Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Sat, 2/20 3:08PM
1:35:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, dude, ai, shit, girl, kate, man, thought, human, teeth, petty misdemeanor, day, walking, job,
good, story, told, big, bike, eat
SPEAKERS
Sean Johnson, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
So thank you for join... Show more
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Sat, 2/20 3:08PM
1:35:23
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, dude, ai, shit, girl, kate, man, thought, human, teeth, petty misdemeanor, day, walking, job,
good, story, told, big, bike, eat
SPEAKERS
Sean Johnson, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
So thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade. Could you please introduce yourself for
the record and tell us what your position is?
S
Sean Johnson 00:16
My name is Sean Johnson. Born 3/31/68. I was originally in Louisiana and I live in
Minneapolis. my position is I was homeless for the past three years. But I've been in
housing for the last year.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:35
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I'd like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and have that this interview is stored at Augsburg University, which will be
made available to the public.
S
Sean Johnson 00:48
Yes.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:49
Okay. Thank you. So can you tell me more about where you grew up, and who you call
family.
S
Sean Johnson 00:55
I grew up in a town called Ponchatoula, Louisiana. And what I call family was a family of
10. five boys, five girls. My mom had three kids, but my dad had seven later. So I grew up in
a big family. I have a daughter now of my own, one. And that's pretty much it.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:21
Can you describe your educational background?
S
Sean Johnson 01:24
Education, that's a funny one. Um, I was actually honor student in my whole life. But I quit
school and I kind of gave up on school. I'm a cancer survivor, I got cancer at 15. So I
finished high school, I went to Southern University for a semester, then got kicked out
second, second semester that quit going. And then at 19, I moved to Minnesota. And I
worked at the U of M. And they payed for school. So I got about two years, and that was
at that same time. I got about two years, there doing a work-study thing. So I probably
could graduate if I go back for about two years, going back to three semesters, but that's
pretty much it.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:11
How has homelessness and our housing insecurity affected your body, your mind your
spirit?
S
Sean Johnson 02:18
Boom! It affects all that. The thing that homelessness does that I don't think it gets enough
credit for is actually the people that survive on this gives enough credit for it because you
get attacked physically, you get attacked mentally, you get attacked morally, you know,
it'll attack financially. You know, it just takes your spirit away, man, and you don't even
notice it. Until you see yourself doing things. You look in the mirror one day, like "Who the
hell, you know, is looking back at me?" But for me, I think my blessing is the people that
raised me, you know what I mean? Because I was raised at a different time in a different
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place. And their moral compass always stuck with me in the darkest nights. And I'm
grateful for the people that raised me, even though at the time they were doing it I was
kind of like, you know, "This is some bullshit." But as I'm on the outside of the journey, the
homeless journey, I know that's what got me through it. Because, for me, you know, I've
seen things that I know I could have done to make my journey a lot shorter. But there
would have been victim to that. And I didn't see putting my misery on someone else. As it
would have been. No one would have knew. I mean, I could have got away clean. But I
would have known. And I know that as I'm turning slightly at home on the housing side,
the race is lasted a lot longer than I would have liked it to. But I know along the way I
didn't compromise who I am so I'm proud of that. It's not easy, though, to be totally honest
with you.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:06
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. How did you first become homeless?
S
Sean Johnson 04:11
When I first became homeless, we had a house man, me and my daughter's mom. I met
her, we were 19 in St. Paul, like 1000 years ago. Anyway, she got a job with the city of
Minneapolis, we were in Saint Paul, and at the time Sharon Sayles Belton was the mayor.
And you had to live in a city to work for the city. So we bought a house in the south. We
have a kid who's like 35 or so. You know, and those were the old days, she got a little older
and we decided to sell the house. And my whole thing with that was you take all the
proceeds from the house, cause I had 4500 in the bank. And I'm gonna just take that, you
make sure Kari (daughter) is okay, and I'll be fine. And then I get to the bank and my
money was gone. And I was like, "you kidding me?" And to this day I don't know who I paid
off. You know, but I was healthy and I didn't think it would be a big deal. I thought I'd just
go to a shelter for a little bit, you know, and get back on my feet and that was three years
ago. But what I didn't realize was the criminalization of being homeless. I know that what
they'll do is give you this little misdemeanor citation for just being somewhere, or
offending this cop, it's just just stupid. And it sounds like a petty misdemeanor. If you didn't
grew up in a system that just sound like, "what's that what's the worst could happen?" But
what the evil in that is the cop that gives you that petty misdemeanor, he knows that you
can't get a job for two years. When I got that thing, I had no clue that that meant my legs
were taken from me, because that's really what happened. Because I could go get a job,
but I couldn't get a job to keep me from coming back to the shelter at night. Now at any
moment, right now I can call Linda, my daughter's mom. But the deal was you take and
makesure Kari's straight, which she did, and she still is doing. But I kept my word on that.
And I could have called her soon the money was gone. You know what I'm saying? And
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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kept on keeping on, but my word actually meant something then and still means
something now. And even as she has helped me out along the way, and she woudl help me
now if I asked her to, but I choose not to. Because the deal was you take Kari. And we're
still friends don't get me wrong? We'll always be friends, I'll always love her, we just not
together no more. So that's how it pretty much started. And another thing, the staff at
these places, oh my God. I get the human factor. Because you're dealing with people that
aren't there mentally, human tumors deal with humans, right? And you get burnt out. Once
you get burned out, you should step away. Because they start doing things to people that
at the time, it don't seem like a big deal. But the time you spent in this journey adds to it,
like throwing away your belongings, you know. In those belongings is your IDs, you can't
even get the shitty job without your ID. So now you gotta go, you see what I'm saying? And
all those little things that don't seem like much go from what I thought was gonna be,
maybe I get me 2 or 3 checks. It went from that, to three years later, I'm sitting across from
Isaac, telling him, you know, what the hell just happened, you know, saying? But as I said
here, you know, it does not put enough emphasis on once you get out to stay out. They'd
like you to stay in the system. Everything is about revolving around in the system. You
know, it's every time I had a job, I had to try and make it first shift because anytime after
that you lose your bed. So I couldn't get a job where I didn't need the bed. But in order to
get a job to just be able to eat and just to survive, you lose your bed. Because it's set up for
you to just lay round all day, and then go get to bed at 5:00. By 5:30 the bed is gone. So
now you worked all day they're gonna be out all night. Just it just a lesson in learning, I
think.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:23
Thank you for sharing that that's really in depth perspective. From your experiences from
what you've seen. What do you see as the main causes of homelessness or housing
insecurity?
S
Sean Johnson 08:40
I know that there's a ton of great people trying to do good work. However, too many times
people come to the problem with a solution. And they don't really know it. They looking at
the problem through the lens of their eyes from the lens of their experience, and what they
would do to make that better if it were them. However, is not. And from looking at it
through my lens, I run into that all the time. And then once tell them what's really going
on, they get offended. "How could this not be the right answer? Because, I went to Yale
and at Yale, they say that if this happens, that happens!" But this ain't Yale. This Hennepin
and Franklin, you know what I'm saying? This is Yale, but a different kind of Yale. You see
what I'm saying? And so your degree at Yale ain't really got nothing to do with how the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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hell you feed your guy. As a human being, as a man, as a black man. I can only talk about
it from these eyes. As a right as a black man, you're hungry. You know that theirs food
over there. You just saw people run off with the food, but your moral compass tell you that
that's not the right thing to do. But your stomach tells you, "look at here dude, who's really
going to know?" But that goes back to running the race and getting the true reward at the
end, as opposed to getting to the end, and it's really not the end because you ran the
race so shady. You see what I'm saying? And you think this was your reward when it really
was that. So now that I'm coming at the end of it, I can't unsee the things I've seen;
humans doing just inhumane things. And I'm not jumping up and down or anything like
that, but I can honestly, honestly, even if no one ever knew, look in the mirror and say I
have never ever screwed over, you see what I'm saying? And that cost me time. There were
situations where yeah, it would have been it made my day a whole lot easier. And there's
people out there who don't even konw you screwed them over. And that's another sad
thing. They shouldn't be around people that think it's okay. One example, right? You had
this woman. Now she's amongst her friends. She's talking right? Every dollar she own fell
out of her thing, and she's talking and the money's on the floor. Her friends was like sharks,
and I'm sitting back, checking it out. They were like sharks, waiting on her to leave her
money. I'm like, "Lady you dropped your money." She didn't hear me, she wants to walk off.
They was really getting ready, I'm like "Lady! You know, you dropped your money." So you
get it from from the outside. But you also get it from the inside too. You know what I'm
saying? And the people that are surviving man, they don't get enough credit for some
survivalist degrees. It's insane. It really is. You know, I forgot what the question was. But we
got around to it!
I
Isaac Tadé 11:56
The question was about what do you see as the main causes of homelessness?
S
Sean Johnson 12:00
The main cause? I would say it's personal. I think drugs, mental, alcohol. And especially
mental, because when you're not mentally rooted, like spiritually rooted or stable... and
you hear all the time that you ain't worth anything, it's easy to believe that. You know
what I'm saying? And it brought your whole day. That's what you're getting out of it. I
always ask people, I say, "Close your eyes, and picture what you think homelesses is." You
know, and that's part of the problem there. Because what you see that's one thing. There
are like a million different ways to get into being homeless. But the way they got the
system up, there's just one way to get out. How can there be a million ways in, but one way
out? So you got all these people fighting for what they thinking is their good day, but my
good day, and your good day is two different good days. Like, your apartment that
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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making you just tickled pink and mine that made me tickled pink is two different things.
You see what I'm saying? But they got everybody in there fighting for the same thing. And
so it's like crabs in a barrel, kind of. In Minnesota, I will say that there's tons of good
people, and there are opportunities and avenues to get out. But, but I think to be totally
honest with you, just humans doing inhumane things. But the biggest ones is drugs,
alcohol and mental, you know, people that should that deserve better representation.
Let's put it like. And then, just people being honest about what their weaknesses are. You
know, probably shouldn't be drinking that if you're gonna drink that one, and we're going
to find you. You know what I'm saying? But those are the big three.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:57
It sounds like there are not systems in place to help people deal with the problems that
they have. And so they turned to drugs, alcohol, and other means, right? Which, in turn,
makes things worse, and will probably, in some cases, give them some sort of mental
illness.
S
Sean Johnson 14:18
Yes! There's a guy. I'm glad you said that. There's a guy, to get housing. Now, this is insane.
To get to the top of the housing list, he had to go to his "method-dome" thing. Which is
the quickest way to get him in the housing. He wasn't even on drugs, but after going
through the method-done thing, now he's on heroin. He's had to heroin now. But he had to
do that, that's the only way he can get on the list for housing. So now they really got him,
you know what I mean? It's like, that's insane. But at the time, the best way to quickly get
to help was go to the methadome thing. And for somebody that never even, smoked
weed. But if you see him right now, he's strung out on fucking heroin. And now that was
because he was trying to get into the housing quick. You know what I'm saying? So that's
the system. I mean, and of course, he lost the house. And not only lost the house he got an
open mark on his back now, that wasn't there at the beginning of the thing. And with the
whole drug, it's so much more easy, because that's right here, right here. And you got to
get through that, to get to where you really should be going. It takes a little bit. It really
does. It takes a little bit to get through, to stay focused. It really does. And it is sad to see,
see the light go out of people's eyes. You know, that's a tough one for me. I can't speak for
everybody, some people see it and be like, "Oh, this opportunity for me." You know what I
mean? Right now, that's insane to me, is just like with the tags. But you know, you see to
that.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:01
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
What stories or what experiences from your time being homeless have most changed your
perspective?
S
Sean Johnson 16:10
The girl at the train, you know, and I never get into the domestic. That's just one thing you
don't do. You learn that early. Like, it's the craziest shit you could do is get get in the
middle of a domestic, right? But it was...
I
Isaac Tadé 16:21
Could you tell that story?
S
Sean Johnson 16:22
Yeah I'm finna do it now. I never do that, but it was something about this dude, that was so
despicable. And I chose that word because I don't want no bleeps. But that's just it, I was
like, I said, "Why are you with this dude, right?" Because I thought I knew! She's gonna need
me to come here, I'm gonna slap him a little and throw him off the train. And then she'd
go, you know? That's me thinking I know what's best for her. But I didn't have enough to
ask her. And what she said was, "It's better to be raped by one dude as opposed to 12."
And then I looked there, she was a tiny little thing. I mean, dude, she couldn't have been
you know? She's Kate's size. But Kate's bigger in height. But after that day, I never ever
assumed anything. You know, cause I never saw that one coming in. That's her best
choice. And that's not a choice, this is America, man. And I'm not talking about something
that happened in the Kentucky Appalachians or you know what I'm saying? This was on
the train come from St. Paul. to Minneapolis. You know, that's the best choice, in America.
I mean, come on, man. What I learned from that was not to assume I know anything. It
was so humbling dude, cause I got sisters, I got a daughter, Mom. You're looking at this
girl. And it's like, wow, you know, that's her best? Talk about best day. Picture that is your
best day just to get raped once, as opposed to 12? How about not at all? You know, how
about just chilling it? But you see it, that whole thing about dreaming. I want to make sure
this get in there. Because I heard the brother, the South African brother, on the Daily Show.
He said this. I want to give him his credit. Because when he said it, I was like, "Dink!". It was
about dreams because somebody said, I forgot who he was talking to. And he said,
"People should you know, live and try to get to their dreams." And he said, "Say well, you
know, I used to think that until I realized, let's just say that all I know is this eight blocks. I
don't know to dream outside that eight blocks. I don't even know if it's possible." So the
thing is to get people to dream beyond their dreams. Because if all I know is this, I just
know to dream about that. And in my life growing up in Louisiana, that's why I love my
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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parents, my parents, my grandparents, my aunts, everybody who has something to do
with making me who I am today, the dude that's sitting across from Isaac. I'm so happy for
that because it gave me enough to understand that and I am somebody, fuck what they
say, I'm sorry about that. I deserve to live a bountiful life. And that's what tipped me off
about the thing that just happened. There's a $58,000 job. Right? And now, he didn't tell
us about that one until it was over. But now there's a $10 job. "I really want y'all to have
that." Why can't you really want me to be an American? To have something more. Yeah,
like would you want it? Cause come on, man.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:55
And who was it that offered this job?
S
Sean Johnson 19:57
The dude over there, I'm gonna say Joe. He came to speak at the Street Voices meeting.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:07
Okay.
S
Sean Johnson 20:07
He worked for the system now, you might as well say. And what I was telling him was, you
know, why are we talking about this job if it's done? You know, I already have a 10 dollar
job so that's gonna keep me where I'm at. I'm just treading tires, you know? But um, but
there are good people out there, man. I ramble a lot too, so. Next!
I
Isaac Tadé 20:35
Next! No, you bring in a lot of really good perspective. You talked about the South African,
that's Trevor Noah, right?
S
Sean Johnson 20:40
Yes! The dream thing, that's huge. Yes. But one more thing. Cause for me, Sean Johnson,
Kari's dad, that's another thing she's changed, she saved my life. Cause it's easier for me
to let Pookie think he's a man in this tiny situation that just went down at the, let's just say,
over there or at the park or at the shelter or anywhere. I'm gonna let him be big now.
Because if I deal with him, I can't be there to protect my daughter. You see what I'm
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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saying? So you go head on and say what you think. Anything short of getting in the no fly
zone, you okay with me. You're not okay, but you see what I'm saying? Yeah, you have to
let shit slide, because if I get on this here dude? I look at him as consequences. And I had
this little guy, buddy, I kid you not, he thought he was a Rottweiler. So every day, that's my
go to. When somebody got me in a place that I know that if I deal with this, I'm gonna
have consequences. The first thing I heard is buddy. I look at him and I just see buddy.
That makes it easier for me to stay focus on my big picture, which is protecting my baby
girl. You know what I'm saying? I ain't got to be doing no time just because he needs to
feel big about saying whatever he needs to say about me, that ain't true anyway. And
another thing, once you've been shot at a few times, words lose. Like, put the gun down.
You can say what you want. Why we gotta leave markers all the God damn time? You
know, call me what you want, but put the gun down. But anyway, yeah I wanted to get
that in there.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:35
Yeah, it sounds like something one of my professors told me one time he said that, you
know, there's a million things in the world that could rub you the wrong way. You can
choose the ones that actually get you.
S
Sean Johnson 22:49
Yes. Choices. I've been reading, and not only reading, but not in the journey, I want to be
able to enjoy my time. Physically. That's the whole damn thing, man. And so I'm doing this.
The brain I'm up there now, like I was just telling you about the Tenzy guy . And he got me
reading books and like I said, eating things. But the thing about that though, is I'm gonna
tell my niece and nephew. You see what I'm saying? Cause no one told me. Now I'm not
putting that against my parents. They did the best they could where they were at. You
know what I'm saying? But now that I know better, they gonna know about this. You know
what I'm saying, there are things that I found out like yesterday. What's the date?
Thursday? Like Tuesday, I wish I had known years ago. You know what I'm saying? But I
can't, "Oh, woe is me about those changes." I got to think about today and moving
forward and making it better for the ones that I know will be benefiting from that. In that
whole family thing you mentioned earlier. I can remember I hated White people, when I
met my daughter's mom. I opened up the door, I see these two white girls. I don't even like
white people I said I'm going to shut the door, she stuck her foot out there and she didn't
know she had me right there. I'm like this bitch is something! But that's how we met. And I
meant that. But as I sit here today my family, as you mentioned, is these people at the at
the shelter. Is the girl, the White girl, that was outside of target eating soup with her hands
and shit. The police over here cause they on every corner now. You know, they looking at
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the girl they don't do anything and then you know you got her compadres, they looking at
her as a victim cause she's still kind look okay. She was probably kind of hot back in the
day, if you know what I'm saying. So she kind of look okay, but the girl obviously got a
problem. Noone's helping her, you know, and it's like, come on man, this girl need help. But
I saw her. And I do a bike taxi. I'm going to tell one story and then we're going to move on.
I do the bike taxi, right? This the same girl. On the bike taxi, she had been trying to
approach me and I can tell. I didn't want to approach her because the way the dudes do
her, you know, she deserves better. So she finally came up to me, right? And so she just
knew she was gonna have to perform some kind of way. She was going to use her body.
I'm trying to tell her I just want to give her a ride. And she trying to figure out how she
gonna pay but it. You ain't got to pay for that! I take her for a little ride, she's having fun,
dah dah dah, and I bring her back right? And now she really thinks she got to pay. So now
she tried to set up how she could pay me later, right? So what I did was, I gave her $5 right
? Now she's all fucked up, cause not only is she not paying, I just gave her $5 right? And I
said just go get yourself something. I say that to say this, I hadn't seen her for quite some
time and the whole pandemic, and you hear all this crazy shit. And I'm wondering if she's
okay. And I was walking, it's been about a month now. I was walking down on Nicolette
and I see her. Now she got her hair all over her face, she's you know, she's not looking
great. She's doing. And I'm looking at her and walking slow because I want to make eye
contact, and I'm happy I see her! But I don't know where she's at, or I can't approach it. I
don't know how that's gonna go.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:35
Where her mental space is at.
S
Sean Johnson 26:37
Exactly. I'm respecting her. But I want her to know, I'm hoping she looks up, and she looks
through the glass. And she sees me. And I smiled at her, you know, not nothing, "Hey, how
you doing?" kind of thing. And she smiled. You know what I'm saying it's the little shit. I
don't know this girl. You know what I mean? But but she's human. She's somebody's
daughter. You know, I don't know her story. But I know she deserves whatever her good
day is, she deserves. And it seems like something like that happens all the time. I just
jokingly say that I wish I didn't have a conscious. Because you know, I could go ahead and
bust a couple heads, you know? Cause I'm straight!
I
Isaac Tadé 27:25
Cause sometimes you feel as though you need to do whatever you need to survive.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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S
Sean Johnson 27:30
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:30
But your conscience tells you that there might be consequences or that, you know, you will
be hurting other people if you do those things.
S
Sean Johnson 27:40
Yes.Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:40
So then you're not selfish.
S
Sean Johnson 27:42
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:43
Right.
S
Sean Johnson 27:43
And the thing is though, you see it being done by cowards. But anyway, you don't want to
judge but you gotta decifer because, you didn't do it if you're in crime, it's gonna happen
to you. So I'm not judging you. But I can't be no idiot. You are who you are dude, I gotta
respect that. But who you proclaim to be I gotta respect where you're at. Anyway, you
know that was one of those stories, man. And I feel good about that, though, you know,
and then she went on with the day, it went to get better. You know, I'm trying to find a
way to help the girl, because there's a ton of them out there. The thing that gets me the
most with the homeless thing is the people that can't defend themselves. They don't even
know they're getting screwed over.
I
Isaac Tadé 28:28
Women and children?
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S
Sean Johnson 28:30
Handicap, any mental or physical. Yeah. You know, and the cowards that take advantage
of them? Oh my God, they should separate them, dude. She shouldn't be by him. Yeah, she
shouldn't be by her. You know what I'm saying, it's insane. But then they say, "Well, we're
just putting them in a place." Well, they're not out in the cold, but she probably better out
in the cold than with the shit that's going on in there. It's one thing to take the soul away.
That goes back to seeing that light go out of their eyes. That's a horrible thing, dude. And,
yeah, so it's a ton of that. And it's not a hard fix. Just separate them and put somebody in
there to, you know? But I've been reading a lot, and them Ted Talks. I've been trying to, I
want the whole damn thing. And but not only do I want it for me, I want it for my family,
that's that girl. It's even the dude that was getting the damn tags. You know, he in there
too. That's that crazy ass uncle that at the end of the barbecue, everybody want to kick
you his ass. You know what I'm saying? But he's still...
I
Isaac Tadé 29:43
He's somebody's uncle.
S
Sean Johnson 29:44
Yes. Exactly. Exactly. And see people don't get that. That just rolled off of you. But that
ain't something you get at school. You know what I'm saying? So when you come at me
with, "You gotta have a bachelors to..." That whole shit that got me out of a job, they
paying somebody to be me. But you gonna bribe me with ten dollars?
I
Isaac Tadé 30:08
Right.
S
Sean Johnson 30:09
And they tell me to trust you. But anyway. And that dentist thing. Dude! That's huge.
People ain't got no teeth.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:22
That was gonna be one of my next questions, so that's a smooth transition. I was gonna
ask you! People ain't got no teeth, man. So what, has been your experience? What is, you
know, I'm trying to be a dentist. What are some of the things that you've seen, some of the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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problems that can be addressed by dentists on the streets. What has been your
experience with homelessness and like dental health?
S
Sean Johnson 31:04
See the thing with like dental health, like all of the things. See dental health shouldn't be
like, an extra special thing. Having teeth, you know, being able to see, the basic things
shouldn't be like extra curricular shit, you know what I mean? And so people don't have
time to think about that. Let's just say for me as an example. I gotta get to a dentist. I got
three problems in my mouth that I know I got, I need to get to a dentist, right? Definitely,
absolutely no teeth. But if your struggle is to get something to eat, I can't work if it's a
green leafy. I just got to get something in my stomach. So I ain't got time to worry about it,
this tooth.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:51
There's a hierarchy of needs.
S
Sean Johnson 31:52
Yes! Priorities. Or like what I'm trying to say is, when you're struggling like that, you have
to remember everybody's basement and cheiling is different. You know what I'm saying?
So, the teeth thing. For me, that's huge. I can remember when I was young, and I would get
into fights. That's my first thought I gotta get to him before he knock one of my teeth out!
But people don't even have time to think about that. Because if you're getting raped, 12
times... I had a girl. Now dude, I'm not bragging, I'm just telling her story. I met her. This is
how she introduced herself to me, right? She didn't tell her name. She says, "I don't have
molars, and I don't have a gag reflex."
I
Isaac Tadé 32:56
I know where you're going with this. What was her story?
S
Sean Johnson 32:57
Like what do you say to that? But then, and I'm like, what's your name? But her story. Oh,
my God. Her story was, she was gang raped. When she was like 13 in one of the cities,
North. Not in the city, but in one of them towns, but whatever. And no one believed her.
And that was her deal. You know, and then so she was all fucked up. No one believed her
even, her family. So she ended up coming down here. She got hooked up with Mexico
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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dude, she ended living five year down in Guatemala, or somewhere down in Mexico.
When I met her I thought she was a Mexican. But she's actually native.
I
Isaac Tadé 33:57
Okay.
S
Sean Johnson 33:58
She was actually native, right? Cause I met her with a crazy dude. No, it was just one of
those nights with this insane dude, remind me to tell you about him. So he goes to this
place, right? Young, white girl. Now she's got the bachelor's degree from the University of
Minnesota, big old thing on the wall, but she's smoking and so dude goes in there right?
I
Isaac Tadé 34:19
Smoking what?
S
Sean Johnson 34:21
I want to say meth. But everything's in there. Math, crack, if you name it is in there. Right?
And so dude goes in there. As I'm walking in, the girl, this is the first time we ever saw
eachother. She says some Spanish. She's knows her dude is a fucking animal. When I say
animal. Yeah, he's an animal.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:38
The guy that she was with.
S
Sean Johnson 34:40
No, the guy that I was with.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:41
Oh
S
Sean Johnson 34:41
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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That guy I came in with. They take me to his friend's house. They don't want him there.
Until now that they hooked, not they good. But anyway. So the next time I saw her that's
when she did that, like the gag reflex, thing and I'm thinking, "I'm okay."
I
Isaac Tadé 35:00
I'm straight!
S
Sean Johnson 35:03
I'm good, so now we're talking right? And noone had ever done that. Yet, but that's when I
heard the story. That just was horrible man. And she had a son, I want to say, from it. That
was another thing. Yes! Her son was from it, so everytime she's looking at him...That is a
horrible story, though. That's why you guys can't judge people, man. And she was smart
too. Once she talked to you gotta, once you broke through and talked she was smarter
than shit, you know. But her story was just crazy. And she had a chip in her. She was being
sold. Yes. She was being sold. They knew where she was at 24 seven. That's not no
conspiracy, she showed the shit to me, right up under her skin. So she talking about
trafficking. Oh, yeah. She was that, you know. It was just horrible. I still didn't get her name,
you know? But yes, that was bad. But the dude he raped this girl. This woman. Right? His
story is, he went to the penitentiary. And he was the one that was planting her here. He
didn't actually didn't have a good time in penitentiary. You know what I'm saying? Yeah,
and it fucked his head up. So out here, he just burned up, because the things he do to
women is just... And then once I realized who he, you know, who he kept reminding me of?
Do you remember Derrick Sharper? The Green Bay Packers guy?
I
Isaac Tadé 37:09
Yeah.
S
Sean Johnson 37:10
Yeah, he was kind of like that. You'd never think that Derrick Sharper was running around
raping and all that. You know, he just didn't fit the profile. But once you got to know
him...No way, there's nothing this dude won't do. But it was because of what had
happened to him in a penitentiary. And he actually got charged with a rape. And I just
saw him, this past summer. He had been back to the penitentiary. So he kind of got his.
But yeah, I don't know what happened. The last time I saw her, she was sitting up on Park
right off of Park and about 24. But yeah, there is just so many stories like that. And he's just
sad...But it's just that kind of severity. Like I say the women, the kids, the mentally and
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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physically. And it's got this one dude. I don't know his deal. But he's in a wheelchair, he's
probably up there right now on Hennepin. He sits in his chair all the time, and he gets
money from somewhere. Whatever, his deal is, a check will come. And his friends man,
they just feed this dude crack. But he can't move, they hold it. He can't even, nothing's
working. You know? And I'm like, dude, those aren't your friend. He had to dude laying in
the snow, in his vomit. And I'm like, I tried to give him a glove, I don't know, these guys, it's
some Somali dudes. And they laugh and I'm like, dude, these are not your friends. Cause I
don't even know you. And you're laying in vomit. Yeah, ain't got no shoes on. Got no
gloves on. I gave him the gloves. But they like, "Just let him stay there", I'm like come on,
man. You just can't. So I gave him the glove. And I told you these are not your friends. I
don't give a fuck what they said. It was cold as shit.
I
Isaac Tadé 39:22
I guess to return back to the question. What advice would you give me as a future dentist,
right? That I can best serve people who have experienced homelessness. What advice
would you give to me?
S
Sean Johnson 39:40
To you? You know, first of all understand that it's a need. Oh my god, dude, it's insane. And
I'm talking about, I think we had to come up with a way to to learn. To a lot of people like I
said, that ain't even a thought. Dude you aint about 20 some years old, but you got the
meth thing. That'll mess the teeth up. And then you just got the average Joe, you know,
they they take care of their teeth. And I couldn't go to dentist till I was 21, but I brush my
teeth. You know what I'm saying? But I actually went to a dentist at 21 years old. I did a
good enough jobs and I know that I should be going to a dentist. But it's not on their list.
It's just not, because when this dude got mad, he got mad at me. We ordered a sandwich
together and I ate mine. He got mad, I'm like dude, I got teeth. You don't have no teeth,
that's why it's taking you longer! But you know, the thing is, figure out a way to let them
know they deserve to have teeth. See that's the thing. They just so happy, that's not a
luxury. It's okay to have teeth! It's okay to want to smile. No, it's okay. The natural things
that teeth do, they don't think about them, like a nice smile. You can actually eat your
food!
I
Isaac Tadé 41:14
Or even speak!
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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S
Sean Johnson 41:15
Yeah, yes. Without spitting on you. But it's those little things. I mean, you have to come at
them in a way to where they don't feel less than. Cause they get enough of that.You know
what I'm saying?
I
Isaac Tadé 41:27
Don't come at people in a way. That's like condescending.
S
Sean Johnson 41:31
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:32
Or, to put myself in a position above you.
S
Sean Johnson 41:35
Yes. And see that happens. And then they shut down.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:39
Yeah
S
Sean Johnson 41:39
That's what happens.
I
Isaac Tadé 41:40
And then they won't ever see a dentist again.
S
Sean Johnson 41:42
No, because they looking for a reason to not see you. They come into it not wanting to
like you. Then once you give them that one, well you just, you just validated what I know to
be true, even though I have no research on it at all. And it's the best thing that could have
happened to me. And people don't realize how big certain little things are. And the timing
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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of it. You can say the smallest thing to the wrong person at the wrong time...and that's
(Hurricane) Katrina. People don't realize that. And I've seen that. Yeah. People don't realize
the power words. For me that's just like with when I first met Kate. I didn't trust Kate. And
she'll tell you that. She just straight up. It took her like...
I
Isaac Tadé 42:36
A couple years, right?
S
Sean Johnson 42:37
She'll say that's right. But it was some time because by the time I met Kate, I had been in it
for like two years. And I just got tired of people. Because they had a badge on. And then
went to school, doing whatever they do for shits and giggles, and to feel good about
themselves. This whole, shit, right? But they treat me like shit. And, "you should just be
happy that they're there. I'm gonna treat you like shit. But you ain't shit anyway. So you
should be happy that I ain't treat you like worse shit." You see what I'm saying? So I assume
that that's where they're coming from.
I
Isaac Tadé 43:11
From your prior experience.
S
Sean Johnson 43:12
Yes, but I don't stay there. I don't treat them that way. But what I do is I give them a
chance to prove that they're not that. I don't just go into it to think just cause you got that
little thing on, that you're a good person. Now once you prove you a good person, we
could you know, because I've been out I've been I didn't get been woken up. Alvarez say,
Steven. Do cussing me out. It's during the morning. He cussing me out calling me ali ne
and I asked him I'm like, Man, you know, why you cussing me? Yeah. Did you look beyond
what you go do about it? Dude, it's minus 20 degrees outside. You know what's really
going on here, man. But I'm thinking I ain't saying anything. Because, you know, I know
what's going on. But But can I go to sleep now? Oh, you ain't gonna do what you're gonna
do. You know, be outside. I could go to sleep or be ready to just be inside or outside. You
know? So there's no real choice here to go ahead and finish call me what you don't call
me. Tomorrow. Makai passenger shall do nothing. But I'm gonna call you Pachamama do
my part because guess what you should do and do wake up in the morning trying to get
you kicked out. And he's getting paid to be there. But, but it's just it's like a like I say that's
why they should get more credit for survivalists day because you get hit from our Lord.
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And then you hit yourself. You know what I'm saying? You hit the gym knocked out
yourself and see, that's another thing. And the biggest thing man is is getting people to
actually look in the mirror. The old Michael Jackson thing, the dude in the mirror,
I
Isaac Tadé 44:48
the man in the mirror
S
Sean Johnson 44:48
you know, too many people don't want to look at him, that's why you're up in my mirror.
You see what I'm saying? You know, if you will be in yoga, you'd be so busy, you won't even
notice. You know what I'm saying? I got so much hate in this mirror, that I ain't got time for
that. You know, and, and there are people waiting on me to get this shit, right.
I
Isaac Tadé 45:19
Your people who depend on you?
S
Sean Johnson 45:21
Yes. And that's another thing they they don't see homeless people thinking or having any
value. Like, another story, over at Higher Ground in St. Paul. I'm working and making like
150 to 200 a day. So I'm getting about this. I come to these checks and I'm good. And so
they saw me stacking the locker, dude I'm getting ready to make a move. I got it all. And
something went down. And they fixing kick me out, I say cool. I got one question. What
about my stuff in my locker? Cause I had to go to work that day. It's 5:30 in the morning,
right? I have no problem not coming back here. But do I need to take my stuff to work
with me? Or is it gonna be okay? They say I got 36 hours, right? So I leave. And then I come
over here to St. Paul and Kate, another Kate, hooks me up at St. Stephen's right. So I call
them from the library downtown. So it's like 5:30 that same day. "Well, this is Seann
coming to get my stuff." They put me on hold. I knew something was wrong right there.
They stolen all of it. They told me they threw it away. I'm like, "Well what garbage can did
you throw it in?" Because I knew the garbage didn't run that day. I knew that garbage
didn't run. So I can just go get it. They say, "Oh, no, you can't do that." "What do you mean
I can't do it. You threw it out. It was in the garbage. I go get mine." But they stole my stuff
and in stealing my stuff...See they were stealing the jeans, the clipper all that stuff, but
they threw away my pictures. The picture of my dad when he was still healthy, vibrant.
Yeah. And me I was 23 in that picture, in the backyard that I grew up in. That picture told
like 100 years of my childhood, and see that was a legacy pitcture for Kari. Because by the
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time Kari came around, my dad had dementia. I wished she could see him... You know, you
know what I mean?
I
Isaac Tadé 47:17
In that family barbecue picture.
S
Sean Johnson 47:19
Yes. Yeah. But you know, they have all those, fryers now?
I
Isaac Tadé 47:25
Air fryers?
S
Sean Johnson 47:26
Yes. My dad had a beer keg. Cut off, with a torch under it.
I
Isaac Tadé 47:35
He made his own.
S
Sean Johnson 47:36
With a clothes hanger, yes! That was in that picture. You know what I'm saying? And they
just threw my shit away, man. I had a passport in there to travel. And I had two empty
pages. And I just wanted so much to fill that damn thing. They do that in the clothes and
all that stuff. That I mean, I'm saying I was pissed about that. But it wasn't but it could be
replaced. That pictures gone.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:02
those pictures can't be replaced.
S
Sean Johnson 48:04
You know, what I'm saying? And then she is telling me this, Mr. Johnson we can't do
anything. You know? And then you flip it because I already know what was in there, you
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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know what I'm saying? But they just feel like you just don't have anything of value and
you're not a value. And whatever happens happens, you know, shake it off and keep you
I
Isaac Tadé 48:27
so going. Yeah, going in to a healthcare profession. Being mindful of First of all, what
words I use, how I approach people to not be condescending, and being respectful of their
things, their appearances, their journey.
S
Sean Johnson 48:47
Yes, just because you see, I see Isaac at whatever age you are right now. I don't know what
it took for you to get there. You know what, I don't know what happened to you last week
or you know what I'm saying? Or whatever you use that you don't say it or you know it
could have been great day it could have been some facility I don't know. But for me to
look at you now and assume that's the worst thing that happens with a Canadian
assuming you don't mean oh he gotta be this or he must be that or you know and all this
Oh shit. I don't have people like leave money out for me to take it so the guy you know
don't come home man. I mean it's just but the thing is if it be genuine with people cause
they see that fake shit you know they really get a greater Miss kudos or much less than a
mile away. But just be be open to know that they're human and in being human well and
invaluable man no big me's and little you and you know none of that. Just realize that
they're human. And there's a story ready when you really good at it. Can you get to the
story? You see what I'm saying? Cuz cuz if you if you shut him up at a beat, you never
really know what you did. You can sit there talk to him for an hour and not even know who
you talk. too, once you get beyond the way they are feeling they can talk to you talk for
five minutes. You know everything. You see what I'm saying? There's a big difference if you
want them to feel at ease and it just when they could just relax and not be on gold trust
you. Yes. Because if you don't God, I'll bet you, you know, you let you in here because you
don't do enough people hitting me. So if I can force a missile to keep you at arm's length
until I know you ain't gonna stab me in the back. And once you get back then do what you
want to do. You know? And so that's what she talked about. It might have seemed like, I
didn't need to make sure you have like acting crazy. We all do say you know me, but but it
will make them get to the store. To once you get to the story. That's the family. That's why
I say that's what my family brothers St. pontotoc to do. But my family I think girl, I mean,
she like a third cousin our you know what I mean? She only my family? Yeah, you know
what I'm saying? And even the uncle that we know, we got to get rid of. We gotta cut him
out for before Pyro round to go but he's still but you know, he's still family. And that's
tough sometimes. No, it really is when you hungry. He just told us your way. And you know
you better Yeah, you know, or you could take it from him. You know, but but you got to be
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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patient and stay within your roots. And hopefully you got good to see you don't blow you
over. You know what, it's a really incredible I woke and I had dude standing on me with a
knife. Yes. And the same dude. It was it was like it was so damn cold. I had a park around
and freezing my ass he dropped he up on the ramp by the Radisson in the Marriott right
there. Don't turn. Yes. And that bitch right there. I'm gonna do you want to get on this bus.
I got it. bus token we just get on the bus and warm up. Get into police pull up. This guy. We
got him. So I just take our wallet. Then I turn around, they sent him back on the bitch and
left him. Now that same dude, he's so drunk. I remember that. That same dude, like pretty
much later, I wake up he is over me with a knife. And I'm looking at grabbing right in a
pinup, you know, so I gotta grab him in the knife. And I pick him up to the front. The first
thing he asked me, What did I do? I was asleep. What about? What about I will sleep? in it.
There are good staff too, though. Don't get me wrong. And from my side of it. You I always
have whatever they do. I have to be true to me because I need this to work. You know, you
go home with your job. And you Oh, I had a bad day at work. But your bad day won't be
that good. Send me back six months, I need this to work not have been the guy. Let's just
say you got a you got a service that I really need to get to my next step right? to do
before me just cuss you out and spit on you? Know, I mix right? I still need you to be you
know what I'm saying? And I understand that's tough. You know, so I can't I can't expect
you to not have a little human in you right now. So I got to come in and get your laugh.
You know, man, can I still need what I need? But see people that ain't got their skill set. I
mean, I bet she just knew she just got spit on. You know what I mean? You gotta respect
the fact that she's human, or he or whatever. You know what I'm saying? And I get that,
because it can be challenging. Trust me, I get that. However, I need my knees. Oh, are you
okay? Do you know what I'm saying? But not everybody got this skill set. So they're going
to get knotted up. They didn't get what they need. And they're going to go go back. Now
they said back another six seven months is getting hit all kinds of ways. And if you ain't
got rules, he's gonna blow you. Oh, yeah. Yeah. Oh, somebody's standing in the gap. See
that's the thing. And what another thing that really pisses me off the people that's
supposed to be standing in the gap, just getting paid to stand in the gap. We're just there.
And they know what to say. And it's like, come on, man. Really? And that's another thing
that's that's just horrible when you said like the guy but he's a girl some shoes, right? She's,
she's, she's and she's while I'm doing the bike thing. I had a good friend Friend. I make
money. So so I'd be alone. Cuz my family, you know, and I see this girl. I see. I see you guys
we're about to laugh. And so I get her. As a matter of fact, I'm back. I'm taking it and
trying to get some shoes, right. And then I'm gonna let her in. And I know she's getting a
shoe. That's why she ain't got no damn shoes on, but had been so long. They knew me and
told them you know, so I went on at bought shoes. I was gonna spend 25 and she found
stuff for 20 And I guess he tried to give me the five bucks. And I'll just keep that, you know,
and, you know, I don't know that you're gonna do it, but you know, just just consider that,
you know, some you can do, let's stuff like that. I don't have any god damn money, but I
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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had enough to where, you know, I could be a blessing to her. You know, Sam because in
people with the money you're looking at it, you know, it's like come on man but
I
Isaac Tadé 55:24
it just humanizing experiences
S
Sean Johnson 55:27
all the time. Cuz they're human man. What gets me is the women that think that the lights
go you know and and they just think that their take took their their self worth knowing like
the girl that she didn't know she has to do this one time. I hate somebody gotta get paid
all kinds of shit on the bike right? And he's got this girl and I'm gonna give it to give it to
her. I forgot what it was, but I couldn't use it right? And I'm gonna give it to you better as I
turn like that, dude, I'm not exaggerating at all. As I turned to get you're gonna find it
right. And as I turn around, she's naked. And this is the sidewalk. She like two feet off the
sidewalk. Now, what are you doing? I don't know. You don't have to do anything. But first
of all, how did how did you get here?
I
Isaac Tadé 56:24
That's what I'm thinking.
S
Sean Johnson 56:27
But she just thought that no one could be nice to her. Without taking her whole goddamn
soul. In that sad man. Yes. Yeah. But I gave it to her.
I
Isaac Tadé 56:41
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. Um, here's a big one. And of course, if you feel you
know, uncomfortable with any questions or whatever, go for it. Go for it. Um, I was just
gonna ask, what role does race and racism play in homelessness?
S
Sean Johnson 56:59
For me, as a black man, I think it's it's America. You know, so it's got to be worse. And the
darker you are, you know, say However, what I've noticed is, is less race than it is
economic. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, we don't get a little bit worse. But I still think
that the the women and the handicap, and the kids get the worst of everything. Cuz for
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me, even though I'm black, and you may not like me. Yes, sir. She's just not gonna do to
me. You know, I'm, that's not gonna happen. But there are people out there that they
came like to the girl getting ready to attend. They can't say no.
I
Isaac Tadé 57:48
You know what I mean? So and you don't think you'd be in that position? Because your
male?
S
Sean Johnson 57:52
Your hell yeah, I know. I'm not. I'm gonna go to the gym when I leave here. You don't say
they pick it. That's what a fucking coward. They pick and choose who they gonna be King
Kong around, you know, King Kong King Kong all the time. You know what I'm saying? So
why can't you be King Kong now? But you can be King Kong with her. I would love what
you don't say. Because King Kong I mean, romance. But you know, he gonna do what he
do
I
Isaac Tadé 58:23
Rght.
S
Sean Johnson 58:23
He didn't do it when when it's when it's beneficial. He can do it all the goddamn time. So
that's that's another thing, man is this. Is this bad, man? I don't know. But but the race
thing is America. So so but but with this, you know, is is more of a handicap and the
women and the kids. That's just me though.
I
Isaac Tadé 58:47
That's what you see.
S
Sean Johnson 58:47
Yeah. Good. Good. Good. Good. get worse. Okay. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 58:52
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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Thank you. Um, how would you describe your spirituality?
S
Sean Johnson 58:56
saving me. You really is me because that's what I see. I know. I'm going to live an
abundant life. But in that, that service. You know what I'm saying? And that's because the
moment I was a mama was right here, not what she's writing right now. Boy, but the thing
is, though, like when I was young, she just dragged me to church. My dad didn't go if dad
didn't go, why did I have to go, that's a woman thing, you know, but I went to church,
kicking and screaming. But what happened is, when I was in there, he got into me. You
know what I'm saying? And I know that when I had that cancer piece, like my
grandmother when she was old, and she just beat up praying all the time, and I'm like, you
know, go home and pray. And so, you know, like I said, I go to church twice, twice on
Sundays. You know, because I know that but the grace of God, I am alive. You know what
I'm saying? Again, I've been times where I probably shouldn't have made it out of some of
the places. You know what I'm saying? And I, I believe in prayer. You know what I say? cuz
I've seen fruit from it. You know what I'm saying? So that's what keeps me not doing taking
the shirt, it keeps you grounded, because I understand how to race is really one. And I
understand that. And so when I see good people, I sponge off because even though I joke
about how my friend is super hot, which she is, she's so smart. But you know what I'm
saying because of her. You know, I eat different. I take care of my whole advocate when I
told her I said, Go I'm an illusion. You know, you're the real thing. I need to get the real
thing cuz cuz delusion go play out a little bit here. But for me, I want the real thing. And
that's what I see in you is man, she got eaten and you know, I'm sorry that right now cuz I
met her yesterday. But But you know, and, and Kates are good. But I'm around good
people like that. And they did. They went Thursday, Tuesday, I went over to turn over.
Northeast, right? I'm going for 10 minutes. I got to do. But when I get around good, people
just go to chopping it up. It is two hours later. But you know what I'm saying? Right? But
because of the pandemic, and when you round when I'm around good people, the time
just, you know, me. And I told her that I was coming in for 10 minutes, you know, and here
it is, you know, two hours later putting it on, I gotta go. You know, but it's just, I just like
being around people, especially when you just happen to see people getting through.
Especially when you hear all this deaf and this and that. Yeah, you just happen to see
people still around man and his family to me. You know, it really is. I don't say that. You
know, casually or any of that cuz that girl, man, that ain't gonna say that was the only
smile she had that day. But no, she got that one smile that day. You know what I mean?
And she deserve a smile, man. Come on, do this. Come on. But little things like that, you
know, and I cry too damn much, man. Picture me check this out. So me, right. And I'm at
the library and I'm looking at them and, you know, they look at me, you know, but I cry
that it has to do with my spirituality, my my grandmother and my, yes. You know, they see
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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me crying they like but I'm okay with that. Because I understand. In the long run, we
should cry. I mean, if you make you feel like crap, you know, you got to express yourself.
But but but for me talking about the brain and the heart and the body stress.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:02:58
All that?
S
Sean Johnson 1:02:58
Yeah. As he was was I realized I won't be able to enjoy my life, but I don't have one. I got it.
I got all that shit in there, dude in the mirror. You see what I'm saying? Yeah. If you've been
honest with him, you gotta let things go. And I had a cousin. Dude, he was in here for 10
years. I want to hurt is really, really, really bad. Because what he did is tell me just pray for
him every day. So let me pray for him. Everything's pretty good things for him every day.
Even if you don't mean it, do it every day. Then over time, it'll it'll become it'll become
natural. Yeah. And then one day, I was walking with a friend of mine, a family member of
mine. And he drove by. And I went over and we faked like we go first cousin flip on the
same plane again. Anyway, we did the whole Hey, how you doing a senior while Day bla
bla bla. And then he left and I left. And it wasn't until me and Cliff, I called me Hearld,
walked up another two blocks that I realized the whole lot. We was talking knocking him
out of dragging him out of the car never crossed my mind. You know what I mean? So it
works, you know? And so, we it took 10 years to get there. Okay, dude, I will lose sleep. I
will Oh, you know, you know, but she'd said that. And so, I tried. I understand. Philosophy
guy over St. Thomas says 10% things, you know, 10% things, you know, you don't know,
but it's 80% that you don't even know you don't know it. So I read it when he said that it
was and I thought I was you know 80% I don't even know I don't know. But once you look
at life like that, is easier. You know, I mean, to to get by and to let things go and to not
have to be right and, and to see misery in and call it what it is and if you can help be
helpful to me. But that's the whole spiritual piece but it is at 5:30 tonight. It's Thursday,
right? Yeah. Cuz I do that because it's good people there. And it's a spiritual fight. You
know what I mean? If you ain't got your ship straight they ain't playing games you know,
they whooping ass and taking name. So what you want to do so but that's what I do. I
cannot do what it takes to gas up my tank. So why would I go to this train is trying to
Super she's super hot but why would I go to her to get my body right in my brain a right
my teeth you know
I
Isaac Tadé 1:05:39
if your spirit a right?
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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S
Sean Johnson 1:05:40
yes. And then I can go to lay again see this girl that just made this just me you know just a
little little something different give her the joiner life you know me? But that's what it is
though. No, that's that's what we are. Oh, I see people forget that. Because we were made
for that. You know you ain't made to see these girls eating like that and see the Oh, that's
an opportunity to see and this guy gives me about to do to get the apartment. They know
these girls know what you're doing. And when I'm wanting to get one. So chill here Tinker
there. But for the price of being warm. Yeah, you take her soul. Let her stay cold. You know
what I mean? Leave the girl alone! No, man. I mean, come on. But to get there. And I do
do pieces, you know. You know but but then again, he somebody you know, but it
sometimes it gets tough for me to want to treat him right. You know what I'm saying?
Yeah, I'm gonna pray for you tomorrow, but for the day, I think I might want whoop you,
you know, you might need as well. Yeah, but but you see it all the time. Yeah, you can see
me walking around like balls, you know, like King Kong. Yeah, exactly. It's like, come on,
man. Too much of that. Yeah, that goes back to the women and kids you know me and
handicap? You know?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:07:01
Yeah. But you'd say your spirituality is centered around good people.
S
Sean Johnson 1:07:06
Yeah, okay, go worse group. I know God worst Kates an angel. She literally is the woman
I'm gonna go to the night. Oh, that was the one is two ladies and a brother. They're
angels. You know, they really are. And I know for me, God works through people. And to
some people, I'm an angel. You know, I try not to say things like that. Because I don't want
to come across you know, it's not about me. Yeah. Cuz this whole thing we do it. You
know, I'm gonna be okay. Trust me on it. However, I need to make sure that she at least
got a shot in case anybody's talking for her. You know, I mean, they really not. In any
nobody talks about a girl that's getting raped by one as opposed to 12 or the kid. Yeah,
and that's a whole nother You know, that's a whole nother level. You know what I mean?
But or the handicapped do that getting out as many when you get a fainted I like it. And I
look one time, it was all fucking 20s, I am like dude put your money in your pocket. You
know, here's what happens with me, right? When I'm walking down the street people
could just do and I'm not saying this to pat myself on the back. But there will be a dude
way across the way Hey, Shawn, this my friend. what he's doing is he's telling the people
around him if you fuck with me you know, so what? I'll do it I notice what he's doing. So I'll
go over it I you know, I let them know. Yeah, you know this, we like that. You know what I
am saying? So he has a piece? But he shouldn't have to do that. If you're a gorilla with
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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him. big gorilla with me. But he's not a gorilla just just about being any god damn gorilla.
But it's I get that a lot you know God walking with this lady. What does he like one old
lady that's one of the good and rely on some bullshit. She noticed that right? That's why
that's why you have to you know, yeah, cuz she's wasting of time. We need good people
that do a good day. Don't bullshit. I gotta wait, you know? Cuz she ain't got time for you to
figure out that she needs you to see her as human. She need people see what she is told.
You see, okay, they see me boom. Not Okay, maybe she did something that just you no, no
one could do anything to you know mean to deserve to be treated like that man. Or you
know, and sometimes you know, it's tough man but I could look in the mirror like I was
telling you earlier the day my phone rung and use that look at no matter No, no and that's
it but but but I don't know don't know mo so my phone like I just answer it. You know what
I'm saying? Could I know anybody like me? You know, and I don't know. You know me. But
it's a piece that come with it because like for the last quite a few years. You have New
Year's Eve. Everybody go around what you want some peace that's it? you can ask me
right now we're in a bar you got you know you got I want some with peace we could have
a good day we you know, but if he got no peace. That's how you do you just said you
wanted a big booty girl you know, but you got peace who knows what's around? Peace
man. Yeah, you know?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:10:42
That's, that's beautiful. Um, thank you for sharing that. How would you? How would you
say that the covid 19 pandemic has affected you.
S
Sean Johnson 1:10:53
It made me a better person.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:10:54
Really?
S
Sean Johnson 1:10:55
Dude, I haven't had a cold. I shouldn't say that. But it made me because of that, guess
what I'm reading best when I'm reading them two hours a night now. You know, I said,
That's why I do yoga as much as I do now. That's why, you know, I'm, I'm in tune to, I've
had time to look in the mirror. You know what I'm saying it and actually, what's what's
really going on here? Cuz this shit doesn't last forever? You know, says how do you really
want this game to play out? You know, but it also led me to see the inhumane more of the
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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humaneness of people to you know what I'm saying? And like I say, I took the virus shot.
Everything in me told me not to do that. You know what I'm saying? It really did cuz I don't
trust the system at all. I just don't I mean, rightfully so. Yeah. You know, and so but but like
I said, cuz I had the cancer. I don't know, like five nurses like Kate, I can name five, boom,
boom, boom, and they all say the same thing. You know, and, and they will when they
can, you know? And so on that note, why would I not? Why would I not listen to girl that's
got these things behind her name, and Tuskegee. I understand it went down, you know,
but because of slavery. I mean, I can't get a job today. I mean, we could live well, what
does that stop at? You know what I'm saying? At some point, you gotta, you know, and we
looked at the same thing, and just came up with a different conclusion, but I'm not selling
people on or not selling people on it. But for me, man, we gotta take you know, and so
and that's just the way that is, you know, but um, yes. It really is. Yeah. What was the
question?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:12:41
How's the covid 19 pandemic affected you?
S
Sean Johnson 1:12:45
Now, so I got I got to see a lot of good people. You know what I'm saying? I got a lot of
good people. I went in to get a cigarette, right. And I felt these things right here, right. And
wants to brother from the Black Panther die. Yeah, me checking everything. The actor
when he got with it, oh, yeah. Yeah. Chadwick Boseman, he when he died, I'm gonna go
get everything out. You know. And so as I'm doing that, I had this thing here where they
had to put it put the ultrasound jelly on. So I go down to hcmc and a girl, she just so she
does a jelly thing. And she's typing, you know, on the computer, and she's close to me is,
you know, and this was earlier with the viruses yet and I'm thinking, this girl put her life in
danger. You know what I mean? To see if I'm okay. And that that and I didn't realize that
until I was in that moment. That nurses and doctors, you know, it's one thing in that case,
just like with the homeless, you hear it, but to actually see it in there. And when it was over,
God jokingly said, well, you don't go into rob a bank or I'm going to Target but if you if I
got this, I'm gonna wrap my glove, you know? So you know, it never came because she she
didn't they didn't she took the results to the doctor, whatever she says she's coming back.
I say, Well, shit, am I robbing the bank or not? You know? And they say, Well, I can't tell you
that but you know if they look good from what I can tell you that's what I told him that
well, I just want to say that I appreciate what you do. You know what I'm saying? Imagine
that she knew danger of going to work every day. Yeah, she don't know me. You know any
of these people in in in the hallway waiting or whatever their waiting room? Yeah. You
know what I mean? But then she just you know, she just casually but then it then it made
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her day and, you know, our, but yeah, no one has ever said. But it's little, but it's the little
things that can make a person they or as I said earlier is a little bit that can actually
break. Yeah. So choose, I choose my words to be inspiring or helpful because even when
dude I could have said a whole bunch of things. I knew what he was doing, as he said that
robbing Kate, your robbing my friend. You know what I'm saying? But so I tell what I said
was I say dude has nothing, nothing to do with a tag. And if you hurt me was still in it Get
the hell out of him. Drag you and that's what I was saying there. Because you're robbing
my friend. And you're robbing my family that need that. You know, but but you have to be
politically but he did at least got but it but it was so full. We'll be here to Monday in a
regular way. I don't know if you got to laught. But I like that you do that dental thing? No.
Because even with me, cuz I saw the thing that got me my cousin had some shitty teeth.
And every time I saw him, I go brush my teeth, you know? But But people don't think about
them. And like I said, it's just one of those things that they So focus on just not getting
raped or getting kicked out of the crib in the morning. Just got down. Somebody had been
grinding since yesterday. So so the things that will make their quality of life better. like to
eat the burger or to not have to. But Dude, you walk around. Get that chip. Yeah. You see
that on people that? You're way too young? for that? Yeah, you know what I'm saying?
Right. But I can't judge because maybe the choices that you had to make and the choices
I had to make it you know, it's you know, Grand Canyon, as opposed to you know, that the
hill over there? You know, and that's why I don't I try not to judge. But you get to see it all.
You really do. So I was I did. But it was awful. So, you know, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:17:16
You talked about this a little bit already. But like, what are you most proud of?
S
Sean Johnson 1:17:21
Me? That I am still I was able to as we sit here today, on the 18th I can honestly look
myself in the mirror and know that I didn't bring any extra undue harm to people. Why
don't you just go knock that out, too. Don't speak for me. You know, say this girl needs a
hug. Hug and to be left alone? To me, can you put it in a mouth or anywhere? I She needs
a fucking hug and to be left alone. You know? And so I can honestly say that. And as a
human, you know, I understand that I was open enough. And when it's open enough, I
mean, spiritually, mentally, socially, to see people as people as opposed to them that us
down less than, you know what I mean? That that has something so easy to do now. You
know, and like I say, My family has expanded, you know, so I'm most proud of the fact that
I'm kind of okay, with the way I'm still looking at people and see them as human and if I
can help them I do. And I can walk around town anywhere. And I'm okay. And if no matter
what it is, it's a good thing. You know what I mean? And I'm proud of that because some
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of them I just want them to trust All right, this dude now as I come into the house I see
three guns I say okay. I ain't have a gun. So if something go down. Now, he's a gang
member with these guys. Were in the game, right?
I
Isaac Tadé 1:19:15
When was this?
S
Sean Johnson 1:19:18
it's about seven months ago. Okay. And some go down. This is my hook and put his hands
on me. He grabbed grabbed my shirt. I get him off. I said are you fucking serious dude, but
I'm sorry three guns, right? Guess who got no gun. That would be me. So just leave. The
next day. I got my bike taxi right I roll the phone. Don't you ever think about putting your
hands on me again? He beat me up and I but he but he grabbed me in front of his boss. Is
he gonna do all this shit to me on the street. He was saying I'm thinking in my mind, you're
going to get the fuck out his house. The next day I roll up on him. And he looked up, he see
me now and I tend to dislike this. I say you had a lot of gusto last night, but if you ever
tried to shit again, we don't have a problem. Now, he didn't expect it. But I will say this
about him, though. He understood that this could go either way. But it ended up going the
right way. Because he respected the fact that I came at him like that. You see what I'm
saying? And and even after that, I don't I still you still out here. But I walked up on him
right. Now he didn't have a clue. He was sitting in a bus stop. You know, I'm still thinking
that I see too many people get hurt, just let it slide. And then I'm looking at it right. And
you don't have a clue. I'm here today. He don't have a clue. Now know what he was on
next time. But I'm standing there looking at anything. If I do this. Then the first day
popped into my mind was when I heard that just to my brother. You got 289 months?
Yeah. And that popped into my mind, as they didn't say worth, it's too easy. And I walked
off. And then I was about and we our paths crossed about three, four different times. And
then he came up to me with his boys in the daylight, right? He talking to shit. So what I did
was, I got ready to swipe. You know, oh, you just got to say you get into getting a no fly
zone. We don't see it. And he saw that. Then he you know, he pumped the brakes. And
then I saw him a few times. Now he's respectful. It was about a bottle a month of that.
Then I saw him one night. I say I say Dude, I'm glad you're a man. Because you wouldn't
shit would have went all kinds of bad bad. You know what I'm saying? And we shook
hands. You know what I mean? And we're good now. You know, but feet have been an
idiot. But that can't be too big. I'm not gonna be the victim do but if we got to be
respectful, that's one thing. But if one of us got to be a bitch, you got to put the high heels
on. Cuz I'm not. You see what I'm saying? So let's just stay respectful. Do you know what I
mean? You know, but but he got that. And so like I said, we good now. But it took that. You
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know what I mean? Can I give a big man a little, you no, everybody be men and go, but if
you're gonna make somebody be a bitch, I'm not putting on high heels. But you know
what I'm saying? Yeah, you have
I
Isaac Tadé 1:22:46
the awareness to get yourself out of situations that might get you in trouble. Oh, yeah.
Yeah. You know, and that's something to be proud of.
S
Sean Johnson 1:22:54
Oh, yeah. Like I say, there are no extra holes in me. That petty misdemeanor is the only
real thing I can he's killing me dude, it is I just found out they can't even started up until
the first of month to get it off. You know, but so I gotta go get a shitty job. You know me,
but but it is what it is. Like I say back I'm blessed above and beyond. You know, so it is just
the next thing on the road to where I got to go. And it's a patience. It really is, you know,
but I got a good circle and my trainer. super hot. Yeah, she's super smart. She's a good
trainer. Anyway. I'm talking about Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:23:51
Okay, all right. Um, I guess my next question was about like health commons. How did you
get involved with health commonss? And then after that, how do you think that we could
improve health commonss?
S
Sean Johnson 1:24:05
Yes, this place right? Yep. I got here cuz this dude here, uncle. Yeah, he bought me here.
Cuz it gave out bus tokens. You know, he said certain people think differently. So these are
bus tokens here. And so that's why I came. But once I got here, I saw the benefit of Kate.
Katie, you know, and the group thing or whatever. But um, anyway, just somewhere to go
where they had grits. There's nothing here. I'm from the south. So you didn't get him to
and and they were consistently they were consistent God cuz, you know, I like consistency.
And I don't like surprises. You know what I mean? Yeah. Not not in that kind of situation.
You know, and but what I would what I like about it is they were consistently decent
people. You know what I mean? And, and to improve it. I don't know. For me, I think just
keep doing what you're doing man but but just but with the understanding of everybody's
a human and and their journeys are what I want to say when I say I'm a human. They
don't get that that means I kill you. You know what I mean? To kill you to resuscitate you?
Humans, you know? Right. All that, but when you but if you say you're human and be
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humane, they No, no, no. Do you understand that? Do I mean Hello? When they try to dog
shot you with a gun? Oh, you know? Except all of who you are. They don't mean you're
gonna go around killing people. But But do you understand that? That's on the table.
Yeah, I mean, and so for me. I just I just like the idea that I was raised in a way that I could
evolve. You see what I'm saying? Cuz too many had to do. And he told me, he says, Matt
was raised like this. I no, dude, he just completely screw everybody. Everybody around
him. He just take it, you know? It's like, dude, no, no, no, no, no, no, no. We can hang out.
Because A back to the high heels. Why can't everybody just be respectful for me? My
mama raised me Do your 53 at some point, you got to take responsibility for this shit. You
do he's stealing from everybody. But no, no, no, no, no. You will know how I was raised. You
know how my dad taught me to deal with that? Do you really want to know? You know
what I'm saying? Is so...
I
Isaac Tadé 1:26:59
we gotta be more than we are. Yeah, yeah, we gotta be more than that.
S
Sean Johnson 1:27:06
Yeah, cuz cuz at the time when my dad raised me at that time, that was the best that was
that. But it's thirty years later. You know, I'm saying and so for me to still be doing the shit I
was doing at 12 good. That's, you know, come on, man. It but but it was working for you
know if you can just go take everybody shit and just people. I mean, what? No, no, no, no.
Okay, here's how this is gonna work. This ain't gonna work. Because Yeah, but it just was in
my mind. I couldn't believe you said that new 53 years old. Mama raised him like that. Get
the hell out of here, dude. He just taken and but to do what he was dealing with. Yeah,
were his friends. They were all handicap. And I'm like, come on, man. This this. This just
ain't right. Do they get the money? He do. He got dude's EBT card and his cash. Dude
asking him to get his shit back. Like come home and get a man. You know, he don't know
how to handle it is. I got the handle this way. You know, you know, he's a problem. But
anyways. People take advantage of people.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:28:27
Is there anything else you'd like to say that I didn't ask?
S
Sean Johnson 1:28:32
I don't know. We kind of went all over the place. Yeah, we talked about a lot. But what I
use what I will do that I can't think of that right now. But I think I think some of the main
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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things I don't know if they were said or not, was just to see people as human. And
understand that everybody has a story. And understand as humans, that's a hell of a
spectrum. It is. You know what I'm saying? If you don't believe that turn on CNN. You know,
like, you know, but uh, but that's it, man. Just be genuine with people. You know. Don't try
not to judge. You know, but I think like I said, I think anything that has a good spirit behind
it is going to bear fruit. You know what I'm saying? That's why Kate. Kate, I think has God's
favor on her. I surround myself people like that. You got God's favor? Hello. Hey, you know
what I mean? Bring it you know. Now you know, Kate. Nice. You know, I've never told her
that. But, uh, but I think she I know she does. You know, I mean, and. But she's not alone.
She's not a unicorn. You know? She's really not. But we're not like, people like that. Can we
get God's favor you know, who knows what kind of But let's see when you got good. That's
why that dream thing to dream beyond your dream. You see what I'm saying? I never
would have thought somebody look like that, No, you know, but I meant I meant that
trend is super hot. I'm supposed to. I met Kate when I supposed to meet you when I was
supposed to. You see what I'm saying? Don't people less older like I tell him all the time
they were like angels to me? Yeah, you don't say cuz when he was going down, they had
to close it down but she came out and it was given out some sandwiches or some old shit
like that. Right? But that's not what I meant me to cover I needed. I needed you know, a
conversation. Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:30:38
Some human connection.
S
Sean Johnson 1:30:40
Yes. And so she's like, Do you need anything to say? And I don't know, can I just get what I
need? You know? What I mean? Yeah, just keep this here going. You know, it seemed when
she met me. I was on the bike with the strippers on the back. And she's like a pastor lady,
you know, and so she's looking actively looking at me, you know? But she never judged
me. Then a dude that was higher up than he was like can i by a bike from you? He wanted
to turn the bike up she stood up for the bike. You know what I mean? Cuz she had heard
stories about to bite what to do with the bike and how to bike race joy, a lot of money to
me, but but you know, to me, it's not about going to the strip club. But um, it's just man,
just five people that has God's favor on them.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:31:28
I like that.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
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S
Sean Johnson 1:31:29
You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 1:31:29
I like that.
S
Sean Johnson 1:31:30
Yeah. Because that is simple that we we over we over complicate that keeps it simple
man. Keeps it simple. And God can be done. You know, and get what gets me through life
time because dates. I get blessed all the time. Like yesterday, I had a need and like a
need. And he took care of it. I didn't see it coming. I really did. And see guess what
happens with me? No, you know, it happens all the time. But But yeah, man, I thank my
mom for that because Karie and all the people that have been the other day the girl says,
You got to train her. And I do my trainer. Yeah, got that trainer that's hot. But you're my
trainer. Isaac, you know, Kate's my train. You know what I mean? I did girl that was even
with the hands. That's my trainer. Do you know dude with the with the tags? Yeah. Yes, my
train. You know what I'm saying? Cuz he's gonna take all that kicking this crazy day here.
To do what he supposed to do
I
Isaac Tadé 1:32:35
you're saying. We can learn from every situation for the people around us.
S
Sean Johnson 1:32:38
Isaac! He works thought people like Isaac Yes. And when will we get to where we don't
understand that we Houston we got a problem. We got a problem. You know, there's
nothing I can keep benefit from being you know, took this girl look at her. How could she
do right? You just missed out on a blesseing, right? You know what I mean? Right? And
people don't get that. Can they see me and now sumali thing? I'm in the shelter with you,
you know what I you mean? I'm not passing through the buck over there? You know, well,
you know what, suppose I'm gonna go and go to sleep and you know, but yours it's funny.
But but but there's guys hope you don't have good people. You know, in your little little
workout. You know? Yes, sir. You know? Yes, sir. You know, honestly believe that in spite of
everything you see to the contrary? God will be god and he works through people.
Isaac Tadé 1:33:44
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 35 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 1:33:44
Absolutely.
S
Sean Johnson 1:33:45
But here's what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna think about this, because it's important. You
know, saying if I come up with something okay, because I keep I keep something the right
way. And I notice a notebook on his phone somewhere. And I gotta find, I believe, yeah,
there we go. Okay, but yeah, so we got somewhere, take notes. Because when you when I
hear a joke, because it was joke to me, somebody else might need to hear that to my my
benefit.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:34:19
Yeah.
S
Sean Johnson 1:34:21
And he says, okay, and I keep that with me. But it also keeps me grounded. You know,
sometimes, when you see Uncle, you know, whatever, be an uncle human or whatever. It
takes a little something to not, you know what I mean? Be as human as you'd like to be,
you know, and so, but, but it's cool. I mean, I feel pretty good about about the decisions
I've made. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:34:53
You know what I mean?
S
Sean Johnson 1:34:54
And that's a good thing. You know, could never be nice. I looked in the mirror every day.
But But yeah, so it takes some doing
I
Isaac Tadé 1:35:07
getting there. Yeah, everything is a work in progress all the time. Yes, sir. I love that. Well,
thank you for your time and the rich account of your personal history. Yeah. All right. We're
good to go.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 36 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Sean Johnson 1:35:19
Boom.
I
Isaac Tadé 1:35:20
That's it.
Oral History Sean Johnson, 2021
Page 37 of 37
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is December 7 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim citizens in the state of Minnesota. Her name is
Manal Hashw.
Manal Hashw 0:19
Good evening, Manal. How are you today?... Show more
May Kamsheh 0:01
Today is December 7 2019, and my name is May Kamsheh. This is for the
Muslims in Minnesota project for Augsburg University. I'm talking to
one of the Muslim citizens in the state of Minnesota. Her name is
Manal Hashw.
Manal Hashw 0:19
Good evening, Manal. How are you today?
Good evening, May. I'm good. Thank you.
May Kamsheh 0:25
Would you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about you.
Manal Hashw 0:30
My name is Manal Hashw. I am a..um..my background is an Egyptian
originally, and I have three kids. Married for 29 years. And I live in
Eden Prairie Minnesota.
May Kamsheh 0:53
Okay, when and where were you born in what town did you grow up in?
Manal Hashw 0:58
I was born in Egypt. And I grew up in Egypt, went to college. And I
came to United States like 1990.
May Kamsheh 1:10
You went to college in Egypt?
Manal Hashw
Yes.
1:12
May Kamsheh 1:14
What college was it?
Manal Hashw 1:16
I went to the engineering school. And I graduated 1989.
May Kamsheh 1:24
Oh, nice. So you came after you graduated college?
Manal Hashw 1:28
Yeah, I met my husband and we came together.
May Kamsheh 1:33
So you got married and then came?
Manal Hashw
Yeah.
1:36
May Kamsheh 1:36
Nice. Um, so before you came here, what was your childhood like in
Egypt?
Manal Hashw 1:43
Egypt it was good. We were like middle class family. My dad died when
I was like 11 and my mom raised me and my brother and sisters. I
finished my college degree and that was decent and good childhood.
May Kamsheh 2:10
That's good. Did you have any like early memories you remember from
it?
Manal Hashw 2:16
Yeah, I have memories about because I was from Alexandria, Egypt and
Alexandria is on the Mediterranean. And all my memories is about the
beach and walking in a beach and you know, and I go with my friends
swim and all these memories still was me.
May Kamsheh 2:41
That's fun. So, who are your parents? Or what were your parents like?
Manal Hashw 2:49
My, as I said, my dad died when I was 11. He was a major in the army
in Egypt and he died when I was 11. My mom was a school teacher and
then school principal and they were like working middle class.
May Kamsheh 3:16
Okay. So do you have any brothers or sisters?
Manal Hashw 3:20
I have one brother and two sisters.
May Kamsheh 3:26
What what were they like?
Manal Hashw 3:31
My two sisters still living back in Egypt now. My brother lives here
in Minnesota. They're very good. I'm the oldest..
May Kamsheh 3:41
Okay, so they're younger?
Manal Hashw 3:43
..they are younger than me and we are connecting, you know, I always
visit my brother here in Minnesota. I go to Egypt once in a while to
see my sisters, come back. So we're good.
May Kamsheh 4:00
That's good. So you said you graduated in Egypt and your career path
was engineering? So when you came here did you work in that field
still?
Manal Hashw 4:12
Yes. When I came here, I, I took some classes in computer science
besides my engineering degree, and I worked as a software engineer for
like three years. And then I my kids, you know, my third, my third
daughter came and it becomes very hard to work with three kids in this
field. So I decided to stay home and you know take care of the kids.
May Kamsheh 4:51
So that you go to like the University of Minnesota?
Manal Hashw
For what?
4:54
May Kamsheh 4:55
For the classes.
Manal Hashw 4:56
No, I went to a Technical College.
May Kamsheh
Oh okay.
4:58
Manal Hashw 4:58
For the for the software classes, I just needed to add some more
information to what I have and know about the system. So and, you
know, learn English very well as I can. And after this I was hired at
Gelco Information Network. It's a company in Eden Prairie, and I
worked there for like, three or maybe four years. Yeah.
May Kamsheh 5:32
Did you like it there?
Manal Hashw 5:34
Yeah, I did. I like it so much. But as a programmer, it's, you know,
you can't keep track of time. And when you have three kids, it's
impossible to you know, to manage both. So I just decided to stay home
andtake care of the kids.
May Kamsheh 5:56
Did you get have your kids here in Minnesota?
Manal Hashw 5:59
Oh, yeah. They're all born here in Minnesota.
May Kamsheh 6:09
So how was that when you first came here? Did you first you came to
Minnesota was the only state you've lived in?
Manal Hashw 6:16
Yes, yes. However I visited everywhere in United States. But yeah,
when I came I came here. First I didn't know how much cold [laughs] my
husband didn't give me an idea about how much cold is it. So I came in
September. So September was okay and that's going to be cold as
September but October, November, snow start to come Decemeber and I
said, Oh my gosh, what I put myself into? [laughs] Because the weather
there in Alexandria, Egypt is like San Diego, California Yeah, it's
like, hot and you know, nice and, and we never wear jackets or boots
or hats or and I started to learn you know how to deal with the
weather, you know?
May Kamsheh 7:16
So you got used to it?
Manal Hashw 7:18
No [laughs] I'm still working on it! [laughs more]
May Kamsheh 7:24
Same! So when you came here did you know a lot of English or did you
learn more here?
Manal Hashw 7:33
I learned more here because in Egypt we didn't we didn't have a lot of
you know we know English but as like the British way.
May Kamsheh
Oh yeah..
7:44
Manal Hashw 7:45
So it was a problem in the beginning with the English and also we
didn't have enough so I was in the beginning like afraid to talk to
anybody like listening and understanding I don't want to speak because
I don't want people to make fun of me. But it came by the time in, you
know?
May Kamsheh 8:07
Yeah, that's good.
Manal Hashw 8:08
I am still learning. [laughs]
May Kamsheh 8:10
So your college was in English in you classes in Egypt?
Manal Hashw
Half half.
8:15
May Kamsheh
8:16
Oh okay.
Manal Hashw 8:16
So and also is still the scientific terms, you know, and it's totally
different than the conversation. And it's different than when you have
somebody say a joke, and you don't understand what's behind this joke
or what, what does that mean or so it took time because it's not just
the language it's the culture too. You know?
May Kamsheh 8:39
Okay, yeah. So into the next set of questions, how was being a Muslim
in Minnesota when you first came when you first came here like?
Manal Hashw 8:52
It didn't really matter at all because I didn't feel any different you
know? We came here people were nice we're good, you know? I asked
about if there is a mosque here in Minnesota and I knew that that
Islamic Center in Fridley so you we were going there and events and
see people and sometimes pray but actually we never have a problem you
know as Muslims here.
May Kamsheh 9:27
Was the community small when you came here at first?
Manal Hashw 9:32
Yeah actually it's it's yeah expanded now. It was small. We have like
some friends around I didn't know everybody but I was busy with the
kids and work and but I I think it was smaller then we're talking
about 29 years ago. It's a long time.
May Kamsheh 9:55
Yeah. Okay, so You said you had kids, how many kids you have again?
Manal Hashw 10:03
I have three kids. And I got my first in 1991, then my second 1993,
and my third is 1997.
May Kamsheh 10:19
Do your kids live here?
Manal Hashw 10:21
Yeah. My first son. Yeah. He's he's married now. And he lives in
Plymouth. And my second son, he graduated from the U of M engineering
school. Yeah. And my daughter she graduated from the engineering
school U of M too. And they both working. So, and my oldest graduate
from Carson, not Carson. St. Thomas University. Yeah, with a business
degree and he works at Medtronic.
May Kamsheh 11:01
So they are all engineers?
Manal Hashw 11:03
No, two engineers and one business.
May Kamsheh
Oh, okay.
11:05
Manal Hashw
Yeah.
11:05
May Kamsheh 11:08
That's nice.
Manal Hashw 11:09
Yeah. [laughs] I'm glad I was able to, you know, direct them
May Kamsheh
Yeah.
11:16
Manal Hashw 11:16
And lead them to, to achieve their goals.
May Kamsheh 11:20
Was your husband engineer too?
Manal Hashw 11:21
Yeah, he is. He's a manager at Medtronic. And he's a mechanical
engineer.
May Kamsheh 11:31
Okay, so how is handling a job and kids like? You said it was hard?
Manal Hashw 11:37
It was very hard for me because I, I wanted to because I have the
Egyptian culture. And I'm here in US and I wanted to get the two good
things from what I can say that I wanted to get the best from the two
cultures.
May Kamsheh
Yeah.
11:59
Manal Hashw 12:00
So to do that you have to guide your kids and you have to be around
and watch them and talk to them and follow school and and to do that
with three kids it's it's hard when you work full time. So I you know,
I after like four years I quit and I decided to stay home for a few
years until they grow up and then I go back.
May Kamsheh 12:29
Did you go back to engineering?
Manal Hashw 12:32
No, it ends up i when i was raising the kid they were very young. I
wanted them to learn the language and religion. So I decided to and
the Islamic Center was in Fridley, we live in Eden Prairie, it's far
away. And I don't want to drive on every day there and so I am was
thinking why we don't have a small Sunday school or charter school or
anything here in Eden Prairie. So here when I started the Sunday
school
May Kamsheh 13:15
Okay, that follows me into my next question is; When did you start the
opening of the Sunday school, Al-Manar?
Manal Hashw 13:22
I am, it was very easy. [laughs] We weren't we weren't really looking
for a school. I was just wanted to have my kids learn language, the
Arabic language and the culture, the culture. And I was talking to my
friends, and they said just start the project and we'll support you.
So I went to the Eden Prairie district, and I talked to them about
what I want to do and if they can give me a space to rent, and have
the kids come every Sunday to learn language and culture um and they
agree to do that and I they given me the CMS school, Central Middle
School in Eden Prairie, to use for three hours every Sunday. And when
I got the permission, I started to recruit teachers and assistants and
you know, and then we build the school and we have, we had like around
200 students in this school, learning language culture. We had also
like 15 teachers. So I started I became busy with the school and I
forgot about engineering so [laughs] and I schools started in 2001 and
stayed for 12 years. I've been the principal of this school for 12
years. And it was a volunteer work. I was just working with teachers,
ordering books, helping kids, to create curriculum to help them learn.
And we worked for 12 years at the school.
May Kamsheh 15:34
So were there any challenges that you faced running the school? Like
not enough kids like signed up or you didn't have?
Manal Hashw 15:45
No, actually when we started we had a lot of people come to enroll
their kids in the school, because it was the only one in the South
West. And everybody Well, want to have, you know, the school close to
their house. So we have a lot of people come and sign up and the
challenge was sometimes, you know, to satisfy everybody and there is
different ideas and different agendas and but we I tried from the
beginning to use the school only for education and have the kids come
to learn. I didn't want to make it as a community center or a place
for people to come and sit and do activities, no, it just was just a
school and that's what I wanted and so the challenge is how to
convince parents you know, that this place only for school. And um but
I was able to do that from the beginning, and it's, it was a very
successful project.
May Kamsheh 17:06
Was it kids from all ages?
Manal Hashw 17:08
Yes. All Ages, and we had also adult classes too. And we had many
nationalities, Americans, Indians, Europeans, they all wanted to learn
the Arabic language, and the culture and some of about the religion
history so we will be doing that all ages.
May Kamsheh 17:37
Nice. So did you teach a class as well?
Manal Hashw 17:41
I did. Yeah. In the beginning, I was teaching because we were in a
process to try to find the right teachers took time to do that. So I
was teaching myself and then when we found enough teachers, I was only
doing the principal job and work mostly in managing, recruiting, doing
activities for the kids, plays on the stage, and music sometimes,
order the books you know? Principal work.
May Kamsheh 18:20
Did you like being a principal?
Manal Hashw 18:22
Yes, I, I think my engineering background helped me a lot to work on
this because having a project like this and interact with people, you
have to be organized, you have to put priorities, you have to have
your brain set a certain way to deal with everybody. And yeah, I it
was it was fun.
May Kamsheh 18:50
That's good. So why did it end up closing?
Manal Hashw 18:53
Because after 12 years, I'm tired. [laughs]. I got you know, I I, my
kids grown, you know, went to college, I was happy about how much they
know about Arabic language and culture and religion. And I wanted to
do something else, another project, you know? Which is I'm doing right
now trying, you know, tutoring kids math and science. I wanted to do
something different. So I asked people, if somebody want to take over
and do what I'm doing, but I guess we couldn't find somebody who put
all the time I was putting and energy. So we end up like we said,
we're gonna take a break. And it's been now three years. It's closed,
and nobody want to go and take the responsibility again.
May Kamsheh 19:53
I'm sure someone will hopefully.
Manal Hashw 19:55
Yeah hopefully. I think what happened now is because there is a lot of
schools right now in the Twin Cities. So people are divided in
different schools. And everybody went to school that close to their
house. So and settled, you know, so so I think we did a good job. And
we're proud of this school and what offered to the community, the
Egyptian and the Arab community, and just give a chance to other
people to shine and do other projects.
May Kamsheh 20:35
So it was overall successful you think?
Manal Hashw 20:38
Yes, it was. You know, I, you know, it's enough for me that this was
the first Sunday school in Minnesota that I created to help the Arab
community you know, with language and so I'm so proud of this project
and from this school, a lot of schools, you know, came and start. So,
yeah, I'm satisfied about working on this school.
May Kamsheh 21:11
Yeah, you should be really proud. That's really cool. You did that.
Manal Hashw
Thank you.
21:15
May Kamsheh 21:16
So you mentioned your other project you're working on?
Manal Hashw 21:20
It wasn't a project, it was because I love teaching. So I was I went
to the district, Eden Prairie school district, and I worked as a
paraprofessional there at the high school. And I was also a study
skills class teacher, because I was hired to teach students how to
study. I believe that if the kids know how to study and how to
organize themselves and how to beat the test they it's it's really
important to give them the this technical, you know, tools to use.
They will be great, you know in math and science. So I worked two
years at Eden Prairie high schools and then program canceled for money
or whatever. So I went back home again and I decided to do private
tutoring.
Okay, what age was that?
The high school school. That was high school. That was, yeah. 18 and
19.
May Kamsheh 22:37
So now you do private tutoring?
Manal Hashw 22:39
I do. It's not like a business but like, my friends if their kids need
help. One of my neighbors need help. So it's just like.
May Kamsheh 22:51
Oh okay, that's nice. So you mentioned the do you go to one specific
mosque here around here is there a mosque close to you?
Manal Hashw 23:07
There is the mosque on Shady Oak Road Masjid..I forgot the name. Um
just we go you know in Eid and I don't go like often. I don't go like
every Friday and no but I go to events when we have our holidays. I go
there. If the community having an event, so yeah, a good one in Eden
Prairie.
May Kamsheh 23:46
Okay. Have you ever faced any difficulties being a Muslim here?
Manal Hashw 23:55
After see after 9/11, we had we were confused and everybody was
confused and we didn't know what happened. So it's it's the we had
some difficulty for people to understand that what happened is has
nothing to do with Islam. And I tried my best to explain to my
neighbors, my friends, my because I have a lot of American friends and
I have my neighbors and I can meet you know, I volunteer in schools. I
work with kids in schools and everything so I have we had to explain
that this people are have you know, they're not they have nothing to
do with Islam. And that was all political all all. whatever they're
doing, violence for, for for an agenda in their head but this is has
nothing to do with the religion itself. And I think by the time people
understand now that you know, a lot of Muslim people here in US are
successful and part of the community that gets born there here, they
become their country. So, but that was the time that we had difficulty
but after this and before, everything is good.
May Kamsheh 25:29
That's good. Have you ever given speeches about Islam to a large crowd
or group of people?
Manal Hashw 25:40
Um no, I didn't speak to a large crowd. However, I spoke to my
neighbors like group of three or four, to explain what Islam is, and
what's Muslim do, what's the difference between the religion of Islam,
Christianity, and Judaism, and so it was usually a group of 2, 3, 4 to
talk to them about Islam, but I never like talk to a big crowd before.
May Kamsheh 26:14
Okay, and these people you talk to were they supportive?
Manal Hashw
26:18
Yeah, because people the problem is some people listen to the media
only or they never read about the history of Islam. They listen to the
media or some they see some videos on YouTube or you know, and create
an idea in their head about Muslims. And some people not, some people
know, you know, they read, they ask questions, they figured out. But I
always you know, have to talk to those people who are confused and
they don't know, you know, who's Muslims? What they're doing here,
especially with having some violence and trouble, sometimes related or
associated with the Muslims or the Islam. So I had to explain to them
that we have like 1 billion Muslims in the world. So if some group of
Muslims are did something bad or have a certain thinking or that
doesn't mean that all Muslims are the same and give them examples and
talk to them but the history it's good for people to know. You know,
so they don't judge you. They don't judge you based on media or bad
information.
May Kamsheh 28:01
Yes, that's good. I agree. So how is being a Muslim in Minnesota now
different than it was when you first got here?
Manal Hashw 28:11
I think the new generation now are more knowledgeable about Islam and
about other religions and about accepting the others. And I think that
the gap that the big difference between when I come there was no
internet, no tools to find information about religions. So people were
confused about it. But now, I think the new generation everybody knows
about Muslims and Muslim history and so I think it's better now.
May Kamsheh 28:56
Okay, so how do you see the future of Islam Minnesota as in will it
keep growing you think?
Manal Hashw 29:04
Yeah, I think the community is getting together, they are more
connected they support each other. If in in their bad time or if
somebody needs help or for kids you know if things happen to the
parents or for any problem in the community, I think Muslims community
now help each other. Yeah, I can see and I noticed that there is a big
community now, it's more than before.
May Kamsheh 29:51
So you see the Muslim community future being expanded?
Manal Hashw 29:56
Yeah, it's expanding now. Because the third generation now is more
open and more connected with the with each other and with the
Americans, and so it's you can't miss it. I mean, it's there and it's
getting bigger.
May Kamsheh
30:22
Okay. Are you happy that you came here to the United States?
Manal Hashw 30:27
Yes, I am. Of course I am happy this is a land of opportunity. And we
came here in and we decided to be part of the country and become
Muslim Americans. And I think we, we did great, we are successful. We
have our kids are successful, they have good jobs. We are part of the
community. We volunteer, we help, we lived here, I think I lived here
more than I lived in my native country. So I'm so happy. I love people
here, I love the culture, I love being part of, of this country.
May Kamsheh 31:19
So it was a good decision overall?
Manal Hashw 31:21
Of course, I am Egyptian American, and I'm American citizen. And I
value my country here and I value Egypt too. And I think it's a good
decision. I'm, I'm happy to take this decision.
May Kamsheh 31:38
Is there anything else you'd like to say as your final words?
Manal Hashw 31:43
No, I'm so happy that there is about this project. I mean, people will
maybe get some idea about Muslim in, in America, and I think you
covered all the points. You did a great job.
May Kamsheh 32:00
Okay, thank you for your time and I really appreciate it.
Manal Hashw 32:04
You're welcome and good luck with your project. And thank you very
much.
May Kamsheh 32:09
Thank you. Hope to see you again soon.
Manal Hashw 32:11
Yep. Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Thu, 3/25 6:41PM
22:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, commons, health, augsburg, treat, feel, providing, dnp, practicum, minnesota, community,
pandemic, experience, lived, working, poorly, interacted, program, addiction, university
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, J... Show more
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Thu, 3/25 6:41PM
22:09
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, commons, health, augsburg, treat, feel, providing, dnp, practicum, minnesota, community,
pandemic, experience, lived, working, poorly, interacted, program, addiction, university
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Jenna Nelson
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
central health commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, and I'm a student at Augsburg
University. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording and tell us what your
position is? Or was at the university?
J
Jenna Nelson 00:20
Yeah, my name is Jenna Nelson. I am a DNP FNP student in my third year at Augsburg
University, and I'm also working as an intern with the health commons.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:36
Okay, great. Thank you. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent
to being interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will
be made available to the public.
J
Jenna Nelson 00:48
Yes, I consent to that.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 1 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:50
Okay. Thank you. Can you tell me where you grew up? And who you call family?
J
Jenna Nelson 00:56
Yeah, so my dad was in the Air Force. And so I grew up on Air Force bases. We lived in
Okinawa, Japan. We lived in Hawaii for four years. And then we lived in Fort Walton
Beach, Florida. And then we moved to Rochester, Minnesota, where I ended up doing High
School. And I was adopted when I was three months old from Chile. So yeah, my family is
my older brother, Tony, also adopted from Chile a few years before I was from a different
family. And then my parents who are, my dad's from Brainerd, Minnesota, so really
Minnesotan and my mom's more Western, Claire City, Minnesota, a small farming town.
So yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:42
Great. Thank you. How did you end up at Augsburg University.
J
Jenna Nelson 01:46
So, I like the Twin Cities. I went to the University of Minnesota for my undergrad. And I
heard a lot of good things about Augsburg from other people that I've met living up here.
And then I worked for about 10 years after I graduated with my Rn, and wanted to live
back in Minneapolis. So it just kind of was close. And I liked how the program sounded.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:14
Great. Thank you. How did you become involved with Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 02:18
So for one of my classes for the DNP FNP program, Katie was the instructor and part of
the class was to kind of actually be involved in the community and see different ways you
can work with community members. And so one of the places she told us about this, the
Health Commons, and we can get practicum hours for it too. So that's kind of how we got
started with it.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:46
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 2 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Okay. And what can you tell me about your experience at Health Commons so far?
J
Jenna Nelson 02:51
so far, it's kind of crazy this last year, because things changed with the pandemic, pretty
significantly. But before the pandemic, it seemed fairly busy, you know, you could see
there's a need for this. And just kind of the relationships I saw Katie have with people who
come here frequently, even interacting with people that are new to the Health Commons
using some of those kind of services that they provide. I just think it's really important work
she's doing. It's needed in the community, and it would be awesome if there were more
places like this in most communities, because there's a need really, for this.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:37
How long have you been at Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 03:40
I think I did start in 2018. I volunteered a little bit after I did some practicum hours here.
And then I was free. I took a year off from school. And then when I started again, that
summer, I came back so I think it was summer of 2019. I came and volunteered a couple
times. And then with the internship, right when I saw that email, I kind of jumped on it and
said I want to do it. So I was fortunate I get picked.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:07
So you're here again!
J
Jenna Nelson 04:08
Yeah, I am here now, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:10
Okay. How was Health Commons presented to fit in with your curriculum? And how well
do you think your experience at Health Commons relates to what you were learning?
J
Jenna Nelson 04:20
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 3 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Yeah, so the Health Commons was, again, the Augsburg DNP FNP program specifically
wants to focus on holistic community health. Family Nurse Practitioners are meant to
provide preventative health care to community members. And, you know, the U.S. doesn't
have a universal health care system. Obviously, there's huge groups of people who are not
getting primary care, preventative care, even just kind of basic health counseling. So this
kind of fit into that part of this program where they really wanted to emphasize being
involved in the community, working directly with the people that you're serving, and kind
of addressing those underlying problems with certain groups of people not getting the
care that, you know, they need.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:54
So it sounds like the curriculum has really aligned with the mission of Health Commons
here.
J
Jenna Nelson 05:23
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I would say the, and vice versa, too. I guess that would
make sense. But yeah, this is really, I think the direction that they want to go with this
specific program, the FNP DNP program. And I would say it's, it might be one of the only
kind of parts of the program that really do. Like, it's it is what it says it is. It's not... I feel
like sometimes programs can kind of, you know, they try to advertise, and they say, "We
do this, we're involved in this," but then you're in the program, and you're like, "You do that
for an hour, like one semester." That's not what you signed up for. But I feel like this is
definitely kind of what they're preaching in the program.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:06
So walking the walk?
J
Jenna Nelson 06:07
In action, yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:08
Yeah. Okay, thank you. How did your experience at Health Commons fit or challenge your
expectations?
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 4 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
Jenna Nelson 06:17
Um, I would say it challenged my expectations. It kind of fit it, too. I mean, so working with
people directly, especially people who've been marginalized, treated poorly by healthcare
providers, and basically anybody who, you know, works with a certain entity, like a
hospital or the government or something, I feel like, people are pretty, not defensive, but
just cautious around new people. And so I guess I was surprised that people coming to
Health Commons and using its services were as open as they were, to me. And then every
now and then I would be surprised and taken aback if somebody...if I did something or
said something that offended someone really strongly. But yeah, I guess it kind of was
what I thought it would be. Which is good. Because, you know, like I said, a lot of times,
people say that they're doing something, and it involves all these details, and then you do,
and that's not really what they said it was, and this was exactly, you know, working with
people directly and meeting them where they're at.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:24
And you said that a lot of people met you and trusted you and accepted the care that you
were providing. Which wasn't your expectation? What do you think it was that made you
approachable? As a health care provider?
J
Jenna Nelson 07:44
Yeah, specifically in this environment, I would just say...Katie, pretty much. They trust Katie,
a lot of people here really trust Katie, and they really don't trust anyone else that is
"providing". I'm doing quotes, you're providing services for them. But I think because of the
direct relation and where I'm coming from. That might have been why. Also, usually when
I meet people, I'm fairly quiet, and I try to let them direct the conversation or the
interaction. So that might help.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:22
Yeah, thank you. Thank you for sharing. Did you feel as though people felt welcomed into
this space? Do you have any suggestions on how we could do that better? You've already
touched on this a little bit.
J
Jenna Nelson 08:36
Yeah, I think they do (feel welcomed). And again, the pandemic makes it, it really
complicates things in terms of people feeling welcomed. Just because you can only have
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 5 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
so many people in the room at one time and then because other people are waiting to
come in. They can only, kind of, spend so much time there. We try not to rush anyone out.
But yeah, it's I think it would have been interesting to be here a lot more before the
pandemic to see.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:04
The contrast.
J
Jenna Nelson 09:05
Yeah, but I felt like when the Health Commons was in that trailer in the parking lot, like a
long time ago, before the church had finished its renovations, even though it was a tiny,
cramped space, it felt super welcoming. Like it felt like a good vibe. You walk in there and
you know people, it seemed like people felt like they could be there and they were
comfortable.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:27
Okay, what strengths did you learn of, or hear from the people that you met?
J
Jenna Nelson 09:34
Um, people I met working or just people using the services ?
I
Isaac Tadé 09:39
Probably both, yeah.
J
Jenna Nelson 09:43
Well, yeah. I guess for the people that are coming in here that are either currently
experiencing homelessness or have, a lot of the strengths are just you know, they're
resilient. They still see the good in people even though they've been treated poorly. And
hearing some of their stories to like, you know, a lot of institutionalized, like racism or just
being treated poorly in all these different avenues. And yeah, they're very resilient. So
that's good to see. And then the people working here, I would just say, their strengths are
that they keep an open mind. And I don't see a lot of people here at all acting as if they
know more than the people seeking services. It's kind of like, more of an even playing field
versus going into like a clinic and seeing a primary care doctor or nurse practitioner.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 6 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Nobody's... I feel like nobody's really being talked down to they're just having
conversations.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:50
The relationships between people providing services and people receiving them are often
mutually beneficial. Would you say?
J
Jenna Nelson 10:57
Definitely, yeah. And and I think it's very transparent that that's the case too, I don't think,
yeah. That's nice. That's true.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:06
Thank you. How has this experience changed any biases you may have had about
homelessness, or marginalized housed individually? individuals? Excuse me.
J
Jenna Nelson 11:20
So like working in the emergency department, I've interacted with people that are
experiencing homelessness or experiencing addiction, or, you know, they have
experienced homelessness. And I think this just kind of helps me have more experience
working with people who might have had those lived experiences.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:45
Do any stories come to mind? Um, I'm about bias or...
J
Jenna Nelson 11:52
like, well, I guess something,
I
Isaac Tadé 11:54
Maybe something that changed your perspective?
J
Jenna Nelson 11:56
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 7 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I guess some stuff. Just interacting with people here and like people opening up the
people seeking services, I think I became more comfortable caring for that population in
the ER. Like, I didn't realize that I wasn't comfortable with it, or I didn't realize that I was
like, I was maybe just not, I don't even know, opening up enough. Like when you're a nurse,
and you're working with a patient who comes to the ER, for example, like you can tell if
they want to interact with you a lot. They can tell if you want to narrate their care. And
sometimes when people would come in and they were homeless, I just would leave them
alone, because I was like, "Oh, they're tired, they're resting or like, I'm just gonna wait for,
you know, when we get the results back from their labs are x ray." But after being here, I
realize no, I mean, each individual is different, regardless of whether or not they're housed
or homeless or suffering from addiction. And so then I feel like I was more open to letting
them kind of run the show in terms of how the interaction would happen. And I remember,
like, after doing some volunteering at the Health Commons, I was working in the
emergency department. And this guy came in and he was missing, I think he was missing
all the toes on one of his foot. And the other foot, he was missing almost all of them too.
There like there were two left. And he had just gotten off a bus from...it was either
Mississippi or Louisiana. Literally the community that was serving him down there gave
him a bus pass and said, "You can go wherever you want." And so he said, "I came to
Minnesota, because I've heard they have really good resources up here. They treat people
well." And I think it was a middle of winter too. And I'm just like, oh my God. So he had
come in because he was having like, some pain in his foot. He had a little bit of an ulcer
who was diabetic. So the wound healing was poor. And like, I got him a bunch of warm
blankets. And I was like, "Do you want anything to eat?" I got him some food, some
emergency room food, which isn't great, but I got him food. And I think every time I came
in there, he was just like, taken aback, like, Is this real? And so I wonder how he's how he
was treated previously, you know, in emergency room settings or in other healthcare type
settings. But it was really funny. Like, I think he he thought I was like, I don't know, like,
super nice. I'm like, "No, this is how we treat people here, you know, typically."
I
Isaac Tadé 14:13
So it sounds like originally, you had just kind of interacted with the population when
necessary to provide the care.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:25
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:25
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 8 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
And now it seems as though you've kind of gone past that maybe eliminated some of
those biases that you didn't even know you had.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:33
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:34
And you're more interactive with the population, which provides better, like relationships
for you. And probably better care as well.
J
Jenna Nelson 14:43
Exactly. Yeah. Like I think, just working with other people in general, especially when
related to their health. It's like...you kind of have to step back and look at what your role is
and how you might appear to them. And I think I didn't want to be a bother. A lot of times
when people were coming in, because again, I was like this is their only time where they're
getting, like shelter for maybe four or five hours or something like that. So I would just
want to leave them alone. But then exactly like, the more I actually was here and had
conversations with people, the more I recognize that it depends on the person, but a lot of
people are craving like social interaction. And this is one of the places where they would
get it would be like a health care setting.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:30
Wow, that's beautiful. Thank you. How would you suggest we can better accompany
people on their journey of health, for example, adding more hours or adding outreach
services?
J
Jenna Nelson 15:46
Adding more hours would be good. I know that takes people and money and time and
stuff. But yeah, I think adding more hours and locations, which was mentioned before, too.
And yeah, like being involved with the encampments, as well as, you know, providing
meals. With the COVID, providing immunizations, if we have some bringing it out to them
versus expecting them to come here. But yeah, basically just being more even more visible
in the community than they already are, would be good.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 9 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 16:21
Outreach more?
J
Jenna Nelson 16:22
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:23
Okay. What, if anything, will you take forward with you, from your experience? For
example, has this experience impacted your future career ideas or personal goals? What
was the most valuable part of your experience? Actually, I'll just ask that first question.
What, if anything, will you take forward with you from this experience,
J
Jenna Nelson 16:49
Um, just, again, that people are extraordinarily resilient, like mentally, physically, and that,
again, everybody has a story, and everybody has a reason for being the way that they
are. And even if it comes off as harsh or rude, or, like, you know, they're having a really
bad time. So just keeping that in mind, not taking things personally, and trying to, you
know, individually, respond to somebody versus assuming, making kind of stereotypes you
know, about what they might need, based on how they look. I mean, when I look at
someone, now I look at them, and I'm like, I have no idea what they want, I need to I need
to communicate with them. Whereas before, I might have made assumptions. Is that a
practice that you learned here? Or through Augsburg orsomething else? Definitely, with
the programs. I think it's 803 is the class, I can't remember 802 or 803. But yeah, like, any
of the practicum hours that we did, especially with the Health Commons, I feel like kind of
foster that. So.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:01
Okay, thank you. What was the most valuable part of this experience?
J
Jenna Nelson 18:08
So far, I think it's been seeing, like, the relationships that Katie has with people and then
just having time to work with people here. I think it's just, you know, things take time. And
to have the chance to do this is awesome, especially to get like, you know, do the
internship is amazing. I would have volunteered regardless, but to have an internship to
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 10 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for students is awesome. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:37
What was most useful to you?
J
Jenna Nelson 18:41
I'm probably having Katie, as a, I'd say mentor, like somebody I can ask questions to. And I
don't have to be afraid that maybe I just sounded like I'm stereotyping someone. Like it's
a very open conversation. And if I have questions about, you know, how she interacts with
people when they treat her a certain way, I know, it's an open space. I don't know what
they call it in the woke community.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:07
Like a safe space space. Yeah. for learning and for...
J
Jenna Nelson 19:10
Yeah, yeah, there's not... I feel really confident too that there's not judgment. It's more like,
okay, like, open your mind. We're learning together here. So, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:20
Wow, that's beautiful. What do you think Health Commons could do better? Is there
anything missing?
J
Jenna Nelson 19:27
Um, I don't know. That's a good question. I would have to think about that. Okay. But I
mean, yeah, it's just sometimes I like the idea of telling people they can only take so many
things like the whole...I think...
I
Isaac Tadé 19:47
Limited resources?
Jenna Nelson 19:48
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 11 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
Jenna Nelson 19:48
Yeah. It's the limited resources and the reason for it is because there's limited resources
Funding and like, yeah. But no, I think, again, outreach and of promoting their existence
so people know they're here, is good in the community.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:52
Funding, yeah Is there anything that you would change about the internship experience?
J
Jenna Nelson 20:12
Um, I don't think so. No, I, I think it's gone really well. It's nice and convenient to be able to
schedule online. We have that too. So, no, that's good.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:24
Okay. Is there any specific story you would share that stuck with you, from your
experience at Health Commons?
J
Jenna Nelson 20:38
Initially when I was doing 803, and volunteering and getting practicum hours, I think it was
2017 or 2018. But I did an oral history for a gentlemen that frequently came to the Health
Commons. And I talked to him for about 45 minutes. And once I was typing it up, typing up
the transcript, I realized, like... I don't know, some of the stuff that he'd been through was
like, he had no control over it. And he had suffered from alcoholism. And he was treated
really poorly in a lot of environments because of his history of addiction. And it was just
another example of like, how issues with addiction and at least our community, I want to
say generally our country, probably worldwide, are just, I mean, we really need to work on
how we treat people with addiction issues.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:36
We punish rather than treat.
J
Jenna Nelson 21:38
Yeah, and I mean even...Yeah, definitely we do that.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 12 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 21:43
Yeah. Okay. Is there anything else that you'd like to add that we haven't talked about?
J
Jenna Nelson 21:55
No, I don't think so.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:57
Okay, I think this concludes our oral history. Thank you so much.
J
Jenna Nelson 22:03
Yes. You're welcome. Thanks.
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2021)
Page 13 of 13
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0217
Description: The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald B... Show more
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(morning session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0217
Description: The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines, and Ronald
Sample discuss residential segregation and racism in a panel moderated by Dr. Myles
Stenshoel. Ada Deer asks a question at the end as part of the audience. The panel was
part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as
"One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:10:39
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Miles Stenshoel] We're going to try to get going as soon, as quickly as
possible this morning. Some of the people who are on the--on your folder,
are not here and we've been very fortunate that some others have been
able to come in at the last moment.
00:00:19
Let's start over at my left just a brief introduction here. Ronald Sample,
representing TCOIC [Twin Cities Opportunities Industrialization Center].
Ron Edwards was not able to be here, and Mr. Sample was called in, I
guess, at the very last moment, so we welcome him. Reginald Berry is
over here. He is a student at Central High School. Gary Hines, next to Mr.
Sample, a student of Central High School, and Mr. Harold Andrews in the
center here.
00:00:57
[Inaudible sounds as Stenshoel speaks with others about audio
equipment] This is the tape recorder. [Inaudible]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 1
00:01:13
Mr. Andrews has a number of positions, and I was asking him for them,
and he gave him to me so thick and fast I couldn't get them all down. He's
chairman of the United Southside, he is retained by the School Board for
something else [audience laughs], he's the assistant pastor of Sabathani
Church and I think most of these people probably wear a number of hats
and I don't think we're going to spend too much time with that. Some of
their identity will come out undoubtedly in the discussion and I think the
format which we might use is to ask these people to speak as a panel to
some of these questions, to interact with each other initially for perhaps
the first half of the period that we have, and then we'll try to open it up and
make room for all sorts of comments and questions which could very well
at that time come into play.
00:02:16
The title that has been given to this particular section is that of, "Our
Forgotten Neighbors," and the lede, or the subtitle is, "The inadequacy of
Public and Community Services in the Ghettos." It seems to me that
there's hardly any rejoinder to this bleak fact that in our ghetto
communities our services are much less than adequate. Parks don't seem
to be nearly as common or as well kept up, playgrounds often are very
minimal if existing at all, swimming pools have closed, the quality of our
schools, many of these facilities are obsolescent [sic] or non-existent,
perhaps in area of social work there are problems here.
00:03:04
The problem of absenteeism, I think most of us would recognize
absenteeism of landlords, of teachers, absenteeism of social workers,
absenteeism of ministers. We all go back to our own worlds, we're not
there. Now I think maybe the best thing to do is just simply ask the people
to begin, and maybe it will begin with you Mr. Sample, just you with an
initial statement and then you can all react to each other and I'll try to stay
out of it as long as you keep this thing moving. Alright?
00:03:44
[Ronald Sample] Alright, [inaudible]. You want an initial statement from me
and I just got here? That's nice. [the audience laughs] Well I could do no
more than elaborate a little bit more on what you've already opened
discussion on. We all know that the areas which we're talking about are
greatly neglected.
00:03:55
[Myles Stenshoel] I think we're going to have a problem with that air
system. It's making an awful lot of noise. Maybe I can ask that you speak
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 2
a little louder and possibly it would be a good idea if you would stand for
these people.
00:04:13
[Ronald Semple] I was afraid you were going to say that. [the audience
laughs] There are great deal of problems that we have to overcome in
ghetto areas, you want to call it the ghetto area. This term ghetto, of
course, is being grossly misused, but for sake of identification we do use
the word “ghetto.” At any rate, as you have stated, parks, playgrounds,
other recreational areas do go lacking to a great degree in many of these
neighborhoods.
00:04:46
Also, there's another [Inaudible] to this whole thing that is extremely
important and perhaps we'll get into a discussion on that a little later, and
that is a problem of the welfare of people in relationship to the people in
these areas of we prefer to describe more or less as a poor neighborhood.
Certainly, we have found out in the recent months that the welfare worker
or the social worker you might call them that, have very little time or can
take very little time to do social work and this is had a great impact upon
the relationship between the people in the neighborhood and these social
workers.
00:05:23
A lot of problems to this one, and I think that everyone should become
aware of these problems and also by doing so, whatever means are
necessary I think we can start working out ways and means of correcting
this gross injustice or inadequacy in our social structure so with that I'm
going to sit down because I did not come here even prepared to
participate. I was going to sit out there with you and listen, but somebody
spotted me and I think I have on the wrong shirt this morning. [the
audience laughs] So I'm gonna let these other gentlemen here go ahead
and say what they have to say because I don't want to say anything wrong
here.
00:06:13
[Miles Stenshoel] Yep. Do you want to make a statement now? It might be
a good idea to stand so they can [inaudible].
00:06:19
[Gary Hines] The problems in the so-called “ghetto” are centered around
exploitation. In fact, if not the whole matter of the problem is exploitation.
You see, whenever there's a group of people on top, in order to stay on
top, they must exploit those below them, or else their position of
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 3
supremacy, you know, will no longer preside. So they must prey on those
subservient to them. In the so-called “ghetto” from which I came, in New
York, Harlem, you have to really live with it to know what you're talking
about really. I mean you can go in and look and study and do this and
that, but you don't really know until you live with it, you know, and know
what it really means to have a bottle of pop and one of these little tents
and cakes around here and that's your breakfast dinner and lunch for the
day.
00:07:21
Things like this come home you know, to who? Nobody's home, you know,
your mother's gone. She went, she took the baby to the hospital. You
know, the baby got better by a rat or something in this nature. Your
father's out, you know, playing the numbers doing this and that. All trying
to make some kind of life for his family. You see, Black people have never
really lived in this country we've only survived and it's a matter of survival
in the ghetto, survival of the fittest, and you see, this is why you can't be,
there's no such, I don't want anything about any Black men being dumb.
00:07:56
Undereducated yes, possibly, very possibly, but not dumb because you
can't be dumb and Black and survive in this country. Every Black man
alive today. [Applause] Every Black man alive today has to have some
very high degree of intelligence in order to, you know, survive in this racist
society. So you're looking to get on, what do you see? Vices of every sort,
but why? You know, you see militancy, why? You know, you see
prostitution, pimps, and all this mess, dope addiction, why? It wouldn't be
there unless it was a necessity.
00:08:37
People have to have something to grasp on, something to live with, you
know, and so with that, you know, general statement more or less about
conditions in the ghetto I guess turn it over to Mr. Andrews.
00:08:50
[Miles Stenshoel] We're gonna skip Mr. Andrews just briefly and we're
gonna jump over here to Reginald Berry.
00:09:01
[Reginald Berry] I belong to a group in Minneapolis which is known as
DECOY, Determined Ebony Council of Youth. One of our jobs is to get
Black people together. We feel that the problem for white people, like
Lillian Anthony said, was to get white people together. Our job is to get
Black people our age together. Black people, so that we can, we're the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 4
ones who know and you can be an adult and think what your child needs,
but we were the ones who were getting what you think we need, so we
feel that we have a better position, because we have, we're in a position to
get it. So we feel that we have enough sense the youth of our age, Gary is
in tenth grade, I'm a senior, the youth our age to think for our own selves.
00:09:42
So DECOY, one of the things we've done was we've had Malcolm X, this
parental excuse, that was through DECOY, Determined Ebony Council of
Youth. Martin Luther King will have that off, that was through DECOY,
Determined Ebony Council of Youth, and we're working on other projects
in the neighborhood. One thing I think that we have to realize is what a
ghetto really is. I think there is a dictionary, maybe the Webster New
World Dictionary says a “ghetto” is a group of ethnic people in a certain
area, therefore all over the country we've had Polish ghettos, we've had
Italian ghettos, Swedish ghettos, Harlem, before the Black man inhabited
in Harlem.
00:10:27
Harlem was owned by the Swedes, by the Germans, by the Irish, and then
came across the Black people. They were the last immigrants, or not
immigrants but people to inhabit Harlem. First, they were in Greenwich
Village and all over. See, Black people are on the boats unloading, I mean
on the shores unloading the Irish running from the potato famine,
unloading the boats for them so that they could settle in such areas as
Harlem before they ran [Inaudible] was the Germans.
00:10:55
Another thing I think we have to realize is whatever happens in
Minneapolis is gonna affect whatever happens in this state, whatever
happens in the state's gonna affect what happens in this country, and
whatever happens in this country affects what happens in the world,
therefore, white people try to get their self together in Minneapolis still be
doing a good justified thing because they'll be helping the state, therefore,
helping the world the whites all over the world.
00:11:30
Another problem that they say in the so-called “ghetto” is what I believe is
Black Power. Black people need power, black powers to control the
politics and politicians in their communities, control the businesses in their
communities, that's what's made the black ghetto in the first place. It's like
when you, a white person, owns a store in a black district ghetto, so-called
ghetto, what happens? You take your money from what you make from
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 5
your little job or what you got, the Black man has got from pimping or a
woman from prostituting or whatever it means they had to survive in its
society.
00:12:05
They take it to that store, what happens? The white person doesn't live in
that community, that poor Black community. He lives out in let's say no
offense on none of you, the suburbs, so what happens? He takes his
money that you give him to the suburbs and he spends out in the suburbs.
While the suburbs is getting richer and richer, the city, the so-called ghetto
is getting poorer and poorer. Therefore that neighborhood is poorer and
poorer. Like I said, it's control the politics and the politicians. You should
get somebody politically so that they can have something to do, so you
can get what you want through politics in that community.
00:12:44
For instance, over by Central High School, the railroad, streetcar tracks
that are still there, it's been ever since the streetcars disbanded. That's
one of the things that we need removed, let's say, that I know around
Central High School. Another thing we should learn in all the schools in
Minneapolis, all over the country, the history of so-called minority. I say
we're so-called because I believe minority, the people that they say we are
minorities, I believe we are in the majority. Because like I said, whatever
happens in the city affects the state, state the country, and the country,
the world.
00:13:15
There are more Black people in the world than there are white, so I
believe that I am a majority, not a minority. We should learn the history of
Black people all over the world, the history of the Indian, the Portuguese,
not Portuguese, the Spanish who came here, and who are also
oppressed. We should learn the history of them so that we can have more
respect for them as individuals and as people.
00:13:42
[Miles Stenshoel] Mr. Andrews.
00:13:14
[Harold Andrews] Well there's so many ways of approaching such a broad
subject as you have here. However, I'm interested in a couple of things.
Everyone has been talking about this word “ghetto” and as we use it, it's
for composing a certain element of people into one geographical area, and
it has its evils and it has it's good side.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 6
00:14:15
I'd like to relate to your story with my hometown which is Gary, Indiana.
Gary was founded in 1906 by Judge Elbert Gary and that city was built
around those steel mills for the purpose of having a community for the
men to live in to work in those mills. Well, we know the story of labor, we
know that even those of us who are uneducated could wield a hammer,
push a wheelbarrow or just scarf which is taking hot steel and throw it
around. This kind of work was available, so you found a lot of Black
people migrating from the South to the great North to get such jobs and as
this began to happen more and more would come. One fella come up,
say, "Well, this is pretty good, I'll send for old cousin Zeke and his eight
kids," and so he sent for Zeke.
00:15:08
Next thing you know, Black people started to just expand in that city, but
there's a peculiar thing about it. Just as they were just mentioning, they
were fused into an area of six square miles in that city and as they began
to diffuse and diffuse, they were spread out within the realms of this radius
and so what happened? We began to look around, and we realized that
out of the nine council medic districts in the city of Gary, Indiana, we were
living in six of them, but we didn't have any representation.
00:15:38
Here's a perfect example of black power. We got together and we decided
well, we've got to make the people aware of their political prowess, that
they have the power at this point, to put into office some of these people.
We're talking about political economies for as black power is concerned.
So the first year, myself and another gentleman ran for office and we
came in second to the incumbents. Then later you know what happened
we have a mayor there are now a black mayor, a black chief of police, a
black chief of the fire department, assistant chief is black, we got a black
echelon in a City Hall now, and it's what it should be.
00:16:12
Because the population there is and I quote, "Fifty-five black, thirty-five
white, and the rest is what they call undesirable." Well they must want to
be bad. I won't even mention who they are. However, this is an example of
black power, of how it can be used and how it can be turned around. The
ghetto can be used against. If the white mayor were really smart, the best
solution to his problem, which is the Black man is open occupancy
because when you put these people together they began to share
attitudes, they began to share frustrations, and it began to unite, and next
thing you know you've got explosions.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 7
00:16:59
Then you say it's an awful riot, but it's not a riot, it's a rebellion it's like a
coil spring. You just push it back so far and that's as far as it's gonna go
and it's coming back the other direction, and this is what's developing and
in that, and in reference to your social agencies there's a great exploitation
there. I thought that in my hometown and fact that I was running for the
office of township trustee, but I came here and found the same thing as
just as prevalent in Minneapolis, Minnesota. People have been exploited
tremendously by such agencies. Number one, your public relief. There we
found that people who had food vouchers would pay almost fifty percent
more than a person who paid cash for food.
00:17:43
Then there are certain stores that you had to go to and these stores are
being fed on the table through the administrator and they had a thing
going. The exploitation. And then if your family is starving. Now this is
supposed to be any immediate necessity in this particular office, this is
why I mention it. You walk up you say, "Well I need for right now. My
family's hungry. We don't have rent." "Well, would you fill out this form and
bring it back next week? and you're*" starving, and this is what's going on.
It would be funny if they were not so pathetic.
00:18:08
This such a thing is prevalent. As far as the welfare is concerned, I work
for the welfare department. I find the same thing prevalent here with your
welfare department and that's this: you give one caseworker a load of
cases. Now he's got to figure out a budget for all these people. Then here
comes food stamps now, so now he's got to make out a pink form for the
food stamps, and certify the family for food stamps, and then expect to
see 271 people out of 365 days regularly, and they all have their dire
needs, their immediate needs.
00:18:42
How can one individual do this? Then the budget is so is strained, why the
guy got a degree in social work or in sociology, why go to a Hennepin
County Social Work office when you get more money if you go to the
school board and you go elsewhere and get some fancy title and a big
salary you sit around and sign papers all day, so it's this thing, number
one, I think there should be more money and this comes to your county
board. There's too much political chicanery involved and these are the
things that cause exploitation. Some of these things are not black and
white issues. They are political issues. The issues that we need to just
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 8
clean up the city, polish it up, go into the administration and see what is
being done.
00:19:17
We're sitting here right now, I doubt if 7% of you are aware of the things
that are going on in your, just in your the Hennepin County Welfare
Department and you look at that poor caseworker and say why in the hell
aren't you doing your job, and they're doing the best they can do under
such circumstances, but you don't start at the top of the tree [inaudible]. I
know nothing about it but I know I wouldn't start looking at the leaf to cure
it. I'd go down at the trunk, go down at the roots, and this way we need to
start our administration as far as alleviating the things involved with our
case work and with our welfare.
00:19:56
Now just on a one-to-one basis, in the community you talk about our
neighbors this word is a word that has been tossed around as much as in
the other word it's a word like I'd say "table", "chair" and that's how I feel
about it now, this is what we feel about it. When you say neighbor it's just
an inanimate object, there's no compassion anymore for neighbor. This
I'm talking about his attitude. You know, one time Christ was asked who
his neighbor was and he told a story about the Samaritans and if you're
familiar with the mosaic dispensation of how things were in that particular
area, the Samaritans and the Jews had no dealings with one another. The
Samaritans weren't Orthodoxed and they were people who were looked
down upon. But he was a Samaritan, one who was an outcast in such
society, such as a Black man who came along and helped this man who's
supposed to be more privileged than he. This is, he said, is his neighbor.
00:20:4
Now you want to know, who are our neighbors? No more are our
neighbors the people offered lip service, no more are our neighbors the
people who shake their heads with sympathy, but our neighbors are the
people who help us as we struggle on this journey, along this road, as a
man did the way [inaudible], who really give us the aid you say what kind
of aid? I don't think I'd have to duplicate what Mrs. Anthony's already said.
That's one way and this is one way to affect attitudes, now what I have
found, as far as attitudes concerned is this, from when in such a meeting
as we are now it is so easy to get anyone of you who are white to stand up
and say such adequate eloquent words about, "I believe," and "This is
what we should do," but when you're among all white company, do you
have the courage to maintain that same attitude?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 9
00:21:40
I am in such a position to know that in most cases you do not. I have
talked to people who were sincere enough to tell me that when they get
into all-white company and they began to discuss these things, "I might
say well the n****** are looking for a handout," and I'm quoting something
which I'm going to tell you about a little later, and you say well, yeah that's
right, and you get right it with them. It takes courage. What am I saying?
00:22:03
Belief is not enough, belief is not sufficient. It takes faith in what you're
doing, not belief. I often demonstrate to my congregation that I could say
to all of you, and probably convince you to an extent, but I believe that this
chair will hold me, but until I execute my faith, and sit down in this chair,
you cannot say that my belief is worth a thing.
00:22:33
[Miles Stenshoel] Okay very good now we've had a number of things
approached here. I wonder if I might, well maybe we ought to go back
here to Mr. Sample. You did say that you wanted to say something more
about social work. Did you not suggest that?
00:22:48
[Ronald Sample] I said I hoped we would get into it.
0022:50
[Miles Stenshoel] Maybe it would be a good idea, I think that this is time to
ask ourselves some questions about, or for you to interact some on the
question of social work and problems that might be here. Now whether
you have any suggested solutions.
00:223:09
[Ronald Sample] Well Mr. Andrews touched upon it as well, very well. The
point of it is, is it is an attitude or practice, which we don't seem to realize
in our social structure, our social welfare structure, that actually we
criticize the people for being on welfare then penalize them for trying to
get off, and this is kind of ridiculous, not only that, our social welfare
system is based on an intentional seem to be seemingly intentionally to
break up the family. One of the most ironic things is that in order for a
mother or a family who needs the help to get for instance money that the
father cannot make enough money because of the inability to get the kind
of employment in order to be able to take care of his family.
00:23:59
The system is now structured so he has to leave home. He has to sit down
in the living room with his wife and say, "Look, I can't make enough money
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 10
to feed my family, you can get more on ADC [Aid for Dependent Children].
I'm going to leave home, you file for divorce and then go and get on ADC."
In other words, we actually encourage the man, the breakup of the family,
then we criticize his mother for getting on ADC. Now she's on ADC,
maybe she doesn't like to be on ADC and we found and in our experience
that generally, they do not. But if she has the intestinal fortitude to go out
and try to find a job, she has to find a job good enough to compensate for
the losses she's going to experience when she gets that job or else it's a
financial risk for her to take the job and this is what I meant by we criticize
them for being on relief and then we turn right around and penalize them
for trying to get off, so on top of that we are encouraging the break up of
the family.
00:25:09
So to me, this is a very strong part of the necessity of changing this
particular structure in our welfare system. Also Mr. Andrews pointed out
the interesting fact that we have far too many caseloads per caseworker.
These people go to college for 4 years to learn how to do social work and
they turn out to be nothing but an accountant investigator in the home, and
have no time whatsoever to counsel these people and to help them when
they need help. This is my indictment of our social structure.
00:25:44
[Harold Andrews] I mean this is not hypothetical, this is a case, a case that
I had. There was a young lady who had graduated from high school and
had been put in just such circumstances that her husband had left home.
After what she applied for AFDC [Aid to Families with Dependent Children]
upon her application she was accepted and she moved into governmental
housing also. Number one, she was a kind of person, she comes from a
fine home. She liked to live good. she bought a television. They want to
know where she got the money to get a television.
00:26:22
This is just one little minor thing. Then she had been taken a nursing
course but she had completed it, she went down and got a part-time job at
Methodist Hospital, and the money that she was making at the hospital, it
was a supplementary sort of thing, but what did a case what I have to do?
Counterbalance that to her budget what she was received from welfare.
Consequently, she said I may as well just sit home and then just make the
money I'm making no more because they're taking it off of what I'm
making on my relief, you know from my welfare. This is a thing to keep a
person on welfare, to alleviate poverty you should create a system, a
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 11
program within the system, in which you could have people to go to to
graduate until they are off but as it is now you must stay poor to keep the
exploiters in business you got to stay poor.
00:27:13
You guys tell me I'm not a very interesting factor and I've questioned
Congressman Fraser last week when he was here about this. The Bureau
of Labor Statistics along with your USDA statistics United States
Department of Agriculture Statistics state that they consider family of
poverty to be making $3,500. Each year, those of us who are employed,
fortunately, who do earn a living, every year we get an annual increase in
cost of living, but that has not been increased as far as the poor man's
concerns since 1959. In other words, we make more because you know
cost of living.
00:27:53
Isn't the cost of living going up for the poor people? So still, to qualify
even, not only for AFDC, you take the kids. I work with kids in the school,
to get on in the neighborhood youth court to work, your family has to make
this. A family making $4,000 is just as poor as the $3,500 and you know it,
you couldn't live on $4,000. I can't by myself, and this is what I'm saying,
the thing is so structured that the poor, they'd say this about Republicans
but I won't say this by Republicans, I just said generally, the poor get
poorer the rich get richer and this is the way the thing is set up. This is
where the structure of this thing is, and I think if there's something to be
done, if that's somewhere not just a point a finger, but some source in
which we can approach to really alleviate such a situation, and so that we
can't say that people are in poverty and they don't want to get to, you
know, we got a lot of this Calvinistic Puritanism going around too, that
those people are just destined to be that way and we are destined to be
this way, which is ridiculous, but we find it in Congress.
00:28:58
This is why you have some congressmen saying, "We don't want to pass it
more bills on poverty. We have to get to the source," and the source is
getting to your county board or getting right there in Congress, which is
pretty difficult now, let's not be ridiculous, let's look at the county board
level and get such things, alleviate, and as we say, as Reggie has said, if
we can get it done here, then it will affect the state and it will affect other
areas and perhaps it can be done all over the country, but I must also
come in. I want to commend this city, in spite of all of these things that are
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 12
here, I found in my traveling all over this country, Minneapolis, Minnesota
by far is the number one city as far as I'm concerned.
00:29:13
Here, I see progress moving more tremendously than anywhere in this
country, but that has no means or no reason for us to stop, but we must
continue to be, to remain on top.
00:29:50
[Miles Stenshoel] May I ask a sort of a general question here, any of you
want to say more here that's fine, but it seems to me that we often get the
impression that great numbers of people in this country have become, well
the nice word would be disenchanted with the establishment or the various
political establishments and have more or less thrown up their hands and
said what's the use of trying to work through the establishment.
00:30:16
Now. I've noticed, at least from some of the comments this morning, that
that utter hopelessness does not seem to be present here, that there may
be some possibilities. Now can we ask this general question about
whether you think that the means of meeting these problems is, via
various establishments; political, economic, and otherwise. Can we reform
them? Are they reformable? Or is the exploitation of such a sort that these
things have to be shaken, not not just shaken, but perhaps even
destroyed and other forms take their place?
00:31:01
It seems to me that there's been, let me say, sort of an optimistic
conservatism here, representative in what you have said, Mr. Andrews,
and perhaps also Mr. Sample. What do you think about this, panel
generally, I know Gary, you haven't had a chance to say anything since
you started, maybe we ought to not discriminate [audience laughs] against
the youth here either, perhaps give our high school representatives a
chance to say something.
00:31:32
[Gary Hines] Well you said a mouthful, could you put it in one question,
that I could, you know.
00:31:40
[Miles Stenshoel] Well! [the audience laughs] Gary, is there any hope, is
there any hope working through the establishments that we have, that is
the political processes. Can we sufficiently reform the political processes
or meet the problems through the political process, do you see hope here?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:32:02
Oh, yes I see hope. I see who has a Black man, and when you see him as
a Black man, that's a pretty broad range because when you're in a
position of subservience and for such a long period of time, you know, 400
years to be exact, you see hope and a whole lot of things, and you have to
differentiate between that which is superficial and that, you know, which is
meaningless, so as for the, you know, going through politics, it's possible
and I do see a certain amount of hope in it, but one thing has to be done.
00:32:40
We have to start getting some black politicians, you know, up in some of
these positions because you just don't do things the way they are now,
you know, have a white man speak for Black people, come in look at the
so-called ghetto and to tell the truth aren't enough black people of
Minnesota to make up a real ghetto, but come in look, observe, you know,
in all this mess, copy down data, data whatever you want to call it, take
notes and come back and report to his little group and all of a sudden he's
an authority on Black people. Nowadays they have such thing, and I don't
use the word, but this is a terminology they use, "Negro psychologists,"
"Negro sociologists," you know, you come in you know like we're some
kind of animals you know things of this nature.
00:33:25
But as we're seeing politics as the direct means, you have to include
politics and naturally, you know my definition of black power is political,
psychological, 0 social, and economical advancement for Black people by
Black people by any means necessary. So if politics is one of the more
pleasant means than so be it. But if politics takes too long like it has been
doing you know passing bills to make people human, human rights bill
taking the country where the red man and then tells them he has to do a
certain thing before he's a citizen that's what your politics is gonna do, you
know, forget it you know give it to us [inaudible], we know how to handle
things of this nature.
00:34:09
[Reginald Berry] You got remember there was no noise made until they
had the so-called riot which we call social, economical revolutions. They
didn't pass things, people weren't congregating in rooms like this all over
the country or until after the so-called riots and then you remember as
soon as the riot happened to Detroit the first thing that this government did
was pas an anti-riot bill. That's gonna stop people from rioting. It was in
the newspaper, in the black, there's a part of the south which they call the
black belt world.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:34:45
Black people are congregated in a certain area among cities, I think, and
states. Am I correct? Remember when the Civil Rights bill was being
passed in 1964, the same people who are who are trying to stop the Civil
Rights bill from being passed were the people, the white politicians, from
that area of the Black Belt. This is the way our government was set up.
They tell us that the South lost the war and look who we had running for
president, two people from the South. Two. I don't care, two which I say
are more racist; Johnson and Goldwater. You could have a person that's
Goldwater or Wallace right now who is a segregationist and he's almost in
a position where he can announce he's going to run for president.
00:35:27
This is the way this government is built up. Through politics it takes
something like a social economic revolution to bring about the freedom of
Black people in America. When I say Black people I say anything that isn't
white, because anything that isn't white has been exploited by white
people. That's why I say it has to start from the grassroots level, for me I
have to start within yourself. White people, there wouldn't be no problem
at all if white people weren't racist, that's where it all started from the first,
besides the slaves back there. Wouldn't be no problems there one for
people who we got in position as president [inaudible] sell out things like
that.
00:36:07
This isn't our country, this isn't our government. Where everything we say
is America is our country, it's our country right or wrong it should be, is our
country right or wrong, because if you learn the history of the so-called
minority people or Black people in America in the world you find out that
our country hasn't been right a whole lot of times. If it has we wouldn't be
in this predicament we are in today. This is something we have to look
within ourseves and realize is there a solution to the problem.
00:36:35
I find the solution to the problem is right here in our high school in our
colleges. I find talking to high school students and college students, there
are more not really sympathetic more speaking out for Black people for
the impression that they've had for all these years than these older adults.
What can we do, we got like I said, you get the people high schools and
college students you 0 know what the problem is because you see more
of the problem because you're getting a little bit more, like I said,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 15
communication is bringing a problem to you. So what you got to do, you
got to educate.
00:37:08
You got to look around you and see the situations and you got to do
something about them that work with us work, and you know, be the
leaders of us but work with us side-by-side.
00:37:21
[Ronald Sample] I'd like to speak to this hope bit as well. Naturally, when
you have light there's hope if you feel that there is no hope the person who
feels hopeless gives up, but a person who feels that there is hope
continues the struggle now he takes his struggles as he sees it, as he
sees is necessary to take them. Twenty years ago we were trying to
communicate in that nice easy way [inaudible] almost the prayerful look,
nobody listened. What are you saying about our good old people here in
America we can't do good talk, sweet talk just doesn't get it, only anything
it guesses a girl. But when it comes to rights or it becomes to creating a
situation to eliminate injustice for justice. For some reason or another we
can't listen in America. It takes an act.
00:38:22
It takes the sledgehammer between the mule's eyes in order to get your
attention, and if it has to be the violence which seems to be your means of
communication then that's the way it is. Certainly we have tried to
communicate with you in so many ways to show you that we didn't want to
join the establishment and that many times before I had listened to many
of the Black leaders say they didn't want to change the establishment,
they only wanted to be a part of it, that they wanted to share in the fruits of
the economy. However, today we feel that perhaps it is a necessity to
change a few things, certainly any action that we take in a political action
or any other kind of an action is an action for change whether we can do it
within the structure as it has been pointed out remains a good deal in
white America's hands, in your hands.
00:39:20
It's according to how you're listening and it's according to how well we can
communicate with each other and with how you can communicate with
yourselves. Certainly if you're not understanding what it is that we're trying
to say, by word, then some kind of action has to be taken in order to get
your attention, and so we do think that there is perhaps some hope so that
this can be worked out, but we don't believe now that it can be done
entirely within the establishment. There has to be changes.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:39:54
[Miles Stenshoel] Do you have any more you can add on?
00:39:56
[Harold Andrew] Well I want to say that I believe indubitably that this is
definitely an era of Renaissance and as Mr. Sample has said, we are a
nation who respond to violence. Our history tells this, the reformation of
industry, of labor and capitalism in the city, capital I meant to say, in this
country was a result of riots, those of us who can recall and it has always
been this sort of spontaneous action that has really gotten attention, but
I'm looking at even something more important. This is a element of a
different texture, one that is so foolish, you see, discrimination, I see
nothing wrong with discrimination.
00:40:51
I discriminate, but it's the thing that you base your discrimination on. Is
there certain people that I definitely will not socialize with because we
have nothing in common, there are people who I can go backwards by
myself I don't want anybody help me go backwards. I discriminate from
those type of people. I discriminate with the man who has no ambition,
what can we meet socially, but he could be black, blue, purple, or green.
It's the thing that I discriminate upon, not his colour. As I walked into us
the high school I was investigating racism, and when I walked into the
door I was discriminated against.
00:41:29
They didn't know whether I was Jewish, Protestant, Catholic, what didn't
know if I was rich or poor, a fool, or wise but they knew one thing when I
hit that door I was black and right away that attitudes began to form the
new animosities began to come as I walked into the principal's office, one
of the faculty say, "Hey, a little civil rights action, huh," tongue-in-cheek
thing, and this is where I'm saying, it's so foolish. If I had two glasses here
a white glass and a black glass and you wanted to drink and there were
holes in the white glass, and the black glasses in perfect condition, would
you refuse the one that was perfect because it was black and drink out of
the white?
00:42:12
No, it was because of what the thing could do, and this is what we we look
so foolish in it so child it's the way we base these little idiosyncrasies on,
our discriminations upon. When we look at a person because they're
black, this is the attitude that we want to discourage. Personality we know
they're people. The other thing I detest is for a white person to walk up to
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 17
me and say, "Man, I like colored people," because it's something I can't
stand. But let's be, if we gotta be [inaudible] let's be [inaudible], let's be
candid about the situation and let's look at it and be more realistic is what
I'm saying as far as the structures concerned, as far as the system is
concerned, there's definite reformation in the system, because at this time,
no more will it be done through legislature, no more will it be done by the
bureaucrats, but by people like us, after all, we are the government.
00:43:03
Originally we were the government, but now it's one individual who goes
and sits in a seat and talks and says things that you may not even believe
in and votes for you. We must begin to put pressures. If we really feel this
as a people that we want such a thing done that we must affect our
legislature to the extent that he cannot go and legislate acts that we do
not, that are, that we feel that we don't want to be legislated. This is why I
must start here, and I have all the faith in the world in youth I believe that
this question will be alleviated and will be brought done by you, will be
done by the youth of today this generation because I see my hope is in
this generation as Berry has said. I have very little faith in the generation
that superseded me, but we're young people, we're gonna get it done
that's all.
00:43:58
[Miles Stenshoel] Well, I want to open it up now to responses, questions,
comments, or whatever kinds of responses you think. I'd like to accept my
own invitation first [audience laughs] with a couple of specific questions.
That's something that I've got going for me by sitting up here. With respect
to this question of the political participation and leadership, Black
leadership, now let me raise a question here in the context of the Twin
Cities area.
0044:32
We have a Metropolitan Council which has no governmental powers
really, though some people hope it will have more governmental powers.
Now there might be a, it might be true, if we were to have, work toward
develop a truly metropolitan area government for Minneapolis-St. Paul and
their suburbs with some kind of a common tax base and a common
acceptance of what are really all of our problems, that then the suburbs
would feel more a part of the whole thing, that we might be able to do
something here. It might be a plus thing.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:45:11
On the other hand, this would dilute Black power in terms of voting block
or in terms of something like this is. Is there any response that any of you
have to that?
00:45:23
[Reginald Berry] First of all, Minneapolis, in the south side of Minneapolis,
Black people are not congregated in one certain area. You may think
they're congregated on Fourth Avenue, but that's not true no more.
There's no certain area in Minneapolis, south side of Minneapolis there's
Black people spread out all over, one of the main issues that we feel
DECOY, feels is that the suburbs are getting paid to schools, the teachers
are getting paid more to teach out in the suburbs than they do in the city,
therefore if a teacher graduates from say Augsburg College and he's a
good teacher he's not gonna want to teach in the city because there's no
money in the city, so one of the one of the main, to get around, one of the
main issues is to get somebody you know all over the schools, the school
districts, all over the state to get the schools ran by statewide basis.
00:46:14
[Gary Hines] Once again you sort of said a mouthful, could you put it in
one specific question? [audience laughs]
00:46:19
Well, what would metropolitan government, the whole metropolitan area,
would this help or hinder from the solution of these problems?
00:46:32
They would hinder it definitely. I'll tell you why, first of all, I'd like to draw a
little synopsis between some clothes and human beings. Okay, I'll speak
up. If I go into a laundry to to get some clothes clean and I have one load
of white clothes and one load of black clothes now the object is to get both
sets of clothes clean, however, I find that if I put both sets of dirty clothes,
white and black, in the same washer, they not only do not become clean
but when I take them out of the washer I find that they have each other's
lint on them, I find that the white one is all grayed up from the black, I find
that the black one is all grayed up from the white, I find that everyone's all
linen and dotted up, and things are worse then when I put them in there.
00:47:33
However, I find that when I put the right one in the washer, get it clean and
put the black clothes in the washer and get them clean and get them all
dried up, then I can put them in the same basket together. Now what does
this say? The lint represents animosities between white and black. Now on
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 19
the white side, white people are still two races, you've just found that out,
you know, with the President's Advisory Commission report.
00:47:58
Black people have known it for four hundred years, [audience laughs] and
Black people, you know, seeing the fact that we know this, Black people
are too bitter. Now you just don't mix bitterness and ignorance, you see.
You have to get each, you see, that's the so-called liberal. I hate to offend
any liberals here, but to me there is no such animal really. Now, what has
to be done--so many white people find out a little bit about the situation
and all of a sudden become authorities, but we won't get into that--find out
about it and the first thing they want to do is rush into the Black community
arms open, wallets open, pockets open. “What can I do? I've been wrong
so long.” Just trying to throw this over Black people and like I said, Black
people are too bitter.
00:48:49
Nine out of ten times until you go home, [inaudible] we don't want you.
See things like this, why one it's time for the Black man to stand up on its
own two feet. We've been waiting on the white man too long, too every
time he sees a white face it represents everything he's fighting for, you
see, not so much you and your white skin, but what your white skin has
enveloped in the past you see and held over Black men, so when you
come up there with your white face, arms open, wallets open, “what can I
do?”
00:49:23
You know what you can do, go out in your own communities as the man
mentioned before, anybody can stand up with the elegance, you know, of
a Frederick Douglass or a Patrick Henry, in your case [audience laughs]
and before a group of Black people and you know spout off at the mouth
about how much they love this and how much they know this is wrong and
mess of this nature. But what about when you get out in your own
communities, you have to get out into your own communities. We've got a
lot of cleaning up to do among ourselves. You see this is a revolution.
Revolution comes from evolution which means change, you know, gradual
change, only our change is changing a little bit faster than revolutions in
the past, you see, we have to redefine our set of values, which is why
nowadays you see the natural look.
00:50:09
You know, the long kinky curly whatever you want to call it hair. You see,
we're trying to redefine our own set of values so far as beauty goes and
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 20
you know [inaudible] and things of this nature. The reason why we've been
straightening the hair with the various lyes, permanence, hot combs in this
nature is because ever since, say the Black woman, has been able to read
or look in a magazine you know Seventeen, or COED, or In-Co Out-Co
[audience laughs] every depiction of beauty is white and has long flowing
hair. Well like I said this is a revolution and you know things are changing.
Now we're saying that black is beautiful what we have what we're proud
and you know yours is no better than ours.
00:50:52
So as for you know people coming in, we've been exploited too long as
soon as Black people try to get together and see your white face there,
they're gonna expect the exploitation and white people have been doing it
so long they may be doing it unconsciously, so we better, like I said get in
our own washers and get our own selves right separately.
00:51:13
[Miles Stenshoel] Okay now I'm going to forego my other question
because I gotta get you in here. I want to remind you of these gentlemen's
names so that if you wish you may address your questions or comments
to particular persons. Mr. Berry, Mr. Andrews, Mr. Hines, and Mr. Sample.
Berry, Andrews, Hines, and Sample, and Don Nichols had his hand up
first. I'm going to ask for this question.
0051:36
[Donald Nichols] It seems to me that one of the things that's been
mentioned several times is this business of black heritage, and I was
wondering what would be the best way to get this black heritage known? It
seems to me that at Augsburg College we should probably have a course,
something along this line, specifically oriented toward expounding this and
I was wondering how you felt about approaching it on this level or what
level do you feel is best? No one in particular.
00:52:10
[Reginald Berry] One of the things we did was, DECOY did, when we went
before the school board [audience laughs, possibly from something that
happened in the room] we got history. True history. One of the things we
said that we wanted true history taught in all the public schools. The
problem is from K through 12 when you're coming up through grade
school the first thing when you learn how to read, you read about Dick and
Jane, you know Dick and Jane out in the suburbs [audience laughs] with a
fine pretty dog, you know everything's mellow. So you know right away
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 21
the black youth has nothing to relate to and the white has nothing to relate
to with the black.
00:52:49
So, what they did, what they're doing now I believe in some of the great
schools they got integrated Dick and Jane books. [audience laughs] Right,
I don't know about the suburbs. Yeah, they're still in the suburbs. [he
laughs] One of the things, another thing is like K through 12 the problem,
like say you take up grass or weed don't cut the weed off at the top and
expect the weed not to grow no more you got to get down to the root of
the problem, the root of the problem is when the youth is young, when he's
coming up. You know, it's funny when a person never, when you're young
you can play with white kids and you see no difference, but as soon as
you start going to school, then you start seeing the difference.
00:53:26
Your mother says you can't play with him no more or their mother says
they can't play with you no more, things like that. It doesn't start until you
start getting in schools, when you start getting related to all these books
so what you gotta do, history's got to be taught. One of the things we said,
yeah, was K through 12 true history taught. History of Black people,
contributions that they've made, tell you we always talked about Charles
Drew because that makes me mad every time I think about it. He was the
inventor of blood plasma, a Black man, he in 1948, he got in a car
accident out in, I believe it was Georgia. What happens, he went to a
white hospital, they wouldn't serve him, all he needed was blood plasma
the invention that he had, invention that he made and what happens on
his way en route to a black hospital, he died.
00:54:11
So what we gotta do, we got to start getting these things together while
we're down here. Your little brother, you got to start letting him know.
That's why I believe it's in us, it's in us youth, that this problem is gonna be
solved. You wanna know what history do? You can find history books as
black men anywhere. One of the greatest books is, to me is “Before the
Mayflower” by Lerone Bennett, but then you can't stop at that book. You
got to start reading on and on about the Black man. I was lucky, I got
learned and so are most Black people they taught me white history in
school.
00:54:41
I learned about Patrick Henry's great statement, "liberty or death,"
"taxation without representation is tyranny." Black people been taxed
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 22
without being represented since they've been here. He didn't say nothing
about that or liberty or death, that's all they're crying in the so-called
ghettos, "Liberty or death."
00:55:00
[Crosstalk as the panelists decide who will speak]
00:55:05
[Harold Andrews] This is important I would say, but we say the basis of
this society is education, and yet it's the most outmoded facility. I guess
you're aware of this. Even in reading, we have gone back to the original
form of teaching kids to read. Now it's a very vital issue here at hand. I
was looking at a test yesterday, not a test but a survey and the question
was, I just wouldn't answer because of this the question kept talking about,
'Did I think that the culturally deprived children...?' I don't believe there's
such a thing as cultural deprivation, but cultural differences and this where
education must come in to let you know, because we don't learn by white
standards, we're deprived when really white Americans deprive because
they must learn of out standards and let them know there is a dual
standard, that we do have a heritage.
00:55:52
This is the essence of education in the schools, but it must go beyond the
schools. It didn't begin all in the schools as Gary was mentioning. While
psychologically, or socio-psychologically, we could say that what is known
as the the Negro self complex or the self-hatred complex which is
devolved from this is gathered at an early age, a kid's looking at television
and he sees the start. Everything is white, the hero is always white, and
the Black man his eyes get bold and hair is kinky hair straightens out and
he runs. [another panelist says something inaudible and the audience
laughs] Right, nothing to relate to. When they look at Tarzan as a beautiful
example.
00:56:37
Here's a native with a g-string on [audience laughs] and he's got a spear
with the head if he did that it would fall off and he's running from a lion in a
jungle--incidentally lions don't even live in the jungle that's a plains animal
if you know a thing about Africa. But anyhow, he runs it along comes a
white man on a vine screaming out a God curdling sound, no weapon,
he's got a knife. I never see him pull it out til he gets to the water with the
alligators and he says “Ungawah.” and the lion walks away. [Laughter]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 23
00:57:14
And there's a kid looking at this he's looking at this, a black kid, and he's
saying, Man, I ain't nothing. This is what he begins to think, he begins to
develop this self age of complex, so he begins to socially interact with
whites, he says, "I want to be white," because this is white but also the
white, this is what you're not looking at. The white kid is victimized too,
because as he looks at the same thing, this connotation is this that of
whiteness, that I could be an idiot but if I'm white I can make it and he's
right too, the way this thing is structured, the way our society is structured,
and then there is this unconscious development of black and white.
00:57:53
There are over 200 synonyms which depict black as ugly, a man who is
ousted from a union. He can't get a job anywhere, he's blackballed and we
know darn well black has nothing to do with not getting a job. Oh yes it
does, I'm sorry--but you see what I'm saying. “Blackmailed,” you can just
think of all kinds of words like this, this unconscious development of it, so
yes, we must start an institution and we're behind, and we're the basis, the
universities and the schools are the basis of education in society. The
basis of the structure of it and yet, we're so far behind that you got to
broaden a community like we're doing right now to find out about
blackness when it should start right here. I agree with you, and we're
doing it in a school system.
00:58:36
[Ada Deer, in the audience] I was wondering what you think about getting
the Black community and the Indian community together. I work in both
groups, and I find when I’m in one community I’m definitely, in that
community, isolated in the other Indian community, isolated in the Black
community, I’m talking about the other side. In both communities.
00:58:57
[Reginald Berry] That’s two different heritages.
00:58:58
[Ada Deer] It’s not! It’s not. My idea is one community. I mean, that’s what
I think would be ideal. [panelists speak to one another while the audience
member is speaking] But was wondering if you think at this point, using
your analogy about mixing clothes, black and white clothes, you think that
red clothes should not be in that mix too.
00:59
[Reginald Berry] See Black people have a whole lot of colors: black, red,
and yellow, and brown, so when we say “Black people” this is my
connotation, when I say black I mean anything that isn't white, because
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 24
that's what it is. White people are not white then you take to the extreme.
Someone may be pink as rose flowers or or so on, gray as a ghost. The
white people are not white but they relate to the extreme which is white.
Put up to a just sheet of paper and none of you are white. Black people, a
lot of Black people, are not black, but they relate to extreme which is
black. You say Indian mixed Indians and Black people together, you know,
you try to change white Indians and black? Dirty clothes, they've both
been exploited by white people. They both have a different heritage,
different backgrounds.
01:00:04
[Ada Deer] But do you think they can be brought together?
01:00:06
[Harold Andrews] We work together.
01:00:07
[Reginald Berry] We work together. We have, what's his name?
01:00:09
[Harold Andrews] Gray?
01:00:09
[Reginald Berry] Gray. [Inaudible]
01:00:12
[Harold Andrews] Harold?
01:00:13
[Reginald Berry] Yeah.
01:00:14
[Harold Andrews] We have, we work together--this is not, this is what--
01:00:17
[Ada Deer] Where is your Indian Representative today? [presumably she
is addressing Miles Stenshoel about the composition of the panel]
01:00:19
[Harold Andrews] Do you want us to live together, is that what you mean?
You say “today.”Did you invite the Indian?
01:00:24
[Miles Stenshoel] Yeah.
01:00:26
[Ada Deer] Yeah, he was invited. Now yes, yes you do live together
already on the Northside I know. But I definitely feel the barrier here--
01:00:32
[Reginald Berry] White people live on the Northside too.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 25
01:00:33
[Ada Deer] Pardon?
01:00:35
[Reginald Berry] White people live on the Northside too.
01:00:35
[Ada Deer] And white people, you’re right.
01:00:36
[Unidentified panelist] And they're exploited.
01:00:38
And I definitely feel barriers there.
01:00:38
[Harold Andrews] Well alright I'll tell you this. The Indian isn't here, my
grandpa's an Indian. I'll represent him.
01:00:47
[Laughter and applause]
01:00:52
[Harold Andrews] I'll give you a little Indian history a little exploitation. How
many of you familiar with the Cherokee march in Georgia? When
Cherokees were based right in Georgia, had land given to them by the
federal government, and when they were trapped they tried to throw them
off, take them off of this land and put them on other reservation for us it
was too [inaudible]. Anyway you want in a map if you want to know the
worst land in this country, the less productive, the most desolate just all
you have to do is get you an Indian territorial map and that's where it is.
This is what they've done to this man. They put him on this land and he's
got to till it he's got to make it produce, but no they had a nice piece in
Georgia and what happened? They were forced off, but they used the
white man's structure, they used the reformation, they went along with the
bureaucrats and they went through the federal courts and went up to the
high pillar councils and they won their case.
01:01:51
They won their case. General Grant was president at this time and the
federal court said that they had a right to stay there. You know what Grant
said? The president said, "All right you gave him this, you gave him these
rights now you help them stay there," and he had his troops to take these
people on a forced march. One thousand of them died and then as they
were marching along whites would come on taking their horses, taking
their property, and no one to defend them. [Inaudible] marched them off
this land. This is what's happened to the red man. You wonder why the
red man as you depict him the vanishing American with his horse tail took
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 26
his head drooped. Here's a man who has more of a gripe than anybody
here. He is the only man who can say he is an American.
00:02:36
He was here before, while the Black man came a year before the white
man came in 1519, a Black man was here as an indentured servant
working this land. Next year here come the pilgrims. All right, ever since
that time this man has been given the worst bit of it. This man has been
felt that he's had a part of defeat and not until now, not until now, you see,
here's a thing, let's look at it for like it is, you said [inaudible] doesn't have
any get up and go. You ask George Custer how much get up and go he
had, but you see when he did fight, it's the same thing we've been doing it
all through history when we we rebel, you call it a riot, when the Indians
attacked the white man and that time, it was a massacre, when he
attacked us it was a victory, you see what I'm saying? So yeah it's a
history.
01:03:23
Now as far as working together, we're definitely working together. Harold
Goodsky who I want you to hear him speak, I wish he were here now. A
very impressive speaker but to heck with speaking, we got things we're
doing. No it ain't in the Tribune every day, it's not in the Star, but that's not
where it's at. We got action moving and as Barry said, when we said
“black,” we're talking about the Indian, the Puerto Rican, any other
minority group as you so call us, and if they're out here they're
represented and that's why I want to go on record right now as
representing them because we're not speaking, we say black would mean
black, red, and every other color.
01:03:56
[Inaudible question from audience]
01:04:11
[Gary Hines] [Inaudible] has told me that teachers get paid more because
there's some law that was passed while the suburbs were growing get
more, paid more for each student out in the suburbs that they teach.
01:04:27
They, recently--this is a recent raise in the school system and six to seven
hundred dollars now, which is quite a bit more, it's not the teachers, it's
just the institution itself and it that's a different, a separate system from the
the Minneapolis Public School system and this is actually the problem. In
relations to the Alsop and Pettigrew debate about schools, quality of
schools, and Pettigrew says that we should bus them. But I go along with
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 27
Alsop and along with, what's-his-name, well anyhow! This is what he said.
"It's not the color of the school, but the quality of it." When we say quality,
we not only mean the facilities we're far less facilitated than the [inaudible]
suburban schools you know this. I was in Edina last week, Edina High
School and it looks better than Augsburg to tell you the truth, [audience
laughs]
01:05:20
And then, I mean they've got just tremendous things at their disposal. Now
these things [inaudible] We got a few talking typewrites coming into our
system [inaudibe] over negotiate on that few things, but still, that's just
facilities. It must be quality also in the teacher. Now as fas as the
sensitivity is speaking of I assume, I think that [inaudible] going along with
the young man's question over here. Right here, you should get some
exposure to what's going on there and even in your practice teaching, why
don't you go to a ghetto school and get some exposure?
01:05:55
[Ronald Sample] I'd like to answer to your question too. I don't know
where your statistics or figures are from, but I've talked with many
teachers here and they have admitted to me that they can get paid more
in suburban schools than they can in the city schools and these are
people who ought to know they were the ones who get [inaudible]. In fact,
one lady told me she wanted to teach in Hopkins because she's gonna get
more money and have better equipment and better facilities and easier
children to teach.
01:06:20
[Inaudible response from the audience]
01:06:29
[Ronald Sample] One teacher that I knew quite well left from the suburbs
and Hopkins and she was maybe nine thousand dollars a year.
01:06:41
[Harold Andrews] There's a difference, yeah, but the top the level isn't as
high as the suburban.
01:06:44
[Miles Stenshoel] One last question, I don't know to whom to turn here is
there one last question? Okay, one last question.
01:06:53
I was just curious. It's been brought up that the welfare system is so
inequitable and so poorly constructed. In what way can we affect this
now? Should we write our congressmen or how can this be?
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 28
01:07:12
This is the way it is going to have to be done. As we have tried to point out
and reason why I'm very familiar with this I have just recently had
conferences with the entire staff of the Hennepin County welfare and do
almost to a person we agree about these particular handicaps: Number
one; they are tied by whatever our national policies happen to be in
welfare work. They are just workers, they have to do what they're told to
do so not we do have to work this through our legislation we have to be
aware of where the injustices lie in our welfare system and it has to go
through our legislative processes to get it corrected. These particular
problems [inaudible] is our welfare really helping these people or is it
actually really giving them to a subservient situation out of which they find
almost no means of getting out of it?
01:08:03
[Inaudible] we have a good welfare system. It will help the needy people,
but it will not be a hindrance to them helping themselves when they so
desire to do so and most of them do. I've met very few people on welfare,
and I talked to quite a few, who want to stay there. A man wants to be a
man, a woman wants to be a woman. They don't want to have to go
around feeling they have to live on handouts all their lives, but our welfare
system has put them in this bag and has allowed them no way out.
01:08:33
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:08:48
[Harold Andrews]And young man, if you want to pursue this I want to give
you a little something else to take along. There's an element or segment in
the poverty level that is totally ignored. Welfare is designed now it's two
elements; the family who does not have a head of a household who
cannot survive and the old people, the aged. This is all they support and
as a third segment that only one federal program helps, that's food
stamps and that is where there is a head of the household and does
insufficient income they can't get a thing anywhere except relief and that's
temporary and it's very menial. This should also be included. Food stamps
is different. Some of you could get food stamps because all it's relying
upon is your income by ratio to the number of people in the household and
employed.
01:09:45
You must have a total income and then if it's less than that $35,000 then
you qualify for food stamps, for food stamps you see, but that's the only
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 29
program but I think it should be more flexible for that family, then a father
would have to leave the home too.
00:01:10
Well we come awfully close to the guaranteed income idea without ever
mentioning it, it seems to me. That was the other question we don't have
time for it. I want to say thank you to our visitors this morning. This was I'm
sure pointed very helpful to us even if we strayed occasionally from the
more specific topic. I want to say thank you to this group and I want to
remind you that at 11:15 we the next presentation, "Violence versus
Non-Violence," and that will be a general meeting downstairs again.
Thank you all very much.
01:10:35
[Applause]
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” morning panel discussion (transcript), page 30
Show less
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0011
Description: Ada Deer, The Rev. Harold Andrews... Show more
Transcript of “Our Forgotten Neighbors”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Ada Deer, Rev. Harold Andrew, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines,
and Ronald Sample moderated by Myles Stenshoel
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0011
Description: Ada Deer, The Rev. Harold Andrews, Reginald Berry, Gary Hines, and
Ronald Sample discuss residential segregation and racism in a panel moderated by Dr.
Myles Stenshoel. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to
issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:55:20
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[The recording cuts in while Myles Stenshoel is speaking] Affairs
Department University of Minnesota. She informs me that she's got to be
at another commitment at 4 o'clock and we're going to give her there for
the first opportunity to say something today I don't know exactly what she
wants to say our general topic is listed as “Our Forgotten Neighbors,” and
has the subtitle “Inadequacy of Public and Community Services in the
ghettos.” Now, this at least is a starting point, and perhaps we can go on
from there and again I'm going to have to say told, said to me that we'll
have to speak rather loudly because there are some noises particularly at
that end of the room. We’ll let Ms. Deer spark at this time. Do you want
this…?
00:00:45
[Ada Deer] This is quite a switch for me, because usually the Indians are
last and so I have a chance to get my words in first at this time. First of all,
I'd like to commend the Augsburg College and all of you who are here,
and who’ve had a part in planning and carrying out this program. I think
this is a very exciting opportunity for you to meet people in the community,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 1
to hear speakers of various backgrounds, and to know firsthand what
some of the problems are. I'm sorry that I'll have to leave, but I hope that I
will stimulate you to think about our forgotten Americans. This is the
phrase that President Johnson used in his State of the Union message
last year, when he talked about us. And I should say it always annoys me,
and pains me to hear this, and I keep thinking that if more of us speak up
and speak out that eventually this will change.
00:01:50
Now, in 10 minutes, I certainly can't talk to you and give you all the
information that you need on American Indians. First of all, because I do
not myself have a global knowledge of Indians. I think that when you do
hear people of minority groups, you should bear in mind what the
background is, what their frame of reference is. Because I certainly cannot
pretend to speak for all American Indians. I speak for myself, out of my
own background and experience and professional training. I myself am a
social worker, I'm interested in community in social action, and this is a
type of involvement in the community that I spend most of my time doing.
Occasionally, I do make speeches but at this point, I should say I'm a little
tired of talking about the problem, and I'm interested in talking to people
who are wanting to get involved and who can help.
00:02:51
Now we should talk, especially in terms of Indians, about the philosophy of
helping. I myself have been here in Minneapolis since 1961. I've worked in
several different agencies as the program director of Waite Neighborhood
House, a three years in the Bureau of Indian Affairs, and a year now at the
University of Minnesota. And I have many people calling me, different
times during the day, on all aspects of Indian Affairs. Once, a one young
man called me up and said ‘hello,” he says ‘’I have some clothes for the
Indians and what shall I do with them?’ So I said ‘well, I'm sorry, I'm not in
the clothes business’ and I tried to refer to another place that might be
able to handle this. This is what I call the ‘old clothes approach’ to helping.
You know, clean out your closets, and then you've done your good deed
for the day.
00:03:39
I think that, with Indians, this has been particularly true. We want to help,
and we end up doing for rather than doing with. Now, I know that we've all
heard these phrases over and over, but I'd like to challenge each of you to
think about this. What do we mean when we talk about help? In my
opinion, when we talk about help, we mean helping people help
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 2
themselves. And, all too often, with Indian people this has not occurred. I
meet many well-meaning people sitting across the table from me in
various committees who want to help, but then when you really zero in
and try to find out what they want to do, they don't really want to help at
all, they want to make their own guilt feeling so less and proceed on that
basis.
00:04:29
Now, I would like to outline briefly for you some of the problems as
suggested in the first presidential message on Indians made to Congress
by President Johnson the first week of March. This will give you a basic a
frame of reference from which to discuss. I should say that one of the big
disadvantages is that the Bureau of Indian Affairs, which is the
governmental agency in charge of administering programs for Indians, has
no research division, and so almost everything that you hear about Indians
is based on approximations and guesses. And this is very unfortunate
when you are out in the field, trying to develop programs and solutions to
some of the problems.
00:05:11
Everyone wants to know how many Indians are there in this country. Well,
according to that information they're approximately 600,000. This is
approximately the same population that was here at the time that
Columbus quotes ‘discovered’ America. [audience laughs] Then, how
many live on reservations? Approximately 400,000 live on reservations,
200,000 live in urban areas, or outside of the reservation areas. 50,000
Indian families live in unsanitary dilapidated dwellings. The unemployment
rate is nearly 40 percent, and this is more than ten times the national
average. 50% of the Indian school children, double the national average,
drop out before completing high school. Indian literacy rates are among
the lowest in the nation. Thousands of Indians who migrated into the cities
find themselves untrained for jobs and unprepared for urban life. The
average age of death of an American Indian today is 44, and for all other
Americans it is 65. 10 percent of American Indians over age 14 have had
no schooling. Nearly 60 percent have had less than an eighth grade
education, and even those Indians who are attending school are plagued
by language barriers, by isolation and remote areas, by lack of a tradition
of academic achievement.
00:06:38
I'm not going to go into all the points that I have here on my cards, but I
would like to mention a little more about health. The health level of the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 3
American Indian is the lowest of any major population group in the United
States. The incidence of TB1 among Indians and Alaska Natives is five
times the national average. I think you can get the picture in terms of
health, education, and social conditions. On a national average the
Indians are at the bottom, and I should say that this is also true here in
Minnesota. There are approximately 21 to 24,000 Indian people here in
the state of Minnesota. Nobody knows exactly how many there are here in
the Twin Cities, but the estimates are from five to ten thousand. I could go
on talking about the problems of urban living, but I will summarize them by
saying that the Indian people are isolated in the reservation areas, are not
oriented the city life, come here with improper education, inadequate
orientation, and due to the residency barriers, have very difficult time for
the most part.
00:07:59
Now, there are many Indians that make it, but at this point we don't hear
much about them. Our press continues to feature the negative sides, and
very often does not emphasize the positive contributions. And because
Indian people are a small population group, and are, at this point,
relatively unorganized--we don't have an NAACP, we don't have an Urban
League, we don't have any of the other organizations--you don't hear
much from the Indian population. Now, I've outlined the social problems on
a national level, and, to summarize, we have some of the same problems
on the state level and in the city level, and what is being done about it?
00:08:39
We have a multitude of agencies who are now beginning to address
themselves to some aspects of the problems. I have many requests for
in-service training sessions from the teachers, social workers, and others.
We're beginning to organize Committees of Indian people concerned with
education and other matters. But this is a long haul, and much will have to
be done by everyone concerned. Now, where is this in terms of you? First
of all, attitudes. I see a sign-up there in the dormitory which says ‘white
racism must go.’ And I'd like to echo this: the attitudes that minority people
are confronted with are very difficult and they're very disheartening. This is
also particularly true of American Indians. Oftentimes, people look at me,
and others like me, and say ‘you're not an Indian.’ And, by this, they mean
I'm not weak, dependent, poor, inarticulate, backward, and out of it. If you
stand up and speak, speak out, and are a little aggressive--you know, if
1
Tuberculosis.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 4
you're, too quiet you're too passive. You know if you're too aggressive,
you know, this isn't acceptable either.
00:09:43
And so, this is a very difficult situation for many of the minority people
ought to be in. So, the first point here is for you yourselves to become
better informed, more knowledgeable, and also to look at your own
attitudes, the attitudes of your family, the attitudes in your neighborhood.
Now, I think I've used up more than my 10 minutes, I've tried to outline
some of the problems and I hope that this will stimulate you to further
discussion. Thank you.
00:10:12
[Myles Stenshoel] Thank you, Miss Deer. The two gentlemen here to my
left are, my far left: Mister, the Reverend, Mr, how’s that? The Reverend
Mr. Harold Andrews, who holds a great many positions, more than I could
suggest, he's consultant to the Minneapolis school system, he is an
assistant pastor at Sabbatini Church, he is involved in the DECOY
organization, and many others. The gentleman to my immediate left is a
student who will be graduating this year from Central High School, Mr.
Reginald Berry, who has has been quite active in the DECOY
organization, and perhaps would like to tell you something about that.
00:11:04
This morning, at our session, we began, not with any particular address,
and we didn't really have an Indian representative--except ¼? Mr.
Andrews also claim some Indian blood, which made him a spokesman to
some degree, also for the Indian communities this morning. But we are
asking ourselves here about the particular problems that exist in our
ghettos with respect to social services and community services. And I
think it is clear--I don't think we have to be told an awful lot about the fact
that there are deficiencies about the fact that schools are often not as
adequate in these communities as they are elsewhere. That playgrounds
are less adequate, that swimming pools are probably few and far between,
and if they are available, not in good condition.
00:12:06
One of the things that that also comes up is the thing that was
emphasized by our speaker just before this discussion. Namely, the
problem of the--of social service, particularly aid to dependent children, or
aid to families with dependent children. Where we tend to break up the
community, rather than to then to strengthen the family. We break up the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 5
family rather than strengthen it. Now I think we have some kind of an idea
here of some of the problems.
00:12:39
I'm going to ask each of these gentlemen to say whatever he wants to say
this afternoon, after which I think will open it up to a rather general
discussion, and perhaps ask ourselves some more questions about what
we can do, and more particularly that we in the Augsburg community
should be concerned with. Do you want to--
00:13:01
[Reginald Berry] Well, considering the fact that Ms. Deer is in a hurry, I
would prefer that we answered--ask some questions, if they have
questions, in regards to what she has already said, with reference to the
Indians, and the Indian Affairs, and after which then we could--
00:13:21
[Myles Stenshoel] All right that would probably be a little bit better, we'll
give her a chance then [inaudible]
00:13:29
[Audience member] They’ve got a program on CBS that [inaudible] the
forgotten American, and the point they made right at the end that’s the
basic dilemma about--that the Indians that go off of the reservation often
come back. And you have a basic dilemma in that the Indian can’t find
work on the reservation and they’re too poorly oriented to go off of the
reservation. I just wonder about your personal opinion, where you think it’s
going to end up. Is it going to be better to try and get them off, or are you
going to try and bring employment to the reservation?
00:13:59
[Ada Deer] Well I'd say it's both. It's not an either/or proposition. I think
there should be adequate minimum standards of living in all areas of our
country, for all of our people. And, for too long, in the rural areas,
especially among Indian people, among the Negro people in the Delta
country, they've been denied basic services. This of course is a function of
the appropriations and the way the services are delivered by the various
agencies. Now, in terms of Indians, I would say, due to the isolation and
the real domination by the Bureau of Indian Affairs, many Indian people
don't really have adequate choices. They don't understand; if they don't go
to school at 16, there'll be dropouts and then be condemned to a very poor
existence.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 6
00:14:50
So, what I would like to see would be: adequate housing, adequate
schools in these areas, and then, if a person wants to leave the
reservation, they'll be adequately equipped. Now, at this point, the budget
of the Bureau of Indian Affairs is 250 million dollars. That's a lot of money.
17,000 employees for approximately 400,000 people losing out or near
reservations. Then, of course, they'll be coming to the cities, and there's a
big dilemma here because Congress has authorized money for
expenditures on the reservations, but has not really given authority to
expend for services in the cities.
00:15:25
And so, when the Indian people come into the cities, they're needing all
kinds of services. Many of the agencies say ‘Indians? Oh, well they're
taken care of by the Bureau of Indian Affairs.’ And so, here the person is
caught in this dilemma. And this is where we need to change, these
policies changed, and we need additional money for some of the
programs.
00:15:46
[Myles Stenshoel] I'd like to raise a question at this point, Ms. Deer: a few
years ago, I was sitting with the Advisory Committee from South Dakota to
the Civil Rights Commission, and we ran into some really difficult
problems out there. We were trying to come to grips with this with some of
the things that, some of the problems of the Indians in South Dakota. We
made one--discovered one thing, and that was that there were some
communities, Rapid City was the most obvious example of this. When an
Indian family, or another poor family, but it was primarily the Indian
families, when they would move to Rapid City, they would be served by
the local authorities with what was called a certificate of non-residency
which said, in effect, that the social services that we provide for people
here, are not available for you, because you are not a resident, and if you
stay here for years you're not going to become a resident for purposes of
receiving these Social Services. Is, do we have any, any such problem
say, in the state of Minnesota that you're aware of?
00:16:59
[Ada Deer] I think it would be better for you to talk to someone that was
actually involved in the welfare department. I know that there are
subtleties that exist. For example, there's a certain allowance in the
budget for lights. Some families don't have lights, then they don't get an
allowance for lights. And, so actually, in many ways there is some--well,
additional lack of money. And there is, I guess you could say actually
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 7
some types of discrimination that exists in the way the budgets are
administered. But these are very subtle things, and you have to be kind of
a detective to try to track them down. And I am not an expert in public
assistance, so I think to adequately cover this particular aspect, you really
should have someone here for public assistance.
00:17:52
[Myles Stenshoel] Well, I thought it was a...do you know of any--
00:17:54
[Harold Andrews] It’s available. There's no discrepancy at all in, you know,
as far as the Indian is concerned. You say public assistance, the AFDC
[inaudible] if they’re living in the city, they can receive it.
00:18:08
[Ada Deer] I was talking about up into some of the northern areas where
they get less money.
00:18:14
[Myles Stenshoel] Are there other questions from Ms. Deer, yes?
00:18:17
[Audience Member] The gentleman from DECOY, I think, some of the
ways they’re doing, educating the Black person to his African culture.
Correct me if I’m wrong. Are the, does the Indian, American Indian, on his
culture, does he want a kind of modern Indian image, or something, or
does he want--how do you feel about culture and the Indian, the American
Indian? Do you think they should [inaudible] do you want to relish in that,
or do you want to…?
00:19:04
[Ada Deer] I think this is a very interesting question. It gets into this whole
area of identification. And a person is designated an ‘Indian’ by the Bureau
of Indian Affairs for services if they have one fourth degree Indian blood.
Now, because a person has one fourth degree Indian blood does not
necessarily mean they're Indians. In the old days, traders got on, and
various other people got on them, so that's part of this whole definition.
Now that's a legal definition of Indian. A social definition that I find helpful
is a person is an Indian who identifies himself as an Indian and who is
identified by the community as an Indian. Now some of the Indian
communities in this country have still a great deal left of culture.
00:19:49
By this, I mean the total way of life. They speak the language, for example
the Indians in the southwest, they speak the language, you still carry on
some of the ancient religious practices, their family and kinship systems
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 8
are still in operation, and so on. Various other groups, this is not true, and
there's still a lot of interaction/interchange going on. I think lots of people
think that you know we have ‘pure’ Indian culture here, and then we have
the non-indian culture, and this is not the way it is. Here, in this area,
we've had traders and others making contact for 300 years, so we have
people who are driving cars on television, and and all these things and this
is one of the big problems.
00:20:37
Trying to help people define who they are. And, I should say, that in this
society if you're a minority person nobody lets you forget it at all. And I
think that one of the things that all of us have to do is remember that we're
human beings, together. And that we do have some similarities and that
we do have some differences. Now, with Indians much of the culture and
the history has has consciously been destroyed. There is no teaching of
Indian history in the schools, or Indian culture, and as I mentioned earlier,
at this point we don't have a strong pan-Indian movement in the country,
providing the type of leadership that SLIC, 2 and SNCC,3 and the NAACP,
in all this the host of organizations among the black community is doing.
So, it's kind of a long answer to your question but these are some of the
points involved.
00:21:25
[Reginald Berry] Another thing: you know, I think that sort of acts as a
catalytic agent to this stereotype image of the Indian, even more so than a
Black man, is that there are many people who definitely are ignorant to the
contributions of the Indian up to our modern-day society. I don't mean
historically in this country, I mean, since they have become Americanized,
or westernized to the white man's ways. And I think this goes more into
your question, as to whether or not the Indian, and teaching minority
history, are we going to consider also the contributions of the Indian, or
are there any such contributions which I know I heard it, but this is more of
a nature of interest, I would assume, as to education at the Indian, and of
everybody else in the society. So, if you could even relate, now, to some
such contributions you see, I think it would more or less...
00:22:38
[Ada Deer] Well, there are many Indian individuals that are making
contributions right now. For example, we have Ms. LaDonna Harris, who is
a Comanche Indian. She is the wife of Senator Fred Harris from
2
3
Possibly intended to mean SCLC, the Southern Christian Leadership Conference.
The Student Non-Violent Coordinating Committee.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 9
Oklahoma. She has been appointed chairman of the Woman's Advisory
Committee to the OEO.4 She was the first congressional wife ever to
testify before Congress on behalf of legislation. She testified recently on
behalf of the OEO legislation. We have Mr. Robert L. Bennett, who's a
commissioner of the Bureau of Indian Affairs. We have, I'm sure you've
heard of congressman Ben Rifle from South Dakota, who not only works
for Indians, but for all people of the state. And, at this particular point, I
don't have time to go into all the other ones, but yes there are
contributions. And one of the sad points here is that, in Minnesota, we’re
in Indian country. There--we look on the map, we can see many towns
that have been named after Indian names. And if you study history from
an objective point of view, you could really dig into this and see.
00:23:43
Oh, and I want to really relate to your question about being a ‘new Indian,’
there's a book out called the ‘New Indian.’ And, I think it's rather cool book
myself, but, anyway, this is I think the challenge to to all of us. Many
people, as I mentioned earlier, have a stereotyped idea of what it means
to be an Indian. You know, you have to act a certain way. And we are in a
democratic society, and I think that the choice should be open through
each of us as individuals--what type of person we want to be. And, I feel
that there are Indians in this country who speak the language and who
carry on some of their practices, but at the same time, can have an
adequate standard of living. This is particularly true among some of the
Indians in the southwest, that live in Albuquerque and some of these other
places they take part in their tribal affairs, but still they come back.
00:24:33
Each person has to make up their mind as to what they'd like to do. Now
again, I'm expressing my opinion in my frame of reference we should
really hear other Indians. You should hear people from the Bureau of
Indian Affairs, we should hear tribal leaders, and then you'd get a full
scope of picture.
00:24:54
[Myles Stenshoel] All right, a question over here yes.
00:24:56
[Audience Member] Yes, do you believe the Bureau of Indian Affairs itself
needs a major revamp.
4
Office of Economic Opportunity.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 10
00:25:05
[Ada Deer] Yes. [Stenshoel laughs] I worked in the Bureau for three years,
so I know.
00:25:08
[Myles Stenshoel] I think it's interesting that--I was living in South Dakota
and I was in Ben Rifles district, and it seemed to me that we in South
Dakota somehow felt that we had proved that we were doing right by the
Indian by electing Ben to Congress, and that somehow it was a sort of
therapeutic, cathartic--
00:25:28
[Ada Deer] --you did your duty, you solved the problem.
00:25:29
We did our duty, our problem was solved. It's very easy to get this feeling.
Here's a here's a man who's of some accomplishment, who’s a good
Episcopalian, and half-German--
00:25:43
[Ada Deer] --Meets the right standards.
00:25:43
Meets all the good standards and Ben Rifle was our Indian.
00:25:46
[Ada Deer] That's right.
00:25:47
[Myle Stenshoel] Another question here I saw, yes.
00:25:50
[Audience Member] I was wondering what organization were [inaudible] in
the city [inaudible].
00:25:58
There are a number of organizations. There's the Department of Indian
work of the Minnesota Council of Churches. There are several small
Indian organizations that are social and cultural in nature. We have a
couple sewing groups, and we have the Upper Midwest Center, we have
the Four Winds, we have a teenage group, and so on. But at this particular
point, we don't have one particular agency, such as an Indian Center, that
is fully staffed and fully financed it could really meet some of the basic
needs of the Indian people. You know, such as the Urban League does for
some of the other minorities.
00:26:33
I also wanted to say, as long as I have the floor. As far as I'm concerned, I
feel that, with the small minority population that we have in this area,
which is like, about I don’t know, 3 or 4 percent, it's just inexcusable that
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 11
there should be the extent of problems that we have here in terms of
housing, education, and discrimination. And I feel that, if we are not able
to do something about this here and now, with this small--here with this
population, in this urban area, that is going to be--you know, if we can't do
it here, what--where, who is going to do it? And this is why we need, you
know, your help. I'm sure my colleagues would have something additional
to say.
00:27:18
[Myles Stenshoel] Are you rested up sufficiently now, so we can get Ms.
Deer a break and can let you take over?
00:27:22
[Unidentified panelist] Yeah.
00:27:26
[Myles Stenshoel] All right, yeah.
00:27:32
[Reginald Berry] I am NOT a Negro. I wish not to be addressed as a
Negro. Let me shock you: I am a Black man, a proud Black man. I am an
Afro-American. I belong to an organization called DECOY: Determined
Ebony Council of Youth. ‘Determined,’ I think we all know what determined
means. ‘Ebony’ means we are Black, no white belong to our group. When
I say ‘Council,’ right, I belong to the council, but we have like a congress.
At least 500 to 700 students in the south side of Minneapolis, some north,
that belong to DECOY. ‘Youth,’ I say we are youth, we are young adults.
That's because we prove that we can think for ourselves. We feel we need
no person 60 years old, or 50 years, old to tell us what we need at our
age. We can think for ourselves.
00:28:22
I'm in the 12th grade. We feel that one of the major concerns of the
community is Black power. I've realized some of you tremble to the word
‘Black,’ since we, the community, gives the name ‘black’ as being bad,
and ‘white’ is being good. Black power is political, economic, social, and
psychological advancement for Black people in America. I'll talk about the
political and economic part, because it has it all has to relate to the
community, but this--especially politically, black people in their community
should control politicians in the community. In the politics. Economically,
we could control all the businesses in the community. We--they--Indians
were put on a reservation, we were put in a so called ghetto, which is the
same thing as so-called reservation. Put away from the rest, what made
the ghetto was an economic, something like a cycle
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 12
00:29:25
When I say ‘control the economics of community,’ I mean control the
businesses. It's like when you take your money, which you earn a little bit
from the white man ,and you go spending in his store. The white man is
not gonna live in that tore up neighborhood, so what does he do? He goes
out from his suburban, not to say suburban, in his suburban neighborhood
and spends it there. Therefore, the suburban neighborhood gets richer
and richer, and that so-called ghetto gets poorer and poorer. See, when
we talk about so-called ghetto, we got to get an understanding between all
of us in here, what a ghetto is. The dictionary says it’s a group of ethnic
people in a certain area.
00:30:02
Therefore, all over the United States, we have Polish ghettos, Italian
ghettos, Swedish ghettos, but you give us his name ghetto. Anytime you
said ‘ghetto’ at school, everybody knows what they're talking about.
They're talking about Black people. I am NOT a minority. I am a majority.
When you start calling yourself a minority, you can go so far. Minority
tends to think minority, think small. I'm not small. I said before, anything
that happens in this community at Augsburg College should have--affects
the city. Anything that affects the city affects the state. Anything that
affects the state affects the country. Anything that affects the country
affects the world.
00:30:41
Therefore, there are more Black people in the world than there are white.
Communication is too great to be just talking about a certain district, a
certain area. Because anything we do in Minneapolis well have--if we set
good examples in Minneapolis, which we are starting to do, then that's
gonna do good for the whole country. I can say I am not a minority but I
am the majority. One of the things that white people can do, and they're
the communities--I live on the south side of Minneapolis. The south side of
Minneapolis is no ghetto, so-called ghetto. Black people are spread out all
over the south side of Minneapolis. White people, after the death of Martin
Luther King, and after the so called grants which we call economic
revolutions, political and economic revolutions--
00:31:30
--first thing white people do they say ‘what can we do for you?’ That's not
the problem. It’s what can you do for yourself. If white people weren't
racists in the first place, there wouldn't be no problem. So what you do?
You don't come over and join our organizations, but you get your own
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 13
selves together. That's where the problem is. You get in your own social
gatherings and start figuring out why does the black man have a tail, it's
something you put on us. You get--like I say, Black people have the
biggest problem with getting themselves together. White people get
yourself together. Then, when white people get yourselves together, then
you can truly integrate. When one’s stronger than the other, like the
American system is based on, the one on the top is always going to be
exploiting the one on the bottom.
00:32:10
But it shouldn't be because the person is black, or a person is yellow. It
shouldn't be because he has a different culture than yours. One of the
biggest hangups that America has, if a person isn’t, culture isn't like to
theirs, they say he's ‘culturally deprived.’ They say the Black man in the
ghetto is culturally deprived. He is not. He has a culture of his own. He has
a heritage of his own. We came from Africa. One of the things you could
do to help communicate better with Black people all over the city, all over
the country, is learning the history of Black people. Learning the history of
so-called minority groups. There--then you can coincide with them, you
can get along with them, you can know something about them. Now, you
can't respect somebody who you don't know nothing about. To get to the
problem, you can't start at the top and cut it off. It's like, it's like a tree. To
kill a tree, you don't get at the top cutting them off. You get at the root of
the problem.
00:33:11
So what I'm saying is: before you can get through with the problem, you
have to know what started the problem. You gotta know back during
slave--you gotta know all the contributions that black people have made in
America. I'm not all, but there's quite a few. It's not hard to look up. I like to
say that Patrick Henry said ‘liberty or death.’ When a Black man in the
so-called ghetto says ‘liberty or death,’ he's a militant. That's another word
we get hung up on, ‘militant.’ In means ‘able,’ by a dictionary definition
‘able and willing to fight.’ President Johnson is militant, since he is sending
us to Vietnam. So what we do--Black people and white people, like, we
worry about getting our own selves together. White people get Black
people together--white people together, and Black people’ll get Black
together, like we've been doing.
00:34:00
[Reginald Berry] Well, that’s about it [laughs].
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:34:04
[Myles Stenshoel] Okay. Mr. Andrews?
00:34:06
[Harold Andrews] Well, I'm a lot like Ms. Deer. I don't know how many of
you were here this morning. I don't care to be repetitious. I didn't come out
here to be eloquent either. I speak, I don’t know how many times today, I
have to speak again tonight. There aren’t enough hours in the day for me
[a panelist coughs] he doesn’t know all of them himself. I’ve got to fill
[inaudible] if not, get out of the way and let somebody else do it. The
reason I'm doing so much is because I found that there's so many good
meeting people who says ‘let me help.’ When I go home I can't sleep at
night, wondering if they will. And when I see them on the next day, I say
‘did you take care of that?’ ‘No, I'm doing it right now.’ And I can't wait like
that. Consequently, I'm like one of these guys in a small town where he
pulls you over for speeding and takes you to court, he's a judge, and then
he takes the fine, and he gives you a haircut--he's the barber.
00:35:16
I’m doing so many things. But until enough people stop talking, start doing
things, I'd rather rust out--I'd rather wear out, that is, then rust out because
this is a very serious matter to me, and one to which I have dedicated
myself. I'm so dedicated because I have anxieties. I have fears. I've been
where you can never go, I've heard what you can never hear, and I know
what can happen if we don't do it now. And I didn't need the Kerner Report
to tell me that, matter of fact, the Kerner report is only a repetition of what
was proposed in 1919 in Chicago, Illinois. Same report. Matter of fact, it
looks like they just quoted some of it. And this is the thing that--I-I couldn't
say that, perhaps you hear the youth haven’t been aware of, but I'm sure
the adults have. This is why I have lost a lot of faith in the preceding
generation.
00:36:22
What I think I would prefer to do now is to give you a little background on
just one organization and what we're doing. And maybe then from this,
you could get some ideas of what you can do. DECOY and the United
Southside. My capacity at the time of this, of my getting involved in
this--previously I should say, to get involved--was as a social worker at
Central High School, at which time I was working on a one-to-one basis
with the students, and then something happened. The kids, after getting a
little educated about Blackness from The Way on the north side, decided
‘well, why don't we, you know, ahve one on the south side?’ This is where
it’s at!
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 15
00:37:13
So, they got together and said ‘we're gonna [have] a South Side Way. And
man, when they said that, their parents and the whole community were
aroused. And they said ‘well, wait a minute, let's have some sort of
confrontation before you do this, now. Let's have a meeting. Let's meet
and discuss this.’ And that meeting was packed. And, as I said this
morning, we are just the people who respond to violence. And this is why
they packed the house. And the minister himself got up and said ‘if I could
get half as many people here on Sunday, [Stenshoel laughs] I’d have to
call this a church.’ But instead, it's a community house, because that's
when everybody comes, when there's something, you know, controversial.
And this seemed to be quite controversial.
00:38:01
And I can remember Syl Davis himself5 standing there and saying ‘you are
here because you're uncomfortable. Because the word ‘Way’ was
mentioned. And The Way moves people.’ And, boy I couldn't deny that!
Because they were there for that purpose. And so, after a lot of dialogue,
a lot of eloquence, a lot of, you know, showing off who knows what about
what, nothing was being done. And I stood. And I asked--I faced the youth
who were organized. They were attacking the adults and the adults were
fighting back, but nothing happened and I said ‘Now, what do you want?’
And they specified some of the things they wanted. And I turned around
and looked the adults and I said ‘would you deny your own child anything
that they just asked for?’ They said ‘no!’ ‘So, let's do something!’
00:38:52
Then, as it was--and this is since quite a picture, I even see the picture
now. It was like this table. I don't even like to talk behind a table, [knocking
his hand on the table] It's a psychological disadvantage to talk behind a
table. I face one of the kids, said ‘stand up, son.’ He stood up. ‘Which
direction is right?’ He pointed to my left. I said ‘no. This is right.’
[presumably Andrews points to his right for the audience] And I looked at
the people, I said ‘now, who's right?’ They said ‘you both are.’ I said,
‘yeah, but we're pointing in different directions!’ I said ‘Let's get around on
the same side of the table.’ And what I was really trying to do was, get the
philosophy behind it, is that as I--in our communities, institutions, and what
have you it seems that we all face opposite sides of table.
5
Davis was the first director of The Way in North Minneapolis.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:39:34
We're both right, and the community suffers, because it's always in the
center. As far as the schools in the community are concerned, the school
is looking out their window, at the family, the residences, and saying ‘that's
the community.’ And they're looking out their window at the school and
saying ‘that’s the community.’ Now it's the issue of Black and white. We're
looking out our window at you and saying ‘that's the problem.’ And you're
looking out yours, at us, when you look at you see riots and things and say
‘that's the problem.‘
00:40:07
And we both think we're right. We, when we really have to be able to come
around to the same side of the table and look at it together through the
same window, where we would be very surprised to discover that we're
both in the same community. We're both in the situation together, and it is
not a Black problem, it’s not a white problem, it is an American problem!
And when we become, come to the pond to realize this, then perhaps
there can be some pursuance. You see, as he was talking about the
effects going from state, to a national, and international level, as other
countries look at us, they look objectively. They look at America.
Particularly those who are using propaganda as a means of exploiting
other countries and influencing others to become--
00:40:56
--like communism socialism. It's easier now! We're the most--we have lost
the Cold War. And these are such things that have caused us to lose it:
when we say we are in a non-aggressive country, nation, we love the
world. And we fool enough to think that with money we can compromise.
We'll go over--and then this came straight from the horse's mouth. I talked
to a congressman he said, ‘sure we send many, many countries are not
really allies of ours. We give them money, and we'll give them this money,
what do I want in return? Well when we want to vote on an issue at the
UN, we expect them to vote.’
00:41:34
Now, if I did that right now, if I was running for office, and I gave you
money, and said ‘vote for me what would you call me?’ Particularly if I
were Black? I'd be a Black one-of-those wouldn’t I? [audience laughs] All
right! Let's stop being hypocrites! Let's look at ourselves as a family. We
are, whether we like it or not. I know, ah [he chuckles] I had a brother, we
fought every day, we--sometime nothing to fight about, we’d look at each
other and say ‘well, we ain’t had our fight today.’ [he slaps his hands]
There we go. My brother. As much as a lot of Black people hate to say so,
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 17
we're still brothers, they’ll say ‘now I didn't say we’re your distant cousins.’
They don't want to say brothers. [audience laughs] They say we’re
brothers.
00:42:18
But we must--its virtues, love, respect, integrity, whatever you call them.
You don't demand them. You earn them. No man can make any other
man, or any individual, love him, but he can earn it. But that doesn't go
one way. It goes two ways, and it comes out of sincerity. As they say in a
church, ‘that which comes from the heart, reaches a heart.” And I hope it
does. This is the thing I'm talking about. From this point, I got with the kids.
They organized, and they said ‘we're gonna have a Southside Way.’ Then,
they decide ‘well, there’s so much controversy, and we want them to know
that we have the strength among ourselves. We don't need to lean on
anybody. We're not gonna be affiliated with anybody. We're gonna change
our name. We’ll change our name to DECOY.’
00:43:03
Well, I never questioned them about that word, and it represents
‘Determined Ebony Council of Youth,’ but you know what a decoy is?
Those of who have been duck hunting. It's a false--well you know it's the
little duck that you buy at the store, and you put him out there to draw the
others, and when he draws them on then, boom! This is not the
connotation though. [audience laughs] But, still! It is in a way, even if they
were not aware of it. Right now we've got this, the South Side Way. We
had it before even The Way moved there, because the concept is in these
kids. The concept is in me. I believe it. But a concept is like..anything, this
ashtray6 was designed for one purpose: putting butts in, and putting out
ashes, and putting out cigarettes. I can take this and make a weapon in
probably, very-very, definitely to kill somebody with it.
00:43:55
And anything else, a pen, anything. It's how you use it. Even in a concept.
This is what has created, I believe, the reluctance, not only in white
people, but in Blacks who fear even the word ‘Black power.’ You hear
‘Black,’ and you hear ‘power,’ you eradicate power, you say ‘supremacy.’ I
heard a man speaking one time. A Black man. He said, we don't want
‘Black power.’ I said ‘man, how do you know you don’t want something
you never had before?’ There’s never been any Black power in this
country. It may be better than white power, but no one has ever said--no
6
Smoking was common in indoor spaces at the time, including the College Center (now Christensen
Center).
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 18
one has ever inferred, even that by having Black power that we would just
totally eradicate white power. What they're really saying is equality! And so
much so, that the National Conference on Black Power, about two weeks
ago in Washington DC, set out, and we decided we're gonna even change
the word to ‘equality.’
00:44:53
There’ll be fighting just like DECOY, you know. the same concept, but just
changing words. It's terrible how words affect people. The organization
was founded, and then we had to get adults to work. Out of sixty teachers
at that particular high school, I got forty seven to volunteer right on the
spot [snaps his fingers]. Every social agency, every institution on the south
side, we got them all together in one organization: us. The United
Southside. It was from there that we began to move, and this is how
DECOY was able to effectively get the things on the school board like the
20th for Malcolm X Day, for parental release. Like a school holiday for Dr.
Martin Luther King. Like just going to school to history books, throwing
them out.
00:45:41
We don't need black history, we don't need minority history, we need to
tell it like it is. And this is what we're gonna do: we're gonna build that
book up properly, and if we have to go back to the publisher--if we don't
buy it, he don’t print when he's got to sell. We're not gonna buy it. Then,
as a sensitivity training, we need people staffed. You want to know what
can be done? Staffed, and trained properly, to the sensitivity of the
problem of the racial issues. Not only the issues, but to the history. To be
informed. Now we only have a few resource places where we can get
such a thing. We sent three teachers from this area to Fisk University this
summer to be trained at where they have the most extensive resources in
Black history.
00:46:22
Right here in the city, DECOY’s getting another thing now. A library
equivalent two theirs, right here in our own city. A nice conference room
for U.S. to meet in. These are the things of the nature, to bill
constructively, and this can be done by Black and white, because United
Southside, by no means, is Black. We've got people like Nat Ober,
Superintendent of Secondary Schools, [inaudible] DeSantis, [inaudible],
Alderman. I could name a lot of people who are white, who sit down
together. They don't tell us what we should do. We run our show, this is
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 19
our program, we're running it, but they're definitely there to give whatever
aid they can. And this is what I feel we can do.
00:47:08
You've heard over and over again to go home and do your white
neighborhoods and educate yourselves. This is vitally important, but I by
no means am saying that you--that that is the end of it. But we must work
together. We must realize that that wheel that turned, and then built this
nation to be the nation that it is, had both black and white shoulders
pushing it. And if these two shoulders refuse to push, then the world can
no longer turn. The injustice of it is that the black shoulder was doing the
pushing, and the white shoulder was steering. But now we must push
together, because the wheel is too great for either one, a black or white
shoulder, to push alone.
00:47:49
[Myles Stenshoel] Okay, thank you very much. Now, the format this
afternoon varied rather considerably from that which went on this morning.
We've only got a few minutes left let's see if there aren't any responses or
questions that we shouldn't have here to either of these gentlemen. Yes.
00:48:03
[Audience member] Well, I’ve heard a lot of conflicting opinions about just
what role of the ghetto should be in society, now and in the future. And I
was wondering what both of your opinions might be about that.
00:48:16
[Reginald Berry] Why should there be a ghetto?
00:48:20
[Audience member] That's what I say, too, but I’ve heard people say that
there should be a ghetto. Negro people.
00:48:25
[Reginald Berry] One of the problems is: when Black people go to buy a
house in the white neighborhood, they’ve usually had to pay two times as
much as the house is worth to live out there. Over--I know a man who
came here from Mississ--no, Arkansas excuse me--he went to buy a
house in Minneapolis. Now, you know they got that open housing bill, they
always got bills, and human rights, and civil rights to make people human
and citizens. Make Black people human citizens.
00:48:48
When black people are on the docks, lowering the boats, when these
immigrants, white immigrants were coming here. But yet still they got
makes it--make them--special laws to make them citizens. One of the
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 20
things he did, he went up by a house. He had here, he didn't have--you
know, when he came here, he didn't have no car. He went over there on
Hiawatha Avenue. Firs,t he called up before he went there. They said, ‘yes
we have a house for sale.’ He went over there, he walked over there, what
happens? Soon as he gets there, I believe his Undertaker7 said, ‘oh wait a
minute, I have to call.’ he calls the owner, told her owner, he must have
told the owner he was Black.
00:49:23
Soon as he came back, he told the man the house was sold. So, naturally,
Black people are going to be put in the ghetto. Another instance a woman
down the block was gonna buy a house on 28th and Park Avenue. That's
right by my house. They had a for sale sign in the window. She went there
and they took it down and said it was sold. A week later, that for sale sign
was up. That's what's gonna make a ghetto. White people seem to want
Black people to be in a certain area. That's just like when black people
saying ten--not even ten--get behind closed doors. White person got to
know what's behind them doors.
00:47
[Harold Andrews] Well, another thing too, and we went over this this
morning.
00:50:02
[Myles Stenshoel] Different group.
00:50:02
[Harold Andrews] Oh. Well, in defining the word ghetto, it’s merely defined
as “any ethnic group in one geographical location.” So, by such a
definition, St. Louis Park is a ghetto. You see? Now, if this is the type of
ghetto you are talking about, there's no problem to a ghetto. You see, I
don't even want to live in St. Louis Park. I'm perfectly satisfied when I'm
living all by--maybe when I married, and I got a family, I'd want a home,
but I dig my apartment, you understand. But, on the other hand, I want my
ghetto to be as well off as St. Louis Park’s ghetto, you see what I'm talking
about [inaudible] equality?
00:50:45
This is that word, integration. See how you’re defining it in two different
ways. Not individually, but I have listened, and most white guys I talk to
you. And he says ‘say, man what do you think about integration?’ I know
what his next question is, but I usually politely wait to hear. And you know
what it wind up being? The Black man and the white woman. And this is
7
Berry possibly means a realtor.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 21
his fear of integration. This is the main thing that makes the white man
afraid to integrate. He doesn't want the Black man and white woman to get
together. Now that isn't how the Black man interprets--it’s not me. That
ain’t the way I interpret integration.
00:51:27
It's gotta--I have more values. I have more more things that I'm
considering in integration. What I'm saying when I say ‘integrate:’ number
one, in regards to where I live, whether I am satisfied in the southside of
Minneapolis or anywhere else, that I have the right to that pursuit of
happiness. To go there and live there. This is integration. Or if I so desire,
and I am financially well-off, I can go out there and join that country club.
That’s integration. And, you know, when I go I might take off--when I go on
my day I might take all my Black brothers and sisters with me, see. But
still will have that privilege. This is what I mean by integration and not--and
this is another thing, it must be more than token integration, as he was
saying in Dakota they had ‘their Indian.’
00:52:06
And the first thing that struck my mind was token integration. In my
investigation of this high school over here, when I walked in a principal
had three students, then ‘I want you to talk with these, Mr. Andrews.’ They
were Black. Now they can tell you like, just what's going on. Well, I looked
at that one, check the guy’s IQs [inaudible] you've got one of these big
IQs, his brother’s set a record over there that nobody can match, you
might have heard about his brother, who Mr. [inaudible] his brother over
on University, and he’s tremendous, you know. When he graduates from
high school, he was equivalent to, what was it there, Reggie, on his--not
IBM but, computers, the guy's a mathematical genius.
00:52:48
Now if you’re Black, and you're coming out of school and you’re not like
that, no token. And then, I've been here I've been in just a year, and since
I've been here I can, oh I have so many tremendous privileges. I had a
problem one time, financial, I walked up to a gentleman, a white man, say
‘man, I got a problem. I need $400 right [inaudible]’ ‘Sure, Harold.’ Wrote
me a check, beautiful, for Harold Andrews. But until a Black boy, whether
his name Harold Andrews, Joe Blow, anybody, can get the same type of
treatment, we have no equality.
00:53:22
You talk about integration and the ghetto is the same way. Until anybody
can walk out there, and get a house, you see, in that ghetto or any other
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 22
ghetto, then it’s so. And then as--it’s definitely it's nothing wrong with
ethnic groups being clannish, they always have been. Except the Black
man. You see, when you get the Polish American Society and I've seen
them, all--Italian American, Spanish American, they go down and have a
good time, they do the Polka. When we get together, here comes the
press. ‘What's going on here?’ ‘What are you doing?’ ‘A bunch of Black
people are together. They’re going to riot.’ We can, right now, if everybody
Black will get together, and we say ‘it’s nice today, let's walk.’ If we walk
down the street, I guarantee you either a State Trooper or other local
police will be there, and cruise around trying to see what's happened. You
can turn around do the same thing, and not a thing would be said.
Equality? No. Integration? No. You see what I'm saying, in answer to your
question.
00:54:18
[Myles Stenshoel] Our thanks to Mister Andrews and to Mr. Barry. We’re
grateful these two gentlemen were with us twice today. That's--I know
that's over and above the call of duty. We're grateful to all of the resource
persons today and of course to Ms. Deer who had to leave for that other
appointment. I have been asked to make another announcement: it has to
do with Dudley Riggs’ Brave New Workshop that will be a half-hour,
especially written drama for our “One Day in May,” and it's going to be at
4:30 in Melby Hall and there is no charge, which is certainly an
extraordinarily good bit of news. So, at 4:30, you are all invited to be there
then the evening session with Milt Williams8 will be held in the College
Center lobby at 6:30. Again, our thanks to you and our thanks for panel
members
00:55:18
[Applause]
8
The former name of Mahmoud El-Kati.
“Our Forgotten Neighbors” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 23
Show less
Transcript of “Green Power: Economic Crisis in the Ghettos”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0342
Description: Evan Anderson and Vern Bloom, of the Office of Economic Opportunity;
Gleason Glover, of the Minneapolis Urban League; Cli... Show more
Transcript of “Green Power: Economic Crisis in the Ghettos”
(afternoon session)
A Panel Discussion
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0342
Description: Evan Anderson and Vern Bloom, of the Office of Economic Opportunity;
Gleason Glover, of the Minneapolis Urban League; Clifford Johnson of the Twin Cities
Opportunities Industrialization Center; and Harry Davis discuss economic
disenfranchisement and racism in a panel moderated by Dr. Norma Noonan. The panel was
part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of racial injustice, known as "One
Day in May," 1968 May 15. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to
issues of racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 01:05:47
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
[The recording cuts in following introductions]
00:00:00
[Harry Davis]--the use and the force of green power. You will not be
basically equal. So what must be done in the Black Power movement is to
get into the mainstream of green power, to be able to exercise and to
appreciate the loans and the banks and the investments, to know about
the stock markets, to know how to put the squeeze on various political
figures when they are out of line, and you can do this of course with green
power. It must basically have support from people in the community and
people in business and industry. The church itself depends on green
power. As you know, the church is the largest holder, the second largest
holder, of green power. The United States government is the first, but the
church is second, so whatever point of life that we enjoy, or we participate
in, we must from some time at some time become involved, and the
reaction results the influence of the green power.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 1
00:01:03
You, right today, are not enjoying green power as much as some of the
gentlemen on the panel are, ‘cause these are professional men. You're in
the process of learning so you don't have too much green power at the
present time, but I'm sure that in the very near future, and you get your
degrees, and go out into the world, that you'll be a part of making green
power effective. It's pretty hard to say what green power means to
everyone, and some of us I'm sure don't appreciate it too much because
it's an everyday thing, but as a Black man, I know the green power,
must--means to me that I must have it in order to play an important part in
the community. If I don't have it, then I'm not too well respected in the
leadership capacity. If I don't have green power, I can't go to the store and
pay my bills and buy food and clothing for cash.
00:01:52
If I go into the store, the man would look at me and say ‘he is the one that
does not pay his bills because he doesn't have money.’ Looking at--I'm
looked at suspiciously. So until I can go in and pay my bills, buy for cash,
then he will ask you to come back again. This way, I can gain respect to
him, and to others that I do business with. The effect of green power is
very important, very important to the Black movement, or we must get into
the mainstream of green power, therefore, we must utilize our resources,
not only in our financial wizards such as Mr. Johnson, but in our resource
wizard such as Mr. Evan Anderson.
00:02:33
Collectively, we can get into the mainstream, teach and preach about the
effectiveness of savings, of investments, of mutual funds, of many ways
that we can become, we can get the use of green power. I'm sure that you
don't want to listen to me speak all day, and these gentlemen have given
you some background on their philosophy of green power so let's get to
the point and let you ask us some questions to get a good discussion
going.
00:02:59
[Norma Noonan] Before we open it up to the floor, do any of you want to
say a word or do you want to just get your question. You're speaking.
00:03:07
[Evan Anderson] No, I'll wait on it.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 2
00:03:07
[Norma Noonan] Okay, let's get some questions going and go from there.
Come on let's not all be shy. [Inaudible remark from a panelist] [Noonan
laughs]
00:03:20
[Audience member] Mr. Davis, I heard one of the panelists say this
morning--well, first of all let me say that I interpreted your remarks to say
that the use of money and the availability money is very important to the
solutions of that Black problem. I heard one of the families say this
morning, that if America is going to be saved, it's going to be saved by
Black America and it will be saved because Black America is not hung up
on the almighty dollar. In other words, they don't see everything in terms of
economics, you know to the extent of exploiting people, this type of thing.
00:03:56
I seem to sense some conflict between what he's saying and what you're
saying. It's hardly fair for me to try to tell you what he said [inaudible].
00:04:08
[Harry Davis] Well I can appreciate what he's saying, because I believe
that what he's trying to say is that we are not experienced in the tie-ups of
using other people for the value of a dollar or the benefit of the dollar to
us, but we must realize too, that to become effective and to get into the
power structure that we must accumulate and control a certain part of
green power this is a necessity, we have to, and until we can control and
accumulate some of this green power, then we're still going to be in the
rear, because we're going to be used for our money instead of using
others for their money.
00:04:42
You see, if we're not on the boards of banks, if we're not on the advisory
committee of banks, if we're not associated and stockholders and big
corporations, we have--we don't have too much to say of what they do
with our money, you see. And until we get on these boards, until we
become stockholders, then we can control and tell them what to do with
the money that we accumulate. We can control a certain amount of that
money. By controlling a certain amount of that money, we can become
powerful. Now, if we stay away from the banks, you see, we're not going
to be able to force banks to give us loans to finance homes and things of
that sort, and this is where the tie-up comes.
00:05:21
Many Black people do not have the opportunity, and are turned down by
banks, because they do not have good credit ratings or they have
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 3
established no credit whatsoever. So the banks will not give them money.
Now how are we going to force the banks to give them money if we don't
get into the mainstream and try to control some of that money in the bank?
So, we would have a voice in saying, ‘look you're you're not lending or
you're not encouraging Black people to come and use the facilities of this
bank, and you must do this because we are stockholders in this
corporation and we are stockholders in this bank and we want our money
used to benefit our people.’ This is only done at the present time by a
small part, a small segment of the Black community, but the more people,
the more Black people, we can get functioning on these boards and
controlling money, the better chance we will have to tell them how to use
this money.
00:06:18
You can take this from the Jewish movement. As an example, when they
went down to Miami Beach not too many years ago, they were told that
they weren't wanted. They couldn't be, they couldn't rent hotel rooms and
they couldn't go into certain restrooms, so they utilized their green power
and they bought the hotels [audience laughs] and then when they went
back and they told the man, the man said, ‘well you can't use you here,
we can't give you a room.’ They said ‘well no we can't, you don't have a
job either! Because I own this place.’ And unless we're just going to take it
by force, I'm sure that we realize that this is really necessary or possible
that we must get into the mainstream of controlling a certain model green
power.
00:06:56
[Clifford Johnson] Norma, may I respond to that as well? I see a
dichotomy in what Dr. Johnson says, but it's not the dichotomy that he
brought up, that he pointed out. The first dichotomy is the way you look at
the situation. First of all, he feels the problem as a Negro or a Black
problem, which is not the case at all. It has long since ceased to be a
Black problem, it's not a white problem. You know, it was a Black problem
as long Black people were unable to get from under the heel. Black people
are now insisting on being let from under the heel, so, therefore, it
becomes a white problem.
00:07:35
How do you deal with this new dilemma, this new situation, that you find
yourselves in? Do you permit the Black man to get a share, his fair share
of his birthright, or do you attempt to keep him under the heel and
therefore destroy the society? Now, this is precisely what the man was
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 4
talking about today, in this earlier session, that the salvation of this society
as it is, and I honestly cannot believe that it can survive as-is, but the
salvation is dependent upon the Black man.
00:08:15
Moving into the arena of the society, so far as economics are concerned,
the black man who is not accustomed to handling the dollar exploitatively
will be put in a position once he has it, to use his dollars, rather than to
exploit, to help people because having come out of a genesis in which he
recognizes the value of helping, rather than exploiting, he will, therefore,
use the dollar in a different means or manner than it has been used by the
white society. And so, therefore, we will get a total reorientation of our
society, so far as the value structure et cetera of our society is concerned,
so this is what I meant by the society not surviving as presently structured.
Because once we get an equally sharing on the part of people regardless
of what race, and you know that whites are about one-fifth of the
population of the globe, you're by far in the minority, so once we get all of
these other four-fifths of the world sharing equally in this economic state
that we're talking about, we're going to get a re-orientation.
00:09:39
And hopefully through this way society, the American society will survive,
but it is in this country, because the white man in this country is pitted
against colored people all over the world. So, once, through the process of
mobility of the Black man, demonstrating to the rest of the world that white
America knows how to live in an integrated society, and to permit its
colored people to partake in the society, then, of course, the vis-a-vis the
rest of the world, America, and the society might survive.
00:10:25
[Norma Noonan] Yeah. [presumably pointing to a member of the
audience]
00:10:28,
[Audience member] I'd like to ask the question to you, Clifford. Why does
the federal government require most of the anti-poverty organizations to
be non-profitmaking organizations, and do you think if this were different
that Black people could be able to help themselves more?
00:10:43
[Clifford Johnson] I got -- answer -- first part of your question, why? I don't
know, other than the fact that the government is a quote-unquote
‘nonprofit.’ But, I do agree with your contention here that we've got to get
out of this nonprofit bag, you know, got to get out of it. Everything that
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 5
Black people head up is nonprofit. Hell, look at the society it's
profit-oriented, we're a capitalistic society! So you got to permit that Black
man to get into some kind of operation in which he can make dollars off of
dollars, you know. Now we have, of course as I said this morning, the
most wealthy, the richest, the [inaudible] billionaires in this country are
people who produce nothing. Not one screw, not one nut, in our one bolt.
They produce nothing.
00:11:33
Their money go out and have babies, and make more money for them, so
we've got to permit Black people to get into the same bag! Where once
they can make a million, they can reinvest that million and make four or
five million, you see, and this is the bag they've got Black people wrapped
up in today or they can't make money because they don't let them have a
profit status corporations. Yes, I fully agree.
00:12:04
[Evan Anderson] On that matter of [inaudible], I happen to work for the
federal government. I, you know, studied quite a bit, but to me it's a type of
way like Mr. Pillow just spoke about. Our congressmen and congress
[inaudible] and so far and, as a gentleman here at the table, and myself,
we've come up with beautiful ideas and programs that could very easily be
incorporated into, you know, profit-making things. But you take for
example, we're limited so far. I think the type of situation is, you see
something happening, so let's go down there and be cool, you know, with
the riot starts, he comes running down and you might call it you fire
insurance policy, you might call your guilty conscience, or else you just
might call it, you know, security. But I think that, like he said, it could be a
lot of profit making things, a matter of fact, we'll always run into this
problem, whereas the federal government will give a grant to some type of
program and at the end of the year, if things didn't go to cool, or a lack of
interest is something to put in [inaudible] and a lot of times even if it's a
good program it just might not get funded.
00:13:04
It all the depends how they happen to feel that day, when they're voting in
Congress. But if this type of program could get funded right off the ground
or else if we had, even a small loan, you know, corporation we have that.
I'm talking about a large corporation loan. After that one year, I can't see
any way in the world where a person come up with a good, you know, a
program or an idea that will work to make money for people in the ghetto
that it couldn't take care of itself, and I agree with you 100%. I just want to
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 6
let you know that’s what Mr. Pillow meant when he said, let's start calling,
you know, if you believe in that [inaudible] congressmen and let them
know as, you know, you might even get your student body here to do it,
you know, and you might say ‘well what can we do, you know, half of us
aren't even of voting age,’ and I think there's 1,400 kids -- about students,
not kids, that go here. How many are here?
00:13:52
[Norma Noonan] 17 [hundred].
00:13:55
[Evan Anderson] Okay, well, seventeen hundred votes. They’re going to
start listening to that. That means 1,700 students, approximately, it means
that you also have double your parents at home. This is, you know, great
[inaudible] your strength. Why do you think that, you know, like if you ever
heard, it used to be when you wanted to become president, you go out to
the coal mines you go out to the factories, you shake hands and laborers.
Now where are they going? They're going to the campuses. Cause that's
where the strength is, and that's where the political view is because
they're trying to get you, because they know [inaudible] a year or two,
you're gonna be of that age. They'll be coming up for reelection, and and
that's the issue. You know, you are a power. If you believe in that, get
some people together and help us out, you know, [inaudible]. We need
your help.
00:14:32
[Unidentified panelist] I just make one quick comment. I think this is
entirely right that stop and think now who benefits? Who benefits, for
instance, from the employment of Black people, Indian people who
benefits from having them on welfare? Who gets that money? Well, it's a
guy who owns, you know, the big stores. It the small entrepreneur within
the inner-city area. It's the landlord, now who are these people? These are
all white people. They're the ones to get the money, flow of money, in
other words, you know, is out of the Black community, out of the Indian
community, and in the white community, so actually they're the ones that
benefit. And Cliff's entirely right that what we've got to do is reverse that
flow so that the white dollars begin to go to the minority communities, so
that they can begin to, in a sense, if you want to call it exploitation, okay,
but at least, you know, we've got it going one way, we have to, I think it
seems to me, reverse it.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 7
00:15:23
One good example of that, and this is a little bit different area than we're
probably talking about here, but I think it's parallel to what would be going
on in the inner city, the Black community made more obvious. Take a look,
for instance, at an Indian Reservation. Red Lake Indian Reservation would
be a good example of this. Now there is little or no industry on the Red
Lake Indian Reservation. There are some stores, the stores are owned by
white people. There's a community next door to it called Bemidji. The
outflow of dollars from the Red Lake Indian Reservation to Bemidji is
fantastic, in fact, if they, you know, one of their cheap tools that they can
use is a boycott of Bemidji. It throws everybody into an uproar in Bemidji
because the white man isn't making his dollars anymore and that threat
was used here a year or so ago.
00:16:11
There's a regulation, you can't have liquor stores, can't sell liquor on
Indian reservations. I think, generally accepted, that Indian people like the
rest of us drink once in a while. Well where do they go to drink? Where
they spend their money? In Bemidji. So who gets rich off of them? The
white people that owned the liquor stores in Bemidji, cause they can't own
any.
00:16:29
Well, you know, maybe liquor stores is only one example, but there's a
whole, where the dollars are, you know, are being taken out of here and
they're going into the pockets of the entrepreneurs who are all white and
that has to be reversed.
00:16:42
[Clifford Johnson] Norma, if Harry doesn't want to make a comment to
that. I'd like to make one other--draw one analogy here, and that is you've
got to compare your ghettos, whether particularly your minority group
ghettos and I'm speaking of Negro and Indian now, to a underdeveloped
country to use an international terminology. They are totally dependent!
They are totally dependent. So, part of the solution for getting out of this
bag is to make that ghetto self-sustaining. Put some business in that
ghetto, profit-making business.
00:17:20
Put some industry in that ghetto. What I mean is profit-making. Put some
grocery stores in there, and all of these things must be owned and are
managed by minority group people. And here you change in part, anyway,
the ghetto psychology that has created the problem. Here also you build
respectability for anyone. Because everybody respects John D.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 8
Rockefeller. You know, he's got the money, and we've got to do the same
kind of thing in the ghetto. Maybe not only John D. Rockefeller scale, but
the same process where we make those ghetto residents self-sustaining,
where they have dignity for themselves a great self-image and the kids
growing up in that ghetto can see symbols of success which they can't see
now. Only symbols of success in most instances is that pimp and that
prostitute.
00:18:26
[Harry Davis] I think a parallel can be drawn too of realizing that the core
city is much like the ghetto.
00:18:31
[Clifford Johnson] Right.
00:18:31
[Harry Davis] The majority of people that take money from the core city
move to Edina and St. Louis Park, spend their money there, improve their
schools, while our schools here go to pot, but they still depend on coming
here and taking our resources back away. That's just the same way as a
ghetto.
00:18:53
Now one thing that is, one movement that's being made in the very near
future of course, is the bank going in North Minneapolis. On that bank we
will have Black people running the bank, and owning a great deal, or the
majority of the shares in that bank. What will happen there, we'll put up the
shopping center with twenty or thirty different businesses, and then we’ll
train Black people in those businesses and after they learn the business
we'll sell the business to them at a small interest rate. So then the fact it's
sure there then we Black people there. It'll be Black businesses and you'll
say there would be separate businesses. They won't be integrated into the
community, but at least it'll be a starting point, so some of these
suburbanites that come into the city can buy something from the Black
people, and that they will benefit by it, because they will be there and
remaining there, not going out into the suburbs.
00:19:41
[Evan Anderson] This is the point I was going to add. Once you get those
businesses set up, then you know everybody in this room and a whole lot
of other people come in there with their dollars in their hands, you know, to
purchase what they have to offer in these stores. Same thing we do
anyplace else. Then you begin to reverse the flow of dollars and put it
where it's needed instead of taking away.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 9
00:19:58
[Harry Davis] You know, like one of those good soul food restaurants
where you can come in and eat. [audience laughs]
00:20:00
[Evan Anderson] I might also point out you've heard examples in how it's
gonna do. It is also, if you take for example, if you take Japan in the
Second World War. Well, I mean let's face it. You know, we went in and
we wiped them out, annihilated them, dropped it, you know, that bomb,
and then we came back and we said now we have a guilty conscience
after it's over, and we came back in and rebuilt that baby up, and now, and
I hope everyone here knows [inaudible] Japan is in today. They're one of
the leading countries in the world! Financially independent because we did
what, you know, we came in and gave them that hand, you know, and this
was just federally, you know, if these small business places would just
break down, I'm just saying small business, you know, you could just take
care of itself.
00:20:40
You might get into this analogy, ‘okay now I've heard everything you had
to say, but tell me, you know, why do people who drive Cadillacs and live
in raggedy houses?’ Well, they don't home that house and they really don't
own that Cadillac. The bank owns it, but it's theirs, and they'll go out and
get it washed and get cleaned and when they break out they'll be clean
too because they own that. Now why can't you see it, you know, why
should one, you know, drive through the ghetto he lives why shouldn't he
throw a beer can out in the street? He don't care, it ain’t gonna get
cleaned up anyways until they give, you know, ready for it.
00:21:07
Take, for example, the storms last year, you know. We had little kids on
the north side, nine to ten years old, cleaning up their parks, because they
were out cleaning up everywhere else. This is just the type of thing we're
talking about, is that once you give these people pride, you know, giving
this money get their own thing going. We ain’t going to have to go, right
now, our community [and write] ‘soul, brother’ on our windows, so we don't
get burned out, we worried about that, and this will--this creates this
problem, you know, we [inaudible] gonna have it. Well then there's
something of, you know, you own, it's something you have pride in and
that young brother out there is gonna see that, said ‘well dig, man,1 Evan's
1
“Dig,” used here is a reference to expressing support or interest, as in “I dig it.”
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 10
got a motorcycle shop’ or something, you know. Well cat2 says, ‘well I'm
going to school and give me a car dealership down here.’
00:21:42
That seems like a big joke, but that's what you do. You identify with those
white people, and you said ‘I dig that.’ Now, when you give us something
to identify with, outside you, well then we'll start doing it. Cause it's just like
when you look at it, you say, oh man that colored cat, right away you
turned off and when we see that white cat, it's the same thing, but every
time, you know, that, you know, that's why we have we have so much, you
know, admiration for the Black people that do get ahead that we claim,
you know, that some were militant people that are not Uncle Tom. Now we
just love them to death and, you know, if you gave the example, where
you take a hardcore person, and like Harry said, yeah, we get a cat that
he says, ‘Harry, I'm interested in clothing business,’ you know, so he
dresses clean on time.
00:22:23
He gets this opportunity to get this shop. Can you imagine what this would
do for a young cat to say, ‘well look man, there goes, a man I used to play
pool with this man, we played football together, he’s got his own clothing
store.’ This is what inspires people to go on. It's something, you know,
they can relate and identify with. It goes through the whole things of Black
history in the schools, the whole works. We gotta have our own identity,
you know, and we can't get it from you, you know, and that's just it. You
know, a real fair shake--
00:22:50
[Harry Davis] --I think one other comment on that, it just to make the
parallel again, about going back and billing up Japan after you tore it up.
We spend billions of dollars going in fixing up Japan, and they were our
enemy, and they would have annihilated us if they had a chance. We
spend billions of dollars repairing their country, and we let some of our
country even our own capital, where the Black people were living, still,
look like it was bombed, you know. Without offering any assistance
whatsoever.
00:23:19
We're doing that right here in the city of Minneapolis, because your park
board here, if you look at the park system, the parks in the ghetto areas,
the parks where the Negro people, the Black people live, are the lowest on
the priority list. They have new buildings put on it. Twelve blocks away
2
“Cat” used here is a reference to a person.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 11
from Nicollet Field is Powderhorn, and they needed a new building like I
need a hole in the head, but they got the new building and Nicollet Field
still has the old one and they won't get a new building for three years, you
see, and there are three times as many children using Nicollet Field as are
using Powderhorn. And if you look at Longfellow, the priority would have
even over Sumner Field in North Minneapolis.
00:23:58,
They had the same shack there at Sumner Field when I used to play at
Sumner Field when I was a child. I can't say how many years ago that
was. [Audience laughs] But it's the same building! It's the same building,
and they have made no attempt even to put any paint on it! And that's right
in the multiple dwelling unit section of town, where there are all kinds of
kids, you know--
00:24:19
[Evan Anderson] --Rats, roaches, outdoor bathrooms--
00:24:20
[Harry Davis]--everything else. See that this creates resentment and
people have no value at all what you care about what the dollar means.
Doesn't mean anything to them, because they never had it. You're talking
about examples. Well, right here in the City of Minneapolis, when I was a
kid, he's talking about something to look forward to, something to go to
college for, the only successful Black man I saw was a pimp, and the ones
that did have a college education were working in the post office.
00:24:45
[Evan Anderson] Right.
00:24:47
[Harry Davis] See? You have a lot to look forward to. Even your fathers
too. It may be possible for them to become president of the country, of a
corporation, to make millions of dollars, to go anyplace and every place
that their money can send them. But we may have the money, but there's
still places we can't go, right here in our own country, and this is what
creates resentment, and this is what has to be changed.
00:25:11
[Norma Noonan] Yeah. [presumably pointing to a member of the
audience]
00:25:12,
[Audience member] Evan said that Negro people need someone to look
up to. You know, ‘this person made it, so there's chance for me.’ I was
wondering if a Negro person who does make it or the professional, does
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 12
he stay right in the community or does he move out to the suburbia with
the rest of [people who make it or are professional]?
00:25:35,
[Evan Anderson] Let me tell you, we used to have that type of problem I
might say but, I think a lot of the brothers that moved out there, they were
off in that dream. I think a few of them are coming back. I don't know if
they'll move back, but let's take for example, we have people that made it,
you know, in a little teeny, teeny, what you could say that I made a
financially for a while. I'm not coming back to go to school and stuff. I
haven't moved out of the ghetto. Now Harry has, and I'm pretty sure that
Cliff has, but I don't know. But we're still in there, you know, we're there all
the time. You take for example a friend of our, mine, he happens to be a
professional athlete and, he's made it, you know, he doesn't have to come
back and they're coming back to help.
00:26:16
It's a cause now where like Gleason said this morning, you know, even the
cats that have made it, you know, that they haven't made it. What sense is
there in making it when you have to give up your own identity to make this.
And when I talk about identities, see, let me give you an example, you
know. You turn on the TV and I see you're John Wayne, you know, in
other words Walt Disney just ate it up. That just don’t get it. It has to be
violent. If you don't see John Wayne knocking a cat over a bar stool, it's
boring. Or, if you don't go to a show and see James Bond shoot 40 cats
off the mountain, then it's boring, you know, but you still dig this, because
you can identify with him.
00:26:47
That's a white man, see? But when I go, for sake of the identification, see,
but I tell you, one of these new movies, like I just dug to death, was this
one with Ossie Davis and Burt Lancaster. I had never seen no colored
man fight that long with a white man. [Audience laughs] No, look here, I
know people that went down--and it thrilled me to death. He didn't whoop
this colored cat, he tricked him a couple of times, and finally Ossie Davis
put the brick upside his head, man. This was great to me. Now, it wasn't a
violent thing that I dug, but this black cat [inaudible] just traded blows and
they were equal. See, and that's something that means something to me,
and I know that Ossie Davis they're coming back into the ghetto.
00:27:27
You take on your wall, for example, these pictures of Godfrey Cambridge.
Can you imagine that the schedule that they have, you know, it's just go,
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 13
go, go, and they're still helping their people. It's not the point that you have
to live on 38th and Fourth [Avenue South], or you live on Newton and
Plymouth over north, but the thing is that you keep your identity and you
help your people. When Cliff said about getting some money up and
helping the people, okay now take Harry, for example. One of the means
of us getting this bank was Harry. Okay so, you know he’s staying with his
people, he could have said ‘well, wait and I got my cousin here, and he'd
be good in his clothing store here, and mother's sister she'd be rich, but
no! We're bringing opportunity to the ghetto, and the, you know, residents
get it. You don't need fourteen years of college to get this type of thing.
That's what we're talking about.
00:28:12
See I can identify with Harry, you know, now you can't you dig this, you
know I come to your bank, I see you. Now I'm gonna go to the bank and
see me, I don't believe in banks too much, but I'll go to that one, because I
identify with them.
00:28:22,
[Audience member] It used to be that they’d say that the Negro who has
made it, kind of like the white exploitation [inaudible] the Negro has made
it also [inaudible] the lower class because, you know, they look down on
[inaudilbe] not help him--
00:28:42
--[Harry Davis] Let me think what we're trying to do what we hope to do,
what we hope to do and what we are doing. Doing right now. We're
making the Black middle class man and woman realize and recognize that
he must accept the pledge of the three T’s. And we’re going out to the
suburbia where he lives, doesn’t make a difference where he lives, cause
as long as he accepts this pledge and he will pledge to help Black people
with his time, his talent, and his ties.
00:29:14
He has to do this. He has to do this or he isn’t identified with us, so if he
doesn't spend some time with us, and give us his talent ,or shake in some
cash, he's not Black. He may be Black as coal, see, he's still not Black, so
we have no association with him. So this will bring them out of their little
parishes.
00:29:40
[Clifford Johnson] Harry, let me, let me--you can't understand the
movement of the Black individual who quote-unquote--1956 or there
before had made it away from the ghetto unless you understand what
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 14
white society did to the Blacks who lived in that ghetto, you see. Search,
for a moment your own repertoire of association of ‘Black.’ Bad, evil, it's
dirty, you know, on and on, blackball, you know the whole bit. So, it's all
evil, so there has been, there had been, until very recently schizoid
tendencies within the Black people, and Mr. Glover drew the analogy this
morning. They hated themselves!
00:30:37
Of course the moment they made it they got out of that ghetto because
this was associated with dirt, filth, evil, ugliness, on and on and on, so they
wanted to get away from that. They wanted to get away from--so they did
leave. Nobody had anything to do. They're never gonna reach back and
grab that brother and pull him up because by his residency in the ghetto,
he was identified with something dirty and evil and ugly. But coming back
to the ghetto doesn't necessarily mean that he's moving back into the
ghetto either. This is a kind of psychological identification with the Black
people who live there, though, I might have ‘made it,’ in so many words I
haven't because I can never make it as long as my brother hasn't.
00:31:29
As long as he's oppressed by the establishment. So, what has happened
here is that this racist country finally, the Black people have gotten over
this kind of schizoid tendencies and are being fused into one. We have a
Black community, I don't care where they live now. He's Black, because
he knows by virtue of that pigmentation, he could only go so far. He can
only go so far, but if, together, you become a nation you become, united,
you become strong and then you have Black power. These are some of
the things that Carmichael's3 advocating.
00:32:08
[Harry Davis] I think to clear up some of the suspicions in your mind and
what Evan was talking about, about the Black man fighting on par with this
cat in the movie, you must be realistic too. You must be realistic, you know
because you know Burt Lancaster didn't beat this guy, because there's
nobody, no white man ever beat Cassius Clay4 and he's the greatest
fighter that ever lived, you know, he's Black. Regardless of what his
philosophy is. You talk about strength and athletics. There's no way in the
world, physically, that you can say that you're superior. So you've got to
get this fiction, this out of your mind, too, when you advertise your super
3
4
A reference to Kwame Ture, then known as Stokely Carmichael.
The former name of Mohammad Ali.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 15
cereals and stuff like that, that's gonna make you powerful like Superman
and then you put a second class athlete on there.
00:32:52,
I mean this is dreamy, you know, you're dreamy. So you've got to be
realistic. You've got to be realistic, and you've got to spend some of that
green power on that man that's making it, you know, because you'll spend
five hundred dollars just to go down and see Cassius Clay fight. Or you
see Bill Russell play basketball. Some guys run around the end on the
football team, but you wouldn't invite him into your house for dinner, you
know. So, you gotta be realistic when you're talking about power, physical
power, mental power, green power, whatever you're talking about.
00:33:22
It all is together that you're gonna have to realize that you're not superior,
that you're not superior. Regardless of what phase you're talking about.
Even if it's your green power, see, that can't buy you strength, it can't buy
you health.
00:33:40
[Evan Anderson] I think another thing, on that on the same line, is that you
give up your own myth and your old bag to a fighting but you turn that
‘good Negro,’ you know, the one that comes up is nice to you and tells you
what you want to hear. Because, like I'm saying, you know, you have to
hear it told like it is. You never be in a world of trouble if you get out here
through these so-called what you might call a typical ‘good Negro,’ and
you get involved with someone that knows what's happening. You go into
that ghetto, you will be in a world of trouble.
00:34:05
Most definitely, you know, I know so-and-so, or something. But this is the
type of thing, you know, that's what I'm talking about. Cliff said we're
getting together and that's why, you know, you talk about some people say
‘we're afraid of Black power because,’ you know, ‘you identified with
violence,’ but a lot of intelligent white people are afraid of Black power for
the main reason he said that the Black people are getting ourselves
together. Look, you had us fighting among each other somewhat long ago
now he's ‘Uncle Tom’ he's Milton.
00:34:31
He's getting himself together, we don't know about him, but now we're
saying, ‘okay you don't dig me, I may not dig you we're gonna get this
cause,’ and see in this city it's really starting to move a lot of people
because you've got people like myself on that TV talking you got people
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 16
like friend of mine and [inaudible] we got [inaudible], then we got the Harry
Davis's and the Ed Pillows and we're all talking the same talk and you
people are starting to realize one thing. That's Black Power.
00:34:58
[Harry Davis] I think we are realistic too. I know that I am becoming
realistic of what my values are. Like Cliff said, yeah I could very well
disassociate myself with Black people, but the place that I'm employed at,
when they had the riots in ‘66, the first person they ran to is to me. What
happened? Now I'm supposed to know what happened, you see, because
I'm Black. You know, I'm supposed to have been one of the fellas that
threw the brick, threw the Molotov cocktail because I'm Black. Alright, so if
they identify me with that one that threw the Molotov cocktail, then I'm with
you, you see, because I never lose that identity, because I'll never be
anything but Black, so I must associate with him.
00:35:45
So I realized too that I can't disassociate myself with him, and in order for
us to advance, I've got to reach back and hold his hand, so that, wherever
I go, I'm gonna pull him right with me. I've got to hold his hand too, so he
don't drop back down into the bind that he's been in for a long time. And
we've got to help each other, and that self-help. See because we've
waited 400 years for you to help us. You haven't helped us yet.
00:36:11
[Unidentified speaker] You suggest one other specific thing it seems to me
needs to be done. I'm talking about this profit-making kind of thing where
Black people, Indian people, can begin to make profits. You've got to
make profits.
00:36:20
If you're going to make profits, you've got to make profits off where the
money is and the money is with the white community, it's where the
money is. So that you know you go in there and you begin to help them
make a profit. Some people say, well, you know, ‘this is a hard thing to do.
I don't even dare go over where these place -- I don't dare go to North
Minneapolis, I don't dare go to South Minneapolis, I don't dare go to
Franklin Avenue,’ but I think this has, this kind of attitude has to go, in fact,
if I may just be so presumptuous that if you go in there you know with
$100 in your hand you're probably more likely to get in, go with nothing,
you know. I want to spend this money here to help this guy make a profit
on his business, you know.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 17
00:36:54
[cross talk from the panelists who agree and laugh] somebody's gonna get
taken to the cleaners. Big deal, you know. I get taken to the cleaners all
the time by white insurance salesman, white auto mechanics, and the
whole thing, you know, so do you. So it's about time it's, you know, some
other people start to take people's opinions if that's what it takes.
00:37:16
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:37:56
[Evan Anderson] Talking about our own stores?
00:37:57
[Clifford Johnson] No, we don't have any.
00:37:58
[Audience member continues asking question]
00:38:06
Let me give you an example. You take your little disturbance you had
here, you had some places on Plymouth [Avenue]. They ran by, they know
who to touch up, you know, Black people that own places, like I said, didn't
have ‘soul brother’ written on it, you know, you take anywhere you want to
go in the country, if they even had a good majority of Black people working
there they didn't get burned out. Those places in Watts that stood after all
that burnt, there's places in Detroit that stood after all that burned. Look
here, I’m talking about--if you understand what I'm talking identifying with
one another.
00:38:42
Now let's say that Cliff, and Vern, and Harry happen to be in the shopping
center, and I know they're the only three in there. It's me and my boys, say
‘look here man, I need some bread man. I can't get a job, and the cat next
door, Cliff got TVs, well I can sel] them TVs and sell them to nice white
people.
00:38:58
I also heard it said a while back that we weren’t there stealing Cadillacs
and Buicks. Dr. Ralph Abernathy said that we're not doing that. What are
they stealing when they riot, then I’ll get back to this. Food, clothing, TVs
where they can make some cash, things that they need, but when I go
through that shopping center, you think I'm gonna get him? I might need
him to get me out of jail. [laughter from the panelists] There's a whole
bunch of reasons I'm not gonna be, cause I identify with him. He knows
me, I know him. I'm not gonna do any harm to him. You're the one that
does harm to me.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 18
00:39:29
You know, in other words, you know, that's the same reason saying if you
come in your house, you know, and you're mad at someone, you don't go
up and slap your mother. You might go out and slap somebody you don't
know, but you don't take, you know, this physical type of attention on
people that, you know, you care for and you identify with and, you know,
that be the same type of thing saying if I go out and get jumped by white
boys in Edina, I'm gonna come back over south and start whipping all the
colored dudes. It just don't work like that.
00:39:53
[Clifford Johnson] Just a brief addition to what Evan said. What we're
talking about here is how to eliminate, prevent the explosions you're
talking about in the ghetto. The reason we happen--now, Negroes don’t
own a damn thing in the ghetto. One or two stores, you know, and Evan
said, they passed them by and what I am, what we are saying here that if
you give those residents of the ghetto an opportunity to own these things,
whether they are in the ghetto or not, you provide hope for the young guys
today who are burning and destroying, older too, who have no hope, you
see, and once they own that out, hell there hasn't been a house in the
ghetto that's been owned by a Negro since there was a ghetto, you know,
these tenement houses are owned by rich Jews and rich white cats who
live out in suburbia.
00:40:51
This is what we're talking about we're talking about. We're talking about
putting them there so that those kids growing up will have some identity
and some hope for the future where he can go, What, if he does this and
this and this he can also achieve. These are the things that we're talking
about.
00:41:11
[Norma Noonan] I think we have one more question, yeah.
00:41:12
[Audience Member, possibly LaJune Thomas Lange (née Johnson)] Isn't it
also that they didn't own these places, but also they were being cheated in
these places too. It wasn't that just that a white person owned this store.
The white person was charging higher prices for inferior merchandise and
other things that brought out other injustices and one example that we
have at Augsburg is that we own Larson’s.5
5
Larson’s Fairway, a store at 2129 Riverside Aenue, was purchased by Augsburg in 1967 (Echo,
5/17/1967). It is now the site of the Oren Gateway Center.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 19
00:41:35
But the Augsburg community does not support that store, but no member
of the outside community, especially the Indian community, is employed
there. Only white people are working there. It's supposed to be a
community store. So, we can start right here, breaking out this green
power problem because we're not hiring any Indians and they live all
around the area and go to the store, and we own that store, totally now.
00:42:02
[Unidentified speaker] Dr. Johnson has a question.
00:42:04
[Norma Noonan] Yeah, Glen…?
00:42:05
[Glen Johnson, speaking from the audience] Clifford, if I understand you
correctly, you’re saying that one of the solutions for the problem is to make
members of a Black community or ghetto capitalists.
00:42:15
[Clifford Johnson] This is what the society is all about, doc.
00:42:19
[Glen Johnson] I don't have much confidence in the capitalist society.
00:42:21
[Clifford Johnson] Well, nor do I but we're talking about sustaining the
society as best we can as it presently exists.
00:42:28
[Glen Johnson] You're suggesting that once they become members of
capitalist society, your soul brothers will act in an enlightened way
because of all the suffering they've--
00:42:36
[Clifford Johnson] Now, wait a minute. Your terminology is confusing me,
what's enlightened?
00:42:43
[Glen Johnson] Well you used the term, I believe or something like it. They
wouldn't exploit people after they
00:42:47
[Clifford Johnson] Humanistic is the term I used
00:42:49
[Glen Johnson] Humanistic way? Alright.
00:49:49
[Clifford Johnson] Yeah.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 20
00:42:50
[Glen Johnson] How many generations will this continue?
00:42:54
Depends on the establishment. I say that we can make some major
strides in this direction in the next five to ten years. The establishment
willing, the establishment recalcitrant and unwilling as it is today. We don't
have any time. Time has almost run out. I say that America must take a
definitive stand and provide significant demonstrations of its willingness to
grapple with and solve this problem, otherwise we're out of time already.
00:43:39
[Evan Anderson] You know I might say Cliff too, that you know Cliff says
five to ten years. Well getting back to the aspect that I would like you to
love me, you know, I'm humanistic too, but the thing I will and must have is
your respect. And saying about ‘how soon can it be done,’ well we've just
gone over ways of helping each other, organization that Cliff is with,
TCOIC,6 we have OEO,7 we have [inaudible] programs, not only do you
have Harry involved in the vast majority of programs. If Congress wanted
to, well let me give you an example, then I'll tell you what Congress would
do.
00:44:14
They go over to Vietnam and like Mr. Pillow said, they take a person that
can't even speak English language, you know, and they take him and
within a month he's trained to do whatever they want him to do, you know.
So why couldn't Congress say okay and we face this and come down with
a blank check and say now do the job that would do away the rioting and
everything else. We can, look, we can build up our own communities.
We've got programs. I've got ideas. I'm sure that you probably have some
Doctor Johnson, that in some way, would help us.
00:44:47
You can even help yourself here at Augsburg. You don't need that federal
[inaudible] to come down and help the Indians, see but we're talking about
if we could get that or the door, the establishment. I don't want to get hung
up in a type of thing where we want you, you know, to love us so much.
That has to be a known fact, you know, because sparrows will still stay
with sparrows and crows with crows.
00:45:06
That's human nature, but the thing is it could be attacked tomorrow, it
could be attacked right now, if they've read out that blank check. Now,
6
7
Twin Cities Opportunity Industrialization Center.
Office of Economic Opportunity.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 21
we're not talking about thirty zillion dollars or something like this, you
know, but we're talking about a rough number, one hundred million dollars,
paid over a period of ten years.
00:45:21
We could do it ourselves! But what they want to do, you know, there's
such a violent nation they're gonna tell us not to be violent, in the
meantime bomb away in Vietnam and everything else, but that's the
hang-up. They realize the problem up there, they just don't want to get in
position to spend that money. And if America, if the citizen was gonna
stand up and say, ‘now look here baby, our security's being risked, I may
not dig color people either, but I do happen to dig being, you know, a
human being. I appreciate the fact of security for my children given what
they need, you know,’ and would be done like tomorrow we could be on
the trek because we're on the trek now, we just don't have that green
power.
00:46:00
[Harry Davis] You're talking about getting rid of your animosities, you
know. The Black man did some rioting within the large cities of our
country, but see you get rid of your animosities, your successes, and
failures and so forth, you do that by tearing somebody else's country up,
you know. You go over and tear up Vietnam, go over and tear up Korea,
go over and tore up Germany, Cuba, and every place else. You tear their
countries up, you don't do anything here.
00:46:26
We don't have the green power to go up and tear up somebody else's
country. We gotta care for our own country before you realize that we
want to get rid of our animosities that you have created in us, you see, and
that we are human enough to store these animosities and want to get rid
of them. See we're not some animal, we're just like you. You get rid of
your animosities in somebody else's backyard. We can't go to somebody
else's backyard, because we don't have the green power to get there.
Maybe we'll get rid of some of our animosities, you can let us get some of
that green power. We'll get rid of it over in Germany or Cuba, someplace
else.
00:47:00
[Norma Noonan] I'm gonna let it go [inaudible]
00:47:04
[Audience member, possibly Glen Johnson] There's an essence in our
[inaudible] question I think that needs a little more development here. If I
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 22
understood it [inaudible] we’ve been sold, in part, a bill of goods--I’m not
saying it’s good or bad, true or not, but a bill of goods that the salvation of
the country is within the Black community. And this is based, in some
respects, on humanistic tendencies, that is is not a matter of a materialistic
point of view [inauduble] The questions [inaudible] is this essence within
the community, within the people? How many generations will it last? If the
Black community is within the capitalistic society, will they get away from
their history so that they also become [inaudible]. Or not?
00:48:00
[Clifford Johnson] You have been, hopefully, sold a bill of goods. I hope
you buy the whole package. Not that the Black community has any
humanistic tendencies. This was not intended. This--what was, what is, in
fact, intended is that, unlike you, unlike any other nation, except maybe
the Jewish nation, the Negroes know what deprivation means. They know
what exclusion means. They know what suffering means. Dr. Martin
Luther King's theory of turn-the-other-cheek was nothing new to Negroes!
They had been turning the cheek for 400 years! All four of them, you
know, so this is nothing new. Now what we are saying here and back up a
step.
00:48:56
Unlike the Jews, the Jewish people, of olden days of Europe and fifteen
sixteenth century, they had the economic resources with which to buy less
suffering, with which to buy certain privilege, with which to buy certain
exclusions for themselves. The Black community in America's never had
any of this. Now, the point being that because the Black community has
endured in the greatest of depths of deprivation that they will be more
inclined to be humanistic, you see. Are you with me now?
00:49:34
Not that there is any inclination in each ordination of Black people to be
humanist, not at all. This just has to do with that culture that you keep
saying we don't got.
00:49:49
[Audience member, possibly Glen Johnson] How many generations will it
last?
00:49:52
Well, that was the other point that I wanted to make. It's hard to say, it
depends. Now, the position that I take here, is that we will get as a result
of this integration, thorough total integration, of Black people into the
economic society, will get a reorientation of that total society, you see. We
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 23
can say that it took us four hundred years to get this far. Four hundred
years ago, someone had asked you that same question, you wouldn't
have been able to answer it. So we don't know. If we are successful in
reorienting the totality of the society, it might last as long as the society
remains in that particular strata or structure.
00:50:46
[Unidentified person] Can I say--
00:50:46
[Norma Noonan] No, use your hand.
00:50:46
[Audience member, possibly LaJune Thomas Lange (née Johnson)] Do
you think that the white man has, really any right to ask the Black man,
does he feel qualified to participate in a capitalistic system when the white
man started participating in the capitalistic system he was exploiting
human beings from the beginning? So I don't think he is right to ask the
Black man whether he's going to exploit in five generations because he
started out exploiting people in the beginning so --
00:51:15
[Clifford Johnson laughs]
00:51:17
[Evan Anderson] Yeah. [applauds]
00:51:21
[Unidentified panelist] I think there's, see, there's another thing going on
here, too, which I think probably people within the college/university
setting are aware of, maybe painfully aware of at times, but there's a kind
of a cultural revolution going on, I think in this country in addition to this,
and which I would see even as you know closer joining of forces the
farther goes along here. Primarily led by young people, you know, who
have had it up to here with the system as they see it. The whole system,
the college system, the capitalistic system, the unions, the business, the
whole thing, and they are saying in effect that the system, you know, is
basically sick.
00:51:58
It doesn't recognize people's basic human qualities. It doesn't allow for
these to come forth. Instead, it treats people as things rather than as
people, that type of thing, and I think joining of these forces that I don't
think we can help but see some changes in the system, whether it results
in a collapse of it as we've known it, or total revamping, I'm not prepared
to say. I think, though, that we have really only a couple of choices: either
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 24
it collapses entirely or you open it up at all levels for everybody. Open up
at all levels, and then hope that once this gets infiltrated by people who
are not hung up in this thing about manipulation all that type of thing and
treating people as things, hopefully, that they don't lose their human
qualities.
00:52:39
Now sometimes that happens, I recognize that, but hopefully by infiltrating
the kind of thing we're opening up and so that it does have some effect on
the system also.
00:52:44
[Norma Noonan] Don't you think too that it would take many many
generations to forget hundreds and thousands of years of suffering? You
don't forget suffering overnight. The Jews if you, except for the Hitler
interlude, have had it good for a long time, they haven't forgotten.
00:52:59
[Inaudible question from the audience] I’d like to ask one question of Mr.
Davis, you--ah, or Doctor Davis, correct? Doctor Davis?
00:53:06
[Harry Davis] No. [audience laughs]
00:53:06
[Audience member] You were talking about banking in the sense of, you
know, using a bank in the Black community to buy and build a shopping
center, and then selling the shops to the proprietors eventually. Now, what
are the possibilities of the Black community in Minneapolis or any other
city withdrawing their money from the white banks and filling their own
bank and controlling this bank or setting up a target bank within that area
and buying that bank? Like, well what's a fairly [inaudible] alright, the
Northwestern Bank system. Buy out a majority of Northwestern Bank and
use that money. You'd have a majority of Negro money, you'd have a
minority of white money, but you'd be able to use the full resources of that
one bank, so buy out the thing. What are the possibilities of the Negro
community using a bank system to bring up their green power potential?
00:53:58
[Harry Davis] This is exactly what we are plotting to do, you know when
you're on the bank board, you get paid for every meeting.
00:54:07
[Audience member] Yeah, a hundred dollars.
00:54:08
[Harry Davis] You know. Right some of them get more. Yes, much more.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 25
00:54:13
Yes. So as a bank board member, you see, and if we had fifteen Black
men on the bank board every time they'd have a meeting they just turn
their money back to the stock, you just keep purchasing more and more of
that stock. The first thing you know they'd own the bank and then, of
course, they could buy out some other bank, you know, go buy out some
other business or invest--
00:54:32
[Audience member]-- or buy out the white man's ghetto
00:54:32
[Harry Daivs] -- right, or else loans money to some white people building
homes and then foreclose the mortgages, you know. [audience laughs] It's
the same thing, actually and what's good for the goose is good for the
gander if we can do this, this is where we'll improve.
00:54:49
Right, there's nothing wrong with it, you see, that's right, you see, if you
can't beat them, join them.
00:54:57
[Audience member] In my hometown, I live near the ghetto in my
hometown, I’ve associated with Negroes since I was little kid. And only in
the last five years, not five years, last ten years have I gotten any
prejudices because when I was a little kid, prejudices, you know a thing
that I didn't even know the meaning of, and then I moved to a Jewish
neighborhood, and I found out that the idea of prejudice against the Jews
was false and I found out when I, later on, in these past five years or so,
that the prejudice against the Negro neighborhood is also false, or
prejudice against any people, individuals yes, but as a group of people no.
The Jews have--oh, my track is that, through the money power of the
banks that the Jews have done and I’ll list some of the others: Krugers,
Rothschild originally were Jewish people and probably still are. [audience
laughs]
00:55:54
They have received social equality through their banks and I believe that
green power of the Black community, this green power of social equality
through the banks is what will eventually predominate over any other
power you just have done it before in history.
00:56:07
[Harry Davis] Green power controls political power too [inaudible].
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 26
00:56:1
[Evan Anderson] You're saying that also that you found out that people are
not prejudiced towards a mass of like Black people, is that what you were
saying?
00:56:20
[Audience member] No, I'm finding that the prejudice against a group of
people because of their background like a Jewish Community, Polish
community, Norwegians, Swedes, anything is false. I found out that
prejudice against a community saying that, you know, all Blacks are bad,
or all Jews are you know, money grubbers is completely false. Individuals
in each group [inaudible] bad individuals are good.
00:56:42
[Evan Anderson] I would say that suggests that instead of you moving
into your Jewish community that you move over northeast for a couple
weeks. I believe that you will be put in [inaudible] prejudice if you don't
believe that a segment of a community is prejudiced against another
community
00:56:59
[Audience member] No I found these prejudices are false, I did not find
that they are
00:57:05
[Evan Anderson]-- Well
00:57:05
[Audience member]-- I just find that they are false.
00:57:06
[cross talk among the panelists]
00:57:08
[Norma Noonan] Now listen, I'm getting all kinds of signals that we should
break up, but this is too good to break up so if you want to leave to go to
Dudley Riggs, leave. The rest of us will stay.
00:57:19,
[Audience member] I'd just like to say one thing in terms of, I've heard
[inaudible] expression that by having the oppressed have power over the
oppressor that some way or other we are going to [inaudible] humanity
and I don't think that this historically, sociologically, or psychologically true.
I think only as we deal with each other as human beings, one to another in
solving these problems will we solve them. I don't think if you whip a dog,
and then make the dog the boss, you're taking a very good risk.
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 27
00:57:56
[Clifford Johnson] I will only have to say you've heard incorrectly. This is
not been what has been said. You misheard what was said.
00:58:07
[Harry Davis] I don't think the oppressed want to take advantage of the
oppressor, they just want to have an opportunity to have the same
advantages that he has and then we're on equal terms.
00:58:14
[Audience member] Harry, I was just talking in terms of this humanity that
one is supposed to gain by being whipped and by being mistreated and it
doesn't hold much water. If you're mistreated you may learn to turn the
other cheek, but when you get a chance to punch back, you probably will.
00:58:33
[Clifford Johnson] Your statement here is quite correct in individual
instances.
00:58:39
Take the military forces during World War II, for example, hell that was
nothing more desirable than from a Black boy out of Georgia to get up in
Washington DC and catch one of his white oppresses in that camp. Beat
hell out of it, you know. But that doesn't change the fact that that Black boy
out of Georgia would still be humane toward other Black people who are
still down in Georgia suffering. This is the point.
00:59:14
[Audience member] There are white people down in Georgia suffering.
00:59:13
[Clifford Johnson] Give less than a damn, [someone in the rooms laughs]
you know, this isn't hang up. Whites, regardless to whether they're
prejudiced or not, regardless of whether they have been part of this
institution that has been oppressive, our representative by virtue of the
fact that you have a white face. You represent the establishment!
Therefore, you are an oppressor, you know, and Evan made point earlier,
you talking about blame it on your mother, and your grandmother, you
know, and your great grandmother.
00:59:42
[Inaudible response from the audience member]
00:59:48
[Unidentified panelist] Let me make a comment, and I think this is what
you know it's brought home to me by by one of the Black people on our
staff, when he and I were talking to a church group never came through.
We know what's going on now in our society, talk about the white society
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 28
for a minute. The fact that, you know, some guy can, this actually
happened, it happens all the time. Some guy, some white fellow, will be
laying out on the street, you know, just laying there, and people walk
around, you know, look at what the hell's matter with that guy laying on the
street. The very most they do is call the police.
01:00:18
That's a very most they'd do, or the incidents that are going on in New
York City that have gone, you know the whole bit. Somebody gets
murdered, they don't want to get involved. It was pointed out by this fellow
on our staff to a group of white people from this church, said, that is
inconceivable that a Black person would be laying on the sidewalk
anyplace and Black people would walk around and passing by and look at
him like that. Now, that says to me that the white community has lost
something, if they ever had.
01:00:41
I think maybe they did it on time.
01:00:43
[Audience member] Well I’ve see it on the Southside of Chicago, maybe
inconceivable--
01:00:46
[Unidentified panelist] That it's going to occur--
01:00:48
[Audience member] That it's going to occur, but I've seen it occur.
01:00:51
[Unidentified panelist] Okay, alright. But would you agree that it's less
likely to occur in the Black community, I asked these guys.
00:01:00
I don't know the Black community. I don't know every individual Black
person's relation with every other that much, but I know, I have a good
friend who's a principal in the Black high school in Chicago that it took him
three years before he could leave school after dark.
01:01:15
[Clifford Johnson] Sure because he was identified with the white
establishment, he'd become a white n*****. Sure that's right. No, but have
you ever been with the Negro riding or walking in a completely strange
Black community. One thing that you will notice, if you ever do it. Strange
Negroes walking down the street will smile or wave. Smile or wave
because they have this in common they know that they have all endured
something because of the color of their skin. This is what we're talking
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 29
about here. He's going to identify with and reach back--now today, ten
years ago it wasn't, weren't the case, but today, reach back and help that
negro.
01:02:07
[Audience member] [Inaudible] I see a contradiction in what you're saying
now. These people were not smiling and waving at this Negro principal,
maybe because he was a white n*****, but still took him three years to
perform the kinds of relationships where he could go through the territory
safely after dark.
01:02:28
[Clifford Johnson] You've missed the total genesis that has taken place in
Black America in the last ten years. There's been a whole psychological
reorientation and re-identification that has taken place in the last ten
years. Harry Davis, ten years ago, wasn't identified. Hell, he might again
stoned had he walked into some Black community, you know. This is a
fact. We are dealing with a different set of values, a different type of an
orientation in Black America today.
01:03:09
[Audience member] You mean Harry has to make his commitment
[inaudible] and has made his commitment--
01:03:11
[Clifford Johnson] Well, Harry had to make his commitment, yes!
01:03:1
[Evan Anderson] Harry understands the [inaudible] realized one thing and
no matter where you're at when the stuff comes down you can't run, you
can't hide cause you're still Black and you might have a whole legion of
white people there with you, but the first thing--you know the thing we did,
we understood this whole bag, you know, someone said this is what's
happening, but see we didn't come out and attack you right away we
attacked our own selves. We got ourselves together and we got the cats
that could hurt us now see, now I just think what Harry could do.
01:03:45
The position he's in now if he wasn't with us. We wouldn't be talking about
any banks, we couldn't get them. Well we got, we get organized and
ironed out these differences. We said ‘now look here baby. Either you get
in touch and walk with us or you're not gonna walk at all and you will be
the first one to fall,’ cause Malcolm X said the first man you have to get is
that Uncle Tom and that's the situation. That is the situation. We're gonna
make it together. Look here, you know, we're gonna make it together or
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 30
we ain't gonna make it at all. We're gonna bring everybody with us. Shit
Harry don't have to bring nobody with him.
01:04:13
Man he could sit up [inaudible] and just get filthy rich and he could run off,
and get on to St. Louis Park and have a big old castle and everything and
sooner or later we get to hear it. He's not stupid. He's realistic. You have
to be realistic and he still loves his people, that's all.
01:04:34
[Inaudible question from the audience]
01:05:41
[Evan Anderson] Just keep catching yourself.
[The recording cuts off at 01:05:44]
Green Power (afternoon session) (transcript), page 31
Show less
Transcript of “The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College,” a speech by Dr. Joel S. Torstenson
delivered on 1966 April 13
Oscar Anderson 0:00
[recording cuts in mid-sentence] a major concern in his life. Dr. Joel Torstenson. Dr. Torstenson
is the Chairman of the Department of Sociology ... Show more
Transcript of “The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College,” a speech by Dr. Joel S. Torstenson
delivered on 1966 April 13
Oscar Anderson 0:00
[recording cuts in mid-sentence] a major concern in his life. Dr. Joel Torstenson. Dr. Torstenson
is the Chairman of the Department of Sociology and graduate of Augsburg. He has his Ph.D.
from the University of Minnesota. He is presently on leave from the college in order that he
might go further into this whole matter of the place of the liberal arts college in the emerging
urban culture. And I've asked him to give a brief address to this group today, on this subject,
"The Challenge of the City to Augsburg College." Dr. Joel Torstenson.
Joel Torstenson 0:39
I have a feeling that the pressure of time really makes it critical for me to condense my remarks
in some very few brief observations. And I feel entirely justified in this, since so many of the
things that I have intended to say have already been expressed by people far better qualified to
express them than myself. I was very gratified with a with the stance of Dr. Blegen's
presentation, the sense of linkages between the past and the present and with a with a deep
commitment to the future. It seems to me, this is one of the most urgent needs of our time, is
that instead of lamenting the perils of our time, somehow, with a sense of optimism that is not
naive, face the future with hope and vigor and creativity, and, and confidence.
Joel Torstenson 1:44
Now, I just want to say make a few comments about the way it looks to me concerning the
challenges of the city to Augsburg College. It seems to me that if even if the pioneers who
planned and promoted the transfer of this college from a small village in Wisconsin, to its
present location in the very center of our great city, had had the pre-vision of pre-vision of the
social reality of 1966, they could hardly have chosen a more appropriate and strategic place to
locate the beginnings of this institution in this area.
Joel Torstenson 2:30
If you look at the map of the Twin City Metropolitan Area--as it is now defined by the transit of
Metropolitan Planning commissioners, as Dr. Naftalin, had recently alluded to--you will find
that Augsburg College, together with the University of Minnesota and the other institutions
that now form the University Development Corporation, you'll find that we are located at the
very center of this great emerging metropolis. Some of us have been lamenting the high cost of
land, you know, around here, when it comes to getting the land and making ready for new
facilities. And I share that sense of frustration about the rather exorbitant price. Yet, it may well
be, though, I'm not a complete disciple of those who think that the market really determines
justice, you know, [inaudible] has something to say about the market, being the automatic
regulator of justice and human society didn't exactly confirm it. But it may well be that the high
price of land is really a pretty cheap price. Because it seems to me we have chosen a very
strategic place to carry on liberal education in the modern world. It is as if we have a ringside
seat at the emerging and emerging metropolis.
Joel Torstenson 3:10
For those who think that we ought to have you know, fanned out into suburbia back in 1946,
when this was a condition, an option, I think we have, and there were reasons for and against
this kind of a move. It seems to me that in retrospect, I think we can agree that it was a
fortunate thing, that those who believe we ought to stay right here, that their judgment
prevailed. Now, I suppose everybody won't agree with that. But it seems to me in the very
nature of the case, our location is strategic.
Joel Torstenson 4:40
Now. I think it is our cognizance of this fact that has led to the theme of this symposium, "The
Challenge of the City."
Joel Torstenson 4:54
Now, this is is not a unique event in our country, and one of the things that has impressed me
about the theme we have selected, and the motif of our first centennial celebration is that it is
a very similar to the kinds of themes that are reproduced in other centers of higher learning at
this very moment. When I was on the campus of the of MIT, I learned that at this very moment,
there is an Intercollegiate Conference on the Urban Challenge. So while we're talking about this
challenge of the city, right now, at MIT campus, students from the universities and colleges in
New England are assembled to talk about the urban challenge. The president of the MIT, in
lending his support to this venture, alluded to the fact that the challenge of our time is defined-leadership, for our time, enlightened leadership to direct and utilize our technique, technical
power, and prowess, to humanize, to beautify, and to make economically viable, our great
urban centers, I would like to have added one more dimension to that make politically viable,
our urban centers.
Joel Torstenson 6:22
Now, there are many other ways in which the kinds of things we're doing are being replicated
throughout the country, and the development of centers for urban studies throughout the
country is one of these, I am not going to say any more about this, because our time is really,
really up.
Joel Torstenson 6:42
But I would just like to say, now why is this such a strategic location? And what is the challenge
before us? It seems to me that the first instance we are strategically located to do a creative job
in building an image of the city that is appropriate and adequate for the time in which we live.
Our address this morning, I think, has helped to convince us, more than perhaps we have been
convinced already, that we all have a strong legacy of agrarian fundamentalism running through
our veins, or our psyche, or our nervous system, or where just where it is, you know, where
these centers are is something of a problem. But in any case, we are children of an agrarian
fundamentalism living in an urban age. And I think to examine this historically is a source for
emancipation. History is always potentially a source for entrapment as well as a source for
enlightenment and freedom. And I think this self-examination of our historical past gives us a
sense of freedom from the traps of history. I'm sure that there is a lot of work yet to do to
clearing out our mental fabric of some of the negative dimensions of our agrarian legacy.
Joel Torstenson 8:20
Now don't tell all my farmer friends that I said this, they are still deeply impressed by the
agrarian fundamentalism some. Now, I think once we have come to terms with an adequate
image of the city, then we immediately began to see the resources of the community that are
available to us, we are open to them. And I think we are living, literally in a in a laboratory for
liberal learning, which is really unsurpassed in the upper Midwest. And we share this with the
University of Minnesota and similar institutions in this part of the country. And when I
mentioned the University of Minnesota, it is it is an interesting thing, that that the pioneers
who decided to make the move here made two judgments, which I think have proven to be
sound.
Joel Torstenson 9:20
One is that that Minneapolis was going to be a big city, and a great city, and we ought to be
located in that. And it was also terribly important for the college to be closely related to the
University of Minnesota. These two judgments, I think, have proven entirely sound. And when I
make reference to the University of Minnesota, it just inescapable that we were just almost
were inspired by the resources that are available to us here. The movement of the library
across the river is a is a great convenience [audience laughs] which will, I think will have a great
deal to contribute to the life of this college, we kind of get it for free, and we should never
grumble about our taxes, [audience laughs] we should send a little extra contribution.
Joel Torstenson 10:19
And then the fine arts, the symphony and the and now we're going to have the museum I
believe the fine arts building will be developing on this site. I don't know all the developments,
but it's just a great thing to be so closely related to the university, both geographically and in
the other ways which have been emerging through our historical relationships.
Joel Torstenson 10:51
Now, the political structure, I cannot refrain from identifying the political life of this metropolis
as a great resource for liberal learning. I simply do not share the anti-government mentality
that has somehow accompanied the agrarian fundamentalist legacy. It takes about four
minutes to get down to the courthouse. And, you know, students can take a trip down the
courthouse and visit, you know--mayor's don't have anything else do but do entertain students
who want to interview them. [audience laughs]
Joel Torstenson 11:29
But to, to get so close to the centers of government. For educational institutions, our time is
terribly important. I'm sure that we haven't exploited fully the potential resources here, our
proximity to the state capitol, you know, the freeway is going to get us within 5-10 minutes
from that place if the freeways don't develop too much phacosclerosis
Joel Torstenson 11:56
The whole, the whole pattern of government, as a part, an indigenous part of modern
metropolitan life, is a tremendous resource for our students and for the faculty. And we are, of
course, close to some of the pioneering work that is going on in the urban ministries of our
churches. And during the last three weeks, I've stopped, as a rule, in every city at some of the
leading universities and two or three pioneering ventures of the church in the inner city, and,
and as well as at planning offices and governmental offices. And it's an inspiration to know that
religious leadership is beginning to take a new look at the city. And they are part of the
pioneering team and the front, the frontier of urban life in our time. Now, welfare institutions,
other educational institutions, health institutions, and so on are part of the resource at our at
our beck and call.
Joel Torstenson 13:08
Now, having said something about the community as a laboratory for living, for learning, I want
to say something about the community as an occasion for creative involvement. And I can just
name it really, but I think that there is no doubt that abstractions are important, but to
speculate only in terms of abstractions is inadequate in the learning process, creative
involvement in community life is certainly one of the most important challenges of the city for
Augsburg College. And I am glad that some of our students at least have become more deeply
involved in political life in the city of Minneapolis and this is I suppose, a nonpartisan
observation.
Joel Torstenson 14:06
They are becoming deeply involved in in this experimental religious efforts in some of the
special problems of Urban Ministry. They are involved in research, I suppose, every year that I
read, probably 100 research papers, in which the primary sources are taken from observations,
field trips, and interviews with representatives of the agencies and political groups and, and all
the rest that that are part of our community life. And then in the last point, I do want to make a
comment that it seems to me a, a an ideal setting for a creative encounter with the value issues
of our time.
Joel Torstenson 14:54
I have been reading literature of city planners a good deal in the last few years, particularly the
last year, and certainly one of the most critical issues that they are grappling with is what are
the values that are to guide us in the renewal of life in the modern metropolis. And it is
unthinkable to me, that students and faculty at an academic institution where the legacies of
liberal education that reached back to Jerusalem and Athens and Rome, a few other great cities
of our past, that students in this kind of situation should be unconcerned about the value issues
of creating a life that is viable, both in terms of our best judgments of human, what is a humane
society, as well as in terms of our judgments as to what is a viable, metropolitan life in the
future.
Joel Torstenson 15:57
I can't help but say a word about beauty. We had a professor in English when I was an
undergraduate student here who talked about three crucial values, truth, beauty, and
goodness. And I think they're all important. I don't think we have a debate about that. But I
have become increasingly interested in the issue of beauty. It seems to me ironic, that we
should have a renaissance in the interest of art and we we traveled through miles and miles of
monstrous ugliness to see beautiful paintings, you know. Yet somehow we must be part of a
community that is learning how to fashion the forms of urban life, so that it not only has justice
and truth and, and all the other values building, but also a sense of beauty.
Joel Torstenson 16:53
And to make--this is not the city of beautiful movement, but it's a part of the value orientation
that seems to me a liberal arts college must be concerned about. Well, those are some of the
reflections that I feel prompted to make concerning the challenges of the city to our college.
[audience applauds]
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Tyra Thomas 2021
Thu, 7/29 12:23PM
25:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, justice, happening, community, floyd, affordable housing, george, street, folks,
voices, struggles, commons, stay, nurse, grew, augsburg, salvation army, minneapolis, heard
SPEAKERS
Tyra, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac T... Show more
Tyra Thomas 2021
Thu, 7/29 12:23PM
25:36
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, justice, happening, community, floyd, affordable housing, george, street, folks,
voices, struggles, commons, stay, nurse, grew, augsburg, salvation army, minneapolis, heard
SPEAKERS
Tyra, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:01
Okay, here we go. Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the
Augsburg University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade, I'm a student
intern with Augsburg Central Health commons, could you please introduce yourself for the
recording.
T
Tyra 00:19
My name is Tyra Thomas.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:22
Thank you, Tyra. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to
being interviewed, and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be
made available to the public.
T
Tyra 00:36
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:38
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 1 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Thank you. Okay, so can you tell me about where you grew up and who you call family.
T
Tyra 00:42
I grew up in South Minneapolis Powderhorne Park neighborhood. I have lived in suburban
areas as well like Orno, Wayzata, Long Lake, Eagan, but I grew up in South Minneapolis
and who I call family is my community of homeless and Street Voices of Change, church
family, and I am the oldest child of three.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:11
Okay. Do you have any kids?
T
Tyra 01:13
I do. I have two children, one passed away. My oldest is 35.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:21
Okay. Excellent, thank you for sharing. Sounds like you have a lot of you have a big family.
T
Tyra 01:26
Yes, and I have three grandchildren.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:27
Oh, perfect, perfect. That's awesome. Okay, so can you tell me about how you got
involved with Street Voices of Change?
T
Tyra 01:39
Wow. Street Voices Change is about to have its five year anniversary,
I
Isaac Tadé 01:44
taking it all the way back
Tyra 01:45
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 2 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
T
Tyra 01:45
then when we got together. It was a small group, just a handful of people. And it was
conversation around conditions at shelter. In particular the target was Salvation Army,
where all of our complaints were coming from, and within a year, the group grew from one
location to four.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:14
Wow, I didn't even know that.
T
Tyra 02:16
that's how much conversation and concerns folks had about conditions and treatment at
shelter.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:25
And so you were a part of the original group that founded Street Voices.
T
Tyra 02:31
Yes, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:32
Wow. So you've seen, you've seen the full history of the program.
T
Tyra 02:38
Yes, watch it evolve to where we are now at the capital is just awesome.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:44
That's incredible.
T
Tyra 02:44
Yeah,
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 3 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 02:45
Wow, Well first of all I got to say congratulations.
T
Tyra 02:47
Thank you
I
Isaac Tadé 02:48
and, and this is this is awesome and thank you for letting me be a small part of it. So what
did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for you now because of
COVID-19.
T
Tyra 03:05
Before the pandemic. I don't own a vehicle before the pandemic. I traveled a lot, so I was
always going across someone's community and seeing people I've may have seen in a
while, or being able to interact with folks. Being able to travel, because now I live a ways
from the city which is about an hour bus ride, And so it really hampered my traveling, and
because I didn't want to be exposed, right, of course, and it's going to happen the bus
would be one way
I
Isaac Tadé 03:44
and public transportation was down.
T
Tyra 03:46
Yes, and public transportation was down, so it was really hard to get around. Also I had, I
have a mental health specialist that comes to visit me, and that stops. So that was
hampering. We still had telecommunication where you can turn the phone but it's not the
same,
I
Isaac Tadé 04:09
of course,
T
Tyra 04:10
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 4 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
you know, it's just like, you know Facebook people can say wherever they want or they can
send you a text say whatever they want, but looking at people's eyes, and they say, "How
you doing," you're saying "no, how you doing for real,"
I
Isaac Tadé 04:21
right, feeling them in the room.
T
Tyra 04:23
Yes, in the energy and space so that was different and difficult, of course, to deal with.
Let's see.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:34
You talked about your extended family. Were you able to see them throughout the
pandemic or no.
T
Tyra 04:41
Yeah, that was difficult, like my mother. No, because we weren't vaccinated, yet, yet, and
she has diabetes, she's older.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:53
Okay,
T
Tyra 04:53
um, my son and his fiance, they did get COVID. And we did lose his father-in-law to the
pandemic. Because their other household, their extended family, the whole house COVID
I
Isaac Tadé 05:11
Oh, I'm so sorry.
T
Tyra 05:12
So, yeah, that was hard, he spent 20 days ICU, nine of those days in a coma and he just
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 5 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
didn't recover. So, you know, being able to stay connected and physically around people.
That was quite difficult because I'm a hugger. Yeah, and I just like you know I hug people
think I stole a few hugs along the way but I came out unscathed. So probably.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:13
Yeah.
T
Tyra 05:17
You know, it's just not the same but it's not. So I've got about 10,000 hugs saved up.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:49
Oh, good. Um, okay, in what ways has the pandemic changed your outlook on life. Do you
see things differently now?
T
Tyra 06:01
Huh, for myself that suffers from mental health, injuries. What I like to call it, okay. When
you say mental health illness, just means you're sick. Sounds like let's be around sick
people or disease, but if you say, mental health injury. It's like recovery.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:31
I like that,
T
Tyra 06:32
And to tell someone who just be it stay in the house, and isolate yourself is totally different
than what my therapist would say or my doctor was saying you know see people be
around people. And I learned to find ways to deal with that isolation. Staying connected,
calling people getting outside.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:11
Did you pick up any new hobbies during the pandemic COVID? Any new pets?
Tyra 07:19
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 6 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
T
Tyra 07:19
You know, actually no, I actually was able to pick up more work. I'm a volunteer. I'm
disabled, but I found more ways to get around that by zooming, you know, I've learned
how to zoom, and then I got more familiar with the computer and I'm not that computer
literate. Okay, so I learned some stuff good with my computer and yeah
I
Isaac Tadé 07:46
so exciting.
T
Tyra 07:47
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:48
I'm happy for you. Yeah. Okay, um, sounds like positive things, yes. In the summer of 2020,
the movement against systemic racism had Minneapolis, as its epicenter, with the murder
of George Floyd. Can you describe your experience living in Minneapolis/St. Paul, during
that time. So it's a heavy question.
T
Tyra 08:12
It is a heavy question because I was, I actually live an hour away from Minneapolis now
we're on a bus is maybe 15 minutes and, you know, I'm the, as soon as that happened, I
went straight to the site of Floyd's, George Floyd Square. And, did you feel,
I
Isaac Tadé 08:38
did you feel called to be there.
T
Tyra 08:40
Yes, because that corner. I was raised on that corner. 38th of Chicago is in Powderhorne
Park neighborhood
I
Isaac Tadé 08:49
Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
Page 7 of 15
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
T
Tyra 08:50
I know the store owner. Cup foods personally.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:53
Wow.
T
Tyra 08:54
And I also had conversation with George Floyd when he was working as a provider of
security at Salvation Army.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:00
So you knew him.
T
Tyra 09:01
Yes, not personal personally but we've had,
I
Isaac Tadé 09:05
but you had spoken with him
T
Tyra 09:06
Yes, we had interaction. And I just felt drawn to, I had to go. It was just too much
connection. And it was the second night, or the first, the night after that happened, and it
rained all night I was there from about 6pm until four o'clock in the morning, I could not
leave the space, I just felt so like, do something, Minnesota. Do something. And, I came in
the house sopping wet literally left a pole in my front door, I had to drop everything right
there, and I lost my phone that night because you know what, so to replace a phone. So,
but there was a lot of beautiful people out there just supporting each other and it just kind
of just struck awe-struck just kind of like, like pinch me. Are we all we're not all dreaming
right right, You know this, this really happened. Yeah. The Donald Williams is a good friend
of mine as well.
I
Isaac Tadé 10:22
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Okay.
T
Tyra 10:23
And he, when I saw him on television. It was just like, how much more connection, can I
have to this to this situation that is affected so many of us, you know, it just was deep and
too. It was just like, everything was aligned, if you will, to shine a really big light on the
struggles of black and brown bodies
I
Isaac Tadé 11:02
Yes,
T
Tyra 11:03
and a system of racism, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:10
In the past year. Do you see the city healing? Do you see improvements being made
against racism? Do you see communities coming together? Do you see racial justice being
done since the murder of George Floyd?
T
Tyra 11:30
I see communities coming together but I do not see racial justice being done. I see. There's
a word for it - we've just used the other day, kind of tokenism. Like the same old bullcrap.
Over and over and over again, band aids, but not real, like the police reform at the
Capitol so watered down. You know, just give them this and they'll just go away, you know.
We know we only make up, you know what, what is it 20% of 13% of population in the
states like people. Yeah, African American, folks. We have the highest racial disparity
speaks volume on what is happening, and so I quickly had to remind myself, yes we need
reform and policing, but that's not our only problem, and I felt distracted by that with all
the other areas like education and health and housing and street voices really helped me
to stay grounded on, like, all of those other things too. Yes, we must do all of these things.
And it's nice to have that community to help you do that,
I
Isaac Tadé 12:52
yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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T
Tyra 12:53
because you can't do by yourself, you probably know that. And then when we got through
Street Voices of Change got together, we realized we couldn't do it by ourselves, we had
to collaborate with others. And so yes, I definitely see community coming together, seeing
more just out in the street stuff going on, you know, and then a lot of that has to do with a
pandemic because we could meet inside
I
Isaac Tadé 13:17
people are tired of being indoors
T
Tyra 13:19
Right! you know so it means that if we were you can only have so many people in a
certain setting. And it's just healthier because the pandemic like said, I want to be outside,
and which is good because it drives community, they'll be walking by, like, what's
happening over here you know. And so, I think, like I said, I believe there's so much more
work to do.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:49
Yeah.
T
Tyra 13:51
As we were saying earlier about the three Beasts, the, you know, the COVID, George Floyd
the unrest that met in the street, and it was just like all happening at the same time, is just
amazing to now see hope. You know about it.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:17
What, what brings you hope personally.
T
Tyra 14:20
What brings me hope personally is that there's more community of colors that are really
important tables are really important, like for us to be over at the Capitol now on a Shelter
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Task Force, yes, you know, it's a big deal. It's a big deal, lots and lots of lived experience.
What else brought me hope? That Department of Justice, actually is all over the country,
talking about police reform, but that they came to this city to like, Okay. Flipping desks
now. You know what, what, what are you doing, there's so many things about the police. I
didn't even know, like, like all the search and seizures they do, where they kill for people's
pockets and related to whatever crime they want to related it to. They don't have to be
accountable for that money and we're talking millions of dollars. No one audits them and
things like that accountability is happening and that gives me hope.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:24
Good. Yeah, and what I keep hearing is, you know, accountability is not the same thing as
justice. Right. Accountability is just holding someone to a certain standard. Mm hmm. And,
and justice is more about righting the wrongs that have been done historically. And so do
you see us moving towards justice, or we're still at the state of accountability.
T
Tyra 15:48
We're still in the state of accountability, yeah, Yeah, that that term for justice. I mean,
yeah, we got it for George, but the hunt, I mean Emmett Till is still looking for justice, and
the person, you know, and hundreds of others 100 that we haven't even named, you know,
and the ones we have. Oh my gosh, try remembering them all. You know, that never got a
court date, never got an investigation. So, yeah, and again justice all around housing
justice, education, justice, you know, equal opportunity and employment, things like that,
education, education, justice, yeah. So real thing. When I was growing up here, what they
taught us about... black folks was slavery that was kind of the end of it. Yeah, I heard
about Harriet Tubman Yeah I heard about Rosa Parks, but there were so many other
things. Yes, you know. And then I'm, just the way should I say, the literature that's used that
relative to my black body. You know, it's like, okay I went to the store bought four apples
and then I came back.. but when I grew up in a community of a food desert, there weren't
apples at that corner store. Until recently,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:17
where there might have been chips and candy bars yeah, yeah, this, um, you know. back,
back in the day when I was younger than the, the cold wet food stamps the papers
stamps. And then the EBT card came, and then all of a sudden, the conversation about
food deserts, they're like, Well, where are they spending their money? On the corner stores.
So now corner stores have to in order to be contracted to get use of EBT, or provide
healthier food so some things. Yes, but actually no folks need a grocery store, right. I mean
Tyra Thomas 2021
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that's, yeah. Okay, we're almost there, you know, kind of dragging along.
T
Tyra 17:56
Exactly, exactly and the prices are high in those places anyway, so.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:01
Okay. Well, I'm glad that you have had, you know, hope in your community, hope, hope
and seeing representation, and hope in you know, some of these, the mandates being
lifted and allowing people to interact again like we used to just to be regular human
beings, yes, you know, and I'm glad those things are lifting you forward.
T
Tyra 18:25
Yes, yeah, yeah, yeah. Most things give me strength, like I said, meeting here in Central,
that gives me strength. Yes, I don't do nothing else in the week, this one day of the week
for me to come and do this is, it gives me strength for the next week
I
Isaac Tadé 18:43
that's incredible, get you through.
T
Tyra 18:44
Yeah. And so, and Street Voices, does that for each other. Time colleague and he's always
saying this is his place of peace, you know, just excited waiting on Thursday. That means a
lot.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:00
There's something special that's happening here. And I'm all about it. Okay, so the next
question is, is there anything else that you want people to know or remember let's say 30
years down the line, about your experience or from people's experiences, who may have
experienced homelessness during this period of time. What should people remember
about this period of time.
T
Tyra 19:22
In homelessness for myself, on and off homelessness for 20 years, with children without
Tyra Thomas 2021
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children. I had things that were I was dealing with in life. I didn't get diagnosed for mental
health, injuries, until I was almost 40. When I learned it, I realized I was actually having
those experiences as far back as I can remember when I was eight. And I used to walk
around Powderhorne Park, all the time by myself, depressed, not knowing these that's
what,
I
Isaac Tadé 19:48
that's what it was, was he didn't have a name for it.
T
Tyra 20:21
Yeah. And then I got older, And then I got into alcoholism. And so, those struggles are still
real. Right. But when I went to treatment for those things and I came out of all that. I was
still homeless. And then I was looking for housing, when that I didn't have enough income I
was now considered disabled. And then when I got all these ducks in a row and I
went...after all was said and done I realize it's not all my fault. And so that's what I say to
our homeless community, that if you're having those struggles, you know once you get all
those things taken care of, they're still a system of oppression. And it's not only your fault
that will work against you. Mm hmm. Wow. And so, to just keep standing up for yourself
keep fighting, keep standing up for yourself. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:21
That just gave me goosebumps. Thank you for sharing. Yes, um, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, Is there something
that people hearing this can help with. What issue should people be focusing on?
T
Tyra 22:00
Affordable housing, deeply affordable housing. And my dollar is just as important as your
million dollars, and it should have value. I, I don't have low income I have low wealth, it
means something to me it may not mean much to you, but it still has power, and it should
be usable should be walking around with the dollar like it's a wet food stamp, because
what I want to buy constants are costs that my dollar has value to. And so deeply
affordable housing is really where it's at. It's where it all starts, well everybody started at
home, right, and they went out into the world and maybe they went to college, maybe
they went got a trade and then they got their own place for deep affordable housing is
where it all starts. Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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I
Isaac Tadé 23:04
Thank you, that's very wise, very wise. Um, so, have you met the nurses at Central in your
five years here, have you met the nurses.
T
Tyra 23:14
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 23:16
Okay. And then the next question is there any feedback that you have for them, what is
working, What could we do better. Is there anything missing from the health common
center?
T
Tyra 23:31
I probably, you know I've been around nurse Katie for years now, and I didn't. I don't really
have anything, I feel like that's missing. At this point, um, all of the services that are
provided are, are really awesome services. And, and then even the Streetwork me and
nurse Katie have went to encampments together and or went to the same encampments
either route went separate at different times and so the services are there and the
outreaches there, you know, even outside the health commons, and I couldn't ask for
anything more to bless it, yes. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:28
Wow. Well thank you, if you let it if you do think of anything, you know, please let us know.
Okay, well, is there anything else that you would like to share with us today. Before we
finish.
T
Tyra 24:51
If the..I'll say this, okay. I found it quite interesting what I heard. If the opposites of pros is
cons. Wouldn't the opposite of progress be congress? Oh snaps Okay, keep finding. Okay,
push through.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:17
You heard it here folks, that is. Well thank you, I think that concludes our interview for
Tyra Thomas 2021
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today. That's the Mic drop. Thank you so much for taking the time to share your stories
and insights. Thank you for having me.
T
Tyra 25:33
Yes.
Tyra Thomas 2021
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Show less
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Thu, 7/29 10:25AM
4:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, opinionated, grandfather, oral history project, chicago, understand, surrendered, streets,
east st louis, central, people, haywood, commons, lutheran, oral health, educated, spirit, folk,
sociology, shared
SPEAKERS
S... Show more
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Thu, 7/29 10:25AM
4:37
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, opinionated, grandfather, oral history project, chicago, understand, surrendered, streets,
east st louis, central, people, haywood, commons, lutheran, oral health, educated, spirit, folk,
sociology, shared
SPEAKERS
Stefan, Isaac Tadé
I
Isaac Tadé 00:03
Thank you for joining us today for this oral health, oral history project for the Augsburg
University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, I'm a student intern with
Augsburg Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
S
Stefan 00:17
Yes, my name is Mr Stefan Lesure.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:21
Thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having this interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
S
Stefan 00:32
Absolutely. Thank you.
Isaac Tadé 00:34
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Page 1 of 3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I
Isaac Tadé 00:34
Excellent. All right, So can you tell me about where you grew up, and who you call family.
S
Stefan 00:39
I grew up in Chicago on the west side of Chicago. My family's from Kansas City, Missouri,
Sikeston Haywood city, East St Louis, St Louis. I grew up on the west side of Chicago. So
again like I said, it was never my intention to even be here in the state of Minnesota, let
alone be houseless I've never in my life been homeless because homelessness is emptiness
and I'm not empty at all.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:14
Yeah, so, okay, who do you call family than?
S
Stefan 01:18
I call what I call my family is what I call the old spirit. My grandfather's my uncle's my
Auntie's and even though they passed away that was always this thing my grandfather,
learned me about looking people and eye, he would not even talk to you. If you didn't
look him in the eye. You know you was not, he didn't know who you was and he didn't
communicate with you, he didn't know how to unless he looked you in the eyes and once
he looked you in the eyes, it was just like it was...It was just a totally different person that
you saw looking back at you. And I've kept that old spirit in my in my heart and in my
mind for years. I'm a writer. I had over 180,000 pages of history of a degree in sociology.
I'm also an educator in the streets with 54 years of lived experience and in the streets of
Chicago, and 12 in the streets of Minneapolis.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:24
Yes sir. So it sounds like you gravitate towards your elders towards people who have come
before you and who have shared their insights their experiences with you.
S
Stefan 02:34
Absolutely, it's called folk ways and folk tales, to be able to sit down with the young black
man and understand how he has to be educated, not how he wants to be educated, how
he has to be educated. The only true form of education for black man in this, it, it basically
is not existed in the world we live in today, and that's a shame. You know it's really a
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Page 2 of 3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
shame.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:09
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. Um, the next question would be can you tell me more
about how you got involved with Street Voices of Change.
S
Stefan 03:20
After being in state of Minnesota for three years, lost my job, lost my apartment. And I
understood that if I surrendered and became a part of the establishment that I can never
again hold my head up. So a friend of mine had brought me to the church when he was
the old church. And I said, and one day and it kinda was crazy, because at that time when
we first started out, everybody was opinionated so you really had to ask patience for
people telling you "man I've been at it for years," but over the course of five years, we've
learned one another, and we've learned the needs in certain cases, what causes those
needs to be and what causes the problem to be Street Voices, Central Lutheran, say, I
have since day one I considered it to be my sacred place of peace.
Stefan 2021: Part 1
Page 3 of 3
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Thu, 7/29 10:30AM
55:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, call, streets, minnesota, ai, state, education, situation, pandemic, apartment, homeless,
community, young black man, world, stay, son, black, involved, understand, churches
SPEAKERS
Stefan, Isaac Tadé
S
Stefan 00:01
Central Lutheran is my sacred place of peace, five years, if I'm not if I'm in this state I'm in
Central Lutheran on Thursday morning there's no other place to I'd be. And that is a true
commitment to a situation that's growing in a different directions but mentally, people
like becoming to understand that the burden of proof is not on the state it's on the
individual, starting with the individual. If you in the state of Minnesota don't have a clear
cut agenda, you will become a foreign of its fast pace. And that fast paced is basically no
return on that.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:56
So that's how you got involved, you wanted to stay ahead of that pace,
S
Stefan 01:00
you decide on the natural educator. My father was the head of the Kansas City Missouri
literacy program and my first book that I wrote, stating that I wanted to be that same
individual because it was all natural for me. I'm the only black man in American history, to
ever be called by two presidents to ever create a program called Community
Beautification that would have closed down to Illinois state prisons, until the police
department figured out that they didn't want me involved because they had a different
agenda. Under the rules of displacement. Now it's, you know, I'm here today and I speak
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Page 1 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
to David Hewitt about this every day and every week and every chance I get about
people. There's no way possible that you can uproot 5 million black folks who stay in the
country, and 5 million other foreigners who come into the country, get an apartment, and
just leave them to hang in a system that's what I call tedious and meticulous, a process of
dehumanization that has no return on punishing. Thank you.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:29
Thank you for sharing that. Thank you. So what can you tell me about life before the
pandemic, and what is different for you now, because a COVID-19?
S
Stefan 02:42
Before the pandemic, that was, that was a lot of hope, a lot of trust a lot of faith building
we went from four meetings a week back down to none, and then we opened up with 10
people. And the saddest part about it is to see that the African American community,
basically had nowhere else to turn, but to those churches who would open their doors in
the homeless community because I don't care what you say man, if it wasn't for Katie and
them and the nurses, nurses were the first persons who got me a bed when I was having, I
had to have surgery. They got me into an apartment, it wasn't the case manager it was
the homeless nurse. You know, and ever since I put back whenever I can, and brought a
greater understanding to what I consider to be a housing situation, and a situation of
people who, Minnesota is a, is a very dangerous state. I'll say that because it affords you,
and allows you to be comfortable, when you really shouldn't be comfortable. It allows you
to become content, and you really shouldn't be content. In that sense for a young, an
uneducated black man that's a dangerous, dangerous environment to be in. And I've
watched this situation for 12 years just grow and grow and grow. Nobody has one time
and for the last five years I beat education all the way from Street Voices to Change to
the capital. There's no way around it, you know, you can you can bow you can you can
build a million houses right here right now. And they'll tear them down in two days,
because they're not educated. And they have this hate in their heart because they're in
the streets at night, and nobody understands that. You think because you gave him an
apartment, that doesn't fulfill the void that he hasn't had any love and compassion,
respect and any honor. That's what's important to me. So I continue to do what I do I get
in the streets every day, five days a week, and communicate with people. I've put a few
young kids in college, and they've come through and it was like, bro, I've got a few kids
back in the house with their momma. Back letting them know man, the power of surrender,
let them go home with some flowers, wash the dishes and take out the garbage, and that
you ain't going to smoke in the house. That's all she asks! That's a roof over your head,
until you can do better. And it seems to be that it's Minnesota's is just conflict orientated.
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Page 2 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
It's like a step by step process. Once you get St. Olaf card, you're considered non existent.
You know, they don't respect or honor education, intelligence, or any of that. It's all about
getting $1 immediately. And that's the most dangerous setup for young parents, for
children for your community, because these are the things that are transferred, whether
we want them to be or not we can have the best intentions for our children. But if you
have them among toxic waste, nine times out of 10. It will suffer from it.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:55
And is that what you see manifest during the pandemic?
S
Stefan 06:59
Pandemic was most more frightening than that, it created a lot of withdrawals, created a
lot of isolation. It created a lot of separation with family. Fear is the most powerful tool in
the state of Minnesota. I'm afraid that I'm gonna lose something that I really don't have
anyway. You have to have something to lose. You ain't got something... Right, you don't
have nothing. And that's what homelessness is, that's what that statement is homeless.
Homelessness is simply means you void of any substance. I'm full of life.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:52
right
S
Stefan 07:53
full of life I seek the good and all things, no matter what.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:57
And that's, and that's why through the pandemic. Well, even before pre pandemic, you've
made it a mission to fulfill though that hierarchy of needs right first of all, first of all you
need clothing, water, shelter, and then after that, you know those things you can start to
feel those social needs, and an education and that's what you've brought to the table.
S
Stefan 08:20
It's a real strange situation to see our young black men and women's who are only
motivated by music and motivated by material things. And everybody becomes a victim,
under those circumstances, what do you believe it or not. Strangest thing I've ever seen in
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Page 3 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
the state of Minnesota as a young gentleman who had been homeless. We've been in the
streets begging. finally got a Social Security finally got his apartment. And he took these
people home because he lived with him in the street. Four days after he had this
apartment, they tore the apartment up, got him kicked out. And he's still homeless to this
day. And that just let me know that there's no boundaries. And if you deal with people who
don't have boundaries, they have some problem. That's why it's so important that I have
rules. Rules I have laws I have aspirations, that must be, not just for the sake of me, but for
the sake of our community of what's left of our community. It's, I don't even know how to
say it anymore. My grandfather used to tell me that "true beauty never shrinks nor does it
wear thin. But the truth of that has to be in your spirit may not be the next man spirit has
to be in yours." In order for you to see clear go forward. And that's been the joy of being
here, to be able to call pastor Melissa and say hey you know I aint feeling this one. And
she would sit down and actually tell you, "me neither. But here's what you have to do, not
what you can do, not what you want to do, what you have to do in order to get back to
what you..."
I
Isaac Tadé 10:50
Your, your best self.
S
Stefan 10:52
Thank you. That's what I've, that's the approach I've taken. Never once considered myself
homelessness. The strangest thing in the world when I was staying at the Salvation Army, I
have what you call the internal alarm clock. I go to bed at nine o'clock but I'm up at 3:30.
Doesn't give if I'm drunk or what, I'm up by 330. And I got up every morning and I cleaned
the two washrooms. Cleaning the dining room. A after a year and a half into this. I was
told that "we don't want to going, we don't want you cleaning up the washroom, makes
our employees look bad." Well you crazy, the employee look bad because the washroom
looks bad! That's why I'm cleaning.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:43
and that's the way you feel you can contribute
S
Stefan 11:44
Ain't a doubt about it. But the beauty of that is, everybody didn't learn from those few who
did learn from it, when they got the apartments they understood the value of keeping
things cleanly, keeping your associates in the streets, and giving yourself at least 30 days
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Page 4 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
to acclimate to your own room. I get to see feedback every day in the streets, there's, I
don't think there's 20 people that walk downtown, on a day to day basis that I've ever
met, before seen before, I've spoken to all the ID, all the police downtown all the security
downtown. And nobody, and this is shame, this is the shameful part. Nobody wants to get
involved. I keep hearing that same old, same old song. They don't care.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:49
who's they?
S
Stefan 12:50
the people who you see as different from who you are because you work a job because
you got an apartment and who are in the streets, sit on corners who drink or smoke, or
steal. But what we fail to realize is that was transferred to them they were born into that.
I
Isaac Tadé 13:12
They're born into that mentality raised in it
S
Stefan 13:14
Indeed! I mean yo mama smoke crack she got 45 guys coming in and out the back door.
Well, let's keep it real, this, this frustrates a young black man, and he becomes so abusive
behind that because he become gaurded, he don't want to tell nobody that he was broken
by what he seen from his mother. So he treats every woman like she's broke. And that's,
that's the part that we have to get out of the only way we can get out of it (*knocks on
table), "Hey are you doing?" You have to see something different, in order to know
somethings different. You have to be consistent power with that. That's why Street Voices
says, we decided that we'll wait till the meetings over when we have a debrief and then
you can say what you like. But in during these meeting, These are rules.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:06
These are the rules you abide by them.
S
Stefan 14:09
And once you learn that it becomes a valuable situation, then that plays a part in your life
you'll see yourself being separated from all the confusion. Another thing about Minnesota.
Stefan 2021: Part 2
Page 5 of 21
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
This is the only group of people in the whole state that's ever mentioned, a power of
education, and never asked the question, that's why David Hewitt kept coming back. Why
can you go without it? If your son is in steet with a third grade education, his homie got a
fifth grade education, homie got a second grade education. Another guy never been in
school. What do you think's going to come out of that? That's a disaster waiting to
happen.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:00
Nothing much nothing good Because we went to the challenge game, we enter the rap
music that elevates what you think how you feel, our children that become images that
they follow. They see you do some, they can't let you out, so they overdo it, and then
overdo until somebody else gets hurt to the process. And they become susceptible, like
second nature. That's that conflict is in our communities. It's not education, not further
progress. You got neighbors who don't even speak to each other. That's what Street Voices
wants to get to the point of being able to actually sit you down and show you the
difference between one mental mindset and the other mental mindset. The streets make
you guarded. You ain't got to do nothing, only see it one time, and when you see it again...
It might be too late.
S
Stefan 16:05
So you need to get involved, overreact and put yourself in a bad situation is
acknowledging it running away from it. This is what I don't separate. We young black men
don't have the power to courage. Don't do the influences in the streets today, under the
drugs that's in the streets today. When you have 13 year old boy telling you he got to have
his medicine, you tripping your own ride bruh. What you want to do about your medicine
when you get locked up, because it's coming. You keep going in these people's stores, it's
coming. And when it comes, you should be grateful that it came like that. And that this
often hurts, and we don't, but they don't even fear that no more. You know that's a damn
shame, they don't even think scared to die. Living in world is nothing no way, but it's not
that. It's that we, it is something that I was deeply thankful for. It's always come back to
the part you play before you can see and accept what they did, know why you got
involved, yeah. Know why you got involved, right, and once you know that, there's no need
to get mad, because you see the part that you play. And that should be a growth process.
I have a friend who I had called and asked her that question every night. "What have you
learned today, from all of that's been learned you?" Keeping a positive outlook is a must in
keeping sanity in this homeless community, because you see some things that just
mindblowing. totally mindblowing. Man got mad at the police took off all his cleaning, "so
you want to shake me now?" he got on the police guy. I mean this is, where do you go from
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that? so you use that as a measuring rod? you can't, you can't use a measuring rod, unless
you communicate. Forget what I think, forget what they say. And here's another thing
that's the most dangerous thing about Minnesota. They use mental injuries and mental
health issues as a problem, and it is come up, murder, murder and murder. Because he
had been mental health issues. My thinking is, you acknowledged the fact that he had
mental health issues, you bag up to get those who are qualified to deal with that situation,
and they don't do that. They won't do that,
I
Isaac Tadé 16:38
treat it as a health crisis rather than
S
Stefan 19:14
okay, perfect example when they get to the capitol of the day when the senator was
having a meeting, the lady drove up to Capitol step, drove around, drank smoke right
there in front of police around it. And then they said well it's a mental health crisis and the
brother said "bruh if it had been a black man, you would have drug him out of the car,
right there on the spot. You put her in the car with no handcufs come on, didn't do any of
that"
I
Isaac Tadé 19:42
right.
S
Stefan 19:43
These rules don't apply to certain people in the state. And if I will make a difference in I'm
gonna have to be extraordinary patient,
I
Isaac Tadé 19:56
yes sir.
S
Stefan 19:58
extraordinarily humble, because I've been had people call me a group of bitches and
howlers and I had never been none of that. Where I come from we didn't even allow that.
But understanding that if I allow you to pull me off my square and get into what you went
to, then I'm the damn fool. Because would you say it didn't leave a scratch or mark on me.
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Okay, that's how you feel, I can't change that.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:31
But you choosing to step low at that level, it's your choice.
S
Stefan 20:35
Right. The choices you make, you have to be conscious of that because you live in in this
baby so fast paced, you wouldn't be. It is demonic to see a 12 year old girl, trying to trick a
grown man out of some money. And it's, it's the demonic, but it is what it is. If, if I don't get
involved then, where else do I go? You get involved on and changing it. Would you accept
it and become a part of it? You close your eyes on it, you are a part of it.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:16
Yes sir, yes sir.
S
Stefan 21:20
I put a request slip in your box that I have a paper 18 pages long, it's called "A Condensed
Product" of 180,000 pages is called critical thinking, writing means stop exchange
abruptly like abruptly. But these topics are critical topics. Who are you? Who will you
allow yourself to become? What's learned behavior? How culturally conscious are you?
What part do you play? And a lot of us don't even think along those lines no more. When
the last time you read a book?
I
Isaac Tadé 22:07
Personally me?
S
Stefan 22:07
No, I'm saying, the last time you see, you have a few, and here's the sad part. Those who
do read in the homeless community, they read out of isolation. They don't read to better
hands, better, they read out of isolation, and they don't share nothing that they read.
"None of your business that you (*grumbles)..." you know, because it's their entertaiment.
It's not something that should be spread around.
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I
Isaac Tadé 22:38
Right.
S
Stefan 22:39
Our churches have failed in a lot of ways because African American churches because
they like to do things their own way, it's about what God said, it's not about walking the
walk is about your perception of what this book says istead of doing the basic things,
which is allowing the child, be the child to become the adolescent to become the young
adult and understanding these processes, and understanding that, especially not black
schools. When I growed up we had big kids we after school programs, there was none of
that. So, where do you son go after school? If your son, going to school with two phones
and a speaker, you think you're going to learn? You can't be your son's friend. You got to
be his momma. You know, "my baby. No baby." That aint no baby. That man, six foot 2. 19
years old he aint no kid. But you still buying him $150 Gym shoe. And when you can't buy
them, he got no job, no skills where you're going? In street. And that's what they do. 12, 13
years old. Rob and car jacking, with the first time something happens to do so that you
know is in the street, "My baby. My baby." Ma'am your baby is not your baby, quit playin
with yourself. You need to grow up.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:26
It's about being honest with the situation,
S
Stefan 24:29
No doubt about it. When I was growing, if I bought anybody home, my mama went up to
her like "Yo, yo, who your mama, where you live at? Matter of fact wait on the porch till I
call. That's how crazy my mama was.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:45
actually to verify.
S
Stefan 24:49
Well you know your son over here? And you'll see come. So we're with...if I brought you
home, and my mamma didn't know your mamma? If I gotta ass whooping, you gotta have
a an ass whooping, guarantee. That don't happen no more. "Don't mess with my son." So
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we have a lot of things to grow up to. But the one thing I really want to state is there's
been what you call a Hocus Pocus, the state of Minnesota. 12 years you 46,000 new
housing. Not 1% is low income. No more than 1%. That 1% comes in the suburbs, not in
the inner city, so they can take you and throw you out in Coon Rapids, Robbinsdale and
Hopkins, but these are 2, 3, 4, 5 different people. It's not a community of people, they don't
want to, I don't want that to happen anymore. The only communities is what you call a
middle class community, which is a suburb. And Minneapolis has a golden opportunity.
No, the African Americans in Minneapolis have a golden opportunity but there's no way
you can bring these people together, because everybody has their own agenda.
Everybody, the churches, all the black churches have different agendas, going in different
directions. All the programs, who get three, $400,000 a year are going in different
directions, instead of restoring the arms a unity, come together so first goal is "let's build
the building with the apartments, and we can have the programs on display, right here,
but it has to be one situation." Your program doesn't have to change. The only thing
changes is your trust and respect for the people that you deal with. And that's what we,
for some reason we can't seem to bring that together.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:22
What we lack is some unity. And I think I saw that a lot during the pandemic too, just with
leadership across the state across the country, across the world. You know
S
Stefan 27:33
There was you no... specially the statements so there was no black unity shown there was
no groups of black people gathered around giving out information, doing any of that. It
was all isolated incident. Churchs were just was trying to hold on to its members. Right,
doing all of these solicitations and all of that because you couldn't be in church, right, but
it was not a group of people a constituency to say "man as a collective, let's get back out
here, and let's reunite our communities." that will be the easiest thing in the world, only
two churches and your community. Mean to tell me y'all can't put together one project? I
mean to actually... black owned businessman won't even do business for black, black
owned landlords won't even rent to black men. So I mean this is an up hilll struggle, and
I'm just grateful that I have a conscious mind. To continue forward.
I
Isaac Tadé 28:34
It's a state of mind. Yes sir
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S
Stefan 28:41
Not being on never been, never will be homeless. no doubt about it. Yes sir. Yes, I need
some help. I aint affraid of that. Aint no getting frustrated, throwing a brick through a
window, none of that. You will ask for what you want, and if they don't provide? Patients.
Step two, step three, and step four. It's always gonna be a step left though, don't quit,
always, always, you can't throw your hands up.
I
Isaac Tadé 29:22
Speaking of, sorry to interrupt you here. Speaking of that mentality. What has brought you
home through this last year? You talking about putting one foot in front of the other what
helps you to do that.
S
Stefan 29:37
The people that I speak to every day in the streets. The mothers who've seen me, I'm glad
to talk my son, you know, your inspiration in the streets you know only OG out here, really
talks with some good sense. That means a lot because we're in a time and age where the
communication game is not about communication is about texting, chat rooms you know
hollar back. It's pretend forms, it's always about ducking everybody in the street. It's hard
to have a conversation with somebody on the phone you talk to personal phone, he'll text
your back "No, I don't feel like that." And that gives you nothing. That gives you no
inspiration I come from a family of people from my great grandfather to my father's
uncles when you have to sit down, you actually look these people in the eye. You want
some help, you have to actually communicate with these people. Right? There was never
no aggressive, nothing. This is what you want. This is what you get.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:58
And so for you it's been the communicate through this last year. Yes sir, especially in such
like an isolating time.
S
Stefan 31:07
Right. That was, that was a time when I think was back in February March when this first
pandemic first came down. It was hard to even communicate with people ain't nobody,
want to "back up"
Isaac Tadé 31:23
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I
Isaac Tadé 31:23
6 feet
S
Stefan 31:23
Yeah, it was it was it was a panic situation, especially on the buses. You know how many
911 calls Metro transit had right in the state of Minnesota, about you not being, "you got to
have your mask on, or get off the bus." The state is. I'm not going to say the state. The
African American communities throughout inner Minneapolis has basically become afraid
of one another. What I mean by that is that if you have a neighbor that doesn't trust you,
he doesn't respect you because he feels like you are not trustworthy for whatever reasons,
that just keeps going down the line and up the block, then your community is following.
Because your eyes is not on the community, it's on your neighbor.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:02
right.
S
Stefan 32:17
We have to get away from that, learn how to trust again we have to learn how to respect.
And that's not the easy thing, you know this sounds easy as I'm saying it's not easy to put
into play, right, especially for those kids who really never had no compassion on spending
quality time. They mama riding them around in the stroller smoking weed with them, them
in a store stealing. You know, I don't know if African Americans understand it, that's the
greatest gift we have is our ability to adjust, adapt, but if you're not afforded the
opportunity to know what you're adjusting to and what you adapted to. If you just go on
along to something that's been second nature in your life for the last 10 years of your life,
this why you can't do, how you will afford a child? He set the garage on fire. But you
bought him the videos, you you spoiled him, in the end you told him no. That's how you
got to that point. You know he was doing good for five or 10 years. Buying him shoes. Now
you don't have a job, money funny. You can't do nothing for him. And you can even
communicate with it.
I
Isaac Tadé 34:06
So my next question was going to be about. If people could, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, and it already. Sounds
like you've gotten into that,
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S
Stefan 34:21
yes, it will be education is the most frightening thing about young African American in the
state of Minnesota. They have zero history. Zero history of African Americans. I was trying
to explain 1964. They called it a riot. Black Panthers marched on the White House for
equality in jobs that summer. And they said, riot. Here, when they went to the Capitol, you
knocked the windows out you're went in and killed people. You call that an insurrection.
And right after 1964 you call it all out, you said we were militant. That's, militant means
that you're dangerous.
I
Isaac Tadé 35:25
Yes sir,
S
Stefan 35:25
Insurrection means that it's just organize thing that went wrong. but that's not what
happened. I saw what happened, and it's the first time in my life. Fifty-nine years later, I
got a chance to see what you call the proud boys, and how y'all truly operate.
I
Isaac Tadé 35:45
Right.
S
Stefan 35:46
And I still have a question. If you hadn't been authorization to be here, there was no way
in the world you could have drilled all the machines up there to climb up the stairs. No
way. So you was authorized. It just didn't turn out right. But that's a lesson for us, as young
black men, to know the difference of the treatments that come about because of white
privilege,
I
Isaac Tadé 36:17
and that's about knowing that history.
S
Stefan 36:21
I mean, Minnesota is a beautiful state. I love to see all colors of people come together.
Yeah, but that's the best surface level. Right, right, behind the scenes and there is some
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demonic people.
I
Isaac Tadé 36:38
Just because you have diversity doesn't mean that you have cooperation, you can have
tolerance. But that's not on the same level as cooperation, integration,
S
Stefan 36:50
and that's the new. That's the new form of education that they put towards black people.
Let me give you another example, every black man in the country, not just in the state of
Minnesota, knows that the state is what you call a free enterprise. So you can get your
issue on any corner that you want in this state. And that's their focus. They're not realizing
what comes behind the scenes. There's no structure, no order. Then there's chaos. And we
have a word about that. My fear for Minnesota is that in the next three years if it doesn't
change, it will be the most violent state in this country. No, it will be the most violent state
in the country to north, south, northeast Minneapolis, basically a daycare center, where
you have all these 250 groups of people that have 250 different ideas. They're going to
one in 250 directions, they get the money, like the father program project. You get $10
milion dollars, 90 days later you can't give a guy a bus card you can't buy him shoes when
you go get a job. Not a program is working.
I
Isaac Tadé 38:14
Nope
S
Stefan 38:15
you have an 85,000 year executive 100,000 executive. But none of this money is come to
the table. maybe 10% out of $10 million, hit the street, and the rest was in payroll property.
But property that has nothing to do with rehabilitating a mind. You know when you find a
father who's willing to get back to being a father, now that a hell of a thing. When you
kind of lose yourself and think you can become a great hustler in the world, you realized
when you go to jail and you realize that sitting for me it was a night isn't worth it. So I got
to get back to doing what I'm doing. And once you get back there, the help that they say
is there, there's not. It's not that. You get up yourself stuck out there trying to raise three
boys, is not a joke. Especially you ain't got no job. It's not a joke, right, you ain't got no
skills. You don't think you have is the learned behavior that you've learned in the streets.
Let's not a provider, that's a death wish. Yeah, and that's why it's so important that we
reiterate, education, history, not on the level of being man, back to what I see, what have I
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learned today, all that. That's a constant evaluation of everyday assessed reflection.
Thank you. If you lose one day. Don't be ashamed, not
I
Isaac Tadé 40:14
to put your pride aside,
S
Stefan 40:19
have pride? I don't play with that, that's a dangerous thing. No, not in these streets. And
then it's, they can't let go. I mean you can get into the smallest thing but you can't let go.
I
Isaac Tadé 40:38
I've seen it. It's real. I'm gonna just ask you a few more questions, geared for towards
health, the bottom there. What would you say that you need for health, as you define it,
what's helped for you and what you need to have good health?
S
Stefan 40:56
good health? I need to be able to get to the store do my own shopping, cooking, my own
create my own exercise program. through various question asking various situations. We'll
start with, with mental health. you aint thinking right, if you ain't feeling good mentally.
nine times out of 10, you wont feel good, spiritually, feel physically. And that's the way I
look at it, I have to, I mean there's no such thing is not able. It's no such thing as bad. And
if you feel like that, maybe you need to sit down and re evaluate the situation, because
there's no such thing as that. We got here we can get back. I believe that and if I didn't
believe that I wouldn't be out in the streets every day trying to convey that message with
other people. I have this...It's not a poem, its a statement, says "true gratitude is that which
emanates within us and pushes it's way out of us to shine in full view." And in doing that,
it's a genuis quality that you build upon on the day to day basis. I don't want to make it
seem like this is crazy, crazy, cause it's not. You have to really do some growing up, really
really growing up to actually get past this situation to not be frustrated not just want to
surrendered. And I mean it seriously, man, wake up in the shelter you ain't got no shoes,
man you got shoes. You know I'm saying you come in the washroom and you, and you
hang your shirt up to wash up, that man come in, take your shirt and put it on infront of
you. You have a choice here. You either will get fustrated till you come about my shirt,
which will possibly be a problem because you got an issue. So now I got to go to man, to
say Man, look man, but man, just pick the shirt, and I ain't going to trip. I just need
overshare to like get to target man, you have to you have to you have to be willing to
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make those sacrifices. If you're not, you'll find yourself in all kinds of conflicts and so
I
Isaac Tadé 44:01
yes sir,
S
Stefan 44:03
We have to have, not only do you have to want something, you have to understand what
it takes to get there. And sometimes it's not pleasant it is not easy.
I
Isaac Tadé 44:15
Thank you. Yes, thank you for sharing that. Um, the next question is, have you met the
nurses at Central. And then, or, you know, Central Health Commons. Is there any
feedback that you have for them.
S
Stefan 44:30
Oh wow. Yes, I've met the nurses at Central. We went out on a few runs to the homeless
encampments. We even found ourselves in a curious situation. And it turned out to be a
truly education situation and thanking Katie for that, I had to tip my hat for that. And I've
also had to deal with the nurses here at Central Lutheran in personal situations. Be able
to start to my blood pressure, and that got so high that I'm actually scared to go to that
hospital. I mean which still don't seem like it makes good sense but I refuse to leave here
too! so it all turned out to be in the best interest because after she did what she did, I had
to actually go to the hospital. And if she hadn't have, my thing is that if I hadn't been here.
That's my concern if I hadn't been here, then what may have happened if I was in the
streets? Somebody might have left me on the bench. "Oh he drunk. He high. See his eyes."
Maybe maybe got kidney problems, maybe
I
Isaac Tadé 45:56
could be a number of thing
S
Stefan 45:58
there's a number of things but for you to just look at me and measure me. You don't know.
So that's what I'm aiming to really try and educate us and bring this back to our point
where we can transfer. Since displacement. There's been nothing. We're able to transfer to
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our childrens. Our homes are gone, our communities are going. We become frustrated at
all the wrong things so we become frustrated and want to know.
I
Isaac Tadé 46:39
Take your time.
S
Stefan 46:44
It would be the simplest thing in the world, I have a program I really like to run across the
North Minneapolis is just a six blocks program a piece where you people have all these
homes and you're not willing to put in 20, 30 dollars a month, buy these properties in your
community. And whatever you use for daycare center after school programs peace
houses...But in order to do that you have to bring interest to the community. And that's
hard. That's the saddest part about North Minneapolis, South Minneapolis is halfway
there. North Minneapolis is like...frightening to where you can't trust neighborhood that
you live next to 20 years You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 47:45
take your time. You want me to get you a water?
S
Stefan 48:01
I'm not a resident, let's say, a willing resident of Minneapolis. But since I'm here. This is like
desire to understand the true needs of what has to be done not what I want to do. What
has to be done for us to be able to pass that along. I want to give you a copy of this
excerpt to this book that I wrote. It's called The Ghetto That Lived in my Head,
I
Isaac Tadé 48:39
That'd be incredible. Thank you.
S
Stefan 48:40
Yes. The Augsburg college right over here,man.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:47
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Yes sir,
S
Stefan 48:47
but you will be going to stay in Minnesota?
I
Isaac Tadé 48:49
yes sir.
S
Stefan 48:50
Leave you information with Pastor Melissa.
I
Isaac Tadé 48:53
Thank you,
S
Stefan 48:53
so I'd get a copy of this. It's the education that 90% of African men...It's not in the schools,
language itself is kind of frightening because it's not these terms not used anymore. It's
simply important education is no longer important to most inner city kids, you have your
young black man whose family's fortunate enough to grow up in a suburb, you might get
a chance to play baseball. Maybe the chance to play professional basketball. Might even
get the chance to play hockey.
I
Isaac Tadé 49:49
Right.
S
Stefan 49:52
In the Northside Southside? It's not happening. Because they're going to pull you down. I
mean to see a young black man who spoke. I'll give you a perfect example, friend of mine,
stays on Broadway. Son got drafted to the NBA, he was shot in the back of the head here
on Lyndale Park, out of Walgreens. And guess who did it? you wouldn't believe
Isaac Tadé 50:21
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I
Isaac Tadé 50:21
Somebody real close.
S
Stefan 50:23
His best friend. That is the saddest shit. To struggle to achieve that. Somebody just wiped
it out, like it don't mean nothing. that's what, that's where we at. And that's why I'm
committed to making a difference. You don't have the finances, you don't have the actual
people but you do have the heart, and your courage. So we sit like pastor Melissa say,
watch your eyes, not yet, we aint got time yet. You get enough people around you, and
this is a slow process. Yes, to get people like David Hewett involved, Trish Stature involved
and other politicians involved, then you can throw him in jail something put something
together. I've been, hawking David for the last two years about that, education,
education, education, Youth Link won't get involved anymore. Then they call people over
to their office, you follow this. When you get when you get through leaving, they give you
12 tokens. Now you tell me what youth is not showing up for 12 tokens you bought him a
blunt. You bought him a bag and a blunt.
I
Isaac Tadé 52:12
right,
S
Stefan 52:13
well let's keep it real. You asked him to show up and sign a few papers, so you can get the
next dollar, but they're not pushing back anything. They're just showing up for the tokens.
You're not asking you to sign these two papers how you still ain't got no house still ain't
got no education. And when we went to Youth Link, in terms of what you're not shelters
are 24 hours now. How many people can you think you could get signed up for GED
program? College program, a trade school? And they didn't even get involved! Because
it's too complex. Why would we have to do that, we just get them to sign this, they want
to do something they can do it on their own. people providng them the 12 tokens. and are
you crazy? because that's how it go. Yeah, that's true. Okay.
I
Isaac Tadé 53:12
Yes, thank you for sharing all that. Very very insightful. Um, do you have any feedback for
health commons, is there anything that we could be doing better. Is there anything that's
missing from health commons?
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S
Stefan 53:28
Oh, absolutely not. No. Okay, let's see. As I said, if it wasn't for the homeless, before, not
even here in central Lutheran I'm talking about the Dignity Center and other places, who
went out on a limb for me, I wouldn't have been able to have a place to stay during my
surgery in my healing process. If it wasn't for homeless kind soulsm and Katie's been 1000
ever since.
I
Isaac Tadé 54:00
Yeah, yeah. Wow, gratefulness grateful. That's incredible. I'm so happy that they were
there for you
S
Stefan 54:08
yes indeed You happy? i was grateful.
I
Isaac Tadé 54:11
That's right. Well I think that concludes our interview for today. Thank you for so much for
taking the time to share, share your story, your insight your words of advice. Your thoughts
S
Stefan 54:24
I'll get that for you and Katie. The first one is Hidden In Plain Sight. Okay. You have to kind
of read paragraph by paragraph, cause like I say it's critical thinking
I
Isaac Tadé 54:39
dig it
S
Stefan 54:40
and abrupt writing. The writing change but the mental mind has to stay focused on the
subject as a whole. Each one of those subjects changed. So, you will have to keep reading
then making the subject matter. I would really like to do what I call the speaking thing to
where as though, you can actually expound on a topic. As you, as you read that. But I can't
seem to find that platform. You found one.
Isaac Tadé 55:21
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I
Isaac Tadé 55:21
That's fine. Thank you very much.
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Show less
Mercedes 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
24:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, minneapolis, augsburg, happened, epidemic, live, feel, women, housing, mercedes, people,
katie, started, experienced, sick, riots, work, shelter, care, pray
SPEAKERS
Mercedes Ramsey, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:00
All r... Show more
Mercedes 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
24:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, minneapolis, augsburg, happened, epidemic, live, feel, women, housing, mercedes, people,
katie, started, experienced, sick, riots, work, shelter, care, pray
SPEAKERS
Mercedes Ramsey, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:00
All right. So thank you for joining us today for this oral history project at Augsburg
University's Health Commons. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm a professor of Nursing at
Augsburg and the executive director of the Health Commons. Can you please introduce
yourself for the recording?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:20
My name is Mercedes Ramsey.
Kathleen Clark 00:24
And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed,
and that having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:35
okay.
Mercedes 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Kathleen Clark 00:37
All right. So can you just tell me a little bit about yourself and who you called family and
maybe how you ended up in Minneapolis?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 00:47
Okay. Like I said, Mercedes Ramsey. I've been in Minneapolis off and on since 1983. A little
bit about myself, going on 11 years sobriety for alcohol, marijuana, dealing with kidney
disease and other health problems. What else? I've also like I said, been, went through the
homeless situation from 99 to 2007. 2007 I was selected, along with a bunch of other
women through Simpson's Womens' housing program that they started and got affiliated
with getting into my own apartment. I got into a couple apartments, but I wasn't feeling
safe. So my housing advocate helped me get into the Continental and I had been there
for nine years. During the nine years, I've faced different situations. I also done stuff for
Ayaan as far as being part of Resident Planning Committee, went to neighbor works,
conferences. Three of them went to Miami, Orlando and Cincinnati. We did a big ol
barbecue. What else? I also did different other things, did women's group before the
epidemic start here at Central Lutheran. Within that group, we did bingo, watch movies,
did some crafts. Hopefully, when this epidemic's all over, we can go back to doing that
again. What else?
Kathleen Clark 03:16
Um, why was the womens' group started?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 03:21
Why? I think is because we had Street Voices of Change. And then there's other women
asking, asking about it because they had done it was the 90s or early 2000. What before
the construction started here at the church? And then there was two ladies from Augsburg
that was doing it. And they were doing different things within the group. Something that
happened and me and another lady that participated. We did the started started it up. So,
but yeah.
Kathleen Clark 04:15
How did you get involved with Street Voices?
Mercedes 2021
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Transcribed by https://otter.ai
M
Mercedes Ramsey 04:18
How'd I get involved? What they're going in their fifth year? Well, when they started,
people was saying, "hey, if you come to the scoop on Thursday mornings, they have a big
breakfast. And now after that you you'll get a bus card." And as I like "really?!"so I start
coming to that, not just for the breakfast to the bus card but some of the some of the
sessions we were doing the talks were interested in me how they can get about getting
changes and Salvation Army at their shelter, and now, four, five years later, they're getting
it fixed so, which is good. It took some time, but it got done. What else? And then just
come in for the different topics and people met in different city officials in that. Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 05:30
That's great. So what did life look like for you, before the pandemic, and what is different
for you, because of COVID-19?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 05:41
Well, before the epidemic, I was coming here doing different groups in that I was going to
Westminister for their, their senior drop in center. I go to St. Olaf for their Tuesday club for
women. But it changed to where people could come. What else, and then when the
epidemic started, it just, you couldn't go nowhere. You know, they do, they shut down and
that. So during them times, I'd stay home, make sure no one comes and visits. But even
though it would be nice, but not because of the epidemic. I didn't want to get sick and all
that other so. And then I have a miniature pinscher just turned nine years old. So he keeps
me company. And then I would just take him outside and come back in, there was no
nothing else to do. So thanks for DVD, movies, and YouTube. And Netflix, I kept myself
occupied instead of getting out crazy. Crazy.
Kathleen Clark 07:15
So has the pandemic changed your outlook on life at all?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 07:19
To be more, to be more careful, wash my hands. It's not over. You know, every time we turn
the TV on, there's more viruses and some fungus thing going around now, you know, it's
just getting worse. And I'm a type of one to, to believe in my faith. You know, like they say
in revelations, "all the things that are happening are happening now." And then like with
all the...how can I say this? With the other shootings and stuff? You got to realize if you go
Mercedes 2021
Page 3 of 8
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
back in history, all that that happened before, and it's happening again, it's just getting
worse, you know, bye! Oh, I'm sorry. And it's just getting worse. And, you know, you can't
go outside, not even in the day anymore, you know, without getting shot or assaulted or
something happening. So, with me, I just, I gotta if I got to do something, I make sure it's
done before, or at least, those street lights come on, because I don't go back outside.
There's nothing out there except trouble. But as you can see, they do mean, they don't
care what day time of day it is. But you just got to keep your guard and stuff and your
surroundings and everything. I just pray that these young ones would stop retaliating with
each other. You know, it might not be their fault. Maybe the parents are not paying
attention to them and that, but you know, life is too short.
Kathleen Clark 09:31
We'll see. So in the summer of 2020 the movement against systemic racism began as
Minneapolis was the epicenter with the murder of George Floyd. Can you describe your
experience living in Minneapolis during that time?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 09:50
With me, Katie, during that time when that happened to the guy it's it just...So my opinion
is I don't know, I seen the video and stuff, but he could have just cooperated and did what
they wanted him to do. But I don't know, I think he just to me, and he more escalated it.
But like I said, it didn't change anything of me living my life, or doing what I got to do. It
ain't it didn't stop me from doing anything. I didn't, wasn't like scared for my life, because,
oh, all African Americans are out there to kill somebody because of what happened. But
during the riots, I just stayed inside and watched it on the news, you know, and just sat
there like, this, what happened back in the 60s, you know, or was the 70s when they had
riots, Detroit and Chicago. That's just what happened. But they didn't, though, looters or
whatever, they didn't have to go all these different stores and tear up, you know, or burn
them, and it just made it worse. So with me during that time, I just took care of myself. And
like I said, just to live, you have to deal with it you know? You can't get mad and upset
about it, because it's gonna happen, you know, and now that it's over, they're slowly trying
to build back up what they had. But that takes time and money and all that. So praying to
those lost stuff.
Kathleen Clark 12:04
Well, and for me, knowing you, as long as I have and knowing like, what you've had to
endure, as far as like many different health issues that's happened in the last few years,
Mercedes 2021
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you always are so positive in giving back. So what, where does that resonate from? And,
and I do want I don't want to generalize, but I do feel like many people are feeling more,
you know, despair, or hopeless, maybe right now, with all the different things that we've
lived through in these last few years. So what brings you your strength and your joy,
M
Mercedes Ramsey 12:41
My strength, and my joy brings me with them myself. Because, you know, like I've said, life
is too short. And with me, I want to enjoy it every day. And if I don't take care of myself, I'll
get sick, and I'll do my treatments through dialysis. I won't be here. So with all the things
that are happening in this world, I just, I got to keep myself positive, even though at times,
Katie, I feel like I want to give up, like, I don't want to be here no more. But I then like, sit
there and I pray about it. And you know, ask God to give me strength in that. And so I, I
tend to sometimes, like, "Oh, I don't want to do this, and I don't want to live life no more
because life is just getting so hard." But then I'd be thinking, well, I wonder how I would feel
whenever everybody knows that, you know, Mercedes gone to see her Heavenly Father,
but then I try not to think that way. So I just, I keep doing what I got to do and that's just,
take care of myself and do my best to live in little longer.
Kathleen Clark 14:22
So if there's something that 30 years from now that you wanted people to remember
about what it was like for people who are experienced who have either experienced
homelessness or are marginally housed or you know, have been living downtown, is there
what would you want people to remember 30 years from now about this moment in
Minneapolis.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 14:49
That to be more to give yourself more strength and things will be bad some days will be
Good, but always remember to keep your faith up and be strong about it. There'll be days
where you don't want to do nothing. And you just feel like given up. But you know, that's
why we have mental health groups and drop in centers and stuff. And people need to take
more. Take the opportunity of using them services, because we're losing too many young
people as it is, regardless if you're young, middle aged or elder, but. They just keep keep a
sharp mind, or keep their mind sharp or will try to, you know, being homeless and then get
into these programs. Yeah, you get a follow rules. Excuse me. You got to follow rules.
Regardless, wherever you live, you know, so. And if they don't like the rules, then that's why
some of them sleep outside. They don't like to go by the shelter rules. So
Mercedes 2021
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Kathleen Clark 16:19
Some, some of the people who might listen to this oral history might wonder what issues
or what things they could do to get involved or to help? Is there something that people
hearing this could help with, that you envision whether it's through, you know, just your
own experiences, or your work with Street Voices? Like, what's something that you would
want people to know or be aware of to work on?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 16:31
They want to get help in that?
Kathleen Clark 16:56
No, like, let's say that we share this with others who had been at Street Voices who wanted
to hear more stories from people about their experiences at this point in life? What would
you want them to work on? Like, you know, you have your housing shelter bill, you have,
you know, many different things like the evictions are going to start happening again. And
all those things like, Is there an issue like health, addiction, whatever it might be, that you
really think needs some attention, if somebody were to put some effort into something?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 17:32
What you mentioned a lot of though, you know, addiction and eviction and all other
things, what's more important is to, to help them get off, get off out of the streets, get into
some program. There's a lot of them around here. I think, now that you mention it, Avivio
has got in warehouse little homes, you know, that they... all they need is different people to
help them with getting into the resources. And if people were to get information and get
out and log into, into computers and print out stuff for them, because some some of them
need, you know, a little boost. You know, like, here you go. There's these different
resources. And some of them some people don't even know too many of what's going on
around here. Because they feel like they're too scared. Or if they do talk, they feel like,
well, in the house, some feel like I don't want to officers or the officials to get involved. So I
don't want to be bothered, you know, but yeah, they they had like something here where
somebody, say for instance, comes in and says, well, we need some help of getting into
some type of housing, well, then you just get up in that computer, then start looking for
different resources for them.
Mercedes 2021
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Kathleen Clark 19:29
And what was the big change for you that got you to get off the streets and, you know,
get sober, was there some moment?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 19:39
Because I had gotten sick of waking up sick or having a hangover or sleeping on this
couch or sleeping at this person's house and, you know, because you got to follow by their
rules. So it got to a point Katie I was like, I gotta change. So that's when I don't know, it
must, god was hearing my plea or something when I was at Simpson's womens' shelter.
And because the next day they were like, when Mercedes, we got to talk to you talk to me
about what? Well, you got to come in the office. Well, whatever woman said, I did it, I
didn't do it. So they're like, No, no, no, you're not in trouble. No, we're, oh, we picked you
and few other women to get into our new housing program. So from there, I, you know, I
was, real happy. And the advocate is supposed to get with me, and who were to drive
around and look at places, but I had already had places in mind, you know. And she took
me to one place 26 and Columbus, I still remember, and got in there. And next thing, you
know, I'm inviting my drinking buddies, and we're partying, carrying on and finally I'm like,
"you're only here in this apartment with me, because I got this place. It's a place where
you can come and drink." And then I like, "all of you guys to get out!" And then from there,
from then on, I just, you know, slowly working on myself. But yeah, every once in a while,
you know, they're like, "Oh, you think you're better than us?" Well you can get into a place
too, you know! You got to follow the rules. And and if you don't follow them, you're out. So
and since then, I've had a place. No, there'd be times where it was hard, but I made sure
my rent was paid and my lights. And now I manage my money and budget it when I can.
Might splurge every once in a while. But, you know, you know, you have people that help
you and you want to help them back? So I feel good about it.
Kathleen Clark 22:38
So being a person of color living in Minneapolis, has it been different since George Floyd
died in any way? Or is it been basically the same as far as like, just feeling any more
pressures or microaggressions? or any of those things?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 22:57
With me, Katie, I try not to even think on that. You know, like I said, it's times are changing,
and it's gonna keep going on and on. No matter one group wants to stop it and change it,
or another group just keeps escalating. It's just gonna keep doing and like I said, I just, I
Mercedes 2021
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just live my life and take care of me. I'm not worried about all that. It's gonna happen. You
know, I'm saying, you turn on your TV and something else is happening. You know, but
Kathleen Clark 23:40
I would say you take care of others too. You take care of me. Well, is there anything else
you'd like to add? Or?
M
Mercedes Ramsey 23:51
Yes, Augsburg, every times a nurse celebrates? We're gonna have pizza party, right?
Kathleen Clark 24:01
I love it. Okay, bye. We're sitting by the door. So everyone's waving if they leave. Thank
you so much,
M
Mercedes Ramsey 24:11
you're welcome
Kathleen Clark 24:11
This concludes our interview for the day and thanks for taking the time.
M
Mercedes Ramsey 24:17
No, problem.
Mercedes 2021
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Show less
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:02AM
21:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, epidemic, homelessness, person, blessing, nonsense, illinois, work, pandemic, stronger, katie,
strength, homeless, toll, stay, sharing, melvin, augsburg, minneapolis, mobility
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Melvin Jam... Show more
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:02AM
21:27
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
life, epidemic, homelessness, person, blessing, nonsense, illinois, work, pandemic, stronger, katie,
strength, homeless, toll, stay, sharing, melvin, augsburg, minneapolis, mobility
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Melvin James
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tade. I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
M
Melvin James
00:15
My name is Melvin James.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:20
Thank you. And before we continue, I would like to confirm that you consent to be
interviewed and having the interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public?
M
Melvin James
00:31
Sure, yes. All right, we'll need to be heard.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:35
All right, I agree. Well let's get right into it then Melvin. So, um, let's get to know you a little
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 1 of 9
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bit more. Could you tell me about where you grew up, and who you call family.
M
Melvin James
00:47
I was growing up in Illinois, in a little country town. Eleanor, Illinois area called St. Anne,
Illinois. It's like 65 miles south of Chicago, okay. And raised in the country. And my mom
had 18 kids by one man. And so now we're down to five out of 18. So, I'm 62 years of age
now. I'm blessed and not distressed, and I try to give everybody else, the blessings. Some
what of the blessings that I have rolled up, rolled up around and the wisdom and and the
thoughts and humor
I
Isaac Tadé 01:49
The humor is a good part of it. Yeah. So, you, you said you had five siblings remaining. Do
you have any kids of your own?
M
Melvin James
01:58
Yeah. Four boys.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:59
Okay.
M
Melvin James
02:02
They stay in Illinois. Okay, I'm in Minnapolis, Minnesota. Okay, yeah, it was, I was 45 years
old when I moved to Minneapolis, and I'm 62 now, it'd be been, been a winding road, you
know, everybody's life goes through a wind and roll, you know, I live in, You know, but, you
know, I kind of, kind of try to remain, stay correctly into the end of my life. Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:33
Excellent, thank you. Um, can you tell me more about how you got involved with Street
Voices of Change?
M
Melvin James
02:40
I was homeless here a few years back, and stuff and so I become what you say, what can I
say. Kin of your life, you know, try to follow the, the pattern, who can help who, you know,
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
Page 2 of 9
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sort of make my weakness, the strongest point of my life. And it was difficult, you know,
you know, but I think I found the nearest right path to walk down, you know, some paths it
was far off, you know, but I ended up finding it near the near path the follow to walk
down. Then I got to thinking about who I am, you know, as a person, you know, without
the thinking of a bad person, you know, and I'm not all that good either.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:53
I think we all got a little bit of that.
M
Melvin James
03:56
It was difficult work. I haven't, I haven't really reached any between harms in our I never
really put myself in harm's way too often. Unless it. If it doesn't benefit me I don't worry
about it. I don't worry about their, their, the, the nonsense. In life, you know, what nonsense
and will be available to you no matter what situation you might be in go through you
know nonsense gonna be there anyway.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:37
Okay, so what did life look for you before the pandemic, and what's different for you now
because of COVID?
M
Melvin James
04:44
Well, life. Before the pandemic, life was nice was gravy, you know, it was, it was
comfortable, you know, I did everything normal that I supposed to do, you know that to
keep myself raised as a human being, you know, and keep myself in a proper position. You
know they whenever they made here, it did it really take a toll on me you know it. Never
tripped over my own feet you know during epidemic, you know, but it slows down a lot, a
lot of preparations of things that I need to get out and do you know and people that need
to. People that I like to keep company with, you know, you know, they put a damper on,
you know, oh, on my lifestyle, you know, it's like basically like, I think everybody life is like,
put on hold. You know, you have to move to like you put on hold. There you go, but taking
all this nonsense drama care at all, you know, so I try to keep you away from their
nonsense, but it's available to you no matter what, you know, I'll come to you don't ever
work, but I was, as I stayed comfortable within myself, you know, everything, everything
worked out for me. Yeah. Good. Very, very well. Okay. very glad.
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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I
Isaac Tadé 06:17
Okay, thank you for sharing
M
Melvin James
06:19
I took some losses, you know, epidemic, but it wasn't cause of covid and stuff, you know,
peoples' health get to fail I just buried a sister back here July the forth, just buried a sister
this year July the forth, and stuff, it wasn't because of that epidemic, their healthcare just
keeled over on them. Oh, yeah. But everyday, families, family that stays together family
that prays together stays together.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:50
Yes sir, yes sir. Um, so, in what ways has the pandemic changed your outlook on life. Do
you see things different now?
M
Melvin James
07:02
It's about the same, you know, do I enjoy my life is coming back stronger and stronger and
stronger, you know, day by day, hour by hour, you know, you know, you have to kind of
think about where you was before the epidemic, and where you gonna be after the
epidemic, you know, you get to kind of put that positive mode back into your life that you
had before, the epidemic, You know and I think things do it work out a whole lot easier.
And to get back normal. And I think that kind of trying to think ahead of what you should
process. After the effort epidemic, you know you should keep that same process, you
know, but upgrade it, you know, a lot, you know, a lot different.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:55
How would you say that COVID-19 change homelessness or affected homelessness, I
should say.
M
Melvin James
08:02
they get affected homelessness. A lot serious not motivated in a person that living in a
own home, you know where they can be provided for and gone, give a person at home
that they got nowhere to go, but to the shelter where the shelter is not providing them the
shelter that they need in a life, you know, they really need in a life that they nobody take
the time to feel they need the to gonna try to say to you know, To give them the blessing
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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that they really need, you know everybody is, you know, they've got a job, concept, you
know that don't involve homelessness, you know, don't involve homeless you home that
you get home, you know this, this is this is this, this is the service, we got you you want it,
you take it, you know, if you want it you want it, you're not getting it.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:09
Yeah, thank you for sharing that. I'm in the summer 2020 The movement against systemic
racism had Minneapolis at its epicenter, with the murder of George Floyd. Um, can you
describe your experience living in Minneapolis St. Paul during that time. It's a heavy
question
M
Melvin James
09:33
Yeah this is serious. Nonsense take a take a hold up in everybody's life. nonsense take a
hold up in everybody life, you know, and you take you take advantage of that nonsense,
you know, it's no, it's no, it's gonna, it's gonna through some red flags, you know, and it's
other people that doesn't challenge you on what you about what you work in for what
you're trying to learn, you know, that's, you know, that's, that's, that's a toll. You know
that's a toll, each and everywhere's life, you know. cuz you got to understand that other
people, different people lives matter to different people's, you know, it's a concept of what
you got to invite to, you know, what do you have to bring to the table, you know, you
bring you bring, You can't, you can't take. You can't take you can take a round table, and
make it a square, you know, you take a square table and make it round, you know, but
how round Do you want this table to be, you want to tell will be round enough for people
to sit around round enough for people to learn from around enough people to eat off. You
know, this is you know this is just, it's just a question on each and everybody's action in
everybody's head.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:04
What has brought you strength and hope through the last year.
M
Melvin James
11:09
Because I'm blessed not to distress for one thing, you know, and I do not let stress really
get to get to my soul. You know always tried to be blessed, you know with all types of evil,
you know, are trying to keep, keep my blessing. This is my priority my blessing is my
strength my blessing is my, my, my speaking. And my blessing, you know this is my
hungryness, you know, I'm starving for more blessing. I'm hungry for more blessings and
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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blessings, never, never bertrayed you.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:52
I like that. I like that. So is there anything else that you want people to know or remember
30 years from now, about the experience. It's the experience of homelessness during this
period of time. What do you want people to remember.
M
Melvin James
12:10
Remember to hope, the hope that you get it life the hope that you, you get that you build
a strength for, you know you got to have hope. Have strength, to learn from our mistakes,
you know, the strength to strength. Strength on a soul in your body in your mind is the
strength of your life, you know, this is firstly your life, you keep that strength life upon you,
you know, you get you get stronger and stronger.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:41
That's what you want people to remember. Just beautiful. Um, if you could ask people to
work on something or get involved in an issue, what would that be, is there something that
people hearing this could help with what issues need more attention.
M
Melvin James
13:02
Violence. Trust. It's sort of a different flaw and every day. There's a different flaws and
every day but keep your head up, you know, keep yourself. To keep yourself out of harm's
way and in mobility yourself to be stronger, you know by everybody else's strong, you
know, trying to be strong, you know, invite you know, they strong this, instead of they
always be weak, you know, never, never, never challenged the book by a cover. Yeah. Y'all
we had to y'all we had to open the book to read the pages to see how, each and
everybody life is. You just can't look at the cover and judge a person by their appearance.
Yet, you go to somebody by their apearance, you miss the whole message you missing the
whole message, you have to open the book and read the pages of this notebook of life.
I
Isaac Tadé 14:20
So are you saying that people shouldn't make make assumptions and that they should
live experiences so that they can know where to be like helpful?
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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M
Melvin James
14:33
Oh yeah, yes. I mean, don't don't put yourself to be homeless, you know, homeless.
Homeless Not, Not, not, not a class act. there's something that that comes overnight, you
know, you might wake up in the morning you might you might do some you might say
something to somebody, somebody might, you know, don't, don't appeal of what you say
or don't approve of what she's saying or what do you want to do, you know, and that can
that can take that could take your life backwards. That could take your life backwards,
you know, i think for some sort of some some, you know, in aint about drug and alcohol,
contents or nothing like that, you know, but that can be it can be our total fault, too. But
keeping you keeping your mind, mobility in a positive state. If you lose a positive state
that you might lose out on everything, you know, that can bring you to homelessness and,
you know, trying to try to try to pay Paul, trying to rob Paul to pay to pay Peter, you know,
you voice, you work against yourself. You never take you never should work against
yourself, you should be able to work with others.
I
Isaac Tadé 16:06
Okay, thank you. And just a few final questions geared towards health. What would you
say that you need for health? What do you need for good health?
M
Melvin James
16:20
good vitamins. Okay, good positive role model. Good a good for good, you know, he take
a good or bad, good for good. And try to...it's hard to try to eat right, you know, we, we get
a certain age, you know, when you're a kid, you know you can your parent. Somebody
that's overseeing you can, can, can help you feed yourself right but once you get older,
you really doesn't. Yeah, you really doesn't, you know, you want to do just stay healthy.
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:25
Have you met the nurses at Central? And then, do you have any feedback for them.
M
Melvin James
17:31
Oh yeah they good people. A really good part of the people they people person, you don't
have it. Everybody I think come to the site about three to four times a year, maybe less. I
really don't keep count I just ideas come where, where I know I can feel creative, or I can
feel life, or I can feel wanted to feel love, you know,
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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I
Isaac Tadé 18:00
And you feel those things here?
M
Melvin James
18:01
All right, good. That's why I come, yeah come to here all the time, you know, because I
feel, I feel like this big old coffee house. Yeah with enjoyment, you know that keeps me to
come and sit down and you can basically talk about anything that going on with what in
your life, and ask them about how they life, treat now, you know, you know, Katie. She's,
she's a wonderful, she's a wonderful girl. And all her all her followers were
I
Isaac Tadé 18:35
little disciples
M
Melvin James
18:36
right you know, they, you know she out he hand picked them her group, it that they want
to hang out with it, you know, but I feel that the group of people that that Katie mends
with is good people like her, you know, good, good positive people like her, you know, as I
come through her you know and I see a new face a new nurse or something, you know,
And they say back you know they like. I'm trying but you know I'm trying to, you know, not
to get too evolved in a homeless person or a lot of visitors. And I'm like, "well it's your first
time? yeah well it's my first time too.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:34
relatability
M
Melvin James
19:35
right yeah, my first time here today. Oh, don't, don't, don't, don't, don't, you know, don't,
don't be afraid, you know, say something we just people right, you know, Yes, you know,
just be careful, a while for you to open up, you know, around you around peoples that is
less, less, less unfortunate, but what, but they try to, they try to not try to force they selves
what they try to learn your education as you try to learn my education, right, like, Yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 20:15
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okay. Yeah. Okay, thank you. That's really good feedback for the nurses I think they'll
appreciate that. Um, is there anything else you'd like to share before we finish today.
M
Melvin James
20:28
I appreciate every day this church in every place I go, you know they welcomed me with
open arms and, you know, let me, let me joke with them and, You know, they gave me
some feedback some joking feedback. And I like that I like, like a strong person, you know,
a person that won't be a person, you know, definitely a people person, you know, that
excites me. It keeps me motivated, you know, I know, I know where to come, when I, when
I feel like I'm down all I gotta do is think of, Central Lutheran Church, Katie, all in them,
you know, and that brightens my day. You know,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:12
that's beautiful.
M
Melvin James
21:13
Brigthens my day.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:14
Okay, well thank you, that's all the questions I have for today. Again, thank you for taking
your time and for sharing your stories and insights, Oh, you're all right. Thank you.
Melvin James: Oral History 2021
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Show less
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral
History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:31AM
26:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, floyd, augustana, exodus, catholic charities, place, whatnot, augsburg, george,
receive, put, voices, commons, life, stimulus, homeless, stay, caddy, frostbite
SPEAKERS
Grant Tyus S... Show more
Grant Tyus & Robert Nammar: Oral
History 2021
Thu, 7/22 11:31AM
26:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, floyd, augustana, exodus, catholic charities, place, whatnot, augsburg, george,
receive, put, voices, commons, life, stimulus, homeless, stay, caddy, frostbite
SPEAKERS
Grant Tyus Sr, Isaac Tadé, Robert Nammar
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for the Augsburg University
Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé. I'm a student intern with Augsburg
Central Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
R
Robert Nammar 00:16
Robert Nammar
G
Grant Tyus Sr 00:19
Grant Tyus Senior
I
Isaac Tadé 00:21
Thank you. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed, and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, that will be made
available to the public.
Grant Tyus Sr 00:32
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 00:32
Yes,
R
Robert Nammar 00:33
yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:33
Okay, thank you. All right, so can you tell me more about how you got involved. Oh,
excuse me, I'm jumping ahead of myself. Can you tell me where you grew up and who you
call family?
R
Robert Nammar 00:45
Grew up. This is Robert Nammar, I grew up in Indiana. East Chicago. Say what?
I
Isaac Tadé 00:56
Who you called family.
R
Robert Nammar 00:58
My family. Family.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:03
Do you have, do you have siblings?
R
Robert Nammar 01:06
Yeah, I got two sisters and a brother.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:11
Okay,
R
Robert Nammar 01:12
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Just lost one, so.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:14
I'm sorry.
R
Robert Nammar 01:15
Yeah, oldest.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:17
Do you have any kids?
R
Robert Nammar 01:19
no kids
I
Isaac Tadé 01:20
no kids.
R
Robert Nammar 01:20
Yeah, okay. Thank you.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 01:24
My name is Grant Yyus, born and raised in South Minneapolis area, went to school all the
way up to high school, where I attended on Lake Taylor High School and my sister's
husband was in the Navy, so I was in Northrop, Virginia. For people I consider my family,
don't have to be blood related just those that I have been loyal to and show loyalty to me.
I
Isaac Tadé 01:48
Beautiful. Um, so can you tell me about how you got involved with Street Voices of
Change?
Robert Nammar 01:58
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R
Robert Nammar 01:58
I was homeless for a while, so I kind of followed everybody from where to go and stuff.
Tried to fight and figure it out, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:09
It was word of mouth?
R
Robert Nammar 02:10
Yeah, word of mouth. I would follow, and follow people, and it became a thing. They said
they get a meeting. So I've attended the meeting, and it's all good.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:27
And you've been here ever since. How many years have you been?
R
Robert Nammar 02:30
About 10 years,
I
Isaac Tadé 02:32
okay wow. Awesome!
G
Grant Tyus Sr 02:36
My name's Tyus. I've been here coming to these meetings for about a year now. There's a
brother, Stefan, I used to see him on downtown a lot. I used to be at Catholic Charities
Exodus apartments in Augustana, where your school is that, that's where I had received
my frostbite, my dad used to be at Augustana nursing home place for people so. Stefan
let me know about this meeting, I got two kids to my son's name is Stefan, their middle
names. I just been coming in since then.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:09
That's a blood you're talking about.
Grant Tyus Sr 03:10
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 03:10
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:11
Wow. Okay, um, I'm gonna ask you about COVID-19. So what would you say life was like
before the pandemic, and what's different for you now because of the pandemic.
R
Robert Nammar 03:23
Yeah, a lot of places were open, you know you can get to stuff and then the pandemic
came, then all sudden closing down. Trying to figure out where to go you know. That's
what happened.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:40
That was a difficult time.
R
Robert Nammar 03:41
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:45
So would you say at this point, things have opened up more, and there are more services
for folks who are homeless.
R
Robert Nammar 03:52
Yeah. Yeah, okay.
I
Isaac Tadé 03:54
But during the pandemic is mostly closed?
R
Robert Nammar 03:57
Yeah. Okay. Yeah.
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 04:16
During the whole, before the epidemic, I don't know. I recieved frostbite like in December
2019, and from the result of that, I end up at the Exodus apartments that's part of the
Catholic Charities, but like I said, I understand that Augustana was bought out by Catholic
Charities, that's where my father used to be at. Before the epidemic I used to umm, I don't
know, I was more involved and things but I didn't have an amputation of half of my foot
and almost all my toes on the other foot. You know, but I'd met George Floyd too, when I
was released from Exodus for like nine days, January 29, 2020. Or no, was it not February?
I don't know what day it was, but I was released for like 10 days or a week a little bit over a
week and he used to smoke his little K2, so I introduced him to CBD so it's a small world
because the place that he got killed that he lost his life in the same place in 1999, when I
got taken out the gang from, out of the gang. I was shot up there. So.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:30
Wow, so what, what was, where were you living during the the pandemic, what was that
like for you?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 05:39
During the pandemic, I was on right there at Catholic Charities Exodus apartments that's
right downtown in Minneapolis.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:46
Okay. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 05:47
It was chaotic because there's a lot of different things going on people dealing with their
frustrations and whatnot. The best way they knew how I guess you know I have family
members, that's part of George Floyd Memorial. Guapa, my older cousin and Reginald
Ferguson, down there, they're trying to do something different. There's not a lot of
resources as far as people on to relieve their pain and housing and different stuff that's
been destroyed, but there's not doing that in North none of the properties and stuff so. It's
just a lot of things going on to that's like the ripple effect, it's a flame that keeps going.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:25
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Wow. Okay, thank you. Um, so you would say that some of those things that occurred
during the pandemic, lack of resources are still happening now?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 06:36
Absolutely.
I
Isaac Tadé 06:37
Yeah. So you haven't seen it getting much better?
G
Grant Tyus Sr 06:40
No because a lot of people that are preyed upon are the first people. It's not an epidemic
or could it be not you have to talk to them people personally or just emotionally scarred
about on different things that we live in every day, you know, and these are resources that
are available. I don't think they've been dispersed enough because a lot of places are
desimate, they're empty or whatnot, and then there's people that can utilize that space as
you know and they've said, you know, it's gonna be even more so people that's gonna be
homeless, you know, they always got to increase because people usually living paycheck
to paycheck, you know, if they aint got their own career got some type of way to make
funding and, you know, in all these empty places can be utilized, you know, whether it's
GRH where it's 934 936 a month where the government is paying or caddy program which
I've been in since December where I've been preyed upon more than anybody I know and
I'm the one that put them together. But it's just all these empty places I and all these
people out here, that's all suffering and they shouldn't have to.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:49
So, tell me what a caddy program is
G
Grant Tyus Sr 07:52
Caddy waiver program is for a lot of people have vulnerabilities like me, whether it's
mental or physical which I have both. And based on your like income they'll help you with
housing just like the GRH program I was at a Catholic Charities.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:05
Okay, okay, and you're saying that there just needs to be more of those types of programs
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 08:09
Absolutely because there's all kinds of places that are landlords that might just be
struggling with their properties where they can utilize these type of programs I had a
property paid off.
I
Isaac Tadé 08:20
Yeah. Um. The next question is about your outlook on life. How has your outlook on life
changed because of the pandemic.
R
Robert Nammar 08:37
I'm down on rent. I rent. And I'm starting to get, you know what to call it, I tried to get my
payment. Direct, what you call it
I
Isaac Tadé 08:53
direct payment,
R
Robert Nammar 08:54
no, or that stimulus. Yeah, that 12 houndred dollars. I get the other stuff, they mailed it to
me. They've mailed, and I got that. 12 houndred, boom! Come up, they issued it to an
account. And I don't know what account. And they said they sent a card I don't see no
card. So I got to go through that, things find it to find money. So that's what I've been
going through.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:28
Has it changed the way that you see life.
R
Robert Nammar 09:32
life. See, like, I can't get nowhere. Because the dang pandemic. Yeah, I can't move, I can't
do nothing, You know,
Isaac Tadé 09:47
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I
Isaac Tadé 09:47
and so that that's you're saying that's directly because of the pandemic?
R
Robert Nammar 09:51
Yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 09:53
Right. With the struggle that you just had trying to get your stimulus check.
R
Robert Nammar 09:56
Yeah, yeah, bought me a TV, you know, instead of paying rent, but uh, I'm not inspecting
that, I mean I'm expecting, I'm expecting the pandemic, sort of money for that
I
Isaac Tadé 10:09
the stimulus check
R
Robert Nammar 10:14
Yeah. So how would you say that, Oh, I think things probably for me like, when I'm staying.
I'm staying next Exodus apartments for Catholic Charities apartments since December, 18,
2019 all the way to December the first 2020 where moved in to Open Hearts, LLC 44th and
Park, I was receiving on level three and four care, Exodus apartments, and after I had this
assessment for the caddy program I was told I was supposed to still be receiving the least
equal amount of care or higher care since I moved into this open heart place but I've
been, I haven't received nothing at all, you know I've been fending, to fend for myself had
to go to food shelves and different things had to put a camera in my room because
people going in and out of my room violating my space, you know, and I don't see all
people as the same, but I am a victim of sexual assault by a cop in 2009 but I put my ex to
school for law enforcement. Because I believe in doing the right thing, you know, and, but
what the epidemic going on, is like a lot of people take advantage of your vulnerability
see as as a way to prey upon you instead of a way to help you, you know, but I take that
as far as I do, I try to do the opposite of what, what I get, you know saying if I don't like to
be hit I don't hit I never discipline my kids that were never so I like to be out there helping
others with the same situation I'll probably get the opposite up.
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I
Isaac Tadé 11:48
Wow. Wow. So it sounds like you're extremely resilient. For all of the things that you too
have have been through through the pandemic, and you know you're still putting your
best foot forward,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 12:01
or half a foot!
I
Isaac Tadé 12:05
Right! Yes sir, yes sir. So, What would you say has brought you hope through this time what
what lifts you up, what keeps you going?
R
Robert Nammar 12:19
These meetings that, I mean, going to the streets. The streets, what's the go,
I
Isaac Tadé 12:28
Street voices.
R
Robert Nammar 12:29
It's streeth voice, yeah, yeah, you know, at least we can get some tokens. That's it. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 12:41
What keeps me going is my faith formost, you know. Oh, my kids. I'm supposed to be in a
wheelchair, I only used to walker or when it's absolutely necessary because I wanted them
never had to see me as crippled as I am or whatnot, you know. And as far as helping
others, I'd rather be able to help somebody else even though I don't receive help without
looking for anything in return, you know, and just, just, just realize that life's about. You got
free will, you got a choice of whatever you do, when you wake up in the morning, you
know, even if the person had a gun to my head I never got backed off from doing the right
thing and not being there for my kids. I just realized that I do go out at all, you know, this is
just my personal fulfillment in it, God has always made a way, you know, so I try to do the
best by him I possibly can and, and just keep faith and that and that alone.
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I
Isaac Tadé 13:37
Yeah, grateful, grateful. So in the summer 2020 the movement against racism had
Minneapolis in the epicenter, with the George Floyd murder. Um, can you describe your
experience living in Minneapolis, St Paul area during that time, what was that like for you,
R
Robert Nammar 14:00
The pandemic was a theme. So, you keep, had to abide by the rules, you know, you go
through the motions. But a lot of stuff, closed down. And they came in, you cant even get
nothing, you know. And now, they open back up. Some now they open, we are trying to
get they're trying to figure out what's going on here, you know? that's it.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 14:35
Yeah. Like I said I'll shut up again. Back in 99, right down 38th and Chicago. That's where
George Floyd got killed, I was born and raised there, you know? And just with everything
going on when things are going on. Usually I'll find stuff on Facebook you know and face
all day as your face I buy the watch unit on the book, you know, my 10 year old daughter
had to tell me that. So I usually, I can see the pain in people's eyes or motions that go on
through by sometimes it just bringing up old wounds but sometimes people are taking
advantage of the same situation and becoming destroyed in this city or state that was
born and raised in and that aint right. If you don't like pain, you shouldn't do painful things
that are inflicted on others. In a lot of people like he was saying they'll work their whole life
to earn a way or make a way and a lot of these just scored some things that never to be
replaced. Just like the healing process. Once you lose something you can't put no bandaid
on it you know what I'm saying.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:42
You can't bring back human life.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 15:43
No, absolutely not. I lost my mom and my sister, my mom and I was nine and my sister
when I was 17 So
R
Robert Nammar 15:51
I lost my dad in 88, and my mom and 96.
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I
Isaac Tadé 16:00
Wow, thank you for sharing. And you said you've a new George Floyd personal.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 16:04
Yeah, I just saw him, he used to smoke some of that deuce, I smoke that k2 stuff and I was
thinking I was making crazy, mad put GPS on my phone I stay right across the street, I'm
late, and I couldn't find my house and now I stay right across the street. But I have some
CBD I told him you know, why don't you try some of this, we were always making fun, I had
my feet then , but they were some stinky little things. To clean the shower whenever it is
CBD. So I got to meet him personally. Even though I was even not even supposed to have
left Exodus, I had two quarter or two statements from the doctor saying I wasn't supposed
to be left in the cold, or whatever. So that's why when the Bill of Rights came to Street
Voices of Change like, think it's rule 23 or 24, I wrote down that part. That a person should
never had to leave this place not a shelter but we look at a place, a person can call home,
you know, she never have to be thrown out in streets. When the world is for everybody,
you know, a person should be comfortable wherever that they're not preyed upon. Yeah.
R
Robert Nammar 17:13
like, like you get this. Like, what is this,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:19
yeah, an interview
R
Robert Nammar 17:20
Interview yeah you know, that's cool. I'm glad you give voice and be heard,
I
Isaac Tadé 17:29
Well you, you people are the people who have lived these experiences, and and I've lived
them so wholeheartedly, right, and so a part of this project is to amplify what you have to
say, because we think that's so important. So thank you for being here. Thanks again. Um,
and then so is what is there. Excuse me. Is there anything else that you want people to
know or remember 30 years from now, about your experience, or other people's
experiences being homeless during this period of time.
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G
Grant Tyus Sr 18:11
I've been like, with Katie, I've been in a steady group for the encampment. I'll be in a lot of
different places where people don't have nothing but they're making the best out of what
they got, you know. If we was all together, you know like in like the ideal world, it was you
know, instead of looking at division or whatnot, and we can satisfy everybody about
humanity, you know, not nothing based on your religion, lack of religion, color, nothing like
that. If it's about humanity, the world would be a better place you know , you only got one
life to live now so and it's a difference between living in that system.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:46
So you'd say, what people got to take away from this situation from this moment of time is
to live in unity and not be so divided, I think a lot of times in this society we find reasons to
be against each other.
R
Robert Nammar 19:05
Something about black folks, you know, get together and talk to us all,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:10
There's only one race, the human race
R
Robert Nammar 19:12
yes
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:12
And so people gotta stop putting ourselves in the box.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:17
Celebrate our differences,
R
Robert Nammar 19:18
yeah,
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I
Isaac Tadé 19:20
Yeah, that's that's beautiful. Um, let me see here. If you could ask to work on something if
you could ask people to work on something, or to get involved in an issue, what would
that be, is there something that people hearing this could help with, where do you think
people like me should be more involved?
R
Robert Nammar 19:44
With this, with the streets, you know, the Street Voices. so you can hear what's going on.
Hey, it's rough out there,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 19:58
That different individuals like us that's out there disabled. Um, probably be them eyes and
ears that most to people aren't able to experience, you know, be able to go different
places but most people have a time limit where they're not able to you know? Even at the
George Floyd, those people that I grew up with their parents or whatnot their kids out
there homeless and then living in places where they fit for animals to live in and nowadays
resources available, what, how is the pain being, not, not consumed, you know, if it's just
like on fire being put on it, you know, or gasoline because nothing being done that like
being overlooked.
R
Robert Nammar 20:39
I was going with the lady one time, she had kids and stuff. Police killed her son over north,
remember that? Tycel Nelson.
I
Isaac Tadé 20:53
What was the name again?
R
Robert Nammar 20:54
Tycel Nelson, he's the first one to get. I mean, that got killed by the police. And then
George Floyd, you know, everybody, you know, all that's happening in the city, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:10
So, um, some of the issues that it sounds like you're bringing up is like violence that we
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need to be aware of and then just more people, more people being aware of
homelessness. Thank you. Um, just a few more questions about health. So what would you
say that you need to be healthy?
R
Robert Nammar 21:35
I got, I got health. I'm healthy, because I get two, I get a VA, and I got regular insurance.
Yeah they keep me going though. And I thank God for that.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 22:04
If I had a choice, I would have a different service provider way at place the place I live,
you know, because all they do is run the service. And that definitely ain't doing anything,
that they're supposed to whatever or claim to do. Other than that, probably for a while,
it's like a home project anyone is supposed to have when they gone to zero.
R
Robert Nammar 22:30
All right. Sixty years old so man, I've been through a lot.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:37
Oh yeah, I'm sure,
R
Robert Nammar 22:40
When I was in the army, they did, they sabotaged me, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:46
What do you mean by that
R
Robert Nammar 22:48
I mean, you know, the dude they come, he came to the... I had a stroke so...
I
Isaac Tadé 22:59
Oh, okay.
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R
Robert Nammar 23:00
We came to the, the guard shack and there was a guard right? This guy he started some
stuff with me and, you know, and I almost went into it right with him. And I quit. Then I
went to the, to the barraks. And, you know, I went AWOL. They had me go, going AWOL
and stuff, dude considered... He threatened me, you know,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 23:34
You done left base and just went to the barraks?
R
Robert Nammar 23:37
I left base. I left, left, went home, came home, you know, that was down in Texas. Yeah, I
went home and then came back, they put me out. And then I've been going through shit
ever since.
I
Isaac Tadé 23:53
Right. And that's why having access to these medical centers is important for you. Yeah,
to stay healthy. Yeah, yeah. Um, next question is have you met with the nurses at Central
Health Commons. And then, do you have feedback for them.
R
Robert Nammar 24:12
Yes, they good, they good people. I see. I see they come in. Soak your feet and everything,
give you what want you know, it's good. Yeah.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 24:21
I want my feet soaked.
R
Robert Nammar 24:23
Yeah, I had a bad toe, toenails kept on going over, you know. They clipped that sucker for
me and everything.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:34
Right, they fixed you up.
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R
Robert Nammar 24:35
Yeah, I got diabetes so...
G
Grant Tyus Sr 24:39
this is done right here?
R
Robert Nammar 24:40
Yeah, well,
I
Isaac Tadé 24:41
Yeah, yeah right around the corner. Right. Yeah. Okay, you'll have to pull up on Monday.
Now you know, now you know, that's great. Um, okay, so then I guess the next question is
do you have any feedback for like health commons, is there anything that we can do
better? Is there anything missing?
R
Robert Nammar 25:09
Nothing I see.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:11
Okay, so that's on Mondays?
I
Isaac Tadé 25:13
Yeah Mondays and Thursdays.
R
Robert Nammar 25:14
Yeah, Mondays and Thursday.
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:16
Yeah, see that's that one she was talking about
Robert Nammar 25:20
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R
Robert Nammar 25:20
my feet is important. Yeah, I have to get them checked and make sure there aint soars.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:31
Okay, so no feedback right now.
R
Robert Nammar 25:34
Nope.
I
Isaac Tadé 25:34
Okay. And then we're just about to be done, but is there anything else that you'd like to
say before we finish up.
R
Robert Nammar 25:41
I thank God because you're around, you know, peoples, getting to know people,
G
Grant Tyus Sr 25:47
Yeah I appreaciate y'all young individuals doing what you need to in life, for real.
R
Robert Nammar 25:52
Get some, get some. I mean help, you know, we need help. You could be like my son in the
studio, rapping or something. At least you're doing something for the cause.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:06
Well, we're trying to thank you, and it wouldn't be possible without your voices, and so on
behalf of Augsburg Health Commons, you know, we just really appreciate it and
appreciate you sharing what you have to offer because your experience is so valuable,
R
Robert Nammar 26:22
because I belong to a dignity center. They come over there they volunteered and and
stuff, you know, people from Augustana, okay. Yeah.
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I
Isaac Tadé 26:33
Yeah, and you appreciate it.
R
Robert Nammar 26:35
Yeah, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:36
Well, it's a beautiful thing to give and receive right Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's about it
for today. This concludes our interview. Thank you so much again for taking the time and
for sharing your stories and insights with me. I appreciate it. Thank you.
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Show less
Darrell Warren 2021
Thu, 7/29 11:34AM
32:35
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, life, feel, hope, hear, voices, community, gave, street, health, floyd, situation, call,
officers, law enforcement, interacting, interview, shelter, fighting
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Darrell
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02... Show more
Darrell Warren 2021
Thu, 7/29 11:34AM
32:35
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, pandemic, life, feel, hope, hear, voices, community, gave, street, health, floyd, situation, call,
officers, law enforcement, interacting, interview, shelter, fighting
SPEAKERS
Isaac Tadé, Darrell
I
Isaac Tadé 00:02
Hello and thank you for joining us today for the oral history project for the Augsburg
University Central Health Commons. My name is Isaac Tadé, I'm a student intern with
Augsburg Central Health Commons, could you please introduce yourself for the recording.
D
Darrell 00:17
His name is Darrell Warren,
I
Isaac Tadé 00:20
that, yes, yeah. No, go ahead. I cut you up,
D
Darrell 00:25
just participating in this interview here process. So you guys can get a better perception of
what we experienced of being homeless is
I
Isaac Tadé 00:37
excellent, thank you. And just before we continue, I would like to just confirm that you
consent to being interviewed, and that the interview can be stored at Augsburg University
Darrell Warren 2021
Page 1 of 16
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available to the public.
D
Darrell 00:50
Yes, I agree with that.
I
Isaac Tadé 00:52
Okay, thank you. So, getting right into it. Can you tell me about where you grew up and
who you call family?
D
Darrell 00:59
Yeah, I grew up in Chicago, Illinois. And I left there at 17 with the Job Corps and the people
are called families is my siblings, which are deceased, my both parents, grandparents,
older brother and my youngest sister died of cancer. My mom died of breast cancer. My
grandmother died of cancer. My dad had a heart attack and my older brother had a
similar heart attack. And so I just had one sibling left, which is a twin. He's live in Rock
Island. And so people are called family on the streets and being homeless gets you in
different groups that I come across or become apart that's like Street Voices, really have
been supportive and helpful in my needs so that to me is family, those who can identify
your situation and we, you know, kinda interact with each other, they have become my
family and not necessarily bloods. They're my family only through DNA and blood, but,
you know, as far as the situations that I go in, they're not really supportive. You know, or
even been supportive of my situations and my needs, more to my homeless situations and
they have their own lives.
I
Isaac Tadé 02:34
Right, well and you have your dog.
D
Darrell 02:36
Oh yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 02:37
you got your dog here today
Darrell Warren 2021
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D
Darrell 02:39
Xena, that's my best friend
I
Isaac Tadé 02:40
Xena right there. Yeah, yes sir, yes sir. Okay, thank you. Um, could you tell me more about
how you got involved with Street Voices of Change.
D
Darrell 02:53
Yes I was, actually I was in fear for fear of my life in Hibbing, Minnesota, St. Louis County,
falsely arrested by law enforcement. And then I was one being assaulted, and they
trumped up all these charges on me of fleeing and obstruction and of that nature, and
which is all false and, you know, putting these guns on me so I've been fighting this battle
by myself for probably a whole year now. And, and I had to leave. I had to give up my
place, due to the fact that I was scared to live in that town, you know, cause they kept
harassing me and so I just packed up one bag and left my left my apartment. Been living
in Minnesota then I came to Minneapolis and I've heard of George Floyd and I had seen all
the events happening on TV, with law enforcement, with, you know with, uh with the
shootings. And I came to Minneapolis, Minnesota, you know, to get some help or, you
know, to find a lawyer, civil rights lawyer groups that have a support system, and Steet
Voices was the one that was, I met this guy named Earl he told me about it and and
invited me to a meeting, and I said I'd come by tomorrow morning about Street Voices
and I sat in the meeting and I like what they stood for. So, you know, I feel like I want to be
more of a part of their meetings and things that they do so I want be more involved.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:39
So you've been coming here for about a year now?
D
Darrell 04:41
No actually only I've only been in Minneapolis for a month and a half.
I
Isaac Tadé 04:49
Oh wow, okay,
Darrell 04:50
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D
Darrell 04:50
I'm been fighting my legal,
I
Isaac Tadé 04:52
okay that's been for a year.
D
Darrell 04:54
False, being falsely arrested
I
Isaac Tadé 04:56
right
D
Darrell 04:57
So, Steet Voices, this is probably my second, second meeting. Okay, Street Voices, on
coming.
I
Isaac Tadé 05:10
Well we're glad you keep coming back. Yeah. And I'm sorry about your false accusation,
that's, that's a terrible experience. Um, you talked about this a little bit already, but what
did life look like for you before the pandemic, and what is different for you now because of
COVID-19?
D
Darrell 05:33
I think life was a before the COVID, it was actually going well you know I think what, what,
for me what turned around, wasn't this so much of a COVID thing, it was a president that
we had. Donald Trump. And this was like my whole community changed. You know when
he became president and people just changed, you know, as they started seeing, you
know, color, you know, and I no longer felt no part of the community anymore, you know
I
Isaac Tadé 06:08
and is this, was this in Chicago or was this in...
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D
Darrell 06:12
Hibbing. Hibbing Minnesota, St. Louis County. And it just took a drastic change, you know,
in different groups coming up there and different people from different places of states
and recruiting people for these racial, for their racial hate groups and people just started
changing so I just started not feel like I didn't fit anymore. I'm still trying to have hope, you
know, they're like oh, is this really happening. You know, I would go into stores people
would call the police just for no reason or saying my service animal is not welcome and
I'm constantly being harassed by the police only get behind my car, and I'm like "hey you
know me and they have been in this community for awhile" you know just threw guns on
me and also getting it was getting really hectic, so I had to start being afraid, you know,
fleeing actually, fearing for my life.
I
Isaac Tadé 07:10
So all of those things those are social, and even some like political pressures that were
taking a toll on you, even before all of you know, the pandemic and all of the health
related things like that. How would you say, did, did COVID scare you at all? You know
maybe you're more afraid of, you know the police in Hibbing than COVID. You maybe not
thinking about a virus, that you can't see, you're probably thinking about a gun and an
officer that you can see.
D
Darrell 07:41
Yes, that's exactly how it was. That was the issue, and due to the COVID pandemic, it was
just like, you know, it was a ghost town and if you out at night with a certain time. It was
times where I was, you know, I didn't want to be out at even night to go to the store, it
might start to get dark, to go to the store because it was like, you know, I felt like I was
open season for like be more attacked. Because I did experience to where they had set up
like a curfew and I remember the one officers that come, you know, coming over and I
knew them. They knew me and I knew them, and I'm just sitting there, knowing this still in
Hibbing and I'm sitting there. On my laptop and, you know, they just came to sit there by
me, one standing up in there looking up, never said anything so then I'm like "wow". So at
this time, this is the beginning of the COVID. And so, and he asks, so then I asked him like
"hey, you know, what's going on?" "Oh Nothing we just sitting here." And I made a
statement about George Floyd and I was like, could they initiate a conversation or
anything so I just initiated a conversation but man it was really, right after the killing them
of George Floyd. And I was like "Wow man it's really sad what happened to George Floyd
man I mean, that was some coward stuff to have someone in handcuffs and then, you
know..
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I
Isaac Tadé 09:14
Choked him to death
D
Darrell 09:15
and take the choke them out, take his life. I was like, "man if I was him, I would have been
fighting back" so I had made a comment like that, they are officers. And, and I was afraid
too that they were about to engage, engage, engage me in that way. And they kept
looking around to see if anybody was around. And this drone appeared over us and I'm
like, "Oh wow, I hope that drone has a camera on it" and in someone had yelled out. We
just had a protest up there with, with the police shootings and stuff. And so when I looked
at the drone I was like, "I hope he has a camera on it" you know when somebody yelled
out, "leave him alone." You know I never seen a person or yelled out, and so I just told the
office I'm like "well, I know man is gonna be a curfew at nine o'clock and I'm just finishing
up on my laptop here but is there anything I can do for y'all?" They didn't say nothing. I
guess "I have nothing to talk to you about," you know, he made a statement like "Hey
where was you at such and such time?" I'm like, "what do you mean where was I, like you
seen me at the protests. You know, and I spoke to you. I was really afraid of my life if
anything. And they had finally walked off you know when they seen someone stand out on
the porch. I just thought there's gonna be enough statistical of violence from the police.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:02
That's terrifying. You know as a black man we feel like it could happen to any one of us at
any time.
D
Darrell 11:08
Yes, anytime,
I
Isaac Tadé 11:11
and to be in that position. I can tell you know that was incredibly, well, fearful.
D
Darrell 11:24
Yeah, they're very terrifying. And then I, you know, I try to see, you know, you know them,
not as a whole, as, as always, like, you know what's been using pattern behind a badge,
you know to attack people. And because I also had that experience too. My son, he was
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going to school for law enforcement.
I
Isaac Tadé 11:52
That's right,
D
Darrell 11:52
and he was the only African American in his class so when he used to do to the ride
alongs. And I think this was before Trump became president. We used to do ride alongs. I
know how families would feel when, you know, their husband or brother or wives out there
or some in the field, you know, to serve and protect, right, you know, now he's like oh wow.
You know when I hear sirens or something I call him and I hope he be alright. You know,
and I know that there are some good, you know, officers on force as well you know. There
were time I had to call them, call law enforcement. you know, situations and so I just look
at you know, not the whole force has being, you know, being attacked, but the ones who
can enforce and not abide by the rules. Think they're above the law. Them the ones I have
issues with.
I
Isaac Tadé 12:50
Of course, you know, we trust certain people to enforce the law and we don't expect that
they break it themselves, right, and that they, they also abide by the rules that normal
civilians like you and me have to abide by. Right. So, I guess, first of all thank you for
sharing that, and thank you for sharing your personal experience, um, in what way has the
pandemic shaped your outlook on life. Has it changed how you see things?
D
Darrell 13:23
Yeah. I don't know, the pandemic is like, everybody's desensitized you know. First it was no
interacting, you know, everything is done about monitor, right, you know, virtually,
virtually. And then two and also, I was being taken advantage of too. Like back when I was
going to court, you know, had a bad Zoom audio and a lot of my rights was being
violated. You know where if I do try to speak to defend myself in the courtroom with the
judge, and they would, they would mute me. You know, and then I call him and then ask
the prosecutor, what he want to get for the same thing I was falsely charged for it, you
know. And I would get muted. And, or they would just threaten me with contempt. You
know and they take, I feel I've been taken advantage of doing that type of situation as far
as the pandemic, that we had happening by zoom. Or there were times where I had to
write a motion for a complaint on the judge to have her be removed from off the case file,
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because she was violating my due process rights. Would not allow me to be heard. They
just really take advantage over to take a trial, and where I didn't even have, where the
prosecuter have any arrangement or submitted any evidence. You know I wasn't even
being in heard, it was just like "hey you're a number, you know, hey, well you'll have no
rights and you'd be muted, what you say don't matter." And that's the way I was taking
with the pandemic. And then what was scaring me as well, just what I was hearing about,
when I see that people with dying from this from this from this virus. You know and so a lot
of elderly people, family members down in the South, that, you know, have lost in life. My
older aunties and stuff like this. It was kind of scary that part of the generation now was
just gone.
I
Isaac Tadé 15:48
Was there anything that gave you hope through the last year. What made you keep, Keep
going. You had so much going on, you had police harassment. You had your case that
you're trying to fight for in court, the pandemic going on, you know, of course, a national
conversation or or even just, I don't know turmoil over, over, race, you know what, what
brought you hope what kept you moving forward through all that time?
D
Darrell 16:21
What was keeping me moving forward? I was looking for a support system and, you know,
Street Voices was, you know, it gave me hope or when I see the different groups as what's
out there. You know, Street Voices cause they know what they stood for. And not just
stood for, what they was practicing what they was fighting for, and then see. Also what
gives me hope is when I go down Nicolette just seeing, you know, city putting on you
know, different organization, putting out definitely events down on, downtown town bring
back unity. Entertainment, you know, music appearrances, started back interacting It's not
all virtual with Zoom anymore.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:10
Right. right,
D
Darrell 17:13
And, you know, we actually can say hi you know and smile you know and it's not behind
some screen and you know you've been blowing off you know what I'm saying you can
even go to, you know, kids can have no connection with a human being. That felt really
weird, odd and lonely. And you know, to actually be or, you know, just know seeing, you
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know once things started opening up and and see people interacting, that's what gave me
gave me and giving me hope
I
Isaac Tadé 17:47
that's helpful
D
Darrell 17:48
to know that, no matter what race, color, creed, you know, I've seen people from all walks
of life and people actually existing, you know, and it's peaceful.
I
Isaac Tadé 17:58
Yes sir
D
Darrell 17:59
unity, started to develop. And Street Voices. Again you know to come here, you know, it
helped me again. A situation to wasting you know, when my car was illegally towed, I just
got a job. I went into Street Voices, you know, was working at a place of hotel told me that
they was hiring, I just started work Friday. Then on Saturday evening, I go and I'm living in
the shelter now and I go Saturday evening. Go back to the shelter and I get off work and
now my car towed, you know, and then that was towed illegally by traffic controls. So, like,
one thing out of another and their price is outrageous. Yeah, and my whole life is in my
car, my vehicle.
I
Isaac Tadé 18:53
Have you gotten the vehicle back or it's still in there?
D
Darrell 18:55
Oh, it's still in there, been in there since Saturday but, you know, you know, the
organization that helped me out with some funding to to get it out today, which is a
blessing because I don't know how to do it I have my whole life in there. Clothes,
paperwork, medical papers, everything, basically living out my car.
Isaac Tadé 19:22
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I
Isaac Tadé 19:22
Right, right. Wow. So you're thankful to Street Voices for helping you get the funds to
hopefully get that vehicle out.
D
Darrell 19:30
Yes, very grateful.
I
Isaac Tadé 19:32
Yeah, yeah. Wow, thank you for sharing that. And I'm so glad that this place has brought
you some hope comfort, support, you know, during this time and. The next question is, is
there anything else that you want people to remember 30 years from now, about your
experience with homelessness during this period. What should people take away, what
should they remember?
D
Darrell 20:03
Remember, the unity, and that there is hope and love in in numbers. You know? And that
no person is alone. You know, I thought I was alone, you know, in the sense of family and
community, feeling belonging, not judged by my race, color, creed or my gender, you
know, which is a beautiful feeling like to be myself and not have to be ashame to what is
going on in my life. You know and you know I could feel free to kind of open up about my
about my experience. where as before I wasn't because I felt, you know, the times I was
confined to someone that I didn't know. Suddenly speaking and it was being used against
me. You know, even I guess some shelters, with staff, you know, they will use it against me
and they don't think nothing of it. The least, little mistake they put you up out of, out of
shelter. You're late, or anything or, you know, you know this, and then just add more stress
because then I'm back, and then I got to sleep outside. You know, just outside of the park
or something so I'm just thankful for what gives me hope to see churches come together
where you know they allow us to sleep in the churches or give us blankets coffee, you
know, water, you know, so yeah that's the community that brought me hope even if I was
living on the streets, that was still, you know, helping people, was actually willing to help
and be a part of that,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:46
you want to people to remember that there was unity during this time.
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D
Darrell 21:51
Yeah,
I
Isaac Tadé 21:51
even though it seems like there's so much division.
D
Darrell 21:54
Yes, yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 21:56
Wow. And your personal story speaks to that
D
Darrell 21:59
yeah.
I
Isaac Tadé 22:01
Goodness gracious. Thank you. Um, okay, if you could ask people to work on something or
get involved on an issue, what would that be? Is there something that people hearing this
could help with? What issue should we be focusing on right now?
D
Darrell 22:21
The issue should be focused in on that. You know it's not that hard to smile or say hi to
someone. I remember I was downtown and I've seen Minneapolis Police standing there,
standing by their car, mean buggin', got their uniforms on you know. They have an
influence in their community but they, you know that's trusted they have to earn back and
I asked an officer like, "man, it don't cost you nothing to smile, you know, just to say wave,
you know to say hi, you know you're standing out by your car downtown in downtown
area," you know, but yet not greeting people. But I'm like, "hey, what if a kid come by, you
know and you're being mean to one of this childs. How would that child feel? you know, so
and I talked to a number of offices and sargents and so now I'm starting to see them
working doing the old school. They walk in the downtown area now and they're waving
and their smiling. That made me feel good to see
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I
Isaac Tadé 23:33
comfortable!
D
Darrell 23:33
if they feel comfortable to see it, they actually took a little time to listen and doing it. You
know because people are hurting and angry you know due to violence and, everything,
and loss of jobs, you know, so it's a hurting community as well as businesses you know so
we all got to exist, you know, and then people like myself have a mental illness you have
PTSD. And then, for people to be mindful of, you know before you judge or anything you
know you never know that person mental illness or what's going on in their life. Take time
out to just actually just know, view the whole situation with that person or to say
somethning kind, which is a beautiful feeling. Even I don't have much, but if I have
something someone need it, even if they don't need it. You know, I just go buy water, you
know, from Target and there's on the hot days, I just do some good for someone. And that
gets me out of myself my issues or problems to help someone else. You know with the
change, that made me happy at that moment in time, just to pass out waters, you know.
I
Isaac Tadé 24:48
Man. Going to need water's today it's hot.
D
Darrell 24:51
Yeah!
I
Isaac Tadé 24:53
End of July. Yeah I think that's what you're saying is, you know small acts of kindness, go a
long way. Yeah. I love that. I think everyone should incorporate that into their daily routine
and just, it doesn't cost anything that wear a smile, like you said, right. Well thank you for
sharing that. Um, so just a few more questions about general health. What would you say
that you need for health, as you define it. So, what do you need to be healthy?
D
Darrell 25:33
So I mean, first of all, what I need to be healthy is stability. Because if you have stability,
you can have a little healthy way of thinking. But we struggling, you know, from day to
day, if you're on the streets and homeless, some things stress you out so I find it a spiritual
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aspect, meaning. I have to get out of myself and I was service named Xena. She's been
very therapeutic for me.
I
Isaac Tadé 26:18
Yes
D
Darrell 26:19
you know, because I think without her being apart of my life, and she's five, I don't even
know if I'd be sitting here doing his interview or be in my right state of mind, because, I got
to constantly be responsible for her. You know food, water, shelter, you know, things like
things of that nature. I said I just got hired with employment but I mean. You know, coming
to like Street Voices you know some of the things they provide like blankets, you know,
meditate.
I
Isaac Tadé 27:02
yes,
D
Darrell 27:03
you know, so I incorporate those things when I'm going throughout my day once again. I
will go to the park, you know, just sit in and listen to the birds and sit around the water you
know, around nature. So it gave me that frame of mind, you know, where now it's like in
some shelters, you know they have more resources and where if you don't have health
care, if they found out I was eligible to receive some health loans, in order to get some
health care, you know, to be able to get, you know, my prescription medications, you
know. Check blood pressure, and stuff, you know, things of that nature. Which is,
awesome so I can be kinda monitor of those things. I'm not always doing it but you know, I
just keep going in today like "Oh, your blood pressure's high". I was wondering why I have
the headaches. Okay
I
Isaac Tadé 28:11
There it is.
D
Darrell 28:12
You know then that checklist hits, you know like, "Okay, I need to come get peace of
Darrell Warren 2021
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mind." And sometimes I don't like being around a lot of people when I'm in that state of
mind and in a dark period but
I
Isaac Tadé 28:30
I understand that,
D
Darrell 28:30
but you know, health care's is very important you know for me to see my medication for
me to eat healthy, you know, fruits and vegetables. And then, and then the community
has been very active in it, you know, you know what, coming around, you know, offering
you know best fruits, vegetables, food, you know, so that's another thing. It's been, man it's
been beautiful. I help anyone along, that they are continuing to help in the community,
you know, to try to have basic needs of food, you know, stay healthier clothing, shoes, you
know. Yeah. Street Voices is like, again it's not one of those organizations who come here
to get clothes or shoes, hot meal a breakfast you know in morning people in meditation
you know a way to start a day
I
Isaac Tadé 29:29
Oh Ellen with that meditation, I love it. I absolutely love it. Yeah. So sound like you said,
you need stability, and within stability, are things that give you stability are. Well, your dog
Xena, eating right, spending some time in nature, and then getting your proper like health
care needs, but, yeah. Okay, excellent. I just wanted to run that back, make sure make sure
I got it. Okay so then, have you met the nurses at Central? Have you met the nurses here?
D
Darrell 30:03
Oh yes, they just checked my blood pressure. They had to check because I felt a little
dizzy and I know they get like that, it might be hot and I'm just wanting to know where it's
at.
I
Isaac Tadé 30:14
Right. Okay, so you've met the nurses, And is there any feedback you have for them.
D
Darrell 30:21
Yes, man. For the nurses that are on frontline you know they they put their lives, you know,
Darrell Warren 2021
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they go out on a limb to still do what they do you know to to help people, I'm very grateful
for, for the nurses, you know that's even hearing in abroad you know to actually dealing
with all this in the beginning and still doing what they need to do to still serve the
homeless. Homeless people, even people that retired is coming out of retirement, nurses,
you know. To give their service and their professions, you know, and then their their advice
or suggestion, you know, we do need to see a doctor you know because we don't always
know without a professional, you know, to point that out, point out to us right.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:16
So you've had a good experience so far, it sounds like with the nurses here.
D
Darrell 31:19
Yes.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:20
Excellent, excellent. And then, do you have any feedback for, like, Health Commons,
Central in general? Is there anything that we're missing is there anything that we can do
better or improve on other services that we're lacking? Anything?
D
Darrell 31:37
Not, not, not that I know but I know for times that come, you know, my mental, physical,
spiritual needs, was, was has been met you.
I
Isaac Tadé 31:49
Excellent. That's what we want to hear. Amazing, thank you. Um, before we finish, is there
anything else you'd like to say before we're done today.
D
Darrell 31:59
I like to say, hey thanks for the interview and say, just continue to keep hope alive and you
know I was a little depressed when I come in, but I got joy, going out.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:18
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Good. Yes, good. I'm so happy to hear that, that makes my day. that makes my day. Well
that's it. This concludes our interview for today. Thank you so much for taking the time to
share your stories and insight with me.
D
Darrell 32:32
You're very welcome.
I
Isaac Tadé 32:33
Thank you so much.
Darrell Warren 2021
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Show less
Cecil 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
42:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
situation, people, person, pandemic, streets, feet, experiences, life, day, police, homeless,
social distancing, law enforcement, augsburg, homelessness, faith, worst, called, head, place
SPEAKERS
Cecil Scott, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen... Show more
Cecil 2021
Fri, 7/30 11:01AM
42:04
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
situation, people, person, pandemic, streets, feet, experiences, life, day, police, homeless,
social distancing, law enforcement, augsburg, homelessness, faith, worst, called, head, place
SPEAKERS
Cecil Scott, Kathleen Clark
Kathleen Clark 00:02
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project for street voices of change and
Augsburg Central Health Commons. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of
Nursing at Augsburg. Can you introduce yourself for the recording?
C
Cecil Scott 00:17
My name is Cecil Scott.
Kathleen Clark 00:19
Great. And before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and have the interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
C
Cecil Scott 00:30
Yeah.
Kathleen Clark 00:31
Cecil 2021
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Great. Thank you. So can you tell me where you grew up and who you called family?
C
Cecil Scott 00:38
I grew up in North Minneapolis. To the question of who I call family, I mean, I call my
family, family. My grandmother. She had 11 kids here. She had nine kids here two over in
Texas who they were taken from her and that's one of the reasons why she moved here to
Minnesota. So I have a pretty big family. Scotts, Neils, Joneses, Ingrams pretty pretty big
family here in Minneapolis.
Kathleen Clark 01:28
Great Well, can you tell me how you got involved with Street Voices of Change?
C
Cecil Scott 01:33
I got involved with Street Voices of Change in their first meeting. I was homeless. And
someone told me, "Hey they're giving these bus tokens and they're giving away some
some breakfast over at Central Lutheran Church. So let's go over there and check it out,
see what it's about." And upon attending that initial group, and when I found out what it
was about and what was getting started, I wanted to be a part of it and I just kept coming
back after that.
Kathleen Clark 02:17
So what was life like for you before the pandemic and what is different for you because of
it?
C
Cecil Scott 02:26
Well, life before the pandemic was definitely easier due to access of different things but
nothing has really changed. I've always been a person, I practice social distancing before
social distancing was a thing. I'm not a person who really likes to touch other people or be
touched by other people. So social distancing was something that was like cool with me
I'm not a germaphobe or anything like that. But there was something that I was easily
able to adapt to. The transportation in the situation it seemed like people were going to
the left, they were going a little bit crazy. Transportation, riding riding the city bus with
several different people who were experiencing the pandemic with me, some of them just
weren't able to, to maintain it and keep their composure so there was a lot of different
Cecil 2021
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things that were happening on the city buses. Like fighting, people getting upset with
people for not having a mask on sitting, too close to them, and different things like that.
So that in particular made me go out and reget my driver's license and get me a vehicle
just so I wouldn't be dealing with the aggression from other people. As far as my job, my
job never stopped. I've been working continuously through the pandemic. I work for a
company that is an essential company. We we do metal plating, and we do metal plating
for specific government agencies or entities that allowed us to stay open for the pandemic
because they needed their equipment that we were working on. So no, my employment
didn't stop. Then we got in to this, the George Floyd thing. And a lot of different businesses
were burned down. So with the pandemic, and that going on, it was hard to access a lot
of things like grocery stores and buying clothes and different things like that. I'm trying to
think if there's any other ways a pandemic has affected me. Because like I said, I'm pretty
much a homebody anyway. So, quaranting myself wasn't no real big issue, you know. I
gotta a little cat. She keeps me company. So I wasn't all the way alone. Plus I'm computer
savvy so I can communicate with people via internet or Facebook or whatnot. So I think
that's pretty much covers my pandemic stuff.
Kathleen Clark 06:06
So can you tell me a little bit about your experiences? Being either houseless, homeless
are marginally housed in the past?
C
Cecil Scott 06:16
What type of experiences would you like to hear? So yes, there's quite a bit of them. When
I first started out homeless, you know, it was somewhat of a choice. Me and my, my
girlfriend were breaking up. And I could either try to stay in that situation, which wouldn't
probably been healthy for me. Or I could go to the shelter, and just start trying to build
anew, which is what I did, and that turned out to be the best solution. And during that
time, in the beginning of that time, I was robbed. I believe I was stung with stun gun, I'm
not exactly sure what they actually hit me with to, to render me unconscious. But I got
robbed for my little homeless possessions. And they really scarred my face really bad.
And blood, a lot of people thought that I wouldn't heal correctly. I did. And thank God, I
did heal God, God had his hand in that situation as well. So that started making me
change my drive of what I wanted to do, I had already had a job. I was already working
40 hours a week. So it just, it just made me go harder. I was working for a temp agency.
And any place they asked me to go, I went, regardless of how far was a how early in the
morning, I had to get up. In some cases, I had to get up and catch a bus to a train and
then ride a bike. But whatever it was, whatever the requirement was, I did that. And during
one of these situations, I was going to a place called the Opportunity Center to eat
Cecil 2021
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breakfast before I got on my first bus and I was riding down Chicago avenue to go to their
seven o'clock meal. And on Chicago and Franklin, I witnessed a man being murdered.
Another man walked up behind him with his hoodie tied around his face and a gun in his
sleeve and shot him in the back of the head just 30 feet in front of me. That situation even
though I've seen death before that situation, really, really awakened me. Because I was
trapped in the streets. And I felt by you know, the streets almost killed me once with the
robbery. And now I'm witnessing a man getting shot in the back of his head. And so it kind
of told me that if I did not work harder or try harder to change my situation, the streets
were going to kill me. So I just went into overdrive and I started showing up at work two
hours earlier and leaving two hours later, which to my to to the owner of the business I
worked for. He just was liked "where did you get this work ethic from?" I got it from the
streets. He did not kind of understand it but, the streets motivated me to get out of the
streets and because I didn't I didn't want to die like that, you know? That's the amount of
motivation, every senses is stuck, just keep the streets from getting me. That was the
second part of that question, I think only.
Kathleen Clark 10:12
yeah, just be your experiences of being homeless or marginally housed or any of that,
which you've answered with some great stories, and also, why you decided to try to make
some changes, which I very much applaud. So, given all that you've been through, and
given the situation in the last 18 months, what gives you hope and strength?
C
Cecil Scott 10:47
Well I'm gonna have to say, my faith in God. In the beginning, it was a little difficult to
activate my faith and activating my faith, what I mean is, you have to believe what you're
actually praying for, and what you're expecting God to give to you. And not all the time
that is easy, you know, that started out for me being a very difficult thing to do, to trust
that it was going to happen, because so many times prayers hadn't worked. And I've just
realized that if I believe God is gonna fulfill these things for me, then it's gonna happen.
And I started doing that, and it's happened over and over, and over and over, and it's
happened so many times that I've become reliant on that. So when a situation comes up
now, where I know that I can't do it on my own, I know that it's gonna be a struggle, and
I'm gonna need help. My first go to is God, because it's been working, it's been working the
whole time, you know, helping me change my situation. And so that's, that's where I go, I
goes straight to God, "this is a lot for me, this I can't handle this by myself." And I trust that,
that is going to be all that I need to do, to give whatever I'm trying to accomplish done.
And thus far, that is what has happened. So that is what I'm doing. I'm continuing to trust
Cecil 2021
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God, and trust that things that I need will be placed in my life and the pathway will be
clear. It's been that way. And then just recently, I had an emergency surgery. And I had to
take a leave of absence from my employment. And during that time, all of these different
fundings, unemployment, and HMLA, all of these different places that were supposed to
be lending, not lending me some money, but giving me some money to support myself
during this time. Those places were not coming through. So I finally spent the last of my
last paycheck. And I just was out there with nothing. And I was running out of gas and
didn't know how I was going to pay my car insurance and different things like that. And I
just said, You know what, I've been trusting God, all of this time. I'm gonna trust God now.
And I drove to a meeting here on E, I was driving on empty when I got here, and did not
expect to get any help from here, but I wanted to attend this meeting. So came in and
started talking in attending in the group. And then afterwards, people wanted to talk to
me and find out how I was doing when I told him and some people's like, "Oh, well, you
know what, we can help you with this." And then I got, I got gas money, and I got my
insurance paid and all of these different things that I did not expect to come out of that
particular meeting happening. And they just further showed me that I need to trust God in
all of these situations, and I'm going to be alright, and I have been, and that's where my
head is focused at that. I'm just keep doing that. I realize also that karma is something
that exists too. I don't think that if I was doing the wrong thing. I don't think that all of
these good things that have happened to me, would have happened to me. I don't think
that people extending their hands out to help me would have been available. I think I
would have been in a whole different time frame for God to work. So, me doing good is, is
bringing me good things and good people into my life. And when I needed help it was
there. So, it's a message to anybody that I like to deliver is that just do good and, and
have faith have pure faith and it'll be alright things, things will fall in place. God will make
sure that you are right to take care of you.
Kathleen Clark 15:41
Well, in the summer of 2020, and with the murder of George Floyd, Minneapolis became
the epicenter of this movement to, you know, call out and change the situation around
racism in our country. Can you describe your experiences living in Minneapolis during that
time?
C
Cecil Scott 16:02
During that time? Yeah, during that time, also, the time is still in existence right now,
actually, in my life, and it's always been that time. The George Floyd situation brung, a
little bit more fear. To me personally, because I'm a black man who's had several
encounters with law enforcement that have not been good situations, I've been assaulted
Cecil 2021
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by police officers, I've been at gunpoint, I've had guns to my head, I've been hit with
different weapons that police use, handcuffs, and this is a lot of treatment that is not not
good. It's something that I would be wanting to experience again, I doubt anybody would.
But with this situation, the fears heightened because I feel like that the police are going to
want to have some type of retaliation. And they're not just gonna, they're not going to
retaliate against anybody, they're going to retaliate against people who look like me. I
don't look like a prep student, I don't look like a person who is, is going to a clerical job
every day, I look more like a street person or urban person. And to some people, I may
even look like a gang member. So I'm just like in that big target pool. So even when I'm
pumping my gas, and I see a police car driving by is a certain amount of fears, a certain
amount of energy that goes through my body, to not only just alert me, but just to get me
aware of where I'm at, in what's going on around me. I don't know how many other people
feel this, this feeling that I'm speaking up when they encounter law enforcement, I don't
believe that it's fair that I have to go through this. I don't go through this when I when I
meet other people. So is this not a race thing? It doesn't, it doesn't matter if it's a white
person or black person, Asian or whatever ethnic origin they may be, it's the whole the
whole environment of policing. When I see a black and white police car, or when I see a
police car, in general, sheriff's car, whatever, I know that there's a person in there that
could potentially cause me harm or even kill me and then possibly get away with it. And I
have no justice. I'm just dead. And that feeling that I get I describe it as fear because I
don't know what other other way to express it. I mean, I'm not walking around, ready to
stick my head in a hole because I'm afraid. But there is this feeling that this cautionary
thing when law enforcement is around that I have and it's only because of situations like
this. It's only because of that. You know, it's not fair to me. I shouldn't have that. That's like
I'm being bullied at school, knowing that I have to go to school and and see this person
every day. And then when I encountered them, I get this feeling that something could
happen. You know? And that's not fair that that's, that's completely not fair. I'm hoping
that you all understanding what I'm talking about, and can get a clear picture of it. But
that, right there is. That is this definitely something that the George Floyd situation has
created. I'm really, I'm really happy with the results and the George Floyd situation. The
man had a very hard death. And it was one of the worst ones that I ever seen. You know,
I've never seen anybody lose their life over several minutes of suffering. I've always seen
like, the guy on Chicago and Lake at night, Chicago, Chicago, and Franklin who was shot
in his head, and they're dead instantly. I've never watched somebody die, slowly, drowning
or, or being choked to death. I've never seen anything like that. And so it really impacted
me. It actually made me angry that that could happen, and these people could get away
with it. So seeing that, they decided to charge them. And one of them is currently doing
time for his crimes. Which I feel the sentence was not fair is it is some success, it is a
sentence because a lot of officers have done worse and not paid the penalty at all. But I
see young men from my urban environment, that do crimes that are similar murder in
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general, and they give 45 years. And then we got this person who was a authority figure.
He's law enforcement, and he's been doing this job for 20, 30 years. And this this person is,
is basically given a slap on the wrist. You give this little 20 year old kid who don't know too
much 45 years for the same thing. It just doesn't, it just doesn't seem fair in that aspect.
But I am glad that some justice came out of that situation. I think that it was downplayed
by monetary sympathy. What I mean by monetary sympathy is they went ahead and they
gave $27 million to George Floyd's family kind of like to say, "Well, here you got all of this
money now. Okay, so let's forget about the fact that this officer is on trial for killing your
son and whatever since he gets out of it don't make a build a big deal out of it, just accept
it and go with the flow." I don't think that that was fair either. I just monetary sympathy
and that's that's how I'm gonna put that but. This George Floyd situation has definitely
changed my life. And it's still changing. And we were going to see what happens. After
this, I mean, it to me this. This is so alive and so real. I may see too much in the things but I
think on the day that that there, Derek Chauvin was convicted. It seemed like police all
across this country just went on a killing spree towards African Americans. And we just had
so many deaths, young girls dying at the hands of police officers. And we had a young kid
over here in Brooklyn Center who was killed by a police officer. And to me it doesn't seem
that that was accidental. She said "taser taser," or whatever. But she was pulling her gun
and shooting this man with her gun and anybody who's had these two items in their hands
knows, they're completely different feel. And it just is just a bunch of BS to me. It's like this,
this is our revenge. You got one of us. So now we get one of you. You know? Actually, it's
not one of us, hundreds and 1000s. Did I did I answer your questions?
Kathleen Clark 25:08
You're so articulate and just, yes, you answered the question. Thank you so much. So, you
know, some of these recordings might be used for people that come to Street Voices to
hear more from individuals on their experiences that as of late, or maybe people 30 years
from now we're going to reflect back. So is there anything from your about your
experiences, or from other people's experiences, who may have been experiencing
homelessness, houselessness, or marginally marginally being marginally housed during
this time period that you would want to make sure that people remembered or reflected
upon 30 years from now?
C
Cecil Scott 25:59
Well, this kind of goes back to what I was saying about, about faith, and just not giving up,
you know? 30 years from now, this is gonna be useful information, just= as well as it is
today, you know, when you're in a homeless situation, you have to believe in yourself, and
you have to have faith, that things are gonna get better, in order for you to make them
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better. You know, when I first became homeless, I did not see a future. I didn't see a future
at all. And then once I got established with a good employer, I could start seeing the
future because I started having money. It was like, first I was living paycheck to paycheck,
you know, when I was trying to save money to get into a place. And eventually, over my
time and working, I started having extra money to spend on different things, and being
able to plan to do different things like maybe I'm gonna go, I'm gonna go to my favorite
restaurant this week, things that I wasn't able to do. Or maybe I'm gonna buy this pair of
shoes. Or, you know, maybe, you know that, well, now, now that I'm in my place, different
things now, it's like, "oh, maybe I can buy me some new tires for my truck, or, you know,
maybe I buy a new couch or something like that." But before, I could not see any of that
stuff. I couldn't see it and kind of blinders, you knows, like, starting to feel like the situation
was was hopeless, you know, this endless pit of nothing. And once I started seeing the
future, or seeing that I could plan and I could, I could escape all of this stuff, all I had to do
was not give up on myself, all I had to do is believe myself to do it. You know, even when
other people say, "Oh, you're not gonna be able to do that," you know, I was actually
homeless with my brother and my son. And both of them, they chose to give up and not
go the route that I went, I mean, I even had us all a job at the same place. And I'm the
only one showing up to the job. Neither one of them showed up. But needless to say,
they're both still kinda in the same sort of situation. You know, my son, he's living with his
girlfriend. My brother, I honestly don't know, I just know my brothers in the street life, he's
trapped in there. And he doesn't seem to want to change that. So any advice that I could
give to anybody would be keep your faith, don't give up on yourself. And don't accept no,
you're gonna hear no, a lot. And no's the worst that they can say to you. No is not gonna
bind you tape you up in a corner or something like that. No is the worst that they can say.
And don't always just accept no, you know. Especially if it's something that that you
qualify for. And they say that you qualify for it. You got it, you got to drive in, you got to
get the person up from them. You got to keep going until you get the results that you
want. And that's gonna be coming from your faith and your strength and believing in you.
Certainly got to go as far as you take it.
Kathleen Clark 29:52
So is there, so if you could ask people to work on something or get involved in an issue?
What would it be? Is there something that people hearing this could help with?
C
Cecil Scott 30:11
Well, I'm gonna say there is something that people listening to this could do to help.
Everybody comes from a different environment, and everybody has different teachers, in
Cecil 2021
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the beginning of our life. So our learning processes are different. And some of us are
experiencing different things out of the same situation. And so a person who has positive
energy and positive intellect to, to add to this situation should do that should try to help
the next person regardless of their capacity. I mean, you know, you can, you can be a
homeless person and help another homeless person. So don't don't ever feel like that you
can't, you might have information to give to another person that will help them along in
their, in their life. And so, I would just say, that people of all, of all lifestyles and all social
networks and people all should pay attention to this situation of homelessness, because it
takes all of us to change it, you know. There's doors that a rich person can open that a
person who has poor accommodations may not be able to open. But that person can
open it for that person with poor accommodations, you know what I mean? So well, it's
knowledge too, you know, a lot of our situation goes to education, if a person doesn't
have the knowledge to diplomat, and sort through these different situations and be
diplomatic, when they're talking to people, they're not going to be as successful, you
know. So the more knowledge that a person has to help themself, they're going to do
better. So people have all of these different circumstances, if they pull together and put all
their energy and knowledge into it, you know, we should be able to, we should be able to
help everybody. Everybody should be able to move forward. I don't see being in any other
way. So the way that life in society is always gone. One person can't do it alone.
Kathleen Clark 33:16
That's so beautiful.
C
Cecil Scott 33:19
Thank you.
Kathleen Clark 33:20
I agree. It's almost like you're talking about her inner, the inner weaving dependence we
all have on one another, right? We can't survive without each other.
C
Cecil Scott 33:30
Yeah, basically, basically, like, like I said, you know, our first our first teachers, our parents,
so all of us are gonna have different views and perspectives on life and learning. You
know, like, growing up, you know, in my community, there was this thing against law
enforcement, where, even if we weren't doing anything wrong, we see a police car and
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we're running, you know. And we was out there playing tag or something like that. And in
a different environment, it may not be the same. They might see the police car and run
over to the police car, you know, wanting to shake their hands and talk to them and stuff
like that. But it's just all of these communities coming together. For the purpose of
defeating one thing and right now what we're talking about is is to homelessness and
racial equality. You know, if we are pulled together, I believe it can be defeated. I did, my
little research on on racism, and I found out there racism. It only existed for a few 1000
years. It came in the end of the 14 the 1400 century. What it was prior to that, it was rich
and poor. So the rich and poor were fighting against each other. And the poor did not care
what race and Creed's you were we were just trying to defeat rich you know and the rich
discovered that this was happening and so they kind of put in a few different things to
detour people. One was religion, one was race and there's probably a few other things and
now even in this day and age we got different things that divide us like drugs, you know.
So I honestly just think the race card is just a joke it's a game it's a distraction. It's
something put in place to keep us from achieving our ultimate goals and they our ultimate
main goals is to evolve you know. It's like a certain section of people don't want everybody
in time they want us behind time. Just hoping I'm making sense to your because
sometimes I tend to think a little bit deep on on the higher level would obtain so much
knowledge about stuff. Nobody knows stuff.
Kathleen Clark 36:30
Well, just a few more questions and more these ones kind of geared more towards health
what would you say you need to be healthy?
C
Cecil Scott 36:43
Well, seeing that I just had surgery recently, I think I'm doing and I thought I was doing well
before the surgery too. I can only say you know, my personal situation, I would have to say
in order for me to be healthier than I am I would have to have like a dietary and type my
own personal diethiatarian you know, to keep me on track because I live right by a
grocery store and it actually is a butcher. But it's a butcher shop but it has a grocery store
and it is well called Solo and every time I go in there they just got these amazing prices on
steaks. So I'm just like constantly buying steak steak steak steak and my doctor's like, "Cut
that out, you can't just eat steak every day all day!" And I'm like you sure, I can't? I would
have to have personal dietician, you know. As far as that part of my health and I think I do
enough exercise and outdoors. Somewhat I've been going fishing every weekend I do this
every summer go fishing every weekend, until snow and ice come. Yeah, I don't know how
much more I could say on health care. I feel like I'm a healthy person.
Cecil 2021
Page 10 of 12
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Kathleen Clark 38:28
That's good and I know that you've been in a few times as far as like you know getting
socks and things but is there any other things that would be helpful for us to have or do as
nurses in this drop in center?
C
Cecil Scott 38:44
Well I personally I have bad feet in my family. And me I don't have an arch in my foot. And
so a lot of times I have problems with my back or maybe my feet are hurting standing too
long or something like that. For to have a program here dealing with the feet, wheather it
be like they got a program called Sole Care. I really just adore those when they they've
helped me take care of my feet so many different times and have helped me feel
comfortable about my feet and I think if my feet are healthy, I'm healthy, you know. I can I
can go to work and do my job and different things like that. So I think that would be a
good source of help for homeless people. A lot of times homeless people can't take off of
their their shoes. You know It was a few times and when I was in different shelters where I
had to sleep with my shoes on, because I didn't want anybody to steal my shoes, you
know. And so a lot of times I had on my shoes for three or four days before I could actually
take them off and having my my feet be refreshed or whatever. I don't know what to say.
It's like there's even a brief moments that you know I took my shoes off to take showers
and stuff like that it was like I'm right back in those shoes again, you know. So maybe 20
minutes that I had my shoes off just not really giving my my shoes or my feet a chance to
breathe and get the help that I need. Even even now with with me working, because of my
size, my feet are a long ways away from me. So it's kind of hard maintaining my feet and
so being able to go to someplace like sole care and have them help me with my feet is
just a blessing, it's just great. I think that would be a great addition. Having something like
that going on.
Kathleen Clark 41:29
Was there anything that you'd like to add before we finish for the day?
C
Cecil Scott 41:33
You know, just somebody keep their head up, keep the faith, trying to do good. Trying to
do good.
Cecil 2021
Page 11 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Kathleen Clark 41:48
Thank you so much for taking the time to share your story and your insights and have
great day.
Cecil 2021
Page 12 of 12
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
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