Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever e... Show more
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever else you want to
share?
Zan Christ 0:20
Yeah. So, like you said, I'm saying, Chris, born July 9 1984, in Fargo, North Dakota. I don't know
what you want to know. But, you know, I can tell a little bit A Brief History of my life story now or
later on.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:39
Well, so what about if we start talking about a little bit about your childhood? So... your
childhood, (clarifying), so where did you leave or go to school? And what do you... what do you
recall about your childhood?
Zan Christ 0:54
Yeah, so like I said, I was born in North Dakota and then I moved to Minnesota. I was four years
old. And I grew up in Alexandria, Minnesota. It's a small town, about two and a half hours
Northwest on I 94. And I lived there, you know, from age four to 18 most of my formative years,
and had a good upbringing. I mean, Alexandria, if you're not familiar with it, it's, it's very...
People are very similar, like, most people are white, most people are Christian. Most people are
really conservative. So it's, it's very much a sheltered upbringing. But I, you know, I, my mother
was an educator, fortunately. So like that was really helpful. Having her and she was she was
very liberal too, so that really helps as well. But yeah, so I had a great childhood. In my
neighborhood, I used to hang out with the kids a lot in my neighborhood. My dad was a pastor,
too. So across the street we had another pastor's family Caitlin a group of kids and then five
houses down there was like another pastor and kids so it was like this pastors kids
neighborhood, I don't know some crazy so we hung out a lot. And that was really fun.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:23
So, you mentioned that your family's christian, right? So, what will you say about your family?
like, did you family have a special traditions like any special traditions, such as, maybe things
that they did on holidays, birthdays, maybe a heirlooms, like is there anything that was been
handed down from generation to generation?
Zan Christ 2:45
Yeah. So... my dad was a pastor. And my family comes from like a line of pastors. So, she went
to send me Mary actually here, Augsburg used to be a seminary before the undergraduate split
off and now Luther is the seminary. So, my dad actually went to school. There are here I guess
you could say. And so there's his brother, and my mom side of the family. I come from her
ancestors were Lutheran pastors too. So that's kind of like something they handed down to me
in a way, kind of because, you know, that's just my family. what they've been doing for like their
occupation. is being pastors, I guess. So. That's why I think I'm really interested in religious life
because it's always been part of my family on both sides since my family came over from
Norway in Germany, which I can talk about more later in depth, but I would say that I mean, so I
think they've always been really involved in church. If they weren't like an actual pastor. They
were like a leader. So like, church organist I had my mom was a church organist and like a choir
director and my grandma's dad was a church organist, too. So I think that that's maybe what
they were passed down to me for, like traditions. It's just like the religion of like being interested
in religion as part of a big part of your life, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 4:20
So, um, you mentioned that then you grow up in religion, right? So, if you have to describe it,
what was your religious life growing up? Like maybe a change maybe it was always the same.
Maybe, it was an event that make you change your mind?
Zan Christ 4:43
Yeah. So growing up, I was involved in the ARCA church, which is what Augburg is affiliated
with. So Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which a lot of Norwegians and Germans as
well are and so um, you know, I was really involved in church. You know, I was like a Sunday
school teacher. But I think, you know, when you get to your older teenage years, you start
questioning the religion that you're in, because you're like, you don't know who you are your
identity and you question everything and you're trying to figure out who you are in the world.
And so, I pretty much toward the end of high school was just like, I don't know if this is for me.
And so after I graduated from high school, when I started to when I was in college to become an
atheist, pretty much so that was my life for eight years. I was just practicing nothing, and
eventually converted to Islam and graduate school. So, it was a long path, but I started in high
school just thinking like, do I believe this stuff because it just felt like not a good fit and people
just like didn't have like the answers that I was looking for. If they did try to explain it to me. I just
was like, I don't really think I believe that. It just seems like who I am or, it doesn't make sense to
me so
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:07
And since you said you convert to Christianity... (Restating the question) from Christianity to
Islam, so how was that transition? Like, was there anything that made you uncomfortable at the
beginning? And if so, how you handle it?
Zan Christ 6:21
Yeah. So like I said, I went from Christianity to atheism. So I was converting from atheism to
Islam. So, I mean, for me as an undergrad student, I went to Hamline University which is a
Methodist school and I went to there because they didn't require you to take religion classes.
So, I was like, I really want to be, you know, running as far away as I can from that. So, I ended
up becoming a world religions major though, so academically, I was still like interested in
learning about world religions, but it was just like an academic endeavor for me. And then, so I
took that Islam class, but it was just like a class was, you know, I wasn't really drawn to it at that
time, it was just like, another subject area because I, you know, like I said, growing up from
where I was, I didn't know anything about the world. So it was like, Okay, I'm just learning about
the world because I don't know about it at all. But then by the time I was in grad school, I, you
know, I was like, still trying to atheist thing but I was just, I don't know, being atheist. I was really
unhappy, like really depressed because I had nothing basically, you know, it's kind of like
growing up. You have like with Christianity you have like a community of people, where you go
to church on Sunday and like, go to events and stuff. So, I really think I really missed that aspect
of the religion is just like, being with people. And so, I really didn't like being atheist either
because I felt like I didn't have any meaning or purpose in my life because I'm like, "Well, I don't
believe in anything now". But, and then also just like didn't have a community. So that was like a
struggle that I did was Good for about atheism. But then, finally when I was in grad school, I met
some Somali and Pakistani students who those are Muslim majority of popular countries and
they really just like took me under their wing and you know, I just became like close friends with
them and never for a second to they try to convert me, which I think is like the best way to
convert somebody because growing up you know, people try to like force Christianity upon me
and I really hated that like that really pushed me away. So, the fact that they were just like good
people like was what drew me to like look into Islam. And yeah, I just started like, researching it
on my own and my friends like some of the had to go back to their home countries because of
their visa type. They're only here for a semester. So, that was like really good because then I felt
like they left so I could really just have a look at it by myself without their influence and Yeah, I
just started reading about it. And like, I watched like this, these music videos that I really liked.
because music is such a big part of Christianity in the church that I was like, well, I really, like
really love music. So I wanted to make sure I could still have that part of my life as part of my life
anyway. So, that's like.
Barbara Sabino Pina 9:21
And what makes you feel so attracted to this new religion? When was when was the moment
you said, like, Oh, this is for me. This is my right place.
Zan Christ 9:29
Yeah, exactly. So I think like the people that I met, really exemplified Islam versus like,
Christianity, like this is the United States. It's a Christian majority country, but I feel like a lot of
people are just like, secular Christians are like, just Christian by name, but not actually living it.
And so I think, people it's just like a status symbol, like, Oh, yeah, I'm Christian, but they don't
practice at all. It's like basically, they're atheists, too. So I think growing up like a lot of people
that I knew just, I don't know, they were just not really educated about their faith and not really
living it. And so like meeting these Muslim people, they were like, really knew about their religion
and took it really seriously. And were really like devout. And that really struck me because I
don't know, they just had such a good character that really just inspired me because there were
just so nice and giving. And, they were just like, give you things, just because they're nice
people. Like, I don't know, growing up, my family would never do that. I don't know, I think...I
think it's a cultural thing, too. It's not just religion, but part of it is religion. But I think, you know,
European Americans are very individualistic, so they're not, they're very much like about
themselves. Hence the word individualistic individual, and I, you know, Pakistani, and Somali
people are from collectivist culture. So it's all about like your community and so people are just
more open. And sharing and that's like a cultural thing. But it has to do with religion too. But I
think just their kindness is what drew me to the religion. I was just like, well, they seem so
happy, you know, like I want to be happy too. And they're just so giving and growing up, people
aren't as giving like that I was used to. So I think just the people is what really drew me to the
religion.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:23
So you mentioned culture, right?. So what are a few common misconceptions that people have
about Muslims?
Zan Christ 11:31
Yeah, so many, especially in the media, I think Islam is like one of the most hated religions right
now. I mean, it's... In the United States, our president even is just so terrible. "Donald Trump"
...for future if you're listening in the future and don't know what I'm talking about, but I mean,
even just trying to put in policies to like, you know, band people like and that's just so
unconstitutional and, you know, people just they hate what they don't know. Like they the fear of
the unknown, basically. So I think, you know, they just don't know, Muslims. I mean, Islam is the
third largest religion in the United States, but it's like less than 1% So, you know, it's not like
people know a lot of Muslims I don't think so. I think people just believe what they see on like
Fox News, and it's just like, all negatively portrayed, but I think like I went to Pakistan a couple
of years ago and you know, we have like black lives matter here and like people are shooting
like black people. So, I think people think like America is a dangerous place or whatever. And so
people just have like misconceptions about different people in parts of the world. So I think we
receive media from parts of the world we're like, obviously stuff like that is happening but like
here, people like see like shootings all the time. People think that's America. So I think, you
know, that's probably where like, the Islamophobia stems from but I think I have so much
negative activity to, to try and like, correct, I guess, from the media.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:15
Yeah. So did you or have you ever experienced any type of stereotype about you because of
the way you dress? Maybe the way you look? Maybe because you did this transition? Have you
ever experienced something like that?
Zan Christ 13:30
Yeah. So what was the beginning of the question? Just like, have I experienced,
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:33
like any type of stereotype or prejudice? Yeah.
Zan Christ 13:38
So, my, my own family, you know, they weren't thrilled that I converted to Islam, obviously,
letting you know that I come from like, generations of pastors, you know, I mean, obviously, they
take the religion that they are in very seriously and it's like, you know, it's part of who they are,
and... so I think, you know, having children and having your child convert to any religion, I'm
sure it's super hard. So, I don't blame them at all, but I'm just you know, so it was not easy for
them. When I first started hanging out with these friends, my mom was like, kind of telling me
not to hang out with them a little bit. And so, you know, that was kind of hard. She herself is
from like a small town in North Dakota. So, you know, Alexandria, like I said, is very... kind of far
away from like, the Twin Cities but like, a small town, North Dakota is even more excluded from
like, I think, a major city so I think, you know, that's kind of why she was more cautious. But
anyway, so that was like one thing where my family wasn't, you know, excited that I was
hanging out with these people and then when I did convert like back then I was on Facebook.
I'm not on Facebook anymore, but back then I was. And basically, I like announced that I was
like converting to Islam and I was inviting people to like my ceremony basically, it's called the
"Shahada". And like, I did it on like a group chat. And I only invited some people, mostly
Muslims, and then like some of my family, like people who I wanted to come, and my dad was
like, don't do it. And like that was like crappy. So, I like shut my Facebook down immediately
after that, and obviously did convert like I was in grad school, so I'm like older you know, so I
can do what I want. Um, so that was another like negative experience, my family. And then after
that... after I converted... My niece was having her baptism. And I don't remember who did it but
either it was my brother and his wife or my parents. But basically they asked me like not to wear
the "hijab" in the church to like the baptism. I think my parents were the ones who asked me
what they were like asking for my brother and his wife, I can't remember but either they
delivered the message or they are the ones are asking it. But, so that was like really crappy
because, you know, I just converted so it was like really excited to be Muslim. It was a huge
positive change for me. And for them, it was kind of like, they didn't want me to be, you know,
Muslim in public, basically, like, stay in the closet. Like, don't be yourself. So, that was I didn't
like that. But, I I called up my friend, one of my friends from Pakistan, and I was like, What
should I do? You know, because I was a new Muslim I, you know, I didn't know as much as I
know now, like, I wasn't solid in my faith. And, and they were like, well, if your family asks you to
do something, and that it's not against Islam, you should honor your parents. And they were like,
just take off your Hijab and I was like, are you sure? You know, because I, you know, I'm like,
excited to be Muslim. I want to be Muslim, but it's not required to wear a headscarf in Islam. And
so they were like, just take it off. And so I was like, okay, so I basically took it off for the church
service and then put it back on afterwards. So that was like, a really negative experience of my
family. But, I think, you know, they know not to do that now. And also, I know that I, I don't
know... I should probably should just wear it... I don't know, like, so I think we're more, "okay
with the situation". But, I won't forget that experience. And otherwise, I mean, you know, one
time we were pulled over by Homeland Security when we went to when we went to Canada,
when we came back to the United States we got pulled over so that was really not a great
experience. too, which I feel like wouldn't have happened if we were not Muslims. But those are
like some of the negative experiences they had. They're probably more of like micro
aggressions, but I can't remember them.
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:14
What about good experiences since when since when you convert to Islam... to Muslim? When
do you feel like "oh my god I can I can I feel like this is incredible." I'm feeling this is a great
experience. I feel like I'm gaining a lot from this place.
Zan Christ 18:32
Yeah. So I think when I converted, like I said, You know, I was in grad school and I went to
school in Mankato, which is a small town and when I first got there, like I didn't know anybody
because you know, you're going to school at a new place, you know, no one and I am an
introvert. So, you know, I can struggle with making friends because I'm like, "socially awkward"
or whatever. So that was like a struggle for me. But I think, you know, a lot of the local like white
people were not actually like open to being friends with you because I think Minnesota can be
really cliquey, like people just hang out with people that like they've known their whole lives. And
it's kind of hard to break into, like, if you're not from there, but with the international students,
they were just so open to being friends and so I think, for me, it was just positive because it's
kind of like your new family or whatever. And so that was like I said, what drew me to Islam and
like what kept me there is people just so kind I don't know, it's, it's so hard to describe, but
they're just so giving and they give you like all this food and clothing and gifts and you're just
like, "Oh my gosh, you're so nice". I don't even know. So I think that's what drew me to the
religion and kept me there because people were just living Islam they had such a good
character and they were so kind and hospitable and I just really love that feeling. I don't know...
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:04
Since you were both Christian and Islam... at one... like in some part of your life. So, I see
there's like a relationship between Islam and Christianity that deserves carefully exploration for
many angles. So, how does the average Christian relate to the average Muslim? And how could
the Christian begin to convert in a respectful manner with a Muslim about matters of faith?
Zan Christ 20:30
Yeah, just like how to hit interfaith dialogue or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I think you
know, depending on who you are, I think we can be relatively easy just come with an open mind
and know that there's going to be similarities and differences. I think people get really hung up
on the differences but, you know, especially maybe like a world religions major like Islam,
Judaism and Christianity all are so similar to each other, like I am studying Hinduism right now
just for fun and reviewing, and it's so different, like, in a lot of ways so I think you know that
Islam is so similar I mean, you know, Mary, there's like a book in the Quran named "After Mary"
and she is spoken so highly of and she's mentioned more in the Quran in the Bible. So I think
that's like an interesting fact that like, Christians don't know. But I think people really get caught
up on like the thing about like, that Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet and like a messiah
and like a messenger from God. But, Christians think that Jesus is God. And I think they so
many people obsess about that, that really like that's just one difference. You know, like, there's
just so many similarities that I think just trying to follow is on similarities. But honestly, one of my
best friends is Christian and what we talked about, it's just like regular everyday stuff we don't
even like talk about religion and I think that's how you should have interfaith dialogue with
people is just like focus on your humanity because everyone loves eating, love sleeping loves
their family, you know, like just basic like human stuff, or like sports or music or whatever you
like. So, I think that's, you know, just connect on a human level and just let your friendship grow.
You know, that way, I think is as the healthiest way to talk about interfaith dialogue as just have
an open mind, I guess, I don't know and accept that you just will have differences. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 22:46
Totally agree. (laughs) So, is there anything that you learn from Christianity or from any other
religion that you still conserve today and maybe you apply to your this new religion to Muslim, to
Islam?
Zan Christ 23:01
Um, I mean, Christianity is such a huge part of Islam anyway. So, it's kind of just like, you're
adding on to what you already know or what you already believe in. So, I mean, I don't I can't
think of anything like specific but I don't know. I don't know, for me though, I don't know,
because I left is Christianity. I don't want to say it's like a negative experience, but like, I don't
actively go for that like, like my niece and nephew sing in church all the time. And, I go listen to
them saying, but every time I go into the church, I kind of would rather not go so I don't know.
So, it's kind of like, I don't know if I would word it of like, I take from Christianity, I don't know
because I kind of still kind of like to go the opposite direction, but I don't know. Yeah. That's a
hard question (laughs) I don't know. I have no idea.
Barbara Sabino Pina 24:07
Totally fine. So, um, is there like maybe an advice or something that you would like to say to
those people that asked you convert to Islam or dead are in the transition of converting for an
any other religion to slam?
Zan Christ 24:24
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was really difficult process because, you know, I mean, I was a
student so I think your life is a little crazy on your students really overwhelming time in your life
because your life is so focused on studies and it's so demanding. So, I think that was hard
because you know, all of my resources, we're also all students, so we're all like overwhelmed.
So, I really just need a lot of support like, when you first convert to another religion, you need a
lot of support, but you're not always able to get that because everyone's kind of busy. So that
can be kind of stressful. But just keep trying, I guess. I mean, I don't know. Try and look
elsewhere for resources eventually. I mean, my life is a lot better now because I'm married,
honestly, I mean, but that's not always going to work for everybody but I think I found somebody
who is Muslim and so like he's like my not my whole support system but like a huge support
system that when I was single, I didn't have so eventually you know, I graduated from with my
master's degree and then I met him so that's like how I I really felt like supported in the end
otherwise, just being a single person and depending on like your friends in school they're also
students was just it was pretty difficult. I mean, especially because you're learning so much like
how to pray that was like...the probably the most difficult part about converting is... you have to
learn the whole prayer in Arabic. And so that's stressful. I mean, I don't know the language at all.
So that was hard. Because one of my mentors, you know, was busy all the time. So I think that
was just a struggle, but just keep trying, you know, don't give up (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:20
So let's talk a little bit about your job right now. So, how do I just think your complex identity of
being European or American convert to Islam might help you or have helped you to make a
change in the world and how your daily job of multifaith work is related to this?
Zan Christ 26:41
Yeah, for sure. So, right now, like, I am kind of trying to like start my own business and like
brand of doing like multifaith work. My last job was that I was working on a college campus as
their multifaith leader working college students. So, that was like my last job. So, you know, it's
very much what I like to do what I do. And so what I'm wanting to do now is like go to
workplaces and teach them about like religious diversity and like how to be an ally to like
interfaith co workers. So that's what I'm working on right now. And I think, you know, I've done
trainings like, at my two jobs before this one that I used to work at the Science Museum, and I
did trainings on like, Islam and Muslims, and people just really don't know anything about Islam,
and they really crave that knowledge. So, when you teach them just super basic information, it's
huge. So I think that's, you know, I'm a bridge builder or whatever. I mean, that's really cliche,
but it's true. I mean, I kind of bridges the two worlds and I think, you know, most people in the
workplace in jobs that I've worked are also white people. So, I think having another white
person, teacher them, unfortunately, like they listen to me more, because you're kind of on the
same level of them. So I think it's really helped because I'm kind of like helping them figure out
like, Oh, what is this Islam thing? What are Muslims doing? So, I think it's an advantage in a
way, but it's kind of sad, you know, because it's racist. But, I guess I'm doing good. So it's not all
bad. So, I think it's a big advantage of bringing this life mysterious religion and culture to people
that may have an upbringing like myself, you know, where you just don't have exposure to any
type of diversity at all. So,
Barbara Sabino Pina 28:41
So basically, you talk... you talk a little bit about this, but like...when you do this talks, what is
your message? What is the message that you're trying to send? In... What...do you want to be
remembered for?
Zan Christ 28:57
Yeah, I just want to teach people like interface literacy and cooperation, just teaching them
basic information about world religions. I mean, 70% of people living in states are Christian. So
most people are Christian, or at least, you know, were raised in it, and maybe they're not
anymore. I just want to teach them basic information about like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism,
Buddhism, you know, other major religions and teach them that those are normal people,
normal religions, and just try and teach them literacy because I think people are really
uncomfortable talking about religion. I think especially in the past, because, you know,
expclusivism was really kind of a dominant thinking. And now people are more moving toward
inclusivism and pluralism. So, you know, pluralism, you know, if you are the listeners, I don't
know, or not familiar with pluralism. It's kind of like being more open and accepting to other
points of view versus like exclusivism, which is my religion is the only right one everyone else is
wrong kind of a thing. So I think the world is moving toward that but they just don't have the
knowledge to understand like specifically what other people think so I think that's pretty much
what I have been teaching people and continue to teach them and also learn like I said, I'm
diving into Hinduism right now like again, and it's it's really fun just learning about another world
religion that is not my own, I don't know because then I can understand people from around the
world.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:37
What approach you will do when you're trying to maybe get to other people to learn about new
religions, not just about Christianity, or maybe Islam, maybe about other religions, what would
you...What will be your approach to them, like how you will approach them so they can listen to
you instead of being rejected about what you're saying?
Zan Christ 31:01
Yeah, I mean, so like one present. Like I said, the presentation I'm working on right now is like
how to be an ally to your like interfaith coworkers. So, I'm kind of going through like, because
most people have jobs most people work. So I figured that's a good place to like target people
have teaching them about world religion. So I'm going through like, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism,
Hinduism, and then like a whole bunch of other world religions, like sikhism, and behind and like
teaching them about like workplace accommodations and that really helps because people
know then like, what kind of combinations they have to offer people. So like dietary restrictions,
you know, clothing, prayer and gender relations, like a lot of people don't want to like shake
hands or touch people of another gender. So, that's kind of like how I'm teaching them is like,
basic practical things day to day, not Like, necessarily like philosophical or like theological
things, I think that's really helpful to teach people because it's just more practical knowledge that
they can actually use day to day. So that's kind of what like, the presentation that I'm working on
right now, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 32:17
Yeah. And since your time talking about presentations, projects, these things, like what project
maybe organization, maybe congregation, maybe part of just a big thing. Have you done? Or
have you been part of that you feel most proud of?
Zan Christ 32:35
Yeah. I think, you know, my last job. I worked at Hamline University and I did religious diversity
work there. So I really loved doing that.That was kind of like my dream job. But I guess, I don't
know. Two other things I'll mention...Well, during that, like I did, like a TEDx talk. I don't know if
you saw like the link and the bottom of my email signature, but like I did a TEDx on, like my
conversion story, basically. And that was something I'm really proud of, because the TED talks
are kind of a big deal. So, that was during my last job. So that's been like one of my proudest
achievements and I talked about, you know, everything I pretty much just talked about now, like,
"world religions are great, you should respect them, learn about them" um before then... I would
say the best experience of my life would be that I served as a guest Imam and Khatib at the
women's Mosque of America in Los Angeles, California. So again, that's when I was still a
Hamline. And so, basically, I love public speaking and I had donated some money to this
women's group, and they had sent me an email saying "thank you for your donation" or
whatever. And I recieved emails and backlinks. You know if you know any like that women's
leadership conferences I can attend or speak out, let me know. And they're like, why don't you
come speak here and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever, what are you talking
about so. So, anyway, so I spent like seven months researching a few topics and then
eventually, like, wrote the speech. And I went there and gave a Khutbah like a sermon like a
pastor would do in church on Sunday for one of their Jummahs services. And so that was just
the best experience of my life I, you know, really enjoyed. I think just writing the speech was
really helpful because I got to research a topic that I didn't know. I knew about it, but like surface
level knowledge or had heard things and I wanted to research them myself, and like really learn
in depth, that information so I wrote about women's empowerment within Islam. And the
recording is available online. If you're interested in listening to it, I think only like 20-30 minutes
but so that was amazing. Just doing the research alone, even before delivering the speech was
just such a phenomenal experience. Because I felt so empowered within my own religion and
then going there and delivering it and all the women gaining the knowledge too and being with
like minded women. I myself am very liberal progressive for thinking left leaning, which is really
a minority in Minnesota. Most Muslims are quite conservative, which is really difficult for me,
because I can't really be out as like a liberal and if you are people really just let you know that
you're wrong. And you're just like so that's really difficult, because there are a lot a lot of liberal
Muslims that live in the United States in the world, but there's not really a locally here. So, that
was really nice to just meet other people who think like I do in Los Angeles. I mean, California is
a lot more liberal anyway as a state but so that was amazing. And meeting the founder, she's
just phenomenal. I got to hang out with her. So that was the best experience of my life and I felt
like a continuation of like my family lineage because they were like all pastors. So I was like a
new Imam just for like a day. So that was just phenomenal. And then before then, my best live
experience before then was working at the Science Museum. I needed a place to pray and they
didn't have one. And several places that I worked at before then had places to pray. But this one
didn't, I was surprise. So, I worked there for two years on this project, and basically, I built a
quiet space there. So that's a huge accomplishment that I also felt really excited about because
I needed a place to pray. I wasn't the only one. So, I felt like the secular multifaith quiet space.
And, you know, it was like a prayer room and since I left, they've built two more spaces there.
So that's been phenomenal. But basically, I built like a Masjid or like a secular Masjid, Masjid is
a place of worship for Muslims, but that was, you know, like one of my ancestors, I think it was
like my mom's mom's dad's dad. He was a pastor in North Dakota and he built like 11
congregations in North Dakota, he died young, and so like, I felt like also like it was a
continuation of his legacy because I kind of felt like, it wasn't like an actual church, but it was like
a prayer space so people can pray every day. So those are probably like my proudest life
accomplishments is the TEDx being a Imam for a service and doing this. And then building a
quiet space would be like, all very interface initiatives.
Barbara Sabino Pina 37:47
So, you mentioned the talk.... the TED talk, can you talk a little bit more... a little bit more about
it, like...you mentioned a little bit how was experienced with maybe, what was the talk about
what did you what was the message you sent, how... a little bit more about how did you
prepared? Who helped you maybe a fact, fun fact about the experience.
Zan Christ 38:10
Yeah. So as somebody who has loved public speaking for a long time, I think doing a TED talk
is like the ultimate like, you've made it. It was a TEDx, which is not as cool like a TEDx
independently organized, but so. So,for years, I was like, "I really want to do something" and
then I was working at Hamline, which is also where I went to school. And some of these
students were like, we're gonna put on a TEDx conference, and I was like, "I have to apply" and
someone who like nominated me too, and they're like, "we heard that you are amazing. You
should like apply for this" like, and so I applied and it was a phenomenal experience. When I
first applied. I thought my topic was going to be, I wanted to do, how Islam and Muslim how
Islam and Mohammed or feminis. But ended up you know, my student actually it was all student
led us to college students, which was a really phenomenal experience. They were just amazing
students who organized it. But anyway, so one of the students that was like my mentor, she was
a college student and she was trying to help me with my speech. And eventually, like, I changed
my topic a whole bunch of times, because people pretty much when they meet me, like, only
want to hear about my convert story, which is fine, but like, that's the most fascinating part about
who I am. So that's basically what she convinced me to like talk about and so I talked about, like
my conversion story and, and then I kind of tried to like frame it in a lens of like, interfaith work is
important. You should be an ally into like, all world religions. So that's, that's pretty much the gist
of my talk. It's 11 minutes, so it's really short. So it's not like painfully long for people to listen to.
So that was the experience and It was phenomenal. I have like 20... 200,000 views or whatever.
So it's doing pretty well. But yeah, it was a it was a huge privilege and honor I was really grateful
to be selected. It was really competitive. But... yeah, the students were it was it was really
interesting being mentored by student you know, because usually, like I mentoring students, so
that was like, Cool role reversal, like my sister was assigned to. She was so talented and like, I
just felt like she was like a college professor. She's so smart. So I really I loved working with her
and I'm glad she, you know, helped me to like craft my topic because you know, if that's what's
most interesting about me, okay, fine, like I'll talk about that. But it's sometimes I get tired of
telling the story again and again, because it then it's like, that's the only thing people are
interested in you like, maybe it's, you know, an example of like someone who's African
American. It's like, that's the only thing you know that you might focus on them, and their You
know, they're like, I'm more than just African American, you know? So that can be exhausting.
But that's okay (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 41:08
You mentioned also the Science Museum, right? So, um, what did you do there? Like, what did
you learn? Well, how was experience? What would you like to share about that?
Zan Christ 41:17
Yeah, I really enjoyed working at the Science Museum. The company itself is just phenomenal,
the culture is positive when I was working there, but like I said, you know, we didn't have a place
for me to pray. So that was just like something where I was like, "I'm gonna do this", like no
matter what, and I had like a low level job, but like, I was like, I don't care. You know, like, just
because I have a low level of power doesn't mean I can't use my influence as a human being to
get this done. So I think that was really cool and like really empowering for me to be like, it
doesn't matter if you're like this low level employee, you can still get like amazing things done.
So that was really cool. At the time, we had just gotten a new president and she was super,
super supportive. She was from California, of course, too. So she's very, like, used to a lot of
diversity, I think more than Minnesota. I'm very liberal and very accepting. So I wanted to talk to
her and I wanted to talk to her VP of HR. And I just was like, you know, "I want to get this done.
Can you help me?" and I didn't know what I was doing it first, of course, but I was just like,
eventually, I know, I'm going to get a quiet space. I just don't know like, how I'm going to get it or
like where it's going to be. So I worked with our VP of HR most of the time on the project, and
she was just phenomenal human being like super nice. And yeah, we did it like it was just, yeah,
it was like a two year long project is a long process. But yeah, I'm really proud that I did that. I
don't really, you know, talk about that very often because being from Minnesota, it's like rude to
like brag about yourself or whatever, but I wish I would probably talk about it more because I
think more more workplaces need to have like these quiet spaces because, you know, I mean,
it's very much a secular issue to like, employees just need like a quiet place to just like chill out
like on your break or whatever. So it's not just like Muslims need a place to go pray five times a
day or whatever, like, plenty of people are into like Buddhism and like meditating and such. So it
really helps like the staff so much, like I said, after I left, they've developed two more spaces, so
they have two for employees, like internal and then they have one external for the like outside
visitors. So, you know, I influenced them enough to like build tomorrow after I left so that was
just such a positive place to be, so... I'm really happy that they were open to you
know...achieving this resource for... for employees that I think really helped a lot. I was the only
Muslim working there.
Barbara Sabino Pina 44:10
So, you have worked with a lot of people during your life, right? Doing all these awesome
projects and awesome talks. So did you have any problems maybe, on opinions,while you were
doing this project because we know that when we're working, sometimes we're going to differ in
thoughts and you need to handle it, and to meet... like to find a way to just overcome the things
and work a good thing.
Zan Christ 44:41
So, yeah, I don't know if this is a good example, but like I said, I think the hardest thing is just
being a liberal Muslim in Minnesota, because, I mean, eventually I just had to go to LA but like, I
can't always just go to LA to like, hang out with liberal Muslims. That's probably been the best a
struggle for me is just finding a community that I can fit into. Because pretty much like I said,
most Muslims in Minnesota are super conservative and I just don't at all relate to them. So the
way that I have dealt with that is pretty much I just have like, all my liberal friends are like non
Muslims pretty much so my two best friends are actually both atheists. They're both not
religious, but they're like my liberal friends, one from grad school, one from the Science
Museum. And, so those are like my two best friends. And then I have my a lot of Jewish friends
also, like really liberal. And then I have some of my Christian friends. So I think I basically like
built this community of my network of people, but they're like, not Muslims. So that's kind of
been a struggle, I guess, like, so basically, I don't know, I just have had to look for like resources
elsewhere. So I don't know if that answers the question. But otherwise, yeah, the actual projects
I was doing, I don't know. I think just finding allies is pretty much. Also Yeah, just getting out the
same thing is like, you always have people that will hate you or discriminate against you or not
understand you. But I think the biggest way to battle that is just like, ignore your haters and just
like hang out with people who accept you and love you. Because eventually either they'll come
around or they'll just like, be a hate person, like, forever, like you can't change them. So just
focus on like, people are actually positive, which is why like for me, I think I was really drawn to
working with college students, because college students are just open like it's the first time
they're living on their own for the first time they want to like from their own opinions. They don't
necessarily want to be like the same person that they were growing up so they're really open to
hearing like, any and all information then based on that all these opinions and they'll form their
own opinion. So it's kind of why I got my master's in student affairs because I, I don't know, like,
I really love college students, they're just so they're open to hear all opinion like diverse
opinions, I guess. And then based on that they're smart enough to like figure out who they are.
So I think that's pretty much what I would I put my efforts in this people were actually open to
like, okay, like, "you're different from me, great!". Like, I respect that. I'm not gonna, like hate
you, you know? Because when you do...People who are resistant, it's best to I mean, I
personally, I just don't engage with them. I think other people really like conflict and like debate,
but I'm not like one of those people. So I mean, I'm definitely Midwestern, or we do not like
conflict. So I pretty much just choose to like just ignore them basically, which some people might
say is not healthy, but I'm like, whatever works for you. This just works best for me like No, it's
just not worth to get into. I'm just like, I'm happy for you. That's what you think like, I respect you.
I think some students like, I've spoken at Bethel, which is a pretty conservative school, but I
have a lot of like five liberal friends that work there that are professors. And I go into their
classes and like this one girl was just like, definitely an exclusive is like, she was just like, you
know, my religion is the one and only one it's cracked. And I was just like, you know, thank you
for sharing your opinion. And that was it. That's all I have to say. And that's fine. You know, I
don't know if she's changed it all, but you just have to be like, respectful to people. I think that's
what really Islam has taught me is just like when people are mainly used to like, be respectful,
but it's not always easy to just be like, okay, you're listening to me. Okay. Thank you, you know,
just like, I don't know, growing up that's not like really how it was like so. Talk, like I don't know.
So that's, that's pretty much what I would say.
Barbara Sabino Pina 49:07
So your college students, so what do you feel you learn from them? And what do you hope they
learn from you?
Zan Christ 49:14
Yeah, I learned a lot from college students. I mean, especially, I mean, young people in general,
I think, you know, the world is constantly changing. And college students have so much to offer
in terms of like, they communicate differently, I think, you know, like Snapchat and like, I don't
know, they're really open to adapting with technology. I think there's a huge advantage to that. I
think you can learn so much from young people. So yeah, definitely... Like, one of my favorite
college professors is always talking about how students are teaching them, you know, so like,
That's so cool. So it's like both ways, but, I mean, hopefully I can offer them something to and
I'm 35. So I definitely think I'm glad I'm older, like, I would never go back to be young again, that
was such a difficult time in my life, like, I do not want to be on. I'm really grateful that I'm older.
I've learned a lot. So, hopefully I can offer them something too but I mean, definitely, young
people are great. Young people that keep me energized to older people, we're just tired and
tired. Anyway.
Barbara Sabino Pina 50:30
So my final question would be, how... what does faith mean for you, and how this concept or
definition has changed over time?
Zan Christ 50:43
Yeah, I think, you know, religion or faith or whatever, I think has changed for me a lot. I think.
You know, growing up you know, I was Christian and the Christian environment and then I was
atheist and then I was Muslim. And I think, you know, it's changed so much over the years. But
even just being Muslim, like, when I first converted, like, I don't want to say I took it to the
extreme, but I was trying to like be like super devout. And I realized that wasn't really right for
me like I didn't have to be so hardcore of like to do like all these things. I think it's religion is
whatever you make of it. And so, for me, I kind of I don't want to say I'm secular because that
maybe sounds negative too. But I think I am not like super religious, honestly. My husband is a
lot more religious than I am and I don't know this just like are practicing level am happy with, like
my relationship with God. You know, and I don't know how it works for me. I'm happy. You
know, like, wear a headscarf. So people can like tell that I'm Muslim. I think that's important to
me, but I don't know if I wasn't wearing it. I think people would just be like, oh, there's another
Christian or atheist girl, I don't think you could tell that I'm Muslim. So I think that, to me is really
important, like an identity piece. And like dressing modestly, I guess. But I don't know. That's
something I've struggled with too. Because I've come to a point in my life where I really like,
Miss run like tank tops and shorts, because it's like, summertime, you know, and you want to be
like that. But that's just it was like a temporary thing. But yeah, like my religion is always
changing. Honestly. I mean, like five years from now, I'm sure. I'll be in a totally different place.
Honestly, I think I'm a really open honest communicator. Like if people judge me like, I don't
care, like I'd rather just be honest. So I think I'm happy with constant change and improving
myself honestly, because, you know, I've learned so much about like, what religion is not to me,
even though I thought it was supposed to be and I'm like, whatever that stuff's not important, like
maybe to somebody but like to me, I'm just like, chill. I don't know. Whatever...
Barbara Sabino Pina 53:22
Is there anything else that we didn't get doing this interview today that you would like to cover?
Maybe a comment additional thoughts?
Zan Christ 53:31
No, I mean, I think we've covered pretty much most of my life story. Yeah, just pretty much, the
TEDx thing, the Mosque thing and the quiet space, those are like the three things that my
recent life have really defined me and really something that I'm proud of, and I want to continue
to do more work like that. I don't know what my next thing will be. But, you know, like I said, I'm
trying to like start my own business. So hopefully, I can like, tour the country or the world and
like teach people about either Islam or world religions, because I think there's so much to learn.
Because, you know, I think people really, especially in the United States are really just not
exposed to the world's. I think depending on where you live some other places in the world,
you're a lot more exposed to like the rest of the world. But I think the US we have a lot to learn.
So I'm excited to try and like, teach what I can and also be open to learn from other people. So I
don't really have anything else to add that we havenât talked about
Barbara Sabino Pina 54:40
We're looking forward to that. Looking forward to that, to see you doing more job and awesome
things in the future. So thank you so much for your time today.
Zan Christ 54:50
Thank you. It was fun.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing ... Show more
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in
this oral history project. I want to remind you that this may be published as part of the Oral
History Archives project at Augsburg University. And I need your permission to record this
conversation. So, do you agree to be, for this conversation to be recorded?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:46
Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:47
Okay. So why don't you introduce yourself and just say, when and where were you born? And
whatever else you want to share about yourself?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:55
Okay, thank you, Barbara, for the opportunity to be here and share with you. My name is
Nasmath Amegankpoe, originally from Republic of Benin in West Africa. Born and raised in
Benin, as a Muslim. Since 2001, where I migrated here to US following my husband. So,
currently live in Minnesota, and that where I've lived since 2001 with two kids, two young adults
(laughs). Yes, and I'm a registered nurse by background.
Barbara Sabino Pina 1:37
Um, why don't we talk a little bit about since you mentioned your family, um, why don't you
introduce a little bit about your family? Like, maybe your parents? You have any partner, or your
children?
Nasmath Aldrin 1:54
Yes, absolutely. I was born in Benin. And my mom actually is the elementary school teacher. My
dad was an accountant. He's passed away now since 95. And so I just grew up in, you know, in
a Muslim family, Muslim environment, Muslim culture. And married actually, right as I was
moving to US, and so been living here since 2001 with my husband and my two kids.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:30
Beautiful. Um, so you mentioned that you were born in Benin, or the Republic of Benin, long
time ago. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your childhood, like, where do
you... like the neighborhood, you lived in? How did the people look like around you? What type
of culture do you experience growing up? And things like that?
Nasmath Aldrin 2:57
Absolutely. Growing up was a lot of fun, really different from US, I have to say. Just in the fact
that we went to school, of course, it's a topical country. We went to school in the morning from
eight to twelve. And then we came back home, we walk pretty much all the distances, didn't
have to ride a car. Well, you know how to take that bus. My dad does have a chauffeur-driven
car, but some-sometimes when he's, you know, he wants to, you know, just wanted to play this a
little bit, they will drive us to school, but otherwise, it was walking everywhere. And which, which
was a good thing, really. And, you know, the places also was very nice around the house, you
know, family were over, pretty much every day, the weekend. There was always something in
the neighborhood, we were just, you know, it was a, the neighborhood itself was a big, I will say
big family, you know, big family member or we could be in anybodies house, you know, and
without any worries. And any, anybody in the neighborhood or, you know, parent, we're
considered our parent. So you get in trouble anyway (laughs). It follows you (laughs), you can't
really (laughs), you can't really get away with anything, but, you know, it was a lot of fun, you
know, play and of course, we had to be at home for our daily prayers, you know, so, the school
schedule was perfect, and at the same time, you know, on weekends, we, we went to our
Islamic school to learn about our faith. And, and so, you know, mainly. But very fun, a lot of fun.
A lot of activities just between each other. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 5:05
Awesome. That sounds like a lot of fun. Um, I'm wondering, so you were mentioned, you
mentioned a little bit about your neighborhood and a little bit about, like, how you will gather with
your family all together. Um, so I'm wondering since you said that you move you now move into
United States, but you were born in Benin. Why did you come to America? Or how did that
process go? Was it your parents who brought you here? Was it you came here for yourself? A
little bit of the process of the immigration process?
Nasmath Aldrin 5:42
Yeah. Actually, in college, in my first year in college is when I met my husband, my, you know,
current husband. And so we met and I came here actually following him. I was still finishing my
school, when he moved to US. So about two years before me, he moved to us, following the it's
called "diversity visa". And so he came in, it was just a natural thing to follow Him. When I was
done with my bachelor.
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:21
Awesome, do you know, did your husband ever told you like, why the United States? Was it like
an opportunity he had here? Or? Like, basically, why specifically, the United States out of all the
countries?
Nasmath Aldrin 6:40
Yeah, good. Actually, it was a time where Bill Clinton, you know, was the President of the United
States. And he started a program called "diversity visa". So basically, they extend to different
countries around the world. Certain amount of visa is also called "lottery visa". And that anyone
who, you know, played that year, you know, there was a certain amount that was allocated, and
my husband happened to play that year. And he was a chemical engineer, he graduated and
was just had just started working. And somebody talked to him about the lottery visa. And so he
really liked it, because he had always wanted to go abroad, you know, and he wanted better
things for the family. He wanted to go abroad. And so when that opportunity came, he played,
you know, this lottery visa, and he won, you know, he was one of those people that were picked
for that year to get that visa. And so that's how he came here. And of course, naturally, when I...
I wanted to stay back and finish my degree. And so I followed him as soon as I was done.
Barbara Sabino Pina 8:05
Awesome. And go, how was that process? If you don't mind me asking, what...after he came
here was he the one who requested you to come? and How long did all that process take?
Nasmath Aldrin 8:20
Yeah, it was um... Yes, he requested me to come. Of course, he has sent like an invite to, you
know, for me to come and how long it take, I think he will know better (laughs). I think he started,
I want to say he started the process right before I graduated the year, right before I graduated in
the same year, that was in 2... in 1999. In 1999, and so it probably took about I'm gonna say
about maybe about a couple of months to a year. And so and so he invited me and then I, you
know, I came in, I came and joined him, you know, for the first few um... I want to say for the first
two years, clearly, I want to stay home, stay at home mom, I did not work. And, you know, in
those same years, you know, I had about three to four years, I had my two kids and so I stayed
home to raise them till they were a year and a half and just about a year. And after that is when I
actually we actually decided for me to walk outside of the house. And in then, you know, that's
how my career, you know, my working career started in us and I worked initially as a nursing
assistant that I was, you know, trying to get my degree converted here and that took some
classes, and then I was able to, to go for my life, hence the registered nurse here in US.
Barbara Sabino Pina 10:09
So where did you go and leave when you arrived, in the United States?
Nasmath Aldrin 10:14
I came straight to Minnesota. He was in Minnesota, yes, he was living in Minnesota at the time,
we lived in Roseville. And, you know, at the end of 2001, after our daughter was born, we
moved into a two-bedroom apartment in North temple. And, you know, about two years after
that, close to me having my second child is when we moved to a house that my husband
purchased at the time in White bear. And that's where, you know, both kids go went to
elementary school, middle school, and it's in their high school that we actually moved to Maple
Grove. And currently, we live in Brooklyn Park, and they are both in college.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:14
And that's awesome. That is really awesome to hear. Why Minnesota? Do you know why your
husband came specifically to Minnesota? And why you both stayed so long?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:26
(Laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:26
And not moving to any other state?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:29
That's a good question. He actually came, he came in stayed with a friend in Alexandria,
Virginia. And, you know, after he stayed there for a few months, he really wanted to be able to,
you know, to continue his education. And he also saw that the job, there was a big... the job
markets there. He was working in a in restaurants, you know, just the little job, you know, to, to
be able to survive. And he realized that it was kind of competitive, but not was not, you know,
was not, I will say what, was not really the job that he wanted to do, really, he really wanted to
pursue his education. And so and it was not paying that well, either. So at some point, he
decided he needed to separate and get his own place. And somebody actually, at the time, told
him that Minnesota was a good place to get a good job and to get a better paying job, and
where he could actually continue his education. And that's how he moved to Minnesota. So at
the time, when I came, he was already in Minnesota. And so I, you know, I just stayed there. Of
course, it was a big shock on the... I came in January, the weather was really cold, it was harsh.
So you know, I did not hesitate when he was like, "you want to just stay home for a few years?".
I'm was like, "absolutely!. I don't want to go out in this weather". That's for sure. And so, you
know, and so that's, that's how I that's how we stayed in Minnesota. And we kind of you know,
as every year, we will be like, you know, we need to move to a warmer state. But then we were
thinking about a good place for the kids education. And we realized Minnesota was one of the
states that offered a good education program for the kids. I think that was the main reason why
even though the weather was harsh, and we we felt like we should move each time we thought
about the kid and just stay back. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:55
So coming back a little bit a few minutes ago, when you mentioned about your career. You
mentioned that eventually, you started coming here to didn't work at the beginning. And then just
started to do like following certain steps in order to learn English and all these other things. And
eventually, you end up in the career that you are at the moment. Um, I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit about like, the first position that you got, or the first job that you got here in
the United States, and how that eventually got you to the place that you are at the moment.
Nasmath Aldrin 14:25
Okay, okay. Um, you know, actually, when I came in 2001, in September, and September 11
happened, right. And so, when I was going to start working, I was wondering, you know, which
fields will I go in that will not, you know, impact my, you know, where I will not be put down or
look down at all, you know, and because, you know, there was a lot of anxiety at the time, you
know, considering I was of Muslim faith. And so being that I studied nursing back home, we both
thought, you know, why don't you stay in healthcare. And, you know, in health care, you just go,
you will care for people, people will very quickly see to your heart and see that, you know, you
are just there to help them. And so I started here as a nursing assistant. And I worked, the first
place I worked, it's called "Volunteers of America". It's a nursing home, ah, in Maple, Maple
Woods. And so I started working there at the time as an nurse assistant, of course, and I worked
there for just a few months, at some point, I just did not like the culture. So I moved from that
company, and I went from there to another company called "Serenity". And that was in White
bear, and it was closer to our house actually. So that way, I stayed, you know, while I took some
classes at Kaplan for my nursing, and eventually, you know, got my license to work as a nurse.
And when I got my license to work as a nurse, actually, I was sponsored by another company, to
the Presbyterian homes, Presbyterian homes and services, and this is a company that sponsor
nurses actually from abroad. So my husband got the, you know, to know about them, and to one
of his colleagues at work. And so, through that company, you know, they really helped me to
even all the classes that I got the kind of guide me to, to get, you know, my nursing degree here,
and so, and, of course, I left serenity that that's what the last place I worked at an Nursing
assistance. And so, I went, I started my career as a nurse with Presbyterian homes. And one
day, for a few years, I, I went from there at some point, as you know, I went into management, I
went from being a floor nurse into, you know, clinical manager, and then just the stress of you
know, walk and managing my kids with you know, going up in all I decided, you know, I needed
to go back and work as the as a floor nurse. And so, you know, I went back you know, to this
simply serenity where I had previously worked as a nursing assistant because I like the culture
there. And so, I worked there as a nurse again as the flow nurse for a few years you know, just
managing with my kids age and different activities that they had. And of course, you know, after
a few years, I go into leadership there as well (laughs). And you know, started managing the
flow nurses then I went in managing for the bed Transitional Care Unit and in the year you know,
after a while, you know, I got tired again about management and I went into homecare. So in
homecare, I worked mainly with Fairview, Fairview services, and then you know, and my kids
now, back to college, I decided to tone it down. And I work currently as the, as an admission of...
director of admission at Presbyterian homes. It's only 10 minutes away from home for me, which
is really convenient. And the kids are not here anyway, they are all you know, in college and so
that's good one. I like my schedule of you know, Monday through Friday and having my
weekends that allow me to travel away and travel, you know, of course one being visited my
kids but also for business. Because you know, in between them my husband and I decided we
needed... we needed to supplement our income, we needed to diversify our assets. And so we
went into business, which has been, I will say, tremendous, you know, we have provided me the
tremendous growth, personal growth. And I believe, you know, that also contributed to the
growth in leadership that I experienced throughout my career. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:29
Wow, that sounds like a long journey that guided you to be more happy, like in a happier spot for
sure. Um, so you talked about, well we've been talking about many things. But I was, I'm
wondering, since you came to this country, I can hear that you were surrounded by many people
that helped you, in many support that you got it, but I'm pretty sure you also experienced many
challenges, and many obstacles, to also get to the place you are. So I would like to know, if you
could share a little bit about Who were those people that helped you? Like, uplift you to the
place that you are? Or what were those events that help you to where you are? And what were
those challenges that you had to face in order to get to the place that you are right now.
Nasmath Aldrin 21:26
Thank you, thank you. Actually, you know, I... This is how I came to see challenges, right?.
Challenges, I see them as an opportunity to grow. Okay, and I will say, my growth started from
being a floor nurse. One of the challenges I faced initially at work was the language. Not too
much the language but the accent, right, I knew I had an accent (laughs), there was no
discussing that, but a few of the challenges were, you know, where it was kind of thrown at my
face, you know, that... you know, either I mean, I can see where, you know, somebody may not
hear me, or may not understand me, right? by the way, but I was very, very aware of that. And I
actually, you know, will be the first to tell people I know, I have an accent. So and, you know,
being a nurse at many times, I have to educate my patients. So I will always take the time to be
slow. But also repeat myself, I will ask them, you know, to ask me because I will repeat myself,
as many times needed for them to understand me. Because that was very important for the
care, right? but that many occasions, you know, I really felt that, you know, either because of,
you know, their own issues that they had, you know, that's really how I take it because I came
across so many nice people, so many people who Oh, wow, "you speak so many languages" or
"you also speak...?" or "how many languages you speak? "and "you just come to US and you're
able to, you know, converse?", I'm like, Yeah, so I came across people like that, but I also came
across, you know, many people who, but only made me strive to get better at my you know, at
my communication, I will say, so, any challenge, that's why I only consider any challenge being
an opportunity to grow, okay?. Of course, you know, Presbyterian homes and services was you
know, as a company helped me initially to help me with you know, ESL helped me actually with
my class, my courses with Kaplan, Kaplan University and getting my nursing. So, um, so, there
were, you know, first was really tremendous in, in me, you know, going back to my nursing
career in this country. And the other day, I will say, I will attributes you know, a lot of my growth
also to the fact that I was not afraid to work hard. Not at all. And I was not afraid to, you know, to
really share with people my heart, part my heart in anything that I did. One thing that I learned
from my dad, you know, I learned from my dad and also one of my dear Professor at all nursing
school in Benin was anything that you decide to do, do it right! You do it once do it Right. Right?,
and, you know, don't give opportunity to be questioned. And so I value that a lot. And that was
one of the things that helped me. I, I, you know, I, I always give, I always put my best in anything
that I was doing. And I believe initially, that's what allowed me to go from a flow nurse quickly to
just grow in leadership. And the other thing that I will attribute my growth, my personal growt to
actually is the environment, you know, that I came at that I came through with the business
opportunity that my husband and I started, right and so, we... the business actually came as a
package along with a coaching mentorship program that, the name is BWW stands for bridge
worldwide. And so Britt worldwide was just a group of entrepreneurs, right who were committed
to helping people grow, personally. And the goal in our business is kind of related to the growth
in our personal growth. And so I fell in love with reading personal growth book, right? As I was
building my business, and, you know, in the opportunity, I had to associate with like-minded
people, you know, with people who are really upwardly mobile, and, you know, going after a
goal in life, and that, that was really unique, you know, that was unique, and I believe that
shaped, I believe that that shaped who I am today.
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:59
Yeah, that is really, really beautiful way to see challenges, I really like the way you explain them,
and how you were also to use them as a way to kind of grow and see them, as you said, an
opportunity. Um, I think all of these things are also kind of related to, you know, our beliefs, and
mindset, and all these systems. So I want to ask you, what do you think? Or what, what is your
definition for faith? Like, what does faith mean for you? And if it has changed over the years,
and if so, has it changed, because like, when you moved to United States?was your, were your
previous experiences, from your job?, in your marriage?, with your children? have they also
helped shape the way you see faith, and religion? Um, and yeah, just talk what it means for you.
Nasmath Aldrin 28:05
Thank you, thank you. Um, you know, of course, you know, I go, I grew up, knowing that there
was one God, that we were all, you know, that we were all, who created us all. And that is
anything that would be, right? believing in that God, even though he, we cannot see Him, we
cannot touch him. Okay, and so that, that, that really fit to me, is believing that in anything that
I'm doing, that there is a higher power, you know, that is actually guiding my step. And knowing
that, you know, I can go back, I can go back to him at any time, why that you will guide me, and
that any challenges that come also are could be a test of my faith, but or could be on, like I said,
an opportunity for me to grow even at the test for my faith, it is also an opportunity for me to
grow, but being able to see that, right? and then just, you know, take it that way and find you
know, find out from people who are aware, you know, I want to be, right? and taking guidance,
right from them and in reading a lot, reading a lot, you know, has helped me grow my faith as a
person. Yes, I had the faith but the challenges made me do that fit much stronger, right?, every
opportunity of anxiety of scarcity. You know, kind of reminded me Hey, you know what? in up
and low, right? there is no challenge tha\ he could put in front of me that he does not already
have the solution for. But that solution will only come in trusting him. Right that I was, I was, you
know, I was in good hands, and that the answer will come in in the right time. And just keep
moving forward and doing and choosing to do the right thing. Yeah. Really the belief in that one
thing? Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:22
absolutely. Yes. Kind of, continue talking about faith? And like, what do you believe? In all these
belief systems that you have? What do you think it means for you to be an immigrant? Who is
also African And who is also Muslim living in the United States? And how has your faith helped
you? Like, through... all this transitioning that you went from your native country, to a foreign
country that you have lived for multiple years? Now?
Nasmath Aldrin 31:17
I believe, of course, United States is the greatest states, I believe, right? In the world, I mean, in
the world, right. There is, you know, we can um, we can say all, you know, we can complain, we
can do, we can say so many things, right?. But it still remains that great country, it still remains
that country where that freedom of thinking, that freedom of enterprise, that free enterprise is,
and that's one thing that I appreciate a lot about United States. Now, of course, you know,
whether it's US or whether it's anywhere else, ignorance, I believe, is one of the main reasons
for, you know, for, you know, thinking Ill about one fit one region versus the other. I mean, God is
God, right, there is no other we call we call it Allah, right. And I believe we believe in, in God, we
believe in His messengers, while the prophet we believe in all of them. We believe in that one
day where we will all get called back to him, we believe in His angel, and then knowing all that,
you know, really strengthened my faith. It strengthened me, you know, knowing that, you know,
whatever somebody else may think, of me does not define me. Right? And knowing and you
know, trusting, in his hand of protection over me and my family, and trusting in his, you know, in
his guidance, and just moving forward, you know, and without too much baggage without too
much anxiety. Right. And so, that's really what I believe in, and my faith has helped me a lot to
stay grounded. You know, and, and, you know, it has helped me to raise my kids as well. And
helping them understand, you know, many things that, you know what?, usually, it's the
ignorance that acts, you know, ah, you know, the ignorance that acts selfishly, and then most of
the time, it's just because somebody has their own issues, you know, that can be transmitted
that can be portrayed in an ill way, right?,in a yes, in a hurtful way, or things like that. But no
human being a human being we all, we all will answer to him one day. And yeah, yeah, the US
has been a great country for us.
Barbara Sabino Pina
So good to hear. Um, so how does your identity this kind of has, you cannot cover a little bit
about this in the previous question, but I want to rephrase it a little differently. So how does your
identity as an immigrant African Muslim woman has shaped the way you see the world and the
way you behave and the basically who you are as a person?
Nasmath Aldrin
That's a That's a great question. I will say, you know, coming from a country where we really
believe in togetherness, right, we really believe so much in helping each other. I mean, even
though, you know, we don't have a lot, but we really believe in, you know, that togetherness,
that, you know, helping each other. And, you know, that just brings strength to all of us, right?.
And so that has helped me, of course, come in here and not having, you know, immediate
family, I didn't really have, I didn't really have much fun, right? There was that... there was, you
know, a little bit of preconceived ideas, you know, what is this person gonna think of me, and
what is that person, so I didn't really make a friend by the way, but, you know, after I started
walking, you know, and I will say, with the improvements in my English, it helped my self-image
as well, right?, and... of course, with the, the environments that I had a chance to be part of will
BWW, it helped me a lot to raise my self-image. And as my self-image raised, I realized that we
really are all just the same. We all just yearn for the same thing in life, we all want peace of
mind, right? We want great health, we want you know, they are just those basic things that we
all want. Right? And...but the environment, you know, that we grew up in, may make us have
some preconceived ideas about one person or the other, or one religion or the other and things
like that. But it's, I will say, you know, that togetherness helped me when I, when I came across
this business opportunity. And when I had the opportunity to meet on, you know, this team of
entrepreneurs in this environment, I just felt home, I really felt home. And I was like, you know, I
don't have to be afraid here. You know, nobody's judging me. You know, nobody's judging me
for who I am, you know, it's just me, and we are all here, together, learning from each other
growing together, you know, as a person, that's what I will say, that was huge... in umm huge
contributing in, you know, what shaped me and, and, of course, I found a game that I found
here, that family, family-like, atmosphere, even though we are all from different places of the
world, and, and things like that I found back here, you know, in this environment, and that
helped me a lot. And, you know, and then I also realized that there was really nothing to be
afraid of, you know, that, wherever I am, I could really be freely, you know, speak my mind. And,
of course, knowing that, you know, that freedom that we all have my freedom stop, when
I'm...where at that place, where I try to infringe on somebody else's freedom. Right, and so, but
it has helped, it has helped me that, you know, that togetherness, that spirit of, you know,
helping each other, you know, coming here, in the fit growing, you know, in an environment
where, you know, those values were, were very key, they kind of define this helped me a lot
here to just trust that in any way God brought me here for a reason. And so, you know, I will just
follow whatever path he has for me. And in the end, it will all be good. Yeah, I hope that
answered (laughs).
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, it did. Absolutely. It actually did touch a little bit about misconceptions. And you said a little
bit about how people can have ideas about certain people or certain religions. So I'm wondering
if you could elaborate a little bit more on like what are, a few misconceptions that people have,
or you believe people have about Muslims. And I'm like, what, if you would like to share a little
bit of how have you experienced those yourself? And how that has helped you to like, you
mentioned this a little bit about it, but like how this has helped you do see other religions and
yourself even more stronger or more open as well.
Nasmath Aldrin
Yeah, well, misconception I will say, you know, I'm I know that one of the big contributing factor
to this misconception also, I will say, when it comes to my religion, you know, being a Muslim
came from after that of September 11. Okay, I just came here to US, right?, I came in January,
and then September 11 happened. And then initially, you know, I could not, I mean, it's hard to
hide that you're Muslim (laughs). But, you know, it's like many people, I, you know, I saw that,
you know, they saw Muslim as, you know, terrorist, and, you know, things like that, of course,
initially, it was hard and actually raising my kids, you know, how do you sit them down and
explain to them, this is not what, this is not really, what...what being a Muslim is, right?. These
are people who choose, you know, who have their own agenda, really has nothing to do with the
religion. And these are just people who have their own agenda. And under the name of being
Muslim, you know, they fight to just, you know, do bad things, why they fight to just, but that has
nothing to do with religion, Islam is a unifying religion, you can see it even in how we stand in
the Muslim pray, right? There is no space between us. So, basically, you go in there, you may
be from Africa, you may be from India, you may be from any, any corner of the world. Right,
when you get on that road to pray, we all get so close to each other. Right? It's actually a
religion that bring us together. But at the same time, you know, when people decide under the
name of religion to, you know, to just kill and do things like that, right? it sounds, um, it's hard,
but I think that has that slowly, that event, slowly, I think... it increases the awareness of leaders
in the Muslim community, right?, where you know, where I pray, or the mosque, to just be an
opportunity for any of us to educate people. So initially, I was afraid, but then I just, you know, of
course, people saw my heart, right? in anything that I was doing. And I had the opportunity
many times at work, whether it be at work, you know, to just tell people that not who that's not
who we are. That's really not what we are about. You know, and, and, of course, you know, that I
believe that help that raised the awareness, or it raised the awareness and it's still going on, I
know the awareness of the religion itself. And I remember my kids studying Islam in school, and
it was a great opportunity, you know, to help them yes, you see this, you know what?, that this is
what this is, this is what our, our footage, and this is not what we about, you know, terrorism is
not what we are about. Right? And then understanding that Islam actually acknowledges every
of the other religions, right, in the, in the sixth pillar of faith. Right? Our faith is in Allah, God,
first, right? our faith in His messengers, right? Our faith in his books, right, our faith in the
messengers, which include Abraham, you know, Jesus, everybody, Joseph, all of them. When
Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam and our fifth in his book, The Torah, the angel, you know, the
Quran or every single one of them, right? This, God umm we believe God sent these books,
right to different communities. Why through evolution and at each time, target in the mindset at
the time of people and how they were living. Right? And so Jesus came, bringing and doing
many miracles. Right? So we believe he brought him and he gave him that power of doing
miracles to the ex... the expression of faith. Because at the time people needed to see that, to
believe that indeed, there is a God, right? And so through evolution, you know, of a human and
all, we believe all those books came. And Mohamed Salah Salem was the last to come with the
Quran, again, him in an area in an environment, right?, where the culture was, you know, killing
girls, baby girls, right? And, you know, in many, many, many, many violent things were there,
you know, initially in the culture, right? The worshipping objects and things like that were
predominant at his time. Right? And so in his, in him come in with the Quran to elevate people's
consciousness, right, and get them from that, you know, that's mindset and that culture and that
way of doing things. And he had to fight for people to actually get to the point where they could
believe why he had to clean up completely, right? the cava that place today that we all go and
worship as a Muslim that we all yearn to go right and worship, which is maca. Maca was taught
completely overtaken by idols, right? and for him to be able to bring Islam to people and to bring
the awareness of God to people, those things had to happen. And God needed, God needed for
those people, or those who will believe to believe. And yes, he had to fight. But that does not
mean that Islam is the religion of just fighting and killing, no, not at all. Right? And so for, you
know, for people and information is so readily available nowadays. Really, you know, for
anybody who really wants to understand Islam, they can pretty much get that information online,
you know, but, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what I can say. But, you know, just to say
that, not just like Christianity, and just like, you know, and Islam is just one way that God chose
to bring, you know, to raise people's consciousness and make them understand that there is a
God in that you do good, you will see good, and you do bad, you will find back as well.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, for those people that might know little to nothing about
Islam or Muslims, especially here in the United States. How would you describe what does
being a Muslim looks like to them?
Nasmath Aldrin
I would say being a Muslim. Ah, you know what, let me get your question, right. How will I
describe... how will I describe a Muslim to them?
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, to someone who doesn't, who knows little to nothing about Islam?
Nasmath Aldrin
Okay. So I will say it mostly it's just a human being, like anybody else, right? and we believe in
the uniqueness of Allah, right?. And, you know, we pray five times a day, you know, again, a
way for Allah to remind us, right? those, each time that you get on that road, remember I
created you, right? and so five times a day, we are required to go and do those prayers for that
reason. Because the more we are reminded of who's we are, right and where we come from. It
helped us not only stay grounded, right?, but it helped us just stay on the right path that he has,
you know, cleared us to be cleared all of us to come here for a reason, right? with a mission.
And these five prayers a day is a reminder for us each time of where we came from, who's we
are, who we are. Okay, and that's just, that just, those are just an expression. Of course, you
know, we are... he, what we like, those are killers of, you know, of our religion. But when you
think about it, it just a way for us to stay humble, to stay grounded, and know, where we came
from. And a reminder for us each of those five times a day, that, you know, we are God's all, all
God's kids. And we need to do the right thing, right. So it's just like, if you think about it, you
know, you take a shower five times a day, how much debt will you carry? Not much. Right? So,
yeah, oh, you wash your hand five times a day? How much? No. for the Deaf stain, you know,
within, you know, that purity of spirits. Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Awesome. Is there anything that we didn't get to talk about in this interview today, that you
would like to cover or to talk about? Maybe any comments or any additional thoughts about
anything that was said or maybe not said today?
Nasmath Aldrin
Um, you know, I will say, one thing I will say is encourage anybody, you know, like I said, earlier,
information is so readily available nowadays. You know, and in the Muslim community itself, you
know, we organize, so many opportunity for anybody to come in and learn, even as we are
currently fasting, right. And again, we fast and be nice, mainly, again, to worship God, by then to
keep that spirit period, which is actually good for our health itself. You know, this is, you know, a
period during the year where just those fasting actually are very good for your, of course, for
your spirit, for your spirit, but also for your body. So, we embrace that. And for anybody who is
not, you know, how, who really wants to learn about Islam, so many organizations, by the
Minnesoat, itself having a in an Islamic community, Minnesota, okay, let's CEAI. There are so
many so much information available, even online, Right? there there is translation of Hadith of
the Prophet of his way of living, they are translation of even the Quran, you know, the Quran,
you know that to just to help people be aware. So anybody who is looking for the information,
the information is available. It's just going and finding it. When, because anytime you actually go
and find information, it's just like, you are bringing light into darkness, right? And anytime you do
that, it helps increase your awareness. It helps raise your consciousness. It helps you in this
thing. It helps you see everybody as one as equal. No distinction. Doesn't matter. We don't I
don't see color. I don't, right? I don't see. Good. I don't see I noticed none of that. I just see
human beings, all of us. Just unique in our way, right? masterpiece, each of us a masterpiece.
Absolutely. And he is so much more than we think we are capable of. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Oh, so true. Well, thank you so much for your time today Nasmath I think I learned so much for
you and I hope everyone who listens to this conversation, this interview learns a lot for you as
well, thank you so much again.
Nasmath Aldrin
You're welcome my pleasure (laughs)
Show less
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about i... Show more
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about it?
Sabrin Gadow 0:24
Yeah for example were you born in America?
Ash Farah 0:30
Oh no, I'm so I was born in Gadow, which is between the Borderlands of Somalia, Kenya and
Ethiopia. I was born in a village there with my mom. And we came to America actually through
--- I forget what exact humanitarian organization it was, but it was through them and we got to
re-located over to the United States.
Sabrin Gadow 0:52
That’s nice!
Okay, so what was your family like?
Ash Farah 1:00
Well, I'm the oldest I'm like, I'm the oldest son.
I also I come from a relatively small family for a Somali family. My siblings are Rahma, Ayub,
and Mohammed and I'm the oldest of them. I also have a stepbrother and stepsister, but they
were much older than I was so.
Sabrin Gadow 1:20
So what was your neighborhood growing up like?
Ash Farah 1:28
It was very Somalia. I grew up around a lot of somali people and my just you know, generally
very low income, we grew up on section eight and you know, like, there was no Eid gifts. The
Eid gifts were that you got to eat that day. You know that type of teas. Like it's pretty, pretty
simple.
Sabrin Gadow 1:40
Yeah. How's it like growing up in a Somali neighborhood, was it Muslim majority?
Ash Farah 1:47
Yeah, it was definitely Muslim majority, like Somalis are like 99.9% Sunni Muslim so yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 1:55
Yeah did you like that? Was it the sense of community? Did it make you feel safer? Was it just
was a nice for your mom?
Ash Farah 2:00
Yeah, it was very nice for my mom because she was a single mom. My dad left two years after
we like relocated. So it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other Somali women. And
it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other members of the community and from our tribe
and stuff like that, because they helped with like, childcare, getting a job, all the things that
make it really hard to relocate to a foreign country with children. You know, like, it's very hard.
So she didn't feel alone. She obviously grew up very Muslim and found solace in the masjid
and, you know, we went Dugsi [Islamic school] every like, I think, every Wednesday, Saturday,
Sunday, and on Friday and Sunday. Yeah, if my mom could afford it, she would send us even
more. But she's like, you know, and that kind of thing. She just really really loved Islam. And it
was very clear because everybody around me loved Islam.
Unknown Speaker 3:00
Yeah, you said growing up in Islam. How did growing up in Minnesota a sort of shape you? Do
feel like you've been on different path and if you grew up in this area that was so highly
concentrated in Somalis as well as Muslims?
Ash Farah 3:12
It's because of the like, certain. Like, I've met a lot of like, Somali queers across the world, UK,
London. I'm just friends, even Toronto, like just all these places that all these people, you know,
ran off to, and I think Minneapolis causes a certain socio political background that allows for it to
be very different than if I grew up in let's say, Denmark and was Muslim, there's less of a social
pressure to be more like ultra conservative in your interpretation of Islam. Like there are people
who have no problems with like, people not wearing Hijabs. You know like not wearing
traditional garments and stuff like that, at all. Umm just because of the you know, of the mixing
of culture there? Also because there's different Muslims, and it isn't just like the majority of
Muslim population there isn't Somali only. It's like there's Arabs, there’s people from Palestine. It
was, more you know, black Muslims, there’s you know converts and stuff like that. There was
like more diversity so that causes a little more lax opinions when it comes to like groupthink in
the community and stuff like that. So there's less, I don’t want to say less prejudice because
prejudice exists consistently throughout whatever society you go to but less rigidity I’d say.
Sabrin Gadow 4:38
You said the term ran off to what do you mean by that? Either term run off as in, like, places
they went off to?
Ash Farah 4:44
Oh yeah … Yeah! Like, um, you know, where people have ran off to. Like, you know,
displacement from the Civil War, so it makes sense for most people to have fled to the nearest
place that they could flee too. For example there’s Somali Queers that are living in Yemen or
Kenya, or Denmark and UK or Toronto and here. All very different in their experiences because
of the different environments that they are growing up in.
Sabrin Gadow 5:07
So you use a term Groupthink when referring to this close knit community of relations to find
that sense of this my community and stuff like that. How do you feel group think affects people
who aren't like, how do I phrase this in a nice way, people who aren’t like the typical idea of
what Somali Muslim should be?
Ash Farah 5:30
Mmmh, To put it lightly, I've learned a lot of things in my life, which is, if you go against the
majority opinion on faith based issues, people respond very emotionally very, like personally
and personally attacked because this is something that is very, very, close to their heart and
they think this is right. Particularly it was harmful for me growing up because of being a child
and stuff like that. So people see you as saveable, as fixable, and they don't want you to go
through what they see it as the worst punishment on earth for all of eternity. So they want to
help the this kid out by any means necessary and sometimes those means are violent.
Sometimes they're ostracizing. Sometimes they're, you know, like conversion therapy. So by
any means necessary to help another like member of your community out. And I am at the age
where now I know that it comes from this place -- it comes from like a kind of a good hearted
place despite the impact that had on me growing up. And it makes sense for people especially
here in Minneapolis, especially in the somali population, and the older Somali population here in
Minneapolis to cling on to their faith even more so than they would back home because they
literally had to give up so much of themselves and Minneapolis is vastly different than where
they're growing up. I like had this conversation with my mom and she was explaining how much
she missed she missed sugar canes and how much she missed like the masjid that she would
go to and like just the how vastly different growing up in Somalia versus living here in this
tundra! with no sun, like, just off. Even the food's off! All this, so it's very understandable, they
would cling on to their faith even harder, like even more strict because that’s one of the only
things they got to keep. Not their houses and no they're --- like my mom witnessed, you know
soldiers break down Hawo Tako [Statue] not even their culture when it came down to it. You
know, so they have this one very, very, tangible thing that they can hold on to and to see their
kids either rejecting from that path or from their particular interpretations very, very, very harmful
to them. And it makes sense. It does. But it doesn't make it right, but yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 7:50
Yeah. Such a nice way to think of it.
Ash Farah 8:00
For example, my mom had this first incident like the moment we got here, like of course, we
landed in New York. We're on this escalator and she was holding me and a man decided to
yank her hijab. And this is, like yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 8:10
So sorry!
Ash Farah 8:12
And it was, you know, it was post 9/11. My mom was wearing a huge Jilbab, which is, you know,
like, you know, she's 6’1’. So she sticks out of the crowd and stuff. Like that this guy got a rise
out of it. He was drinking too much at the airport. And I fell, tumbled on all these steps on this
escalator and my mom, a) has never seen an escalator. And that was her first like, initiation into
American culture, which is very violent and very against your faith. So what people do when
there's an opposition and an oppression, is they cling on to it even more. And over time, I got to
see my very, very liberal mother become more and more of a literalist, when it came to the
Koran, and when it came to faith and stuff like that, because of just the concentration of the way
American bigotry is against Muslims in particular. Where else you might not see that as much.
Like you do see some islamophobia but it does not come off as directly violent as American
Islamophobia is.
Sabrin Gadow 9:14
American Islamophobia is truly something different. You mentioned something about growing up
with a liberal mother and her changing into more of a literalist, because of the community she
was apart of and the community that she held ties to. How did that feel growing up and going
into somali spaces and having different ideals and values based on you?
Ash Farah 9:33
Oh, it was very, very difficult.
I was a young child, ahhh, weird child. I did not speak till the age of eight. I just had all these like
external issues going on in my life that my mom had to deal with having a kid that had needs
that needed to be met like I needed a speech therapist and it was a mysterious came --- due to
an illness I had as a kid. Just had no answers and had to navigate the system by herself in this
country by herself. So, I watched her become this very laissez faire, like, mother of like, you can
play with Barbies, you can play with GI Joes. And you can, like watch. We used to watch john,
john wayne westerns, because she used to love those together and stuff like that and watch her
become very, very anti-westernization and more like faith based and like literalist Islam, stuff like
that. Like I want my children to be hafiz. I want them to go to Dugsi all the time because the
counter effect would be like they'd end up like the kids in my neighborhood, the black kids she
saw in the neighborhood who were dealing with socio economic issues that like lead them down
certain paths. So she really honned that in.
Ash Farah 10:56
Of course, it was very unlucky for me because I'm a trans man. So I was born female and
assigned female at birth. And I was trying to communicate that with no words to my mom. So it
wasn't very --- AND to my peers who obviously picked it up really quickly. It's kind of hard to like,
not pick up on that, especially since the more literalist interpretations of Islam have stricter like
gender roles and gender guidelines. So it quickly became very, very hard for me to focus on
Fiqh and like learning about Islam, and going to Dugsi and stuff like that when there was literally
a partition, deciding if I was like, what roles I would have to play and do all that. And it was very,
very, very difficult because I felt like there was something wrong with me. That my entire
community was trying to help me because I was flawed and broken and a burden onto my mom.
Ash Farah 12:00
My mom would get a lot of help and support because people would see, you know, her like,
weird kid and stuff like that. So it was a mutual. Like I saw the benefit of that, but also meant
that through egging on of various community members, my mom, so shovel me into Quran
Saar, which is like people reading Quran over, you know, children usually have, you know,
illnesses or like something wrong with them or just or being seen as possessed. So I dealt with
that. And it got increasingly worse, because my mom started to notice she had more of a
community around her. And that’s what she really needed as a single mom who literally just
could not afford much, and it led me down to having a really, really harsh ‘bout with Islam.
Sabrin Gadow 12:58
You talked a little bit about you being a transman, do identify with any other communities?
Ash Farah 13:02
I---- this is a par, or a question that I get a lot. I really do identify as being Somali. Identify with
the muslim identity. I identify as trans identify, I identify as LGBT, and I don't see how, I know a
lot of people see that as like in, incomprehensibly, untetherable like you cannot tether those
identities together, they cannot exist in a human being. I even get it from somali people like you
are either Muslim or your gay, or you can't be trans and Muslim. You know, like Somalis don't
have gay people or something like that. That's white people shit, and all that kind of stuff. But I
really truly hold, hold all those things. So.
Sabrin Gadow 13:57
So beautiful. You hear a lot about Somali hate being gay. But we definitely do hear something
about Somalis queers, who don’t have faith and Somali Queers who do have faith.
Who talk about feeling like they couldn't be somali and clear and also have Muslim as well. Do
you feel like you fit into that? In the sense that -- I’ll rephrase the question, how does it feel to be
ostracized in multiple communities and do you feel that you had to build a community from that?
As in a sense where it's like being a Somali Queer openly, like a visibly queer person, trans
person, and also living with that as well. But how do you feel because your ostracized in those
that small intersections.
Ash Farah 14:42
Right? Like I felt since I couldn't find family and I couldn't find ummah basically, I couldn't find
community in Islam, because of you know, various interpretations of the faith deciding that I
could not --- that my existence was non congruent with their form of Islam.
I decided to not listen to any of that.
Sabrin Gadow 15:05
How does it feel to be consistently told that your existence is untrue? Nah, like that its like an
idea that's a made up and came from forced westernization. And how did you find community
within that?
Ash Farah 15:17
I forced it. I figured out a young age since couldn’t find ummah within Islam. And I couldn't find
solidarity in my blackness. Because I, you know, as a kid, I like really was trying to find a space
where I wasn't seen as “other” entirely, um, I would try out like black identity and stuff like that,
but it's very hard because African Americans and African people have this long going, you
know, issue between the two. And it's just due to coming from different experiences of
Pan-African identity. I did a civil rights research tour, in order to like, better known about, you
know, the struggle of black African Americans and stuff like and found that I was within that, but
also separate and had to unpack that. I also had to unpack that in LGBT spaces that I went to
Minneapolis, were very white centric, very had various ideas of what it meant to be Muslim. And
I encountered a lot of Islamophobia. And a lot of racism too. So I felt great. So I'm too, I'm too
black, and too African and too Muslim, to be an LGBT spaces consistently, I'm to LGBT to be in
Islamic spaces, I'm too, you know, like, African and queer to be in black spaces. So I decided,
fuck it, I'm going to find and forge, and make community and make a chosen family and, like
make spaces for us to be, you know, for people like me to seek them out. Even though it's very
much, people say it's very much in your best interest to not claim all three of those identities
because even one of them. Islamophobia alone kills, homophobia alone kills, transphobia alone
kills, and anti blackness kills. But to claim all three and to be looking for other people like you, is
to literally, literally, paint a target on your head and say that's better. Maybe if I find two other
people like me, it'll be worth being consistently shot at.
Ash Farah 17:29
And I decided that at a very young age.
Sabrin Gadow. 17:36
Is this where your activism stems from?
Ash Farah 17:40
Ummm yeah actually. Yeah, like one thing of the things that I really liked about Islam, was it
that. I'm actually thankful for it because I love the story and Nabi [prophet] Mohammed.
Sabrin Gadow 17:51
Oh, could you explain the story?
Ash Farah 17:52
I'm as if we're not both. Okay. I don't know.
All right.
Ash Farah 18:00
He was the last prophet according to the Quran, and he grew up in Mecca during the time of
like, political strife. He was from the Quraish tribe even though he was an orphan, and he
literally been he started. He like was anti-idolatry. So this worship of idols and the trade of idols,
which was a lot of commerce to Mecca at the time, on against the various political and social
issues, like slavery, and the mistreatment of slaves and mistreatment of women and
mistreatment of orphans like himself and was very much a social, a social, like activist if you
really think about it, because I'm only an activist will be exiled out of a country for political
reasons. You know, asylum status alone. Literally went to Medina because his message was
just not sitting well with the people in power, because the message was of peace and it was of
like very very, very stark social change. And people were just not having it. And I found his story
to be really inspiring because even though people call him a madman, crazy like, called him a
liar, said he was possessed, all the things from like, for literally you know, for nothing more than
being honest and what he was known for being honest. And these are all traits that I, you know,
growing up really, really like held onto. And, you know, he spoke for a lot of broken people, and
even in war times had all these rules and I just really inspired to be like him.
Sabrin Gadow 20:00
You mentioned something about him being for the people, social activists and a comment you
said was that only an activist would do something like this, do you think because you were so
visibly queer, visibly trans that you and all that stuff that you kinda even chose this path and
more like directed to it and lead on it?
Ash Farah 20:16
Yeah.
Also, what I liked about him and his story was, he didn't have a say in being Nabi. He really
didn't have the say in being a prophet, an angel like just decided. Okay, you're going to read
today, even though he couldn't, um, and stuff like that. I just, he didn't have a say in the role he
was put in. I don't think I did really like I think I had to speak for a lot of people who are able to
speak for themselves. I met a lot of queers and somali queers that were silenced or were being
killed or were, you know, one way or the other forced back into the closet through finances
through just threats of absolute violence and All these, you know different things. So I decided
— I like when I learned to speak, I decided to actually speak for people who needed to be
spoken for. And I held that. And that's the type of activism I do.
Sabrin Gadow 21:20
Is that how you define activism?
Ash Farah 21:23
Now, I feel like activism is just an individual who's trying to create social change. And that's like
when people say, well, that's very vague. That's true, because there's different forms of
activism. What type of activism I like to focus on and do is called healing justice. And healing
justice is mainly focused on trying to heal and create spaces for people and communities who
don't have space for those who are being under attack or ostracized or things like that. And
don't have spaces where they can be themselves, access resources, heal them deal with their
mental like, find housing resources, very direct action type teas when you meet up with people.
And because there's — no one really gets it better than someone who's going through it.
Ash Farah 22:18
So that's the type I do. There's different types. There's, of course demonstrative which was the
type you see when you see people protesting. There's media, which is more based on
awareness and getting the word out. There's journalism, there's direct, direct line journalism,
which you can see people at Gaza, you know, partaking in. There’s, you know, charitable based
or like, income based or people who work in lobbying, which I have done work in. Like all these
different things.
Sabrin Gadow 22:35
Do you prefer doing like more active work and creating more healing spaces or just doing the
work to heal people with their own traumas up, of just being consistently being attacked or
harmed, rather than things like lobbying or more demonstrative work?
Ash Farah 23:00
Um, yeah, like I got to work with out front. And as they are an LGBT lobby group in Minnesota
against conversion therapy and trying to get a band. Luckily this year they got a ban after
literally, since I was 15 pushing this. I'm so very excited about that. I'm like, I saw the
administrative stuff like the overarching side of activism. I've also partaken in demonstrations
like how I've actually held rallies at the state capitol, I've interviewed politicians and talk to them.
Like I sat down with Ilhan for God knows how long trying to explain LGBT him some issues. And
I got to see that and I got to see lobbying firsthand. I worked in anti violence for a minute. I also
did a lot of you know, I was a kid. So I did a lot of LGBT activism through my school. I did a
documentary based on the experiences of a trans student going through local education system
Minneapolis. I also did over 200 teacher trainings to educate educators on how to better support
and aid trans and LGBT students. I like went to various schools, there were some very, very
against the message that I was trying to do and the say, which was simply just the best policies
is to be inclusive.
Um, there's also I also got to see, like gone to countless protests, for BLM, for Black Lives
Matter. I've gone to black immigrant collective and helping here. I've done direct service work
with Minneapolis Transgender Health Coalition, and they're shot clinic and trying to reduce harm
to trans and LGBT folks through medicine. So I got to see a lot of different types of activism and
truly and honestly, nothing would bring me more joy and more impact than directly meeting with
people in crisis and helping them get resources that they need. I'm talking with 13 year olds, 14
year olds, who are just kicked out of their house and need to be connected with various
resources. And you know, we'll have someone there to show them that hey, it does get better
even if it's consistently shitty.
Ash Farah 25:49
And like just having umm like having people call you for and reach out being like hey I’m Muslim
and queer. I don't know how my family is going to be like this. How do I go about getting
financial independence? Various like, helping like people online, trying to get resources for visas
and visa help an asylum status and get into the US from Kenya. I briefly worked on this project
with mossier which involved a chicken farm in Kenya where a lot of LGBT women, lesbian
women, with their children and of course because you know, like it's a product of the situation
they're in, like, get gainful employment, because gainful employment allows people to have a lot
more safety net and be less targeted. And obviously I'm supposed to go do that documentary
project over in Kenya but umm my immigration status at the time was not going to be left to test.
It is one thing to go help another thing to permanently stay.
But yes, it’s truth.
Sabrin Gadow 26:50
Umm yeah that’s definitely valid.
Ash Farah 26:55
But yeah, I don't know. I like I've seen a lot of it. I think nothing helps more than what I'm doing
now, which is directly connecting with muslim queers on a one to one basis and giving them
hope and resources.
Sabrin Gadow 27:11
That is definitely important work considering how it’s very not talked about.
Ash Farah 27:13
It’s not very glamorous, it's not like, and it's good that it's not talked about often times, like, I
think one of the most horrifying times in my life was, I was in this one documentary called out
north. A lot of people may have seen it. It's about LGBT history in Minnesota.
And I was helping the director, as a high schooler, like just, you know, like, interview folks,
cameras and all that. And I decided and he decided to throw me in and talk about the Somali
LGBT experience I had growing up. I talked about how Brian Cole the center was named after a
gay man, a gay man publicly against the Vietnam War. And things like that would affect like, anti
war myself. So it worked out
and I only learn this because I wanted to know how, because that was a center I grew up with,
like, it's right around, cedar and it's majority Muslim base and stuff like that. And I remember
being literally shoved behind the bleachers, for being nothing more than myself. And I found it
weird that that was the name associated with the building. And if he knew what was happening,
how he would feel, and I talked about that. And of course, I didn't know that TPT which was on
was free TV, and the entirety of my neighborhood saw it. And I got a flood of like, threats and
death threats and people being obviously righteously mad.
Sabrin Gadow 27:44
And what do you mean righteously mad?
Ash Farah 27:50
They're just mad because they were like, how dare this person speak on the unspeakable. This
is an unspeakable, shameful issue. You know, like, how can you? can't be both LGBT and
Muslim and you can also keep the community out your mouth and that kind of stuff because
we're still black and anti-snitching.
Sabrin Gadow 29:03
Say that period!
Ash Farah 29:16
God, um, and there's just. Umm it was at a time where the community was facing a lot more
police surveillance and CVE and a lot of friends working on it and, you know, countering CVE in
that process and it was just, I found it very, very, very difficult to hold all my intersections and
push for intersectionality in activism in all these different ways, because I was literally being
attacked for nothing more than, you know, posing a question and talking about, you know,
talking about my own experiences. And honesty, I learned at a young age really gets people like
hurt and killed and I worried for my family because my brothers and sisters were being chased
from school. Umm like, it was a horrific time. And now I realize, hey, since this is —
it brought like, yes, the visibility brought a lot of good things. But it brought me a lot of direct
physical harm, a lot of mental strife. So, I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to stop
activism. I was just going to target the people I wanted to target. I didn't care about those, you
know, white queers are watching this documentary, they're not the ones that I need to like,
reach out to or share this story with,
those real people who needed real help, which I would much rather do so yes, my activism is in
more of the shadows now.
But guess what, so are these people so I'm going where it goes, where the work is needed to
go.
Sabrin Gadow 30:45
I respect that. First, you talk about CVE and for those who don't know CVE is Countering Violent
extremism a program the government created to infiltrate like schools, public programs, things
that like they're getting federal grant money for. To like surveil people who are like being seen
as like being susceptible to joining terrorist groups. Things can seem simple as like people like
putting on hijab and not putting hijab has been more interesting in school life, things Iike being
more interested in Islam so like literally that was punishing curiosity. So as someone who was
around during this time with this documentary were you apart of part of the active against fight
against CVE.
Ash Farah 31:23
Yeah and I remember specifically going to um, I think Ilhan was speaking at this event at the
Bryant Cole about it and was confronted by a bunch of students like myself about this issue and
I remember sitting there in that room like in like, in that set like in front row sitting there with
myself like by myself, just like realizing that I look to the left of me, and I saw the Macalin that
like, you know, those Islamic school teacher that would torture me. Crying for their own kids and
worried about their own issues and just like, I remember that moment, like, I don't get to pick my
communities. But I wanted to be there for all sides of me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:19
That’s such an interesting thing to say all sides of you. Wouldn’t you consider it hard to sit there
and be in that kind of space, were you able to look yo you left and look yo your right and there’s
people have actively harmed you. We've been a whole situations or violence situations, and try
to fight with something that not only harms you, but your community as well, while they're
actively harming you. Like, for example, the out north one, the documentary that you came out
talking about being queer, and all that intersection of being queer, Muslim, and smally. And now
you're being harassed because of that, and then receiving, like threats because of that, and
then not being the space where you're actively advocating for people who wouldn't think for
you?
Ash Farah 33:00
Because that's the thing about justice you. You either want justice for everyone regardless of
how they are to you or you? You're not, you're not you don't just advocate and, like, wish good
things upon people because they like you. You know, like, I made peace with the fact that I
wasn't going to be liked by my community early on. But that doesn't mean people should be
surveyed. It doesn't mean people should be, you know, having Muslim bans and it doesn't mean
that, you know, like, our community should be pushed out through housing issues and initiatives
without their voice, you know, and all those things like, doesn't matter if they don't like me, or if
they wanted me dead, because that's more reflection on them than it is on me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:57
And that’s on period.
Ash Farah 33:43
You know, and, like, I just I remember, there's been so many like, I loved Islamic studies, and
Islamic stories as a kid. Because, literally if you —- Nabi Mohammed literally had the closest
saxabas [disciples] who were his closest companions were men who wanted him gone, who
wanted him dead, who wanted him you know, for better like during their times when they were
not Muslim. You know, like they truly believed all those horrible things and still reached out, still
did but did not resort to immediate violence and all that so I just found that admirable and you
kind of grew in with me and within my own philosophies of life.
Also, liked Isa [Jesus], but you know, like you can't be saying that too loud and in a masjid like
this, you know, because that's kinda like you riding a little Christian line there. What do you
mean Isa? But like, yeah, that like sense of like, turn your cheek sometimes.
It's not about you.
Sabrin Gadow 34:00
I like that because at the end of the day it’s for the community. Yeah.
Ash Farah 34:19
And part of it, whatever affects them, will affect me. It will affect my siblings, it will affect my
sister. So I am of the community like I got here through asylum status. So Muslim ban is very
serious. Like it's, you know, that kind of stuff. So, definitely.
Sabrin Gadow 35:18
You talk something — when you spoke about activism you do you spoke about healing and
healing through that, how's that relate to the major you chose at Augsburg?
Ash Farah 35:28
Well, I'm not gonna lie. The major I chose that Augsburg was bio psychology, because it was
the closest to neuro psychology because it was the study of the human mind. And I'm pre-med
because I am an African stereotype. And despite that, my mom really wanted me to be Poli-sci.
I like a lot of people thought it was going to be Poli-Sci because of, you know, just my interest in
activism and advocacy and all those sorts of things. But I just thought that I couldn't have both.
But I feel like you can pursue medicine. You can't pursue medicine without knowing the
communities that you serve, and stuff like that. So I think it made me more well rounded person
like, Yes, I wrote curriculum. The moment — that was the first job I got out of high school for the
superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools by asked me after all the basically unpaid
trainings and work that I did to help create curriculum around LGBT history, and I was the
youngest person to be able to do so just because of that sort of work. And I found that policy
and politics and lobbying and working anti violence directly and working with youth all that did
not bring me the same.
It all had the same overarching theme of healing that I was trying to get. And I think the closest
to you know, a traditional healer is a doctor. So I really am hoping to become a doctor so that I
could help support a lot of non like a lot of nonprofits. I wrote a very —- I was a grant writer for a
minute. So I know the struggle of trying to get funding for your communities when they're like,
poor low income, stuff like that. So having a little couple names before your name, to like, push
something along to help your community really does help. Also, we literally have the worst
outcomes for, you know, Somali people here and there's a lot of like medicine, misinformation
that was given out by shitty people to vulnerable members of our community, and referring to
the antivaxxers who and also like, there's just not a lot of mental health advocates in our
community, even though for a vast majority of our elders are suffering from PTSD.
Ash Farah 38:00
You can't watch your entire family drown in a ferry and expect to be normal and then dropped
into a random country, that the only thing you have is faith in your religion, and expect and strife
and you know and expect to be normal with a lot of, you know, a lot of the female. A lot of older
people, all the females in our community have had issues of sexual assault or witness sexual
assault, there are more times I have a ricochet bullet from where my mom, got shot, it's just not,
you know, like it's just not talked about because and we need to have people who look like us
be able to address these issues. So it's not just, you know, just pray on it. Because that's the
only way to stop these cycles of trauma and stuff like that. So I would love and love to be that
person. And also guess what trans people also horrific outcomes when it comes to health care,
and so do black people.
So I figured it was the perfect calling for me.
Sabrin Gadow 39:00
That’s amazing, you talk a lot about unspoken, and things that are not talked about and is that
underlying theme that you’ve noticed a lot? Like what things you don't want to talk about things
we don't want to see we push aside and let that bubble until we actually have to address it.
Ash Farah 39:20
Yes, I think um, there's a lot of issues like that, but in particular, like queer Muslims have existed
and will continue to exist. It's just we choose not to talk about that because it's much easier to
tell your family that that cousin or that sibling
left or disappeared or got sick, then deal with the fact that this is a problem that needs the like
Reformation that we need to change the way we view the way, the way we accept treatment of
LGBT Muslims in our community.
Because that is not a reflection on the deen [faith] but a reflection of us.
Sabrin Gadow 40:10
You talk a lot about change. Do you think that the younger generation will bring about this kind
of change?
Ash Farah 40:12
Yeah, like the younger generations, I've already noticed have been more accepting and more
like conscious and aware of these issues and stuff like that it just comes down to if there will be
less of a literalist interpretation, and less, you know, hatred, but in, you know, we say, with every
generation, it'll get better and stuff like that. But, you know, hatred has a way of being taught as
a way of like, being propagated like Frederick Douglass said, it's easier to build a boy and make
a man or something like that, you know, it gets really, you know, and I think we shouldn't be
reaching out to youth, if people see like, that gay people cause diseases or like, they'll be like
Sodom and Gomorrah, like Qumul-lut [The People of Lot] you know, and stuff like that. And that
they are just generally bad people.
And they'll believe it because we're only 7% of the population. So it's not that many and even
trans people is even less. But even then we're still the same amount of people that have red
hair, you know, but like, youth aren't seeing positive, like impacts and positive, like members of
the community and stuff like that, who are out, who are visible or doing things that are, like
consciously positive. We're not going to we're not going to spark change.
Ash Farah 41:29
Where were we?
Sabrin Gadow 41:31
Sorry for the small break we took. We had to go grab a drink of water. You talk a lot about
visibility, and you talk a lot about the things that aren't talking about, and spoken about but you
think you made the chose to be more visible or did you feel like you had to like it was a duty you
owed?
Ash Farah 41:41
Here's the thing about visibility. I came out to my entire family at five. I wrote down. I'm a boy! I
loved Vikings, I loved all sorts of more masculine things, and what the immediate assumption
was, was that I had a jinn.
That I was possessed with a jinn and a masculine jinn and stuff like that or that I had an evil
eye or something. So they of course started you know, conversion therapies and stuff like that
to help and eventually, like it became I was a very, very honest kid so that obviously didn't really
didn't work at all because it was nothing wrong with me. And I this, I don't think there was a point
in my life where I decided to not be visible, I think I was always visible except under threats of
violence. That was it and I would, in a wouldn't even be a threat to me, it would be a threat to
either my siblings or my mom. And at that point, I started to like realize around the age of like,
nine or so that I needed to not be as visible not be as loud about it because it actually had
terrible effects on my mother and my siblings and my family in general. And it was, you know,
like, and I went along with it, I acted like I was consistently cured. I delved into Islam trying to
find some loophole, some something, some Hadith that like, show that I wasn't just this, you
know, weird, pariah! That there had to be something to explain my existence. You know, and
because I knew was true, and I wasn't lying and all those things, eventually found out the
Hamza one of the Saxaba [disciple] was performed a gender reassignment surgery on what
they would call them Mukannahth, which are, you know, like men who resemble women is the
direct translation, but which are trans women and of course, you know, transmen existed too at
that time and even in our and then I started to
Think. Okay, well, if the Quran doesn't obviously have anything against being like trans andthe
only Hadith I found was for it. I figured out right then that there was nothing and that Allah didn't
hate me, but that my people did. And honestly, people have hated a lot of people over time for
stupid reasons, you know people just love to hate. And I decided right then and I wasn't going to
be ashamed of anything that I had. Because I knew that if there was an Allah, that Allah was
merciful. Because I always read those the first line before any Sura [Chapter]. Do you know the
Most Merciful so I’m like if that is really true, then I am going to be fine. And those who wish
violence upon me, will have to account for it on the Day of Judgment. I found very that was very
faithful in that sense.
And I decided not to hide anything because Allah made me the way I was.
And I decided to be visible. And in the sense of I decided not to lie, which was a sin anyway.
You know? And that's okay. AndI just and I got to the point where like, I had no choice but to be
visible because not to be visible was going to kill my soul. It was just, I would have to pretend to
be someone I was completely not to everybody that I love and that they would start to love this
random person that I created. And I was not what I wanted. I wanted people to either hate the
authentic me or love the authentic me, then to love with this image, I propagate and hide out of
fear.
So if it was a choice, I don't even think it was a choice. I think the idea that it can be a choice to
hide yourself is actually really harmful, because so many Muslim queers I hear are just like, oh
yeah. Yeah!
Just go back in the closet!
When it's detrimental to your health and your physical well being, and your will to live because
why would you live if you can't sustain love or be authentic to your loved ones, or be honest like
that's not a life you're just living in a shell of a person, even though for but it's justified for safety
and I just realized I had nothing to lose and when it came to, obviously I had my life to lose. I
had like family to lose it like I had to leave at 13 I was homeless throughout my entirety of my
teen years. I've been beaten more like more times than I can remember.
I just —- in the sense of I had nothing to lose in the sense of the only thing I would have lost
was a fake life
I'd rather die a real one.
[RADIO SILENCE]
Okay? Hi.
Nothing???
Sabrin Gadow 47:30
Ohh (laughter)!
Going off your comment of dying a real one.
How do you feel? Headass.
You talk about you know that you had nothing to lose, you talk about your work and activism
and how it affected your family, and what does your family think of your work?
Ash Farah 47:50
It took, I'm not gonna lie I was disowned. It took a long while for me to get to a point where like,
where my mom and I can sit down and talk and do all that because was the once I left like it got
slightly better for them and over time it did get better for them in terms of being targeted and
having these effects but the fact that I continuously reached out and was doing work and I mean
I was like 16 doing it trans rally at the Capitol like it was you know, I was they doing teacher
workshop so it was entering classrooms you know, I was going against conversion therapy. And
that included Islamic conversion therapy, and stuff like that. So it was very much like can’t you
just go away and being gay somewhere else? Can’t you just not claiming to be somali, I just
change your name, change everything about you become fully Americanized, to be able to be,
you know, and I said, No, because I love my culture, and I love my people. I'm going to keep
this about me.
And then my mom was like, well I don't want you to come back in a body bag, please stop
speaking out with this is really, who does this help? Who does this help? And I'm, like, you
know, stuff like that because all it's doing is like harming you and I had my ribs are smashed and
I was, you know, like sleeping from bench the bench and like, like during school it was just not
good. It was not a good time and but I don't know like I just got it took literally until I was 20 to be
able to, for my entire family to realize that my leaving was to protect them so they weren't as
much of a target because I could not live there. And still, you know, I'd rather starve begging but
like doing that then have my family affected by a choice that I made a choice that I thought was
living the honest life, you know, and it took a conversation with my Mom to be like, hooyo, Abu
Talib, loved his nephew Nabi Mohammed, even though he was literally causing hell for him, his
tribe, his well being, and being called the daily like a crazy person or possessed by literally
everybody in his life, but he still defended a man who went against his core faith, he still died a
Kufar, he still died a disbeliever. You know, he still doesn't know he's still worship idols, you
know, but it was because of my family means more than that, if you don’t see that, I will find
family, and it just won't be you. And it just we had that, you know, moment of like, catharsis
between us. It took literally me making it into adulthood, making it my way in, you know, living to
tell them story about it. For her to realize that I made a good decision for her, the Family and
ultimately myself, because I'm in a good place now.
Sabrin Gadow 51:11
You referring to a prophet of like his life stuff like that making awesome letters to his life in your
life? Do you feel like you were chosen as well?
Ash Farah 51:23
No no no noooo. As much as I am borderline Kufar, now I'm not committing shirk, I just found
inspiring. That's all! I just found him inspiring and I find it like a good metaphor and stuff like that
for me to like, talk to my mom and talk to people that will view me as like this weird opposing
like, crazy person talking about like, Oh yeah, you can be queer Muslim, you can not be Queer
you can be queer and from some background and decide not to be Muslim. You can be Muslim
and do X, Y, Z because from diverse people, you know, and stuff like that.
While trying to remind people that through their own faith and stuff like that, like
People have been like people have been closed minded before in the Quran and it's not ended
up well for them. So maybe don't be like that?
Unknown Speaker 52:13
How does it feel to be told that because of your multiple identities and that you can’t be Muslim
when you’re like an Islamic scholar —Ash Farah 52:23
Oh I’m not an Islamic scholar.
Sabrin Gadow 52:26
I mean, like you’d win at a lot of conventions and you’re great reciter and things like that.
Like does it feel to know literally so much about the Quran, how does it feel to have someone
quiet literally struggled through their alif, ba, ta, [arabic alphabet] looking you dead in the face
and say that you cannot exist.
Ash Farah 52:44
I love that because it's not that you cannot exist is that my brain does not want you to exist
because then they will have to come up with this idea that Islam is more than their narrow
definition of the faith. At the end of the day is supposed to be easy.
Like, there was, you know, the story of like maybe Mohammed going into, you know, riding and
the baqra. You know, like, going on, you know, going to up to Jannah [heaven] and seeing all
the prophets and from Adam to you know himself and stuff like that and Allah saying that, listen,
this was prescribed I forget the exact number 40 times a day or something like that and moses
of being like, Nah man, if you're going back because my people couldn’t do even less than that,
so go back and back and forth between him and allah and he stopped at 5, the they decided
upon five daily prayers. And the lesson behind was Islam supposed to be an easy faith
accessible to all, regardless of race, gender, orientation, all that and I just until they grasp that
concept over there need to be you know,
Superior or their own prejudice with using justify justifying through the Quran they can I don't
think they ever will wrap their head around my existence?
… and I'm okay making people's heads explode because every fourth person starts to realize
well yes you can have both because like you know allah created people like me. So and that
you don't know everything you're just a stupid human being so follow your faith and be kind to
others
Sabrin Gadow 53:41
we're humans we live learn and make mistakes and grow and prosper. So as you a student at
Augsburg, can you talk about what kind of work you do here or that you are involved in?
Ash Farah 54:59
okay man. Um so I was a part of QIPOC like queer indigenous people of color which is a
student group here created to make space for queer indigenous people of color, of course, it
became a branched off of QPA, which is the main LGBT organization on campus. I'm the
current president and was on the board last year, really to create a space where queer people
of color can come together, chill, find solace in each other find community and get provided with
the resources that they need through and be able to come to social events during the campus
and stuff like that find people who have stories similar to them. It is a space for people who are
out and not out on campus, which is one of the you know, only spaces where people are
allowed to do that.
We make sure events are for the healing of the fundamental healing of our community, you
know, and we do various activities. We do various fun you normally do. Come together type
things because, you know, like, I want to create a sense of community here because in a
predominantly white institution and within those two, the two intersections alone, there's a lot of
ways that becomes a barrier to accessing the four year education here at this university. So it's
the least we can do as students to support each other through this horrific process, especially
since the majority of QIPOC are first generation and don't, you know, get this process at all so
it's better to go through it together.
That's what we do. QIPOC also has done resolutions for student government, for the protection
of trans people and trans day of remembrance. We also are part of the Equity Council, right
thing on campus and just various other student group collaborations with emphasis or this just
to insight a sense of intentional inclusivity, even in our Multicultural Student orgs.
Sabrin Gadow 55:01
I like how you say the word intentional inclusivity because (not just footnotes!) not just footnotes
because you're LGBT regardless.
LGBTQIA student services officially entered into MSS which was an intentional move to make
sure that we're including queer people who do have the identity where your a person of color too
so that is will not be treated like two separate identities.
How do you feel QIPOC is now navigating with the more boost of this new change?
Well, that LGBTQIA services included in MSS events being able to be under their wing not
either way, we'll be able to be like working closely with them despite that like do you feel that
this is a good move for QIPOC?
Ash Farah 57:54
I feel like this was ultimately a good move for QIPOC and was a move created and initiated and
pushed for by students last year.
We just did not like QIPOC only fitting really under on the LGBT student services or only under
multicultural services, which makes it really hard to find an advisor. Because, you know, like we
fit under both and I find that ultimately it'll be good for QIPOC students to be able to have
access to both things. Like and also have a space where they can be themselves among people
like them. So it's ultimately a good thing. Let's see.
Sabrin Gadow 58:26
How do you remain connected to your community or the causes you represent
Ash Farah 58:47
How do I remain connected to my community?
Well, I for now, due to a hate crime that was pretty recent and just trying to regain my own
health. I've been doing a lot of the direct direct activism that’s what I've been doing the last six
months.
Yeah, for the last couple months, um, but I just Yeah, but for the last couple months, but that's
Okay, because one way that I remain connected to the community that I want to represent and
that I am part of is through my student activism and student work.
So one way that I remain connected while trying to finish the course load of a pre med student is
through just like I had that horrific hate crimes. Sixth months ago.
Was it six months? I felt like no, it was July 4, actually.
About four months. Yeah, and the resulting concussion made school really hard to do so. I've
not been doing a lot of their direct activism that I've normally done but I've been active with
QIPOC on campus and creating groups and resources and reaching out to MSS groups and
stuff like that. So, students, the student group is one way that I have access to my community.
Another way that I like to remain connected to my community is through a book that I'm working
on. That I've been working on for about six months. And it's called, I don't know, I don't have a
title right now, but it will be basically be the Forgotten and 99 names, the other forgotten like the
other 99 names or something like that, where I would using the prompts of the you know, the
allah’s 99 names to showcase short stories and short interviews with Muslim individuals who
aren't typically included in the traditional narrative of what it means to be a Muslim. I mean, Like
for the obviously the most merciful, I will be talking about a friend miski, who in conversion
therapy had to had was literally taken back home for even more, you know, like conversion
therapy and stuff like that due to being a trans woman, which was seen as a form of
homosexuality and detestable by their parents. And she have not seen her since then. But, you
know, writing her story and what I know about her and how she did, and how she taught me
what, like, what mercy really like meant, that kind of thing on there's for the other 99 names, just
various, like queer Muslims or single moms or victim, Muslim women who've been assaulted,
sexually assaulted and all this by you know, just using the and interrogating these otherwise
forgotten stories and narratives into a, you know, short novel. And it's a process because it
involves interviewing a lot of people on a lot of topics that are very, you know, close to their
heart and not openly talked about in a lot of like Islamic circles, at least traditionally Islamic
circles that I've been in. And I think it'll be one way that I still remain connected in the
community, whatever presents also, another way that I'm remaining connected hopefully is by
the time I graduate, to start a another nonprofit.
Ash Farah 1:02:45
I co founded one early last year, which was for trans youth. Um, but another one which is we're
trying to come up with a name or debate debating whether we should say RUNTA which means
truth in Somali or come up with a more you know more pan-Islamic you know name for it but to
be an org dedicated for most queer Muslims and people from Muslim backgrounds who
happened to be queer and stuff like that so and just working on how that might look or what
types of events or things that might do so those are ways that I'm trying to stay connected.
Sabrin Gadow 1:03:29
Yeah, thank you and I as many other fans are, like can not wait for the book to drop
(laughter) thank you so much and thank you for your time. Thank you for sitting here with me
and talking about your path and your journey and it has been very informative and I want to
thank you for your time.
Sabrin 0:00
This is Sabrin doing an oral history project. Um Can you introduce yourself real quick?
Mustafa:
Yeah, this is Mustafa Jumale. Um yeah, uh 29. Black Immigrant organizer
Sabrin:
What identities or communities do you identify as being a part of?
Mustafa:
I am, I would say I am being apart of the Black immigrant communities. Um, also apart of the
queer community. And, you know, I think like I’m most connected to black organizers and
organizations, both like um multi generational African Americans and uh um black immigrant
folks I would say those are like my people really, you know? Yeah
Sabrin 0:48:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Yeah, um uh what do I wanna say about my childhood. Yeah, you know, um it was great, to be
honest. Of course, you know, growing up poor growing up as a, you know, as refugees fleeing
conflicts, having older parents who have to, like restart their life in a foreign country with new
customs and a language challenging but you know Alhamdulillah, like my parents pushed, oh,
you know, you know provided us with everything that we needed. Um I have 11 other siblings,
most of us live in the US. I have two siblings who live in Canada and one in Somalia.
Yeah, so my most of my life I've been in Minnesota, but when we first came to the US, we
settled in Kansas, Missouri, and then we live-moved to San Diego. Some of my siblings and my
cousin moved to Minnesota where they heard their jobs and then uh yeah. My brother got into
some trouble and was arrested and subsequently deported. And so my mom was doing a lot of
commuting back and forth between San Diego and Minneapolis and then ended up feeling like
Minnesota a better option for us as a family. So we moved to rural Minnesota, which was crazy
and in a city called Mankota and uh not very welcoming environment at all. And we were there
for like two years and then we moved to suburban Minneapolis, and Eden Prairie. And, you
know actually , some of my siblings still, one of them just moved out, the last sibling just moved
out of the complex that we had originally settled in the early 2000s. But yeah, so we moved to
Eden Prairie there was a larger Somali population, larger immigrant population. And went to like
middle school there and high school in Eden Prairie and transferred to Edina. Cause it was like
a shitshow for black migrant youth, particularly Somali youth. School was just being xenophobic
so I left and have yeah had a really better time in a Edina public schools and yeah.
Sabrin 3:37
Um, ok after you went to Edina public schools you went to the U of M, can you talk a little bit
about your experience at the U?
Mustafa 3:45
Yeah the U of M was great, I would say I had an overall a great experience. Of course, it’s a
historically white university, I mean, a predominantly white university so there the challenges of
being a student of color and immigrants in this space. You know, a lot of issues around policing,
particularly like the West Bank is like closest to the largest Somali population outside of
Mogadishu. Cedar Riverside, you know so the police just criminalize all Somalis basically on
the West Bank didn't know who was a student, some Somali kids, or some Black kids did
something, you know, does not mean you have to like criminalize all of the Somali students on
campus. So that was a particularly challenging thing. Otherwise, I would say adequate
experience. Was in the Somali Student Association, did a ton of research, met wonderful
friends. Some of them I’m still connected to. Uh, travelled to South Africa. Yeah, just like really
opened my eyes to many, many different things and opportunities.
Sabrin 4:53:
Yeah. So your apart of the Somali Student Association, at what capacity were you involved with
them?
Mustafa 4:56:
I was the outreach coordinator and I want to say at one time I was at, I was a secretary. Yeah.
And so yeah, I did it for one year, it was good. There was challenges, you know, because
they're just like different perspectives are just like different perspectives of the group, right? You
have people who are very liberal, people who were moderates, people who were conservatives.
So sometimes making decisions around like dancing, doing Dhaanto, cultural social things
where men and women were mixing were challenging, you know, but we got through it through
difficult dialogue, you know. Yeah the SomalI Student Association really,I think is a backbone for
Somali students not only in the capacity that they have to like just convene students, but to do
advocacy for them to, you know. And so I remember, like uniting as Somali students when the
Somali Student Association president, my sophomore year in college was like dragged out of
the Wilson Library on the West Bank of the U of M. An It was just that the University of
Minnesota police departments just at the time and I don't know these days probably the same
was just so Zena phobic and racist towards Somali students Yeah. I worked on a like oral
history project with immigration history Research Center at University of Minnesota. And that I
think was a significant project for me to like really understand other Somali identity, other Somali
youth identities and what there experiencing compared to what I was experiencing, transitioning,
again, part of being part of the 1.5 generation.
Sabrin 7:09
What do you mean by 1.5?
Mustafa 7:13
Uh 1.5 is like folks who were like born in Somalia, but raised in the US, like myself. So, you
know, like, I don't really have much of a memory of my time in Somalia. So, I would say that a
lot of like the 1.5 generation, we do a really good job of like, constantly negotiating, you know
the space between Somali culture and the US.
Sabrin 7:50
Yeah, so that's such an interesting way to say that. So you start a little bit about studying racism
in South Africa. How did that shape you as a person today?
Unknown Speaker 8:00
I think I my South African experience was really significant. You know, to like understand their
history about like, the trauma during apartheid that they had experience. It really helped kind of,
like inform my understanding and complexity around racism. You know, how racism can be so
complex and how racist ideology really like, is deeply embedded in these societies. And I will
say, you know, also like, just the way even that racism in South Africa is more complex, and like
different than other places. So that experience was really good for me like it helped me not only
understand like how the students in South Africa were being treated at what where historically
white universities and now are, you know, more and more becoming blacker and blacker. And
so at the time I was working on a research project with about the experiences of African
American and African students, predominantly white, and historically white University. So I
interviewed some South African students, you know about their experiences at these
universities and it's very similar experiences, you know, that you would imagine. White students
and fraternities doing ridiculously racist things, like the same things that you see on some of
these campuses in the US. I would say the way in which South African universities responded to
the violence that these white folks were perpetuating was much more progressive than how like
a lot of these US institutions and universities responded to. Really, I think like that tradition
comes out of their peace and reconciliation process. There was, God I forget his name now, but
I used to really be involved deeply in some of this research. But yeah, there was a minister of a
university that like some really fucked up, xenaphobic things happen. And he convened a whole
like reconciliation process, you know, obviously, the students were, I think, expelled and
punished but like, moving forward there needed to be a conversation. So going back to like
South Africa last year, and my own, a lot of the same issues, honestly, that I saw in all nine. So
10 years later, or eight years later, or nine years later. Xenophobia is still rampant over there
and the wealth still held by white folks. You know, there's definitely like the youth and listening to
what the youth and the like next set of leaders and how they will work around reparations issues
around land and money, you know. So now there's some really like progressive conversations
happening around that. But I don't think the current like South African Leadership would be,
would engaged in actually providing reparations for folks or taking land, taking and giving people
their land back, you know, from the apartheid.
Sabrin 11:49
No, definitely. The experience you had in South Africa really is a great one. How did that help
you when you came back to America and the next steps that you took towards your career?
Mustafa 11:56
Yeah, so when I came back, I just like continued to do that research. Do you know it helped me
realize, like, how interconnected the world is, you know, and how a lot of our challenges are
similar. And you know, at the time I had always had never left US, like aside from going to
Canada and so it was like really powerful experience for me. And so I just continue that
trajectory of like research did some more research on like, Somali history, Somali oral history
projects. And then yeah, and then I, I ended up like, you know, like being really connected to
some of those people. I'm in South Africa. So we're still in touch and you know, I still connect
with them.
Sabrin 13:01
That’s so nice. How would you define activism?
Mustafa:
I would say activism really is, is… Activism for me, it means, the way it manifests in my life is
that I pretty much have been working in public policy around human rights and humanitarian
issues. And the public policy work that I do now with Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI),
and the black immigrant collective work, and the consultation that I've been doing, I think, is the
form of activism because a lot of my work is just it’s mainly around issues that impact me and
my people and my community and I'm privileged in that sense to, you know, get to be paid for
the things I'm passionate about. For other people activism could be anything, you know,
anything that they're passionate about, like supporting in any way that makes us in their life.
Activism does not have to be like you showing up and risking your life in action. It could be you
donating, it could be you guys, whatever capacity you folks have. So, activism to me is
obviously like standing up for our fellow human beings really looking and making sure people
you know, have dignity in their lives and are not placed in a position where like, you know, I
guess the state violence will forever continue in this country but yeah.
Sabrin 14:55
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, no that was really great. You talk a lot about the work in activism you
do is policy work and that really contributes back to like the policy work you did back in, when
you used to work for Congress, Congressman Ellison and the work that you do for your current
organization called Khrye Solutions. Can you talk a bit about both those experiences?
Mustafa 15:16
Yeah, I had a really good time working at Congressman Ellison’s office. I mean, obviously, it
was really challenging. I was very young, and I was dealing with some, like, big community
issues, you know, like a lot of the work that I did was around foreign policy around human rights,
and so particularly around Somalia, Ethiopia, a lot of work on remittances. And remittances are
like money that's permitted back to people in their home countries, we call it in Somali hawala. Is
like and so basically people are sending, you know, maybe like monthly or weekly funds to their
families back home to support their basic living. And so I've done a lot of work on that. Me and
my colleagues were really leading the charge on remittances, on Somali remittances. And we
were able to pass a bill that provided like banks, a technical fix that they were asking about, that
they thought would help with the Somalia situation. Ultimately, it really did not help it. So the
deal that we worked on allows regulators to, to share information, you know, that state and the
federal regulators can now share audit that they do on remittances. And so did that.
And then did a lot of work on Ethiopian human rights. In 2015, you know, we had a bunch of like
folks who've been killed in Ethiopia, and there's a large Ethiopian population here in Minnesota
and so I wanted to build community to do advocacy around that issue. And really making sure
that that, you know, the US government holds these Ethiopian governments accountable, like
pressure to the Ethiopian government to not be killing its own constituents or its own citizens. I
worked with the Oakland Institute that's based in Oakland, California, on a resolution that was
passed last year in in Congress basically condemning the Ethiopian government for the killings,
the killings of the Oromo youth, Anuak youth, you name it. We did a lot of work also around O.
Chela, who's the Anuak leader in Ethiopia. And Chela was kidnapped by the Ethiopian
government, detained and tortured. And so we wrote a lot of letters to the administration, to the
White House, urging them to advocate for the release of Chela. Ultimately, he was released
when, you know, there was a big, like revolution like this, those uprisings that were happening
led to a huge shift in Ethiopian government, you know. Apparently so there's a new prime
minister, and upon when he joined, he released Chela and other political leaders, a lot of Oromo
leaders. So I remember reading that on Twitter, and this was after I had left Congressman
Ellison's office last year and just breaking down and crying, you know, just because I could not
believe Chela was released. I had never met Chela Amitabh at the Oakland Institute, helped me
figure out how to do advocacy around Ethiopia, in Congress, and they were working on his
campaign Campaign to get a Chela released. So that's how that's connected to that. But yeah, I
did that. And then so like really working for Congressman Ellison and other elected officials
really allowed me to like understand how state and federal policy works and how to move policy,
got to meet a lot of powerful leaders. And so that led me to like leaving Congressman Ellison’s
office and starting data Khyre solutions with my friend and then going I'm kind of like a retreat to
like a little time off to just relax. Because I was burnout. We were doing a lot of work around a lot
of work around voter engagement, a lot of work around the humanitarian lobbying. And so
ultimately, it didn't really work out for my friend. She was not interested in this type of work. And
I ended up continuing on my own. And then you know, Trump was elected. And as a result of
that, a bunch of us got together and established the black immigrant collective. Which is a
collective that is based in Minnesota that does community based advocacy work on black
immigration issues. It's mainly led by black immigrant women. So I've been doing that for almost
three years. And then through that I got connected to and more involved in immigration work.
There's also like several, like a lot of our work has been around Liberian DED (Deferred Enforced
Departure) because there's several Nigerians who are part of the collective. And so collective,
the collective started really after the Muslim ban was put in place like a bunch of us kept getting
calls and what like going on? You know, people who were worried that they were not going to
be reunited with their families and things like that because of this ban. Then from there, we
ended up working on immigration policies working on something called Liberian DED, Deferred
Enforced Departure. I call it Deferred Enforced Deportation. Yeah, so BAJI, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, reached out to them on us kind of thinking through like how we want to go
about doing this advocacy work. And so they flew out to educate us on some training. We got to
know them better, what they do. And then they invited us to DC to advocate for Haitian
temporary protected status. And temporary protected status is a status that folks are given when
the country that they're from experiences a man made crisis like a civil conflict or environmental
crisis, you know, like the hurricane, earthquake, things like that.
And so the administration so --Trump administration-- is terminating TPS for terminated TPS for
Haiti. So what that meant is that you know, close like 56 or 58,000 Hatiain TPS holders were
gonna become undocumented and be required to leave the country. And that's not even
including their children who would leave with them problaby, who are US born children. And so,
yeah, and so from there, we went to other convenings. And so they were there was a lot of, you
know, as the cookie at the time around Liberian DED, like a small group of people, Liberians, I
think we're working on it and other advocacy organizations. But we really came in there and just
like really uplifted the Liberian DED situation. And so Liberian DED is similar to TPS except that
the President of the United States has to extend it every year, so it's a discussion of the
president to extend, terminate or to terminate. So he decided to in 2018, he decided to
terminate it and provide people with like a year to get out of the country.
**techincal difficulties from 24:34 to 25:20 **
Sabrin:
Ok, we were talking about the president deciding to terminate DED in 2019 or 2018.
Mustafa 25:29
Yeah, so what he did was that, you know, he put the Liberians on noticed who were on DED.
Which, for us, we think it's about 4000 or 5000 Liberains who have that status. There are a lot
more eligible for that status. However, because of the, because of the fees associated with it, it's
expensive. You're talking about $400 $500 every year a pop applying for this. And so and we're
talking about people who are poor working class immigrants, and so some families have to
make the tough decision of deciding who in their family, usually the breadwinner is going to get
renewed. And so, and for others, they become undocumented. So, thankfully, you know, like, for
the past several years, you know, DED has been continued to be renewed every year.
And so, because of our advocacy, we actually were able to get DED comprehensive
immigration. Wait not the comprehensive immigration bill that was discussed a couple of years
ago in Congress. Okay, let me pause. I’m confusing myself. Okay, so what I'm trying to say is
that Congress earlier this year passed a bill called the Dream and Promise Act. It provides a
pathway to permanent status for DACA dreamers, TPS holders and DED holders. And so DED
is really only like 4000-5000. We got it to the point where they were included in that major piece
of legislation. We uplifted it as like a bigger issue with an immigration policy. And then all of a
sudden you have people like Nancy Pelosi and others speaking about the DED anytime they
talked about TPS. And that's how they talked about DED, which is great. And so as a result of
many, many years, I've only been involved in this for like the past three and a half years,
Liberian DED work. But many Liberian aunties, predominantly - and women, Liberian womenhave been doing this work for many years, for the past 20 years. And so in the past three years,
we're able to make a lot of strides. I think because the environments that we were put into
require us to act quickly and aggressively to protect our people. And so as a result of that
Congress last week passed a defense bill, defense bill passed in the House and then passed in
the Senate. And so the in that bill- first of all that bill is toxic. That bill is basically like, providing
funding to people, you know, military support for foreign governments, expanding our military
industrial complex here. But within this bill, there's language that Senator Jack Reed put in that
provides permanent status for Liberian DED holders. So that bill was passed in the House last
week, it's kind of tomorrow, the Senate is gonna vote on it. They expect the President to sign it
sometime this week. And just like that, you know, Liberians who have been undocumented for
20 years, in a couple of weeks can apply for a green card.
Sabrin:
That’s amazing.
Mustafa:
I know, this is such a big deal, you know, and so, I mean, this is probably one of the only
progressive immigration themes that have passed in this administration you know, and so I,
yeah. You know, for me, I've been doing this a while, and so I have the technical experience, so
do other people in the collective. So , yeah, it's just been simply amazing to see what we’ve
been able to do
Sabrin 30:09
Yeah, it's so nice to see your hard work and other people's hard work actually amount to
something, especially in this administration. And not only but an administration whose past
things like the Muslim ban, so that this got past is absolutely amazing. I am so happy for
everyone who affected. Okay, so you talk a lot about how you got into activism through policy
work and stuff and like activism through your schools, Somali Student Association and the
programs and jobs you've worked afterward. Do you think that you actively chose to become an
activist or do you think that fell into your lap and not fall into your lap but, like fell into your path
as you got older? And if so why?
Mustafa 30:42
So I've always been interested in like, human rights I've always been interested in protecting
and advocating for vulnerable communities and people. I think what really saved my
understanding around the complexities and the challenges we face as people of color in this
world when I went to college, and so I would say that, that really pushed me into working on
issues that are impacted by, you know, working on issues that people are being impacted by.
And from there, you know, I was gonna go to graduate school and become a professor. That
was a track. That was the idea. And then I decided not to out of circumstances. And I didn't get
funding to go to graduate school, you know, I was admitted to Cambridge University in the UK. I
was going to study African, get a MA (masters) in African Studies and didn't get funding so I
decided to work for the Minnesota DFL. I was TAing (teacher’s assistant) for a class at the U,
and one of my students encouraged me to apply for it. So I organized around East African
issues. And then from there that led me to working in politics and working in policy. I mean, it
was not an easy experience. I experienced a lot of trauma in this process. You know, I fell down
and burnt out myself one too many times, but continue to like, get up and try again, keep going.
The racism and xenophobia inside the Minnesota DFL and Minnesota politics in general. It’s
Crazy. The work that needs to get done, you know, around it to really make sure that we are
seen as equal partners in the Democratic party here. And so I'm no longer really organizing
around Democratic electoral work. I mainly now just focus on issue based teamwork, you know,
like immigration, other issues, the policies of those things so, and, you know, doing some
advocacy and activism around that. I'm not, I don’t foresee myself, like ever getting involved in
the Minnesota DFL. Again, just because I don't have I mean, I don't have time for that. I think
people are trying to change here. Hopefully, it becomes a more inclusive organization. But yeah,
I mean, like working at the state legislature and organizing what them, these people really don't
understand. Like these people, I would say are really taking advantage of people of color, but
are not coming through for us when it comes to issues that matter to us.
Sabrin:
That’s definitely true, especially with the DFL it always feels like they’re there for us during like,
when it's time to vote, and when we have to like elect our officials, but after that they kind of
seem to just fade out and not be some concerned are like our policies or issues that affect us. It
just feels like we're being used, which really sucks. And it caused a lot of burnout and frustration
because it feels like not being supported by the community or political group that’s supposed to
support you. And it’s really frustrating. Moving onMustafa 34:18
Yeah,
Sabrin 34:19
Oh, sorry keep going.
Mustafa 34:21
Yeah, no you're right it’s frustrating. That was my DFL experience.
Sabrin:
Moving on to our next part. Do you still, are you still part of the faith?
Mustafa 34:37
Yeah, I consider myself Muslim. You know, I grew up in a Sufi household and so I really like the
Sufi tradition. I was lucky enough to go to Somalia with my father in the last couple of months of
his life. And from that experience, I really got embed myself in the tradition of the Sufis in
central Somalia in particular, and it just really like opened my mind a lot of their traditions and
their practices. And then you know, I was going through a crisis you know, like my dad was
dying so I started reading the Quran
Sabrin:
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Mustafa 35:20
No, thank you. Yeah, my friend. And so my I started like reading the Quran, but the English
version of it. And I remember like my uncle and my other relatives being so fascinated and so
shady about me reading the Quran in English. They were just like really surprised, they were
like ‘Wow. How can you do this?’
Sabrin 35:52
It's almost as if Old Arabic is such an easy language to pick up like, I know people who have like
master the Quran, but there's no one single thing about it because they don't understand the
language in it. So the fact that you can even read it in English is such a good way to learn more
about it but still have a connection where it's like I know it's going on in other words, I know how
it relates to me and my life.
Mustafa 36:13
Yes, I consider myself, I, you know, like, really value the experiences like that I had with the Sufi
tradition. And a lot of it was like meditative to be honest I got involved in meditation center for a
while and a lot of it reminded me of that, you know, chanting, sitting in silence, meditating to
this very rural, very rural place called Burroraqadi, I think it’s called that. I’m probably
mispronouncing it but, like I think it translates to like a place where a lot of people died. But I
went to a Sufi university, that one of my relatives was teaching. And I was like, it was so
beautiful, you know? It was so tranquil, like, so peaceful. And the women had their own mosque.
First time I ever saw that. And because most times, you know, you see the mosques like they
don't provide a lot of space for women.
Sabrin 37:39
Oh, it's always like they’ll have the men’s side decked out 10/10 beautiful, clean head to toe.
And the women’s side will be like an empty broom closet Two rugs in there and they say, why
are you upset? You’re lucky you are even being allowed into here and you're like, ‘Oh, my bad.
How dare I expect right oopsie never again. But, no, it's really nice they have their own
mosque, that’s something they don't really see. Yeah, so how does being Muslim cosign with
your activism?
Mustafa 38:06
Oh, I think it's part of my faith calls me to it. Yeah. For sure. Like to like, stand up for people's
dignity and humanity and rights and being struggle together across communities and in an
intersectional way. Yeah, I really do believe that my faith is really what caused for us to be
involved in our communities.
Sabrin:
Islam is a religion of peace.
Mustafa:
Oh yeah, just tell that to the administration.
Sabrin 38:51
Hoepfully they’ll understand soon enough. What is your experience as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa 38:57
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Sabrin 39:02
Oh, I’m sorry. What is your experince as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa:
Oh, I would say, good. You know, funnyliy enough like a lot of the people even leading the
liberation work are queer black folks in black communities tend to be queer. So like, for
example, if you look at the National Immigration advocacy world, particularly the folks that do
advocacy around black immigration issues, most the majority of the folks network are queer
black migrants are leading that work. And so I would say, like, the ways that it intersects,
honestly, is that it allows us to, like view some of these issues in a more complex way, you
know. So, for example, like we, I was recently writing a letter on Somali temporary protective
status for a member of Congress. Basically they're sending that letter to the administration to
advocate for Somali TPS status to be reinstated. And in that letter, I wrote like, if Somali TPS
holders, are sent back to Somalia, you know, like women and people from marginalized
communities, like queer Somalis, will be persecuted and girls. You know, and, so I think it just,
it layers, like the kind of work that we do. I would say it's also challenging because, you know,
some people are stuck in their ways around queerness. like as if so, like, as if, like, I don't know,
I actually don't know how to explain this. Like, I think it's just homophobia, you know. I'm like
trying to figure out a nice way to say this but it’s homophobia.
Sabrin 41:01
Some of the most complex feelings and emotions can really boil down to homophobia. And
that's really sad. But it really is a-
Mustafa 41:07
It’s homophobia because yeah.
Sabrin:
It really is.
Mustafa:
YeahSabrin:
Oh, I’m sorry did you have something else to say? Ok, so you talk a lot about about the reasons
why you do this and your experiences and like the work you've done. How does your family
think of your work? What does your family think of your work?
Mustafa 41:37
Yes, just to like finish that thought on the queer Somalis. I'm used to queer activism.
Sabrin:
Oh, Im sorry
Mustafa:
Yeah, no, the only thing I was gonna add is that like the word so I was telling you how like the
majority of the people, the black migrant organizing nationally, and leading the policy work on
queer black migrants, the people that we work with directly impacted based on my experience
has really welcomed us and accepted us you know as who we are, and are grateful for the work
that we do. You know, and I've really become like kind of like family to us. I think there are some
people who may be intimidated by you know, queer folks and don't want to work with us. And
that's that, we can’t do anything about that.
Sabrin:
Yeah I’ve definitely realized growing older and like, like moving more into my adulthood is, when
you get people by themselves, their gonna be really cool and their understanding but group
dynamic or group think belief, because the majority will only sway the few and that real sucks.
Going off that, what does your family Think of your work?
Mustafa:
My family is very supportive of my work. I think they're very supportive of my work and I've
always been honestly like. You know, they've heard my broken English, I mean broken Somali,
on BBC Somalia talking about remittances and TPS for Somalia. Other issues so they're proud
that I'm able to like, work on issues that our communities. Yeah.
Sabrin 43:23
That’s so nice. Ok, Any final thoughts or statements you'd like to add?
Mustafa 43:39
But what I would say is like, I'm really inspired by the Somali queers youths that are up and
coming right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing that the work that they lead in the future.
Like over the weekend, I was just observing stuff on Twitter, that like a bunch of Somali queer
youth were just engaging in like, just dialogue around, like queerness and sexuality, you know.
Like this, this young Somali queer woman or femme? I want to say probably probably like 19 or
20 or 20. Posted a pic of her and her girlfriend, you know, some of the Somali Twitter just kind
of went south.
Sabrin:
Yeah. Some people, are just jobless and have so much time to comment.
Mustafa:
Yeah, but its so inspiring to see how the Somali queer youth are responding. How they are
likeI'm here and not afraid. It really brings a lot of warmth to my heart.
Sabrin:
That’s such a beautiful way to end things off. People as always say the youth are our future, and
it's so nice seeing the Somali youth stand for themselves and who they are and undeniably live
their best life.
Mustafa:
I know right? And for a lot of them, I feel like Canada is where it’s at for Somali queers right
now.
Sabrin:
The way Toronto is popping for no reason.
Mustafa:
I know! You see that?
Unknown Speaker 45:23
Thank you so much time with me. I really do appreciate it.
Show less
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All righ... Show more
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
It is November 22, 2019 and I'm Chyanne Phravoraxa. I am the oral historian for this oral history
project. And I'm here with Amal Issa. Can you state your full name and age?
Amal Issa 0:15
My name is Amal Issa, and I'm 18 years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:20
All right. So we're gonna start with your background. So where were you born and raised?
Amal Issa 0:25
I was born in Minneapolis, downtown Minneapolis, and I was raised here so I lived here all my
life.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:32
Okay. And how many siblings do you have?
Amal Issa 0:35
I have eight siblings, two brothers and sisters.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:40
Nice. So growing up in Minneapolis, did you feel like you were surrounded by your community?
Or did you ever feel like discriminated against?
Amal Issa 0:52
I, I felt I was surrounded by my community, because I think outside Somalia, Minnesota has the
largest population of Somalis? So I was constantly surrounded by Somalis. I didn't feel left out,
in a sense.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:06
Nice. So, in terms of your religious upbringing, how was that like? :ike, did you guys go to the
mosque often? Did you celebrate the holidays?
Amal Issa 1:16
Yeah. I'm Muslim. So I spent like, a lot of time in mosques and celebrating. We only have like,
two holidays. So yeah, we'd celebrate those. But we wouldn't really- So I went to like a small
school so we would get it off to celebrate, but like when I got into university, it's not considered a
national holiday. So I'd have to like skip class.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:43
Oh, okay. So can you give more detail about what you remember growing up and celebrating
the certain traditions and stuff?
Amal Issa 1:53
Yeah. Um, when we're celebrating, this is like a one specific restaurant we always go to. And
like, we've been going there for, however many years it's like, tradition now, for us to go there.
But it feels weird when we don't go, because over the summer we were out of the country. So it
was only my dad and my sister left here. And the rest of us didn't go, so it felt kind of weird
adjusting to life outside of what I grew up knowing.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:25
So when- You said, You guys go in the summer. So is that for Ramadan? Or what is that for,
when you go to the restaurant? Or is that just like a family thing?
Amal Issa 2:35
It's for Eid. So our two holidays. Yeah. But yeah, the last one was in the summer, but we're out
of the country. So we didn't end up going.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:44
Okay, so how was it like going- or going in? I mean, going to Somalia?
Amal Issa 2:48
Um, it was weird, because it's my first time out of the country ever. So it took a lot of adjusting.
Like, when I'm in Minnesota, it's like, "oh, you're too Somali". But when we're there everyone
knew us as the American kids. So it was kind of like, it put us off a little, because everyone, like,
even when we didn't speak, everyone automatically knew us. I think we're like the talk of the
neighborhood. But it was weird kind of adjusting to the different way of life. And it could be that
hard to adjust to it. I liked it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23
So how long were you there?
Amal Issa 3:25
Two months.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:26
Two months? Okay, and did you stay with family or did you go to like, a hotel or something?
Amal Issa 3:32
No, my mom was renting a house there. So, we stayed there for two months, but we had family
over every single day. So it felt it felt nice, because everyone's so busy when we're here, but
there's it's like a new person's coming to visit us every day. It was nice.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:47
Oh, it's nice. And how was Eid there compared to here? Like how you celebrate it? What would
you say?
Amal Issa 3:55
I missed Eid here. It was weird over- It was nice. But I was just so used to having- Celebrating
Eid here. So it felt kind of weird, but we went to the ocean, which is pretty nice. It was very
pretty. But we spent it around family, so I liked that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:14
How are you involved in the Muslim community and how were you like, I guess, as a child and
then to now like, how were you involved in community? Muslim or like, Somali too?
Amal Issa 4:26
Okay. Um, as a child, I spent most of my time surrounded by Somalis, as I said earlier, but I
went to like a small, charter school, that was mostly Somali. But now going to University of
Minnesota, I kind of want to give back, so I volunteer at the Brian Coyle Center in South
Minneapolis and I just helped tutor kids there. It's a nice experience and I get to help out in my
own way.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:56
Yeah. And at Brian coil- So can you give more detail on that program like, what kind of kids are
there or is it connected with other schools?
Amal Issa 5:04
Yeah. Okay, so the Brian Coyle Center is like a community center for the Cedar Riverside area
in South Minneapolis. It's close by here. But it's mainly Somali- A Somali community, people that
live there. So a lot of Somalis come in, but I work. I volunteer in the Teen Tech Center, and it's
funded by Best Buy. But what I do is, I tutor youth between around like, 5th to 9th- 10th grade,
and I just helped them with their homework. It's mainly after school, so if they ever need help,
the kids that live inside the area, they come and they get that they need.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:47
And how long have you been volunteering there?
Amal Issa 5:50
About a year and a half now. I started there, because of the scholarship I got, but ended up
really liking it. So I went back.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:57
Oh, nice. So you're talking about the University a lot. So what made you choose the University
of Minnesota?
Amal Issa 6:06
Honestly, my first choice was Augsburg.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:09
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 6:09
Yeah, I was like, set on coming here. But along the way, I had like some financial issues. I
applied, I got accepted and everything, but there's like some financial issues. So I ended up just
like, on a whim, choosing the University of Minnesota. I didn't really want to go there, but I love
it. It's so much more different than I thought it would be.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:29
So what did you think it would be like? Or like why didn't you want to at first?
Amal Issa 6:34
Well, my sister goes there, so I thought it would be weird. But, um, I grew up like in South
Minneapolis, really close to the University of Minnesota. So I spent a lot of my time there. And I
felt like I knew what was going on there. And it seemed like really small to me, but it's gigantic.
It's amazing. It's beautiful. But, um, what was the question?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:59
Oh, I guess I asked you- Sorry, I asked you what made you go against it before? Yeah, what
you thought about it before and I guess what you think about it now?
Amal Issa 7:08
Yeah, I thought it'd be like a small school, because I went to St. Paul college and St. Paul
College was a really small and diverse- When I came here it's, you know, a predominantly white
school, but I love it. It's big. There a lot of opportunities and a lot of different things I could do to
feel kind of like at home.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:31
Okay. And, um, do you know your major yet?
Amal Issa 7:35
Yeah. I'm majoring in mathematics. Hopefully to minor in Arabic.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:40
Okay, cool. So they have- They offer Arabic classes then there?
Amal Issa 7:45
Yeah, I'm taking one the semester. I wanted to minor in Spanish, but I just gonna put that on
hold, because it's a little too hard for right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:53
Yeah. So how is the Arabic class? Is it like what you thought it would be? Or- Or did you have
expectations of it?
Amal Issa 8:01
Yeah, so growing up Muslim. Arabic played a huge plays a huge role in my life. So I thought like
I knew enough, and I did not enough, to like get me by, because in like an Arab country or
anything, but I really don't know anything about the basics, but it's- My teacher is great. It's
making me fall in love with the language and that's why I want to continue, because- Just the
way he teaches it makes me really like it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:31
It's great. So I'm sorry, I guess I'm jumping back to like Islam. But um, how do you think Islam
affects your everyday life? Like do you pray or is there anything that you do?
Amal Issa 8:45
Um, well, it affects the way I dress because I wear the hijab every day. But yeah, I pray every
day. It doesn't really affect my life, because I just have to take a couple of minutes out of my day
to go and do my prayers, but I think it helps me feel like more at ease, knowing that like thingsthings will turn out okay.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:09
And when did you start wearing your hijab?
Amal Issa 9:12
Um, I'm not sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:15
Oh, you're not sure?
Amal Issa 9:15
It's been a while. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:16
Oh, okay. Yeah. So moving on to, I guess your current life in terms of like Sisterhood Boutique
or like your after high school life, I guess. What made you connect with Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 9:36
It's a weird story, because my sister, um, interned there summer of last- 2018. Yeah, summer
2018, my sister interned there and I was unemployed then. I was just at home, most of the time.
And my sister was going to go on a camping trip to the Boundary Waters. So she's like, "oh,
since you're at home all the time, uh, you should come along". So I was like "Okay, why not?"
We ended up- And it was with Sisterhood Boutique, so I invited a friend and we ended up going
camping with them for a week. It was brutal, but I guess we kind of bonded, while we were
there, because the store manager,at the time, went with us and she offered us jobs afterwards.
We ended up interning there and I interned there for about eight, nine months, and then my
internship ended, the beginning of the summer, right before we left for Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31
Oh, okay. And can you explain what you did at Sisterhood Boutique?
Amal Issa 10:37
Yeah, so for the most part, we'd work on the store floo, just arranging the front and doing
inventory in the back, helping customers. But we also attended a couple different events. We
helped with their annual fashion show. And yeah, that's mainly what we did. But since I stopped
working, I just go back a couple times a week to help out.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:05
Yeah, that's sweet. So what other events do you remember? Other than the fashion show?
Amal Issa 11:12
I can't remember their names. But, um, I was invited to represent, like, Pillsburg United
community. So Sisterhood is under the Pillsbury United Community. So I was invited to present
them at the Women's Foundation of Minnesota. I think it was in like April, I think. Yeah. So I was
invited to represent them. And it was like an equity summit, at the Radisson Blu, but it was a
really cool experience. Oh, what else did we do?I can't remember most their names. But we
went to a lot of events.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:49
That's okay. Is there anything you'd like to say to people in your community or like any
messages that you would like to put out?
Amal Issa 12:00
I guess there's like, a lot of problems with the youth right now. So just like a message, would be
like, we'll get through it. I mean, our parents survived Civil War, so we can survive anything. So
we'll get through it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:15
And when did your parents come here? Like, did any of your older siblings come with them? Or
born in Somalia?
Amal Issa 12:22
No. So all of my siblings and I were born in Minneapolis, but I think my mom was like, 19 when
the Civil War broke out, and she met my father in Canada, soChyanne Phravoraxay 12:32
Oh really?
Amal Issa 12:33
Yeah. They- So they fled, during the Civil War and my mom- She went through a lot of different
countries, but I know she ended up in Canada and a dad somehow ended up in Canada. That's
where they met and then they decided to relocate to Minnesota and we've been here ever since.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:51
Okay, and are any of your extended family to like your aunts or maybe grandma, grandpa?
Amal Issa 12:59
Yeah. I've never met my grandparents. But one, my dad's mother is in Somalia right now. And
the rest passed away already. So I never met them. But I have a couple aunts and uncles
scattered around the United States and Canada. But I'd say most of my, like, close family's back
home in Somalia.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:25
What do you hope to do with your degree in mathematics?
Amal Issa 13:28
Uh, I'd love to be a teacher. So I'm, I'm studying mathematics, but I'm also in the direct track to
teaching program at University of Minnesota. And in order to get into the licensure program, I
have to major in the subject area I want to teach. So, yeah. That's what I'm doing right now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:47
Okay. And do you have an idea about what age you're thinking of teaching?
Amal Issa 13:53
I'm stuck between to middle school and high school. I still don't know yet. But one of those
hopefully.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:58
Chronologically, where do you stand in your siblings? Like are you the middle child or
youngest?
Amal Issa 14:06
I'd say somewhere in the middle. I have three sisters older than me and then five siblings
younger than me, including my two brothers. So not exactly the middle, but around that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:23
Okay. About that restaurant that you're talking about, so when do you remember your first time
going there? Or have you- your family been doing that like before you were even born, because
I know you're like, kind of in the middle-ish.
Amal Issa 14:37
It start started, I think maybe like 10-12 years ago, but I'm not sure exactly when. I think it was
too young to remember. But yeah, it was a while ago, and we started going to like another one
also, but now it's been about 8 years so. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:59
So you mentioned going to the charter school, as a child. So what other ethnicities did you, likeI guess were you learning with or like other students?
Amal Issa 15:11
Okay, so the majority were Somali, but there's also like different, um, Arab cultures like
Egyptians and Syrians but also like Pakistanis, Afghanis. But mainly Somali.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:30
And was- Oh, sorry. What were you gonna say? Oh. Was the- was Islam ever like tied into it?
Amal Issa 15:38
Um, not really. They like, give us like a certain amount of time, if we needed to go pray, but
other than that it wasn't really tied into it. But for holidays we would get it off. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57
And for the university- Because you did say that there was a change in like, being surrounded
by your community and then going to university, did you ever feel like uncomfortable or was it
just new?
Amal Issa 16:09
Okay, so when I- 2016, when I was starting my junior year of high school, I started doing PSCO
at St. Paul College first, and St. Paul college was really diverse. And I had a couple of my
friends who were doing PSCO with me, so I was very comfortable there. It was a bit of a
change, but I was still comfortable. But I graduated from high school and St. Paul college, um,
May 2018. And then I started at the University of Minnesota, September 2018. And it was a big
change 'cause I didn't really know anyone there. And it was- It's a predominantly white school,
so I was mainly surrounded by white people and it felt different because I was so used to be
surrounded by Somalis and my friends and it was a bit uncomfortable, but I got used to it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:00
Just judging from what I've heard about, like you being involved in like the Sisterhood Boutique
and you went to the events, are you involved in any other activist stuff?
Amal Issa 17:11
Any other extracurriculars?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:13
Yeah, that too. Yeah.
Amal Issa 17:15
Um, well, for my teaching program, I have to, like, observe, like a high school teacher or a
middle school teacher teaching. So I'm, I'm usually a South High- South High School in South
Minneapolis on Fridays and Thursday mornings, just observing a math teacher. But other than
that, I work through the University of Minnesota with America Reads, and I'm literacy mentor,
around Franklin at- it's called Projects for Pride and Living, but yeah, I tutor there. Like two days
of the week.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:53
So how does that compare to Brian Coyle? Because I know you tutored up at both but they're
different, like organizations.
Amal Issa 18:01
So with- PPL is Projects for Pride in Living, so I'll just call it that. PPL, I worked with just one
student each time I'm there. So we like get into a habit of doing things a certain way. But when
i'm at Brian Coyle, I work with a bunch of different students and sometimes like there's really no
one to tutor. So I'm just like hanging out. So it's a little different, in that way, but it's very
structured at PPL and Brian Coyle was kind of like, "whoever comes comes". So it's kind of
different in that way but I like both of them equally.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:39
And what do you think of your- I guess, I forgot the term. Was it- does the observation I guess or
is that- that's not an internship, right? You're just observing the teacher?
Amal Issa 18:49
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:50
Okay.
Amal Issa 18:50
It's just, I, service learning. That's what it is.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:53
Oh. Okay. Service Learning.How is that? Like can you give me more details on it?
Amal Issa 18:57
Well, yeah. Um, so when I first started, I was in a chemistry classroom, and I'm a math major. I
took chemistry like four years ago. So I don't really know anything. I forgot everything. So it was
kind of weird. But the teacher was a great teacher, I loved his way of teaching. And then he
somehow got me into a math classroom to observe that, and she's also- the teacher I'm working
with, she's also a great teacher, it's just a bit calmer. It's interesting to look at stuff from like, a
teacher's perspective, the teacher's perspective now, because I've been so used to being a
student. Yeah, that's kind of interesting and like a new experience.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39
So, um, this is just from my knowledge of like, education majors, but when do you start getting
involved in like, becoming like a teacher's assistant and like, teaching with them? Do you know?
Amal Issa 19:54
Um, I think that'll be when I'm in the licensure program. So after I can make bachelor's, is what I
would think. It's my first year in the teaching program, so I'm not really sure. Each school's
different, butChyanne Phravoraxay 20:07
Oh, okay. And other than becoming a teacher do you think you're going topursue more
education or any other plans, alongside being a teacher?
Amal Issa 20:18
I don't want to stay in school very long. But um, originally I wanted to go into the medical field,
but the years of schooling just put me off, and I love teaching, so I was like "Uh, I could do this
instead!". But I'd love to be like an EMT or paramedic one day.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:36
Oh, really?
Amal Issa 20:36
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:37
Okay.
Amal Issa 20:38
We'll see how that goes. I was gonna say like, I'm thinking of applying for- So St. Paul and
Minneapolis, they have like an EMS Academy thing that they do every year, so I was thinking
maybe I should apply for that next year.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:55
That is so interesting, because of- because of your history, as like becoming an teacher and
then the EMT, I wouldn't imagine, but that's interesting. When you start teaching, do you plan on
staying like within Minneapolis?
Amal Issa 21:09
That's a hard question. I'd love to travel outside, but at the same time Minneapolis is my home.
I'd like to sort of give back in a way. So I think I'd teach here first, for at least a couple of years.
Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 21:25
Nice. You said there's problems with the youth like, do you? Can you pinpoint them? Or likeAmal Issa 21:34
There's a lot of problems with opioids right now. And I went to an event at Brian Coyle, a couple
weeks ago, and they were just opening up the floor to bring like questions that the youth have
forward about it. And they were just also educating the youth and their parents about the
different types of drugs and how they affect you. And if you see someone having an overdose,
what you could do. And they were like handing out in narcan too. So I thought that was very
interesting and it's just like- It's been something that's been like kept quiet for so long. It feels- It
feels nice to see it being brought up into the open and hear people talking about it and like trying
to take steps forward to see how they could help people who are suffering from like with drug
abuse.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:33
Um, I think- Because we did watch a video. It was like by Somali TV, in class, and it was like this
woman talking about her addiction, so i think, i don't know if that was like from them?
Amal Issa 22:45
Was she sitting?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:46
She was sitting and there's like two guys or like, I don't know.
Amal Issa 22:51
Um, they held that like a week or- Two or three weeks after the one I went to. So I didn't really
see that one.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:58
Oh, but they were not connected like by an organization or?
Amal Issa 23:01
I think they were. There's this group called, like the- Changing the Narrative, and they're the
ones that held the first one and I think they might have helped organize that one too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:12
Okay and why do you think this is happening within the- within the community?
Amal Issa 23:18
I really do not know. I don't know. It's- it's kind of like, a new topic to me too, because it's not
something like, I've heard of. But where I grew up- Where we live right now, it's not really the
safest and we like see things that people shouldn't be seeing. So it's like, not that new to me.
But it's new to me, in the sense that I haven't heard of it happening in the Somali community as
much.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:49
Oh, okay. Thank you so much for coming them all. Are there any last things you'd like to say?
Amal Issa 23:57
Not really.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57
No? Okay. Thank you very much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Aisha Sow 0:04
I'm Aisha Sow, I'm a part of the oral history project for Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University.
I'm here in St. Paul, Minnesota, interviewing Valerie Shirley. So sister Valerie, if you can introduce
yourself to the recording by saying your full name when and where you ... Show more
Aisha Sow 0:04
I'm Aisha Sow, I'm a part of the oral history project for Muslims in Minnesota at Augsburg University.
I'm here in St. Paul, Minnesota, interviewing Valerie Shirley. So sister Valerie, if you can introduce
yourself to the recording by saying your full name when and where you were born.
Valerie Shirley 0:23
I am Valerie Shirley. And I was born in (Southside) Chicago, Illinois. And {censored}
so, saying that you're were born in Chicago, Illinois. What? What experiences has that impacted on your
life?
Well, growing up in Chicago, it had good times and bad times. We grew up in the inner city, Chicago and
in a really poor neighborhood. It was really crime ridden, drug ridden. If you didn't have a lot of money,
you couldn't really live anywhere safe in Chicago and my mother was very poor. Growing up in Chicago
was tough taught me to be strong, but I had a very loving mom who protected me and protected my
brothers. Um, I have four brothers and two sisters, one sister on my father's side. So she didn't grow up
with us. But she did grow up in Chicago not too far away from us. My mother protected us and she taught
us how to love and how to keep ourselves safe. So it wasn't always bad.
Aisha Sow
What lessons that you learned from your mom do you think have the biggest impact on your life?
So the biggest impact from my mom, I would say is two things, the gift of literacy, and the gift of
unconditional love. My mother only went to eighth grade. She was born in a time she was born in the Jim
Crow Era. And that was a time where you could easily fall through the cracks for a black person get an
education wasn't that important. nobody really cared if you dropped out of school. So my mom dropped
out of school at a very young age. But she somehow knew it was really important for me to go to school.
And it was really important for me to learn to read, and she taught me how to read at a very young age. I
can remember reading to my mom, at three years old, I would be reading the newspaper to her, and she
would correct my articulation and tell me how to say this sounds and she gave me phonemic awareness.
And it turned me into a person who loved reading. So going to school only till eighth grade. I don't know
how she knew it was so important for me to be in school and be smart and learn how to read but that's
something she gave me a passion for learning and passion for reading. The second thing was
unconditional love. It was like family first, family over everything. And she made sure that she always put
us first even over herself. And when anybody in the family was in trouble, we all bonded together.
Because that's what our mom taught us to bond together to take care of each other. And no matter what it
was like you always love family, no matter what they can go through hard times, things can happen that
seem really bad. And they can make you angry, but you still love them and you still support them no
matter what. So those are the two most important things that my mom gave me. A love for literacy and
unconditional love.
Aisha Sow 3:39
That's amazing. So, knowing that you grew up in Illinois, how did you get to Minnesota?
Valerie Shirley 3:47
Well, that's an interesting story. So I grew up in Chicago, and I had two daughters when I was in my mid
20s. And like I said, I grew up in a really crime infested drug ridden neighborhood. And teen pregnancy
was just off the charts. And just anything that you can imagine that our social ills that happened in
poverty stricken neighborhoods. And I used to tell myself that I had to protect my girls from all of the
negative, negative ways that society could impact them because I had seen too many victims of society.
No matter how hard you worked to raise your kids safely, somehow they were lost to tragedy or teen
pregnancy or substance abuse. And I remember saying that I need to be I need to have my daughters not
be a part of the world. Know about it and understand it but not get lost in it. And at the time, my
children's father explored Minnesota a friend of his had moved to Minnesota, and was telling them how
nice it was and how you don't need a lot of money to live in a safe neighborhood in Minnesota and how
the public schools were so much better than Chicago public schools. So it was actually due to my
children's father that I moved here. I was a student at Northeastern Illinois University at the time, and he
convinced me to move to Minnesota telling me that it was a better place. And even though my roots were
deep in Chicago, and all my family was there, I said, Okay, I'll give it a try. And packed up and moved to
Minnesota and he was right, some much better place to raise kids. It was so much easier for me to protect
my kids here than it was in Chicago.
That was in 1998 when I moved to Minnesota,
Aisha Sow
Wow. That's when my parents came. Was the transition between coming from Illinois to Minnesota a
hard one? Or was it relatively easy in your opinion?
Valerie Shirley
It was relatively easy in my opinion, because it was a nicer place to live. I think the only odd things about
the transition was that it was a little bit of a different culture. Chicago is big city fast living and Minnesota
was kind of small town compared to Chicago, even though it's city you know, and it's urban. But it was
very different. And I remember standing on a bus stop here in Minnesota, and to get on the bus. There
was a very nice straight line in order to get on a bus and that didn't happen in Chicago, you just bum rush
the door in Chicago, and if you do first when they get there, you get off the bus. So there was no order
organization like that. And I can remember having lived here, maybe one or two months, and I was
standing on the bus stop, and I was the only person there. And this guy came up and started talking to me
and he was talking about the weather and baseball. And so I've got my Chicago mentality on and I'm like,
oh, Lord, he's about to rob me or he's about to try to do something wrong. So I strap my purse around my
whole body and put it behind him making sure he can't snatch it. And then I stood and ready stance. So in
case I needed to fight, I was all ready and guarded. And he was just he kept chatting. And I was thinking
to myself, what is this dude up to? I was, you know, not really listening to him. I was just ready for
something to happen. And then he looks up at the bus stop sign and says, oh, the 22 doesn't stop here.
Wait, I'm on the wrong stop. Well, nice chatting with you. I hope you have a great day. And he walks
away. And I'm like, hey, wait, was he really Just being nice to me. And that taught me something about
the difference of the culture. I was like, oh, Minnesota nice. It really is kind of nice, I guess, you know. So
the only transition was being able to let my guard down a little and not know that everybody that
approached me with small talk without the get me because in Chicago, that's a red flag, get ready for
something bad to happen. But other than that, it was, um, it was relatively easy.
I think another difficult transition, I guess was that in Chicago, racism and discrimination is very much
alive. It is everywhere in the United States. But in Chicago, you know, who does not like you? It's very
clear, you know what neighborhoods not to go in. You know, what white people don't like black people.
They're very open and clear about it. In Minnesota. All the white people act like they like you no matter
what. And then behind your back, they do things like get you fired. And, you know, and do things to like
harm your family, you know, maybe not physically but socially and emotionally. So that was a difficult
transition. I thought that so many white people were my friend until things happened like me being
targeted at my work for being myself. And, you know, if I acted too black and I didn't code switch, and so
that was a little bit of a difficult transition, transition, just having to play this political game of knowing
who I can be myself around and who I can't. So other than that, everything was pretty, pretty easy.
Aisha Sow
Um, so just a little background story have, have you in your family been Muslim for your whole life or
was it later in life?
Valerie Shirley
So for me, I became Muslim later in life. I actually became Muslim one year After I moved here, maybe
about one year after I grew up Baptist Christian, and for the most part that Baptist Christian was
something we put on applications because we didn't go to church very often. When I became an adult,
more so when I came about 16, I really wanted to start to explore my religion, which was Christianity at
the time. You know, teenagers have this time of storm and stress and turmoil and you feel like nobody
understands you and just everything's horrible. So I was going through that time, my teenage years, and
my my brother, who is now an ordained Christian minister, I can just remember him saying, you need
God in your life. You need God in your life whenever you you know, whenever you are feeling hopeless
or helpless, just open the Bible and read it. I can remember him telling me that so many times, and he, my
brother, was really my father figure. Our father was not in our lives. And so I looked to my brother and I
really respected him and trusted him. So, and I would do what he said, I would pick up the Bible when I
read it, and lo and behold, my heart would be lightened, and I would feel guided, and I would know what
to do, and I wouldn't feel so hopeless. So I've decided to start going back to church, and, or going to
church because I can only remember going once as a little kid, but I started looking for a church that I
could go to because people, Christians look for a church home. And so it's like, I'm going to find a nice
church I can go to and couldn't find anything that I was really very interested in. Churches would turn me
away because I wore pants or I would find that people were very gossipy and you know, very, like
backstabbing and it was just like, I'm like, these are not believing people. You know? That's how I would
feel like that's not how God fearing people are supposed to act. So what I decided to do was like, I'm just
going to read the Bible from cover to cover, I want to understand it myself, because I would. So I started
reading it. And then I had questions. So I was like, I really need to go back to church because I got to ask
pastors to explain some of this stuff to me that I don't understand. Went back to church and started asking
questions, but I was met with a lot of negativity, they were like, you don't question the Bible. And that's
the devil making you ask all these questions. In retrospect, I think they just didn't know that I answered
them because they weren't like theologians. They weren't like Christian scholars, you know, they were
just ministers or you know, leaders of the church and stuff. So, you know, people would always say, you
need Jesus, that's the devil in you. And so that ran me away from church again, and I was like, You know
what, I'm just going to ask God to help me understand it. And I read the Bible from cover to cover and I
Um, one thing I didn't find was Jesus being crucified. And I always thought that was just the most
horrible story of like, you know, why would God allow Jesus to be crucified? And how is God and Jesus
the same? You know, it was just that whole Trinity always had questions about it and nobody could
explain it. So I read the Bible from cover to cover and that led me to studying other religions. You know,
I was like, You know what, I want to study Judaism and I studied that and then either like, you can't
become Jewish. Unless you were born and went to a Jewish mom, like, okay, can't do that. I studied. I
mean, I studied with Jehovah's Witnesses. I studied Buddhism and Confucianism and I just started to
research all these old religions and one common theme now mind you, I studied everything but Islam.
Why? Because I lived two blocks away from temple number 73. The Nation of Islam and the fruit of
Islam paraded our neighborhood. And I knew them well. I respected them, they protected us, and they
were very respectful. But they were always telling me that the white man was the devil. And they told me
I couldn't eat greens and sweet potatoes, I'm like greens and sweet potatoes is what my mama raised me
on.
I'm not giving up greens and sweet potato you know, so it was really odd so I thought I knew what Islam
was. I didn't know at the time that that was a sect. That was a sect of Islam. I thought that they were you
know, genuinely This is Islam. So I didn't bother to study that because I knew what that was about. And
over, studying all the religions, I found one common theme is that everyone believed in a higher power. It
was all about faith and forgiveness and mind and body and spirit and keeping the body clean, keeping the
heart clean and generosity and I was like, every religion says this So I was like, You know what, I'm not
going to label myself. I'm just a believer. I'm not a Christian. I'm not a Buddhist. I'm not you know, I am a
believer. So I started studying metaphysics. And I thought I had it, you know, I thought I knew what was
going on because I was like, I'm going to become one with the cosmos. And um just so happened that my
first husband took his Shahadah. And I was happy for him. You know, I thought he was like, lost because
I was like, God didn't make the word religion. That's a man made word. So, I was like, you just have to be
a believer. And I was like, okay, you're Muslim huh. Okay? I'm like, I'm happy because he was agnostic
before. I'm like, I'm just happy you believe something. So that's great for you. And, lo and behold, I
moved here to Minnesota with him. And I met a lot of his Muslim friends at the University of Minnesota,
because I entered the University of Minnesota to finish my degree. And I went to what they call I think
it's Islamic Islam Awareness Week now or something like that they have it every spring, but I think it
might have might have been the same thing back then in 1998 or 99. And there was a lecture by a brother
and I remember it was Muhammad in the Bible and Jesus in the Quran and, and that was very interesting
to me because I already read the Bible, from cover to cover. I went to that, and everything that he talked
about what Islam was, was what I believed, and I couldn't deny that this is something that is calling me, I
went home that night, and I had all these weird dreams people chasing me with Bibles telling me, what
are you going to do about this? What are you gonna do? And I was like, I mean, it was like, it was really
odd. And I woke up the next morning and said, I need to become Muslim. And I took my Shahada by
myself, I picked up one of those little pamphlets that said, how to become a Muslim and, oh, take a bath,
so I ran my bath water, you know, make ghusl and said my Shahada. And there it was, I became Muslim
in 1999.
Valerie Shirley
Yeah, so that was a long story.
Aisha Sow
So that kind of piggybacking off of that, seeing that when you came to Minnesota and you learned the
difference between how people in Minnesota act before versus people in Chicago, do you, do you think,
what's it called? Your Muslim identity affected any way that they interacted with you or you were a you
weren't that expressive yet? Yeah.
Valerie Shirley
When I first became Muslim, I really only hung out with Muslims. So I didn't have a lot of connect to,
like just the mainstream community of other religions, because I became Muslim. And I was hanging out
with the Muslims at the university. And then I started teaching at Al-Amal school. So I was working with
Muslims going to school with Muslims living at home at Muslims. Because my husband was Muslim and
our kids were little they were 11 and four, so they automatically became Muslim.
So I didn't notice much interaction from the outside community for a number of years. until I started
working in public schools, when I started teaching in public school districts, then I was very expressive
and I'm very outgoing person. And I'm pretty aggressive actually. So when people would say things, I
would automatically correct them and people always would ask me a lot of questions. So I was always
happy to answer their questions. And so I just spent a lot of time given dawah, but I didn't.
Not a lot.
Just I don't know I think Allah protected me honestly. Because, like all my life, even if I wanted to do
stuff that was bad, somehow Allah pulled me out of it, without me even knowing. I mean, I would try to
go hang out in bad places, and somehow one of my brothers would catch me or something would happen,
and even here in Minnesota, as an adult, I would have friends who were not so savory, but they were kind
of fun, those kind of friends, you know, you shouldn't be with them too much. And I would hang with
people like that sometime and they would just disappear from my life.
Aisha Sow 20:16
Hmm
Valerie Shirley 20:16
They would just move or the circumstances in my life would separate me from them, I'd get a new job or,
you know, we just so I honestly feel like Allah has been just protecting me from too much negative
interaction, if that makes sense.
Aisha Sow 20:33
Let's live a very peaceful life.
Valerie Shirley 20:36
I mean, of course, I've have experienced tragedy just like everybody else. But yeah, Islam gives me the
ability to cope with tragedy. So,
Aisha Sow 20:48
So one quick question, what did you study in school?
Valerie Shirley 20:52
I studied Elementary Education when I first started school. Well, actually my first first starting of school
Way back in 1985. And I studied accounting. But then I got pregnant with my first daughter. And I was
like, Hmm, I better finish up quick so I can get a job and I changed my major to secretarial sciences,
sciences because I already had, like a lot of keyboarding and math classes that you need it for that for
clerical work. And then I went to work for a while. And then I went back to school for elementary
education. And I was an Elementary Ed major to become a teacher, and I was a music education minor.
And then when I came to University of Minnesota transferred here, I went right into the elementary
education program with college education, human development, and I was a music minor.
Aisha Sow 21:48
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 21:49
And I remember being at the masjid and somebody asked me "oh so what are you studying?" I was like,
elementary education and music education. Somebody's whispered, "Isn't that haraam" what you were
like? And so people started whispering, "like I think music is haraam, she shouldn't be studying that".
And so I got this, I got this fear.
And I was like, Oh my god, I don't want to do anything haraam. I'm a new Muslim.
Aisha Sow 22:16
Yeah
Valerie Shirley 22:16
So I just want to be halal that's all I want to be. I want to be right and only do anything that's forbidden.
And, you know, I didn't know a lot back then I changed my major, major in music, and now I kind of
regret it. Because I'm like, you know what? I'll never forget somebody telling me Allah ordered the
destruction of musical instruments. Nobody should be playing music. And I was like, What, really? But
then I thought about it. I was like, if Allah ordered the destruction of musical instruments, guess what,
there would be none.
So it was just really crazy that that impacted me and I changed my major and I graduated with my
bachelor's in elementary education. But I honestly changed it along the way because my son got sick.
Aisha Sow 23:08
Yeah
Valerie Shirley 23:09
He got sick with meningitis and he became deaf, my youngest son, and when he did that, I started taking
sign language in school.
Aisha Sow 23:17
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 23:18
So that's when I fell in love with sign language and realized that I should do something else. And so I
changed my bachelor's from just being elementary education and I went to my counselor and told him I
wanted a bachelor's in individualized study so I could create my own. So I had changed my major like
several times, so I had all these credits from all these crazy places. And I changed it and got element of
bachelor and individualized studies with a focus on deaf education, elementary education and Native
American history in Law.
Aisha Sow 23:54
Wow
Valerie Shirley 23:55
And then after I did that, I went back and got my masters in Deaf Education and started teaching deaf and
hard of hearing children.
Aisha Sow 24:04
Um, what were there any hardships for you when you first started learning how to do sign language?
Valerie Shirley 24:13
Not really. I absolutely fell in love with the language. And the deaf community kind of embraced me
because whenever they found out that I was learning sign language so that I could communicate with my
son. That was a big perk. And I figured out that early on, I my first sign language class I was an hour late
and went to University Minnesota thought the class started is six started at five. She was like my classes
for I was like, Well, I was hoping I can get a magic number. Now mind you, she's deaf and she's talking
to me through an interpreter. And she was like, "No, I'm not giving out any magic numbers" and my eyes
started to water. I'm really emotional. When she, you know, rejected me like that, and my eyes started to
water and she saw my face. And she said, Just sit down, you can stay here for this first class. And so I
went and sat down. And
as I sat down, she said,
"Now I'm, you know, I'm going to tell the interpreter to leave. Does anybody have any questions?" And I
remember thinking to myself, what she can tell the interpreter leave how we going to learn. The
interpreter laughed, and she started teaching us and lo and behold, it's an ASL immersion class, and we all
learned very easily. And I was just like, wow, this is absolutely amazing. I was just so impressed. At the
end of that class. She called me up and she wrote back and forth to me in English and said, "Why do you
want to be in my class?" And I said, "My son is deaf and I want to learn sign language to communicate
with him" and I handed it back to her, her face turned red and her eyes filled up. And she said, This is
wonderful. I'm going to give you a magic number. You are at absolutely going to be in my class. And I
was like, Whoa, like that holds some weight. So every time I met a deaf person, I was like, I have a deaf
son.
And they were like 'Oh my God, that's awesome.' You know, come to find out.
Out of like all the deaf people, all the deaf people in the US, I guess 90% of that population have hearing
parents only 10% of deaf people have deaf parents. So out of that 90% who have hearing parents, only
10% of them learn how to sign and communicate with their kids. So most of the deaf people in the US
who do not have deaf parents are not able to communicate with their families. So that impacted the deaf
community in a way when they see I'm one of the 10% I'm one of the small people that take the time to
learn how to use sign language in order to communicate. So that's, that's pretty heavy for the deaf
community. And, you know, not saying anything bad about that, you know, 90% of hearing parents that
don't learn sign language, there could be anything that impacts them and make them not be able to learn
it, maybe they can't learn and maybe their cognition is not up to it. Maybe they have two or three jobs and
they're single parents, and they're taking care of too many kids or, you know, it could be any reason
keeping you from doing it. But a lot of parents don't learn sign language. So that was, I don't know where
I was going with that point. But I just remembered that that carried a lot of weight in the deaf community.
That's crazy. I never knew that. So how many of your family members know sign language?
Well, my immediate family, all of us, I came home and taught all of my kids sign language, everything
that I would Learn I would come home from class and then teach them what I learned and we learned
together so that they would be able to communicate with their brother. So, yeah, my oldest daughter,
who's now 32. Her first career was American Sign Language Interpreting. She ate, just having a deaf son
really changed the trajectory of our lives and, and all of his other siblings are fluent. And my current
husband is learning to. He's not quite fluent, but he's doing pretty good.
Aisha Sow
Wow, one impact and just change everything and sometimes it can be for the better.
Valerie Shirley
Yep, absolutely.
Aisha Sow
So now that you have a lot of experience in sign language and your family knows and you've been a part
of the deaf community, do you think it's changed your perspective in any way on how you handle things
in your life?
Valerie Shirley
Absolutely. Absolutely. It has changed the way I handle everything in my life.
I when I started becoming involved in the deaf community was really in about 2006 or seven. I met a
close friend of mine who I had known since I had taken my Shahada. She was really one of my teachers.
She really taught me a lot about Islam and she was a very close friend still is. She has two Deaf siblings.
And when I started learning sign language and my son became deaf. I found out that she had two Deaf
siblings. I didn't know that before. And when I found out she had a deaf brother in a deaf Sister, I was
like, Oh my god, I want to meet them. And when I met them, well, I couldn't meet one because he was in
jail. And when I met the sister, she was a really staunch Christian and she was studying to become an
ordained minister. And I was thinking to myself, how does a whole family of Muslims have this Deaf gal
who's a Christian? And I wasn't looking down on them or anything thinking anything bad, I was just like,
wow, how did this happen? Because I didn't know a lot of Muslims who had people who converted in
their family and I knew all Muslim families and everybody was Muslim.
Aisha Sow 30:30
Yeah.
Valerie Shirley 30:32
And so come to find out, they were not able to communicate with her so they were not able to teach her
Islam. So she was able to learn about Christianity because the church had interpreters. So I was like, wow,
I and she was very, she was not as connected to the family. As you know, a family member could be and I
just thought to myself, I don't want that for my son. I want him to be connected to the family. I don't want
him to feel like he needs to go away from us to be able to learn about spirituality and faith. And I just
prayed I was I just asked Allah to find me some deaf Muslims. I was like, I know there's gotta be more
Deaf Muslims somewhere in the world. And sure enough, you know, Allah connected me with so many
deaf Muslims worldwide. I met a deaf man from Ghana. First, I met a deaf lady from Somalia who lived
here. And the deaf guy from Ghana. I actually met him because a friend knew that I was looking for Deaf
Muslims. And she saw these Deaf guys get on stage at the ISNA convention. And they had interpreters
and she was like, Oh my god, I gotta send this to Valerie. And so when she sent me the video, I saw who
was on on stage with him and I knew Abraham Hooper of CAIR Minnesota and I was like I need to
contact Brother Abraham to find out who those Deaf guys are. And I got in contact with them. And man
that just changed everything. I helped them start up the organization, Global Deaf Muslim. And that led
me to starting Minnesota Deaf Muslim community here in Minnesota because I just noticed, I started with
thinking they need access to Islam, they need to be able to understand the Khutbahs, they need to be able
to understand Islamic classes, so they can understand their Deen, and they can feel connected. When I met
so many people, I just realized that there were so many other needs,
Aisha Sow 32:46
Mhmm
Valerie Shirley 32:47
you know, without the ability to communicate. They didn't even have access to like natural resources like
maybe you came here for you can't even go fill out a food stamp application because maybe you use
Arabic sign language or you don't you gesture and you lip read in Somali and so you can't communicate
with the ASL interpreters and, you know. So that's how MDMC was born really is to open up an
organization that would help the population of death, who have very limited access, they can't even access
American sign language interpreters. So that's how it kind of started and it's just changed my life because
my life is really all about that now, my life is really just, that's where my passion is now. So it's impacted
my life in every way. Like I eat, sleep, drink, dream, live, the deaf community.
Aisha Sow
So I have one teeny question, How did you incorporate Islamic terms into sign language
Valerie Shirley
So learned from honestly there are a few.
Well, there's one guy in particular who moved here from Yemen. And he knows Arabic sign language.
And so we use Arabic sign language in Arabic sign language. There was always terms for things like
Allah and Alhamdulillah and Masha Allah and all those little terms that we frequently use. SuhanAllah,
He taught me the signs for those things. And I've just incorporated those into American Sign Language.
So I use American Sign Language, but when I sign Arabic words or Islamic terms, I use the sign that I
learned from Arabic sign language its every country has its own sign language. Well, not every country I
don't think Somalia has a sign language but most countries around the world have sign language and just
like English is very different from Italian. American Sign Language is very different from Arabic sign
language and it's very different from Italian sign language and Turkish sign language. So we just use
Arabic signs and incorporate it to american sign.
Aisha Sow
So um seeing that the Muslim community here in Minnesota is so diverse. And so you'll have so many
different people and many of them some of them happen to be deaf, how are you able to efficiently
communicate with different people with different cultures?
Well, it it can be difficult sometimes. But there are some deaf here that are fluent in American Sign
Language and also fluent in Arabic sign language. So we use them to help us facilitate communication
among people who don't know about American Sign Language. And most of the people that come here
from other countries, they eventually start to learn American Sign Language and, and then they become,
you know, trilingual as they normally have like their native tongue from their country, they probably lip
read in that language. And then they sign Arabic sign language and and they start learning American Sign
Language here. But we use other deaf to facilitate communication who will know the sign language that
the deaf person uses?
Aisha Sow 36:30
So with the startup of MDMC, were there any struggles that came with it or?
Valerie Shirley 36:40
The struggles are still there. Yes, there have been so many struggles, um, it's
it's really, you know, annual sustainability is always a struggle just financially. It's a struggle keeping the
organization afloat. But internally, unfortunately, there are divisions in the community. And not
everybody in the community wants to support MDMC and, and then there was gossip that flew around
and, and then, you know, conflicts in the community and, you know, then the reputation of MDMC was
damaged and now it's trying to, you know, rebuild its reputation. And so yeah, there have been struggles
for a long time. But because I'm passionate about ensuring the success of this organization, mainly
because my son who's deaf and he's also cognitively delayed, so he's considered Deaf plus. And so with
his additional cognitive disability, that's like a double whammy for him. It's going to be very difficult for
him to Maintain gainful employment. And I want there to be an organization that will support people like
him and help people like him exceed their potential, you know, meet and exceed their true potential
because he can do so much. But because he cannot read and write, his options are very limited. So I'm
passionate about ensuring the success of this organization so that it can serve people just like my son.
Aisha Sow
So what are some programs that you guys have? Because I know the sheroes that you did for PBS, I
believe. I think you talked about something about an alternative literacy program.
Yeah, alternative literacy support is one of the biggest things that we do. Because English is a barrier for
many deaf, not just the deaf immigrants. You know, it's really difficult to learn a language that you cannot
hear.
Aisha Sow 39:06
Yeah.
Valerie Shirley 39:07
So learning English and being able to comprehend it at high levels can be really difficult. So a lotta
individuals in the deaf community will get maybe letters from Social Security or immigration or just from
anywhere, you know, the english is very high level and difficult for them to understand. So what they can
do is they can bring their paperwork to MDMC they set up an appointment for literacy support, and we
will literally read the paperwork or the application or whatever it is for them in ASL. We read it to them
inside to help them comprehend it in their own language. And if it happens to be an application or
something that they need to fill out, we will ask them the questions in sign language and They can reply
to us inside. And we will script it in English and then we stamp it saying that this forum was filled out
using literacy support from MDMC. So that's one of the things we do. And we offers driver's education
when we can, like now we're unable to like offer any services because we've, you know, it's a volunteer
board, and we just been so busy but we've offered drivers and we offered interpreters at Friday prayer.
We offer free interpreting services for deaf individuals who are not able to afford it like if they need an
interpreter for a personal reason that is not government paid. Like if a deaf person goes to the doctor the
federal government requires for the doctor to provide an interpreter or insurance to pay for that. They go
to court or something like that. They are legally, you know, required to be provided with an interpreter.
But there's a lot of situations that organizations don't have to provide them with an interpreter. Like for
example, if they go somewhere to buy a car, the people that are selling them the car don't have to provide
them with an interpreter legally. And so there's so many places. And the Deaf, like I said before, often
can't communicate with their family. So maybe there's a family reunion or family dinner and they'd really
like to chat with people so they can get a free interpreter for two hour blocks to help them access
communication. And we provide interpreting services at community events. We paid interpreting services
where organizations can hire interpreters from MDMC to give deaf access. Yeah, I think that's about
sums it up.
Aisha Sow
Isn't it hard to find interpreters through MDMC or..?
Valerie Shirley
you know it is not we actually have a pool of about 20 interpreters that we can pull from. We have offered
trainings on Muslim sides. And so we have interpreters who have knowledge of Arabic sign language and
American Sign Language, at least to the level where they can interpret for the Muslims at Muslim events.
And so it has not been hard for us to find interpreters. Back in the day when MDMC was first starting in
2013, I was really the only person but as we started to provide trainings and workshops and more people
got to know about us. More people have been willing to work with us.
Aisha Sow
So what are some future plans that the MDMC has?
Valerie Shirley
Well future plans for MDMC, I and the board had been talking about how we can turn MDMC into a self
sustaining organization that has businesses that are Deaf lit, Deaf employed and Deaf run. We know that
English is a barrier, and that for almost every job in America, you need to fill out a job application in
English you need to be able to read and write in English. We know notice that there's only one thing that
is not a barrier is becoming an entrepreneur. So we hope to train the Deaf, Deaf plus, Deaf and those who
are hard hearing on how to become entrepreneurs and business owners and we will use a variety of Deaf
employees. To run the organization with a few hearing employees who are there to facilitate in access to
English and communication with hearing people, and to provide literacy support, so we hope to open
businesses and have the deaf employ themselves.
Aisha Sow
Are you guys going to be working with any other deaf organizations here in Minnesota and maybe even
nationwide?
Valerie Shirley
We hope to we hope to we do partner now with organizations locally who serve the Deaf and Hard
community deaf and hard hearing community. So we Yeah, we partner with smaller nonprofit
organizations who are doing things similarly to us. And yeah, we plan on continuing to do that and
branching out even more.
Aisha Sow
So what are some future plans that you have for yourself?
Valerie Shirley 44:56
Well, some future plans I have to myself so I'm back in school right now I'm in Educational Leadership. I
am currently getting my special ed directors license and K 12 principal license. So I plan to probably go
into administrative, you know, into an administrator position in the public school system. And I hope to
after I get my sped director license and my principal license, I hope to go ahead and get my
Superintendent license. So maybe I will go ahead and be somebody's superintendent. We don't know
maybe St. Paul public schools hopefully.
Aisha Sow 45:41
You're gonna be busy.
Valerie Shirley
I'm going to be very busy. You know, it's either that or MDMC is going to have great success. I pray to
Allah. And then I can just manage MDMC and be the executive director of MDMC and still follow my
passion working with the deaf community, but still be able to pay the bills. That's right now MDMC is not
self sustaining.
Aisha Sow
So knowing that you have so many life experiences now at this point in your life, what is I guess maybe
it's a two part question. Um, what do you say is like keeping you up and keeping you going and what is
the one favorite moment that you've had from all the work that you've done?
Valerie Shirley
Well, what's keeping me up and keeping me going? It's definitely my kids, my family and the kids that I
work for and St. Paul public schools. Kids deserve to have the best lives they can possibly have and
knowing that I can help kids really keeps me going.
I think, a favorite moment that I have, there's so many but I just have to say a recent one, my, my deaf son
turned 18 this April. And I promised that I would take him to all the deaf adult functions that happened. It
was like he's a big boy now I'm going to take him everywhere with me and we just went to a birthday
party of one of our friends, and they had bowling and food and it was just a really a lot of fun. And my
son who is very quiet and has a lot of anxiety. I watched him navigate that room of deaf adults and go
chat with them and ask them to take selfies with him and, you know, just socializing in a way that I've
never seen him socializing before. So that's that's one of my favorite moments seeing my son as an adult
actually having people that he can communicate with people who love him and people who I trust that he
will be able to just build community with.
Valerie Shirley
Favorite for me.
Aisha Sow 48:19
Thank you so much sister Valerie for coming in here today and your story was so awesome and beautiful.
So, um, I hope the best for you in the future that you have so much success and everything that you want
to do with MDMC and anything in your personal life. Thank you so much again.
Valerie Shirley 48:39
Thank you so much.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Amran Ali 0:03
Today is Monday, November 25. My name is Amran Ali. This interview is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you can introduce yourself
to the recording and say when and where you were born.
Siham Isse 0:18
Hi, my name is Siham.
I was born in Kenya i... Show more
Amran Ali 0:03
Today is Monday, November 25. My name is Amran Ali. This interview is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you can introduce yourself
to the recording and say when and where you were born.
Siham Isse 0:18
Hi, my name is Siham.
I was born in Kenya in 2000. March 23 2000. Yeah.
Amran Ali 0:32
Thank you. To begin, can you describe how life was for you growing up in Kenya?
Siham Isse 0:38
Yes. So it all started when I was born.
I was born and Maria Stomm Hospital in a little tiny. Not a suburb is the hood. But
it's like a little tiny suburb of Nairobi, Kenya. And yeah, I lived in that
neighborhood until 2005 when I moved to America, but life in Kenya was pretty
simple. I just lived in a one bedroom house with my mom and my aunt who's
technically her friend. But um, yeah, we just lived in a one bedroom with one
bathroom. And then I went to I think I did preschool there, but it didn't seem like
preschool because I already knew how to read and I was doing multiplication. But
um, yeah, it was just super advanced. And we wear uniforms and I felt like
everybody was way more mature than preschool. Because for a while, I thought that I
did first grade in Kenya, but I did not it was just preschool. But yeah, I used to
go to school. And then after school, I would go to dugsi, which is like, like a
school where you learn about the holy book in Islam, and you memorize it and stuff.
Yeah. And I used to go to dugsi and I used to walk everywhere by myself. It was me
and my friend, like my friend was my neighbor. We used to walk together to school,
we used walk together to dugsi even though I was literally four years old. I just
had a lot of freedom, and not really freedom but just because it was a safer
environment. My mom was way more okay with me going out by myself like walking to
people's houses by myself than she ever was with me here in America like even now
I'm like 19 she's still like checks up on me like where you going? Who are you
going with? Bla bla bla. So just because I think Kenya was way safer back then at
least. Um, but yeah, it was just a simple life as all my family was there within
walking distance from my house and everything. I dont know I feel like I was really
happy I had a happy childhood. You know, nothing nothing ever serious ever happened
to me. But and then yeah, I came to America in 2005.
Amran Ali
Nice.
2:32
Awesome.
And then quick, what would you say you identify as?
Siham Isse 2:40
Um, I'm a Somali, Somali, Muslim, Woman. Yeah.
Amran Ali 2:47
Okay, um, Can you recall any specific events from like your childhood that you
would say shaped how you approach the world. It can be in general or more specific
to you being a Somali Muslim woman.
Siham Isse
Um, so
3:01
yeah, so any
Well, I don't really talk about this a lot, but I am technically an orphan. But
it's not something I feel like it did shape me in some ways, but not in a not in
such a way that people think that it would shape you. Just because I never felt
like I didn't have parents or family. I was officially adopted by my aunt in 2014.
But she she's only she's only mother that I know. I never knew another mother or
father honestly. She raised me because my mother died when I was 10 months. So from
then on, my aunt has been the one to raise me take care of me and, you know, give
me a life. So she's my mom. I've never referred to her as my aunt or you know
anything other than my mother. So yeah, just sometimes I tell people that they're
just really shocked. And the fact that it's not a big deal to me. I think it would
have been a big deal. You know, I, I'd grown up with a mother and father and then
you know, they were taken from me and I have to move from place to place and
everything, but I'm still with my biological family. My aunt is my mother's
biological sister. I don't know who my dad is. I don't know his family. Anything
about that. So yeah, I'm very connected to my mom... to my mother's side of the
family, my cousins, my aunt's my uncle's, everything like that. We lived together
in Kenya. Or, I mean, we lived next to each other in Kenya. And then when I moved
to America in 2005 they moved shortly after just a couple months after we did.
We're very connected, I feel like my family's a really big part of who I am and my
identity. And so I think the fact that I was adopted by somebody who was in my
family who I share blood with, definitely impacted how, you know,
I see my orphanage and
I'm putting quotes around orphanage.
Yeah, but being adopted by her officially 2004.. in 2014 was really interesting
because I feel like officially that now that she was my mother, people started
seeing her as my mother. Because all the other documents and everything that we
ever filled out, she's my legal guardian. She was never, you know, parent, but
then when she adopted me it was like officially Who was your parent? You know, my
mom, even though she was always my mom so yeah.
Amran Ali 5:30
Thank you. Thank you so much for sharing that.
Yeah. So now, do you want to tell me about your transition? Because I know you were
talking about how you moved to the United States in 2005. So just talk about your
transition from Kenya to the United States?
Unknown Speaker 5:47
Yeah, of course. Um, so it, it was a big transition. Obviously, there's a lot of
differences in terms of schooling and just the culture in Kenya and in America. So
I was 5. I think it was November 2005. So it was already pretty well to the school
year. And when I came, we didn't really have a place to live. So we just stayed in
my, my aunt's basement who already lived here. She lived here for a couple of
years. Yeah, so we stayed in her basement, it was just me and my mom... me, my mom
and my grandma. And my younger cousin and my older cousin, all of us came together
in like one flight and one, you know, one migration basically. And I think one
thing that I distinctly remember is the fact that the first place in America that I
was was New York, and we were only there for like six or seven hours, but I
remember the smell. It was so disgusting.
Siham Isse 6:40
It smelled terrible.
When we got off the... when we got out of the air um the airport, we had to go
sleep in a hotel for a couple of hours. And I just remember it smelled like garbage
and dirt and just like unwashed people. And it was just super disgusting. And my
first thing that I found out about America was that it smelled different and I
immediately wanted to go back. Um, but I remember the food was really interesting
because I remember we had philly cheese steaks in the airport. And then my younger
cousin just threw up all over the place like projectile vomited all over my mom.
And some of it got on me too. So in my green card picture, which they took at the
airport, I have like a little bit of vomit on my shoulder and it's disgusting every
time I look at it. It's just so funny because I remember what it smelled like. I
remember how good the sandwich was. And then I remembered how just disgusted I was
in general because of my cousin. So after that, we came to Minnesota, and we were
staying with my aunt in her basement and then in January, I'm not sure about the
details, but like we were being helped by this church slash government funding
thing. And they found us an apartment. It was definitely government housing, but it
was a small apartment in East St. Paul. And
sometimes I think back on it, and it
was just such a wonderful experience because it was so small, but I loved it so
much. And it was in such a terrible neighborhood. Like it was in the ghetto ghetto
ghetto. And I remember, First or kindergarten, I went to Bruce elemento Elementary
School, which I think was one of the worst schools I've ever been to in terms of
education. I couldn't tell you what I learned in first and second are in
kindergarten and first grade. And I'm just so thankful that the fact that I knew
how to read because I think I would have been held back if I didn't know how to
read and I went to that school because it was terrible. Yeah, It was just a lot
going on. But I started kindergarten in January. And I was used to school in Kenya.
So I expected to have a uniform and you know, strict rules and stuff, but there
wasn't any. And I Remember what I was writing on the first day that I went to
school with the blue suede tracksuit to like, you know, those those baby fat
tracksuits. It's like the velvet ones and stuff kind of. I was wearing that and I
went to school and I was introduced to my teacher, and she was so nice. Her name
was Miss Sininger. She was so sweet. She kept calling me sweetie and honey and you
know, the class was fun. Like it was not what I was used to at all. There was no
you know, ruler that was being threatened at me.There was no anything. Nobody was
yelling at me. Nobody was screaming at me. We had snack time and naptime and all
this stuff like the classroom was pink. And it was just so confusing to me. But the
interesting thing was that I didn't talk like the first, yeah, I didn't talk at all
in kindergarten. I did not a single word to anybody. My teacher asked me my name.
And I think I whispered it to her. And that was the only thing that I said from
January to May, and half of June basically, um, and so they put me in the ELL class
because they thought that I didn't know how to speak. I think they thought that I
just didn't know how to speak English. But English is my first language. Because
um, you know, I think a lot of people don't know about Kenya that everybody speaks
English in Kenya. Obviously, Swahili is the first language but English is second
and that's what they teach you in schools. And I didn't have an accent or anything.
I was just too scared to talk to anybody. Because I like people had already called
me so many names. Like they said, Oh my god, you're stinky Africa and bla bla bla
all this stuff. Because my teacher made the mistake of telling them that I was
Fresh Off the Boat.
She said she's hot off the press. I remember exactly what she said. She's hot off
the press
straight from Africa. And I was like, oh my goodness and all these like little
white kids were just like, what the hell is wrong with you? You don't know how to
speak any English. So I didn't speak um and then but I was still smart You know,
um, I didn't know that you weren't supposed to know how to read when you're five
years old and you know, do multiplication and stuff, but I'm so grateful because I
would have been held back in second grade. Definitely, if I had just come without
knowing how to read. Um, but yeah, and then first grade, I was still at the same
school. Um, I first grade is honestly a blur. I just remember. At the end of the
year, I got expelled from that school because of this huge fight on the bus because
of this misunderstanding between me and this other girl. I don't remember. I think
her name was like Aaliyah or something like that. We used to get off on the same
bus stop. And one day she just out of nowhere. It was May literally the last two
weeks of school and then she just turned around and looked at me. She goes hey you.
And I was like Oh are you talking to me and She's like, Yeah, but apparently she
was talking to the girl behind me. But she said, Yeah, you stole my boyfriend or
something like that? And mind you we are in first grade. And I don't know what a
boyfriend is. I don't know anything about that. She was like, Oh, you stole
Christian from me, blah, blah, blah. And I just remember telling her to shut up and
leave me alone. And then I forgot that she had a lot of older brothers and a lot of
older sisters. So I got beat up on the bus basically. I got my ass beat on that
bus. Yeah, and I just remember like, I was sitting on the aisle seat and there was
these kids getting on the bus and they would just punch me in the shoulder every
time they pass me. And it was just so weird. But like, I remember not being able to
defend myself or something. I don't know. I just remember going to school the next
day and the principal telling me not to come back. And all this stuff. It was just
so confusing to me. I should probably ask my mom about that honestly. Because it
doesn't make sense for me to be expelled because I was ...I was the victim. I mean,
at least that's how I remember it. But yeah, and then that summer, my mom
transferred me to a different school. I went to Hancock Hamline elementary school,
I think It's just called Hamlin elementary now, but I went there between, you know,
ages, not ages. grades. Second to fourth grade, so just two years, I think. But
that school I thankfully didn't have that many traumatic experiences there, you
know, just regular elementary trauma. But yeah, and I think just a lot of things,
school is the only thing that I can remember being different, um, because I didn't
really do much outside of school like as a as a five, six year old, I was not doing
anything else except going to school and going home. And my whole life was pretty
much the same, except now I just, I, my grandma lived with us. And my mom was at
work all the time. She worked at Marshall fields, which is now Macy's, she worked
at Rosedale mall, and she would be at work when I or she would put me on the bus to
go to school, but then she wouldn't be there when I got back. And so my grandmother
allowed me to watch disney channel and like all these like Comedy Central, and BBC
and all these things that I don't think I was supposed to be watching. But um,
yeah, my mom would get home and they would shut off the TV and be like Oh, she was
doing homework this whole time bla bla bla. And, yeah, I got to watch a lot of
movies that I wasn't supposed to be watching. But I remember that every Friday or
Saturday, me and my mom would go to the mall together. And we would watch a movie
together or we would just hang out and you know, eat and stuff. And I would
basically tell her about the week, and I was talking to her about it recently, she
just kind of remembered she was just talking about how she wished she was home more
during that time, because I wasn't really getting into anything bad. But I think
having her in my life in that moment probably would have been a positive
experience. Because I had nothing but free time. So I was getting into fights with
like the neighborhood kids and stuff and like having boyfriends at school at 10
years old or nine years old, which, you know, now that I think about it wasn't a
good thing, but being exposed to like public school and things like that. That's
kind of what you learn. And so um like, obviously, we're Muslim, so she used to
hate that. I think one time she found a letter in my backpack. That was from me to
my boyfriend, Henry.. Henry Cortez.
He was so cute I was honestly in love with him, but I was breaking up with him
because I like I told him like he said something about me. I honestly don't
remember. But I remembered that I had a I had a letter in my backpack, and I
crumpled it up because I was going to give it to him, but I didn't want her to find
it. And they said, Dear stupid Henry, I'm breaking up with you, because you're dumb
or something like that. And instead of being like, love Siham, I was like, hate
siham, at the end. And then my mom was like, What the hell is this? And I was like,
Oh, it's not bad. You see that I'm breaking up with him and she's like, you
shouldn't have had a boyfriend in the first place and all this stuff. So I think
that that kind of struck something in her because she ended up enrolling me in a
private school after that. She enrolled me in a private muslim school after that,
and that's where I spent like, a majority of my like preteen years, so it was from
fifth to eighth grade. So I feel like that's really big development years. So I
think people who were in that environment definitely developed differently than
people who went to public schools or, you know, even charter schools. Because I
wasn't exposed to any other religions accept Islam. So we had like my schedule, we
had Arabic class, we had Quran Class, we had Islamic Studies class, we had prayer
time. And like all of this stuff that was very Islam focused. So I didn't really
know anything else I didn't know about Christianity. I didn't know about any other
religions or lack of religions that existed. And so I feel like that really shaped
me into the person that I am today, because for a long time, I was sort of
sheltered but
at the same time, over sexualized because I wasn't able to talk to boys or anything
like that, even if it was like in a very innocent manner, because, honestly, at
that point I wasn't really thinking of boyfriends or anything. I was just trying to
be like a regular middle school kid just tryna have friends who weren't just girls.
And so I remember my teacher called me a whore. One day, just straight up, called
me a whore and I was in I was 17. I think I was 13 or 12 or 13. And because I had
asked this boy for a pencil, because he used to make us that boy, girl, boy girl,
so we wouldn't talk to each other. So we would talk to our friends. But I was very
social person. So I was like, hey, do you have a pencil because we're about to take
a test and all this stuff. And he was like, Siham leave the classroom right now.
And I was like, What are you? What did I do? And he was like, you're being a whore.
Like, at that point, I was like, Okay, I'll leave the class. But I told my mom that
he called me a whore and she was really upset. And I was like, Hey, I guess I was
acting
whorish. But, um, yeah, so that school definitely shaped my views of like how men
and women should interact. And the answer to that was we shouldn't interact. And
yeah, I think it was just really interesting. So it was a very Islam focus school.
All I learned about was like islam like my religion, and I was just surrounded by
people who were like me, and who looked like me, basically. So um, I, I don't know.
I mean, maybe to other people that could have really shaped their world views which
it did shape mine a little bit, but I wasn't opposed to having friends who weren't
Muslim or, you know, anything like that. So because I went to a public high school,
the only thing that was just different The only thing that shocked me was that like
guys and girls could hug each other. So I think I had like one friend who was a guy
and there's just because I was nice to him and stuff. And then one day, he was
like, he see him he hugged me and I just froze. Like, I was just like, What the
hell are you doing? You're not gonna touch me. Somebody's gonna come out and call
me a whore and all this stuff. And I was gonna be in so much trouble. But um, I
mean, it was it was fine. Obviously, I didn't get struck by lightning or anything,
but I definitely don't. I'm not as free with the opposite gender as some other
people might be. I have like boundaries, very strict boundaries that you know, that
I that I make people adhere to, just because of going just because I went to a
Muslim school. A Middle School, and I'm glad that I did. Because I was very easily
influenced. So I could be doing crack now honestly.
If went to a public Middle School, I don't know where I would be, I think jail.
Um, but yeah, so I think that definitely, my schooling definitely influenced who I
am today, my identity as a Muslim. It influenced it in the sense that it's not a
huge part of my identity, because for a long time, everybody shared that identity.
So it's not something that we talked about. It was just something that existed. We
were Muslim, we wore hijabs, we learned about Islam. That was just my life. That
was just my reality. And then when I went to public school, it was still my
reality, because I went to a predominantly Somali public school, like there was a
lot of Somali girls, a lot of Muslim girls, and it was just the same as you know,
what I was used to. But um, I just had friends that were like different races that
were different religions and ethnicities and stuff. So it still wasn't a huge part
of my identity. Because many people were familiar with it. I didn't have to explain
it to anybody. The only time I ever had to explain what I was wearing on my head
was probably second grade like elementary where somebody was like hey, is that a
towel on your head, like, do you shower with that? And it's actually so interesting
because literally, I was at work on Saturday, I worked at Target and this girl My
coworker asked me, She said, I don't want to be rude anything. I don't want to
offend you. But like, I just want to know. Why do you wear that? Like, when you go
home, do you still wear it? Like, do you take it off ever? Like, do you shower with
it and It was just coming from a good place, but like she's just dumb like, how are
you in 2019, you still don't know that, like, you have these questions you can ask
me? Well, you know, but um, I have to work with her. So I didn't want to be rude.
So I was just like, Oh, yeah, whatever. I don't wear it at home. She's like, so I
just have another follow up question. Do you wear this for your husband? I was
like, I'm not married Julie. like, Oh, well, it's just like, because your husband
is the only one who's allowed to see your hair. Right? I said, That's not true.
Like, well, that's what my mom told me
because her mom's half Arab. Like she's half Saudi Arabia.
Yeah. And I was like, well, that's cultural because her mom was taught that like
her husband is the only one who could see her hair or she's saving her beauty for
her husband, which I that's not the truth at all. I'm doing this for God. It's my
relationship with God and just to be modest and to be respectful to my religion,
because wearing a hijab religion makes me not do crazy things because I'm
representing my religion. Basically, I'm visibly Muslim. So I don't want to give
the wrong impression, which is something that I just have like in my head at all
times. I think every Muslim girl who, you know, people who are visibly Muslim, they
always have that in the back of their head like that I'm representing my religion
right now. So I shouldn't be doing anything crazy, but a lot of people don't. It's
a very interesting balance. But ya no, being Muslim was never like a huge part of
my identity just because everybody else was, and it's still not a huge part of my
identity. I like Muslim. I'm Muslim first, then I'm Somali. But um, I think being
Somali is like my number one identity. I think. It's my culture, my heritage, like
my people, my blood, all that stuff. I think that's like, even at the beginning of
this. I said, I'm a Somali Muslim woman so. Yeah. I'm out of breath.
Amran Ali 20:58
Awesome. Wow. Very powerful. Thank you so much for sharing that. Wow. So let's talk
family dynamics. Of course, you're a lot older than you were when you lived in
Kenya, the culture in the United States being like, probably completely different
than that of Kenya is so and you're also from a practicing Muslim household all
that. How would you say like, How have your experiences been navigating your, like
teenage years with everything in the United States, but also still adhering to what
your family expects?
Siham Isse 21:35
That's a great question.
So I don't think that being a teenager in America really impacted me as much just
because like I said, I was at a muslim school. So what my friends were doing was
what my mom told me that I should be doing anyway. So I there wasn't really any
clashes. It's not like oh, you know, I had white girlfriends who were going out
partying and you know, smoking and drinking and you know, having sex and all this
stuff, and I was just at home reading Quran and I really wanted to be out there
doing stuff with them. But it was before I went to a muslim school so everybody was
doing the same thing like, we like the most that we would go out we would go to the
mall and stuff like, like just halal activites, but I didn't feel like I was
missing out on anything. The only time I felt like I was missing out was when I
watched movies and stuff and like TV and it's like, oh, I'm 16 and I should be
dating and all this stuff. Like, that's never something that I like, that I feel
jealous or envious of. But definitely, I think I think like I said, if I was at a
public school, I would definitely feel like I would have a different personality. I
don't think I would be the same place that I am right now. Hopefully I would be but
you know, I'm just thankful for the experience that I had because I didn't feel
like I was missing out on anything because everybody was doing the same thing.
There was no clash between my school personality and my home personality. I wasn't
one of those people that went to school it took my job off and then put it back at
home which is a lot of people. You know, they struggled with that because they felt
like they didn't fit in because of their environment. But my environment was
wearing a hijab. If I didn't wear hijab to school, that is when I would be like the
like, what the hell is going on with this girl so weird. She's not wearing a hijab
at school. So I think definitely that played a huge part in you know, being me
being a teenager, I still had crushes and stuff, but I was super ashamed and I'm
like, Oh, they were something that you push down deep in your heart you don't tell
anybody about it. You don't even tell yourself that you have feelings for this
person. You're not supposed to like them otherwise you can be called a whore. But
everybody still had crushes and still whispered about them and still talked about
them but they were very shameful and even now I have trouble with coming to terms
with the fact that if I have feelings for somebody I'm never going to tell them.
I'm never going to act on them, just because I'm still afraid that I'm going to be
called a whore. But I remember distinctly this one boy that I did have a crush on
him, but nobody knew that at the time, but somebody just spread this rumor because
I was good friends with him. He's the one who actually asked for the pencil. I got
called a whore over him and then I developed feelings after because I was like Hey
if i'm being treated like whore might as well act like one.
I think um Yes. So anyway I asked him for a pencil bla bla bla
And we used to sit next to each other in my civics class, So I did develop a crush
on him because hes a sweet guy. He's so cute. You know, so nice, super funny, blah,
blah, blah. But I didn't tell anybody. Then one day it was Valentine's Day. I
didn't come to school because I was sick And then I came to school on February 15th
at like, 7:50 in the morning, I was going to the cafeteria and my friend came up to
me, she was
like, oh my god Siham. Is it true? Blah blah blah. I'm like what are you talking
about? What is true? And she goes
Oh, you put a lot. You put a note in Osmans locker that said, you were you were in
love with him and something like I was like, What the hell? I wasn't even at school
yesterday. Who's lying on my name? Blah Blah Blah.
And then she told me she said "Oh ibrahim said that", so I found ibrahim and I
was like, Hey, did you tell people that I have a crush on Osman and he was like,
um, what and like, he didn't even answer before I took my shoe off and I hit him
with it. I hit him straight across the face with my shoe in front of everybody in
the cafeteria and I didn't even make it to first period before I was sent home. I
was obviously suspended. I was suspended for two days. And then I came back to
school and I was like, Okay, so this is what happens if you have a crush on. You
beat people up and you get suspended so this is never something that you could ever
do again. So yeah, definitely I'm not open with my feelings, if they're romantic
towards somebody, and I think that's something that I'm gonna have to work on.
Because I don't think I'm going to be able to get married to somebody if I can't
admit my feelings to them.
probably be like, 10 years into marriage and be like I think I like you.
I think I have a crush on you. But yeah, no, definitely. My teen years were
Full of shame.
Amran Ali 25:36
Wow. So just being imaginative here. Say it were up to you. Would you have stayed
and continued your life in Kenya and seeing like your experiences here in the
United States versus out of Kenya? Would you have also chosen chosen to move out to
the United States and start a life here?
Siham Isse 25:56
Yeah, um, I definitely would have chosen to move out to United States, I am really
happy with my life here. My, my family came here because of the opportunity and,
you know, for the for the resources and opportunities, yes, for the opportunities.
Because in Kenya, like you have to pay for school you have to pay for health
insurance. And honestly, that's kind of where America is going to anyway. But
that's a different story. But ya no, any type of school there's no such thing as
public school or government housing or anything like that in Kenya, so you had to
have money in order to survive, which we didn't have any money. So um, I actually
went back to Kenya last summer and it was a wonderful experience. I loved it. I had
so much fun. It's so nice seeing, you know, where I grew up, where I went to
school, where I was born, I got to see the hospital that I was born in, but it's an
abortion clinics. And I'm pretty sure it was an abortion clinic when I was born.
But um, I asked my mom about it, she was like, hey, it doesn't matter where you
were born.
So, yeah, I still need to talk to her about that. But um, yeah, I think it was just
a great experience. But that's because I had money. And I was there on vacation and
I was there for fun. But I don't think that I could have a life there. I mean, I
could be happy with my life if that was the only thing that I know that I had
known. But what I know now, I don't think that I would have been happy, as happy as
I am here. Because my cousins, my younger cousins moved to Kenya and they're
miserable. But their mom just packed up and packed up and decided to move back to
Kenya. And but they moved back, they moved back to America a couple months ago,
because it was too expensive, especially with 10 Kids 10 kids, that you have to pay
for their schooling, you have to pay for their clothes, their food, their health
insurance, blah, blah, blah. So it's definitely not a viable living place, in my
opinion, if you were as low income as I was, and basically still am.
Amran Ali 27:44
Cool. Um, so now, you being a sophomore here at Augsburg. What are your plans for
the future?
Siham Isse 27:52
I hate that question so much. But um, I mean, my goal is hopefully is to get a PhD
in psychology. I'm a I'm a clinical psychology major right now. And yeah, I just
want to be a professor at a university. Because I love teaching and I love
connecting with people, but I couldn't do high school because it's stressful. And
you're basically not your own boss. You know, I feel like definitely faculty, they
have, you know, rules to adhere to as well. But it's more flexible, you have a more
open schedule, and you have you, you're the one who decides how much homework you
have to give. So you're giving out homework, but you're also having to grade it. So
if you don't give them homework, you don't have homework to grade. Um, but no, I
think I've had a lot of good experiences with my teachers, you know, they shaped me
in a lot of ways and having good relationships with them, inspired me to have like,
I had a really good relationship with my high school English teacher, and she told
me about all these scholarships, and she's the one who told me to apply to Augsburg
and, you know, she had a big, she a very large impact in my life, especially as a
first generation immigrant and also the oldest, I didn't have anybody to ask about
anything so huge. She was kind of my friend and that she was kind of my, like my
older sister, but like it was a very professional relationships. But I still talk
to her to this day, I love giving her life updates, because she's so proud of me
and I want to be that person. For other people, I want to be that person for
students, because people don't really realize how much power a teacher has. A
teacher has the power to discourage you from something and that'll just put your
life on a completely different path. But a teacher also has ability to nourish you
and to, you know, inspire you and and to push you and to motivate you to do great
things because teachers see potential in you that you don't see in yourself. And so
I definitely want to be that person for other people. Yeah. And so that's my goal
is I also want to go into counseling too, because I feel like mental illness in the
Somali community and muslim community is very stigmatized, and, you know, people
are really afraid to seek help. And I think it's just because they don't see people
like them in those fields. So um, a lot of people think therapy is for white
people. It's like a white People thing like only white people have time to go pay
somebody to listen to their problems, but a lot of people, especially being
immigrants, there's a lot of trauma that has to do with being an immigrant. And
there's a lot of like, an A lot of our elders have PTSD from the war and you know,
having to be ripped away from their homeland and their country, and you know, have
to move to a brand new place. So I think that if there was more Somali people in
the field, I think
that would be a really good thing.
Yeah, so I think those are my goals. And I just love psychology, it's so
interesting. And it has such a big purpose and like a meaning in terms of how
people can utilize it, and how it can help people and how it can basically help the
world because if you don't, if your mind is not right, you're gonna fuck somebody
else's life up. Like you're gonna mess somebody else's life up like your children,
like if you're not okay, your children are not going to be okay. And then their
children are not going to be okay. It's just going to be a vicious cycle. So, yeah.
Amran Ali 30:57
Yeah, definitely. Yeah.
I'd like to follow up since you do have a very like cut clear, concise goals and
you sound very motivated to reach these goals. But with with growing up here,
United States, would you say you've had barriers like facing discrimination due to
your identity being Somali Muslim and a woman? Would you say there were any times
where you've been discriminated against? Or belittled?
Siham Isse 31:28
Yes, of course.
Unfortunately, that's something that a lot of people have to deal with, especially
being like a triple minority, basically, like you're black, you're Muslim, and
you're a woman on top of that. So like, there's so much that you have to face. Um,
thankfully, I haven't had too many experiences. Just because I've had a really good
support system like my mom. My mom always knows when to get in the way of something
like if somebody is trying to belittle me, she will always check that my mom has
always empowered me from the beginning. So even though people have tried to make me
feel belittled, and inferior I've never felt that way. But I think a big time was
just when my teachers in high school so I ended up going to Roseville after going
to Fridley for one year and Roseville, Roseville area high school is a
predominantly white school there was only white teachers and staff and faculty and
all that stuff like the only people of color were the ones who are dealing with
discipline and sports, which honestly has a lot to say about the school district in
general. But all the all the counselors were white too. So they were the ones who
were telling you what classes to take and what you need to take in order to
succeed. But a lot of them had like very, you know, deep rooted subconscious
biases. So they would sort of steer black students and Muslim students in the wrong
direction and basically away from success. So I I have like school has always been
really easy for me. So my mom told me to take AP classes and things like that and
classes that would challenge me and you know, put my skills to the test basically.
But one of my counselors the first counselor that I had just told me straight up
not to take class because it's too hard for me, and that I wouldn't succeed in the
class. And I would only just make my GPA lower, even though I had a 4.0. And I was
already like, school was easy for me. So I was gonna succeed. And I knew that. And
so he told me he was like, yeah, just don't take it. It just doesn't make sense for
you, you're just going to fail, you won't be successful. So just save yourself the
trouble. And so he told a lot, a lot of Somali students that and a lot of them
weren't as fortunate as me to, you know, be confident in their abilities and they
didn't have parents to give them confidence in their abilities in their educational
abilities. So a lot of them just ended up taking not only just like regular
classes, he took like, remedial classes like like, what is it called? Like, is it a
remedial class like the pre class like, like, intermediate and advanced like, is it
remedial class? I think so. I don't know like the first level like the classes for
like basically, like slow kids and even Though, you know, they didn't have any
mental issues or anything like that, that that indicated that they needed to be in
those classes, they were just putting those classes because of what they look like
and who they were. And just the stereotypes that were associated with, you know,
that background. And so I immediately told my mom, she came to the school, talk to
the principal forced them to get me a different counselor, and also just like
forced investigation into that counselor, like, how dare you tell these kids that
they are not good enough for this stuff, you know? And so when I was I got into
those AP classes, obviously, and I succeeded in them got all A's, you know, I only
took one AP exam. So just because I have test anxiety
but I got a five on that exam. So
shout out to
Mr. Johnson. I'm better than you now. But no, I'm yeah. And so when I did get up, I
did end up in those AP classes. They were all white. Like I was, like nine out of
10 times I was only personal color, and like only black woman and only Muslim woman
in that class. So not only was I having to deal with being alone In the class, I
also had to defend myself and defend the fact that I deserve to be in that class.
And some of my teachers in high school were kind of already expected me to fail.
And so I like asking questions, and I like being very participant, I like
participating in my classes. And so I would stay after class and like, asked my my
AP language and composition professor, I used to ask him like, Hey, is anything I
can do to get my grades up? I don't understand this material, blah, blah, blah. And
he was like, Oh, well, of course, you don't understand that. And I was like, What
am I supposed to me? He's like, Well, you know, just because you like, you don't
really understand it. Because this is like material that you know, you don't
understand. I was like, why do you think I don't understand it? I don't understand
because you're a terrible teacher. And he's like, no well, you just don't
understand it because you weren't raised like this. And like, because we were
reading Grapes of Wrath, I think and that was the dumbest book I ever read in my
entire goddamn life. hated that book. It was about white farmers. Because I'm like,
How am I supposed to understand something that I don't relate to at all? I don't
know what they're talking about their struggle with the Great Depression I
wasn't in America. My family
has gone through a different depression, you know, so, things like that. Like I
just didn't understand. And instead of, you know, taking the time out to help me
understand, which was his job, he would just write me off, but I still succeeded in
that class, thankfully, but you know, other people weren't so lucky. And the
students who didn't succeed in that class, like they just reinforced something in
his brain that, you know, he was right about them. They're dumb. They don't deserve
to be an AP classes. So what's the point of even encouraging them to take up
classes and stuff? So? Yeah, it's just really hard. And like, not even just having
to defend my, the, not even having to defend my, you know, my intelligence. It was
just having to defend my people basically, like my teachers would say micro
aggressive things my classmates would be would have micro aggressions and all this
stuff and be like, Oh, so every time we talked about like Africa, they just look at
me, they'd be like, so tell us about your time in Africa. Like they didn't even
know I was born there. So I used to just lie and be like I was born in America,
what the hell are you talking about, like me and you are the same stop trying to
act like we're different, you know, and if I they will talk about like, oh, who in
here speaks a second language. And like, I wouldn't raise my hand. And my teacher
would be like really siham? You don't speak a second language? Like, I speak three
languages, but you don't need to know that because you're just going to use that
information to just reinforce something in your brain. And I remember one time my,
my psychology teacher said, who show of hands who in here has family that's in the
military or Navy or National Guard, and I raised my hand and she was so surprised
that somebody my family was in the Navy, my cousin Ghandi was in the Navy for like,
six years, he served his country, he did a great job, you know, like, shout out to
him, like, thank you for your service Ghandi. But she was so surprised that I had
somebody in my family willing to fight for this country, you know, because
obviously, she thinks that they're fighting for the other side, like, you know what
I mean? So um just having to defend so much of myself, like I was so angry in that
time, honestly, like, because it's tiring. It's exhausting having to defend your
humanity and your right to be in certain classes. And just basically, like, just
defending your right to be in that country is just exhausting. And I shouldn't be I
shouldn't have had to be 14 and 15 years old. Just having to fight all the time.
Just be angry and people wonder why there's like that angry black woman troupe like
we're just tired. We're so tired of having to defend ourselves and just fight all
the time. Like I am angry and I'm angry because you made me angry. I wasn't angry
initially like, whos fault is thisyou know, so it's definitely my education
like a big, big part of who I am.
Amran Ali 38:13
So, which brings me to this question if you got a chance to say a few words, or
give advice to younger Siham, What would you tell her?
Siham Isse 38:33
Um so I feel like I have this chance because I have a 10 year old sister who looks
exactly like me. She acts exactly like me. She is like, she's just my carbon copy.
So I'm always giving her advice. And I think one thing that I would say is
definitely just relax a little. I was always on edge all the time. In high school,
I was already I was always ready to just like fight somebody basically. And I would
probably just tell myself to just take it easy. Like if we were having class
discussion that somebody said something racist, I didn't always have to check them.
Like that was just so much pressure on me to just have to be listening at all times
be ready, I'd have to know so much about everything in order to defend myself.
Probably just take it easy, and just like don't rush like you don't need to be
stressed out about school. I think I overstressed myself again, because I had to
prove that I belonged there. So it always be going above and beyond having to get
straight A's perfect grades and everything. Just because I didn't want to reinforce
any negative stereotypes about my people. But I never really got to be a kid
because of that. I never really had got to enjoy my childhood. Because honestly,
black women, like we're just raised to be adults, like we were not children, like
we never get to be children. It's being born and then having to just become adults
become super mature, be able to take care of ourselves, take care of our families,
take care of our image, having to you know, be our own PR people all the time. Like
Okay, you can't say this or else people will think you're like this and this and
this and this, but I just wish I was a little kid because it doesn't matter if I
was being loud at a restaurant, like what's going to happen to me, you know? And
that's something that my mom needs to learn to, like, stop telling us to be quiet
when we're out. You know, like, if me and my cousins or my friends are being loud
and rowdy, that's okay. Because we're young. We're, we're kids, we're, it's okay
for us to be loud and to make noise and to take up space, basically. So yeah,
that's something that I definitely tell myself is to just just be okay with my
existence and not having to prove my existence all the time.
Amran Ali 40:32
Awesome, very, very insightful. So thank you for that. Well, I wish you the best in
all of your future endeavors. Again, thank you so much for your time today, Siham.
This concludes our interview.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Ollie Piotrowski
Okay,
0:00
I guess we can just start with your name and where you're born.
Safiya Balioglu 0:06
Okay, my name is Safiya Balioglu. My official name is Christine. I was born in
Germany. We're like in the southwest area of Germany Black Forest, close to the
Black Forest. So ... Show more
Ollie Piotrowski
Okay,
0:00
I guess we can just start with your name and where you're born.
Safiya Balioglu 0:06
Okay, my name is Safiya Balioglu. My official name is Christine. I was born in
Germany. We're like in the southwest area of Germany Black Forest, close to the
Black Forest. So I was born and raised there. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 0:28
Yeah, I looked up some articles that you were in.
Safiya Balioglu
Okay.
0:34
Ollie Piotrowski 0:34
Um, so I read a little bit about your story, but I read that you converted to Islam
when you were about 23, I think is what the article said.
Safiya Balioglu 0:43
Yes. Yeah that's right. In Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 0:47
What, what encouraged you to do so?
Safiya Balioglu 0:54
Do you want the long or the short version of this story
Ollie Piotrowski 0:56
The long story, I'm all for stories.
Safiya Balioglu 1:00
What encouraged me?
Well, I'll start a little bit before because I was when I was in high school. I had
this friend who was then my best friend, and we both attended a church group. Once
a week, where youth or young youth, teenagers got together, talked about a certain
subject they picked.And some Bible verses, sing songs together, pray together and
stuff. So I saw as part of that group, I don't remember how long but I guess it was
maybe two years or something like that. And even before that, when I was younger, I
was kind of looking for some guidance, maybe?I always believed in God. And I got
myself a Bible and I started reading the Bible. My family is not religious at all.
I have two siblings. I'm the oldest one and we grew up celebrating Christmas and
Easter, but just because that's what you do when you call yourself Christian. But I
was pretty much the only one who wanted to go to church wanted to have a connection
with God over the religion. So then when I found this youth group, I thought I
found, you know, my way in life kind of, but as I continued, going to those get
togethers or meetings or whatever you want to call that, I still felt like
something was missing. I, it didn't feel whole to me. Like maybe like, it felt like
a piece missing in a puzzle. Like it felt kind of like that. And I couldn't
pinpoint what exactly it was. I, I had some trouble understanding some theological
concepts in Christianity that I asked the group about and other people or even the
pastor who did like a class when I was in high school. But the answers were not
really to my satisfaction. So I kept struggling with that. And then I I met my, now
husband, in my last year of high school, which is great, which was great, 13 at the
time, we took the same biology course. And he's from Turkey. So he's a born Muslim.
And I started being curious about, you know, I started asking him about his
religion and stuff and the traditions and he tried to answer but not to as much
detail as I wanted to know. So then, after we finished high school, we went off to
college, in separate cities, and he was roommates with two other Turkish guys where
he studied and one of them was a really dedicated practicing outgoing Muslim. So I
got in a lot of into a lot of conversation. with him, because I figured, wow, this
guy knows a lot about his religion, I should ask him. So, and the answers I got
from him were really just answering everything that I had questions about. And he
also was able to answer, like, in a way that that I was able to understand who God
was who Jesus was in Islam, and it really made sense to me. And then he explained
about the five daily prayers and that really drew me in I really felt like that
attracted me the most. So I don't know how long it took a few months, maybe or I
don't really remember. But after many, many conversations with him and going back
to, to my husband and telling him about those conversations, I told both of them
that I really wanted to become Muslim, that I really felt that this makes sense to
me. And it answered all my questions. It kind of felt like I found that missing
puzzle piece. So it all came together. So that's when I decided to, to convert to
Islam. And there was when I was 23. I was I was in college at the time.
Ollie Piotrowski 6:42
That's really dope. Sorry.
So you went, so you lived in Germany? You were born in Germany. What was it like
living as a Muslim woman in Germany?
Safiya Balioglu 6:56
That's a very good question. So once I became Muslim. I started with the daily
prayers right away. And you have to cover up before the prayers. But I didn't yet
wear the hijab outside. So once I was Muslim, that roommate of my husband that I
had all these conversations with, introduced me to some Muslim women in the
community. And the first Muslim woman he introduced me to was a Tunisian student.
And I'm still in touch with her today. So I, I kind of took it upon myself to learn
how to pray. And you're supposed to, to say the words in Arabic. You could use your
own language, but I really wanted to learn the Arabic parts of it to make it more
authentic, I guess so used to go to her to kind of memorize short passages of the
Quran to be able to pray and all the other short pieces that you see during the
prayer. And at the time I was commuting back and forth to college. It was like a
half hour train ride. So I used to memorize all these parts when I was on the train
and then go back to her and she would correct my pronunciation and stuff and helped
me understand what it meant. So that's how I started out I thought that was the
most important part of the faith one of the pillars and yeah, so I wanted to be
able to do the prayer is correctly so I did that for about a year and kept talking
to that Muslim woman about the hijab too and about the role of Muslim woman and all
that and she always told me to take my time before I put on the hijab because she
thought she, yeah, she she told me it was a big responsibility and it will be a big
change for me for my family for you know, when I go out and stuff, so she always
told me to take my time. So it took me about a year and then I thought I was ready
and I started wearing the hijab in public too, needless to say, it was a big
change. Yeah. So my family, my, especially my parents, I talked to them about
converting to Islam and everything and my dad took it pretty well. He He told me if
you know if this was what I wanted to do and how I wanted to live my life that will
be okay with him. My mom had a hard time. Especially once I started wearing the
hijab she was worried she thought my husband would take me to some remote village
in Turkey and she would never see me again. You know, those like, stereotypical
thoughts that people have about Muslims and Islam and, and my parents never met a
Muslim. They've never heard much about Islam. They were not interested in religion.
So it was all very new to them. So she had those fears in the back of her mind.
When I went out in public, in Germany, I had some very interesting experiences,
people yelling at me, industry. Go back where you are. We came from, and I'm like,
I was born and raised here. I'm from here. Where do you want me to go? Exactly. So
I, yeah, so that happened to me quite often. Also people cutting in front of me
when I stood in line at a grocery store or any other store, people talking to me in
sign language, because they assumed I don't speak German. And I always figured out
what they wanted to tell me. So I spoke back to them in German in the dialect. They
spoke and they were like, shocked to hear me talk German. So yeah, it was
interesting, funny, sometimes annoying. Some of those encounters I thought were
very rude because I'm like, I would never dare to yell at a stranger whose story I
don't know whose life I don't know whose history I don't know. And tell them to go
back where they came from. So at one point, I mean, you kind of shelter yourself
from that when you go outside. I used to like, tell myself, okay, I don't, you
know, I don't care. They can say whatever they want. But then I started to go out
with my children. I have, we have five children. They're all born in Germany. And I
used to go out with them to take them to the playground and stuff and people would
like pass by and by me and shake their heads at me. I'm like, really, you have to
do that. You don't know me. You know, I didn't do anything to you. I'm just walking
here taking my kids out and you judge me just by my looks by what I'm wearing. So
my husband and I used to take the kids out with us to restaurants, but we stopped
doing that at one point because people were just staring and they were so annoying
and and I, I stopped going out to stores with like, more than one child. So it, it
does affect your life. It did affect my life in a certain way. Which I really
thought was sad because because because I'm German, you know, and these are your
own people that kind of act like that. Only because they see me wear something
different than them. Yeah, so I had those experiences in Germany mostly negative. I
had one positive experience. I remember when I was I was sitting on a bench
somewhere by a fountain on a summer day, I think. And the lady walked by and she
told me I admire your courage wearing your, what you're wearing and your
traditional clothing and even though it's hard and whatnot, and you know, and you
might you might get different responses to, to that, but she really kind of told me
that she admired my courage. That was really yeah, I thought that was super nice of
her to say, because that was about the only positive experience that I had living
in Germany since I became Muslim, so I became Muslim in 86. And we moved here to
the US in 98. So about 12 years yeah. from, like, a positive response from a non
Muslim from a German lady, you know, all other experience I had were pretty much
negative except for Turkish immigrants that assumed that I was a traditional ad. So
they started talking Turkish to me. They were lucky because I know Turkish to some
extent, and I can, you know, talk to somebody about some everyday subjects and
stuff. So yeah, but then they were shocked to know that I'm German, actually not
Turkish. So yeah, so that was kind of my experience in Germany.
Ollie Piotrowski 15:47
You mentioned that moving to the US, what was it that really prompted that move?
Safiya Balioglu 15:55
Yeah, we, we moved pretty much because of my husband's job. So he got a job offer,
along with, I think maybe 10 or other people through Siemens. I don't know if you
know that company they do like, I think at the time they focus more on like,
fridges, freezers, dishwashers, like you know those types of things. And I think
they do medical equipment as well. So it's a well known company in Germany. So he
got an offer. He was a software engineer at the time, and he got an offer to come
to the United States. Actually, he got offered three different locations. So one
was, was it it was a New Jersey. The other One was in Tennessee, and the third one
was here in Minneapolis. So, because we've never been to the US, he told them Oh, I
would like to visit all three locations and see which one we like best and, and
they and they said, okay, you can do that. And the first one we visited was
Minneapolis. So we came here in March of 1998. Spring was already like, it was
already spring in Germany. The flowers were starting to come out and was starting
to get green. We come here beginning of March, back to the dead of winter, and I'm
like, Oh my god, where where are we? What is this? I had no idea. So we we landed,
it was snowing, all gray. Everything was worried it was freezing cold. We get to
our hotel. We had our youngest one. With us who was about one and a half at the
time, and we had a stroller with us. While we figured out pretty quickly that it
was useless to have a stroller with your, because you can use it. Yeah. So we were
here for like, I think five days. My husband check out his workplace. And we stayed
in a hotel in Plymouth. And we try to like, figure out if there were any mosques or
any Islamic community, Muslim community here, any community centers, stuff like
that. And we went out shopping, we went to restaurants. The first actually the
first encounter I had with an amazing I was at the airport. It was the guy that
gave us our rental car. So we, we meet him greet him and he's super friendly greets
me ask us how we were doing and I'm like, wait a minute. This man is super
friendly. I was not used to that at all it like, kind of took me back and I'm like,
Okay. This is good. This is a good start. And at the same time, a colleague of my
husband also was there waiting for us. And his reaction when we saw me, was totally
different from the American guy. He was kind of whoops, didn't expect that you
could tell from his facial expression that he was a little surprised to see a woman
in a job in front of him. Guess he didn't know that. My husband had a wife who was
wearing the job. So this was very interesting to see that the two different
reactions. So during our five day with visit, we went to several stores our
restaurant, everybody was so kind and welcoming. They always gave us a high chair
for our son at the restaurant. We went to department stores, they were people
always asking us if we needed help, they were talking to our son. I mean, I was
like, What is going on here? Why is everybody so friendly? And I we talked my
husband and I in the evenings when we get back to the talent we are like, this is
so different from what we are used to And also at my husband's workplace, there was
a lot of diversity. A lot of people from different countries, different
nationalities, whereas in Germany at the German company, he was the only one that
was from a different country, country. Everybody else was German, there was no
diversity. So he always felt like I don't exactly how to put it, but he was the
only one that was different in the whole company. Yeah, so he felt more welcome
here as well at his workplace because he saw, wow, there are other Muslims. There
are, there are Asians there are Americans like there's so much diversity and he
felt like he fit in better. So on the third day or so, of our visit, It was Friday,
and my husband was looking for a place to go to Friday prayers. So we checked out
the phone books and stuff and we found the Islamic center of Minnesota here in
Fridley we got here and turns out this was an Islamic school on the weekdays and on
the weekends. It was Islamic center where they had weekend school, food shelf,
different community things going on. So then they gave my husband an address of a
mosque to go to for Friday prayers, because at the time they didn't have Friday
prayers at the school. Now they do. And I stayed at the school with my son, because
I thought wow, in Islamic school, I need to like see what this is and maybe meet
some people talk to some people So that's what we did. And I think that night, we
decided that we wanted to come here. We didn't need to go to the other two
locations they gave us we said, okay, this is this is our chance to have our kids
learn different language being used in an Islamic school, learning a new culture,
and for us to and it was supposed to be for three years. And we are like, we can do
that three years is not a too long of a time and we'll go back to Germany. And so
we got back home and talked to both our parents and told them about the experience.
And yeah, they encouraged us pretty much to go for it. And we're like, yeah, we'll
come back and well, it's been 21 years. Come back? Yeah, no.
Ollie Piotrowski 24:05
What was the school like?
Safiya Balioglu 24:08
The school at the time was way smaller than it is now. Now it has an expansion
slot. It's like 400 students. Now I think back then, I don't remember how many
students It was around 100? 120, maybe. The school runs from preschool all the way
through high school. But at the time, I think they had maybe two high schoolers or
something like that, whereas now they have a full class of high schoolers graduate
every year. I don't know it was, for me, it was really nice to see like, students
in an Islamic environment with Muslim teachers learning about Islam They had all
the regular subjects that they have in other schools. But on top of that, they had
Islamic studies where they learn about the religion pretty much they had Arabic.
And then they had Quran. memorization of Quran pretty much those three extra
subjects within the regular school day. And I met some teachers, they were all
really super friendly, excited, and we just loved it. At the time, back in Germany,
we were trying to open an Islamic preschool which took us I think, three years to
get through all the official channels. They really throws rocks into our way every
time we met with officials because they were afraid of you know, fundamentalism and
whatnot. Yeah, so it's very hard to do something like that in Germany. Whereas we
found out it's very, pretty easy to like, go and start a school here. You don't
face as much as much adversity as you do in Germany. So, yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 26:27
What did you when you first like, like, moved here? What did you do? Like did you
have a job? Did youSafiya Balioglu 26:35
Well my husband has his job so he was gone all day. Our oldest one starting in
third grade, the second oldest in second grade, and then one in kindergarten and
one in preschool and the youngest one stayed with me at home. He turned to the year
we moved here. So four kids were in school. When I was at home, I was home alone
with a little one. I didn't have a Work Permit so I couldn't work. I didn't work in
Germany either. I was I stayed at home with the kids because I thought that was
important. So first, the first months were pretty hard. Yeah, the kids were all
crying. When we took them to school in the morning, they only knew some basic
English. They didn't have any friends. Everything was new to them. And this was
like two days after we got here. school started. We got here I think August 30.
school started right after labor day. So like 10 days later or something. I thought
it was pretty It was tough.
Ollie Piotrowski 27:46
That's just being thrown in the deep end.
Safiya Balioglu 27:47
Yes. Yeah, it was. It was hard and I questioned our decision like pretty much every
night. Because seeing the kids cry and you have to leave them there. Knowing they
cry and yeah, and I was here home alone with a little one. I we have, we lived in
an apartment back in Germany, pretty much in the middle. Like in the city center. I
had a very good German neighbor that I used to meet pretty much every day. We would
walk together to preschool drop off the kids and pick them up again in the
afternoon. So I come here, sit in a big house the neighborhood is super quiet. You
don't see anybody all day except for the mailman. And on trash days you see the
garbage trucks drive by and that that's about it. I mean, people leave in the
morning for their for work and come back in the afternoon. So it's super quiet. It
was very, very unusual for me. Yeah. All I could do was take maybe walks or Take
the little one out to the playground or to the park or to the backyard. So it's
pretty boring in the beginning. I didn't have a car either. It took like, I don't
know, two or three weeks until I had a car. So I was pretty much stuck at home. But
through the school, I met some Muslim women that live in a neighborhood. And one of
them was a stay at home mom tool. She's from Morocco. So she used to take me out to
the grocery store or department store if I needed to get anything. So yeah, so
maybe once or twice a week, we did that. And after like a couple of months, maybe
our kids started getting more comfortable. They started picking up the language.
They started making friends in school. So it got it started to get a little bit
easier. Which made us as parents more comfortable today. My husband also started to
feel more comfortable at work and it takes time to pick up the language and, you
know, so then once I had a car things were easier because I could go out by myself
and but I still had to get used to, you know, finding my way around. But yeah, that
made things much easier than I was a little bit more flexible and I could go out I
felt like I could go places. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 30:46
I've had a lot of people who moved to Minnesota, even just for a little bit told me
that it was really hard for them to find like friends in the community at first, or
even later on, because while everyone here is very nice they're also very closed
off. Did you have any experience with that?
Safiya Balioglu 31:06
I remember when, before we moved here that some friends of ours would tell us "Oh,
yeah, you know, Americans are very friendly. But it's not easy to make friends with
them." When I, when I came here, I very much appreciated the friendliness and the
kindness of people in the stores and everywhere restaurants, stores anywhere you
go, I mean, really, I I, I don't want to be friends with the with the cashier at
Target, or the server at a restaurant. You know, I just want them to be friendly to
me. And, and that was it. I think being part of the Muslim community made it easier
to make friends because you're already part of the community and the school really,
the school was the place where I made friends first. Yeah. I don't know how it
would have been had I not been Muslim? And would I just have come here to work or
for anything else. I mean, I can imagine that it's harder to make friends than but
being part of the Muslim community really made it easier. You know, I didn't feel
like I felt left out. And also our neighbors. Our next door neighbors. Were
American about the age of my parents. We have two adult daughters and they have
grandchildren. They really welcomed us with open arms here. I mean, I really didn't
know what to expect coming to America. I didn't know anything about Minnesota. I
have never met an American I didn't know how they would feel about having a Muslim
neighbor. From my experience in Germany, I was like, I was kind of cautious. Yeah,
maybe even reluctant to, like go to the neighbors and because I didn't know what to
expect. So when we arrived here from the airport, I think the same day, our
neighbor came over and brought us a plate of cookies to welcome us. I thought that
was like, the nicest thing in the world, I would have never expected something like
that. I mean, that was so sweet. And from that day on, we had a great relationship
with our neighbors. We still do. I mean, we go out for lunches or dinners together.
When I bake something, I bring it over. She does the same thing which when she
bakes we need we both knit so I take her to a meeting room. I mean, it Really, it
really has been amazing that there was really one other thing that made our stay
here. Much easier than I thought it would be. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 34:12
I'm just happy. I'm just glad to hear this.
Safiya Balioglu 34:14
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 34:18
So you've done some work with the IRG? Yes. When did you start getting involved
with them?
Safiya Balioglu 34:25
Let me think. When I, when I first came here, and my kids were in Islamic school,
and I visited the school a couple of times, I noticed that the teachers needed help
there. So I started helping out in the Islamic school first when we came here, so I
kind of volunteer there. And that went on for about seven years. I mean, teachers
needed help correcting homework or research study or whatever else they could take,
so I did that. And then I learned about IRG from one of the parents in the school
who was one of the founders of IRG. And he approached me and said, you know, would
you consider becoming a speaker? We need more speakers and we have so many
presentation requests. It was founded in 2001. Right before 9/11. And after that
9/11 to present the request just poured in. But he approached me much later, don't
exactly remember when. So, I think when did I become a speaker? Maybe in 2006. I
think must I think somewhere around that time I became a speaker. So first when you
become they have a certain process that you go to become a speaker. So you have to
take a training and then you have to shadow speakers to see how yeah, how it goes
how things go and once you feel comfortable, you can present yourself by yourself.
So I started doing that really like that really like going out into the schools and
presenting and took on a lot of presentations. Felt like it was really motivating
to do so it felt like you were able to give back to the community that welcomes
you, you know in the first place. So and then in 2007 Seven or eight. They asked me
if I could become the administrator of IRG, which means I would take care of all
the requests that come in, find speakers for all the speaking engagements and do
all the administration stuff for the organization. So I did. So I took on that job
and did that was able to do this on the computer from home, which was perfect with
the kids and stuff. So I did that for about. I did that for eight years. I was the
administrator of it for eight years. And I was also a board member for I don't know
how many years and the organization grew bigger, the presentation of requests got
more and more and we expanded way more into different areas. So we needed more
speakers. We needed more staff members. It was a lot for one single person, but I
really enjoyed working for them. It was very, very satisfying work, really, I mean,
I did a lot of school presentations and a lot of presentations at community centers
with my husband together. And people who came to those presentations were so
interested. They wanted to know more about Islam and Muslims. they appreciated the
work we do. And it's this is still the case. But then my oldest son got married.
Then my oldest daughter got married, and then grandchildren are on the way. So I
cut down my work, because I started babysitting grandchildren. My daughter in law
started working part time, work, worked part time. And I figured this is I can't do
my job justice. And I am very German in this regard. I only take on a job if I know
I can do it. 100% I don't like to do something. Yeah, only halfway. So I told them,
Look, I'm I've done this for eight years, and I think it's time for me to move on.
I am in in a different place in my life now where I have grandchildren. I really
want to take care of the grandchildren and have a relationship with them. I can
only do that if I don't work anymore. So I I quit my job as admin, as
administrator, I'm still a speaker. And I still love to help out wherever I can.
But I really wanted to focus on family more than at that point. So I think that was
2015. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 40:26
What was it? Like? What was the? what was a? What am I trying to say? What was it?
What was the? How are your children in Germany versus how are they in? Like that's
not how I want to phrase this. Sorry, I'm having trouble articulating myself Um,
did the environment in Minnesota help your kids like being surrounded by people
with their own religion? Did it help them more than it? Then you think it would
have if they had been?
Safiya Balioglu 41:01
Hmm. Yeah, that's interesting question. They were very young. I mean, they were
still young when we came here. And we had them in a regular preschool in Germany
and in a public school, right around right on the other side of the block of our
blog where we live. We discuss this a lot with my husband because my husband came
to Germany when he was 11 years old from Turkey. Went to a public school. There
were no Islamic schools. And he had a hard time, reconciliating between the
environment he experienced in the school and the environment he experienced at
home. His parents were born and raised in Turkey. The kept the Turkish culture
alive while they were in Germany, they were only surrounded by Turkish, other
Turkish families. They both worked and worked with Germans, but their social life
only revolved around the Turkish community. And my husband always told me that he
felt like he was between two worlds. And it was hard for him to explain to his
parents things that were going on in the school and with his friends because they
were raised in a totally different way they didn't. They didn't really understand
so Going on field trips are going, you know, doing stuff with his class and
classmates. He had a hard time to to make his parents understand that. And he
always felt like he was he always said he was sitting between two chairs. And he
always told me he didn't want that for our children. Yeah. Because he, it was very
hard for him at that age. You know, to go through something like that. So we were
always thinking, what do we do in Germany? Which, which school? Do we want to put
our children in and we had considered Walter Waldorf school. Very similar to
Montessori concept and yeah and this was actually what motivated us to start to, to
see if we can even like establish a preschool in Germany. So this is where that
came from. So then once we we were offered to come here and we found the Islamic
school. That was like the perfect solution for us because we figured, while they're
all there in an Islamic environment all day they're surrounded by other Muslim
children. They don't feel left out. They don't have to tell them Oh, I don't, I can
eat this or I can you know, it doesn't feel as restricted as it felt when they were
in Germany. Although the kid the preschool was very open. Mind we never had any
issues. And they even had me come in to present about Ramadan and the importance of
Ramadan and you know, so they were open very open in that regard. But it was, I
think it was smoother for them to be in an Islamic environment because they didn't
feel like they have this big difference between school and home. Like what we teach
them at home was pretty much in alignment with what they taught in school. And I
think it was, it's important, especially during those early years when they grow
up, to establish their identity as Muslims to really develop a strong identity of
being a Muslim and what it means to be Muslim. So that once they go out, when they
go to college or you know, whatever, that there are equipped well enough to take
that on and to not be in the situation that my husband was in that he really
didn't, didn't know what to do and he was thrown back and forth between school and
what they taught him at home. Yeah.
Ollie Piotrowski 46:24
So how how have things been recently in regards to your identity and things like
that, with everything that's been going on?
Safiya Balioglu 46:43
From I mean, speaking from my experience and my family's experience, I think we
never really even had we never really had negative experiences here. Even my
children They, we have two sons and three daughters. And all three were the
hitcher. And all three, all five actually went to the U of M. And I asked them,
especially the girls, if they had had any issues with each other on campus or, you
know, people talking to them or yelling, or any kind of negative experience, and
they said, No, they never did so. And we never did as a family really, I mean, it's
been Minnesota has been good for us so far. I know that people in the Muslim
community, especially women have had other experiences negative experience to the
extent that I to the extent of my experience back in Germany, where people would
try to rip off the hijabs or things like that or You know, yell at them or be rude
to them. But I do think that Minnesota is still a place where you can be Muslim
without being afraid of going outside with your hijab. Yeah, I think people are
still open minded. They're Minnesotans are very educated people. They're open
minded. They're kind friendly. They want to know more about Muslims in general. I
think a very small minority of Minnesotans maybe not that way, but really in
general, I, I feel like that has been our experience and I hope it stays this way
with everything going on. I also do. Yeah. But overall, I really have had, we
really have had it positive experience over the 21 years we've been here and I'm
really grateful. Very grateful for that.
Ollie Piotrowski 49:09
Thank you for doing this.
Safiya Balioglu
49:10
Yeah, you're very welcome. I'm yeah, I think I thank you for doing it.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Sabrin Gadow
Fri, 04/26 03:35PM
32:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
laughing, muslim, queer, people, identities, feel, campus, somali, augsburg, community, nice, islam,
events, culturally, indistinguishable, mom, guess, friends, msa, person
SPEAKERS
Sabrin Gadow, Brendan Descamps
Brendan Descamps ... Show more
Sabrin Gadow
Fri, 04/26 03:35PM
32:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
laughing, muslim, queer, people, identities, feel, campus, somali, augsburg, community, nice, islam,
events, culturally, indistinguishable, mom, guess, friends, msa, person
SPEAKERS
Sabrin Gadow, Brendan Descamps
Brendan Descamps 00:01
Okay, hello.
S
Sabrin Gadow 00:02
Hello, hello.
Brendan Descamps 00:02
So first I'd like to say thank you for being here
S
Sabrin Gadow 00:04
Of course.
Brendan Descamps 00:06
So if you would like to introduce yourself and get started that way.
Sabrin Gadow 00:10
Sabrin Gadow
Page 1 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sabrin Gadow 00:10
Yeah! Okay - My name is Sabrin Gadow. My major is - I'm double majoring in history and
Poly-Sci with pre-law concentration. My pronouns are they/them My gender is non
existent. My ethnicity is Somali and "my other important identities to you:" Um - Black and
tall.
Brendan Descamps 00:28
Tall, alright. that's true you are tall.
S
Sabrin Gadow 00:30
I have to rep the game so - [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 00:32
Okay - [Laughing] Okay, so the first question I'd like to dive into if you want to start here
would be: "what connections Do you have - personally, to Islam?"
S
Sabrin Gadow 00:45
Yeah so I was raised Muslim. My entire family is Muslim. Um - even now most of my
family's still Muslim. Um - yeah, Islam is beautiful, beautiful religion. I love the - Being
culturally-raised culture Muslim was a lot different than being like - religiously-raised
Muslim. Since I like being like - because my family was like actively practicing it, but it was
more of a cultural thing for us. It was like being in that kind of environment was really nice
- and having that kind of connection to people based on like, a sharing of identities was
really nice. Yeah, ten-out-of-ten.
Brendan Descamps 01:16
Okay - Um - I guess. I want to ask a follow up question. How have your various identities
affected your relationship with Islam? And then I guess to add on to what you said about
culturally versus religiously? Um - like, I guess how does that tie into that?
S
Sabrin Gadow 01:34
Um, yeah, so I - [laughing] I think it's funny because like - how do my various identities
Sabrin Gadow
Page 2 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
affect my relationship with Islam. [laughing] I'm not Muslim anymore. So - thats one.
[laughing] Yeah, I guess just being like a kid recognize that like - uh - I was queer and
realizing the - blatant homophobia. In the queer co - uh - not queer - in the uh - Muslim
community. Especially my family, my mom the way she would just speak was just really
vulgar. It made me feel like, like I was wrong or shameful. Or I wasn't like, actually being
who I was. So that was really hard for me to like - am I - it's like to actually want to go
down this road and actually be who I am? Like - live my truth but like - also inject my
family, my - like my own identity, so you know - my ideas, my - ideologies. So that was a
big thing. Um - But I guess with being non-binary, that came out later on. So I was like,
whatever, felt like - we been knew - um - yeah I guess it was just hard because it's like,
when I was a kid trying to find out who was, it was hard to distinguish how I was raised and
who I wanted to be. But I feel like culturally vs. religious - religious Muslims are like,
religiously, like when you're actually religious and you actually participate. And culturally
is more about like, a culture around it. It's like that you can still be cultural - raisedculturally Muslim, and still be a religious Muslim, like, cultural describes, like the culture
around it, instead of like, the actual belief and faith. So like, people who are raised like in
the Middle East, they're, like, a lot of them are more culturally Muslim because they're
raised, around that kind of thing, they understand a lot of concepts, or they'll be in certain
ways because they're raised around that, or just - that's the way I view it - it might not be one-hundred percent accurate. So I apologize, that's just how I view it. I just say culturally
Muslim, because I wasn't raised as, like a really strict Muslim. I was raised more with ideas
and beliefs and like the culture around it, so like, I that's how I view myself. But later on, My
mom was like, "Let's be Muslim!", and I was like, "let's not..." [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 03:12
Okay, and you're - so you chose not to be religiously Muslim?
S
Sabrin Gadow 03:18
Um -
Brendan Descamps 03:20
Or is that just kind of like something that came about?
S
Sabrin Gadow 03:22
Technically, I mean it just came about because, uh, my mom didn't get like really religious
Sabrin Gadow
Page 3 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
until like - like when we were kids she like made us go like Sunday/Saturday School, which
is like, how like you learn about Islam and stuff like that, like a couple times, but then
moving and like, they're really expensive. So it wasn't like a every kinda day kinda thing,
and then around like eighth grade, she wanted us to be super religious, but I was just like,
'bro it's too late now." [laughing] I was like, "I'm 13 years old. You messed up." So after that,
it was just kind of like, Yeah, and I mean, like, I still wore the headscarf. I was still like, I
dressed modestly. I still was like presenting very Muslim, but I wasn't like - wrong with it.
But I think like after I left high school then I was actually like - I'm not this anymore. So
when I left my mom's house it was more about being like, "ugh, finally." Woah it's hot in
here.
Brendan Descamps 04:07
After you left high school, so after your senior year?
S
Sabrin Gadow 04:09
When I started Summer Bridge
Brendan Descamps 04:10
Like, two years ago now?
S
Sabrin Gadow 04:13
Mhm.
Brendan Descamps 04:15
Um - I guess, question. Um - if we can go back a little bit. If you're comfortable answering
um - a follow up question. You said that things that your mother or, uh, family would say
made you uncomfortable growing up queer. Did your family like, know about your queer
identities?
S
Sabrin Gadow 04:35
Um - So - Tea. Uh, not really. So I was raised - So, my dad died when I was a kid. So it was
an all-woman household so like we - my mom didn't really care about - if I was like more,
Sabrin Gadow
Page 4 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I'm saying this with air quotes "masculine," because like, there was really no father-figure
in the house so like, without my dad so it was like, we all took different on roles. So like,
from the household to my dad's like, if I did more things that were considered air quotes "masculine" um - that was okay. It's like, that was okay. With being queer - I - we never
really talked about it. Like we never talked about like, liking people. Um, when were kids it
was all like, "save yourself until marriage." We were just like, "Bet." So it was never, like kinda that thing. Um - I think even if she had like an idea of it, she'd like, repress the fuck
out of it. Because that in itself is like -no. Yeah, but no. Two secret realities.
Brendan Descamps 05:20
Interesting. Okay. Um - And I'm, I am curious now, because you brought up this binary of
like, culturally and religiously. I'm wondering if, um like that, like belief, or like, yeah, like
that belief um - would have came out of like, your mother's like, or your family's like
cultural sense, or like, their religious background? If that makes sense.
S
Sabrin Gadow 05:46
Hmm, tea. Um - So, I guess, like - um - In itself, technically, religously - because it does say
that like, homosexuality is wrong, which is uh - one thing, but culturally, my entire mom's
side - are just blatant homophobes. Like, she's always around, that kind of - kind of like
ideas. Stuff like, that's like culturally. That could be the thing - but it's more about family.
Brendan Descamps 06:05
Yeah.
S
Sabrin Gadow 06:15
Back in Somalia there were - there was like, instances of homophobia, I think. I'm not
really positive on that. But I'm not sure. I guess. I think honestly, it has to like culture and
like that sort of thing. That's their beliefs and that they were just on that shit. Sorry if I'm
not like - too knowledgeable.
Brendan Descamps 06:33
No, no, that's totally fine. Thank you. Okay. So I guess I'd like to move on and ask you just
your experience then, like, more generally, this is um - This question I feel like already is
going to like reiterate some of the things you've already spoken to. But I guess just
Sabrin Gadow
Page 5 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
generally, what was your experience as a queer person when you also identified as
Muslim?
S
Sabrin Gadow 06:58
Whew. I feel like to explain that I'd actually share my coming out story, which is so
horrible. So -
Brendan Descamps 07:06
Just - preface: you don't necessarily have to share that -
S
Sabrin Gadow 07:08
Oh, it makes sense. No, no, I - it's like - um - so - [sighs] Um, so like when I - I moved to
Hopkins when I was in - before I started my Junior year, and I was like, "new school - I want
to be who I am as a person," this like - me like - I was like - Like a year into like coming-out
actually being out with my friends. My sisters knew, but my mom obviously didn't. but like
- people close to me knew and I was like - I'm more comfortable with it. I was like, "you
know what, bet." I want to be who I am. This; That; and the Third. No one was going to tell
me shit. Right? I was great. [laughing] It was cool for a bit. I hung out with the - obviously, I
went to a new school and hung out with all the Somalis and Muslims just like - another
asset because obviously it's a familiar space. I was drawn towards like people I know. So
Somalis like the first choice. Um - it was cool for a bit. They ended up being very, very
interesting people. I ended up getting outed because one of them was like, because we
were - trying to become a presence, we tried to be - we tried to start the MSA up again the plan for the position at Hopkins was to be co-presidents so we could start like a
prayer um - room and have like - all Muslim kids could get passes so we could actually
pray during school without having to like - miss our prayers because we're in classes or
because of the times class changes. We were like, yo let us like leave class - leave lunch
and go to areas we can actually go pray. So that we're not having students in class
neglect our religion, which is a great concept. Like - she was on her parents about it. She
was like, "yeah, it's so dope and like, you know Sabrin? Like - they're like - they're gay. And
I was just like, "why would you say that?" No! Sorry, her sister outed me because her sister
was mad that I was hanging out with her sister because she was homophobic. And then
her parents like, "you can't hang out with this - that person and the third and it was like
weird. It was a weird situation for a bit. Um - It was shitty because I was so scared that my
mom was going to find out. So it was like a weird experience. So with like the experience
of being queer and a person that's Muslim? I actually learned how to keep my mouth shut.
Sabrin Gadow
Page 6 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
"Periodt." But I don't know - I guess just, instead of being super trusting I guess I learned
that just like, at the end of the day people seem cool - until they're not. So that's my
experience being queer and Muslim.
Brendan Descamps 09:02
Thank you. Okay. When did you move to Hopkins?
S
Sabrin Gadow 09:07
Um - Junior year of high school. It was cool though. Very white. [both laughing] I mean I'm
here!
Brendan Descamps 09:21
Okay, so you said earlier that you um - you left the faith. And that was a personal choice
to leave?
S
Sabrin Gadow 09:30
Yeah, I never really felt like I never - I didn't grow up super religious. So I never really felt
that like - Connection in the first place. So like it wasn't like super hard for me to leave. I
felt more constricted because I never liked believed - like I didn't have that strong belief so
I felt like I was doing it more out of comfort and habit rather than like actually being a
believer. So I felt - I was not really being - an authentic I was like, not really, like I was [indistinguishable] I was - but also like, I didn't think like what people who are actually
Muslims. Since like I'm not actually believing it. Why am I wearing a headscarf? Why am I
like - dressing modestly. I'm not labeling me. Yeah, you know, so like, I made the choice to
like - do "once upon a time" - took my headscarf off and starting taking care of my hair.
Obviously you can see - we're back with it. [laughing] Yeah, it was more - It was definitely
a personal choice. It wasn't because of anything, I guess. It was more about, like, me being
like, I wanna live my truth and not feel like I have to stay if it makes me uncomfortable comfortable
Brendan Descamps 10:20
Okay - Yeah. That's powerful. With that, with all that being said, Do you - have you since
then, the past two years, found any like belonging in faith - like other faith traditions or
spiritual practices, since you had that experience with Islam?
Sabrin Gadow
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sabrin Gadow 10:38
Religion itself just makes me scared now. I've been burned before so we're done with it?
[laughing] No, not really. I've never really been this religious. I kind of want to like - I feel
when I older and more - like 100% like, my identity, who I am as person, maybe I can go
back and reflect. But now - right now I'm just like this whole transitional page - transitional
page, I'm in my life, where it's like college, like, where I'm going like, graduating like two
years. So I have other things on my plate right now. From like, like, I don't have the time to
think what I want to eat. Let alone religion. So, yeah.
Brendan Descamps 11:11
Okay. And you mentioned when you're older, maybe you'll look back and reflect and like,
take some time to, um - think about religion or spiritual practices. So have you heard or
what do you think of the queer - like queer folks right now who are making space for
themselves in Islam, in the movements like associated with those folks?
S
Sabrin Gadow 11:33
I hundred perc - I 100% stan. That is amazing. I love it so much. I think it's, it's amazing. I
think it's really, um - I think it's really powerful. And it's really great just because it's
dangerous to them because a lot of people in the community just specifically Somali
people have the tendencies to be homophobic. And not only homophobic but there like,
they like act out in violent ways so like literally attacked and harmed. So it's, I don't know
about some but like - my experiences, like it's, so I'm like, I'm nervous for that. But gather
doing something like that, that's really important and creating spaces because people
have this whole like idea where it's like, you're either queer or you're Muslim, and it's like,
no, I can be both. Just because I choose not to be doesn't have to be and it's great. Like, I
am Muslim, I believe in my faith but I also who I am as a person, I can't change that God
made me this way and it's like period. God made you who you are - periodt. You know?
and it's like create space for that where you feel comfortable with your identity, and who
you are as a person and your religion, [indistinguishable].
Brendan Descamps 12:26
Thank you, that's no - I like that. So in that case, would you ever consider restoring or
reinvigorating your faith in Islam through an inclusive Islam movement? Maybe when
you're older looking back since that's when you stated you would be interested in doing
Sabrin Gadow
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
like - that?
S
Sabrin Gadow 12:41
I mean honestly, I'd be down. I think it'd be really, really cool. Yeah, it would be great.
Especially just to meet like, really cool - people. People are Muslim cool and they're just
really down like that be great. 10/10.
Brendan Descamps 12:55
Som starting to shift the conversation towards community at Augsburg and colleges
abroad. Do you feel a sense of community when you with your Muslim peers? You still
have that like Muslim connection?
S
Sabrin Gadow 13:13
I'm trying to think - sorry. I was like, I'm trying to think, but I actually have Muslim friends, I
do. It's actually funny - Last semester, I didn't. [laughing] So, like I don't have Muslim
friends, but it's like, oh yeah! I do. It's - I don't know, it's like, I think I question people,
because we each have shared identities like, but I think that isn't the reason I was like
drawn to them. Like it wasn't the reason why we were friends. I think that like it's a lucky
coincidence like, you're cool, and you're Somali and you're Muslim so like, bet, you know? I
do feel a sense of community with them, because at the end of the day like they're really
cool people. If they share a lot of identities with me whether it's like, them being Somali,
you know, or some - or queer. So it's like, it's really nice to like, know that. There are
people who are out there - they're like me or who are like - are like me, um off this
campus. Yeah.
Brendan Descamps 13:57
Okay. I guess in that case to like, do you experience any um - do you experience any, like
prejudice on campus from Muslim peers?
S
Sabrin Gadow 14:08
Oooh, um -
Sabrin Gadow
Page 9 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Brendan Descamps 14:09
or discrimination against?
S
Sabrin Gadow 14:10
Not really. I don't really know a lot of Muslims, not going to lie. But most of them are really
cool. I've actually never really experienced that kind of thing. I feel like Augsburg's campus
- Is like - is different. Because like - it's Augsburg so you really can't be acting up [laughing]
But no honestly, they're really cool and if I ever did have a problem - They would have to
say to my face, so.
Brendan Descamps 14:28
Okay. I think we alre- we definitely already covered this, about "is being Muslim connected
in anyway to your ethnic identity?" Um - we kind of already covered how it is deeply tied
to Somali culture -
S
Sabrin Gadow 14:41
Ooh. One of the same. [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 14:46
Let's see - Oh okay, so since we already kind of explored that, how have you experienced
Somali culture? In your case? Have you experienced Somali culture - without Islam being
part of that?
S
Sabrin Gadow 15:02
So my culture is all about jokes. So its like [laughing] In my opinion, um - it's- I don't know
it's like we just make a lot of jokes about like the shared identities, I'll ask people who I
knew as a kid, we'd be like, what was your worst ass-beating? I'd be like, one time my
mom came at me with like "this," or "this," or "that." And they'd be like, "Oh, that's it?" It's
just like, we're just finding things. Um - we all suffered so violently [laughing] at the hands
of everybody. Just funny moments or like - Most people have the - the connection with
like being like translators for your parents, because like your parents - like, uh, my mom
came over here to bring us here. So it's like, we're always like, speak for her helping her
out. People have that shared kind of experience. Just, it's not all about like, sometimes it's
Sabrin Gadow
Page 10 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
more like we go through as an immigrant, or what you go through as a person color, being
black, rather than like - and Somali. Especially being Somali in Minnesota, where it's uh or Minneapolis. Or Minnesota specifically, where it's like, we're so big, but they like everybody really hates us. So it's like, so we're always like, people just sat there and trust it,
and it's like, Yeah - and why do they do this to us? and it's like - I don't know, but I guess it's
more about like, the shared traits and common things that happened.
Brendan Descamps 16:06
Yeah. Okay. Thank you. Yeah, there's a lot more to it than just the religion aspect. Sure.
Okay. Alright. So now, I'd like to definitely shift into, like campus experiences explicitly. Um
- Do you have any connections to the Muslim Student Association or MSA?
S
Sabrin Gadow 16:28
Not really. I'm not gonna lie, first year, I was really like, "Oh my God. College, yeah!" So I
made some empty promises where I was like, "Yeah of course, I'll attend a meeting." Never
went. [laughing] Never went. It's just so horrible. Like, I should go. But, I'm not going to
because like I - I mean I should go as a supporter and like be there to like, support my
Somalis. But, um - it's probably not going to happen. But no, not really. They seem- they
seem really cool, though. They seem really dope. Um - but a lot of others said they were
always - are really nice and cool. So, and they always have like food there. So if I ever get
hungry might have to stop by and say hello. [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 17:03
In that case, you're not a member - necessarily.
S
Sabrin Gadow 17:05
I'm on their emailing list though. [laughing] I'm doing something right.
Brendan Descamps 17:11
I guess, would you - since you never attended or you're not a member - would you feel
welcomed in a space like that? Do you think?
Sabrin Gadow 17:19
Sabrin Gadow
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sabrin Gadow 17:19
I think I'd feel welcomed because I know all the Muslims there. I think I would still feel
general anxiety. I have anxiety, but just like, really anxious around Muslims, just because
I'm openly queer. So it's like it's hard and being Somali, people always assume I'm Muslim.
So it's like that kind of dichotomy, where it's like, I'm not this, but I'm this. And I'm hated
because I'm this, but not this. So yeah. Um - Welcome? Yes, nervous, but definitely.
Brendan Descamps 17:43
Okay. Thank you. With that being said, since you don't attend, uh, MSA meetings, and you
don't necessarily find like your community there. You feel welcome there. Right. You said
you had friends. But that's not necessarily like your, like space you - right?
S
Sabrin Gadow 18:02
It's not my area.
Brendan Descamps 18:02
Yeah. So what other identity based organizations have you been a part of? Or are you a
part of here during your time, at Augsburg?
S
Sabrin Gadow 18:11
PASU, mainly. Just because PASU be - 10/10! Ugh. [laughing] Everyday! Shout out to PASU!
They're really great. They put on a lot of great events. I love going there and they're
always really nice and funny. All the people I know there are hilarious. Um - other than
that - I've recently started going to uh, Queer Indig - Queer Indigenous and People of
Color, (QIPOC). Which is actually really fun. Because one of my friends being the
President, so I'm like, let me go support. But I'm like, I can't show up next year, let me go to
like their last cool events. And it was actully really fun. They're really cool people. And it's
like, it's nice. It's like this community, and it's like, it's just great for like, queer people of
color and indigenous people of color, or - oh my god. [emphazing] "queer indigenous and
people of color, which is really nice, because that's often like you live confined. Because
most spaces are like - more queer spaces are just white, which is? [whispering] a-wholenother thing. But, yeah, PASU and QIPOC.
Sabrin Gadow
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Brendan Descamps 18:58
Okay, do feel like you'd be welcomed at QPA or?
S
Sabrin Gadow 19:03
A little - I mean, Yeah of course - QPA is Yeah, no, I actually never went to their events.
They seem - they seem nice. Yeah, I should go.
Brendan Descamps 19:16
Okay. Um - So you were definitely invigorated when talking about PASU. Can you talk a
little bit about how that community or how that like is a community for you? Or how this
community makes you feel here on campus?
S
Sabrin Gadow 19:34
Um - going to a predominately white school - It's just it's nice to know, that there's other
people on campus that share similar identities with me. So I'm always just like, "Ah, yes,
another Black person!" Like I'll see you around the quad. I like to make eye contact, like I
see you - I know it's hard. Or just like people who are in the simi - the struggle. Like, um also, PASU members are just fun, like they - like the one last month that I went to other
than - event, the - the, elections, was like this trivia night they had and it was like fun
because we were all like super comp - I was super competitive [laughing] I'm not trying to
make assumptions, I was super competitive. It was fun, we got to bond by - we all make
fun of eachother and it was nice and we joked around. And also like a lot of people I know
go to - go to PASU events it's always like catching up with friends you dont get to see that
often or just like kiking it up with the one's you do see often. They always have food. The
board's great. Uh - like I don't know, PASU just be moving - I think I just feel comfortable in
that space and that's not something I really feel all the time around campus. So it's nice to
like come to a certain place or come to an event like - be like, "wow, I don't feel weird," or I
don't feel anxious, I just feel comfortable.
Brendan Descamps 20:37
Awesome. And that necessarily isn't a feeling that you get at a PWI, primar - primarily - or
predominantly white institution, right? Okay -
Sabrin Gadow 20:51
Sabrin Gadow
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S
Sabrin Gadow 20:51
It's like the saying where it's like, "you have to be comfortable with being uncomfortable,"
or - not. [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 20:57
Is that a saying? [laughing]
S
Sabrin Gadow 20:58
Yeah, it's horrible. [laughing] People would say that like - you have to be comfortable with
being uncomfortable. And it's like well "comfortable with being uncomfortable," am I just
comfortable then? But that's off topic
Brendan Descamps 21:07
Not - I feel like that might be a little on topic considering like all the um - events that have
been on campus recently With folks "challenging" students of color based on like, quoteunquote "academic freedom," but
S
Sabrin Gadow 21:22
Oh my god -
Brendan Descamps 21:22
That's um - that would be the side note but, um - So I guess how have - identity-based
organizations had an effect on your college experience?
S
Sabrin Gadow 21:34
Um - they made me feel just, like a sense of community that like, that wasn't just like that
compounds like with like PWIs, since community feels fostered like, we have to hang out
with each other because there's so like, little of us but like, PASU it just feels organically
um - or like Identity-based ones they just feel organically - I feel like I can just give people
that I know or don't know, it just is feels - it feels nice. It has made my overall college
experience, much better. I feel like if I wasn't - because of those kind of, uh - groups who
were just like organizations that if I didn't go to I would've felt like, it was just me and my
Sabrin Gadow
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couple friends who were living off campus. I would have not been able to like socialize
with people as much or as often. Or like just randomly want something to do, like hey I
saw your event, you seem really dope. You know? So yeah, it's definitely made me more
social, maybe more like I feel like I actually belong on this campus. Yeah, that's awesome. I
love that. When did you get involved with PASU and QIPOC? Uh - QIPOC has been like
twice. [laughing] [indistinguishable] I came, and was like, "hello." I left. I mean, I actually
haven't gone to many PASU events this year because I've just been working like all
Thursdays and their events are Thursdays but I know a couple of the board members so I
was hitting them with that - being like, "alright, of course I'll come." [laughing] Um - But I
honestly, I haven't been to PASU for a while now. Like, I've been active member for a while,
since like freshman year just because we're first year - just because I was a first year, "Yes,
PASU, of course!" And yeah, so they have my heart forever.
Brendan Descamps 23:00
No, that's awesome. A lot of first years are timid, necessarily like when it comes to like
student organizations. So it's good to hear that you came out right away and started
attending their events and meetings.
S
Sabrin Gadow 23:11
Oh, that's because Summer Bridge forced us. I was on campus all summer and I was
bored.
Brendan Descamps 23:14
Summer Bridger -
S
Sabrin Gadow 23:15
God.
Brendan Descamps 23:18
Okay. Um, how have these organizations helped you grow as a person or a student here
on campus? If at all -
Sabrin Gadow 23:33
Sabrin Gadow
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S
Sabrin Gadow 23:33
I mean, I just - I don't think I'm like, grow - like I don't think there was anything changing
about me. I think It was more just about feeling comfortable in spaces. Um - Yeah, I guess
it's nice though now, because it's like recognizing more faces and more like other like
[indistinguishable] areas. That's nice. Now, I'm just like, I feel more comfortable in other
spaces because I actually take mine now. or - Yeah.
Brendan Descamps 23:58
Okay. So, about student organizations and like academia, like academics here on campus
- do you feel like being involved or like this fostered community, not fostered community,
this organically produced community with PASU or other orgs have like helped you in your
education academically or like, hindered it, depending on your involvement with it?
S
Sabrin Gadow 24:27
This year, obviously it's helped and I haven't gone the events. Last year, there was a whole
time where I had been like, "I'm just going to spend a couple hours and do my homework."
Homework never got done. [laughing] So I guess it's - it was definitely hard first year just to
find that like balance of like, do my homework and like, still attending events - having fun,
like being social. So I guess it's helped me, learning how to be better at time management
- it's hindered me because I suck at time management. [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 24:53
That's fair. I think we could all understand that. And uh - this - this week, the week before
finals week. Do you think - how do you think you would have fared at an institution that
wouldn't have identity organizations like PASU? In that case, like how do you think your
education would have fared?
S
Sabrin Gadow 25:16
I think honestly it would have been worse because those kind of um - organizations that
like are meant to create safe like, a space specifically for Black people and I think I would
just feel alone on campus especially at a predominantly white school I would not be able
to socialize with everybody all the time. Augsburg is super diverse, but like if I went to
school at like, St. Thomas, I would've been - Sad all the time. Because it would have been
like, I don't see anybody that looks like me, or like anybody who [indistinguisable], and it
makes it like, it's all fun games, but like, nobody is going to get you - get you. All I'm going
Sabrin Gadow
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to say is skin-folk is not kinfolk. I'll say it again, skin-folks is not kinfolk. So I guess it's very
important because it creates a community that someone could like focus on and find and
help, especially at a PWI.
Brendan Descamps 26:06
I wanted to go back. So PASU to you, is definitely like the main community that you feel
like um -
S
Sabrin Gadow 26:14
Roll heavy
Brendan Descamps 26:15
Yeah, definitely. Definitely your main source of community. But in regards, to like a large
identity group on campus, then right?
S
Sabrin Gadow 26:24
Mhm -
Brendan Descamps 26:24
Okay. I guess how do your um - queer identities intersect with how you interact with like,
PASU? And like folks at PASU? Like - How does those - how do you how do your African
slash, like black identities interact with your queer identities?
S
Sabrin Gadow 26:45
So in the Black community, specifically the African community, like African - like Africa, I
found out there's like some homophobia in the Black community, a lot of homophobia. So
that's always been hard. I feel like with Augsburg, being in college and being a little more
open-minded, I'm not going to lie it doesn't really come up. I mean, I'll make a joke here in
there, but a lot of people just assume I am because I hate men, which is 100% valid. I do a
lot of anti-men jokes. And you know what? I mean all of them. I laughed so what?
[laughing] So yeah, I guess. I mean, when I am, like, more openminded, being like, Oh,
yeah, I definitely am queer. Then I think it's like - people are just like, "oh cool," like it's
Sabrin Gadow
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never been a problem for me. Especially like, at PASU events. I mean, could PASU do more
events with like, could PASU do more events like thatare caterered to queer people, and
or queer Black people? Of course, we all could, but it's never been an issue for me.
Brendan Descamps 27:35
Awesome. Thank you. So I guess we can move on to some general questions. Would you
recommend organizations like these incoming first year students?
S
Sabrin Gadow 27:46
Yes, I think if you're not coming in, like, like, say, like you do SOAR, it was alone, you didn't
[indistinguishable] - good group of friends that you can come into the school year with,
that's just what Soar is, you find like two people you like, you're roommates with them and
your friends. If that's how it happened is over, which is great, because it helps you find
people, meet people. Even if you didn't find people during SOAR, you met people during
SOAR. It's just really great. I think it helps you find people you actually like, and they share
identities with, not saying that shared identities is the end all be all, but I think it is
important just to like know that like no matter what you'll still have a place that
celebrates your identity and who you are as a person.
Brendan Descamps 28:22
Yeah, that's wonderful. I love that. Um - So, I guess we kind of already touched on this but,
um - Now, I'm just gonna ask it because it's here. [laughing] We talked about a little bit
already. Is there a place on campus that you feel accepted in all of your identity
simultaneously, where you feel like you can be 100% you and not be questioned about it?
S
Sabrin Gadow 28:46
When I'm hanging out my friends. My friends are cool shit. I love all of them. They're great.
Like, I don't know, it's just like, it's nice, because they know who I am. They know what I'm
about. So it's like, I never have to - actually have to pick and choose between what I want
to be today, like do I want to be Black first? Do I want to be a non-binary? Be queer?
Instead, I can always just been me. Yeah, so it's nice. Um - Yeah, so I guess now
[indistinguishable] we'll see here.
Sabrin Gadow
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Brendan Descamps 29:13
Yeah, definitely. I just had a thought come up and a question. Do you feel as though you
have to pick and choose? Like, while you're in classes, or while you're just navigating a
PWI, such as Augsburg?
S
Sabrin Gadow 29:27
Yeah, I actually, it's, it's been so weird, because I recently came out as non-binary. So it's
been like, a really weird transition. Like, having to ask my people being like, 'Huh, they
are." Or like, just like, now people ask me really weird questions. So it's like to stop that I
have to be like, I'm just not going to talk about it at all and allow myself to be
misgendered. Or I have to be like, "No, no, I'm not letting myself be misgendered." And I
have to be like, "hey, not right." But then I have to sit there and like deal with all of those
invasive, really weird questions. It's super weird, when, like, when I'm in class talking about
something I like being like black and queer. And then like, I know, it's - I don't feel I have to
pick and choose, but I feel I have to either up-play one or down-play the other. So I can't
like, so like instead of like, talking about both, I'll be like, today I'll be Black today. I'm
talking - I'm -it's not today I'll be Black. It's more like today we'll focus more on black
topics. Then like queer topics. Or today we'll focus more on, "that - there" and not because
like, like me, because my certain spaces. It's not everyday this, that, and the third. Does
that make sense?
Brendan Descamps 30:29
Yeah. Thank you for answering that.
S
Sabrin Gadow 30:32
Well it was a confusing answer.
Brendan Descamps 30:33
It's a confusing topic.
S
Sabrin Gadow 30:35
Yeah, I was, like I don't know how to say it, like, like, for example like um - one of my
classes I talk a lot about race. So my professor, I know he can't stand me, but I talk a lot
Sabrin Gadow
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about race cause otherwise it's like, "yeah, and what about it?" Like, I'll talk like three times
- like once or twice, once or twice, like here and there more about like just being critical of
heteros. But, it's ever like, but in other classes, it's more about like, like queer topics, or
some classes. I'll talk more about - being Muslim, or like being Muslim - actually, I don't
really talk about that at all, but like, you know, it really depends on the situation and the
place. And what I've decided to be open about that day.
Brendan Descamps 31:19
Thank you. At this time, I think we've covered a lot of bases. Um - and I want to open up
some time to you if you feel as though you want to, like - revisit any topics. Or if you feel
like we skimmed over something that you wanted to talk about more in depth. Or if there's
something that's not, you know, that we didn't like talk about at all that you want to talk
about? If not, that's totally fine to. We can make some space for that.
S
Sabrin Gadow 31:50
Um - I don't know, I guess we talked about questions, but like - I don't know. I think we
went over everything - everything I think the overarching theme is that at the end of the
day you have to be yourself and if someone's mad - It's like if someone is upset or wants to
be mad at me, don't want to be my friend? Don't talk to me? Oh, no. [sarcastically]
[laughing] Just be you. That's it.
Brendan Descamps 32:18
Okay, great lesson.
S
Sabrin Gadow 32:21
Thank you. My Gemini moon popped out. [laughing]
Brendan Descamps 32:26
As I hoped - it did. Okay, well, thank you, Sabrin. Um - It's been great. I appreciate you.
S
Sabrin Gadow 32:34
Thank you.
Sabrin Gadow
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Sabrin Gadow
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Show less
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let'... Show more
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
All right. Let's begin, can you begin by introducing yourself, your name, and your birthday.
RA
Yeah. My name is Roula Alkatout, or pronounced the Arab way Roula Alkatout. And my birthday
is July 14 1990.
RT
Great, let's start off by having you tell tell me about yourself.
RA
Yeah, I'm right now I work at a recycling nonprofit in Minneapolis, educating people about
recycling and composting. Before that, I was a case manager. I interned and then Americacorps
and then worked at a nonprofit for a total of eight years. So I left that job about a year ago. And
yeah, should I go into like family history, or?
RT
Well, my next question, I guess is, tell me about your family?
RA
Yeah. So, my family came to the states in 1990. Where they they left Kuwait because of the
Gulf War invasion. So they were given the opportunity... Really, it was luck and just chance so
when the Gulf War invasion was happening, the only reason why my family got the option to
come to the States was... or got the option to leave Kuwait we didn't know that it would be to the
States was because one of my brothers was born in Florida. My parents had him so he's a US
citizen. So it was a US citizen in a war zone. So we I think, my mom I think we got on the last
plane leaving Kuwait before no more people could leave. My parents had 24 hours to decide
what to do. So they're given I don't know about the government been notified, like you can
leave, but you have to decide within this within 24 hours.
And I think, sadly, that's not, that wasn't like a new thing necessarily for my parents to have to
do, except for they had four kids, whereas they've escaped war multiple times in their lives. Like
collectively, it's been four times between the two of them where they've had to leave their home
because of war because of like, safety. So they decided to leave and they also within those 24
hours, had to pack everything that they could so they left everything thinking maybe that they
would come back. I don't I don't know if they thought it was like a permanent forever thing. But it
was. We couldn't go back.
And we ended up - so the first flight was to London. And then the flight was to North Carolina.
And right now still, there's a lot of I think there's a lot of immigrants in North Carolina from that,
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
from when that was happening. The only reason why we ended up in Minnesota is that my dad
went to school - I think he went to college with somebody who works, worked here. My dad
connected with him and the person said, Listen, like, we will like, come here, and I'll like help
you out. And so we came here and we have not left. So that was, that's like a major part of like,
how its shaped - how my life has been shaped but I can get into a little bit of history with my dad
leaving.
So he is - we're Palestinian and my dad was seven or eight when the occupation was
happening in Palestine, and was forced out. And I think it was '49 when his family had to leave,
so he has memory of like being forced out so when I said like, this wasn't his first time
experiencing this - It's because in Palestine, they had everything take everything taken away,
forced out and ended up in Syria.
And my mom has memory of just war. And I don't want to say that, like, it's all terrible and war
is... like, it's not like there wasn't joy, but there's so much war that has shaped my parents and
led us hear. So my dad's experience in addition to just like our story of immigration, or
immigrating here, and like being refugees, but like, we came here, because my brother is a
citizen and like this weird, like, refugee immigrant status, but then not having like a country of
origin because we're Palestinian was weird. It's still kind of weird.
So anyway, my dad ended up in Kuwait because of school and work and my mom moved to
Kuwait with her family when she was younger and they met there. And when we came to the
States, it was 1990. So I was a baby. Like, I don't I didn't know any. I didn't know any of this. So
we got to the States. And my dad was a pharmacist and he couldn't practice because - I know
that he took the exam maybe twice here to be able to practice here but I don't know if it was a
language barrier. I don't know if it was like not being able to like continue leaving to take the
test. I don't know maybe for some reason I have in my mind that he had to go to Chicago to take
this exam. But that could be just something I have mixed up but regardless, he couldn't he
couldn't become a pharmacist here. I'll - even though he had years of school he was a
practicing pharmacist, so that's just like another thing that they had to leave behind. You know,
like a piece of your identity, like all of your identity, you know, what you worked for.
So, we were really lucky where we met people who... I don't know how we met them, but they
were involved in our lives forever. Like the woman who was - like helped us with like getting
coats and like pots and pans and like getting us settled and like putting my brothers into Title
One classes to make sure that they're able to like, have assistance with learning English and
reading English.
There were those people there like, we had such a lucky situation, because like, we had
connection, and then I don't, I don't know how we met this family. But we had like, support
forever. We've always been surrounded by really supportive people. And it was important back
then, because it's like, my parents world got turned upside down. They had four kids under,
like, I don't know, probably under 15. And one was an infant, which is me. And it's like, you're in
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
this entirely new world, unexpectedly. So we got a lot of support from people. Like when we
when we came.
So, we lived in an apartment and my parents both worked pretty like odd jobs... factory work
and my dad owned a corner store in St. Paul called Craig's Country Boy. And his name - people
used to call him Ernie and his name is Awny and that always we still laugh about it today - that
people would call him Ernie. I know it's like classic - I don't even know if you would like, like, tell
them that wasn't this name is like, Okay, this is what it is.
Yeah, and eventually, my mom got a position as a teacher. Doing... right now she's a special ed
para. But back then she had like, various roles and para professional, like, as a para
professional.
And my brothers and I, I mean, we like assimilated. And I guess I'll only talk like speak for
myself. But I think growing up - we grew up in Anoka, which is like, pretty white, pretty Christian
more than - I mean, I would say Christian and then white. It's like, you know where people's
values are. Um, so, yeah, I'm just like, Can I go into like, growing up in Anoka?
RT
Yeah, please.
RA
. . . being a Muslim... Should I reel it in?
RT
You're right on track.
RA
I so went to school, and I did not know of really any other Muslims, except for like, one or two
families, but was never really connected with them, just for whatever reason. But I think like, as I
got, as I was older, I realized all of the, like, terrible things that I experienced, but I didn't even
realize we're terrible just because there was nothing to like, red, like, show me red flag, I guess.
Um, so yet, I really tried. And is is like, something I regret so much as like, I like lost the
language so fast. I spoke Arabic. Like, I mean it's, my parents still speak it, my dad almost
exclusively speaks in Arabic. My mom, I mean, they're both still fluent.
My older brothers are like, like, they, they can talk and like, understand, and I lost a lot of it. And
it really was, like, I'm just trying to fit in, I'm just trying to like survive in Anoka. Like, where you
know that you're different, There are different, like, it's, you just know, you're different. So I think
I just tried super hard to, like, blend in. Not that I ever denied that I was Muslim, ever. Um, but it
was just like, you just try to get by and like to have as much of a normal life because you've had
these, like, your parents have had these traumatic experiences, and like your siblings remember
things of was?
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
So yeah, it's just like, your, it's just so hard to find the spot to be content with both these lives,
like when you're young, and, you know, you're like families trying to, like, keep this, like, keep
the language alive, keep the culture alive. But at the same time, you're like going to school and
you're trying to just like, be like other people. And just like be... normal, but normal didn't have, it
shouldn't have been that I needed to sacrifice one thing for the other. That was,
I mean, maybe it's because of the time that we were, like, my age of like, oh, like in the 90s, or
in the early 2000s. Like, that's just the way it was people weren't as like, open or, like, willing to
hear you out. I would say, I'd say that it's still a problem. Like, I mean, of course, it's still a
problem. But I'm just looking back at it. Like all I wanted us to just like have a normal life.
And not to say my parents didn't provide because they, I mean, I think five years after we came
to the States, they bought a house. Like, they truly like, hustled and like, did everything they
could to, like never make us feel like we were like in a crisis. Like they did everything they could
to provide for their kids. And they did I mean, they have four grown kids that are like, healthy
and have careers and like, it's truly like the ideal story of a family coming here. Yeah, but it is
like we had a lot of - we were lucky with who we knew. So I digress but...
RT
Yeah, cool. I want to ask you, what was the attitude towards religion in your house growing up?
RA
It was... like, very, there like, religion was important to my family. I remember we would do, like,
Qur'anic studies with other Muslim families. All of my siblings and I, at one point, were in
Sunday School for Islamic Studies and for the language. I mean, still now my dad is like, you
know, reciting things from the Qur’an, or like talking religion but I mean, when I was younger, it
was like, You hang on to that, that's like, we're not in the Middle East. We're not in like, this isn't
where we're from. We're here, but we do have our religion. So we're going to, like, hold that and
practice it and be proud of who we are and where we're from.
And I'm really thankful for that. Like, I love being proud of my heritage, and the religion and like,
where I come from - being a Palestinian, even though I've never been. Like, and I think that's to
do with them of like, no, you're going to - just this is how it is, you know, not that we're all like,
super religious, or we all have our different like, spectrums, or, like levels of belief, or whatever.
But...
RT
You do have different levels of belief with your family?
RA
Yeah, I mean, I think like...
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RT
...Was it always like that?
RA
I don't think so. I think when you grow up, in general, you start to just like form your own ideas...
or not ideas, but like, you have more space to like, Think for yourself. And I think that now, it's
so much about - in my eyes, it's like keeping the culture alive. Like the practice of, like,
celebrating, I mean, that's like a tradition. And that's a very important thing to our family. So you,
you take the day off, you go to prayer with your family, and you have a super big meal. And you
celebrate, like the end of Ramadan, like, those things are so like, embedded in my family.
And like, I think they're - my mom especially is so good at like, we are going to engage your
nieces and nephews, we're going to, like, make this fun and make make this... like, you know,
my nephew, just the other day was like, I love Easter because of the Easter egg hunt. It's like,
oh, cause my two of my brothers married, like, white people that are from here. And like, they
converted. So they're raising their kids Muslim, but like, they have family, like their family
members are Christian, whatever. So I was like, wow, like, how do we make Ramadan... like,
like, engaging? or whatever... So it's like, let's do like a lantern hug- hunt, or whatever. So it's
like, how do we keep it important? Like, how do we keep the tradition and the culture alive?
Because you don't want it to be lost over time. Because it's such a beautiful thing. Like, how do
you keep... How do you keep young people engaged? Like, what do you teach them? What do
you show them? What do you want them to carry with them that's positive to share with the
world to like, stop looking at you in such a negative way.
My mom hosted - my older brother has a couple buddies that she hosted for the Fourth of July.
And she made this like super Palestinian meal, like our favorite meal, we had it like a barbecue
outside, and it was super nice. And she had like American flag paper plates and napkins. And
we were like, Mom, like, Why are you like doing this? Like, why you like being like this? And she
said, like, I want, I want people to know that we're just like them. And that was like, I understood
her so much... in that moment of we're just like you, we like the same things. We can celebrate
the Fourth of July, there's no difference.
And I take - what I take from it is like... these people who... one couple who brought their kids,
like they're going to like, their kids will remember us, ideally. And instead of like listening to what
people say on the news of like stereotypes of Arabs or Muslims, they like have a person to
associate that like positive, that positive experience with and say like, Well, no, just because this
person's Muslim doesn't mean they're bad. It doesn't mean that they're terrorists, because some
people really think that and that's because their parents teach.. teach them or the classroom
teachers it or whatever.
So it's like, you keep your culture. And sometimes it's like, not even the religion, but like, the
culture is so important. And it's a beautiful thing. And it like makes you want to like, hold it
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tighter, the more negative thing like the more than negative things happen. And oddly, like it's a
protective thing. Like... Yes. Yeah, you just want to protect it because it was beautiful, like you you think of all these, like family gatherings, and like the music and the laughter and the
language, and the people associated, it's like, it's beautiful. You don't want to lose that. And you
want people to know that it's, you're just like them just from a different place.
RT
So then that's kind of like, you know, that's your, your, your parents keeping their culture alive in
their home. And then as we like, get more into the conversation about school and kind of
bumping up against like, you know, American culture.
RA
Yeah.
RT
How was school? What was the attitude towards school and in your home? Like, with your
parents?
RA
Yeah. I mean, it was, like, you're going to school, and you're going to do well. I think a lot of
parents, but like, think that way they want their kids to do well, but I, for my parents, it was like,
you're going to do well, you're going to go beyond, like, ideally, you're not going to stop at
college, you're going to go beyond, like you're going to go to grad school, you're going to be a
doctor or a whatever. Like it was school first, above anything, because that was like the
foundation of your life is going to be like your success in school is going to take you places.
And I think... there was no question about me going to college. And, like, knowing that they my
parents did what, whatever they could to be able to let me go to college and to be able to take,
like a financial burden off of me, because it's education is like, everything. It really is everything.
And especially to my dad, because he did - He went through so much school. And he went to
school in a time where you like had to hand draw your like, plants that you're growing like, I
don't know, he's a pharmacist so like, the beautiful plants that you had to hand draw that you
were studying, you didn't have a graph for you didn't have a thing like a projector or whatever.
So it's like to him, you go to school, you maybe run into issues with like, ignorant people. And if
you ever need - if they ever needed to intervene on something they would, but they knew... I
think especially after September 11th happened, they knew that like, it wasn't always going to
be easy for us even more.
But I can't ever remember a time where they just like, brush school aside or your education
aside. It's just, it wasn't a question. I'm so thankful for it. Like, I've never just like miss school all
the time. Thankfully, I had a mom who could drive me to school if I ever needed to. I took the
bus or whatever. But it was never a question that I was like, not going to do well in school. It
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wasn't like a toxic environment at all. But I was like, No, like, I'm going to go to school, and I'm
gonna, like, try hard. And like have hiccups. But still, like, take it seriously.
RT
Sounds like you're very supported in that endeavor.
RA
Oh, totally. Absolutely.
RT
And then so in the school, what were your friendships like? Like, who did you associate with?
What did you do for fun with your friends?
RA
Yeah, I, I had a best friend who I hung out with all the time. And a few other friends where we
were just like, talk between classes all the time. And on weekends, I was not allowed to go to
football games. That was like the big thing in Anoka, and probably everywhere in high school.
But just because it's like not a normal thing in like, you don't go to like a football game. This is
not a thing back home. Or like it's not a normal thing. And also like very, like, strict parents too
like they're only daughter doing random foot- what's a football game? No, you're not going.
RT
They have futball, like soccer...
RA
They have soccer. But it's also like with other Muslims and like met with all these other variables
that you can't control or you have no idea what it's like, like, my dad is older. So to him, it's like,
no, like, you're not doing that you're not going to prom. Like what is - no, like? Absolutely not. So
it was a lot of like, I could not do a lot of what my friends did in high school. Because my dad
was strict. And because of was just like not as... it just simply wasn't a thing that you did...So...
RT
How was that?
RA
Oh, it was terrible. It was awful. It was awful! Because I didn't I mean, I still don't understand. I
don't think that that's like a good way to protect a kid. I think. Luckily, I like stayed out of
dangerous situations when I moved out because I think so a lot of people are like, okay,
whatever I'm like, fuck this, I'm going to do whatever I want to and I'm just gonna, like, be
reckless. Thankfully, that didn't happen to me. But I think like it totally could have it happens to
people all the time. I don't think it was I don't think that's a healthy thing. I think they wanted me
to be safe and they wanted me to be healthy and have a safe home. But I also think like, there if
there comes a point where you have to like give a little and say okay, we're not like this isn't
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Kuwait, this isn't Syria, it's not Jordan, we have to like recognize that this is a norm and just
because you're doing this thing that maybe you never did like a parent never did when they
were younger. It doesn't mean that this your kid's gonna lose everything about culture just
because they're going to like a football game.
But yeah, other than that we would like meet on weekends like weekdays just do or weekend
days, my friends and I would just like do stupid stuff like go to BestBuy and they had those like
new Mac Book photo booth photos... we would do stupid stuff like that.
There's not much to do in Anoka... just go to the BestBuy, go to Subway. Yeah, and like
hanging out at people's houses. This friend one of my best friends there from high school that I
don't have any contact with anymore. Because she was also... she is evangelical Christian, like
later I realize like, the intent a lot of times it's like trying to get get me to convert, which was like
a very sad thing to realize...
RT
In high school?
RA
Yeah, in high school. And like would like weirdly say like super disrespectful things about the
religion - about my religion versus hers.
So that was like a weird thing to just like, have this friend for so long. And then finally be like, oh,
like she's kind of terrible to me. But that's again, like when you get out of it. And you're like, Oh,
that's not normal to like, be told that your belief is bad. Because even though I'm Muslim, I am
like, Who am I to say anybody else is wrong for what they believe? That's but that's the type of
person I am. Doesn't matter to me what you believe or don't believe it's like, we're all on the
playing fields. Like if you're a good person, that's great. Like, we can coexist together. So yeah.
RT
Did that come to a head in high school or after high school?
RA
I think there was one time that has really stuck with me that I think is like shaped, like shaped
the way we just kind of drifted apart... it was, Eid... So after Ramadan, it happened like the most
joyous, like, exciting day. And I think we were talking on the phone, because I didn't go to
school that day, because you get off school because it's celebration. And she had said, I don't
even know why it came up. But she had said, I just want you to know, like, I don't think what
you're doing is right, talking with like, celebrating, like believing in the Prophet Mohammed.
Or maybe, yeah, I don't know. Like she had said, like, I don't think what you're doing is right.
And maybe even said that I like thought I was going to hell - that could be me fogging it with a
teacher that didn't have a good conversation with. But regardless, that really like, was so hurtful
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for someone to say that on like, such a such a special day, where I was always like, super open
to, like hearing about her religion.
And like even I don't even think my parents knew that I did this because they would probably
back then would have like, had a meltdown. But I would go to the like, Christian group thing at
high school in high school, where the like, Sure, I'll like go to this thing with you. But then later
realizing like what the hell like, Oh, no, like, this is just kind of all like a ploy. It was weird. After
she had said that, to me, it was really hurtful. And I kind of was just like, what, like, that's not
how a friend should be. And I never thought that about her, or the religion. I just never was like,
you're wrong. And you're a bad person for what you believe. And then after high school, she
had gone to like a very Christian College. So I think after that was just like a natural... like, oh, I
realized you really weren't a good friend. Like, super funny. Her family was like really welcoming
and lovely. But then they're... like, the negatives just outweighed the positives, just because I
realized even if you're you like young, and you say dumb stuff, so still, like very hurtful. And like,
she knew what she was saying, because it was like, so specific to you know, you're wrong for
what you believe. And that's sadly like, what their church taught them. So...Yeah...
RT
You talked earlier about like, wanting to fit in when you were young? Like younger? Like I was
imagine, like elementary age. Did that carry through through high school? Did you feel
assimilated, or whatever it was, by the time you were in high school?
RA
I did. I - people still knew that I was Muslim, mostly I mean, it was people that I had, like, known,
you know, all throughout Elementary, early middle school, high school. So people knew but it
was... it was not something I like, talked about all the time, not out of shame. But just to like,
make it through to like, not be "othered". Because I think it's super easy in high school to be
"othered" if there's like anything different with you, and I'm lucky- I mean, I, I had the idea of like,
okay, like, I can like do everything you all can. Like I can talk about the same things, I can have
same, like similar experiences with you just because like... Just because I have a family that has
a different religion, or I believe in something else that's like, outside of the norm doesn't mean I
have to be so different from you. And like I was craving that like, acceptance. I don't think I ever
got it. Or maybe I like from some people I did, but like, from... teachers, like, there's an awful
experience of like, you... my teacher joked about how - a few there were a few comments that
he made. But like one of them was... I think we were like joking about something. And he was
like, well, you're going to hell... But.. not.. I said something about religion, but like was like well
you're going to hell and I know what it's for. And it was like, very like, explicit. Like, it was like a
joke... A "joke", quote, you know, like, Ha Ha jokey, but like, that was a very loaded joke. And
like, talking about that to somebody in college, I realized, like... Oh, that was like, very racist...
very inappropriate to say to a student. And like, even if you didn't mean it.. I don't even think he
didn't mean it. Because why would you say that?
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And then another one was, like somebody joked about... this makes me so sad... But joked
about... like, said something about me being Muslim, and then was like "bomb squad!" And then
like, we like joked about it... Because I was like, okay, it's like a joke... But, yeah, it's just terrible.
It's like, you're trying really hard to assimilate into just like, be there. But you're also like hanging
on to your, like, your religion so like clearly it was like, I guess it was clear that I was Muslim.
And like that I was not shy about it. I probably wear a necklace that said God and Arabic, I'm
sure I did, because I wore it all the time. But it wasn't like, I didn't like talk about religion all the
time. Because that's just never, ever what I was like, and it's never like, I still am not like that.
But it was clear that I was different. Like you people just love to hang on to that in school,
especially like, you just love to, like, focus on that thing that makes you different. I don't know if
it's different now... As people... like, I mean, I can't say that Anoka has changed in that way.
Like... I don't even know if that teacher is still a teacher, probably is... But yeah, you just like, it
wasn't like a shitty time, like every day, but it was still like, there's clearly these things I like,
hung on to years after college, or I'm sorry, years after high school, because it's like, you don't
realize that stuff.
Maybe it's because I just didn't want to and then when I was around people who - to actually say
to me, like that wasn't okay. Like you shouldn't have like, why did that person make you watch
Passion of the Christ? That's not okay. Like, that's weird to do. Like, it's not until you have
people outside of that, that say that, that makes you think critically is like, oh, like, high school
was kind of just about being Muslim, but then being okay with people making jokes, and then
being scared when something like 911 happened or other attacks by Muslims or the war, like,
hoping that like you're not targeted for something, because of who you are. Because of what
people who claim to be Muslim do. It's like, a tricky balance to like, have normalcy. And then,
like, still be thinking about all that stuff.
Oh like... people hate where I'm from, like the reality like knowing like, oh, people really hate
where I'm from, and kind of trying to be like an ambassador to be like, not all people are like
this, like, not all Muslims, like, hate America, not all Muslims are going to like, bomb
somewhere. And that was like, the reality is like the closed mindedness there in schools, like
you actually had to try to say that. And I had a friend who told me like, honestly, if I had never
known you, I would just like, think everything on the news was true about like, what I hear about
you.
And I think that's still the case for some people in some areas, but it's like, Okay, I guess like, if I
got that one person, maybe they're, it's kind of like what my mom did for that dinner. It's like, oh,
like, maybe they'll hang on to that. Yeah, like, oh, not every, not every not every Muslim is
gonna like, not every Muslim hates America, and not every Muslims like out to kill people.
RT
Yeah. And hopefully, or I like to think too is like, you know, you only know a tiny fraction of the
people that you did that for, you know, how many people just knew you and just by that virtue if
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you weren't even good friends with them was like, oh, maybe this is okay. Or at least at least
gives them the idea...
RA
Yeah. Yeah! Yeah! It's plants, plants a seed... Yeah. And I mean, there are some friends from
high school, one in particular, that I'm still really close with. And we've even talked about that
stuff, like high school is weird. And like these weird things happened. Like, that's not normal... or
like that super Christian person... Like, she was kind of mean, and like reflecting like, as adults,
of how... l
I don't know what the word is, but how isolating it can be. It's just, it can be such an isolating
experience. If you have teachers that are saying, like, really inappropriate things, or you're not
surrounded by people that are like, look like you. But I don't think that - I mean, I pass as white.
So there's like some people that can tell like, oh, like, you're not white or like you're... some
people think I'm like, Hispanic or, or Spanish. So it's like, oh, you're not you're not from here. But
most of the time, I could, I could just pass. So it's like, knowing that I have the passing privilege,
but also knowing that like, they are not like me, like, I don't see anybody that looks like me in my
school.
It does shape who you are. Kind of like what we were talking about earlier. Like you don't you
can see yourself fitting into a place if you see others that look like you. But until you do that,
you're going to feel kind of like you don't belong, or, like you don't fit in. Which is weird. Cause,
yeah, high school wasnt awful, but it's just like these things shaped who you become and like
how you look at, like, what you would want to do for your kids and like, what you would want to
teach other kids of, like, inclusivity , and like, being equitable and like fair and kind. Yeah.
RT
I did want to ask about dating in high school... And if that was a possibility for you? or something
that you did?
RA
No, absolutely not.
RT
...yeah if you couldn't go to football games...
RA
No, absolutely. I think that's a great question. Because it's such a normal thing. Like in American
culture to, like, have boyfriends or to like, go on dates... Yeah, prom is this huge thing... That
was not... Not the case for me. But it's also I think it's two things. It's that, like, culturally, you just
don't date around. Like, that's not a, like an Arab Middle Eastern thing. It's, you don't do that.
And that was my first point is like, it's not a thing to do.
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And second, my - no - I'm the only girl, youngest daughter. It was like, the idea would cross my
mind. But there's no way that it would have happened. You know, it's like, yeah, I didn't, there
was no like option for it, I think. Because you don't like go on dates. You don't have a boyfriend.
Like the idea is... It's not a thing that exists. Maybe it's like, also like, my dad, where he came
from and his upbringing too... like, much more conservative.
And just that's not in his realm of thinking even now. It's like, what? like, dating is just yeah, so it
was a no go.
RT
Yeah. And maybe you relate to this, maybe not... but what role - you mentioned, like being the
only daughter. And so I'm wondering, what role did gender play? Either at school or at home? If
there was like, a different experience or similar experience? or...
RA
Yeah, I think gender played a huge role, huge role. Very... like, the family structure was very
much like patriarchal. So like, I think I stumbled on that word, but you get it. Of... as the
youngest. And as the girl, there's like, not much say, you're gonna like, Listen to what your dad
says. So I think like it had everything to do with my upbringing. And that's even those are things
I'm still like working on now. If like...
Your role is like, as a woman or a man or, like still unpacking all that stuff that I learned as a kid
that I'm like, I'm like, working on unlearning now. Of like, oh, like, you can still make your own
decision and like, have the right decision, even if, like a man doesn't approve or doesn't agree
with you. But when I was younger, that wasn't an option. It was very much like, you're going to
listen to what your dad said. And there is no question about it.
And I think in school, I probably had the same mindset, because that was what it was like, in - at
home. Like, no, you ask your mom, but like your dad usually ultimately has the say, like the end
say, like, he's the head of the house. He makes the decisions. So it... Yeah...
RT
Was there a difference then between you and your brothers? How you and your brothers were
treated?
RA
Yeah, 100% yeah. Oh thats my alarm... sorry.
Alright, so yes, the roles, like the treatment between my brothers and I was very clear, my
brothers used to be able to go out with their friends. Go to Minneapolis, like do all these things
that I was not allowed to do. And when I was eventually allowed to, I could never really go out
late. Like, it was so clear, it was a very, like, so, so unfair, based on me being a woman. Yeah...
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RT
So then I'm wondering, to what extent did you accept or challenge that growing up?
RA
Yeah, I would try to challenge it. But I think it wasn't met with much. You know, I didn't win. The
thing I will say that I did... that changed... Or the thing that happened that is not common for
women is to... well... I shouldn't say like, generally, but I moved away for college whereas
initially I was driving every day. But eventually, I think maybe like two months in I like had a
meltdown. Because I was driving so much. It was really stressful. So my dad was like, Yeah,
like I see, I see how stressed you, I see how tired you are. So I did end up moving to campus.
And I didn't move back home, which was very against cultural norms of like, you should stay,
like, keep living at home until you're married. And I have to say, That's still like something that
my dad like, is hurt by like to this day.
And I think that was my own way to like, take a quick - take hold and take control of that. Like, I
am like, a grown up. And just because I'm a woman, like it doesn't mean I can't like do what I
want to or live independently.
It is challenging, like, even as a 28 year old, being faced with that, like guilt and, like, shame. I
mean, there's lots of things with shame and guilt. And it's, it's hard. And I'm, I think it'll be less
hard eventually. But knowing that it like, I know I made the right decision, like recognizing you're
not a bad person, just because you didn't move back home, you know, but still being like, okay,
like, this isn't a normal thing. And it's not going to be a normal thing for my dad. I mean, my
mom was like, fine, she's over it, like, whatever, like live your life, but my dad is like, you never
moved back home. You know, like, and is really hurt by that. Um, so it still plays a role for sure,
like, still right now plays a role, but it's just a matter of now. How am I willing? Like, what am I
willing to do to like, take a lead on that and say, like, put it on to my terms instead of somebody
else's terms? ...takes a lot of practice, and it's exhausting.
Definitely, like, don't have it down. But it is like, I have the tools now to use. You know, I'm older
and like, I have more of a say, and I can like, I can explain myself better. But knowing that, like
my dad's old, and he's not going to change his mind about a lot of things and coming to terms
with that. For a man who like, got his life taken away, like, a few times, and like trying to hang on
- like goes back to that like hanging on to where you're from and like, hang on to your religion.
And there's only one way to do that to him. Or for him and his eyes. But yeah, I mean, it totally
plays a role. In, in it did then and it does now still.
RT
So you identify with being Muslim and Palestinian. So growing up in school, did you experience
those identities as one of the same? Or have you experienced - are there times when you've
experienced one without the other?
RA
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Yeah, I think that when I was in school, I really only identified - I just like, yeah, I only had the
Muslim part. And I think... now... like learning more, and just like being proud of where you're
from, and wanting your culture to stay alive, and like where you're from, is important. And it's
where your roots are...
In... Yeah, when I was in school, it just wasn't... I don't know - it didn't - it wasn't as important as
it is now. Because I think maybe I just have the capacity to be like, I'm Muslim, like, Middle
Eastern, not Pakistani, not Indian. You know, like, I'm from the Middle East. And that's how I
identified is like, I'm the middle - I'm like, from the Middle East. I think it's still hard - or it was
hard then to like, say yeah, and like Muslim, not white, even though I look white. And having to
like - that was probably more of like, hey, like, we're not white, my parents are darker than I am.
My siblings and I pass as white... I mean in most cases. But there are people who are also
passing in that are like way darker in like, you wouldn't call them white.
So it's like this weird identity of like, yeah, I'm Muslim. I look like you. But I know there's
differences. Now. It's like, I'm a Palestinian Muslim. And I hold those two very close together
and tightly think even more. So when, like tragic things happen. Like the New Zealand shooting
was like - you hold those things even closer to you, to protect them and to like, share positivity,
like positive stories, or just give people different outlook. So yeah.
RT
So you said youre Palestinian Muslim? Does American fit somewhere? Like where, you know,
where does it fit in that?
RA
Honestly, I wish it didn't have such a big place between the three. But it just does. Because I've
been here, this is all I know. So like, I'm an American... for so many reasons. And like in so
many ways. And I also am trying to find ways to like incorporate my Palestinian identity and
honestly try to put it above American. But it's not - it doesn't happen that way. Because it's not
surrounded by Palestinians all the time as I'm surrounded by Americans. And like, it's, yeah, I
am proud that I like have my Palestinian identity. And I'm like, very proud to be a Palestinian I...
Like... it's so close to my heart. I'm like, Yeah, like an American, but I don't see in... as I don't
see it in the same way at all, as I see, being a Palestinian. Being a Palestinian, in my heart
comes first. Because I truly feel like there are roots and like, there's history to that. And it's
special.
And I think part of like, part of the reason is like the story of my dad losing his home, like that
passes on to your kids. And like, I think my parents have done a beautiful job of sharing our like
story of coming here. So I just hold those things so tight. And so it's like the Americanness is
embedded. But I hold being Palestinian higher then I hold being an American. Not saying I like
don't like the privileges that comes with like being a citizen. Because I just became a citizen,
like, three years ago, last March, or three years ago in March. Yeah. So it's a new thing. And I
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
kind of don't believe it, I still don't really believe I have, like the protection that you are - that you
get with being a citizen.
But that's because I was, you know, didn't have it for years and years and couldn't work until I
had a green card and had to go through all these loopholes. And so like, doesn't feel real. It's
like cool that I have my citizenship. It's a privilege that I had, like a lawyer and like, assistance
and a car to get to all these places and appointments. But yeah, I think the Palestinian identity
like is like dear to my heart. And it's important to like, share it with people, like I cook Palestinian
meals when I can, I'm like, try to share them with people.
Cuz like you surround yourself. I mean, I surround myself with open minded people on like,
people who would never like, I would never do this, like I would never be around people who
didn't accept me. But its still fun that you like, this is the Palestinian meal and share it with other
people. Like, share your experiences.
RT
Okay, you just said something... about being a citizen - did that weigh on your mind growing up?
RA
It did because I couldn't work for - till I was 20. Excuse me, I like couldn't have a job. I couldn't
like, make my own money because I wasn't - I was - This is like the worst term to like, call a
person - But I was an alien. I had an alien ID. So it weighed on me in the like, knowing that we
weren't citizens, like nobody in my family but my one brother was a citizen. And as for - as long
as I can remember, my parents were working on it. And like, we were supposed to become
citizens, like five years after we were in the States. And then it was seven. And then September
11th happened. And then that was like, oh, like Muslims are terrifying. We're not going to give
them like citizenship.
And on top of that, like being - like having a Syrian passport for a Palestinian refugee. It's hard
to like, "Where are you from?" Youre like, not from anywhere because Palestine is not identified
as a country. You're not a citizen of Syria. You're not a citizen of Kuwait. So that was always
like, that was like pretty, like, pretty constantly, like I was I was aware of it all the time.
But I also was like, Yeah, like we have a lawyer or like somebody who's working on it, or like,
okay, I can't have a job. But at least if like, I can't have a job, but it's better than like, applying for
a job and then, like, being kicked out of America, because you don't have like, your alien card.
You know? So yeah, that's pretty constant all the time. And even now, it's still is because it's
like, what? it took me 25 years to become a citizen. It initially was only going to take me five. So
same for my parents. I mean, they just, they became citizen - or they got their green cards or
citizenship when they when I was 20. Because that's why I could start working is because I got
a green card. So just eight years, they've been citizens - not long. Yeah.
RT
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
A couple times, we've kind of like touched on 9/11. And I just, like, want to give the opportunity if
you want to, like talk about, like, anything specific, like around that time. You're old enough to
like remember that. Or, like any, like lasting effects. Obviously, things have gotten more
complicated. But in a lot of the research, there's a lot of - 9/11 is kind of a catalyzing - it's not
catalyzing - but to ... it brings together a lot of Muslim experience, but then a lot of research
started coming out of that big event. The reactions, I guess. So I just wanted to give you time to
talk about that if you want to...
RA
Yeah. Yeah, this is - it's... we'd... I forget - Like me and friends were talking about like, why, like,
when we found out about 9/ 11, and like, how, like, was it appropriate or inappropriate that it
was playing, like, when I was... it was in sixth grade... And I was in sixth grade... And they like, I
remember somebody that worked in the lunch room was running around class to class, saying,
like, they attacked... the Twin Towers or something. And the class like, What are you talking
about? like, what's going on? and the teacher just like, put on the news. So like, they were like,
telling everybody and I don't know, if we watched... I don't think we watched it for the rest of the
day. But I remember like watching it, and it was like nine in the morning, or whatever, their time
nine. So I think it was like our home room or something. And I just remember going home, and
my mom being terrified, because it was Muslims or they were Muslims who did the attacks.
And... just the like, fear and concern of like, being Muslim, and in that time, it was so unsafe. It
was so unsafe. Like women weren't wearing their hijabs, and like, people were getting attacked
and killed... So I think it always like that shaped me... to like, actually have fear or be fearful...
because of like, being Muslim, because now there was like this really big reason why you
should hate Muslims. And like a legitimate like, Oh, they killed a bunch of people. And this like
this... It's so easy to hate a group. Like it's so easy to hate the "other".
And, I mean, when the... shooting in Texas happened on the military base, I think, and like the
various other attacks, I mean, every time I don't think for as long as I live, I don't think I'll ever
not have like a paniced reaction. And like fear. Because, like, 9/11 was terrifying. It was like
tragic. It ruined like the innocence of like, school, like it ruined - it like shaped - You're... like, I
don't know how to say it. It was like being Muslim existing. But then being Muslim after this, like
terrible attack happened in feeling. Like,
at any moment, you could be targeted. At any moment, you can, like, get hurt, or somebody can
say something really painful and mean. And even even now like, honestly, what like my truest
nightmare is like being attacked in the mosque. Because that's like the most sacred and
peaceful place... Just worrying about like, Oh, my God, like, my dad has an accent.
Like... I hope that like when my brothers at Friday prayer, nothing happens to them. Or like,
what if I'm wearing this necklace? and somebody's angry? And like, does something? So it like
shapes how you think of it. And I'm not the only one like, this is totally not like a one, like a
random thing. But I think about it all the time. Like I think about 911 all the time. And like, if that
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
didn't happen, where would we be like as a country, in our like, hate towards, towards Muslims,
or, and not even just Muslims, it's people who, like, Sihks who wear who have the long hair, and
people always mistake them for being Muslim. And for just darker skin, people who are
mistaken for Muslims or, like Indian...
Like, people from India who are like, attacked and murdered because people do it of like,
because they think you're Muslim or whatever. It's like, it's always there. It's always there...
constantly for me. And that's just... doesn't like, eat away at me. But it's like a thing, where I
think of my nieces and nephews. And I'm like, oh, like, are they going to be ashamed? Are they
going to be scared to be Muslim? What's their experience going to be? I don't know. It's just,
yeah, it just changes you. Like, it was a sad, it was tragic. And then to be Muslim and have it
happen and like, kind of watch the world turn on you, in a way? is kind of haunting? Yeah.
RT
Yeah, good reason, I think.
RA
Yeah.
RT
I have a few more questions. So I couldn't figure out exactly how to word this question. But this
is how I've got it so far. Did you ever experience negative personal reactions to your Muslim
identity? So for example, did you ever wish to hide it? Or did you ever feel like restricted from it?
So not like from the outside, but like, internally? Did you ever feel like opposed to your?
RA
Mm hmm. Yeah. I think that there... the first thing that comes to mind, like when I was younger
was al- like drinking alcohol. Because that's... because Muslims drink alcohol, but it's like, in
their religion, you shouldn't. And I think when I was younger, really like, hating that part of it.
Like I resented that part of the religion, like why not? Like really, because like, especially when,
like, you're in high school, and people are starting to drink or experimenting with alcohol or pot
that's like, as for me, it was more alcohol that people were smoking or drinking.
But you have like this internal Battle of like, do I want to do this? Do I want to just like, put this
identity away for a second? So I can, like, have this experience with people to like, be normal?
Yeah, that's like the biggest thing. Now it's like, whatever, I don't drink and it's barely even
because of religion at this point. I think now, it's like, oh, I've seen it damage a lot of people. I've
gone this long. I'm just like, not going to. Now, it's just like a personal choice. Not to say it's like,
oh, sometimes I would love to, like, have a really nice glass of wine, or, like, enjoy this beer that
all my friends love. And then, there, sometimes I'm like, Oh, I just wish that I was like, put that
little part of guilt away and just like, do it. But I think like, it's kind of like, makes me think of like
Catholic guilt. I don't really know exactly what that means completely. But it's like this, like
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
Muslim guilt, like, oh, like, just like, I wish I could just, like, put that away for a second. And enjoy
this thing without feeling guilty.
And like dating, like, come on, like, just let me date? Or like, why is it really that bad? To just
like, date, or to like, meet people and like, learn who you like, or what type of person you like.
And then... the other thing is, like, being someone identifying as gay, like, Why Is that wrong?
But that's like... I don't think when I was in high school, and like, around super Christian people,
is one thing. But then when you shape what you believe yourself, that was like kind of an
internal thing. Like, is it wrong? I don't think it's wrong. Like, at my core, don't think it's wrong.
And so that's just something where I've been like, that's not wrong.
And God... like the relationship between you and whoever you believe, or whatever you believe
is like a personal thing. And... nobody can like judge it or speak on it. And like, my way of
looking at is like, probably like more liberal leaning. I don't know that everybody would
appreciate this but like, yeah, like, God and I have a relationship. I don't necessarily do
everything that like a proper Muslim should do. I know that. And I know that, like, nobody can
define like, what you believe nobody can judge what you have between whatever you believe,
whether it's like, nature, or, like, the beauty of flowers or animals, like nobody can, like speak on
that.
So I think I have those internal battles, especially like, I'm not going to go into this but like dating
somebody who's not Muslim that like internal, like, all right, well, I'm doing this, and it's my own
thing. And it's between me and God, how he wants to, like, God knows your my intentions,
nature knows your intentions. It's just like a very personal, personal experience. It doesn't need
to be judged by others. So yeah.
RT
Yeah, on kind of the other hand, what's the best or most impactful aspect of growing up
Muslim?
RA
Ohhh, I feel like the joy around like celebrating Ramadan and Eid. And like the fam- like the
Arab family gatherings. And like having those experiences as an adult, like those memories of
those happy times, and creating those memories with my nieces and nephews is so special. It's,
it's so meaningful and special. And my parents did such a good job of making it an important
thing. And, yeah, I think the best part is just like what we have now and like what we're able to
teach, like, our young family members, like the celebration, and like, yeah, fasting is super tiring,
especially when- when it's in the summer. And like, I'm super grouchy, because I don't have any
water or coffee, but then you like, eat, and then my mom makes us like really beautiful meal,
and we share it and then we're all tired.
It's like, a beautiful, it's like, beautiful, and, like, fills my heart with joy. And like a sense of
community, even just within my own family. It's like this special thing that we have, that we're
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
celebrating on our own, but also with millions of other people. Like simultaneously. It's it's
beautiful to have that and I'm really thankful... for that and to be proud, I think like, they really did
teach us to be proud. My parents did. Like proud of being Muslim for- all say for myself, like I'm
proud of being Muslim. I'm proud of being where I'm from. And I'm proud of what my family
represents. And I also know better than, like, I know that like when you're identifying as Muslim,
but then you do an evil act like you're not actually a Muslim. That's not what the religion is.
Religion is peace. And that's a beautiful thing. Like that's it is a peaceful religion.
And it's so easy to forget that right? Like, like, literally translates to peace - Islam is peace and
like, it's just a nice thing to carry. And to try to tell people... all religion has like, they're really like,
that's not cool. Like, that's not a great, like, way to see things or to talk of people. But it's, you
can hear hang on to the things that you appreciate and agree with. Yeah, they just I think, for
me, they really did teach me of like, pulling me back to my roots of like, Yeah, I don't like I'm not
the best practicing Muslim. Like, I will absolutely admit that. And I still hold it close and
appreciate it and like have a lot to learn still. So yeah...
RT
...that's really beautiful... Okay, so I want to wrap it up by just asking if there's anything you wish,
like in your schooling and growing up that your teachers and peers would have known about
you and your religion. And you can take it either looking into the past or like looking towards the
future, like, Is there anything that educators should know about their Muslim students?
Yeah. I feel like... one thing that I wish was wish that was different, like from my school
experience, was making sure that students didn't feel like they needed to forget their like native
language, and encouraging you to still use that, and not have to wash it away. And I don't know,
like the best way to do this of like, teaching people to be inclusive, or it gets so hard to say, like,
how people should do it. But I just wish that it was more of an inclusive environment for me and
for my brothers in school.
RA
Because there was no, it was just like this mystical thing that nobody wanted to touch on. And I
think that would have made a really big difference if, you know, if there was enough resources
and enough time for teachers or for them to bring people in just to educate everybody... that- I
think that would make such a big difference. to not make people feel "othered" it or make them
feel like they don't fit in. And I think even now it's so important...
Like, I guess in the cities to it's easier to say like you get a lot of people from different
backgrounds, I guess in certain schools, but it's like more in your face than it is like in the
suburban area. And some suburban areas. I just wish that it was like, I just wish they thought
more about what they were doing. Because it really does like impact your life. Yeah. But how
did they know? I don't know. How would they know to do that when there's such a small
population? Part of me is like, I can't blame them. Then another part is like, why was that
teacher saying that stuff? You know... yeah.
Transcript of Interview with Roula Alkatout by Robert Thames
4/4/19
RT
Well, hopefully, your story being added to the Minnesota Muslim stories that we're gathering is
at least a step in the right direction.
RA
Yeah, absolutely.
RT
Thank you for sharing.
RA
Yeah, my pleasure.
RT
Excited to add this to the collection.
RA
Thanks.
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Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good afternoon my name is Esteban Perez. It is Friday, April 19th, 2019. I am the oral
historian for this project. We are here at Augsburg University for an oral history interview with
Reies Romero. Reies, if you can introduce yourself to the recording giv... Show more
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good afternoon my name is Esteban Perez. It is Friday, April 19th, 2019. I am the oral
historian for this project. We are here at Augsburg University for an oral history interview with
Reies Romero. Reies, if you can introduce yourself to the recording giving your full name and
when and where you were born.
Reies Romero 0:19
Peace. This is Reies Francisco Romero, I'm from Albuquerque, New Mexico. I was born May
17th, 1976.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:27
All right. Thank you Reies. So you're from New Mexico?
Reies Romero 0:31
I am.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:32
Alright.
Reies Romero 0:32
I am.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:33
Do you usually say, when you introduce yourself your from New Mexico? Or do you say you're
from Minnesota?
Reies Romero 0:37
Um, I think it's, really depends who I'm talking to, but if they ask me, you know "Where were you
originally born?" You know, sometimes that's a question in -Esteban Perez Cortez 0:46
Yeah -Reies Romero 0:46
-- conversation, I always say Albuquerque, New Mexico, so. Part of my heart's there and part of
my heart is here in Minnesota.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:55
I feel it. So what is, what is your background? What do you like, what do you usually say about
like your heritage?
Reies Romero 1:04
My background is New Mexican Chicano. New Mexico has kind of a unique position within the
Latinx diaspora of, of the Western Hemisphere. It's kind of a mix of, you know, indigenous
cultures and Mexican and Anglo, to some extent, Asian. But I mean, there's a unique mixture of
how a New Mexican identifies if that makes sense. New Mexico has a long history, of course, it
was the third to last state admitted into the union. So but, you know, when I usually identify
myself, I would say Chicano.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:54
Chicano?
Reies Romero 1:55
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:56
Okay, right on, um, how impactful was your family's heritage on you, growing up, or even to this
day?
Reies Romero 2:03
Um, very impactful. I mean, my father instilled a lot of valuable principles in me. He's passed
away now, but he was very smart in the areas of history and archaeology. I mean, that's what
he did. He studied archaeology in Guadalajara, Mexico for, for nine years. He would take me all
over New Mexico, looking for little pieces of pottery, you know, and, and, and Indian arrowheads
and, and Turquoise pieces. And, you know, the history of the, the indigenous nations in New
Mexico was very important to, to our family, and, of course, everything that comes along with
that, food, and traditionally, they were Catholics, right. So that was very important to, to my, my
family.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:06
Right on. So when, when did you move to Minnesota?
Reies Romero 3:12
When I was very young, so I was, I was about five years old -Esteban Perez Cortez 3:15
Okay.
Reies Romero 3:16
-- Yeah. So I've been here ever since. It was kind of one of those situations where your mom
and dad got a divorce and so legal custody went to my mother.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:27
Yeah.
Reies Romero 3:27
So she, for the most part raised me. But I would see my dad, you know, very often within, you
know, before, he passed away when I was 20, so I would visit him in the summertime.
Sometimes during holidays, all kinds of stuff. So -Esteban Perez Cortez 3:47
Okay.
Reies Romero 3:47
-- but been here since five. Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:50
Most of your life then?
Reies Romero 3:51
Yeah and I'm 40 almost 43. So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:54
Okay, not too bad. So what does, what does Minnesota mean to you and your family?
Reies Romero 4:02
I mean, it you know, it's basically just me and my mom, but Minnesota is home. I mean
Minnesota is a, another unique state in, in the Union (United States). It holds a lot of qualities, of
course, it's cold as hell, but I mean, I mean, Minnesota is, of course, another territory of
indigenous land. I mean, you have.. a uniqueness here, when regarding, it kind of depends
where you live in Minnesota. Because if you ask somebody that's from the Iron Range, or, or
somewhere else, they're going to have a different experience. So I think we, as Minnesotans
have a lot of the same experiences, but we have to differentiate them depending on where we
live. If your city dweller or you live in rural areas, so but you know, Minnesota is, it'll have my
corazon (heart in Spanish). So New Mexico's the other half. It's kind of weird, you know, apple
pie and enchiladas type thing, you know, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:13
I mean, there's nothing wrong with that.
Reies Romero 5:15
I hope not.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:16
Yeah. So what's your, what's your educational background? Where'd you go to school?
Reies Romero 5:23
I went to St. Louis Park High School (Minnesota Suburb), and then, Saint Louis Park Junior
High and then High School. It took me.. it took, I didn't go to college traditionally, right out the
bat out of high school.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:35
Yeah.
Reies Romero 5:35
Okay. I didn't want to, and I, my mother couldn't afford it either. That's for sure. And it took me
until I was like 32 years old to go to college. And when I went to college, when I first went to
college, I went to St. Paul College. Because I just, you know, had recently moved to downtown
St. Paul, so, you know, why, go to MCTC(Minneapolis Community and Technical College)? Why
go to Ramsey Tech? Or, you know, Normandale (Normandale Community College), whatever -Esteban Perez Cortez 6:09
They're farther.
Reies Romero 6:09
-- Yeah, yeah, I mean, pick something that's close, right? So, going to St. Paul College, I really
didn't know what I wanted to be. I was like, man, you know, what am I doing here? It was really
kind of like the free money aspect of it, man they give you free money. So when you, but I, when
I got to St. Paul College, I understood, because all through my 20's I just lived off DJing and and
other extracurricular activities and some odd jobs here and there, but.. when I got to St. Paul
College, it kind of brought out a new era in myself. I found out that, wow, this is, you know, you
know, people are really becoming something through this collegiate experience. And I dove right
in with my, with no lifejacket, basically, so to speak, and try to do everything that I could on
campus. So whether that was student government or student organizations or joining this
committee or student ambassador, I mean, you name it, I did everything in the book practically
for St. Paul College. When I graduated St. Paul College, 2013, I took that same mentality, and I
brought it to Augsburg. I came to Augsburg and I took advantage of all the resources that I
could, here, you know, what I mean? You know, from the MSA (Muslim Student Association) to
ALAS (Augsburg Latin American Students) to starting my own organization Save The Kids,
Student Government, I mean, you name it, I jumped right in here. So, and I be, and I came here
studying to be a social worker and that's what I currently am, as a school social worker. So at
St. Paul College, I didn't actually know, even when I graduated, you know, there was this one
guy who came to the table there. I forgot the brothers name. He said, "You know, you should
come over and check out the social work program" I was like alright. So I did and, and one thing
led to another and that's what I decided to do with my career, with my life. So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:11
When did you graduate from Augsburg?
Reies Romero 6:32
2016.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:03
2016?
Reies Romero 7:37
Yeah man.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:38
Alright, nice. You've been working as a social worker in St. Paul schools?
Reies Romero 8:22
Yup, for a couple years now. Yeah -Esteban Perez Cortez 8:24
You like it?
Reies Romero 8:24
-- It took me, yeah, I love it, actually. I love that I made this decision. I love being a social
worker. Most social workers are not me, though. They're, they're, they're usually middle age,
heterosexual, white women, you know? It's rarely that you have social workers that are male,
Chicano, Muslim, hip hop heads, you know all in one. I mean, it's, it's really, rare. Even in my
graduating class, it was only four, four males, right here at Augsburg out of you know, 28 of us
or something like that, so. Changing that narrative on what a social worker is, know what I'm
saying? -Esteban Perez Cortez 9:11
What they can be.
Reies Romero 9:11
-- Yeah, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:15
So now we're going to be diving into a little bit more of the educator aspect of this -Reies Romero 9:20
Sure, let’s do it.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:21
-- So how do you, how would you define an education?
Reies Romero 9:25
Education, in the context of this country, should empower the learner. Empowerment. It's not
just a series of.. facts and historical references or knowledge that is not beneficial to the receiver
of that education. That's what we have to move forward, is empowerment, and equality.
Diversity doesn't mean equality right? Learning about Martin on one day, and all the president's
every other day, not necessarily empowering the learner, especially if you're a person of color,
right? So education is key to understanding you know, the knowledge of self. The knowledge of
others, the knowledge of who is against you, and who's not. Right? Who can you, who is your
allies, and, and it's instilled in the, in the psyche of, of students from grade school, right? We
have this, we have a Eurocentric point of education system here in America, or what is called
America, that, can be brainwashed into your psyche, right? Through the false ideology of white
supremacy, so. You have to, you know, really differentiate between what is beneficial for you
and not, I think that's, you know, the real purpose of education. You know, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:16
How would you, how would you define an educator then?
Reies Romero 11:19
Right. So an educator's someone that's truthful, that thinks outside the box that doesn't
necessarily follow textbooks that, that, that looks to, like I said that, that, that empowerment
piece, that looks to empower their students with knowledge that they can apply, that's
applicable, right? Knowledge, that you can't apply does really no good. The same concept in
Islam, too. And we'll probably get to that. But knowledge that is not applied is no good. How can
one use what the educator is giving them? How are they processing the information is the
educator, individualizing students understanding specific experiences, due to their cultural
background, their linguistic ability, all, everything should be, educators and teachers are the
heroes of the world, if they do it, right. But if they're damaging, more than hurt, you know, more
than helping, it's worse, right? Where they're just following a curriculum that was made by who
knows, right? So educators, you know, all the teachers, the teachers, at my school were white,
practically, right? White women, you know, what the hell do they know about the struggles of
African-Americans and, and Mexicans and immigrants and people from Southeast Asia? And,
and the Somali experience? I mean, they may eat Somali food, but they don't live this is
experience, right? So, educators have to, you know, really get their duckets in line.
Esteban Perez Cortez 13:09
Yeah, for sure thank you for that. Um, do you see yourself as an educator?
Reies Romero 13:14
I do, because I, you know, along with the principles of social work, right, so, social work, is
guided by principles, right, and ethics. One of those ethics is Social Justice , I'm always
advocating for social justice, you know, the, the, the right to be, you know, of the destiny of a
person, you gotta respect that, their right to determination of their, of their future, right? The
importance of human relationships as another social work as a piece, but I do consider myself
educator, because I teach hip hop history, right? And I'm always re-reading things, re-examining
things, re-understanding, re-talking to people that I get information from if like it's quotes, or
understand because along with hip hop teaching, you can get some false information in there
that someone, you know, made up, right? So you have to be very careful about where you get
your history lessons from. And you got to be kind of have to re-establish the truth all the time,
right? So and that, so with everything. I mean, you look back at, at historical references, how,
what is the validity of this, of your information that you're teaching others? I think that's very
important. You know, as an educator myself, especially when you're teaching hip hop history,
right? You don't want to just make stuff up, right? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:00
It's just me absorbing a lot of this, don't worry. I kind of forgot to go over this at the beginning -Reies Romero 15:06
Oh, oh my god.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:07
-- But so, you're Muslim, correct?
Reies Romero 15:09
Yes.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:10
Um, when, I think before you mentioned you're a convert or revert -Reies Romero 15:15
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:16
-- when did, when did that happened?
Reies Romero 15:19
It happened in November 2006.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:21
November 2006?
Reies Romero 15:22
Yep.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:22
Okay,
Reies Romero 15:23
So I don't know what is it, 2019 now? So, yep. I reverted to Islam in 2006. That's when I started
my journey as a Muslim.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:33
Do you usually prefer revert over convert?
Reies Romero 15:37
I, I don't care. I mean, it's not a big deal. Convert, revert you know -Esteban Perez Cortez 15:44
I've heard both being used and sometimes people would say like, I'm a revert or some would
say you know, I'm a convert. So -Reies Romero 15:50
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:51
-- thought I would ask before I said like you know anything.
Reies Romero 15:53
I don't make a big deal about small linguistic stuff, though.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:56
Do some people with terms like that? Sometimes?
Reies Romero 15:59
I guess I mean, you know? It, when you're using the revert term, it just really means reverting
back to your original state, of you know that, we were all created to worship the Creator. And
that's your original state. So you re, go back to that state, you know, when you accept Islam,
right, but convert or revert. Don't get hung up on the small things.
Esteban Perez Cortez 16:29
Yeah, interchangeable.
Reies Romero 16:31
Yeah. Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 16:32
Ok um, has your, has your religion changed your lifestyle?
Reies Romero 16:39
Oh, yeah. I mean, Islam is a lifestyle. It's not something that you do when you want to do it -Esteban Perez Cortez 16:45
Yeah.
Reies Romero 16:45
-- it's not something that, you just do on certain days, when you feel like it. There's set daily
duties. There's set daily rituals. You can't, it's 24/7, 365. There's no like, taking a break. Right?
Islam encompasses every aspect of your life. Of one's life if you, if you're a Muslim, and you're
actually observing the religion of Islam, or in Islam is called the "deen" (din) and deen translates
to religion in English, but it really means a way of life, right? So it's always at the forefront of my
lifestyle. Because you know, you really kind of shape your life, kind of around your prayers. And,
you know, your job has part of that, but you always got to figure out and you know, how you're
going to practice Islam in your specific environment and your experience. Does that make
sense? -Esteban Perez Cortez 17:55
Yeah.
Reies Romero 17:56
-- Yeah, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 18:01
Was, before you converted, was Islam present in your life a lot like either in the friends you had,
or schools, you went to, anything like that? How prevalent was it?
Reies Romero 18:15
It was very prevalent, because that's how, well hip hop brought me to Islam. I'm going to say
that honestly, the first references I ever heard about Allah (God), or Muhammad or Islam, was
through rap music. It wasn't like through like, talking to the Arab store owner, or whatever it may
be, right? So the first time I ever heard the word Allah was in a song by Rakim, 1986. I was like,
who is Allah, right? "All praise is due to Allah and that's a blessing." He said in, in a verse in one
of the song.s I was like, what what, who was he talking about? So that sparked some kind of
interest. Reading auto, the autobiography of Malcolm X, is another big influence. Growing up, I
had Muslim friends you know, more so in high school, that were Muslim, but they were also
gang members too. They're also Vice Lords, you know, and Vice Lords tend t,o tend to lean
towards, you know, a version of Islam that they kind of created that kind of came from the
Nation of Islam and kind of remixed it all up, right? Most references that you hear from hip hop
music, refers to the Nation of Islam (NOI), or the Five Percent Nation, Nation of Gods and
Earths, you know, those type of things. Because the Nation of Gods and Earths been there,
since the inception of hip hop, they did security for Kool Herc, so. Hearing those type of
references, you start to wonder what this is, right? Especially as a little kid, right? Listening to
rap music at 10 years old, 1986, right? I mean, I was, really got into hip hop since 83' (1983),
and up 83'-84', I mean just dived in, as a B-Boy (Break Boy), so. You know the era that, you
know, first hip hop was about partying, and having a good time. But then, somewhere along the
line, they became conscious, where you started to have MC's (Master of Ceremonies) talk about
real struggles and knowledge and, you know, lifestyles, so. And that's kind of that,, that brought
a whole lot of people that I know, that became Muslim, to Islam, is through rap, that's through
hip hop. So that's how it started for me. And, you know, I could brothers, Zubair and Musa and,
and (Unknown) and all kinds of brothers that I grew up with, that did hip hop too, they were
rappers, graffiti artists, breakers, something. DJ's had something to do with hip hop, but also
were Muslim, right? So, some came from the Nation (NOI), some went straight into what is
known as traditional Islam or Muslims that follow the Sunnah so, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 21:24
Are you, are you more of an educator or it can be both are you more, more of an educator in like
the hip hop community or in your, through the St. Paul Public schools, or is it equal with both?
Or what would you say?
Reies Romero 21:36
You know, when I joined Freedom School last year, you know, Freedom School's, is partly
funded by St. Paul Pubilc schools and the Children Defense Fund. So under that banner, you
would be an educator under SPPS (St. Paul Public Schools). But in the hip hop community, I'm
well equipped to teach, all kinds of things. History of DJ'ing, History of Hip Hop, History of
B-Boying and, you know. Know Your Rights training, because really, the elements of hip hop
are, are five there's actually around about 10 elements, but the five core elements, DJ'ing,
B-Boying, MC'ing, Graffiti and knowledge is the fifth element. Alright, so that's about education.
That's about knowing, knowing the ledge, get it? "Know-the-ledge", the "know-ledge". right? So
I'm always educating myself, getting educated myself by others, and then passing that
knowledge on. We're all educators in some capacity, right? But, formal classrooms, this can
happen in or it can happen non-traditional environments. Learning outside, learning in, learning
in the studio, you know, all kinds of things like that, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 21:42
Um, let's see. Was your expertise ever criticized for being a convert slash revert at all?
Reies Romero 23:10
What do you mean? Like?
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:14
I don't know if this, like if this could have happened or if it didn't happen for like, if you're
educating somebody about something in Islam -Reies Romero 23:23
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:24
-- And then they knew like you just you just recently converted, was that ever challenged like oh
you know -Reies Romero 23:29
Oh yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:30
-- you're wrong.
Reies Romero 23:30
Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:32
Yeah?
Reies Romero 23:32
Like this, cause like, it really just happens, it happens in Minnesota, mostly with Arabs and
Somalis. Where you know, the old Somali saying "Oh, my uncle's a sheikh." you know, and or,
or what does a you know, what does a Mexican revert know about Islam, right? So, that, that
has always that happened a lot. But you have to learn too like, Islam is based off of knowledge,
I mean, is a knowledge based religion, right? And it's, it's rooted in proofs, and what is called
(Arabic) right, and proofs. You have to have proof of the rituals of Islam, the practices, what
you're doing, who is Allah, what is the historic, you know, all these things, but yeah, that does
happen. As a revert, you get all that BS, man that "you don't know nothing." You don't get
returned Salaam's. People look at you crazy. That comes with the territory. I mean, that's, that
happens now. Like me as an Islamic resource group official speaker, when I show up to like
community education speakings where I'm going to do Islam 102, 101, you know, "everything
you know, like to know about Islam and Muslims.". I go to, you know, usually it's some kind of
librarian or someone, they're leading the community education, they say "Oh, are you here for
the, for the class?" I go "No, I'm the speaker" you know? And they look at me up and down,
because I don't, in the psyche of American, you know, I should have a turban on my head, I
should have a big long beard, I should have a big long white thobe or something like that. It's
flabbergasting to them that I show up as the speaker, does that make sense? With the way I
look and, you know, and the way I dress, it's just like, they can't believe it. But there's difference
between challenging someone and then kind of like insulting them, like if you if you really want
to help someone like a revert, it happens, like even now 13 years later, like if I go into a Masjid
(Mosque), and for instance, after, its after Asr, right, which is the afternoon prayer, according to
Hanafi Fiqh which is the Fiqh that I follow, there's no prayer after Asr until the sundown prayer.
Okay, so some old guy might say, you know, "You sat down brother before you made two
Rakats of Salat" you know and "You're supposed to pray before you sit down." you know,
something like that or they want to play footsie with me and and in, in the in the prayer rows,
"You have to touch your feet." and you know, just all kinds of things happen as a revert. Like,
just yesterday I was speaking out at Masjid Hamza on Prior Lake of all places, Prior Lake,
Minnesota. And it's like a mini road trip. Right? They have a Masjid out there. And a small
Muslim community. Nice Mosque. It was a it was a church two years ago though, it went from a
church to a Masjid. And we spoke to 60 students, me and another sister from (Unknown) about
Islam and Muslims. It was but you know, some of the the high school, they were high school
students, and they were like, what, you know, what is this guy? You know, this dude. So being
challenged happens all the time as a revert. It does. Right. So, I hope that answers your
question.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:27
Yeah. Not like completely fishing for answers, so it can always be a short one so don't worry. So
I was looking at before this interview was looking at some criticisms based off some studies
about like Muslim students in school -Reies Romero 27:42
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:43
-- There wasn't too many for here in Minnesota. Because what I'm seeing there, there's like a
lack thereof of Islam, I mean, Muslims in Minnesota -Reies Romero 27:51
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:52
-- So thus far. But some, there were some studies, you had, like Toronto, Belgium, the UK,
about like Muslim students -Reies Romero 28:01
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:02
-- So some of the criticisms in like, the schools, you have like missing Friday prayer. Because
the teachers would always say "Oh, you know, you can't keep missing Friday, for Friday prayer,
because you're going to keep missing the same subject, you're going to keep falling behind in
that subject, you're gonna fail the test." you know? So sometimes they'd be like, they'd be the
parents, not the parents, the teachers would make a big deal that he -Reies Romero 28:25
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:25
-- tells the parents about you know, your, your student can't miss this because they keep
missing it every Friday -Reies Romero 28:32
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:32
-- But they're like, no, it's a religious thing. And a lot of the time, there's, I don't think they're
really, really willing to accommodate or they don't know how to they like, just, you know, what,
what else should we do here? Another one of the issues was like mixed athletics, you had like
swimming. And then sex education was like a big one -Reies Romero 28:51
Yeah I know, I heard that one yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 28:52
-- So just kind of just wanted to see, have you had any, as an educator, have you had some
exposure to kind of these issues either? In anything?
Reies Romero 29:04
So, I'm glad you asked this, because this, I was on a panel recently, I think it was a week and a
half ago, or something at the, Challenging Islamophobia conference at Metro State put on by
CAIR (Council of American-Islamic Relations) okay? And we had a panel of educators, you
know, the, the topic was "How to support Muslim students in educational system", right? So I'm
not going to speak on like, Belgium, and all the other places and stuff cause, I don't have that
experience, so. You know, when you're working with Muslim students, especially when you're in
the elementary level, which which I am K-5 (Kindergarten through 5th Grade), things like, so we
got Ramadan coming up, right? So you want to share some resources with the teachers about
what Ramadan is, right? The teachers might, you know, have their, whatever they think it is,
right? But it's good to clarify things because you don't want people that are not Muslim and
educators assuming things about Islam and Muslims, when they don't have any clarification. It's
very important, we got to take back our own narrative as Muslims, so. We, you know, I brought
up some of the, you know, fourth and fifth graders are intending to fast as best they can, even
though they're not even actually required to fast. So the requirements of fasting is puberty for
boys and menstrual cycle for girls. The fifth graders, maybe there might be someone a girl, and
that might have menstrual cycle or a boy that's reaching puberty pretty early, right? But it usually
happens when they get the junior high. So, and they want to pray too, they may not even know
how to pray, but they want to do the motions, they want to do what they can. We have to
support that. We have to understand, you can't separate Islam from the person for eight hours a
day at school. "I'm gonna go to school and I'm not going to be Muslim.", No, it doesn't work like
that fam (Family). You gotta you have to, you know, support the students in what they need and
their specific ability on what they know and according to the level of faith that they have. Does
that make sense? Because you'll have sometimes born Muslims have no idea what they're
talking about. Right? But when you get to junior high and high school, it becomes a little more
complicated and how to support Muslim students. That's what we're talking about, right? Yeah.
So when you, when you reach those ages, where, where it's obligatory for you to pray, it's
mandatory for you to pray, then it really depends on the specific person's relationship with God.
With Allah, right? Are they going to observe their prayers? Are they not? Is it too embarrassing?
Is it too, is it, it's not cool, right? To pray. You'll be made fun of. You don't want to be looked at
as the Other and things like that. I mean, there's tremendous pressure, being a Muslim in the
educational system in America, right? Especially if you're black man, especially if you're, you
know, a person of color. You know, you're already -- I remember this one brother, who
converted to Islam, he was an African American. And he went home and he told his mom, he
was a speaker, I can't, I can't remember where I saw him speak. But anyways, he said, Mom, I,
you know, converted to Islam. And he was like, and she was like, "Son, you're black already.
Don't you think you have it bad enough?" You know, you know, so like. You know, here in
Minnesota, we want to do everything we can to support our Muslim students. So in their journey
with their relationship with the Creator, you know. They can't just stop being Muslim when they
go to school, right. That hijab don't come off. I mean, it comes off, but I'm saying, you know what
I mean? They can't just take it off, you know, like, a light switch on and off, so. So doing, you
know, small things, to educate the teachers, right? And the, and the staff. The teachers aren't
the only people in the child's life. Nutritionists are in their, janitors, gym teachers, science
teachers, you know. Understanding specific experiences with Muslim students and supporting
that. It's gonna, it's a journey. Because, you know, we have this separation of church and state,
right? Can't celebrate this, you can't do that, can't wear crosses, can't wear Yamakas, can't do,
you know. It depends on, from district to district what they are allow and school to school.
So it's complex -Esteban Perez Cortez 30:05
Okay.
Reies Romero 33:52
-- I hope that made sense.
Esteban Perez Cortez 34:07
Yeah, no. That definitely does, does make sense. Have you had students either in K through
five (K-5) or even like the hip hop community come up to you, due to issues of racism, and
Islamophobia in the school setting? Or personal lives?
Reies Romero 34:26
Yes, and no. And it doesn't really so happen -- Oh, man, there was a, conversation the other
day at lunch. You know, there was, I think four or five Muslim students, two Latino students,
Latinas were there. They were kind of having inter-religious conversations. But they're just, you
know, they're just kids, man, it doesn't get too complex with them, right? Where, even the
Muslim kid, right, said "Jesus is bad!". And I looked at him and I was like "Brother, where, you
know, where are you getting this from? Jesus is a prophet in Islam.". I'm thinking that's right, I'm
not telling I'm just kind of smiling at them. Like, oh, okay. You know, because they don't, they
don't know, at that point, you know, the inner workings in, and that the belief in Jesus is, is a
mandatory belief in Islam. If you don't believe in Prophet Jesus, that brings you out of the fold of
Islam, right? So, you know, this notion, you know, that little, students have, you know, K through
five, they're just going off kind of, what they've learned at home, or what they perceive as Islam,
things like that. You get older, you start to get more wisdom and integrity. And Islamophobia is
real, bro. It's a, it's a demonic machine that's fully funded by all kinds of people that'll want to
demonize Islam and Muslims. It's completely real. All right, look at, do the research on this
industry, because it is an industry, it's a business. And it's, it's funded by hundreds of millions of
dollars, okay. Instead of spending hundreds of millions of dollars on educating people, it's been
spent on demonizing people, alright? And, and whole belief systems, right, that has a 1.7 billion
adherence, like somehow they're all wrong, right? So, um, Islamophobia is something that's
damaging to not only Muslims, but everyone around us, right? Everyone here in Minnesota, in
this country, Western Hemisphere, don't matter where it is, right? I mean, you're not going to get
Islamophobia too much in Muslim countries, right? Because everyone Muslim, right? So, but it is
a serious threat to our safety here as Muslims, especially the sisters, because they're the crown
jewel of Islam, right? They are the number one sym, the hijab is the number one recognizable
symbol in Islam in the world, right? So, there's all, I mean, if you contact people like CAIR, and
who, who reports Islamophobia incidents, and it's, it could be harassing, it could be name
calling, you know. Students were being called a terrorist, girls, you know, we got to take those
reports seriously, too. Because it's, you know, the Islamophobia in schools in the form of
bullying, right? And bullying has got to be taken very seriously. So, there was that student who
killed himself, up in Osseo school district somewhere, from being bullied for being a Muslim, bro,
alright. Committed suicide, alright? So these type of things happen and we have to take them
seriously, no matter how small they are, because no matter how small that we got to have
restorative circles and restorative practices and in our school, you know. Suspending the, the,
whoever bullied someone or called someone a terrorist, ain't really going to solve the problem.
You know, why don't you go have lunch with the sister or brother, right? Get to know people.
Bind the hearts together, right. So yeah, I mean, it's very, very real, so. There was, in this, what I
mentioned before, in this Prior Lake visit, they had like four or five Muslim students in their class
that came to the Masjid. Masjid Hamza, so I was like, this is, you know, I didn't know there was
no Muslims out in Prior Lake, Minnesota, right. But do you have pockets of Muslim especially
Somalis in rural areas of Minnesota. Imagine what they go through on a daily basis. On their, on
their psyche. You know, look, stares, comments. God knows what, the city you're more
collected, right? You're more, you're more prone to critical thinking and understanding different
cultures, right? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 39:30
We'll just kind of quickly go over how, how has your or did your cultural identity impact your
religious identity? Or, or I guess the way I want to phrase it is, has your religious identity every
impacted your social identity, either at school or at work?
Reies Romero 39:49
And that's, that's a man, you want to be here for two more hours?
Esteban Perez Cortez 39:51
How about like a quick five minute answer for each?
Reies Romero 39:54
Yeah, I mean, it's, anybody that's been, is Muslim around the world has their own culture,
whether you're African, Asian, Subcontinent, Bosnian, Japanese, they're going to have their
elements of their traditional foods, dress, clothing, language, music, that's not going to like go
anywhere, right? Unless you're, you know, there's like, no monk in Islam either like, we don't just
retreat to hills, and, you know. Islam is something that you have to do with others, right? You
have to you have to be around others for it to work, so. Me being Chicano, me being, you know,
raised by hip hop, raised by street culture, raised by single parent. I make it work. I don't really
think about who thinks if I'm Muslim or not, how good of a Muslim I am, about other people,
right? Especially, you know, if you Somali and you, you know, you look at me crazy, I could care
less, right? Or you're Arab, and you, and you think you know it all, because, you know. You
think you know what's best about Islam? You know, I don't pay attention to, I'm too old for that
bullshit. So, like, I don't need to prove anything to anyone except myself and the Creator. Does
that makes sense, so. But things will clash, you know, with what is perceived to be, you know,
Mexican culture and Islam, right? Are Mexicans, just people that drink tequila and eat tacos and
smoke marijuana and build houses and work on cars? Are we defined that way? We're not. You
can't actually define Mexicans, right? You can't define Chicano, you can't define us and put us
into some box, right? I love who I am, right. I love being Chicano. I love being from New Mexico.
And I love Islam too. There's, there's nowhere in the world that says that can't happen
simultaneously, right? So I think that's how I'd answer that man, that other people see, may see
clashes, but I don't. And I'm the receiver of this, right. I'm the one that's living this experience.
So who cares what other people think, right? Just do you. Does that make sense? -Esteban Perez Cortez 40:12
Yeah.
Reies Romero 40:13
-- So, you don't, I don't have to prove how Mexican I am to others, to other Mexicans or other
people of Latin diaspora, right? I don't have to prove how Muslim I am to Muslims. I'm kind of in
a unique, very unique situation. Because if you look at how Mexicans were formed, they didn't
exist 500 years ago, in the sense that we are now. We were all indigenous, right? We didn't
have a Spanish colonizer, right? And that mixing of blood between African, Spanish and
indigenous blood, is what created this diaspora we have of, of Latinos, right? Of Mexicans. It's
really, there's no other, there's no other race on earth or group of people that were shaped like
us. Chicanos as Mexicans. If you look there's nothing, nothing like this ever happened anywhere
else in the history of humankind in the world. Okay, this, this mixture is very unique, very unique,
you know what I mean? So, that's how I would answer that. There's no clash within myself, you
know what I'm saying? So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 43:57
Yeah, like I said I wasn't fishing for like a long answer. But I mean, we're kind of reaching the
end, the end of the interview from here on --
Reies Romero 44:06
Sure. I appreciate you having me man, I'm glad that you picked me.
Esteban Perez Cortez 44:10
-- No worries. So you know what, what's next for you, now that you kind of, so you graduated
already, just recently. You're working in St. Paul Public Schools -Reies Romero 44:20
Three years ago.
Esteban Perez Cortez 44:20
-- Yeah. What, what's the future looking like for you?
Yeah.
Reies Romero 44:25
Just keep plugging away at my career at social, my social work career, my community activism,
the organizations I'm part of, try to make a difference. Hopefully I can get married here.
Inshallah, that means God willing. I don't know who the heck is going to be listening to this, but,
get married, maybe have a kid, I don't know, there's a lot on my plate. But just keep trying to
keep busy every day. I think that's what keeps me sane, that keeps me grounded. That service
of others, the service of my community, service of betterment of this world that we live in man,
because it's, it's unbalanced. You see what I'm saying? So it's not, we always, evil never sleeps,
so neither can we. Okay --- evil never sleeps. So we, the constant battle for social change and social justice and, ending
oppression is every day, all day. It's not something that we do just at protests, or Facebook
posts, or whatever it may be. It's all around us, right? So we, I that's what I concentrate on man.
How can, you know, what am I doing to better myself in my community? Right? And my
students that I serve, they don't serve me, I serve them, right? That's what a social worker is. I
don't, I can't solve their problems, I gotta be able to facilitate how they can solve their problems
on their own. That's a, that's a social work ethic, right? Like, I don't don't have all the answers,
you do. Right? The person that I serve does. That's the right to self determination, right? And
self empowerment. So, expanding on my career in trying to master this, this social work thing,
right? Become tenured. You know, maybe, I like staying in schools though. I think I'm going to
stay in schools for a while. I think that's where I had the most impact, because there's all kinds
of social workers Esteban, you know. There's clinical, there's the ones that do policy, there's
private practice, there's mental health, there's you know, elderly, social workers, where they,
you know, they do elderly populations and things like that, so. All kinds of social workers, but I
think I fit best in schools. You know what I mean? -Esteban Perez Cortez 46:50
Yeah.
Reies Romero 46:50
-- because it's already F'd up anyway, so you gotta change it, you know, try and change it within
somehow, someway, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 46:59
Okay, for sure. That's, that'll be the end of the interview. Do you have any final thoughts or
comments you'd like to say before we end?
Reies Romero 47:08
No, I just, thanks for having me and it's an honor. I'm glad you're getting out of here -Esteban Perez Cortez 47:14
Yeah.
Reies Romero 47:14
-- And moving on with your life. And I know, you got some great things ahead -Esteban Perez Cortez 47:16
Well it was my pleasure having you.
Reies Romero 47:18
-- and I'll support you, you know I'm saying?
Esteban Perez Cortez 47:21
Thank you.
Reies Romero 47:22
No problem.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here.
Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal... Show more
This transcript was exported on May 02, 2019 - view latest version here.
Sydney Baker:
00:01
All right. So, my name is Sydney Baker, and I'm interviewing
Preenon today. Uh, the topic is Muslims in Minnesota. So, let's
start off with an easy question. What is your favorite home
cooked meal?
Preenon Huq:
00:13
Um, so my favorite is chicken with rice. It sounds kind of basic,
but it's not just the regular like chicken with rice. Um, I don't
know the actual word for it because it's like a Ban-, a- a dish
from Bangladesh, but basically it's like almost the color of it is
like an orange, golden chicken, and it has sauce. Like a curry on
top of it. And then Porata is, my favorite for breakfast and that
goes with the chicken or you can do rice. But Porata's like a
bread. It's got like a lot of butter in it, inbetween like different
layers, to make it.
Preenon Huq:
00:49
I just cam back from Bangladesh and I had those everyday at
like 6am, which is like, ridiculous amount you know. But thatthat's definitely my favorite meal.
Sydney Baker:
00:57
Who makes it best?
Preenon Huq:
00:59
Um. Well, when I was in Bangladesh, like having it fresh, making
everything fresh, um... It's kinda weird when I was in
Bangladesh, they would say like, "Oh we made this dish for
you". But really like, there were servants there. And so those
servants were making the dish, right? And so like people would
say like, "Oh yeah so and so makes it best". But then you like, go
there and yo- they don't cook at all like, it was like their servant
that was making it. So it's not- I thought it was really interesting
that, you're kinda taking credit for it. They're obviously not
making anything.
Preenon Huq:
01:30
Um, my grandma's sister did. She like, put it on a pan and made
it. But when it came to like, rolling the actual dough and
everything, the servant did that. So like, both of them kinda did
do it but, really like, I think the servant does like all the work for
that.
Sydney Baker:
01:46
How often do you go back to Bangladesh?
Preenon Huq:
01:48
Uh, that was the first time going since I was like 2. I'm 22 now
so, you know 20 years and, I wanna go more frequently like,
now that I know what it's like, um... What kinda culture there is
and I wish I got to see more of like, how much it's changed and
developed over the last couple years, just because it's been so
dramatic, the changes. Like, my grandma was saying that when
she was growing up, poor people didn't even have clothes. Now
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you see them with cell phones and they're fully clothed and
everything. Like their whole life has changed, so much.
Sydney Baker:
02:19
Who do you stay with when you go?
Preenon Huq:
02:21
Um, because it was my first time going, but we stayed with my
grandma's sister. They live there half the year and then they live
in the US half the year.
Sydney Baker:
02:30
Very nice. Where did you go to high school?
Preenon Huq:
02:32
I went to Armstrong High School.
Sydney Baker:
02:34
Okay, uh what was your favorite subject and why?
Preenon Huq:
02:38
Oh, well, that's kind of a tough one I mean gym class is the best
like, but, in terms of actual subjects... I really liked economics,
um just because it's something that's always interested me. Like
paying attention to like how much the world is connected
financially, that's also something I've always been into when I
was a kid, is finances. But, yeah that was definitely my favorite
class. It wasn't necessarily the class I did the best in, but it
would- definitely was my favorite class.
Sydney Baker:
03:09
Uh, did you have any favorite teachers and what kind of an
impact did they have on you?
Preenon Huq:
03:13
Um, yeah there is this one teacher um, her name was Kaya
Peters. Now she's Kaya Herd. But she, was adopted and I think
originally she was from Korea, if I remember. But basically she
was my favorite just 'cause she really like, understood the
students and related to them a lot, which I appreciated a lot.
Preenon Huq:
03:36
Um, there's a teacher there, James Redelsheimer, after I
graduated me and him connected very well. A lot of us- me and
him have both like the same drive, we have a lot of the same
things in common and that's just something um, we just kind of
realized after um, I graduated. And so we have a really strong
relationship right now. Um, and I talk to him on- frequently on a
regular basis. I go back to his class and talk about like personal
finance, like how to pay off your student loans, those kinda
things.
Preenon Huq:
04:04
Um, that's something that I was successful in doing and so it's
really like, my way of giving back, to the community. And
especially like, it's nice being like a person of color to be able to
go into the classrooms and tell students like "Yes, you can go to
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college, and yes it is- you are able to work and be able to pay it
off. Not necessarily the case for everybody but like, based on
your situation you know... take advantage of what- what's given
to you".
Sydney Baker:
04:29
Were there a lot of people of color at your school?
Preenon Huq:
04:31
No. Um, there's definitely more now, like, every time I go back I
see more students of color. Um, there was students of color,
not to say that there wasn't any, there was. But, I wouldn't say
that they necessarily mixed a lot. Um, and then you always saw
like... sorry.
Sydney Baker:
04:50
That's okay.
Preenon Huq:
04:51
The students that are like coke you know and just- (laughing).
Um, but you always like see like, you know, students of color
were like, usually in the regular classes, where like you know, all
the white students were and AP classes. And I just- that was just
like something that I didn't really like you know, 'cause it just
felt like a different type of segregation.
Sydney Baker:
05:13
Mmm (affirmative).
Preenon Huq:
05:14
Um, and you know I just- it doesn't- like they would say like, "Oh
well these students are doing this and stuff in class", but like, I
mean I would say that were all like, you know the same, we all
have the capabilities and stuff so why, or what did those
students have that the other students of color didn't have?
Sydney Baker:
05:32
What was your friend group like?
Preenon Huq:
05:34
Uh, mainly white. Um, most of my friends are white, um. Like I
was- I remember one kid in like seventh grade said like, he slept
over at one of our other friends who's black, house and he was
like "that was the first time I ever slept over at somebody who's
black's house". Like, just kinda different I thought that was likethat- that stuck with me my whole life. You know, hearing that,
um... but all my friends, um, majority of them are white. I do
have a lot of friends that- of, um, that are- like of color. But
usually they're more in like the Bangalian community, or I, hang
out with them in like, different crowds and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
06:11
Um, I would say I was probably one of the most well-connected
students like, at my college. Sorry, my high school. And, so a lot
of people like- and maybe it helped too because I was a person
of color that they can connect well with me, but then also I hang
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out with a lot of students that are white. But it's not something
that I really thought about really. Like it honestly, like- I didn't
think about it much until I got to like college, then that's really
when I realized like wow you know my- my friend group was all
white people, you know, it's a whole different- it's a whole
different friend group and it's so different talking to them and
like what you can and what you can't talk about as well.
Sydney Baker:
06:49
And why was that, what was it about college that changed
things for you?
Preenon Huq:
06:51
Well, most of like my friends um, were, um, of asian
background. A lot of them were Hmong. Um, a lot of them came
from different groups and um, and also the schools that they
came from. A lot of them came from like intercity like, St. Paul,
North Minneapolis where it's dominated by um, people of color
or it's- there's more of a mix.
Preenon Huq:
07:14
First there's like, where I'm from the suburbs even like, another
school in our district was Cooper. That one had more students
of color and you would hear like, about how different it was.
Um, based on like that, where like a- at the same thing, lot of
the IB kids were students that where white, but the regular
classes were a lot of students of color. And so, that's wherethat's where the difference really comes and you know, just
hearing everybody's story and like, they're just so used to
having everybody and a lot of them actually had really different
opinions and situations with people who are white.
Preenon Huq:
07:49
Where I had the complete opposite, you know. And even like
my friends who were of color, they didn't really talk about the
things about like, you know, oppression, racism, segregation. I
mean you hear it every now and then but you just really didn't
feel it until I got to college an then everybody's talking about it,
and then you realize like wow, okay, now I see. I'm more open
and aware of every- all of that.
Sydney Baker:
08:15
Mm-hmm (Affirmative). Did you ever have your friends over, to
your house in high school?
Preenon Huq:
08:18
Yeah, but not- not often. You know, my m- my mom was like,
she didn't really like having friends over. Not like that- it was
because of like, that they're white or anything like that, they
just- she just preferred not to. So usually I would like, go to their
houses.
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Sydney Baker:
08:33
Mm-hmm (affirmative). What were some of their reactions
when they would come over for the first time?
Preenon Huq:
08:37
Um. I think a lot of them, were just- like it was different, my- my
house smells different, you know. The food smells different so, I
think that was pretty surprising. Also like, just like the artwork in
my house, like I was showing you, my mom's got like a lot of art
um, my mom's like an artist and so she's got like a lot of
paintings and um, just like her taste too is- is very different
from, it's not quite the same as like when you open up a
magazine and you're look- you're like looking and what's trends
are in 2018, 2019. It's very unique to her personality and if you
go in to a lot of people who are like also muslim like, people
who are Arab, um Somale, African, and then people from Asia,
like a lot of their houses will look similar to our house.
Sydney Baker:
09:21
Did you have any muslim friends?
Preenon Huq:
09:23
Um. Honestly, at college, or I mean at high school no I don't
think so. I have like- trying to think maybe one or two. But not
really. I mean every now and then I would see like another
student at my high school at the mosque and then I'd be like,
"Oh okay As-Salam-u-Alaikum" like I didn't even know that
they're family was muslim. So that was kinda cool but in terms
of like, talking about being muslim and stuff, no. I definitely did
not have that.
Sydney Baker:
09:55
Was that a conversation that you would have with people when
you first met them?
Preenon Huq:
09:58
Uh, no (laughing). That's definitely not something you just bring
up. Now that I'm like older yes for sure, like it's so much easier
to talk about it and stuff. But after like post 9/11 like that's
definitely something you did not wanna talk about. Students
that- they don't really know what's going on or what they arethey've affiliated Islam with terrorism and you just don't wanna
like, bring that up in those situations and stuff. Which is
unfortunate right? Like I mean, nobody should have to go
through that and, everybody should be able to express their
religion freely. So that- that's kinda disappointing you know I
wish that- that's something that I was able to do is, you know,
talk about my cultures and talk about like um, my religion and
be kinda more proud of like the religion that I am. I think that,
you know, 9/11 really robbed me personally of that um, from
like, from- when I was growing up.
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Sydney Baker:
10:47
Did you ever have any like specific bad experiences in high
school, when people found out that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
10:53
Um, I mean like, every- I mean people have kinda joked about
like terrorism and- and Islam and stuff and like that you just
kinda like have to tell them like, "Oh you know that's- that's
unacceptable" or you know like, "Hey it's not like that" you
know. And that's hard because, you know, I think that they
realize it but then you know, at the same time they've known
you for a while so then they think it's okay. Most of the time
that I've ever had that conversation, I mean I had that
conversation a couple years ago with somebody that I was really
close with, and you know, they apologized and they were sorry,
you know. They- they didn't realize you know.
Preenon Huq:
11:31
I think that a lot of people well they're- they're kinda stuck in
their ways right? And so I always give the benefit of the doubt
at first. I'm usually a person, I'll let like one slide. But then I
kinda let you know and if I- if you do it again then it's kinda like,
okay were-were this isn't gonna work for me. And um, I'm sorry
but this is you know like- if you're not gonna respect my views
and who I am as a person and also my religion, and that's
something that's like just- you can't really- you shouldn't be
joking about and if you don't understand that after one person
tells you, especially somebody so close to you, I think that it's
best if were not together you know.
Sydney Baker:
12:06
Mm-hmm (affirmative)
Preenon Huq:
12:08
Like, I- I mean, that's kinda one thing about me is that,
especially growing up in like a white neighborhood, you have toyou have to like educate people and you have to give them the
benefit of the doubt. And, that's something that a lot of people
don't wanna do and I understand why they don't want to. You
know they've had, um, so many situations where white people
have gotten away with a lot of things. And I totally agree with
that, but then at the same time it's like, I live in this
neighborhood, I grew up with these people, I know this is thethis is the life that I'm gonna be living. And so, it's best you
know, if I give them the opportunity to learn and grow,
especially young people you know.
Preenon Huq:
12:46
Like, some people they have no idea what they're talking about
you know, they're- they're saying things just because they hear
it from the news or somewhere else. Kids and stuff and so then I
educate them and I've had mainly positive reactions towards
everybody, especially parents too. They're always wanting to
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learn more about my culture and my family. Which I like a lot
and I appreciate that a lot. And it's nice because you know, in
the future, um, they will have a positive- hopefully they'll have a
positive experience with other people from my community and
my culture as well.
Preenon Huq:
13:19
But that's also like a lot of pressure right? You know that'sthat's a lot of weight on your shoulders, you're representing
your own community, 24/7 and you're the only person. And
that's so hard because people ask me like, "What do you think
about Islam and what do you think about you know, this and
what does your family do and that", and I'm just like, "My
family's not that religious", I shouldn't be the one representing
all of Islam for this whole community in Plymouth. And, that's
one thing that I've- I've found, you know, really difficult because
sure I wanna learn more about Islam and I wanna learn and be
able to- to share that with others. But at the same time like, I'mI'm not an expert. I probably will never be an expert so I'm not
the person that they should be asking. And that's- and I was
telling Esteban last week, that you know, everybody in Islam,
you could- somebody who practices, um Islam that's S-SSomali, and then somebody who's from Bangladesh, I mean
there could be completely different in terms of their religion.
Sydney Baker:
14:17
And so you said that your family is pretty non-traditional?
Preenon Huq:
14:22
Yeah, were non-traditional. I would say- I mean, my- our family
um, you know, we- we don't pray five times a day, uh, we
definitely celebrate Eid which is twice a year, once at the end of
Ramadan, my family fasts for Ramadan. We do all of those
things. In terms of- I think that's like kind of the big one. My
mom doesn't wear a hijab or anything, um so that's- that's you
know, that kinda gives you an idea of what our family is like.
Sydney Baker:
14:52
Do you think that they moved to this community because
they're non-traditional or do you think that they're nontraditional because they moved here?
Preenon Huq:
14:59
Uh, no, um. I think moving to the US has like made us nontraditional or a little bit more. I don't think my parents really- uh
maybe my mom did, but I really don't think that neither of them
really grew up in that traditional uh, very strict Islamic um,
religion. And I think that makes a huge difference and then also
like living in this community, I wouldn't say that, that's made
much of a difference, because I see all the other uh, Bangali kids
and their families also grew up also in white neighborhoods. It's
actually very common for all the Bangali kids to live in suburban
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white neighborhoods like all of us growing up we all lived in
similar neighborhoods. Um, which is really interesting as well.
Sydney Baker:
15:43
Why is that?
Preenon Huq:
15:44
I think a school, you know education's number one, super
important. Um, my dad- originally we lived in Crystal, my sister
went to New Hope Elementary and uh, one of the students
called the teacher a really bad name and my sister went home
and told my dad what happened and he like moved her out of
that school, and put her in private school. So she- she actually
went to a Christian school, a Catholic school. I went to a catholic
school for a year- two years, but I think my sister went for four
and my other sister went for almost six or seven. So- (laughing)
that was a really big change for us you know, going to a catholic
school, private school. Um, and then we eventually moved over
to Plymouth, where the school districts are really well- are
good. So we could go to the public schools.
Sydney Baker:
16:36
What was your experience like at the Catholic school?
Preenon Huq:
16:38
Well you just really don't realize what's like happening right?
Like, I mean I don't really- like I remember getting like, the
cross, um and then we'd have like, the beads. And I don't- I can't
even remember what that was for really, during prayer time.
Um, and then my neighbors across the street, they're really
religious catholic. Um, and I would go over there all the time for
dinner and we'd pray before dinner. And I would just pray the
same way as them. So, just in a way like I felt like- and then, a
lot of my friends, they took me to church growing up. So I felt
like I was so like- almost growing up like Christian in a sense but
obviously not fully growing up with Christian. I just learned a lot
about like um, being Christian from those different situations
that I had in life and events.
Sydney Baker:
17:26
So you used to live in England too?
Preenon Huq:
17:28
Uh, well I like, was born there, moved here when I was like one.
So I've been here my whole life. And then we go back and visit
pretty frequently. Usually try to go once a year um, once every
two years.
Sydney Baker:
17:41
How does it compare to Minnesota?
Preenon Huq:
17:43
Oh, it's so different (laughing). It's just like big city. Kinda like
New York. Public transportation and people are focused on
themselves, moving really fast. Um, so much to do like lots of
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um, fun things. The Isla- Islamic community's huge there. Um,
lots of people who are Indian and Bangladeshi. So that's nice as
well.
Sydney Baker:
18:04
Would you say that it's more diverse there than it is here?
Preenon Huq:
18:07
Absolutely, for sure. Um. If you're comparing like New York to
uh, London, then th- i would say probably New York's kinda momore diverse. But it's hard to say, I mean London is so diverse
these days. It's completely changed over the last, you know, 20
years. And here like, it's- it's gotten a lot better like, my sister
she's nine and I can just tell by the names of all the students
that are in the class, like, how diverse it is you know. It's not like
'John' and- and 'Megan' and 'Marissa' that are in here class like
it's- it's all these different names that are very unique, of all
different backgrounds. And a lot of her friends are from
different backgrounds and we see them like- which I think is so
cool you know. Just 'cause, that definitely wasn't the case when
I was growing up.
Sydney Baker:
18:58
Did you ever bring any of your friends to the mosque with you?
Preenon Huq:
19:02
Uh yeah, I brought a couple of friends here and there. Um, even
one of my co-workers last year, he was about the same age as
me. He actually fasted for Ramadan. So that was really cool and
he was Jewish and so that was really interesting you know
because, obviously with like all like the things that go on it's- it's
crazy that around the world there's so much conflict, and then
you know, in the US like, you s- you see like muslims and Jewish
people you know, fasting together for Ramadan. Just
completely different, you know.
Preenon Huq:
19:31
And, I have brought a couple of friends to the mosque. I've
brought a couple friends like Bengali parties and um, brought
them to events and stuff and they- they enjoyed- it's definitely a
different um- it's something that they would never get, you
know else where like- recently one of my best friends, my room
mate from college came to Bangladesh with me. So that was
pretty amazing I mean, you know, he's a 6'4", white, American
and in a country that the average height is 5'6". And no one,
who's not from there goes and visits that country. So that was
like super cool I mean he stood out like crazy. But he had a great
time.
Sydney Baker:
20:09
Where's home for you?
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Preenon Huq:
20:10
Uh, Minnesota for sure. You know this feels like home. I know
like, Plymouth, Minnesota specifically. Like I know so many
people here, my friends, my family, the community members.
You know, being involved with school makes me even more
connected. Um, this is definitely my home. I- I don't think I ever
go anywhere without seeing somebody I know and I actually
love that you know, it's just nice to always know that there's
somebody there that you know.
Sydney Baker:
20:50
Could you reflect on a time that you may have felt discriminated
against for being muslim?
Preenon Huq:
20:59
Um... definitely like post 9/11. You know like telling kids at
school that I was like muslim you know not knowing like- that
like it was like muslims. But I wouldn't even call them muslims
that- that did the terrorist attack that represented and said that
they were muslims and then like everything with the Iraq war
and stuff. I don't remember like specifically, I just remember
going to school and telling kids like, "Oh yeah, I'm muslim" and
they'd be like, "Are you a terrorist?" You know and just kinda
giving me like- like, "No, no I'm not".
Preenon Huq:
21:35
And it's just hard to understand why they would like, think that
way. Or why they would affiliate those two just because, you
know there's so much terrorism n- not too long ago, with like
KKK members and they represent- they say that they represent
Christianity but nobody says like, "Oh yeah like KKK and
Christiani- or Christians are terrorists". You know, they don't
ever put those two together. So it's hard for me to understand
you know, why are you saying that muslims and terrorism go
together. And you know, that's the thing is that religion doesn't
and terrorism doesn't go together. So, that was really hard
growing up. And then I just stopped telling kids that I was
muslim.
Sydney Baker:
22:16
What are some positive experiences that you had?
Preenon Huq:
22:24
Um. I just think like, I- I don't really know like specifically in the
sense of like, situations where I'm- like the one- two years ago
when my co-worker, wanted to like spend- you know,
participate in Ramadan. That was super big and that was
awesome. I don't really like, blame people from my high school
that didn't participate because I didn't really share that I was
muslim.
Preenon Huq:
22:49
I mean, even my best friend from like, seventh grade I
remember- I think we were like in eleventh grade in the
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summer and I was like, uh- we were trying to find something to
eat and I was like, "Do you got anything?" And he's like, "Yeah
we have pizza rolls", and I was like, "Oh what kinda are they?"
And he's like, "Pepperoni", and I was like "Oh I can't eat those",
and he's like, "You can't even taste the pepperoni- barely you
can taste it", and I was like, "Well I don't eat- I don't eat
pepperoni because I don't like it, it's because I'm muslim and I
can't ". And he was like, "What?". So like, I don't know if he
forgot or if he just didn't know.
Preenon Huq:
23:22
But it was like, you know, a big moment and kind of a shock
because we- and then- and then he remembered you know,
like, "Oh okay". And so, he was like, "Oh I just always thought
you didn't like pepperoni", 'cause he'd always see me like take
the pepperoni off- his parents like ordered Jet's Pizza every two
weeks. And so all the time I was over there, id always like take it
off and stuff. So that's probably why he kinda thought that I just
didn't like it.
Sydney Baker:
23:47
Did his parents know that you were muslim?
Preenon Huq:
23:49
I don't know honestly I can't- I'm not sure if they did or not.
That's like another thing you know, a lot of like muslims, I mean
like, the- the level of pork is huge and you'll see that like there's
people who will not touch pork. Um, not my boss now but my
previous boss was muslim and he wouldn't touch alcohol. I
mean if he- it doesn't matter if it's a- in the bottle, if it's in the
case, you try to hand him a bottle he will not touch it. Same
thing with pork. When he's at the grocery store he won't you
know, touch it, nothing.
Preenon Huq:
24:17
Uh, then there's people you know like, they open up a pizza,
they'll see it's pork, they'll shut it and they'll be like "Okay, I'm
not having any". And then there's like me, who I'm just like, I
feel like that's gonna go to waste, you know, whoever ordered it
didn't realize that I- you know, didn't ask ahead of time and as
long as it's not like baked into the cheese where like to the
point where I can't get it out, I will always like just take it off,
and eat the pizza. And that's definitely very different from other
people. And I just do that because like, I don't wanna waste it,
you know but if the choice comes, I'll just tell them, like "Oh, no
I- you know, can you order a cheese pizza for me?". And, that's
usually how it goes. And nobody like makes me pay extra or
anything you know, to order my own pizza. I always offer to buy
it you know cos, they have to order a whole 'nother pizza
usually for me.
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Sydney Baker:
25:16
So what do you like more about living in Minnesota, than you
do about living in England? [crosstalk 00:25:22] Or are you just
spending time in England?
Preenon Huq:
25:23
I just like how small it is in- in Minnesota like, no matter where
you are, it's- it's kinda like Augsburg. Like, in versus going to the
[inaudible 00:25:33] you know you can go to the [inaudible
00:25:35] and you can do a lot of stuff and there's a lot of
opportunity and you can make a big change and everything.
But, it's hard to like, get known on campus, it's hard to like,
make a difference, it's hard to like, get the resources that you
want. Um, where like, in Augsburg you know, if you try really
hard, you can become known on campus, you can work with
others. There is- they're smaller but they- they do make a huge
impact and I just feel like that's how Minnesota is versus
London right.
Preenon Huq:
25:58
If I work really hard in Minnesota, I feel like anything is possible.
It's small enough where I can get connected in different
communities. Everybody kinda knows everybody in a sense um,
from their hometown and stuff and that's just not the case in
London. London's way too big. And so like, you can kind of like
the express- the expression is like, you can be like a shark in a
pond or you can be like, you know, a fish in the ocean like- and I
just rather be like, well known and well connected and have
opportunity for myself and others as well and, it's kinda cool
'cause like, anything I put my mind to I feel like, there's a way I
know somebody connected well that I can make an impact in a
small or big community if I want to. Just like it- it's very endless,
the opportunities.
Sydney Baker:
26:45
Do you have family in England?
Preenon Huq:
26:46
Yeah, like all my dad's uh, side lives there, my cousins live there.
Um, and their kids and everything so yeah, there is a lot of
people there.
Sydney Baker:
26:54
Why England?
Preenon Huq:
26:56
Um, my grandpa was part of the Bangladesh Embassy I think it
was, and then he moved there and then obviously took my dad
and all of his siblings to England. And then my dad uh, lived
there ever since he was eight. And then, lived there up until he
was about- I think he was about 30 or 35 or 36. So almost 30
years.
Sydney Baker:
27:20
And so then why did he choose to come to Minnesota?
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Preenon Huq:
27:23
Job opportunities. I think that my mom and him visited um, the
US a few times and it just you know, they wanted to see like,
the land of opportunity and just kinda see what it was like and
they end up moving here and my dad was doing consulting so
he was all over the country. And then um, they just happened
to stop in Minnesota for a little bit. And then the plan was to
move somewhere else but then they ended up like, staying in
Minnesota all of a sudden enrolled in school and then, we've
been here ever since.
Sydney Baker:
27:50
Did they meet in England?
Preenon Huq:
27:51
Uh my parents had an arranged marriage so like, I think my dad
went to Bangladesh and then like, met my mom. And I think like
it was like my mom's- my dad's cousin um, knew my mom's
brother's wife. Like something like that. And so they met like
one time and then they got married. So very different.
Sydney Baker:
28:16
Mm-hmm (affirmative). Okay. We've already talked about
which place you prefer, um... I guess one big question that I
have, and this can be in your own words but, what does being a
muslim in Minnesota mean to you, personally?
Preenon Huq:
28:43
Um. It's- It's... that's a hard question (laughing) you know
'cause, it's so different and especially like for somebody who is
not very religious. That's something that I would like to do is get
more involved with like the community and like the mosque.
Um, there's one mosque in Plymouth and there's like all these
different mosque's all over the- the Twin Cities and I was
actually recently saying to somebody else like, we should have
only one or two mosque's or maybe three at most, in the
different corners of the state of Minnesota. And they should be
like, really nice and big and just reflect like our culture and what
we represent and stuff.
Preenon Huq:
29:20
Because, the mosque in Plymouth was like an old post office
that was converted into a mosque and it looks okay. And like a
lot of the- a lot of the other mosque's are kinda like that, they're
converted um, old buildings and I just think that we- we can do
better in a sense. You know, we can make it a community space,
we can add a gym, we could make it a place where like, anybody
in the community you know, whether you're muslim or not
muslim but like almost more like a community center and then
also have the mosque connected. I think that would be like,
kinda my overall goal or what I would like to see. Um, obviously
that's like just way down the road that's gonna take a lot of
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effort. I mean, but like, one day that's what's something I would
love to do and see myself doing.
Preenon Huq:
30:05
But for the time being, you know, just participating in like
Ramadan um, like, if- I haven't read the Quran. That's
something that I wanna do. If like, one of- somebody else like
some of my Bengali friends or something wanna like, do that I
would definitely be open to doing that. Um, maybe like, little bit
later down the road 'cause I think that's another thing that a lotyou'll realize that a lot of muslims become more religious as
they get older. Especially the ones that were born in the US,
have definitely seen that as they get older, they become more
religious and more involved with the community. And so that'sthat's probably where I'll end up as well.
Preenon Huq:
30:44
I mean, if I could, I would love to get the fundraising and build a
mosque, definitely the way that I would like to see it, you know.
I was talking to the- the person I was talking to, he said you
know, "That's just not really practical", because peop- muslims
pray five times a day and no one wants to drive from you know,
if they're living in Coon Rapids they're not gonna drive to
Plymouth to go to the mosque. So that's why I was saying that,
if we could have three or four different corners of the cities, so
then they're still easily accessible, you know, it could definitely
be possible.
Sydney Baker:
31:16
How do you think the community of Plymouth would react to
something like that?
Preenon Huq:
31:20
So that's tough. You know that's like another thing that's hard.
Like, I think that there was lot of backlash for building that
mosque originally in Plymouth. Also like in different areas. Um, I
remember they wanted to build a mosque a long time ago near
the 9/11 site in New York and you know there's a lot of backlash
for that too. But, I think that like, you know, every year get's
better, every year's changing, more people are becoming open
and I think that you know, just showing the positiv- positivity in
the community makes a difference you know.
Preenon Huq:
31:52
Offering like 'Welcome all neighbors', 'Welcome everybody' and
show that, and do good in the community, whatever needs to
be done, helping out, volunteer, and you just- that's the hardest
part right? You know, you're going against some- a group and
people that don't like you, but that's what you have to do. You
have to show them the kindness, and that's the hardest thing.
You know, that's one of the things about me that I think a lot of
people appreciate. You know, whether you like me or not I'm
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gonna be the same person no matter what. And, a lot of people
ask me how I do it and it's just like, I really think that, that's how
it should be like, I should be putting in like, the good that I
wanna see in the world, the change that I wanna see and if that
means you know, everyday like, somebody tries to shoot you
down and like put- and try to get rid of you that's- that's when
you have to push even harder, that's when you have to you
know, show them that no matter what you do, I'm gonna be a
good person, I'm gonna be this true person I am.
Preenon Huq:
32:50
And that's the type of community we're gonna be you know,
because that's what a community does. They take care of
everybody, whether you're you know, spray painting the
mosque, well we'll just repaint it you know. We'll take care of it,
we're gonna- that's our community and you're just destroying
your own community. But at the end of the day, we're- we're
gonna do everything possible that we can to make it a better
place.
Sydney Baker:
33:13
Well, those are all of the questions that I have for you um, is
there anything else that you wanna talk about?
Preenon Huq:
33:19
Um. I mean like, one thing that I was kinda like thinking about is,
just like also, um... I don't know how to put this like, what my
life would be like if I grew up with more muslims in the different
communities 'cause I think that a lot of people in like, New York
or like Texas where like we know a lot of other Bengali's and
stuff, or if all the Bengali's lived in one ar- area, um. Like there's
a lot- the Jewish community lives in Hopkins or St. Louis Park, a
lot of people know that and I just wonder if that's- that would
be better. You know, I wonder if that would be easier to you
know, create organization or having a muslim community and
then also educating people. Would that work out better? Or is it
better for us to be separated? But then it kinda goes back to
like, what I was saying earlier about how you're representing
your entire community. You know, if you're just in one spot,
then maybe you get too comfortable. And that was the thing
that I was thinking about with a lot of my friends who are
Hmong, when I'm talking to them and like, a lot of them might
not have the most positive um, interactions with people who
are white. You know, because they're so used to spending time
with people who are Hmong and their community and therethere's enough Hmong people where they almost don't have to
interact with anybody who is- who is not Hmong. Like they- I
mean they can go to the car dealer ships and they can see you
know, people that they're Hmong they can go to their favorite
stores and everything and find people that are the same. Where
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I just don't have that you know, ability. So I really wonder you
know, how different would my life be. Same with like the even
the Indian community, a lot of them live in Plymouth and Maple
Grove. I see a lot of them living um, I see a lot of them at Life
Time Fitness, the Hindu temple is in Maple Grove, you know
what- what that lifestyle is like, is it easier for their kids to go to
school and talk about their religion and talk about where they're
from and their background and stuff because there's so many of
them. You know they always say that there's like safety in
numbers, you know. So that's- that's one thing that I was really
interested in, you know, thinking about.
Sydney Baker:
35:23
Do you know if your sisters ever struggled in school?
Preenon Huq:
35:26
It's hard to say like, that's- my family, we don't really talk about
that kinda stuff. We- we just don't like and um, even when
we're having problems and stuff that's not the type of family
that we are. We don't really communicate with hose things. But
I'm sure that they've gone through it or if not worse. You know,
because obviously they're older and things have only gotten
better.
Sydney Baker:
35:51
Perfect. Well thank you so much for being interviewed.
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Show less
Abby Mulcahey 0:01
Um, so what is your name?
Muna Galbayte 0:19
My name is Muna Galbayte.
Abby Mulcahey 0:38
Okay, um, tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
Muna Galbayte 0:45
I grew up in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. It's about half an hour away from Minneapolis. It's
... Show more
Abby Mulcahey 0:01
Um, so what is your name?
Muna Galbayte 0:19
My name is Muna Galbayte.
Abby Mulcahey 0:38
Okay, um, tell me a little bit about where you grew up.
Muna Galbayte 0:45
I grew up in Eden Prairie, Minnesota. It's about half an hour away from Minneapolis. It's
a pretty big suburb. It's a white majority suburb. It was a pretty nice place to grow up if
you're not Somali, but I am. So, it was... there were a lot of stereotypes that people have
about Somali people. And like growing up in a space where we weren't the majority, it
was kind of rough, but I guess I got through it by kind of just assimilating to the max.
And that was essentially my entire time there. Other than, like, the problematic bits, it's a
really nice place to grow up. Once you get to know the people and once you feel like
you're part of the community, and that's eventually when I got to when I got into high
school.
I felt a lot more accepted. And people were a lot cooler about, you know, like, "people
have a different race," you know?
Abby Mulcahey 1:09
What were some of the challenges of growing up there?
Muna Galbayte 1:12
Um, not being white was a big one and also being Muslim. And also having immigrant
parents. You know, it was
interesting that it would be a struggle growing up anywhere. So I'm not sure to call Eden
Prairie out and say it was like a bad place to live. Like, no matter where I would have
lived, I would have faced the same things because no matter how progressive you think
America is, if you fall into those categories, there's going to be a lot more scrutiny. And
there was, I felt like the entire time I was representing the entire country of Somalia, like
every... like I had to be the spokesman for an entire nation for entire like ethnic group
and that really takes a toll on your mental health... feeling like you always have to be
perfect
Or else you're the reason someone's going to be racist. You know? It's just never really a
good feeling. But yeah, being a black Muslim woman whose a daughter of immigrants is
going to be hard anywhere. I know it's hard in Eden Prairie.
Abby Mulcahey 2:18
So tell me a little bit about growing up and just your life.
Muna Galbayte 2:23
Prior to Augsburg?
Abby Mulcahey 2:25
Yeah. Or even in Augsburg. Just your life.
Muna Galbayte 2:31
Okay. Um, well, I grew up in the city of Eden Prairie, as I said before. I grew up with my
parents. I have six siblings, three older half siblings and three younger whole siblings, or
whatever, but we don't really make a difference in culture and you know a sibling's a
sibling. And so I'm the middle child, which is always a fun thing.
Um, yeah, so we grew up... lived
in the same house my entire life, or at least the entire life that I've known. I knew we
lived in Minneapolis for around two years of my life... the first two years of my life? And
then we moved to Eden Prairie.
I went to all of the Eden Prairie schools, and um growing up, it was always a struggle
between like my American identity and my Somali identity. And one of the biggest ways
that I like, saw that I guess, was in my fluency in Somali, like when I was younger, I had
freakin great Somali, you know, like, I would talk to my parents, blah blah blah. Like
they really did push English, obviously, because you know, we're in America, everyone
speaks English. I was born in America. So like, that was kind of my first language but
Somali, like... I just grew up speaking it and around third grade um
teachers just did
not like that. They did not... the school I went to, *can't make out audio*, was notorius
for
just like the way they treated students of color. We actually had this whole thing we had
to segregate... our school was very segregated. So a lot of Somali kids ended up there and
they had to change the district lines in order to fix that, and it was this huge thing and
the superintendent got let go. It was it was crazy. But yeah, there's a very anti
anything non American sentiment there. So um
I didn't end up speaking Somalia as much and we spoke English at home. So I just kind
of slowly lost it. And um
that's, that's what I see. That's like the pinnacle, kind of of my struggle between like, the
two sides of my identity, I guess. Because I'm not just American. I'm Somali American.
Whether I make that distinction, other people will so I just do it myself.
Yeah,
So that's why I'm kind of like my formative years where it was a lot of
shoving kind of like apple pie down my throat like forcing me to assimilate. And I found
that it was easier to do that. So that's kind of what I went with. And, you know, like,
when I talk about things that my family does, like the people like are just like, wow, this
is like, like, I guess we're kind of like the ideal like, it immigrant family or whatever.
Because like, you know, like, for every fourth of July weekend, we'll go camping. And we
would go to like, *can't make out audio* things and just like, like, we have gotten really
good at assimilating, just because that makes life easier. And that's what we're all about
here. I'm just trying not to make waves and it's fun, but it also... um
it's a struggle at times because... because I wanted to assimilate, I didn't really have much,
many interactions with a lot of other Somali youth which
I really regret especially during my high school years, I had almost all like all of my
friends were white, or
like, just people of color who weren't Somali, because at my high school especially it was
it was really disgusting the way that people would like, treat people who were be like...
who were me. I don't I don't know how to say it another way. Like, I have this really
clear memory of ninth grade. It was during lunch. I was sitting with this girl named
Allison Harris, and Mike something or whatever. And I just remember Allison Harris
because she was a fucking bitch, right? And so we were sitting and this group of Somalia
girls walked in and they're just like talking or whatever. And like, She's like, well, Somali
trolley or something like that. And I was like, I'm Somali, Allison. And she's like, no, like,
you're different. That was like something that I really
Like that was the big thing. But like, I'm like, other Somali people suck, but you know,
like, you're different. Like you're feeling like you're just not like those people. And it's
such an infuriating thing to hear. So we weren't friends after that. Oh, yeah. It was just I
didn't want to be friends with someone who subsequently didn't respect me or respect my
culture.
But the thing is, when I was younger, I kind of leaned into it because it just made life
easier. I was just like, okay, and I'm different or whatever. But what I've come to realize
that but I'm glad that I realized this. I'm not I'm, I'm 100%. Somali. And I'm really proud
to say that and it just, it really breaks my heart knowing, like, how many... how different
my friend who could have been how different my experience could have been, and I'm
really glad that
it's different in college. I've made a lot more Somali friends I feel like a lot. It's just it's
such a nice feeling being connected to your culture, and like
especially living in Cedar-Riverside. You know, it's like, like, I'll go down the street.
There's an African grocery mart. And like, there's so many just like, Somali restaurants
that I can eat. Yeah, I know, some of the restaurants around here are freaking amazing.
And it's just it's so nice to be surrounded by a culture that I had previously felt like that I
wasn't accepted, but it was because I wasn't allowing myself to be accepted into it. But
I've stopped caring really about what the majority of like white Americans think about
me or think about people like me, and that's really helped me out.
You know, like, I don't need to generalize, but the average Minnesotan does not have
very good feelings towards my community. And
that's just how it is, you know, it's, it's sad, but it's also something that I can't fix so I'm
not gonna go out my... like Im' not gonna keep trying
To change people who don't want to be changed, you know, like, there's no point in
trying to make, like, I like, I feel like, for so long, I was like, Okay, I have to be the
perfect person. Just so everyone knows, that there's good Somali people but like, I'm
allowed to be human, I'm allowed to do dumb things. And that isn't a reflection of my
entire community. And that's what I've come to learn. And that's just what I'm waiting
for the rest of the country to learn. There are bad people, every creed, every race every
like, everything. And it's it really sucks because the second like people like, like in high
school, like I guess, like the big thing was like, you know, like, Somali people are so
loud, Somali people are so loud, and it's like the only reason people see those differences
is because of like the really big difference in skin color. The really big difference and like,
the way we talk, like, we're just normal people, we're, you know, we're like everyone
else, but we look different. And that's the biggest that's what I've learned is that I'm not
going to keep trying to like, make up for something that I shouldn't have to feel bad
about.
You know, so yeah, that's like, that was a lot of my high school experience. It was just a
lot of us try to assimilate and then
you know,
not feeling the best after. Because, yeah, like, America's apple pie but look at look at
what cost, you know, like, my Somali is really shitty like I find it really hard still like
now to go up to Somali people and have a big conversation, you know talk to them and
it's it's something that I've been working on for a while now and I'm really glad that I
have the opportunity to be surrounded by my culture. It's it's not something I got when I
was growing up.
Abby Mulcahey 10:47
How has it been, like growing up with
Somali parents that are like immigrants like because I know like, you know yeah
Muna Galbayte 11:01
My parents immigrated here about
25 years ago. Right? And I like they had lived in Texas before and California, and then
they moved to Minnesota because, you know, I forget if it's the number one or number
two, but Minnesota has like the highest concentration of Somali people outside of
Somalia, right? And that's why they came here because they wanted to be surrounded by
that. And my parents have taught like a really good job of assimilating to American
culture, as I said before,
but it's, it's like, I noticed it in the little things. Like, for the life of the American pop
culture, I just don't get most of the references. And all of my friends will be like, oh, have
you seen this? Or like, a lot of like, the classic Disney movies like I haven't seen them just
because that wasn't like, , like, Why would my immigrant
Somali parents be like, why would that be something that we watch? Like, we're gonna
listen to some Arab music real quick, you know, everybody gets that. You know, like,
that's like, that's what we did. So like, it's like, it's stuff like that or like, I didn't know for
the longest time that most like, a lot of Americans didn't take their shoes off when they
went into their houses. So like when I'd go over to my friend's house, I'd be like, start
with tying my shoes and they'd be like what are you doing? I'm like bro I'm not gonna
track mud into your house and they're like oh that's fine. You know? Like, it's like, it's
stuff like that. It's
just like cultural differences that just show up. And
I don't know, it's, I don't really see them until I see them I guess. And then I'm like, Oh,
that's because like my parents immigrated here like they it's it's just a it's just a different
way of growing up. And it was really nice growing up. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 12:55
I'm curious um, what the most like racist account "thingy boppy" you've had?
Muna Galbayte 13:03
Well, yeah, well like
the first time I really had anything like say anything super racist, they yelled the N word,
hard-r at me. And I was in eighth grade and my little sister was in seventh grade. And
we were getting off the bus, right. And we were walking up to our front porch because
we were going to go inside our house. And someone who was driving past just yelled it
at us, like, absolute, like, it was the crate. And I was like, I looked at my look older
brother because he had open the door and I was like, like, did you did you just hear
that? And he was like, looking around, like, trying to like find out who said it, but they
were in their car. So like, that was the first time anyone had ever like,
been so blatantly racist that I like recognized. Oh, that's, that's pure racism. And it was...
there was no reason behind it. And the second time it was
pretty recently, actually, it was after the Trump rally here in Minnesota.
And I had gone to the protest right?
After things were like getting crazier than ever and I was walking down the street and
there was this woman in her full MAGA attire and I was feeling like an asshole. So I said
very loudly to my friend, "imagine being such a piece of shit that you wear your MAGA
attire around like it's nothing." and the woman looked at me and she called me the N
word hard-r. And then she... um, we got into like a verbal altercation. I was calling her,
like, a piece of shit.
Like, I was being really and I understand that I was like, being rude like a like I but I
didn't care because I didn't... She had no regard for literally anyone else. Like, that's like,
I don't care if you're Republican. I understand that. I'll always have like different
viewpoints with people who are more conservative, but I have absolutely no patience for
Trump supporters. Yeah, I think they're vile human beings and I will be disrespectful to
them any way I can. I'm going to be honest. I'm not somebody who gets into physical
altercations, but I will curse someone out if they are
So proud of, you know, their political decisions of the, what they believe in, I will call
them out on it. So we got into an altercation she ended up spitting on my friend
who is also like a black Muslim woman. And then she ran inside of Seven, which is kind
of not important, I guess whatever. But I like to tell people, Seven is like a gay bar
Minneapolis and the owner came out and he started saying the most racist shit I've ever
heard in my life. And there's a video of it somewhere, but he called me a towel head.
And then he um... What should we call it? Was just Yeah, he was like, look at like,
these, whatever, whatever. Like it just the most disgusting things ever. And I was like,
Oh, this is this is comedy to me. Like, look at this. Like this man thinks he's so powerful.
And so just, just there's a lot. There's a lot of racism, a lot of sexism, a lot of it was just
the intersectionality of all things vile.
And that was that was a pretty big account. And also this is just a side story but um, it's
it's something funny that I like to tell my friends, another racist thing, which I found that
about my seat last semester of my senior year, it was in this class was called intro to
social justice, right. And there's this kid who sat behind me his name is Carter Boldenow
now, it's not relevant to the story, but you know, and we were just talking and I was
like, Hey, remember in second grade, because we've gone to the same elementary school
was like, remember, we're talking about like, the little choir concert. I was like, I
remember I stood next to you Carter whenever it doesn't, it was just like a weird number
he had. And he was like, wait, that was you? And I was like, Yeah, like what's up and he
was like, You made my grandpa move to Florida. And I was like, What do you mean I
made your grandpa move to Florida? Um backstory... Carter Boldenow's family's
incredibly racist. Like, one of his cousins has a confederate flag tattooed on his
back.
And he's from Minnesota... part of the Union. So yeah, they're the most rac- like, top
top level. But Carter isn't, he's a really cool guy. And he was like, after that performance,
my grandpa was like, You know what, I'm sick of this shit. There are too many towel
heads in the state. And I was- this is my little thing. I was the towel head that broke the
camel's back. I was the reason a fully grown adult man. Like, I wasn't the only reason
but I was the last straw for him. And I was the reason that his grandpa moved to
Florida. And I only knew this like, my last semester of my senior year. Like, I was
wearing my little hijab, and he was just so upset about it.
Abby Mulcahey 17:47
Well, good thing he's out of Minnesota now.
Muna Galbayte 17:49
Yeah. It's a much better state. Yeah, I think that's a very I think it's very funny. Now
obviously, it's like they're all these like terrible things, but I find the humor in it because
like a fully grown man moved states because of a tiny towel head. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 18:08
Do you ever like not feel safe when you go out wearing your hijab?
Muna Galbayte 18:14
Yeah, all the time. Literally like all... Like my biggest fear is that because I'm such a loud
mouth, I'm going to say something to the wrong person and I'm going to get shot.
Because of my like, the thing is, it's not funny, but like, I think it's a little funny. Like, if
someone committed a hate crime against me, they would have so many reasons to like,
I'm black. I'm a Muslim, and I'm a woman. So like, if they tried to figure it out, it's just
that little like intersectionality you know? Um, so yeah, I it's it's really scary and like,
some time to call it a kind of an experiment saying like, oh, like how do I feel about the
hijab like, my parents never were like, I know a lot of people have a really negative
experience with wearing a hijab where their parents kind of forced it on them
but my parents were always like, you know you do you make your own choices but I
know that they would prefer if I wore it because they like, like it's a religion it's a
religious garmet and like, you know, my family's very religious so that's like, why,
but it was just like, you know what college is a time to discover yourself like let me
figure this shit out
and what I've got I just and I like my hair is usually covered anyways because I like wear
bandanas and I wear beanies so like wearing the hijab shouldn't be different but it's so
different and like the thing is, I've noticed it so much like what I'm just wearing my
beanie around like
I don't get dirty looks from strangers like I don't like it's it's so weird. Like there's all this
animosity towards me that I didn't realize until it wasn't there anymore. Like people
smile at me on the streets like like I know like obviously everyone's not a terrible person
but like my experience so far like when I wear the hijab in public
has just been so bad and I didn't even realize it. You know, it's like, I don't know. It's
crazy to me. So yeah, it's like, it's really scary. But I like... I'm still Muslim, you know,
like, I mean I'll wear it, I'll do whatever. But it's it's I don't know how to explain how just
not great it is to feel like you're constantly being like, scrutinized by everyone and
everyone is judging you, and everyone hates you for your religion. It's it's crazy to me.
Yeah, sure. Um, so during my last year of high school, I got really involved in a lot of
violence provention activism. And I ended up working for this nonprofit called protect
Minnesota, and I still work for them. I just do a little less now because college is hard.
Abby Mulcahey 20:34
I also know that you're like a big activist. And then you went to the Women's March,
right? Yeah. And then you even talked there. Do you want to talk a little bit about that?
Muna Galbayte 21:00
And I worked as well, I also worked for *Audio undectable* in action and I was on the
board for March for Our Lives Minnesota. So that was like kind of my whole shabang. I
like I barely went to high school my senior year. It was really fun though. I would give
press press conferences, I would speak at events. I would just be to make a lot it was it
was really fun. And the way that I got connected with the Women's March was like the
march for lives group chat, someone was like, hey, like, so and so I was looking for
someone to like, speak. They're like, like, we'll have like a phone interview. Just call into
this at a certain time or whatever. So I did I called and did my little interview was like a
conference call with everyone trying to get the position that I got it. So it was literally the
craziest shit ever to be like, I was like, oh, like this is like, kind of insane. And I met Ilhan
Omar there, which was like literally like the biggest flex I will ever have.
No, the bigger flex is that she's technically related to me. And she knew that from my
last name, My last name is Galbayte. And that is not a very common last name. Like it's
like.. most Muslim last names are like Mohammed, yada yada yada
So it's like, just literally Our family has that last name and she was like, Oh, Galbayte,
like she mentioned one of my uncles and I was like, Yeah, she was like, oh sick, like, I'm
related to him through like, whatever, whatever. And it was like, it was like the craziest
thing I cried right after meeting her and it was just this such like,
ah, and it was it was just a really great thing for me.
And like, I don't know activism work in general is just such a very white space. It I know
that a lot of times that people do use me as like their token minority, which I really hate.
Like my high school did that so hard so hard. Like
I yeah, but yeah, like because activism
is such a white space like, I can't help but feel like I stand out no matter what I do
especially when I'm like, what they really want you to do like when you're talking about
your personal experience this is to like kind of like bare your soul to like all these
strangers. And like sometimes I'm just like for what like, I don't know, because it.. things
that I've worked on, like last year I ended up testifying to Minnesota, whatever whatever
like some committee or like Public Safety Committee. It was
about these two bills, house file 9, house file 8. And they were regarding gun violence
prevention, lower levels of red flag law. And the other one is universal background
checks, universal background checks. And the fact that they got through that first
committee like it passed that it got through the next committee and then it died and the
third committee, like that's what I don't like about but like the activism work, it's because
I've put in so many hours, so much time into it.
Like, I always feel like we're never going to get ahead because of, you know, like, like,
the power that other people have in committees it just it, it, it's it feels so good sometimes
but sometimes I just feel so powerless of like, I'm trying so hard and it feels like nothing
is changing.
But what like the different like the different I also work I did a lot of interning for the
DFL the democratic farmer Labor Party of Minnesota, the democrats here.
And I would just work on individual campaigns or interesting like general stuff. So like,
that's that that's the kind of act like activism, I guess, that I really enjoy. Because you can
immediately see a change. I did a lot of voter engagements interning. So I would like
door knocking I'd be cold calling. I'd be like, doing whatever my boss wanted me to do
kind of and it was like 2000, the 2018 midterms. Nearly
Everyone that we were campaigning for got elected, and that felt so freakin good.
Because I had worked on those campaigns I had worked for these people, and then they
got elected. Like, that's like, the terrax. Like, like, I'm kind of like an instant gratification
kind of person. And I know that isn't how it should be like when it comes to like
activism and stuff, but like, working for campaigns is my jam. And that's like, that's like
my favorite kind of civic work. Or I don't know how to describe it that's my favorite
kind . Because I can see results after I talked to a voter and they tell me they're
considering voting for the person that I call for. That feels really good. You know, like,
it's, it's stuff like that, that I really enjoy. And I'm really happy that I got to do it. Yeah.
Abby Mulcahey 25:48
So I'm curious about like, the dating, um, in Islam and like, how people go about dating.
Muna Galbayte 25:56
Yeah, um, so dating in Islam is a little complicated.
Islam doesn't really like condone
relationships kind of like that aren't leading to marriage. Like if that isn't your goal, like
it's like considered a Haram, like Haram
directly translates to permitted but like, I don't think of it like that. It's Haram like, right?
Um, but like if you're like, like, if you're dating someone you're like, oh, like, I think I
could see myself marrying this person, then like, that's cool. We're just not a whole big
fan of the whole premarital sex thing. And then, yeah, like, it's not that complicated. It's
just a lot of relationships. Like, especially when you're really young, you're not trying to
marry them, which is why you don't see a lot of Muslim people dating when they're
younger.
Oh, I mean, you do.
But it's as long as your intentions are to eventually marry the person or like you're
seriously considering that, then it's like cool, as long as y'all don't have sex.
Abby Mulcahey 27:00
Okay.
All right, Muna. Is there anything else that you would like to add that you didn't get to
share?
Bystander 27:07
No.
Muna Galbayte 27:11
Not really.
Abby Mulcahey 27:13
Okay, thank you for letting me interview you today.
Muna Galbayte 27:19
Thank you for interviewing me.
Show less
FG: Hello everyone, my name is Fatima Gele. I'm a student at expert
University. It's April 8, 2021 and I'm here today with Muhammad
Mohammed for the Oral History Project Muslim in Minnesota archive at x
bog University. Could you please introduce yourself starting with your full
name?
MM: Th... Show more
FG: Hello everyone, my name is Fatima Gele. I'm a student at expert
University. It's April 8, 2021 and I'm here today with Muhammad
Mohammed for the Oral History Project Muslim in Minnesota archive at x
bog University. Could you please introduce yourself starting with your full
name?
MM: Thank you, Fatima. My name is Mahmoud Osman Mohammed.
FG: All right. Let's begin by telling us a little bit about yourself?
MM: Well, I am from Somalia, but was born in a line, which is a city in the
UAE. My parents entered the diversity visa lottery program. And luckily, my
mother was randomly selected, which granted her and her immediate
family receive the US Green Card. I am a husband and a father of a
seven-month-old son named Suleyman. I've earned a master's degree in
school counseling from the University of Wisconsin River Falls. I am a new
school counselor at Roosevelt High School, which is a great high school.
And I'm a part-time program director of youth and performance at the
Somali Museum of Minnesota, which is one of the best nonprofit
organizations out there.
FG: Interesting. How's your family life? Is it a big family or a small one? Do
you have any siblings?
MM: Yes, I have a big family. I am one of six. I have two brothers and three
sisters. Additionally, I also have one stepsister and three half brothers. I'm
grateful to still have my mother, my father, my grandmother, and my aunts,
all in my life.
FG: Okay, in terms of your religious upbringing, what was your childhood
like?
MM: I've had a great childhood. Of course, there were ups and downs. But
for the most part, I had a great upbringing. As a child, I was taught to have
a close relationship with Allah. And to know that he will always be there for
me.
FG: Okay, where did you leave and go to school? What was your
experience like as a Muslim student in school?
MM: Good question. I grew up in Houston, Texas, and attended some
Elementary, starting with fourth grade. Then after that was middle school,
and high school, all in Houston, Texas. My schools were located in a
low-income neighborhood, which has its ups and downs. I was one of the
only Muslim students in my elementary and middle school days. In high
school, there were a lot more Muslims, Muslim students, which made it
easier for teachers and school staff to learn about our religion. And let us
stay far away from the school cafeteria when we were fasting.
FG: So now you mentioned that you grew up in Houston, Texas. How long
have you been here in Minnesota?
MM: I've only lived in Minnesota for about seven years. My family and I
moved from Houston, Texas, to Minneapolis, Minnesota simply because of
opportunities. It wasn't easy finding or keeping a job in Houston as a young
Somali man, I mean, Houston. had its other advantages were, you know,
living with affordable. But there was a lack of opportunities for someone like
me. Yeah, and they’re just weren't any opportunities for advancements or
growth. I am not speaking for my Somali peers who still reside in Houston.
But this is based on my experience. There was a well-established, you
know, I always I’d, Minnesota, and I was so drawn to it. Because there was
a well-established Somali community in Minnesota, who successfully
worked their way up and contributed to the success of Minnesota. Um, and
I just, I was just really attracted to that I was drawn to it, and amazed by the
good work of the Somali community in Minnesota. And I wanted to be a
part of that. And I am so glad that my family and I made the move here.
All right. So as a child, what did you want to be when you grew up?
MM: Um, I used to say that I wanted to be a teacher, when I was a child,
shows to always go around the house, telling everyone that I'll be a
teacher. But around the time I was a teenager, I changed my mind and
wanted to be an actor. I was really interested in performing arts I loved
even as a little boy, I would gather my siblings, and have them act out a
scene from a movie. And I've always enjoyed it. And in these plays, that
we've acted out, I've always had scenes where we've even done songs
where we've done some dancing. So as a teenager, I said, You know what,
I want to become a famous actor, just like Denzel Washington Will Smith,
you know, and all the other great actors and somebody moved to
Hollywood. Um, my family, though, didn't really approve of that, and instead
encouraged me to become a pharmacist. They really thought I would be
wasting my time with this whole acting world acting profession, and that I
should get that I should go into the medical field, or, or and especially,
become, specifically become a pharmacist. After taking my pre-pharmacy
courses, which I've spent years doing, I knew this wasn't the career for me.
So I searched and searched and searched for a career that suited my
interest. And after a long search, I decided to become a school counselor.
Now, let me go back, because during my high school days, I really never, I
don't remember sitting down with the counselor. So I've, I've been so
frustrated after high school, I've spent a lot of time, money, and energy. I'm
figuring out what it is that I needed to do. And I am grateful that after
spending so many years searching, that I've actually found that I finally
found what was best for me, the career that suited me, and that was
becoming a school counselor. No, I did not I did not really mind. on what
level of counseling, whether it was elementary, middle school, or high
school, as long as I was making a difference, and being impactful to the
youth, that's all that mattered to me.
Wow.
FG: So how did your life change after you came to Minnesota?
MM: Um, well, I am grateful to now live in Minnesota. I got to take
advantage of all the opportunities that were available for me. I really don't
think that I would have really reached as far as I did. If I was still living in
Houston. I got to work for the Somali Museum, which was founded by my
father. And I got the opportunity to help develop one of the best programs
for the Somali Museum. I have that program is the Somali museum dance
troupe, which is a traditional dance program. So, to tell you a little bit about
the Somali museum dance troupe. It's made up of young men and women
who not only study Somali traditional dancing every Saturday from four to
six but also perform them out for the communities. We've traveled and
performed in so many venues, and so many cities such as Houston, Texas,
San Diego, California, Columbus, Ohio. Grand Forks, North Dakota,
Virginia, we've got to perform in Seattle, and all across Minnesota, from
Wilmer to St. Cloud to Rochester, to Faribault to E men, Qaeda, you name
it, we've performed all across Minnesota. And yeah, I am I'm, I think it's
being a part of the Somali Museum. And having to develop that program
means a lot to me, because we've touched so many people, not just locally,
but around the world. The following museum platform has allowed me to
expand my ability to successfully teach people about the culture, our
culture. And I've also gotten to, we've gotten to me and the dance troupe
and all the other staff members of the museum, we've got an opportunity to
put a smile on the faces of many by entertaining them. And more. I got the
opportunity to become a teacher as well. I taught I've taught at Wellston
international High School, which is a great, great High School. majority of
the students that were enrolled in this high school where students who've
only been in the country for a few years. They had limited knowledge of the
English language, but they were some of the resilient most resilient, and
hardworking students that I've ever worked with. They were juggling their
schoolwork and at the same time, working at night, working long and hard
hours to provide for their families back home. Um, yeah, and they’ve
worked twice as hard as everyone else. And for that, I'm really proud of
them. I was responsible for Welstone international High School, I was
responsible for teaching a college counseling curriculum for high school
juniors and seniors that will support them in applying for best-fit colleges
and universities. In addition to teaching, I work closely with academic
teachers, parents, students, universities, and more to ensure our students
are equipped With the knowledge and tools they need to successfully be
enrolled
and to thrive in a college until they graduate. Um So yeah, I'm, I was very
lucky to work with these students to work with the teachers at Welstone
international high school with the principal with their system principal with
the other mental health professionals, such as the social workers, and
counselors. And I've all have that has been one of my best experiences, I
made sure that students evaluate various post-secondary degrees,
careers, and institutions. And at the end of the year, my goal was that they
each chose the career that was the best I mean, the call the career that
was the best fit for them, the degree that was the best fit for them, and the
institution that was the best for them. I also got them to evaluate what a
good resume is, and a cover letter.
A through A, through a mock interview process. And as a result, 98% of the
students of seniors graduated from high school 94% of them applied to
college before they graduated. And 24% of the seniors were granted a
scholarship. So we've had good results, especially with students who are el
English language learners. Yeah, so, if it wasn't for my move to Minnesota,
I don't think any of this would be possible.
FG: Very good, So, um, what is the most beautiful places you have ever
visited? And what was it like?
MM: You know, I visited a lot of beautiful places. One that I can remember
is visiting California. I have visited many cities in the state of California,
such as Los Angeles, San Diego, and more. And I was just in love with it. I
loved the great variety of food. They had everything they're like you could
find any type of food. And the quality of the food was great. It's a natural
beauty. From the trees to the beach. It was just stunning was beautiful. And
of course, the entertainment. Like I told you earlier, I'm into Performing Arts,
I'm into entertainments and arts. And I think they have I mean, come on,
they have Hollywood. So I've really enjoyed the entertainment scene.
They're
FG: interesting. What person had the most positive influence on your life?
MM: I besides Malcolm X, who I've looked up to my mother, father, and Big
Brother have been the most influential people in my life. My mother always
taught me to give back. forgive others, even if they're wrong, be kind to
people and pray when things aren't going your way or going right. My mom
was a caring person and just an amazing, amazing woman who has
sacrificed a lot for us. My dad taught me about work ethics,
and to be brave in this world. As you can see, there's so much happening
in this world.
And it's very important to be strong and brave. I respect his hard work and
accomplishments and I am lucky to work with him at the Somali Museum of
Minnesota. Last an I was my brother, I respect my brother's positive
attitude. You know, that my, my entire life. My brother has never said
anything else. To me, never a curse word. He's the one person I know that
have never cursed at anyone. What do we just pretty impressed with with
everything that could go on in this world? So yeah, I really respect his
positive attitude. I respect his patience. I respect his loyalty and his
compassion. And I'm really grateful, really, really grateful to have all three
of them in my life.
FG: Okay, what path did religion play in your family?
MM: Actually, it's Islam has taught us there in life, we will be tested. And
then when you are tested, you seek help from God. You seek help from
God through patience and prayer. That teaching has helped us through a
lot in life and made us rely on and love our Creator, Allah. Islam also taught
us to have love and sympathy for all humanity. Which is why we can
coexist. You know, in such a diverse country. We can coexist with anyone
regardless of their background, race, and religion.
FG: So what does being Muslim mean to you? And what are some of the
biggest misconceptions about Muslims?
MM: Well, Islam means peace. It means love, compassion, generosity,
brotherhood, and sisterhood. Do you know? Islam, for us, is a way of life.
And there is there, of course, are lots of misconceptions. One of those
misconceptions is that Islam is not peaceful. It's not a peaceful religion.
And I want to really clarify this because I've, I was raised as a Muslim man.
So I've lived all my life as a Muslim. And I can assure you that the Islamic
religion his Islam is peaceful, it's peaceful. In the Islamic religion, it is
absolutely forbidden to discriminate against others based on their class,
ethnicity, religion, and also their gender. That is exactly what most Somali
people practice. The actions and beliefs of violent groups
do not represent a religious religion, that that we practice. So, and it doesn't
help, you know, it doesn't help when you have,
especially in the past, lots of movies that portrayed us as terrorists, villains,
and they just brutal people. Some of those films I'm talking about are
Captain Phillips, and Black Hawk Down, and a few others. And it really
didn't help. And that didn't sit too well with me. That when people formed,
formed an idea of what Islam was like. When they really didn't know how
peaceful it was, so yeah, this is what being a Muslim meant to me and I'll
go ahead and repeat that. Islam is peace. It's love. It's generosity, it's
compassion. It's all about brotherhood and sisterhood. And yeah, and I'm
and I love being a Muslim man. Yeah.
FG: Is there anything else you would like to say?
MM: Well, we live in such a wonderful country, a country that allows
freedom, a country that is well established. And that gives us access to
health and education and so many other great things. But the United States
is becoming more right racially and ethnically diverse. So it is likely that
you'll be working with or be classmates with or be neighbors, with people
from different cultures. So it's important to have some perspective and
understanding of their cultures. Whether it intertwines with the religion or
not doing that having some perspective and understanding of their culture,
and about them will make not only this country but the world a better place.
All right. Thank you very much for being here with me.
Thank you, Fatima, for having me.
FG: Today is Thursday, April 15, 2021. My name is Fatima Gele. And I'm
here with Mohammed Mohammed for the oral history project in Minnesota
archives at expert. University. So Ramadan Mubarak! how's your day
today?
Ramadan. Mubarak, my day is going well. Thank you for asking.
FG: Great. So just going back a little bit about what you said earlier in the
last recording. You mentioned that you moved to Minnesota because there
were so many opportunities available. So tell me more about this?
MM: Well, what I meant is well, the more of us here, the better the
opportunity. So I'll repeat that again. So the more of us here, the better the
opportunity. Somali people in this state are united. They're strong and
hard-working immigrants or citizens who operate many businesses, and will
most of the time offer employment opportunities to their own. Somalis
played a huge role in the Minnesota capital recovery and the local real
estate market. I've also noticed that many non-Somalis will hire Somalis for
the benefit of serving their soul Molly clients, patients, or students since
there are misunderstandings and miscommunications between them due to
language barriers and cultural differences. For example, let's just say
there's a school of 1000 students and half of them are Somali. It's likely that
the principal of that school will hire several Somali staff members to support
Somali students and to help bridge the gap between the Somali students
and non-Somali students and staff at that school. So that's what I meant by
Yeah,
FG: Interesting. I have never been to any other state than Minnesota. So
I'm glad to hear that. Next question, what was your religious life? like
growing up in Houston, Texas? What congregation? If any, did you attend
each celebration? The way Muslims organized to come together during eat
prayer? How is that different from Minnesota?
MM: Yeah, that's a great question. Fatima. So, in Houston, Texas. Houston
has a large Muslim population. The biggest gathering, I remember are the
times we attended, eat prayers at the convention center. Events. Were
organized by all Muslims, and events are all-inclusive. The only difference
in Minnesota is that the majority of the Muslims in this state come from one
nation, which is Somalia. We have a large established Somali community in
Minnesota.
Great. So with this, did your family have any special traditions such as
things that they did on holidays? Or birthdays?
Yes, my family and I just like almost lumps, celebrate eat and run mother.
Also for Molly's love going to cultural events that include entertainment. So
I organized one of the biggest events of the year, which is kind of a
corporate entertainment event where we showcase Somali culture whether
it's dancing, poetry, theatre play, a kids fashion show, you name it. You we
showcase your all and we've had sold-out venues for the past seven years,
almost every year for the past seven years. So that shows you how much
Somalis love their culture. Besides each celebration events and cultural
event that the Somali museum showcased here in Minnesota, the Somali
independence day festival is a very popular celebration.
FG: That's good. The next question I will have is with student involvement,
as you talked about working as a college and careers teacher and then
becoming a high school counselor. What was your experience like
transitioning from teacher to counselor?
MM: Yeah, good question. So, when I was a high school teacher, I used to
teach certain subjects to my students inside of a classroom. As the
counselor, I deliver counseling services to students, and work with them,
one on one, one on one, or in a small group. So I'm a licensed school
counselor, who qualifies to address the academic career, and
social-emotional development needs of all my students, regardless of their
race, religion, and ethnic background. I believe that I do a lot more work as
a school counselor. Then I did as a teacher. And with and by the way, both
professions. The goal for both professions is to help your students succeed
in school and outside of school. So counselors and teachers have the
same goal. We will Want to see our students be successful? And there's
nothing more that I would love than to work with students and see them
achieve their goals. I am glad I was a teacher before becoming a school
counselor. Because I learned so much about classroom management
strategies, such as setting clear rules and boundaries. Also, I can
empathize with how teachers feel when they are faced with challenging
times, such as grading, lesson planning, teacher-parent conferences, and
so much more.Okay. How will people describe you?
Well, I think that people would describe me as an optimistic person,
someone who is creative, someone who's imaginative, and an ambition
person. Additionally, they would probably say that I'm dynamic and full of
energy when leading people, especially the youth. Yeah, they they would, I
think they would describe me as all that I've just mentioned. And also, I just
have this cultural. What do you call it? Well, I do have that cultural
competence, where I have a gift in seeing the potential in people and
naturally have that ability to connect with them. Regardless of who they
are, or what their cultural or ethnic background is, I just have that gift. And
that just natural ability to connect with anyone, especially the youth.
FG: That's good. What is your goal in the future?
MM: In the future, I aspire to someday work as a school counsellor on an
international capacity. Why? Because I believe that many children all over
the world lack the proper emotional and psychological and social support
that affects their development. So I aspire to spread my knowledge and
expertise to other counsellors or teachers worldwide, to help them shape
the positive emotional and psychological development of the children that
are around the I think we are so grateful that school counsellors are well
respected in the United States. We play a crucial role in a student's
development in all levels, whether it's an elementary, middle school, or high
school, even in college, so I really want to push other counsellors and other
teachers out there, or educators to help students and support them
emotionally and socially and emotionally. And hopefully, I will play a huge
role in doing that. Well,
FG:thank you so much for being here today.
Oh, you're so very welcome, Fatima. I really thank you for for interview for
choosing me and and for interviewing me.
Show less
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do y... Show more
Malissa Lamah 0:01
Okay to start the interview, please state your full name where you're born where
you currently live.
Mohammed Dukuly 0:09
My name is Mohammad Dukuly. I was born in Liberia and I currently live in
Minnesota. I live in Brooklyn Park, Minnesota.
Malissa Lamah 0:20
Okay, do you know the meaning behind your name?
Mohammed Dukuly 0:23
Yes, I do. Mohammed means the praised one like the prophet of Islam. It means
the praised one the one that Allah praises and also the angels also praising and
(indecipherable). So his name is Mohammed. The Dukuly we are descendants of
Jacob. You know, sometimes they tell us the meaning of that. The land owners the
the kings of the land and it can also mean Warriors, people that always been
targeted. And so we are, you know, given the story of Joseph, you find that a
lot more, in our family and outsiders looking at us from that perspective.
Malissa Lamah 1:16
Okay. What tribe do you identify yourself as?
Mohammed Dukuly 1:20
well originally we are Marka people from Mali, the descendants from Mali our
great grandfathers and then migration moved them from Mali all the way to
Liberia. And but this is not just 100 200 years ago, much more than that. And so
we sent to in the area where we speak also different dialects like Vai or Collo
and so interchangeably. People call us Mandingo Vai Mandingo, Collo Mandingo,
and so we identify ourselves with all of it because, we we do not discriminate
against the locals and we speak those tribes and so we consider ourselves Vai,
collo, madingo and kpelle in some instances.
Malissa Lamah 2:15
okay. How was life in Africa for you? How is it like in school and your daily
life?
Mohammed Dukuly 2:20
Well quite honestly, unlike many other people, maybe because of the way our
parents were. I did not face any major difficulties in growing up in life
because our father, and they have means of taking care of us, as marka. They
have so many other family, children staying with them and providing shelter,
feeding and also school, our school fees, and so forth. So there were challenges
Yes, but it was not to The point of some other people where they have to sleep
hungry, and I didn't have to go through that, where they have to struggle for
school fees. I didn't have to go through that. If the father was not around, our
mother was there. And so we were not rich but we were not to the point of abject
poverty.
Malissa Lamah 3:25
Okay, did you ever go to college and what is your current occupation?
Mohammed Dukuly 3:31
Yes, well, yes. My current occupation right now like you said, I'm a imam but
I'm a student of politics and also Islam. A I spent a large number of my May as
the age actually going out to Islam, studying Islam under the dictatoralship of
not just my father, my uncle and also Sheikh Mohammed, for (indecipherable),
they're knowledgeable people today in the world. Islam. If you can't he will be
among the first five, and so many other scholars as well.
Malissa Lamah 4:11
Okay, as a kid, as a kid what was Islam to you, when did you realize that you're
Muslim?
Mohammed Dukuly 4:17
Well, we're born in Islam. Our father is a scholar. He was a teacher professor
teaching. A lot of students knowledgeable people come from all over all walks of
life. So we grew up our mother. Also our background is Islam, like I told you,
we are descendants of Jacob. And so throughout the lives of our grandparents,
great grandparents, our fathers, they teach Islam, so we were born in Islam. We
didn't convert to Islam were born Islam. So we live Islam we wake up Islam, we
sleep we eat Islam. And so it was easy for us to be called Muslims because this
is what we knew.
Malissa Lamah 4:58
Okay, who inspired you to learn more about Islam.
Mohammed Dukuly 5:02
My dad, my dad and my dad was the main inspiration and our mother our father was
like I say, a great teacher. And so he he always called upon us even after
school he said come and learn it because the life doesnât they have bone in
it, It can go anytime. And So he he actually put more effort encouraged us to
learn more about it. And I wish I had done this maybe 10 times more than I did
you know, so that I can know more. But I'm given whatever went through with him
and others quite show is helping me to help other people as well
Malissa Lamah 5:44
Okay did you always study Islam. How did you start to go like interest in
religion?
Mohammed Dukuly 5:50
You know, I grew up like I said to you, my our father had a lot of students he
was teaching them and I begin I started to grow interest in that. So Here is
what we had this Islamic school that we go to it was it was Islamic. It was
actually the combination of Western is what it call school and Islamic school
together And so we go to school, we have a classes with Arabic teacher, and then
we'll also go to our regular classes. And then we'll come back in the evening we
also have to learn our and father will teach us and then go for Islamic Studies
at the teachers house. So that was really tedious. You know So we have to not
only that we have to get up early in the morning to do Islamic studies get ready
to go to school to go to school we have to so when we graduated from high
school, we actually graduate a concurrently with two High School Certificate
because you graduating from the Islamic High School at the same time, but it's
the same school, you know, so a that was that was really an amazing thing. You
know, and so That was the motivation because there was no no time to waste by
the way, no time to waste.
Malissa Lamah 7:06
Okay, let's see who inspired you to learn more about islam,
Mohammed Dukuly
My father.
your father?
7:10
Malissa Lamah 7:11
Yeah Okay. Let's see, after high school, did you just continue to study Islam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:17
Yes. I've never stopped everything I'm doing now never stopped. Because it's a
process that you can't stop.
Malissa Lamah
Yes
7:24
Mohammed Dukuly 7:24
you know, you have to keep you have to keep reading you have to keep you know,
voluminizing yourself with different opinions of different scholars, different
schools of thought and so so forth. And even just the Quran alone, you could be
studying that throughout your life.
Malissa Lamah 7:41
When did you become an imam?
Mohammed Dukuly 7:44
Well, I became an Imam I think 1986. But in the house in our compound, we have
masjid. So this masjid I was one of the imams there but the Supreme Council of
Islamic Affairs in 1986. commission me as an imam. You know, so from that point
to this point, I have served. But prior to that, With the masjid we have in our
yard? Any one of us could be Imam to led the prayers and then even before that,
I was also like assistant imam of the masjid, you know, in our city
(indecipherable) Assistant Imam to the Imam. You know but, at that time because
I was much younger, I could not do the Friday prayers, but it came to a time I
started to, to also assist the Imam on Friday, prayers and so and so forth. And
I was the one making the dua I was the (indecipherable) I was the one if the
Imam is not around I lead the prayers and so and so forth. It was really
encouraging from everybody, you know, to make us to grow up in a way that if
theyâre on that route we can represent them.
Malissa Lamah 8:47
Yeah. Okay. When did you come to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 8:52
Well, to come and stay that I can say 2004 since 2004. I've been here but my
first time I ever came to America. Maybe this is almost like 30 something years
I came here. But this time I came 2004 I've been here ever since.
Malissa Lamah 9:11
How was it for you like to from that change from Africa to America?
Mohammed Dukuly 9:15
Quite honestly. There are a lot of cultural differences, cultural differences,
and, you know, just imagine growing up with people. And when you here you're not
around them, you know, and there too many things happening behind you, some of
your family members, friends, colleagues, schoolmates, passing away and then
that just the fathom youâre not around to participate in either their burial
or the ceremonies and this that. so all of that brings a lot of different
emotional issues. Having said that, America yes we might be away from our
cultural environment. But America does not stop you from practicing your culture
here. And so What I have done is to look at the good things that exist in
America and apply it in my life. You know, there are so many things to learn
here, you know, apply in my life and use it to help other people. You know, I
can't be here just because I come from a cultural background maybe. And then I
ignore the good things here. And So because because I've been able to assimilate
to to understand that number of things that are good here. So it make my life
makes my life easier.
Malissa Lamah 10:31
Okay, where did you live when you first came here?
Mohammed Dukuly 10:34
Well Well, I have always live in Minnesota. I came here. The first time I ever
came to Minnesota was 1987 yeah 97. I came here and then I went back, you know,
I came to see my sister. And So the second time like I said, 2004 I came, you
know, we just been here and just just just look at a the vast difference between
the weather condition coming from a tropical weather, and come into the
excessively cold area. Yeah, but we've been able to adjust ourselves. It has not
been easy to cold and you know, we canât hundred percent adjust ourselves to
it but given environment and and also the friendship that we've been able to
establish here. It makes us to to actually forget about the weather.
Malissa Lamah 11:17
Okay, so you came here. You came to Minnesota specifically because of family
that was here?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:22
because of family. Yes.
Malissa Lamah 11:23
Okay. Let's see, how are you able to get in contact with other West Africans in
Minnesota?
Mohammed Dukuly 11:29
Well, because of the of the religion. We have family here that were here before
I came. And one of the ways that I were able to connect myself with the entire
African community in Minnesota is because of my cousin, who came and asked me to
to go to Masjid Noor and re-lead the prayers, because they have wanted for an
Imam To to also come from West African community Who will from time to time help
to preside over the prayers. And I said to him well yes Im Imam but I don't want
to do this well they begged me and so I I started to go to Noor and then we
close the Mosque and rebuild it and then I became imam there ever since then and
so because of that I was able to bring the entire West African community
together we all go there and pray and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 12:26
Wow, was Masjid Noor one that was in Minneapolis
Mohammed Dukuly 12:29
Yeah on Lydale 1729 Lyndale Avenue North
Malissa Lamah 12:33
okay, So coming to America as a Muslim for you, how was it what are some of your
positive and negative experiences?
Mohammed Dukuly 12:41
Well the positive thing I can say is that we came in we got accommodated but in
those days when you're traveling because sometimes because your name is
Mohammed? Yeah, then when they say is a random check in and then they throughly
check you of course my coming it was a different thing, I did not experience
that. However being here I've never personally been confronted by any
individual, because of my faith, or sense of about our community feels
threatened by heightened political rhetoric, you know, political leaders making
comments that could incite all those against Muslims. And so that is
intimidating enough. You know, so I don't have to be targeted as an individual,
but if the community is targeted I feel targeted. And by the way, it's not the
majority of the people that targets the Muslims. Maybe they just mini portion.
And so I look at the goodwill of the majority of American people, whether it is
in Minnesota, in particular, some of the political leaders I have been invited
to Congress to talk about these issues and I saw how accommodating the senators
were, in terms of guarantee the protection and the freedom for everybody, as
long as we live in this country
Malissa Lamah 14:15
Has the community ever been targeted at all? From what you've seen?
Mohammed Dukuly 14:19
Well, if if one like For instance, if masjid like masjid in Bloomington was
targeted, so why would I feel immune that my masjid will not be targeted and it
so nobody can tell me some isolated case, it was a concerted effort and the fact
that even our leader refused to condemn that, that was even more frightening.
And so, for whatever reason, he didn't do it. But uh, Alhumdulliah we like we
always say, we don't depend on the protection of man. We depend on the
protection of the Almighty God and God is protecting us (indecipherable) being
giving the action of So many political leaders definitely maybe I don't know
whether it's a tactic to scare people away from here or something. But
Personally, maybe I have not been targeted, but I fear particularly for our
daughters who are wear hijab and they're targeted 10 times more than the men
because because of the way they look and so, in their workplaces, in the schools
and campuses or even in the shopping malls, and so and so forth or driving by
themselves, you know, and so somebody who just target them, and so it is only by
Godâs own protection that they are, they have been able to, to live their
lives.
Malissa Lamah 15:49
Have you faced any microaggressions or stereotypes at all?
Mohammed Dukuly 15:54
well but of course, every single person of color when you even walk in the
store, you're already been a suspect of a crime that you did not commit. And so,
we see that they don't have to come directly to you to say, you know, you see
these innuendos, you see these actions that are part of people, business
centers, you know and so and so forth, they might not come to you directly and
but they feel somehow you know for instance I walk in a store and this is just
few maybe two weeks ago, and then I went a particular something but it was
locked up I told the lady to what it call so you can, so you canât put your
hand in there you only what it call something and I could buy the whole
stuff,and entire stuff, but because I'm black, she looked down upon me and this
is something that this particular girl when I started using this product she was
not even born. She was not even born. So it is a product that I've been using
for the last maybe more than 25 years. And she's this like maybe 19 or 20 so she
was not even born, but I acce- I felt really bad because what if I was a white
guy? She wouldn't do that.
Malissa Lamah
Yeah.
17:20
Mohammed Dukuly 17:20
So I feel aggressed but I let go because I don't want for anybody to lose their
job because of those kind of stuff, but we always feel feel-Even when we're when
I'm going out I always feel that somebody will aggress me whether it is in a
shopping center or maybe in the street or or just because the way we look, you
know, just because the way we look they at us with suspicious eyes.
Malissa Lamah 17:50
Yes. And do you feel that being a person of color and black, I mean not even
black, and Muslim, it makes it worse for you?
Mohammed Dukuly 17:58
of course yes that makes it Worst and because also of the position some of us
occupy, I canât hide myself, I canât do that I have to be open. And so I I
expect aggression. Now, I don't have to be aggressed to feel the pinch of it.
But the anticipation of that the fact that I have expected that somebody could
do it is worse than even the attack itself. So most people don't understand that
it's not because they attack you. It's because you're expecting somebody could
attack you. That is worse than me at that. You know, that you live in constant
fear and frustration, you know, and these expectations bring that kind of, you
know, feeling to you.
Malissa Lamah 18:37
Yes. Okay, so now let's talk about MMA, the Minnesota Madingo Association. How
did that come about? And did you take part of it?
Mohammed Dukuly 18:46
Well, I wasn't here when when the MMA started but MMA started as a result of
community getting together to unite and also provide cultural practice and
education for not just for the for the older folks but for our children. The
children that were born here and also find a way to see how we can make them to
understand that yes, they're American kids, but they also have a cultural
connection. So in order and then to if you don't have the elders, the parents
getting together, most definitely that becomes a difficult situation. Now, when
I came into it, Instead of just having a social club, I decided to talk about
Masjid, you know, that was not in the program because Masjid can easily bring us
together because we meet unlike MMA, a monthly basis, the Masjid we meet every
week in Ramadan we meet every day and every night You know, so, so and then we
also attach a school that will open we brought all the community kids together
even you are a beneficiary of that. And so we brought it community kids
together. The children that did not even know each other before they get to know
each other, and then also even for the strengthening the relationship between
the parents even sometimes the parents that were not speaking to each other,
because when they see the kids, you know, embracing each other. And that became
a source of further uniting and straightening the MMA. So, MMA is is a viable
organization in terms of how it has served the community in terms of when they
saw marriage program going on. Baby naming ceremoney, or somebody dies MMA works
around that and develop resources to be able to take care of all of that. So, so
that's my involvement. So I am I am part of MMA, and MMA is apart of our
community, as an Imam I'm part of all the organizations and even part of the
Guinean Association and I'm part of what it called something Nigerian community
the Gambian the Senegalese and So and I'm with all of these group because we all
pray together and then also they need me at relevant services I go to their
mosque I go everywhere, you know, when they need me, they see me as their imam.
And so I shall not just make myself a member just of one organization I have to
do with everybody, particularly everybody praying behind me. So, so that is my
involvement, not just with MMA, but different community organization.
Malissa Lamah 21:22
Okay. And what do you hope to see that this program can achieve in future?
Mohammed Dukuly 21:28
Well, I think what this program is going to achieve is, is further strengthening
the relationships between individual members and within the culture community
itself. And then also, the children coming up will know that their parents came
from somewhere. You know, it will tell you some people came here before maybe
about 80-100 years ago, from the Middle East. And they have places like Medina.
Yeah so it's like (indecipherable) it so this way Arabs who open some of the
series here, but because they lost the language and they lost their cultural
practices today if say somebody tell you the history, you can't even know they
existed. And so, what we hope to achieve through this organization is that a
constant reminder of where we are from. And so the children behind us they will
see that as a way of connecting themselves with the continent where their
fathers came from or in by extension, maybe their grandfathers because we're
also having grandkids here.
Malissa Lamah 22:48
So do you think that culture is very important for next generations in the
community?
Mohammed Dukuly 22:54
culture is very important. culture is very important to us. And we should make a
more important image to our kids because Why, the society has a way of, of
taking away, particularly the most powerful nations like America they, it has a
way of taking away the cultural practices of the people now, what is our
culture? Our culture is a culture of respect. The reason why we emphasize that
it's not just the language it's the way we behave, how respect our elders how
look after our kids, and extended family members, we want for our kids to know
that and service to humanity. And this is what our fathers did, can you imagine?
Every single day, our mothers used to cook food, and keep some food for the
stranger that they will not even expecting. Every day, they will do this. And so
we want for our children to know, and sometimes we pray that no strangers should
come so we can we can eat the food and something like that. But every day they
have to do this. So those are all unique cultural practices that we don't want
for our Children to lose that we want for them to know that this is important.
Yes, you in America, but you have to be humble. You have to be respectful. You
have to be caring, you have to be loving. You have to you have to provide for
others who might not even be related to you. And then also know how you can help
your family and sosososo. So that's the reason why cultural our culture is
important because it's highly embedded into into Islamic principles.
Malissa Lamah 24:30
Okay. And in general, not about you, it can be about anybody, but do you think
that culture our culture/tribe interferes with Islam and it's beliefs?
Mohammed Dukuly 24:41
Yes, yeah. Um, so
,yes, the culture interferes, because the reason why that happens is because of
sometimes most of the people that are practicing their religion, they're
ignorant of the religion, so they could be practicing something and believe that
this is Islam is a - like for instance, okay let me just say this Islam requires
a parents to ask the young girl her consent in order for her to get married to
anybody, the culture denies that the culture chooses they make arranged
marriage. Islam the Prophet .... say ask your daughter, if she is willing to get
married to a particular individual. If she says no, it said don't force her, but
our culture, even sometimes to the extent of saying if you don't marry to this
person, I would disown you and they do that. So that interferes with the with
the Islamic principle. You know, and people people do that all the time. They
don't what it called something. And it's another thing also the culture
interferes is a okay. Someone is married to somebody else's daughter. The mother
the mother in law of this lady interferes with her marriage. So as a result,
most of the marriages are breaking down because of that cultural thing. Their
mother, she has led her own house. Now she want to come and control her son's
house. As a result of this, there's always a clash. And that's wrong because
when you get married to a woman, that woman, this is her house, he has control
over this, not your mom, but because of the cautious some of the men even don't
understand that this house is is is the woman of this house that in charge
because that's what the Prophet ... Say (indecipherable) the woman is a
custodian of her husband's house. You know, it's not that it's not your mother.
It's not your mother, but the mothers are interfering and that's based on
culture is not based on Islam. And we all wear the hijab and everybody look
Hajah, and Moumina and Khalita and all that but so those are cultural
deficiencies That actually interferes with a true religion of Islam now, if you
don't know islam and you see a Muslim doing that you almost as aware this what
Islam teaches? it's not the case. So the culture interferes with that kind of
stuff and also the culture. The culture, the way the culture is, is like some of
the culture when it is in Africa that women are not supposed to express
themselves. Women are not supposed to be hoarders of personal property and islam
Say women can own her own property and woman and her husband can have a
conversation. All that is required for both parties is that when the husband
speaks to the wife he should be respectful, when woman speaks to the husband
should be respectful. And if there are kids do not do the arguing in their
presence because why they will learn from you are the highest teacher, in front
of your kids so all of those things. Some of these practices of clash with
Islamic culture and tradition.
Malissa Lamah 28:03
Okay, and let me (indecipherable) into Islamic beliefs, what do you see
happening in our, like community a lot that you think should be changed or
doesn't go along with Islamic beliefs,
Mohammed Dukuly 28:20
Well not just Islamic belief, I think was, honestly frankly speaking what I
don't like in our community, and I hope and pray, and I worry about this every
day that this could change.
Malissa Lamah
Yes,
28:33
Mohammed Dukuly 28:33
is is personal envy, I know it will always be there. But I have seen some other
communities where it comes to the growth of the community. They abandon personal
envy, and they promote their community and they go up because the stronger
people you have in the community the better for that community, but for us, yes,
we can We get pretend, we say, Oh, yes. But we'll see one of us excelling, way
up. We do everything to bring that person down. As a result, we all remain down.
There's nobody up, who is the most powerful person, in our community in
Minnesota, if you ask this question, people will be scratching your head,
because it doesn't exist, not that we don't have the potential or the capacapacity to be strong. But it's because of the fear that if I show myself off or
if I begin to help the people I become the target for that, so why would I want
to risk my, my, my future on it, because I went ahead and so some people back
down they back off. So this is a negative self that exists in our community, and
I wish and pray that this can change, hopefully that can change. And so and then
also, and that is, is is what I consider self centeredness. You know, so people
are more concerned about themselves. They are not concerned about the community
if the community is strong and growth definitely will be able to to address lot
of challenges. That immigrant communities are faced with but because we don't
work together, we backbite each other we slander each other. And so, we bring
people who are excelling who could help us and we put eye under them and we try
to bring them down. So as a result everybody keeping their shell.
Malissa Lamah 30:17
So what do you feel like to solve that problem? What would be what stuff can be
done to fix that?
Mohammed Dukuly 30:24
I would hope that if we can make because it is going to be difficult to change
the hood of folks, if we can build institutions and educate our children that
born here to see that their success, and this their strength will be based in
community unity, and that the more people are together, the better the community
will rise and providing that kind of platform in education. I think maybe that
that's the only hope I have. But to say our community, giving what we are what I
see every day, and older folks, it's going to be difficult to change that. So if
we can get together and build institutions that can, can, can can move the minds
of our children. I think that will help a lot. Because why I am saying this
because the children born here they're open minded. They are open minded, and
they understand the issues. And then also parents must be willing to sit down
with their kids to actually talk because some of them because of the cultural
practices, they don't even want to listen to the child to say anything you can't
ask me this question you ca-this is disrespectful? But most of these parents
have never had even one minute opportunity to sit with their kids and tell them
what is what is do-able and what is not acceptable in the African culture. What
is that culture we don't teach it to our kids the children don't our culture is.
So we build institutions that can really, truly address this issue. I think we
We have hope and only hope is our children, people like you and so and so forth.
Malissa Lamah 32:06
Okay. And do you believe that there's cultural division in the West African
Muslim community?
Mohammed Dukuly 32:11
Of course there is.
Malissa Lamah
How so?
32:13
Mohammed Dukuly 32:14
there is there is there was this going to always be. Yeah the Quran says yeah,
so God says that that division and that diverse view will always exist among us
is going to be there, you know, but how do we use that divsion is what matters.
There is always going to be the various view diversify communities, within the
cultural communities there is, you know, and by the way, the question of
addressing one of the one of the problems we have that I don't like to see
addition to, you know, is is, is tribalism. tribalism is the foundation For the
destruction of our community, yeah, tribalism is a people, people. Some people
think that their tribe is more superior to other tribes. They disdain they treat
people with disdain, with disrespect. My tribe is more superior. And Islam,
Islam says the most important person in the sight of Allah, is the one who fears
God best. It's not the tribe. It's not Arab. It's not white. It's not yellow.
It's not cream. It's just the person who fears Allah, the best is the best. And
so if we are Muslims, that will subside to the Quran, we cannot go and promote
tribal, tribal collections. Tribalism and so and so forth. You can use the
tribe for the unity of the community but you can't use the tribe to divide
people. So the question you ask, yes, of course there is a tribal division, in
our Mn- in our community and that is based on how people feel about themselves.
That (indecipherable) that I just mentioned. So there is. And there's going to
always be, particularly depending on the type of leadership we produce our
community some of us we don't subscribe to tribalism. I don't care about tribe.
I do respect my tribe. I do honor my tribe, but the tribe will not step in my
way in serving the rest of the community, that will not happen. I will not
subscribe myself to anything like that.
Malissa Lamah 34:25
And do you think tribalism, tribalism is the issue because people are ignorant?
Or what do you think tribalism is a thing
Mohammed Dukuly 34:35
ignorance is one thing and then the other thing is the way that the culture had
been practiced. You see, this is in Africa we see in Africa. Madingo mosque,
Fula mosque. Susu mosque, you know, yes, they have this Vai mosque, Vende mosque
you know, all the Limba mosque, Marka mosque I'm just saying it so so. So now
people who are used to this from home and the people came here most people came
here they just gone to work and some people are already old or were old when
they came here. So to get them divorce their mind from that kind of practice it
becomes difficult. So even if it's not too harm, okay, but because the used to
doing it it's like become normal kind of stuff for them, you know, because they
grew up seeing this and they normalize it. They normalize it but islamically
it's wrong is wrong because there should be no no tribal box. That's why we say
Masjid al-Hab? We canât say- we couldâve even posted Abraham name on
there... we say Masjid Abraham in Mecca we say masjid Al - Hab they said
Baytullah, Allahâs house. Because all the messages (indecipherable) the Quran
says (indecipherable) all the mosque belong to Allah. But we canât keep saying
this tribal mosque this tribal and so that is a huge problem. Ignorance is one
thing, but also cultural practices. To put -solidify the kind of practice we
see.
Malissa Lamah 36:23
Okay. And from your point of view, how has Islam changed, for instance, like
your generation compared to now? How is it changed, like practices and other
things like that?
Mohammed Dukuly 36:35
Oh, there's a lot of change that has taken place in my lifetime. When we were
growing up, we didn't see the level of extremist behavior that we see today.
People killing the themselves the private women of learning and why are people
so angry? And and what we see Muslim countries, imposing more harm upon their
own brothers and sisters we didn't see this this was not what it called. We
didn't see this before. And the people become hard hearted. Today to the point
of if Allah has not promise to protect Islam. This was the basis for which Islam
could've have been annihilated completely from the surface of the earth. Because
of the way people have gone to the extreme. The Prophet.. told us.
(indecipherable) I treat you to be aware of manners of exaggeration in the
religion it say don't go there it (indecipherable) it say because it destroy
nations before you it destroy nations before you so there's a lot of changes we
didn't have this kind of fear you traveling before it was not a problem Islam or
some Muslims have been the response the cause you go to the airport we have to
spend hours you could go to the airport five minutes to the boarding time and
just go check in and you gone. Today you have to go two hours if not four hours
in order to be able to catch a flight. So there are a lot of changes that has
taken place. And also even in the practice. Yes, Islam is growing. But but but
but the love, we saw our fathers our mothers demonstrating for their neighbors
for their friends, and show of the care that they had, you know, we don't see
the level of care like that, you know, we become self centered, everything is
about us. It's not about others, you know. So those things are gradually fading
fading away, and so and so forth. You know the practice just in this America yes
Islam is growing. You see people practicing Islam is now magnified in the world
maybe 10 times or 100 times more, yes. But also there are a lot of negative
things associated with it. And because of the behavior of some of the Muslims,
you know, some of the Muslim Yes, there are people who are not Muslim who
provoke Muslims to do what it called something, but you don't have to go to the
extreme to make your point. If you just practice what Islam teaches, I think
that can address the issues of the non Muslims attacking us. But if you leave
the the true practice of Islam, because somebody provoke you and do something,
of course, you're going to have these negative consequences.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
39:37
Mohammed Dukuly 39:37
And so, as a result of that, even as some may say moderate Muslims, what do you
call moderate Muslims? Muslims aren't supposed to be moderate. We supposed to be
balanced, we don't go to the extreme, we are not weak to the point where we
allow people to aggress us but if people are aggressive anyone responding we
should respond in kind, you can't go to the extreme. That's what Islam says but
see what people do. If you go and kill, you Taliban in Afghanistan, who you
killing? If you reach way in Iran, who you killing? Yourbrothers. In Yemen, who
you killing? Your brothers. You never going to have chance to go to the Western
world and create war there, you don't have the capacity. So who are you killing?
So why are you killing people for? Is it because of Islam? I said No, it's
because of political reasons they have their own because if it was Islam we will
not fight. We will not fight because Allah is sufficient for all of us.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
40:35
Mohammed Dukuly 40:36
So it's because of political reasons people are fighting but they claim, they
are fighting in the name of Islam, and that is frightening. That is frightning
for all of us.
Yes. Do you believe that media plays a part in that?
Of course they do. Because one of the one of the problems that we have I don't
know because of political reasons. Look just recently at one of the military
campuses here a white guy, attack and killed people there. And he was never
charged with terrorism. A Saudi guy went and do the same thing perhaps less on
the lesser scale. Oh, it was called a terrorist. So so. And not only that,
because I have sat in forums. The security in the United States. All the
security agencies here in the United States. They are of the opinion. And this
is based on facts. research that they've done, that they white extremism, post
more harm to the United States. Then the al Qaeda, ISIS, all of them combined.
They not even 5% of the threat to the United States, you know and so and so
forth but is that is not highlighted? Why is that so and because sometimes the
media plays a major role in it, only of recently been trying to change a little
bit. But before anything to happen it terrorism, anything that happen is a
muslim terrorist. Christians commit aggression every day even today as I speak
to you in New Jersey. These guys went to the Jewish people Kosher shop where
they can do the what it called they slaughter the meat in a Halal way and they
to walk in there and kill people there. And they are never going to be called
extremists or terrorists. What are terrorism is if you use any form of
aggression to intimidate people is a form of terrorism. And you have gun you
going to the shop the man came down from UHaul truck with a gun and walk in the
shop and start shooting people. And then not only that they're also accusing
them of having also kill another group of people, you know, even if they die in
the process of exchaning gunfire with the police. So this is where we see the
difference, you know, and that is that you're targeting a particular community.
You know, and so the media play a major role in this.
Malissa Lamah 43:22
yes media does play a major role. And in your opinion as Imom, do you think that
Islam has room for both feminism and LGBTQ?
Mohammed Dukuly 43:33
let's address the first question. Yes, Islam. Islam doesn't take away the rights
of women faces. Islam is the religion that came to actually grant freedom to
women. One of the reasons why the disbelievers are fighting the Prophet.... is
because they believe that women in the Arabian peninsula in the world by the
time, that women were property for men. And to the point the men were creating
(indecipherable) for women it mean that means the man could divorced a woman.
But she was not allowed to marry to somebody else. And he's not fully married to
her. So she would hang in a abyss it's not okay to abolish all of that. So the
Prophet... Mohammed was asked about the status of women in Islam. It said we are
equal when they pray the way we pray, they fast we fast. They do the work of
Allah, Allah cannot diminish their reward because they're woman. You know the
response from the Arabs? They said well what is the matter with this man? Women
are our property, you come and you want to make them equal to us? So Islam came
to actually abolish those practices. And one of the things that Islam also did
Is that in the Christian they've always accused women, a woman was the reason
for the downfall of men from heavens. The Quran said no, Adam is the one
that...Adam is the one who disobeyed God and he transgressed. You see how Islam
came and exonerated the woman? Now when it come to your last portion of your
last question. Islam does not support I speak to you frankly, Islam does not
support the the LGBT teaching. Okay. And the gays or lesbians that is Islam does
not have room for is Islam frowns on this. That's the truth. Islam frowns on
this. Having said that, the only thing we can't do number one we could we could
speak against it. Number two, you could also hate it in your heart. But we are
not in a in a society where you can take any action against it. So what I'm
saying here, we have to understand the society in which we live is a society
that is free for everybody. We are not in Saudi Arabia, where Islamic Sharia is
the principal law for the governance of this of the country. Here, that's a
freedom of choice to choose what you want to do or what you want to be. But in
Islamic culture, We are confined to Islamic principles and that Islamic
principle frowns on the issuea of lesbianism so Islam does not support that
islam does not support that. But I also understand that we are not living in the
Sharia Governed country, you have to understand that
Malissa Lamah 47:18
yeah free world.
Mohammed Dukuly
Yeah,
47:19
Malissa Lamah 47:20
okay. This is the last question. Now that you're grown up, and understand Islam
better. What is the meaning of Islam to you? And is it a way of life?
Mohammed Dukuly 47:27
Well, to me, Islam is a way of life. I walk Islam, I Islam mom, I sleep Islam, I
wake up Islam, I eat Islam I greet Islam. I extend my relationship to people
because of Islam. You know, and I spread Islam. I teach Islam, I love Islam. And
Islam is made the principal covenant principle for me as a Muslim is my way of
life. Islam means total submission to the will of the Almighty. And sometimes
people just stop there. What does that mean? It means believing in the Almighty
and subscribing to all of his teachings. So it does not just mean to do a five
daily prayer or give charity or fast Ramadan or go to Hajj or believe in a...It
means everything that Allah and His Prophet to us to do. That what it means
Islam. They Prophet talk about our neighbors, how to be kind to them, when they
are sick, visit them when they are hungry, give them food to eat, when they need
loan, give it to them. When they die attend their federal, so that what Islam
means and that islam means to also find ways to take care of the poor, to take
care of the needy to take the take care other half rest and down truly in the
dust. That is what Islam means. Islam means helping hand to maybe to someone
stranded. Someone in debt someone maybe under custody, somebody who is a
wayfarer, maybe a student who does not have means to help himself or herself,
maybe to pay their tuition in order to (indecipherable) somebody who does not
have means of transportation, somebody who is hungry somewhere, a beggar take
care of them. That is what Islam means, that's what Islam means. Islam means to
be respectful to others Islam means to take care of your family, your spouse,
your children, that what Islam is. Islam means the one who represent the Prophet
Muhammad SAW in the most noble way that what Islam is, it's not just Allah Akbar
(indecipherable) no their all, that,what it means. So if you say I am a Muslim,
a Muslim, the objective right now it means one with home. Everyone is safe.
Yeah, it's not just one who submit to the world. That's what it means. One with
home everyone is safe. And so that's what it means to be a Muslim. You know, so
your neighbor doesn't have to be a Muslim. They have right over you. They don't
have to be a Muslim. And so that is what Islam means.
Malissa Lamah 50:18
Okay, well, that wraps up our interview. Do you have any questions for me?
Mohammed Dukuly 50:26
The only question I have for you what this interview means to you.
Malissa Lamah 50:32
I believe that this interview is very important. Because once we upload it on
the Augsburg website, in the future, other people can see it and see what our
culture was really about. If there's no one to speak for us, they can listen to
this interview and see what Madingo people are about what Islam is really about.
How are West African Muslims in Minnesota are who are they really about? Because
in Minnesota I feel like is mostly about East Africans, and West Africans aren't
really given the voice to talk, so I hope that this interview will help for
people in the future and people now who are in need of it.
Mohammed Dukuly 51:07
Yeah. So I think want to make a closing statement and that statement is that
West African community In Minnesota, they are not liability on the government.
There are, We have doctors, we have nurses, we have healthcare workers. We have
people in the factories in the medical industry. We have males we have, we have
council members, we have people with good NGOs that are not just talking about.
we addressed number of health related issues educational related issues we've
make policies in the school district we change that. And so I agree with you
because most of the time that we just think about a East Africans but West
Africans are Making enormous contribution towards a society they're taxpayers,
they're homeowners, and we have kids here and so and so forth. So, but I believe
that we need to do more of this to be able to give voice to our community.
Malissa Lamah
Yes.
52:14
Mohammed Dukuly 52:14
Because in law, what you can't do for yourself, the law can't do for you. The
law, the law is not in a book but you, you have to do for yourself before the
law can speak for you. You know, so I fully agree with you. We have to give
voice to our community and that's why some of us have been doing so we are not
just here because we want to impose on a governor of United States or Minnesota
but we are serving this community. Some of the leaders told me include the
senators, and that if Liberian community or the West African community were to
withdraw today? From the healthcare industry, the hospitals and nursing homes,
senior homes, the entire state would break down it'll collapse almost instantly.
That'll happen and so it means that we are making enormous contribution, you
know, so we need to let the public know that. Yeah, I think this kind of
interview actually gave us the platform to do that. So, thank you so much for
bringing that up. I am always willing to come, maybe some of your students, if
you have some time, you can come You can come in there and let them ask
questions about cultural tradition and experience in Minnesota. I think that
would be a good thing to do.
Malissa Lamah 53:33
Yes. And thank you so much for coming for this interview today.
Mohammed Dukuly
Thank you.
53:36
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good evening, everybody. I'm Esteban Perez. It is Tuesday, April 2 2019, I'm the oral
historian for this project, Muslim educators in Minnesota. We are here at Augsburg University
Library for an oral history interview with Mohammed Sallam. How many of you ... Show more
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good evening, everybody. I'm Esteban Perez. It is Tuesday, April 2 2019, I'm the oral
historian for this project, Muslim educators in Minnesota. We are here at Augsburg University
Library for an oral history interview with Mohammed Sallam. How many of you can introduce
yourself to the recording giving your full name and when, when and where you were born, if you
like.
Mohamed Sallam 0:21
Sure. My name is Mohamed Kemal Sallam. I was I am 36 years old. I was born outside of
Chicago and 1982, in April 1982. And I was raised here in Minnesota. In southern Minnesota. I
grew up in a small town south of the Twin Cities called Mankato, Minnesota, it's about 90 miles
southwest of the Twin Cities. I spent big chunks of my childhood traveling between the United
States and Egypt where my parents are born and raised. But grew up for the most part here in
in Minnesota.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:53
Cool, thank you for that. I guess one of the first questions would be where where are you from,
you know? Does it usually depend on the context for your or do you usually say I was born in
Chicago, but now I'm from Minnesota? What do you usually say?
Mohamed Sallam 1:00
(Transcription needed, audio tracker deleted original transcription.)
Esteban Perez Cortez 2:43
Yeah -Mohamed Sallam 2:44
-- or who I think I'm talking to
Esteban Perez Cortez 2:46
It can be such a complex answer to such a simple question.
Mohamed Sallam 2:46
Absolutely.
Esteban Perez Cortez 2:50
Yeah, I definitely feel that. And then I think you mentioned your Egyptian right? So that's what -is that what you would say your background is, you're like Egyptian American.
Mohamed Sallam 2:58
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, I think you know the -- just as complicated as Americanness is.
Uhh, Egyptianness in the United States is similarly complicated. So in Egypt, I'm Egyptian
through and through, and probably even more so the --- my parents come from certain parts of
Cairo, right so it's there are even more qualifiers to add based on kind of where where we might
be or who we might be talking to. But yeah, my parents both grew up in Cairo and immigrated to
United States in the -- you know, in the late 1970s, early 1980s. And, and so, in that respect, I'm
ethnically and in some ways nationally, my other nationality and other kind of affiliation is
Egyptian as well as American.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:40
Okay. So did did you grow up learning a couple different languages or just umm -Mohamed Sallam 3:45
I did yeah. I mean, one of the -- so I grew up speaking Arabic until, you know, until I went to
school and then of course, Arabic became kind of the de facto language of the home. And,and,
and English was the kind of language of the school and friends. but yeah, growing up my
parents, having come to the United States shortly before I was born, and you know them having
a, you know, a nice, a nice handy and neat family of four before I was born to, of teenage
children so my siblings and if there's a big gap in age between myself and my two other siblings.
and so they had come and settled with this young family to the United States and my father was
I think the only one who had considerable English language because of his, his, his work as an
inst- as a professor.So Eng -- Arabic had to be the language of the home for for quite a long
time before my parents and my siblings picked it up. And yeah, and now it's sort of operates
interchangeably so when I interact with my folks, it's, it's, it's an a mix of Arabic in English and
when I interact with my siblings, it's mainly English but, but depending on who else we're talking
to, it might be in Arabic or both.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:00
Yeah, ok. we'll skip over the, how'd your family end up in Minnesota question will go to your
educational background --- Can you tell me a little bit about that?
Mohamed Sallam 5:07
Oh sure,
Yeah absolutely. I grew up on a college tow -- My dad was college Professor so I grew up on a
college, in a college town in Southern Minnesota in Mankato. my dad taught at Minnesota State
University Mankato, it was called Mankato state at the time.
Esteban Perez Cortez 5:20
Yeah -Mohamed Sallam 5:21
My sister, It was interesting -- I have to tell a little bit about my, the rest of my family in order to
better understand why on Earth I would've remained there. My, my dad had this sort of general
policy at the time, unlike now, most University faculty were able to send their kids to school at
the same institution -Esteban Perez Cortez 5:30
Yeah -Mohamed Sallam 5:41
-- for a full tuition waiver. So you had all -- pretty much everything except for fees covered and
this is in the early 2000s when the cost of tuition was not as ridiculously high as it is now. And
so my father basically did this thing where he said to all three of us, he said "look unless you
can find something else to study that you can't study at MSU Mankato, you're going to MSU
Mankato -- it just makes the right, financial sense for everyone in the family. So we want to help
you and this is how we can help you."
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:10
Yeah -Mohamed Sallam 6:11
So I wanted to I wanted to study Political Science and International Relations. And my dad
basically said, "I know, I know that you can do that because I have a colleague who teaches in
that department. So you're going to stay here." My brother wanted to be an architect an artist.
So he, he got, he got to leave. My sister became a computer scientist and myself, who ended
up completing a Bachelor's degree in International Relations and a Master's degree in Ethnic
Studies. I decided to stay so that's that's the sort of the early part of the background. And then I
and then I found work at Augsburg University for about 12 years well, but halfway through my
12 year period of the 12 year stint at Augsburg, I enrolled in a PhD program in International
Development and Education at the University of Minnesota in the College of Education so that's
the rest of my educational background and completed my Doctorate in 2015.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:07
You got your masters from Mankato?
Mohamed Sallam 7:08
I got my Bachelor's degree and my Master's degree at the at Minnesota State University
Mankato.
Esteban Perez Cortez 7:13
What years were you here at Augsburg, working here?
Mohamed Sallam 7:15
I started working at Augsburg in 2006. I completed my master's degree in 2000 -- in the
previous year of 2005. So I was living here in the Twin Cities for about a year, my wife was
finishing her Bachelor's degree and she had been recently admitted to a Masters and PhD
program at the University of Minnesota. So she was she had her future kind of set. And so I
moved here to find work, in between my Master's program and then what at the time I thought
was just a quick turnaround to apply for a PhD program and to enroll very quickly. But that didn't
happen right away. So I moved to Minnesota -- I moved to different cities in 2006? 2005 and
then in 2000 -- in the summer 2006, I started working here at Augsburg. and then in 2011 in the
summer, fall of 2011, I enrolled at, at the University of Minnesota as a Doctoral student, as a
PhD student in International Development and then completed the program in the spring of
2015. And then worked, completed my time as the Director of the Pan Afrikan Center here at
Augsburg through June of 2018.
Esteban Perez Cortez 8:24
Okay, alright. And then, so now, now we're going to be kind of diving into the whole aspect of
education -Mohamed Sallam 8:25
Yeah, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 8:29
-- Since it's the focus of the project.
Mohamed Sallam 8:34
Sure -Esteban Perez Cortez 8:36
A question for you. How do you define an edu -- How do you define education, I guess?
Mohamed Sallam 8:40
Yeah, yeah, this is a really difficult question. I think to answer succinctly -- answering succinctly
is not my strongest suit. So this is I think... I think for me, what makes an -- I think education, I
think education is experience. Right. I you know, while I was here at Augsburg and in my current
role at the Higher Education Consortium of Urban Affairs (HECUA) are -- the primary focus of
our work is around experiential education, whether it's through on campus, you know, through
hands on classroom based work or community based sort of study abroad or international
education, we view and I've tended to view education as through the lens of experience. And I
think of when I do that, then that I think of their worth and what what constitutes educative
experiences, what are exper -- What are -- just any kind of experiences because, you know,
they're all kinds of different sorts of experiences and types of experiences. But what is it that
makes an experience educative? And for me, the thing that I continue to come back to is the
element of or the opportunity to enhance one's personal development, one's professional
development, and then to develop one sensibility around their role in broader society or their
role in relationship that others so if an experience can, if an experience, is designed to produce
an enhancement in, in someone's professional development or an enhancement in someone's
personal development or an enhancement in someone's ability to better understand the social
world or the political world or the environmental the world around them, then that is an educative
experience. And so, I guess by, by, by extension an, an education is, is those collection of
experiences an aggregate that can produce some kind of shift enhancement transformation,
change in in a person's experience, or in a person's worldview or another person or in a
person's relationship to others.
Esteban Perez Cortez 10:55
Ok, and then with that do you think, there is -- or how would you describe the difference with an
education in the educator lens and then one then like the ,would like the correct one be like the
Islamic lens? or like a -Mohamed Sallam 11:15
Oh, yeah, I think you know for me some of that has to do with my -- I think my upbringing some
of that has to do with sort of my own looking worldview in relationship to sort of faith traditions
and religions impact and influence on one's practice as an educator. So, you know, I grew up, I
grew up in a household where my father was an educator, my mother, to some degree was also
an educator. My father came out I mean, he was a sort of a trained scientist who's a physicist,
but also he grew up in a moderately somewhat, yeah, I guess I'd say conservative Muslim
household at basically in the shadow of the Al Azhar University in Cairo, so he grew up
spending his almost all of his free hours and days and time with, with you know, kind of
spending time in Al Azhar learning and studying. And then as an adult he went back -- so for,
you know to get a to get a kind of a credential, almost like a second master's degree in Islamic
Studies and comparative religion. And so for me when I, you know, growing up, I understood
everything is education, everything is educative and simply the Islamic quote, unquote, "Islamic
worldview" was one that was informed by experiences like ones my dad had of growing up in a
country or growing up in a place where the majority of the people around you are Muslim, where
the landscape of education was deeply influenced by Islamic history in that place. And so,
anything you know that might would always -- I mean, I remember hearing my dad kind of say
this all the time where it's like, you know, the prophetic, the prophetic traditions that suggests
that, you know, Muslims should be implored to go and learn and acquire knowledge anywhere
in the world even if it's in a remote place like China right sort of the proximity to from Arabia to
China at the time when that those words were uttered it was quite vast and far away and and
distant and so on, one should see a quest for knowledge as as a human practice, but also as
something deeply, deeply, deeply ingrained in ones sort of Muslim identity, your, your quest for
knowledge that should you know, as something that, that is what makes you a Muslim, as well
as what makes you a person. I mean, I don't, yeah, I mean, I feel differently about those same
words now than I then I once did, but I think yeah, to some degree, this idea of what role does
education play? What role does teaching and learning play in my life? Yeah, a big part of that is
shaped by the, the teaching and learning environments that my parents came up in and also in
some ways, was both complemented and was in contradiction to the way in which I viewed an
educational experience as a kid in a public school in Minnesota, right. So, and as an educator
now and thinking about my you know, as much as I don't think of myself as a Muslim educator,
necessarily. I do feel there are a number of things, aspects of teaching and learning that are
informed by the upbringing my folks had and their relationship to their faith tradition, and also
their relationship to the place where they came from. So not just about religion, but but also
place. So that's kind of a long answer.
Esteban Perez Cortez 14:41
No, that's okay. We're looking for a long answer. Let's see. I guess from here. We kind of
touched up a little bit on the next questions I had, so that's okay. So now we can go into your
time here at Augsburg -Mohamed Sallam 14:56
Yeah -Esteban Perez Cortez 14:57
So I mean, what -- how would you say like Minneapolis has a pretty decent size Muslim
population would you say?
Mohamed Sallam 15:03
Yeah, sizable I think. Yeah. Larger than small community that I grew up in college town. Yeah,
yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:09
Okay, so with that, so you were the director of Pan Afrikan Student Services. So you've had
Muslim students, you have an African American students -Mohamed Sallam 15:18
Yeah, which are not mutually exclusive. Right?
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:21
Yeah -Mohamed Sallam 15:21
There were certainly some African Americans who happen to be Muslim.
Esteban Perez Cortez 15:24
Yeah. Yeah, for sure. International students, sometimes I would imagine, yup. So did you ever
see, I'm just curious about that dichotomy of it like a Muslim and an educator. Did you ever see
them both -- A lot of the time was it working hand in hand? Was it one being an educator taking
over was at being Muslim taking over a lot of time there was a mix of both or do you ever think
you had any issues with that?
Mohamed Sallam 15:52
Yeah. Well, no, no, I think you know, it was one of these things where when you in many similar
ways, right? The parallel that I that I think about here, as you asked the question is the same it
is this idea of inhabiting both, you know, inhabiting a sort of an ethnic Egyptian Arab identity,
and also being an American citizen, and growing up in the state of Minnesota, and so the kind of
navigating between what does it mean, this idea that you know, that I am simultaneously an
Egyptian-American person who happens to be Muslim who also is born and raised here in the
United States that all of these pieces are simultaneous. So I think to some degree as much as
perhaps I'm not as devoutly religious as, as others or perhaps more deeply religious than
others, right? That at the same time, I think my, my worldview and my outlook as someone who
happens to be Muslim moderately practicing who you know who's, you know, who in some
ways, I guess is some -- not very religious, but also in other ways not non, non-religious, and
not overly religious or not very religious. That I think my role as an educator, those were, those
are those happen to be areas that, you know, I wasn't engaging one or the other and working
with students. Um, as you said, you know, my my primary charge and working here at Augsburg
was to work with students of African descent, regardless of national identity, regardless of
affiliation, and so forth. And there are ways that I think, in engaging with African American
students my Americanness was probably subconsciously and consciously engaged and, and
leveraged as a way to build a, build a relationship with a student. The fact that the fact that my
parents were immigrants was something that I think for a lot of students that I work with whose
parents were also immigrants, in some cases, perhaps whether their parents are immigrants
from Africa, the Middle East or not, that there are certain experiences that and because of the
close proximity and age that there are certain experiences that I had that some of my students
were also were having. That that was another way to make those, to build those connections
with students. So it was less I think, in large, it was less about my faith tradition, as opposed to it
as an educator, it's really about how do you make those connections with your students in ways
that make it possible to, to build the kind of, you know, to kind of meet the goal of the
relationship. So if I'm in an advising capacity working with a student, the goal of the relationship
is to ensure that I can be the most effective advisor and that the student can gather as much
information as possible that's necessary in order to move from year to year, from semester to
semester, towards graduation. So for me it was like what do I need to do to build up this
relationship so that we can be the most effective advisor, advisee. And a lot of that had to do
with the sort of the relational aspects who was student is who I am. My age, students age,
certain interests. the student, my interest, students interests, and then of course, there's the task
at hand and then all of that other all of the other stuff, the relational pieces, help us in some
ways, help us stay on task. And I think in a in an instruction -- when I'm working in an
instructional capacity with a student, it's a lot the same. It's about making the content relatable,
and some of doing that has to do with me as a person as an Egyptian American as a Muslim,
American, etc, etc. And some of that has to do with my training as a, as an educator, my training
as a, as a Middle East North Africa (MENA) specialist with a you know, as an emphasis around
gender and and development policy right? So there, there are certain aspects of who I am in
terms of my experience and my training that you kind of -- it's like a toolbox, that you open up
that toolbox and you look around you say, Well, what does this situation called for? And that's
not about picking up or putting down my Muslimness. But it's about picking up and putting down
the things that are going to get me to reach my student in the most effective and, and genuine
ways possible. And the goal being Of course, that if it's an advisory capacity, it's pretty clear.
And if it's an instructional capacity, it's also pretty clear. So for me, it's really about being
complex people as we are we all have a toolkit for how to engage the world around us. And my
tool kit is just made up of different things than someone else's. Someone else's toolkit.
Esteban Perez Cortez 20:50
So the, the emphasis being a lot on educator aspect. Yep. And then just trying to get rid of you
know, I, you just happen to be Muslim, but I am an educator -Mohamed Sallam 21:00
I'm an educator and -Esteban Perez Cortez 21:01
yeah -Mohamed Sallam 21:01
And in some ways, that's the, j -- to use the sort of practically oriented language, right, that's the
job of the -- job is to is to kind of meet that need. and in some ways as long as I think we do it as
educators, we do it genuinely and authentically to ourselves. That that gives us the best chance
to be seen genuinely and authentically by your students so that the student doesn't look at you
and say, Okay, well I guess you know, full of shit but that you know, that there's a genuine like,
we are working towards, you know, working towards the same goals to get them so yeah, I think
that's part of the role of the educator, a teacher.
Esteban Perez Cortez 21:37
Have you ever had any issues that -- has anybody ever had a problem with that I have you ever
had any parents or students be like, you're an educator, but you're Muslim, you don't want you
to tell me this? Or was like a coworker? They're like, you know, but you're, you're Muslim. And
then obviously, you know, you probably told them this or something like that.
Mohamed Sallam 21:59
Yeah, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 22:00
Or is it just like, you know, everybody at Augsburg is like, you know, he's an educator, first of all,
I trust him, you know everything.
Mohamed Sallam 22:06
Um, I think like my last answer, I think you can, I've experienced this, I've experienced certain.
I've experienced them also simultaneously, right. So in in the same even in the same interaction
in the same encounter, you have a colleague or friend or an acquaintance or co worker, or in
some cases of students, not so much families. I think a lot of a lot of times I was working with
students who were were oftentimes really in working independently from their families. I don't
know I think that to some degree, a lot of underrepresented students are are, you know, they're
often kind of going it alone, at least from their folks or from, you know, their, their parents or
other you know, related family in their, in their life. So, but I would say yeah, there are there
have been time there have been undoubtedly have been times where there are certain
assumptions made about who I am and, and not always in the most negative ways, but certainly
I mean, in terms of frequency, the largest number of, of, of net, of interactions are, are
moderately negative interactions where it's not it's not the most disruptive interaction that I could
ever have where it's just the sort of outward racist Islamophobic, Xenophobia, you know,
treatment or rhetoric or someone calls you a name or someone, you know, ascribes a certain
kind of really like, you know, that really, at least in terms of my work right here like you know,
nobody throwing, you know, you're a terrorist at you or you're this or you're that or, you know,
you're a terrible person anything like that, but definitely been there many, many interactions in
my you know, I might, you know, during my time here at Augsburg, where, where it was either a
faculty, another faculty member of staff or a student even carrying around assumption about my
worldview, based on my, my faith tradition, right mind sort of religious identity, this idea that, oh,
because you are Muslim, therefore. So and not necessarily framed in a purely negative way, but
just sort of like now that I know you're Muslim, you happen to exist in this other world out here
this other camp where you carry around certain ideas about the way the world works, that
perhaps those aren't, that's not true, maybe it's not true, oftentimes it isn't. Or oftentimes, it's an
overly simplified way, or I think there are a lot of times where colleagues or students or staff
even would assume, based on my religious affiliation, that some generic piece of Muslim fact
out there in the world something I don't know about praying or the five pillars of Islam or, or
fasting, that there are certain assumptions made about who I am as an individual related to
some abstract notion of of what a Muslim is or what a Muslim ought to be. And some of those
things can be more problematic than others. Early early on my time here at Augsburg I had, my
wife and I, who doesn't work for Augsburg, participated in a community gathering where my wife
was sharing at the time she wore a Hijab. She was sharing with someone who works, someone
who had I worked with here at Augsburg, they were having a conversation about this sort of ill
treatment that she had experienced by virtue of her, by virtue of her headcover, head covering,
her Hijab. And so she had shared this story. And this person had said to my wife, well, don't you
think.. Don't you think if you you know, it, you know if, if you were just smarter, right? If you were
to make them smarter decision when you just simply take that off, and your life would be much
easier, you know, don't you think you kind of you're, you're asking for an you know, if the
general if the general view is a negative one of people who have look like you, then if you just
didn't look like them, wouldn't your quality of life improve? And she said it in a very different way
this person, but those are the kinds of interactions that, that are, I would say much more
negative of -- they're less frequent, they happen but they're less frequent. But the things that
happen on a pretty regular basis where someone assumes something about your identity which
is still in the same category as, as the really negative, albeit pretty mean thing of, well, if, you
know, why don't you just take that off? You know, why don't you just stop being like those
people and everything will be okay. They're in the same category but I you know, I would say in
terms of frequency, mostly what happens is someone just simply saying, Oh, your family's from
Egypt, therefore all your family's, you know, you're, you're Muslim. So this must be how you do
things, and then insert any number of, you know, big, you know, big, generic, superficial things
about Islam and Muslims that may or may not apply to me at all, personally or individually.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:07
Let's see, where can we go next? Would you mind telling me, So you got a PhD a couple of
years ago?
Mohamed Sallam 27:14
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:15
2015, you said correct?
Mohamed Sallam 27:16
2015, yup.
Esteban Perez Cortez 27:17
2015. Can you tell me a little bit more about your work with that?
Mohamed Sallam 27:21
Sure, absolutely. Yeah. And I think in some ways, they're sort of relates to some of the some of
the challenges A lot of you know, a lot of people who have been Muslim, or a lot of Muslim
Americans experience of having to, you know, the work around how we represent marginalized
communities, and even a, you know, and are underrepresented communities in this case, you
know, thinking about Muslim Americans as often times marginalized. the work that I do in the
work that I did, as a doctoral student, and remain doing is, is around the kind of the impacts of
international development policy, on girls education, on education, and gender, really, in the
Middle East and North Africa. So most of my research looks at the ways in which education for
girls and women in the Middle East, North Africa is represented. it's represented in the literature,
it's represented in policy documents, it's represented in the projects that big multilateral
agencies like the UN, and like the IMF and World Bank fund. So the work that I do and the work
that I did his doctoral student work there continue to do really focuses on trying to better
understand how are the experiences of women and girls in the Egyptian context, but also more
broadly, across the Middle East, North Africa, how are they represented? And oftentimes, I
mean, I think the thing that motivated me to seek out this work, is this idea that, by an large, the
experiences of women and girls are represented through this sort of deficit oriented paradigm.
where the reason why the rest of the world mainly the United States, North America and
Western Europe, the reason why Western Europeans and North Americans ought to care about
what's happening to those people over there is because of some deficiency in a culture, in a
world view of those people over there, that makes it less likely for girls and women to seek a
similar or to be able to access a similar educational level, to have access to the labor market, to
have access to a long fruitful, productive life, like men have access to and like boys and men
have access to. so that's the work that I mean, that's that's kind of the the at the very kind of
granular level, what I what I do in my research, what my research kind of focuses on, but a lot of
it is really born out of, in some ways, being a Muslim American, being a Muslim in the United
States of being an Egyptian-American, having to navigate these sort of multiple realities, where,
with the, you know, the social context at large, in some ways, the global context, much like the
way we tend to view the rest of the world tends to view the experiences of women and girls in
the Middle East, North Africa, is, is defined by these very broad generalizations. And the level of
nuance that exists about the individual lives of girls and women and Egypt is limited. All up until
very recently, the the individual kind of the, the level, the level of our understanding of the
individual experiences, which I think probably to some extent, what's motivated you to do this
project, you know, the things that we know, the ways that we've understand the experiences of
the individual people who happen to be Muslim and, or Arab, or and or Middle Eastern, or, and,
or whatever, is quite limited. And so I think the things that motivated me to sort of seek out this
particular research topic and to really, and really to grow in as a researcher in these areas,
some of that has to do with my family and relationship to certain parts of Egypt, where I work.
But a lot of it also has to do with this idea of representation, and who's experienced matters and
who gets to articulate what matters about someone else's experience. And so those are things
that are dear to me, as a person of color as an Egyptian American, as a Muslim American, but
those are all those things that are really, I'm really curious about as a researcher, so those are
things that also informed by my research and teaching and practice.
Esteban Perez Cortez 31:26
Okay, thank you for that. Um, so with the research do -- Have you ever taught a course on it?
Have you had to do have you done workshops with it to kind of spread? Because I mean, I think
if I can gather so far, first and foremost, you are an educator. So what have you done anything
with that?
Mohamed Sallam 31:48
Yeah -Esteban Perez Cortez 31:49
You know, can you tell me some, some background with that?
Mohamed Sallam 31:52
Yeah, absolutely. So, so yes, for a short while, I taught a graduate course in comparative
education at the University of Minnesota with another instructor. And one of the great benefits of
digital graduate courses, oftentimes, you get to kind of dump the really, really heavy, the really,
really heavy stuff that in some ways can be really boring for undergraduate students, or perhaps
it's so sort of, is so specialized, that it doesn't often fit in an undergraduate course curriculum,
that you get to really workshop and share your work in a graduate course. So I did have that
opportunity to sort of share my work that I was doing within a broader course with the general
course around competitive education at the University Minnesota. And then since then have
actually I've had about two and a half years is, I've been, I've been been doing a longer term
project, related around, related to some of the same themes that my research focused on. That
is a it's a long term contract with a with a, with a foundation. So I work with a consulting firm,
that's the our work is being paid for by a foundation to study the impact of a couple of girls
education projects in Egypt. And so as part of that work, there are a lot of meetings and a lot of
gatherings and a lot of kind of opportunities to sort of share out as the work grows. So in a way,
even though the project started after I finished my work, it is in some ways, a continuation of
some of the work that I was doing the work that I'm responsible for doing that project. And so
that project has given me the opportunity to both here in the United States and in Egypt, to be
able to kind of workshop and, and discuss and describe what are the broader impacts of, of this
work and to be able to share, like, you know, these are things that I think of policymakers and,
and, and, and other educators to learn about what we learned from, from existing education
programs and development. So yes, I've had some opportunity.
Esteban Perez Cortez 33:52
That's good. That sounds pretty cool.
Mohamed Sallam 33:54
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 33:57
Yeah. So now, I kind of want to dive in some of the topics on the articles I've read up for a little
bit of the research.
Mohamed Sallam 34:05
Sure.
Esteban Perez Cortez 34:06
There wasn't too much I could really find a lot in Minnesota.
Mohamed Sallam 34:09
Okay.
Esteban Perez Cortez 34:10
I can see why Maheen kind of wanted to dive into a lot of this is not a lot of scholarly work on
maybe, Muslim educators, educators that are having to be Muslim in Minnesota. So a lot of
them how to deal with like surveys and like, let's say Toronto, Canada, Belgium, the UK. So
some of the criticisms that they run into one of the studies in Toronto, you have a concept like
missing Friday prayer, mixed athletics. Yeah, like swimming, sex education being, the -- one of
the big ones. Was there any such for you here? You get either mentioned growing up or even
like here at Augsburg. At any point was there --- Did you see any any issues with with that
growing up? I mean, in either of those categories. Yep. And then just to reiterate from the
beginning, I'm not fishing for any answers.
Mohamed Sallam 35:09
No, no absolutely. Yeah, no, that makes sense. So, you know, we work at the, at the at the
university level, there's some of these aspects that are that don't, actually, they're not as much a
part of the everyday kind of discourse, right?
Esteban Perez Cortez 35:23
Yep.
Mohamed Sallam 35:23
So maybe early on in my time here at Augsburg, we had some conversations with the students,
right. So the other pieces that my role here on campus, my advising role was in was also to
serve as an advocate for students. So whether they happen to be Muslim or, or or not, if a
student came to me with a concern, my role was to be a good listener. And to kind of do my
best to advocate on behalf of that student, there was a time early on in my time here, where we
had were, there were a number of students who happen to be Muslim who brought forward a
series of, and there weren't concerns necessarily, it was like, hey, help us try to make sense of
this. We want to try to establish some space on campus to pray. And we want to have some
time set aside, like if I have class, I can leave early or something like that some dispensation for
prayer times for during class, or for Friday, prayers on one time, a week, you know, to leave
class or something like that. And most of what those conversations amounted to was simply I,
you know, I think many of the students that I was working with at the time, were very more
content with the idea that if they had a space on campus, where they could frequent, whether it
was Friday prayer or not, but that would be something that was I don't know, but I don't want to
call it a compromise, because it wasn't really conversation didn't go down like that, but it was
like, it was more along the lines of we're looking for something symbolic, from the from the
University that we hear you we see you we understand what you're, you know, we understand
your concerns and the things that you're you want us to consider. But then there was also this
piece around when your college students, there are all kinds of things that are scheduled
activity, right. And this is some of the conversations that I was having with students is to say
look, Friday, prayer, prayer times in general, fasting, I don't work, any number of athletics, any
number of other aspects of a person's life, those are all considerations that any individual makes
when they're building their schedule. So I think for university student, it's a little bit easier to
have those conversations because you're working with an adult who's, who's a legal adult,
whose autonomous who's on -- has agency on your campus, where you get to kind of work with
this with with a student and say, "Where are the needs for you? And how can I be here to
support you?" So those didn't impact me directly on this campus, Because I didn't, I wasn't
impacted. I wasn't one of those impacted communities and that was. As a kid, yes, certainly,
there were times where I where I saw, and this was an interesting time, because they all
pre-date all of these studies, I'm going to assume they pre-date all the studies, and -Esteban Perez Cortez 38:01
This one specifically, yeah.
Mohamed Sallam 38:02
Probably this one in particular. But they but the thing that they probably all have in common,
even the experience that I had as a child was this sort of, especially in the schools, is a lot of
elementary schools and teachers and principals and superintendents are looking at parents and
saying, "we have no idea what to do here." Like "we appreciate your concern. We appreciate
your, your request for a dispensation for x y&z thing related to gender segregation, of you know,
food and drink, during Ramadan time for prayer, etc, etc." But in the early 1980s, early and mid
1980s, there was an especially in a small town like Mankato, where the the only -- almost every
person who happened to be Muslim was an international student, or faculty member at the
university, with the exception of very few, maybe their children, that was probably the only
exception up, up until high school. So yes, there were many conversations with the schools that
my parents had around the food that was available in the cafeteria. During lunch, my parents did
not take me out of school to attend Friday repair. They did, they did ask us, you know, once we
were old enough to Fast during school, and then they did send notes to the school ahead of
time, so that the school did not get the impression that parents were starving their children,
right. So that there was some of those considerations as a child, I, for the most part, take a very
similar approach to the approach my parents took when I was a kid. I don't take my kids out of
school for Friday prayer, if there are days where they are available, you know, where they don't
have school on Friday will go up, which was what I did as a child. And, and those are, again,
kind of working within the other. The general constraints and considerations of one's time,
religion included, but also religion not included. So yeah, but I totally I mean, I think these are all
things when I think about the experience that some families have, and some parents have with
their schools, and the experiences of some schools having with their families, these are all
things that I've heard and experienced some of them the things that the sort of challenges that
we faced with our children in school, I have a 13 year old and almost, almost 11 year old. And
yeah, they're of that age, where it's not even really religion aside the fact that their children, kids
of color in Minnesota, in Minneapolis Public School, they're navigating all kinds of other
challenging scenarios and circumstances that as parents, maybe they're not, it's not about sex
education, or maybe it's not about swimming class, or maybe that's not about Ramadan. But
there are other things that as a parent, I'm involved with in in the schools that are that are really
on par with how important you know, they're important to my kids lives. Important to my life as a
parent.
Esteban Perez Cortez 40:57
Ok. Let's see, diving back to the educator kind of point of view, do you know of any other, or do
you know of any issues --To phrase like educators that are Muslim in Minnesota do you know of
any issues they've been having, at all? Like, Is there like a certain area for has been a rise in
racism and Islamophobia? So like, I'd say, like, in this area, that's this issue. But over here, it's
like, you know, I can't get any funding for something or, or in general, do you think there's just
like a lack of information, kind of what I mentioned earlier, just like a lack of I think that's
scholarly literature in like Minnesota, specifically? Or?
Mohamed Sallam 41:40
Yeah, I think it's, yes, I would say most because it would take me take me long enough to have
to think about those other pieces to say that maybe they're not as critical. As this this issue
around lack of information. I think the lack of information is one is the big one. I think oftentimes,
again, working in a university context for a really long time, my wife works at the University of
Minnesota, and so I have, you know, I get the some of the some of what happens at the U of M,
in right in their context and navigating some of these things with around Muslim students, not
because of her work, but just search related to the fact that she happens to be employed by that
university. I think a lot of it comes down in for a show, for example, you know, having served as
one of very few, I think, until Maheen came, I think I was one of the only professional staff who
happened to be Muslim.
Esteban Perez Cortez 42:38
Was there Fardosa?
Mohamed Sallam 42:40
One of very few. Fardosa was one of my students. So she, yeah, so -Esteban Perez Cortez 42:44
Professionally.
Mohamed Sallam 42:45
Yeah. So later, yes, yes. Yes, as a professional later, she was but I think when I came, there
were very, very few. I mean, I think there was there are two outgoing like, sen -- various senior
in terms of their career faculty members. And they were, you know, again, they were kind of on
their way out. And so they didn't, they weren't really involved in campus life. And of course, my
job was really about being a part of campus life. And so I think one of the biggest challenges
that I faced as a Muslim educator as Muslim staff person on campus is that all things Muslim,
ended up on my desk, for better or worse, and, and, and the worst was not in like, not in the
sense that it was the worst possible thing that could happen to me. But it was really about a lot
of the things were things that if you work in a university, in a professional capacity, as a staff
person, Student Affairs, academic affairs, and you know, the fi -- in financial aid or Student
Financial Services, these are things that everybody should try to figure out answers to shouldn't
just be me, right? So that was something that I think, you know, I remember one of the biggest
challenges when I first came is what do we do when Muslim Student says I don't want to take
out a loan, I don't want to take out on subsidized Stafford Loan because that unsubsidized
loans, the moment I put pen to paper is going to start accruing interest. So what do we do when
a student tells us this? Mohamed what are you going to tell us? I'm like, Look, I have no
background in financial aid. So you're asking me as a Muslim, you're not asking me as, as
someone who that expertise in Student Financial Services. So that's the problem. So let's let's
sort of unpack that.
Esteban Perez Cortez 44:14
I agree.
Mohamed Sallam 44:15
And there's a new facul -- as a new staff member who was also quite young, there was a hard -to have that conversation earlier in my time here. And then over time, it became easier to have
that conversation. I think the other piece that made it possible, and this is to your point about
information. So it's not just in terms of scholarly information, but it's also in the practically
oriented information. So the information that finds its way to a student affairs professional,
oftentimes, it's not coming from a leading journal in a particular field, it's coming from a training,
it's coming from a workshop, it's coming from a collection of experiences. It's coming from, you
know, more practically oriented training and workshop and human resources in organizational
leadership, it's coming from another field, it's not coming from history, it's not come from Soc
(Sociology), it's coming from Political Science, oftentimes come from somewhere else. So one
of the things that I that I grew more comfortable with is being able to say to colleagues, and this
is again from adding more information to our, to our, to our field of Student Affairs is to say,
"Look, when you want to problem solve for one student, you ought to be problem solving for all
students." So I know for certain, and I knew them for certain that it wasn't just Muslim students
that didn't want to take out a massive federal loan.
Esteban Perez Cortez 45:30
Yeah, any student wouldn't.
Mohamed Sallam 45:32
It was any student and some students more than others. So for me, I took one step back once I
got over the fact that they you know, that these problems came to me because I happen to be
Muslim. And I happen to be one of very few, if not the only Muslim at the table at the time, what
I used the platform of being called on to represent and what I then did is I kind of I was able to
turn around and say, Okay, well, my goal is not to just serve Muslim students, my goal is to
serve any student comes my way. So let's have that conversation. And let's sit down with
Student Financial Services. Let's sit down with the Registrar, let's sit down with the Admissions
Office. And let's try to come up with a way to address scholarships, to address funding. And
then to then start to say, Well, wait a minute, is there a problem? Because this is for me, like
even in a rhetorical sense, to sit down with the financial aid counselor and say, so you don't
think it's a problem for a student to leave Augsburg with massive debt? You know, think that's
the problem, right? Now that you think of it, I think that is a big problem. Right?So that is
something that I think starts out as a quote unquote, "Muslim" issue to resolve. But my because
of my role, I was able to say, "Well, I don't know, I don't actually see this as a purely Muslim
issue, I see this as an issue, that's indicative of a larger problem here, and that we have in
higher education. And that's one of funding, right and, and massive student debt. So if we can
solve the student debt problem, I promise you, you're not going to have Muslim students saying
I don't want to take any more loans out, because you're going to have provided an alternative for
them, as well as an alternative for any number of other students." But that has always been my
approach to problem solving. And some of that is about meeting, meeting someone else
meeting that person who's dumping this assumption on you meeting them where they're at. So
yes, I can, I can get angry, I can get disappointed, I can be dismayed and say, I'm done with
this, I don't want to have to deal with this. I can pull my kid out of a school and say, "Well, if
you're not going to let them have time off for Friday prayer, then screw you and getting the heck
out of here." Their parents who in some manner of speaking do that. There are some educators
who in some average speaking, say, "I'm not going to solve your Muslim problems." But for me,
my approach has often been like, "Okay, well, what would the smart educator in me do?" And
that would be let's, let's do as much information gathering as we can. And let's share with our
colleagues as much as we can, and let's fill whatever void, there is around information about
these issues with good, healthy, critical feedback and information.That's been my approach.
Esteban Perez Cortez 48:06
So kind of with the same thing with, kind of yourself, you're an educator happens to be Muslim.
So you kind of just want that also, with your students, they are students who happen to be
Muslim, but first and foremost their students, right?
Mohamed Sallam 48:21
I think I think that's a, it's fair to say that in. I think it's fair to say that, but also, I think, in this
sense, because as much, as much, as it can trouble me to reveal that the person sitting across
the table has made assumptions about who I am, I don't want to do the same thing to my
students. And so also, as an educator, and especially in a lot of our context, this is a, you know,
it's a high stress, it can be a high stress environment, where you don't often have, I don't have
loads of time to get to know every last aspect of a student's sort of religious personal, social,
political worldview. So it would be in some ways, for me, it would be harmful to assume that, that
religion, or politics, or any number of things, is guiding everything that a student might be doing.
So for me it yeah, it makes more sense. And in some ways, it's the safer, more practical route.
And more effective route is to say, look, I understand that you may be who you are. And those
are things that we can connect about. Cool. But for me, the quickest way for us the most
effective way, the most reasonable for us to problem solve as a student, whether it's an advising
or instructional capacity, is to see you as a student first, because that is why we you know, that's
why we've been brought together. And then that's kind of for me is, it's not to say that there
someone's level of religiosity or someone's relationship to their faith community, that those
aren't aspects of our relationship. But as a primary step, for me, it's always about you meet the
student where they are, regardless of who they may be. And regardless of what their
experiences may have been, like, that's been my approach.
Esteban Perez Cortez 50:00
Did that, did you kind of see that improving throughout the years here at Augsburg? You -Mohamed Sallam 50:04
I think so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 50:04
-- Was there a shift towards that kind of attitude?
Mohamed Sallam 50:06
I I would love to think of, like, you spend 12 years at a place you want to see that, that -- You
know, of course, the you know, not everything moves in a straight upward line but on a graph.
But the reality, of course, is my hope is that even in a small way, and certainly students made a
huge impact, right that the fact that Augsburg began to enroll many, many, many more students
of color, Native students, underrepresented students from multiple religious and non-religious
backgrounds, different ethnic and racial backgrounds, different socioeconomic backgrounds, all
of that help improved, the college I think it's fair to assume help improve or at least gave the
college an opportunity, the university an opportunity to better understand that if I meet the needs
of students, and if I put students full -Esteban Perez Cortez 50:56
Right.
Mohamed Sallam 50:56
in full in a comprehensive sense, in, in view, then I may be able to address the needs of an
individual student. So if I'm put the needs of individual students, regardless of who they may be,
and I deal with them an aggregate that like, yeah, I need to come up with a solution, not just for
one student, but for many students. But that, that that is something and then to understand that
even in that that's going to be hard. It's going to be complicated. Every individual students going
to present a very specific kind of dilemma and challenge and you have to you have to be ready
and prepared. Dang.
Esteban Perez Cortez 51:31
Okay. Well, that's going to be all the questions for today.
Mohamed Sallam 51:34
Oh, ok.
Esteban Perez Cortez 51:35
Yeah. I mean, I have a good amount of time for the recording.
Mohamed Sallam 51:39
Okay, good.
Esteban Perez Cortez 51:39
Um, but yeah, I thank you for your time very much. I enjoyed the information we have been
given. And yeah, I hope to stay further in contact with you. But yeah, thank you for everything so
far.
Mohamed Sallam 51:51
Thank so much. Good luck.
Esteban Perez Cortez 51:52
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good morning -Nazih Safi 0:02
Good morning.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:03
-- I'm Esteban Perez. It is Thursday, just kidding it is Sunday, March 31st. I am the oral historian
for this project. We are here at Augsburg University with Nazih Safi. Nazih if you ca... Show more
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:00
Alright, good morning -Nazih Safi 0:02
Good morning.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:03
-- I'm Esteban Perez. It is Thursday, just kidding it is Sunday, March 31st. I am the oral historian
for this project. We are here at Augsburg University with Nazih Safi. Nazih if you can introduce
yourself to the recording giving your full name and when and where you were born. And then
we'll go over a couple questions.
Nazih Safi 0:25
Hello, everybody. My name is Mohamed Nazih Safi. I was born in Damascus, Syria, 1995, April
1st, and is that it, is that it?
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:39
Your birthday's tomorrow?
Nazih Safi 0:40
Yeah, my birthday is tomorrow.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:41
Oh look at that, how old are you turning?
Nazih Safi 0:41
I'll be turning 24, I know becoming an old man.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:48
Where'd you go to school?
Nazih Safi 0:50
I went to Augsburg University or now Augsburg University, it used to called Augsburg College
back in my days.
Esteban Perez Cortez 0:57
When'd you graduate?
Nazih Safi 0:58
I graduated May 2017.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:02
Where do you live right now?
Nazih Safi 1:03
I live in Eden Prairie. With my brother, it's the same house I've lived in when, kind of when, I
started like when we moved here.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:11
So you've always lived in Eden Prairie?
Nazih Safi 1:13
Yeah, exactly.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:15
That's cool. And then obviously, you're, Muslim, correct?
Nazih Safi 1:20
Yes, I'm Sunni Muslim.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:21
Okay.
Nazih Safi 1:22
Always raised been, always have been.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:24
Sounds good. So you already mentioned, you're from Syria -Nazih Safi 1:29
Yup, Damascus, Syria.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:30
-- Damascus, Syria. How long did you live there til?
Nazih Safi 1:34
I lived there for the first seven and a half years of my life. So we immigrated here, I think in
2000, like October of 2002. Yeah, we went directly to Eden Prairie. And yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 1:49
So where do you say you're from a lot of time and somebody asks you, what do you say?
Nazih Safi 1:54
Oh, well, it comes and depends on what kind of what the event is. If it's like a diversity type
event, were like, I'm expecting to get kind -- that where you really from type of question or like, I
know people more asking like about your heritage. Then I'll say Damascus, Syria and stuff like
that. But in terms of like, like, when I go to interviews, or the day to day kind of casual events or
like not focused on race and those kind of social justice type stuff. I just say I'm Eden Prairie,
Minnesota. I'm a citizen. So I mean, as American besides running for president I'm as American
as I can get. Yeah, so yeah, I just say Eden Prairie, Minnesota, but otherwise, I say I'm Middle
Eastern from Damascus, Syria. I'm half French on my moms side.
Esteban Perez Cortez 2:39
So it just depends on the context a lot of the time?
Nazih Safi 2:42
Exactly. Or the event.
Esteban Perez Cortez 2:42
Interesting. So then you kind of just touched up a little bit umm, but what is your cultural
background? You said, Syrian, French?
Nazih Safi 2:50
Yeah. So yeah, ma -- people will like, ethnically I just say I'm Arab like, uh, on terms of federal
papers and stuff you know, it's considered White, but when people actually asked me about my
race and stuff, I identify as Middle Eastern. I don't really focus too much on the white side you
know, from my mom side being French just because I mean, I have white, light skin color stuff
like that but in terms of culture I didn't inherit anything from that culture you know, I mean.
Besides like citizenship and like, the language I mean, all my cultures like strictly Arab Muslim,
you know, so it's like, say it affects the food I eat. Like the way I talk, the mannerisms I have, like
the etiquette of like in terms of like, how I interact with that gender you know, whatever norms
whatever the household chores things like that it's it's all through the Arab culture so. Arabs
what I identify as.
Esteban Perez Cortez 3:42
So did you grow up learning a couple different languages?
Nazih Safi 3:45
I did. At homie we mostly speak Arabic. And that was like for the most part like what we spoke.
Now the like, everybody just speaks really good English and my Arabic has been you know, the
struggle of being bilingual where you just kind of lose that the, the original language you know, it
just I speak more English but I'm supposed to speak more Arabic so like we we speak Arabic it's
just especially with me in particular because my Arabic’s gotten so bad that everybody just
speaks to me in English. So I don't watch any like of those shows in Arabic, just because I don't
understand. I'm good enough, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 4:20
You didn't learn up, you didn't grow up learning French atall?
Nazih Safi 4:23
I did. I took six years of it in high school. So like six, so like, I took all College in School (CIS).
And so I actually transferred to 10 credits in French, you know, into Augsburg from high school.
And I mean French and used to speak that with my mom, may she rest in peace, but she also
knew English so like once I learned English I started speaking more English to her, so. Then I
have to yeah -- we can continue with family later.
Esteban Perez Cortez 4:50
Ok, sure. So besides religion, how, I mean you kind of decide like food was pretty impactful on
your family's heritage to you was pretty impactful?
Nazih Safi 5:02
Food? Oh, yes. Food is like the number one thing I like, retain and like care about in terms of
my culture, like language is something I'm working on and like I want to get better especially
with like, the recent happening, but um, but like, the food is definitely a thing we brought back
the most like that's the thing that I guess keeps us uh rooted because I came by immigrated to
the states with umm, three brothers at the time and one sister. And so like, we didn't have like
any, you know, parental Guardian, to kind of like maintain that kind of those traditions or
anything like that. So food as well we had to kind of go off, go off of and it's like, but just as how
we knew, how we know how to eat you know, I mean, like burgers and steak and that kind of
stuff or whatever. Like there's more American like are like casserole dish whatever hot dish
wasn't really something in our food, you know, like list of food options or whatever. So like,
Arabic food by far I love Middle Eastern food, Mediterranean food is just so much healthier, so
much salads, vegetables, and a good amount of meat, not too much. Lots of rice. I love rice and
potatoes. Like not together but just like rice and potatoes, fruit dishes. Yeah, just lots of spices
and just diversity like know even like also just being in like a diverse part of like, you know,
going to Augsburg, now, I've been starting joining a lot of Chinese and kind of doing these like
Arabic-Chinese type dishes or like Afro, like Afro-Arabic dishes or even like Latino-Arab dishes,
which by the way, like what's cool about Latino's, like, there's a huge migration of like Lebanese
people in, to Mexico. So like our foods already so similar. So it was like a good transition for
Mexican food. Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:41
Food is always a topic where people can connect. And that's pretty cool.
Nazih Safi 6:46
Yeah, no, I love good food, food. Food is I'm always there. That's where all my money goes.
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:51
Unfortunately, you're not the only one.
Nazih Safi 6:54
Yeah, it's good stuff.
Esteban Perez Cortez 6:56
So what does Minnesota mean to you and your family? Was it, I know some people, they were
escaping conflict. Some people, it's like, oh, I just got a job in Minnesota. So that's why we
came.
Nazih Safi 7:07
For us, it was.. my brother had come here for a few years he'll, there was an older fellow that he
knew back home in Syria. And he had like immigrated like 10 years before my brother had come
to the US. It was probably like 30 years ago now. He head started up a few restaurants. He
was, they were kind of blowing up. He got like, another restaurant, he was looking for new
manager, somebody could trust. Ghassan had just graduated high school, had been doing a
couple years kind of miscellaneous um, life experience type stuff. And then he just, they talked
and he gave him um, he let him like king of stay with him in his house for like a year or two. He
then started working as a manager at that restaurant and started making some money, and then
eventually just at home, things were not the best for me and my sister. my dad worked about
100 plus hours every single week on the farm and stuff. And we lived in a house that was not as
part of the farm. And so like we literally were alone, this we were seven and nine when we left.
So like, up until that age, we were alone, about 17-18 hours a day, every single day. The only
time we have people around us is um, when my older brothers were 14 and 15 at the time,
would come back from like school to like make dinner and that was it. Otherwise, Arab culture is
very male dominated. And so like they basically went and came and went as they please. And
so we were in my sister, basically, we're just chilling by ourselves seven and nine years old. So
we're just malnourished and someone's like, no one's really taking care of us. And so my
brother had found that out and just worked on getting our sponsorship. And then through
asylum, we got our Asylum papers and came to the U -- Minnesota and it's been home since,
um, yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 8:54
So Minnesota is home?
Nazih Safi 8:55
Yes. It's all I know. I know. I mean, I plan to go back to Syria eventually. But not until the war's
over, not anytime soon. So I'd love to go back.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:09
So, you just briefly touched up about it you know your family ended up here through Asylum
correct?
Nazih Safi 9:12
Yes.
Esteban Perez Cortez 9:14
Did you want to talk about that a little bit more? or leave it as is?
Nazih Safi 9:18
Yeah, I mean, in terms of asylum, I mean, it's not necessarily a "refugee" refugee just because
at the time when we left was before the war. it was more for like a humanitarian plea where, we
kind of made the case that I mean, when I came here, my skin was almost yellow. Like it was
that pale, I was seven years old. I think I weighed like 60 pounds or something. I mean, and I'm
a short guy, like I was just super malnourished. So just not, no one really taking care of us. And
so we just need someone you know, just be there just kind of actually make sure that we're
there's food available in the house and that like we're actually eating it and stuff. Yeah, I mean, I
don't know, I mean I don't feel like a Asylum -- it doesn't. Like, currently it doesn't really affect
me anymore. You know, I mean, like it just I consider myself American because, like, it's not
something I deal with on a regular basis. You know, me like I don't I don't know, like whatever. I
don't know, like, what are some refugee struggles. You know, I mean, like, it's part of my history
and the culture, I really appreciate it and like I care about that, but it doesn't have like any
impact like I speak English better than I speak Arabic. I, I dream in English. I, I think everything
in English. My mentality when I'm with like, my, my new -- so I have a lot of Arabs friends who
are recent immigrants within like two to three years. Like, with them like there's almost like a
cultural disconnect between us just because I didn't have those experiences, you know,
because I left when I was seven and a half, but they have to they're like 19, 18, 16. And so like,
I'm learning my culture through them. But then I'm also teaching them how to assimilate through
the American culture here. Things like going to college and stuff and kind of like, yeah, just kind
of learning. Kind of, showing them the cool places, stuff like that. And just giving them, showing
them that Amer - teenager. I don't know, American teenager lifestyle. I don't know.
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:04
The best of both worlds -Nazih Safi 11:05
Exactly
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:06
What's it called, like reciprocity between you?
Nazih Safi 11:09
Exactly -- I'm learning about my culture, they're learning about this. So.
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:14
Has living you changed your family's lifestyle a little bit?
Nazih Safi 11:18
Drastically.
Esteban Perez Cortez 11:18
Drastically?
Nazih Safi 11:19
Drastically. I mean, first of all, number one thing is in Syria, you got to know that the within, in
terms of like all socialcast -- social economics or whatever, it's very, very skewed, I mean,
majority the population super rich, but then the remainder of the population is I mean, we're,
we're talking less than dirt poor like, there it's it's so casual to see on the highways, people with
like broken arms, and just like broken legs, just basically walking around just because they don't
have, can't afford it. And there's basically just don't have anywhere to go. And they're just
basically just laying out. You know, I mean, so like seeing that is very different. But then too, for
us, like, going back to like how everybody super rich, we had eight or nine different houses. One
being on the mountain, one being on the, in the Mediterranean. SO Syria has a very small part
of the Mediterranean. We have a house in the Mediterranean, we have multiple condos, we had
a farm with a massive house, we had umm, also a house in the center of Damascus, which is
like prime real estate, because the traditional houses are worth -- basically now right now,
they're super lavish. Like they're turning them into restaurant just because they're so unique.
And the basically they're very easy on the eyes, I guess, you know, they're just so cool. Um, so
we were definitely not poor and like, you know, like a first 5-6- 7 years of coming to Minnesota,
we had food stamps and stuff. I was on all throughout high school, I was on free lunch and stuff.
Like, you know what, I mean, again, like food stamps, but then back at home in Syria, I mean,
anything I wanted, and it just, I mean, especially in Syria, because it's like a small town like in
our, in our, in our house in Damascus, I would literally walk as a seven year old to any place, I
wouldn't even need to bring money just because my dad's so well known. I would just grab
whatever I want let them know here's what I bought, put on my dad's tab and he would take care
of it at some point. I don't know when I don't know how, but I would literally just walk into any
place grab whatever I want, walk out at any time of the day as long as it's open and just without
having to worry about it and I was never told anything from my dad or anybody else just.. So I
just didn't even know the existence of money you know what I mean? And that's how rich we
are. And that's how the social capital that my dad had, you know, in our place. So like, but now
here it's like who knows my brother's name? Who knows our family name? Like but we were -my brothers had like five different jobs you're trying to like keep up the house. He's been a
mailman, he's been worked as like a -- just like a storage facility and Amazon. He -- Oh was a
manager of a restaurant, now he's like a water like factory operator type person. I don't know
exactly to be honest. So it's like it's been interesting you know it's been an interesting change
you know? I mean, so we know like we're finally you know catching up I guess in terms of like
social capital and like just getting off like certain welfare you know system and stuff. Which is
nice. But I mean it was definitely the first five-six years or so was definitely a struggle because
like --Had to buy those first winter coats, adjusting to like snow. I was sick for so long, so I had
so many sicknessess my first few years, yeah, I don't know it just, it was definitely made a major
transition just the food like the way also even the social like interaction like that back in home,
there's you don't really hang out with friends on a consistent basis. it's mostly just cousins and
family. But here in American culture you pretty much, especially as like as a young person
before you're married you pretty much spend 99% of your time with friends. So that was
interesting and like the friendship relationships there's you know woman in like males and
females hang out together casually. Um, that was something that didn't really get comfortable
with until like end of year like senior and junior year of high school. So the first few years I was
really awkward at those situations and just felt kind of like an outcast during it because I didn't
know how to, have those relationships. Especially as a Muslim, you know. It's even more
emphasis cause like if you're talking like a Christian Arab it's still a bit different but as a Muslim
Arab know those. Yeah, it's just very different so. Drastically?
Esteban Perez Cortez 14:42
How was the religious community here after arriving?
Nazih Safi 15:19
Um, it's definitely very different. So in Syria, it's very traditional. So like, the woman especially
Arab like Muslim woman, they're always wearing those like long jackets, that go from like head
to toe and in addition to the hijab and also covers up to like the ankles or lower sometimes.
Where as here, so like, the dress codes are different. So like being around again, like being
around Muslims, like dress more like, you know, pants and like they wear the hijab, but then
they also wear pants and T shirt, or like tights, like in my household that my sister, my brother
would never have allowed my sister to wear any of that kind of stuff, you know what I mean? But
then getting comfortable with that, like the religious community here, it is just kind of interesting I
guess and it was, I guess there was lot of initial judgment from our part on like, are they actually
Muslim or you know, like they just the way they practiced is so different you know? Then also I
guess food so one thing lately that I've been trying to do is umm, we only eat Halal food. So like
we don't eat meat unless we know that it was like came from like a Halal butcher. And like that's
been interesting you know. In terms of meat umm.. yeah and I mean also for like big events like
holidays that just you know, Ramadan, school would be out, work would be like shortened
hours, where it's like early -- where everybody's works half days. you know everybody
celebrates together it's here, it's like such a you have to balance you know, PTO (Paid Time Off)
balance between different people's schedules not like just everybody's gonna be free. It's a lot
more stressful to figure out like if y'all plan like a trip you know for the holiday after Ramadan
ends go celebrate you know, because there's not a recognized holiday in the American you
know, like whatever nation. Um, so I mean there's parts of it yeah, I'm just not as like -- it doesn't
feel like home here like as impact well I guess the big holidays. I mean in terms of like
community with our new like congregation, we got like a new building that has been slowly kind
of been getting strengthened and we're building kind of relationships with other Muslims and
because it's becoming like a really large congregation we're able to do a lot bigger, larger like it'll
sponsor community events and so that's been like, more like -- something to look forward to I
guess for the holidays. And like we have those big meals you know, like in Syria like mosques,
all would host giant meals you know, to break the fast and stuff for the community. So you're
never too worried about like your cooking if you're too tired or anything like that. And here it's
like it's not as common, there is like some mosques can afford it but it's like not, not just
everywhere you go you know what I mean? There's things like that's mostly around food and
just like we can still make it happen, it just takes a lot more effort and like intention and
everybody is stressed, to make it feel like it's an actual holiday and you know.
Esteban Perez Cortez 18:03
Was it easy finding a mosque near you in Eden Prairie? When you first arrived or eventually?
Nazih Safi 18:09
Um, I think I don't remember like initially because I didn't, we didn't really attend because like I
was still a kid, so I didn't really care about that stuff. Just take it home, but as long, as long as I
remember like because, I've gone to a few different ones.. it wasn't too hard, I guess. There's,
there's, there's actually a good sized um, like Muslim community in like Eden Prairie and like
Minnesota in general. As you know, there was a lot of Somali population, a lot of Pakistani,
Indian, it's like, it's just been interesting here, the biggest adjustment, I guess, is the diversity of
Muslims. Like, you know, like a Desi (South Asian) person versus like a Middle Eastern versus,
you know, Indonesian Muslim, you know, they're like, or like a Revert Muslim, they all practice
very differently, or, like, the cultural type stuff, you know. So it's been interesting getting to meet
different kinds of Muslims were like, in Syria, everyone practices the exact same way. We all do
things the same exact same way. Like, there's no debate on anything, and like, you just, you
knew what everybody was going to practice. But now it's like, it's cool learning, I guess, and
seeing just different ways how people practice and meeting new people. Like you see all kinds
of colors in our congregation, so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 19:16
So you already touched about this, especially with food, bringing that sense of home back to
you. So what are -- do you know of some other ways that you or your family members kind of
bring back that sense of home? There's food what else is there? There's obviously the religion,
right?
Nazih Safi 19:35
Yeah. I mean, besides religion, in terms of like culture, because we didn't have parental like,
figure, there really the only thing we maintain is like the religion aspect. It's like, you know, pray
five times a day, read the Quran, you know, like the Sunnah or of like, like, basically proper
etiquette and mannerisms of how to interact with people and like, trade and stuff like that. But
besides that, in terms of like, the actual cultural like events, and how, you know what I mean like
I don't like the traditions of like, so like how in Syria because we were like you we had money
and stuff and rub it on -- my dad would go to the farm and other farms, like for -- sheep farms
and stuff. And he would sacrifice a bunch of, you know, a few sheeps and donating all the
different meats to various mosques, various neighborhoods right? You know, like just different
places, family and stuff like that. And that's something that was I really look forward to cause
you'd always have like, a giant feast, like every day for like, the next few days, those feasts don't
happen, happen anymore. Because it's like, if we wanted to have like, you know, a traditional
like, you know, feast with like a sheep that's going to be very expensive in the US, you know?
And there's not like, you know, as much like organization around it and just because there's not
like a big, dense population of like, Arabs. It's like majority of the Muslims are like Desi or
Somali. And so like, we just kind of end up attending, you know, those kinds of events, and
they're not really our culture we're attending them for the religious aspect, not so much the
Syrian cultural aspect because there's not that many Syrians to begin with. Yeah, so I mean,
and then also things like also there -- I means it's mostly like for like an like I said, because we
were like so, in Islam, it's really, this huge emphasis on giving back to the community and giving
back to the poor, like in terms of like, just not even just donating food. Like, when I visit my back
home in Syria, about 10 years ago, my dad bought about 300 different watches of silver and
gold watches. And just donated to different community members. Like we literally went house -door to doors and like around the neighborhood, and just, boom, boom, boom, like, it just sort
of, I mean like A: like the fact that we had the money to do that and be just like, the feeling of
community that you get when you do that kind of like that kind of giving, you know, I mean,
that's not something I can just do right now. You know, I can't just afford to like maybe if I was
trying to do something similar I'd drop like, you know, 50 grand, which I don't have you know?
So like it's different for multiple reasons, not just for the cultural aspects also the fact like we
don't the social capital to do all the practices that we wanted that we used to do all those
traditions.. like weddings and stuff. So I recently got engaged and we had an engagement party
like back at home the whole, all your neigh -- all your neighbors would like to help with like,
making the food and stuff and like, you know, like um, hosting, finding a good place to host it
and like it'd be such a more impactful event like so much less stress because there's so many
more people involved in like, you know, taking on in terms of like financially and like actually like
getting word out and like the food and like you know setting up and all that good stuff, you
know? But here it's like strictly the family you're the one paying for everything, you're the one
like finding a cat -- you know, like a Middle Eastern you know, catering company and so like it's
just so much more expensive and there's not as much like you know communal efforts because
I mean A: there's not a big enough population. And 2: it's just, it's really expensive you know?
Like we don't -- people don't have the time either you know, especially like most of the -- you
know our community members like our friends that are Arab, they're not working like the super
nice job you know? They don't -- their parents don't have college degrees you know, they're
working just jobs, just so you know to make enough money just to put food on the, food on the
table you know what I mean? So it's just it's, it's different you know? Where we can't like do
what we want to do so. We're not buying like you know, super lavish dresses and like all this
jewelry for the you know, the fiance and stuff and decking her out like we would've done back
home so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:20
I know you've touched up a little bit on this but, so your family's pretty religious right? Like kind
of some are loosely religious like you know some, say like don't pray five times a day some do,
you know? Would you say you're family's, your family's pretty religious?
Nazih Safi 23:35
No, our families definitely, everybody for sure prays all five, all five times a day. All the
mandatory stuff we, we don't, we don't slack on.
Esteban Perez Cortez 23:43
Okay.
Nazih Safi 23:44
Umm, I mean, we're not -- I obviously we're not like the most like extreme practicing because
like there's a lot of, something called Sunnah's in Islam. Sunnah's are basically like they're umm,
they're basically encouraged, like, you know, like religious things or cultural things or -- basically
they're just correct practices that you could do or you should do. But if you don't do them, it's not
against you. So like, we just practice all the mandatory type stuff, the stuff that's like, we say
(Arabic) so it's stuff that you have to do and it's actually if you don't do it, it goes against you. So
like not eating pork, praying five times a day. You know, like not cussing, not smoking because
it's you know, anything that harms the body is a sin, you know, not drinking, so like things like
that. But then there's also like we also practice a little bit of, in terms of like other stuff, it's like,
you know, growing a beard, that's good, it's considered good, good manners in Islam, to grow a
beard. But there's also other things like, again, like with the donations and stuff like that we only
donate the minimum amount. Where as like, back home it's encouraged to donate like around
20% I think or something like that. But we don't do that because you know like we're just trying
to get by you know? Like there's other things too, I can't -- they're not going to my head right
now. Really they're just like yeah, I don't know. Like also traditional clothes we're not wearing
those traditional clothes like we just -- you're encouraged to wear white all the time. I don't wear
white because it won't stay white.
Esteban Perez Cortez 25:05
Okay, thank you. So I kind of want to touch up a little bit on your religious identity going hand in
hand with like your cultural or like social identity at school and at work. Can you tell me a little bit
about that?
Nazih Safi 25:23
Yes, I mean in terms of work I mean, I don't really announce to anybody that I'm Muslim and like
I'm not a Muslim girl so I'm not wearing a hijab you know like there's no red flag. So if you look
at my, my skin complexion um, passing privilege I'm white. Um, and I guess racially or ethnically
by the American system I'm considered white cause I'm Middle Eastern. So like in terms of
work, if they don't know my, my name is Mohamed, I get treated like a regular white American
person in terms of like on paper and so like in terms of like resumes and stuff like that I
definitely, when people find out like, I always introduce myself as Nazih Safi because that's what
my family calls me, Nazih. Um, and when I introduce myself to people as, as Nazih and like to
find out later from like, looking at like the email or something like my first name is actually
Mohamed, stuff like that, sometimes people get offended or something, you know? And they're
like, why didn't you say your Mohammed and like, I don't know, I feel like sometimes like they
might start to treat me different especially the older people because they find out my name is
Mohamed. Especially with girls, I don't know why it happens with more girls than guys, but
definitely the treatment just changes and then they're like, more as distant, not as like, not as
much jokes flowing and like friendliness, I don't know. Maybe they think of like, you know, I don't
know maybe, it's just not, not something like that they're like rude, become rude or anything but
it's like, not as much like friendliness, I guess, I don't know. So it's like at work, but then like,
also like praying, I guess there's a struggle because, like, we have to do (Unknown) before like
we pray so basically we wash our hands, our face. Like our arms and like our feet, it's like doing
that in a corporate, you know, like bathroom or just like, coming in, coming in and out. And it's
like, it's not, you know, it's not, it's not easy, you know, it's like, I mean I have -- especially I wear
a suit to work every day. So like, it'll be like a half an hour mission and finding a quiet place
because I don't have an office like, go pray where I'm like in the way of anybody. You don't want
to do it in a place that's like super public, cause it just feels awkward. I mean people judge, I
don't know, it just makes you feel uncomfortable, you know, makes everyone feel
uncomfortable. So you try to find a nice quiet place. So I found few quiet places that I kind of go
to, something like that around lunchtime. Yeah, for the most part, I tried to kind of like work
prayer times around my meeting schedules. Which is kind of like annoying I guess, cause I don't
know, on the weekends I can just pray when I need to rather than, you know, around the
schedules or something, whatever. In terms of school it was easy just because in between
classes, and there's a lot of other Muslims. So there's also a prayer room at Augsburg. So it was
easy to just kind of meet up with people and I met some people by going like, to the prayer and
praying together. Prayers are definitely encouraged to be communal in Islam. You get more
credit, if you do it as a group. The bigger the group, the more credit you get. I mean, I don't
know in terms of, besides prayer and stuff like that wasn't like, like, as I said, it wasn't like super
(unknown) practice. It wasn't like it didn't, it didn't deter me too much like, from like, engaging
fully, I guess in all my academia stuff. Like I still attended some dances and stuff. I didn't dance
because I don't like to dance, but still attend, hangout with friends, you know, grab some food,
you know, hang out for a bit. I don't know, don't eat pork at the cafeteria. So I don't need the
pepperoni pizza or whatever. I'd always yell was the coworkers if they don't wash the knife after
cutting a ham sandwich. Things like that. I mean, I don't know. Besides that it wasn't like
anything. It didn't really affect me, I guess it didn't really stress me out for me, I guess I don't
know. There's there's more than enough options that I didn't really have to think about it, I
guess. Like in terms of prayer room, like I said, is accessible and I lived on campus all, every
years so like I could just pray in my room if I really had to so I didn't have to worry about like
finding a place to pray. And there was a lot of Muslims at Augsburg so it's easy to build
somewhat of a commu -- Muslims, they just.. most of them are more, a lot less practicing than I
am and so like that's where it got a little bit interesting. But you know, you get to meet people.
So it was fun. I don't know. So it have too much of a crazy impact on me, I would say.
Esteban Perez Cortez 29:22
Okay. What about in high school? Like how did you ever -Nazih Safi 29:28
High School is probably the hardest part. I guess that's where I most really noticed that a
Muslim especially when I started attending it like, I don't know, because especially in high
school people are like, I don't know I would say they're offensive, but they're definitely not the
most comfortable with Muslims. Well, there's a lot of times, you know, I pray like, during
hallways and stuff like that, and I don't know, you just get awkward looks like I'm like, you know,
finishing it up, you know, you just see that people are just looking at you and it's just
uncomfortable or like, you know, if you're studying or something and you tell your friend like,
"Hey, I gotta go pray for a bit", they're like "dude, you don't need to pray just pray later. Like, just
get done." and I was like, "No, dude. I pray right now." Like, they just don't understand. They're
not as like, literally, they're just not as caring about it, I guess you know what I mean. Like they
have, they haven't learned, like, that's pretty important to this person. It's a huge part of my
identity and stuff, that. You know, because most people would say they're not religious in terms
of like, in America as a whole, you know, it's all the secular so, I don't know so. They don't
prioritize it or, I don't know. It did impact me I guess too but like, in high school actually did, like,
especially in gym class I got called terrorists a lot but like, it was just for fun. I don't know I never
-- like, my name is Nazih. So sometimes people make fun and say, say your name might, like
say Nazi. You know, just like who would name their son Nazi, you know? Things like, I don't
know honestly, for me, like I said, I had a thick skin. I guess I just didn't really let get to me and
like, I never took offense, I guess, I had like a coping mechanism that I just never took offense
to it. I just, they're saying whatever they're saying I just didn't think about it, I guess I don't know.
Really, and any -- all those people that did say that kind of stuff, I didn't really care about them. I
didn't really interact with them. So I just ignore them.
Esteban Perez Cortez 31:08
So I don't know.. When -- When did you arrive to the US what year?
Nazih Safi 31:12
2002.
Esteban Perez Cortez 31:12
2002. So you could say that the 9-11 attacks generally didn't have too much of an impact with
like you and your family coming to the US or maybe in an indirect way? Or like?
Nazih Safi 31:26
I'm not really sure. I mean I came when I was seven -Esteban Perez Cortez 31:28
-- like immediately after, I guess is what I'm trying to -Nazih Safi 31:29
-- Yeah. We came in October.
Esteban Perez Cortez 31:32
So like almost a whole year afterwards.
Nazih Safi 31:33
Yeah. And so like, I mean, I don't really notice anything because like I mean, as a kid I'm not
seeing any of that stuff. I mean, in terms of second and third grade um, people love -- I have
really good memories in like, in like elementary school. I was at the foreign kid and people took
a lot of interest in me and like no one like said anything like cards to show. Like when I went to
the bathroom, get a drink and, I had a buddy every day that was assigned to me and change up,
so I got to know everybody. I don't know I experienced that. But like, it terms of -- I'm sure like
social stuff in terms of work and stuff, I'm sure it affected my brothers and stuff. Like since I was
seven I didn't pay attention to it, I didn't notice it, I didn't.. you know what I mean, cause I was so
young. I mean, the biggest thing was like, remembering to not eat pork and like, you know, like
rice krispies treats were given a lot during school and stuff. That's like, they have pork and then
they use gelatin. And so not being able to eat gelatin. Those were the biggest things. But
beyond that I didn't really, have any impact. When I first came, I don't know.
Esteban Perez Cortez 32:39
There was really no, like conversation, was there a conver -- of like from your -Nazih Safi 32:44
Not for me -Esteban Perez Cortez 32:45
Yeah?
Nazih Safi 32:45
I mean, it's cause so, I came, my sister was nine, my other two siblings were 14 and 15 and my
oldest sibling was like 35, the one that sponsored us. So like maybe he had some conversations
with the ones in high school, but -Esteban Perez Cortez 32:56
Okay.
Nazih Safi 32:56
-- with me, as elementary school it was not.. We didn't really talk. Yeah, there's just or I didn't
notice anything.
Esteban Perez Cortez 33:07
And we've kind of talking, we've talked a little bit about it already.. But there's a, a lot of time
there's a stereotype that Islam is very monolithic. There's kind of just one set of beliefs or like
iconic kind of stuff like that. But would you agree, disagree? That there's like a lot of different
versions of it, like, depending on what country and then there's also different cultural factors,
societal factors that can impact how it's practiced, you know, like, eventually, like, like you
mentioned, you know, you've met people that are not too religious, like you would be and then
you'd be like, Oh, is it due to where they're from? You know, is it due to their --
Nazih Safi 33:49
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 33:50
-- like class? Their?
Nazih Safi 33:51
I mean, so my understanding, so there's, there's really only two -- there is not like all these
denominations, like there is in Christianity, where you have Protestant, Luther, whatever. In
Islam, there's really only two differentiators, Shia or Sunni. And so like, those are the ones like I
would say, like, they're, they're, they're very separate and like, and then we, I mean, we, I would
say, we don't really get along. In terms of Sunni, like, from the name itself, we believe we're the
ones following again, what I've been mentioning earlier is Sunnah. So like the tradition of the
Prophet, and so we focus more on the -Esteban Perez Cortez 34:26
-- Can you spell that?
Nazih Safi 34:27
-- Umm yeah, peace be upon him. Umm, oh Sunnah?
Esteban Perez Cortez 34:30
Yeah.
Nazih Safi 34:30
S U N N A H. And so like, that's where the term Sunni comes from, we're the ones that follow
the Sunnah. Whereas the Shia, they focus more on the bloodline of the Prophet. And so the
main, the separator between us is that when the -- Muhammed peace, blessings be upon him
passed away, they decided that his uncle should be the next person to kind of like, kind of lead
Islam into, you know, like, whatever, it's like next steps. Whereas the Sunnis believed it should
be umm, I don't remember who it was, I think was Ali, who was one of his like companions. And
so, just because in terms of like, knowledge and base and stuff like that, like we didn't believe
his bloodline is special at all, but there's the Shia's focus on it -- the bloodline is important to
them. Whereas we said that as Sunni's, it doesn't matter. This guy's the most knowledgeable,
he's the one, that also was, like, you know, was supposed to inherit it. So he's the one that's
going to inherit it. And that's like, the biggest distincter in terms of practice and stuff. Beyond
that, we practice the same, like, we all pray five times a day, we read the same Quran, the exact
same, it's got the exact same, every single, single word every single, like, you know, like, the
like, everything is exactly verbatim, you know what I mean. Um, there just might be, where we
differentiate at it is, in terms of practice of the religion. So um, there's basically four primary
schools of thoughts, but like even within that, like when religious debates and stuff we don't
consider those other different schools of thoughts as different like, they're as, they're
non-Muslims or like, there's separate Muslims or something. They're just like, okay, for the final
prayer, some schools of thought say that you can delay it for till, for five hours, and it's actually
encouraged to delay it for whatever reason. Other schools of thought think that like, you should
pray right on time, always no matter what, like, you know what I mean, so just ways, it just
things that like, leaves room for like, room for, like, the kind of the culture aspect to kind of take
it, take care of it. Islam was, if it's practiced right, like, you know, so not looking at Saudi Arabia
or Iran, the extremes. It's, it was meant and created a way that the culture has a place in Islam, I
guess, like it, it has flexibility and it is not suppose, meant to be super rigid.
Esteban Perez Cortez 36:40
Yeah.
Nazih Safi 36:41
Umm like, as long as you meet the foundation that's considered, you're Muslim, you know. Um,
and so.. what was like, exactly, can you repeat the question again?
Esteban Perez Cortez 36:51
Um, it's kind of along the line like, you like, do you see a kind of different versions of it? Besides
like, the official ones -Nazih Safi 37:00
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 37:01
Like, you know, maybe like a regional type.
Nazih Safi 37:03
Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 37:03
You know, maybe people let's say, Minnesota, let's say like New York Muslims, they just do
something a little bit different.
Nazih Safi 37:08
Yeah. Okay, that's your -- so like, for in terms of that stuff, then yeah, for sure. Like that, in terms
of that cultural, so how they culturally celebrate Islam is different because like, I mean,
Indonesians is the biggest populous Muslim country in like, in the world. They definitely have
um, celebrate Eid and stuff like that a lot, lot different than, like, Arabs in terms of Saudi Arabia,
Syria, wherever, celebrate it. Um, in terms of like, but the main different, differentiator in terms of
practices is, it just depends on the practicing level. So like, for me, I always, for sure, take off
like, Eid off, because I'm like, it's a religious holiday. And like, that's the holiday that, it's actually
in Islam it's like you're told that, you have to go spend money on your family, and you have to
take a rest, like, that's the one day that you are up for -- if you don't rest that day, and you don't
have something kind of fun, that's like different than your normal kind of like everyday life, it
actually then becomes a sin. It's like your, your, your needs to be a memorable and joyful day,
especially for kids and stuff like that. So I know, a lot of people are just like, they don't care
enough to like, you know, take the same, you know, use the PTO (Paid Time Off) on those
kinds of days, they just don't care about it, you know, I mean? Which is fine. I mean, that's up to
them. Or, like, the biggest thing is also, like, terms of attire, you know, I mean? Like I said, so
going back to like, you know, especially in college. Like you know some Muslims they wear a
hijab and then they still wear t-shirts and tights, or jeans and stuff. Whereas like, for me, like
anything that isn't like a skirt for a girl, and like the hijab, like anything that's showing more than
just hands and like feet, and like face is like "What are you doing?", that is like showing way too,
you know, it's being so immodest, you know? So things like that. But it's nothing that's like, a
foundational belief, like a creed differentiator, where it's like, we believe that like, Muhammad
was like, you know, like, a god or something or that like, I don't know, some other stuff, you
know. So like, we all believe, we all believe in Jesus too. So like, it's a big thing that in terms of
Islam, Jesus was actually mentioned more in the Quran than Muhammad, or any other prophet.
Yeah so like, I don't know, there's, there's all -- so it's, basically just like, everyday, day to day
type practices that are different, not like religious type stuff, but just some impact the religion. So
like, the way they dress, the way they're like, their religion kind of impacts it, but they, people
follow it to different varying levels of extent, you know, like, interpret it slightly differently. Like,
whether you should grow a beard or not, you know, things like that or like, you know, wear
tailored clothes or not. Some people don't wear any tailored clothes, because they want to be
modest. So, I don't know. Like jeans would be tailored clothes cause it, you know, it fits your
body, so -Esteban Perez Cortez 39:42
Yeah, ok.
Nazih Safi 39:44
I don't know, that's hard. I don't really pay attention to it, I guess. Like, it's mostly just cultural
like, you know, Desi's (South Asian) might have some certain traditions, like, especially when it
comes to like marriage or something where, like, you know, Desi (South Asian) people they get
married right away. In terms of my right away as in terms of like, they don't really do have a
whole an engagement period or something, you know. So like, they get married right away, or
like you know, same with Somalis, like, when they're ready to get married (clap sound), they
engage, married next day, boom, it happens, move in together. Whereas like Arab's, so for me, I
just got engaged recently. We're not going to give married probably for another year or so.
Esteban Perez Cortez 40:15
Yeah.
Nazih Safi 40:15
Um, so we just kind of take things a little bit slower. So things like that. That's kind of the bigger,
biggest differentiators. And like maybe the way they celebrate their weddings, so like, I know
some cultures like they'll have big dances and lots of food. Other cultures, like they separate the
men and women. Others, they don't, they'll just kind of, it's like you know, like a club floor and or
like, your traditional wedding, like, you know, your normal, wedding. Umm, others it's just a
simple just, you know, just a reception and that's it. I don't know, it just depends.
Esteban Perez Cortez 40:47
And you say Desi, like South Asian, that's what you're talking about right?
Nazih Safi 40:52
Yeah, that's what I meant by Desi's. So like South Asians practice different versus Somalis or
just like Arabs.
Esteban Perez Cortez 40:57
I'm familiar with the term, I just want to clarify, that we're talking about the same thing.
Nazih Safi 41:00
Yeah, like so people from like, people from like Pakistan, India, Afghanistan, things like that.
Esteban Perez Cortez 41:03
Bangladesh.
Nazih Safi 41:07
Yeah, Bangladesh, exactly.
Esteban Perez Cortez 41:12
So question.. let's see we're down to the last couple questions. Some of these, the next one or
two just kind of stuff we've covered in class just to see.. the class is Islam in America, so just
kind of seeing the history of it in the U.S. whether through a lot of slaves that came back through
like the founding of the United States -Nazih Safi 41:39
-- Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 41:40
-- Or even still. So my question is, we've recently been learning about like, the Nation of Islam,
and then how it kind of compares to Islam -Nazih Safi 41:51
-- Yeah.
Esteban Perez Cortez 41:52
-- and then seeing.. the knowledge between like, different communities and their interactions
with the Nation of Islam. So just kind of my question really, have you heard about the Nation of
Islam?
Nazih Safi 42:05
I have -Esteban Perez Cortez 42:06
-- Yeah?
Nazih Safi 42:06
-- and that, the Nation of Islam I do not, like everybody that I associate with as like a, the
practicing Muslims I'll say, so in terms of like my family, friends and stuff.. No, Nation of Islam is
not Islam. We don't consider them Muslim at all. I mean I don't know if that's right or not, but
like we've for sure don't consider them Muslim at all. It's funny, especially with, like with the
violence like we're talking about Elijah Muhammad and stuff like that. Like the violent acts they
did like with Malcolm X before Hajj. Like, that's a whole thing that you know proves that like, at
least to me that they weren't Muslim like, if you saw -- I mean I read a little bit about the, the
biography of Malcolm X. He's basically one of my biggest heroes being A - being Muslim. And
he's like a modern day Prophet to us. When he was in the Nation of Islam, I mean, he used to
literally he's quoted literally saying "The white man is the devil." You know what I mean? Like,
he put the things like, so anti something. Even in Islam, like, there's verses of the Quran that
basically talk about, like, "We recreated you differently, to get to know one another." You know
what I mean? Like, like, you're allowed to befriend, like, you know, homosexuality is forbidden in
Islam. I'm still allowed to be friends with with gay people. Like I'm still allowed to be friends with
people. You know, like, even though who identify in the LGBTQIA, you know, community,
there's nothing wrong with that. I don't need to join them, but like there's nothing wrong with me
going out to get a bite to eat with them. They're, they're, they're fellow human beings. They're
my co workers so I'll identify them as that. We get along you know, get the project done, it
doesn't matter. You know, live and let live you know? I'm not gonna look down upon them or like
treat them differently just because of that. I mean, I mean, it's different if they're trying to like,
force my kid to do that, or something then it's different, you know I mean, but that's like a whole
different scenario. That's like a parenting thing or yeah, whatever. So like, so in terms of the
Nation of Islam, we definitely don't consider them as Muslims like, they are.. The things they did,
the things they said, the way they practice like, it's like the same as ISIS was no, ISIS is not
Muslim. Okay? They don't -- they just use the name of Islam because it's like a good media,
attention grabber. But the way they practice.. has nothing to do with Islam, you know? It's like a
(Unknown). Yeah, I mean, so it's just a, yeah. But then going back to, back and look, back, Ma
-- Malcolm X, my love about that is, I mean, you literally saw, when he went to Hajj, and he
talked about it, he said, the Hajj, that Muslims, you know, they got rid of racism. That like Islam
was able to get rid of racism and nowhere else in the world, he traveled all over the world, parts
of Africa, Asia, U.S. He wasn't -- no one was able to deal with, like, religious diversity as Islam
has been, you know? And so like, I don't know. So when it comes to like Nation of Islam, it just,
they're just not doing it right, you know? I mean, I mean, I know, right now, they still have some
influence to in modern, like, you know, history. Like, like, they still exist as an organization. I
think they're more of a just, I don't know, like misguided, like, people who, I mean, there's also
there's so much money in like, you know, religious type stuff like, how many churches do we
know, just like, all these tax schemes, and, you know, like, multi-billion dollar type, donations
and whatever, blah, blah, blah. So it's like, I think they're basically just using it for like, you know,
it's more of like a business, you know? So like, they're just a way to organize people, and they're
catching people who like, or in a marginalized, and then they I don't know they assign certain
criteria, and they're just taking advantage of it, I don't know. That's how I look at it.
Esteban Perez Cortez 45:38
Right on. Just wanted to know -Nazih Safi 45:38
-- and I'm not super like, caught up with all things, you know, Nation of Islam, but from like
history in high school classes in college and stuff. They're, they're, they're not Muslim. They're,
they're, they're not Muslim at all.
Esteban Perez Cortez 45:50
Ok, um, let's see, so we'll be winding down, I'll just have one more question left, and then we'll
be done. So where are you working currently right now?
Nazih Safi 45:59
I'm working at Optum - Unitedhealth Group (UHG), as a business analyst in their consulting
development program.
Esteban Perez Cortez 46:06
Well, where is that located?
Nazih Safi 46:07
In Eden Prairie, so it's a eight minute commute from my house -Esteban Perez Cortez 46:09
Pretty close.
Nazih Safi 46:10
-- Super nice.
Esteban Perez Cortez 46:12
So what do you have planned for the future now? You graduated, got a decent job, right? What
do you have planned either.. so either religiously, personally? I mean, you recently got engaged.
So you know congrats on that.
Nazih Safi 46:27
Thank you.
Esteban Perez Cortez 46:28
So yeah, what's next for you?
Nazih Safi 46:30
Next plans.. So hopefully, I'll you know, move in, get engaged with my soon to be wife next
summer. It's kind of the goal. That's like the number one thing I'm looking forward to. In terms of
work. I don't know just come performance year review, trying to go for that promotion, it'll be
going on two and a half years, three years by then. So hopefully, I'll be, I think I'll be ready for
promotion. Hopefully. Right now I'm playing to stay at the company. I like the company. It offers
a really flexible schedule and kind of come and go as I please. I can work from home a lot. And
as long as I can kind of get my work done, and get my work done on time, and I get it, do it right.
No one really says anything to me so. I think that's flexible so I don't see myself working at a
different company just yet. Grad school's definitely within two years but, so once I move in
together with my wife I'll, thats when l'll probably plan to start studying for the GMAT (Graduate
Management Admission Test). And then want to get, pursue a Master's of Science in Business
Analytics, or a Master's in Financial Mathematics, or a Master's in Operations Research, all kind
of more or less similar. Just kind of technical, analytical, math based, technology based type
programs. Yeah, no, I don't plan to move out of Minnesota just yet. Plus, my wife is still going to
school, so we'll be in Minnesota until she graduates. Yeah, so I mean not anytime soon so. I
would love to eventually move out to California.
Esteban Perez Cortez 48:09
California?
Nazih Safi 48:09
Spent a few weeks there one time. For research for like, McNair and another trip and really liked
it. I can see myself being there, just the diversity, the food, the amount of Muslims and just a lot.
It's just cool.
Esteban Perez Cortez 48:24
Nice. Alright. Well, that's about the whole interview there. Thank you for your time Nazih. I
appreciate all the information you've given me. Do you have any final thoughts or questions or
anything you'd like to say before we end?
Nazih Safi 48:38
No, I'm looking forward to kind of your compilation of everybody's interviews and what comes
out of this project and -Esteban Perez Cortez 48:44
-- yeah. There's there's a -Nazih Safi 48:45
-- Thank you for having me.
Esteban Perez Cortez 48:46
-- bunch of other students doing the same project. So there'll be a lot for you to kind of listen to.
Nazih Safi 48:51
Cool.
Esteban Perez Cortez 48:51
Alright. Well, thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History with Miski Abdulle, 2019
Sarah Burke 0:01
Hi, this is Sarah Burke with Augsburg University and I'm here with Miski Abdulle, the program manager
for the Immigrant Women Advocacy Program at the Brian Coyle Center-Miski Abdulle 0:10
Program director.
Sarah Burke 0:12
Program direc... Show more
Oral History with Miski Abdulle, 2019
Sarah Burke 0:01
Hi, this is Sarah Burke with Augsburg University and I'm here with Miski Abdulle, the program manager
for the Immigrant Women Advocacy Program at the Brian Coyle Center-Miski Abdulle 0:10
Program director.
Sarah Burke 0:12
Program director. You're right, sorry. [laughter] We are here at the Brian Coyle Center in Minneapolis,
Minnesota on Thursday, October 31, 2019. Miski, could you please state your full name and your
birthday?
Miski Abdulle 0:25
My name is Miski Abdulle. I was born ----------.
Sarah Burke 0:33
Um, can you tell me a little bit about your childhood and Somalia? Like, did you have any siblings or
what were your parents like?
Miski Abdulle 0:40
I have uh, seven... my mom has seven children. And my father and myself and my grandma. We grew up
in a household that's full of love and happiness. I had a little challenge when I was born. I was a
premature.
Sarah Burke 0:58
Oh, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 0:58
At that time, I can tell you was not like, very well like here how premature treated. And I was in hospital
and my mom went home, the doctor go home, and my grandma decided to take me out from the hospital-Sarah Burke 1:16
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 1:16
--from incubator and they said, "No, no, no Halima sign this," and that time they signed my
toe...my...what's called... thumb.
Sarah Burke 1:28
Oh, yeah your thumb. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 1:30
And then they were like, "You cannot take," because they made her sign it. She said, "No, she has God. If
she die on better health, she's alive. She will survive and she will be a teacher.
Sarah Burke 1:42
Oh!
Miski Abdulle 1:43
My grandma told me from that incubator.
Sarah Burke 1:46
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 1:47
And I survive it.
Sarah Burke 1:49
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 1:49
She took me small town where her mom was and have cows and my mom was not feeling well, so she
was obligated to be there for my mom. So she will take me, so my mom don't suffer.
Sarah Burke 2:01
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 2:02
The baby who was incubated.
Sarah Burke 2:04
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 2:05
So that started my survival from there.
Sarah Burke 2:08
Yeah. So, you had a lot of strong women in your family?
Miski Abdulle 2:11
Yep.
Sarah Burke 2:12
Yeah. So what was your relationship like with your grandma?
Miski Abdulle 2:16
Oh, very sweet. I miss her so much.
Sarah Burke 2:19
Yeah. And were you close with your mom too?
Miski Abdulle 2:23
I was close with my mom. My mom died 2011.
Sarah Burke 2:26
Oh, I'm sorry.
Miski Abdulle 2:27
My grandma died 1997? No. 1979.
Sarah Burke 2:33
So a while ago, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 2:35
No, 1989.
Sarah Burke 2:38
Okay.
Miski Abdulle 2:39
She died when she was 93 year old.
Sarah Burke 2:42
Oh, wow. She lived a long life. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 2:44
And she was a very strong woman. She used to like to give people place to stay, food. She used to like to
take care of people.
Sarah Burke 2:54
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 2:54
There was no system like shelters or things-Sarah Burke 2:57
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 2:58
--but that was in her.
Sarah Burke 2:59
Yeah. Did that kind of... is that kind of what instilled in you the idea that you want to help people like you
grow around that?
Miski Abdulle 3:06
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 3:07
Yeah. Was there like any poverty or any homeless people in the area that you grew up?
Miski Abdulle 3:15
There were people who were homeless, because whenever they come from out of town-Sarah Burke 3:19
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 3:19
--and we were in urban live, so she used to have a land and she used to build little huts, little things. Or
some men, they come from nomad life and they want to be soldiers.
Sarah Burke 3:31
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 3:32
And they could marry from the town and then she will, he will leave the woman with him. And he will go
for training for three months sometimes, six months. And when the men come back, if they don't give
back their wife, or they could pay. My grandma used to punish the man.
Sarah Burke 3:50
What do you mean punish?
Miski Abdulle 3:52
She used to tell him like, she used to embarrass them. She used to tell him, "Oh, we keep her for your
family... like I remember when I was like 10 or 11, she had one of the families was...uh, also there were
some time relatives. So she had them live with us. But the lady was cleaning helping, she had a child, so
when her husband come, he came with a brand new watch and nice clothing and she's like my grandma,
"Come here. Sit down. Where you got this watch?" "Oh I, uh, um..." "Give it to her now. [laughter] We
raising your son and your wife and you're not paying anything?"
Sarah Burke 4:33
Yeah!
Miski Abdulle 4:33
"You think, what, what do you think of her?"
Sarah Burke 4:35
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 4:36
"You're not in your woman. You didn't think about her!" "Oh, of course I know she's in good hands."
"Oh, she's in good hands. If you pay us rent or give us anything? No. Okay, give her the watch, go take
sell it and get the money for that."
Sarah Burke 4:51
That's amazing!
Miski Abdulle 4:51
My grandma was, she had that kind of personalities.
Sarah Burke 4:54
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 4:56
I remember when she get much older, Sometimes she don't eat her breakfast. She wait until she sees
someone, she used to sit outside the door. She waits until she sees, a beggar used to come, you know-Sarah Burke 5:08
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 5:09
--people who do begging for life. So when they come, she will say, "Hey, eat." She'll give up her
breakfast.
Sarah Burke 5:18
Aw.
Miski Abdulle 5:19
She will say, I know I will have a dinner and give her food. She won't stay hunger, for God's sake, to give
somebody who has his stomach empty to be satisfied.
Sarah Burke 5:32
Wow.
Miski Abdulle 5:33
So she had that kind of personality. I think I get from her to survive or help woman in my world.
Sarah Burke 5:42
Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 5:43
I get from her.
Sarah Burke 5:45
When you were growing up, were there other people in the community that were very supportive of
women or was your grandma... I guess the question I'm trying to ask is, was it common to treat women
the way that grandma did, where you lived, or were women not treated as well?
Miski Abdulle 6:03
Everywhere there is a human being, you know, that treat women and children, everybody, but women
don't have place that time.
Sarah Burke 6:10
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 6:11
And even now it's worse than before.
Sarah Burke 6:13
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 6:14
Before women were respected, before women people were kind to woman, but now and people, every
woman had her family, but I'm talking about those who are coming from nomad life are coming to urban
life.
Sarah Burke 6:27
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 6:27
Who don't have nobody no support system. That's when she was helping them.
Sarah Burke 6:32
Yeah, that makes sense.
Miski Abdulle 6:34
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 6:35
Um, coming here, uh, in Minneapolis, working with women here, how does, do you see some similarities
to like, how women were treated, um, in Somalia when you were young, and how women are treated here
that you get to meet and talk to and help out?
Miski Abdulle 6:59
Here woman they have opportunity to find like, resources and things like that. Woman in Somalia back
then and now it's worse. They don't have that opportunity.
Sarah Burke 7:12
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 7:12
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 7:13
Is that because of the civil war that's been going on or...?
Miski Abdulle 7:17
Because of the civil war and people lost, like family value.
Sarah Burke 7:21
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 7:22
Because people were displaced. People were widows. They were like single mothers, they were
everywhere by themselves, you know, and sometimes people take advantage of them and things like that.
Sarah Burke 7:37
Yeah. Um, [phone ringer] I'm kind of skipping down to one of the other questions. Um, I kind of wanted
to ask you about..so you do a lot of projects. I was going to come to the vision board meeting and I had a
class during that time. I was sad, but and then you do the Women's Night Out which is super popular. And
you talk about, you know, your grandma and you've always had this affinity for helping women. Um,
when you organize or are part of the events like Women's Night Out, um, what are you...what message
are you trying to get across to these women or what do you want to do at these...these events?
Miski Abdulle 8:29
I like to, uh, I not only participate, but I co founder of this in this neighborhood. We are three M's. Mary
Parisuti, Mary True, and myself Miski. So this is the event for Cedar Riverside neighborhood. Oh, well,
also residents and people who work in the neighborhood, people who go to school here the colleges, they
but, they plan with us. The main goal is to celebrate womanhood and bring out the people to meet and
make network and have dinner. I wish we can do this every month or every other six months, but we
make it once a year, where we bring the resources together and make, create an event for woman, for a
woman to celebrate and make network and have dinner together and we bring for them speakers. And
every year is getting bigger and bigger and bigger.
Sarah Burke 9:32
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 9:33
This year we had the, the first time ever we had the governor's wife. She just saw from the flyer, from
the... I think she started working with expo. She learned that, she's seen the flyer and she asked people if
she can come and attend this and we said, "Yes welcome!"
Sarah Burke 9:52
Of course, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 9:53
Yeah, so this year was also very good that we had the mayor..uh, the governor's wife.
Sarah Burke 10:00
Yeah, Mary was saying something...
Miski Abdulle 10:02
--attended with us. So every year is getting bigger.
Sarah Burke 10:05
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 10:06
We are doing many years, yeah.
Sarah Burke 10:09
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 10:10
Very beautiful event, yeah.
Sarah Burke 10:13
I'm so excited to go. [laughter] It'll be fun. What makes this women's night out event so important? Why?
Why do you think we need more of these events?
Miski Abdulle 10:26
Yeah, we need to celebrate womanhood, we need to recognize each other. We need to be like, yeah, we
are here.
Sarah Burke 10:34
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 10:35
You know, if you have a student or you have a woman who live in the apartment and don't have that
much network or you're breaking isolation, you know, it's, it's a fun, say, oppportunity for a woman to
come together and celebrate. And it's important for me to be part of it.
Sarah Burke 10:53
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 10:54
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 10:56
Other than... so, you founded this and, um, you do like the events, but what do you do on a day to day
basis for your job? Like a... just a Monday through Friday? What do you do for work?
Miski Abdulle 11:12
I do so many things. [laughter] So many things, sometimes even I don't know how to do this, finish this
up, do that, but the main job that we do is I oversee the program. It is an immigrant woman advocacy
project, but it's a program now. It was a project that addresses domestic violence and sexual assault.
Sarah Burke 11:36
Oh, wow.
Miski Abdulle 11:38
I'm not doing by myself, I am doing with advocates as well skilled, well trained, and they are well
equipped. So it is a very good program that I everyday enjoy doing it.
Sarah Burke 11:52
Yeah, that's amazing.
Miski Abdulle 11:53
Yeah. So it different like, sometimes we'll do community gathering, committee meetings, collaboration
with organizations, other organizations, outreach, you know. I enjoy mostly one on one.
Sarah Burke 12:11
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 12:12
This client one or one. I enjoyed that. And I still do that. I can't get away from that. [laughter]
Sarah Burke 12:19
Do you get to meet with advocaters one on one or is it like client...?
Miski Abdulle 12:24
I meet with advocaters every other week. What staff we have a staff meeting. Also, I meet with other
advocaters with other organizations, because our program is a community based advocacy. So we
working with shelters, and we're working with hospitals, clinicals, teachers, schools, lists. I meet also with
victims one on one.
Sarah Burke 12:50
Oh, wow.
Miski Abdulle 12:51
Yeah. Whatever they comfortable to meet with. We accompany them to court. We help them teach...
Sarah Burke 12:59
Wow.
Miski Abdulle 12:59
Yeah, so it is an opportunity for a woman to come here and find they have these rights like this
opportunity that they let they have the rights that if they choose to to get out of abuse-Sarah Burke 13:15
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 13:16
--and violence, yeah.
Sarah Burke 13:18
Wow, is that, is meeting with victims one on one sometimes difficult? Do they share like personal stories
and things with you sometimes?
Miski Abdulle 13:27
We have success stories and we have stories that didn't go anywhere. We see everything, yeah.
Sarah Burke 13:33
Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 13:34
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 13:35
That'd be, that'd be hard.
Miski Abdulle 13:36
Yeah, the older women are more into, like hiding the pain and because they've been enduring this many,
many years and it's very hard for them to get out.
Sarah Burke 13:49
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 13:50
Unless he divorce her or he send her back Africa and he remarry another new one. But it's hard for them
to recognize that they are in abuse.
Sarah Burke 14:00
Yeah,
Miski Abdulle 14:01
Yeah, but the new generation, they, you know, they'll learn, they have rights and they are... like So we
work with women who are over... 50 or even any woman from 18 to... yeah.
Sarah Burke 14:18
Yeah, that's that's quite-Miski Abdulle 14:20
And we have some success stories and we have some, uh, challenges also.
Sarah Burke 14:24
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 14:25
It's not easy to operate program like this in the heart of the community. So we keep it safe for ourselves
and also woman.
Sarah Burke 14:32
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 14:34
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 14:35
Yeah, that would be difficult. See you...that was kind of interesting that you talked about how the older
generation, um, is kind of taught to hide the pain a little bit more and not express it. And the new
generation is starting to learn to do that. What do you think causes women especially to like keep their
emotions in and not express?
Miski Abdulle 15:03
The community stigma.
Sarah Burke 15:04
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 15:06
The things that they're not also not trust in the system. Um, the finance part. If she speak up, maybe she'll
lose the house, she will lose her kids. She will be in the streets. They don't want to do that.
Sarah Burke 15:23
No, yeah. And before this job, uh, I read that you'd worked at Lutheran Social Services and, uh, Way to
Grow...
Miski Abdulle 15:35
How you find out that? You got my resume or...? [laughter]
Sarah Burke 15:39
Your LinkedIn! It says... you did all this stuff.
Miski Abdulle 15:42
Oh!
Sarah Burke 15:44
What did you do at Way to Grow? What was your position?
Miski Abdulle 15:48
Oh Way to Grow was Pillsbury United Communities.
Sarah Burke 15:50
Oh, still...
Miski Abdulle 15:50
I am... yeah. It was a home visiting program.
Sarah Burke 15:54
Oh, cool!
Miski Abdulle 15:55
Yeah. We used to go with public health nurses. I used to both public nurse to homes for pregnant mothers
and children under five year old. So it was fun that time.
Sarah Burke 16:09
Yeah! And then at Lutheran Social Services, did you do a similar thing or a little bit different?
Miski Abdulle 16:14
I did different.
Sarah Burke 16:15
Okay.
Miski Abdulle 16:16
I was working as a employment counselor. Well, I, one year I did that. And in the second year I become
workshop instructor.
Sarah Burke 16:26
Oh!
Miski Abdulle 16:27
Yeah, teaching women how to find, how to create a resume, how to find a job, how to mock interviews, to
do this and that.
Sarah Burke 16:36
That's really cool.
Miski Abdulle 16:37
Yeah, so I was always working with woman from my community, who were, they were thinking they
don't have no skill, but I create resumes for them from their regular day to day skills that they do at home.
Like childcare.
Sarah Burke 16:54
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 16:55
Housekeeping, uh, doing beds, doing this and that. So, there are people that we, uh, help them find jobs
until today they're working the same job.
Sarah Burke 17:09
Wow.
Miski Abdulle 17:10
Yeah. Doing childcare assistant, doing, working in hotels, working in a retail at, uh, like TJ Maxx. I have
clients that I train them to work, to find job. They find job, and they're keeping their jobs today.
Sarah Burke 17:28
That's so important. [laughter] That's awesome.
Miski Abdulle 17:31
And I like that. Yeah.
Sarah Burke 17:32
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 17:33
Because I do believe if you don't have a job, you don't have anything.
Sarah Burke 17:37
Right. Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 17:38
Yeah. Person cannot be stable if they're just waiting for somebody to have to feed them.
Sarah Burke 17:45
Yeah. When we met last time, uh, you were talking about how your first job, uh, when you immigrated
was... were you cleaning...is?
Miski Abdulle 17:56
Housekeeping.
Sarah Burke 17:57
Yeah, yeah,
Miski Abdulle 17:58
I did housekeeping job my first time, my first job in United States.
Sarah Burke 18:02
Yeah. How did you um... how was that experience and how did you transition from the housekeeping to
your next job?
Miski Abdulle 18:12
I was, um, doing housekeeping, which is not my skill. [laughter] Because I was coming from middle class
in Somalia where, if you are, how if you are a working woman and your husband makes money, whatever
job he has, you have a maid, you have somebody make your bed, you have somebody cook food, you
have childcare, you have your sisters, your grandma--
Sarah Burke 18:36
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 18:36
--your mom, helping you out with the kids. So when I came to Virginia State, and I was told I have to find
a job. And I told them, "Oh, I'm a teacher back home and I want a get teaching." And they said, "Oh you
need to go to community college and take, you know, language classes and do this. And I'm like, going
back to school then I need to get that resource also.
Sarah Burke 19:06
Right.
Miski Abdulle 19:06
So anyways, there was a job counselor who was helping me. She find me job at this one hotel and then I
landed the job. She gives me the address, she said "Oh they're hiring, go there the and tell them you need
a job." And I was hesitant, but I said, "Oh, I need to get a job first. Maybe I can go back to school."
Sarah Burke 19:27
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 19:28
And then I went there and it was afternoon and they were like, holding my information through computer
or something. They were interviewing me on the spot.
Sarah Burke 19:36
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 19:37
And the lady was like, they look at each other, two ladies and she said, "This is clean." And I said, "What
do you mean clean?" "Oh, your Social Security, you don't have any... any work history or any criminal
history that we can have to fingerprint you or something?"
Sarah Burke 19:55
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 19:55
"Can you come tomorrow" I said, "Yeah, tomorrow, but I have to find how can I come here? What kind
of train can I come by here? What kind of transportation I will need this?" And my English was so broken
back then.
Sarah Burke 20:08
Yeah, I bet you just came and all of a sudden had to learn it right away. That's...yeah.
Miski Abdulle 20:14
And then they put me in this training with Latina lady, who was the supervisor with other Latina woman.
There was one African American lady and they were doing housekeeping and they were like, "Do this, do
this, do this." And I'm following them and working with them, I enjoy it. I had a body ache the first two,
three days. I was like maybe I will make muscles. This is good for me. [laughter] And then the lady was
telling me, "Go that room, go this room, do this, do that." And sometimes I get tired and frustrated, and
I'll come sit in one room. I'm watching TV and when I hear some people coming I turn off the TV. And
they come and yell at me, "How many hours you are in one room? Do this, do that. You didn't clean the
bathroom. You didn't do this." Anyways, so one of the days, to cut short this story this guy, he left a ring,
expressive ring, and his belt... belt for men. And then he's like, calling. No, when I got that I hide it from
her because this one lady told me your supervisor takes your tip.
Sarah Burke 21:31
Ope!
Miski Abdulle 21:32
So make sure when she tells you, "Go that room, go this room..." The rooms you have to go one by one.
Sarah Burke 21:39
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 21:39
Or go make turns. Get your tips and then go back to clean.
Sarah Burke 21:44
And then go...yeah.
Miski Abdulle 21:45
And then like, "Oh, if it is for me, I will get it. I don't want to theft the money." Because I didn't have any
like, fears of like why I don't get extra money, extra penny, extra dollar. I just had my you know, like we
do believe you will get what Allah gives you.
Sarah Burke 22:06
Exactly.
Miski Abdulle 22:07
Yeah, I don't have to ration, you know. And then, this time I'll get the biggest tip. I hide to take of the ring
and the belt and I bring it to the, my supervisor's supervisor.
Sarah Burke 22:24
Ok, so the top person.
Miski Abdulle 22:25
Yeah, I came to the basement she had her office there. I said to her, "I want to talk to you, can I come? I
don't want to complain." I said, "This is not complain. I find something and I want to give it to you."
Sarah Burke 22:36
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 22:38
And she said "Okay." Because the ladies start to complain about me not cleaning very well. And I'm
trying to say please let me keep my job. I will get used to it.
Sarah Burke 22:48
Yeah, I'll get better.
Miski Abdulle 22:50
I'm not better. I want to [laughter] So the lady, I give her the money at the belt. She said "Oh, actually we
getting a call... phone call. And he left message. Let me call him. Just go to your room. I said, "Okay."
The second morning when I came, she was waiting in the lobby. She gave me envelope. She said, "The
guy came. He got his stuff, and he left for you this envelope." I said, "Envelope?" I opened this hundred
dollar cash [laughter].
Sarah Burke 23:29
You're like, yes. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 23:31
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 23:31
You did the right thing.
Miski Abdulle 23:32
It was back when I was making like $40 a day, I was making and that day I got a hundred dollar.
Sarah Burke 23:37
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 23:38
And then after a week, she tell me, "Me and my husband, we're going to attend this concert. Where do
you live? By the way? I saw your address. You're not very far. Do you mind if I drop my son and my
daughter to stay with you two hours and you will, we will pay you." And I said, "Yeah, I love children-Sarah Burke 24:00
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 24:00
--and this is my phone number, my home phone number, call me"--there was no cell phones that time. So
I gave her and then she bring her children. One Saturday evening, she bring her children. She said, "They
are well fed." They were not children who were using diapers. They were like three, and the other one
was five or six, I'm not sure. And then she start telling their friends and she told me, "Miski, you know
what, you will be good at doing childcare." And I tell her, "I don't have a house-Sarah Burke 24:36
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 24:37
--or center or facility to take care of children. Yeah, I have the skills and I am teacher elementary schools.
I also have children of my own.
Sarah Burke 24:47
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 24:48
And I am really, I love children. And then she said, "Okay, how about if I, my, my, my friend who is
interested to bring to you her son time to time and I will bring you maybe once a month my children. And
we will pay you." I said, "Okay."
Sarah Burke 25:07
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 25:08
Then I get the idea of getting childcare in my home. But before I do that my son, who was kindergarten,
he is afraid of the teacher. She's a white woman. And he's too scared of her.
Sarah Burke 25:22
Oh, no.
Miski Abdulle 25:23
My son. Yeah.
Sarah Burke 25:25
Why was he afraid?
Miski Abdulle 25:26
He was just scared of whenever he sees, he says, "She has a hair! [laughter] She is this, she touch me. I'm
afraid!"
Sarah Burke 25:35
Oh, no! [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 25:41
I don't know where he get that, but he was so scared of the teacher. And he used to cry, so he used to cry
when he enteredthe classroom. I have to hide in the window and see if he settled down and this and that.
And she calls me, "Come in, your son only calm down, go." And the housekeeping, I switch that time to
afternoon.
Sarah Burke 26:01
Oh, okay.
Miski Abdulle 26:02
I used to go from 2 to 11 pm, about 10 pm, I think. In the morning, I used to sit with him in the class. And
then a lot of refugee children came from my country and from other places. And I was the only mother
who was able to communicate English, broken English and stuff. And then she said, "Miski, why don't
you work with us? We will hire you to come here. Actually there's a child care in the school. That
mothers will go work and they bring their children for the class, the regular class. So they need someone
there and you can put your son." And I told them, "I don't have money to pay for him childcare."
Miski Abdulle 26:46
And she said, "No, we will show you how the childcare will get paid and you will be paid."
Sarah Burke 26:52
Wow!
Miski Abdulle 26:55
And then I told my supervisor at the the housekeeping, I told her, "You know what, I'm getting every
other week, and or every week and there's children in my home and now there's a child care center
offering me job. I want to just, you know, stop this."
Sarah Burke 27:12
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 27:12
And then she said, "Oh, that's cool. My son also goes. I know the school. Is your children going there?"
"Yes." And she said, "Let me find out what kind of jobs that you will do with them. She really helping
me, that woman. And then she went with me there. So, sometimes I get emotional. So she was like asking
them questions, "What kind of job? How much she will be paid? What's gotta...doing this, this, and that?
And she said, "Kids can come to childcare?" Also I have my daughter who's going preschool that time.
And then we started working with the school that way from how still to be a teacher assistant in the
childcare, the public school.
Sarah Burke 28:00
That's so cool.
Miski Abdulle 28:01
Yeah, I was doing that. And then I came here. When I came here I started working at the schools also.
Sarah Burke 28:10
Oh, cool.
Miski Abdulle 28:11
Yeah, Minneapolis Public school, I was the first Somali person who interpret between the family liason
and, uh, parents.
Sarah Burke 28:20
Wow, that very...
Miski Abdulle 28:21
1995, I came here. I came 1993 in Virginia State.
Sarah Burke 28:29
What made you, uh, come from Virginia to Minnesota?
Miski Abdulle 28:34
Craziness. [laughter] People from my community were calling me and my sister was here too. They
calling me, "If you come here and you will get paid $200 dollar an hour just to interpret. What languages
interpreted?" I speak also Arabic and is there Somali and what else languages? And they said, "We don't
know about Arabic. Somalis are too many here. If you come here you will find nice work at the hospital
or schools."
Sarah Burke 29:05
Oh, wow.
Miski Abdulle 29:07
And then when I came here, my sister was not doing very well. We couldn't get along.
Sarah Burke 29:15
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 29:15
So I ended up going to shelter. I decided to go shelter because this time I am like coming from the
experience of working with ministry...
Sarah Burke 29:28
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 29:29
And getting to know my skills and my, you know, I can't do what I can't and I don't want to be like with
hold without home.
Sarah Burke 29:37
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 29:38
'Cause if you don't have a stable home you can't have a job.
Sarah Burke 29:40
No, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 29:42
And then I end up first renting this one lady from, uh, she was living in a house and she was like always
behind rent and stuff. And then she said I want to, um, rent out my master bedroom, including the
furniture. And I'm looking for a woman. So the Somali community that time, they told me there was a
Somali woman, uh, rents out one bedroom. I went to settle with her and stay with her. And the woman
was a lady who was kind of like very different than me when it comes to family-Sarah Burke 30:22
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 30:23
--value or parenting or something.
Sarah Burke 30:25
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 30:25
So she was like, outgoing person and she like travel here and there. And she find somebody who cook and
cleaning, stay doing home with children, 'cause she was single, and I'm single.
Sarah Burke 30:37
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 30:38
So she disappear from me for three months.
Sarah Burke 30:41
Three months?
Miski Abdulle 30:42
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 30:43
Oh, wow.
Miski Abdulle 30:44
And she used to call me time to time her home line phone, 'cause there was no cellphones.
Sarah Burke 30:51
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 30:51
And people tell me, and she calls me wrong numbers. That time numbers were not even screen or
something.
Sarah Burke 30:59
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 31:00
Anyways, whenever she call me. She tells me, "I'm in Chicago, Illinois." "What's Chicago, Illinois?"
"Somewhere there. I am here, I am in Texas. I'm coming after two days." And people tell me she was in
Cedar with her friends just hanging up there.
Sarah Burke 31:18
Oh, so she told you she was somewhere fancy and she was just right-Miski Abdulle 31:22
Right in the Twin Cities. [laughter] I'm telling everybody I have this one lady. She's so nice with the kids.
Sarah Burke 31:30
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 31:31
I get break. I don't want to go back my house. I am afraid if I go back, she will leave me and this and that.
So I couldn't leave eight children. I have four and her four children.
Sarah Burke 31:41
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 31:43
I was raising them by myself.
Sarah Burke 31:45
Oh my goodness.
Miski Abdulle 31:46
And she had one disabled child in the, in her family.
Sarah Burke 31:49
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 31:50
And school is coming. And she know the appointment and the time they come in with a social work, so
she will come with them.
Sarah Burke 31:57
Oh...when the social work-Miski Abdulle 31:58
And she would tell me in my language, "Don't say anything, because these people gonna take all eight
kids." And I'm like, boom.
Sarah Burke 32:06
Yeah, keep your mouth. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 32:08
The social worker, the school social work, she asked me if I needed job. They want to hire somebody at
this school, and I said, "Yeah. I wanna find job."
Sarah Burke 32:19
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 32:21
I said...the lady had met my mission and said, "Hey, you need to stay with the kids today because I'm
going to go with these people there. They want to show me this school.
Sarah Burke 32:32
Good for you.
Miski Abdulle 32:32
And she was hearing the whole, you know, conversation to find me job. And she's telling me, "That
school is very far, it's in Edina. You don't have transportation, how you going to go there?" I said, "I'm
gonna go see."
Sarah Burke 32:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 32:46
I went their, they tell me, "Put your purse and your scarf somewhere."
Sarah Burke 32:50
Ope.
Miski Abdulle 32:51
I don't used to put scarf that time even-Sarah Burke 32:53
Oh, okay.
Miski Abdulle 32:54
--you know, I used to open my hair. And then I start working there as, um, interpreter for the family
liason, the school nurse, teachers, ESL teachers, I work with them. Two years I did that before I came to
PUC.
Sarah Burke 33:12
That's so cool. What languages do you translate for?
Miski Abdulle 33:15
Somali.
Sarah Burke 33:16
Yeah. Wow, that's so cool.
Miski Abdulle 33:20
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 33:20
So are you still in contact with that woman that you lived with?
Miski Abdulle 33:25
Today? She's homeless.
Sarah Burke 33:26
Oh, no.
Miski Abdulle 33:28
Her children, one he died from overdose. That time they don't know about this. Nowadays, it's a big
epidemic. That last time. I mean, previous years he died like six years, five years ago. In different smaller
town, he died because he was overdose. And her other son was deported.
Sarah Burke 33:52
Oh, wow.
Miski Abdulle 33:53
Back to Africa. And her daughter's not doing very well and she herself not doing well.
Sarah Burke 33:59
Oh my goodness.
Miski Abdulle 34:00
She's still traveling around, goes different places.
Sarah Burke 34:04
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 34:05
I can't bring her to my house. But anytime she comes to me here, here and there, I can help her out, you
know.
Sarah Burke 34:12
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 34:12
I help her find housing. 'Cause she's in process of waiting lease. She's with friends and family, you know,
relatives? She's not doing very well.
Sarah Burke 34:22
That's sad.
Miski Abdulle 34:24
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 34:25
Um, going back to a happier topic. Uh, so you have four kids, do you have, er, how many boys how many
girls?
Miski Abdulle 34:33
Two and two.
Sarah Burke 34:34
Two and two? And what's the age difference?
Miski Abdulle 34:38
They are, my oldest son, he is 39. My second, she will be 37 in December this year and then, they were
very close to each other.
Sarah Burke 34:50
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 34:51
And then my other son, he's 28. And my daughter's just 27.
Sarah Burke 34:56
So...
Miski Abdulle 34:57
There's a gap in between the older and the two younger.
Sarah Burke 35:00
Yeah, in between. [laughter] And, um, when we met last time you talked, you mentioned, uh, your
daughters and you have one that lives in New York?
Miski Abdulle 35:10
My older daughter. Yeah.
Sarah Burke 35:12
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 35:12
My older son here. He has family.
Sarah Burke 35:15
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 35:15
My older daughter, she live in New York. She work for corporate. And my younger one, she is a manager
in one of the banks.
Sarah Burke 35:24
Oh!
Miski Abdulle 35:25
She's a manager of bank. She graduated from Augsburg also. And my youngest son, he is working for the
state of Minnesota. He is a veteran from Marines.
Sarah Burke 35:36
That's so cool. Your kids are really accomplished. [laughter] What was...this is a broad question, but what
were your favorite...um, no I'm going to change my mind on that question.
Miski Abdulle 35:51
No say it! [laughter] My favorite what?
Sarah Burke 35:54
I was gonna say what were your favorite parts about like raising your kids, like what do you love about
childcare and taking care...?
Miski Abdulle 36:01
It was easy to raise children back then-Sarah Burke 36:03
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 36:04
-- than now.
Sarah Burke 36:05
What do you mean?
Miski Abdulle 36:06
Back then there was no, like, the kids now, they have peer pressures-Sarah Burke 36:11
Oh, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 36:11
And all the kids, most of them not doing very well.
Sarah Burke 36:15
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 36:15
But the time I was raising children there was no fear of like they would join gang or and then homes are
not the same.
Sarah Burke 36:22
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 36:23
The home that the child grew up, if it's stable, and they have parents who take care of them, ask them, you
know, like... regular routine life-Sarah Burke 36:34
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 36:35
--we had with my children is different than nowadays. Nowadays, like children. There is a lot of our kids
are not doing well.
Sarah Burke 36:45
Yeah. You're right.
Miski Abdulle 36:46
So I used to have fun with my children. We used to go to after school programs Sabathani Community
Center was not far from me. We used to do activities together.
Sarah Burke 36:58
Fun.
Miski Abdulle 36:58
Like tonight Halloween, we used to do Halloween.
Sarah Burke 37:01
Yes!
Miski Abdulle 37:02
Yeah, we used to I used to do Halloween with my children, you know, but the more we stayed and the
more people you know, they learn more of the religion and stuff and the community all together now,
there are things that we do with our community and we don't do...like that much. But my children they
want they grew up they play with any child.
Sarah Burke 37:23
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 37:24
They have school mate friends. They used to go over sleep with parents... or invite them for birthdays. My
daughters, my sons... Oh, they used to come to my house. I used to be friendly with my children and
friends of their parents.
Sarah Burke 37:40
Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 37:41
Yeah. So when the child has that comfortability and confidence it's very hard for them to, you know, fail
or-Sarah Burke 37:50
Yeah, there's such a good support system.
Miski Abdulle 37:53
Yeah, yeah.
Sarah Burke 37:54
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 37:54
I remember there was a Latina, two, two Latina boys. Their father was a single father and they were
moving from California. They were our neighbors and he got sick. He eat some poison food and he had
the surgery in his neck or someplace. And we were allowing them to stay with my children. Like weeks
until he got better-Sarah Burke 38:21
Wow!
Miski Abdulle 38:21
--from the hospital. You know, 'til now my children, his children they've become grown up and he
married a woman. We are friendly with his new wife. The kids are... he become grandma, grandfather. I
become grandma, our grandchildren know each other now.
Sarah Burke 38:39
Oh, that's so cute.
Miski Abdulle 38:41
So we are like, it was very good. Like, you know, neighbors were open to each other.
Sarah Burke 38:48
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 38:48
People were very comfortable around each other. If the bus school bring children, neighbors will knock
for me the door and asked me, "Hey, can my son to stay with you a little bit because I have to run go
bring something or my son is coming this time can you give him the key?" We had that kind of
neighborhood. We, my children grew up.
Sarah Burke 39:12
That sounds amazing.
Miski Abdulle 39:12
It's different now, it's different now, like people afraid from each other now.
Sarah Burke 39:16
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 39:17
But back then it was very beautiful. 1995 we move this state and we stayed till now. Yeah, so...
Sarah Burke 39:28
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 39:30
And then we live in a stable place for 20 years now. So we have many, many, we have many, neighbor
neighbors that are still some of them here and some of them move but we have communication. It's a-Sarah Burke 39:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 39:44
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 39:45
That's so amazing. It's a family but yeah, in a way. I like that. Yeah, I was... I work at or I volunteer at an
elementary school and a few students were talking about, there was a shooting in their neighborhood this
past week. And just the fear that they have, because-Miski Abdulle 40:06
In North side or South side Minneapolis?
Sarah Burke 40:08
It was actually in, uh, North St. Paul, in the Rondo neighborhood.
Miski Abdulle 40:13
Oh, yeah. I remember North St. Paul.
Sarah Burke 40:15
Yeah. So, yeah, there's...It's sad to see that they can't go outside and play because they're afraid.
Miski Abdulle 40:22
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 40:23
Yeah. Um, you also, uh, talked about, a little bit about, you know, your kids growing up and like, making
friends with everyone and because you know, when you're young, you know, you don't see it. You're just
like, oh, friends, everyone's a friend. What kind of things did you bring back from your childhood that
you like, taught your kids? Were there any like games or like traditions, family traditions that you always
did?
Miski Abdulle 40:54
Yeah, I tell them...storytelling.
Sarah Burke 40:56
Oh, yeah. Yeah. That's so cute. Um, was... was it difficult to teach your kids about the Somali culture?
Were they, did they gravitate towards, you know, American Western culture? Or do they struggle with
like the mix of both because you...
Miski Abdulle 41:20
I myself, struggle with that.
Sarah Burke 41:22
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 41:23
I myself struggle with that.
Sarah Burke 41:24
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 41:26
Because women in my age, you know, when I am with them, like at the mosque and places, like
sometimes I feel like maybe I'm weird.
Sarah Burke 41:36
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 41:37
'Cause I like to, like to put nail polish. I like sometimes like just like dress like this.
Sarah Burke 41:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 41:44
And I'm not naked, but when I am at the mosque I have to put over.
Sarah Burke 41:50
Gotcha.
Miski Abdulle 41:50
I have to clean my nail polish. Maybe hide the stain. But sucks my toe because I like to do my toe.
Sarah Burke 42:00
Yeah. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 42:02
Otherwise they will tease me. "Oh, you have this!" I'm like again like a child, like no. So it is beautiful.
I'm not saying it's bad to keep your culture.
Sarah Burke 42:14
No.
Miski Abdulle 42:15
But also you want to be like... be with everybody.
Sarah Burke 42:19
Exactly, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 42:20
You want to be like look like, you know, you're doing your eyebrows, you do your nail. You know you're
gonna, I don't know how to tell you that, but I won't be like...
Sarah Burke 42:33
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 42:34
....assimilate, like I don't want to look, I look different maybe. But you know when we were talking about
when I was new refugee and now, I feel now I'm a stranger than before.
Sarah Burke 42:50
Really?
Miski Abdulle 42:51
I feel now I look different than mainstream... because of these things that going on nowadays, oh this is
Somali, oh this is this.
Sarah Burke 43:02
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:03
You know? Before I was Somali, I was look like the same I am.
Sarah Burke 43:07
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:08
But I didn't had that feeling of like, "Oh, what they would say."
Sarah Burke 43:13
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:13
You know? We had the hosting community of people who are really welcoming and accepting [inaudible]
and they see you as a human being. But some places, nowadays, you yourself afraid. Like, when you walk
into the store at the mall or someplace, the person was buying something or even the person who's selling
things. They will double check on you if you are... "What's your action or what you want to do or..."
Sarah Burke 43:46
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:47
We didn't have that before.
Sarah Burke 43:49
No.
Miski Abdulle 43:49
I didn't have that before.
Sarah Burke 43:51
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:52
I was just like normal asking questions. This is-Sarah Burke 43:55
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 43:56
Look at the CDs, look in the prices and stuff. But now they will drop everything, they'll come to you.
"How can I help you?"
Sarah Burke 44:03
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 44:04
"You want to buy something? What is it?" Like they will question you to make you uncomfortable.
Sarah Burke 44:10
Yeah. Do you-Miski Abdulle 44:11
Back then I didn't felt that way.
Sarah Burke 44:13
Do you think that started occurring after 911? Or when did you start noticing that that changed?
Miski Abdulle 44:21
Even after 911, it wasn't bad.
Sarah Burke 44:24
Really? Yeah, you're right. Like lately there seems to be a lot focus on it, which is interesting.
Miski Abdulle 44:30
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 44:30
When you start wearing a headscarf and hijab. [laughter from Miski] You laugh.
Miski Abdulle 44:35
I start wearing like, You know what? I am born Muslim. And I'm Muslim and I have good life. But when
I was growing, it was different.
Sarah Burke 44:46
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 44:47
We had, we were like modern Somali. At least the people from the urban life in Mogadishu, the capital
city. I am born there, I'm grown up there, all that. It become like, normal to ask to be that way in the
world we go into war. So I left the country little bit before the Civil Wars.
Sarah Burke 45:09
Okay.
Miski Abdulle 45:10
And most of it I live in Egypt.
Sarah Burke 45:12
Oh, really?
Miski Abdulle 45:13
Yeah. So in Egypt, you have Muslim and non Muslim, and Muslim themselves are Westernized, some of
them, some of are crossing, you know? And always, even when we were not covering, we always believe
Allah and we always like, show you are good Muslim.
Sarah Burke 45:33
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 45:34
But nobody ever asked me "Why don't you pray?" Or... and it was very shame woman to go to mosque
where I grew up, at least, you know, we didn't have that.
Sarah Burke 45:44
Huh, interesting.
Miski Abdulle 45:46
Yeah, even my grandma and my father was praying in our wash room. But my grandma never asked us,
"Why don't you prayer? Why don't you do this?" never asked us. So, but we were Muslim and we have
that in our head. Like, you are a Muslim, Muslim, you're not have to lie. You don't have to hate. You don't
have to damage. You don't have to leave things the way you left. You know, be peaceful, good to your
neighbor. Be friendly. Be kind to human beings. That's what we live. That's what we have and that we are
Muslims also. Yeah. And then my family were more comfortable even when we were in back home. I had
my aunts were married Italian, my uncle one of them. His wife is British. So people were in our life early
enough.
Sarah Burke 46:40
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 46:42
My sister used to tell me like, "Are you gonna have...? My mom side is light skinned and my father was
really dark. Handsome man, and I am dark woman. So when we were little girls, my sister used to say to
me, "You got to marry somebody dark like you." [laughter] And she was she used to tell me I'm gonna
marry... There was actor, Italian, handsome used to be. We don't used to have a television. We used to
have magazines. Magazines used to come to us in the post office.
Sarah Burke 47:19
Crazy, I can't even imagine.
Miski Abdulle 47:20
We used to go movies. We didn't have TV at home we used to go cinema. So when we were younger, we
both our parents, when we become teenagers we go ourselves. You know? I remember my father used to
let us outside the cinema, bringing us home because he's afraid people will look at us or-Sarah Burke 47:38
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 47:39
--take us or something.
Sarah Burke 47:40
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 47:41
So we grew up in that kind of Islam.
Sarah Burke 47:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 47:45
And when we came here, when I first come to Minnesota, I saw my community, the people who come
from the Somalia, Somalia, they were like, all cover up the woman.
Sarah Burke 47:57
Oh, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 47:57
And they are all putting in hjabs and stuff. And when I move here, my mom also was in Virginia before
the Civil War, when she came here first, she was like, "Who are these people?" 'Cause we went to Halal
Market and we find a woman who was covered up and I said, "These Somalis." She said "No, there are
not the Somalis I know."
Sarah Burke 48:19
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 48:19
And we were surprised. So when I started working at the public school, one of the girls, she asked me,
"You are Somali Christian or Somali Muslim? I tell her, "What do you mean?" She said, "You're not
covering your hair." I said, "I'm Muslim." She said, "Oh, okay." So she went home she said to her mom,
"Oh my teacher, Somali teacher, she's Muslim, but she don't have hijab." So she brings hijab from her
mom to me.
Sarah Burke 48:52
She brought you a hijab. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 48:54
Yeah. Or like she said that and then she bring me the hijab and then I put the hijab that they... I mean we
put gabasar. We used to call gabasar, like our traditional clothing. This we call gabasar.
Sarah Burke 49:09
Oh, okay.
Miski Abdulle 49:10
I used to put gabasar, but I used to put it like this [demonstrates].
Sarah Burke 49:12
Yeah, yeah so it was like around your neck.
Miski Abdulle 49:14
Yeah. And then if I'm near mosque or [inaudible] male figure older than me-Sarah Burke 49:20
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 49:20
--then used to cover
Sarah Burke 49:21
Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 49:22
Yeah. She bring me a small hijab and I remember was a beige color. I put on, since then I didn't put it
down.
Sarah Burke 49:32
Wow.
Miski Abdulle 49:33
And then when I came to Brian Coyle, um, people were like more into our community, you know and...
You know, there's days I put my dress, there's days I put my...uh, not hijab but uh, what do you call it,
abaya.
Sarah Burke 49:51
Oh, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 49:52
The black one. Like Fridays I like to go to abaya to go to hajj, but the days I have my nails done, I will
not go. [laughter]
Sarah Burke 50:03
You're like, "Oh, I won't go today!" [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 50:05
I pray here! But I have to learn and I learned, like I learned to pray, I learned to read the Qur'an, I learned
everything when I come to the community. Oh, me and my younger daughter. My younger daughter she
doesn't open her hair. We go to the mosque we read the Qur'an and we learn all hat. My older daughter
says like cowboy. [laughter]
Sarah Burke 50:28
She's like no. [laughter]
Miski Abdulle 50:30
No, no, no, no. Say we're just going to Somali mall. "Oh you guys going Somalia mall? Let me wait until
you guys come back and we'll go another place.
Sarah Burke 50:39
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 50:39
She's like that.
Sarah Burke 50:40
Wow.
Miski Abdulle 50:42
But my younger daughter I never ask her.
Sarah Burke 50:44
No, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 50:45
She just chose that.
Miski Abdulle 50:46
That's what she wants, yeah. Yeah.
Sarah Burke 50:50
Um, it's kind of interesting to see how...
Miski Abdulle 50:54
Maybe I'm talking too much.
Sarah Burke 50:56
No, no!
Miski Abdulle 50:56
You can stop me and say...
Sarah Burke 50:58
No, I just was going to ask you like, about the, because I feel like the idea of women being covered with
any sort of headscarf or hijab now is looked at like, "Oh, they're oppressed." They're like, forced to wear
it. And then, but no, that's not always the reality.
Miski Abdulle 51:16
It's not forced. No.
Sarah Burke 51:17
No. Like, your daughter chose that. No one made her feel that way.
Miski Abdulle 51:21
No, my daughter chose that. I didn't ask her to do that.
Sarah Burke 51:24
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 51:25
But it was.. okay, the Civil War when it comes, when people coming into refugee camps in neighboring
countries like Kenya, Ethiopia. I hear that there's people who came and taught them because people
stopped coming to the West.
Sarah Burke 51:43
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 51:44
So other people came and they teaching them that, "How are you going to be different than going to them
if your wife isn't?" You know? And then people also lost the people, their family members died. People
start coming very close to the religion and hijbab and Qur'an.
Sarah Burke 52:05
That makes sense.
Miski Abdulle 52:06
You know? They become to like that and then then, you know, gradually people start to like get into hijab
because the neighboring country, not like Somalia. Somalia one hundred percentage were Muslims in
Somalia. But in Kenya or Ethiopia there is Muslim, there is non-Muslim. There's Christian. This is other
peoples, you know, that believe other things, so the Muslims are practicing better than the Muslims
themselves-Sarah Burke 52:42
Oh, I see what you are saying.
Miski Abdulle 52:43
Because they are in the, this big bowl of Muslims-Sarah Burke 52:49
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 52:49
--here together.
Sarah Burke 52:50
Christian, non... Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 52:51
So the Somalis also they recognize, "Oh, we are Muslim and we're not doing this?"
Sarah Burke 52:56
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 52:56
So they started doing it.
Sarah Burke 52:58
That makes sense. Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 52:59
Yeah. But nobody's forcing nobody, but, you know, you can't even like let yourself without your hijab
when you are in the community, you know what I mean?
Sarah Burke 53:10
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 53:12
But sometimes when you go like conferences, like sometimes I go Walker Minnesota, I'm like, "Oh my
god! I want to keep this on my head!"
Sarah Burke 53:25
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 53:27
Nobody, no white guy come and shoot me!
Sarah Burke 53:30
Oh my goodness, right! Yeah, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 53:33
They think I'm gonna shoot someone, you know what I mean?
Sarah Burke 53:36
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 53:36
I always put down, keeping my purse.
Sarah Burke 53:40
You're like, "Not, no not right now."
Miski Abdulle 53:42
Put my hair, maybe a little hat.
Sarah Burke 53:45
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 53:46
Anyways, there's some things like now people are worried about than before.
Sarah Burke 53:52
Yeah, I just read this study that said that women that wear the hijab are... are victims of hate crimes way
more than women, Muslim women that don't wear the hijab because it's an identifier like a person, a
hateful person sees the hijab, and they know that immediately that you're Muslim. So then, yeah, that's
scary. You're right.
Miski Abdulle 54:17
It's scary, yeah.
Sarah Burke 54:17
That you have to think about that.
Miski Abdulle 54:18
Yeah.
Sarah Burke 54:20
Is that ever, like does that ever way on you, the fact that you can't go somewhere without being afraid?
Like...
Miski Abdulle 54:28
I stopped afraid after some time ago, there was a young lady was like, I was at the post office, and I was
coming out. She's coming in. I was coming out and she was entering there. And then she's like, "Go back
where you come from!" And nobody else was there. So I'm like, "Who she talking to?" [laughter] And
then she told me, "You, you need to go back where you come from!"
Sarah Burke 54:51
Oh my goodness! In Minneapolis or...?
Miski Abdulle 54:54
Minneapolis. Yeah, the main post office.
Sarah Burke 54:57
That's so scary, I'm sorry.
Miski Abdulle 54:58
She was like, look like young, beautiful girl-Sarah Burke 55:02
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 55:02
--like, normal person. And then I was so scared. I was like, "Why do you do to me this?"
Sarah Burke 55:08
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 55:09
I wish I had some place to go back.
Sarah Burke 55:11
Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, you can't go back to Somalia right now.
Miski Abdulle 55:16
I want to go back anytime. I went back this year, but I didn't like it, what I saw because it's still there's no
stability.
Sarah Burke 55:23
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 55:24
And nobody wanted to risk themselves to go there. But there is people who went back and do a good job
helping the community, the country. You know, I'm very proud of them. But now I'm getting older, you
know, I don't want to have to start from zero.
Sarah Burke 55:40
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 55:40
Like even if you have money you don't do very well there.
Sarah Burke 55:43
That's fair.
Miski Abdulle 55:44
Because you know, there is a lot of risks there going.
Sarah Burke 55:49
Um, we actually only have a couple minutes left. But I wanted, my last question. I kind of wanted to ask
you about how your idea of you said, like good Muslim has changed from when you were young and here
like how does that look differently in both places?
Miski Abdulle 56:10
Good Muslim?
Sarah Burke 56:13
Yeah, that's not the right word. But like, you know what, scratch that question. Um... let's see.
Miski Abdulle 56:26
Like, Muslim, when we're Muslim we're like, liberal mind. Is it good word to say?
Sarah Burke 56:33
Oh, yeah, more like...
Miski Abdulle 56:34
Open?
Sarah Burke 56:35
Yeah. Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 56:36
Like, go movies. Listen music, dancing when you want?
Sarah Burke 56:40
Uh, yeah. Yeah, I guess.
Miski Abdulle 56:42
We used to have that kind of life.
Sarah Burke 56:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 56:44
You know, but now, because there's some music and there's some people who say, [deep sigh].
Sarah Burke 56:51
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 56:53
And maybe because of the civil war there are so many people they have different experiences.
Sarah Burke 56:57
That's true.
Miski Abdulle 56:58
We went through a lot of things maybe they saw people dying in front of them. Maybe they were raped,
maybe there's like, they even themselves abuse somebody. We never know.
Sarah Burke 57:09
You never know. Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 57:10
They kind of like judging you if they see something that abnormal to them.
Sarah Burke 57:16
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 57:17
But normal to me-Sarah Burke 57:18
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 57:18
Or vice versa. So, when we have the woman night out, we started with doing music, and we do music. So
one of the days I invite this one lady who lives in the neighborhood, and I'm giving out the flyer and I told
her, "Hey, can you come please after two days here we're gonna have food, music."
Sarah Burke 57:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 57:45
She get upset when hear music, she cut the paper. She yell at me and she left. I was like, "Did that
offended her?" And then they told me, "Why you said music? She doesn't allow. She doesn't want it, she
thinks this is a shay daan (Satan in Somali)."
Sarah Burke 58:02
Oh, yeah.
Miski Abdulle 58:04
You know thing.
Sarah Burke 58:05
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 58:06
So I told them, "What?" After a time, after time we saw each other at the park. Go sometimes after a walk
in the summertime and meet with woman my age in the neighborhood here and greet them if I don't see
see them while. And then I saw her, I said, "How are you so and so?" Then she said, "I'm doing fine." She
said, "I want to apologize to you."
Sarah Burke 58:30
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 58:30
She said. I tell her, "What?" She said, "I yell at you and you didn't say anything."
Sarah Burke 58:37
That's nice that she apologized.
Miski Abdulle 58:38
"You didn't say anything. You just walk away. I tear up your flyer. I couldn't come back. It was so
shameful what I did to you." I really appreciated that. I told her, "Okay, can you just tell me one thing that
you want us to do? That will make you happy?"
Sarah Burke 58:59
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 59:00
And then she said, "Okay!" This was after that event.
Sarah Burke 59:05
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 59:05
You know? In the future event. And then come, and then she said, I have this thing that she does like,
with hands it's like those stuff. [shows weaving with hands]
Sarah Burke 59:19
Oh, like, does she knit or...?
Miski Abdulle 59:21
It's like...
Sarah Burke 59:21
Like, sew?
Miski Abdulle 59:22
It's not crochet, but it's like made of like, the regular crochet, but she make it in... from clothes. Old
clothes.
Sarah Burke 59:31
Yeah, yeah. I think I know what you mean.
Miski Abdulle 59:32
Yeah, and then you can put in a frame you can put your own. She does that. She doesn't have a market for
it.
Sarah Burke 59:40
Oh.
Miski Abdulle 59:41
So she said, "If I bring that I'll give you one. Can you sell for me for the woman?" And I tell her, "Okay.
If I let you sell things I have to let other people." I said, "This is not about selling. Even not about
advertising our programs. It's about just people getting together."
Sarah Burke 1:00:00
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 1:00:01
"But if you give me your form, legal permission, I can talk to people if they want to buy from you. And
this one, I will buy from you. How much you want it?" So I buy from her. And then she become very
close with me and she's like, "Hey, if they don't want the music, we can bring you brahmber like
traditional song.
Sarah Burke 1:00:23
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 1:00:24
So she's the one who gives me the idea about the brahmber. So I said, "Okay, if you know somebody
invite them we will pay them." So now she's really big friend of mine. She recruits people for us, she
comes time to time. She doesn't see me for a while she will call my cell phone. We become big friends
Sarah Burke 1:00:45
Oh, that makes me happy. Oh.
Miski Abdulle 1:00:48
Yeah, so they don't like music. Yeah, the more religious woman. They don't want to hear the music. They
think it is Satan.
Sarah Burke 1:00:57
Yeah, that's such a good idea to, to bring in the traditional songs. That'd be cool.
Miski Abdulle 1:01:04
Yeah, it was her idea.
Sarah Burke 1:01:05
Yeah. Um, I guess last is, I'd just like to ask, what do you see for yourself for the future? Do you like
going to you know, hang out with your grandkids and stuff like that?
Miski Abdulle 1:01:24
I will hang up with my grandkids and um... Yeah. I hope future you will bring happiness and health. I
hope like...although I am stuck with this one on one advocacy, you know, I would like to advance my
leadership.
Sarah Burke 1:01:44
Yeah.
Miski Abdulle 1:01:45
Into a broader, you know?
Sarah Burke 1:01:49
Very cool. Alright, I think that's all that I've got.
Miski Abdulle 1:01:51
Thank you.
Show less
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is December 7 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim citizens in the state of Minnesota. Her name is
Manal Hashw.
Manal Hashw 0:19
Good evening, Manal. How are you today?... Show more
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is December 7 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim citizens in the state of Minnesota. Her name is
Manal Hashw.
Manal Hashw 0:19
Good evening, Manal. How are you today?
Good evening, May. I'm good. Thank you.
May Kamsheh 0:25
Would you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.
Manal Hashw 0:30
My name is Manal Hashw. I am a..um..my background is an Egyptian
originally, and I have three kids. Married for 29 years. And I live in
Eden Prairie Minnesota.
May Kamsheh 0:53
Okay, when and where were you born in what town did you grow up in?
Manal Hashw 0:58
I was born in Egypt. And I grew up in Egypt, went to college. And I
came to United States like 1990.
May Kamsheh 1:10
You went to college in Egypt?
Manal Hashw
Yes.
1:12
May Kamsheh 1:14
What college was it?
Manal Hashw 1:16
I went to the engineering school. And I graduated 1989.
May Kamsheh 1:24
Oh, nice. So you came after you graduated college?
Manal Hashw 1:28
Yeah, I met my husband and we came together.
May Kamsheh 1:33
So you got married and then came?
Manal Hashw
Yeah.
1:36
May Kamsheh 1:36
Nice. Um, so before you came here, what was your childhood like in
Egypt?
Manal Hashw 1:43
Egypt it was good. We were like middle class family. My dad died when
I was like 11 and my mom raised me and my brother and sisters. I
finished my college degree and that was decent and good childhood.
May Kamsheh 2:10
That's good. Did you have any like early memories you remember from
it?
Manal Hashw 2:16
Yeah, I have memories about because I was from Alexandria, Egypt and
Alexandria is on the Mediterranean. And all my memories is about the
beach and walking in a beach and you know, and I go with my friends
swim and all these memories still was me.
May Kamsheh 2:41
That's fun. So, who are your parents? Or what were your parents like?
Manal Hashw 2:49
My, as I said, my dad died when I was 11. He was a major in the army
in Egypt and he died when I was 11. My mom was a school teacher and
then school principal and they were like working middle class.
May Kamsheh 3:16
Okay. So do you have any brothers or sisters?
Manal Hashw 3:20
I have one brother and two sisters.
May Kamsheh 3:26
What what were they like?
Manal Hashw 3:31
My two sisters still living back in Egypt now. My brother lives here
in Minnesota. They're very good. I'm the oldest..
May Kamsheh 3:41
Okay, so they're younger?
Manal Hashw 3:43
..they are younger than me and we are connecting, you know, I always
visit my brother here in Minnesota. I go to Egypt once in a while to
see my sisters, come back. So we're good.
May Kamsheh 4:00
That's good. So you said you graduated in Egypt and your career path
was engineering? So when you came here did you work in that field
still?
Manal Hashw 4:12
Yes. When I came here, I, I took some classes in computer science
besides my engineering degree, and I worked as a software engineer for
like three years. And then I my kids, you know, my third, my third
daughter came and it becomes very hard to work with three kids in this
field. So I decided to stay home and you know take care of the kids.
May Kamsheh 4:51
So that you go to like the University of Minnesota?
Manal Hashw
For what?
4:54
May Kamsheh 4:55
For the classes.
Manal Hashw 4:56
No, I went to a Technical College.
May Kamsheh
Oh okay.
4:58
Manal Hashw 4:58
For the for the software classes, I just needed to add some more
information to what I have and know about the system. So and, you
know, learn English very well as I can. And after this I was hired at
Gelco Information Network. It's a company in Eden Prairie, and I
worked there for like, three or maybe four years. Yeah.
May Kamsheh 5:32
Did you like it there?
Manal Hashw 5:34
Yeah, I did. I like it so much. But as a programmer, it's, you know,
you can't keep track of time. And when you have three kids, it's
impossible to you know, to manage both. So I just decided to stay home
andtake care of the kids.
May Kamsheh 5:56
Did you get have your kids here in Minnesota?
Manal Hashw 5:59
Oh, yeah. They're all born here in Minnesota.
May Kamsheh 6:09
So how was that when you first came here? Did you first you came to
Minnesota was the only state you've lived in?
Manal Hashw 6:16
Yes, yes. However I visited everywhere in United States. But yeah,
when I came I came here. First I didn't know how much cold [laughs] my
husband didn't give me an idea about how much cold is it. So I came in
September. So September was okay and that's going to be cold as
September but October, November, snow start to come Decemeber and I
said, Oh my gosh, what I put myself into? [laughs] Because the weather
there in Alexandria, Egypt is like San Diego, California Yeah, it's
like, hot and you know, nice and, and we never wear jackets or boots
or hats or and I started to learn you know how to deal with the
weather, you know?
May Kamsheh 7:16
So you got used to it?
Manal Hashw 7:18
No [laughs] I'm still working on it! [laughs more]
May Kamsheh 7:24
Same! So when you came here did you know a lot of English or did you
learn more here?
Manal Hashw 7:33
I learned more here because in Egypt we didn't we didn't have a lot of
you know we know English but as like the British way.
May Kamsheh
Oh yeah..
7:44
Manal Hashw 7:45
So it was a problem in the beginning with the English and also we
didn't have enough so I was in the beginning like afraid to talk to
anybody like listening and understanding I don't want to speak because
I don't want people to make fun of me. But it came by the time in, you
know?
May Kamsheh 8:07
Yeah, that's good.
Manal Hashw 8:08
I am still learning. [laughs]
May Kamsheh 8:10
So your college was in English in you classes in Egypt?
Manal Hashw
Half half.
8:15
May Kamsheh
8:16
Oh okay.
Manal Hashw 8:16
So and also is still the scientific terms, you know, and it's totally
different than the conversation. And it's different than when you have
somebody say a joke, and you don't understand what's behind this joke
or what, what does that mean or so it took time because it's not just
the language it's the culture too. You know?
May Kamsheh 8:39
Okay, yeah. So into the next set of questions, how was being a Muslim
in Minnesota when you first came when you first came here like?
Manal Hashw 8:52
It didn't really matter at all because I didn't feel any different you
know? We came here people were nice we're good, you know? I asked
about if there is a mosque here in Minnesota and I knew that that
Islamic Center in Fridley so you we were going there and events and
see people and sometimes pray but actually we never have a problem you
know as Muslims here.
May Kamsheh 9:27
Was the community small when you came here at first?
Manal Hashw 9:32
Yeah actually it's it's yeah expanded now. It was small. We have like
some friends around I didn't know everybody but I was busy with the
kids and work and but I I think it was smaller then we're talking
about 29 years ago. It's a long time.
May Kamsheh 9:55
Yeah. Okay, so You said you had kids, how many kids you have again?
Manal Hashw 10:03
I have three kids. And I got my first in 1991, then my second 1993,
and my third is 1997.
May Kamsheh 10:19
Do your kids live here?
Manal Hashw 10:21
Yeah. My first son. Yeah. He's he's married now. And he lives in
Plymouth. And my second son, he graduated from the U of M engineering
school. Yeah. And my daughter she graduated from the engineering
school U of M too. And they both working. So, and my oldest graduate
from Carson, not Carson. St. Thomas University. Yeah, with a business
degree and he works at Medtronic.
May Kamsheh 11:01
So they are all engineers?
Manal Hashw 11:03
No, two engineers and one business.
May Kamsheh
Oh, okay.
11:05
Manal Hashw
Yeah.
11:05
May Kamsheh 11:08
That's nice.
Manal Hashw 11:09
Yeah. [laughs] I'm glad I was able to, you know, direct them
May Kamsheh
Yeah.
11:16
Manal Hashw 11:16
And lead them to, to achieve their goals.
May Kamsheh 11:20
Was your husband engineer too?
Manal Hashw 11:21
Yeah, he is. He's a manager at Medtronic. And he's a mechanical
engineer.
May Kamsheh 11:31
Okay, so how is handling a job and kids like? You said it was hard?
Manal Hashw 11:37
It was very hard for me because I, I wanted to because I have the
Egyptian culture. And I'm here in US and I wanted to get the two good
things from what I can say that I wanted to get the best from the two
cultures.
May Kamsheh
Yeah.
11:59
Manal Hashw 12:00
So to do that you have to guide your kids and you have to be around
and watch them and talk to them and follow school and and to do that
with three kids it's it's hard when you work full time. So I you know,
I after like four years I quit and I decided to stay home for a few
years until they grow up and then I go back.
May Kamsheh 12:29
Did you go back to engineering?
Manal Hashw 12:32
No, it ends up i when i was raising the kid they were very young. I
wanted them to learn the language and religion. So I decided to and
the Islamic Center was in Fridley, we live in Eden Prairie, it's far
away. And I don't want to drive on every day there and so I am was
thinking why we don't have a small Sunday school or charter school or
anything here in Eden Prairie. So here when I started the Sunday
school
May Kamsheh 13:15
Okay, that follows me into my next question is; When did you start the
opening of the Sunday school, Al-Manar?
Manal Hashw 13:22
I am, it was very easy. [laughs] We weren't we weren't really looking
for a school. I was just wanted to have my kids learn language, the
Arabic language and the culture, the culture. And I was talking to my
friends, and they said just start the project and we'll support you.
So I went to the Eden Prairie district, and I talked to them about
what I want to do and if they can give me a space to rent, and have
the kids come every Sunday to learn language and culture um and they
agree to do that and I they given me the CMS school, Central Middle
School in Eden Prairie, to use for three hours every Sunday. And when
I got the permission, I started to recruit teachers and assistants and
you know, and then we build the school and we have, we had like around
200 students in this school, learning language culture. We had also
like 15 teachers. So I started I became busy with the school and I
forgot about engineering so [laughs] and I schools started in 2001 and
stayed for 12 years. I've been the principal of this school for 12
years. And it was a volunteer work. I was just working with teachers,
ordering books, helping kids, to create curriculum to help them learn.
And we worked for 12 years at the school.
May Kamsheh 15:34
So were there any challenges that you faced running the school? Like
not enough kids like signed up or you didn't have?
Manal Hashw 15:45
No, actually when we started we had a lot of people come to enroll
their kids in the school, because it was the only one in the South
West. And everybody Well, want to have, you know, the school close to
their house. So we have a lot of people come and sign up and the
challenge was sometimes, you know, to satisfy everybody and there is
different ideas and different agendas and but we I tried from the
beginning to use the school only for education and have the kids come
to learn. I didn't want to make it as a community center or a place
for people to come and sit and do activities, no, it just was just a
school and that's what I wanted and so the challenge is how to
convince parents you know, that this place only for school. And um but
I was able to do that from the beginning, and it's, it was a very
successful project.
May Kamsheh 17:06
Was it kids from all ages?
Manal Hashw 17:08
Yes. All Ages, and we had also adult classes too. And we had many
nationalities, Americans, Indians, Europeans, they all wanted to learn
the Arabic language, and the culture and some of about the religion
history so we will be doing that all ages.
May Kamsheh 17:37
Nice. So did you teach a class as well?
Manal Hashw 17:41
I did. Yeah. In the beginning, I was teaching because we were in a
process to try to find the right teachers took time to do that. So I
was teaching myself and then when we found enough teachers, I was only
doing the principal job and work mostly in managing, recruiting, doing
activities for the kids, plays on the stage, and music sometimes,
order the books you know? Principal work.
May Kamsheh 18:20
Did you like being a principal?
Manal Hashw 18:22
Yes, I, I think my engineering background helped me a lot to work on
this because having a project like this and interact with people, you
have to be organized, you have to put priorities, you have to have
your brain set a certain way to deal with everybody. And yeah, I it
was it was fun.
May Kamsheh 18:50
That's good. So why did it end up closing?
Manal Hashw 18:53
Because after 12 years, I'm tired. [laughs]. I got you know, I I, my
kids grown, you know, went to college, I was happy about how much they
know about Arabic language and culture and religion. And I wanted to
do something else, another project, you know? Which is I'm doing right
now trying, you know, tutoring kids math and science. I wanted to do
something different. So I asked people, if somebody want to take over
and do what I'm doing, but I guess we couldn't find somebody who put
all the time I was putting and energy. So we end up like we said,
we're gonna take a break. And it's been now three years. It's closed,
and nobody want to go and take the responsibility again.
May Kamsheh 19:53
I'm sure someone will hopefully.
Manal Hashw 19:55
Yeah hopefully. I think what happened now is because there is a lot of
schools right now in the Twin Cities. So people are divided in
different schools. And everybody went to school that close to their
house. So and settled, you know, so so I think we did a good job. And
we're proud of this school and what offered to the community, the
Egyptian and the Arab community, and just give a chance to other
people to shine and do other projects.
May Kamsheh 20:35
So it was overall successful you think?
Manal Hashw 20:38
Yes, it was. You know, I, you know, it's enough for me that this was
the first Sunday school in Minnesota that I created to help the Arab
community you know, with language and so I'm so proud of this project
and from this school, a lot of schools, you know, came and start. So,
yeah, I'm satisfied about working on this school.
May Kamsheh 21:11
Yeah, you should be really proud. That's really cool. You did that.
Manal Hashw
Thank you.
21:15
May Kamsheh 21:16
So you mentioned your other project you're working on?
Manal Hashw 21:20
It wasn't a project, it was because I love teaching. So I was I went
to the district, Eden Prairie school district, and I worked as a
paraprofessional there at the high school. And I was also a study
skills class teacher, because I was hired to teach students how to
study. I believe that if the kids know how to study and how to
organize themselves and how to beat the test they it's it's really
important to give them the this technical, you know, tools to use.
They will be great, you know in math and science. So I worked two
years at Eden Prairie high schools and then program canceled for money
or whatever. So I went back home again and I decided to do private
tutoring.
Okay, what age was that?
The high school school. That was high school. That was, yeah. 18 and
19.
May Kamsheh 22:37
So now you do private tutoring?
Manal Hashw 22:39
I do. It's not like a business but like, my friends if their kids need
help. One of my neighbors need help. So it's just like.
May Kamsheh 22:51
Oh okay, that's nice. So you mentioned the do you go to one specific
mosque here around here is there a mosque close to you?
Manal Hashw 23:07
There is the mosque on Shady Oak Road Masjid..I forgot the name. Um
just we go you know in Eid and I don't go like often. I don't go like
every Friday and no but I go to events when we have our holidays. I go
there. If the community having an event, so yeah, a good one in Eden
Prairie.
May Kamsheh 23:46
Okay. Have you ever faced any difficulties being a Muslim here?
Manal Hashw 23:55
After see after 9/11, we had we were confused and everybody was
confused and we didn't know what happened. So it's it's the we had
some difficulty for people to understand that what happened is has
nothing to do with Islam. And I tried my best to explain to my
neighbors, my friends, my because I have a lot of American friends and
I have my neighbors and I can meet you know, I volunteer in schools. I
work with kids in schools and everything so I have we had to explain
that this people are have you know, they're not they have nothing to
do with Islam. And that was all political all all. whatever they're
doing, violence for, for for an agenda in their head but this is has
nothing to do with the religion itself. And I think by the time people
understand now that you know, a lot of Muslim people here in US are
successful and part of the community that gets born there here, they
become their country. So, but that was the time that we had difficulty
but after this and before, everything is good.
May Kamsheh 25:29
That's good. Have you ever given speeches about Islam to a large crowd
or group of people?
Manal Hashw 25:40
Um no, I didn't speak to a large crowd. However, I spoke to my
neighbors like group of three or four, to explain what Islam is, and
what's Muslim do, what's the difference between the religion of Islam,
Christianity, and Judaism, and so it was usually a group of 2, 3, 4 to
talk to them about Islam, but I never like talk to a big crowd before.
May Kamsheh 26:14
Okay, and these people you talk to were they supportive?
Manal Hashw
26:18
Yeah, because people the problem is some people listen to the media
only or they never read about the history of Islam. They listen to the
media or some they see some videos on YouTube or you know, and create
an idea in their head about Muslims. And some people not, some people
know, you know, they read, they ask questions, they figured out. But I
always you know, have to talk to those people who are confused and
they don't know, you know, who's Muslims? What they're doing here,
especially with having some violence and trouble, sometimes related or
associated with the Muslims or the Islam. So I had to explain to them
that we have like 1 billion Muslims in the world. So if some group of
Muslims are did something bad or have a certain thinking or that
doesn't mean that all Muslims are the same and give them examples and
talk to them but the history it's good for people to know. You know,
so they don't judge you. They don't judge you based on media or bad
information.
May Kamsheh 28:01
Yes, that's good. I agree. So how is being a Muslim in Minnesota now
different than it was when you first got here?
Manal Hashw 28:11
I think the new generation now are more knowledgeable about Islam and
about other religions and about accepting the others. And I think that
the gap that the big difference between when I come there was no
internet, no tools to find information about religions. So people were
confused about it. But now, I think the new generation everybody knows
about Muslims and Muslim history and so I think it's better now.
May Kamsheh 28:56
Okay, so how do you see the future of Islam Minnesota as in will it
keep growing you think?
Manal Hashw 29:04
Yeah, I think the community is getting together, they are more
connected they support each other. If in in their bad time or if
somebody needs help or for kids you know if things happen to the
parents or for any problem in the community, I think Muslims community
now help each other. Yeah, I can see and I noticed that there is a big
community now, it's more than before.
May Kamsheh 29:51
So you see the Muslim community future being expanded?
Manal Hashw 29:56
Yeah, it's expanding now. Because the third generation now is more
open and more connected with the with each other and with the
Americans, and so it's you can't miss it. I mean, it's there and it's
getting bigger.
May Kamsheh
30:22
Okay. Are you happy that you came here to the United States?
Manal Hashw 30:27
Yes, I am. Of course I am happy this is a land of opportunity. And we
came here in and we decided to be part of the country and become
Muslim Americans. And I think we, we did great, we are successful. We
have our kids are successful, they have good jobs. We are part of the
community. We volunteer, we help, we lived here, I think I lived here
more than I lived in my native country. So I'm so happy. I love people
here, I love the culture, I love being part of, of this country.
May Kamsheh 31:19
So it was a good decision overall?
Manal Hashw 31:21
Of course, I am Egyptian American, and I'm American citizen. And I
value my country here and I value Egypt too. And I think it's a good
decision. I'm, I'm happy to take this decision.
May Kamsheh 31:38
Is there anything else you'd like to say as your final words?
Manal Hashw 31:43
No, I'm so happy that there is about this project. I mean, people will
maybe get some idea about Muslim in, in America, and I think you
covered all the points. You did a great job.
May Kamsheh 32:00
Okay, thank you for your time and I really appreciate it.
Manal Hashw 32:04
You're welcome and good luck with your project. And thank you very
much.
May Kamsheh 32:09
Thank you. Hope to see you again soon.
Manal Hashw 32:11
Yep. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Yousra Mohamed 0:00
My name is Mr. Mohammed today's Sunday December 8. I am a historian
this project. Today we are here at Augsburg University and I'm here
with Mahamed Salad. Can you just introduce yourself real quick say
your name and when you were born?
mahamed salad 0:13
Uh, wassup guys... Show more
Yousra Mohamed 0:00
My name is Mr. Mohammed today's Sunday December 8. I am a historian
this project. Today we are here at Augsburg University and I'm here
with Mahamed Salad. Can you just introduce yourself real quick say
your name and when you were born?
mahamed salad 0:13
Uh, wassup guys, my name is Mohammed Salad. I was born on December 6
1999.
Yousra Mohamed 0:19
Um, what is your major and what-what year are you here at Augsburg?
mahamed salad 0:24
So I'm a second year here at Augsburg and my major is political
science with a minor in religion.
Yousra Mohamed 0:29
Okay. So your major, what made you go into that?
Yousra Mohamed 0:32
And what do you plan on doing with that major
mahamed salad 0:35
political science? I think, as we're going to find out later in the
interview, a majority of my life is considerably very political
considering that I'm a Muslim, an immigrant was like not born in this
country. So a lot of the things that sort of build my character is
very politically charged. And religion. I think, if you understand a
lot of people's religions, you also understand why they do things. So
Those two sort of things would kind of help me shape how I want to go
on with my life. I don't really think my degrees necessarily going to
dictate what sort of job I get into. But I do hope to like go into the
UN and help people as much as I can as well.
Yousra Mohamed
so
1:15
Yousra Mohamed 1:17
How has your experience been? Since you're- Are you a first generation
student?
mahamed salad 1:23
Yeah. So yeah, my both my parents didn't graduate from high school. So
I'm on the first one doing it.
Yousra Mohamed 1:30
Okay, so how has your experience at Augsburg been since you're the
first generation college student?
mahamed salad 1:34
Um, so my experience with Augsburg started before I was actually a
student at Augsburg, so I live just like I grew up just down the
street from Ausburg in the cedar side community. And I would visit
Ausburg a lot. It was sort of the- sort of like it was sort of the
hallmark of success for us, like, you came to Augsburg, you kind of
like as quote unquote, made it out the hood and things like that. So
we would come down here on school visits, field trips, we would do
workshops with some of the students and professors, we played a lot of
our basketball and football tournaments on the field or inside the
gym. So I had a really good connection with Augsburg before I came
here. Um, throughout high school, I was recruited by the cross country
team here. So and I liked the classes and I like the students, not the
students (haha), I liked some of the students. I knew them before. But
I liked the faculty here very, very much. And I liked the environment
here a lot. So I wanted to come here because of that.
Yousra Mohamed 2:30
Okay, so you said you ran track. So do you currently still play track?
Or run track?
mahamed salad 2:35
Yeah, I still run track. I no longer r un cross country because of
like a lot of work confliction and things like that, but I still run
track and enjoy it very much and I'm excited for the season start.
Yousra Mohamed 2:46
Oh, what- are you like involved in any other sports here at Augsburg?
mahamed salad 2:50
Um, no, I did play a lot of sports in high school. I played
basketball, football, and I ran cross country and track as well.
Yousra Mohamed 2:58
So um, moving on. So, where were you born? And can you explain how
your life was growing up?
Yousra Mohamed 3:05
Or just your family life in general?
mahamed salad 3:08
Um, so I think what I often tell people is like the first five years
of my life are probably more complicated than most people's. So I was
born in Ethiopia, Addis Ababa, which is a neighboring country, the
capital city of the neighboring country that I'm ethnically from,
which is Somalia. So I'm ethnically a Somali but I was born in
Ethiopia. And the reasoning behind that is both my parents fled to
Ethiopia because of the Civil War and a lot of the things happening in
Somalia and the distress that was happening. So as I grew up in
Ethiopia, I also traveled so I traveled to South Sudan, what is
currently South Sudan. As a very young kid, I traveled around Ethiopia
and I traveled back to Somalia and the reason I traveled back to my is
because my father came back (to America) in 2000. So I was born in
'99. My father came back to the US in 2000. And, and to 2003, my
mother was awarded, like a visa or like a stay in the US. So she
didn't have no choice but to leave me. So I was flown out to Somalia
to stay with my family, my extended family there. So my mother's
parents. And that's like the very first sort of memories I have of
like the nomadic life in Somalia and just like following sheep and
camel and other cattle around and things like that. And then
eventually what happened was, I was finally awarded citizenship
because my parents figuring out their documents in the US, I was
awarded citizenship in America. And there was really nobody to bring
me here. So what my parents did was they found somebody that was on
the flight to the United States. And they just told me to tag along
with that person, they gave me a briefcase that had all my information
in it and a letter that sort of described like, where I was going,
where I came from, who I was with and all those things just in case I
got lost and
Yousra Mohamed 4:56
Did you know English at this time?
mahamed salad 4:58
I knew a little bit like how to say 'How are you', 'Howr'e you
doing?' 'I want to go here' 'Where's the bathroom', but I wasn't very
fluent in it and and the majority of it was from like cartoons that I
watched TV, but I didn't know very much English. And when I got to the
airport in New York the JFK Airport, my parents just picked me up from
there. And then we stayed in New York for about six months. And then
we we settled in the cedar-riverside neighborhood and we've been there
for the past 16-17 years.
Yousra Mohamed 5:26
okay, so how would you explain your life growing up like, from then
until now?
mahamed salad 5:31
So from about when I was five until now, I would say in the beginning
of it, it was it was difficult in the sense that for anybody that
really didn't speak the languages, it's just coming up in a to a new
environment. I remember the very first day that I came to Minnesota
like it was snowing and it's just everything different happened in one
day. It was snowing, it was cold. There was football on TV. I didn't
know what any of that was, but I was expected to just catch up. You
know, like most, most people when they come to America, they're isn't
really like a period where people allow you and explain things just
like you got to understand or you get left behind. And the one thing
that I do remember is my mom, she gave me rice, and rice is like a
staple food around the world. So I knew what rice was. But when she
gave me the rice, she put ranch on my rice. And I didn't know a ranch
was I thought she was putting milk on my rice, so that kind of
frustrated me. And yeah, so there's a lot of those dietary things and
also the language barrier. I remember going to school and not really
understanding what anybody was saying to me. A lot teachers were
frustrated with me because they thought like, I wasn't listening or
things like that. Um, but as I grew older, I was- realized that
athletics and sports really kept me out of trouble. I really grew up
in a neighborhood that like is very beautiful. I think 90% of it is
beautiful. I think people overlook how beautiful and how vibrant and
how, how much of a cultural hub the cedar-riverside neighborhood is.
And they really just focus on like the gun violence and the drugs and
the different things that happened in any impoverished neighborhood,
but I had a special surprising amount of freedom for a kid growing up
there, both of my parents worked. So my dad left at 10, my mom left
around that time as well. And as long as I got back home before them,
I could really pretty much do whatever I wanted. But majority of it is
just like getting in trouble and just running around having a good
time and playing sports and learning lessons as you go as well. And it
was beautiful because I was a part of this really big community of a
bunch of kids that are around the same age that I'm still really good
friends with. And we all just kind of took care of each other, hang
around with each other and like you walk into a restaurant in the
cedar-riverside neighborhood and people know your parents like they
give you free food. You go to a mosque and you pray alongside like
your parents friends. So it's like you're being babysitted outside
with as much freedom as you want. So I would say like it was probably
one of the best childhoods anybody could have.
Yousra Mohamed 7:50
So, how is like, you're, like you- so you're Muslim correct?
mahamed salad
mhmm
7:56
Yousra Mohamed 7:56
Yeah. So um, how would you describe how close you were to God when you
were younger to now?
mahamed salad 8:06
I think I think that's the one thing that I would want it really not
to change, like, the perfect answer would be like, Oh, I was really
connected with God as a young kid. I'm still really super connected
with God right now. But what I realized is when I was a child, my life
wasn't very difficult and it was easy to be connected with God right?
Cuz I really didn't have a lot of hard times, a lot of shortcomings. I
didn't really question God, right. So I remember as a kid, I was very
religious. I was very like, and it wasn't really a thing of like, my
parents forced me to do it because they weren't really there.
Yousra Mohamed
yeah
8:43
mahamed salad 8:43
Like I was at the mosque I wore, I loved to wear like qamis' (throbe)
And coofeeds (hat) and all the religious clothing. I love to read the
Quran, and a lot of it was because I had this sort of attachment to
it. And the one thing that I really love to do was just like to help
people and I think I still had that characteristics. And it just it's
just like, kind of built. It really just gave me something to do
right. But as I got older you begin to start like dealing with things
you have hardships- you. I think one of the biggest things was like
losing a friend to gun violence. Which is like when somebody gets
sick, it's a process right? The person gets sick, you take them to the
hospital, you pray for them, you there's a chance that they might do
well like in, like life gives you time to grieve, even though they're
still alive, and you know, they're going to eventually die. Like it
gives you time to grieve. But when somebody like dies from gun
violence, it's a very sudden and abrupt thing. So that really made me
question my faith, right? And you start to question God, like, why did
they- Why do they have to die? Why not me? Like what makes me
different, all those things. So I think the at the base level when I
was younger, like it was really easy, and now as I get older, it gets
harder and harder, but it builds character, and it builds that
connection with God because the more hardship you go through, the more
faith you have in God, once you get through it, you start to have
those like, really, really like beautiful feelings of like, damn. You
know, God got me through this. And I think at the practice level, as a
kid, I would just pray because like, A there wasn't really feeling to
it. I think a lot of Muslim kids can attest to that we prayed because
our parents forced us to prayer told us to pray. We really didn't know
what we were saying, at least for me personally, as I got older and
went through dugsi or Sunday school, you know, I learned what I was
saying. And I learned what Allahu Akbar means, which is God is great.
And the more you learn about all these things, and you The more you
learn what you're actually saying in prayer, the more you feel it, and
like the more the more keen you are to actually doing it. So I think
that the base of my religion changed throughout my childhood. It was
It started with its innocence. And it's easy to it's difficult. But
the practice of it got harder because, like, the difficulty of it of
life just happening and things just happened to you. But the really
nuanced things was really beautiful because I got to learn a lot. I
got to learn the meaning of the Quran, which is one of the most
studied books in the universe. You know, I got to learn why islam
affects so much people in the world, I got to learn all those things
and just build that connection with people. Have faith for sure.
Yousra Mohamed 11:19
Yeah. Okay, so what would you say your cultural like, what's your
cultural background? So Somali?
Unknown Speaker 11:28
I would say yeah, ethnically im very Somali
Yousra Mohamed 11:30
so like, what's ,i dont know how to word this
Yousra Mohamed 11:36
like at home? Like what are you what's like since your, like you're
born Ethiopia. You're Somali. You're also like, black. So like, at
home what is like the most highlighted culture.
mahamed salad 11:52
Um, I think in my house. It's like a second clash of cultures right
and a clash of languages and Thankfully, like, we have one religion
that we all just agree on, but I remember a majority of my, of my
childhood was just arguing with my parents trying to convince them and
try to culture them, try to help them understand who I was. And I
think a lot of somalis can attest to the fact that like, somalinimoo
and like being Somalian, that nationalism is really like, glued into
us and viewed into us. And if you try to challenge that, like, your
parents get scared, right, because first they lost their country, and
now like, theyr'e terrified of like losing their tradition, because
the next generation carries on the tradition, right? So I think that
three different sort of the two different identities that I have is my
Somali identity, and my African American or like my black identity,
right?
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah,
12:49
mahamed salad 12:49
even though Somalis are definitely black. Like they have different
cultures and they have different things that they do and the one like
the one memory that I have for my soul, my identity is my dad is like
fluent in English, and so is my mom but when we come home, wewhenever we try to speak with them in English like they would act like
they wouldn't know what we were saying. So it was this idea of like,
language is the key to culture if you understand your language it's
much easier to learn your culture right but if you don't know the
Somali language it's really hard to learn your culture. So they kind
of- they kind of like push that into us like "learn your language,
learn your language, learn your language" and growing up- growing up
around like elders and like grandmothers and uncles and aunts and in
the neighborhood that I lived in which is like the largest Somali
population outside of Somalia you walk around all day speaking Somali
like you can- you can survive in Cedar Riverside without speaking any
other language person like the store owners, the doctors. There's
lawyers, there's bank tellers that all speak Somali. So that language
I think is the biggest part of my Somali identity. What I would say is
the biggest part of my like, African American black identity is hip
hop and rap music for sure. I think I just fell in love with it
because I walked around every day. And like I saw these things, I saw
the drugs I saw the gun violence, but I also saw like, this sort of
hunger to be rich a and this hunger to be successful that like Jay Z
and NAS, and Drake and all these people talked about of like, I want
to make it here and I want to do that, right. Like Drake says, like, I
like when money makes a difference, but doesn't make you different,
like things like that. But I didn't really see that reflected in my
Somali culture, like in the Somali culture, they really like connected
back home, right? They're all working to get back home theyr'e al;
making money to get back home. And within hip hop culture. I saw a way
for me to be here. And a way for me to have an identity here in the
US. And the second thing that's the biggest part of my, like, the
American culture that I have is football. I think every Sunday, I
don't think in my house we've ever missed a football game on Sundays.
Unless we're not at home. Thanksgiving, we would just like huddle up
around the TV and just watch other folks Games. All of my older
cousins and uncles played football in high school in college, I played
football in high school. Like, if you walked around a lot of the
Somali neighborhoods, like McKnight and Franklin and East Philips and
all these other places, basketball was a central thing or soccer. But
I think in my neighborhood, it was football, like just running around
shirtless in the rain was like a leather ball, like 100 other people
chasing you. I think this is a very American thing, but it's like
something that anybody can cling to and claim as their own as well.
Yousra Mohamed 15:32
And you just said like "going back home going back home", have you
gone back, to your homeland, to your home country, ever since you came
back to America?
mahamed salad 15:43
Yes. I never went back to Somalia specifically or Ethiopia, where I
was born, but this summer I had the pleasure. So my entire family I
have six younger siblings. And then it's me, my mom and my dad. So
there's nine of us but My mom and my six younger siblings, because of
like how our community is right now, all the things we're dealing
with, went back to Kenya, and they're staying there. They have like
house and they go to school. They're living there. They've been there
for about a year now. And I had the pleasure of going there and
visiting them. So I really didn't visit Somalia. But the one thing
that I didn't notice when I went back to Kenya is like how different I
am and how American I am compared to like, because like we both we
look so similar, right Africans and African Americans like we look
identical, and the only thing that separates the kids that that are
growing up right now in Somalia and me is the 15 years that I've spent
in America, everything else is identical. We have the same name, we
have the same, like some of us are even like cousins, right or even
siblings. But when I went there, I noticed that like it's very
different. The culture is very different. The way that they talk or
address one another is very different. The gender roles are very
different. So that kind of just was, was a culture shock for me for
sure.
Yousra Mohamed 17:05
Um, so like, this is just like a fun little questions like out of your
out of like, all the identities that you like have what's your
favorite like home cooked meal?
mahamed salad 17:18
All the identities that I have, um, I think a lot of my mom does a
really good job. She's like she cooks a lot. She loves to cook she
does a really good job of like, fusing traditional Somali meals with
like some American flavor.
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah.
17:34
mahamed salad 17:35
Like she would cook Somali rice like with all the spices and then she
would like make french fries cut up the french fries and put it in
there something like that. The one thing that I do remember, she would
do is actually take Malawaax, which is like, I think what I always
told people was the French stole it from from East Africa,
Yousra Mohamed
or like
17:53
mahamed salad 17:53
But it is crepes?
Yousra Mohamed 17:54
It's kind of like the East African pancake.
mahamed salad
Yeah.
Yousra Mohamed
superthin
17:59
17:59
mahamed salad 18:00
Its super thin and sweet and its really good. And like it's very like
popularized by like Europeans and the French and the Italians but they
really just took that, I would I think because we make it a lot
better, but she- she used to take that and then like put like eggs
with it and bacon and like add that you know that because we didn't
really know turkey bacon in East Africa, but she would add that flavor
and like I remember like always arguing my mom, like "hoyoo is it
everyday we're eating rice and pasta like can we eat something else".
So like definitely like those cuisines of like, just a lot of
breakfast and like the eggs and the bacon and turkey bacon and the
malawaax and then she cooked a lot of burgers, tacos, she loved making
tacos so so just fusing because somali- somali food has a lot of like
spices like garlic and like really rich flavors, so just fusing all of
that was like the hallmark foods of the US.
Yousra Mohamed 18:58
Kind of shifting over,
Yousra Mohamed 19:00
So, have you ever had difficulty applying for jobs? Or like even
applying for school? Due to being Muslim, Somali, African American?
mahamed salad 19:14
Um, I would say yes. Like it isn't. It's never really a thing, a lot
of people in Muslim people know this is was not very outward. It's not
like in your face, especially in Minnesota. Minnesota has like a, you
know, they have this like Minnesota nice sort of thing. But it's also
like very passive aggressive, right. So definitely like with schools,
my eighth grade year, I was doing very well in school, and I was
running track and cross country and like, I flew out to Florida to
participate in the Junior Olympics. And, you know, there's a lot of
schools sort of like wanting to recruit me. And one of the schools
that I wanted to go to a Dee'la Salee And it was this whole, this
whole sort of thing of like, oh, Like this is like a Christian school,
are you going to feel comfortable here. They would ask you like
questions like
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah
20:06
mahamed salad 20:06
that to kind of make you feel uncomfortable and iffy about going to
the school
Yousra Mohamed 20:09
like second guess yourself?
mahamed salad 20:10
Second guess yourself and things like that. I think that's the first
sort of experience that I had. Because like I grew up in the cedarriverside neighborhood I didn't really have exposure, like I went to
school in the cedar-riverside community school, so I didn't have
exposure to the outside world. But once I got to the outside world,
like it kind of really hits you, like you kind of have that
understanding of like, wow, I'm different and people are gonna treat
me different. Like My name is Mahamed. So that's like a red flag right
away. Like people are going to just think, your- like, you know, a
terrorist, all those things, you're doing this you're doing that your
flight risk all of that. So the discrimination and and all that still
exists here in Minnesota is very, it's extremely passive aggressive,
like, they ask you a lot of questions like, are you sure do you feel
comfortable you know, we would love to like, bring you, - one of the
things that I see from a lot of jobs is like, "we would love to bring
you on, But you know, we don't think you really qualify for this job."
And then, like, you see that you have more than enough qualifications,
like it's for something very simple like, like a store retailer, like
a gas station operator, like something that doesn't really need a lot
of qualifications. But they would say a lot of things like that. And
there's just, there's just a lot of things that come with it. And then
to add on top of that, like alhamdulilah, I'm not really like
outwardly, like, if you didn't know who I was, and if I didn't tell
you, it's very difficult for you to tell that I'm a Muslim. Like a lot
of the women in my life deal with that way more. Because they, they
have that courage to wear the hijab and to go out every day and to
like to be who they are. I remember my mom, like her trying to get her
GED like while she was pregnant was very difficult for her to get into
a lot of GED programs. They would tell her things like like, "are you
capable of doing this?" "You know, we know you have a lot of kids and
a lot of things on your plate." They would say things like that to try
to like get under her skin and convince her not to- not to do it. So
yeah, I think for me that and also like being a black male, a lot of
people see that as like threatening and like they don't really feel
comfortable around you and they're like oh you know, like there's that
like angry black male sort of stereotype but being a Muslim if you
don't know really know my name, then it's it's really difficult. So
shout out to all the women out there with the hijabs doing their
thing, Mashallah.
Yousra Mohamed 22:34
So, if you're comfortable, could you tell a story about like, anytime
you like, under, like you've gone through discrimination. Or like a
stereotype, like somebody automatically had a stereotype about you
that kind of like made you who you are today or like, motivated you to
become a better humanbeing or a better you after?
mahamed salad 22:58
Um, you know, like I said before, my majority of my life and who I am
is politically charged, like, the very basis of me coming into this
country is this whole whole sort of battle of like I was born in
Ethiopia. So I'm not a Somali citizen like the Somali government not
wanting to give me a citizenship because I'm not, quote unquote,
ethnically or not my nationality isn't necessarily Somali. So it's
always been political for me. And I think for some people, they would
look at that and it would anger them and it would kind of just make
them shun away politics and not want to deal with it because it made
their life so difficult. But for me, it kind of made me interested in
it. Like I would walk into rooms and, like walk into conversations and
just try to figure out like, why people do what they do. And like,
what politics has to do with that. Um, I feel like the very first
experience that I had with that, I would say like in the cedarriverside neighborhood, there's always like, there's always been like
this, these two sides of like, okay, it's it's so beautiful and it's
so vibrant but with every community they have their- their hard times
and their shortcomings. So, there's this day where we had, - and it's
very interesting because this is this is one of the programs around
the nation is called up the PAL. program is the police athletic
League, right? And what they basically do is they bring in cops from
whatever city like they do this in California boss, Boston,
Massachusetts, here in Minnesota,
Yousra Mohamed 24:26
kind of like urban setting.
mahamed salad 24:27
Yeah, urban settings, like in Houston and what they do is like they
they bring in the cops from the city like Minneapolis police
department and they start like an athletic league and then the cops
are the sort of coaches and the referees and it's just supposed to
like sort of build this relationship with kids. Which is like if you
look at it's very innocent thing, but there's a lot of like
surveillance and undermining things that go with it. Especially like
if you're a Muslim kid. So we're, we just won the championship, right
which is one of the PAL athletic championship, and were in one of the
community rooms celebrating and just having a good time. And there's
always like, there's always been a side of violence within my
community. So like other gun violence or fights or things like that.
And there's like a fight in the corner of like one of the soccer
fields, and I'm standing outside, so it's on the other corner, and I'm
standing on the street side. And so obviously, somebody calls the cops
because it's turning into a sort of a riot. And once the cops arrive
on the scene, they- so I'm standing next to like the street, Street
and I'm nowhere near where the riot is, I have nothing to do with it.
I'm not fighting anybody. I'm just watching. They come up from behind
me and like tackle me and I at the time, I'm like, 12/13 years old,
tackle me like they try to restrain me. And if you keep in mind if
you're like a human being and somebody grabs you from the back, you
can really see who it is and if you're watching people fighting
you're, you're automatically assume okay, somebody's trying to come
from me, right? I'm not.
Yousra Mohamed 26:05
Its like a fight or flight moment.
mahamed salad 26:06
Yeah, it's like a fight or flight moment, you're not safe in
situation. And like, they kept trying to tell me like, "calm
like "Stop, stop struggling" "stop restraining" and they hit
remember like one of them like trying to move their knee and
the
down"
me. I
hit me
like in the eye. I got hit in like the back of the head. And its just
like, like there's a lot more to it. But it's like one of those
moments that's very traumatic for somebody and like to deal with that
as a 12/13 year old kid because you're a black youth in America. And
because you- you live in this community. So like, as I grew up,
though, what it did is like it made me want to speak out. It made me
want to go to events and hearing, senate hearings and speak to like,
federal, federal politicians and even local politicians like the
governor and the mayor and constantly bring that message like, first
of all, the cedar-riverside neighborhood. Is it what you think it is
and the reason that the cops did that is Because they're trained to
think cedar equals violence, right? So you come into cedar, everybody
in there is automatically hostile and violent. And because of that,
that's why they treated me the way they treated me. And to add on to
that, I'm Muslim, and I'm black. Right? So what it did is like it kind
of shaped how I carry myself, and like how I conduct myself but at the
same time, it does have that like, sort of, like, you try to be humble
and you try to be like the nice guy and you try to be respectful. But
in the back of your head, you had that charm of like, there's if I get
pulled over like this is there's no difference between this cop that's
pulling me over and the cop that beat my ass when I was 12/13 years
old, excuse my language, right? So like, it builds that like,
generation of violence and trauma and then my kids hopefully don't
have to deal with that. But it just keeps going on and on and on and
on. So hopefully what I want to do is to break that right. So as I got
older, I started to think like, Okay, why did the cops do what they
do? Why do they do that? Why did they treat me like that and it began
with trying to understand who I am right as a person like being one
with your identity as a Muslim and holding on to that and like not
hiding it not telling people like for example, running around telling
people your not muslim right. And then being one with my blackness and
like not running away from that a lot of Somali people run away from
them, and they say, I'm not black, i'm Somali, you know. Trying to
like hide from that injustice and that balance. And it honestly
doesn't really do much for you. If just like the kid I was, if you're
facing the other direction, you're just another black and they're not
going to ask you some are not. So majority of that just shaped my life
as I was- I don't like the word activist. Yeah, but as an activistbecause that word has been coined by social media and everybody like
wants to be an activist now but just as an activist and somebody that
you know, constantly advocates for my community to ensure that like
the next generation of my younger siblings, like I have three younger
brothers and three younger sisters like they don't- hopefully, they
don't have to do with that. So just yeah, just like how I carry myself
in the way, the way that I do my I do things and do my business.
Yousra Mohamed 27:01
Thank you for sharing that story. So, um, if you were to like have it
written, what would you like, write down your identity as? If you're
applying for a job or anything.
mahamed salad 29:26
if I was applying for a job my identity so like it doesn't, that's a
tough one. I would I would say like, definitely just like as a black
man. Yeah, so it's like a black Muslim American. Like just simple as
that. Um not, I don't think- I think complicating identity just like,
it's not really necessary. Like, I'm a black Muslim man. You don't
need to understand what that is.
mahamed salad 29:52
you know, you just need to respect me as a human being. You don't need
respect me because I'm a black muslim man. You don't respect me
because I'm Somali. Just do it because I'm a human being. I'm a black
Muslim man, because that's the first thing that I identify with.
That's the closest thing that like, if I think of Mahamed, I think of
a black man in america that's just going through life. And he's he's
trying to do it through the avenue of Islam right to carry islam with
him, throughout it all. So, yeah, its like, the best way I can
describe it is like, in one of the pieces that i write, and, like I
try to write as much poetry as I can. But I say "I'm a conflicted
complex color, not a description. I'm not a description.- I'm not a
description of a complexion, but a conflicted complex color." So when
people call you black, it's black as a description of a complexion,
the skin color, right?
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah,
29:52
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah,
30:40
mahamed salad 30:41
but we're not just the skin color. We're conflicted, complex color. So
we're just were whole identity. We're a group of people that
Yousra Mohamed 30:47
i like that, yeah
mahamed salad 30:47
move and change and nobody has to understand that right? Where we can
be whoever we want to be whenever we want to be because we have that
luxury as human beings. So I would just say a black, black, Muslim.
Yousra Mohamed 31:02
So how would you describe your education starting from elementary to
high school? And like every, I have you like traveled around?
mahamed salad 31:15
Yeah, um, so I think I was like from kindergarten to fourth graders
babysitting. Just babysitting Mahamed. I got in trouble a lot I got
moved around schools a lot got suspended, expelled. It's just I don't
know, a part of it is that whole like black kid identity of like, "Oh,
yeah, he just here to make trouble" like not really trying to
understand the kid just put it throwing them in that pool of like, the
little rascal you know, but a lot of it is also just like me being a
kid with ADHD that like nobody wants to listen to. So just like me
just kind of fighting back and like being "grr" about everything, you
know. So probably from fourth grade, like I had had a lot of good
experiences and I learned a lot but a lot of it was being in the
principal's office and, but that was good for me because it kind of
calmed me down and helped me make shape that identity of like, "Okay,
this is what education is". And like, I'm glad I went through that
from kindergarten through fourth grade. I didn't do that, like from
freshman year to senior year, because it would, it would end up a lot
different. You know, I think my best years of education were from
fifth grade to eighth grade. And the reason I say that is because I
went to the cedar-riverside community school, and I had the same
teachers from fifth grade to eighth grade. So I really built a
relationship with them. And I would say, these are the best teachers
I've ever had in my life from kindergarten to like right now, even as
a college student, so they did a really good job of like, bringing the
outside world in. Like they took us on a lot of field trips, because
our school was like 200 kids, we didn't have a lot of kids in our
school in total. My graduating eighth grade class was like 11 or 12
kids, so it's very small school. So they took us on a lot of
fieldtrips. And we were outside a lot, and we were like very active
with our hands, like our science class, which is very, is very like
outside, it wasn't really textbook in, like understanding definitions,
it was really like, okay, kids, we're going to go outside and like,
like, we went on top of one of the buildings got access to like a 39
story building so we could see the entire city. And like we learned
geography for like, a whole semester on top of a roof. Like, it's
things like that, you know, and like going outside and picking leaves.
Forr my social studies class, we did current events, we didn't do
history. We learned a lot about history, but like, it wasn't all day,
like, here's a bunch of like, white people that you don't relate to,
that have like nothing to do with you like your identity, like people
like Christopher Columbus and like, like Vespucci Buchi and like,
they're very like, very, like, astounding people, as you would say,
like, yeah, Christopher Columbus killed a lot of indigenous people,
but like, they did a lot of things. But it wasn't really any of that.
It was Okay, let's let's learn about Somali history and East African
history. Let's learn about African American History, things that, that
connect to identity. And thana lot of current events. So I think I
learned more in sixth through eighth grade than I have my entire life.
Yousra Mohamed 34:15
We're teachers, those of color?
mahamed salad
34:18
Umm surprisingly, I didn't have any teachers of color.
Yousra Mohamed
Oh,
34:21
mahamed salad 34:21
zero. But I think they, they, they knew that we were a bunch of Somali
youth that needed teachers of color, right. And other things that come
with having a teacher of color is a lot of those things that I've said
where they teach you about African American, they're willing to teach
you about African American History, they're willing to like- because
if you have a white teacher, they don't, they wouldn't really feel
comfortable talking about like white supremacy, and what white
supremacy is, but these teachers were. So like, I'm a seventh grader
learning about like, white supremacy in America, like a lot, seventh
graders didn't get that opportunity. So I really owe them a lot for
sure.
Yousra Mohamed 35:01
That's amazing. So like, what high school did you go to?
mahamed salad 35:04
I went to Minneapolis, South.
Yousra Mohamed 35:07
South High School.
mahamed salad
Yes.
35:07
Yousra Mohamed 35:08
Did you go there off four years.
mahamed salad 35:09
I went there for three years. My first year of high school, I went to
Teza, as a lot of people call or step Academy.
Yousra Mohamed 35:17
And then, South has a lot of, you know, it's super diverse,
mahamed salad 35:23
extremely diversed
Yousra Mohamed 35:24
Somalis. African Americans,
mahamed salad 35:26
Latinos a lot of asians
both
35:29
native americans
Yousra Mohamed 35:30
yeah. So, um, how would you describe your high school years?
mahamed salad 35:34
Um, I think high schools, a lot of finding myself. It was. It was the
very first time I was in a big school. So it was kind of overwhelming.
Like, I went from having the 10-10 people in my eighth grade
graduating class to like, I think we had 700 or 800 kids in my senior
year, like graduating.
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah.
35:53
mahamed salad 35:54
So it was like a big jump. But it was it was great. It was amazing. I
played a lot of sports. So because I play a lot of sports, like, I had
that connection with a lot of people in the building, and they watch
you every Friday playing football, or, you know, every Saturday at
track meets and things like that. So I think that's, that's one of the
best things that I did is like building an identity and building that
sort of character that I have, now. A lot of that I did that through
high school.
mahamed salad 36:24
So, and the other thing that I was veryprivileged to have is like
that, like you said, that diversity in my school. So we had so many
different student groups. I was the president of the MSA at my school
and what we were, what we did was, we like, we taught classes right
about Islam, and it was this was around the time when Trump was being
elected president. So a lot of people were uneasy about, like, talking
about Islamophobia, but our school like it took a head on right like
we had posters up around the school, and it wasn't it was very, very
polarized. Right so the schools that support that had a majority of
students and kids and parents, whatever that supported Trump, it was
like Trump, Trump, Trump Trump, right? And the schools that were very
liberal It was like, like F trump, f Trump, F trump, F trump and if
you have those two extremes there isn't really room for conversation
and growth it's just a whole bunch of anger right? What our school did
is they did a really good job of like being able to be like, you know
what, believe what you want to believe and understand what you want to
understand and but like we have the space and you can come into this
space and learn about indigenous rights. You could come into space and
learn about Islam and what Islam actually is not what Trump thinks it
is right? You can come into this space and talk to kids that are like
DACA recipients and have dealt with problems at the border and have
been through that you can - if you voted for Trump it's fine, but you
can come talk to these people and have an understanding of like, okay,
now you get why voting for a man like this could affect someone like
this, it sort of personalizes it and personalizes it. It isn't sort of
this abstract thing that- that's in the air, and if you make things
abstract, it makes people very, it makes it very easy to make
decisions. You know, if it doesn't, if it doesn't directly affect you,
and if it isn't like a thing you can see, hear or smell like, why does
it really matter? It's just a guy that I'm voting for. Right. So that
was one of the biggest things that we did. Another experience that I
had was this student group that that the student groups called SUSOSH
which was stand up, speak out South High. And it was like a civil
rights like sort of activist group. We organized walkouts with like
all the Minneapolis Public Schools like for like Jamal Clark,
Philando Castile, you know, a lot of these like, because of like the
gun violence and because of the police brutality, we we did that and
we organized one of the biggest marches, like in the nation, for gun
violence and like to be a part of something like that is is really
beautiful. And I think what we did in SUSOSH affected a lot of the
white students in the like, the student that had that privilege that
were driving in from the suburbs to come to South High. It kind of
opened their eyes, the world and like made them, you know, think about
it, but like, wow, you know, this affects, like, our school is 5000
Kids 2000 of them kids that I played basketball with, who would have
fun with just walked out? Because they feel that passionate about it.
Let me learn about it, you know. And another thing that we did, which
I think every school in the United States, including university should
do is racial justice day.
mahamed salad 39:27
And what racial justice day is, is basically it's, it's in Feb- no its
in March, and you prepare the entire year, all the student groups
prepare the entire year, they, they each prepare one workshop, and
they each bring in one person to lead a workshop, right? So what we
did was like we brought imaam's and like, notable people that are
Muslim for our MSA group, to come in and to lead a workshop. And
basically, all of the all of the teachers and the faculty became
Students and all the students became teachers. So they switch roles,
so that it isn't, it's not a thing of like, teachers are constantly
like telling kids what the world should be. We're also- we also have
that ability and that power to tell our stories as well. And a lot of
the students participated in the workshops as well. So just set the
entire day where you pick five workshops and you go into the class and
you learn about, you know, indigenous rights or like feminism and
like, why women should be empowered and like a lot of the guys that I
played football with didn't understand that like, women make so much
less money to men women have so much less rights, like one in three
women deal with, you know, sexual assault or harassment at least once
in their life. Like once you know, all those facts. It is in this
thing of like, yeah, you know, she's just being weird. You don't
really think like that you start to reconceptualize, like how you view
the world. So it was that was, I think, one of the most beautiful
experiences and because we, the students control that day, like we let
everybody else everybody out early. By 12, everybody was outside,
playing basketball, football, eating lunch, and then we just went
home. So I think high school, my high school years was a lot of fun.
And it was filled with a lot of like activism and a lot of education
and learning about myself and learning about the world as well.
Yousra Mohamed 41:16
Has there ever been a time in your life where you didn't a claim a
certain part of your identity? For example, like being Muslim being
black being Somali?
mahamed salad 41:28
Um, I think I just because of because of my entire life, I've been
told what to do.
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah,
41:33
Yousra Mohamed
Yeah,
41:33
mahamed salad 41:33
and I've been told what I am and what I should be. I had this and a
lot of times, it isn't good. Like it kind of like, like, like, it's
like a wall sometimes that I need to get through. But I had this sort
of personality of like, "F U" like, I'm gonna be whoever I want to be.
I'm gonna do what I want to do. Like, you can't tell me what to do and
its that sort of mentality of like, and it goes back to like that
trauma. All the things that we talked about earlier of like, I been
through all this stuff like, "Who are you to tell me what to do and
who are you to tell me?" Thankfully, I'm still very open minded with
my identity. It's very much like I'm going to be what I want to be.
But the one of the funny things that I used to so coming when I came
to America, the only- its not even a state but the only thing that I
knew was Washington DC. So when people ask me, where were you born, I
would say Washington DC. I didn't want people to know that I was born
in Addis Ababa, Ethiopia. They would make fun of me. They would call
me all these names, right? So literally until like third fourth grade,
I was like, I was born-, because the first day of school everybody
gets up. Hi, my name is Mohammed nine years old and you do the whole
thing.
mahamed salad 41:59
I was born in and all the kids see like Kansas like St. Paul, you
know, and I was like,
Yousra Mohamed 42:42
all these basic places.
mahamed salad
42:43
Yeah, all these- but they were all very normal like places, like
imagine like you everybody stands up they go Kansas, St. Paul,
Seattle, California, San Diego, Addis Ababa. Like everyones gonna be
like woah thats different.
Yousra Mohamed 42:54
And raise a question like wheres that.
mahamed salad 42:56
I used to just say Washington DC. But as I got older, like I kinda
just, you know, grew out of that for sure.
Yousra Mohamed 43:03
Okay, so moving forward, what are you currently involved in?
Yousra Mohamed 43:10
So right now I'm studying, I'm still in school, political science and
religion, like I talked about before, just in every class that I'm in
trying to learn as much as I can, im taking a world politics right
now, world politics class, and we're learning about like, the Muslims
in China and what's happening to them there. And it's very
interesting, and you learn all the like the insight thing and all the
little things. For example, there's a lot of Muslim countries there
are supporting China and what they're doing. So I think just learning
a lot about that so that when I graduate, I'm not, I'm not I'm not as
ignorant as I was before. And I'm also more willing to learn more and
more and more. I'm also a youth specialist at the community center
that I grew up in at the Brian Cole community center. So like, right
now I'm coaching like a rec team. I'm leading a college readiness
group called fans to take care how to code teaching kids how to use,
like recording equipment. So like if they want to make music if they
want to produce, if they want to, like explore all these avenues that
isn't necessarily go to school right away. We provide them with that.
So just giving back to my community as much as I can, but also
learning as much as I can about like community building and community
involvement so that when I do leave school, I'm very prepared. And I'm
also you know,
Yousra Mohamed 44:26
giving back to the community.
mahamed salad 44:27
Yep, yep, yep, exactly. And I'm also part of the NRP board, which is
like the community board in Cedar Riverside neighborhood,
Yousra Mohamed 44:36
what does NRP stand for?
mahamed salad 44:37
I actually have no idea.
Yousra Mohamed
OH
44:39
mahamed salad 44:40
I have no idea. It's like the neighborhood reallocated. We're changing
the name right now. We're building like a new website
Yousra Mohamed 44:45
So its in the process of?
mahamed salad 44:45
Yes, its in the process of like, because basically NRP was because of
like a lot of things that happened in the neighborhood, it kind of was
disband for like five years. And then last year, they elected a board
and they did all these things. So I'm the Secretary for the NRP board
and the youth chair. So what we're doing, we're doing a lot of things
we gave $10,000 to on the AAU team here, the cedar-riverside warriors,
for them to like, go out and travel the country. So go to like Kansas
and Kentucky and they went to Vegas last summer. And so for all these
kids growing up, where I grew up, dealing with the things that I had
dealed with, for me to give them that opportunity to like travel the
country and maybe even someday travel the world is more than
rewarding. So just doing things like that. We're also building another
program for girls to teach them like beauty and wellness and all those
things that they want to go into cosmetics and like doing hair and
open up their own shop. It gives them the opportunity to like, like be
their own person, not wait for other people. And we're also funding,
because girls don't only do hair and makeup and things like that, for
those of you don't know. We're also funding.
Yousra Mohamed
fun fact
45:48
mahamed salad 45:55
Yeah, we're also funding girls athletic groups. Just directly just
like only giving girls spaces because within our community there's
it's really difficult to give girls time because all the time is
allocated for the guys right? All the soccer teams and the basketball
teams are Guys Guys, guys, guys, guys, right? And if you go into any
open gym, its just filled with Somali boys and the girls are just like
cooped up in the house all day. So because like my sisters all played
sports, and I want to give them the girls in my community that
opportunity to like, come in, just be athletic and enjoy themselves.
We're trying to we're trying to do that as well.
Yousra Mohamed 46:31
Like breaking barriers.
mahamed salad
46:33
Yeah, for sure. breaking all those barriers.
Yousra Mohamed 46:36
Okay, um, do you believe that currently that you're fully content
with, like, how your faith is, like how good of a muslim you are?
mahamed salad 46:45
No, I don't think I'll ever be.
mahamed salad 46:50
I don't think I'll ever be content with who I am. Yeah. And I think
that's a good thing. Like one of the things that I always think about
like is, within our community, we do a lot checking in, right? So if
you ever go to your house, your mom asked me like, Are you done with
school yet? Or "when are you going to get married?" They ask you all
these questions. That's just like, a lot of Asian cultures are like
that, and African cultures are like that as well. And it's kind of
like constantly that checking, checking, checking, how are you doing
now? How are you doing now? How are you doing now? When are you going
to finally be successful, so that you can take care of us all, you
know. Within my family is definitely like that too. Because I'm the
oldest of seven and my dad is my dad's doing well, but he's not making
a million dollars. So like everybody from my cousins and everybody
back home is waiting for me to be successful so that I can take care
of all of them, you know, and I'm definitely willing to do that. But I
also understand that that takes time and isn't something that I should
rush. With the my deen is 100% like that to like as a Muslim,
submission allah (swt) la il la ha il la la, Like there's no god but
God, and Muhammad is His Messenger (saw). Like that, that never that's
never done. You'll never you'll never be perfect at that. You'll never
be 100% of that. But like I said, that pursuit of getting close to
ALLAH and that chase of trying to memorize and try to, like not only
memorize but learn the actual meanings of words like waduha meaning,
the beginning and the lights and that how that directly connects to
fajr prayer and new beginnings. And when you learn about all these
things, like it just it brings you closer to Allah and the closer and
closer and the closer you get, the better off you are. But it's also
beautiful to understand that like, you'll never get there. And that's
not a bad thing.
Yousra Mohamed
yeah
48:30
mahamed salad 48:31
Like it reminds me of Matthew McConaughey when he won his Oscar, like
he told the story of like, somebody asked him who his hero was. He
said, I don't know, let me get back to you and came back and the
person said, Did you figure out who's your hero? And he said, Yeah, I
did. It's me five years from now. And then five years later, that same
person came to him said, Hey, are you want your own hero yet? And he
said, No, I'm not even close. It's me five years from now. And then
the person came back 10 years later, he said, Hey, are you your own
hero yet? And its the story of like, he's his own hero because he
wants to be that person that he has in his head of like that provider
that that that good dorr that perfect Muslim. But the beauty of it is,
he knows he'll never get there. But on his journey there and his and
his progression to getting there, he builds so much character, so much
memory, so much relationships. And I guess that's the beauty of life
for sure.
Yousra Mohamed 49:23
So do you have any current goals on how to become a better Muslim or
how to keep doing good?
mahamed salad 49:33
Yeah, I think it's the little things. Islam is very, very, like, its a
way of life isn't really like a, I would say, for most people is
defined as a religion, but I see it as a way of life. It's the way you
conduct yourself, the way you talk, the way you act, how you walk,
everything is islam. So it's complete submission to ALLAH. It's the
little things, memorizing more Quran. I think when you memorize
something It becomes a part of you. And when the Quran is a part of
you, if you study the Quran, anybody that is Muslim or isn't Muslim,
knows that this is an outwardly thing. This is something that is
beyond all of us, from, you know, the development of the embryo being
in the Quran to the discovery of Iran to like, all these beautiful
things, that it's just like, beyond science and beyond all these
things, being in the Quran, and not only that, but answers to very
simple things like how to help other people how to, you know, figure
out disputes, why, why ALLAH or like, if you even believe in a higher
being, but why the world is divided up into so many countries and so
many different nations and so many different factions, but one has an
answer to all of that. So, by memorizing that, and also memorize the
meaning of that, I can always recall on that and hopefully that helps
me grow my life and services a big part of, of, of, you know, being a
Muslim, you know. Prophet Mohammed (saw) ,Islam is also a measure of
character and is also a measure of kindness, right? So just trying to
be as kind as I can to those that are less fortunate than me, younger
kids, people that are homeless, just going out of my way to help as
much people as I can. And one of the biggest goals that I have for
this year is to teach one person at least, or a couple people like how
to read the quran and to teach them Arabic so that they can read the
Quran for themselves. And you you reap a lot of that benefits as well
because if you teach somebody something, they can do that for the rest
of their lives and teach somebody else, and, you know, so there's
really nothing better than service.
Yousra Mohamed 51:33
Like an endless good deed.
mahamed salad 51:34
it's an endless good deed. Exactly. And teaching is is it rewarding
itself. So I have a lot of goals, but I think we always try to focus
on the bigger picture and these big things and these big goals like
build a mosque or donate a certain amount of money or all these things
as Muslims but I want to focus on the little things like five daily
prayers helping as much as I can teach somebody how to move.
Yousra Mohamed 51:58
Alright, so last question and you kind of highlighted on this in the
last question so um do you think that islsm shaped you into the person
you are today and how?
mahamed salad 52:11
definitely shaped me to the person I am today.
mahamed salad 52:16
my name being Mahamed and just learning about. That's the first that's
the first thing I learned. I didn't before I learned anything else but
that's the first like memory that I have of like, what my name is and
like why I was named Mahamed and like who Muhammad (saw). So he talked
about character he talked about, are you going to ever reach that sort
of like euphoria of character that euphoria of like deen and being
that perfect Muslim. And another thing that I constantl chase is
trying to be as much like Prophet Mohammed (saw). And that shaped my
character. I think the kindness and service for a lot of people like
it comes from their parents, their parents kind of tell them Be kind
be good you know my parents are really amazing people but like, they
weren't really there to be very honest. Now that I think about it
because they were constantly working and when they were there they did
an incredible job, but I had a lot of time to myself right. And that's
amazing because Prophet Muhammad (saw) had a lot of time to himself,
right. He never had very much friends. So a lot of people constantly
like look at character and they say comes from your environment. And
that's true in a sense it is either a byproduct of your environment,
you try not trying to be like your environment or you become your
environment right. But for some people is just this thing of like, you
constantly think about something and you constantly trying to manifest
something and you just create these goals in your head good or bad to
be very honest. Right? And you just live through them and for me as a
kid, I remember just really honestly sitting in a Masjid and thinking
about like, how, how beautiful was and how much destiny and katharkhathar of Allah has to do with the fact that I'm named Mahamed right?
mahamed salad 54:00
And I'm learning about this man that like that, that I remember one of
the stories he's carrying bags for this old lady that's blind. And
she's talking about Oh, did you hear about this prophet that came to
the came here and he's so terrible and he's this and he's that and he
doesn't put her bags down. He just keeps carrying them and carrying
them and he brings it to her house and he tells her, you have a nice
day and he leaves. That's his character. That's the person that he was
in. Yeah, you know, the world that we live in today character isn't
really measured anymore. People don't really care about how nice you
are. And if you are nice, they take you for granted or they use it
against you.
Yousra Mohamed
mhmm
54:00
Yousra Mohamed
overlooked
54:25
mahamed salad 54:34
Oh, yeah, exactly a lot of that too.
mahamed salad
So um,
54:36
mahamed salad 54:40
Islam I think is my character. I wouldn't I don't think I would be the
person I am today. If I didn't try to be as much like Prophet Muhammad
somebody or send them as possible. And if I didn't try to be like the
best Muslim that I can and it's a lot of things like I remember seeing
hadiths like of the prophet (saw) saying you know, an orphan and
whoever helps an orphan will go into heaven like my fingers and his
fingers were like touching, right? So it's little things like that,
that you remember from your childhood of you listening to lectures and
it's like stuck in the back of your head. So that you grow up thinking
that okay, i have to help this person and I have to help that
personal. So, every time I walk past a homeless person, is this sort
of like guilt of like, "Am I living up to whatever like allah destined
me to be right? Allah blessed me with this name. He blessed me with
this religion, like am I living up to it? And I know, I know that I
never will never be that perfect person. But who built that character
who I am today? And hopefully I continue to have that as well.
Yousra Mohamed 55:43
All right, thank you. And that's all for today. So this is Mahmaed
Salad again, and I had fun interviewing you. Thank you.
mahamed salad 55:53
You're welcome
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History Transcript
Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center)
Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student)
This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on
the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019.
Note: Bra... Show more
Oral History Transcript
Narrator: Karima Vargas Bushnell (Light Upon Light Sufi Center)
Interviewer: Chad Berryman (Augsburg University student)
This interview was conducted at the Light Upon Light Sufi Center in South Minneapolis on
the afternoon of Wednesday, April 10th, 2019.
Note: Bracketed statements in this transcript were added by the narrator during the
editing process with the intent of clarifying certain facts and references made during the
interview.
Chad Berryman 0:00
So, thanks for sitting down with me again.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:04
A pleasure.
Chad Berryman 0:05
Could you please introduce yourself with full name and date of birth?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:09
Yes. I am Karima Vargas Bushnell, born January 20th, 1953.
Chad Berryman 0:17
Thank you. And I guess just to start, could you tell us a little bit about your upbringing,
where you come from?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:25
Sure, that's kind of interesting. I was born in Reno, Nevada, and lived there till I was 20,
except for one year in boarding school in the LA area.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 0:37
My father was from a small town in Nevada, tiny little town you wouldn't have heard of. My
mother was from Washington, DC. So, like the main character and imaginary author in my
novel that I wrote--there's a new one coming out pretty soon--like this character I was
mistakenly raised as an East Coast intellectual in the heart of the Western desert. That
made things kind of strange.
Chad Berryman 1:01
Wow. How did you end up here, then, in Minneapolis?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:07
Oh, the short version is I had a relative here. And that's funny. That is the one question I
think I'd just like to leave there. It was kind of a--well, I won't say it was a mistake, but it
was a fluke. It worked out well.
Chad Berryman 1:24
Could you maybe then, rather than yourself, give me a little bit of a general history of Light
Upon Light and then how you came to be associated with Light Upon Light?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:37
Oh, sure. Actually, I don't mind at all talking about myself. Why I moved here just turns out
to be the one little odd thing--
Chad Berryman 1:47
Sure, that's alright.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:48
But I actually, I would love to just tell you, first that-- So, my father was an attorney in Reno,
and my father was, we're pretty sure, part-Native American. I didn't realize till I did a lot of
diversity projects. I was on the board, with Ghafar Lakanwal from Afghanistan, of the
Minnesota Cultural Diversity Center. I was on their advisory board for a few years. And I
was meeting with Native American people as well as others, and I noticed that all these
men here had the hairline and the ear that looked just like my father. They looked like his
brother or his cousin. I had never seen anybody with that before. I mean, straight black
hair, just combed straight back. And something about it just looked like my dad.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 2:31
"That looks like his brother!" "That looks like his cousin! That's weird." And I did find out
later. So, the name was Vargas. And I was an only, I was brought up as an only child. I was
always told that the heredity on his father's side was Spanish. I remember him saying,
“We're Spanish, we're Spanish!" Like that, you know. "Not Mexican. No Mexicans around
here, especially no Indians," you know, right? Well, it turns out the photograph that was
shown to me as my grandfather was not my grandfather, it was my grandmother's brother.
My older half-sister told me this at a certain point. The other picture, actually across the
hall, of the guy on the horse holding the calf, who didn't look like the same guy at all, was
my actual grandfather. And my grandfather was not John Dorsey Vargas, as I was told, he
was Juan Doroteo Vargas. Okay, and I have his Catholic baptismal certificate today. So this
is pretty neat.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 3:31
So, Dad apparently, his mother married somebody she was not supposed to marry
according to the mores of their community. And my dad had a really hard time growing up
and didn't want to talk or think about this in any way. He passed quite a few years ago. I
feel that he would be alright with [my talking about] it now. And I do talk about it now. My
mother, on the other hand, her father was Jewish. And he was not religious. They were
scientists, they didn't believe. She said one time that he believed in assimilation. That's
what they believed. The name was Berliner, and his father had come over from Germany, so
they missed that horror [by coming a generation earlier]. So I was, as my mom used to say,
"I could have a Christian-Jewish conference with myself in a phone booth." She was a
philosophy major at University of Nevada when she was bringing me up. So, I had an
interesting upbringing. I just somehow I wanted to share that with you.
Chad Berryman 4:17
Well, thank you. Absolutely.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:19
Yeah. There was that tangent. You were talking about . . . ? I go on tangents. There was one.
Chad Berryman 4:24
Yeah, of course. So then Light Upon Light-- how does that fit into your narrative?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 4:32
Well, that's comes quite late in the narrative. My husband, John Hakim Bushnell, and I,
we've been married 35 years. And we started this. I think we started it in, what, about
2010 or 2011? And we incorporated first as an LLC, and I kept telling him "No, that's not
what we want," you know. Do I mean LLC? Is that right? But, you know, like a business. I
mean, "No, John that's the wrong thing." So, then we redid it as a 501(c)(3), which is really
what we are, we're a nonprofit.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 5:04
But this was the culmination of a lifetime of study and doing different things. And this was a
place for these things to happen. So we started it.
Chad Berryman 5:15
So I think one thing that strikes a lot of people about Sufism, and particularly the
manifestations that seem to have most taken root in the US, is an interplay between the
particular and the universal, you know, the local and the global. And I was wondering, you
know, on the sign outside, it mentions, you know, that here, there's events and practices
from two different traditions. And I think it's a beautiful example of this. So, I was
wondering if you could speak to that dynamic a little bit with Light Upon Light. You just
mentioned you were in Istanbul, and, you know, that dynamic between the particular here,
but also the traditional particular and then the greater tradition?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:08
Oh, yes, yes. And we occupy a kind of a cultural borderland in a couple of different ways. To
understand about this, there's a thing you have to know about, and this is the American Sufi
phenomenon and Hazrat Inayat Khan. Have you ever--
Chad Berryman 6:24
I have.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:24
--come across his name? Okay. Well, yes. That's his picture, it's over there. The lovely,
lovely man with a beard.
Chad Berryman 6:29
I thought it looked familiar!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 6:30
Yeah, yeah. So, he came in--and dates are not my best thing, but approximately 1900 or
1910, he came to the West, and he was first in Europe and then he was in America. There's
a lovely story about him. He came as a musician. They were the Royal Musicians of
Hindustan or something, and it was himself and, I think, a brother and a cousin. Something
along those lines: that he and a couple of relatives, male relatives, came as musicians. And
they came from a house of very highly-honored musicians in India, and Hindu and Muslim
musicians mixed freely in this household and played together. And he was a lovely, you
know, universal person.
He came here and wrote back in horror to his teachers and said, "There's no Islam here,
you should send someone!" And they wrote him back--this is, you know, the version I heard
of this--wrote him back and they said, "Well, you're there." So he got stuck with the job of
trying to introduce Islam to the West. And again, I read in another place, and I could find
these citations somewhere for you with a little digging if it was necessary, but that he had
written or said somewhere that if he had tried to bring Islam in its full and regular and
ordinary form to the West, he said, "About six people would have listened to me in Europe
and America." So, what he did is he created a universalist version of Islam that was suitable
for Victorian westerners. And a couple of Sufi orders came from that. They're now known
as the Inayati orders. And there are basically three of them as far as I know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 8:13
I first got into Sufism, and then my husband did also through me, through something that's
called the Ruhaniat order. I think now it's Ruhaniat International. That is one of these
branches of the Hazrat Inayat Khan orders. And the funny thing about this, you'd run into--I
always kind of characterized it as "hippies and psychologists," at least that's how it felt to
me. So, I met up with this in 1976 in Spokane. I was involved in yoga, and not the physical
yoga, but more the philosophy and the practices and the breathing and some of these
different things, meditation, these things. My Swami Atmanishtananda Ruth Reynolds, who
was an amazing woman, passed many years ago, had a little place called the Vedanta Yoga
Center in Spokane.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:03
And I was one of her devotees. She had about 15, and we were very close to her, and she
loved us. She wouldn't initiate me because she said I was too immature, and she was very
smart [not to initiate me then, because I was immature]. And I was about 23, 24 at the time.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 9:16
But one day, there was a friend named, at the time, Waduda Majeed. And she used to come
to our stuff, and we made friends. And she said, "Hey, you should come to this thing I'm
doing on Tuesday nights." I said, "Okay, what is it?" "Well, it's called Sufi Dancing." "What's
that?" Well, that made no sense to me. What is it? You know, I didn't mind, I was intrigued.
"Well, I can't really explain it, you have to come." So I came to this.
And this is the thing that is now called the Dances of Universal Peace. It's a form of spiritual
practice, a group spiritual practice in which simple circle dances--simple moves taken
actually from folk dance--you do these while reciting the Sacred Names and mantras and
holy words from all traditions, from traditions of the world, you know. World religions, but
also they brought in, you know, some from the Native Americans and different things. I
remember doing this one time with some actual Indians in the back of the room, giggling,
kind of like 'look at them!'" And my husband was not into the Indian Dances after that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:17
But this was something, and this has spread around the world now and gotten to be quite a
big thing. So these American Sufis in the Inayati orders, you'd meet people that had Arabic
names, and you would meet people who did dhikrullah, zikr, the remembrance of the Divine
through the repetition of La Illaha Illa Allah, or [other sacred phrases], you know, but they
did not consider themselves Muslims in any way. And most of them still don't. There are
about 12 that do in the one order. I was talking to a guy from it the other day.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 10:51
So, it was very odd, you'd meet your, I don't know, Farishta or Jamila or somebody, you
know, "Hi, I'm Jamila and I'm from California and I go to zikr once a week," and "Muslim?
No, what?" [They had Muslim names and did Muslim practices, but they didn't identify as
Muslims and had no interest or knowledge about it.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:08
It was a funny thing, a funny cultural phenomenon. So, I got in with this, I led these dances
for a number of years. I had also done--see, I'm a world religions person, I have been all my
life.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 11:24
I had an experience of God, sometime between three and five years old. And I wasn't raised
in a religious way really at all--with a couple of little minor exceptions--but in general, not.
But I had experiences of God. I learned about God from the inside, not the outside. Rather
than somebody telling me something, I had to like, "What is this thing that happened? And
what's that?"
And you know, and I even remember, this is a funny thing. My mom was driving me to
school--I think junior high. And so, you know, I was about 13. And I was trying to--I might
have been younger, it might have been to grade school, but I think it was to junior high-and I was trying to explain to her what I wanted to do, what I was interested in. And she
was this philosophy major, and she always encouraged me to think, and she always talked
to me and encouraged me to tell her my ideas. And we spent, I don't know, thousands of
hours of discussion. And I was an only, so I was her project, I was like her science project.
But I was trying to explain to her what it was I was interested in and what I wanted and
what I wanted to do with my life. And I remember her turning. We must have been at a stop
sign. She turned and looked at me. She said "Metaphysics?" and I had never heard the word
before. And I said "Yes!" So, you know, there you go.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 12:31
I'm not quite sure where I was going with that. So I had this background--I know! So, I liked
very much--the Vedanta philosophy of Hinduism is more kind of, I don't know, high flown.
And you could make diagrams and it's intellectual and high spiritual and this kind of thing.
But then of course, then there's the bhakta, which is the passionate singing, singing and
dancing with the love of God and these beautiful songs. So I had really enjoyed that at a
certain time. And for some reason, in Minneapolis here--and this was before our kids were
born. But I was married and I wanted to go find somebody doing this. At the time, I knew
this as bhajan and kirtan. Kirtan's gotten big now, which, whoever thought that would
happen? That's a funny thing. I looked around, nobody was doing it. So I thought, well, let's
start some, try to do this.
I was at the Meditation Center, I think they call it again now, over in North Minneapolis on
Sixth Street. It was the Center for Higher Consciousness for a while, and the name's gone
back and forth. But I went over there and they said, yes, you can have a space and you can
do this like once a week or whatever. And one guy showed up, who turned out to be the
main proponent, the main implementer of kirtan in the Cities now, he's one of the main
guys doing this. And we did, we started doing these chants, beautiful chants. This is going to
get to Sufis in a minute here.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:05
My husband started coming and we were doing this. And then we started something that
was called the Sunday Night Chanters, and we had about 20 people I think, and we were
not just doing these [Hinduism-based songs], but we were doing spiritual songs from a
bunch of different traditions. So, some of the Christian ones that are more really kind of
experiential, and, you know, rousing and heart-touching. And somebody showed up that
had some Earth spirituality chants and stuff. And then I was remembering back to my days
of the Dances of Universal Peace and I thought, "Oh, bring in some of these Sufi songs,"
which are very, very beautiful, some of them, they're powerfully affecting.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 14:39
I was bringing what I could remember because this is, this was now about 1984, maybe?
Yeah, around '83, '84. And then, I got--and these things happen on the spiritual path--I got a
flyer in the mail. I hadn't had anything thing to do with the Dances since the 70s. And at the
time, I was in Spokane, and then I was in Reno, and then I was here. And here's this flyer,
saying there's--at the time they called it Sufi Dancing--a Sufi Dancing weekend in Puget
Sound, Washington. And you know, and I said, "Okay, you know, I want to go." So I went,
and my husband was very nice and sweet about it. And, you know, he didn't mind me going
at all and I went, and I came back and I was completely into this. I was drenched in these
dances. Can I sing a little tiny thing into the mic?
Chad Berryman 15:28
Yeah, of course!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28
Okay, lovely. So here's just to give you an example. Again, there are things in Sanskrit and
things in Arabic and things in Hebrew and other languages. You know, but this one I love;
it's been with me lately. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi are two of the Divine Names, the 99 Names of
Allah, Asma al-Husna, and can be translated as O Healer, O Remedy. That's how they do it.
So, the one is for everyone and the other one is this specific--kind of like in Christianity,
"The sun shines on the just and the unjust." Ya Shafi is a little more like that. Ya Kafi is what
you need in this moment, what will work for this specific individual. They translate that, "O
Healer, O Remedy". So, you get these two parts going at once, so [singing]:
Karima Vargas Bushnell 15:28
Let me do Thy will Allah, (I'll get my drum.) Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah,
Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Let me do Thy will Allah, Allah, Allah. Ya Shafi,
Ya Kafi. Ya Shafi, Ya Kafi.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:00
So you'd have two or even possibly three of circles, three concentric circles. If you have
three, you have people in the middle going, "La Illaha Illa Allah," like that, which is a zikr
phrase, right? And then you have people doing these and doing different very simple
movements, you know, hold hands, raise their hands, come down like this, or, you know,
moving this way, moving that way. This kind of thing. So these are the Dances. I really,
really loved them.
So I came back from this weekend in Spokane, and I was all into this. I was like, "John, we
got to start doing this!" He's like, no, he didn't want to, he was sitting on the ground with
his drum and he was very happy. He did not want to get up and do these silly dances. And
they can look kind of silly when you first get into it if you run into the wrong ones. And he
ran into one of those. I remember him and some other man going, "Hu hu make-aloha". He's
like, no. He's a big bear-like guy with a big beard, you know, he's like, "No, I don't wanna do
that," you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 17:54
He wound up absolutely, eventually, falling in love with it. And now, for many years, he was
the one that led the Dances after I'd moved on to other things. So we made this transition
from the Sunday Night Chanters which was merely the singing and drumming, no
movement and no standing up or any of that, to the Dances of Universal Peace as they're
called now, and at the time, Sufi Dancing. And then we did that for quite a while. We did
that. I led that for six years, back in the day. And he was just drumming to start with and
then he kind of fell in love with it and took it over. And we had a little power struggle about
that, which was exciting. [Laughs.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:30
But then, at a certain point, also, I found a funny thing was happening with me. I started
getting drawn toward Islam. And this happened in three different ways simultaneously.
One thing was the Islamic-based dances were really touching me and calling me much more
than any of the others. And they're all about equally wonderful. They're all powerful, but
the different traditions, you know, [have different flavors and] are attractive to different
people.
Chad Berryman 18:53
Sure.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 18:54
So that was one thing that started happening. Then, we were doing this in the basement of
Walker Methodist--it's a long name--Walker United Community Methodist Church, or
something like that, or just Walker Church they call it, right. It burned down and they
rebuilt it now. But with a delightful pastor by the name of Brian, I can't remember [his last
name] at this moment.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 19:18
He was really funny. My son's name was Garek--his American name is Garek--Isa Nuraddin.
But he was a baby and this Brian, he'd hold him up in the air and go "Gark!" I think he
thought his name was funny. You know, you'd spell that G-A-R-K, Gark, it was just very silly.
But, we did the Dances there. And we got to know Brian, Brian Peterson was his name,
much beloved community activist and guy in town. He died a number of years ago. But he
contacted me at a certain point, you know, "Karima, I want to talk to you," and called me
into his office. And he wanted to start something that was going to be called the Spiritual
Discovery Center: a series of workshops and classes and whatnot on different--and some
kind of social things and I don't know, you know, emotional--I mean no exercises or
anything like that--but a spectrum of things. But I was interested in the spiritual things the
most. But he wanted to bring different teachers in and do different stuff. And would I like to
be the head of it? And I said absolutely I would, and I had a fine time doing that. It was just
great.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:19
So, in the course of that, at one time--I have a dear, dear friend who is a rabbi. And the thing
that's fun is he's actually the editor on my forthcoming book. He was also the editor on my
first book. He's the loveliest rabbi you would ever want to meet. I don't think he'd mind my
telling this. He used to walk in the Mayday Parade with an Israeli flag and a Palestinian flag
in his Hasidic garb. And he took some guff from some people for that, but he's just a
wonderful person. But let's see, now I'm out on a limb like a jazz musician, how to--where
did I come from?
Chad Berryman 20:54
The three ways--
Karima Vargas Bushnell 20:55
Oh, I know what it was. So the rabbi was already a friend and we had talked and somehow,
we--he had the idea or I had the idea--somehow the idea came about of having a trialogue, a
Muslim/Christian/ Jewish conversation with a panel. And that was pretty new then. He
said--Rabbi Gershom is his name--and he thought that this was the first time this had been
done in the Cities. I could find what the year was, I'm not sure right now, but it would have
been somewhere in the '80s. And so, you know, Christians are not hard to find. We found a
nice minister from a Protestant congregation. I don't remember his name now, very nice
guy. And we had Rabbi Gershom. And we got Caesar Farah who came and moderated, who
was a professor at the University. It was wonderful. I think he was Lebanese Christian, I
believe. I may be wrong on that, that's my memory. I know he was Christian. I think he was
originally Lebanese.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 21:53
But we had to find a Muslim someplace. Who knew, you know, "Where are they? I don't
know where they are," you know. So, I got the name of a mosque and called up. And they
were a little hesitant at first, like, "Who're you?" and it was kind of strange. And I met these
lovely two men.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 22:15
So, Imam Bilal, but not the Imam Bilal I know now, completely different, and Imam . . . I'm
so embarrassed, I can't remember his name. Imam Akbar was the other one. And they were
two friends. They were two of the leaders within the mosque. At the time they called it
Masjid Mu-JAD-id. Now I'd say Muja-DEED, and I'm not sure if they were just doing a
variation or what, but they called it Masjid MujADdid--and it was on the corner of, I think it
is Fourth Street and 38th. Right near here, you can see that building. Yes, that building was
some kind of Sikh organization or something after there at some point. Well, then they
changed it. At a certain point they changed it to the Masjid Al-Haqq, you know, mosque of
truth--and then it became the Masjid An-Nur. Their Nur is, you know, Nur means light, so
you hear the name all the time [for Muslim organizations]. It's no connection with us. And
they moved across the river and they're over in Northeast now. So, the Masjid An-Nur
that's there is the descendant or the continuation of this mosque, predominately an African
American mosque. Lovely people, plus they had those bean pies, which are so good. But
from the old days, [the original Nation of Islam], you know, right? So I met these guys.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 23:26
We had a number of dinners and things to talk or just, you know, to get together with
Caesar Farah and everybody that was involved. And as I got to know them more, and the
event went very well, it was very nice. But the more I got to know them, the more I felt like--I think I wrote about it, I called it a strange subterranean connection--I felt as though we
shared something. And that there were many, many things that I, in my worldview, that
was like their worldview. And there was just this, there was just a connection. I became
quite good friends with Imam Akbar. We once went with--and of course, it would not be
proper for the two of us to be together with just the two of us, so he had a Muslim woman
that he knew who was delightful, I don't remember her name now--and the three of us
went in a van up to a prison up north, I think near Duluth--this is many years ago, so I'm not
quite sure where it was--to talk to the Muslim prisoners, and he told us what he wanted us
to say. I went completely off the rails and said something completely different and told
them that because they're African American they're, you know, "You are oppressed, and it's
not your fault!" And he didn't seem to mind.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 24:40
But the whole way up, we were reading from the introduction to the Yusuf Ali Qur'an,
which was just wonderful. And, we're reading from this, and we were talking, and the three
of us just had the most special, beautiful time. And during this whole [time period], getting
to know these people, at one point I was in a house. And I think I was the first Caucasian
person that had ever been in this house. And this dear little girl just came and climbed up
on my lap and just looked up at me--hopefully not because I was had a funny color skin, you
know, I hope that's not what it was--but we just kind of fell in love. She was about five,
maybe. Oh, and I loved her, it's great you know. So I had these wonderful experiences. And I
felt such a kinship.
And then, and this will give the time of actually when this was happening, I guess a little
better, because the first Gulf War was declared. I was sitting there listening to my radio,
and I was absolutely convinced that this was going to be the end of the world. Oh, and I'm
going to backtrack a little bit. They thought it was kind of funny that I said I was a Sufi but I
wasn't a Muslim. That was odd. And I got every reaction from, "Well, you can't be that," to
"That's kind of weird." You know, there was a range. I remember standing at Walker
Church in front of this large group with a bunch of these folks in it. I said, "Well, you say you
can't have a non-Muslim Sufi, but like, here I am, so I'm proof, I'm here." They were very
polite. But it would be a little bit like saying, "Well, I'm a Hasid, but I'm not Jewish," you
know. Or "I'm a Christian mystic, but I'm not Christian, though." That's how it sounded to
them, just kind of nuts, really.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:19
Although there have [historically] been some people that have taken initiation into Sufi
orders that were not Muslim. And in fact, our order initiates people--and I'll say something
else about that--you don't have to be Muslim to take hand, which is what we call it, into our
Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 26:36
Let's see, so I want to finish up this segment because there's just a little bit more to this. So
it was the night the first Gulf War came on the radio, and I was absolutely sure this was the
end of the world. This was the beginning of the end of the world. And I realized, "It's the
end of the world--I want to be with these Muslims, I want to be one of them." And I phoned
up, I phoned Imam Akbar and his wife and said this. I can't remember quite what he said to
me on the phone, but it was very supportive. And then he wrote me a letter that I still have
somewhere, and the line I remember, is it says, "You are a beautiful Muslim soul." That was
in there. And it was the most touching, lovely thing. So at a certain point, I did take shahada.
I guess the three directions that this came from... the falling in love with the Muslim Dances
of Universal Peace, and then the meeting with Imam Bilal and Imam Akbar, and particularly
Imam Akbar, [and suddenly finding many books on Sufism that said you had to be a Muslim
to be a Sufi, which made me doubt my authenticity.] But I didn't take shahada for quite a
long time after that either.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 27:47
Then I had this back and forth, because and I didn't know about Wahhabis. And you're
familiar with Wahhabism, I'm sure--I didn't know about this. I had a series of wonderful
and terrible experiences with Muslims, so I couldn't figure it out. Because I would meet
someone, and I guess I can encapsulate this with a little incident that happened in a parking
garage. There used to be a lot of Somali or other Muslim--I think they were mostly Somali,
maybe some Ethiopians and stuff--parking attendants, you know, and you'd go out and
they'd give you your ticket, and or you give them the ticket to pay and all that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 28:20
And so one time I was there, and there were two guys in the booth, and I went out and one
of them--I think I might have said salaam aleikum or something to him--and this guy, it's
like we just fell into each other's eyes. Not in any romantic way, but just in a universal love
kind of way. This was the most beautiful, expansive, you know, sometimes you meet
somebody who just clicks like that. And so just this love, this acceptance, these connections
on higher levels, just this wonderful, you know, "My brother, there you are!"
And then I happened to catch eyes with the other guy, and he was the exact opposite. I have
never seen such disgust and rejection, and you know, "Oh, you're evil, I hate you!" It was
the exact opposite. That was crazy. And this was within, you know, within a half a minute or
a minute. And then I drove on--"Boy, that was kind of weird," you know? So I would meet
Muslims that were so--and women also, I kind of seem like I'm talking about men, but
women also--people that were so loving and so accepting and so generous and so kind. And
they were everything that I wanted to be, and they talked about what they wanted for the
world, and it completely agreed with everything I wanted, and everything they believed,
and justice and kindness and faith and it was perfect.
And then I would meet people that were so extremely rule-oriented, and very, to me, like
really nitpicky--even though I didn't have really a problem with that then because I wanted
to learn, you know. But one time at the masjid this woman jumped all over me because I
had a little tiny bit of hair showing, which you're not supposed to. And now I can suit up
properly with the best of 'em and not show any, you know, but I had a little tiny bit of hair
showing on my forehead or something. And she really jumped on me and really gave me a
lecture. Imam Akbar kind of scolded her. And then I said, "Oh, no, please, please, I want to
learn, thank you, sister, thank you." But I didn't take shahada for a long time because of
these confusing, alternating experiences.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 30:15
Eventually I kind of got to a point where I didn't know what to do because I felt as though I
didn't really fit in anywhere. I didn't fit in with the Muslims, mainly because I was not
willing to say that Hinduism is a lie. You know, Buddhism--we had sponsored Tibetans, we
had Tibetans living in our house, and they're impressive people. I'm not personally drawn
to Buddhism, but Hinduism I'd had a deep connection with and found a lot of truth in that.
Or I couldn't say that--it's funny, I wanted to be a Catholic since I was a little tiny peanut.
The people next door were Catholics, I would have joined in a heartbeat. The kids, their
kids, they had no use for it. They didn't want anything to do with it. But I was upset that
they got to go to catechism and I didn't get to go to catechism and I wanted to go. My mom
was a big Planned Parenthood buff, so that was never going to happen, you know.
But I was not willing to say that these other religions were false and wrong. I couldn't do it,
you know. So I didn't fit in anywhere. It's as though I was in this canyon with nothing under
my feet and, you know, communities on either side, and I didn't go anywhere. And then I
met Shaykh Nur al-Jerrahi, whose picture is over there, who I will show you at the
appropriate moment. I wrote him a poem one time and I said that I was like him, but, "I'm
an ant struggling up a small rock with a grain of sugar while you climb a mountain with a
ton of wild honey." So I had done all the same things he'd done except he did them on a
grand scale.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 31:43
He studied world religions. He was first at Yale and then he was at Columbia and he'd
written a bunch of books and he traveled all over. He practiced the religions, he really,
really practiced them, and he was just magnificent. And he had taken shahada with Shaykh
Muzaffer al-Jerrahi of Istanbul, who was this beautiful Shaykh whose picture is also around
here. So, with Shaykh Nur I found somebody that I could become Muslim with and yet not
have to say I renounce Christianity, I renounce, you know [my previous traditions]. So that
was it. So then, there's me.
So then for many years, my husband was still a Ruhaniat American non-Muslim Sufi. I've
been a Muslim since 1993. And you know, Muslims will tell you you're a "revert", "Every
child is born a Muslim," but to me that's speaking about a different level. But I took shahada
in '93. And I gave up [expecting that my husband would ever convert]! I'd tell people, "My
husband is non-Muslim," and I had a Saudi guy one time, "Well, you must divorce him!"
"Well, no, I don't think I'm going to do that". But then the women, they'd say like, "Inshallah
sister, inshallah someday." And I'd say, "Oh, yeah, inshallah," that'll happen, you know. And
about, I don't know, three or four years ago now, he wound up taking shahada, which
surprised the heck out of me. I wasn't even around. He did it at a Sufi camp and he came
back and told me that he'd done it. So that was a lot of fun.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 32:58
He is still a teacher of the Ruhaniat order, which is one of these Inayati orders from Hazrat
Inayat Khan. And I am a circle leader--khalifa is the title--in the Nur Ashki Jerrahi Order,
under Shaykha Fariha. And so we have these two parallel organizations. So there, now that
kind of explains the whole thing pretty much.
Chad Berryman 33:24
Yeah!
Karima Vargas Bushnell 33:25
All right.
Chad Berryman 33:27
Kind of going off of that, I think you hinted at it. You were talking about Shaykh Muzaffer,
you know, these other people. And also thinking about, you know, things you mentioned
concerning relationships with various Muslims and various Muslim communities. Could
you speak a little bit about how you feel, or how taking the shahada or how just practicing
Sufism, however you want to interpret your journey, and how that has changed the manner
in which you feel connection to these people, these communities? Not just in and around
the Twin Cities, but, you know, like, Shaykh Muzaffer obviously is a very concrete
connection to Istanbul.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 34:21
Yes. Actually, the thing I want to touch for a moment on is the thing with African American
Muslims. Because I, and again, you know, I know this is going to be archived, and I have no
issues about saying this, I'm proud of it. It was great. And my husband has no issues with it
either. Because I'm a kid from the 70s, so, you know, I was a hippie. But I had an
approximately four-year relationship with an African American man as my significant
other, which we were quite the comedy act, because he was six-foot-three and thin, and I'm
five feet--well I was five two at the time. And I had my little Indian print skirt, and we both
had our sandals, and he had the guru whites. I don't know if you've ever--sort of floaty
material and like a Panama hat with bells on it, right? We were hilarious. And I had the little
square glasses, you know?
And we hitchhiked all around Nevada, California, and Washington with a little dog by the
name of Ratty, for Ratlips. We didn't call him that, there's a story about that, too. And, I had
my guitar and we had our backpacks or whatever we had, and a bright yellow bass fiddle
because he was a musician and some fool had painted this thing bright yellow. We had
bought it, and eventually I think we stripped it off or he did and you know, put it back to its
natural color. But you know, you see this circus act hitchhiking on the road. And people
loved us. They wanted to pick us up, they just loved us, you know, especially with the bright
yellow bass fiddle and the little dog and the whole deal, you know. So we had a lot of fun.
So I had connections with the African American community before meeting Muslims
because I lived with his family for a while, and then we lived with some friends of his in a
house in San Jose, California. 12th Street, which I guess was considered kind of rough. We
hitchhiked when we first got there. And it was a beautiful night out and I went for a walk
around the block. I guess people were unloading, people were whatever, they were talking,
whatever was going on. I went for a walk around the block. I got back and about six people
said, "What were you doing? Where were you?" I said I went for a walk around the block.
"Walk around the block, are you insane?"
Karima Vargas Bushnell 36:19
So it's pretty funny. But I got a good course in some sociology and different things from
these people. Because it helped me understand some things I had never understood. And
the moment--I do have a story about that. So it was on the front porch of the house on 12th
Street. And I said, you know, the ignorant questions you have when you don't know any
better. I said, "Well, you guys, like I know slavery was really, really horrible and awful. But,
you know, that was a long time ago. I mean, wasn't that a long time, isn't it time to move on
from that?"
And it's funny, I've always had a lot of friendships with men. I don't know why. I have good
friendships with women too, but I always, that's what happens. That was funny. When I
became Muslim, I didn't realize I was going to become a Muslim woman. I thought I was just
going to become a Muslim. That was a shock. Big shock.
But anyway, three of these guys--and my guy, Jack, he was not there, he was probably off
playing a gig, he played all the time--and they whirled around on me with no anger, but
great intensity. And they said, "No, it's still it's happening! It's happening now!" And this
was probably 1975. So it was a big wake-up call for me.
And then somehow, I had the feeling that I'd ducked under a fence and come out on the
other side living in San Jose and living with these folks. I don't know what it was--if
something changed in the way I walked or how I presented myself or something. Even
when I was by myself. It used to be the white people would see me and the black people
wouldn't see me. Now the black people could see me and the white people would ignore
me. It was the oddest thing. And they'd greet, you know, and I missed that when I moved to
Minneapolis, the way people greet each other in the street. You get that sometimes here,
but there that was really the custom. And so being greeted by all these lovely African
American men and women and greeting them back and it was just normal, it was just great.
You know, so I had that background.
So I was very pleased when I met the Muslims here, and they were all African American, the
ones I knew. And at one point early on, one of the sisters--this is one of my couple of first
times in the Masjid Mujaddid--and she said, "Sister, we know some white Muslim women.
We can introduce you to them so you'll be more comfortable." And I just burst into tears.
Because my understanding was that Islam was not about that, that I would finally be able to
move beyond that and just be a human being with other human beings, you know? So that
was a big disappointment.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 38:47
Yeah, so I've done this very naive thing twice in my life where, you know, "These people are
the bad people. And they're the phonies, and I'm going to get away from them. And I'm
going to these people who are the real people, the good people, the right people." So I did
that with hippies. And then you find out there are phony hippies, and there are people who
are just as snobbish about their ripped jeans, and whatever, as these other people are
about their fancy suits. There's no difference. The only difference is the costume. So then I
made the same mistake with black people, you know, "All black people are good and nice
and kind. They're the good people," and I did that. And of course that also is not the case.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:24
So, you asked me about my identity with or, you know, my feelings toward different
communities. So there was that. That's precious to me. Because even now, there's segment
of people that will just look at me as--of course, if I wore the hijab all the time, it'd help, and
I don't. I wear it for prayer. And I wear it on 'Eid. And I wear it for the zikr--but a certain
number of people will just look at me as a Muslim sister and another human being and
there's not that color business, you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 39:57
But you also mentioned Istanbul. I did travel there. I spent two weeks in 2012 in Istanbul
and Konya, and I love it so much, and I want to go back. And that is a place that I have
imagined living there many times. Of course, the situation politically now there is not too
pleasant, you know. But I hope to go back someday. I love Shaykh Muzaffer though I never
met him. He was Shaykh Nur's teacher. There used to be a book with a photograph of
Shaykh Muzaffer on the back. And the book, I think we had it over here, but I don't think we
have that one. I have that picture somewhere. It was removed, because there was a group
that wanted to republish it, but there was a picture of him smoking. He's got a cigarette.
He's got a cup of coffee and a cigarette. He had great big hands. The coffee cup looks like a
doll's teacup.
But because there are Muslim schools of law, as I understand it--and this could be wrong.
So if I'm wrong, you know, apologies. The four madhabs, I don't know the plural, of Sunni
Islam. There are a couple of them in which smoking is forbidden and a couple in which it's
merely disapproved. Or maybe there's a couple where it's neutral and a couple where it's
disapproved, and nobody forbids it. I'm not sure. But anyway, these guys were not down
with the smoking. They got a different picture.
But in this original picture, he had the most beautiful, charming smile on his face, kind of a
glimmer in his eye. And the Dances of Universal Peace, the American Sufi thing I was talking
about, used to have what we called Sufi Camp. It could be a weekend, it could be a week,
you'd go somewhere--it was blissful. And they would sell books at these, of course, and
there'd be a book table that was there. And there'd be this picture of Shaykh Muzaffer on
this book. And I don't know, the book must have been turned over, or I'm wrong and it was
on the front, I'm not sure. But I'd walk by that, and he'd always catch my eye and twinkle at
me. And I was like, "Oh, that's weird." So the picture was like, "Oh, hello!" That was pretty
fun.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 41:50
But Shaykh Nur was the teacher of my life. He's the one people write about, "Oh, and then I
met my guru and everything changed." That was him, you know, for me. And many people-his American name is Lex Hixon. And he wrote, I think, about 10 books on different world
religions. And many people who knew him believed that he was an enlightened being, and I
did, you know. I mean he was like nobody I ever met. But now I have this wonderful teacher
called Imam Bilal Hyde. And in a completely different way, he is equally amazing. So I've
been blessed twice. And I'm studying Qur'an and things with him, you know?
Chad Berryman 42:33
You mentioned being in New York. Could you speak a little bit about connections between
the center here--and I believe from my knowledge there's the one in New York and then
also one in Mexico City--and, you know, how often do you all interact? How close is that
community?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 43:02
Yes, that's a really good question. So Shaykha Fariha is the head of the whole thing. And the
two largest groups are New York and Mexico City. Shaykha Amina Taslima is in Mexico City.
And I have pictures--I wish I could get the pictures somehow into the archive --but I have a
picture of the two of them together. And they're like a couple of, I don't know, a couple of
opposite angels. Shaykha Fariha is very ethereal, and Shaykha Amina Taslima is pretty
down to earth, but very smart--I mean, really spiritual, but in a completely different way.
And a wonderful sense of humor, also. I guess they both have that, but in different ways. So
those are the two biggest groups.
Aside from that, there are smaller circles around the country and in some other places in
the world. There was one in Senegal. I'm not sure if that's still operating because Ummu
Malik, who was the woman heading that, had a daughter in a terrible car accident and they
brought her here--not here--but to New York for the healing and stuff. And so I don't know
what ever happened with that circle. But there was one there. There's one in Australia,
there's one in Germany. There are one or two in Puerto Rico. And offhand, I can't think
where else, but there are some other ones. And then different places in the US. So we are
one of those circles.
Those were going on when Shaykh Nur was around and they were called the Circles of Nur
at the time. This is when we were still part of the Helveti Jerrahi order based in Istanbul.
We were forced to break with them because a more conservative Shaykh than Shaykh
Muzaffer came in and he would not acknowledge the leadership of a woman. That [lack of
acknowledgement] just wasn't cool, and Shaykha Fariha had tried everything. But she was
our Shaykha. Shaykh Muzaffer made her a Shaykha. There's a green turban that's put on the
person's head ceremonially when they're made a shaykh, and Shaykh Muzaffer put it on
Shaykh Nur, and then he took it off Shaykh Nur and put it on Shaykha Fariha at the same
time. So she was initiated at that same level. She didn't really take up her teaching
responsibilities so much--she did some obviously--but she didn't do as much until he
became ill and passed.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:18
But the new leadership would not acknowledge her. They kept talking about her husband
and he was not--that wasn't him at all. They were like, "Oh, please send your husband to
talk to us." Well, no. So, regretfully, then, we did break from them and became the Nur
Ashki Jerrahi order. And we consider our Pirs, our founding saints, as Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi,
same as the Helveti Jerrahi, but also Shaykh Muzaffer and Shaykh Nur are also our Pirs. I
forget what the question was. Oh, you asked how often?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 45:50
Yes. A group from here went a few years ago, seven of us from here went to New York and
spent I think a week there with them. And we stayed in the Dergah--if you’re a dervish
there's a place you can stay upstairs, just on the mats or whatever--and had the most
beautiful time. It was very transforming and a blessing for us.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 46:11
The circle guides do get together, usually once a year or once every two years. I'm hoping
it's going to be once a year. And we get together sometimes in New York in Yonkers where
they have--this was Effendi's house that Shaykha Fariha and her husband at the time got
for him. Big, beautiful house. And so we stay there in Yonkers. Or sometimes we meet at a
retreat center in Albuquerque, a Catholic retreat center. So we meet different places once a
year for maybe about five days. And then we're constantly in touch by email and whatnot.
Chad Berryman 46:51
Could you speak a little bit about how you visualize or how you understand the Light Upon
Light Center's place or role within kind of the social ecosystem of Minneapolis or even just
of this neighborhood?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:11
That's a great question. That's a really good question. And we're kind of funny. If you look
at our website, we would seem to be extremely big and active, you know. But actually, I
think we're in an expansion phase. So we had been kind of contracted, almost to the point
where we would have had to either forget the whole thing or be reborn and change. And I
think we've been reborn, and we're changing. We're a place--our vision and mission
statement are kind of fun. I don't know if I can remember them just out of my head, which
is kind of silly. Oh, that's extremely silly. I have it on a piece of paper over there, I'm going
to walk over--
Chad Berryman 47:21
Absolutely.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 47:23
Because it's very germane to your question. Yes, thank goodness, I have it. You can take one
of these home. Okay, so, Light Upon Light Sufi center, our vision: "A vibrant, interconnected
community of people growing on the spiritual path." Our mission: "Helping people awaken
through Sufism and related mystical traditions." And when we first started, we had people
from other traditions presenting, but always the mystics, we always were going for that.
Not the cultural religion, or, you know, the religion that you go do it because you were
taught it and it's comforting. And there's nothing wrong with that, but we always kind of
went for the mystics [those who seek actual experience of God-Presence.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 48:33
So it is our goal to connect with other mystical paths. That actually is having an awakening
with us right now, There's something exciting going on with that. There are some mystical
Christians--and, again, my memory for details is not always the best--but they're right in
the neighborhood, right nearby. And they used to come and do a thing here sometimes, and
we'd go to theirs. And we've had Hindu folks come here, you know, practitioners of some
forms of that.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:07
It's funny, we're a borderland. We're also very open to gay people, transgender people,
whatever. We're a place where everybody's welcome. And I think we're a place for people
that might not be comfortable in some other places, you know. A thing we have in common
with the Dergah al-Farah [our New York headquarters,] that I love is that we do have actual
born Muslims that come, you know. [American Sufi groups normally don't.]
Karima Vargas Bushnell 49:36
So over the years--this sounds like a tiny proportion, but actually we are pretty tiny. I
mean, a big group for us over our whole life would be maybe 30-40 people. That's big.
That's a big gathering, you know. So a lot of times you get six people, you get eight people.
Sometimes the weather is bad, and you get two people or nobody, you know. Now where
was I going? I do that. I get off on my jazz riff and I can't get back. It's like you get off on the
branch and it's too thin out there and you can't get back. Oh, yes, I've lost my thread. Oh,
how silly.
Chad Berryman 50:12
Talking about connections with other mystics, the difference between you and Dergah alFarah and the born Muslims.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 50:19
Oh, that was it, right. So over the years, we've had an Iraqi man and an Iranian woman who
both used to come, and he still comes when he's in town. He's a dear friend. This is Sami
Rasouli who is a well-known. He started something called the Muslim Peace Teams. And he
goes back and forth between Najaf, where he's from, and here. He was here for many years.
He had a beautiful restaurant. He was on the cover of the Twin Cities magazine right before
9/11, the month before 9/11 he was on there. And of course that just devastated his life,
and he eventually wound up going back to Najaf and did work with the Sunnis and the
Shias. A bunch of Shia people went to a Sunni town that had been devastated and picked up
their garbage and did stuff for them, and people were hugging and dancing in the streets.
And he's a lovely person. So he goes there and he lives there I guess most of the time, and
then he comes back here and raises money and brings it over. And he brings groups back
and forth. He's brought Iraqi artists and mayors and stuff here, and they're very active. So
he used to come.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 51:24
[The Iranian was] a delightful woman who was a mathematician and moved out to
California to do her PhD in math for her teaching. We're still in touch. Two Turkish guys.
One of them moved because of his wife's career, but he still keeps in touch. Another man
that comes now sometimes. And now, on our Zoom zikr, we have a lovely sister from Cairo.
Oh, and she's still in her--we have to stop and say a quick prayer for her because she is
doing her PhD dissertation as we speak--not dissertation, defending her dissertation, if that
is the right word--she's in front of her committee as we speak.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 52:06
So, for Kabira, which is her Sufi name. Somebody just told me you only do the Fatiha for
dead people, but not our order, we do 'em for anybody. So, for Kabira and her success right
now with her committee may it all go well- Dearest Allah Al Fatiha Allahuma sali Allah,
sayyidina Muhammad salallahu 'alahi wa salam. Bismillahir rahmanir rahim. Alhamdulilahi
rabil 'alamin. Ar-rahmanir rahim. Maliki yaum ad-din. 'Iyaaka na'budu wa 'iyaaka nasta'iin.
Ihdinas siratal mustaqim. Siratal ladhina 'an 'amta alayhim. Ghayril maghdubi 'alayhim wa
la daaliin. Ameen. And asking the intercession of Hazrati Pir Nuradeen Jerrahi, Mother
Amina Taslima, mother of our Pir, Muzaffer Ashki al-Jerrahi, his teacher Ibrahim Fahradeen
al-Jerrahi, and Nur al-Anwar al-Malik al-Habib al-Jerrahi, please intercede and let this go
well, oh beloveds, thank you so much, ya Allah, ya Hu! Didn't forget it, ameen. Okay, very
good. I just noticed the time and realized she is in front of her committee as we speak. So I
have no idea where I was!
Chad Berryman 53:24
No, that's all right. I'm wondering, you know, having gotten a lot of background now, if you
could--I'm sure there are many, and it's probably difficult to choose--but do you have, you
know, one or a handful of favorite memories or moments in the history of even just the
space right here?
Karima Vargas Bushnell 53:52
Oh, that's very nice. By the way, sometimes our bigger events we have upstairs. They have a
big room, they call it the Sunroom--you know, wooden floor for dancing and such. Oh, my
goodness. That's funny. I don't think I can do that. It's just kind of a continuous flow.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:18
I have wonderful memories. Sometimes somebody leaves, sometimes something happens
and somebody leaves. So I have wonderful memories of a couple that wound up actually
moving on. So it was heaven, and then it kind of turned to heartbreak. These things happen
in organizations at times, you know.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 54:37
Not a particular thing. But we've had, you know, Eid celebrations--we've had some
powerful zikrs, dhikrullah, in here. We've had some wonderful Dances. Just, there's that
moment where you touch in where you think you're leading something and you're trying to
do a good job, and you're feeling like a fool and hoping you can get it right. And then all of a
sudden, it's taken out of your hands. And it's Allah.
And actually a lot of people, you know, we have some people that see visions and such, and
people see a lot in here, they see a lot of beings. They see a lot of, you know, Sufis, and Sufi
teachers or, "Well, I don't know who that was, and then there was this pillar of light came
down,"--people see a lot of stuff in here. So there's a lot going on in this. And that's in Islam
too, the tradition that the angels attend the zikrs. People see these things, and I don't see
them, but I sense them very strongly. So it's more just not particular events, but that
stepping into sacred space, which really feels different. I felt it a bit when we did the prayer
just now. You know, and when you said ameen, I felt that, you know. So I think that would
be more my answer to that.
Chad Berryman 55:44
Thank you. That's awesome. You know, I am looking at the clock, and I know Bob has to get
going. But, I just, you know, wanted to give you a chance if there's anything in general that
you want to mention before we close. You know, I thank you again for sitting down with
me. Because I feel that you've, maybe even without knowing it, demonstrated very well
how just the story of one individual or of one, you know, one space is really many stories.
And so, if you have anything you want to--
Karima Vargas Bushnell 56:27
I do have one thing, because we talked a lot about the past and maybe a little bit about the
present, so looking at the present and the future. And I did feel as though last year we were
kind of in a, you know, like a butterfly, you've got to--I don't know, you can't say
"metamorphose". So what is the verb of that? I don't know, "morph"? They're saying morph
now, which is cute. But, you know, you either have to die or you have to change. Something
very special is happening with us.
I am getting more and more drawn to the Nur Ashki Jerrahi dhikrullah and the Qur'an. I'm
in love with the Qur'an. When I was doing the Dances, I had a dream one time. It was a little
procession, a bunch of us going up some wooden stairs, it might have been the church we
had the Dances in. And I think there were maybe seven of us there like that. That would be
very symbolic if it was seven, and I think maybe it was. We each had a holy book, and I had
the Qur'an. But we went up the stairs. And then there was a place where you couldn't get
through anymore, it narrowed and then you couldn't go any further. So that was kind of
interesting. But I had this Quran, it was like that was my job. It wasn't any better than any
of the other holy books. But that was the one that I was carrying, you know, so I've really
fallen in love with the Qur'an.
So I'm really loving our zikr since we started having it on Zoom. When this horrible,
horrible weather was going on, you know, nobody really was coming here. In fact, we
started having it at our house so I wouldn't even have to go out at one point. And a couple
times a couple people came, but we'd have one or two people in the room. And then we'd
have five or six people coming over the internet. And of these people, one of them is a
Bosnian Muslim woman from Sarajevo. And one of them is the woman that we just prayed
for who is from Cairo and is an international student in Boulder.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 57:01
And so it's such a blessing and the thing that to me connects with the Dergah al-Farah-which was the Masjid al-Farah back in Shaykh Nur's day--but the Dergah al-Farah, is that
it's a mixture of Americans and Westerners who've been drawn to Sufism and born
Muslims who either grew up Sufi--both of them had Sufi background, but they weren't
necessarily raised with it, or at least the woman from Bosnia wasn't because you didn't
hear too much [about Sufism in that time and place]. I mean, you've got some of it.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 58:09
But you know, so they bring that. It's like the people bring different gifts, and it's the crosspollination that is wonderful. I almost said cross-pollinization, which would be very funny.
So that's one thing. That's what's going on with me.
Now, my husband--it's good I said all this earlier about the Hinduism and bhajan and kirtan
and all of that--because kirtan, the singing of these Hindu chants, which I see it as, and
Muslim friends I know that honor Hinduism, we see this as aspects of God. Well, they're
either prophets--Hazrat Inayat Khan looked at these, Krishna, Rama and such, as prophets,
because the Qur'an says prophets have been sent to every nation, you know, so they see it
that way. Or you can look at them as aspects of God. But anyway, this kirtan, this chanting
of these holy songs from Hinduism, has gotten quite big. Same way nobody had ever heard
of yoga and all of a sudden everybody's doing yoga. Well, it's not to that level, but quite big
in the Twin Cities, quite a thing. And yet still, many people haven't heard of zikr, of
dhikrullah.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 59:34
So, the retreat I'm going to this weekend, and I will finish up--I too am aware of Bob. Bob is
the cat, we didn't say this on the air before: he's a cat, he's got to get to the vet. But the
people here, many people here in sort of the spiritual, the generalized spiritual community,
are much more familiar with kirtan than they are with zikr. So the weekend I'm going to
this weekend is a Sufi/ Yogi weekend, kirtan and dhikrullah and practices from both
traditions up near Duluth. Pretty exciting. Well, my husband has gotten really into this and
he's a musician, and he is a fine singer, songwriter, guitar player. He's taking it really to a
level of expertise that's impressive. I play in an Irish band, by the way, and if I want to stop
people, I say, "I'm Muslim, and I play Irish music. I play Irish fiddle." And then that breaks
all their stereotypes.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:00:34
But anyway, he is starting a thing like that down here--and this is going to be happening
inshallah pretty soon in the future--have these kirtan/zikr meetings. That's a real blessing.
So these are the new things that are going on for us. I'm going deeper into the Islamic
Sufism and he is spreading wider into the interfaith mysticism and of course, we're both
very down with both, too. So there. Thank you so much for asking me that. That's
everything I have to say, I think.
Chad Berryman 1:01:04
Well, thank you so much again, I really do appreciate it.
Karima Vargas Bushnell 1:01:06
Very welcome.
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