzam. December 5. It is December 5, not December 3. My bad anyways, welcome. If you
could just int... Show more
Autumn Graleske 0:01
Okay, um, welcome. This is an oral history interview for the Muslims in Minnesota project.
Today is Thursday, December 3, and we are talking with Zamzam Mohamed. Welcome
Zamzam. December 5. It is December 5, not December 3. My bad anyways, welcome. If you
could just introduce yourself, your name, age, major.
Zamzam Mohamed 0:30
Yeah, my name is Zamzam Mohamed. I'm 18 years old. I'm from Blaine. I go to Augsburg and
my major is Business Economics.
Autumn Graleske 0:41
Very, very classy.
If you could just say, just tell us your background where you're from, like your childhood.
Zamzam Mohamed 0:50
I come from a really big family. I have eight siblings. I was born in Kenya. So I'm the fourth
oldest. It was pretty nice. We lived there till 2005 and we moved here, September of 2005. And
we lived in Minnesota ever since. And then yeah.
Autumn Graleske 1:10
That's cool, where in Kenya did you live?
Zamzam Mohamed 1:13
I lived in the capital, Nairobi.
Autumn Graleske 1:18
Why did you move here?
Zamzam Mohamed 1:20
Um, so in Kenya, my dad was a teacher and we owned a little radio station. And then my dad
sold the radio station. So he was just a teacher. And he got a job here and my mom was just
finishing her schooling for becoming a teacher in Kenya. And then once she finished she got a
job here as well. So they both moved over here.
Autumn Graleske 1:44
That's cool, that's cool. Um so you went to Blaine high school? I mean that's where I know you
from.
Zamzam Mohamed 1:50
Yeah, yeah.
Autumn Graleske 1:50
Did you like always live in Blaine or
Zamzam Mohamed 1:53
no, I lived in Minneapolis at first. Then we moved to Apple Valley. And then to Rosemount and
then to Blaine.
Autumn Graleske 2:03
So you've been all over?
Zamzam Mohamed 2:04
Yeah, we have. So Rosemont was just way too far from everything. We went to a mosque in
Minneapolis that we drove to every Saturday and Sunday. It's dugsi, which is basically like
church except the muslim version. And it was just too far to drive every single day from
Rosemont. So we moved to Blaine, thinking it would be better and it was but Blaine is just
further from everything else we were used to. But now we got used to it.
Autumn Graleske 2:35
You made like a home
Zamzam Mohamed 2:37
Yeah, I like Blaine much better than Rosemount. Rosemount was very. It was just very, like,
people that weren't very nice. That's it.
Autumn Graleske 2:48
Yeah? Really?
Zamzam Mohamed 2:49
Yeah. They're like just stuck up.
Autumn Graleske 2:53
Is Rosemount like southern?
Zamzam Mohamed 2:55
Yeah, it's like Apple Valley, Eagan area.
Autumn Graleske 2:58
I feel like that's the stereotype.
Zamzam Mohamed 3:02
Yeah, it was very bad. I think I think I used to be like that one time, oh dear. Yeah, I think I said
things like... yeah. Because there everyone was just so. And here I saw more of what reality is
really like.
Autumn Graleske 3:35
Sometimes it's hard to like articulate. I get that. Did you like Blaine better?
Zamzam Mohamed 3:41
Yeah. Definitely.
Autumn Graleske 3:47
Do you remember, you moved to the US when you were five. Do you like remember anything
from Kenya?
Zamzam Mohamed 3:54
Yeah, I remember. I only remember like big things. Not really anything specifically. And I
remember just the house, we used to live in my grandma's house. It used to be our house, and
then my grandma's house was right next door. So my parents were when my dad was at work and
my mom was at school, we would all go over to my grandma's house and stay there and we just
walk there because they're literally next door and then go back home with their parents. So that
was nice. And now it's sad cuz my grandma lives in Kenya still, but she just got approved for her
visa. So she's coming now. She didn't get to come because of the... I almost swore. The travel
ban.
Autumn Graleske 4:35
Yeah
Zamzam Mohamed 4:36
because of Trump. But we finally got around that.
Autumn Graleske 4:40
That's amazing.
Zamzam Mohamed 4:41
Yeah, I know. I'm so excited it took since Trump. No, it took the last year of Obama's
presidency to get her approved and everything.
Autumn Graleske 4:52
That's a long time. And you've been back to Kenya since you moved?
Zamzam Mohamed 4:55
I just went back.
Autumn Graleske 4:58
Really?
Zamzam Mohamed 4:59
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 4:59
How long were you there?
Zamzam Mohamed 5:00
Two months. Yeah, it was we were in Nairobi and then we went to because we wanted to stay
with family for some. And then the other half we did vacation. But it's really sad because there's
so much poverty. It's really like...the wealth...inequality. Money inequality. It's so like,
obviously,
Autumn Graleske 5:40
There's like the rich rich. And then the poor
Zamzam Mohamed 5:43
Yes, you can see it's so sad when you're going to my apartment. We were driving within the next
like little like they weren't even houses is literally just people who laid stuff out on the ground
and we're sleeping Just like made it all out of like, metal and stuff and you turn the corner and
there's like, super nice apartments. It's like, so obvious and they don't even try to hide it.
Autumn Graleske 6:21
So, you have, you said you have a big family, other siblings. Do you have like a big extended
family as well?
Zamzam Mohamed 6:28
I do. Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 6:29
And they all still in Kenya or have
Zamzam Mohamed 6:33
Now they all live in different areas. We have some Somalia, Denmark, Sweden, Switzerland.
Here, Canada. California. Yeah, everywhere. Seattle. It was after it. So my parents were lucky
because they got to Kenya. But when the war broke out in Somalia, because there's a civil war,
my parents then ran to Kenya. Some of my family members weren't very lucky so they just had
to disperse to like other countries. And then they all went to countries they got asylum in. Then
they stayed in those countries
Autumn Graleske 7:15
Are those countries, countries like Denmark?
Zamzam Mohamed 7:16
Yeah
Autumn Graleske 7:17
Sweden, because that seems like, yeah. So your parents originally from Somalia?
Zamzam Mohamed 7:23
Yeah
Autumn Graleske 7:26
Gotcha, then they yeah, left after
Zamzam Mohamed 7:28
Yeah. The war and stuff happened.
Autumn Graleske 7:32
So yeah. Let's talk about more about your grandma in that process of kind of getting the visa.
Zamzam Mohamed 7:45
Yeah, it was when Obama was president. It was like, every time we did stuff there would be like
little things that would come up that we can always get our way around. And then when Trump
became President of the travel ban came in Act. And then there was that little period of time that
it wasn't an act. And during that period of time, things kept moving forward. And then once it did
actually get in place, he once I got up to the Supreme Court, I don't even remember what
happened. He added, like, a couple of countries onto the list. So then they said, Oh, it's not just
Muslims, because now it's not regarding the some countries on the list because he added North
Korea, and I believe it was Venezuela. So then, yeah, after that, since things were on pause for
such a long time. They make you do all these blood tests and like everything over again, and it's
hard because you literally have to contact every single child my grandma's ever had. And like, all
my aunts and uncles are like all over the world. They're all doing their own thing. Like it's so
difficult to read, to get all their fingerprints, like all that stuff. Again, it just too much work. But
we kept doing it and then everything got pause and they told us to stop for like a good three
months. And then just a couple of weeks ago, they told us that they finally started processing the
application again, because her health is such in such a dire situation that she needed to come here
and it's in such a dire situation because of the travel ban. If she would have came here earlier, she
would have been able to get the knee surgery that she needed. But now, she's just lived in that
condition and now it's super bad. So we don't even think she can get the knee surgery. So I don't
know. Hopefully she comes here and she doesn't want to come. So now we have to persuade her.
Autumn Graleske 9:43
She doesn't want to come here?
Zamzam Mohamed 9:44
Yeah, yeah.
Autumn Graleske 9:45
Why not?
Zamzam Mohamed 9:46
I don't know. I think my grandma, my grandma first hasn't really big pride thing. So she's like, I
don't want to go to America. She's like, why would I want to go to that trash country? To be
completely honest. That's what she says.
Autumn Graleske 9:58
Alright
Zamzam Mohamed 9:59
Fine. America we love you.
Autumn Graleske 10:05
Actually. Yeah.
Zamzam Mohamed 10:06
Yeah it's pretty crazy. So
Autumn Graleske 10:11
Well, I'm glad you got that figured out. Hopefully you convince your grandma so she can get the
help she needs. It'd be nice to see her, wouldn't it?
Zamzam Mohamed 10:22
I actually just saw her, when I went back. It was the first time I saw her since I was five.
Autumn Graleske 10:27
Really?
Zamzam Mohamed 10:28
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 10:28
How was that?
Zamzam Mohamed 10:29
It was emotional, but it was great. I loved it. Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 10:34
I think the relationships with grandparents are always important. When you went to Kenya, for
you because of like the travel ban, were you afraid of not being able to come back necessarily?
Zamzam Mohamed 10:51
I wasn't afraid of coming back because I knew I had every right to be, I was a citizen. I had my
United States passport, so I knew if they tried to keep me from coming back. Yeah, my putting it
in. But I was scared of like, customs and stuff and when they would ask stuff like that because
they knew of when we were going there they asked us why we going when we were traveling.
And so I was just wearing because when you were traveling there we got stopped in security like
three different times.
Autumn Graleske 11:23
Really?
Zamzam Mohamed 11:24
Yeah. When we went from Minneapolis, we got stopped in TSA. They put us in like a separate
room. And we didn't even have like our luggage or anything. We just sat there and later they're
like, okay, you're good to go. And then when we went to Boston, from Boston we would go to
London and Boston they did the little thing where they check your hands for like any chemical
residue, so like bombs and stuff, and they checked like my laptop, everything my phone, my
headphones. I was like, Oh my gosh, we were just on a plane. What do you guys think I did from
the time I flew from the Minneapolis to Boston. And London, they didn't do anything for us.
Fine. And then once we got to Kenya, I was wearing, like, two sweaters and I had nothing under
other than my bra under the other sweater. And they're trying to get me to take it off to search
me. And I was like, I am literally like, wearing nothing and they and it wasn't the thing that made
me mad about it is they didn't even try to do it privately. Like in a separate room. It was in front
of every other person they were telling me to take of your clothes, and I'm like, What the hell do
I look like to you stripping in front of? Yeah, so that was the only thing that really bothered me is
just security bad things that happens to Muslims. But yeah, that's the only thing that really
Autumn Graleske 12:43
I mean, you say it so like, nonchalantly right, but listening to it. That's crazy.
Zamzam Mohamed 12:49
It's so normal. Like, the amount of stuff that happens to us every day is crazy. And like, I used to
be so naive. So no one's ever gonna say anything. And I used to be like, if someone does say
something, though, I will stand up for myself. And then it happened. And I was like, holy, like
God, when it first happened to me. I was like, What the hell? But now I'm like, it's normal. Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 13:18
That's wild. And, so you went to Kenya, how many times have you
Zamzam Mohamed 13:26
I only went that once, yeah, because of like terrorist issues. They're not really having terrorism.
There's terrorism, terrorists, what do you use. There's terrorism happening in Somalia. But some
of those terrorists are coming into Kenya, they traveled between those two countries. So Kenya
is the safest place and there's a lot of gangs too. That's the biggest other thing like when we are
there, we couldn't have like, our phones out and stuff. You couldn't be wearing jewelry like,
outwardly everything started to be like, you had to cover up your little wealth, the amount.
Autumn Graleske 14:09
So that's interesting because you said today such a, I mean, you like walk past people with
houses that are just tin and then down the street there is
Zamzam Mohamed 14:21
Yeah
Autumn Graleske 14:23
So let's talk about more like when you came to America for the first time. How was that? Like? I
mean, you were so young. Did you experience any kind of like culture shock?
Zamzam Mohamed 14:34
I did experience culture shock. I think the biggest thing was just not speaking English, was the
biggest thing for me. I remember is, it'd be like, difficult to communicate with people and say
Hello, and thank you. And people. I just, it was just difficult to understand. Basically, that's all I
really remember. And I used to think what you guys would do would be odd Like, especially like
just the way you guys dress and stuff it wasn't anything weird it just seemed odd to me, because
in Kenya we would always have to leave the house in like our little dresses with scarves on.
Yeah, it was so basic and here everyone was just wearing like whatever they wanted those jeans
you know so I was just like. But that was just for the girls, boys wore whatever the hell they want
to, because you know men are men, are allowed to do whatever yeah. So that was really the
biggest thing and the food I remember like I was sick for like the first couple of months here just
couldn't really eat anything unless my mom made like actual authentic food, but other than that I
couldn't.
Autumn Graleske 15:52
You still like mostly prefer Somali food?
Zamzam Mohamed 15:56
Oh no now, now I could eat anything. I do, Somali food is still my favorite type of food, but I
love American.
Autumn Graleske 16:09
And like, I feel, like I have never been to Kenya.
Zamzam Mohamed 16:13
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 16:14
Like the weather is it was it difficult?
Zamzam Mohamed 16:19
Yeah, it's not it's really it's really nice. It's very like, mellow I think. I think the Mombasa which
is like the northern part, north eastern part of Kenya, where it's had like the beaches and stuff.
That place is really humid. It hits like hundred and stuff, but other than that, it feels like spring in
Minnesota. Little bit hotter. It's really nice.
Autumn Graleske 16:45
And then Minnesota is like, bipolar.
Zamzam Mohamed 16:47
Yeah, I know. It's so bad. But I went to Kenya, towards the end of the summer beginning not
towards the end of spring, beginning of summer. So Maybe, it's a little bit hotter there.
Autumn Graleske 17:08
And like, just growing up in Minnesota. How is that? Is this, this is normal to you?
Zamzam Mohamed 17:19
I think. I think it was really easy for me at first just because I was really naive to it. I think I just
didn't care. I speak whatever the hell like you can say whatever he wants me, I don't care. But I
think over the years I started to really notice and then it started to bother me. And I think it really
hit freshman, not freshman year, yeah freshman year when I started high school, is when I
started to notice because that's one of the biggest like, event happened, like ever where I was
attacked for being Muslim, but ever since then.
Autumn Graleske 17:57
If you don't mind me asking me, what happened?
Zamzam Mohamed 18:00
Sorry, I meant, I felt like that sounded so bad. But I think I feel like I've told you, but I don't
know.
Autumn Graleske 18:08
You might've
Zamzam Mohamed 18:09
But freshman year when I was on the debate team. On High School, there's this dumb game that
we play called agario. You know that game?
Autumn Graleske 18:17
It sounds familiar
Zamzam Mohamed 18:18
It's like the little balls and you get bigger. Yeah. So the entire team was playing that together.
And this guy on the debate, made it his ball thing you mentioned, he named it the N word with
the ER. And I noticed and I was like, What the hell and I made a big deal about it. And then we
kept arguing about and I don't remember how, but somehow Islam got brought into it. And then
he started talking about the Qur'an and how we were infidels, and how we are going to hell, and
he's super Christian. His mom is I think a state representative or a state senator, really? I don't
want to say the name.
Autumn Graleske 18:56
Yeah, after this I'm gonna ask.
Zamzam Mohamed 18:59
Can you believe And you know, he was saying the entire time he was like, how do you know
about this? He's like, I know about all this because my mom is she goes to dinners with Somalis
who say that? Yeah, like he literally, I know, isn't that and then so basically, why would you go
with the story but he did that and he made a huge deal. And Islam got brought into it and he told
us we were infidels and stuff. And then he told, he muttered under his breath. I'm gonna kill you.
And I was like, What did you say? And he didn't repeat it. And then my sisters and them all got
up and they all came around, because they saw him starting to like he said, yeah, it started to get
pretty violent at this point. He stood up. And yeah, there was another debate guy was sitting on
the other side of me. And he tried to get in between us because the guy was trying to hit me
because I kept arguing with him and he kept getting in between us. He tried to grab a chair to
throw it at me. He tried to throw a chair at me, at Blaine high school. This guy had the audacity
to grab a chair And throw it up and then eventually walk out and do remember, like how the
LARC and the stairs there's, you know that hallway and walk out out of a little computer lab in
the LARC. And he's pacing in the hallway. And then he comes back in and we're all like what
you say? And he was like, I'm going to kill you. And we were like, what'd you say? And he said
it again. And then he walked out and then we ran upstairs to Mrs. Munsch.
Autumn Graleske 20:28
Yeah. I think I think you're fine.
Zamzam Mohamed 20:31
Okay, Yeah. We went upstairs to her and then we told her what happened. And then yeah, it was
just really bad. And then they told us, Can you believe he had a one day suspension? It was one
day and a half because they suspended him fourth and fifth hour. And then the day after the
entire day after. And the school handbook said minimum days for some spin for, oh my gosh, I
cannot talk. Minimum days suspension for a death threat is five days or immediate expulsion.
And he got a day and a half and then when we made a big deal about it to the school. They're
like, they kept saying that, oh, it has to be a learning experience. It has to be learning experience.
And then they told us, they call down other witnesses that we gave them. And then later when I
spoke to all the witnesses, they said they never got called on. When I mentioned that to the
school again, they said, Oh, we actually believe what you guys told us. So we never felt the need
to call down. But then why did you feel the need to lie about it? Yeah, yeah. And then they told
us he'd never be able to be allowed on the debate team again. And then my sophomore year of
debate. Guess who's back on the team.
Autumn Graleske 21:41
That's pretty huge. I had no idea.
Zamzam Mohamed 21:43
Yeah. So I guess I never told you and then he, like later, he always just said stuff. We have a
book of all the shit he used to say, he used to say like, not every terrorist is Muslim, but all
Muslims are terrorists. Yeah, you know. You know, I think you know who she is. She was his
debate partner, and she used to ride the bus with him. And every day on the bus, she kept the
composition notebook to write down every bad thing he's ever said and she filled it up and the
school just still did nothing about it.
Autumn Graleske 22:16
That's...
Zamzam Mohamed 22:17
I know
Autumn Graleske 22:17
I mean, it is Blaine high school.
Zamzam Mohamed 22:19
Yeah, exactly. What do you expect from them? It's a shitty school.
Autumn Graleske 22:26
Like he literally made terroristic threats?
Zamzam Mohamed 22:28
Yeah. He was like, when he was asked about it. He said, I never say I'm going to kill you guys.
All I said is you guys are going to die. Yeah, they're like, if he said you guys are gonna die. It's
not really a death threat, because everyone is gonna die.
Autumn Graleske 22:47
Okay but still, with the context.
Zamzam Mohamed 22:50
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 22:52
That happened freshman year?
Zamzam Mohamed 22:53
Yep, freshman year and then his older brother is... they're just a very entitled family. The teacher
I mentioned earlier, she teaches, she had his older brother in his class, in her class, and the first
day of school. It's her AP US history class the first day of her class. He raised his hand and he's
like, I want you to know, my mom is in a state Congress. So you might as well just give me an A
in the classroom. I know. And my sister was the TA for the class, my older sister, and he ended
up failing at the end, so... very funny, the way things worked out.
Autumn Graleske 23:34
Well, so that you said that kind of changed your outlook.
Zamzam Mohamed 23:38
Yeah, because, it was like, so harsh. Like, holy crap, I didn't expect that to happen. And I think I
don't remember when Trump election happened, was that our freshman year or sophomore year?
Autumn Graleske 23:50
I believe.
Zamzam Mohamed 23:52
It was our sophomore.
Autumn Graleske 23:53
Yeah, they were running our freshman year. Yeah. And then the actual election happened
Zamzam Mohamed 23:58
Sophomore Yeah, I remember that. That was like the biggest thing, because they happen around
the same time because he, Donald Trump won the election. November of our freshman year,
right. If I remember correctly.
Autumn Graleske 24:16
I think...
Zamzam Mohamed 24:19
and then he was in office 2016
Autumn Graleske 24:23
No, I think he won 2016 November of our freshman year, because...
Zamzam Mohamed 24:29
He won november of our freshman year?
Autumn Graleske 24:31
He won November of our Sophomore year, but they were like running, I think. Oh, I'm pretty
sure he came into office our sophomore year.
Zamzam Mohamed 24:44
Okay, but yeah, but anyway, yeah. The election happened to I think everyone like all the
Muslims in the school felt super uneasy, and not even Muslims. Everyone felt easy because he
first attacked so many different races, so many different religions, beliefs, So many different
things that it was just so uncomfortable at school. I just think everything went downhill after
Grant. Yeah. I said his name so you might want to
Autumn Graleske 25:15
Oh okay.
Zamzam Mohamed 25:17
I didn't finish saying it but after that incident.
Autumn Graleske 25:22
So did you. You saw like Muslims in the school they kind of did, throughout, I mean he was
obviously President then for the rest of our high school years. Do you think that there was kind
of a culture change? Did you feel it? Oh wait, you did PSEO didn't you?
Zamzam Mohamed 25:38
Yeah, but that's what I was gonna say is, like sophomore year, I think everyone just hated going
high school because not only me, there's been other incidents that have happened that the
administration has literally never done anything right, done anything about, so everyone literally
did PSEO because of how much they hated Blaine high school. To be honest, like a lot of my
friends didn't do PSEO because they wanted to, although it was a great experience, and we all
loved it. It wasn't because they wanted to do PSEO, it was I have to get the hell out of Blaine
high school, and the only way I can do it is through PSEO.
Autumn Graleske 26:13
Yeah, because I I just remember sophomore year. And then junior year. I never saw you. Or
Sarah. Yeah. Or you know, Ranad, Yeah I never saw you guys.
Zamzam Mohamed 26:25
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 26:27
Wow. So, that freshman year incident, that was the biggest thing. Have you ever had anything
else ever happened?
Zamzam Mohamed 26:36
Well, this didn't really happen to me. It happened more to other people. I was, it was last year but
they basically had this little thing that said, ask me about Islam and said like Muslims, Islam, had
things about the prophets on it, stuff like that. And the school told them you can't have that up
because of promotion of religion. And then They had to take it down and they just had to. And
then they took pictures around the school about like the FCA fellow Christian Athletes, whatever
that thing is, they took pictures of that and they're like is this promotion of religion because it
says Christian and then there's flyers around the school that's a Bible study as well. And Bible
implies Christianity so that's promotion of religion as well. So the school denied it all they're like
that's not promotion of religion if you guys want you can do this, this this this this and what you
put it up and then they refused and then I got super mad and I was like, What the hell this isn't
right. And the school knows it's not right. And I talked to them about it and they're basically you
know, they told me they said you're not even a student here, so don't even concern yourself. They
basically, yeah, like what the hell do you mean I'm not a student? Yeah. And I was like, just
because I do PSEO doesn't mean I'm going to let you guys do all this crap that you think is right
and let you guys get away with it because it's not right. And then they, we had meetings planned.
And then I had to cancel one of the meetings because Something came up. And then, like every
other time, he kept pushing it, the principal, kept pushing it. He's like, oh, sorry, I was on
vacation. I just came back. I had meetings, those are these. I'm like any of those meetings on
your schedule is just as important as a meeting I'm having with you. So figure something out,
because I'm meeting with and then in the end, never ended up meeting. But the district ended up
getting involved and the district was like, Oh, actually, you guys are fine to do the poster you
wanted to do initially, there was nothing wrong with it. So you can do it now. But they're like,
we already had the effing event. So there's no use for that poster now. They're like, sorry, but
next year, you could. Yeah, it's not. I know. So. I mean, the audacity to think they were right the
entire time and to speak to me that way. And then eventually the district has to get in and say,
Oh, it's okay. You guys could have done it pisses me off, so
Autumn Graleske 28:57
That's not even like a promotion of religion.
Zamzam Mohamed 28:59
I know, it literally just says ask me a question about Islam like if you really hate it, is it that hard
to just go woop and keep walking
Autumn Graleske 29:05
Exactly and like it's just meant to educate more people, like it's a school, you don't want to
educate?
Zamzam Mohamed 29:12
That's what it is
Autumn Graleske 29:16
I noticed I mean, you guys kept pushing for it and you didn't just like take a you know, you
weren't just like, Okay. That kind of perseverance, I mean, you were ready to fight for this?
Zamzam Mohamed 29:30
Yeah, yeah, I don't, it just bothers me now before I like I never used to care for not politics or
yeah politics and civil rights any of that stuff. I never really cared for that stuff. I always thought
I wanted to become a doctor and I was I ever cared about until the Grant thing happened. And
then I was like, I have to come after you trash people like so that's what I decided like, yeah, this
is what I'm going to do. So that's, yeah, this is in economics, but I want to go into law school
after
Autumn Graleske 30:01
Okay, I see you.
Zamzam Mohamed 30:03
Yeah, but we'll see. So yeah, that really just made me want to do this stuff.
Autumn Graleske 30:12
It's like, people don't really pay attention to politics. Yeah, unless it actually touches their lives.
Zamzam Mohamed 30:19
Yeah. That pisses me off when people say oh yeah, I don't care for politics. I'm like shut the hell
up. Like you're only saying that because you have the privilege of not caring for politics. If you,
if someone said, Oh, if you're white, we're going to take away your iPhone, you would get pissed
Autumn Graleske 30:19
and then they'd be all into politics
Zamzam Mohamed 30:27
Yeah, they'd be like let's go rally right now
Autumn Graleske 30:43
Yeah, alright, I mean I had no idea. I mean talking I talked to a lot of people about high school
and my experience is very different than everybody else's. But yeah, very different. But one
thing we do have a common was lacrosse.
Zamzam Mohamed 31:13
Yup.
Autumn Graleske 31:15
I feel like, well it's not about me. How did you, like why did you join the lacrosse?
Zamzam Mohamed 31:22
My older sister did it
Autumn Graleske 31:23
Yeah?
Zamzam Mohamed 31:23
Yeah, and that's why I did it and I always wanted to do a sport. Volleyball I never liked,
basketball was just eh, soccer nope. Lacrosse seemed like the right fit for me. So I did it.
Autumn Graleske 31:38
You played for your freshman year?
Zamzam Mohamed 31:41
I did freshman, sophomore, a little bit junior, never senior.
Autumn Graleske 31:46
And you enjoyed it?
Zamzam Mohamed 31:47
Yeah, senior I only came, senior year you were varsity goalie, right?
Yeah, I just came to watch your games. And I coached with Haley. Just because I love Haley.
Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 32:02
Okay
Zamzam Mohamed 32:03
Yeah, so it's fun.
Autumn Graleske 32:06
I loved freshman year B-squad with you guys
Zamzam Mohamed 32:10
It was so I just across just because it was entertaining and fun, and it was just a way to stay fit
without actually thinking because I don't really care about like, physical, other than just staying
healthy. Yeah, so it was my way of staying healthy without doing anything.
Autumn Graleske 32:29
I can't remember. It was one of those freshman, freshman or sophomore year, but Ramadan fell
within the lacrosse season. How? How was that?
Zamzam Mohamed 32:42
Horrible. I remember, it was just so bad. There's like, it's just super hot and then you're running
and you're exhausted. And I remember it was towards the end of finals week for us, because we
finish the school year earlier than Blaine high school does. So we had finals and Ramadan and
lacrosse, so we like study, Oh hey it's time to go out. It was horrible and I remember Junior year
I had like a hardest biology class with a friend. So we were both like thinking out on biology
while we were playing lacrosse and you're starving as well. But it was also nice because I think
we got closer, the Muslims on the team at least got closer because we would hang out after and
get Iftar together, it's when you break your fast. So that was nice, but.
Autumn Graleske 33:30
You get closer if you battle adversity together.
Zamzam Mohamed 33:34
Yeah, pain.
Autumn Graleske 33:37
I mean, could you have like, I suppose didn't have to necessarily practice or
Zamzam Mohamed 33:44
Yeah it's, in Islam it is mandatory to fast Ramadan if you can fast it. If like, I think under the
right circumstances you wouldn't be allowed to, for, if you really cared about lacrosse that much.
I think it's all personal. If you cared about the process, which I do that important to perform your
best at that game, then there'd be nothing wrong with you not fasting that day and just making it
up later. That's all you have to do. So, if you miss a day, you just have to make it up, but you just
have to be sure you're missing it for the right reasons. So there'd be a couple of games that I
really want to play really well so she wouldn't fast that just because you know, I mean, so it's just
your personal but you have to make sure you're still being dutiful. I don't know what'd you say?
To your religion
Autumn Graleske 33:53
I think that works, I think devout is too extreme.
Zamzam Mohamed 34:42
Yeah. Because it's not. Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 34:45
Yeah. I get what you're saying
Zamzam Mohamed 34:46
Yeah, to your religion but also
Autumn Graleske 34:48
Gotcha, well lacrosse was, I was always like, I felt, I don't know if bad is the right word, but I
was like damn, you guys are strong as hell. And then sophomore year we had gym class together.
Zamzam Mohamed 35:12
Yes, and we were weight partners. That was so fun.
Autumn Graleske 35:18
The best
Zamzam Mohamed 35:19
You were like my favorite person ever. You were like one of the very few people I can get along
with. There's very few people I can get along with.
Autumn Graleske 35:25
Yeah, we had the best conversations.
Zamzam Mohamed 35:25
Yeah, it's really weird. I don't know. I think like just the person I'm friends with has to really get
me and not even get me well, I just have to be able to have a normal conversation with you. And
I feel like I can't do that more.
Autumn Graleske 35:25
Really?
Zamzam Mohamed 35:43
I love your hair clips by the way, sorry I
Autumn Graleske 35:46
Thank you, Um,
I think we were playing tennis one time. We just had like an entire conversation while we're
playing, playing tennis about um, I don't know I was just asking you questions about Islam
Zamzam Mohamed 35:59
Yeah, I like where we can have like just normal conversations during the normal stuff. Yeah.
Autumn Graleske 36:05
I mean, I don't know if we really played tennis
Zamzam Mohamed 36:08
We did whatever we wanted, who was our gym teacher? Lachinski? She loved us.
Autumn Graleske 36:13
Yeah. So overall, how would you rate your high school experience.
Zamzam Mohamed 36:21
Zero, I hated high school. Well, the Blaine High School portion, freshman and sophomore. The
junior and senior year were great. Freshman and sophomore year I hated it. Gosh, I wish Blaine
High School would thrive into much beautiful. A prettier school. Better people, better
administration.
Autumn Graleske 36:45
Well now you're here and I totally didn't know you were here. I'm so glad you are because
honestly I missed you.
Zamzam Mohamed 36:51
I missed you too, I miss like, I just think High School is great because there's just so many
people that I just had such nice friendships that then I lost all that when school started and
everyone like moved. A bunch of people who go out of state. I thought sorry. I thought you were
going to go out of state for school?
Autumn Graleske 37:16
Honestly, I couldn't.
Zamzam Mohamed 37:17
Oh okay.
Autumn Graleske 37:20
Why did you choose Augsburg?
Zamzam Mohamed 37:23
Um, it was between Augsburg and the U. And I just wanted a smaller school. But I'm
transferring next year. Yeah, just because for what I want to do for law school, first Augsburg
doesn't have a law school. So Hamlin and the U both have law schools. So either one of those,
probably the U because it has a better law school.
Autumn Graleske 37:47
You want to go to law school, what do you want to do? Like?
Zamzam Mohamed 37:51
I don't know. So I work at Best Buy right now. And I have an internship there for the summer
just for like a business internship. But once I start law, they have an internship. I could do there
too. But I'm really stuck on whether I'm going to do corporate law or civil rights law on the side
or the right side of corporate. So I don't know because corporate law really brings ingood money,
but it's really dirty. Yeah. I mean, it's a dirty business, but as long as no human rights laws are
violated.
Autumn Graleske 38:32
As a lawyer, I guess that's what you can do.
Zamzam Mohamed 38:35
Yes.
Autumn Graleske 38:36
Try your best to make sure
Zamzam Mohamed 38:37
Yeah. And I think that's been most importantly is I have morals that are keeping me from
wanting to do corporate law just because I know how bad things can get in corporate law with
the things that happen. Or... and I've done like CAIR and stuff, internships for them, but it's just a
very you know, I mean, I always want to be in an area that, I just want to work somewhere fast
pace. You're doing stuff all the time and feel like that's a corporate environment. Civil rights is
just
Autumn Graleske 39:12
I guess it depends
Zamzam Mohamed 39:13
Take it as it comes
Autumn Graleske 39:14
Yeah, you can't really... something happens. You can control it.
Zamzam Mohamed 39:20
Yeah. And you only get paid based off of your clients and I feel like if you're doing civil rights
or, yeah if you're doing civil rights you're not going to have that many clients because you're
working with low income. Yes. So I think probably what I would do is corporate law and then do
pro bono civil rights.
Autumn Graleske 39:25
You want to make bank, yeah, also make an impact.
Zamzam Mohamed 39:50
Yeah. And I think the way I don't even think the people who need good lawyers can afford them.
And I'm going to be a great one. So yeah, because they all get like public defenders who are like
working for the state, that get paid nothing, who don't really care about the cases they're working.
So yeah.
Autumn Graleske 40:18
I think you'd make a great lawyer.
Zamzam Mohamed 40:20
Thank you. I really hope I do. We'll see. Debate Team set me up. I love debate.
Autumn Graleske 40:32
I don't know if, Honestly, I don't know, does Augsburg have like a debate?
Zamzam Mohamed 40:36
Yeah they do.
Autumn Graleske 40:37
I know the U has a ton. I'm pretty sure I saw a sign for debate. So are you interested in going
back into that?
Zamzam Mohamed 40:45
I don't think I wanted to do university debate. I would love to do mock trial, ugh, if I found a
school that had a mock trial. I would jump on it because in high school I did it. I took a debate
with Mr. Connors if you know him, and then I took it with him for two years because he had the
debate one and honors debate. And I freaking love that class and the second trimester we did
mock trial. So, I don't know. We'll see. So I want to go to law school out of state, hopefully. And
if I do, Howard, is where I want to go and they have a mock trial team. Yeah, or Harvard, but Ivy
League is dirty business. don't like them. All universities are dirty in some way, but Ivy leagues
are getting really dirty.
Autumn Graleske 41:41
Alright
Zamzam Mohamed 41:43
Big goals, we'll see how it goes. Yeah, everything under anything undergrad. I don't really care
for, but grad school I want to go somehwere big.
Autumn Graleske 41:53
Yeah, you got big, big goals.
Zamzam Mohamed 41:56
Yep, sadly, but I think It's better because law school I have a lot of time. It's like professions like
these, you have a lot of times to work up to those goals eventually, you know. So eventually I'll
get to an Ivy league, eventually you'll see my name at an Ivy league.
Autumn Graleske 42:16
I expect it
Zamzam Mohamed 42:17
Thank you. You better expect it. If you don't I'll be disappointed.
I'm really loving this pen, kind of entertaining. I might have to keep it.
Autumn Graleske 42:32
You might have to keep it? Well is there, I mean, I think we got some good stuff
Zamzam Mohamed 42:40
Yeah that was awhile
Autumn Graleske 42:42
Do you have anything else that you'd like to talk about? Or I mean?
Zamzam Mohamed 42:51
No, I'm just gonna say if you haven't registered to vote, register to vote!
Autumn Graleske 42:58
Well, thank you Zamzam
Zamzam Mohamed 42:59
Yeah, thank you
Bye, guys.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great questio... Show more
Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great question. Um, I had classes and stuff in the
morning, so I had to, you know, be awake for that. Also, this morning,
I watched the Chauvin trials just to understand what's going on. It
was very interesting. I do want to go into law. So I was like, this is
a really good way to understand what's going on, especially so close.
Ours is like, you know, our city and like, our campus. So yeah, that
was those that took up a big part of my morning. Yeah,
Salma Awil 0:45
they brought their first one witness in today. And I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna watch it. But I kind of got a littel glimpse of what was
going on today.
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah, no,
0:52
Salma Awil 0:53
yeah. So What year are you? for college?
Zack Abdullahi 0:57
I'm a senior. So I'm going to be graduating in like, a month or
something.
Salma Awil
Congrats.
1:01
Zack Abdullahi 1:01
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Salma Awil 1:04
Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Zack Abdullahi 1:07
For sure. So like I said, my name is Zakariya. Um, I was born in
Kenya. So when you were talking about Kenya, I was like, I remember a
little bit of that. But I didn't live in Kenya for too long. I lived
there for like two years. And then I moved to Somalia. And we lived in
kismayo for a while. Me and my mom. And then we moved back to Kenya
for like, a little bit. And then we moved to Uganda. And we lived
there for like two years. Yeah, no, we moved back to Kenya. And I was
like, Oh, my God, this country. So um, yeah, that was that. And then I
came here on is about eight years old. And I've lived here like, since
then.
Salma
A lot
from?
years
Awil 1:41
of traveling a lot back and fourth. So how was it I'm traveling
So you said you came? You came back here when you was eight
old?
Zack Abdullahi 1:50
Yeah. Yeah. moved to America when I was eight,
Salma Awil 1:53
eight. So how was it like going from Somalia to Kenya to here and then
coming back here?
Zack Abdullahi 1:59
Um, it was very experience
Salma Awil
of all
2:01
Zack Abdullahi 2:02
like, yeah, it was very weird, because in Kenya, like, I lived in
Nairobi, in a community. Like little I don't know what it is, but it's
called Eastleigh. And so it's basically a sub section of Nairobi. And
there's a huge Somali community there. So when we left there and went
to Somalia, I didn't know we left because I was like, oh, more
Somalis? Yeah. So like, it wasn't really that different. And then when
we when we went to go live in Uganda, we lived in the capital city
city, Kampala. And we lived in like a majority Somali neighborhood.
But Kampala was a little different. Because there was more like, you
know, non Somalis, and I got to see them. And I remember thinking,
like, because most of most of the people I met were Muslim, but like
they weren't Somali. So I was confused. I was like, how can you be
Muslim and not Somali? Because I thought I'm assuming Somalia was the
same thing. And then I came here, and then that was, yeah, that I got
thrown out the window because I was like, dang, like, no Muslims.
barely any. And yeah, that like, the whole thing was just different.
Cuz in Africa, like, you're just living your best life, like you don't
have to stress about much. And then come here, and it's very
different.
Salma Awil 3:05
So how was it when you came here? And did you fit in with a somali
community or like, slash the Muslim community? How was it?
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah,
3:13
Salma Awil 3:13
you said you had problems with uganda . So coming here from like,
Kenya, you said something about going Somalia to Kenya, and you feel
like you're still at home? Because, you know, with the Somali
community. So coming back here, how was that with? You know, finding
your own community? Like was that hard? Any experiences that you had
with?
Zack Abdullahi 3:31
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, yeah. So when I came here,
everybody's like, Oh, your fob, because you're not English. I don't
remember much To be honest, like the first like, year or something,
because I remember it was just like, I could understand English, but I
couldn't understand it that well. So I knew what was being said, but I
didn't know like, how to respond and stuff. And so I think I came like
first second grade or something. And the Somali were like, he's a fob,
like, don't talk to him. So that wasn't, that wasn't like, I didn't
really connect with them as much. And then I went to a, like, a cadaan
school, I guess, public school. And it was just awkward, because like,
I didn't know anything, like I didn't know how to interact with people
nothing. And then I would fight people a lot because I'd be like, Oh,
you're talking shit about my mom. Like, we're gonna fight and so like,
there's just a lot of fights. And yeah, so like, I didn't know
anything. And then my dad took me to a charter school. And it was very
small, like you were talking about earlier. And there it was still
like your fault because I still didn't know English. So yeah, so
they're still like, Yo, dude, you're fob. Like, we're all born here.
Like, you know, speake English. So I was in ESL for like, two three
years, like just trying to learn English, make sure I had that down.
And then after that, things got better because like, it felt like I
was part of like, you know, the society and community cuz like, I have
gotten used to things by them.
Salma Awil 4:52
Okay, so you said he went to a public school to
did you go to? That the two changes from public
transition go was it like hard, even though you
mentioned. So like that to transition like what
like, public to charter cuz. For me it was kind
cultural thing. Yeah. Um, is that same for you?
a charter what schools
to charter? Yeah. that
said it was kind of
made your parents
of more like a
Zack Abdullahi 5:14
I think so because for me like I was just the troublemaker because I
was fighting everybody in their mom and the public schools and my dad
was like, well, maybe he goes to a school for people that look like
him and like, you know, speak Somali a little bit like they can defuse
the situation. So that's why they took me there. And I went to Wilson
Elementary School, which was also I think they had like a Spanish
Immersion program. And the horrible thing is, I was learning Spanish,
and I wasn't learning English. And they're getting tired of me because
you're here to be learning English, not Spanish. So the whole school
is trying to me My dad was tired of it. So they just took me to the
higher ground Academy, which was in St. Paul. And that places Somali
Central. So yeah, and I remember when I first came into that school, I
was like, I saw all the Somali boys. And I was like, Oh, my God, like,
this is amazing. And I remember going up to him be like, hey, do you
want to be friends? And I was like, in third grade or something. And
there would be like, who else's weirdo bro. But after a while, like, I
think like, couple weeks and like it was it was fine. I was still the
fob because like, I still didn't know English that long. But the cult,
like, changing into that, like getting to know people wasn't too bad.
Salma Awil 6:18
So how is it now with the Somali community right now live from like,
he said, he came here at eight till now. So was that any hard finding
like you know, local mosque like masijd finding within your own
community? Have you had any had any hardships with that?
Zack Abdullahi 7:02
I would say not too much. Because my dad lived here before me. My mom
came here. So Excuse me. So he was like, he knew all the masjids. He
knew everything. So when we came here, I kind of just followed his
lead. I had family and cousins that lived here. So like, I got to be
with them and kind of like connect with Somali community there. I
would say the only change I saw really was when I went to high school.
I went to Roseville area High School in Roseville. And there wasn't
that many Somalis there at all. So it was hard like to connect, and I
lived in Roseville. So like, I didn't get to see that many Somalis
ever. And the first time I ever came to Minneapolis, like for more
than like, a couple hours when I was when I moved on campus for
Augsburg, so living in Roseville and going to school, they're like,
I've barely saw Somalis. And so there was a huge disconnect when I
came to Minneapolis here and like, I got to meet Somalis at Augsburg
and Somalis in the community. Because they were like, Oh, you act
white. And you think your white, And you think you're better than us.
And this and that. And I was like, all, you know, like, cuz I feel
like our values, not our values, perse, but like, just kind of the way
we are. Yeah, is they thought they were like, Oh, you don't hold those
values that we hold. And so for me, I'm like, Oh, well, like, I want
to be on time like this, this and that. And like, I remember freshman
year, people were like, Oh, you you want to do this, this and that.
And you think you're better than us. And you think you're not Somali
and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, cool. But I think the core values
still exist that you know, like, we're Muslims, and we have these
values that you know, we uphold and that type of stuff. But there's
little
Salma Awil 8:34
Yeah, I understand. Okay, so how was it when you came here? Cuz you
said on Roseville for her freshman year? How was it with you know, cuz
he said there was a little disconnect. How did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 8:48
Um, so freshman year, I lived on campus. And I had three other
roommates. One of them my direct roommate was Mexican, and the other
two were Somali. And like I said, like, our culture's, I guess, kind
of like, me, and the other small guys weren't really like, compatible,
just because like, they grew up in Minneapolis, and like, this was
their area until like, they would always have friends over. And for
me, that was like, not like, you can't just have random people like in
the living room and in my bedroom. Now that's so like, we had that
clash. And they'd be like, yo, just chill out, bro. Like, you know,
and that's where the whole like, Oh, you think you're white, all this
part stuck in. So it's just kind of hard to try to connect with people
because it was like, all like, we do these things. And like, you don't
do these things. And you know, it's just weird. But I think after a
while, I was just like, finding my own thing and doing my own thing
and not being like, Oh, I need to find friends or I need to find a
community this and that. And I think now being a senior like, it's
definitely changed where I do have a lot more Somali friends. And I
think it's just about finding like people that you click with, like
you said earlier and then just going from there.
Salma Awil 9:50
Definitely. Okay. So this is kind of on since you're graduating. What
are your future plans, like what do you want to do and why? Yeah,
that's
Unknown Speaker 10:00
where I'm so I'm actually accepted an offer from the U of M, the
Humphrey School, literally right there to start my master's of
development practice in September, so shall be going into
international development working on doing Education Development,
either in Africa or the Middle East. So hopefully, doing that stuff.
So yeah, thank you. So, because, like, I remember being a kid in
Africa and like, be like, my daughter would be like, oh, education is
super important. And when I travel, like, and I go visit, like home
and like mogadishu, or wherever, like I always see, like a lack of
education. And people like need an education so they can build their
country and their selves up. So that's why I'm like, I want to go into
that field and like, dedicate my life to doing that for like, our
communities.
Salma Awil 10:46
Great. MashAllah, amazing, you know, going back home to like, because
that I still going back home again, I see videos, or like my mom
talking about it, saying, you know, we have a lack of education, they
would come here for Yeah, I totally understand. You know, MashAllah.
Congrats on that. So, what other countries? Have you been to? I know,
this is kind of off topic?
Zack Abdullahi 11:09
Yeah. I visited a couple countries, I'd say,
Salma Awil 11:13
like, rather than Uganda and Kenya. And so,
Unknown Speaker 11:15
yeah, I would say, I've been to like, if you Eithopia, Israel and
Palestine, which is a weird one, and then Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
But yeah,
Salma Awil 11:26
so that kind of ties into so how is it from visiting other countries?
Like, did you see other Muslim communities? Did you like, you know,
fit in with, like, you know, how was it from experiencing from
Minnesota from home to other, you know, Muslim communities? Yeah. Was
it a little bit different? Was it like, how did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 11:46
Um, I would say in the more Muslim predominant countries, like it was,
it was really easy. In the case of Israel and Palestine, that was very
interesting, because, especially being black. Because like, we went,
like, we went everywhere within the country, like we went up north,
like the south and then. So that was a little awkward, because like,
they had, they hadn't really seen like, too many black people up
there. But when we went to Jerusalem, like you, like, within the city,
like there's like, the Muslim quarters, and the Jewish quarters, and
the Christian quarters, and you're when you're moving around those
like the Muslims, like, I don't know how, like, everybody just knows
they're Somali, I swear to god is weird. It's like that type of blood.
Right? Cuz like I was walking around, and they'd be like, they'd be
like, yo, yo, come here, and they use go up to them. They're like, all
right, like, you're Somali, blah, blah, blah, you know, you see, and I
was like, What? And that's the same thing that happens in Medina. And
like, monka, to like, they just, they just be yelling, like Somalis
and stuff. Yeah, so it's, I think the Muslim community, wherever you
go, is very connected. And I think I was surprised cuz I was like, I
would not be able to tell if somebody was like, you know, Egyptian, or
Palestinian or this or that. Like, I don't know, most people look the
same to me. Like, I'm not gonna lie. So yeah,
Salma Awil 13:00
definitely. Yeah. It is kind of hard to tell kind of people but it's
interesting how you said that you went to Medina? Was it? How they
told you, come here, Come here, and know, your Somali. And so that
was really interesting. Was it like, a whole shock like that? Like,
how did you interpret that? Um,
Zack Abdullahi
13:19
I think, because so many like Somalis do visit Mecca and Medina.
They're used to seeing them. So like, I went with a couple guys from
Augsburg and like other other guys from Minneapolis. If I could study
abroad, they did there. No, it was just like a bunch of sorry. No, no,
it's just a bunch of guys that went together. Through this program
called strung together in Minnesota. You might have heard of it. Yeah.
So like, it's just a bunch of boys. There's like 30 or 40 of us, we
all went there. And then an hour hotel is right next to like all the
shops right next to the prophete masjid. So like, we were to go from
our hotel to the masjid you had to pass by the shopping center And
there was be like, a Samana. Like there would be yelling at the top of
their lungs. And then they'd be like, come here, we have a deal for
you. Okay, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's just super fun.
Because, like, they're just like, you know, doing their thing. And
we're just like, having fun. It wasn't like, anything weird or like,
yeah, I'm trying to try to like scam us or something like that.
Salma Awil 14:17
Okay, so back to Minnesota. Is Minnesota, like the place that you
would, like, bring back come back as a family? Is it like a, I would
say, a safe space for us and you know, traveled in different
countries? Would you like to come back here and start a family?
Zack Abdullahi 14:33
Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely say that, um, but also
thinking of like, what I would do, like, career wise, I'll be
traveling a lot internationally. So I feel like maybe like, living in
different places would also be nice. But I'm also trying to think of
like if like the inshallah, like having kids and like we're, you know,
like constantly moving them because I hated moving when I was a kid.
But I think Minnesota would definitely be a place just because there's
already that that community, that structure and Then like, you know,
they get to see people like them. They also have a bit of diversity
where like, it's not just Somalis. But another place I always wanted
to live. After visiting is Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, because it's so
beautiful and like, I have family and friends there and I was just
like, like this This place is, you know, so yeah, as definitely like,
I definitely think about that like, like either Jeddah, Somalia. I
don't know, like, I feel like there's too many Somalis to be honest.
And then here, just because like, you know, like, they get to be in
that Islamic, like surroundings in Minnesota, because there's a lot of
Somalis in in Jeddah, like, Saudi Arabia, like Mecca is an hour away.
So it's beautiful. Yeah.
Salma Awil 15:40
Um, so how is it with? I would say, since it's more COVID now, like,
you know, we get used to the COVID with wearing mask? How is that with
you? Like, the everything is my virtual and resume? The How is that
with, you know, interacting with other Muslim communities? Is that Is
it hard to like, even, you know, masjid, you know, going to the
mosque, or anything like that, is it more virtual? Like, how was that
for you? Like, how's that road?
Zack Abdullahi 16:07
Yeah, I remember in March, last year, like my dad, when he left for
Somalia to visit, like, family and stuff. And I was just by myself,
and I was like, you know, like, we still didn't know too much about
COVID. Because we were hearing about it. And then like, once he got
there, they started talking about, like, We're shutting down airports,
in Somalia, all this stuff. And I remember like, being like oh Ramadan
is coming up, and like, I'm gonna spend it all by myself. And that was
just sad. Because I was like, dang, like, usually men who mean him
would go to the masjid and like, you know, do our thing. Like, it was
just like, a routine and like culture that we had. And then, like, the
worst part was just not getting to, like, go to Tel Aviv or anything
like that. It was just like, yeah, you were just stuck in the house. I
was just there by myself and be like, just praying and stuff. But
yeah, that has been, I think the worst part is not having that
community because I think Muslim, like, Islam is surrounded by like,
you know, the core things like having that community, like, that's why
we do Hajj. That's what we do Umrah. I'm not like a lot of these
things we do together as a community, so we can build, you know, that
community up. So when COVID came along, he just ruined all that it was
just super hard. Even now trying to go to the masjid on Fridays, like,
you have to sign up on a website, or you have to be in line
Salma Awil 17:19
some masjid, they give you like a COVID screening or something like
that.
Zack Abdullahi 17:22
Yeah, it's very, like they have a lot of things going on. So like, I
have to try to find the right masjid at the right time and all this.
So that does kind of mess that up on. I remember before COVID started.
A lot of the guys that Augsburg and I would go to this mystery type
just like a mile away. And we would go there for like holidays and
stuff. Like now we can't do that. So like, This definitely just
literally just came along and said we're we're I'm ruining everything.
So
Salma Awil 17:49
COVID COVID did really messed up a lot of things. Yeah. Um, so what do
you look forward to like right now? Like, since the Ramandan is coming
up, you know, since COVID? Are, I think my more masjid right now are
starting to open back up? Yeah. Like, what are your plans for that?
Like, how do you feel?
Zack Abdullahi 18:06
Yeah, um, so my dad is back in my mom's back. So I'm like, this is at
least going to be like, not as lonely as last time, it was awkward. So
I'm excited for that. But also, I think, hopefully, the masjid are
opened up, just like going like with my dad and my friends and just
going through the motions and spending time together. Because I think,
like, even with my cousins, like, last year, we couldn't do anything.
So going through the masijid and spending time with them. It was
just, I think, important. So that's one thing. Hopefully we can like,
interact with more people too, because it's not like, you don't build
like community just in the midst of like, you can build it outside
too. So hopefully we get to do that. Hopefully, Eid does not ruin
because last year, that was horrible. It was terrible. So yeah, I'a,
let things work out, hopefully, hopefully and i'a
Salma Awil 18:56
Okay, so another question I'm going to ask you is, how did your faith
you know, influenced your life as a Somali man in the Muslim
community?
Zack Abdullahi 19:07
Um, I would say when I was like living in Africa and like more Muslim
communities, I guess, like, I was a kid, to be honest, but still,
like, I never had to worry about things. And I think of something my
dad told me where he was like, oh, when I lived in Somalia before the
Civil War and stuff like, like, he didn't see like, so like, for
example, like in the Quarn, like, don't do this, don't do that. And
he's like, oh, like, Who would ever do that? Like, why would people do
that? And he's like, when I came here, like, he's like, I saw, you
know, the things that I really I was oblivious to. And so I kind of
have that sense to where I'm like, when I came here, I'm like, yo,
like, my faith is super important. And I need to hold that dear. But I
think one thing that I absolutely love about Muslims and Islam in
general is like, the generosity part. Like we're always and Somalis
like, specifically like you mentioned this to in your interview. But
like, I don't think I've ever been to like Somalis were like stingy or
weird about things. Like they're always so like welcoming and just,
like you never feel like out of place, you know. And so that
generosity for me is important because I've met so many kind people
like around the world, like, Everywhere I go, like I always meet kind
people. And like, anytime I'm at an airport, and like, there's other
Somalis there, they're always helping each other. Yes. And so like,
that's just like, so beautiful to me. And just to see, like, you know,
that they have that common shared identity and like, they will never
probably see each other again, but like, they care about each other
and like, they have that love for each other regardless. So like,
that's something I want to always have like shout, pass down to my
kids and be like, yo, like, you love people. respect people. And just
always be generous to people because like, if you're closing your
hand, you know, like Allah gives you the risk that's not yours to keep
and you know, try to be stingy with so like, always give and always
love, I think would be something that
Salma Awil 20:55
it's really good to hear. So little going back to what you said
earlier, you talked about how you went to Roosevelt to higher ground I
believe. So did you face any like as a Somali boy did you face any
like hardships? Like not hardships but with your faith with? Did you
feel any or conflicted with going to a public school or compared to a
more charter? Because more charter I would say is more Higherground is
more Somali, I would say that much you know Somali dominant, but
compared to going to a public school? Was your deen you know, your
faith? Was there any compromise or anything like that?
Zack Abdullahi 21:32
Yeah, that's a great question. Cuz I remember specifically. So when we
moved to Roseville, and my parents were thinking of like, where to
send me to school and stuff. A lot of the Somali people are like, Oh,
don't send your son to like, Rosemont high school because like, you
know, there's like, you know, like, gay people. And there's like this
and that, like, there's a weird white people and like, school shooters
and all this stuff that they're talking about. And so my parents were
really scared, but they're also like, do like, you know, he's, he's
getting to be like an adult and like, he needs to make decisions for
himself. So they let me go there. And like I said, there was barely
any Somalis in my freshman year, there was like, five of us like three
girls and two boys that were Somali. And I remember like, possible, it
was always weird, because like, I would walk in the hallways, and I
will see people literally eating each other's face and like just
making out doing random things. Like, I remember like seeing people
just disrespecting like their teachers and like, parents in so many
different things. And I would always think to myself, like my dad saw
me like, I would not make it that far. And so like, there's definitely
like clashes where I was like, you know, and the hardest part was
like, trying to pray in high school.
Salma Awil
Yeah, I
22:39
Zack Abdullahi 22:39
think college was easier. But high school I remember telling my gym
teacher, like, all my friends have to go pray like, he was only on
this one kid. She'd be like, no, you're just trying to skip out on
gym, or like math teacher would be like, Oh, you're bad at math. So
you're just trying to skip all like, bro, like, I don't like a little
you take 5,10 minutes max. Like, just to go pray. I remember we had to
go through this whole thing to like, you know, make sure we can pray
and like get prayer spaces and all this stuff. There was never MSA at
our school. So we had to start then, like, try to build community
there. So it was definitely difficult just because, like, it's so easy
to like, you know, like, just go into that, like, Oh, it's easier to
give up than to continue to resist and fight. So yeah,
Salma Awil 23:20
it is hard with the public school to like talk about you know,
religion wise, because back in your time, not saying that your old. It
is really hard to talk about, like prayer, even with right now with my
own. Like when I just graduated high school, it was a little bit more
teachers were like now getting used to like kids praying, you know,
kids getting out of class. But yeah, it was difficult, honestly, I
would say.
So, what are you so coming to freshmen here? I was at augsburg
university? Um, did you like, were you involved? Any other like, like
MSA activities, or any, you know, did you were you involved in any
school activities? Can you tell me a little bit more on that?
Zack Abdullahi 24:02
Yeah. Um, so as I mentioned, like, a little bit ago, In high school,
we started the MSA. And that, like, we started that my junior year,
and I was president for the two like, junior senior year. And so, by
the time when I was done with that, I was like, I'm doing student
organizations. I'm doing all that stuff. I never want to see them
again. So when I came to Augsburg, I was very anti, like student orgs.
And I was just like, I'm not doing this. But I did try to go to like
MSA events and stuff just to like, build that community because I felt
like I wasn't that close to the Somalis. And, you know, I think I had
a lot more like Mexican, like Latin ex friends than I did. And so I
was like, because of my roommate was Mexican. So I was like, all I
need to build that. That's where I went. I went to some PASU events.
And then yeah, and then sophomore year, I was kind of gone most of the
time out the country or like out of state, so I didn't get to do that.
And then last year, I ran for president of PASU. And then I became
president and then that's kind of been really like, that's been most
of my Invand then outside of that just like doing like scholarship
stuff and like fellowship stuff on campus. But yeah,
Salma Awil 25:07
yeah, what is PASU?
Zack Abdullahi 25:10
Oh, my bad, it's Pan African Student Union. Okay, great.
Salma Awil 25:13
Is there anything that you want to conclude or that you want to add
that we haven't talked about?
Zack Abdullahi 25:21
No, I think you did a pretty good job.
Salma Awil
Okay.
25:24
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Aisha Sow 0:04
I'm Aisha Sow, I'm a part of the oral history project for Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University.
I'm here in St. Paul, Minnesota, interviewing Valerie Shirley. So sister Valerie, if you can introduce
yourself to the recording by saying your full name when and where you ... Show more
Aisha Sow 0:04
I'm Aisha Sow, I'm a part of the oral history project for Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University.
I'm here in St. Paul, Minnesota, interviewing Valerie Shirley. So sister Valerie, if you can introduce
yourself to the recording by saying your full name when and where you were born.
Valerie Shirley 0:23
I am Valerie Shirley. And I was born in (Southside) Chicago, Illinois. And {censored}
so, saying that you're were born in Chicago, Illinois. What? What experiences has that impacted on your
life?
Well, growing up in Chicago, it had good times and bad times. We grew up in the inner city, Chicago and
in a really poor neighborhood. It was really crime ridden, drug ridden. If you didn't have a lot of money,
you couldn't really live anywhere safe in Chicago and my mother was very poor. Growing up in Chicago
was tough taught me to be strong, but I had a very loving mom who protected me and protected my
brothers. Um, I have four brothers and two sisters, one sister on my father's side. So she didn't grow up
with us. But she did grow up in Chicago not too far away from us. My mother protected us and she taught
us how to love and how to keep ourselves safe. So it wasn't always bad.
Aisha Sow
What lessons that you learned from your mom do you think have the biggest impact on your life?
So the biggest impact from my mom, I would say is two things, the gift of literacy, and the gift of
unconditional love. My mother only went to eighth grade. She was born in a time she was born in the Jim
Crow Era. And that was a time where you could easily fall through the cracks for a black person get an
education wasn't that important. nobody really cared if you dropped out of school. So my mom dropped
out of school at a very young age. But she somehow knew it was really important for me to go to school.
And it was really important for me to learn to read, and she taught me how to read at a very young age. I
can remember reading to my mom, at three years old, I would be reading the newspaper to her, and she
would correct my articulation and tell me how to say this sounds and she gave me phonemic awareness.
And it turned me into a person who loved reading. So going to school only till eighth grade. I don't know
how she knew it was so important for me to be in school and be smart and learn how to read but that's
something she gave me a passion for learning and passion for reading. The second thing was
unconditional love. It was like family first, family over everything. And she made sure that she always put
us first even over herself. And when anybody in the family was in trouble, we all bonded together.
Because that's what our mom taught us to bond together to take care of each other. And no matter what it
was like you always love family, no matter what they can go through hard times, things can happen that
seem really bad. And they can make you angry, but you still love them and you still support them no
matter what. So those are the two most important things that my mom gave me. A love for literacy and
unconditional love.
Aisha Sow 3:39
That's amazing. So, knowing that you grew up in Illinois, how did you get to Minnesota?
Valerie Shirley 3:47
Well, that's an interesting story. So I grew up in Chicago, and I had two daughters when I was in my mid
20s. And like I said, I grew up in a really crime infested drug ridden neighborhood. And teen pregnancy
was just off the charts. And just anything that you can imagine that our social ills that happened in
poverty stricken neighborhoods. And I used to tell myself that I had to protect my girls from all of the
negative, negative ways that society could impact them because I had seen too many victims of society.
No matter how hard you worked to raise your kids safely, somehow they were lost to tragedy or teen
pregnancy or substance abuse. And I remember saying that I need to be I need to have my daughters not
be a part of the world. Know about it and understand it but not get lost in it. And at the time, my
children's father explored Minnesota a friend of his had moved to Minnesota, and was telling them how
nice it was and how you don't need a lot of money to live in a safe neighborhood in Minnesota and how
the public schools were so much better than Chicago public schools. So it was actually due to my
children's father that I moved here. I was a student at Northeastern Illinois University at the time, and he
convinced me to move to Minnesota telling me that it was a better place. And even though my roots were
deep in Chicago, and all my family was there, I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. And packed up and moved to
Minnesota and he was right, some much better place to raise kids. It was so much easier for me to protect
my kids here than it was in Chicago.
That was in 1998 when I moved to Minnesota,
Aisha Sow
Wow. That's when my parents came. Was the transition between coming from Illinois to Minnesota a
hard one? Or was it relatively easy in your opinion?
Valerie Shirley
It was relatively easy in my opinion, because it was a nicer place to live. I think the only odd things about
the transition was that it was a little bit of a different culture. Chicago is big city fast living and Minnesota
was kind of small town compared to Chicago, even though it's city you know, and it's urban. But it was
very different. And I remember standing on a bus stop here in Minnesota, and to get on the bus. There
was a very nice straight line in order to get on a bus and that didn't happen in Chicago, you just bum rush
the door in Chicago, and if you do first when they get there, you get off the bus. So there was no order
organization like that. And I can remember having lived here, maybe one or two months, and I was
standing on the bus stop, and I was the only person there. And this guy came up and started talking to me
and he was talking about the weather and baseball. And so I've got my Chicago mentality on and I'm like,
oh, Lord, he's about to rob me or he's about to try to do something wrong. So I strap my purse around my
whole body and put it behind him making sure he can't snatch it. And then I stood and ready stance. So in
case I needed to fight, I was all ready and guarded. And he was just he kept chatting. And I was thinking
to myself, what is this dude up to? I was, you know, not really listening to him. I was just ready for
something to happen. And then he looks up at the bus stop sign and says, oh, the 22 doesn't stop here.
Wait, I'm on the wrong stop. Well, nice chatting with you. I hope you have a great day. And he walks
away. And I'm like, hey, wait, was he really Just being nice to me. And that taught me something about
the difference of the culture. I was like, oh, Minnesota nice. It really is kind of nice, I guess, you know. So
the only transition was being able to let my guard down a little and not know that everybody that
approached me with small talk without the get me because in Chicago, that's a red flag, get ready for
something bad to happen. But other than that, it was, um, it was relatively easy.
I think another difficult transition, I guess was that in Chicago, racism and discrimination is very much
alive. It is everywhere in the United States. But in Chicago, you know, who does not like you? It's very
clear, you know what neighborhoods not to go in. You know, what white people don't like black people.
They're very open and clear about it. In Minnesota. All the white people act like they like you no matter
what. And then behind your back, they do things like get you fired. And, you know, and do things to like
harm your family, you know, maybe not physically but socially and emotionally. So that was a difficult
transition. I thought that so many white people were my friend until things happened like me being
targeted at my work for being myself. And, you know, if I acted too black and I didn't code switch, and so
that was a little bit of a difficult transition, transition, just having to play this political game of knowing
who I can be myself around and who I can't. So other than that, everything was pretty, pretty easy.
Aisha Sow
Um, so just a little background story have, have you in your family been Muslim for your whole life or
was it later in life?
Valerie Shirley
So for me, I became Muslim later in life. I actually became Muslim one year After I moved here, maybe
about one year after I grew up Baptist Christian, and for the most part that Baptist Christian was
something we put on applications because we didn't go to church very often. When I became an adult,
more so when I came about 16, I really wanted to start to explore my religion, which was Christianity at
the time. You know, teenagers have this time of storm and stress and turmoil and you feel like nobody
understands you and just everything's horrible. So I was going through that time, my teenage years, and
my my brother, who is now an ordained Christian minister, I can just remember him saying, you need
God in your life. You need God in your life whenever you you know, whenever you are feeling hopeless
or helpless, just open the Bible and read it. I can remember him telling me that so many times, and he, my
brother, was really my father figure. Our father was not in our lives. And so I looked to my brother and I
really respected him and trusted him. So, and I would do what he said, I would pick up the Bible when I
read it, and lo and behold, my heart would be lightened, and I would feel guided, and I would know what
to do, and I wouldn't feel so hopeless. So I've decided to start going back to church, and, or going to
church because I can only remember going once as a little kid, but I started looking for a church that I
could go to because people, Christians look for a church home. And so it's like, I'm going to find a nice
church I can go to and couldn't find anything that I was really very interested in. Churches would turn me
away because I wore pants or I would find that people were very gossipy and you know, very, like
backstabbing and it was just like, I'm like, these are not believing people. You know? That's how I would
feel like that's not how God fearing people are supposed to act. So what I decided to do was like, I'm just
going to read the Bible from cover to cover, I want to understand it myself, because I would. So I started
reading it. And then I had questions. So I was like, I really need to go back to church because I got to ask
pastors to explain some of this stuff to me that I don't understand. Went back to church and started asking
questions, but I was met with a lot of negativity, they were like, you don't question the Bible. And that's
the devil making you ask all these questions. In retrospect, I think they just didn't know that I answered
them because they weren't like theologians. They weren't like Christian scholars, you know, they were
just ministers or you know, leaders of the church and stuff. So, you know, people would always say, you
need Jesus, that's the devil in you. And so that ran me away from church again, and I was like, You know
what, I'm just going to ask God to help me understand it. And I read the Bible from cover to cover and I
Um, one thing I didn't find was Jesus being crucified. And I always thought that was just the most
horrible story of like, you know, why would God allow Jesus to be crucified? And how is God and Jesus
the same? You know, it was just that whole Trinity always had questions about it and nobody could
explain it. So I read the Bible from cover to cover and that led me to studying other religions. You know,
I was like, You know what, I want to study Judaism and I studied that and then either like, you can't
become Jewish. Unless you were born and went to a Jewish mom, like, okay, can't do that. I studied. I
mean, I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses. I studied Buddhism and Confucianism and I just started to
research all these old religions and one common theme now mind you, I studied everything but Islam.
Why? Because I lived two blocks away from temple number 73. The Nation of Islam and the fruit of
Islam paraded our neighborhood. And I knew them well. I respected them, they protected us, and they
were very respectful. But they were always telling me that the white man was the devil. And they told me
I couldn't eat greens and sweet potatoes, I'm like greens and sweet potatoes is what my mama raised me
on.
I'm not giving up greens and sweet potato you know, so it was really odd so I thought I knew what Islam
was. I didn't know at the time that that was a sect. That was a sect of Islam. I thought that they were you
know, genuinely This is Islam. So I didn't bother to study that because I knew what that was about. And
over, studying all the religions, I found one common theme is that everyone believed in a higher power. It
was all about faith and forgiveness and mind and body and spirit and keeping the body clean, keeping the
heart clean and generosity and I was like, every religion says this So I was like, You know what, I'm not
going to label myself. I'm just a believer. I'm not a Christian. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm not you know, I am a
believer. So I started studying metaphysics. And I thought I had it, you know, I thought I knew what was
going on because I was like, I'm going to become one with the cosmos. And um just so happened that my
first husband took his Shahadah. And I was happy for him. You know, I thought he was like, lost because
I was like, God didn't make the word religion. That's a man made word. So, I was like, you just have to be
a believer. And I was like, okay, you're Muslim huh. Okay? I'm like, I'm happy because he was agnostic
before. I'm like, I'm just happy you believe something. So that's great for you. And, lo and behold, I
moved here to Minnesota with him. And I met a lot of his Muslim friends at the University of Minnesota,
because I entered the University of Minnesota to finish my degree. And I went to what they call I think
it's Islamic Islam Awareness Week now or something like that they have it every spring, but I think it
might have might have been the same thing back then in 1998 or 99. And there was a lecture by a brother
and I remember it was Muhammad in the Bible and Jesus in the Quran and, and that was very interesting
to me because I already read the Bible, from cover to cover. I went to that, and everything that he talked
about what Islam was, was what I believed, and I couldn't deny that this is something that is calling me, I
went home that night, and I had all these weird dreams people chasing me with Bibles telling me, what
are you going to do about this? What are you gonna do? And I was like, I mean, it was like, it was really
odd. And I woke up the next morning and said, I need to become Muslim. And I took my Shahada by
myself, I picked up one of those little pamphlets that said, how to become a Muslim and, oh, take a bath,
so I ran my bath water, you know, make ghusl and said my Shahada. And there it was, I became Muslim
in 1999.
Valerie Shirley
Yeah, so that was a long story.
Aisha Sow
So that kind of piggybacking off of that, seeing that when you came to Minnesota and you learned the
difference between how people in Minnesota act before versus people in Chicago, do you, do you think,
what's it called? Your Muslim identity affected any way that they interacted with you or you were a you
weren't that expressive yet? Yeah.
Valerie Shirley
When I first became Muslim, I really only hung out with Muslims. So I didn't have a lot of connect to,
like just the mainstream community of other religions, because I became Muslim. And I was hanging out
with the Muslims at the university. And then I started teaching at Al-Amal school. So I was working with
Muslims going to school with Muslims living at home at Muslims. Because my husband was Muslim and
our kids were little they were 11 and four, so they automatically became Muslim.
So I didn't notice much interaction from the outside community for a number of years. until I started
working in public schools, when I started teaching in public school districts, then I was very expressive
and I'm very outgoing person. And I'm pretty aggressive actually. So when people would say things, I
would automatically correct them and people always would ask me a lot of questions. So I was always
happy to answer their questions. And so I just spent a lot of time given dawah, but I didn't.
Not a lot.
Just I don't know I think Allah protected me honestly. Because, like all my life, even if I wanted to do
stuff that was bad, somehow Allah pulled me out of it, without me even knowing. I mean, I would try to
go hang out in bad places, and somehow one of my brothers would catch me or something would happen,
and even here in Minnesota, as an adult, I would have friends who were not so savory, but they were kind
of fun, those kind of friends, you know, you shouldn't be with them too much. And I would hang with
people like that sometime and they would just disappear from my life.
Aisha Sow 20:16
Hmm
Valerie Shirley 20:16
They would just move or the circumstances in my life would separate me from them, I'd get a new job or,
you know, we just so I honestly feel like Allah has been just protecting me from too much negative
interaction, if that makes sense.
Aisha Sow 20:33
Let's live a very peaceful life.
Valerie Shirley 20:36
I mean, of course, I've have experienced tragedy just like everybody else. But yeah, Islam gives me the
ability to cope with tragedy. So,
Aisha Sow 20:48
So one quick question, what did you study in school?
Valerie Shirley 20:52
I studied Elementary Education when I first started school. Well, actually my first first starting of school
Way back in 1985. And I studied accounting. But then I got pregnant with my first daughter. And I was
like, Hmm, I better finish up quick so I can get a job and I changed my major to secretarial sciences,
sciences because I already had, like a lot of keyboarding and math classes that you need it for that for
clerical work. And then I went to work for a while. And then I went back to school for elementary
education. And I was an Elementary Ed major to become a teacher, and I was a music education minor.
And then when I came to University of Minnesota transferred here, I went right into the elementary
education program with college education, human development, and I was a music minor.
Aisha Sow 21:48
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 21:49
And I remember being at the masjid and somebody asked me "oh so what are you studying?" I was like,
elementary education and music education. Somebody's whispered, "Isn't that haraam" what you were
like? And so people started whispering, "like I think music is haraam, she shouldn't be studying that".
And so I got this, I got this fear.
And I was like, Oh my god, I don't want to do anything haraam. I'm a new Muslim.
Aisha Sow 22:16
Yeah
Valerie Shirley 22:16
So I just want to be halal that's all I want to be. I want to be right and only do anything that's forbidden.
And, you know, I didn't know a lot back then I changed my major, major in music, and now I kind of
regret it. Because I'm like, you know what? I'll never forget somebody telling me Allah ordered the
destruction of musical instruments. Nobody should be playing music. And I was like, What, really? But
then I thought about it. I was like, if Allah ordered the destruction of musical instruments, guess what,
there would be none.
So it was just really crazy that that impacted me and I changed my major and I graduated with my
bachelor's in elementary education. But I honestly changed it along the way because my son got sick.
Aisha Sow 23:08
Yeah
Valerie Shirley 23:09
He got sick with meningitis and he became deaf, my youngest son, and when he did that, I started taking
sign language in school.
Aisha Sow 23:17
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 23:18
So that's when I fell in love with sign language and realized that I should do something else. And so I
changed my bachelor's from just being elementary education and I went to my counselor and told him I
wanted a bachelor's in individualized study so I could create my own. So I had changed my major like
several times, so I had all these credits from all these crazy places. And I changed it and got element of
bachelor and individualized studies with a focus on deaf education, elementary education and Native
American history in Law.
Aisha Sow 23:54
Wow
Valerie Shirley 23:55
And then after I did that, I went back and got my masters in Deaf Education and started teaching deaf and
hard of hearing children.
Aisha Sow 24:04
Um, what were there any hardships for you when you first started learning how to do sign language?
Valerie Shirley 24:13
Not really. I absolutely fell in love with the language. And the deaf community kind of embraced me
because whenever they found out that I was learning sign language so that I could communicate with my
son. That was a big perk. And I figured out that early on, I my first sign language class I was an hour late
and went to University Minnesota thought the class started is six started at five. She was like my classes
for I was like, Well, I was hoping I can get a magic number. Now mind you, she's deaf and she's talking
to me through an interpreter. And she was like, "No, I'm not giving out any magic numbers" and my eyes
started to water. I'm really emotional. When she, you know, rejected me like that, and my eyes started to
water and she saw my face. And she said, Just sit down, you can stay here for this first class. And so I
went and sat down. And
as I sat down, she said,
"Now I'm, you know, I'm going to tell the interpreter to leave. Does anybody have any questions?" And I
remember thinking to myself, what she can tell the interpreter leave how we going to learn. The
interpreter laughed, and she started teaching us and lo and behold, it's an ASL immersion class, and we all
learned very easily. And I was just like, wow, this is absolutely amazing. I was just so impressed. At the
end of that class. She called me up and she wrote back and forth to me in English and said, "Why do you
want to be in my class?" And I said, "My son is deaf and I want to learn sign language to communicate
with him" and I handed it back to her, her face turned red and her eyes filled up. And she said, This is
wonderful. I'm going to give you a magic number. You are at absolutely going to be in my class. And I
was like, Whoa, like that holds some weight. So every time I met a deaf person, I was like, I have a deaf
son.
And they were like 'Oh my God, that's awesome.' You know, come to find out.
Out of like all the deaf people, all the deaf people in the US, I guess 90% of that population have hearing
parents only 10% of deaf people have deaf parents. So out of that 90% who have hearing parents, only
10% of them learn how to sign and communicate with their kids. So most of the deaf people in the US
who do not have deaf parents are not able to communicate with their families. So that impacted the deaf
community in a way when they see I'm one of the 10% I'm one of the small people that take the time to
learn how to use sign language in order to communicate. So that's, that's pretty heavy for the deaf
community. And, you know, not saying anything bad about that, you know, 90% of hearing parents that
don't learn sign language, there could be anything that impacts them and make them not be able to learn
it, maybe they can't learn and maybe their cognition is not up to it. Maybe they have two or three jobs and
they're single parents, and they're taking care of too many kids or, you know, it could be any reason
keeping you from doing it. But a lot of parents don't learn sign language. So that was, I don't know where
I was going with that point. But I just remembered that that carried a lot of weight in the deaf community.
That's crazy. I never knew that. So how many of your family members know sign language?
Well, my immediate family, all of us, I came home and taught all of my kids sign language, everything
that I would Learn I would come home from class and then teach them what I learned and we learned
together so that they would be able to communicate with their brother. So, yeah, my oldest daughter,
who's now 32. Her first career was American Sign Language Interpreting. She ate, just having a deaf son
really changed the trajectory of our lives and, and all of his other siblings are fluent. And my current
husband is learning to. He's not quite fluent, but he's doing pretty good.
Aisha Sow
Wow, one impact and just change everything and sometimes it can be for the better.
Valerie Shirley
Yep, absolutely.
Aisha Sow
So now that you have a lot of experience in sign language and your family knows and you've been a part
of the deaf community, do you think it's changed your perspective in any way on how you handle things
in your life?
Valerie Shirley
Absolutely. Absolutely. It has changed the way I handle everything in my life.
I when I started becoming involved in the deaf community was really in about 2006 or seven. I met a
close friend of mine who I had known since I had taken my Shahada. She was really one of my teachers.
She really taught me a lot about Islam and she was a very close friend still is. She has two Deaf siblings.
And when I started learning sign language and my son became deaf. I found out that she had two Deaf
siblings. I didn't know that before. And when I found out she had a deaf brother in a deaf Sister, I was
like, Oh my god, I want to meet them. And when I met them, well, I couldn't meet one because he was in
jail. And when I met the sister, she was a really staunch Christian and she was studying to become an
ordained minister. And I was thinking to myself, how does a whole family of Muslims have this Deaf gal
who's a Christian? And I wasn't looking down on them or anything thinking anything bad, I was just like,
wow, how did this happen? Because I didn't know a lot of Muslims who had people who converted in
their family and I knew all Muslim families and everybody was Muslim.
Aisha Sow 30:30
Yeah.
Valerie Shirley 30:32
And so come to find out, they were not able to communicate with her so they were not able to teach her
Islam. So she was able to learn about Christianity because the church had interpreters. So I was like, wow,
I and she was very, she was not as connected to the family. As you know, a family member could be and I
just thought to myself, I don't want that for my son. I want him to be connected to the family. I don't want
him to feel like he needs to go away from us to be able to learn about spirituality and faith. And I just
prayed I was I just asked Allah to find me some deaf Muslims. I was like, I know there's gotta be more
Deaf Muslims somewhere in the world. And sure enough, you know, Allah connected me with so many
deaf Muslims worldwide. I met a deaf man from Ghana. First, I met a deaf lady from Somalia who lived
here. And the deaf guy from Ghana. I actually met him because a friend knew that I was looking for Deaf
Muslims. And she saw these Deaf guys get on stage at the ISNA convention. And they had interpreters
and she was like, Oh my god, I gotta send this to Valerie. And so when she sent me the video, I saw who
was on on stage with him and I knew Abraham Hooper of CAIR Minnesota and I was like I need to
contact Brother Abraham to find out who those Deaf guys are. And I got in contact with them. And man
that just changed everything. I helped them start up the organization, Global Deaf Muslim. And that led
me to starting Minnesota Deaf Muslim community here in Minnesota because I just noticed, I started with
thinking they need access to Islam, they need to be able to understand the Khutbahs, they need to be able
to understand Islamic classes, so they can understand their Deen, and they can feel connected. When I met
so many people, I just realized that there were so many other needs,
Aisha Sow 32:46
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 32:47
you know, without the ability to communicate. They didn't even have access to like natural resources like
maybe you came here for you can't even go fill out a food stamp application because maybe you use
Arabic sign language or you don't you gesture and you lip read in Somali and so you can't communicate
with the ASL interpreters and, you know. So that's how MDMC was born really is to open up an
organization that would help the population of death, who have very limited access, they can't even access
American sign language interpreters. So that's how it kind of started and it's just changed my life because
my life is really all about that now, my life is really just, that's where my passion is now. So it's impacted
my life in every way. Like I eat, sleep, drink, dream, live, the deaf community.
Aisha Sow
So I have one teeny question, How did you incorporate Islamic terms into sign language
Valerie Shirley
So learned from honestly there are a few.
Well, there's one guy in particular who moved here from Yemen. And he knows Arabic sign language.
And so we use Arabic sign language in Arabic sign language. There was always terms for things like
Allah and Alhamdulillah and Masha Allah and all those little terms that we frequently use. SuhanAllah,
He taught me the signs for those things. And I've just incorporated those into American Sign Language.
So I use American Sign Language, but when I sign Arabic words or Islamic terms, I use the sign that I
learned from Arabic sign language its every country has its own sign language. Well, not every country I
don't think Somalia has a sign language but most countries around the world have sign language and just
like English is very different from Italian. American Sign Language is very different from Arabic sign
language and it's very different from Italian sign language and Turkish sign language. So we just use
Arabic signs and incorporate it to american sign.
Aisha Sow
So um seeing that the Muslim community here in Minnesota is so diverse. And so you'll have so many
different people and many of them some of them happen to be deaf, how are you able to efficiently
communicate with different people with different cultures?
Well, it it can be difficult sometimes. But there are some deaf here that are fluent in American Sign
Language and also fluent in Arabic sign language. So we use them to help us facilitate communication
among people who don't know about American Sign Language. And most of the people that come here
from other countries, they eventually start to learn American Sign Language and, and then they become,
you know, trilingual as they normally have like their native tongue from their country, they probably lip
read in that language. And then they sign Arabic sign language and and they start learning American Sign
Language here. But we use other deaf to facilitate communication who will know the sign language that
the deaf person uses?
Aisha Sow 36:30
So with the startup of MDMC, were there any struggles that came with it or?
Valerie Shirley 36:40
The struggles are still there. Yes, there have been so many struggles, um, it's
it's really, you know, annual sustainability is always a struggle just financially. It's a struggle keeping the
organization afloat. But internally, unfortunately, there are divisions in the community. And not
everybody in the community wants to support MDMC and, and then there was gossip that flew around
and, and then, you know, conflicts in the community and, you know, then the reputation of MDMC was
damaged and now it's trying to, you know, rebuild its reputation. And so yeah, there have been struggles
for a long time. But because I'm passionate about ensuring the success of this organization, mainly
because my son who's deaf and he's also cognitively delayed, so he's considered Deaf plus. And so with
his additional cognitive disability, that's like a double whammy for him. It's going to be very difficult for
him to Maintain gainful employment. And I want there to be an organization that will support people like
him and help people like him exceed their potential, you know, meet and exceed their true potential
because he can do so much. But because he cannot read and write, his options are very limited. So I'm
passionate about ensuring the success of this organization so that it can serve people just like my son.
Aisha Sow
So what are some programs that you guys have? Because I know the sheroes that you did for PBS, I
believe. I think you talked about something about an alternative literacy program.
Yeah, alternative literacy support is one of the biggest things that we do. Because English is a barrier for
many deaf, not just the deaf immigrants. You know, it's really difficult to learn a language that you cannot
hear.
Aisha Sow 39:06
Yeah.
Valerie Shirley 39:07
So learning English and being able to comprehend it at high levels can be really difficult. So a lotta
individuals in the deaf community will get maybe letters from Social Security or immigration or just from
anywhere, you know, the english is very high level and difficult for them to understand. So what they can
do is they can bring their paperwork to MDMC they set up an appointment for literacy support, and we
will literally read the paperwork or the application or whatever it is for them in ASL. We read it to them
inside to help them comprehend it in their own language. And if it happens to be an application or
something that they need to fill out, we will ask them the questions in sign language and They can reply
to us inside. And we will script it in English and then we stamp it saying that this forum was filled out
using literacy support from MDMC. So that's one of the things we do. And we offers driver's education
when we can, like now we're unable to like offer any services because we've, you know, it's a volunteer
board, and we just been so busy but we've offered drivers and we offered interpreters at Friday prayer.
We offer free interpreting services for deaf individuals who are not able to afford it like if they need an
interpreter for a personal reason that is not government paid. Like if a deaf person goes to the doctor the
federal government requires for the doctor to provide an interpreter or insurance to pay for that. They go
to court or something like that. They are legally, you know, required to be provided with an interpreter.
But there's a lot of situations that organizations don't have to provide them with an interpreter. Like for
example, if they go somewhere to buy a car, the people that are selling them the car don't have to provide
them with an interpreter legally. And so there's so many places. And the Deaf, like I said before, often
can't communicate with their family. So maybe there's a family reunion or family dinner and they'd really
like to chat with people so they can get a free interpreter for two hour blocks to help them access
communication. And we provide interpreting services at community events. We paid interpreting services
where organizations can hire interpreters from MDMC to give deaf access. Yeah, I think that's about
sums it up.
Aisha Sow
Isn't it hard to find interpreters through MDMC or..?
Valerie Shirley
you know it is not we actually have a pool of about 20 interpreters that we can pull from. We have offered
trainings on Muslim sides. And so we have interpreters who have knowledge of Arabic sign language and
American Sign Language, at least to the level where they can interpret for the Muslims at Muslim events.
And so it has not been hard for us to find interpreters. Back in the day when MDMC was first starting in
2013, I was really the only person but as we started to provide trainings and workshops and more people
got to know about us. More people have been willing to work with us.
Aisha Sow
So what are some future plans that the MDMC has?
Valerie Shirley
Well future plans for MDMC, I and the board had been talking about how we can turn MDMC into a self
sustaining organization that has businesses that are Deaf lit, Deaf employed and Deaf run. We know that
English is a barrier, and that for almost every job in America, you need to fill out a job application in
English you need to be able to read and write in English. We know notice that there's only one thing that
is not a barrier is becoming an entrepreneur. So we hope to train the Deaf, Deaf plus, Deaf and those who
are hard hearing on how to become entrepreneurs and business owners and we will use a variety of Deaf
employees. To run the organization with a few hearing employees who are there to facilitate in access to
English and communication with hearing people, and to provide literacy support, so we hope to open
businesses and have the deaf employ themselves.
Aisha Sow
Are you guys going to be working with any other deaf organizations here in Minnesota and maybe even
nationwide?
Valerie Shirley
We hope to we hope to we do partner now with organizations locally who serve the Deaf and Hard
community deaf and hard hearing community. So we Yeah, we partner with smaller nonprofit
organizations who are doing things similarly to us. And yeah, we plan on continuing to do that and
branching out even more.
Aisha Sow
So what are some future plans that you have for yourself?
Valerie Shirley 44:56
Well, some future plans I have to myself so I'm back in school right now I'm in Educational Leadership. I
am currently getting my special ed directors license and K 12 principal license. So I plan to probably go
into administrative, you know, into an administrator position in the public school system. And I hope to
after I get my sped director license and my principal license, I hope to go ahead and get my
Superintendent license. So maybe I will go ahead and be somebody's superintendent. We don't know
maybe St. Paul public schools hopefully.
Aisha Sow 45:41
You're gonna be busy.
Valerie Shirley
I'm going to be very busy. You know, it's either that or MDMC is going to have great success. I pray to
Allah. And then I can just manage MDMC and be the executive director of MDMC and still follow my
passion working with the deaf community, but still be able to pay the bills. That's right now MDMC is not
self sustaining.
Aisha Sow
So knowing that you have so many life experiences now at this point in your life, what is I guess maybe
it's a two part question. Um, what do you say is like keeping you up and keeping you going and what is
the one favorite moment that you've had from all the work that you've done?
Valerie Shirley
Well, what's keeping me up and keeping me going? It's definitely my kids, my family and the kids that I
work for and St. Paul public schools. Kids deserve to have the best lives they can possibly have and
knowing that I can help kids really keeps me going.
I think, a favorite moment that I have, there's so many but I just have to say a recent one, my, my deaf son
turned 18 this April. And I promised that I would take him to all the deaf adult functions that happened. It
was like he's a big boy now I'm going to take him everywhere with me and we just went to a birthday
party of one of our friends, and they had bowling and food and it was just a really a lot of fun. And my
son who is very quiet and has a lot of anxiety. I watched him navigate that room of deaf adults and go
chat with them and ask them to take selfies with him and, you know, just socializing in a way that I've
never seen him socializing before. So that's that's one of my favorite moments seeing my son as an adult
actually having people that he can communicate with people who love him and people who I trust that he
will be able to just build community with.
Valerie Shirley
Favorite for me.
Aisha Sow 48:19
Thank you so much sister Valerie for coming in here today and your story was so awesome and beautiful.
So, um, I hope the best for you in the future that you have so much success and everything that you want
to do with MDMC and anything in your personal life. Thank you so much again.
Valerie Shirley 48:39
Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Amran Ali 0:03
Today is Monday, November 25. My name is Amran Ali. This interview is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you can introduce yourself
to the recording and say when and where you were born.
Siham Isse 0:18
Hi, my name is Siham.
I was born in Kenya i... Show more
Amran Ali 0:03
Today is Monday, November 25. My name is Amran Ali. This interview is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you can introduce yourself
to the recording and say when and where you were born.
Siham Isse 0:18
Hi, my name is Siham.
I was born in Kenya in 2000. March 23 2000. Yeah.
Amran Ali 0:32
Thank you. To begin, can you describe how life was for you growing up in Kenya?
Siham Isse 0:38
Yes. So it all started when I was born.
I was born and Maria Stomm Hospital in a little tiny. Not a suburb is the hood. But
it's like a little tiny suburb of Nairobi, Kenya. And yeah, I lived in that
neighborhood until 2005 when I moved to America, but life in Kenya was pretty
simple. I just lived in a one bedroom house with my mom and my aunt who's
technically her friend. But um, yeah, we just lived in a one bedroom with one
bathroom. And then I went to I think I did preschool there, but it didn't seem like
preschool because I already knew how to read and I was doing multiplication. But
um, yeah, it was just super advanced. And we wear uniforms and I felt like
everybody was way more mature than preschool. Because for a while, I thought that I
did first grade in Kenya, but I did not it was just preschool. But yeah, I used to
go to school. And then after school, I would go to dugsi, which is like, like a
school where you learn about the holy book in Islam, and you memorize it and stuff.
Yeah. And I used to go to dugsi and I used to walk everywhere by myself. It was me
and my friend, like my friend was my neighbor. We used to walk together to school,
we used walk together to dugsi even though I was literally four years old. I just
had a lot of freedom, and not really freedom but just because it was a safer
environment. My mom was way more okay with me going out by myself like walking to
people's houses by myself than she ever was with me here in America like even now
I'm like 19 she's still like checks up on me like where you going? Who are you
going with? Bla bla bla. So just because I think Kenya was way safer back then at
least. Um, but yeah, it was just a simple life as all my family was there within
walking distance from my house and everything. I dont know I feel like I was really
happy I had a happy childhood. You know, nothing nothing ever serious ever happened
to me. But and then yeah, I came to America in 2005.
Amran Ali
Nice.
2:32
Awesome.
And then quick, what would you say you identify as?
Siham Isse 2:40
Um, I'm a Somali, Somali, Muslim, Woman. Yeah.
Amran Ali 2:47
Okay, um, Can you recall any specific events from like your childhood that you
would say shaped how you approach the world. It can be in general or more specific
to you being a Somali Muslim woman.
Siham Isse
Um, so
3:01
yeah, so any
Well, I don't really talk about this a lot, but I am technically an orphan. But
it's not something I feel like it did shape me in some ways, but not in a not in
such a way that people think that it would shape you. Just because I never felt
like I didn't have parents or family. I was officially adopted by my aunt in 2014.
But she she's only she's only mother that I know. I never knew another mother or
father honestly. She raised me because my mother died when I was 10 months. So from
then on, my aunt has been the one to raise me take care of me and, you know, give
me a life. So she's my mom. I've never referred to her as my aunt or you know
anything other than my mother. So yeah, just sometimes I tell people that they're
just really shocked. And the fact that it's not a big deal to me. I think it would
have been a big deal. You know, I, I'd grown up with a mother and father and then
you know, they were taken from me and I have to move from place to place and
everything, but I'm still with my biological family. My aunt is my mother's
biological sister. I don't know who my dad is. I don't know his family. Anything
about that. So yeah, I'm very connected to my mom... to my mother's side of the
family, my cousins, my aunt's my uncle's, everything like that. We lived together
in Kenya. Or, I mean, we lived next to each other in Kenya. And then when I moved
to America in 2005 they moved shortly after just a couple months after we did.
We're very connected, I feel like my family's a really big part of who I am and my
identity. And so I think the fact that I was adopted by somebody who was in my
family who I share blood with, definitely impacted how, you know,
I see my orphanage and
I'm putting quotes around orphanage.
Yeah, but being adopted by her officially 2004.. in 2014 was really interesting
because I feel like officially that now that she was my mother, people started
seeing her as my mother. Because all the other documents and everything that we
ever filled out, she's my legal guardian. She was never, you know, parent, but
then when she adopted me it was like officially Who was your parent? You know, my
mom, even though she was always my mom so yeah.
Amran Ali 5:30
Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Yeah. So now, do you want to tell me about your transition? Because I know you were
talking about how you moved to the United States in 2005. So just talk about your
transition from Kenya to the United States?
Unknown Speaker 5:47
Yeah, of course. Um, so it, it was a big transition. Obviously, there's a lot of
differences in terms of schooling and just the culture in Kenya and in America. So
I was 5. I think it was November 2005. So it was already pretty well to the school
year. And when I came, we didn't really have a place to live. So we just stayed in
my, my aunt's basement who already lived here. She lived here for a couple of
years. Yeah, so we stayed in her basement, it was just me and my mom... me, my mom
and my grandma. And my younger cousin and my older cousin, all of us came together
in like one flight and one, you know, one migration basically. And I think one
thing that I distinctly remember is the fact that the first place in America that I
was was New York, and we were only there for like six or seven hours, but I
remember the smell. It was so disgusting.
Siham Isse 6:40
It smelled terrible.
When we got off the... when we got out of the air um the airport, we had to go
sleep in a hotel for a couple of hours. And I just remember it smelled like garbage
and dirt and just like unwashed people. And it was just super disgusting. And my
first thing that I found out about America was that it smelled different and I
immediately wanted to go back. Um, but I remember the food was really interesting
because I remember we had philly cheese steaks in the airport. And then my younger
cousin just threw up all over the place like projectile vomited all over my mom.
And some of it got on me too. So in my green card picture, which they took at the
airport, I have like a little bit of vomit on my shoulder and it's disgusting every
time I look at it. It's just so funny because I remember what it smelled like. I
remember how good the sandwich was. And then I remembered how just disgusted I was
in general because of my cousin. So after that, we came to Minnesota, and we were
staying with my aunt in her basement and then in January, I'm not sure about the
details, but like we were being helped by this church slash government funding
thing. And they found us an apartment. It was definitely government housing, but it
was a small apartment in East St. Paul. And
sometimes I think back on it, and it
was just such a wonderful experience because it was so small, but I loved it so
much. And it was in such a terrible neighborhood. Like it was in the ghetto ghetto
ghetto. And I remember, First or kindergarten, I went to Bruce elemento Elementary
School, which I think was one of the worst schools I've ever been to in terms of
education. I couldn't tell you what I learned in first and second are in
kindergarten and first grade. And I'm just so thankful that the fact that I knew
how to read because I think I would have been held back if I didn't know how to
read and I went to that school because it was terrible. Yeah, It was just a lot
going on. But I started kindergarten in January. And I was used to school in Kenya.
So I expected to have a uniform and you know, strict rules and stuff, but there
wasn't any. And I Remember what I was writing on the first day that I went to
school with the blue suede tracksuit to like, you know, those those baby fat
tracksuits. It's like the velvet ones and stuff kind of. I was wearing that and I
went to school and I was introduced to my teacher, and she was so nice. Her name
was Miss Sininger. She was so sweet. She kept calling me sweetie and honey and you
know, the class was fun. Like it was not what I was used to at all. There was no
you know, ruler that was being threatened at me.There was no anything. Nobody was
yelling at me. Nobody was screaming at me. We had snack time and naptime and all
this stuff like the classroom was pink. And it was just so confusing to me. But the
interesting thing was that I didn't talk like the first, yeah, I didn't talk at all
in kindergarten. I did not a single word to anybody. My teacher asked me my name.
And I think I whispered it to her. And that was the only thing that I said from
January to May, and half of June basically, um, and so they put me in the ELL class
because they thought that I didn't know how to speak. I think they thought that I
just didn't know how to speak English. But English is my first language. Because
um, you know, I think a lot of people don't know about Kenya that everybody speaks
English in Kenya. Obviously, Swahili is the first language but English is second
and that's what they teach you in schools. And I didn't have an accent or anything.
I was just too scared to talk to anybody. Because I like people had already called
me so many names. Like they said, Oh my god, you're stinky Africa and bla bla bla
all this stuff. Because my teacher made the mistake of telling them that I was
Fresh Off the Boat.
She said she's hot off the press. I remember exactly what she said. She's hot off
the press
straight from Africa. And I was like, oh my goodness and all these like little
white kids were just like, what the hell is wrong with you? You don't know how to
speak any English. So I didn't speak um and then but I was still smart You know,
um, I didn't know that you weren't supposed to know how to read when you're five
years old and you know, do multiplication and stuff, but I'm so grateful because I
would have been held back in second grade. Definitely, if I had just come without
knowing how to read. Um, but yeah, and then first grade, I was still at the same
school. Um, I first grade is honestly a blur. I just remember. At the end of the
year, I got expelled from that school because of this huge fight on the bus because
of this misunderstanding between me and this other girl. I don't remember. I think
her name was like Aaliyah or something like that. We used to get off on the same
bus stop. And one day she just out of nowhere. It was May literally the last two
weeks of school and then she just turned around and looked at me. She goes hey you.
And I was like Oh are you talking to me and She's like, Yeah, but apparently she
was talking to the girl behind me. But she said, Yeah, you stole my boyfriend or
something like that? And mind you we are in first grade. And I don't know what a
boyfriend is. I don't know anything about that. She was like, Oh, you stole
Christian from me, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember telling her to shut up and
leave me alone. And then I forgot that she had a lot of older brothers and a lot of
older sisters. So I got beat up on the bus basically. I got my ass beat on that
bus. Yeah, and I just remember like, I was sitting on the aisle seat and there was
these kids getting on the bus and they would just punch me in the shoulder every
time they pass me. And it was just so weird. But like, I remember not being able to
defend myself or something. I don't know. I just remember going to school the next
day and the principal telling me not to come back. And all this stuff. It was just
so confusing to me. I should probably ask my mom about that honestly. Because it
doesn't make sense for me to be expelled because I was ...I was the victim. I mean,
at least that's how I remember it. But yeah, and then that summer, my mom
transferred me to a different school. I went to Hancock Hamline elementary school,
I think It's just called Hamlin elementary now, but I went there between, you know,
ages, not ages. grades. Second to fourth grade, so just two years, I think. But
that school I thankfully didn't have that many traumatic experiences there, you
know, just regular elementary trauma. But yeah, and I think just a lot of things,
school is the only thing that I can remember being different, um, because I didn't
really do much outside of school like as a as a five, six year old, I was not doing
anything else except going to school and going home. And my whole life was pretty
much the same, except now I just, I, my grandma lived with us. And my mom was at
work all the time. She worked at Marshall fields, which is now Macy's, she worked
at Rosedale mall, and she would be at work when I or she would put me on the bus to
go to school, but then she wouldn't be there when I got back. And so my grandmother
allowed me to watch disney channel and like all these like Comedy Central, and BBC
and all these things that I don't think I was supposed to be watching. But um,
yeah, my mom would get home and they would shut off the TV and be like Oh, she was
doing homework this whole time bla bla bla. And, yeah, I got to watch a lot of
movies that I wasn't supposed to be watching. But I remember that every Friday or
Saturday, me and my mom would go to the mall together. And we would watch a movie
together or we would just hang out and you know, eat and stuff. And I would
basically tell her about the week, and I was talking to her about it recently, she
just kind of remembered she was just talking about how she wished she was home more
during that time, because I wasn't really getting into anything bad. But I think
having her in my life in that moment probably would have been a positive
experience. Because I had nothing but free time. So I was getting into fights with
like the neighborhood kids and stuff and like having boyfriends at school at 10
years old or nine years old, which, you know, now that I think about it wasn't a
good thing, but being exposed to like public school and things like that. That's
kind of what you learn. And so um like, obviously, we're Muslim, so she used to
hate that. I think one time she found a letter in my backpack. That was from me to
my boyfriend, Henry.. Henry Cortez.
He was so cute I was honestly in love with him, but I was breaking up with him
because I like I told him like he said something about me. I honestly don't
remember. But I remembered that I had a I had a letter in my backpack, and I
crumpled it up because I was going to give it to him, but I didn't want her to find
it. And they said, Dear stupid Henry, I'm breaking up with you, because you're dumb
or something like that. And instead of being like, love Siham, I was like, hate
siham, at the end. And then my mom was like, What the hell is this? And I was like,
Oh, it's not bad. You see that I'm breaking up with him and she's like, you
shouldn't have had a boyfriend in the first place and all this stuff. So I think
that that kind of struck something in her because she ended up enrolling me in a
private school after that. She enrolled me in a private muslim school after that,
and that's where I spent like, a majority of my like preteen years, so it was from
fifth to eighth grade. So I feel like that's really big development years. So I
think people who were in that environment definitely developed differently than
people who went to public schools or, you know, even charter schools. Because I
wasn't exposed to any other religions accept Islam. So we had like my schedule, we
had Arabic class, we had Quran Class, we had Islamic Studies class, we had prayer
time. And like all of this stuff that was very Islam focused. So I didn't really
know anything else I didn't know about Christianity. I didn't know about any other
religions or lack of religions that existed. And so I feel like that really shaped
me into the person that I am today, because for a long time, I was sort of
sheltered but
at the same time, over sexualized because I wasn't able to talk to boys or anything
like that, even if it was like in a very innocent manner, because, honestly, at
that point I wasn't really thinking of boyfriends or anything. I was just trying to
be like a regular middle school kid just tryna have friends who weren't just girls.
And so I remember my teacher called me a whore. One day, just straight up, called
me a whore and I was in I was 17. I think I was 13 or 12 or 13. And because I had
asked this boy for a pencil, because he used to make us that boy, girl, boy girl,
so we wouldn't talk to each other. So we would talk to our friends. But I was very
social person. So I was like, hey, do you have a pencil because we're about to take
a test and all this stuff. And he was like, Siham leave the classroom right now.
And I was like, What are you? What did I do? And he was like, you're being a whore.
Like, at that point, I was like, Okay, I'll leave the class. But I told my mom that
he called me a whore and she was really upset. And I was like, Hey, I guess I was
acting
whorish. But, um, yeah, so that school definitely shaped my views of like how men
and women should interact. And the answer to that was we shouldn't interact. And
yeah, I think it was just really interesting. So it was a very Islam focus school.
All I learned about was like islam like my religion, and I was just surrounded by
people who were like me, and who looked like me, basically. So um, I, I don't know.
I mean, maybe to other people that could have really shaped their world views which
it did shape mine a little bit, but I wasn't opposed to having friends who weren't
Muslim or, you know, anything like that. So because I went to a public high school,
the only thing that was just different The only thing that shocked me was that like
guys and girls could hug each other. So I think I had like one friend who was a guy
and there's just because I was nice to him and stuff. And then one day, he was
like, he see him he hugged me and I just froze. Like, I was just like, What the
hell are you doing? You're not gonna touch me. Somebody's gonna come out and call
me a whore and all this stuff. And I was gonna be in so much trouble. But um, I
mean, it was it was fine. Obviously, I didn't get struck by lightning or anything,
but I definitely don't. I'm not as free with the opposite gender as some other
people might be. I have like boundaries, very strict boundaries that you know, that
I that I make people adhere to, just because of going just because I went to a
Muslim school. A Middle School, and I'm glad that I did. Because I was very easily
influenced. So I could be doing crack now honestly.
If went to a public Middle School, I don't know where I would be, I think jail.
Um, but yeah, so I think that definitely, my schooling definitely influenced who I
am today, my identity as a Muslim. It influenced it in the sense that it's not a
huge part of my identity, because for a long time, everybody shared that identity.
So it's not something that we talked about. It was just something that existed. We
were Muslim, we wore hijabs, we learned about Islam. That was just my life. That
was just my reality. And then when I went to public school, it was still my
reality, because I went to a predominantly Somali public school, like there was a
lot of Somali girls, a lot of Muslim girls, and it was just the same as you know,
what I was used to. But um, I just had friends that were like different races that
were different religions and ethnicities and stuff. So it still wasn't a huge part
of my identity. Because many people were familiar with it. I didn't have to explain
it to anybody. The only time I ever had to explain what I was wearing on my head
was probably second grade like elementary where somebody was like hey, is that a
towel on your head, like, do you shower with that? And it's actually so interesting
because literally, I was at work on Saturday, I worked at Target and this girl My
coworker asked me, She said, I don't want to be rude anything. I don't want to
offend you. But like, I just want to know. Why do you wear that? Like, when you go
home, do you still wear it? Like, do you take it off ever? Like, do you shower with
it and It was just coming from a good place, but like she's just dumb like, how are
you in 2019, you still don't know that, like, you have these questions you can ask
me? Well, you know, but um, I have to work with her. So I didn't want to be rude.
So I was just like, Oh, yeah, whatever. I don't wear it at home. She's like, so I
just have another follow up question. Do you wear this for your husband? I was
like, I'm not married Julie. like, Oh, well, it's just like, because your husband
is the only one who's allowed to see your hair. Right? I said, That's not true.
Like, well, that's what my mom told me
because her mom's half Arab. Like she's half Saudi Arabia.
Yeah. And I was like, well, that's cultural because her mom was taught that like
her husband is the only one who could see her hair or she's saving her beauty for
her husband, which I that's not the truth at all. I'm doing this for God. It's my
relationship with God and just to be modest and to be respectful to my religion,
because wearing a hijab religion makes me not do crazy things because I'm
representing my religion. Basically, I'm visibly Muslim. So I don't want to give
the wrong impression, which is something that I just have like in my head at all
times. I think every Muslim girl who, you know, people who are visibly Muslim, they
always have that in the back of their head like that I'm representing my religion
right now. So I shouldn't be doing anything crazy, but a lot of people don't. It's
a very interesting balance. But ya no, being Muslim was never like a huge part of
my identity just because everybody else was, and it's still not a huge part of my
identity. I like Muslim. I'm Muslim first, then I'm Somali. But um, I think being
Somali is like my number one identity. I think. It's my culture, my heritage, like
my people, my blood, all that stuff. I think that's like, even at the beginning of
this. I said, I'm a Somali Muslim woman so. Yeah. I'm out of breath.
Amran Ali 20:58
Awesome. Wow. Very powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow. So let's talk
family dynamics. Of course, you're a lot older than you were when you lived in
Kenya, the culture in the United States being like, probably completely different
than that of Kenya is so and you're also from a practicing Muslim household all
that. How would you say like, How have your experiences been navigating your, like
teenage years with everything in the United States, but also still adhering to what
your family expects?
Siham Isse 21:35
That's a great question.
So I don't think that being a teenager in America really impacted me as much just
because like I said, I was at a muslim school. So what my friends were doing was
what my mom told me that I should be doing anyway. So I there wasn't really any
clashes. It's not like oh, you know, I had white girlfriends who were going out
partying and you know, smoking and drinking and you know, having sex and all this
stuff, and I was just at home reading Quran and I really wanted to be out there
doing stuff with them. But it was before I went to a muslim school so everybody was
doing the same thing like, we like the most that we would go out we would go to the
mall and stuff like, like just halal activites, but I didn't feel like I was
missing out on anything. The only time I felt like I was missing out was when I
watched movies and stuff and like TV and it's like, oh, I'm 16 and I should be
dating and all this stuff. Like, that's never something that I like, that I feel
jealous or envious of. But definitely, I think I think like I said, if I was at a
public school, I would definitely feel like I would have a different personality. I
don't think I would be the same place that I am right now. Hopefully I would be but
you know, I'm just thankful for the experience that I had because I didn't feel
like I was missing out on anything because everybody was doing the same thing.
There was no clash between my school personality and my home personality. I wasn't
one of those people that went to school it took my job off and then put it back at
home which is a lot of people. You know, they struggled with that because they felt
like they didn't fit in because of their environment. But my environment was
wearing a hijab. If I didn't wear hijab to school, that is when I would be like the
like, what the hell is going on with this girl so weird. She's not wearing a hijab
at school. So I think definitely that played a huge part in you know, being me
being a teenager, I still had crushes and stuff, but I was super ashamed and I'm
like, Oh, they were something that you push down deep in your heart you don't tell
anybody about it. You don't even tell yourself that you have feelings for this
person. You're not supposed to like them otherwise you can be called a whore. But
everybody still had crushes and still whispered about them and still talked about
them but they were very shameful and even now I have trouble with coming to terms
with the fact that if I have feelings for somebody I'm never going to tell them.
I'm never going to act on them, just because I'm still afraid that I'm going to be
called a whore. But I remember distinctly this one boy that I did have a crush on
him, but nobody knew that at the time, but somebody just spread this rumor because
I was good friends with him. He's the one who actually asked for the pencil. I got
called a whore over him and then I developed feelings after because I was like Hey
if i'm being treated like whore might as well act like one.
I think um Yes. So anyway I asked him for a pencil bla bla bla
And we used to sit next to each other in my civics class, So I did develop a crush
on him because hes a sweet guy. He's so cute. You know, so nice, super funny, blah,
blah, blah. But I didn't tell anybody. Then one day it was Valentine's Day. I
didn't come to school because I was sick And then I came to school on February 15th
at like, 7:50 in the morning, I was going to the cafeteria and my friend came up to
me, she was
like, oh my god Siham. Is it true? Blah blah blah. I'm like what are you talking
about? What is true? And she goes
Oh, you put a lot. You put a note in Osmans locker that said, you were you were in
love with him and something like I was like, What the hell? I wasn't even at school
yesterday. Who's lying on my name? Blah Blah Blah.
And then she told me she said "Oh ibrahim said that", so I found ibrahim and I
was like, Hey, did you tell people that I have a crush on Osman and he was like,
um, what and like, he didn't even answer before I took my shoe off and I hit him
with it. I hit him straight across the face with my shoe in front of everybody in
the cafeteria and I didn't even make it to first period before I was sent home. I
was obviously suspended. I was suspended for two days. And then I came back to
school and I was like, Okay, so this is what happens if you have a crush on. You
beat people up and you get suspended so this is never something that you could ever
do again. So yeah, definitely I'm not open with my feelings, if they're romantic
towards somebody, and I think that's something that I'm gonna have to work on.
Because I don't think I'm going to be able to get married to somebody if I can't
admit my feelings to them.
probably be like, 10 years into marriage and be like I think I like you.
I think I have a crush on you. But yeah, no, definitely. My teen years were
Full of shame.
Amran Ali 25:36
Wow. So just being imaginative here. Say it were up to you. Would you have stayed
and continued your life in Kenya and seeing like your experiences here in the
United States versus out of Kenya? Would you have also chosen chosen to move out to
the United States and start a life here?
Siham Isse 25:56
Yeah, um, I definitely would have chosen to move out to United States, I am really
happy with my life here. My, my family came here because of the opportunity and,
you know, for the for the resources and opportunities, yes, for the opportunities.
Because in Kenya, like you have to pay for school you have to pay for health
insurance. And honestly, that's kind of where America is going to anyway. But
that's a different story. But ya no, any type of school there's no such thing as
public school or government housing or anything like that in Kenya, so you had to
have money in order to survive, which we didn't have any money. So um, I actually
went back to Kenya last summer and it was a wonderful experience. I loved it. I had
so much fun. It's so nice seeing, you know, where I grew up, where I went to
school, where I was born, I got to see the hospital that I was born in, but it's an
abortion clinics. And I'm pretty sure it was an abortion clinic when I was born.
But um, I asked my mom about it, she was like, hey, it doesn't matter where you
were born.
So, yeah, I still need to talk to her about that. But um, yeah, I think it was just
a great experience. But that's because I had money. And I was there on vacation and
I was there for fun. But I don't think that I could have a life there. I mean, I
could be happy with my life if that was the only thing that I know that I had
known. But what I know now, I don't think that I would have been happy, as happy as
I am here. Because my cousins, my younger cousins moved to Kenya and they're
miserable. But their mom just packed up and packed up and decided to move back to
Kenya. And but they moved back, they moved back to America a couple months ago,
because it was too expensive, especially with 10 Kids 10 kids, that you have to pay
for their schooling, you have to pay for their clothes, their food, their health
insurance, blah, blah, blah. So it's definitely not a viable living place, in my
opinion, if you were as low income as I was, and basically still am.
Amran Ali 27:44
Cool. Um, so now, you being a sophomore here at Augsburg. What are your plans for
the future?
Siham Isse 27:52
I hate that question so much. But um, I mean, my goal is hopefully is to get a PhD
in psychology. I'm a I'm a clinical psychology major right now. And yeah, I just
want to be a professor at a university. Because I love teaching and I love
connecting with people, but I couldn't do high school because it's stressful. And
you're basically not your own boss. You know, I feel like definitely faculty, they
have, you know, rules to adhere to as well. But it's more flexible, you have a more
open schedule, and you have you, you're the one who decides how much homework you
have to give. So you're giving out homework, but you're also having to grade it. So
if you don't give them homework, you don't have homework to grade. Um, but no, I
think I've had a lot of good experiences with my teachers, you know, they shaped me
in a lot of ways and having good relationships with them, inspired me to have like,
I had a really good relationship with my high school English teacher, and she told
me about all these scholarships, and she's the one who told me to apply to Augsburg
and, you know, she had a big, she a very large impact in my life, especially as a
first generation immigrant and also the oldest, I didn't have anybody to ask about
anything so huge. She was kind of my friend and that she was kind of my, like my
older sister, but like it was a very professional relationships. But I still talk
to her to this day, I love giving her life updates, because she's so proud of me
and I want to be that person. For other people, I want to be that person for
students, because people don't really realize how much power a teacher has. A
teacher has the power to discourage you from something and that'll just put your
life on a completely different path. But a teacher also has ability to nourish you
and to, you know, inspire you and and to push you and to motivate you to do great
things because teachers see potential in you that you don't see in yourself. And so
I definitely want to be that person for other people. Yeah. And so that's my goal
is I also want to go into counseling too, because I feel like mental illness in the
Somali community and muslim community is very stigmatized, and, you know, people
are really afraid to seek help. And I think it's just because they don't see people
like them in those fields. So um, a lot of people think therapy is for white
people. It's like a white People thing like only white people have time to go pay
somebody to listen to their problems, but a lot of people, especially being
immigrants, there's a lot of trauma that has to do with being an immigrant. And
there's a lot of like, an A lot of our elders have PTSD from the war and you know,
having to be ripped away from their homeland and their country, and you know, have
to move to a brand new place. So I think that if there was more Somali people in
the field, I think
that would be a really good thing.
Yeah, so I think those are my goals. And I just love psychology, it's so
interesting. And it has such a big purpose and like a meaning in terms of how
people can utilize it, and how it can help people and how it can basically help the
world because if you don't, if your mind is not right, you're gonna fuck somebody
else's life up. Like you're gonna mess somebody else's life up like your children,
like if you're not okay, your children are not going to be okay. And then their
children are not going to be okay. It's just going to be a vicious cycle. So, yeah.
Amran Ali 30:57
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
I'd like to follow up since you do have a very like cut clear, concise goals and
you sound very motivated to reach these goals. But with with growing up here,
United States, would you say you've had barriers like facing discrimination due to
your identity being Somali Muslim and a woman? Would you say there were any times
where you've been discriminated against? Or belittled?
Siham Isse 31:28
Yes, of course.
Unfortunately, that's something that a lot of people have to deal with, especially
being like a triple minority, basically, like you're black, you're Muslim, and
you're a woman on top of that. So like, there's so much that you have to face. Um,
thankfully, I haven't had too many experiences. Just because I've had a really good
support system like my mom. My mom always knows when to get in the way of something
like if somebody is trying to belittle me, she will always check that my mom has
always empowered me from the beginning. So even though people have tried to make me
feel belittled, and inferior I've never felt that way. But I think a big time was
just when my teachers in high school so I ended up going to Roseville after going
to Fridley for one year and Roseville, Roseville area high school is a
predominantly white school there was only white teachers and staff and faculty and
all that stuff like the only people of color were the ones who are dealing with
discipline and sports, which honestly has a lot to say about the school district in
general. But all the all the counselors were white too. So they were the ones who
were telling you what classes to take and what you need to take in order to
succeed. But a lot of them had like very, you know, deep rooted subconscious
biases. So they would sort of steer black students and Muslim students in the wrong
direction and basically away from success. So I I have like school has always been
really easy for me. So my mom told me to take AP classes and things like that and
classes that would challenge me and you know, put my skills to the test basically.
But one of my counselors the first counselor that I had just told me straight up
not to take class because it's too hard for me, and that I wouldn't succeed in the
class. And I would only just make my GPA lower, even though I had a 4.0. And I was
already like, school was easy for me. So I was gonna succeed. And I knew that. And
so he told me he was like, yeah, just don't take it. It just doesn't make sense for
you, you're just going to fail, you won't be successful. So just save yourself the
trouble. And so he told a lot, a lot of Somali students that and a lot of them
weren't as fortunate as me to, you know, be confident in their abilities and they
didn't have parents to give them confidence in their abilities in their educational
abilities. So a lot of them just ended up taking not only just like regular
classes, he took like, remedial classes like like, what is it called? Like, is it a
remedial class like the pre class like, like, intermediate and advanced like, is it
remedial class? I think so. I don't know like the first level like the classes for
like basically, like slow kids and even Though, you know, they didn't have any
mental issues or anything like that, that that indicated that they needed to be in
those classes, they were just putting those classes because of what they look like
and who they were. And just the stereotypes that were associated with, you know,
that background. And so I immediately told my mom, she came to the school, talk to
the principal forced them to get me a different counselor, and also just like
forced investigation into that counselor, like, how dare you tell these kids that
they are not good enough for this stuff, you know? And so when I was I got into
those AP classes, obviously, and I succeeded in them got all A's, you know, I only
took one AP exam. So just because I have test anxiety
but I got a five on that exam. So
shout out to
Mr. Johnson. I'm better than you now. But no, I'm yeah. And so when I did get up, I
did end up in those AP classes. They were all white. Like I was, like nine out of
10 times I was only personal color, and like only black woman and only Muslim woman
in that class. So not only was I having to deal with being alone In the class, I
also had to defend myself and defend the fact that I deserve to be in that class.
And some of my teachers in high school were kind of already expected me to fail.
And so I like asking questions, and I like being very participant, I like
participating in my classes. And so I would stay after class and like, asked my my
AP language and composition professor, I used to ask him like, Hey, is anything I
can do to get my grades up? I don't understand this material, blah, blah, blah. And
he was like, Oh, well, of course, you don't understand that. And I was like, What
am I supposed to me? He's like, Well, you know, just because you like, you don't
really understand it. Because this is like material that you know, you don't
understand. I was like, why do you think I don't understand it? I don't understand
because you're a terrible teacher. And he's like, no well, you just don't
understand it because you weren't raised like this. And like, because we were
reading Grapes of Wrath, I think and that was the dumbest book I ever read in my
entire goddamn life. hated that book. It was about white farmers. Because I'm like,
How am I supposed to understand something that I don't relate to at all? I don't
know what they're talking about their struggle with the Great Depression I
wasn't in America. My family
has gone through a different depression, you know, so, things like that. Like I
just didn't understand. And instead of, you know, taking the time out to help me
understand, which was his job, he would just write me off, but I still succeeded in
that class, thankfully, but you know, other people weren't so lucky. And the
students who didn't succeed in that class, like they just reinforced something in
his brain that, you know, he was right about them. They're dumb. They don't deserve
to be an AP classes. So what's the point of even encouraging them to take up
classes and stuff? So? Yeah, it's just really hard. And like, not even just having
to defend my, the, not even having to defend my, you know, my intelligence. It was
just having to defend my people basically, like my teachers would say micro
aggressive things my classmates would be would have micro aggressions and all this
stuff and be like, Oh, so every time we talked about like Africa, they just look at
me, they'd be like, so tell us about your time in Africa. Like they didn't even
know I was born there. So I used to just lie and be like I was born in America,
what the hell are you talking about, like me and you are the same stop trying to
act like we're different, you know, and if I they will talk about like, oh, who in
here speaks a second language. And like, I wouldn't raise my hand. And my teacher
would be like really siham? You don't speak a second language? Like, I speak three
languages, but you don't need to know that because you're just going to use that
information to just reinforce something in your brain. And I remember one time my,
my psychology teacher said, who show of hands who in here has family that's in the
military or Navy or National Guard, and I raised my hand and she was so surprised
that somebody my family was in the Navy, my cousin Ghandi was in the Navy for like,
six years, he served his country, he did a great job, you know, like, shout out to
him, like, thank you for your service Ghandi. But she was so surprised that I had
somebody in my family willing to fight for this country, you know, because
obviously, she thinks that they're fighting for the other side, like, you know what
I mean? So um just having to defend so much of myself, like I was so angry in that
time, honestly, like, because it's tiring. It's exhausting having to defend your
humanity and your right to be in certain classes. And just basically, like, just
defending your right to be in that country is just exhausting. And I shouldn't be I
shouldn't have had to be 14 and 15 years old. Just having to fight all the time.
Just be angry and people wonder why there's like that angry black woman troupe like
we're just tired. We're so tired of having to defend ourselves and just fight all
the time. Like I am angry and I'm angry because you made me angry. I wasn't angry
initially like, whos fault is thisyou know, so it's definitely my education
like a big, big part of who I am.
Amran Ali 38:13
So, which brings me to this question if you got a chance to say a few words, or
give advice to younger Siham, What would you tell her?
Siham Isse 38:33
Um so I feel like I have this chance because I have a 10 year old sister who looks
exactly like me. She acts exactly like me. She is like, she's just my carbon copy.
So I'm always giving her advice. And I think one thing that I would say is
definitely just relax a little. I was always on edge all the time. In high school,
I was already I was always ready to just like fight somebody basically. And I would
probably just tell myself to just take it easy. Like if we were having class
discussion that somebody said something racist, I didn't always have to check them.
Like that was just so much pressure on me to just have to be listening at all times
be ready, I'd have to know so much about everything in order to defend myself.
Probably just take it easy, and just like don't rush like you don't need to be
stressed out about school. I think I overstressed myself again, because I had to
prove that I belonged there. So it always be going above and beyond having to get
straight A's perfect grades and everything. Just because I didn't want to reinforce
any negative stereotypes about my people. But I never really got to be a kid
because of that. I never really had got to enjoy my childhood. Because honestly,
black women, like we're just raised to be adults, like we were not children, like
we never get to be children. It's being born and then having to just become adults
become super mature, be able to take care of ourselves, take care of our families,
take care of our image, having to you know, be our own PR people all the time. Like
Okay, you can't say this or else people will think you're like this and this and
this and this, but I just wish I was a little kid because it doesn't matter if I
was being loud at a restaurant, like what's going to happen to me, you know? And
that's something that my mom needs to learn to, like, stop telling us to be quiet
when we're out. You know, like, if me and my cousins or my friends are being loud
and rowdy, that's okay. Because we're young. We're, we're kids, we're, it's okay
for us to be loud and to make noise and to take up space, basically. So yeah,
that's something that I definitely tell myself is to just just be okay with my
existence and not having to prove my existence all the time.
Amran Ali 40:32
Awesome, very, very insightful. So thank you for that. Well, I wish you the best in
all of your future endeavors. Again, thank you so much for your time today, Siham.
This concludes our interview.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral histo... Show more
Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral history today,
sister Sharon, welcome. And please introduce yourself.
Sharon Al-Emin 0:33
Thank you. Thank you Sister Khadra. Again, my name is Sharon Al Emin. I am a African
American Muslim woman. I have been here in the Twin Cities area for over 30 years. I am
married with three children that also resides in the Twin Cities area. I don't know how do you
want me to give you a little bit more? Yes. I currently serve as Minneapolis school board director
for our North Side schools here in the Minneapolis area. My full time position, I work for
Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. I work in the finance division, where I do accounts
payable. So that is my full time job. In addition to that, I serve as the mosque food coordinator, I
volunteer my time to help with a lot of the food projects that go on at the masjid. So that's just a
little bit about who I am. What I do, and I'm sure we'll get a little further into detail about who I
am and what I represent.
Khadra Mohamed 1:38
Yes, thank you. So you told me about, you said you have been in the Twin Cities For how long?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:49
It'll be 30 years. It'll be 30 years soon here. So about 30 years. Yes. Yeah. So
Khadra Mohamed 1:54
tell me about where you from where you born, where you've been raised?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:58
Okay. Yep. So Chicago is my hometown, Chicago, Illinois. Born and raised there. My father, my
mother and father both lived there. My father still resides in a home that we were raised in. My
mother passed away from breast cancer when I was 16 years of age. So at a very young age,
she was 43 years old. So just very, very hard time for me as a young mother at that time to be
without my mom. And so I had to grow up very quickly, because I was responsible for another
person that was looking up to me as mom now. So Chicago is my hometown. My family is a
family of seven. I have there's four girls, and there are three boys. Currently, two of my brothers
have passed away, but the five of us are still living. So I come from a pretty large family. I was
raised, and Christian religion. So going to church, you know, celebrating the Easter holidays, or
Christmas holidays was all part of my childhood. When I relocated to Minneapolis area when I
was 19 20 years of age, is when I relocated to the Twin Cities area. My husband and I had met
when he was in Chicago, in the University of Chicago for school, we met there, he kinda, you
know, made the decision to come back home. And I slowly came behind him to the Twin Cities
area. So my husband, as you know, his Imam Makram. At the time when we met, he was not
the Imam he was, you know, a young Muslim man, that was, you know, definitely still practicing
his religion. And we both began to study it together. So at that time, I moved to Minnesota back
in 1990 1990. And I remember 91 was when the terrible snowstorm hit, and I was like, why did I
move to this place, but every week located in 1990, with my now husband, and I began to study
the religion back in 1991, studied it for about two years myself, just again, wanting to make sure
that I understood what Islam it was this you know, something that I could live up to wasn't
something that I could see myself, being proud of me being my life. And so after studying and
seeing the beauty, and the religion of Islam and understanding the role of the woman and
understanding how Islam strengthens us and make us stronger, connects our families and
connects our community. And really, just gives you the opportunity to live the best life that you
can. I took my Shahada in 1992 and I've been Muslim ever since a, again, African American
Muslim woman practicing my religion every single day. Right now we're going through the month
of Ramadan. And I must say that every time I read the Quran, I walk away with something new,
something different, a different understanding, a more heightened understanding of our religion.
And so for me, Islam is my way. I am proud to be a African American Muslim woman here in my
religion able to stand for what I believe.
Khadra Mohamed 5:44
Yes, thank you, Sharon. So you touched about that your mom passed away? When you were 16
years old?
Sharon Al-Emin 5:59
16 years of age? Yes.
Khadra Mohamed 6:00
Um, yeah. And then you had someone who was dependent on you did you had a sinling.
Sharon Al-Emin 6:07
I actually had a I was a teen mom. So I was a teen mom. Yes. So my daughter, my daughter, I
had actually just given birth to my daughter a couple months before she passed away. And so I
was young, you know, I was with a baby and then lost my mom, it was a very, very, very hard
time for me. But fortunately, I had my older sisters, my father, you know, still to this day is still
very present in my life. And I was able to stay grounded. And understand that I had a
responsibility. Now, that was dependent on me. So I had to grow up fast. I always say I had to
mature, I had to accept the responsibility and become a woman very, very, very fast in my life.
So
Khadra Mohamed 6:54
yes, that's, that's very early age to be mom and raise a kid and at the same time lost your,
Unknown Speaker 7:04
your mother,
Khadra Mohamed 7:07
it was not easy. Then you say you had two brothers?
Sharon Al-Emin 7:12
I have, I actually have three brothers. Okay. Two that have passed away, and one that's still
living. So out of the seven, there are five of us that are still living, and I myself and my sister are
the only two that are in Minnesota, all the other still reside in Chicago.
Khadra Mohamed 7:34
Okay, um, tell me about your dad.
Sharon Al-Emin 7:41
My father. He's amazing. He's a, you know, black African American man, who has always been
there for his family. He is currently still living, he will be 84 this year in sha Allah, still able to
pretty much get around himself. My father was he was a truck driver all his life. So again, you
know, came to the era where education was very limited. He had a sixth grade, high school
education. And then, you know, like all the others back in 1938, when he was born, you know,
so, living during living during those times, when it was about survival. It was about surviving for
your family. And they, he knew the importance of education, but surviving was even more more
of a responsibility for him. So providing for his family. So my father is, he's an amazing man who
still today, he still goes to the churches every Sunday to practice his religion. And we still talk
once a week, once a week here. Yes. Great,
Khadra Mohamed 8:53
great. Um, so you've converted to Islam. Can you tell me more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 9:05
Yes, I took my Shahada, what is known as the declaration when you become a Muslim, you
have to take your Shahada. So you have to stand before and submit, submit to yourself and
take the declaration of owning Islam as your way in submit to not being forced. And doing this
under your own will and under your own accord. I studied Islam for I want to say about two
years before I made the decision, because again, I wanted to understand, I wanted to
understand what it meant to be a Muslim. I wanted to understand the five pillars in Islam. I
wanted to understand the prayer in Islam and what it meant for the woman you know, to wear
the hijab and how she was to carry herself and how she is the nurture of the home All those
things were very critical to me. So I took it upon myself to begin studying the Quran to study,
read lots of different books to study, different Hadees and learn about our Prophet Mohammed
salatu salam in just making sure again, that it was something that I understood that I felt like I
could live up to and be able to answer any questions or answer to my Lord, as to why this is
something that I have chosen to do.
Khadra Mohamed 10:35
Thank you. That's amazing. Yeah, for you to be able to learn, you're the new religion that you
have just converted and be able to answer questions and all that. So I know you've touched
about the role of the woman. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 11:05
Yeah, and you know, and I say in Islam, but it's really no different in all the religions right? As a
mother, we are the nurturers, right. So we are the mothers, we are the doctors, we are the
teachers we are, you know, we are the ones who try to make sure our home is held in the right
way we are, we are the nurturers. So we are the ones that care for our children we do for our
children were at the schools, were educating our children, we are doing all these things. Islam is
just a reminder of the role that we as women play. And so the beauty to me when it when Islam,
it just shows again how, as a woman, we have our roles, right and I, I say roles in a very lenient
way. Because it doesn't restrict us that we can only do just that. We know that again, being
leaders in our home that we can step out and lead in any way because we have had this
experience and our homes. But it's time again, it just it raises the woman on a highest of levels,
right when we talk about women in Islam, and we read about the different stories from our
Prophet, and we know of the stories when when someone was less came to the Prophet x the
story about who should he go to, when he was dealing with this difficult situation. And the
Prophet directed him to his mother. And he said, then Who, and he said, Your mother, and then
he said, and then who he said, Your mother again, and then your father. And so in just seeing
the emphasis and the weight that we as women carry on us, it gets to be very heavy, and
overwhelming. But Allah does not place anything on us that we cannot bear. And and that's a
reminder for me, as a woman as I try to fulfill my role in my home, as a wife, right? As a sister,
as a friend, as a sister in Islam and trying to do the different things that we do in our massages
in our mosque. Those are all the little reminders that remind me that yes, I am a woman. But at
the same time we have to understand that Allah wouldn't put anything on us greater than we
can bear.
Khadra Mohamed 13:33
Yes, thank you so much for sharing that shirt. Um, I also want to ask you about your education.
And when you were you went to university or school.
Sharon Al-Emin 13:47
Yep. So again, my my education is in Illinois. So I graduated from Chicago Public Schools. I
have attended some community colleges here in the Twin Cities area and actually more online
abroad. So I have two years of business in my associates degree towards that. So again,
business is my strength. But I find so many different areas where my passion drives me
towards. Right and so I have my bachelor's in business.
Khadra Mohamed 14:28
Um, you have you mentioned that you had worked with the sheriff's office. Could you tell us
about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 14:39
I work for the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office. Right here, downtown Minneapolis area. I have
actually been with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office for six years now. I work in the finance
division. So again, the accounts payable really had on and a lot of the accounts, set up
accounts, making sure that The bills and stuff for the sheriff's department are within budget and
are being paid within a correct manner. So I am a civilian within the Hennepin County Sheriff's
Department, which again, just kinda is the public service, public service work that I continue to
do for my community.
Khadra Mohamed 15:23
Yeah, um, you also mentioned that you are on the board of Minneapolis Public Schools.
Sharon Al-Emin 15:30
Yep.
Khadra Mohamed 15:30
Um, can you tell me more about that? And what have driven you to go on that route?
Sharon Al-Emin 15:37
Yes, sure. So I recently elected to the Minneapolis school board, I took my seat in January of
this year, January 2021. School Board is a four year term that we serve, it is an elected position
that the community election, you and you have the opportunity to serve your community. Within
the Minneapolis school board, it is structured with nine other school board, representatives. And
so I am one of the nine, we pretty much govern the school district, and the policies, and again,
the budget, the finances, and how the school is governed. We have our main, we supervise the
superintendent of the school. So that is our job to make sure that the superintendent is serving
our communities, our families, and the best way that they can. And so for me my passion. I
again, I have three children, although my children have went to Minneapolis Public Schools, and
so I had the opportunity to be in the schools, I had the opportunity to build relationships with my
children's teachers, I know the importance of having a parent present within the school, and
whether that's physically present or just communication, right, just make sure that that teacher
and that that school knows that you support them, you are there for your child, and you are your
child's number one fan, if you will, number one cheerleader, right, and that you will be there to
support them all the way. And so I I built lots of relationships throughout my children's school
here. I was president of parent organizations, I have set on site councils, again, to make sure
that our schools have what they need the resources that they need, in order for our children to
succeed. It gave me an opportunity to see how our system and as we know, today, our system
is is continuing to fail our children, and especially our black and brown children, right. And so my
passion for me is was to get on this board to learn more, and to be able to bring it back to my
community. Because the more that we as parents are educated about how the school system
works, the more that we can challenge them about the resources and question and understand
where the dollars are coming from, where they're going, and how much more we need. Right.
And so for me, I saw that a lot of it wasn't that our parents were not actively involved in their
children's education. Sometimes we just didn't know. We just didn't know. It was the school not
communicating to us, as black and brown parents the best way that they can, it was the school
system, judging our lifestyles as a way to say that we are not committed right or that we are not
involved in our children life. And so for me, it's it's a cycle, it's the system. It's the status quo that
needs to be broken. But in order for us to do that, we have to be more educated, we have to
understand, and we have to be able to mobilize our community and bring our parents and our
mothers together. Mothers fathers, and when I say parents, I'm not just talking about mothers
and fathers, right, because sometimes a parent shows up as an older sister. Sometimes the
parents shows up as the it, who's at home, while the mother is trying to work, right? Sometimes
the parent shows up as that uncle who has a little more time and flexibility in his schedule, why
the dad is trying to go out and provide for his family. And so when I say parent I'm speaking very
broad. In terms of parent I'm not just talking about mother and father. Are we freezing up here?
Khadra Mohamed 20:05
I had a little bit of internet issue there.
Sharon Al-Emin 20:10
So I'm not sure if you miss much. But again, when I, when I'm talking about parent involvement
is very broad. It's from all different avenues, not just a mother and father, it's whoever we can
get to represent that child and to be by that child side during that time when needed. So, yeah,
so that is my passion. That is what drove me to run for school board. Again, we have to, I say,
all the time, we have to occupy the seats, so that we can understand and so that our children
can see see us and all these different ways and all these different models, and know that they
can be in these different roles and models, too. So.
Khadra Mohamed 20:54
Okay, thank you, Sharon, for sharing that. And I thank you for doing the job you're doing at the
Minneapolis Public Schools and the board. I know and I also am a special education assistance,
Minneapolis Public Schools, and we know the struggles that students, brown and black students
and families go through every day. So um, what would you like to see change in the school
system?
Sharon Al-Emin 21:32
Oh, that's a heavy one. What would I like to see change in the schools, I want to see more
parent engagement. I want to see
more
a welcoming way for parents to be involved. We have to open the doors and let our parents in,
we have to open the door so that our parents and our teachers and our educators can build
relationships, and work together, we have to work together again, so that we are educating our
communities to understand that why our schools are underfunded, and why we are not able to
have all the resources, the way that we know is so needed, and how do we move together?
Again, how do we mobilize together to make those things happen? I want to see more dollars
going towards our schools. I mean, you know, better than I do, probably the need for in our
special education department. Right. And then when we go again, into our North Side School,
which I am the school board directors for the North side, we know that we are even less
fortunate than some of our white suburban schools, right? We know that we sometimes deal
with our schools not functioning. And the best way, we know that we sometimes I'm not gonna
say sometimes we know that our schools are staffed with more of the inexperienced teachers,
right. But we are the most diverse. on the north side, we are the most challenging when it
comes to the north side. Our children are brilliant, and they just need to be able to be taught in a
different ways. So how do we make sure that our teachers are culturally trained? Right? How do
we make sure that we leave the space for our teachers and our educators to know that we
support them, and the work that they are trying to do and provide all of that they need to be the
best that they can be? So it's it's a heavy load that we all carry. So right now, my priorities within
the school, again, is the parent engagement. I think the more that we can educate our parents
about what the school district actually represent. Where do the dollars come from? Where do
we, where did the resources come from? Whose doors Do we need to go knock that right?
When it comes to more dollars? Is it the senate? Is it our legislative is that you know, we have to
educate our community more when it comes to that and understanding the structure of how the
school is formulated. So that is my goal.
Khadra Mohamed 24:43
Thank you. Um, I also wanna come back to your role and engagement in the community and
the mosque. Tell me more about that.
Sharon Al-Emin 24:59
So I know sometimes I don't know which hat I'm wearing, right? It gets to be so much, but um,
you know, I am the wife of a Imam. And so I mesh to this continuously growing masji al Nur is
where I call home, it is where it's my home, which is located in North Minneapolis here. So I am
going to backtrack just a little bit. Because the masjid it has grown so expeditiously and doing so
many things now. We, we started, where are we in 2021, I want to say about 10 years ago,
when we were just very small, we just masjid al noor, and we began to do our hot meal
program, I was the food coordinator over that. And so every first Sunday of the month, I would
come in and I would prepare 100 meals to be given out to the community. So it was 100 hat
meals that we will prepare, and you know, I would be there cooking the meals up buying the
meals, a lot of times with other sisters, we would purchase the meals, we would cook the meal
serve the meals, and make sure that we were doing diligence in our community. So that was
one of the programs that I had a spearhead for a a couple of years now, at masjid al Nor
transitioning into now we have the Al maa'uun side, which kind of handles more of the food
administrators, the hat meals that are going on, which is which is which is really grew, which is
really grew. So it's more it's a lot more structured. Now. It was like taking that small idea and
expanding it right. And so now we have much more of a food program at our Masjid under Al
maa'uun. That's, I don't spearhead that. But again, I'm the wife of the Imam. So I have to step in
wherever it's needed. Wherever the call is still, I also was a teacher, for our students, our
Muslim children, so make sure again, that we were teaching them their religion, to make sure
that they had the opportunity to explore and understand who they are as young adults, so I have
been in the role of a teacher at our mosque, you know, creating all the different avenues of Girl
Scouts, working with our young ladies teaching them how to just again step into womanhood
and teaching them their religion. I have also coordinated a lot of the different food drives for
giveaways that we do again, through bash the door. Fast forward now, which is Al maa'uun
which is spearheaded by a different group. Because again, it began to grow so much that we
needed additional help so so yeah, that that's, that's just a little bit about me and the role that I
play within the masjid right now. So, yes.
Khadra Mohamed 28:18
Okay, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Sharon. I also want to ask you about your
husband, the Imam, can you tell me about him and what he does?
Sharon Al-Emin 28:30
Oh, wow, no. My husband, my Makram, we have actually been married 20 it'll be 29 years this
year. 100 de la so we have had the opportunity to grow with each other. He is the Imam of the
masjid. He became the Imam Masjid when my son. Gosh, how old was that son? I want to say
two. So my son was born in 1993. He became the man back in 1995. Again, we were young, we
were young, you know, but we were I want to say that we were ready for the role that allow us
putting us into we were ready to assume the position, if you will, right. So it's been a Imam of the
masjid since 1995. He is also a life coach. So he does some life coaching. Along with again, just
numerous things that he does. He is the founder of Al Maa'uun, which is really again, like I said,
is growing expeditiously. And all the different avenues from working with the food programs to
housing programs to employment training that he oversees to just a number of they he's part of
the interfaith coalition. So, again, making sure we have that list of representation within our
interfaith community, so that we, people know that we are Muslims. And we show up and we
bring what we stand for. And so he has quite the full plate, but alhamdulilah alhamdulileh.
Khadra Mohamed 30:22
Thank you. That's, yes, he does a lot. It's well known in the community. May Allah bless him for
what he does. Um, the other question that I wanted to ask you is, what? Where do you see
yourself in the future? Or where you want to be? Personally, the masjid and anything that you
want to add?
Unknown Speaker 30:53
Sure, sure.
Sharon Al-Emin 30:56
You know, Khadra, that is, I am just gonna be open and honest with you something that I am
struggling with myself right now. Right? community is my passion. So community is my passion,
working with the schools, working with the parents, is my passion. But I also hold my full time
job with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. Right now today, I'm struggling with still
being able to show up for my full time job, because my heart is in my community. And so for me,
my future is more of a full time role within my community, a full time role where I can bring more
information to our mosque, to make sure that when we talk about education, that we have our
Muslims at the table, that we have our Muslim representation, that our families are able to not
be afraid of who they are. Right, and we can show up and not be afraid, right? I mean, even as
a African American Muslim, our challenges are different, right? Our challenges are different from
your challenges, right? Because of culture, because a different I thought we're both black we
have we still have a difference within ourselves. And so for me, I can remember my my children
going to school, and the during the time of Ramadan, right, and almost felt like they were
isolated because all the other children were not participating in Ramadan. Right. So and I do
apologize, you know, where Ramadan were fasting its. dry mouth. So I can remember having
conversations with my children about Ramadan, and explaining to them why we are fasting, and
having to explain to them over and over and over why we don't celebrate Christmas, right? And
having to explain to them why our religion, fast forwarding to the Aedes is only the one day and
Christmas, they get the two weeks out of school, and you know, you, you had this continued
battle that was always going on in the home. And so the children didn't feel like they could be
who truly represent themselves as Muslims, right. So it was a continuous battle, within the
homes about the fast thing about the five daily prayers, right, about the no dating about, you
know, all those different things that you have to explain to them over about them that eating
other pork and why we don't drink alcohol and why we don't smoke and why. You know, it's just
a continual conversation that we have to have in our homes. And so for me, those are all areas
where I see myself being able to bring into our community to have those conversate those
needed conversations about these different areas. And how do we how do we create this safe
space right within our messages within our community to be able to talk about these things with
our children? So futuristic, where do I see myself that that is a that's a tough question. My goal
again is more and community I'd never thought I would see myself in politics. Right? But we I
See all the time we plan and a lot of plans, and he's the best of planners, and we have to be
prepared for the roles that he sees best for us. And I know that everything that I'm doing is, is by
the will of Allah is by the grace of Allah and that he is guiding me. And so I don't know, I don't
know, I find myself more engaged in a lot more of the community issues, that we are facing
policies and wanting to understand why, and how can I make things better?
Khadra Mohamed 35:34
Yes, yes, thank you so much for touching all that. It's a lot when it comes, especially to young in
youth to understand all the different perspectives of culture and religion, and how to balance that
it's really hard. I know, a lot of students that I work with a lot of young folks that I see struggle
with identity with their religion, and also with their culture, and some of our immigrants come
from different culture. It's a really, it's hard for them to see the differences in that. So I'm glad
you touch that, and I hope someone will be able to see and read your interview and be able to
understand
this is
this is a fairly hard question. And since you are working with the community and are fairly active,
I want to ask you the current event that's happening in our community in Minnesota. We have
witnessed some justice yesterday in the case of George Floyd and the police, who have killed
him. So I do want to ask you about that the police brutality, the injustice and all that is going on
and you choose what do you want to answer?
Sharon Al-Emin 37:25
Okay.
Okay. I mean, it yesterday was a historical moment for us. I think everyone was taken by
surprise, right, we just were all sitting in bracing ourselves for the verdict to come out. And so we
found a lot of it, and I'll just speak for myself, I found myself in a lot of anxiety. You know, just
very. I mean, the unrest was real, even even within our own community. And so for me, to have
to watch the trauma of how Mr. George Floyd's life was taken right before our own eyes. And I
can remember when it happened, you know, just thinking past that, that could be my husband,
that could be my two sons. That could be my brothers. And so when I see George, I see all the
black men that are play critical roles in my life. And so to see this, and the way it unfolded, to
see him screaming out, he can't breathe. I can't breathe, my head hurt. My body hurts.
Everything hurts to hear him scream for his mother, to hear him, you know, scream out for his
daughter, it just again, as a mother of an African American son. It hurts everything in your body.
Because again, we know that that could be our child. That could be us. That could be us. And
so yesterday's verdict brought a moment of relief. I don't say justice just yet. Because we we still
have or let me take it back. I say it's the start of justice is the start of justice for us. Because it's
one verdict does not healed all the wounds that we have had to bear for years. Right. And so I
actually felt like I could breathe a little bit yesterday when the verdict came in, actually felt like
that anxiety was knocked down just a little bit for the moment. But I know that we still deal with it
every day. In fact, while we were out with community, another black teens life was taken by the
hands of the police, Daunte Wright? Not that day, Wrigh was one. But then there was another
teenager that was just shot and killed a column in Ohio. At the same time, and so for me, black
America, the pain that we in the pain that we have suffered over the years, that one vertic is not
justice. And our attorney general Keith Ellison said it in the best way, he said, this is how
accountability looks. Right? He said, how these offices where this officer was held accountable
for his actions. And as we go on, and we hear more, and we know that justice is when our black
men and women does not have to be afraid, when they see the blue and red sirens, in the back
of their cars, right? When they are pulled over by the one who's supposed to protect us. Right?
That's when justice will be served. So we have a lot of work to do. It was a moment of relief. But
it was a start of the accountability. And it shows me how we we again, we have to occupy the
seat, the strong leadership that is needed on the political Avenue, right, and how we have to we
have to continue to mobilize our community, we have to continue to protest and we have to
continue to show up and demand and command the accountability that has to happen across
the board that is in our education system that is in our criminal justice system that is in our
housing system across the board of what needs to take place for us for black and brown people.
Khadra Mohamed
Most definitely I am going to wrap up and say thank you so much for taking this time to give me
your oral history and giving this history for Muslims in MN if there is anything else you want to
add I will love to hear it.
Sharom Al-Emin
I mean sister Khadra I think we have touch quite a bit being black in American we know it is a
full time job right and being a Muslim African American in America makes the job even more
twices hard so we again have to continue to show up we have to continue to being in a space
we have to continue to have work to have safe space and being able have broad conversations
to be able to be authentic and be able to show up and not to be afraid to repersent our selves as
African American Muslims.
Khadra Mohamed
Absulitly I can not top anything on that so I am going to stop on there and Thank you so much.
Sharon Al-Emin
Alhamdulileh Alhamdulileh your welcome
Show less
Mackenzie Ray 0:00
Okay, so Today is November 22, 2019 at 10:15am. I'm Mackenzie Ray and I'm here
interviewing Sarah Kiani. And this is for the Augsburg Muslims in Minnesota oral
archives project. To start off Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself tell a little bit
about what you do o... Show more
Mackenzie Ray 0:00
Okay, so Today is November 22, 2019 at 10:15am. I'm Mackenzie Ray and I'm here
interviewing Sarah Kiani. And this is for the Augsburg Muslims in Minnesota oral
archives project. To start off Sarah, would you like to introduce yourself tell a little bit
about what you do or your background.
Sarah Kiani 0:19
Sure. So I'm Sarah Kiani. I grew up in St. Paul. I live in Hastings currently and I am a
LPCC which is a licensed professional clinical counselor. So that's what I do for work.
I'm in the process right now of opening a new agency. So I focus mostly on work with
children and trauma and women. And I went to grad school in Iowa and undergrad at U
of M.
Mackenzie Ray 0:50
That's really cool. Um, I that's so cool. Um, so how do you connect with the Islamic
community then?
Sarah Kiani 1:01
Through the mosque that I go to, that's where I've met the people that I know there's
also a really neat bookstore called Daybreak press where I've met some women that
I've connected with since I moved back because we were gone for several years, even
though I grew up here. So since I've been back, I connected through people through the
mosque that I go to and the bookstore.
Mackenzie Ray 1:23
Cool, cool. So I heard that you had an interesting story of how you converted to Islam
because you didn't grow up Muslim,
Sarah Kiani 1:31
I grew up Catholic, Irish Catholic to be exact.
Mackenzie Ray 1:35
Okay, could you tell a little bit about that story of how you decided to convert?
Sarah Kiani 1:39
Yeah, so that story would be the longest part of this talk. So...
Mackenzie Ray 1:44
Yeah.
1
Sarah Kiani 1:44
Okay. So, you, I'll give you just a little background information or just because it helps
with the context. So I grew up in St. Paul went to Catholic school, most of my life. family
was Irish and German. Catholic Sunday Catholics. My grandma was Much more
religious with the rosaries and litany of saints. So I was, you know, aware of all the ways
in which to practice Catholicism and going to Catholic school growing up, we would go
to Mass and, you know, all the rights of first communion and confirmation. I didn't really
question that, although the whole concept of confession always felt very awkward, even
as a young child going into this box, and that was always very uncomfortable and
strange to me. Um, and then as I became a teenager, like most teenagers, I started to
have those bigger questions in terms of does this make sense? And what does it all
mean? And I was always kind of a free thinker, very creative, child and young person.
So as I got into high school, I started questioning the training I had been given
religiously in terms of the belief system that Jesus was the same as God and also some
of the institutional sides of the church that didn't really fit with me some equity from like
female perspective, and also just sort of the feeling of sin and shame and guilt that
comes with being raised in most religions, but specifically, with the repentance and
some of the structures of Catholicism. I started questioning that I never questioned God,
you know, and I'm really grateful because I know people to go through that and it can be
really hard. I always had had faith in God. But so from about 16 into really my 30s I was
a believer of God without really a religion. I would go sometimes back home to visit and
go to church on Christmas, really, for the tradition of it all. But I didn't miss the comfort of
having like a faith community. But not enough to kind of really do much seeking. I was
Okay with where I was at because I had my own personal relationship with God, it never
went away. So then I lived in New York. And that's where I met my first husband. And
he was from Tunisia, North Africa. And we were married for nine years and had two
daughters together. And I learned a lot about Islam, you know, because he was Muslim,
and we agreed to raise the girls in Islam because I wasn't practicing religion. So it
wasn't a problem for me to agree to that because he was practicing and you know what,
this is fine with me. I didn't have a problem with his belief system. I didn't disagree with
any of it. And I was happy to offer that to the, to the girls so I because of agreeing to
that that I wanted to teach them. So I started learning more about the religion and
actually taught at a Muslim private school. I was a kindergarten teacher. Still I hadn't
converted to Islam but I at the school you wore a hijab and you know, dressed
conservatively and met a lot of more Muslim people loved my ex husband's family and
culture still do good friends with him still just have a really fond feelings are his country
and culture and people and his family. So that was all very positive. But there wasn't
certain elements of culture that rubs me the wrong way as a feminist woman in terms of
2
some structures of oppression and power and control that were culturally learned
behaviors that I associated with the religion because I didn't know that much about it.
And through the journey I just hadn't. I hadn't had like a calling to start practicing the
religion myself. Should I keep going? So But like I said, I learned it you know, I learned
about how the religion worked I learned about the practicing side of it I taught my girls I
children's books and learn the alphabet, Arabic alphabet. In and you know it in Islam, it
says that in the Quran that that only Allah will will touch the heart of the believer. And
there's really no other way to, to understand that for for me as a convert. Very personal,
you know, and and that's one of the issues I really struggle with in today's environment
is that we we've politicized religion, and it's it's a one person's relationship with God and
who has anyone else to talk about that. You know, it's very, it's very much a violation of
privacy. And then, you know, now we deal with the blanketing beliefs about other
people's religion and then we think it's religion is complicated, and it's hard enough to
understand your own religion as a as a person on a faith journey. So how then can
another person as an outsider come in and start making assumptions and judgments
about someone else's relationship with God? I mean, to me, that's one of the most
ultimate violations of privacy. So I really do struggle with the current environment that
we're in right now. So and then, for me, it gets even more personal. And I choose to
share this story really, for the first time publicly, because it's really a huge it is the
reason I'm on the path I am. It's because it's the person I have become is because of
this. So excuse me if I get a little emotional because it is very personal story.
Mackenzie Ray 7:40
It's perfectly fine, if you ever need to break.
Sarah Kiani 7:43
Sure, sure. So so we were married and my, my children were two and six. And our
marriage had had sort of dissolved we had gotten separated and we're on the path to to
ending that mostly due to culture to be quite honest, there was just struggles there that
I, I couldn't bridge, you know, and now knowing now what I know. But But then, you
know, it's it's just it's very hard to be in an intercultural marriage. And that is true, I think,
for anyone from anywhere in the world, you know, people from Europe, married to
Americans, people from Mexico, married to Americans. I mean, I've got lots of friends
and in intercultural marriages, and it's a struggle, and that struggle ultimately was
something we couldn't bridge. And so we were, we were separated and we were kind of
working on talking but um, you know, trying to see where ultimately it would end and it
was, I had moved, we were living in Orlando, Florida, and I gotten a house and I was
teaching still. And it was February my daughter was in kindergarten at a Montessori
school. She was very happy, wonderful school with children from all over the world. It
3
was like a rainbow school, you know, which is really what I think anyone should, in my
opinion strive for for their kids, you know, tons of diversity. So she was there and then
my little one was just two so that the girls were happy and life was pretty, pretty good.
And it was Valentine's Day weekend and we went to the beach all together and came
back and my daughter got sick quickly for unexplained reason. And so we took her to
the doctor and they they gave her an antibiotic. And then the next day, she was kind of
coughing and having some weird symptoms. I thought maybe she was not tolerating the
medicine so I took her to the ER to make sure she wasn't having any reaction to the
antibiotic and she was given epinephrine the wrong way. You're supposed to give it in a
shot and she was given it in her IV. So it caused her to have pulmonary edema, which is
too much blood flow happening. It's very critical condition that it caused. So, you know,
within an hour we walked in. She was chewing bubblegum and we walked in and within
an hour we were being rushed to the ICU of the Children's Hospital and about 14 hours
later, she was given an accidental overdose.
Mackenzie Ray 10:42
Alright we're back from our break.
Sarah Kiani 10:45
Yeah, so we were there and we were unexpectedly suddenly fighting for our girl's life
and you know, they accidentally killed her. Her heart stopped, and they couldn't get a
heartbeat back. And anyone who's lost someone they love understands so hard but as
a mother to lose your firstborn child. It was hell on earth and an Imam came to us in the
hospital as a chaplain. And he prayed over her body and he brought light into a place
that I thought would never be possible. Oh, the way he entered the room and just his
presence and the power of God that he brought with him. It didn't make anything better
but it was a divine, divine was presence. So then we had to, you know, leave without
her, and in Islam you bury quickly, which I didn't know because you know, you don't
know these things until they happen and because I didn't grow up. I didn't grow up
Muslim I didn't know that Islamic Burial Rites. And I mean, needless to say, you know,
my family flew down and within it I think about a day and a half we buried her in the
Muslim cemetery and so you know by by fire we say Baptism by fire, you know by fire I
learned the rights of Islamic burial and how it works and I really wish I'd known before
you know how that works. And I think that's something that I'd like to go back to in terms
of helping others understand. No, no one knows when theses tragedy will strike and so
that happened and, you know, she was healthy. She was not a sick child. So this was a
light was extinguished a big light, you know, she was like a star. We were left behind.
And so we had to try to live you know. And I saw my my daughter, my 2 and a half year
old and my daughter who died her name was Yesmine, and I wanna honor that. So,
4
again, you know, I didn't know, I didn't know all these things I hadn't been taught, you
know, my family didn't know it's very confusing time. There was a lot of cultural conflict.
There was. It was hard. It was hard. My family was there in the house and my husband
was there and his family came in. Lots of committee members came, you know that that
week that time is kind of a blur, but there's certain things that stand out, you know, that I
want to share for part of the story, because it's very relative to how my path has
evolved. And so my little girl had been at a friend's house, you know, and then we had
to, you know, bring her back and her sister wasn't there. So we had to tell her, you
know, and I, she came in to me and I, I told her that she was gone and that she was
with Allah and my daughter was two and a half, and she was sitting with me and, and
she said, What? When I grow old, I will swing in the tree in the garden with Mina. And I
got up and went and found my husband out on the porch with his people, but I said,
What did you say to her? What did you tell her? About where Yesmine is and Jannah,
Jannah is heaven what what it's and he said I haven't talked to her yet. And in Islam,
you know, we believe that when a child dies, they go into the garden with Abraham who
guards over them and we also believe that little little children can hear the angels and
sometimes see them. And my daughter, you know, the angels told her where her sister
was not not me. Not anyone, no one told her. So, you know, it's, it's like concrete, this is
concrete. This is a true story. You know, this happens. My daughter said those words,
no one told her anything. And she knew where where my other daughter was and that
and that she was in a beautiful place and that and that, and then the angel had told her
that she she, she get to be with her and that garden, you know, so as, as really,
terminal. I felt literally terminal. I felt that was like a gift. A huge gift that she said those
words. And so we and then, you know, people just kept coming and food kept coming
in, love kept coming in. But, you know, with grief and loss, those first couple weeks are
so intense and then people start to leave because they go back to their life and then
you're left you know, without your kid and I wasn't okay. You know, I wasn't I was not
okay. I was really barely living, barely, barely able to continue to live a physical,
psychological, emotional, spiritual level I was I was I was I felt like I was dying. And I
was in and out of the hospital a couple of times those first couple weeks I just was not, I
was not okay. And I can't remember exactly. I think it was about three weeks or four
weeks out. I went to sleep one night and I had a dream. And it really wasn't a dream.
We know that there's dreams and then there's things that are more than dreams. And
Islam even talks about that how, how there's dreams and the dreams can usually just,
you know, part of the dunia part of this world, dunia means this world you know, and
then there's places where Allah can enter you know, to communicate and so this dream
in this dream so we when you bury someone in Islam, you bury them with nothing on
and wrapped in a white sheet and everyone is the same and everyone goes in the
ground there's no coffin there's no you know, thousand dollars worth of flowers. There's
5
no fancy suit. There's, it's and it's because we come in the world naked and we leave
the world naked and when we don't need those things where we're going, you know,
and, and at the time, that was hard, you know, my parents wanted to put flowers. And it
was it was confusing. And as I've gone through my journey, I totally get it. And it makes
so much sense and why would we? Why do we Why do we, as a Western culture, make
people look like they're still alive when they're in the coffin, and we preserve them for
days to make everyone's schedule convenient. And, I mean, so as painful and hard as it
is to put your loved one right in the ground, you know, the idea is that the soul is
needing to get in the ground, right? You know, that the in between time when a person
dies and they get in the ground and Islam is not a good time for the soul. So getting
them in the ground is very important. So in my dream, I was at the cemetery and
because of what happened to my daughter when she died, she was not not physically
looking okay. Because they tried to save her and it was really traumatic and dramatic.
Physically for that purpose. So I was tortured by that those images in the dream she
was this child was incredibly beautiful. And actually, you know, so beautiful that I
worried about her. She was really curly brown hair and big bright blue eyes and tall and
when people would stop people who didn't know her would stop that's what a beautiful
child you know, it's sometimes that I worried like, you know, as she grew up, because
beauty can be a burden, you know. And in my dream, she was just perfect. You know,
Her hair was curly long and her eyes were bright and she was as beautiful and healthy
as she'd ever looked and I I saw her and then I saw this other man from masjid who I
didn't know more as like a he was more just like an accompanying presence. And then
masjid means mosque, and then and then she was standing there and I, I said: What,
what can I get you, you know, what can, what do you need? And she smiles and she
looked at me, she looked into me and she said, Mama, I don't need anything. I get to
eat with Allah ... and I knew she was okay. And I knew I knew she was in the arms of
God. And I saw I got to see her, you know, so it was like, this tremendous gift that Allah
gave me so that I could survive. And when I woke up, you know, like I said, it wasn't a
dream. It was so vivid and real and I mean, it was real and so I called her dad into the
room and I told him about the dream and I, I told him that she was okay and she was,
you know, with with Allah in the garden, she had everything she needed. And then I
wanted to be able to go there, you know? And I said, I want to take Shahada like I was
still laying in bed we just woken up and and the Shahada is like becoming Muslim is is
beautifully simple. So all you do is say La ilaha illa Allah Muhammad Rasula Allah,
which means I believe in God, the one God and Muhammad is His Prophet, and then
you're Muslim. So it's very different than the rights of other religions in terms of, you
know, ceremony and ritual and it was almost hard for me to believe I was like what
else? there and there's nothing else You know, so you can say that I think it's, I'm not
exactly sure, but I think it's about two witnesses. Or you can, can do it in the mosque.
6
And because I think because I grew up Catholic and I was more accustomed to ritual, I
chose to do it in the mosque. I think the next day was a Friday, which is the equivalent
of a Sunday in terms of a church day. So Friday was the prayer. So we went to the
Friday prayers, and then they said that there was a sister who wanted to take Shahada.
And I was able to say that into the microphone, La ilaha illa Allah Muhammad Rasula
Allah. Which was what the imam said, like probably hundreds of times over my
daughter's body in the in the hospital room, La ilaha illa Allah Muhammad Rasula Allah.
It's a very soothing sequence of words. The pattern of the repetition, which is true and
lots of Arabic and Islam, the tone and the intonation and the rhythm is soul food. For
me, so I went home a Muslim, you know, and that's that's how I converted to Islam.
That's that piece of history.
Mackenzie Ray 23:13
That's beautiful. Okay. So since you had this vivid experience and you you converted
because of it you said it was to connect with your daughter in...
Sarah Kiani 23:36
Jannah, yeah
Mackenzie Ray 23:37
in the garden?
Sarah Kiani 23:39
Yeah, like well, so you know I want I wanted to be Muslim like it's not even something
that words can actually explain because the divine is something that's really hard to put
into words of this earth, you know? But I mean I'm in a nutshell I wanted to make it
100% sure that I was going where she was because I got to see where she's, she is
like, I mean, not very many people get to see that. And I believe that God, Allah gave
me that gift to save my life and to help me be a better person and and to help me be
Muslim, you know, to be a believer.
Mackenzie Ray 24:32
You shared a little bit before we started recording about how it's important to share your
stories. Could you go into that a little bit more?
Sarah Kiani 24:41
Sure. Yeah. So So actually, you know, this recording is the first time I've narratively told
this story in a recorded format. And, and my daughter died in 2009. So it'll be you know,
it'll be 11 years in February. So that's a long time. But it's it's an extremely hard story.
7
You know, it's one that a person could probably easily go their whole life not uttering
again .
Mackenzie Ray 25:07
You are so brave for sharing, thank you.
Sarah Kiani 25:09
But, but the reason I'm sharing is because in Islam there's something called da'wah. It's
a concept of da'wah, which is like, it really is sharing, sharing about, about Islam. And
it's something that people are asked to do. And I've seen it done in different ways. I've
seen it done in a more sort of, in your face type ways. And, um, and then I've just seen
a lot of beautiful interfaith work over the years, which is da'wah from an Islamic
perspective, where we sit at the table with people from different religions and we share
and the purpose of the sharing is not to create divisiveness, but to create unity. And to
maybe, you know, and this is not my job in doing da'wah to try to like, I mean, for
example of a comparison of a Jehovah's Witnesses They believe it's their job to go
knocking on doors, and giving books and getting people to believe what they believe in
a very, very in your face way which is prescribed to them through their religion. Islam is
not that way it even says in the Quran, there shall be no compulsion in Islam. There
shall be no me trying to get you to become Muslim, by pressure, by guilt, by
condemnation, by judgments. Because it's, it's between the person and Allah. And so
sharing about Islam you know, the concept would be if I share the story to a room or to
the masses as this recording could possibly be. Maybe that makes sense. I mean, but
but let's just say I share this story to you and it makes sense for you. The idea is not that
I have given you Islam the idea would be that Allah went into your heart and touched
you to open your eyes to this path. So it's like helping do God's work from what I will the
way I see it. So that's a beautiful concept. There is many beautiful concepts in Islam that
I really adhere to. And da'wah is was one of them because it's the idea of
compassionately and openly sharing about this tremendous love you have for Allah.
You know why, why not share?
Mackenzie Ray 27:27
Yeah, that's beautiful. So what other values do you appreciate about Islam? Because
you, you said you appreciate the sharing, the story sharing and all that. Yeah, what
other values?
Sarah Kiani 27:41
There's lots of really great concepts. You know, I'm not an Islamic scholar. I've never
been much of a scholar in general. So you know, the way I approached Islam is the way
8
I approach life in general, like big concepts and understanding and application into the
real world. So You know, in the religion, there's, well, there's several things, but let's
see, I can start with it. Okay, so there's the concept of charity, which is the zakat and
sadaqat so there's a prescribed charity, where you give a certain percent of your
income, I believe 2% every year to charity. And like what a great model like everyone
who can afford meaning you have your basic needs met gives 2% of what they make.
So if you do the difference between someone who makes 30,000 someone who makes
300,000 it's the same 2% and that sustains that that charity that can sustain you know,
while millions with food support and housing support and then supportive the mosques
and education programs that are there. And I just think that makes a lot of sense. It's a
structural institutional way to to, to give charity and as prescribed so it's not you know, if
you if you adhere to a religion, religion I mean, it's not really that you get to pick and
choose, right, the religion is already designed in a divine way. So, so that's a piece I
really like. And then the concept of the dunia of which is this earth, this world I
mentioned a little bit earlier. I like that explanation and that is really something I think
everyone struggles with no matter what their religion is, is like getting wrapped up into
earthly pursuits versus pursuits for the soul. And like trying to balance that so that like
material pursuits or academic pursuits or career pursuits, travel pursuit, any kind of
thing that is tied to this earth. If that becomes out of balance or overpowers our quest for
knowledge of the Divine and Allah, and religion or whatever we believe to be the best
way to get to heaven. There's something out of balance And so with the teachings I
share with my children. And as I teach at the Sunday school don't get too caught up in
the dunia because we're here for like a drop in the bucket compared to eternity. You
know, so when you look at like, you know, I mean, this language is more Christian than,
but everlasting life. You know, I don't know the Arabic but that the eternal when we look
at the eternal life, in in Jannah, which is heaven with with Allah, versus, you know, 80 or
90 years in a in on the planet, the perspective shifts, you know, it gives you a much
more, we say global perspective is what we want to strive for. That's like a divine
perspective, you know, that the idea that we're striving for something beyond that,
what's on this earth, and keeping yourself grounded and not getting too wrapped up in
the dunia. And as young people, you know, it's very easy, especially teens and people
in their 20s. It's like, you know, there's a pressure to strive for earthly belongings. And,
you know, with moderation, that's okay. But sometimes people throw religion completely
to the side because they're so working, you know, 80 hours a week. And so that's that's
another concept. There's another concept I like called fitna the idea of so backbiting and
Islam is very bad, the gossip. And in our culture in America, it's really common to talk
about people when they're not in the room, and especially as girls growing up as girls
and women. And so when I learned about fitna I was really interested in that. And,
again, I'm not a scholar. So my language might not be 100% accurate, but the idea is
9
that you don't talk about someone or they're not there, because you could create a lie
that could damage either the other person or the environment. So fitna can relate to an
institution or mosque or person. And, you know, the idea that we don't guess what
someone else is thinking that we don't assume to know that we don't discuss people's
business when they're not present, and that we don't change things to suit our needs.
Despite what the religion tells us, and that's something that is really subtle that I've seen
happen a lot. The idea that you could use the religion, and this is from an inside
perspective, we can get to the outside perspectives, but from the you could use the
religion as an excuse for your own agenda. So, you know, and it can be like, really well
intentioned people can do this, where they can say, well, Islam says this. So this is why
I'm doing this. And you said that and that's why I'm not doing you know, and that's, you
know, creating a fitna where you create an untruth about an entity or another person, by
not being honest in your communication. You know, you and I are sitting in this room
together. So if I have a question about you, I should ask you, it's really a high moral
standard. And it's hard to adhere to that. You know, I catch myself, you know, with a
friend talking about a friend, I mean it, do it. I try. I think that's a lifelong skill to master.
But I try to impart that to my kids. Because it's like about raising like conscious moral
human beings, you know, the idea that we respect each other and we don't dis each
other behind each other's back. You know, it's hard, but it's, it's and I love that that's a
value. And so those are some of the big ones.
Mackenzie Ray 33:35
Yeah. So a lot of this contradicts like American society and how they view religion. You
mentioned a little bit earlier how you think there should be more religious tolerance and
we don't see that. So how do you think, how do I want to word this, what do you think
society can do to be better, I guess?
Sarah Kiani 34:04
Yeah. Well, tolerance is a good word, you know, but I think there's also a piece of like
understanding, which means like, learning, you know, taking the time to learn a little bit
because, you know, Islam was the, was the Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him
was giving rights to women and a time when women had none, he gave the right of
property and divorce to women. He didn't give, Allah prescribed through the religion and
he shared the teachings of these rights. And that's fundamental and if we look
historically, back in time, at what was really going on, women were property I mean,
they were they were sold from their, by their families with a dowry to their husbands,
and they had no rights. So when he died, then the property just went on to the next
male and and there was not, there were, there were no rights, you know, she could then
have a right to divorce and have a right to property. I mean, that's huge. And then she
10
did like Islam came and gave that right. So we look at that from a historical perspective
at what was going on in the world what was going on globally with women at that time.
Islam was that was a front runner, like they were progressive, you know, and what has
happened since is really a contamination of Western ideology from the time of
oppression of women, not from Islam's contamination, but it got integrated through you
know, the, the, the semblance of monarchy and the idea of rulers and the ideas of really
power and control over women. That then became part of a lot of cultures where Islam
is the main religion, but it is not part of the religion. It is not written that way. And I think
one of the gifts of being a convert and some people use a language revert is that I came
with like this other perspective, you know, and I was able to understand that like, wait a
minute, you are not practicing it by like beating your wife or controlling your wife or
forcing her to do things. You're not practicing your religion, you're going against your
religion, you know. And, and that's, that's a hard thing to understand because that
culture runs so deep, you know, and culture runs deep in every country and in women,
and it's not that we don't have misogyny in America, you know, we do we have a long
way to go. So the mask of equality, when we look at the pay disparity, and a lot of the
inequity that happens, the treatment of girls in school and all the other things that are
still actively happening, it's not that we can sit up here in America and say, well, we
have all these equal rights for women in these other countries don't you know, we all
have a long way to go. But, you know, I just think it's important to understand that, that
that the roots and the fundamental truth of Islam is feminist actually, you know, and I am
I was basically like a raging feminist all through my teens and 20s. And I still consider
myself to be and I'm Muslim, and I'm proudly Muslim. So it's not. There's a lot of
misunderstanding and assumptions inside and outside about the religion on that part,
which is another way of speaking about it to share with other people because I think
people are afraid of Islam. And one of the reasons they're afraid of it is because they
see it as this totalitarian, oppressive, abusive way of being with with women. And that is
not the religion that is culture. That is culture. So I like talking about that, you know, and
I like sharing that with people because, you know, like, I had to share a little tiny story
about that. So it's, like, in our family, we don't celebrate Halloween. It's not one of our
holidays. And my son was in fourth was four and he was in preschool at a Montessori
School in Iowa where we were living and the teacher was really in the Halloween like he
was coming home every day with a new song creepy crawly witches, just you know, and
the whole classroom is decorated and you know ghosts and you know and we don't
believe we don't believe in that. And I, I I think I sent a note or something saying like he
won't be doing that part of the celebration. I can't remember the details, but I said
something that came back to me that that teacher said that the reason I want to ruin her
fun is because I'm so oppressed as a woman because I'm Muslim. That's what she said.
And so, and she was a feminist. And that's what she thought that she would she thought
11
she like like how twisted right so this woman thought that the reason I didn't want my
son to have fun with Halloween and learn ghost songs was because I'm oppressed and
I don't know how to have fun, and therefore I'm trying to be controling of her. And, and
that was so sad. Like, that's so sad because she, we were sisters, like, we believe in a
lot of the same rights for women. And yet she assumed that I was oppressed because
my husband's from Pakistan, my current husband's from Pakistan. So she meant, you
know, and I, I hate that, I hate that, that happened to hate that that's how people think.
You know, and you know, and quite honestly, in my marriage, I am more domineering
than my husband. You know, and, and he's raised and born and raised in a Muslim
country, and we're both Muslim, but you know, I mean, there's certain things about
providing and certain prescribed things in religion that are, you know, are there that are
really, I think, really great in terms of what the rules are, but but they're not designed to
make the woman a slave. They're designed to have an equal distribution of labor where,
you know, if the woman is doing more work inside the house, and the man is doing
more work outside of that's the model, but even so, in Islam, it says that the woman. So
if both people are income earners, and this makes some men mad. If so, if I make
100,000, he makes 100,000. His job is to provide for the family, mortgage, utilities,
groceries, gas, clothes for the kids, clothes for me. That's, that's, that's in the Quran to
provide for your family. The woman can choose if she wants to put part of her money
back into the pot or she wants to keep it all for herself. It is hers. It is not. And that's like
sort of revolutionary. You know, in America most the model is 50/50. You know, and,
and certainly women do share. It's not that, you know, Muslim women walk around
keeping all their money to themselves and don't, you know, but but but the reality is, is
that it's her choice, it's her choice, you know? So, again, that's another piece where
people don't know about it. The best way I've seen people come to the table is the
interfaith work that's being done. But But the people who are coming to that table are
already open, and really who we want to try to bridge is the ones who hate hate us. I
spent time doing production in Orlando where I lived before Iowa, which was called the
Faith Club. The book. Have you heard of it? It's a famous book. It was written, I think, in
the early 90s, about three women. And they were real, real people. And it was a Jewish
woman, a Christian woman and a Muslim woman. And I think they shared a bus stop, or
they're in the same neighborhood anyway, they became friends. And their kids went,
you know, I can't remember the details or roots of the story. But this book is about how
they got together and talked about their religions and became friends. And, you know,
all three very different, and I played the part of the Muslim woman. I think her name was
Rania, from Palestine. And then we had a Jewish woman from New York play the
Jewish part and we had a, I think, an Episcopal pastor play the Christian woman. And
we went to different churches to perform this play, and then afterwards, we would do a
talk back my backgrounds in theater. So it was really fun for me. And people came and
12
and this was in, like 2010 to 12. So kind of the beginnings of where we are now with
extreme Islamophobia was, you know, back then it was starting to, I mean, it really
since 9/11. But it was the beginnings of the idea of terrorists, all Muslims are terrorists.
And not the beginnings but the roots of it were really, really strong there. I'd say the
roots were really 2002 after 9/11. But anyways, so some of the people in the audience
were not really, they were in a church, and they were mostly of the faith body of the
church to come see the show, but they showed up, you know, but some of those people
were really the ones that I was happy where they are because they wouldn't have come
if it had been an interfaith event outside of their church. And they probably wouldn't
have come if it had been Muslims talking because we were an interfaith present and we
were theater, you know, theater can be more safe, you come and watch, you don't have
to participate. And I got some of those questions like, you know, why do women have to
cover their head? And why do why do they be? Why don't Muslim men beat their wives?
You know, these people were they were asking, but they were asking, and I was so
happy to be able to answer, you know, and I, I am not like I said, I'm not a scholar, not
an expert, but anytime I get invited to talk or I love to be able to share, like, not well,
actually, they're wrong. You know, I mean, the people who do terrorists acts are really
not Muslim, they're there, they become lost. You know, we see that lost in the ways of
Shaitan that Satan has dragged them away from, from the path of the of the love of
God, you know, so, so I was able to share that with them and I felt good and, and they
weren't like angry at me like I was able to talk and communicate in a way that they,
hmm, they can see me out but gave them like a little like, oh, maybe culture is stronger
than we know. And maybe, you know, maybe it's not the religion we should hate, you
know, maybe it's people who are misled so that I think that keeping talking and keeping
opportunities for, but how now like how now do we reach with this divisive environment?
You know, how do we reach across with the hate, you know, because safety is that
concern to you know, but...
Mackenzie Ray 44:41
Yeah, so a lot of that is like Islamophobia and there is this fear and this hate that
creates this big divide. Do you think you coming from a Christian background helps you
bridge this divide even more?
Sarah Kiani 44:58
I think it's twofold. I think that one could someone who is in a hateful place could say
that I'm a trader, right? That I'm, that I'm evil, you know that I've left the, you know, the
evangelical perspective that I'm going straight to hell, you know, so that that but but but
on the other side, yes I'm white, I'm tall. I'm from St. Paul, I don't look Muslim I, I cover
myself in terms of my body but I've chosen that, you know, I don't cover my head. So I
13
often when I talk I say that, you know, we talked about like the idea of passing. So I
easily can pass as a non Muslim unless I choose to out myself which I take every
opportunity I can to tell people that I'm Muslim, and usually what the response is silence
from people who who don't understand Islam, but they, they just, hmmm, you know, but
I think that I am in a unique position to advocate and share because I look like a lot of
the people who are hating Islam. So, you know if I can, you know, and the reality is
we're not different from each other, like, what makes us different because I practice my
religion and my relationship with God different than you. What, who cares? Like why
does that matter? Why is that threatening? You know what if it is it's threatening, that's
on you, then you have an issue because Who are you to come into my soul world and
and say that my relationship with God is wrong. Like that's just to me the ultimate
violation of privacy. Yeah.
Mackenzie Ray 46:41
Um we had a lot here. I love that we go on tangents. Hm, I'm just going to take a little
break here.
Alright, so we're back from a break. Um, so my off of what you talked about bridging the
divide. Where do you think we can go from from this point on?
Sarah Kiani 47:08
So I mean, it like it was saying it's a very hard place that we're in right now, because of
the level of hate and the level of really, I mean, the saddest tragedy of it is, is rooted and
misinformation and misunderstanding. And so any opportunity we can get people to the
table, because I don't I really don't believe that the people who are supporting our
president fervently right now are all bad people. As much as it's easy to think like that. I
think that there's a lot of love there. But but there's a lot of misunderstanding. And so,
you know, really, interfaith work has been really kind of an emerging field. It's been
emerging dialogue for the last well from my life in the last 10 years. It's been you know,
as I've been a Muslim, but even before that, it needs we need more. You know, so as
like humans, we have to create opportunities to talk to each other more, no matter how
much we disagree, because we can't speak to each other right now like, you know, and
you know that that's the beautiful thing about the Faith Club is is women are sharing
like, well in my tradition it's this and my tradition is this. And then I see some similarities
you know and like in the stories of Islam, like we have Mary, Maryam, we have Jesus,
Isa prophet. We have I mean we have so many we have way more in common than we
have apart. And and as much as I said some bad things about the culture of some of
the countries were predominantly some beautiful. I mean, I loved Tunisia, that was the
warmest place I've ever been in my entire life is terms of hospitality. Open Arms,
14
greeting, kindness, compassion, love for family. And that's true with a lot of these
countries where people are coming from that that are on the list that they shouldn't be
here. These are the warmest cultures in the in the world in terms of welcoming and
hospitality in the idea of what it means to be a host. And and so if we can host more, I
think I think I do think as a Muslim right now in America, I personally feel a responsibility
to try to share the truth of Islam to create understanding and decrease the hate.
Because it's really easy for people to stay in darkness and in a hateful place, when
they're all the same. Because, you know, that's how how atrocities across time have
happened that there has been a brainwashing or a group of people who all think the
same and they don't, they're not forced to, to look someone in the eye across the table
and say, I hate you. Do you really hate me? Or do you hate what you think I believe,
because that's not actually what I believe, you know, and so trying to, you know, I'd love
to see more opportunities for young people and old people to get together and talk, you
know, so I think this project is a great place to start. And maybe it's just the beginning,
hopefully.
Mackenzie Ray 50:07
I hope so too, well thank you very much for sharing your story. It was beautiful and
emotional and lovely. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Do you have any closing
thoughts?
Sarah Kiani 50:19
I just I appreciate being part of this project. I hope that this archive can be a living
resource. I love oral history as a tool to teach and I appreciate you involving me.
Mackenzie Ray 50:31
Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
15
Show less
Transcript of Oral History Interview with Salma Awil, 2021
Abstract: The transcript of an oral history interview with Salma Awil, a first year at Augsburg
University. Awil discusses her identities as a Somali Muslim woman. She also talks to us about
how these identities shape her lens of th... Show more
Transcript of Oral History Interview with Salma Awil, 2021
Abstract: The transcript of an oral history interview with Salma Awil, a first year at Augsburg
University. Awil discusses her identities as a Somali Muslim woman. She also talks to us about
how these identities shape her lens of the world today. This oral history project was conducted
by a student at Augsburg University and submitted in partial fulfillment of a course taught by Dr.
Maheen Zaman.
Zakariya Abdullahi 0:00
Hmm ... so my name is Zakariya Abdullahi and the date is March 29 2021. Salma can you
introduce ... wow ... Salma can you please state your full name and age?
Salma Awil 0:12
Hi. My name is Salma Said Awil, I'm a freshman here at Augsburg University.
Zakariya Abdullahi 0:18
Awesome. Alright, so Salma of them ask a bunch of questions. Feel free to answer as in depth as
you'd like, or you can make it short as you want. So the first question is, What did you have for
either breakfast or lunch today?
Salma Awil 0:32
I'm not really a morning personality really breakfast like that, even though it's like the first major
meal. But I had coffee. Yeah. My iced. What do I get? Starbucks? doubleshot. Nice.
Zakariya Abdullahi 0:47
Yeah. What? Are you in coffee feen?
Salma Awil 0:48
Yes.
Zakariya Abdullahi 0:49
Okay. That's fair. Okay. So next I'm asked you about just where you were born, where you were
raised. So like, Where were you born?
Salma Awil 0:57
I was born here in St. Louis Park, at Saint Methodist Hospital
Zakariya Abdullahi 1:04
Okay. And then were you raised here (MN)?
Salma Awil 1:06
Yeah, I was raised here most of my life, honestly.
Zakariya Abdullahi 1:09
Okay. Were you raised in like different cities within Minnesota or?
Salma Awil 1:11
Minneapolis ... the metro area
Zakariya Abdullahi 1:14
Okay. And then, um, have you ever traveled abroad? If so, where?
Salma Awil 1:19
I did, so I traveled. What year was it? 2013 to 14 I traveled to. So it was me as we did like a
family vacation. It was me, my mom like the whole family. We went up to abroad to Europe. We
stayed at London for like, I think two weeks. It turned into like a family vacation. Then we went
to Dubai stayed there about like two to three weeks was beautiful. And so I want to go back. So
after that we went to so this is a funny story. So we made it. My mom's like, I have to go see my
sister. I haven't seen her like, two to three years is that time I'm like, okay, so we all agreed to on
like Kenya. And then my mom told me "we're gonna stay at the beautiful part of Kenya". So
okay, so we stayed there. And then my mom, apparently she loved it. So she was like, I want to
extend it out. And I was like, Huh, so me, my sister is like my brother. We're like, Okay, well let
it fly. But we have to go back to school. And I'm like, yeah, that's fine. And then let alone that
she had planned out our school, like where were going to stay. And then she didn't tell us
because my aunt she was like, Yeah, because you're staying here for another year. And I'm like,
it's just what some other stuff. Yeah, like, why, but I was like, I want apparently she loved to
play so much. So she was like, she talks to my arm, her sister. And she was like, Is there any
good schools like schools around ... Dugsi like Sunday school. And she was like, me, she felt
like enrolled all of us in. And then she was like, one day you came to listen, because we're saying
that was our aunt. And then our aunt was like, she was like, yeah, guys are gonna stay here for
another year. I already enrolled in school, you know, already got your uniform. Like, she got
everything aligned. It was like smack in the face. And me and my siblings were like, huh, what?
pause. And then my mom was like, yeah, we're gonna stay here. for another year. I did like a
whole lease my visa and everything. She got that situated. And I'm like, Oh, no, we're not. We're
me. We had a whole day fit, like a whole argument. And I'm like, I don't want to be here. I am
not from here. I don't know. Like, I don't know, language, Swahili. And it's like, Swahili people
like Kenyatte people are very mean. Like, if you move like speaking English, they only look at
these little Americans look at these brands. So it's like, I was like, I don't fit in and I'm like,
please take back. I want to go back to school. I want to see my friends.
Zakariya Abdullahi 3:44
Right. And how old were you at this time?
Salma Awil 3:46
I was 13 I believe 12, 13, 15 I'm not sure I was around that age. And I didn't really like it.
Unfortunately for me, my sisters are pretty old. They're older than me. So they just took a flight
out there like we are not staying.
Zakariya Abdullahi 4:01
Oh, yeah, you're left behind.
Salma Awil 4:04
I got me in my younger siblings and my brother we got left behind. Well my two sisters like
autograph saying no, we it's supposed to be the stuff on vacation just you know stay there for two
probably three just you know enjoy the weather and then go back but there was this was gonna
be that agreement. And my mom was like No, I love it here. We're gonna stay up there pretty
grown so my mom was like if you guys want to go back that's up to you you know totally but
you kids I am in charge. So you're gonna say
Zakariya Abdullahi 4:31
yeah, so did you live in Eastliegh when
Salma Awil 4:35
no at first were staying in South Sea? So the good part of Kenya and then my mom was like,
Okay you guys are need to see the real life like Kenya. This is are too Americanized. That's what
she said. I am like hooyo, no, we're not. I love to here. I don't want to be like mud, like smelling
all that sewer. I am like no. So she took us after staying because my aunt. She really had Like a
big, like guest house cause Kenya they own these really big houses. So she had a guest house
that we're staying in. And my mom was that, okay, she rented out an apartment in Eastliegh she
said, You guys need to live experience like, see what is to, you know, Eastliegh, instead of just
being a preppy, little. So she was like now so she took us to sleep after like staying like, four
months in. So we were staying in that guest house for like four minutes for me for months. And
then afterwards, we left. And then we stayed there for she pushed it out, like a year and a half.
So, four months, being in a nice, nice guesthouse to like living in sleep for a year now. Like, a
year, I'll say yeah.
Zakariya Abdullahi 5:48
So how's that like living in Eastliegh?
Salma Awil 5:50
Oh, it was really eye opening. Like the culture, the people how they interact with each other, like
if you see two like people walking down this, you know, sidewalk. We (Americans) say excuse
me, you know, you know, please move to somewhere there's no such thing as excuse me, they
will bum into you. And I got, like, bumped into the floor so many times. And I'm like, you gotta
toughen up there is no such thing as excuse me. . And I'm like, okay, yeah. So after we moved
into Eastliegh, we got into like Sunday, you know, Dugsi, school. And over there. It's like, even
though we have some like private schools here, where do you Where are you being used on wear
uniform? Over there? Like all the schools all the Sunday schools are we are we wearing
uniform? And that was like, Monday through like Monday through Sunday? Yeah, I only had
like a day off like my mom's right. And to me, it was that but it was really it was really fun. Like,
I loved like, one thing. I'm not regretting that went there. And I honestly loved it. Because I came
back here with new eyes. Like, I felt more appreciate what I had it here because it's like, I see
little kids, you know, that don't really have that much insight compared to what I have and I am
like alx. You know, I'm thankful for what I have. And my parents provided me and looking back
and I was like, I'm very grateful, honestly, because it's people write their display off, you know,
selling little bananas, mangoes on the street just to make the living by and I'm like, and I
complain about the little thing like, for Starbucks in suits. I don't like my drink. It's too nasty. Oh.
So just over there and seeing how they live and how I'm living here. Alhamdulillah I'm grateful.
Zakariya Abdullahi 7:36
Yeah. I mean, I think in Kenya, you also get to see like, especially Eastliegh, like you see the
people that live on top of like the big trash warnings.
Salma Awil 7:44
They're called. They're called. What was the name for? inaudible?
Zakariya Abdullahi 7:48
What?.
Salma Awil 7:49
inaudible, right?
Zakariya Abdullahi 7:51
That's in Somali, right?
Salma Awil 7:52
No, no, no, no, in Eastliegh like, people that will live on top of trash. Yeah, so that means
inaudible are so since here, we call it homelesses. Like they're homeless. They're word over there
is inaudible,
Zakariya Abdullahi 8:07
That's actually well
Salma Awil 8:09
there, we're staying there. I learned the language. Swahili.
Zakariya Abdullahi 8:12
So did you speak now? Or
Salma Awil 8:14
no, I kind of like I know if like few words like inaudible. That means a little bit. You know?
What's the word was inaudible that means that I'm very good.
I think I don't know my
my swahili is bad. Like I understand, you know, a few things here and there. Because over there,
we had like a maid. And she taught me Swahili, despite me going to school, it was really hard for
me. So she taught me like, I'll teach me teach me English. And I'll teach Swahili. So I was like,
perfect. So I was the only one in my family that learned it to quick that my mom should pick that
up. But my siblings, like I'm not learning. They're like, no, so I came back here. And it's like, I
had no one to speak at work. So I completely forgot. You know, if you don't like practice in your
speaking you're going to forget it eventually.
Zakariya Abdullahi 9:00
.No, that's true. What do you say is like, was the difference between kind of living in Kenya
where, especially in Eastliegh, where you lived among like Muslims versus here in St. Louis
Park, I think St. Louis Park as a huge, like Jewish community. So like, and just in Minnesota in
general versus living in a more like, Muslim populated country.
Salma Awil 9:21
I would say over there. Since the part that we lived in Slee we had a mosque near us like msgid.
And that was like, because our apartment was like, right next to the next door to the message. So
every morning, like I said, we were here that time, everything so it's like, we never miss Paris a
lot. Like every time we would hear it and then my either walked invested, or just prayer at home
and just listen, because we would hear but coming back here. It's like really hard because we got
so used to, you know, the fetcher actually, you know, the hook, so we all hear that. So it's like
compared to coming back here. It's like really hard to getting it back to it. So that was really hard
for me to adjust. Because like Marshalls beautiful like, every time I hear a comment, I say, Come
back to here. It's like nothing, you know. Hopefully you can hear or my mom telling me to pray.
But coming over there, it's like you can hear through the windows. Yeah.
Zakariya Abdullahi 10:21
And then, so this is kind of getting away from the center theme of the traveling, but so like, how
has your like, faith influenced your life? Like being hijab and all that, like just being Muslim?
How's that?
Salma Awil 10:36
Honestly, it's
beautiful. I love it. My friends, I work at Starbucks, right? And make sense? Yeah. Yes, it's a
coffee. Um, so I have their I think they're Christian, I believe. Yeah. So they asked me, so I have
a Muslim friend, but she doesn't cover up like she's show there. And I have another Christian
friend. We all work together. And then one day, we were out and she asked me, you know, how
is it wearing Hijab? Since you know, there's a lot some phobia going on? You know, how do you
feel about that? I'm like, honestly, I am partnered with one person that, you know, call me on and
what, Andrew how under there, and I'm like, into call, aren't you calling? So beautiful, I love it.
So it's like having that refreshing talk someone saying, like, you know, it's like, honestly, it's a
we live in a free country, even though people still criticize you, and judge you and will get you a
certain way. At the end of the day. It's like, honestly, that's their opinion. And I can do that I feel,
you know, contempt with myself, and I feel really good. So it's, it's honestly, it's a blessing, it's
beautiful, you know, to live within a community, you know, having, even though with having
diverse friends, it's like, me trying to, you know, explain to them, you know, it's my choice, my
religion, and I decided to even though with my friend, she's Muslim, she, you know, she calls her
when she's praying. But she, that's her choice and in the name, looking out, for this thing, good to
see from a different person, you know, perspective from a person that is Muslim, but she doesn't
cover up as I do. And she doesn't like, so how does that, like me seeing her faith in her, like, you
know, how she see things and compared to my view, and it's honestly beautiful, like, wow, okay,
you know, cover up, but you know, we still believe in the same face.
Zakariya Abdullahi 12:27
And then, what is the value that you hold dearly?
Salma Awil 12:32
Good question.
A value that I hold dearly?.
Zakariya Abdullahi 12:46
If you can't think of one that's fine.
Salma Awil 12:50
value?
Can you example
Zakariya Abdullahi 12:57
for example, like, if I had to think about something that holds really, I would say like, generosity
is it's something that I really value. So like, being generous with your money, time, all that stuff.
People might be like, honesty is a huge value. All that.
Salma Awil 13:13
I would say, respect is a big thing for me. I don't care like what color what race, you know, what
religion you practice, respect is a huge thing for me, like, like, me seeing things like for example,
I was at a coffee shop, right? And I see this guy, he was white. And he the guy who's an old gray,
was when I was like, 16, it seems like a bad guy hammered down. Like, there was no seats. So
and then was pretty was like it was for this is before COVID before COVID. So he was, um,
there was no seats, and I was gonna get up out of my seat for him. Because, you know, he had a
cane, he couldn't really sit, so I was gonna get out of my seat for him. But this white guy was
right in front of me. He just, it was like me and two other girls. So it's like, it's a bunch of us with
em. I'm thinking as a guy, you know, he's going to get up this respect, because he's the older guy,
you know, get out of the seat for him. But no, he looked at him and like, in the guy asked them,
Hey, can you please can I see sit here just for a little bit, you know, my back is hurting. And like
I look just looked up and I was like, No, but the whole attitude. I'm like, Oh, God, I can't say,
you know, you could have said it. No, sir. What either, you know, you kind of just politely say,
No, I can't No, I'm sorry. I'm gonna sit here. But it's like he said in a rude way. And I'm like, he's
older than you knew he could be your father. So it's like, I was like, No, that's like a huge thing.
Respect. Respect your elders. You know, I was taught that when I was younger, expect you
know anyone, you know, even though they could be a mother at the end days. Just respect. A
really big thing.
Zakariya Abdullahi 14:57
I definitely agree with you on that. And then how has your smallie slash Muslim identities
shaped the way that you interact with people different from you?
Salma Awil 15:09
Um,
it hasn't been really like, how I interact with people honestly. With my so my community on
obviously has been good. Honestly, I got I haven't had any difficulties with that, even with like
interacting with like, white people, black people, you know, people of color is honestly hasn't
been hard. It's like, it depends on who you are in your personality. That's how I see it. Yeah, so
it's on one day I had a meeting with another meeting, but I interacted with two white girls. I was
at the mall shopping this I think was like Black Friday. And we just met because she said I love
your coat because I was wearing what was I wearing?
I think I was ready to go back to the mall.
Yeah, I was at the wedding party because I was picking up order from Macy's and I was reading
about teen a cute little cardio Puma. And she said, Oh my god, I love your dress. I love your
culture. And I'm like, I was I think she's like, what is this? I
don't like it's about.
I was like I say, it's something that we stay home and I'm like, she loved it is just explaining my
culture and who she is. She was like, I honestly love it. And ever since then we've interacted like
last two nights ago. We're at her house doing like a facial thing, because that's how well we are
interacting. She's like, well, she invited me to her house. We had masks on six feet apart. But it
was like just interacting with people. And it's like, getting to like no other people even just
outside me because she loved my dress my flesh body. She loved and that's how we interact in
my now we communicate. Right? She was like, oh my i love it. Now we like potluck friends
come in new friends. Right? due to culture wise.
Zakariya Abdullahi 16:57
I was gonna say so what have you learned from her though? Like, I feel you're teaching her a lot.
Salma Awil 17:01
Yeah, um, she she did put me on with her. She owns a facial company with skincare routine. And
she helped me with my skincare. Like, that's one thing. I've benefited from her skin. She owns
her. I think it's a whole vegan thing. Like I don't really remember. But she owns her own
company. She helped me with skincare. And I told her what problems I have my face, you know,
due to masks, because that's really not good for the face. So she helped him with gave me
products to use try out and it's like, we both benefit anyways. It was really good. It's beautiful.
Zakariya Abdullahi 17:43
So what are some challenges that you face as a Somali Muslim woman in Minnesota, but also
what are like some victories and wins? You kind of mentioned that you're like, I'm always vibing
out like, you don't have a problem with people, which is nice. So that could be something else.
But like, what are some challenges overall?
Salma Awil 18:03
I wouldn't be lying if I say I'm having challenges, but one challenge would be
Zakariya Abdullahi 18:15
okay, so question, man, then maybe hopefully, we can dig in what high school did you go to?
Did you go to a predominantly white high school?
Salma Awil 18:21
Okay, so growing up, my mom, she was very religious. So she didn't really like me going to a
public school. She wanted me to go Somali school, like meaning Martin, you know, charter
school, or like more of like, kids. So she took me to, at first like, when I was growing up, I went
to like, global. And I went to, and I did, and then I switched out went to heritage. I don't know if
you heard this cousin. Yeah, I went there, like growing up from like middle school to like,
halfway my high school year, I went to heritage, and that was predominantly like, slowly, like
now they try to open up since a bit since before it was a charter school. Now it became public. So
it's like more they're trying to have it diverse. Like with smaller schools, like, like white and
black. Both were coming out. But I transferred out of there because it's like, there's not that much
of like this and atonements opportunities with a small school. I transferred out to Southwest High
School. And I know and that's more diverse. And it's like, well, it comes with opportunity, but
I'm over staying at with compared to like Southwest it's more diverse compared to heritage and
that's like all Somali school. I loved it. I loved having like, you know, Somali friends like most
of like, basically the whole class of Somali compared to Southwest, it's Asian, non Hispanic, you
know, black Somali, white, compared to heritage that's just all Somali. Right. It was beautiful.
But you know, I love both experiences because I got to meet meet new friends meet new people.
And just it's kind of a little bit hard when you're in school. Like one thing I would say, me
transferring into a new school I don't know anybody was a little bit hard. Just you know, being
Somali Muslim girl is being there for I think it took like one elective was AP, and also on the
back end. Yeah, I was the only covered like, Somali girl. And then I was always losing the AP
class. And as I looked at them, and I'm like,
Zakariya Abdullahi 20:28
start looking around,
Salma Awil 20:29
I had to pull my white perky boys to like fit in. And it was really hard. Compared to my other
school, my heritage. I sit down there, buddy, like, it's my people. Like, I love this, like I get to, it
wasn't really hard to interact with psi. And I'm gonna say it was hard to interact. But it was like,
it was really easy and going with, you know, staying at Heritage was also my kids. And it's
compared to Southwest. And it's I was in that class, and I was the only black person there. That's
really hard to fit in, like just comfortably I can only black. Right? And it's all
Zakariya Abdullahi 21:02
white people. That was really hard. And then I had a similar experience. So I was gonna ask you
two questions. One was, how to like, how was the transition? Like, you know, like, you
mentioned, it was hard, but like, like, culturally as well, because like, we all live in Minnesota.
When do you think like, we all have the same, like, you know, we go through the same stuff, we
watch the same TVs and like, shows and that type of stuff? Like, were you still able to like when
you came into Southwest? Were you like, you know, able to click with other kids there? Or was
it? Did you feel like, the odd one out?
Salma Awil 21:35
Um, no, not really, it was a little bit harder. At first because it was just me, but I finally
convinced one of my friends over heritage, I told her to transfer with me. So don't be the only
little duckling at the school like I was the new kid. So I need her so I can just, you know, have
someone from my past, you know, just be with me. So I have her transferred with me. And like
the first one, two weeks, I think I'll say week, it was really hard to find because it's really big
school. So it's really hard to have classes. And eventually, I met my own little, like, quick, like
the little group on like, Somali girl groans It was really nice at first. It was, at first it was really
hard just to fit in, you know, talk to people on this stuff. It took me a while to just find my group.
But eventually it was, it was a little again, easy.
Zakariya Abdullahi 22:30
Yeah. And then follow up to that. So like, how do you say like, going to her and heritage and
then going to Southwest? How's that influenced your life now? Like who like who makes up the
most demographic of your friends like is all Somalis and Muslims are like, some guns or white
people black people is a diverse or what is your friend group
Salma Awil 22:50
right now? It's not part of one's life friend. Oh, well. Yeah, I want more storage for that. Another
time for that. But I at first throughout my high school, my senior year of high school, it was
mostly what problems they did tend towards family friends. And the most were like, I had Asian
values. I have a don because I was in this city wide student leader group, where I would go there
every after school.
Zakariya Abdullahi 23:23
And it was
Salma Awil 23:25
it was really diverse to have like, I was like the only Somali girl in that city life. Like a student
leader, we we talk about, like what problems we can solve within the Minneapolis Public
Schools. Well, we can fake so be I was in that group. And I was on the small girl. So it's like,
really? That was that? What made me have more? More like, you know, within having Somali
friends, it was like a bond. But after high school, you know, they said, you'll find your true
friends after high school, you start to lose them. And that was just at that time. You know, when
we're at high school, I found my little clique and then it ended, right right after high school, but
for now, it's gone. Like probably one something like band aids and it's like diverse, Asian, black.
Hispanic. Yeah. No, when
Zakariya Abdullahi 24:19
you say black, you mean like African American, African American. I wasn't asking something I
forgot. Oh, so your first year right? Yeah. First year started in September. Obviously, you haven't
been on campus too much.
Salma Awil 24:34
probably been on campus twice. This is like my second time. First time like to pick up my ID
and stay far away. Again, this is a second time being here.
Zakariya Abdullahi 24:43
Um, so I don't know how much this question applied. But how safe Do you feel in your classes
like both Originally, I guess or being on campus physically, or two times.
Salma Awil 24:55
honestly feel safe. I don't really want to give it like Yeah. this is my second time paying her just
like the vibes it's really i feel like security over the campus i feel like it's safe but i'm not gonna
know that for sure until i start coming here for classes i'm not but just by being here the two
times that i was here it was i feel safe
Zakariya Abdullahi 25:19
and then do you feel safe like in your virtual classes too are you like is it like high school where
you were looking around you're like oh while i'm lonely
Salma Awil 25:27
no no no i think that's a totally different for now because i'm you know diverse and i need to see
more other people and practice being you know african you're not kidding in there but it was i
feel like pretty safe in my virtual classes
Zakariya Abdullahi 25:45
and then i was gonna ask you are you involved with anything in augsburg whether that's like msa
pasu trio any of that stuff
Salma Awil 25:55
oh no yeah but i want to probably later on not right now and because of this busy with the house
family and work on those just over on my right now but i definitely want to get to that in the near
future you know probably try it msa because i was in my msa in high school i was a part of that
and i still want to be involved with it is variable probably not now but later
Zakariya Abdullahi 26:24
okay hopefully final questions so we seem like somali minnesotans are like one of the like the
most like successful immigrants to come in and like successful in terms of like i think we've been
doing that too but i wouldn't say like if you think about like how many immigrant communities
are in minnesota and like how fast somalis are moving within minnesota like politics and like the
economy and everything like somalis are doing a pretty good job so what do you think is like the
future of minnesota looks like for for somalis and for muslims yeah
i feel like
Salma Awil 27:04
like okay so i feel like salons like within our community and within the muslim community i feel
like we're gonna prosper and grow like honestly i've seen some people from africa that don't have
anything come here and they write two months there they got 10 times like
Zakariya Abdullahi 27:22
wow nothing
Salma Awil 27:24
less like what like mashallah you really grinding in you know all about that bag but like and it's
like mashallah it's beautiful it's like how quick we come here to work you know to get an
education you know to get somewhere within our lives and we are shallow we do that fast thing a
little bit within our community it's like we help each other you know someone's down with
someone who's doing this you know we all come together and help each other to help that person
grow and that will be even within the you know muslim community with different cultures and
different backgrounds and i thought that's beautiful that we do that and i've seen that here with
you know living in minnesota for so many years like i seen that with different cultures because i
have other adult friends and me her telling me about all this person you know they're not really
doing well or is it you know they're not doing i suppose like how they see their families they
come together and just help that person
Zakariya Abdullahi 28:15
is beautiful yeah so like the community is very well
Salma Awil 28:18
yes well very good clinic
Zakariya Abdullahi 28:19
that's beautiful all right and then finally is there anything else that you'd like to share with
Salma Awil 28:27
you a fun fact
i can
i can when i was younger i always had like a train that i wanted to learn different languages like
other than you know somali english right um and i still want to do that like right now even
though i learned kiswahili like i'm i have like other co workers that are connecting they speak
swahili like i'm like learning how to speak it and it's my code shala i want to lend at least five
masters like i want to master five languages like my two five are somali english can swahili
arabic and spanish
Zakariya Abdullahi 29:12
you know the basics of arabic grace
Salma Awil 29:14
i know the basics
Zakariya Abdullahi 29:16
to build on that yeah not to
Salma Awil 29:18
build on that it's like those are the two ones i really want to build on that because i already know
like when people are speaking swahili i can understand the basics like certain things i can
understand what they're saying like how they just have idea what they're talking about but i still i
kind of forgot so it's like if i build on that right now i could eventually you know learn how to
speak it and right because i used to write and read and again the whole nine yards does too so
inshallah i want to learn myself and give that are my somali it's not all that i only like touch
bases on what i can yeah in' sha allah you know grown
Zakariya Abdullahi 29:56
so build on all that beautiful mashallah i think you can easily do it.
Salma Awil 30:01
It's like a mind over matter. Honestly, if you tell yourself you can't do it, then you can do it right.
If you tell yourself you can do it, you put your mind to it, you can eventually get it.
Zakariya Abdullahi 30:10
All right, awesome. Thank you so much for doing this.
Salma Awil 30:13
Thank you for having me.
Zakariya Abdullahi 30:14
Oh my goodness. Now, this didn't turn out
Show less
Ollie Piotrowski
Okay,
0:00
I guess we can just start with your name and where you're born.
Safiya Balioglu 0:06
Okay, my name is Safiya Balioglu. My official name is Christine. I was born in
Germany. We're like in the southwest area of Germany Black Forest, close to the
Black Forest. So ... Show more
Ollie Piotrowski
Okay,
0:00
I guess we can just start with your name and where you're born.
Safiya Balioglu 0:06
Okay, my name is Safiya Balioglu. My official name is Christine. I was born in
Germany. We're like in the southwest area of Germany Black Forest, close to the
Black Forest. So I was born and raised there. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 0:28
Yeah, I looked up some articles that you were in.
Safiya Balioglu
Okay.
0:34
Ollie Piotrowski 0:34
Um, so I read a little bit about your story, but I read that you converted to Islam
when you were about 23, I think is what the article said.
Safiya Balioglu 0:43
Yes. Yeah that's right. In Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 0:47
What, what encouraged you to do so?
Safiya Balioglu 0:54
Do you want the long or the short version of this story
Ollie Piotrowski 0:56
The long story, I'm all for stories.
Safiya Balioglu 1:00
What encouraged me?
Well, I'll start a little bit before because I was when I was in high school. I had
this friend who was then my best friend, and we both attended a church group. Once
a week, where youth or young youth, teenagers got together, talked about a certain
subject they picked.And some Bible verses, sing songs together, pray together and
stuff. So I saw as part of that group, I don't remember how long but I guess it was
maybe two years or something like that. And even before that, when I was younger, I
was kind of looking for some guidance, maybe?I always believed in God. And I got
myself a Bible and I started reading the Bible. My family is not religious at all.
I have two siblings. I'm the oldest one and we grew up celebrating Christmas and
Easter, but just because that's what you do when you call yourself Christian. But I
was pretty much the only one who wanted to go to church wanted to have a connection
with God over the religion. So then when I found this youth group, I thought I
found, you know, my way in life kind of, but as I continued, going to those get
togethers or meetings or whatever you want to call that, I still felt like
something was missing. I, it didn't feel whole to me. Like maybe like, it felt like
a piece missing in a puzzle. Like it felt kind of like that. And I couldn't
pinpoint what exactly it was. I, I had some trouble understanding some theological
concepts in Christianity that I asked the group about and other people or even the
pastor who did like a class when I was in high school. But the answers were not
really to my satisfaction. So I kept struggling with that. And then I I met my, now
husband, in my last year of high school, which is great, which was great, 13 at the
time, we took the same biology course. And he's from Turkey. So he's a born Muslim.
And I started being curious about, you know, I started asking him about his
religion and stuff and the traditions and he tried to answer but not to as much
detail as I wanted to know. So then, after we finished high school, we went off to
college, in separate cities, and he was roommates with two other Turkish guys where
he studied and one of them was a really dedicated practicing outgoing Muslim. So I
got in a lot of into a lot of conversation. with him, because I figured, wow, this
guy knows a lot about his religion, I should ask him. So, and the answers I got
from him were really just answering everything that I had questions about. And he
also was able to answer, like, in a way that that I was able to understand who God
was who Jesus was in Islam, and it really made sense to me. And then he explained
about the five daily prayers and that really drew me in I really felt like that
attracted me the most. So I don't know how long it took a few months, maybe or I
don't really remember. But after many, many conversations with him and going back
to, to my husband and telling him about those conversations, I told both of them
that I really wanted to become Muslim, that I really felt that this makes sense to
me. And it answered all my questions. It kind of felt like I found that missing
puzzle piece. So it all came together. So that's when I decided to, to convert to
Islam. And there was when I was 23. I was I was in college at the time.
Ollie Piotrowski 6:42
That's really dope. Sorry.
So you went, so you lived in Germany? You were born in Germany. What was it like
living as a Muslim woman in Germany?
Safiya Balioglu 6:56
That's a very good question. So once I became Muslim. I started with the daily
prayers right away. And you have to cover up before the prayers. But I didn't yet
wear the hijab outside. So once I was Muslim, that roommate of my husband that I
had all these conversations with, introduced me to some Muslim women in the
community. And the first Muslim woman he introduced me to was a Tunisian student.
And I'm still in touch with her today. So I, I kind of took it upon myself to learn
how to pray. And you're supposed to, to say the words in Arabic. You could use your
own language, but I really wanted to learn the Arabic parts of it to make it more
authentic, I guess so used to go to her to kind of memorize short passages of the
Quran to be able to pray and all the other short pieces that you see during the
prayer. And at the time I was commuting back and forth to college. It was like a
half hour train ride. So I used to memorize all these parts when I was on the train
and then go back to her and she would correct my pronunciation and stuff and helped
me understand what it meant. So that's how I started out I thought that was the
most important part of the faith one of the pillars and yeah, so I wanted to be
able to do the prayer is correctly so I did that for about a year and kept talking
to that Muslim woman about the hijab too and about the role of Muslim woman and all
that and she always told me to take my time before I put on the hijab because she
thought she, yeah, she she told me it was a big responsibility and it will be a big
change for me for my family for you know, when I go out and stuff, so she always
told me to take my time. So it took me about a year and then I thought I was ready
and I started wearing the hijab in public too, needless to say, it was a big
change. Yeah. So my family, my, especially my parents, I talked to them about
converting to Islam and everything and my dad took it pretty well. He He told me if
you know if this was what I wanted to do and how I wanted to live my life that will
be okay with him. My mom had a hard time. Especially once I started wearing the
hijab she was worried she thought my husband would take me to some remote village
in Turkey and she would never see me again. You know, those like, stereotypical
thoughts that people have about Muslims and Islam and, and my parents never met a
Muslim. They've never heard much about Islam. They were not interested in religion.
So it was all very new to them. So she had those fears in the back of her mind.
When I went out in public, in Germany, I had some very interesting experiences,
people yelling at me, industry. Go back where you are. We came from, and I'm like,
I was born and raised here. I'm from here. Where do you want me to go? Exactly. So
I, yeah, so that happened to me quite often. Also people cutting in front of me
when I stood in line at a grocery store or any other store, people talking to me in
sign language, because they assumed I don't speak German. And I always figured out
what they wanted to tell me. So I spoke back to them in German in the dialect. They
spoke and they were like, shocked to hear me talk German. So yeah, it was
interesting, funny, sometimes annoying. Some of those encounters I thought were
very rude because I'm like, I would never dare to yell at a stranger whose story I
don't know whose life I don't know whose history I don't know. And tell them to go
back where they came from. So at one point, I mean, you kind of shelter yourself
from that when you go outside. I used to like, tell myself, okay, I don't, you
know, I don't care. They can say whatever they want. But then I started to go out
with my children. I have, we have five children. They're all born in Germany. And I
used to go out with them to take them to the playground and stuff and people would
like pass by and by me and shake their heads at me. I'm like, really, you have to
do that. You don't know me. You know, I didn't do anything to you. I'm just walking
here taking my kids out and you judge me just by my looks by what I'm wearing. So
my husband and I used to take the kids out with us to restaurants, but we stopped
doing that at one point because people were just staring and they were so annoying
and and I, I stopped going out to stores with like, more than one child. So it, it
does affect your life. It did affect my life in a certain way. Which I really
thought was sad because because because I'm German, you know, and these are your
own people that kind of act like that. Only because they see me wear something
different than them. Yeah, so I had those experiences in Germany mostly negative. I
had one positive experience. I remember when I was I was sitting on a bench
somewhere by a fountain on a summer day, I think. And the lady walked by and she
told me I admire your courage wearing your, what you're wearing and your
traditional clothing and even though it's hard and whatnot, and you know, and you
might you might get different responses to, to that, but she really kind of told me
that she admired my courage. That was really yeah, I thought that was super nice of
her to say, because that was about the only positive experience that I had living
in Germany since I became Muslim, so I became Muslim in 86. And we moved here to
the US in 98. So about 12 years yeah. from, like, a positive response from a non
Muslim from a German lady, you know, all other experience I had were pretty much
negative except for Turkish immigrants that assumed that I was a traditional ad. So
they started talking Turkish to me. They were lucky because I know Turkish to some
extent, and I can, you know, talk to somebody about some everyday subjects and
stuff. So yeah, but then they were shocked to know that I'm German, actually not
Turkish. So yeah, so that was kind of my experience in Germany.
Ollie Piotrowski 15:47
You mentioned that moving to the US, what was it that really prompted that move?
Safiya Balioglu 15:55
Yeah, we, we moved pretty much because of my husband's job. So he got a job offer,
along with, I think maybe 10 or other people through Siemens. I don't know if you
know that company they do like, I think at the time they focus more on like,
fridges, freezers, dishwashers, like you know those types of things. And I think
they do medical equipment as well. So it's a well known company in Germany. So he
got an offer. He was a software engineer at the time, and he got an offer to come
to the United States. Actually, he got offered three different locations. So one
was, was it it was a New Jersey. The other One was in Tennessee, and the third one
was here in Minneapolis. So, because we've never been to the US, he told them Oh, I
would like to visit all three locations and see which one we like best and, and
they and they said, okay, you can do that. And the first one we visited was
Minneapolis. So we came here in March of 1998. Spring was already like, it was
already spring in Germany. The flowers were starting to come out and was starting
to get green. We come here beginning of March, back to the dead of winter, and I'm
like, Oh my god, where where are we? What is this? I had no idea. So we we landed,
it was snowing, all gray. Everything was worried it was freezing cold. We get to
our hotel. We had our youngest one. With us who was about one and a half at the
time, and we had a stroller with us. While we figured out pretty quickly that it
was useless to have a stroller with your, because you can use it. Yeah. So we were
here for like, I think five days. My husband check out his workplace. And we stayed
in a hotel in Plymouth. And we try to like, figure out if there were any mosques or
any Islamic community, Muslim community here, any community centers, stuff like
that. And we went out shopping, we went to restaurants. The first actually the
first encounter I had with an amazing I was at the airport. It was the guy that
gave us our rental car. So we, we meet him greet him and he's super friendly greets
me ask us how we were doing and I'm like, wait a minute. This man is super
friendly. I was not used to that at all it like, kind of took me back and I'm like,
Okay. This is good. This is a good start. And at the same time, a colleague of my
husband also was there waiting for us. And his reaction when we saw me, was totally
different from the American guy. He was kind of whoops, didn't expect that you
could tell from his facial expression that he was a little surprised to see a woman
in a job in front of him. Guess he didn't know that. My husband had a wife who was
wearing the job. So this was very interesting to see that the two different
reactions. So during our five day with visit, we went to several stores our
restaurant, everybody was so kind and welcoming. They always gave us a high chair
for our son at the restaurant. We went to department stores, they were people
always asking us if we needed help, they were talking to our son. I mean, I was
like, What is going on here? Why is everybody so friendly? And I we talked my
husband and I in the evenings when we get back to the talent we are like, this is
so different from what we are used to And also at my husband's workplace, there was
a lot of diversity. A lot of people from different countries, different
nationalities, whereas in Germany at the German company, he was the only one that
was from a different country, country. Everybody else was German, there was no
diversity. So he always felt like I don't exactly how to put it, but he was the
only one that was different in the whole company. Yeah, so he felt more welcome
here as well at his workplace because he saw, wow, there are other Muslims. There
are, there are Asians there are Americans like there's so much diversity and he
felt like he fit in better. So on the third day or so, of our visit, It was Friday,
and my husband was looking for a place to go to Friday prayers. So we checked out
the phone books and stuff and we found the Islamic center of Minnesota here in
Fridley we got here and turns out this was an Islamic school on the weekdays and on
the weekends. It was Islamic center where they had weekend school, food shelf,
different community things going on. So then they gave my husband an address of a
mosque to go to for Friday prayers, because at the time they didn't have Friday
prayers at the school. Now they do. And I stayed at the school with my son, because
I thought wow, in Islamic school, I need to like see what this is and maybe meet
some people talk to some people So that's what we did. And I think that night, we
decided that we wanted to come here. We didn't need to go to the other two
locations they gave us we said, okay, this is this is our chance to have our kids
learn different language being used in an Islamic school, learning a new culture,
and for us to and it was supposed to be for three years. And we are like, we can do
that three years is not a too long of a time and we'll go back to Germany. And so
we got back home and talked to both our parents and told them about the experience.
And yeah, they encouraged us pretty much to go for it. And we're like, yeah, we'll
come back and well, it's been 21 years. Come back? Yeah, no.
Ollie Piotrowski 24:05
What was the school like?
Safiya Balioglu 24:08
The school at the time was way smaller than it is now. Now it has an expansion
slot. It's like 400 students. Now I think back then, I don't remember how many
students It was around 100? 120, maybe. The school runs from preschool all the way
through high school. But at the time, I think they had maybe two high schoolers or
something like that, whereas now they have a full class of high schoolers graduate
every year. I don't know it was, for me, it was really nice to see like, students
in an Islamic environment with Muslim teachers learning about Islam They had all
the regular subjects that they have in other schools. But on top of that, they had
Islamic studies where they learn about the religion pretty much they had Arabic.
And then they had Quran. memorization of Quran pretty much those three extra
subjects within the regular school day. And I met some teachers, they were all
really super friendly, excited, and we just loved it. At the time, back in Germany,
we were trying to open an Islamic preschool which took us I think, three years to
get through all the official channels. They really throws rocks into our way every
time we met with officials because they were afraid of you know, fundamentalism and
whatnot. Yeah, so it's very hard to do something like that in Germany. Whereas we
found out it's very, pretty easy to like, go and start a school here. You don't
face as much as much adversity as you do in Germany. So, yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 26:27
What did you when you first like, like, moved here? What did you do? Like did you
have a job? Did youSafiya Balioglu 26:35
Well my husband has his job so he was gone all day. Our oldest one starting in
third grade, the second oldest in second grade, and then one in kindergarten and
one in preschool and the youngest one stayed with me at home. He turned to the year
we moved here. So four kids were in school. When I was at home, I was home alone
with a little one. I didn't have a Work Permit so I couldn't work. I didn't work in
Germany either. I was I stayed at home with the kids because I thought that was
important. So first, the first months were pretty hard. Yeah, the kids were all
crying. When we took them to school in the morning, they only knew some basic
English. They didn't have any friends. Everything was new to them. And this was
like two days after we got here. school started. We got here I think August 30.
school started right after labor day. So like 10 days later or something. I thought
it was pretty It was tough.
Ollie Piotrowski 27:46
That's just being thrown in the deep end.
Safiya Balioglu 27:47
Yes. Yeah, it was. It was hard and I questioned our decision like pretty much every
night. Because seeing the kids cry and you have to leave them there. Knowing they
cry and yeah, and I was here home alone with a little one. I we have, we lived in
an apartment back in Germany, pretty much in the middle. Like in the city center. I
had a very good German neighbor that I used to meet pretty much every day. We would
walk together to preschool drop off the kids and pick them up again in the
afternoon. So I come here, sit in a big house the neighborhood is super quiet. You
don't see anybody all day except for the mailman. And on trash days you see the
garbage trucks drive by and that that's about it. I mean, people leave in the
morning for their for work and come back in the afternoon. So it's super quiet. It
was very, very unusual for me. Yeah. All I could do was take maybe walks or Take
the little one out to the playground or to the park or to the backyard. So it's
pretty boring in the beginning. I didn't have a car either. It took like, I don't
know, two or three weeks until I had a car. So I was pretty much stuck at home. But
through the school, I met some Muslim women that live in a neighborhood. And one of
them was a stay at home mom tool. She's from Morocco. So she used to take me out to
the grocery store or department store if I needed to get anything. So yeah, so
maybe once or twice a week, we did that. And after like a couple of months, maybe
our kids started getting more comfortable. They started picking up the language.
They started making friends in school. So it got it started to get a little bit
easier. Which made us as parents more comfortable today. My husband also started to
feel more comfortable at work and it takes time to pick up the language and, you
know, so then once I had a car things were easier because I could go out by myself
and but I still had to get used to, you know, finding my way around. But yeah, that
made things much easier than I was a little bit more flexible and I could go out I
felt like I could go places. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 30:46
I've had a lot of people who moved to Minnesota, even just for a little bit told me
that it was really hard for them to find like friends in the community at first, or
even later on, because while everyone here is very nice they're also very closed
off. Did you have any experience with that?
Safiya Balioglu 31:06
I remember when, before we moved here that some friends of ours would tell us "Oh,
yeah, you know, Americans are very friendly. But it's not easy to make friends with
them." When I, when I came here, I very much appreciated the friendliness and the
kindness of people in the stores and everywhere restaurants, stores anywhere you
go, I mean, really, I I, I don't want to be friends with the with the cashier at
Target, or the server at a restaurant. You know, I just want them to be friendly to
me. And, and that was it. I think being part of the Muslim community made it easier
to make friends because you're already part of the community and the school really,
the school was the place where I made friends first. Yeah. I don't know how it
would have been had I not been Muslim? And would I just have come here to work or
for anything else. I mean, I can imagine that it's harder to make friends than but
being part of the Muslim community really made it easier. You know, I didn't feel
like I felt left out. And also our neighbors. Our next door neighbors. Were
American about the age of my parents. We have two adult daughters and they have
grandchildren. They really welcomed us with open arms here. I mean, I really didn't
know what to expect coming to America. I didn't know anything about Minnesota. I
have never met an American I didn't know how they would feel about having a Muslim
neighbor. From my experience in Germany, I was like, I was kind of cautious. Yeah,
maybe even reluctant to, like go to the neighbors and because I didn't know what to
expect. So when we arrived here from the airport, I think the same day, our
neighbor came over and brought us a plate of cookies to welcome us. I thought that
was like, the nicest thing in the world, I would have never expected something like
that. I mean, that was so sweet. And from that day on, we had a great relationship
with our neighbors. We still do. I mean, we go out for lunches or dinners together.
When I bake something, I bring it over. She does the same thing which when she
bakes we need we both knit so I take her to a meeting room. I mean, it Really, it
really has been amazing that there was really one other thing that made our stay
here. Much easier than I thought it would be. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 34:12
I'm just happy. I'm just glad to hear this.
Safiya Balioglu 34:14
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 34:18
So you've done some work with the IRG? Yes. When did you start getting involved
with them?
Safiya Balioglu 34:25
Let me think. When I, when I first came here, and my kids were in Islamic school,
and I visited the school a couple of times, I noticed that the teachers needed help
there. So I started helping out in the Islamic school first when we came here, so I
kind of volunteer there. And that went on for about seven years. I mean, teachers
needed help correcting homework or research study or whatever else they could take,
so I did that. And then I learned about IRG from one of the parents in the school
who was one of the founders of IRG. And he approached me and said, you know, would
you consider becoming a speaker? We need more speakers and we have so many
presentation requests. It was founded in 2001. Right before 9/11. And after that
9/11 to present the request just poured in. But he approached me much later, don't
exactly remember when. So, I think when did I become a speaker? Maybe in 2006. I
think must I think somewhere around that time I became a speaker. So first when you
become they have a certain process that you go to become a speaker. So you have to
take a training and then you have to shadow speakers to see how yeah, how it goes
how things go and once you feel comfortable, you can present yourself by yourself.
So I started doing that really like that really like going out into the schools and
presenting and took on a lot of presentations. Felt like it was really motivating
to do so it felt like you were able to give back to the community that welcomes
you, you know in the first place. So and then in 2007 Seven or eight. They asked me
if I could become the administrator of IRG, which means I would take care of all
the requests that come in, find speakers for all the speaking engagements and do
all the administration stuff for the organization. So I did. So I took on that job
and did that was able to do this on the computer from home, which was perfect with
the kids and stuff. So I did that for about. I did that for eight years. I was the
administrator of it for eight years. And I was also a board member for I don't know
how many years and the organization grew bigger, the presentation of requests got
more and more and we expanded way more into different areas. So we needed more
speakers. We needed more staff members. It was a lot for one single person, but I
really enjoyed working for them. It was very, very satisfying work, really, I mean,
I did a lot of school presentations and a lot of presentations at community centers
with my husband together. And people who came to those presentations were so
interested. They wanted to know more about Islam and Muslims. they appreciated the
work we do. And it's this is still the case. But then my oldest son got married.
Then my oldest daughter got married, and then grandchildren are on the way. So I
cut down my work, because I started babysitting grandchildren. My daughter in law
started working part time, work, worked part time. And I figured this is I can't do
my job justice. And I am very German in this regard. I only take on a job if I know
I can do it. 100% I don't like to do something. Yeah, only halfway. So I told them,
Look, I'm I've done this for eight years, and I think it's time for me to move on.
I am in in a different place in my life now where I have grandchildren. I really
want to take care of the grandchildren and have a relationship with them. I can
only do that if I don't work anymore. So I I quit my job as admin, as
administrator, I'm still a speaker. And I still love to help out wherever I can.
But I really wanted to focus on family more than at that point. So I think that was
2015. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 40:26
What was it? Like? What was the? what was a? What am I trying to say? What was it?
What was the? How are your children in Germany versus how are they in? Like that's
not how I want to phrase this. Sorry, I'm having trouble articulating myself Um,
did the environment in Minnesota help your kids like being surrounded by people
with their own religion? Did it help them more than it? Then you think it would
have if they had been?
Safiya Balioglu 41:01
Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting question. They were very young. I mean, they were
still young when we came here. And we had them in a regular preschool in Germany
and in a public school, right around right on the other side of the block of our
blog where we live. We discuss this a lot with my husband because my husband came
to Germany when he was 11 years old from Turkey. Went to a public school. There
were no Islamic schools. And he had a hard time, reconciliating between the
environment he experienced in the school and the environment he experienced at
home. His parents were born and raised in Turkey. The kept the Turkish culture
alive while they were in Germany, they were only surrounded by Turkish, other
Turkish families. They both worked and worked with Germans, but their social life
only revolved around the Turkish community. And my husband always told me that he
felt like he was between two worlds. And it was hard for him to explain to his
parents things that were going on in the school and with his friends because they
were raised in a totally different way they didn't. They didn't really understand
so Going on field trips are going, you know, doing stuff with his class and
classmates. He had a hard time to to make his parents understand that. And he
always felt like he was he always said he was sitting between two chairs. And he
always told me he didn't want that for our children. Yeah. Because he, it was very
hard for him at that age. You know, to go through something like that. So we were
always thinking, what do we do in Germany? Which, which school? Do we want to put
our children in and we had considered Walter Waldorf school. Very similar to
Montessori concept and yeah and this was actually what motivated us to start to, to
see if we can even like establish a preschool in Germany. So this is where that
came from. So then once we we were offered to come here and we found the Islamic
school. That was like the perfect solution for us because we figured, while they're
all there in an Islamic environment all day they're surrounded by other Muslim
children. They don't feel left out. They don't have to tell them Oh, I don't, I can
eat this or I can you know, it doesn't feel as restricted as it felt when they were
in Germany. Although the kid the preschool was very open. Mind we never had any
issues. And they even had me come in to present about Ramadan and the importance of
Ramadan and you know, so they were open very open in that regard. But it was, I
think it was smoother for them to be in an Islamic environment because they didn't
feel like they have this big difference between school and home. Like what we teach
them at home was pretty much in alignment with what they taught in school. And I
think it was, it's important, especially during those early years when they grow
up, to establish their identity as Muslims to really develop a strong identity of
being a Muslim and what it means to be Muslim. So that once they go out, when they
go to college or you know, whatever, that there are equipped well enough to take
that on and to not be in the situation that my husband was in that he really
didn't, didn't know what to do and he was thrown back and forth between school and
what they taught him at home. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 46:24
So how how have things been recently in regards to your identity and things like
that, with everything that's been going on?
Safiya Balioglu 46:43
From I mean, speaking from my experience and my family's experience, I think we
never really even had we never really had negative experiences here. Even my
children They, we have two sons and three daughters. And all three were the
hitcher. And all three, all five actually went to the U of M. And I asked them,
especially the girls, if they had had any issues with each other on campus or, you
know, people talking to them or yelling, or any kind of negative experience, and
they said, No, they never did so. And we never did as a family really, I mean, it's
been Minnesota has been good for us so far. I know that people in the Muslim
community, especially women have had other experiences negative experience to the
extent that I to the extent of my experience back in Germany, where people would
try to rip off the hijabs or things like that or You know, yell at them or be rude
to them. But I do think that Minnesota is still a place where you can be Muslim
without being afraid of going outside with your hijab. Yeah, I think people are
still open minded. They're Minnesotans are very educated people. They're open
minded. They're kind friendly. They want to know more about Muslims in general. I
think a very small minority of Minnesotans maybe not that way, but really in
general, I, I feel like that has been our experience and I hope it stays this way
with everything going on. I also do. Yeah. But overall, I really have had, we
really have had it positive experience over the 21 years we've been here and I'm
really grateful. Very grateful for that.
Ollie Piotrowski 49:09
Thank you for doing this.
Safiya Balioglu
49:10
Yeah, you're very welcome. I'm yeah, I think I thank you for doing it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Ruhel Islam Muslims in Minnesota Interview
Fri, 4/1 7:53PM • 1:31:22
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, food, community, growing, called, america, sylhet, pandemic, restaurant, bangla, area,
bangladesh, minnesota, problem, turmeric, muslim, fish, bangladeshi, culture, burned
SPEAKERS
Ruhel Islam, Mah... Show more
Ruhel Islam Muslims in Minnesota Interview
Fri, 4/1 7:53PM • 1:31:22
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, food, community, growing, called, america, sylhet, pandemic, restaurant, bangla, area,
bangladesh, minnesota, problem, turmeric, muslim, fish, bangladeshi, culture, burned
SPEAKERS
Ruhel Islam, Maheen Zaman, Emily
Emily 00:00
All right. Today is Friday, April 1 2022. I'm Emily from Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota.
I'm here with Professor Maheen Zaman of the history department doing an oral history interview on
Ruhel Islam on Zoom. This interview is for the Muslims in Minnesota project. So my first question for
you Ruhel, is where and in which year you were born and can you tell us a little bit about what it was
like growing up in Bangladesh?
Ruhel Islam 00:34
Yes, I was born in a village called Bahar Mardan in Bangladesh. Which is the called Sylhet previously
Assam were part of the you know Assam. Assam is very famous for tea garden and its a lot of tea
garden. so from then 1976 October 1. When I was growing up, you know I grew up in a closed-loop
food system which is opposed to some, like a so it's like a joint family; happy everyone celebrating each
other you know my mom use to cook food so all people come eat holiday or I. one of the most
memorable stuff like when I was probably eight years old and Bangladesh was almost under the water
1988 flood and whole town was under the water or our village was there under the water, was hosting a
lot of other people from the town so okay, why? because we had a like a closed loop for system we
grew up we don't depend on transportation for our food so this is what culture I grew up in food is very
food always bring people together anything any celebration about the food even some people die we
celebrate with the food you know like these how food is very important for you know for us whenever
we're growing up it's very important Yeah,
Maheen Zaman 02:17
the same flood our first floor was flooded it did were to take a local little boat to go enough distance the
dendritic Orisha to go to school but yes they still in the water but we didn't have all the food the
catabolic I used to come to us and sell it the first floor because we couldn't go anywhere all the whole
city was underwater Dhaka yet wow how large was your family? And did you move around within Sylhet
or were you always in like our we have the name movie buzzer all the time in New York City a lot of
people from movie buzzer is that close to where you were?
-1-
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Ruhel Islam 02:57
Yeah yeah very close to the town Bahar Mardan is very famous for a lot of other reason already lead by
example for whole district whole Sylhet terms of either leading and the politics leading and you know,
any revolutionary staff in all without someone for village for familiar was no like a part of it. But yes, I
moved in a Sylhet again and I go around you know, I when I will say what is the childhood memories a
lot of memories like a very happy that's brings you he cannot tell story again. And again. It's too much
stuff to say. The Flood was important because when I see people come together, have conversation
and dialogue. And that time 1988, our elder, Hindu, Muslim, all we came together anything we all work
together shoulder to shoulder and they're talking about climate change. Just happened I was scared.
They said I heard this Bangladesh will go under the water you know, these are the story they taught
long time ago. And now you know science telling like a sea sea level rising up, you know, but this is
what people know long time ago. And that's why you know a lot of people out of country a lot of people
is the climate refugees. A lot of people displaced their, from their hometown or under the water they
went to Dhaka. Dhaka like a 16 17 million people. And again, if you think about what is experience I
wake up here in the morning I say thanks to Allah hamdulillah thanks god I'm here because no matter
what you know, we wake up and thinking what we can do make it better for other people you know,
because our action impact other people life. And you should think that way sometime you know, I
always like talk to I'm in the community like a we, when I first came to Minnesota, I came with as
stranger, me and my brother, then we build community, we are no more stranger anymore. So these
are we will come to why? Because what you see around here that's a reflection of my native culture. My
growing up with like a giant family culture I grew up in a community and growing up in a lot of sisters,
we grow a lot of sisters, you know, we are two brothers, and all five sisters and cousins, all this is like a
best thing like a you. There's a we care about each other care about art. And also, you know, whenever
I was little boy my mom is to teach us, like, you know, when we go play outside or maybe hit that tree or
try to make digging for unreason, on the soil, this is a no you have to make sure that treat the way used
to be treated treat your soil right, your plants, right, these are helping, you know, so Islam, when we're
growing up, you know, we didn't learn from the book from our community can come together, any
problem will come together, have conversation and dialogue and solve the problem. And that's the
culture you know, I grew up in I bringing me here. And I'll tell you, when I become a US citizen. During
the oath ceremony, life changing and other stuff, jazz said, We want you to bring your culture don't
forget your culture. That was around 2008. And after that, what do you see here? You know, it's opens
up like I have my license in a telling a Bangla guy gotta bring your culture means good, okay, what is it
my culture, the food culture, I just share with you, and in both this culture, and we build a community for
last 12 years, that in Yes, in this Longfellow area, and from our experience growing up in, in culture, or
under a mother in leadership, so we learn a lot of things and they help us now lead by example, you
know, hear that those those teaching, helping us anyway, go, you know, just bring it be who you are.
And just, you know, and of course, anything you have to have a dream. Everyone wants to come to
America, that was kind of American dream. And I was inspired by so many other stuff. Another thing
like watching the 18, fall guy, the MacGyver X flies, you know, go culprit get caught America, you know,
that was like, oh, man, maybe you get justice. Maybe 100 years later, we get justice in America, that
was we are you know, thinking forward, the oh, we go America freedom, like a freedom of speech, we
don't really get everything. And another thing is the economic reason to one of my main reason to I
decided to come to help my mom, my mom, my mother, salaam, help people, she's very spiritual in the
octave all the time. And I says in how I can, you know, support my mom to people, there's one of the,
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you know, difference I see she's to like a, you know, in our, our village, our family, our mother become
finance minister, or grandmother or mother, like all the generation mothers to become a leader or
finance minister of that family, in a decision making them like a real leader is why I remember also, you
know, my mother is to say, you have to educate yourself educated mother can create educated society
educated community that was again to me about that, and they're very spiritual lady, but they also
talking about learn, like acknowledge, like, yes, you have to learn how to deal with the data. So I'm here
you know, I'm bringing those bills and having How are we doing it through with the restaurant I had
before burned down through community work, bring people together doing a lot of unique stuff like idea
is closeable for system is a wonderful thing, you know?
Maheen Zaman 09:39
So related to the restaurant, what was your favorite food growing up in Bangladesh? In the 80s or 90s,
like growing up.
Ruhel Islam 09:50
my favorite food was actually Dal in a dal bhat. Dal is something you know, you come to curry or find
out I go anywhere, I take the dal. And dal every day and I still cry for Dal because sometimes going up
in a big familiy the dal become real soupy watery. You know, I don't like that I like that thick down like
go no dal. And I'm also cooking it here same dal. I go anywhere dal must fight that. Dal and this is what
I learned, you know, can alu bhaaji we have a Mookie something. These are like in our village growing
in our land. Potato Mookie, which is what is Mookie is English like some kind of root?
Maheen Zaman 10:38
Kochu. Kochu Kochu. Let's but they haven't been Asian stores. I just
Ruhel Islam 10:47
Yeah, I just had it today. I went through I said like the stuff we grew up with in Sylhet. And then you
know, on February stuff because sometimes when you feel sick there is a different February's tab
there's to put 512 Different kinds of spinners together. That's called Banerji or Bharata share, like and
cook together with shing match like a fish and good for your health when you don't feel good. So we
learn of medicinal food but also when we inhale it that was become favored. Oh when I get sick to get
this food you know? Because like there are some favorite stuff like this. The flavor inside those are
usually very we don't we can get I try to get those flavors sometime. But you can't get it here.
Maheen Zaman 11:44
The catfish catfish some of them
Ruhel Islam 11:45
catfish a small catfish. This is like a natural ones. So good. So dalysate dal and alu alu bhaaji Albertina
these are these are my favorite stuff and these are for the food security 1988 flood how we. There was
a food shortage. How we handle food shortage that time I see in my uncle my family, Oh everyone
growing potato everyone growing potato excuse me sir by there my son just walking everyone this is
the everyone growing potato and Mookie kochu and stuff I recording for live or just for your
assignments.
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Maheen Zaman 12:37
This is just for the audio the video or
Ruhel Islam 12:39
the audio okay again yeah you know like kochu that that like a very popular stuff then you go catch fish
from your, we had a pond in the front and pond in the back. So we go catch fish when you're hungry go
catch a fish. and it 2012 by two, University of Minnesota student group over there on sustainability
hosted Oh 22 students from here every year I take some delegation last couple of years because of
Coronavirus and other problem you know in a table so they always go long okay leaving the
sustainability there. So these are these value I want to do eat here and it is why we started you know
when it comes back? Yeah, we did. Gandhi garden and other stuff.
Emily 13:27
Yeah. So going off of you said that you tried to get some ingredients for some of the food. Um, I kind of
want to hear about how the transition was coming to America because I know we don't have like the
same ingredients. The culture is slightly different. So I'd like to hear how like you said the flood kind of
motivated you to come here. I just like to hear about your coming to America story.
Ruhel Islam 13:53
Again, okay. Thank you for putting me in that track. These are Bangla people will start talking you
know, we go from one site to another site so one of the of course, you know, there is a political reason
you know economic reason. There was a political problem. When you were growing up in a watching
people striking actually political problem was enough for our country. The big problem - excuse me one
second, I'm just gonna see if I can get a kid back to your mom. Continue those story from that hacker?
Maheen Zaman 14:40
So how did you come to America? For me it was my father was in Saudi Arabia gulf war happens you
will for George Islam, it didn't work. My mother played Obi Wan and we got the visa and that's how we
came to New York. So I have this story. So we would like to know what your journey and the stories
were. The context that motivated you. Who was here to receive you? Why Minnesota because it's it is
either London or New York and I've never heard of Minnesota
Ruhel Islam 15:05
Yeah. So when I say like in my mother you know she like to apply one I want to see like, oh she have to
comply we know other people to help this to that devices you don't why should you have to ask how
go? This I tried to become self sufficient very early age. But 1996 I came to America actually right after
the political change happened, you know, and we have a too much stuff going on over there. So, I
came as a like, I got my visa, my sister got married to American businessman, you know, my brother in
law, then I got visit visa, I came, then I take this out, you know, my opportunity came, I came to New
York, New York. Then, my father said, don't come back, you know. Good you're going there because a
problem is getting worse and worse political problem. So, that time was. I decided to stay back because
of the political reason, there was no I was involved with politics. Because when I was in high school, I
participated in Lautoka government like a movement as you know, brother Mines iman knows probably
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88 A shot autocratic government and one of our student leaders got killed then you all walk out I
remember from the school and then we you know, defeated the autocratic government and then
categoric government came, but we are not freedom yet. When the country from you know, I came here
another reason to make a difference from here speak out and tell people you know, this is why we are
doing this why I'm involved in US politics to make it better in the world. We as immigrant we understand
the problems you know, any problem because one of the problem we are facing here in America, we
are survivor of those problems. Having a recent problem was Coronavirus problem we survived Dingo
fever, barely survived malaria, cholera, typhoid, chicken pox, everything you know. Then that
experience also we have watching you know how to survive from this thing then you know in then we
have it like it I'm gonna move forward to American life right now right? I mean, I'm in American life now.
Okay,
Maheen Zaman 17:44
so 1996 you're in New York, New York ok did you come here with like to be to study a lot of people
come to study
Ruhel Islam 17:52
in New York then I took right after my college actually I went to a first college and I was up my auntie
wanted me to go in the army. When I wanted to be involved in the
Maheen Zaman 18:04
Bangladeshi cadet school, Josiah shine
Ruhel Islam 18:07
Yeah Bangladeshi our first cause in Bangladesh. Yeah, then I came then I decided to stay back I
stayed back 2000. You know, till I got married I found my wife. They arranged so I got married. Then I
was not happy in New York because it's a cultural shock and first thing is first thing I feel I came in
heaven because when when I was lending every line last day of snowing happening or coming down
coming out from a track I feel like they say Heaven or something like is so good feeling. I didn't know
this I get another shock. Wow first time live snow
Emily 18:55
and then you come to Minnesota where we have more snow? Yeah,
Ruhel Islam 18:58
that I cold you know cold is actually Minnesota. I found Minnesota because I was saying like when I
came to America, I giving an apartment in Manhattan. Looks like I'm living in a jail. We call packing
buckshot. mojego like our our chicken house were bigger than their apartment. You know
Maheen Zaman 19:22
where this where Manhattan there was a north or south?
Ruhel Islam 19:26
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I live in Greenwich Village area. Downtown and you know they have a nice apartment by Medina
Motion by where they are more 64th Street. Yeah, yeah, the four between second and first avenue
Fourth Street. You know first they came there for Emily's
Maheen Zaman 19:42
reference. Remember we learned about in the 20s and 30s. A lot of people from Bengal jumped ship
and they create a Bengali Muslim community in Lower East Side and some of them assimilated into
black and Puerto Rican community. But there's a mosque there. My father took me there. His first bond
the masjid and it was there NYU. Now that area is like you know, all gentrified and rich people and
people How did this mosque come about? Because well it used to be a community here. People come
in and merchant marines and ships in the 50s 60s and they live there
Ruhel Islam 20:15
yeah so you're right you know that area my grandfather in law which is first came ship from Sylhet and
he participate in the World War II, he was one of the first Bangladeshi world war two veteran, you know,
few of them came in they never got back they died here and never go back. But they were like a
generation came that brought all their my wife said people slowly slowly was able to give people bliss. I
don't know that time that something is if it's a process that time come in the border ship, okay, get a
certificate something, then is to people who say give them like a house, or I have a apartment give
anyone the $200 apartment rent, you know, $300 and a lot of people still pay the $500 rent because of
the kind of help put him in all those kind of rent control whatever it is, they still have people where is
$1,000 apartment, but they're still using like a during the war, World War, you know, lease with some
policy in New York. And then I came to Minnesota, my brother came first. I'm coming to Minnesota,
then I start. I said 10,000 city of lakes and rivers 10,000. The country I'm coming from this also country
of lake and river, the Sylhet that village of the Sylhet I mean, or high lower area, you know, so I feel like
I found my home. And South Minneapolis, people are, you know, welcoming, very welcoming, I try to
see some people you know, I do a lot, a lot of fun stuff, but I always take everything is a positive. So I
don't suffer, you know, like, there is a different kind of problem happening around the area. But I just
take it very, I'm very positive. I say no, I don't really pay attention just going to be move forward I know
what my, you know, dream is and stuff. But I remember. So, when first I opened the restaurant in 2000
and. We started 2005 actually at that small dinky dome area food court area by the University of
Minnesota, called the Tasman covenant, very insight. Then we suffer I don't wanna say suffer but there
was some news that came in that building you know those things, but they took advantage as an
immigrant that and I was new, then 2008 when I came to Longfellow area I found this place and you
know, that time was very important for me to what I'm seeing what I'm facing like a people don't trust
each other Middle East are people you know, like a Muslim or not trusted like it, people are fitting better
each other then I get time I found like, that area Longfellow area, all the peace sign everywhere. Peace
sign peace, I know why against why then I say Oh, this is how we have to bring people together. And
as I found the home and lake, river, everything, all positive stuff. Then we started restaurant fine dining
in 2008. And you know, one of the main thing to unite people and rename after Gandhiji because
Gandhiji is a leader for our you know, like in India everywhere during that time. And my grandfather,
during the Assam time, Assam fighters Buddhist time, my grandfather, you know, when Gandhi came to
our district, he was in this meeting with him. There was a inspiration. I ran about from my uncle book
when he wrote, so those are the inspiration I said, How can we this is the time How can you bring
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people together? You know, and maybe use Gandhi's name and being a, you know, like a diverse
group of people together. That time was a good idea to do this to get people together. Because
sometime you know, my name like my last name is Islam. And that time I put my PR says put Ruhelji,
you know, really Gandhiji really, that try to make the case to the community that I was stranger. That
people slowly know about my culture Oh is a Muslim guy Islamic culture was very welcoming. Then I
slowly and I share all the culture, studying, doing like a halal meat, season with kosher salt, vegetarian,
non vegetarian and vegan. I invited people when I say Everyone is welcome. It's my Imam. It's my
belief that I have to make sure that everyone is welcome. So we started inviting in a diet, come on the
same table, and have conversation and dialogue and talk about everything, you know, what do you
face. And slowly that's this is what through this restaurant to this community building thing. You know,
we build a whole community I am no more stranger.
Maheen Zaman 25:29
Did you move before or after 9-11 to Minnesota from New York?
Ruhel Islam 25:34
I moved, actually after 9-11 after 9-11.
Maheen Zaman 25:38
So you were in New York City?
Ruhel Islam 25:39
I was in I mean, I was coming back and forth from 2000 to 2005. I did not like a back and forth, I just my
brother here, I get married, I'm going to Bangladesh, my father died. My mother long sick. So when my
father says, you know, when I come, don't come back, I never got to see him again. Because he died in
Cambodia, you know, so I never able to go back I was in, I don't have a visa to go back that time
because I was in a process, you know, visa. So this is like a set barrier to sacrifice on a small team, to
water water to come here. You know, make your life be somebody and you know, not only your own
life, make the world a better place. And I found working through this restaurant, you know, was I was it
almost like a 12 years of building community to this restaurant and coming to work. And bringing culture
no more stranger. People don't afraid of me. They're not afraid of my beard anymore. They know, our
culture is wonderful. Maybe we look different, maybe, you know, we do things differently. Maybe we
pray five times. But these are not a bad thing. So I was able to make the case and people are very
welcoming about it, they will start participating. So that's why we did that. Our demo and them and I,
they collaborate them to interfaith dinner. If they're blocked by invite everyone tell everyone like a what
is iftar. Educate everyone and one thing I did first time I went to jump into that room. And I did call for
prayer Adhan. Today adhan is official in No, they're doing it. We started from there out is no did it and
everyone came pay attention sometime. Here people pay very good attention. Look at your respect.
You know, this is what I really like about even now our culture if we go after our Bangladesh in our
when we talk to people for interfaith people, they were very silently listening. They're listening like a
with respect everything this is a very wonderful thing. And there's nothing new to ask you to me
because we grew up in this kind of culture you know, Hindu Muslim, I buy extra paper go to the chai
accettare patch Salah Jai you know we do all this work together any problem we work together and this
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is what I was able to teach our share with our community here in Minneapolis I believe communities
with any sort of, you know, yeah,
Emily 28:21
um, I noticed that you're you said like you built this community and you're really involved in like
educating people. And I also noticed that you said like, your mother taught you how to like respect the
soil and nature. I'm just wondering how that journey started towards sustainability and encouraging
sustainability and how that's integrated into your restaurant as well.
Ruhel Islam 28:45
Yes, when I started a restaurant I see like a lot of ingredients shortage I see food shortage happening
because you know, food something if you deal with even know every day you can tell what's going on.
This is a first year of then what I started doing in the area gorilla gardening. I found sport drugs it's it's in
the city come sometime you know the squash vine they cut it out and then some neighbors see they
then some neighbors so then we had somebody I start conversation and dialogue about growing food,
you know, urban farming, yes, slowly started there. The first person I know then gave me a plot in the
community garden. This my first plot nearby community garden and I started growing food but for one
of the important thing I grow which is Bangla squash, so Bangla for the Bangla squash, they found
home in Minneapolis they cared now not only our big a lot of other big kid, they're growing squash. And
then we started this and also this this is like a first year garden then all our people like some another
anchors to work in so heavy they growing food so excited about you know so we learn like elder three
and intergenerational conversation intergenerational dialogue intergenerational working together
because we working with other people we learn to listen to them with a good listener something as a
young people's to move forward to make the change and but this kind of thing through gardening you
know that green hold community with a word Gandhi Mahal gardening like a strength to surprise and I
start growing cilantro and start growing green khichuri green tea then Bangla beans they never seen
those kinds of things woody you know the shaag laal Bangla beans the babies those kinds of things
then the loud shock slowly people everyone coming gathering what's going on here then I start having
when winter comes very sad because I to wrap up a routine so hard in a farmer like he continuously
you have to find ways to in back home go all around then close everything your garden Oh Michael is a
closing party again. So like every three months opening closing you know like it's that's why a lot of in
America in Minnesota a lot of people are discouraged to grow food because it's not easy. It's a sort of
labor of love and it's a lot of work but what I did the way we started like I teamwork collaborating with
different organization bring people together, it's not me and I started a important program called Food
barter economy like a casual we have a cat dog food barter economy, which is partnering with
University of Minnesota Aqua in class and other local schools good call Yeah. All local schools have
they participate in this process and we encourage them. So, I feel because in I remember in 2012 when
I was lucky enough to host a 19-23 people from Minnesota all around America from you know
sustainability class Person village in Bangladesh in my village, in our closed food system. So I said you
know, I want to do this program back here to table initiative and grow food security and up you know, I
want to create a local food reserve bank. So, I share why I told them example, this this the the way, this
student came together 2012 In June, we started and harvested 1800 pounds of vegetable from this
garden. So which this is this is now called Gandhi Mahal interfaith garden. But we went to this that 60
by 20 You know, it's big for the city but not too big for us, we grew up in the village you know, that good
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enough then soil was a bad soil, not a good soil, like it has a lot of arsenic. So we doing we take all the
soil out bring all the soil in, you know freshly then, which is weird to practice like a regenerative
agriculture. You know, back home when you grow food. I saw in our farmer and you know, our family
from then they leave some food for the soil, you know, then turned around.
Maheen Zaman 33:47
This is in Longfellow composting, the 60 by 20 plot? This is in Longfellow neighborhood?
Ruhel Islam 33:52
in Longfellow neighbor, Longfellow neighborhood in Minneapolis, South Minneapolis still had that it's
gotten to a one to twenty secondary south that south Minneapolis and it was not too far from that
restaurant, Gandhi Mahal, and I say to my wife, that was Gandhi Mahal, and garden was this site.
Maheen Zaman 34:09
And this is before the aquaponic farming the you?
Ruhel Islam 34:11
before that before the aquaponic then 2012 to 2014. In these two years, I grow food. And every year I
begin to wrap up with the bolenta when I say food barter economy, you know, I'll finish up the garden
story that 2013 We did 10 different gardens in the community we call it Bijar like a big care just
gardening for urban agriculture by Justice and anyone they care to table initiative. So that's a closed
food system so we work together with a lot of our volunteers, a lot of volunteers. it's not me. We are
leading by example with when everyone support you. When everyone gives make their hands dirty in a
big part of it. it can happen labor of love we cannot, that time is best if I had to pay 100 volunter I cannot
do any further I'll be broke. But what did what I did, I also did a food barter economy so Tim garden,
Jenny, individual farm manager from different school students, and I say wherever you grow keep the
record. Our thing is like a micro finance style we invested money in the different 10 different plots,
seedlings startup everything. Then say we had 10,000 pounds a vegetable we stockpile for our food
reserve bank for security and average every student if I spent $200 For per plot the example I'm giving
whatever money left after their food barter economy, I was giving them a check to because we are so
happy end of the holiday they get a small check. These are you You make I don't only I mean not only
volunteer because our young generation you have to encourage them in a different way. This is what
you know I learned we bring up oh find funny grow then there's a celebration. So we did this and
everyone's happy. So we've been growing local food 10,000 yearly local food in our community for our
customer. And now during the pandemic time what's really we all experience which is sense a sense of
belonging because food not coming in shortage and from my experience I changed my business model
right away which is curry in a hurry right now but I started during the pandemic time because restaurant
I said we know how to handle any pandemic because we grew up with a river of those as I mentioned
before, so why did exactly Bangla belay style spiritual sanitation which is you know, in back home in the
village I saw people get sick they quarantined people on the corner one room they put some kind of
pitball fire pit or something so anyone go in and out make sure that go over the fire so any bacteria
virus things they die you know you probably don't say Brother Javan barium Cinco village you know
they did give a children newborn baby you cannot go without those things so I remember those thing I
bought this cart they say I don't know people are taking hand sanitizer shortage this shortage that
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shortage I says no worries so I created those and ramaden the process 1-2-3 process okay, I was
ready to start community again even the dining. I closed actually we closed restaurant before governor
close because I thought this is the time let's enjoy it. I don't want any dine into coming in I raised so
before they started shutdown officially I shut down for our area and I lead by example for community
how to deal with it so we started 1-2-3 process you know 1-2-3 persons like at one place in order
online. There's a lot of we had to struggle a lot but we survived. We did it and was doing really good.
Then this George Floyd was murdered by the police and rescue we're gonna
Maheen Zaman 38:26
ask the question later but can you go back to how the aquaponic farm started because I went down
2015 spring like are did gone 2014 rebuilding at the time I remember
Ruhel Islam 38:41
2000 So that while I was sitting I said Well think about that. I I said like I started then wrapping up every
year then I said how can we do? I started meeting with the people how can we do a closed food system
I have a abundant basement, under the restaurant. I want to do indoor garden. Then you know
gardening then also in when I says back home we have upon our pond is aquaponic system. But
America we call it a aquaponic because I saw pond then we grow food by the pond. Beans squash
everything, but we don't have to never give watering then I realize this is a whole nice system here
indoor but we have a back home in our outdoor. So I showed this to the kids and we commissioned
some local youth organization commissioned to do a feasibility study for us. We hired them. We spend
a lot of money for this because sometimes it's good investment because this will become a very one of
the first in closed food looped system in the entire country according to you know some newspaper a
Star Tribune, like a aquaponic in the closed off food system and it's like a 200 step away from the
kitchen. You know, where we're growing highest ingredients like cilantro sometime in the winter is what
I was having cilantro all around Harry Potter so yeah the first time made in Minnesota Harry Potter.
Then I started growing spinach. Spinach which is longevity spinach, spinach so good for your health
and diabetics and sugar and other stuff. Then main thing is fish tilapia so here fish you know. Then I
grew up with that fish gotta like you're hungry go with the boy row go catch a fish and bring it to your
mom fresh right away there's like a best thing you can experience. And I I brought this experience to let
our customer our friends and family to the basement. Sunday I said okay, I'm gonna go catch it Bangla
style and whole process we did a few of them to educate people how to you know cook fish kick it fish
the way then you know like a healthy fish it's where some of the stuff we educate about the turmeric I
start growing turmeric in the basement didn't, it's a lot of work but I tried it's possible. But I could not
continue because it's not enough. You need a lot of space. You say 2, 3, 4 show up, even I try to grow
saffron. Saffron was popping up but never you know I never ever be able to harvest but they died
before they flower. I tried that I told student don't worry. If you don't fail you're not going to learn. Failing
is a good thing. You know, you failed and you know next time you can you can keep some directors
educational, everything in education. Then 2014 finally commissioned people 15 project was done we
did a huge thing celebration about that. And after that every year until our building burned down is to
throw our 1000 store to the basement small spill excuse me we open up for young generation to all kind
of school Primary School I mean kindergarten to college everyone's to come study on so we have a
University of St Thomas A their social entrepreneurship class they are one of the syllabus from our
about our project we did so we work with them and then they're they helped me figure out what actually
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what I'm doing what should I call it they says after study professor to Professor put together they said
this is called fully fed community which was which is you're doing it here so it was a wonderful working
together I didn't know what is that call so I learned by working with the students and Professor every
day you learn something. Then prolific committee this is what we are doing you know COVID
Community. Everyone that means you care about soil, environment, fish, yard, chicken, goat. All part of
the aurora environment and then you know after that a lot of we have a all progressive city, all
congressmen, Democrats, everyone getting interest, also everyone coming to visit my basement. Al
Franken Tina asked me you know and they came this also help like it. Tina ask me visited when I was
building building over there to her right after our visit I got my license quick, you know, next day they
came okay. So that because there was a no code in the city about restaurant basement aquaponics. So
I just got license from you know, these are new, we are part of the new chain Okay, so I get a pay a lot
then I get only that license from DNR. DNR officer and then next project now whole city has this paper
on it the writing the letter we want to work with you to part of this process are to do so other people can
to and I say I don't want too much more crazy on this just keep it say this way we're able to do it quick
to go through your process too much. But we know how to grow fish and basement environment.
Sudden cold like a food core you harvest fish put it under the eyes go down to 40 degree under 40
degree temperature then you feel a you know this person we know this is nothing new. And especially
then I we made it Turmeric. Turmeric easy, some kind of antibacterial, antiviral it's an aromatic you
know, whatever I wanted, they call very beneficial to medicina they helps preserve and prevent that
made before in back home. There was a no trees and cooler and nothing. So how they should preserve
food with the turmeric. When it turmeric dry them remember those things? My grandma my grandma
used to?
Maheen Zaman 45:11
Yeah. And now they put the turmeric, hipsters on Instagrams on everything from ice creams to milk and
turmeric, Chai and all this right shot
Ruhel Islam 45:22
on my tablet. I can't believe like someone called me enough, my friend. Oh, can you bring it on my table
for America when you come on? Seriously? Hydroponic story. Oh
Emily 45:42
all right. Thanks so much for that. Um, have you ever worked with Minneapolis Community College on
any of the hydroponics or the three legged frog? Have you heard of those clubs? The Minneapolis
Community and Technical College they have a three legged frog sustainability club and an urban
farming club. I'm wondering if you ever got to work with them at all? MCTC? Yeah. MCTC.
Ruhel Islam 46:09
Yeah, I think I think I gave probably sounds a lot of I don't remember. Because I used to have every
intern from different college in order to help me to put all that in. There's a lot of science behind it. No.
Yeah, our experiences sometime. I mean, it's become scientific later in home, but it was hoping to
figure out those things. I think I think I did probably, right. I don't remember. But a lot of my team
member was sometimes to go to MCTC college, or some of the volunteer also. I'm sure. All right.
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Emily 46:48
I was just curious. Um, alright, the next question I have for you, I know you went over a little bit of it.
Before the hydroponic story, the change from pre pandemic versus post pandemic, if you could just go
over how that change started when the virus was coming out and then like when it finally hit here, and
then like what things you had to change for your restaurant? And then obviously, you know, your
Gandhi Mahal restaurant got burned down and how that affected you? That's kind of story.
Ruhel Islam 47:26
Yeah, I think the pandemic time I already probably mentioned some of the stuff like how we handled in
a pandemic time. So this is also I could say like our mother's teaching grandma teaching, you know,
that there was a pandemic time we did this 1-2-3 process. We changed some of our system which is
shut down for dining and only did takeout and delivery.
Maheen Zaman 48:00
so many restaurants shut down in Twin Cities and around the country because they couldn't pay the
rent. Do you rent your space? Or do you own the whole space cuz I remember Ghandi Mahal got two
eating areas and then a hall and I think the Samali school was also your property and so did you buy
land or?
Ruhel Islam 48:19
It was a like a one? Yeah, I wish to should pay rent by the sister organization you know was to own that
thing, but not too much where you're supporting in ourselves. So Gandhi Mahal the first you say the
main dining area then the kebab room. That's the children playroom area where the children and the
start aquaponics there. Next room was a community room was give it back to community to this anyone
is to come and use free of charge. You know the food meeting is always been there next door was a
Somali grocery then returning to annex office like a co working space where his Defense Organization
again 350 big movement, I mean IPL and Sierra Leone foundation spies and few other like Miss Lonnie
and then a few five different people is to use this space all about community. And then the pandemic
time actually we get a lot of support people from our our community people buying I see some people
coming in and they're buying food like three, four times more food. So when I did very good business
there pandemic type from takeout delivery. Everyone coming and buying food not only for themselves,
sometime sets up in a sense of belonging, before delivering food to their friends and relatives inside
and also we partner it there it says anyone in our area should not stay hungry. You don't have money,
no problem. I started doing this way sending food everywhere. But also those people aren't sending
food they also supporting me next time they coming, oh, I'm going to buy this. So the whole what we
generate kind of economy locally, grow food in the backyard that was our our works really helped
during the pandemic for the food shortage even though oil and stuff but you know figure out in their
head like a we are we know planned so our our support was getting from the farmers and backyard
different backyards vegetables and the stockpile in the cooler like 10,000 pounds of vegetables we
headed the stock the time when I had fish in the basement, a fish producing cilantro you know I don't
have to go out shopping in The Cup or anywhere any other place just have you know, cilantro green
chili inside. So we're doing pretty good and also government has a program that turn people pay loans
that also helps small business they help us to helping in boosting is one of the I think good help. Then I
tell other people we should do this way. And you know, again leading by example I said yes I did and
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this way that way. Then pandemic, by the time we are handling pandemic, then murder of George
Floyd you know, created unrest in our area that was it around the corner, my daughter recorded some
when he was arrested in we are very watching Oh thing things are going and it was traumatize that
time. Because then also traumatized in a sense, because we kind of ran away from this problem like it
came here in America from Bangladesh, where we see this familiar with this kind of situation, you know,
America and Bangladesh different is America still have right to go out protest. You know, no matter
what you can protect your right to protect. In Bangladesh, we don't have those rights to third world
country, you know, they say your life will be endangered. So that was my you know, I say that to
participate in and then I see this injustice happening for all I slowly changing like I never seen even you
know, in back home, we slaughter cow and stuff, you know, we never feel like very the way they treated
put it under that, you know, I in the TV, everyone watching very traumatizing I wouldn't want it normal,
any human to enlive this way. But obviously, you know, we things happening in our area and I started I
think the first day or second day. Second day, probably so bright everywhere, you know, and the PR
guess people start shooting that and I was just traumatized for this beginning was very fun, like
everyone coming you know, participating first day, cool. Second day, I see traumatized because of
police action, you know, police start shooting. And what? and we are you know, we're lucky. And also
nobody's protecting us. You know, we came for our here in America for justice. We came for our
freedom of speech, freedom of you know, like ever everything, especially for security. And I start feeling
like very unsecure because nobody is there protecting us. And and I learn about like a injustice
happening with our native sisters and brothers, our black sisters and brothers. It's been beginning of
the history of America. You know, we learned a school Columbus discovered America. Then then when
I came to New York, I thought Native American culture in the museum now I'm living within culture. And
I feel like this is my culture. This was so close to our concert celebration. I I'm going to like a nap and
during that time I went to water celebrations and remember you can line three movement participate all
the movement with the food that time and the writer in our own eyes, you know also I see people come
together. I said when he said that belonging our native organization sisters and all that our our you
know American sister they were sisters. They all in front of the restaurant and there was a magazine
that protecting us someone poorly when minority owned business you know in the in the in the life.
They are protecting us there and we open up the door because we continue by the medic team we
opened up our an exhibition committee room put in a bed. We are close by tattooist places those kinds
of very bored right away bring the whole medic team and start treating people with amazed and
becoming a like I opened up.
Maheen Zaman 55:20
the tear gas right? put the milk in the eyes.
Ruhel Islam 55:22
tear gas yes yeah tear gas and stuff and people were crying and I said.
Maheen Zaman 55:26
We saw this in Ishka in Bangladesh we saw this issue with all the missing intaka I see that all the time
from our apartment building the army going around and trucks and shooting and people protesting and
you see that again in America it's very strange
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Ruhel Islam 55:39
really strange it was it was strange to matters but you know we know I'm sure how to that's why I was
hindered okay you know this new treatment some people very bad we send them with their Moulins you
know, a lot of teamwork when I become a doctor first time I feel like when you know taking running
running around and watching other people doing all this our community actually trained us to be deal
with or represent any situation you know in the bedtime comes and you have to represent and lead by
example not react. reaction ruin everything or you have to represent the way so that you know, very
positive way you unite people and move forward and get the things done. And that was I was very lucky
I know that I said no, that's first thing is open up the medic teams. Then what people need hungry food I
made that Khichuri dalin but Khichuri I know this is what we did in our flat time. The Khichuri something
is a Bangla soul foods a grit is like a Bangladeshi grits are to explain whether germa you know
Maheen Zaman 56:46
I make it for my kids all the time. It's it's it's another variety rice and beans but it's lentil mostly dealt with
the red lentil I put Hmong down sometimes and then rice they cook it together with you know cumin,
coriander, ginger garlic paste some you know of course turmeric lots of turmeric and you can put in
anything in it. You can make it soupy you can make it drier right its supporters would you get the
proteins from the dal and you get the starch from the rice and fibers and you have all your you know
wood vegetables in there cook it everything you need.
Ruhel Islam 57:25
if you can give some time kitar cut that's like a wonderful bedtime like outside is a cool people you know
like a little bit of wind coming so I decided to make a dal sometime some evening dal bowtsa meaning
like it this is a major breakdown down but in the kitchen at dal is something and put it in load in the cart,
out cart walking around with feeding everyone wherever you know hungry needy and food and that is
wonderful. And then I see after everyone else who come in supporting me. Okay, you know people try
to contribute you supporting your support. So this really sense of belongings you know, was there then,
of course 29, 28 You know, in the morning, I learned that my restaurant is burned down their line like
across the cloud get burned down then fire across fire, burned by crossfire and not burned by protester
people I know because of you working together is the outside world can we see a lot of kids came from
outside and they are just throwing stone and breaking windows and like if people everyone had a fun
like they are inside the jail for a long time during the Coronavirus and they had opportunity to get out
and stealing looting the liquor and these and that everything everyone is involved but this was not the
protesters. This is like outside people come in parties. We watch them when I try to talk them they
Yeah, you know oh come on. Come on, man. We are. So some people intentionally did this to divert
and we understand the gravity third world country this kind of polling we know. They want to divert.
People ask me question why what do you say? they says, you know, let my building burn just in must
be served. Because, you know, we don't divert your movement different direction that was all planned
in a divert movement? Probably I don't know. But we bill people over property, you know, it's very
important. And when the time calm, which will work together no matter what community you know,
these were really even even you know, I live in the community to visit in the community. Some of my
family Oh, leave come back. Come back over the go over there, I'm not leaving. No. Yeah, you know
how our Bangla Okay, oh, dangerous, dangerous. I'm sending you ticket come back. I said no. Oh no.
And I was embarrassed that time because you know, I so proud of that we because I said Bangladesh
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is like a ground zero for climate change. And Minnesota Minneapolis is ground zero for movement
protest you know major protests against any you know darkness come anywhere with to stand up for
other people right you know this is what Minnesota about so proudly, then now they say oh, why you
talk our police here police killing people and all this different Bangladesh police is like you did go
personally here present on you know, have a I mean, or anyone, nobody control them. They have their
own control. But as I say you go against opposition party. So don't compare it. They're still protesting
out. Nobody put me in that jail. We still speaking out for justice. This is the real democracy here. You
get it? Oh, this never happened in Bangladesh. Oh, yeah. I mean,
Maheen Zaman 1:00:59
to give Emily a context Bangladesh developed in the early 2000s, the special police force called Rapid
Action Battalion RAP, it was under the theme BNP, but then on the other party is become like a
personal militia, to shut down any opposition. It was initially done because a lot of crime has risen in
Dhaka, and to deal with, you know, drug cartels to other kind of crime. And now they've become, you
know, a way to silence opposition and silence. The opposition party for disclosure for the archive, my
father's family from Bogra. So they have natural, tight or BMPs. I just want to reveal that nobody
accuses me of being on bias, but so a lot of Bangladeshi's were complaining to us to like, Oh, look at
your country is this and this and that is it. That's true. But again, despite all of that, there's still
possibilities to democracy that we don't have anymore in Bangladesh.
Ruhel Islam 1:01:56
Yeah, that's why I say like, I wake up, I'm blessed. I says, you know, Alhamdulillah, like, thanks to God,
you know, here, how can you make another day a better day? And
Maheen Zaman 1:02:06
like you said, it's possible because people like Martin Luther King, Jr, Malcolm X, Native American
community, Latinx community, and you know others who have pushed the country to be better. Yes.
Ruhel Islam 1:02:19
I think that I agree with from the like, you know, everyday learning, like, the civil rights movement
actually give us more right then our black brothers and native brothers, sisters, you know, more
demographic come people, sometimes tedious, like a work, you are a computer engineer or a doctor.
You know, there's a lot of, even though you know, there is a difference here, whereas, when, if anyone,
any black people cross the light or red light, the thing is a gang member or whatever it is, you know,
these are, this is mindset, this problem inside
Maheen Zaman 1:02:54
because model minority people from Asia like us, we're model minority, even though we have had wars
and crimes and violence, as much as any part of the world. But racism that's as you know, your model
minority you come here, and you're against black native and Latin X community, and then we will get
the loans the positions, but not the best ones, but but better than others. So this is divide and conquer.
We know this from South Asia, or the British to divide and conquer with the Muslims, Hindus, and how
here some people in power do the same thing. Different ethnic groups. So once it's burnt down, you
hear iit is burnt down and you're famous quote, was all over the news. I went to visit. And I was really
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sad because the first restaurant I went to eat was Gandhi Mahal. Like, Oh, this is a Bangladeshi
restaurant. And then you see the ground, both the club and all the buildings like just all the way to the
basement. And for me, it also reminded me of the World Trade Centers when it burned down. We built
these things with steel so strong, but then fire is so destructive, right? And you think about Day of
Judgment, like the Quran doesn't want the Ramadan awesome or not the fire, it will burn everything
down. To go with arrogance and hatred. It's like a fire, it will burn everything down. So I saw that
reflecting on that day remembering the the destructiveness of anger, hatred, fire, and also the
punishment that awaits those who don't repent. So, I'm glad to hear like how did you then recover? I
know you started Curry in a Hurry, which is a famous restaurant in New York and in London. We have
the name was also but how did you plan to do it? How did you make that shift?
Ruhel Islam 1:04:38
Yeah, you know that during the pandemic time, you know, again, no, like will ever go through like this.
We are like a, God was preparing us to have Curry in a Hurry over there where they are like, it is all
started for the pandemic, because of pandemic I start Curry in a Hurry idea was Hurry, hurry, can you
come here? Like that whole idea was there pandemic it come, don't stay quick go. Slowly, slowly
cooked. Food quickly sub slowly cooked, quickly served studying the whole idea. That's why people are
coming and going. Same. It's like I said, it's kind of set in their mind. They come nobody, because a
pandemic Come 1, 2, 3 go Curry in a Hurry. That was the whole idea.
Maheen Zaman 1:05:25
Once the kitchen is burnt on, how did you find another kitchen then?
Ruhel Islam 1:05:29
this is a community came together and gave us founders this kitchen actually, this is a wonderful. One
of the brother is from, I think, somewhere in Africa and he's his wife own and his wife. He was like our
chicken tikka masala in our food. And we was looking and they were going to build your home there,
break this place in the corner and turn their own home. Then it says if you rent it, you're gonna hold it
for how many years you need, say four years rent until we will then he says okay, for four years, they
gave it rent to us. A very good price, good deal, you know, and this kitchen actually built by our
community, all all the family come together, clean these and build it for us. And they say, you know, and
I kept carrying her, you know, it's too much stuff going on and I don't know, you know, sometime, this is
a like a. Sometimes, I feel like in next two, three years, you know, I was we are hoping to put together a
feasibility study that $50 million project. So that's really like a living building first time regenerative living
building in Minneapolis replanning. I don't know how far we can go and collaboration is Pina Walls
theater you know try to collaborate and do it but now looks like no matter how much covered I do you
know investment and return of investment 50 million in I have to work all my life then I'll become
different kinds of slave to the system then resists study like this people saying in government if we need
bond money like our consultants that study the pillar of our study finishes every study saying you have
to the suggestion site to give my right to city give me I should not product realization so I am the only
one was POC on land around this area one of the person now I have to give my land to under nonprofit
you know, what are to structure this project?
Maheen Zaman 1:07:43
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The idea is your land you will own the land.
Ruhel Islam 1:07:46
Yeah, yeah, we will not we started with the renting you know, actually I bought the restaurant $1 $1 $1
Then I turned it to a million dollar restaurant. The $1 I bought I get into the real like this is also I learned
the system if you bring a new like a new restaurant a lot of process from the government licensing stuff
then they'll say why don't you do it we'll do we'll do a little transition here. You pay $1 I paid cash one
dollar and he signed by let's rent from the other tenant then he extend that transfer the reason I had to
buy for $1 That was a good story because $1 is 10 bigger to million dollars or is $1 more is to make
difference in the whole world now we're planning to bring all together but when I did rented you know I
was right away in I thinking about like I'm paying rent every month and all given to someone that can
just gonna start saving money talking to in 2014 Actually, finally, when I did aquaponic because then
got permission the guy to this why this thinking the title and the 10 billion for clothes and then become
owner of the building again they took it when I talked to bank because tenant has arrived and I have
some good you know, I get involved and actually convinced them I called bank owner of the bank not I
don't want to talk to me I want the owner because I learned from my uncle you know, you have to just
got to the top then progress process for you. You can
Maheen Zaman 1:09:36
say for a man. Yeah. To do several money was one of the longest serving finance minister Obama this.
Ruhel Islam 1:09:46
Just yeah, that was my uncle. I know I grew up under his tutelage that's what I understand. He couldn't
hold Bangladeshi bottomless basket. To he make it this an old country enjoying this economy. Make he
called akhira Bangladesh economy he did the way system VAT other stuff countries to run it so nobody
can you know no matter how bad people Coronavirus bothers GDP is high everything doing good
because of the right policy and I see closely you know him he did agriculture way prior to agriculture,
Agriculture Food Security farming fishery, I was part of so many of this wall USA program I seen it then
he also says investing on farmer is never don't say it's a loss. This is a good investment they're
producing food is adding to our food security. So don't think is a lot is adding. So if you invested in
pharma is invested in human food for education program fourscore scholarship program. So I seen
these and some of the things are implementing here actually, this helping me those experience, you
know, entering my gardening and growing food, bring the book together, those experience really helped
me.
Emily 1:11:05
So after all of your experience from 2005, to coming here and seeing them pandemic, do you think the
state in the community is moving in the right direction? Do you think the country's making progress?
How would you say like the community is changing? Is it moving forward? Based on your observations
and experiences?
Ruhel Islam 1:11:27
Yes, you know, I'm every day you know, we learning something new, you know, something's tough, but
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Maheen Zaman 1:11:37
do you feel optimistic? You feel
Ruhel Islam 1:11:39
no mercy yet? Justice? I talk about the justice system, you know, even though we have a freedom of
speech, freedom of right. And but But here, you know, it's not, you have to prove to get justice, you
know, thing. And my experience sometime some people have privilege, they automatic. People assume
like, Oh, these are the good people. Okay, oh, people have no idea. These are the Muslim people, they
treat their human where, you know, people that they marry four times, then people sometimes like a
sound by Judge oh, maybe these that these are the, you know, a little bit of racial justice problem. I
seen every now, before I was so busy, like a building community, I didn't pay attention. I learned like a
positive move forward, move forward, still moving forward, then went on to be paying attention. I see
Oh, my God, what an injustice can happen. Especially, especially, you know, the immigrant community
actually Bangla community, male community, my example. We, I was on a restaurant actually work with
Volunteers of America, which is a halfway house, you know, people go to jail after a certain time for
reentry to the community. So I work with them in the reentry force help people get into the community.
So I face a lot of them. I like a lot of white people will be traumatized. They grew up in bed experiment,
so many I learned, I try to have to help them, give their privacy supervised, and bring them back to the
community. So rather, people get back in their community than normal. They're not people not but
people some time for small thing. This other opposition or person or other party have a lot of proof. Oh,
this is enough. But actually, this was not a real justice. I'm saying I'm trying to say and especially a lot of
immigrant people getting justice by this process, okay, under white people are different culture,
Western culture people is not going to get real justice. Because if even if, like a bit between I'm
supposed to round people, if someone a judge, maybe they have some family problem, like I said
family issues, family issues, then also they work together, right, they began to work issues. So actually,
it is a familiar problem. But they work together in the same place, you know, saying so slowly. You
know, some people will look at Oh, this is in a workplace but some people familiar on people within our
this is this. So those time, people very difficult to understand the justice to people what is really
happening, you know, people don't understand. Maybe we need to like where we are doing a lot of
educational stuff like if that don't you know you do your thing we do our thing fasting we educating
people same way we need to educate our justice system like this country married people of color
immigrants and other people. But originally I did believe like a written by the people to benefit their own
people that was you know when they did all this stuff so that's why I believe systematic change real
change to be happen based on my experience and otherwise if you can be someone very you know
that people all behind you without understanding anything sometimes you don't understand a lot of
things but we call one of the Justice problem is like we pay attention to chili a cow can eat Chili Chili,
can you guess? Why does everyone agree? What is that? Like if
Maheen Zaman 1:16:06
it was gonna be like, if a dog bites you? Do you bite the dog back? Right? Like that's the nature of the
dog you don't behave the same way as them is because it does that too.
Ruhel Islam 1:16:16
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Yeah, one of the one of the Hassan Avi writing writer he wrote this about like his ego, tried to take a
nap, yes, is here and then this guy going after Eagle why people asking him why deny their night, oh,
the eagle took my ear, you know, run run run then later someone says oh, just quite a new sees the the
O is here. But Whole day whole night he ran off there you go because you got so these are the stuff
here going on, you know sometimes. And then also in social media world, good thing and bad thing,
you know, sometimes really good staff can become bad investor become good, they change. I'm like
sometimes nervous about those things. And I'm embarrassed sometimes about what happening here in
America, you know, police to other people, and also also like a I see some kind of anti Muslim policy
some kind of even though we have a more freedom here, you know, what something is there, which is
like it any war going against very example, if you open your eyes, if you say anywhere or going against
a Muslim or Muslim against anything is become a different category, when you know when like suppose
Russia and what is called that? A crane, right? Nobody calling no one terrorist, there are bad people.
When these are like we need to understand speak out about this is very important to for the change our
young generation, how through intergenerational conversation or to learn from our elder, how do you
experience this, then these kids, they can make a difference if you only if you tell have a conversation,
not from the history, history written by the winner, he never get a real history from a book only got
booked can be a real story, you know. But there is a real story is written by because there is a whoever
when they change it back in Bangladesh, everything checking was even though Mawlana bhashani. We
had our very leader who really that their name is disappear. They're familiar is a begging, begging that
a very becoming bigger, and I can only take care of them. But people are calling themselves
something, something something, you know, this thing everywhere.
Maheen Zaman 1:19:04
The contact monitor person he was a Muslim wrestler, but also socialist and advocate of the farmers
and workers both. And he created the the People's Party only. And this didn't win in the 60s. Then he
became you know, it was taken over by somebody else. But and he's from this area of silicon, Assam
and did all this work there to give all the Black Panther Party all the power to all the people. And he
believed in that. And then a family took over that party who then claimed to be the founding father and
all these different things. So that's a contentious thing bothers you politics. But I'm so happy to hear
that, you know, you advocate for sharing storytelling between different generations. And you have
children. Your daughter became famous because she quoted you in the newspaper. And they weren't
abolish, like I've grown up there. You've grown up there but my kids too. They are American Muslim.
Bangladeshi descent how do they identify in you as well as the three identities Bangladeshi, Muslim,
and American, whereas biology means being Muslim, but here they have to separate the two. How do
you see the you know, with American history to Native Americans, but the first Muslims are black
Muslims and slaved Muslims. And then we have other Muslims right and the weekend was immigrants.
How do those identities Connect? Being Muslim being American being moms for you? And for the next
generation like in your children, what do you envision what do you think will happen for your family in
the future in Minnesota? Because we have a huge Muslim community now me coming on to Somali
refugees has changed everything for the city
Ruhel Islam 1:20:44
yes actually Somali refugees contributed to Muslim community in America a lot winning culture make it
very normal in in you know what I'm what I'm working interfaith relations intergenerational relation I'm
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hoping to make change I want to like a see my daughter can tell you know my we are Bangladeshi
origin proudly but how is a home teaching telling participating the stuff I'm doing leading by example for
not only my family a lot of family a lot of community actually in all around the world now in London in I
when I went to London I see New York everywhere and also like when I was growing up one more tear
I also watch our color is a problem we have a racism problem in third world country like Bonacci
colorism programs we have a we had caste system which is you know right after Islam came to
Bangladesh to cover from you know caste system is disappear still poor people maintained within but
there was like a equality to you know this thing with Islamic culture body quality over there and in
America I feel you know a lot of stuff I supposed to be supposed to do as a Muslim and as a rapper
from Orlando my mom and I grew up in the Muslim community in the family I feel everything is here like
America festival the charity is very remote month of Ramadan and they do if you give charity days like
official he actually did some part of the debit vector community and you get benefits and stuff and
charity you're supposed to do a lot as a Muslim anyway go you know this is your this is I feel here a
different angle then I try to tell my kids look we did this but here also officially then somehow they all
equal in like you can call even though before I thought you know 100 years later I will get justice but
justice something you have to advocate for it then you can get just you have to work hard to get just it's
not easy. It cannot take for granted you have to fight for it. immigrant community Bangla community like
a normal our generation we normally have before our elder who came they were not ignoring but they
don't have to be bothered like oh no, forget it. I'm not gonna involve in our generation like me
personally, I get involved with community building community, because our children grow up here they
have to list their country and also they cannot be culturally lost. But to be a good citizen, good human
being. You have to have your roots you have to know where the roots come from. The way we have to
know whether food come from there's a whole society we did it. We have to know root confirm, you
know, any she's become unbusinesslike if you cool I know. Emily, maybe you cook in a few of our spice
something they do too much salt. What will happen? unbalancing if you were too much chili powder, too
much turmeric is healthy, but if you put too much, it's become unbalanced. So what is going on in the
world? Here? We we we advocate without we do as America promote democracy all around the world.
You know, but also i Everyday I try to land what is going on because this is also creating revenue for
America as the America immigrant. When you start dreaming about America to come America, you will
Start paying money, spending money on America the day one, pay a fee for these a day, a lot of stuff
involved. Some people land some people sell their land to come to America. You know, these are
expensive or maybe you cannot afford to do all this thing you know, come to America then I tell my kids
you are because I was born here going to school, all the access, you will complete our country, all the
facility as a you know, like a wonderful retirement benefit with a ba ba This is all part of our culture, our
culture teachers to do this, but this is officially doing it you know, so that's why I feel I found my own
little thing you can do it right. You can practice it. Only if you want, you can use it, how you want to live
your life. And don't forget who you are, we can get there. These were I telling my kids and I can take
them to mostly when I pass the library movement the parents are telling Winona LaDuke in the policy, I
participate all these things because I they said that celebration when they when they do what it called
the poaching wild rice poaching and stuff in our waters our best. The River of our bequest exactly same
then after harvest, they celebrate happy celebration. We have this culture in Bangladesh we season six
season celebration they also celebrate six Season Four Season Arbaaz fall these they're you know
fishing everything we do also fishing celebration they do in celebration, you know, and another
important thing when I connect we are all related we are connected with with food, water, whether she's
- 20 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
getting fish, everything, but in Minnesota, you know we have ice fishing the first time when I went to go
ice fishing I was surprised and shocked making the old getting cast a fish and this is like a different
feelings you don't want to use if you're a first time you can have that feeling. And if you're a fish guy
from Minnesota fish guy, you can feel those feelings get very sub surprised because we survived and I
learned about PCs under the water water is you know, I went with a DNR. I really like it. Then when i i
Could I was so lucky I get a big fish right away, you know, look at the tap, tap tap that big northern pike
and I was photoshooting you know, and photoshooting and I'm planning Oh, I'm gonna go I have a
cylinder in the winter in my basement. I have a pitch region in my basement. I have a this pin as I'm
making manos. Then gender officer says no, you have to put it away is a big fish who say no, it's more
than 22 inches so there is a protection for the fish to in America. Security disagree. Oh man, I don't
care. No, no, no, you get fine. So I run and also like you eat fish because fish is available because
they're protecting the fish. This what I'm saying our culture and the Islamic culture the Muslim supposed
to protect the fish, but like the enemy or not eat all of them keep for a generation with chicken or lamb
and everything. So these are the you know, experiences I feel so good about. I'll take all my kids with
me to run fishing for my kids, I'll know now how to cook is a survival thing to learn. And it's a problem
there. Remember, food brings people together you are hungry, you angry, you eat good food.
Everybody medicina food is a medicine they will calm you down then you have a conversation and
dialogue then you can make the world better plays and you can have it can be the change and you can
even make a difference when you were covering so you need to eat good food. If you need to have a
good food you have to know the food come from that means you have to grow your own food
Emily 1:29:31
I think this might be my last question to ask. So if there's one thing you could say to the world what
would it be? Just like a final message
Ruhel Islam 1:29:44
lot of thing coming i don't know i One of the things recently I'm facing like a people a lot of people
become greedy so be fair to each other. I'm trying to say this Be fair that's when they are going to be
get healing. If you're not fair you're going to be get your own feelings. So be fair, you know to each
other right ways to be treated. And I again say like you know, also reminding people that karma you do
bad things come back to you. Even though my business burned down. It's a material victory the brick,
right? We can rebuild again. But also have time, then good. 10 comes. So don't be stressed out about
heartache, try to learn how to move forward and don't move forward and learn from those things and
you know, do it better. last two years. If I just cry cry or my original burn down, no, then I'll be still set.
Next day I woke up by say I'm alive, building gone. But the community we build it is there. And we are
those work those building community now in a sense of belonging is there because of that. So be fair to
each other. I'll say again,
- 21 -
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let'... Show more
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let's start off by having you tell tell me about yourself.
RA
Yeah, I'm right now I work at a recycling nonprofit in Minneapolis, educating people about
recycling and composting. Before that, I was a case manager. I interned and then Americacorps
and then worked at a nonprofit for a total of eight years. So I left that job about a year ago. And
yeah, should I go into like family history, or?
RT
Well, my next question, I guess is, tell me about your family?
RA
Yeah. So, my family came to the states in 1990. Where they they left Kuwait because of the
Gulf War invasion. So they were given the opportunity... Really, it was luck and just chance so
when the Gulf War invasion was happening, the only reason why my family got the option to
come to the States was... or got the option to leave Kuwait we didn't know that it would be to the
States was because one of my brothers was born in Florida. My parents had him so he's a US
citizen. So it was a US citizen in a war zone. So we I think, my mom I think we got on the last
plane leaving Kuwait before no more people could leave. My parents had 24 hours to decide
what to do. So they're given I don't know about the government been notified, like you can
leave, but you have to decide within this within 24 hours.
And I think, sadly, that's not, that wasn't like a new thing necessarily for my parents to have to
do, except for they had four kids, whereas they've escaped war multiple times in their lives. Like
collectively, it's been four times between the two of them where they've had to leave their home
because of war because of like, safety. So they decided to leave and they also within those 24
hours, had to pack everything that they could so they left everything thinking maybe that they
would come back. I don't I don't know if they thought it was like a permanent forever thing. But it
was. We couldn't go back.
And we ended up - so the first flight was to London. And then the flight was to North Carolina.
And right now still, there's a lot of I think there's a lot of immigrants in North Carolina from that,
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
from when that was happening. The only reason why we ended up in Minnesota is that my dad
went to school - I think he went to college with somebody who works, worked here. My dad
connected with him and the person said, Listen, like, we will like, come here, and I'll like help
you out. And so we came here and we have not left. So that was, that's like a major part of like,
how its shaped - how my life has been shaped but I can get into a little bit of history with my dad
leaving.
So he is - we're Palestinian and my dad was seven or eight when the occupation was
happening in Palestine, and was forced out. And I think it was '49 when his family had to leave,
so he has memory of like being forced out so when I said like, this wasn't his first time
experiencing this - It's because in Palestine, they had everything take everything taken away,
forced out and ended up in Syria.
And my mom has memory of just war. And I don't want to say that, like, it's all terrible and war
is... like, it's not like there wasn't joy, but there's so much war that has shaped my parents and
led us hear. So my dad's experience in addition to just like our story of immigration, or
immigrating here, and like being refugees, but like, we came here, because my brother is a
citizen and like this weird, like, refugee immigrant status, but then not having like a country of
origin because we're Palestinian was weird. It's still kind of weird.
So anyway, my dad ended up in Kuwait because of school and work and my mom moved to
Kuwait with her family when she was younger and they met there. And when we came to the
States, it was 1990. So I was a baby. Like, I don't I didn't know any. I didn't know any of this. So
we got to the States. And my dad was a pharmacist and he couldn't practice because - I know
that he took the exam maybe twice here to be able to practice here but I don't know if it was a
language barrier. I don't know if it was like not being able to like continue leaving to take the
test. I don't know maybe for some reason I have in my mind that he had to go to Chicago to take
this exam. But that could be just something I have mixed up but regardless, he couldn't he
couldn't become a pharmacist here. I'll - even though he had years of school he was a
practicing pharmacist, so that's just like another thing that they had to leave behind. You know,
like a piece of your identity, like all of your identity, you know, what you worked for.
So, we were really lucky where we met people who... I don't know how we met them, but they
were involved in our lives forever. Like the woman who was - like helped us with like getting
coats and like pots and pans and like getting us settled and like putting my brothers into Title
One classes to make sure that they're able to like, have assistance with learning English and
reading English.
There were those people there like, we had such a lucky situation, because like, we had
connection, and then I don't, I don't know how we met this family. But we had like, support
forever. We've always been surrounded by really supportive people. And it was important back
then, because it's like, my parents world got turned upside down. They had four kids under,
like, I don't know, probably under 15. And one was an infant, which is me. And it's like, you're in
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
this entirely new world, unexpectedly. So we got a lot of support from people. Like when we
when we came.
So, we lived in an apartment and my parents both worked pretty like odd jobs... factory work
and my dad owned a corner store in St. Paul called Craig's Country Boy. And his name - people
used to call him Ernie and his name is Awny and that always we still laugh about it today - that
people would call him Ernie. I know it's like classic - I don't even know if you would like, like, tell
them that wasn't this name is like, Okay, this is what it is.
Yeah, and eventually, my mom got a position as a teacher. Doing... right now she's a special ed
para. But back then she had like, various roles and para professional, like, as a para
professional.
And my brothers and I, I mean, we like assimilated. And I guess I'll only talk like speak for
myself. But I think growing up - we grew up in Anoka, which is like, pretty white, pretty Christian
more than - I mean, I would say Christian and then white. It's like, you know where people's
values are. Um, so, yeah, I'm just like, Can I go into like, growing up in Anoka?
RT
Yeah, please.
RA
. . . being a Muslim... Should I reel it in?
RT
You're right on track.
RA
I so went to school, and I did not know of really any other Muslims, except for like, one or two
families, but was never really connected with them, just for whatever reason. But I think like, as I
got, as I was older, I realized all of the, like, terrible things that I experienced, but I didn't even
realize we're terrible just because there was nothing to like, red, like, show me red flag, I guess.
Um, so yet, I really tried. And is is like, something I regret so much as like, I like lost the
language so fast. I spoke Arabic. Like, I mean it's, my parents still speak it, my dad almost
exclusively speaks in Arabic. My mom, I mean, they're both still fluent.
My older brothers are like, like, they, they can talk and like, understand, and I lost a lot of it. And
it really was, like, I'm just trying to fit in, I'm just trying to like survive in Anoka. Like, where you
know that you're different, There are different, like, it's, you just know, you're different. So I think
I just tried super hard to, like, blend in. Not that I ever denied that I was Muslim, ever. Um, but it
was just like, you just try to get by and like to have as much of a normal life because you've had
these, like, your parents have had these traumatic experiences, and like your siblings remember
things of was?
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
So yeah, it's just like, your, it's just so hard to find the spot to be content with both these lives,
like when you're young, and, you know, you're like families trying to, like, keep this, like, keep
the language alive, keep the culture alive. But at the same time, you're like going to school and
you're trying to just like, be like other people. And just like be... normal, but normal didn't have, it
shouldn't have been that I needed to sacrifice one thing for the other. That was,
I mean, maybe it's because of the time that we were, like, my age of like, oh, like in the 90s, or
in the early 2000s. Like, that's just the way it was people weren't as like, open or, like, willing to
hear you out. I would say, I'd say that it's still a problem. Like, I mean, of course, it's still a
problem. But I'm just looking back at it. Like all I wanted us to just like have a normal life.
And not to say my parents didn't provide because they, I mean, I think five years after we came
to the States, they bought a house. Like, they truly like, hustled and like, did everything they
could to, like never make us feel like we were like in a crisis. Like they did everything they could
to provide for their kids. And they did I mean, they have four grown kids that are like, healthy
and have careers and like, it's truly like the ideal story of a family coming here. Yeah, but it is
like we had a lot of - we were lucky with who we knew. So I digress but...
RT
Yeah, cool. I want to ask you, what was the attitude towards religion in your house growing up?
RA
It was... like, very, there like, religion was important to my family. I remember we would do, like,
Qur'anic studies with other Muslim families. All of my siblings and I, at one point, were in
Sunday School for Islamic Studies and for the language. I mean, still now my dad is like, you
know, reciting things from the Qur’an, or like talking religion but I mean, when I was younger, it
was like, You hang on to that, that's like, we're not in the Middle East. We're not in like, this isn't
where we're from. We're here, but we do have our religion. So we're going to, like, hold that and
practice it and be proud of who we are and where we're from.
And I'm really thankful for that. Like, I love being proud of my heritage, and the religion and like,
where I come from - being a Palestinian, even though I've never been. Like, and I think that's to
do with them of like, no, you're going to - just this is how it is, you know, not that we're all like,
super religious, or we all have our different like, spectrums, or, like levels of belief, or whatever.
But...
RT
You do have different levels of belief with your family?
RA
Yeah, I mean, I think like...
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
...Was it always like that?
RA
I don't think so. I think when you grow up, in general, you start to just like form your own ideas...
or not ideas, but like, you have more space to like, Think for yourself. And I think that now, it's
so much about - in my eyes, it's like keeping the culture alive. Like the practice of, like,
celebrating, I mean, that's like a tradition. And that's a very important thing to our family. So you,
you take the day off, you go to prayer with your family, and you have a super big meal. And you
celebrate, like the end of Ramadan, like, those things are so like, embedded in my family.
And like, I think they're - my mom especially is so good at like, we are going to engage your
nieces and nephews, we're going to, like, make this fun and make make this... like, you know,
my nephew, just the other day was like, I love Easter because of the Easter egg hunt. It's like,
oh, cause my two of my brothers married, like, white people that are from here. And like, they
converted. So they're raising their kids Muslim, but like, they have family, like their family
members are Christian, whatever. So I was like, wow, like, how do we make Ramadan... like,
like, engaging? or whatever... So it's like, let's do like a lantern hug- hunt, or whatever. So it's
like, how do we keep it important? Like, how do we keep the tradition and the culture alive?
Because you don't want it to be lost over time. Because it's such a beautiful thing. Like, how do
you keep... How do you keep young people engaged? Like, what do you teach them? What do
you show them? What do you want them to carry with them that's positive to share with the
world to like, stop looking at you in such a negative way.
My mom hosted - my older brother has a couple buddies that she hosted for the Fourth of July.
And she made this like super Palestinian meal, like our favorite meal, we had it like a barbecue
outside, and it was super nice. And she had like American flag paper plates and napkins. And
we were like, Mom, like, Why are you like doing this? Like, why you like being like this? And she
said, like, I want, I want people to know that we're just like them. And that was like, I understood
her so much... in that moment of we're just like you, we like the same things. We can celebrate
the Fourth of July, there's no difference.
And I take - what I take from it is like... these people who... one couple who brought their kids,
like they're going to like, their kids will remember us, ideally. And instead of like listening to what
people say on the news of like stereotypes of Arabs or Muslims, they like have a person to
associate that like positive, that positive experience with and say like, Well, no, just because this
person's Muslim doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean that they're terrorists, because some
people really think that and that's because their parents teach.. teach them or the classroom
teachers it or whatever.
So it's like, you keep your culture. And sometimes it's like, not even the religion, but like, the
culture is so important. And it's a beautiful thing. And it like makes you want to like, hold it
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
tighter, the more negative thing like the more than negative things happen. And oddly, like it's a
protective thing. Like... Yes. Yeah, you just want to protect it because it was beautiful, like you you think of all these, like family gatherings, and like the music and the laughter and the
language, and the people associated, it's like, it's beautiful. You don't want to lose that. And you
want people to know that it's, you're just like them just from a different place.
RT
So then that's kind of like, you know, that's your, your, your parents keeping their culture alive in
their home. And then as we like, get more into the conversation about school and kind of
bumping up against like, you know, American culture.
RA
Yeah.
RT
How was school? What was the attitude towards school and in your home? Like, with your
parents?
RA
Yeah. I mean, it was, like, you're going to school, and you're going to do well. I think a lot of
parents, but like, think that way they want their kids to do well, but I, for my parents, it was like,
you're going to do well, you're going to go beyond, like, ideally, you're not going to stop at
college, you're going to go beyond, like you're going to go to grad school, you're going to be a
doctor or a whatever. Like it was school first, above anything, because that was like the
foundation of your life is going to be like your success in school is going to take you places.
And I think... there was no question about me going to college. And, like, knowing that they my
parents did what, whatever they could to be able to let me go to college and to be able to take,
like a financial burden off of me, because it's education is like, everything. It really is everything.
And especially to my dad, because he did - He went through so much school. And he went to
school in a time where you like had to hand draw your like, plants that you're growing like, I
don't know, he's a pharmacist so like, the beautiful plants that you had to hand draw that you
were studying, you didn't have a graph for you didn't have a thing like a projector or whatever.
So it's like to him, you go to school, you maybe run into issues with like, ignorant people. And if
you ever need - if they ever needed to intervene on something they would, but they knew... I
think especially after September 11th happened, they knew that like, it wasn't always going to
be easy for us even more.
But I can't ever remember a time where they just like, brush school aside or your education
aside. It's just, it wasn't a question. I'm so thankful for it. Like, I've never just like miss school all
the time. Thankfully, I had a mom who could drive me to school if I ever needed to. I took the
bus or whatever. But it was never a question that I was like, not going to do well in school. It
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
wasn't like a toxic environment at all. But I was like, No, like, I'm going to go to school, and I'm
gonna, like, try hard. And like have hiccups. But still, like, take it seriously.
RT
Sounds like you're very supported in that endeavor.
RA
Oh, totally. Absolutely.
RT
And then so in the school, what were your friendships like? Like, who did you associate with?
What did you do for fun with your friends?
RA
Yeah, I, I had a best friend who I hung out with all the time. And a few other friends where we
were just like, talk between classes all the time. And on weekends, I was not allowed to go to
football games. That was like the big thing in Anoka, and probably everywhere in high school.
But just because it's like not a normal thing in like, you don't go to like a football game. This is
not a thing back home. Or like it's not a normal thing. And also like very, like, strict parents too
like they're only daughter doing random foot- what's a football game? No, you're not going.
RT
They have futball, like soccer...
RA
They have soccer. But it's also like with other Muslims and like met with all these other variables
that you can't control or you have no idea what it's like, like, my dad is older. So to him, it's like,
no, like, you're not doing that you're not going to prom. Like what is - no, like? Absolutely not. So
it was a lot of like, I could not do a lot of what my friends did in high school. Because my dad
was strict. And because of was just like not as... it just simply wasn't a thing that you did...So...
RT
How was that?
RA
Oh, it was terrible. It was awful. It was awful! Because I didn't I mean, I still don't understand. I
don't think that that's like a good way to protect a kid. I think. Luckily, I like stayed out of
dangerous situations when I moved out because I think so a lot of people are like, okay,
whatever I'm like, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want to and I'm just gonna, like, be
reckless. Thankfully, that didn't happen to me. But I think like it totally could have it happens to
people all the time. I don't think it was I don't think that's a healthy thing. I think they wanted me
to be safe and they wanted me to be healthy and have a safe home. But I also think like, there if
there comes a point where you have to like give a little and say okay, we're not like this isn't
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
Kuwait, this isn't Syria, it's not Jordan, we have to like recognize that this is a norm and just
because you're doing this thing that maybe you never did like a parent never did when they
were younger. It doesn't mean that this your kid's gonna lose everything about culture just
because they're going to like a football game.
But yeah, other than that we would like meet on weekends like weekdays just do or weekend
days, my friends and I would just like do stupid stuff like go to BestBuy and they had those like
new Mac Book photo booth photos... we would do stupid stuff like that.
There's not much to do in Anoka... just go to the BestBuy, go to Subway. Yeah, and like
hanging out at people's houses. This friend one of my best friends there from high school that I
don't have any contact with anymore. Because she was also... she is evangelical Christian, like
later I realize like, the intent a lot of times it's like trying to get get me to convert, which was like
a very sad thing to realize...
RT
In high school?
RA
Yeah, in high school. And like would like weirdly say like super disrespectful things about the
religion - about my religion versus hers.
So that was like a weird thing to just like, have this friend for so long. And then finally be like, oh,
like she's kind of terrible to me. But that's again, like when you get out of it. And you're like, Oh,
that's not normal to like, be told that your belief is bad. Because even though I'm Muslim, I am
like, Who am I to say anybody else is wrong for what they believe? That's but that's the type of
person I am. Doesn't matter to me what you believe or don't believe it's like, we're all on the
playing fields. Like if you're a good person, that's great. Like, we can coexist together. So yeah.
RT
Did that come to a head in high school or after high school?
RA
I think there was one time that has really stuck with me that I think is like shaped, like shaped
the way we just kind of drifted apart... it was, Eid... So after Ramadan, it happened like the most
joyous, like, exciting day. And I think we were talking on the phone, because I didn't go to
school that day, because you get off school because it's celebration. And she had said, I don't
even know why it came up. But she had said, I just want you to know, like, I don't think what
you're doing is right, talking with like, celebrating, like believing in the Prophet Mohammed.
Or maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like she had said, like, I don't think what you're doing is right.
And maybe even said that I like thought I was going to hell - that could be me fogging it with a
teacher that didn't have a good conversation with. But regardless, that really like, was so hurtful
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
for someone to say that on like, such a such a special day, where I was always like, super open
to, like hearing about her religion.
And like even I don't even think my parents knew that I did this because they would probably
back then would have like, had a meltdown. But I would go to the like, Christian group thing at
high school in high school, where the like, Sure, I'll like go to this thing with you. But then later
realizing like what the hell like, Oh, no, like, this is just kind of all like a ploy. It was weird. After
she had said that, to me, it was really hurtful. And I kind of was just like, what, like, that's not
how a friend should be. And I never thought that about her, or the religion. I just never was like,
you're wrong. And you're a bad person for what you believe. And then after high school, she
had gone to like a very Christian College. So I think after that was just like a natural... like, oh, I
realized you really weren't a good friend. Like, super funny. Her family was like really welcoming
and lovely. But then they're... like, the negatives just outweighed the positives, just because I
realized even if you're you like young, and you say dumb stuff, so still, like very hurtful. And like,
she knew what she was saying, because it was like, so specific to you know, you're wrong for
what you believe. And that's sadly like, what their church taught them. So...Yeah...
RT
You talked earlier about like, wanting to fit in when you were young? Like younger? Like I was
imagine, like elementary age. Did that carry through through high school? Did you feel
assimilated, or whatever it was, by the time you were in high school?
RA
I did. I - people still knew that I was Muslim, mostly I mean, it was people that I had, like, known,
you know, all throughout Elementary, early middle school, high school. So people knew but it
was... it was not something I like, talked about all the time, not out of shame. But just to like,
make it through to like, not be "othered". Because I think it's super easy in high school to be
"othered" if there's like anything different with you, and I'm lucky- I mean, I, I had the idea of like,
okay, like, I can like do everything you all can. Like I can talk about the same things, I can have
same, like similar experiences with you just because like... Just because I have a family that has
a different religion, or I believe in something else that's like, outside of the norm doesn't mean I
have to be so different from you. And like I was craving that like, acceptance. I don't think I ever
got it. Or maybe I like from some people I did, but like, from... teachers, like, there's an awful
experience of like, you... my teacher joked about how - a few there were a few comments that
he made. But like one of them was... I think we were like joking about something. And he was
like, well, you're going to hell... But.. not.. I said something about religion, but like was like well
you're going to hell and I know what it's for. And it was like, very like, explicit. Like, it was like a
joke... A "joke", quote, you know, like, Ha Ha jokey, but like, that was a very loaded joke. And
like, talking about that to somebody in college, I realized, like... Oh, that was like, very racist...
very inappropriate to say to a student. And like, even if you didn't mean it.. I don't even think he
didn't mean it. Because why would you say that?
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And then another one was, like somebody joked about... this makes me so sad... But joked
about... like, said something about me being Muslim, and then was like "bomb squad!" And then
like, we like joked about it... Because I was like, okay, it's like a joke... But, yeah, it's just terrible.
It's like, you're trying really hard to assimilate into just like, be there. But you're also like hanging
on to your, like, your religion so like clearly it was like, I guess it was clear that I was Muslim.
And like that I was not shy about it. I probably wear a necklace that said God and Arabic, I'm
sure I did, because I wore it all the time. But it wasn't like, I didn't like talk about religion all the
time. Because that's just never, ever what I was like, and it's never like, I still am not like that.
But it was clear that I was different. Like you people just love to hang on to that in school,
especially like, you just love to, like, focus on that thing that makes you different. I don't know if
it's different now... As people... like, I mean, I can't say that Anoka has changed in that way.
Like... I don't even know if that teacher is still a teacher, probably is... But yeah, you just like, it
wasn't like a shitty time, like every day, but it was still like, there's clearly these things I like,
hung on to years after college, or I'm sorry, years after high school, because it's like, you don't
realize that stuff.
Maybe it's because I just didn't want to and then when I was around people who - to actually say
to me, like that wasn't okay. Like you shouldn't have like, why did that person make you watch
Passion of the Christ? That's not okay. Like, that's weird to do. Like, it's not until you have
people outside of that, that say that, that makes you think critically is like, oh, like, high school
was kind of just about being Muslim, but then being okay with people making jokes, and then
being scared when something like 911 happened or other attacks by Muslims or the war, like,
hoping that like you're not targeted for something, because of who you are. Because of what
people who claim to be Muslim do. It's like, a tricky balance to like, have normalcy. And then,
like, still be thinking about all that stuff.
Oh like... people hate where I'm from, like the reality like knowing like, oh, people really hate
where I'm from, and kind of trying to be like an ambassador to be like, not all people are like
this, like, not all Muslims, like, hate America, not all Muslims are going to like, bomb
somewhere. And that was like, the reality is like the closed mindedness there in schools, like
you actually had to try to say that. And I had a friend who told me like, honestly, if I had never
known you, I would just like, think everything on the news was true about like, what I hear about
you.
And I think that's still the case for some people in some areas, but it's like, Okay, I guess like, if I
got that one person, maybe they're, it's kind of like what my mom did for that dinner. It's like, oh,
like, maybe they'll hang on to that. Yeah, like, oh, not every, not every not every Muslim is
gonna like, not every Muslim hates America, and not every Muslims like out to kill people.
RT
Yeah. And hopefully, or I like to think too is like, you know, you only know a tiny fraction of the
people that you did that for, you know, how many people just knew you and just by that virtue if
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you weren't even good friends with them was like, oh, maybe this is okay. Or at least at least
gives them the idea...
RA
Yeah. Yeah! Yeah! It's plants, plants a seed... Yeah. And I mean, there are some friends from
high school, one in particular, that I'm still really close with. And we've even talked about that
stuff, like high school is weird. And like these weird things happened. Like, that's not normal... or
like that super Christian person... Like, she was kind of mean, and like reflecting like, as adults,
of how... l
I don't know what the word is, but how isolating it can be. It's just, it can be such an isolating
experience. If you have teachers that are saying, like, really inappropriate things, or you're not
surrounded by people that are like, look like you. But I don't think that - I mean, I pass as white.
So there's like some people that can tell like, oh, like, you're not white or like you're... some
people think I'm like, Hispanic or, or Spanish. So it's like, oh, you're not you're not from here. But
most of the time, I could, I could just pass. So it's like, knowing that I have the passing privilege,
but also knowing that like, they are not like me, like, I don't see anybody that looks like me in my
school.
It does shape who you are. Kind of like what we were talking about earlier. Like you don't you
can see yourself fitting into a place if you see others that look like you. But until you do that,
you're going to feel kind of like you don't belong, or, like you don't fit in. Which is weird. Cause,
yeah, high school wasnt awful, but it's just like these things shaped who you become and like
how you look at, like, what you would want to do for your kids and like, what you would want to
teach other kids of, like, inclusivity , and like, being equitable and like fair and kind. Yeah.
RT
I did want to ask about dating in high school... And if that was a possibility for you? or something
that you did?
RA
No, absolutely not.
RT
...yeah if you couldn't go to football games...
RA
No, absolutely. I think that's a great question. Because it's such a normal thing. Like in American
culture to, like, have boyfriends or to like, go on dates... Yeah, prom is this huge thing... That
was not... Not the case for me. But it's also I think it's two things. It's that, like, culturally, you just
don't date around. Like, that's not a, like an Arab Middle Eastern thing. It's, you don't do that.
And that was my first point is like, it's not a thing to do.
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And second, my - no - I'm the only girl, youngest daughter. It was like, the idea would cross my
mind. But there's no way that it would have happened. You know, it's like, yeah, I didn't, there
was no like option for it, I think. Because you don't like go on dates. You don't have a boyfriend.
Like the idea is... It's not a thing that exists. Maybe it's like, also like, my dad, where he came
from and his upbringing too... like, much more conservative.
And just that's not in his realm of thinking even now. It's like, what? like, dating is just yeah, so it
was a no go.
RT
Yeah. And maybe you relate to this, maybe not... but what role - you mentioned, like being the
only daughter. And so I'm wondering, what role did gender play? Either at school or at home? If
there was like, a different experience or similar experience? or...
RA
Yeah, I think gender played a huge role, huge role. Very... like, the family structure was very
much like patriarchal. So like, I think I stumbled on that word, but you get it. Of... as the
youngest. And as the girl, there's like, not much say, you're gonna like, Listen to what your dad
says. So I think like it had everything to do with my upbringing. And that's even those are things
I'm still like working on now. If like...
Your role is like, as a woman or a man or, like still unpacking all that stuff that I learned as a kid
that I'm like, I'm like, working on unlearning now. Of like, oh, like, you can still make your own
decision and like, have the right decision, even if, like a man doesn't approve or doesn't agree
with you. But when I was younger, that wasn't an option. It was very much like, you're going to
listen to what your dad said. And there is no question about it.
And I think in school, I probably had the same mindset, because that was what it was like, in - at
home. Like, no, you ask your mom, but like your dad usually ultimately has the say, like the end
say, like, he's the head of the house. He makes the decisions. So it... Yeah...
RT
Was there a difference then between you and your brothers? How you and your brothers were
treated?
RA
Yeah, 100% yeah. Oh thats my alarm... sorry.
Alright, so yes, the roles, like the treatment between my brothers and I was very clear, my
brothers used to be able to go out with their friends. Go to Minneapolis, like do all these things
that I was not allowed to do. And when I was eventually allowed to, I could never really go out
late. Like, it was so clear, it was a very, like, so, so unfair, based on me being a woman. Yeah...
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RT
So then I'm wondering, to what extent did you accept or challenge that growing up?
RA
Yeah, I would try to challenge it. But I think it wasn't met with much. You know, I didn't win. The
thing I will say that I did... that changed... Or the thing that happened that is not common for
women is to... well... I shouldn't say like, generally, but I moved away for college whereas
initially I was driving every day. But eventually, I think maybe like two months in I like had a
meltdown. Because I was driving so much. It was really stressful. So my dad was like, Yeah,
like I see, I see how stressed you, I see how tired you are. So I did end up moving to campus.
And I didn't move back home, which was very against cultural norms of like, you should stay,
like, keep living at home until you're married. And I have to say, That's still like something that
my dad like, is hurt by like to this day.
And I think that was my own way to like, take a quick - take hold and take control of that. Like, I
am like, a grown up. And just because I'm a woman, like it doesn't mean I can't like do what I
want to or live independently.
It is challenging, like, even as a 28 year old, being faced with that, like guilt and, like, shame. I
mean, there's lots of things with shame and guilt. And it's, it's hard. And I'm, I think it'll be less
hard eventually. But knowing that it like, I know I made the right decision, like recognizing you're
not a bad person, just because you didn't move back home, you know, but still being like, okay,
like, this isn't a normal thing. And it's not going to be a normal thing for my dad. I mean, my
mom was like, fine, she's over it, like, whatever, like live your life, but my dad is like, you never
moved back home. You know, like, and is really hurt by that. Um, so it still plays a role for sure,
like, still right now plays a role, but it's just a matter of now. How am I willing? Like, what am I
willing to do to like, take a lead on that and say, like, put it on to my terms instead of somebody
else's terms? ...takes a lot of practice, and it's exhausting.
Definitely, like, don't have it down. But it is like, I have the tools now to use. You know, I'm older
and like, I have more of a say, and I can like, I can explain myself better. But knowing that, like
my dad's old, and he's not going to change his mind about a lot of things and coming to terms
with that. For a man who like, got his life taken away, like, a few times, and like trying to hang on
- like goes back to that like hanging on to where you're from and like, hang on to your religion.
And there's only one way to do that to him. Or for him and his eyes. But yeah, I mean, it totally
plays a role. In, in it did then and it does now still.
RT
So you identify with being Muslim and Palestinian. So growing up in school, did you experience
those identities as one of the same? Or have you experienced - are there times when you've
experienced one without the other?
RA
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Yeah, I think that when I was in school, I really only identified - I just like, yeah, I only had the
Muslim part. And I think... now... like learning more, and just like being proud of where you're
from, and wanting your culture to stay alive, and like where you're from, is important. And it's
where your roots are...
In... Yeah, when I was in school, it just wasn't... I don't know - it didn't - it wasn't as important as
it is now. Because I think maybe I just have the capacity to be like, I'm Muslim, like, Middle
Eastern, not Pakistani, not Indian. You know, like, I'm from the Middle East. And that's how I
identified is like, I'm the middle - I'm like, from the Middle East. I think it's still hard - or it was
hard then to like, say yeah, and like Muslim, not white, even though I look white. And having to
like - that was probably more of like, hey, like, we're not white, my parents are darker than I am.
My siblings and I pass as white... I mean in most cases. But there are people who are also
passing in that are like way darker in like, you wouldn't call them white.
So it's like this weird identity of like, yeah, I'm Muslim. I look like you. But I know there's
differences. Now. It's like, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. And I hold those two very close together
and tightly think even more. So when, like tragic things happen. Like the New Zealand shooting
was like - you hold those things even closer to you, to protect them and to like, share positivity,
like positive stories, or just give people different outlook. So yeah.
RT
So you said youre Palestinian Muslim? Does American fit somewhere? Like where, you know,
where does it fit in that?
RA
Honestly, I wish it didn't have such a big place between the three. But it just does. Because I've
been here, this is all I know. So like, I'm an American... for so many reasons. And like in so
many ways. And I also am trying to find ways to like incorporate my Palestinian identity and
honestly try to put it above American. But it's not - it doesn't happen that way. Because it's not
surrounded by Palestinians all the time as I'm surrounded by Americans. And like, it's, yeah, I
am proud that I like have my Palestinian identity. And I'm like, very proud to be a Palestinian I...
Like... it's so close to my heart. I'm like, Yeah, like an American, but I don't see in... as I don't
see it in the same way at all, as I see, being a Palestinian. Being a Palestinian, in my heart
comes first. Because I truly feel like there are roots and like, there's history to that. And it's
special.
And I think part of like, part of the reason is like the story of my dad losing his home, like that
passes on to your kids. And like, I think my parents have done a beautiful job of sharing our like
story of coming here. So I just hold those things so tight. And so it's like the Americanness is
embedded. But I hold being Palestinian higher then I hold being an American. Not saying I like
don't like the privileges that comes with like being a citizen. Because I just became a citizen,
like, three years ago, last March, or three years ago in March. Yeah. So it's a new thing. And I
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kind of don't believe it, I still don't really believe I have, like the protection that you are - that you
get with being a citizen.
But that's because I was, you know, didn't have it for years and years and couldn't work until I
had a green card and had to go through all these loopholes. And so like, doesn't feel real. It's
like cool that I have my citizenship. It's a privilege that I had, like a lawyer and like, assistance
and a car to get to all these places and appointments. But yeah, I think the Palestinian identity
like is like dear to my heart. And it's important to like, share it with people, like I cook Palestinian
meals when I can, I'm like, try to share them with people.
Cuz like you surround yourself. I mean, I surround myself with open minded people on like,
people who would never like, I would never do this, like I would never be around people who
didn't accept me. But its still fun that you like, this is the Palestinian meal and share it with other
people. Like, share your experiences.
RT
Okay, you just said something... about being a citizen - did that weigh on your mind growing up?
RA
It did because I couldn't work for - till I was 20. Excuse me, I like couldn't have a job. I couldn't
like, make my own money because I wasn't - I was - This is like the worst term to like, call a
person - But I was an alien. I had an alien ID. So it weighed on me in the like, knowing that we
weren't citizens, like nobody in my family but my one brother was a citizen. And as for - as long
as I can remember, my parents were working on it. And like, we were supposed to become
citizens, like five years after we were in the States. And then it was seven. And then September
11th happened. And then that was like, oh, like Muslims are terrifying. We're not going to give
them like citizenship.
And on top of that, like being - like having a Syrian passport for a Palestinian refugee. It's hard
to like, "Where are you from?" Youre like, not from anywhere because Palestine is not identified
as a country. You're not a citizen of Syria. You're not a citizen of Kuwait. So that was always
like, that was like pretty, like, pretty constantly, like I was I was aware of it all the time.
But I also was like, Yeah, like we have a lawyer or like somebody who's working on it, or like,
okay, I can't have a job. But at least if like, I can't have a job, but it's better than like, applying for
a job and then, like, being kicked out of America, because you don't have like, your alien card.
You know? So yeah, that's pretty constant all the time. And even now, it's still is because it's
like, what? it took me 25 years to become a citizen. It initially was only going to take me five. So
same for my parents. I mean, they just, they became citizen - or they got their green cards or
citizenship when they when I was 20. Because that's why I could start working is because I got
a green card. So just eight years, they've been citizens - not long. Yeah.
RT
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A couple times, we've kind of like touched on 9/11. And I just, like, want to give the opportunity if
you want to, like talk about, like, anything specific, like around that time. You're old enough to
like remember that. Or, like any, like lasting effects. Obviously, things have gotten more
complicated. But in a lot of the research, there's a lot of - 9/11 is kind of a catalyzing - it's not
catalyzing - but to ... it brings together a lot of Muslim experience, but then a lot of research
started coming out of that big event. The reactions, I guess. So I just wanted to give you time to
talk about that if you want to...
RA
Yeah. Yeah, this is - it's... we'd... I forget - Like me and friends were talking about like, why, like,
when we found out about 9/ 11, and like, how, like, was it appropriate or inappropriate that it
was playing, like, when I was... it was in sixth grade... And I was in sixth grade... And they like, I
remember somebody that worked in the lunch room was running around class to class, saying,
like, they attacked... the Twin Towers or something. And the class like, What are you talking
about? like, what's going on? and the teacher just like, put on the news. So like, they were like,
telling everybody and I don't know, if we watched... I don't think we watched it for the rest of the
day. But I remember like watching it, and it was like nine in the morning, or whatever, their time
nine. So I think it was like our home room or something. And I just remember going home, and
my mom being terrified, because it was Muslims or they were Muslims who did the attacks.
And... just the like, fear and concern of like, being Muslim, and in that time, it was so unsafe. It
was so unsafe. Like women weren't wearing their hijabs, and like, people were getting attacked
and killed... So I think it always like that shaped me... to like, actually have fear or be fearful...
because of like, being Muslim, because now there was like this really big reason why you
should hate Muslims. And like a legitimate like, Oh, they killed a bunch of people. And this like
this... It's so easy to hate a group. Like it's so easy to hate the "other".
And, I mean, when the... shooting in Texas happened on the military base, I think, and like the
various other attacks, I mean, every time I don't think for as long as I live, I don't think I'll ever
not have like a paniced reaction. And like fear. Because, like, 9/11 was terrifying. It was like
tragic. It ruined like the innocence of like, school, like it ruined - it like shaped - You're... like, I
don't know how to say it. It was like being Muslim existing. But then being Muslim after this, like
terrible attack happened in feeling. Like,
at any moment, you could be targeted. At any moment, you can, like, get hurt, or somebody can
say something really painful and mean. And even even now like, honestly, what like my truest
nightmare is like being attacked in the mosque. Because that's like the most sacred and
peaceful place... Just worrying about like, Oh, my God, like, my dad has an accent.
Like... I hope that like when my brothers at Friday prayer, nothing happens to them. Or like,
what if I'm wearing this necklace? and somebody's angry? And like, does something? So it like
shapes how you think of it. And I'm not the only one like, this is totally not like a one, like a
random thing. But I think about it all the time. Like I think about 911 all the time. And like, if that
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didn't happen, where would we be like as a country, in our like, hate towards, towards Muslims,
or, and not even just Muslims, it's people who, like, Sihks who wear who have the long hair, and
people always mistake them for being Muslim. And for just darker skin, people who are
mistaken for Muslims or, like Indian...
Like, people from India who are like, attacked and murdered because people do it of like,
because they think you're Muslim or whatever. It's like, it's always there. It's always there...
constantly for me. And that's just... doesn't like, eat away at me. But it's like a thing, where I
think of my nieces and nephews. And I'm like, oh, like, are they going to be ashamed? Are they
going to be scared to be Muslim? What's their experience going to be? I don't know. It's just,
yeah, it just changes you. Like, it was a sad, it was tragic. And then to be Muslim and have it
happen and like, kind of watch the world turn on you, in a way? is kind of haunting? Yeah.
RT
Yeah, good reason, I think.
RA
Yeah.
RT
I have a few more questions. So I couldn't figure out exactly how to word this question. But this
is how I've got it so far. Did you ever experience negative personal reactions to your Muslim
identity? So for example, did you ever wish to hide it? Or did you ever feel like restricted from it?
So not like from the outside, but like, internally? Did you ever feel like opposed to your?
RA
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that there... the first thing that comes to mind, like when I was younger
was al- like drinking alcohol. Because that's... because Muslims drink alcohol, but it's like, in
their religion, you shouldn't. And I think when I was younger, really like, hating that part of it.
Like I resented that part of the religion, like why not? Like really, because like, especially when,
like, you're in high school, and people are starting to drink or experimenting with alcohol or pot
that's like, as for me, it was more alcohol that people were smoking or drinking.
But you have like this internal Battle of like, do I want to do this? Do I want to just like, put this
identity away for a second? So I can, like, have this experience with people to like, be normal?
Yeah, that's like the biggest thing. Now it's like, whatever, I don't drink and it's barely even
because of religion at this point. I think now, it's like, oh, I've seen it damage a lot of people. I've
gone this long. I'm just like, not going to. Now, it's just like a personal choice. Not to say it's like,
oh, sometimes I would love to, like, have a really nice glass of wine, or, like, enjoy this beer that
all my friends love. And then, there, sometimes I'm like, Oh, I just wish that I was like, put that
little part of guilt away and just like, do it. But I think like, it's kind of like, makes me think of like
Catholic guilt. I don't really know exactly what that means completely. But it's like this, like
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Muslim guilt, like, oh, like, just like, I wish I could just, like, put that away for a second. And enjoy
this thing without feeling guilty.
And like dating, like, come on, like, just let me date? Or like, why is it really that bad? To just
like, date, or to like, meet people and like, learn who you like, or what type of person you like.
And then... the other thing is, like, being someone identifying as gay, like, Why Is that wrong?
But that's like... I don't think when I was in high school, and like, around super Christian people,
is one thing. But then when you shape what you believe yourself, that was like kind of an
internal thing. Like, is it wrong? I don't think it's wrong. Like, at my core, don't think it's wrong.
And so that's just something where I've been like, that's not wrong.
And God... like the relationship between you and whoever you believe, or whatever you believe
is like a personal thing. And... nobody can like judge it or speak on it. And like, my way of
looking at is like, probably like more liberal leaning. I don't know that everybody would
appreciate this but like, yeah, like, God and I have a relationship. I don't necessarily do
everything that like a proper Muslim should do. I know that. And I know that, like, nobody can
define like, what you believe nobody can judge what you have between whatever you believe,
whether it's like, nature, or, like, the beauty of flowers or animals, like nobody can, like speak on
that.
So I think I have those internal battles, especially like, I'm not going to go into this but like dating
somebody who's not Muslim that like internal, like, all right, well, I'm doing this, and it's my own
thing. And it's between me and God, how he wants to, like, God knows your my intentions,
nature knows your intentions. It's just like a very personal, personal experience. It doesn't need
to be judged by others. So yeah.
RT
Yeah, on kind of the other hand, what's the best or most impactful aspect of growing up
Muslim?
RA
Ohhh, I feel like the joy around like celebrating Ramadan and Eid. And like the fam- like the
Arab family gatherings. And like having those experiences as an adult, like those memories of
those happy times, and creating those memories with my nieces and nephews is so special. It's,
it's so meaningful and special. And my parents did such a good job of making it an important
thing. And, yeah, I think the best part is just like what we have now and like what we're able to
teach, like, our young family members, like the celebration, and like, yeah, fasting is super tiring,
especially when- when it's in the summer. And like, I'm super grouchy, because I don't have any
water or coffee, but then you like, eat, and then my mom makes us like really beautiful meal,
and we share it and then we're all tired.
It's like, a beautiful, it's like, beautiful, and, like, fills my heart with joy. And like a sense of
community, even just within my own family. It's like this special thing that we have, that we're
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celebrating on our own, but also with millions of other people. Like simultaneously. It's it's
beautiful to have that and I'm really thankful... for that and to be proud, I think like, they really did
teach us to be proud. My parents did. Like proud of being Muslim for- all say for myself, like I'm
proud of being Muslim. I'm proud of being where I'm from. And I'm proud of what my family
represents. And I also know better than, like, I know that like when you're identifying as Muslim,
but then you do an evil act like you're not actually a Muslim. That's not what the religion is.
Religion is peace. And that's a beautiful thing. Like that's it is a peaceful religion.
And it's so easy to forget that right? Like, like, literally translates to peace - Islam is peace and
like, it's just a nice thing to carry. And to try to tell people... all religion has like, they're really like,
that's not cool. Like, that's not a great, like, way to see things or to talk of people. But it's, you
can hear hang on to the things that you appreciate and agree with. Yeah, they just I think, for
me, they really did teach me of like, pulling me back to my roots of like, Yeah, I don't like I'm not
the best practicing Muslim. Like, I will absolutely admit that. And I still hold it close and
appreciate it and like have a lot to learn still. So yeah...
RT
...that's really beautiful... Okay, so I want to wrap it up by just asking if there's anything you wish,
like in your schooling and growing up that your teachers and peers would have known about
you and your religion. And you can take it either looking into the past or like looking towards the
future, like, Is there anything that educators should know about their Muslim students?
Yeah. I feel like... one thing that I wish was wish that was different, like from my school
experience, was making sure that students didn't feel like they needed to forget their like native
language, and encouraging you to still use that, and not have to wash it away. And I don't know,
like the best way to do this of like, teaching people to be inclusive, or it gets so hard to say, like,
how people should do it. But I just wish that it was more of an inclusive environment for me and
for my brothers in school.
RA
Because there was no, it was just like this mystical thing that nobody wanted to touch on. And I
think that would have made a really big difference if, you know, if there was enough resources
and enough time for teachers or for them to bring people in just to educate everybody... that- I
think that would make such a big difference. to not make people feel "othered" it or make them
feel like they don't fit in. And I think even now it's so important...
Like, I guess in the cities to it's easier to say like you get a lot of people from different
backgrounds, I guess in certain schools, but it's like more in your face than it is like in the
suburban area. And some suburban areas. I just wish that it was like, I just wish they thought
more about what they were doing. Because it really does like impact your life. Yeah. But how
did they know? I don't know. How would they know to do that when there's such a small
population? Part of me is like, I can't blame them. Then another part is like, why was that
teacher saying that stuff? You know... yeah.
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
Well, hopefully, your story being added to the Minnesota Muslim stories that we're gathering is
at least a step in the right direction.
RA
Yeah, absolutely.
RT
Thank you for sharing.
RA
Yeah, my pleasure.
RT
Excited to add this to the collection.
RA
Thanks.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good afternoon my name is Esteban Perez. It is Friday, April 19th, 2019. I am the oral
historian for this project. We are here at Augsburg University for an oral history interview with
Reies Romero. Reies, if you can introduce yourself to the recording giv... Show more
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good afternoon my name is Esteban Perez. It is Friday, April 19th, 2019. I am the oral
historian for this project. We are here at Augsburg University for an oral history interview with
Reies Romero. Reies, if you can introduce yourself to the recording giving your full name and
when and where you were born.
Reies Romero 0:19
Peace. This is Reies Francisco Romero, I'm from Albuquerque, New Mexico. I was born May
17th, 1976.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:27
All right. Thank you Reies. So you're from New Mexico?
Reies Romero 0:31
I am.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:32
Alright.
Reies Romero 0:32
I am.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:33
Do you usually say, when you introduce yourself your from New Mexico? Or do you say you're
from Minnesota?
Reies Romero 0:37
Um, I think it's, really depends who I'm talking to, but if they ask me, you know "Where were you
originally born?" You know, sometimes that's a question in -Esteban Perez Cortez 0:46
Yeah -Reies Romero 0:46
-- conversation, I always say Albuquerque, New Mexico, so. Part of my heart's there and part of
my heart is here in Minnesota.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:55
I feel it. So what is, what is your background? What do you like, what do you usually say about
like your heritage?
Reies Romero 1:04
My background is New Mexican Chicano. New Mexico has kind of a unique position within the
Latinx diaspora of, of the Western Hemisphere. It's kind of a mix of, you know, indigenous
cultures and Mexican and Anglo, to some extent, Asian. But I mean, there's a unique mixture of
how a New Mexican identifies if that makes sense. New Mexico has a long history, of course, it
was the third to last state admitted into the union. So but, you know, when I usually identify
myself, I would say Chicano.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:54
Chicano?
Reies Romero 1:55
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:56
Okay, right on, um, how impactful was your family's heritage on you, growing up, or even to this
day?
Reies Romero 2:03
Um, very impactful. I mean, my father instilled a lot of valuable principles in me. He's passed
away now, but he was very smart in the areas of history and archaeology. I mean, that's what
he did. He studied archaeology in Guadalajara, Mexico for, for nine years. He would take me all
over New Mexico, looking for little pieces of pottery, you know, and, and, and Indian arrowheads
and, and Turquoise pieces. And, you know, the history of the, the indigenous nations in New
Mexico was very important to, to our family, and, of course, everything that comes along with
that, food, and traditionally, they were Catholics, right. So that was very important to, to my, my
family.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:06
Right on. So when, when did you move to Minnesota?
Reies Romero 3:12
When I was very young, so I was, I was about five years old -Esteban Perez Cortez 3:15
Okay.
Reies Romero 3:16
-- Yeah. So I've been here ever since. It was kind of one of those situations where your mom
and dad got a divorce and so legal custody went to my mother.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:27
Yeah.
Reies Romero 3:27
So she, for the most part raised me. But I would see my dad, you know, very often within, you
know, before, he passed away when I was 20, so I would visit him in the summertime.
Sometimes during holidays, all kinds of stuff. So -Esteban Perez Cortez 3:47
Okay.
Reies Romero 3:47
-- but been here since five. Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:50
Most of your life then?
Reies Romero 3:51
Yeah and I'm 40 almost 43. So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:54
Okay, not too bad. So what does, what does Minnesota mean to you and your family?
Reies Romero 4:02
I mean, it you know, it's basically just me and my mom, but Minnesota is home. I mean
Minnesota is a, another unique state in, in the Union (United States). It holds a lot of qualities, of
course, it's cold as hell, but I mean, I mean, Minnesota is, of course, another territory of
indigenous land. I mean, you have.. a uniqueness here, when regarding, it kind of depends
where you live in Minnesota. Because if you ask somebody that's from the Iron Range, or, or
somewhere else, they're going to have a different experience. So I think we, as Minnesotans
have a lot of the same experiences, but we have to differentiate them depending on where we
live. If your city dweller or you live in rural areas, so but you know, Minnesota is, it'll have my
corazon (heart in Spanish). So New Mexico's the other half. It's kind of weird, you know, apple
pie and enchiladas type thing, you know, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:13
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.
Reies Romero 5:15
I hope not.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:16
Yeah. So what's your, what's your educational background? Where'd you go to school?
Reies Romero 5:23
I went to St. Louis Park High School (Minnesota Suburb), and then, Saint Louis Park Junior
High and then High School. It took me.. it took, I didn't go to college traditionally, right out the
bat out of high school.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:35
Yeah.
Reies Romero 5:35
Okay. I didn't want to, and I, my mother couldn't afford it either. That's for sure. And it took me
until I was like 32 years old to go to college. And when I went to college, when I first went to
college, I went to St. Paul College. Because I just, you know, had recently moved to downtown
St. Paul, so, you know, why, go to MCTC(Minneapolis Community and Technical College)? Why
go to Ramsey Tech? Or, you know, Normandale (Normandale Community College), whatever -Esteban Perez Cortez 6:09
They're farther.
Reies Romero 6:09
-- Yeah, yeah, I mean, pick something that's close, right? So, going to St. Paul College, I really
didn't know what I wanted to be. I was like, man, you know, what am I doing here? It was really
kind of like the free money aspect of it, man they give you free money. So when you, but I, when
I got to St. Paul College, I understood, because all through my 20's I just lived off DJing and and
other extracurricular activities and some odd jobs here and there, but.. when I got to St. Paul
College, it kind of brought out a new era in myself. I found out that, wow, this is, you know, you
know, people are really becoming something through this collegiate experience. And I dove right
in with my, with no lifejacket, basically, so to speak, and try to do everything that I could on
campus. So whether that was student government or student organizations or joining this
committee or student ambassador, I mean, you name it, I did everything in the book practically
for St. Paul College. When I graduated St. Paul College, 2013, I took that same mentality, and I
brought it to Augsburg. I came to Augsburg and I took advantage of all the resources that I
could, here, you know, what I mean? You know, from the MSA (Muslim Student Association) to
ALAS (Augsburg Latin American Students) to starting my own organization Save The Kids,
Student Government, I mean, you name it, I jumped right in here. So, and I be, and I came here
studying to be a social worker and that's what I currently am, as a school social worker. So at
St. Paul College, I didn't actually know, even when I graduated, you know, there was this one
guy who came to the table there. I forgot the brothers name. He said, "You know, you should
come over and check out the social work program" I was like alright. So I did and, and one thing
led to another and that's what I decided to do with my career, with my life. So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:11
When did you graduate from Augsburg?
Reies Romero 6:32
2016.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:03
2016?
Reies Romero 7:37
Yeah man.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:38
Alright, nice. You've been working as a social worker in St. Paul schools?
Reies Romero 8:22
Yup, for a couple years now. Yeah -Esteban Perez Cortez 8:24
You like it?
Reies Romero 8:24
-- It took me, yeah, I love it, actually. I love that I made this decision. I love being a social
worker. Most social workers are not me, though. They're, they're, they're usually middle age,
heterosexual, white women, you know? It's rarely that you have social workers that are male,
Chicano, Muslim, hip hop heads, you know all in one. I mean, it's, it's really, rare. Even in my
graduating class, it was only four, four males, right here at Augsburg out of you know, 28 of us
or something like that, so. Changing that narrative on what a social worker is, know what I'm
saying? -Esteban Perez Cortez 9:11
What they can be.
Reies Romero 9:11
-- Yeah, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:15
So now we're going to be diving into a little bit more of the educator aspect of this -Reies Romero 9:20
Sure, let’s do it.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:21
-- So how do you, how would you define an education?
Reies Romero 9:25
Education, in the context of this country, should empower the learner. Empowerment. It's not
just a series of.. facts and historical references or knowledge that is not beneficial to the receiver
of that education. That's what we have to move forward, is empowerment, and equality.
Diversity doesn't mean equality right? Learning about Martin on one day, and all the president's
every other day, not necessarily empowering the learner, especially if you're a person of color,
right? So education is key to understanding you know, the knowledge of self. The knowledge of
others, the knowledge of who is against you, and who's not. Right? Who can you, who is your
allies, and, and it's instilled in the, in the psyche of, of students from grade school, right? We
have this, we have a Eurocentric point of education system here in America, or what is called
America, that, can be brainwashed into your psyche, right? Through the false ideology of white
supremacy, so. You have to, you know, really differentiate between what is beneficial for you
and not, I think that's, you know, the real purpose of education. You know, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:16
How would you, how would you define an educator then?
Reies Romero 11:19
Right. So an educator's someone that's truthful, that thinks outside the box that doesn't
necessarily follow textbooks that, that, that looks to, like I said that, that, that empowerment
piece, that looks to empower their students with knowledge that they can apply, that's
applicable, right? Knowledge, that you can't apply does really no good. The same concept in
Islam, too. And we'll probably get to that. But knowledge that is not applied is no good. How can
one use what the educator is giving them? How are they processing the information is the
educator, individualizing students understanding specific experiences, due to their cultural
background, their linguistic ability, all, everything should be, educators and teachers are the
heroes of the world, if they do it, right. But if they're damaging, more than hurt, you know, more
than helping, it's worse, right? Where they're just following a curriculum that was made by who
knows, right? So educators, you know, all the teachers, the teachers, at my school were white,
practically, right? White women, you know, what the hell do they know about the struggles of
African-Americans and, and Mexicans and immigrants and people from Southeast Asia? And,
and the Somali experience? I mean, they may eat Somali food, but they don't live this is
experience, right? So, educators have to, you know, really get their duckets in line.
Esteban Perez Cortez 13:09
Yeah, for sure thank you for that. Um, do you see yourself as an educator?
Reies Romero 13:14
I do, because I, you know, along with the principles of social work, right, so, social work, is
guided by principles, right, and ethics. One of those ethics is Social Justice , I'm always
advocating for social justice, you know, the, the, the right to be, you know, of the destiny of a
person, you gotta respect that, their right to determination of their, of their future, right? The
importance of human relationships as another social work as a piece, but I do consider myself
educator, because I teach hip hop history, right? And I'm always re-reading things, re-examining
things, re-understanding, re-talking to people that I get information from if like it's quotes, or
understand because along with hip hop teaching, you can get some false information in there
that someone, you know, made up, right? So you have to be very careful about where you get
your history lessons from. And you got to be kind of have to re-establish the truth all the time,
right? So and that, so with everything. I mean, you look back at, at historical references, how,
what is the validity of this, of your information that you're teaching others? I think that's very
important. You know, as an educator myself, especially when you're teaching hip hop history,
right? You don't want to just make stuff up, right? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:00
It's just me absorbing a lot of this, don't worry. I kind of forgot to go over this at the beginning -Reies Romero 15:06
Oh, oh my god.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:07
-- But so, you're Muslim, correct?
Reies Romero 15:09
Yes.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:10
Um, when, I think before you mentioned you're a convert or revert -Reies Romero 15:15
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:16
-- when did, when did that happened?
Reies Romero 15:19
It happened in November 2006.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:21
November 2006?
Reies Romero 15:22
Yep.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:22
Okay,
Reies Romero 15:23
So I don't know what is it, 2019 now? So, yep. I reverted to Islam in 2006. That's when I started
my journey as a Muslim.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:33
Do you usually prefer revert over convert?
Reies Romero 15:37
I, I don't care. I mean, it's not a big deal. Convert, revert you know -Esteban Perez Cortez 15:44
I've heard both being used and sometimes people would say like, I'm a revert or some would
say you know, I'm a convert. So -Reies Romero 15:50
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:51
-- thought I would ask before I said like you know anything.
Reies Romero 15:53
I don't make a big deal about small linguistic stuff, though.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:56
Do some people with terms like that? Sometimes?
Reies Romero 15:59
I guess I mean, you know? It, when you're using the revert term, it just really means reverting
back to your original state, of you know that, we were all created to worship the Creator. And
that's your original state. So you re, go back to that state, you know, when you accept Islam,
right, but convert or revert. Don't get hung up on the small things.
Esteban Perez Cortez 16:29
Yeah, interchangeable.
Reies Romero 16:31
Yeah. Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 16:32
Ok um, has your, has your religion changed your lifestyle?
Reies Romero 16:39
Oh, yeah. I mean, Islam is a lifestyle. It's not something that you do when you want to do it -Esteban Perez Cortez 16:45
Yeah.
Reies Romero 16:45
-- it's not something that, you just do on certain days, when you feel like it. There's set daily
duties. There's set daily rituals. You can't, it's 24/7, 365. There's no like, taking a break. Right?
Islam encompasses every aspect of your life. Of one's life if you, if you're a Muslim, and you're
actually observing the religion of Islam, or in Islam is called the "deen" (din) and deen translates
to religion in English, but it really means a way of life, right? So it's always at the forefront of my
lifestyle. Because you know, you really kind of shape your life, kind of around your prayers. And,
you know, your job has part of that, but you always got to figure out and you know, how you're
going to practice Islam in your specific environment and your experience. Does that make
sense? -Esteban Perez Cortez 17:55
Yeah.
Reies Romero 17:56
-- Yeah, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 18:01
Was, before you converted, was Islam present in your life a lot like either in the friends you had,
or schools, you went to, anything like that? How prevalent was it?
Reies Romero 18:15
It was very prevalent, because that's how, well hip hop brought me to Islam. I'm going to say
that honestly, the first references I ever heard about Allah (God), or Muhammad or Islam, was
through rap music. It wasn't like through like, talking to the Arab store owner, or whatever it may
be, right? So the first time I ever heard the word Allah was in a song by Rakim, 1986. I was like,
who is Allah, right? "All praise is due to Allah and that's a blessing." He said in, in a verse in one
of the song.s I was like, what what, who was he talking about? So that sparked some kind of
interest. Reading auto, the autobiography of Malcolm X, is another big influence. Growing up, I
had Muslim friends you know, more so in high school, that were Muslim, but they were also
gang members too. They're also Vice Lords, you know, and Vice Lords tend t,o tend to lean
towards, you know, a version of Islam that they kind of created that kind of came from the
Nation of Islam and kind of remixed it all up, right? Most references that you hear from hip hop
music, refers to the Nation of Islam (NOI), or the Five Percent Nation, Nation of Gods and
Earths, you know, those type of things. Because the Nation of Gods and Earths been there,
since the inception of hip hop, they did security for Kool Herc, so. Hearing those type of
references, you start to wonder what this is, right? Especially as a little kid, right? Listening to
rap music at 10 years old, 1986, right? I mean, I was, really got into hip hop since 83' (1983),
and up 83'-84', I mean just dived in, as a B-Boy (Break Boy), so. You know the era that, you
know, first hip hop was about partying, and having a good time. But then, somewhere along the
line, they became conscious, where you started to have MC's (Master of Ceremonies) talk about
real struggles and knowledge and, you know, lifestyles, so. And that's kind of that,, that brought
a whole lot of people that I know, that became Muslim, to Islam, is through rap, that's through
hip hop. So that's how it started for me. And, you know, I could brothers, Zubair and Musa and,
and (Unknown) and all kinds of brothers that I grew up with, that did hip hop too, they were
rappers, graffiti artists, breakers, something. DJ's had something to do with hip hop, but also
were Muslim, right? So, some came from the Nation (NOI), some went straight into what is
known as traditional Islam or Muslims that follow the Sunnah so, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 21:24
Are you, are you more of an educator or it can be both are you more, more of an educator in like
the hip hop community or in your, through the St. Paul Public schools, or is it equal with both?
Or what would you say?
Reies Romero 21:36
You know, when I joined Freedom School last year, you know, Freedom School's, is partly
funded by St. Paul Pubilc schools and the Children Defense Fund. So under that banner, you
would be an educator under SPPS (St. Paul Public Schools). But in the hip hop community, I'm
well equipped to teach, all kinds of things. History of DJ'ing, History of Hip Hop, History of
B-Boying and, you know. Know Your Rights training, because really, the elements of hip hop
are, are five there's actually around about 10 elements, but the five core elements, DJ'ing,
B-Boying, MC'ing, Graffiti and knowledge is the fifth element. Alright, so that's about education.
That's about knowing, knowing the ledge, get it? "Know-the-ledge", the "know-ledge". right? So
I'm always educating myself, getting educated myself by others, and then passing that
knowledge on. We're all educators in some capacity, right? But, formal classrooms, this can
happen in or it can happen non-traditional environments. Learning outside, learning in, learning
in the studio, you know, all kinds of things like that, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 21:42
Um, let's see. Was your expertise ever criticized for being a convert slash revert at all?
Reies Romero 23:10
What do you mean? Like?
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:14
I don't know if this, like if this could have happened or if it didn't happen for like, if you're
educating somebody about something in Islam -Reies Romero 23:23
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:24
-- And then they knew like you just you just recently converted, was that ever challenged like oh
you know -Reies Romero 23:29
Oh yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:30
-- you're wrong.
Reies Romero 23:30
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:32
Yeah?
Reies Romero 23:32
Like this, cause like, it really just happens, it happens in Minnesota, mostly with Arabs and
Somalis. Where you know, the old Somali saying "Oh, my uncle's a sheikh." you know, and or,
or what does a you know, what does a Mexican revert know about Islam, right? So, that, that
has always that happened a lot. But you have to learn too like, Islam is based off of knowledge,
I mean, is a knowledge based religion, right? And it's, it's rooted in proofs, and what is called
(Arabic) right, and proofs. You have to have proof of the rituals of Islam, the practices, what
you're doing, who is Allah, what is the historic, you know, all these things, but yeah, that does
happen. As a revert, you get all that BS, man that "you don't know nothing." You don't get
returned Salaam's. People look at you crazy. That comes with the territory. I mean, that's, that
happens now. Like me as an Islamic resource group official speaker, when I show up to like
community education speakings where I'm going to do Islam 102, 101, you know, "everything
you know, like to know about Islam and Muslims.". I go to, you know, usually it's some kind of
librarian or someone, they're leading the community education, they say "Oh, are you here for
the, for the class?" I go "No, I'm the speaker" you know? And they look at me up and down,
because I don't, in the psyche of American, you know, I should have a turban on my head, I
should have a big long beard, I should have a big long white thobe or something like that. It's
flabbergasting to them that I show up as the speaker, does that make sense? With the way I
look and, you know, and the way I dress, it's just like, they can't believe it. But there's difference
between challenging someone and then kind of like insulting them, like if you if you really want
to help someone like a revert, it happens, like even now 13 years later, like if I go into a Masjid
(Mosque), and for instance, after, its after Asr, right, which is the afternoon prayer, according to
Hanafi Fiqh which is the Fiqh that I follow, there's no prayer after Asr until the sundown prayer.
Okay, so some old guy might say, you know, "You sat down brother before you made two
Rakats of Salat" you know and "You're supposed to pray before you sit down." you know,
something like that or they want to play footsie with me and and in, in the in the prayer rows,
"You have to touch your feet." and you know, just all kinds of things happen as a revert. Like,
just yesterday I was speaking out at Masjid Hamza on Prior Lake of all places, Prior Lake,
Minnesota. And it's like a mini road trip. Right? They have a Masjid out there. And a small
Muslim community. Nice Mosque. It was a it was a church two years ago though, it went from a
church to a Masjid. And we spoke to 60 students, me and another sister from (Unknown) about
Islam and Muslims. It was but you know, some of the the high school, they were high school
students, and they were like, what, you know, what is this guy? You know, this dude. So being
challenged happens all the time as a revert. It does. Right. So, I hope that answers your
question.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:27
Yeah. Not like completely fishing for answers, so it can always be a short one so don't worry. So
I was looking at before this interview was looking at some criticisms based off some studies
about like Muslim students in school -Reies Romero 27:42
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:43
-- There wasn't too many for here in Minnesota. Because what I'm seeing there, there's like a
lack thereof of Islam, I mean, Muslims in Minnesota -Reies Romero 27:51
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:52
-- So thus far. But some, there were some studies, you had, like Toronto, Belgium, the UK,
about like Muslim students -Reies Romero 28:01
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:02
-- So some of the criticisms in like, the schools, you have like missing Friday prayer. Because
the teachers would always say "Oh, you know, you can't keep missing Friday, for Friday prayer,
because you're going to keep missing the same subject, you're going to keep falling behind in
that subject, you're gonna fail the test." you know? So sometimes they'd be like, they'd be the
parents, not the parents, the teachers would make a big deal that he -Reies Romero 28:25
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:25
-- tells the parents about you know, your, your student can't miss this because they keep
missing it every Friday -Reies Romero 28:32
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:32
-- But they're like, no, it's a religious thing. And a lot of the time, there's, I don't think they're
really, really willing to accommodate or they don't know how to they like, just, you know, what,
what else should we do here? Another one of the issues was like mixed athletics, you had like
swimming. And then sex education was like a big one -Reies Romero 28:51
Yeah I know, I heard that one yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:52
-- So just kind of just wanted to see, have you had any, as an educator, have you had some
exposure to kind of these issues either? In anything?
Reies Romero 29:04
So, I'm glad you asked this, because this, I was on a panel recently, I think it was a week and a
half ago, or something at the, Challenging Islamophobia conference at Metro State put on by
CAIR (Council of American-Islamic Relations) okay? And we had a panel of educators, you
know, the, the topic was "How to support Muslim students in educational system", right? So I'm
not going to speak on like, Belgium, and all the other places and stuff cause, I don't have that
experience, so. You know, when you're working with Muslim students, especially when you're in
the elementary level, which which I am K-5 (Kindergarten through 5th Grade), things like, so we
got Ramadan coming up, right? So you want to share some resources with the teachers about
what Ramadan is, right? The teachers might, you know, have their, whatever they think it is,
right? But it's good to clarify things because you don't want people that are not Muslim and
educators assuming things about Islam and Muslims, when they don't have any clarification. It's
very important, we got to take back our own narrative as Muslims, so. We, you know, I brought
up some of the, you know, fourth and fifth graders are intending to fast as best they can, even
though they're not even actually required to fast. So the requirements of fasting is puberty for
boys and menstrual cycle for girls. The fifth graders, maybe there might be someone a girl, and
that might have menstrual cycle or a boy that's reaching puberty pretty early, right? But it usually
happens when they get the junior high. So, and they want to pray too, they may not even know
how to pray, but they want to do the motions, they want to do what they can. We have to
support that. We have to understand, you can't separate Islam from the person for eight hours a
day at school. "I'm gonna go to school and I'm not going to be Muslim.", No, it doesn't work like
that fam (Family). You gotta you have to, you know, support the students in what they need and
their specific ability on what they know and according to the level of faith that they have. Does
that make sense? Because you'll have sometimes born Muslims have no idea what they're
talking about. Right? But when you get to junior high and high school, it becomes a little more
complicated and how to support Muslim students. That's what we're talking about, right? Yeah.
So when you, when you reach those ages, where, where it's obligatory for you to pray, it's
mandatory for you to pray, then it really depends on the specific person's relationship with God.
With Allah, right? Are they going to observe their prayers? Are they not? Is it too embarrassing?
Is it too, is it, it's not cool, right? To pray. You'll be made fun of. You don't want to be looked at
as the Other and things like that. I mean, there's tremendous pressure, being a Muslim in the
educational system in America, right? Especially if you're black man, especially if you're, you
know, a person of color. You know, you're already -- I remember this one brother, who
converted to Islam, he was an African American. And he went home and he told his mom, he
was a speaker, I can't, I can't remember where I saw him speak. But anyways, he said, Mom, I,
you know, converted to Islam. And he was like, and she was like, "Son, you're black already.
Don't you think you have it bad enough?" You know, you know, so like. You know, here in
Minnesota, we want to do everything we can to support our Muslim students. So in their journey
with their relationship with the Creator, you know. They can't just stop being Muslim when they
go to school, right. That hijab don't come off. I mean, it comes off, but I'm saying, you know what
I mean? They can't just take it off, you know, like, a light switch on and off, so. So doing, you
know, small things, to educate the teachers, right? And the, and the staff. The teachers aren't
the only people in the child's life. Nutritionists are in their, janitors, gym teachers, science
teachers, you know. Understanding specific experiences with Muslim students and supporting
that. It's gonna, it's a journey. Because, you know, we have this separation of church and state,
right? Can't celebrate this, you can't do that, can't wear crosses, can't wear Yamakas, can't do,
you know. It depends on, from district to district what they are allow and school to school.
So it's complex -Esteban Perez Cortez 30:05
Okay.
Reies Romero 33:52
-- I hope that made sense.
Esteban Perez Cortez 34:07
Yeah, no. That definitely does, does make sense. Have you had students either in K through
five (K-5) or even like the hip hop community come up to you, due to issues of racism, and
Islamophobia in the school setting? Or personal lives?
Reies Romero 34:26
Yes, and no. And it doesn't really so happen -- Oh, man, there was a, conversation the other
day at lunch. You know, there was, I think four or five Muslim students, two Latino students,
Latinas were there. They were kind of having inter-religious conversations. But they're just, you
know, they're just kids, man, it doesn't get too complex with them, right? Where, even the
Muslim kid, right, said "Jesus is bad!". And I looked at him and I was like "Brother, where, you
know, where are you getting this from? Jesus is a prophet in Islam.". I'm thinking that's right, I'm
not telling I'm just kind of smiling at them. Like, oh, okay. You know, because they don't, they
don't know, at that point, you know, the inner workings in, and that the belief in Jesus is, is a
mandatory belief in Islam. If you don't believe in Prophet Jesus, that brings you out of the fold of
Islam, right? So, you know, this notion, you know, that little, students have, you know, K through
five, they're just going off kind of, what they've learned at home, or what they perceive as Islam,
things like that. You get older, you start to get more wisdom and integrity. And Islamophobia is
real, bro. It's a, it's a demonic machine that's fully funded by all kinds of people that'll want to
demonize Islam and Muslims. It's completely real. All right, look at, do the research on this
industry, because it is an industry, it's a business. And it's, it's funded by hundreds of millions of
dollars, okay. Instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars on educating people, it's been
spent on demonizing people, alright? And, and whole belief systems, right, that has a 1.7 billion
adherence, like somehow they're all wrong, right? So, um, Islamophobia is something that's
damaging to not only Muslims, but everyone around us, right? Everyone here in Minnesota, in
this country, Western Hemisphere, don't matter where it is, right? I mean, you're not going to get
Islamophobia too much in Muslim countries, right? Because everyone Muslim, right? So, but it is
a serious threat to our safety here as Muslims, especially the sisters, because they're the crown
jewel of Islam, right? They are the number one sym, the hijab is the number one recognizable
symbol in Islam in the world, right? So, there's all, I mean, if you contact people like CAIR, and
who, who reports Islamophobia incidents, and it's, it could be harassing, it could be name
calling, you know. Students were being called a terrorist, girls, you know, we got to take those
reports seriously, too. Because it's, you know, the Islamophobia in schools in the form of
bullying, right? And bullying has got to be taken very seriously. So, there was that student who
killed himself, up in Osseo school district somewhere, from being bullied for being a Muslim, bro,
alright. Committed suicide, alright? So these type of things happen and we have to take them
seriously, no matter how small they are, because no matter how small that we got to have
restorative circles and restorative practices and in our school, you know. Suspending the, the,
whoever bullied someone or called someone a terrorist, ain't really going to solve the problem.
You know, why don't you go have lunch with the sister or brother, right? Get to know people.
Bind the hearts together, right. So yeah, I mean, it's very, very real, so. There was, in this, what I
mentioned before, in this Prior Lake visit, they had like four or five Muslim students in their class
that came to the Masjid. Masjid Hamza, so I was like, this is, you know, I didn't know there was
no Muslims out in Prior Lake, Minnesota, right. But do you have pockets of Muslim especially
Somalis in rural areas of Minnesota. Imagine what they go through on a daily basis. On their, on
their psyche. You know, look, stares, comments. God knows what, the city you're more
collected, right? You're more, you're more prone to critical thinking and understanding different
cultures, right? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 39:30
We'll just kind of quickly go over how, how has your or did your cultural identity impact your
religious identity? Or, or I guess the way I want to phrase it is, has your religious identity every
impacted your social identity, either at school or at work?
Reies Romero 39:49
And that's, that's a man, you want to be here for two more hours?
Esteban Perez Cortez 39:51
How about like a quick five minute answer for each?
Reies Romero 39:54
Yeah, I mean, it's, anybody that's been, is Muslim around the world has their own culture,
whether you're African, Asian, Subcontinent, Bosnian, Japanese, they're going to have their
elements of their traditional foods, dress, clothing, language, music, that's not going to like go
anywhere, right? Unless you're, you know, there's like, no monk in Islam either like, we don't just
retreat to hills, and, you know. Islam is something that you have to do with others, right? You
have to you have to be around others for it to work, so. Me being Chicano, me being, you know,
raised by hip hop, raised by street culture, raised by single parent. I make it work. I don't really
think about who thinks if I'm Muslim or not, how good of a Muslim I am, about other people,
right? Especially, you know, if you Somali and you, you know, you look at me crazy, I could care
less, right? Or you're Arab, and you, and you think you know it all, because, you know. You
think you know what's best about Islam? You know, I don't pay attention to, I'm too old for that
bullshit. So, like, I don't need to prove anything to anyone except myself and the Creator. Does
that makes sense, so. But things will clash, you know, with what is perceived to be, you know,
Mexican culture and Islam, right? Are Mexicans, just people that drink tequila and eat tacos and
smoke marijuana and build houses and work on cars? Are we defined that way? We're not. You
can't actually define Mexicans, right? You can't define Chicano, you can't define us and put us
into some box, right? I love who I am, right. I love being Chicano. I love being from New Mexico.
And I love Islam too. There's, there's nowhere in the world that says that can't happen
simultaneously, right? So I think that's how I'd answer that man, that other people see, may see
clashes, but I don't. And I'm the receiver of this, right. I'm the one that's living this experience.
So who cares what other people think, right? Just do you. Does that make sense? -Esteban Perez Cortez 40:12
Yeah.
Reies Romero 40:13
-- So, you don't, I don't have to prove how Mexican I am to others, to other Mexicans or other
people of Latin diaspora, right? I don't have to prove how Muslim I am to Muslims. I'm kind of in
a unique, very unique situation. Because if you look at how Mexicans were formed, they didn't
exist 500 years ago, in the sense that we are now. We were all indigenous, right? We didn't
have a Spanish colonizer, right? And that mixing of blood between African, Spanish and
indigenous blood, is what created this diaspora we have of, of Latinos, right? Of Mexicans. It's
really, there's no other, there's no other race on earth or group of people that were shaped like
us. Chicanos as Mexicans. If you look there's nothing, nothing like this ever happened anywhere
else in the history of humankind in the world. Okay, this, this mixture is very unique, very unique,
you know what I mean? So, that's how I would answer that. There's no clash within myself, you
know what I'm saying? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 43:57
Yeah, like I said I wasn't fishing for like a long answer. But I mean, we're kind of reaching the
end, the end of the interview from here on --
Reies Romero 44:06
Sure. I appreciate you having me man, I'm glad that you picked me.
Esteban Perez Cortez 44:10
-- No worries. So you know what, what's next for you, now that you kind of, so you graduated
already, just recently. You're working in St. Paul Public Schools -Reies Romero 44:20
Three years ago.
Esteban Perez Cortez 44:20
-- Yeah. What, what's the future looking like for you?
Yeah.
Reies Romero 44:25
Just keep plugging away at my career at social, my social work career, my community activism,
the organizations I'm part of, try to make a difference. Hopefully I can get married here.
Inshallah, that means God willing. I don't know who the heck is going to be listening to this, but,
get married, maybe have a kid, I don't know, there's a lot on my plate. But just keep trying to
keep busy every day. I think that's what keeps me sane, that keeps me grounded. That service
of others, the service of my community, service of betterment of this world that we live in man,
because it's, it's unbalanced. You see what I'm saying? So it's not, we always, evil never sleeps,
so neither can we. Okay --- evil never sleeps. So we, the constant battle for social change and social justice and, ending
oppression is every day, all day. It's not something that we do just at protests, or Facebook
posts, or whatever it may be. It's all around us, right? So we, I that's what I concentrate on man.
How can, you know, what am I doing to better myself in my community? Right? And my
students that I serve, they don't serve me, I serve them, right? That's what a social worker is. I
don't, I can't solve their problems, I gotta be able to facilitate how they can solve their problems
on their own. That's a, that's a social work ethic, right? Like, I don't don't have all the answers,
you do. Right? The person that I serve does. That's the right to self determination, right? And
self empowerment. So, expanding on my career in trying to master this, this social work thing,
right? Become tenured. You know, maybe, I like staying in schools though. I think I'm going to
stay in schools for a while. I think that's where I had the most impact, because there's all kinds
of social workers Esteban, you know. There's clinical, there's the ones that do policy, there's
private practice, there's mental health, there's you know, elderly, social workers, where they,
you know, they do elderly populations and things like that, so. All kinds of social workers, but I
think I fit best in schools. You know what I mean? -Esteban Perez Cortez 46:50
Yeah.
Reies Romero 46:50
-- because it's already F'd up anyway, so you gotta change it, you know, try and change it within
somehow, someway, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 46:59
Okay, for sure. That's, that'll be the end of the interview. Do you have any final thoughts or
comments you'd like to say before we end?
Reies Romero 47:08
No, I just, thanks for having me and it's an honor. I'm glad you're getting out of here -Esteban Perez Cortez 47:14
Yeah.
Reies Romero 47:14
-- And moving on with your life. And I know, you got some great things ahead -Esteban Perez Cortez 47:16
Well it was my pleasure having you.
Reies Romero 47:18
-- and I'll support you, you know I'm saying?
Esteban Perez Cortez 47:21
Thank you.
Reies Romero 47:22
No problem.
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Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal... Show more
This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here.
Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal?
Preenon Huq:
00:13
Um, so my favorite is chicken with rice. It sounds kind of basic,
but it's not just the regular like chicken with rice. Um, I don't
know the actual word for it because it's like a Ban-, a- a dish
from Bangladesh, but basically it's like almost the color of it is
like an orange, golden chicken, and it has sauce. Like a curry on
top of it. And then Porata is, my favorite for breakfast and that
goes with the chicken or you can do rice. But Porata's like a
bread. It's got like a lot of butter in it, inbetween like different
layers, to make it.
Preenon Huq:
00:49
I just cam back from Bangladesh and I had those everyday at
like 6am, which is like, ridiculous amount you know. But thatthat's definitely my favorite meal.
Sydney Baker:
00:57
Who makes it best?
Preenon Huq:
00:59
Um. Well, when I was in Bangladesh, like having it fresh, making
everything fresh, um... It's kinda weird when I was in
Bangladesh, they would say like, "Oh we made this dish for
you". But really like, there were servants there. And so those
servants were making the dish, right? And so like people would
say like, "Oh yeah so and so makes it best". But then you like, go
there and yo- they don't cook at all like, it was like their servant
that was making it. So it's not- I thought it was really interesting
that, you're kinda taking credit for it. They're obviously not
making anything.
Preenon Huq:
01:30
Um, my grandma's sister did. She like, put it on a pan and made
it. But when it came to like, rolling the actual dough and
everything, the servant did that. So like, both of them kinda did
do it but, really like, I think the servant does like all the work for
that.
Sydney Baker:
01:46
How often do you go back to Bangladesh?
Preenon Huq:
01:48
Uh, that was the first time going since I was like 2. I'm 22 now
so, you know 20 years and, I wanna go more frequently like,
now that I know what it's like, um... What kinda culture there is
and I wish I got to see more of like, how much it's changed and
developed over the last couple years, just because it's been so
dramatic, the changes. Like, my grandma was saying that when
she was growing up, poor people didn't even have clothes. Now
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you see them with cell phones and they're fully clothed and
everything. Like their whole life has changed, so much.
Sydney Baker:
02:19
Who do you stay with when you go?
Preenon Huq:
02:21
Um, because it was my first time going, but we stayed with my
grandma's sister. They live there half the year and then they live
in the US half the year.
Sydney Baker:
02:30
Very nice. Where did you go to high school?
Preenon Huq:
02:32
I went to Armstrong High School.
Sydney Baker:
02:34
Okay, uh what was your favorite subject and why?
Preenon Huq:
02:38
Oh, well, that's kind of a tough one I mean gym class is the best
like, but, in terms of actual subjects... I really liked economics,
um just because it's something that's always interested me. Like
paying attention to like how much the world is connected
financially, that's also something I've always been into when I
was a kid, is finances. But, yeah that was definitely my favorite
class. It wasn't necessarily the class I did the best in, but it
would- definitely was my favorite class.
Sydney Baker:
03:09
Uh, did you have any favorite teachers and what kind of an
impact did they have on you?
Preenon Huq:
03:13
Um, yeah there is this one teacher um, her name was Kaya
Peters. Now she's Kaya Herd. But she, was adopted and I think
originally she was from Korea, if I remember. But basically she
was my favorite just 'cause she really like, understood the
students and related to them a lot, which I appreciated a lot.
Preenon Huq:
03:36
Um, there's a teacher there, James Redelsheimer, after I
graduated me and him connected very well. A lot of us- me and
him have both like the same drive, we have a lot of the same
things in common and that's just something um, we just kind of
realized after um, I graduated. And so we have a really strong
relationship right now. Um, and I talk to him on- frequently on a
regular basis. I go back to his class and talk about like personal
finance, like how to pay off your student loans, those kinda
things.
Preenon Huq:
04:04
Um, that's something that I was successful in doing and so it's
really like, my way of giving back, to the community. And
especially like, it's nice being like a person of color to be able to
go into the classrooms and tell students like "Yes, you can go to
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college, and yes it is- you are able to work and be able to pay it
off. Not necessarily the case for everybody but like, based on
your situation you know... take advantage of what- what's given
to you".
Sydney Baker:
04:29
Were there a lot of people of color at your school?
Preenon Huq:
04:31
No. Um, there's definitely more now, like, every time I go back I
see more students of color. Um, there was students of color,
not to say that there wasn't any, there was. But, I wouldn't say
that they necessarily mixed a lot. Um, and then you always saw
like... sorry.
Sydney Baker:
04:50
That's okay.
Preenon Huq:
04:51
The students that are like coke you know and just- (laughing).
Um, but you always like see like, you know, students of color
were like, usually in the regular classes, where like you know, all
the white students were and AP classes. And I just- that was just
like something that I didn't really like you know, 'cause it just
felt like a different type of segregation.
Sydney Baker:
05:13
Mmm (affirmative).
Preenon Huq:
05:14
Um, and you know I just- it doesn't- like they would say like, "Oh
well these students are doing this and stuff in class", but like, I
mean I would say that were all like, you know the same, we all
have the capabilities and stuff so why, or what did those
students have that the other students of color didn't have?
Sydney Baker:
05:32
What was your friend group like?
Preenon Huq:
05:34
Uh, mainly white. Um, most of my friends are white, um. Like I
was- I remember one kid in like seventh grade said like, he slept
over at one of our other friends who's black, house and he was
like "that was the first time I ever slept over at somebody who's
black's house". Like, just kinda different I thought that was likethat- that stuck with me my whole life. You know, hearing that,
um... but all my friends, um, majority of them are white. I do
have a lot of friends that- of, um, that are- like of color. But
usually they're more in like the Bangalian community, or I, hang
out with them in like, different crowds and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
06:11
Um, I would say I was probably one of the most well-connected
students like, at my college. Sorry, my high school. And, so a lot
of people like- and maybe it helped too because I was a person
of color that they can connect well with me, but then also I hang
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out with a lot of students that are white. But it's not something
that I really thought about really. Like it honestly, like- I didn't
think about it much until I got to like college, then that's really
when I realized like wow you know my- my friend group was all
white people, you know, it's a whole different- it's a whole
different friend group and it's so different talking to them and
like what you can and what you can't talk about as well.
Sydney Baker:
06:49
And why was that, what was it about college that changed
things for you?
Preenon Huq:
06:51
Well, most of like my friends um, were, um, of asian
background. A lot of them were Hmong. Um, a lot of them came
from different groups and um, and also the schools that they
came from. A lot of them came from like intercity like, St. Paul,
North Minneapolis where it's dominated by um, people of color
or it's- there's more of a mix.
Preenon Huq:
07:14
First there's like, where I'm from the suburbs even like, another
school in our district was Cooper. That one had more students
of color and you would hear like, about how different it was.
Um, based on like that, where like a- at the same thing, lot of
the IB kids were students that where white, but the regular
classes were a lot of students of color. And so, that's wherethat's where the difference really comes and you know, just
hearing everybody's story and like, they're just so used to
having everybody and a lot of them actually had really different
opinions and situations with people who are white.
Preenon Huq:
07:49
Where I had the complete opposite, you know. And even like
my friends who were of color, they didn't really talk about the
things about like, you know, oppression, racism, segregation. I
mean you hear it every now and then but you just really didn't
feel it until I got to college an then everybody's talking about it,
and then you realize like wow, okay, now I see. I'm more open
and aware of every- all of that.
Sydney Baker:
08:15
Mm-hmm (Affirmative). Did you ever have your friends over, to
your house in high school?
Preenon Huq:
08:18
Yeah, but not- not often. You know, my m- my mom was like,
she didn't really like having friends over. Not like that- it was
because of like, that they're white or anything like that, they
just- she just preferred not to. So usually I would like, go to their
houses.
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Sydney Baker:
08:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were some of their reactions
when they would come over for the first time?
Preenon Huq:
08:37
Um. I think a lot of them, were just- like it was different, my- my
house smells different, you know. The food smells different so, I
think that was pretty surprising. Also like, just like the artwork in
my house, like I was showing you, my mom's got like a lot of art
um, my mom's like an artist and so she's got like a lot of
paintings and um, just like her taste too is- is very different
from, it's not quite the same as like when you open up a
magazine and you're look- you're like looking and what's trends
are in 2018, 2019. It's very unique to her personality and if you
go in to a lot of people who are like also muslim like, people
who are Arab, um Somale, African, and then people from Asia,
like a lot of their houses will look similar to our house.
Sydney Baker:
09:21
Did you have any muslim friends?
Preenon Huq:
09:23
Um. Honestly, at college, or I mean at high school no I don't
think so. I have like- trying to think maybe one or two. But not
really. I mean every now and then I would see like another
student at my high school at the mosque and then I'd be like,
"Oh okay As-Salam-u-Alaikum" like I didn't even know that
they're family was muslim. So that was kinda cool but in terms
of like, talking about being muslim and stuff, no. I definitely did
not have that.
Sydney Baker:
09:55
Was that a conversation that you would have with people when
you first met them?
Preenon Huq:
09:58
Uh, no (laughing). That's definitely not something you just bring
up. Now that I'm like older yes for sure, like it's so much easier
to talk about it and stuff. But after like post 9/11 like that's
definitely something you did not wanna talk about. Students
that- they don't really know what's going on or what they arethey've affiliated Islam with terrorism and you just don't wanna
like, bring that up in those situations and stuff. Which is
unfortunate right? Like I mean, nobody should have to go
through that and, everybody should be able to express their
religion freely. So that- that's kinda disappointing you know I
wish that- that's something that I was able to do is, you know,
talk about my cultures and talk about like um, my religion and
be kinda more proud of like the religion that I am. I think that,
you know, 9/11 really robbed me personally of that um, from
like, from- when I was growing up.
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Sydney Baker:
10:47
Did you ever have any like specific bad experiences in high
school, when people found out that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
10:53
Um, I mean like, every- I mean people have kinda joked about
like terrorism and- and Islam and stuff and like that you just
kinda like have to tell them like, "Oh you know that's- that's
unacceptable" or you know like, "Hey it's not like that" you
know. And that's hard because, you know, I think that they
realize it but then you know, at the same time they've known
you for a while so then they think it's okay. Most of the time
that I've ever had that conversation, I mean I had that
conversation a couple years ago with somebody that I was really
close with, and you know, they apologized and they were sorry,
you know. They- they didn't realize you know.
Preenon Huq:
11:31
I think that a lot of people well they're- they're kinda stuck in
their ways right? And so I always give the benefit of the doubt
at first. I'm usually a person, I'll let like one slide. But then I
kinda let you know and if I- if you do it again then it's kinda like,
okay were-were this isn't gonna work for me. And um, I'm sorry
but this is you know like- if you're not gonna respect my views
and who I am as a person and also my religion, and that's
something that's like just- you can't really- you shouldn't be
joking about and if you don't understand that after one person
tells you, especially somebody so close to you, I think that it's
best if were not together you know.
Sydney Baker:
12:06
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Preenon Huq:
12:08
Like, I- I mean, that's kinda one thing about me is that,
especially growing up in like a white neighborhood, you have toyou have to like educate people and you have to give them the
benefit of the doubt. And, that's something that a lot of people
don't wanna do and I understand why they don't want to. You
know they've had, um, so many situations where white people
have gotten away with a lot of things. And I totally agree with
that, but then at the same time it's like, I live in this
neighborhood, I grew up with these people, I know this is thethis is the life that I'm gonna be living. And so, it's best you
know, if I give them the opportunity to learn and grow,
especially young people you know.
Preenon Huq:
12:46
Like, some people they have no idea what they're talking about
you know, they're- they're saying things just because they hear
it from the news or somewhere else. Kids and stuff and so then I
educate them and I've had mainly positive reactions towards
everybody, especially parents too. They're always wanting to
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learn more about my culture and my family. Which I like a lot
and I appreciate that a lot. And it's nice because you know, in
the future, um, they will have a positive- hopefully they'll have a
positive experience with other people from my community and
my culture as well.
Preenon Huq:
13:19
But that's also like a lot of pressure right? You know that'sthat's a lot of weight on your shoulders, you're representing
your own community, 24/7 and you're the only person. And
that's so hard because people ask me like, "What do you think
about Islam and what do you think about you know, this and
what does your family do and that", and I'm just like, "My
family's not that religious", I shouldn't be the one representing
all of Islam for this whole community in Plymouth. And, that's
one thing that I've- I've found, you know, really difficult because
sure I wanna learn more about Islam and I wanna learn and be
able to- to share that with others. But at the same time like, I'mI'm not an expert. I probably will never be an expert so I'm not
the person that they should be asking. And that's- and I was
telling Esteban last week, that you know, everybody in Islam,
you could- somebody who practices, um Islam that's S-SSomali, and then somebody who's from Bangladesh, I mean
there could be completely different in terms of their religion.
Sydney Baker:
14:17
And so you said that your family is pretty non-traditional?
Preenon Huq:
14:22
Yeah, were non-traditional. I would say- I mean, my- our family
um, you know, we- we don't pray five times a day, uh, we
definitely celebrate Eid which is twice a year, once at the end of
Ramadan, my family fasts for Ramadan. We do all of those
things. In terms of- I think that's like kind of the big one. My
mom doesn't wear a hijab or anything, um so that's- that's you
know, that kinda gives you an idea of what our family is like.
Sydney Baker:
14:52
Do you think that they moved to this community because
they're non-traditional or do you think that they're nontraditional because they moved here?
Preenon Huq:
14:59
Uh, no, um. I think moving to the US has like made us nontraditional or a little bit more. I don't think my parents really- uh
maybe my mom did, but I really don't think that neither of them
really grew up in that traditional uh, very strict Islamic um,
religion. And I think that makes a huge difference and then also
like living in this community, I wouldn't say that, that's made
much of a difference, because I see all the other uh, Bangali kids
and their families also grew up also in white neighborhoods. It's
actually very common for all the Bangali kids to live in suburban
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white neighborhoods like all of us growing up we all lived in
similar neighborhoods. Um, which is really interesting as well.
Sydney Baker:
15:43
Why is that?
Preenon Huq:
15:44
I think a school, you know education's number one, super
important. Um, my dad- originally we lived in Crystal, my sister
went to New Hope Elementary and uh, one of the students
called the teacher a really bad name and my sister went home
and told my dad what happened and he like moved her out of
that school, and put her in private school. So she- she actually
went to a Christian school, a Catholic school. I went to a catholic
school for a year- two years, but I think my sister went for four
and my other sister went for almost six or seven. So- (laughing)
that was a really big change for us you know, going to a catholic
school, private school. Um, and then we eventually moved over
to Plymouth, where the school districts are really well- are
good. So we could go to the public schools.
Sydney Baker:
16:36
What was your experience like at the Catholic school?
Preenon Huq:
16:38
Well you just really don't realize what's like happening right?
Like, I mean I don't really- like I remember getting like, the
cross, um and then we'd have like, the beads. And I don't- I can't
even remember what that was for really, during prayer time.
Um, and then my neighbors across the street, they're really
religious catholic. Um, and I would go over there all the time for
dinner and we'd pray before dinner. And I would just pray the
same way as them. So, just in a way like I felt like- and then, a
lot of my friends, they took me to church growing up. So I felt
like I was so like- almost growing up like Christian in a sense but
obviously not fully growing up with Christian. I just learned a lot
about like um, being Christian from those different situations
that I had in life and events.
Sydney Baker:
17:26
So you used to live in England too?
Preenon Huq:
17:28
Uh, well I like, was born there, moved here when I was like one.
So I've been here my whole life. And then we go back and visit
pretty frequently. Usually try to go once a year um, once every
two years.
Sydney Baker:
17:41
How does it compare to Minnesota?
Preenon Huq:
17:43
Oh, it's so different (laughing). It's just like big city. Kinda like
New York. Public transportation and people are focused on
themselves, moving really fast. Um, so much to do like lots of
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um, fun things. The Isla- Islamic community's huge there. Um,
lots of people who are Indian and Bangladeshi. So that's nice as
well.
Sydney Baker:
18:04
Would you say that it's more diverse there than it is here?
Preenon Huq:
18:07
Absolutely, for sure. Um. If you're comparing like New York to
uh, London, then th- i would say probably New York's kinda momore diverse. But it's hard to say, I mean London is so diverse
these days. It's completely changed over the last, you know, 20
years. And here like, it's- it's gotten a lot better like, my sister
she's nine and I can just tell by the names of all the students
that are in the class, like, how diverse it is you know. It's not like
'John' and- and 'Megan' and 'Marissa' that are in here class like
it's- it's all these different names that are very unique, of all
different backgrounds. And a lot of her friends are from
different backgrounds and we see them like- which I think is so
cool you know. Just 'cause, that definitely wasn't the case when
I was growing up.
Sydney Baker:
18:58
Did you ever bring any of your friends to the mosque with you?
Preenon Huq:
19:02
Uh yeah, I brought a couple of friends here and there. Um, even
one of my co-workers last year, he was about the same age as
me. He actually fasted for Ramadan. So that was really cool and
he was Jewish and so that was really interesting you know
because, obviously with like all like the things that go on it's- it's
crazy that around the world there's so much conflict, and then
you know, in the US like, you s- you see like muslims and Jewish
people you know, fasting together for Ramadan. Just
completely different, you know.
Preenon Huq:
19:31
And, I have brought a couple of friends to the mosque. I've
brought a couple friends like Bengali parties and um, brought
them to events and stuff and they- they enjoyed- it's definitely a
different um- it's something that they would never get, you
know else where like- recently one of my best friends, my room
mate from college came to Bangladesh with me. So that was
pretty amazing I mean, you know, he's a 6'4", white, American
and in a country that the average height is 5'6". And no one,
who's not from there goes and visits that country. So that was
like super cool I mean he stood out like crazy. But he had a great
time.
Sydney Baker:
20:09
Where's home for you?
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Preenon Huq:
20:10
Uh, Minnesota for sure. You know this feels like home. I know
like, Plymouth, Minnesota specifically. Like I know so many
people here, my friends, my family, the community members.
You know, being involved with school makes me even more
connected. Um, this is definitely my home. I- I don't think I ever
go anywhere without seeing somebody I know and I actually
love that you know, it's just nice to always know that there's
somebody there that you know.
Sydney Baker:
20:50
Could you reflect on a time that you may have felt discriminated
against for being muslim?
Preenon Huq:
20:59
Um... definitely like post 9/11. You know like telling kids at
school that I was like muslim you know not knowing like- that
like it was like muslims. But I wouldn't even call them muslims
that- that did the terrorist attack that represented and said that
they were muslims and then like everything with the Iraq war
and stuff. I don't remember like specifically, I just remember
going to school and telling kids like, "Oh yeah, I'm muslim" and
they'd be like, "Are you a terrorist?" You know and just kinda
giving me like- like, "No, no I'm not".
Preenon Huq:
21:35
And it's just hard to understand why they would like, think that
way. Or why they would affiliate those two just because, you
know there's so much terrorism n- not too long ago, with like
KKK members and they represent- they say that they represent
Christianity but nobody says like, "Oh yeah like KKK and
Christiani- or Christians are terrorists". You know, they don't
ever put those two together. So it's hard for me to understand
you know, why are you saying that muslims and terrorism go
together. And you know, that's the thing is that religion doesn't
and terrorism doesn't go together. So, that was really hard
growing up. And then I just stopped telling kids that I was
muslim.
Sydney Baker:
22:16
What are some positive experiences that you had?
Preenon Huq:
22:24
Um. I just think like, I- I don't really know like specifically in the
sense of like, situations where I'm- like the one- two years ago
when my co-worker, wanted to like spend- you know,
participate in Ramadan. That was super big and that was
awesome. I don't really like, blame people from my high school
that didn't participate because I didn't really share that I was
muslim.
Preenon Huq:
22:49
I mean, even my best friend from like, seventh grade I
remember- I think we were like in eleventh grade in the
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summer and I was like, uh- we were trying to find something to
eat and I was like, "Do you got anything?" And he's like, "Yeah
we have pizza rolls", and I was like, "Oh what kinda are they?"
And he's like, "Pepperoni", and I was like "Oh I can't eat those",
and he's like, "You can't even taste the pepperoni- barely you
can taste it", and I was like, "Well I don't eat- I don't eat
pepperoni because I don't like it, it's because I'm muslim and I
can't ". And he was like, "What?". So like, I don't know if he
forgot or if he just didn't know.
Preenon Huq:
23:22
But it was like, you know, a big moment and kind of a shock
because we- and then- and then he remembered you know,
like, "Oh okay". And so, he was like, "Oh I just always thought
you didn't like pepperoni", 'cause he'd always see me like take
the pepperoni off- his parents like ordered Jet's Pizza every two
weeks. And so all the time I was over there, id always like take it
off and stuff. So that's probably why he kinda thought that I just
didn't like it.
Sydney Baker:
23:47
Did his parents know that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
23:49
I don't know honestly I can't- I'm not sure if they did or not.
That's like another thing you know, a lot of like muslims, I mean
like, the- the level of pork is huge and you'll see that like there's
people who will not touch pork. Um, not my boss now but my
previous boss was muslim and he wouldn't touch alcohol. I
mean if he- it doesn't matter if it's a- in the bottle, if it's in the
case, you try to hand him a bottle he will not touch it. Same
thing with pork. When he's at the grocery store he won't you
know, touch it, nothing.
Preenon Huq:
24:17
Uh, then there's people you know like, they open up a pizza,
they'll see it's pork, they'll shut it and they'll be like "Okay, I'm
not having any". And then there's like me, who I'm just like, I
feel like that's gonna go to waste, you know, whoever ordered it
didn't realize that I- you know, didn't ask ahead of time and as
long as it's not like baked into the cheese where like to the
point where I can't get it out, I will always like just take it off,
and eat the pizza. And that's definitely very different from other
people. And I just do that because like, I don't wanna waste it,
you know but if the choice comes, I'll just tell them, like "Oh, no
I- you know, can you order a cheese pizza for me?". And, that's
usually how it goes. And nobody like makes me pay extra or
anything you know, to order my own pizza. I always offer to buy
it you know cos, they have to order a whole 'nother pizza
usually for me.
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Sydney Baker:
25:16
So what do you like more about living in Minnesota, than you
do about living in England? [crosstalk 00:25:22] Or are you just
spending time in England?
Preenon Huq:
25:23
I just like how small it is in- in Minnesota like, no matter where
you are, it's- it's kinda like Augsburg. Like, in versus going to the
[inaudible 00:25:33] you know you can go to the [inaudible
00:25:35] and you can do a lot of stuff and there's a lot of
opportunity and you can make a big change and everything.
But, it's hard to like, get known on campus, it's hard to like,
make a difference, it's hard to like, get the resources that you
want. Um, where like, in Augsburg you know, if you try really
hard, you can become known on campus, you can work with
others. There is- they're smaller but they- they do make a huge
impact and I just feel like that's how Minnesota is versus
London right.
Preenon Huq:
25:58
If I work really hard in Minnesota, I feel like anything is possible.
It's small enough where I can get connected in different
communities. Everybody kinda knows everybody in a sense um,
from their hometown and stuff and that's just not the case in
London. London's way too big. And so like, you can kind of like
the express- the expression is like, you can be like a shark in a
pond or you can be like, you know, a fish in the ocean like- and I
just rather be like, well known and well connected and have
opportunity for myself and others as well and, it's kinda cool
'cause like, anything I put my mind to I feel like, there's a way I
know somebody connected well that I can make an impact in a
small or big community if I want to. Just like it- it's very endless,
the opportunities.
Sydney Baker:
26:45
Do you have family in England?
Preenon Huq:
26:46
Yeah, like all my dad's uh, side lives there, my cousins live there.
Um, and their kids and everything so yeah, there is a lot of
people there.
Sydney Baker:
26:54
Why England?
Preenon Huq:
26:56
Um, my grandpa was part of the Bangladesh Embassy I think it
was, and then he moved there and then obviously took my dad
and all of his siblings to England. And then my dad uh, lived
there ever since he was eight. And then, lived there up until he
was about- I think he was about 30 or 35 or 36. So almost 30
years.
Sydney Baker:
27:20
And so then why did he choose to come to Minnesota?
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Preenon Huq:
27:23
Job opportunities. I think that my mom and him visited um, the
US a few times and it just you know, they wanted to see like,
the land of opportunity and just kinda see what it was like and
they end up moving here and my dad was doing consulting so
he was all over the country. And then um, they just happened
to stop in Minnesota for a little bit. And then the plan was to
move somewhere else but then they ended up like, staying in
Minnesota all of a sudden enrolled in school and then, we've
been here ever since.
Sydney Baker:
27:50
Did they meet in England?
Preenon Huq:
27:51
Uh my parents had an arranged marriage so like, I think my dad
went to Bangladesh and then like, met my mom. And I think like
it was like my mom's- my dad's cousin um, knew my mom's
brother's wife. Like something like that. And so they met like
one time and then they got married. So very different.
Sydney Baker:
28:16
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. We've already talked about
which place you prefer, um... I guess one big question that I
have, and this can be in your own words but, what does being a
muslim in Minnesota mean to you, personally?
Preenon Huq:
28:43
Um. It's- It's... that's a hard question (laughing) you know
'cause, it's so different and especially like for somebody who is
not very religious. That's something that I would like to do is get
more involved with like the community and like the mosque.
Um, there's one mosque in Plymouth and there's like all these
different mosque's all over the- the Twin Cities and I was
actually recently saying to somebody else like, we should have
only one or two mosque's or maybe three at most, in the
different corners of the state of Minnesota. And they should be
like, really nice and big and just reflect like our culture and what
we represent and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
29:20
Because, the mosque in Plymouth was like an old post office
that was converted into a mosque and it looks okay. And like a
lot of the- a lot of the other mosque's are kinda like that, they're
converted um, old buildings and I just think that we- we can do
better in a sense. You know, we can make it a community space,
we can add a gym, we could make it a place where like, anybody
in the community you know, whether you're muslim or not
muslim but like almost more like a community center and then
also have the mosque connected. I think that would be like,
kinda my overall goal or what I would like to see. Um, obviously
that's like just way down the road that's gonna take a lot of
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effort. I mean, but like, one day that's what's something I would
love to do and see myself doing.
Preenon Huq:
30:05
But for the time being, you know, just participating in like
Ramadan um, like, if- I haven't read the Quran. That's
something that I wanna do. If like, one of- somebody else like
some of my Bengali friends or something wanna like, do that I
would definitely be open to doing that. Um, maybe like, little bit
later down the road 'cause I think that's another thing that a lotyou'll realize that a lot of muslims become more religious as
they get older. Especially the ones that were born in the US,
have definitely seen that as they get older, they become more
religious and more involved with the community. And so that'sthat's probably where I'll end up as well.
Preenon Huq:
30:44
I mean, if I could, I would love to get the fundraising and build a
mosque, definitely the way that I would like to see it, you know.
I was talking to the- the person I was talking to, he said you
know, "That's just not really practical", because peop- muslims
pray five times a day and no one wants to drive from you know,
if they're living in Coon Rapids they're not gonna drive to
Plymouth to go to the mosque. So that's why I was saying that,
if we could have three or four different corners of the cities, so
then they're still easily accessible, you know, it could definitely
be possible.
Sydney Baker:
31:16
How do you think the community of Plymouth would react to
something like that?
Preenon Huq:
31:20
So that's tough. You know that's like another thing that's hard.
Like, I think that there was lot of backlash for building that
mosque originally in Plymouth. Also like in different areas. Um, I
remember they wanted to build a mosque a long time ago near
the 9/11 site in New York and you know there's a lot of backlash
for that too. But, I think that like, you know, every year get's
better, every year's changing, more people are becoming open
and I think that you know, just showing the positiv- positivity in
the community makes a difference you know.
Preenon Huq:
31:52
Offering like 'Welcome all neighbors', 'Welcome everybody' and
show that, and do good in the community, whatever needs to
be done, helping out, volunteer, and you just- that's the hardest
part right? You know, you're going against some- a group and
people that don't like you, but that's what you have to do. You
have to show them the kindness, and that's the hardest thing.
You know, that's one of the things about me that I think a lot of
people appreciate. You know, whether you like me or not I'm
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gonna be the same person no matter what. And, a lot of people
ask me how I do it and it's just like, I really think that, that's how
it should be like, I should be putting in like, the good that I
wanna see in the world, the change that I wanna see and if that
means you know, everyday like, somebody tries to shoot you
down and like put- and try to get rid of you that's- that's when
you have to push even harder, that's when you have to you
know, show them that no matter what you do, I'm gonna be a
good person, I'm gonna be this true person I am.
Preenon Huq:
32:50
And that's the type of community we're gonna be you know,
because that's what a community does. They take care of
everybody, whether you're you know, spray painting the
mosque, well we'll just repaint it you know. We'll take care of it,
we're gonna- that's our community and you're just destroying
your own community. But at the end of the day, we're- we're
gonna do everything possible that we can to make it a better
place.
Sydney Baker:
33:13
Well, those are all of the questions that I have for you um, is
there anything else that you wanna talk about?
Preenon Huq:
33:19
Um. I mean like, one thing that I was kinda like thinking about is,
just like also, um... I don't know how to put this like, what my
life would be like if I grew up with more muslims in the different
communities 'cause I think that a lot of people in like, New York
or like Texas where like we know a lot of other Bengali's and
stuff, or if all the Bengali's lived in one ar- area, um. Like there's
a lot- the Jewish community lives in Hopkins or St. Louis Park, a
lot of people know that and I just wonder if that's- that would
be better. You know, I wonder if that would be easier to you
know, create organization or having a muslim community and
then also educating people. Would that work out better? Or is it
better for us to be separated? But then it kinda goes back to
like, what I was saying earlier about how you're representing
your entire community. You know, if you're just in one spot,
then maybe you get too comfortable. And that was the thing
that I was thinking about with a lot of my friends who are
Hmong, when I'm talking to them and like, a lot of them might
not have the most positive um, interactions with people who
are white. You know, because they're so used to spending time
with people who are Hmong and their community and therethere's enough Hmong people where they almost don't have to
interact with anybody who is- who is not Hmong. Like they- I
mean they can go to the car dealer ships and they can see you
know, people that they're Hmong they can go to their favorite
stores and everything and find people that are the same. Where
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I just don't have that you know, ability. So I really wonder you
know, how different would my life be. Same with like the even
the Indian community, a lot of them live in Plymouth and Maple
Grove. I see a lot of them living um, I see a lot of them at Life
Time Fitness, the Hindu temple is in Maple Grove, you know
what- what that lifestyle is like, is it easier for their kids to go to
school and talk about their religion and talk about where they're
from and their background and stuff because there's so many of
them. You know they always say that there's like safety in
numbers, you know. So that's- that's one thing that I was really
interested in, you know, thinking about.
Sydney Baker:
35:23
Do you know if your sisters ever struggled in school?
Preenon Huq:
35:26
It's hard to say like, that's- my family, we don't really talk about
that kinda stuff. We- we just don't like and um, even when
we're having problems and stuff that's not the type of family
that we are. We don't really communicate with hose things. But
I'm sure that they've gone through it or if not worse. You know,
because obviously they're older and things have only gotten
better.
Sydney Baker:
35:51
Perfect. Well thank you so much for being interviewed.
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