RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Wed, 08/07 12:51PM
94:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, father, recall, impression, remember, money, mother, augsburg, dad, relationship, question,
fact, ran, president, instance, school, family, home, person, interested
SPEAKERS
Unknown, Gerda Mortensen, ... Show more
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Wed, 08/07 12:51PM
94:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, father, recall, impression, remember, money, mother, augsburg, dad, relationship, question,
fact, ran, president, instance, school, family, home, person, interested
SPEAKERS
Unknown, Gerda Mortensen, Carl Chrislock, George Sverdrup
G
George Sverdrup 00:10
George Berger up some of the former president was for George smarter Ben Graham,
some of the another former president I should probably say as a means of I Dr. is a means
of identifying myself.Presently, teaching at Washburn, high school Minneapolis, and in the
field of mathematics,
C
Carl Chrislock 00:35
and also a graduate of Augburg--
G
George Sverdrup 00:36
graduated from Augsburg, right, and the University.
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:41
Any [inaudible]?
G
George Sverdrup 00:44
Masters in the field of educational curriculum instruction.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 1 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
C
Carl Chrislock 00:52
Well, George, there's one question he would really like to ask you, here, to start with, right.
It's a remark I think that has been made by, by some men who feel they were friends of
your your father, and that is the whole question of whether there there was a side to him
that wasn't readily visible in his public role in his role as a leader in the Lutheran Free
Church and his role as president of Augsburg. I don't know if that sparks...?
G
George Sverdrup 01:30
I would say that if there were something probably characteristic of his role that these
other people might see and not see. Probably first come to mind I think he was a
tremendous family man. Very, very strong feeling for his immediate family as well as the
family in general. He wasa great sense of humor, very compassionate, understanding, say
is quite mild mannered. If there was something which I sort of had in the back of my mind
that I would like to do, I felt more assured of getting dad's okay then mother's I think in
that regard I probably felt a little bit closer to him.
G
George Sverdrup 02:28
And I would say he would take time out from all his busy chores and whatever it might be,
to pay attention in small ways to each member of the family. And I could probably
characterize this in one way. For instance, when my sister Catherine was in nurses training
in Milwaukee at Christmas time, mother would fix up the chicken or fix up the big box, and
dad would get on the train, use his pass go overnight to Milwaukee so she could have
athis delivered to her personally in an be back in town. This happened every year when
she was out there.
G
George Sverdrup 03:07
And I can remember even as a youngster when not much more now, when I was in school,
and he would frequently leave town. But today, I knew that was going to be home. I
started running the minute I got out of school until I got up to the house. Every time I
would never walk because walking meant that, you'd just waste a little more time that you
could be with him. And this is a kind of family life. And very jovial, because I know in many
instances--grandma lived on the third floor and she was a rather strict person very
straight-laced, and many times I know she would become somewhat disturbed about the
fact that she thought maybe at the dinner table or something we were having a little too
much fun downstairs. She'd probably hear us laughing and having a good time and in her
old strict Norwegian way she wasn't so sure but what maybe this should be a more serious
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 2 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
time of the day. But we'd have--and he'd do many take time out to do little things.
G
George Sverdrup 04:14
I can remember he came into the Old Main here which stood at this point. And he went
down and I think from fuzzy or something he picked up all six-by-six above so but and a
half long. And he came home and he and I, we carved a little boat on, I still have it. And
he raised me to say Oh, but he would take the time out to do this. And is extremely close
family relationship, say about as close as a person can get.
G
George Sverdrup 04:45
And it's justand I would say this, I think this carried over I suppose in one sense or just the
other people aren't aware of this, but I think many people probably were we going to
carry this over. Was everyday living with other people extremely considerate. I don't really
know this little church we had down on the corner, Mrs. Smith. And many people thought
she was quite different but every time dad would come home we've always seen her he'd
go over and say hello. Just been passing, and this meant more to that woman, I found out
afterwards. She just was thrilled the fact that you would take time out and go back and
just say hello. And I'll say promptness. Our whole family was organized in such a way that
time was of the utmost you didn't waste time.
G
George Sverdrup 05:42
If you made appointments at three o'clock it was three if I can remember at noon
sometimes mother we're going to have the prepare some meat which had to go on was
short time on she could look out the window was the second floor and she could see when
dad came out the back door for the main building. And she knew it was time to put it on
because by the time be at the house and everything, and it wasn't a burden. I mean, it
didn't become burden. This was just it was a courtesy to one another. I think its
effectiveness. And I would say to you I think that dad had a huge respect for the dignity of
man. I think it's just very unusual for the family. I said, Oh, yes, I think so.
C
Carl Chrislock 06:39
It sort of sticks in my memory. I could readily Check. Check this I think it was Simon
Berkowitz. And maybe it was a tribute that he paid to him and his final service you talked
about. That is concerned in later years had been the way some people raise their
children.Tyranny exercisedby by some people in our culture over over their children seem
to feel very deeply on that.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 3 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 07:08
I would think if I, we did, Of course, as far as we were concerned, there was no tyranny. I
think unconsciously we learned something which I still feel very strongly about, and not
only your daily living, but it also in your religious life, you should do what is right, you
should obey because of love for a person, rather than because of fear of punishment. And
I don't mean to say that if we got out of line that we were put straight, there wasn't any
question about this, and we knew when we, but I think we were more concerned that we
were going to do something which would be against his wishes, or something which he
wouldn't quite approve of. And I think this feeling of respect and concern for dad was so
strong that we would moralists do what was right on this basis because I think Garrett
knows, probably as well as anybody but you can't describe I don't think the feeling
between that and the rest of the family. It was just something you don't describe. It was
the most wonderful experience that person could ever have and one which you would
never forget. But I would think what you say is right, I hear you didn't have the fear of the
whip over you and any sense of the word.
G
George Sverdrup 08:59
Not a job which was necessary but as most of the time you couldn't think of anything else
on a spur the moment and they looked out the window when you saw this and and then
he was here judgment when you talk to you there. We think we are and then we come in
and tell them and then 10 minutes later No, no we get together then this would be be our
reward. And I went to some of his off the job, hobbies. What did he do golf was interested
in sport is very much interested in golf. He he had sort of a standard group of golfing
partners he had Harold Martin and Marius Dixon. We're very cool. So John Blegen and Si
Melby would go out. And then on occasion, man from down in your country hammer
hammer. And we go out quite often bought early in the morning and I, you take me with
him. I started by throwing the ball out or catching and we go early in the morning, naked
back, probably all 9-10 o'clock in the morning, the cells that get back then they go to their
respective offices, and carry on for the day. But he was very much interested in involved.
And actually at one time, he was an avid stamp collector.
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:14
So you recall the time that Mr. Hammer invited your family and me to cut down to
Zumbrota and play or near one and they go and they had around the Gulf. And y'all man,
I tried a little bit, but we we sat down with Mrs. Hammer him and had to pick us but you
ran around with your dad.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 4 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 10:37
I remember one time going down, I suppose was being as young as I was, what impressed
me is I recall, he brought out a pan of ice cream from the Creamery, or soda refreshments
afterwards, and that was real ice cream. It wasn't this.
G
George Sverdrup 10:54
Boy, I mean, it was the it was the real ice cream. Everybody was quiet, very much
interested in these two aspects. And I was I've been told many times that you know that
he also was somewhat of a mathematician. And I've been told by others, sometimes prior
to a meeting in his office, a board meeting, they would come in and if they came a little
early, he'd be sitting there trying to work out some difficult math problem which for one
reason or another by sort of challenged, and I mean, he wasn't teaching math, but he
started this was a little era of recreation for him to he likes to fish to. Allah didn't get much
chance to do it, really. But we used to go up once in a while to Hollis IL. And they had the
launch resort. So we go out and fish there. How about missing? You remember his being
was interested in politics. Particular, I don't recall any interest in politics other than interest
in the everyday the the interest that a citizen should have. And I would this is something
else that always stuck with me from home. That mother could talk over the issues in the
politics today. But as far as how each one voted, this was never exchanged. Thank you was
complete privacy, you know, where he respected her right to vote as she wished. And she
respected his when they went to the polls, this was a private affair. And this is all admitted
impression on me for what little I know of it. But I see it more now that we can discuss the
issues. But when it comes to the polls, you exercise your privilege in New York. But other
than this, as far as any participation in this nothing I there any indication or have ever
heard of any.
U
Unknown 12:51
Something kind of interesting that I've seen in researching is the key was on the board of
the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Children to animals and children. Before it
G
George Sverdrup 13:01
Oh? was news to me, it was a joint oh? Uh huh
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:08
letterhead reads Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and children
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 5 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 13:14
[Laughing] And put them in the same category?!
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:18
Anything to do with the Temperance Movement and this now I know that Scerda also that
we admired him
G
George Sverdrup 13:24
He Scerda? Oh, yes, they did not. To my knowledge, he had no what you might call active
part in it. Not the some of these people not to my knowledge.
C
Carl Chrislock 13:35
Well, you know, I have been in other research I have come across letters from from your
father that was this was particularly 1914, you know, that would be before our time. Right?
And well, it is these letters were in the in the Sagin papers. And he did in 1914 it was a
question of whether Sagin should run for the governorship or representing really drive
forces. And the Republicans had nominated, or the Progressive Republicans had Sput
forth the candidate whose name was William Lee for for the nomination and your father
was urging Saging, you know, to support me along with a great many others.
C
Carl Chrislock 14:20
Well, now, um, there's some There's another question here. I'd like to ask it, did you do you
have the impression or do you remember whether the, the administrative burdens as such
or weighed heavily on him? You know, there's some people who think that he was
supremely the scholar and, and, and that
G
George Sverdrup 14:21
Oh, I see, uh huh, boy.
G
George Sverdrup 14:48
I would say this in that regard, I would say I don't think he cared much for the
administrative part, I think this is something he felt went for the job. And of course, he was
called here at the death of his father shortly thereafter. He was not he was an
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 6 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
archaeologist, he was interested in Semetic land riches. This was not as big interest to you
as offered as I understand it a the opportunity to on the faculty at the University [of
Minnesota] right And incidentally, as I understand even discussed this some Welcome to a
full course he is extremely productive. But I think he had a very, very strong feeling within
him that this was a both a calling and a duty that they had called and this is where he
should spend and I'm sure that the administrative part of it as near as I can remember and
an untold and as you get picked up from conversations was not very enjoyable for him
because as you say, he was primarily a scholar. Quite a scholar at that as I understand
and--
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:00
You can certainly remember him reading at home.
G
George Sverdrup 16:02
Oh yes! That standpoint In fact, you know, it's a strange--people that come over a as
people are many people seem to like to come to the house just to sit and discuss with him
topics. In fact, I can remember, probably the last time or two years ago Nori caught a
storyline tells it remembering how dad he used to sit and listen to the old Bishop starlet
and dad Converse on theological matters, and apparently impressed him very much. This
was one of his recollections of that. And people used to like to come and, and discuss
various topics. And, of course, I was too small to know what was going on. But I will sit and
listen.
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:48
I know that a company somebody who could talk the record, man, I know good discussion.
I was, you know, it was wonderful, go to meetings, and go over here.
G
George Sverdrup 17:04
I as I say, I was I don't know, I was told by someone outside the family and nothing, that at
the time he went to university, his grades, his record at the university was something I was
told it was as strong as it ever been given. And
C
Carl Chrislock 17:23
Well we saw some letters from his father, to to him at the time, he was a young father was
so jubilant over the fact that he had completed his Ma and such record time, and was in
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 7 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
1901.
G
Gerda Mortensen 17:39
And then he said himself that he sluggish and his weight
G
George Sverdrup 17:44
Was I understand he, of course, money was quite a problem for him, he had a pass on the
railroad delay went up to Niagara Falls. And I guess many times he would get on and take
the overnight ride. And this was for the night. If you happen to be down.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:03
So that he had a place to stay.
G
George Sverdrup 18:03
This I don't know all the details up. But as I was told by the family that this is what
happened. And of course, then he tutored on some of the Vanderbilt's some of the very
influential people, at least financially speaking, go up to their summer place up in Canada
and tutor them as a means of getting a little money. Because the money he didn't have.
And it was quite a problem for then he got on with the school of archaeology. And this, of
course, apparently really took his fancy.
C
Carl Chrislock 18:38
Well, now in in later years, did he have the opportunity to continue those, those scholarly
interests. Now, in one way, I suppose there's a link up between what he was interested in
and what he did at Augsburg. He taught the Old Testament seminary there and and then
will be connection there with Semitic languages. But I'm, I'm wondering, did you have the
opportunity, for example, to go to learn at conferences, some biblical archaeology, or...?
G
George Sverdrup 19:05
To my knowledge? No, I think he was always active in the American archaeological
society. And I do have a small print at home of a paper which he wrote for the society that
we call the date for this already. But I think the basic interest was there. He was not out of
contact, for instance, some of the people in eastern schools, they wrote a book on
occasion it was sent to dad for, to read through and four comments here and there. And I
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 8 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have one or two of them at home with his stories and Madeline employed, was the one
who was designed for his
C
Carl Chrislock 19:45
Was the divided constituency on on this, there were some who didn't want to, to, to move
fast. And I think there were some who felt that your father didn't move fast enough. But I
sort of get the impression here that he knew where he wanted to move. And was
proceeding at a pace where he could take the bulk of the constituency among with him. I
would, I would think it was always my impression that he
G
George Sverdrup 20:15
When dad would, they would listen, I think people had a tremendous amount of
confidence in him in this regard. And here we go right back to I think the whole thing he
had near as I can tell a tremendous facility for bringing those about him with him. And
other words, I think this faculty and those will work with him I nearly I feel admired him to
the extent where they would give great sacrifice. And believe me, they did as her when it
was as well as anybody tremendous sacrifice. But if they could work with him and work
towards an Africa gaining the confidence and the respect to people,
G
George Sverdrup 21:01
I think this was
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:02
the hub of probably a fairly good sense of timing as to, you know, when when it was when
it was feasible to make a suggestion or withhold or whatever she would
G
George Sverdrup 21:15
probably know more
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:16
about the annual conferences, but issues with come up now I started to go in the in 1917.
And I visit every annual conferences, trip to history, booth and free church. And I can
remember those days, there will be those who were so ready to talk out of the top of their
head in a very thin layer, rain matter. They were generally the first to get up and shut up.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 9 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
And then others would talk and then those who were very headstrong convictions, one
way or the other, they would get up and talk. And long after everybody's got a gun. This
often their mind. Then the chair which I look over in the direction to see if he didn't see the
sometimes called.
G
Gerda Mortensen 22:12
And then you could just understand how he could analyze. Never be little quiet isn't said
even if it was a very little because he was too great for this. And then he will somehow
point out the directions, maybe a middle path, maybe it would go one way, but he would
most show that he was not a man of many words. He occasionally in those early days,
resorted to Norwegian but this was very seldom fairly spoken. But it's the situation
demanded, because he knew some people didn't understand English very well who were
very hot about this, but he knows. But this kind of clarification.
U
Unknown 23:00
Did you speak Norwegian in your family at home?
G
George Sverdrup 23:05
Only a very limited, this goes back to something in a sense related to what Gerda just
said. I remember dad saying this. He said we are in America now. English is our language.
And consequently, we spoke English dad and mother both fluent Norwegian, and they
would speak it on occasion. But here you have a strange situation, I suppose. If there was
something they didn't want me, for instance, to know, they would speak in Norwegian. But
this never bothered me. And I questioned it and never to the point of wanting to know
because I know this was something that I wasn't supposed to know. And they knew what
was best. And so this was it. So they would speak Norwegian on this occasion that
grandma used to become. She's sometimes a little provoked at me because she thought I
should know more Norwegian. I remember dancing. We're in America, we speak English.
And I'm not so sure about what he was right. And this did not mean that he was not
bilingual or trilingual, whatever it should be. He was he certainly would promote this. But
you must be a citizen of the country or whichever part
G
Gerda Mortensen 24:16
of this is coming into that little Americanization right.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 10 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 24:21
So we did not. But I would say something else to it. This is just digressing for a moment,
but I can head home wants to know out of bed early, then I would get up before our
mother me to have breakfast. And of course, it never gave me coffee, but a bad rap. He
might put a little bit about. I don't know if I should say it or not. But just from the
standpoint of just to get a relationship. I think this all reveals that type of a person. He was
fantastic. I don't think I've ever greater man ever lived. More it'll be but if we had hard
boiled egg or something, his mother wasn't around.
G
George Sverdrup 25:03
Breaking that's sort of gave a little comradeship here that
G
George Sverdrup 25:09
it's just fantastic. But now somebody's going in his office wouldn't hardly would hardly
think of him was cracking apparent boiled egg. No, I yeah. Several times tonight. You
couldn't find out what he would do with this. And I? And as I look back at it, it wasn't
haphazard. I'm not sure. But what there's a design here, I would expect to sort of put
another thread between us doing the wrong. Mother was more proper, a nice respects.
She was quite a proper and a wonderful woman. And when she wasn't around, and we
kind of have a little shenanigans, because she kind of frowned on it.
G
Gerda Mortensen 25:51
But I think if I'm right, every dinner two people at the table.
G
George Sverdrup 26:00
I bet you
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:01
might have question. It was Sarah
G
George Sverdrup 26:04
napkin, right?
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 11 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 26:06
She was a master at this. She could set a table like few people ever could. And I think and
part of it due to the fact that she took pride in it. She was proud of where the table Look,
she was proud of the way the food was prepared.
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:26
And then she shared this hospitality because they were the hotel for everybody.
G
George Sverdrup 26:33
Holly ever made a note would you see and what you see here? And this is another
impression that I have, I guess partly from some of the sources I've dug into it. And also
partly from you know, my, my own memories. Yes, you already certainly that there was a
tremendous regard for the priorities, you know, the right way to do things, and I think it
was that written guard that gave them gave the students sometimes the impression, you
know that he he was pretty reserved, and there wouldn't be any overstepping of bounds
or Oh, no, in in, in the ordinary relationship. So I think so I, for instance, I would say in
regard to what you saying is another, I suppose our law rule of thumb of the household
was this. There are many things which are let's put this way dad was not as strict as many
of the people in that day, and there is an older people. And we always had this or as a
cardinal rule of our conduct outside the house. And that utility, right? We must not do
anything which would in any way. Trouble the other person. I mean, mentally, for instance,
sir, you might have a certain activity, or some group of people might think would be
wrong. Basically, what he would think would be fine, but we're rather strict. But rather
than go ahead with what you thought you should do, because of this position, he wouldn't
say, well, maybe this activity is all right, there's nothing really wrong with it. But there are
those who feel differently. And in my position in our position, we really don't have the right
to offend them. And this was pretty much a card rule. And here again, you talked about
the preacher child in the park, this was a little bit of a but with his mind it. I mean, I never
did this, this never bothered me. But I know this was a cardinal rule, you do not offend
those around you. Because so doing it would be wrong, even though you're you yourself
might think a certain activity, where would be alright. Would that be on issues like
attending movies for on issues, such as attending movies, for instance, I mean, to add to
was not opposed to movies.
G
George Sverdrup 28:59
But I don't know my recollection of that everyone to move in Minneapolis.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 12 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 29:04
They may have I don't know that. I don't recall this, but I do know,
G
George Sverdrup 29:09
going around tales outside of the school, that when he and burn Fest, and some of these
fellows would meet in Chicago for a meeting. If there wasn't a movie, which they thought
was a particular interest and has some value. This is where they would attend it not here.
Because someone here might see them go in and be offended. But there they can do it in
the hot and this was cardinal rule. We didn't we just didn't do. And what about the the
legitimate theater, so coming on the stage to do maybe the west side on the west coast.
And here again, is matter of finance, and we just didn't have money to do anything. It
wasn't a question of whether you I have never heard them. I don't ever recall hearing
much pro or con on this. I suppose it was something which maybe it wasn't as problems as
now, aside from the fact that as far as are going that was another question. There just
wasn't any money for? Well, as I recall, did your father ever drive a car or have a car? Yes,
he had a 28 we were gonna leave at one time. And finally sold at the fussy It was quite an
old car. I can remember we used to go to my nominee once in a while to see the Andre
isms. And we'd go down to cannonballs. And once in a while to see the hammers. And of
course, the little fish stuff present monta mango or an event that you look forward to the
year around that and I'm sure guarantee went down on certain instances where this
G
Gerda Mortensen 30:47
is crystal supervisor.
G
George Sverdrup 30:50
Oh, that was a big deal. But anyway, he had this old car but we I'm ever doors and if you
went much over 4045 miles an hour, you burn out the bearings. We couldn't do. Sosa
finally got rid of the car sold at the pharmacy. And then in 37, the school bought a car 37
460 horsepower there that he was to use and soliciting funds, but outside of that was
always walking, or we take the speaker on Sunday afternoons, we go down to walk down
Franklin Avenue to the Art Institute you'd like to go in and that little children's program,
which I would go to and then or once a while we'd walk over to the bridge for the Sunday
afternoon symphonies. But wherever these
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:35
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 13 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
companies were
G
George Sverdrup 31:36
at Northrop. Yeah, we'd go over there, but it was walking that I know that the trip was still
there was
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:43
whenever the
G
George Sverdrup 31:44
symphony played, they played at the Lyceum, oh, well, this was a prior template sale.
G
George Sverdrup 31:51
But I can remember is
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:53
that you could get sending asking ticket for that thing.
G
George Sverdrup 31:57
That was a weekly goal was I don't want the artist to do it was I said we'd walk or take the
street car. I can remember vividly, once in a while when you go out to visit people Sunday
afternoon, or Sunday was a family date we visited ran the same. And you all Yes. Right. So
this was Sunday, it was your family day. And but if we go visit somebody and once in a
while they had a car, they say well, may we drive you home? And sit there with you? Oh, I
wish. No, thank you very much. We will take the streetcar. I couldn't remember it. So
what's it about like needling him a little bit, I had an appreciation of art, all very much so
very much. So. In fact, we had sort of a standard joke around house when he when he
remodel his office when they cut down the bookcases and put the desk and then he was
given a certain amount of money to go out and buy some fixtures and furnishings. And he
bought a couple of what he referred to as advised us to save a solid, be we're all no this is.
This is fine. But I think as far as RT, culturally, a great appreciation for our music.
Gerda Mortensen 33:15
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 14 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:15
Over here
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:18
present innovation University sent
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:22
over here. Can
G
George Sverdrup 33:33
we repeat? No, I think we were all we're all given them very strong sense of that which is
good in life and society quotes what we refer to as good advice.
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:47
Very much so well, he have in his files, there are letters
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:52
from him to the railway company, I think it was the Great Northern, he didn't have any
money to I paintings for old name, the hawk the halls. And so he wrote requesting some
prints apparently that they had of yellow stone 70 or something like this, you know. And
the official in the on the railroad wrote back and said that they didn't have any of those
large funds that have to even have to depend and be satisfied with named size of the
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:27
I some, I think somewhere in archives or in there must be they must finish
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:34
that he was he was after getting some works
G
George Sverdrup 34:37
of art for the for the halls of old name, I would say it was a very sensitive verse, very
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 15 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
sensitive.
G
George Sverdrup 34:46
But I think some of us on the campus here were very conscious of the fact that
G
George Sverdrup 34:52
that he stood ready to encourage your, you know, activity of this kind. I was especially
interested in debate. And I remember the first time I ever debated in front in the front
rows. I think he was really interested in that kind of activity. I would think so. And now
what about what about the intercollegiate athletics? Did you ever? Did you ever
remember any discussions or anything about his position on that? The only a little bit
cool. Um, I was a little bit cool, because I think he was very pleased when Jimmy Peterson
approached him on the intramural program, I think this was something was he was very
much in favor of his I think he felt that this was more what he thought the athletic
program should be more people participating, participating for fun and
G
George Sverdrup 35:46
recreation the little than that, right.
G
George Sverdrup 35:51
And this was, I think, basically, as I I can vaguely remember as being quite pleased, Jim
Peterson was employed. And of course, in those days, it was rather frustrating Prague's for
a program to be honest about it. But as far as attending games, now, he probably didn't
attend as many games as many of the people. And he had this point of view. It was this,
he said, he felt that the students saw him all day long. And they were with him and is more
or less is present all day long. And they should be free of this. In the evening, or extra
hours, he felt that the president
G
Gerda Mortensen 36:34
should not
G
George Sverdrup 36:37
always be with them. And yeah, I think he felt that they were more free, and that they
could relax more if he wasn't around. So actually, as far as athletic events I don't ever
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 16 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
recall as attending so many. And I do recall this point of view, saying the fact that they see
me all day long, they should have a little reading.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:00
I
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:03
wanna junction to me, and I came wherever the students go, you go.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:11
And convention, I went long as they were meeting I was
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:18
then I was fairly, I was younger than some of it
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:23
was of their generation.
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:28
But there's one other thing, I think, to that, on rare occasions, this is terrific. And I was
willing to spend an evening with you folks. And then he would like sort of the part where
they get a little rundown on everything that was going on. But I had a feeling that he very
seldom to any of his administrators business home. No, he left the campus this didn't
concern the family of America with an issue. Like Should we take chairmanship of this
drive and all of it then, on the other hand, the day to day things, and all of this this was
taken,
G
George Sverdrup 38:09
I just remember when he came home, we just had fun.
G
George Sverdrup 38:12
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 17 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Not to that. But just everything was was just playing pleasant. And I do think too is in
language, you said the I think he did have the facility of delegating authority. In other
words, he shared it where the you know, women and this was her job. And if you're going
to hire let her do it. I mean, what this is all is my impression that he he could he would do
this though it was he didn't feel he had to be directly involved with all the little details.
And like she says, I don't ever recall is bringing much to this. Not in the family when we got
together as a family it was. And he took an interest in what each person in the family had
done that day, or what were you doing, or I mean, each person's activities. And IF
remember, you see how 11 years old when he died. But nevertheless, even at that age,
when you consider all his problems and things, all the little things I did, I was made to feel
that they were very important. And they were to me and I think the fact that he gave me
the impression that they were important added also important to them only and also
began to get the spirit between the two. Well, now did you feel that he had the facility of
throwing office cares when he was at home? Or did they weigh heavily on him? I mean, in
spite of the i i think they probably weighed heavily on him but I don't think he I don't think
he let me know and I feel this way about it. Because I was even Chris you can't be as
interested in a school or a program or an activity as he was as interested in people
without having these problems way on you. You can't divorce yourself from this. Or Nikki
at the facility at least outward they gave me is the impression as a family that the cares
were gone, but I'm sure of it. it's inconceivable that you could have as high regard for
people and human dignity and the personality and not have the same way on you
because it's a part of the all the time
G
George Sverdrup 40:21
were you were you aware of
G
George Sverdrup 40:26
these illness before he really came down was he and all the first I would say this in
retrospect mother used to say that and I wouldn't notice it right off the table he would sit
with one arm it was not as mobile as the other I don't not mean this was any paralysis, but
it just seemed to maybe something was bothering the first that I knew of his me exactly.
was at home the night that he went to bed that was when he got the attack before his
mother was in the hospital members My Sister Catherine herself Dr. Marber however he
himself was aware of this was had been aware of it for some time because he'd gone to St.
Louis to see life and katha member Catherine polygon I remember this because I was
quite enemies. I mean, they go down there but it was sometime I don't I don't recall but
then up to a year or more but apparently you've been to a doctor and I know that at this
time he was aware of but I found out since and one of his reasons for his trip was to talk
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 18 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
this over with life because apparently he had made some arrangements with life that if he
died and he apparently they thought that this was coming quite soon the Blake was kind
of very smart. I supervise the situation for a while, which he did. And so then we had the
that was the first name place I'd ever had. That was just the last moment. I can remember
I the next morning I was in the hospital. And I came over dog spray came over the main
building went down the basement, kind of hidden the room because I was not willing to
see them take him from the house to an ambulance ran down the basement of the main
building. I remember that just was rude. Password Jimmy Peterson was in the hospital.
Jimmy it hadn't happened to me at the time because I can remember going up to see that
he was the oxygen death and he was pretty successful. And mother was in the room next
rope in the camp.
G
George Sverdrup 42:48
And
G
George Sverdrup 42:49
I can remember I went into see Jimmy and I remember Yes, all they had was
G
George Sverdrup 42:55
there was a very
G
Gerda Mortensen 42:59
fine relationship Perry unless your sister's friend. They came in I think Margaret Hulbert.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:06
She just because they were accepted in a wonderful way in the family and
G
George Sverdrup 43:12
the boys just like another another member of the family.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:17
But I can remember that call.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 19 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:20
He wanted Jenny script on focusing the last card
G
George Sverdrup 43:23
for the opening chapter.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:28
And she can have it neck he and he had 100 pound for it. I'm in the right place.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:34
And then I said
G
George Sverdrup 43:37
for I've sat back and see
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:39
your father's face.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:42
And I saw it many times in the first month of school. All want to just looked at
G
George Sverdrup 43:49
Blue and Nash.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:52
Get up this week.
G
Gerda Mortensen 43:55
force it down evidently. See this.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 20 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 43:59
I guess I told one of the nurses a few days beforehand that he had a special nurse and he
told her he says
G
George Sverdrup 44:08
Armistice Day says something wonderful is going to happen.
G
George Sverdrup 44:15
Anyway, this is very highly personal for me. I
G
George Sverdrup 44:20
my mother died unexpectedly on October 11 house on the west coast.
G
George Sverdrup 44:27
And I got back I think it was October 13.
G
George Sverdrup 44:31
And my sister was at I was privileged to meet me and your father also happened to be
there.
G
George Sverdrup 44:39
He was on his way out.
G
George Sverdrup 44:42
And she asked him to tell me I didn't know what you call.
G
George Sverdrup 44:49
And just think that was a very short time before he passed.
G
George Sverdrup 44:56
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 21 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
People quite often, of course, I suppose that solution.
G
George Sverdrup 45:01
People would come to him at home constantly for help in their personal lives and this
man. And this must have been kind of a burden. He must certainly be carrying a pretty
heavy burden. 20th and probably his heart was getting rather tired. Yeah. Of course this
as I say, I didn't know I don't know that anybody else.
G
George Sverdrup 45:30
Late Oh, no. He was the one to know. When he was gonna meet him. I don't think you
G
George Sverdrup 45:36
know, I don't the old lady and dad. And that was the best man ever. You know, I mean,
Dad was Marshall, he came over here from Norway. And away from that I would say
closest to people could be how much difference was there in their age about 15 years or
so? You figure dad was born in 79. Life must be about 68 or so nine nine now. Yeah. So you
see it 20 or 30 or something like that? Maybe I would get something like this on the basis
of that. Who would you say was some of your father's other close intimate friends? And
burntwood I suppose Well, you have you have to neighborhood there been a time before
birth it was married ease to come to the house for dinner on Sundays when they after
church services you have to say burn fit very much so. And I'll repeat again, Mario sticks.
Very close.
G
George Sverdrup 46:44
And
G
George Sverdrup 46:47
what about the Blegen brothers so I don't recall I suppose they were friends but I don't
really recall a Johnny was probably within the mortar anyone else because it's Trinity. But
I know I don't I recall,
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:03
I think offended was the Lincoln senior
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 22 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:08
father.
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:10
There was this in
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:14
this men like
G
George Sverdrup 47:16
I don't recall
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:18
some of that some of the older men, there was a strong feeling of
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:24
understanding each other and tremendous respect. They loved him as a young man saw
that he was picking up the
G
George Sverdrup 47:34
down as far as real close friends outside of merchants and dicks need his clothes to stay
on the line, but he was far away but their clothes and life. I would say to my knowledge as
I recall, that was pretty pretty much it, which is parties again and we say close friends. He
had a high regard and was very friendly with many. Well it just had a wealth of friends.
But not so much so those that you really break down with us.
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:05
But he was he was and so for many years his treasure Trinity Church man and his his
interest in late in the work at Trinity Church and and deaconess hospital. Right. And so you
have this because it was under his father. That deaconess hospital has been started so
there was this kind of relationship to the ground. I think that he started to build a quite a
strong relationship with with many Christmas and as you came as a young teacher and
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 23 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and admired a great mind, but I do think that what about his friendship was difficult.
48:50
For her it's never
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:54
because I think that my own feeling was it bear clan was a very impatient President of the
Board of Regents sees a bedtime and he wanted many things. As impatient as the fact
that he didn't move fast enough and he was kind of he was the Esquire member every
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:12
time he dressed. like nobody else dress, paper books, Straw Hats at an angle and so on.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:20
Ever, ever say anything? I think there was a feeling among the faculty to some extent for a
while. His oh there was that he was trying to dominate it too much. And then suddenly,
you see he's gone. But I can remember the the one sentence from the sermon that he
preached it is handled. Vengeance belongs to me, says the Lord, I will recompense I need
repeated to the end. And you mentioned the names of Harold and whatever that other
Brooklyn loyalists.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:55
But this was, this is a very sad thing. I do think that he must have had quite the trenches.
Mr. Hammer,
G
George Sverdrup 50:01
Oh, yes. Hammer Dave, he was a he was really a salt of the earth. And for years, even
after a hammer passed away, a mother kept close contact with her. I mean, this was there,
there
G
Gerda Mortensen 50:15
were variables. But I think that there was much more of the comic strip, really, he must
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 24 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have had it in his, in his letter writing with some of his relatives to know.
G
George Sverdrup 50:26
This, I would say in this regard, and I and there's something I was on a we were always, I
should say taught not taught as such but aware of a very, very strong family circle of
family tie. In other words, not an egotistical because that there was just no room for
egotism anywhere. But we were proud. in the best sense of the word of our family, we
were taught to our family, watch something special, not in the egotist. by me just because
because they were our family. I mean,
G
Gerda Mortensen 51:05
there was again, this concern
G
George Sverdrup 51:07
now this, this is a strong, extremely strong family unit. And I think I have this way to me,
my family is just the Yep, not that we're better than anyone else. This has nothing to do
with it. But a very strong tie or a close. And then probably a sense of obligation that goes,
Well, I think this is true, I think probably. And I think this would be again, characteristic of
the family as a group. And I would phrase it this way that whatever talents we have, are
no credit to us, but rather a gift. And it is man's obligation to take the gifts which he has
and develop it. And after having developed it is being used to be used for the betterment
of society, not for one's own personal gain, but you can't justify your existence unless you
have contributed to the Welfare Society. Now, I don't say that we've all done this to the
utmost. Quite the contrary, I'm sure. But still this attitude, I think prevails for excellence.
Again, he's not interested really in money. He asked me late Isn't
G
Gerda Mortensen 52:23
he has it?
G
George Sverdrup 52:25
This is the system
G
George Sverdrup 52:28
to develop your town to serve to see that you gotten this and this is benefiting society.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 25 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
This is the thing. Well, I mean, to read more in the history of Norway during the period of
john shredders, Prime Ministership? No, he was an uncle of your grandfather, right, Johan,
right? He took over the Prime Ministership in 1884. I don't just want to terminate it. He had
an 89 was it? Yeah. 1889. And
G
George Sverdrup 53:03
it's kind of interesting here. He had
G
George Sverdrup 53:07
one of his nephews in the cabinet who was almost I don't know whether this is too far
fetched. But it was almost from some of the reading. I've done. The relationship between
those two was almost reminiscent of JFKM. And Bob, all of this could be Yeah. Dad was,
yeah, that's awkward. So I don't know that he actually ever went in. I think on two
occasions, he was asked to be a member of the ministerial. But I think on both occasions,
he turned it down. Of course, in latter years, he had a speech difficulty, so that, you know,
53:53
well, let's see. No, you know, can we
G
Gerda Mortensen 53:56
use some of your impressions of attendance, Oxburgh? is the son of the president? Yeah,
before you do that. Yeah. But before you do that, we talked about relationship to others.
You talk about co very Lindemann a little bit about your father talk about talk about
friends, on the faculty, I think he had a kind of a friendship with Marion, which was the
same kind of thing, like going to a movie in Chicago with Brian,
G
George Sverdrup 54:24
was it sort of, I think, in a way took him away from the campus, because she was not one
with him. oros in bread in the Free Church and come up and was close with you. You might
in a sense, classify fire as an outsider, in a sense, who'd come in quite vibrant, fight
personality. So he did. He thought a lot of her in very high regard. And this was very
evident, I think right along. And as you say, it was kid took them off the campus, I think, in
a sense,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 26 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 54:59
cosmic Allison
G
George Sverdrup 55:00
now, right, let's, I don't know if you properly use the word refreshing or not, but not that
the others weren't? This is not the point. But it was a change, in a sense. Well, I think one
can already understand this, because certainly he had, he had sensitivities, and, and, and
needs, that probably would be a little frustrating, frustrated in the position that he was in.
I think so this is true. In other words, I think in one sense of the word coming here and
taking over as it was confining to him. Yes. In other words, he wanted to, I think his great
desire would have been to a facility studies in a broad sense and gone in to a much
broader area and where he could concentrate on this. And I say, I think this was somewhat
confining, I guess bound to be to an individual start.
G
Gerda Mortensen 56:00
He's far ahead of his colleagues and far ahead of the
G
George Sverdrup 56:05
other one. Yeah, I can say.
G
George Sverdrup 56:09
I think I say even without prejudice is a fantastically wonderful person, I just can't imagine.
G
George Sverdrup 56:17
I can see your leg. And just one more thing here, too. And then we get to the question
Atari as
G
George Sverdrup 56:26
here's some incident that may be revealing people bringing towels quite often. And he
says that he had, you know, a very friendly relationship with Him not probably intimate or
very friendly, but friendly, I'm sure. And one day, he said your father called him. And this
must have been before he got the Buick, because he wanted to break into Dr. There was a
tree out on the boulevard that he thought was a pretty and he wanted to to to take
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 27 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
theater bringing out there so they could see it all. Does that does that they would do this I
mean to to him, this is to him, this would be a quite an occasion. For Well, if you want to
use the word for play here for recreation, that sort of thing. It didn't take money was a
things about you. In other words, if you could see the beauty
G
George Sverdrup 57:26
in your surroundings,
G
George Sverdrup 57:29
this think would leave an impression with him. But I think it did for all of us to set because
G
George Sverdrup 57:36
as
G
George Sverdrup 57:38
a head of the household sees sodas, in many instances, a family and I was you begin to
develop an appreciation through this because it was not something he kept himself. But I
if you I think this would be truly if you can see the beauty around you and and doesn't
have a beautiful tree as you see it, take your and say, well, let's go down and take a look
this evening, maybe all the house that had a particular type of architecture, something of
this sort didn't cost us any money. And yet you get more enjoyment more lasting
enjoyment from this and you do anything else? Well, I I really go for people who will do
that?
G
George Sverdrup 58:24
Because
G
George Sverdrup 58:26
I guess the typical American male won't No, no, a very sensitive person in that regard.
Now, Terry, you were you were asking about George was it
G
George Sverdrup 58:41
was it was coming here impressions? How it must have been to,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 28 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:47
to be the son of the president of such stature in some
G
George Sverdrup 58:53
way, I think probably knows much about this far as i epidemic on occasion. We've talked
about it, as we did at length on it, we should kind of go one day, we don't have No, you
don't. But
G
George Sverdrup 59:06
I will say extremely difficult.
G
George Sverdrup 59:10
Because I always felt and I do to this day.
G
George Sverdrup 59:14
That no way could I myself ever approach this man. I mean, as far as the ability, all those
characteristics. It's extremely difficult thing in one sense. And other stamps, it's it's nice,
because it's wonderful. But I have a heritage handed down from people of this type.
Listening, this is a marvelous part of it. But I always felt and I still hesitate quite a bit, even
coming on the campus for fear that somebody will say well, because of his name. He feels
into this. So in other words, you you lose your identity, in a sense. Now, some people
wouldn't. And I think this defense is different personality, some people wouldn't, some
people would rise above this. It's not my personality to do so.
G
George Sverdrup 60:16
And this has been a real problem for
G
George Sverdrup 60:19
you. In fact,
George Sverdrup 60:22
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 29 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 60:22
I'd say that probably in a sense was added to the fact that when I was here is right after
the warrior that everything was in my education was in a turmoil anyway. And then, but I
was fine on a couple of occasions. on two occasions, a teacher called me down for
something which I hadn't done publicly in class. And I was about ready to walk out.
Because, and boy, I know the individual versus who they are, this is no importance. But I
know, I can almost tell you every single second of the detail, but this all was bothered. And
it does to this day, for instance, I see some of these threads on slack here. And the first
thing that comes to my mind. I wonder what they think of me. Because when I was here, I
probably man, I I suppose I was a nuisance as a lot of people are. And then I was no
different. This almost bothers me. And I feel very, very apprehensive to this day coming on
campus. Because I don't I have guarantee. Here's a particular friend of mine. You see, this
is different. But
G
Gerda Mortensen 61:34
I would wonder how I would react if I were in your situation? Maybe it's a bit difficult to try
to.
G
George Sverdrup 61:41
Well, I if I think if I had to do over again, that I would have gone to a different school, you
would think so? Yes, not because and this is no sense derogatory against dogs. We had
some fantastic teachers here. But if I gone to another school, and I think to this day, I
would have been better off psychologically, because then I could have made my own way.
And I could have gone out and men an individual men myself and not have to say, well,
you're the son of Sol Sol, UR songs
G
Gerda Mortensen 62:17
occur to you at the time, it's just
G
Gerda Mortensen 62:21
that you should have changed schools. I mean, when you were here, did you think I
shouldn't be here I should be at?
G
George Sverdrup 62:28
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 30 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Well, I would say this, probably bother me to a degree. But you see, again, I was here, just
one here. And then I went in the Navy for three years, you see. So that was not a
continuum here. And and this does make quite a difference. But I it's it's, as I say, it's a
wonderful thing. To have a man such as this for your father, but also extremely difficult.
Depending on I know if my sister Catherine, she took her nurses training in the wall,
because she come up through the school on her dad, and she just did not want to go to
the poor dad was on. And in no sense of the word would he ever make you feel this?
course I had a little bit of a problem too, I suppose. You have to remember that in the
background of all this. I was living on that night.
G
George Sverdrup 63:20
And after that time,
G
George Sverdrup 63:23
I shifted for myself. I mean, as far as my decision, not that mother wouldn't have
wonderful woman. And always say if it was just my personality, I was close to him. And
from then on. I wish now that I probably all of my whole life. I could have had some of
these guys, you see, but this was a nightmare. And consequently, all these things I
G
Gerda Mortensen 63:44
got to be the last.
G
George Sverdrup 63:46
I was a loner. I've always been a loner, and I think this is part of it.
G
George Sverdrup 63:53
I mean, I didn't
G
Gerda Mortensen 63:54
I think this this makes sense.
G
George Sverdrup 64:00
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 31 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
was uh, I don't like this idea of losing your identity. I mean, unless I can make it on my own,
then. Uh, so I don't have a right to go ahead.
C
Carl Chrislock 64:12
Well, I think there are other faculty children who have gone here who have felt not to the
same degree probably should you
G
George Sverdrup 64:20
know, as I say, this is a difference in personality. I think this I'm probably more sensitive to
this than many.
G
George Sverdrup 64:28
But like you said, No, no, I don't think the fact that either girls and I don't think it would
have affected me to this extent of that and then let me know, I don't think I think could
have been all different. But the design of it here, Danny and I can take it away. Well, this
could be I don't know this. As I say even to this day, I'll sit at home in a chair on one side
Gee, I wish I could take like two boys over to see their grandparents yc this something I
can't do. And again, As I say, the man such as that just says something new. You don't put
it in words, that's all there is to know.
G
Gerda Mortensen 65:13
Well, isn't a question of living it down? It's a question of living up to it.
G
George Sverdrup 65:16
So, yeah, let's just write and I don't think people I don't mean to imply that people
consciously force you into this. In fact, I think they probably know. They don't know that
you feel this way. And you're certainly not going to come out and tell them off the record.
But this this, this is, I mean, it's, it's a real problem.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:47
Well, I suppose it's partly to a case, in understanding the reaction of other people in their
attitude may not be exactly what it seems to be.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 32 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 65:56
You know, I think this is undoubtedly true.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:58
Some people may You know what I mean a manner of speaking standing all of somebody
coming from a from a very distinguished traditional
G
Gerda Mortensen 66:14
when when the person doesn't want to be studying
G
George Sverdrup 66:19
well this is what I know. This is way dad was himself. I mean, he was as close to the people
at Trinity on the board be the carpenters, bombers, bricklayers which are all just as good a
professional present universe University Minnesota I'm in but he was just as close to them I
think because he was the other guys it was no, never any difference nothing ever indicate
that any one person with any way. be better be different. Never. Unthinkable.
C
Carl Chrislock 66:59
Now in in this connection have you read this local quiet and then running? Are you familiar
with it? You know, my 50 years in America?
G
George Sverdrup 67:06
I think I did number of years ago I am but I--
C
Carl Chrislock 67:10
He's got some interesting reminiscences they're both about your, your grandfather and
your father. And he brings up one thing about your father. Now, that's way before your
time, of course. And maybe, maybe you didn't hear very much about it. But the the early
years of your father's service here at Augsburg says running and were were rather difficult.
He--There are other sources indicate that too, and there were many people who, who
apparently stood and live from him. He wasn't of course a graduate of Augsburg
seminary, phenomenal thing. And there was always this comparison with his father again.
And but to your father's credit, according to, to running, who I guess was around here
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 33 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
quite a bit he was away--
G
George Sverdrup 68:12
Oh yes.
C
Carl Chrislock 68:13
A congregation
G
Gerda Mortensen 68:15
For years,
C
Carl Chrislock 68:17
--he managed to win acceptance, you know, and I am. And running seems to suggest that
that was quite a feat. to win the trust and the confidence of many of these people, some
of these features be born up too easy here, you--
G
George Sverdrup 68:31
No, as I say, you have to know the constituency that latencies all style at all, and they
weren't about to be moved. No, no, I think this is true. But of course, and again, you see,
and this is to his credit, but he had the faculty of doing this or this he had with his mind.
But his personality, his philosophy of life, put this all together, given time. I only know it can
All of it and I'm sure there are many others that I don't need to persons. I know that as I
can remember home that the folks felt were kind of against that. And
G
Gerda Mortensen 69:18
They couldn't.
G
George Sverdrup 69:19
They didn't add to the extent of this. I don't believe that that's the only two that I know
where they probably fell to the floor. I felt they were kind of hard.
Carl Chrislock 69:30
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 34 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
C
Carl Chrislock 69:30
And did you have any any idea on the basis of this and now I think, I think we're aware of
this from from some of the sources that we have gone through. I what I would be curious
about was what the basis for for status discontent was, was it a nice thing I don't know
we've never discussed this was not going to become a part of
G
Gerda Mortensen 70:00
I think this was his phone personal regression. You know, he's this man's version of the
superior to him. He couldn't run any couldn't be as intimate friends and Slaton hit, you
know the unfortunate feeling of wanting to be big discussed with you know having
something like this to the President's avoidable group so that he could have an angle at,
at Amy against and hitting against Augsburg. We had it in our own family because Harold
was Ralph was married to her Helen. Harold was married to again and neither these men
could beso we separate some of this. But it's it's a kind of a of a kind of a compulsion to
want to be great. Yeah, there was something about him that never ran really true. And
funny you sound the mannerisms of a man all of a sudden away for I could never really
appreciate the new spiritual head.Although he was regarded as a great teacher, but this
was, like you said to
G
George Sverdrup 71:18
and I wasn't. I just picked it up from a little bit here. We're here that probably wasn't
supposed to be over, but you just you can't help but once in a while, and there was never
anything set against either of these versions.
G
Gerda Mortensen 71:33
Maybe something about this ruin business too.
G
Gerda Mortensen 71:35
And I just ran about that.
G
George Sverdrup 71:40
I don't know what it was. Well, on the on the specific issues? Of course, it would almost
seem I mean, if you did, there are always things back of the issues. Yeah, well, we can
terminate this soon. Now it does seem to me I suppose I have. I have my ideas and
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 35 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
commitments here to.
G
George Sverdrup 72:01
But it seems to me that that in 1923 was president of the Free Church
G
George Sverdrup 72:09
that, that he really did something that must have been very, very difficult to take. Because
if you consider the year 1923, there have been a rather difficult and delicate
transformation made of the school, the modern college program had gone through the
co-education have been adopted. And maybe I exaggerate the degree of opposition to
this from some of the organs, but there is no no. I don't know whether it was more vocal
and actual but it certainly was vocal enough. Well, what the Slaton doing is 1923 report, he
opens up all those old issues that supposedly had been settled and talked about how
dangerous the drift of Augsburg was, it was moving away from from its Presti scholar
foundations and
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:01
openness. I invited the young people because all the young people into the into meetings
and ideas. And they all spoke about invisible and the change.
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:11
Yeah, everything is bound to be cracked and broken. Well, I wonder if
G
George Sverdrup 73:17
this might not be it. But it seemed to me that there wasn't anything better calculated to
put the the, the output people in a better in a in a worse position than to resolve those
issues then, because they supposedly have been.
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:33
And then we sat around and had a collection and and somebody started and we were so
desperate here to make people even a free laughing and I pledged $100. And he said how
are you going to get it to sit you're going to school this and I'm going to work.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 36 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 73:49
So I've stayed $1,000 and
G
Gerda Mortensen 73:52
paid for my own?
G
George Sverdrup 73:56
No surface surface.
G
George Sverdrup 74:01
Business of the Rowan case that came about a year later, I think Rowan was a member of
the Board of Trustees. And for some reason, he went on a
G
George Sverdrup 74:13
on a one man campaign with a series of articles in how to blinded
G
George Sverdrup 74:20
calling for a faster pace towards modernization and August. And I don't think you know,
really, on the basis of the issues here that your father disagreed with him at all. It was my
way of doing it. Now this could be another way of doing it. You see he was posted the
situation. I'm probably more sensitive to this constituents, right as he was working in and
they said if you're going to get your way. Yeah, there's one other thing that I thought I
might mentioned before, but that might be of interest to you. Just Of course, yeah. And we
spoke of birth, it is a very cool to that. And there's one point where they disagree.
G
George Sverdrup 75:05
Only wanted no infringement and stuff told me this. He said
G
George Sverdrup 75:11
if he was always opinion that that was probably a little too lenient in some of the people
related seminary, he thought he probably wasn't as strict as he should have been in
clearing these people. In other words, he was more apt the man came in and pulled out he
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 37 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
called he is more apt to let them come in. And there was this. I mean, it was a big
contention. But this is one one difference between burka and breakfast, told me one night
he says the only thing he said, where we were on opposite sides of the fence. And I'm not
sure but maybe it was right. Well, it's pretty difficult. Because it is it's hard. It's people were
complaining to in those days about the fact that not enough people. That's right. This is
what you do. I mean, you you're caught in the middle here and it's
G
George Sverdrup 76:05
not an easy task.
G
George Sverdrup 76:08
Well, I wonder, you know, you've been very kind
76:14
and picked up something. Finally meeting. Yeah, I'll be right back again. These just keep
G
George Sverdrup 76:20
okay. I'd have to leave I think by 430 about
G
George Sverdrup 76:28
security I'm
G
George Sverdrup 76:32
going to say here
G
George Sverdrup 76:37
Yeah, I wanted to ask this to now maybe you wouldn't have any
G
George Sverdrup 76:44
any clear way of knowing this
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 38 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 76:48
maybe it's already been covered. Was there any any kind of a special relationship that
your father head with with other college presidents in the ass in the area? Yes, there was.
G
George Sverdrup 77:03
I think probably the one in the in the state that he admired the most, as I recall, was the
then president the sister was president of St. Catherine OI this could be verified I'm not
sort of seems to me the name of the sister and tone or something of this are yet a very
high regard for this one. Was he had a I think a high regard and I don't know the degree
of closeness Kaufman of the university
G
George Sverdrup 77:46
more with saying like remember president bowl stopping by the house?
G
George Sverdrup 77:52
I would say the one that
G
George Sverdrup 77:55
I was named name I recall and I think most that mother would see that presence St.
Catherine's
G
Gerda Mortensen 78:01
I think her name is sister and
G
George Sverdrup 78:02
on that could be sure that's a very high regard for this woman.
G
George Sverdrup 78:08
I would say that and Kaufman at one time and as I say I know he felt quite close to low
and of course we say feel quite close to this is a relatively young these are names these
are the names which have come to my mind. Yeah. Well, I think some of the
correspondence Paris is out to I think there was a pretty satisfactory relationship with with
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 39 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for a occasionally in the letters that were exchanged here, there'd be some, you know,
some sharing of problems and request for favors kind of interesting drainage depression.
And when curtailment had to take place on the faculty it would be a question of whether
the one hand any vacancies the other VNJ awfully tough time I'm just wondering if you
remember very much about the about his presidency during the during the Depression
period. The
79:11
the whole question of money
G
George Sverdrup 79:14
of course was a critical one for everybody but the the experts situation then and the
church current situation generally was pretty I know one year I don't know if it had been
the latter part of August the first part of September he had to go out into the
congregations and go out and I know for a fact that engaging went out in the fields of
rock the farmers you're trying to get a little money so they can buy coal to get started in
the fall because they just the money wasn't there. So he took that upon himself and this
was a very distasteful thing for him to do not that is dishonorable but it's just it's not a
very pleasant task to go out and asked for money to get school started in the fall because
it wasn't there and of course salaries long period time and you didn't get money yeah, no,
I know we live by the good graces of the mature and the literally by the good graces the
butcher and the grocer down here I mean the fact that they would carry us I mean
eventually get paid but the fact that they would carry us is the only reason we got and
once in a while if we were going to get closers on Daniel we could always go to Ross
Charles because there was a 10% discount for clergyman but as I say in money well I know
my mother went to work and substituted teaching and also my sisters for their piano
lessons buzzing ever is on ever here there was no complaints no and once in a while as I
suppose as in the case of local pastor two people would come into town and we get a
sack of potatoes or like member all band score to school in the fall the largest squash and
he grew his garden up by doing like was to have as a presidential squash and it came up
the ball and
G
George Sverdrup 81:26
this is a
Gerda Mortensen 81:28
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 40 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 81:28
OJ
G
George Sverdrup 81:36
you want to meet go again? You can duck them know you. But this went a long way for us
to say like you know passing a comment Sure. Fire looking down even usually chicken
right. Usually we get an hour wasn't the barely is that his turkeys or something?
Somebody?
G
Gerda Mortensen 81:56
Yes. Yeah. And the presidential
G
George Sverdrup 81:58
squash him just tell Amanda accidentally dropped at the rock the down the back hallway
in the hole in the steps to 710 in the back hall where I dropped.
G
George Sverdrup 82:11
Rambo was really gonna fix me that
G
George Sverdrup 82:14
the basement, it was all huge. All you can do is carry would take it in the basement and
throw it off and and drop it on the base of the floor. So he will drop it off. As always, he's
just you. But this went a long ways to us saying this in lieu of, of the hard times. And as I
said, like many local pastors, people will bring things into, you know, the show this in itself
is a great deal. You know, I'm sure
G
Gerda Mortensen 82:41
that's what they did to the past year.
G
George Sverdrup 82:42
Sure.
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 41 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 82:45
Ya know, there was something you said you to that maybe relates to what we talked
about before. And that is your your father's distaste for going out and asking for money.
Now we're seeing here that that fundraising as such, was not it was liking or were you
saying that? This particular kind of fundraising it was, you know, especially disagree, I
would say? I would say fundraising in general was not I should say he disliked this. But I
would say probably just type more than for instance, if there were a church wide drive,
and you're going out that local congregation to preach on Sunday about the schools, and
the preach about the new buildings. And getting it this way, I think would be less
objectionable if you're using his term. Yeah. But there's a sort of elements. I think we all
have you. I do you. You're not begging but you feel that you are in this. Yes. And you feel
you're imposing your presence on people. And there are some people have a knack of this.
Yeah, sure. It's fine. Their fundraisers. Yeah. But you have to have a somewhat different
personalities. He was not an extrovert. And he says, No, no, that's I guess that's exactly
what I was getting at now. I've often wondered if, if he were in his prime today, if he would,
you know, be able to meet all the requirements that a college president today supposedly
has to meet in order to be this extrovert type of?
G
George Sverdrup 84:30
I mean, I'm not detracting
G
George Sverdrup 84:31
No, no, I know. I know exactly what you're saying. And and I know the point of what you're
saying, I would say this. As far as on the campus, is administration and this sort of thing, I
think would be superb. I think if there would be a failing, he could meet the public and he
could get the respect of the public. However, it's a question whether he could meet, for
instance, today's businessman, you know, his level. Right, right. This I question, you know,
and I think that I think it is right to question is now maybe had he lived in this time, he
would have adapted to the philosophy as it has evolved. In those days, they had a
different corner, this is questionable. But in so far as in, because he was not fluent in so far.
I mean, his writings, he was not fluent as his father was. As a speaker, I really don't know.
Because at that age, I was no judge, but from hearing others, I don't think I think he was
profound. Whether he was an eloquent speaker or not, I'm not so certain. For instance, I
don't think he couldn't, he would not be a doctor Christmas and as a speaker. And of
course, you are, I think, in my estimation, but I don't think
George Sverdrup 85:54
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 42 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 85:54
I think on a personal basis, he would succeed very well. Yeah.
85:59
Well, I think I agree with you. And I think I would comment too, I'm
G
George Sverdrup 86:03
old, I'm old enough. A little older than you were I remember him as president here. He was
a very, I don't know, how you define eloquent. But he was a very effective speaker, he
wasn't the kind who, you know, would would with cater to, to certain kinds of tastes, you
know, you know, and and he didn't compromise some online? No, no, I don't know how he
would have been as an after dinner speaker at the Chamber of Commerce bank before
this is it I think, for instance, in lieu of our guarantee, said, and I have been told and heard
this many times to that an enemy he is a type of was the type of a person who would sit
back and let everybody else have their say. And then they have the ability to sum this up
and coming in and in with the punch line, so to speak. And this would be and people
would listen to him, because they respected his thought process sees in this sort of thing.
But this is an entirely different type of trade, than is that of an after dinner speaker there. I
think
G
Gerda Mortensen 87:09
he would not be
G
George Sverdrup 87:11
No, well, of course, here again, it depends on what you think college president should be.
Right? If you if you think you should be a person who can instill
G
George Sverdrup 87:21
the right kind of an atmosphere on on campus, that's one thing or if you think you should
just be a
G
George Sverdrup 87:27
representative off campus. That's another That's right. It's it's a it's a matter of, you know,
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 43 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
definition. And, of course, this varies, there can be something set for both sides. Sure. And
now in your grandfather's day, you know, I sort of get the impression that this record off
the team was rather ideal, because I don't think your grandfather was a great one, either
for going to Chamber of Commerce, or was fairly he was quite a fellow. He was quite
fluent, and more or less the Goliath man. That's right. People call the people who went in
the tradition, you know, refer to this as after school, because he was from the new No, I
think I think this is true. This is my impression to that he was much more this way. But in
your father's day, of course, you didn't have executive that team. somebody suggested to
me that anyone looking at the history of Oxford would have to consider the relationship
of say the president of the board of trustees to the President. Now, of course, this is pretty
relatively simple in the early years because after down was I think Chairman most of the
time the party trustees making
G
George Sverdrup 88:41
their money your father's time, it would have been very London who served between
Berlin and hammer. Do you know, our it was hammers did hammer succeed Brooklyn
directly? Brooklyn went off the board.
G
George Sverdrup 88:54
The at the annual meeting before his tragic death,
G
Gerda Mortensen 88:56
I think Yeah. Can I Adams hammer? Yes. Because hammer lived for quite a while.
G
George Sverdrup 89:02
Yeah. And then hammer died the same year as your father did, I believe? I don't think he
died in 37. But I wonder if you didn't go off the BART and hokum. I was gonna say, how
come was in there? Wasn't he somewhere? Yeah, yeah. I think he succeeded hammer. Yes.
G
George Sverdrup 89:19
And I don't think there was ever the relationship between help them.
G
George Sverdrup 89:24
Quite a different situation. When Of
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 44 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
George Sverdrup 89:28
course, that relationship wasn't so long in time, either. You know, I
G
Gerda Mortensen 89:30
know. I think the father had his, you know, a kind of many faceted relationship for certain
things. He went to hell. And for certain things, he went to marry limit for certain other
kinds of things. Horrible,
G
George Sverdrup 89:48
but he was here.
G
Gerda Mortensen 89:49
And then there was this, this close relationship of the former English speaking group at
Kennedy. In one way, he had kinda close relationship to Africa, and to Georgia. But it was
a personal one, and not an intellectual one. No, no, because there, they just didn't, they
just didn't make it. But then I think to that your father satisfying himself, just some
tremendous feeding of his own mind always, was never quite as lonesome.
G
George Sverdrup 90:25
No, I don't think.
G
Gerda Mortensen 90:27
But I can remember the day that he came into chapel and he said that this folk was dead.
Sit in my hometown, in Boston, for my people come from the mountains are all around this
beautiful little home, nestled in the right on the pure, and their mountains, their snow and
their skin, and how you don't see them, but they're always there. And somehow in the
death of a man, you see him and his personality, just simply silhouetted against the
flaming sky, and extends out with some new kind of meeting.
G
Gerda Mortensen 90:59
And even I have to talk about how to appreciate it.
Gerda Mortensen 91:03
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 45 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:03
And so there were things you see from a spiritual song, and sort of
G
George Sverdrup 91:08
glean from it
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:11
and barely from some of these other people, and I know that when he was going to go up
the last time that they were their hosts came along, and they came and stayed. And it was
kind of that special want existed between this because my father had loved your
grandfather so much, and the love of a feeling family, all these people and in the way you
see I feel as if I'm a child of this country church, in a certain sense your father felt this way
to
G
Gerda Mortensen 91:47
kind of belong to it because you were born into it.
G
George Sverdrup 91:50
Right I think this in a way is one reason why it's so very difficult for me
G
George Sverdrup 91:56
tremendously difficult.
G
George Sverdrup 92:00
There you and I think that your father and your grandfather being here today would have
done the same thing they would have been the mothers in this on this could well be sad to
see here again you see us know this side of it and I was too young too. So this I don't have
the opportunity. But I think it's wrong I don't mean no by letting them earlier it's not a
matter of right or wrong.
G
Gerda Mortensen 92:26
But I think for instance now that when when he corporate Nelson then Warren Clampett
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 46 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
for instance, read over the writings in December spoke of some of the descriptive and and
he Clifford Nelson came to that meeting of these translators and he was just simply so
excited he said one of these hyper relevant for today, they're written as if they were
tortured. And these are the things that we must have translated and published now and
this is what's going to happen
G
George Sverdrup 92:52
very definitely that was not wanting to say without his own little circle, no, no, no, no, no
and I think foresight
93:00
and then of course, he was put on that
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:04
what was called the AL seed immersion Western Conference right in the Board of Higher
Education over here together with JCK price it represented the loser college group. But I
can still remember he came back from Penn visit St. Louis, Concordia seminary there
Luther College and came back here and thank goodness we have respect to the
individual for the middle
G
George Sverdrup 93:32
Well,
93:33
yeah, this could be continued. We should let this keep running until all this is run on okay.
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:39
So I'll just let it run.
G
George Sverdrup 93:42
Okay, I don't think I should
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 47 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:47
have I have a meeting in the other room or I see so so I will be He just won't be holding
your here
G
Gerda Mortensen 93:52
No, they don't.
G
George Sverdrup 93:57
It gets better acquainted with you
G
George Sverdrup 94:04
Don't you ever call me but she pulled me out of the cold in over here one
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:10
little youngster he walked into that you know the man Oh
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:14
yeah, yeah, he was right down and I ran and picked him up in here carry the most was
G
George Sverdrup 94:22
flexing rocks you're gonna hit for
G
George Sverdrup 94:26
it wasn't Bry as I recall, my Sandy colon it has to be one that apparently they were going
to fail or something. Yes. Can you write it down anyway?
G
Gerda Mortensen 94:36
I just think I remember
RG 21.4.1967.06.07 Sverdrup III.mp3
Page 48 of 48
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKER... Show more
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:15AM
79:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, department, seminary, concern, fundamentalism, scripture, critical, questions, religion,
teaching, students, church, lutheran, college, method, approach, true, pastoral, fundamentalist,
influence
SPEAKERS
John Stensvaag, Gerda Mortensen, Paul Sonnack, Carl Chrislock, Phil Quanbeck
C
Carl Chrislock 00:00
I'm Carl Chris lock. And the purpose of this interview is really to probe the general
direction and taken by the Augsburg religion department roughly in the period since
World War Two. Now, for the sake of the centennial history, were very interested in this
probe proceeding on the premise that there have been some vital changes at Augsburg.
And we think of the are assuming that the religion department perhaps is one of the most
sensitive seismograph of that change. And we have these three men here because we feel
that due to their long association with the religion department that they are better
qualified than anyone else to answer questions and to reflect on it.
C
Carl Chrislock 01:23
I'll direct my first question at John Svenstaag. Now, you were here, and John, and both as
a professor in the seminary, and as a key member of the college religion department.
Now, in serving in this double function, did you distinguish between your goals as seminary
teacher, and member of the college religion department?
J
John Stensvaag 01:58
Yes, I think I did. I think I conceived of my task in the college, I was teaching freshman, you
know, to be that have to be pastoral, helping these young people who are just come out of
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 1 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
high school, into the college, into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures, and with
the aim of helping them to see the the gospel and helping them to see the message of the
Scripture, hopefully, to deepen them in their faith, and to help others towards committing
to the faith in the seminary, I think I thought of my task, rather, along more academic lines,
to, to help them into an understanding of the Scriptures and historical process to which
the scriptures came in to be incorporating them the findings of a more recent studies over
the scriptures, including the critical and liberal, so called liberal approach to the
scriptures. Maybe I should say that I started teaching in the seminary or in the college in
1946. And that, as I began teaching, it wasn't a certain setting. And I think of Si Melby, who
was teaching, basic Bible, you know, up until his death, in about 44, I think, or somewhere
in there. And naturally, I influenced a good deal by his concept of the tasking, and his way
of teaching the scriptures and so on. So there was a carryover from that period, to, to
Mine and Ours. And, and the teaching of the basic Bible that we did was basically to lead
them into a knowledge of the content of the Scriptures without raising a lot of questions,
critical questions, and so on that you would raise, perhaps in the seminary.
C
Carl Chrislock 04:41
I don't know whether this is Carl speaking. I don't know whether we will be promoting a
confrontation here or not. But would feel I'd like to have you comment on what John said,
in terms of what you were trying to do is in its chairman of the mission
P
Phil Quanbeck 05:00
Ah, Phil Quanbeck I think that, that I'd like to say that the concern of the, of the
department during the time that I was here, in some sense, was, in probably in a rather
fundamental sense, was influenced again, by Johnston's fog, who'd been my teacher in
seminary. I think that the pastoral concern still obtained when I first began, and I would
like to think that it's still still obtains still exists. But I think that a pastoral concern always
manifests itself in a particular historical situation. And that, that the pastoral concern, as
it was evidenced when I was a student in the college, would really, and I never had you as,
as a as a student. But I think that that, that the sort of concern that was manifest in the
courses that I didn't have in college, would really not be available today. Because the the
sort of student that we have, the student that comes to us has, I think, and I'm, I might be
wrong, but I think has to be encountered in a different way. Today, from what from the
way in which he was encountered during my tenure in as a student in college.
06:49
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 2 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
So I think that the pastoral concern, I would prefer to think is still present. The degree to
which its present, the character of its presence, I think, is is a matter of about which there
may be legitimate the discussion and debate.
P
Paul Sonnack 07:20
This is Paul Sonnack, I'd like to just pick up a comment and, and what Phil is just finished
saying, in trying to reflect my own experience, it is, you know, maybe, maybe what's
happened in the religion department is that we have tried in a responsible fashion to be
responsive to the students that we've had. I started teaching at Augsburg in 1949. And I
can't date this, you know, in any precise terms. But I think the first years that I spent here,
as a teacher made clear that then the main problem is it that I had to face as a teacher in
relation to the students was not really to commend the Christian faith to them so much. I
think I did that. But I thought my problem was rather to try to open them up to the world,
so that they could read try to relate the affirmations of the faith that allow them just took
for granted to what was going on in society, for example, I think in the most recent years
that I spent at Augsburg, the problem had really become quite reverse. I can no longer
take for granted kind of the commitment or of the students to a Christian view, but rather
really a radical questioning. They were open to the world. I don't know they've been made
that way. But they were and the questions that they were asking, really had to do with the
with the viability of Christian faith as a religious alternative in the 20th century. Now, I
think, you know, if a teacher tries to be responsive to his students, that, that those issues
somehow become quite clear. And maybe This accounts for some of the though the way
in which the religion department is trying to respond to this.
C
Carl Chrislock 09:32
Any Any further commentsalong the line that
J
John Stensvaag 09:40
I think that's, there's a lot of truth in that. And sometimes you're not conscious, necessarily
right at the moment, or what's happening, you know, but I think there is, that's true, what
Paul says it, that the students are changing as they come in, they come in with different
different presuppositions, you know, and different questions and so on, and you have to
try to be responsive to that. But I'm wondering if today, you know, we we need not kind of
to go back, not necessarily in a way we did it, but we need to go back and help them as
I'm sure you're doing, to, to see the Christian religion as an exciting thing as a, as a
challenging thing. So that they be gripped by it again, you know, because I think is right,
as Paul says, we tend to that the seminary, now they come there, and they don't want to
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 3 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
study theology, they want to just study sociology. They don't want to study theology or, or
anything that goes with it. They don't want to study the Bible so much as as they just want
to know how to relate to the civil disorders, and all of that that's going on, how does it
relate to the black community and all of this. So now our battle is to help them to see
again, the relevance of the gospel and the wonder of the car, how that gospel really is
basic to, to society and to what we're trying to do for society.
J
John Stensvaag 11:10
But in the process, I think we need to get back to the Scriptures again, and and help them
into real knowledge of the Scriptures. Not necessarily in the way we did it before. Because
the situation has changed that I fail. Yes, I think that
P
Phil Quanbeck 11:34
I don't know how important this kind of it is. But I think that there is a sense in which that
Paul and I as, as your students, when you were a professor in the seminary, were really
strongly influenced by your teaching, and by the critical method that you introduced. And
I think that, that the development of the critical method in in courses in the college was
was a necessary development in any case, what have happened in any case at all. But I
think that the sort of background that I at least understand myself to have gotten
provided me with the, with the understanding, to do this really freely, you know, and
without being intimidated or, or bound in terms of the understanding of the tradition.
C
Carl Chrislock 12:38
Carl, again, john, a few moments ago, you talked about having been influenced by J.
Sigurd Melby, Si Melby in your as your predecessor. Now, perhaps this is getting off the
track that we were on? hope we can get back on it again. But I'm wondering if if you could
just make a few comments about maybe about his approach about how he taught
religion courses about how he conducted the religion department. I believe he was
chairman until 1937. I'm interested in that I've already handled him but I haven't handled
that aspect of it.
J
John Stensvaag 13:35
Well, he was primarily a Bible teacher, you know. I suppose he taught a few other courses. I
didn't have any other courses from him then in Bible courses. Hi. Wow. Yeah, that was not
in this in the religion department. He taught American history in college. Sure. But I think
his his concern was to to make the Bible alive. And I think he had a knack for teaching the
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 4 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Bible, he had a knack for making the Bible come alive, you know. And, and for us at that
time, I think this was very helpful and good. But I'm not, I don't think that his particular
method would necessarily appeal to young people today. The way he outline the
Scripture, and so on, he didn't raise any other critical questions at all. I can't remember
that in any way. He, he confronted us with these questions. You know, it was Bible content
that he was after and making the Bible alive. And he hadn't been dualistic approach to it.
Not only evangelistic, but nurture and evangelism kind of went hand in hand as he as he
did his work. And this was sort of that ethos out of which we then came and began to
teach
P
Phil Quanbeck 15:23
in this in this common doesn't have anything to do with Simon LB. But I want to make it in
the light of certain other things that we've said, I, I think that it would be true to St. JOHN,
that. And you mentioned this earlier, Paul, but the the Department of religion wanted its
courses to be academically responsible, and that whatever else they were, they weren't
intended simply to be religious experiences.They were intended to
requireacademicexcellence. They were intended to require intellectual reflection, so that it
wasn't simply, you know, kind of a non academic perspective. And I would guess that was
characteristic of the time that you began to teach in the college and I think
P
Paul Sonnack 16:26
This is Sonnack .You know, john, this is very interesting. I guess I've never heard you say
some of these things before. And as phila said, both he and I, I think I've been influenced
by you. A great deal more than you would like, perhaps to admit. But I, you know, you
mentioned that, that Simon LB was a man with that deep pastoral concern, and that he
was a Bible teacher that he made the Bible Come on live. Now, you know, when I reflect
on what happened to me in the Old Testament sequence in in the seminary, was that
really, for the first time, by the use of these critical methods? The Bible did, the Old
Testament really did come alive, like it never had before. And I think in other words, did
you were able to combine in a really remarkable fashion, and a genuine evangelical
thrust, the past pastoral concern, and yet to employ critical methods of the Bible in such a
way that in the study of the Bible, is it the way that they never really stood in the way of
this, but really were a means of communicating precisely this. And then I think, Carl, that
it's obvious here that there are some real a continuity in the in the department of religion,
from the time was 10, flags to Quebec, that I really like to argue, I think that the pastoral
concern has been a very, very powerful motive in, in the work of the department, and all
the methods employed, may have changed, you know, the adoption of, frankly, a critical
approach to the scripture now being suggested to college students, that those changes
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 5 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have come about, not at the price of a past or concern, I think I'd be willing to argue that,
at one point, we felt that it was absolutely necessary for the sake of manifesting pastor
concern that these methods be adapted. I don't know what you want to make out of that.
But I think, you know, there's there's continuity, and there is change. But I think both are
terribly important here.
C
Carl Chrislock 19:16
I think I want to direct this is john, this is right along the same lines. And do you think when
you and I were students here together, that there was among the students are in the
religion department? Any great fear of approaching these critical concerns are
approaching these these problems, you see, biblical research? And you know that, I don't
know if I'm getting across the point of the question.
J
John Stensvaag 19:50
Well, Stensvaag again, I don't know if there was any, any real fair, but it just, it just was one
of the pressing questions at the time. When you and I first came here, it wasn't actually till
I had gone away to graduate school, that all this came home to me, because the way it
was taught both in the college and the seminary here, started was a very great teacher,
but he was very cautious. When it came to the employment of the modern, critical
methods, this historical approach to the Scripture, that was almost non existent, really,
here in the seminary at the time, was only after going away, that this whole new world
opened up for me, I was very thankful for the teaching I had from start up, that's a very
great teacher. And I know now and I think back that he was aware of these issues, but he
has, as I said, was very cautious and didn't, didn't really enter in on this. So whether this,
that we were that there was any problem or that we were fearful of anything, I don't think
this was so it's only that we hadn't become a live to it, we hadn't really become alert to
this whole world. I think. So that that did come later it for me anyway. And I as I look back
now, I think that I wasn't responsive enough for a period of time to what was happening in
the college community. This is my feeling as I look back now that I stayed at two too long
at a certain level and didn't really respond to what was going on sufficiently. I didn't have
those fears in the seminary. But I think I had some fears in the College of disturbing the
faith and so on. And I think, as I look back on today that this was not the wisest approach.
Now, there are ways and ways of doing it. I think that with a pastoral concern, you want to
do it in such a way that you just don't leave them up in the air, you know, and just shoot
their faith to pieces and leave it there. I think you have to do it in such a way that, that
you are helping them into a new understanding, not without not in the process, destroying
the foundations of their faith.
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 6 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 22:35
And I'm not saying that's being done, but that's the tension you're in and trying to keep
the one and yet introduce each other. So as what Phil says, I think it's true that there is a
kind of nudity or pastoral concern, but in a new day, you have to express it in a new in a
new way. That's true. Yes,
P
Phil Quanbeck 23:02
I think that it might be true to say that the circumstance in which the Augsburg religion
department, or the Augsburg community in the 30s found itself was really of one sort with
other Lutheran colleges. I think that it was that the sort of religious instruction that one
done, and I speak, I think, from a great deal of ignorance here, but I have my impression is
that the sort of religious instruction that went on at St. Olaf was was not unlike that which
went on. It will be interesting to know if the cocoon you know if the movement didn't
happen as as soon at Augsburg as at some other places.
J
John Stensvaag 24:01
earlier [indecipherable]
C
Carl Chrislock 24:07
All right. You both said you're both agree that it happened earlier are required it
happened earlier. And Oxburgh any of you kind of tackle that? Is it the influence of the
tradition? Or was it the influence of
P
Paul Sonnack 24:22
I remember, I did pass on like I remember when I was when I first started teaching here at
Augsburg that Oh, Martin Hagglund and Theodore Hogan, Vic and those boys were still
teaching on itself. They were the big guns, and they were publishing books. You know, and
I read their stuff. And I thought it is for the birds, you know, good enough for saying, oh,
but not for deer logs. But I you know, I think there was a kind of a structure structured
thing, that these men were really concerned to lay on the student. Now, I don't I never felt
that that was really the case here at Augsburg. JOHN, what do you think about that?
J
John Stensvaag 25:14
I hope that I hope that's true that that we were in a way they have on guard here. Because
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 7 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I know what you mean, I remember Phil WX books, you know, on on the Old Testament, he
had a series of books on the Old Testament how I reacted negatively against this kind of
fossilized approach, complete unawareness of the critical method. And all of these, you
know, insisting on the mosaic authorship of all of the pen, a token all of that which we had
long since you might say abandoned. So I I hope it is true that we were not just in step, but
that we were a bit ahead. And I think that's it knew was true in the seminary, and therefore
it would spill over into the college too.
J
John Stensvaag 26:11
Yes, I think the climate was for your I definitely think so that there was a permissiveness
here that allowed this development sooner than happen in some of the other places
sooner than happen at Luther, for example. And Warren clambake who studied both
places, kind of a contemporary a man, you know, he found a much more openness here,
which was partly Dr. Swear to contribution, even though swelled up, as I said, didn't get in
on this. He he kind of opened the door by his way of teaching. Yes, he didn't. Yeah, Gerda
raised the question about Dr. Christensen's influence, and I didn't have him for a religion
teacher in college. So I couldn't say much about that in a seminary. We had him for a
short time before he became president. But he was a kind of a liberated spirit. It's true.
Although he he didn't, as far as I can tell, enter very much into this. This aspect, the more
historical and critical approach to Scripture. For him to the the thrust was nurture and
evangelism. As far as I remember.
G
Gerda Mortensen 27:47
This is Gerda Mortensen. Now I had many students come in to talk to me. During many of
these years, we had just gone through a war period regrowing after a war period. We were
in a metropolitan city. We had the leadership and the students came in said, I get the help
from Dr. Johnson spoke. Another one says, I get the help from Paul Sonic. I go, and here I
am a senior now. And I've gone through all this area of knowledge. And I get into that
class with Paul sack. And somehow he helps me think through all the issues in relationship
to life. And I just feel that now I I'm sort of orient the living again. And so I think that these
were some of the great things which happened. And both john and Paul were
tremendously influential in this because each student was an individual. And they would
go to one or the other of those that really wanted to help them. And and they found help.
And there was students who came and said, Ted, and the pastoral care idea. Today, I
found Christ in parks on its place, or today, I found Christ in Johnson.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:17
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 8 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
JOHN, you mentioned George Sverdup and the openness, the non explicit reference to the
critical methods. Now, I never had you as a teacher in college, and then the college lives
and of course, at least that I remember.
P
Phil Quanbeck 29:46
But I think that it would be true to say that even though you're interested in, in getting
across the content of the Bible, and in the not interested in talking about the, the the
critical methods, there are is your suggested a couple of ways of doing that. And one of
the ways is to do it with a with a background which presupposes, you know, the mosaic
authorship of the pinner to a certain understanding of the Bible. And there's another way
that simply presupposes an openness. And I think that that's what was going on in in that
decade. I don't know, because, but I have a suspicion that that was the case. And then
when I became a teacher here in 57, Bernard Christensen wasn't teaching in the
department or anything, he was engaged in administration, that was his job. But I think
that it's true to say that, neither you, nor he directed the way that I should teach. And I'm
sure that you enjoyed all sorts of criticism. And that you probably both you and he got
letters during that time, but did not really impose the burden of those letters on the
members of the department. And I think that that's the kind of openness that was going
on.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:18
Speaking, we've had many other testimonials to that openness, Mrs. Lindemann in
particular, valued a great deal. It was something that she didn't expect when she first
came here. And she she stayed, of course, much more than the three months, some of our
friends predicted that you would. Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 31:41
All right.
C
Carl Chrislock 31:45
These things here, speak up. I was, I was interested in your comments, john, about Bernard
Christensen. Now, I never had his courses in philosophy that I think it's a matter of regret.
But I I recall his handling of that one quarter of freshman orientation. And that opened up
a great many things for me, and I think, was a very liberating experience. You remember,
he took up the evolution issue in science, and I was really surprised at the time that that
we could get that much liberation here. I hadn't expected that, because the, the, the views
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 9 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
some on evolution that I had heard and my own church and or led me to believe that this
was something you should really stay away from. And I'm, I'm wondering if on the basis of
some correspondence that I've seen, too, if more than he ever vowed if Brennan
Christmas and didn't feel like one of his functions here was to liberate people from some
of these hang ups. I mean, when he came here as a teacher in in 1930, you know, to make
them confront the, the world and its issues not to, of course, throw away the Christian
faith, but to do it within the context of the Christian faith. Do you do you have any any
any comments on that? Any further comments on that?
J
John Stensvaag 33:40
Stensvaag again. I don't really, it certainly is true, what you say about the orientation
course, where he talked about science and all of this, that this was the textbook itself, I
think was quite a contribution using that kind of a textbook. I'm only saying that in the
courses that I'm aware of. When it came to Scripture, he did not raise these critical
questions that we are raising. But then I think we ought to say to that some of the
questions that are being raised now we're not even in view at the time. Read Alex Jones,
kiss Schecter, you know, and form gearshift, and, and all of this, this hadn't even been
raised, or you couldn't expect, you know, that this should be be there at the time. And I
would say As for myself, I regret very much that I had such a poor background and New
Testament studies.
J
John Stensvaag 34:47
Because here at the seminary, it, it was just pitiful, really. And when I went away to to
graduate work, I did an Old Testament and New Testament was pretty much neglected, I
ordered some courses. So I'm but I said, look back now I feel that I would have been a
much better teacher in the college if I had had a better orientation and New Testament
studies. Because when I, when I taught the Old Testament in religion classes, then I did
introduce these critical things, the source theories JENP, and so on, I started talking about
that from the very beginning, when it came to the Old Testament, and the fact that some
of the material was perhaps secondary, and how we must understand Genesis one, not in
a literalist way and all that. But when it came to the New Testament, I was not really
aware enough of what was going on at the time to do the kind of work with the New
Testament material that I feel now that I ought to have done.
P
Paul Sonnack 35:55
Okay, this is an academic a comment, really trying be responsive to the question that
Terry raised a while back. She was wondering, you know, what was there about the
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 10 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
situation here that allowed this, this sort of freedom to handle the materials came out?
When I'm probably just putting in a pitch, but I wonder if it can't, if it can't be said that,
that the artist tradition in which Augsburg stood really made possible, that sort of
freedom to approach this even the study of the Scriptures if from a critical standpoint?
Yeah, I'd be very interested to hear what what john has to say about that. I don't know
whether that's an accurate analysis or not. But it seems to me that, that, that pirate his
movement did not insist upon adherence to explicit propositions or affirmations. But it
insisted upon the life of faith itself, which can be expressed in all different kinds of way in a
kind of freedom about doing that, john, if you got any comments on it?
J
John Stensvaag 37:25
Well, that may be true, Paul, as your story and and you, you can see this more clearly than
I can. But I have to confess that I came out of a very fundamentalist kind of patriotism,
which I think was true of many of our churches, at the time I came out of a scene was
constant out of the church there. And my background, was pretty much fundamentalist
thinking of the Scripture as literally inspired and to be literally understood, and so on. And
it, I think, that characterized many of our churches. But at the same time, it certainly is
true. And here, Dr. Christensen made a fine contribution that stayed away from this, at
least here at the seminary and in a college stayed away from this fundamentalist stick
approach from the very beginning. This is where I was helped a great deal in my college
year, got away from that, and, and from this attempt on the part of men to to say just how
the scripture were inspired just how inspiration must be understood, and Dr. Christensen
helped a great deal on that, that we don't want to get so hung up in the method of
inspiration and all of that, that we that we lose the sword of the Spirit, as he put it that
that that the word no longer is allowed to speak for itself. And I should say that Dr.
Norberg helped a great deal here. He was here for a short time, but he came. And now as I
think back upon it, he for me was sort of the beginning of opening up the door, because he
taught Genesis here one year after sort of was, was passed away, and coming out of
Norway, and so on, which was safe, you know, conservative, still, he was able to approach
this in a very different way. And which helped a great deal. And he also talked to a good
deal of abandoned and freedom. And I remember one of the lectures he gave, and that's
a long time ago now. But he kept emphasizing that for us, as Angelica goes, the right
approach was to listen to Scripture, what the scripture said, what was in the Scripture, and
not come with a pre formed notion of what the scripture was, and what the scripture said,
you know, so that there was an openness to Scripture. And I think this helped a great deal.
For me, and I'm sure it helped for a lot of other people. This partly accounts for this.
P
Paul Sonnack 40:02
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 11 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
I think, Carl, that that makes my point really quite clear. And that is that john Augsburg
somehow was different from Racine. See, what you found here was not a spirit of
fundamentalism. But there was a warm spirit of pirate ism, in which you and others like
you had the liberty to, to let the Scriptures speak for themselves and the internet
necessitated the employment of historical literary methods, critical methods of studying
the Bible, that was something that was permissible.
P
Phil Quanbeck 40:45
This is another comment along this film, one MC, that this is another common along the
same line. I think that if, you know in my encounter with a critical method in Johnston
songs Old Testament course in the penta to the historical books, if that wasn't radically
upsetting part of it part of that. The explanation that lies in the fact that I don't recall, for
example, in my home, ever might ever being told that Moses wrote, or ever being afflicted
with a discourse on inspiration. I think that that was I'm sure there were fundamental
mystic direct characteristics that were present. But I think that that's an aspect that the
problem is was quite important in in my own life.
C
Carl Chrislock 41:49
When you're talking about this, sometime when you men over in the archives, I'll have to
dig up some of the correspondence between father and son. Yeah. There's the most
interesting exchange between George SkyDrive. He invariably wrote to his father in
English, that's interesting. His father wrote back in Norwegian, when he first enrolled at
Yale. Now at DAO, he had a rather very a gated program, of course, this and one of the
courses that he had gotten into frighten him a little bit involved the critical method, I think
it was Old Testament, I don't know anything about the AIDS orientation in 19. Two, and I
don't really understand the issues involved here. But at any rate, he wrote home, and was
concerned, he was cautious about it. And it was very interesting, the comment that his
father wrote back, I think I'm representing it correctly here, he said that, that this whole
question of inspiration is a very difficult one, it advanced, small, he didn't want to take any
particular view, he wanted to remain open on it. And then at the same time, he added to
kind of a caveat that you could just, you know, a critically analyze the scriptures to death,
you would lose their their, they would lose their meaning if if if the only thing you did to
them was to subject them to a critical anatomy, even though critical scholarship had its
place. I think this essentially is what he said. Now, that brings up another question here to
you were talking about this, when you were saying that these were some of these
questions, you know, with respect to the Scriptures, were not pressing questions. You
mean, in the Oxford community? They certainly had been pressing questions in the
American church community, generally, for much longer than that hadn't they?
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 12 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 44:03
Stensvaag the Lutherans. So we're slow, I think to get involved in this. They were Johnny
come lately. So when it came to this, and therefore I think, in our setting in our community,
these questions had not yet become vital, you know, pressing.
P
Phil Quanbeck 44:28
Again, I feel Quanbeck, again, speaking from modest amount of ignorance, I think that
might be asserted that, that these problems really didn't emerge in Lutheranism until the
decade of the 50s.
P
Paul Sonnack 44:46
I remember that. I don't know where this fits cow. But I think he does some wrong, I
remember when I was pulled out of a parish in northern Minnesota and sent down to that
God, this joint call the University of Chicago, you know, and I was exposed there to all this.
This critical method. You know, I think the only place where I had any comfort, any kind of
security was in Old Testament studies. Nowhere else and I think that what that experience
really meant for me, me, it's it really saved my life. At that moment, it really did. And I
think that what that experience meant for me was simply that, that if a person is going to
be a responsible teacher here in the 20th century, you must never hide that kind of stuff.
Because it's, it's it's going to appear sooner or later. So that I think I came to the
conviction that if I were to manifest any kind of religious concerns for my students, I
wouldn't Yes, I would precisely have to adopt critical methods just for that reason. I don't
know where that fits, but it I think it does.
C
Carl Chrislock 46:09
Well, it certainly does. Now, I'd like to go back a little here to unless there's somebody who
has any comments on this. I'm wondering if any of you gentlemen, in your experience, in
your experience within the religion department ever encountered, you know, any difficulty
or any? Well, let me back up just a little bit and say a while ago, it was postulated that
there was kind of a difference between the fundamentalism of Racine or the
fundamentalism one Domingo, for that matter, and the openness that you had here. Now
did, did that difference ever come to open confrontation? create any
P
Phil Quanbeck 47:00
Quanbeck: That's a surprise is...never. [laughing] It did happen, Carl, but in the year of our
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 13 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Lord 1960, was it that some of the things that the Department of religion had been doing,
and I think some of the things that it really had been doing for quite a while, came to
some visibility. I think some negative visibility, particularly through the creative work of
one of the members of the Luther and free church. And yes, that's right. That's right. I think
the No, I think that that's true, though, that the man who raised the question was, is, is a
man who whose roots didn't that didn't go back isn't to say that there weren't people like
him in the open Free Church, but at least in this particular instance. And we had a
discussion I think in, in Oak Grove Lutheran Church, I don't remember the exact date. But
certain criticisms of the department had been written down and the level that the
department and a number of people in the department then went to Oprah, one
afternoon, Oak Grove Lutheran Church, and we talked about some of the issues, we
thought we talked about some of the issues involved. I think that the, the issues between
the people who were raised them and the department were not solved. But I think that
there was a sense in which the visibility, the openness, which that confrontation brought
about was basically a good thing for the department. And I would, this is just kind of
guessing. But I would guess that it was good for not only for the Augsburg department of
religion, but for departments of religion at other Lutheran colleges as well. But that's only I
guess, there's nothing substantive to back that up.
C
Carl Chrislock 49:53
Chrislock speaking, I think we have a full transcript of that meeting down in the archives.
And I was wondering if you had any evidence of being good? Or having the having had
the benefits and effect on other religion departments? Did you get any any reactions from
any members of other religion departments on this? Do either of the rest of you want to
comment on on this general question? You know, it has seemed to me or did seem to me
that. I wondered, sometimes. I think I wondered about this a little when I was a student.
And I want and I've certainly wondered, since if, if we've always been courageous enough
in, in, in presenting our openness. You know, there seems to me there's such a lag between
there has been such a lag between college and congregation here in this regard. I don't
know if, if this makes sense or not, you know, on some of these issues.
J
John Stensvaag 51:16
Let me just say one thing. This is a something that has been told me again and again, that
our pastors after the merger with the American Lutheran Church in 1963, got involved in
some of the discussions about the Word of God, here and there. And they were surprised.
These men have told me that number of pastors, they were surprised at the kind of
fundamentalism that they encountered in some of the pastors of the same vintage, you
know, who had come from other seminaries like capital and Luther, who we're still
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 14 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
troubled by some of the questions, which to our pastors, we're not problems and we're not
troublesome. So that the Lutherans alert and that group, you know, these real Am I say,
fundamentalists in approach to Scripture, anyway, they did not represent the men came
coming out of Augsburg and Augsburg seminary. Our men had really encountered this
and come to terms with it. And we're not troubled by questions which are very disturbing
to some of the other pastors of the same age.
P
Phil Quanbeck 52:49
Phil, would it be true to say, Jen, that that also, with regard to the association, that though
the larger number of pastors in the group in these Association, we're we're not to pastors
who would come out, let's say from 45. And then, would you?
J
John Stensvaag 53:16
Yes, I think that's absolutely true. You look at the at the man. Now, there are a few
younger man, like snips, dude, but he is a graduate of Saskatoon seminary, and not a
graduate of our expert seminary. And apart from that, john strand, graduated from the
seminary. I think the first year I was back here teaching. Right your ground? Yeah. And now
he started with an exception. He sort of an exception, I think
P
Paul Sonnack 53:58
you're racing currently pause how you're raising house question. Again. I've kind of been
mulling this over my mind. I don't really know how to answer it tomorrow. But I think
there's something to what you are suggesting. Namely, this that here at Augsburg, both in
college and seminary there was sort of freedom in relation to critical questions. But that
some of the congregation's in the Lutheran Free Church really didn't manifest that same
sort of spirit. Is that the kind of thing you're after? Now, I'm not really sure that I that I
know the answer to that. But I suspect that a great many of the other congregations in
the Free Church had felt the influence of the whole fundamentalist movement in
American Protestantism. And I think some of the difficulty with our friend out at Oak
Grove was the fact that in his theological poverty, he tended to identify a fundamentalist
position with Lutheran orthodoxy. And he thought, therefore, that, that he was being able
to impugn what the department was doing from the point of view of Lucien orthodoxy.
And that's the that's the irony of the situation. I I interpreted, the department is really
manifesting here in this way, a Lutheran concern for the gospel, then we had a
fundamentalist, you know, impugning us for being heretics, when almost really precisely
the opposite was, was the case. Now, you know, I'm just guessing here, I don't I don't really
know, I think that there was some distance and not in every case. Now Phil has eluded due
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 15 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
to the fact that it was not the case in his home, I can testify to the fact that it was never
the case in my home, that that attention was called to certain prohibitions in thought and
so on. But But I think that fundamentalism did have something to say about the attitude
of a great many people in Lutheran congregations, you know, think of the great influence,
for example, the Moody Bible Institute and and parishes here in the in the Lutheran Free
Church Midwest. Well, does that. Does that move in the direction? Yeah.
J
John Stensvaag 56:42
Quality when you say Lutheran orthodoxy, you're a historian, but I think Lutheran
orthodoxy tended to move in the direction of fundamentalism. Luther, himself was an
open spirit, you know, but I think after him, there came kind of a rigid, rigid kind of
approach to Scripture, which go out found a real response in fundamentalism, there came
to be a closeness between this kind of rigid orthodoxy that develop in the period after
Luther. But Luther himself obviously, would be a kindred spirit to this approach that we're
talking about.
P
Paul Sonnack 57:36
Well, let's listen. Let's be careful about those euro Puritans, you know, I don't want to
nitpick here. And I'm maybe the use of the word Orthodoxy is not important, though I
myself think that there's a vast difference between even 17th century Lutheran orthodoxy
and fundamentalism, really. But would you in general, would you agree with the point to
where the where the abstract that that fundamentalism did make its inroads and new
features congregations?
P
Phil Quanbeck 58:09
I think that the influence was, was felt, feel Coinbase the influence was felt via VA Moody
Bible Institute and via fundamentalist stick radio preachers, because that's the easiest
way to proclaim, and I think that is and radio and they would it be right to say the easiest
way to get monetary response from your listeners?
P
Paul Sonnack 58:54
You know, to make a theological point, I think that basic difference is that, that
Lutheranism has always recognized the priority of the gospel. And I think that
fundamentalism really has tried to approach an understanding of Christian religion,
really, in terms of law. That is to say, Christianity must be understood in terms of some
fundamental propositions which are unalienable and which have to be accepted. And
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 16 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
that's got the force of law, not the force that gospel behind it. That's why I think there's a
difference between Lutheranism and fundamentalism. Even listen orthodoxy on
orthodoxy. God bless.
C
Carl Chrislock 60:00
You know, I've been Chris, like speaking, I've been very, and this is, I guess, aside from
anything that will concern within the history that is directly but I think somebody else with,
you know, with good theological grounding, would find the study of past persons
editorials and talk about it through the 20s pretty rewarding, because I think that talk
about it in the 20s, reflects the fact that fundamentalism was having an impact in certain
areas of the Lutheran Free Church. I think he was aware of this. And I think in certain
respects, he was trying to counter it. He had some very interesting editorials there he, he
had one editorial, for example, on modernism, he was wanting his reader that is readers
that this term was being thrown around entirely too, too easily, because he, he talked
about that there were some religious understandings that were had a liberal mutability
about them, you see, and cited some examples. Inside of the case of poverty, this was
much less inevitable today than it had been regarded before. And that, generally is
century before theologians had defended slavery. And on the evolution question, he, of
course, was during the scopes trial, he was very sympathetic to Brian, it has to be said, but
every time he mentioned, Brian, he would add the caveat that he thought he was crazy on
his notion of inspiration,
J
John Stensvaag 61:36
you know, [tape breaks in recording]
P
Paul Sonnack 61:47
testing One, two, testing 123,
J
John Stensvaag 61:56
Free Church didn't grow their couple of pastors and right. Wow, there was a resolution.
C
Carl Chrislock 62:22
Well, where do we go from here?
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 17 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
P
Paul Sonnack 62:26
You know, there's another about both continuity and change in the department of religion
in terms of the adoption of critical method of studying the scriptures and so on. Would
there be any sense in exploring that theme of continuity and, and change with respect to
a view of the church's involvement in, in society?
C
Carl Chrislock 62:56
Yes, go ahead.
J
John Stensvaag 62:59
What do you mean, go ahead, explore?Well, I'd like to hear john SJ something about this. I
know Carla GU developed some views about, about the concerns of sweat dripping off
the dial in this regard. And I think that there has been a kind of a continuity of emphasis
here all the way through. I know when I when I came to Australia as a student in 1938, one
of the first guys I ran up against was that Joel Carstensen, who was teaching here at this
time, and he began right then and there to open up for me and brand new world entirely.
I'm not sure, however, that that concern was, at that time reflected in the religion
department. JOHN, what do you think?
J
John Stensvaag 63:55
I think that's probably right. And I was trying to think of the course that you taught when
you first started, it was something about Christianity and the world or I don't remember
exactly. But I think Christian faith in the modern world well, but that was the kind of a
beginning of breaking into this. So that I think, Paul, in many ways, translated part of this
heritage into a concern expressed in the religion department, which I think until that time
had been muted, if not absent, which we can see from looking, I think, at the offerings in
the religion department. The first year, we had basic Bible, the second year, second
quarter, it was church history. And I don't remember comparative religion. missionary
enterprise, but but the mission, our enterprise was foreign mission enterprise. And and I
don't think there was anything there explicitly, at least, which related the Christian gospel
to the world today, which Paul, I think began to do.
C
Carl Chrislock 65:20
Well, this is a very interesting theme to Chris, like speaking, to explore, you know, through
the whole history of the college is something that I'm, I'm very interested in, you find that
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 18 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
one strategy when after I first came here, they certainly gave the impression of wanting to
be involved in wanting to take responsibility in the broadest way. I don't have any other
quotes here. But I think one thing that could be cited is the early history of focus on it. And
that was first public in 1877, as a means of helping the great fund drive of that year. And I
think it was discovered that after Don had such a flair for being a journalist, that it was
taken up again, and he took it up with swagger. And I've been through the files of folks,
when they were joined editors, from about 1779 to 1883. And I was really astonished at the
breadth of concern that they had. And they the paper dealt with virtually everything that
was of significance Astro Hungarian, German Russian relations, internal politics in Norway,
internal politics in France, anti semitism in Germany, the registers in southern politics. And
I, I wasn't aware of a terribly conscious effort, you know, to apply theological position in
evaluating all of these things, but at least this was a a concern of this. Now, it's also
interesting that they came under a great deal of fire, a great deal of criticism for being
involved in this, what was calling Redis, like a blog, a secular paper.
C
Carl Chrislock 67:27
And I don't know how much you, you gentlemen have read about the controversy in 1883,
when spend rude gunners left, but one of the big issues in that controversy got to be the
propriety of theological professors being involved with the secular paper. And, and, yeah,
very lately, it was very left to center by the by the standards of the time it reflected the
views of the vents through in Norway, you see. Now, later on, I don't know why, why this
happened. But later on. It seemed it and this was true after down to that they're
concerned on social issues, narrowed down very largely to the prohibition question. You
know, this became after dad was a member of the prohibition party, a very active
member, and there got to be sort of a one issue. deal here. It was just as if maybe. So, it
kind of like that. Now, I think here to you know, that, that there's some interesting things
about our experts environment, and the supporting churches environment with the, with
the prohibition movement. It was a little bit invited, it was a little bit ambivalent here. On
the one hand, there was this thing that I've talked about this narrowing of concern almost
entirely to that one issue. But then, on the other hand, you know, the, the prohibition
movement did involve association with some of the Reformed Church groups. And it
seems to me that the Friends of Augsburg in the early 90s and Gluten Free Church
afterwards was possibly a little more open to those associations on behalf of prohibition,
then, say the Norwegian Synod was a Norwegian sin, it actually took a position rather
hostile to belonged to temperance societies. This was being yoked with unbelievers, the
church, they said, was the true temperance society. You see, so it sort of worked both
ways. But I do feel like maybe this is a reflection of a beef that I had, when I was young, I
thought that there got to be, you know, this, this complete concern with this one issue to
the exclusion of other issues. So I in a way, this this broad and social concerned, I mean, to
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 19 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
jump into hitch up with what you said, when you talk about Parsons, and so on. I think that
in one sense, this was a recovery of, of a value that we had had earlier and through
combination of circumstances had had been obscured a little bit.
P
Paul Sonnack 70:38
Yes. That was Paul Sonnack. Now, you know, apparently, I can't pick up the story here. I
don't know what happened in between, in between the time that the 18th amendment was
added to the Constitution, and what the Augsburg creeper was in there, you know, as a
kind of a parents medical remark. I think the whole prohibition movement is kind of a, an
interesting movement itself, at least in this sense, that the movement began, really as a as
an attempt on the part of the reformers to persuade people to stop drinking, or to quit
making this stuff. And it ended up really by enacting legislation, so that they put that
whole business over over the whole country. In other words, there's a shift here and tactic
from persuasion to legislative coercion. I don't I don't really know what that means. yet.
But I think that's a kind of a significant shift. But now, you know, let that go. I think. And I
learned this from Joe Torre since and but I think I really learned from Bernard Christensen
to, I learned a lot of things from Bernard Christensen. I think that what I what I learned in
the question of the relation of church to society, from from men like this, was that in the
expression of, of Christian love for the neighbor, one can proceed in different ways.
P
Paul Sonnack 72:22
One can seek for example, to, to ameliorate distress, you know, in obedience to the
biblical injunction to care for the widow and the orphan. And so and so, you can do this,
then by developing works of charity, great philanthropic enterprises. And I think that there
was no attempt on the part of these men to debunk that enterprise. But I think beyond
that, what they taught me is that, that if a Christian man is to live in love's for the
neighbor, he must also manifest some concern for the issues of justice in society. And I
think I learned from them, that the Christian therefore must understand something about
the structures of society and what they can do to an individual. And one has to add some
concern for the dynamics of social change. And all this kind of thing. I don't think that the
free church itself ever put that into effect. But I think that kind of a lesson was around here
at Augsburg way back then. And you know, as I see it, now, it's in the American Lutheran
Church, we're just really beginning to understand the significance of that rather crucial
distinction, I think. Now, I don't know what again, what to make out of all this. I'm just
testifying to the fact that this was well,
C
Carl Chrislock 74:10
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 20 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Are there any further comments? No, it is five o'clock and working days. The working day
is about past. You all have families to come home to any parting shots here?
P
Phil Quanbeck 74:27
I hesitate to put such a film one day Pardon me. I hesitate to put such a flippant comment
at the end. I I do had Joel Torstensen as a teacher. And one I think of the influential
teachers as I remember him in my life, so influential that when I graduated from college,
I'm sure you don't remember this, john. But when I graduated from seminary, rather, I was
debating whether or not I should pursue graduate course in sociology, and I remember
talking to you about this at one point. But but the column that I want to make is that more
radical than the critical method in my life was the discovery the Johnston's what was the
Democrats.
C
Carl Chrislock 75:27
Any other comments? I can add here, of course, that the Augsburg and the free churches
and the NEA reckoning one of the conferences, identification with with republicanism has
been much magnified by legend. Folk blot it, in effect was supporting William Jennings
Bryan in 1896, I think after dark had control of the editorial policy, then they spoke very
kindly of him, of course, when the prohibitionist candidate came to town, he was the one
that had the real answer, but they were sympathetic to Brian and to free silver, they were
oriented towards the populists. Earlier, UC. And I know that Peter Blegen told me that too,
that his father had been,
P
Phil Quanbeck 76:17
you know, a great admirer of
C
Carl Chrislock 76:19
Brian. And there's another thing that's kind of fascinating here over the years, I don't know
if you know, Charlie Stang along or have heard of him, if I told you about him. He was a
classmate of George SkyDrive class of 98. He went down to Colombia, took his PhD in
political science, he served in the diplomatic service for a while. And then he became a
professor of political institutions in Germany. Now he was, he was, you know, by the
standards of his time very far left. He was a supporter of Debs in 19, eight, for example,
and he, there's a whole final correspondence from him to George, unfortunately, George's
responses on there,
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 21 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
J
John Stensvaag 77:02
you know,
C
Carl Chrislock 77:03
and he had the highest regard, Charles Stangl and did for for George's father,
77:09
he felt that he'd been one of the most important
C
Carl Chrislock 77:12
influences in his life and staying around was anything but evangelical, you know,
77:18
in.
C
Carl Chrislock 77:21
I think he probably I better not say, because
J
John Stensvaag 77:38
religion department and I am certainly appreciative of the need for change and the way
in which it's moved. But I am concerned that we don't lose sight of the nurture Hello.
There. So I don't know what's happening. But I but in this day and age as and every age, I
think we have to have concern for these people as individuals, and try to teach in such a
way that that we attract them to the Christian faith, and make exciting for them the
Christian faith. It isn't enough to be scholarly, I think this is important. And as Phil pointed
out, I don't think that ever was absent from the concern of the department. And now the
scholarly concerned finds other expressions as is necessary in our day but but just so we
don't get so wrapped up in the mechanics of the process, we cite the first person to to get
a raise of the greatness of the gospel and the greatness of the Christian now, enterprise.
This would be my concern, as it would be of any pastor. And I'm sure it's a concern of fail
as head of department that that with the other way don't lose this concern.
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 22 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
RG 21.4.1968.11.14 Religion.mp3
Page 23 of 23
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:18AM
64:49
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, conference, committee, student, christensen, opposition, paragraph, remember, vote,
nomination, personnel, people, trustees, candidate, board, church, program, year, president,
institution
SPEAKERS
K. Ber... Show more
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Fri, 08/09 10:18AM
64:49
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, conference, committee, student, christensen, opposition, paragraph, remember, vote,
nomination, personnel, people, trustees, candidate, board, church, program, year, president,
institution
SPEAKERS
K. Berner Dahlen, Gerda Mortensen, Carl Chrislock
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:00
This is one of the tape recordings for the centennial library of tape recordings done in the
archives room on Tuesday, December 31 1900 68. The main purpose of this interview today
is to talk with Mr. K. Brunner down, especially about some of the work in connection with
the coming election of Dr. Christensen to the presidency of Oxbridge and later to talk
about the beginnings of student personnel work at Augsburg, Caracas, Mark and Mrs.
Theresa Haines and I here to Washington will be asking questions as the year progresses.
C
Carl Chrislock 00:44
And just to fill in a little of your biographical data, Berner, you graduated from Augsburg
1931. Is that right? And were out teaching in the public schools. Part Four of it for the next
10 years. Wisdom graduate work interspersed. And then you came to Augsburg in 41. Was
it in the fall of 41? Well, the first thing I think we want to talk about here is the 1938. Annual
Conference of the Lutheran Free Church. And is it correct that you were a secretary of
committee number two, the committee that wants to respond to the reports of the
educational institutions.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
01:37
The committee's of the church conference were elected or were nominated by the
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 1 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
conference the year before and elected. So that actually, we were members of the
conference for a whole year beforehand. But our meeting began on Wednesday. The first
step, which was to elect officers, and Reverend Arthur Hansen was elected chairman. And
I was reelected secretary of post which I accepted with some reluctance. That's
particularly humorous, because I'm a teacher of composition. But writing and such
conditions is not the easiest thing for me to do. But from that time on, we met as a
committee whenever possible during the conference, and tried to put into a few pertinent
paragraphs the the report of the President of the Board of Trustees and other influential
members of the the Augsburg administration. Mung other topics, of course, was the one of
major importance the nominating of the new president. And this we did.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
03:05
I remember, particularly after the opening salutation, I had written a paragraph to the
effect that we mourn the untimely death of the late George job. And immediately,
Professor Andreas, Helen raised a rather stern protest with the explanation to the
congregation that in God's hands, nothing is untimely. And so of course, the congregation
voted this out of the committee's report, excuse me. Still, I've, I've since thought that this is
a theological problem, and I wouldn't be in a position to argue it one way or the other.
And, of course, it really didn't figure here, but that's the one. That's the one thing that I
remember from reading the report. There was this one protest. And the rest of the report,
it seemed to me was received by the con by the conference withnodisturbances of any
kind. I remember once that Dr. Bernard raised his eyebrows and stopped me from reading
for a moment, while he said, there is a considerable amount of noise in the in the church
auditorium. And this is a Christian conference and or something to this effect, and that
there ought not be this kind of a disturbance. And with that, of course, the disturbance
quiet down and I was permitted to continue my reading.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
04:57
Now, the reports, of course, were made, first read all the way through, and then were
followed through paragraph by paragraph. And after that initial plunge, I really have no
recollection of any other dissension, no dissension, no, no disturbance of any kind. Other
than that, for see the secretary presented the paragraph to the to the conference, and
then stepped aside and the, and the President of the conference took over. So if there was
any, any discussion? I really had no part in it. And I don't recall that there was any, except
as I mentioned, the one about the reference to the untimely death of the late George
burger.
Gerda Mortensen 05:48
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 2 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 05:48
Do you remember that Dr. Bennett took the floor and made a very strong statement
about the fact that they had a good that the only candidate to be considered was Dr.
Christensen and Dr. Norbert should not come under consideration. They had information,
that would mean that this would be punter. This would be undesirable. He said it very
carefully. But he said it was a great premise.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
06:19
Yeah, so I remember that. It seemed to me that that came. I don't remember if it was
before the voting or after, before the voting, but he did make a very emotional speech, in
which he kept his voice, very low and, and very, very well controlled, but certainly
emotional field. I think he said something to this effect that we had hoped that this would
not have to come before the conference. But since there had been some pressure on the
board of trustees that he was forced to make that statement.
C
Carl Chrislock 07:05
Now, just to refresh your memory a little here, the Board of Trustees of Augsburg brought
course to the conference, the recommendation, or they rather than nomination of Bernard
Christensen as president of Augsburg, and this had been announced a little less than a
month before the conference. The actual nomination had been made in March, but it was
sat on for about two months. This was partly at least because Christensen wasn't yet
ready to accept. And after the announcement was made in the church papers, there was
some objection to the fact that the Board of Trustees had nominated only a single
candidate. There were some who expressed the view that the annual conference should
have had at two or more candidates. Now, I was wondering if within committee number
two, there was any argument in favor of two candidates modifying the Board of Trustees
report to that extent.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
08:26
The members of the committee, of course, were frequently cornered during the conference
by certain representatives of the opposition, who suggested that it's an undemocratic
process not to have two candidates. And as I told my wife this morning, I was very young
than I was only 32. So I thought to that, it would have been better if they'd had two
candidates, at least to log on, for the conference. But since that time, I have served on
many committees and I have
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 3 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
K
K. Berner Dahlen
09:06
I think there are more frequently
K
K. Berner Dahlen
09:10
nominating committees who place in nomination one person rather than two. And still it
would be considered a democratic process. Now, if the conference had wanted to
introduce a second candidate. This was entirely within the power of the conference. But as
far as the committee is concerned, I remember distinctly that we had a fairly lengthy and
perhaps somewhat heated discussion on this topic. The conference committee could only
do with what they had received from the Board of Trustees, if the Board of Trustees
presented us with one nomination for the presidency. That's what we had to work with.
And the idea of putting in a sticker candidate or someone else was contrary to the rules of
work, the church, at least, this is the standard, the committee talk, and I was happy to
have that to lean back on because as you know, you do hear a few things here and there.
And we had heard that the candidate that was being proposed was not the particular
candidate that we would like to have as a longtime president of our institution. And so I
personally had some some leaning in, in the direction of the committee rather than in the
direction of the opposition.
C
Carl Chrislock 10:43
Oh, well, yeah, I can I can, I can clarify that. No, no, that that was long before the
conference, you see, the the corporation meeting, the Board of Trustees worked out sort of
a four stage procedure, they were a little bit in doubt as to how to go about electing a
president. It did almost. It had been so informal in the previous cases. And so the first
stage really was to have a preferential vote within the corporation. Now, I'm not sure that
the that preferential vote was ever made public, it's in the corporation minutes, there were
19 votes cast, Christensen got eight Brynn, burntwood four clans, Carlson four, Norberg,
two and Hendrickson one. And this then was disclosed to the Board of Trustees. This was
back on March 9, and 10th. The Board of Trustees then unanimously and nominated
Christensen and and that was the second stage. Now the third stage, of course, was to be
conference action on the board nomination. And the fourth stage would be the final stage
Board of Trustees ratification of the conference action, which was legally necessary. And
the most controversial part of the whole thing, of course, was this business of only one
candidate. And I and I guess my question, I guess you've answered my question. My
question was whether within committee number two, there was any agitation afoot to
modify the Board of Trustees recommendation to the point of having two candidates and
and you indicate that this wasn't possible under the operating rules.
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 4 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
K
K. Berner Dahlen
12:55
That's true. That's it. That's the attitude that the committee took. Now. As I recall it, we did
receive a substitute paragraph written by a member of this up for the opposition, that was
suggested as a substitute, which we could insert into our committee report. And this in did
include the two candidates, excuse me. But when we met in committee, we decided that
as you know, the committee's of the church were elected by or were nominated by a
committee of the year before. And in the procedure, very frequently, people got on
committees for which they had very little competence. And I don't know that any of us,
perhaps, Reverend Arthur Hansen was well qualified. I don't know who the other members
of the committee were at this moment. I have them here. And it was Johannes ring stood,
and inbound, Northam and Joe, who's flown and yourself and Arthur Hansen.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
13:59
Suppose that each of us could say that we were fond of Augsburg, and we're good
supporters of it. But as far as the inner workings of the Board of Trustees and the
administration of the school, this, this would certainly be far removed from myself. And I
think other members, the committee, so when it came to ruling on, which were really the
committee was being asked to do to rule on that the fact that the Board of Trustees had
not done adequately for the conference by presenting only one candidate, this would
really put us in a position as a committee of overruling the Board of Trustees. And as I
mentioned before, I think that the rules that work were such that we had no authority to
take anything outside of the material presented to us by the Corporation and the Board of
Trustees. And that's, that's the stand that we took and on which we operate. Across, I think
I had a little glow of satisfaction when when Dr. Brentwood made his announcement,
because we felt a little harried by the members of the opposition who had gotten to us
between committee sessions and, and tried to put some pressure on that we have to do
this. And we have to do that. In fact, on one occasion, the aisle was blocked from which
through which I wanted to go, and I was detained for all minute or two, and which I was
close enough to the people who are protesting that I felt really uncomfortable, because
I'm basically a peaceful man. And this is something quite strange and different for me.
Now, in all deference to opposition's, it seems to me that, as I mentioned informally
before, the the enthusiasm with which the younger group from the college from the
church had greeted Dr. Norberg in his appearance in Minneapolis, I think is one indication
as to why this enthusiasm tended to want to increase and retain such a man for our own
institution. So I don't I don't think that my own statements about them would be in any
sense criticism, but simply a matter of stating the position of the committee, which I was a
member.
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 5 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
C
Carl Chrislock 16:34
You know, I think a few days ago in conversation, you you indicated that there were some
members of the Norberg faction. Who put pressure or you mentioned that here to that
they put pressure on members of the committee. Now, did I understand that some of them
tried to put pressure on you a secretary to to turn in a report to two nominations?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
17:07
Well, actually, the last the least, that they thought that I could do, if I had any sense of
citizenship at all was to turn in a minority report. And this, I think, in all fairness is possible.
I believe a member of the committee would have a complete authority to go against the
the motions of the committee and majority and turn into Minority Report. And it was felt,
or it was so stated by members of the opposition that this was my responsibility, moral
responsibility if, if not legal responsibility. And they would provide me with all the
paragraphs necessary for this Minority Report. But of course, I resisted that. So let's try
tenuously as I could. And I was glad afterwards that I had done it, because, among other
things, as I mentioned to you, privately, Carla, Dr. Brentford, waited for the committee.
And when I came, he said, Well, the Secretary, please report for committee number two,
and I walk all the way down in front of the church right down the middle of the aisle. And
then he raised his eyebrows and said, Who is going to read your report? Where's the
secretary of the committee? And he's, and I said, I'm the secretary of committee.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
18:34
So he stopped for a moment. Very few times that Dr. Franklin was caught without some
words to say. And I guess he didn't know what word he wanted to say at that particular
point. I think he was impressed by the gravity of the situation. And here, I was a mere
novice. My only position was out of a an alumnus who had been nominated to the
committee. And I think he was looking for some other person to present the report. We
had, of course, urged the chairman of the committee, read the report in the conference,
but he refused to do it. Since he said it was the routine for the Secretary to read the
report. Well, that was a humorous aside, I think,
C
Carl Chrislock 19:29
Did president Brentwood have any suspicion because of your youth that you were a
member of the other faction?
K. Berner Dahlen
19:40
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 6 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
K
K. Berner Dahlen
19:40
I'd rather not mentioned that aspect of it. Dr. Bernard, and I had a number of interesting
conversations, one of which was done in Norwegian. And so I have an opinion as to why
he did it. But I'd rather not say
C
Carl Chrislock 20:06
Well, now, I think we've we've established some of the main facts here. The the opposition
did want to or didn't expect you to turn in a minority report, you say, and I've wondered
about that why a minority report was not turned in that, of course, would indicate the
committee number two on the whole was with the recommendation of the board.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
20:39
I think there's no question about the fact that the committee was fairly well unified on the
on the topic of having just one candidate as presented by the Board of Trustees, I think we
would have felt more comfortable if there had been another candidate presented.
However, the committee certainly was in support of the candidate that was listed by the
Board of Trustees. Now, as far as the Minority Report is concerned, perhaps that's that was
because of the fact that the committee kept pressing us with with the urgency of this, and,
and I suppose it raised some stubbornness on the part of the committee. In opposition to
being pressured, we felt that committees were supposed to be acting free from pressure,
and this was not the case. Another another thing it seemed to me was the fact that they
had the opposition said that, that the conference was, was very much more in their favor
than in the candidate presented by the board. But wherever we, wherever we talk to
people, we found that the claims of the opposition were exaggerated. And I think that this
is borne out in the actual voting that the negative vote was very slight. Yes.
C
Carl Chrislock 22:12
Unfortunately, we don't have complete minutes from the convention I've there is an
infocomm bladder to fuller account. And in the annual report, you know, the annual
report is got a daily journal. And this journal indicates that the report of committee
number two was considered on Friday afternoon. And the first paragraphs were adopted
pretty much without discussion, they were non controversial. And and then, of course,
when they got to, to the presidency, a substitute motion was introduced on the floor.
Maybe that was to substitute motion that you were asked to submit as a minority report.
Professor HN Hendricks will be retained as acting president for one year and Dr. BM
Christensen be made dean of the college department and Dr. Stretton Norberg, Dean of
the theological department now that was presented by john Kwan back. Pastor john Kwan
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 7 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
back of Starbuck, according to this. And before the discussion got underway, the
Secretary read a letter from Dr. sweater Norberg in which he stated that he had decided
to refuse nomination to the office of president of Augsburg seminary 11 speakers took part
in the discussion of the substitute motion six, four and five against. And so this got to be
pretty long. The talk about it account indicates that it got to be so long that quite a few of
the delegates left. Do you remember? You remember? You remember that?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
23:55
No, I can't say I can't say that. I remember that. Subject a motion of this nature, of course,
would be handled completely by the conference, President and the Secretary would be
either standing or sitting off to one side. And as the time passed, I can well imagine that
many of the people many of the delegates did leave.
C
Carl Chrislock 24:23
Yeah, well, then to just to procedure just to refresh your memory on this. Then emotion was
made mean after that long discussion on the substitute emotion, then emotion was made.
The paragraph for which dealt with Dr. Sweat and Norberg nomination for permanent
professorship in Old Testament theology be voted on before discussion of the substitute
motion. And this motion was adopted UC, so they discussed. Norberg is a theological
professor. And the paragraph was adopted. That is he was approved by the conference as
theological professor. And just to follow that up a little bit, there were negotiations
through the summer that were directed apparently towards securing his acceptance. But
of course, he did not accept them. Emotion was then entertained to table the substitute
motion. The substitute motion, you're not Professor Hendrickson should act for one more
year. Now this was to table it. And the result of this voting was 146, four and 79. Against,
you know, 146 for would have been against the motion and the 79 against would have
been for it. So that put the original paragraph three, that is the nomination of Christmas
and before the house, five speakers discussed the paragraph for being in favor and one
against pastor handle house it move that the meeting, vote on the question whether the
election of President of Oxbridge she'll be decided this year delayed on to next year.
Professor Hendrickson was opposed to years delay enters the conference to settle the
matter. emotion to table houses motion was entertained. And this motion was adopted
with 138 votes for and 57 against. And then they sang him. And they had a season of
prayer for the guidance of God's Spirit in this and more important matter. And after that,
the meeting proceeded to vote by ballot on the original paragraph three, and the result
here, Christian since nomination was approved by 214, affirmative balance 17, negative 13
ballots Mark not voting, and three ballots marked. Dr. Norberg that's the way the that's
the way it's summarized here.
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 8 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
K
K. Berner Dahlen
27:00
I can remember the fact that in the meeting, there were these large numbers. Because so
often in our Lutheran Church conferences, the balloting became rather lacks and to have
votes of over 200 were quite unusual. And, of course, as I mentioned before, Dr. banquet is
an admirable chairman of the church conference, because these interruptions for the
singing of a hymn and followed by a prayer session, were very effective in and subduing,
rather boisterous spirits, including the secretary, I presume.
C
Carl Chrislock 27:47
Yeah, well, now, I'd like to ask you another question here. Do you think that these votes,
now they're they're not all of them consistent, but you have one vote here. 146, really for
the boards position 79, against 138 457 against. And then, of course, 214, for original
paragraph 370. Against that is, you'd have to say there were 8086 against 214 to 86. If you
count, the Norberg vote, the not voting vote. And the negative vote. Do you think that
reflected the sense of the convention? Or do you think the Norbert people were were
closer to being correct in in saying that they had considerable support?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
28:51
Well, actually, I would have no way of knowing it in detail. But I would think that the vote
pretty well reflect the spirit of the meeting. I think that the leaders of the opposition were
very popular, and were very energetic, and had certainly had many buttonholing sessions
with voting delegates, so that they tried to raise their total vote to as much as they
possibly could. So I think that and of course, the opposition didn't work at all, as far as I
know. So I think that the vote then would represent about as much as the minority could
possibly have raised under any circumstances. And some of it, of course, would have been
artificially encouraged the people voting really in, in harmony with their friends, rather
than for any condition that they might have had. So I think that I think that the opposition
was really pretty much job scare head rather than an actual active opposition.
C
Carl Chrislock 30:08
And now I have one more question about the opposition. It's not entirely clear from
sources that I have here. And that is, its composition. Now, it's pretty clear that this young
group, you might call it almost a children's crusade. Well, that group of allegiance and
seminarians with Johnson, Johnston swag and having a baton in the lead, they were one
important element in it one day. And who else was was in it? Was it a coalition between
them and some other groups? Do you remember Were there any of the older people who
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 9 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
were suspicious of a cooperation with the American Lutheran conference? Did they tend
to rally to, to to the Norbert candidacy, there's some indication that this might be so from
the letters coming into the blood it?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
31:09
I wouldn't have any insight on that at all, I think I was surprised to discover that Simon LV
was a member of the opposition. But, of course, he was concerned about the evangelistic
awakening, which I think he envisioned, with dynamic percentages, Norberg was, and it
seems to me that this is probably one of the things that stirred the emotions and
imaginations of the others to and the minority group. But I really couldn't say it seems to
me that it would be fair to say that it was representative cross section of, of enthusiasts,
both for the vision of building new buildings and far expanding the influence of Augsburg
throughout the Lutheran Free Church and, and simply getting a new dynamic in motion.
I'd really don't know of too terribly many persons involved other than the leaders
themselves, with whom I had some contact during the contract.
G
Gerda Mortensen 32:30
I think you're right in talking about some of these people who are a little bit afraid that
Christensen was going to lead them into merger with other groups. And so some of those
ultra conservatives voted against this, because I think they had a feeling that if Norberg
elected, he would certainly keep us just as loose and free church, and not too much the
movement with the others. But I think that I know, every annual conference, it seemed
that there was some big issue, they took a day or a day and a half. And it seemed that this
got to be a therapy for the whole group. And I had a feeling at the end of that day that
somehow there came a positive for people to do some second thinking before that final
vote was cast, and it was pretty representative.
C
Carl Chrislock 33:22
Now Berner, you mentioned Mel B I'm, what was he active in the convention? On behalf of
Norbert
K
K. Berner Dahlen
33:33
I don't think that he was active in any sense out of them that he was. He was along with
the leaders of the of the supporters of Norberg. I don't remember talking to him in person,
except that I remember when battalion talk to me then or then Mel B was right beside
him. And was second his statements. This had reference to, as I recall it, introducing a
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 10 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
substitute motion or turning in at least a minority report. I don't know why the minority
report should have not appeal to them. And particularly, but it seemed it seemed to me
that that was kind of a second choice. Perhaps minority reports are not too effective in a
in a conference. There's something negative about it at the very beginning. But maybe, of
course, was a Bible teacher and he hadn't heard enough of Norberg to regard him as an
outstanding Bible teacher. So, he had a great deal of enthusiasm for him. And as I
mentioned before, the the wave of enthusiasm that came as a result of Norberg saw
dynamic leadership, in reference to raising funds for creating Memorial Hall was enough to
sell many of the young people on his fitness as a leader of the institution itself.
C
Carl Chrislock 35:16
Do you have something in the in the in the Norberg Wilco clack? Yeah. And and and who
were who were the leaders was, was the towel them and, and still swag in my writing was
john there. Johnston swag.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
35:35
I don't remember. I don't remember it particularly stands for but the person that I talked to
most of all is the TV because of course, we were college classmates and, and I think he
had that sense of control. He had always been able to dominate me during college days.
And so he assumed that same control later as well.
C
Carl Chrislock 36:02
Do you remember? Do you remember john? JOHN Kwan back here? I've asked him about
this. He doesn't remember anything about it. Now. He was the one that introduced the
substitute motion. Did he play a role here?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
36:16
I don't remember this particular conference. Jon Bon Becca, of course, came to Augsburg
seminary late in life. As I recall it, he was he was a new theological student, the year I was
a senior. And he distinguished himself by being a very aggressive basketball player
particularly, and became quite quite a leader for the younger group, because he was
aggressive, both and vocal. And of course, I'd had some more experienced and he was
more mature than most of them. I can, I can, I can say that. I, I think that he was too
energetic, both on the basketball field. And in his and his activities among the students. As
far as his aggressiveness was concerned. As the chairman of the student council for a year,
for the student society, we used to call it in those days, I had many clashes with a number
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 11 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
of seminary students, including john convict. Well, yeah,
C
Carl Chrislock 37:35
I i think i think probably we've gone as far as we, you know, need go on this particular
topic. I think there was something quite different that we wanted to ask you about here to
just one more question. Now, I'm 30 years after the event, its course very easy See, to see
things that were not present them. And it occurs to me when I look at some of this that in
some sense, this contest pre staged or anticipated, the later battle over merger is would
that be correct? Do you think that you see the faint outlines of that here? I think we really
touched on that, or were these other questions, the dynamism of of Norberg and the idea
that he would get a campus built and give that kind of leadership? Was that the
predominant thing?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
38:49
I don't think I would be qualified to answer that. Because I haven't given any thoughts. It
seems to me, though, that the leaders of of the opposition and 30 years ago later became
the leaders for the merger. Well, that's true. And this would be somewhat inconsistent with
the, with the general pattern. Now, of course, that there could be this energetic group
within the church that didn't always see the the ideas of the mainstream. This is entirely
possible. But I don't personally see any, any trend there beginning at that particular time.
Yeah.
G
Gerda Mortensen 39:41
But you remember to the Johnston spoke for a long time was anti merger. And it wasn't
until we had gotten well into the discussion, whether we should hit merge or not that john
was thoroughly converted to become for the merchant, the church. Amen. Annual
Meeting. And Wilmer, I guess it was, when he finally said, well, I've changed my mind.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
40:07
Well, this, I think is true and but isolated cases, you find when you have very strong
personalities that they are, they tend to swing from one extreme to the other, seemed a
little inconsistent, that he should be the interpreter of surgery, as he did at that Willmar
conference. And then, at the same time, just lately resigned from the leader of the
opposition to the merger. So there is a little inconsistency there. But it seems to me that
there was a struggle for leadership there more so than that there was a struggle for, I
should say, person personal leadership, or an attempt to gain a position of power rather
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 12 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
than having the leadership of the church as
C
Carl Chrislock 40:56
Well, I think this concludes our discussion on the 38 conference. And and now we can stop
it just a little. Bernard, during your early years, here is Dean, CU. You came in 41. You were
here. 4142. And then you returned in
K
K. Berner Dahlen
41:18
October and I returned in October and 45, October in 45. Well, I may say that as far as my
employment is concerned, there are many people who have said to me, I hope half
humorously that. Oh, I see, you are hired because you were the one that puts the
president into nomination in 1938. And I think this is not true. Because my first conference
with President Christensen, about coming to Augsburg as really as Dina men and
counselor boys, this is the this is the thing that he was most concerned about, I suppose
came in during 1940. I had a letter from him in which he asked if I would stop in some
time, on hours in the city. And we would have lunch together, which was a very
characteristic Christensen procedure. We did have lunch together and we had two or
three other sessions, in which he discussed Augsburg as an institution. He even mentioned
the fact that he had decided to discuss the possibility of having a dean of the college and
he wanted to know what my opinion was about certain people in that area. At first, I was
disturbed to think that I was being promoted for something for which I had no
qualifications. But this scar was settled very quickly when he mentioned the persons that
he had in mind. But I did come to Augsburg with a contract, which stated that I was to I
was to be in charge of the boys to serve as counselor and Dean event. And incidentally,
teach speech and freshman English. So I had from the very start to full time jobs, but let
me say that he wasn't satisfied to let things wait till he got the personnel for it, because as
I recall it, Gordon Martin's and as Dina women, and early and heard all, as, as an
interested teacher, I suppose, had begun the student personnel work at least two years
before maybe three, so that when I came, there was going concern that they had a
department of student personnel. And all I did was to fit into it. And of course, the fact that
I stayed there only one year, from the beginning, was not a very much help to anyone
except me. I learned a lot that year. The position of Dean of men was not exactly an easy
one during that year, because siloed lb was still living in his old quarters. And to all intents
and purposes, he was still, he was still the dean. And newer, younger man with no
dynamics to, to boast of, I wasn't a popular basketball coach. In fact, I don't know
anything that I had to offer, except that I did insist on getting furniture from my office,
which was in Memorial Hall. And this was finally granted, even though I bought it myself.
And incidentally, I still own I still own the desk. But those were times when Oxbridge didn't
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 13 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have as much money as it has had, both before and after.
C
Carl Chrislock 45:26
All that work that is Markinson and earning are now dead on student personnel. was that?
Was that done before? A European first stint of service here? Or was it done in the interim?
between your first stint and you're coming back?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
45:50
No, the work had been done. I don't remember when they first started attending these
North Central summer sessions. But they had attended at least one before I came. And
these, these North Central workshops, which were held either at University of Minnesota
or at the University of Illinois, were geared towards helping different institutions develop
their own personal program. And of course, the program that was prominent at Augsburg
was that of student personnel program. It envisioned Student Counseling for freshmen
assistance at registration time, vocational guidance, and I think all the general areas of
student personnel as we know it today. And while it was held in a kind of suspended state,
I suppose for three years. My question was taken over by early punk Seth, who was then a
senior in the seminary, I should say he lived in the dormitory as head resident during the
first year. And really, I'm not familiar with what happened because by that time, I had
gone overseas and I didn't know much about it until October 45.
C
Carl Chrislock 47:22
Gerda, do you have some comments?
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:27
We had started this top quite early, even before you came, as you indicated, an airline or
gal had been one of the first people to spend a summer at this workshop I had been with
Dr. Christensen the summer before when they first initiated them, had invited me to come
along in so he said, Well, now we can get some, some ideas. And so at national
conventions, I had made a study and we started the university student personnel
workshops Institute's in the fall, and the ideas from there. And then the summer of 45, I
had been the representative to the workshop. And Dr. Christensen has asked me just take
student activities. And it was when we were getting ready to plan this science building.
And when I got over there, Dr. Gilbert ran was just back from service and he had heading
up this homework was to the personnel at Minnesota and what was his name? Matt?
Dugan, Dr. Willis Dugan. The two of them are great team. And so it was when I chose as
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 14 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
my leader in that particular workshop, and I told Dr. Christensen, we had to take a look at
the total student personnel program. And so the total student personnel program was one
of the things that we started to study.
G
Gerda Mortensen 48:49
And then I asked if we couldn't both Mr. Don and I be representatives at the workshop, the
following server, which we did. And after that, we both took courses from doctor when I
know we were in that administration course, when we together administrating student
personnel, so that we got a chance to work on the floor plan of the first floor of this
building, and are just trying to put our offices in such a way that we'd be adjacent to the
registrar's office and, and to some of the others so that we tried to work out even in that
capacity, some of these things. And when you came back from the service went to
appointed Dean of Students at that point with a broader point of the supervising this total
program. And together, we worked and I was made the coordinators, student activities.
And so together, we tried to work as best we could to implement. And mind you I had
followed to burn down and you know, full teaching load and fully other, and I had all the
supervision of the housing of women, and we didn't have a dormitory for them. And I had
to hunt for houses in every area, from Cedar to Riverside to the river to Franklin Avenue, in
order to house people, all these things is simply we're done, that we try to do the best we
could, and what we hit, we developed a little, many, many, many of the areas but the
beginnings were there. And we worked at trying to implement them and make them as
workable as possible.
C
Carl Chrislock 50:20
You would, you would trace the beginnings and really to the early years of Christian since
administration. They were before the war. And then then what happened after the war
was, in a sense, further development or fruition of it?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
50:39
Well, I'm quite sure that he mentioned when I was hired, on the arrangements were being
made for me to come to Augsburg. He mentioned the fact that the This work was going
on, and that there was a plan, proceeding under which students would be taken care of
through student personnel work. And their particular reason he chose me was that I'd had
five years of successful Boy Scout work. And some community dramatics in my teaching
up at Crosby aren't and I was a director of plays for the High School, which extended into
junior high school and some community activity. So that by putting those two things
together, he thought he had someone who, who might have some insight into student
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 15 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
personnel, interests and activities. And so I'm quite sure that this is what he had in mind
when, when he hired me was that student personnel program was already in effect. And
then, of course, as Gerda mentioned, the the workshops that we attended the University I
attended to, I guess you probably attended, three, four. And I know that early girl had
attended at least one before I came. So the, we certainly would have to mention that the
North Central Association gave us of their best. And at these workshops, we studied ideal
programs and, and in some of our coursework, we were given assignments, I went once to
St. All of college, and investigated their student personnel program, which at that time, I
may say, was not very much of a program. And my experience has been as a member of
the American College personnel association of the national vocational guidance
association that Augsburg has been quite far in advance of most of the schools in our
area, and programs. Both in the handling of Student Affairs and, and handling of student
registration of counseling, vocational guidance, and so on. And it's sometimes amuses me
to hear students in our day, particularly those who want to test the faculty courses. And
I've even forgotten the term that I'm supposed to be doing evaluations due to student
evaluation of teachers, I even had to do one of these during one of the workshop sessions
must be about 20 years ago, when I work with one of the sisters from St. Scholastic and
Duluth, and we designed our own, which was density used throughout the United States. I
remember getting requests from both south and east from different colleges who ask
permission to use our form. But this, of course, simply indicates the the characteristic of
human beings that we're not very good historians, we have very short memory. We, we
see the thing that's current and have no, no memory for the past.
C
Carl Chrislock 54:19
I certainly agree with that. I think in many instances, I think, in other areas. Now, just
shifting a little bit, it must have been quite a challenge. And maybe both you and Miss
Markinson would want to comment on this too. It must have been quite a challenge at to
face that postwar crop when enrollment just bulged in. Well, I suppose in in 4647, there
was some Belgian in late 4546 even. You have any comments on that.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
55:04
I don't remember when our Nash was registrar was that in 4142. He was acting registrar for
one year, and during the summer we met. And he asked if the student personnel services
could help in registering students for the fall. And I think that this is the first time that we
really got our program of student orientation underway. And this experience was
invaluable when in 1945. In 46, really, we got one new class that started at the second
semester. And then we began one in the middle of the semester. So we had three classes
going. And then we started one unusual one, about the 15th of March, we had short
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 16 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
session with double periods and a limited number of credits. So we really had four
separate classes going all in one, one year. And then, of course, we had the summer
session. But I may say before I turn this over to Gerda that, as far as the men were
concerned, coming back from the service, they were an ideal group of persons to deal
with, they had no clothing, their money was all provided for them through the GI Bill. So
they presented no problem of any kind. They simply got their books from the bookstores
and studied their lessons, they had a pair of trousers, civilian trousers, and a sweater or
two, and a jacket. And that provided their whole wardrobe. In contrast to now of course,
with the rainbow colors, both top and bottom, and all the other things that go with it,
stereo and hi fi, that becomes not only a problem of, of control, but logistics where you're
going to put all
G
Gerda Mortensen 57:15
I may call one meeting, I was asked to represent Oxford get a meeting of all the
Minnesota private college councils and all the people who were hit to education. And they
just announced it that meeting that we have some certain number of thousand students
that have to be taken care of this year. And our expensive portion is 200. And will you just
take them? Well, everybody said yes, we will just take them we don't know where we're
going to put them what we're going to do. But that group of post war veterans who came
that had no connection with us. They just simply came here to classes and went again,
and really didn't take didn't enter into the life of the college at all. But I remember that
day group of fellows who came back and how much fun it was in history class, because all
right, I want to write about Russian diplomatic relations, because they'd been nailed by
the Russians or I want to do something on Italy, because I was in Italy or I want it right
down the negros because I was in the south. And then that group of men who found that
their dear coach, that assignment will be it died, they dedicated the year to winning
basketball. So the cream of the crop of six different years fund the basketball team. And
then they won the state championship, which gave a kind of a forward moving and the
NA, it was a great cohesive force and a real fun type of thing.
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:44
But they also were like you said, very ready to settle down and get educated and get out
and to do some of the things glad to be back again. Nothing to that are working toward
accreditation with our central association that your Christensen very early was smart
enough to remember he said, Well, why when Why can't we just expect our teacher to be
back through history September the university does. They don't start school till the fall.
But they're expected to be in the office and said, Why don't we try some faculty
workshops. And so he was willing to do this. And I remember Dr. Lucy Eckert. Some of us
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 17 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
have taken courses from at the university came over one workshop one, Paul said, when
I'm giving you my whole course in higher education, United States, and many other things,
and we had Dr. Read and we had Dr. Duke. And we had some of these people come to
help us and to orient the whole faculty toward this. And I would say to that the faculty was
very willing to accept the assignments that you made. Brenda, when you we talked about
having counselors and working at the beginning of this program. And I know I we worked
out one of these outlines, which we used for many years to get information about the
students. And Dr. revenues. That is one of the examples in his book on personnel, which he
and restraint out that you're following are being at that orientation or organization
administration of personnel work at Minnesota, but they kept up their personal interest in
us and kept telling their students over to visit us just as we had been sent out to visit other
institutions.
K
K. Berner Dahlen
60:29
Well, I just want to mention, as far as some of these programs are concerned, we of
course, didn't have the advice from the best people in the business. Dr. Ren was president
of the American College personnel Association, simultaneously with being president of the
National vocational guidance Association. So it was fortunate for him that they met in
convention at the same time, so he could be give his presidential address only once. And
the information that they gave us, of course, was enough to give us the ideas that
formulated the program, which we followed. For example, Gerda mentioned, the the
faculty being counselors now. The University of Minnesota program insisted on having
professional counselors do all the counseling. And if you had a registration advisor, this
was fine. But to try nothing else, now, in the national picture, there came a movement.
One of the directors of the, of the national, or he was a member of the Washington staff of
the National Education Association, indicated that because of the great need for
counseling, no group of professionals could possibly cover it, it was necessary, I do
introduce the idea of faculty, counselors. And so it was necessary to have in service
training. So we began in service training, and I remember our faculty very well, grumbling
somewhat, but still accepting their responsibilities and, and doing an admirable job. I
think, anytime we went to a professional conference, such as the N, Ace American college
personnel Association, or the NBA, GA at Chicago or elsewhere, we were always proud to
think that we've already been doing this program at Augsburg for a year or two or five. So
it is nothing new to us. And we can report on our success rather than look forward to
doing something in that area.
C
Carl Chrislock 62:49
Yeah, well, so very good to get this information on tape. Now. Getting back to this post
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 18 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
war crop students. Do you think that over the long range that this crop did contribute to
make our student community more heterogeneous, less homogeneous than it had been
before?
K
K. Berner Dahlen
63:19
Yes, I'm sure of this that our student group became much more heterogeneous. But I would
say that I would support it 100% if there was a chance for politics to be involved in
scholarship programs. The GI bill that we had after World War Two is certainly the finest
program that could be introduced where the student was given the the tuition while the
tuition money was paid to the institution after he chose the institution. But he was given
his subsistence and he could choose any school that he wanted. And I think of a number
of teachers and Minneapolis Public Schools, for example, both elementary and high
school, who graduated from Augsburg during those years who had no connection at all
with our institution. My own children went through Bancroft school for Mr. Cabot's who
went here. He was a student of mine in the short story during the summer session, I
remember. And we he lives in South Minneapolis, we've seen him and his wife and
operation and he had absolutely no no connection with Augsburg under the faint remote
circumstances. And yet, he is one of the most eager readers of the morning paper to see
how odds are good the night before. RA looks to see what programs are coming. And I
think he's typical of the
RG 21.4.1968.12.31 Dahlen.mp3
Page 19 of 19
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever e... Show more
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:00
Alright, so I'll start by saying that the day today is Thursday, October 31st, 2019. This is Barbara
Sabino for the Muslims in Minnesota Oral History Project. I'm here with Zan Christ. Why don't
you introduce yourself say where and when you were born, and whatever else you want to
share?
Zan Christ 0:20
Yeah. So, like you said, I'm saying, Chris, born July 9 1984, in Fargo, North Dakota. I don't know
what you want to know. But, you know, I can tell a little bit A Brief History of my life story now or
later on.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:39
Well, so what about if we start talking about a little bit about your childhood? So... your
childhood, (clarifying), so where did you leave or go to school? And what do you... what do you
recall about your childhood?
Zan Christ 0:54
Yeah, so like I said, I was born in North Dakota and then I moved to Minnesota. I was four years
old. And I grew up in Alexandria, Minnesota. It's a small town, about two and a half hours
Northwest on I 94. And I lived there, you know, from age four to 18 most of my formative years,
and had a good upbringing. I mean, Alexandria, if you're not familiar with it, it's, it's very...
People are very similar, like, most people are white, most people are Christian. Most people are
really conservative. So it's, it's very much a sheltered upbringing. But I, you know, I, my mother
was an educator, fortunately. So like that was really helpful. Having her and she was she was
very liberal too, so that really helps as well. But yeah, so I had a great childhood. In my
neighborhood, I used to hang out with the kids a lot in my neighborhood. My dad was a pastor,
too. So across the street we had another pastor's family Caitlin a group of kids and then five
houses down there was like another pastor and kids so it was like this pastors kids
neighborhood, I don't know some crazy so we hung out a lot. And that was really fun.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:23
So, you mentioned that your family's christian, right? So, what will you say about your family?
like, did you family have a special traditions like any special traditions, such as, maybe things
that they did on holidays, birthdays, maybe a heirlooms, like is there anything that was been
handed down from generation to generation?
Zan Christ 2:45
Yeah. So... my dad was a pastor. And my family comes from like a line of pastors. So, she went
to send me Mary actually here, Augsburg used to be a seminary before the undergraduate split
off and now Luther is the seminary. So, my dad actually went to school. There are here I guess
you could say. And so there's his brother, and my mom side of the family. I come from her
ancestors were Lutheran pastors too. So that's kind of like something they handed down to me
in a way, kind of because, you know, that's just my family. what they've been doing for like their
occupation. is being pastors, I guess. So. That's why I think I'm really interested in religious life
because it's always been part of my family on both sides since my family came over from
Norway in Germany, which I can talk about more later in depth, but I would say that I mean, so I
think they've always been really involved in church. If they weren't like an actual pastor. They
were like a leader. So like, church organist I had my mom was a church organist and like a choir
director and my grandma's dad was a church organist, too. So I think that that's maybe what
they were passed down to me for, like traditions. It's just like the religion of like being interested
in religion as part of a big part of your life, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 4:20
So, um, you mentioned that then you grow up in religion, right? So, if you have to describe it,
what was your religious life growing up? Like maybe a change maybe it was always the same.
Maybe, it was an event that make you change your mind?
Zan Christ 4:43
Yeah. So growing up, I was involved in the ARCA church, which is what Augburg is affiliated
with. So Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, which a lot of Norwegians and Germans as
well are and so um, you know, I was really involved in church. You know, I was like a Sunday
school teacher. But I think, you know, when you get to your older teenage years, you start
questioning the religion that you're in, because you're like, you don't know who you are your
identity and you question everything and you're trying to figure out who you are in the world.
And so, I pretty much toward the end of high school was just like, I don't know if this is for me.
And so after I graduated from high school, when I started to when I was in college to become an
atheist, pretty much so that was my life for eight years. I was just practicing nothing, and
eventually converted to Islam and graduate school. So, it was a long path, but I started in high
school just thinking like, do I believe this stuff because it just felt like not a good fit and people
just like didn't have like the answers that I was looking for. If they did try to explain it to me. I just
was like, I don't really think I believe that. It just seems like who I am or, it doesn't make sense to
me so
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:07
And since you said you convert to Christianity... (Restating the question) from Christianity to
Islam, so how was that transition? Like, was there anything that made you uncomfortable at the
beginning? And if so, how you handle it?
Zan Christ 6:21
Yeah. So like I said, I went from Christianity to atheism. So I was converting from atheism to
Islam. So, I mean, for me as an undergrad student, I went to Hamline University which is a
Methodist school and I went to there because they didn't require you to take religion classes.
So, I was like, I really want to be, you know, running as far away as I can from that. So, I ended
up becoming a world religions major though, so academically, I was still like interested in
learning about world religions, but it was just like an academic endeavor for me. And then, so I
took that Islam class, but it was just like a class was, you know, I wasn't really drawn to it at that
time, it was just like, another subject area because I, you know, like I said, growing up from
where I was, I didn't know anything about the world. So it was like, Okay, I'm just learning about
the world because I don't know about it at all. But then by the time I was in grad school, I, you
know, I was like, still trying to atheist thing but I was just, I don't know, being atheist. I was really
unhappy, like really depressed because I had nothing basically, you know, it's kind of like
growing up. You have like with Christianity you have like a community of people, where you go
to church on Sunday and like, go to events and stuff. So, I really think I really missed that aspect
of the religion is just like, being with people. And so, I really didn't like being atheist either
because I felt like I didn't have any meaning or purpose in my life because I'm like, "Well, I don't
believe in anything now". But, and then also just like didn't have a community. So that was like a
struggle that I did was Good for about atheism. But then, finally when I was in grad school, I met
some Somali and Pakistani students who those are Muslim majority of popular countries and
they really just like took me under their wing and you know, I just became like close friends with
them and never for a second to they try to convert me, which I think is like the best way to
convert somebody because growing up you know, people try to like force Christianity upon me
and I really hated that like that really pushed me away. So, the fact that they were just like good
people like was what drew me to like look into Islam. And yeah, I just started like, researching it
on my own and my friends like some of the had to go back to their home countries because of
their visa type. They're only here for a semester. So, that was like really good because then I felt
like they left so I could really just have a look at it by myself without their influence and Yeah, I
just started reading about it. And like, I watched like this, these music videos that I really liked.
because music is such a big part of Christianity in the church that I was like, well, I really, like
really love music. So I wanted to make sure I could still have that part of my life as part of my life
anyway. So, that's like.
Barbara Sabino Pina 9:21
And what makes you feel so attracted to this new religion? When was when was the moment
you said, like, Oh, this is for me. This is my right place.
Zan Christ 9:29
Yeah, exactly. So I think like the people that I met, really exemplified Islam versus like,
Christianity, like this is the United States. It's a Christian majority country, but I feel like a lot of
people are just like, secular Christians are like, just Christian by name, but not actually living it.
And so I think, people it's just like a status symbol, like, Oh, yeah, I'm Christian, but they don't
practice at all. It's like basically, they're atheists, too. So I think growing up like a lot of people
that I knew just, I don't know, they were just not really educated about their faith and not really
living it. And so like meeting these Muslim people, they were like, really knew about their religion
and took it really seriously. And were really like devout. And that really struck me because I
don't know, they just had such a good character that really just inspired me because there were
just so nice and giving. And, they were just like, give you things, just because they're nice
people. Like, I don't know, growing up, my family would never do that. I don't know, I think...I
think it's a cultural thing, too. It's not just religion, but part of it is religion. But I think, you know,
European Americans are very individualistic, so they're not, they're very much like about
themselves. Hence the word individualistic individual, and I, you know, Pakistani, and Somali
people are from collectivist culture. So it's all about like your community and so people are just
more open. And sharing and that's like a cultural thing. But it has to do with religion too. But I
think just their kindness is what drew me to the religion. I was just like, well, they seem so
happy, you know, like I want to be happy too. And they're just so giving and growing up, people
aren't as giving like that I was used to. So I think just the people is what really drew me to the
religion.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:23
So you mentioned culture, right?. So what are a few common misconceptions that people have
about Muslims?
Zan Christ 11:31
Yeah, so many, especially in the media, I think Islam is like one of the most hated religions right
now. I mean, it's... In the United States, our president even is just so terrible. "Donald Trump"
...for future if you're listening in the future and don't know what I'm talking about, but I mean,
even just trying to put in policies to like, you know, band people like and that's just so
unconstitutional and, you know, people just they hate what they don't know. Like they the fear of
the unknown, basically. So I think, you know, they just don't know, Muslims. I mean, Islam is the
third largest religion in the United States, but it's like less than 1% So, you know, it's not like
people know a lot of Muslims I don't think so. I think people just believe what they see on like
Fox News, and it's just like, all negatively portrayed, but I think like I went to Pakistan a couple
of years ago and you know, we have like black lives matter here and like people are shooting
like black people. So, I think people think like America is a dangerous place or whatever. And so
people just have like misconceptions about different people in parts of the world. So I think we
receive media from parts of the world we're like, obviously stuff like that is happening but like
here, people like see like shootings all the time. People think that's America. So I think, you
know, that's probably where like, the Islamophobia stems from but I think I have so much
negative activity to, to try and like, correct, I guess, from the media.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:15
Yeah. So did you or have you ever experienced any type of stereotype about you because of
the way you dress? Maybe the way you look? Maybe because you did this transition? Have you
ever experienced something like that?
Zan Christ 13:30
Yeah. So what was the beginning of the question? Just like, have I experienced,
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:33
like any type of stereotype or prejudice? Yeah.
Zan Christ 13:38
So, my, my own family, you know, they weren't thrilled that I converted to Islam, obviously,
letting you know that I come from like, generations of pastors, you know, I mean, obviously, they
take the religion that they are in very seriously and it's like, you know, it's part of who they are,
and... so I think, you know, having children and having your child convert to any religion, I'm
sure it's super hard. So, I don't blame them at all, but I'm just you know, so it was not easy for
them. When I first started hanging out with these friends, my mom was like, kind of telling me
not to hang out with them a little bit. And so, you know, that was kind of hard. She herself is
from like a small town in North Dakota. So, you know, Alexandria, like I said, is very... kind of far
away from like, the Twin Cities but like, a small town, North Dakota is even more excluded from
like, I think, a major city so I think, you know, that's kind of why she was more cautious. But
anyway, so that was like one thing where my family wasn't, you know, excited that I was
hanging out with these people and then when I did convert like back then I was on Facebook.
I'm not on Facebook anymore, but back then I was. And basically, I like announced that I was
like converting to Islam and I was inviting people to like my ceremony basically, it's called the
"Shahada". And like, I did it on like a group chat. And I only invited some people, mostly
Muslims, and then like some of my family, like people who I wanted to come, and my dad was
like, don't do it. And like that was like crappy. So, I like shut my Facebook down immediately
after that, and obviously did convert like I was in grad school, so I'm like older you know, so I
can do what I want. Um, so that was another like negative experience, my family. And then after
that... after I converted... My niece was having her baptism. And I don't remember who did it but
either it was my brother and his wife or my parents. But basically they asked me like not to wear
the "hijab" in the church to like the baptism. I think my parents were the ones who asked me
what they were like asking for my brother and his wife, I can't remember but either they
delivered the message or they are the ones are asking it. But, so that was like really crappy
because, you know, I just converted so it was like really excited to be Muslim. It was a huge
positive change for me. And for them, it was kind of like, they didn't want me to be, you know,
Muslim in public, basically, like, stay in the closet. Like, don't be yourself. So, that was I didn't
like that. But, I I called up my friend, one of my friends from Pakistan, and I was like, What
should I do? You know, because I was a new Muslim I, you know, I didn't know as much as I
know now, like, I wasn't solid in my faith. And, and they were like, well, if your family asks you to
do something, and that it's not against Islam, you should honor your parents. And they were like,
just take off your Hijab and I was like, are you sure? You know, because I, you know, I'm like,
excited to be Muslim. I want to be Muslim, but it's not required to wear a headscarf in Islam. And
so they were like, just take it off. And so I was like, okay, so I basically took it off for the church
service and then put it back on afterwards. So that was like, a really negative experience of my
family. But, I think, you know, they know not to do that now. And also, I know that I, I don't
know... I should probably should just wear it... I don't know, like, so I think we're more, "okay
with the situation". But, I won't forget that experience. And otherwise, I mean, you know, one
time we were pulled over by Homeland Security when we went to when we went to Canada,
when we came back to the United States we got pulled over so that was really not a great
experience. too, which I feel like wouldn't have happened if we were not Muslims. But those are
like some of the negative experiences they had. They're probably more of like micro
aggressions, but I can't remember them.
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:14
What about good experiences since when since when you convert to Islam... to Muslim? When
do you feel like "oh my god I can I can I feel like this is incredible." I'm feeling this is a great
experience. I feel like I'm gaining a lot from this place.
Zan Christ 18:32
Yeah. So I think when I converted, like I said, You know, I was in grad school and I went to
school in Mankato, which is a small town and when I first got there, like I didn't know anybody
because you know, you're going to school at a new place, you know, no one and I am an
introvert. So, you know, I can struggle with making friends because I'm like, "socially awkward"
or whatever. So that was like a struggle for me. But I think, you know, a lot of the local like white
people were not actually like open to being friends with you because I think Minnesota can be
really cliquey, like people just hang out with people that like they've known their whole lives. And
it's kind of hard to break into, like, if you're not from there, but with the international students,
they were just so open to being friends and so I think, for me, it was just positive because it's
kind of like your new family or whatever. And so that was like I said, what drew me to Islam and
like what kept me there is people just so kind I don't know, it's, it's so hard to describe, but
they're just so giving and they give you like all this food and clothing and gifts and you're just
like, "Oh my gosh, you're so nice". I don't even know. So I think that's what drew me to the
religion and kept me there because people were just living Islam they had such a good
character and they were so kind and hospitable and I just really love that feeling. I don't know...
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:04
Since you were both Christian and Islam... at one... like in some part of your life. So, I see
there's like a relationship between Islam and Christianity that deserves carefully exploration for
many angles. So, how does the average Christian relate to the average Muslim? And how could
the Christian begin to convert in a respectful manner with a Muslim about matters of faith?
Zan Christ 20:30
Yeah, just like how to hit interfaith dialogue or something like that. Yeah. I mean, I think you
know, depending on who you are, I think we can be relatively easy just come with an open mind
and know that there's going to be similarities and differences. I think people get really hung up
on the differences but, you know, especially maybe like a world religions major like Islam,
Judaism and Christianity all are so similar to each other, like I am studying Hinduism right now
just for fun and reviewing, and it's so different, like, in a lot of ways so I think you know that
Islam is so similar I mean, you know, Mary, there's like a book in the Quran named "After Mary"
and she is spoken so highly of and she's mentioned more in the Quran in the Bible. So I think
that's like an interesting fact that like, Christians don't know. But I think people really get caught
up on like the thing about like, that Muslims think that Jesus was a prophet and like a messiah
and like a messenger from God. But, Christians think that Jesus is God. And I think they so
many people obsess about that, that really like that's just one difference. You know, like, there's
just so many similarities that I think just trying to follow is on similarities. But honestly, one of my
best friends is Christian and what we talked about, it's just like regular everyday stuff we don't
even like talk about religion and I think that's how you should have interfaith dialogue with
people is just like focus on your humanity because everyone loves eating, love sleeping loves
their family, you know, like just basic like human stuff, or like sports or music or whatever you
like. So, I think that's, you know, just connect on a human level and just let your friendship grow.
You know, that way, I think is as the healthiest way to talk about interfaith dialogue as just have
an open mind, I guess, I don't know and accept that you just will have differences. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 22:46
Totally agree. (laughs) So, is there anything that you learn from Christianity or from any other
religion that you still conserve today and maybe you apply to your this new religion to Muslim, to
Islam?
Zan Christ 23:01
Um, I mean, Christianity is such a huge part of Islam anyway. So, it's kind of just like, you're
adding on to what you already know or what you already believe in. So, I mean, I don't I can't
think of anything like specific but I don't know. I don't know, for me though, I don't know,
because I left is Christianity. I don't want to say it's like a negative experience, but like, I don't
actively go for that like, like my niece and nephew sing in church all the time. And, I go listen to
them saying, but every time I go into the church, I kind of would rather not go so I don't know.
So, it's kind of like, I don't know if I would word it of like, I take from Christianity, I don't know
because I kind of still kind of like to go the opposite direction, but I don't know. Yeah. That's a
hard question (laughs) I don't know. I have no idea.
Barbara Sabino Pina 24:07
Totally fine. So, um, is there like maybe an advice or something that you would like to say to
those people that asked you convert to Islam or dead are in the transition of converting for an
any other religion to slam?
Zan Christ 24:24
Yeah, I mean, honestly, it was really difficult process because, you know, I mean, I was a
student so I think your life is a little crazy on your students really overwhelming time in your life
because your life is so focused on studies and it's so demanding. So, I think that was hard
because you know, all of my resources, we're also all students, so we're all like overwhelmed.
So, I really just need a lot of support like, when you first convert to another religion, you need a
lot of support, but you're not always able to get that because everyone's kind of busy. So that
can be kind of stressful. But just keep trying, I guess. I mean, I don't know. Try and look
elsewhere for resources eventually. I mean, my life is a lot better now because I'm married,
honestly, I mean, but that's not always going to work for everybody but I think I found somebody
who is Muslim and so like he's like my not my whole support system but like a huge support
system that when I was single, I didn't have so eventually you know, I graduated from with my
master's degree and then I met him so that's like how I I really felt like supported in the end
otherwise, just being a single person and depending on like your friends in school they're also
students was just it was pretty difficult. I mean, especially because you're learning so much like
how to pray that was like...the probably the most difficult part about converting is... you have to
learn the whole prayer in Arabic. And so that's stressful. I mean, I don't know the language at all.
So that was hard. Because one of my mentors, you know, was busy all the time. So I think that
was just a struggle, but just keep trying, you know, don't give up (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:20
So let's talk a little bit about your job right now. So, how do I just think your complex identity of
being European or American convert to Islam might help you or have helped you to make a
change in the world and how your daily job of multifaith work is related to this?
Zan Christ 26:41
Yeah, for sure. So, right now, like, I am kind of trying to like start my own business and like
brand of doing like multifaith work. My last job was that I was working on a college campus as
their multifaith leader working college students. So, that was like my last job. So, you know, it's
very much what I like to do what I do. And so what I'm wanting to do now is like go to
workplaces and teach them about like religious diversity and like how to be an ally to like
interfaith co workers. So that's what I'm working on right now. And I think, you know, I've done
trainings like, at my two jobs before this one that I used to work at the Science Museum, and I
did trainings on like, Islam and Muslims, and people just really don't know anything about Islam,
and they really crave that knowledge. So, when you teach them just super basic information, it's
huge. So I think that's, you know, I'm a bridge builder or whatever. I mean, that's really cliche,
but it's true. I mean, I kind of bridges the two worlds and I think, you know, most people in the
workplace in jobs that I've worked are also white people. So, I think having another white
person, teacher them, unfortunately, like they listen to me more, because you're kind of on the
same level of them. So I think it's really helped because I'm kind of like helping them figure out
like, Oh, what is this Islam thing? What are Muslims doing? So, I think it's an advantage in a
way, but it's kind of sad, you know, because it's racist. But, I guess I'm doing good. So it's not all
bad. So, I think it's a big advantage of bringing this life mysterious religion and culture to people
that may have an upbringing like myself, you know, where you just don't have exposure to any
type of diversity at all. So,
Barbara Sabino Pina 28:41
So basically, you talk... you talk a little bit about this, but like...when you do this talks, what is
your message? What is the message that you're trying to send? In... What...do you want to be
remembered for?
Zan Christ 28:57
Yeah, I just want to teach people like interface literacy and cooperation, just teaching them
basic information about world religions. I mean, 70% of people living in states are Christian. So
most people are Christian, or at least, you know, were raised in it, and maybe they're not
anymore. I just want to teach them basic information about like Islam, Judaism, Hinduism,
Buddhism, you know, other major religions and teach them that those are normal people,
normal religions, and just try and teach them literacy because I think people are really
uncomfortable talking about religion. I think especially in the past, because, you know,
expclusivism was really kind of a dominant thinking. And now people are more moving toward
inclusivism and pluralism. So, you know, pluralism, you know, if you are the listeners, I don't
know, or not familiar with pluralism. It's kind of like being more open and accepting to other
points of view versus like exclusivism, which is my religion is the only right one everyone else is
wrong kind of a thing. So I think the world is moving toward that but they just don't have the
knowledge to understand like specifically what other people think so I think that's pretty much
what I have been teaching people and continue to teach them and also learn like I said, I'm
diving into Hinduism right now like again, and it's it's really fun just learning about another world
religion that is not my own, I don't know because then I can understand people from around the
world.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:37
What approach you will do when you're trying to maybe get to other people to learn about new
religions, not just about Christianity, or maybe Islam, maybe about other religions, what would
you...What will be your approach to them, like how you will approach them so they can listen to
you instead of being rejected about what you're saying?
Zan Christ 31:01
Yeah, I mean, so like one present. Like I said, the presentation I'm working on right now is like
how to be an ally to your like interfaith coworkers. So, I'm kind of going through like, because
most people have jobs most people work. So I figured that's a good place to like target people
have teaching them about world religion. So I'm going through like, Judaism, Islam, Buddhism,
Hinduism, and then like a whole bunch of other world religions, like sikhism, and behind and like
teaching them about like workplace accommodations and that really helps because people
know then like, what kind of combinations they have to offer people. So like dietary restrictions,
you know, clothing, prayer and gender relations, like a lot of people don't want to like shake
hands or touch people of another gender. So, that's kind of like how I'm teaching them is like,
basic practical things day to day, not Like, necessarily like philosophical or like theological
things, I think that's really helpful to teach people because it's just more practical knowledge that
they can actually use day to day. So that's kind of what like, the presentation that I'm working on
right now, I guess.
Barbara Sabino Pina 32:17
Yeah. And since your time talking about presentations, projects, these things, like what project
maybe organization, maybe congregation, maybe part of just a big thing. Have you done? Or
have you been part of that you feel most proud of?
Zan Christ 32:35
Yeah. I think, you know, my last job. I worked at Hamline University and I did religious diversity
work there. So I really loved doing that.That was kind of like my dream job. But I guess, I don't
know. Two other things I'll mention...Well, during that, like I did, like a TEDx talk. I don't know if
you saw like the link and the bottom of my email signature, but like I did a TEDx on, like my
conversion story, basically. And that was something I'm really proud of, because the TED talks
are kind of a big deal. So, that was during my last job. So that's been like one of my proudest
achievements and I talked about, you know, everything I pretty much just talked about now, like,
"world religions are great, you should respect them, learn about them" um before then... I would
say the best experience of my life would be that I served as a guest Imam and Khatib at the
women's Mosque of America in Los Angeles, California. So again, that's when I was still a
Hamline. And so, basically, I love public speaking and I had donated some money to this
women's group, and they had sent me an email saying "thank you for your donation" or
whatever. And I recieved emails and backlinks. You know if you know any like that women's
leadership conferences I can attend or speak out, let me know. And they're like, why don't you
come speak here and I was like, Oh my gosh, this is the best thing ever, what are you talking
about so. So, anyway, so I spent like seven months researching a few topics and then
eventually, like, wrote the speech. And I went there and gave a Khutbah like a sermon like a
pastor would do in church on Sunday for one of their Jummahs services. And so that was just
the best experience of my life I, you know, really enjoyed. I think just writing the speech was
really helpful because I got to research a topic that I didn't know. I knew about it, but like surface
level knowledge or had heard things and I wanted to research them myself, and like really learn
in depth, that information so I wrote about women's empowerment within Islam. And the
recording is available online. If you're interested in listening to it, I think only like 20-30 minutes
but so that was amazing. Just doing the research alone, even before delivering the speech was
just such a phenomenal experience. Because I felt so empowered within my own religion and
then going there and delivering it and all the women gaining the knowledge too and being with
like minded women. I myself am very liberal progressive for thinking left leaning, which is really
a minority in Minnesota. Most Muslims are quite conservative, which is really difficult for me,
because I can't really be out as like a liberal and if you are people really just let you know that
you're wrong. And you're just like so that's really difficult, because there are a lot a lot of liberal
Muslims that live in the United States in the world, but there's not really a locally here. So, that
was really nice to just meet other people who think like I do in Los Angeles. I mean, California is
a lot more liberal anyway as a state but so that was amazing. And meeting the founder, she's
just phenomenal. I got to hang out with her. So that was the best experience of my life and I felt
like a continuation of like my family lineage because they were like all pastors. So I was like a
new Imam just for like a day. So that was just phenomenal. And then before then, my best live
experience before then was working at the Science Museum. I needed a place to pray and they
didn't have one. And several places that I worked at before then had places to pray. But this one
didn't, I was surprise. So, I worked there for two years on this project, and basically, I built a
quiet space there. So that's a huge accomplishment that I also felt really excited about because
I needed a place to pray. I wasn't the only one. So, I felt like the secular multifaith quiet space.
And, you know, it was like a prayer room and since I left, they've built two more spaces there.
So that's been phenomenal. But basically, I built like a Masjid or like a secular Masjid, Masjid is
a place of worship for Muslims, but that was, you know, like one of my ancestors, I think it was
like my mom's mom's dad's dad. He was a pastor in North Dakota and he built like 11
congregations in North Dakota, he died young, and so like, I felt like also like it was a
continuation of his legacy because I kind of felt like, it wasn't like an actual church, but it was like
a prayer space so people can pray every day. So those are probably like my proudest life
accomplishments is the TEDx being a Imam for a service and doing this. And then building a
quiet space would be like, all very interface initiatives.
Barbara Sabino Pina 37:47
So, you mentioned the talk.... the TED talk, can you talk a little bit more... a little bit more about
it, like...you mentioned a little bit how was experienced with maybe, what was the talk about
what did you what was the message you sent, how... a little bit more about how did you
prepared? Who helped you maybe a fact, fun fact about the experience.
Zan Christ 38:10
Yeah. So as somebody who has loved public speaking for a long time, I think doing a TED talk
is like the ultimate like, you've made it. It was a TEDx, which is not as cool like a TEDx
independently organized, but so. So,for years, I was like, "I really want to do something" and
then I was working at Hamline, which is also where I went to school. And some of these
students were like, we're gonna put on a TEDx conference, and I was like, "I have to apply" and
someone who like nominated me too, and they're like, "we heard that you are amazing. You
should like apply for this" like, and so I applied and it was a phenomenal experience. When I
first applied. I thought my topic was going to be, I wanted to do, how Islam and Muslim how
Islam and Mohammed or feminis. But ended up you know, my student actually it was all student
led us to college students, which was a really phenomenal experience. They were just amazing
students who organized it. But anyway, so one of the students that was like my mentor, she was
a college student and she was trying to help me with my speech. And eventually, like, I changed
my topic a whole bunch of times, because people pretty much when they meet me, like, only
want to hear about my convert story, which is fine, but like, that's the most fascinating part about
who I am. So that's basically what she convinced me to like talk about and so I talked about, like
my conversion story and, and then I kind of tried to like frame it in a lens of like, interfaith work is
important. You should be an ally into like, all world religions. So that's, that's pretty much the gist
of my talk. It's 11 minutes, so it's really short. So it's not like painfully long for people to listen to.
So that was the experience and It was phenomenal. I have like 20... 200,000 views or whatever.
So it's doing pretty well. But yeah, it was a it was a huge privilege and honor I was really grateful
to be selected. It was really competitive. But... yeah, the students were it was it was really
interesting being mentored by student you know, because usually, like I mentoring students, so
that was like, Cool role reversal, like my sister was assigned to. She was so talented and like, I
just felt like she was like a college professor. She's so smart. So I really I loved working with her
and I'm glad she, you know, helped me to like craft my topic because you know, if that's what's
most interesting about me, okay, fine, like I'll talk about that. But it's sometimes I get tired of
telling the story again and again, because it then it's like, that's the only thing people are
interested in you like, maybe it's, you know, an example of like someone who's African
American. It's like, that's the only thing you know that you might focus on them, and their You
know, they're like, I'm more than just African American, you know? So that can be exhausting.
But that's okay (laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 41:08
You mentioned also the Science Museum, right? So, um, what did you do there? Like, what did
you learn? Well, how was experience? What would you like to share about that?
Zan Christ 41:17
Yeah, I really enjoyed working at the Science Museum. The company itself is just phenomenal,
the culture is positive when I was working there, but like I said, you know, we didn't have a place
for me to pray. So that was just like something where I was like, "I'm gonna do this", like no
matter what, and I had like a low level job, but like, I was like, I don't care. You know, like, just
because I have a low level of power doesn't mean I can't use my influence as a human being to
get this done. So I think that was really cool and like really empowering for me to be like, it
doesn't matter if you're like this low level employee, you can still get like amazing things done.
So that was really cool. At the time, we had just gotten a new president and she was super,
super supportive. She was from California, of course, too. So she's very, like, used to a lot of
diversity, I think more than Minnesota. I'm very liberal and very accepting. So I wanted to talk to
her and I wanted to talk to her VP of HR. And I just was like, you know, "I want to get this done.
Can you help me?" and I didn't know what I was doing it first, of course, but I was just like,
eventually, I know, I'm going to get a quiet space. I just don't know like, how I'm going to get it or
like where it's going to be. So I worked with our VP of HR most of the time on the project, and
she was just phenomenal human being like super nice. And yeah, we did it like it was just, yeah,
it was like a two year long project is a long process. But yeah, I'm really proud that I did that. I
don't really, you know, talk about that very often because being from Minnesota, it's like rude to
like brag about yourself or whatever, but I wish I would probably talk about it more because I
think more more workplaces need to have like these quiet spaces because, you know, I mean,
it's very much a secular issue to like, employees just need like a quiet place to just like chill out
like on your break or whatever. So it's not just like Muslims need a place to go pray five times a
day or whatever, like, plenty of people are into like Buddhism and like meditating and such. So it
really helps like the staff so much, like I said, after I left, they've developed two more spaces, so
they have two for employees, like internal and then they have one external for the like outside
visitors. So, you know, I influenced them enough to like build tomorrow after I left so that was
just such a positive place to be, so... I'm really happy that they were open to you
know...achieving this resource for... for employees that I think really helped a lot. I was the only
Muslim working there.
Barbara Sabino Pina 44:10
So, you have worked with a lot of people during your life, right? Doing all these awesome
projects and awesome talks. So did you have any problems maybe, on opinions,while you were
doing this project because we know that when we're working, sometimes we're going to differ in
thoughts and you need to handle it, and to meet... like to find a way to just overcome the things
and work a good thing.
Zan Christ 44:41
So, yeah, I don't know if this is a good example, but like I said, I think the hardest thing is just
being a liberal Muslim in Minnesota, because, I mean, eventually I just had to go to LA but like, I
can't always just go to LA to like, hang out with liberal Muslims. That's probably been the best a
struggle for me is just finding a community that I can fit into. Because pretty much like I said,
most Muslims in Minnesota are super conservative and I just don't at all relate to them. So the
way that I have dealt with that is pretty much I just have like, all my liberal friends are like non
Muslims pretty much so my two best friends are actually both atheists. They're both not
religious, but they're like my liberal friends, one from grad school, one from the Science
Museum. And, so those are like my two best friends. And then I have my a lot of Jewish friends
also, like really liberal. And then I have some of my Christian friends. So I think I basically like
built this community of my network of people, but they're like, not Muslims. So that's kind of
been a struggle, I guess, like, so basically, I don't know, I just have had to look for like resources
elsewhere. So I don't know if that answers the question. But otherwise, yeah, the actual projects
I was doing, I don't know. I think just finding allies is pretty much. Also Yeah, just getting out the
same thing is like, you always have people that will hate you or discriminate against you or not
understand you. But I think the biggest way to battle that is just like, ignore your haters and just
like hang out with people who accept you and love you. Because eventually either they'll come
around or they'll just like, be a hate person, like, forever, like you can't change them. So just
focus on like, people are actually positive, which is why like for me, I think I was really drawn to
working with college students, because college students are just open like it's the first time
they're living on their own for the first time they want to like from their own opinions. They don't
necessarily want to be like the same person that they were growing up so they're really open to
hearing like, any and all information then based on that all these opinions and they'll form their
own opinion. So it's kind of why I got my master's in student affairs because I, I don't know, like,
I really love college students, they're just so they're open to hear all opinion like diverse
opinions, I guess. And then based on that they're smart enough to like figure out who they are.
So I think that's pretty much what I would I put my efforts in this people were actually open to
like, okay, like, "you're different from me, great!". Like, I respect that. I'm not gonna, like hate
you, you know? Because when you do...People who are resistant, it's best to I mean, I
personally, I just don't engage with them. I think other people really like conflict and like debate,
but I'm not like one of those people. So I mean, I'm definitely Midwestern, or we do not like
conflict. So I pretty much just choose to like just ignore them basically, which some people might
say is not healthy, but I'm like, whatever works for you. This just works best for me like No, it's
just not worth to get into. I'm just like, I'm happy for you. That's what you think like, I respect you.
I think some students like, I've spoken at Bethel, which is a pretty conservative school, but I
have a lot of like five liberal friends that work there that are professors. And I go into their
classes and like this one girl was just like, definitely an exclusive is like, she was just like, you
know, my religion is the one and only one it's cracked. And I was just like, you know, thank you
for sharing your opinion. And that was it. That's all I have to say. And that's fine. You know, I
don't know if she's changed it all, but you just have to be like, respectful to people. I think that's
what really Islam has taught me is just like when people are mainly used to like, be respectful,
but it's not always easy to just be like, okay, you're listening to me. Okay. Thank you, you know,
just like, I don't know, growing up that's not like really how it was like so. Talk, like I don't know.
So that's, that's pretty much what I would say.
Barbara Sabino Pina 49:07
So your college students, so what do you feel you learn from them? And what do you hope they
learn from you?
Zan Christ 49:14
Yeah, I learned a lot from college students. I mean, especially, I mean, young people in general,
I think, you know, the world is constantly changing. And college students have so much to offer
in terms of like, they communicate differently, I think, you know, like Snapchat and like, I don't
know, they're really open to adapting with technology. I think there's a huge advantage to that. I
think you can learn so much from young people. So yeah, definitely... Like, one of my favorite
college professors is always talking about how students are teaching them, you know, so like,
That's so cool. So it's like both ways, but, I mean, hopefully I can offer them something to and
I'm 35. So I definitely think I'm glad I'm older, like, I would never go back to be young again, that
was such a difficult time in my life, like, I do not want to be on. I'm really grateful that I'm older.
I've learned a lot. So, hopefully I can offer them something too but I mean, definitely, young
people are great. Young people that keep me energized to older people, we're just tired and
tired. Anyway.
Barbara Sabino Pina 50:30
So my final question would be, how... what does faith mean for you, and how this concept or
definition has changed over time?
Zan Christ 50:43
Yeah, I think, you know, religion or faith or whatever, I think has changed for me a lot. I think.
You know, growing up you know, I was Christian and the Christian environment and then I was
atheist and then I was Muslim. And I think, you know, it's changed so much over the years. But
even just being Muslim, like, when I first converted, like, I don't want to say I took it to the
extreme, but I was trying to like be like super devout. And I realized that wasn't really right for
me like I didn't have to be so hardcore of like to do like all these things. I think it's religion is
whatever you make of it. And so, for me, I kind of I don't want to say I'm secular because that
maybe sounds negative too. But I think I am not like super religious, honestly. My husband is a
lot more religious than I am and I don't know this just like are practicing level am happy with, like
my relationship with God. You know, and I don't know how it works for me. I'm happy. You
know, like, wear a headscarf. So people can like tell that I'm Muslim. I think that's important to
me, but I don't know if I wasn't wearing it. I think people would just be like, oh, there's another
Christian or atheist girl, I don't think you could tell that I'm Muslim. So I think that, to me is really
important, like an identity piece. And like dressing modestly, I guess. But I don't know. That's
something I've struggled with too. Because I've come to a point in my life where I really like,
Miss run like tank tops and shorts, because it's like, summertime, you know, and you want to be
like that. But that's just it was like a temporary thing. But yeah, like my religion is always
changing. Honestly. I mean, like five years from now, I'm sure. I'll be in a totally different place.
Honestly, I think I'm a really open honest communicator. Like if people judge me like, I don't
care, like I'd rather just be honest. So I think I'm happy with constant change and improving
myself honestly, because, you know, I've learned so much about like, what religion is not to me,
even though I thought it was supposed to be and I'm like, whatever that stuff's not important, like
maybe to somebody but like to me, I'm just like, chill. I don't know. Whatever...
Barbara Sabino Pina 53:22
Is there anything else that we didn't get doing this interview today that you would like to cover?
Maybe a comment additional thoughts?
Zan Christ 53:31
No, I mean, I think we've covered pretty much most of my life story. Yeah, just pretty much, the
TEDx thing, the Mosque thing and the quiet space, those are like the three things that my
recent life have really defined me and really something that I'm proud of, and I want to continue
to do more work like that. I don't know what my next thing will be. But, you know, like I said, I'm
trying to like start my own business. So hopefully, I can like, tour the country or the world and
like teach people about either Islam or world religions, because I think there's so much to learn.
Because, you know, I think people really, especially in the United States are really just not
exposed to the world's. I think depending on where you live some other places in the world,
you're a lot more exposed to like the rest of the world. But I think the US we have a lot to learn.
So I'm excited to try and like, teach what I can and also be open to learn from other people. So I
don't really have anything else to add that we havenât talked about
Barbara Sabino Pina 54:40
We're looking forward to that. Looking forward to that, to see you doing more job and awesome
things in the future. So thank you so much for your time today.
Zan Christ 54:50
Thank you. It was fun.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Tue, 3/9 1:31PM
22:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, talk, items, health, guest, volunteers, katie, homeless, companionship, giving, helps,
outreach, met, augsburg, care, understand, experience, sit, practicum, noah
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Yuni Yang
... Show more
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Tue, 3/9 1:31PM
22:53
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
commons, talk, items, health, guest, volunteers, katie, homeless, companionship, giving, helps,
outreach, met, augsburg, care, understand, experience, sit, practicum, noah
SPEAKERS
Samantha Gibson, Yuni Yang
S
Samantha Gibson
00:02
Hello, my name is Samantha Gibson, and I'm in AmeriCorps VISTA who works at Health
Commons. Would you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Y
Yuni Yang 00:11
Yes, my name is a Yuni Yang, I'm a DNP FNP track in Augsburg University.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:23
Great, I'd like to reaffirm that you consented to the storage of this interview and the
transcript at the library at Augsburg, where it will be made available to the public.
Y
Yuni Yang 00:33
Yes.
S
Samantha Gibson
00:34
Thank you. All right, to get us started, could you please tell me a little bit about where you
grew up and who you called family?
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 1 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Y
Yuni Yang 00:43
Where I grew up? I was born and raised in South Korea and I came to United States about
15 years ago. Um, my parents, um, still live in Korea, but, once- after I moved to America I
married. So I live with my husband, and my five years old son, and my mother in law and
my brother in law.
S
Samantha Gibson
01:18
Great, thank you. How did you end up at Augsburg?
Y
Yuni Yang 01:24
I was looking for a nurse practitioner program, and um, we're not- while I'm searching
program, I was very impressed about transcultural nursing here and different approach for
nursing and being a provider, such as the holistic care, transcultural, a lot of other
wisdoms from, um, different, um, like such as oriental wisdoms, not just the westernized
medical model. So, I started program here.
S
Samantha Gibson
02:10
And how did you become involved with the Health Commons?
Y
Yuni Yang 02:14
The past spring semester, I took a class that is politics of health care and also from the
practicum, our practicum hours, I picked the Health Commons because, um, the Health
Commons introduce, um, about homeless people. So I had opportunity to meet them, and
also the Health Commons, they have a different model of carrying people. So I- that’s why
I signed up
S
Samantha Gibson
02:53
And how well do you think your experience at Health Commons fit what with what you
were learning in that course?
Y
Yuni Yang 03:04
This is a great opportunity actually meet a real person, like a homeless person, and
engage with them and then, um, hear their stories and knowing about them as- through a
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 2 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
real person. Like a personal experience engagement, rather than just reading books or
watching videos. So, there's a really live, really close interaction, you know, so, I wanted to
know how we can help like a marginalized, such as the homeless or low-income people, as
a nurse, how we can care them. So that actually helped me- to introduce me different
aspect of nursing care and the different approach to client as a nurse.
S
Samantha Gibson
04:01
So is there something that you feel you'll take forward from this experience in your nursing
practice?
Y
Yuni Yang 04:07
I wish so, um, I think so. Um, actually- the director, Katie, um, Clark, actually professor, and
she- she showed me a different model to approach the homeless people such as, um, not
just diagnosis or giving some basic education or screening, but more like understanding
them, being with them, how we can approach them, how we can build trust, relationship,
not just giving or just treating their medical problems but basic approaches understand
them more, get to know them more, before we diagnosis people, we educate. So it really
helped me understand the population, marginalized population.
S
Samantha Gibson
05:16
So, has this experience or how has this experience changed any biases that you may have
had about people experiencing homelessness or marginally housed individuals?
Y
Yuni Yang 05:35
Previously, I thought they are mainly just seeking resource, seeking materials, items, um,
some free stuff, but now it’s more understanding they’re more complex, understand about
their background, how they became a- homeless. There's many other different stories,
background, not they are just lazy or just- not a failure but just environmental hardness, or
suddenly losing jobs, some mental health. So, each person have their stories, became
homeless, we can’t just judge, they are homeless now. They are just rely on to materials,
free place to sleep, or free food. It's not like that. They do have their own story. So, we
really need to understand their story. Get to know them. That helps them to moving
forward, or the Health Commons gave, um, it’s more like a support system. Like, um,
companionship. This, I felt like, is not more like another someone is the higher, someone is
just receiving, or giving and receiving, not- not position, but it's more like a
companionship, friendship, so that helped. I’m sorry, I actually forgot the questions while
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 3 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
talking. I actually want to see the questions.
S
Samantha Gibson
07:10
Well you- you talked about people's individual situations and how those- everyone has a
unique situation. What strengths did you learn or hear from some of the people that you
met?
Y
Yuni Yang 07:35
One of their strengths, um, I think, their resilience. Most of them are walking and find a
place to sleep, find a place to eat. They don't mind walking. One of guests told me he
does not have any high blood pressure issue because he walks a lot to find a place to go.
But very cold weather, I was there through the February to- February, March, April, so it's
very cold outside, but they will prepare gloves, hats, and thick boots and clothing and
they- it’s hard, but they seems to not- not to mind about being cold or walking outside. So
this can be their strengths, how they survive when it’s a hard environment, cold weather.
In the- one of the- ah, actually from the outreach, Katie- Katie and I met Noah, and
maybe can be changed now, but Noah, who sleeps on the street through the winter and
the first place I found him, actually, he slept underneath the- the hotel building but it's the
back of the hotel in the parking lot, but he just slept- he put a tent underneath about heat
that vent so that caused, the heat is constantly going out from- from the building. So
actually the spot he found was very warm through the entire 24 hours. So, there is a smart,
he found a really good spot to survive with the cold winter night. So that is their strengths.
S
Samantha Gibson
09:32
So you also talked about, um, how Health Commons has a sense of companionship or
friendship. It's sort of a supportive environment. How would you suggest we can better
accompany people on their journey of health? So, whether that be by attitude or, for
example, having longer hours or adding more outreach services?
Y
Yuni Yang 09:56
Right, right. Um, I wish I do know about original setting in the church, rather than trailer,
because I can’t compare how large of space actually we had in the church Health
Commons before. Um, but inside the trailer Health Commons they had about, I will say
maybe four to five chairs and when I- is the first day when I went there, I met one guest.
He's asking about eyedrops but I couldn't find it, because it’s my first day, so I ask him
come inside and then sit while I'm finding items. So he came in, was sat in the chair, while I
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 4 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
am finding stuff. So while he is- while sitting, I am able to start talking. So, I see that many
guests just stop by, just standing in front of the door, asking some items, some volunteersthey handout items, they are walk away. But if we ask them to come in and have a sit
while we are finding items, then we can kind of host more, the welcome more, not just a
standing just kinda getting items, just ask them sit, and maybe coffee or something to
drink, and then we can talk to more. So I actually had two experience, two guest. I asked
each guest, actually, come inside Health Commons, ask them sit, that kind of the starting
point, I am able to talk longer conversation and then both- of both of them looked very
welcomed. If I asked them to come inside. So, I would suggest maybe a larger area and
then more chairs and then if the volunteers kind of, not just handing the items, ask them
to come on in, have a seat, it’s maybe not necessary talk too long, kind of, time period, but
at least just they- they are welcomed. Have a seat, something like that.
S
Samantha Gibson
12:10
So you mentioned moving back into a more permanent space. Do you have any other
hopes for that space?
Y
Yuni Yang 12:29
I think- I heard they have a foot care before they move to trailer. I think, it’s also this really
good continuing service -foot care- and some like- some lobby, or some place can just sit
and talk together. Yeah if we can organize more items, make it easy to find something to
hand it to them. That would help.
S
Samantha Gibson
13:01
So you said kind of the organization of the items, right, make it a little easier?
Y
Yuni Yang 13:06
Organize items, um, yeah it’s not necessarily kind of a making a note how many items to
give. Oh, actually that was a little bit confused, how many items I can give. Diaper, I
understand, 10. The socks, one pair. The others and the underwears and creams, lotions, I
kind of- I’m not sure how many I can give. But I understand, beginning, Katie explained it’s
all free stuff, there’s no judgment, no restriction, we can give how many they wants to get.
But if it can be organized a little bit, a bit quicker, to help them to find some stuff. But
actually, it’s disorganized, so, it helps me to ask a guest to sit. So, I think either way is fine,
but if there’s some more organized, labeled items, maybe the host work
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 5 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
S
Samantha Gibson
13:59
Were there other things that could have been easier or better for the volunteer
experience? Was scheduling easy?
Y
Yuni Yang 14:07
Scheduling was easy, um, because I'm able to go to calendar, then make a schedule, that
was easy. Uh, parking was hard to find it, but it was during the construction. Um, I actually
recommend if someone volunteer, maybe, at least two times a visit, it helps, it really helps.
The first time is kind of exploring, what this place, and the second time, get to know more
about other volunteers and guests, and then a little bit comfortable. Um, engage more,
and also maybe longer hours also will help if we really want to talk to the person people if
you want to talk or having a conversation longer hours would help, too.
S
Samantha Gibson
15:02
So you said that you were at Health Commons for a few months, right?
Y
Yuni Yang 15:07
Um, At least five or six times through the-
S
Samantha Gibson
15:10
During those months- So did you do that just for your practicum hours, or did you choose
to come back more than was required?
Y
Yuni Yang 15:18
During those months. Um, I didn’t remain here for practicum hours, I wanted to come back,
once we moved to- back to the church, um, kind of knowing about more space and also,
spending more time to understanding them, and, um, yes.
S
Samantha Gibson
15:39
What do you think you gained being there over a longer period of time that someone who
only comes once might not realize or might not have had the opportunity to do?
Yuni Yang 15:57
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 6 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Y
Yuni Yang 15:57
I do have a more- I- I- I've seen more what other volunteers what they're doing and or so, I
kind of understand Katie's role or so, not just handing out on some items, but outreach or
so. And also, um, dynamics ifone concern arose, such as Noah’s case, kind of, some- somesome questions or problems arose: how we can solve problems together, such as other
volunteers or so, um, understand about what's going on some particular guest, what is the
particular concerns? So, we can gathering together talk to know, so I kind of understand
the more other issues, not just seeing guests one time, just giving some items. So, I dowould see more dynamics, if you come more, and the more broad role about the Health
Commons.
S
Samantha Gibson
17:02
How might your experience apply to another type of work setting a hospital setting or
wherever else you work?
Y
Yuni Yang 17:17
I'm working in primary care setting right now as a triage nurse, then on the back to the
beginning about each one has story, background. That really helps me, not kind of
judging client or patient with what they are now. So, and also trying to understand more,
and also the future practice, how we can open the door to the community, how we can
combine with community. Not just like the current model, model about provider and
patient, how we can more engaging with community. Maybe start is, maybe small,
maybe- maybe footcare, the beginning, but it's probably the future have a more care
added outreach, um, mental health, the other resource connection. So it's hard to see
right now but it's a beginning with the core- core concept, the Health Commons about
building relationship, building trust relationship, companionship, friendship. That can
apply any other my practice in the future, because those concept we are missing, we
can't- we can’t apply with the current medical system, um, very busy and then we have to
make, um, money, profit, everything we have to do it, but this is a totally different
concept. But we can apply in any community, any care setting, any population, starting
this basic concept hospitality, build interest relationships. So, I think I can apply many
other practice in the future.
S
Samantha Gibson
19:14
You talked a little bit about some of the people that you interacted with, but is there a
specific story that you could share from your experience at Health Commons that really
stuck with you?
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 7 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Y
Yuni Yang 19:37
Maybe two things come in mind, first one is, um, I- I already introduced kind of how I can
started talking with one of the homeless people, then once they are- they are really- theythe two person I engaged, they like to talk. They want to talk, um, not just, well, I have to
writing a paper with this practicum, but I try not too much interviewing someone, but just
being with them, just to sit next by, just talking about their life, their family, what they like
to eat. Um, and then, what is the future? Even, people think they maybe don't have a
future, but I found someone had, um, still working three- three different jobs and having
hope about the future, um, kind of building a relationship with family or go back to family.
So just being with them, present, and just to sit next by and talk to them, sharing about
time, just giving time, is really precious. Um, hopefully, we- each one has their life journey. I
have my life journey, the person, the homeless person over there, he's on life journey, but
we met one moment and then sharing the journey and get close. I only have just one
experience. I mean, one time talking but I do see Katie actually build up more relationship,
longer relationship. That really helps someone's life. And I wish I could do that. But there is
two moment I sat about over 30 minutes and then talking about each of ours life, that
really stuck me. I had a really great experience.
S
Samantha Gibson
21:40
Is there anything else you'd like to talk about anything we didn't ask about?
Y
Yuni Yang 21:51
I would say, every volunteers there have really same kind of mind, same attitude. I'm
surprised. Each one is very open and very supportive, really nonjudgmental, and, um, just
everyone I met there is- even though all different background- they are there for the same
goal, kinda of. We are here to not just a serve you, we are here to be with you. So, that is,
I'm really surprised and then I really enjoyed actually talking with other volunteers too, not
just guests. I mean guest, I really enjoy the time together. So, it's really good place to kind
of the meeting, not only- not for the guest, but other volunteers and the experience of
what their heart is, so.
S
Samantha Gibson
22:45
Great, great. Thank you for sharing. Thank you for being here with me.
Y
Yuni Yang 22:50
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 8 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Thank you
Oral History with Yeunn Hee Yang, 2018
Page 9 of 9
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from... Show more
Unknown Speaker 0:03
Today is December 3, my name is Sahra Tobe. This is for the Muslims in
Minnesota project for Augsburg University. If you could please introduce
yourself to the recording and just say a little bit about where you're
from.
Salma Ahmed 0:16
My name is Salma Ahmed. I'm from Minneapolis, Minnesota, but originally my
family's from a city in Somalia called Kismayo. They immigrated here about
25 years ago to America, but specifically Nashville, Tennessee, and after
living in Nashville for about two months and hearing that there was a
growing Somali community in Minneapoli, they moved here on their own like,
besides the asylum, they were given to Nashville. And once they reached
Minneapolis, they lived on Franklin Avenue for about two years.
Sahra Tobe 0:58
So you spoke a little bit about your family coming to the States. How long
ago did they come?
Salma Ahmed 1:04
Yeah, well, they came about 25 years ago, it'll be 25 years on August 31,
2020. I know the date specifically. But, um, ya know, so they came here
because of a civil war that was growing in Somalia, it wasn't not a
growing, but like a civil war that still continues to happen till this
day. And so by that by the time it started, three of my older siblings
were already born. And they had my, my other brother was on his way. So a
couple years after, so still couple of years before they came to America,
but they didn't want to raise their children in those conditions. And
like, obviously, they were looking for them to have the opportunities that
they were given growing up, and if not more. So once they came here, they
settled down on Franklin Avenue, like I said, and they lived in a
townhouse for a while, then after that they lived in another house. And up
until like our current house, so they were like lucky enough to have a
house built for them by Habitat for Humanity in like city center,
Minneapolis.
Sahra Tobe 2:18
And you guys are currently at that house still?
Salma Ahmed 2:20
Yeah, we're still at the house. So like, it'll be 20 years in this house
this may.
Sahra Tobe 2:25
So quickly, I kind of want to ask you a little bit about the neighborhood
that you grew up in. What was the neighborhood like and what do you
remember about it from your childhood?
Salma Ahmed 2:36
So it was always a predominantly white neighborhood still to this day it's
predominantly white. It's just it's just growing out to have like more
immigrants, more people of color in general. But I didn't go to school in
the area myself like I went to school in Minneapolis, I grew up in
Minneapolis Public Schools, but like my older siblings, I live right next
to a high school called Roosevelt High School, but don't come to my house.
I'm just kidding. But um, yeah, so my older siblings went there but like,
just like with like, a lot of other like city center high schools, like
becomes really dangerous, like fights break out and like parents, parents
don't know why that happens. So they just take their kids away from the
school. So I went to a high school still in my area, but like a little bit
further away called South High School. But yeah, like growing up in,
growing up in the same district, I always like went to school with like,
predominantly people of color just because of like geographically where
they were located. And it just made more sense for those demographics to
come to those schools.
Sahra Tobe 3:42
So can you speak a little bit about you said your family decided to come
to Minnesota because of the growing Somali community here. How did that
contribute to your childhood was it Do you remember like maybe being on a
lot of Somali people you when you were younger? Did that does not occur to
you as much as it mattered to your parents? What do you remember of that?
Salma Ahmed 4:05
Um, okay, well, what I remember was like of course my parents always cared
about like being around like, people that were similar to them just
because like who doesn't want to be around someone who really can
understand their experience where they don't have to explain why things
are the way they are too. But like my parents cared mostly about like
being around like other Muslims because like when it comes down to like it
no matter how much someone is similar to you like if they don't have the
same faith as you then like, you're not the same. But so like, for me like
as a kid, it didn't really matter to me I didn't like make many Muslim
friends in school however, like I always went to Dugsi, which is like for,
some people don't know what Dugsi is. It's like Sunday school, but on like
the weekend, Saturday and Sunday. And essentially, you learned the Quran
like, mainly memorization like I know is like, I don't know if it's like
every Muslim community but in the Somali community it's very, very, very
focused on memorization. And yeah, so memorization and then also like some
Islamic studies but it's like mainly memorization like learning like
having homework, and then passing it to your teacher we call it like
basically teacher testing on your memorization like how you pronounce
things. There's this thing like in the ruling of the Quran like reading
it's this thing called Tajweed. So you kind of get tested on, Tajweed is
like grammar and so you kind of get tested on like how well you know your
grammar how well you memorize and things like that.
Sahra Tobe 5:35
Yeah, so in terms of going to Dugsi and things like that, did you, how did
you feel growing up balancing school five days a week and then also Dugsi
on the weekends?
Salma Ahmed 5:46
So I, I didn't know, I didn't balance it. So I didn't realize how much I
actually had on my plate until like, I was like in early High School,
maybe Late Middle School because it was just such a routine from such a
young age like you be essentially essentially start going to Dugsi like
when you start going to school like around five, six years old. You start
like learning your alphabet you start learning like small words like an
English terms this is but so I really didn't know how to balance it
because it was like all I ever knew. So I never knew like a free weekend
or like I never knew like a sleeping in morning because every day like I
was on the go. And it wasn't like, I favored one or the other. Because
like me, I love Dugsi, like growing up. I know, like a lot of kids that I
grew up with even my siblings. They didn't like love Dugsi, because like,
Oh, it's like very firm. It's not as easy as school where like American
school you have like a lot of leeway and like you have like recess and
lunch time and I mean, lunch is not a privilege, but you know, it becomes
one when you have recess with it. But, um, so yeah, like I loved it
because I was really good at memorization. And I was always, like,
appreciated by my teachers for like, being good at it. And while like, I
was good at school, like I it was just like you were among the other kids,
like everyone was good at school, like it's hard not to be good at third
grade multiplication because like the teacher, if you're not good, then
the teacher will make sure you catch up to be good, you know? And so Dugsi
like wasn't like that because there was like always, it wasn't age based
It was like more like level based. So once my mom realized like I was like
actually doing well in Dugsi, she put me in an accelerated program called
Tahfeed. Where like you're in Dugsi for like your whole day. This is like
also why I didn't know that I was like, handling it. Because I was so used
to something like my I was in Tahfeed like, from the age of nine to I
would say maybe like eight to 11 because um, like, it, Okay, so first it
was accelerated, but also like, it really like tested your knowledge which
I like I really like to be challenged when I know I'm good at something
which is kind of egotistical to say but I'll say it but um so yeah so
you're like challenged and also like you learn more than just memorization
of the Quran but like Islamic Studies and like you're also with people who
like also enjoy Dugsi because there's like Dugsi you can survive like not
liking it because like your parents send you there you can like pass your
Ashar, Ashar is what we call the homework but you can pass your Ashar and
then like go home and like move on like get to your next day. Like in
Tahfeed, you can't not want to be there. So that's why I liked it because
my peers were like just as interesting in learning the Quran and the Deen.
Deen is like our faith. Deen is like what we call it Islam. But um, so um,
yeah, like so that's why I really liked it because like, it was so it was
so fulfilling. To like, know that, like I love my faith and like I've
loved it from like a really young age I've loved learning the Quran and
I've loved like learning about the Deen because I just find it to be so
just and so right like, and I'm so happy like I was born into Islam. So
when like I had classmates and peers who enjoyed it just as much as me.
And I can't share that like relationship with kids at school because like
I said, Before, I wasn't friends with Muslim kids at school, or I can't
share with like my siblings, since they didn't like Dugsi, like me and my
older sister were in the program together. But we also have like a four
year age gap, which is what I liked about the program like you were tested
on your knowledge not your age. And school kind of limits you in that
aspect, where it's like, you can't just be smart, it's you're in this
grade. So like, this is the level you're at, and it was never like, hey,
like you're so smart. Like let's challenge you in this aspect. Elementary
School, nobody's trying to challenge you. Like Middle School, no one's
trying to challenge you. You really only have like room to challenge
yourself once you become an adult. So and like, you can't beg for a
challenge because once it gets too hard, then it becomes 'oh, but you
wanted this'. So that's what I really appreciated about Dugsi growing up,
it was like different in that aspect from school.
Sahra Tobe 10:09
You spoke a little bit about being really good at Dugsi to the point where
your mother had you moved up into like an accelerated course.
Salma Ahmed
Yeah.
10:16
Sahra Tobe 10:17
So that shows that, like, a certain level of like, involvement from your
parents on your parents end. Would you say they were as involved in like
your schoolwork and things like that?
Salma Ahmed 10:29
Yeah. So growing up, like, each of my parents kind of had like a focus.
Like my mom, she's, um, she was always invested in like my Dugsi learning,
making sure I learned the Quran like even till this day. Like now I
finished the Quran and I don't go to Dugsi anymore. But my mom she's
always like telling me like I should read because, like, I don't want to
like get punished for like learning something and not utilizing it, like
utilizing the resource that God gave me. And so, like, I appreciate my mom
in that aspect because she's like, involved in every aspect of my life,
like she cares about a lot about my schooling, but she herself wasn't
given that much of an education growing up, so she couldn't help me as
much. But like she always like was trying to like give me resources like
send me to the library to learn. Like, I'm always like, asking, like, for
tutors for me, like she was always like vouching for me and like, kind of
like, being my lawyer, like in my educational life, whether it was Dugsi
or school, but my dad, he himself, like, cared a lot about Dugsi, he's
like involved, he was always like, taking us and picking us up and
whatever. But he cares, like for sure a lot about school. Like, my
education, like my dad's always asking me what my major is, like, what my
GPA is, what I'm planning on doing with it, just like making sure like I'm
driven in school, but um, and like not to say my dad isn't as religious as
my mom or like, he doesn't care about the Deen as much as my mom is just
that like he himself works at a school in Minneapolis Public Schools, so
like He cares. For sure, like education is what he's geared towards, but
like he also wants me like be a good Muslim like practice and pray and
things like that. But like my mom for sure is active in like Dugsi more
than school, because that's like what she knows most.
Sahra Tobe 12:18
So do you think that your parents involvement differ between like you and
your, like your older siblings and do you think it connects to like how
long they've been in the States?
Salma Ahmed 12:28
Yes. 100%. Like, I really appreciate like my stance in my family because I
know it's so different from my older siblings. Like, out of the eight kids
my mom had, I'm the sixth so I have two younger sisters and then five
older siblings, and out of all of us, just me and my older sister finished
the Quran and that's because of like my mom's opportunity to be so
involved in our, like, Islamic education. So, like 100% I think it differs
because of like, they couldn't worry about putting food on the table,
while also worrying about if you pass your Ashar that week, which is not
to say that like, it was by choice or anything like that, but it was just
like is very difficult like trying to vouch for your livelihood with also
your, like children's education, you know, like things that are more like,
less of like a commodity, you know, like, you know, education is really
important, but that's definitely, you know, a privilege which, you know,
like, not everyone has. So it's, it's very, very difficult. Like, I know,
my parents are much more involved even in the way that I saw them raise my
older siblings, like from young kids, like I've been aware of how they
were raised. And like, I know, I'm raised in a more... I have more leeway,
let's say like then they ever had, like my parents were very firm with
them because like they're more scared of the world of what they didn't
know. And so I think that contributes a lot to like the education I've
been given. Both with Dugsi and with school. Yeah, for sure.
Sahra Tobe 14:06
And then earlier you spoke a little bit about how you didn't feel like you
were like you were busy with both Dugsi and school until you got a little
bit older once you did begin to get a little more busy, what kind of what
were your responsibilities kind of looking like, I know you said you have
two younger sisters and just going to school and Dugsi and how that
differed from maybe some of your classmates that didn't have to go to
school on weekends. As you said earlier, you didn't have a lot of Muslim
friends in school. So as you got older, you had a lot of a lot more
responsibilities and things to deal with how how kind of was your
experience with that?
Salma Ahmed 14:49
So yeah, my Like I said before, yeah, I do have two younger sisters. And
thankfully like I haven't had to be like, extremely responsible for them.
Because our age gap is so small, they're only two years younger than me.
They're twins. So, like, I've had to be like somewhat responsible for them
just like being mature and like being the next one in the house that like
sometimes I would have to like babysit them like, just things like that,
but it was never like, I was never like, held accountable for them. Like
my, some of my older siblings were held accountable for me and them. So I
definitely think that that contributed a lot to why I always felt like
nothing was like so overwhelming because my home responsibilities were
like, really like minimal in comparison to my siblings. So when I looked
at my classmates, who weren't Muslims responsibilities, I just thought
they were extra chillin. Like I was chillin because I didn't have, you
know, like these responsibilities that non immigrant kids don't have any
way. So like, I would just think about it in a way like I'm not even
overwhelmed because I don't have younger siblings to look after. I don't
have bills to pay. You know, like things like that, but I still had to,
like, clean and like make sure everything was okay. But even those
responsibilities were minimal because I had the comparison of so much and
so little. So like, what I had to go to Dugsi and school, like for my own
education for my own well being was like, if anything, I was thankful like
that I only had to worry about my homework for Dugsi and my homework for
school. Like it was it like it definitely gave me like, some perspective
and it made me like more appreciative as a person because because, like, I
know, like, things could be completely different because I've saw them be
completely different.
Sahra Tobe 16:37
And then, so as you move up in your education, like high school and things
like that, did you see your social circles kind of changing in any way?
Salma Ahmed 16:47
Yeah, for sure. Um, so like, I have like Muslim friends just from Dugsi
itself. But um, I, in high school, I actually had to move away from like
my non Muslim friends. Because like, they just like, it didn't go from
like oh 'hanging out' it was like they're kind of drinking and like, doing
activities that I as a Muslim like it was contradicting with like who I
was to the core, which was a Muslim. So they kind of like made the
decision for me really like to make Muslim friends so like, that's when I
made Muslim friends and thankfully, I went to like a well versed high
school, high school, so it wasn't like difficult to like make Muslim
friends and it wasn't the fact that I didn't know other Muslims or like, I
wasn't cool with them. It was just the fact that we just never ended up
being friends. And so Um, so yeah, like, I just kind of like started
making the connections I already had and like furthering them so yeah,
like that's, that's the time when I kind of like realize like my, if you
you are who your friends are. And if your friends like aren't-- I'm a firm
believer of that, of you are your friends are because if someone's
character like completely contradicts your own, then how can you like
stand by and like, let them be that way? Or like, you know, like, kind of
per- make that permissible, you know what I mean? And so, um, so yeah,
like, that's when, like, I realized, like, it's really good for me to have
Muslim friends because, like, that kind of limits the temptation of sin in
my like, specific case, like, I didn't want to ever be tempted to do
something. And like, while Muslims are also sinners, you know, like, at
least like, I wouldn't have felt peer pressured by the people I was
friends with, like, they were doing something and I would say, Oh, I don't
want to and like they wouldn't say why not because they know I'm a Muslim.
You know what I mean? Like, every time I felt like, every time my non
Muslim friends were doing something, I'd say I don't want to they'd say,
Well, why not? And I have to explain my whole faith again, and I'm like,
everyday explaining my faith like a scholar. I didn't have the time.
Sahra Tobe 18:53
Did you, um, So you talked about how that was kind of the driving force
for you to to kind of cultivate a group of Muslim friends. Did you have
any experiences with maybe your Muslim friends looking to engage in, in
the quote unquote, regular teenage activities?
Salma Ahmed 19:08
Yeah, for sure I um, Yeah. Like, you know, like, that's when I really
realized friends come and go. Because like, it kind of gets to a point
where it's like, yeah, okay, like you respect that I don't want to do it.
But like, then it's like, we don't even hang out anymore because you're
doing something I don't want to do. You don't want to do what I'm doing.
Because it's not that these regular activities or whatever, so kind of
just becomes like an ongoing loop of so like, you don't see each other
anymore. And then just naturally, people grow apart based on things like
that. So I'm like, thankfully, I'm like, I've always been like, kind of,
well, like grounded in my own headspace. Like, I've always had a good head
on my shoulders because of my older siblings. Like when you see other
people in your life that you care about, like making mistakes, or like go
through things that you'll probably go through just because it's like the
Circle of Life here, whatever anywhere. You kind of like expect that. So
then like when it comes and happens to you kind of like know how to handle
and you kind of you know how to get through it. So that's what like, why
never felt belittled by people telling me 'Oh, you're not like willing to
do this, you're not willing to do that' like, because I'm really not. And
I know you're gonna ask me if you almost feel like a psychic. So, um, so
yeah, like that's kind of what guided me like really was having older
siblings that went through the same life as me here, like I know it was
probably way more difficult for them because they they were literally
taken from the only life they knew like, I mean, they were all super young
when they left but it was all they were familiar with. And coming to like,
here, which gives you a complete culture shock and like with parents that
have never experienced anything like in the slightest of that way, like
they're just kind of focused on surviving. Like, it's really really hard
to guide so thankfully I was in that position. I just kind of watched it
from hindsight.
Sahra Tobe 21:06
Do you, are you still in close contact with your siblings and how's your
family life like now?
Salma Ahmed 21:12
Um, yeah, so all my siblings are old people. So um, my oldest brother is
35. And yeah, he's married he lives in Minnesota. All my siblings except
for one live in Minnesota. So my oldest brother Yeah, he lives in
Minnesota. He, I'm, were, in like pretty close contact, like not on a day
to day thing. But like, we have pretty good relationship. I ask him for
like life advice. He, he loves school. He's like my dad. He's always
talking about, like, what I want to do, how he's like making connections.
So I have like, a little bit of an easier experience, which like, he's
always been, like, helpful, like with things like that. He's always like,
kind of like couple steps ahead. And so he's always willing to help me
with anything I need. And he's like, always trying to like move mountains
for me. So it's super nice. And then I have another brother, aw this makes
me sad, and then I have another brother who's also married. He's not as
helpful- I'm just kidding. But yeah, I definitely see like the difference
in maturity between my siblings just watching them. But yeah, my other
brother, he's also married, he lives in Minnesota. He works. We have a
pretty good relationship. Like it's not like anything like where like, we
talk on a day to day basis either. But, um, he has like, for sure, like
flaws that, you know, like I kind of have a hard time getting over
sometimes just like in general, like, you know, people aren't, you, you
don't get to sculpt people in your life, how they are like your family's
your family. You don't get to choose them for a reason. But um and then I
have another sister, she's the one who doesn't live here. She lives in New
York. We have an amazing relationship. She's actually like, one of the
closest people I have in my family. She's like, a great person and she
like, honestly, she's like my second mom, like she for sure guided me more
than anybody else like, my brothers like yeah, like they, like I kind of
looked at their experiences but they didn't guide me in any way like, you
know like they're kind of boys will be boys and boys take a longer time to
grow up but um yeah like she's like for sure yeah she's like for sure like
contribute a lot to the kind of person I am today. And like yeah we talked
very frequently especially considering the fact that the only contact we
have is like a phone but she like visits a lot and like I visited like the
place she lives so it's cool. And then I have another brother who's like
he's like still growing up. Like Like I said before boys take way longer
to grow up and girls and what I've seen, especially in immigrant families,
and so like, I haven't like taken anything from him to be completely
honest. Like he's in my like, headspace. He's kind of like, the same age
as me. If not younger than me, even though we have like a seven year age
gap. And then I have a sister like, I'm the closest with her out of all my
siblings. She's four years older than me. She's the one I mentioned before
like that we went to Tahfeed together. But um, she, yeah, like, we're like
very close. Sometimes, like, my other sister makes like jokes like I'm the
older sister in the relationship just because like, in any aspect of my
life, I'm like a realist more than anything, like more than an optimist
more than, like, someone who like uses their imagination alot, whatever. I
like, I see things for what they are and like I don't try to like let
emotions cloud my judgment. And so she's she's like more of an optimist.
So that's why it's funny that like, she's asking me for advice and stuff
even though she's like, ahead of me in life. And then I have those two
twin sisters I was talking about earlier and like, when people say the
youngest and families like are definitely the same and no matter how old
they are, like, I definitely see that especially my own family. Because
like, you know, they're like tested the least, they have like no one else
to look after which, thankfully I didn't have anybody to look after but
they were so young to not see my other siblings grow up that they're kind
of like, still like looking for guidance, which like we all try to give
them as much as we can. But yeah, like all my siblings, like we're in
pretty good contact but there's for sure more I talk to most. Like
especially like the three I live with. I talked to them more frequently
because I see them the most frequently. And my sister in New York, I see
her or I talked to her the most because if not, then we don't have any
contact and you know, boys will be boys.
Sahra Tobe 25:36
So, you spoke a lot about your relationship with your siblings. How is
your relationship with your, with your parents? And do you feel like
there's a tight relationship there as well?
Salma Ahmed 25:47
Yeah, I I for my mom and I, we definitely have a tight knit relationship.
I'd say especially like considering now that I'm older, I can definitely
admire everything she's done for me and I can appreciate it. Which like, I
always have known, like, the place my mom has my life like she's always
been held to high esteem in my head. But the only thing now is the fact
that like, she can, like talk to me about like, the problems she's having
and things like that where I'm like more of an adult. Like, she doesn't
put weight on me or anything but like, it's, you know, like, she makes it
more clear she doesn't like shelter me from things like she used to, which
I appreciate because like, I hate feeling like, babied, especially in
situations where like, I can fully comprehend like I'm a full functioning
adult, you know, but um, like parents don't see that all the time. I mean,
like, even like in immigrant families sometimes they'll treat you like an
adult sometimes they treat you like a child, which it doesn't really make
sense because pick one. Like sometimes my mom will tell me I'm 25,
sometimes she'll tell me I'm 12 but um, even though I'm only 19. But, but
um so ya no, my mom and me, we definitely have a tight knit relationship
like considering everything, she's like, always like been, like I said
before, like vouching for me and like always been like a great resource to
me like in any way she possibly can, she always tries to like move
mountains for me. My dad and me we have like a pretty good relationship
too, like now that I'm like growing up more like I definitely see like the
flaws he has but like he's like still a great person like the older people
are the more they don't change. So like I try not to hold him to to like
much of an expectation either like I don't want like to be the reason that
he's unhappy because I expect him to change but he's been like this for
the fifty-four years he's had kids. So like yeah, we're also pretty
close, like he knows about like, the things that are happening in my life
because I try to like keep him involved. Because I never want him to feel
like I'm like looking at him as just like another parent like second to my
mom when like it ends up being that way anyway because my mom so involved
like, voluntarily and like sometimes I have to put him in the loop. But
um, yeah, like, my dad for sure like tries to be involved in our lives and
like he tries to like, help with what he can like financially and things
like that. So I appreciate that a lot.
Sahra Tobe 28:14
Do you remember your family having any, like special traditions or kind of
a little get together things that they did? Like maybe on holidays or
things like that growing up?
Salma Ahmed 28:24
Yeah. So my family we're like, very, like religious family, like my mom
like, we never like really celebrated birthdays or anything like that,
like because not like, through my parents and my older siblings would
celebrate birthdays with us, because like, they saw other people
celebrated birthdays, so they would try to like, make our transitions like
smooth, you know, like, between, like, the different worlds we come from
or whatever. But um, ya no, every year since I was like a kid. My dad's
sister lives in Minnesota as well. So she would invite us all over for
Thanksgiving. But it wasn't like we were celebrating Thanksgiving, we all
just happen to have the day off. And she would make like Somali food, not
like Turkey. So like, that's the tradition we've always had just because
all her kids were off of work and school. And so were we. And my dad was
off of work, too, because he works at a school. So he's on the same
schedule as us. So it was always really nice. So I would always look
forward to that, because like, if I didn't get to see them often, like
because people's lives got busy, then I would know that we'd see each
other on Thanksgiving
Sahra Tobe 29:29
Do you remember what your parents did for living when you're growing up?
And like, do you remember maybe like,
Salma Ahmed 29:34
what they did for what?
Sahra Tobe 29:36
For a living like,
Salma Ahmed 29:36
oh, for a living? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So my mom, she always stayed at home
because she like, for like 18 years. She was raising kids. So she, oh,
yeah, she stayed home like she didn't like I said she didn't really get
much of an education like she didn't get an education at all in America
besides like, some ELL classes she took for a couple of years when I was
younger and then she was like, always worried about like us not speaking
our native tongue. So we would always speak Somali in the house. And that
was like the main reason she stayed at home because she didn't want us to
lose our language. Because she was afraid that if she, if she worked, or
if she like, went to school and stuff, thankfully, like my dad, like,
worked a stable enough job where we didn't have to, like depend on the two
incomes. But um, yeah, she was, she was always worried about she was
always worried about us and losing our native tongue. And if we talked
only amongst each other, we would talk in English, because that's what we
spoke at school. And so like, it's funny because even though I grew up in
America, like was born and raised here. When I went to school I only spoke
Somali because I wasn't allowed to speak English at home. And that was
like up to until like, the age of like, 15 we weren't allowed to speak
English. And so, my dad though he always worked at an elementary school of
like, as far as like, I can remember, he worked another job before I was
born, but I can't remember what it was. But I remember he, he's always
been like the liaison for like, Somali students, but he also like he's
really really good at math. And that's always been like his main strength
so he also helps kids struggling with math. So he's like kinda like a math
teacher for elementary kids. So it's like nice that's why I was like
always accelerated. And I'd be like math 90, reading 40. I didn't know
English but I knew math. But um, yeah, so yeah, those were the main things
that they did for a living. It's kind of funny now to say my mom's a stay
at home mom cause, like, she stays at home for herself now.
Sahra Tobe 31:42
So going off of you speaking about like wanting to keep your language and
how that was a big part of your upbringing. I know like your, your mother,
that was a point of like, a point of importance for her there. Did you
ever feel like growing up like you were juggling your identity as a Somali
Amerian, did you ever feel at times that maybe one was slipping?
Salma Ahmed 32:01
Yeah, I for sure hated speaking Somali. Yeah, no, I like I was ashamed
because it sounds like sounds so ugly. And when my mom like we would be in
stores and me and my siblings talking English my mom would say 'no like
you see people speaking Spanish, you see, you see like all these people
speak in their native tongues and you guys are having them understand your
conversations like, do you see how stupid you look?' And she was not lying
because like people were really all up in our business when we spoke
another language so now like I'm for sure thankful because I know like,
I'm very fluent in Somali now where like, a lot of my peers aren't, even
my younger sisters. Like they still kind of struggle with Somali and they
kind of like pronounce words wrong, just like grammar errors but um, yeah,
like I'm very, very thankful now because, like it's a strength to be
bilingual and not a weakness, but I always found it to be a weakness. But
um, that's like, part of the reason I struggled was because like Like I
said before, like kids growing up would tell you, like, oh, you're not
even from here obviously. And I'd be like, why do we speak another
language, if we're American? Like it did not click for me, I'm like, What?
Is this just me? But um like, also like part of my tradition like, I,
like, traditions, I should say, like, I would hide from my kids at school
and stuff just because I didn't want to be different, so bad, because
like, they made it be something so negative, but like Now, obviously, like
with life experience, wisdom, and all that jazz, you realize that like
being the carbon carbon copy doesn't like get you anywhere, like, even
when you're applying for jobs, they want something different. So and they
want someone who speaks another language, someone who can like reach
multiple communities. Whereas like, if you only speak English, and you all
look the same, then what's the, what makes you yourself what makes you an
individual?
Sahra Tobe 33:49
So that, so you spoke a little bit about your, your, your identities as a
Somali and then as an American, how did your identity as Somali and Muslim
translate in your life? How did they maybe coincide or contradict?
Salma Ahmed 34:04
Yeah, I feel like for sure they always like aligned for me. Just because
like, I've never met a Somali that wasn't Muslim. I've always been like,
able to at least like if I didn't have like this I would at least have
like Somali people, you know what I mean? So I, I always like grew up with
even like at Dugsi, like I didn't go to Dugsi or our local Masjid, they're
all Somali, like, things like that. I always feel like those two
identities kind of went hand in hand for me like, sometimes when like, my,
like, culture would contradict my like, oh, like, Somali dance, Somali
music like that would contradict my religion. I'd be like, kind of
confused, like, when we were younger, my mom would play like Somali music.
And I would like learn in Dugsi that music was haram. And I'd be like, so
Somali music isn't haram. Because like, I'm like, there's no way my moms
playing music and this was like, I'm thinking like parents have no flaws
at this age. So I'm like, I know my mom would have played music if it was
not haram. Yeah. So I said, hmm, I put my Sherlock Holmes hat on and I
realized moms can be sinners too. But now it's funny because I brought
that up to my mom the other day and she's like 'I was learning too', it's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 35:22
So, it sounds like your parents definitely played a large part in your
upbringing. Did you know your grandparents, or great grandparents?
Salma Ahmed 35:30
No, actually, I've never met any of my grandparents. My dad's parents, so
his mom died when he was four years old, and then his dad died when he was
18. And then so my mom didn't even meet my dad's parents, but my mom's mom
died in 2013, like September 2013. And then my mom's dad died in 2016
actually, when both my parents were gone in England for my brother's
wedding, so like, we never really got to grieve my grandpa's death,
because like, my mom was gone. So yes, like, I never got to meet them. So
like now like when I like see people like having like, relationships with
like their grandparents or like, it's like, either like when they have
relationships with their grandparents I'm like, so happy for them because
I'm like, wow, like, that's such an amazing thing to be able to experience
like, I know, like some people like they consider their grandparents like
more of like a contribution to their life like than their parents. So it's
like super interesting to see. But like also like, the same thing I'm
like, when people don't appreciate their grandparents, I get upset because
I'm like, please appreciate them. Like they're only here for a certain
amount of time, just like the rest of us, but they're also here for such a
short amount of time, so it's like, yeah, I have like I have those
emotions about that.
Sahra Tobe 36:48
So did you, I know we spoke a little earlier about your father's sister
that would invite you guys over during like Thanksgiving time. Do ou guys
have any like other cousins or other extended families, you guys, like
regularly got together with and how did that, how did that kind of play
out in your life like growing up?
Salma Ahmed 37:11
Yeah, so um, my father's sister she has a lot of kids, most of our kids
are like, a lot older than me. Her youngest son is actually like 31 he's
as old as my sister that lives in New York and then her oldest son is like
45 I want to say like they have their age gaps aren't like insane, but
like in comparison to us, like they're a lot older than us. So um, so
yeah, they it was actually my nieces and nephews, my cousin's kids like in
my culture, consider my nieces and nephews because like your cousins are
like your siblings in comparison instead of like, great cousin, whatever
second cousin and all that but um, so yeah, we would all get together
because all of her kids except for her oldest live inMinnesota. So it was
more like I was getting together with like my aunts and their kids instead
of like my cousins and their kids because, you know, like, my cousins are
so much older than me, I saw them as like parent figures. And so it'd be
super nice to see all of them because all their kids are like, around my
age and around the twins age. So they would come over too because they're
all off of school. But most of my like my dad's family, live like around
the world. Like, he has some family in Toronto, like my dad has like
mostly brothers, except for his one, he only has one sister and then the
rest are brothers. So he has brothers in Toronto, and then Saudi Arabia
and like Abu Dhabi and United Arab Emirates, and then also a brother in
Birmingham. So like, we don't get to see them frequently but like they
visited us and like I'm like connected with all my like cousins on like
social media and like sometimes we talk but it's just like, like knowing
like they exist is like super nice like having cousins around your age,
especially girl cousins, super nice and so. But my mom's side of the
family she um, she comes from, she doesn't come from a big family. My
grandpa actually like he was married twice. So his second wife has like
younger kids than my mom. So there's like a lot of them like, they all
live in Somalia. And one of my mom's older sister's daughter actually
lives in Sweden. So my mom is like, trying to go to Sweden now. It's
funny.
Sahra Tobe 39:34
So, circling back to your experience in school, I know you stated earlier
that you preferred math over reading etc. What else can you recall about
like how, how school was for you? Especially like having the guidance of
your older siblings and kind having already that community from Dugsi
maybe that translated over and what also are you up to now?
Salma Ahmed 40:00
Yeah, so school is like, I always enjoyed it. So but my favorite was
middle school because like, I was always like super like soft spoken like
super like insecure about my identity. But like middle schools when I
really realized like I was happy like with who I was like, where I came
from things like that, which thankfully it happens sooner rather than
later. I know for a lot of people are not as thankful, I mean, they're not
as comfortable. Yeah, like around that age. Like that's what I feel like
insecurities kind of grow. You know what I mean? So I was like, Luck that
mine were kind of chilling out at that age. But so yeah, so I school was
always I don't want to say a breeze. But it was always like something. It
was like nonchalant, I was nonchalant about it. Like, I did it. I wasn't
like completely invested. Like also I was good at it. So I didn't hate it.
You know, like, like I said before, I'm kind of egotistical, I only like
what I'm good at, but um yeah like that's when, that's like, why I liked
it. Like, in high school, I was in the National Honor Society. So and
like, none of my family members were in that, so I was really like happy,
like, I love like when my family like see something like and they're happy
for me because it's like something that they're unfamiliar with. Like I
know like a lot of times like when I'm good at something my other siblings
good at it like my parents like they're like oh, okay, like that's a
regular thing like it's the norm for us, you know? So I liked high school
a lot because I was kind of like, more well sculpted in like who I was.
And like, I was good at school, I was taking PSEO classes. And I just felt
like so like in control of my life. Like for the first time I was like the
driver. And I knew like where I was going, I wasn't using GPS. And yeah,
like now I'm in college and I'm kind of using GPS again. So, like, right
now I study computer science. And like, I don't know, like, that decision
was kind of like erratic, I don't know, like, I don't completely enjoy it,
I first started because of like, the problem solving aspects and like, you
know, like, it's really like exhilarating when you're good at or like when
you solve a problem that you see on your own, like, you don't need help.
Like, it's, it's just like, it's a really good feeling. But I'm now like
I'm realizing like, there's not much like, there's not much to it, like
you code and then you move on, like, I and I don't like what my whole life
to be just like, coding, you know. And like, I feel like in any aspect of
any career, like or any career that I intend to go into. You don't like,
you don't want to like just code. You know what I mean? It's just, it's
not like, it doesn't sit right with me thinking like I'm working towards.
I'm just coding working towards a job where i'll just code. Like that
doesn't sound fulfilling to me at all, which I'm not necessarily like
going to school to like become fulfilled by a job, but it would be nice to
not hate myself. So, yes, and right now I'm like looking into other
majors, possibly Management Information Systems because it kind of like
uses, like the coding that I already know with also, like, management
aspects and like analyzation and like critical thinking where like, I'll
actually be able to use the frontal lobe. I would not use it if I was just
coding.
Sahra Tobe 43:25
So um, going a little bit, going a little bit more into your experience in
college so far. You are a sophomore, correct?
Salma Ahmed
Yes.
43:31
Sahra Tobe 43:32
So do you have you maybe felt like some of the peer pressure from maybe
High School has been maybe like presenting itself in college as well maybe
just like in other forums? Or like, how do you feel your social life is
now?
Salma Ahmed 43:49
I feel like my social life now is like, fairly well, like, I haven't had
like, issues with like friendships and things like since I was in high
school, so like, I'm thankful one I have like, been able to, like, make
good friends in school, but like, also have like good friends outside of
school. So it's like a nice balance of the two and like, yeah like,
socially like, I feel fine. However, there's like always like the, the
'teenage activities', like people aren't teenagers anymore, but um the
activities of like of students or whatever that like linger. And so
actually, I find that in college, they applaud you for not partaking in
their activities, and like they almost like give you like that, 'Oh,
you're so innocent, don't do this kind of act', which is almost worse than
the peer pressure I experienced in high school because like, they think
you don't do stuff because you're naive instead of like, wise, you know, I
mean, so like it really like it's just kind of like an ongoing loop of
what? But, but um, yes, like, I like I definitely come across people like
doing things that I personally don't do or won't do or will never do. So.
So it's like, it's definitely interesting to see like, the different
reactions you get, though, because like, people have been like offering
out the same things for the past five, six years. It's just now that they
offer it in different tones and different reactions when you say no or so
it's funny. It's funny. Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 45:18
Do you do feel like yourself becoming stronger and more grounded in your
identities the more that you experience kind of these invitations or is it
the other way?
Salma Ahmed 45:29
Um, yeah, I feel like I kind of do kind of like, I'm still the same
because I find that like people when like they, when they applaud you for
not doing something they're just insecure. Like, they themselves don't
know why they're doing what they're doing, or it's like they themselves
fed into peer pressure. So they're kind of just like, taken aback when you
like, think for yourself because they didn't do that. So it's definitely
interesting to see that like, I'm this way because I wanna be this way,
but you're that way because your friend said so or like, it doesn't really
make sense to me because I know like some people like it takes longer for
them to digest things than others or like some people weren't offered
these things like they went to Islamic school or whatever, you know, like,
whatever walk of life you're from. However, like, if you're gonna think
for yourself, you'll start thinking for yourself now because like, this is
like, your formative adult years. So I don't really like I don't really
know. And I don't really feel like as bad as I do for people now when they
like kind of get themselves in situations as they did in high school.
Because now you've like, now you've like seen things, you know what I
mean? Like now you like this is what you chosen. So like, yeah, like I
feel more strong willed than I did before because of that type of stuff.
Yeah.
Sahra Tobe 46:50
So now moving forward, where, where do you see yourself? In the next- I
know this question sucks, I hate myself for asking you but I'm going ask
you anyway
Salma Ahmed
Okay
47:01
Sahra Tobe 47:01
and this is in terms of like your school, in terms of maybe who you are as
a person, in terms of maybe your relationships with people, different
people in your life things like that. But where do you see yourself
ideally? Maybe in the next two, three years, three years?
Salma Ahmed 47:18
Oh, okay so only two I thought you were gonna say five or 10 I don't know.
Um, yeah, next two, three years. Yeah, hopefully like see myself graduated
with a degree hopefully I see myself out of school not doing homework. But
yeah, like with a stable job hopefully like if it's two years from now
then I won't have graduated yet. Like hopefully with at least a job offer.
I hope like I'm really strong in my Iman, like more than I am now. I hope
like I'm like more certain of myself like I feel like I'm like fairly
confident now. Like there's always room for improvement in any aspect of a
person. So yeah, like I definitely hope to be like more stable I hope to
be driving my own car again like I was in high school. But um yeah, no I
and I hope like I'm learning something that I care about. And like I'm I'm
confident in what I'm learning. So yeah.
Sahra Tobe 48:13
Do you have anything else you want to add, any closing remarks?
Salma Ahmed 48:19
no no closing remarks but I will tell you like, my like situation of like,
my like immigrant story, my Muslim immigrant story, Muslim in Minnesota
story is like, I know like very different in comparison to other people
like the generation now growing up like my younger sisters like years of
schooling is like completely different than mine. Even if they are in
like, similar shoes as me like with older siblings, and like couple of
younger siblings, like I definitely say like this is it's a very specific
situational story. So I think it's interesting what this is doing what you
guys are doing.
Sahra Tobe 48:59
Thank you so much for joining me
Salma Ahmed 49:01
You're welcome. This was fun. Thanks for having me. It was an honor,
pleasure.
Sahra Tobe 49:08
Thanks so much for listening, bye-bye
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing ... Show more
Transcript
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:01
Um, so All right, so I'll start by saying that the day Today's Wednesday. Oh no, no, no
Wednesday, Thursday, April 13, 2022. This is Barbara Sabino Pina for Muslims in Minnesota
Oral History Project. I am here with Nasmath. Thank you so much for agreeing to participate in
this oral history project. I want to remind you that this may be published as part of the Oral
History Archives project at Augsburg University. And I need your permission to record this
conversation. So, do you agree to be, for this conversation to be recorded?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:46
Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina 0:47
Okay. So why don't you introduce yourself and just say, when and where were you born? And
whatever else you want to share about yourself?
Nasmath Aldrin 0:55
Okay, thank you, Barbara, for the opportunity to be here and share with you. My name is
Nasmath Amegankpoe, originally from Republic of Benin in West Africa. Born and raised in
Benin, as a Muslim. Since 2001, where I migrated here to US following my husband. So,
currently live in Minnesota, and that where I've lived since 2001 with two kids, two young adults
(laughs). Yes, and I'm a registered nurse by background.
Barbara Sabino Pina 1:37
Um, why don't we talk a little bit about since you mentioned your family, um, why don't you
introduce a little bit about your family? Like, maybe your parents? You have any partner, or your
children?
Nasmath Aldrin 1:54
Yes, absolutely. I was born in Benin. And my mom actually is the elementary school teacher. My
dad was an accountant. He's passed away now since 95. And so I just grew up in, you know, in
a Muslim family, Muslim environment, Muslim culture. And married actually, right as I was
moving to US, and so been living here since 2001 with my husband and my two kids.
Barbara Sabino Pina 2:30
Beautiful. Um, so you mentioned that you were born in Benin, or the Republic of Benin, long
time ago. I was wondering if you could share a little bit about your childhood, like, where do
you... like the neighborhood, you lived in? How did the people look like around you? What type
of culture do you experience growing up? And things like that?
Nasmath Aldrin 2:57
Absolutely. Growing up was a lot of fun, really different from US, I have to say. Just in the fact
that we went to school, of course, it's a topical country. We went to school in the morning from
eight to twelve. And then we came back home, we walk pretty much all the distances, didn't
have to ride a car. Well, you know how to take that bus. My dad does have a chauffeur-driven
car, but some-sometimes when he's, you know, he wants to, you know, just wanted to play this a
little bit, they will drive us to school, but otherwise, it was walking everywhere. And which, which
was a good thing, really. And, you know, the places also was very nice around the house, you
know, family were over, pretty much every day, the weekend. There was always something in
the neighborhood, we were just, you know, it was a, the neighborhood itself was a big, I will say
big family, you know, big family member or we could be in anybodies house, you know, and
without any worries. And any, anybody in the neighborhood or, you know, parent, we're
considered our parent. So you get in trouble anyway (laughs). It follows you (laughs), you can't
really (laughs), you can't really get away with anything, but, you know, it was a lot of fun, you
know, play and of course, we had to be at home for our daily prayers, you know, so, the school
schedule was perfect, and at the same time, you know, on weekends, we, we went to our
Islamic school to learn about our faith. And, and so, you know, mainly. But very fun, a lot of fun.
A lot of activities just between each other. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 5:05
Awesome. That sounds like a lot of fun. Um, I'm wondering, so you were mentioned, you
mentioned a little bit about your neighborhood and a little bit about, like, how you will gather with
your family all together. Um, so I'm wondering since you said that you move you now move into
United States, but you were born in Benin. Why did you come to America? Or how did that
process go? Was it your parents who brought you here? Was it you came here for yourself? A
little bit of the process of the immigration process?
Nasmath Aldrin 5:42
Yeah. Actually, in college, in my first year in college is when I met my husband, my, you know,
current husband. And so we met and I came here actually following him. I was still finishing my
school, when he moved to US. So about two years before me, he moved to us, following the it's
called "diversity visa". And so he came in, it was just a natural thing to follow Him. When I was
done with my bachelor.
Barbara Sabino Pina 6:21
Awesome, do you know, did your husband ever told you like, why the United States? Was it like
an opportunity he had here? Or? Like, basically, why specifically, the United States out of all the
countries?
Nasmath Aldrin 6:40
Yeah, good. Actually, it was a time where Bill Clinton, you know, was the President of the United
States. And he started a program called "diversity visa". So basically, they extend to different
countries around the world. Certain amount of visa is also called "lottery visa". And that anyone
who, you know, played that year, you know, there was a certain amount that was allocated, and
my husband happened to play that year. And he was a chemical engineer, he graduated and
was just had just started working. And somebody talked to him about the lottery visa. And so he
really liked it, because he had always wanted to go abroad, you know, and he wanted better
things for the family. He wanted to go abroad. And so when that opportunity came, he played,
you know, this lottery visa, and he won, you know, he was one of those people that were picked
for that year to get that visa. And so that's how he came here. And of course, naturally, when I...
I wanted to stay back and finish my degree. And so I followed him as soon as I was done.
Barbara Sabino Pina 8:05
Awesome. And go, how was that process? If you don't mind me asking, what...after he came
here was he the one who requested you to come? and How long did all that process take?
Nasmath Aldrin 8:20
Yeah, it was um... Yes, he requested me to come. Of course, he has sent like an invite to, you
know, for me to come and how long it take, I think he will know better (laughs). I think he started,
I want to say he started the process right before I graduated the year, right before I graduated in
the same year, that was in 2... in 1999. In 1999, and so it probably took about I'm gonna say
about maybe about a couple of months to a year. And so and so he invited me and then I, you
know, I came in, I came and joined him, you know, for the first few um... I want to say for the first
two years, clearly, I want to stay home, stay at home mom, I did not work. And, you know, in
those same years, you know, I had about three to four years, I had my two kids and so I stayed
home to raise them till they were a year and a half and just about a year. And after that is when I
actually we actually decided for me to walk outside of the house. And in then, you know, that's
how my career, you know, my working career started in us and I worked initially as a nursing
assistant that I was, you know, trying to get my degree converted here and that took some
classes, and then I was able to, to go for my life, hence the registered nurse here in US.
Barbara Sabino Pina 10:09
So where did you go and leave when you arrived, in the United States?
Nasmath Aldrin 10:14
I came straight to Minnesota. He was in Minnesota, yes, he was living in Minnesota at the time,
we lived in Roseville. And, you know, at the end of 2001, after our daughter was born, we
moved into a two-bedroom apartment in North temple. And, you know, about two years after
that, close to me having my second child is when we moved to a house that my husband
purchased at the time in White bear. And that's where, you know, both kids go went to
elementary school, middle school, and it's in their high school that we actually moved to Maple
Grove. And currently, we live in Brooklyn Park, and they are both in college.
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:14
And that's awesome. That is really awesome to hear. Why Minnesota? Do you know why your
husband came specifically to Minnesota? And why you both stayed so long?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:26
(Laughs)
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:26
And not moving to any other state?
Nasmath Aldrin 11:29
That's a good question. He actually came, he came in stayed with a friend in Alexandria,
Virginia. And, you know, after he stayed there for a few months, he really wanted to be able to,
you know, to continue his education. And he also saw that the job, there was a big... the job
markets there. He was working in a in restaurants, you know, just the little job, you know, to, to
be able to survive. And he realized that it was kind of competitive, but not was not, you know,
was not, I will say what, was not really the job that he wanted to do, really, he really wanted to
pursue his education. And so and it was not paying that well, either. So at some point, he
decided he needed to separate and get his own place. And somebody actually, at the time, told
him that Minnesota was a good place to get a good job and to get a better paying job, and
where he could actually continue his education. And that's how he moved to Minnesota. So at
the time, when I came, he was already in Minnesota. And so I, you know, I just stayed there. Of
course, it was a big shock on the... I came in January, the weather was really cold, it was harsh.
So you know, I did not hesitate when he was like, "you want to just stay home for a few years?".
I'm was like, "absolutely!. I don't want to go out in this weather". That's for sure. And so, you
know, and so that's, that's how I that's how we stayed in Minnesota. And we kind of you know,
as every year, we will be like, you know, we need to move to a warmer state. But then we were
thinking about a good place for the kids education. And we realized Minnesota was one of the
states that offered a good education program for the kids. I think that was the main reason why
even though the weather was harsh, and we we felt like we should move each time we thought
about the kid and just stay back. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 13:55
So coming back a little bit a few minutes ago, when you mentioned about your career. You
mentioned that eventually, you started coming here to didn't work at the beginning. And then just
started to do like following certain steps in order to learn English and all these other things. And
eventually, you end up in the career that you are at the moment. Um, I was wondering if you
could talk a little bit about like, the first position that you got, or the first job that you got here in
the United States, and how that eventually got you to the place that you are at the moment.
Nasmath Aldrin 14:25
Okay, okay. Um, you know, actually, when I came in 2001, in September, and September 11
happened, right. And so, when I was going to start working, I was wondering, you know, which
fields will I go in that will not, you know, impact my, you know, where I will not be put down or
look down at all, you know, and because, you know, there was a lot of anxiety at the time, you
know, considering I was of Muslim faith. And so being that I studied nursing back home, we both
thought, you know, why don't you stay in healthcare. And, you know, in health care, you just go,
you will care for people, people will very quickly see to your heart and see that, you know, you
are just there to help them. And so I started here as a nursing assistant. And I worked, the first
place I worked, it's called "Volunteers of America". It's a nursing home, ah, in Maple, Maple
Woods. And so I started working there at the time as an nurse assistant, of course, and I worked
there for just a few months, at some point, I just did not like the culture. So I moved from that
company, and I went from there to another company called "Serenity". And that was in White
bear, and it was closer to our house actually. So that way, I stayed, you know, while I took some
classes at Kaplan for my nursing, and eventually, you know, got my license to work as a nurse.
And when I got my license to work as a nurse, actually, I was sponsored by another company, to
the Presbyterian homes, Presbyterian homes and services, and this is a company that sponsor
nurses actually from abroad. So my husband got the, you know, to know about them, and to one
of his colleagues at work. And so, through that company, you know, they really helped me to
even all the classes that I got the kind of guide me to, to get, you know, my nursing degree here,
and so, and, of course, I left serenity that that's what the last place I worked at an Nursing
assistance. And so, I went, I started my career as a nurse with Presbyterian homes. And one
day, for a few years, I, I went from there at some point, as you know, I went into management, I
went from being a floor nurse into, you know, clinical manager, and then just the stress of you
know, walk and managing my kids with you know, going up in all I decided, you know, I needed
to go back and work as the as a floor nurse. And so, you know, I went back you know, to this
simply serenity where I had previously worked as a nursing assistant because I like the culture
there. And so, I worked there as a nurse again as the flow nurse for a few years you know, just
managing with my kids age and different activities that they had. And of course, you know, after
a few years, I go into leadership there as well (laughs). And you know, started managing the
flow nurses then I went in managing for the bed Transitional Care Unit and in the year you know,
after a while, you know, I got tired again about management and I went into homecare. So in
homecare, I worked mainly with Fairview, Fairview services, and then you know, and my kids
now, back to college, I decided to tone it down. And I work currently as the, as an admission of...
director of admission at Presbyterian homes. It's only 10 minutes away from home for me, which
is really convenient. And the kids are not here anyway, they are all you know, in college and so
that's good one. I like my schedule of you know, Monday through Friday and having my
weekends that allow me to travel away and travel, you know, of course one being visited my
kids but also for business. Because you know, in between them my husband and I decided we
needed... we needed to supplement our income, we needed to diversify our assets. And so we
went into business, which has been, I will say, tremendous, you know, we have provided me the
tremendous growth, personal growth. And I believe, you know, that also contributed to the
growth in leadership that I experienced throughout my career. Yeah,
Barbara Sabino Pina 20:29
Wow, that sounds like a long journey that guided you to be more happy, like in a happier spot for
sure. Um, so you talked about, well we've been talking about many things. But I was, I'm
wondering, since you came to this country, I can hear that you were surrounded by many people
that helped you, in many support that you got it, but I'm pretty sure you also experienced many
challenges, and many obstacles, to also get to the place you are. So I would like to know, if you
could share a little bit about Who were those people that helped you? Like, uplift you to the
place that you are? Or what were those events that help you to where you are? And what were
those challenges that you had to face in order to get to the place that you are right now.
Nasmath Aldrin 21:26
Thank you, thank you. Actually, you know, I... This is how I came to see challenges, right?.
Challenges, I see them as an opportunity to grow. Okay, and I will say, my growth started from
being a floor nurse. One of the challenges I faced initially at work was the language. Not too
much the language but the accent, right, I knew I had an accent (laughs), there was no
discussing that, but a few of the challenges were, you know, where it was kind of thrown at my
face, you know, that... you know, either I mean, I can see where, you know, somebody may not
hear me, or may not understand me, right? by the way, but I was very, very aware of that. And I
actually, you know, will be the first to tell people I know, I have an accent. So and, you know,
being a nurse at many times, I have to educate my patients. So I will always take the time to be
slow. But also repeat myself, I will ask them, you know, to ask me because I will repeat myself,
as many times needed for them to understand me. Because that was very important for the
care, right? but that many occasions, you know, I really felt that, you know, either because of,
you know, their own issues that they had, you know, that's really how I take it because I came
across so many nice people, so many people who Oh, wow, "you speak so many languages" or
"you also speak...?" or "how many languages you speak? "and "you just come to US and you're
able to, you know, converse?", I'm like, Yeah, so I came across people like that, but I also came
across, you know, many people who, but only made me strive to get better at my you know, at
my communication, I will say, so, any challenge, that's why I only consider any challenge being
an opportunity to grow, okay?. Of course, you know, Presbyterian homes and services was you
know, as a company helped me initially to help me with you know, ESL helped me actually with
my class, my courses with Kaplan, Kaplan University and getting my nursing. So, um, so, there
were, you know, first was really tremendous in, in me, you know, going back to my nursing
career in this country. And the other day, I will say, I will attributes you know, a lot of my growth
also to the fact that I was not afraid to work hard. Not at all. And I was not afraid to, you know, to
really share with people my heart, part my heart in anything that I did. One thing that I learned
from my dad, you know, I learned from my dad and also one of my dear Professor at all nursing
school in Benin was anything that you decide to do, do it right! You do it once do it Right. Right?,
and, you know, don't give opportunity to be questioned. And so I value that a lot. And that was
one of the things that helped me. I, I, you know, I, I always give, I always put my best in anything
that I was doing. And I believe initially, that's what allowed me to go from a flow nurse quickly to
just grow in leadership. And the other thing that I will attribute my growth, my personal growt to
actually is the environment, you know, that I came at that I came through with the business
opportunity that my husband and I started, right and so, we... the business actually came as a
package along with a coaching mentorship program that, the name is BWW stands for bridge
worldwide. And so Britt worldwide was just a group of entrepreneurs, right who were committed
to helping people grow, personally. And the goal in our business is kind of related to the growth
in our personal growth. And so I fell in love with reading personal growth book, right? As I was
building my business, and, you know, in the opportunity, I had to associate with like-minded
people, you know, with people who are really upwardly mobile, and, you know, going after a
goal in life, and that, that was really unique, you know, that was unique, and I believe that
shaped, I believe that that shaped who I am today.
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:59
Yeah, that is really, really beautiful way to see challenges, I really like the way you explain them,
and how you were also to use them as a way to kind of grow and see them, as you said, an
opportunity. Um, I think all of these things are also kind of related to, you know, our beliefs, and
mindset, and all these systems. So I want to ask you, what do you think? Or what, what is your
definition for faith? Like, what does faith mean for you? And if it has changed over the years,
and if so, has it changed, because like, when you moved to United States?was your, were your
previous experiences, from your job?, in your marriage?, with your children? have they also
helped shape the way you see faith, and religion? Um, and yeah, just talk what it means for you.
Nasmath Aldrin 28:05
Thank you, thank you. Um, you know, of course, you know, I go, I grew up, knowing that there
was one God, that we were all, you know, that we were all, who created us all. And that is
anything that would be, right? believing in that God, even though he, we cannot see Him, we
cannot touch him. Okay, and so that, that, that really fit to me, is believing that in anything that
I'm doing, that there is a higher power, you know, that is actually guiding my step. And knowing
that, you know, I can go back, I can go back to him at any time, why that you will guide me, and
that any challenges that come also are could be a test of my faith, but or could be on, like I said,
an opportunity for me to grow even at the test for my faith, it is also an opportunity for me to
grow, but being able to see that, right? and then just, you know, take it that way and find you
know, find out from people who are aware, you know, I want to be, right? and taking guidance,
right from them and in reading a lot, reading a lot, you know, has helped me grow my faith as a
person. Yes, I had the faith but the challenges made me do that fit much stronger, right?, every
opportunity of anxiety of scarcity. You know, kind of reminded me Hey, you know what? in up
and low, right? there is no challenge tha\ he could put in front of me that he does not already
have the solution for. But that solution will only come in trusting him. Right that I was, I was, you
know, I was in good hands, and that the answer will come in in the right time. And just keep
moving forward and doing and choosing to do the right thing. Yeah. Really the belief in that one
thing? Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina 30:22
absolutely. Yes. Kind of, continue talking about faith? And like, what do you believe? In all these
belief systems that you have? What do you think it means for you to be an immigrant? Who is
also African And who is also Muslim living in the United States? And how has your faith helped
you? Like, through... all this transitioning that you went from your native country, to a foreign
country that you have lived for multiple years? Now?
Nasmath Aldrin 31:17
I believe, of course, United States is the greatest states, I believe, right? In the world, I mean, in
the world, right. There is, you know, we can um, we can say all, you know, we can complain, we
can do, we can say so many things, right?. But it still remains that great country, it still remains
that country where that freedom of thinking, that freedom of enterprise, that free enterprise is,
and that's one thing that I appreciate a lot about United States. Now, of course, you know,
whether it's US or whether it's anywhere else, ignorance, I believe, is one of the main reasons
for, you know, for, you know, thinking Ill about one fit one region versus the other. I mean, God is
God, right, there is no other we call we call it Allah, right. And I believe we believe in, in God, we
believe in His messengers, while the prophet we believe in all of them. We believe in that one
day where we will all get called back to him, we believe in His angel, and then knowing all that,
you know, really strengthened my faith. It strengthened me, you know, knowing that, you know,
whatever somebody else may think, of me does not define me. Right? And knowing and you
know, trusting, in his hand of protection over me and my family, and trusting in his, you know, in
his guidance, and just moving forward, you know, and without too much baggage without too
much anxiety. Right. And so, that's really what I believe in, and my faith has helped me a lot to
stay grounded. You know, and, and, you know, it has helped me to raise my kids as well. And
helping them understand, you know, many things that, you know what?, usually, it's the
ignorance that acts, you know, ah, you know, the ignorance that acts selfishly, and then most of
the time, it's just because somebody has their own issues, you know, that can be transmitted
that can be portrayed in an ill way, right?,in a yes, in a hurtful way, or things like that. But no
human being a human being we all, we all will answer to him one day. And yeah, yeah, the US
has been a great country for us.
Barbara Sabino Pina
So good to hear. Um, so how does your identity this kind of has, you cannot cover a little bit
about this in the previous question, but I want to rephrase it a little differently. So how does your
identity as an immigrant African Muslim woman has shaped the way you see the world and the
way you behave and the basically who you are as a person?
Nasmath Aldrin
That's a That's a great question. I will say, you know, coming from a country where we really
believe in togetherness, right, we really believe so much in helping each other. I mean, even
though, you know, we don't have a lot, but we really believe in, you know, that togetherness,
that, you know, helping each other. And, you know, that just brings strength to all of us, right?.
And so that has helped me, of course, come in here and not having, you know, immediate
family, I didn't really have, I didn't really have much fun, right? There was that... there was, you
know, a little bit of preconceived ideas, you know, what is this person gonna think of me, and
what is that person, so I didn't really make a friend by the way, but, you know, after I started
walking, you know, and I will say, with the improvements in my English, it helped my self-image
as well, right?, and... of course, with the, the environments that I had a chance to be part of will
BWW, it helped me a lot to raise my self-image. And as my self-image raised, I realized that we
really are all just the same. We all just yearn for the same thing in life, we all want peace of
mind, right? We want great health, we want you know, they are just those basic things that we
all want. Right? And...but the environment, you know, that we grew up in, may make us have
some preconceived ideas about one person or the other, or one religion or the other and things
like that. But it's, I will say, you know, that togetherness helped me when I, when I came across
this business opportunity. And when I had the opportunity to meet on, you know, this team of
entrepreneurs in this environment, I just felt home, I really felt home. And I was like, you know, I
don't have to be afraid here. You know, nobody's judging me. You know, nobody's judging me
for who I am, you know, it's just me, and we are all here, together, learning from each other
growing together, you know, as a person, that's what I will say, that was huge... in umm huge
contributing in, you know, what shaped me and, and, of course, I found a game that I found
here, that family, family-like, atmosphere, even though we are all from different places of the
world, and, and things like that I found back here, you know, in this environment, and that
helped me a lot. And, you know, and then I also realized that there was really nothing to be
afraid of, you know, that, wherever I am, I could really be freely, you know, speak my mind. And,
of course, knowing that, you know, that freedom that we all have my freedom stop, when
I'm...where at that place, where I try to infringe on somebody else's freedom. Right, and so, but
it has helped, it has helped me that, you know, that togetherness, that spirit of, you know,
helping each other, you know, coming here, in the fit growing, you know, in an environment
where, you know, those values were, were very key, they kind of define this helped me a lot
here to just trust that in any way God brought me here for a reason. And so, you know, I will just
follow whatever path he has for me. And in the end, it will all be good. Yeah, I hope that
answered (laughs).
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, it did. Absolutely. It actually did touch a little bit about misconceptions. And you said a little
bit about how people can have ideas about certain people or certain religions. So I'm wondering
if you could elaborate a little bit more on like what are, a few misconceptions that people have,
or you believe people have about Muslims. And I'm like, what, if you would like to share a little
bit of how have you experienced those yourself? And how that has helped you to like, you
mentioned this a little bit about it, but like how this has helped you do see other religions and
yourself even more stronger or more open as well.
Nasmath Aldrin
Yeah, well, misconception I will say, you know, I'm I know that one of the big contributing factor
to this misconception also, I will say, when it comes to my religion, you know, being a Muslim
came from after that of September 11. Okay, I just came here to US, right?, I came in January,
and then September 11 happened. And then initially, you know, I could not, I mean, it's hard to
hide that you're Muslim (laughs). But, you know, it's like many people, I, you know, I saw that,
you know, they saw Muslim as, you know, terrorist, and, you know, things like that, of course,
initially, it was hard and actually raising my kids, you know, how do you sit them down and
explain to them, this is not what, this is not really, what...what being a Muslim is, right?. These
are people who choose, you know, who have their own agenda, really has nothing to do with the
religion. And these are just people who have their own agenda. And under the name of being
Muslim, you know, they fight to just, you know, do bad things, why they fight to just, but that has
nothing to do with religion, Islam is a unifying religion, you can see it even in how we stand in
the Muslim pray, right? There is no space between us. So, basically, you go in there, you may
be from Africa, you may be from India, you may be from any, any corner of the world. Right,
when you get on that road to pray, we all get so close to each other. Right? It's actually a
religion that bring us together. But at the same time, you know, when people decide under the
name of religion to, you know, to just kill and do things like that, right? it sounds, um, it's hard,
but I think that has that slowly, that event, slowly, I think... it increases the awareness of leaders
in the Muslim community, right?, where you know, where I pray, or the mosque, to just be an
opportunity for any of us to educate people. So initially, I was afraid, but then I just, you know, of
course, people saw my heart, right? in anything that I was doing. And I had the opportunity
many times at work, whether it be at work, you know, to just tell people that not who that's not
who we are. That's really not what we are about. You know, and, and, of course, you know, that I
believe that help that raised the awareness, or it raised the awareness and it's still going on, I
know the awareness of the religion itself. And I remember my kids studying Islam in school, and
it was a great opportunity, you know, to help them yes, you see this, you know what?, that this is
what this is, this is what our, our footage, and this is not what we about, you know, terrorism is
not what we are about. Right? And then understanding that Islam actually acknowledges every
of the other religions, right, in the, in the sixth pillar of faith. Right? Our faith is in Allah, God,
first, right? our faith in His messengers, right? Our faith in his books, right, our faith in the
messengers, which include Abraham, you know, Jesus, everybody, Joseph, all of them. When
Muhammad Sallallahu Sallam and our fifth in his book, The Torah, the angel, you know, the
Quran or every single one of them, right? This, God umm we believe God sent these books,
right to different communities. Why through evolution and at each time, target in the mindset at
the time of people and how they were living. Right? And so Jesus came, bringing and doing
many miracles. Right? So we believe he brought him and he gave him that power of doing
miracles to the ex... the expression of faith. Because at the time people needed to see that, to
believe that indeed, there is a God, right? And so through evolution, you know, of a human and
all, we believe all those books came. And Mohamed Salah Salem was the last to come with the
Quran, again, him in an area in an environment, right?, where the culture was, you know, killing
girls, baby girls, right? And, you know, in many, many, many, many violent things were there,
you know, initially in the culture, right? The worshipping objects and things like that were
predominant at his time. Right? And so in his, in him come in with the Quran to elevate people's
consciousness, right, and get them from that, you know, that's mindset and that culture and that
way of doing things. And he had to fight for people to actually get to the point where they could
believe why he had to clean up completely, right? the cava that place today that we all go and
worship as a Muslim that we all yearn to go right and worship, which is maca. Maca was taught
completely overtaken by idols, right? and for him to be able to bring Islam to people and to bring
the awareness of God to people, those things had to happen. And God needed, God needed for
those people, or those who will believe to believe. And yes, he had to fight. But that does not
mean that Islam is the religion of just fighting and killing, no, not at all. Right? And so for, you
know, for people and information is so readily available nowadays. Really, you know, for
anybody who really wants to understand Islam, they can pretty much get that information online,
you know, but, yeah, that's, you know, that's, that's what I can say. But, you know, just to say
that, not just like Christianity, and just like, you know, and Islam is just one way that God chose
to bring, you know, to raise people's consciousness and make them understand that there is a
God in that you do good, you will see good, and you do bad, you will find back as well.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, yeah, thanks for sharing that. Um, for those people that might know little to nothing about
Islam or Muslims, especially here in the United States. How would you describe what does
being a Muslim looks like to them?
Nasmath Aldrin
I would say being a Muslim. Ah, you know what, let me get your question, right. How will I
describe... how will I describe a Muslim to them?
Barbara Sabino Pina
Yeah, to someone who doesn't, who knows little to nothing about Islam?
Nasmath Aldrin
Okay. So I will say it mostly it's just a human being, like anybody else, right? and we believe in
the uniqueness of Allah, right?. And, you know, we pray five times a day, you know, again, a
way for Allah to remind us, right? those, each time that you get on that road, remember I
created you, right? and so five times a day, we are required to go and do those prayers for that
reason. Because the more we are reminded of who's we are, right and where we come from. It
helped us not only stay grounded, right?, but it helped us just stay on the right path that he has,
you know, cleared us to be cleared all of us to come here for a reason, right? with a mission.
And these five prayers a day is a reminder for us each time of where we came from, who's we
are, who we are. Okay, and that's just, that just, those are just an expression. Of course, you
know, we are... he, what we like, those are killers of, you know, of our religion. But when you
think about it, it just a way for us to stay humble, to stay grounded, and know, where we came
from. And a reminder for us each of those five times a day, that, you know, we are God's all, all
God's kids. And we need to do the right thing, right. So it's just like, if you think about it, you
know, you take a shower five times a day, how much debt will you carry? Not much. Right? So,
yeah, oh, you wash your hand five times a day? How much? No. for the Deaf stain, you know,
within, you know, that purity of spirits. Yes.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Awesome. Is there anything that we didn't get to talk about in this interview today, that you
would like to cover or to talk about? Maybe any comments or any additional thoughts about
anything that was said or maybe not said today?
Nasmath Aldrin
Um, you know, I will say, one thing I will say is encourage anybody, you know, like I said, earlier,
information is so readily available nowadays. You know, and in the Muslim community itself, you
know, we organize, so many opportunity for anybody to come in and learn, even as we are
currently fasting, right. And again, we fast and be nice, mainly, again, to worship God, by then to
keep that spirit period, which is actually good for our health itself. You know, this is, you know, a
period during the year where just those fasting actually are very good for your, of course, for
your spirit, for your spirit, but also for your body. So, we embrace that. And for anybody who is
not, you know, how, who really wants to learn about Islam, so many organizations, by the
Minnesoat, itself having a in an Islamic community, Minnesota, okay, let's CEAI. There are so
many so much information available, even online, Right? there there is translation of Hadith of
the Prophet of his way of living, they are translation of even the Quran, you know, the Quran,
you know that to just to help people be aware. So anybody who is looking for the information,
the information is available. It's just going and finding it. When, because anytime you actually go
and find information, it's just like, you are bringing light into darkness, right? And anytime you do
that, it helps increase your awareness. It helps raise your consciousness. It helps you in this
thing. It helps you see everybody as one as equal. No distinction. Doesn't matter. We don't I
don't see color. I don't, right? I don't see. Good. I don't see I noticed none of that. I just see
human beings, all of us. Just unique in our way, right? masterpiece, each of us a masterpiece.
Absolutely. And he is so much more than we think we are capable of. Yeah.
Barbara Sabino Pina
Oh, so true. Well, thank you so much for your time today Nasmath I think I learned so much for
you and I hope everyone who listens to this conversation, this interview learns a lot for you as
well, thank you so much again.
Nasmath Aldrin
You're welcome my pleasure (laughs)
Show less
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um... Show more
Odalys Lozado
Could you start off by introducing yourself? just stating your name
and date of birth?
Muna
Hi, my name is Muna Ali. My date of birth is September 16 2000.
Odalys Lozado
And then do you agree to do this interview with me and have it
published?
Muna
I do agree.
Odalys Lozado
Um, the first question I have for you is if you can just introduce
yourself and just say a little bit about your background and your
family.
Muna
Yeah, so I am a first generation students. I have parents that are
immigrants from Somalia. My parents came here more than 24 years ago
during Civil War and my family's a very traditional Somali Muslim.
Odalys Lozado
And then could you elaborate on why your parents came here and what
exactly it was like to come during the Civil War?
Muna
Yeah, so my parents basically came to Minnesota, they came to the
States, mainly out of obligation, because during the Civil War, it's
very dangerous time. A lot of people were losing their life. And it
was just a bad time to be in Somalia at the time. So a lot of people
were seeking refuge in Kenya, at a refugee camps where my parents were
for a portion of time with my older siblings. And they had to come to
the US for a better life and a more stable life where I would be born
and my other little brother and other siblings would be born.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say having immigrant parent kind of changed your
lifestyle or the way that you grew up, especially having them lived
through the war?
Muna
Yeah, so basically, my parents put a lot of importance on education,
so that I could get the best experience of American education and in
order to, you know, make something of myself here. I basically felt
kind of an obligation to do good so that my parents didn't just leave
Somalia for nothing, I want to have a better life for them and myself.
Odalys Lozado
Um, and besides incorporating those teachings into your life, were
there any other teaching such as, like, instilling their religion on
you that kind of differed because of having immigrant parents?
Muna
Um, yeah, my parents, I grew up in a Muslim family household. My
parents taught me about the religion, but they didn't really make it
so strict on me, so that like, I have the freedom to, you know,
practice as much as I need to, or you know what I mean, but it wasn't
a very strict household, but the Muslim morals and values were very
aligned in the household. So, yeah.
Odalys Lozado
And at what age were you introduced to these teachings, or when did
you become aware of them?
Muna
um, pretty much my whole life because I just knew growing up, my mom
was Muslim. A lot of my family members would go to Friday prayer and
celebrate Muslim holidays ever since I can remember so pretty much my
whole life.
Odalys Lozado
And now that you mentioned that, you know, you grew up with a lot of
family that wore hijabs at what age were you kind of drawn to it? Or
when did you decide that you wanted to wear it and what was the
reason?
Muna
I just wore in the third grade maybe as early as first or second
grade. And it was just something that I saw my mom do, and it was
something that I really wanted to do because I saw my mom wear it and
my older sisters. So it was just something that I just, was drawn to
and I thought was really beautiful. So I started wearing it at a young
age and I I started to love so much.
Odalys Lozado
you mention that wearing a hijab makes you feel very happy and that
you did it for your mom. However, are there any, like fears or other
emotions that came along with it too?
Muna
Um, you know what, when you grow up as a kid, and sometimes you see
other people not wearing it and like, especially in American country,
where it's not a majority Muslim country, so obviously, you're gonna
get stares, and people are gonna judge you based off your hijab, and
they can just tell that you're Muslim just from looking at you, it can
come with a lot of hard things to deal with. But living in Minnesota
makes it a little bit easier because we are one of the highest
populations of Somali people. So it's kind of like you have a
community. But still, it's still hard at the end of the day.
Odalys Lozado
And how would you say things changes as you got older, and you went to
school? Were you still having the same emotions? how did you handle
having to, you know, bring these religious practice into school? Like,
did you feel anything about it? Or were there any problems or
conflicts with it?
Muna
Um, for me, the outside world wasn't much of a determination of me
wearing a hijab it was mostly more with myself. But I've had struggles
wearing it, like I've had times where I don't wear it. And that's just
something that I had to deal with within myself. it's more of a
personal things that I have to deal with. But in reality as I get
older, I haven't really had any negative experiences with people
directly judging me. Or not that I know of, but as I got older it
wasn't more so do with society, but it was more of an internal battle.
Odalys Lozado
And how are you like managing that as you get older? Or what are
things that you're trying to do to make it a little bit more easier?
Muna
Yes, so as I get older, I'm seeing more and more of the beauty of
modesty. So I'm trying to start with the way I speak and carry myself.
Even the way you dress is not just the hijab, it's your whole entire
clothing. So I'm trying to dress more modestly and behave more
modestly. And the way I speak to people and the language I use, so
that I can fully transitioned into wearing the hijab full time.
Because right now, I don't really wear it full time. And that's
something that I always wanted to do. That's one of my biggest goals
is to wear a hijab full time. And, you know, not take Instagram
pictures, without it or go in public without it because it's something
that is important to me to achieve in the future.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely.And talking about that hijab, I feel like there's a lot of
misconceptions behind it. But there's also a lot of misconceptions
behind the religion as a whole. So do you mind kind of addressing some
that you are very familiar with and kind of just deconstructed them
from your perspective. And just elaborating more on the actual
meanings?
Muna
Yeah, so a lot of people have the misconception that wearing the hijab
is oppression, which is completely wrong. Because, say, if a woman
wears a bikini or minimal clothing, they are praised and seen as
liberating themselves and, you know, wearing what they want. But if a
woman wants to wear a burqa or hijab, then they are being oppressed,
they're being forced, which it may be the case in some areas of the
world, but majority of Muslims in America and you know, other free
countries are choosing to wear the hijab, and that is, if you ask me,
that most liberating thing you can do in a world where people are
judging you and seeing you as oppressed or forced. And saying, no, I'm
gonna wear my hijab. So I think that's one of the biggest
misconceptions because most hijabis support the rights of women who
want to use more or less clothing or wear other types of clothing, you
know, so it's just kind of a double standard. And it's kind of sad
that people see it as oppression when it's very beautiful. And Islam
also teaches men to wear modest clothing, and to behave in a modest
way. But it's just not talked about. So that's just one of the biggest
misconceptions.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of elaborating, as you mentioned, you know, as your growing
up, you're trying to instill more practices more frequently and more
long term are there any other ones? You know, besides wearing a hijab
that you also want to incorporate? Or do more frequently? And what's
the reason behind it?
Muna
Um, yeah, so Islam is big on giving back to charity, and that is
something that I do regularly when I do have the means to, but in the
future, when I get more established with my career, I do want to find
bigger ways to make an impact in giving charity or make an
organization to help a community because giving charity and giving
back to the community is a big part of Islam.
Odalys Lozado
And currently are you practicing it? And if so, how? And how do you
plan on kind of expanding on it?
Muna
Yes, currently I am practicing. Right now we're in a month of Ramadan.
So I've been trying to strengthen my relationship with God. So I'm
getting in all my prayers and I'm trying to read the Quran and do
things that are productive, like helping around the house at my mom's
house or sending money back home to my mother's family just doing you
know as much as I can to benefit from the month of Ramadan
Odalys Lozado
and could you kind of expand just for people who aren't as acquainted
with Ramadan what it is?
Muna
So the month of Ramadan is when the Quran was first revealed to
Prophet Muhammad sallallahu alayhi wa sallam and it's a month where
you you basically fast for 30 days from sun rises to sun set. And the
main goal of Ramadan is to get a closer relationship to God and clear
your mind of all the worldly desires that you have like people may
drink or smoke or you know, do things that are not typically our sins
and during this month, it gives everybody a clean slate to you know,
take a break from everything that's going on here and just connect
with God, pray and you know, give to charity and things like that.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned previously that you are students so are there any
difficulties with committing to these while you're a student or while
you have to like deal with you know, schoolwork and then also fast and
also do other things?
Muna
Um, sometimes it can be difficult Yeah, it definitely can be difficult
especially when you're working too I work part time. So some days I
have to break my fast at work. I have to prepare a meal while I'm at
home but I also have classes going on and homework and I have other
responsibilities so it can be a little bit hard but I can do it.
Odalys Lozado
and would you say that you know whether it was your high school or
your college now how are they on meeting the needs that you need
during the month of Ramadan? If they do at all?
Muna
Um, yeah. So I my high school there was a lot of Muslim students so
they did a good job of meeting our needs. They let us sit in the
library when it was Ramadan, so we didn't have to sit in the lunch
room because we weren't eating. They had a prayer room for us. And
even at the U there's multiple places to pray and yeah, I haven't had
any issues.
Odalys Lozado
Again, do you think living in Minnesota and having such a big Somali
Muslim community do you think that kind of helps with providing the
needs to support you? Or just like in school in general, having people
that are going through the same thing as you are, does that make it a
little bit easier?
Muna
Yeah, it definitely helps. I couldn't imagine going, living in a
different state where there's not a lot of Muslim people, because it's
really important to have support, because you do have your family, but
it's also nice to have friends and peers who are going through the
same thing as you and have a community so it's really nice.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think in your able to connect more with the students that
are going through similar situation or through a similar thing you are
going through?
Muna
Um, yeah, it's definitely easier to connect with people who are going
through similar situations as you because I feel like, that's with
anything, it just easier to have someone by your side so whatever task
you have, that may be difficult, it can be easier.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. Overall, just kind of reflecting on your life up until
this point, how would you say that your upbringings and your faith or
being Muslim have played a part in your life?
Muna
Um, yeah, I think Islam has made me a more empathetic person, and a
more cautious person, because when I go outside wearing the hijab, I
just got to know that I'm representing it, I may not represent all of
Islam, but when people look at me, that's what they think of. So I
have to carry myself in a good manner, and respectful way. And also
the teachings and morals of Islam have stopped me from making bad
decisions in my life so many times. And whenever I feel kind of, you
know, when people have times they feel down, or they're going through
stuff, but my religion has been there for me to lean back on so that I
never get to a really dark place. Because in Islam, we believe
everything happens for a reason, and God has written everything for
you. So God's will is very important to me.
Odalys Lozado
And you mentioned that you feel like you many not represent Muslims as
a whole, but in way represent what being a Muslim is, do you feel any
need to fight back or break down stereotypes? or discrimination? And
if so, what are you trying to do? Or how do you deal with that?
Muna
Um, in the past, I've felt a lot of burden to break down stereotypes
and prove to people that Muslims aren't bad, or, you know, whatever
misconceptions they have. But the older I get, the more I realized
that if people in the year 2021 want to be ignorant, it's their
choice. So it's not really my responsibility to inform people about
what Islam is in the way that like if they're ignorant about it, but
if someone who was genuinely willing to learn about Islam and wants to
know its teachings and stuff like that, I'm definitely open to sharing
what I know. But in terms of ignorant people, I'm not really open to
that anymore, because it's very draining as somebody who is Muslim and
black, you have to constantly explain yourself. So it can be very
draining to your mental health.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely, overall, as a whole based on your experience, how would
you in a few words, describe your experience, if you've had any,
about negative experience from other people because you're Muslim? and
explain how you've dealt with it.
Muna
Um, yeah. looking back, I can't really think of significant times
where I was openly treated badly based on my religion. But at the same
time I've had a lot of nonchalant or kind of stares or remark made to
me because of my religion, you know, so those micro aggressions kind
of made me aware of things at all times. And I got to stay alert to
overthinking things sometimes to see if people are giving me a
microaggression or, you know, so it's very tiring to always have to be
on guard to see if people are looking at you differently or treating
you differently based on your religion. But that's just something that
I have to do.
Odalys Lozado
And kind of following up on that where do you think like these
comments or ignorance stems from?
Muna
Obviously, we had our President Donald Trump who was out there spewing
a lot of different racist and Islamophobic and xenophobic things
towards Muslims, even callings out Somalia and a bunch of other Muslim
countries. So people think it's more acceptable, because somebody like
the president, or even the media, news outlets, normalized it. People
think it's okay to say stuff like that now, like, racially, or
Islamophobic stuff. So I think it stems from, like, the leaders of the
country, and the media, which affects people a lot.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think having Donald Trump as a president, cause there to be
more racism and discrimination? Or did it bring into light the racism
and discrimination that was already there.
Muna
Yeah, no, it definitely did not cause any of the racism, because it
has been going on since this country was built, racism has been a
terrible issue. Also, the xenophobia has been around for decades, but
it's just been made more acceptable. Because if the President would
say something like that, then it kind of gives agency to people who
already think things like that, to go ahead and speak their mind and,
do crazy things.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, definitely. And you also said and mentioned how media plays a
part in this what part would you say it plays?
Muna
Well, media is consumed so much in today's society, where even if
you're not actively looking for information, you can find it casually,
and you might have subconscious thoughts that in the back of your mind
due to the media you consume. So media is just everywhere, and it can
affect your consciously or subconsciously. So that's mainly where we
get our information from. So if somebody actively looks for a certain
type of media, that's what they're going to find. which can affect
their biases and their opinions.
Odalys Lozado
Yeah, and, you know, besides the negatives that media brings out,
would you say there's any positive aspects to having media being very
accessible to everyone?
Muna
Yeah, there's definitely positives, people can look for information on
different things that they are curious about. Yeah, there's definitely
a positive to media but there could be miseducation as well.
Odalys Lozado
And how have you found a balance between it?
Muna
Um, I try to get my information from different sources. And before I
speak on certain topics or issues that's going on, I like to do my own
research. Because there's a lot of misinformation on the internet. So,
I like to get my information from different places.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, and then just kind of going back to the beginning of the
interview where you mentioned that your parents very loosely kind of
according to your will instilled their religion onto you, thinking
into the future how would you, give in if you had kids, instill your
religion onto them?
Muna
Note I choose how much I want to practice and in the future, I would
probably do the same for my kids so that they can have their own
relationship with God and Islam and so that they can have it. I think
it causes you to have a stronger relationship with God so, because you
get to experience it for yourself.
Odalys Lozado
looking into the future what are things we can do to break down racism
and Islamophobia that's present, or even the ignorance towards what
being Muslim means?
Muna
um, I think there needs to be more accurate presentation in the media
of Muslims, like if you watch a TV show and there's a Muslim
character, they're often like oppressed or they don't want to be
Muslim or in their religion or it's just a really negative character.
So if there was more positive Muslim characters and TV shows or
Muslims, leaving cities for example has more Muslim representation. In
the government for example, Ilhan Omar, she's breaking barriers for
Somali Muslims, and, yeah, there just needs to be more open dialogue
and more examples of Muslims in America.
Odalys Lozado
You mentioned, Ilhan Omar, being one of the few people to represent
the Muslim community, how does having someone that looks like you
affect or influenced you? Why does representation matter to you?
Muna
I think it's very important, because when you grow up without any
representation of people that are similar to you and culture or
experience or race or religion, seeing them do things that you aspire
to do or, you know what I mean it can be damaging, especially to a
child. Because you don't think that you could see yourself doing stuff
like that but if you see somebody doing it you feel more like you can
do it. Yeah, it's very important. It's very important. And,
especially, Ilhan Omar who wears the hijab. And a lot of times, people
might see the hijab as unprofessional, or, you know, not something
that you can wear in professional settings, or things of that nature,
but she's a leading woman in the government, and she's wearing her
hijab proudly and that's something that's can be admired by young
Muslim girls.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely I agree. And where do you think these like expectations of
what being professional looks like or is versus what being non
professional looks like, where do you think they stem from or where do
they come from?
Muna
I honestly think that it's rooted in racism and yeah
institutionalized racism and the standard of professionalism is based
on white America, even a black woman wearing her natural hair can be
seen as unprofessional. There's many circumstances where black women
in professional settings were told that they can't wear their
dreadlocks or curly hair, you know in professional settings or even in
school settings. So it's definitely rooted in institutionalized
racism. And it was set basically by white America. The standard is
white Americans.
Odalys Lozado
Definitely. And as a college student, you're kind of in progress of
changing the course as a first generation student so are there any
struggles that you're faced with in college or just, you know, as a
first generation student in general?
Muna
As a first generation student. You have a lot of internal battles with
yourself because you're doing a lot of things that are considered
uncharted territory because from the beginning with FAFSA, I've had to
do it all alone because my parents did not have the chance to go to
college, or did not speak English that well so it was something that I
had to do alone. And not only that but your college experience is also
a time where you are becoming more of yourself and leaning more and
turning into your adult self. So you have to make decisions for
yourself and it can be very difficult because, especially as someone
who has intersectional personality, I mean, sorry, intersectional
identities. Being Muslim first generation, female, black, you know it
can be very challenging. You just have to deal with a bunch of
different things that the typical college students probably would not
have to definitely
Odalys Lozado
I can agree, and being a first generation student and coming from
immigrant parents do you ever have problems with your racial identity,
like, you know, your parents, obviously, are from Somalia, but grew up
in America. Do you view yourself as like the standard definition of
what American is, or what do you view yourself as or identify yourself
as?
Muna
Um, I definitely have strong cultural roots. I speak Somali with my
parents and family and it's my food and I honestly don't ever feel
like I would feel fully American, by the definition. I was born in
America. And I am American citizen. But my home, always, even though
I've never been to Somalia feels more of home. It's somewhere that I
felt welcomed in feels like more of a home for me. But, um, yeah,
that's what I would say.
Odalys Lozado
And thinking back reflecting on your life as your whole like your
parents teaching, your experience in school and everything you
learned, looking forward, what are your future plans, both in your
career and personal life?
Muna
So I just plan on incorporating all the things that my parents
instilled in me. And I just hope to graduate within the next two years
for my end goal for my health service management degree, and hopefully
one day I do want to open some type of health care facility for
vulnerable adults, specifically in areas where it's low income in
Minneapolis mainly targeting immigrants because that's something that
I'm passionate about.
Odalys Lozado
And do you think your life experience up until now has been a very
influential or is a deciding factor?
Muna
All of my experiences as a first generation Muslim woman, black
they've all shaped my experience, so they will shape my goals in the
future.
Odalys Lozado
Do you have any closing remarks or final thoughts that you would like
to share.
Muna
No, not really.
Odalys Lozado
Okay, well thank you for taking the time to be interviewed, It's very
appreciated.
Muna
Thank you for interviewing me.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 01:58PM
22:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
symphony, minneapolis, people, music, augsburg, augsburg college, concert, year, choir,
isaac stern, students, band, directed, tickets, sang, girls, choral, play, talk, elizabeth
SPEAKERS
Gerda Morten... Show more
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 01:58PM
22:02
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
symphony, minneapolis, people, music, augsburg, augsburg college, concert, year, choir,
isaac stern, students, band, directed, tickets, sang, girls, choral, play, talk, elizabeth
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:01
On this Choral Club tour up to Central Minnesota, which I went with people carrying my
luggage because I was recovering from surgery.
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:13
I played the components for the choir often then play the components for Miss Gerda's
fall when she sang solos and for Mr. Mr Opseth when he did the other cello playing. And
then we did a tour were taken by car from congregation to congregation. And on our final
ride home on the train from up near Brener downtown Minneapolis. I had instructed the
girls to be very quiet and dignified, then lady Lake on the train, not too upset. I said, you
know, your responsibility for the reputation of Augsburg. It just simply is up to you people.
And after we had been on the train for a half an hour, so a woman came up to me
interested I Mrs. Clarence Francis. And I just, I recognize, you know, I saw this gang of girls
coming on the train. And I thought, we're really going to have a nice ride into Minneapolis
at this point. But she said, I want to compliment you on the very fine sort of manner in
which your girls appear. Well, we came back to Minneapolis and the young men all met
the girls and they had dates at night, I suppose, and so on, and everybody talked about
this. But the grand payoff was the fact that we had a $500 balance from our first choral
club tour. And they meant Glee Club hadn't indebtedness and the grand piano in the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 1 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
chapel $500.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:40
So the girls help the men pay for the balance of that first grand piano. Well, that was the
way the choral club started. They kept up having a choral club and a choir until around
1933-34. When they merged into a cchoir their there's a great deal of feeling about that
we should still keep separate organizations. But Mr. Sateren who had succeeded Mr.
Opseth, was much interested in having a choir. So we had a choir, composed of the
women of the choral and the Men's Glee Club. And then Mr. I think Donald Merrick was
director of that when Leland Sateren came back to service after the war. And he picked
up the second choir, which was then called the Crocker, but that was also a mixed choir.
So they started out with mixed choir music at this point. And we've had these groups
going and much music going since. But one of the very wonderful things about music at
Augsburg College is that we've been in this Metropolitan Community where the arts have
been coming from the beginning of the Minneapolis Symphony under the leadership of
emo Oberhof are playing the old Lyceum downtown Minneapolis and 11th Street. As an
undergraduate student at University Minnesota, I remember very well the first concert I
went to, to hear over half or play direct. And I had heard symphonies and this but I had
not heard tone poems. And every time subsequent years when I go to hear the
Minneapolis Symphony, they play the pines of Rome or the fountains of Rome. My mind
goes back to that concert, and there was a Debussy number, and I'd never heard Debussy
before. I think they played the sea, America.
G
Gerda Mortensen 03:35
And it simply, I was speechles with the beauty of the music and the loveliness of this and
other Oh, this is what I want to be doing want to go here. Well, I had taken piano lessons
from Sverdrup The very delightful treasure of Augsburg College, who's a sister George
Sverdrup. She had graduated from the Minneapolis school music was a very able musician
herself, had given some piano lessons, but because of problems with the curvature of the
spine, she had found it very difficult to sit and play piano. So she had accepted this
position the treasure box pretty quick. She did with utmost beauty and dignity, and she
added something that was just very fine. But she had also taught piano to tennis girls fold
who was teaching voicera dogs forget the time that I came, and her sister sacred, who was
dietitian at deaconess, and who was organist at Trinity Lutheran Church for a period of 35
or 40 years was a four of us decided that we would buy season tickets for the Minneapolis
Symphony concerts. So for years, we went downtown to the old Lyceum, we bought the
cheapest tickets. We oftentimes walked is running there was a good worker. And then we
would talk over the music. So I learned music by listening to music. I didn't know I had
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 2 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
never formally studied music. But the thing just simply grew and grew, then over half or
left, and what was the name for Bruggen came. And we certainly get sort of tired, different
broken and Jenny, that piano violin is that he had, and then all at once, one day, it was
announced that we were going to have Eugene Armand DS director. He played directed
our Friday evening concert, and I was so excited. There's going to be an all Tchaikovsky
program and Sunday, I immediately went to the box office and bought tickets for my
whole family for the Sunday afternoon concert, and took everybody over there, including
Elizabeth, who's just a little little girl, but we sat and listened to the magnificent music that
he was able to bring out of that artist. He wasn't there many years and then he was
succeeded, but Dimitri metropolis, and we thought that we'd had the pinnacle with our
Monday.
G
Gerda Mortensen 06:01
But when this tall Athenian strode to the podium and directed this Symphony, it was
though it were all electrified over again. And I remember that opening concert, he did a
piano concerto with an orchestra and directed with his head and sat and played and
directed and oh, we just thought now. So we kept going year in and year out. This was a
Friday evening routine, listening to all this grand music. And then about in 1900 and 54.
We were approached by a subcommittee of the Minneapolis Symphony, in their interest to
try to bring the college's to, and more young people 10 the symphony orchestra concert,
they were starting something that they called Symphony forums, and they wanted to do a
pilot study with Augsburg College. Claire's German, I think, was in the Director of Public
Relations at that time, and he referred Stanley Hawks. And one Mr. London one, Mr. Zoe,
to me. So we sat down to talk about what we might do. It happened that my niece
Elizabeth Martin son, who was a major in music was chairman of music that year. So I
called her in And together, we sat down to talk about what we could do about selling
tickets, at a reduced rate to Augsburg College students and to Augsburg faculty. And then
three or two or three times a year, we would have the artists from the university come
over to meet with us. This just challenged everybody's interest. And that first year, two
thirds of our faculty and students, but this series of tickets, and this was an amazing sort of
thing. And in the program notes of that opening concert it talks about was with Martin's
and his Chairman, this committee, and that they had now established Symphony forums
at Augsburg College.
G
Gerda Mortensen 08:31
We arranged a dinner for all these people, faculty and students and anyone else who
would like to come and we were around 200 people in the old dining room. And on top of
the rat, he came over to talk to the group. And he talked about what constitutes listen to
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 3 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
music. How do you listen to music? And how does the symphony operate and how does
the symphony work? At the end of the evening, we felt as if we had been at some renewed
spirit heights. Anybody who had a deep interest in religion and spirituality felt that they
had been tremendously and noble by this experience. We have some pictures in the family
and in the archives of durante being there and I know Elizabeth has one that she
cherishes, highly taken with diversity because she had done this. We also had the privilege
of having Isaac Stern come over to Augsburg one evening to talk to the symphony, we
decided that it was better to have a symphony forum the evening before the concert so
that people could come and meet this person and then talk with him. Isaac Stern is
always very willing to do this kind of thing and was quite articulate. He brought his very
charming wife with him. We were all ready for this down in the Student Lounge of science
Hall. When r1 to electric stern came on and the lights went out well Garrett a new her
some candles were in the home maintenance department and some candlesticks. So she's
grounded around and found all kinds of candles and candlesticks. And that little old that
little not old but that that student lounge was just so delightful. Set somebody at the door
to meet the people with the candle and to light the past down. It just set such a sort of a
romantic kind of setting. And
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:34
Mr.--oh, the business manager of the Minneapolis Symphony--Oh well, I think it was
named a little later. But he escorted Mr. Mrs. Isaac Stern, and they came on down I don't
remember now whether I wonder if there was a mystery land in this mystery Ellie and I
think that they were there with us. at the dinner wonder about he was there. Donald
Dayton was present because he was on this board to try to interest young people in a
concert. But of course the fact that we had done set to superb job of selling to such a
large number of people was a tremendous incentive to these people. And subsequently,
they extended this service to our colleges. And busloads used to come from Carleton and
St. Olaf Angus Davis. Adolphus and from St. Catherine's now, but they always said you
people disappear beginning and and then the next year. Durante came back again. And
he talked about his own bringing up in Hungary and about listening to music. And he and
he talked about Bartok because he would Bella Bartok was one of his favorites. And he
talked about how as you grew up in in hungry, you just grew up with music as though
you're eating the soil and the spirit in the soul of a country. Well as students who were
there and listen to these just never forgot these things.
G
Gerda Mortensen 12:08
And other years, we followed up and tried to get some people to come over. But then
there gets be competition to go to the Masterpiece Series. And some other kinds of things
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 4 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
in the Minneapolis Symphony is changed to that they offer now to smaller series and
within these, and students still may buy tickets at discount. And we did in those early days
also have quite a few students who actually did the symphony. They had actually
downtown and they ushered over the Minneapolis Symphony, but then the music students
at the University of Minnesota got first chance and so they're less of them, but if they
really wanted to and didn't have money to buy tickets, then they could also you know,
make an effort and several of them did to get there. And now we have scrubber CHATZKY
and desert upcoming sim is in centennial year. We are speaking for the 19th of October to
have the Minneapolis Symphony play a Centennial concert. The original premiere of that
workflow Norway's work for orgs, written for Augsburg college choir, with the music
provided by the Minneapolis Symphony. The symphony will also want to play something
else they will play something Mozart, which relates to Mozart, whose home was in
Augsburg, Germany paying tribute to that connection. And also, they will play something
that they are already acquainted with. And so we're going to ask Mr. James Johnson
music department at Augsburg who has done the Greek concerto with a Minneapolis
Symphony and a concert at our place to do this at the university. Those were somehow
the beginnings of some of all of this.
G
Gerda Mortensen 13:50
Now talking about the University of Minnesota, we were just across the river, anybody
could walk over all the content, all the programs, all the lectures, all the workshops, all the
drama, they were open to us and faculty people at Augsburg, were always interested in
buying tickets, getting tickets, encouraging students to go. And so we have some of all of
this. We tried to think too, that there were some needs in our communities, we wanted to
reach out into the community to do something. And so one year, a number of us thought it
would be a very wonderful thing. If at Christmas time each year, we could bring members
of all the different churches in Minneapolis together to the Minneapolis auditorium TO
HAVE A Christmas Carol sing. Couldn't we start a create a new tradition to do something
like this? Well, I think we did it about three years. And we had quite a large number of
people coming. But then I think that with Claire's Germans coming to be in the Public
Relations Office, he didn't quite see the value of this. He didn't think it would be a going
thing. And so this idea was dropped only to be picked up by the Lutheran Welfare Society
using Luther College choir. At the core, our is the focal point and its director to put on
them as I every year at Advent on Advent Sunday.
G
Gerda Mortensen 15:22
This continued for many, many years. And many of the Augsburg choir people, anybody
who likes to sing could go and join the big mass choir that sang for the Messiah. I suppose
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 5 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
the year that this Messiah stood out as a greatest rendition was the year that Jenny's
girdles falls saying the alto so and john to whom Mr. Sateren described as the best tenor in
the Twin Cities, saying the tenor solos, Russia Schouler from the University of Minnesota
race, and I forgot to know who your soprano was. But our we were just as proud as we
could be of Jenny scribbles fold and john to because they had done it absolutely excellent
work. acquires took tours east and west and north and south. And we had a band that
had been started in 1900 and 52, when Mayor Subodh came to Augsburg, he had directed
MacArthur's band in the South Pacific during the war period. And it came to us much
interested in doing something with the band. I was in charge of freshman week that year.
And as I met him in the hallway, I needed to go to the bank. He said, Let me take you
down to the bank. And on the way we talked about, what could we do to build up a
number of people would like to be in the band. So we decided we write to all the freshmen
everybody to take any instrument along the table fade and bring them with them and
take them up to freshmen camp.
G
Gerda Mortensen 17:04
And so this we did, and out of that group, there were some 7080 students who brought
their instruments along and made us have all had the electric car they are being able to
bring out the best in these youngsters. And they played some had so much fun rehearsing
then, and it was a nucleus of a band which grew and grew and grew from then, until now
he is a highly selective band. He is a second band. He is a repertoires, cultured class with
people just simply get acquainted with a great deal with music. The band has played for
national conventions downtown and at one of these national conventions meeting in
Minneapolis. He met some people from England and from Europe, other places who are
attending, and he invited them to come to attend. What was known for a number of years
is the spring and Tiffany at Augsburg College, which was a creative use of music, music,
art, drama, and speech.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:07
Taking and this was always a second Sunday before Palm Sunday. Is it first or second?
Well anyway, before proceeding Palm Sunday. But we took the whole idea spring and
Tiffany is some creative way to express our own feeling about Easter about resurrection
about eternal life.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:31
And as these people that Mayo had invited to come from that national convention
walked out of Simon LB Hall where that person Tiffany was given. I overheard somebody
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 6 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
say, this is the most creative thing that I've seen in the line of music and all of us say this
reminds me of a story that Mr. Fauci, our chemistry professor told one time as he gave a
chapel talk, how are you going to learn how to appreciate the music, the mystery fast, he
was raised in the area of South Dakota, about the area where Roblox book giant in the
years had it setting. His family situation was such that he was not able to go to high
school until he was something like 15 1617 years of age. And so I think in two years, he
studied everything in high school and was ready to go on to college. In his home
community, there was a dear old country Fiddler. And he played the film. And he thought
there was just no music quite like the country Fiddler. So when he went to college, I don't
remember where this was. But anyway, he was always told that he should go and listen to
some other music and expand his interest in concert to music was, so he did go. And he
went to here concert and he went to your recitals. And he went to hear symphonies. But
all the time his thought went back to that country Fiddler. No music really came up to
what the country Fiddler was. And after he graduated, he went back to his home
community one time, and lo and behold, the country Fiddler was to play.
G
Gerda Mortensen 20:24
And lo and behold, he said, I discovered what I learned. And I had learned it by going to
listen, and listen, and listen. And imperceptibly I had grown. And I suddenly realized that
the symphony music and the beauty of all of this, this was what my soul really wanted.
And so it is also in the field of literature, you said, some people write books about flowery
frontier, it's in there so flowery, that they're just too heavy with perfume, and some
describe the backyard. So you see every pig and every bit of filth there ever is. You don't
need to see all the beauty, you don't need to see all the pills, you can find things that will
talk about things. And, and there can be something which is a happy medium between the
two. And something which is real and true and significant. And this is what's great
literature. So you can develop a capacity for great literature, and the capacity for great
music and the feeling that you have for art and for drama. by exposing yourself to these
things enough times until somehow by the process of osmosis. They've gotten into you
and they're part of your will bandwidth of your being. That was I've just never forgotten
that little talk by Mr. Fuzzy [audio cuts off]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.b Mortensen (4 of 4).wav
Page 7 of 7
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:02PM
64:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, people, minnesota, college, day, field, department, christensen, year,
accreditation, faculty, university, education, girls, lutheran, home, dean, moved, colleges
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mo... Show more
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of
4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:02PM
64:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
students, augsburg, people, minnesota, college, day, field, department, christensen, year,
accreditation, faculty, university, education, girls, lutheran, home, dean, moved, colleges
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
Gerda Mortensen 00:10
This is July 31, Marion Lindemann and I are still reminiscing, today we want to talk about
some of the things which we saw happening at Augsburg, which we think helped build the
present day liberal arts college, from developing liberal arts concept up through the years.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:01
Dr. Russell Cooper came to the University of Minnesota and as a representative with the
North Central Association, organize some meetings of the Minnesota private colleges.
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:15
Dr. Sverdrup invited Professor Hendricks and then me to go with him to attend the first
such one, at the College of St. Catherine's, at least this I think, is the first one. Besides
being served a most delicious dinner in five, six courses are the most delicious food and
the most beautiful dishes that I'd ever eaten of them. We had an amazing sort of meeting.
Sister Antonine was president college, St. Catherine's Anna, and very brilliant and able
woman, Dean Pike from the University of Minnesota had been on the staff of the Board of
Regents are the advisors and creating and building up the College of St. Catherine's. I'm
not sure whether he still was living at that time and was there. But anyway, this was the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 1 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
beginning of a series of meetings with the North Central Association, talking about
college teaching, and how to teach better and how to reach people, testing programs.
And all this and out of this school, the cooperative effort of all the colleges in the state of
Minnesota, to have a joint testing program, and to develop a form of application to
colleges, which are the college's used Augsburg College being a and they offer but was
always at the top of the list. But I know that we grew a great deal by the experience of
joining with these other people. During the days of pushing for some accreditation, we
had a number of students who wanted to go on to graduate school, the University of
Minnesota after I came to Augsburg, and I know that we were seeking various kinds of
creditor nation with the State Department in Minnesota.
G
Gerda Mortensen 03:01
And they said if you can be accredited by your different departments at the University of
Minnesota, then I think this was a step in the direction of accreditation. And I recall very
vividly the one day I came down from chaplain here to Dr. Craig from the history
department universe, Minnesota. And one other man who was starting to do some
examination of different departments. Dr. Craig has been my advisor when I did my
undergraduate work in history, and he said, Are you teaching history year? And I said yes.
And Professor Hendrix and well, if you and Hendrix and they're teaching history here, I
know the history department is ok. So we were accredited by the history department.
Marion Lindemann tells me that some man from the French department came over to see
her. And I know that number of the different departments. So department by department,
we were accredited by the University of Minnesota. This led to a kind of a State
Department accreditation. And I recall to that the graduate school, I think, under Dean
Ford made a survey of the kind of work that Augsbug College graduates had been doing
at the University of Minnesota and found a very credible record. And so our students
graduates were allowed to enter graduate school with in regular process after that. But I
recall that when some of the years students graduated and wanted to teach in states
other than Minnesota, that is very deep, oftentimes took the train to the State
Department in these different states, and talk to them and really sold them on the idea
and explain to them that a graduate of Augsburg College was really glad to to have an
educated institution that was accredited with the University of Minnesota and with the
Minnesota Department of Education. I know he made one such trip to Montana, he made
one such trip to Oregon went to trip the state of Washington, these were really costly, and
we're very difficult.
G
Gerda Mortensen 05:02
But he did them in order to help the students. So I think that out of an experience, which
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 2 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
grew out of the church together with our growing relationship with the University of
Minnesota, in this accreditation, was a workshop that the North Central, no, not the North
Central the American Lutheran Church made. There was an American Lutheran
conference formed by several of the church body bought joining together the then he sees
the AOC, the August tennis ended, and several others, they set up several commissions.
And among the Commission's that were established was one called the commission and
higher education. The executive secretary of that department was Dr. JCK. price was still
living, retired from his work for some some years ago. He was an April scholar and an
April, administrator. Among the people on his commission, I know Dr. George served at
one time whether Dr. Bernard Christensen was concurrent with that or not, I don't know.
But in the fall of 1935, Dr. Price had sent and this commission had sent invitations to all the
Lutheran colleges in the United States to meet at St. Olaf College. The first weekend in
October. Some four or 500 people came to that conference. Of course, there were several
hundred faculty people at St. Olaf, but there were representatives from Pacific Lutheran
University and the West Coast. Oops, our college and Wagner in the East Coast. And
happily, Dr. Craftsman from Valparaiso, the Missouri Synod was there. And he was an
ardent follower of this group all those particular years. And many all the colleges of this
Midwest area from the Appalachians to the Rockies.
G
Gerda Mortensen 07:22
They talked a great deal about the philosophy of Christian higher education. And I think
maybe they call Lutheran higher education. But like, in America, he said, why should say
always Lutheran because some of these places aren't just Lutheran isn't a Christian rather
than just Lutheran. This was one of the distinctions that we need to take a look at and
know. Now, just prior to this, Arthur Nash, at Augsburg headed a years sabbatical in order
to travel to New Zealand and Australia, and a workshop with a woman from the
university, so who is heading up this research, and I had had is a years leave of absence
flew out and teach in China during these times and these experiences where we visited
other countries and visited other colleges and universities. Again, I think the tool has got a
great deal outlook, something which we needed so early, to sort of bolster up the idea of
what kind of beds we should have in some of our educational programming. Shortly after
this, that to spread died, and entrepreneurs Christians, Christensen succeeded as
president Professor HN. Hendrickson served as acting president the year between one of
the things that Hendrickson asked me to do for him that year, said so many people are
wanting to go into social work and social work is upcoming field. So he asked me if I
would make a study and bring a report to him requirements in the curriculum for courses,
which would be necessary to lead up to the graduate school and social work at the
University of Minnesota. This I did other things I found there should be a survey course, the
introduction to home economics. Subsequently, we hired Mrs. Springer, to be our dietitian,
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 3 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and she taught two classes of introduction to home economics, his general education in
what had been the old laundry rooms at Morton Hall. But we will have another recording
session and bring all these people together, who worked with the Home Economics at
Augsburg. This is just to note that it is coming. But we also found that it would be very
important then, in this discussion with Dr. Christensen and Dr. Martin clambake, who had
been brought to Augsburg in the fall of 1930.
G
Gerda Mortensen 10:01
1938 38, I suppose was in the fall of 38. That we would need to make a preliminary survey
of what it would require to become a member of the North Central Association. We
learned that Dr. Neil NEA le at the University of Minnesota Professor of Public school
administration was on an examine committees in our central Association. And he also
made a practice of doing a private survey of colleges following the pattern so that we
engage to the services of Dr. Neil to make therapy. This was at a time when they were
discussing the pros and cons of whether to move out to Augsburg Park, or to stay on the
particular campus where we were just completed the in 1938 39 was a stretch above the
down Memorial Hall, which is very stupid day, given his last measure of physical strength
for and with this one new building located there. It seemed hard to think in terms of
moving out to dog park. Dr. Neil interviewed many people pro and con about accepting
that invitation to go out to Augsburg Park and build there. But his strong recommendation
at the end of these studies was that we stay and become a Metropolitan College. There
are many suburban colleges, but there are very few and there is no Lutheran Metropolitan
College. He spoke very enthusiastically about mandolin College in Chicago, adjacent to
Loyola University, which mandolin is a college for women. You know at that time, he spoke
about that as a beginning one who was that was doing a very excellent kind of thing.
G
Gerda Mortensen 12:10
Well, no Capital University is located in Columbus, Ohio, that's losing his former ALC. But
most of the colleges are located in rural towns or out of the country. Since then, of course,
Carthage College has moved from a rural community and Illinois to to the shores of Lake
Michigan, north of Chicago, and one of those separate towns. So it really is in the city. And
of course, I think the Missouri Synod have number of schools that are in cities. But at least
at this time, we made this recommendation was very strong, to stay where we were in to
plan to build and to develop our college there. So following this report, this study made by
him, which indicated a number of our great weak spots, especially in our business affairs
and our business arrangements. Then we moved on to develop for as a faculty, a five year
program, this we should do each year for five years. And having completed that five year
period, then we had corrected some of these glaring mistakes. At least we thought we
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 4 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
were current, and made application to nurse central Association for accreditation. This
meant a year long study and reports and blanks. Now these copies of these are on file, I'm
sure in the dean's office or in the DNS records. And I remember very vividly that they came
to examine us one day I'd been having about was a flu. And I'm pretty day probably was
walking around with a walking pneumonia anyway, I went over to the Memorial Hall
dining room to meet these people. And we were going to talk and I became violently ill
and it'd be taken home and and i think it sort of threw the monkey wrench into the whole
business of what we're trying to do. At least they recommended that we wait a few years.
Before we Well, let's see the application went in. And at that time, we didn't have a library,
except the old library, which had been expanded the ground floor of what is now called
Old Main.
G
Gerda Mortensen 14:47
And we were turned down and accreditation. They said really you have enough going for
you so that we could give you accreditation, accepted if we give you a education now you
will delay getting your library. And we just feel that a new library is an exceedingly
essential part of this. Some of this you will find I'm sure in the references in the
correspondence that regard to that that's on file. So the question was, what are we going
to do? How are we going to get the money, our church body had decided that we would
have to have $100,000 pledged before the annual meeting in order to be able to raise the
money? Well, this was around 1900 5152. And in the spring of the year of 1900 52. One of
the senior boys had been in service Russell Berg and his fiancee, Esther Larson, who was
just finishing herself or here said to me the truth conference is going to be in Seattle this
summer. Why don't you come and go out west with us right out with us. Russell had
bought a car. dad and my sister and her family are coming for the meeting, mother's
staying home getting ready for the conference. Why don't you ride out with us and one of
the other boys is going to ride out to so before in our car and dad and my sister has been
two little boys and the other car. And I said oh, wouldn't that be fun and just walked away
thinking that no students are going to ask the Dena women to ride out west with him. In
the afternoon those two young people came into my office and they're Russell said I'm
dead serious misfortunes. And we'd like to have you ride out with us. Mother can't come in
as his mother can't go out. And we two boys don't want to ride along just with Esther, we
really love to have you come. So the upshot of the matter was, I did go and you don't drive
2000 miles was following the young people who accepted you as an equal.
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:51
And I discovered again, the tremendous insight that they had into the running of the
college, and the deep concern and the deep interest. And I talked about many things. And
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 5 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
of course, they want to know just why didn't we get accreditation with our central? Why
were we turned down. And then Russell said, you know, we should tell dad some of these
things. But he got off to Seattle, Nothing doing. He wanted me to have his room at his
home. So he and his boyfriend took some bunks down in the basement and I was extra
guests in the home. I went to visit some of my relatives for a week after the annual
conference was over. And then was coming back on the train. And we were having a
picnic down on the beach. And Russell said come on now level with that level with that. So
I started to tell some of the inside problems that we had at the institution. And the
tremendous need that there was for this library for the accreditation. And when I get
through talking about all these things, Mr. Berg said, I'd like had a chance to raise
$100,000 for you. I said, may I tell my president this when I come home? Yes, he said
anyway. So I went immediately to the president's office. And the letter was dispatched
that very day to him, inviting him to come and to do this. But he and Mrs. bird came in the
fall. And they were my houseguests for about two months. And Gilberg traveled much of
the time. And he got sick world Yama to come with him. And they traveled up into North
Dakota, all around to the sea and to do different things, meet different people. And on his
own at his own expense, giving all this time just travel. He came to the annual conference
set following June with $100,000 pledged. And so great way with clear to go ahead and
to build this library providing we could get the accreditation that this introduced him to
Augsburg and he would always come for homecomings. And I remember one year he said
I owe my interest in Augsburg to go to Martin's and the visit that she made to our home
and the sharing of the needs of this institution with us. He was subsequently elected to the
Board of Regents and served for 10 years. During that time, he really started to have our
colleagues administration put on a really better business basis. He was a businessman
from Seattle, he knew business.
G
Gerda Mortensen 19:45
He went down to visit Valparaiso University studied the way in which they promoted
things. And we had the advice of a finance advisor for a number of years after that. But
this was an incentive to get the money. And having gathered the money, we built the
building. And then we wrote, again to make an application for accreditation with our
central. And this time, we had to have a year long study. So it would take us a whole year.
And at the end of the year. Again, the examiners were to spend a day with us. And at nine
o'clock in the morning, I was to be together with the other administrative people in the
President's conference room meeting with these people. 10 minutes of nine that morning,
a student from Martin Hall came crashing into my room and she said, we found someone
to up in the attic, with sheets ready to commit suicide? What should we do? Well, I dashed
over to the room and immediately called her college physician, who in turn call
psychiatrists. And he said keep an eye on that girl all day. I said I will have to have
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 6 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
parental permission to ask wiser. And they live in the country. So I got these two girls,
roommates of this girl to not go to classes, but keep watching her all morning. The college
doctor was coming on campus, and the psychiatrist was alerted. So I came 15 minutes late
to that meeting. And then I needed to put on the longest after the hour was over. I said I
was an index. And it simply had to be excused because it's an emergency it isn't. But they
accepted this. And then when the man was in having a conference with me about my
work, I had put in a long distance call to the Father.
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:55
But they lived in a rural telephone line. And I said some emergencies happen Would you
please get to a private phone and call me back. And I couldn't understand why a whole
hour went by before he called back. He called back to say there has been such a
snowstorm out here. I had to wait until the worst of the snowstorm was over so that I could
get to town to telephone. When I explained the situation he gave me permission to then
then this meant this when I when this I said this tell for this emergency calls come you're
welcome to sit here and listen to the conversation or to step out whichever you wish, what
he decided to step out. But I arranged then and then telephone immediately to the doctor
and all and said that I personally would bring her out to Glenwood hills at five o'clock
when I will be through with some of these meetings. But that day which was so crucial for
us here I was faced with these most awful situation and then all went to girl said she
slipped out of her hand somewhere we don't know where she is on the she'd gone to get
her mail or something and then they hit located again. But by five o'clock when I walked
into the hospital with her and met the psychiatrists, and she was registered in and I could
finally having given it over two dinners. When my way home. I thought I had never lived
through that kind of a day. And what kind of impression with these people have of me
and my work? Well just look up to the record of the report when we were credited and see
what they say about Garrett and Martin's. There were two people, faculty people that
were singled out for distinctive comment when they created this. One was Ernie Anderson
is the head of Physical Education Department. And his standard describes athletes
athletics is concerned. And the second person was Gary Martin. Who is doing well. At least
credit to see Marion is insisting didn't tell her well, it just said that she is just Well, they
were disapproved of things. And Dr. Christensen said to me afterwards, you got us
accredited was an art center Association. Yes, I think so.
G
Gerda Mortensen 24:27
So of course I was terribly happy because I had really gotten Gilberg to get interested. But
it was a student that private me his own son that prompted me to do this. And these
students confident in me and in my interested in institution, and they're showing their
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 7 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
interest. And then in turn getting Mr. Bird to come I opened my home for them they were
there and and I'm caught some of these things encourage them. And OES set for he had
his 50th birthday and discovered it was the same day that Bernard Kristensen had 15th
birthday. So they had open house over there. Now everybody spoke very fondly of Dr.
Christensen. They either used his initials BMCZ spoke about him or Dr. Christensen. And
when Gilbert came in, he slapped him on the shoulder and said, Hi, Bernie, how are you?
So we we were credited with the North Central Association. This made a very wonderful
feeling among the people on the faculty and the students at the college catalog and now
carry the statement fully credit with the North Central Association. This was a very
important aspect of the student need that had been met. Faculty felt very happy about
this. And proceeded immediately to make a five year plan again for a study of the growth
and development of the college faculty study committees reshare we had some faculty
workshops every fall with sometimes an extra week of summer school workshop. In
addition to this, in order to try to take a look at the problems of the growing College and
the needs for a current college. That was meeting the needs of today. Data Christensen
came as president box for college without the experience of being trained and
administration. He immediately set forth and his brilliant wife with him to study and read
everything possible that they could lay their hands on, on the problems of higher
education in the United States.
G
Gerda Mortensen 26:43
The progressive movements within higher education the United States and immediately
became became friends with Ruth Eckert Paulson, at the University Minnesota and other
people attended the national convention. And and I think intellectually equipped
themselves both Dr. Christensen and his wife to know what some of the trends were and
what some of the needs were. In. in those early years, we had a feeling that they were
really they intellectual leaders, they had a scope and their own education and scope in
their intellectual thinking, which rubbed off on to other faculty people. And we felt that
here, we had real intellectual leaders, as well as spiritual leaders. adapter, Nash was asked
to be Dean of the College for a year, he served a year and then he said to me one day, I
just can't be the Dean of the College. Because I don't feel that that Christensen comes in
and talks over problems with me. He talks him over with his wife at home and comes with
these ideas. And this is it and we all felt this way. When he came on, he asked us all to sit
down and he scrapped everything we ever had in student personnel work. And he wanted
this to simply to start from scratch all over again. It was very difficult I know. And some of
those first years, I resigned by letters three times, I said, I can't stand this, I have to have
the scope to work and move. And to do as I think is right to do and the insight that I've
gained. And so graduate after Christmas and came to census and to realize it. And when
we moved into the setup and decided to have student personnel work, he said, Now I want
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 8 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
you to be coordinators, student activities, so all the Student Life on the campus is under
your direction. So I really was an associate dean of students, which Title I didn't get until
my retirement year. It was an honorary promotion, Dr. Anderson said it carried no financial
increment. So on is accepted to but this was one of the things that I think that the North
Central Association workshop in problems of higher education to University Minnesota
had one or two people at Augsburg College continuously from 1945.
G
Gerda Mortensen 29:20
Through all the years, some problem which needed to further study at Oxbridge was taken
by some faculty person. And I remember when we were starting to talk about building a
college center, college union Student Union, that I asked the inquiry one day, there's
anybody done anything in background, the philosophy of what is needed in all of this?
Maybe this is a topic that should be selected, maybe Mrs. Peters and your barn or Ernie
Anderson, or somebody turned around and said, Well, I think maybe you better go. So I
went from my third workshop and problems apparently education, and did the
preliminary study for the philosophy and the basis on which you're going to develop a
college center. These workshops and came back and with reports, and we tried to
implement some of these things that we had learned. And also at this time, other teachers
were encouraged to go to national conventions. There had been no but for national
conventions earlier, although doctors allowed me to go to conventions of the resistors.
Sometimes I had to pay my own expenses. But I just felt that a national convention, to
keep me abreast with my professional field was a necessity. And when Peter armor class
came, and they were talking about other people taking turns each three people in
department taking one year each in which to go to national convention, I said
administrative people and people in administration should go every year, you can't
possibly wait every three years. Two great changes are occurring in all of this feeling. So he
agreed to this. And the last years that I was there, I went to conventions with expenses
paid every year on these things had some implication as you came back and tried to
implement many of these. So we needed to keep accredited and keep growing. One of
the areas that needed more strengthening was the Business Administration. We also
needed to know where we were going to go and current educational trends.
G
Gerda Mortensen 31:38
The year that Mr. Harbo was acting president, we had the Booz Allen Hamilton study. And
they made a survey of us to see where we should go and head for the next five years, the
next 10 years. And this last year 1960 evidence 68 the business department and the
business director arrange to have a study made and so at this point, Mr. posses become
the Administrative Assistant to the President. And there is a new program plan for the
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 9 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
financial record keeping in the development of some of these things at the college. But
these are all things which were steps in the direction of accreditation, we were again
examined by n Kate, or we were examined first about seven years ago. And we were given
the accreditation, and Kate for higher for the high school education that we're training for
secondary schools, and then temporary accreditation for elementary education. But if you
listen to the are taped interview with Martha Maxim, you see that we were given full
accreditation with NK now for elementary education. And it's a real appreciation the kind
of work when she came in the insight that she had as to what should be taught in
clambake had gone to a workshop in higher education and came back with a program,
which we thought would be the kind of coursework which we needed for setting up a
department we all enjoy each occasion. And she being interested in this area, I asked her
to take a look at it. And she said well, then didn't come back. He had to talk with her and
he and he said we'll come back with what you would think would be a course. So she sat
down on the basis of the needs teachers, it's a to me, I have not about a course in
elementary education, which I would like to suggest. And this subsequently, of the Martin
clambake somewhat reluctantly gave up the full plan which he thought was perfect to
bowed out as it were to her. And the department structured is Martha Madson thought it
should be. And she has done demonstrated, in the years since that this has been
exceedingly important and very effective program. We could do well to do something
with secondary education along the same line.
G
Gerda Mortensen 34:18
Of course, a college is composed of students and faculty. I think over the years of some of
the people who started some of the strengths in their various departments. RB nail came
as a first teacher of science. He was there dogs frequent I came a very simple little
laboratory down on the ground floor of Old Main and exceedingly simple little Physics
Laboratory. But in that Physics Laboratory, somebody's been experimenting with a radio.
And at that time, headline radio stations, Physics Laboratory, and second for a day, these
girls Walden I were offered is to provide some music for the radio, we were sorry that we
didn't have money enough to be able to continue this. But after a while, the station went
off the air and subsequently WCAO picked up the air and you get all the sort of thing that
we could do. But nails stayed for a while and then moved on. But among his students was
Arthur Nash, who spent a lifetime in service in science at Augsburg College. And he got his
beginning through the work with RB now. But to have science come into the curriculum at
this time, meant that we're really reaching out into different aspects of a current
curriculum. And beyond the idea that you're just educating men for the ministry, although
it might be a good thing for some of the men in the ministry to note something about
science. Following now, we had, I think, several other people in between, but then came
Mr. Fossey, who, during the poverty period at Augsburg was able to, to teach science in
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 10 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
such a way that he was the teacher of a number of people who've gone into research.
G
Gerda Mortensen 36:18
Among those who really admired and followed in his footsteps in research and studied
Margaret Hubbard, always paid tribute to Mr. Fosse. The hard, hard work was some very,
very difficult. And she became, went into the field of nursing. And then she for a number of
years was head of neurological Nursing at the best Institutes of Health. And now she is in
the huge department of the government. And she is a counselor to schools of nursing who
want to set up trainings programs for the education of training nurses for neurological
issues. She has a highest position in the government, she has a highest rank as an armed
forces person, of any of the women that have ever gone to Augsburg. She's on the
centennial commission. Then we during the war period, here we needed to have
somebody to come in to be in the field of chemistry. We had brought to America and
Estonian refugee by the name of Mar, Nevada, Audrey. He was also taking work at the
University of Minnesota to to learn the English and to learn to do some advanced work.
And it was going on for a master's degree program at the University of Minnesota and on
later toward a doctorate. But we needed the second man in the field. At that time, we
asked Mr. George Michaels news on the faculties University and asked him who he knew if
you could recommend somebody and he recommended the Mr. Stanley reminisce key. So
the one problem with Mr. reminisce key is that he is Catholic at this early period at
Augsburg nearly everybody I suppose Marian Lindemann as Mary Wilson was the first big
change in the policy of just hiring Lutheran people to teach this I had been told that Mr.
reminisced he went to his priest and asked his permission to accept his teaching position
at Augsburg College and his preset yes he could do that providing he didn't take part in
any of the religious kind of activities to which then responded that they have a policy that
you expected to go to chapel there and I if I cannot accept the position unless I can do
this. But you may go to chapel providing you're participating.
G
Gerda Mortensen 39:02
And Stanley Romanesque he was always at Chapel any encourage students. He
announced in his classes when Spiritual Emphasis Week was coming. And he met students
he said well don't do you're going the wrong way we are belong in Chapel at this point.
And Stanley reminisce key and Marvel agree with the two who had the chance to help
plan the present day chemistry laboratories and science Hall and having planned and
they had the opportunity and the heavy responsibility of moving wherever equipment
there was over to the site or setting up all those laboratories. And carrying by hand
quantities in quantities and quantities of these things that were required for this new
laboratory. In the field of English, there were still many people who were born in Norway,
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 11 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
who came to orgs. And with the advent of Reverend Peter a sphere again, came a new
day in the field of English. Here was a man I don't remember the date was in 19 1516. Under
15 I wonder if it wasn't about 1915 because Harold my brother spoke about him so often.
But here was a man who spoke perfect English. And he could in his English classes,
everybody had to have speeches, public speeches one day a week, and he would correct
these. And I recall after I came to Augsburg in 1923, that on one occasion Mr. reverent all
of Rodney was paying tribute to pa spag and saying thank you for all the patients you had
with us in pronouncing the SS. And the TH is well leafs virgin brand life bow.
G
Gerda Mortensen 41:01
And Bernard Helland. And many of these men paid very high tribute to the kind of insight
and the opening horizon that there was for the teaching of English which had changed so
remarkably, with the advent of swag and among his students who have since done
tremendous piece of work in our English department, I can mention and Peters news still is
there in this for many years acted as head of the English department, and Gerald Thorson,
who now is it to have college but who was head of the department at the impact of this
kind of thing. And the opening of horizons was very, very enriching to many of these
people. In the field of history, there was this man who sat at his desk in that one room and
was a registrar. And the registrar consisted of one man Professor HN Hendrix, new taught
history. But he was a perfect, groomed little gentleman, he taught Latin as well. There was
a hair never a hair out of place, he had a shoe brush that was in his desk. And when he
came into the office, he always looked just perfect. His grooming was his. He's singing, he
loved other kinds of things. He worked with people. But when students came in, he'd sit
down and talk with them and ask them where they had been, what courses it had, what
kinds of things they were like. And I can remember once when Omer Johnson came to
register, and he said his name was spelled OMER or OMAR and Professor Hendrickson
said, you are going to be a college educated man, you cannot have a name like that. You
that is a corruption of the name of Homer. So I'm going to read this to you as Homer
HOMER, Homer chance. That's a perfect name.
G
Gerda Mortensen 42:59
Well, among this student said he had was one Carl Chrislock, who today's head of the
history department, and he is doing a splendid piece of work in the field, and a writer, a
creative writer at present engaged in writing the history of Augsburg College, I also had a
chance to do some teaching in history. And when I had Carl Chrislock is a student in my
class--oh, I also had Paul Sonnack and Joel Torstenson and Irving whole and a number of
others who have distinguished themselves as students regardless of the teaching the had-but Carl Crisler did a term paper on the populist movement. And he is in right now being
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 12 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
published by the Minnesota State Historical Society a volume, which he has written about
the Minnesota which is headed impetus or the seed planted as far as that class in history
was concerned. Joel Torstenson and took the paper that he'd written a paper term paper
farming and large it for his master's degree thesis at the University of Minnesota. It was a
subject which had to deal with the Lutheran Church and slavery during the Civil War
period. He has been interested in negro rights and negro problems all his life. And I think
he gained some real deep insight as he did that preliminary work for me and then
followed up later at the University. In the Department of Christianity, of course, when I
came to Augsburg there was as dean of men, Mr. Professor Simon, lb, who was not only the
Dean of men, but he was the head of the religion department. And he was the head of the
Physical Education Department, a rare combination of a great big he man who could
relate to students and to the men students, who also knew all the little finances that he
could contribute in many ways. And he said, Well, if you really want to know good,
manage, just buy a book and read it and practice it.
G
Gerda Mortensen 45:13
I think that I was sort of PQ nation and wanted to deal with a little delicate, individual
things where he could see things in a big scope. I recall one time, the state Dean's women
asked us each to bring our dean of students along. And I was most proud of Mr. Melfi
because he could handle themselves very well with everybody that was there. And I can
remember we had a Unitarian pastor was speaking. And he took issue with some of the
things that he said, and they had a little lively discussion during the noon hour. And the
deans of women said to me afterwards, my Aren't you lucky to have a man like that to be
your dean. Then came data Christensen, to the faculty and both in the field of philosophy,
BN in the field of Christianity, who is a scholar, and who, in everything that he read and
thought and said, seemed to reflect this tremendous scope of scholarship. in this field of
higher education in the fields of religion, we had Paul select later, and Philip Quebec, both
of whom, who turned some outstanding kind of work in this field. They are the kind of men
that students say, we go to these classes, they take us help us orient our whole field of
knowledge and thinking, and they do not make up our minds for us, but they show us how
we can make up our own minds, and challenge us to do the right kind of thinking. I've had
students say that the most valuable class that they've ever had at college was of course,
either with Sonic or with this is a marvelous kind of thing. And it is a way in which one can
really do something. adapter Christensen, who was always interested in great ideas, he
was a student in the seminary when I first came to Augsburg, and I recall that he had
selected 12 students at school who were the the best intellectual students and these men
had in one evening men only evening, where they talked about ideas. But he's always
been a man who is like to talk about ideas. And in his early years as a faculty person in
evening school work, which he inaugurated, and had some special classes and evening
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 13 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
school, in deputation work wherever it was trying to get a few people together to talk
about ideas, not about people, not about things, but about ideas and how you can
implement ideas.
G
Gerda Mortensen 47:48
Of course, we had people who were characters like, and you love them for the warmth of
the person that they were. Dr. Image, I suppose, was one of these people who was a
teacher, German, who loved the German language, he looked as if he both need to be dry,
wet washed, his and his toupee needed to be dry, cleaned also, and brought down to wear
to a little gray of his hair, the fringe which hanged on black, but students who wanted to
really talk to somebody, I suppose Dr. Image did more informal counseling with students
than practically anybody else at school. And he had all kinds of love for people and
warmth. People took his class in German, because he was really a delightful person. Not
that they learned too much German characteristic would be first thing in the morning, he
would point to one of the girls and he said, Have you had breakfast yet? Shame on you,
you have to have breakfast before you came to class. Well, one never knew what was
going to come. I can remember one chapel talk to when he spoke to the chapel, students
and he said, this is a dangerous place. I repeat, this is a dangerous place. Students were
listening. Because one never knows what kind of challenge God is going to make you in
this dangerous place. But be ready for it. Then we had in the language department to
Marion Lindemann coming to teach in French. And an earlier record I've talked about
some of them are coming. But Marion was not a Lutheran. Marian was not a Scandinavian
background.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:36
Marian came representing liberal arts. She came came to teach French. Did you also
teach Spanish to begin with? French. We didn't have Spanish Spanish was later. Little
Latin sometimes to help Hendrickson? But Marian came from the University of Minnesota
via...France where she had spent a summer. I shall never forget that entrance at the
magnificent, beautiful woman made onto our campus and into our lives. And how she
could like simple little me, I don't know. But she represented scholarship, refinement,
culture, centuries of breeding, all this kind of thing. She brought into our society at
Augsburg a quality of life that was more American than we were. We were still very much
an immigrant people. And I think many of us reached out for this quality in our life. And
this kind of something. When it came to counseling students, she said give me those who
are the non Lutherans and those who are on the fringe benefit fringe of the community.
And truly many of these people came and and sought her out, but in their quiet way. And
then especially, I think, a very wonderful way in which she could talk, education with Dr.
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 14 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Sverdrup. This led to an influence that was exceedingly meaningful in the development of
the college curriculum. She didn't come to many of the social things we did, she didn't do
some other things. But she was a part of our academic community that had some very
high standards, and herself capable teacher who demonstrated how she could be a friend.
And students who took a class in French not only learn the language, but they learned to
love it, and some of the culture of that people. Not only of that people, but of the breadth
of the world of knowledge that Marion moved around and with such perfect ease.
G
Gerda Mortensen 52:00
To assist in this foreign language department later came Mimi Kingsley, a beautiful Latin
lady. Here we are fortunate at Augsburg at times, somebody comes to the University of
Minnesota and their spouse wants to do something in the field teaching. And so it was
with me kings layer has been as on the faculty at the University of Minnesota, where they
have a regulation that no two members of the same family should be teaching. At least
that was the rule then. And we inherited lovely Mimi Kingsley, who speaks two languages
perfectly without any accent at all. She is an American made amazing piece of work in
the field of Spanish. And again, she has these high standards of quality that she can
somehow impart to our students and the great expectations. Don't peter out. And Ruth
Schmidt, who is has earned her doctorate in Spanish is one of the prized pupils that she
has had. In the field of drama, it took a long time before we could have somebody but
after we had decided that drama was a legitimate part of it. We had a Lucy made
Bergman come. And we did some operators and we did some serious drama. And then we
had Miss Eileen Cole and Dr. Esther Olsen come until we have developed in the field of this
some of the ideas that are really strong in the field to trailer. Dean Corbett came in the
field of education and helped us establish a much better background in the community
and and has been representative and many state committees and then some national
committees in developing the educational program for our own state of Minnesota is
highly respected for his contributions here. Later as he became Dean of the College, Dr.
Henry Britain is came to be in the education department and did a singular kind of
organization and set up a practice teaching program. And all this was just excellent. And
the fruit of that work is still being felt music and effort XR to other integral parts of the
community.
G
Gerda Mortensen 54:30
Way back in 1923 we had just barely started to have intercollegiate basketball. And we
were admitted into the Minnesota conference of basketball. And I can recall the
excitement that there was when we loaded up all the students in buses and went down to
Central College to play our first intercollegiate basketball game. Every student at school
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 15 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and I think every faculty, I think we had five six charted buses and there was one adult
person on each one and lo and behold, didn't we win this game? And one of the
cheerleaders for Sandoval had been in the academy at Augsburg Reverend theater Hi
Mark to the Good Shepherd. And I can still see the incredible surprise when I discovered
the dog sprig. We live August know when from them. Subsequently we went into football
and I can remember that we also did some rather startling thing by winning from Chris
Davis Adolphus when we played football one time. But the development of this program
under the leadership of Simon LB was passed on to Deke pouts, I suppose it was who
came in, then he went into the war. And then we had James Peterson, who had a different
concept of what the whole field of education for leisure should do. And in this the
importance of the activity of the individual, instead of so much emphasis upon
intercollegiate athletics, he wanted us to think in terms of the intramural getting more
people out there actually participating, doing things, learning to do things with their
hands, learning other sports, so we added other sports to our program in our curriculum.
G
Gerda Mortensen 56:24
And then oh, in the interests of the building a sort of a good community spirit. He had
talked to Dr. Sverdrup, and with me about when the first beautiful spring day comes, let's
have a skip the and dismiss school and go on our walk along the Mississippi River are too
many Park. But it turned out to be a beautiful spring. And so each day, this particular
week, Monday, we met in that disparate IPS office. Is this the day Oh, it's a Friday day of
warps. No, let's wait to see what it's like tomorrow. So tomorrow came and it was a little
warmer and more nice sunshine and the grass getting greener in the bugs coming up and
the trees. No, let's wait one day more. So I think it was on a Wednesday, we decided this
was the day that we were going to have our first skipped a doctor. And doctor spiritual at
the close of the chapel service said to the students, it is very beautiful day today that the
faculty decided that it would be very fun to dismiss classes and everybody go out to the
park and have a very wonderful day. And the students couldn't believe their ears to what
they were hearing. And that is fair to say, well, we really amended Are you interested? And
then Jimmy Peterson got up to announce that we were going to form in lines in 15 minutes
in front of them right in the center of the campus. And we were going to march out. And
he had men made arrangements, we would have food and coffee and donuts out beyond
Lake st page where we would gather and then we would hike out too many. And they
would have all kinds of recreation. There. People could bring their baseball bats and they
could bring their badminton and they could have softball teams, they could go hiking,
they could do this and we would have a huge picnic separate. This was the first time and I
don't know who the other man was. But I think we have a film on this in the historical
library somewhere. [Note: search for "Augsburg Skip Day 1947" on YouTube]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 16 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 58:38
And I think Professors Sveggen was one of the two first men that lead this hike, they went
out this big and I hiked out those five miles many a year with those students and stayed
and played all time till the end of the day. We never separate and picked up and metal
and fam family people could grow home and get pick up their families and take them
along. But it built a tremendous bridge of warmth and friendliness. And trying to help
people to be creative in learn how to enjoy simple things and the outdoors. And to do
things just with each other, just just to be happy. So this was the way our skip days started.
Well, we added other kinds of sports, we had a very difficult time finding some physical
education for women. We go over and rented the gymnasium at Monroe school and the
girls wonder were there for Tim. And we have to get this is the bond Peterson and the
people who worked in physical education together in RJ have a separate tape recording
above this. But this is a part of some of the things that came and after Jim BP and left
then we had a Mr. Ernie Anderson coming back from the word service in between we had
the handsome Robert Carlson as there and we had Kelly Swanson, who worked with us in
the nr department who later went to St. Joe college, who's retiring this year incidentally
from sandwich. Then we had the field of music and Augsburg people had always been
known how to sing. I can recall when I first came to Augsburg, the faculty sat and chairs
on the platform in the chapel. There was something like two 300 students over 35 girls I
know from where I said I could always count quickly to see 35 if all my proteges were in
Chapel, but that first day as I sat down and the chair next to Bill me who's and Anna
monger and just I sat right below the bust of Professor Georg spared. And I could
remember as a child, when I lived in Minneapolis, I had gone to commencement with my
father and mother. And we sat in a second pew. And professors Phaedra came and sat
down in front of us before the service was to begin. And he turned to me and he said, Dr.
Davis, Dr. This is your daughter. Yes, this is Garrett. You're hoping to box up to be in may
get a sneak peek. I hope that you will grow up to be a good little girl. A good person.
G
Gerda Mortensen 61:35
So somehow this is geared the older spirit. And so this was in 1923 that had been in 1986.
So here I started felt as if the spirit of the man was reaching out to give me a little blessing
upon my work cited starting as a dean of women at this college. But the singing, these
students could sing, they love to sing. And there was of course a Glee Club going there
had been sextet, there had been quartets there had been gospel duels, there had been all
kinds of singing but singing was Integra later on in the year among the 35. Women some
came to me and said we should really start a girls good. So I went to Mr. upsets who had
come to be the teacher of music at that time and the director of the male choir or male
Glee Club. As until all 35 girls came with whatever boys or lack of boys, they had to just
demonstrate that they had this interest. So we practiced in this true upsets put us through
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 17 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
our paces. And we were getting ready after Christmas to prepare for a little concert tour.
In one of the girls came to me and she said Miss Morton's we've gotten this girls good club
started now. They call it the crowd. We've gotten it started. And some of us just simply
can't think and this is just awful agony for us. But we've done the cause, you know, can you
talk to Mr. Upset to single out now 20 people or the group that he thinks could be used for
this? So Jenny squirrels for who taught voice and I who is taking some voices from Jenny
and who could sing a little, we always traveled with this girls, the club called the crowd
club. And Mr. upsets played the cello. So we took his cello along, and the first year we
went out on a tour. Well it happened that the second year I was a dog spring, a broken
ankle, and I had to walk around in 25 with high shoes and and crutches for quite a while.
And the following year, I had to have surgery for gallbladder in January, and we're going
to start this tour in March. And that is very upset. Oh you have to go with the girls and
their first tour. We can't possibly let these girls go out alone without you with it. And it was
hard for me to carry even when one purse because in those days they operated from
Northeast southwest and we have 23 stitches I had been laid wide open. Well, after this I
just said yes, I'll go with them. But they girls carried my suitcase. They carried my
handbag and they gave me the best place we could halfway through the tour. We were in
doubt in Minnesota, the home of SG barely who was in the choir. She [recording cuts off]
RG 21.4.1969.07.31.a Mortensen (3 of 4).wav
Page 18 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:07PM
64:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
student, people, augsburg, augsburg college, women, college, years, pastors, personnel, felt,
minnesota, christensen, dean, taught, lived, church, asked, group, ideas, met
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
G... Show more
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Tue, 07/30 02:07PM
64:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
student, people, augsburg, augsburg college, women, college, years, pastors, personnel, felt,
minnesota, christensen, dean, taught, lived, church, asked, group, ideas, met
SPEAKERS
Gerda Mortensen
G
Gerda Mortensen 01:24
Today we have something that we call student personnel services in the colleges and in
many other areas of business to your personnel departments. But the ordinary idea of
student personnel deals with everything from recruitment students to admissions to
registration to curriculum construction to orientation, health services faculty cancer
student counselors, housing, food service, Student Government, student activities, religious
life, vocational counseling, curriculum development, follow up alumni alumni records,
recommendations, discipline, and a few other areas. Whenever I first get to become
acquainted with some of all this as I said, I tended to Columbia University in the summer
session and 1924 after I had been Dina women for one year dogs and Miss hirable it St.
Olaf had recommended that I go she had had some wonderful work with one Romy at
Stevens who had started this work around 1910 1214 when she had been there for a
master's degree work. When I came this work was headed up by Dr. Sarah Stewart, whom I
became very fond of, and who helped me a great deal and that summer, she had a
beginning course the advanced course for people who were advisors to women and girls,
both college university and high school people. I told you my predicament I needed to
learn as much as I could in a shorter time as possible. could I possibly take the two
courses concurrently. Then I also wanted to take a course and institutional management
which would be something about how to take care of dormitories how to build them,
because one of the things that he said to me, wherever you go, be sure that you watch for
all the dormitory someday you will have a chance to plan something for Augsburg, so
keep notes in your mind and go take a look at dormitories wherever you can.
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 1 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 03:39
That course was taught by Minnesota's Dean of Women, Dudley Blitz, whom I
subsequently get to know very well as she was a leader of our Minnesota Deans of
Women's Association for many many years. I also wanted to course in one other
thing...what was ithis? Vocational guidance. I think it was an education that women I was
also required to take a course in history. So here I started out in the beginning with all of
these different ideas. At Columbia University, I first came in contact with many people of
other races and other nationalities and other backgrounds. I had come out of a very close
circuited Lutheran Midwest group, although I had been in Mankato State, is it's called now
for two years met a number of people who are non-Lutheran, certainly at the University of
Minnesota when I finished my two years of undergraduate work. I had many friends from
many different kinds of circles. And still I was very limited in my outlook. I had a brother
who'd gone to China as a missionary and I had a great deal of interest in the people from
among whom he was working. among people that I met at Columbia that summer. Were
Mr. Mrs. Kohlberg, who had had one term is missionaries in China. They introduced me to
the so called indemnity students. It took me along to some of the meetings of the Chinese
as they were trying to understand the things they could do something so that they could, I
could understand a little bit more some of the problems that they'd had. And we're
having, and but it introduced me to a group of people among whom I could find some
friends and get away from some of the strangeness, that lack of contact with the
nationality group would mean. Among the women, the in studying that summer, we're
also two very lovely Negro women from Washington DC. One was the Dean of women at
Howard University, the other Edina women from one to the high schools. And these two
women were very fine people, they were always little reticent in class, they always waited
until the white people instead they had to go into a classroom and whatnot. But we tried
to treat them just as equals and as friends.
G
Gerda Mortensen 06:23
The year after I had been finished at Columbia University in 1929, we had a national
convention in Cleveland. I was asked by Anna Rose Hawks, who was at a rose at that time
from Washington University, who later married Dean Hawks from Columbia and recently,
but Anna Rose asked if I'd be willing to be one of the people who'd be hostess to this
Negro women. And we sat on a table just below the stage at the head table, because they
said we want to show all the things that we have a great deal of feeling of respect for and
want to recognize them fully as individuals. And so it was my happy privilege of being one
of 20 people sitting at that table between two Negro women. One of the sad comments
on these two Negro beautiful Negro Deans was they were injured some years later in a
car accident in Kentucky or wherever it was. And they were taken to a hospital. They
refused to admit them because they were negros. And both of them died before they got
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 2 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
to a hospital was willing to take them. This kind of prejudice, this kind of discrimination is
something that is simply bring very deeply in hurt a great deal. I was asked a year later to
sit with Margaret Doty from Macalester in Atlantic City. And we brought some Negro
women and among them was a very charming, beautiful young Negro woman who had a
deep rose pink dress on formal and wore a beautiful pink rose to match in her hair. And to
just the chairman and Dean. The last year that I was dean of women before my retirement
in '64, I was hosted at a table in Portland, Oregon. And I asked the people at my table
would you like me God and bring a couple Negro deans and to sit with us? They said yes,
please do. And I saw these two, one taller one, one in one shorter went out in the hallway,
invited them a new place to sit? No, we haven't. I said want to please come and be guests
at our table. And they sat down and the shorter one sat next to me and I looked at her.
And across the years all at one Division I said were you at Atlantic City? And did you wear
a beautiful pink satin dress formal and wear rose in your hair? "Yes!" she said "I did!" "Well, I
sat at that table with you and met you then." So here we were, conversing over a lifetime
of experiences, from 1929 to 1964. Both of us having grown rich in experience over all
those years naturally.
G
Gerda Mortensen 09:01
But it was these opportunities to meet people and to be with others. It was also my first
contact with Puerto Rican people. I took a class in the philosophy of education from
William Hurt Kilpatrick, who was, to my thinking, the strongest and most wonderful
teacher at Columbia University was in philosophy, education. He had worked out of
workbook. We were something like 200 people in the class, and how can you have
personalized instruction with 200 people? But Dr. William Howard Kirkpatrick had worked
out a workbook on topics with questions. And we were divided into groups of 10 each, we
should meet, do our own reading, meet and discuss all these things and come with a
chairman from our group to report to the committee's or what we had found out. And so
William heard Kilpatrick always the Blackboard, back of a minute piece of chalk in his
hand, stood there tall, lean caches like figure and with sparkling eyes and would ask
questions here and there. And each group then reported, this took about 30 minutes of
the period. And then he would allow questions from one section to another. And
oftentimes there were questions. And I remember some of the most searching questions
were made by Puerto Ricans who were studying at Columbia. But he was very kind and
gentle with everyone and let them ask their questions. And then after about 10 minutes of
that, he would say, turn to the blackboard and draw a line from one point to another. And
he said, Now, this is what seems to me that you have said so far. And he would summarize
what the class had reported. And then notebooks all got out, and pencils got busy,
because he said, Now this is what it seems to me. And in about eight minutes of summary,
he pointed out upon the things that he felt were most significant in that lesson. And then
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 3 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
we went on to the next session. But this was a whole term of this kind of studying and
teaching. I subsequently use that in the adaptation when I taught marriage and family
relationships. I had 60 students living sitting down at that one arm economics room, and I
put them at a router table. And here we had eight tables, and everyone could do their
discussing. So we had some of the same kind of thing. But this was a very exciting thing. A
wonderful teacher. And other people at Columbia that time that were much talkback was
Sunday, was William Bagley was Thomas Dewey was.
G
Gerda Mortensen 11:57
But some of the students get so excited about these. And one of the women who was
teaching in the elementary school for graduate students center children, said, Come to
the window and listen. And so we went to the window and listened. And here's the
children are crawling out on the on the playground. And they said turn back, you can't do
that to me or kill Patrick, come here, I'll punch you in the notes that were your bag. Now as
far apart as it could be, would be Thomas Dewey, and, and William Bagley and Kilpatrick.
But they oftentimes said, we had a wonderful day together. We discussed all day, we
didn't agree on a single thing, but we had a wonderful time together. It was a period of
very great enrichment. And Nicholas Murray Butler's president of Columbia at that time,
also did a good deal of talking whereas students had a chance to meet him. So these
were some of the kind of delightful things. The courses that I took in guidance and
personnel required us to do a lot of fieldwork and go visit all kinds of institutions and visit
colleges and universities in dormitories and slum areas and in churches and social work
centers and all this kind of thing. And in addition, I just, you know, hated to have any day
go by without some extra things. So I was always going to concerts or lectures, or listen to
different preachers. One Sunday go to St. John's a divine right near the edge of the
campus to hear some world famous pastor or I'd go down here Hugh black and the Fifth
Avenue Presbyterian Church. All right, go to that majestic Cathedral St. Patrick's never
having attended a Catholic service before I went to mass. And then I would go over once
a month or once in six weeks over to Brooklyn to my friends after dolls and pastor
segment at this Trinity Church in Brooklyn. But I always felt this is my opportunity to sort
of stretch my wings and get something else overpaid, fabulous, some for some Grand
Opera ticket to the Chris Olson, who was student pastor and I could go to hear Carmen
was Kirsten flagstick singing the role of Carmen. She was kind of a big Carmen, but over
the singing was just superlative.
G
Gerda Mortensen 14:22
The second time I went to Columbia in Jan February to 1928. I asked to live in Johnson
Hall. Eliza Reese Butler's sister, Nicholas Murray was the head and Margaret doty from
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 4 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
McAllister college had had a year sabbatical the year before and had lived there. And she
said, Eliza, resist a everybody called her allies to resist very flattered if demons or women
want to come and live in her hall to see how it operated and run. So I came and filled in
the blank of the interests and whatnot. And the very next day here was a little note from
her inviting me to be her guests at dinner and afterwards at the opera, know at Carnegie
Hall. Somebody she explained a dinner that evening. And she had selected eight different
people to be her guests and go with us that somebody had died and her season tickets
for Connect Carnegie Hall had been given to the president and he sent them over to her
and said you could make use of them take somebody and treat them to these concerts.
So here we sat in this box. I didn't think I had a coat smart enough to go to Grand Opera
in and furthermore, I was anticipating buying out of season coat at one of the New York
stores so I got down to one and maker's Wade found a beautiful gray soft gray with a
gray squirrel trim line in grey squirrel. It had been $150 code and I got for $50 and I wore
that over little eating dress that I had made for myself. And I just sort of felt the elegance
and effort situation. And we sat in the box and several people came in bout wave to
advisories Butler and she had these men come in there you know dress uniform dress, and
came over to be presented. Two weeks later, I wanted to hear a wonderful concert and I
didn't have the money to buy a good ticket. So I bought standing room only and stood
through a coveted subsequently during the year I heard some very excellent, wonderful
music there is passionate music according to St. Matthew, At Easter time, I heard several
other concerts during the year but always tried to buy tickets far enough in advance to be
able to do things without costing too much.
G
Gerda Mortensen 16:54
But here was the richness of the New York Philharmonic playing off at the loose on
stadium. You could buy tickets and evening for 25 cents just sat way on the edges. So
during a hot hot summer, we would get on a sightseeing bus, Fifth Avenue bus no go down
Fifth Avenue back again out to the loose on stadium. Listen to concert two hours come
home at 1030. And then study until 3456 in the morning, this was all right. One was young
and on could do all of those things. And but these are some of the things that I hope gave
me a little bit of a scope and a little bit of a point of view as to some of the kinds of things
that one man, one man thought in terms of culture, and what one did to give to a group of
students again, I went to the art galleries, I went to some of the drama. I remember going
to hear Eva seeing Eva galleon play in her Repertory Theater where she wanted to have
good theater brought to the poor people. I saw Walter Hamptons in playing the man with
a big nose, Sudan Oh, yes. And play also that was a Persian, Tilden. It looked like pictures
on the prison picture. And they were in uniform and dressed like that. But all these things
just added a great deal of enrichment to my life. Read this very group and Martha Blegen
came through on their way to Europe. And I thought it's the end of the session when I had
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 5 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
been there for six months. I think that I had spent more than they had spent going to
Europe, but I had also getting some of the things that I needed very desperately for my
own profession. One of the things that I was asked to do is summary term paper in my
course was to list a 10 or 15 or 20 year program for my institution as to what I was able to
think that we should be able to accomplish.
G
Gerda Mortensen 18:59
For instance, in the field of health, what could we do, we could work toward we had a low
infirmary and Mrs. Mrs. Jested, a retired, widowed missionaries wife, with four children was
living in a house and the campus was a Kosovo upstairs. And if any of the boys got sick,
She'd better make a bowl of soup and take over to them. Anybody got a girl, she'd have
to wait until she built a fire in this coal stove and they got to be warm enough in order to
move the people over there. This is all we had a line of health service. We had a couple
doctors who were friends box bridge doctor I received and Dr. CM on and if any expert
people became a all the they went to one or the other those and they charged them, I
think just the nominal fee. I know that that Dr receive it and did surgery for my brother
Ralph. And I think at that time, the old Medical Society still was an operation. And Ralph
was allowed some 15 $20 or something for this, how they managed to get through and do
some of these things, I don't know. But I had to talk with my teacher and counselor and
explained how we had a deaconess hospital it was affiliated with our same church group.
And so we worked out I worked out a kind of a program where we could start in by trying
to get a student who is a graduate nurse who wanted to study at the college to do
something about a volunteer business of helping take care of the sick. And when Mrs.
turbid came to be how smother and one of the dormitories, we were able to persuade the
authorities to move the health service over into main, which had steam heat that time.
Incidentally, steam heat came to the buildings at Augsburg during the time that my
brother Ralph was a student there. And he and other students went out that summer to
gather money in the congregation for Vermont opera out to heating pad for Augsburg
College.
G
Gerda Mortensen 21:15
And so it was in prior This was around 1914-15. I think that they installed heating plant up
to that time they had had wooden--still be airtight stoves. And so the boarding club fee
included dollar and a quarter or a year or something for cordwood to all the men had to
go on chop their own would carry pump their own water from the Wellness Center and
take up to their rooms. And there was of course a great lack of skill as far as household
housekeeping was concerned among the students. Well to change some of this and then
ultimately to have some kind of an affiliation with a with a doctor who would dispense
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 6 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
certain number of hours on the campus, until finally we could set up a little health office
on the campus. Until finally we could have a whole health department in a hospital as we
do at Fairview hospital now. But when I moved from my old office in Martin Hall over to
the office in science Hall when that was built, I found that that copy of that paper, I didn't
have sense enough to save it. But I read through it. And I saw the steps that had been
taken and had been accomplished in all of those major areas that I thought were needed.
The least the slowest, was a matter of housing for women. But for the things which could
be done. Many of these things had been done that I had taught through these areas as
part of my study that particular time at Columbia.
G
Gerda Mortensen 23:07
Besides attending Columbia University, we're getting these ideas and trying to put those
into practice in our work at Augsburg came after a while to discuss with the president
then Dr. Christensen the idea of setting up something cogs to the personnel services at
Augsburg. So we set up a committee was Adolph of Paulson and Erling Urdahl. And I think,
man in education, I wonder if that was when Mr. Hansen was there, and myself. And we
should devolve some kind of a plan and a program for this to present to the faculty. And
as a result of our studying and talking together, we recommended fully that we should
adopt a student personnel program and set up our college on this kind of a basis. The next
day, it was presented to the faculty and it was passed. And later on that day, I met Dr.
Christensen. And he said, I hear you voted yourself out of a job yesterday. I said I did. Yes.
He said you decided to have student personnel work at Augsburg now. Was don't you
intend to have women's students at Oxbridge anymore? Will Yes, but if you have student
personnel program, then you have a man that the head of this and then you won't need
any one else. Well, this showed how terrible little understanding it was of all the things
that are involved in the student personnel program.
G
Gerda Mortensen 24:54
And later when they had built Gerda Mortensen and Hall and added this to the Sivertson
the then data Christensen one miracle and be the head residence here, I said, "Is this is
what you want me to be?" The 'Head REsident,' You don't want to be a Dean of Women
anymore?" "Well, you can be both." "No," I said. "I can't be both. Because they're just too
many things to do. And if the preference is mine, I will say the Den of Women." And then
we can have this others some auxiliary. Well. So it was always a matter of trying to, to
teach without too much success. Just what was involved because when I give all ones
time, 24 hours a day, I had lived in the Morton hall for 16 years. So I lived and worked with
those people. And my parents retired and I had to move down to Minneapolis, and I
needed to live with them and help take care of them. And of course, this started 19 years
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 7 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
from then, with the loss of my parents and my two sister in law, and six children to look
after. And do some advising for my brother's children who went back to China and my
other brother, who never remarried and whom I helped Harold whom I helped was
bringing up his family and taken care of. But these were days that were that were full of
work. And full gross, because we were going as an institution, we were going as far as
numbers were concerned. And again, and again, I felt the great great need to entrust
much more of the local leadership to the students, and in student government and student
activities. And with all of these things, I gave him as much responsibility to students as
they will do much privileges they will be willing to assume responsibility for. I remember
when they started the National Student Association, Vernon 10th. And it was done by
President that they met to organize it were in Madison, Wisconsin, they showed me this
note that he got an inviting somebody to come to this meeting. So by all means just go go
and be a part of it. And bring back all the kinds of questions and all the kind of problems
that students see around. After a while it had little pink tinge. But they get rid of some of
the pink tinge in the National Association. But the students were always championing for
student responsibility, student privilege, student participation, and to the extent to which
we were able to give this and students who are elected Student Government subsequent
years always said when they came back from the National Student Association, we
discovered that the students at Augsburg have far more opportunity to participate in
everything, decision planning and all this sort of thing that any of the other institutions, I
can remember when they said they came back and they college St. Thomas students, all
they could do is plan dances Saturday nights, this was all they could do.
G
Gerda Mortensen 28:11
Well, they just felt that there were much more and I think this was one of the reasons
probably that students had his happier time taking care of their own affairs as they did in
the years when we had very little money to do things with in when they were rather
unsophisticated group of students. But at the same time, they had a very happy, rich time
doing it. I also went to national conventions I started in by going to our national women
Dean's and concerts convention in Boston, the year that I was at Columbia University in
February 1928. Among the people that I had met in the fall of that year at Minnesota
Education Association meeting was a sister Anthony man, who is president of the New St.
College of St. Catherine. And then lo and behold, I met her at this national convention,
and Didn't she say, Hello, Gary Martin's now are you. And I almost fell over because I
thought here, this woman knows who I am and speaks my name. And I thought that
please me. And I decided I was going to try to always do that as far as possible. If it gave
me some pleasure, could also do that for others. In Boston, I walked around and saw the
place where history had been made. But going out to Wellesley College, I sat with a very
charming woman who was a dean at one of the well established Eastern colleges. Her
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 8 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
name was Agnes something that I can't remember the last name now, but she just talked
to me, because I was just a child among deans and those days, I was considered a rarity,
because nobody, but nobody could possibly start being Indian women until they were at
least 35 years of age, most of the women were in their 50s and 60s. And so I was just in
their child. But she talked to me about problems about some of the things. And again, she
said, the great thing, I think, is it, you are going to make this students feel that you have a
real genuine and a warm concern for you, I can still see us riding out in the bus together, I
had that grace coat with this girl craving, and a beautiful, pale blue hat that I bought for
spring in going out there and then at Wellesley in that chapel, and I had read the life of
Alice Freeman Palmer, written by her husband, who had been president there. And this
had also been an inspiration to me, as to how I should do and work with students. And at
this chapel, there is a beautiful statue by a woman dressed in Grecian robes, and a young
girl who stands holding the lab of knowledge. And the older woman puts her hand on the
shoulder of the one, and with the other hand, points the way. And she said, This is what a
teacher and a student is, I just walked away a little further than you but together, we are
still searching for truth. And I have just loved that idea. So this is another one of the ideas
that I kept, I had just lived a little longer than some of my students. When I first came, I
hadn't lived as long as some of them had. But after a while that changed to. So going to
national conventions, always trying to find out what the new ideas were trying to adapt
them and coming back with any new ideas that I could go into state meetings in
Minnesota as part of the student personnel services and served in various capacities and
creating chair one year of that, and for our state deans of women, I did everything from
being historian to Secretary to Vice President to President. And when I retired in 1964, the
state convention was dedicated to a program honoring me and this was tape recorded.
And we had many people who were there. And Dr. Taylor Haganah, University of
Minnesota, head of the counseling Bureau and Dr. Marcia Edwards. And Dr. Male, Mabel
McCullough, who's now assistant dean of students, they had worked out a program. And
Sarah hag, and I had worked out a new testing scale, to test the effectiveness of a Dena
women based on my life and work and activity dogs.
G
Gerda Mortensen 33:00
And I have a transcription of this that I will put into the folder so that this is there. But it
moved me very, very deeply. And just think that these people who were such highly
professional people would have that kind of a feeling about the life and work of what we
had done. But they always had the respect for Augsburg College from some of us who had
been over there and felt we were searching for the right way to do things and then willing
to experiment and always sending somebody over to get new ideas. What else did I do?
Later, we established the American student personnel Association, a PGA and several of
these conventions, I went to both of those, again, to garner ideas, this was lots of research.
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 9 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
And I wasn't really able to do research. But other people research I could make use of as
far as taking some ideas. I suppose one of the greatest things that we tried to do is to try
to orient college students to come college. Now in the summer 1968, we've had a course
called transition to college, which is really the whole old idea of trying to train students to
be ready to do college work. It wasn't an intellectual orientation that to Christensen, it
taught that orientation to the world and knowledge in Marion Lindemann had also taught
that course. And I think you're taught that course, when you're doing to me. He taught the
science and you talked to where literature, bird's eye view of literature, and of and
astrophysics, and this whole field of science. And then when I was asked to do this, it was
to take this practical thing is to teach people how to use their time and study habits and
how to read and how to take notes and how to budget their time and how to plan to get
their work done, and how to take time for being employed, and still be able to get on
things in the need to do otherwise. I think this is about enough on this particular subject to
this point. I'm going to come back to this a little bit later, in some of the steps of life, which
we took as far as developing the idea of discipline, education that women the change of
records and all that sort of thing. In the summer of 1946, I went to attend the workshop in
higher education to University Minnesota, asked by the faculty to study the whole field of
student personnel services.
G
Gerda Mortensen 35:40
At this workshop, I became acquainted with Dr. Gilbert Rin, of the University of Minnesota
and Dr. Dugan, both of whom were very, very influential in the system, me and the general
thinking of the development of student personnel, and what kind of groundwork there
should be done. In order to build this better at Oxbridge. We had already participated in a
statewide testing program under the direction of Dr. Ralph birdie, who still is at the
University of Minnesota continuing his work. Subsequently, I learned to know Dr. seta
hagner and Dr. Marcia Edwards, Dr. Mabel McCulloch. Dr. May will powers a number of
others in this field. But out of this one summer session 1946 and again in 1947, we evolved
the general pattern for a program for student personnel work at Augsburg College. We
were being studied for accreditation within our central Association, and we needed to
have a good organization. Yeah, I also went in 1947 and suggested to Dr. Christensen that
Mr. Dolan, who was then had been made the dean of students to set up a good, tentative
program to follow for student personal well at work at Augsburg College. In the summers
of 52 and 53, I was a part of a workshop in family life education under the leadership of Dr.
Reuben Hill. I also took a seminar course, when it came to Minnesota, dealing with the
teaching of the subject of marriage and family relationships, which I had been asked to do
at Augsburg many years before and which I did for something like 30 years.
Gerda Mortensen 37:38
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 10 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 37:38
As a result of this workshop and student personnel, I also took courses at the University of
Minnesota in the fall and spring of 46 and 47. And 4748. great deal of this work with Dr.
Gilbert when, in 1964 National APG convention, Dr. Ran was given one of the great awards
for Distinguished Service in the field is to the personnel. I congratulated him and he in turn
turned around to congratulate me and he said, Gerda we really laid the foundation you
would Augsburg and I at the University of Minnesota for some very effective student
personnel work. I've always cherished the memory of that. Dr. Christensen went to Europe
in the spring of which year was this? And at that time, Mr. Martin Coinbase, Dean of the
College was asked to take on the work of Venus students. And Mr. K. Brunner down who
had been this Dean of Students for a number of years, just returned to the English
department as a full time English teacher. During that time, it was very imperative that we
find somebody who could hit up student personnel. I asked a number of people for
suggestions. And one day Dr. Quanbeck called me and said, I think that I had just the right
man that we should have for student personnel work at Augsburg College. He's a very
young man, but he comes very highly, highly recommended a Doctor Willis Dugan at the
University of Minnesota said there is just no better candidate. I had asked Dr. Dugan also
as I had met him in Philadelphia at convention, whom he would like to recommend to us.
And he again had mentioned Mr. Peter HR cost. Peter arm cost at this time was 23 years
of age, graduated Denison University. And in graduate school in the field of psychology,
university, Minnesota, he came over to talk with us he was young, it is true. And I thought
to myself, Oh, Martin Quanbeck, you can't do this to me, asking me to take a man 23-24
years of age, to be the Dean of Students. I look forward someday to having as a dean of
students, somebody whom I could really trust somebody who could take the lead. And I
had to be very, very sure that this was the right man. So we did some talking that one day,
and I told that to Cristen--, Dr. Quantic, that I just felt very, very greatly that I wanted to
go over and have a talk with Dr. Ren, about this young man. So I made the appointment
went over to talk with him.
G
Gerda Mortensen 40:23
And he told me to that he is the kind of person that can go ahead and do the kinds of
things that need doing it on spring, you've laid the foundation, many of our students in
graduate school have been over to talk with you about the kind of work that you've been
doing, the kinds of ideas that you have. And now I think for your running mate, if you could
do something like this, and accept this young man as this, let him take the lead. And then
he turned to me said if you take him, how are you going to treat him? I said, Well, I've
looked for somebody to actually take the lead, who's to whom I could share wisdom or
insight that I've gained over the years. Well, they said you take him if you don't, I will. And
I knew that that you ran always selected the outstanding student to be his student
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 11 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
assistant. So I felt All right. Let's take Peter, I'm a cost. I went back to Dean Quanbeck and
said, I agreed that we should offer this to Peter armor cost. The next day on the way over
to a state convention over at Bethel College in St. Paul. I stopped over in Dinkytown and
had to pick up some materials at the prions bookstore, and who should come walk over
the bridge But Peter arm cast and looked up and said hello. Hello. Have you had a word
from Dr. Quanbeck? He said yes, I just had the letter. So I said, Well, welcome colleague,
Welcome to Augsburg College, and he took my hand and shook it. Subsequently, he wrote
me a little letter and said yesterday when I met you, you called me colleague, I appreciate
that. You with your wisdom and experience and I was my creativity and vigor should make
a great team. Because what is the university is quite head has said, but the combined
wisdom of the experienced in the enthusiastic work of the young person. So Peter, I'm a
cos came to Augsburg in that fall, and we had a great great time together, took an
analyzed every phase and every aspect gives to the personnel work from A to Z. We
talked over.
G
Gerda Mortensen 42:37
Why did I think it's I thought why did I had I arrived at this particular point of view, why
this why that. And in the files of student personnel office, there will be a record of his study
after we had all done all the discussing an issue then he would take the books, and he
would formulate these are the statements that we want to live by the as the guidelines
that will want to establish, and then we would take them to student Personnel Committee
and discuss them pro and con in that committee. And then they arrive at a program of
activity which we should follow. This we did with every aspect of student personnel work
admissions, registration, orientation, health service, faculty, Counselor, student counselors,
housing, food service, Student Government, student activities, religious life, vocational
counseling, curriculum development, records, the idea of discipline, the idea of education
for special services, all these things we took under consideration and set up in the course
of two years, a program involving many of these things. This is the beginning of student
personnel at Augsburg College. Peter, I'm a cost left Augsburg to go to Washington DC
with the American College Association. Two years ago, three years ago, he summarized
the work which he had done in student personnel at Augsburg College, and a copy of this
report is on file with these papers.
G
Gerda Mortensen 44:29
Where did the students come from? In those first years at Augsburg, I suppose nearly all of
them were those who preach church, congregation members coming from small towns
and from rural communities. There were a few women and there were a few men. In the
Academy, we still had many men who were over age, who had lived in rural communities
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 12 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
and who's it education had been delayed. The only people in the academy who lived in
the city were generally the children of the professors at Augsburg and one or two others
that that came in. But by and large, that Academy was made up of that strange cross
section of older men, some immigrants, and over age people, and then the regular run of
the college people. We also at that time had a shortage of pastors. And the standards of
seminary were not as high. And many men came and they became the confessing
personal Christian, they thought they should go into the ministry. And many of the well
meaning pastors out in the community, they said, Oh, he's such a fine person should go to
school, and they should enter the ministry. So many of them couldn't finish college. But
they were accepted the seminary. And this was one of the very great difficulties is for is
building up a better seminary and accredited seminary concerned. This together was a
coming of the education and more women students led to a development over the years,
whereby you're trying to seek a better standard of college education. That is very deep
started this. It was carried on Bernard Christensen. And after that, we moved into the
present day era, and that we would come to a little bit later. And thinking about the
people that came one of the things that Dr. squared up asked me to do was to be social
hostess for the college. And as I'm remembering now, the faculty wives of that group of
people who were there when I came to speak, there was Mrs. George Virgil had been a
teacher. And she had felt that she had the whole social responsibility of the college.
G
Gerda Mortensen 46:59
Mrs. Andreas Helen, the third was a sweet dear little lady who took care of her family.
There was Mrs. Large Lola who had not been well, there is Mrs. EP Harpo who was worn
out after having your raise that rear big family and who was in very poor health. Mrs.
Busby a never did see. Mrs. Hendrickson is a chronic invalid. Mrs. Fagan was an artist to
the temperamental temperament of an artist Mrs. RB nail I don't know what that I ever
really met her. We did have a few women at Augsburg who had been asked to come in to
teach when I came. So there was an artist out teaching mathematics. Her brother Mars
had taught the year before and was there for one or two years only before she married
Henry Munger. There was a bell me who's who'd come to teach panel, who was a very
ambitious person socially, professionally, and had a great deal of influence on what Mrs.
George Virginia thought, anyway. And then there was Jenny's girls for who was there
warmth and friendliness. And her teaching voice had been on the faculty for years. So
there was an Emma quarter who taught violin, there had been a sort of a smattering of a
an orchestra earlier. Directed by that to Pietri. a dentist, son of the pastor who had been
on the Pioneer pastors of August and others in church, there was Harry Anderson
teaching, directing the band and the choir the Glee Club. And upon his death within Mr.
upsets came. Yes, it was banned. In 1922, there was banned in the head, the uniforms,
there had been a little Joseph traveled around, that my father always had any Augsburg
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 13 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
group come to these congregations. And when we were out near Montevideo, there was
an artist to that traveled around. This was about when Ralph played a trumpet in the
orchestra.
G
Gerda Mortensen 49:18
There was six tickets at traveled around the record hits. And then there was a Glee Club.
So there are always people out on tours, Professor Hendrickson reading, directing some of
the clubs, and later Harry Anderson coming on to do this. But then came Mr. upset the
beginning of the start of a really music department at Augsburg College. But when I take
a look in my mind, and think about this group of women, there was Mrs. nightgown couple
of other women who were able to help. But at that time, the customer had developed over
the years that the faculty wives gave a dinner went to Europe, the students at Augsburg,
and the students responded by having a dinner party once a year for the family. That was
the extent of the social activity. When Bell Mae was arrived. The year before I came to
orgs brick as a teacher, I was a student at the University and I was invited as a member of
Trinity Lutheran Church to come to this open house, which nobody ever heard about it
before. But what is now Old Main and the second floor had a big wide hallway. And there
were three rooms inside off from this. In each one of those, it was a tea table appointed
and everybody had borrowed some server service and some dishes from someplace. So
you had these beautiful places set up. And they are may whose was supervising make
you're making a paper 10 sandwiches when the girl said, I've never know my life, better
the bread before I sliced it up from the loaf. But this is one of the things that we did. And
so you had the beginning of something like this, whether social hostess at the college
really acted a little bit like a public relations person. Anybody who came to the campus to
be a guest, one of the things I had to do is to present at the dining hall, seven o'clock for
breakfast, 12 or 1215 for lunch, and six o'clock for dinner. The doors locked five minutes
after the bell was wrong. There was no electric bill, one of the theologians trusted
theologian, had the privilege of walking up see flights of stairs and ringing that bill, waking
people up at 630 in the morning and ringing 10 minutes of seven, and again at seven, and
then ring it for class for chapel for the meals. I don't know where they rang at 1030 at
night to put to bed or not, but like to supposed to be out at 1030. Two people came to the
campus. And among regular things that occurred at that time, there was always a pastor
summer school the last week in August. My father had been in charge of arrangements for
that when I was a little girl and we lived in Minneapolis and he knew something about it.
And when I came to Augsburg This was one of the ways in which doctor sort of asked me
to be sort of hostess of the college. And look after the welfare of all these pastors that
came presided the dining room and see to that things were done. The way the president
of the church at that time wanted them dead. And when that burnt it was president
church. He wanted this to be a very happy and formal kind of hour, or sometimes some
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 14 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
serious discussion, but really an opportunity for the pastors themselves to sort of relieve
themselves of some of the tensions and have a good and pleasant time together. While in
the lectures that were given, they were really given some real instructions as to how to
study and how to make creative use of their years work in the ministry.
G
Gerda Mortensen 53:04
A second thing that I had to do at this time practically every other year, the annual
meeting of the Lutheran Free Church occurred in Minneapolis. And then they were housed
at Augsburg and I needed to I was always appointed to committee to arrange for food
service to arrange for meeting places to arrange for Hospitality for guests and all of this.
Incidentally, at the pastor Summer Institute, where many guests Pete people came into
the state at Morton Hall because that is where I lived. And that was the best of the kind of
housing that we had for students. And I can remember one time that Dr. Mrs. bergendorff
he was n president at August and I came and we had a very wonderful time my father and
mother were there with me and Berkman Chris Olson. and passionate Miss Dr. Mrs.
bergendorff. We all those were sort of family affairs almost. Then the pastor's of the some
key church met once a month. So the first time that I personally I was at school, that rich
writer said we're going to meet at this I want to take you long. Whenever we go to these
pastors meetings, I want you to go along and once a year, I want you to entertain the
pastors it so the pastors and their wives King.
G
Gerda Mortensen 54:19
In those days, there were 40-50 people and I'd have to provide about two quarts cream
for the coffee. Before I was to serve as hostess for these half a pint of cream is sufficient
because the old generation dropped off. And they didn't need that much cream. They had
learned to they had learned to they had learned to drink black coffee. But then there were
the occasion. The first year I was atAugsburg. I went to MBA and Dr. Theodore Blegen and
at that time was president of the Alumni Association. And he had arranged for a
gathering of the various teachers who are graduates of Augsburg to have a luncheon
together at the Curtis Hotel. And they were there that day, some 20-30 of them. Then they
said, Well, why can't we have this meeting at Augsburg College when it come next year?
And so the year after that, well, this is the way homecoming get started at Augsburg. Then
I wanted to talk a little bit about the kind of ways in which we try to reach out into the
community. There were nurses that came to attend deaconess hospital School of Nursing,
Swedish and Fairview that came from some of our own Lutheran pre church
congregations. And they were all young men that were at Augsburg. And so for many
years, Trinity Church had a reception every fall, and which they invited Trinity and people
were hosts, to these young people who would come and this way we started felt they
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 15 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
could get acquainted with our church. And they could participate in either Sunday school
teachers are singing in the choir. And we had a very alive, young people's meeting at five
o'clock every Sunday afternoon. And at this time, they we had I had been elected
President of this young people society. And it was somehow the basis of say, Tell me said
Dr. Swear to that you have a good way with young people, and you can get them to do
things. And that church used to be packed Sunday evenings, but we had programs of one
kind another and I remember young man who was living it tonight, our home who played
violin beautiful, he later became a member of the Minneapolis Symphony. And I had him
play a group of Mozart music, violin numbers. And one of the oldest church fathers came
over to me afterwards, he said, wasn't that rather lively music to help the church.
G
Gerda Mortensen 56:48
But anyway, the students had lots of fun being signed to committees, to prepare the
luncheon and to serve it into worship the dishes afterwards. And then they went
downtown to some other church. And after a while, I discovered that there was one
church downtown that showed movies Sunday night, and this is where I went. I wasn't too
sure that that was a proper thing to do. Because there were those who felt that the movies
really were very ungodly. And they came from that awful place in California. And so
should we allow people to go to these or should we not? I remember one girl coming in
confessing the achievement there was a young man, and she wasn't at all sure that was
right. I said, Let your conscience be your guide. Well, there is some other people that
wanted to venture for us to that reminds me a one time a group came and said, we would
like to go to the Getty. We would like to not pay you go. But we would ask Clara Alex and
who was an older person who was completing a college degree work and teaching
commercial subject will ask Claire to go with us. And I had told the girls you can go and
anywhere you want to do anything you want to just tell me where you want to go. So that
I will always be able to say to people, they they told me they were going and I know where
they are. And I thought to myself, Oh, I don't want you girls to go there. But I thought you
get you have to find that out by yourself. So I said yes, you may go. So these people went
down and they walked into the gateway theater. They said they're less than five minutes.
And they felt so uncomfortable at the glances cast at them by the men that were in there,
that they just learned their lesson with great rapidity. And they gave riding home and they
told me all about it. No, no. It was this atmosphere that they sent out right away. Oh, I
know that there were students who wanted to go around and see everything. And this is
right. This is a time of life when you can certainly take a look around and see. But I was
always glad that I had sense enough to let them go and find this out for themselves. But I
wanted to come on to talk about some of the expanding horizons that the team to me we
were able to bring to this campus.
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 16 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
G
Gerda Mortensen 59:21
Many of them had never been on a train until they came on train to come to Minneapolis.
This was before automobile for very common. So they came on a train and they wrote
letters and tried to describe themselves and Selma story and wrote to either Peterson who
was to be her big sister and said I will arrive wearing a black coat in my head. And I
thought oh here is a very, very sophisticated looking woman that she went down the
station to meet Stewart and there Salma was absolutely a jewel in their in their rep and as
far as pastured carriage and many things. They didn't correspond with a sparkler the spirit
of that well, but they still don't To this day, but she is really a Jew of a person.
G
Gerda Mortensen 60:27
Where was I just expanding horizons? Yes. Well, I've been a dog sprig from 1923 summer
24. I went to Columbia, and the second semester 28. In the summer, I was at Columbia
again. And then in 1932, a friend of mine held again I would lie had a 10 weeks trip to
Europe. In the midst of the depression. She was going to go to earn degrees, some credits
for her degree at Morehead State. And she was my sister in law sister so we went out and
had the benefit of the year rival rates, cut rates for the Eucharist Congress was going to be
held in Dublin that year. So our round trip ticket for 10 weeks in Europe was trained fair
and with hotel accommodations with breakfast so loud, except for two weeks time when
we were visiting relatives in Norway came to something between six and $700 round trip
to New York. We saw Paris Fashion in Paris. But we bought some things in little shops in
Brooklyn that looked like the things that we had seen. So we came home wearing red
velvet team dresses and carrying little bags, and little velvet hats. But it gave us a bird's
eye view. And it gave me a bird's eye view of something of a cultures of the historic
background. I was a teacher of history. I saw his GS it had grown. I saw the castles and the
hills and the little villages that grew up around them. Lots of things that I had read about
and taught now I saw in Norway, I felt as if I had walked into my own historic past and
understood myself and my father and understood my college better. Because I had been
there in the land from which our forefathers, the kinds of things that they had built. I got to
see art galleries, I got to see music outlet to meet people in various kinds of new, firsthand
meeting of people. We were frightened when we picked up the newspaper in Stockholm
and saw that the first elections had been going on in Berlin, and a rising young Hitler had
gotten himself nominated for something in that health bra house in Munich. And we were
just frightened and asked, Is it safe to go to Germany and this kind of a situation at which
we will share the assets very safe to go. Somehow we were calmed a little bit when Dr.
Charlie Stangl on medicine station in Berlin. And we went to the hotel, and he assured us
it was perfectly safe to be there and travel. But historically, looking back, I just realized it
wasn't so safe. But all of these things were part of sort of expanding my horizon anyway.
And I came back with a desire to help our students expand their horizons more. Little bit. I
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 17 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
dream that two years later, I was going to have a chance to go out to teach in China, and
go to see the Far East. I had a brother Ralph, who had been a missionary since 1918. And
he had gone out again in 1900 2013. And wrote and applied for a school for me, and told
me that I had been elected that this place and would I please come and Dr. sweater said,
Oh, no, we can't let you go. But he sat there thinking thought about his own experience
eight years that he was teaching at American University in Beirut, Lebanon, and his work
in the Middle East. And he thought Oh, no, is it all subsequent reading? [the recording cuts
off]
RG 21.4.1969.07.30 Mortensen (2 of 4).wav
Page 18 of 18
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
Hi, I'm Chyanne Phravoraxay. I'm the oral historian for this oral history project.
I'm here with Fatha Ahmed, can you state your full name and your age?
Fatha Ahmed 0:12
Well, hello, my name is Fatha Ahmed and I'm nineteen years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:16
So, um,... Show more
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:00
Hi, I'm Chyanne Phravoraxay. I'm the oral historian for this oral history project.
I'm here with Fatha Ahmed, can you state your full name and your age?
Fatha Ahmed 0:12
Well, hello, my name is Fatha Ahmed and I'm nineteen years old.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:16
So, um, where were you born and raised?
Fatha Ahmed 0:20
So I was born here in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I was raised in St. Paul and mixture with
Roseville and Falcon Heights.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:28
Okay. And was that the same with your family like your parents and siblings or?
Fatha Ahmed 0:33
All my siblings were born here, I'm the oldest out of nine. So and my parents were born in
Somalia. So my dad was born in a city called us Lascaanod. And my mom was born in a city
called Jowher.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 0:47
Okay. And have they told you their story of immigrating here?
Fatha Ahmed 0:55
They briefly told me when I was, a couple years ago, actually, they both fled the civil war back in
1996 or 97. So my mom came 1998 and my dad came- no my mom came in 1999 and my dad
came a year before that. So 1988. And I was born 2000
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:16
And did they meet here?
Fatha Ahmed 1:18
They met here, yes. They met through mutual friends.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:22
And have you ever gone to Somalia?
Fatha Ahmed 1:25
No, I was going to go last summer, but instead I went to Kenya.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:29
Okay, so what brought you to Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 1:31
My mom wanted to move there with my 5 younger siblings. So she wanted to like, have a better
life over there like she did with my younger siblings.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:42
So then do they live there now?
Fatha Ahmed 1:43
They do. Yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:45
How long have they lived there?
Fatha Ahmed 1:47
It's been like six months now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 1:50
So how was your experience there?
Fatha Ahmed 1:52
It was different. The culture there is pretty different. But overall it was like a nice experience to
see a whole different side of the world.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:04
So how was it different?
Fatha Ahmed 2:07
I'll just say like, culturally, they were- I mean, there was different like things like, what was it?
How they like view things differently. Like the president and like how like the laws over there,
just different than here.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:26
Can you give more details?
Fatha Ahmed 2:29
I mean, the laws over there really- like when I went there, like, you don't have to drive with the
license, which was interesting. Actually. You don't- there's no drinking age. There's no, like, stuff
like that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:45
Wow. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 2:46
I know. Yeah. It was really, I mean, it was interesting, but wow.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 2:50
So do a lot of Somalis live in Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 2:53
There was only- Well, it's mostly Christians. Not Somalis, but there's like fairly good amount
because Kenya is a Christian country.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:03
Oh, yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 3:04
But there's mostly Yeah, there's mostly Christians are like, not that much Somalis from what I
see.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:10
Okay. Are you fluent in Swahili?
Fatha Ahmed 3:15
No. I literally know, like a couple words and that's it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:18
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 3:19
I know Somali fluently but not Swahili.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:22
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 3:23
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:23
So then did you speak Somali there then? Everyone knew Somali or?
Fatha Ahmed 3:28
Um, they knew English
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:30
Oh, okay. So you just spoke English?
Fatha Ahmed 3:31
Yeah, because if it was just Swahili then it would be complicated. But yeah, they mostly speak
English and Swahili over there.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:39
Okay. And then how did you learn a little bit of Swahili then?
Fatha Ahmed 3:43
From like meeting different people. Like I know like words. I understand it a little bit. But like
speaking it is just hard.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 3:52
So do you think there's like a drastic change or like difference between Swahili and Somali?
Fatha Ahmed 3:57
I mean there's- Well yeah, actually. Yeah, there is a lot different, because there's like different
meanings to like different stuff and they have different like words that mean the same thing as
Somali, but it doesn't totally mean it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:10
Okay. And um, so you were in Kenya during Eid right?
Fatha Ahmed 4:16
I was. Eid was in the summer so to like after Ramadan, there's an eid and then a month and a
half later there's an Eid so yeah. I celebrated to Eids in Kenya which was, I would say, like that
was like the most fun I like experienced, because they do more cultural stuff in Kenya than in
America, because in America you just go pray and like just go to like, fun stuff. But there like
you like, there's like food, there's dances, there's more like more stuff.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 4:48
Okay, so going back to what you said about your family. Do you think, do you see you and your
dad and the rest of your siblings possibly moving to Kenya?
Fatha Ahmed 4:57
My dad wants to move back home, but for me like it wasn't for me, but I would totally love to
visit. I don't know if it's just because I was born here, that's why it's different? But I don't want to
go over there. Just a vacation.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:13
Yeah? Moving on to your early education, so growing up in Minneapolis and like St. Paul area,
Twin Cities, do you feel like you were surrounded by Somali Muslims? Like did you always feel
comfortable?
Fatha Ahmed 5:29
So I went to a public school, kindergarten through senior year of high school. From when I
started kindergarten, there was literally no, like, people that looked like me. It was all like, white,
which was- it wasn't that bad at first, but when I got to like first second grade, like I started
getting questions about the hijab then, it's like it's been like, an ongoing thing like every year.
Like "why do I wear it?"
Chyanne Phravoraxay 5:56
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 5:56
Yeah, I mean, at first they didn't know. They're like- we were all young so they didn't have any
knowledge of like, what the hijab is and why i wear it. But after the years, like starting middle
school, high school, there was more people that like knew why I wore it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:15
Interesting. Okay, so then, um so you said that you were probably the only like, Somali there?
Fatha Ahmed 6:23
Yeah, just me and my one friend. That's it.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:25
Oh, okay. So then were there any like Muslims then? At your school either?
Fatha Ahmed 6:28
No, there wasn't. No, I mean there was black African Americans, but not like Somali Americans
or Muslim Americans.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:37
So do you remember when you first started wearing your hijab?
Fatha Ahmed 6:40
From the moment I started? Well, it was when I was five or six. Like when I started school.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:47
Oh, okay. Is that like, do you have sisters?
Fatha Ahmed 6:51
I have, yeah, three other sisters.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 6:52
Okay, so was that the case for them too? Like that age?
Fatha Ahmed 6:55
Yep. When we started school. Every time we go out, we would just wear the hijab. Like from
what I remember like when I started kindergarten, that's when I started wearing a hijab.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:02
Okay, so during like holidays, would you- How would that work? Did your school like
accommodate to that or it didn't follow it?
Fatha Ahmed 7:13
No, they wouldn't allow us to. At first when I was in elementary school they didn't allow us to get
days off, because it wasn't technically a holiday in like the calendar. So we just- I mean my dad
would like talk to the principal every year to like let them know like these specific like kids are
not gonna be able to come on this day, because they'll be celebrating like their holiday. Just like
how the others celebrate Christmas so there's days off, but for when it's Eid like we didn't have
any days off and like we had to like miss class, miss like assignments and everything. We were
behind. So that was pretty difficult for my parents too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 7:57
So then was that like throughout all your education?
Fatha Ahmed 8:01
Yes. Kindergarten through senior year.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:05
When did you feel like there were more Somalis or people of color?
Fatha Ahmed 8:10
Probably middle school. Because I don't know like there was- I started seeing more and more
Somalis in middle school. I thought I wouldn't, because it's still a public school but I did and
senior year was just still a lot of Somalis too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:28
Did you like befriend the Somalis or what was your friend dynamic like?
Fatha Ahmed 8:34
It was like a mixture. Like at first I was friends with mostly whites. And I started going off to like,
Mexican and then Somalis. Yeah, that's like, the culture that I would like to associate with.
Because there was no one else to actually talk to. When I got to like senior in middle school
year, that's when I started talking to more Somalis like people look like me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 8:58
Okay. And you did mention that, like, people would ask you a bunch of questions just because
they didn't know but have you ever experienced any like, intentionally negative interactions?
Like people saying rude things or?
Fatha Ahmed 9:14
So when I was in fifth grade this one boy asked, he asked what I had in my head. And I told him
like the Hijab like he asked why I wore it. I explained it to him and then he told me, I don't know
why he's like, he told me to like take my towel off
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:30
Really?
Fatha Ahmed 9:30
Yeah. He said, yeah he said a towel. Or like a tablecloth? I don't know. But it was, yeah. So he
told me take that off and then at first I thought it was just funny. But I started to realize like that
like hurt, so I didn't say anything. But I told my mom and she said, like, like "going to school, it's
going to be like different, difficult for you to like, adjust to wearing the hijab".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 9:54
And what does the hijab mean to you?
Fatha Ahmed 9:57
It means- to me it means to be modest and like, caring about like my religion and like, why I'm
here.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:04
So you think that you would wear it for probably the rest of your life then?
Fatha Ahmed 10:08
Yes, for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:09
Okay, interesting. And so moving into religious upbringing. Do you think, in your opinion, do you
think your family's more traditional or loose with Islam? Or, like compared toFatha Ahmed 10:22
What do you mean "loose with"?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:23
Loose as in, they're not as traditional or they don't follow as much.
Fatha Ahmed 10:28
Oh, yea. I would say my parents are traditional, they're really religious.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:31
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 10:32
I would say they're traditional
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:34
So in what way, like compared to other people that you've seen?
Fatha Ahmed 10:39
Like culturally speaking?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 10:42
Yeah, culturally too. Or like, culturally or religiously? I don't know, like, just the practices that
they- or practices and beliefs that they have, compared to other people who are more loose, like
have you noticed a difference or what makes you think that they're more traditional?
Fatha Ahmed 10:59
I would say just like celebrating cultures maybe like. I mean not cultures, but like something like
holidays like Ramadan. I would say like, because Ramadan is like the holy fast of the- We fast
for a month, so I would say that we do more things in that month and most other cultures to do.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:21
Okay. Interesting. So um, what do you mean by that like? Like are you more stricter on fasting?
Fatha Ahmed 11:28
Well yeah I mean at first when I started- I started fasting was like nine and then before that my
parents would not care. Like I didn't have to fast. But I started when I was nine years old like
we've had every day until like, you know when you get older like when you're not able to fast.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 11:51
So do you pray often?
Fatha Ahmed 11:53
Yes, we pray- I pray often, yes. We pray five times a day like one in the morning before sunrise
or during sunrise. And then there's one in the evening, one in that afternoon, one before- during
sundown, and then one later, later that night. So like different times of the day.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:17
Do you tend to follow with that five different times?
Fatha Ahmed 12:20
Yes. It's hard when you're at school, because it's like, you're in class when it's time to pray, but
like, if you're like, late, you have to do it before the next prayer. So, but not too late. But like
before next prayer you're okay.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 12:37
What do you do if you're on campus then? Do you go to like the areas we have?
Fatha Ahmed 12:43
Yes, in Hagfors there's a prayer room. So you just go in there, it's open to everyone. You just go
in there and pray and then on Fridays, there's weekly Friday prayer. So like, everyone goes and
like just reads like, specific like passages from the Quran or from the Hadith and then you just
pray and then yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:07
So how long is like the Friday prayer?
Fatha Ahmed 13:10
It usually lasts about 20 minutes. They have speakers sometimes. So yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:17
Is it during chapel hour? Or when do they have it?
Fatha Ahmed 13:19
Usually- It changed because of daylight savings. So it's usually around like 12:10 or 12:15
around there.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 13:30
Okay, how many people are usually there?
Fatha Ahmed 13:34
Um. I mean I would say like a good amount like maybe like 20 people. I mean, there's people
that like don't want to miss class, because I think it's between- that's during a class and like
almost after a class too, but it's pretty difficult for some people to get a class, because the
professor doesn't like want you to miss anything big or anything. But if you have time, if you can,
if you're able to, like it's encouraged to go to Friday prayer.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:01
So then have you always gone there like since- because you're a second year? Right?
Fatha Ahmed 14:05
Yeah, I am.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:06
So then, have you always gotten there since freshman year too? or when did you start going?
Fatha Ahmed 14:12
I started going maybe it's this year? The school year. Yes, I usually go, yeah, during my- one of
my classes I leave early and sometimes I don't, but sometimes, like if I have an exam, I usually
don't. But when I do, I usually go when I have time to go.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:30
So how does it make you feel or what drives you to go there?
Fatha Ahmed 14:34
Just like that God is watching me like, I'm doing this just for him.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 14:41
So, um, are you involved in anything in the Somali Muslim community or like on campus?
Fatha Ahmed 14:49
I have been involved with a couple of student organizations. MSA, which is Muslim Student
Association, and then PASU which has Pan African Student Union.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:01
Um, can you tell us your experiences and those two organizations?
Fatha Ahmed 15:06
For MSA, it's actually pretty nice this year, because they have weekly halaqas, which is like
weekly, like meetings like about different topics. Like I think couple weeks ago there was one
about marriage in Islam. So we talked about like, like, when is it appropriate to get married and
a strict like, like during school? Because some college students they get married, some college
Muslim students get married around this time. So like, just about that, like marriage and like, if
you're ready or not.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:40
Interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 15:40
And then for PASU, I haven't been involved with it this much this year, but I would say that it's
going okay, but I feel like I'm more connected with MSA than I am with PASU.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 15:57
And why do you think so? Is it just like the religion involved? Is that why?
Fatha Ahmed 16:01
I would say. Yeah, because PASU was mostly like for like black African Americans, which I am
but I don't feel like I'm connected to it, in some way. But I am with MSA.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 16:13
Interesting. Do you think or what is your favorite part about being a part of the Somali
community?
Fatha Ahmed 16:21
My favorite part? Of being a part of being in the Somali community. Um, well, just getting to, i
don't know, getting to meet like new people probably. To like different like, different like
religions, like at the Brian Coyle down- down Sixth Street right here. There's like many different
cultures that come in to like this community center. And I used to volunteer across the street.
The Cedar Riverside Learning Center, I think something like that. So what I would do is help
older people, who don't know- that in go to school when they're young to like learn English and
learn like
math and science and stuff.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:10
So you were like a tutor or?
Fatha Ahmed 17:12
Yes, I was. And learn- Oh yeah, they were learning the computer too. They have never seen a
computer before. So they're adjusting to that
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:20
That's cool! Yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 17:21
'Cause they sacrificed their lives for their kids so theyChyanne Phravoraxay 17:25
So then these were mostly immigrants then?
Fatha Ahmed 17:28
Yes, there are immigrants. All Somali immigrant from what I see.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:33
And so you stated the- your favorite thing about being a part of the Somali community? Is there
anything you'd like to change or like some issues that you feel should be addressed within the
community?
Fatha Ahmed 17:48
Within the Somali community or?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 17:49
Yeah, Somali.
Fatha Ahmed 17:51
Um, I mean, there was a lot of like, there are a lot of incidents about like guns in the Somali
community. About how all, like Somali men are like getting killed. And I feel like we should be
like more open minded with learning about like, what that can do to someone, especially the
Somali moms who like felt that they didn't like do a good job as a mother. So I would say like
being more open minded with that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:27
Interesting. So are you so you're talking about like shootings in Minneapolis or?
Fatha Ahmed 18:32
Yes, shootings in Minneapolis.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 18:35
Who do you think you look up to in like- as a Muslim woman?
Fatha Ahmed 18:41
As a Muslim,? I will look up, I would say my mother and my grandmother. They're like the two
most influence in my life, because my mother sacrificed her education for her kids. Same with
my grandmother was her mom. But for my mom, she didn't- she only got her high school
diploma and then she came here and she wanted to go back to school, but then she had me. So
i'm carrying on that legacy.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:07
So do you think you feel any pressure as the oldest woman in your family like out of your
siblings?
Fatha Ahmed 19:12
Oh, yeah, for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:13
Yeah?
Fatha Ahmed 19:13
My mom's always on me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:14
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 19:15
Yes. Like, as a first generation student. Like she always told everyone like, I go to school here,
do that. She's like, yeah, I mean, she wants me to do good, but yeah. Especially my, yeah, I
would say my mom especially like, she wants me to like, be focused on school and like, not
work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:37
Oh, really? She doesn't want you to work.
Fatha Ahmed 19:38
No.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:39
And do you work?
Fatha Ahmed 19:40
I do work. Of course I work. I can't be broke. But yeah, she just wants me to focus on like, like
my career like what I'm going for.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 19:51
And do you feel like you have pressure to take care of like your younger siblings as the oldest
too?
Fatha Ahmed 19:57
Um y eah, when did senior year, when she would work and my dad would work too. It was a
struggle like balancing school, work, and then them too. So but it was- I, we got through it. My
mom was- she was there for me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:13
So who were you looking after? Like, can you state your siblings? Like ages and names
maybe?
Fatha Ahmed 20:20
Like right now? Their age and their name?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:22
Oh, yeah. Just like, yeah.
Fatha Ahmed 20:24
Ok, so I'm 19, I'm the oldest. Then my sister is 17. Then I have a brother who's 16 and then
another brother, that's 15. And then I have another brother who's 13? I don't know, 13, maybe?
And then I have a sister who's 10 and another sister, that's seven. Yes, seven and then I have
two younger brothers that are twins and they just turned four.
Yeah, big family.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 20:51
Yes! So can you state which ones are currently in Kenya with your mom?
Fatha Ahmed 20:56
So the 13 year old and rest. The younger ones. They're 13, 10, 7, and the twins are with my
mom. So five of them are with my mom and then the four, the older ones, are here with my dad.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:08
Oh, okay. And so do you live with your dad at the moment?
Fatha Ahmed 21:11
Yep.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:12
And have you always lived with him?
Fatha Ahmed 21:15
Yep, both my parents. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:17
Is it in Minneapolis or St. Paul or?
Fatha Ahmed 21:19
St. Paul, yeah. I moved from, where did I move from? Falcon Heights. Because it was a three
bedroom apartment and my family kept growing every year. So I was like "it's tiem to get a
house".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 21:33
So moving on to like young adulthood or I guess right now, um, so can you state why you chose
Augsburg?
Fatha Ahmed 21:42
Why I chose Augsburg. I chose Augsburg for many reasons. For one, it was close to home,
because my dad was not letting me go out of state. The second reason was, it's a small school,
which means like smaller class sizes, which is like beneficial me, because if I went to the U, that
would be like 600 students in one class and I wouldn't have like that interaction with the
professor like I do with the ones here. And then I would say, like, diversity. There's a lot of
diversity here on campus, which is actually pretty nice because there's more involvement. And
then, yeah, financial aid.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 22:24
So when you were applying like in your senior year, did you already know this was your top
choice?
Fatha Ahmed 22:31
My- this was actually my third choice. Yes, so my first choice was the U of M. And then it was
St. Kate's, and then Augsburg. For the U of M, I don't know like I just wanted to go to school
because you know, everyone was going to that school. So I was like, you know, what is my
number one choice. But I didn't like, think like, what like, like, what aspects of what the U of M
has. Like the class sizes, like, getting to there, I would say. But- and then St. Kate's, I was going
to go there for my previous major, which was nursing. But then I realized, like, that's not what I
want to do anymore. And I just went to Augsburg, because it had all the components that I
wanted.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:15
So then did you have a major in mind coming in your first year?
Fatha Ahmed 23:20
Yes. When I- well before, well senior year, I was like, throughout high school, actually, I wanted
to be a nursing major. Like it was always nursing, nursing, nursing, nursing. When I got to
Augsburg, I was like, you know, I'm gonna do biology. And then I realized, I didn't want to do
that either. So I went from biology to business to then social work, 'cause I always liked helping
people. So I was like, nursing, doctor? Like, that'll be like, perfect. But then I'm like, that's not
what I wanted to do when I came to college. So I just decided to do social work, because that's
the same thing like helping people. So yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 23:57
And so have you you've taken a few courses that go towards social work?
Fatha Ahmed 24:01
I did, yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:03
Yeah. And how do you feel about the profession? What makes you want to stay in?
Fatha Ahmed 24:09
I actually like it. It's actually pretty like flexible. I want to get into foster care and CPS especially.
So I hope to take classes that helped me deal with that in the future.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:22
And what makes you lean towards foster care and CPS?
Fatha Ahmed 24:27
Well, I like kids, to start with, and then just helping people. So helping kids will be like, like a
dream.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 24:37
Interesting. Are you involved in any like programs? Because I know I did it- I did ask you if
you're involved in any, like specific Muslim stuff. Are you involved in anything else?
Fatha Ahmed 24:51
Yeah, so I'm involved in TRIO Upward Bound. I'm in that. I was in high school. It was called
Upward Bound, yeah. All three, all four years of high school I was it and then I realized that
Augsburg had a TRIO program. TRIO has a Success Program here. So I applied for that. And
then I got in and then, so I meet with my academic advisor every- once a month. So we just
talked about like, how classes are going like financial aid, scholarship opportunities and like
workshops.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 25:24
Interesting. So do you being in TRIO- Do you ever like, Do they ever have events where you get
to, like interact with other TRIO students or no?
Fatha Ahmed 25:34
Yes, we do. We do like workshops. So yeah, we see- We do like multiple things like we do
LinkedIn, like setting up your LinkedIn account, like this internship workshop, and like other
ones to like FAFSA workshop, so if you need to get your FAFSA done, they help you.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 25:55
Interesting and anything else on campus? That you are either involved in or used to do?
Fatha Ahmed 26:03
I was in- I was a treasurer for Women for Political Change last semester. I would say- it was just
for a couple months. But I would say that was one of the groups I like the most, because I don't
know, I like it was advocating for women. And like, yeah, I mean, it was a good experience while
lasted but yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:26
Is it not up anymore?
Fatha Ahmed 26:27
It's not. No, because most of the board members are studying abroad.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:31
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 26:32
So we decided to like take a break for a while. Maybe started it up next semester again, but I
don't know quite yet.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:39
Okay. And then so you do think you would be on the board again, like it would just continue on,
if it were to start off?
Fatha Ahmed 26:45
Yeah, probably. Most likely.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 26:47
So you did mention that you work. So where do you work?
Fatha Ahmed 26:51
So I currently have two jobs right now. I've been working at a retail job, JCPenney, for about
three years now. And then I work here on campus at University Events and I started that last
semester too.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:05
So what do you do for your on campus job the University Events?
Fatha Ahmed 27:10
So University Events is like a office that like coordinates like events that happen on campus. So
like if you have an event on campus, you go through them and like they help you like set up and
like help you schedule like stuff you need, like catering and everything. And if you need a room
for a meeting, they will like schedule them for you.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:31
Oh, okay, so then is it like a lot of computer work then?
Fatha Ahmed 27:35
I mostly do like emails like I schedule people's rooms and like, if I do have time I schedule like
events like any event, that happens on campus, that's all University Events.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 27:46
Okay. So what are your goals for the future?
Fatha Ahmed 27:51
My goals for the future are to get my bachelor's in social work. Maybe masters? But I don't know
yet, but I hope to work with child- CPS and foster care kids and like help them.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:09
And do you think you'll stay in the Twin Cities after you graduate?
Fatha Ahmed 28:13
Yes, probably 'cause I might get homesick.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:18
So you did mention that you're raised more traditional, do you think you would pass that on to
your kids too? Or do you think it will be more loose?
Fatha Ahmed 28:27
I would say more traditional, because that's what my mom would want. To set a good example,
like she did with me.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 28:36
Are your parents more traditional, like do you think that they think of interracial relationships? Or
do you think of interracial relationships? Or interreligious too.
Fatha Ahmed 28:48
Yeah. My parents are not for that actually. I don't know I might be. If the person is like, like, has
a stable job. Or if he's actually worth it. But, um, but yeah, we just like get to know them instead
of like making assumptions. Like "Oh they're not Somali because this or that".
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:14
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:15
But I'll be more open to it rather than my parents.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:18
Do you think there would be like difficulties within your- like if they were maybe like a Christian?
Do you think it would be difficult to navigate that relationship?
Fatha Ahmed 29:29
If I was with a Christian?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:30
Yeah, if you were with a Christian.
Fatha Ahmed 29:32
Yeah, that would be like a no go.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:34
For sure?
Fatha Ahmed 29:36
Yeah, it has to be a Muslim Somali person. It can't even be just be like Muslim.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:43
Oh, are you talking about your parents or yourself?
Fatha Ahmed 29:45
This is my parents view.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:46
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:47
I can't date or marry someone that's not Somali or Muslim.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 29:52
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 29:54
Somali- Well yeah. I can date someone that's Somali. I mean, get married to someone that's
Somali. But if it's a Muslim, like they have different- well we all have the same views but like,
they still don't want that.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 30:06
Interesting. Okay. I guess we can touch on like the- how you celebrate Eid here. Do you?
Fatha Ahmed 30:15
Oh, yeah. So it's- how I said it was different in Kenya, in America we usually just like go pray
and like like go to like Mall of America or something like that, like for the kids. It's like good for
the kids, but like older people like we usually just like go pray and then just go home and like
clean around the house,9 because it's like a day off, so you have nothing really to do. But in
Kenya, no one stays home. Everyone's outside or like at a party or something, which was
actually pretty nice, because we're not allowed to stay at our house. So we usually- in Kenya
when I went, first Eid, we went to the biggest- the mall, that was biggest mall in, I think the East.
Yeah, biggest mall on the East side of Africa. So and then, for the next Eid, we just went to- I
stayed home, but my siblings went on like these amusement parks and stuff. And they wereand they actually said that they liked Eif better there, than in America.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 31:24
So when you went to Kenya did all your siblings and your dad come to? With you, like to visit
your mom?
Fatha Ahmed 31:30
No. So May of this year my mom, my five younger siblings, and I went to Kenya. And then I
came back by myself in the end of August. Before school started. The end of August. But my
dad stayed here the whole time with my three other siblings. So only five of the younger ones,
my mom, and me went. I just went for the summer, to like help for- like with the kids like going.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 31:56
Oh, okay. And then they stayed back then?
Fatha Ahmed 31:58
They stayed back. She has a house over there, so.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:00
Ok, interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 32:01
Yes.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:03
So then what does she do there? Like did it relate to her job in America?
Fatha Ahmed 32:10
No, she just wanted to move there. Like she's- it's stress-free over there, so she doesn't have to
worry about anything. There's someone that like- she has someone that cooks for her and
cleans for her. So she's actually a chilling. She likes it. She doesn't want to come back, but she
might come back to work again butChyanne Phravoraxay 32:29
Oh, so she doesn't work there?
Fatha Ahmed 32:30
Now she doesn't.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:31
Oh, wow. Interesting.
Fatha Ahmed 32:33
Yeah, so my siblings both- they all go to school there now. And then, yeah. They're actually
living life.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 32:42
Nice. Okay. So then when do you think your dad would move there?
Fatha Ahmed 32:48
Maybe when I graduate. He might move there becauseChyanne Phravoraxay 32:50
Oh, that's coming up!
Fatha Ahmed 32:51
I know, because i will be having a "stable", according to him, butChyanne Phravoraxay 32:56
So with that mean your siblings are gonna stay with you?
Fatha Ahmed 32:59
Yeah. I'm sure they might. I mean, I think one of them might come back. Like the 13 year old. I
think he might come back, because he wants to go to high school here and graduate here and
go to college. And then yeah, just chill and I don't know, we'll see. Two years from now.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 33:15
So how is schooling there, like for your younger siblings? like Do they? Do they speak English in
schools or?
Fatha Ahmed 33:23
They do speak English. Yes, because there's mostly kids that I don't speak Swahili? So they
mostly speak English and everyone was English in Kenya. So that's good. The schools over
there, according to my brothers and my brother, he says it's way more stricter than they- in
America, because you have more like more work. Two times the work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 33:44
Do they pray? I mean, sorry. Do they pay for school?
Fatha Ahmed 33:47
They do, yes. It's like around the same amount. They actually do pay for school. YesChyanne Phravoraxay 33:50
Like as in, before like college then they are required to pay?
Fatha Ahmed 33:54
Yes, because it's like a private? I don't know. Just pay like for each kid. They have to pay. Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:01
Okay, and then so then your two younger brother twins, they're not in school yet?
Fatha Ahmed 34:06
They start school because the age limit is starting to starting school over there is four years old.
So they're starting in January, because they just turned four, like two days ago. So they'll be
starting in January.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:19
Oh, interesting. Is that when like the school year starts?
Fatha Ahmed 34:25
Yeah it's different over there. So they have- So they go to school January, February, March.
They don't go to school in May, June. And then, oh, wait, they don't go to school- They go to
school May, actually. They don't go to school June, July. Then they go in August. They go
September and they don't go to October, November, December. It's so differently like I was
confused at first.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:51
So then it starts in January then?
Fatha Ahmed 34:53
Their school year like they're- Like a new grade for them starts in January.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 34:56
Oh, okay. Oh, so it's like with the New Year?
Fatha Ahmed 35:00
Mmhm. So that's when the twins are gonna start. I don't know what grade they're gonna start.
But they're gonna start school in Janurary. I don't know what grade level they start. I think K1? I
don't even know. It's different.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 35:11
When you visited Kenya- So who were you mainly interacting with? Like we were you there to
visit family or?
Fatha Ahmed 35:22
Well, yeah. I had some family in Kenya. I mostly interacted with my cousins. And then my
neighbors who first introduced me to Kenya, and I help me with adjusting to it. And then my
neighbor who happened to be someone I was seeing a couple months later, it was gonna be
like, he proposed to me. 8I got to know them, actually. Yes, I got to know him. And then he
proposed, like two weeks before I was leaving.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 35:59
Oh, really.
Fatha Ahmed 36:00
Yeah, so I was like, he was like a nice- He's a nice person. Like he has like this future set and
everything. So I went with it and like we try and make this long distance thing work.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 36:11
Mmm. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 36:12
It worked for a couple months and then at first I was like, yeah, I can't do this anymore, because
long distance is like right really hard. They're like on the other side of the globe. But I still like,
talk to him from time to time. Maybe in the future when I'm actually ready ready, but he was
ready and I wasn't soChyanne Phravoraxay 36:34
Is that like, common? Like, do you think that they're ready at a younger age?
Fatha Ahmed 36:38
Yeah. I mean he was like two years older than me. So I feel like he was ready. He seemed
ready. But I'm 19 and I'm not ready for that yet. I feel like it's just like for someone that was born
in America, like they're set. Like they want to get married like when they're like 25 or something.
But people back there. They want to get married like when they're like 21 start having kids like a
year later or something.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:02
Okay, so then would they pursue college then while starting a family?
Fatha Ahmed 37:07
So he has a degree in engineering. He got it really early. He wants to- Yeah, he's been going to
school his whole life and then he's going for his master's pretty soon.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:16
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:18
But yeah. He was ready for it, but I wasn't. But we'll see in the future what happens..
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:24
So it's schooling different for college then? Like is it quicker is?
Fatha Ahmed 37:27
It's 6 years. He was doing engineering, so I feel like that was longer.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:32
Oh, okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:33
He started when he was 17?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:37
Oh, wow. Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 37:38
Yeah. So I don't know how many years of school he was in, but like he was in there for a while.
He got his bachelor's in engineering. He has a stable job and then he wanted to go for his
master's, so he's gonna go back to school, and then hope to get like a better job. But he travels
a lot so likeChyanne Phravoraxay 37:55
Oh, so you can meet up with him?
Fatha Ahmed 37:57
Yeah. Maybe.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 37:59
So can you like provide information on like the cultural aspects of marriages? So like, do you
guys have a certain tradition for marriages?
Fatha Ahmed 38:11
In Islam?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 38:13
Oh, so you follow the IslamFatha Ahmed 38:14
Yeah, well my parents follow the Islam one, so I'm pretty sure we follow the Islam one. So like
you marry someone that like you trust mostly and then you don't date them necessarily. Like
you get to know them and then your family- your parent, both your parents, if each side, they
meet, they talk and then yeah, there's like a wedding and everything and pretty basic actually.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 38:41
Oh, really? Like do you think it's similar to American weddings or other different aspects of it?
Fatha Ahmed 38:47
I mean, American weddings people usually meet like oh they met, they're friends, and they start
dating for like a long period of time, and then that's when they get married. But like in Islam, like
you get to know the person for like a while and then you just get to like the chase. You get to
them like right away. There's no time.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:04
Yeah. So how does the actual wedding like ceremony go?
Fatha Ahmed 39:11
Around noon, the men, only the men, are supposed to go to a mosque and then a imam like
reads like reads something to like the guy like his blessing. And then they eat, they just- like
their men congratulate the groom. And then later in the night, that's when the bride comes out
with her family- comes out with her and her family and her bridesmaids and everything. Just like
a regular basic wedding, but then we basically go crazy, during the nighttime.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:47
Oh, okay, so like how late is it? Like after sunset or like what do youFatha Ahmed 39:51
So they usually start like around 11 or midnight?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 39:54
Oh, that's when the bride shows up?
Fatha Ahmed 39:55
Yes. But actually that's when the bride shows up. The wedding starts around 9. So they do like
the dances and everyone's like just eating, dancing, and stuff. The bride comes in at 11 like
starts dancing with everyone and then she leaves to change. So she's wearing a cultural likecultural clothing. And then she leaves and it comes back with her groom. That's when all the
men come back. Yes, and then the wedding ends at like 4 the morning soChyanne Phravoraxay 40:23
Oh, really?
Fatha Ahmed 40:24
Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 40:24
So is there- What is the meaning behind like the time?
Fatha Ahmed 40:28
I don't really- don't know. Like, during the evening it's just the guys and then the night time. I
don't know what the meaning.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 40:37
So when you're talking about like the separation like when the guys come and the ladies comeso like, what are- what are both of them doing when they're not together then? Like, because
you said in the- at noon, it's like the guys and they're celebrating with the groom. So then what
are- what's the bride doing in the meantime, if they're not like at the wedding yet? Are they just
preparing or?
Fatha Ahmed 40:59
She- I think she preparing 'cause she gets her- the men are supposed to get like their, like their
blessings from like the dad and everything. Or something like that, before the wedding starts.
But the bride is just like preparing for the wedding and everything.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:15
So it's just like a one day thing then? Or like through the night?
Fatha Ahmed 41:18
So yeah, they have the wedding, during like the night and then I think they go on their
honeymoon like a couple of days later.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:26
Okay.
Fatha Ahmed 41:28
Pretty crazy, but you knowChyanne Phravoraxay 41:30
So then you think that your wedding would be like that too?
Fatha Ahmed 41:33
Yes. I mean, Somali weddings are like big, like really big. It's like the whole Minnesota comes,
but I was- yeah, I mean, I want a small wedding, but I know I'm not gonna have a small
wedding. I know for sure.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:47
Is that because of your parents? Like they want to throw a big one?
Fatha Ahmed 41:49
Yes. I mean especially my mom. She wants to invite like people from Europe.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 41:53
Oh, really? Well, you are the oldest.
Fatha Ahmed 41:55
That's true. But still. People from Europe? I don't even know them. She invites people that, we
like- She knows inside the family but like I barely know.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:03
Oh, okay. So then after the couple gets married, do they just living alone or?
Fatha Ahmed 42:08
Yes. Yeah, they have- When they get their house, they're not allowed to live together though,
until they get married. So they get their house before their wedding night. And then they usually
just- After the wedding, they just go to their house like official officially. But they're not allowed to
like stay together before they get married. Yeah, I guess it's like a sin or something?
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:38
Is that like just the Islam way of thinking then?
Fatha Ahmed 42:41
Yeah, let's- Yeah.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 42:42
Okay. Interesting. So do you have any last things to say to the viewers or like any messages or
advice that you would like to give?
Fatha Ahmed 42:52
Oh, I would say that I would encourage like the community to like I get to know more people,
around like your neighbors or something- Or your neighbors and classmates or anyone like just
get to know them better for who they are. Not like, what their beliefs or like- Like just get to know
them as a persom and like just not their religion. Don't worry about like what they believe in or
like what their culture is. So just like, get to know them and see like a different side of them,
instead of making assumptions.
Chyanne Phravoraxay 43:24
Yeah. Alright, well, thank you for coming in.
Fatha Ahmed 43:27
Thank you.
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
49:56
Speaker 1= Andrew Crowe
Speaker 2= David Crowe
Speaker 1
0:00
The following interview was conducted with David Crowe on behalf of Augsburg University for
the Augsburg during COVID oral history project took place on the second of April 2023 in
Eagan, Minnesota and will be stored in th... Show more
49:56
Speaker 1= Andrew Crowe
Speaker 2= David Crowe
Speaker 1
0:00
The following interview was conducted with David Crowe on behalf of Augsburg University for
the Augsburg during COVID oral history project took place on the second of April 2023 in
Eagan, Minnesota and will be stored in the Augsburg archives. The interviewer is Andrew
Crowe. So David, could you tell me a little bit about your background and education before you
got to Augsburg?
Speaker 2
0:23
I got my Bachelor of Arts degree in biochemistry at Gustavus Adolphus College in St. Peter,
Minnesota, in 1995. I moved from there to the University of Minnesota where I got my PhD in
neuroscience in 2001. Between 2001 and 2008, I did a combination of researching, research
and teaching at various times and various combinations over those years and then I was hired
by Augsburg College, which was what it was called at the time in 2008, into the biology
department.
Speaker 1
1:05
What has your experience been at Augsburg since you joined?
Speaker 2
1:11
I've been in the biology department since 2008. I primary primarily teach upper level biology
courses, neurobiology and physiology every year with a variety of other courses, intermixed
those courses and their lab components. Introductory bio honors, science, anatomy and
physiology in both types of introductory bio, special topics. So that's been my teaching, I
continue to do similar research to what I did. As a graduate student and as a postdoctoral fellow.
I still collaborate with Dr. Matt Chafee at the University of Minnesota on our research. So I
continue to be involved in research over the last three years. I've been the chair of the biology
department.
Speaker 1
2:05
Would you say you enjoy working in Augsburg?
Speaker 2
2:08
Yes, Augsburg is a great place to work. Great. I work with a great group of people in the biology
department. We have great students. It has been generally a pleasure. Yes.
Speaker 1
2:21
What made you want to be a professor.
Speaker 2
2:26
In college, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. I enjoyed science, I was a chemistry tutor.
And I kind of learned that I was good at helping students learn things I enjoyed teaching. So in
graduate school, and after graduate school, I took the opportunity to get teaching experience to
see if that would be something that I would want to do full time and it really clicked with me, I
enjoyed it a lot. And so I made it a goal of mine to teach at a place like Augsburg
Speaker 1
2:59
like to take us to early 2020. As the news of COVID-19 was spreading throughout the world.
Were you following the news that early?
Speaker 2
3:13
I was following it fairly closely. It seemed like something that had the potential to be very
serious. And what I did personally was find a bunch of scientists, experts in the field who were
speaking on social media, in particular on Twitter. And I started following a large number of what
I would consider some trustworthy experts. And from them, who were keeping track of
something that was inherently confusing and difficult to assess. I could at least keep up with
what the experts in the field were thinking at the time.
Speaker 1
3:59
So given that you were aware of the potential that this virus had to throw the world off course,
were you developing a plan for your classes, even before the school was officially shut down?
Speaker 2
4:11
The biology department I think was doing what I was we were following the situation fairly
closely. So I think we were thinking about it, maybe maybe before some other other people
were. But we really didn't even start thinking about it seriously until maybe a few weeks before
the classes did end up going online a few weeks before spring break probably late February, we
were starting to discuss contingency plans. Starting to discuss it at first, you know, with our more
vulnerable faculty members or our older faculty members be forced to come in. The first options
weren't just going online altogether, but maybe having some reduced presence on campus. So
we had a lot of different discussions about the potential things that we could end up doing,
generally focused initially on on the safety of the most vulnerable. But as the as the pandemic
pandemic seemed to be worse and worse, and I think as news out of New York started to show,
you know, hospitals being overwhelmed, I think it became clear that more than just keeping our
older faculty away was going to going to be necessary. Yeah, we were talking about it. Weeks, a
few weeks before, it was actually shut down. And we were keeping track of what other schools
were doing, as well.
Speaker 1
5:48
Okay. You said the older faculty members were more at risk? Was this? What was sort of the
feeling around campus? Were people taking it seriously, did they think it was going to be a big
thing, were the students not worried, were the people who were more at risk worried? Did you
have to convince people to be worried?
Speaker 2
6:11
Definitely, the older faculty members were the most paying the most attention to a generally, and
were the most worried as particularly if they had other kinds of health issues that make them
even more vulnerable. So not just within the biology department, but across campus, we did
hear from older faculty members that they were worried about it. Because I think certainly by the
late February, it was clear that this was a disease that affected people who are older, a lot more
than college student aged people. I remember at the time in my classes, the students didn't
seem to be concerned about it at all, were even a little bit mystified why why we would go online
or why classes might be canceled, or why even some faculty members would would not want to
come in. So I do think there was a in early March amongst the student population. I sense that
this was probably no big deal. I remember, there was a very famous graph shown on social
media from scientists became quite well known in terms of flattening the curve, the idea that if
cases peak really, really rapidly, they're going to overwhelm the, the countries or regions
capacity to help those people in hospitals. And we were seeing that in Italy. We saw that in New
York City, right, even in some places here in this country where the disease occurred so quickly.
As right. I was able to remind my students how exponential growth works. But yeah, the disease
take takes over so quickly that it can can overwhelm the capacity to treat people. And so I was
able to sort of show the students this idea of flattening the curve, the idea that perhaps the
same number of people will get it. But if there's a way to keep everybody from getting it all at
once, we can save many, many more lives that way. And so I used it as an opportunity to teach
students about various biological topics, in addition to actually explaining to them what the
nature of the threat was.
Speaker 1
8:39
Do you think that Augsburg took the threat of COVID as seriously as it should have in the
beginning? Do you think they move towards moving online classes at the right pace? What did
you think about the process to moving to fully online?
Speaker 2
8:57
I know, I remember that we were probably one of the last colleges to make that decision. I know,
faculty in the biology department had been paying attention to what other schools around the
country were doing. And we're a little dismayed that we weren't going online or suspending
classes for a week as quickly as some other places. On the other hand, I think the the disease
was peaking more in the northeast of the country. So cases hadn't started to go up here in
Minnesota by that time. But yeah, there was there were certainly people who thought we were
going too slow, if I remember right. We were or the administration was was listening very closely
to Minnesota State Health Department and kind of taking their cues from from that organization.
In addition to having the I think they had a COVID task force So I believe the, the head of
Augsburg physician assistant program, who is an expert in I think communicable diseases into
our public health was part of that decision making group as well. So I personally thought they
were being reasonable, but I do know that there were others that thought they were they could
have been a little bit more proactive.
Speaker 1
10:23
On March 16, Augsburg University announced that it would be moving to fully online classes
due to rising cases in the US and Minnesota. What were those last few weeks of the semester,
like when everything went online?
Speaker 2
10:40
So we, in the biology department, had been making plans for this. Even if it was just for a couple
of weeks, we had spring break, and I believe an extra week after spring break just off to help us
make that transition. One of the big things with the Biology Department, well for teaching was
how we how were we going to continue our labs? You know, these are sort of inherently hands
on experiences and and we had a lot of discussions about what we would do. For those, there
were there were some thoughts that maybe we would have, you know, some small number of
students come in, keep them distanced and still try to do some on or in person, lab work. I think
we ultimately decided against that, given what, what we learned over the next couple of weeks
about the nature of the disease and things. So we were throwing ideas around, I think,
ultimately, what we ended up doing was was doing a lot of biological simulations, it was, of
course, a very good opportunity to do disease transmission simulations. And so we did a lot of
that type of thing. I personally was teaching neurobiology, for which the labs are very technical.
And I was able to find some online replacements for the types of experiments we did, but
ultimately found them to be pretty lightweight and not not engaging in either intellectually or in a
technical or practical way. The other thing that biology department had to think about, and I
wasn't chair at this time, but we were all part of these discussions was we have a greenhouse
filled with living organisms and marine aquariums. Both of which need constant work, literally,
like literally every day. There's need to be maintained, those need to be plants need to be
watered. Fish needs to be fed. filters need to be changed. So we had to think about how we
were going to make sure that our facilities our living organisms, were going to survive over the
course of however long we were out.
Speaker 1
13:17
Did they have someone come in? I'm assuming and take care of those?
Speaker 2
13:20
literally. Leon Vanek our botanist, came in and made sure the plants lived and Bill Catman runs
the marine aquariums would come in every day, they would just have to make sure no one else
was around and time so that they could do it in isolation. But
Speaker 1
13:46
yeah, so you were Chair of the Academic Affairs Committee in the spring of 2020. Could you
describe a little bit about what the Academic Affairs Committee normally does, and then what it
had to do during the shutdown?
Speaker 2
14:02
So the Academic Affairs Committee is the Committee on campus that approves any changes to
the academic program. And that can be anything from a description of a course or the title
change of a course even to approving new courses to approving new majors. During that spring
we had been having and actually the entire school year, we had just wrapped up a campus wide
look at a proposed general education plan that would would change all of our liberal arts
foundations and things and, and so I the maybe the week or a week or two before the pandemic
hit, I gave a presentation at a faculty meeting giving the Academic Affairs response to the
proposal. We No voted it voted no overall on it. So that kind of thing changes the academic plan,
changes in grading systems. The other thing that we were doing in this case, fortuitously, during
that academic year, as one of the things I wanted to make happen was a committee of
technological, if not specialists, but some group on campus. To take a look strategically at how
we use technology would vary specifically, with regards to teaching courses online. Again, this
was all before the pandemic hit we, we had a sort of an ad hoc decision making structure for
accepting courses to be taught online. And I thought it would be useful to have a sort of a
broader discussion about where the college university goes, in terms of how we offer things
online, as it was, we could have probably just accepted piecemeal courses to be taught online,
then all of a sudden, you know, when Augsburg student could potentially get an entire major
online, right without ever visiting campus. And so I thought it was important that we had sort of a
more strategic discussion about where we were going with that. It turned out that that group of
people that we had gotten together on with us now the technical TEL area, it's all I remember
technology and technology enhanced learning committee, maybe I should probably know the
name of that those people became a huge boon to the campus because they could get together
as a group and start helping the campus together, prepare for online learning. And so it was
nice to have them all together at the same time. So that was kind of fortuitous that they were
already meeting and talking about technology.
Speaker 1
17:03
What specific challenges did you face on that committee? After it went online?
Speaker 2
17:11
We've almost entirely had to drop our normal slate of proposals to begin dealing with changes to
the academic proposal, the academic program necessitated by the pandemic, one of the first
things that we did was see proposals from various places on campus. Student Success Office
run by Katie Bishop, putting in proposals that we're going to help students through what was
going to obviously be a stressful time. And so one of the first things that we did was, I believe,
pass a proposal that allowed students to opt to take a course pass fail, and not have it count
towards the limit of of Pass Fail courses, the, you're allowed to typically have, I believe, we also
let them choose whether they would get pass fail at the end of the semester, once they saw
their grade. So some very specific proposals came in very early, trying to cope with the fact that
that, right, this was going to be difficult for everybody. We also heard from Student Government,
and so the student government was a strong voice for the students. And it really impressed on
us how stressful this was for the students. Once we were in our zoom classes, it was it was hard
to interface with the students and sort of in a personal way, right. And it was much, much harder
to get their feedback. So it was really, really useful to have student government come to AC and
explained that students were really stressed out about it. They have some very specific
proposals for how they thought classes should be should be graded. The Academic Affairs
Committee discussed those specific proposals, we sent them on to the Faculty Senate, in our
group that would be looking at something like that. And we took them very seriously. And
ultimately, what we did is we came up with a number of policies that we thought would be fair,
but also make sure that we were still doing our job educating students, we need to make sure
that we are still maintaining our accreditation. Giving every student today is not something that
the accreditors would generally see as fulfilling our educational mission. We looked at what
other students other schools were doing, and we tried to just just do what we thought was was
best in terms of the academic mission of the college but also understanding that this was an
unprecedented moment for both faculty and students. In addition to some of the formal policy
changes that we signed off on, we also wanted to I think this was one of the main things in
response to the student concerns is that we wanted to let the faculty across campus know, what
the students were thinking without having them write, interact. So we were sort of a conduit for
the students concerns. And so we put out a statement that essentially said, you know, this is
new territory for us, all students are, you know, never signed up for online courses, you know,
they never signed up for any of this, a lot of them are going to be in really challenging home
situations, dealing with financial stresses and potentially right COVID At home. And so we sort
of strongly recommended that, that faculty deal with students in a way that was ultimately, you
know, compassionate. That was, that was the sort of thing we wanted to stress, we had some
specific recommendations about extending deadlines and, and other other things grading on
curves. If you don't normally do that. You We can't tell faculty what to do. That's, you know, a
strong pillar of, of an academic institution is academic freedom, right? We are given the
freedom, and there's responsibility to treat the teach our classes as we think is best. And so
anytime that that you want to get all the faculty to do something together, it can be difficult. And
so knowing that, like not every faculty member will be on board with everything, we felt like we
excuse me, we felt like a strong plea to the faculty that we we put on the website, and it was
sent out sort of daily in the Augsburg mail that goes out every day, we sent that out a number of
times, just a request that faculty treat students with compassion. And we all treat each other
with compassion as well. And understand that this is difficult for everybody. So I think I think
ultimately, I think ultimately, that is actually what happened.
Speaker 1
22:33
What plans were made in the summer of 2020. Regarding the upcoming school year, did they
ever consider a hybrid model? A hybrid model, like the ones that high schools in the state were
using? Or were they set from the beginning on fully online?
Speaker 2
22:50
No, there was a lot of discussion. In that summer, about what the school was going to do, I
remember filling out a survey that asked about what I, you know, got my opinion on it. I
remember being mildly offended when it seemed like it was worded as if I were not fulfilling my
duty if I wasn't coming in and teaching classes online. And I know, again, some of our older
faculty members were not entirely pleased by the the implied suggestion that if they weren't
doing coming in the they were letting everybody down. So I remember early on in the in the
summer, there was a lot of uncertainty. But I believe at some point in time, maybe mid June, I
don't remember remember the timeline. But at some point in time, there was a realization that
the fall for sure was going to be online. And that probably spring is as well. And so throughout
the entire summer, from the moment I became chair, on May 1, we as a biology department
would have regular meetings, essentially discussing what we were going to do with both our
curriculum. We have a lot of lab classes and we have a lot of things we want our students to
learn before they move on. But also how we were going to approach our individual courses you
know, in the fall, sorry, in the spring I don't believe many of us were familiar with or had the the
option to jump on on Zoom and use them for our classes. So in general, we all move to a sort of
asynchronous online format in the in the for the last few weeks of spring. But we started
becoming more familiar with Zoom, all of our meetings, of course, were held over zoom, we all
got a lot more familiar and if not happy with it, at least used to using it and so we We felt like we
were going to be able to deliver our courses, or at least the lecture portions of our courses over
zoom. Any port in the storm, I guess, right, it's nice. We no one thought it was going to be
optimal. But we talked a lot about how to do it as best we could. And we all help each other out.
We all helped plan the introductory courses, which are kind of the most important courses for
our students coming in. We needed to decide what those students what experience they would
get as first year college students coming in. And if it were going to be online, how to give them
the best, the best learning opportunity that they could. In terms of labs, we did decide that we
were going to try to do a lot of simulations for the introductory courses. A lot of what they learn
is, can be can be simulated, but we knew that they were going to be lacking a lot of hands on
technical skills. For sophomore level classes, we had to cancel our cell biology lab, which is one
of the places where they learn a lot of techniques that they will use throughout the course of the
rest of their career at Augsburg as biology majors. So we had to make some contingency plans
for that. We knew that sophomore level genetics course could have quite a bit of online
component. There's a lot of things you can do with online genetic databases. And so we were
as a as a group planning some of our what we call our course, core courses, first year biology
courses, and then our sophomore level courses, all all bio students have to take those. So as a
group, we worked together on those. And then we just discussed amongst ourselves, you know,
the things that we were planning on doing for our own upper level courses. So we worked quite
a bit together during that summer, in preparation,
Speaker 1
27:04
you mentioned you became department chair that may Could you tell me a little bit about what
that entails?
Speaker 2
27:12
Yes, to some extent, I could never give you a complete description of all of the things that the
department chair does. The department chair essentially is the administrator for the
departments pays attention to course schedules hires adjuncts, who are part time faculty that
need to take teach classes that we don't have full time faculty to teach. The chair deals with the
budget, which was a completely up ended during the COVID years. The chair deals with any
questions that students have of the department, it could be complaints, or it could be questions
about the schedules. The chair organizes departmental meetings and works with the faculty on
things that the department was working on. Before the pandemic, the biology department had
big plans to begin working on developing a new curriculum for our first year and potentially
second year courses. That was one of the things that we had planned and that the pandemic
disrupted, we were also going to undergo what's called program review. So every so often,
every department has to undergo an external review by external reviewers. And we were
planning on doing that as well that got up to up ended by the pandemic. In biology, there's a lot
of management of the lab spaces. We have a lab manager that helps out with that as well, but
keeping track of the use of the labs as well. I'm sure there are lots of things I'm missing. I'm very,
very busy as department chair
Speaker 1
29:14
That sounds like a lot of work.
Speaker 2
29:17
Basically anything that comes up and so it's always you know, it's always something different.
Speaker 1
29:23
Yeah. You kind of touched on it a little earlier. But what were some of the difficulties in the 2020
2021 school year, the first full year of the pandemic.
Speaker 2
29:38
We can discuss that unless you wanted to discuss teaching during the
Speaker 1
29:45
Oh yeah, I mean, what were some difficulties with teaching during that year?
Speaker 2
29:49
I forgot what year was which. This is the this is the online year yeah. So as as much as we can
worked together and prepared. And as much as we continued as a biology department to work,
talk with each other about how things were going, it was still still fairly difficult. We were all doing
this for the first time. Like I said, the there were a lot of useful resources developed by the
technology committee that were available to us, we made full use of all of those. All that I
believe one of our classes in biology was taught synchronously, online. And we thought that was
important, we thought that having that the back and forth having students be present, if even if a
resume was important, so almost all of our classes were done synchronously using Zoom. I
think here, my personal recollection is probably the most the most useful be the first semester,
one of the courses I was teaching was animal physiology. I had for many years prior to the
pandemic, wanted to flip the classroom teaching technique by which students sort of learned the
basics before coming to class. And then we use the class time to have discussions and things
and, and I had tried that with getting the students to do reading before class, but I was never
really able to, I think be strict enough to enforce it, just because it's easier for the students and
easier for me not to have done it. So the pandemic, actually in the the fact that everything was
going to be on a computer, allowed me to, to actually flip the classroom. And to do that I did one
of the other strategies, which is to record a video lecture. And so my goal was to have a video
lecture pre recorded for every class period. And then we would use the class period, for
discussion for problems for q&a. Any number of different ways that we could make use of that
time? That wasn't just me. Right? lecturing, they could watch that beforehand. And then we
could use the zoom time. Better, I would have Google documents were students who had been
randomly assigned into groups could get together and write out answers on a active as a
Google slide because they could draw pictures, but they'd write out answers to study questions
or to discussion questions. And then they would go into zoom groups together and do that. And
then we often meet at the end of class together and discuss everybody's answers. So you know,
that's the, that's the dream is that they'd all get together and discuss the questions and we could
talk about it. In reality, a lot of students, you know, logged in, but probably never contributed to
discussions, I think, you know, there are a lot of discretion interactions where people are, I didn't
force anybody to have their camera on, I think, you know, that was something actually, and we
discussed in a sea that we, you know, we couldn't enforce that there are a lot of reasons to not
enforce students having their camera on even though I, I, I valued every one of my four or five
students that regularly had their, their cameras on and it was always good to have a core group
of students that and this is true of any class, but that is engaged in and can keep discussions
going and, and helping other students. And it's, it's fairly hard to, to get responses from a black
square on a screen. And so, we did the best we could and and you know, that was those were
the general class periods for assessment of the lecture lecture portion of my class. I essentially.
So I normally have weekly quizzes instead of tests and they're, you know, sheets of paper, pen
and paper. I didn't feel like I could have weekly assessments. So instead, when sort of two or
more traditional three or four tests, the tests, I know, a lot of faculty across the country, we're
making use of really, what I would consider heinous spyware, or the surveillance states kind of
have programs that would track students eye movements and force them to look at the screen.
And I didn't want any part of that. And I don't think any, anyone in our no one in our department
did, although we did have one faculty member who literally sent his his test out via the mail, in
sheets of paper to the to the students. But what I did is I made online tests, and I allowed
students free access to their notes, to my videos to the book to the vast store of knowledge that
is the internet in order to answer the questions. And so, you know, we had given that I had to
change a little bit of how I, you know, construct an assessment, typically, if they have to sort of
have everything sort of, at their fingertips without being able to look it up, I have to ask a range
of different types of questions. Ideally, in an upper level biology student, right, all my students
are able to really understand what they're learning and so that they can, they can not only
explain it, but they can use that information to make new inferences to predict what would
happen, right, I can ask what if questions, but, but if I only ask those kinds of questions in class
and a normal class, right, only the A students will, will do well, so I generally need to ask a
range of questions, sort of that, right, the students that just kind of want to memorize some
things and learn things at a surface level can at least, you know, make sure that they pass the
class. But online, we're all the information is just there at their fingertips, I was, I was able to, I
guess, have have tests that were almost entirely, you know, deeper levels of understanding.
Here's what you know, I can even say, here's what we know about, you know, this aspect of
physiology, given that, right, and these other things that you've learned, you know, what would
happen if if the animal did this or was in this environment? So I could ask more questions like
that. And so I would, I learned a lot of what to do and what not to do and ask, ask or any tests
like that. But it was definitely a change. And I didn't want to enforce any kind of surveillance
state. Observations, I figured I would just let them have access to all the information that they
wanted. So that was how the lecture part of my class went. Biological classes have labs
associated with them, it's really, really an important aspect of our students education, and we
were not able to have them in person that year. So for physiology in the fall, what I thought I
could do that would be beneficial to our students was help our students learn some basic
computer programming and data analysis. Those are two things that I do in my research. And
they are things that I teach my summer research students to do when I when I had when I
mentor students, both, I guess, both over the summer and over the school year. And the way I
set it up is I had students learning from an online a free online computer programming source.
And then I had a number of of exercises that they would do. And each lab is four hours. So I
would just sort of hold a four hour session where I would give some some lessons and basic
background in the first half an hour or so. And then the rest of the time the students would be
able to work and I would just be available via zoom. In my experience, computer programming
is quite difficult for a lot of students. And, you know, I'm kind of trying to teach them maybe a
whole semesters worth of computer programming just over the course of, of, of a lab you know,
15 weeks but but have a lab and I didn't want to make it a you know, an entire computer science
course it's labs or one credit. And none of the students of course, when they registered for
physiology in the spring, they were thought they were registering for regular physiology with
their the fun in person labs that we normally have. So knowing that students did not sign up to
do computer programming. I didn't quite make it optional, but I did understand that not every
student was going to was going to click with it. And so I was as long as they were making an
honest effort to do the work. You know, I got an A a small handful Have students really, really did
really, really well. One of the things that happens when I teach students programming is that
sometimes they learned that they really are good at and they love it, and they want to keep
doing it. And so a couple of those students became my summer research students. Another
one, use computer programming and his other research program that summer with a different
professor was now able to, to do some more advanced analysis. So it helped, I think, a number
of students and it didn't, it didn't hinder students that really didn't sign up for the next semester
with neurobiology, I could not justify an online lab, there was just I just could not think of a way
that was not a waste of everybody's time to do the kinds of things that that I thought are
valuable, I think are valuable in a neurobiology lab. So I just canceled it, was one of the few labs
that actually got canceled, but that and cell biology, we just didn't feel like we could do them
justice.
Speaker 1
41:03
So the summer after that year, Augsburg was looking into how they were going to bring people
back to campus. And there was a bit of a debate around whether or not they would be requiring
vaccines or not. And there were some rumors throughout the summer that they would not be
requiring vaccine cards. Obviously, in the end, they did but if you could tell me a little bit about
how you thought that process went, whether you thought they should require vaccine cards or
not, and just where you stood on the whole thing.
Speaker 2
41:38
Well, the entire biology department, as people who know about diseases and basic biology,
could not have been more in favor of requiring vaccines. Literally one of the most positive
benefits to humanity that had ever been ever been discovered. and the vaccine that we knew
was out for COVID had was better than I think anyone could have ever imagined it was going to
be. Some of the experts were saying that if it had a 50% success rate, that it would least be
something and it would be a benefit. And it turned out that its ability to cut down on on on the
worst aspects of the disease was 90-95%. And so it was it was extremely, extremely good news
to have that vaccine. And yeah, we were all in obvious agreement that the college would be
best off to require it. I think by that time, we all knew that college students really were not
particularly at risk from this disease, you know, there's a risk to everybody. But we were really
concerned about the most vulnerable, both on campus and off, right, this is a, you know,
communicable diseases aren't, you know, just something that a single person gets, and that's
where it stays. And so, we've thought it was really, really important that our students be
vaccinated, not just for all of our faculty members, including some that are older, others that are
immunocompromised, or both. But we also have students in that in that in those positions, but
also, you know, for students, families, for their parents or their grandparents, and honestly, you
know, for society in general. Having a high vaccination level is important. It's it's a, it's a societal
good, and the biology department felt very strongly about it. So we were worried when we heard
rumors that, you know, there would be no requirements at all. And ultimately, they came up with
a requirement that wasn't really a requirement. And it probably could have been stronger and if
it were stronger, it's probably a fact that there would be students that have parents or
grandparents now that that didn't, or that don't because of that policy. Seems likely.
Speaker 1
44:23
Well, yeah, as you said in the end, they did go with a semi requirement for the vaccines umm,
going into the 2021 22 school year. Could you give me a quick summary of that year as
everything was finally brought back in person?
Speaker 2
44:40
So we were all ready and excited to get back in person. Masks were required and is sort of
relatively annoying as they are generally people didn't have a problem with them and teaching
with one isn't optimal, you have to talk a little bit slower, a little bit more louder, and it hurts the
throat a little bit more to have to make your voice carry yet even more. But honestly, the the
masks and the the, you know, the things having to do with the keeping the pandemic from
spreading weren't the main thing I remember from that time, it is just how. how difficult it was for
students in general. After having a year of online teaching where everyone was kind of trying to
do their best, students weren't as prepared, right, they just had not been educated as well,
right? Because we were all trying something for the first time both faculty and students. And so
we ended up making as a faculty, certainly in the biology department, a lot of sort of extending a
lot of the sort of treating students with extra compassion, we ended up extending more
deadlines, we extended, you know, just we we found that just to keep the students with us, we
had to, to back off on a lot of things that we would normally do. And students still struggled. And,
you know, interestingly enough, I think we probably went too far in removing a lot of the
structure that the students actually benefit from I know, I've talked with people whose whose job
it is to help students who need accommodations, people in the class office, for example, and,
and they sort of uniformly say, yeah, you actually have to have, you can't remove all this
structure. And we thought, I think, you know, we were we were helping them by removing a lot
of the structure. But I think ultimately, it hurt. And so we learned when we move on. But it was it
was a difficult year, both for students and faculty coming back from from a year of online
teaching.
Speaker 1
47:18
And last question here, What would you say are some of the lasting effects of and you kind of
just touched on it there COVID In general, and some of the policies and ways of teaching that
had to be developed, because of COVID.
Speaker 2
47:35
I think there have been a lot of effects in terms of ways of teaching. I can now. In fact, I did this
two days ago, you turn on Zoom, for students that are sick at home, we don't want students who
are sick to come in, right. It's one of the things we have learned. And so if a student can come
into my class and hear the discussions via zoom, that's potentially a good thing I do. You know, I
made zoom an option last year, and I think too many students took it as an option. And it turned
out right that the students that mostly attended, and making air quotes for that right via zoom
didn't do as well as the students that showed up in person. So it's a balancing act that I think
we're going to have to deal with. But it gives us more flexibility. Without the new technologies
that we've we've learned, I think students are, are still showing the effects of not getting the
background education that they normally would have. The sciences tend to be very sort of
pyramid structures, where students really do have to learn things in order, we have a lot of
prerequisites, we have a lot of biology and chemistry that students need to learn before they can
start learning about other things. And, and students who missed out on the best education for
that, I think, continue to struggle a little bit. But I think in general, and this is probably society
wide. And this is just an observation. It's I'm not sure it's now certainly seems to be true. But as
of now, here in what year is it? 2023. Yep, thank you. In the spring of 2023, people in general,
and this seems to be faculty I talked to and students I talked to everyone is just very, very
burned out very tired, exhausted. And I think it's just a hangover from everything that we as
learn as as learners, as teachers as a society went through over the last couple of years. That's
just the there seems to be a general thing.
Speaker 1
49:49
Well, thank you very much for your time. You've provided some excellent insight. Yeah, thank
you.
Show less
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Tue, 4/16 · 4:11 PM
36:58
KEYWORDS
people
jewish
soup
born
thought
judah
lived
esther
Rebecca Hartwig
years
place
tunisia
sleeping
gave
day
moved
job
called
america
orphanage
quaker
... Show more
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Tue, 4/16 · 4:11 PM
36:58
KEYWORDS
people
jewish
soup
born
thought
judah
lived
esther
Rebecca Hartwig
years
place
tunisia
sleeping
gave
day
moved
job
called
america
orphanage
quaker
0:00
Thank you for joining us here for this oral history project. My name is Rebecca
Hartwig, I'm a lecturer in the nursing department at Augsburg University. And I
just need to confirm that you consent to be interviewed, and to have the
recorded interview stored at Augsburg, which will be made available to the
public. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording, your name and
title?
CJ
Chef Judah
0:22
Sure, my name is Chef Judah. short and simple. My real name is Jean-Claude
Patrice Nataf, but my professional name is Chef Judah.
Rebecca Hartwig
0:30
Thank you. So just to begin, can you tell us a little bit about where you grew
up?
CJ
Chef Judah
0:35
Okay, I was born in a small country in North Africa called Tunisia. I was born
in the city of Tunis. I come from a mixed heritage of Sephardi Jewish and
Arab. I believe my Sephardi Jewish family lived in Africa since probably
around the seven hundreds. But then most notably, they were asked to leave
around 1492. And they ended up in Morocco. And after a few centuries, made
their way to Tunisia. And so that's where I come up on the scene.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
1/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Rebecca Hartwig
1:10
Okay, thank you. So what was your life, like when you were growing up?
CJ
Chef Judah
1:16
Sure, um, my life was challenging. I was... I just tell people simply I was a
barefoot child beggar, kind of to encapsulate and give you the idea. And I just
sometimes, I just ask people to remember maybe movies or documentaries,
the I'm at a scene where tourists are in countries, poor countries, and the
children are all mobbing, mobbing them for money and all that. And that's
kind of like, that was kind of my life. And I had my own little group of our
gang, if you will. And that's what we did. We, we were hungry. And so we
would, we would bother the British tourists, especially because they were
really rich. And we would beg for money, of course, and, and sometimes,
unfortunately, we stole from them. I'm not proud of that. But that's what we
did, you know. So my life was kind of like that my family for reasons I didn't
know then just wasn't very active and taking care of me. I only figured out
later in life, all the dynamics and reasons why that was.
CJ
Chef Judah
2:21
So the first eight years of my life was spent in and Tunisia. Again, kind of a
challenge in existence, and just a lot of stuff happening. I spent some time in a
Catholic orphanage in the north of the country. It was run by the Sisters of St.
Vincent de Paul. And again, my family was so dysfunctional that I didn't
realize it was an orphanage until I was an adult. I thought it was a boarding
school. But I ran away from this orphanage quite a lot because there was stuff
going on and there wasn't pleasant. So until one fateful day in 1967, when I
actually ran to the orphanage, and I didn't come out until it was adopted and
left the country in 1968.
Rebecca Hartwig
3:04
Tell us about that day.
CJ
Chef Judah
3:07
June 5, 1967.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
2/21
8/15/2019
CJ
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Chef Judah
3:27
Unbeknownst to me, a war had started in the Middle East. I didn't have any
ideas about it. And I didn't even have any ideas of what I was. I was so I won't
say stupid, but I was ignorant. I didn't know Jewish I didn't know Muslim or
Arab at all, but on that day, when I went to work in the streets and meet my
little gang, it was just a different situation and angry mob, for some reason
that I didn't realize then started to chase me and stone me and stuff, which I
bear all the scars on my face. But it was a scary time for me. I was little I was
just had turned seven. And so then, at that point, I made my way to the
orphanage. And like I said, I stayed there. I did not leave the gates of the
other walls of the orphanage until 1968, I believe it was August. Tunisia was
the only country in Africa to be occupied by the Nazis. And some of the Nazis
came down and occupied Tunisia. My family did different things but my one
anut was in the French Resistance. So she did all this stuff. So when the US
Army and British armies liberated Tunisia, she kind of attached herself to the
US Army as an interpreter, because she was multilingual. And that's where she
kind of glommed onto a GI. And that was her ticket to America,. You have to
understand that that time frame in that place, a lot of people wanted to get
out of this, go somewhere else anywhere, but and of course, America was the
great beacon. So she came to Toledo, Ohio, and 46 times, and then a few
husbands later, she ends up with her new husband, a Danish man born in a
small island in the Baltic. And they were on their honeymoon, and they were
going to go to Paris, but it was the Paris guard? strike that year. Their plane
was diverted, and they ended up in Tunisia. And they came to see me at the
orphanage because they had heard about me, and then they wanted to
adopt me. So that's the.. I remember the day that Mother Superior came to
me with these presents. And it was two presents that I'll always remember
keeping in mind that didn't have anything. It was a Mickey Mouse watch, and
a pair of Fruit of the Loom underwear. As a kid, I saw those things and like, I'm
like, I want more of this. And so I was very eager to leave that place to leave.
So Mother Superior told them that I would be a blessing to them. So my aunt
being very superstitious because Tunisia is a very superstitious place in my I
know my family, which was a mishmash, my grandfather was Sephardic
Jewish, my grandmother was Italian Catholic, there were 25 years apart. They
fell in love and lived in a in an environment that was hostile to both of them. It
was a Muslim environment that didn't like either group, but they loved each
other and seven children, but superstition all mixed in Italian, Catholic, Islamic
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
3/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Jewish, all kinds of the Evil Eye was everywhere. You had to do all these signs
to ward it off and wear amulets. So my aunt was superstitious and so not
superstitious, but when Mother Superior said "he'll be a blessing to you", like
oh, yeah, let's, let's get this. Let's take this guy out of here. And so just notably,
I had my first pair of shoes for the airplane. Right. So yeah.
Rebecca Hartwig
6:24
And that's how you came to the US then, whey you were about eight?
CJ
00:00
1x
Chef Judah
6:26
36:58
Eight years old, yes. So it was kind of going from one universe to another. I
5
5
remember, well, first of all the plane trip, everything. In those days, you could
go in the cockpit and the captain would give you this little wings and it was
very exciting. But I always remember I write stories about Americanization, or
at least me when I stepped off the plane and was in the airport. And when
those big glass doors opened. And I saw America, I saw 1000 cars there. And
my adoptive father Ben Larson worked for Ford Motor Company. So he had
this huge straddle cruiser I don't know what make I think was Continental this
huge car. And so for me, a little brown skinned guy who just came from
beggin' in this vehicle and my face is pressed to the window of the car - we
were going through the rolling hills of of the suburbs of Detroit, we're going to
Bloomfield Hills, which was a very well off suburb to a condominium called
Fox Hills. I remember seeing this undulating hills of green and I didn't know
really what that was. I come from a place where every little scrap of land that
you could grow food on or was used for that. So I asked my aunt I didn't know
English them. So , qu'est-ce que c'est ca?, you know, and she goes, Oh, that's
grass. She explains it to me. And when she tells me that it wasn't food, that it
wasn't flowers, for the perfume industry. It wasn't anything. It was just there
for looks. I thought that this is like the promised land. This is what I heard of
heard little things as a child you hear about America and how it's awesome.
And that was like, Oh, yeah, this is this is it. So and then I show up to my new
home condominium and I had my own bedroom and there was a TV in every
room. And so that was a very, it was an initial very shocking for me. And I
slept with my shoes for a whole month because I was afraid somebody was
going to steal them. And then they convinced me nobody was going to steal
your shoes. It's okay. And so that was my introduction to America.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
4/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Rebecca Hartwig
8:35
So you finished high school...in...
CJ
Chef Judah
8:39
Oh, well, I, I was eight years old. And really up to that time, I had had no
formal schooling. There was something at the orphanage - we learned we
learned French, Arabic, Script. But when I came to America, I was sorely
behind the American system of education. I'm not sure what grade I would
have been put in, but I was behind I had to learn English first. And so I had
learned English really quickly.
CJ
Chef Judah
9:04
But in learning my English so quickly, I had actually pushed aside my French
language. It was still here, but I wanted to be American so much that and my
parents did not encourage and the bilingualism really for me.
CJ
Chef Judah
9:20
So a year and a half later, though, I just learned English then we moved to
Japan.
CJ
Chef Judah
9:26
And so then there was another kind of another cultural shock. For me exciting
as a kid and being an executive brat. In the moment, it was exciting, but it's
only in retrospect that I realized that what I really, really, really, really wanted
was just to stay put in one place and and just you know, and in the time that I
was with my adoptive parents this eight years I was with them, we moved six
times. Six schools, six places six. So I was always the new kid. Always. And
that wasn't really what I...
Rebecca Hartwig
10:00
In Japan for...
CJ
Chef Judah
10:02
We were there for three years. And even in Japan, we moved twice.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
5/21
8/15/2019
CJ
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Chef Judah
10:08
And it wasn't until 1976 when they wanted to go to Japan again and I I did not
want to go again. I just so just the way things happened. My mom had
learned about this some my adoptive mom had learned about a Quaker
school, boarding school in the Appalachians and that's where I went
Rebecca Hartwig
10:29
to finish high school...
CJ
Chef Judah
10:30
yes, my junior senior year, which was really wonderful.
CJ
Chef Judah
10:36
I love the Quakers.
Rebecca Hartwig
10:39
And then and then how did you end up here in Minneapolis?
CJ
Chef Judah
10:42
Sure, I finished, '78 I graduated and then I and then I was lucky as an
executive brat. My present was a trip around the world literally I went to Asia
and European and came back to America and a new car. Which I returned
because I was in this phase of rebelliousness and I didn't want this. This you
know, of course now I'm thinking gosh I was stupid. It was a nice sky- blue
Mustang retro, oh my god. But um, I was just in rebellion stage and I said I'll
take your filthy car back. So I went to Earlham College for one year in
Richmond, Indiana. It was Quaker based, so there was connections and, and
my year at Earlham, my one and only year at Earlham was the best funnest
year of my life, but wasn't a good student at all. And I figured out I just wasn't
wired for academics. At that point. I was just too antsy and I just wanted to go
to California because that was what we were doing then. You went to
California, whatever your questions were they would be answered in
California. So I packed up all my stuff and started hitchhiking from Richmond,
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
6/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Indiana, to make my way to California. On that route. I ended up in Madison,
Wisconsin, where a good friend of mine from Quaker school. Abe Rybeck said
you know what? You should stop the Minneapolis, St. Paul, it's really cool. And
so that was 1979 and I never made it to California.
Rebecca Hartwig
12:07
Oh, wow. You've been here ever since...
CJ
Chef Judah
12:09
With trips. I've lived in the panhandle, Florida. I've lived in Arizona and I went
to Hiroshima University. But Minneapolis, St. Paul became my nest my my
central place to go back to always.
Rebecca Hartwig
12:24
So what did you do in Minneapolis?
CJ
Chef Judah
12:26
Boy, when I first rolled into town, I remember my first night I spend at
McAllister College. I had one friend there and they were having a housing
shortage, so there was kids sleeping in the hallway. So I blended in. And then
the next day, there was a board that had housing and jobs. And I was able to
find the room for rent and I was able to find a job in the cafeteria of
McAllister. And so I did that for a while. And this job entailed me go into two
different addresses every day to help elderly people and stuff like that and
taking the bus system. And one day, I took the wrong bus or the right bus,
whatever you might call it, but I ended up on the West Bank of Minneapolis.
See, all my jobs were in St. Paul. So when I got off that bus in the West Bank
of Minneapolis in 1979, I looked around and I thought this is really where I
need to be. Just to quote Bob Dylan, "There was music in the cafes at night
and revolution in the air." It was still palatable than. It's been transformed
since then. It was just a real cool place and....
CJ
Chef Judah
13:29
so I was a gypsy I moved around a lot. I'm not sure if it was the influence of
my childhood where we moved so much but I found it hard to be sedentary.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
7/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
And so it's just various jobs, you know, here and there and I took a few courses
here school trying to get more academics but um, I wasn't a very good
student at all, you know,
Rebecca Hartwig
13:51
a lot of ways of learning.
CJ
Chef Judah
13:53
Right. I guess I learned a lot. Other ways. Certainly. I just wasn't that good
academic. I wasn't wired for it.
Rebecca Hartwig
14:00
So here we are at Soup For You already, and I'm not quite sure when that... I
don't really know the history of Soup For You.
CJ
Chef Judah
14:07
Oh, sure. Well, a lot of things happened in my life. I moved around a lot Japan
a few times Pensacola, Florida Panhandle. I love my America experience is
really great, because it's such a huge country. And I feel blessed that I was
able to, you know, get the feel of different parts of it the Midwest, the South,
scary, the Southwest. So odd jobs, of course, I had a little apartment in
Stephen Square and I had a job where I had to get on the bus and the bus
would go over the Franklin bridge to take me to MiniMatic ?and it was an
okay job. But I got a paycheck every week. And I was able to have a place
and food on the table. And I would be on this bus going this way in that way
back and forth. And each time we went over the bridge, I would look down
and back then at least I would see things down there like tents and things and
people and I wondered naively, I thought those were people just camping or
fishing for fun. I never thought once that I might be one of those people down
there. So one day when I went to work and got my paycheck, I was told
because I was like the new, the new people got laid off. And so, paycheck
away...
CJ
Chef Judah
15:20
I lost my place eventually, because obviously I couldn't.. I didn't have any
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
8/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
money. I didn't have a support structure. I didn't have family, my family was
thousands of miles away. I had no really friends that were able to help me.
And so I - I spent quite a few weeks just sleeping on the buses, like the 21A. But
then I would start to go to the free eating places. And that's where I hooked
up with people that said, Well, you know, you could live, you know, and so I
ran into two people. One was a Vietnam vet. And one I don't know what he
did, he was a railroad guy. But we had a structure, they had a structure
became part of this little three man group of living under the bridge.
Rebecca Hartwig
16:04
What years were there was under the bridge years?
CJ
Chef Judah
16:07
it was the late 80s. Sometimes it's a fog. But that land belonged to the
railroad. But if you as a person, as a homeless person wanted to live down
there, you actually had to pay some rent to this group called the Freight Train
Riders of America. FTRA, a notorious group that rides the rails, just a lot of
psychos and Vietnam vets with a lot of problems. But you have to pay them
something, you could pay them in different ways. And so I liked it. And for
that, they gave you a lot. They provided security. And they provided justice.
And I give the example of one time we were able to go to Mary Jo
Copeland's, and were able to get these nice galoshes for all three of us, and
that was important, you know your feet, the slush, and all the crap. And so we
had them in our encampment, and we weren't using them then. But one day,
we came back and they were gone. And so long story short, the FTRA or the
"goon squad", they found out who stole our our galoshes,
Rebecca Hartwig
17:14
wow....
CJ
Chef Judah
17:16
and they chopped their thumb off...
CJ
Chef Judah
17:20
so that was an introduction to this is kind of this is real here. This is for real.
This is a real subculture And it's very serious And there's a structure and
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
9/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
This is a real subculture. And it s very serious. And there s a structure and
there's rules and stuff and you don't break the rules. If you do you end up
without a thumb. And so that was kind of an awakening for me that this was
you know, serious stuff. Just saying, because not having shoes can cost you
your toes your feet, so you don't steal those things from anybody and
anyway...
CJ
Chef Judah
17:53
Homelessness - finally I was able to make it out. I got a voucher to live at a
place called the Tourist Hotel on 9th and Hennepin. Long time ago. Now I
think it's called a New Amsterdam something. It's above this bar, this disco
bar. I lived there a couple years ended up coming to the West Bank - I lived
on the West Bank eight years. In those eight years, I would walk from my
apartment to the co-op the old North Country Co-Op. And I would always
walk by this place called St. Martin's Table until one day I went to the club
and there used to be a big kiosk, with all these things on it and it said
"dishwasher wanted". I had things going on then. But I ok, I could use more
money. So I went in to apply for the dishwasher job. So I'm happily doing the
dishes. And then one day during a rush, one of the women of the cooks threw
me a recipe card and said, "Judah, could you please help?" So I looked, okay,
the cheese spread. I did it and I thought oh, you know, like, you know, this is
okay. And so then I slowly segued into making soups.
CJ
Chef Judah
18:56
And St. Martin's Table is important because that's where I met my future wife
to be for 10 years. And of course, my I wouldn't have had my child Esther, had
that not happened. But then of course, there's a side story because I know if
you know my wife, my ex wife, Karen had a traumatic brain injury. This was 18
- 19 years ago and I married her after her accident and I had to identify her at
the hospital, it's kind of, but that's when I became Esther's papa. And that was
one of the biggest joys of my life.
CJ
Chef Judah
19:27
So 15 years later, St. Martin's Table closes. And so um, and so I thought, what
should I do? Well, while I was at St. Martin's Table I had started a little thing
called Soup for You. And it was a small catering thing, just a one man
operation for doing soup suppers for churches and nonprofits usually So I had
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
10/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
operation for doing soup suppers for churches and nonprofits usually. So I had
that going on. So when St. Martin's closed, I wondered what was I going to do
with myself, I didn't want to sit by the phone, waiting for people to call me.
And then one day I was just walking in my neighborhood and there was a
CSA truck dropping off stuff. And I thought to myself,
CJ
Chef Judah
20:01
Hmm.... soup CSA, soup CSA. I wonder if that could work. You know, people
pay me money up front, they get 30 soups for 30 weeks. That was my slogan.
And then I thought okay, so I started the groundwork for that all summer. And
then I needed the space. And just by happenstance, Mary Laurel True was
friends with Pastor Justin. So that was six years ago. And Pastor Justin said,
Yeah, sure. So allowing me to use the the kitchen for my thing. So but I knew
something was up because when they gave me the contract to sign, I noticed
that they gave me a 96% discount on the rent.
Rebecca Hartwig
20:42
of the kitchen...
CJ
Chef Judah
20:43
right. And I thought, wow, you know, some What's going on here? Because
this was two years before Soup for You Cafe, I had no really, that wasn't in the
plans yet. I was just going to try to make an honest living. And actually, that
coincided with my marriage breaking up. So it was really important that I had
something going on. So pastor Justin, and even with Pastor Justin I started
the conversation about you know, can we have a free meal in the space, you
know, like once a mont?. And so he agreed, and then he talked to the
congregation they agreed, but then he left to go to Augsburg.
CJ
Chef Judah
21:21
Then we had an interim pastor, and there's been five pastors. So cut to the
chase, Pastor Mike Madsen was the one.
CJ
Chef Judah
21:30
When I told him my idea, he was very gung ho and understand he was young
and very eager And so he talked to the congregation they said okay and of
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
11/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
and very eager. And so he talked to the congregation they said, okay, and of
course it mophed from one meal a month to every day of the week.
CJ
Chef Judah
21:44
Yeah, five days a week. Yes. And now they started, where in the last two
months we had one Sunday that to join the the five days a week, Soup For
You community with the Bethany Sunday community, which sometimes never
met. So we start in a Sunday meal once in a while to get those two groups
together to say hi.
Rebecca Hartwig
22:04
So it started out as a for profit for you.
CJ
Chef Judah
22:08
Well, my little sole proprietorship. Yeah, for the first two years. It was about 70
people would come on a Friday or Saturday the pickup one quart jar or two
quart jars of soups. So yeah, but now since the cafe part, my little thing is kind
of come to the backburner pun intended. It's not altruistic. It makes me feel
good. I get a lot out of it, I really do.
Rebecca Hartwig
22:34
So you have to come in every day, pretty early to get soup started?
CJ
Chef Judah
22:37
Well, I get up between 530 and 630 every day. I try to make it out the door by
seven ish. But really my whole time, at St. Martin's Table was really training
for... I was younger then... I would come into St. Martin's at 6:30 a.m. I would
bake 12 loaves of bread, I would do a couple of desserts, I would do the soups
I would do spreads, salad dressings. I was able to do a lot. So I'm able to do a
lot and just I'd say three hours.
Rebecca Hartwig
23:04
Do you know what foods you're going to have to use?
CJ
Chef Judah
23:06
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
12/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Interesting question. It's a lot of times it's like splendid table, because we're
allowed to cull from the co-op my cull team, John and Sarah. I don't know
what they're bringing, or in the morning, when I come in, I really don't know
what's going to be there. So the first thing I look and see, what do we have.
But then you know, we have Chili Friday. So it's always going to be on you
know, chili on Friday, Get Curried Away Thursday, curry soup.
CJ
Chef Judah
23:33
So those days, but just the challenge to just make something out of what you
have. And that's really kind of purposeful in that it's a reflection of most of the
world. They get up in the morning, they might not have a lot of choices about
what they're going to eat or Yeah, once you've experienced hunger, you you
never forget it at all. And that's the fear and back of your mind all the time.
And sometimes I find myself hoarding things, it's like, "chill, Judah, chill" it's,
"you're going to have" ..."it's, okay". But it's just that mindset that you you
never lose.
CJ
Chef Judah
24:06
And then on top of that I have I really care about people eating. You know,
one question I ask people when they're leaving, like, oh, did you get enough?
I'm like, one quarter Jewish grandmother.
Rebecca Hartwig
24:20
Right... Oh, well, the reason I as a nursing instructor enjoy bringing my
community health students here is because I like them to see what's
happening in the community as far as health, and how Soup For You brings
health to people who come in off the streets. Not all homeless... But tell me
just a bit about the people who do come in to Soup For You..
CJ
Chef Judah
24:43
Right. Well, that's I called and I used to use that word a lot radical soup
kitchen, because we invite everyone, whether you own a bank, or whether you
come in with a plastic bag with all your belongings in it. But as you know, also
walking through the doors, a lot of men health issues, a lot of substance
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
13/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
abuse issues. And a lot of other ghosts that we don't know.
CJ
Chef Judah
25:07
Have people shot up in our bathrooms? Yes. Have people shot up next to the
church? Yes. Have people drank? Have people lost their minds here. Yeah.So
to be a volunteer at Soup For You. It's not like being at Denny's. I need my
volunteers to be discernful, to try to understand that we do get many broken
people walking in, and we're broken ourselves, but, you know...
CJ
Chef Judah
25:51
I can give you two examples that come to mind. And one is last year this
woman came in and she started to be a regular but would give her her soup.
And she would pour her bowl of soup into her plate and eat it that way. So we
don't judge we just noticed it's different than so after a few months, I decided
you know what? So I looked around, and I found an oval bowl. And so when
she came in one day, I serve her with the bowl of soup in that oval bowl, and I
brought it to her and I remember she cried. And she wasn't crying because
she was sad, but she was crying cuz it's like, wow, you noticed what I was
doing and you didn't judge one way or another. You just gave me a way to do
it better. So I'll always remember that. And she will tell people that story a lot
about how that happened that one day.
CJ
Chef Judah
26:34
Oh, there are so many stories more recently, a few months back. We're
working in the hubbub. And then I noticed one gentleman, a youngster blond
hair, blue eyes, just standing there. just staring straight. And so I go to this
gentleman I started you know how you doing welcome and, and he couldn't
speak very well at all. He was struggling. So we just guided him to a chair, sat
him down. And then we just brought him food. But it he's someone that was
just break your heart because he had motor skills problems. He couldn't speak
very well. And he would come in on top of his all his issues he would come in
with garbage he had picked up in the street. And last week, he came in with a
dead baby bird in his hand. So there's a lot of dynamics going on. And then I
remember one day, he was going to leave and he was just standing there.
And I said, Do you want to hug? And he indicated Yeah. So I gave him a hug.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
14/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
And so I started to do that. But I noticed when I hugged him, I felt really
drained. So I don't do it so much now. But that's just an example.
CJ
Chef Judah
27:50
This isn't like a place that you're going to find anywhere else. There's so much
going on here. And we try to you know, if somebody comes in with sandals in
December that we rush around trying to find shoes for them, things like that,
you know, it's not just about a lot, it takes a lot. for that moment, when you
get your plate and your bowl of soup. It takes a lot to get to that point. But it's
not just about that. It's very all encompassing, holistic, very holistic. And we
get to know people's ways and idiosyncrasies and quirkinesses and we and
there are a lot of needy people out there, I'm needy myself, but we recognize
this a lot of needy people. And to some it might seem like it's annoying, but
you just have to understand that's really they just want attention and love and
just acknowledgement or authentication, that you're a human being, you
know, that's why I have my peoples cooler. It's kind of like a little food shelf.
But we don't ask people to fill out forms. Shelf ID I've always wondered about
that. Why do we even have to prove to a food shelf that "what you're a
human being and you're hungry?" Why? Why do we need to dehumanize
people further? You know...
Rebecca Hartwig
29:03
Would you say that? A lot of your guests are our regulars that come? And feel
this is kind of a home?
CJ
Chef Judah
29:09
Oh, most definitely. (During) the polar vortex? People came, our numbers
stayed up high.
CJ
Chef Judah
29:16
Also just this morning as an example, we opened the door and in 15 minutes,
we had 20 people. So people do look forward. And that means a lot to me,
because we are literally the farthest outpost of a free meal. So the fact that
people do come in... I get a lot of joy out of, of course, people eating good
healthy food, but I get a joy out of hearing the snippets of 12 conversations. I
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
15/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
want people to converse. You know, at St. Martin's Table, it was books, food
conversation. Here it's food and conversation. But just the idea that people
are interacting in that way and making friendships that they wouldn't have
made - relationships. That means a lot to me.
Rebecca Hartwig
29:57
I've never been here without having a good conversation with somebody, and
leaving feeling like I've really gained something, myself.
CJ
Chef Judah
30:05
Well, as I say, you know, the old show was there's 1000 stories in the Naked
City. We've got a lot of them down there. And just over the four years, there's
been so many stories and a lot of, you know, just like joys, you know... We're
trying to get into a house, or a place. You know, but then also we have lost
like..., he started to come like maybe three and a half years ago, he would
come. And he always sat by himself at first because he was sober. And that's
the price you pay for being sober, you have to stay away from people. So he
came and got to know each other joke and very polite. Then he didn't come
for a while then he showed back up but he was with a group of people, and
he wasn't sober. But fine. We feed people as long as you're not disruptive or
hurting anybody. Then there came a time though, I had to ask him to leave.
And as I usually do, I never banish people forever. I will say one month, two
months. I gave him a little slip of paper, and had a date on it, which was two
months from now. And I said, you know, "I love you, come back for two
months". Because I live three blocks away and I have a huge window and just
been in my neighborhoods, I would see him sleeping on bus benches or, or
drunk or one day I saw him with two black eyes. You know, it killed me inside.
But it's it was unavoidable. So it was the Sunday before the Monday that he
was he could come back and he was by the highway with the sign. And he
saw me and he goes, you know, "Chef Judah tomorrow, right? tomorrow!". Of
course. I was like, wow, you know, I said "yes, tomorrow", you know. So then
that Monday morning, I come into work early, it was a rainy stormy morning.
And I always look at the sides of the building first to see if anybody's... you
know. But then I noticed on the one of the awnings there where people do
sleep, there was (name edited out).
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
16/21
8/15/2019
CJ
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Chef Judah
31:51
And so, to me, not only did he keep that little slip of paper, but, he wanted so
much to come back here that he was hugging our building in the midst of a
rainstorm. We spent that night there. So you know, I mean, that struck me
inside. it's ... how can it not affect you? So he came back. And.... he knew we
would welcome him back. He came and he always had a good friend named
Dan. And they were like this. They were combat Marines in the Vietnam War.
And they've been together since. They came together. And then one day a
rumor started that somebody had OD'd. And it was somebody from Soup For
You. Didn't know, for a week or so. And then finally, one day Dan did come.
And Dan said, You know, I woke up one morning and I thought that he had
gone off whatever. It wasn't until a couple days later that Dan gets wakened
up by sirens and ambulances and... he was just in the bushes a few feet away.
CJ
Chef Judah
32:56
So he was born on the Rosebud Reservation, he was adopted. And he had a
hard life but...
CJ
Chef Judah
33:05
so we lose some. And the danger really of all this is getting to know people. I
don't mean that as a bad thing, but once you get to know people, you invest
your heart in them. And you worry about them and look for them. Is he still
alive?
CJ
Chef Judah
33:22
So he hit all of us hard, you know...
CJ
Chef Judah
33:28
So that's just one little story... of what happens.
Rebecca Hartwig
33:32
Hmm... thank you for sharing that.
CJ
Chef Judah
33:33
But then there's a lot of moments where it's like "Judah you can help
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
17/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
But then there s a lot of moments where it s like Judah, you can help
everybody".
Rebecca Hartwig
33:40
So what would you think, would you like to see with the future, because this
has come a long ways and four years?
CJ
Chef Judah
33:47
Yes, yeah. Yeah, the first year we did 10,000 bowls, and now we're at 71,000
bowls. So we've exponent... not exponentially, but we're growth, growth
growth.
CJ
Chef Judah
33:58
I just want it to continue, I want to expand our services in a way. In some
ways, I mean, food is still the main... food and providing a safe space. You
know, we have that guest book. And I think I might have shown you I mean,
there's all kinds of love in that guestbook but, the one little statement that
really struck me was, it just said, "I feel safe here". Savannah, I remember this
very frail gal who has moved on. But I thought that's really that's what we
want.
CJ
Chef Judah
34:30
I use the term 'all the rainbow' and that's purposely 'all the rainbow' should
be. We not just welcome but we invite people to come in and you know, not
just that we wait for you to come in. And welcome you will do that, but just
wanted to be a safe place. And it's kind of an experiment. can it happen? Can
it really? Can you have all these different people cohabitate in the space for
just even two and a half hours, but so far, it seems to be working okay.
CJ
Chef Judah
34:58
Yeah, there was a shame, though, for all those years that that room just
stayed quiet and dark and cold, not used. And that was really what was
getting to me was, because I walk around my neighborhood, I see, just in my
neighborhood, just people could benefit. Yeah, the need is there. And not just
that I recognize people from the old days, "wow, you're still alive?". But, you
k
Th
l d
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
h
h
h
bl
d
h
d
'
18/21
8/15/2019
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
know... The people down there that have problems and issues... they don't
want to be like that. You know, they don't. And so there's always that
sympathy or empathy or compassion. That you know, they don't want to be
like that. Of course not. But you feel so much that...
Rebecca Hartwig
35:43
I noticed nothing but respect, compassion... it's top shelf-shelf soup, I'll tell
you that!
CJ
Chef Judah
35:51
Well, keep coming, you'll find some losers, 'cuz last week, I didn't have hardly
anything to work with. You know, one of the biggest compliments my
daughter ever gave me was you know, she goes, "Papa! You're able to make
something out of nothing".
CJ
Chef Judah
36:06
I thought Yeah, that's a good thing, Esther.
Rebecca Hartwig
36:11
Well, thank you so much for your time and...
CJ
Chef Judah
36:22
This is my daughter, Esther (shows me her picture on his phone).
Rebecca Hartwig
36:22
Oh, oh, she's beautiful!. Oh, my goodness! How old is she now?
CJ
Chef Judah
36:22
Oh, 21, plus, yeah. She's Chinese, of course. My wife, my ex-wife adapted her
before we were married, but I adopted Esther legally.
Rebecca Hartwig
36:30
She's beautiful.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
19/21
8/15/2019
CJ
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
Chef Judah
36:30
Yeah, she's my... it's kind of an irony of all things. You know, she's born and...
we we're born 10,000 miles apart - I was born in North Africa - she's in
China. And then we, our worlds intersect here. And how unlikely is that? Yeah,
but she gives me something that I never had. And that's unconditional love.
That's what we all want.
Rebecca Hartwig
36:53
Beautiful... Thank you, Chef Judah.
CJ
Chef Judah
36:53
Yeah, you're welcome.
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
20/21
8/15/2019
https://otter.ai/s/20309c3a00a3412cbd4a04914782ba4b
Interview with Chef Judah - edited.mp3
21/21
Show less
Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities... Show more
Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Barbara Sabino Pina
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in
higher education. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm an assistant professor of nursing. Could you
please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:22
My name is Barbara Sabino Pina, I use her pronouns, and I am a third year at Augsburg
University, studying biochemistry with a minor in leadership studies.
Katie Clark 00:35
Great. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:45
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:46
Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
I would graduate hopefully in a year. So in spring of 2023.
Katie Clark 00:57
Great. And so can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? You mentioned
your majors, so kind of what you're currently studying, and maybe what you hope to do when
you graduate.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 01:13
I was born in Venezuela. So my first years of school having my native country in Venezuela. I
graduated actually from high school there. But because the education system works differently
in my country then here. I had to go through another year of high school here. So I graduated
from Burnsville High School, after doing basically my last year here, and I decided to attend
Augsburg University. I am currently a third year I'm studying biochemistry. And I also have a
minor in leadership studies. And what I hope to do with this is that I, since I was really young I
always enjoy medicine, and like, the biomedical field. So even though, you know, things can
change, and my decisions also can change with time, at the moment, I want to be a physician
scientist. So my plans are to apply for medical school on next cycle. And I mean, like, the cycle
of 2023. So I hope what I want to do with this is that I really enjoy working on a lab. And I really
enjoy going through the whole answer the question and tried to solve a problem with the
research that is done. But I also like the patient interactions. I also like to talk with people, you
know, having interactions with them, talking with them, understanding what's going on, what's
the problem? Or how, in which ways can I use my, my skills or anything that I know to help
them? And how can they also like, I can learn from them, and develop as well as an individual.
So I think so far, that's the plan.
Katie Clark 03:17
Being in the medical world myself, I think that that is much needed. So I'm excited to hear that.
So just thinking about your time at Augsburg have the concepts of the citizen, professional,
civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills been discussed in your classes or programs
that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 03:41
I would say a couple of them, not necessarily in my classes, because as I mentioned, I am
biochemistry major. So a lot of times wouldn't really like we wouldn't mention those things, but
because of my minor and because I decided to do a Leadership Studies minor. When I took LST
296,that was student development, leadership class, I did talk a little bit about what it means to
be like a citizen and like what it means to have like different intersectionalities of identities.
And so we kind of like talk a little bit of that, in the surface, I wouldn't be able to say that I like
an expert, or like I understand completely the concepts. But I also have to say that I am part of
the LEAD Fellows Program here at Augsburg. And so through that I did learn more about civic
civic engagement and basically how to, like connect with the expert community, but also with
the community around Augsburg. And basically what it means to like a create community and
how to engage and how to organize, mobilize people. I think I did have a little bit of connection
through that, but it's probably because of the decision that I made to get involved in the
program that I decided to be part of. So yeah, That's kind of what I would say.
Katie Clark 05:02
So what experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities, and you kind of answered this, but
maybe ask it again and see if anything else comes up, to learn, reflect and integrate lessons
across coursework and community engaged learning.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 05:19
As I mentioned, yes, I mentioned a couple of those activities. I also would add, when I was a
first year, I applied to be part of the Emerging Leaders Program here at Augsburg University. I
think that was one of the best decisions that I made at the beginning, because I learned a lot
about myself in that class. But I also got to meet a lot of people that kind of like I continued to
have relationships with, through all these three years that I've been at Augsburg. And that
connected me with all their staff members, when they actually one person that I met through
the Emerging Leaders Program connected me with LaToya, which is basically the director
manager for the LEAD Fellows that that's how I ended up applying for it. So I think the
Emerging Leaders Programs was like the first door that I got to be like, the first that I enter, to
get through all my other leadership opportunities are after that, I got to be an orientation
leader, and then an AugSem leader, and then I got other positions that are expert, like student
program assistant, and eventually the LEAD intern position. So I would say those are kind of
like really meaningful positions that I had that so far.
Katie Clark 06:33
So I guess for me, I'm wondering like being in the biology, or they might refer to STEM courses,
is there a way that could that you envision things like civic engagement or civic skills could
better be weaved in that curriculum?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 06:51
Even though I don't have a specific answer for that, in terms of like ideas, or how to do it, I
think we should try to find ways to do it. I think the STEM fields are really wonderful. And I
wouldn't be a STEM, if I didn't enjoy it, or I didn't like what I'm doing. I really enjoy it. I really
like it. But sometimes I wish there were more ways to connect it with the real world, not just on
that on a textbook, or just based on what it's supposed to be for the exam. But a little bit more
like, again, teaching to this because this is helpful for you and just in your career. But let's see
how we can use this information to create things that can help the environment for example,
like biology majors, they know a lot about, like, they take a lot of environmental causes, like
how can we use this concept to actually create something better for more sustainable for on
campus, or more sustainable for the whole community at Augsburg? Oh, I think like probably
like, what I try to say is more like, I would love it to be more applicable. Or like would there
would be like some type of project instead of an exam. And then you have to the project to
basically find a way to use this concepts outside of the classroom, or something like that. That
kind of like would bring all the critical thinking skills for the students. And also, it would be more
engaging and more enjoyable. I think.
Katie Clark 08:14
Thank you for that. So in what ways has civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepared you to
think about your professional role or civic leadership? Whether it's currently or when you move
on to med school and into your chosen profession?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:32
I'm just to make sure I understand the question Is it like how has Augsburg prepared me more
like in my career field basically?
Katie Clark 08:40
Yeah. So do you see some of those civic learning experiences prepare you as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:47
Yes, I believe so. I think more than what I have learned in the like my major itself, it's more of
the things I'm getting involved with like in organizations all those positions that I got through
the years, my current position as a LEAD fellow or LEAD intern. I think all those positions
prepare me more in the aspects of yeah, my classes did a lot of the work on like knowledge,
like okay, I know how to have this lab skills, for example, but my leadership opportunities help
me to okay, how do I express my ideas? I have all this knowledge, but how do I actually send it
to people in a way that they can understand? How can I have a conversation with someone that
looks different? Someone that has a different background, different ethnicity? How can I have
conversations with people have different experiences than me? How to be comfortable being
uncomfortable? You know, like, like having uncomfortable conversations or things that aren't
usually talked about, um, how do we prepare for an interview even for things like that, just like
how to talk how to express correctly my skills to say what I want to say? Just all those kinds of
things that might seem like, I don't know, little or little things that are still important, and that
can tell a lot of your character and your personality, I think I learned a lot outside of the
classroom. And through those leadership positions. Of course, I made a lot of mistakes on the
way, like for sure, at the beginning, I would be thinking so much just to say the same sentence,
or I would freak out in front of people, because I just, you know, public speaking can be nerve
racking sometimes. But because I keep continue doing it and putting myself on those, you
know, positions that kind of helped me to feel more comfortable and end up applying for more
and wanting to do more. And at the end, I kind of found what I wanted to do, you know, even
when, because I decided, for example, to be part of research my first year, probably wouldn't
even know that I want to be a physician scientist. So I think like getting out there and get out of
my comfort zone, through this leadership positions helped me a lot to discover me as myself,
as a person.
Katie Clark 11:08
Just sounds like you just, it's who you are, that's really brought me down this path. And that's
so beautiful. Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement
experience to affect your decision making or be an agent of change as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:25
I would say yes, my first years at Augburg, I learned through those like civic engagement
positions, like an orientation leader and AugSem leader. As part of campus life a student
program assistant, I learned a lot of like different communities and about the Augsburg
community and outside of Augburg as well. And after a while, not just in those positions, I got
to use those skills. But after I wanted to do something that had to do more with my career that
is medicine, I ended up applying for a direct care professional position. And I believe that one of
the reasons why I got this position was because I was able to show through work, the work that
I did the past that I was able to work with people and do what it's needed to do for the decision.
And so I believe that everything that I've learned so far has made me like a capable student
and a capable just professional in general, to perform the tasks that I should be doing like for
the physicians for the my career path that I've chosen. Because my the medicine even though
it has to do a lot with people think of science, you know, everything just science, and you're
supposed to learn so many things you study and study, study, don't get out. A lot of it is people
interaction, you know, like, understanding how to, like, understand what's going on in the body
and like, understand how you can talk with your patient or how to understand what's going on
in their families. Because sometimes, ah, a lot of the things that happen, they will be like, did
you do this? And they're like, No, I didn't, but then you like, ask another person is like, no,
actually, they did. And I think that kind of trust comes from, if you actually show yourself your
humanity. And like, with honesty, and they are capable to think like, okay, I can trust my
doctor, you know, instead of this person that just gonna knock on me and say things is like, oh,
no, this person is actually trying to do something good for me. Um, so I think I don't know, I feel
like in general, all the positions that I have so far, and a couple of things I've mentioned, they
have prepared me to be a better professional in the future.
Katie Clark 13:53
Well, it sounds like you're very relational, too, which is so important to some of these concepts
and practice too. So this question is one that's a little dense. So let me say so what connections
if any, do you see among professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 14:18
Actually, I think that's a really good question. It's kind of interesting, because through my
through the summer, before my third year, I had this moment in which I didn't I was like,
wondering, like, what do I want to do with my life because I have all these things that I enjoy.
But I thought I have to pick one thing. I cannot just if I'm a leader, I cannot be a doctor and I'm
a doctor, I can't you know, I because we have a lot of stereotypes, that when you do
something, you only can do that. And I think during in that summer, I just took a lot of time for
myself and reflect on everything I've done so far. And what do I want to do? And like, what
makes me happy? Like, what do I enjoy doing, because I want to continue doing that, that I
enjoy. And I think it's, I was really grateful to understand and notice that in my professional
career, I want to be a physician scientist, right? So I want to be hired in a lab, I want to be able
to get all these questions, answer I want to be able to, you know, provide something in the
future that would help to an invention, or some type of technology that would improve
someone else's health. And then on my vocation, I noticed that I love teaching, for example, I
actually really enjoy talking with other people about the knowledge that I have are acquired,
because I think so many things are just so cool. And I'm like, I want to share it. So I noticed that
I love teaching, I love talking, I love communicating. There's this other side of it, that I'm can
can connect, even though I didn't notice before, like it actually can connect to my profession.
And then the civic engagement part portion of it. Personally, I am really passionate about a
specific community, which are the undocumented students and DACA because I am an
immigrant. So as an immigrant, I did I face a moment in which I also was undocumented, and I
faced a lot of challenges. And it was hard, especially as a student, because I wanted to have a
future, but I didn't know how to, without, you know, any type of documents that can help me to
apply for things. And so that saved that that first connection to civic engagement through my
own struggle help me to be like, think of, I actually want to do something in the future that
helped me to help others, not just like, not something that has my own self interest, you know,
and that can help others in the process. And even though these three things might seem like,
let's think about triangle or something, or they might see, like, so far away from each other,
they actually I feel like they connect, because I can still continue doing my work as a physician
scientist, and probably create some type of, I don't know, foundation in the future to help future
doctors that are actually undocumented. Right. Daca in the same way, oh, this process needs
me to communicate with people need me to do research about people like searching for people
that are interested in helping me in this specific issue. Um, and I still, like I have, can have
conversations, I can teach others and others can teach me in the process. So I personally feel
like I don't I all of them relate in a way and I'm grateful that I know I'm capable of noticing that
and that I'm because I think that's what's gonna guide me eventually to a better like, a better
and happy life, doing what I enjoy to do. So I hope that answer the question, I'm not sure if it.
Katie Clark 18:12
It completely does. And I would think as you enter into these systems to you might see yourself
thinking about how to change the systems within which you very much spoke to as well. So
wonderful. Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that
specific term? So if so, how would you describe that? Or explain it to others? If you see yourself
as a civic or citizen professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:44
I would say yes, more in the working kind of like still becoming, you know, like trained, I think
we can always improve. But I would say yes, because at least for me, what it means is that I am
a leader, that it's trying to create some type of change, that it's going to help others to succeed
in anything that it entails. And I'm trying to do it not just, I'm not just talking about it, but I'm
actually trying to use my own skills, and all the work that I've done so far to make that happen.
So that makes them more like I don't know if that's where the professional part comes in, like
more like instead of just you thinking about what to do with are you actually getting together
with other people or doing some work about it, or being part of a program that helps you to do
some work about it. But I would say that I feel like I am, just that it's more like on the working
process. I still feel like there's a lot to learn many concepts to grasp as well. Well, um, and
develop as a better citizen as a better individual as a better, I don't know, person in team
player. If I were to explain this word to someone, I would probably say like, as long as you are,
you have passion to do some type of work for others and for yourself like something that you
have some type of self interest in, in the process, you are gathering, like you're organizing
people and you're mobilizing people, then I think that would make you a civic, citizen
professional.
Katie Clark 20:43
What's interesting, this is my third interview so far. And I really hear you and others explain
before you were probably even introduced to these concepts that you were doing civic agency
and being a citizen professional. So I'm wondering, do you think that there's better
terminology? Or have you heard of other terminology to really name some of these things that
you are just doing? Or do these concepts, the way they're described, resonate with you?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 21:17
I would say, I don't know if I'm the right person to say there's better or not. But I think there is
maybe easier ways to explain the type of work that it's done. Since I feel like a lot of people can
be a little intimidated by how it sounds, they might feel like, what they hear is like, oh, no, that
sounds like too much. And I feel like I've done nothing, or I've done so little. And you know,
sometimes a lot of people tend to humble themselves a lot, or more. So I think there's probably
easier ways to maybe get across this concept. So other people can actually identify more
themselves with it. Because personally, I feel like if a few years ago, you asked me the same
question. I would have been first, like, what is this? And second? Oh, I don't think I am, like,
capable or I am not. Yeah, like worth do actually just say that type of title in front of me,
because it sounds like a big word. Um, so that's personally why I feel I probably think there's
like maybe, I don't know, a specific won't be the better word to say maybe. I don't know, I some
type of leader, maybe some are in the leader to want something in there might help to make it
more understanding more, yeah, more practical and more understanding for other people. But I
can see how it can be a tricky word to use around specifically people of my age. Because I think
as part of the LEAD fellows, for example, I see a lot of people doing great things and like
working on things that are really like, awesome. And I know there's so passionate about it. But
when you ask them what they do, sometimes they just like, Oh, they're like, Oh, I just this little
thing, you know, it's not big deal. And I'm like, What are you talking about? This is awesome.
But I think it's just people are not used to like thinking of just big words when they refer to
themselves.
Katie Clark 23:16
I completely agree. So thank you, I appreciate you confirming that. Is there anything you wish
you have you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you haven't yet?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
I would say probably taking a little bit more care of myself. I think I learned how to do it. But I
think there's just like a journey. It's like a long term thing that you kind of learn on the way. But
I wish there could have been I think there's more now, but at the beginning, I feel like it could
have been helpful to have more mental health type of work in the classroom, more
accommodating, suggestions and modes for all the classrooms, all the classes, um, maybe like
they have like in the chapel, they do sometimes people attend. And they have like a specific
speaker that talks just for those 20 minutes about some type of topic. I wish like in those
chapel hours, they would like talk. I don't know how little mental health sessions or, yeah, I
think probably I could have been more beneficiated by more time to think of myself and be
more reflective than think of like go go go go and do do do do. I eventually learned you know,
but I wish Augsburg has been pushing more through that side of it. Does that make sense?
Katie Clark 24:54
That's so important. Thank you for mentioning that. As far as your career development do you
feel like there's any other opportunities that you wish that Augsburg offered? And there's no no
one's gonna get this is just more me asking you in informal and no one's gonna get get you in
trouble for answering the question. It's just some kind of wondering how do you feel about your
opportunities to be ready for your future career?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 25:21
I think that I'm not sure it's like I would I credit to Augsburg just because I feel I had to do more
with me, looking for those opportunities, and staff and professors that were willing to, like,
answer those questions for me. So I think I would like to say, like, yes, it was Augsburg and the
people that I met, like, I made those connections with where an expert at what I want to say is
more due to those people like those staff, those great staff members, those great faculty
members, and of course, me going and looking for those people that were able to help me that
they were able to provide me with like opportunities and say, like, they saw my my capabilities,
my skills, and they say, oh, Barbara, I think you should apply for this, or there's this program
going on in the summer, or there is this, I don't know, class in the spring that it's going to help
you with data analysis, right? Simple. I think those kind of like suggestions, and those type, like
people that mentor me, you know, mentor me to go in like this. I know, this is what you want.
And I know this relates to that. So go ahead, do it. I think thanks to them, I feel more more
capable and better prepared for the future, whatever that means.
Katie Clark 26:47
Excellent. Well, is there anything you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:52
I would say maybe this is not related specifically to civic engagement or anything. But, I
mentioned a little bit how I'm an immigrant, and I, I was born actually, in Venezuela, I have only
like three and a little bit like three years and a few months in the country. And I know, there's
many other people that are living or had similar circumstances like me. And I think at the
beginning, I had this thought that I was not able to do a lot of things, because of my
documentation, because of just like the situation that I was going through. But if anyone else
out there, it's having the same situation, and they think they can't do it, or that it's just hard, or
that they feel like there's so many doors keep closing in front of them. I would encourage
people to keep trying and just to keep looking for the thing to the right people, like there's
gonna be people are gonna be like, No, you can't do it, or that's too hard, or I don't know
anything about that. But there's gonna be people that are going to tell you, I don't know about
it, but I can try to help you. And there's gonna be people like, Oh, yes, absolutely, we can work
on this. So just keep knocking on those doors. And keep, like, don't feel this courage. Just
because someone say no. I just feel like I want to make sure that people, whoever is listening
to this, or whoever I get to, in contrary to my life, I can make, like, tell them that everything is
possible as long as they're willing to work for it. And as long as they are trying to find what
works for them, because I can give you an advice. But what worked for me doesn't mean
they're going to work for you. So just make sure that you're keep, keep trying ways until you
find the one that works for you. And, yeah, just be yourself. Enjoy the moment. I keep doing the
things I enjoy doing.
Katie Clark 29:00
Thank you. I mean, that's so beautiful. And so moving. And so thank you for that. So that
concludes our formal interview. So I want to thank you for your time
Show less
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about i... Show more
Sabrin Gadow 0:01
Hi, this is Sabrin Gadow. I'm interviewing Ash Farah. Can you introduce yourself?
Ash Farah 0:06
Hi, my name is Ash Farah.
My pronouns are he/him/his and I attend Augsburg.
Sabrin Gadow 0:14
Can you tell us about your childhood?
Ash Farah 0:16
Oh, umm so I --- What about it?
Sabrin Gadow 0:24
Yeah for example were you born in America?
Ash Farah 0:30
Oh no, I'm so I was born in Gadow, which is between the Borderlands of Somalia, Kenya and
Ethiopia. I was born in a village there with my mom. And we came to America actually through
--- I forget what exact humanitarian organization it was, but it was through them and we got to
re-located over to the United States.
Sabrin Gadow 0:52
That’s nice!
Okay, so what was your family like?
Ash Farah 1:00
Well, I'm the oldest I'm like, I'm the oldest son.
I also I come from a relatively small family for a Somali family. My siblings are Rahma, Ayub,
and Mohammed and I'm the oldest of them. I also have a stepbrother and stepsister, but they
were much older than I was so.
Sabrin Gadow 1:20
So what was your neighborhood growing up like?
Ash Farah 1:28
It was very Somalia. I grew up around a lot of somali people and my just you know, generally
very low income, we grew up on section eight and you know, like, there was no Eid gifts. The
Eid gifts were that you got to eat that day. You know that type of teas. Like it's pretty, pretty
simple.
Sabrin Gadow 1:40
Yeah. How's it like growing up in a Somali neighborhood, was it Muslim majority?
Ash Farah 1:47
Yeah, it was definitely Muslim majority, like Somalis are like 99.9% Sunni Muslim so yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 1:55
Yeah did you like that? Was it the sense of community? Did it make you feel safer? Was it just
was a nice for your mom?
Ash Farah 2:00
Yeah, it was very nice for my mom because she was a single mom. My dad left two years after
we like relocated. So it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other Somali women. And
it was very nice for her to be surrounded by other members of the community and from our tribe
and stuff like that, because they helped with like, childcare, getting a job, all the things that
make it really hard to relocate to a foreign country with children. You know, like, it's very hard.
So she didn't feel alone. She obviously grew up very Muslim and found solace in the masjid
and, you know, we went Dugsi [Islamic school] every like, I think, every Wednesday, Saturday,
Sunday, and on Friday and Sunday. Yeah, if my mom could afford it, she would send us even
more. But she's like, you know, and that kind of thing. She just really really loved Islam. And it
was very clear because everybody around me loved Islam.
Unknown Speaker 3:00
Yeah, you said growing up in Islam. How did growing up in Minnesota a sort of shape you? Do
feel like you've been on different path and if you grew up in this area that was so highly
concentrated in Somalis as well as Muslims?
Ash Farah 3:12
It's because of the like, certain. Like, I've met a lot of like, Somali queers across the world, UK,
London. I'm just friends, even Toronto, like just all these places that all these people, you know,
ran off to, and I think Minneapolis causes a certain socio political background that allows for it to
be very different than if I grew up in let's say, Denmark and was Muslim, there's less of a social
pressure to be more like ultra conservative in your interpretation of Islam. Like there are people
who have no problems with like, people not wearing Hijabs. You know like not wearing
traditional garments and stuff like that, at all. Umm just because of the you know, of the mixing
of culture there? Also because there's different Muslims, and it isn't just like the majority of
Muslim population there isn't Somali only. It's like there's Arabs, there’s people from Palestine. It
was, more you know, black Muslims, there’s you know converts and stuff like that. There was
like more diversity so that causes a little more lax opinions when it comes to like groupthink in
the community and stuff like that. So there's less, I don’t want to say less prejudice because
prejudice exists consistently throughout whatever society you go to but less rigidity I’d say.
Sabrin Gadow 4:38
You said the term ran off to what do you mean by that? Either term run off as in, like, places
they went off to?
Ash Farah 4:44
Oh yeah … Yeah! Like, um, you know, where people have ran off to. Like, you know,
displacement from the Civil War, so it makes sense for most people to have fled to the nearest
place that they could flee too. For example there’s Somali Queers that are living in Yemen or
Kenya, or Denmark and UK or Toronto and here. All very different in their experiences because
of the different environments that they are growing up in.
Sabrin Gadow 5:07
So you use a term Groupthink when referring to this close knit community of relations to find
that sense of this my community and stuff like that. How do you feel group think affects people
who aren't like, how do I phrase this in a nice way, people who aren’t like the typical idea of
what Somali Muslim should be?
Ash Farah 5:30
Mmmh, To put it lightly, I've learned a lot of things in my life, which is, if you go against the
majority opinion on faith based issues, people respond very emotionally very, like personally
and personally attacked because this is something that is very, very, close to their heart and
they think this is right. Particularly it was harmful for me growing up because of being a child
and stuff like that. So people see you as saveable, as fixable, and they don't want you to go
through what they see it as the worst punishment on earth for all of eternity. So they want to
help the this kid out by any means necessary and sometimes those means are violent.
Sometimes they're ostracizing. Sometimes they're, you know, like conversion therapy. So by
any means necessary to help another like member of your community out. And I am at the age
where now I know that it comes from this place -- it comes from like a kind of a good hearted
place despite the impact that had on me growing up. And it makes sense for people especially
here in Minneapolis, especially in the somali population, and the older Somali population here in
Minneapolis to cling on to their faith even more so than they would back home because they
literally had to give up so much of themselves and Minneapolis is vastly different than where
they're growing up. I like had this conversation with my mom and she was explaining how much
she missed she missed sugar canes and how much she missed like the masjid that she would
go to and like just the how vastly different growing up in Somalia versus living here in this
tundra! with no sun, like, just off. Even the food's off! All this, so it's very understandable, they
would cling on to their faith even harder, like even more strict because that’s one of the only
things they got to keep. Not their houses and no they're --- like my mom witnessed, you know
soldiers break down Hawo Tako [Statue] not even their culture when it came down to it. You
know, so they have this one very, very, tangible thing that they can hold on to and to see their
kids either rejecting from that path or from their particular interpretations very, very, very harmful
to them. And it makes sense. It does. But it doesn't make it right, but yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 7:50
Yeah. Such a nice way to think of it.
Ash Farah 8:00
For example, my mom had this first incident like the moment we got here, like of course, we
landed in New York. We're on this escalator and she was holding me and a man decided to
yank her hijab. And this is, like yeah.
Sabrin Gadow 8:10
So sorry!
Ash Farah 8:12
And it was, you know, it was post 9/11. My mom was wearing a huge Jilbab, which is, you know,
like, you know, she's 6’1’. So she sticks out of the crowd and stuff. Like that this guy got a rise
out of it. He was drinking too much at the airport. And I fell, tumbled on all these steps on this
escalator and my mom, a) has never seen an escalator. And that was her first like, initiation into
American culture, which is very violent and very against your faith. So what people do when
there's an opposition and an oppression, is they cling on to it even more. And over time, I got to
see my very, very liberal mother become more and more of a literalist, when it came to the
Koran, and when it came to faith and stuff like that, because of just the concentration of the way
American bigotry is against Muslims in particular. Where else you might not see that as much.
Like you do see some islamophobia but it does not come off as directly violent as American
Islamophobia is.
Sabrin Gadow 9:14
American Islamophobia is truly something different. You mentioned something about growing up
with a liberal mother and her changing into more of a literalist, because of the community she
was apart of and the community that she held ties to. How did that feel growing up and going
into somali spaces and having different ideals and values based on you?
Ash Farah 9:33
Oh, it was very, very difficult.
I was a young child, ahhh, weird child. I did not speak till the age of eight. I just had all these like
external issues going on in my life that my mom had to deal with having a kid that had needs
that needed to be met like I needed a speech therapist and it was a mysterious came --- due to
an illness I had as a kid. Just had no answers and had to navigate the system by herself in this
country by herself. So, I watched her become this very laissez faire, like, mother of like, you can
play with Barbies, you can play with GI Joes. And you can, like watch. We used to watch john,
john wayne westerns, because she used to love those together and stuff like that and watch her
become very, very anti-westernization and more like faith based and like literalist Islam, stuff like
that. Like I want my children to be hafiz. I want them to go to Dugsi all the time because the
counter effect would be like they'd end up like the kids in my neighborhood, the black kids she
saw in the neighborhood who were dealing with socio economic issues that like lead them down
certain paths. So she really honned that in.
Ash Farah 10:56
Of course, it was very unlucky for me because I'm a trans man. So I was born female and
assigned female at birth. And I was trying to communicate that with no words to my mom. So it
wasn't very --- AND to my peers who obviously picked it up really quickly. It's kind of hard to like,
not pick up on that, especially since the more literalist interpretations of Islam have stricter like
gender roles and gender guidelines. So it quickly became very, very hard for me to focus on
Fiqh and like learning about Islam, and going to Dugsi and stuff like that when there was literally
a partition, deciding if I was like, what roles I would have to play and do all that. And it was very,
very, very difficult because I felt like there was something wrong with me. That my entire
community was trying to help me because I was flawed and broken and a burden onto my mom.
Ash Farah 12:00
My mom would get a lot of help and support because people would see, you know, her like,
weird kid and stuff like that. So it was a mutual. Like I saw the benefit of that, but also meant
that through egging on of various community members, my mom, so shovel me into Quran
Saar, which is like people reading Quran over, you know, children usually have, you know,
illnesses or like something wrong with them or just or being seen as possessed. So I dealt with
that. And it got increasingly worse, because my mom started to notice she had more of a
community around her. And that’s what she really needed as a single mom who literally just
could not afford much, and it led me down to having a really, really harsh ‘bout with Islam.
Sabrin Gadow 12:58
You talked a little bit about you being a transman, do identify with any other communities?
Ash Farah 13:02
I---- this is a par, or a question that I get a lot. I really do identify as being Somali. Identify with
the muslim identity. I identify as trans identify, I identify as LGBT, and I don't see how, I know a
lot of people see that as like in, incomprehensibly, untetherable like you cannot tether those
identities together, they cannot exist in a human being. I even get it from somali people like you
are either Muslim or your gay, or you can't be trans and Muslim. You know, like Somalis don't
have gay people or something like that. That's white people shit, and all that kind of stuff. But I
really truly hold, hold all those things. So.
Sabrin Gadow 13:57
So beautiful. You hear a lot about Somali hate being gay. But we definitely do hear something
about Somalis queers, who don’t have faith and Somali Queers who do have faith.
Who talk about feeling like they couldn't be somali and clear and also have Muslim as well. Do
you feel like you fit into that? In the sense that -- I’ll rephrase the question, how does it feel to be
ostracized in multiple communities and do you feel that you had to build a community from that?
As in a sense where it's like being a Somali Queer openly, like a visibly queer person, trans
person, and also living with that as well. But how do you feel because your ostracized in those
that small intersections.
Ash Farah 14:42
Right? Like I felt since I couldn't find family and I couldn't find ummah basically, I couldn't find
community in Islam, because of you know, various interpretations of the faith deciding that I
could not --- that my existence was non congruent with their form of Islam.
I decided to not listen to any of that.
Sabrin Gadow 15:05
How does it feel to be consistently told that your existence is untrue? Nah, like that its like an
idea that's a made up and came from forced westernization. And how did you find community
within that?
Ash Farah 15:17
I forced it. I figured out a young age since couldn’t find ummah within Islam. And I couldn't find
solidarity in my blackness. Because I, you know, as a kid, I like really was trying to find a space
where I wasn't seen as “other” entirely, um, I would try out like black identity and stuff like that,
but it's very hard because African Americans and African people have this long going, you
know, issue between the two. And it's just due to coming from different experiences of
Pan-African identity. I did a civil rights research tour, in order to like, better known about, you
know, the struggle of black African Americans and stuff like and found that I was within that, but
also separate and had to unpack that. I also had to unpack that in LGBT spaces that I went to
Minneapolis, were very white centric, very had various ideas of what it meant to be Muslim. And
I encountered a lot of Islamophobia. And a lot of racism too. So I felt great. So I'm too, I'm too
black, and too African and too Muslim, to be an LGBT spaces consistently, I'm to LGBT to be in
Islamic spaces, I'm too, you know, like, African and queer to be in black spaces. So I decided,
fuck it, I'm going to find and forge, and make community and make a chosen family and, like
make spaces for us to be, you know, for people like me to seek them out. Even though it's very
much, people say it's very much in your best interest to not claim all three of those identities
because even one of them. Islamophobia alone kills, homophobia alone kills, transphobia alone
kills, and anti blackness kills. But to claim all three and to be looking for other people like you, is
to literally, literally, paint a target on your head and say that's better. Maybe if I find two other
people like me, it'll be worth being consistently shot at.
Ash Farah 17:29
And I decided that at a very young age.
Sabrin Gadow. 17:36
Is this where your activism stems from?
Ash Farah 17:40
Ummm yeah actually. Yeah, like one thing of the things that I really liked about Islam, was it
that. I'm actually thankful for it because I love the story and Nabi [prophet] Mohammed.
Sabrin Gadow 17:51
Oh, could you explain the story?
Ash Farah 17:52
I'm as if we're not both. Okay. I don't know.
All right.
Ash Farah 18:00
He was the last prophet according to the Quran, and he grew up in Mecca during the time of
like, political strife. He was from the Quraish tribe even though he was an orphan, and he
literally been he started. He like was anti-idolatry. So this worship of idols and the trade of idols,
which was a lot of commerce to Mecca at the time, on against the various political and social
issues, like slavery, and the mistreatment of slaves and mistreatment of women and
mistreatment of orphans like himself and was very much a social, a social, like activist if you
really think about it, because I'm only an activist will be exiled out of a country for political
reasons. You know, asylum status alone. Literally went to Medina because his message was
just not sitting well with the people in power, because the message was of peace and it was of
like very very, very stark social change. And people were just not having it. And I found his story
to be really inspiring because even though people call him a madman, crazy like, called him a
liar, said he was possessed, all the things from like, for literally you know, for nothing more than
being honest and what he was known for being honest. And these are all traits that I, you know,
growing up really, really like held onto. And, you know, he spoke for a lot of broken people, and
even in war times had all these rules and I just really inspired to be like him.
Sabrin Gadow 20:00
You mentioned something about him being for the people, social activists and a comment you
said was that only an activist would do something like this, do you think because you were so
visibly queer, visibly trans that you and all that stuff that you kinda even chose this path and
more like directed to it and lead on it?
Ash Farah 20:16
Yeah.
Also, what I liked about him and his story was, he didn't have a say in being Nabi. He really
didn't have the say in being a prophet, an angel like just decided. Okay, you're going to read
today, even though he couldn't, um, and stuff like that. I just, he didn't have a say in the role he
was put in. I don't think I did really like I think I had to speak for a lot of people who are able to
speak for themselves. I met a lot of queers and somali queers that were silenced or were being
killed or were, you know, one way or the other forced back into the closet through finances
through just threats of absolute violence and All these, you know different things. So I decided
— I like when I learned to speak, I decided to actually speak for people who needed to be
spoken for. And I held that. And that's the type of activism I do.
Sabrin Gadow 21:20
Is that how you define activism?
Ash Farah 21:23
Now, I feel like activism is just an individual who's trying to create social change. And that's like
when people say, well, that's very vague. That's true, because there's different forms of
activism. What type of activism I like to focus on and do is called healing justice. And healing
justice is mainly focused on trying to heal and create spaces for people and communities who
don't have space for those who are being under attack or ostracized or things like that. And
don't have spaces where they can be themselves, access resources, heal them deal with their
mental like, find housing resources, very direct action type teas when you meet up with people.
And because there's — no one really gets it better than someone who's going through it.
Ash Farah 22:18
So that's the type I do. There's different types. There's, of course demonstrative which was the
type you see when you see people protesting. There's media, which is more based on
awareness and getting the word out. There's journalism, there's direct, direct line journalism,
which you can see people at Gaza, you know, partaking in. There’s, you know, charitable based
or like, income based or people who work in lobbying, which I have done work in. Like all these
different things.
Sabrin Gadow 22:35
Do you prefer doing like more active work and creating more healing spaces or just doing the
work to heal people with their own traumas up, of just being consistently being attacked or
harmed, rather than things like lobbying or more demonstrative work?
Ash Farah 23:00
Um, yeah, like I got to work with out front. And as they are an LGBT lobby group in Minnesota
against conversion therapy and trying to get a band. Luckily this year they got a ban after
literally, since I was 15 pushing this. I'm so very excited about that. I'm like, I saw the
administrative stuff like the overarching side of activism. I've also partaken in demonstrations
like how I've actually held rallies at the state capitol, I've interviewed politicians and talk to them.
Like I sat down with Ilhan for God knows how long trying to explain LGBT him some issues. And
I got to see that and I got to see lobbying firsthand. I worked in anti violence for a minute. I also
did a lot of you know, I was a kid. So I did a lot of LGBT activism through my school. I did a
documentary based on the experiences of a trans student going through local education system
Minneapolis. I also did over 200 teacher trainings to educate educators on how to better support
and aid trans and LGBT students. I like went to various schools, there were some very, very
against the message that I was trying to do and the say, which was simply just the best policies
is to be inclusive.
Um, there's also I also got to see, like gone to countless protests, for BLM, for Black Lives
Matter. I've gone to black immigrant collective and helping here. I've done direct service work
with Minneapolis Transgender Health Coalition, and they're shot clinic and trying to reduce harm
to trans and LGBT folks through medicine. So I got to see a lot of different types of activism and
truly and honestly, nothing would bring me more joy and more impact than directly meeting with
people in crisis and helping them get resources that they need. I'm talking with 13 year olds, 14
year olds, who are just kicked out of their house and need to be connected with various
resources. And you know, we'll have someone there to show them that hey, it does get better
even if it's consistently shitty.
Ash Farah 25:49
And like just having umm like having people call you for and reach out being like hey I’m Muslim
and queer. I don't know how my family is going to be like this. How do I go about getting
financial independence? Various like, helping like people online, trying to get resources for visas
and visa help an asylum status and get into the US from Kenya. I briefly worked on this project
with mossier which involved a chicken farm in Kenya where a lot of LGBT women, lesbian
women, with their children and of course because you know, like it's a product of the situation
they're in, like, get gainful employment, because gainful employment allows people to have a lot
more safety net and be less targeted. And obviously I'm supposed to go do that documentary
project over in Kenya but umm my immigration status at the time was not going to be left to test.
It is one thing to go help another thing to permanently stay.
But yes, it’s truth.
Sabrin Gadow 26:50
Umm yeah that’s definitely valid.
Ash Farah 26:55
But yeah, I don't know. I like I've seen a lot of it. I think nothing helps more than what I'm doing
now, which is directly connecting with muslim queers on a one to one basis and giving them
hope and resources.
Sabrin Gadow 27:11
That is definitely important work considering how it’s very not talked about.
Ash Farah 27:13
It’s not very glamorous, it's not like, and it's good that it's not talked about often times, like, I
think one of the most horrifying times in my life was, I was in this one documentary called out
north. A lot of people may have seen it. It's about LGBT history in Minnesota.
And I was helping the director, as a high schooler, like just, you know, like, interview folks,
cameras and all that. And I decided and he decided to throw me in and talk about the Somali
LGBT experience I had growing up. I talked about how Brian Cole the center was named after a
gay man, a gay man publicly against the Vietnam War. And things like that would affect like, anti
war myself. So it worked out
and I only learn this because I wanted to know how, because that was a center I grew up with,
like, it's right around, cedar and it's majority Muslim base and stuff like that. And I remember
being literally shoved behind the bleachers, for being nothing more than myself. And I found it
weird that that was the name associated with the building. And if he knew what was happening,
how he would feel, and I talked about that. And of course, I didn't know that TPT which was on
was free TV, and the entirety of my neighborhood saw it. And I got a flood of like, threats and
death threats and people being obviously righteously mad.
Sabrin Gadow 27:44
And what do you mean righteously mad?
Ash Farah 27:50
They're just mad because they were like, how dare this person speak on the unspeakable. This
is an unspeakable, shameful issue. You know, like, how can you? can't be both LGBT and
Muslim and you can also keep the community out your mouth and that kind of stuff because
we're still black and anti-snitching.
Sabrin Gadow 29:03
Say that period!
Ash Farah 29:16
God, um, and there's just. Umm it was at a time where the community was facing a lot more
police surveillance and CVE and a lot of friends working on it and, you know, countering CVE in
that process and it was just, I found it very, very, very difficult to hold all my intersections and
push for intersectionality in activism in all these different ways, because I was literally being
attacked for nothing more than, you know, posing a question and talking about, you know,
talking about my own experiences. And honesty, I learned at a young age really gets people like
hurt and killed and I worried for my family because my brothers and sisters were being chased
from school. Umm like, it was a horrific time. And now I realize, hey, since this is —
it brought like, yes, the visibility brought a lot of good things. But it brought me a lot of direct
physical harm, a lot of mental strife. So, I decided right then and there that I wasn't going to stop
activism. I was just going to target the people I wanted to target. I didn't care about those, you
know, white queers are watching this documentary, they're not the ones that I need to like,
reach out to or share this story with,
those real people who needed real help, which I would much rather do so yes, my activism is in
more of the shadows now.
But guess what, so are these people so I'm going where it goes, where the work is needed to
go.
Sabrin Gadow 30:45
I respect that. First, you talk about CVE and for those who don't know CVE is Countering Violent
extremism a program the government created to infiltrate like schools, public programs, things
that like they're getting federal grant money for. To like surveil people who are like being seen
as like being susceptible to joining terrorist groups. Things can seem simple as like people like
putting on hijab and not putting hijab has been more interesting in school life, things Iike being
more interested in Islam so like literally that was punishing curiosity. So as someone who was
around during this time with this documentary were you apart of part of the active against fight
against CVE.
Ash Farah 31:23
Yeah and I remember specifically going to um, I think Ilhan was speaking at this event at the
Bryant Cole about it and was confronted by a bunch of students like myself about this issue and
I remember sitting there in that room like in like, in that set like in front row sitting there with
myself like by myself, just like realizing that I look to the left of me, and I saw the Macalin that
like, you know, those Islamic school teacher that would torture me. Crying for their own kids and
worried about their own issues and just like, I remember that moment, like, I don't get to pick my
communities. But I wanted to be there for all sides of me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:19
That’s such an interesting thing to say all sides of you. Wouldn’t you consider it hard to sit there
and be in that kind of space, were you able to look yo you left and look yo your right and there’s
people have actively harmed you. We've been a whole situations or violence situations, and try
to fight with something that not only harms you, but your community as well, while they're
actively harming you. Like, for example, the out north one, the documentary that you came out
talking about being queer, and all that intersection of being queer, Muslim, and smally. And now
you're being harassed because of that, and then receiving, like threats because of that, and
then not being the space where you're actively advocating for people who wouldn't think for
you?
Ash Farah 33:00
Because that's the thing about justice you. You either want justice for everyone regardless of
how they are to you or you? You're not, you're not you don't just advocate and, like, wish good
things upon people because they like you. You know, like, I made peace with the fact that I
wasn't going to be liked by my community early on. But that doesn't mean people should be
surveyed. It doesn't mean people should be, you know, having Muslim bans and it doesn't mean
that, you know, like, our community should be pushed out through housing issues and initiatives
without their voice, you know, and all those things like, doesn't matter if they don't like me, or if
they wanted me dead, because that's more reflection on them than it is on me.
Sabrin Gadow 32:57
And that’s on period.
Ash Farah 33:43
You know, and, like, I just I remember, there's been so many like, I loved Islamic studies, and
Islamic stories as a kid. Because, literally if you —- Nabi Mohammed literally had the closest
saxabas [disciples] who were his closest companions were men who wanted him gone, who
wanted him dead, who wanted him you know, for better like during their times when they were
not Muslim. You know, like they truly believed all those horrible things and still reached out, still
did but did not resort to immediate violence and all that so I just found that admirable and you
kind of grew in with me and within my own philosophies of life.
Also, liked Isa [Jesus], but you know, like you can't be saying that too loud and in a masjid like
this, you know, because that's kinda like you riding a little Christian line there. What do you
mean Isa? But like, yeah, that like sense of like, turn your cheek sometimes.
It's not about you.
Sabrin Gadow 34:00
I like that because at the end of the day it’s for the community. Yeah.
Ash Farah 34:19
And part of it, whatever affects them, will affect me. It will affect my siblings, it will affect my
sister. So I am of the community like I got here through asylum status. So Muslim ban is very
serious. Like it's, you know, that kind of stuff. So, definitely.
Sabrin Gadow 35:18
You talk something — when you spoke about activism you do you spoke about healing and
healing through that, how's that relate to the major you chose at Augsburg?
Ash Farah 35:28
Well, I'm not gonna lie. The major I chose that Augsburg was bio psychology, because it was
the closest to neuro psychology because it was the study of the human mind. And I'm pre-med
because I am an African stereotype. And despite that, my mom really wanted me to be Poli-sci.
I like a lot of people thought it was going to be Poli-Sci because of, you know, just my interest in
activism and advocacy and all those sorts of things. But I just thought that I couldn't have both.
But I feel like you can pursue medicine. You can't pursue medicine without knowing the
communities that you serve, and stuff like that. So I think it made me more well rounded person
like, Yes, I wrote curriculum. The moment — that was the first job I got out of high school for the
superintendent of Minneapolis Public Schools by asked me after all the basically unpaid
trainings and work that I did to help create curriculum around LGBT history, and I was the
youngest person to be able to do so just because of that sort of work. And I found that policy
and politics and lobbying and working anti violence directly and working with youth all that did
not bring me the same.
It all had the same overarching theme of healing that I was trying to get. And I think the closest
to you know, a traditional healer is a doctor. So I really am hoping to become a doctor so that I
could help support a lot of non like a lot of nonprofits. I wrote a very —- I was a grant writer for a
minute. So I know the struggle of trying to get funding for your communities when they're like,
poor low income, stuff like that. So having a little couple names before your name, to like, push
something along to help your community really does help. Also, we literally have the worst
outcomes for, you know, Somali people here and there's a lot of like medicine, misinformation
that was given out by shitty people to vulnerable members of our community, and referring to
the antivaxxers who and also like, there's just not a lot of mental health advocates in our
community, even though for a vast majority of our elders are suffering from PTSD.
Ash Farah 38:00
You can't watch your entire family drown in a ferry and expect to be normal and then dropped
into a random country, that the only thing you have is faith in your religion, and expect and strife
and you know and expect to be normal with a lot of, you know, a lot of the female. A lot of older
people, all the females in our community have had issues of sexual assault or witness sexual
assault, there are more times I have a ricochet bullet from where my mom, got shot, it's just not,
you know, like it's just not talked about because and we need to have people who look like us
be able to address these issues. So it's not just, you know, just pray on it. Because that's the
only way to stop these cycles of trauma and stuff like that. So I would love and love to be that
person. And also guess what trans people also horrific outcomes when it comes to health care,
and so do black people.
So I figured it was the perfect calling for me.
Sabrin Gadow 39:00
That’s amazing, you talk a lot about unspoken, and things that are not talked about and is that
underlying theme that you’ve noticed a lot? Like what things you don't want to talk about things
we don't want to see we push aside and let that bubble until we actually have to address it.
Ash Farah 39:20
Yes, I think um, there's a lot of issues like that, but in particular, like queer Muslims have existed
and will continue to exist. It's just we choose not to talk about that because it's much easier to
tell your family that that cousin or that sibling
left or disappeared or got sick, then deal with the fact that this is a problem that needs the like
Reformation that we need to change the way we view the way, the way we accept treatment of
LGBT Muslims in our community.
Because that is not a reflection on the deen [faith] but a reflection of us.
Sabrin Gadow 40:10
You talk a lot about change. Do you think that the younger generation will bring about this kind
of change?
Ash Farah 40:12
Yeah, like the younger generations, I've already noticed have been more accepting and more
like conscious and aware of these issues and stuff like that it just comes down to if there will be
less of a literalist interpretation, and less, you know, hatred, but in, you know, we say, with every
generation, it'll get better and stuff like that. But, you know, hatred has a way of being taught as
a way of like, being propagated like Frederick Douglass said, it's easier to build a boy and make
a man or something like that, you know, it gets really, you know, and I think we shouldn't be
reaching out to youth, if people see like, that gay people cause diseases or like, they'll be like
Sodom and Gomorrah, like Qumul-lut [The People of Lot] you know, and stuff like that. And that
they are just generally bad people.
And they'll believe it because we're only 7% of the population. So it's not that many and even
trans people is even less. But even then we're still the same amount of people that have red
hair, you know, but like, youth aren't seeing positive, like impacts and positive, like members of
the community and stuff like that, who are out, who are visible or doing things that are, like
consciously positive. We're not going to we're not going to spark change.
Ash Farah 41:29
Where were we?
Sabrin Gadow 41:31
Sorry for the small break we took. We had to go grab a drink of water. You talk a lot about
visibility, and you talk a lot about the things that aren't talking about, and spoken about but you
think you made the chose to be more visible or did you feel like you had to like it was a duty you
owed?
Ash Farah 41:41
Here's the thing about visibility. I came out to my entire family at five. I wrote down. I'm a boy! I
loved Vikings, I loved all sorts of more masculine things, and what the immediate assumption
was, was that I had a jinn.
That I was possessed with a jinn and a masculine jinn and stuff like that or that I had an evil
eye or something. So they of course started you know, conversion therapies and stuff like that
to help and eventually, like it became I was a very, very honest kid so that obviously didn't really
didn't work at all because it was nothing wrong with me. And I this, I don't think there was a point
in my life where I decided to not be visible, I think I was always visible except under threats of
violence. That was it and I would, in a wouldn't even be a threat to me, it would be a threat to
either my siblings or my mom. And at that point, I started to like realize around the age of like,
nine or so that I needed to not be as visible not be as loud about it because it actually had
terrible effects on my mother and my siblings and my family in general. And it was, you know,
like, and I went along with it, I acted like I was consistently cured. I delved into Islam trying to
find some loophole, some something, some Hadith that like, show that I wasn't just this, you
know, weird, pariah! That there had to be something to explain my existence. You know, and
because I knew was true, and I wasn't lying and all those things, eventually found out the
Hamza one of the Saxaba [disciple] was performed a gender reassignment surgery on what
they would call them Mukannahth, which are, you know, like men who resemble women is the
direct translation, but which are trans women and of course, you know, transmen existed too at
that time and even in our and then I started to
Think. Okay, well, if the Quran doesn't obviously have anything against being like trans andthe
only Hadith I found was for it. I figured out right then that there was nothing and that Allah didn't
hate me, but that my people did. And honestly, people have hated a lot of people over time for
stupid reasons, you know people just love to hate. And I decided right then and I wasn't going to
be ashamed of anything that I had. Because I knew that if there was an Allah, that Allah was
merciful. Because I always read those the first line before any Sura [Chapter]. Do you know the
Most Merciful so I’m like if that is really true, then I am going to be fine. And those who wish
violence upon me, will have to account for it on the Day of Judgment. I found very that was very
faithful in that sense.
And I decided not to hide anything because Allah made me the way I was.
And I decided to be visible. And in the sense of I decided not to lie, which was a sin anyway.
You know? And that's okay. AndI just and I got to the point where like, I had no choice but to be
visible because not to be visible was going to kill my soul. It was just, I would have to pretend to
be someone I was completely not to everybody that I love and that they would start to love this
random person that I created. And I was not what I wanted. I wanted people to either hate the
authentic me or love the authentic me, then to love with this image, I propagate and hide out of
fear.
So if it was a choice, I don't even think it was a choice. I think the idea that it can be a choice to
hide yourself is actually really harmful, because so many Muslim queers I hear are just like, oh
yeah. Yeah!
Just go back in the closet!
When it's detrimental to your health and your physical well being, and your will to live because
why would you live if you can't sustain love or be authentic to your loved ones, or be honest like
that's not a life you're just living in a shell of a person, even though for but it's justified for safety
and I just realized I had nothing to lose and when it came to, obviously I had my life to lose. I
had like family to lose it like I had to leave at 13 I was homeless throughout my entirety of my
teen years. I've been beaten more like more times than I can remember.
I just —- in the sense of I had nothing to lose in the sense of the only thing I would have lost
was a fake life
I'd rather die a real one.
[RADIO SILENCE]
Okay? Hi.
Nothing???
Sabrin Gadow 47:30
Ohh (laughter)!
Going off your comment of dying a real one.
How do you feel? Headass.
You talk about you know that you had nothing to lose, you talk about your work and activism
and how it affected your family, and what does your family think of your work?
Ash Farah 47:50
It took, I'm not gonna lie I was disowned. It took a long while for me to get to a point where like,
where my mom and I can sit down and talk and do all that because was the once I left like it got
slightly better for them and over time it did get better for them in terms of being targeted and
having these effects but the fact that I continuously reached out and was doing work and I mean
I was like 16 doing it trans rally at the Capitol like it was you know, I was they doing teacher
workshop so it was entering classrooms you know, I was going against conversion therapy. And
that included Islamic conversion therapy, and stuff like that. So it was very much like can’t you
just go away and being gay somewhere else? Can’t you just not claiming to be somali, I just
change your name, change everything about you become fully Americanized, to be able to be,
you know, and I said, No, because I love my culture, and I love my people. I'm going to keep
this about me.
And then my mom was like, well I don't want you to come back in a body bag, please stop
speaking out with this is really, who does this help? Who does this help? And I'm, like, you
know, stuff like that because all it's doing is like harming you and I had my ribs are smashed and
I was, you know, like sleeping from bench the bench and like, like during school it was just not
good. It was not a good time and but I don't know like I just got it took literally until I was 20 to be
able to, for my entire family to realize that my leaving was to protect them so they weren't as
much of a target because I could not live there. And still, you know, I'd rather starve begging but
like doing that then have my family affected by a choice that I made a choice that I thought was
living the honest life, you know, and it took a conversation with my Mom to be like, hooyo, Abu
Talib, loved his nephew Nabi Mohammed, even though he was literally causing hell for him, his
tribe, his well being, and being called the daily like a crazy person or possessed by literally
everybody in his life, but he still defended a man who went against his core faith, he still died a
Kufar, he still died a disbeliever. You know, he still doesn't know he's still worship idols, you
know, but it was because of my family means more than that, if you don’t see that, I will find
family, and it just won't be you. And it just we had that, you know, moment of like, catharsis
between us. It took literally me making it into adulthood, making it my way in, you know, living to
tell them story about it. For her to realize that I made a good decision for her, the Family and
ultimately myself, because I'm in a good place now.
Sabrin Gadow 51:11
You referring to a prophet of like his life stuff like that making awesome letters to his life in your
life? Do you feel like you were chosen as well?
Ash Farah 51:23
No no no noooo. As much as I am borderline Kufar, now I'm not committing shirk, I just found
inspiring. That's all! I just found him inspiring and I find it like a good metaphor and stuff like that
for me to like, talk to my mom and talk to people that will view me as like this weird opposing
like, crazy person talking about like, Oh yeah, you can be queer Muslim, you can not be Queer
you can be queer and from some background and decide not to be Muslim. You can be Muslim
and do X, Y, Z because from diverse people, you know, and stuff like that.
While trying to remind people that through their own faith and stuff like that, like
People have been like people have been closed minded before in the Quran and it's not ended
up well for them. So maybe don't be like that?
Unknown Speaker 52:13
How does it feel to be told that because of your multiple identities and that you can’t be Muslim
when you’re like an Islamic scholar —Ash Farah 52:23
Oh I’m not an Islamic scholar.
Sabrin Gadow 52:26
I mean, like you’d win at a lot of conventions and you’re great reciter and things like that.
Like does it feel to know literally so much about the Quran, how does it feel to have someone
quiet literally struggled through their alif, ba, ta, [arabic alphabet] looking you dead in the face
and say that you cannot exist.
Ash Farah 52:44
I love that because it's not that you cannot exist is that my brain does not want you to exist
because then they will have to come up with this idea that Islam is more than their narrow
definition of the faith. At the end of the day is supposed to be easy.
Like, there was, you know, the story of like maybe Mohammed going into, you know, riding and
the baqra. You know, like, going on, you know, going to up to Jannah [heaven] and seeing all
the prophets and from Adam to you know himself and stuff like that and Allah saying that, listen,
this was prescribed I forget the exact number 40 times a day or something like that and moses
of being like, Nah man, if you're going back because my people couldn’t do even less than that,
so go back and back and forth between him and allah and he stopped at 5, the they decided
upon five daily prayers. And the lesson behind was Islam supposed to be an easy faith
accessible to all, regardless of race, gender, orientation, all that and I just until they grasp that
concept over there need to be you know,
Superior or their own prejudice with using justify justifying through the Quran they can I don't
think they ever will wrap their head around my existence?
… and I'm okay making people's heads explode because every fourth person starts to realize
well yes you can have both because like you know allah created people like me. So and that
you don't know everything you're just a stupid human being so follow your faith and be kind to
others
Sabrin Gadow 53:41
we're humans we live learn and make mistakes and grow and prosper. So as you a student at
Augsburg, can you talk about what kind of work you do here or that you are involved in?
Ash Farah 54:59
okay man. Um so I was a part of QIPOC like queer indigenous people of color which is a
student group here created to make space for queer indigenous people of color, of course, it
became a branched off of QPA, which is the main LGBT organization on campus. I'm the
current president and was on the board last year, really to create a space where queer people
of color can come together, chill, find solace in each other find community and get provided with
the resources that they need through and be able to come to social events during the campus
and stuff like that find people who have stories similar to them. It is a space for people who are
out and not out on campus, which is one of the you know, only spaces where people are
allowed to do that.
We make sure events are for the healing of the fundamental healing of our community, you
know, and we do various activities. We do various fun you normally do. Come together type
things because, you know, like, I want to create a sense of community here because in a
predominantly white institution and within those two, the two intersections alone, there's a lot of
ways that becomes a barrier to accessing the four year education here at this university. So it's
the least we can do as students to support each other through this horrific process, especially
since the majority of QIPOC are first generation and don't, you know, get this process at all so
it's better to go through it together.
That's what we do. QIPOC also has done resolutions for student government, for the protection
of trans people and trans day of remembrance. We also are part of the Equity Council, right
thing on campus and just various other student group collaborations with emphasis or this just
to insight a sense of intentional inclusivity, even in our Multicultural Student orgs.
Sabrin Gadow 55:01
I like how you say the word intentional inclusivity because (not just footnotes!) not just footnotes
because you're LGBT regardless.
LGBTQIA student services officially entered into MSS which was an intentional move to make
sure that we're including queer people who do have the identity where your a person of color too
so that is will not be treated like two separate identities.
How do you feel QIPOC is now navigating with the more boost of this new change?
Well, that LGBTQIA services included in MSS events being able to be under their wing not
either way, we'll be able to be like working closely with them despite that like do you feel that
this is a good move for QIPOC?
Ash Farah 57:54
I feel like this was ultimately a good move for QIPOC and was a move created and initiated and
pushed for by students last year.
We just did not like QIPOC only fitting really under on the LGBT student services or only under
multicultural services, which makes it really hard to find an advisor. Because, you know, like we
fit under both and I find that ultimately it'll be good for QIPOC students to be able to have
access to both things. Like and also have a space where they can be themselves among people
like them. So it's ultimately a good thing. Let's see.
Sabrin Gadow 58:26
How do you remain connected to your community or the causes you represent
Ash Farah 58:47
How do I remain connected to my community?
Well, I for now, due to a hate crime that was pretty recent and just trying to regain my own
health. I've been doing a lot of the direct direct activism that’s what I've been doing the last six
months.
Yeah, for the last couple months, um, but I just Yeah, but for the last couple months, but that's
Okay, because one way that I remain connected to the community that I want to represent and
that I am part of is through my student activism and student work.
So one way that I remain connected while trying to finish the course load of a pre med student is
through just like I had that horrific hate crimes. Sixth months ago.
Was it six months? I felt like no, it was July 4, actually.
About four months. Yeah, and the resulting concussion made school really hard to do so. I've
not been doing a lot of their direct activism that I've normally done but I've been active with
QIPOC on campus and creating groups and resources and reaching out to MSS groups and
stuff like that. So, students, the student group is one way that I have access to my community.
Another way that I like to remain connected to my community is through a book that I'm working
on. That I've been working on for about six months. And it's called, I don't know, I don't have a
title right now, but it will be basically be the Forgotten and 99 names, the other forgotten like the
other 99 names or something like that, where I would using the prompts of the you know, the
allah’s 99 names to showcase short stories and short interviews with Muslim individuals who
aren't typically included in the traditional narrative of what it means to be a Muslim. I mean, Like
for the obviously the most merciful, I will be talking about a friend miski, who in conversion
therapy had to had was literally taken back home for even more, you know, like conversion
therapy and stuff like that due to being a trans woman, which was seen as a form of
homosexuality and detestable by their parents. And she have not seen her since then. But, you
know, writing her story and what I know about her and how she did, and how she taught me
what, like, what mercy really like meant, that kind of thing on there's for the other 99 names, just
various, like queer Muslims or single moms or victim, Muslim women who've been assaulted,
sexually assaulted and all this by you know, just using the and interrogating these otherwise
forgotten stories and narratives into a, you know, short novel. And it's a process because it
involves interviewing a lot of people on a lot of topics that are very, you know, close to their
heart and not openly talked about in a lot of like Islamic circles, at least traditionally Islamic
circles that I've been in. And I think it'll be one way that I still remain connected in the
community, whatever presents also, another way that I'm remaining connected hopefully is by
the time I graduate, to start a another nonprofit.
Ash Farah 1:02:45
I co founded one early last year, which was for trans youth. Um, but another one which is we're
trying to come up with a name or debate debating whether we should say RUNTA which means
truth in Somali or come up with a more you know more pan-Islamic you know name for it but to
be an org dedicated for most queer Muslims and people from Muslim backgrounds who
happened to be queer and stuff like that so and just working on how that might look or what
types of events or things that might do so those are ways that I'm trying to stay connected.
Sabrin Gadow 1:03:29
Yeah, thank you and I as many other fans are, like can not wait for the book to drop
(laughter) thank you so much and thank you for your time. Thank you for sitting here with me
and talking about your path and your journey and it has been very informative and I want to
thank you for your time.
Sabrin 0:00
This is Sabrin doing an oral history project. Um Can you introduce yourself real quick?
Mustafa:
Yeah, this is Mustafa Jumale. Um yeah, uh 29. Black Immigrant organizer
Sabrin:
What identities or communities do you identify as being a part of?
Mustafa:
I am, I would say I am being apart of the Black immigrant communities. Um, also apart of the
queer community. And, you know, I think like I’m most connected to black organizers and
organizations, both like um multi generational African Americans and uh um black immigrant
folks I would say those are like my people really, you know? Yeah
Sabrin 0:48:
Awesome. Can you tell us a little bit about your childhood?
Unknown Speaker 0:53
Yeah, um uh what do I wanna say about my childhood. Yeah, you know, um it was great, to be
honest. Of course, you know, growing up poor growing up as a, you know, as refugees fleeing
conflicts, having older parents who have to, like restart their life in a foreign country with new
customs and a language challenging but you know Alhamdulillah, like my parents pushed, oh,
you know, you know provided us with everything that we needed. Um I have 11 other siblings,
most of us live in the US. I have two siblings who live in Canada and one in Somalia.
Yeah, so my most of my life I've been in Minnesota, but when we first came to the US, we
settled in Kansas, Missouri, and then we live-moved to San Diego. Some of my siblings and my
cousin moved to Minnesota where they heard their jobs and then uh yeah. My brother got into
some trouble and was arrested and subsequently deported. And so my mom was doing a lot of
commuting back and forth between San Diego and Minneapolis and then ended up feeling like
Minnesota a better option for us as a family. So we moved to rural Minnesota, which was crazy
and in a city called Mankota and uh not very welcoming environment at all. And we were there
for like two years and then we moved to suburban Minneapolis, and Eden Prairie. And, you
know actually , some of my siblings still, one of them just moved out, the last sibling just moved
out of the complex that we had originally settled in the early 2000s. But yeah, so we moved to
Eden Prairie there was a larger Somali population, larger immigrant population. And went to like
middle school there and high school in Eden Prairie and transferred to Edina. Cause it was like
a shitshow for black migrant youth, particularly Somali youth. School was just being xenophobic
so I left and have yeah had a really better time in a Edina public schools and yeah.
Sabrin 3:37
Um, ok after you went to Edina public schools you went to the U of M, can you talk a little bit
about your experience at the U?
Mustafa 3:45
Yeah the U of M was great, I would say I had an overall a great experience. Of course, it’s a
historically white university, I mean, a predominantly white university so there the challenges of
being a student of color and immigrants in this space. You know, a lot of issues around policing,
particularly like the West Bank is like closest to the largest Somali population outside of
Mogadishu. Cedar Riverside, you know so the police just criminalize all Somalis basically on
the West Bank didn't know who was a student, some Somali kids, or some Black kids did
something, you know, does not mean you have to like criminalize all of the Somali students on
campus. So that was a particularly challenging thing. Otherwise, I would say adequate
experience. Was in the Somali Student Association, did a ton of research, met wonderful
friends. Some of them I’m still connected to. Uh, travelled to South Africa. Yeah, just like really
opened my eyes to many, many different things and opportunities.
Sabrin 4:53:
Yeah. So your apart of the Somali Student Association, at what capacity were you involved with
them?
Mustafa 4:56:
I was the outreach coordinator and I want to say at one time I was at, I was a secretary. Yeah.
And so yeah, I did it for one year, it was good. There was challenges, you know, because
they're just like different perspectives are just like different perspectives of the group, right? You
have people who are very liberal, people who were moderates, people who were conservatives.
So sometimes making decisions around like dancing, doing Dhaanto, cultural social things
where men and women were mixing were challenging, you know, but we got through it through
difficult dialogue, you know. Yeah the SomalI Student Association really,I think is a backbone for
Somali students not only in the capacity that they have to like just convene students, but to do
advocacy for them to, you know. And so I remember, like uniting as Somali students when the
Somali Student Association president, my sophomore year in college was like dragged out of
the Wilson Library on the West Bank of the U of M. An It was just that the University of
Minnesota police departments just at the time and I don't know these days probably the same
was just so Zena phobic and racist towards Somali students Yeah. I worked on a like oral
history project with immigration history Research Center at University of Minnesota. And that I
think was a significant project for me to like really understand other Somali identity, other Somali
youth identities and what there experiencing compared to what I was experiencing, transitioning,
again, part of being part of the 1.5 generation.
Sabrin 7:09
What do you mean by 1.5?
Mustafa 7:13
Uh 1.5 is like folks who were like born in Somalia, but raised in the US, like myself. So, you
know, like, I don't really have much of a memory of my time in Somalia. So, I would say that a
lot of like the 1.5 generation, we do a really good job of like, constantly negotiating, you know
the space between Somali culture and the US.
Sabrin 7:50
Yeah, so that's such an interesting way to say that. So you start a little bit about studying racism
in South Africa. How did that shape you as a person today?
Unknown Speaker 8:00
I think I my South African experience was really significant. You know, to like understand their
history about like, the trauma during apartheid that they had experience. It really helped kind of,
like inform my understanding and complexity around racism. You know, how racism can be so
complex and how racist ideology really like, is deeply embedded in these societies. And I will
say, you know, also like, just the way even that racism in South Africa is more complex, and like
different than other places. So that experience was really good for me like it helped me not only
understand like how the students in South Africa were being treated at what where historically
white universities and now are, you know, more and more becoming blacker and blacker. And
so at the time I was working on a research project with about the experiences of African
American and African students, predominantly white, and historically white University. So I
interviewed some South African students, you know about their experiences at these
universities and it's very similar experiences, you know, that you would imagine. White students
and fraternities doing ridiculously racist things, like the same things that you see on some of
these campuses in the US. I would say the way in which South African universities responded to
the violence that these white folks were perpetuating was much more progressive than how like
a lot of these US institutions and universities responded to. Really, I think like that tradition
comes out of their peace and reconciliation process. There was, God I forget his name now, but
I used to really be involved deeply in some of this research. But yeah, there was a minister of a
university that like some really fucked up, xenaphobic things happen. And he convened a whole
like reconciliation process, you know, obviously, the students were, I think, expelled and
punished but like, moving forward there needed to be a conversation. So going back to like
South Africa last year, and my own, a lot of the same issues, honestly, that I saw in all nine. So
10 years later, or eight years later, or nine years later. Xenophobia is still rampant over there
and the wealth still held by white folks. You know, there's definitely like the youth and listening to
what the youth and the like next set of leaders and how they will work around reparations issues
around land and money, you know. So now there's some really like progressive conversations
happening around that. But I don't think the current like South African Leadership would be,
would engaged in actually providing reparations for folks or taking land, taking and giving people
their land back, you know, from the apartheid.
Sabrin 11:49
No, definitely. The experience you had in South Africa really is a great one. How did that help
you when you came back to America and the next steps that you took towards your career?
Mustafa 11:56
Yeah, so when I came back, I just like continued to do that research. Do you know it helped me
realize, like, how interconnected the world is, you know, and how a lot of our challenges are
similar. And you know, at the time I had always had never left US, like aside from going to
Canada and so it was like really powerful experience for me. And so I just continue that
trajectory of like research did some more research on like, Somali history, Somali oral history
projects. And then yeah, and then I, I ended up like, you know, like being really connected to
some of those people. I'm in South Africa. So we're still in touch and you know, I still connect
with them.
Sabrin 13:01
That’s so nice. How would you define activism?
Mustafa:
I would say activism really is, is… Activism for me, it means, the way it manifests in my life is
that I pretty much have been working in public policy around human rights and humanitarian
issues. And the public policy work that I do now with Black Alliance for Just Immigration (BAJI),
and the black immigrant collective work, and the consultation that I've been doing, I think, is the
form of activism because a lot of my work is just it’s mainly around issues that impact me and
my people and my community and I'm privileged in that sense to, you know, get to be paid for
the things I'm passionate about. For other people activism could be anything, you know,
anything that they're passionate about, like supporting in any way that makes us in their life.
Activism does not have to be like you showing up and risking your life in action. It could be you
donating, it could be you guys, whatever capacity you folks have. So, activism to me is
obviously like standing up for our fellow human beings really looking and making sure people
you know, have dignity in their lives and are not placed in a position where like, you know, I
guess the state violence will forever continue in this country but yeah.
Sabrin 14:55
Yeah, excuse me. Yeah, no that was really great. You talk a lot about the work in activism you
do is policy work and that really contributes back to like the policy work you did back in, when
you used to work for Congress, Congressman Ellison and the work that you do for your current
organization called Khrye Solutions. Can you talk a bit about both those experiences?
Mustafa 15:16
Yeah, I had a really good time working at Congressman Ellison’s office. I mean, obviously, it
was really challenging. I was very young, and I was dealing with some, like, big community
issues, you know, like a lot of the work that I did was around foreign policy around human rights,
and so particularly around Somalia, Ethiopia, a lot of work on remittances. And remittances are
like money that's permitted back to people in their home countries, we call it in Somali hawala. Is
like and so basically people are sending, you know, maybe like monthly or weekly funds to their
families back home to support their basic living. And so I've done a lot of work on that. Me and
my colleagues were really leading the charge on remittances, on Somali remittances. And we
were able to pass a bill that provided like banks, a technical fix that they were asking about, that
they thought would help with the Somalia situation. Ultimately, it really did not help it. So the
deal that we worked on allows regulators to, to share information, you know, that state and the
federal regulators can now share audit that they do on remittances. And so did that.
And then did a lot of work on Ethiopian human rights. In 2015, you know, we had a bunch of like
folks who've been killed in Ethiopia, and there's a large Ethiopian population here in Minnesota
and so I wanted to build community to do advocacy around that issue. And really making sure
that that, you know, the US government holds these Ethiopian governments accountable, like
pressure to the Ethiopian government to not be killing its own constituents or its own citizens. I
worked with the Oakland Institute that's based in Oakland, California, on a resolution that was
passed last year in in Congress basically condemning the Ethiopian government for the killings,
the killings of the Oromo youth, Anuak youth, you name it. We did a lot of work also around O.
Chela, who's the Anuak leader in Ethiopia. And Chela was kidnapped by the Ethiopian
government, detained and tortured. And so we wrote a lot of letters to the administration, to the
White House, urging them to advocate for the release of Chela. Ultimately, he was released
when, you know, there was a big, like revolution like this, those uprisings that were happening
led to a huge shift in Ethiopian government, you know. Apparently so there's a new prime
minister, and upon when he joined, he released Chela and other political leaders, a lot of Oromo
leaders. So I remember reading that on Twitter, and this was after I had left Congressman
Ellison's office last year and just breaking down and crying, you know, just because I could not
believe Chela was released. I had never met Chela Amitabh at the Oakland Institute, helped me
figure out how to do advocacy around Ethiopia, in Congress, and they were working on his
campaign Campaign to get a Chela released. So that's how that's connected to that. But yeah, I
did that. And then so like really working for Congressman Ellison and other elected officials
really allowed me to like understand how state and federal policy works and how to move policy,
got to meet a lot of powerful leaders. And so that led me to like leaving Congressman Ellison’s
office and starting data Khyre solutions with my friend and then going I'm kind of like a retreat to
like a little time off to just relax. Because I was burnout. We were doing a lot of work around a lot
of work around voter engagement, a lot of work around the humanitarian lobbying. And so
ultimately, it didn't really work out for my friend. She was not interested in this type of work. And
I ended up continuing on my own. And then you know, Trump was elected. And as a result of
that, a bunch of us got together and established the black immigrant collective. Which is a
collective that is based in Minnesota that does community based advocacy work on black
immigration issues. It's mainly led by black immigrant women. So I've been doing that for almost
three years. And then through that I got connected to and more involved in immigration work.
There's also like several, like a lot of our work has been around Liberian DED (Deferred Enforced
Departure) because there's several Nigerians who are part of the collective. And so collective,
the collective started really after the Muslim ban was put in place like a bunch of us kept getting
calls and what like going on? You know, people who were worried that they were not going to
be reunited with their families and things like that because of this ban. Then from there, we
ended up working on immigration policies working on something called Liberian DED, Deferred
Enforced Departure. I call it Deferred Enforced Deportation. Yeah, so BAJI, the Black Alliance
for Just Immigration, reached out to them on us kind of thinking through like how we want to go
about doing this advocacy work. And so they flew out to educate us on some training. We got to
know them better, what they do. And then they invited us to DC to advocate for Haitian
temporary protected status. And temporary protected status is a status that folks are given when
the country that they're from experiences a man made crisis like a civil conflict or environmental
crisis, you know, like the hurricane, earthquake, things like that.
And so the administration so --Trump administration-- is terminating TPS for terminated TPS for
Haiti. So what that meant is that you know, close like 56 or 58,000 Hatiain TPS holders were
gonna become undocumented and be required to leave the country. And that's not even
including their children who would leave with them problaby, who are US born children. And so,
yeah, and so from there, we went to other convenings. And so they were there was a lot of, you
know, as the cookie at the time around Liberian DED, like a small group of people, Liberians, I
think we're working on it and other advocacy organizations. But we really came in there and just
like really uplifted the Liberian DED situation. And so Liberian DED is similar to TPS except that
the President of the United States has to extend it every year, so it's a discussion of the
president to extend, terminate or to terminate. So he decided to in 2018, he decided to
terminate it and provide people with like a year to get out of the country.
**techincal difficulties from 24:34 to 25:20 **
Sabrin:
Ok, we were talking about the president deciding to terminate DED in 2019 or 2018.
Mustafa 25:29
Yeah, so what he did was that, you know, he put the Liberians on noticed who were on DED.
Which, for us, we think it's about 4000 or 5000 Liberains who have that status. There are a lot
more eligible for that status. However, because of the, because of the fees associated with it, it's
expensive. You're talking about $400 $500 every year a pop applying for this. And so and we're
talking about people who are poor working class immigrants, and so some families have to
make the tough decision of deciding who in their family, usually the breadwinner is going to get
renewed. And so, and for others, they become undocumented. So, thankfully, you know, like, for
the past several years, you know, DED has been continued to be renewed every year.
And so, because of our advocacy, we actually were able to get DED comprehensive
immigration. Wait not the comprehensive immigration bill that was discussed a couple of years
ago in Congress. Okay, let me pause. I’m confusing myself. Okay, so what I'm trying to say is
that Congress earlier this year passed a bill called the Dream and Promise Act. It provides a
pathway to permanent status for DACA dreamers, TPS holders and DED holders. And so DED
is really only like 4000-5000. We got it to the point where they were included in that major piece
of legislation. We uplifted it as like a bigger issue with an immigration policy. And then all of a
sudden you have people like Nancy Pelosi and others speaking about the DED anytime they
talked about TPS. And that's how they talked about DED, which is great. And so as a result of
many, many years, I've only been involved in this for like the past three and a half years,
Liberian DED work. But many Liberian aunties, predominantly - and women, Liberian womenhave been doing this work for many years, for the past 20 years. And so in the past three years,
we're able to make a lot of strides. I think because the environments that we were put into
require us to act quickly and aggressively to protect our people. And so as a result of that
Congress last week passed a defense bill, defense bill passed in the House and then passed in
the Senate. And so the in that bill- first of all that bill is toxic. That bill is basically like, providing
funding to people, you know, military support for foreign governments, expanding our military
industrial complex here. But within this bill, there's language that Senator Jack Reed put in that
provides permanent status for Liberian DED holders. So that bill was passed in the House last
week, it's kind of tomorrow, the Senate is gonna vote on it. They expect the President to sign it
sometime this week. And just like that, you know, Liberians who have been undocumented for
20 years, in a couple of weeks can apply for a green card.
Sabrin:
That’s amazing.
Mustafa:
I know, this is such a big deal, you know, and so, I mean, this is probably one of the only
progressive immigration themes that have passed in this administration you know, and so I,
yeah. You know, for me, I've been doing this a while, and so I have the technical experience, so
do other people in the collective. So , yeah, it's just been simply amazing to see what we’ve
been able to do
Sabrin 30:09
Yeah, it's so nice to see your hard work and other people's hard work actually amount to
something, especially in this administration. And not only but an administration whose past
things like the Muslim ban, so that this got past is absolutely amazing. I am so happy for
everyone who affected. Okay, so you talk a lot about how you got into activism through policy
work and stuff and like activism through your schools, Somali Student Association and the
programs and jobs you've worked afterward. Do you think that you actively chose to become an
activist or do you think that fell into your lap and not fall into your lap but, like fell into your path
as you got older? And if so why?
Mustafa 30:42
So I've always been interested in like, human rights I've always been interested in protecting
and advocating for vulnerable communities and people. I think what really saved my
understanding around the complexities and the challenges we face as people of color in this
world when I went to college, and so I would say that, that really pushed me into working on
issues that are impacted by, you know, working on issues that people are being impacted by.
And from there, you know, I was gonna go to graduate school and become a professor. That
was a track. That was the idea. And then I decided not to out of circumstances. And I didn't get
funding to go to graduate school, you know, I was admitted to Cambridge University in the UK. I
was going to study African, get a MA (masters) in African Studies and didn't get funding so I
decided to work for the Minnesota DFL. I was TAing (teacher’s assistant) for a class at the U,
and one of my students encouraged me to apply for it. So I organized around East African
issues. And then from there that led me to working in politics and working in policy. I mean, it
was not an easy experience. I experienced a lot of trauma in this process. You know, I fell down
and burnt out myself one too many times, but continue to like, get up and try again, keep going.
The racism and xenophobia inside the Minnesota DFL and Minnesota politics in general. It’s
Crazy. The work that needs to get done, you know, around it to really make sure that we are
seen as equal partners in the Democratic party here. And so I'm no longer really organizing
around Democratic electoral work. I mainly now just focus on issue based teamwork, you know,
like immigration, other issues, the policies of those things so, and, you know, doing some
advocacy and activism around that. I'm not, I don’t foresee myself, like ever getting involved in
the Minnesota DFL. Again, just because I don't have I mean, I don't have time for that. I think
people are trying to change here. Hopefully, it becomes a more inclusive organization. But yeah,
I mean, like working at the state legislature and organizing what them, these people really don't
understand. Like these people, I would say are really taking advantage of people of color, but
are not coming through for us when it comes to issues that matter to us.
Sabrin:
That’s definitely true, especially with the DFL it always feels like they’re there for us during like,
when it's time to vote, and when we have to like elect our officials, but after that they kind of
seem to just fade out and not be some concerned are like our policies or issues that affect us. It
just feels like we're being used, which really sucks. And it caused a lot of burnout and frustration
because it feels like not being supported by the community or political group that’s supposed to
support you. And it’s really frustrating. Moving onMustafa 34:18
Yeah,
Sabrin 34:19
Oh, sorry keep going.
Mustafa 34:21
Yeah, no you're right it’s frustrating. That was my DFL experience.
Sabrin:
Moving on to our next part. Do you still, are you still part of the faith?
Mustafa 34:37
Yeah, I consider myself Muslim. You know, I grew up in a Sufi household and so I really like the
Sufi tradition. I was lucky enough to go to Somalia with my father in the last couple of months of
his life. And from that experience, I really got embed myself in the tradition of the Sufis in
central Somalia in particular, and it just really like opened my mind a lot of their traditions and
their practices. And then you know, I was going through a crisis you know, like my dad was
dying so I started reading the Quran
Sabrin:
I’m so sorry for your loss.
Mustafa 35:20
No, thank you. Yeah, my friend. And so my I started like reading the Quran, but the English
version of it. And I remember like my uncle and my other relatives being so fascinated and so
shady about me reading the Quran in English. They were just like really surprised, they were
like ‘Wow. How can you do this?’
Sabrin 35:52
It's almost as if Old Arabic is such an easy language to pick up like, I know people who have like
master the Quran, but there's no one single thing about it because they don't understand the
language in it. So the fact that you can even read it in English is such a good way to learn more
about it but still have a connection where it's like I know it's going on in other words, I know how
it relates to me and my life.
Mustafa 36:13
Yes, I consider myself, I, you know, like, really value the experiences like that I had with the Sufi
tradition. And a lot of it was like meditative to be honest I got involved in meditation center for a
while and a lot of it reminded me of that, you know, chanting, sitting in silence, meditating to
this very rural, very rural place called Burroraqadi, I think it’s called that. I’m probably
mispronouncing it but, like I think it translates to like a place where a lot of people died. But I
went to a Sufi university, that one of my relatives was teaching. And I was like, it was so
beautiful, you know? It was so tranquil, like, so peaceful. And the women had their own mosque.
First time I ever saw that. And because most times, you know, you see the mosques like they
don't provide a lot of space for women.
Sabrin 37:39
Oh, it's always like they’ll have the men’s side decked out 10/10 beautiful, clean head to toe.
And the women’s side will be like an empty broom closet Two rugs in there and they say, why
are you upset? You’re lucky you are even being allowed into here and you're like, ‘Oh, my bad.
How dare I expect right oopsie never again. But, no, it's really nice they have their own
mosque, that’s something they don't really see. Yeah, so how does being Muslim cosign with
your activism?
Mustafa 38:06
Oh, I think it's part of my faith calls me to it. Yeah. For sure. Like to like, stand up for people's
dignity and humanity and rights and being struggle together across communities and in an
intersectional way. Yeah, I really do believe that my faith is really what caused for us to be
involved in our communities.
Sabrin:
Islam is a religion of peace.
Mustafa:
Oh yeah, just tell that to the administration.
Sabrin 38:51
Hoepfully they’ll understand soon enough. What is your experience as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa 38:57
I’m sorry, I didn’t catch that.
Sabrin 39:02
Oh, I’m sorry. What is your experince as a queer Muslim activist?
Mustafa:
Oh, I would say, good. You know, funnyliy enough like a lot of the people even leading the
liberation work are queer black folks in black communities tend to be queer. So like, for
example, if you look at the National Immigration advocacy world, particularly the folks that do
advocacy around black immigration issues, most the majority of the folks network are queer
black migrants are leading that work. And so I would say, like, the ways that it intersects,
honestly, is that it allows us to, like view some of these issues in a more complex way, you
know. So, for example, like we, I was recently writing a letter on Somali temporary protective
status for a member of Congress. Basically they're sending that letter to the administration to
advocate for Somali TPS status to be reinstated. And in that letter, I wrote like, if Somali TPS
holders, are sent back to Somalia, you know, like women and people from marginalized
communities, like queer Somalis, will be persecuted and girls. You know, and, so I think it just,
it layers, like the kind of work that we do. I would say it's also challenging because, you know,
some people are stuck in their ways around queerness. like as if so, like, as if, like, I don't know,
I actually don't know how to explain this. Like, I think it's just homophobia, you know. I'm like
trying to figure out a nice way to say this but it’s homophobia.
Sabrin 41:01
Some of the most complex feelings and emotions can really boil down to homophobia. And
that's really sad. But it really is a-
Mustafa 41:07
It’s homophobia because yeah.
Sabrin:
It really is.
Mustafa:
YeahSabrin:
Oh, I’m sorry did you have something else to say? Ok, so you talk a lot about about the reasons
why you do this and your experiences and like the work you've done. How does your family
think of your work? What does your family think of your work?
Mustafa 41:37
Yes, just to like finish that thought on the queer Somalis. I'm used to queer activism.
Sabrin:
Oh, Im sorry
Mustafa:
Yeah, no, the only thing I was gonna add is that like the word so I was telling you how like the
majority of the people, the black migrant organizing nationally, and leading the policy work on
queer black migrants, the people that we work with directly impacted based on my experience
has really welcomed us and accepted us you know as who we are, and are grateful for the work
that we do. You know, and I've really become like kind of like family to us. I think there are some
people who may be intimidated by you know, queer folks and don't want to work with us. And
that's that, we can’t do anything about that.
Sabrin:
Yeah I’ve definitely realized growing older and like, like moving more into my adulthood is, when
you get people by themselves, their gonna be really cool and their understanding but group
dynamic or group think belief, because the majority will only sway the few and that real sucks.
Going off that, what does your family Think of your work?
Mustafa:
My family is very supportive of my work. I think they're very supportive of my work and I've
always been honestly like. You know, they've heard my broken English, I mean broken Somali,
on BBC Somalia talking about remittances and TPS for Somalia. Other issues so they're proud
that I'm able to like, work on issues that our communities. Yeah.
Sabrin 43:23
That’s so nice. Ok, Any final thoughts or statements you'd like to add?
Mustafa 43:39
But what I would say is like, I'm really inspired by the Somali queers youths that are up and
coming right now. I'm really looking forward to seeing that the work that they lead in the future.
Like over the weekend, I was just observing stuff on Twitter, that like a bunch of Somali queer
youth were just engaging in like, just dialogue around, like queerness and sexuality, you know.
Like this, this young Somali queer woman or femme? I want to say probably probably like 19 or
20 or 20. Posted a pic of her and her girlfriend, you know, some of the Somali Twitter just kind
of went south.
Sabrin:
Yeah. Some people, are just jobless and have so much time to comment.
Mustafa:
Yeah, but its so inspiring to see how the Somali queer youth are responding. How they are
likeI'm here and not afraid. It really brings a lot of warmth to my heart.
Sabrin:
That’s such a beautiful way to end things off. People as always say the youth are our future, and
it's so nice seeing the Somali youth stand for themselves and who they are and undeniably live
their best life.
Mustafa:
I know right? And for a lot of them, I feel like Canada is where it’s at for Somali queers right
now.
Sabrin:
The way Toronto is popping for no reason.
Mustafa:
I know! You see that?
Unknown Speaker 45:23
Thank you so much time with me. I really do appreciate it.
Show less
Oral History with Anna Cox (2022)
Fri, 5/13 12:44PM
32:31
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills,
important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections
SPEAKERS
K... Show more
Oral History with Anna Cox (2022)
Fri, 5/13 12:44PM
32:31
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills,
important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Anna Cox
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of citizen professional in higher
ed. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of
the Augsburg health commons. Can you please introduce yourself for the recording?
A
Anna Cox 00:23
Yeah. My name is Ana Cox. I use she/they pronouns. I am a recent graduate of Augsburg.
Katie Clark 00:29
Great. And so before we continue, I just want to confirm that you give consent to being
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public?
A
Anna Cox 00:41
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:42
Great. So when did you graduate from Augsburg University?
A
Anna Cox 00:49
So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently.
So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently.
Katie Clark 00:59
Great. Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied
when you were at Augsburg?
A
Anna Cox 01:08
Yeah, so I ended up graduating with a degree in Gender, Sexuality and Women's Studies and
with a minor in social welfare. The social social welfare part is social work. But I only had it as a
minor. I didn't complete the major. But that's what I graduated with. It kind of had a journey to
get there. But ended up with women's study.
Katie Clark 01:32
Excellent. And why did you choose to come to Augsburg?
A
Anna Cox 01:36
So my grandma actually went here when she was in college, which was about 70 years ago.
And I I'm actually her last grandkid, I'm the only grandkid that went to her alma mater. So she's
very, she's very excited. And one of the reasons that I really looked into Augsburg was we were
familiar with the school because of her. She had a wonderful experience. But I also really
wanted to go to a school that was diverse. That was in the cities that was small liberal arts. And
Augsburg really had kind of all the boxes checked for me. And then when I actually did my tour,
it just felt so different from the other schools that I had visited. So that's really what brought
me here.
Katie Clark 02:33
So thinking back at your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of the citizen professional civic
engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills, discuss in your classes, or any programs that you
are involved with?
A
Anna Cox 02:50
So I was really lucky that my first year. I got really quickly engaged with leadership. I worked in
the Sabo Center through the Environmental Stewardship Committee, and worked there for both
my first and sophomore year, um, through specifically that program. Later, I had joined Sabo
through lead fellows. But we had talked a lot about being civically engaged, and kind of
growing our leadership skills and in that sense, and a lot of that came from my internship with
the Sabo Center. I haven't heard it in my classes. But my first a sophomore year, I was a bio
major, and then I switched to undecided. And so I wasn't too surprised that I wasn't hearing
civically engaged things in those classes. But I would say that when I moved into Women's
Studies and Social Work, it became more of a relevant topic. But a lot of what I got was through
being involved in Sabo, and all of the workshops that we had, and really what they taught us in
that, but yeah.
Katie Clark 04:15
Excellent. Where did you have your field placement for when you were in the Lead fellow role?
A
Anna Cox 04:22
So for my placement, I was at the Minnesota Youth Collective. So that's what I was doing.
Katie Clark 04:29
Great. So which of the experiences, and some of these questions are a little redundant, but just
trying to see if there's anything else you wanted to add, but what experiences if any standout
as meaningful opportunities to learn integrate lessons across coursework and community
engaged?
A
Anna Cox 04:49
All right, it froze up a little bit. Could you repeat that?
Katie Clark 04:52
Yes, it did. I'm sorry. I don't know what's going on here. Let me make sure it's making sure my
wifi was on the right thing,. Sorry about that. Okay. Okay, so what experiences, if any standout
as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and
community engaged learning? And you kind of answered this. So it was, you know, it seems like
maybe there was, you know, what was in your classes at the beginning, right was different.
What you were learning and community engaged work until you switch? But yeah, was there
anything that was really meaningful opportunities to kind of connect those two, if any?
A
Anna Cox 05:45
Yeah. I think that in a lot of my Social Work and Women's Studies courses, because we had a
field placement attached, or we had an internship that was attached to our courses, that our
experiences in our internship were really important. I would say that for my internship with the
Minnesota Youth Collective, particularly around voting, voter education. And we just had a
recent Minneapolis election around two really important topics, rent stabilization, and then the
creation of the Department of Safety. And so because there was so much history and
knowledge that we needed to know and let students know of, I think that was a really key one
for me that really well was like, Okay, we're learning about being civically engaged. But also we
had with the Department of Safety, we had the George Floyd event. And so it's just, there's so
many things to learn, and so many things that are just beyond just talking about voter
education, that you have to talk about history and like white supremacy and talk about a larger
topic. And so because that connected to that, we talked about that in my courses of how, how
are you culturally competent in your work? Or what are things historically, that you need to
know. So when you are in your internship, you're just more aware and like, are better able to
kind of work on your project?
Katie Clark 07:41
That was really powerful. And I can't imagine what your experiences might have been, like,
between the pandemic and the social unrest, and then thinking about your connections that
you've had in the community, like, just wow. So, um, in what ways did civic learning
experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership, if
any, if you feel like it did, I guess it's kind of a loaded question. But do you feel I will reward that
some of the experiences prepared you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership?
A
Anna Cox 08:24
Oh, yeah, absolutely. When I was working in the Sabo Center, I also was working as an
orientation leader. And part of the orientation position was attending the LEAD fellows
workshops, or the Sabo workshops. And they weren't required of us, some of them were, some
of them weren't. But it was to our benefit that we would go to them. And a lot of them were
around developing leadership skills, or learning how to organize or you know, things like that,
that are just so staple skills for anyone. And even though maybe I wasn't interested in nonprofit
work, that if you know, down the road, that I would be I have those skills and have that
experience that I can draw from. But also it taught, it teaches you a lot about really working
with other people who are different than you and being able to hone in on your own leadership
style, but also learning how to work with people who are of a different leadership style than you
are. And one of the things that I really found really helpful is that we were kind of allowed to
make mistakes because we're in college, we're allowed to ask questions, we're allowed to make
mistakes more than And, you know, we would if if it was a full time position, but because it was
an internship or because we were doing these workshops, it we were allowed to kind of
struggle with it, which is nice that we were able to get that experience beforehand and get
those skills beforehand. So now that I know that I'm, it's like, okay, I don't have to go into a job
and like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this, I already know how to. And so I really think of
the workshops that I did the experiences that I had, as just really key important skills that I
wouldn't have gotten anywhere else.
Katie Clark 10:46
Okay, so have you been able to use and you've already kind of answered this your civic
learning or community engagement experience, to affect decision making, or be an agent of
change as a professional?
A
Anna Cox 10:59
Anna Cox 10:59
Yeah, as I'm looking into full time positions, or thinking about what my career goals are, a lot of
that is thinking about, how do I use, you know, the skills that I have, in my own workplace. And
like, especially when I was working in the Campus Life Office, we were student workers, but we
were also known as paraprofessional student workers, that there was just an extra bar that was
kind of the standard for us. And part of that was using the knowledge and skills from those
workshops and implementing it into our work, because we worked so closely with incoming first
years or first year students, or really younger students who wanted to be in leadership
positions, that it was really important for us to know how to organize or how to advocate for
students. Or, like, when I was in student government, really using those skills of how do you
talk to people in a different power dynamic than you are? How do you advocate for things that
you want, in a way that, like, is going to make an impact on campus and is not just, you know,
like, some, you know, you're not just asking for something, but like, can really implement the
change. And so those are kind of things that I've seen that I've been able to do in my work with
student government in the Campus Life Office, kind of directly advocating for students, but also
directly working with students. And like, being in relationship with them and knowing how to
like navigate, kind of those spaces with them.
Katie Clark 13:04
So this question isn't on the script, but just because rarely do I feel like students are so self
aware, but also like, you're clearly an expert in civic engagement and civic skills, and really
thinking about how to be political in all aspects of life. So given that I, this is one thing that I
struggle with a lot, and I'm wondering your thoughts on it. But I find that a lot of times when
we're teaching about this in classes, like you know, what you can do about issues you're
seeing, and obviously, mine's mostly in healthcare and social justice. So health and health
inequities, I find that students are quick to polarize, instead of try to find common ground, and I
hear you almost talking about building that common ground, which I think we need more of.
And so for you, is that something that you learned? Or is that something that you've just always
kind of been? A person of, is just trying to kind of meet people where they're at and see where
you can kind of agree to disagree or come together on something like, where would you say
you learn that skill?
A
Anna Cox 14:24
I actually really attribute it to my Women's Studies degree, because I actually just recently
wrote a paper about this, but I really try in the work that I do to have, like a feminist pedagogy.
And part of like, as I'm reading feminist theories and feminist authors, one, I forgot who it is.
But there's this feminist author that basically talks about how like we should be talking about
our differences in order for us to, like, band together, that our differences are really important.
And when we don't talk about them. It's, it's not making aware of the actual issues going on.
And I think there's needs to be a good balance of talking about our differences, but also saying,
We're super similar, or we're, you know, we have these similarities. And I think that's kind of
where I was able to kind of gain that skill, because so much of the things that I've learned in
the classroom are feminist theories. And so when I think about the work that I do, in, you know,
my professional life, but also with leadership development, and with students, it's having that
feminist pedagogy mindset. And really incorporating that into the work. But also, I think,
something that I think we've kind of just I think a lot of students have really learned from just
being at Augsburg is having a sense of being inclusive. And I think that that has really been
fostered throughout my four years here, of who is at the table who's missing from the table.
Okay, we're in this meeting. And we have this many white people at the table, or we have this
many cisgendered people at the table. What does that mean for our team? And like, why are
we? What is the demographic? What does it mean, and especially because when I was working
in the Sabo Center, first, in the Environmental Stewardship Committee, we had a lot of talks
about race, because environmental work is pretty, it's pretty white. And it's really white
centered. And so we had a lot of conversations about identities about being inclusive and
having more of an intersectional frame of the work we did. So I think those are really things
that kind of impacted a lot of the way that I think about things now and how I work now.
Katie Clark 17:18
Excellent. Um, so this question is a little dense, so I'll can say it again, if you need me to help
more students ask for to be repeated. So what connections if any, do you see among your
professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Professional, your vocation I know,
that's an Augsburg term, and civic leadership. Oh, okay. You can take your time too.
A
Anna Cox 17:55
I think a kind of connection. I think is being intentional. That's what I would say is being
intentional. I think I'm gonna go through all three to kind of make the connection, but I think
being civically engaged, I think it can be really easy to fall into the trap of being performative.
And just getting something done to just do it and to show it off, but not actually being
thoughtful, and being intentional with what you're doing. And I saw that really in, like student
government, it's really, it can be really energizing and really exciting to you know, whip out all
of these letters to the President, I, I'm forgetting what the name is right now, but are all of
these projects, but if they don't mean anything, when they actually aren't sustainable, or that
they don't actually make a change? And so I think really being intentional. I think with vocation,
I think that now because of the pandemic, really finding joy, and really finding my passion in
my career is just something that has been always important to me, but I think now that the
pandemic has, that we've been, you know, through the rough parts of the pandemic and kind of
still through it, the I really had to think of, okay, what do I actually want to do? What am I
passionate about? What am I going to wake up and be energized about? And be excited about?
And so really being intentional with what I see for myself. And then I think, my professional
development, kind of in the same sense of being intentional about how am I developing as a
leader? How am I being a better colleague for my, for my peers? How are the things that I'm
learning and reading important for the health of you know, my workspace, but also the
relationships that I've made. So I think being intentional for all three of them, it's just really like
sitting back for a little bit being reflective and thoughtful. It's just kind of a common thread that
I've seen.
Katie Clark 18:43
That was beautiful. Okay, so the next question is, do you see yourself as a civic or citizen
professional? Even if you don't specifically use that term? If so, how do you describe that or
explain that to others?
A
Anna Cox 21:39
I think one way that I kind of think about it is that I try to think of it as, like, being the person
who's willing to ask the question. I think I had said this earlier, but like, who is at our table?
Who's not at our table? And even though you might not use the title "civically blank", but
having that, like, thought of who's at the table who's not? There was also this thing that I saw
about the the tenets of white supremacy, and how people kind of live into that without
knowing. And one of them is like, being defensive, or being really strict with time. And so I think
even willing to go against those things, and to be in constantly anti-racist work, that even doing
things like that are being civically engaged. And really being thoughtful of how do you show up
to spaces? And how do you make space for other people? And so that's kind of how I think
about it, of even you might not think of like, Oh, I'm specifically doing this, that, you know, the
work that you're doing is, in that sense?
Katie Clark 23:29
And so here is a question I have for you that I kind of struggle with is, I think oftentimes in our
coursework, or in some of those workshops you were describing, we use the word citizen or
civic professional. And I'm wondering your thoughts on if there is a better word that would
resonate, especially with like your generation, because I feel like there's some pushback back
on whether it feels too grandiose, like, oh, you know, I'm striving to be that, but I wouldn't say I
am one or the language in itself. So do you have any, I guess, how do you react to the the
terms itself itself? And do you have a suggestion for a better way to connect it to students, if
any?
A
Anna Cox 24:30
I see two sides of it. I think there's one part if someone sat down and said, This is what civically
or a civic profession looks like, or this is what this means. It's like, oh, okay, this makes sense.
So, I think that a lot of times, a lot of these kind of big words are used at Augsburg and a lot of
kind of buzzwords like when we say intersectionality or when we say inclusive or when we say
diversity, what does that mean? And so I think it's the same thing of like, Okay, what does that
mean? Like? What is? What's the specific meaning? And how would that be reflective of like a
biology major or someone, you know, an education major? And so I think it's so tricky because
like, it can be so broad yet so specific because of what you're, what you're studying or what
your career goals are, or what your goals in life are. I'm not sure what word or phrase or label
to use it. But I don't mind the Civic Professional. I think there just needs to be more awareness
and education, but I'm not sure. I think if I had a little more time to think of something I could.
Katie Clark 25:58
Yeah, no, no pressure, just wondering your thoughts on it. That's great. So there, this question
is one kind of asking you, is there anything you wish you would have learned at Augsburg that
you didn't? Are there experiences you wish you would have had to prepare for your future
career?
A
Anna Cox 26:22
Oh, okay, this is not a bold statement, but I'm gonna have a bolder explanation. I have
absolutely no regrets. I think I have learned everything that I could in the journey that I've had
here at Augsburg and I think that outside of Augsburg, I think there's, of course, more learning
to do. But I think that everything that I could get out of Augsburg, I could. But I say that,
because I constantly said yes to things. When there is an opportunity, and I could fit into my
schedule, I said, Yes. I challenged myself, I pushed myself out of my comfort zone. Like if I think
of first year me, like if we met, it would be like looking at two different people. And every
opportunity that I was given, I jumped on, and every connection that I could make, I made
those connections. And I think when students say, Oh, I missing this, or I didn't have this
opportunity it's because they didn't take it. And I'm really not trying to be too harsh or bold. But
Augsburg has all of these amazing opportunities and connections. But it's on the responsibility
of the student to take it. And with my own experience, I really made the most of the time that I
had here. And I have absolutely no regrets. And I think I learned everything that I could have.
And so that's really, that's my response. I really got the last drop out of the school for me.
Katie Clark 28:08
That's right, I know there's gonna be people who are listening to this that are and I'm sure
you've met Harry Boyte. But there are scholars that are authors and some of the same content
as Harry and one of them in particular always wants to know, how do students who are like
yourself who do throw themselves into these situations and push themselves to uncomfortable
situations? What what drives you? What is that? Is that just who you innately are or, you know,
how can we tap into that into other people? Or is that just something that you think is just part
of your nature?
A
Anna Cox 28:47
I actually just recently said this in a past discussion, but I said, I am not me without the people
who I surround myself with. I'm only me to an extent, you know, like, I'm great, you know, but
I'm also great because of the people who I surround myself with that my community because
it's so strong and so supportive and pushes me to do more, that I would not be me without
them. In my first couple of years at Augsburg, I had to find my people, I had to find people who
wanted to be engaged and who wanted to be pushed the same amount that I wanted to be,
and I found those people eventually. And, you know, I think it's funny how we kind of make the
joke that like, Oh, they're they're like the same leaders at Augsburg, you know, like they start
out first year and then they always are the same senior year. And it's because we all have we
all come in with, I want to make a change. I want to do more. I want to you know, Have a great
college experience. And then we encourage each other and support each other. And then all of
a sudden, we're doing these really big things at Augsburg. But I think it's because of who you
meet and who you surround yourself with, if you're only surrounding yourself with people who
want to focus on classes, and that is your goal. That is totally okay. But that was not something
that I wanted for myself. And I was with people who were like minded, and who had the same
values and goals that I did.
Katie Clark 30:37
Excellent. Well, the last question is really, is there anything you wanted to add that I didn't ask
you about?
A
Anna Cox 31:03
I think that the two most transformative experiences that I've had on campus was being
involved in the Sabo Center and being involved in student government. Those were the two
transformative places that has made me who I am now. And if I had not been involved in those
two things, I would not be the leader that I am now. So I think that is just kind of where I want
to leave it off.
Katie Clark 31:29
And could you also conclude with telling us the award that you recently won at graduation?
A
Anna Cox 31:38
I got the Marina Christensen Justice Award , which honors a student at graduation who has
been really involved in social justice things and advocating for students. It was, it was a little
surprise that I got it and not because I don't think that I was not that I'm not worthy of it. It's
just there's so many wonderful leaders here. And I think that any one of us could have gotten it.
So it was really humbling that they had chosen me. And that was really exciting.
Katie Clark 32:23
Great, well, thank you so much. So that concludes our interview. And I just want to thank you
for your time.
Show less
Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great questio... Show more
Salma Awil 0:01
Today's date is March 29 2021. My name is Salma Awil and I'm here with
Zack Abdullahi 0:06
Hi, my name is Zakariya Abdullahi And I am 22 years old.
Salma Awil 0:11
So I just wanted to start off. What was your morning like today?
Zack Abdullahi 0:16
Um, that's a great question. Um, I had classes and stuff in the
morning, so I had to, you know, be awake for that. Also, this morning,
I watched the Chauvin trials just to understand what's going on. It
was very interesting. I do want to go into law. So I was like, this is
a really good way to understand what's going on, especially so close.
Ours is like, you know, our city and like, our campus. So yeah, that
was those that took up a big part of my morning. Yeah,
Salma Awil 0:45
they brought their first one witness in today. And I was like, Okay,
I'm gonna watch it. But I kind of got a littel glimpse of what was
going on today.
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah, no,
0:52
Salma Awil 0:53
yeah. So What year are you? for college?
Zack Abdullahi 0:57
I'm a senior. So I'm going to be graduating in like, a month or
something.
Salma Awil
Congrats.
1:01
Zack Abdullahi 1:01
Thank you. Thank you. Yeah.
Salma Awil 1:04
Tell me a little bit about yourself.
Zack Abdullahi 1:07
For sure. So like I said, my name is Zakariya. Um, I was born in
Kenya. So when you were talking about Kenya, I was like, I remember a
little bit of that. But I didn't live in Kenya for too long. I lived
there for like two years. And then I moved to Somalia. And we lived in
kismayo for a while. Me and my mom. And then we moved back to Kenya
for like, a little bit. And then we moved to Uganda. And we lived
there for like two years. Yeah, no, we moved back to Kenya. And I was
like, Oh, my God, this country. So um, yeah, that was that. And then I
came here on is about eight years old. And I've lived here like, since
then.
Salma
A lot
from?
years
Awil 1:41
of traveling a lot back and fourth. So how was it I'm traveling
So you said you came? You came back here when you was eight
old?
Zack Abdullahi 1:50
Yeah. Yeah. moved to America when I was eight,
Salma Awil 1:53
eight. So how was it like going from Somalia to Kenya to here and then
coming back here?
Zack Abdullahi 1:59
Um, it was very experience
Salma Awil
of all
2:01
Zack Abdullahi 2:02
like, yeah, it was very weird, because in Kenya, like, I lived in
Nairobi, in a community. Like little I don't know what it is, but it's
called Eastleigh. And so it's basically a sub section of Nairobi. And
there's a huge Somali community there. So when we left there and went
to Somalia, I didn't know we left because I was like, oh, more
Somalis? Yeah. So like, it wasn't really that different. And then when
we when we went to go live in Uganda, we lived in the capital city
city, Kampala. And we lived in like a majority Somali neighborhood.
But Kampala was a little different. Because there was more like, you
know, non Somalis, and I got to see them. And I remember thinking,
like, because most of most of the people I met were Muslim, but like
they weren't Somali. So I was confused. I was like, how can you be
Muslim and not Somali? Because I thought I'm assuming Somalia was the
same thing. And then I came here, and then that was, yeah, that I got
thrown out the window because I was like, dang, like, no Muslims.
barely any. And yeah, that like, the whole thing was just different.
Cuz in Africa, like, you're just living your best life, like you don't
have to stress about much. And then come here, and it's very
different.
Salma Awil 3:05
So how was it when you came here? And did you fit in with a somali
community or like, slash the Muslim community? How was it?
Zack Abdullahi
Yeah,
3:13
Salma Awil 3:13
you said you had problems with uganda . So coming here from like,
Kenya, you said something about going Somalia to Kenya, and you feel
like you're still at home? Because, you know, with the Somali
community. So coming back here, how was that with? You know, finding
your own community? Like was that hard? Any experiences that you had
with?
Zack Abdullahi 3:31
Yeah, no, that's a good question. Um, yeah. So when I came here,
everybody's like, Oh, your fob, because you're not English. I don't
remember much To be honest, like the first like, year or something,
because I remember it was just like, I could understand English, but I
couldn't understand it that well. So I knew what was being said, but I
didn't know like, how to respond and stuff. And so I think I came like
first second grade or something. And the Somali were like, he's a fob,
like, don't talk to him. So that wasn't, that wasn't like, I didn't
really connect with them as much. And then I went to a, like, a cadaan
school, I guess, public school. And it was just awkward, because like,
I didn't know anything, like I didn't know how to interact with people
nothing. And then I would fight people a lot because I'd be like, Oh,
you're talking shit about my mom. Like, we're gonna fight and so like,
there's just a lot of fights. And yeah, so like, I didn't know
anything. And then my dad took me to a charter school. And it was very
small, like you were talking about earlier. And there it was still
like your fault because I still didn't know English. So yeah, so
they're still like, Yo, dude, you're fob. Like, we're all born here.
Like, you know, speake English. So I was in ESL for like, two three
years, like just trying to learn English, make sure I had that down.
And then after that, things got better because like, it felt like I
was part of like, you know, the society and community cuz like, I have
gotten used to things by them.
Salma Awil 4:52
Okay, so you said he went to a public school to
did you go to? That the two changes from public
transition go was it like hard, even though you
mentioned. So like that to transition like what
like, public to charter cuz. For me it was kind
cultural thing. Yeah. Um, is that same for you?
a charter what schools
to charter? Yeah. that
said it was kind of
made your parents
of more like a
Zack Abdullahi 5:14
I think so because for me like I was just the troublemaker because I
was fighting everybody in their mom and the public schools and my dad
was like, well, maybe he goes to a school for people that look like
him and like, you know, speak Somali a little bit like they can defuse
the situation. So that's why they took me there. And I went to Wilson
Elementary School, which was also I think they had like a Spanish
Immersion program. And the horrible thing is, I was learning Spanish,
and I wasn't learning English. And they're getting tired of me because
you're here to be learning English, not Spanish. So the whole school
is trying to me My dad was tired of it. So they just took me to the
higher ground Academy, which was in St. Paul. And that places Somali
Central. So yeah, and I remember when I first came into that school, I
was like, I saw all the Somali boys. And I was like, Oh, my God, like,
this is amazing. And I remember going up to him be like, hey, do you
want to be friends? And I was like, in third grade or something. And
there would be like, who else's weirdo bro. But after a while, like, I
think like, couple weeks and like it was it was fine. I was still the
fob because like, I still didn't know English that long. But the cult,
like, changing into that, like getting to know people wasn't too bad.
Salma Awil 6:18
So how is it now with the Somali community right now live from like,
he said, he came here at eight till now. So was that any hard finding
like you know, local mosque like masijd finding within your own
community? Have you had any had any hardships with that?
Zack Abdullahi 7:02
I would say not too much. Because my dad lived here before me. My mom
came here. So Excuse me. So he was like, he knew all the masjids. He
knew everything. So when we came here, I kind of just followed his
lead. I had family and cousins that lived here. So like, I got to be
with them and kind of like connect with Somali community there. I
would say the only change I saw really was when I went to high school.
I went to Roseville area High School in Roseville. And there wasn't
that many Somalis there at all. So it was hard like to connect, and I
lived in Roseville. So like, I didn't get to see that many Somalis
ever. And the first time I ever came to Minneapolis, like for more
than like, a couple hours when I was when I moved on campus for
Augsburg, so living in Roseville and going to school, they're like,
I've barely saw Somalis. And so there was a huge disconnect when I
came to Minneapolis here and like, I got to meet Somalis at Augsburg
and Somalis in the community. Because they were like, Oh, you act
white. And you think your white, And you think you're better than us.
And this and that. And I was like, all, you know, like, cuz I feel
like our values, not our values, perse, but like, just kind of the way
we are. Yeah, is they thought they were like, Oh, you don't hold those
values that we hold. And so for me, I'm like, Oh, well, like, I want
to be on time like this, this and that. And like, I remember freshman
year, people were like, Oh, you you want to do this, this and that.
And you think you're better than us. And you think you're not Somali
and blah, blah, blah. I'm just like, cool. But I think the core values
still exist that you know, like, we're Muslims, and we have these
values that you know, we uphold and that type of stuff. But there's
little
Salma Awil 8:34
Yeah, I understand. Okay, so how was it when you came here? Cuz you
said on Roseville for her freshman year? How was it with you know, cuz
he said there was a little disconnect. How did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 8:48
Um, so freshman year, I lived on campus. And I had three other
roommates. One of them my direct roommate was Mexican, and the other
two were Somali. And like I said, like, our culture's, I guess, kind
of like, me, and the other small guys weren't really like, compatible,
just because like, they grew up in Minneapolis, and like, this was
their area until like, they would always have friends over. And for
me, that was like, not like, you can't just have random people like in
the living room and in my bedroom. Now that's so like, we had that
clash. And they'd be like, yo, just chill out, bro. Like, you know,
and that's where the whole like, Oh, you think you're white, all this
part stuck in. So it's just kind of hard to try to connect with people
because it was like, all like, we do these things. And like, you don't
do these things. And you know, it's just weird. But I think after a
while, I was just like, finding my own thing and doing my own thing
and not being like, Oh, I need to find friends or I need to find a
community this and that. And I think now being a senior like, it's
definitely changed where I do have a lot more Somali friends. And I
think it's just about finding like people that you click with, like
you said earlier and then just going from there.
Salma Awil 9:50
Definitely. Okay. So this is kind of on since you're graduating. What
are your future plans, like what do you want to do and why? Yeah,
that's
Unknown Speaker 10:00
where I'm so I'm actually accepted an offer from the U of M, the
Humphrey School, literally right there to start my master's of
development practice in September, so shall be going into
international development working on doing Education Development,
either in Africa or the Middle East. So hopefully, doing that stuff.
So yeah, thank you. So, because, like, I remember being a kid in
Africa and like, be like, my daughter would be like, oh, education is
super important. And when I travel, like, and I go visit, like home
and like mogadishu, or wherever, like I always see, like a lack of
education. And people like need an education so they can build their
country and their selves up. So that's why I'm like, I want to go into
that field and like, dedicate my life to doing that for like, our
communities.
Salma Awil 10:46
Great. MashAllah, amazing, you know, going back home to like, because
that I still going back home again, I see videos, or like my mom
talking about it, saying, you know, we have a lack of education, they
would come here for Yeah, I totally understand. You know, MashAllah.
Congrats on that. So, what other countries? Have you been to? I know,
this is kind of off topic?
Zack Abdullahi 11:09
Yeah. I visited a couple countries, I'd say,
Salma Awil 11:13
like, rather than Uganda and Kenya. And so,
Unknown Speaker 11:15
yeah, I would say, I've been to like, if you Eithopia, Israel and
Palestine, which is a weird one, and then Saudi Arabia and the UAE.
But yeah,
Salma Awil 11:26
so that kind of ties into so how is it from visiting other countries?
Like, did you see other Muslim communities? Did you like, you know,
fit in with, like, you know, how was it from experiencing from
Minnesota from home to other, you know, Muslim communities? Yeah. Was
it a little bit different? Was it like, how did that go for you?
Zack Abdullahi 11:46
Um, I would say in the more Muslim predominant countries, like it was,
it was really easy. In the case of Israel and Palestine, that was very
interesting, because, especially being black. Because like, we went,
like, we went everywhere within the country, like we went up north,
like the south and then. So that was a little awkward, because like,
they had, they hadn't really seen like, too many black people up
there. But when we went to Jerusalem, like you, like, within the city,
like there's like, the Muslim quarters, and the Jewish quarters, and
the Christian quarters, and you're when you're moving around those
like the Muslims, like, I don't know how, like, everybody just knows
they're Somali, I swear to god is weird. It's like that type of blood.
Right? Cuz like I was walking around, and they'd be like, they'd be
like, yo, yo, come here, and they use go up to them. They're like, all
right, like, you're Somali, blah, blah, blah, you know, you see, and I
was like, What? And that's the same thing that happens in Medina. And
like, monka, to like, they just, they just be yelling, like Somalis
and stuff. Yeah, so it's, I think the Muslim community, wherever you
go, is very connected. And I think I was surprised cuz I was like, I
would not be able to tell if somebody was like, you know, Egyptian, or
Palestinian or this or that. Like, I don't know, most people look the
same to me. Like, I'm not gonna lie. So yeah,
Salma Awil 13:00
definitely. Yeah. It is kind of hard to tell kind of people but it's
interesting how you said that you went to Medina? Was it? How they
told you, come here, Come here, and know, your Somali. And so that
was really interesting. Was it like, a whole shock like that? Like,
how did you interpret that? Um,
Zack Abdullahi
13:19
I think, because so many like Somalis do visit Mecca and Medina.
They're used to seeing them. So like, I went with a couple guys from
Augsburg and like other other guys from Minneapolis. If I could study
abroad, they did there. No, it was just like a bunch of sorry. No, no,
it's just a bunch of guys that went together. Through this program
called strung together in Minnesota. You might have heard of it. Yeah.
So like, it's just a bunch of boys. There's like 30 or 40 of us, we
all went there. And then an hour hotel is right next to like all the
shops right next to the prophete masjid. So like, we were to go from
our hotel to the masjid you had to pass by the shopping center And
there was be like, a Samana. Like there would be yelling at the top of
their lungs. And then they'd be like, come here, we have a deal for
you. Okay, blah, blah, blah. And it's just like, it's just super fun.
Because, like, they're just like, you know, doing their thing. And
we're just like, having fun. It wasn't like, anything weird or like,
yeah, I'm trying to try to like scam us or something like that.
Salma Awil 14:17
Okay, so back to Minnesota. Is Minnesota, like the place that you
would, like, bring back come back as a family? Is it like a, I would
say, a safe space for us and you know, traveled in different
countries? Would you like to come back here and start a family?
Zack Abdullahi 14:33
Yeah, I would definitely, I would definitely say that, um, but also
thinking of like, what I would do, like, career wise, I'll be
traveling a lot internationally. So I feel like maybe like, living in
different places would also be nice. But I'm also trying to think of
like if like the inshallah, like having kids and like we're, you know,
like constantly moving them because I hated moving when I was a kid.
But I think Minnesota would definitely be a place just because there's
already that that community, that structure and Then like, you know,
they get to see people like them. They also have a bit of diversity
where like, it's not just Somalis. But another place I always wanted
to live. After visiting is Jeddah in Saudi Arabia, because it's so
beautiful and like, I have family and friends there and I was just
like, like this This place is, you know, so yeah, as definitely like,
I definitely think about that like, like either Jeddah, Somalia. I
don't know, like, I feel like there's too many Somalis to be honest.
And then here, just because like, you know, like, they get to be in
that Islamic, like surroundings in Minnesota, because there's a lot of
Somalis in in Jeddah, like, Saudi Arabia, like Mecca is an hour away.
So it's beautiful. Yeah.
Salma Awil 15:40
Um, so how is it with? I would say, since it's more COVID now, like,
you know, we get used to the COVID with wearing mask? How is that with
you? Like, the everything is my virtual and resume? The How is that
with, you know, interacting with other Muslim communities? Is that Is
it hard to like, even, you know, masjid, you know, going to the
mosque, or anything like that, is it more virtual? Like, how was that
for you? Like, how's that road?
Zack Abdullahi 16:07
Yeah, I remember in March, last year, like my dad, when he left for
Somalia to visit, like, family and stuff. And I was just by myself,
and I was like, you know, like, we still didn't know too much about
COVID. Because we were hearing about it. And then like, once he got
there, they started talking about, like, We're shutting down airports,
in Somalia, all this stuff. And I remember like, being like oh Ramadan
is coming up, and like, I'm gonna spend it all by myself. And that was
just sad. Because I was like, dang, like, usually men who mean him
would go to the masjid and like, you know, do our thing. Like, it was
just like, a routine and like culture that we had. And then, like, the
worst part was just not getting to, like, go to Tel Aviv or anything
like that. It was just like, yeah, you were just stuck in the house. I
was just there by myself and be like, just praying and stuff. But
yeah, that has been, I think the worst part is not having that
community because I think Muslim, like, Islam is surrounded by like,
you know, the core things like having that community, like, that's why
we do Hajj. That's what we do Umrah. I'm not like a lot of these
things we do together as a community, so we can build, you know, that
community up. So when COVID came along, he just ruined all that it was
just super hard. Even now trying to go to the masjid on Fridays, like,
you have to sign up on a website, or you have to be in line
Salma Awil 17:19
some masjid, they give you like a COVID screening or something like
that.
Zack Abdullahi 17:22
Yeah, it's very, like they have a lot of things going on. So like, I
have to try to find the right masjid at the right time and all this.
So that does kind of mess that up on. I remember before COVID started.
A lot of the guys that Augsburg and I would go to this mystery type
just like a mile away. And we would go there for like holidays and
stuff. Like now we can't do that. So like, This definitely just
literally just came along and said we're we're I'm ruining everything.
So
Salma Awil 17:49
COVID COVID did really messed up a lot of things. Yeah. Um, so what do
you look forward to like right now? Like, since the Ramandan is coming
up, you know, since COVID? Are, I think my more masjid right now are
starting to open back up? Yeah. Like, what are your plans for that?
Like, how do you feel?
Zack Abdullahi 18:06
Yeah, um, so my dad is back in my mom's back. So I'm like, this is at
least going to be like, not as lonely as last time, it was awkward. So
I'm excited for that. But also, I think, hopefully, the masjid are
opened up, just like going like with my dad and my friends and just
going through the motions and spending time together. Because I think,
like, even with my cousins, like, last year, we couldn't do anything.
So going through the masijid and spending time with them. It was
just, I think, important. So that's one thing. Hopefully we can like,
interact with more people too, because it's not like, you don't build
like community just in the midst of like, you can build it outside
too. So hopefully we get to do that. Hopefully, Eid does not ruin
because last year, that was horrible. It was terrible. So yeah, I'a,
let things work out, hopefully, hopefully and i'a
Salma Awil 18:56
Okay, so another question I'm going to ask you is, how did your faith
you know, influenced your life as a Somali man in the Muslim
community?
Zack Abdullahi 19:07
Um, I would say when I was like living in Africa and like more Muslim
communities, I guess, like, I was a kid, to be honest, but still,
like, I never had to worry about things. And I think of something my
dad told me where he was like, oh, when I lived in Somalia before the
Civil War and stuff like, like, he didn't see like, so like, for
example, like in the Quarn, like, don't do this, don't do that. And
he's like, oh, like, Who would ever do that? Like, why would people do
that? And he's like, when I came here, like, he's like, I saw, you
know, the things that I really I was oblivious to. And so I kind of
have that sense to where I'm like, when I came here, I'm like, yo,
like, my faith is super important. And I need to hold that dear. But I
think one thing that I absolutely love about Muslims and Islam in
general is like, the generosity part. Like we're always and Somalis
like, specifically like you mentioned this to in your interview. But
like, I don't think I've ever been to like Somalis were like stingy or
weird about things. Like they're always so like welcoming and just,
like you never feel like out of place, you know. And so that
generosity for me is important because I've met so many kind people
like around the world, like, Everywhere I go, like I always meet kind
people. And like, anytime I'm at an airport, and like, there's other
Somalis there, they're always helping each other. Yes. And so like,
that's just like, so beautiful to me. And just to see, like, you know,
that they have that common shared identity and like, they will never
probably see each other again, but like, they care about each other
and like, they have that love for each other regardless. So like,
that's something I want to always have like shout, pass down to my
kids and be like, yo, like, you love people. respect people. And just
always be generous to people because like, if you're closing your
hand, you know, like Allah gives you the risk that's not yours to keep
and you know, try to be stingy with so like, always give and always
love, I think would be something that
Salma Awil 20:55
it's really good to hear. So little going back to what you said
earlier, you talked about how you went to Roosevelt to higher ground I
believe. So did you face any like as a Somali boy did you face any
like hardships? Like not hardships but with your faith with? Did you
feel any or conflicted with going to a public school or compared to a
more charter? Because more charter I would say is more Higherground is
more Somali, I would say that much you know Somali dominant, but
compared to going to a public school? Was your deen you know, your
faith? Was there any compromise or anything like that?
Zack Abdullahi 21:32
Yeah, that's a great question. Cuz I remember specifically. So when we
moved to Roseville, and my parents were thinking of like, where to
send me to school and stuff. A lot of the Somali people are like, Oh,
don't send your son to like, Rosemont high school because like, you
know, there's like, you know, like, gay people. And there's like this
and that, like, there's a weird white people and like, school shooters
and all this stuff that they're talking about. And so my parents were
really scared, but they're also like, do like, you know, he's, he's
getting to be like an adult and like, he needs to make decisions for
himself. So they let me go there. And like I said, there was barely
any Somalis in my freshman year, there was like, five of us like three
girls and two boys that were Somali. And I remember like, possible, it
was always weird, because like, I would walk in the hallways, and I
will see people literally eating each other's face and like just
making out doing random things. Like, I remember like seeing people
just disrespecting like their teachers and like, parents in so many
different things. And I would always think to myself, like my dad saw
me like, I would not make it that far. And so like, there's definitely
like clashes where I was like, you know, and the hardest part was
like, trying to pray in high school.
Salma Awil
Yeah, I
22:39
Zack Abdullahi 22:39
think college was easier. But high school I remember telling my gym
teacher, like, all my friends have to go pray like, he was only on
this one kid. She'd be like, no, you're just trying to skip out on
gym, or like math teacher would be like, Oh, you're bad at math. So
you're just trying to skip all like, bro, like, I don't like a little
you take 5,10 minutes max. Like, just to go pray. I remember we had to
go through this whole thing to like, you know, make sure we can pray
and like get prayer spaces and all this stuff. There was never MSA at
our school. So we had to start then, like, try to build community
there. So it was definitely difficult just because, like, it's so easy
to like, you know, like, just go into that, like, Oh, it's easier to
give up than to continue to resist and fight. So yeah,
Salma Awil 23:20
it is hard with the public school to like talk about you know,
religion wise, because back in your time, not saying that your old. It
is really hard to talk about, like prayer, even with right now with my
own. Like when I just graduated high school, it was a little bit more
teachers were like now getting used to like kids praying, you know,
kids getting out of class. But yeah, it was difficult, honestly, I
would say.
So, what are you so coming to freshmen here? I was at augsburg
university? Um, did you like, were you involved? Any other like, like
MSA activities, or any, you know, did you were you involved in any
school activities? Can you tell me a little bit more on that?
Zack Abdullahi 24:02
Yeah. Um, so as I mentioned, like, a little bit ago, In high school,
we started the MSA. And that, like, we started that my junior year,
and I was president for the two like, junior senior year. And so, by
the time when I was done with that, I was like, I'm doing student
organizations. I'm doing all that stuff. I never want to see them
again. So when I came to Augsburg, I was very anti, like student orgs.
And I was just like, I'm not doing this. But I did try to go to like
MSA events and stuff just to like, build that community because I felt
like I wasn't that close to the Somalis. And, you know, I think I had
a lot more like Mexican, like Latin ex friends than I did. And so I
was like, because of my roommate was Mexican. So I was like, all I
need to build that. That's where I went. I went to some PASU events.
And then yeah, and then sophomore year, I was kind of gone most of the
time out the country or like out of state, so I didn't get to do that.
And then last year, I ran for president of PASU. And then I became
president and then that's kind of been really like, that's been most
of my Invand then outside of that just like doing like scholarship
stuff and like fellowship stuff on campus. But yeah,
Salma Awil 25:07
yeah, what is PASU?
Zack Abdullahi 25:10
Oh, my bad, it's Pan African Student Union. Okay, great.
Salma Awil 25:13
Is there anything that you want to conclude or that you want to add
that we haven't talked about?
Zack Abdullahi 25:21
No, I think you did a pretty good job.
Salma Awil
Okay.
25:24
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Show less
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
... Show more
1
Winston Heckt
Narrator
Citlaly Escobar
Interviewer
Minneapolis, Minnesota
March 7, 2020
Narrator
Interviewer
-WK
-CE
CE: Hello! Today is March 7, 2020 and my name is Citlaly Escobar. I am here today at
Augsburg University in Minneapolis, Minnesota to interview Winston Heckt about his
experience and time at Augsburg University. Winston Heckt graduated in 2019 from Augsburg
University. So Winston, thank you for coming today! l appreciate you taking time out of your
day to do this interview. So, in order to start, can you please say your name and where you were
born?
WH: Yeah! My name is Winston Heckt and I was born in Minneapolis.
CE: What are your pronouns?
WH: I use he/him/his pronouns.
CE: Did you grow up in Minneapolis?
WH: No, I grew up in Anoka, Minnesota. So, I was born in Minneapolis because my dad works
at Abbott-Northwestern Hospital-so I was born there-but nope; grew up in Anoka, Halloween
capital of the world. Spooky place. Kind of-pretty conservative/pretty white-kind of area. And
so-as I was kind of bouncing out of that, looking into like where I was going to go for
college-I looked at a couple of other places-
CE: Oh, wait, wait. Do you mind ifwe backtrack a little bit?
WH: Yeah, let's backtrack!
CE: Yeah, yeah!
WH: I'm slipping. Yeah, absolutely.
CE: So, how was your childhood like? You mentioned briefly about it, but growing up in
Anoka?
WH: It was good. Anoka's a good place, I think, for-well okay, I'm kind of a liar.
CE: (laughs)
WH: Well actually, I grew up-like
Minnesota-
technically, the house where I lived is in Andover
CE: Oh.
WH:-which is right next to Anoka. I went to Anoka High School and like middle schools-I
was in the Anoka School District, so I just like to tell for clarity and ease of conversation-I tell
people I am from Anoka. I feel a much tighter bond to Anoka. But, it's a good area because it's
kind of like-well, I mean it's-okay so like-politics and everything aside, just like
geographically, it's you know-it's like real, cusp of suburb and country where like-like I lived
thirty seconds away from a turkey fann.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, just like wide-open spaces. Lots of-you know-wildlife and nature; so like, a great
place for little kids to be-you know-running around and playing outside; that kind of thing. So
like, I had a pretty good like-and also, I was pretty like-I'm mixed heritage: my mom's Black
and my dad's white; and my parents are divorced, so I was pretty much raised by my white
father, so I was pretty much raised white. He kind of had-took kind of-I suppose, a colorblind
approach to things, you know. And he was kind of a conservative dude, so I like didn't like
fully-I didn't necessarily know about-like it wasn't in my-kind of scope of understanding
what was quite so shitty about Anoka. I like knew it on an instinctual level because I am
also-so I am pansexual and Anoka was pretty-a pretty homophobic place. There was-when I
was-it was like a little bit before my time-I was alive I guess, but I was kind of like a young
kid while it was going on-but there was like a string of suicides by like young kids; middle
schoolers, high schoolers. Some who were LGBTQIA community; others who weren't, but were
bullied by people calling them-you know-slurs and all that. (Laughs) So, not a real great place
to be for that kind of thing. So like, that part of myself was something that I had-had kind of
like unknowingly just closed off until I got out of that environment and I was like, Okay, I don't
have to have to-there's so much more to like, who people can be and I can just kind of live life
as I see fit. But so, growing up in Anoka was pretty solid, you know. I had a good time; it wasn't
too bad of a-too bad of a childhood. No.
CE: Mmhmm. Well, that's good! How was your education like there?
WH: It was-I mean jeez, it's public education. I went to public school and so-I mean-well,
it was kind of-it was alright; I was kind of an outsider. I think one because I was kind of a
weird kid and two, because I was one of like-other than my siblings-two Black kids in my
elementary school.
CE: Oh, shit.
2
WH: And like, the other kid had a learning disability so I wasn't even around him all the time
like all the time, right; so most of the time, I was the only Black kid around. And so, I got
like-yeah, people-I was really kind of ostracized and shit by my peers, so I kind of became a
recluse. When my-so, my parents got divorced when I was like-kindergarten or first grade, I
kind of forget-real young and my mom moved into a house that was really close to my dad;
didn't have to switch schools or anything, which was real nice. But she ended up moving to
Arizona partway through my sixth-grade year, and at that point, that was when I switched and
started going through Anoka school and stuff. So, that kind of presented me an opportunity to
like get away from my bullied past and kind of like start fresh, you know? And so, what I did
then was kind of close myself off and keep a low profile and hope to not get bullied and kind of
focused in on school. And so-I mean like, I liked school. It was alright (laughs). Oh jeez; you
know, the crap they teach you. They don't teach you the important stuff. Like, I don't know how
to do taxes; I don't know how to balance a budget; I don't know how to sew-I don't have those
decent skills. The history that they teach is really suspect-I put that in air-quotes (both
laugh)-you know, that kind of crap. So you know, your pretty mainstream education. But like I
think Anoka is a pretty-I'm not sure where they sit in terms of ranking of schools, but I think
it's a pretty solid-like it was a solid place to get an education and more or less, I did okay.
Really kind of the only place-math I was kind of-I was failed. I was left behind as early as
elementary school. Like, I don't know how to do-I can't multiply in my head. I have to do like
the addition the long way, because my third-grade elementary school teacher -whose name I
don't know, maybe it was Larson? It doesn't really matter (laughs)-she was a jerk! She didn't
mean how to like-yeah, and you know right, that's kind of how the school system goes. Instead
of sticking with it and teaching people stuff, it's like, Hey; we gotta move along here so if you
don't learn it in time, it's kind of like hey! Shit out of luck. And then that-I ended up being
okay, but then my academic advisor-somehow, I got lost in the shuffle and before you'd take
Algebra Two, there was like-I think it's called Algebra with Quadratics or something like that.
Well, I didn't take that class because no one told me I had to take that class--or it would be
smart to because it wasn't technically required; just kind of like heavily-it would be smart to
take it. So, I rolled right out of Geometry into Algebra Two without the quadratics crap, so I
didn't know what the hell I was doing! And the teachers I had for that were like the two worst
math teachers in the whole school and so, I barely scraped by. It kind of tanked my GPA and that
kind of put a chip in my shoulder so when I ended up at Augsburg-because of like oohh, you
know-Summa Cum Laude-Summa, is that the highest one? Yeah, it is Summa. So I think
because-perhaps because my academic dreams were dashed in high school, I felt like I had to
compensate in college.
CE: Oh.
WH: Yeah, I'm really getting off.
CE: No!
WH: What did you even ask me? I don't even know what I'm talking about (laughs).
3
CE: No, that is perfect! I mean my net question was just going to ask-can you briefly describe
your high school experience?
WH: Yeah, sure! So, I like-my first year in high school like-I was pretty-so like I said, I
pretty kind of like a recluse when I switched over to Anoka. And slowly-from like seventh to
eighth grade, into ninth grade-kind of-sort of like, come out of my shell and start to feel
myself more and-my ninth grade English teacher and-there's an acting elective; those two
teachers really helped me. Han environment where I felt comfortable to bust out and-you
know-try on myself and be confident. So I kind of went from like-and like still really had a
small core of friends and kind of-like every year, got more confident in myself and all that,
whatever. And by like senior year ofhighschool, like I was-I was Homecoming Royalty and all
that crap.
CE: Oh, wow!
WH: Like, other people tell me that I was cool and popular but like I wasn't-I don't
really-like, what matters is like friends and stuff, and I didn't-I wasn't in with the cool kids
really, like. I was like-oh shoot no; now I don't know how to phrase it. The phrase I had used
kind of ableist language-I was like the lowest-like the threshold from like not cool to cool.
Maybe at the end I was cool, but I like bottom, right; minimal, you know, that kind of crap. So
I'm a lifelong musician and stuff and my band ended up being well-known-kind of-by the end
of it; I think that kind of had to contribute to it. But my god, my high school experience; jeez, I
don't know. I was kind of like-you know, high school is learning how to play the game. You
know, it's like they don't teach-you skills; they don't teach you-you know-super important
stuff, how the world works or how to make a resume or any of that kind of stuff. They just kind
of teach you how to take orders (laughs), you know? So I learned how to take orders. And I
also-by the end-kind of learned that it was kind of bullshit a little bit too; thankfully, I was
aware. I also was a-I played football from third grade until like-through high school. And
Anoka High School's football program-at least while I was there; I think before and after-was
fucked up. Like really kind of-like, sadistic and emotionally manipulative to people and like
just the rigorous-how they pushed our bodies and stuff, and forcing us to weights really hard,
but not really-like they paid lip service to having good form, but it was also go-go-go (snaps)
fingers). Like, they didn't really want you to have good form, so it was kind oflike, nah. Not a
chill place. The football team-a lot of those other guys-like Jesus, those are some of the most
homohobic-like racist assholes, you know, I've encountered (laughs). So, learning how to
like- survive and adapt in that kind of environment and flying under the radar and not-you
know, rub anybody the wrong way-was kind oflike-that was one of the more valuable things
I got out of high school, as screwed up as that is. Like that was something that these children are
being put through but-yeah, taught me the skills necessary in those regards. But I don't
know-I really liked English. I liked art stuff. I was-I've played the saxophone since I was in
sizth-I guess I don't really these days, but sixth grade through high school-and Anoka has a
really good music program, so that really nice, right, and we were good. You know, kind of took
it for granted how nice it is to get a break in the middle of a day and just like be with a bunch of
people and make music together-you know?-in this very collaborative, group setting. That's
something that I kind of miss, you know? Yeah.
4
Oh jeez, I'm trying to think what else-what
I was a pretty- I was a pretty dorky kid.
else was high school like, you know? Yeah,
CE: (laughs).
WH: I wasn't really a rule breaker; like-with
crap, I learned how to play by the rules.
high school and the football team, and all that
CE: Yeah.
WH: And then-where the rules were kind of bull-you know, especially by the end, like my
senior year where I first started drinking, smoking, and staying out late and all that kind of
stuff-oh yeah, badass over here!
CE: (laughs).
WH: But like yeah, you know; you get used to people telling you like, "This shit's the worst
thing on the planet! You do this shit and it's just terrible for you!" and you do it, and you're okay.
You know, you're fine. It's not like God's greatest gift or anything; it's not like-I don't want to
glorify that kind of crap. But it's-it is what it is, you know? And so you're like, okay. Maybe
these people-they're full of shit about that; what else are they full of shit about, you know?
CE: A gateway drug to knowledge.
WH: Exactly (both laugh).
CE: So then, how did you come to Augsburg University? Like, what was your college process
like? Why did choose-?
WH: Yeah. It was kind of by-like in retrospect, it's really kind of like-I really just kind of like
fell into Augsburg. I've been makirig movies since I was kid and I knew I wanted to film school
since I was like a teenager-a young teen. So it was kind of a matter of like-so like I said, I
looked-I knew I wanted to go to film school, so I was looking at places. I don't know, didn't
really try-like UCLA or NYU, or those; I didn't even consider them. I didn't feel like I had the
academics to get in or kind of, like, wherewithal. It was kind of between Augsburg and DePaul,
in Chicago-and I got accepted into both. The only reason I went to Augsburg was like-they
gave me more financial aid; it would have cost me more to go to DePaul. But also-you know, I
visited DePaul and Chicago's cool-and maybe one day-but at that time, it was just-it's all so
tall and there's so many people; I was very overwhelmed and I wasn't sure-I was like, I don't
know; maybe sticking in Minnesota for college was more my tempo. So, Augsburg then was
kind of like the only place I applied to. There aren't a lot of place that have a full-four year film
program in the state; that's kind of unique. Like, the UMN doesn't have one.
CE: Yeah.
5
WH: They are film majors there, I've since then learned but people build their own major, and
they didn't advertise-like, I didn't know that was an option so I was like, okay; I can't go to the
U, because I can't do what I want to do there. So, Augsburg had-they had a film program that
used actual film, like true celluloid. So, I went down for a visit and I liked it alright and they left
me in and they gave me decent financial aid so I like, Okay; guess it's Augsburg! So I ended up
enrolling at Augsburg.
CE: Yeah. What were your expectations?
WH: Well, you know (laughs)-the whole 'big city feel in a small campus,' was something that
was kind of pushed on me and like knowing it was a very liberal space and like-knew enough.
You know, 2015-1 was just starting to become more conscious like-you know, I'm thinking
about Black Lives Matters, it's happening-and Eric Gamer, specifically, that sticks in my mind
as kind of like-I mean like, nobody deserves to get killed by the police like that; but that was
like so-that was the first one I encountered so blatantly-this person did nothing wrong
deserving of being killed for it, right-that kind of started to change my trajectory. I was
interested in-you know, cool, I would go to this place and it's like one of more friendly spots;
it's like the most diverse private school in Minnesota; like really friendly to the LGBTQIA
community and like, okay; cool! Expecting it to be this haven of open-mindedness and just
like-whatever. I was expecting-I thought the film classes-they really sold it as a hands-on,
small-port community; more collaborative than competition-based-it was kind of how things
were presented to me. So, those were kind of my expectations. You know, and there's also just
the cultural expectations at large of what college is supposed to be for people-in pop culture
and what not. It was like okay; I guess this what it will be.
CE: What are the pop culture representations?
WH: Well, you know, partying and all that kind of crap-not that I did too much of that crap.
But yeah, you know-eat ramen, that kind of-you know, that kind of 'college-student' kind of
crap. It was kind of like all I understood about it. My older sister-two years older than me, so
she was already-yeah, two years older than me, went to the U, so she-I had some idea of what
college was like; but in retrospect, could have asked her more about it before going into it on my
own.
CE: So when did you enter? 2015?
WH: Yeah, so fall of2015 was when I first came to Augsburg.
CE: And you graduated spring of2019?
WH: Yeah.
CE: Oh. So, did Augsburg fulfill these expectations you had?
6
WH: I mean·(laughs), yes and no. Certainly as a haven for liberals, but like what that means
compared to like what is promised-you know-are kind of two different things. And like
also-I mentioned Eric Gamer-like I was just becoming aware of just like-where my-you
know, I knew I was Black but fully understanding the weight of that and like what that means
and like, having not really been around alot of other Black people-or anybody that wasn't
white, really-· was kind of like-Augsburg was a time where I became racially conscious;
politically conscious, you know. And so-I mean it definitely kind of fulfilled my-I mean I was
open-minded enough to receive it, you know, what Augsburg had to offer me. I mean just in the
first couple days of like, welcome weekend or whatever, I was exposed to a lot of things that I
had never even heard about and now, they're just kind of like pretty standard (laughs) stuff. You
know, being conscious of pronouns and things-you know, I don't think too terrible hard to start
listening and being mindful of. So, that was lit; like I am glad I went to Augsburg. I'm probably
going to end up shitting on Augsburg hereCE: (laughs).
WH:-quite a bit, or things about this place-but it was a good place for me. I'm glad I came
here. I mean, who knows what would happen if anything else happened. Like, if I went to
DePaul-who I was or where I would be. But like-nah, this was a really integral part of where I
ended up these days. So like-the film program was like (sighs) was ultimately-not-leaves
a
lot-left a lot to be desired. I kind of kept waiting for like-because like, there aren't alot of film
majors at Augsburg and so-a lot of the film classes are-it's really not until you're like an
upperclassman that you're in film classes that are just film majors, and even then, that's kind of
rare. So most of the time, it was like-it'd be these business-like the first class you take,
Film-whatever-,
it was like thirty-something people or whatever, and maybe ten of us were
film majors. By far, most of the people were like, Okay; I'll take an easy credit where I can just
sit and watch movies. You know what I mean? So, it was kind of disappointing because I wanted
to just jump in and let's get rolling here! Like, I don't think chemistry majors are sitting in
classes where it's mostly art students that are in their introduction to like what their program is
going to be. I mean (snaps fingers), you kind of hit the ground running and it's not really like
how things happen at Augsburg-which is, you know, alright; forces you to get creative and
· work-learn to work with not a lot. But I wish there was more a-yeah, more of a focus on like
(laughs), getting cameras in people's hands and getting them to make stuff. You know, you can
sit in a room and read theory and make movies-you know, that's important stuff if you're going
to study film and movie making and to be-like the best thing that Augsburg's film program did
for me was just-I always loved movies; my whole family loves movies-like my mom was a
film major and I have been making movies since I was kid. So like, a lot of love there. But
like-Augsburg-my
time here; really kind of the program-it's still-really kind of hit home
the importance of being, you know, conscious of the impact of shit that you make because stuff
doesn't exist in a vacuum. Whether you're consciously thinking of these things or not, the impact
is going to be what people take away from it; it's there. You know, like death to the
author-doesn't necessarily matter if you-if that's your intent and purpose going into it because
if that's what people are taking away-so I'm glad I learned that and yeah-you know, movies
are good fun. I'm not trying to make it into Hollywood or some shit; I don't have an interest in
that-that kind of making movies. I like to do it-you know, with friends; getting around, having
7
a good time. You know, the pleasure is in the process for me and like-I haven't a lot of
experience in a more professional setting, but I've had a couple. They were exciting and they
were kind of fun; but you know, it wasn't like how I like to make them. Where was I going when
I started with that thoguht? Jeez. (laughs) Film program-yeah they-my dream film program
would be you mix-because most of the time, whether it was a theory class or a production
class-really, I think it should just-like, my best semester for film was like when I was taking a
production class and a theory class. They weren't related to each other-the professor's weren't
working together-but you know, I was taking what I was learning in one class and applying it to
the other and it's like-the projects I was working on for both of them-it was the best, you
know; to be learning what's going on behind the stuff and kind of like-how to apply it and get
out and make stuff. So I think from day one, they should be getting cameras-even if it's just
like crap camcorders; it doesn't really matter if it's 4k or whatever, if it looks nice-just get
people conscious of what they're doing with moving images and just get them making stuff they
want to make. You know (snaps fingers), all the time just go, go, go.
I also (clears throat)-my degree is in film and communication studies and that's because
about a month before class started, I got an email from the director of the Honors Program,
Phillip Adamo-former director of the Honors Program-and it was just like, Hey! You know,
you're academically interesting; you kind of got maybe what we're looking for and you should
think about being in the Honors Program! And like-because like, I didn't think I was some kind
of burnout or anything, but because my GPA had been kind of tanked from those math classes I
took in high school-seeing myself as a Honor student, you know, is like wow; the highest
academic rigor. That's not how I saw myself. I knew I was smart but, you know, being smart and
being good at school (laughs) are not always the same thing; so, I kind of ignored it. You know;
whatever. And then, he sent me another email-wait, I think the deadline passed for applying.
It's like, Okay, you know, I guess it's not going to happen; no skin off my back. And then they
send me another email saying, Hey! Even though it's after what we said, it's not too late if you
want to! And I was like. Damn! They emailed me twice? Why not! and I was like, Sure, I'll do it.
And so, that began (laughs) my illustrious career in the Honors Program and really-that kind
of-big part of what radicalized me, I think-my experience in the Honors Program in my time
here at Augsburg at large.
The Honors Program, your first year, you take at least two classes-I think you can take
more if you want if you take-I don't know if they're still calling them-when I was doing it, it
was Scholar Citizen and Liberating Letters.
CE: Yes.
WH: So yeah (laughs). And so, that Honors class was the first class I ever took in college;
Monday-Wednesday-Friday, eight am.
CE: Scholar Citizen?
WH: Scholar Citizen with Larry Crockett, at the time. And Larry-he was a liberatrian and you
know (laughs). But okay, my perspective going into that class right-like I too, at the time,
didn't know-I didn't know anything about class consciousness or really what capitalism was or
any of these other things. I knew-because my dad was more conservative, I knew Democrats
8
were shit; but I also wasn't totally-you know, rocks for brains (both laugh), so I knew
Republicans were ass too so-at the time, the appeal of liberatarism-Larry and I were on a
similar wavelength, I think, in terms of what things should be. Me being eighteen and him being
middle-age, plus.
CE: Ancient.
WH: But like-at the time-like, that class was kind of a shit show. But similar to-kind of like
how I left Anoka and really opened myself up and reflect on my time there and really started to
realize how screwed up things were there-similar kind of thing in this class. I knew it was wack
(laughs), and some of the people in there were wack, but I don't know-I still do genuinely think
like in a vacuum, what Larry was trying-what I think he was trying to do-at least what he
stated what he tried to get people to do what to get people to question their beliefs and you know,
think critically about everything and think about different newspoints. And you know, that's all
good and fine and dandy. I think his really kind of main point-I don't know if it changes year to
year-but he was really about like-my time with him was about the danger of ideology and
becominging like an ideologue and stuff and stuff; it's like, you can't escape being
non-ideological. Being non-ideological is, in itself, an ideology; you can't really escape that. So
it was kind of like-Larry, himself, kind of became the example of the shortcomings of getting
too blind about one's ideology. He was only nice to me; he wasn't not so nice to others,
particularly the women of color in those classes when it came down to grade. But, for me, that
was the first-so that was the first class I took. And that semester, with all my other classes, got
4.0's in everything and I was like, Oh shit! Holy fuck! And it was because those classes were
super I think and you know, (laughs) I wasn't taking Chemistry 101 or whatever; you know, the
hard stuff where it's like a certain percentage of people will fail this class, bar and all-that
bullshit.
But so-being in the program in the spring, the second class, Liberating Letter, was
taught by Bob Graven who became my academic advisor and was kind of a gateway into-like if
I didn't take that class, I don't think I would have become a communications major. I was
thinking about-I knew I wanted to have a backup plan because I didn't know what the hell I
was doing. I knew I wanted to go into film school because I knew that I wanted-like I just liked
movies so much and have been making them so much, and at that time, I had the naive belief that
if you got a job doing what you love, it would be chill. That's not the case (laughs), but that's
what I thought. So like, I ultimately knew that if I didn't try-if I didn't go to film
school-whether I ended up making movies or not, or even being involved in any of that kind of
stuff-I'd always regret it so you know, I got to do this. So I was like-I knew I needed to have
something other than film and I knew I could pull it off because film was one of the smaller
majors on campus. I didn't end up taking any business classes (laughs), but I think I was like a
business minor for my first two semester, or at least my second-I think my first semester I was
just a film major and I think my second semester I was like, Maybe I should take some business
classes; that's an easy minor. But then I took that class with Bob-and he was in the
communications department; a communications guy-and I really like that class and his style or
whatver and so I was like, Okay; maybe communications! And so, I got into it and so, my
sophomore year was when I started actually taking classes and really enjoyed it. Communication
is a good-you know, everything is communication.
9
CE: Yes (both laugh).
WH: That's what they teach you. And it's-you know, it's something that we do all the time so I
think it's easy-like why I would take classes-that would be like taking a class on breathing;
it's kind of bullshit, right? It's pretty self evident! But it's like, that's not the case; and it's like a
discipline that mixes-kind of like, psychology and sociology; kind of flavor and so-I'm
curious about people and how they work, and stuff like that so it was a good fit for me. Yeah.
What else am I going to say-you got-that's a solid break. I saw you write something
down-you have a question?
CE: No, I mean-one thing I just want to ask you too is that you mentioned the Honors
Program. I just-hold on, let me-so I guess, can you describe one highlight and difficulty of
every year you had? Freshmen year, you briefly mentioned it was really impactful on your end,
but just like-I guess were the most memorable highlights every year and maybe ohhh [editor's
note: not so much]?
WH: Oh, good question. Jeez. I think probably-my first year of college, definitely the hardest
to think of a low-light. I had my least levels of commitment-well, no, that's pretty easy. During
welcome weekend, they had these-you know, they break you into these neighborhoods. You
know, force people into settings where they force people to get to know people; you know, team
builder-kind of pit-the-neighborhood-against-each-other kind of stuff and so, they had this
kind of obstacle course thing-these inflatable obstacle course thing in Murphy Square and my
team was down a person. So I was designated, go-through-twice person and so-we ended up
losing (both laugh). Anyways, later we-maybe it took like an hour, I don't know-it's over,
time has passed; we're like done, walking back, and I was like, Oww, my wrist is kind
of-feeling like-you know, not sprained; what am I trying to say? You know, you just like jam
it; kind oflike eesh [editor's note: noise of pain]. You know, let that heal up over a couple of
days. So I'm like, you know-okay, I'll wait this one out and like, a week goes by; a week and a
half and like, okay. It's not getting any better and it's not getting any worse; it really didn't hurt
that bad. It really just like-it really just kind of-really hurt when I rotated my wrist and there
was kind of like a clacking sound so I was like, Okay; maybe I should get it checked out by a
professional. And by the time I ended up sitting down with a doctor, I think a couple of weeks
had passed and so I go in, I tell him my symptoms, and he like presses his hand up against my
wrists and has me rotate it, and there's no clacking. And so like-he's like, Yeah. In ten seconds,
this guy had diagnosed [that] I tore the ligament in my wrist somehow-it's actually like a
common injury for golfers and I guess normallyCE: (laughs), I'm sorry, that's so funny.
WH:-(laughs) I just remember him telling me that and like, fuck golf, but he was amazed
because normally, it's pretty painful-it's like something you notice. It's something you like, oh
huh. But for the life of me, I didn't-like, there wasn't a moment I was going through the
obstacle course and I like landed-caught myself and said, Ohh rough, jeez. That's what I did it!
It was afterward I was like, Oh, I must have screwed it up there. And like, if I had gone in right
away, they could have just like put me in an arm's cast and it would have healed itself up. But
10
because I had waited too long, it was like too damaged and so, they had to take membrane from
the top of wrist-like extra membrane-and tie together a new ligament. So I was like in a
cast-from like November until like-I think I had it off before class was out, so like March or
April.
CE: Wow.
WH: So like, most of the year (laughs). Kind of a bummer. I supposed that was probably the
lowlight-maybe living in Urness. Urness sucks. Augsburg's Residence Life Department-what
they force students to do with the meal plan crap is just like ridiculously expensive and just kind
of like-sus [editor's note: suspect]. The buildings are not great; probably moldy and all that
kind of crap (laughs).
CE: Yeah
WH: So that wasn't good.
CE: Urness is the freshmen dorm, right?
WH: Yes. Urness is the freshmen dorm-first year dorm. Except there was so many first years
for me, that there was spillover. So some of the first-years lived in Mort but I was unlucky and I
was up in Urness. And I guess a highlight-hmm. Honestly, maybe it would be my time in the
program because there was really-those classes anyways were really just-heady, thought-kind
of question stuff, so that was really kind of up my alley. Philosophy-stuff. So you know,
yeah-real easy to show up and be active when it's a topic you care about. Sophomore year, the
lowlights get easier.
CE: (laughs) Oh.
WH: It's 2016, so like the whole presidential election, you know. That was like another
radicalizing force in my life-everything going around with that. I like-like election night, I
found out my mom had just left an abusive-what I found out that night was an abusive
relationship. Like, sneak out of the house and shit. So I went up to one of the local smoke spots
where stoners go and like-when I left, Hillary was up big and then, we like got there and sat
and my mom called me. And I find all this out, have a conversation, we walk back, and I walk
back and by that time-maybe an hour had passed?-and like, Trump was for sure going to win
at this point and it was like Aww, fuck. So like, things change (laughs), things change. That was
kind of a big awakening, kind of, for me. And also, that was part of my lowest points as a film
major. I was just kind of feeling-like those classes that I took, I wasn't too interested in; I was
just kind of feeling like-not quite out of place; out of place isn't quite right, but kind of just
like-I don't want to like; I don't know. You just need a camera and ideas and you go out and
make a movie; that's all you need. But like, Augsburg's film equipment and all that stuff isn't the
most robust; you know, it's pretty, kind of, scrappy, which is kind of cool; I like that vibe. But so,
yeah-it was like scrappy stuff and like-a couple of-I liked some of the film professors but
some of the other ones I was just like-they weren't great. It's one thing to know what you're
11
doing, and it's another thing to teach what you do; and so, I just like jeez. What am I doing?
These classes aren't that great; I don't really feel like I'm doing that great in them. And that was
the only year-that was the year I got a B? Yeah, that was like the only semester I got anything
lower than a 4.0 was that year. Which is like-I don't know, I had somehow-I just kind of like
felt-because going into college, especially as a film major, GPA doesn't fucking matter. And it
still doesn't out of college; nobody asks me about my GPA, it's not getting me anything. Grad
school is maybe a different story but like, I didn't really care; you know, I'm just going to give it
my best and the GPA I get is the GPA I get. And then that first semester I got that 4.0 and then,
the second semester I got a 4.0 and it's like, let's see how long I can keep this going. So by the
end of my time, I really cared only because it was like, Geez. I made it this far; is it going to be
this class that finally does it? That would be kind of like-you know, all the prior struggle would
then be kind of like-pointless or whatever. I think what else-what else is sophomore year?
That was kind of a rough year.
Oh fuck. I mean jeez, I lived in a floorhouse that year too with a bunch of other people in
the Honors Program, and that was just like not a good living arrangement. A floorhouse is
fourteen people sharing a-almost like their own wing of a dorm. You have one shared living
space; two big bathrooms with multiple stalls-think like public-bathrooms looking kind of
bathrooms-and then like a big old kitchen with two large refrigerators and like, a giant stove
and a whole bunch of cabinet space and stuff. If it's the birds-eye view of the floorplan, the
bathrooms are in the center of the donut and the kitchen is in the lower-right and the living,
communal space is right above the kitchen and the rest of it-kind of c-shaped-was where the
rooms are. And there were only two single rooms; everybody else had to have a roommate and
so like-just living with that many people and just sharing all of that-because it was a shared
communal space and I had a roommate in my room as well-I just didn't have-it was very rare
you had any kind of actual alone time in a space like that. And that is something I value and
really need, so that just kind of takes its toll after awhile.
Also, I don't want to come at people too much, but I was the only Black-no, that's
not-Briana was also in there, jeez! But she was smart; she was never there. She lived there; she
slept there; but other than that, she was never in there and that was the best thing anybody could
have done. And Sam-jeez. But he also-my RA [editor's note: Resident Advisor]-he was
never there either (laughs). He was-that was good. He was a good RA. Anyways (phone
ringing in background), everybody else was white. White (emphasis on h); you know, that kind.
So you know-it was that point in my life where-especially after the election-I like
to--discuss, debate-I like to talk about things; I don't shy away from that. Kind of like, coming
into differences of opinions; conflicts on things with like people that like-you know, we're all
liberal; we're all Augsburg liberal, kind of "bubble" was the buzzword of that time-and that's
when I started to see where the cracks in that are and it's like-it's not enough to be-like being
liberal isn't really all that great of a thing to be. Right, it's the whole, vague progressivism calls
for diversity and inclusion that don't have any analysis for power dynamics or hierarchy or
structures. And like, the other people that lived there were liberal so like-I like-yeah, living
with them and bouncing ideas off of them and stuff also contributed-I was like okay. So I am
not like-maybe I'm not a liberal, right. Because going into Augsburg, I was like, Okay, maybe I
can be liberal. Like after my first year I was like, Okay, chill. After that year, I was like, Okay. I
am definitely not a conservative but I am like, you know; there's something beyond all of this. I
12
had also read-maybe
States.
a highlight of that year, truthfully-is
a Peoples History of the United
CE: By Howard Zinn?
WH: It was-yeah, by Howard Zinn. After I graduated from high school, my mom-in my grad
party, my mom gave it to me. She was like, "Now that you've got your public education, get
educated," you know. And she never read it-I don't know how it got on her radar, but
yeah-one of the best gifts she gave me because that really kind of exposed-I like finished
reading it around the time the election happened too. It was like a lot of things folded into each
other and happened in rapid succession there where like-I kind of just started to broaden my
scope even further.
Junior year (exhales). Junior year was rough. Only surpassed by senior year by how hard
it was.
CE: Yeah.
WH: I like-had personal stuff going on in my life that sent me down a deep, deep depression
and so-right, struggling through that and being a student-that shit ain't easy (laughs). And I
also-so like, we entered that floorhouse; we all were friends-several people were dating each
other-
CE: Oh, no!
WH: Big, big yike. And-by the end of that-I don't think anybody-nobody was still together
and a lot of friendships-we definitely weren't all collectively still friends; people still had
friends but things kind of splintered. My junior year had all this-I kind of lost the friends I
gained as a first year in college and had all this other crap going on, so that was kind of rought.
I'm trying to think of a highlight-yeah, that's easy! So like junior year, that's when I was
having that semester when I was taking both those film classes and so-I was feeling
academically, at the time. I had some of my best film classes and that's when I like first-the
more professional set was that spring; like really cool.
And then I worked for Residence Life that year. Let's talk about that-if we're talking
about the history of Augsburg, we got to talk about what that perspective is like; get that in the
book. That's a crap institution to work for and they treat their workers like ass and that was when
like-I really-yeah, you know, it's funny. People think-the pop culture of what college is like
is that it's full of these hippie Marxist professors that tum people into commies and like really
(laughs), I did end up that way but it was not because I had-well I had one-but for the most
part, I did not have hippie, communist professors. It was because there were liberals who still
believe in capitalism, and capital relations, and work relations, and power dynamics and kind of
slow, incrementalism, white moderate crap, but want put that ribbon of diversity on there; you
know. So Residence Life was like that; Residence Life was a weird job. It was like-most people
weren't white, which was really nice actually; that's the only job I ever had that was like that. So
that was really chill (laughs). The only good thing about it probably. But like, they pay
you-they pay you half in a stipend/discount on your housing and then half in bi-weekly
13
paychecks. The housing stipend only is enough-unlike pretty much every other RA I've talked
to from higher academic places, like the University of Minnesota-other friends I've had who
were RA's and stuff-they all had free room and board. You know, a pretty standard, kind of
like, Why the hell else would you be an RA-kind of thing? That's the deal there. Not at Augsburg
(laughs). You get free room and board if you are in RA in a first year dorm-in Urness; but you
still have to pay for a meal plan, especially because Urness doesn't have any kind of
cooking-thing. There's a 'kitchen' on the first floor that's like a really, kind of, rinky-dink-it
would really be a struggle to like to feed oneself like fully using the Urness kitchen.
So, I worked in Mort-the second, kind-of cheapest place to be an RA, only a couple
thousand more than Urness. So like, even then, the amount of money that was given to me for
my housing was equal to the amount that I had to pay for housing on top of that-so it kind of
cancelled itself out-no wait! It's even worse than that! The amount of money I got in stipend
for housing, plus the paychecks-combined
with how much I had to pay to live there for the rest
of the year--cancelled each other year. So I essentially worked for free but also, lived for free. It
was kind of the trade there. But like, I also had to still have a meal plan even though there are
kitchens in Mort; they still force you to buy into that kind of crap and like-it's just kind of one
of those-really when I started to realize the absurdity and like, What are people even doing?
Kind of organizational structure-like how that kind of business practice works-as an RA, we
were pretty-you know, the boots-on-the-ground-with
the residence. You know, I lived with
these people. My personal philosophy was that like-Residence Life, they wanted you to be like
everybody's best friend and like hitting people up all the time-and especially in Mort, when it
tended to be upperclassmen-that's
not really what people wanted. People wanted to be left
alone; do their own thing and study or whatever. It was kind oflike, I'm here if you need me but
like-they didn't want a babysitter. I didn't want to babysit grownass people older than me so
(laughs). So they had that; they had weekly, nightly programming of activities and things that
like-none of the residents-just a small handful of residents go to; but by-and-large, nobody
was interested in or go to. We're openly mocked and like-we all thought it was kind of crap; all
the other RA's, and even some of the other professional staff, you know. If you got them to be
more comfortable enough with you, they would admit it was kind of bullshit; but because that
was the mandate from the top-down, we had to keep doing this shit, and just like wasting money
and all of our time on crap that like-nobody wanted!
And so much of it was like-when I started at Augsburg, they started this thing that was
like "Green by 2019." By the time, it was supposed to be a carbon-neutral campus and I
think-maybe I'm remembering it wrong-but I think a part of that was like, trying to-I don't
know if they were trying to be paper free, but really ditch that and-ahh. The amount of paper I
wasted as an RA-the flyers we had to print over and over again for things these things that
happened every week but it was like a new topic or a different date, we would have to print out
the same thing over and over again with just like different words typed on it and just like-all
just a waste.
And I did the math and-not including the block stipend-like the discount-the amount
you get paid week-to-week-how
much they pay you versus how many hours they expect you to
work-I think I was making like-it was less than five bucks an hour. It was nuts; it just was like
total crap. And this was when Minneapolis-that year as an RA was when the fifteen dollar
minimum wage was passed here and so like-they didn't just jump from seven-whatever to
fifteen, but like-people are starting to raise it. So it was just really crap and exploitative and
14
they just pray on these young people that don't know better, you know? Don't know-want to
trust (laughs) these people-that buy into the culture of Augsburg and all that. But yeah; so that
really kind of-by the time I was done as an RA, I was just like really, really over it and was
already-like I wasn't a socialist yet but I was starting to get there.Big part because of Residence
Life. And even like liberals were like-Alright-that's
when I remember about starting to hear
jokes about late capitalism. It was a pretty-that's the thing; everybody was aware about how
crappy it was, so people would like-our bosses included would make jokes about, "You know,
that's capitalism!" but it's kind of like-we all know we can make these changes; we have ideas
for how it could be better; and we to pitch it, you know? We really tried to convince people that
we shouldn't be doing this nightly programming and they just wouldn't hear us out-wouldn't
listen to us. Kind of crap. And they know-I think it's honestly part of their business model. It
really is a shit job and it's really burnt out because you ended up working more hours
than-you're supposed to really. I really didn't do that, because-so much of it was kind of
bullshit.
Prior to going into this, I was kind of in my head like, What am I going to say about my
time at Augsburg and what college is and big takeaways and it's kind of like-one of the big
takeaways is [editor's note: college] is a time when you figure out what needs to get done and
what shit you can let go, you know? What can slide. Like priorities. What matters (laughs). So, I
would prioritze the stuff that mattered so I could still have a work-life balance, which was
already wack because I lived where I worked. That's just RA-I was always on the job as soon
as I stepped out of my room. And I had roommates-like I was technically always working.
Yeah, it was kind of just like-by the end, you could really just see through the crap and knew
(laughs) it would be better if the people actually doing the work-it was the people deciding how
the work was done.
CE: Now, senior year!
WH: Senior year. Senior year was a real rough one for several reasons. One of the bigger ones
being it was-in October-I think it was before the stuff went down in the Honors Program, or
around the same time-that the UN [editor's note: United Nation's] Climate Report came out
and said, Hey, we got a decade to figure this shit out or otherwise, bye-bye human species! And
that-I am still grappling with that. You know, climate grief or whatever they call it; yeah, that
shit is rough. Real existentialist threat there (laughs). So, that had me spiraling and then
yeah-the Honors Program. I wasn't just in the program; sophomore through senior years I was
in a kind of student-advocate role. They called us the House Presidents and split us off into four
houses-kind of like Harry Potter but like, not really. They didn't really mean anything; my first
year they kind of did because they had monthly meetings which were mandatory-you had to
show up so you actually planned stuff and did things. But after that year, enough people
complained so they were like, Okay, people are sick of this; these meetings won't be mandatory
anymore. So participation dropped and I am kind of too blame, because I was technically in
charge of that shit for three years and never really did-you know, I could have done a lot more
and help foster a community and get shit going. I just didn't, really. But so, I was one of the
co-presidents of Griffin House, which is the events house and I was also on the-so my first year
in the program was the director's first year as director and my sophomore year-after some
complaints about Larry Crockett-I think mostly Crockett, but I think also some other-yeah,
15
definitely some other professors in the program being kind of racist or sexist or x,y,z-they got
this diversity committee going and so I was like, shit; alright, I'll join. So that's why I was also
on the diversity committee (phone ringing in background) and so my sophomore year was mostly
talking to people about what they wanted. Junior year was mostly about coming up with plans
and a proposal for what the program could do to be better.
And then senior year, things kind of imploded (laughs) because-so, there were
complaints about Larry Crockett and the diversity thing was created and that first class that he
thought-enough people were like, This is a fucking problem that he got taken out of the class;
so he wasn't teaching it anymore after my sophomore year-my first year as a House President.
Then Phil taught it-the reason Crockett taught that class in the first place was because it was his
pride because Crockett was a former director, so it was one of his projects. It made sense to a
have a new director teaching this class and say, Yay! It's not Crockett-you know, we're in good
hands! Well, it turns out we weren't in good hands (laughs). Phil Adamo likes to play devil's
advocate and he's like a-racist, sexist, ableistjerk. Made fun of people with disabilities; really
insensitive. I never had a class with him, so I'm not-my first hand experience with Phil is a
limited in the scope outside of-in terms of race and personal decorum, so those are other
people's stories to tell. But my experience with him was like-he didn't really end up doing
anything while he was director. So like, the program is a beast and it's very illusive and no one
really knew how it worked, except for some of the student staff that worked for the
program-the Honor's Desk-so he really relied on them to figure it out. And it made sense for
the first couple years but then he never really ended up taking the reigns over-so that was kind
of a problem. He, under the guise of 'democratic'-you
know, "I'll let the people speak and be in
charge of the good!"-and I'm glad he did, it helped contribute to why he's not in charge of the
program anymore, you know (laughs )-he kind of set up his own demise. So with the diversity
committee, instead of being like, Okay, I'm going to get on this! He was like, Oh; you students
who don't really know what the hell you're doing-you figure it out and tell me what I got to do
and I'll do it! So, things never really got done and people shuffled in and out-and then when
things got done, because he was top dog, he got to take credit for the big strides the program is
taking when he's not doing any of the work.
But in that class Crockett was taken out of, Phil-the year before, my junior year-so
part of it was criticized for being too white, too male in his curriculum. And so, Phil comes in
with a very liberal, very surface-level identity of, Okay! We're going to come in and diversify it
up and all this yadda, yadda crap. And so, he's teaching James Baldwin-which is good right,
because people ought to be reading Baldwin-but so, this is James Baldwin we're talking about
here so the n-word in his book. Was it the The Fire Next Time Both Years?
CE: Yes.
WH: Okay (laughs). Both years, he says the n-word. Like, he says the slur-not just the-like
the actual slur. And (laughs) students in my junior year-I wasn't fully in the loop but people
were like, Hey, that's not fucking cool, and talked to him about it and he's like, Hey okay. Kind
of the understanding of lesson learned; won't do that again. Kind of weird that like this
near-retirement person has to learn this lesson now, but okay; not going to happen again and
that's what matters. But like-he didn't learn shit! So he comes along the very next year and
same kind of problems and he's trying to pull this devil's advocate bullshit, "Isn't it giving to the
16
word to be afraid to say it?" and that kind of crap. Academic freedom was what he tried to hide
behind. But really, it was about what kind of classroom environment are you going to have, and
is it really safe for the diverse range of students that Augsburg calls its bread and butter? You
know, they put it all in the marketing materials that this is a good place to be but, (laughs)
really-in my time here, it kind of became clear they just care about getting asses in seats;
numbers in books; and faces on marketing materials. When it comes to the actual analysis of
power dynamics and relations and how these actual-how racism actually works and is upheld
and things like that, the liberal critique is not enough to actually take these things down. It's too
focused on individualistic and personal responsibility and that kind of crap (laughs).
So, that happened on a Tuesday and I found out-did I find out the next day then?
Wednesday? Maybe I found out Tuesday because I was a student leader-as a House President,
students start coming to the other presidents and we start to get filled in the loop that-this is
super wack, I don't want to come to class; what the fuck-so we felt like we had to do
something. Felt isn't even the right word; we had to do something. So, Wednesday we were like,
Okay. We know something happened-we know it happened so we're going to do something
about it. So, we sent an email to everybody in the program and Thursday a couple of us-not me,
but a couple of people-went to his classroom to monitor the situation and make sure people
were okay and talk to them. And he really exploded and like-got really defensive and
aggressive and hostile. And like Phil-he's a really good-he's a really good lecturer. He's a
very good orator; very good with words. He's a good speaker; he's got that charisma on a
face-value, so he uses that in personal relationships so like-he can kind of gaslight you,
manipulate you, and tum situations on their head-shot I don't want to bounce the table-so it's
very hard then, in retrospect, to say, "Oh, he did this," because it's so subtle and so whatever
that-having documentation or video evidence or audio is really kind of the only way-you have
to be there and hear it out to really get what was going on. So he got recorded and stuff and he
freaked out.
That Friday then-because that happened on a Thursday-, the class was suspended.
Campus administration finds out me, and the other House Presidents, and people that had
stepped in-people that were in the class-met with a couple of-I remember the Dean of
Students; Chief Diversity Officer; and like-who other?
CE: Vice PresidentWH: Yeah, the Vice President of Student Affairs. Not like the top-top dogs, but right, top people.
You know, we felt the meeting went well; they were very distraught-visibility distraught-by
what happened, and they were sympathetic and very much on our sides. We agreed on next
steps-like, he wasn't going to teaching the class anymore but we weren't going to cancel the
class. We were going to find a professor for the class that students could all rally behind-who
they enjoyed, who could then take over the rest of it and stuff. One of the other complaints he
had-they didn't get to it yet, but one of the texts that was down the road for the class was really
Islamophobic. He'd been confronted about it earlier and refused to take it off the curriculum, so
we got them to be like, We shouldn't be teaching that book and stuff.
So, the weekend happens and like, we knew a,llthis stuff-these people we'd have this
conversation with. But like-there's a hundred people in the program and like-basically, a
hundred people didn't know what the fuck was going on because they weren't in there and there
17
was no communication with them. So, we felt like we had to-like, people were owed an update,
especially the people in class were owed an update. You know, should they even show up to class
that next week? So, we sent out another communication that was very tame and mild that was
just-you know-things that we agreed upon with that adminstration in that meeting. And they
came at us like we were making shit it. It was very much like-they told us-they legit told us
that they were not there doing damage control, but that's exactly what they were doing and that's
what they continued to do; so, we had to keep pushing for transparency and action to hold them
to their word. And, to do something about this and Phil.
He started freaking out right away being like, Academic Freedom! You can't fire me
because of (noises), but it's like-fucking, slow your roll here! You know, we want some real
justice here in this situation, which doesn't necessarily ostracizing someone. You know, best case
scenario would have been, Hey, learn and don't be a dick (laughs). But, that didn't happen. We
made an effort to get restorative justice practices used and circle work, but the campus-kind
of-co-opted that and took the teeth out of it and did it in performative ways. So, that was all a
very disheartening-he ended up removed from being the director of the program, but he kept
his job and then quietly retired. Maybe he was forced down because-the Minnesota's version of
the ACLU, they have some other acronym [editor's note: AAUP]-their guideline's are that like:
You can say that racial slur-the n-word-as long as it's-as you're saying the word; calling
someone the word; they see that different. Calling someone outright isn't okay, but speaking it is
okay somehow (laughs). They were like-Augsburg can't just fire him just for that because
they'd get their ass sued-so I've said other things-so like, other people kind of knew their
piece of the pie, but once we started to combine forces and really talk about what was going on
in the program; what was going on with Phil; it became very clear there was a long pattern of
manipulative-kind of abusive behavior that was way beyond the scope of saying then-word
class. As fucked up as that is, they could have nailed him on a whole lot of things: he was
threatening to take away people's scholarship-something he had no authority to do, anyway;
even if that could be justified, he wasn't in that sort of power position to do that-so like, a
whole lot of crap where like-I, anyway, think that if I was employer or something, I wouldn't
want that kind of behavior-that's not the kind of person you want in your workplace. I can't
understand why they tried to shield him.
And so, this all kind of unfolded over the next couple months. That happened in
October-November maybe?
CE: October.
WH: It was like the spring-it was second semester, January or February when I found out that
we was going to keep his job, finally. They stretched it way out and like-you know, they know
what they're doing. They know that we're students with our classes and like, we're going to
graduate in a couple of years so they just have to drag their feet. Eventually, anybody that
remembers what happens is gone-that's the thought process anyway, I think. And so, that was
just a very disheartening--disillusionment for me, where all these people-it wasn't like I was
like, Phil Adamo, my hero! Or anything, but was somebody I considered a colleague and I had
worked with and had a-you know, close isn't quite right, but a working-close relationship. I'd
seen him twice a week for three years (laughs), so that' a a lot of time to think you know
somebody and all that. And Augsburg-so like Phil and just, how the campus at large took
18
it-some of the other Honors professors and folks went on his side. So, when the Film professors
and some of the other professors I liked, I was really disappointed in their-take, you know; and
you'd feel like a jackass (laughs), you know, for having thought that-you know-I don't know;
that reaction to that event means they see me differently than I thought they did. You know, that
sucks (laughs) to figure that out.
So yeah, that also sent me-that, and that climate change thing really sent me spiraling.
And then, the combined burnout of being in my senior year, and taking a lot of classes, and
trying to wrap it all out with the stress of getting it done and finishing all that-really burned me
out. I'm still recovering, seriously. I'm just kind of now, I think, recuperating from the
burnout-the toll of the culmination of the four years of college plus that crap on top of it and
what it takes. So, that's maybe a lowlight.But also in that, you met some really great people. Not
met; I knew them-you know, we formed a much deeper bond and connection there, and that
was like-it sucks that all that shit had to go down for that to happen, but I'm glad those
relationships formed.
Oh jeez, I suppose-in between my junior and senior year was really when I started
to-that's when I read The Autobiography of Malcolm X and I started to like actually read
socialist literature. I found my way to being anti-capitalist via being anti-racist, you know? Your
race analysis critique isn't complete if you're not taking in class and economics into the fold.
Like that's what-once you get out of the American public education system, that's what like
MLK, and Malcolm X, and the Black Panthers, and all these other Civil Rights folks were
talking about the whole time-and so, all of that kind of culminated. That year-kind of-sent
me pretty anti-yeah, I mean the reason Phil and this school were able to do that stuff because of
the power hierarchies there. Not that if there weren't any power hierarchies, people wouldn't still
be dicks, but it's like-people are dicks and then they're put into positions where they wield
absolute power over people and that's where shit get wacks, you know? (laughs)
CE: That was alot.
WH: That was alot, yeah (laughs).
CE: What would you say were the most impactful things that occured to you? I know the Honors
thing butWH: Yeah. The Honors thing but also-I didn't talk about it but I did URGO; undergraduate
research the summer between my sophomore and junior year and that was really impactful for
alot ofreasons. That kind of taught me a lot oflessons. I learned much more about life than what
I was researching-it was kind of creative project with me and two other film major friends. In
retrospect, I don't know how that-if I was in URGO's position and they came to me with that
project, I would have turned it down, you know? Like I'm glad they let us do it and it was
important to be learned, but it was kind of crap. It wasn't great. Since then, I think URGO's since
changed their application process; but, they were open to creative projects, but there had been
initially been so much more STEM-focused, it was kind of hard to fit into their-required boxes
of what you needed to have, and do, and be a creative project. So, we ended up with this kind of
Frankenstein-project that was not really legitimately-like we tried to do research and tried to be
creative, so we half-assed both. If we would have done or the other, it would have been solid but
19
we tried to do to much. We felt like we needed to justify them giving us that much money to
make a movie or something, so we felt like we needed to have some
academic-research-rigorous kind of thing.
So we did it that summer and like-you know, I think my experience was different than
my two partners on it; so much of what I did was bullshit. Like, you're supposed to work
forty-hours a week, and there's no way I was pulling anywhere close to that much time (laughs)
at all working on the stuff I had to do. But I was still doing what I needed to do at the same time,
so like-that was really kind of-that was my first time I supposed to do the forty-hour work
week and I learned that's crap. I don't know-that wasn't my tempo anyways; and so I learned
that, and how to do that kind of stuff. But really, that summer, we-just me and my professor,
who advised the project, presented our findings at this conference in New Mexico.
CE: What year was this?
WH: That would have been 20-2018, in between junior and senior year. Yeah.
CE: When you presented it?
WH: Yeah, when I presented it. And that was kind of like-I'm still-at that point, I was more
considering-I was starting to wrap up my college career and I still didn't really know what I
wanted to do, you know? So I was kind of being like, hmm, you know? Is teaching or being a
professor something I want to do? It's still kind of rattling around in the back of my brain, but I
was lot more like, "Aww jeez, maybe that's it!" for me to do. So, that experience-this academic
thing and meeting a bunch of people that like do what I thought I might want to do-was really
nice and cool to learn. And it was kind of like-I knew what I had done was kind of bullshit and
the project was bullshit-and it was a project that I loved very dear, but it was kind of bull-but
like going to this thing-and these were like grown ass people; professors; people who are
supposed to be teaching people like me-and like, somehow, my bullshit project ended up
being-and there's alot of stuff going on there, so I couldn't see it all; so who know, perhaps
maybe I saw all the bad research and all the bad presentations-but like, yeah!
I was blown away my project was hanging there, right alongside projects by people who
were double my age; people who had been doing this longer than I had been alive, you know?
And they had film screenings there-films made by professors that were like some of the worst
movies I had every seen! It was kind of like, Okay, jeez-opposite of-everybody else got
knocked down a peg in my mind. Like, movies are hard and we're all just kind of scrambling
good stuff and like-prior to that, I felt very much like I had no grasp in terms of where I stacked
up to anybody-like if I actually had any type of skill; any kind of merit to the stuff I was
making-so that conference was really nice because it gave me alot of confidence. I wasn't like,
"Wow!"-my project was still bullshit-but all of this was kind of bull and everybody was
scrambling around. So yeah, learning that lesson that nobody's really better or worse than
anybody else was kind of a precursor then to my senior year, where I really just-kind of lost
faith in everything and being like, it's all kind of-crap, a little bit.
So yeah, I think that was really one of the main, impactful things. I'm trying to think
what else-it's all kind of impactful. My junior year, I made a movie for one of my classes than
ended up in the Minneapolis Film Festival this fall.
20
CE: Oh yeah!
WH: Yeah! So that was really cool and that was just really gratifying thing to watch, you
know-something I had made up on something that's like a movie-theater size screen. Because
like my junior year, I had made it into a couple of other film festivals-there's this film festival
called, The Mespies, here in Minneapolis that plays-well, it's actually in Columbia Heights.
They play in a movie theater in Columbia Heights and I got in and they're going to play my
movies! But they screwed up-something got messed up and screwed up and they couldn't play
my files; so even though I got into the festival-and I have it on my resume that my movies were
accepted and screened-they didn't actually show my movies. So, that was really-kind
of-disheartening moment. Like, I was already down in the dumps and stuff, and-I invited
people out there to see it and I didn't have a lot of people to invite in the first place-which I was
sad about-and then the four of the people that showed up, they couldn't even watch. My stuff
couldn't even show. So the next year, to be in a much more like legitimate-not legitimate,
because The Mespies are cool and they're all legitimate; people make an art-but like, yes,
bigger scale-type of thing and actually get to see it; that was really cool. Like if I never make a
movie again, I've got that experience.
CE: Yeah! That's actually super dope! Congrats, that's awesome!
WH: Thank you.
CE: Yeah, I don't want to talk more about the Honors Program. Want to mention anything else? I
guess, what would you say were the results of it?
WH: The results of what? Of Augsburg?
CE: Oh, the Honors Program.
WH: The Honors Program?
CE: Like afterwards, because you intensely involved in your senior year.
WH: So I mean, I was kind of intensely involved and part of that, then, was like-Augsburg
loves its committees, so there was a committee to investigate the program and figure out what
needed to be done. I was kind of of the opinion that we should nuke the whole thing (both
laugh); like, let it go. Or just like, have it so reimagined that to even call it the Honors Program
wouldn't quite be right. Things ended up being slow and taking a lot longer than we had initially
thought we would or talked about being like; once again, I think that's kind of part of that thing
that university administrations know-they can just drag their feet and the passion will die down
because people just lose faith or move on or graduate, whatever. This committee that I was on
that tried to investigate the program was really taking baby steps and so like-I was graduating,
so I wasn't keep doing it-so I was like, Hey, you know, like make sure-like I didn't
really-part of the reason I became president in the first place and why I stuck around and got
involved was because the program is really white. I was one--once again, I was one of the only
21
Black people in the program. I think the only Black man in my year in the program and so I was
kind of like-my perspective is one that could come in handy in these situations (laughs), you
know? And so, didn't quite have faith that they would keep fighting without me and I've heard
this year from people at this school, it sounds like they're not kind of quite-I'm not involved
anymore so perhaps what they've uncovered led them in a different direct than we were thinking,
but they're not doing what we talked about when we were still involved.
But like, the good that has come out of it is that people-we really started to understand
how power works at this institution and how seeded these problems are; it isn't just an asshole
professor here or there-it really is the whole structure of how things are run and who's in
charge and so. I think maybe not getting what would have been best situation with Phil Adamo
broadened our scope of like, Okay; we can't fix this, but how can we make it so that kind of shit
doesn't happen anymore? So, there's efforts right now too, to try to get more wide-systemic
change at the campus that I've been involved in, but other people are really starting to take up
the mantle more-since I am an alumni, I am slowly starting to move on.
So, that's a good one. And yeah, I supposed my takeaway-I was already skeptical of
things, but-now I am very skeptical of all institutions, and I think that is a healthy thing, you
know? I think that's a good-I think it's good to-like showing up at Augsburg, I was saying yes
to everything-that's also how I entered the program, because I was asked, you know? And I
became a president and I think somebody like-I think I might have been nominated, but kind of
fell into a lot of the things I ended up doing. Kind of with the, "Oh yeah, come on! This all
seems good," you know? Having good faith in everything. Like I want to trust people and
believe people are good-and if you're not going to have love for people, what are you doing
around here?-but now, I am a lot more-I will be asking questions about why are we doing
things the way we're doing? Residence Life kind of taught me that; like why-you know,
because people want to be kind of marching along with the ways things are done; even when we
all know the ways the things are being done aren't good (laughs), you know? Not only are they
not great, they're not necessary.
CE: Well, to put in on record, we got a lot of things dones. MSS [editor's note: Multicultural
Student Services] are fully staffed now, full time; we also had Joanne Reecke's position to
full-time-Chief Diversity Inclusion Officer; dismantled the Honors Program-which was a
good thing, for the most part; and I would say we also broke the glass ceiling. We made it visible
that Augsburg was not a liberal utopia.
WH: Yeah, for sure; the atmosphere on campus really change and like-people were-people
knew, but a lot of people-the people that were not really helping the people that needed the
help, they thought Augsburg really was what it was selling and so-having that big, public
rupture and having students stand up for themselves kind of forced them to grapple with that.
CE: Just want to put it on record, that was because of student efforts, not because of Augsburg's
administration's efforts.
WH: Yes, exactly.
CE: Students pushed for that.
22
WH: Yes! And I was like-ten ofus really got that going. It ended up being more than
that-with other folks, I probably don't even know, doing stuff-but yes, that was also another
good lesson. If like ten, burn-out, clueless student can make that kind of change that rapidly,
what can we do?
CE: Facts! So, I have a few more questions. So, I have to ask to ask this question: do you think
Augsburg fulfilled their mission statement for you?
WH: Could you read the mission statement for me?
CE: Alright. "Augsburg University educates students to be infonned citizens, thoughtful
stewards, critical thinkers, and responsible leaders. The Augsburg experience is supported by an
engaged community that is committed to intentional diversity in its life and work."
WH: I think maybe, but probably not in the way that Augsburg expected (laughs). Like what
they think that means and what I think all that means, and like what all that is for me-definitely
became a lot more critical of a thinker here, you know? Hopefully informed and thoughtful. So
yeah. The part that's bullshit here is really the second part of this: the engaged community
dedicated to intentional diversity. Committed to intentional diversity; I think that's true.
Augsburg intentionally changed how they recruit students into this school; about fifteen years
ago, it was pretty much just white people. Now, it's majority non-white, right? So like-that
exposure-they fulfilled their promise, but that opened with it the faultlines of what that leaves
out and what-diversity for what, you know? What's it for, you know? Is it just to pad your
number and try to get good press? Or is it to like actually support and help marginalized people
in this world? If that's what they mean by intentional diversity, I think they're missing the mark.
But if they mean just like getting people here (laughs), they did it. I went to Augsburg.
CE: Do you think the Augsburg experience prepared you for your career?
WH: No. I mean I only have the job I have right now because of Augsburg and my academic
advisory. My academic advisor has like-not quite; I don't know if friend is quite the right word.
Colleague?-some kind of relationship with people where I work in advertising and one of the
PR-kind of the head PR dude where I work-knows Bob and he had kind of deal because he
does an internship-three internships a year: spring, fall, and summer. So like, my academic
advisor kept having really good-like kept recommending really good people, so they just made
an arrangement that he would come to him for-he would be like, "Hey! Find me my next
intern," and so he would pick people. I was lucky enough that he liked me and recommended me,
so I was an intern there and I was doing copywriting-which what I am doing now; I am doing
video stuff. But just because I was an intern there a couple months last fall, they knew who I
was; then I ran into him randomly and he was like, "Hey! Send me your resume, we might be
looking for video work," and then that's how I got my job. Now, I can-you know, I am making
my loan payments and paying my bills and-I'm still arguable paycheck-to-paycheck, but I am
not stressing because, Oh shit, maybe I should split money between groceries and-I have a bit
more of a padding. So I only have that because of my connections to Augsburg.
23
But, in terms of like-that's been another thing. I've been working at this job for months
now-yeah three months now. Oof, coming on four now, I supposed (laughs)-
CE: Wow.
WH: Yeah, wow. Time flies when you're grinding (both laugh). Just in that first month working
there, I learned so much more than I learned in my film classes at Augsburg. The film classes are
definitely a lot better on the philosophical and theoretical wherewithal when it comes to film;
when it comes to the technical stuff-and it's not even because they don't have the fancy
gear-like one of the classes I took was an editing class, and it had the same problem where-I
think the majority of the people weren't film majors and the other-there was a cluster of film
majors and even in that range, there was a wide-range of people who were in their first year; first
ever film class people-I think I took that maybe my senior year? I think I took that in the fall of
my senior year or maybe in the spring of my junior year-but I was wrapping up my time as a
film major. I only had a couple of classes left, so where I was and what I kind of needed out of
that class was kind of different from other people. So, because they were trying to make it a
class-if you didn't know shit about movies, that class was really hard because it was not-and
the professor wasn't the best, I don't think. Not a fan; I had classes with them and no.
Anyway. It wasn't a good fit for them; wasn't a good fit for me. And like, it was an
editing class in Adobe Premier, which is industry's standard of what movies are edited on these
days. And like-there's so many hard things and it's like kind of an obtuse-because it can do
alot, it's kind of a hard thing to jump into; not super user friendly out of the gate. But like even
now-shit, I could probably like roll in and get people more practical-you know, advice and
lessons for like how to use it and what to do than what I think I got in my time. That was kind of
disappointing.
I'm glad I learned that shit, and I am glad I went to Augsburg, and I am glad the film
program is how it was for a lot of reasons-me the freedom to be creative, but like, oh shit!
Jeez-it was kind of really disappointing that this program- that was dear to my heart with
professors that I like-don't have it. Didn't have it together enough to actually be
teaching-actually setting people up for success. I am really-I feel really in-over my head alot
on the job. You know, I am making it work-no doubt-but yeah, practically no thanks to
Augsburg's film classes. Really just through the time, experience, and hours spent in the
software tangentially working on projects in the film class, but not the classes about how to use
the gear. And then-kind of goes across the board, for editing and for also camera and using
lighting-I don't know how to light shit. If I was trying to work in Hollywood or really trying to
work in the industry-like I fell into advertising. So like, I'm making a living with film-with
like moving images-by accident almost. So, I'm like chill about it. But I was like going to film
school to be like Jordan Peele or Greta Gerwig-then like, Augsburg is not the film program for
you. They do not set you up for that level of work, which is kind of-which is good for me,
because that's not what I want; but, it's kind of a bummer.
CE: Do you have any advice for future Auggies?
WH: Oof, jeez. Get involved and pay attention to what the hell is going on. So many people
during my senior year-even in the Honors Program-were just like really out of the loop with
24
what was happening and at first, it was hard; the administration was being very obtuse and not
very transparent. But even when people were trying to get people to know and like understand
what was going on, people didn't know or didn't care to know; whatever.
And move off campus as soon as you possibly can. Seriously, like it's nuts. They make
you sign up-make you re-up your housing-super early in the year. They make you do it-is it
like February?
CE: Something like that, yeah.
WH: It's coming up around this time of the year, if it hasn't already happened, and like-you get
off campus and most places aren't listed a couple months before your lease. So if you're trying to
move someplace in September, you probably can't even find it-it's probably not even up for
grabs until maybe May. Like maybe when school's getting out for the year (laughs). So yeah,
they do that to make you be like, Oh jeez! Don't have any other options, have to move back on
campus. So yeah, seriously. You'll save so much money. It's ridiculous how much money I saved
moving on campus, even thought I'm paying for utilities and paying rent and paying for
transportation to and from school. And not even a meal plan-so much cheaper to not being on
campus. It really is, frankly, disgusting the way-what they do. But I think that's their bread and
butter-that's how they make money, is the room and board, so.
CE: Would you like to make any other comments about anything I didn't hit on? Talk about?
WH: Augsburg. You know-I ended up being involved, but I feel like I barely touched the
surface on everything that is going on at this school. There's a lot of dope people in their own
comers that just don't end up ever crossing paths for whatever reason: buildings are quartered off
by majors or whatever, but you know; yeah. I mean, hopefully they get it together and are
carbon-neutral by 2030. Carbon-free even better, because I hear carbon neutral and I think
carbon-credits, you know? That's not going-that's not enough. We can't offset it-we have to
stop.
So, we talked a lot about Augsburg but not about the neighborhood around it, you know,
like Cedar-Riverside. Really dope place-really glad I got to live in this part of the city for a
couple of years. Like Seward is right there-a lot fo really cool things going on in this
community and there's a healthy tradition of-you know, radical folks. Organizing, being
conscious. Art. Lots of cool stuff. So you know-Augsburg, with all of its problems, I have the
suspicion it's hardly unique to what a university is. You're probably going to find it everywhere.
So you know-I can't. I'm glad I did it. Am I proud to be an Auggie? I don't know about that!
But I am one, and that's something that's going to stick with me and even after all that and the
illusion/disillusionment, everything shattered-there's a place in my heart for Augsburg. There's
also-I kind of avoid it as much as I can; try not be here. It's complicated kind ofrelationship.
CE: Well, thank you! This is the end of the interview. So, I appreciate you again for your
willingness to be interviewed and I will send you a copy of the transcript. I loved everything you
said.
WH: Thank you.
25
CE: So thank you.
WH: No, thank you.
End of Interview
26
Show less
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Esch... Show more
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Eschenbacher
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:05
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher
education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher and I'm the assistant provost for experiential
learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
T
Tom Clawson 00:27
Yeah, my name is Tom Clawson. I am a student at Augsburg University going through their
family nurse practitioner DNP track. And currently I work at Regions Hospital and St. Paul in
their ICU. I've been there for about three years now in ICU and then two years previously in a
observation unit also at Regions.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:50
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being
interviewed and having a recording of the interview stored at Augsburg University where it
could be made available to the public.
T
Tom Clawson 01:03
Yes, I consent. Great,
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:04
Thank you. So to start out, could you tell me a little bit about your education background and
what your current currently studying at Augsburg
T
Tom Clawson 01:14
My education background in my undergrad I got my bachelor's in nursing science at North
Dakota State University. And then throughout working, I had a lot of interactions with the public
communities of underserved populations, and really felt a passion for working with people
experiencing homelessness. People from low income communities and looking through
different DNP programs, I saw that Augsburg really has a focus on helping underserved
communities in so Augsburg really spoke to me. And so I applied got in and my first two years
so far have just been extremely eye opening a lot of the first or a lot of the classes in the first
two years really focused on getting out in the community, helping to identify different ways to
work with people from various diverse backgrounds, helping to switch from kind of the
professional mindset more to just being a person listening to another person, and really taking
a step back and listening to what our patients have to tell us and listening to what kind of
situations and what kind of events happen in these patients lives to put them in the situation
that they are now. And so it's really helped to kind of shift from maybe a traditional like
blaming mindset to more about understanding and identifying and empathizing with patients
and empathizing with people in our community.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:57
Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being
engaged in community or in relationship to being able to create change in institutions?
T
Tom Clawson 03:10
Before coming to Augsburg, I was working just as a floor nurse. I was working overnights and so
I didn't feel that I had a huge impact in the unit politics, I didn't feel like I had a huge impact in
the community. I was kind of isolated to my own little bubble isolated, my own little unit.
Showed up at work, did what I needed to do, and felt like that's kind of where nursing ended.
And I felt like that's kind of where my scope ended. Whereas coming to Augsburg, we are
constantly having discussions about ways to improve the community a ways to get involved.
And identifying that nursing isn't just about passing meds and changing bandages. It's about
connecting with your patients, connecting with your community, stepping outside of your
comfort zone and getting involved to help provide resources help provide safe areas, helping to
provide safe spaces for people in the communities to come and share their struggles and be
heard and be listened to and be understood by individuals who can offer help and offer
assistance and just offer counseling. And so experts really helped to open up my scope and
really helped me to understand that there's a lot more to nursing than just going to a hospital
or clinic putting in your eight or 12 hours and heading home.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:43
So some of these questions overlap a little bit I can tell you kind of already answered my next
one, but I'll ask it anyway in case something new comes to mind. Has your view of the role of a
nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so how?
T
Tom Clawson 04:58
My view as the role of a nurse has definitely changed, Augsburg has helped me realize that,
again, nursing is about getting involved in your community and nursing is about offering
support in ways that aren't necessarily talked about in textbooks and ways that aren't
necessarily taught as your core foundational knowledge. Being a nurse is taking the resource
that you have in the expertise that you have and just offering it in formal as well as informal
settings.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:39
When you say formal and informal what comes to mind.
T
Tom Clawson 05:42
When I say formal settings, I guess I think of it more as like a clinical setting in a hospital
setting. And then informal setting, the Health Commons is it's been there for years, it's a formal
place that people experiencing homelessness can come and seek care. But I feel like a big part
of it is just trying to make it more personable and make it more community friendly. And so I
feel like taking away big titles taken away big signs saying help health care offered here, it
really takes helps to bridge a gap. And homeless populations in homeless communities, there's
a lot of mistrust, because I'm sure that many if not all of them have had situations in healthcare
where they go to a clinic, they go to a hospital, they feel judged, they feel blamed for their
situation, they don't feel like they can relate to the nurses, the healthcare staff there. And so
the Health Commons really excels at kind of breaking down those walls and really changing
healthcare from a formal hospital clinic setting to a community space where patients can come
they can ask for help, they can ask for resources, and coming from people who they interact
with on a weekly basis, they have learned to trust us and they've learned to trust the resources
that we have to offer. And so although we may offer resources or consults go to different
medical facilities, because it's coming from someplace that they trust, they'd be more apt to
going. And so at the Health Commons, we're very much I'd very much a bridge and very much
a way to connect people experience homelessness with resources that they desperately need.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:52
In your classes at Augsburg, have you had the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen
nurse, civic engagement or civic skills have they been discussed, and if so, which ones stand
out in your memory
T
Tom Clawson 08:08
The biggest one that stands out is the citizen nurse, it's, again, I don't need to be in a hospital
setting to be able to offer resources offer help. And so I've really taken that, that idea to heart
and use it to kind of step out of my comfort zone. And even at work when a family member
starts asking me about or starts sharing difficulties that they're having, and starts sharing
challenges that they need help working through. I'll step out of my clinical role more and help
kind of be that emotional support that they need. And I it just helps me to understand that
there's a lot more than I can do for not only patients but for their families for really anyone,
anyone that needs help, and anyone who asks for help.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:11
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because
of your educational experience at Augsburg?
T
Tom Clawson 09:22
I feel like I'm better equipped to lead change. I feel like I just haven't had the opportunity to get
involved in different groups for change at the hospital. With the past couple of years with
COVID it's been extremely stressful and then with school, it's hard to balance and create any
free time just to maintain my own sanity, let alone stepping up and trying to create change in
the hospital and in different healthcare settings. Which Augsburg I feel like has offered me a lot
of resources and a lot of valuable knowledge that I can use to enact change. It's just until
graduation, I don't know if I have the time or the just the time to commit to creating great
change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:20
Can you tell me about this is again, thinking about your your time at Augsburg in the classroom
or in your coursework, which experiences that you've had in the classroom and your
coursework? What kind of pedagogies helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen
professional or citizen nurse.
T
Tom Clawson 10:49
Some of the experience that really stood out to me is, and one of Katie's classes, we were able
to go to Breaking Free, which is a shelter for women who have been working, living in the life of
prostitution for X amount of years, and they need resources, they need help, they need support
to get out of it. And so the woman at the house that spoke to us, she worked in that life for I
think she said 15 or 20 years. And so she really understands what these women are going
through. And she understands that it's not just, "it's easy to just leave your abuser just step
away," it's she really broke it down to these women are taken, their social networks are broken
down, their support networks are all cut, they have nowhere to go except for the people
abusing them. And so it really opened my eyes. And I kind of really understood that people
aren't necessarily product of their choices, it's people are a product of their environments, and
the situations that happen around them. And so no matter how much these women sometimes
want to get out of this out of work into prostitution, they just don't have the resources, they
don't have the ability to get out of it. And so that was one experience. But anyone in a less than
desirable circumstance definitely has had experiences that put them in that position. And it's
not necessarily their fault. And if they're coming to me asking for help, I'm going to do
whatever I can to help get them the support that they need to help them create a better life for
themselves.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 12:48
So how did that experience at Breaking Free help illustrate citizen nurse for you?
T
Tom Clawson 13:01
It really helped me understand that, nursing is more than just clinical thinking. It's nursing is all
about getting involved in your community and helping to create a better community helping to
offer resources and even creating resources for networks of people who could use it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:30
Nice, thank you. Thinking again, about your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped
you better understand civic skills or some of the concepts we've been talking about in this
interview? And which concepts or issues were most challenging to grasp?
T
Tom Clawson 14:09
I feel like enacting policy is such an ethereal concept that we we learned skills, we learn how to
we learned the basic information that we should have in creating good policies and creating
policies that really think about the individuals being affected by them. But I feel like we haven't
really had a lot of experiences in writing policies or getting involved. And I feel like if for certain
classes if we had the ability to write up mock policies or have discussions for or against policies,
and if we were able to really have that dialogue and have that hands on tangible experience. I
feel like that would have been it certainly valuable in creating change in the future.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:02
Yeah, thanks. Have you taken politics of healthcare yet?
T
Tom Clawson 15:09
Yes. And when we were taking that class, that was when the murder of George Floyd
happened. And so a lot of our discussions were targeted at the systematic or systemic racism
that's happening. And so we really delve deep into the history of it. And we delve deep into how
we got to be where we are today. And so that I feel like was extremely important to discuss and
learn about, whereas moving forward, I feel like we just didn't have enough time in the class to
talk about how to change policies. And so the class was incredibly valuable. It's just, I feel like
some of the other classes should elaborate and build upon, and that creating policy and
creating policies and creating change shouldn't be restricted to just one class, and it should be
something continually touched upon.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:19
Did any of the course concepts like the ones we're talking about? Have they impacted your
current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 16:31
Trying to think of any specific formal examples that I have. I don't know how many formal
examples I have. But I know that I've definitely had patients come in with specific backgrounds.
I know that there's been a lot of patients of native backgrounds who have come in with heavy
alcohol use that's gotten worse over the past year or two in COVID. And through class at
Augsburg, we learned how the generational trauma has led to drug and alcohol abuse to cope
with traumas of the past, and the traumas of being forced off their lands and forced into
reservations. And so the compilation of all that trauma is just being expressed now today. And
so when patients of native backgrounds come in, with alcohol withdrawal with a cirrhosis from
drinking, end stage liver disease, pancreatitis, I feel like I used to blame these patients and say
like, it's not that hard, just don't drink. But now I feel like I have a lot more empathy for
everything that they've gone through everything that they and their families have experienced
over the past two, 300 years. And I feel like I just understand these patients a lot more, and I
tend to listen to them a lot more and understand where they're coming from, and I can
understand the challenges that they're facing every day.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:26
Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and
reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
T
Tom Clawson 18:39
I feel like a lot of the experiences that have offered the most value to me were the hands on
experiences getting out into the community. I know that it's been, it's been hard, because a lot
of these places that Augsburg used to go to has no longer allowed students just because
infection risk COVID and everything. And I think Katie has been the only instructor who is really
pushed and been able to reopen those doors and reopen those experiences. And so every time
that we've been able to get on the community and see different populations and see different
resources and see what these resources mean for this population, it really helps me understand
that we need to continue to do that offer taxpayer dollars to help keep these resources open
and help keep these facilities open for people who desperately need it. And so, previously,
before attending Augsburg I knew that free housing and community housing was important, but
I didn't quite understand to what extent it's to what extent it can change the lives of the people
affected by it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02
When you see it, then you understand. Now I recognize you're about halfway through your
program. But is there anything that you wished you'd learned at Augsburg, but you haven't
yet?
T
Tom Clawson 20:29
I'm excited to learn all the clinical hands on skills. But, again, I'll go back to saying, I wish that I
learned more about how to write policy, how to change policy and how to facilitate
conversations and get the ball rolling and really get things moving. Because I understand that
changing policy, creating change isn't about making grand large Roe versus Wade style
changes. It's about starting conversations and getting the ball rolling. It's about just kind of
placing those seeds and getting people to think about certain situations. I just wish that we had
more experience and taking it to the next level and taking further steps to enact change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:22
So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of
nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 21:36
I feel like the pandemic's kind of make me made me question how the how the public and how
upper management sees nurses and how they value nurses. Because throughout the
pandemic, there were many facilities that didn't have masks, gloves, anything upper
management was working from home, or if they didn't have any resources set up just wasn't
working at all, but still getting paid fully. Whereas a bunch of nurses were getting furloughed,
laid off. Community opinion at the start of the pandemic, nurses were heroes. And then as soon
as we started advocating for vaccines, nurses were now evil, the bad guys. Nurses didn't know
what we're talking about. And we're just trying to create COVID and spread lies and spread
fear. And so it's really kind of shook my understanding of how the public views nurses, and it's
kind of maybe a question, does the public still view nurses as important?
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:51
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare, could be big or small?
T
Tom Clawson 23:02
Think so, at work, my manager has been phenomenal in being transparent about what
resources we have things that she's doing. The way that she's stepping up and trying to
advocate for everyone on our unit. And so I feel like I've always been able to talk to my
manager, ask for things. And for the most part, it's, yep, we can make that happen. Whether
it's getting new supplies on the floor, whether it's changing how we do things, I feel like I've
had a voice in that respect. And I understand that that's just a very small piece of it. It's just
very unit specific. But as far as making big systemic changes to nursing, I don't really know how
much my voice has been heard or how much change I have outside of my specific floor at work.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:02
That's the end of my formal questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that I
didn't ask?
T
Tom Clawson 24:07
I don't. I don't think so.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:15
Great. Well, I really appreciate that you took the time and to hearing your insight and your
experience at Augsburg and in your profession. It's been great talking with you.
Show less