Transcript of “Where Do We Go From Here?”
A panel discussion of Augsburg Faculty and Administration
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0388
Description: Augsburg administration and faculty wrap up "One Day in May" with a
question/comment and answer session. Augsburg's Pre... Show more
Transcript of “Where Do We Go From Here?”
A panel discussion of Augsburg Faculty and Administration
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0388
Description: Augsburg administration and faculty wrap up "One Day in May" with a
question/comment and answer session. Augsburg's President, Oscar Anderson, joined Dr.
Carl Chrislock, Dr. Einar Johnson, Dr. Phillip Quanbeck, Ken Fagerlie, and moderator Dr.
Douglas Ollila to hear and respond to student feedback. The panel was part of a day
focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May,"
1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:08:53
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[the recording cuts in as an unidentified speaker is speaking]
00:00:00
[Douglas Ollila] Where do we go from here? What is our role as a college?
It's been suggested that our curriculum is a little bit irrelevant. Our panel
members are President Oscar Anderson, Einar Johnson, Carl Chrislock,
third, and Phillip Quanbeck, and Ken Fagerlie1.
00:00:46
[Oscar Anderson] I don't know why I have to get these other fellas off the
hook by starting out, but I will try to just say a word. At the end of what has
been, I think, a very, very significant day at Augsburg, I think it's all and
more that we hoped it to be. Some of us have been thinking about this for
a long time. This whole matter of really taking time to listen, and I think
we've had some splendid presentations today. I think we've been talked to
directly, and honestly, forthrightly, and I hope that we've heard what has
been said.
1
Johnson: Professor of Education; Chrislock, Professor of History; Quanbeck, Professor of Religion;
Fagerlie, Vice President of Development
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 1
00:01:39
Now the question that the panel faces is this; where do we go from here? I
would like to submit that it's too soon to say. I don't think we can say, right
at this point, where we are going. I think we've heard too much to really be
able to sort through everything. I know how we feel, and maybe that's
what the last speaker said, we should just move ahead on the basis of
how we feel about it. I'm sure all of us want to move ahead, I think we
want to go someplace, but to sit here and say ‘now, this is what's going to
happen because of this One Day in May,’ I think would be presumptuous.
00:02:21
I know this: that we will have to wrestle with what we have heard today.
We will have to wrestle with it in all humility. First of all, realizing that we're
part of the problem, that we don't have the answers, but that we suspect
there are some areas into which we will have to move, such as the area of
our own curriculum, how to be sure that the people who leave this
institution are really educated, in terms of the whole man, in terms of what
it means, really, to be human. I think it means that we turn also to the
question of our own constituency as a student body, because I think we
are deprived, by virtue of the fact that we do not have the kind of racial mix
that we ought to have at Augsburg. I think it means that we look also in the
direction of action, further ways in which we can be involved.
00:03:29
These are just some of the areas that we're gonna have to wrestle with.
Now I'm not sure how we're gonna go about wrestling with them. I'm not
sure in my mind whether this is something that we wrestle with as a
community constituted mostly of white people, or whether this is
something that we can work out better with our Black brothers, I'm
groping, I don't know. I do know that what we will seek to do will have to
be within the context of what we are, and that is a college. We're not an
industry, we're not a social agency, we're not a segment of government,
we are an educational institution, whether that's good or bad, but that's
what we are. And what we do we will have to do within the context of our
own existence as one educational institution, in this community, seeking to
do what it can with this problem that has been so dramatically placed
before us today.
00:04:44
[Douglas Ollila] How about you fellas responding? We will get them to
respond, believe me, let's invite questions from the audience. Yes.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 2
00:05:01
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:06:15
[Oscar Anderson] I appreciate that because I think that's exactly the mood
of this college. That something is going to happen and it's going to happen
soon. I don't want to give the impression that it is going to be put off, but I
didn't want to give the impression that we can stand up here tonight and
say ‘this and this and this is going to be done’ because I think that would
be presumptuous. I think very, very, constructive things will be done,
because it is raining and we're gonna get the umbrella up. There's no
doubt about it, as far as I'm concerned.
00:06:48
[Carl Chrislock] I'd like to respond to this too. I think that I'm in a curricular
area that's very much involved here. I think I can promise, partly as a
result of the stimulus we've gotten today, that History 21 and 22 will be
taught somewhat differently than it has in the past.
00:07:18
[Thunderous applause from the audience that lasts 15 seconds]
00:07:31
[Carl Chrislock] I don't exactly know how to interpret that! [Laughter]
00:07:48
[Carl Chrislock] We have been, in the past few years, trying to give more
emphasis to the role of the Black man in American history, and we're
certainly going to work harder along that line. And I think, too, in our
department, we'll examine other courses--I can say this as a member of
the department, I'm not the chairman--to see if the emphasis is right, if it
doesn't have to be reoriented, but that's one specific suggestion.
00:08:32
[Douglas Ollila] Would you like to respond?
00:08:36
[Audience member] I was going to ask if the Education Department is
going to really delve into what we can do to relate to the inner-city
schools?
00:08:45
[Einar Johnson] Good --
00:08:46
Douglas Ollila] Question has to do with the role of the Education
Department--
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 3
00:08:50
[Einar Johnson] --Good, I wanted a chance to say a couple of things about
it. I'll have to warn you, though, that next year I'll be landing in Paris in the
midst of the riots if they keep on, I’m going on to Sweden where we are
too popular either [some laughter], but the department will be here, and
we have many things to be done. First, let me say that, as a department, I
think we have a very important role to play, and that part is in teacher
education and we should be and will be, I think, involved more with the city
than we have been.
00:09:33
This year, for instance, we are making arrangements for more student
teachers to go to the Minneapolis schools than we have in any year since
I've been here, and we think, and I am firmly convinced, that we have the
kind of student that, if they see the need, will rise to this. I think our
obligation, in part, is to give exposure to the need. I would like to say also
that, with fifty percent of our people going into a teacher education, this
means that this is not only the responsibility of the Education Department.
We tell accrediting agencies that this is a total college commitment, and I
think it's true that the educationists haven't been a hundred percent
successful in preparing teachers as far as their curriculum or the program
is concerned.
00:10:39
I think we're going to increasingly need to solicit the help of every
department in preparing a curriculum which will be more useful, more
beneficial, more pertinent to the situation. We are making some steps in
this direction. I think there are some steps underfoot now for some efforts
in cooperation among colleges and the universities. I feel that the
university and the colleges are wide open to doing some things together
and I would hope we would put our own stamp upon this and our own
influence upon this, and I think we can. By the way, one concrete thing
that has come out of this and one of your very fine speakers today, I
asked him if he would be able to and would be willing to come to talk to
one of our classes in “school in society,” and I think this is the sort of thing
we want to do.
00:11:43
We want to know, more specifically, how we can prepare teachers more
adequately for this situation for Minneapolis. Because after all, here we
are the only college in Minneapolis, and we would like to be relevant to
Minneapolis, and that means we're going to have and we intend to go to
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 4
the community and to other disciplines in trying to develop a more relevant
preparation for teachers. That's our little part of it in teacher education.
00:12:22
[Douglas Ollila] I'll recognize the lady over here, yes.
00:12:26
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:13:04
[Carl Chrislock] Well I teach one course in the Education Department, this
probably isn't an answer to your question. I don't think I can answer your
question entirely, but in the social studies methods class we're having as a
principal assignment the preparation of units to be fit into standard
courses in the high school curriculum and all of them involving minority
history we're encouraging the people who are members of the class to
secure resource materials from wherever, from the resource centers here
in Minneapolis. We're trying to get them to grips with the problem in that
respect and of course we expect in our social science courses to step up
the emphasis in minority history and minority culture apart from the
professional education courses.
00:14:10
[Einar Johnson] We've made steps already for next year to have the
student teachers who will be going to Minneapolis to be in attendance in
the same class as to which the the Minneapolis teachers will be diddling in
the area of minority history, and I already have a verbal agreement from
Minneapolis that they would be willing to take our students in such thing,
and we would feel that people, at least for these people are going into
Minneapolis, that they would have this exposure. In addition, we would
say that this was a part of our teacher education program. We're making
those very concrete steps. I have now a verbal agreement from
Minneapolis that this will be so.
00:14:43
[Douglas Ollila] Lady over here, please.
00:14:56
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:15:20
[Douglas Ollila] Would a new teacher qualify to teach in a deprived area?
00:15:29
[Einar Johnson] Well, I think you have to remember that people like myself
are groping in this, and we aren't as conversant with it as we should be.
We'd have to admit our inadequacy. I don't think that teachers as a group,
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 5
and including ours, who come from backgrounds that are different would
be adequately prepared, I don't suppose, really ever. We're trying to make
all possible efforts, no, I think that's an unfair statement I don't think we've
done nearly enough, but I think we I think we should do more to expose
them to what it means to be a teacher in deprived areas. I think that this is
one thing that needs to be more to be done.
00:16:30
I think I would have to rely, in large measure upon, again, what I feel
among our students a fine, dedicated people who as a group, who are
willing and conscientious and dedicated that probably isn't enough and we
can do much more and I think that you're probably aware that there are
some cooperative arrangements now in effect, under the latest
educational Act of Congress which may do some things in this area, I
hope.
00:17:09
[Douglas Ollila] What do you Auggies think here? You're always very
forthright. I'd like to hear from you. I'll recognize the fellow over here.
00:17:17
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:17:56
[Douglas Ollila] President Anderson will respond.
00:18:00
[Oscar Anderson] Some of the men at this panel know that, a week or two
ago, know I called a meeting of some of the faculty members and I said
‘now, I think you should be very serious about answering this question:
how can we be sure that no student leaves this institution without an
adequate exposure to minority history? How can we be sure that nobody
gets through this institution without facing the problems of racial bigotry
and prejudice?’ And I think that it's up to the Education Department to see
that no one leaves this institution to teach who hasn't had the exposure in
these areas that we've talked about. Now the things that Dr. Johnson has
said, I think, are going to bear fruit in the area of education. I think that
there are some things that can be done in the area of the religion courses
that will deal specifically with this, and in the sociology courses.
00:18:53
There are courses right now that maybe ought to be put into the general
educational requirements, and others removed, in order to make some of
these things possible, and I realize that this is a dangerous ground for an
administrator to be on, because he's not supposed to tell the faculty what
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 6
to teach or what the curriculum ought to be, but this was the question that
I put, and I got some real good response. This is the kind of thing that is
being grappled with right now.
00:19:20
[Douglas Ollila] I'll recognize the girl here, and you over there next.
00:19:26
[Audience member] The administration, and maybe the faculty [inaudible]
change their courses, but what do you do about people who don't know
what they're doing? What do you do about teachers who have no idea
what it means to change? With all the times that I have to teach this, this
has to be included in sociology, so we don't have time for this, or we can't
give it enough time. Unfortunately, we don't have enough time.
00:19:53
At the same time they’ll sit there and teach them for the fourth time, and
the fifth time, what you probably should have learned when you were in
high school, about the family of languages or something like this. How do
you change people, which is what the last speaker was talking about. How
do we change students who are so cooly aloof and I disagree with the
man from the education department. I don't think Augsburg students are
really dedicated, because we stand up there and look, and we say, ‘now I
look at it objectively’ but none of us look at it emotionally.
00:20:29
[Applause]
00:20:41
[Laughter]
00:20:44
[Philip Quanbeck] Do you really think that's true?
00:20:48
[Audience member] Yes.
00:20:50
[Philip Quanbeck] It occurs to me that we've talked, and that our last
speaker, Mr. Williams,2 talked about institutions, systems, establishments,
and individuals, and of course I think that we have some romantic notions
about what education can do with people. I think that we make some, we
have some ideas about what can be taught people, and how they can be
taught to respond that don't find much correspondence in reality, and so
I'd like to kind of just turn around and pose the question in a different way.
2
The former name of Mahmoud El-Kati.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 7
00:21:34
Now, most of you are students, and you're here a max--now, I shouldn't
say maximum, one of my friends went to school for seventeen years in
college [laughter]--but let's say you're here ordinarily, for four years, and
sometimes for less. And what's important I think for you, really, is not
simply what the institution does about minority history, it seems to me that,
from what we've heard today, what's important is the sort of attitude that
you bring to those structures within which you live when you leave the
place
00:22:23
[Audience member] Wrong!
00:24:24
[Philip Quanbeck] Yeah, I don't think it's wrong! You talk about established
prejudice. Prejudice is established by institutions, and it's maintained by
individuals and I think that you and I are part of that. I think that the
dictionary description this morning of red, white, yellow, and black was
indicative of that subtle prejudice that, you know, that fills our lives. And I
think that we have to do with this institution and we have to try to work with
the institution, and see that it doesn't perpetuate that, but I think that when
you leave the institution--and you are here for a relatively short time--that
you have responsibilities which aren't simply institutionalized. I think you
have to deal with it.
00:23:22
[Audience member] I have three suggestions. I think that the Department
of Sociology should be informed by minority groups [inaudible] We need a
legal history course. I think in English we should have a literature course
that deals primarily with Black authors, and there should be a required
course that deals with Black authors. I think in the bookstore, we should
have more book by Black authors, and a whole section devoted to Black
authors. And I think last, but not least, we need more Black professors.
00:24:19
[Applause]
00:24:29
[Douglas Ollila] Yes.
00:24:32
[Audience member] Can you repeat the question for the people each
time?
00:24:34
[Douglas Ollila] Thank you. Let's see. Okay I'll recognize you.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 8
00:24:40
[Audience member] [Inaudible] My question is, are we worried about
[inaudible] Or are we worried about people not getting the exposure that
they need [inaudible] whichever way it goes, not setting up and education
course [inaudible] exposure they need to [inaudible]
00:25:17
[Douglas Ollila] That's a pretty long question to repeat, who would like to --
00:25:26
[Philip Quanbeck] --can’t answer--
00:25:24
[Laughter, followed by a long pause]
00:25:39
[LaJune Johnson] My name is LaJune Johnson, and as a member of the
steering committee for “One Day in May”--who, at the request of the
president, have slaved for almost a month trying to put across a program
that we hope will not end on May 15th, 1968--I'm not gonna stand back
and let these people say that we have to learn after we get out of
Augsburg, because we're not gonna pay twelve hundred dollars a year to
hear the stuff that's not relevant to us as human beings because you go to
college to further your knowledge, not to be whitewashed.
00:26:18
Now President Anderson will sit in his office and tell me he believes in
Black power, and then he'll come out here and say that ‘we don't know
what to do, we can't decide now, and we don't want to move too fast, and
be peaceful’ and all this kind of stuff. Now we've got to have at least some
positive approaches to the problem. We can't--curriculum can't change
overnight. I think everybody is realistic enough to know, but if the Board of
Education, which has control over most people, can say that, by
September, we will have books by Black people, Black Americans in the
English classes, as required reading, that Malcolm X will have, with
parental permission, that students will have a day off for him, and to
recognize the contributions of all minority groups, for all the schools, in
Minneapolis, and Augsburg's the only four-year liberal arts college in
Minneapolis with fifty percent of its teachers graduating supposed to be
going out to educate, and they're not aware of this?
00:27:28
You can't be doing the function that you're supposed to and another thing,
Mr. Fagerlie is working on the FAME Program.3 Now this is supposed to
get minority students into college, give them an opportunity to be exposed,
3
Financial Aid for Minority Education Program
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 9
and to go through four years of college and also the summer transition
program. The Black students at Augsburg will not support this program if
some changes aren't made in the system here at Augsburg.
00:27:56
[Applause]
00:28:12
[Douglas Ollila] Some very specific proposals have been made, I wonder if
there are any responses to the FAME program and why this isn't
supported, what needs to be changed --
00:28:27
[Audience member] What about Cap and Gown?4
00:28:29
[Douglas Ollila] What about Cap and Gown? Here's a girl over here.
00:28:32
[Mostly inaudible question from the audience] --doesn’t have the quality
that other students have, yet we’re very insistent about the college’s
ambitions. There are many students who are here by the grace of their
[inaudible]
00:29:16
The question has to do with our responsibility for deprived students who
can't meet our admission standards. What --
00:29:23
[Audience member] Don't call them deprived students! [Inaudible]
00:29:30
[Applause]
00:29:38
[Oscar Anderson] I agree with that, I think I made the statement there that
this was one of the deprivations that we were suffering here. I appreciate
very much the comments that LaJune made, and I think that these
comments that have been made by some of the faculty members ought to
be interpreted in terms of the fact that things will be changed when we get
back to school in the fall, in terms of these sociology courses, these
history courses, these education courses, these things are going to be
done. And I certainly didn't want to give the impression that nothing would
happen. I simply wasn't going to be so presumptuous as to stand here and
tell you all the things that I thought ought to happen because I think you
Possibly a reference to an editorial in The Echo (May 8, 1968, page 3) that calls for scrapping the
annual “Cap and Gown” breakfast and donating it’s $2,000 (almost $15,000 in 2020) cost to the FAME
program.
4
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 10
ought to tell us what ought to happen! And that's exactly what's taking
place in this kind of dialogue and that's why I think it's important.
00:30:29
Now let's get down to this question here. I think that the college transition
program that we're trying to institute this summer will make it possible for
us to say to any student, Black student, or otherwise who has not been
able to fulfill the normal admission requirements. ‘Look, you take this
program, and we believe that it is of sufficient depth and integrity that it will
make it possible for you to get into Augsburg College.’ Then there are
students who do not have high school diplomas, and we have said these
people can enroll at Augsburg College, we've made specific arrangements
for that kind of student who wants to pick up his education, who has been
deprived, for some reason or other of his high school diploma.
00:31:20
These things are happening, they're happening in the admission
requirements, they're happening in the various tracks that are set up that
people can utilize so that we can give more people an opportunity to get
an education at Augsburg College. Now I know it isn't enough yet, but it's
a start.
00:31:37
[Douglas Ollila] Kim.
00:31:40
[Audience member] I'd like to suggest that tomorrow morning you call a
meeting in your office [inaudible] people, students who are ready for
change [inaudible] We’re going to have 20 minority students in the fall,
we’d better have it together [inaudible].
00:32:16
[Douglas Ollila] Kim has proposed that President Anderson call a
committee of ten students with LaJune as the chairman.
00:32:31
[Oscar Anderson] I'll be happy to receive such a committee in my office
and, if you want me to set the time right now, I will. I realize that there's
always problems of scheduling, but if you want to make it 9:00 or 9:30, let
me know, and we'll be there to talk it over. I just certainly welcome this
kind of response
00:32:48
[Applause]
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 11
00:32:58
[Audience member] Yes, I’d like to direct this question to Dr. Quanbeck.
Since religion is the only department that is required of every student
[inaudible] I was wondering if [inaudible]
00:33:27
[Applause]
00:33:33
[Douglas Ollila] Can the religion requirements be somewhat altered so that
they will speak more relevantly to the issues today?
00:33:43
[Philip Quanbeck] I'm sure that, within the context of the religion
department requirements, that that can be done, and I'm sure that it can
be done in the introduction to theology course which is offered first year to
all students.
00:34:02
[Audience member] In terms of one specific suggestion, it seems to me
that rather than letting the head of our Education Department spend its
sabbatical running through Sweden and France, we should send them to
the inner-city schools so they can learn where it’s at.
00:34:14
[Applause]
00:34:21
[Douglas Ollila] A proposal for a change in sabbatical has been made.
[laughter] The change will be instead of Sweden, the inner city. [laughter]
Somebody else had his hand up over here.
00:34:38
[Inaudible question from the audience] I'd like to hear some concrete
changes -- [inaudible]
00:35:17
[Douglas Ollila] What proposals specifically do the members of the panel
have? I think I should remind you that some proposals have already been
made. President Anderson has talked about one already. Do any of the
members of the panel want to respond in terms of specific proposals,
changes, and courses have been talked about. We talked about them for
a long time. What else specifically is proposed?
00:35:52
[Oscar Anderson] Well as I took it, this was the purpose of this meeting,
was not to to superimpose upon this group the changes that a few people
thought ought to be made, but that this was the place for some dialogue to
take place so that we could understand each other, and in that way arrive
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 12
at some solutions. Now we've had some splendid suggestions in the area
of curriculum. We have talked about change in the mix of the student
body. We've talked about changes in the admissions requirements, and
the various tracks that the college sets up. These are specific things that
we think ought to be done. Now I think that the meeting tomorrow will
bring out some further suggestions, and again we're open.
00:36:43
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:37:18
[Douglas Ollila] What about Negro faculty members, and I'd suspect you'd
want to add to that, resource persons as we had here today.
00:37:32
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:37:43
[Unidentified speaker, presumably faculty in Chemistry] There is a
tendency and a possibility of being carried away in an event like this.
Remember what you have heard is highly biased in one direction. We are
not all wrong in what is going on here at the moment, and any deficiency
that you have is partly your own. For you have eyes. You can read the
paper, you can see what is going on. You need not necessarily sit in a
course, and have it taught to you. As a matter of fact, your college
education is primarily to get you ready to think and look for yourself, and
that is not limited to your classes. Relative to a colored person,
Africo-American [sic] on the faculty, our chemistry department, two years
ago, made a bona fide offer to a highly qualified person, a Negro. New
PhD, we were turned down, he could make more money in industry. He
had a golden opportunity to come, but he did not take it.
00:38:51
[Inaudible chatter from the audience]
00:38:59
[Unidentified chemistry professor] I'm sorry I don't see who spoke over
here.
00:39:07
[Audience member amid crosstalk] We're getting your bias!
00:39:08
[Another audience member amid crosstalk] Yeah! We always get your
bias, why can't we have some Negro bias?
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:39:12
[Another audience member amid crosstalk] You're prejudiced in this
manner.
00:39:14
[Unidentified chemistry professor] May I have the honor of carrying on for
a moment here please?
00:39:17
[Inaudible speaking from the audience]
00:39:30
[Unidentified chemistry professor, possibly Courtland Agre] May I have the
floor for a moment, I still have it please. Let us remember now when you
are talking about bringing any person into Augsburg, or any other college,
you have certain requirements. You have had to meet them. Now then, let
us grant that the Africo-Americans [sic] have had many disadvantages in
their homes, in the areas in which they live, let us not minimize that, but by
the same token, how are they going to come and do college work when
they would not do it in high school?
00:40:05
[Inaudible speaking and crosstalk from the audience]
00:40:07
[Philip Quanbeck, speaking under his breath] Oh, come on. Don’t. Don’t.
Come on.
00:40:11
[Unidentified audience member, possibly Courtland Agre] At least we're
getting a little activity here. [laughter] Let us not rush on, let us not rush
on from the viewpoint. We're going to change things radically because
we've heard today. We're going to change things I trust that we shall.
00:40:25
[Mostly inaudible speaking from the audience] You wanted to hold your
chemistry class while this whole thing was going on.
00:40:34
[Unidentified chemistry professor, possibly Courtland Agre] I wonder who
told you that.
00:40:37
[Mostly inaudible speaking from the audience] We know that. We
know.[laughter]
00:40:43
[Unidentified chemistry professor, possibly Courtland Agre] May I--I yield
the floor to those of you who know so much more.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:40:49
[Audience member] I’d like to ask President Anderson, was there a memo
sent out to make sure that the classes wouldn’t be held, and was it you, in
a faculty meeting, who added a [inaudible] to hold classes on this day?
00:41:02
[Unidentified chemistry professor, possibly Courtland Agre] The faculty
meeting is a closed event, it is not to be published. Now, whoever told you
that I did anything in a faculty meeting spoke where it did not belong
00:41:11
[Mostly inaudible response from the audience] But whether he spoke or
[inaudible] [crosstalk and shouting from the audience]
00:41:16
[Oscar Anderson] I'd just like to say that the memo, which was sent out,
was in order to clarify the understanding of the administration and the
faculty, as to the character of this day. And I hope that
00:41:32
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:41:35
[Oscar Anderson] No. I had no overtures from Dr. Agre with respect to
keeping laboratories open. [Inaudible] whatsoever now the Dean may, I
don't know because the Dean isn't here to answer for that. I'd like to say
this: that I wish we could have more Afro-American professors. And I know
that these people are in very, very short supply, now if we could get--we
have candidates applying from many quarters, and I'm sure that this is one
area in which we would like to make some significant advances.
00:42:06
And I think one of the professors that's made a great contribution here at
Augsburg is Mrs. Howard. I think this has been a start, and we'd like to
move further. Now, I would like to venture one suggestion, and that is that
we consider using some of these people who have made such splendid
presentations today as adjunct professors at Augsburg College so that we
could call on them.
00:42:28,
[Applause]
00:42:36
[Oscar Anderson] See this is one of the wonderful things about being in
this community. We've got these people who are willing and believe me
they were very willing to come today and I am amazed at their response,
the willingness to be here, and I think they would be willing to also help us
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 15
in our courses as adjunct members of our faculty. I really believe that
that's a real possibility.
00:42:57
[Philip Quanbeck] I believe Ken Bailey5 has been asked to respond.
00:43:05
[Kenneth Bailey] I would like to clarify one matter, if I may please. It is
perfectly true that there were some faculty who were concerned about the
fact that on the 8th of May, and the 15th of May, and the 30th and 31st of
May, all in the same month, that class periods and laboratories would be
missed, which would mean to them that substantial parts of the material of
the courses being taught would be missed by the students.
00:43:51
Now, there was no organized group in the faculty meeting which
requested permission to hold laboratories on this day or on Registration
Day. There were a few individuals who asked permission to leave
laboratories open, on a voluntary basis, on one or the other of these days,
and in virtually every instance, the decision by the faculty and myself was
to leave laboratories open on Registration Day in preference to this day,
the One Day in May. I will have you understand that the faculty, as a
whole, was thoroughly in favor of holding this day, and you should not cast
aspersions against people who were as thoroughly in favor of this
occasion as anyone that I know.
00:44:48
[Applause]
00:45:01
[Douglas Ollila] All right we're going to have to close very quickly, but I
think there should be time for one more question.
00:45:10
[Mostly inaudible question from the audience] I have a personal interest in
community relation centers, since it falls under student government, we
attempted to set it up this year, but it has to be recognized that the work of
a student [inaudible] can't possibly affect any kind of change for [inaudible]
participation [inaudible]. We've got a community research center
[inaudible] I think it’s time we had a community participation center.
00:46:05
[Unidentified panelist] Amen.
00:46:05
[Applause]
5
Kenneth Bailey, President of Academic Affairs.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:46:15
[Kenneth Bailey] I would like to add one last comment if I may please. I
think there has been some serious misunderstanding of things that have
been said by the members of the panel tonight, particularly, the comments
made by Dr. Quanbeck. Let me be as clear as I know how to be. You may
be sure that the college will do everything it possibly can to be sure that,
as an institution, we do not perpetuate racism. But let me say this one
other thing: that regardless of what the institution may do, the final key to
the problem is you and me. We are the ones who will determine the
impact that any program the college can devise will have upon us as
citizens, and it is perfectly true that you come to the colleges as the kind of
people you are, you leave the institution as the kind of people that you are,
and that is where the proof of the pudding lies.
00:47:41
The kind of people you are when you come, while you're here, and when
you leave, and this is all that Dr. Quanbeck was saying, is that the college
can do what it can, but in spite of that, it is just as possible for a person to
go through a course in Black history and be totally unaffected by it, as it is
possible for a person to sit through a year's course in religion and be
totally unaffected by it. Now your willingness to be affected by the things
that happen like a day like today is your responsibility and not the
institution's.
00:48:21
We do have a responsibility, yes, but so do you, and so do I as an
individual, and as individuals, it is up to us to see to it that we live up to the
opportunity that we have now.
00:48:37
[Applause]
00:49:03
[Douglas Olliila] I think that, on that very fine note, we can conclude
00:49:09
[Several members of the audience say “No!”]
00:49:14
[Douglas Ollila] Why don't we let those who want to leave leave and spend
a few minutes yet together. [laughter] Nobody wants to leave.
00:49:27
[Inaudible member of the audience] Mr. moderator, can we also put it this
way, that let those who must leave, leave.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 17
00:49:33
[Douglas Ollila] Let those who must leave, leave. And some must, of
course, obviously.
00:49:41
[Inaudible question from the audience, and the microphone cuts out for a
moment]
00:50:11
[Unidentified panelist] Indeed.
00:50:13
[Philip Quanbeck] I'd like to suggest that--at noon we did, there was this
worship.
00:50:22
[Inaudible response from the audience]
00:50:24
[Philip Quanbeck] Well I don't know where you were--
00:50:29
[Inaudible response from the audience]
00:50:31
[Philip Quanbeck] Well that's, you know, what we did was pray,
[stammers] but you see here we are in this predicament and, you know,
religionists, people interested in religion and theology and interested in
being Christian like I, we've said far too often, you know, that if you've got
that peace you know real down in your in your heart, well then that's
alright and you see what we should like to insist is the correspondence
between the affirmation and the action, and I guess that I should not like to
imply by our earlier comments that society is, you know, atomized and
individualized.
00:51:34
I should like to agree with those who say that that we have systematized,
established prejudice. I'm certain that that's the case. And in order to
disengage that prejudice, we have to deal with the system and with the
establishment, but nobody--or I should say not nobody, but--we will not be
engaged to participate in that disengagement, if we if we do not will it, you
see. And so I would guess that in the first place there the group did gather
for worship, we did gather for prayer, and in the second place there is the
social and individual relationship between which there must be
correspondence.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:52:31
[Audience member] I don’t think, personally, that Augsburg College has
been a Christian College until May 15th, 1968. I think that, until this day,
Augsburg has been an old-fashioned Norwegian college. [Applause and
laughter]
00:52:43
[Unidentified panelist] Thank you.
00:52:51
[Douglas Ollila] ‘Augsburg, until this day, has not been a Christian college’
was the comment.
00:52:59
[Audience member, mostly inaudible] I think we've been praying ever
since our country was founded [inaudible].
00:53:11
[Another audience member, mostly inaudible] Well since Augsburg is
affiliated with the church [inaudible], well obviously our graduates
[inaudible].
00:53:31
[Douglas Ollila] What will Augsburg graduates do for the church? He's
suggesting a difference between the institutionalized church and the kind
of thing that's taught at Augsburg.
00:53:47
[Mostly inaudible response from the audience disputing the recap]
00:54:04
[Douglas Ollila] What do you do with the church at large, what do you do
with local congregations if your attitudes are different?
00:50:16
[Oscar Anderson] Well I guess that's why we're in business, in order to get
people infiltrated into these congregations so that there can be some
change, and that's why we had the Day because I think this is a basic
expression of our Christian concern. And it was a great risk because a lot
of people are offended by this kind of thing, but so be it! This has got to
happen in order for us to really be consistent. Now, I think I ought to say,
and I don't know much about it, but some very concrete steps are being
taken in our own American Lutheran Church, and remember this: that only
fifty-six or three percent of our student body come from that particular
segment of Lutheranism, so I think we have to be very careful here, but
the Project Summer Hope, which is now being instituted in the
congregations of this particular group is intended as a crash program to do
exactly what we've done today.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 19
00:55:12
Now, whether this is carried out a hundred percent in all congregations, I
have no way of knowing because I'm not in those circles, but I can say
that Project Summer Hope is intended to give the kind of exposure and to
give the kind of unsettling that such a day ought to give. An establishment
that is all too complacent and which needs the kind of students that we
believe Augsburg can produce and send back into all of the areas of the
establishment and do the kind of job that ought to be done in this area.
00:55:45
[Unidentified panelist] The local congregation is not merely a brick wall
and to take no responsibility for it is cynical.
00:55:54
[Inaudible response from the audience]
00:56:19
[Douglas Ollila] She has made the suggestion that Augsburg students
make some recommendations which can be sent to local congregations,
some recommendations on the basis of the kind of experience we had
here today as a response. This is a specific kind of suggestion, what do
you want to speak to? Mrs. Karens.
00:56:44
[Inaudible response from the Audience]
00:57:24
[Douglas Ollila] Faculty exchange programs with southern universities and
colleges has been suggested. Do we have faculty interchange at
Augsburg? Not at this point, it's very good suggestion.
00:57:42
[Mostly inaudible response from the audience] exactly What religion, no
matter What you call it, What your religion is, your personal views and
attitudes. do What you do with other people. You talk about what maybe
Bishop Pike says or Tillich says, or something like this, which is fine, and
which I think [inaudible], but that's my opinion, but we don't talk about what
do I believe, what do we as thirty or forty students [inaudible] what do we
actually believe. What do we do with it, what do we practice, and how
must we change or can we change it, or will we change it?
00:58:57
[continue, mostly inaudible, statement from the audience] and that's where
it should be [inaudible] everybody has to take it.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 20
00:59:04
[Douglas Ollila] Freshman religion ought to deal with one's own personal
affirmations and attitudes
00:59:11
[Philip Quanbeck] Why don't you respond?
00:59:13
[Douglas Ollila] Well I think that all of us in freshman English, I don't know
what happens at St. Olaf, or religion, I teach English too, so. I think that
most of us do expect a student to learn how to think theologically and to
learn how to think theologically means that you have to read some of the
theologians. You have to know what, well Bishop Pike is old hat, but you
have to know what Tillich thinks and you have to know at Bonhoeffer says
and what others have contributed and I really don't think that one can
really come to a definitive conclusion about what I think or what I would
like to think now or how I would like to restructure my theology until I have
examined some of these theologians.
01:00:02
It seems to me that that's a prerequisite, however--
01:00:07
[Audience member]-- you talk about what you do and we don't talk about
that!
01:00:12
[Douglas Ollila] What we do?
01:00:13
[Audience member] What we do!
01:00:14
[Douglas Ollila] Well I think, well I haven't quite finished with what I started,
okay. In most or many of the freshmen religion courses each student is
expected to write a concluding statement on what conclusions he has
reached. Now we try to think--we don't stack your conclusions for you,
perhaps we do, we're not completely objective--nevertheless, your
conclusions ought to be your own and what conclusions you reach
theologically are intimately related to the kinds of things that you do. Well,
what about what you do? Well, in many of our courses we provide
textbooks which are specifically concerned with some of the relevant
concerns in society. I should think that secular [inaudible] is about what I
ought to be doing and what you ought to be doing.
01:01:15
It seems to me that we do this. I hope we accomplish this objective
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 21
01:01:20
[Mostly inaudible response from the audience]
01:01:29
[Douglas Ollila] Education ought not to be merely courses, but
involvement if we're going to talk about the inner city and its problems, we
ought to be involved in the structures of the inner city. Anybody want to
respond? Phil?
01:01:49
[Philip Quanbeck] You know the teaching of religion, or the teaching of
any course in which you know values come to some sort of expression is
not, I think, a simple job and the teaching of religion courses in in a society
which has become more and more, becoming more and more pluralistic.
01:02:12
That doesn't make it more easy. I think that there is a sense in which, in
our courses, for example, take for example the Introduction to Theology,
we seek to address some of the problems which actually exist. For
example in reading Harvey Cox's book The Secular City, that he really
talks about some of the problems. Now, there isn't just one problem. There
are really many problems, and I think that the course seeks to introduce
some of those problems. Some years ago in an honors section in a course
called Basic Bible we used to read as a matter of course in connection
with the prophets, Lillian Smith's, Killers of the Dream which was an
attempt to introduce the the particular problem in relation to an
understanding of religion, but I think that it's not an uncomplicated problem
01:02:23
[Douglas Ollila] I don't believe you've asked a question yet.
01:03:30
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:04:08
[Douglas Ollila] We really ought to try to get faculty members,
Afro-American faculty members. We ought to make a real attempt to this
as you suggested.
01:04:22
[Philip Quanbeck] Yeah I suppose that there isn't a self-respecting
university or college in the country that isn't looking for qualified Negro
faculty members. Now, I think that's true, and I suppose that the number of
available competent faculty members, Negro and white, is not unlimited.
01:04:54
[Douglas Ollila] Yes, right here.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 22
01:04:56
[Inaudible response from the audience]
01:05:09
[Applause]
01:05:22
[Douglas Ollila] Thank you. [laughter] Should we agree on, should we
agree on two more questions? [the audience responds with “No.”] We will
make it three [laughter] over here. I'll recognize the fellow here.
01:05:42
[Mostly inaudible question from the audience] It seems to me that we keep
going around and around [inaudible] things on again and it gets right back
to the basic things of What we as a community, a Christian community
especially , are going to do about it. You know, we can sit here and throw
questions out which [inaudible] all the students at Augsburg [Inaudible]
Unless we do something concrete you're just gonna let it slide, and One
Day in May won’t mean a thing.
01:06:11
[Douglas Ollila] We have committed ourselves to something very concrete
here this evening I think. I really believe we have.
01:06:19
[Inaudible response from the audience]
01:06:44
[Douglas Ollila] She affirmed the excellence of the experience today.
[laughter] One more question. Right back there.
01:06:57
[Inaudible response from the audience]
01:07:14
[Douglas Ollila] I didn't hear all of the question--It had to do with why this
hasn't taken place before.
01:07:19
[Inaudible response from the audience with crosstalk]
01:07:40
[Douglas Ollila] All right. It's been suggested that--[laughter in the
audience]it’s been suggested that we try this again.
01:07:51
[Unidentified panelist] Betty, Betty back there.
00:07:51
[Douglas Ollila] Betty?
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 23
01:07:52
[Betty McCoy, speaking from the audience] I think we should have more
[inaudible] anytime that something goes wrong here, you have somebody
[inaudible] so why not have Black people coming and talking about
different things. Maybe once a week, you know, better than just putting
one day aside and talk about it and revel over it over it again, how about
what plan to do [Inaudible] Why not just do something? I mean,
everybody's tired of of the same old bag. ‘We're gonna do this, we're
gonna try this.’ Time is out for trying, it's time to act and unless Augsburg
acts now, you ain't gonna have no Black students!
01:08:38
[Douglas Ollila] Thank You Betty.
01:08:41
[Applause]
01:08:49
[Douglas Ollila] Thank you for your splendid response this evening.
“Where Do We Go From Here?” panel discussion (transcript), page 24
Show less
Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.00124a
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commis... Show more
Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.00124a
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commission; Sumner Jones, a staff member at The Way; Dr. Ronald Palosaari; and
Dr. Mary Howard discuss issues of sex and racism in a morning panel at Augsburg
College, now Augsburg University, in Minneapolis. The panel was part of a day focused
on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968
May 15.
Duration: 01:00:01
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:04
[The recording cuts in as Lillian Anthony is speaking] ...often saw her, not
as the woman would be a replica of his wife, but really as a woman, and
he saw that shaft of light going from his back door to that little shack. And
so there were many little children that came that way [inaudible section as
the microphone is adjusted] And at the same time, remember this man
that she is living with, and I say that because in that, the early period they
were not permitted to marry. And even if they were permitted to marry, this
still occurred, this man can’t do anything at all! And so you can begin to
see how this white man might think that the, under the whip, threat of
death, this Black man better not tell the white woman. And so if this man
thinks this way, he began to conjure up in his mind the fact that the Black
man wants to have sexual intercourse with his wife or with his daughters.
00:01:12
“Well my daughters and my wife would not want to have that animal,
therefor he would have to rape her. He would have to coerce her. She was
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 1
not willing to go to bed with that Black man. That animal.” So here we
come up to the whole historical business of Black men, particularly in the
South, being afraid to even lift their head up because they were [inaudible]
white women [inaudible]. Often this woman would yell “rape.” And this
man, he’d die. [inaudible]
00:01:48
So when they wanted to get rid of Black men throughout the history of this
country. They’ve been able to yell “rape.” [inaudible] And at the same time,
then, our Christianity has taught us that sexual intercourse was
permissible in the framework of a marriage. And that it was bad outside of
that. And yet we were able as human beings to relate one to the other
would go through all these petty processes, you know, and get all stirred
up. And you weren’t able to do anything about it.
00:02:30
How many of you young men or young girls, I see that there’s a thing
going on now that young men are saying, you know “you really gotta help
me out.” You know, “you don’t want me to become a homosexual.”
[inaudible] The other thing is they’re using saran wrap, heard about that?
Can’t buy any prophylactics or pills and things so they’re using saran wrap
and doctors are having a real time and headaches. Saran wrap. Girls are
using stupid things like 7-up. [long silence] Well, you brought it up.
[Laughter]
00:03:28
Yeah, and some of the girls are using [inaudible] some there is reason get
rid of those little things and make babies called sperm [inaudible] So we're
saying basically [inaudible] So I have now given you kind of a historical
perspective of this and I’m now thinking that the other two can give their
points of view and we can talk when they’re done.
00:04:13
[Ronald Palosaari] Well, I'm here mainly to integrate the panel [audience
laughs] And the particular thing I hear is just tangentially related to sex
and race. I happen to have three children at home, if they haven’t burned
the place down by now. They're all rioters. But we have two, two girls and
a boy. And last summer my neighbor was walking by and said to my
blonde daughter “my, your brother has a nice tan doesn't he?” And my
daughter, put out anytime her brother is praised, said “yes, but he is a
Negro you know, and they are darker.” [audience makes a shocked noise
and some laugh]
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 2
00:05:01
So I'm on because we have a mixed racial family. And we adopted
Michael after we adopted two Caucasian girls, mainly because we lacked
the courage to do it the first two times, you know. We had thought about
and talked about but, like like most white families, we were wondering you
know, “what would people say, and what will the in-laws say,” because my
father is prejudiced and Audrey’s folks are from North Dakota [the
audience laughs]. And it's not that they're prejudiced, they’ve just never
seen, you know [audience laugs] a Negro. They don't allow them except at
the Air Force the Air Force base.
00:05:44
But we finally we finally adopted Michael. And we did not we did not adopt
Michael because we thought, you know, we were going to give him a great
life. Being my son is not, you know, no guarantee of a great life [audience
laughs]. We adopted Michael because we thought, in this society, we
needed Michael more probably than he needed us. But the truth of course
is there are babies that need adoption, many of them are racially mixed
now. The problems we have faced, so far just really nothing at all, but we
know that in his lifetime Michael, because he is part Negro, is going to
face hatred. He's going to face bitterness. He's going to be insulted. What
are we going to do about this as as parents?
00:06:29
Well there's really very little we can do except to try and give Michael
some pride in his white heritage and pride in his Black heritage. And he is
going to somehow make his own adjustment of being in a society which is
white and black of being both. The real problems have come, of course,
when Michael hits high school and college. Who is he going to date, you
see, and who is he going to marry? Do you think Michael should date only
whites, only blacks or that he can make it his duty to find those who are
also of mixed racial parentage, but who really knows? Michael will have to
make his own decisions, but so far as anyone’s asking us, Michael can
date anyone he pleases. Anyone will go out with him [audience laughs]
Anyone he feels like asking.
00:07:18
If boys are still asking girls [the audience laughs] by the time Michael hits
that--when it comes to married, is fine. Michael again will make his own
choice obviously as most young people do. He wants to marry pure white
and pure Black or in between that is Michael's choice, and it's certainly all
right with us. But the problem is going to have to be faced. But the reason
I'm here is because I think probably most of you think when you think
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 3
about married the most you think of producing little babies just like
yourself. But I would suggest that what we need is not girls going on
producing five and six babies you see. What we need are people who are
willing to adopt after you have your first or second baby.
00:08:04
Why not consider adoption? And if you consider adoption, why not
consider a racially mixed adoption? Or if you find out that you have--that
you are going to adopt anyway, and you and you cannot make your first
adoption racially mixed, adopt your second or your third one racially
mixed. Be willing to consider that. There are families in this town which
could have natural children, and instead have adopted with mixed families.
Some Caucasian, some racially mixed. One family we know of and I
admire the [last name of the family stated but is inaudible] perseverance if
nothing else has seven children: one natural, six children adopted. All six
racially mixed.
00:08:43
The other day we had a meeting of families who have adopted racially
mixed children, and one lady said that when--since so many times these
kids get shoved around from foster home to foster home, that when they
finally got their little girl she came to them and she said “my last mommy
didn't want me. I hope that you will want me.” This is a little two and a half
year old, and since she is now adopted, she was wanted. I don't want to
end this with a sad story, to end with a sad story, but these kids are there,
and they need to be adopted.
00:09:22,
Now, if you say “well, why doesn't the Black community adopt them?” You
already, I think, are revealing some kind of deep prejudice which all of us
whites I think have. And that is of course: why should the Black community
adopt those children who are racially mixed? Why should the Black
community even adopt those children who are black, except that they
want to and that they have economic means. In our society, it is so often
the whites who have the means. This is the result of discrimination and
prejudice, but the child who is racially mixed, it seems to me, is a child
who is in need of a home, and the person who does not feel that he can
provide a home for that racially mixed child, then I think has has some
really deep, deep, hang-up. Well that's that's my little pitch. I also have
some views on the rest of the game if you want that.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 4
10:14
[Sumner Jones] I might start off by saying I don't know a whole lot about
sex, but I do know a whole lot about racism. And racism, like any other
“-ism,” is more of a discipline than anything else. We know, for a fact, just
looking around us, that wherever whites and people of color--I can't say
only Black because then I'm excluding a great many other colors--coexist
in the same geographic area, there exists a system of white racism which
distorts reality to a an unrecognizable degree. I think, in this country, one
of the ways that it manifests itself is in the sexual relations of not only
white women and Black men, but more important white men and Black
women, because there are really only two free peoples in this country.
00:11:31
That's the white male and the black female. If you want to talk about what
racism has done, look at prostitution. Look at the vast number of black
girls that go out onto the street to sell to that white man, that nice
middle-class man as such does distorted views of what sex is all about.
He feels he can't do it to his wife unless he's going to have kids, and once
you have so many kids you can feel that you can't afford anymore, and it's
biological necessity. We all get horny. So he goes out to the street and
picks up a Black woman, and the blacker the better. What's that old saying
down south: the blacker the berry the sweeter the juice and they believe it.
But what's this doing to the white female? More important, what's
doing--more important to me, totally selfishly, what's it doing to that Black
man?
00:12:48
It's destroying them both, in a sense, it's taking away the manhood of the
of the Black man and certainly taking away the femininity of the of the
white female because your white women have been put up on a pedestal
by your men which is detrimental to you because these needs aren't
fulfilled. the man can do whatever he pleases. If he feels the urge in the
middle of the night he always comes down to Plymouth Avenue and I've
seen them lined up. When I was a kid going to Warrington they used to
stop me coming from school asking me where they could go find a woman
and I tell him to go rap on the second garbage can they give me a dollar
and stand there and wait. [audience laughs]
00:13:44
Now this is the sort of thing it does. I think two things have to be attacked.
Two things have to be really evaluated in this system, and I don't want to
take the time to evaluate them orally at the moment. One is that system of
racism. It's got to be destroyed. The other is your own interpretation of
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 5
what sex is all about. Sex is the logical extension of of any male to female
feeling I think. If you, if you stifle it, you become very frustrated. You don't
see too many black homosexuals walking the streets, you don't see too
many black kids masturbating. You don't see too many black kids walking
around totally hung up about sex. That doesn't happen in our culture. It
does happen in yours.
00:14:50
I had one time considered myself a member of the intelligentsia which was
a mistake, not because I'm not intelligent enough, because it--but because
the intelligence he has absolutely nothing to offer me. And a group of
friends and I, all nice middle-class white kids, you sit around and talk
about sex. All the time. Constantly. And I began to get you know 13, 14,
15, and so on that there was really no sense in talking about it. You know,
it's not something that you sit down and rap about. It's an active thing. It’s
a participation sport, not an observer sport, and not a commentator sport,
and this is the thing that you've made it. It's fine to talk about sex now, but
it's not alright to show you're feeling one person to another by indulging in
intercourse.
00:15:52
And I think it's far more dangerous if you don't. People keep talking about
the high illegitimacy rate among Black people, and these people come
from areas of town where they give abortions in every holiday station.1
You can't talk about an illegitimate child. There's no such thing as an
illegitimate human being. Illegitimacy is something that you punish. It's a
crime, something that you put people in jail for, and what the hell are you
going to do with this kid once he's had? Send him back? Out of the
question. So you have to start to redefine your terms. You have to start to
re-evaluate your entire moral system because it's the women that are
getting left up and they're beginning to get smart.
00:16:48
They're beginning to realize that, since historically that white man has
used that Black woman, they are now beginning to use that Black man
and paying for it. You'd be amazed at the number of your, probably some
of your classmates, who come down to Plymouth Avenue, get picked up
by a man, and get him all he wants, all the money, just to go to bed with
her every now and then. It says something about your system. It says a
great deal about the way you handle things because while the husband
may be over north, his wife could be someplace over south. So you're
1
Holiday was a gas station chain in the Twin Cities area.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 6
destroying yourself with this. Only in any system of false values, denying
everything that's basically human, and I think that that sex isn't something
you learn. You don't have instruction in it.
00:17:59
I think it's something basic to all human beings. I can't say that that I
blame the system of racism for your false views. But sexually, in regard to
the Black man, Black woman, it is racism combined with your values
they've kept this down in part for a long, long time.
00:18:33
[Ronald Palosaari] Yeah, um...as many have speculated, [inaudible] said
that I think the basic paty of thus analysis is right. I think that in our society
first by making the female Negro, Black, available to the white in the south
and there's some hangover in the north, that she became sexually
charged. And that the--as the white man divided women, because we
want--at the same time the male wants to put women on a pedestal, he
also wants to put them in bed. That's the two places, you see. And and the
white woman got on the pedestal and the Negro woman got into the bed,
you see, mentally.
00:19:15
Now, and of course since the Negro male was denied to the white female,
the Negro male got sexually charged with the racist attitude that here was
a person who was more close to being animal, more close to being beast,
he suggested the primitive nature of sex. Thus, in our society, I think both
the the black male and the black female are now sexually charged. I think
it's probably getting better, as things loosen, as things loosen up, but I
think the charge is both there. And with my suspicious mind, it seems
mean this is why these dark stockings are so terribly popular since they
suggest--as when I see a girl walking these dark stockings, they suggest
that she's white from the waist up and black from the waist down, you
know. Those of you who buy the stockings may disagree, [audience
laughs] but this is the way this is the way I happen to read it--as several
girls pull down there [audience laughs] Okay I'll turn it back to Mary.
00:20:18
[Mary Howard] I want to make two comments and then I'll throw it open to
questions. One of these is that you would have a task of finding a needle
in a haystack to find a black person, Lillian's pretty dark, but I dare say
she's not African, and I don't think Sumner is either, and I can't you know
just look. This is not all by virtue of miscegenation, as it's been called,
erroneously. It started out on the African slave ships coming over. And you
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 7
also know that you didn't come over and find us, and you know win the
war and bring us over. We sold ourselves to you. So we had a few of
these little problems before you got there. One tribe puts another tribe and
then they took that tribe down and posted them, you know, along the
coastline, well you want to buy? Here you are
00:21:19
The other thing is that, in terms of this development of the idea of the
Negro male being beautiful--and I know how I got on this panel, I made a
statement a couple years ago and somebody remembered it. Somebody
in the audience at one of these discussions of the film said, “well the
Negro male is such a beautiful sexual animal.” I said “That's a myth.” I
don't know about all of them [the audience laughs] But it kind of left that
taste. The idea was that you wanted good strong people to work in the
cotton fields, so how do you get them? You find a good strong Negro male
and you match him up. You use him just like you do with a horse, as a
stud. And the idea was perpetuated that, you know, they kept producing
these lovely strong babies and use them in the fields and the others they
put in the house.
00:22:15
And by the way those that were in the house, the Negro women--I happen
to prefer the word Negro, I don't know where it's going eventually, a
“person of color,” or anything else--those that were used in the house as
housemaids we're also used in the house as concubines. With the
knowledge, quite often, of the white female. And the children who were
produced--we developed a class society too, you know--the children that
were produced were of mixed color, lighter than the ones in the fields. And
the fathers, the master of the household, took an interest in these children
who were produced, and educated them. And those who were educated
among the Negroes became the landed gentry as such when slavery was
abolished on the books at least.
00:23:02
The others in the fields turned into the majority of the Negroes, and they're
the ones who are represented poor people, who remain the majority of
poor people. I am--I think the word “Negro” has to be defined as
representing anyone of mixed heritage with a darker hue then that
normally acquired through a suntan. If you go in the background of most of
the people who are of the Afro-american, Negro group, you'll find many
Indian ancestors, you'll find many North European ancestors, and you'll
find as many African ancestors.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 8
00:23:52
Okay, what are some of the questions that got raised? You nodded your
heads very nicely. Do you accept everything-- ah, yes.
00:24:00
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:24:38
[Lillian Anthony] I hope everybody heard him outside. Did all of you hear?
00:24:40
[Several audience members say no]
00:24:49
[Lillian Anthony] He said it so well. I would rather that he, um [there is
sound of movement, murmuring, and laughter in the audience]
00:25:00
[Audience member, who has gotten to the microphone] Second go-round,
it won’t be as good. I grew up in the South, and it took me a long time to
understand what was happening to people around me. And there was
something hysterical about the way they responded on the race issues,
my own friends that I met in school. And I started out with the initial
assumption that most [inaudible] were the result of something sexual
[inaudible] But anyway, with the Negro, the way I explained to myself was,
the reason they were scared and hysterical about integration was that it
was the promise of the end to a way of life. And this way of life was to live
loving oneself, and yet have the possibility Saturday night to get drunk and
go down to shantytown, go down to the black section and have a fling.
00:26:02
To be evil for a while and to step back into the beautiful world. And this to
me was why integration was such a threat and I was wondering if the
panel felt this was the case too.
00:26:26
[Lillian Anthony] I think what he has said gives some credence to my
assumption to the beginning of the whole business of the assumption of
Black being bad and evil and white being good and pure. And we all
recognize that we are a little bit of both. But then, it’s a pity that we cannot
get to the place where we can look at another human being and recognize
that what we enjoy with another human being does not necessarily have
to be a taste of evil or badness. But that this is a way to be more of a
human being.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 9
00:27:04
And I think this white male who has sought out the Black woman, I
certainly agree with everythings that he said. He said it very well. But here
is this white man who wants to be a human being, who want to enjoy a
complete sexual relationship. The pity is that he cannot enjoy that sexual
relationship with a caucasian female because of having put her on this
pedestal. Or that the female has not learned that she can also enjoy the
sexual life. And I--this is one of the things that the Black woman, those
that don’t have too many middle class hangups, does do. And I think that
this kind of abandonment that many of us have not been really taught.
00:28:00
And this is the only place, I don’t think you learn sex [inaudible] but I do
think we learn how to be emotional human beings. I do think that we learn
how to abandon ourselves. And I think, in going to shantytown, there was
great abandonment. Now, you come to some of our parties, there is great
abandonment. We laugh, we yell, the food is a part of it. There's great joy!
There’s great merriment. Now, we go to some of these white parties, and
everybody’s just kind of standing around [the audience laughs,
presumably because she has imitated what she saw] and all of these
intellectual hangups, and there is no abandonment. Now, we’re beginning
to sense a little bit with funky Broadway, and the new dances, there’s a
new kind of abandonment, which I think it's very healthy for all the groups
that are beginning to dance.
28:58
Did I respond, did you understand the way I’m responding, I’m agreeing
with what he’s saying and I’m trying to amplify it to say that you do have to
learn to feel and you do have to learn to respond appropriately to a sex
mate. Appropriately. And that was not an appropriate response, you see.
00:29:29
[Ron Palosaari] I agree fully. I'd like to raise just you know one very
complex question--
00:29:33
[Lillian Anthony] Oh, you can’t just do that. I just want to catch him on one.
[the audience laughs] I thought, I want to catch him. Now, why did you
constantly refer to adopting a “mixed racial” type. There I thought “now,
that’s his racism.” Because why should this child have to be mixed? Why
couldn’t this child be Black? Why couldn’t this child be from two Black
parents?
00:29:56
[Mary Howard] He can’t find them.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 10
00:29:57
[Lillian Anthony] Well, I don’t know about that. I just--but he stressed that.
You know, he stressed it. Each time. And so I’d like to know.
00:30:05
Well the--as I understand it, one thing to pass the buck, the welfare
department usually plays in an all caucasian home a mixed child rather
than a blank child. And since I know in part of white races having a mixed
child doesn’t make it any easier with in-laws and with other people.
The--we got a child that happened to be light [in skin tone] and I suppose
he'll face the problem of passing. You know, he can--he wants to call
himself Italian, with the last name of Palosaari, right [audience laughs]. A
kid, you know, if he has a racial hang-up and then he has that last name,
you know he's done. But our next child may be darker or not. And then it
just it just--the mixed racial amuses me, you see, because if someone
asks you expect to have problems, I usually say, well, since--since
Michael's biological mother was half Swedish, he probably will [audience
laughs]
00:31:08
But to raise problem which Miss Anthony's suggested, you know one thing
we don't know is how much, granted to the white middle class is a kind is
a kind of hung-up class, but how much this impulse control is not tied to
our economic kind of development. We have depended, in the Caucasian
race, we have dependent for a considerable amount of time for young
people putting off the fulfillment of their sexual drive and channeling that
into education or into hard work. The reason you're such good students
you see--well let’s not go into that-- [audience laughs], but this whole thing
of the middle class depending upon impulse control for economic
satisfaction is a very complex issue you know and I just wanted to suggest
it because it relates to this whole question of what kind of lifestyle should
one have.
00:32:03
And I don't think that when we talk about a free emotional lifestyle, we
mean laying everybody, but I rather think it is a quality of life that really
can vary a great deal as to how the individual approaches it. But still,
there's a freedom which is a kind of, I think, an ideal. [long pause] I never
worked at all [audience laughs], and I've never changed that. I went into
teaching because it’s the easiest possible thing I could think of [audience
laughs].
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 11
00:32:36
[Sumner Jones] I think that your answer, the conclusion that you came to,
is a good explanation, but I think realistically it's probably only part what's
really going on. I can't imagine the fear of Black peoples to be one that is
only sexual. There is the fear of our grieving revenge upon you for all the
things you have done to us in the past. It’s a good excuse, to say “I don't
want this guy living next door to me, because I know damn well that, come
sundown, he's gonna sneak into my daughter's bedroom window.” I think
that the sexual thing is convenient. No longer can they call us animals,
because proportionately, we’re the most educated people in the country.
We don’t stop at bachelor’s degrees, we go all the way. And then you get
that job down at the post office with three or four PhD.s. [audience laughs]
This gives us, really, a great deal of insight into mail delivery. [audience
laughs]
00:34:16
So I think that that is what we're dealing with the total dehumanization of
Black people over the past, what maybe sixteen, eleven [inaudible] when
we first came here, it was ten. And we’re trying to fight back. Radically
adjust people’s sexual attitudes. So I don’t think that you’re afraid of
[inaudible] you’re more worried about losing. It’s a place to go to. They can
always [inaudible] Prostitution is the oldest profession in the world.
Whenever a woman wanted something of a man she knew damn well how
to get it. And what prostitutes stay [inaudible] it’s a very small price to pay
for your neighbor’s [inaudible] any other way.
00:35:13
I don't think they're worried about losing prostitutes. They're more
worried--they're just using that as an excuse, because they've got a
conception of [inaudible] And they just don't want us near him, for any
reason, because we're inhuman and sex is the way to be human.
00:35:44
[Audience member asks an inaudible question. Dr. Howard begins to
answer it away from the microphone before switching over to the
microphone when someone asks her to]
00:36:40
[Mary Howard] --huh? Oh, okay--the pigmentation in the skin enabled
them to withstand it. All right now, here's a nice situation we want to keep
it this way, because it's economically necessary. Now, we have to build up
a set of myths so that we can maintain the situation as it is. One of the
things we have to do is break down any culture, so the only place in which
the slaves could congregate was in the church. And we tell them that, you
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 12
know, “there will be a better world next time, you should sing, and relax
and enjoy yourself, and be free in the church under God, et cetera.” And
this is where this abandonment idea was based, also. Right in the church.
This was the only time--you go to church on Sunday mornings to Sunday
night lots of poor people do that too, by the way.
00:37:31
The rural community did it, the poor people still do it, and church starts at
10:00 in the morning or 9:00 in the morning with prayers et cetera, and
ends at 4:00 in the afternoon for dinner, or supper, or in time to get home.
The idea of miscegenation grew up as a protection; “we have to keep
separate races.” If white and Negro marry, or white and African marry, or
white and African cohabitate, then there will be a decrease in intelligence
and strength, increase in diseases et cetera. Most of the diseases that we
have, we got from you. This has, there's an idea that I have--I don't know
how good it is, we probably lost a lot of it--but I think on the whole that the
health of the Negro is pretty darn good because the only ones who could
survive getting over here on the slave ships were adaptable and were
strong.
00:38:30
Otherwise we would have long since died out. We’d never have made it to
the fields. Now, over the period of time since we have intermarried or
quote “intermarried by accident,” we may have lost a lot of this strength
and I think this another point, but the whole thing is that most of the ideas
of all of the ideas that have supported racism I have been a matter of
necessity in order to maintain the economy. And all we're trying to do now
is get some facts inserted into the mythology and get rid of the myth.
00:39:06
Are you going to sit there quietly and take everything we have to say?
Yes? [she laughs]
00:39:12
[Audience member asks an inaudible question]
00:39:39
[Sumner Jones] It is. It's been substantiated by studies. Masturbation is
just sort of a mechanical outlet for a sexual drive. Homosexuality is
something that I don't really understand, but it's been explained to me as a
rejection of one sex because of various things. The way you've been
taught: to view females, the sexual act with females, so you've got no
recourse. You know, there are only two sexes [he laughs] You've already
eliminated one, you've got to turn to the other. So that's homosexuality. I
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 13
at one time, when I was studying biology, I thought that people were
taught to be heterosexual, but you aren’t. It's a basic instinct.
Heterosexuality is basic to all animals. Thank goodness.
00:41:07
[Presumably, the audience member responds, but it is inaudible]
00:41:15
[Sumner Jones] Which which breeds homosexuality and masturbation and
sexual perversion. Yeah [presumably talking with the audience member]
That's exactly what I'm saying. In our culture, we face sex for what it is.
Puberty, that time when young men climb trees and young women dig
holes in the ground and things. In your society, it’s a very trying time. I
went to a predominantly white high school, you could almost call it all
white, and went to some parties during the time I was becoming sexually
aware, or aware of my sexuality. And they put us like in a basement from
8:00 to midnight with a candle going, and the mother would come down
every now and then and check on us bringing us cookies. And at midnight,
after we were all aroused, really sexually aroused, speaking of sexual
charging man, I had enough to start a semi-truck. [audience laughs]
00:42:41
And then they sent us home! Say “good night,” shake hands with you
partner and go on your lonely way. Now, what happens during puberty is:
puberty is the time where parents consider the fact that their child is
growing up, so they provide them with all sorts of things, like the dark
basements, and and like the perks. But, man, there ain't a cot in sight. You
reach a certain point, and then it's cut off. Now, that's bound to cause
some sort of frustration. I'm advocating honesty. I'm advocating you know
everybody to his own thing. You know, at their own particular time. I'm
advocating reality which isn't necessarily free love. I haven’t, I never
understood the concept of “free love.” It seemed to me, you know,
outlawing prostitution, and making them go out there for nothing. That's
about as close as I ever came to explaining free love.
00:44:03
But I think what's happening now is a denial of human sexuality, which
can't possibly be healthy.
00:44:17
[Lillian Anthony] I am not sure that I can really help you, but I, in trying to
understand some of these things have read several books and some
excellent books. Theodore Wright, one is called “Love and Lust.” Seven
hundred and some pages, but he attempts in this book to explain how in
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 14
puberty, the male child relates to the mother. Example: here you have
been coddled by the mother, you’ve been loved by her, all this--you know
all that. And then, suddenly you’re told,that you can no longer relate that
way to your mother. And so this brings a lot of hangups. Now, in the Black
community, then how is this different? That's what you're really asking.
00:45:05
Well I think that there's several things that are different in the Black
community. One is that both mother and father usually have to work to
sustain the family. Or there are enough siblings in the family so there is
not this overemphasis in terms of coddling and holding,and therefore the
child then can relate more to others. So I don’t think that many of the
Black children come up having sexual, actual sexual intercourse, and
sooner than Caucasian children. I think their mental psyche about it is not
mystical. It’s a thing. You know, everybody knows it goes on.
00:45:53
I remember when I was 11 years old, I came home from school, and I just
said to mom “You know, I don’t understand what the kids are talking
about.” We were sitting on the curb today, and I was talking to these girls
and they started talking about menstruation,” and my father dropped a
spoon. [the audience laughs] And he said--cause we always had found
council around the table. And daddy dropped his spoon. I thought “Uh-oh.
[audience laughs] This is a thing.” So then we--mama said “well, we'll talk
about it later.” Well then my little brother, who's six years younger, said
“why can't we talk about it now?” And then my sister said “yeah, what is
that word you used?” So right there, we started dealing with it at the table.
And then we continued. And all with my father when the whole biological
process came from me, it was my father who was the one who was able to
do this.
00:46:48
Now I think, because we don't have all of these sophisticated standards to
go by, then we I think are--this abandonment, this freedom, is intrinsic in
our culture, you see. That--and I know--it's hard for me to gey this over to
you--
00:47:05
[The audience member responds, but it is inaudible]
00:47:18:
[Lillian Anthony] It may be. I wouldn’t say “lower class,” I’m changing my
vocabulary and hope you would be able to change yours. In terms of the
economic base, people who have less money, then I think find more
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 15
ingenious ways to have entertainment. You know we have great
[inaudible] parties, great food parties, great record parties, great
joke-sharing parties, cause we cannot afford to go--huh?
00:47:48
[Someone, presumably on the panel, says something that is inaudible]
00:47:49
[Lillian Anthony] Yeah, huh! [She laughs] The whole business [she laughs]
we didn’t have the money to go to the night clubs, and all of these other
things. So I think we had to be a little more ingenious about how we
enjoyed ourselves. And I think we were more communal in family and in
community.
00:48:08
[Sumner Jones] When you’re talking about standards for Blacks, you’re
automatically talking about standards for what you consider low-income
whites because we live so closely together. I mean, a ghetto, a Black
community is simply a community that, whose life result revolves around
Black culture, which includes whites, see, because you won't let them live
with you out in Edina because they can't afford to. So they live with us in
North Minneapolis and Harlem. And our values are the same. So when
we're talking about only Black people, we're talking about
Mexican-Americans whoever else happens to be poor.
00:48:55
[Someone responds but they are inaudible]
00:49:00
[Sumner jones] Oh, yeah! Yeah, sure they would.
00:49:03
[Someone responds but they are inaudible]
00:49:10
It, it is! From the outset, you see. What happens is that we get hung up in
this striving thing, the same as all of you students do. And the only way we
can prove to you that we are strivers is by accepting all your values. Never
eat watermelon. Never. [audience laughs]. Never go to bed with anyone.
And deny, personally, all of the myths that that have been created about
Black people. So it's on an individual level that this thing occurs, but the
mass of Black people accept black culture. The majority, simply because
we have no choice. And those of us who do have a choice and recognize
the choice, realize what each culture is all about tend to go back. Because
it's more honest there.
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:50:11
[Ron Palosaari] Yeah, I just want to emphasize the fact that there's an
economic explanation for many of these things. At least, people in this
kind of economic group tend to behave in this kind of way. And I don't
think it I don't this--it’s necessarily a racial thing at all, but when you have a
Negro subculture then you have certain patterns. But one thing's kinda
bothers me as a middle class white--I hope this this isn't a thing, but--I'm
not so sure that masturbation is all that bad, you know. I don't you should
hold it up as a kind of a kind of perversion. And the the incident of
masturbation is so terribly high among among unmarried males who are
not having intercourse of both lower class, and middle class, and upper
class that it really doesn't, you know--when we get into that kind of statistic
it's not worth getting excited about.
00:50:55
And you certainly, I mean we all know too that we certainly have Negro
homosexuals as well as white homosexuals, that's not, that's that's not a
race thing to0. But it is it is a thing oftentimes related to the kind of the kind
of family, and there's a word which is used for Negro class, middle class
Negroes, in some places which is “strainers.” You know, they're kind of
straining to stay up in the middle class. And I kind of laugh out in the
suburbs, because I have a Negro friend up there who has to keep his lawn
in great shape, and when I go off and play golf and tennis I always look at
him out there sweating on that lawn, you know [panelists laugh] They, and
hope the kids have [inaudible] some way by the time I get back.
00:51:40
[Inaudible response from an audience member]
00:52:09
[Mary Howard] See, we were taught that it was right because this was
later reproduce so we could be more available as slaves.
00:52:17
[Inaudible response from an audience member]
00:52:44
[Mary Howard] It's interesting when the Catholic Church changes the tone,
everybody changes [she laughs] and it's definitely changed tone. I would
like to make a comment regarding his point. We're talking about racism,
now. It does apply economically across the board to all poor people and
the majority of Negroes are poor, so we're talking about the poor man in
general when we talk about the Negro with most of the things applying
across the board. But we are a defined group, and we have certain
self-interest right now, so we have to be talking about us. The March to
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 17
Washington, that is called the “Poor People's March,” though it's not called
the Negro’s March. And there are some whites in that March. They talk
about guaranteed annual income. The impetus came from our big push in
the 1950s and still going on. A lot of people got benefit, the middle class
got a benefit, as well as the poor class, as well as the Negro.
00:53:44
From what's going on right now, we're busy trying to get the Indians to join
us, and they looked down their noses at us for a long time. And now, one
by one, they're getting in on the group, you know. Because it's
becoming...what? Profitable. And not just the economic sense, but
profitable to be identified because we're bigger and we can do a little
more, so they join in and and benefit as well. Yeah?
00:54:10
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:55:27
[Sumner Jones] It still applies. It doesn't really matter who you’re going to
shag with, if you happen to get it wrong. It's it's interesting what's
happened. As you people start waking up to sex, and you have. Your
parents make available to you, if they find that you insist on being a sexual
animal, they make available to you all sorts of contraceptive devices. All
sorts of birth control pills, that sort of thing. So we're wondering what's
really wrong now. Is it wrong to have a kid, or is it wrong to go to bed with
somebody? And, if we find that it's wrong to have a kid, then it definitely is
wrong to go to bed with somebody, because that's what it's all about.
00:56:30
I've known several girls on Plymouth that have had kids without being
married. And the proudest person is that father. Not only as a matter of
egotism, in that he sees a part of himself, but that is his son. And he goes
places with his son. I don't care if the guy is only 18 years old, he takes
care of that boy, if he has a chance, or that girl. Whereas, I've seen guys
that have been in the same position. White guys from from middle-class
families, and all of that, and they deny it. You know, “that's not my kid. I’ve
never had a kid in my whole life.” Of course, I'm making general
statements because that's the only way you can talk about a group.
00:57:29
[Lillian Anthony]--which I am going to use, and one is the whole business
of illegitimacy. I thought it was a very beautiful statement and the analogy
he made, about what the word “illegitimate” means. And then you
mentioned dehumanization. They go hand in hand. And I think the
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 18
way--I’m really beginning to realize that semantics are a real hangup for
us. That when we say “this is an illegitimate child,” we then are taking
away the humanity of the child. And that’s why that child who’s Black who
has the illegitimate child, the child out of wedlock, can still be loved by the
parents when they bring the child into the way I want to hold it. And she
tells me “you know, I’ve learned not to ask stupid questions, like who is the
father” or something like that. But we all love that child and I think that’s
what I’m trying to say, trying to have humanity. And I think this is a great
thing that Black people have to give to the world. And colored peoples, I
don’t know about other ethnic or racial groups in terms of what they do
with their child.
00:58:47
What they’re really [inaudible] adoption happened to me when I was in
New York last year, a couple adopted a child. And this child was brown,
but the child had been born of a Jewish young girl. And the family was
willing to take that child, and they had taken the child into the home. And
then, as the child--you know, often when we are born, we are much fairer
in complexion. Then the child’s complexion began to change, so when the
child became six months old, they began to accuse her of having had an
affair with an Afro-American. And she, to this day, says that she did not.
So it’s quite common. Because it could have been in the family, you see.
So, again, what difference did it make what color the child was, this is a
little human being! These are the kinds of complex things which you have
got to get in trouble with. I saw a free hand, over there, yeah.
01:00:01
[The recording cuts off at this point]
“Sex and Racism” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 19
Show less
Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0363
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commis... Show more
Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0363
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commission; Sumner Jones, a staff member at The Way; Dr. Ronald Palosaari; Ellen
O'Neill, staff TCOIC; Joe O'Neill, staff TCOIC; and Dr. Mary Howard discuss issues of
sex and racism in an afternoon panel at Augsburg College, now Augsburg University, in
Minneapolis. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of
racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:59:54
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Mary Howard] [The recording cuts in as Howard is speaking] --here you're
in the right place, this is the sex and racism one. Wonder what you heard
about this morning’s session [laughter]. I will introduce the panel. We don't
have Gwen Jones-Davis, whom we'd hope to have, she's quite ill and
could not come. We have--Lilllian Anthony, was kind enough to remain for
the morning session, had to leave for this afternoon, so as sex is often
improvised, the panel is currently improvised. I am Mary Howard, on the
faculty here in psychology. That's not the reason I was chosen for this
panel, I have a suspicion it's because of an error I made a couple of years
ago, in response to a statement, some of you know about it, I won't repeat
it.
00:00:47
Sumner Jones on the staff at The Way, Ron Palosaari, English
department here at Augsburg, Ellen O'Neill, staff TCOIC, and Joe O'Neill,
staff TCOIC. I was trying to decide how to start this, this morning Lillian
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 1
Anthony kind of took it over and went ahead. I'm going to make a brief
introduction and then, I know I think at that point turn it over to Ron to
make a statement and to Sumner to make a statement. Joe and Ellen said
that they did not come prepared to make a statement but will instead
discuss. Can you hear me without the mic? You're frowning.
00:01:31
Can you hear, anybody can't hear me back there? Okay.
00:01:36
[Unidentified panelist] How can you tell?
00:01:36
[Mary Howard] Well I don't know, if they can't hear me then, maybe they'd
raise their hands and frown. I was sort of curious as to why we had a
panel with this title, and several people raised the question after the
session this morning, and also before the session. I thought about it a little
bit. I think it's appropriate. I think it's particularly appropriate because,
though not the reason for racism insofar as the thinking person is
concerned, it is the reason for racism so far as the average person is
concerned. And on the basis of a number of myths, and myths are usually
built on a tiny amount of fact, and a great deal of intention with purpose.
00:02:25
The myth of sex as attached to racism developed during slavery times as
a means of supporting the economy and was done very, very successfully.
A few of the myths that I think are particularly pertinent to this topic, and I
will give some of the facts and some of them you will want to raise
questions about, they're old. And I'm sure you know better, but I'm going
to call them to your attention because even though you may know some of
these things you don't stop to think about them. One of them is that the
Negro is anatomically and physiologically different. That was exploited
during World War Two. French people ran around and looked for the tails
on Negro males and they didn't find them, most people know better now.
00:03:15
Secondly, that the Negro is particularly vigorous. As Edgar Pillow pointed
out this morning, the majority of the Negroes are poor, and poor people,
the majority of the poor people are sick, weak, tired, and generally not
vigorous. However, there are a few things that do support the idea that the
Negro is fairly strong and adaptable, one of them being that he simply has
survived all of the many indignities to which he has been subjected from
the time he came over on the slave ship until now and he's still here, and
in fact is growing in terms of numbers. Third that the Negro is happy, that's
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 2
a stupid idea. No one who is poor, unhealthy, forced to be subjugated to
someone else, is happy. He may put on a happy face for you because it's
unsafe for you to know him if he's in a weak position. You defend yourself
by not letting other people know too much about you. It's only in the last
ten years that you've gotten to know the Negro, and you were possibly
aware of that.
00:04:23
We've known you for a very, very long time, because it was necessary to
our survival to know you, and we've known from your kitchens through
your living rooms and many of you have never been in the homes of a
Negro, and this has been true over the years. Fourth, the Negro is
irresponsible. The males could not get jobs for years, as such could not
support their families, and as frustrated individuals will do, they leave the
situation. There was a precedent for this in the sense that during slavery
times, the Negro, married Negro, had no rights whatsoever insofar as his
family was concerned. He was simply sold out. If it was convenient to sell
the children, they did so and left the husband and wife there. If it was
convenient to sell the wife, they did so and left the father and the children
there, or whatever situation. Usually the children went with the mother.
00:05:18
This precedent was set for the Negro family, that marriage really had no
meaning for the family. Furthermore, the mothers generally took very good
care of their children and still do. This is a tradition among the poor
people. They take as good of care of their families as they possibly can
and unlike the wealthy person, they do not leave their children to the care
of other people. They may not be able to stay there all day because
they're out working, but when they come home they are there with their
own children. Another myth, that the Negroes represent a race. There is
only one race, period. Another one, that if you're light, that if you have a lot
of white blood, that you are more intelligent. A book was published even to
that effect two years ago by a South Carolinian psychologist, he proved it
by his test.
00:06:21
You can prove lots of things with statistics if you twist them and he did a
very good job of it. The fact that there were more Negroes who were in,
who were educated and who did have reasonably decent jobs occurred
because during slavery times those who were misceginated, if you like the
term, were also the ones who were educated by their white fathers, and a
social class grew up within the Negroes that was built on color. And one of
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 3
the things that disgusted me when I was a child was the Society of the
Blue Vein, and if you could see the blue vein in your arm, you belong to
the elect group. I happen to be able to see the blue vein in my arm, and I
rejected that group because I thought it was one of the most silly things,
even at age ten, that I'd ever heard. And finally, that the Negro women are
morally free. I have been accosted on the street by strangers, and
propositioned. One time by a policeman, in a police car cruising down the
street, in the middle of downtown Birmingham.
00:07:33
I am so constricted, I make myself sick, it would never dawn on me to flirt
with anyone. I was propositioned by the policeman. Another time, I was
propositioned by a person walking down the street when I was on my way
home from work, after dark. I have never been propositioned by a Negro
male stranger. I wonder who's morally free? In Alabama, there is a sheriff
of a small town, a white sheriff, who is "married", with quotation marks, to
a Negro. He acknowledges her as his wife, acknowledges the children as
his children, and they attend the white school, and no one makes any
remarks about her. He cannot, could not, at that time--and I don't know
whether the law has changed in the last two years or not--could not marry
her in--legally, because legal marriages were not possible in Alabama and
I think this is still so. I have two white female friends there who are married
to Negro males, and they simply designate themselves as Negroes.
Alright? With those comments, I will turn it over to Ron Palosaari.
00:08:51
[Ron Palosaari] I feel like an anti-climax, no pun intended. [Laughter]. How
many of you were here this morning, because I don't want to make the
same--not too many. I hate making you identify yourself, but I'll make, I'll
make a little bit of the same pitch then. Last summer, I have two daughters
and a son and my four-year-old daughter was outside playing with my
two-year-old son, and a neighbor wandered by and said to my daughter:
"My, your brother has a nice tan, doesn't he?" and my daughter, indignant
that she had not gotten any praises, "Yes, but he's Negro, you know, and
they are darker." We decided, after we had adopted two Caucasians, and
talked about a mixed-racial child for a long time, to adopt Michael, and
soon Mike will be joined by his brother who we have not yet seen but are
told is coming.
00:09:51
And so, I'd like to just mention the situation of interracial adoption. We did
not adopt Michael because we thought that we could give him the greatest
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 4
life in the world. Obviously, being my son, you know, he's exposed to me
twenty-four hours a day is not the greatest situation you can imagine, but
we adopted Michael because we thought not only could we provide a
home for a child who needed an adoption, as adoptive children do, but it
also would be a healthy and good experience for my two Caucasian
daughters. It would be, it would be, and it has been a good experience for
us, because Michael has given to us far more than we will ever give to
him. But we, of course, I think like most people who have ever adopted a
mixed-racial child are little bit frightened about the future. We want
Michael to be proud of both his white heritage and his Black heritage, or
Negro heritage depending on which word you prefer right now, and this is
going to be hard, because we know that he's going to hate- he's going to
face hatred, stupidity, meanness of various kinds.
00:10:54
And, of course, the tension will probably come, really will get probably
tough when he gets into high school or college, because this is when the
question of sex and racism will most obviously appear. What will we tell
Michael to do about dating? Well our choice, which we talked about
before, is Michael you know can date any girl he's brave enough to ask
out you see- whether she know what, no matter what shade of color she is
race, creed, or any other religion, any other thing like that, and the same
goes for marriage. Some people have suggested, usually not directly to
us, well if a child is Negro, partly Negro, why shouldn't the Negroes adopt
him? Well, for one thing, it is the whites in our society, in our unjust
society, who can afford the adoptions. And I would ask you today why
don't you right now consider, when you get married, most of you are only a
few years from prime breeding time [laughs], when when you get--when
you get married rather than just populate the Earth with others like you
and contribute to the population explosion.
00:11:51
After you've had a child or two naturally, or even before, why not consider
adoption, and if you consider adoption, why not consider racially mixed
children because then as now there will probably more of them than there
are homes to receive them, and these kids need homes. There's over
thirty children, racially mixed children, in Minneapolis right now who could
go into homes if the homes were available, and the only reason they're
being kept out is because of the prejudice of our society. Think about it.
There are families in our town now who have, who even though they could
have natural children have adopted racially mixed children because they
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 5
felt that they were in a sense contributing more to life by having this kind
of family than the one which is in greater vogue in our society. It's
something to think about. But it's very curious to us, as we see Michael
around our house, and he doesn't have any special problems that we can
think of now, except, you know, normal problems for two-year-olds, that
some day some father is going to say ‘well that Black bastard isn't going to
date my daughter.’
00:12:55
Michael happens to be, you know, light brown, but he'll be called that I
suppose, you see, and this will involve us right in. What is there about
Michael that is going to frighten some parents so much that they, before
they ever know him, will say I don't want him to date my daughter. This is
the whole question of race and sex in our society which my child is going
to be a part of, and I'll turn it over to Sumner now for one view on what the
situation is - why it is something like this.
00:13:27
[Long Pause with sounds of microphone adjustments]
00:13:45
[Sumner Jones] I think it's time that we begin to blame the irresponsible
actions of any society with each and every individual member of that
society. We have to blame all of Germany, including the Jews, for
Auschwitz, we've got to blame the entirety of Western Europe for the
predicament that the American Indian is in. In the same sense, we have to
blame the entire world for that institution of slavery which resulted in the
ultimate, total dehumanization of Black people in this country and other
countries. This brings it down to a personal level, and we talked a great
deal about sex this morning, and I imagine that's why most of you are here
because you heard, man, it was pretty racy discussion going on in that
group. I'd like to concentrate more on the racism aspect of it now because
that's something that you people can do something about.
00:15:03
You don't recognize the fact that you, as college students, are perhaps the
most powerful group of people in the country. Most of you are old enough
to vote, all of you are old enough to demonstrate. I say that you carry this
power because you're the, you're the good people, you're the strivers.
You're going after what the society says you should have using the tools
that the society says you should use to get it. So nobody's gonna disagree
with you. If you people say that the society has to change and you say it
convincingly enough you can bet that the society will change. But it's
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 6
interesting that those who recognize most the need for change in the
society tend to rather drop out from it then stay in it and work.
00:16:09
It isn't through dropping out that we'll accomplish anything, nothing at all,
but rather by plunging into the world, by getting our hands dirty, by
working and working like hell, admittedly, to change things. You are the
people that have to put pressure on the trade unions. It won't mean much
coming from me. You're the people that put pressure on the police force.
It's obvious that they aren't going to listen to me. So you see what I mean
you are the people that can change things, but you're operating from
basically racist point of view, every one you. The saddest thing about it is
that when people tell you that you're racist, you get up in arms and say
‘man, I'm not a racist, don't believe it. Never have, never will.’
00:17:09
I contend that you are because you cannot help being anything else, in a
society that governs every institution the way as this society does, the
racism is bound to show up and it's bound to show up in the products of
that institution, education. What we mistakenly call education is actually
social training. You get one side of history. That side is naturally distorted
because you're leaving the other side out, you can't possibly know the
truth about your own history unless you know the history and the truth
about the history of related peoples and nobody could tell me that black
and white people in this country haven't been related.
00:17:59
The relation admittedly has been one of oppressed to oppressor but that
relationship says a great deal and it shapes the history. We haven't talked
about it, we haven't talked about it honestly. We run around thinking that
George Washington was a great man, fantastic man, fought the - fought
for freedom on all levels while he held 42 slaves. We call Abraham Lincoln
the great emancipator. You have to realize that Lincoln was only human.
I'm sorry to destroy any myths that you may have built up. I hope you don't
cry yourself to sleep tonight over the fact that Lincoln was indeed human
and necessarily a product of his times. He himself said in a letter to
Horace Greeley that what he was concerned with was saving the Union.
00:19:00
If he could do that by freeing half the slaves he would, if he could do it by
not freeing any of the slaves, well then, he’d do it too, but to him, the Black
people would always be second-class citizens. That's understandable,
because he was dealing from that orientation in the society and I think that
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 7
we've perpetuated it just about long enough. We're waking up to the fact,
or some of us are, that black people are like any other people. We're
good, we're bad, we're beautiful and we're ugly, just like you. We aren't
asking anybody to distort history in our favor. We can't do that otherwise
we'd be just as bad as the people that wrote the history before. What
we're asking for is the truth.
00:20:07
What determines a person's humanity today is in large part what he did
yesterday. You recognize a person is human in relation to what group he
comes from in correlation to what you know about that group and you
know damn little about my group. You know certain things for facts, made
a hell a lot of watermelon and I'm congenitally happy but in fact there's
nothing for me to be happy about. I sing songs and dance and try to get
into every white woman the bed that I see. These are myths.
00:21:00
Myths that were necessarily initiated but foolishly perpetrated-perpetuated--because at the time of slavery, you had to have some sort of
rationale for doing what you were doing. So you said: ‘okay, these are
subhuman beings so we can do anything we damn please to them.’ But
somewhere along the line, we became human beings as individuals, still
not as a group, we haven't reached that status as a group yet, but you
begin to see individuals within that group who did have certain human
characteristics. We cried when you hit us, we laughed when you tickled
us, we even fell in love. All that, all that which you consider human.
00:22:04
So we acquired as a group a sort of three-fifths human status, and you
realized that you no longer do this sort of thing to us, so you didn't enslave
us physically anymore, the mental chains are still there however. Chains
were put there intentionally. Berlin Conference 1885, I think, where the
major powers of Europe were splitting up the continent of Africa. They
decided that no African history would be taught except in relation to Egypt
and Egypt only as it related to the building of the Greek and Roman
empires, you can't possibly talk about the Greek and Roman Empire
without talking about Egypt, anybody that's taken history knows that.
Anybody who's taken history ought to know that you can't possibly talk
about civilization on any level without talking about the primary civilizations
in the Nile Valley.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 8
00:23:11
You've got to go back all the way. England didn't just spring up overnight.
It has, it had its predecessors and you know nothing about it. I think
education is the key. More specifically, I think that Afro-American history is
the key to solving many of the problems that we have now, and you're the
people that can get it into the curriculum not only at this school but every
school in the state. I'd like to see it in every school in the country, but I'm
no dreamer. I'm at least realistic enough to realize that not every state is
going to allow this. Frankly, I'd be very surprised if Minnesota did.
00:24:11
But as I said, you people do have a great deal of power and you're
wasting it. I ran into a--not really a friend, but a guy who went to high
school with, and my high school was so small that I couldn't help noticing
him every day. He said he'd really like to get involved. I said ‘good.’ He
said ‘but it'd have to be next fall, because I'm traveling this summer.’
Where are your priorities? Travel if you wish. If things go on the way they
are going on one summer, you may travel and not have a place to come
home to. Because we're tired of talking.
00:25:14
[Long Pause]
00:25:18
And we're dealing with what is a revolutionary question. The answers are
actually in history. History has been distorted so we can't see them there.
History at best is not what went on, but what we think went on. With the
form of history that we teach is a form that that portrays what we wish had
gone on, which seems to me to be a supreme insult to the intelligence of
every single one of us that are taking it, except we're conditioned to take
that sort of insult. Realize your own worth as individuals and you won’t be
able to. Go into history classes and laugh at your professors because
they're telling you totally ridiculous things.
00:26:31
Ask them, ask them what happened to all the Black people during the two
hundred years that cowboys were roaming around. What happened to
them? Put him on a boat and go back to Africa? No, they were there. I
once saw Sammy Davis doing an impression of a cowboy. Thought it was
the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Man, yeah a big white hat on and two
guns and was walking bowlegged, and all that I just fell out laughing,
called people ‘hey man, look at this! This n****** thinks he's a cowboy.’
Well it's true. The Black people made up the main body of what you call
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 9
the cowboys and the really bad cats, I mean the mean ones you never
heard of.
00:27:25
We were cowboys. Not only did we - we fought Indians, we rode with
Sitting Bull, we helped capture Sitting Bull, we played a very important role
when building this country, and I don't mean only physically. I don't mean
that we just built the houses. We built the heritage of what is now America,
and sometimes I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true. We're the people that
you're talking about when you talk about the people that persevered, that's
us. Because there's no more persevering group of people in this country.
We've been here fourteen straight generations, almost one hundred
percent American born and there's no other group like that but in every
single one of your stupid wars, everyone of them and right now the
frontlines of Vietnam look like the football team from Howard University.
00:28:41
We've died for you, we've fought for you, we've sweated for you and got
nothing in return. I've been operating under the mistaken assumption that
we have some sort of legitimate responsibility to this country but we can't
possibly have a responsibility in this country because we don't see
ourselves reflected in it anywhere, not in the political system, and certainly
not in its history, so we can't feel like we're a part of it. The only way we
see ourselves reflected is in the myths, the sexual myths and the others,
the stereotypes, Amos 'n' Andy--Amos 'n' Andy isn't me. That's about all I
have to say.
00:29:30
[Mary Howard] [Laughing] I don't think it's really all he has to say, and
there will be--I want to leave time for questions, I don't know, this morning
it was rather quiet. You've had time to think it over, so we'd like to hear
about it this afternoon. I'm sure you don't agree with all of us. I'll give you
one fact that perhaps we'll eventually get in history books. In Virginia,
Nevada, one of the best divorce areas in the country, outside of Alabama,
you can run in there, and stay for a few days and get a divorce, there is a
monument to a person known as Bloody Mary.
00:30:08
Bloody Mary ran a house of prostitution, she was one of the richest
women in Virginia Minn- Virginia, [laughs] Nevada, [clears money] I don't
know about Virginia, Minnesota. A lot of the money that she made went
into building of San Francisco and nobody knows about her unless you
happen to go to Virginia, Nevada it's - right a few miles outside of Reno. I
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 10
have an announcement to make: Dudley Riggs Brave New Workshop will
present a one-half hour specially written drama for our One Day in May in
Melby Hall at 4:30. There is no charge. The evening session with Milt
Williams1 will begin at 6:30 and held in the College Center Lobby.
00:30:50
Now, Ellen said initially that she didn't want to say anything except in
response to questions and we pumped her now, or primed her or
something and she wants to make a few comments before we open it up
to you, ok?
00:31:05
[Ellen O’Neil] I wanted to go back to some of the comments that Mr.
Palosaari had made, and this is one very basic area in the area of
attitudes. And he talked about his youngster who would perhaps be facing
many attitudes when he got to the teenage years of dating and courtship
and this kind of thing. You know, I think one of the big test questions in our
society is: would you want your daughter to marry one and this always
comes up in most conversations that, you know, you'll be involved with
and I think because of this we structure our society in in a way that it
makes it very unlikely that little Johnny who happens to be Black and little
Mary who happens to be white will ever get together and so that this - this
type of thing, this fear of any kind of interracial communication, I think, has
a great deal to do with the way we see our society structured.
00:32:12
As far as attitudes are concerned. Now I happen to be married to a man
who happens to be Black, and so you find yourself constantly being
confronted with all kinds of attitudes. They may not be overt like bricks
crashing through the window or anything, you know spectacular like this,
but they're very subtle, condescending, patronizing kinds of things that I'd
like to share with you. You perhaps have had these kinds of reactions or
have seen these kinds of things happen. Of course, the first question that
anybody will want to know was ‘how did you two ever get together?’ You
know this is a real puzzling kind of question it seemed, ‘you know, a nice
girl like you’ I had people say to me and this is a common response.
00:33:06
Another thing is "oh, but the children" and I'm sure you've all heard this.
Well, in this society of ours, if you're one thirty-secondth of a Black man,
you're considered a Black man in the society, so it really doesn't make any
difference, the child is Black as far as our society is concerned, so that
1
The former name of Mahmoud El-Kati
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 11
usually takes care of that question. Another interesting kind of thing that
you get are the curiosity seekers and you get many invitations to dinner,
you know, and they want to see how you act and how you eat and, you
know, if you're just like they are and so it goes.
00:33:52
Another thing, you are identified as a Black person. For instance, the other
evening I was talking to someone about politics and we were discussing
the candidates, and he immediately said: "Oh no, you couldn't be for
McCarthy, because Negroes don't like McCarthy." So this is another bag
that people fall into. So, as I said they're very subtle but the disaster about
them is that they don't respect you as an individual and look at you as a
person you know. You're this type of person or you're treated in a special
way, and you know it just makes it all worse and another thing
stereotypes, you know the girl who happens to marry a black man, well
there's there's a whole list and I'm sure you're pretty much aware of them.
She has to be a beatnik, or a neurotic, or someone with loose morals, or
all sorts of things that people are hung up about. So, I just wanted to throw
these things out to you and maybe we can get some response.
00:35:06
[Mary Howard] One more comment [laughs] I'm sorry about that. Not
directly on sex and racism, but have you ever thought about the fact that
it's peculiar that the white person has been so weak and so incapable of
thinking for himself that laws had to be set up to protect him from the
Negro, i.e. you may not go to school with the Negroes, you may not eat in
their restaurants, you may not do this, that or the other--not to protect us,
nobody thought about us, but to protect the white person? It was
necessary to set up these laws? Comments? Questions, reactions, to the
panel? Yes I think [inaudible] was up first, no status involved here.
00:35:55
[Inaudible question from the audience that gets interrupted]
00:35:57
[Mary Howard] One of the problems we have was that the questions could
not be heard earlier, will you scream please?
00:36:04
[Audience member asks question, inaudible]
00:36:13
[Sumner Jones] One Afro-American history text?
00:36:15
Audience Member: Yes.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 12
00:36:22
[Sumner Jones] Oh man. W.E.B Du Bois is coming out with a nineteen
volume [laughter] history. You've got, you've got many, man, go to New
York some time, go to the Schomburg Collection in Manhattan, an entire
library.
00:36:42
[Audience Member] What is one good one volume history book you
recommend?
00:36:45
[Sumner Jones] I wouldn't recommend a one volume history. I wouldn't do
it. If you, if you want a bibliography of books, we've got them at The Way.
We've got a bibliography of, you know, something like a million books.
Read them all. [Laughter]
00:37:09
[Mary Howard] Sumner, I think what - what he's saying it's, you know, it's
sort of like beer, you have to start with a little bit first, and they can't read
them all and he can't assign them all at one time. Ellen, did you-?
00:37:21
[Ellen O’Neil] One basic text that we've been using in minority history
classes, is Before the Mayflower by Lerone Bennett which gives you, it's it's sketchy, you know, but it gives you a start, you know, It's very well
written.
00:37:41
[Mary Howard] Oh and another one suggested was Crisis in Black and
White by Charles Silberman. The gentleman here.
00:37:55
[Audience Member asks question, inaudible]
00:38:06
[Sumner Jones] It's got to be a separate course.
00:38:05
[Audience Member continues with their question]
00:38:14
[Mary Howard] I think--may I? Just a general comment. The pendulum has
to go all the way to the other side before it can get back in your history
books and I think maybe now it does have to be a separate course and
then integrated with, so that you do have a correct history of America, but
right now, it's got to be separate because there's so much that's been left
out and as all textbooks are pieces will have to be picked out to be tucked
in, appropriately, but right now it can't be.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:38:42
[Sumner Jones] Right now I think it's very important that the students
begin to recognize the fact that, you know, when you talk about
Washington DC, it was a Black man that designed it. I think that's
important or if you sneak that into a history course, just straight American
history course. People are going to be outraged, because I don't think that
history should have to label in terms of Black and white, it shouldn't have
to, but it does now and it's got to be in a separate course.
00:39:23
[Audience member] In our society, it seems that a white man has
[inaudible] had a right to a Negro woman if he wants, but a white girl does
not have the right to have a Negro man. And this relationship between the
sexes seems rather peculiar and I wonder if this says something very
bad--or says that our concept of the relationship between the man and the
woman in American society is somehow basically wrong.
00:39:59
[Mary Howard] The question was that, in our society it's been alright for a
white man to have a Negro woman, but not for a Negro male--and I
haven't decided what I want to call me either--a Negro male to have a
white woman. Joe would like to respond to that is that the gist, I know you
said more than that but is that the gist? He says there's something wrong
with our society in this respect right, is that close enough?
00:40:32
[Audience member] It seems to show a kind of pathology in our
understanding of the meaning of sex, and the relatinoship between man
and woman.
00:40:38
[Mary Howard] He says it's pathological, it's neurotic to have this kind of
set-up in terms of our sexual and inter-human relationships.
00:40:49
[Joe O’Neil] Well, for one thing, that certainly has put the, the white man
has been in a very advantageous position, he's been in a position of
having his cake and eating it too. I'm glad you mentioned that, because in
one AAE class, Armchair Adult Education, class, here, recently, this deals
in minority history, a lady wanted--I asked her why did she, what did she
believe was the reason for so many different colors and hair textures and
facial features among Black people and she said: "Well, I just thought they
came that way" you know.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:41:32
And I pointed out to her that, you know, all of this cry about integration,
you know, integration has been going on since slavery times, but it has
been going on in a one-way street like you've mentioned. The white male
who enjoyed it, so I always feel that the white woman certainly has been
discriminated against, and deprived, and I go along with Thurgood
Marshall is that, many parents apparently does not give their daughters
too much credit for having very much intelligence, you know, they could
always say ‘no,’ but they don't want to give them that freedom they want to
say ‘no’ for them, you know, and earlier Mrs. Howard mentioned that she
had been accosted on the streets in Alabama. I'm here to tell her that I've
lived across this nation, from Los Angeles to Boston, and this is a problem
for Black women all across this nation, including many activists.
00:42:32
And if you don't believe it, you can go down on Hennepin Avenue tonight,
and I will show you. And the men who patronize these women, prostitutes,
are middle-class people because poor people can't afford them, and
certainly not Black men. I don't say that this is anything that makes one
necessarily superior or inferior, it's a fact of life, what I'm trying to say as
you see the rabid racists of the South, many of them have participated in
nighttime integration.
00:43:09
Some of you, perhaps, have wondered why of the interracial marriages
that does occur that most of it is from the Black man, white woman
relationship. Well that's very easily explained, in my opinion, you see the
white man he can go out and leave the suburbs and come to the city and
and play, and go back, and he's still respected in his community, but most
importantly is his status and economics plays a part. So the Black man
has been economically deprived all his life, so really don't have that much
to lose, and well I do admire any woman, I'm one of those who do not like
to be told what I can and cannot do, and to the extent possible I'm going to
do what I feel that I should do, regardless of what society says.
00:44:01
I have certain standards that I abide by, but I not only try very hard, I
believe that I am so secure within myself as a person I don't have to worry
too much about what Johnny John does next door or how you may part
your hair. I feel that I'm an individual, and I have a right, and it makes me
less of a human not to feel that I can do things that satisfy whatever
standards that I may have. Now, I don't know whether I answered your
question about that, this is a very strong point with me, because this has
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 15
been something that has been kept under the rug for quite so long, and it's
so obvious, you know, that something has been going on. I mean there
have been some jumping over the fences and things like this, and the very
ones who shout the most about so-called miscegenation and all of this are
the very ones who are the most guilty of it.
00:45:08
[Mary Howard] We're gonna let one of the minority members of the panel
say something. [Laughter]2
00:45:15
[Ron Palosaari] Lilian Anthony covered this this morning, we talked about
so I'd just like to mention some of the things we mentioned. One thing of
course is that given the situation of slavery it was very easy for the white
man to take advantage of the Negro woman but obviously not for the
Negro man to do anything about it and in this case there grew up a split in
the white man's mind which I really believe in where the Negro woman
became associated with that which was animal about sex, whereas they
could elevate the white woman who was not been a sexual object
because she became a symbol of purity. A man wants a woman in two
places, one on a pedestal, the other in the bed, and it's a very easy
division, when you put mentally the Negro woman in the bed and the white
woman on the pedestal which happened in the South and which has
affected the North.
00:45:52
Now consequently, the Negro woman became associate with sexuality
and, as Richard Sargent mentioned this morning, in his southern town, it
seemed like white men sometimes need to go down to the Negro district,
there they could be quote unquote ‘evil,’ then they could come back to the
white district and again be church members and again be pure but that
was the place where they could expose, you know, the darker side of
themselves, to use the language. At the same time, though, something
else happened and that is when when the white woman was assumed to
be so sexually pure, holy, and the Negro man was associated with that
which was brutish for animal like, that stereotype, the Negro male became
sexually charged. Until now we have the situation where I believe--and I
think of course that this varies a great deal, you know, as to what what the
individual is--but the Negro male and the Negro female both are sexually
charged, partly to the white community, partly because they're forbidden,
partly because of prejudices, partly because of the remnant of slavery.
2
This is presumably a joke due to composition of the panel: three Black panelists and two white panelists.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:46:49
As I mentioned this morning it seems to me that one of the reasons for the
popularity of these dark stockings is that on the on the white girl they
suggest, at least, that she was Negro from the waist down and white from
the waist [laughter] up I think, I really think they carry a positive sexual
charge [one person claps] A stocking manufacturer back there is-[laughter]. But now I am not saying that all of you who are white, or all of
us for a white, have this, you know, to the same degree but I think it is a
part of our society and I think our fear of Negro sexuality is there. In
“Guess Who's Coming to Dinner”3 that's the only love picture I've seen in
twenty years, where the only kiss was through a mirror in the backseat of
a car, you only got a glimpse of it, you see. Think if it had been a white
couple, you know, there'd been necking scene after necking scene, but
still on the film they are so afraid of Negro sexuality, they had to be just
suggested through a bumpy mirror.
00:47:53
[Mary Howard] Others? Yes.
00:47:57
[Audience member] Well I think what Mr Palosaari has said, since I might
take a course from him next year, I agree with him one hundred percent.
[laughter] But I think that this is really quite true and I think that a book that
shows this is
00:48:10
[Mary Howard] Come here. [sound of microphone adjusting]
00:48:11
[Ron Palosaari] Yup, if he's gonna agree with me, let him speak up.
[Laughter]
00:48:14
[Audience member] Well I think that a book that really shows this,
strangely enough, would be Lady Chatterley, where she didn't want to be
on this pedestal, and she didn't want to be honored, she wanted to, you
know, the way we tend to put the white woman on this pedestal, she
wanted to be more or less the sexual and passionate nature that that we
tend to associate, I think the Negro woman, with somewhat and she had a
terrible time getting along with society, no one would respect her at all
because of this. And so I think this is shown, and another thing that I
wanted to say before is on the question of inter-marriage, when I was
3
A 1967 film starring Sindey Poitier in which a white woman brings a Black man (Poitier) home to meet
her parents.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 17
working at St. Mary's Hospital the night that Dr. King was assassinated,
and of course everyone in the place was talking about it, and some people
said ‘good, we got another one out of the way.’
00:49:02
Which I felt like walking off the job right there, I almost did but since I'm
poor I stayed [laughter].
00:49:11
[Sumner Jones] Wise decision.
00:49:12
[Audience member] and anyway this one woman of course talked about it
and she said ‘oh, I think it's a terrible thing, it's awful’ and she went on and
on like this and I know they're wonderful people and implying they're
wonderful people as long as they stay, you know, away from my
neighborhood and then finally she said ‘oh, but of course I don't believe in
intermarriage.’ And she went on like this and I'm thinking this woman is
saying well I'm not prejudiced, however I am prejudiced it is what it
amounts to.
00:49:34
[Mary Howard] Thank you. You may be interested to know that the first
time a jury in the South got concerned about murder and mutilation of a
Negro was, when a Negro male was castrated, the white League of
Women Voters got together and decided that there had to be a
prosecution for that, and that was the first time and that was within the last
ten years. Maybe sex and racism don't go together I don't know. There
was another question. Yes, kind of behind the pole, yeah.
00:50:12
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:50:29
[Mary Howard] Against the what?
00:50:33
[Audience member continues speaking]
00:50:39
[Mary Howard] She wants to know if anyone on a panel would comment
on the pressure of economic power against the Black man?
00:50:47
[Audience member continues speaking]
00:50:59
[Mary Howard] Okay, because of the relationship between sex and
economics, Joe?
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:51:03
[Joe O’Neil] In my opinion, there very definitely is a relationship. First, it
starts with the status I think, you see, if the black man has an equal
opportunity for economic development, this puts him in a position where in
our society women, white women are taught to really look for security in a
marriage. I really feel this is about love. And it certainly is a challenge and
it represents a lot of competition to the white man for the Black man to be
in an equal or even surpass him in his economic capacity to provide for a
wife a home and so have you, so there's a very definite relationship.
00:51:53
This goes hand-in-hand with, also, if the Black man is not able to assert
his masculinity, this also served to degrade him not only in the eyes of his,
of white women but in the eyes of black women also. There very definitely
is a relationship between economics and sex now I'm one of those who
feel, among others, that economics is the basis of racism as well as
certainly a vital factor in the sex versus economics issue.
00:52:42
[Sumner Jones] Well, I expect that from you Joyce, really would. Joyce is
an anthropologist, and they come up with all sorts of weird things
[laughter]. There is definite correlation between sex, a definite relationship
between sex, and economics. This relationship as it exists now obviously
just makes some white men more desirable than the Black man, even to a
white woman. If you want something of a secure relationship,
economically, which I think is what white women, certainly, young women
are trained to look for. Now what can you give to you? In fact that's the
basis of love.
00:53:34
Why do you love Johnny? Well because he comes from a Boston family,
he's got a yacht, limousine and all that, not simply because I do which is
the only legitimate reason it seems to me. So, that puts the Black man in a
bad position as far as acquiring some sort of mate by these standards, by
these standards only. If it doesn't come that it, doesn't become that
important when you're talking about Black women. Because our culture
has a totally different sort of orientation to economics and to what money
is all about. Money is that which you use to get what you want which
excludes a woman because most of you who are from ghetto areas, I'm
speaking obviously to the Black students, know damned well that the
money gathered is often the woman, which is fine, you know, this is just
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 19
an interesting twist in the in the rule because there's more of a demand for
the Black woman on the part of the white man.
00:54:49
He wants to marry and the white woman wants to marry for security, you
see. This becomes really involved--and I'm sort of thinking it through as
they go along--wants to get married for security but she has the same
sexual drives as everybody else, don't try to deny it. I've seen too many of
you in action. [Laughter] The Black woman, however, isn't taught that
security is the important thing when approaching marriage, that love is. So
she's not after security, however money is necessary so when the white
man comes down, which happens all the time because he puts his woman
up on that pedestal and you can only go to bed with your woman in order
to have kids and after you have so many kids, man you just can't afford no
more. So when he gets that urge in the middle of the night, he comes
down to Plymouth Avenue.
00:55:43
Now, the woman can do exactly the same thing, but she has to pay for it
as well in many different ways, new cars, you know, apartments, stereos,
all that. So you're dealing with two totally different orientations to money
and, in a purely Black to Black relationship, it doesn't matter that much
when we're talking about the typical Black culture. You know white to
white or white to Black relationship, it really does matter a great deal
because whites are trained if you love in terms of security, in terms of
material gain.
00:56:42
[Mary Howard] I understand that there was a lot of--that some students felt
that they would be interested in this today and some felt that there would
be very apathetic. Your presence, I think speaks, for itself. I hope that
maybe we can continue this kind of dialogue and discussion at another
time. We have run out of time, I'm being pressured by Ron to ask - permit
one more question and we'll have to make it very short. Penny?
00:57:02
[Audience member asking question, inaudible]
00:57:16
[Mary Howard] One minute, he's gonna answer it already.
00:57:18
[Joe O’Neil] No, I do not. Why should it be necessary to destroy one race,
why should it be necessary to destroy a Black race. I'm very very pleased
with what I am. I can enjoy everything that anyone else in this room can
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 20
enjoy as I am, and I feel that that's a very coward way of not meeting the
issue head-on. Look, I don't advocate--I don't advocate even though I
have an interracial marriage, I don't necessarily advocate that, I don't
necessarily advocate marriage [laughter]. I advocate what you know two
people whatever they decide that they want to do this is what they should
do. Now, I've heard that asked many times. I certainly do not, and I and I
don't really feel that this is going to come about, because I for one when
certainly fighting with all means that I would have at my disposal.
00:58:07
[Mary Howard] Ron wants the last word.
00:58:10
[Ron Palosaari] I think when couples want to marry they, you know, they
should but it shouldn't be a social program. But I do think I do think that
that here again the interracial adoption does get children, you know Black
children, mixed children, into into places where they otherwise wouldn't be
and the people on our block now are integrated whether they want to be or
not. Sumner wanted one last word. [Laughter].
00:58:33
[Sumner Jones] I think that what we're dealing with is a question that has
to be dealt with. It's a question of recognizing humanity, where humanity
does exist. Now, if we were to intermarry whites and Blacks, you refuse
humanity to some other group, and I know that there are other groups that
you refuse humanity to. So, it's not a question of, you know, ‘let's mingle
and wipe out the problem.’ What we want to do is get a culture accepted
as a legitimate culture, a way of life as a legitimate way of life although it
may be different than yours and if you can't do it with Black people, you
can't do it with anybody. So the questions cannot possibly be solved by
massive intermarriages. It can only be solved by confronting the real
problem which isn't Black people. The problem is not Black people, it's
your way of thinking about not only Black people but any other group that
happens to be in the minority. The only minority problem is the majority.
00:59:41
[Mary Howard] Thank you very, very much.
00:59:48
[Applause]
[The recording ends at 00:59:54]
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 21
Show less
Transcript of “Racism in Politics and Power”
A speech by Edgar Pillow
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0390
Description: Edgar Pillow, director of the Hennepin County Office of Economic
Opportunity, discusses issues surrounding racism, the government, and systemic
oppress... Show more
Transcript of “Racism in Politics and Power”
A speech by Edgar Pillow
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0390
Description: Edgar Pillow, director of the Hennepin County Office of Economic
Opportunity, discusses issues surrounding racism, the government, and systemic
oppression. His speech was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of
racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:58:29
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[the recording cuts in during the moderator’s introduction]
00:00:00
[Unidentified speaker] He has worked for the state of Minnesota's
Department of Correction, he has been youth employment coordinator of
the Youth Development Project, and employment coordinator of the
Hennepin County Economic Opportunity Program as well as, deputy
director of TCOIC.1
00:0020
Mr. Pillow is on the board of directors of The Way, the Governor's
Commission on Law Enforcement, the Twin City Manpower Advisory
Committee, the St. Paul Urban League, and belongs to the Minnesota
Welfare Association. He is presently Director of the Hennepin County
Economic Opportunity Program. Mr. Pillow, welcome to Augsburg College.
00:00:44
[Applause]
00:00:53
[Mr. Pillow walking to the stage and gets something]
1
Twin Cities Opportunity Industrialization Center
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 1
00:01:05
Now coach! [he laughs] I want to thank you for the opportunity to be with
you today. I've heard some splendid things about your wish to become
involved, from one of my staff members, Evan Anderson. I know he's
planning on enrolling in the college out here in the fall, but as much time
as he spends out here I think he's already a student. I don't know whose
hair he's getting into out here, but in my opinion, he's been doing some
very constructive and needed things in the community, on the campuses,
and on behalf of disadvantaged persons.
00:01:52
And I'm proud of him and I'm proud of Augsburg college and it's committed
students, who wish to get involved in the action. I'm also grateful for those
red beans and rice and chicken and barbecue. You knew how to get me
out here.
00:02:15
As indicated in the introduction, I'm the director of the Hennepin county
office of Economic Opportunity. And basically my responsibility is to
attempt to mobilize the resources in our community, and to combat
poverty. Now some of the resources just very briefly that we attempt to
bring into play, are legal help, education, health and manpower services.
And I'll just touch very briefly on these before move into the main gist of
my subject.
00:03:02
Now how does legal services help the poor, and particularly the black
community. The law for many people in our society is not an instrument of
help, but it's an instrument of oppression. For example, for those who may
not be acquainted with their legal rights, as many poor people and
non-whites are, you're not acquainted, your child can be expelled from
school illegally and it does happen. You may not receive the proper
amount of welfare subsistence that your family is entitled to. You can lose
your home, or be evicted from it illegally and this daily happens. You can
lose your possessions, there are unscrupulous merchants who live in our
ghetto areas charge outrageous interest rates and take advantage of the
poor people in these areas, who cannot read or write.
00:04:13
And then many times they end up paying for the merchandise many times
over, and because of a drop in economic circumstances they may miss a
couple of payments, and then they have their refrigerator or washing
machine or whatever other basic property that they have and need
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 2
repossessed primarily because of fraudulent merchants and unscrupulous
merchants. So we've tried to bring the law in to help remedy that type of a
condition that exists. And you can also lose your freedom, as many poor
people and particularly non-whites do, where the dragnet comes along
and will routinely pick up anybody that happens to be on the street,
"suspicion or vagrancy", or these other catch-all--catch-all that permits
defenseless people to be swept up, and to be taken down--taken
downtown and for a per person, if you don't have the funds in many cases,
you're powerless.
00:05:21
But say even if you, for many people in our society they may not be rich
enough to have a lawyer, but if they're white or middle-class, they may
have contacts. They'll have a friend who misses them or a husband, or a
father, or some other acquaintance, who knows somebody who can at
least make an inquiry and to help keep the police in the courts and other
forces like that honest. But if you're poor and non-white, many times these
influences and funds are not available to you. And it does happen, it's
happened to one of my staff members, he was kept in week two Jail--kept
in jail two weeks, because of mistaken identification.
00:06:08
He could have lost his job, he could have lost his family, in addition to
whatever respect and status he had acquired in the neighborhood. Of
course, when he was freed he was not guilty, case of mistaken
identification, of course he was able to keep his job with me, but for many
employers that would not have happened.
00:06:29
So what we've attempted to do through the Office of Economic
Opportunity is hire lawyers to represent the poor, and they have been able
to win over eighty-five percent of their cases, eighty-five percent of their
cases in behalf of poor and blacks, now that's a lot of injustice you, may
see it as a lot of victories, but that's a lot of injustice that's present in our
community. Now why is it important, that the law work fairly and impartially
in behalf of all. Because that's the way you create respect for the law,
respect for the law is not created when the law works to oppress you,
respect for the law is created when it works in behalf of you. So we try to
bring law into the black community, and legal services into the black
community, into the poor community so they can be shown as an
instrument of help, there's so many times it operates as an instrument of
oppression. Education,
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 3
00:07:45
I think we will all agree that education is a vital beginning step on the
economic ladder of success. But for many blacks, and some poor whites
too, but particularly blacks because of segregated housing conditions,
they do not have equal opportunities at education. So this is one of the
reasons we've--under the Office of Economic Opportunity we've instituted
a program called Head Start. Head start basically as a program that
attempts to take the child at preschool age, the age of four or five, before
he enters kindergarten, and give him a chance to catch up. Because the
poor, the black children that come from these deprive neighborhoods, and
I'm talking about deprived economically, not deprived culturally, because
there's a whole lot of culture in those black communities.
00:08:39
Many of you, many white people right here now are using it, but
nevertheless they come from homes and many of these communities
where neither the father of the mother can read or write well. Many of the
homes, there's nobody there but the mother, and as a result there may be
very little literature in these homes, very little written word, magazines,
periodicals and so forth, so the child does not get the exposure to the
written word. The mother, many times, may have five or six children, so
she's literally a prisoner in that house, and not being able to read or write
well, she's fearful about venturing too far from the home.
00:09:26
Somebody may point out the bus to her to catch but she's confused and
scared about where to get off, and there's a consequence of her
imprisonment and fear, the children many times seldom get over a block
or two away from home, so that when they enter school, and the teacher
starts talking about the zoo, the bank, department store, and these
four--and these different things, the child does not know what she's talking
about, and the teacher from her middle-class background makes the
mistake and uses--comes up with the stereotypes that perhaps, the child
is lazy or he lacks motivation or he's listless or he's apathetic or he's
hostile, and the child is neither of these things, the child just doesn't know
what the teachers talking about because he hasn't been exposed to these
things.
00:10:17
So in head start, we attempt to take these children at an early age and
expose them to the community, but we also found out that before we could
teach these children, we had to feed them because there are children
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 4
starving right here in Minneapolis, it's just like they're starving in
Mississippi, so we had to not only begin to work with their heads, we had
to start putting something in their stomachs, and so we instituted breakfast
programs in our poor neighborhoods here in Minneapolis, and lunch
programs through Head Start money, because here again, the teachers
were mistaking apathy, and listlessness, for a sign of disinterest on the
part of the child, and basically the child was hungry, and I think you'll
agree that there are all types of studies that have proven that, brain power
and food power are related.
00:11:14
So we found even after we began to feed the children, we found that there
was another step that had to be taken for our poor and our blacks here in
Minneapolis. We found out that many of these children because for
economic reasons, had never been examined or seen by a doctor, since
the doctor patted them on their behind at birth. Never been to the dentists,
and they're in serious--at serious visual defects and so forth. And so here
again before they could learn, they had to have their physical defects
taken care of. Many of them were suffering from malnutrition so forth.
00:11:48
There are very few doctors, or dentists, or clinics in the poor
neighborhoods, the ghetto areas, and you have a mother there with five or
six children, no husband in the house, no car, so consequently when one
of her children become sick, she has to wait almost until it's a crisis
condition, and then she's got to haul all four or five down to General
Hospital and that becomes a days ordeal, where she sits and waits to get
treatment for one child. So as a consequence, she hesitates to go through
that ordeal, and many times when she does go to get the treatment, the
child should have been seen and treated a long time ago.
00:12:33
And even at that, because of economic circumstances and the other
things, she is--she often delays getting any type of treatment for herself,
and she is badly in need of this treatment, because here you have this one
woman in the household, and so many times you hear so much criticism
about AFDC mothers, by other people who have never been in that
position, and you should never criticize another person, unless you've
walked in that person's shoes, because you've got this woman there with
five and six children, the only tree in that house. The only one there who's
providing any nourishment for the children, the subsistence, the discipline,
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 5
the teacher, she's everything, without the benefit of any companionship on
the part of another partner in that household.
00:13:26
So as a consequence the mother is not being treated well, and she has
her physical defects, so before we could begin to teach the children, we
had to treat them for their health defects and we do this in the head start
program. So in just, in order to begin to educate and begin to teach some
of the poor children, we had to start food programs to feed them, we had
to bring in doctors to treat their physical defects, and dentists, where they
had never had any treatment for dental defects. We had started providing
glasses, because you can't learn, you can't read, if you can't see.
00:14:04
We had to start providing hearing aids because if you can't hear the
teacher you can't absorb, and all of these other types of things, having
nothing to do, nothing to do with lack of motivation on the part of the
children, or on the part of the parents. But all due to environmental
defects, and deficiencies that they were not receiving. And in another
area, that we've tried to instigate, and we play a great deal of tension to
through the poverty program is employment. And I think employment
perhaps, has been the most vicious means of discrimination against the
black man, that has existed in America.
00:14:50
Because when you deprive, when you deprive a person of an equal
opportunity, to earn a living then you're killing off his family, and in
America this is what has happened to the Negro male right here in the
Twin Cities. Fifty six percent of the Negro males, regardless, regardless of
their educational level, are working in service type or unskilled jobs, and it
is not because they don't have the education contrary to the myths that
have grown up, because the educational level of the Negro in the Twin
Cities area, there's only eight tenths of a grade level less than it is for his
white counterpart and this is because Minnesota ranks number one and in
the nation and the number of students that it retains in graduating from
high school, and the Negro counterpart goes right along with that.
00:15:48
As a matter of fact, many of the Negroes who come to Minnesota bring
skills, particularly in terms of being able to work with their hands. They
come from the South many times, where they were permitted to practice in
the craft unions, though they didn't get the equal pay, or they weren't
permitted to join the unions, it was the Negroes in many ways who built
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 6
the south. And if you go south, back to school south of Minneapolis, go
south of the Twin Cities, you'll see non-whites working in many positions
that you don't see them working here in the Twin Cities, and I'm not talking
about top positions,
00:16:27
I'm talking about such things as truck drivers. We've got more Negro
teachers than we have mail truck drivers. I'm not talking about the garbage
truck, or the trash truck, I'm talking about the big well-paying truck drivers
jobs, that would enable a male to take care of his family. Auto mechanics,
how many of you--how many service station, Negroes service station
attendants. We're still working here trying to break barriers in the hotel and
restaurant industry, so that Negro mothers can earn a few bucks in the
evening. Perhaps, as a waitress, or a Negro girl going through college can
pick up a few bucks in a restaurant as a waitress, or a Negro man
shouldn't be just limited to working as a busboy or a dishwasher in the
kitchen. It's no reason why he can't serve drinks as a bartender, or be a
maitre d and all the other types of things.
00:17:26
Look around in Minneapolis, don't look at Mississippi, look around in
Minneapolis and ask questions as to why? We don't even have the excuse
that some other states say, that if you had all of our Negroes you'd have
problems too. We've got very few Negroes and in many cases, we're
treating them worse than in any other part of the country. I know in many
ways, this is hard for Minneapolis to believe, but these are the things I
want to share with you, this is why I'm coming to you to enlist your aid. For
example, we've got a, a public school system here in Minneapolis, that is
one of three in the nation, one of three in the state, one of three school
districts in the state, that does not provide hot lunch programs for its
elementary school children.
00:18:16
And this is again, I've already pointed out to you the need, for many of
these children to have food or they're coming from homes where groceries
are lacking, or the diet is improper, but yet because of the forces of status
quo and yet the food is available from the Department of Agriculture,
we've been unable and we need your help in this to get the school board
to institute hot lunch programs in the elementary schools and the poor
areas that want it. We don't say citywide, but just in the poor areas that
want it. The suburban schools have them and we feel that, if you want to
start--that it's a better--it's better to start an easier way, it's more conducive
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 7
to put food in somebody's belly if you want to be able to put something in
their head.
00:19:11
Now I want to share with you some things that I feel, that you can address
yourself to here in our society to help us have a better climate, and I think
it is vital that you become involved. What are some of the things that you
can zero in on here in our society in regard to racism that with your work
and courage, they could be overcome. One, all of you need to insist
through your actions on equal employment opportunities for non-whites.
Now, it is not enough, there are many companies and in many areas that
put up the posters, but still the gap is growing between the non-white
employment rate and the white employment rate.
00:20:03
The situation is so that right now the high school graduate a Negro has a
higher unemployment rate than the non-white high school dropout, and
many times this because that non-white high school graduate refuses to
accept or stay on those traditional service jobs that are offered the
non-white dropout such as the busboy, and the car wash, go to the car
wash is sometimes, if you are ever looking for non-whites, you can find
them there tell you another place you can find non-whites for sure, when
you travel and that's in the restrooms. How do you inspire a son from the
commode room?
00:20:53
I think you need to look at all the various governmental agencies for
example, both at the local level, and at the state level and at the federal
level. Go over to the state and see how many non-whites are employed in
meaningful positions there and I'm not talking about secretaries.
Everybody is looking for secretary, many employers call, send me a pretty,
brown skin, intelligent, attractive girl and I'll hire. I ask him, don't you want
her to type?
00:21:25
[Mr. Pillow clearing his throat]
00:21:32
If you go over to the state looking-- looking the State Department of
education, faculty all white, and this is wrong because then you've got
people over there making decisions on a mixed populace and they know
very little about the mixed populace, and this is wrong in any area, and
you've got only one class of citizens making all the decisions about
another class of citizens. It's wrong primarily because their educational
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 8
institutions along with other institutions have failed to tell all of us the truth,
no others have hit on that with you today. We've got veterans, Negro
veterans, returning from Vietnam to the same situation that they left. I've
had four or five of them call my office, some of them got a year, two years
of college and the doors are still not open.
00:22:29
Now, they don't have skills, you know, but all white youth don't have skills,
but what they do have is this; they've got motivation, they've got potential,
and so what we're asking employers to do, is to do the same thing that
they do with white youths, take this Negro veteran or this Negro young
adult with this potential and ambition and train him, train him on the job,
the same thing that you do with white youths, a white youth comes out of
high school, he hasn't got it all going, but somebody puts their arm around
him.
00:22:58
His father knows somebody, so he gets a job in sales and everybody--they
begin to groom him, and polish him and pretty soon, he's no longer that
awkward green white kid that started. Well, this is the same thing that the
Negro youth needs.
00:23:16
There's no time to be looking for the instant Negroes or the super
Negroes. We've had our Jackie Robinson's and Ralph Bunche's, the same
as white people, but all white people who are not Jackie Robinson's and
Ralph Bunches, and there was a place in the Sun for them and what we're
demanding now is a place in the sun for the Negroes who have ambition
and potential, but haven't had the opportunity to either get the training or
to have that channel constructively.
00:23:43
The kids, the kids that you read about, that are claimed to be rioting and
etc. These are the kids who have the most going into--in behalf of
America, the only trouble is is that you read it wrong. These are the kids
who have not copped out. These are the kids who have the ambition and
who are knocking on the door to be a part of America. The ones who have
given up for the most part of either withdrawn, they're back in the shanty.
It's when you no longer hear the cries for help that the times are the most
dangerous. Those knocks on the door are not to knock the door down, but
they're asking to be--to let them in and you cannot let them in just in time
of war as we're doing now.
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 9
00:24:31
We asked them to do our fighting and this is who are doing the fighting, it's
the poor, the rich or the affluent and the others talk about freedom and you
send the poor and the non-whites and the Appalachian whites to do the
fighting for. The Defense Department had a project called Project One
Hundred Thousand, whereby they took one hundred thousand poor youth
of America, sixty percent of them non-white, forty percent of them white,
sixty percent of them could not read past the sixth grade, fourteen percent
of them could not read past a third grade level, the Defense Department
took them and after a year, after a year of training, graduated ninety-five
percent of these into combat over in Vietnam.
00:25:17
Now, if we can train our poor, and our disadvantaged for combat, for
destruction, why can't we take those same poor here in America, those
same non-whites, and train them for construction. You need to demand, I
say demand through pen and paper, that the poor of our country be fed.
We're in a country right now where many millions of American citizens
black and white are starving, and yet because of our political system, and
vested interests, we pay wealthy farmers not to raise food, not the planet,
not the poor farmers, because the poor farmers don't even get it on it, but
you pay the wealthy farmers not to raise food, or to store it.
00:26:18
You pay them to store it, or you send it overseas, almost anything rather
than give it to your own. And you know why this is permitted, its permitted
because you sit out there and do nothing about it. It's been in the paper,
you know, and what you need to do is get in touch with your
Congress--we've got congressmen right here from Minnesota, that vote
against food aid for the poor in our country, right here in Minnesota. And
you need to you need to grab your pen and pencil and insist that this no
longer continues.
00:26:53
The House of Representatives just recently voted a large appropriation
and rather than have that money go to Mississippi and some of these
other patient's places to feed the people, you know what they did with it,
they voted it for a study, voted it for a study. Doctors have already been
down there and have taken the pictures and come back, but any type of
divergent means not to help people, and this is the type of people, some
of the people that we have in our Congress. And they feel that they can
get away with it, because "Decent American white people donot react to
this type of injustice, now."
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 10
00:27:31
We've got a few, we've got a few American white people and we've got in
particularly the young people, who are saying hell no, we're gonna break
out of this bag for America, and glory be to you, and don't let your adults
put the clamps on you, stick with it, and don't let the bigots scare you. It's
just like in any other time, it's always been a minority of people that have
saved our country, that has brought about progress, it has never been the
masses, who have exhibited the leadership, and it's going to be the same
now and probably always will be.
00:28:09
You need to, you need to insist on loans and grants to Negro
businessmen. You go into the--you can--you go into some of the ghetto
areas and though the Negroes live there, everything own there is white.
The homes are owned by white absentee landlords who don't keep them
up, and who ignore the law, ignore the law, disrespect the law, in terms of
the housing violations, and yet they take the money out of that
neighborhood and take it to the suburbs.
00:28:47
The Negroes have a difficult time trying to get loans or any other type of
things so that they can establish businesses in their own neighborhoods.
The businesses are white owned, the money goes out--goes out and they
don't make an investment in that neighborhood. Many of the Negro
neighborhoods, the ghetto areas here in 0 Minneapolis, I'm not talking
about any place else. They're lacking in recreation facilities. There's no
bowling alleys there, or shows, or swimming pools, and parks, and all of
these types of things, health clinics, and these other things, these things
are absent and missing from the ghettos. No Negro proprietorship, and
until until people begin to have an opportunity to have some proprietorship
where they live, then there's nothing there for them to say, and to get the
loans, and these other types of things, to get the jobs, there steadily have
got to make this plea to the white person, and that's the thing that is so
demeaning is existence so many times, in terms of what he can do to help
himself.
00:29:54
He's not asking for handouts, he doesn't want welfare, that's demeaning.
All he wants is an opportunity to help himself. Basically, many times what
he's asking is that you get out of his way, that's all, get out of his way,
remove--remove that, those discriminatory blocks, clean up your mind, get
out of his way, and he can make it. You need to be prepared to participate
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 11
in boycotts, or other effective means to open up apprenticeship
opportunities for Negroes. Now we've been talking about for years, the
discrimination that occurs as a result of union practices. There's nothing
new that the Negro has to say about that, he said it all before but it's
permitted to continue. You know why it's permitted to continue, because
there are politicians, who owe their votes to the unions, there are officials
in the various enforcement agencies, who all--who are beholden to certain
vested interest is in our society, and "decent people sit around and do
nothing".
00:31:02
So when the decent people do nothing, the forces of evil are always
over--to be able to take over, and as a result, it's the blacks and other poor
who pay. Got an example here just recently, those in the paper that you
read about, that this very qualified Negro man came here with the idea of
trying to be hired as a maintenance supervisor, had all the qualifications
that would could ever be needed, able-bodied, the whole bit, had all the
credentials, letters of references, I met the man, talked to him, and
company after equal opportunity, company, turn this Negro man down,
because he would have been put in a position of supervising whites, that
was the only reason they turned him down. You know, they gave him all
kinds of courteous reasons, but basically, and these are some of your
well-known companies.
00:31:57
You know, I'm not talking about little fly-by-night company, I'm talking
about these are companies with big Equal Opportunity posters, the man
was being turned down, because he was competent enough to supervise
whites, and he couldn't be hired doing that. This is the type of thing that is
so damaging to Negro youth. There's no good to you, it is very little-there's very little good to be talking education and all these other types of
things, and incentives to non-white youth, if they can't look around in their
community and see where their dad or their brother or their-- their peer
has achieved, particularly when he's already acquired their credentials.
00:32:28
These are the things that your help is needed in it, because the way it is
actually, one white person's word is equal to ten Negroes word, that's
unfortunate but that is the way, that's the way it is so you've got to become
involved and I don't mean after the riot. After the riots occur, here come
white people from suburbs and everything, cruising through--cruising
through the area. The only time they've been there, Negroes have been
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 12
talking about the area, you know, for many times, you know, help us to
establish some proprietorship in this area. Provide us--you know, give it
take away the employment barriers. You know, provide us with the
municipal services so that our streets can be cleaned and shoveled, and
the garbage picked up and they fall on unofficial deaf ears, both unofficial
and official deaf ears, but as soon as a few windows are broken, the
whites pour in on a sightseeing tour. You need to insist, and I think
Augsburg is beginning to do this.
00:33:43
If the colleges and universities open up meaningfully to non-whites, but it's
not just enough to open up to non whites, I think you've read the statistics
in the paper where our northern colleges actually have a fewer percentage
of non-whites in them than in our southern colleges, and yet it took = the
Supreme Court to open up the southern colleges. It is not just enough to
open up the colleges to non-whites and provide them with scholarships
and tutoring, that's okay, but you also need to look at some of your
courses that you've got.
00:34:17
Some of the courses that you have in colleges are totally unrelated to the
world, and yet you go ahead--you know--you're still--you know working on
that same curriculum, working on that same curriculum, you seen I'm
talking about. You need to bring in, you need to bring in, some--you know,
untraditional like students. who can--who can share with you the way the
world out there is, so that you can begin to relate school to the world as it
is and to the mixed population that exists out there. It doesn't mean that
you got to scrap everything, but our colleges and educational institutions
are in desperate need of revised curriculum, and there is some blacks,
you know, without PhD's or MA's or BA's that could be of tremendous help
to you and relating it to you.
00:35:06
Because so many times your populace comes from one sector of society,
and your teachers come from one sector of society, so where is their,
where is the intrusion for additional learning. I think the other important
thing about that when you begin to revise some of your curriculum, you're
gonna find out that some of these blacks can star.
00:35:27
There's gonna be "A" students and some of these things that you don't
know about The only reason they're not "A" students is because you're
only teaching one side of the picture. You're teaching your side of the
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 13
picture, open it up, and learn something from them and have it that way,
they'll have a chance to start too, because many of you would be "F"
students, via ghetto knowledge, but yet the ghetto is a part of America and
there's some, and there's some strong points in those ghettos and there's
some culture, and there's some language, and there's some savvy, and
there's some moxie, and there's some strength.
00:36:09
You need to support the black community's petition to the urban coalition
that the City Council has some representatives from the black community,
either through an advisory capacity or some other way and also that, that
black representatives beyond all of the policy and planning boards of the
city. Why is this important? I think I've touched on it before, because in the
cases way it is now, you've got--you've got one side of the community
making all the decisions about another side of the community that they
know nothing about, and they know nothing about them, because all of the
institutions the church, the school, business, and all--all the others, the
media have failed to tell the truth so as a consequence, you can no longer
rely just on white people to help Negroes.
00:37:07
It's got to be done and this is what the blacks are insisting on that it be
done shoulder-to-shoulder. No longer want a bit of one person standing up
and the other one kneeling. You need to insist for example for openers at
the congress, the congress of the United States appropriated money this
summer to hire so that poor youth black and white and red can have jobs
this summer. Right now that the only one who is passed such an
appropriation is that--is the Senate, the House of Representatives in
Minnesota congressman, there are Minnesota congressman who are
voting against it so that we could provide employment, decent
employment opportunities for our youth in this summer.
00:38:03
They talk about all types of you know, riot prevention and all these other
things you know, and it's terrible that it has to be talked about that way, but
still at no time that they want to provide appropriations, appropriations so
that people, so that blacks and reds and poor whites can work
constructively and with dignity. You know, no make-work jobs you know,
no sweep in the streets you know, the kids don't want that and the men
don't want that.
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 14
00:38:29
Basically what they want is an opportunity to earn a decent wage in a
decent job, and an opportunity to rise above that entry-level job, but so
many white employers because, because of the the racism thinking that
has occurred in our country, feel that it is just enough to offer any job to a
non-white and that he should be forever grateful regardless of the pay and
regardless of the dead endless of it. You need to insist that the President
of the United States speak out in support of positive programs in support
of the appropriations.
00:39:10,
You need to insist that the President, and all candidates for elected office
support the riot commission reports recommendations without any
equivocation. You see, they have no right to equivocate on the basic
human rights of black people. You have no right to do this, but yet it's
been done historically. You need to insist in the areas that you live, that
suburban schools hire non-white teachers, now it's tragic enough that the
suburban schools for the most part are not integrated because here again,
you don't begin early in school to teach America as it really is, then this is
why so many times white people grow up and become adults with the
hang-ups that they have about our American society and even more
importantly about the world in general.
00:40:04
We're over there now, overseas, trying to deal with non-whites overseas,
and we haven't been able to deal with them equitably and humanely here
so consequently lacking knowledge we use the bomb, you know, that's
just like you know the big bully. There's no other weapon, no other
weapon but the stick, easier to use the stick than have to think, think it out.
And do not accept the excuse that suburban schools would hire, would
hire qualified non-white teachers if they could find them.
00:40:45
There are qualified white--non-white teachers who have been applying to
the suburban schools and have been turned down and in the absence of
not hiring the qualified non-white teacher you can always bring in minority
people as resource people in this consultants, and bring in--bring them in
from a variety of occupations, don't just bring in the Negro doctor, the
Negro lawyer, he's not the total Negro community, bring in the Negro
mechanic, the Negro postman and so forth, so that so that white children
and white youth have an opportunity to meet some of the other population
that is present here in America and can begin to find out for their own
selves.
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 15
00:41:34
And pay them when they come, don't ask them out their gratis, you pay
white consultants, pay them, you need to encourage your churches and
other groups to adopt certain agencies or programs or families, non-white
families to help them do cash. Many times, there is no substitute for cash,
many times, people may be hungry or have emergency needs or an
agency may be struggling and need funds and they need cash. Let's take
the The Way. The Way is an agency that many of you read about is
located on the north side of Minneapolis.
00:42:16
Now this agency gets calls from all over the state and from the suburbs,
and every place, and out of state, you know to come in and help educate
them in regard to minority relations and human relations. And they're
performing a great service and they're dying, they're practically bankrupt
because they don't have cash, they don't have cash, they don't have
finance, they've got no source of funding, but he had all kinds of group call
on the way and--and the people who work there to help educate them.
00:42:54
You have big colleges, that get great big grants, to study you know, to--to
set up programs on minority relations, and big grants, and they'll call in
staff members from the way or some other place and give them a pittance,
and they provide the core of the instruction, for the program to go on and
yet when the way, when the black agency applies to these same
foundations etc. for money so that they can help themselves, they will not
give it to a black agency but they'll give it to a white institution you know, to
set up minority relations program, that the minority people are the experts
on and they only get the pittance, you know, and all the rest goes to the
whites. that's what I'm talking about, and that's paternalism and that's a
racism, that's a denial of an opportunity for blacks to help themself based
on their own professional competence--competence and the expertise that
they have in their area and they can't even earn in that.
00:44:01
As I stated sometimes there's no substitute for cash. You should, you
should encourage both your churches and other groups and agencies to
set up emergency contingency funds for hardship cases, that black people
and poor come across. Many times, families are evicted from their home
and they're in need of emergency funds and you just don't go downtown
and apply for relief and there are many poor people who would rather
starve than be on relief, and that's not being lazy, that's a matter of pride.
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 16
In addition to the fact that many times our resident requirements and all
the other bit that can work against people getting immediate help, an
emergency contingency fund, that people could get help with Dignity.
00:44:55
You know, they don't have to you know tell how many freckles they got on
their face and all that bit. Newly-arrived families sometimes come in the
city, and they come here primarily because they've read somewhere that
this-- that, the north in Minnesota is a land of opportunity, and
unfortunately when they get here they find out it is not true, it's a beautiful
country, and it's a hospitable country if you've got it made. They come
here from the South many times, and they've already got the skills, coming
as carpenters and electricians and so forth, as I said before, they were
permitted to utilize that in the South though they couldn't earn the same
income but they couldn't vote.
00:45:41
So they come here to vote, and they can't work in their--in their craft, so
we--we can--we convert the Negro carpenters and cement finishers into
custodians. And you can imagine the effect that has on the on that man's
family, in so many cases this has led to the deterioration and breakup of
the Negro males family, because the Negro man not being able to support
his family, in line with his--with what he has to contribute, and pretty soon
the Negro women begin to turn on him.The aunts, the mother, and the
mother-in-laws, and the sister.
00:46:21
They begin to turn on that man, and pretty soon the children begin to lose
respect for him and as a consequence pretty soon, the man flees the
home, and he flees the home not because he doesn't have love for his
family, he flees many times out of love for his family and the fact that he
can no longer stand and bear the loss of respect that he has from his
family. This goes back to the days of slavery, where many times the Negro
man was forced to watch the white masters raped his mother and his wife
and he was helpless to do anything about it.
00:46:58
Many times the white masters would beat the Negro male in front of his
family with a subsequent loss of esteem, and this has continued right on
through the present-day America where the Negro man is denied the
opportunity to earn a living and provide a living for his family, because of
the barriers of discrimination. And you talk about respect you, talk about
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 17
respect for law and order and respect for the law, white people have never
respected laws in regard to discrimination.
00:47:28
There are all kinds of laws on the book that say thou shalt not
discriminate, and you've never respected them. All integrated is your
neighborhood, your school, the place where you work.
00:47:50
Urban renewal, urban renewal that's probably one of the more vicious
things that's practice against black that exists in America. Where they
come with a bulldozer into the Negro neighborhood, and crushing people's
homes, and their aspirations, and their savings and then they pile them all
up into just one tiny pocket of that ghetto, because blacks don't have the
opportunity to move anywhere in their society, and they didn't make the
decision that the bulldozer should come in there so they bring the
bulldozer in there and they cut, they cut that already crowded ghetto in
half which makes the Negro families then have to to pile up together even
more, and then they leave the land out there, that, a desolate becomes a
wasteland of weeds and trash which leads to further deterioration in the
neighborhood.
00:48:56
Which means, which negates also the remaining residents ability to get
insurance, get rehabilitative housing, loans, to get mortgage and so forth,
then you then you add to that, the unemployment situation and the fact
that, that, the Negroes cannot have proprietorship rights in that
neighborhood and the fact that the city does not come out and collect the
garbage in the trash and clean the streets like a dozen the more affluent
Negro, in more affluent neighborhoods and then you toss a hundred
degree heat into that where and and you've got eight or nine people living
in two or three rooms and you wonder why these areas explode.
00:49:36
White people have never committed situations, would never permit
America to impose those type of conditions on them. You revolted here in
America just when you thought, you know when you thought, you were
going to be oppressed, you had--you--you know--you weren't oppressed,
you just thought you were going to be. You went out there and threw
all--threw off those tea bags and that was disrespect for property that was
not your property, those tea bags.
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 18
00:50:11
You need to appoint citizens committees, to visit municipal courts and jails
etc. To ensure and support justice for all, the low as well as the high,
non-whites as well as whites. See, you don't--you don't know anything
about justice, and law and order. Law and order rattles off, you know,
rattles off so easily off of your tongues, as if it's an automatic thing, this is
because many times you haven't been on the other end of that--of that
disrespect for law and order, like many non-whites have been for--for
centuries in our society.
00:50:57
Go visit, find out, find out for yourself, how the courts works, sometimes
how the police works, our system of American jurisprudence works. If you
don't have the money or the contacts and so forth and if you don't get tried
by a jury of your peers, you don't get tried by them, you don't get
sentenced by them, you don't get kept by them, and you don't get paroled
by them.
00:51:29
You need to involve yourself in my opinion with--withstanding social action
committees, in combination with other groups to zero in on community and
justices that arise, and it doesn't mean that you take on the whole bag, but
there's enough things that you can just read about in the paper, or that
minority people have been telling you about for years. If you just act, act
on it, just one of them, just take you know, any one of the things, when
you read about it, get some other concerned citizens and do something
about it.
00:52:00
Inquire about it, you know and zero in, you can be of tremendous help as
a white person. There are many of injustices that are routinely occurring in
our society against American citizens and particularly black people, and
they have no one to turn to, no individual, no agency, because the many
agencies that are in our society, for the most part are beholden to the
status quo, or to vested interests, or else their self seeking or self serving.
Non-whites know this and there's result many times, they're powerless,
they're powerless to use the constructive channels to get redress for the
grievances, but it's also important on your social action committees, that
you accept only people who are committed, and who are courageous,
don't go out try to get some bigots and convert them.
00:53:09
You know, you don't, we don't have that kind of time. You know, get some
people maybe who are not knowledgeable or maybe who are neutral, but
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 19
don't even get them if they don't have guts. [inaudible] this is what--this is
what America needs, and this is what we're losing, you know, I've already
shown you that, you know, who do we send to do the fighting, you know
we don't send a profile, we don't send a profile of America do the--to do
the fighting do we? we send those who have the least to give the most.
00:53:40
You know even in the medieval times, it used to be considered that the
people of affluence where the people had the traits of valor. The forces of
evil and injustice in our society are strong, and they've been permitted to
become that way and deeply ingrained in our society and community
because "decent people seemingly haven't or hesitate to have the
backbone if I may paraphrase to take arms against the sieve and justices
and by opposing end them" and for example, I'm sure this has been
excited-- exciting to you before, but where were you years ago when they
took that little fourteen-year-old negro boy, two white men and bashed him
in the face.
00:54:42
Hung a big rock around his neck and throw him in the river, a little boy by
the name of Emmett Till because they said he winked at a white woman,
not only was he acquitted, as all white people have been acquitted for
murdering Negroes in the south, but they were able to sell their story to
Look magazine describing how they did it and they were paid for it.
00:55:06
And the same about four little girls, who were bombed in the Lord's temple
in Birmingham, whose only sin was that they were black. And negro
homes and churches continued to be bombed and burned. There have
been times, when there have been as many as one hundred Negro
churches burned in a month and many times this is the only property that
Negroes have, or been permitted to have. You know, and where was your
respect for property then, where is your respect for life.
00:55:45
I heard no cries about law and order when these things are occurring, and
they're routinely occurring, every--you know every once in a while now.
When they started looking for somebody in the--in the South, they will turn
up a couple of Negro bodies out of the river, you know, been missing, you
know, some white kids had a lark, killed some Negroes, with impunity,
there has never been a white man convicted for murdering a Negro in the
south, the closest they ever came to was conspiracy for civil rights. Now
isn't that a mockery, you see where is the respect for law and order by
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 20
whites, when you can bomb, and burn, Negroes poverty, when you can kill
them with impunity, you can rape their women with impunity, you can
discriminate against them contrary to the law, where is the respect for law
and order?
00:56:47
If we perhaps would have had some respect for law and order and the
injustices that were occurring against some of our citizens of a different
hue then, it's possible that a man of peace by the name of King might still
be alive, also a man of inspiration and vision by the name of Kennedy, two
fine American seeds wasted, because "decent” people condoned through
their inaction, a climate of ill-will, and disrespect for life and property
towards many American citizens of a different hue to prevail in our
country.
00:57:33
The President of the United States must sneak into American cities as if
he's entering foreign soil, secret agents swarming like ants everywhere,
sneak into American cities as if he's entering foreign soil instead of the
land of the free and the brave.
00:57:52
Even in combat, there's a demilitarized zone that is safe to enter, but we
have run out of zones and time here in America. The time for mourning is
over now again as ever before.
00:58:08
It is a time for movement, the movement against evil and injustice, poverty
and prejudice, to ensure that all Americans have an opportunity to have a
stake with dignity in our society, or they'll be less stake for us all, thank
you.
00:58:26
[Applause]
“Racism in Politics and Power” (transcript), page 21
Show less
Transcript of “Racism in Education”
A speech by Mahmoud El-Kati
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0389
Description: Mahmoud El-Kati (then known as Milton Williams), Director of the Creative
Education Center at The Way in Minneapolis, delivered a speech on May 15, 1968 as
pa... Show more
Transcript of “Racism in Education”
A speech by Mahmoud El-Kati
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0389
Description: Mahmoud El-Kati (then known as Milton Williams), Director of the Creative
Education Center at The Way in Minneapolis, delivered a speech on May 15, 1968 as
part of “One Day in May” at Augsburg College (now Augsburg University). Students,
faculty, and administration canceled class to invite leaders of Minneapolis’ Black
community to speak about system racism and related issues.
Duration: 00:50:09
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[transcription note: the recording cut off a small part of the introduction, including the
name of the person introducing El-Kati]
00:00:01
[Inaudible] who holds degrees in sociology and history from Wilberforce
University in Ohio has also spent three summers at the Institute of
behavioral science in the University of Wisconsin at Madison. Mr. Williams
has spent five years in the field of social welfare with public welfare
departments in New York and Cleveland, and has worked for three and a
half years as a vocational counselor with the St. Paul Rehabilitation
Center.
00:00:29
He is currently Director of the Creative Education Program at the Way
Center. Although he is basically oriented toward social problems, Mr.
Williams has devoted a great deal of energy during the past eight years
teaching and writing on Afro-American heritage and culture. He has
conducted seminars, workshops, and lecture series in the metropolitan
area for the past four years. I'm pleased to welcome Mr. Milton Williams.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 1
00:00:53
[The audience applauds]
00:01:08
[Mahmoud El-Kati] Thank you. I would like to just make a few at random
comments reflecting some of my visions on what we call education, before
we get to the nitty-gritty. I don't think one has to be a world traveler to
learn that there's an extraordinary degree of human nature which is pretty
much the same all over this country, and this is especially true in our
colleges and universities, I think. What we seem to be turning out is if,
through a kind of mold, a type of human being whose chief interest in life
is to find security, and it becomes somebody important, but I have a good
time with as little thought is possible.
00:02:20
Thus conventional education, I think, becomes extremely difficult, where
independent thinking is concerned. Conformity leads to mediocrity. To be
different from the group or to resist environment is not easy and is often
risky as long as we worship success, in my opinion. The urge to be
successful, which is the pursuit of reward whether in the material or in the
so-called spiritual sphere. The search for inward or outward security, the
desire for comfort, this whole process smothers discontent, puts an end to
spontaneity, and breeds fear, and fear blocks the intelligent understanding
of life.With increasing age, dullness of mind, and heart sets in.
00:03:10
In seeking comfort, we generally find a quiet corner in life where there is a
minimum of conflict, and then we are afraid to step out of that seclusion.
This fear of life, this fear of struggle and of new experience kills in us the
spirit of invention, adventure. Our whole upbringing in education has made
us afraid to be different from our neighbor, afraid to think contrary to the
established pattern of society, falsely respectful of authority and tradition.
00:03:41
Fortunately, there are a few of us who are earnest who are willing to
examine our human problems without prejudice to the right or to the left,
but in the vast majority of us there is no real spirit of discontent, of revolt.
When we yield uncomprehendingly to environment any spirit of revolt that
we may have had dies down and our responsibilities soon put to an end.
00:04:16
Revolt is of two kinds: there's the obvious violent revolt which is mere
reaction without understanding against the existing order, and then there
is a deep psychological revolt of intelligence. There are many who revolt
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 2
against the established orthodoxies only to fall into new orthodoxies.
Further illusions and conceal self indulgences. What generally happens is
that we break away from run group a set of ideals and join another group,
take up other ideals thus creating a new pattern of thought against which
we will again have to revolt. Reaction only breeds opposition and reform
needs further reform.
00:05:00
But there is an intelligent revolt which is not reaction and which comes
with self-knowledge through the awareness of one's own thought and
feeling. It is only when we face experience as it comes and do not avoid
disturbance that we keep intelligence highly awakened and intelligence
highly awakened is intuition which is the only true guide in life.
00:05:34
Now what is the significance of life? What is the significance of education
to life? What are we living and struggling for if we are being educated
merely to achieve distinction, to get a better job, to be more efficient, to
have wider domination over others, then our lives will be shallow and
empty.
00:05:46
If we are being educated only to be scientists, to be scholars wedded to
books, a specialist addicted to knowledge, then we shall be contributing to
the destruction and misery of the world. Though there's a high and wider
significance to life, of what value is our education if we never discover it?
We may be highly educated, but if we are without deep integration of
thought and feeling our lives are incomplete, contradictory and torn with
many fears and as long as education does not cultivate an integrated
outlook on life it has very little significance.
00:06:24
In our present civilization we have divided life into so many departments
that education has very little meaning, except in learning a particular
technique or profession. Instead of awakening the integrated intelligence
of the individual, education is encouraging him to conform to a pattern,
and so as hindering his comprehension of himself as a total process. To
attempt the song the many problems of existence at their respective
levels, separated as they are into various categories indicates another
lack of comprehension. The individual is made up of different entities, but
to emphasize the differences and to encourage the development of a
definite type leads to many complexities and contradictions.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 3
00:07:06
Education should bring about the integration of these separate entities for
without integration life becomes a series of conflicts and sorrows. Of what
value is it to be trained as a lawyer if we perpetuate litigation? Of what
values knowledge if we continue in our confusion? What significance has
technical and industrial capacity if we use it to destroy one another? What
is the point of our existence if it leads to violence and utter misery?
Though we may have money, or are capable of learning it, though we
have our pleasures and our organized religions, we are in endless conflict.
00:07:48
We must distinguish between the personal and the individual. The
personal is the accidental, and by the accidental I mean the circumstances
of birth, the environment in which we happen to have been brought up,
with its nationalism, superstitions, class distinction, and prejudices. The
personal or accidental is but momentary thought. The personal or
accidental is but momentary, though that moment may last a lifetime and
as the present system of education is based on the personal, the
accidental, the momentary, it leads to the perversion of thought and the
invocation of self defensive fears. All of us have been trained by education
and environment to seek personal gain and security and to fight for
ourselves, though we covered over with pleasant phrases, and have been
educated for various professions within a system which is based on
exploitation and acquisitive fear.
00:08:52
Such a training is, must inevitably bring confusion and misery to ourselves
and to the world, for it creates in each individual the psychological barriers
through which separate and hold him apart from others, his fellow man.
Education is not merely a matter of training the mind, training makes for
efficiency, but it does not bring about completeness. A mind that has
merely been trained is the confrontation of the past, continuation of the
past, and such a man can never discover the new.
00:09:22
That is why to find out what is right education, we will have to inquire into
the whole significance of living. To most of us the meaning of life as a
whole is not of primary importance. In our education emphasizes
secondary values merely making us proficient in some branch of
knowledge, though knowledge and efficiency are necessary, to lay chief
emphasis on them only leads to conflict and confusion. There is an
efficiency inspired by love, I'm sorry I mention that word. Love, yeah,
which goes far beyond, and is much greater than the efficiency of
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 4
ambition, and without love, which brings an integrated understanding life,
efficiency breeds ruthlessness.
00:10:05
Is this not what is actually taking place all over the country today? Our
present education is geared to industrialization and war. I don't think that
can be denied its principal aim being developed toward efficiency, and we
are caught in this machine of ruthless competition and mutual destruction.
If education leads to war, if it teaches us to destroy or to be destroyed, has
it not utterly failed? To bring about right education we must obviously
understanding the meaning of life as a whole, and for that we have to be
able to think not consistently and directly and truly a consistent thinker is
thoughtless.
00:10:47
He's a thoughtless person because he conforms to a pattern. He repeats
phrases and thinks in a groove. We cannot understand existence
abstractly or theoretically. To understand life is to understand ourselves
and that is both the meaning, the beginning, and the end of education.
Education is not merely acquiring knowledge, gathering, and in correlating
facts. It is to see the significance of life as a whole, but the whole cannot
be approached through the part, which is what governments, organized
religions, and authoritarian parties are attempting to do.
00:11:27
The function of education is to create, is to create human beings who are
integrated and therefore intelligent. We may take degrees and be
mechanically efficient without being intelligent. Intelligence is not mere
information, it is not derived from books, nor does it consist of clever
self-defensive responses, and aggressive ambitions, assertions. One who
has not studied may be more intelligent than to learned.
00:11:54
We have made examinations and degrees the criterion of intelligence and
have developed cunning minds that avoid vital issues in our lives.
Intelligence is the capacity to perceive the essential, the what is, and to
awaken the capacity in oneself and in others. That's education. Education
should help us to discover lasting values so that we do not merely cling to
formulas or repeat slogans. It should help us to break down our national
and social barriers instead of emphasizing them, for they breed
antagonism between man and man.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 5
Unfortunately the present system of education is making us subservient, mechanical,
and deeply thoughtless, though it awakens us intellectually inwardly it
leaves us incomplete, stultified, and uncreative. Without an integrated
understanding of life our individual and collective problems will only
deepen and extend. The purpose of Education is not to produce mere
scholars, and technicians, and job hunters, but integrated men and
women who are free from fear. For only between such human beings can
there be enduring peace. It is in the understanding of ourselves that fear
comes to an end.
00:13:15
If the individual is to grapple with life from moment to moment, if he used
to face its intricacies, its miseries, and sudden demands, he must be
infinitely pliable and therefore free of theories in particular patterns of
thought. Education should not encourage the individual to conform to
society but to be negatively harmonious with it and help him to discover
the true values which come with unbiased investigation and
self-awareness. When there is no self knowledge, self-expression
becomes self assertion. With all its aggressive and ambitious conflicts,
education should awaken the capacity to be self-aware, and not merely
indulge in the gratifying self-expression.
00:14:01
What is the good of learning if in the process of living we are destroying
ourselves. As we are having a series of devastating wars, one right after
another, there's obviously something radically wrong with the way we
bring up our children. I think most of us are aware of this, but we do not
know how to deal with it or to heal it. Systems, whether educational or
political, are not changed mysteriously. They are transformed when there
is a fundamental change in ourselves.
00:14:35
The individual is of the first importance, not the system, and as long as the
individual does not understand the total process of himself, no system
whether of the left or the right can bring order and peace to the world. I
don't generally do this, you see, but I had to make sure I said some things
that I thought had significance to you. I don't generally do anything by
plan. I follow my instincts, spontaneity, my discontent, but you can only do
that with the kind of people that I deal with.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 6
00:15:13
So then, you must understand my predicament. I'm used to dealing with
the cream of the crap instead of the cream of the crop, so you are the
cream of the crap--crop--I'm sorry! [Laughter and Applause]
00:15:39
I thought we'd get that out of the way real quick, like I'm not an
academician and I don't try to be one. My whole interest in history, and
other things is social, if you stretch the point you might say that I'm a
social historian. I only use it insofar that it has relevance to being useful
tools in human relations. I'm not interested in dates and seeing how many
chronologies I can run down. I just wanted to have relevance to you and to
me so it can create intelligent revolt.
00:16:14
Intelligent action instead of violent revolt. This is very significant. I am in a
deep psychological revolt against American society. I'm trying to be
intelligent, you see. That's my revolt. There's a lot of revolts going on
simultaneously in this country. In my revolt, sit-ins on education primarily,
because I do believe that education must teach one how to deal with the
process of living all of the things that the human being must confront be
confronted with in order to exist. Poverty, and pain, and ugliness, and
beauty, and love. I think education should teach one how to deal with
these things as he goes through life.
00:17:10
I've heard it said that education should be the art and science of making
human beings of teaching responsibility of teaching, responsibility to
oneself for oneself and to others. I think that's the essence of it. It teaches
us how to live together. Theoretically, this is true, but unfortunately when
the folks set up the educational system in this country, it was not based on
the recognition of humanity, of the complexity of humanity, and so I think
that most people in this country today be he black or white, Mexican,
Indian, whoever is not being educated.
00:17:50
You're not educated if you don't understand what it means to relate to
another human being and most of us do not. We emphasize the opposite,
the differences between ourselves. Ostensibly in this country it is racism.
Racism is in the educational institutions of this country from top to bottom,
inside out, upside down, any way you want to look at it. It's a racist
oriented educational system. It is dehumanized. Nearly thirty million black
people in this country, five million Mexicans, a million Indians, and all of
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 7
the shades in between, because in this process of education, the
humanity of these people is not recognized.
00:18:39
It's racist and you can't begin to understand anything about what's going
on until you understand the human weight and complexity behind what
you see today, this violent revolt, reaction, they're reactionaries. That's
what it all is. These are demonstrations, but revolt and revolutions begins
with ideas. We're nowhere near revolution, so don't sweat. Not that way,
but something significant is taking place on the cultural level and we insist
that we're gonna have a cultural revolution all over black America. We're
gonna have one with or without white folks.
00:19:23
We'd like for you you feel something of the human spirit to join us but if
you're gonna have all these hangups, fear of the unknown, of the new, of
adventure, of new experience then we're going for ourselves, but our
revolution is a basic appeal for the expansion of humanity. That's what it
is.
00:19:46
We want for the new rebirth of mankind worked out to its ultimate logic.
This is what we're talking about, but we must begin with ourselves and
we'll begin by revolting against the educational system of this country
which fails to recognize the humanity of black people. In spite of the fact
that we've been at 14 generally generations we're nearly 100%
native-born, we fought in all of these glorious wars and you refuse to see
us. You go through the twelve, fourteen, sixteen, sometimes twenty year
experience of education and you don't see me in the Revolutionary War,
at the Battle of New Orleans in 1812, at the Alamo, in the Civil War where
were of my antecedents participated, put the flag up on San Juan Hill,
broke through the Rhine in World War I, World War II all over the Pacific,
in Italy, Pork Chop Hill, that's an interesting word, I'd like to get into that
sometime, and this thing, whatever you want to call it, now that's going on
in Southeast Asia.
00:21:15
A nonentity in American life. When we examine the human interaction of
the people in this country, historically, I don't exist so you can't know me,
and Ralph Ellison was quite right that we're invisible people. It's said to
have beating hearts and living affections but you refused to see me, and
you cannot. You haven't had a chance, you see.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 8
00:21:40
You got to understand what racism means. Let me tell you what I think it
is. It's a philosophic disease. It's a part and parcel of the warp and woof of
American life institutional life. And racism is of two kinds: individualized
racism and institutionalized racism. Most of the racism in the society is
promoted through institutions. Most white people are unconscious racists,
they're not even aware of it. An example of individualized racism would be
some individual or several of them throwing a bomb in a building like this,
full of black people, if you were black. That's individualized racism, but
when you have 50,000 black babies in the Mississippi Delta dying literally
from starvation because they cannot get proper medical facilities or proper
welfare attention, that's institutionalized racism.
00:22:41
Men make the human condition. They create it, and that's where we are.
Education is one of the basic institutions in any societies, it's a balance
wheel of social machinery. That's it, it's the most basic institution next to
the first institution that is the family unit, that the human being comes
through to be socialized, so to speak, to be humanized, to understand
what it means to be humane and to have wants and all of these things that
we are born with, but they didn't remain underdeveloped, and dominant,
and perverted, and so you can't relate to people who are unlike you with
respect to their peculiar and beautiful humanity, so you haven't had a
chance, and what we're trying to do in this country today is to create a new
frame of reference in which all people can fit.
00:23:37
We're interested in creating a human society, to hell with the great society,
we already got that America is indeed a great country. Technology,
proficiency, efficiency. You already had that. No need to make
pronouncements about its greatness in this area, but in terms of people
living and appreciating one another in this pluralistic culture, it hasn't
happened. The melting pot hasn't melted among white folks, let alone
black folks. We haven't even gotten into the pot so we don't even talk
about melting, but in Indians and folks like that, it's never melted and we
examine all of these things that we've taught in school.
00:24:28
The new concept of integration which is a kind of logical fallacy. It's a
sociological fallacy. There's no such thing as integration in this society that
I can see. So how in the hell are black people gonna integrate, what are
they going to integrate into? White folks are not integrated. This is a
pluralistic culture and it's organized pluralistically, pragmatically it is
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 9
organized via in groups, groups, cliques, and classes pragmatically
organized power groups balancing and negating the forces of one
another. That's integration, that's what you call the American creed among
white people. The political economy.
00:25:15,480
Everybody has a piece of pie, but in human relations white folks are
not integrated. When we were forced to examine this even surface with
the uneven body bottom we noticed some things, that people only
organized pragmatically, power groups. We noticed that Jew, white Jew, is
not particularly fond of his daughter marrying an Anglo-Saxon or an
Anglo-Saxon is not particularly fond of having his daughter marry an
Italian so like, who the hell am I going to integrate with if they can't make
it, you know, and we see that when individuals in this pragmatic society
says they're free, they say they're free because their groups are free, and
the white Jew says he's free, he's free because his group is free.
00:26:06
When the Anglo-Saxon says he's free is free because his group is free.
When the Roman Catholic says he's free is free because his group is free.
So then, if I want to participate in the society I have to do it as a group.
Well-organized with representation in the cultural apparatus of American
life, can do it no other way, we've been trying for years as individuals
being siphoned off one by one, that exceptional Negro, you know, with the
Phi Beta Kappa key and all the degrees you can name. That ain't where
it's that. We either come in as a group but we don't come in at all because
that's the way the society is organized. Now I don't want to hear people
talking about the Constitution and the inclusive [inaudible] such as the Bill
of Rights because it makes no provisions even for political parties but they
exist, you see.
00:27:00
The Constitution is a tremendous document but that's its limitations. It
protects only personal and individual liberties, it doesn't even deal with
groups. As a matter of fact the federalists a very entire political party as
some of you well know, you students of history. So this is a part of the
problem, that education should be taken care of, for instance. You should
not go through a twelve or sixteen year experience without knowing what
other people are really like, what the human condition was and is, that the
present really is the past, it's the child of the past. You can't divorce the
one from the other, and one can only secure his future through the
knowledge of the past, and so we have been unhistorical people in the
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 10
minds of many white folks and we've been here longer than nine-tenths
than most of you, and the institution which should do this and tell you
these things does not do it, so we have to go for ourselves.
00:28:05
We have to do it. We have to create out of this discontent something new.
This is the basis of creativity, is discontent and spontaneity, you better dig
that. It's very important for all people to know, that's what created America;
discontent and spontaneity. You cannot have newness, you cannot have
creativity, unless you have this and that's what we mean when we say
deep psychological revolt of the intelligence. You want to create
something out of this, that's legitimate, that's humane, that can be realized
in a human society, and hopefully can be extended to others who can
appreciate our experience.
00:28:48
But we must do it, we must do it as Albert Camus has pointed out that
man begins to exist as a free man when he says no to definitions, no to
prescriptions and limitations that have been placed on him by his
oppresses, and we consider white Americans our oppresses. They're
against the grain of the expansion of humanity. Every institution in
American life is against the grain of the expansion of humanity.
00:29:17
Every one of them. Be it political, economic, social, educational, or
otherwise. You wouldn't be sitting here, you wouldn't feel the way you did
if, as a child, you were taught the truth about American civilization, and if
you were given another frame of reference in terms of what it really means
to be human perhaps you could be towards other people, but you cannot
be humane because the whole relationship between black and white in
this country is based on an I-it rather than I-thou relationship and this is
the legacy of slavery. It's still with us.
00:29:53
In the mountains of books that you read in school, they haven't gotten
them straight in sociology yet. They're still creating terms: ghetto, culturally
deprived, and I never knew I was culturally deprived until I left Harlem.
Sociology professor told me that you don't have any culture. We're the
only human beings in the world without culture. It means you don't exist,
that's exactly what it means. Now I learned it everywhere else outside of
this society culture is defined as anything man made. It's a total
embodiment of a people's experience, that anything I make and create is
culture, is my peculiar experience as a human being and they tell you that
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 11
there are some culturally deprived people in the society who are called
Negros, and if anybody has created any culture of merit in this society, it's
black folk.
00:30:44
I can't think of anybody 00:30:44 else who's created anything that's
peculiarly American but black folk. So I didn't realize that I was culturally
deprived, I thought was rich in intangible culture. A lot of folks like that all
over the country feel that, then they go to college and they tell them, look
man you don't exist. That's real interesting. You know, and it comes out of
schools like this; Augsburg, University of Minnesota, Yale, Harvard.
They're making some adjustments over there now, but they do this, this is
a fact of American life that's why you can't deal with black people
emotionally.
00:31:23
You don't know anything about their emotional experience as human
beings so you can't understand it, you can't perceive it, except as its moral
through the gobbly goo of politicians, and those are the most dangerous
people in the world, in terms of articulating what the human equation is all
about. They are incapable of doing it because historically we have meant
so much to the political machinery of this country in terms of a football or
play with, you see, and so they can't be honest or earnest about dealing
with us as human beings, and they never have.
00:32:00
So I'd like to challenge young America, if you really believe in creating a
human society, I believe that you can do it, only you can do it. I think some
members of the older generations are incapable of doing it for a number of
reasons. They have too many moral hang-ups, they're responsible for all
the moral hang-ups that we have today. Some of you still have a chance
who have not been deeply infested with the racist concept of what it
means to live. There's a chance for you and I'm serious about this, and
folks, look at folks like me and thank you crazy you know because you see
there are two views of reality.
00:32:37
You have the bird's eye and I have the frog's eye, so we better meet at the
crossroads and find out what reality really is, but people have been taught
that they are secure and this security is really based on fear. Not breaking
out, not adventuring, not trying anything new, not discovering. That's what
all these institutions do. This is why we have no moral tone in the society
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 12
from religious life of the country because it's basically racist and it has an
educated function which it does not perform. It's as important as a school.
00:33:11
Reflect on that for a minute, that here are some people who are as
American as cherry pie in terms of the involvement of the American
society, and you know nothing about them. You can't understand them.
They won't even put us in the history books. There's no period in
American history in which you, that we haven't been involved in a
significant part of, it in every period in American history. You know, it really
sometimes want to make me cry when you really understand what history
is. I mean it's a human experience, and it's alright, we have a history of
political and territorial state and suppose it had to develop like that.
00:33:53
That's white nationalism, that's what you get and this tourist guide of
textbooks that you taught in high school, but I look at a part of American
history that perhaps is the most celebrated part in our nation's
background. I was reading some notes the other day, some old notes I
had from about five years ago in the cowboy movement in America, and
you know, celebrating the cowboy which is the most lionized movement of
our mythical past, you know, wasn't half so big as most folks think. It only
lasted three decades, last part of the nineteenth century.
00:34:28
Roughly 30,000 people and were involved in it, and an overwhelming
amount, disproportionate in terms of their relation to the population were
black folks, and I can remember about five years ago when Sammy Davis
played a TV role as a cowboy, folks were astounded. There can't be no
colored cowboy. That's not, that's very real they were over of them. They
won the West. The earliest Cowboys were black, from East Texas. Nearly
[Inaudible] Texas was a slave area. The early Bronco riders, you got the
bad man one of the most lyin eyes black Cowboys in history turns out to
be white. His name is Deadwood Dick. They made a lot of movies about
him, and Isaac [Inaudible] and Broncos Sam.
00:35:16
This, his is what we celebrate about American experience, but when
history became myths and legend, we disappeared completely. Now you
do have other remnants of other racial groups you even have the little
Chinese with the pigtail as always a cook who was out there, and the
Mexican and the gringo, and occasionally of course the Indian was still
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 13
killing him, you know, classic scene and all of this experience one of the
most renowned Cowboys in history just died in 1932.
00:35:44
His name was Billy Pickett. He rode with Will Rogers for 20 years. He put
the rodeo on the map in Europe and in Madison Square Garden the first
rodeo in Madison Square Garden, and there he was Billy Pickett stomped
to death by a horse and my old man 70 years old. We got pictures of
these folks, and you never knew they exist. Now that's human waiting
complexity the way America really is or really was and is today, but look
what people have done to it. Look how they've distorted reality in your
minds to make you think that cowboy means and this is the excerpt that
you take out from the classic scene of the West, this is John Wayne and
his two nieces you know, defending a wagon train against 5,000 charging
Indians, and they wipe them all out without reloading the guns. [Laughter
and Applause]
00:36:33,
I always say about you never know what to expect out of a Western now.
You know, any day now I look for Ben Cartwright [Inaudible] It could
happen the way they fix them up, you know. But look what happens and
it's distorts your concept of reality now this is something we all can relate
to the most lyin' eyes hero, folk hero, in American folklore is the cowboy. A
disproportionate number of them were black. As a matter of fact, there
was only one ethnic group larger than the black people and this was a
southern cracker. This is who made the cowboy movement from Texas,
that's where it started, and a black [Inaudible] you find the southern
cracker you find black folk, remember that, and that's who it was. It was
greater numbers and northern white's or even Mexicans or Indians in that
part the cowboy movement itself. But look what happens, and that was
only yesterday.
00:37:28
Not to mention serious things about the great political debates of this
country which you know nothing about historically. So it rules us out. So
we begin to see that we have to develop and interpret our own history
because we realize the importance of history, be it factual or romantic. It
has great deep psychological meaning to people. We realize that if you
give a man a history you must give him a personality, and if you extend to
him a personality, you must extend to him humanity, and if you recognize
your humanity that means you also recognize mine, and there's a limit to
what you can do to me and keep a clear conscience.
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 14
00:38:09
That's the importance of it so we aren't historic figures in the minds of
white people, so you cannot relate to us you can't begin to relate to chitlins
and hog maws and all these things that are part of our peculiar experience
you relate to it superficially when Tin Pan Alley and television and all these
folks get old to it, and tell you what we all about, and they don't even
understand it themselves the challenge to you is to begin right now if you
want a human society, to question the curriculum right here in this school
about what they're teaching you and you can extend it to anything not only
with black people, communism of Viet Cong or anything.
00:38:48
Tell me what these things are, really, I want to know. That's the beginning
of freedom, that's the beginning of justice and equality. There are a couple
of things I'd like to say before I close concerning something I read about
five or six years ago which really makes this very important comment on
the emotional life of America, in terms of the sickness, the disease of
racism of which all of us are victims.
00:39:28
I'm a victim of it to see my because my only frame of reference is race I
have no other alternative, you see, so one makes me racist in turn in
terms of reacting to racism. But really we're a sick society. Most of the
people in here are affected by it and black people mostly in terms of an
obvious way, but I think whites are in a more subtle in a more synthetic
way or perhaps more affected by racism than black people, and it grows
out of these things that I was alluding to the lack of recognition of one's
humanity.
00:40:06
About five or six years ago, a group of people very much like yourself who
happened to have been New York school teachers invited the Afro
American expatriate James Baldwin to come and talk to them. As Johnny
felt about the so-called Negro problem. How did he see it as a black artist
as opposed as a politician those are black politicians and all these people
who fight year in a year about civil rights bills and housing and all this
jazz? How do you feel about it Mr. Artist whose function it is to go beneath
the surface and deal with reality rather than just plain facts?
00:40:45
And Baldwin says something very interesting is it's very long text to these
school teachers in New York has about 55,000 school teachers, six
hundred of whom are black, so it gives you something of the genetic
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 15
composition of a crowd which attended its meeting about 5,000 were there
and he had a long text and a part of it really struck me and stuck with me
since that ever since I've read it, and it describes a lot of the way I feel
emotionally, if not intellectually about what this whole thing is, how I see
this illusion. It's a fantastical delusion which we mistake for reality.
00:41:23
He said a lot of things but among them and I should like to quote some of
the things that Baldwin said. For those of you are not familiar with Baldwin,
he's made a tremendous contribution in the area of provoking creativity
among certain white persons, namely the creative intellectual among white
people. He said, and I'm quoting a number of things, he said, "When I was
writing in Paris, I came to understand that the American white man has
long since lost his grip on reality. When I saw them over there buying
everything and insulting everybody, and the tragedy of it was that they
didn't even know that they were insulting people, and then I remember that
this was the way it was with me when they insulted me.
00:42:13
They didn't mean it, but they simply didn't recognize that I was human. I'm
still shocked by the fact that most white Americans sincerely believed that
the country was settled by Gary Cooper, and as far as I can tell they still
had like their political leaders based on how closely they resemble Gary
Cooper.
00:42:37
When I was very young I came to understand that some mistakes have
been made, some lies had been told. A lot of things that I was taught
about me simply was not true. For instance, I'm not happy and I never
touch watermelon for all sorts of reasons, and I'm not a n***** because if
I'm a n***** it means it says something basically wrong with you. You
created something you needed, and whatever a man creates is basically
an extension of himself. If you are compelled to lie about any aspect of
anybody's history therefore compelled to lie about it all and this means
that if I'm not what I've been told I am then you're not what you've been
told you are either.
00:43:13
If in some miraculous way the public school curriculum could be changed
tomorrow, and the real role of the American black man can be revealed
you would find that you'd not only be liberating the minds of black
Americans who know nothing about their history, but you'd also be
liberating the minds of white Americans who know nothing about their
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 16
history either. If I were teaching in the school where there were black kids
or any other school where there were black kids I would try to get them to
understand at the street that they live on, the house that they live in, the
jobs that their parents go to, the schools that they go to, and the
policeman on the corner was all a part of a criminal conspiracy to destroy
them.
00:43:55
But I would further try to get them to understand that the world is much
bigger, more beautiful, and more terrible than anything that they could
ever imagine but it's basically bigger and it's there for them to explore. So
where we are today is that you've got a whole country convinced that I'm a
n***** and they believe it and I don't now the battle is on.The real threat to
the destruction of America today is not Castro's Cuba, or Mao's China, or
Khrushchev's Russia, but sad and simple fact that Americans have
become victims of their own propaganda, their own brainwashing, their
own lies.
00:44:35
So then, if you have to convince yourself that I hold all that cotton in
Georgia and Alabama and Mississippi simply because I loved you, then
you've done something terrible to yourself. You're surely mad. You're
insane." Unquote. I believe that, that folks, when I was going out to lunch
they're crazy, collectively, that's what it means.
00:45:02
They cannot accept reality. In education, incidentally, it is the essence of
what is, not what ought to be. It's the substance of things. That's what's
supposed to be taught and that's a great and any educator out here would
argue, debate that with him, and let him dispute with me that the fact is
education based on what is not what ought to be, not what should be not
ideals but concepts. Ideals can be very dangerous.
00:45:31
So we want to spearhead a revolution in education in this country
beginning with ourselves. We want to educate ourselves. I have to know
myself. Self-knowledge is the beginning of that, understand what I'm all
about and extend my humanity to me to you.
00:45:52
We're gonna do this or die trying, we're gonna form it. The kind of activity
will shake up things so that we can make for creativity and bring about
newness and wholesomeness and a healthy viable human society and
you won't have to write laws and things and stuff like that. All you say,
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 17
what's a human being. He has a beating heart and living affections that's
enough for me. He has all the emotions from the tranquil to the
passionate, hostility, affections, loving you know the whole ball of wax.
That's what we're all about.
00:46:36
So we through the concept, the philosophical concept of black power
which is an extremely perverted word, gonna do that. If you knew history
you would know that this is not a new term. It's been in my vocabulary
since I was a sophomore in college. It was first pronounced at the National
Negro Convention in 1852 by Henry Highland Garnet. A great book work
on that by Richard Wright titled , "Black Power," great book, book 500
pages long. It was written just twenty years ago. They're very interesting.
So we're talking about the philosophical concept of black power, which
states in effect that we are talking about reclaiming our humanity,
self-realization self legitimization.
00:47:20
Stop being ashamed of being black because we realize that it's now
beautiful. It's peculiar and beautiful to our own experience. That's the kind
of black power we're talking about. We're talking about every experience
that we've gone through in this country, as human beings. So we're
making pronouncement to America as Langston Hughes did in the 1920s.
Poet laureate of Afro-American [Inaudibe] who recently died, the cultural
speaking voice of black 0 America during another period in our nation's
history when there was a great deal of cultural activity in America.
00:47:59
Great deal of creativity among black folks, that's the period your parents
know as roaring 20s, we call it the strolling twenties. Very interesting.
Created all that stuff that they celebrated that time in popular American
cultural store and Hughes was, if anybody knows anything about Langston
Hughes, the way he laments, there's always an air of hope of optimism
and whatever he pronounces no matter how sad it may seem on the
surface. There's like granite, feeling of optimism beneath it, and Hughes
said to America at that time, he said, you take on it as only as he could put
it in his inimitable folksy fashion.
00:48:44
So I'm gonna talk like folksy that's, language is a medium of one's culture
it's very important. Whether you say it like they do in New Jersey or in
Mississippi, it's still language. It tells you something about me as a human
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 18
being. I'm not worried about syntax and structure in this kind of stuff. This
is the way we talk that's the way Hughes wrote it.
00:49:00
He said to America:
“You've taken my blues and gone —
You sing 'em on Broadway
And you sing 'em in Hollywood Bowl,
And you mixed 'em up with symphonies
And you fixed 'em
So they don't sound like me.
Yep, you done taken my blues and gone.
You also took my spirituals and gone.
You put me in Macbeth and Carmen Jones
And all kinds of Swing Mikados
And in everything but what's about me —
But someday somebody'll
Stand up and talk about me,
And write about me —
Black and beautiful —
And sing about me,
And put on plays about me!
I reckon it'll be
Me myself!”
00:49:59
Thank you.
00:50:01
[Applause]
Mahmoud El-Kati, “Racism in Education” (transcript), page 19
Show less
Transcript of “People or Property: Law Enforcement in the Ghetto”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0364
Description: Ronald Edwards, a member of the Minneapolis Human Rights
Commission, discusses issues surrounding police presence in b... Show more
Transcript of “People or Property: Law Enforcement in the Ghetto”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0364
Description: Ronald Edwards, a member of the Minneapolis Human Rights
Commission, discusses issues surrounding police presence in black neighborhoods in a
morning panel moderated by Dr. Joel Torstenson. The panel was part of a day focused
on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968
May 15.
Duration: 01:03:56
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Joel Torstenson] I'm simply going to say that perhaps one thing that we
have been learning more than, more clearly than ever before during the
last year or two is that racism is an institutional phenomenon. We speak of
institutional racism and that this is something different from, although
related to, the psychological racism that you know occupies our mind and
being.
00:00:36
The institutional racism we mean of course, the fact, that virtually every
institution in American life is affected by certain racist assumptions and in
this session we're going to talk about the implications of institutional
racism so far as the law enforcement agencies are concerned. In a sense,
I suppose this is one of the most critical institutions in human relations
because it's at, sort of at the edge of the delicate balance between justice
and order and dignity and freedom on the one hand and security on the
other.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 1
00:01:26
Now I am not going to say any more about this, but I'm glad to to introduce
to you the next, the first speaker on the panel who is a member, as you
know, if you have read the papers of the Minneapolis Human Rights
Commission. He was a member of that for quite a long while when his
status was somewhat ambiguous for reasons that some of you most of
you know. He is also a community resource specialist for the Twin City
Opportunities Industrialization Center. This is an age of alphabets, TCOIC.
I thought I was gonna be up one up on you and give the name so that you
know what I was talking about and I turned out to expose my ignorance.
He was also board chairman of the Inner City Youth League of St. Paul
and has a certificate in community organization from the University of
Syracuse and this may interest some of you where he studied under Saul
Alinsky. I'm very happy to present to you Mr. Ron Edwards.
00:02:42
[Applause]
00:02:51
[Ronald Edwards] Thank you. I heard him say of the next I thought he's
gonna say the next President of the United States. I think most of us are
finished with our popsicles and now we can continue on. I am happy to be
able to get my blows in before Frank Kid gets here. Apparently Frank's
going to be a little late. I don't know what it is. We're going to discuss law
enforcement the ghettos and Frank being a Republican, you see I'm not
telling anything out of school here and with Frank being in Republican with
the statement made by Nicky Nixon up in Fargo a couple weeks ago you
know this time talking about that we're not really concerned with the
problems in the ghetto and the urban cities of our country but we must
maintain that seven to one ratio in missiles over the Communists.
00:03:36
Franklin probably has to get us directions on what to say here this
morning, you see. I think we want to take a position that we must maintain
law and order and I think we all read that don't we? We must maintain law
and order, is that right? In fact, all of you here that believe that raise your
hands would you please? You know that believing must maintain law and
order. Beautiful, beautiful. Let me see, what about justice?
00:04:05
Yeah because I mean, I would think this would be, you know, this would
be the proper thing to talk about because, let me see, without order there's
no degree of law and justice and without justice there is no degree of law
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 2
and order, wouldn't that be right? Or would would I be wrong making that
assumption.
00:04:22
Oh, well I was just wondering, I was just wondering where we were
coming from, because see in this country today we have gotten tired up in
this thing of talking about just law and order, we've forgotten justice, you
see, and I think that's become the theme now, you know, we talked about
themes for songs well that's become the theme for the politicians now it's
crime, street lawlessness, and maintaining law and order, you see, we
have no degree of justice and it's interesting today when you talk to your
police officials both federal and municipal and state that when you raise
this question of law and order, you see.
00:04:51
And you leave out that part of justice and they do just like you most of you
did here just now, they kind of nod their head and say right this is what we
have to have and then when you ask them well, what about justice and
they tell you that is the prerogative of the court. The court does this, the
court deals with justice, police officer doesn't deal with justice, you see,
and I think that's an amazing statement, you see.
00:05:12
If an officer's not concerned with justice I don't know how he could render
any degree of law and order. I know that sounds confusing, you see, well
that shows you what a confusing state our country's 0 in today. We are a
confused country, you know, anytime we have you know six people
running around with ambitions to be presidential candidates, you know, so
well they are presidential candidates but when you're president and talking
about tax plans they're talking about we must be in a confused state you
see.
00:05:35
On one hand we have someone talking about law and order, you know,
lawlessness in this street. Of course now I maintain that we've had
lawlessness in this country, you see, since 1619 at Jamestown, you see,
we got law an order, we got lawlessness in this country. In 1776 in Boston,
you see, we had law and order I mean we had lawlessness in this country.
I keep saying law and order they've got me brainwashed on that thing too,
but we had lawlessness in Washington DC in 1865 when they blew
Lincoln away, you see, and God knows we had lawlessness in Chicago in
1930, you see.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 3
00:06:04
And it's an amazing thing about lawlessness and see if we talk about
lawlessness now today in the country automatically just means we're
talking about black people, you see, we no longer talk about the Cosa
Nostra mafia, you see, when we talk about lawlessness we talk about
black people we've got an organized crime in this country, you see, and
black people really have never been a part of organized crime, now we
have contributed to it by playing policy, you understand, being involved in
narcotics and things like that, you understand, we've never handled with
top money, you see, but it was amazing that when you talk about
lawlessness in this country today, you see, you talk about automatically
everyone says black people, you understand, blacks in the streets, riots,
you understand, committing atrocious acts against the [inaudible] you see.
00:06:43
Now it's amazing that in 1930s, you see, when you had Al Capone running
about the country dropping people off in Lake Michigan, you see, we didn't
talk about sending all the Italians back to Italy, did we. Am I wrong?
Alright. And when Baby Face Nelson was ripping and running through the
Midwest, you know robbing banks and shooting people, you understand,
kidnapping people, we didn't talk about sending all the Scandinavians
back to Sweden.
00:07:01
[Laughter]
00:07:04
So it's amazing that, now with all this lawlessness, supposed lawlessness
in the street, you understand, that someone like Edwin Willis down there in
Louisiana who was chairman of the Judicial Committee for the House of
Representatives, I believe talks about detention centers, you see. And I'm
not clear in my mind what he means by detention centers, you see,
detention centers, now he said that the reason that this bill was being
talked about in committee, you see, is because there was reason to
believe that there was going to be some type of real activity on the part of
black people in this country, you see.
00:07:37
When I maintain the Ku Klux Klan has been maintaining a degree of
criminal activity in this country for the last thirty years you see, we didn't
talk about detention centers, why we can't even get an anti-lynching bill in
this country, you understand, and I'm amazed at that.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 4
00:07:48
Well we finally got around to open housing, you see, and now isn't that a
beautiful thing. You've got to have a law so I can live next door to you.
That's really something, that's amazing, you see. Of course now when we
talked about you people passing the law or some of your friends in the
south [inaudible] hang me, you understand, that's less ridiculous, you
know, those types of things don't happen, you know, but I guess this all
ties in with law and order, you see, and we're really hung up on this thing
of law and order in this country.
00:08:30
and I guess now that we're supposed to get to the [inaudible] shouldn't be
at the point now where I should be talking about law enforcement
agencies of our country. Now see what we should have had here at this at
this particular thing was that we should have been able to have a black
police officer from the Minneapolis Police Department to come out here
and come talk to you, but they seemingly have so few of them in the
department, you understand, I guess that'd be pretty hard to do.
00:08:37
It would probably be nice to have a black fireman out here too to talk to
you, but they don't have any black firemen at all in the fire department, so
that's going to be pretty difficult. Of course now let me see, I'm trying to
figure out where I'm at. I'm trying to see if I'm in Birmingham, Alabama or
Minneapolis, Minnesota Where am I? Is this, which is this? Right, right,
and this the land of the Hubert Humphrey, the great liberal, isn't that right?
00:08:57
[Laughter]
00:08:59
Yeah, right, right. I was just trying to get my [inaudible] together I want you
to understand, I just didn't get here. I've been here 22 years, you see. I
just didn't get here on the cotton barge.
00:09:08
[Laughter]
00:09:09
I've been here a long time. And that brings me to another point [inaudible]
when we talk about length of time that an individual has been in a certain
particular place I guess this gives him credentials, you understand, to
address himself to particular problems and I've always been amazed at
the incident in Chicago in 1966, you see, when we had someone with first
and second-generation East-European, you understand, we're talking
about we don't want them to live next door to us, you see, and I thought
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 5
that was amazing because [inaudible] same very people they were
howling at you, understand, and maybe one of my black uncles was the
one that opened the concentration camp gate for him to come on out.
00:09:44
Did you pick that up? Right right, no I'm just wondering about you know
who is what, because see now we've been here all what, well some
people say 400 years some say 355 years, you know, whatever what it is
we've been here, you see. We've been here, you see. We just didn't come
over, we didn't come over during the potato famine, you understand.
00:10:02
[Laughter]
00:10:04
[Inaudible] We didn't come over doing the religious persecution and you
know by the Church of England, understand, we didn't come over then,
you see, so I'm just trying to figure, you know, who's what, you
understand, and what rights do we have? Of course then I know that we
have the Bill of Rights and the Constitution and that guarantees us all the
rights as the same as anyone else's, now is that true?
00:10:29
Close to, right, but does it, and I why wonder why that is. Could this be a
part of institutional racism? Do you think that's what it could be? Of course
now I know that not always concurred that there is racism in this country,
white racism in this country. I mean is that an accurate statement was that
an accurate statement by the Kerner Commission but there is racism,
white racism, in this country. I see some gentleman over there looking
very, very hardcore, they look almost like right-wingers, but I'm wondering,
I'm just trying to [inaudible].
00:11:09
I am confused, you see, and I've only have six generations of people in
this country and I'm confused what's happened, you know, you see,
because see we were talking about that there was, you know, there was
what there was racism, white racism in this country you know way back in
the 1960s and the fifties you see and [inaudible] called you crazy said you
know you should be sent off to the nuthouse you see, then we came along
[inaudibe] McCarthy you see, Ed was the one for Wisconsin not the one
from here and we talked about communism, we had the 00:11:35,390 -->
00:11:38,090 big purges and things and we have McCarthy hearings, you
understand, we purged X number of people out of state department and
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 6
things like that, you understand, you know say the people had to have
loyalty testing, that type of thing, you know, right, is that right?
00:11:48
Let me ask you something. Do you feel that that that is the right type of
procedure under this democracy to make a man take a loyalty oath? You
don't think so, and then you do believe that a man should be able or
should be allowed to practice any type of political philosophy that he so
desires, isn't this right? Well why don't we outlaw the Communist Party in
this country?
00:12:16
Or am I wrong, the Communist Party hasn't been outlawed? I'm now trying
to see if we have any students of political science in here, do we have
any? Right. [Inaudible speaking from the audience] Right, the Ku Klux
Klan registers too, don't they?
00:12:38
[Laughter]
00:12:42
[Inaudible] Like I said, I'm confused at what goes on in this country, and
I'm amazed. But now I guess we're talking about law enforcement as I
said, I would have been hopeful that we're talking about law enforcement
in the ghetto and would have had an opportunity to have a professional
law enforcement officer here so he could, well not defend it, you
understand, we never want the department, the police department to
defend what they're doing, you see.
00:13:05
But, you know, to speak to the question of what the police department
does in the ghetto, how it handles crime in the ghetto opposed to a crime,
you know, what happened out here on [inaudible]. Because we know that
both of them are handled the same, isn't that right? I think that you are all
familiar and some people had asked me to address myself of this, of the
situation that has happened in regards to the four Golden Valley
policemen. These are the fellows that were coming down the street, they
had been, let me see now they'd been to a place, they'd been to a party in
St. Louis Park, which is, now St. Louis Park is right next to Golden Valley,
isn't that right?
00:13:40
That's going west from here, right. And they had come into Minneapolis,
you see, and [inaudibe] going back out to Golden Valley by way of
Plymouth Avenue. Usually Olson Memorial Highway. And what happened,
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 7
the car broke down. I know that all of you know this, but I'm just, you
know, helping you along. And what happened was that they were coming
down Plymouth Avenue and I think the car broke down or something.
Stopped around [inaudible], something like that you know.
00:14:05
And let me see now, they were going on Plymouth, and they coasted onto
a side street and they were going to a filling station, you see, for
assistance, that type of thing and what happened is that some gangsters,
black gangsters, you see. No really, I guess that's what the chief of police
said they were. You understand, [inaudible] you understand ambush types
like that thing goes on in Vietnam every day and robbed them of $126, you
see.
00:14:33
Now what happened, I guess there's three black women you know we just
can't accept these black [inaudible] we cannot accept the credibility that's
black women, you understand, first of all I mean, we're talking about three
black women opposed to three guardians of the law, four guardians of the
law, pardon me, but what happened, these women said and maintained
that the officers had made derogatory remarks to them and in fact put their
hands on them, you see, and they went down to the police station to make
a complaint you see, I mean, this is a usual procedure, you know, under
our system you see and they got down there.
00:15:01
Well I don't know what happened, if the police department and I know
they're having a 9 budget problem. Now I don't know if they didn't have
any pencils or pads and what it was, but they weren't able to take a
complaint from the women, you see, so he told them to come on back
because I think that was on a Thursday night or something. He told me
come back down on Monday, you see, and go to the city attorney who is I
guess, you would call what, the chief law enforcement officer for the city of
Minneapolis, you see, I guess that's the proper term, and to comeback
down and to give him a statement, you see, on what took place.
00:15:30
When he got down there, let me see now, the city attorney was in his
office and they had their attorney with them. Some of us do know the
game, you've got to carry somebody with you. You don't know what they
might pull off while you're down there. They went in and they recited the
story again to and repeated the story again, and after they'd gotten
through telling him what had happened and he looked over to the
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 8
inspector who was there that Friday night, you understand, and he said, is
that what they told you?
00:15:53
Automatically I guess that he was questioning the credibility of these four
or these three women and he said, "Yeah," said something like that. So
then the city attorney said, "Well let me go down the hall and talk to a
couple of the judges and see that if it's legal for me to drop a complaint,
you see." Now I'm confused by the system because this man, I'm quite
sure, this man had at least four years of law, didn't he, and I know he has
a library down there that has X number of law books, you understand, if he
can read all you just take the law book out and just browse through it, but
he said he's going now to talk to the judge, and I guess he went down and
talked to a couple of the judges, and the judge, well, spoke rather harshly
to him.
00:16:32
I guess this kind of ruffled the assistant city attorney's feathers a little bit
and then what he finally said, he said, well he looked at his watch and we
are on this thing of nine to five, you know, even dealing with law and order
and he looked at his watch, he said, "Well it says now, you know, I'm
really I'm tired. I put in a hard day, you see, and why don't you come on
back down tomorrow and I will, you know, if I can find someone to make
up this complaint.
00:16:53
Well, the women didn't go back down, you understand, now I know that
some of us can be sympathetic for the reason of them not going back
down, others of us probably can't, but see it's just part of the runaround
you get you see from the establishment, that's part of the thing you can
forward to. You see I've always maintained that, and we know how
efficient the law-enforcement agencies are in dealing with the black man
who's committed a crime against white society, you see. We know how
efficient they are, you know, we know the man wastes no time, you
understand, in apprehending you and bringing you to trial and taking you
on off to penitentiary, you see, because the other amazing thing about
that, and this is again in Minnesota, you see, and this is probably one of
the most liberal places in the country, the United States of America today,
isn't that right?
00:17:37
We'd all say that, I know, particularly those of us that are wearing, well I
don't see any Humphrey buttons. But, I know I sound facetious, but I don't
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 9
mean to be. But you know that's, that's part of the game. I did not say
what I was going to say. Probably put me in bad with certain people but,
yeah well I don't know 0 if I don't know if I should say that. I don't know
how well, I don't know how well you people would take that and what I'm
trying,
00:18:18
I'm trying to start waiting for Frank Kent to come in because I know he has
some interesting things to tell you on what his department is doing over
there, that's the State Department on human and civil rights, I believe it is
and it addresses itself to all the racial problems in this state. Of course I
know that I don't know why we have such a department as that in the state
of Minnesota because we don't have any problems here I think we all
realize that. Isn't that right?
00:18:45
There's one thing I like about this group. We're in the total agreement on
that, that we have no problems and that the city of Minneapolis has no
problems, you understand, and that law enforcement here is a beautiful
thing, it really is. No it is, really it is as far as law and order thing isn't it?
And it's a beautiful thing and I think it's something that we, that we all
need, you know, like I said I'm still sitting and waiting for Frank Kent I
don't, I don't want to bore you with the conversation and I know that you're
all fimilar with the thing of law and order. I have something I really want
to say and I'm trying to test the group out to see if I should say it.
00:19:28
[Inaudible speaking and laughter]
00:19:35
You're begging to good, that's the reverse thing, I should be doing that,
you see, but no, I think that really, I know that this question will come up
for many of you, what can we do you? You see, this is the thing we all see
nowadays. It first used to be, what, you know, what's the problem?
Nowadays, what can we do, and it's amazing, I really couldn't tell you what
you can do, you see, because we, you know we have all these laws on the
books addressing ourselves to several human rights in this country, but
apparently the police departments in this country do not adhere to that and
one other point I would like to bring up and this is something that's rather
close to my heart, it's rather amazing and I see it happening all the time
and it's there again it's in line with this thing of lawlessness in this country
and it's in regard to the arms race that's going on in America, you see.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 10
00:20:28
A lot of us are fools to think, you know that only an arms race is going on
between this country and communism you see what we got arms race
going on a here, you know, while you go out in the suburbs and you've got
the nice little grandmother, you know 65 years old, man she's out to the
rifle range, typical range. Thirty-eight in your hand, you understand,
shooting your targets, you see, now, the reason that is given for this and I
think that was all what there was a there was a film on this on NBC, I
guess a couple months ago or PBL and they were discussing that
particularly around the Detroit area that people were concerned with an
outbreak again of racial strife in the Detroit area and that it was necessary
for the people living in the suburbs to arm, now, what I'm trying to do.
00:21:10
I haven't found any documentation on it yet, I'm trying to find out just how
many groups, you understand, car loads of blacks, you understand, and
past three summers [inaudible] that's taken place in this country, you see,
have in fact, you know, went out of the inner core area, you know, into the
suburbs, you understand, burning looting, killing, this type of thing.
00:21:34
Unfortunately, I haven't been able to come up with anything on that. Now if
anyone here has any, and I know this when questions come from the
audience, but someone here will have knowledge of that 0 which would be
beautiful in that time we can debate that point, but it's amazing that people
are arming out there in Detroit there they say that they're preparing for the
black onrush and like I say again, I'm not clearing myself because I don't
know, with the exception of the [inaudible] with Detroit, some of us are.
00:21:57
And because the geographical location and the way the ghetto was
situated in Detroit it does stretch as far as the northern city limits of the city
of Detroit. Consequently, in Detroit, there might have been a spilling over
of some type of black-white confrontation, understand, maybe a couple
care loads of blacks did go into suburban areas, but now we come to a
city like Minneapolis, where people are arming where we have little
paramilitary groups out in places like Golden Valley and Richfield and
Bloomington you understand, and it's what we call gearing up, you see,
people were just gearing up, I don't know for what, of course now the
right-wingers tell you we're gearing up for the Communist invasion from
within.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 11
00:22:34
You see, and I know that some of you are familiar with the John Birch
Society and some of you familiar with the Blue Book and that's not a Bible
either, and you know some of the material that has been distributed by the
right-wing parties in this country addresses itself to that, in fact, there's
been a Chinese landing, you know, see thousands of Chinese have
landed in Mexico and will now be pushing north into the United States of
America and that in fact the State Department has been responsible for
bringing Africans in, now this is to show you how ridiculous this is, have
been responsible for bringing Africans in and and disguising them as
migrant workers when in fact they're really Congolese paratroopers, you
see.
00:23:19
[Laughter]
00:23:22
And what they have done is they have brought them in, and with the
communists pushing in from the south in Mexico and with the Congolese
paratroopers pushing across from the east to west, you understand, that
the country is being threatened, you see, government in Washington will
no longer be standing and I don't want you to think I'm getting off track
because this is in line with with law enforcement, you see, and with these
types of things and people are really gearing up in the country, you see,
we're buying arms you know sales of what about percent in some areas,
you see. People are just buying up all their arms they possibly can.
00:23:54
Now the thing that is beyond me, you see, now I know how fine the
fighting man, you understand, the black man is you know in Vietnam, you
understand, see the man you [inaudible] finally came out, you understand,
so this man is an excellent fighter, all the crack units of our armed forces
you know 101st, 196th, [inaudible] brigade, the 82nd, these types of units
are made up anywhere from fifty, sixty, seventy percent black, you see, so
in other words knowing that we have expertise, you understand, in
warfare, you see, and yeah I look [inaudible] figures came out on, you
know number of people that were killed last year in the riots and
disturbances and I think it was something like what 83, you know, eighty
blacks and three whites and [inaudible].
00:24:37
You know, really I am you know, now look at what happened in
Orangeburg I think that was what in April this year, Orangeburg, South
Carolina, you see, and this was when the police department down the
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 12
State Highway Patrol and others said that they were fired upon, by those
black students down there on the University of South Carolina State
College and that it was necessary for them to return.
00:24:56,030 I think they killed what three and wounded thirty-seven that's a grand total
of forty and the point I always wanted to raise was that I'm quite sure that
of all those 40 individuals who were killed and wounded but all of them are
armed to the teeth. I mean that would, will not be correct in assuming that,
you see. No, because I think that ties in with the AR-15 rifle thing
[inaudible] that you're having, you know, police department says well what
this is actually for, this is for sniping. I don't know how closely some of you
follow this AR-15 [inaudible] particularly in St. Paul, but you see the man
was talking about that this rifle was for sniping and for criminals who were
barricaded, you understand, behind walls, walls of brick and granted and
that type of thing and it was interesting I had opportunity to be at a at a
Civil Rights Commission hearing, St. Paul Civil Rights Commission here in
St. Paul, last, I think, Wednesday or Thursday, and they had some experts
from the University of Minnesota and other concerned residents who had
certain knowledge of the workings of this AR-15 and was amazing, they
were talking about the AR-15 as it is fired and as it propels itself through
the air will disintegrate to a certain degree.
00:26:06
So a person raised the question you see, to a police officer, what was his
name? Alright, it slips my memory right now. But they raised the question
to this officer that if this bullet was disintegrated, you see, in flight, you
understand it would disintegrate on impact, you understand, how, you
know, you have a criminal barricaded behind a brick wall, you see. what
do you expect this bullet to do, you see. Sergeant was not concerned with
that.
00:26:29
So the man went on to say, well, you know is it not true that the AR-15
bullet, and I believe it's a 22.3 caliber, you understand, that's hitting you
anywhere, you understand, in your in your body, you know, the shock
itself would be enough to kill individual [inaudible], right? That's the
purpose of it, you see. Now, you have the same officer, one of his
colleagues came on later on and he went on to say that the purpose of the
police department was to wound, you see, not to kill, you see. Our
business is to would and apprehend. I thought that was beautiful.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:27:04
Well this shows you the inconsistency and the credibility gap in the police
department even, you see. People couldn't even get together on that
statement, but I think one of the most dastardly statements I heard, it was
the last event of the evening and they had these real policemen, real
policemen, I think that only thing, and he probably came along about 23
years, 24 years too early, you know, or too late, too late rather, because
the only thing he liked, you understand is the black suit, you understand,
with the armband with the swastika and jackboots.
00:27:35
It's the only thing he liked, so a young, and this is a white folk who raised
this question by the way, he said, well tell me, he said, give it a situation,
there's a riot situation, and he was asking this in regards to the deaths in
say Detroit, Michigan and if we know that everyone that was killed there,
with the exception police, was classified as a rioter, or an arsonist, or a
looter we all know that. So he raised this question and said the situation
that was to say to happen here in st. Paul and an individual who was,
happened to be an innocent bystander, you understand, was mistakenly
shot down, how would he be classified in the police report?
00:28:11
Would he be classified as an innocent bystander would he be classified as
a looter and arsonist. So the officer said, well we just have to classify him
as a looter. You know, and I think what that type of mentality on the part of
police departments, you see, because what does this do for the family of
an individual, you see, we know how our neighbors gossip, you know, and
you know a Tom Jones and shot down and paper, you know, the paper
carriage store the next day that he was shot down because he was
looting, when in fact he was on his way to work.
00:28:41
I mean they had a situation like that in Detroit, it's amazing. Let me speak
to that, that fella he was deaf and dumb and he was on his way to work, 6
o'clock in the morning a lunch pail hand you see and national guardsman
was behind him. Now what the original story was from national guardsman
is he called this man to halt, you see, and the man had his back to him, he
admitted, but he called to him to halt, you see, and the man broke and ran
and he found it necessary to shoot him, killed him.
00:29:04
What happened, someone managed to, someone did do some
investigation, and this is all in the current report, this is documented, you
see, so I'm not telling you any communist tales. So they did an
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 14
investigation and found out you know, to their dismay, that in fact this
fellow was a deaf-mute, you see, couldn't hear, you know, couldn't talk
and the statement read that the, when the national guardsman called out
for him to halt, that the man did have his back turned to him, and he broke
and ran, you see, and then we have the situation in Newark, you see, this
was the statement given right from the the Director of the Newark Police
Department, you see, he was talking about that he had received a call that
there was, the tension was rising in one of the particular housing projects
in Newark he rushed to the scene.
00:29:53
His commander in chief of the police department, I guess that's part of his
job, and when he arrived he said, you know, there were all, at least 125
policemen in the streets, crouched behind cars, guns at ready, he walked
up to one of the sergeants said, what's the problem, you know, and he
says, there've been shots fired, you know, [inaudible], you know, sweat
running down his face, you understand.
00:30:12
Makes me, I'm trying to figure out who has the training, you understand,
you know. That man who's sitting up in the window laughing him, the
policeman out there with a gun in his hands. I'm trying to figure out which
way this thing runs. But anyways, the director went on to ask me what the
problem was and had the sniper been cited, and he said no, no, no, we're
closing in on him, you see. Yeah, right, right, we're closing in on him. Now
what happened is just at that time, two shots were fired, you see, and
around the corner came a national guardsman, you understand, in full
flight.
00:30:43
The director [inaudible], "What's the problem? What's the problem? You've
been fired on, you've been fired on?" You know, and he said, "No, no, I
fired on the sniper," you see, and the director said, "Where, where is he?"
He said, "He's up in that window," you see, and he said, "Did he fire on
you first?" He said, "Well no, he stuck his head out the window, and I've
been told that no one was to be allowed to look out those windows, so I
fired on him," you see.
00:31:01
Now what, that automatic reaction, you see, alerted every policeman in
the street. Now, what had happened, and this was, you have to remember
that this was, this conversation was just a second type of conversation,
five or ten or fifteen seconds and meanwhile, the police, the national
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 15
guard, and [inaudible] rushed up and opened fire on this building, you see.
Not because any shot had come from the building, but because this
national guardsman, being that he was inexperienced, you see, was
merely carrying out the orders of his superiors. Superior told him, you
know, don't let nobody look out the window, and this boy apparently didn't
have no sense to say get back, he just pulled the trigger, you see, and we
see what kind of reaction this got, you know, now these types of things
happen, of course now we know that our police department have been
appropriated some forty million dollars in funds for police training, anti-riot
training, and the like, and I think that's that's beautiful because I will
remember last year and I think some of you will also remember that when
they were talking about appropriating forty million dollars for a rent control
bill in Congress, you understand, [inaudible].
00:32:04
You know [inaudible] the man talks about appropriating forty million dollars
for better law enforcement we had no problem getting it through at all. Of
course then, too, if you know anything about Congress you know they had
a situation there where they had decided to build a beauty salon for some
of the women representatives, you know, I think we have about six now,
you know, and I think it ran something like $255,000, $300,000, you know,
and I think the bill went through something like a minute and five seconds,
you see, they had no problem there.
00:32:37
We talk about fixing up somebody's hair, you understand, we're talking
about buying more sophisticated type of weapons to kill people, we have
no problems, but see when we talk about addressing ourselves to the
problems of stopping rats from biting and eating up babies, you see, and
the man tells us to go get some more cats, you see, and I think that's
another interesting thing I'll never forget it and this is another thing and I
do this in closing.
00:32:54
I see that my colleague Mr. Kent has not arrived and I think there's a
situation with Martin Luther King, and I think it's amazing here again, I
think this is probably the note to close off on, talking about effective police
departments and law enforcement agencies in this country and it's now
what five weeks after the assassination of King and apparently the law
enforcement agencies of this country are no closer to the assassin or the
assassins then they were that [inaudible] Ramsey Clark got on TV and
said, "We're just hours away from."
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:33:28
I'm gonna tell you what that type of statement tells me, there is a credibility
gap amongst law enforcement agencies in this country and the massroots
of people, the mass grassroots of people. that means both black and
white. You see Ramsey Clark said we'rre just hours away from the
assassins, and of course it was interesting that the first statement that
ever came out of there were that, that we have the man flanked, we're just
always away from capturing him, and it was just one individual, you see,
this was not a conspiracy. Of course now that has kind of changed, you
know, because we went so far now that someone like Lester Maddox, and
here's a man that wouldn't even fly the flags of this state and the American
flag at half-mast in Georgia during the day of King's funeral, who has now
went on to say the King in fact was assassinated by Communists, you
see, King and fell into disfavor with the Communist Party and they
assassinated him, see.
00:34:18
Of course now what that type of thing, that's the same type of thing that
came out the Kennedy assassination, as you remember. Of course
Maddox went on so far to say that in fact he had known, he knew for a fact
that this man who had fled to Cuba, you understand, of course Fidel did a
nice job when he said he's here.
00:34:32
Black people American [inaudible], you see, so we got off that kick, but
now I think what's an interesting thing, and I know I don't know how
closely some of you have followed it, and I think this is in line with what
you talk about credibility gap amongst the ghetto and the police
departments of our country. You remember the situation with the Sergeant
Bradshaw in Memphis. How many of you are familiar with that? Raise your
hands if you are, how many [inauible] with Sergeant Bradshaw. See the
Minneapolis Tribune stopped printing that.
00:35:00
No, no Sergeant Bradshaw, as you remember, I don't know, and I listened
to it very closely. The first hour was after the King assassination, in fact
the first hour afterward. The bulletins, you know, came over the radio that
King had been assassinated [inaudible] everybody went into their tear bit,
you know, and they went on to say the King had been assassinated and
that in fact the Memphis Police Department were now in pursuit, you
understand, of the assassin who was driving a white Mustang, and this
report was coming via police radio, you see, right into the central police
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 17
radio at the central police headquarters, and that the police officers were
in pursuit of this, car white Mustang and in effect, the bulletin came in
about five minutes later that a blue Pontiac had closed on the white
Mustang and it opened fire, you understand, and this thing became very
dramatic something like out of a Cecil B. DeMille picture, you know, we're
becoming very dramatic now.
00:35:52
We're in pursuit of the villain and then you hear more about it, you see, so
I remember about four days later it happened to come out that what had
happened, you know, you know how newspaper people are, they will do a
lot of snooping, you see, and what happened is that someone managed to
do a little snooping and they found out that the individual who was relaying
this report of this chase, which later turned out to be a myth was a
Sergeant RB Bradshaw, you see, so when first questioned on it,
Bradshaw denied even being in the area, he said, he wasn't even
[inaudible] what you're talking about.
00:36:17
But finally, someone trapped him on that so then he admitted. Now this
was a story that he gave, you see, he was riding along in this patrol car,
you understand, and I must press point that this [inaudible]. You see, I
have to laugh because it's so tragic. Sergeant Bradshaw said he was
riding along in his patrol car and a young man pulled up next to him with a
radio ban in his car and said he was receiving a report over his radio from
another ham operator who was observing this chase, you see.
00:36:46
Now, Sergeant Bradshaw relayed to his police dispatcher, you
understand, this chase as it was related to here by the young man who it
was being relayed to him from someone else, you understand, it could not
be seen, you see. Now what this did though, see, we have to understand
this, we have to remember that three days later that the white Mustang
that was supposedly registered to that mythical individual named Eric
[inaudible] what his name was. This automobile was in Atlanta, you see,
and which Atlanta is southeast of Memphis, you see, now what probably
happened there is that everyone was concentrating north of Memphis, you
see, in pursuit of the assassin, you understand, my man got in his car and
drove on out south, went on back, went onto Atlanta all about his
business, you see.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:37:27
I'm just saying what this did. Now what happened, apparently this has not
even been pursued, you see. On here, Bradshaw, a veteran I guess some
15 years on the Memphis Police Department and would allow itself to be
drawn into things such as that, you see. Now first of all of course the man
denied, first of all he denied that he was even there, and then finally when
pressured, he admitted that he was there and this is the type of effective
police work that he did. I say this distant place in Memphis, Tennessee, I
know this has nothing to do, this is irrelevant to what goes on here in
Minneapolis you see, because we do have such an efficient and effective
police department, just wanted to let you know what some of the feeling is.
00:38:06
Now a lot of people have said that, well you know King is gone, the
concept of non-violence is gone and this might be true or it might not be
true. Well I maintain that if we're going to continue to talk about this, if
you're going to continue to talk to black people in this country about any
degree of law, order, and justice, you see, I think that you should move
with all due speed or the establishment should move with all due speed to
make an attempt to apprehend, you see, the assassin and those people
that conspired against, and participated in the death for Martin Luther
King, you see.
00:38:29
This has not been done. It's going to be pretty hard for me to accept this
thing that we're going to have a degree of law and order and justice in this
country until it can be proven to me that in fact both the federal and local
agencies in this country are doing everything within their power to bring
the assassins or assassin to justice. This is not being done apparently. It's
interesting that with the exception of the weeks, that first week, week and
a half that followed the King assassination papers have really played this
thing now, you see. No longer even talk about the Martin Luther King
assassination, you see.
00:39:20
Now the only thing that disturbs me with this type of, this type of attitude
on the police departments, with this type of lack of concern on the part of
police departments in this country and particularly the federal agencies
FBI CIA, I think it's going to be rather hard for those types of bigots and
racists who now see themselves as being the executor, the judge, and
executor who now feel they will take it upon themself in each city
throughout this country to rid that particular city of those particular black
militants, you see, or particular black leaders, you see, because the man
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 19
says well they assassinated King, you know, police department have not
pursued with any degree of effectiveness the apprehension of the
assassin.
00:40:04
So maybe I can take upon myself, you understand, you shoot a Harry
Davis or a [inaudible] Davis. [Inaudible] take it upon myself to blow away
Ralph Abernathy, you see, right. Now you talk about lawlessness, you
see, that is the first step towards lawlessness, because then what
happens reprisals beget reprisals, you see, because as far as I'm
concerned, and I don't see how, you know, that a George Wallace, you
understand, can survive through the summer, I don't, particularly if the
police departments in this country not do a better job in regards to finding
the assassin of Martin Luther King, you see, I don't see, because
apparently in this country is what we're playing tit for tat.
00:40:49
I'd say it like that sounds like a child's game, it shows one has a child's
mentality that's what we're playing for, tit for tat, and I would like at this
time to close out, I see the Frank has not arrived.
00:41:00
I know that there are some questions, if there any. If it's alright with the
moderator I would try to respond to them to the best of my ability.
00:41:08
Questions are in order.
00:41:11
There's a question back there. [..] Yes.
00:41:13
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:41:31
Well I really couldn't speak for Dick, but I would presume that he did. I
think that he had made an attempt, he has made an attempt to contact
women who are involved but as far as an official version you have to
remember that see that the police probably didn't take any statement from
those women, so the only official version that you have was the one that
was taken by the police, pardon me, police department from the four
Golden Valley policemen, you see, so he's just merely going by the official
version that he was given.
00:41:57
[Inaudible question from the audience]
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 20
00:42:02
Not to my knowledge, no.
00:42:08
[moderator] We have about a minute left until we're supposed to assemble
in the other building, the other room. [there is crosstalk from the audience
noting that they still have about 15 minutes left] Oh, then we’ve got plenty
of time.
00:42:28
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:42:34
Minneapolis Police Commission? Minneapolis doesn't have a police
commission, you mean police department. Oh yes, I guess every police
department in every major city in America has some type of community
relations program, I guess. I mean, I'm not saying that the Minneapolis
Police Department is breaking his neck. Of course, you know, I know
we're tied up in this thing, particularly in this town right now, in this thing of
sensitivity training, you see, of course the Minneapolis Police Department
would be pretty hard-pressed to get anyone from within its range to
conduct any class in sensitivity training.
00:43:11
I think we all understand that, you know, because only I can give you the
necessary sensitivity training about me, you see, in order for the
Minneapolis Police Department come out for those types of, and this is
part of their community relations classes, you see, they'd have to get
some black patrolmen down and I think they only have four or five. That's
out of 804 men, I guess that's not bad. Yes.
00:43:29
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:43:31
Minneapolis police federation, I've always maintained that in every city, in
every society, particularly every city you always have to have that
particular instrument, you understand, that mouths the racist types of
slogans, you understand, and apparently the Minneapolis federation is
that particular institution in Minneapolis.
00:43:49
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:43:57
No, they've called, they're called [inaudible] understand it that they have,
well of course you have to realize that in regards to Minneapolis police
department that the sensitivity training and dealing with minorities has
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 21
00:44:32
been going off for last all four years in the Minneapolis Police Department.
That's not, that doesn't mean, that doesn't say that all the students are
receptive to the types of classes that are conducted. I think that's very
apparent. I think they've tried a new approach now to the extent that
they're going into the black community and they're getting those type of
responsible black leaders to come down to conduct classes. Yes.
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:44:38
Well I would be quite sure, knowing how the system is made up, I'm quite
sure that he's probably called [inaudible] for that decision, yeah. I'm quite
sure the Bar Association will have me in for a private meeting, you
understand, and the boys will iron out their differences. Yeah.
00:44:55
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:44:59
Well yeah, we seem to have a problem I guess with the test. Particularly
the oral portions of the test. Yeah.
00:45:15
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:45:28
Well, I don't think there was problem with other members of the
committee, I think it should be noted here that when I threw that out, you
understand, none of the other commission members, none of my other
comrades or colleagues, you understand, responded to say they also
would like to ride along. Everyone remained pretty silent on this thing. Well
I think that if someone else on the commission had thrown it out it would
been, you know, an accepted thing and we would've had no problem, but
[inaudible] understand, it seems to me that my personality rubs the
Minneapolis Police Department wrong way, you know.
00:45:59
But of course Calvin has said that if I had wanted to I could have come
along, of course I just threw that out as, that was just a diversionary thing.
I really want to ride what the man, you know, you ride with him and, you
know, the fellas start talking about you and neighborhood, you know talk
about you snitching [inaudible] of course the other thing was I know,
knowing the Minneapolis Police Department I would have hated to be
riding along one night and, you know, hospital reports the next day in the
paper you would've read that I was, that what had happened, that the
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 22
police car that I was riding in and it came up on some burglary suspects,
and I was caught in the crossfire, you see.
00:46:27
[Laughter]
00:46:32
Yes.
00:46:33
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:46:39
Well, madam, first of all, I'm not a part of that organization, that
paramilitary organization. The status was one of maintaining some degree
of cool and calm in the community. Of course what had happened, I think
first of all the Minneapolis Police Federation became dissatisfied with it. I
guess that the group had hatched off some white folks out in the
community who really didn't have and business being out there at three,
four o'clock good morning, these were married men, wives and children
home. Apparently the Police Federation was a little dissatisfied with the
actions carried on by the Protection Unit and then with the Golden Valley
incident coming up you understand apparently that blacks have taken law,
order, and justice into their hands and this is the things you cannot tell me
you don't know that and so it was necessary to well put some restrictions
on the patrol to the extent that has been cut down in numbers that new
guidelines, new criteria has been given to the patrol to the extent of the
things they should be able to do, they can do, you know, those types of
things.
00:47:39
So in other words they've been rendered totally ineffective.
00:47:54
[Question from the audience] Are you at all hopeful about the betterment
of the recent [inaudible] in Minneapolis. Do you think that some progress
is going to be made? Real progress.
00:48:00
Yes, they make progress from year to year, I guess. But you're talking in
regards to better racial relations between the
00:48:08
[audience member] Yeah, I mean the better professional police.
00:48:11
Better professional police, yeah, well one thing I am sympathetic with the
police department is that when you talk about a more professional type of
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 23
department you have to talk about, first of all, giving higher salaries, you
know, I don't know if the taxpayers of this city are ready to have a capacity
to deem this to be necessary, you know, but as far as the police
department goes, I would hope that the relationship would be better. I
hope that they would become more professional and more effective. Of
course then I'm not, I'm not the mayor of Minneapolis or the chief of police,
you understand, I probably could talk a little better on the subject if I had,
you know, more black people on the department we could sit down and
we could, you know discuss it but as I said before there's so few, you see.
Of course it's interesting [inaudible] that did-00:49:00
--I don't know how many are familiar, and I know it goes quite some way
back, but there are, there were as many black men on the Minneapolis
Police Department in 1924 as there are today. It's amazing. In fact
[inaudible] black man in the Minneapolis Fire Department back in the 30s
so I don't know which way we're going, you see.
00:49:24
Yeah, right, one thing I'd like to throw out to you with Watts still really on
my mind and I think this goes along with this thing of law, order, and
justice, you see, now we know that the three of them are equals, we would
all agree to that, right? But the three are equal, you see, well which is the,
and I would like some of you to respond to this. Of the three, which is the
last among equals?
00:49:44
Of law, order, and justice.
00:49:53
Yes.
00:49:54
[audience member answering] I think [inaudible] justice is the last becasue
when people loot as an act of survival that they either need the food to
survive, they might need the money for rent. That sort of thing. An act of
survival does not condone [inaudible] a very humanistic sense [inaudible].
00:50:21
So justice is the last my equals, as it now stands. Yeah, I agree with you, it
is. Yes.
00:50:28
[audience member answering] I kind of think that justice is different for
everyone. Law and order maybe very much the same thing, my point of
view your point of view. Something that maybe justice for you may not be
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 24
justice for me, allowing someone to get away with some unfair business
practices-00:50:54
Violation of antitrust laws, that type of thing, right, right.
00:50:57
[Inaudible]
00:51:13
Right, but then your conclusion would be that justice is the last among
equals.
00:51:20
[audience member answering] [Inaudible] Put justice then in a different
category as being something [inaudible] after law and order.
00:51:39
After law and order? Right, I guess you would.
00:51:45
[Inaudible]
00:51:53
Yeah yeah, justice under the law right. So then I think we would all agree
that justice is last among equals as I said again, is that right?
00:52:05
[Inaudible]
00:52:07
[question from the moderator] [inaudible[ we can't really have justice
without law. And what we're really having is a kind of white [Inaudible] in
position of a white man's perception of justice without law
00:52:16
But if justice was rendered equally you see they probably wouldn't have
really any need for law and order.
00:52:27
[moderator] Could I ask another question while...do you have a question?
But I’m interested in the attitude of the the image of the Black man has of
the police. We wonder why Black men do not get into the police force.
Now you can say that the tests of discrimination--
00:52:54
Oh well, first, first of all--
00:52:55
[modertator] But in--does the Black man really think of being a police
officer as being very honorable and desirable?
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 25
00:53:01
Well I don't think it's his childhood ambition, no.
00:53:05
[Laughter]
00:53:08
Well first of all I think that in the black community that you will find the
police department is looked upon as an occupation force. I think that's
right in line with what you said about the fascist type of government, you
understand. Law, order, and justice, you see, only thing we know. We've
always had the law and order side of the club.
00:53:28
[moderator] And we just think we'll just raise the salary and make it really
attractive, and then the colored man would love to be a police officer.
00:53:37
No, that's not true.
00:53:38
[moderator continues] [Inaudible] We have a lot to do [Inaudible] barriers
in communities.
00:53:50
Well I think maybe what the police department will have to do is like the
National Guard did last year after the riots and they received such bad
publicity, you see, they went on and got a PR man, you see. [audience
laughs]
00:54:03
Yes.
00:54:04
[Inaudible]
00:54:24
Yeah, well then you say the property, well see first of all see property is
not ours see never has been ours. Yes, slumlords. Right, absentee
landlord, that's right, and that's usually the man who takes all the money
out of the communities and never puts anything back in, never
refurbishes.
00:54:42
[Inaudible remarks between the moderator and the question asker]
00:54:57
Well, let me, let me respond, let me ask this question, talking about how a
situation can be handled you see, and I think we look at some of the
countries in the world like England, you know, there's never been any
there for patrolmen or policemen to carry guns, revolvers, and they seem
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 26
to be able to handle this situation pretty well. I mean, you know, when
people are in disorder we admit to there's a certain degree of force that
has to be used against them, but what I'm trying to get clear in my mind,
you see, when we talk about protection of property, now when the
students are to go down to Fort Lauderdale you know every April, you see,
for the past 10 or 12 or 13 or 14 years, you know, and just tear that town
up, you see.
00:55:39
I'm trying to recall in my mind how many incidences that we've had where
the police have opened fire on those students for destroying property. Of
course then, that's a totally white group nine times out of ten. Maybe that
makes a difference, maybe that ties right in with the white racist society. If
I'm wrong, correct me.
00:56:00
[Inaudible]
00:56:02,
Oh, you're not familiar with slumlords. Oh! Yeah you're really uninformed.
No, slumlord's usually an individual who was, you know, gives, you know,
$5,000 a year to his church he's probably Presbyterian, Unitarian, Catholic
you know this type of thing, and he's always the one that stands up
something says, “we just can't have them out here, you know, when they
move in your property depreciates. They don't maintain the proper type of
home. They let their houses rundown,” that's usually the slumlord, you
see. Usually the slumlord it's a civic leader. Belongs to the Junior
Chamber of Commerce, Chamber of Commerce, you know, we're
respected in the community, you see.
00:56:35
And the reason that we never really can identify them is because he
doesn't come. He usually sends a lackey to collect the rent, you see, or
usually has, you know, people in the ghetto mail the rent in. This is what
we say when we say about slumlords, you see. He usually, the individual
that, you know, has or owns five or six pieces of property, five or six
buildings in the community, you see, and you can't decide which is the
more appalling that usually the slumlord is.
00:57:03
[question from the audience] Well when they talk about new, low-rent
housing, everybody in my family is in construction and the first thing they
get the picture of is throwing up a shack, because there's not enough
money to put into it in the first place to make it something decent, and I
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 27
was wondering if, where you think money should come from, what source
of money we could find for a good low rent housing can be constructed?
00:57:30
Yeah well I think we have just a reservoir of money we spend everyday in
Vietnam for a senseless escapade, you see, because, let me clarify this
statement, you see, I'm not, see I'm not tied up in this thing that, this threat
of communism, you see, because I don't see communism everyday, you
see. I don't see any KGB walking up and down the street understand the
submachine guns at the ready, understand, but I do see right racism being
maintained in this country, so I 0 cannot be concerned with communism,
but I can't be concerned racism, consequent I'm concerned with taking
care and alleviating problems in this country, you see, so consequently, I
would be against such a fiasco as we are now conducting in Vietnam, you
see, and the resources for making the types of improvements that we
talked about for the social ills of people are available.
00:58:19
Yeah.
00:58:20
[response from an audience member] Well, I disagree with your stand that
the war in Vietnam is responsible for the lack of spending for civil
improvement in our country, because--
00:58:31
No well let me say this, it's merely--It is, first of all, you know, I am against
the war, first of all, make that point clear. The other point that I realized the
war is merely an excuse that is used by the congressional leaders of our
country as an excuse for not appropriating more funds to alleviate
problems and social ills in this country.
00:58:51
[the moderator makes an inaudible remark to change the subject]
00:58:57
We're all flexible here.
00:58:59
[Question from the audience] In an actual riot, what do you feel the actual
role of the policeman is?
00:59:06
[moderator repeating the question] The question he raises is, in an actual
riot, what should be the role of the police officer?
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 28
00:59:11
What should be the role, or what, yeah--well, you know, [he scoffs] I really
don't know what any role should be. I guess that his role should be that of
protecting life and then property, you know, but I think [Inaudible].
[Inaudible] the riots, well, first of all, looking into the role of the policemen,
you see, the role he's going to play, you know, in dealing with these riots,
see first of all we have to understand why the riot probably started and
how his role is going to be affected. So usually an internal report has
stated this, that nine, nine out of ten the riots that started were started
because of some action taken by the police department, you know an
incident of an arrest, or this type of thing, you see, how a riot should be
controlled, I mean, I don't, you know.
01:00:02
I don't know maybe we need to go to such countries as Japan and France,
now they tell me that France has one of the finest riot, or did have one of
the finest riot control [the audience laughs] units in the world at one time,
you see, but I mean really we don't, we don't know, I mean it's left up to
the individual, you see, how they control it. I guess we try to control a riot
to lose as little life as we possibly can and to have as little property
damage as we possibly can, you see.
01:00:24
I would presume this would be the position to be taken by the police
department on how to control a riot. I really don't know. If I did know, I
could probably be lending that knowledge in Washington somewhere.
How would you suggest? See, we, none of us know. Of course then--
01:00:39
[the moderator says something inaudible]
01:00:42
-after the riot started, yeah, right, right that's like locking the door after the
horse is gone, that type of thing. But yeah, that's a good question, it
stumps me. It stumps me because see what I've always saw in how riots
are dealt with in this country, you understand, is usually the the fist of the
club, and we've gotten tied up in this philosophy, and we don't seem to be
prepared to absorb anything differently
01:01:09
[Moderator] Well I suppose if we had the training--
01:01:14
Well of course what it is some day we might come up with a type of gas,
you understand, we just put one to sleep and will not have any after
harmful effects you know, maybe we may come up with that. I don't know.
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 29
We came up with mace, I don’t know why we couldn’t come up with that.
Yes.
01:01:27
[Inaudible remark from the audience]
01:02:51
[there is a cut in the tape] --continue to maintain law and order and to
gradually work towards justice. I'm wondering we have much time left in
this country
01:03:00
[Inaudible response fro the moderator]
01:03:05
I see, I guess you're right. I guess you're right. Of course I'm quite sure
that that man standing down in the corner on the ghetto who was prepared
to go to the street, you understand, understands that too. Just think
gradualism. I think he understands that, right.
01:03:22
[moderator] I think that’s the problem--it’s a matter, in a sense, of time.
01:03:24
Yes, yes, and I maintain that maybe we don't have too much time left.
01:03:29
[moderator] I've gotten cues from behind the room that we must adjourn
so that the people can get to the next session. Thank you very much.
01:03:38
Thank you.
01:03:39
[Applause]
“People or Property” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 30
Show less
Transcript of “People or Property: Law Enforcement in the Ghetto”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0033
Description: Please note: this recording contains use of the n-word that listeners may
find disturbing. Gary Hines, Larry Harrell... Show more
Transcript of “People or Property: Law Enforcement in the Ghetto”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0033
Description: Please note: this recording contains use of the n-word that listeners may
find disturbing. Gary Hines, Larry Harrell, Douglas Hall, and Corty Espangoga discuss
issues surrounding police presence in black neighborhoods in an afternoon panel
moderated by Dr. Unidentified speaker. Note: this discussion contains explicit language.
The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial
injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:05:52
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[The recording cuts in as Torstenson is speaking]
00:00:00
[Unidentified speaker] All of us may not be here. In order to make full use
of our time, I think we are all aware that one of the sensitive and most
critical issues in the field of human relations relates to the whole matter of
law enforcement and the delicate question of the role of the police in the
matter of their protection of people and property. This has been brought
sharply into focus in relationship to riots, but probably more sharply still in
relationship to some observations that were made by a mayor of a city
about five hundred miles from here with respect to what police ought to be
doing in the case of the critical tests in this matter.1
1
Possibly a reference to Chicago mayor Richard J. Daley and the 1968 Chicago Riots, which took place
on April 5-6. Daley encouraged Chicago police to shoot or maim looters and arsonists.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 1
00:01:05
I'm not going to be doing any speaking to this subject. I'm simply, I think,
to introduce some of the members of the panel, who will open up the
discussion and give us a chance to think together with them about this
important matter. There have been some changes in the personnel of our
panel. Mr. Douglas Hall, the attorney who many of you have known about,
known personally, and some of you have read about a great deal before,
but perhaps saw the interesting story of this man in last Sunday's paper.2
We'll open the discussion, present some of the issues, and the other two
members of the panel: Larry Harrell from the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Department and Cortez Espinosa from South High may be brought into
the discussion.
00:02:10
George--Gary Hines from the Determined Ebony Council of Youth at
Central High School
00:02:19
[Gary Hines] No, not at Central High School.
00:02:21
[Unidentified speaker] At Central High School.
00:02:21
[Gary Hines] No.
00:02:22
[Unidentified speaker] No, not at Central High School. I get the information
you have from somebody else. And I think we'll introduce Doug Hall first
and then he will introduce the other members of the panel, is that alright?
Mr. Hall, how long do you want me to [sound of shuffling papers and
microphone adjustments]
00:02:49
[Douglas Hall] I want to get something off my chest to start out with. It has
nothing to do with law enforcement. I didn't bring it along with me, but the
letter I got inviting me to this session, and my feelings about the tone that
some speakers take when they come to college groups. It's kind of all
wrong. As I recall the letter, it said that the students at Augsburg never
lived in the ghetto, and they didn't know what it was all about, and it was
our responsibility to come up and get you involved.
00:03:33
The speakers feel that they have to arouse your feelings of guilt and so
forth to appeal to you and this whole situation. I think that's wrong. I see a
See Bob Lundegaard, “Doug Hall: Attorney for the Underdog,” Minneapolis Tribune, May 12, 1968. Front
page.
2
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 2
lot of your generation. I've got five kids of my own that kind of span your
generation on both ends. And I think you're beautiful people, and I don't
think you should feel guilty about this whole situation. I think you should
become involved, you should become involved from a sense of
responsibility, but I don't think you should feel guilty.
00:04:20
And I think there are certain hang-ups in these guilt feelings that people try
to put on your generation and they cause you to become hung up on
things, and you can carry out your responsibility which you obviously have
much better, if you look at it in terms of responsibility and not that you're
guilty for all of the sins of the prior generation. Because all you have to do
really is to look at the history of this country from about the past three or
four or five years and college students have accomplished tremendous
changes in policy, and in feeling, and awareness, and as a group, you've
done more than the older folks have to redirect a lot of the thinking in this
country. So I think you should be proud of yourselves.
00:05:19
You shouldn't feel guilty. Come on in and get involved and all that stuff,
but do it from the right basis. Law enforcement in the ghettos. [Long
pause] You start now with a problem in the ghetto. It was the most
universal, up to two or three years ago and it still goes on, that the ghetto
is the place to channel all of the things that you don't want in the other part
of the city. And the general attitude of law enforcement was ‘we don't care
much what goes on in the ghetto as long as they do it to each other. If
they get out of the ghetto, and do it to the rest of the community, then we'll
have to take some action.’ You can imagine what that kind of an official
policy has done to the ghetto.
00:06:32
It's embittered people. It has made them frustrated, depressed, with a very
strong feeling that they have no worth and that they are the dregs of
society in their areas and the city is the dumping ground. And this has led
to all sorts of ramifications, I don't think there's any question. I'm sure you
studied it in your sociology courses that the poor, and the Black, and the
red are more vulnerable to police action. The police feel that with impunity
they can push people around in the ghetto and nothing will ever happen
about it. And there is a completely negative feeling in the ghetto about
justice and law and order. These are not relevant things to people who live
in the ghetto.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 3
00:07:51
And I can illustrate it best by the attitude along Franklin Avenue in the
Indian community, that almost universally if an Indian is arrested for
anything, nine times out of ten he will go down to court, he will plead guilty
just to get it over with. There's no sense in trying to do anything about it.
And of all the injustices, I suppose I feel this one the most keenly, that
Indian people and black people have such a completely defeatist idea
about justice because this is what my profession is supposed to be about.
About a year ago, three Indians were arrested on Franklin Avenue and
charged with four offenses, and it was a sort of the routine bag that the
police department had engaged in, but they just happened to pick out the
wrong three, because these men decided that it was about time to put an
end to going down and pleading guilty and getting it over with.
00:09:14
They wanted their day in court, and they wanted their day in court without
any real expectation that they would win, but they decided to call a halt for
their own integrity to this idea of just going down and falling in the bay.
And so we tried three cases. It took us two days. I sometimes have the
reputation of trying a misdemeanor case like a first-degree murder case,
but this is important. Instead of just standing up in front of the judge and
having the thing over in about three minutes, they sit at the counsel table,
the witnesses are sworn, they get to participate in the dignity of what the
law is supposed to be about. And you can see the response of a human
being to the sort of pride of participating in a process and doing it on their
own terms.
00:10:33
And that experience sort of started a new awareness in the community as
to what justice can be and it really was unimportant that in those four
charges they happened to win three. It was a fine thing to have happened,
but the important thing was that they decided that they were going to at
least participate as human beings. And it's from beginnings like that, that
this curse of the ghetto is going to be broken. And it's in areas like that,
that you as individuals can participate. There are all sorts of ways and
organizations and movements in which you can become involved, not with
the idea of working out your guilt, but with the idea of acquiring a whole
new world of experience and it's a constant learning process.
00:11:41
I've been talking recently about racism and the administration of justice
and one of the areas in which it's most manifest is in just the semantics of
the situation, and the words we use. At the Hennepin County Bar
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 4
luncheon in which we talked about this thing, sitting at the speaker's table,
and gauging in the chit-chat before the program began, the term “colored
boy” was used again and again. Here we were sitting down to discuss
racism and these men are so insensitive to a very elemental proposition:
that a man is a man and you address him like that, but it's a constant
learning process and I made one of the worst goofs I ever made in my life.
00:12:36
About ten days ago, I was engaged in a discussion before a group on the
north side and I was complaining about the particular organization that it
hadn't carried out its program, and one of the things I was most concerned
about that in the period immediately after the assassination,3 it hadn't done
anything to reduce the tensions or as organizations like The Way, TCOIC,
Sabathani Center had organized the patrol and developed it. And I was
talking about the fact that this gave us a bad image in the eyes of Black
people, that we were staying out of things, and then I proceeded to say
‘this is the blackest mark our organization has got.’ Ossie Davis, a very
fine actor, made an analysis of dictionary words, and he categorized the
words having the connotation of ‘black’ or ‘blackness’ as to the positive
and negative and the words black or blackness that have a negative
connotation are about three-to-one over the positive so we have built in
our own vocabulary a racist element.
00:14:04
And I used it just like that, and it's this learning process that's the most
exciting thing about the work in the movement and, if I were you, I'd look
at it in that sense a way to broaden horizons, to acquire richness in your
lives, and when--with the resources that you bring in, particularly within
that context, then we'll get on with the problems, and that's what we need
because the racist element is so deeply embedded. In the administration
of justice, in addition to the police problem, when a minority person goes
into court, in Minneapolis anyway, they go into almost a white, completely
white world.
00:15:07
In Hennepin County, the only Black faces they see are the bailiffs in the
courtroom or deputy sheriffs who represent power and there's a Black
man who is on the county attorney staff. It just happens that he does a
good job and he is a good prosecutor. As a matter of fact, the Hennepin
County Attorney's Office is one of the best prosecuting offices that I know
of. But here again all the Black faces connected with administration of
3
The assasintation of Martin Luther King, Jr.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 5
justice in Hennepin County are on the prosecution side. When you're
found guilty, and you’re referred to probation there are some there, but
while you're in the process of vindicating your innocence of a charge,
you're in the white world except for the Black people on the side of
enforcement, and when you pick a jury you're in about a 99% white world.
00:16:21
I defended a man some time ago charged with two traffic offenses, and
he lives about the six hundred block off of Olson Highway in North
Minneapolis, lived there all his life. And when we got through picking the
jury there wasn't anybody closer to the core city than about 48th Street.
Two-thirds of the jurors lived in the suburbs. All-white, obvious. He took
one look at that jury and said, ‘I thought I was entitled to a trial--jury of my
peers. These people aren't my peers.’ This is one of the most difficult
things we're having to deal with now because the justification for the
selection of juries, this is practically universal, is that it's by lot. You go
down the city directory and you take the fourth name on page twenty, then
you turn to page twenty-eight and you take the fourth name on page
twenty-eight.
00:17:30
You go through the directory that way, and you get a couple of hundred
names. They make up your jury panel and it's perfectly fair because
nobody is picked for one reason or another, it's just chance, so you get a
fair jury. Well, this is nonsense. This is one of the greatest unrealities of
the law, but it's almost impossible to see the men who've grown up with
that system, recognize that justice and the jury system means that there
will be peers on the jury and peers means those equal in experience, life
experience. You have some idea of the problem. This is not to say you are
gonna have twelve people from the ghetto on every jury that tries a person
from the ghetto, but the system should be as much seasoned with that
aspect of our community as it is the housewife, businessman, professional
man, so forth.
00:18:37
And it's going to be the understanding and the work which your minds will
bring to these problems that are eventually going to result in the changes
because if you can get inside these problems now and not start with all the
building and hang up that my generation has, for example, then we're
going to get into the understanding of why these things are important.
Then we'll get some changes.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 6
00:19:08
[Douglas Hall] Now, I was to introduce the rest? Or were you going to?
00:19:16
[Unidentified speaker] Your fifteen minutes are not up yet, if you have any
more--
00:19:18
[Douglas Hall] Well, I’ll yield and then we’ll get into a discussion.
00:19:20
[Unidentified speaker] I wonder which of you gentlemen would like to
respond to what Mr. Hall has said first. Mr. Larry Harrell.
00:19:36
[Larry Harrell] Well Mr. Hall is my lawyer and I’d just disagree with him for
one thing is that
00:19:38
[Douglas Hall] Please speak in the yeah.
00:19:42
[Larry Harrell] For one thing, I like Doug and I gotta be cool here. Doug, I
think that it is their problem just as much so. I think they have to be aware
of their problem when you start off you said that you don't think they ever
be hollered at and criticized, you know, But see, we've been hollered at
and criticized by the police and now we've been abused and misused and
every time we go to court like you said you know that there's no justice for
us in this courtroom, yet we can go to court for killing someone and we'll
go to jail for twenty years, and all of a sudden a white man comes in and
he gets the same treatment, you know, he goes through the court and he's
insane. He's found insane and sent off to St. Peter's for five years and
that’s it. And, you know, black people get mad and disgusted about this,
here, you know, they begin to holler and can you much blame them for
hollering and being disgusted by the way that they've been treated in
America. And that’s my point, you can go ahead...
00:20:54
[Unidentified speaker] Gary Hines, if you would like to comment on this or
make some other observation.
00:21:04
[Gary Hines] Talked a lot about ghettos. First of all, you have to realize the
way people use the word now ‘ghetto’ there aren't enough Black people in
the state of Minnesota ready to make up a ghetto, so you can't really talk
on ghetto terms, but staying on the subject we're on now, law
enforcement, you see, the problem comes in one simple sentence,
phrase, paraphrase, however you want to put it. The present system by
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 7
which you know we all are supposed to abide puts law and order before
justice. Now if you put justice before law and order, law and order will
naturally fall in line, however, when you put law and order before justice
there's gonna be a little bit of a problem, you see, because as most of you
realize by now if you haven't, shame on you, this is a revolution of people
of color not only in Minneapolis, not only in this country, but all over the
world.
00:22:10
You see it in Asia, you see it in Africa, South Africa to be specific, you see
it right here in our own so-called country, so this is a revolution. One
characteristic of a revolution is that it starts within and projects outward,
another characteristic of a revolution, if you know anything about it, is that
revolution comes from the word ‘evolution’ which means change,
revolving, you're changing something, you're turning something around,
you see, which is what is happening now, what needs to happen. This
country now, especially in its laws, needs to wake up, you know, and be
turned around and shook up a little bit and you know they need to dig, we
need to dig into the set of values and things we have established now, you
see, because the way that things are set up now, they're set up for the
white man, for white America. You see, that's why they're so, as far as I'm
concerned, there's no such animal as a liberal, you know, no such thing
because the liberal assumes that everything that's good for America is
automatically good for Black people.
00:23:19
Not so. We have our own culture, we have our own ways, but we're here
in America which is one of the reasons why we're Afro-Americans as
opposed to Negro. We'll get into that later on, but in direct conjunction with
law and enforcement, the laws are made for you and they're not made for
me, which is why every time you try to put them on me conflict arises, you
see. You're gonna put me in a place, for instance the so-called, bag about
marriage and Black fathers and parents straying. Let's look at it a little bit,
now you talk about, well, black men are never satisfied. They have to have
two and three women, well that's right, you know why? Well that's your
fault too, you see, because we were first brought over here one of the
prime--well main, to be more correct--functions of certain Black men was
to serve as studs or bucks, you've heard that word before if you've read
any of Kyle Onstott’s works: Falconhurst Fancy, Mandingo, Drum, Son of
Drum, you know what I'm talking about.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 8
00:24:17
See this myth about cotton-picking, you know, that was more or less in the
minority. The primary job of the black man, especially the well-built black
man, you know, a good buck a good stuf, was to serve as a buck, you
know, on a breeding farm and all his pastime was to reproduce, you know,
make the babies. This buck will produce a good stud, you know, he's
worth $200, he can do so much for them, so what you've done is you've
bred two or three hundred years of promiscuity into us, you know, having
five and six women and then getting us together, you know, these different
studs and bucks, you know, and we'd be talking about, ‘man, in my stable
I got fifteen females how many you got?’ ‘Oh man I only got six, you've got
it good.’ And then you're gonna tell us to adhere to your laws, have one
wife.
00:25:10
You're gonna take us from Africa, and if you know anything about African
history, you'll know that it was not uncommon in many tribes, in many
areas, for a man to have more than one wife, you see, you're going to give
us a religion that really isn't suitable to us or for us, you know, you're
gonna come down into the desert areas in Africa, into the jungle,
especially the jungle, and talk about Christianity, and talk about that your
pagan if you don't wear clothes. Hell if you live in a 130 degrees in the
tropical forest what you need clothes for? [laughter] I mean, you know, so
you're putting everything on us that's not befitting of us, including these
laws, you see. These laws would be fitting of us if you recognize us as
human beings and treated us as such, but you haven't done that.
00:25:57
Until now a lot of people haven't done it and a lot of people still don't want
to do it, a lot of people think they're doing it, they're not doing it. But, once
again, in direct conjunction with the subject at hand these laws were
supposedly made for Americans, but you don't recognize somebody as an
American around here unless he's human. He's not human unless he's
American, if that makes any sense, and these laws were made by white
people for white people, you see, overlooking the needs of black people.
Consciously or unconsciously is irrelevant. The fact is that it was done,
and the fact is today it needs change. We find that out now.
00:26:40
You talk about militancy. People wouldn't be militant if they didn't have to
be. You talk about pimps, prostitutes, whores, or you know different
degrees, they wouldn't be so if they didn't have to, you know, Black people
have never lived in this country we've only survived, you see. You made it
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 9
that way for us, you see. Until the 19th century, the Constitution said that
we were only three-fifths of a human being. For 125 years, we made
seventy-five cents out of every dollar. You take the country away from the
red man, and later tell him that he has to pass a law for him to be a citizen,
and then you're gonna pass a human rights bill to tell us that we're human,
we don't have tails, like we didn't know that, and then you're gonna put
laws on us that aren't even of our culture, or of our heritage and then
you're gonna send a white policeman into our ghetto.
00:27:29
Now we've developed a subculture, and you're gonna send a white
policeman in there, and tell us what's right and wrong, you see. When your
morals are different from ours, your culture is different from ours, your
heritage is different from ours, your beliefs are different from ours in many
aspects, and I realize that I'm making a lot of generalizations. However,
generalizations are necessary. So, in compliance what we're saying, many
of the laws now that are standing, you know, as they are, must come
under some severe changes and very quickly, you see, because if these
laws were as they are stated, if they are enforced as they’re stated, you
know, if they were carried out as they are stated for everyone that it is
stated about you wouldn't have the so-called rebellions and things of this
nature.
00:28:20
Social-economic revolutions, they're not riots. This is a revolution. The
so-called riots are the rebellion part of the revolution, you see, and then
you're gonna talk about militants. Hell, we’re not militant. Who's militant
that goes around burning down buildings? We're just frustrated. You talk
about how we're lazy. We're not lazy. We're just tired. You've been
working for four hundred years and you'd be tired too. Now take a look at
the Ku Klux Klan running around raping and castrating and bombing little
girls. That's militant, you see. They're directing their anguishes and their
hatred and their racism at people. They're not going around burning
around buildings like we are, but, you see, if some of these laws aren't,
you know, put into effect and soon, Black people are gonna start
changing their targets, from buildings to guess who?
00:29:07
[Applause]
00:29:17
[Unidentified speaker] Cortez Espinosa, would you like to make some
comments from South High School?
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 10
00:29:25
[Cortez Espinosa] Excuse me I'm not from South High School, so we get
that straight off I’m from the Youth Opportunity Program from Civil Rights
Office. And another thing, well I just want to say something about
Minneapolis I'm just talking [inaudible] I think they have a great police
force, great. They enforce all the laws and are so good that they get a
raise, you know, this is why your police force is so good. You hear about
Minneapolis Police Force doing this. Everybody on TV they show them
giving these medals out. They haven't been doing anything but force and
putting it enforcement on my people and me and as Doug was saying
about the courtroom, I mean, you know, Doug's been my lawyer, you
know, he knows, you know. I was fortunate enough that, see, I just gonna
give you an example.
00:30:17
I was walking down the street, me and my friend, and some white boys
come by in a car and call us chocolate drops, pull up to the side tell us
‘come on,’ they're gonna do this and that, so there's three of them and two
of us and, to me, the size was even, you know. [audience laughs] I mean
even if it wasn't to me, it was it was sure was to the police, when they got
me, you know, the reason they got me is because my friend, he protected
himself with a weapon, a razor, you know, and see they started, they
come out on the worst end of it, and we get punished for it, you know, and
so we were fortunate enough to get away from--all I was told is that we
were wrong, you know, the way it made me feel like that we were just
supposed to walk over there, get beat up and call the police, knowing not
who these people are, where they come from, but it just got reverse
directions.
00:31:17
It seemed like some kind of way of--somebody got cut, and somebody got
hit with a rock, and I didn't come out with a scratch, and the police
threatened to shoot my friend, cause when they got him in the car I was
fortunate enough to get away again.
00:31:35
[Laughter]
00:31:37
This is the thing, you know, he gets in the car, they put him in the car, he
said, takes out his gun said ‘well now, I should kill you right here and
now,’4 you know, what kind of law enforcement is that? you know, do you
4
Espinosa is presumably saying his friend heard this from the police.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 11
think, now I think if this was a white person just a Black cop, would have
turned around and told him this he would have filed all kinds of complaints
and, sued everybody but, you know, just like the Indian, just like Doug
said, they've been taking it so they're just gonna plead guilty. My friend
didn't say nothing. He just put his head down and went on down, and
spent four days in jail and some kind of way by miracle or something,
somebody did something we got out. And this is the thing, man. If this is
so great of a police force and law enforcement and all you judges and
attorneys and, you know, well do we have a chance?
00:32:32
This is all I gotta say. Can I go in the courtroom with a fair chance? Can I
go in there thinking well at least I'm thinking I might have that chance, but
is it true? Do I have that chance that you might have when you go in the
courtroom, you see. People just like he said, you got these people in here
on the jury. Somebody doesn't even, knows no nothing, you know. They
just come on in and, well, just like if I think I would've went to court I
wouldn't be standing here right now. They would've told him that I was
wrong, there was three of them two of us we outnumbered them. Well
that's what they might as well told me that, you know, since they said they
didn't start it. This--I just don't understand, how can they come there and
tell me I was wrong, you know, I'm gonna get jumped on, protect myself,
and I'm wrong? Answer that.
00:33:41
[Unidentified speaker] Well I think the remaining time we would like to
open the floor for the discussion and questions. You can address them to
one of the members.
00:33:47
[Audience member] Gary, I'd like to know if you could tell us a little bit
more about DECOY?
00:33:52
[Gary Hines] Well I wouldn't mind doing that, but I mean I'm sure there's
other people that want to stick right to the immediate subject. I could tell
you that personally, I mean, it's nothing that--I'm not saying that I don't
want to publicize, I do, but I mean, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of
people that want to stick right to the subject -- is that alright?
00:34:10
Perhaps [inaudible] after the session, after the meeting.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 12
00:34:14
[Audience member] [Inaudible] I realize that there is prejudice in any
police force, but I'd like also to point out that it isn't a bed of roses for
every white [inaudible]. I realize that [inaudible] have prejudice against
[inaudible], but every one person who goes in there isn't going to have it
all great. [Inaudible]
00:33:32
[Cross talk from the panelists]
00:34:39
[Cortez Espinosa] It's not for every white [inaudible] for the poor white
person he's not in exact treatment I am. I'm getting worse I know, if I don't
get worse than he does, then something [inaudible] But I know that that
white man don't get treated as bad as I do. Just cold facts.
00:35:00
[Gary Hines] You have to look at it from the simple sense. The white man,
or boy, whoever it may be in a given situation, may be mistreated, you
know by the law by police officers, but all you have to do is ask yourself
why. They're getting treated for various other reasons other than they're
color, you see, it's the same thing with the poor white, the poor white is not
poor because he's white, but in most cases in almost all cases, the poor
Black is poor because he's Black. And the same goes for mistreatment
within law enforcement agencies, he's getting mistreated because he's
Black, you see.
00:35:40
[Inaudible question from the audience] and like Lillian Anthony was talking
about this morning. She said the Black people, she said are mixed up as
to what to consider themselves, an Afro-American, and some consider
themselves colored people, some Negro, some Black people, just --
00:36:02
[Gary Hines] Well, can I clear that up for you? First of all, and you might as
well sit back cause it's gonna take a little while. First terms first, now
00:36:12
[Unidentified speaker] You want to stand up so want to stand up so they
can hear you? I think some people--
00:36:16
[Gary Hines] All right.
00:36:17
[Sound of microphone feedback]
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:36:19
First of all, Afro-American and Black are not synonymous, but they do not
conflict with each other. I'll clear them up later. First one I want to clear up
is ‘Negro,’ why black people are against the word ‘Negro’. Now, all you
have to do in nine out of ten times in any case like this against anything is
just look into the history of it. Now, the word Negro is a Spanish word for
‘black.’ Now many of those people that dealt with the slave trade were
people of Spanish descent or Spanish people, Portuguese and Dutch
mainly, and when we were brought to this country, it wasn't realized, you
know, that we came from different racial stocks, different tribal stocks, you
know.
00:37:08
We came from, oh just to name a few; the [inaudible], the [inaudible], the
Ashantis, the [inaudible], the [inaudible], the Krus, and several others. It
was just realized we had one thing in common, that we were Black, and so
they referred to us as ‘Negro,’ you see, this was their word for Black. Now,
all right, what's wrong with it? First of all, I'll tell you what the word Negro
does, it takes away any identification with any culture or any heritage. You
can look on on a map of the continent of Africa and nowhere will you see
the word Negro. You can look on the map of the world, and no way will
you see the word Negro. There is no Negroland and, you see, you
constantly hear about the Fighting Irish, you know, and the Spanish have
Spain, and the Germans have Germany, the English at England.
00:37:54
Who the Negroes have? Negroland? Well where's that at? You see that
right there. The second thing it does is that there's been a stereotype with
the word Negro. Quote Malcolm X's autobiography. Malcolm X was third in
his class, and being students you'll note that that's a fairly high
percentage. He was third in his class, and he was talking to one of his
teachers one day, and his teacher asked him, ‘Malcolm what do you
intend for your profession to be when you grow up?’ And Malcolm replied,
‘well I want to be a lawyer.’ And so his teacher said, ‘well, a lawyer? Well
don't be a lawyer, why don't you become a carpenter, something more
fitting of a Negro, you see.’ So that's the second thing the word Negro
does. It not only takes away culture and heritage, but there's a stereotype
with it.
00:38:40
The third thing is that to too many people the word Negro means n*****
anyway, you see. Now, the insult with the word n***** and Negro comes
from this: for two or three hundred years Black people were n*****s in this
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 14
connotation. The present-day definition of the word n***** is a base low
human being, a very vulgar human being and for two or three hundred
years while slavery was, you know, reached its height and decline Black
people were n*****s, you know, fed once a day if the master didn't forget it,
you know, cut up his hog, and have his ham, and toss us the guts and say
‘here, n*****, eat it.’ And we were smart enough to turn around and make a
delicacy out of it: chitlins, you see, things of this nature. So what does it
do? It takes away any identification with the culture, there's a stereotype
with it, a negative stereotype, and there's an insult to the word, among
other things, so that is why the word Negro, many people, Black people,
nowadays considered it as defunct.
00:39:39
Now colored means ‘of color.’ And when you're talking about human
beings, Homo sapiens you're talking about Hawaiians, you're talking about
Orientals, Chinese, Japanese, Tahitians, Mexicans, Spanish, and Black
people, Africans, and Afro-Americans, you see. That is the thing with
color, you see, so when you're talking about colored people you're not
talking about us, color can also mean ‘of different colors,’ and if you're
gonna talk about that color, you're talking about yourself because some,
you know, places on your skin are pale grey and some are pink, someone
will be red even, so you know, if you're gonna talk about color, make sure
which connotation you have, either you're talking about us or you're talking
about yourself.
00:40:25
Now as for the word Black, when you talk about people, people relate to
the extremes. Nobody in here is white, and yet you're referred to as white
people. If I hold up any white piece of paper around here which we would
all agree to as being white, and held it up to your skin, you'd see that you
are far from it, but people relate to the extreme. The red man, no Indian is
pure re, but they relate to the extreme. Yellow man, same as Orientals,
Chinese. You don't see a pure yellow, some close to it, yes, but you don't
see that. People relate to the extreme. Now, then comes the question,
why haven't Black people wanted to be called Black. Well obviously, it's
been instilled in their minds that Black is bad, you know, angel food cake
is white and devil's food cake is black, things of this nature, you know.
When you're married you wear white, and when you die you wear black.
00:41:11
As Spike said, it's been put in your mind that black is bad, you see, but
now we're starting to relate to our extreme too, we're saying that Black is
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 15
beautiful. We're redefining our entire sets of values so that is the word on
black. Now Afro-American, Afro-American is the really correct term
because you can't say African, because we've been here too long for that.
We built this country, and we put too much into it to just say African.
Another reason is because one out of every five black men has had some
white ancestors, you see, and the same goes with white people, so we're
not pure Africans if there is any such thing as ‘pure.’ And so what the word
Afro-American does it restores that identification with a culture or heritage
that Negro has taken away it is the exact opposite of Negro, you see.
00:41:56
Now, whenever somebody has called a Negro it's meant in a derogatory
way, you see, so that is what the word Afro-American does. It restores
some of that which has been taken away and it is the only really correct
term when you're talking about nationalities, you know, like I said the
Spanish have Spain, the Afro-Americans have what? Well, they put too
much in this country to just back out and say we just have Africa, you see,
Africa is the heritage and culture we relate to, however, we still are, we're
not technically, but people like to think of us we like to think of ourselves to
some extent as Americans, so you have Afro-Americans.
00:42:32
Then comes to the final part, what about this myth about -oids, you know
this -oid; Africanoid, Australoid, Caucasoid, Mongoloid, you see you've
even tried to slip racism in there. You're gonna call up now, first of all, let's
get something straight, the word ‘race’ is only three hundred fifty years old,
approximately, and it came as a substitute or was synonymous to the
word family, you know, like your look in the Bible, you see, the family of
Shem, the family of Moses, the family of this one, the family of that one,
you see. ‘Race’ meant family. Now when you're talking about Caucasoids
and Mongoloids and things of this nature, you were not referring to skin
color. Caucasoid, or Caucasian, comes from the Caucasus Mountains,
you see, in Europe as a result there's Black Caucasians, you see, but
people have used the political term, you see.
00:43:28
Mongoloid, that comes from the area in Asia referred to as Mongolia.
There were a few scattered tribes of Black people there, so as a result
there's Black Mongolians there's white Mongolians, you see, but people
have used color as a border, you see, but even such, you still try to take
something away from us. You call the group and Mongolians, Mongoloids,
they had some place to relate to, you call the Caucasians Caucusoids,
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 16
they had someplace to relate to, and then you're gonna call the people
from Africa Negroids? Talking about Africoids or Africanoids, or Afroids,
something like that, something where you have something tangible to
relate to, but not something way off base so, does that take care of that
African/Negro’colored bit?
00:44:14
[Unidentified speaker] Thank you. I think we should try to get the
questions directed primarily now to the question of the law enforcement,
yes.
00:44:20
[Audience Member] I think in your first talk you pointed up two things: first
of all that there was injustice--
00:44:26
[Unidentified speaker] Could you speak louder?
00:44:29
[Audience member] --injust treatment once, you know, [inaudible] Negro,
or an Afro-American was caught, but you also said that there was injustice
in the laws that you had to abide by and I'm curious, I guess I just don't
know what exact laws don’t apply, you know don't know which laws you
consider not applicable [inaudible].
00:44:50
Well it's like this, maybe you've got, took it wrong when I said, you have to
realize, now let's look at the Constitution. The basis for all of our laws,
right, you're with me there? Constitution, all right now, the Constitution
was made for human beings, American human beings, right? However,
consider at that time Black people were not considered as human beings
because that same Constitution told us that we were only three-fifths of a
person, you see, so therefore none of the law is applied to us really except
the so-called Jim Crow legislation and the slave codes, but now as to
modern-day things, things tangible, something you can relate to right
today.
00:45:40
Like I said, one of those is this so-called myth about changing your whole
philosophy after six thousand years of glory in Africa, living under our own
cultural ways you're going to tell us about this one white bit and adhere to
this, and adhere to that. In other words you, what you're doing is you're
penalizing us and then you're oppressing us, and then you're asking us
why don't we speak, and then when we do speak you're asking why we're
speaking, you see, so it's a merry-go-round like that, you see.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 17
00:46:14
Now when I'm talking about [inaudible] to your question is you're talking
about what laws don't relate. I'm not going to go into specific laws, I saw
the man give the time signal, but what it is is, first of all, Black people have
to be recognized as human beings, you see, what one law is good for, like
I said the so-called liberal, there is no such animal because many of them
assume that what's good for America, white Americans, are automatically
good for Black America, not so, you see. So until we're recognized as
human beings then maybe the laws to start applying.
00:46:48
[Unidentified speaker] I am in a very uncomfortable position of having to
follow orders, I don't know if you follow orders or not in this case like this,
but I was told that there is a movie shown at four o'clock in another part of
the building, and then the Dudley Riggs show at 4:30 and I'm wondering if
instead of just following the orders, we might cut the thing to those who
wish to go to the movies can go to the movies and those who wish to stay
on a little longer here so the gentleman that I've come to talk to us about
law enforcement can stay. Does that seem like a reasonable solution?
00:47:32
[Inaudible speaking from the audience]
00:47:47
[Unidentified speaker] Yes thank you. “The Detached Americans” is the
name of the film and I assume that some of you may have seen it before.
So, I guess we'll just go one with the questions and those who wish to
leave. Mr. Agre had his hand up a long time ago and I'd like to recognize
his question.
00:48:07
[Audience member, possibly Courtland Agre] I would like to direct my
comment-question primarily to Mr. Hines. It seems, as I interpret the
statements he has made, that there are laws, some of which you might
agree with and others which you will not agree with. Let us admit right off
the bat that the laws of America are not [inaudible] or they might be
enforced [inaudible] at the whims of officials, but it is scarcely tolerable to
accept this statement to the effect that the laws of America are not to be
applied to the Afro-American. You are Americans, you're going to live by
American laws. The unfortunate thing, then, is I think, is the enforcement
of the laws [inaudible] harsher treatment by the juries, that white people
are harshly treated too. I think you have to accept that you're an American
you're going to live by American laws.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:49:12
[Gary Hines] True, however, if you can enforce one law and enforce all of
them, you see, now we're in a pretty unique situation. I see what you're
getting at, you know, live in America go by American laws. Now, you're
just the people that aren't doing it, you see, people here you got people
talking about why you shouldn't have open housing when all of the land is
supposed to be accessible by all of the people. These are the people that
shouldn't be here because they don't want to adhere to the so-called
American ways. Now, in application to the Black man, you enforce one law
against the Black man, and when it comes to a white man, not so, this is
what I'm referring to.
00:49:56
[Audience member, possibly Courtland Agre] I grant that and I feel equally
harshly against many of our judges, some of whom I've had contact,
indirectly I must admit, but still, rather directly I think there's much of
[inaudible] in jail [inaudible], but still it is their law, or their task to enforce
the law, and I suppose it must be certain equitable treatment, too, no
matter what the race.
00:50:23
[Gary Hines] Yes, but then like I said, the rule of justice before law and
order, they're not doing it, they're putting law and order before justice.
Justice is supposed to be what's right, what's correct in any, you know,
applicable sense, they're putting law and order before justice.
00:50:46
[Unidentified speaker] Would Mr. Hall like to comment on the question
between justice and law and order. I think that's such a critically important
issue that you'd like to raise as a legal specialist.
00:50:59
[Douglas Hall] Well, I'd really like to comment first on another aspect of it.
Maybe you saw in the Star ten days, two weeks ago, a Harris Poll on
alienation, which gave a breakdown in four, or five, six categories
1966-1968: how the Black community felt as to their acceptance or
rejection in various aspects of society. And in those two years, the feelings
of rejection had, the people who had the feelings of rejection alienation,
increased about a hundred percent in almost all of the categories between
75 and a hundred percent. What you've heard this afternoon from the
Black men on the program, is their feelings of alienation and rejection, but
they don't have a part in the system and here you have the roots of the riot
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 19
and the disturbance and the whole burden of the riot and the disturbance
is then by society put back on the Black community.
00:52:21
This is your wrong, you're responsible for it, and you've got to find the
solution for it, and so we're just running around in a circle. The real cause
of the riot and disturbance and the destruction, which is this alienation and
rejection isn't cooked with at all and it's perfectly well to say that in
America, you have to abide by the American laws but the injustice is so
cumulative, now, and the frustration is so great that that is no longer
relevant to the black community and unless we come to grips with that and
tackle first the job of making the law relevant to the Black community and
making justice relevant to the Black community, then we're going to get at
the cause of the riot and the disturbance and the rest of it.
00:53:18
And Mr. Hines is perfectly correct, the emphasis on law and order misses
the point. You attack it from the point of view of justice, and then law and
order becomes relevant. And until us white folks can get over this bag,
and the institutions can be adjusted and reevaluated, then we're going to
be confronting the symptoms of irrelevancy and this is a discouraging
thing in the spring of sixty-eight, the issuance of the riot commission
report. The assassination of Dr. King. These apparently are passing
phenomena as far as the white community is concerned. They're too
swiftly forgotten and they're talked to death and they're studied to death
and all this stuff and we never get down with it and until we get that word
justice up on top to permeate down all of this, we're in trouble.
00:54:32
[Unidentified speaker] Yes.
00:54:33
[Audience member] I'd like to ask a question of Mr. Hall. It seems that
within this belief system that we have that a rather inherent racism for the
policeman job is a person who is has to meet physical standards, he's
probably played violent football in high school, he's been in the Army for
eighteen years, and it's this type of person [inaudible] --
00:55:04
[Douglas Hall] You're absolutely right. There's some beginning to cope
with this, the trying to get at the psychopathic personality by administering
the psychological test so that they could weed out at that area. You have
an increasing reliance on at least some college training, if not a degree.
Those are all ways to get at that, but it's going to take a long time, and the
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 20
thing that you put your finger on is going to be the dominant characteristic
of the police force.
00:55:51
[Audience member] I have a question for you Mr. Hall. [Inaudible] that you
might face some repercussions from the Bar Association or [inaudible]
lawyers [inaudible] for the stand you're taking, the work you're doing with
these charges of racism in the court system [inaudible]. I want to know if
you can comment, perhaps on the Bar Association, and on any progress
they might be making [inaudible] not liberalizing, but coming around to the
real problems that do exist within the structure.
00:56:45
[Douglas Hall] Well I appreciate the question. I don't feel it puts me on the
spot at all. The Bar obviously is one of the most conservative segments of
society, always has been and probably always will be. However, within the
bar there are contrary currents. Some of the great moments of the Bar
have been men whose background and training would [inaudible] indicate
their participation in matters of human rights, but there have been
outstanding men who have risen to the occasion and there's a great deal
of ferment right now. I may be biased, I would say at the Bar session that
we had this discussion of racism at, I would say at least fifty percent
responded positively. Ninety-five of the fifty percent were young men, this
is a partly part of it.
00:58:03
But there's a ferment going on, and there's a ferment going on on the
bench. One judge on the municipal bench has, for weeks now, been
attending classes in Afro-American studies, and he is directing his efforts
to involve other members of the bench. We're going to make a similar
effort directed at the Bar. When I proposed the idea of this discussion of
racism and the administration of justice, the president of the Hennepin
County Bar Association responded not only well, but [snaps fingers] just
like that. We will always lag, I think, it's part of our bag, but it's not
completely black and --
00:58:59
[Laughter]
00:59:04
There I go! It's an area in which, if the rest of the community will zero in on
the Bar and keep reminding us that after all your responsibility is not law
and order but justice and keep the pressure on us, the younger men will
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 21
eventually carry the day. An answer to the thing you mentioned at first reprisal, I don't anticipate that.
00:59:41
[Unidentified speaker] Yes.
00:59:43
[Audience member] You mentioned Afro-American Studies, I wonder to
what extent you feel that, by teaching white people about Afro-American
studies and judges, this would--what's the goal here, is this going to
reduce some sort of prejudice or what's the idea behind it?
01:00:02
[Douglas Hall] This will get at the heart of the prejudice and here it gets
back to Mr. Hines' point. If by getting into Afro-American studies, the result
is that judges will begin to look at people as human beings regardless of,
then you get it to heart.
01:00:26
[Audience member] You think this should start at the college level or you
think it should start younger or what's the ideal here?
01:00:33
[Douglas Hall] Well it starts in the family, and for example, if you don't
mind a personal reference, I came out of a family and a social climate in
which I never heard the words ‘Negro’ or ‘Jew,’ it was always n***** and
k***, and it was through my high school experience, that I began to get
over that. As a result, our children started twenty-five, thirty years ahead of
where we started, and if, I suppose some of you may have come from
families for the stereotype and so forth is the order of the day The extent
that you're here now, you're working out of it. And as your families come
along and so forth, we'll eventually get to it.
01:01:41
[Audience member] Mr. Hall, what kind of reforms would you [inaudible]
01:01:51
[Douglas Hall] I hate to reveal my ignorance, but after I spoke at the Bar
Association, I was in last Sunday's paper. Congress has passed a Jury
Reform Act for federal courts, and there’s a story about it from the New
York Times Service and all of the existing systems which don't encompass
this core have to be scrapped and there has to be a deliberate attempt,
when you select your overall jury panel, that it is representative of the
community socio-economic strata [the audio briefly cuts out] but if your
overall jury panel is built that way then you've got a chance.
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 22
01:02:44
One thing you run into now and this was used in the meeting, they say
that the Negro population in Minneapolis is two percent, we have two
percent on our juries, therefore it's fair. This is a numbers game, because
the things that lead to crime result in many more than two percent of the
defendants in the criminal system being Black or poor or Indian, so the
numbers game falls apart there. We're going to make an interesting effort
here. The jury system, selection system in Hennepin County is done by a
rule of the court. The justices of the bench administrates it, so we're going
to make an effort to get a group of lawyers together and petition that this
new federal policy be applied to Hennepin County as a matter of judicial
rule and this is going to put to the bench, and we'll see what happens.
01:03:53
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:04:14
[Douglas Hall] I think by and large it's clear that the law schools have not
paid enough attention to the problems of the Black student coming into an
alien atmosphere in an alien system and so that the push off process, the
burden, the academic burden, hasn't been recognized and it's particularly
true out here. One of the most inspiring things that I've ever been to was
conferences of the NAACP [National Association for the Advancement of
Colored People] Legal and Educational Fund, that for years have brought
Black men out of the south, supported them through the northern law
schools, then they go back into the south to practice.
01:05:06
And this is one of the greatest group of men I have ever seen in my life!
And this program has paid off, and they're back in the south carrying on
the fight, although one of the strangest things I ever saw was that same
conference was a lawyer, Black, who looked and sounded like Everett
Dirksen, if you can imagine anything more incongruous than that
[inaudible].
01:05:36
[Unidentified speaker] I'm sorry but I think we're going to have to call the
meeting to a halt. There is as you know a Dudley Rigg’s Brave New
Workshop --
[The recording cuts off at 01:05:52]
“People or Property” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 23
Show less
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0217
Description: The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald B... Show more
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0217
Description: The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines, and Ronald
Sample discuss residential segregation and racism in a panel moderated by Dr. Myles
Stenshoel. Ada Deer asks a question at the end as part of the audience. The panel was
part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as
"One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:10:39
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Miles Stenshoel] We're going to try to get going as soon, as quickly as
possible this morning. Some of the people who are on the--on your folder,
are not here and we've been very fortunate that some others have been
able to come in at the last moment.
00:00:19
Let's start over at my left just a brief introduction here. Ronald Sample,
representing TCOIC [Twin Cities Opportunities Industrialization Center].
Ron Edwards was not able to be here, and Mr. Sample was called in, I
guess, at the very last moment, so we welcome him. Reginald Berry is
over here. He is a student at Central High School. Gary Hines, next to Mr.
Sample, a student of Central High School, and Mr. Harold Andrews in the
center here.
00:00:57
[Inaudible sounds as Stenshoel speaks with others about audio
equipment] This is the tape recorder. [Inaudible]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 1
00:01:13
Mr. Andrews has a number of positions, and I was asking him for them,
and he gave him to me so thick and fast I couldn't get them all down. He's
chairman of the United Southside, he is retained by the School Board for
something else [audience laughs], he's the assistant pastor of Sabathani
Church and I think most of these people probably wear a number of hats
and I don't think we're going to spend too much time with that. Some of
their identity will come out undoubtedly in the discussion and I think the
format which we might use is to ask these people to speak as a panel to
some of these questions, to interact with each other initially for perhaps
the first half of the period that we have, and then we'll try to open it up and
make room for all sorts of comments and questions which could very well
at that time come into play.
00:02:16
The title that has been given to this particular section is that of, "Our
Forgotten Neighbors," and the lede, or the subtitle is, "The inadequacy of
Public and Community Services in the Ghettos." It seems to me that
there's hardly any rejoinder to this bleak fact that in our ghetto
communities our services are much less than adequate. Parks don't seem
to be nearly as common or as well kept up, playgrounds often are very
minimal if existing at all, swimming pools have closed, the quality of our
schools, many of these facilities are obsolescent [sic] or non-existent,
perhaps in area of social work there are problems here.
00:03:04
The problem of absenteeism, I think most of us would recognize
absenteeism of landlords, of teachers, absenteeism of social workers,
absenteeism of ministers. We all go back to our own worlds, we're not
there. Now I think maybe the best thing to do is just simply ask the people
to begin, and maybe it will begin with you Mr. Sample, just you with an
initial statement and then you can all react to each other and I'll try to stay
out of it as long as you keep this thing moving. Alright?
00:03:44
[Ronald Sample] Alright, [inaudible]. You want an initial statement from me
and I just got here? That's nice. [the audience laughs] Well I could do no
more than elaborate a little bit more on what you've already opened
discussion on. We all know that the areas which we're talking about are
greatly neglected.
00:03:55
[Myles Stenshoel] I think we're going to have a problem with that air
system. It's making an awful lot of noise. Maybe I can ask that you speak
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 2
a little louder and possibly it would be a good idea if you would stand for
these people.
00:04:13
[Ronald Semple] I was afraid you were going to say that. [the audience
laughs] There are great deal of problems that we have to overcome in
ghetto areas, you want to call it the ghetto area. This term ghetto, of
course, is being grossly misused, but for sake of identification we do use
the word “ghetto.” At any rate, as you have stated, parks, playgrounds,
other recreational areas do go lacking to a great degree in many of these
neighborhoods.
00:04:46
Also, there's another [Inaudible] to this whole thing that is extremely
important and perhaps we'll get into a discussion on that a little later, and
that is a problem of the welfare of people in relationship to the people in
these areas of we prefer to describe more or less as a poor neighborhood.
Certainly, we have found out in the recent months that the welfare worker
or the social worker you might call them that, have very little time or can
take very little time to do social work and this is had a great impact upon
the relationship between the people in the neighborhood and these social
workers.
00:05:23
A lot of problems to this one, and I think that everyone should become
aware of these problems and also by doing so, whatever means are
necessary I think we can start working out ways and means of correcting
this gross injustice or inadequacy in our social structure so with that I'm
going to sit down because I did not come here even prepared to
participate. I was going to sit out there with you and listen, but somebody
spotted me and I think I have on the wrong shirt this morning. [the
audience laughs] So I'm gonna let these other gentlemen here go ahead
and say what they have to say because I don't want to say anything wrong
here.
00:06:13
[Miles Stenshoel] Yep. Do you want to make a statement now? It might be
a good idea to stand so they can [inaudible].
00:06:19
[Gary Hines] The problems in the so-called “ghetto” are centered around
exploitation. In fact, if not the whole matter of the problem is exploitation.
You see, whenever there's a group of people on top, in order to stay on
top, they must exploit those below them, or else their position of
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 3
supremacy, you know, will no longer preside. So they must prey on those
subservient to them. In the so-called “ghetto” from which I came, in New
York, Harlem, you have to really live with it to know what you're talking
about really. I mean you can go in and look and study and do this and
that, but you don't really know until you live with it, you know, and know
what it really means to have a bottle of pop and one of these little tents
and cakes around here and that's your breakfast dinner and lunch for the
day.
00:07:21
Things like this come home you know, to who? Nobody's home, you know,
your mother's gone. She went, she took the baby to the hospital. You
know, the baby got better by a rat or something in this nature. Your
father's out, you know, playing the numbers doing this and that. All trying
to make some kind of life for his family. You see, Black people have never
really lived in this country we've only survived and it's a matter of survival
in the ghetto, survival of the fittest, and you see, this is why you can't be,
there's no such, I don't want anything about any Black men being dumb.
00:07:56
Undereducated yes, possibly, very possibly, but not dumb because you
can't be dumb and Black and survive in this country. Every Black man
alive today. [Applause] Every Black man alive today has to have some
very high degree of intelligence in order to, you know, survive in this racist
society. So you're looking to get on, what do you see? Vices of every sort,
but why? You know, you see militancy, why? You know, you see
prostitution, pimps, and all this mess, dope addiction, why? It wouldn't be
there unless it was a necessity.
00:08:37
People have to have something to grasp on, something to live with, you
know, and so with that, you know, general statement more or less about
conditions in the ghetto I guess turn it over to Mr. Andrews.
00:08:50
[Miles Stenshoel] We're gonna skip Mr. Andrews just briefly and we're
gonna jump over here to Reginald Berry.
00:09:01
[Reginald Berry] I belong to a group in Minneapolis which is known as
DECOY, Determined Ebony Council of Youth. One of our jobs is to get
Black people together. We feel that the problem for white people, like
Lillian Anthony said, was to get white people together. Our job is to get
Black people our age together. Black people, so that we can, we're the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 4
ones who know and you can be an adult and think what your child needs,
but we were the ones who were getting what you think we need, so we
feel that we have a better position, because we have, we're in a position to
get it. So we feel that we have enough sense the youth of our age, Gary is
in tenth grade, I'm a senior, the youth our age to think for our own selves.
00:09:42
So DECOY, one of the things we've done was we've had Malcolm X, this
parental excuse, that was through DECOY, Determined Ebony Council of
Youth. Martin Luther King will have that off, that was through DECOY,
Determined Ebony Council of Youth, and we're working on other projects
in the neighborhood. One thing I think that we have to realize is what a
ghetto really is. I think there is a dictionary, maybe the Webster New
World Dictionary says a “ghetto” is a group of ethnic people in a certain
area, therefore all over the country we've had Polish ghettos, we've had
Italian ghettos, Swedish ghettos, Harlem, before the Black man inhabited
in Harlem.
00:10:27
Harlem was owned by the Swedes, by the Germans, by the Irish, and then
came across the Black people. They were the last immigrants, or not
immigrants but people to inhabit Harlem. First, they were in Greenwich
Village and all over. See, Black people are on the boats unloading, I mean
on the shores unloading the Irish running from the potato famine,
unloading the boats for them so that they could settle in such areas as
Harlem before they ran [Inaudible] was the Germans.
00:10:55
Another thing I think we have to realize is whatever happens in
Minneapolis is gonna affect whatever happens in this state, whatever
happens in the state's gonna affect what happens in this country, and
whatever happens in this country affects what happens in the world,
therefore, white people try to get their self together in Minneapolis still be
doing a good justified thing because they'll be helping the state, therefore,
helping the world the whites all over the world.
00:11:30
Another problem that they say in the so-called “ghetto” is what I believe is
Black Power. Black people need power, black powers to control the
politics and politicians in their communities, control the businesses in their
communities, that's what's made the black ghetto in the first place. It's like
when you, a white person, owns a store in a black district ghetto, so-called
ghetto, what happens? You take your money from what you make from
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 5
your little job or what you got, the Black man has got from pimping or a
woman from prostituting or whatever it means they had to survive in its
society.
00:12:05
They take it to that store, what happens? The white person doesn't live in
that community, that poor Black community. He lives out in let's say no
offense on none of you, the suburbs, so what happens? He takes his
money that you give him to the suburbs and he spends out in the suburbs.
While the suburbs is getting richer and richer, the city, the so-called ghetto
is getting poorer and poorer. Therefore that neighborhood is poorer and
poorer. Like I said, it's control the politics and the politicians. You should
get somebody politically so that they can have something to do, so you
can get what you want through politics in that community.
00:12:44
For instance, over by Central High School, the railroad, streetcar tracks
that are still there, it's been ever since the streetcars disbanded. That's
one of the things that we need removed, let's say, that I know around
Central High School. Another thing we should learn in all the schools in
Minneapolis, all over the country, the history of so-called minority. I say
we're so-called because I believe minority, the people that they say we are
minorities, I believe we are in the majority. Because like I said, whatever
happens in the city affects the state, state the country, and the country,
the world.
00:13:15
There are more Black people in the world than there are white, so I
believe that I am a majority, not a minority. We should learn the history of
Black people all over the world, the history of the Indian, the Portuguese,
not Portuguese, the Spanish who came here, and who are also
oppressed. We should learn the history of them so that we can have more
respect for them as individuals and as people.
00:13:42
[Miles Stenshoel] Mr. Andrews.
00:13:14
[Harold Andrews] Well there's so many ways of approaching such a broad
subject as you have here. However, I'm interested in a couple of things.
Everyone has been talking about this word “ghetto” and as we use it, it's
for composing a certain element of people into one geographical area, and
it has its evils and it has it's good side.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 6
00:14:15
I'd like to relate to your story with my hometown which is Gary, Indiana.
Gary was founded in 1906 by Judge Elbert Gary and that city was built
around those steel mills for the purpose of having a community for the
men to live in to work in those mills. Well, we know the story of labor, we
know that even those of us who are uneducated could wield a hammer,
push a wheelbarrow or just scarf which is taking hot steel and throw it
around. This kind of work was available, so you found a lot of Black
people migrating from the South to the great North to get such jobs and as
this began to happen more and more would come. One fella come up,
say, "Well, this is pretty good, I'll send for old cousin Zeke and his eight
kids," and so he sent for Zeke.
00:15:08
Next thing you know, Black people started to just expand in that city, but
there's a peculiar thing about it. Just as they were just mentioning, they
were fused into an area of six square miles in that city and as they began
to diffuse and diffuse, they were spread out within the realms of this radius
and so what happened? We began to look around, and we realized that
out of the nine council medic districts in the city of Gary, Indiana, we were
living in six of them, but we didn't have any representation.
00:15:38
Here's a perfect example of black power. We got together and we decided
well, we've got to make the people aware of their political prowess, that
they have the power at this point, to put into office some of these people.
We're talking about political economies for as black power is concerned.
So the first year, myself and another gentleman ran for office and we
came in second to the incumbents. Then later you know what happened
we have a mayor there are now a black mayor, a black chief of police, a
black chief of the fire department, assistant chief is black, we got a black
echelon in a City Hall now, and it's what it should be.
00:16:12
Because the population there is and I quote, "Fifty-five black, thirty-five
white, and the rest is what they call undesirable." Well they must want to
be bad. I won't even mention who they are. However, this is an example of
black power, of how it can be used and how it can be turned around. The
ghetto can be used against. If the white mayor were really smart, the best
solution to his problem, which is the Black man is open occupancy
because when you put these people together they began to share
attitudes, they began to share frustrations, and it began to unite, and next
thing you know you've got explosions.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 7
00:16:59
Then you say it's an awful riot, but it's not a riot, it's a rebellion it's like a
coil spring. You just push it back so far and that's as far as it's gonna go
and it's coming back the other direction, and this is what's developing and
in that, and in reference to your social agencies there's a great exploitation
there. I thought that in my hometown and fact that I was running for the
office of township trustee, but I came here and found the same thing as
just as prevalent in Minneapolis, Minnesota. People have been exploited
tremendously by such agencies. Number one, your public relief. There we
found that people who had food vouchers would pay almost fifty percent
more than a person who paid cash for food.
00:17:43
Then there are certain stores that you had to go to and these stores are
being fed on the table through the administrator and they had a thing
going. The exploitation. And then if your family is starving. Now this is
supposed to be any immediate necessity in this particular office, this is
why I mention it. You walk up you say, "Well I need for right now. My
family's hungry. We don't have rent." "Well, would you fill out this form and
bring it back next week? and you're*" starving, and this is what's going on.
It would be funny if they were not so pathetic.
00:18:08
This such a thing is prevalent. As far as the welfare is concerned, I work
for the welfare department. I find the same thing prevalent here with your
welfare department and that's this: you give one caseworker a load of
cases. Now he's got to figure out a budget for all these people. Then here
comes food stamps now, so now he's got to make out a pink form for the
food stamps, and certify the family for food stamps, and then expect to
see 271 people out of 365 days regularly, and they all have their dire
needs, their immediate needs.
00:18:42
How can one individual do this? Then the budget is so is strained, why the
guy got a degree in social work or in sociology, why go to a Hennepin
County Social Work office when you get more money if you go to the
school board and you go elsewhere and get some fancy title and a big
salary you sit around and sign papers all day, so it's this thing, number
one, I think there should be more money and this comes to your county
board. There's too much political chicanery involved and these are the
things that cause exploitation. Some of these things are not black and
white issues. They are political issues. The issues that we need to just
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 8
clean up the city, polish it up, go into the administration and see what is
being done.
00:19:17
We're sitting here right now, I doubt if 7% of you are aware of the things
that are going on in your, just in your the Hennepin County Welfare
Department and you look at that poor caseworker and say why in the hell
aren't you doing your job, and they're doing the best they can do under
such circumstances, but you don't start at the top of the tree [inaudible]. I
know nothing about it but I know I wouldn't start looking at the leaf to cure
it. I'd go down at the trunk, go down at the roots, and this way we need to
start our administration as far as alleviating the things involved with our
case work and with our welfare.
00:19:56
Now just on a one-to-one basis, in the community you talk about our
neighbors this word is a word that has been tossed around as much as in
the other word it's a word like I'd say "table", "chair" and that's how I feel
about it now, this is what we feel about it. When you say neighbor it's just
an inanimate object, there's no compassion anymore for neighbor. This
I'm talking about his attitude. You know, one time Christ was asked who
his neighbor was and he told a story about the Samaritans and if you're
familiar with the mosaic dispensation of how things were in that particular
area, the Samaritans and the Jews had no dealings with one another. The
Samaritans weren't Orthodoxed and they were people who were looked
down upon. But he was a Samaritan, one who was an outcast in such
society, such as a Black man who came along and helped this man who's
supposed to be more privileged than he. This is, he said, is his neighbor.
00:20:4
Now you want to know, who are our neighbors? No more are our
neighbors the people offered lip service, no more are our neighbors the
people who shake their heads with sympathy, but our neighbors are the
people who help us as we struggle on this journey, along this road, as a
man did the way [inaudible], who really give us the aid you say what kind
of aid? I don't think I'd have to duplicate what Mrs. Anthony's already said.
That's one way and this is one way to affect attitudes, now what I have
found, as far as attitudes concerned is this, from when in such a meeting
as we are now it is so easy to get anyone of you who are white to stand up
and say such adequate eloquent words about, "I believe," and "This is
what we should do," but when you're among all white company, do you
have the courage to maintain that same attitude?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 9
00:21:40
I am in such a position to know that in most cases you do not. I have
talked to people who were sincere enough to tell me that when they get
into all-white company and they began to discuss these things, "I might
say well the n****** are looking for a handout," and I'm quoting something
which I'm going to tell you about a little later, and you say well, yeah that's
right, and you get right it with them. It takes courage. What am I saying?
00:22:03
Belief is not enough, belief is not sufficient. It takes faith in what you're
doing, not belief. I often demonstrate to my congregation that I could say
to all of you, and probably convince you to an extent, but I believe that this
chair will hold me, but until I execute my faith, and sit down in this chair,
you cannot say that my belief is worth a thing.
00:22:33
[Miles Stenshoel] Okay very good now we've had a number of things
approached here. I wonder if I might, well maybe we ought to go back
here to Mr. Sample. You did say that you wanted to say something more
about social work. Did you not suggest that?
00:22:48
[Ronald Sample] I said I hoped we would get into it.
0022:50
[Miles Stenshoel] Maybe it would be a good idea, I think that this is time to
ask ourselves some questions about, or for you to interact some on the
question of social work and problems that might be here. Now whether
you have any suggested solutions.
00:223:09
[Ronald Sample] Well Mr. Andrews touched upon it as well, very well. The
point of it is, is it is an attitude or practice, which we don't seem to realize
in our social structure, our social welfare structure, that actually we
criticize the people for being on welfare then penalize them for trying to
get off, and this is kind of ridiculous, not only that, our social welfare
system is based on an intentional seem to be seemingly intentionally to
break up the family. One of the most ironic things is that in order for a
mother or a family who needs the help to get for instance money that the
father cannot make enough money because of the inability to get the kind
of employment in order to be able to take care of his family.
00:23:59
The system is now structured so he has to leave home. He has to sit down
in the living room with his wife and say, "Look, I can't make enough money
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 10
to feed my family, you can get more on ADC [Aid for Dependent Children].
I'm going to leave home, you file for divorce and then go and get on ADC."
In other words, we actually encourage the man, the breakup of the family,
then we criticize his mother for getting on ADC. Now she's on ADC,
maybe she doesn't like to be on ADC and we found and in our experience
that generally, they do not. But if she has the intestinal fortitude to go out
and try to find a job, she has to find a job good enough to compensate for
the losses she's going to experience when she gets that job or else it's a
financial risk for her to take the job and this is what I meant by we criticize
them for being on relief and then we turn right around and penalize them
for trying to get off, so on top of that we are encouraging the break up of
the family.
00:25:09
So to me, this is a very strong part of the necessity of changing this
particular structure in our welfare system. Also Mr. Andrews pointed out
the interesting fact that we have far too many caseloads per caseworker.
These people go to college for 4 years to learn how to do social work and
they turn out to be nothing but an accountant investigator in the home, and
have no time whatsoever to counsel these people and to help them when
they need help. This is my indictment of our social structure.
00:25:44
[Harold Andrews] I mean this is not hypothetical, this is a case, a case that
I had. There was a young lady who had graduated from high school and
had been put in just such circumstances that her husband had left home.
After what she applied for AFDC [Aid to Families with Dependent Children]
upon her application she was accepted and she moved into governmental
housing also. Number one, she was a kind of person, she comes from a
fine home. She liked to live good. she bought a television. They want to
know where she got the money to get a television.
00:26:22
This is just one little minor thing. Then she had been taken a nursing
course but she had completed it, she went down and got a part-time job at
Methodist Hospital, and the money that she was making at the hospital, it
was a supplementary sort of thing, but what did a case what I have to do?
Counterbalance that to her budget what she was received from welfare.
Consequently, she said I may as well just sit home and then just make the
money I'm making no more because they're taking it off of what I'm
making on my relief, you know from my welfare. This is a thing to keep a
person on welfare, to alleviate poverty you should create a system, a
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 11
program within the system, in which you could have people to go to to
graduate until they are off but as it is now you must stay poor to keep the
exploiters in business you got to stay poor.
00:27:13
You guys tell me I'm not a very interesting factor and I've questioned
Congressman Fraser last week when he was here about this. The Bureau
of Labor Statistics along with your USDA statistics United States
Department of Agriculture Statistics state that they consider family of
poverty to be making $3,500. Each year, those of us who are employed,
fortunately, who do earn a living, every year we get an annual increase in
cost of living, but that has not been increased as far as the poor man's
concerns since 1959. In other words, we make more because you know
cost of living.
00:27:53
Isn't the cost of living going up for the poor people? So still, to qualify
even, not only for AFDC, you take the kids. I work with kids in the school,
to get on in the neighborhood youth court to work, your family has to make
this. A family making $4,000 is just as poor as the $3,500 and you know it,
you couldn't live on $4,000. I can't by myself, and this is what I'm saying,
the thing is so structured that the poor, they'd say this about Republicans
but I won't say this by Republicans, I just said generally, the poor get
poorer the rich get richer and this is the way the thing is set up. This is
where the structure of this thing is, and I think if there's something to be
done, if that's somewhere not just a point a finger, but some source in
which we can approach to really alleviate such a situation, and so that we
can't say that people are in poverty and they don't want to get to, you
know, we got a lot of this Calvinistic Puritanism going around too, that
those people are just destined to be that way and we are destined to be
this way, which is ridiculous, but we find it in Congress.
00:28:58
This is why you have some congressmen saying, "We don't want to pass it
more bills on poverty. We have to get to the source," and the source is
getting to your county board or getting right there in Congress, which is
pretty difficult now, let's not be ridiculous, let's look at the county board
level and get such things, alleviate, and as we say, as Reggie has said, if
we can get it done here, then it will affect the state and it will affect other
areas and perhaps it can be done all over the country, but I must also
come in. I want to commend this city, in spite of all of these things that are
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 12
here, I found in my traveling all over this country, Minneapolis, Minnesota
by far is the number one city as far as I'm concerned.
00:29:13
Here, I see progress moving more tremendously than anywhere in this
country, but that has no means or no reason for us to stop, but we must
continue to be, to remain on top.
00:29:50
[Miles Stenshoel] May I ask a sort of a general question here, any of you
want to say more here that's fine, but it seems to me that we often get the
impression that great numbers of people in this country have become, well
the nice word would be disenchanted with the establishment or the various
political establishments and have more or less thrown up their hands and
said what's the use of trying to work through the establishment.
00:30:16
Now. I've noticed, at least from some of the comments this morning, that
that utter hopelessness does not seem to be present here, that there may
be some possibilities. Now can we ask this general question about
whether you think that the means of meeting these problems is, via
various establishments; political, economic, and otherwise. Can we reform
them? Are they reformable? Or is the exploitation of such a sort that these
things have to be shaken, not not just shaken, but perhaps even
destroyed and other forms take their place?
00:31:01
It seems to me that there's been, let me say, sort of an optimistic
conservatism here, representative in what you have said, Mr. Andrews,
and perhaps also Mr. Sample. What do you think about this, panel
generally, I know Gary, you haven't had a chance to say anything since
you started, maybe we ought to not discriminate [audience laughs] against
the youth here either, perhaps give our high school representatives a
chance to say something.
00:31:32
[Gary Hines] Well you said a mouthful, could you put it in one question,
that I could, you know.
00:31:40
[Miles Stenshoel] Well! [the audience laughs] Gary, is there any hope, is
there any hope working through the establishments that we have, that is
the political processes. Can we sufficiently reform the political processes
or meet the problems through the political process, do you see hope here?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:32:02
Oh, yes I see hope. I see who has a Black man, and when you see him as
a Black man, that's a pretty broad range because when you're in a
position of subservience and for such a long period of time, you know, 400
years to be exact, you see hope and a whole lot of things, and you have to
differentiate between that which is superficial and that, you know, which is
meaningless, so as for the, you know, going through politics, it's possible
and I do see a certain amount of hope in it, but one thing has to be done.
00:32:40
We have to start getting some black politicians, you know, up in some of
these positions because you just don't do things the way they are now,
you know, have a white man speak for Black people, come in look at the
so-called ghetto and to tell the truth aren't enough black people of
Minnesota to make up a real ghetto, but come in look, observe, you know,
in all this mess, copy down data, data whatever you want to call it, take
notes and come back and report to his little group and all of a sudden he's
an authority on Black people. Nowadays they have such thing, and I don't
use the word, but this is a terminology they use, "Negro psychologists,"
"Negro sociologists," you know, you come in you know like we're some
kind of animals you know things of this nature.
00:33:25
But as we're seeing politics as the direct means, you have to include
politics and naturally, you know my definition of black power is political,
psychological, 0 social, and economical advancement for Black people by
Black people by any means necessary. So if politics is one of the more
pleasant means than so be it. But if politics takes too long like it has been
doing you know passing bills to make people human, human rights bill
taking the country where the red man and then tells them he has to do a
certain thing before he's a citizen that's what your politics is gonna do, you
know, forget it you know give it to us [inaudible], we know how to handle
things of this nature.
00:34:09
[Reginald Berry] You got remember there was no noise made until they
had the so-called riot which we call social, economical revolutions. They
didn't pass things, people weren't congregating in rooms like this all over
the country or until after the so-called riots and then you remember as
soon as the riot happened to Detroit the first thing that this government did
was pas an anti-riot bill. That's gonna stop people from rioting. It was in
the newspaper, in the black, there's a part of the south which they call the
black belt world.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:34:45
Black people are congregated in a certain area among cities, I think, and
states. Am I correct? Remember when the Civil Rights bill was being
passed in 1964, the same people who are who are trying to stop the Civil
Rights bill from being passed were the people, the white politicians, from
that area of the Black Belt. This is the way our government was set up.
They tell us that the South lost the war and look who we had running for
president, two people from the South. Two. I don't care, two which I say
are more racist; Johnson and Goldwater. You could have a person that's
Goldwater or Wallace right now who is a segregationist and he's almost in
a position where he can announce he's going to run for president.
00:35:27
This is the way this government is built up. Through politics it takes
something like a social economic revolution to bring about the freedom of
Black people in America. When I say Black people I say anything that isn't
white, because anything that isn't white has been exploited by white
people. That's why I say it has to start from the grassroots level, for me I
have to start within yourself. White people, there wouldn't be no problem
at all if white people weren't racist, that's where it all started from the first,
besides the slaves back there. Wouldn't be no problems there one for
people who we got in position as president [inaudible] sell out things like
that.
00:36:07
This isn't our country, this isn't our government. Where everything we say
is America is our country, it's our country right or wrong it should be, is our
country right or wrong, because if you learn the history of the so-called
minority people or Black people in America in the world you find out that
our country hasn't been right a whole lot of times. If it has we wouldn't be
in this predicament we are in today. This is something we have to look
within ourseves and realize is there a solution to the problem.
00:36:35
I find the solution to the problem is right here in our high school in our
colleges. I find talking to high school students and college students, there
are more not really sympathetic more speaking out for Black people for
the impression that they've had for all these years than these older adults.
What can we do, we got like I said, you get the people high schools and
college students you 0 know what the problem is because you see more
of the problem because you're getting a little bit more, like I said,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 15
communication is bringing a problem to you. So what you got to do, you
got to educate.
00:37:08
You got to look around you and see the situations and you got to do
something about them that work with us work, and you know, be the
leaders of us but work with us side-by-side.
00:37:21
[Ronald Sample] I'd like to speak to this hope bit as well. Naturally, when
you have light there's hope if you feel that there is no hope the person who
feels hopeless gives up, but a person who feels that there is hope
continues the struggle now he takes his struggles as he sees it, as he
sees is necessary to take them. Twenty years ago we were trying to
communicate in that nice easy way [inaudible] almost the prayerful look,
nobody listened. What are you saying about our good old people here in
America we can't do good talk, sweet talk just doesn't get it, only anything
it guesses a girl. But when it comes to rights or it becomes to creating a
situation to eliminate injustice for justice. For some reason or another we
can't listen in America. It takes an act.
00:38:22
It takes the sledgehammer between the mule's eyes in order to get your
attention, and if it has to be the violence which seems to be your means of
communication then that's the way it is. Certainly we have tried to
communicate with you in so many ways to show you that we didn't want to
join the establishment and that many times before I had listened to many
of the Black leaders say they didn't want to change the establishment,
they only wanted to be a part of it, that they wanted to share in the fruits of
the economy. However, today we feel that perhaps it is a necessity to
change a few things, certainly any action that we take in a political action
or any other kind of an action is an action for change whether we can do it
within the structure as it has been pointed out remains a good deal in
white America's hands, in your hands.
00:39:20
It's according to how you're listening and it's according to how well we can
communicate with each other and with how you can communicate with
yourselves. Certainly if you're not understanding what it is that we're trying
to say, by word, then some kind of action has to be taken in order to get
your attention, and so we do think that there is perhaps some hope so that
this can be worked out, but we don't believe now that it can be done
entirely within the establishment. There has to be changes.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:39:54
[Miles Stenshoel] Do you have any more you can add on?
00:39:56
[Harold Andrew] Well I want to say that I believe indubitably that this is
definitely an era of Renaissance and as Mr. Sample has said, we are a
nation who respond to violence. Our history tells this, the reformation of
industry, of labor and capitalism in the city, capital I meant to say, in this
country was a result of riots, those of us who can recall and it has always
been this sort of spontaneous action that has really gotten attention, but
I'm looking at even something more important. This is a element of a
different texture, one that is so foolish, you see, discrimination, I see
nothing wrong with discrimination.
00:40:51
I discriminate, but it's the thing that you base your discrimination on. Is
there certain people that I definitely will not socialize with because we
have nothing in common, there are people who I can go backwards by
myself I don't want anybody help me go backwards. I discriminate from
those type of people. I discriminate with the man who has no ambition,
what can we meet socially, but he could be black, blue, purple, or green.
It's the thing that I discriminate upon, not his colour. As I walked into us
the high school I was investigating racism, and when I walked into the
door I was discriminated against.
00:41:29
They didn't know whether I was Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, what didn't
know if I was rich or poor, a fool, or wise but they knew one thing when I
hit that door I was black and right away that attitudes began to form the
new animosities began to come as I walked into the principal's office, one
of the faculty say, "Hey, a little civil rights action, huh," tongue-in-cheek
thing, and this is where I'm saying, it's so foolish. If I had two glasses here
a white glass and a black glass and you wanted to drink and there were
holes in the white glass, and the black glasses in perfect condition, would
you refuse the one that was perfect because it was black and drink out of
the white?
00:42:12
No, it was because of what the thing could do, and this is what we we look
so foolish in it so child it's the way we base these little idiosyncrasies on,
our discriminations upon. When we look at a person because they're
black, this is the attitude that we want to discourage. Personality we know
they're people. The other thing I detest is for a white person to walk up to
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 17
me and say, "Man, I like colored people," because it's something I can't
stand. But let's be, if we gotta be [inaudible] let's be [inaudible], let's be
candid about the situation and let's look at it and be more realistic is what
I'm saying as far as the structures concerned, as far as the system is
concerned, there's definite reformation in the system, because at this time,
no more will it be done through legislature, no more will it be done by the
bureaucrats, but by people like us, after all, we are the government.
00:43:03
Originally we were the government, but now it's one individual who goes
and sits in a seat and talks and says things that you may not even believe
in and votes for you. We must begin to put pressures. If we really feel this
as a people that we want such a thing done that we must affect our
legislature to the extent that he cannot go and legislate acts that we do
not, that are, that we feel that we don't want to be legislated. This is why I
must start here, and I have all the faith in the world in youth I believe that
this question will be alleviated and will be brought done by you, will be
done by the youth of today this generation because I see my hope is in
this generation as Berry has said. I have very little faith in the generation
that superseded me, but we're young people, we're gonna get it done
that's all.
00:43:58
[Miles Stenshoel] Well, I want to open it up now to responses, questions,
comments, or whatever kinds of responses you think. I'd like to accept my
own invitation first [audience laughs] with a couple of specific questions.
That's something that I've got going for me by sitting up here. With respect
to this question of the political participation and leadership, Black
leadership, now let me raise a question here in the context of the Twin
Cities area.
0044:32
We have a Metropolitan Council which has no governmental powers
really, though some people hope it will have more governmental powers.
Now there might be a, it might be true, if we were to have, work toward
develop a truly metropolitan area government for Minneapolis-St. Paul and
their suburbs with some kind of a common tax base and a common
acceptance of what are really all of our problems, that then the suburbs
would feel more a part of the whole thing, that we might be able to do
something here. It might be a plus thing.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:45:11
On the other hand, this would dilute Black power in terms of voting block
or in terms of something like this is. Is there any response that any of you
have to that?
00:45:23
[Reginald Berry] First of all, Minneapolis, in the south side of Minneapolis,
Black people are not congregated in one certain area. You may think
they're congregated on Fourth Avenue, but that's not true no more.
There's no certain area in Minneapolis, south side of Minneapolis there's
Black people spread out all over, one of the main issues that we feel
DECOY, feels is that the suburbs are getting paid to schools, the teachers
are getting paid more to teach out in the suburbs than they do in the city,
therefore if a teacher graduates from say Augsburg College and he's a
good teacher he's not gonna want to teach in the city because there's no
money in the city, so one of the one of the main, to get around, one of the
main issues is to get somebody you know all over the schools, the school
districts, all over the state to get the schools ran by statewide basis.
00:46:14
[Gary Hines] Once again you sort of said a mouthful, could you put it in
one specific question? [audience laughs]
00:46:19
Well, what would metropolitan government, the whole metropolitan area,
would this help or hinder from the solution of these problems?
00:46:32
They would hinder it definitely. I'll tell you why, first of all, I'd like to draw a
little synopsis between some clothes and human beings. Okay, I'll speak
up. If I go into a laundry to to get some clothes clean and I have one load
of white clothes and one load of black clothes now the object is to get both
sets of clothes clean, however, I find that if I put both sets of dirty clothes,
white and black, in the same washer, they not only do not become clean
but when I take them out of the washer I find that they have each other's
lint on them, I find that the white one is all grayed up from the black, I find
that the black one is all grayed up from the white, I find that everyone's all
linen and dotted up, and things are worse then when I put them in there.
00:47:33
However, I find that when I put the right one in the washer, get it clean and
put the black clothes in the washer and get them clean and get them all
dried up, then I can put them in the same basket together. Now what does
this say? The lint represents animosities between white and black. Now on
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 19
the white side, white people are still two races, you've just found that out,
you know, with the President's Advisory Commission report.
00:47:58
Black people have known it for four hundred years, [audience laughs] and
Black people, you know, seeing the fact that we know this, Black people
are too bitter. Now you just don't mix bitterness and ignorance, you see.
You have to get each, you see, that's the so-called liberal. I hate to offend
any liberals here, but to me there is no such animal really. Now, what has
to be done--so many white people find out a little bit about the situation
and all of a sudden become authorities, but we won't get into that--find out
about it and the first thing they want to do is rush into the Black community
arms open, wallets open, pockets open. “What can I do? I've been wrong
so long.” Just trying to throw this over Black people and like I said, Black
people are too bitter.
00:48:49
Nine out of ten times until you go home, [inaudible] we don't want you.
See things like this, why one it's time for the Black man to stand up on its
own two feet. We've been waiting on the white man too long, too every
time he sees a white face it represents everything he's fighting for, you
see, not so much you and your white skin, but what your white skin has
enveloped in the past you see and held over Black men, so when you
come up there with your white face, arms open, wallets open, “what can I
do?”
00:49:23
You know what you can do, go out in your own communities as the man
mentioned before, anybody can stand up with the elegance, you know, of
a Frederick Douglass or a Patrick Henry, in your case [audience laughs]
and before a group of Black people and you know spout off at the mouth
about how much they love this and how much they know this is wrong and
mess of this nature. But what about when you get out in your own
communities, you have to get out into your own communities. We've got a
lot of cleaning up to do among ourselves. You see this is a revolution.
Revolution comes from evolution which means change, you know, gradual
change, only our change is changing a little bit faster than revolutions in
the past, you see, we have to redefine our set of values, which is why
nowadays you see the natural look.
00:50:09
You know, the long kinky curly whatever you want to call it hair. You see,
we're trying to redefine our own set of values so far as beauty goes and
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 20
you know [inaudible] and things of this nature. The reason why we've been
straightening the hair with the various lyes, permanence, hot combs in this
nature is because ever since, say the Black woman, has been able to read
or look in a magazine you know Seventeen, or COED, or In-Co Out-Co
[audience laughs] every depiction of beauty is white and has long flowing
hair. Well like I said this is a revolution and you know things are changing.
Now we're saying that black is beautiful what we have what we're proud
and you know yours is no better than ours.
00:50:52
So as for you know people coming in, we've been exploited too long as
soon as Black people try to get together and see your white face there,
they're gonna expect the exploitation and white people have been doing it
so long they may be doing it unconsciously, so we better, like I said get in
our own washers and get our own selves right separately.
00:51:13
[Miles Stenshoel] Okay now I'm going to forego my other question
because I gotta get you in here. I want to remind you of these gentlemen's
names so that if you wish you may address your questions or comments
to particular persons. Mr. Berry, Mr. Andrews, Mr. Hines, and Mr. Sample.
Berry, Andrews, Hines, and Sample, and Don Nichols had his hand up
first. I'm going to ask for this question.
0051:36
[Donald Nichols] It seems to me that one of the things that's been
mentioned several times is this business of black heritage, and I was
wondering what would be the best way to get this black heritage known? It
seems to me that at Augsburg College we should probably have a course,
something along this line, specifically oriented toward expounding this and
I was wondering how you felt about approaching it on this level or what
level do you feel is best? No one in particular.
00:52:10
[Reginald Berry] One of the things we did was, DECOY did, when we went
before the school board [audience laughs, possibly from something that
happened in the room] we got history. True history. One of the things we
said that we wanted true history taught in all the public schools. The
problem is from K through 12 when you're coming up through grade
school the first thing when you learn how to read, you read about Dick and
Jane, you know Dick and Jane out in the suburbs [audience laughs] with a
fine pretty dog, you know everything's mellow. So you know right away
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 21
the black youth has nothing to relate to and the white has nothing to relate
to with the black.
00:52:49
So, what they did, what they're doing now I believe in some of the great
schools they got integrated Dick and Jane books. [audience laughs] Right,
I don't know about the suburbs. Yeah, they're still in the suburbs. [he
laughs] One of the things, another thing is like K through 12 the problem,
like say you take up grass or weed don't cut the weed off at the top and
expect the weed not to grow no more you got to get down to the root of
the problem, the root of the problem is when the youth is young, when he's
coming up. You know, it's funny when a person never, when you're young
you can play with white kids and you see no difference, but as soon as
you start going to school, then you start seeing the difference.
00:53:26
Your mother says you can't play with him no more or their mother says
they can't play with you no more, things like that. It doesn't start until you
start getting in schools, when you start getting related to all these books
so what you gotta do, history's got to be taught. One of the things we said,
yeah, was K through 12 true history taught. History of Black people,
contributions that they've made, tell you we always talked about Charles
Drew because that makes me mad every time I think about it. He was the
inventor of blood plasma, a Black man, he in 1948, he got in a car
accident out in, I believe it was Georgia. What happens, he went to a
white hospital, they wouldn't serve him, all he needed was blood plasma
the invention that he had, invention that he made and what happens on
his way en route to a black hospital, he died.
00:54:11
So what we gotta do, we got to start getting these things together while
we're down here. Your little brother, you got to start letting him know.
That's why I believe it's in us, it's in us youth, that this problem is gonna be
solved. You wanna know what history do? You can find history books as
black men anywhere. One of the greatest books is, to me is “Before the
Mayflower” by Lerone Bennett, but then you can't stop at that book. You
got to start reading on and on about the Black man. I was lucky, I got
learned and so are most Black people they taught me white history in
school.
00:54:41
I learned about Patrick Henry's great statement, "liberty or death,"
"taxation without representation is tyranny." Black people been taxed
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 22
without being represented since they've been here. He didn't say nothing
about that or liberty or death, that's all they're crying in the so-called
ghettos, "Liberty or death."
00:55:00
[Crosstalk as the panelists decide who will speak]
00:55:05
[Harold Andrews] This is important I would say, but we say the basis of
this society is education, and yet it's the most outmoded facility. I guess
you're aware of this. Even in reading, we have gone back to the original
form of teaching kids to read. Now it's a very vital issue here at hand. I
was looking at a test yesterday, not a test but a survey and the question
was, I just wouldn't answer because of this the question kept talking about,
'Did I think that the culturally deprived children...?' I don't believe there's
such a thing as cultural deprivation, but cultural differences and this where
education must come in to let you know, because we don't learn by white
standards, we're deprived when really white Americans deprive because
they must learn of out standards and let them know there is a dual
standard, that we do have a heritage.
00:55:52
This is the essence of education in the schools, but it must go beyond the
schools. It didn't begin all in the schools as Gary was mentioning. While
psychologically, or socio-psychologically, we could say that what is known
as the the Negro self complex or the self-hatred complex which is
devolved from this is gathered at an early age, a kid's looking at television
and he sees the start. Everything is white, the hero is always white, and
the Black man his eyes get bold and hair is kinky hair straightens out and
he runs. [another panelist says something inaudible and the audience
laughs] Right, nothing to relate to. When they look at Tarzan as a beautiful
example.
00:56:37
Here's a native with a g-string on [audience laughs] and he's got a spear
with the head if he did that it would fall off and he's running from a lion in a
jungle--incidentally lions don't even live in the jungle that's a plains animal
if you know a thing about Africa. But anyhow, he runs it along comes a
white man on a vine screaming out a God curdling sound, no weapon,
he's got a knife. I never see him pull it out til he gets to the water with the
alligators and he says “Ungawah.” and the lion walks away. [Laughter]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 23
00:57:14
And there's a kid looking at this he's looking at this, a black kid, and he's
saying, Man, I ain't nothing. This is what he begins to think, he begins to
develop this self age of complex, so he begins to socially interact with
whites, he says, "I want to be white," because this is white but also the
white, this is what you're not looking at. The white kid is victimized too,
because as he looks at the same thing, this connotation is this that of
whiteness, that I could be an idiot but if I'm white I can make it and he's
right too, the way this thing is structured, the way our society is structured,
and then there is this unconscious development of black and white.
00:57:53
There are over 200 synonyms which depict black as ugly, a man who is
ousted from a union. He can't get a job anywhere, he's blackballed and we
know darn well black has nothing to do with not getting a job. Oh yes it
does, I'm sorry--but you see what I'm saying. “Blackmailed,” you can just
think of all kinds of words like this, this unconscious development of it, so
yes, we must start an institution and we're behind, and we're the basis, the
universities and the schools are the basis of education in society. The
basis of the structure of it and yet, we're so far behind that you got to
broaden a community like we're doing right now to find out about
blackness when it should start right here. I agree with you, and we're
doing it in a school system.
00:58:36
[Ada Deer, in the audience] I was wondering what you think about getting
the Black community and the Indian community together. I work in both
groups, and I find when I’m in one community I’m definitely, in that
community, isolated in the other Indian community, isolated in the Black
community, I’m talking about the other side. In both communities.
00:58:57
[Reginald Berry] That’s two different heritages.
00:58:58
[Ada Deer] It’s not! It’s not. My idea is one community. I mean, that’s what
I think would be ideal. [panelists speak to one another while the audience
member is speaking] But was wondering if you think at this point, using
your analogy about mixing clothes, black and white clothes, you think that
red clothes should not be in that mix too.
00:59
[Reginald Berry] See Black people have a whole lot of colors: black, red,
and yellow, and brown, so when we say “Black people” this is my
connotation, when I say black I mean anything that isn't white, because
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 24
that's what it is. White people are not white then you take to the extreme.
Someone may be pink as rose flowers or or so on, gray as a ghost. The
white people are not white but they relate to the extreme which is white.
Put up to a just sheet of paper and none of you are white. Black people, a
lot of Black people, are not black, but they relate to extreme which is
black. You say Indian mixed Indians and Black people together, you know,
you try to change white Indians and black? Dirty clothes, they've both
been exploited by white people. They both have a different heritage,
different backgrounds.
01:00:04
[Ada Deer] But do you think they can be brought together?
01:00:06
[Harold Andrews] We work together.
01:00:07
[Reginald Berry] We work together. We have, what's his name?
01:00:09
[Harold Andrews] Gray?
01:00:09
[Reginald Berry] Gray. [Inaudible]
01:00:12
[Harold Andrews] Harold?
01:00:13
[Reginald Berry] Yeah.
01:00:14
[Harold Andrews] We have, we work together--this is not, this is what--
01:00:17
[Ada Deer] Where is your Indian Representative today? [presumably she
is addressing Miles Stenshoel about the composition of the panel]
01:00:19
[Harold Andrews] Do you want us to live together, is that what you mean?
You say “today.”Did you invite the Indian?
01:00:24
[Miles Stenshoel] Yeah.
01:00:26
[Ada Deer] Yeah, he was invited. Now yes, yes you do live together
already on the Northside I know. But I definitely feel the barrier here--
01:00:32
[Reginald Berry] White people live on the Northside too.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 25
01:00:33
[Ada Deer] Pardon?
01:00:35
[Reginald Berry] White people live on the Northside too.
01:00:35
[Ada Deer] And white people, you’re right.
01:00:36
[Unidentified panelist] And they're exploited.
01:00:38
And I definitely feel barriers there.
01:00:38
[Harold Andrews] Well alright I'll tell you this. The Indian isn't here, my
grandpa's an Indian. I'll represent him.
01:00:47
[Laughter and applause]
01:00:52
[Harold Andrews] I'll give you a little Indian history a little exploitation. How
many of you familiar with the Cherokee march in Georgia? When
Cherokees were based right in Georgia, had land given to them by the
federal government, and when they were trapped they tried to throw them
off, take them off of this land and put them on other reservation for us it
was too [inaudible]. Anyway you want in a map if you want to know the
worst land in this country, the less productive, the most desolate just all
you have to do is get you an Indian territorial map and that's where it is.
This is what they've done to this man. They put him on this land and he's
got to till it he's got to make it produce, but no they had a nice piece in
Georgia and what happened? They were forced off, but they used the
white man's structure, they used the reformation, they went along with the
bureaucrats and they went through the federal courts and went up to the
high pillar councils and they won their case.
01:01:51
They won their case. General Grant was president at this time and the
federal court said that they had a right to stay there. You know what Grant
said? The president said, "All right you gave him this, you gave him these
rights now you help them stay there," and he had his troops to take these
people on a forced march. One thousand of them died and then as they
were marching along whites would come on taking their horses, taking
their property, and no one to defend them. [Inaudible] marched them off
this land. This is what's happened to the red man. You wonder why the
red man as you depict him the vanishing American with his horse tail took
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 26
his head drooped. Here's a man who has more of a gripe than anybody
here. He is the only man who can say he is an American.
00:02:36
He was here before, while the Black man came a year before the white
man came in 1519, a Black man was here as an indentured servant
working this land. Next year here come the pilgrims. All right, ever since
that time this man has been given the worst bit of it. This man has been
felt that he's had a part of defeat and not until now, not until now, you see,
here's a thing, let's look at it for like it is, you said [inaudible] doesn't have
any get up and go. You ask George Custer how much get up and go he
had, but you see when he did fight, it's the same thing we've been doing it
all through history when we we rebel, you call it a riot, when the Indians
attacked the white man and that time, it was a massacre, when he
attacked us it was a victory, you see what I'm saying? So yeah it's a
history.
01:03:23
Now as far as working together, we're definitely working together. Harold
Goodsky who I want you to hear him speak, I wish he were here now. A
very impressive speaker but to heck with speaking, we got things we're
doing. No it ain't in the Tribune every day, it's not in the Star, but that's not
where it's at. We got action moving and as Barry said, when we said
“black,” we're talking about the Indian, the Puerto Rican, any other
minority group as you so call us, and if they're out here they're
represented and that's why I want to go on record right now as
representing them because we're not speaking, we say black would mean
black, red, and every other color.
01:03:56
[Inaudible question from audience]
01:04:11
[Gary Hines] [Inaudible] has told me that teachers get paid more because
there's some law that was passed while the suburbs were growing get
more, paid more for each student out in the suburbs that they teach.
01:04:27
They, recently--this is a recent raise in the school system and six to seven
hundred dollars now, which is quite a bit more, it's not the teachers, it's
just the institution itself and it that's a different, a separate system from the
the Minneapolis Public School system and this is actually the problem. In
relations to the Alsop and Pettigrew debate about schools, quality of
schools, and Pettigrew says that we should bus them. But I go along with
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 27
Alsop and along with, what's-his-name, well anyhow! This is what he said.
"It's not the color of the school, but the quality of it." When we say quality,
we not only mean the facilities we're far less facilitated than the [inaudible]
suburban schools you know this. I was in Edina last week, Edina High
School and it looks better than Augsburg to tell you the truth, [audience
laughs]
01:05:20
And then, I mean they've got just tremendous things at their disposal. Now
these things [inaudible] We got a few talking typewrites coming into our
system [inaudibe] over negotiate on that few things, but still, that's just
facilities. It must be quality also in the teacher. Now as fas as the
sensitivity is speaking of I assume, I think that [inaudible] going along with
the young man's question over here. Right here, you should get some
exposure to what's going on there and even in your practice teaching, why
don't you go to a ghetto school and get some exposure?
01:05:55
[Ronald Sample] I'd like to answer to your question too. I don't know
where your statistics or figures are from, but I've talked with many
teachers here and they have admitted to me that they can get paid more
in suburban schools than they can in the city schools and these are
people who ought to know they were the ones who get [inaudible]. In fact,
one lady told me she wanted to teach in Hopkins because she's gonna get
more money and have better equipment and better facilities and easier
children to teach.
01:06:20
[Inaudible response from the audience]
01:06:29
[Ronald Sample] One teacher that I knew quite well left from the suburbs
and Hopkins and she was maybe nine thousand dollars a year.
01:06:41
[Harold Andrews] There's a difference, yeah, but the top the level isn't as
high as the suburban.
01:06:44
[Miles Stenshoel] One last question, I don't know to whom to turn here is
there one last question? Okay, one last question.
01:06:53
I was just curious. It's been brought up that the welfare system is so
inequitable and so poorly constructed. In what way can we affect this
now? Should we write our congressmen or how can this be?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 28
01:07:12
This is the way it is going to have to be done. As we have tried to point out
and reason why I'm very familiar with this I have just recently had
conferences with the entire staff of the Hennepin County welfare and do
almost to a person we agree about these particular handicaps: Number
one; they are tied by whatever our national policies happen to be in
welfare work. They are just workers, they have to do what they're told to
do so not we do have to work this through our legislation we have to be
aware of where the injustices lie in our welfare system and it has to go
through our legislative processes to get it corrected. These particular
problems [inaudible] is our welfare really helping these people or is it
actually really giving them to a subservient situation out of which they find
almost no means of getting out of it?
01:08:03
[Inaudible] we have a good welfare system. It will help the needy people,
but it will not be a hindrance to them helping themselves when they so
desire to do so and most of them do. I've met very few people on welfare,
and I talked to quite a few, who want to stay there. A man wants to be a
man, a woman wants to be a woman. They don't want to have to go
around feeling they have to live on handouts all their lives, but our welfare
system has put them in this bag and has allowed them no way out.
01:08:33
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:08:48
[Harold Andrews]And young man, if you want to pursue this I want to give
you a little something else to take along. There's an element or segment in
the poverty level that is totally ignored. Welfare is designed now it's two
elements; the family who does not have a head of a household who
cannot survive and the old people, the aged. This is all they support and
as a third segment that only one federal program helps, that's food
stamps and that is where there is a head of the household and does
insufficient income they can't get a thing anywhere except relief and that's
temporary and it's very menial. This should also be included. Food stamps
is different. Some of you could get food stamps because all it's relying
upon is your income by ratio to the number of people in the household and
employed.
01:09:45
You must have a total income and then if it's less than that $35,000 then
you qualify for food stamps, for food stamps you see, but that's the only
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 29
program but I think it should be more flexible for that family, then a father
would have to leave the home too.
00:01:10
Well we come awfully close to the guaranteed income idea without ever
mentioning it, it seems to me. That was the other question we don't have
time for it. I want to say thank you to our visitors this morning. This was I'm
sure pointed very helpful to us even if we strayed occasionally from the
more specific topic. I want to say thank you to this group and I want to
remind you that at 11:15 we the next presentation, "Violence versus
Non-Violence," and that will be a general meeting downstairs again.
Thank you all very much.
01:10:35
[Applause]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 30
Show less
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0011
Description: Ada Deer, The Rev. Harold Andrews... Show more
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0011
Description: Ada Deer, The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines, and
Ronald Sample discuss residential segregation and racism in a panel moderated by Dr.
Myles Stenshoel. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to
issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:55:20
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[The recording cuts in while Myles Stenshoel is speaking] Affairs
Department University of Minnesota. She informs me that she's got to be
at another commitment at 4 o'clock and we're going to give her there for
the first opportunity to say something today I don't know exactly what she
wants to say our general topic is listed as “Our Forgotten Neighbors,” and
has the subtitle “Inadequacy of Public and Community Services in the
ghettos.” Now, this at least is a starting point, and perhaps we can go on
from there and again I'm going to have to say told, said to me that we'll
have to speak rather loudly because there are some noises particularly at
that end of the room. We’ll let Ms. Deer spark at this time. Do you want
this…?
00:00:45
[Ada Deer] This is quite a switch for me, because usually the Indians are
last and so I have a chance to get my words in first at this time. First of all,
I'd like to commend the Augsburg College and all of you who are here,
and who’ve had a part in planning and carrying out this program. I think
this is a very exciting opportunity for you to meet people in the community,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 1
to hear speakers of various backgrounds, and to know firsthand what
some of the problems are. I'm sorry that I'll have to leave, but I hope that I
will stimulate you to think about our forgotten Americans. This is the
phrase that President Johnson used in his State of the Union message
last year, when he talked about us. And I should say it always annoys me,
and pains me to hear this, and I keep thinking that if more of us speak up
and speak out that eventually this will change.
00:01:50
Now, in 10 minutes, I certainly can't talk to you and give you all the
information that you need on American Indians. First of all, because I do
not myself have a global knowledge of Indians. I think that when you do
hear people of minority groups, you should bear in mind what the
background is, what their frame of reference is. Because I certainly cannot
pretend to speak for all American Indians. I speak for myself, out of my
own background and experience and professional training. I myself am a
social worker, I'm interested in community in social action, and this is a
type of involvement in the community that I spend most of my time doing.
Occasionally, I do make speeches but at this point, I should say I'm a little
tired of talking about the problem, and I'm interested in talking to people
who are wanting to get involved and who can help.
00:02:51
Now we should talk, especially in terms of Indians, about the philosophy of
helping. I myself have been here in Minneapolis since 1961. I've worked in
several different agencies as the program director of Waite Neighborhood
House, a three years in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and a year now at the
University of Minnesota. And I have many people calling me, different
times during the day, on all aspects of Indian Affairs. Once, a one young
man called me up and said ‘hello,” he says ‘’I have some clothes for the
Indians and what shall I do with them?’ So I said ‘well, I'm sorry, I'm not in
the clothes business’ and I tried to refer to another place that might be
able to handle this. This is what I call the ‘old clothes approach’ to helping.
You know, clean out your closets, and then you've done your good deed
for the day.
00:03:39
I think that, with Indians, this has been particularly true. We want to help,
and we end up doing for rather than doing with. Now, I know that we've all
heard these phrases over and over, but I'd like to challenge each of you to
think about this. What do we mean when we talk about help? In my
opinion, when we talk about help, we mean helping people help
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 2
themselves. And, all too often, with Indian people this has not occurred. I
meet many well-meaning people sitting across the table from me in
various committees who want to help, but then when you really zero in
and try to find out what they want to do, they don't really want to help at
all, they want to make their own guilt feeling so less and proceed on that
basis.
00:04:29
Now, I would like to outline briefly for you some of the problems as
suggested in the first presidential message on Indians made to Congress
by President Johnson the first week of March. This will give you a basic a
frame of reference from which to discuss. I should say that one of the big
disadvantages is that the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is the
governmental agency in charge of administering programs for Indians, has
no research division, and so almost everything that you hear about Indians
is based on approximations and guesses. And this is very unfortunate
when you are out in the field, trying to develop programs and solutions to
some of the problems.
00:05:11
Everyone wants to know how many Indians are there in this country. Well,
according to that information they're approximately 600,000. This is
approximately the same population that was here at the time that
Columbus quotes ‘discovered’ America. [audience laughs] Then, how
many live on reservations? Approximately 400,000 live on reservations,
200,000 live in urban areas, or outside of the reservation areas. 50,000
Indian families live in unsanitary dilapidated dwellings. The unemployment
rate is nearly 40 percent, and this is more than ten times the national
average. 50% of the Indian school children, double the national average,
drop out before completing high school. Indian literacy rates are among
the lowest in the nation. Thousands of Indians who migrated into the cities
find themselves untrained for jobs and unprepared for urban life. The
average age of death of an American Indian today is 44, and for all other
Americans it is 65. 10 percent of American Indians over age 14 have had
no schooling. Nearly 60 percent have had less than an eighth grade
education, and even those Indians who are attending school are plagued
by language barriers, by isolation and remote areas, by lack of a tradition
of academic achievement.
00:06:38
I'm not going to go into all the points that I have here on my cards, but I
would like to mention a little more about health. The health level of the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 3
American Indian is the lowest of any major population group in the United
States. The incidence of TB1 among Indians and Alaska Natives is five
times the national average. I think you can get the picture in terms of
health, education, and social conditions. On a national average the
Indians are at the bottom, and I should say that this is also true here in
Minnesota. There are approximately 21 to 24,000 Indian people here in
the state of Minnesota. Nobody knows exactly how many there are here in
the Twin Cities, but the estimates are from five to ten thousand. I could go
on talking about the problems of urban living, but I will summarize them by
saying that the Indian people are isolated in the reservation areas, are not
oriented the city life, come here with improper education, inadequate
orientation, and due to the residency barriers, have very difficult time for
the most part.
00:07:59
Now, there are many Indians that make it, but at this point we don't hear
much about them. Our press continues to feature the negative sides, and
very often does not emphasize the positive contributions. And because
Indian people are a small population group, and are, at this point,
relatively unorganized--we don't have an NAACP, we don't have an Urban
League, we don't have any of the other organizations--you don't hear
much from the Indian population. Now, I've outlined the social problems on
a national level, and, to summarize, we have some of the same problems
on the state level and in the city level, and what is being done about it?
00:08:39
We have a multitude of agencies who are now beginning to address
themselves to some aspects of the problems. I have many requests for
in-service training sessions from the teachers, social workers, and others.
We're beginning to organize Committees of Indian people concerned with
education and other matters. But this is a long haul, and much will have to
be done by everyone concerned. Now, where is this in terms of you? First
of all, attitudes. I see a sign-up there in the dormitory which says ‘white
racism must go.’ And I'd like to echo this: the attitudes that minority people
are confronted with are very difficult and they're very disheartening. This is
also particularly true of American Indians. Oftentimes, people look at me,
and others like me, and say ‘you're not an Indian.’ And, by this, they mean
I'm not weak, dependent, poor, inarticulate, backward, and out of it. If you
stand up and speak, speak out, and are a little aggressive--you know, if
1
Tuberculosis.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 4
you're, too quiet you're too passive. You know if you're too aggressive,
you know, this isn't acceptable either.
00:09:43
And so, this is a very difficult situation for many of the minority people
ought to be in. So, the first point here is for you yourselves to become
better informed, more knowledgeable, and also to look at your own
attitudes, the attitudes of your family, the attitudes in your neighborhood.
Now, I think I've used up more than my 10 minutes, I've tried to outline
some of the problems and I hope that this will stimulate you to further
discussion. Thank you.
00:10:12
[Myles Stenshoel] Thank you, Miss Deer. The two gentlemen here to my
left are, my far left: Mister, the Reverend, Mr, how’s that? The Reverend
Mr. Harold Andrews, who holds a great many positions, more than I could
suggest, he's consultant to the Minneapolis school system, he is an
assistant pastor at Sabbatini Church, he is involved in the DECOY
organization, and many others. The gentleman to my immediate left is a
student who will be graduating this year from Central High School, Mr.
Reginald Berry, who has has been quite active in the DECOY
organization, and perhaps would like to tell you something about that.
00:11:04
This morning, at our session, we began, not with any particular address,
and we didn't really have an Indian representative--except ¼? Mr.
Andrews also claim some Indian blood, which made him a spokesman to
some degree, also for the Indian communities this morning. But we are
asking ourselves here about the particular problems that exist in our
ghettos with respect to social services and community services. And I
think it is clear--I don't think we have to be told an awful lot about the fact
that there are deficiencies about the fact that schools are often not as
adequate in these communities as they are elsewhere. That playgrounds
are less adequate, that swimming pools are probably few and far between,
and if they are available, not in good condition.
00:12:06
One of the things that that also comes up is the thing that was
emphasized by our speaker just before this discussion. Namely, the
problem of the--of social service, particularly aid to dependent children, or
aid to families with dependent children. Where we tend to break up the
community, rather than to then to strengthen the family. We break up the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 5
family rather than strengthen it. Now I think we have some kind of an idea
here of some of the problems.
00:12:39
I'm going to ask each of these gentlemen to say whatever he wants to say
this afternoon, after which I think will open it up to a rather general
discussion, and perhaps ask ourselves some more questions about what
we can do, and more particularly that we in the Augsburg community
should be concerned with. Do you want to--
00:13:01
[Reginald Berry] Well, considering the fact that Ms. Deer is in a hurry, I
would prefer that we answered--ask some questions, if they have
questions, in regards to what she has already said, with reference to the
Indians, and the Indian Affairs, and after which then we could--
00:13:21
[Myles Stenshoel] All right that would probably be a little bit better, we'll
give her a chance then [inaudible]
00:13:29
[Audience member] They’ve got a program on CBS that [inaudible] the
forgotten American, and the point they made right at the end that’s the
basic dilemma about--that the Indians that go off of the reservation often
come back. And you have a basic dilemma in that the Indian can’t find
work on the reservation and they’re too poorly oriented to go off of the
reservation. I just wonder about your personal opinion, where you think it’s
going to end up. Is it going to be better to try and get them off, or are you
going to try and bring employment to the reservation?
00:13:59
[Ada Deer] Well I'd say it's both. It's not an either/or proposition. I think
there should be adequate minimum standards of living in all areas of our
country, for all of our people. And, for too long, in the rural areas,
especially among Indian people, among the Negro people in the Delta
country, they've been denied basic services. This of course is a function of
the appropriations and the way the services are delivered by the various
agencies. Now, in terms of Indians, I would say, due to the isolation and
the real domination by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, many Indian people
don't really have adequate choices. They don't understand; if they don't go
to school at 16, there'll be dropouts and then be condemned to a very poor
existence.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 6
00:14:50
So, what I would like to see would be: adequate housing, adequate
schools in these areas, and then, if a person wants to leave the
reservation, they'll be adequately equipped. Now, at this point, the budget
of the Bureau of Indian Affairs is 250 million dollars. That's a lot of money.
17,000 employees for approximately 400,000 people losing out or near
reservations. Then, of course, they'll be coming to the cities, and there's a
big dilemma here because Congress has authorized money for
expenditures on the reservations, but has not really given authority to
expend for services in the cities.
00:15:25
And so, when the Indian people come into the cities, they're needing all
kinds of services. Many of the agencies say ‘Indians? Oh, well they're
taken care of by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.’ And so, here the person is
caught in this dilemma. And this is where we need to change, these
policies changed, and we need additional money for some of the
programs.
00:15:46
[Myles Stenshoel] I'd like to raise a question at this point, Ms. Deer: a few
years ago, I was sitting with the Advisory Committee from South Dakota to
the Civil Rights Commission, and we ran into some really difficult
problems out there. We were trying to come to grips with this with some of
the things that, some of the problems of the Indians in South Dakota. We
made one--discovered one thing, and that was that there were some
communities, Rapid City was the most obvious example of this. When an
Indian family, or another poor family, but it was primarily the Indian
families, when they would move to Rapid City, they would be served by
the local authorities with what was called a certificate of non-residency
which said, in effect, that the social services that we provide for people
here, are not available for you, because you are not a resident, and if you
stay here for years you're not going to become a resident for purposes of
receiving these Social Services. Is, do we have any, any such problem
say, in the state of Minnesota that you're aware of?
00:16:59
[Ada Deer] I think it would be better for you to talk to someone that was
actually involved in the welfare department. I know that there are
subtleties that exist. For example, there's a certain allowance in the
budget for lights. Some families don't have lights, then they don't get an
allowance for lights. And, so actually, in many ways there is some--well,
additional lack of money. And there is, I guess you could say actually
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 7
some types of discrimination that exists in the way the budgets are
administered. But these are very subtle things, and you have to be kind of
a detective to try to track them down. And I am not an expert in public
assistance, so I think to adequately cover this particular aspect, you really
should have someone here for public assistance.
00:17:52
[Myles Stenshoel] Well, I thought it was a...do you know of any--
00:17:54
[Harold Andrews] It’s available. There's no discrepancy at all in, you know,
as far as the Indian is concerned. You say public assistance, the AFDC
[inaudible] if they’re living in the city, they can receive it.
00:18:08
[Ada Deer] I was talking about up into some of the northern areas where
they get less money.
00:18:14
[Myles Stenshoel] Are there other questions from Ms. Deer, yes?
00:18:17
[Audience Member] The gentleman from DECOY, I think, some of the
ways they’re doing, educating the Black person to his African culture.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Are the, does the Indian, American Indian, on his
culture, does he want a kind of modern Indian image, or something, or
does he want--how do you feel about culture and the Indian, the American
Indian? Do you think they should [inaudible] do you want to relish in that,
or do you want to…?
00:19:04
[Ada Deer] I think this is a very interesting question. It gets into this whole
area of identification. And a person is designated an ‘Indian’ by the Bureau
of Indian Affairs for services if they have one fourth degree Indian blood.
Now, because a person has one fourth degree Indian blood does not
necessarily mean they're Indians. In the old days, traders got on, and
various other people got on them, so that's part of this whole definition.
Now that's a legal definition of Indian. A social definition that I find helpful
is a person is an Indian who identifies himself as an Indian and who is
identified by the community as an Indian. Now some of the Indian
communities in this country have still a great deal left of culture.
00:19:49
By this, I mean the total way of life. They speak the language, for example
the Indians in the southwest, they speak the language, you still carry on
some of the ancient religious practices, their family and kinship systems
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 8
are still in operation, and so on. Various other groups, this is not true, and
there's still a lot of interaction/interchange going on. I think lots of people
think that you know we have ‘pure’ Indian culture here, and then we have
the non-indian culture, and this is not the way it is. Here, in this area,
we've had traders and others making contact for 300 years, so we have
people who are driving cars on television, and and all these things and this
is one of the big problems.
00:20:37
Trying to help people define who they are. And, I should say, that in this
society if you're a minority person nobody lets you forget it at all. And I
think that one of the things that all of us have to do is remember that we're
human beings, together. And that we do have some similarities and that
we do have some differences. Now, with Indians much of the culture and
the history has has consciously been destroyed. There is no teaching of
Indian history in the schools, or Indian culture, and as I mentioned earlier,
at this point we don't have a strong pan-Indian movement in the country,
providing the type of leadership that SLIC, 2 and SNCC,3 and the NAACP,
in all this the host of organizations among the black community is doing.
So, it's kind of a long answer to your question but these are some of the
points involved.
00:21:25
[Reginald Berry] Another thing: you know, I think that sort of acts as a
catalytic agent to this stereotype image of the Indian, even more so than a
Black man, is that there are many people who definitely are ignorant to the
contributions of the Indian up to our modern-day society. I don't mean
historically in this country, I mean, since they have become Americanized,
or westernized to the white man's ways. And I think this goes more into
your question, as to whether or not the Indian, and teaching minority
history, are we going to consider also the contributions of the Indian, or
are there any such contributions which I know I heard it, but this is more of
a nature of interest, I would assume, as to education at the Indian, and of
everybody else in the society. So, if you could even relate, now, to some
such contributions you see, I think it would more or less...
00:22:38
[Ada Deer] Well, there are many Indian individuals that are making
contributions right now. For example, we have Ms. LaDonna Harris, who is
a Comanche Indian. She is the wife of Senator Fred Harris from
2
3
Possibly intended to mean SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
The Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 9
Oklahoma. She has been appointed chairman of the Woman's Advisory
Committee to the OEO.4 She was the first congressional wife ever to
testify before Congress on behalf of legislation. She testified recently on
behalf of the OEO legislation. We have Mr. Robert L. Bennett, who's a
commissioner of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. We have, I'm sure you've
heard of congressman Ben Rifle from South Dakota, who not only works
for Indians, but for all people of the state. And, at this particular point, I
don't have time to go into all the other ones, but yes there are
contributions. And one of the sad points here is that, in Minnesota, we’re
in Indian country. There--we look on the map, we can see many towns
that have been named after Indian names. And if you study history from
an objective point of view, you could really dig into this and see.
00:23:43
Oh, and I want to really relate to your question about being a ‘new Indian,’
there's a book out called the ‘New Indian.’ And, I think it's rather cool book
myself, but, anyway, this is I think the challenge to to all of us. Many
people, as I mentioned earlier, have a stereotyped idea of what it means
to be an Indian. You know, you have to act a certain way. And we are in a
democratic society, and I think that the choice should be open through
each of us as individuals--what type of person we want to be. And, I feel
that there are Indians in this country who speak the language and who
carry on some of their practices, but at the same time, can have an
adequate standard of living. This is particularly true among some of the
Indians in the southwest, that live in Albuquerque and some of these other
places they take part in their tribal affairs, but still they come back.
00:24:33
Each person has to make up their mind as to what they'd like to do. Now
again, I'm expressing my opinion in my frame of reference we should
really hear other Indians. You should hear people from the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, we should hear tribal leaders, and then you'd get a full
scope of picture.
00:24:54
[Myles Stenshoel] All right, a question over here yes.
00:24:56
[Audience Member] Yes, do you believe the Bureau of Indian Affairs itself
needs a major revamp.
4
Office of Economic Opportunity.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 10
00:25:05
[Ada Deer] Yes. [Stenshoel laughs] I worked in the Bureau for three years,
so I know.
00:25:08
[Myles Stenshoel] I think it's interesting that--I was living in South Dakota
and I was in Ben Rifles district, and it seemed to me that we in South
Dakota somehow felt that we had proved that we were doing right by the
Indian by electing Ben to Congress, and that somehow it was a sort of
therapeutic, cathartic--
00:25:28
[Ada Deer] --you did your duty, you solved the problem.
00:25:29
We did our duty, our problem was solved. It's very easy to get this feeling.
Here's a here's a man who's of some accomplishment, who’s a good
Episcopalian, and half-German--
00:25:43
[Ada Deer] --Meets the right standards.
00:25:43
Meets all the good standards and Ben Rifle was our Indian.
00:25:46
[Ada Deer] That's right.
00:25:47
[Myle Stenshoel] Another question here I saw, yes.
00:25:50
[Audience Member] I was wondering what organization were [inaudible] in
the city [inaudible].
00:25:58
There are a number of organizations. There's the Department of Indian
work of the Minnesota Council of Churches. There are several small
Indian organizations that are social and cultural in nature. We have a
couple sewing groups, and we have the Upper Midwest Center, we have
the Four Winds, we have a teenage group, and so on. But at this particular
point, we don't have one particular agency, such as an Indian Center, that
is fully staffed and fully financed it could really meet some of the basic
needs of the Indian people. You know, such as the Urban League does for
some of the other minorities.
00:26:33
I also wanted to say, as long as I have the floor. As far as I'm concerned, I
feel that, with the small minority population that we have in this area,
which is like, about I don’t know, 3 or 4 percent, it's just inexcusable that
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 11
there should be the extent of problems that we have here in terms of
housing, education, and discrimination. And I feel that, if we are not able
to do something about this here and now, with this small--here with this
population, in this urban area, that is going to be--you know, if we can't do
it here, what--where, who is going to do it? And this is why we need, you
know, your help. I'm sure my colleagues would have something additional
to say.
00:27:18
[Myles Stenshoel] Are you rested up sufficiently now, so we can get Ms.
Deer a break and can let you take over?
00:27:22
[Unidentified panelist] Yeah.
00:27:26
[Myles Stenshoel] All right, yeah.
00:27:32
[Reginald Berry] I am NOT a Negro. I wish not to be addressed as a
Negro. Let me shock you: I am a Black man, a proud Black man. I am an
Afro-American. I belong to an organization called DECOY: Determined
Ebony Council of Youth. ‘Determined,’ I think we all know what determined
means. ‘Ebony’ means we are Black, no white belong to our group. When
I say ‘Council,’ right, I belong to the council, but we have like a congress.
At least 500 to 700 students in the south side of Minneapolis, some north,
that belong to DECOY. ‘Youth,’ I say we are youth, we are young adults.
That's because we prove that we can think for ourselves. We feel we need
no person 60 years old, or 50 years, old to tell us what we need at our
age. We can think for ourselves.
00:28:22
I'm in the 12th grade. We feel that one of the major concerns of the
community is Black power. I've realized some of you tremble to the word
‘Black,’ since we, the community, gives the name ‘black’ as being bad,
and ‘white’ is being good. Black power is political, economic, social, and
psychological advancement for Black people in America. I'll talk about the
political and economic part, because it has it all has to relate to the
community, but this--especially politically, black people in their community
should control politicians in the community. In the politics. Economically,
we could control all the businesses in the community. We--they--Indians
were put on a reservation, we were put in a so called ghetto, which is the
same thing as so-called reservation. Put away from the rest, what made
the ghetto was an economic, something like a cycle
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 12
00:29:25
When I say ‘control the economics of community,’ I mean control the
businesses. It's like when you take your money, which you earn a little bit
from the white man ,and you go spending in his store. The white man is
not gonna live in that tore up neighborhood, so what does he do? He goes
out from his suburban, not to say suburban, in his suburban neighborhood
and spends it there. Therefore, the suburban neighborhood gets richer
and richer, and that so-called ghetto gets poorer and poorer. See, when
we talk about so-called ghetto, we got to get an understanding between all
of us in here, what a ghetto is. The dictionary says it’s a group of ethnic
people in a certain area.
00:30:02
Therefore, all over the United States, we have Polish ghettos, Italian
ghettos, Swedish ghettos, but you give us his name ghetto. Anytime you
said ‘ghetto’ at school, everybody knows what they're talking about.
They're talking about Black people. I am NOT a minority. I am a majority.
When you start calling yourself a minority, you can go so far. Minority
tends to think minority, think small. I'm not small. I said before, anything
that happens in this community at Augsburg College should have--affects
the city. Anything that affects the city affects the state. Anything that
affects the state affects the country. Anything that affects the country
affects the world.
00:30:41
Therefore, there are more Black people in the world than there are white.
Communication is too great to be just talking about a certain district, a
certain area. Because anything we do in Minneapolis well have--if we set
good examples in Minneapolis, which we are starting to do, then that's
gonna do good for the whole country. I can say I am not a minority but I
am the majority. One of the things that white people can do, and they're
the communities--I live on the south side of Minneapolis. The south side of
Minneapolis is no ghetto, so-called ghetto. Black people are spread out all
over the south side of Minneapolis. White people, after the death of Martin
Luther King, and after the so called grants which we call economic
revolutions, political and economic revolutions--
00:31:30
--first thing white people do they say ‘what can we do for you?’ That's not
the problem. It’s what can you do for yourself. If white people weren't
racists in the first place, there wouldn't be no problem. So what you do?
You don't come over and join our organizations, but you get your own
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 13
selves together. That's where the problem is. You get in your own social
gatherings and start figuring out why does the black man have a tail, it's
something you put on us. You get--like I say, Black people have the
biggest problem with getting themselves together. White people get
yourself together. Then, when white people get yourselves together, then
you can truly integrate. When one’s stronger than the other, like the
American system is based on, the one on the top is always going to be
exploiting the one on the bottom.
00:32:10
But it shouldn't be because the person is black, or a person is yellow. It
shouldn't be because he has a different culture than yours. One of the
biggest hangups that America has, if a person isn’t, culture isn't like to
theirs, they say he's ‘culturally deprived.’ They say the Black man in the
ghetto is culturally deprived. He is not. He has a culture of his own. He has
a heritage of his own. We came from Africa. One of the things you could
do to help communicate better with Black people all over the city, all over
the country, is learning the history of Black people. Learning the history of
so-called minority groups. There--then you can coincide with them, you
can get along with them, you can know something about them. Now, you
can't respect somebody who you don't know nothing about. To get to the
problem, you can't start at the top and cut it off. It's like, it's like a tree. To
kill a tree, you don't get at the top cutting them off. You get at the root of
the problem.
00:33:11
So what I'm saying is: before you can get through with the problem, you
have to know what started the problem. You gotta know back during
slave--you gotta know all the contributions that black people have made in
America. I'm not all, but there's quite a few. It's not hard to look up. I like to
say that Patrick Henry said ‘liberty or death.’ When a Black man in the
so-called ghetto says ‘liberty or death,’ he's a militant. That's another word
we get hung up on, ‘militant.’ In means ‘able,’ by a dictionary definition
‘able and willing to fight.’ President Johnson is militant, since he is sending
us to Vietnam. So what we do--Black people and white people, like, we
worry about getting our own selves together. White people get Black
people together--white people together, and Black people’ll get Black
together, like we've been doing.
00:34:00
[Reginald Berry] Well, that’s about it [laughs].
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:34:04
[Myles Stenshoel] Okay. Mr. Andrews?
00:34:06
[Harold Andrews] Well, I'm a lot like Ms. Deer. I don't know how many of
you were here this morning. I don't care to be repetitious. I didn't come out
here to be eloquent either. I speak, I don’t know how many times today, I
have to speak again tonight. There aren’t enough hours in the day for me
[a panelist coughs] he doesn’t know all of them himself. I’ve got to fill
[inaudible] if not, get out of the way and let somebody else do it. The
reason I'm doing so much is because I found that there's so many good
meeting people who says ‘let me help.’ When I go home I can't sleep at
night, wondering if they will. And when I see them on the next day, I say
‘did you take care of that?’ ‘No, I'm doing it right now.’ And I can't wait like
that. Consequently, I'm like one of these guys in a small town where he
pulls you over for speeding and takes you to court, he's a judge, and then
he takes the fine, and he gives you a haircut--he's the barber.
00:35:16
I’m doing so many things. But until enough people stop talking, start doing
things, I'd rather rust out--I'd rather wear out, that is, then rust out because
this is a very serious matter to me, and one to which I have dedicated
myself. I'm so dedicated because I have anxieties. I have fears. I've been
where you can never go, I've heard what you can never hear, and I know
what can happen if we don't do it now. And I didn't need the Kerner Report
to tell me that, matter of fact, the Kerner report is only a repetition of what
was proposed in 1919 in Chicago, Illinois. Same report. Matter of fact, it
looks like they just quoted some of it. And this is the thing that--I-I couldn't
say that, perhaps you hear the youth haven’t been aware of, but I'm sure
the adults have. This is why I have lost a lot of faith in the preceding
generation.
00:36:22
What I think I would prefer to do now is to give you a little background on
just one organization and what we're doing. And maybe then from this,
you could get some ideas of what you can do. DECOY and the United
Southside. My capacity at the time of this, of my getting involved in
this--previously I should say, to get involved--was as a social worker at
Central High School, at which time I was working on a one-to-one basis
with the students, and then something happened. The kids, after getting a
little educated about Blackness from The Way on the north side, decided
‘well, why don't we, you know, ahve one on the south side?’ This is where
it’s at!
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 15
00:37:13
So, they got together and said ‘we're gonna [have] a South Side Way. And
man, when they said that, their parents and the whole community were
aroused. And they said ‘well, wait a minute, let's have some sort of
confrontation before you do this, now. Let's have a meeting. Let's meet
and discuss this.’ And that meeting was packed. And, as I said this
morning, we are just the people who respond to violence. And this is why
they packed the house. And the minister himself got up and said ‘if I could
get half as many people here on Sunday, [Stenshoel laughs] I’d have to
call this a church.’ But instead, it's a community house, because that's
when everybody comes, when there's something, you know, controversial.
And this seemed to be quite controversial.
00:38:01
And I can remember Syl Davis himself5 standing there and saying ‘you are
here because you're uncomfortable. Because the word ‘Way’ was
mentioned. And The Way moves people.’ And, boy I couldn't deny that!
Because they were there for that purpose. And so, after a lot of dialogue,
a lot of eloquence, a lot of, you know, showing off who knows what about
what, nothing was being done. And I stood. And I asked--I faced the youth
who were organized. They were attacking the adults and the adults were
fighting back, but nothing happened and I said ‘Now, what do you want?’
And they specified some of the things they wanted. And I turned around
and looked the adults and I said ‘would you deny your own child anything
that they just asked for?’ They said ‘no!’ ‘So, let's do something!’
00:38:52
Then, as it was--and this is since quite a picture, I even see the picture
now. It was like this table. I don't even like to talk behind a table, [knocking
his hand on the table] It's a psychological disadvantage to talk behind a
table. I face one of the kids, said ‘stand up, son.’ He stood up. ‘Which
direction is right?’ He pointed to my left. I said ‘no. This is right.’
[presumably Andrews points to his right for the audience] And I looked at
the people, I said ‘now, who's right?’ They said ‘you both are.’ I said,
‘yeah, but we're pointing in different directions!’ I said ‘Let's get around on
the same side of the table.’ And what I was really trying to do was, get the
philosophy behind it, is that as I--in our communities, institutions, and what
have you it seems that we all face opposite sides of table.
5
Davis was the first director of The Way in North Minneapolis.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:39:34
We're both right, and the community suffers, because it's always in the
center. As far as the schools in the community are concerned, the school
is looking out their window, at the family, the residences, and saying ‘that's
the community.’ And they're looking out their window at the school and
saying ‘that’s the community.’ Now it's the issue of Black and white. We're
looking out our window at you and saying ‘that's the problem.’ And you're
looking out yours, at us, when you look at you see riots and things and say
‘that's the problem.‘
00:40:07
And we both think we're right. We, when we really have to be able to come
around to the same side of the table and look at it together through the
same window, where we would be very surprised to discover that we're
both in the same community. We're both in the situation together, and it is
not a Black problem, it’s not a white problem, it is an American problem!
And when we become, come to the pond to realize this, then perhaps
there can be some pursuance. You see, as he was talking about the
effects going from state, to a national, and international level, as other
countries look at us, they look objectively. They look at America.
Particularly those who are using propaganda as a means of exploiting
other countries and influencing others to become--
00:40:56
--like communism socialism. It's easier now! We're the most--we have lost
the Cold War. And these are such things that have caused us to lose it:
when we say we are in a non-aggressive country, nation, we love the
world. And we fool enough to think that with money we can compromise.
We'll go over--and then this came straight from the horse's mouth. I talked
to a congressman he said, ‘sure we send many, many countries are not
really allies of ours. We give them money, and we'll give them this money,
what do I want in return? Well when we want to vote on an issue at the
UN, we expect them to vote.’
00:41:34
Now, if I did that right now, if I was running for office, and I gave you
money, and said ‘vote for me what would you call me?’ Particularly if I
were Black? I'd be a Black one-of-those wouldn’t I? [audience laughs] All
right! Let's stop being hypocrites! Let's look at ourselves as a family. We
are, whether we like it or not. I know, ah [he chuckles] I had a brother, we
fought every day, we--sometime nothing to fight about, we’d look at each
other and say ‘well, we ain’t had our fight today.’ [he slaps his hands]
There we go. My brother. As much as a lot of Black people hate to say so,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 17
we're still brothers, they’ll say ‘now I didn't say we’re your distant cousins.’
They don't want to say brothers. [audience laughs] They say we’re
brothers.
00:42:18
But we must--its virtues, love, respect, integrity, whatever you call them.
You don't demand them. You earn them. No man can make any other
man, or any individual, love him, but he can earn it. But that doesn't go
one way. It goes two ways, and it comes out of sincerity. As they say in a
church, ‘that which comes from the heart, reaches a heart.” And I hope it
does. This is the thing I'm talking about. From this point, I got with the kids.
They organized, and they said ‘we're gonna have a Southside Way.’ Then,
they decide ‘well, there’s so much controversy, and we want them to know
that we have the strength among ourselves. We don't need to lean on
anybody. We're not gonna be affiliated with anybody. We're gonna change
our name. We’ll change our name to DECOY.’
00:43:03
Well, I never questioned them about that word, and it represents
‘Determined Ebony Council of Youth,’ but you know what a decoy is?
Those of who have been duck hunting. It's a false--well you know it's the
little duck that you buy at the store, and you put him out there to draw the
others, and when he draws them on then, boom! This is not the
connotation though. [audience laughs] But, still! It is in a way, even if they
were not aware of it. Right now we've got this, the South Side Way. We
had it before even The Way moved there, because the concept is in these
kids. The concept is in me. I believe it. But a concept is like..anything, this
ashtray6 was designed for one purpose: putting butts in, and putting out
ashes, and putting out cigarettes. I can take this and make a weapon in
probably, very-very, definitely to kill somebody with it.
00:43:55
And anything else, a pen, anything. It's how you use it. Even in a concept.
This is what has created, I believe, the reluctance, not only in white
people, but in Blacks who fear even the word ‘Black power.’ You hear
‘Black,’ and you hear ‘power,’ you eradicate power, you say ‘supremacy.’ I
heard a man speaking one time. A Black man. He said, we don't want
‘Black power.’ I said ‘man, how do you know you don’t want something
you never had before?’ There’s never been any Black power in this
country. It may be better than white power, but no one has ever said--no
6
Smoking was common in indoor spaces at the time, including the College Center (now Christensen
Center).
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 18
one has ever inferred, even that by having Black power that we would just
totally eradicate white power. What they're really saying is equality! And so
much so, that the National Conference on Black Power, about two weeks
ago in Washington DC, set out, and we decided we're gonna even change
the word to ‘equality.’
00:44:53
There’ll be fighting just like DECOY, you know. the same concept, but just
changing words. It's terrible how words affect people. The organization
was founded, and then we had to get adults to work. Out of sixty teachers
at that particular high school, I got forty seven to volunteer right on the
spot [snaps his fingers]. Every social agency, every institution on the south
side, we got them all together in one organization: us. The United
Southside. It was from there that we began to move, and this is how
DECOY was able to effectively get the things on the school board like the
20th for Malcolm X Day, for parental release. Like a school holiday for Dr.
Martin Luther King. Like just going to school to history books, throwing
them out.
00:45:41
We don't need black history, we don't need minority history, we need to
tell it like it is. And this is what we're gonna do: we're gonna build that
book up properly, and if we have to go back to the publisher--if we don't
buy it, he don’t print when he's got to sell. We're not gonna buy it. Then,
as a sensitivity training, we need people staffed. You want to know what
can be done? Staffed, and trained properly, to the sensitivity of the
problem of the racial issues. Not only the issues, but to the history. To be
informed. Now we only have a few resource places where we can get
such a thing. We sent three teachers from this area to Fisk University this
summer to be trained at where they have the most extensive resources in
Black history.
00:46:22
Right here in the city, DECOY’s getting another thing now. A library
equivalent two theirs, right here in our own city. A nice conference room
for U.S. to meet in. These are the things of the nature, to bill
constructively, and this can be done by Black and white, because United
Southside, by no means, is Black. We've got people like Nat Ober,
Superintendent of Secondary Schools, [inaudible] DeSantis, [inaudible],
Alderman. I could name a lot of people who are white, who sit down
together. They don't tell us what we should do. We run our show, this is
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 19
our program, we're running it, but they're definitely there to give whatever
aid they can. And this is what I feel we can do.
00:47:08
You've heard over and over again to go home and do your white
neighborhoods and educate yourselves. This is vitally important, but I by
no means am saying that you--that that is the end of it. But we must work
together. We must realize that that wheel that turned, and then built this
nation to be the nation that it is, had both black and white shoulders
pushing it. And if these two shoulders refuse to push, then the world can
no longer turn. The injustice of it is that the black shoulder was doing the
pushing, and the white shoulder was steering. But now we must push
together, because the wheel is too great for either one, a black or white
shoulder, to push alone.
00:47:49
[Myles Stenshoel] Okay, thank you very much. Now, the format this
afternoon varied rather considerably from that which went on this morning.
We've only got a few minutes left let's see if there aren't any responses or
questions that we shouldn't have here to either of these gentlemen. Yes.
00:48:03
[Audience member] Well, I’ve heard a lot of conflicting opinions about just
what role of the ghetto should be in society, now and in the future. And I
was wondering what both of your opinions might be about that.
00:48:16
[Reginald Berry] Why should there be a ghetto?
00:48:20
[Audience member] That's what I say, too, but I’ve heard people say that
there should be a ghetto. Negro people.
00:48:25
[Reginald Berry] One of the problems is: when Black people go to buy a
house in the white neighborhood, they’ve usually had to pay two times as
much as the house is worth to live out there. Over--I know a man who
came here from Mississ--no, Arkansas excuse me--he went to buy a
house in Minneapolis. Now, you know they got that open housing bill, they
always got bills, and human rights, and civil rights to make people human
and citizens. Make Black people human citizens.
00:48:48
When black people are on the docks, lowering the boats, when these
immigrants, white immigrants were coming here. But yet still they got
makes it--make them--special laws to make them citizens. One of the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 20
things he did, he went up by a house. He had here, he didn't have--you
know, when he came here, he didn't have no car. He went over there on
Hiawatha Avenue. Firs,t he called up before he went there. They said, ‘yes
we have a house for sale.’ He went over there, he walked over there, what
happens? Soon as he gets there, I believe his Undertaker7 said, ‘oh wait a
minute, I have to call.’ he calls the owner, told her owner, he must have
told the owner he was Black.
00:49:23
Soon as he came back, he told the man the house was sold. So, naturally,
Black people are going to be put in the ghetto. Another instance a woman
down the block was gonna buy a house on 28th and Park Avenue. That's
right by my house. They had a for sale sign in the window. She went there
and they took it down and said it was sold. A week later, that for sale sign
was up. That's what's gonna make a ghetto. White people seem to want
Black people to be in a certain area. That's just like when black people
saying ten--not even ten--get behind closed doors. White person got to
know what's behind them doors.
00:47
[Harold Andrews] Well, another thing too, and we went over this this
morning.
00:50:02
[Myles Stenshoel] Different group.
00:50:02
[Harold Andrews] Oh. Well, in defining the word ghetto, it’s merely defined
as “any ethnic group in one geographical location.” So, by such a
definition, St. Louis Park is a ghetto. You see? Now, if this is the type of
ghetto you are talking about, there's no problem to a ghetto. You see, I
don't even want to live in St. Louis Park. I'm perfectly satisfied when I'm
living all by--maybe when I married, and I got a family, I'd want a home,
but I dig my apartment, you understand. But, on the other hand, I want my
ghetto to be as well off as St. Louis Park’s ghetto, you see what I'm talking
about [inaudible] equality?
00:50:45
This is that word, integration. See how you’re defining it in two different
ways. Not individually, but I have listened, and most white guys I talk to
you. And he says ‘say, man what do you think about integration?’ I know
what his next question is, but I usually politely wait to hear. And you know
what it wind up being? The Black man and the white woman. And this is
7
Berry possibly means a realtor.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 21
his fear of integration. This is the main thing that makes the white man
afraid to integrate. He doesn't want the Black man and white woman to get
together. Now that isn't how the Black man interprets--it’s not me. That
ain’t the way I interpret integration.
00:51:27
It's gotta--I have more values. I have more more things that I'm
considering in integration. What I'm saying when I say ‘integrate:’ number
one, in regards to where I live, whether I am satisfied in the southside of
Minneapolis or anywhere else, that I have the right to that pursuit of
happiness. To go there and live there. This is integration. Or if I so desire,
and I am financially well-off, I can go out there and join that country club.
That’s integration. And, you know, when I go I might take off--when I go on
my day I might take all my Black brothers and sisters with me, see. But
still will have that privilege. This is what I mean by integration and not--and
this is another thing, it must be more than token integration, as he was
saying in Dakota they had ‘their Indian.’
00:52:06
And the first thing that struck my mind was token integration. In my
investigation of this high school over here, when I walked in a principal
had three students, then ‘I want you to talk with these, Mr. Andrews.’ They
were Black. Now they can tell you like, just what's going on. Well, I looked
at that one, check the guy’s IQs [inaudible] you've got one of these big
IQs, his brother’s set a record over there that nobody can match, you
might have heard about his brother, who Mr. [inaudible] his brother over
on University, and he’s tremendous, you know. When he graduates from
high school, he was equivalent to, what was it there, Reggie, on his--not
IBM but, computers, the guy's a mathematical genius.
00:52:48
Now if you’re Black, and you're coming out of school and you’re not like
that, no token. And then, I've been here I've been in just a year, and since
I've been here I can, oh I have so many tremendous privileges. I had a
problem one time, financial, I walked up to a gentleman, a white man, say
‘man, I got a problem. I need $400 right [inaudible]’ ‘Sure, Harold.’ Wrote
me a check, beautiful, for Harold Andrews. But until a Black boy, whether
his name Harold Andrews, Joe Blow, anybody, can get the same type of
treatment, we have no equality.
00:53:22
You talk about integration and the ghetto is the same way. Until anybody
can walk out there, and get a house, you see, in that ghetto or any other
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 22
ghetto, then it’s so. And then as--it’s definitely it's nothing wrong with
ethnic groups being clannish, they always have been. Except the Black
man. You see, when you get the Polish American Society and I've seen
them, all--Italian American, Spanish American, they go down and have a
good time, they do the Polka. When we get together, here comes the
press. ‘What's going on here?’ ‘What are you doing?’ ‘A bunch of Black
people are together. They’re going to riot.’ We can, right now, if everybody
Black will get together, and we say ‘it’s nice today, let's walk.’ If we walk
down the street, I guarantee you either a State Trooper or other local
police will be there, and cruise around trying to see what's happened. You
can turn around do the same thing, and not a thing would be said.
Equality? No. Integration? No. You see what I'm saying, in answer to your
question.
00:54:18
[Myles Stenshoel] Our thanks to Mister Andrews and to Mr. Barry. We’re
grateful these two gentlemen were with us twice today. That's--I know
that's over and above the call of duty. We're grateful to all of the resource
persons today and of course to Ms. Deer who had to leave for that other
appointment. I have been asked to make another announcement: it has to
do with Dudley Riggs’ Brave New Workshop that will be a half-hour,
especially written drama for our “One Day in May,” and it's going to be at
4:30 in Melby Hall and there is no charge, which is certainly an
extraordinarily good bit of news. So, at 4:30, you are all invited to be there
then the evening session with Milt Williams8 will be held in the College
Center lobby at 6:30. Again, our thanks to you and our thanks for panel
members
00:55:18
[Applause]
8
The former name of Mahmoud El-Kati.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 23
Show less
Transcript of “Green Power: Economic Crisis in the Ghettos”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0342
Description: Evan Anderson and Vern Bloom, of the Office of Economic Opportunity;
Gleason Glover, of the Minneapolis Urban League; Cli... Show more
Transcript of “Green Power: Economic Crisis in the Ghettos”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0342
Description: Evan Anderson and Vern Bloom, of the Office of Economic Opportunity;
Gleason Glover, of the Minneapolis Urban League; Clifford Johnson of the Twin Cities
Opportunities Industrialization Center; and Harry Davis discuss economic
disenfranchisement and racism in a panel moderated by Dr. Norma Noonan. The panel was
part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as "One
Day in May," 1968 May 15. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to
issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:05:47
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[The recording cuts in following introductions]
00:00:00
[Harry Davis]--the use and the force of green power. You will not be
basically equal. So what must be done in the Black Power movement is to
get into the mainstream of green power, to be able to exercise and to
appreciate the loans and the banks and the investments, to know about
the stock markets, to know how to put the squeeze on various political
figures when they are out of line, and you can do this of course with green
power. It must basically have support from people in the community and
people in business and industry. The church itself depends on green
power. As you know, the church is the largest holder, the second largest
holder, of green power. The United States government is the first, but the
church is second, so whatever point of life that we enjoy, or we participate
in, we must from some time at some time become involved, and the
reaction results the influence of the green power.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 1
00:01:03
You, right today, are not enjoying green power as much as some of the
gentlemen on the panel are, ‘cause these are professional men. You're in
the process of learning so you don't have too much green power at the
present time, but I'm sure that in the very near future, and you get your
degrees, and go out into the world, that you'll be a part of making green
power effective. It's pretty hard to say what green power means to
everyone, and some of us I'm sure don't appreciate it too much because
it's an everyday thing, but as a Black man, I know the green power,
must--means to me that I must have it in order to play an important part in
the community. If I don't have it, then I'm not too well respected in the
leadership capacity. If I don't have green power, I can't go to the store and
pay my bills and buy food and clothing for cash.
00:01:52
If I go into the store, the man would look at me and say ‘he is the one that
does not pay his bills because he doesn't have money.’ Looking at--I'm
looked at suspiciously. So until I can go in and pay my bills, buy for cash,
then he will ask you to come back again. This way, I can gain respect to
him, and to others that I do business with. The effect of green power is
very important, very important to the Black movement, or we must get into
the mainstream of green power, therefore, we must utilize our resources,
not only in our financial wizards such as Mr. Johnson, but in our resource
wizard such as Mr. Evan Anderson.
00:02:33
Collectively, we can get into the mainstream, teach and preach about the
effectiveness of savings, of investments, of mutual funds, of many ways
that we can become, we can get the use of green power. I'm sure that you
don't want to listen to me speak all day, and these gentlemen have given
you some background on their philosophy of green power so let's get to
the point and let you ask us some questions to get a good discussion
going.
00:02:59
[Norma Noonan] Before we open it up to the floor, do any of you want to
say a word or do you want to just get your question. You're speaking.
00:03:07
[Evan Anderson] No, I'll wait on it.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 2
00:03:07
[Norma Noonan] Okay, let's get some questions going and go from there.
Come on let's not all be shy. [Inaudible remark from a panelist] [Noonan
laughs]
00:03:20
[Audience member] Mr. Davis, I heard one of the panelists say this
morning--well, first of all let me say that I interpreted your remarks to say
that the use of money and the availability money is very important to the
solutions of that Black problem. I heard one of the families say this
morning, that if America is going to be saved, it's going to be saved by
Black America and it will be saved because Black America is not hung up
on the almighty dollar. In other words, they don't see everything in terms of
economics, you know to the extent of exploiting people, this type of thing.
00:03:56
I seem to sense some conflict between what he's saying and what you're
saying. It's hardly fair for me to try to tell you what he said [inaudible].
00:04:08
[Harry Davis] Well I can appreciate what he's saying, because I believe
that what he's trying to say is that we are not experienced in the tie-ups of
using other people for the value of a dollar or the benefit of the dollar to
us, but we must realize too, that to become effective and to get into the
power structure that we must accumulate and control a certain part of
green power this is a necessity, we have to, and until we can control and
accumulate some of this green power, then we're still going to be in the
rear, because we're going to be used for our money instead of using
others for their money.
00:04:42
You see, if we're not on the boards of banks, if we're not on the advisory
committee of banks, if we're not associated and stockholders and big
corporations, we have--we don't have too much to say of what they do
with our money, you see. And until we get on these boards, until we
become stockholders, then we can control and tell them what to do with
the money that we accumulate. We can control a certain amount of that
money. By controlling a certain amount of that money, we can become
powerful. Now, if we stay away from the banks, you see, we're not going
to be able to force banks to give us loans to finance homes and things of
that sort, and this is where the tie-up comes.
00:05:21
Many Black people do not have the opportunity, and are turned down by
banks, because they do not have good credit ratings or they have
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 3
established no credit whatsoever. So the banks will not give them money.
Now how are we going to force the banks to give them money if we don't
get into the mainstream and try to control some of that money in the bank?
So, we would have a voice in saying, ‘look you're you're not lending or
you're not encouraging Black people to come and use the facilities of this
bank, and you must do this because we are stockholders in this
corporation and we are stockholders in this bank and we want our money
used to benefit our people.’ This is only done at the present time by a
small part, a small segment of the Black community, but the more people,
the more Black people, we can get functioning on these boards and
controlling money, the better chance we will have to tell them how to use
this money.
00:06:18
You can take this from the Jewish movement. As an example, when they
went down to Miami Beach not too many years ago, they were told that
they weren't wanted. They couldn't be, they couldn't rent hotel rooms and
they couldn't go into certain restrooms, so they utilized their green power
and they bought the hotels [audience laughs] and then when they went
back and they told the man, the man said, ‘well you can't use you here,
we can't give you a room.’ They said ‘well no we can't, you don't have a
job either! Because I own this place.’ And unless we're just going to take it
by force, I'm sure that we realize that this is really necessary or possible
that we must get into the mainstream of controlling a certain model green
power.
00:06:56
[Clifford Johnson] Norma, may I respond to that as well? I see a
dichotomy in what Dr. Johnson says, but it's not the dichotomy that he
brought up, that he pointed out. The first dichotomy is the way you look at
the situation. First of all, he feels the problem as a Negro or a Black
problem, which is not the case at all. It has long since ceased to be a
Black problem, it's not a white problem. You know, it was a Black problem
as long Black people were unable to get from under the heel. Black people
are now insisting on being let from under the heel, so, therefore, it
becomes a white problem.
00:07:35
How do you deal with this new dilemma, this new situation, that you find
yourselves in? Do you permit the Black man to get a share, his fair share
of his birthright, or do you attempt to keep him under the heel and
therefore destroy the society? Now, this is precisely what the man was
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 4
talking about today, in this earlier session, that the salvation of this society
as it is, and I honestly cannot believe that it can survive as-is, but the
salvation is dependent upon the Black man.
00:08:15
Moving into the arena of the society, so far as economics are concerned,
the black man who is not accustomed to handling the dollar exploitatively
will be put in a position once he has it, to use his dollars, rather than to
exploit, to help people because having come out of a genesis in which he
recognizes the value of helping, rather than exploiting, he will, therefore,
use the dollar in a different means or manner than it has been used by the
white society. And so, therefore, we will get a total reorientation of our
society, so far as the value structure et cetera of our society is concerned,
so this is what I meant by the society not surviving as presently structured.
Because once we get an equally sharing on the part of people regardless
of what race, and you know that whites are about one-fifth of the
population of the globe, you're by far in the minority, so once we get all of
these other four-fifths of the world sharing equally in this economic state
that we're talking about, we're going to get a re-orientation.
00:09:39
And hopefully through this way society, the American society will survive,
but it is in this country, because the white man in this country is pitted
against colored people all over the world. So, once, through the process of
mobility of the Black man, demonstrating to the rest of the world that white
America knows how to live in an integrated society, and to permit its
colored people to partake in the society, then, of course, the vis-a-vis the
rest of the world, America, and the society might survive.
00:10:25
[Norma Noonan] Yeah. [presumably pointing to a member of the
audience]
00:10:28,
[Audience member] I'd like to ask the question to you, Clifford. Why does
the federal government require most of the anti-poverty organizations to
be non-profitmaking organizations, and do you think if this were different
that Black people could be able to help themselves more?
00:10:43
[Clifford Johnson] I got -- answer -- first part of your question, why? I don't
know, other than the fact that the government is a quote-unquote
‘nonprofit.’ But, I do agree with your contention here that we've got to get
out of this nonprofit bag, you know, got to get out of it. Everything that
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 5
Black people head up is nonprofit. Hell, look at the society it's
profit-oriented, we're a capitalistic society! So you got to permit that Black
man to get into some kind of operation in which he can make dollars off of
dollars, you know. Now we have, of course as I said this morning, the
most wealthy, the richest, the [inaudible] billionaires in this country are
people who produce nothing. Not one screw, not one nut, in our one bolt.
They produce nothing.
00:11:33
Their money go out and have babies, and make more money for them, so
we've got to permit Black people to get into the same bag! Where once
they can make a million, they can reinvest that million and make four or
five million, you see, and this is the bag they've got Black people wrapped
up in today or they can't make money because they don't let them have a
profit status corporations. Yes, I fully agree.
00:12:04
[Evan Anderson] On that matter of [inaudible], I happen to work for the
federal government. I, you know, studied quite a bit, but to me it's a type of
way like Mr. Pillow just spoke about. Our congressmen and congress
[inaudible] and so far and, as a gentleman here at the table, and myself,
we've come up with beautiful ideas and programs that could very easily be
incorporated into, you know, profit-making things. But you take for
example, we're limited so far. I think the type of situation is, you see
something happening, so let's go down there and be cool, you know, with
the riot starts, he comes running down and you might call it you fire
insurance policy, you might call your guilty conscience, or else you just
might call it, you know, security. But I think that, like he said, it could be a
lot of profit making things, a matter of fact, we'll always run into this
problem, whereas the federal government will give a grant to some type of
program and at the end of the year, if things didn't go to cool, or a lack of
interest is something to put in [inaudible] and a lot of times even if it's a
good program it just might not get funded.
00:13:04
It all the depends how they happen to feel that day, when they're voting in
Congress. But if this type of program could get funded right off the ground
or else if we had, even a small loan, you know, corporation we have that.
I'm talking about a large corporation loan. After that one year, I can't see
any way in the world where a person come up with a good, you know, a
program or an idea that will work to make money for people in the ghetto
that it couldn't take care of itself, and I agree with you 100%. I just want to
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 6
let you know that’s what Mr. Pillow meant when he said, let's start calling,
you know, if you believe in that [inaudible] congressmen and let them
know as, you know, you might even get your student body here to do it,
you know, and you might say ‘well what can we do, you know, half of us
aren't even of voting age,’ and I think there's 1,400 kids -- about students,
not kids, that go here. How many are here?
00:13:52
[Norma Noonan] 17 [hundred].
00:13:55
[Evan Anderson] Okay, well, seventeen hundred votes. They’re going to
start listening to that. That means 1,700 students, approximately, it means
that you also have double your parents at home. This is, you know, great
[inaudible] your strength. Why do you think that, you know, like if you ever
heard, it used to be when you wanted to become president, you go out to
the coal mines you go out to the factories, you shake hands and laborers.
Now where are they going? They're going to the campuses. Cause that's
where the strength is, and that's where the political view is because
they're trying to get you, because they know [inaudible] a year or two,
you're gonna be of that age. They'll be coming up for reelection, and and
that's the issue. You know, you are a power. If you believe in that, get
some people together and help us out, you know, [inaudible]. We need
your help.
00:14:32
[Unidentified panelist] I just make one quick comment. I think this is
entirely right that stop and think now who benefits? Who benefits, for
instance, from the employment of Black people, Indian people who
benefits from having them on welfare? Who gets that money? Well, it's a
guy who owns, you know, the big stores. It the small entrepreneur within
the inner-city area. It's the landlord, now who are these people? These are
all white people. They're the ones to get the money, flow of money, in
other words, you know, is out of the Black community, out of the Indian
community, and in the white community, so actually they're the ones that
benefit. And Cliff's entirely right that what we've got to do is reverse that
flow so that the white dollars begin to go to the minority communities, so
that they can begin to, in a sense, if you want to call it exploitation, okay,
but at least, you know, we've got it going one way, we have to, I think it
seems to me, reverse it.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 7
00:15:23
One good example of that, and this is a little bit different area than we're
probably talking about here, but I think it's parallel to what would be going
on in the inner city, the Black community made more obvious. Take a look,
for instance, at an Indian Reservation. Red Lake Indian Reservation would
be a good example of this. Now there is little or no industry on the Red
Lake Indian Reservation. There are some stores, the stores are owned by
white people. There's a community next door to it called Bemidji. The
outflow of dollars from the Red Lake Indian Reservation to Bemidji is
fantastic, in fact, if they, you know, one of their cheap tools that they can
use is a boycott of Bemidji. It throws everybody into an uproar in Bemidji
because the white man isn't making his dollars anymore and that threat
was used here a year or so ago.
00:16:11
There's a regulation, you can't have liquor stores, can't sell liquor on
Indian reservations. I think, generally accepted, that Indian people like the
rest of us drink once in a while. Well where do they go to drink? Where
they spend their money? In Bemidji. So who gets rich off of them? The
white people that owned the liquor stores in Bemidji, cause they can't own
any.
00:16:29
Well, you know, maybe liquor stores is only one example, but there's a
whole, where the dollars are, you know, are being taken out of here and
they're going into the pockets of the entrepreneurs who are all white and
that has to be reversed.
00:16:42
[Clifford Johnson] Norma, if Harry doesn't want to make a comment to
that. I'd like to make one other--draw one analogy here, and that is you've
got to compare your ghettos, whether particularly your minority group
ghettos and I'm speaking of Negro and Indian now, to a underdeveloped
country to use an international terminology. They are totally dependent!
They are totally dependent. So, part of the solution for getting out of this
bag is to make that ghetto self-sustaining. Put some business in that
ghetto, profit-making business.
00:17:20
Put some industry in that ghetto. What I mean is profit-making. Put some
grocery stores in there, and all of these things must be owned and are
managed by minority group people. And here you change in part, anyway,
the ghetto psychology that has created the problem. Here also you build
respectability for anyone. Because everybody respects John D.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 8
Rockefeller. You know, he's got the money, and we've got to do the same
kind of thing in the ghetto. Maybe not only John D. Rockefeller scale, but
the same process where we make those ghetto residents self-sustaining,
where they have dignity for themselves a great self-image and the kids
growing up in that ghetto can see symbols of success which they can't see
now. Only symbols of success in most instances is that pimp and that
prostitute.
00:18:26
[Harry Davis] I think a parallel can be drawn too of realizing that the core
city is much like the ghetto.
00:18:31
[Clifford Johnson] Right.
00:18:31
[Harry Davis] The majority of people that take money from the core city
move to Edina and St. Louis Park, spend their money there, improve their
schools, while our schools here go to pot, but they still depend on coming
here and taking our resources back away. That's just the same way as a
ghetto.
00:18:53
Now one thing that is, one movement that's being made in the very near
future of course, is the bank going in North Minneapolis. On that bank we
will have Black people running the bank, and owning a great deal, or the
majority of the shares in that bank. What will happen there, we'll put up the
shopping center with twenty or thirty different businesses, and then we’ll
train Black people in those businesses and after they learn the business
we'll sell the business to them at a small interest rate. So then the fact it's
sure there then we Black people there. It'll be Black businesses and you'll
say there would be separate businesses. They won't be integrated into the
community, but at least it'll be a starting point, so some of these
suburbanites that come into the city can buy something from the Black
people, and that they will benefit by it, because they will be there and
remaining there, not going out into the suburbs.
00:19:41
[Evan Anderson] This is the point I was going to add. Once you get those
businesses set up, then you know everybody in this room and a whole lot
of other people come in there with their dollars in their hands, you know, to
purchase what they have to offer in these stores. Same thing we do
anyplace else. Then you begin to reverse the flow of dollars and put it
where it's needed instead of taking away.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 9
00:19:58
[Harry Davis] You know, like one of those good soul food restaurants
where you can come in and eat. [audience laughs]
00:20:00
[Evan Anderson] I might also point out you've heard examples in how it's
gonna do. It is also, if you take for example, if you take Japan in the
Second World War. Well, I mean let's face it. You know, we went in and
we wiped them out, annihilated them, dropped it, you know, that bomb,
and then we came back and we said now we have a guilty conscience
after it's over, and we came back in and rebuilt that baby up, and now, and
I hope everyone here knows [inaudible] Japan is in today. They're one of
the leading countries in the world! Financially independent because we did
what, you know, we came in and gave them that hand, you know, and this
was just federally, you know, if these small business places would just
break down, I'm just saying small business, you know, you could just take
care of itself.
00:20:40
You might get into this analogy, ‘okay now I've heard everything you had
to say, but tell me, you know, why do people who drive Cadillacs and live
in raggedy houses?’ Well, they don't home that house and they really don't
own that Cadillac. The bank owns it, but it's theirs, and they'll go out and
get it washed and get cleaned and when they break out they'll be clean
too because they own that. Now why can't you see it, you know, why
should one, you know, drive through the ghetto he lives why shouldn't he
throw a beer can out in the street? He don't care, it ain’t gonna get
cleaned up anyways until they give, you know, ready for it.
00:21:07
Take, for example, the storms last year, you know. We had little kids on
the north side, nine to ten years old, cleaning up their parks, because they
were out cleaning up everywhere else. This is just the type of thing we're
talking about, is that once you give these people pride, you know, giving
this money get their own thing going. We ain’t going to have to go, right
now, our community [and write] ‘soul, brother’ on our windows, so we don't
get burned out, we worried about that, and this will--this creates this
problem, you know, we [inaudible] gonna have it. Well then there's
something of, you know, you own, it's something you have pride in and
that young brother out there is gonna see that, said ‘well dig, man,1 Evan's
1
“Dig,” used here is a reference to expressing support or interest, as in “I dig it.”
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 10
got a motorcycle shop’ or something, you know. Well cat2 says, ‘well I'm
going to school and give me a car dealership down here.’
00:21:42
That seems like a big joke, but that's what you do. You identify with those
white people, and you said ‘I dig that.’ Now, when you give us something
to identify with, outside you, well then we'll start doing it. Cause it's just like
when you look at it, you say, oh man that colored cat, right away you
turned off and when we see that white cat, it's the same thing, but every
time, you know, that, you know, that's why we have we have so much, you
know, admiration for the Black people that do get ahead that we claim,
you know, that some were militant people that are not Uncle Tom. Now we
just love them to death and, you know, if you gave the example, where
you take a hardcore person, and like Harry said, yeah, we get a cat that
he says, ‘Harry, I'm interested in clothing business,’ you know, so he
dresses clean on time.
00:22:23
He gets this opportunity to get this shop. Can you imagine what this would
do for a young cat to say, ‘well look man, there goes, a man I used to play
pool with this man, we played football together, he’s got his own clothing
store.’ This is what inspires people to go on. It's something, you know,
they can relate and identify with. It goes through the whole things of Black
history in the schools, the whole works. We gotta have our own identity,
you know, and we can't get it from you, you know, and that's just it. You
know, a real fair shake--
00:22:50
[Harry Davis] --I think one other comment on that, it just to make the
parallel again, about going back and billing up Japan after you tore it up.
We spend billions of dollars going in fixing up Japan, and they were our
enemy, and they would have annihilated us if they had a chance. We
spend billions of dollars repairing their country, and we let some of our
country even our own capital, where the Black people were living, still,
look like it was bombed, you know. Without offering any assistance
whatsoever.
00:23:19
We're doing that right here in the city of Minneapolis, because your park
board here, if you look at the park system, the parks in the ghetto areas,
the parks where the Negro people, the Black people live, are the lowest on
the priority list. They have new buildings put on it. Twelve blocks away
2
“Cat” used here is a reference to a person.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 11
from Nicollet Field is Powderhorn, and they needed a new building like I
need a hole in the head, but they got the new building and Nicollet Field
still has the old one and they won't get a new building for three years, you
see, and there are three times as many children using Nicollet Field as are
using Powderhorn. And if you look at Longfellow, the priority would have
even over Sumner Field in North Minneapolis.
00:23:58,
They had the same shack there at Sumner Field when I used to play at
Sumner Field when I was a child. I can't say how many years ago that
was. [Audience laughs] But it's the same building! It's the same building,
and they have made no attempt even to put any paint on it! And that's right
in the multiple dwelling unit section of town, where there are all kinds of
kids, you know--
00:24:19
[Evan Anderson] --Rats, roaches, outdoor bathrooms--
00:24:20
[Harry Davis]--everything else. See that this creates resentment and
people have no value at all what you care about what the dollar means.
Doesn't mean anything to them, because they never had it. You're talking
about examples. Well, right here in the City of Minneapolis, when I was a
kid, he's talking about something to look forward to, something to go to
college for, the only successful Black man I saw was a pimp, and the ones
that did have a college education were working in the post office.
00:24:45
[Evan Anderson] Right.
00:24:47
[Harry Davis] See? You have a lot to look forward to. Even your fathers
too. It may be possible for them to become president of the country, of a
corporation, to make millions of dollars, to go anyplace and every place
that their money can send them. But we may have the money, but there's
still places we can't go, right here in our own country, and this is what
creates resentment, and this is what has to be changed.
00:25:11
[Norma Noonan] Yeah. [presumably pointing to a member of the
audience]
00:25:12,
[Audience member] Evan said that Negro people need someone to look
up to. You know, ‘this person made it, so there's chance for me.’ I was
wondering if a Negro person who does make it or the professional, does
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 12
he stay right in the community or does he move out to the suburbia with
the rest of [people who make it or are professional]?
00:25:35,
[Evan Anderson] Let me tell you, we used to have that type of problem I
might say but, I think a lot of the brothers that moved out there, they were
off in that dream. I think a few of them are coming back. I don't know if
they'll move back, but let's take for example, we have people that made it,
you know, in a little teeny, teeny, what you could say that I made a
financially for a while. I'm not coming back to go to school and stuff. I
haven't moved out of the ghetto. Now Harry has, and I'm pretty sure that
Cliff has, but I don't know. But we're still in there, you know, we're there all
the time. You take for example a friend of our, mine, he happens to be a
professional athlete and, he's made it, you know, he doesn't have to come
back and they're coming back to help.
00:26:16
It's a cause now where like Gleason said this morning, you know, even the
cats that have made it, you know, that they haven't made it. What sense is
there in making it when you have to give up your own identity to make this.
And when I talk about identities, see, let me give you an example, you
know. You turn on the TV and I see you're John Wayne, you know, in
other words Walt Disney just ate it up. That just don’t get it. It has to be
violent. If you don't see John Wayne knocking a cat over a bar stool, it's
boring. Or, if you don't go to a show and see James Bond shoot 40 cats
off the mountain, then it's boring, you know, but you still dig this, because
you can identify with him.
00:26:47
That's a white man, see? But when I go, for sake of the identification, see,
but I tell you, one of these new movies, like I just dug to death, was this
one with Ossie Davis and Burt Lancaster. I had never seen no colored
man fight that long with a white man. [Audience laughs] No, look here, I
know people that went down--and it thrilled me to death. He didn't whoop
this colored cat, he tricked him a couple of times, and finally Ossie Davis
put the brick upside his head, man. This was great to me. Now, it wasn't a
violent thing that I dug, but this black cat [inaudible] just traded blows and
they were equal. See, and that's something that means something to me,
and I know that Ossie Davis they're coming back into the ghetto.
00:27:27
You take on your wall, for example, these pictures of Godfrey Cambridge.
Can you imagine that the schedule that they have, you know, it's just go,
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 13
go, go, and they're still helping their people. It's not the point that you have
to live on 38th and Fourth [Avenue South], or you live on Newton and
Plymouth over north, but the thing is that you keep your identity and you
help your people. When Cliff said about getting some money up and
helping the people, okay now take Harry, for example. One of the means
of us getting this bank was Harry. Okay so, you know he’s staying with his
people, he could have said ‘well, wait and I got my cousin here, and he'd
be good in his clothing store here, and mother's sister she'd be rich, but
no! We're bringing opportunity to the ghetto, and the, you know, residents
get it. You don't need fourteen years of college to get this type of thing.
That's what we're talking about.
00:28:12
See I can identify with Harry, you know, now you can't you dig this, you
know I come to your bank, I see you. Now I'm gonna go to the bank and
see me, I don't believe in banks too much, but I'll go to that one, because I
identify with them.
00:28:22,
[Audience member] It used to be that they’d say that the Negro who has
made it, kind of like the white exploitation [inaudible] the Negro has made
it also [inaudible] the lower class because, you know, they look down on
[inaudilbe] not help him--
00:28:42
--[Harry Davis] Let me think what we're trying to do what we hope to do,
what we hope to do and what we are doing. Doing right now. We're
making the Black middle class man and woman realize and recognize that
he must accept the pledge of the three T’s. And we’re going out to the
suburbia where he lives, doesn’t make a difference where he lives, cause
as long as he accepts this pledge and he will pledge to help Black people
with his time, his talent, and his ties.
00:29:14
He has to do this. He has to do this or he isn’t identified with us, so if he
doesn't spend some time with us, and give us his talent ,or shake in some
cash, he's not Black. He may be Black as coal, see, he's still not Black, so
we have no association with him. So this will bring them out of their little
parishes.
00:29:40
[Clifford Johnson] Harry, let me, let me--you can't understand the
movement of the Black individual who quote-unquote--1956 or there
before had made it away from the ghetto unless you understand what
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 14
white society did to the Blacks who lived in that ghetto, you see. Search,
for a moment your own repertoire of association of ‘Black.’ Bad, evil, it's
dirty, you know, on and on, blackball, you know the whole bit. So, it's all
evil, so there has been, there had been, until very recently schizoid
tendencies within the Black people, and Mr. Glover drew the analogy this
morning. They hated themselves!
00:30:37
Of course the moment they made it they got out of that ghetto because
this was associated with dirt, filth, evil, ugliness, on and on and on, so they
wanted to get away from that. They wanted to get away from--so they did
leave. Nobody had anything to do. They're never gonna reach back and
grab that brother and pull him up because by his residency in the ghetto,
he was identified with something dirty and evil and ugly. But coming back
to the ghetto doesn't necessarily mean that he's moving back into the
ghetto either. This is a kind of psychological identification with the Black
people who live there, though, I might have ‘made it,’ in so many words I
haven't because I can never make it as long as my brother hasn't.
00:31:29
As long as he's oppressed by the establishment. So, what has happened
here is that this racist country finally, the Black people have gotten over
this kind of schizoid tendencies and are being fused into one. We have a
Black community, I don't care where they live now. He's Black, because
he knows by virtue of that pigmentation, he could only go so far. He can
only go so far, but if, together, you become a nation you become, united,
you become strong and then you have Black power. These are some of
the things that Carmichael's3 advocating.
00:32:08
[Harry Davis] I think to clear up some of the suspicions in your mind and
what Evan was talking about, about the Black man fighting on par with this
cat in the movie, you must be realistic too. You must be realistic, you know
because you know Burt Lancaster didn't beat this guy, because there's
nobody, no white man ever beat Cassius Clay4 and he's the greatest
fighter that ever lived, you know, he's Black. Regardless of what his
philosophy is. You talk about strength and athletics. There's no way in the
world, physically, that you can say that you're superior. So you've got to
get this fiction, this out of your mind, too, when you advertise your super
3
4
A reference to Kwame Ture, then known as Stokely Carmichael.
The former name of Mohammad Ali.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 15
cereals and stuff like that, that's gonna make you powerful like Superman
and then you put a second class athlete on there.
00:32:52,
I mean this is dreamy, you know, you're dreamy. So you've got to be
realistic. You've got to be realistic, and you've got to spend some of that
green power on that man that's making it, you know, because you'll spend
five hundred dollars just to go down and see Cassius Clay fight. Or you
see Bill Russell play basketball. Some guys run around the end on the
football team, but you wouldn't invite him into your house for dinner, you
know. So, you gotta be realistic when you're talking about power, physical
power, mental power, green power, whatever you're talking about.
00:33:22
It all is together that you're gonna have to realize that you're not superior,
that you're not superior. Regardless of what phase you're talking about.
Even if it's your green power, see, that can't buy you strength, it can't buy
you health.
00:33:40
[Evan Anderson] I think another thing, on that on the same line, is that you
give up your own myth and your old bag to a fighting but you turn that
‘good Negro,’ you know, the one that comes up is nice to you and tells you
what you want to hear. Because, like I'm saying, you know, you have to
hear it told like it is. You never be in a world of trouble if you get out here
through these so-called what you might call a typical ‘good Negro,’ and
you get involved with someone that knows what's happening. You go into
that ghetto, you will be in a world of trouble.
00:34:05
Most definitely, you know, I know so-and-so, or something. But this is the
type of thing, you know, that's what I'm talking about. Cliff said we're
getting together and that's why, you know, you talk about some people say
‘we're afraid of Black power because,’ you know, ‘you identified with
violence,’ but a lot of intelligent white people are afraid of Black power for
the main reason he said that the Black people are getting ourselves
together. Look, you had us fighting among each other somewhat long ago
now he's ‘Uncle Tom’ he's Milton.
00:34:31
He's getting himself together, we don't know about him, but now we're
saying, ‘okay you don't dig me, I may not dig you we're gonna get this
cause,’ and see in this city it's really starting to move a lot of people
because you've got people like myself on that TV talking you got people
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 16
like friend of mine and [inaudible] we got [inaudible], then we got the Harry
Davis's and the Ed Pillows and we're all talking the same talk and you
people are starting to realize one thing. That's Black Power.
00:34:58
[Harry Davis] I think we are realistic too. I know that I am becoming
realistic of what my values are. Like Cliff said, yeah I could very well
disassociate myself with Black people, but the place that I'm employed at,
when they had the riots in ‘66, the first person they ran to is to me. What
happened? Now I'm supposed to know what happened, you see, because
I'm Black. You know, I'm supposed to have been one of the fellas that
threw the brick, threw the Molotov cocktail because I'm Black. Alright, so if
they identify me with that one that threw the Molotov cocktail, then I'm with
you, you see, because I never lose that identity, because I'll never be
anything but Black, so I must associate with him.
00:35:45
So I realized too that I can't disassociate myself with him, and in order for
us to advance, I've got to reach back and hold his hand, so that, wherever
I go, I'm gonna pull him right with me. I've got to hold his hand too, so he
don't drop back down into the bind that he's been in for a long time. And
we've got to help each other, and that self-help. See because we've
waited 400 years for you to help us. You haven't helped us yet.
00:36:11
[Unidentified speaker] You suggest one other specific thing it seems to me
needs to be done. I'm talking about this profit-making kind of thing where
Black people, Indian people, can begin to make profits. You've got to
make profits.
00:36:20
If you're going to make profits, you've got to make profits off where the
money is and the money is with the white community, it's where the
money is. So that you know you go in there and you begin to help them
make a profit. Some people say, well, you know, ‘this is a hard thing to do.
I don't even dare go over where these place -- I don't dare go to North
Minneapolis, I don't dare go to South Minneapolis, I don't dare go to
Franklin Avenue,’ but I think this has, this kind of attitude has to go, in fact,
if I may just be so presumptuous that if you go in there you know with
$100 in your hand you're probably more likely to get in, go with nothing,
you know. I want to spend this money here to help this guy make a profit
on his business, you know.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 17
00:36:54
[cross talk from the panelists who agree and laugh] somebody's gonna get
taken to the cleaners. Big deal, you know. I get taken to the cleaners all
the time by white insurance salesman, white auto mechanics, and the
whole thing, you know, so do you. So it's about time it's, you know, some
other people start to take people's opinions if that's what it takes.
00:37:16
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:37:56
[Evan Anderson] Talking about our own stores?
00:37:57
[Clifford Johnson] No, we don't have any.
00:37:58
[Audience member continues asking question]
00:38:06
Let me give you an example. You take your little disturbance you had
here, you had some places on Plymouth [Avenue]. They ran by, they know
who to touch up, you know, Black people that own places, like I said, didn't
have ‘soul brother’ written on it, you know, you take anywhere you want to
go in the country, if they even had a good majority of Black people working
there they didn't get burned out. Those places in Watts that stood after all
that burnt, there's places in Detroit that stood after all that burned. Look
here, I’m talking about--if you understand what I'm talking identifying with
one another.
00:38:42
Now let's say that Cliff, and Vern, and Harry happen to be in the shopping
center, and I know they're the only three in there. It's me and my boys, say
‘look here man, I need some bread man. I can't get a job, and the cat next
door, Cliff got TVs, well I can sel] them TVs and sell them to nice white
people.
00:38:58
I also heard it said a while back that we weren’t there stealing Cadillacs
and Buicks. Dr. Ralph Abernathy said that we're not doing that. What are
they stealing when they riot, then I’ll get back to this. Food, clothing, TVs
where they can make some cash, things that they need, but when I go
through that shopping center, you think I'm gonna get him? I might need
him to get me out of jail. [laughter from the panelists] There's a whole
bunch of reasons I'm not gonna be, cause I identify with him. He knows
me, I know him. I'm not gonna do any harm to him. You're the one that
does harm to me.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 18
00:39:29
You know, in other words, you know, that's the same reason saying if you
come in your house, you know, and you're mad at someone, you don't go
up and slap your mother. You might go out and slap somebody you don't
know, but you don't take, you know, this physical type of attention on
people that, you know, you care for and you identify with and, you know,
that be the same type of thing saying if I go out and get jumped by white
boys in Edina, I'm gonna come back over south and start whipping all the
colored dudes. It just don't work like that.
00:39:53
[Clifford Johnson] Just a brief addition to what Evan said. What we're
talking about here is how to eliminate, prevent the explosions you're
talking about in the ghetto. The reason we happen--now, Negroes don’t
own a damn thing in the ghetto. One or two stores, you know, and Evan
said, they passed them by and what I am, what we are saying here that if
you give those residents of the ghetto an opportunity to own these things,
whether they are in the ghetto or not, you provide hope for the young guys
today who are burning and destroying, older too, who have no hope, you
see, and once they own that out, hell there hasn't been a house in the
ghetto that's been owned by a Negro since there was a ghetto, you know,
these tenement houses are owned by rich Jews and rich white cats who
live out in suburbia.
00:40:51
This is what we're talking about we're talking about. We're talking about
putting them there so that those kids growing up will have some identity
and some hope for the future where he can go, What, if he does this and
this and this he can also achieve. These are the things that we're talking
about.
00:41:11
[Norma Noonan] I think we have one more question, yeah.
00:41:12
[Audience Member, possibly LaJune Thomas Lange (née Johnson)] Isn't it
also that they didn't own these places, but also they were being cheated in
these places too. It wasn't that just that a white person owned this store.
The white person was charging higher prices for inferior merchandise and
other things that brought out other injustices and one example that we
have at Augsburg is that we own Larson’s.5
5
Larson’s Fairway, a store at 2129 Riverside Aenue, was purchased by Augsburg in 1967 (Echo,
5/17/1967). It is now the site of the Oren Gateway Center.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 19
00:41:35
But the Augsburg community does not support that store, but no member
of the outside community, especially the Indian community, is employed
there. Only white people are working there. It's supposed to be a
community store. So, we can start right here, breaking out this green
power problem because we're not hiring any Indians and they live all
around the area and go to the store, and we own that store, totally now.
00:42:02
[Unidentified speaker] Dr. Johnson has a question.
00:42:04
[Norma Noonan] Yeah, Glen…?
00:42:05
[Glen Johnson, speaking from the audience] Clifford, if I understand you
correctly, you’re saying that one of the solutions for the problem is to make
members of a Black community or ghetto capitalists.
00:42:15
[Clifford Johnson] This is what the society is all about, doc.
00:42:19
[Glen Johnson] I don't have much confidence in the capitalist society.
00:42:21
[Clifford Johnson] Well, nor do I but we're talking about sustaining the
society as best we can as it presently exists.
00:42:28
[Glen Johnson] You're suggesting that once they become members of
capitalist society, your soul brothers will act in an enlightened way
because of all the suffering they've--
00:42:36
[Clifford Johnson] Now, wait a minute. Your terminology is confusing me,
what's enlightened?
00:42:43
[Glen Johnson] Well you used the term, I believe or something like it. They
wouldn't exploit people after they
00:42:47
[Clifford Johnson] Humanistic is the term I used
00:42:49
[Glen Johnson] Humanistic way? Alright.
00:49:49
[Clifford Johnson] Yeah.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 20
00:42:50
[Glen Johnson] How many generations will this continue?
00:42:54
Depends on the establishment. I say that we can make some major
strides in this direction in the next five to ten years. The establishment
willing, the establishment recalcitrant and unwilling as it is today. We don't
have any time. Time has almost run out. I say that America must take a
definitive stand and provide significant demonstrations of its willingness to
grapple with and solve this problem, otherwise we're out of time already.
00:43:39
[Evan Anderson] You know I might say Cliff too, that you know Cliff says
five to ten years. Well getting back to the aspect that I would like you to
love me, you know, I'm humanistic too, but the thing I will and must have is
your respect. And saying about ‘how soon can it be done,’ well we've just
gone over ways of helping each other, organization that Cliff is with,
TCOIC,6 we have OEO,7 we have [inaudible] programs, not only do you
have Harry involved in the vast majority of programs. If Congress wanted
to, well let me give you an example, then I'll tell you what Congress would
do.
00:44:14
They go over to Vietnam and like Mr. Pillow said, they take a person that
can't even speak English language, you know, and they take him and
within a month he's trained to do whatever they want him to do, you know.
So why couldn't Congress say okay and we face this and come down with
a blank check and say now do the job that would do away the rioting and
everything else. We can, look, we can build up our own communities.
We've got programs. I've got ideas. I'm sure that you probably have some
Doctor Johnson, that in some way, would help us.
00:44:47
You can even help yourself here at Augsburg. You don't need that federal
[inaudible] to come down and help the Indians, see but we're talking about
if we could get that or the door, the establishment. I don't want to get hung
up in a type of thing where we want you, you know, to love us so much.
That has to be a known fact, you know, because sparrows will still stay
with sparrows and crows with crows.
00:45:06
That's human nature, but the thing is it could be attacked tomorrow, it
could be attacked right now, if they've read out that blank check. Now,
6
7
Twin Cities Opportunity Industrialization Center.
Office of Economic Opportunity.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 21
we're not talking about thirty zillion dollars or something like this, you
know, but we're talking about a rough number, one hundred million dollars,
paid over a period of ten years.
00:45:21
We could do it ourselves! But what they want to do, you know, there's
such a violent nation they're gonna tell us not to be violent, in the
meantime bomb away in Vietnam and everything else, but that's the
hang-up. They realize the problem up there, they just don't want to get in
position to spend that money. And if America, if the citizen was gonna
stand up and say, ‘now look here baby, our security's being risked, I may
not dig color people either, but I do happen to dig being, you know, a
human being. I appreciate the fact of security for my children given what
they need, you know,’ and would be done like tomorrow we could be on
the trek because we're on the trek now, we just don't have that green
power.
00:46:00
[Harry Davis] You're talking about getting rid of your animosities, you
know. The Black man did some rioting within the large cities of our
country, but see you get rid of your animosities, your successes, and
failures and so forth, you do that by tearing somebody else's country up,
you know. You go over and tear up Vietnam, go over and tear up Korea,
go over and tore up Germany, Cuba, and every place else. You tear their
countries up, you don't do anything here.
00:46:26
We don't have the green power to go up and tear up somebody else's
country. We gotta care for our own country before you realize that we
want to get rid of our animosities that you have created in us, you see, and
that we are human enough to store these animosities and want to get rid
of them. See we're not some animal, we're just like you. You get rid of
your animosities in somebody else's backyard. We can't go to somebody
else's backyard, because we don't have the green power to get there.
Maybe we'll get rid of some of our animosities, you can let us get some of
that green power. We'll get rid of it over in Germany or Cuba, someplace
else.
00:47:00
[Norma Noonan] I'm gonna let it go [inaudible]
00:47:04
[Audience member, possibly Glen Johnson] There's an essence in our
[inaudible] question I think that needs a little more development here. If I
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 22
understood it [inaudible] we’ve been sold, in part, a bill of goods--I’m not
saying it’s good or bad, true or not, but a bill of goods that the salvation of
the country is within the Black community. And this is based, in some
respects, on humanistic tendencies, that is is not a matter of a materialistic
point of view [inauduble] The questions [inaudible] is this essence within
the community, within the people? How many generations will it last? If the
Black community is within the capitalistic society, will they get away from
their history so that they also become [inaudible]. Or not?
00:48:00
[Clifford Johnson] You have been, hopefully, sold a bill of goods. I hope
you buy the whole package. Not that the Black community has any
humanistic tendencies. This was not intended. This--what was, what is, in
fact, intended is that, unlike you, unlike any other nation, except maybe
the Jewish nation, the Negroes know what deprivation means. They know
what exclusion means. They know what suffering means. Dr. Martin
Luther King's theory of turn-the-other-cheek was nothing new to Negroes!
They had been turning the cheek for 400 years! All four of them, you
know, so this is nothing new. Now what we are saying here and back up a
step.
00:48:56
Unlike the Jews, the Jewish people, of olden days of Europe and fifteen
sixteenth century, they had the economic resources with which to buy less
suffering, with which to buy certain privilege, with which to buy certain
exclusions for themselves. The Black community in America's never had
any of this. Now, the point being that because the Black community has
endured in the greatest of depths of deprivation that they will be more
inclined to be humanistic, you see. Are you with me now?
00:49:34
Not that there is any inclination in each ordination of Black people to be
humanist, not at all. This just has to do with that culture that you keep
saying we don't got.
00:49:49
[Audience member, possibly Glen Johnson] How many generations will it
last?
00:49:52
Well, that was the other point that I wanted to make. It's hard to say, it
depends. Now, the position that I take here, is that we will get as a result
of this integration, thorough total integration, of Black people into the
economic society, will get a reorientation of that total society, you see. We
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 23
can say that it took us four hundred years to get this far. Four hundred
years ago, someone had asked you that same question, you wouldn't
have been able to answer it. So we don't know. If we are successful in
reorienting the totality of the society, it might last as long as the society
remains in that particular strata or structure.
00:50:46
[Unidentified person] Can I say--
00:50:46
[Norma Noonan] No, use your hand.
00:50:46
[Audience member, possibly LaJune Thomas Lange (née Johnson)] Do
you think that the white man has, really any right to ask the Black man,
does he feel qualified to participate in a capitalistic system when the white
man started participating in the capitalistic system he was exploiting
human beings from the beginning? So I don't think he is right to ask the
Black man whether he's going to exploit in five generations because he
started out exploiting people in the beginning so --
00:51:15
[Clifford Johnson laughs]
00:51:17
[Evan Anderson] Yeah. [applauds]
00:51:21
[Unidentified panelist] I think there's, see, there's another thing going on
here, too, which I think probably people within the college/university
setting are aware of, maybe painfully aware of at times, but there's a kind
of a cultural revolution going on, I think in this country in addition to this,
and which I would see even as you know closer joining of forces the
farther goes along here. Primarily led by young people, you know, who
have had it up to here with the system as they see it. The whole system,
the college system, the capitalistic system, the unions, the business, the
whole thing, and they are saying in effect that the system, you know, is
basically sick.
00:51:58
It doesn't recognize people's basic human qualities. It doesn't allow for
these to come forth. Instead, it treats people as things rather than as
people, that type of thing, and I think joining of these forces that I don't
think we can help but see some changes in the system, whether it results
in a collapse of it as we've known it, or total revamping, I'm not prepared
to say. I think, though, that we have really only a couple of choices: either
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 24
it collapses entirely or you open it up at all levels for everybody. Open up
at all levels, and then hope that once this gets infiltrated by people who
are not hung up in this thing about manipulation all that type of thing and
treating people as things, hopefully, that they don't lose their human
qualities.
00:52:39
Now sometimes that happens, I recognize that, but hopefully by infiltrating
the kind of thing we're opening up and so that it does have some effect on
the system also.
00:52:44
[Norma Noonan] Don't you think too that it would take many many
generations to forget hundreds and thousands of years of suffering? You
don't forget suffering overnight. The Jews if you, except for the Hitler
interlude, have had it good for a long time, they haven't forgotten.
00:52:59
[Inaudible question from the audience] I’d like to ask one question of Mr.
Davis, you--ah, or Doctor Davis, correct? Doctor Davis?
00:53:06
[Harry Davis] No. [audience laughs]
00:53:06
[Audience member] You were talking about banking in the sense of, you
know, using a bank in the Black community to buy and build a shopping
center, and then selling the shops to the proprietors eventually. Now, what
are the possibilities of the Black community in Minneapolis or any other
city withdrawing their money from the white banks and filling their own
bank and controlling this bank or setting up a target bank within that area
and buying that bank? Like, well what's a fairly [inaudible] alright, the
Northwestern Bank system. Buy out a majority of Northwestern Bank and
use that money. You'd have a majority of Negro money, you'd have a
minority of white money, but you'd be able to use the full resources of that
one bank, so buy out the thing. What are the possibilities of the Negro
community using a bank system to bring up their green power potential?
00:53:58
[Harry Davis] This is exactly what we are plotting to do, you know when
you're on the bank board, you get paid for every meeting.
00:54:07
[Audience member] Yeah, a hundred dollars.
00:54:08
[Harry Davis] You know. Right some of them get more. Yes, much more.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 25
00:54:13
Yes. So as a bank board member, you see, and if we had fifteen Black
men on the bank board every time they'd have a meeting they just turn
their money back to the stock, you just keep purchasing more and more of
that stock. The first thing you know they'd own the bank and then, of
course, they could buy out some other bank, you know, go buy out some
other business or invest--
00:54:32
[Audience member]-- or buy out the white man's ghetto
00:54:32
[Harry Daivs] -- right, or else loans money to some white people building
homes and then foreclose the mortgages, you know. [audience laughs] It's
the same thing, actually and what's good for the goose is good for the
gander if we can do this, this is where we'll improve.
00:54:49
Right, there's nothing wrong with it, you see, that's right, you see, if you
can't beat them, join them.
00:54:57
[Audience member] In my hometown, I live near the ghetto in my
hometown, I’ve associated with Negroes since I was little kid. And only in
the last five years, not five years, last ten years have I gotten any
prejudices because when I was a little kid, prejudices, you know a thing
that I didn't even know the meaning of, and then I moved to a Jewish
neighborhood, and I found out that the idea of prejudice against the Jews
was false and I found out when I, later on, in these past five years or so,
that the prejudice against the Negro neighborhood is also false, or
prejudice against any people, individuals yes, but as a group of people no.
The Jews have--oh, my track is that, through the money power of the
banks that the Jews have done and I’ll list some of the others: Krugers,
Rothschild originally were Jewish people and probably still are. [audience
laughs]
00:55:54
They have received social equality through their banks and I believe that
green power of the Black community, this green power of social equality
through the banks is what will eventually predominate over any other
power you just have done it before in history.
00:56:07
[Harry Davis] Green power controls political power too [inaudible].
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 26
00:56:1
[Evan Anderson] You're saying that also that you found out that people are
not prejudiced towards a mass of like Black people, is that what you were
saying?
00:56:20
[Audience member] No, I'm finding that the prejudice against a group of
people because of their background like a Jewish Community, Polish
community, Norwegians, Swedes, anything is false. I found out that
prejudice against a community saying that, you know, all Blacks are bad,
or all Jews are you know, money grubbers is completely false. Individuals
in each group [inaudible] bad individuals are good.
00:56:42
[Evan Anderson] I would say that suggests that instead of you moving
into your Jewish community that you move over northeast for a couple
weeks. I believe that you will be put in [inaudible] prejudice if you don't
believe that a segment of a community is prejudiced against another
community
00:56:59
[Audience member] No I found these prejudices are false, I did not find
that they are
00:57:05
[Evan Anderson]-- Well
00:57:05
[Audience member]-- I just find that they are false.
00:57:06
[cross talk among the panelists]
00:57:08
[Norma Noonan] Now listen, I'm getting all kinds of signals that we should
break up, but this is too good to break up so if you want to leave to go to
Dudley Riggs, leave. The rest of us will stay.
00:57:19,
[Audience member] I'd just like to say one thing in terms of, I've heard
[inaudible] expression that by having the oppressed have power over the
oppressor that some way or other we are going to [inaudible] humanity
and I don't think that this historically, sociologically, or psychologically true.
I think only as we deal with each other as human beings, one to another in
solving these problems will we solve them. I don't think if you whip a dog,
and then make the dog the boss, you're taking a very good risk.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 27
00:57:56
[Clifford Johnson] I will only have to say you've heard incorrectly. This is
not been what has been said. You misheard what was said.
00:58:07
[Harry Davis] I don't think the oppressed want to take advantage of the
oppressor, they just want to have an opportunity to have the same
advantages that he has and then we're on equal terms.
00:58:14
[Audience member] Harry, I was just talking in terms of this humanity that
one is supposed to gain by being whipped and by being mistreated and it
doesn't hold much water. If you're mistreated you may learn to turn the
other cheek, but when you get a chance to punch back, you probably will.
00:58:33
[Clifford Johnson] Your statement here is quite correct in individual
instances.
00:58:39
Take the military forces during World War II, for example, hell that was
nothing more desirable than from a Black boy out of Georgia to get up in
Washington DC and catch one of his white oppresses in that camp. Beat
hell out of it, you know. But that doesn't change the fact that that Black boy
out of Georgia would still be humane toward other Black people who are
still down in Georgia suffering. This is the point.
00:59:14
[Audience member] There are white people down in Georgia suffering.
00:59:13
[Clifford Johnson] Give less than a damn, [someone in the rooms laughs]
you know, this isn't hang up. Whites, regardless to whether they're
prejudiced or not, regardless of whether they have been part of this
institution that has been oppressive, our representative by virtue of the
fact that you have a white face. You represent the establishment!
Therefore, you are an oppressor, you know, and Evan made point earlier,
you talking about blame it on your mother, and your grandmother, you
know, and your great grandmother.
00:59:42
[Inaudible response from the audience member]
00:59:48
[Unidentified panelist] Let me make a comment, and I think this is what
you know it's brought home to me by by one of the Black people on our
staff, when he and I were talking to a church group never came through.
We know what's going on now in our society, talk about the white society
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 28
for a minute. The fact that, you know, some guy can, this actually
happened, it happens all the time. Some guy, some white fellow, will be
laying out on the street, you know, just laying there, and people walk
around, you know, look at what the hell's matter with that guy laying on the
street. The very most they do is call the police.
01:00:18
That's a very most they'd do, or the incidents that are going on in New
York City that have gone, you know the whole bit. Somebody gets
murdered, they don't want to get involved. It was pointed out by this fellow
on our staff to a group of white people from this church, said, that is
inconceivable that a Black person would be laying on the sidewalk
anyplace and Black people would walk around and passing by and look at
him like that. Now, that says to me that the white community has lost
something, if they ever had.
01:00:41
I think maybe they did it on time.
01:00:43
[Audience member] Well I’ve see it on the Southside of Chicago, maybe
inconceivable--
01:00:46
[Unidentified panelist] That it's going to occur--
01:00:48
[Audience member] That it's going to occur, but I've seen it occur.
01:00:51
[Unidentified panelist] Okay, alright. But would you agree that it's less
likely to occur in the Black community, I asked these guys.
00:01:00
I don't know the Black community. I don't know every individual Black
person's relation with every other that much, but I know, I have a good
friend who's a principal in the Black high school in Chicago that it took him
three years before he could leave school after dark.
01:01:15
[Clifford Johnson] Sure because he was identified with the white
establishment, he'd become a white n*****. Sure that's right. No, but have
you ever been with the Negro riding or walking in a completely strange
Black community. One thing that you will notice, if you ever do it. Strange
Negroes walking down the street will smile or wave. Smile or wave
because they have this in common they know that they have all endured
something because of the color of their skin. This is what we're talking
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 29
about here. He's going to identify with and reach back--now today, ten
years ago it wasn't, weren't the case, but today, reach back and help that
negro.
01:02:07
[Audience member] [Inaudible] I see a contradiction in what you're saying
now. These people were not smiling and waving at this Negro principal,
maybe because he was a white n*****, but still took him three years to
perform the kinds of relationships where he could go through the territory
safely after dark.
01:02:28
[Clifford Johnson] You've missed the total genesis that has taken place in
Black America in the last ten years. There's been a whole psychological
reorientation and re-identification that has taken place in the last ten
years. Harry Davis, ten years ago, wasn't identified. Hell, he might again
stoned had he walked into some Black community, you know. This is a
fact. We are dealing with a different set of values, a different type of an
orientation in Black America today.
01:03:09
[Audience member] You mean Harry has to make his commitment
[inaudible] and has made his commitment--
01:03:11
[Clifford Johnson] Well, Harry had to make his commitment, yes!
01:03:1
[Evan Anderson] Harry understands the [inaudible] realized one thing and
no matter where you're at when the stuff comes down you can't run, you
can't hide cause you're still Black and you might have a whole legion of
white people there with you, but the first thing--you know the thing we did,
we understood this whole bag, you know, someone said this is what's
happening, but see we didn't come out and attack you right away we
attacked our own selves. We got ourselves together and we got the cats
that could hurt us now see, now I just think what Harry could do.
01:03:45
The position he's in now if he wasn't with us. We wouldn't be talking about
any banks, we couldn't get them. Well we got, we get organized and
ironed out these differences. We said ‘now look here baby. Either you get
in touch and walk with us or you're not gonna walk at all and you will be
the first one to fall,’ cause Malcolm X said the first man you have to get is
that Uncle Tom and that's the situation. That is the situation. We're gonna
make it together. Look here, you know, we're gonna make it together or
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 30
we ain't gonna make it at all. We're gonna bring everybody with us. Shit
Harry don't have to bring nobody with him.
01:04:13
Man he could sit up [inaudible] and just get filthy rich and he could run off,
and get on to St. Louis Park and have a big old castle and everything and
sooner or later we get to hear it. He's not stupid. He's realistic. You have
to be realistic and he still loves his people, that's all.
01:04:34
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:05:41
[Evan Anderson] Just keep catching yourself.
[The recording cuts off at 01:05:44]
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 31
Show less
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255b
Description: Reverends Robert Evans, Rollie Robinson, and Orpheus Williams of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in a morning panel moderated... Show more
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(morning session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255b
Description: Reverends Robert Evans, Rollie Robinson, and Orpheus Williams of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in a morning panel moderated by Dr. John
Benson. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial
injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:04:09
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[John Benson] Good morning, my name is John Benson. I'd like to
introduce two of the three members of our panel today. Irvin Orpheus
Williams probably found out that he was being billed as a Lutheran rather
than a Baptist so he decided he wouldn't come. [laughter] If he comes
later, we will introduce him again that time. On my right is Reverend
Robert Evans of Prince of Glory Lutheran Church in the Plymouth Avenue
area. On my left is Reverend Rolly Robinson, a Methodist Calvary
Methodist Church in the same area.
00:00:47
I've asked each of them to lead off with a brief statement and as they are
speaking you might respond to something that they say, or you might want
to ask them something about their work, or you may have a question of
long-standing about the general subject of racism in the church. So after
they are finished, we'll open up the floor to questions from you. First of all,
let me call on Pastor Evans.
00:01:19
[Pastor Evans] Thank you John. Racism is a kind of frightening word, but I
think it's a very subtle word. I don't think I'm going to say a lot here, I
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 1
would rather open it up for some kind of dialogue that might happen here
in any [inaudible] and chemistry. I was on Nicollet Avenue not--well--two
days ago and I saw the Nauga1 there, if you know who the Nauga is,
you've seen him on TV, but a great big guy in a Nauga suit and all of the
little kids were scared stiff and this guy was you know walking down
Nicollet Avenue, a kind of advertisement and I got the idea that most
people have this image of racism, that the racist is a guy who has no
horns and a forked tail and is a terrible kind of guy that speaks out
violently against black people and so forth.
00:02:27
But I think this is a cop-out in terms of our understanding of what racism
really is. I think racism is very subtle. I think it's a part of all of us of the
white community. I am convinced that we are saturated with a sense of
superiority, and even a lot I think that goes on in the church today and in
our white society, in behalf, behalf of minority groups is a kind of
expression of this subtle racism that we have.
00:03:01
Typical example: I was at a meeting yesterday, and again on Nicollet
Avenue, we had a some delegates at a meeting who came in from New
York, they stayed at the Pick-Nicollet. There are also a lot of Presbyterians
in town and--and we were handed a threat by someone, I don't know if he
was a Presbyterian or not, but it was a--it was a pitch in behalf of
integration on a religious level and there were a series of pictures I wish I
had the thing here, but in every picture, there was a white man helping a
black man. Even to the point where he gave him a blood transfusion.
00:03:44
And the idea was they are as good as we are, and it was really a racist
kind of position. Which literally assumed paternalism, a kind of benevolent
love from the second-story window as I would call it, and what came out
really was meant to be a very positive thing, and yet, some of our black
people who were there, a man from Chicago said, "this--this is a, this is a
racist trap." And I think this thing becomes extremely subtle, I don't think
our task today is to prove that you know there is racism in a church, I think
historically it has been there, not because of the church, I think, but in
spite of it, and you may want to get into the historical background, I know
Dr. Torstenson here has made some interesting studies of what has
happened in the church.
1
The Nauga was a monster character used in advertisements for Naugahyde vinyl fabrics.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 2
00:04:44
Two sets of baptismal orders of service, one for white people and one for
black people because you have to be careful, when you talk about in
baptism, setting a person free. I don't think the point here today is to
belabor the point of the historical church, and to argue whether or not
racism has been there, that's you know--that's like discussing whether or
not they're Eskimos in Alaska or not, that's obvious and I would hope to
think that our task today is to try and say, what do we do about the overt
racism that exists in the church and also the very subtle kind that
permeates me and you, and the white society and how do we get at this,
it's not like taking the speck out of the eye through a little exercise of doing
something good for black people, or confession, but I think it's maybe for
us, it's our thorn in the flesh that we're going to have to live with, we're
going to have to work it constantly, daily.
00:05:49
I think we're going to have to be sensitive to the fact that our culture, our
white society is in fact saturated with a tendency of white racism. I think it
calls for real honesty and particularly in the church where we do have, we
have the principle, we have the philosophy, we have a power I think to
overcome this. I think in the past, we have neglected this and--and maybe
now, we ought to be what we were meant to be, what we are called to be,
and maybe the greatest task right now is to face honestly and openly. You
know, “how am I handling the racism, it is a part of me?” I suppose we
could list a whole variety of examples and reel these off all morning.
00:06:40
I could just mention one, I have a young negro boy in my confirmation
class now, he's thinking about making his confirmation, we do it on an
individual basis not as a class, but his mother tells me, I don't want my son
confirmed at Prince of Glory. I don't want him confirmed a Lutheran. And I
said, “why?” She said “well, I know that he will be and has been accepted
there, but she said, I've been in other churches, I've been in other
Lutheran churches, and I know that he and our family will not, because we
have been there and felt not--not a kind of dismissal, but the kind of subtle
thing that--that kind of says without words, you know, why don't you just
kind of drift away.“
00:07:35
She said, “For this reason, I'm very concerned about my son and I'm not
sure I really want him confirmed in a Lutheran Church.” That's racism, and
that's us. And I hope that we can open some kind of splitting ourselves
down the middle, and take a good look at this, this morning.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 3
00:08:08
[Reverend Robinson] Last Sunday, I was confronted by a long-standing
layman in my congregation, and being president of The Way,2 he asked
me some very pointed questions about The Way and he said, what's this
about The Way? what's this about looting, all sorts of questions came
flooding out of his mouth, and he said, “people have no reason for looting
and they should be shot if they're caught looting.” And I said, “I'm sorry if I
take the commandment ‘thou shalt not kill’ much more seriously than that.”
and he said, “I'm sorry I can't understand that, I think if someone has
broken the law, they broken the law to be punished accordingly.”
00:09:00
And so goes, not the kind of racism that was evident in the fifties, when
mothers could spit upon, white mothers could spit upon black children
and, black mothers and fathers, or a white father and a white mother
bringing their white children to an integrated school.
00:09:19
That kind of racism is--is not around in that form, it's a much more subtle
kind, and I think that you yourself are going to have to be aware of that,
and I think, the kinds of questions you may ask this morning, as the kinds
of questions are going to be awfully pointed to yourself. I think Bob has
made it clear, we think of racism in our own projection on somebody else.
I am a racist. I say that in the sense, and when I do say that, I recognize
that play a little game because that's a kind of confessional, it comes only
at moments in one's life, but as Paul said that when “I'm one of the
greatest sinners,” he only can speak from a standpoint of grace, or
forgiveness.
00:10:12
Could he ever even come to understand the depth of his orneriness. I
hope we will come to understand the depth our orneriness this morning, I
don't know if Lillian read to you in her beautiful manner, Mr. Gordon Parks,
did she read anything from Mr. Gordon Parks?
00:10:32
Okay. One of the best ways of talking about racism I don't even call it a
definition. I don't think there is a definition there's only a style of life when
we talk about racism. But he said “What I want/what I am/what you forced
me to be/is what you are.” Did you get that?
2
This suggests Reverend Robinson was President of The Way, a Black community center in North
Minneapolis.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 4
“What I want/what I am/what you forced me to be/is what you are.
For I am you, staring back from a mirror of poverty and despair, of revolt and
freedom. Look at me and know that to destroy me is to destroy yourself. You
are weary of the long hot summers. I am tired of the long hungered winters. We
are not so far apart as it might seem. There is something about both of us that
goes deeper than blood or black and white. It is our common search for a better
life, a better world.
I marched now over the same ground you once marched. I fight for the same
things you still fight for. My children's needs are the same as your children's. I,
Too, am America. America is me. It gives me the only life I know, so I must share
it in its survival. Look at me. Listen to me. Try to understand my struggle against
your racism. There is yet a chance for us to live in peace beneath these Restless
skies.”3
00:12:07
Surprisingly enough, the editorial in March 8th of Life Magazine when it
was reviewing the Kerner Report4 had a very interesting article. I’ll just
quote briefly from it.
“What the Kerner report accomplishes ultimately is the destruction of a litany of
comfortable assumptions long-held by white Americans--namely that bigotry is an
exclusively Southern infection; that Negroes have been held down by poverty not
racism; that hard work and good luck will bring success for anyone; that some
outside force is responsible for urban uprisings; that Negroes have the same
opportunities as other American minorities; and most basic of all, the report
questions the assumption that we are fundamentally a decent and humane
people.”5
00:13:09
I don't know how much theology and if you have read. But since we're
talking about the church and bigotry, I want to turn to a particular
theologian his name is Reinhold Niebuhr, to give a sense of presence on
what we're trying to talk about today, because I know once the questions
come in there beautiful way will become very specific and we'll lose sight
of some of these kind of insights. But so I shared them now. Niebuhr wrote
many years ago:
Gordon Parks, “A Harlem Family.” Life Magazine, March 8, 1968.
A 1967 report published by The National Advisory Commission on Civil Disorders, named for its chair,
Illinois Governor Otto Kerner, Jr.
5
Donald Jackson, “Racism, Not Poverty, or Cynicism, Caused the Riots” Life Magazine, March 8, 1968.
3
4
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 5
“There are times when the sins of the fathers are visited upon the children and
new social forces rise up as the ‘Vengeance of the Lord’ against traditional
injustice. We are living in such a time. This is a period of judgment in which the
structures and systems of community which once guaranteed a tolerable justice
have themselves become the source of confusion and injustice.”6
00:14:11
He has a whole section in some of his writings called “The confusions of
an inadequate culture.” Our culture is inadequate because we have never
appropriated the black experience and what that is meant. And till we do,
we are going to have a culture that is going to be less than what it can be.
Part of the problem of the crisis of our times, as Mr. Niebuhr points out, is
that every culture which is the spirit of a civilization always confuses its,
it's, it's own way of life to be eternal truths. And so, during a time of
cultural crisis that we live in, life comes to, very close to meaninglessness,
because the ideas that a culture once regarded as eternal are actually
being destroyed in the crisis.
00:15:21
And of course, this is further compounded because the illusions which
were thought to be eternal, in the heavens somewhere, are the ones that
are being questioned. that which is not to be questioned is questioned. It
is clearly that we have inherited from our parents, and we ourselves are
falling trapped, to the same kind of historical optimism of our culture. I
don't care where you ideologically stand, I think it's awfully hard to
transcend what that means. The historical optimistism failed to measure
the full dimension of the human spirit and its historical achievements. It
never radically took seriously the matter of human freedom. And so the air
and illusions of white culture, and so racism is that, we have thought either
by education, or by evolution, as the soft utopians would have it, that we
would have, we would overcome the difficulties of human life.
00:16:27
It's very clear that this was an understatement and underestimation of the
difficulties of relating life to life, will - will, interest to interests. We have too
often regarded the achievement of justice and social peace and human
society as a an easy task. Our parents didn't do it, but we will. It is, as a
matter of fact, a very difficult task which can be accomplished with
tolerable success only if its difficulties are fully recognized.
Niebuhr, Reinhold and Ronald H. Stone, ed. Faith and Politics: A Commentary on Religious, Social, and
Political Thought in a Technological Age. Braziller, 1968, page 106.
6
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 6
00:17:10
[John Benson] Thank you very much. Let, let us entertain questions from,
from you. Immediately I can start over here.
00:17:28
[inaudible question from the audience]
00:17:32
[John Benson?] Do what?
0017:33
[audience member clarifies question inaudibly]
00:17:36
[John Benson] The question is: what are some of the specific things that
the church can do to combat bigotry? Pastor Evans.
00:17:48
[Pastor Evans] I think we have to come back, maybe first of all, and say
I'm not the guy to ask this. I think the point of our saying “we're now going
to come and help, and by doing this, resolve our racism,” is maybe the
wrong streak. I think the point is perhaps to ask the Black community, you
know, “how can we help?” Or, “what can we do?” In a sense, for you to
ask me, it's somewhat like the blind, you know, leading the blind. and I
admit that I do think there are some things we have to straighten out in
terms of the basic position of the church, its theological and biblical
understanding of man.
00:18:44
I think the the hang-up with--the American way of life, for many people, is
synonymous with Christianity, and the measure of a man in that context, is
according to how he produces. “I am worthy because I produce.” And if
you meet two men, and one's a doctor and the other is a garbage
collector, you make some kind of status, you know, symbolism in your
mind in terms of the worth of these two people. And yet, I think, biblically
and theologically, I am worthy not because of what I produce or because
I'm a good guy, because I do nice things, but because I exist.
00:19:26
I think that's maybe one place to begin, is to understand, you know, the
basic position of the church in terms of its anthropology and its
understanding of people. And, granted, there are many things we can do,
but I think it begins with a kind of introspection. And I recognize that it's
kind of fun, you know, to examine your intestines for a while, and you
could get all caught up in that too, but I think it's a place where we have to
begin. Not simply in order to rearrange our racism, which I think we often
do, and very comfortably hide behind walls that we build and behalf of
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 7
human relations, which are really walls were we're hiding behind, but to
somehow become very honest as a human being to recognize our hubris
and maybe to take seriously, you know, I think the theological position of
the church.
00:20:30
And then, maybe it's interesting to come back to the theological positions
in terms of the doctrine of man and maybe secondly the doctrine of the
Incarnation, really the emptying of ourselves and identifying ourselves,
you know, with others. But I think we really can't do that until we take, you
know, this careful and honest look at ourselves, in relationship maybe to a
document like The Kerner Report. And I think that's where we begin. In
discussion groups, in in a kind of maybe it's an honest kind of confession,
that this isn't something that we simply get rid of, but we learn to maybe to
gradually overcome.
00:21:15
Now, there's a ditch on that side of the road, where you become so
introspective that, you know, you never get any farther. I think you live in
that kind of tension and maybe this is what life is all about. And the other
aspect, I think, is to somehow lose yourself in the involvement--the phrase
“now is where the action is” and that might be in a white community as
much as the black community. And to lose yourself and you know in a
whole variety of little things that can't be programmed. I think you have to
gain this kind of sensitivity and that's the big freeze it seems these days
there are all kinds of sensitivity trainings. Some do it for an understanding
of the self, some have to do with behavior, some have to do with group
dynamics but maybe to begin there.
00:22:14
And then the final thing. I think a lot of people say before I know what I
want to do, I want to make sure just you know how this is going to happen,
I want it to be a safe kind of involvement and I think you kind of throw
yourself into the breach and and with some faith, which I hope is still a
theological word. You cannot dump yourself in and commit yourself to
involvement that is not programmed for you by anybody, but as you're
sensitized I think you begin to find where these places are, who these
people are, that that need the kind of relationship with you and maybe
much more you need the relationship with them and and you kind of grow
together in understanding.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 8
00:22:55
I don't think it's a big massive program, but it's it's little people doing
terrible things, and sparked not by some proclamation from the mayor or a
pastor, but maybe the Holy Spirit still moves people into these kinds of
positions and the program that maybe is was to kill it. Rollie, why don't you
clarify? [he chuckles].
00:23:20
[Pastor Robinson] Out of my own personal reflection--you asked the
question “what can specifically the church do?”--I think one is that we're
going to have to understand very clearly that the source of power is from
the standpoint of community, not individuals concerned. If you are going
from that standpoint, you're going to get knifed, and killed, and you're
gonna die. Well that's fine, that may be a place where you want to put
yourself in I--don't mean die in the funeral taker sense, but just you sort of
die out, wilt out. I think it's very clear that at any time that there have been
even any movements in this country, movements, communities, always
come from the black community.
00:24:01
The time now has arrived. I believe that, and I think you understand much
better than an older generation will ,and that is that community is
extremely crucial. That is a source of power. The day of individualism is
gone. If you've got to be to more than one meeting in one night, that's just
a very clear kind of example. The sign of the times that individualism is
dead. Now community--what what does that mean? It means that some of
you're going to have to covenant together and are going to have to hold
one another accountable in other words keep one another honest and also
sustain and support one another in this struggle now you got to
understand this is no longer an extracurricular activity this is for keeps it's
a whole lifetime venture.
00:24:53
And if you think it's anything less than you, indeed have not passed the
Red Sea and you want to go back with the pharaoh. And I think it's very
clear that that you're going to have to covenant in some form however you
decide that is to be and say we choose we're not only chosen but we
choose to be these kind of people who are going to stand over against
white racism wherever it occurs within people and institutions and so forth
we just dedicate our lives and we will then work out strategies and tactics
to get on top of whatever that means. Now, there have been some efforts
in this line, and some of you may already know about it, there have been
created what we call “civilizing communities” throughout the metropolitan
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 9
area for white people to work not in black ghettos so to speak but in terms
of white ghettos, and this kind of task is having some success.
00:25:42
Well, you see the problem with most of us is that we want to organize. You
cannot organize a community, that's a misnomer. We set up our little
Newtonian kind of models, you know, there's a box up here, then we got
those subcommittees, and sub-subcommittees, and what you do is you
define out of existence even before you start any sense of movement.
You've killed it all. We don't live in a Newtonian world anymore, but an
Einsteinian world, and if you don't believe me--you're all of your lives are
like an exploding star, and I have to do a spin point on all the points of that
exploding star. All your involvement and somewhere in the center, you
are. Because you may try to find where that center is.
00:26:25
The community's got the same kind of model, and the only way you're
going to hold together all those kinds of involvements, and make them
significant, with any kind of power, you're going to have to have a sense of
community that says “who says you could be involved in such and such?”
“Well, I said I'm going to be involved in such and such.” Well, that's still
sense that you count more than any sense of community. I think we have
to enter into families that thing. Also, if you're looking for specifics
regarding the church, the Friendship Press has now published a study
action booklet, some of you may know about it, in terms for for small
groups that outline some action that can be done as far as church of
concern.
00:27:08
Richard Niebuhr had a very penetrating thing to say, years ago, when he
said the church is a social pioneer. And as a social pioneer, it first has to
exercise and cast out the demons within itself. One, the demon of racism
and discrimination, wherever it occurs in the church. And until it does that
it cannot with any honesty turn on society and exorcise society. I'm part of
a Methodist Church that has been segregated for many years. And we
have over a million Black Christians in the Methodist Church that have
always been part of a sort of a church within a church. And the Methodists
have not taken this seriously enough. And I'm sure other churches have
not either, but this is one of the roles that that I think as a church--I use a
word “exorcism,” casting out demons now maybe you feel you don't like to
call racism a demon, maybe you like to call it a social problem, but
whatever terminology you like--to lock onto it this is the kind of role and
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 10
that means just as Christ exorcised demons was that, you are the new
man, you are the new woman. And because of that, you stand over
against all those kinds of forms of discrimination, forms of bigotry, that
appear in yourself appear in others.
00:28:29
[John Benson] Another question over here.
00:28:33
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:29:19
[John Benson] The question has to do with the problem of apathy in the
church. The example is given of a special meeting in the Methodist
Church of three hundred members and eight showed up. And, as I take it,
those that did couldn't understand what the problem was. Who would like
to speak? [Both panelists speak at once and the audience laughs] Let the
Methodist speak first.
00:29:45
[Pastor Evans] Oh I just had a comment.
00:29:47
[John Benson] He should really answer this. This would never happen in a
Lutheran church because there would be six people instead of eight! [the
audience laughs]
00:30:00
[Pastor Robinson] Let's be aware of so we don't fall into an idealistic bag.
Sartre says there's only really three bags you can operate out of: one as
an idealistic bag and a second as a materialistic bag. And if you're
deprived of idealism and materialism then the only other bag you have is a
revolutionary bag. And sometimes idealists think that they're
revolutionaries. I state that because a revolutionary would understand that
he would not be surprised by that kind of turn out. I think the revolutionary
is not concerned by talking to huge gobs of people and convincing them
by his oratorical skills. He's a man who works in the shadows, and I think
there are Christians who have to work in the shadows and work in terms
of their local congregation.
00:31:02
If this--I think that there's a hidden remnant in every congregation, I'm
sure. Be it eight Methodists, or sixteen Lutheran's, or whatever it is. And I
think I think we have to be aware that one we do not fall into despair. You
see, the problem with idealism when he gets frustrated it falls into despair
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 11
or you can even be a realist and you get pushed that too far and you
become a cynic.
00:31:30
Be aware of your own deep sense of alienation. Be aware of that. In that
sense you share something very deep, as young adults, and as students,
with the black community, with black people. I think it's very easy to fall
into that kind of despair. Now, don't be overly shocked when that happens.
We’ve got to understand that history oftentimes catches people up. Yaweh
didn't come down to these people and say “I got a ten point program for
you [audience laughs] and if you agree to my ten points, I'll get you out!”
00:32:09
Undoubtedly, all of the--many people got caught up in the historical
moment and they they moved out. They were just tired of laying down
bricks. And I think that in that sense a lot of them, for all kinds of reasons,
joined. I think the thing is you have to understand that there will only be a
few who will really become part as I said earlier a community, but from
there you can find many kinds of allies. People who say “well, you know,
white people are decent people,” and so forth. And they'll join you in some
tasks. Well you take that very seriously and swing with that and
accomplish the kind of tolerable justice that has to be accomplished.
00:32:48
And not be overly concerned by your successes and failures. In fact, no
longer will you mark your life by that kind of pattern. Because you--if you
did that, then Christ would be an utter failure. I think that our stance as
Christians in this struggle is a victim/victor stance. You can play the victim,
but you always know the victory is already won. In other words, you can
throw and thrust your life anywhere you so choose, even be used if
necessary, because you stand, and the resources that inform your life are
much deeper than that particular moment.
00:33:32
[John Benson]Joining us just now is Reverend Orpheus Williams from the
Grace Immanuel Baptist Church. Now, if you look in your bulletin I'm sorry
that they put you on as a Lutheran. [audience laughs] Since, since you
come after our discussion has started, perhaps the best thing to do would
be to try and direct one or more of your questions to Pastor Williams.
00:33:39
[inaudible question from the audience]
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 12
00:34:38
[John Benson] The question is a complicated one. What I think she's trying
to get at the problem of integration or separation, how this would be
spelled out in the church. That is, separation meaning that the Black
community tries to draw on resources from within itself to increase its self
understanding, self-awareness, pride in self and so on. And, in general,
how this can be aided by the churches, is this…?
00:35:12
[inaudible response from the audience]
00:35:14
[John Benson]...and how it can be resolved. Inside of let's, say the black
churches?
00:35:26
[inaudible response from the audience]
00:35:30
[John Benson asks Reverend Williams something inaudible]
00:35:12
Well, I hear, what I really, I hear what she’s saying but I don't understand
really the problem that she trying to address. Could you make it just a little
bit simpler where really I can understand, see I hear about four different
questions. [he laughs] So I'm trying to understand [inaudible]
00:35:58
[audience member begins asking a question inaudibly]
00:36:09
[John Benson] Maybe I can just bring this over to you. [sound of the
microphone being moved]
00:36:12
[Audience member] It seems to me lately that there’s been an increased
emphasis in developing the Negro’s pride in his own race and his own
history, which of course is needed. And it seems to me this would cause a
conflict around, between this and what we've emphasized before. That is,
integration into the white community. And, I'm not sure which should be
our goal, because it seems to me that the emphasis is on the pride within
the Negro race. There has to be some kind of equilibrium between the
white community and the pride in the Negro community. And this would, I
think that causes conflict. In other words, should it be a development
toward integration, or should have been a development in toward pride of
the Negro of being themselves?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 13
00:37:09
[Pastor Williams] I really, I feel that if the Negro really knows the exact
disabilities where he came from, it would make it easier to work with him.
Truthfully, this is my feeling. After all, you must bear in your mind that you
would take just to look at yourself and say “what do I want of life?” So the
Negro, he takes a look at himself, says “what do we want?” We talk about
equal opportunities, three qualities I think again, that maybe you're
speaking somewhere in terms of--when you say integration, intermarriage,
and so forth if I'm hearing you're right. That's, that’s the term that you was
slightly speaking on again. I’ve said that, often I’ve stated that what God
joined together let not man put asunder.
00:38:15
What I'm trying to say, if this is what the two individuals want, then good
luck! Always you have to bear in your mind go back into your history. The
Bible teaches from one blood come all, so when it all winds up we're still
brothers and sisters whether it's accepted or not. I believe in human rights
and this would be “do unto others what you would have done to you.” This
is a human right. Whatever you would like to be done to you in any race.
This also applies to the Black man. He likes that too. You like to be able to
live wherever you choose? So does the Black man.
00:39:08
You wouldn't want him to come out in your community shooting, so he
don't want it here. Because we are all human beings, you may not accept
it, but we are all brothers and sisters and we think somewhat alike we
don't think alike but somewhat alike. Because again the system of
teaching wasn't exactly alike. All our lives we have learned that we must
understand you in order to survive. You didn't have to understand us to
survive, therefore we really now understand, you should try to understand
that.
00:39:46
And working together, all of us for one color I think will solve the problem.
Look at you saying “what do you want to do?” “What can you do?” And,
“What will you do?” Do you really believe that’s what you're trying to do?
Sometimes you do things, you don't do it because you believe it. You do it
cause he did it or she did it. But within yourself, examine yourself, be fair
to yourself. And whatever you attempt to do be fair. And I think people will
solve the problem. Did that answer your question?
00:40:30
[Pastor Evans] I think one of the things that you said alluded to the fact
that integration means an integration into a white society. This is not
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 14
integration. This is assimilation. And I don't think the Black community
wants this. And if you'll hit me on the head for 200 years, I probably don't
want to become like you. And I think again this is one of the healthy
tensions within the whole human relations struggle now is a tension
between separate but equal and integration. I think we have to understand
that the Black man is caught up in this tension too. I think this is positive
and it's healthy but we here again we can't judge this, we can't condemn
this, we have to accept this. Again, it's a climate that we have created, and
I think we have to understand the meaning of integration and recognize
that this is this is not assimilation into you know our society.
00:41:29
I think too often we assume that that's what what integration really means
and “I don't want to lose my culture at the expense of someone else.” And
I think that's it's an equal feeling of any people. I think the the the cry now
is that for you know equality, and a kind of sameness, but the the chance
to assert oneself as a person as a culture and as a race. Although I think
that word is probably obsolete also. There’s a human race and maybe
that’s it. But this the understanding and the hang-ups I think that we still
have the idea of the word, the concept of integration means different
things to different people.
00:42:19
I think, here again, to read, to study, to understand, what some of these
phrases mean that touch off again, the racism that we have. Integration,
black power, interracial marriage, has been mentioned it automatically
keys some of the deep feelings that we have we like to pretend that we
don't have but they're there and they come out and define for us a lot of
these phrases that we kind of kick around without understanding what
they really mean for us into the rest of society.
00:43:03
[inaudible question from the audience]
00:43:39
[Pastor Robinson] Let me rephrase the question. The question is how
does a white minister feel when you prepare a sermon on love and
brotherhood and justice to a congregation, I assume, of white people. And
they nod their heads and you smile at them and they smile back and they
shake your hands and then you go home and then on their way home they
see a black man they say they're getting closer? Does that capture what
you?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 15
00:44:11
I have the same sense of phony, of phoniness that you have. I think that
I'm in a congregation that has been going through confrontation between
two cultures for about ten years now, and I know there have undoubtedly
been a lot of words said from the pulpit in that congregation, including by
myself, that may have been pretty phony. Or, no matter how it may have
been said, it's been received in that in a limited kind of way. I think
however when a congregation that I serve is living where it is and affecting
it, at this moment, God has all kinds of ways of communicating some very
deep things. In God's troubling I guess there is more mercy than
judgment. But what I'm trying to say is is that I usually never have a frontal
attack on the problem of race and really, really hit it obliquely and
indirectly.
00:45:31
And I find that there may be several Sundays nothing is said and some of
the people comment “I wish you would quit talking about the race problem,
you know there's some of the black people who come here and they don't
want to hear about that they they they don't want to hear.” Well, of course I
go talk to my Black brothers and they “we should say a little bit more.” I
say that, as a minister, you are entrusted to speak a word and that word
brings freedom, but we've got to understand as well that that word may not
be received, and doubtedly it has not been received.
00:46:18
However, I find that if God gets frustrated in one way, he has a beautiful
way as a Black man, years ago talked about how God confronts man in
the Adam and Eve story. This was a black man hearing this story. He was
saying that after Adam and Even fall, you know they cover their fronts,
with with fig leaves, you know, covering, but God comes up from behind!
[the audience laughs] Never underestimate God. God shall even use the
wrath of man to praise him.
00:46:54
[John Benson] I'd like to direct a question to Pastor Williams that is: do you
think that Christianity is really a religion for the Black community? Do you
do you think that--Malcolm X used to say that when he began to gain
respect for his Blackness he also decided he was going to abandon the
white man's religion. Do you feel that Christianity is so much of a white
man's religion that it cannot be a real part of the new self-understanding of
the Negro?
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 16
00:47:42
[Pastor Williams] I feel that Christianity this day and the way it has been
for 460 years should die. And a new Christianity should come. You cannot
tell me that the church has done its job or that Christianity has been totally
as it should, and find too much hatred. You cannot, I can’t buy that. So I
think really it's got to be a change in somewhere. I won't say that the way
it's have been talked through the 400 years was altogether wrong, but it
was something that they forgot to teach.
00:48:23
And they should teach that something. You look at Christianity.
Christianity is the people of the church, I don't know--I'm always a little
hard against that because they are supposed to be Christ’s followers, and
they are so quick to say “this don't concern me.” Now, this is not what I call
Christianity. Whether it is in your door, in your block, or whether it's five
thousand of five hundred miles away. If injustice is being done, it involves
all Christians, all priests, and all people.
00:48:58
So I think really Christianity has been whitewashed and watered-down, to
make a long story short. It’s the way I think. It's been--too much water put
in, you know how they put water in something to make it more--Christianity
having watered down. It's not the type that Christ talked about. And I
would say we'd all go back to the type of Christianity I once--I won't use
that word again--Christ’s followers, go back and begin to follow Christ the
way he taught. It’d be a better world well after tomorrow. Does that answer
your question?
00:49:40
[audience member] I'd like to direct my question to the Methodist minister.
You talk about community and how individualism is dead, and you say that
it has to be done now through the community. Well, I mean when you say
community [inaudible] community involves individuals who decided, you
know, to act in the same way today. Prime example, the word of the loving
mother church. And like, this summer I was in Jersey City, and they had a
Norwegian church, Lutheran Church, in a changing neighborhood, it is a
neighborhood starting to change. They thought “oh, well, we’ll be nice and
wonderful, you know, allow these Negroes to come into our church, our
wonderful church, and so they did this. It got to be that the Negroes are
now up to 70% and the old Norwegians, they couldn’t understand this. So
you know what kind of community action is this? We're a community and
we all should live and love together and work together. You know, if
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 17
individuals don't accept other individuals as on the same ground that “here
we are a group of individuals and we all are doing this.”
00:50:56
Like, another example: you come into a church as a stranger, and you say
“oh, we're the church,” and then “we're glad to have you here.” And you
get a thank-you note back from them for attending their church, and you
got the coldest reception from the people who attended this church! And
you wonder “that's a church, they've totally failed.” The church that says
“we're a community of loving, you--we welcome you to our services as a
visitor. And they don’t, the people themselves you know. What's gone
wrong? Where is your community? Then then the individuals haven't
driven to belong, partake, and given themselves, to the community, to the
stranger as they come into their community.
00:51:39
[Pastor Robinson] I don’t see any other Methodist ministers onto the table,
so [the audience laughs]. It’s strange that a Methodism--Methodist
minister would address himself in the question of community, with our
heightened sense of individualism. Christianity has never been, it is it has
never been one for individualism. Personal--for persons, yes, but not for
individuals. If you only stand for individuals, then somehow you just knock
out what church is. When you're baptized, you immediately become part of
a body, and you are always part of that body no matter where you go.
00:52:15
In that sense, there's a community. As a, even outside of the church, one
of the encounters that we--even today, we, we’re, you're having people
here, Black people here primarily, not because you're particularly
interested in them as a person, but because they are Black people. And
this is the time that--
00:52:37
[The audience member begins to speak]
00:52:39
Okay, let me finish my point, and that is that we have to be aware that, in
this time, we're meeting one another as groups, and not as individuals in
one sense. But going back to community and individualism, I mean to say
that there--for me and Christianity, there's no such thing as individualism.
Part of persons, part of the community, great. You're not satisfied.
00:53:06
[Audience member] Not quite. You mentioned the body, and you say that,
you know, you're in a body. Well how come there's so many lame dead
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 18
cells in the body, is what I want to know. [Pastor Robinson laughs] They
welcome you in, you know. The church and the unit can say “we will do
this,” but the congregation will say “well, the church says we have to do it
therefore we have to do it.” And “we're doing it because the church says
we have to do it. [a panelist and the audience member each says
something inaudible] I know what I mean uh, I just can't say it. The church,
like, the church council says we will have an integration Sunday, or we will
have a building fund, and we can hear this thing going on at Holy
Community. They have a building fund and they're going to build high-rise
towers over there for the old folks and you know the whole church has
decided on this.
00:54:03
But you always get this one faction that says well we'll do it all right
because we have to do it there's no excuse, no way to get out of it. It's just
a general coldness you get from the church that says, you know,
“welcome! Glad to see you!” And everybody in the church really couldn't
give a care whether you’re there or you’re not. Oh, hey…”
00:58:27
[Pastor Robinson] Are you ever cold with anyone?
00:59:30
[Audience member] Me? Oh, I imagine.
00:54:29
[Pastor Robinson] So, yeah there's coldness in the church. There's the
sense of duty that is misplaced servanthood. They're all those kinds of
things. If a Methodist--may I, I'd like to quote from Martin Luther about our
kind of alienation and since we have about the church maybe. The church
is a whore, but she's my mother. Remember, Martin Luther? [the audience
laughs and claps]
00:55:03
[Pastor Evans] I respond to a previous assertion and that is that the
people you meet in church on Sunday or or the Church Council this is this
is not necessarily synonymous with the body of Christ which is invisible.
And I think we get caught up with the idea that the people you meet the
church on Sunday and, you know, “this is the body.” This is not
necessarily so. I mean coming into the building, this doesn't make you a
member of the body or a Christian any more than going in a hen house
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 19
makes you to chicken. It doesn’t work that way. [laughter] And I think you
talked about-- that was said by John Wesley [loud laughter and applause]7
00:55:57
But I could say I could say the same thing about my reception here at
Augsburg. You have, you know, you have official hosts here who are
meant to be nice to the guests who come, and no one said “hello” to me or
greeted me. And this is this is society today. The rat race, you know,
existence that--I don't think it's a desire on the part of you not wanting to
meet me or people in church not wanting to meet you, but this is a kind of
the unfortunate game we’re involved in now, and and it's very unchristian
really.
00:56:40
[Audience member] Well this can be directed to Reverend Williams as
well. The example that I want to bring up has to do with a Black person
being white church and that we have people in our church that--we had a
Nergo family coming in and they were in the church, and some people just
thought the world of them because there are really wonderful people. But
there were others that, they would turn or they would stare, you know,
make snide remarks or something like this. And, later, when we had a
discussion about this the attitude of the people they’d say “No! We love
these people, you know. We, you know, we think they're really great!” And
all this and that. And they cannot see when they're doing anything wrong.
How do you combat people in the church that have this attitude and yet
they think that they are Christian, and they cannot see their thoughts as to
their attitudes in the way they react to different people?
00:57:44
[Pastor Williams] Well as, you all just said a while ago, everyone that's in
the church don't make them be a body of Christ. A lot of people can go to
the church can, as the Baptists teach, proclaim that they are following
Christ, but that don't make them be following Christ. I think really the best
way to combat that is to: you take your stand as a Christian. And, by you
taking your stand, see really whether you'll ever accept this and that a
Christian is nothing but like a tool for God anyway. So you take the stand
and, do your job, and encourage others. This is about the best way in that
this one [inaudible] we pray for them. I was taught prayer changes things. I
can say prayer brought us a long ways. I think this is why we were able to
7
John Wesley was the founder of Methodism, and Pastor Evans likely misquoted him as a
self-deprecating joke.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 20
come this far, through faith and prayer. So, you as an individual--just stand
as a Christian and encourage.
00:58:59
See, you really don't know the authority within your body, with Christ, until
you begin to use that. And I also said if you use what you got, sometimes
Christ will subsidize it and gives you a little more. [laughter] So this was
these one of the greatest things that you could do. Does that answer your
question? [he laughs]
00:59:17
[Pastor Evans] There's a word that Jesus makes very clear about loving
the enemy. And the enemy, boy I tell you, that that's a real difficult one
these days. Maybe your parents may be your enemies. And it may be
these white Christians that may be your enemies in this situation where,
for them, you know you are the enemy and the kind of threat that you
bring upon them. And I'm saying that you must love them and, as
Reverend Williams said, pray for them. Pray without ceasing.
01:00:08
There's a group of us from around the metropolitan area which have
organised an Interfaith Emergency Council that, if a human disaster blows,
the church can become present to that disaster. And some of us were
becoming extremely hung up with somebody, I don't know, some person.
But, it's very easy to harangue. You know with all the compassion that we
have, in ourselves and the rightness that's within ourselves, and at the
same--someone said “well, why don't you just pray for them?” Well, I think
the if you’ve ever had to pray for an enemy, I think then you're really
tasting something about what prayer means.
01:00:51
And I think that as one generation, they oversell a certain style of prayer
which we don't feel we can buy, there's you know I think Malcolm Boyd in
some way has caught for us what prayer is. And, in that sense, Malcolm
Boyd's book “Running With Me, Jesus” or “if Jesus I,” however it’s said
[another panelist says the correct title] “Are You Running With Me,
Jesus?” That is prayer without ceasing. He is running without ceasing, and
all the situations that confront one. I just say that in that situations that as
Reverend Williams said, that you take your stance, and I think sometimes
we think that we, out of our optimism, can manipulate and work around
conflict. No.
01:01:40
[John Benson] We have time for just one more question.
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 21
01:01:44
Maybe this isn't a fair question to ask, but I wonder what and you know we
come to the safe we ever could completely be integrated, what would this
be like? You know, I've heard some people say that it would be like white
people looking at the Negro indifferently as they look at at the way other
way people are and vis-versa. What--is this right?
01:02:08
[the audience laughs after a silence]
01:02:14,
[Pastor Williams] Seems like no one want this one, I don't know. Truthfully,
if we would ever be integrated in love I would say it would be a happy
world, but integrated because society says so, we would still be in trouble
because that little chaos would still be there. But integrated in love,
integrated in love, then everybody would be happy. I doubt that will
happen in my lifetime but hope in some way that--you known as we said,
ah Christians I can't understand again. I'd like to look at everyone as a
human being and I like to look and see a little part of Christ and every
every human being.
01:03:05
And I would like to feel that Christianity, I should say religion, is not
segregated. It's a little part of Christ I would like to see in all of us. I also
remember the book “God is Dead,” and, when I see our confusions,
injustice, I said this is when God died, in that place. When I see love and
happiness, well there is God, he's alive. I think we'll be able to have a
beautiful world once everybody has integrated love and they heart, not
because Sarah’s done it, Jack does it, but because they have love within
their heart. It would be a happy world.
01:03:52
[John Benson] Did that answer your question?
01:03:58
[Pastor Evans] Here again, a definition of what is integration, I think we
usually see this as racial. I think, for me the racial bit is not half as--
[The original tape cuts off]
Christianity and Bigotry (morning session) (transcript), page 22
Show less
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0124b
Description: Reverend Robert Evans, Revered Orpheus Williams, and Ron Welch of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in an afternoon panel mod... Show more
Transcript of “Christianity and Bigotry”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0124b
Description: Reverend Robert Evans, Revered Orpheus Williams, and Ron Welch of
Minneapolis discuss issues of religion and race in an afternoon panel moderated by Dr.
John Benson. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of
racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:53:53
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[The recording cuts in as John Benson is speaking]--you are moving up to
fill up the front chairs. I will introduce our panel this afternoon discussing
“Christianity and Bigotry.” [inaudible conversation from the audience]
Okay.
00:00:24
On my left is Mr. Ron Welch from the Southside Way, is that what you call
it? [Inaudible] To my immediate right, is the Reverend Orpheus Williams
from Grace Immanuel Baptist Church, not Lutheran as you have indicated
in the program. [audience laughs] We apologize a second time for doing it
twice. And the far right, Reverend Robert Evans, the American Lutheran
Church--Prince of Glory Lutheran Church, both of the latter two men serve
churches on the Northside, near Northside.
00:01:16
The morning session we began by having short statements by the group,
but I think perhaps we'll dispense with that this afternoon and move
directly into questions from you, now this will be the format. We will
entertain any question that you have related to our topic--people related to
the topic somehow. We're interested especially in the church, what the
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 1
churches have done to encourage racism, bigotry, what they can do about
it, what the Black community thinks of white churches, anything that you
would like to hear these men discuss.
00:02:00
[Audience member] Yes I'd like to ask Reverend Williams if he feels that
the history of the Black church, it's history has in any way helped to
decrease the dignity of Black people. Has it fostered with this attitude in
some ways the white church has.
00:02:19
[John Benson] Just checking, could all of you hear that question?
Probably not. The question is has the Black church helped decrease the
sense of dignity of Negro people? Decrease.
00:02:33
[Reverend Williams] I would like to say, I just want to say that Black
church really has been all that the Black man could lean on to keep and to
hold up his dignity, although the Black church has not been what it should
be instead of not, but this is what has brought us thus far. We have always
been taught to look up and not around us, therefore, we have looked up
and by looking up we could lift our heads and say as, I would say Christ
taught us.
00:03:22
[Augsburg President Oscar Anderson, asking from the audience] What is
the feeling now with respect to the Black church, do they want to remain
as Black congregations stronger and better, or is the desire for integration
among the Christian members of the church?
00:03:41
[Reverend Williams] Really I don't believe in a such thing has a Black
church, no way, I would like to rephrase that to God's church. And God's
church could be made up out of many different colors. It's like a flower,
various beautiful flowers, all mixed up in one beautiful bouquet of flowers. I
think when you speak of God's church and not a Black church, I think this
is what's really wrong with speaking in terms of Black churches and a
white church but we ought to speak in terms of God's church, because we
are Christ's followers, or Christians that we're supposed to be then we
would say God's church. At Grace Emmanuel, I welcome everyone.
Whosoever will, let them come, and often I'll tell them this is not my
church, this is God's church. I think this is the attitude that all churches
should take.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 2
00:04:38
[Audience Member] I'd like to ask Mr. Welch if he thinks that the church,
organizational church, still has, could be effective in the whole movement,
and if so how or is it too late?
00:04:49
[John Benson] The question is can the institutional church be effective in-what kind of movement?
00:04:57
Well, the whole issue [Inaudible].
00:05:01
[John Benson] The whole racial issue.
00:05:06
[Ron Welch] I'll answer that by saying who I am. I was a Catholic priest for
five years until last summer. And I quit for the reason, the answer that I'll
give to your question. I think some-somewhere along the line the
organizational church might wake up and realize what it's supposed to do.
I would say it's too steeped in money. It's too steep with material criteria.
It's too steeped in buildings to be able to make the significant change that
it has to make to meet the needs today. Now if they're willing to give over
what they have in great quantities to the people who have some ideas as
to what might be done, without always having strings attached, I'd say
then we might get back to the very notion of church.
00:05:56
When church gets to be such a big business and such an organization as
it is today, be it Catholic, be it Episcopalian, be it Lutheran, anything else
it's no longer church. It's business, and I think when, in 313, the problem
began, with Constantine, where you had church and state. Where you
have power connected with church. I think there's an awful lot of power
that can and ought to be connected with the very notion of church if you
understand group dynamics. I think that you have to have church involved
with politics, but I think when church becomes an organization that
becomes an entity in itself, as it has now, and uses the power that it has to
lobby as it has and doesn't think about the people that it's serving; black,
white, red, whatever color you want.
00:06:39
I think that you've got a church which is not able to serve. And I think that
organized Christianity has been colonial, has been paternalistic, it's been
any of the--whatever you want to call it in terms of treating people, and it
has not thought about humanism it's thought about materials and if it gets
over the big basic notion of materialism that it has, these criteria which it
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 3
has used for its success symbols such as your school here or anything
else, you know, we build schools we got so many kids and all that sort of
thing, that's not religion. If it gets over that, then it can serve. But as I
started out by saying, it's so steeped in money, buildings, and quantity that
I question whether or not, in our day and age, in my generation, in your
generation, it's going to be able to make the significant change.
00:07:21
Last statement: I believe that if the changes take place in two ways: from
inside institutions and outside institutions, the church is an institution that
will not change from the inside, the only reason it will change is because
it's forced to change from the outside.
00:07:37
[Audience member] From this would it follow then, at the most effective
means for a person who considered himself a member of the church ie.
the body of Christ is to opt out of the institutional church?
00:07:44
[Ron Welch] The question is, then should a person who feels himself a
follower of Jesus Christ opt out of the organizational church? I can only
speak for myself and say that's what I decided to do. I can't tell someone
else that that's the best thing to do for them. If enough of us put pressure
from the outside, hopefully there's somebody inside who the guys at the
top will talk to. They don't want to lose face and talk to us, so they got to
talk to somebody inside and so it's like the Black man who stays in the
institution, because we on the outside or The Way or somebody else
pressure, somebody will finally talk to that man inside the institution.
00:08:17
They won't talk to us, that's embarrassing, so if there are people inside the
institution, who understand what's taking place in the world, then I say
fine, stay there. Because we'll fight like hell on the outside, you fight like
hell on the inside, but make sure you're ready and willing to put your job
on the line when that guy at the time asks you what should be done. Then
I'd say, okay, then you can serve a purpose too, but if you're
establishment minded, get the hell out.
00:08:41
[John Benson] Bob, what do you think about that?
00:08:46
[Reverend Evans] [Laughs] Well I decided to stay on the inside to fight it
out. I think speaking in relationship to the role of the church in a whole
area of human relations and racism, you know, there's a lovely phrase that
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 4
says we become agents of reconciliation. I really don't buy that, I assume
that to be in this position you have some ability in relationship to
communicate with both sites. I think white, as a Protestant church, we've
lost this relationship. I think they're perhaps isolated instances where this
is not true but in terms of the image, the Black man has the white church. I
don't think we have that trust relationship.
00:09:30
We have a lousy image, and I think, and perhaps sounds pessimistic, but
to me it's realistic that, at this point, we can in no way really serve that role
in terms of some kind of reconciling agent between the Black and the
white church or Black and white people. This gets into the area of racism
and this may come up and perhaps we ought to speak to it then, but I
think maybe we're paralyzed, but we're not dead, and hopefully the
combination of pressure from the inside and from the outside, some
exciting things could happen and I think are.
00:10:14
[Ron Welch] Jesus Christ said, If you want to live, you have to die.
Remember? All the way through his gospel, said if you want to live you
have to have the guts to die. He wasn't just talking about individuals, he
was also talking about institutions, and if the church wants to live, it has to
be willing to die for every generation, and for every big circumstantial
change in history. Sad to say that churches have not understood good
theology.
00:10:42
[Reverend Williams] [Exhales into the microphone, possibly indicating
irritation] Well, I can say that I have died one time, some say I really don’t
have to die [inaudible]. Really, I feel kind of like the old saying said with a
country boy, young minister come to the big city with a big, beautiful
church and he kept [inaudible] that church and he said, I sure would like to
get in there to preach. So he asked one of the officials that, ‘I've been
here,’ said ‘I've been here five years and I've never been able to get into
this church to preach.’ He said, ‘don't worry with the church been built 20
years and God hasn't been able to get either.’ [Laughter]
00:11:26
Remember if God can't get in the church they're gonna be problems
anyway. The big beautiful building with God left out, and God is important
so when we leave God out we got problems. So I advise you, when you
go to church, try to take a little part of God in there with you.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 5
00:11:52
[Audience member] There are some studies that show that--I don't want
the mic--there are some studies that show that there is racism in the
church, and that not only that there is racism in the church, but that the
church as an institution has very much been a part of promoting that
racism, and my question I guess is, you know, if we can legislate doctrines
[…]legal doctrines in the church, why can't we legally doctrinize the
priesthood of all believers and include all colors and all races, and all this
sort of thing.
00:12:36
I mean, it seems to me that we have all sorts of doctrines, but that doctrine
sort of should include this sort of thing but it doesn’t. And why can't we
force our white congregations into believing that doctrine as we, you know,
force them into believing all others.
00:12:59
[Reverend Evans] I think the documents all have been there just as the
Constitution of the United States has always been there offering justice
and equality to all people. The point is we don't practice it. I don't think we
need more doctrines, or even the clarification of the doctrine of man. I
think we simply have to live out what we supposedly believe, a question of
racism in the church. I don't think you have to do studies on this anymore
than to do it a study to determine if they're Eskimos living in Alaska. I think
it ought to be a basic assumption, and I don't even have to think you have
to believe at the point that racism has played a great part in the history of
the church in the United States.
00:13:54
Double kinds of baptisms that we had way back then were, we had two
orders of baptism. One for white one for black people because when you
talk about, you know, baptism, dying, and being born again and set free
you know you really have to be a little careful how you, in those days
explain this to non-white people. And I think the racism bit is done not in a
overt, even aware way today although that's present. I was at the Nicollet
Hotel and couple nights ago a guy was passing out tracts, supposedly in
behalf of human relations in the church, and it was it was poorly done in
the first place, but it said, you know, ‘we ought to be together’ and they
had a picture on each page and one was a white man giving a blood
transfusion to a Black man and all the way through it was a white man you
know helping this poor Black man.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 6
00:14:48
And really it was a racist tract under the guise of an attempt to talk about
human relations so it's there and it's in all of us. I think deeply ingrained,
and I think maybe it's the thorn in the flesh that we have to deal with daily.
We're saturated with the sense of superiority, and this is true in the
church, not because it's the church, but we're human beings in the church
and in spite of what we ought to believe we don’t, and I think there are a
lot of reasons why. I think the doctrines are sufficient now. We just don't
believe them. We don’t live them.
00:15:32
[Ron Welch] You used two words that really bothered me; legislate force.
You were talking about legislating doctrine and you were forcing people to
believe something let those--
00:15:42
[Audience member] --I mean by tradition, I mean, you know we aren't a
part of the church unless we're baptized. We're not a part of the church--
00:15:47
[Ron Wlech] Oh all right you want --
00:15:49
[Audience Member] That kind of traditional sense of legislation
00:15:51
[Ron Welch] Alright, but I think what you're getting onto is the basic
problem that would come up with in religion, which is when you start
theorizing that much on religion and you start figuring how many angels
can dance on the head of a needle all that sort of thing, you know. This is
when you get into the problem of what religion is or isn't.
00:16:07
Religion is a way of life and there probably are as many religions as there
are people, and yet people will come to some agreement and end up with
a movement such as Christianity, or Muslim, or whatever it might be
whatever it might be, but when you come down to legislating, and when
you come down to using that word ‘forcing’ something, those two words
right off the bat as I say, bespeaks something that I don't want any part of.
I'll never be part of an organized religion again. I'll be part of The Way. I'll
be part of the Black people's movement, despite the fact that I got a white
face, and as far as I'm concerned that's religion, but I'll never be part of a
religion that gets so defined that it does what you said.
00:16:48
Do I make any sense?
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 7
00:16:51
[Audience member] Yeah.
00:16:51
[Ron Welch] You know that's, as far as I'm concerned, what got religion
into the problem it's in right now, and how is it undefine itself. To fit in
society which is so complex, which has so many differentiations, so many
different circumstances, which is cybernetic, which is technological, go
right down the line it can't fit all those unless it's become so non-defined
and yet it has some basic goals about humanism and as Reverend
Williams said, when you go to church, bring God in the church, you know,
how do you bring God in the church? By understanding and believing what
you are or another person is, that's God. We put God way up here, we've
defined him, we've defined God's organization, quotation marks, and we
end up with a church which is all screwed up.
00:17:39
[Audience Member] Yes, I would like to direct this question to the
Reverend Evans. You mentioned earlier that you would rather stay in and
fight. I'm wondering if what happened to Bishop [James] Pike, Father
Malcolm Boyd and, to a lesser extent, Father Groppi would be any kind of
discouragement to the men of cloth, who really speak out against the
institutionalized [inaudible] in their stand.
00:18:11
[Reverend Evans] Repeat the question.
00:18:18
[John Benson] The question is directed to those, like Pastor Evans, who
have decided to stay within structure, the organizational church and fight
from there. The question is: isn't gonna rather discouraging thing, people
like this, to view what has happened to people like Malcolm Boyd, Father
Groppi in Milwaukee, and who else did you name?
00:18:40
[Audience member] Bishop Pike.
00:18:41
[John Benson] Bishop Pike.
00:18:41
[Pastor Evans] You could also add the name of Jesus Christ to that one
too, and maybe that's where things kind of fit together. I don't think we're
called to succeed or you know an easy way of life but they're called to lay
it on the line, and if we can't be honest and if we can't be open, then we
don't even have any business in the organized Church. I mean that's, I
think, the name of the ballgame.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 8
00:19:05
Whether in a church or in a human relations game, or whatever it is, if at
this point you're not, I mean this isn't a movement that will, you know, be
resolved in the next two, or ten, or fifty years. If you're going to commit
yourself to even the movement, in respect of the church, I think you have
to be ready to lay your life on the line, and if it's anything less than that,
then I would say, you know, you're really a phony. And these men only
remind us of the fact that this is a game, that that isn't a game, it's for
keeps. You bet your life, and that's it.
00:19:46
[John Benson] I feel like this question goes deeper, though, and asks
whether in your opinion, the institutional church is capable of doing
anything worthwhile here. That is, whether the suffering and giving of
oneself, and so on it you just described, really would be worth it for those
that stay inside the structure. As it--is the church really capable of doing
anything here?
00:20:17
[Reverend Evans] Well, I think only to the point that it recognizes power
that comes from beyond itself. I think we've lost this. The church has
become, in many cases, an institution, period. In and of itself, but I think
there's always the remnant, and I think this happens constantly in the life
of the church and we're seeing maybe an acceleration of that kind of
constant death and renewal that's taking place right now.
00:20:48
I don't know, but I don't worry too much about the institutional church. I
think as a guy who happens to be a Christian and involved in the church,
you know, you go out and you do your thing and that's it. You feel called to
do it. If you spend all of your time, you know, analyzing the institutional
church it's kind of fun, you know, to examine your intestines and you can
get all hung up in that too, but you forget about that, and you go out and
you be with, you'll think the church ought to be. And, you know, I'm not
gonna reform the church. I think you can become so, you know, paralyzed
with this little business that you will become totally inactive. and I think you
go about your work in and I see pockets and communities of people, in the
church, that I think are really being the church. I think this is exciting and I
see more of these people than I do the images that you mentioned and I
am not discouraged.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 9
00:21:52
I think it's a very encouraging thing to see, for the first time, people, you
know, talking very honestly about the institutional church. We used to talk
this way, but always in secret, now it's in the open, and I think that's
healthy.
00:21:10
[Ron Welch] I think the question comes down to whether the church is an
organization, an institution, or a movement. You read Eric Hoffer’s book,
The True Believer, and I don't know if you agree with Eric Hoffer, but I
think he at least defines the movement fairly well and I think he defines
Christianity as a movement that was, with emphasis on past tense.
00:22:29
Within Christianity, there've been certain people such as Agustin, or
Francis of Assisi, or Francis Xavier, Ignatius of Loyola, or Martin Luther, or
John Calvin, or other people who have taken this movement, the basic
rudiments of the movement and have gone off for another tangent, have
done something with it. And if that same thing can be done today, then I'll
agree that the institutional Church has something to offer, but then I would
guess that you're going to end up with something which looks completely
different from the institutional church, so what I'm saying is that if the
church is going to serve people, it's got to be a movement. I still don't see
that type of thing happening, and that's why I, myself, am very pessimistic
about it.
00:23:06
Until the church really dies, until people are really frustrated with the fact
that they don't have something more than just the material things that
we've got and I think we need more than that. Until they get to that point,
they aren't going to start a groundswell which is going to produce a
movement and I see as long as we've got clergymen with good salaries,
as long as we got the people who are supporting the clergymen having
enough to eat, you're not going to have a good solid movement within
Christianity.
00:23:36
[Audience Member] […]says in there how Pastor Evans has mentioned
that [inaudible] that he wasn't really too concerned about institutionalized
church, and yet at the same breath he says he's going to stay in there and
fight out. How can you fight something that you have already [inaudible]
just said? And also, you mentioned that everyone has the lay his life on
the line.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 10
00:24:01
I think every individual these three that I mentioned have, and they had
one big risk of being excommunicated, of big fired for heresy, and if you're
not too familiar with them three men [inaudible] Reverend William
Youngdahl, who despite all the cover-ups, was driven out of town because
of his aggressive stand on racism.
00:24:34
[John Benson] Bob, why don't you tell us something more about your
particular congregation and especially the way in which the, we say the
American Lutheran Church receives you. How do they look on your work
00:24:48
[an audience member, perhaps the person operating the microphone,
laughs]
00:24:51
I can't speak for the American Lutheran Church. I think my relationship is
with people in the public housing area in the north side of Minneapolis.
When I say ‘I don't, you know, care about institutional church,’ I don't have
time to get concerned about, you know, institutions and hierarchy and
anything like that. I feel I have a calling to serve people and I get involved
there. I just don't have the time and the energy. I think there are people in
the church who have more influence than I do to do that, but my thing is
working in an area of poverty and in a racially mixed area, and
congregation and I've come close, I suppose, at times of being chopped
down and I know some of the pressures and the lack of funds and all that,
that have happened. We're in a church where the Roman Catholic Church
checked out, and we took over, and recognize that we're there, called not
to success, but to faithfulness in a church that I think and in a society, I
think here we have to say if we have a sick church we also have a sick
society.
00:26:05
But you know, you don't check out a society today because it's sick, but
you can't jump out of your skin. You can out of the church, but I think
there's a similarity here too, that you hang with it because you're a part of
it and [...]
00:26:22
[John Benson] Is your congregation self-sustaining?
00:26:24
[Reverend Evans] No. No.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 11
00:26:25
[John Benson] You get money from the whole mission, Department of the
ALC?
00:26:27
[Reverend Evans] Right. And this is always subject to, you know, pulling
the rug out from under your feet and I think.
00:26:36
[John Benson] Are they trying to tell you what to do?
00:26:40
[Laughter]
00:26:43
[Pastor Evans] Well, in a way.
00:26:44
[Laughter]
00:26:46
[Pastor Evans] This doesn't bother me. I can fight them, but I think there's
some more, there's some very real challenges in the community that our
church has nothing to do with it.
00:26:55
[John Benson] Apparently though the church headquarters supports you
rather than opposing it, right? Otherwise, they wouldn't give you this
money.
00:27:05
[Pastor Evans] Yeah they do financially, but I've been in a meeting the last
two it two days in which our urban men are coming together and are in a
sense ready to the blow it wide open if they can, in terms of the whole
urban ministry of the church.
00:27:20
[John Benson] What do you mean blow it open?
00:27:22
[Reverend Evans] Well, the policy, the attitudes, the investments of the
church, many many things in which I feel, you know, they're just not being
realistic in relationship, you know, the life in America today. I would rather
see this a dialogue within the group. This is getting to be a duet rather
than a discussion unless you want to pursue it.
00:27:48
[John Benson] I could change the subject a little bit with a question to
Reverend Williams. Malcolm X used to say that, the same time that he
gained his respect for himself as a Black man, he left the white man's
religion behind. He was referring to his conversion to Elijah Muhammad's
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 12
Black Muslim religion. The question is raised sometimes, has Black
Christianity really sold out to the white man? Is it a kind of an ‘Uncle Tom’
institution, therefore unable to really provide the Black man the kind of self
respect and song that he needs?
00:28:54
[Reverend Williams] I must say that the majority of the books that the
Black churches have the white man was the author of the book. One of
the things that I've always said that you cannot destroy is that no part of
Christ, that soul, that’s within the spirit. Often, I've said you can destroy all
Bibles but then our men can teach Jesus and crucify those that have so
believed that. I believe in the supreme. I believe in the hereafter, but I
must say, although it breaks my heart to say it, but I must say it. We
cannot be serving the same God and have this much confusion. If there is,
then it’s taught differently than in the book, because I'm sure signifies the
some of the people are good so-called to be Christians.
00:29:51
Christians were taught to love one another so somewhere down the line
somebody slipped and fell or something, I don't know. But there's one
thing about it that, the little part of God that's in me that I believe in, it
covers [inaudible] it gives me strength in the determination although it
takes my life, you know, you can be alive and yet dead. You just a walking
around body, and when we're the Christians get where they don't stand up
with justice, will they be Black or white, they're dead. I couldn't believe that
the church pattern, the church system because the churches have not
stood up for justice and for rights the close ones they're then brought out,
or bribed, or scared out, to stand up, to speak out that made of other
people turn from the church. People need a little bit of church and get and
tried hard to help poor people.
00:31:03
The people that they so-called the unreachable. I don't believe in
unreachable. We all have problems. I was thinking what he just said, he
had pulled away from the church. I think, his effort, the job that you're
trying to do, is really done more than the church because he is trying to
help people who need help. And this is what I like to see the church
[inaudible], so I called him, Reverend of The Way church! [inaudibe
chatter and laughing].
00:31:34
[Ron Welch] Odds are backslapping.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 13
00:31:38
[Ron Welch ]I know Robert Williams, and he does an awful lot with the
people from The Way.
00:31:43
He and Syl Davis are very good friends, and Syl takes an awful lot of stock
in what Reverend Williams says. By the time Malcolm X was just about
killed, he had also pulled away from the Muslim religion for lots of reasons
which he alludes to in his book his autobiography, the Black Muslim
Religion.
00:32:02
I think Reverend Williams is an example of a man who is a follower of
Christ as he himself keeps referring to, and yet would not follow to the
generalization which we call Christianity. I would put him in, you know, he
follows Christ like he follows Gandhi, like he follows all sorts of other
people who had strong convictions about human beings and about God in
people. And so, in this sense, knowing Reverend Williams and the type of
work he does and he does stand pretty much alone in these towns, the
question that you directed to him I would say fits him and yet it doesn't fit
him, because I think he's a very unique Black clergyman in these times.
00:32:48
[Audience member] In your opting out of the church, maybe this is too
broad a question--I'm directing this to Ron Welsh--In your opting out of the
church, and maybe it is too broad a question, but what Christology have
you retained or could you wrap up your theology in just a few short
statements. I'm interested to see if, you know, what you're retaining in this
religion that you referred to as your individual religion.
00:33:14
[Ron Welsh] Christ was a radical revolutionary who understood group
dynamics and politics as well as, if not better than, Mahatma Gandhi and
Castro and Lenin and Stalin and lots of other people. Now I don't say that
he was working for the same things necessarily Stalin or some of these
guys working for, but Christ was basically a revolutionary. Christ basically
started a movement. And so when I talk about what I retain from in my
Christology, I say that Jesus Christ talked about the beauty of creation.
Jesus Christ was God incarnate. Now we can talk for the next twenty
years about what that means, but I'd like to think that Jesus Christ was a
person who demonstrated, by his own being what it meant to be beautiful,
what it meant to be a human being who wasn't afraid to look at life and live
it, and I'd like to think this is pretty much what I think of in terms of God,
what I think of in terms of Jesus Christ.
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 14
00:33:58
Now if you're gonna, if you want to ask me, do I believe that Jesus Christ
the son of God, yeah so am I. I don't know what he is more than I am. I
don't worry about it. When it comes down to the sacraments, and
everything else that you know, that you want to get into the Eucharist, I
say wait a second, the Eucharist, and Baptism, these are all group
dynamic methods that you've got to have in every good movement.
00:34:22
[Audience member] How about the doctrine of salvation?
00:34:22
[Ron Welch] Doctrine of salvation, I don't worry about it.
00:34:25
[Audience member] How come?
00:34:27
[Ron Welch] How come? I don't know, I just don't worry about it. I worry
about living, I'm terribly existential, I suppose. If there's a hereafter, I'm not
the least bit worried. I'm doing my best.
[00:34:44]
[Audience member] I think Bishop James Pike has more or less answered
this question. about salvation. I think he was preaching a kind of heaven
on earth, and for this very belief that he thinks is right, he was threatened
with a trial by the Church bureaucracy, and that is why I brought the
question. If, at all, a person can lay down his life for his beliefs, can he
successfully and realistically do it within the church confines? Recent
examples are very discouraging, I have to say.
00:35:30
[Orpheus Williams] You must bear in your mind that if we speak enough
Christians, but if we are really speaking of Christ’s followers, then we must
be willing to die for what we believe. I think every Christian must be willing
to stand up for justice and if it takes their life, then so what? You're better
off dead! We talk about heaven, we can't go [inaudibe] we must die
anyway so it's no wrong to die by what's right. I think this is a blessing to
be able to die for a good cause. And all Christians should be willing to die
for right, but make sure they right. It's no disgrace in dying for what you
believe in. I don't think so. The doctrine that I preach, I'm willing to die for
it. I'd rather be dead anyway. It can't be no worse than here. Even if
there’s no hereafter, it can't be no worse than here. So I would rather be
dead. I wouldn't have the problems that [inaudible]. Problems everyday,
my hair’s beginning to turn white, some problems--unjustice. Bruises from
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 15
being scorned, missing wheels, so I'm willing to die for what’s right, what I
believe in.
00:36:56
I believe in Christ, I believe in being a follower of Jesus Christ, and if
someone shoots me down, good.
00:37:10
[Ron Welch] I ain’t so willing to die, Reverend. [Reverend Williams laughs]
00:37:13
But I agree with what you're saying. Come back the salvation thing, which
you bring up, and which you bring up. You read Frantz Fanon's book on,
"The Wretched of the Earth," when you read C. Wright Mills or you read
anybody who tries to analyze again the dynamics of religion, you always
notice that religion or any good movement will always have something out
here to shoot for which is almost unattainable. And what Christianity did
after Jesus Christ, I don't think Jesus Christ did this because he worked
with the lepers, and he worked with the prostitutes, and he worked with
the pimps, and he worked with all the people in the streets and tried to
alleviate their sufferings now. But what Christianity did, when it sold out in
313, was it said, well, you'll get in the hereafter suffer now.
00:37:55
And I think this is what Pike was attacking, and I think this is what a lot of
the people today are trying to attack. And I don't think Pike denies the
possibility of the hereafter. I want to believe in the hereafter, whether or
not is there, I don't know. But I think what we've got to get down to is to
tear this whole business of Christianity, the Salvation pill or whatever you
want to call it, and get rid of that, And start working out what does it mean
to live according to the tenets of Jesus Christ or God [inaudible] any of
these people now. Then you've got the real notion of salvation then you're
saved. As Reverend William says, then you're alive. If you don't have that
you're dead anyhow, you'd be better off physically dead. If you don't have
that beam in your eye, you don't have something to live for now.
00:38:44
[Reverend Evans] I think we're talking here about a road with two ditches
on the side that are pretty close together. I think we've been hearing an
ethical, that Christianity is ethics. I think ethics are involved in Christianity,
they've been left out. A kind of humanitarianism which I can't be a part of
because I don't have the ability. I'm just not the kind of guy that can, of in
my own accord, find the kind of strength and power that I feel necessary. I
find this in Christianity. That's my crutch or my bag, you know, you accept
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 16
me like that and just as I accepted someone else in their position. But I,
you know, I come back to a doctrine of the word which I think the Roman
Catholic Church is finally coming back to, and I take my cue not from an
intellectual kind of interpretation that I have to society.
00:39:40
I think as a church we've been in the ditch on the other side of the road
where we, as a Black church, which really was in a sense the tool of the
white colonial people. You know, this is how you kept the Black people in
line. The organization was the Black church and then a white man kept
him there. I'm talking about pie in the sky, and I can't buy this either and
somewhere there's a kind of tension between the two. I think as a church
we've been in a ditch on both sides of the road, but I think we find through
a shifting of emphases, from the time way back when, you know, it was a
relationship between God, the Father, and nature.
00:40:22
Some of the old colleagues of the church most of the horns of the unicorn,
protect me from, you know, all the storm and stress and the dangers of
nature. And I think we shifted to Jesus Christ sole relationship and the
whole thing in life which ultimately, to me, is extremely selfish if that's your
only concern about you know my salvation that's a part of it but it's not all
of it. And I think we were hung out there for a long time important as it is.
To neglect the third area which I think we find ourselves in right now or
coming into hopefully, that is a relationship between the Holy Spirit and
society. Our concern is not, you know, primarily for myself. I think, you
know, that my [inaudible] is taken care of that I don't have to worry about
that but I am led by the spirit now to serve the needs of people and and
this, to me, is not a humanitarian, ethical position only, but it's a total
relationship that I see, and this is where I find myself. I am comfortable
there, and I don't say this is where you have to be.
00:41:34
I think with a relationship to the word and the spirit at this point, cause I
can't make it by myself I don't think society can. I think the whole
humanitarian bit you know we don't have the time, we don't have the
ability, because we're, I think, pretty selfishly oriented and, you know, pull
ourself, you know, out of that bag, I don't think we can, and this is where I
sit.
00:42:11
[Audience member] Mr. Welsh, after Reverend Evans said, about the
strength that we simply do not get on our own accord, but that some
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 17
realized that they could only get through Christianity. You've gone to
seminary, and spent five years as a Catholic priest, obviously some
changes must have taken place in you. What I'm wondering is, did this
happen while you were a priest, or they did it happen all of a sudden and
caused you to leave the church, established Church?
00:42:58
[Ron Welsh] It's awfully hard to define or put right now where something
took place. My father's the greatest priest I've ever met. I'm the last of ten
children. I've got 47 nephews and nieces. He knows how to make people
happy. That was my basic notion of what it meant to be a priest, so I
wanted to be like my father, only I thought that to be clergyman, I could do
this on a grander scale, until I became a Catholic priest and realized the
politics involved. And I realized that two years before I was ordained when
I was down street preaching in the South. This was back in the, about
1961 or ‘62 when the Freedom Riders began so there was-- I went down
there to preach Jesus Christ as a Catholic and came back a Christian or a
follower of Jesus Christ on a much different version than I went down
there.
00:43:45
When I was living as a Catholic priest, I was sliced up and down one side
and another by the hierarchy in town here. As Bob says, they have a right
to stand what they stand for, I have a right to stand what I stand for. I
stand for the type of priest my father is. I couldn't be that, personally
speaking, and remain a Catholic priest without either becoming an insane
person and I mean that in the sick sense of the word, or a person who
would end up going out and killing because I thought something was doing
that much harm which I saw organized Christianity doing. And so it was a
process which began when I first thought about becoming a priest but
which climaxed when I saw the crystallization of the Catholic Church
especially, and saw that it was about to break down and move at least in
my time, when I had good years to serve.
00:44:37
[John Benson] I suppose you've asked this question with regard to
comparison between yourself and Father Groppi in Milwaukee. Do you
know him and could you tell us what his thinking is? Why has he decided
to remain within the institutional church?
00:44:58
[Ron Welch] So they said before, if you've got a situation inside where you
can be heard, and if you've got a power inside which can be used, you'd
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 18
be a fool to move outside of it as long as you're working at the same base
of things that we're working in. And Groppi is not as much a Catholic priest
as he is a national figure who happens to have a Roman collar. Now you
may say that which comes first, the chicken or the egg, I don't know, but
I'm saying for Groppi to pull out now, we would be losing somebody in the
movement. And so I wouldn’t want to see Groppi pull out if it gets to the
point where Groppi personally speaking can't take it as a Catholic priest,
then I want to Groppi to pull out, because I think too much of Groppi.
00:45:33
[John Benson] Does this mean there's a difference in the hierarchy in the
Milwaukee area compared with here?
00:45:40
[Ron Welch] Sure, they're scared. Our guys aren't scared yet. They don't
even know we got a problem in Minneapolis!
00:45:54
[John Benson] We have time for one or two more questions.
00:46:06
[Audience Member] I'm not, this can be addressed to anyone on the panel,
but I'm not exactly sure when my sentiments lie in regard to the
institutional church, but I do think that an institution in some cases is a
necessity and perhaps, maybe some degree, to the churches and
institutions is a necessity too. Now we can attack the church all that we
want to, but I would like to ask any of the members of the panel this: what,
basically, is wrong inside the institutional church which makes it, you
know, such a big block to anything that can move? Is it fair to say that
perhaps we have such a poor leadership that this is why the church isn't
moving at all?
00:46:48
[Ron Welch] I'll go all day and let them start. [laughter]
00:46:59
[Reverend Williams] I would like to say to, to try to answer that question. I
could talk about it the rest of the day, but to try to answer that question:
the good Christians of the church have failed to stand for what's right,
what's just. I don't know somehow or another, we get too much involved in
the beautiful building, we get too much involved in material things to
remember that we are all God's children. And I think when the church get
why it refuses to answer to the call of the poor, of the oppressed, to
answer to the call of any unjustice that’s being used or being done on any
individual. If the church refused to stand, it's dead anyway. So all you have
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 19
to do as one individual is to encourage others when, doesn't have to be
the Black, it could be the red, the white, but any unjust. The church don't
take no part, they don't concern me.
00:48:10
So the church is dead because don't nothing concern them but beautiful
buildings, beautiful pews. Well, I like beautiful things, but you must be
more concerned because the Church should be a service to the people,
and not the people serve the church.
00:48:32
[Reverend Evans] I think the church has always been dead, and in
unrealistic ways. I think we think of the church as institution, you know,
institutions aren't alive, buildings aren't alive. Only people are alive, and I
think using the church as the body of Christ and I think scattered
throughout the church, I think there are many, many people who are very
much alive and very much concerned. I think there are those who are not,
but I think the church tends, the institutional church, tends to take on the
kind of climate that, you know, we call Americanism or the American way
of life which says, you know, what really counts is that you produce.
00:49:14
I see my status symbol as one who can produce, you know, more bricks,
more dollars, and more people, and I think we measure people and we
measure programs whether they're inside or outside of the church
according to these kind of success stories, and I think we have to
recognize that the worthiness of people is not the fact that, you know, they
produce but rather that they exist. And this is my worthiness and I don't
think the church, I think it understands this, but it loses so easily the whole
concept and the commitment of people, period. And we get hung up in a
commitment to white people, and nice people, and successful people, and
good people and this is very comfortable and you end up, you know,
manipulating people.
00:50:03
I think it's a matter of commitment and you can't--I think there are
committed people in the church and there are many in they're in positions
of leadership, and yet and somehow it's so easy to get in the ditch where
we fall prey to the to the kind of materialism that permeates our society.
You see it in racism and everywhere, and I think it'll always be with it to
curse it and to damn it is to be unrealistic too. You call it, you know, a
spade a spade and yet we know a lot as Luther says, you know, don't
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 20
forget that, you know, there are only sinners in the church and I take that
pretty seriously because then I kind of fit.
00:50:55
[Ron Welch] [Inaudible] you got to know the hills. Before he knew the hills
he had to know the people. Before he, and along with knowing the people,
he had to also know his enemy. Castro listened well. The first good quality
of any leader is his ability to listen and to perceive. One of the problems
that's happened with Christianity is that the leaders have isolated and
insulated themselves, the people who run the churches. They've isolated
and insulated themselves from the people who they are to serve.
Remember the Last Supper, where Christ said, ‘now do you see what I've
done? You no longer call me master. I am your servant.’ Alright, if I am
really your servant, that means I listen to you and I speak for you if you
can't get up here.
00:51:34
You can't go talk to somebody up here. I speak for you, well that means
I've listened to you. Alright, I think we need institutionalized church,
meaning people coming together to form a body of power. Alright, then if
they have a spokesman that spokesman hopefully is well attuned to those
people. Then you've got a real church. That man is serving those people,
those leaders are serving those people.
00:51:58
Let's see, it comes down to what these two men said, we got into the
bricks and mortar thing and we forgot that the church was people. We
forgot the whole dynamic of a movement and we got into the
organizational, power crazy thing, and forgot what it was all about and
that's why what I said before it's got to be broken down so that you finally
get down to what we call the grassroots level. And then it will come again.
[Inaudible] institutional Church again I think it's beautiful.
00:52:21
It's happening all over. The hippies are part of it, the true hippies, the
Black Power people are part of it, the people of the far east are part of it,
the people in Cuba are part of it. It's happening, and I think that the last
word is what's important.
00:52:34
If you'll never notice Black people, they'll walk around and say, ‘what's
happening, brother?’ Alright, that's, when you ask people what's
happening, then you've got some reality of church taking place because
people are listening to people. Gwen Jones Davis, who was one of my
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 21
bosses, can listen to at least three conversations at one time, she's a
leader, she listens.
00:52:58
[John Benson ] The time has come for us to stop. We are all deeply
indebted to you for being with us, and before I give you a chance to
express your appreciation with a round of applause, I have these two
announcements. The Dudley Riggs Brave New Workshop is going to
present a one half-hour specially written particularly for this day at Melby
Hall 4:30, so about a half an hour. I emphasize that this is written by them
by, whether it's him or his group, especially for our day, so I would
encourage you all to go. And this evening the session with Milt Williams
[Mahmoud El-Kati] will begin at 6:30 out in College Center lobby, so again
thank--
00:53:53
[The recording cuts off]
Christianity and Bigotry (afternoon session) (transcript), page 22
Show less
Transcript of “What Can You Do?”
A speech by Lillian D. Anthony
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255a
Description: Lillian Anthony, Director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights Department,
delivered the address in the morning of May 15, 1968 as part of “One Day in May” at
Aug... Show more
Transcript of “What Can You Do?”
A speech by Lillian D. Anthony
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0255a
Description: Lillian Anthony, Director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights Department,
delivered the address in the morning of May 15, 1968 as part of “One Day in May” at
Augsburg College (now Augsburg University). Students, faculty, and administration
canceled class to invite leaders of Minneapolis’ Black community to speak about system
racism and related issues.
Duration: 00:54:32
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Augsburg President Oscar Anderson]: I'd like to have you know a little bit
about our guest this morning, the one person that all of us wanted to be
here to begin our “Day in May.” She was born in Indianapolis and received
a Bachelor of Science degree from Lincoln University in Jefferson City,
Missouri and holds a master's degree in religious education from the
Pittsburgh Seminary in Pittsburgh, Pennsylvania.
00:00:20
She has traveled extensively in Europe and in the Middle East, has
conducted leadership training classes for the Commission on Ecumenical
Missions and Relations in India, Pakistan, Thailand, Hong Kong, and the
Philippines. She has been a director of the Bureau of Work programs for
the Department of Labor and has done volunteer work with disadvantaged
youth in Indianapolis, Chicago, and Minneapolis. She has served on the
Governor's Human Rights Commission, she's on the board of Directors of
Volunteers Unlimited and is a member of the Urban Coalition, as well as of
the Minnesota Council for Civil and Human Rights.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 1
00:00:53
She presently serves with distinction as the Director of the Minneapolis
Department of Civil Rights and I'm very happy to present to this audience,
to the Augsburg community, to begin our “One Day in May,” in order that
we might indeed be sensitized to the problems which confront us: Miss
Lillian D. Anthony. Miss Anthony. [applause]
00:01:21
[President Anderson says something inaudible to Anthony, and she
responds by chuckling,]
00:01:27
[Lillian Anthony]:Thank you very much.
00:01:31
I'm particularly very pleased that you can still give me such a warm
welcome after I have kind of goofed up your program! But I really kind of
goofed it up because I got up this morning at 6:30 [she laughs] going to be
on time. You know, we Black people have something called “CP Time,”
and they, that's called “Colored People Time,” [she and the audience
laugh], but I'm trying to get rid of all those stereotypes you understand.
[audience laughs]
00:02:02
So I would not have been here late had I not really read. I thought that I
was supposed to be here at 9:15, and so I would like to start right away,
and I hope that I can have my extra 15 minutes because now, as I'm
speaking to audiences around the country, I am convinced that talking is
of little value. You know everybody has said everything, every book has
been written in terms of racism, race relations, civil rights and human
rights. There is nothing new under the sun! [she laughs] But I think I have
something new to tell you. [she and the audience laugh] Oh! Yes.
[audience laughs]
00:02:38
I would like to make it very clear that I speak from many points of view
today. I speak certainly as the director of the Civil Rights Department, but I
also speak as a Black woman, I also speak as an Afro-American. And I'm
sure there's some of you who will then get in that bag and say “well we
don't understand what Black people want to be called. Some say Black,
some say Afro-American, some say colored, some say Negro.” You know,
“What do you really want to be called?” You know that's one of those
changes you're gonna have to go through with us cause we haven't
decided yet. [she and the audience laugh]
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 2
00:03:14
Ossie Davis said very recently, in Washington DC--in a conference on the
treatment of minorities in the textbooks--Ossie Davis said “we fought for
100 years to get them to spell N with the capital N, and now we want them
to stop using Negro all together.” And I'm very serious about this one, and
I would like to start off by reading a poem by a young 17-year old
Afro-American young woman. It's called "Black."1
00:03:41
“I am a Negro--and I am ashamed.
Chemicals in my hair to make it other than what it is,
Bleaches on my skin to make it more . . . non-black.
Cosmetics on my face to be like the ‘other’.
Why must I try to be other than what I am?
“The French say that they are French from France,
The Irish say they are Irish from Ireland,
The Italians say they are Italians from Italy,
And I say I am a Negro--from where?
Is there a Negro land?
“The French, Irish, Italians all have a culture and heritage.
What is My land? Where are my people? My culture? My heritage?
I am a Negro--and I am ashamed.
Who GAVE me this name?
Slaves and dogs are named by their masters . . . Free men named themselves.
Must I be other than what I am?
“I am Black. This is a source of pride.
My hair is short and finely curled.
My skin is deep-hued, from brown to black.
My eyes are large, open to the world.
My lips are thick, giving resonance to my words.
“My nose is broad to breathe freely the air.
My heritage is my experience in America . . . although not of it;
Free from pretense; open to truth.
Seeking freedom that all life may be free.
I am Black. America has cause to be proud.
1
The author of “Black” is Barbara Wright. U.S. Congress. Senate. Committee on Equal Educational
Opportunity. Quality and Control of Urban Schools: Hearings before the Select Committee on Equal
Educational Opportunity. 92nd Cong., 1st sess., July 27; 29; August 5, 1971. Prepared Statement of
Arthur E. Thomas (5937).
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 3
00:05:08
I'd like to read one more. This one has been written by an Indian recently:
“All the wars since the Indians fell.
I think the country is going to hell!
They talk of giving it back to us.
If they do, we'll raise a fuss.
Politics, wars, racial riots!
Sorry, white brother, we wouldn't buy it.
00:05:31
[audience laughs] It’s a pretty terrible indictment on the condition in the
United States of America, but I have found that this condition is not
peculiar to the United States of America. I found wherever there were
colored people or Black peoples in the world that this condition then was
the usual.
00:05:49
I found after working in Egypt for three years that an Egyptian could have
a child and if that child was ugly, in terms of the physical features, that that
child was called beautiful if it had fair and light skin. It could be very
beautiful in terms of physical features and if it was Black then it was ugly. I
found the same thing was true in Japan where they like to be called those
who are fairer in complexion were the ones who were called beautiful. I
found the same thing in China, which was Hong Kong. And so I'm
convinced that there is something wrong with our psyche in the United
States for America. There is something that it's perpetuating us to look at
one another in terms of color.
00:06:36
So I have designed a little piece, and this piece is called, "Take a Look in
the Mirror". How many of you know Aretha Franklin? Yeah. Well Aretha
Franklin has a record called "Take a Look in the Mirror," and it says:
00:06:51
"Take a look at yourself,
But don't look too close,
‘Cause you just might see
The person that you hate the most.
Lord what's happening
To this human race?
I can't even see
One friendly face.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 4
Brothers fight brothers,
And sisters wink their eyes,
While silver tongues
Bear fruits of poison lies.
Take a look
At your children, born innocent every day.
Every boy and every girl
Denying themselves a real chance
To build a better world.
Dear lord, dear Lord
What's happening
To your precious dream?
it's washing away
On a bloody, bloody stream.
Take a look at your children
Before it's too late
And tell them nobody wins
When the price is hate."
00:07:29
And I think throughout the history of the United States, where the Black
man and the Indian and other minorities have come into this country, we
have all been taught that we must get rid of Blackness, and all of us who
were then Black and had some pigmentation regardless of the degree
were taught that all you white folks were nice and good. [audience laughs]
00:07:54
And I would like to say this to you: Racism is something which is very real,
and many people have said "I'm not a racist. I've never discriminated. I've
never segregated, don't put me in that bag!” You know, “No, I don’t want to
hear about all those things that happened years and years ago, I wasn't
even here!" I'm sure that's what you'd say. You know, “I don't even know
that some of my ancestors had anything to do with this mess.”
00:08:19
All right this color here for you way back there in the back, this is yellow,
this color here is it's really more pink but it's supposed to be red. The next
color is black, the next color is white. Now those of you who are up here
real close, did you notice something that began to happen? There are
some words written on each of these colors. Yeah, alright. Some of you
got that 20/20 vision can even see.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 5
00:08:48
It's a word on each one of these pages. Notice the space that those words
take up on those pages. Alright now let me read to you what these words
say. These words are from the 1967 Webster's Dictionary, and young
bright college students I know that you're gonna check me out so you just
go right on. I'm going to read to you what it says here.
00:09:13
[presumably holding a yellow paper] "Having a yellow like pigmentation of
the skin is that characteristic of Mongolians or Asians. Jealous or
melancholic, cowardly or untrustworthy. Cheaply sensational to an
offensive degree. Set of certain newspapers. Any of several fungus or
viruses. Diseases of plants causing yellowing on the leaves, stunting of
growth. Jaundice, especially for farm animals. Bad humour, jealousy. to
make or to become, yellow."
00:09:37
Red. I'm not reading all of it, just the parts that are really important for us.
"North American Indian. A red object. A red space in various chess
games. Having or being of the color red or any of its hues. Having red
hair. Having or considered to have a reddish or coppery skin as the North
American Indian. Politically radical, revolutionary, especially Communist of
the Soviet Union. In the red: losing money as a business, in debt. Paint
the town red: to have a noisy good time, that’s by visiting bars and
nightclubs, see red; become or be angry."
00:10:09
Black: “Opposite of white.” [Audience laughs] “Dark complexion. Negro.
Totally without lights. All dirty. Wearing Black clothing. Evil. Wicked.
Harmful. Disgraceful. Sad, dismal, gloomy, sullen." Now you can see why
we never want to be called Black!” [Audience laughs] "Dark clothing as for
mourning. Black villain."
00:10:31
Now, white: [adjusts microphone] "having the color of pure snow or milk".
[audience laughs] Couldn't be plain old snow or milk [laughter] gotta be
"pure snow or milk". [audience laughs] Unbelievable! wait you're gonna
get sick. [laughter] "Free from evil intent. Harmless as white magic. A
white lie. Happy. Fortunate. Auspicious set of times and season. Having
light-colored skin, Caucasian. Of or controlled by the white race, as white
supremacy.”
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 6
00:11:14
Right after this, listen to the next thing: “Honest, honorable, fair,
dependable.” [she and the audience laugh] Unbelievable! [laughter]
"Purity, innocence, white or light-colored, specifically the [inaudible].
Something white, nearly white in color." Goes on, "White wine. White
pigment." Goes on, "White bread. Fine flour. A person with a light-colored
skin. Member of the Caucasian division of mankind."
00:11:36
Did it say that the Negroes were a division of mankind? Did you say the
North American Indian was a division of mankind? [Inaudible] yellow one
was a division of mankind? It's a kind of insidious subtle kind of teaching
of racism. Now, children first learn color, then children learn how to spell
those words, and then if it's a good teacher, you know, she's trying to
involve the class and so she sends him to the dictionary to look it up, then
she goes into those little things like you know we want you to share with
the class.
00:12:08
And so now here we have an Asian in the class, and have a Black person
in the class, we have an Indian in the class, we have Caucasians in the
class [inaudible]. Then it says "Share your, you know, the definition of
you." What do you think would happen? And I'm gonna get up and tell all
these things? Am I gonna feel proud about it? Am I gonna feel good about
it? So now we got a job to do with the dictionaries and the encyclopedias,
just in the basis of color. For instance, people have said to me time and
time again, "Why do you have this hang up on color?" I said, "Because it's
your hang-up, you know,life to hate what I am."
00:12:14
In my family, the worst profane word you could say was Black. We never
heard any profanity anyway. If you slammed the door mama had a fit, but
you call somebody Black somebody or described him as Black somebody,
that was the most profane thing you could say, to the point that daddy
would come home and daddy was mad at somebody. He's saying, "He
was the color of that stovepipe!" [audience laughs] Wasn’t going to call
him black. So this is the kind of hang-up we have.
00:13:13
Or secondly, I will make a presentation and after I get through with the
white audience somebody invariably says, "But Lillian! or “Miss Anthony
you are different.” That's one insult. The worst one comes when it says,
"But I didn't even see your color! I didn't see you as a Negro!" and that's
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 7
really bad news because what are they saying to me when they say that?
They saw me only in their image, only in their image.
00:13:55
And this is what Kenneth Clark did with these young children--four years
old when he first got them--gave them all dolls, Black dolls and white dolls,
and says you know, "Pick any doll you want." All Black children, every one
of them, picked a white doll. A year later Kenneth Clark took that same
group of children and he said, "Who are you?" and they grinned and they
beamed, and he said, "Are you colored?" and they said no. "Are you
Negro?" No. Are you a n*****?" No. "What are you? Black and beautiful!"
and they picked Black dolls.
00:14:30
What we're trying to say is that the whole business of racism is very
complex and Kenneth Clark said something else and I would like to read it
verbatim from his book on the "Dark Ghetto". I don't know how many of
you might have read it I'm reading from the introduction now to the
epilogue, and he says here:
00:14:51
"For many years before I became an involved observer, Harlem had been my
home. My family moved from house to house and from neighborhood to
neighborhood within the walls of the ghetto in a desperate attempt to escape its
creeping blight. In a real sense, therefore, “Dark Ghetto” is a summation of my
personal and lifelong experiences and observations as a prisoner within the
ghetto long before I was aware that I was really a prisoner. To my knowledge...*"
00:15:22
And this is important for those of you who raised many questions, it's very
important for you who are in social sciences.
00:15:28
"... To my knowledge, there is at present nothing in the vast literature of social
sciences and textbooks, and nothing in the practical or field training of graduate
students in social science to prepare them for the realities and the complexities of
this type of involvement in a real, dynamic, turbulent, and at times seemingly
chaotic community, and what is more, nothing anywhere in the training of social
scientists, teachers, or social workers now prepares them to understand or to
cope with the changes that are going on. These are grave lacks which must be
remedied."
00:16:12
It's a terrible indictment again in our total educational system in terms of
our colleges and our universities because I'm convinced now, that one of
the reasons that we do, that he can make such an indictment, and I have
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 8
made the same; is that you and I have not been taught to be human
beings. We have every possible course in the university, but we are really
taught how to be non-human beings and one of the major hang-ups we
have is being taught to become technicians, to develop a technician
mentality. And I call that one of my first “Middle-Class Hangups”.
00:16:51
Leading the list of the middle-class hang-up is the technician mind. This is
the belief that everything can be solved if we have the right people with
the right skills. Technology has the answer to everything, people and time
are not given space in the problem, and right skills mean the same thing
as insight. And those of us who are of the minority races have found out
that this is all a lie.
00:17:11
Example: 1965, when I came to this city, I was attempting to find housing,
and could not find housing because of discrimination, finally was able to
get an apartment but it was only because the Department of Labor, federal
government, had made it very clear to the management of this particular
building that I would get an apartment or that there would be some
consequences. So I got the appointment with some persuasion, but I had
had a white minister who went around with me for two days. He would go
and he would be told that the building, or the room, or the apartment, was
available, and I would go and it was not available, or we would both go
and they would say well I must call the owner, I'm only the manager.
00:18:09
So finally, I got this apartment and then a young man came to the city, and
the Urban League called me and said, "Lillian you were able to find a nice
apartment, and we would like for you to help this young man." Now this
man had all of the credentials, this is my point, had all of the credentials,
responsible citizen, had an education. His education went beyond even a
PhD. He had a post doctorate degree from Carnegie, and was--how many
of you know what Corningware is? He helped invent it.
00:18:44
Black man. Came to this city and I said alright, and I tried to help him find
an apartment. He had two children. I ended up, by saying to him, "Well,
I'm living in the YWCA, my furniture isn't to come for another week, that's
alright. I will cancel it.” You take this apartment." It was two bedrooms and
a bath and a half and with two children this would've been fine.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 9
00:19:04
Called up this agency and the agency said, "We're sorry Miss Anthony, we
were perfectly willing to let you have it, but we're very sorry we cannot let
him have it," on the basis that he had two children. And I did interrupt him
to say “But you did have children there. The lady who opened the door, we
knocked on the wrong door, had a baby in her arms and he said, "Oh yes,
but we can't do anything--we don't put people out when they have babies."
But he interrupted me too soon. What he didn't know was the lady also
had a three-year-old child on the tricycle. The building was one year old.
[audience murmurs] This is very disappointing, and so what we're saying
is: color is important, and you must understand that. You must begin to
appreciate it.
00:19:55
Another thing, and since we are in a … [long pause] This is a church
school isn't it? [she and the audience laugh] [she clears her throat]
Theologically, the middle class person [she and the audience laugh] is
conservative and he believes that all social ills can be solved by the
church through preaching and praying, and he uses theological jargon that
is well known and continues to use well use platitudes, and I feel that the
church has failed more than any other institution in this country next to the
educational institution, because the church has said that we you know
profess and hold all these things to be true from a higher intelligence and
a greater power, and we rely on this power to give us humanity and to give
us the guts and the courage to do what we have to do.
00:21:05
And I think we profane and blaspheme in religion and Christianity. I say
religion and Christianity remembering that there are Jews, and there are
Muhammadans, and there are others who do not believe in the saving
grace of Jesus Christ. This I believe in, and I have seen miracles happen.
I've seen them happen since I've been in this job. Mike Gaines, who is a
Jewish man who is the deputy in our department, said to me the other
day, "You know it was almost like it came out of Acts. He said, ""Almost
you persuadeth me." [she and the audience laugh]
00:21:44
So many good things have happened to us that was just unbelievable!
With the City Council and other things has just been unbelievable. And
one of the good things is that, since our department has been in business
since December the first, we have some 50 cases of allegations of
discrimination and segregation in this city. About half of them we have
been able to conciliate.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 10
00:22:08
Example: I don't know how many of you saw the Saturday paper. On
Friday, we had gone to review a film, and this film was an ad for an
insurance company. The insurance company had an Indian shooting a
bow and arrow with some fire on the end of it into a house. There was
another one at the same time, taking clothes from the lines, stealing
clothes from the line. And so, an Indian had come to us and said that they
found this very offensive and "why, they don't want to use you people
throwing Molotov bombs at houses and things, so why should they use us
using bow and arrows? Showing arson and theft and there were some
other things.” [Inaudible] we said to them you know, "We would like to
have that film to show today at three o'clock to the Human Relations
Commission."
00:23:06
We wrote them a letter to this effect. On Saturday, I picked up the paper
and it said that "This film has been taken, this advertisement for this
insurance company had been taken off the air!” Now they hoped, you see,
that this was going to keep us from showing it to the Human Relations
Commission today--and it didn't. [audience laughs] We're going to show it
and then bring about establishing probable cause, because unless we
continue to let people know how offensive these things are to another
human being--how this demeans, and how this thing takes away one's
human dignity. You know, we're not getting anywhere.
00:23:42
Also you might have read in the paper also on Friday or Saturday, that we
have a case against the City Attorney's office. This is a real bad one. It's
bad because if we really get up against the wall I'm supposed to be able to
go to City Attorney's office but hell [she stammers in exhasperation]. [the
audience laughs] These are the kinds of complexities that we were
beginning to deal with [inaudible] very exciting and some of them are very
sad.
00:24:08
We have a young Indian man, a young boy 14 years old, who was brought
in by his mother, severely beaten, and he alleges that a policeman did this
to him between elevators. We're trying to establish probable cause here,
but this is very difficult, because we cannot investigate--the only case that
we cannot investigate is the police. And we're trying to do something today
to begin to find a way to have the right to investigate allegations in terms
of police brutality. At this point, whenever we get a complaint against the
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 11
police department we must give it to Chief Hawkinson and he investigates
it.
00:24:59
I would like to say that in terms of the civil disobedience--notice I did not
say riot--that has occurred across the United States is a revolution, and I
would appeal to you not to condone it but to understand it.
00:25:23
When Watts, when the riot, or the civil disobedience occurred in Watts, I
happened to be flying in that very evening. These are one of the things I
don't call these miracles. I really give God a hard time about this. I don't
know why he puts me in all these peculiar situations which make people
say, Oh Lilian you exaggerating and you are lying," but I arrived in Watts
the night it hit. I arrived in Harlem the day after. I was working in
Wisconsin out of Chicago and arrived in Chicago when it hit. That begins a
smack of something doesn't it? [the audience laughs] I didn't have
anything to do with it.
00:26:12
But I was sitting on this plane feeling much annoyed at having to sit next
to this white man. The reason I was feeling much annoyed was because I
had been working with a group of Presbyterian white people, about 500 of
them, for a week and they had given me a nervous rash. And I got on that
plane and I thought “God I just cannot go through this one more time! I
know this man is gonna start looking at me and smiling and he's gonna
want to be cordial. He's gonna want to be friendly. He's gonna ask me,
gonna introduce himself, he's gonna ask me who I am, then he's gonna
get into the whole business about the problem. Now I cannot take it.” And
so I was just kind of shriveling up over here in my little seat, [audience
laughs] like, just don't say anything to me.
00:26:55
Well luckily, it was the one of the first times I'd been on the plane where
they showed the movies, and they showed a movie that I hadn't seen.
Started looking at that movie the next thing I knew--I'm a terrible person
going to movies with--I was beating him! [she and the audience laugh] I
was having a good time in that movie and he was laughing and we were
talking. [the audience laughs] So in spite of myself, here I am getting all
involved, and then the pilot said, "Ladies and gentlemen we would like to
say to you: if you would look on the left-hand side of the plane, you will
see fires, you will see smok--they are not the usual kind of California forest
fires. It's a riot."
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 12
00:27:44
Well, have you ever been aware of some--for instance, we've been told if
we go to a theater and there is a fire: don't stampede, don't mob, you
know we've been taught that, but when it happens that's what you do?
When this man said “riot,” I just sat there, I thought, you know, “...riot...” It
didn't even--I didn't understand! I thought, “riot?!” Didn't make sense.
People fighting people or what. Then I heard a man, the whole plane
begin the buzz is one of these planes where everybody, there's no first
and second class. I heard all just buzzing buzzing I heard somebody said,
"Well what do they want next? We've given them everything!"
00:28:24
I thought, "Oh... oh! [the audience laughs] Ah-ha-ha! They're talking about
us!" [she and the audience laugh] I thought, “well, well, well.” I
thought...riot? I remembered that there had been a riot in Detroit, and
some years ago they'd been a riot in Chicago, and I thought “Mmm!” So
then they kept this up. You know the seats are so tall, you just can't turn
around and see who's doing what and so I just got up on my knees and I
said, "We want everything that you have and evidently they intend to get
it." And I sat down and the plane went [she makes a hush noise and the
audience laughs].
00:29:08
And believe it or not, as I grew up as a child and as a young adult,
youth--I'm still young though--I was shy! Didn't talk, and here I had the
nerve to get up and tell those people--and they didn't even know me--what
I thought. So when the plane landed, it was almost like a parting of the
waves when I came in here but it's kind of letting me on through. And then
I became alarmed because I hadn't seen my brother for some years and I
was anxious to see him. They had a new baby I had never seen, and they
were not there. That was unusual for my brother.
00:29:45
So I went to the phone and I called just knowing that they were a part of
this whole business, and my sister-in-law answered the telephone. She
said, "He's on the way back, but we were at the airport and they
announced that everybody should leave, and so we've come home and
he's on his way back to you," and I said, "Where is daddy?" and she said
"Marshall is on his way after you, you better look for him, he's right--he's
probably there now," which meant then that my father was in the area,
when the riot was. So then my brother came and he could not talk, and as
we drove all the way to his house, tears were just rolling down his face.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 13
00:30:21
Finally, he said [...] with a horrible, broken voice, he said, "This is gonna
set us back fifty years!" Man, you'd have to know my brother he's really a
miniature Dick Gregory--he's a beautiful Black man. And when he said it
like that you know, it's a lot of feeling and a lot of hurt. For him, my brother
was the kind of an individual who graduated from high school a D-plus
student. Never felt he could go to college and I persuaded him to come to
school with me, and he did on one condition, that I wouldn't tell anybody
here my brother. [she and the audience laugh] We found out throughout
high school the teachers were always saying to him, "Well you certainly
don't act like you are a brother to Lillian Anthony or Amanda Anthony, you
don't you know perform the same way."
00:31:17
That hurt but he came on that campus and that's what he did, he
graduated cum laude. He graduated University of Lincoln. He then went
on and got his master's from UCLA. And so he's made it, and
suddenly--he's the kind of man who lived, he and his wife, in an apartment
for three years with only a bed, a bureau, a stove, a table, and two chairs.
He said, "I will not be in debt the whole business of the stereotypes of the
Black man being in debt. I will not have a child until I can buy my own
home". And so for eight years, they did not have a child. "I will not buy a
car until I can pay cash for it, and he wanted a Cadillac, and he bought it,
and he paid cash for it. And so suddenly all of this is going on around him
and he is sick at heart.
00:32:03
He is saying, now what is going to happen, man--all the Black people have
to do is work and save and get educated, mmm! And so he sat up all
night, and I was going to do some work in the Pacific Palisades--again,
with white people. Now I really am torn up about going to them in the
midst of this riot, so that my brother took me the next day. We could not
get to my father. We could not get to the telephones. They would not let us
through the barricades, which I went on to the Pacific Palisades and my
brother drove me in his brand-new Cadillac car.
00:32:40
We were stopped five times with policemen with helmets and not only a
gun but the bayoneted gun, "What are you doing in this area?" And each
time I had to show them the correspondence of my invitation to teach at
the Pacific Palisades. And finally, we got there my brother by now is really
upset. So he left me, and the next Sunday, I was looking for a church to
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 14
go to, and I went to a church because the bulletin board said “Playboy
Revisited.” [she laughs] I wanted to see what they gonna preach about, in
terms of the Playboy. [the audience laughs]
00:33:19
But when the man got up, he looked out at the congregation and how I just
looked at him, and he had the same it seemed to me, look that my brother
had and he said, "You are responsible for the civil disobedience! You are
responsible for the riot!” And he told them, one after the other, the things
that they had done historically and the things they've done in that city
recently. He says, “you, in this congregation will not be off the hook. Either
you, as members of this congregation, leave this place, this day, going
into Watts to take food, to help, to clean up, to administer to the needs of
the people, or you need not come back to this church. This is what this
church is all about."
00:34:02
I-I couldn't believe it! That's what I mean by miracles. I needed something
to give me hope again. And as we went out of the church, people were
beginning to form car cavalcades, caravans, and people are coming with
food, and so then I went back and I asked the group that I was working
with if they would take up some money and they took up immediately
something like one hundred fifty dollars. Now how am I gonna get it into
the area? So I called up my brother and I asked him if he would come and
get it, and he said, “you must be out of your mind. I'm not going any place
to do anything about for those people,” I said, "Daddy's in there!" He said,
"But daddy isn't a part of that riot. It's a bunch of hoodlums and young
punks that I create all that trouble.”
00:34:47
So I said "You come get this money right now, because this is to help
Black people and you're Black," and I hung up. This time, my brother
came in his old, raggedy [...] 1954 Volvo! [she and the audience laugh]
Took the money, didn't say anything to me, and just dashed on off. To
make a long story short, my brother is deeply involved in the whole
redevelopment of the Watts area as a result of going in there that day,
going in there with anger, going in with fear, and going in with tears. He
now is helping to redevelop the area.
00:35:35
My father was safe. He said he just said on his porch and watched them
go in there and loot and carry on, and I said “daddy you didn't take any of
that stuff, did you?” And my daddy is not beyond that. [the audience
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 15
laughs] And I think all of the things that have happened in terms of: Watts,
Chicago, Harlem, Chicago, and Minneapolis, Minnesota, Newark, New
Jersey. It's important for you to understand it was never in a retaliation or
a vindictive mood. It was the same kind of hate being turned in on oneself.
00:36:10
And I say this from the historical perspective that the Black people in the
colored peoples of this world do not have the murderous criminal records
of white people in this country. And that's why you will hear Black people
and other minority groups saying that the white society is sick. And that's
why you hear Black separatists saying that we want our children apart and
out of that sick society. And that is why you hear the nationalists say the
same thing.
00:36:38
That is why I will say to you that if this world and if this nation is to be
saved--I'm totally convinced it will be saved by Black people and colored
people. And I say that because we have not taken on that mentality. We
have not taken on the mentality that human life is not worth anything. We
have not taken on the mentality that the almighty dollar means that
anything is expedient and you can do anything with anybody. And I'm
saying the whole business of property and ownership, it's basically the
sickness that’s in this country, and we have not been able to get over it.
Since the Portuguese in 1442, brought out the first slave from Africa into
Portugal and on into Spain, we have had troubles. And since it was the
papal bulls of the church which said “it's fine for you to go in there and
take other human beings and make them property.” The church has been
and has endorsed this activity. Was only some of the few abolitionists in
our period, in our time, who began to say this is not right.
00:37:59
And I would then like to quickly turn you--and I'm not going to be able to
use but a few because so many of you are standing up you won't be able
to see it anyway--but I will show you two pictures of two Black scientists
that I think are important. I had fourteen. [there are sounds of her
arranging items] Let me just use one. You and your school, and your,
whether it's University training, college training, or elementary training,
have not really been taught the history of people in this country who were
different from yourselves. And very few of you, if I named these names
can tell me who they are. But I want to tell you when people have spoken
of getting an education, becoming a responsible citizen, forgetting slavery.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 16
You can't do that because then you're denying the whole total historical
perspective.
00:38:57
This This man's name is Lewis Latimer. Let me just read what it says
about Lewis Latimer, "Lewis Latimer was an associate of Thomas Edison
and experimental work in the field of electricity. To him goes the honor of
having solved the problem of transforming the electric current into light to
the invention of incandescent light. He's superintendent the installation of
electric lights in New York City, Philadelphia, London, and many of the
large cities. He was also chief draftsman of the General Electric and
Westinghouse Companies. He also drafted plans for Alexander Graham
Bell. He drafted the plans for the first telephone.”
00:39:42
How many of you know who Charles Drew was? [...] Oh. How many of you
had a blood transfusion in here? Here's one, any others? You're a healthy
group! Charles Drew is the inventor of the conservative for blood plasma.
And Charles Drew died in Atlanta. [she is arranging items] I’m going to put
it on this side maybe it'd be better, I just put them on the floor. Charles
Drew had an accident in Tuskegee, Alabama. Here it is. Then 1950. He
had this accident and as a result of it he should have received medical
help at a hospital and they refused to give him medical help. The man who
is responsible for setting up banks throughout the country, he set up the
first blood bank in 1942, was called by the United States government to
take charge of the blood conservation by setting up these banks. As a
result of his work many millions of lives throughout the world have been
saved. Here this man, just because he was Black could not receive
medical attention and he died.
00:44:17
These are the kinds of terrible things that have happened. Did you know
that it was a Black man, every time you've been on a train... How many of
you have been on a train? You know, you've got to ask those kind of
stupid questions these days? You got airplanes and you fly everywhere?
How many of you been on a train? Woo! Very good, very good. [the
audience laughs] But every time that train knocked itself together, that was
invented by Black man, Beard, called the coupling device. He saw men
jumping over things and losing arms, and hands, and feet, and he said,
"Look somebody ought to be able to design something to prevent that,"
and so he designed something that when the train hit, it locked, called a
coupling device.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 17
00:42:01
How many of you know about the drip cup, most of you young men should
know about that. Elijah McCoy, have you heard somebody say if that's the
“Real McCoy?” This man invented, Elijah McCoy invented something
called the drip cup every time you go 60 miles an hour and over, you're
able to do that because of this lubricating device that Elijah McCoy, a
Black man, invented.
00:42:27
These the kinds of things that have not been a part of the history, and had
you been taught these things you could not then think that a Black man or
anyone else was less than you. When we have used this in a class, Black
children just sit there in their eyes sparkling they just stick out their chests
and white kids look a little bewildered. [the audience laughs] [she laughs]
It's great! [they laugh]
00:42:55
I think we have something very precious and very fine which I hope we
don't lose, and which is called “soul.” You've heard a lot about soul. It's
very hard for us to define, but it's the ability to feel. It's the ability to be
emotional, and we've always taken this as a criticism. And young women
when young men say to you you know, "She's emotional," Then say,
“thank God I am!” That means that you still can feel things, and we're
taught in this society not to really show feeling.
00:43:29
I sat with three groups yesterday in training sessions. I sat with a group at
Beth-El Synagogue. I sat with a group at Munsingwear. I sat with a group
from General Mills. I'll use the last group, General Mills. I asked them
when I came in. I said, I couldn't do it with you because you're too many, I
said, "You will know who I am. You know something about me. Tell me
who you are." Well, they went around and told me, there were eighteen,
what their names were. Then I said, "Okay, tell me just a little bit about
yourself." One man said, "Will you tell us about yourself?" All these people
are white, sat one Black brother, and I said, "No, he's going to introduce
me. Tell me about yourself."
00:44:18
We sat there. They sipped on their cocktails. They ate their salad. One
man began to talk about... "Well I have... this is off the subject but, would
you tell me is the Poor People's March a Poor People's March for Black
people or all people or is it really a civil rights march?" I looked at the man
next to me and I said, "I wonder how long it's gonna take him to tell me
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 18
who he is or something about himself." You know, we timed it. For thirty
minutes, thirty minutes! Not one human being around that table except
finally the Black cat said to me, "I don't think maybe you knew, I went to
Lincoln University the same school you went to. So we talked about that a
little*" bit.
00:45:05
Finally the man next to me on this side said, you know, "I came from a
farm background and I have a brother who has a turkey farm and he's
very poor. So we know what poverty is." Another man, two men over from
him said well, he said, you know, "I used to work for a Black man and we
called them “N***** Man,” and we all perked*" up. He said, "I work for him
for $2 an hour every night. He bootleg whiskey and a man was supposed
to come in that had three fingers on it, and if any other hand reaching in
there, I was supposed to come down with a knife." He said, "Because
those three fingers belong to n***** man who was bootlegging it."
00:45:56
So somebody said to him, "Where was that?!" And he got very red and he
said, "Come on, tell us, where was it?!" He wouldn't tell. Only three people
around that table was willing to give me a little bit of themselves, and yet
they wanted me to come in and do all that I'm doing here with you. Hm?
Didn't want to give up anything! The night before, with the other group I
had asked them to tell me where they lived. One man said, "I live in
Homewood, one said Edina, once at Golden Valley." I said, Where do you
live? Each question I asked three to four times. Finally one man said,
"Well I really don't want to tell you where I live. Fine brother, at least you're
being honest.
00:46:41
What I'm saying is: you've got to learn to give, and you've got to learn to
give up, and one of the things you've got to give up--and it's gonna be
hard. You have got to learn to give up your decision-making for another
human being. You've got to permit the Black man, the Indian, the Puerto
Rican, and others, and Africans to determine their destiny. You've got to
permit us to make whatever mistakes we're gonna have to make. You're
gonna have to go through this total catharsis with us of getting ourselves
together, and secondly, you have got to, as white people, get yourself
together and research yourself, and study yourself, and understand that
you are the problem.
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 19
00:47:37
The problem is not the Black man, the Indian Puerto Rican, and others. All
of the oppressive things that are happening in this country were not done
to other people by Indians, Black people, et cetra. "Et cetra," that what my
teacher would say. It's by the white system.
00:48:01
Don't get hung up on being an individual in this system, it's the white
system and every white man, woman, and child is a part of it, and so you
need to study yourself and work on yourself--without Black people, and
this is gonna be hard. As long as we're there that you cannot cast your
own shadow. I have been working with twenty white people to go out and
do this very thing and they're not coming back saying they don't want to go
out anymore. Mr. Faulk at the University of Minnesota said, "Lilian I had
never felt the hostility and the anger as I have felt from groups as I had
been attempting to do this."
00:48:40
They're using this instrument called, “Take a Look in the Mirror,” and
others. Another one called from the Presbyterian church and said, “you
know, I've never been so ill and so sick as I was when I left that group up it
Clearwater." He said, "The people were just sick I've never felt such
hatred in my life."
00:49:02
What they said to them was, "How can you talk to us this way? You are
white like the rest of us.” And I'm saying if you begin to take a stand, and
you begin to point out that this is a racist society, and if you say “I am a
white racist,” then you're in trouble. Then you just are going to begin to
feel what Black people in minorities have felt in this country ever since we
put our foot on that first gangplank [she thumps the podium] unwillingly.
00:49:29
It's another thing people don't understand. That we’d rather, some of us
rather, would rather than to be going to slavery, threw ourselves
overboard and killed ourselves.There was one Black strong man who was
able to get just a hammer off of a ship and he made them turn that ship
around and take them back and many of you don't know the strength and
the beauty that came out of Africa.
00:49:56
You've never been taught about the great empires of Sanga which is
Ghana. You haven't taught about the great empires of Ethiopia, which was
then called Abyssinia. You haven't been taught that the greatest library in
the world was out of Timbuktu.You haven't been taught that there were
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 20
great medical men who left Africa to go and to take care of people in
Europe. You haven't been taught that we were a part of the beginning of
the invention of glass, and in Egypt, paper. The [inaudible], the first
machine in the world. We've been only taught about the dark continent,
and so I'm saying learn about white racism in the United States.
00:50:39
I would recommend one book in particular, “A Sign for Cain" by Dr.
Wertham, a white psychiatrist who talks about how white people act out
their violence on other people. I would like to close quickly with a piece
called, "A Parable from Another Country."
00:51:06
"A monkey heard this while going to visit python one Christmas Day.
When he arrived, python called aloud to his mother like this, ‘mama,
mama, bring us some food my friend the monkey has arrived,' and
monkey was tired and he was hungry and he thought I am so lucky. I will
eat myself to death and so he rushed to the floor where the well-cooked
meal was placed and monkey said, 'Python,' monkey said, 'Python, go
wash your hands nobody eats with dirty hands," and so he went and
washed his hands and he hurried to where the food was. 'Do you call
those hands washed?" was what python said, 'Have some sense. Use
soap and warm water."
00:51:41
Monkey went and did so and he returned with clean hands and palms up.
‘Now monkey, where were you raised? You come to the table so dirty, and
so smelly, and so black. Get that blackness off of your hands.' So monkey
took a butcher knife and he skinned away the Black skin on his palms.
The palms turned red, red with blood, and tears dropped from his eyes as
the blood dropped from his hands. He was still hungry. He had come to
eat. 'How can you be so uncultured, so unintelligent? Don't touch my food
with your blood. I'm no cannibal.'
00:52:13
Those were pythons words. And monkey started for home, and he heard a
dove singing: ‘Accept him as he is, accept him as he is.” Another
Christmas Day came, and python was going to visit monkey and he too
heard the dove singing, 'Accept him as he is, accept him as he is.'
‘Countryman,’ said monkey to python, 'you are most welcome.' Python
spread his 20 foot length on the floor filling almost every space. 'Mama
monkey,’ her son called, 'bring us the feast,' and food was brought and
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 21
placed on the floor and monkey said on his hunches and he laid his hands
on his knees.
00:52:48
‘Now python, my countryman, get seated.’ Python coiled himself into a
heap like tires of different sizes, 'Mister we don't call that sitting,' said
monkey, 'Now get seated like other folks see what I mean,' and so python
uncoiled himself and he pushed the greater part of his twenty feet outside
the hut. His head was near the pot of food. 'I didn't tell you to lie on your
belly you must sit and to sit properly inside the house,' said monkey like
that.
00:53:17
So python assembled all of himself inside the hut. He started to sit on his
tail and his hand went up, up, up till he pierced through the roof and
monkey ate the food. He took a cutlass and he chopped off python's tail,
and python hurried with the bulk of his length and they both heard the
dove singing, 'Accept him as he is, accept him as he is.' The dove will
sing, 'Accept him as he is, as he is.'"
00:53:44
Many of us have become like the monkey and the python and few of us
sing like the dove. Accept him as he is. Thank you very much.
00:53:54
[the audience applauds]
Lillian Anthony, “What Can You Do?” (transcript), page 22
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