Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities... Show more
Oral History with Barbara Sabino Pina (2022)
Thu, 3/31 4:31PM
29:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic engagement, concepts, physician scientist, professional, positions, civic,
learned, year, skills, type, question, classes, citizen, apply, future, student, prepared, opportunities
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Barbara Sabino Pina
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in
higher education. My name is Katie Clark, and I'm an assistant professor of nursing. Could you
please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:22
My name is Barbara Sabino Pina, I use her pronouns, and I am a third year at Augsburg
University, studying biochemistry with a minor in leadership studies.
Katie Clark 00:35
Great. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:45
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:46
Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
Barbara Sabino Pina 00:51
I would graduate hopefully in a year. So in spring of 2023.
Katie Clark 00:57
Great. And so can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? You mentioned
your majors, so kind of what you're currently studying, and maybe what you hope to do when
you graduate.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 01:13
I was born in Venezuela. So my first years of school having my native country in Venezuela. I
graduated actually from high school there. But because the education system works differently
in my country then here. I had to go through another year of high school here. So I graduated
from Burnsville High School, after doing basically my last year here, and I decided to attend
Augsburg University. I am currently a third year I'm studying biochemistry. And I also have a
minor in leadership studies. And what I hope to do with this is that I, since I was really young I
always enjoy medicine, and like, the biomedical field. So even though, you know, things can
change, and my decisions also can change with time, at the moment, I want to be a physician
scientist. So my plans are to apply for medical school on next cycle. And I mean, like, the cycle
of 2023. So I hope what I want to do with this is that I really enjoy working on a lab. And I really
enjoy going through the whole answer the question and tried to solve a problem with the
research that is done. But I also like the patient interactions. I also like to talk with people, you
know, having interactions with them, talking with them, understanding what's going on, what's
the problem? Or how, in which ways can I use my, my skills or anything that I know to help
them? And how can they also like, I can learn from them, and develop as well as an individual.
So I think so far, that's the plan.
Katie Clark 03:17
Being in the medical world myself, I think that that is much needed. So I'm excited to hear that.
So just thinking about your time at Augsburg have the concepts of the citizen, professional,
civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills been discussed in your classes or programs
that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 03:41
I would say a couple of them, not necessarily in my classes, because as I mentioned, I am
biochemistry major. So a lot of times wouldn't really like we wouldn't mention those things, but
because of my minor and because I decided to do a Leadership Studies minor. When I took LST
296,that was student development, leadership class, I did talk a little bit about what it means to
be like a citizen and like what it means to have like different intersectionalities of identities.
And so we kind of like talk a little bit of that, in the surface, I wouldn't be able to say that I like
an expert, or like I understand completely the concepts. But I also have to say that I am part of
the LEAD Fellows Program here at Augsburg. And so through that I did learn more about civic
civic engagement and basically how to, like connect with the expert community, but also with
the community around Augsburg. And basically what it means to like a create community and
how to engage and how to organize, mobilize people. I think I did have a little bit of connection
through that, but it's probably because of the decision that I made to get involved in the
program that I decided to be part of. So yeah, That's kind of what I would say.
Katie Clark 05:02
So what experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities, and you kind of answered this, but
maybe ask it again and see if anything else comes up, to learn, reflect and integrate lessons
across coursework and community engaged learning.
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 05:19
As I mentioned, yes, I mentioned a couple of those activities. I also would add, when I was a
first year, I applied to be part of the Emerging Leaders Program here at Augsburg University. I
think that was one of the best decisions that I made at the beginning, because I learned a lot
about myself in that class. But I also got to meet a lot of people that kind of like I continued to
have relationships with, through all these three years that I've been at Augsburg. And that
connected me with all their staff members, when they actually one person that I met through
the Emerging Leaders Program connected me with LaToya, which is basically the director
manager for the LEAD Fellows that that's how I ended up applying for it. So I think the
Emerging Leaders Programs was like the first door that I got to be like, the first that I enter, to
get through all my other leadership opportunities are after that, I got to be an orientation
leader, and then an AugSem leader, and then I got other positions that are expert, like student
program assistant, and eventually the LEAD intern position. So I would say those are kind of
like really meaningful positions that I had that so far.
Katie Clark 06:33
So I guess for me, I'm wondering like being in the biology, or they might refer to STEM courses,
is there a way that could that you envision things like civic engagement or civic skills could
better be weaved in that curriculum?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 06:51
Even though I don't have a specific answer for that, in terms of like ideas, or how to do it, I
think we should try to find ways to do it. I think the STEM fields are really wonderful. And I
wouldn't be a STEM, if I didn't enjoy it, or I didn't like what I'm doing. I really enjoy it. I really
like it. But sometimes I wish there were more ways to connect it with the real world, not just on
that on a textbook, or just based on what it's supposed to be for the exam. But a little bit more
like, again, teaching to this because this is helpful for you and just in your career. But let's see
how we can use this information to create things that can help the environment for example,
like biology majors, they know a lot about, like, they take a lot of environmental causes, like
how can we use this concept to actually create something better for more sustainable for on
campus, or more sustainable for the whole community at Augsburg? Oh, I think like probably
like, what I try to say is more like, I would love it to be more applicable. Or like would there
would be like some type of project instead of an exam. And then you have to the project to
basically find a way to use this concepts outside of the classroom, or something like that. That
kind of like would bring all the critical thinking skills for the students. And also, it would be more
engaging and more enjoyable. I think.
Katie Clark 08:14
Thank you for that. So in what ways has civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepared you to
think about your professional role or civic leadership? Whether it's currently or when you move
on to med school and into your chosen profession?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:32
I'm just to make sure I understand the question Is it like how has Augsburg prepared me more
like in my career field basically?
Katie Clark 08:40
Yeah. So do you see some of those civic learning experiences prepare you as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 08:47
Yes, I believe so. I think more than what I have learned in the like my major itself, it's more of
the things I'm getting involved with like in organizations all those positions that I got through
the years, my current position as a LEAD fellow or LEAD intern. I think all those positions
prepare me more in the aspects of yeah, my classes did a lot of the work on like knowledge,
like okay, I know how to have this lab skills, for example, but my leadership opportunities help
me to okay, how do I express my ideas? I have all this knowledge, but how do I actually send it
to people in a way that they can understand? How can I have a conversation with someone that
looks different? Someone that has a different background, different ethnicity? How can I have
conversations with people have different experiences than me? How to be comfortable being
uncomfortable? You know, like, like having uncomfortable conversations or things that aren't
usually talked about, um, how do we prepare for an interview even for things like that, just like
how to talk how to express correctly my skills to say what I want to say? Just all those kinds of
things that might seem like, I don't know, little or little things that are still important, and that
can tell a lot of your character and your personality, I think I learned a lot outside of the
classroom. And through those leadership positions. Of course, I made a lot of mistakes on the
way, like for sure, at the beginning, I would be thinking so much just to say the same sentence,
or I would freak out in front of people, because I just, you know, public speaking can be nerve
racking sometimes. But because I keep continue doing it and putting myself on those, you
know, positions that kind of helped me to feel more comfortable and end up applying for more
and wanting to do more. And at the end, I kind of found what I wanted to do, you know, even
when, because I decided, for example, to be part of research my first year, probably wouldn't
even know that I want to be a physician scientist. So I think like getting out there and get out of
my comfort zone, through this leadership positions helped me a lot to discover me as myself,
as a person.
Katie Clark 11:08
Just sounds like you just, it's who you are, that's really brought me down this path. And that's
so beautiful. Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement
experience to affect your decision making or be an agent of change as a professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 11:25
I would say yes, my first years at Augburg, I learned through those like civic engagement
positions, like an orientation leader and AugSem leader. As part of campus life a student
program assistant, I learned a lot of like different communities and about the Augsburg
community and outside of Augburg as well. And after a while, not just in those positions, I got
to use those skills. But after I wanted to do something that had to do more with my career that
is medicine, I ended up applying for a direct care professional position. And I believe that one of
the reasons why I got this position was because I was able to show through work, the work that
I did the past that I was able to work with people and do what it's needed to do for the decision.
And so I believe that everything that I've learned so far has made me like a capable student
and a capable just professional in general, to perform the tasks that I should be doing like for
the physicians for the my career path that I've chosen. Because my the medicine even though
it has to do a lot with people think of science, you know, everything just science, and you're
supposed to learn so many things you study and study, study, don't get out. A lot of it is people
interaction, you know, like, understanding how to, like, understand what's going on in the body
and like, understand how you can talk with your patient or how to understand what's going on
in their families. Because sometimes, ah, a lot of the things that happen, they will be like, did
you do this? And they're like, No, I didn't, but then you like, ask another person is like, no,
actually, they did. And I think that kind of trust comes from, if you actually show yourself your
humanity. And like, with honesty, and they are capable to think like, okay, I can trust my
doctor, you know, instead of this person that just gonna knock on me and say things is like, oh,
no, this person is actually trying to do something good for me. Um, so I think I don't know, I feel
like in general, all the positions that I have so far, and a couple of things I've mentioned, they
have prepared me to be a better professional in the future.
Katie Clark 13:53
Well, it sounds like you're very relational, too, which is so important to some of these concepts
and practice too. So this question is one that's a little dense. So let me say so what connections
if any, do you see among professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 14:18
Actually, I think that's a really good question. It's kind of interesting, because through my
through the summer, before my third year, I had this moment in which I didn't I was like,
wondering, like, what do I want to do with my life because I have all these things that I enjoy.
But I thought I have to pick one thing. I cannot just if I'm a leader, I cannot be a doctor and I'm
a doctor, I can't you know, I because we have a lot of stereotypes, that when you do
something, you only can do that. And I think during in that summer, I just took a lot of time for
myself and reflect on everything I've done so far. And what do I want to do? And like, what
makes me happy? Like, what do I enjoy doing, because I want to continue doing that, that I
enjoy. And I think it's, I was really grateful to understand and notice that in my professional
career, I want to be a physician scientist, right? So I want to be hired in a lab, I want to be able
to get all these questions, answer I want to be able to, you know, provide something in the
future that would help to an invention, or some type of technology that would improve
someone else's health. And then on my vocation, I noticed that I love teaching, for example, I
actually really enjoy talking with other people about the knowledge that I have are acquired,
because I think so many things are just so cool. And I'm like, I want to share it. So I noticed that
I love teaching, I love talking, I love communicating. There's this other side of it, that I'm can
can connect, even though I didn't notice before, like it actually can connect to my profession.
And then the civic engagement part portion of it. Personally, I am really passionate about a
specific community, which are the undocumented students and DACA because I am an
immigrant. So as an immigrant, I did I face a moment in which I also was undocumented, and I
faced a lot of challenges. And it was hard, especially as a student, because I wanted to have a
future, but I didn't know how to, without, you know, any type of documents that can help me to
apply for things. And so that saved that that first connection to civic engagement through my
own struggle help me to be like, think of, I actually want to do something in the future that
helped me to help others, not just like, not something that has my own self interest, you know,
and that can help others in the process. And even though these three things might seem like,
let's think about triangle or something, or they might see, like, so far away from each other,
they actually I feel like they connect, because I can still continue doing my work as a physician
scientist, and probably create some type of, I don't know, foundation in the future to help future
doctors that are actually undocumented. Right. Daca in the same way, oh, this process needs
me to communicate with people need me to do research about people like searching for people
that are interested in helping me in this specific issue. Um, and I still, like I have, can have
conversations, I can teach others and others can teach me in the process. So I personally feel
like I don't I all of them relate in a way and I'm grateful that I know I'm capable of noticing that
and that I'm because I think that's what's gonna guide me eventually to a better like, a better
and happy life, doing what I enjoy to do. So I hope that answer the question, I'm not sure if it.
Katie Clark 18:12
It completely does. And I would think as you enter into these systems to you might see yourself
thinking about how to change the systems within which you very much spoke to as well. So
wonderful. Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that
specific term? So if so, how would you describe that? Or explain it to others? If you see yourself
as a civic or citizen professional?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 18:44
I would say yes, more in the working kind of like still becoming, you know, like trained, I think
we can always improve. But I would say yes, because at least for me, what it means is that I am
a leader, that it's trying to create some type of change, that it's going to help others to succeed
in anything that it entails. And I'm trying to do it not just, I'm not just talking about it, but I'm
actually trying to use my own skills, and all the work that I've done so far to make that happen.
So that makes them more like I don't know if that's where the professional part comes in, like
more like instead of just you thinking about what to do with are you actually getting together
with other people or doing some work about it, or being part of a program that helps you to do
some work about it. But I would say that I feel like I am, just that it's more like on the working
process. I still feel like there's a lot to learn many concepts to grasp as well. Well, um, and
develop as a better citizen as a better individual as a better, I don't know, person in team
player. If I were to explain this word to someone, I would probably say like, as long as you are,
you have passion to do some type of work for others and for yourself like something that you
have some type of self interest in, in the process, you are gathering, like you're organizing
people and you're mobilizing people, then I think that would make you a civic, citizen
professional.
Katie Clark 20:43
What's interesting, this is my third interview so far. And I really hear you and others explain
before you were probably even introduced to these concepts that you were doing civic agency
and being a citizen professional. So I'm wondering, do you think that there's better
terminology? Or have you heard of other terminology to really name some of these things that
you are just doing? Or do these concepts, the way they're described, resonate with you?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 21:17
I would say, I don't know if I'm the right person to say there's better or not. But I think there is
maybe easier ways to explain the type of work that it's done. Since I feel like a lot of people can
be a little intimidated by how it sounds, they might feel like, what they hear is like, oh, no, that
sounds like too much. And I feel like I've done nothing, or I've done so little. And you know,
sometimes a lot of people tend to humble themselves a lot, or more. So I think there's probably
easier ways to maybe get across this concept. So other people can actually identify more
themselves with it. Because personally, I feel like if a few years ago, you asked me the same
question. I would have been first, like, what is this? And second? Oh, I don't think I am, like,
capable or I am not. Yeah, like worth do actually just say that type of title in front of me,
because it sounds like a big word. Um, so that's personally why I feel I probably think there's
like maybe, I don't know, a specific won't be the better word to say maybe. I don't know, I some
type of leader, maybe some are in the leader to want something in there might help to make it
more understanding more, yeah, more practical and more understanding for other people. But I
can see how it can be a tricky word to use around specifically people of my age. Because I think
as part of the LEAD fellows, for example, I see a lot of people doing great things and like
working on things that are really like, awesome. And I know there's so passionate about it. But
when you ask them what they do, sometimes they just like, Oh, they're like, Oh, I just this little
thing, you know, it's not big deal. And I'm like, What are you talking about? This is awesome.
But I think it's just people are not used to like thinking of just big words when they refer to
themselves.
Katie Clark 23:16
I completely agree. So thank you, I appreciate you confirming that. Is there anything you wish
you have you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you haven't yet?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
Barbara Sabino Pina 23:31
I would say probably taking a little bit more care of myself. I think I learned how to do it. But I
think there's just like a journey. It's like a long term thing that you kind of learn on the way. But
I wish there could have been I think there's more now, but at the beginning, I feel like it could
have been helpful to have more mental health type of work in the classroom, more
accommodating, suggestions and modes for all the classrooms, all the classes, um, maybe like
they have like in the chapel, they do sometimes people attend. And they have like a specific
speaker that talks just for those 20 minutes about some type of topic. I wish like in those
chapel hours, they would like talk. I don't know how little mental health sessions or, yeah, I
think probably I could have been more beneficiated by more time to think of myself and be
more reflective than think of like go go go go and do do do do. I eventually learned you know,
but I wish Augsburg has been pushing more through that side of it. Does that make sense?
Katie Clark 24:54
That's so important. Thank you for mentioning that. As far as your career development do you
feel like there's any other opportunities that you wish that Augsburg offered? And there's no no
one's gonna get this is just more me asking you in informal and no one's gonna get get you in
trouble for answering the question. It's just some kind of wondering how do you feel about your
opportunities to be ready for your future career?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 25:21
I think that I'm not sure it's like I would I credit to Augsburg just because I feel I had to do more
with me, looking for those opportunities, and staff and professors that were willing to, like,
answer those questions for me. So I think I would like to say, like, yes, it was Augsburg and the
people that I met, like, I made those connections with where an expert at what I want to say is
more due to those people like those staff, those great staff members, those great faculty
members, and of course, me going and looking for those people that were able to help me that
they were able to provide me with like opportunities and say, like, they saw my my capabilities,
my skills, and they say, oh, Barbara, I think you should apply for this, or there's this program
going on in the summer, or there is this, I don't know, class in the spring that it's going to help
you with data analysis, right? Simple. I think those kind of like suggestions, and those type, like
people that mentor me, you know, mentor me to go in like this. I know, this is what you want.
And I know this relates to that. So go ahead, do it. I think thanks to them, I feel more more
capable and better prepared for the future, whatever that means.
Katie Clark 26:47
Excellent. Well, is there anything you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
B
Barbara Sabino Pina 26:52
I would say maybe this is not related specifically to civic engagement or anything. But, I
mentioned a little bit how I'm an immigrant, and I, I was born actually, in Venezuela, I have only
like three and a little bit like three years and a few months in the country. And I know, there's
many other people that are living or had similar circumstances like me. And I think at the
beginning, I had this thought that I was not able to do a lot of things, because of my
documentation, because of just like the situation that I was going through. But if anyone else
out there, it's having the same situation, and they think they can't do it, or that it's just hard, or
that they feel like there's so many doors keep closing in front of them. I would encourage
people to keep trying and just to keep looking for the thing to the right people, like there's
gonna be people are gonna be like, No, you can't do it, or that's too hard, or I don't know
anything about that. But there's gonna be people that are going to tell you, I don't know about
it, but I can try to help you. And there's gonna be people like, Oh, yes, absolutely, we can work
on this. So just keep knocking on those doors. And keep, like, don't feel this courage. Just
because someone say no. I just feel like I want to make sure that people, whoever is listening
to this, or whoever I get to, in contrary to my life, I can make, like, tell them that everything is
possible as long as they're willing to work for it. And as long as they are trying to find what
works for them, because I can give you an advice. But what worked for me doesn't mean
they're going to work for you. So just make sure that you're keep, keep trying ways until you
find the one that works for you. And, yeah, just be yourself. Enjoy the moment. I keep doing the
things I enjoy doing.
Katie Clark 29:00
Thank you. I mean, that's so beautiful. And so moving. And so thank you for that. So that
concludes our formal interview. So I want to thank you for your time
Show less
Oral History with Anna Cox (2022)
Fri, 5/13 12:44PM
32:31
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills,
important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections
SPEAKERS
K... Show more
Oral History with Anna Cox (2022)
Fri, 5/13 12:44PM
32:31
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, civically, learning, experiences, people, sabo, question, professional, skills,
important, intentional, workshops, pandemic, engaged, thinking, civic, internship, work, connections
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Anna Cox
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of citizen professional in higher
ed. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of
the Augsburg health commons. Can you please introduce yourself for the recording?
A
Anna Cox 00:23
Yeah. My name is Ana Cox. I use she/they pronouns. I am a recent graduate of Augsburg.
Katie Clark 00:29
Great. And so before we continue, I just want to confirm that you give consent to being
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public?
A
Anna Cox 00:41
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:42
Great. So when did you graduate from Augsburg University?
A
Anna Cox 00:49
So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently.
So I graduated the year 2022, like a week ago. So yeah, just recently.
Katie Clark 00:59
Great. Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied
when you were at Augsburg?
A
Anna Cox 01:08
Yeah, so I ended up graduating with a degree in Gender, Sexuality and Women's Studies and
with a minor in social welfare. The social social welfare part is social work. But I only had it as a
minor. I didn't complete the major. But that's what I graduated with. It kind of had a journey to
get there. But ended up with women's study.
Katie Clark 01:32
Excellent. And why did you choose to come to Augsburg?
A
Anna Cox 01:36
So my grandma actually went here when she was in college, which was about 70 years ago.
And I I'm actually her last grandkid, I'm the only grandkid that went to her alma mater. So she's
very, she's very excited. And one of the reasons that I really looked into Augsburg was we were
familiar with the school because of her. She had a wonderful experience. But I also really
wanted to go to a school that was diverse. That was in the cities that was small liberal arts. And
Augsburg really had kind of all the boxes checked for me. And then when I actually did my tour,
it just felt so different from the other schools that I had visited. So that's really what brought
me here.
Katie Clark 02:33
So thinking back at your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of the citizen professional civic
engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills, discuss in your classes, or any programs that you
are involved with?
A
Anna Cox 02:50
So I was really lucky that my first year. I got really quickly engaged with leadership. I worked in
the Sabo Center through the Environmental Stewardship Committee, and worked there for both
my first and sophomore year, um, through specifically that program. Later, I had joined Sabo
through lead fellows. But we had talked a lot about being civically engaged, and kind of
growing our leadership skills and in that sense, and a lot of that came from my internship with
the Sabo Center. I haven't heard it in my classes. But my first a sophomore year, I was a bio
major, and then I switched to undecided. And so I wasn't too surprised that I wasn't hearing
civically engaged things in those classes. But I would say that when I moved into Women's
Studies and Social Work, it became more of a relevant topic. But a lot of what I got was through
being involved in Sabo, and all of the workshops that we had, and really what they taught us in
that, but yeah.
Katie Clark 04:15
Excellent. Where did you have your field placement for when you were in the Lead fellow role?
A
Anna Cox 04:22
So for my placement, I was at the Minnesota Youth Collective. So that's what I was doing.
Katie Clark 04:29
Great. So which of the experiences, and some of these questions are a little redundant, but just
trying to see if there's anything else you wanted to add, but what experiences if any standout
as meaningful opportunities to learn integrate lessons across coursework and community
engaged?
A
Anna Cox 04:49
All right, it froze up a little bit. Could you repeat that?
Katie Clark 04:52
Yes, it did. I'm sorry. I don't know what's going on here. Let me make sure it's making sure my
wifi was on the right thing,. Sorry about that. Okay. Okay, so what experiences, if any standout
as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and
community engaged learning? And you kind of answered this. So it was, you know, it seems like
maybe there was, you know, what was in your classes at the beginning, right was different.
What you were learning and community engaged work until you switch? But yeah, was there
anything that was really meaningful opportunities to kind of connect those two, if any?
A
Anna Cox 05:45
Yeah. I think that in a lot of my Social Work and Women's Studies courses, because we had a
field placement attached, or we had an internship that was attached to our courses, that our
experiences in our internship were really important. I would say that for my internship with the
Minnesota Youth Collective, particularly around voting, voter education. And we just had a
recent Minneapolis election around two really important topics, rent stabilization, and then the
creation of the Department of Safety. And so because there was so much history and
knowledge that we needed to know and let students know of, I think that was a really key one
for me that really well was like, Okay, we're learning about being civically engaged. But also we
had with the Department of Safety, we had the George Floyd event. And so it's just, there's so
many things to learn, and so many things that are just beyond just talking about voter
education, that you have to talk about history and like white supremacy and talk about a larger
topic. And so because that connected to that, we talked about that in my courses of how, how
are you culturally competent in your work? Or what are things historically, that you need to
know. So when you are in your internship, you're just more aware and like, are better able to
kind of work on your project?
Katie Clark 07:41
That was really powerful. And I can't imagine what your experiences might have been, like,
between the pandemic and the social unrest, and then thinking about your connections that
you've had in the community, like, just wow. So, um, in what ways did civic learning
experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership, if
any, if you feel like it did, I guess it's kind of a loaded question. But do you feel I will reward that
some of the experiences prepared you to be ready for a professional role or civic leadership?
A
Anna Cox 08:24
Oh, yeah, absolutely. When I was working in the Sabo Center, I also was working as an
orientation leader. And part of the orientation position was attending the LEAD fellows
workshops, or the Sabo workshops. And they weren't required of us, some of them were, some
of them weren't. But it was to our benefit that we would go to them. And a lot of them were
around developing leadership skills, or learning how to organize or you know, things like that,
that are just so staple skills for anyone. And even though maybe I wasn't interested in nonprofit
work, that if you know, down the road, that I would be I have those skills and have that
experience that I can draw from. But also it taught, it teaches you a lot about really working
with other people who are different than you and being able to hone in on your own leadership
style, but also learning how to work with people who are of a different leadership style than you
are. And one of the things that I really found really helpful is that we were kind of allowed to
make mistakes because we're in college, we're allowed to ask questions, we're allowed to make
mistakes more than And, you know, we would if if it was a full time position, but because it was
an internship or because we were doing these workshops, it we were allowed to kind of
struggle with it, which is nice that we were able to get that experience beforehand and get
those skills beforehand. So now that I know that I'm, it's like, okay, I don't have to go into a job
and like, oh my gosh, I don't know how to do this, I already know how to. And so I really think of
the workshops that I did the experiences that I had, as just really key important skills that I
wouldn't have gotten anywhere else.
Katie Clark 10:46
Okay, so have you been able to use and you've already kind of answered this your civic
learning or community engagement experience, to affect decision making, or be an agent of
change as a professional?
A
Anna Cox 10:59
Anna Cox 10:59
Yeah, as I'm looking into full time positions, or thinking about what my career goals are, a lot of
that is thinking about, how do I use, you know, the skills that I have, in my own workplace. And
like, especially when I was working in the Campus Life Office, we were student workers, but we
were also known as paraprofessional student workers, that there was just an extra bar that was
kind of the standard for us. And part of that was using the knowledge and skills from those
workshops and implementing it into our work, because we worked so closely with incoming first
years or first year students, or really younger students who wanted to be in leadership
positions, that it was really important for us to know how to organize or how to advocate for
students. Or, like, when I was in student government, really using those skills of how do you
talk to people in a different power dynamic than you are? How do you advocate for things that
you want, in a way that, like, is going to make an impact on campus and is not just, you know,
like, some, you know, you're not just asking for something, but like, can really implement the
change. And so those are kind of things that I've seen that I've been able to do in my work with
student government in the Campus Life Office, kind of directly advocating for students, but also
directly working with students. And like, being in relationship with them and knowing how to
like navigate, kind of those spaces with them.
Katie Clark 13:04
So this question isn't on the script, but just because rarely do I feel like students are so self
aware, but also like, you're clearly an expert in civic engagement and civic skills, and really
thinking about how to be political in all aspects of life. So given that I, this is one thing that I
struggle with a lot, and I'm wondering your thoughts on it. But I find that a lot of times when
we're teaching about this in classes, like you know, what you can do about issues you're
seeing, and obviously, mine's mostly in healthcare and social justice. So health and health
inequities, I find that students are quick to polarize, instead of try to find common ground, and I
hear you almost talking about building that common ground, which I think we need more of.
And so for you, is that something that you learned? Or is that something that you've just always
kind of been? A person of, is just trying to kind of meet people where they're at and see where
you can kind of agree to disagree or come together on something like, where would you say
you learn that skill?
A
Anna Cox 14:24
I actually really attribute it to my Women's Studies degree, because I actually just recently
wrote a paper about this, but I really try in the work that I do to have, like a feminist pedagogy.
And part of like, as I'm reading feminist theories and feminist authors, one, I forgot who it is.
But there's this feminist author that basically talks about how like we should be talking about
our differences in order for us to, like, band together, that our differences are really important.
And when we don't talk about them. It's, it's not making aware of the actual issues going on.
And I think there's needs to be a good balance of talking about our differences, but also saying,
We're super similar, or we're, you know, we have these similarities. And I think that's kind of
where I was able to kind of gain that skill, because so much of the things that I've learned in
the classroom are feminist theories. And so when I think about the work that I do, in, you know,
my professional life, but also with leadership development, and with students, it's having that
feminist pedagogy mindset. And really incorporating that into the work. But also, I think,
something that I think we've kind of just I think a lot of students have really learned from just
being at Augsburg is having a sense of being inclusive. And I think that that has really been
fostered throughout my four years here, of who is at the table who's missing from the table.
Okay, we're in this meeting. And we have this many white people at the table, or we have this
many cisgendered people at the table. What does that mean for our team? And like, why are
we? What is the demographic? What does it mean, and especially because when I was working
in the Sabo Center, first, in the Environmental Stewardship Committee, we had a lot of talks
about race, because environmental work is pretty, it's pretty white. And it's really white
centered. And so we had a lot of conversations about identities about being inclusive and
having more of an intersectional frame of the work we did. So I think those are really things
that kind of impacted a lot of the way that I think about things now and how I work now.
Katie Clark 17:18
Excellent. Um, so this question is a little dense, so I'll can say it again, if you need me to help
more students ask for to be repeated. So what connections if any, do you see among your
professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Professional, your vocation I know,
that's an Augsburg term, and civic leadership. Oh, okay. You can take your time too.
A
Anna Cox 17:55
I think a kind of connection. I think is being intentional. That's what I would say is being
intentional. I think I'm gonna go through all three to kind of make the connection, but I think
being civically engaged, I think it can be really easy to fall into the trap of being performative.
And just getting something done to just do it and to show it off, but not actually being
thoughtful, and being intentional with what you're doing. And I saw that really in, like student
government, it's really, it can be really energizing and really exciting to you know, whip out all
of these letters to the President, I, I'm forgetting what the name is right now, but are all of
these projects, but if they don't mean anything, when they actually aren't sustainable, or that
they don't actually make a change? And so I think really being intentional. I think with vocation,
I think that now because of the pandemic, really finding joy, and really finding my passion in
my career is just something that has been always important to me, but I think now that the
pandemic has, that we've been, you know, through the rough parts of the pandemic and kind of
still through it, the I really had to think of, okay, what do I actually want to do? What am I
passionate about? What am I going to wake up and be energized about? And be excited about?
And so really being intentional with what I see for myself. And then I think, my professional
development, kind of in the same sense of being intentional about how am I developing as a
leader? How am I being a better colleague for my, for my peers? How are the things that I'm
learning and reading important for the health of you know, my workspace, but also the
relationships that I've made. So I think being intentional for all three of them, it's just really like
sitting back for a little bit being reflective and thoughtful. It's just kind of a common thread that
I've seen.
Katie Clark 18:43
That was beautiful. Okay, so the next question is, do you see yourself as a civic or citizen
professional? Even if you don't specifically use that term? If so, how do you describe that or
explain that to others?
A
Anna Cox 21:39
I think one way that I kind of think about it is that I try to think of it as, like, being the person
who's willing to ask the question. I think I had said this earlier, but like, who is at our table?
Who's not at our table? And even though you might not use the title "civically blank", but
having that, like, thought of who's at the table who's not? There was also this thing that I saw
about the the tenets of white supremacy, and how people kind of live into that without
knowing. And one of them is like, being defensive, or being really strict with time. And so I think
even willing to go against those things, and to be in constantly anti-racist work, that even doing
things like that are being civically engaged. And really being thoughtful of how do you show up
to spaces? And how do you make space for other people? And so that's kind of how I think
about it, of even you might not think of like, Oh, I'm specifically doing this, that, you know, the
work that you're doing is, in that sense?
Katie Clark 23:29
And so here is a question I have for you that I kind of struggle with is, I think oftentimes in our
coursework, or in some of those workshops you were describing, we use the word citizen or
civic professional. And I'm wondering your thoughts on if there is a better word that would
resonate, especially with like your generation, because I feel like there's some pushback back
on whether it feels too grandiose, like, oh, you know, I'm striving to be that, but I wouldn't say I
am one or the language in itself. So do you have any, I guess, how do you react to the the
terms itself itself? And do you have a suggestion for a better way to connect it to students, if
any?
A
Anna Cox 24:30
I see two sides of it. I think there's one part if someone sat down and said, This is what civically
or a civic profession looks like, or this is what this means. It's like, oh, okay, this makes sense.
So, I think that a lot of times, a lot of these kind of big words are used at Augsburg and a lot of
kind of buzzwords like when we say intersectionality or when we say inclusive or when we say
diversity, what does that mean? And so I think it's the same thing of like, Okay, what does that
mean? Like? What is? What's the specific meaning? And how would that be reflective of like a
biology major or someone, you know, an education major? And so I think it's so tricky because
like, it can be so broad yet so specific because of what you're, what you're studying or what
your career goals are, or what your goals in life are. I'm not sure what word or phrase or label
to use it. But I don't mind the Civic Professional. I think there just needs to be more awareness
and education, but I'm not sure. I think if I had a little more time to think of something I could.
Katie Clark 25:58
Yeah, no, no pressure, just wondering your thoughts on it. That's great. So there, this question
is one kind of asking you, is there anything you wish you would have learned at Augsburg that
you didn't? Are there experiences you wish you would have had to prepare for your future
career?
A
Anna Cox 26:22
Oh, okay, this is not a bold statement, but I'm gonna have a bolder explanation. I have
absolutely no regrets. I think I have learned everything that I could in the journey that I've had
here at Augsburg and I think that outside of Augsburg, I think there's, of course, more learning
to do. But I think that everything that I could get out of Augsburg, I could. But I say that,
because I constantly said yes to things. When there is an opportunity, and I could fit into my
schedule, I said, Yes. I challenged myself, I pushed myself out of my comfort zone. Like if I think
of first year me, like if we met, it would be like looking at two different people. And every
opportunity that I was given, I jumped on, and every connection that I could make, I made
those connections. And I think when students say, Oh, I missing this, or I didn't have this
opportunity it's because they didn't take it. And I'm really not trying to be too harsh or bold. But
Augsburg has all of these amazing opportunities and connections. But it's on the responsibility
of the student to take it. And with my own experience, I really made the most of the time that I
had here. And I have absolutely no regrets. And I think I learned everything that I could have.
And so that's really, that's my response. I really got the last drop out of the school for me.
Katie Clark 28:08
That's right, I know there's gonna be people who are listening to this that are and I'm sure
you've met Harry Boyte. But there are scholars that are authors and some of the same content
as Harry and one of them in particular always wants to know, how do students who are like
yourself who do throw themselves into these situations and push themselves to uncomfortable
situations? What what drives you? What is that? Is that just who you innately are or, you know,
how can we tap into that into other people? Or is that just something that you think is just part
of your nature?
A
Anna Cox 28:47
I actually just recently said this in a past discussion, but I said, I am not me without the people
who I surround myself with. I'm only me to an extent, you know, like, I'm great, you know, but
I'm also great because of the people who I surround myself with that my community because
it's so strong and so supportive and pushes me to do more, that I would not be me without
them. In my first couple of years at Augsburg, I had to find my people, I had to find people who
wanted to be engaged and who wanted to be pushed the same amount that I wanted to be,
and I found those people eventually. And, you know, I think it's funny how we kind of make the
joke that like, Oh, they're they're like the same leaders at Augsburg, you know, like they start
out first year and then they always are the same senior year. And it's because we all have we
all come in with, I want to make a change. I want to do more. I want to you know, Have a great
college experience. And then we encourage each other and support each other. And then all of
a sudden, we're doing these really big things at Augsburg. But I think it's because of who you
meet and who you surround yourself with, if you're only surrounding yourself with people who
want to focus on classes, and that is your goal. That is totally okay. But that was not something
that I wanted for myself. And I was with people who were like minded, and who had the same
values and goals that I did.
Katie Clark 30:37
Excellent. Well, the last question is really, is there anything you wanted to add that I didn't ask
you about?
A
Anna Cox 31:03
I think that the two most transformative experiences that I've had on campus was being
involved in the Sabo Center and being involved in student government. Those were the two
transformative places that has made me who I am now. And if I had not been involved in those
two things, I would not be the leader that I am now. So I think that is just kind of where I want
to leave it off.
Katie Clark 31:29
And could you also conclude with telling us the award that you recently won at graduation?
A
Anna Cox 31:38
I got the Marina Christensen Justice Award , which honors a student at graduation who has
been really involved in social justice things and advocating for students. It was, it was a little
surprise that I got it and not because I don't think that I was not that I'm not worthy of it. It's
just there's so many wonderful leaders here. And I think that any one of us could have gotten it.
So it was really humbling that they had chosen me. And that was really exciting.
Katie Clark 32:23
Great, well, thank you so much. So that concludes our interview. And I just want to thank you
for your time.
Show less
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Esch... Show more
Oral History with Tom Clawson
Tue, 5/10 12:16PM
24:39
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, nurse, community, people, nursing, feel, helped, resources, patients, offer, learned,
understand, creating, healthcare, formal, class, experience, step, policies, hospital
SPEAKERS
Tom Clawson, Elaine Eschenbacher
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:05
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher
education. My name is Elaine Eschenbacher and I'm the assistant provost for experiential
learning and meaningful work. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
T
Tom Clawson 00:27
Yeah, my name is Tom Clawson. I am a student at Augsburg University going through their
family nurse practitioner DNP track. And currently I work at Regions Hospital and St. Paul in
their ICU. I've been there for about three years now in ICU and then two years previously in a
observation unit also at Regions.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:50
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being
interviewed and having a recording of the interview stored at Augsburg University where it
could be made available to the public.
T
Tom Clawson 01:03
Yes, I consent. Great,
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:04
Thank you. So to start out, could you tell me a little bit about your education background and
what your current currently studying at Augsburg
T
Tom Clawson 01:14
My education background in my undergrad I got my bachelor's in nursing science at North
Dakota State University. And then throughout working, I had a lot of interactions with the public
communities of underserved populations, and really felt a passion for working with people
experiencing homelessness. People from low income communities and looking through
different DNP programs, I saw that Augsburg really has a focus on helping underserved
communities in so Augsburg really spoke to me. And so I applied got in and my first two years
so far have just been extremely eye opening a lot of the first or a lot of the classes in the first
two years really focused on getting out in the community, helping to identify different ways to
work with people from various diverse backgrounds, helping to switch from kind of the
professional mindset more to just being a person listening to another person, and really taking
a step back and listening to what our patients have to tell us and listening to what kind of
situations and what kind of events happen in these patients lives to put them in the situation
that they are now. And so it's really helped to kind of shift from maybe a traditional like
blaming mindset to more about understanding and identifying and empathizing with patients
and empathizing with people in our community.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:57
Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being
engaged in community or in relationship to being able to create change in institutions?
T
Tom Clawson 03:10
Before coming to Augsburg, I was working just as a floor nurse. I was working overnights and so
I didn't feel that I had a huge impact in the unit politics, I didn't feel like I had a huge impact in
the community. I was kind of isolated to my own little bubble isolated, my own little unit.
Showed up at work, did what I needed to do, and felt like that's kind of where nursing ended.
And I felt like that's kind of where my scope ended. Whereas coming to Augsburg, we are
constantly having discussions about ways to improve the community a ways to get involved.
And identifying that nursing isn't just about passing meds and changing bandages. It's about
connecting with your patients, connecting with your community, stepping outside of your
comfort zone and getting involved to help provide resources help provide safe areas, helping to
provide safe spaces for people in the communities to come and share their struggles and be
heard and be listened to and be understood by individuals who can offer help and offer
assistance and just offer counseling. And so experts really helped to open up my scope and
really helped me to understand that there's a lot more to nursing than just going to a hospital
or clinic putting in your eight or 12 hours and heading home.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:43
So some of these questions overlap a little bit I can tell you kind of already answered my next
one, but I'll ask it anyway in case something new comes to mind. Has your view of the role of a
nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so how?
T
Tom Clawson 04:58
My view as the role of a nurse has definitely changed, Augsburg has helped me realize that,
again, nursing is about getting involved in your community and nursing is about offering
support in ways that aren't necessarily talked about in textbooks and ways that aren't
necessarily taught as your core foundational knowledge. Being a nurse is taking the resource
that you have in the expertise that you have and just offering it in formal as well as informal
settings.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:39
When you say formal and informal what comes to mind.
T
Tom Clawson 05:42
When I say formal settings, I guess I think of it more as like a clinical setting in a hospital
setting. And then informal setting, the Health Commons is it's been there for years, it's a formal
place that people experiencing homelessness can come and seek care. But I feel like a big part
of it is just trying to make it more personable and make it more community friendly. And so I
feel like taking away big titles taken away big signs saying help health care offered here, it
really takes helps to bridge a gap. And homeless populations in homeless communities, there's
a lot of mistrust, because I'm sure that many if not all of them have had situations in healthcare
where they go to a clinic, they go to a hospital, they feel judged, they feel blamed for their
situation, they don't feel like they can relate to the nurses, the healthcare staff there. And so
the Health Commons really excels at kind of breaking down those walls and really changing
healthcare from a formal hospital clinic setting to a community space where patients can come
they can ask for help, they can ask for resources, and coming from people who they interact
with on a weekly basis, they have learned to trust us and they've learned to trust the resources
that we have to offer. And so although we may offer resources or consults go to different
medical facilities, because it's coming from someplace that they trust, they'd be more apt to
going. And so at the Health Commons, we're very much I'd very much a bridge and very much
a way to connect people experience homelessness with resources that they desperately need.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:52
In your classes at Augsburg, have you had the concepts of the citizen professional or citizen
nurse, civic engagement or civic skills have they been discussed, and if so, which ones stand
out in your memory
T
Tom Clawson 08:08
The biggest one that stands out is the citizen nurse, it's, again, I don't need to be in a hospital
setting to be able to offer resources offer help. And so I've really taken that, that idea to heart
and use it to kind of step out of my comfort zone. And even at work when a family member
starts asking me about or starts sharing difficulties that they're having, and starts sharing
challenges that they need help working through. I'll step out of my clinical role more and help
kind of be that emotional support that they need. And I it just helps me to understand that
there's a lot more than I can do for not only patients but for their families for really anyone,
anyone that needs help, and anyone who asks for help.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:11
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because
of your educational experience at Augsburg?
T
Tom Clawson 09:22
I feel like I'm better equipped to lead change. I feel like I just haven't had the opportunity to get
involved in different groups for change at the hospital. With the past couple of years with
COVID it's been extremely stressful and then with school, it's hard to balance and create any
free time just to maintain my own sanity, let alone stepping up and trying to create change in
the hospital and in different healthcare settings. Which Augsburg I feel like has offered me a lot
of resources and a lot of valuable knowledge that I can use to enact change. It's just until
graduation, I don't know if I have the time or the just the time to commit to creating great
change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:20
Can you tell me about this is again, thinking about your your time at Augsburg in the classroom
or in your coursework, which experiences that you've had in the classroom and your
coursework? What kind of pedagogies helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen
professional or citizen nurse.
T
Tom Clawson 10:49
Some of the experience that really stood out to me is, and one of Katie's classes, we were able
to go to Breaking Free, which is a shelter for women who have been working, living in the life of
prostitution for X amount of years, and they need resources, they need help, they need support
to get out of it. And so the woman at the house that spoke to us, she worked in that life for I
think she said 15 or 20 years. And so she really understands what these women are going
through. And she understands that it's not just, "it's easy to just leave your abuser just step
away," it's she really broke it down to these women are taken, their social networks are broken
down, their support networks are all cut, they have nowhere to go except for the people
abusing them. And so it really opened my eyes. And I kind of really understood that people
aren't necessarily product of their choices, it's people are a product of their environments, and
the situations that happen around them. And so no matter how much these women sometimes
want to get out of this out of work into prostitution, they just don't have the resources, they
don't have the ability to get out of it. And so that was one experience. But anyone in a less than
desirable circumstance definitely has had experiences that put them in that position. And it's
not necessarily their fault. And if they're coming to me asking for help, I'm going to do
whatever I can to help get them the support that they need to help them create a better life for
themselves.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 12:48
So how did that experience at Breaking Free help illustrate citizen nurse for you?
T
Tom Clawson 13:01
It really helped me understand that, nursing is more than just clinical thinking. It's nursing is all
about getting involved in your community and helping to create a better community helping to
offer resources and even creating resources for networks of people who could use it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:30
Nice, thank you. Thinking again, about your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped
you better understand civic skills or some of the concepts we've been talking about in this
interview? And which concepts or issues were most challenging to grasp?
T
Tom Clawson 14:09
I feel like enacting policy is such an ethereal concept that we we learned skills, we learn how to
we learned the basic information that we should have in creating good policies and creating
policies that really think about the individuals being affected by them. But I feel like we haven't
really had a lot of experiences in writing policies or getting involved. And I feel like if for certain
classes if we had the ability to write up mock policies or have discussions for or against policies,
and if we were able to really have that dialogue and have that hands on tangible experience. I
feel like that would have been it certainly valuable in creating change in the future.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:02
Yeah, thanks. Have you taken politics of healthcare yet?
T
Tom Clawson 15:09
Yes. And when we were taking that class, that was when the murder of George Floyd
happened. And so a lot of our discussions were targeted at the systematic or systemic racism
that's happening. And so we really delve deep into the history of it. And we delve deep into how
we got to be where we are today. And so that I feel like was extremely important to discuss and
learn about, whereas moving forward, I feel like we just didn't have enough time in the class to
talk about how to change policies. And so the class was incredibly valuable. It's just, I feel like
some of the other classes should elaborate and build upon, and that creating policy and
creating policies and creating change shouldn't be restricted to just one class, and it should be
something continually touched upon.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:19
Did any of the course concepts like the ones we're talking about? Have they impacted your
current practice or your understanding of the profession of nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 16:31
Trying to think of any specific formal examples that I have. I don't know how many formal
examples I have. But I know that I've definitely had patients come in with specific backgrounds.
I know that there's been a lot of patients of native backgrounds who have come in with heavy
alcohol use that's gotten worse over the past year or two in COVID. And through class at
Augsburg, we learned how the generational trauma has led to drug and alcohol abuse to cope
with traumas of the past, and the traumas of being forced off their lands and forced into
reservations. And so the compilation of all that trauma is just being expressed now today. And
so when patients of native backgrounds come in, with alcohol withdrawal with a cirrhosis from
drinking, end stage liver disease, pancreatitis, I feel like I used to blame these patients and say
like, it's not that hard, just don't drink. But now I feel like I have a lot more empathy for
everything that they've gone through everything that they and their families have experienced
over the past two, 300 years. And I feel like I just understand these patients a lot more, and I
tend to listen to them a lot more and understand where they're coming from, and I can
understand the challenges that they're facing every day.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:26
Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and
reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
T
Tom Clawson 18:39
I feel like a lot of the experiences that have offered the most value to me were the hands on
experiences getting out into the community. I know that it's been, it's been hard, because a lot
of these places that Augsburg used to go to has no longer allowed students just because
infection risk COVID and everything. And I think Katie has been the only instructor who is really
pushed and been able to reopen those doors and reopen those experiences. And so every time
that we've been able to get on the community and see different populations and see different
resources and see what these resources mean for this population, it really helps me understand
that we need to continue to do that offer taxpayer dollars to help keep these resources open
and help keep these facilities open for people who desperately need it. And so, previously,
before attending Augsburg I knew that free housing and community housing was important, but
I didn't quite understand to what extent it's to what extent it can change the lives of the people
affected by it.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02
When you see it, then you understand. Now I recognize you're about halfway through your
program. But is there anything that you wished you'd learned at Augsburg, but you haven't
yet?
T
Tom Clawson 20:29
I'm excited to learn all the clinical hands on skills. But, again, I'll go back to saying, I wish that I
learned more about how to write policy, how to change policy and how to facilitate
conversations and get the ball rolling and really get things moving. Because I understand that
changing policy, creating change isn't about making grand large Roe versus Wade style
changes. It's about starting conversations and getting the ball rolling. It's about just kind of
placing those seeds and getting people to think about certain situations. I just wish that we had
more experience and taking it to the next level and taking further steps to enact change.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:22
So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of
nursing?
T
Tom Clawson 21:36
I feel like the pandemic's kind of make me made me question how the how the public and how
upper management sees nurses and how they value nurses. Because throughout the
pandemic, there were many facilities that didn't have masks, gloves, anything upper
management was working from home, or if they didn't have any resources set up just wasn't
working at all, but still getting paid fully. Whereas a bunch of nurses were getting furloughed,
laid off. Community opinion at the start of the pandemic, nurses were heroes. And then as soon
as we started advocating for vaccines, nurses were now evil, the bad guys. Nurses didn't know
what we're talking about. And we're just trying to create COVID and spread lies and spread
fear. And so it's really kind of shook my understanding of how the public views nurses, and it's
kind of maybe a question, does the public still view nurses as important?
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:51
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare, could be big or small?
T
Tom Clawson 23:02
Think so, at work, my manager has been phenomenal in being transparent about what
resources we have things that she's doing. The way that she's stepping up and trying to
advocate for everyone on our unit. And so I feel like I've always been able to talk to my
manager, ask for things. And for the most part, it's, yep, we can make that happen. Whether
it's getting new supplies on the floor, whether it's changing how we do things, I feel like I've
had a voice in that respect. And I understand that that's just a very small piece of it. It's just
very unit specific. But as far as making big systemic changes to nursing, I don't really know how
much my voice has been heard or how much change I have outside of my specific floor at work.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:02
That's the end of my formal questions. Is there anything else that you'd like to share that I
didn't ask?
T
Tom Clawson 24:07
I don't. I don't think so.
E
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:15
Great. Well, I really appreciate that you took the time and to hearing your insight and your
experience at Augsburg and in your profession. It's been great talking with you.
Show less
Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022)
5/7/2022 • 47:26
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies,
vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand
SPEAKERS
Timaka Wallace, Katie C... Show more
Oral History with Timaka Wallace (2022)
5/7/2022 • 47:26
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, addiction, nurse, nursing, feel, mgh, patient, institutions, citizen, Chicago, studies,
vulnerable populations, psych, person, change, project, katie, met, understand
SPEAKERS
Timaka Wallace, Katie Clark
Katie Clark 00:03
All right, thank you so much for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University
and the Kettering foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher ed. My name is
Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the health commons.
Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Timaka Wallace 00:22
Um, to Timaka Wallace. I'm a registered nurse and also doctoral nursing practice student in the
transcultural leadership track at Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 00:34
Great. And then before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to be interviewing
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University which will be made available to the
public?
Timaka Wallace 00:46
Yes, I consent.
Katie Clark 00:47
Great. So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background, and how you ended up
choosing to study at Augsburg?
Timaka Wallace 00:56
So my educational background, I am a native-born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. All my education from
the undergrads like starting it in the nursing, where I started as a CNA (certified nursing assistant), LPN
(licensed practical nurse), RN (registered nurse), and I went up to nurse practitioner, when I enrolled in
a nurse practitioner program that took me out of my traditional comfort zone of Chicago, and I was
accepted here in Boston, Massachusetts as MGH. It was called the MGH School of Nursing, which is
now as MGH Institute, and I was accepted in a psychiatric nurse practitioner program, which I was
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going to do my DNP (Doctor of Nursing Practice), and engage the double masters because that's how
the program was set up. However, I didn't flourish there a lot because I felt so I want to say like in
prison, that was the first time I ever felt so in prison, in education, where I felt like my opinion didn't
matter there. It was a it was more like a system I was in there. And I was so frustrated with the system
and how I feel like I was being treated, that I started reaching out to looking up other schools via the
Internet to try to figure out who would be who would take my credit. So, you know, I got online, I found
Augsburg and I found it to be a little bit freeing when I looked at the doctoral program there, and you
know, they had a master's so I flew to Minnesota, I set up an interview with the not an interview, we did
have a phone interview me and Dr. Joyce Miller, and I was making her aware of my frustrations and I
flew to Minnesota. I was there for about three days I met the staff went around the campus, because
what I knew at that point, I wanted to drop out, because I wanted to just do my doctoral project on like,
my master's is, I'm sorry, I went to Governors State University in Chicago. So I have a bachelor's in
health, and then a master's in I majored in addiction studies. So then, the psychiatric part came in,
because usually mental health and addiction studies disorders, they overlap with one another. So I felt
that that was great. But then when I got there, nobody was in really interested in addiction studies, or
you know, but they but these are the patients that we're going to see pysch. So I, it was a big
disconnect of having a psychiatric nurse practitioner program with no curriculum on addiction. It was
like really crazy. So but being born in Chicago, I was aware of addictions. Because I grew up in
Chicago, Ida B. Wells project. So Chicago Housing Authority, so all you saw was addictions, a lot of my
friends, my neighbors, and then I can't even go father, my father was a heroin, addicted to heroin. So I
just felt like that was normal to have them overlap with one another. But this program didn't feel the
need to deal with it. So I wanted to write on like addictions and stuff. Nobody wanted to be my reader.
Nobody wanted you to do research, I found one person, Dr. Mahoney, she was more the only person
like, open to see these type of things, and culturally open to them. But in the middle of my writing back
and forth and emailing and sending her my papers over the summer, her grading, she left abruptly from
the university. So now I'm back to where I started, like trying to find somebody to want to deal with me.
And it was just a mess. It was more like people were like the other professors like, well, you could just
get on this research. I'm doing this, or you could just get on that research, and I just didn't want to do
that. So it's frustrating. It's frustrating me just terribly and being African American. I know what it feels
like to be marginalized. I know what it feels like to be oppressed. And that's what I was feeling to the
point I was expressing to one of my chairs, she was very, you know, she was white, of course, but she
was very nice. She was one of my, she did the community part for us nurse practitioners; she wanted to
make sure that nurse practitioners know everything in the community here in Boston. And I was just
telling her my frustrations and she just was like Timaka, I know what you're talking about. Exactly. She
said, but you've come so far, just cooperate and graduate. But I just could not find, you know, in my
spirit wouldn't allow. So at the time, I just was trying to find a way out of that school. And I knew I was
close, but it was just too hard for me to like, you know, I think it didn't resonate with who I was to just do
that. Ended up I met Joyce, I call we set up some I flew to Minnesota once I landed there and met
Joyce. I just meshed like my, I don't know how to explain it. It's just when I got there, it felt like home
like it felt like I was accepted even before I even got there. So I did get myself together. I came back to
Chicago. I talked to some of my old nursing professors. And of course, they're like, they're older women
now that like 70-80 years old and eight, one push me to go back because I was like a semester away
they like to market you go back, you do this. And then you do what you want to do. So I dropped the I
dropped the doctoral program, I finished with a master's I finished a nurse practitioner program, and I
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am a board certified candidate to take my board certification for psychiatric nurse practitioner. But I
always knew I was going to go back to Augsburg to get my doctorate degree. I just knew it. Because I
had committed to myself that I'll never go to another institution based upon aesthetics. Because MGH is
very aesthetic they into everything. Everybody's into this, that and people want to be affiliated. And I
didn't know that because I just came from Chicago and not had never experienced that. So I didn't want
to go anywhere else while I had to compromise who I was as a person, as a nurse, as an advocate for
the vulnerable populations of addiction studies as well as mental health. So when I did decide to go
back to school, I knew I was going to be it. And I when I met Joyce it was in 2014 and 15. Yeah,
because my mom just died. And it just took me this long to get here. But I think this is exactly where I
should be. Things that happened to me and MGH was great. All the oppression, all the ratio, the
structural racism they had was great, because right now that gave me a lot of power to know what I will
won't compromise at this point moving forward in my career and my life in general. So I think it was all
worth the journey as hard as it was as disappointed as I was. I just now standing, you know, you know
my truth, and I'm okay with that. So, Augsburg that's how I ended up at Augsburg, because the bad, I
had a bad experience in education. I don't think any students should have be in prison because we all
learn differently. And nobody, I'm not worried about aesthetics. I've never been that I come from
nothing. So for me, it's like, I'm a genuine person. Because when you grew up in the projects, and you
grow up poor, everybody's there because they need to be it's not I'm here because oh, my mom can
afford some random No, everybody's there because you're there because you can't afford to be
anywhere else. And we have always made the best of that. My childhood experience - so I'm very
authentic in who I am. Because when you grew up poor, you don't have any money to be anybody but
you. And to me, I didn't even know I was poor. So I had to grow up and read about it. Like oh, shoot, we
were poor. Oh, wow. But the blessing in it is I'm so genially who I am and I'm so genuinely of what I
represented stand for. And I liked that. And if that what poor equates to, um, I'm okay with that. So,
that's how I did end up there. I had to learn I'm not into all the aesthetics. I'm not that girl. Not her. I
want to be in the trenches. I want to be with the population the marginalized population like addictions
or mental health that people don't want to deal with because I am them in such a way in so many ways.
So I just more I'm more, you know, I just mesh better with the vulnerable populations. It's this mold that
I, it takes nothing for me to be understanding and know and understanding that it's just just just a part of
like who I am even though I have all this education, and you know, I have seen the world is a blessing I
have been blessed to see the world in two different perspectives, but I do know what it is to be
marginalized and oppressed and poor. So I don't get it twisted. I just don't. And I just always stand in
the gap for them, and I always will. So where people want to work at MGH I don't I never have I did a
clinical there on Blake-11 psych, I almost jumped out the window myself. All the people were there on
the unit were rich, they were lawyers, you know, children of lawyers, children of judges, children of this
doctor, that doctor this rich person, and then it's like, you go in to help to do the psychotherapy,
everybody on the unit like the nurse, you get reported. And it's like, whoa, don't go in there with them.
That's "such and such" that donates millions. So I was on a unit of a psych unit to help people and they
were running the show - the psych patients was really running the show - because of the donors and
the prestige they come from. So I'm like, so why am I here today? If I can't go into this patient's room?
To do this? It was just crazy. But this is MGH culture. This is how they do it. This is the Harvard
professor's son. This is the MIT such as such, it was just it's everything he is is like aesthetic. So I just
didn't find myself being effective. And that's just not who I am. I'm not interested in, I guess what the
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people with the money? I don't know. I guess I'm so used to not having any I don't know, but I don't do
well with that population.
Katie Clark 11:49
Well, we're glad that you chose to come to Augsburg.
Timaka Wallace 11:52
I did, Augsburg. I just feel like when I came there, it was home. I don't know the feeling. Like I said, it's
somewhere like you get off the plane. Every time I come home to Chicago. It's like I text everybody
home sweet home. And I mean, that is like I'm home. Even as bad as they say, Chicago is still home.
But when I showed up at Augsburg, it was something about my spirit rested the same way, is like,
yeah, this is where you supposed to be. And I don't know any other way to explain it. But that's it. So I
always knew whenever I went back to get my doctor degree, I'll go there. I'll never forget how Joyce
treated me. She was always open to my truth. Because I just said, you know, I just feel like the people
over there, their white, their privilege they don't understand and all that and, and me and Joyce. I mean,
she understood this was way before George Floyd, you know, and it was so crazy. One of my original
cohorts that I started with at MGH texted me when all this stuff started happening about, you know,
having real conversations. His name was Jude Atom, and he was with me and he was from I think he's
Cameroon. So he did the Family Nurse Practitioner track, and I did Psych. So you all start together,
then you branch out to your specialty. So he texted me one day, he said, I'm looking at the news with
all this talk about having a real conversation. He said to mark that he was before your time when I was
in that program, because that's the stuff I say we need to have a conversation because you guys don't
understand how you making me feel. So that was, that was a confirmation that I wasn't really being
belligerent or tripping at the school, it was just more or less, I felt the systemic racism and oppression
and marginalization every day, when I showed up for school. So that's how I end up at Augsburg.
Katie Clark 13:56
Wonderful. Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relation to being
engaged in the community or in regards to being able to create change in your institution?
Timaka Wallace 14:11
Before I came to Augsburg, again, I went to Governor State University. And my bachelor's and my
undergrad and my graduate degree was in addiction I minored in major in addiction studies. So when I
got there, addiction studies it was like something new that everybody was trying to get into. And a lot of
our counselors, a lot of our professors at Governors State are addiction studies, substance abuse
counselors and licensed in that. So I just felt like that was what we were supposed to do. So what I
ended up becoming I was nominated to be the Governor State University. I was the first president of
the addiction studies club at Governors State University. Yes, I was nominated by the school and the
department because I was very active, I'm very vocal. So we used to gather up, I get money from the
school, we used to go to the state, and disrupt the meetings when he's making laws about the law. You
know, I guess I'm a little trouble, we'll make it but it's okay. But it's good trouble. I'm a fan of John Lewis,
I always get in good trouble. So we will take a bus ride to the state capitol. And we will go in there and
we would pull out the senators of Illinois at the time, I need you to talk to you I need this law to be
changed on the the premise of addictions because the patients are not being seen or the you know, the
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population, they don't get a really a second chance with this law being in place that law, and that was
under Professor Jim Golding. He was the professor but then he pulled me, because that's how I got
nominated. Jane was like, we need Timaka, because she's really good. So I was the president, for
maybe even after I graduated, I was the president and I had to move to Boston, of course, they had to
pick someone else. But I did. I did become the first president of the social studies club. And we did stuff
like that. We also started the recovery walk, as well. Before for people with recovery, because we have
all these galas about and all these months for cancer, HIV, we'd have nurses week, this week, you
know, we have mental health Mondays this month in May we have all that. But you very seldom hear
anybody applaud or reward anyone in recovery. And I think that's a prop. I don't care if you two days,
and you didn't use that's the day to celebrate. And I think oftentimes people can't stay off because we're
looking for this long journey, when it was what additional study, we have to meet them where they are.
And if it's two days, three days, we need to have a day a month that we celebrate. So Governor says
we created the recovery wall, where you could come and walk. And it's not about if you get six years or
six, you know, six minutes, just come that day. So we started the recovery, I helped Jim Voting start the
recovery wall. And I was always on the Board of Governors, stay tuned for addiction studies, I was on
the board. So I did a lot of very active there until I had to move here. And of course, that change, but
even when I'm going back and I I'm back and I'm getting a little stable, I'll sign up again, but I'm just not
the type of person that likes to have my foot halfway in. I'm all the way in with something is no, there's
no gray with me. I'm sorry, it's either black or white. So it's like I'm not ready to go because I'm I got
some other things I'm trying to do right now we're here in Boston wrap up this. So I've always stood in
the gap for addiction studies and the mental health population and I guess, any vulnerable population
because you're my patient, he (Carlos) was a quadriplegic, and I still stand in the gap for Carlos so
much while he was alive, that, you know, they just know like, you better call Timaka before you do
anything. So I'm just gonna like really be an advocate for someone if I'm dealing with the situation. So
that's how I started my advocacy at Governors in addictions thing, and then they also end up inducting
me into the national something Governors State, I was inducted the first course of allied healthcare
professional, I was inducted to a governor State University. You can Google it like if you Google it, it'll
come up with my picture and stuff. So yeah, I love Governor State Governor State was more freeing too
and I like working with the addiction in any vulnerable, mostly vulnerable population with mental health
and addictions. I just really thrive there. Because I think so many so many of those people from my
history from my past are suffering with that mental health, some kind of addiction. And it speaks to me
because I have a lot of friends even though I'm here. All my friends and turn out like me somebody
else, but that's okay. They're still my friends. And I'm not gonna let you mistreat them. Because, you
know, you some people look at me and say, Well, you made it and why she didn't do what you did. And
I just I don't like that, because we grew up in the same building. But every door when you close the
door is a different story behind every door. So you can't say, make me the Ida B. Wells girl, when you
don't understand that it's a story behind every door that closes in those project builds. So I don't, I don't
like to be, you know, listed like, Well, why can they do what you did? We still had different
circumstances when the doors closed at our apartments. So that needs to be taken in consideration.
Katie Clark 19:45
So I'm wondering, has your view as a nurse changed at all since you've been at Augsburg or is it kind
of always been the same?
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Timaka Wallace 19:57
I first of all, I didn't even know I was citizen nurse. I figured that out since I been at Augsburg. And I also
figured out, that's with you Katie, I'm citizen nurse, and I also figured out I'm just a transcultural nurse
as well, you know, I don't have any problem advocating for anybody in the BIPOC community. I'm just
so much that. And yeah, I didn't know anything about citizen nursing to you told me and I was like, well,
damn, I think I'm a citizen nurse too, you know, and I didn't, I don't think we have enough information
about that. I don't even think people know, I never heard of that until I got to Augsburg. So I do know
that I am a citizen nurse. When I took your course Making Room at the Table, that is one of my favorite
courses I have taken. I just told Deb, she just came in at number two with this epidemiology this
semester in biocultural epidemiology, that's number two, I had to be honest, I said Deb this is number
two, you still hold number one. I think that changed me I think we are. You know, one thing about this
program, I really, really appreciate is about taking the person out of the expert role. And I think for me,
you know, all the professional training you got, it's almost like the nurse and the doctor, the nurses, the
angel and the doctors to god, we're like, do what we say do and this and that. And what we're learning
what I know for sure now is we're not the expert for someone else's care. And we're not the expert for
someone else's culture. I think it's so important to learn, like how people heal in their culture to really
get them well. In my opinion, on the spirit, on a holistic level, like spiritually, mentally and physically, you
have to take those things into consideration. So Augsburg really has validated, you know, a lot of things
about how I feel, but also, it also has informed me and made me more knowledgeable, to be able to
have extra tools now, to fight for the vulnerable populations as being a citizen, as being a transcultural
nurse or as or leader or just a follower. I'm okay with all those roles. You know, I'm good at what I'm
good at. But like, I don't have a problem saying that today. I'm a student here. Even after I get my
doctorate degree, I'm still okay with showing up. And knowing that I should play the role that's
requested of me, you know, even as Dr. Timaka S. Wallace. I just believe that. And Augsburg really
those courses, citizen nurse, and Making Room at the Table and biocultural epidemiology. Those
speak so much to that. And I think it's relevant to be a great, you know, nurse, to help someone heal.
Katie Clark 22:52
You've answered a couple of the questions that were coming here. But I'm wondering, one of the goals
of this project is to help people who don't teach about citizen professionalism, or the citizen nurse or
civic engagement in their institutions, about what is the best pedagogical way or method? So how do
we best teach these things? So was there an experience that you had in class that really helped you
gain understanding into what the role of the citizen nurse was? Or was it more reading about it? Like
what spoke to you most as far as being able to learn about some of these concepts which basically are
already instilled in the discipline, but we're not naming them right.
Timaka Wallace 23:42
I think when you had your class and you showed us the videos of things like the little girl, Rosa, I'll
never forget Rosa. Rosa reminds me and me, but she was in the video and like, again, they lived in a
project, anything that lives in the projects, Katie, I'm telling you, it resonates with me, because, you
know that, you know, I tell people all the time, they make me mad, like, everybody loves to come
research kids in the project, no matter what city, state, they love it. It's always like we went to the kids
and you know, that's fine, but nobody ever comes back and figure out what's what you narrated it was
our truth. Because after the time, it's not the truth, because nobody comes back to see whatever
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happened to those children. You know, from that project, everybody doesn't turn out to be even if we
start back. So say for me, I was a teen mom, I started off bad, that would be a type feeling. You know,
like she started out as a teen mom. Okay. That was one obstacle that I beat. I never was into drugs,
was in jail. So it's like, do you come back and check on people and the narratives that you create, I
think is important about that. I think when you show me Rosa, and how she was just this little girl that
thrived and how that school was right across the street, but didn't accept any people, then how you also
show me, the boy that lived he was rich that lived in the building. And the poor people live beneath him
and he killed himself. Because again, I think it's something about community in those buildings that
everybody sticks together that everybody are, knows who they are, because it's based on having
nothing. So you, you know, you can dress up all you want, but you are who you are, and you know who
you are, versus someone being rich. Sometimes you never get to figure out who you are, because you
was born into this, this life, that you have all these things. So sometimes it can get twisted. And he
committed suicide because it was still like a hole in his soul somewhere that he couldn't figure out him
without the money, like who will I really be without this money if I'm born in incident. So I think it's when
I seen all those videos, and those things resonated with me, I think that's how we need to start teaching
things like given visuals and stuff, giving people things to look at and compare and understand that like
those little documentary projects that the girl did with the kids across the 35 feet, I thought that was
phenomenal. But that happens all the time. And we're not aware of the disconnect. So close, but so far.
So I think that's how institutions we need to get out of this formal way - of this is the syllabus, this is the
rulebook. And this is a I don't think that works very well, because nothing is really changing. But if you
give someone something to look at some real concrete stories, like the girl that made the documentary,
35 feet or six feet away, I forget the name of it, but I thought that was so real. And so and it changed a
lot of kids' perspective in the that was rich that was getting dropped off. So it might didn't change the
system, because again, they still been letting kids really in the school because the leadership is very
much so still systemic, you know, it still has its racial systemics, I don't care what you say that's I can't
call it for what it is, is systemic racism was still at the head. So even though they made the videos, the
whoever, all the chair, all the board members to me still wasn't ready for change. A might have they
saw it. But again, it's hard for people to be honest about what's really going on, especially if you have
no idea of changing it or even thought about that you were doing something that that that's what I think
how we should do things like you did, you showed us the stuff. I'll never forget some of those stories.
And that's just what it is.
Katie Clark 27:52
We're talking about civic skills and different concepts. What could have helped you better understand
them more, or what might have been the most challenging thing to understand where we could have
done better and helping give voice to what the skill or the concept was, if any?
Timaka Wallace 28:17
I think for me, you did a great job. For me, personally, for me, you did a great job. Um, what we could
do, is I wish that that course Making Room Seat at the Table can be something that other institutions
could have. Again, instead of, I know we did have a rubric. And I know we did have a course syllabus
and our objectives. I know that but it was something fluid about learning something in real-time in real
contexts that, to me has so much more validity and how I can change as a human being and see things
versus, you know, this is semester, this is how we're going to do things I think for me, Augsburg is
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ahead of its game one day you will be recognized after so long how guys are doing this doctoral
program, that how things are done here. To meet, think, to me is the way institutions should be doing
things at this point, we need to get away from this model of, you know, this is how it goes. And this is
you know, and all the rigor out of the writing, all that stuff. I mean, because you can get a degree if you
follow all those things, but I think graduating of people that are effective and innovative and change and
real people instead of worring about the you know, graduating from the institution, per se with the name
with the GPA and the publishing and all that. I think that's so it's a thing of the past for me because we
have so many things happening where I kind of it like going to the addiction house and you know, the
jails and all those places, I call those the gray areas of life. But those are the real-life stories and places
of our patients, in my opinion, you know? So if I published a book, or did some levels of graduate you
graduate from Harvard versus graduated from Ausburg, I mean, am I really a change agent? Because
of just those things, the GPA, the cum laude, and all that? Or do I meet people where they are, be more
understanding, learn how to take care of them from their perspective, their culture, their way of life,
whether it be substance use disorder, whether it be incarceration, stuff like that, I think we need more of
those types of courses. Katie, to really make people well, that's just my opinion, because wellness is
bigger than you have the degree and I'm the professor, it's more or less, can you understand the
patient? Can you really understand the patient? So I think more courses should be built in a way in
which we are really being able to deal with people that we usually don't do. And learn their lifestyle,
learn their culture, learn how to meet them, learn how to build a rapport with them, learn how to heal
them, in a holistic way. That's what I think.
Katie Clark 31:30
So you talked a lot about how you already were working to change systems before you came to
Augsburg. Do you feel since your time at Augsburg you feel better equipped, or do you feel about the
same?
Timaka Wallace 31:46
No, I feel better equipped, I'm gonna give you guys a lot of like homage I was already I'm gonna tell
you. Like I had Carlos and my patients, like his friend or I said, he made me a kick ass nurse, he did
because of his complicated medical history. And I had to become more diligent about learning this stuff.
And I did and I became great at it because I did it for nine years. So I'm going to add on Augsburg I'm
gonna give you guys to create a you make me kick ass kick ass times to with educational piece, that,
you know, I can be just, I can learn a lot of stuff. And I can translate it to and teach it to a lot of people
just by talking to it, not I don't need to I don't need a syllabus. I don't need a objective list. I don't need
the rubric. I just think sometimes I show up. I'm talking to people. And if you don't we just be very
interested like I work here nights in Boston at this place. And I look up at night, I'm having this
discussion with these nurses or CNAs all the time. They're like, Oh, my God, you know, you can't do
and I'm like, that's not, how am I beat? We're just talking, you know, but I guess what I try to give away
and stuff becomes off deep to some people when this just to me, I'm just doing the right thing. Like, this
is what I had to google CNAs trying to go to nursing school. Everybody's like, we're gonna go here
because this fast and you don't have to do this. And I was giving them a lecture like nothing's fast. Let's
be clear here. Let's let's not do the fast thing. It's nothing fast. And you know, so stuff like that is just like
me being who I am. And taking things that I've learned from Augsburg, from my patient, Carlos, I think I
just share it with the world and it comes easy for me. So I think psych, that was like another place when
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I got there. I was like, okay, this is where I'm supposed to be in the psychiatric field. So I just think I'm
just I just think, yeah, Augsburg definitely I'm gonna give you kudos for making me better at what I do
with more tools. And I think I'll be I think I've been garnered the doctor. Finally, I ended up getting it
somehow. But I think after I get it, I mean, it'll change my name far as like, I have to doctorate, but they
won't change me. It'll just make me better. Better, I guess, in such a way it makes you the expert on
them, but I'm not. It just makes me better at doing what I do. Let's all which is meeting people where
they are.
Katie Clark 34:20
That's wonderful. You think that there's a better way we could integrate the concept of the citizen nurse
into assignments that would better help you engage in that work, then how we have it set up now?
Timaka Wallace 34:37
Hmm, I think, you can kind of thread that in every little course. I think you could do that. I definitely think
you can do every little course should have a little bit of citizenship nursing in it. Because I think Katie,
nobody knows about that. Because I did like I'm very - I like to read a lot of stuff and I stayed grounded
with all the news. Since stuff as much as possible, I had never heard of that. So I think with every little
course, maybe it's okay to just put a little bit of that in there. And then I mean, you still do your course
but all while their at Augsburg? I think citizenship nursing citizen nurse should come up some type of
way, every time. So it can be it can it can it can galvanize its way and you know, start to be more
recognize, instead of waiting, just a little bit here a little bit sprinkle and then you give the course and
then after do a big course just every little, you know, course have a little bit of that. I think that'd be
great. That'd be like a reinforcement of it every time that you leave this place to leave Augsburg.
Katie Clark 35:46
Is there anything that you wish you had learned at Augsburg that you haven't yet?
Timaka Wallace 35:53
No, I'm still learning, I just, you know, I still have a couple of great courses to, to finish. But every
semester I'm excited even though I'm worn down. I'm always excited to know what's next here. Like I, I
can truly say, I've been happy since I started. I really been happy here since I started. So I've never
missed a class or nothing. Like even if I'm sick, I'll be like, I'm logging on, I feel better after it's over. You
know. So that's, that's the good thing about being here at this program. I am just always eager to be
here no matter what. I try to be here. And I'm always learning something. So I think it's more to come.
You know, I think it's more to come. So I don't, I don't have any regrets or anything or thinking that you
guys haven't been the best that you have been; you have been phenomenally great. Great. You know,
this has been a great program for me, but couldn't have picked a better program.Thank you. Okay, so
two more questions. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing? Do you
feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constant changing landscape of
healthcare. It definitely has changed. Because it has changed nursing totally, you know, all within itself,
the constant change of it every day, as it still was two or three years out and still continue to change
me. I don't know if I'm on I don't first be in and make decisions. I'm not on that kind of platform. Like I
haven't gained my seat at the table yet, Katie to be able to, to say how I feel, I mean, this interview,
maybe it's helping me say how I feel. But I haven't been able to get that opportunity outside of class,
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you know, all our classes with the cohort I'm in, I'm in the best cohort in the world. We are so different.
But we're so alike for us on purpose together, that this couldn't it's like I don't even know how this
happened. But I did. So I think we talk about a lot of things amongst each other. But I don't think I have
the platform, if it's outside of Augsburg to really, you know, have a lot to say, I don't know if that
happened in the future. But I just know nursing in general has changed just in so many ways, just so
just like for me, I was a psych NP candidate, and usually, we cannot do telehealth unless you had to
come to the school or to the hospital. And it has to be on an encrypted, you know, thing get in and out.
But of course, that changed with pandemic. I can tell I have now off my computer right here right now. It
doesn't have to be all the stipulations, and all is that the third, even with the license thing, you can do a
lot of stuff. They doing a lot of compact licenses now that you couldn't do it was hard to get. It's not like
that anymore. So I think it changed because how are they going to see the people because now we
can't go into hospitals. We can't go outside. So I think it did change. Even at the end I was still in
school. I graduated in May 2020 so it hit right when the semesters we are all about to graduate. So it
we saw the change, like because I was in it. And at that point, I did again the gray areas of life, at the at
the end of my journey. I did my psychotherapy at the hospice house. Nobody wanted to go, so I got
everything nobody wanted to do. I did like the hospitals the homeless shelter the jail, I did all those
places. Because I when I thought about it, like I felt like why wouldn't anybody needs some
psychotherapy on death and dying? And I went and it was a phenomenal experience just to meet
somebody that, you know, they say they have less than six months to live and you know, and then you
know, I get to be with them a couple of weeks. Sometimes they stay still live longer and stuff like that
they stay there, some people will stand there, some people went home and just made a pit stop there.
So I just think with that alone, they said they had never had any psych np come to a hospice house.
And I just thought how crazy that is to get the news. And even with that Katie, we were given news over
a computer where we would give the news about death and dying and person. COVID hit and we had
nothing else to go by. So it started to wear on me and the staff, because it was like, I tell you, all the
results came back, everything metastasized with this prognosis, you got two months to live, I'm on a
computer, you're crying, I'm crying we all because that's something we do in person. And, you know,
make hugs. And you know, so it changed me, you know, and then I got cold one day not call us and the
body getting cold. But I looked up I was at the hospitals house COVID, hit everything shut down. We
have people in here dying. We have people now scared to come. And then we have all these protocols
lined up because of the COVID. I looked up I was I started like having a mental thing happened to me
because I was started being there were people dying on with me that I didn't even know. So that was
just like, wow, you know, how does this happen? So it did, it changed a lot. And at the point like that I
was at the hospice house. And it was all my colleagues, one of them had to really take off because she
just said it's just not right for us to deliver this kind of news to people. But we had no other choice and
had nothing else to do. So we had the people in there dying then now we have people scared to come
see them because they didn't want them to die faster. And then we have people dying with strangers.
So it was a very, very complex time for me. And I just started to also start it started to wear on me too,
because it was like, wow., wow, like what do we do? But our hands were tied? So yeah, I think it
changed nursing overall, and so many, so many ways. And death and dying were away. Definitely.
Definitely. Oh, that's what I experience.
Katie Clark 42:32
Thank you. And is there anything that you would like to share with us that I didn't ask? The final?
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Timaka Wallace 42:40
Yeah, you should ask me like, no, I think like my journey, like after I get my doctorate degree, I think I'm
supposed to be a teacher or something. I do. So maybe you could ask me like, What are you gonna do
after I don't know, I got to Augsburg and I think I'm supposed to be a teacher. Like, I've never thought
about being a professor ever, ever. So it's like I got here. And it's just like, maybe when I did the I did
the dismantling white supremacy as a co-leader with Dr. Frebor, Kaija. So I was honored to do that
work and be the co-leader. But at that point, I just think I was like maybe I'm supposed to be a teacher
someday or something because that was a really, it was a great course. But it was also hard too and
that was another thing that I think, you know, we in this time, let's have a real conversation. I don't know
why people think real conversations are easy. They're never so to have that course, even though it was
so it's so necessary to have that course. I think nobody understood the the emotions that can be
brought up or who you are, what part you played in it, you know, even if it's not per se you personally
but just as a race, you know, I think that's when I felt like well, well wow. Maybe I need to be a teacher
because I was able to explain things to the class, and not even knocking Dr. Freborg, but it's like you i It
was hard for me to see and just being transparent a white person's teacher dismantling white
supremacy course. I think that was so like, I thought that was a good idea. But when we got into it, I just
was like, I don't think this is going to work. I didn't not say it's gonna work. But I don't think that was the
best because a white person to me can't teach dismantling white supremacy, because you don't even
know what it's like to be oppressed in the way I do. So it's like when we had the course. She was the
leader and I was co-leader but he kind of change on his own because she couldn't teach you anything
about being black because she wasn't. So at that point, I figured out that maybe I was going to be a
teacher, even if it's just what a course is something about like I had just seen Miss Diane graduate,
Davis, and she was on one of my students in the course and she had no idea like she had just found
out she's racist that one day, you know, everybody wants to be, it was so much trauma, but I didn't feel
I didn't feel the way that Dr. Freborg felt because it's like, this is a normal reaction. You know, I didn't
need to have her in the zoom by herself. I was like, I'm not doing like so I just think when I did that, and
I met Diane and I met so many other great students but I remember Diane particularly because you
know, Diane even thank you, she's Timaka if ever teach any classes anywhere, I'm gonna find you and
take them because it was some way of me delivering the information did make you feel hostile, even
though I was hurt. I still know how to deal with it and not make you feel hostile about it or not make you
feel bad. So something about a gift from me being poor that I have had to do this all my life that it likes
comes naturally. So I think something like a course like that, or something I'm good at. I'm good at that.
So that's something I didn't know that I probably was interested in until you guys allowed me to be on
that course. So that's one thing I'm gonna say. I will. Thank you guys wherever I end up being, maybe
at Augsburg, because I think since I was birth here, you guys need to use me to your best advantage.
Yeah, so, and that definitely questions nothing. I think I probably would like you to ask me that. I didn't
know that I found out while I was here.
Katie Clark 46:55
Well, I'm glad I asked that question.
Timaka Wallace 46:59
Right. Yeah, well, so. That's it.
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Katie Clark 47:03
That concludes our interview. So thank you for your time.
Timaka Wallace 47:08
Thank you for having me. And I appreciate being a candidate for this. And I hope that I could be some
type of help to someone in a minute way or even in a big way, but even if it's in a small way, I'm cool
with that, you know, so thank you so much, Katie. Thank you.
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Show less
Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022)
4/8/2022 • 46:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people,
role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, T... Show more
Oral History with Theresa Reichert (2022)
4/8/2022 • 46:42
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nursing, thinking, nurse, pandemic, concepts, community, mindsets, shift, students, people,
role, patients, class, talked, citizen, commons, caring, relationship, meaningful
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Theresa Reichert
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering
Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is
Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the Assistant Provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could
you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Theresa Reichert 00:00
Yeah, my name is Teresa Reichert and I am a nurse at the center of care health system here in the
rural Minnesota.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Great. And are you currently a student at Augsburg or graduate?
Theresa Reichert 00:00
I am currently a student in the transcultural nursing program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Excellent. Before we continue, I would just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed
and having that interview stored at Augsburg University where it will be made available to the public?
Theresa Reichert 01:04
Yes, I give my consent.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:05
Great. Thank you. All right. To start out, can you tell me a little bit about your education background and
what you're currently studying at Augsburg?
Theresa Reichert 01:15
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All right. Um, so I went to a public school for my elementary, high school, middle school and high
school. And then after graduating from high school, I attended a private Catholic College. Would you
like the name of the college?
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:32
I'm curious. Yeah.
Theresa Reichert 01:34
All right. So after I attended high school, I went to the private Catholic College, small rural Catholic
college, the College of St. Benedict, in St. Cloud, or near St. Cloud, Minnesota, but it's actually in St.
Joe. And I studied nursing there. And after studying nursing, I worked in the field for a while and then
did some, I call it field learning, on the ground learning, experiential learning, abroad for some time in
India. So I learned through working there, and then after spending months in India, I eventually ended
up getting a master's degree from the College of St. Catherine, although it's St. Catherine's University
now. And that was in the Twin Cities in Minnesota. And then now I'm currently studying my transcultural
nurse leadership degree at Augsburg University.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:14
Great, thank you. Your time in India. Was that through a formal program? Or did you create that on
your own?
Theresa Reichert 02:19
No, it ended up being through connections and networking with a nun that had come to the school and
given a presentation. So she had come to the College of St. Benedict to give a presentation, I network
with her and ended up working with her and then nurse from Australia, and did some learning. We were
in Calcutta, India, and I was there from August through December.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:35
So you have a number of years of experience as a nurse and in different education settings before
coming to Augsburg. So before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in
relationship to being engaged in community or being able to make change in institutions?
Theresa Reichert 03:50
I didn't know my role. And if I were to back up even further from your question, I would say that before
coming to Augsburg, I was still trying to discern my passion as a nurse, which was already there, but I
couldn't see it. I didn't quite recognize it. It was there was a through line through my experiences. But I
think coming to Augsburg in the transcultural nursing leadership program actually helped me clarify how
I fit into nursing because I never did feel like I fit in. And it gave me a place where some of the things
that I was interested in had footing, could take root. And there's a new trajectory that made sense to me
in emancipatory nursing basically. So with that, I was able to discover that that my passion of really
learning deeply, thinking deeply and maybe challenging what I always thought or what others always
thought to be true, especially in nursing, was something that I was more passionate about. So with the
relationship with being engaged with the community, and changing institutions, I now can see which I
didn't before, the ways in which these experiences and interactions, especially long term with the
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community can really shape and influence how institutions are changed, created, transformed by these
relationships with one another. And that I can see that my role as a nurse is so pivotal to being that
bridge.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:30
Awesome. I want to go back a little bit to how you viewed nursing before you came to Augsburg, you
said that you didn't feel like you fit into the profession. Could you describe that a little bit more?
Theresa Reichert 05:42
Yeah, I talk about this sometimes with my co workers and colleagues, but they always say they
meaning I hear it all the time with nursing professors and nursing co workers, colleagues, nurses are
type A, we're task oriented, we're not creative. We're the logical type. You know, we don't we don't have
time for creativity, we have lives to save. Whereas I've always been someone who loves the creative
side of things. I love art, I love painting, I love drawing and thinking creatively, thinking about things
differently. And I also don't see myself as type A, I don't see myself as competitive, I don't see myself
as needing to be the best, get the A have all the details in a row to have that control, I don't need that
control. That sometimes is perceived as Type A. And so these messages that I kind of kept receiving
throughout nursing education and in my colleagues throughout many different departments, was a
message that my creative thinking wasn't something that was really a part of nursing unless it was
critical thinking and backed by evidence. And the side of me that was maybe analytical and thoughtful
and deep thinking in a creative way wasn't as well received. As much as the side of me that would have
been logical and using data as the only way to move things forward. If that makes sense.
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:25
Yeah, it does. Thank you. So you touched on this a little bit with your previous answer. But has your
view of the role of a nurse changed since coming to Augsburg and if so how?
Theresa Reichert 07:41
Well, at this time I came. So prior to coming to Augsburg, I think it something that was important was I
had been teaching in a higher ed program in nursing, and had felt so constrained. Whenever I tried to
do things that were maybe more creative or different, I was told you don't understand. That's not how
it's done. I don't even remember all the messages. But I remember feeling very stifled and frustrated.
There's things I did understand but couldn't communicate and didn't have the hierarchy to have any
power or influence behind it. And interestingly, right as the pandemic hit in 2020, I ended up switching
positions to a nurse leadership position with Centracare, where I work now. And as a part of that
transition, I was just thrust in a very complicated department with a complicated history. And just like
the wheels of change, just cycling in motion before I even got there. And I was leading this team that I
didn't know without a lot of leadership experience, but I had a very solid leadership team. And what I
learned from that, and it occurred simultaneously with Augsburg, so I could put what Augsburg was
teaching me into practice, almost immediately and see the intricate relationships between everything I
was learning. So with both of those in combination, I was able to see the type of influence creativity and
personal knowledge had in reshaping the department and totally transforming the culture of a place into
something new. And I'm really interested in cultural transformation. And being able to put those things
into practice right away, what are those things meaning the things I was learning into practice was
-3-
transformational for me internally as well as the department. So I was able to shift the institution both in
my department, in the way we think, and shift that also kind of up the higher hierarchy of healthcare
systems, I guess, and just start leveraging different people, different thinking, different relationships, to
start shifting change in the institution too. So it was really exciting. And it was a draining year, too.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:35
This next question flows really nicely out of what you just said. So were the concepts of the citizen
professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in classes that you've taken at
Augsburg? And if so which ones stand out?
Theresa Reichert 10:51
Yeah, the citizen nurse concepts were really talked about frequently, particularly in the Room at the
Table class. And the ones that I've really been thinking about in particular, was systems mapping,
looking at kind of human centered mapping. So looking out at who has influence in either an
organization or community, and how do you use that to advance different initiatives. But actually, the
concept of the narrative has transformed my project for my DNP project, into a narrative project,
because of what I had learned in the Making Room at the Table class with Katie.
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:39
Can you describe your project and how you're gonna go about it?
Theresa Reichert 11:45
I'll start kind of at the beginning, but when I was in nursing education, I saw so many different biases
that occurred. So like, people coming back from spring break, and the faculty would say, where did you
go on vacation in spring break, assuming that everyone went to vacation. Or I'd hear them say, to the
men in the class, Oh, you guys stop talking about all your girlfriends and pay attention in class, or just
different little things like that I would hear all the time and see all the time, or when students would
advocate for their needs. I would hear terms used such as complaining, trying to manipulate
professors? Things like that. And I started to see some patterns. And I wondered, how would some of
these things were really influencing the students chances for success. So for example, some students
being invited into or encouraged into the teacher's assistant role, which was a prestigious role in the
school. Prior to me being in a role where I could hire people, there weren't many students of color that
had been invited, or seen as successful enough to become a teacher's assistant. And so I started
noticing these patterns and thought, boy, this could be this is really harmful to a lot of students in seeing
nursing as a shortage and health inequities in seeing this big connection. And I wondered what I can
do. And then I happen to go to Augsburg, and my initial project was looking at how to challenge implicit
bias that's unaddressed among nursing faculty. But there are so many barriers to that. And as I was
learning and learning about different barriers to it, I realized that nursing culture, American culture,
there's so many barriers in our thinking, that prevent us from even welcoming the idea that nurses in
particular have bias much less than nursing professors, because we're such a caring profession. And
there's the story that we tell ourselves that, well, you can't be caring and create harm or cause harm.
And so I started thinking about that more and more. And then as I was taking the Room at the Table
course, which incorporated a lot of the work from Harry Boyte, I started to realize that maybe through
narrative or through story, we can connect to people in ways and that might not be open to receiving
-4-
some of the messages we might have to share. At the same time, in my work, I was learning and
working a lot with neuroscience and implicit bias and doing some training there. As well as in my
leadership training. They worked with the scarf model with neuroscience the Neuro Leadership Institute
scarf model, which looks at how do you decrease the threat response and people? And I wondered if
using story could help decrease the threat response and if we could be really strategic about how we
did that. And I say you story and I'm really talking about using narrative. But I like the simplicity of story.
So I say story. And then I wondered if we could actually attack certain implicit biases and mitigate them
through the use of our story and the use of our narrative. And so that's kind of how it's come into play
with my project is really looking at, can you use story to change and shift people's mindsets, when they
otherwise wouldn't have been open to it? It's really interesting I'm loving it. But that really came from,
the seed was planted in a in the citizen nurse class, and looking at the use of narrative in particular.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:48
Well, I wish you good luck with it; it sounds like something that could have ripple effects in a lot of
different areas. So again, thinking about your courses at Augsburg or your learning experiences at
Augsburg, can you tell me which experiences you've had in the classroom or in coursework, what
pedagogical practices helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen
nurse?
Theresa Reichert 16:18
I saw elements embedded throughout. And one thing that I saw, even throughout the classes was that
the elements of the citizen nurse were uplifted and encouraged. So the use of narrative was
encouraged in class assignments in class communications. And so that was uplifted in a really freeing
because it, it allowed that creativity to come out in a different way and was welcomed. So just
welcoming that type of thinking. It came up significantly in the Making Room at the Table class, when it
talked about how you build community, how you look at community, who you who influences and
shapes community. And then now, even in my current epidemiology course, really looking at how are
institutions shaped. So I'm able to pull information from other classes into the new classes, based on
what the current course is. So with epidemiology it really looking at how do we shape institutions? And
what's our role? And how do our mindsets impact that?
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:30
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your
educational experiences at Augsburg?
Theresa Reichert 17:45
Absolutely. And part of it was because I was able to implement some of the things right away as I was
leading change in my own department. So thinking slow to go fast was one thing that I've been thinking
about a lot, or taking in multiple perspectives, or when we're looking at pulling in evidence for some of
our initiatives, thinking more about where does this research come from? Who's written it who's not
included in it? And how do we get that information to help inform our decision making our practice as
we're, for example, building in a new teaching or learning strategy to help teach our patients. So that's
one small example. Different elements of shifting culture have been really important as some of the
classes I've taken, talk a little bit about shifting culture, shifting mindsets. And it's not as explicit as that
-5-
maybe I'm reading into some of that a little bit. But basically taking in multiple perspectives to shift
mindsets with the citizen nurse class, the Making Room at the Table course, one that's been really
particularly one element that was particularly helpful for me in my role in leadership was really looking
at these are two concepts actually using the community to inform the practice and what we're trying to
do and partnering with an equal status. And then also, how do you organize with understanding that
mapping, the political mapping of the institution, the organization, the community, and really thinking
about that, broadly has been very helpful in as I'm trying to do certain initiatives or make change who
do I need to influence who do I need to talk to who needs by and how might I get that? Who else am I
not seeing that I maybe should be seeing to bring into that conversation? So I would say those are
some of the most pertinent to what I've done so far.
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:02
You mentioned thinking slow to go fast. Can you describe what that means?
Theresa Reichert 20:07
Yeah. So my project is really based on that I'm working on is really based on cultural change, which is
in changing mindsets, which is slow, hard to do, just very complicated and not easy. And I think a good
example of this was that I was in a discussion yesterday, when we were talking about how do you help
decrease inequities, and common solutions had been? Well, if we can change structure of things, then
then the mindsets will shift to. And I was thinking well, but if, if you don't do anything to shift the culture
of thinking, in doing some of those slower processes, you're going to get stumbled up as you try to do
some of these initiatives. And it's going to take just as long anyway, even though you're trying to go
fast. And the presenter, had a different take on the situation. But then 15 minutes into the conversation
talked about the results of his structural attempt at structural change without attentiveness to cultural
shift, just as well. And it, it didn't go well. And I think, really thinking about okay, how do I take that
concept and think of how do we go slow to go fast? And so really looking at how do we do some
cultural change things that is notoriously slow and challenging, that would set us up for more rapid
success later on. And at the same time, how do I look at different things going on in life with a respect
for slowness? And taking the time, for example, with some of the citizens work to gather multiple inputs
to partner with people to build relationships, so that whatever our end product that we're trying to do, or
the end outcome is much more meaningful? Because we've spent the time at the beginning to build a
solid foundation. So I think that a lot about how do we slow down our pace? And how would that impact
what we're trying to do?
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:08
Yeah, it sounds so basic and obvious, but it's not how we operate?
Theresa Reichert 21:31
And none in healthcare either because we're so results driven.
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:00
What could have helped you better understand civic skills, or the concepts we've already highlighted in
this interview, and, and which concepts or issues were the most challenging to understand.
-6-
Theresa Reichert 22:44
I think I had the benefit of living close by, and I was able to go to the commons, Augsburg Commons,
and really talk to particularly one gentleman there and do some professional hanging out which I love
that term, too. I just love that. That's another thing I've used all the time. So I could experience it in
action a little bit. But I would have loved to have had that experience in non-pandemic times to really
understand what that was like. So I do think that type of experiential learning would have been
beneficial. It was limited by COVID and understandably so. That would be the first thing I would think of
thankfully, I mean, that one experience with the Commons was so meaningful, I feel sad that my other
classmates didn't get that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:52
Were there any concepts or issues that were particularly challenging to grasp?
Theresa Reichert 24:00
I wasn't the mapping was tricky at first. And it still is, but I see it coming up in different ways, in my
work, and I just different ways of understanding that. And partly, I think it was difficult, because in some
ways, I think about some of those things intuitively. So putting them on paper, is something that's really
challenging for me. So I liked that challenge. But so that one was challenging the concept of - one other
thing that I loved was just suspending the role and looking at some of the, the rituals and the symbols
that we use in nursing that almost act as walls to providing care was something we talked about in that
class. And at that same time, as we had talked about roles, rituals and symbols. I had heard a podcast
by Resma Menakem and Krista Tippett where he talked about culture change, and how meaningful it
was for people looking to make change to focus on culture instead of cognitive strategies. And he
talked a lot about the symbols of belonging. And so I think about those a lot, too. And I know that's kind
of a side tangent, but both of those things occurred at the same time, that class and that conversation,
and it really rooted in my experience at the Augsburg Commons when I was sitting at a desk kind of
checking people in and I recognize how much more comfort I felt with a pen in my hand with something
to do with that pen. And tried intentionally to disarm myself by setting it aside. And looking at what that
looks like, and focusing on the body language. And so that self reflection, which I love, self reflection, I
love doing it, and I love the prompts towards it. But it always makes things more challenging when you
look at yourself, and how you can change do things better, or how you've been arming yourself in ways
you didn't realize. Or I should say how I've been arming myself in ways I didn't realize. Even with a pen
and a stethoscope.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:19
Because we're guarded by this task that we're charged with.
Theresa Reichert 26:23
Yep. And I'm focusing on this task, and writing down this name, when the more meaningful work is
talking to that person next to you. With all of that set aside?
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:41
Did any of these course concepts impact your current practice or your understanding of the profession
of nursing as a whole? And maybe if you have a story that could illustrate that?
-7-
Theresa Reichert 27:11
Yeah, that one, I might have to think a little bit more on. I mean, I know I talked about what, how I was
able to transform the culture of my practice, and really switch the mindset from some of the thinking in
the department that was really focused on some things that are traditionally associated with white
supremacy culture, so perfectionism, maybe defensiveness, either or thinking or I can't remember all of
them off the top of my head right now. But I saw a lot of that type of thinking. And the way that these
concepts and I tend to really map things in my mind in really connected ways. And so when I talk about
these concepts, they're concepts from the Making Room at the Table course, which was specifically
focused on some of the citizen nurse work. But like I said, it was embedded in all of the courses. So
I'm, I'm really speaking collectively of what I've learned. I was able to use a lot of that in my current
practice to shift the mindset into how do you create a community or department of belonging, where
you can really get input from each person on that team, but also from the patients and build up the
patients and the teams and deconstruct my own status as a leader in a way that helps us function
better? And really questioning what better looks like. So one example, maybe I could give you in
shifting thinking would be when looking at efficiency. And that's a prioritize thing in healthcare and
something we were trying to work on. And when we were seeing more patients, the doctor said, You
know what, I can see more patients, so by cutting the time with them, so if I cut out my lunch breaks,
and then I switched all the appointments to 15 minutes and 30 I could see more in a day. And just
asking questions like, well, what would that mean for the patients and what does that take away? And
what's the value of that to us? When we ended up saying, you know, it's really important that we keep
that 30 minutes with the patient and don't take that time away? How can we find efficiency somewhere
else without compromising the relationships we have because that's where if we don't have that time,
we're not going to get the information, we need to care for them or build in heavily into that relationship
piece. And their personal knowing and building trust, and all of that. So that's not a great example,
other than being in classes that allowed a shift in thinking, of my own thinking allowed a shift in practice.
And I think even a small shift of you know, what, we're not going to decrease the time with a patient,
we're going to look for other ways to be efficient, because we value that relationship signals something
different than it may be signals had been signaled before. Because prior to that, it hadn't even been
questioned like, oh, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, we'll just do that. Instead of seeing relationship as a
value, and something really important that we are going to uphold. It's not a it's not a perfectly clear cut
example. But I think of that a lot when I think of shifting thinking the impact, because it ripples down to
the whole team, then.
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:25
So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
Theresa Reichert 31:39
So you asked which experiences or courses helped me kind of bring it all together?
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:44
Yeah, Where were those meaningful opportunities where you had maybe a aha moment kind of thing,
to where it integrated and it involves reflecting and integrating.
-8-
Theresa Reichert 31:57
Seeing it lived out by the professors was... there's so much depth and weight to seeing that lived out.
Seeing Katie, when I had gone to Augsburg Commons bring a healthy meal, share part of her meal that
she brought for one of the participants, because in how much he cared about his health, and that she
was partnering together with him, there is so much humanity in that action. And it was personal in the
walls of Well, I'm not going to keep my personal life and professional life totally separate, because
there's some humanity there that I don't want to separate from. That was powerful. The second was
when I saw Deb Schumacher recognize the strain and stress in the class and being willing to shift and
listen in a meaningful way. So, being a student, during a pandemic, especially with all the
responsibilities in health care. And the mental burden of all of that is a lot and the students in my class,
were talking about how challenging that was, and she listened. And she made changes based on that
to help. Basically, the professor listened to what we were saying not as complained, but complaining,
but through a caring, compassionate lens in a way that was really contradictory to what I had seen and
experienced as a faculty member, when students would bring concerns forward. That were seen as
complaining or trying to manipulate and get out of homework. The contrast of that and seeing, seeing
the values lived in action, and being willing to change themselves was transformative for me. And I
think that comes from again, like with Deb, being willing to listen and give us as much power in the
relationship as students as the professor and was really like, it makes my heart warm, fuzzy and feel
like I belong in that space because we were listened to and all of us got even closer because of it. And
then seeing Katie do that was do that meaning seeing Katie treat people with in suspend status and in
in that way, it was also different than I had seen for many nurses and building that relationship on an
equal playing field. So I would say for me seeing the professors live, what the citizen nurse concepts in
action was really transformative for me. Particularly building relationships, pulling information from the
stakeholders in the community at equal value. And then I saw lots of storytelling and narrative use as
well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:20
As you were describing it, I could see the parallel between the classroom experience and what you
described about keeping the time with patients at 30 minutes instead of 15. It's centralizing the
relationship for efficiency. Is there anything that you wished you'd learned at your during your time at
Augsburg but haven't yet?
Theresa Reichert 35:55
Right now I'm just enjoying the ride and it's hard to answer that question, because my mind is so full.
There are so many different things that that might be a question I can answer better five years from
now. Because I still have a whole year to go where I don't know what's coming. And so I think, yeah, I
don't think I can answer that question. I will say that it's exceeded my expectations of what I thought I
was going to learn and what I could learn. And I feel, I told in my interview for coming to the program,
that I wanted to come to Augsburg for personal and professional reasons, not just to get the DNP. And
check that off. So I could, I don't know have some sort of hierarchy in the nursing community and be
listened to or it wasn't that but there it was primarily for personal reasons, as far as wanting to learn
how I could be my most full self, in caring moments, however, that might look, whatever that might look
like. And I definitely, that exceeded my expectations as far as bringing out my authentic self, and that
-9-
being welcomed at Augsburg, which I hadn't felt in the same way. In many of the other programs,
though, St. Kate's was great. I love St. Kate's too. But this, this was a sense of belonging. That was
very different and welcoming, and a sense of place. That I really value. So I think there's a lot in there
that I'll still process through as time goes on. And I think the best teachers are the ones that keep
teaching you years after the teaching moment. And I think that I'm set up for that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 37:54
So here's the big question, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Theresa Reichert 38:04
How's the pandemic changed my view of the profession? I think that's also a hard question to answer
because the pandemic occurred also while I was in school. And so a lot of my shift in thinking could
also be attributed to some of the things I was reading and doing and seeing. One thing I may be
recognize is paying more attention to the stories we tell ourselves as nurses that might be myths, and
how that impacts our communities. So I mentioned one myth, we tell ourselves as nurses that this
might be a subconscious myth, but if we're caring we can't do harm, we're almost immune from harm or
the myth that nurses can be objective in assessments. I think those were challenged both in the
pandemic and also in my coursework. And thinking about those has been very valuable in looking at
where it is my place in nursing continue in journey forward. What does that look like? Um, so I wouldn't
I don't know my you know, my, my nursing journey has been so full of ups and downs and twists and
turns and shifts in thinking and so I wouldn't say that any of that has changed necessarily. So, like, for
example, when I was working at a urban Children's Hospital in Minnesota. And we had wonderful
people, it was the best culture of people that I've worked with. loved working there. They're great for it
was one of my first jobs. But then also I was seeing these good people, these good nurses when
patients were coming in. And there they were Somali patients in particular, that kept coming in for
vomiting and diarrhea after the first time they saw vomiting and diarrhea. And it was such a pattern that
instead of asking, why is this a pattern what's going on here? The nurses would be passive aggressive
towards the parents and patients who are scared and say, Tell me what your emergency is today, with
emphasis on emergency, what is the emergency that brings you here today, and just talk about them in
a really frustrated way. And so I thought of looking at what are the patterns here and recognize that
many of them had been coming from refugee camps where cholera was spreading, and could kill
quickly with either vomiting or diarrhea, symptoms. And so I saw nice people still doing harm or not
recognizing ways they could help, even from my first nursing career. So that wasn't new. But I think
what's new, was maybe my role in nursing, and that I had a place and then might, like, I always felt like
I thought differently about things or saw things a little differently. And I think what has shifted in me is
that I now see that that has a place in nursing too, and that I have a place and that the contributions
that I have are unique and valued. And they've been uplifted through my work at Augsburg and I think
that comes through Augsburg but also through the pandemic, because I've seen in the pandemic all the
pain caused by it. And families have experienced that type of pain, misinformation, the drama, the
attacks on people. And it's, it's made me think of what is nursing doing well, and what what are we
missing, that we're not actually treating some of the things that are causing some of the biggest pain in
our communities. And so again, it goes back to thinking and I think the pandemic has really gotten me
asking different questions about what nursing's role is, and how do we move forward? I know that was
a really long answer, kind of pulling in from different things.
- 10 -
Elaine Eschenbacher 42:51
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing
landscape of healthcare?
Theresa Reichert 42:59
I think I'm lucky that I feel like I have a voice with the institution I work for. I have heard and other
people having a very different experience. The leadership team that I work with, and the ways that they
uplift some of the same values that we were working on in school, I think, opens up more curiosity to
different thinking. Then, other places where I maybe have worked. So had I been still teaching and my
other role. I wouldn't have seen it as much, but I do now, see it in my current role. Do you mind
repeating that question one more time?
Elaine Eschenbacher 43:42
Sure. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare?
Theresa Reichert 43:51
So yeah, to go back to it, I have a voice now, in a small ways, in the landscape of my own specific
healthcare institution, I don't feel like I would have had a voice as much in academia. In my previous
experience, only I can only talk about that sliver. But I think once I officially had my degree, then I would
have a voice just based on hierarchy. So even though I did have a voice and was listened to it wasn't
the same. I can see that nursing looks different and it's not always in the hospital, and not always in
academia. And so through this pandemic, and things shifting, and all of the things that have kind of
trickled down I see a lot of work as a nurse actually, in my community. Specifically, there's a lot of racial
bullying in my community. I live near Coldspring, Minnesota Which this last year has had a lot of
racialized incidents. And then the school I send my kids to, also suffers from the myth of that doesn't
happen here. That type of stuff doesn't happen here. And so looking at how that impacts health in small
ways, in my little personal community to and what's my role in helping that as a citizen, but also a
nurse, and a parent and all of the above. So I think all the way that nursing shifts beyond the hospital
walls when I shouldn't say shift, because it's always been beyond the hospital walls. But I see so much
relevance in different ways of impacting the community than I did before.
Elaine Eschenbacher 45:54
Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask?
Theresa Reichert 46:00
You know, I should have prepared for that question. But I didn't. Not now. But the way that I think I'll
think of a million things later on, I'm sure.
- 11 -
Show less
Oral History with Taylor Kuramoto
Wed, 5/18 4:56PM
22:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, thought, math department, bonner, people, teaching, experience, professional,
civic, teacher, olaf, college, feel, civic leadership, adult, talk, education, community, questions
SPEAKERS
Taylo... Show more
Oral History with Taylor Kuramoto
Wed, 5/18 4:56PM
22:44
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, students, thought, math department, bonner, people, teaching, experience, professional,
civic, teacher, olaf, college, feel, civic leadership, adult, talk, education, community, questions
SPEAKERS
Taylor Kuramoto, Katie Clark
Katie Clark 00:03
All right, so thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg
University and the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the citizen professional in
higher education. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the
Executive Director of Health commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 00:23
My name is Taylor Kuramoto. I graduated from Augsburg in May of 2015. And I'm a high school
math teacher currently.
Katie Clark 00:35
Wonderful. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to be
interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 00:46
Yes, I confirm.
Katie Clark 00:50
So, okay, so you just told me when you graduated from Augsburg, could you tell me a little bit
more about your educational background and what you study when you were at Augsburg?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 01:00
Yeah, I was actually a transfer student. So I had started my freshman year. I did my entire
freshman year at St. Olaf and transferred to Augsburg as a sophomore. When I transferred
schools, I basically like had to finish college in like the four years, one year at Augsburg and
three or one year at St. Olaf and three at Augsburg. So I kind of was like forced into majoring in
math, which in hindsight, or when I tell people that it's often like, oh, you you pick something
like actually really hard to major in which I didn't really think about it was just I was a above
average math student in high school and like, had taken calc my freshman year, because I
thought I had to. And math was the only major where I could graduate on time. And I just, there
was no way I could swing funds for a fifth year. So it was math. But it was actually a really great
experience. It was the Math Department and the math professors are like one of my favorite
parts of Augsburg. I did research on campus with oh, I forgot her name. No, but she's in the
social work department. And I wish I remembered, but I did a statistic project of her and I had
professors in the URGO office who helped me get an off campus summer research experience
at the University of Tennessee at Knoxville. And it just being in the math department really
opened up a lot of doors to like experiences that I don't think I ever would have had, like, I'd
never thought I would spend the summer in Knoxville, Tennessee, studying like disease
modeling and cows. And being able to do that then got me a paid trip to a conference in
California, which I never thought I would be doing. But I was at the like national conference for
medical and biological, like modeling and sciences. So that was just yeah, like, I never thought
that was going to be my experience when I started college. And then I actually, so I graduated
Augsburg in May of 2015. And I was abroad, teaching English in South Korea, as like a Fulbright
English Teaching Assistant, and actually came back to Augsburg after that and some more
time, which I'm sure we'll talk about later, and entered the Masters of Arts and Education
program to get licensure to become a high school. Well, 6-12 math teacher. And once I got
licensure, I put pause on the graduate program so that I could get teaching experience. And I
was hired a few months after I finished the program to teach high school in St. Paul Public
Schools at Central High School where I've taught for two years, and I teach her like a range of
ages now.
Katie Clark 04:03
Great. And so in some of these questions, you know, you'll probably talk a little bit about in
multiple different ways. So are multiple different sections, just in case because you've
mentioned some of this already. But yeah. So thinking about your time at Augsburg were the
concepts of the citizen professional civic engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed
in your classes or programs. And if so, which ones if you remember.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 04:30
Not really in my classes, I think just by the nature of being in the math department, but that's
where I'm really grateful for being in Bonner leaders or Lead fellows now. It just added another
dimension to my college experience, like I been in the math department was like, kind of like
one section of my life at Augsburg and I played soccer at Augsburg as well, and that was kind
of like another section of it and being in lead fellows, or Bonner leaders at the time we feel is
now. Yeah, just added another dimension to being a college student that I could tell my peers
who were either just in the math department or just on the soccer team didn't have. And like
that experience of yeah, just, I'm really there that's in Lead fellows and Bonner is where like
civic engagement was talked about, that I otherwise wouldn't have been exposed to in like my
coursework or in the people that I engaged with.
Katie Clark 05:42
Totally, where was your placement when you were a Bonner or lead fellow?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 05:47
Well, I was all over the place. I had been at a after school program in the Phillips neighborhood I
had been at, one summer I was at a church. Also, in the Philips neighborhood, I had been an
intern for the Sabo Center. I also did a public achievement with Dennis Donovan for one, that
might have been a whole year actually. So I had been kind of all over to a lot of different
places. And that's something that I try to, like convey to even my students that I teach now is
like, you're going to learn so much more if you interact with people who have different
experiences than you. And that was like a big takeaway for me from being Bonner leaders and
Lead fellows.
Katie Clark 06:39
So in what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be more
ready for your professional role or civic leadership?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 06:54
I think that like teaching in and of itself is like, civic minded. I even thinking about like, yeah,
just reflecting even on, my last answer maybe wasn't in the math department. But it does come
up in a lot of education courses. Like it doesn't teaching doesn't exist in a vacuum and the ways
that the role of a teaching and like the systems of education interact with policies and
healthcare systems, and our transportation and systemic oppression, like it all just interacts
with each other. And that wasn't something that I really thought about as an undergraduate.
But coming back to Augsburg and being in education courses, and also just having an adults
with like, some lived experiences was helpful. I guess it's what I'm trying to say.
Katie Clark 08:05
Sure. So it prepared you to be in the world as it is maybe not as the world as it should be.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 08:12
Yeah, yeah. Sometimes my students will be like, how do you know XYZ things? And I'm like, I'm
just old.
Katie Clark 08:21
Okay. Okay. So have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement
experience to affect decision making or be an agent of change as a professional?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 08:38
Yeah, like I think being a teacher is all about community. Community in the classroom, but like
also community just like as in the school and in the larger community that your kids come from.
I tried to be at many events for students. It's my third in two weeks now going to some sort of
performance. Tomorrow will be the choir concerts. But and I think to just community is like all
about relationships. And it's, I think it is so hard, nearly impossible to be a good teacher if you
don't have strong relationships with your students with the people who you work with. Yeah.
Katie Clark 09:39
Great. And so this one's a little dense. So if I need to repeat it, okay. But, so, what connections
if any, do you see amongst your professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership? So
professional identity, vocation, very Augsburg, right? and civic leadership. Um and maybe you
don't it doesn't need to be a leading question.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 10:20
Students will often ask me like, if I always knew that I wanted to be a teacher and like, I didn't
think that I wanted to be a teacher. But being at Augsburg, we always talk about vocation. So
it's hard for me to, like convey to students of like, no, I really think this is like my calling. Like, I
think this is what I was, like, meant to do. My professional identity as a teacher. And like, I
really do feel called to teaching and education and in being an Bonner leaders and or lead
fellows, like, I felt called to service. Like, younger me often thought about, like, Oh, I think
working for the government in some sort of, like, research capacity might be what I wanted to
do. But older me was like, that doesn't feel like enough immediate change. And hence, I like,
became a teacher. I think to, like, in turn thinking of civic leadership, like, I can't think of
something more impactful than working with young people. It's always like a joke of like,
teachers are shaping the minds of the future. But sometimes I do look at my students. And I'm
like, wow, you are really brilliant. Like you will do like really great things. That in thinking too,
about, like at St. Paul Public Schools, they're going to start doing graduation requirement for
critical ethnic studies. And a big conversation that we've had at our school, this at our school is
detracking accelerated math classes, because something that we've noticed is that our
accelerated classes are predominantly white and are not accelerated classes are predominantly
students of color. And what I've noticed, because I teach both accelerated and non accelerated
courses is that my classes that are not accelerated, have students of all races and ethnic
backgrounds and they are able to talk to anyone work with anyone. And something that we've
talked about all the time is the ability to, like, work with anyone. And what I've noticed in a lot
of my classes that are mostly white is that they only interact with students who are also white.
And that when they are faced or presented with working with someone who is different than
them, whether that's their race, or ethnicity, or even just somebody who has a different gender
than them or someone who just socializes differently. My students in my accelerated classes
really struggled to work with people who are different from them. And so I think about, I don't
even think about I forced my students to sit in randomly assigned seats every quarter, and they
complain about it. And I always tell them, like, when you leave school, like there are no there
are very few structures of how to practice talking to people who are different than you. And
like, when you are in the world, like everyone is different than everyone, like, you're never the
same as the person that you're working with. And like we have to practice inside these
structures of like, how do I work with talk with ask questions to people who are different than
me? So I think, yeah, in thinking about civic leadership, I take some pride in helping students
be confident in themselves because I know that like that will translate into their adult lives and
their ability to communicate effectively with people just like everyone.
Katie Clark 14:32
That's great. So do you think when you have like a challenge in your current position, or when
you're teaching or you see something in the system? Do you think you're more better equipped
to try to navigate that challenge because of some of your experiences at Augsburg or do you
feel like, you seem like a very like resourceful and diligent and relational person? So do you
think It's just part of who you are, or do you think Augsburg helped to develop some of those
skills during your time at Augsburg?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 15:07
I think Augsburg helps. Um, when when I got to Augsburg I really didn't know like what I wanted
to do or where I wanted to go or any of that and being at all, like when I left as a part of the
reason I left St. Olaf was because I was at like a predominantly white institution that was did
not feel like a safe space. For me as someone who's not white and did not feel like I was
represented in any circles that I was in, socially, or even academically. And I had a lot of like,
negative experiences with students at St. Olaf. And when I got to Augsburg I met so many
people who were like me in the sense of, they were also like, figuring out their identity, how
they move through the world, or they were really confident in who they are, who they are, what
their story is. And it was really like, it felt like a safe space to be just me that I didn't feel like I
could do that at my previous college. And I found a lot of, I also felt like, there were a lot of
people at Augsburg, who, like me, were just like, hustling to get work done. Like, were really
motivated. And I think I maybe just wasn't in the right circles at my first college, but there was
a an aspect of like, community that I felt at Augsburg that I didn't feel like I had at my first one,
whether that's the experience of going through kind of like, racial and ethnic understand
identity, or, and or also just like, working hard, because like, this is this is our one shot and we
like have to take it.
Katie Clark 17:17
Great. So would you say or would you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if you
don't use that term?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 17:31
Taylor Kuramoto 17:31
I think so, I guess like civic or citizen professional? Would that mean like?
Katie Clark 17:41
So probably you probably talked about when you're a Bonner. So basically, like somebody
who's very, like, co creative and engaged in the community around them and can kind of de
emphasize that expert role.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 17:54
Yeah. All the time, kids will be like, is this the answer? And I'm like, You tell me because like,
you have all the knowledge as well. Kids will often ask students will often ask things like, Ah,
this, you know, XYZ, ABC thing isn't fair. And I'm like, It's not fair. What can you do about it?
Like, I am, I am one person. Yes, I am an adult. And I hold this assumed authority as your
educator, but like, your voice, and your power is probably even stronger and more than mine.
So like, what can you do about it? What could you say about it? Who could you organize? Yeah,
and I mean, that's something that I tried to do in classrooms and thinking just about like,
oftentimes, teachers view themselves as the people who hold all the knowledge and all the
power. And that is like the opposite of what I try to do. I've really tried to focus on getting
students to build skills to answer their own questions and solve their own problems. So that is
their teacher and in some art, am in some ways, obsolete, that you don't really need me to
answer your questions, because you know how to answer your own question.
Katie Clark 19:11
Yeah, well, I think one thing that I'm kind of finding throughout these interviews is that
sometimes the language of civic professional or citizen professional, they're kind of used
interchangeably, doesn't really resonate with students at times. So I just wonder if, if the word
is meaningful to you at all? Or if there's a better word or if it seems like it's a good description,
or a good fit, as long as we kind of describe what it is?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 19:45
Yeah, I guess like when I hear the phrase, civic, professional or citizen and professional, it
makes me think of like someone whose role is in service of others, and I don't know if that's
really a correct or approiate way to think of it. Yeah,
Katie Clark 20:03
that's a really good way of saying it. Yeah. I don't know that that's exactly what we're trying to
get at. Right. Thank you for that. So two more questions. And this one is asking you more. Is
there anything that you wish you learned at your time at Augsburg that you didn't? Is there
other opportunities or experience you wish that you had to prepare you for your future career,
or just being in the world as it is?
T
Taylor Kuramoto 20:35
I can't think of anything, either. All of the things that I've the major things that come to my
mind when I think about things I've struggled with after leaving Augsburg are like detailed
things about being an adult, like which health insurance plan I have to choose and like, what's a
deductible, like all of these things that you learn at a certain age? And like, yeah, they matter.
But in the long run, like you have health insurance, or like, filing my taxes is always a pain. But
I've I've, in all of my experiences at Augsburg, I feel I left feeling well, at the time, I didn't leave
feeling very prepared. When I look back on all the experiences I had, I'm really grateful for
everything that I did while I was at Augsburg because when I talked to other people, their
experiences in college were pretty singular, like either they were just doing their major, or they
were like, some of my some people that I know from college, maybe like their highlight of
college was played a sport, or, and their academic work was not as interesting to them, or they
didn't have an experience like Bonner or Sabo scholars or, you know, some other activity to to
balance their experience. I left as an adult looking back, I feel really grateful that I had all of
these different dimensions to to what I did in college.
Katie Clark 22:15
That's beautiful. So the last question is, is there anything you wish that I would have would that
you'd like to share that I didn't ask about? So.
T
Taylor Kuramoto 22:31
I can't think of anything.
Katie Clark 22:34
Great. So that concludes our interview. So thank you for your time today.
Show less
Oral History with Shelley Pacheo (2022)
Mon, 4/4 3:43PM
15:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, civic engagement, student, classes, civic, experiences, professional, vocation, sociology,
graduate, community, huge, talk, civic leadership, term, debate, lead, learn, citizen, working
SPEAKERS
Ka... Show more
Oral History with Shelley Pacheo (2022)
Mon, 4/4 3:43PM
15:16
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, civic engagement, student, classes, civic, experiences, professional, vocation, sociology,
graduate, community, huge, talk, civic leadership, term, debate, lead, learn, citizen, working
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Shelly Pacheco
Katie Clark 00:03
Okay, so thank you for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the civic professional in higher ed. My name is
Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and Executive Director of the Health
Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:24
Yeah, so um, I'm Shelley Pacheco, a third year here at Augsburg double majoring in political
science and sociology. Yes.
Katie Clark 00:36
Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having an interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the
public.
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:47
Yes, I do consent.
Katie Clark 00:49
Great. So when will you graduate from Augsburg University?
S
Shelly Pacheco 00:54
Shelly Pacheco 00:54
I'll be graduating spring 2023. Yes.
Katie Clark 01:01
Great. And can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? And what you're
currently studying at Augsburg?
S
Shelly Pacheco 01:08
Yeah, so I'm doing a double major in political science and sociology, I have always been
interested in social issues that are going on and how, like, it affects my community. So yeah,
I'm really passionate about those things. And I just love giving back to my community. That's a
really core my life and yeah, yes, I'm planning on hopefully getting a job into law enforcement.
Right after I graduate. So yes.
Katie Clark 01:38
How did you choose Augsburg out of all the other universities you could have chosen?
S
Shelly Pacheco 01:43
That's a really interesting question. It i It wasn't my first choice. To be honest. I came here
because of the financial aid. I got a full ride. So I'm like, Yeah, I have to take. So that's pretty
much what I mean after that, like the community so amazing here, though, people, the
students are just very supportive, and it's very diverse. So yeah, I'm glad I came here.
Katie Clark 02:08
Wonderful. So thinking back over your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of the citizen
professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills discussed in your classes or
programs that you've been involved with? And if so, which ones if you do remember?
S
Shelly Pacheco 02:28
Oh, yeah. So I did Summer Bridge in 2019. Summer 2019. And that's when I got introduced to
LEAD Fellows. Um, how I heard about him was through LaToya, I love LaToya. Yes, yeah. So she
introduced me to the program, and suggested that I apply. So I applied and I ended up getting
a job. Minnesota UDL (Urban Debate League), which is like the debate league here in
Minnesota. So I did it for my first year. And then ever since that I've been doing LEAD Fellows.
Right now I'm currently working at Trinity Church, which is like a homework help after school.
So I basically like tutor, mentor, middle school through high school students. But in terms of my
classes, oh, I don't know. I don't. I say only in my sociology. Yeah. And political classes. So I
major classes were like, I hear about civic engagement. I really long like, those are like the
classes were like the require, but like, I have to take them. Yeah. And it's just, yeah, like, it's
mostly like I say, we only talk about it when there's like, something really big going on. But
other than that, like, we just really don't talk about it.
Katie Clark 03:57
So which experiences stand out as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate
lessons across coursework, and community engaged learning? So describe any of those
experiences.
S
Shelly Pacheco 04:13
Can you elaborate on that question?
Katie Clark 04:16
What is trying to ask you this? So some of the stuff that you learned when you were a LEAD
fellow? Were any of those concepts and the concepts we just kind of talked about? And I think
you kind of answered this question. Where are they really in your course work? Could they were
they connected?
S
Shelly Pacheco 04:31
Oh, so for my sociology and law class. We did a project. So I don't know if you remember. Like
the big elections that we just had for the mayor. What is the word I forgot the term as a strong
versus weak mayor and then the public safety department and then the rent bill? Yeah, so
based on those two bills, we did our debate in my class, where we like, invited the public to
learn more about the debate and like what was going to be on the ballot. So that really like that
is really shows how like, my sociology class was really intertwined with my LEAD fellow. So very
engaging work. So yeah, it was really interesting. We did debate, had to write an essay and
then we also did our newspapers, through the echo.
Katie Clark 05:30
So would you say any of your time that you're like tutoring at Trinity? Does any of that those
experiences really pertain? Or help you better understand any of your coursework?
S
Shelly Pacheco 05:45
Oh, well, I'm not really like an education major. I say, it's mostly, like, for me how I can better
tell, like, bringing like cultural awareness in my classroom and like, be a better leader for those
kids. So yeah.
Katie Clark 06:04
In what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg prepare you to be ready for a
professional role or civic leadership when you graduate?
S
Shelly Pacheco 06:15
Oh, I think for me, it's mostly LEAD fellows, that's like a been, it's been really helpful in my
here, like my years here at Augsburg. We'll learn about social issues that are going, on how to
be a better student, how to like, fight against the status quo, you know. I think like having
those talks and like with my classmates, and like, talk about those topics, like it's really huge,
and like, also the student orgs here at Augsburg I know, this year, they did a lot of focus
groups, more like they will bring our students and alumni, talk about their experiences here at
Augsburg, like what it means to be a minority here are experts. So I think like the student orgs
and LEAD fellows, they're just like, really big on those topics.
Katie Clark 07:24
So have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experiences to
affect decision making or be an agent of change as a professional? If so, how? So learned any
real skills from your community engagement time or LEAD fellow time that has allowed you to
feel like you could create change when you see it needed?
S
Shelly Pacheco 07:54
Oh, yeah. I'm also in student government I'm the junior class president, and it's just been really
interesting to see how there's so many student concerns going on. And there's just barely
enough time to like, do something about these issues. All right, now we're working on parking.
Parking is really bad for commuters. There's no really no spaces. But DPS continues on selling
passes, even though there's not many slots. So yeah, that's just a really huge thing. And I think
like, just learning about student concerns, and like, what I think about my personal opinions,
you know, like, yeah, like parking is a huge thing here on campus. But there's also like other
things that might be more important to other students. So I think like setting aside my personal
opinion, and like the student concerns is really interesting for me. Yeah, it's just like, student
government, like really helps you like, use your civic engagement skills.
Katie Clark 09:04
So what connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and
civic leadership? It's kind of a dense question. So what connections between professional
identity or where you are thinking you'll end up but I would say you probably have a
professional identity now your vocation and then civic leadership.
S
Shelly Pacheco 09:29
Yeah, so like I said, Before, I have always, I just love giving back to my community and just
Yeah, so like I said, Before, I have always, I just love giving back to my community and just
anything so I, if I do become part of law enforcement, I think like civic engagement is gonna be
a huge thing in my life where like, I have to decide what given back to my community or like,
given to like the broader community here in the US. I'm a minority, so like, working for people
that are not minority, it's just like gonna put me in that position where like, well, what did I do?
Like, did I listen to my community or listen to like folks who are not like me. And I didn't just
being in that position. Like, it just shows how like, my civic engagement skills are gonna be put
into play, you know, like, I have two make those big decisions. And in terms of my vocation I
don't know, I just feel like, like I know Augsburg is like really huge on that like, oh, like, you
gotta find your vocation, like, what's your vocation? You know? So yeah, it's just, it's just a lot
to navigate as a junior right now, like, you have to think about what you're going to do after
you graduate? Like, is this something that it's going to give back to you communities is
something that you're really passionate about? Or you're just doing it because of like, the
financial barrier?
Katie Clark 11:01
Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional? Even if you don't use that specific term? If
you do, can you describe that or explain it to others? It was probably a term you use when
you're a LEAD fellow, a civic, or citizen, professional, so kind of somebody who's engaged in the
community around them. Do you see yourself as being an engaged citizen?
S
Shelly Pacheco 11:31
Oh, yeah, I mean, I say right now, I'm pretty involved here at Augsburg. I do a lot of things that
I can reflect on. I don't think I am a like civic professional right now. And even like, after I
graduate, like, just given back to the community, it's just a really huge thing in my life.
Katie Clark 12:00
Great. Is there anything that you wish you would have learned at your time at Augsburg, but
you haven't yet?
S
Shelly Pacheco 12:13
Well I just wish we have a done mentor mentee program. Like as a first gen, there's like a lot
that I had to do for myself. Like there's a lot of places are like even like for my major, like, I'm
not really used to like a how to navigate all of this like for myself, by myself. Like there's no
like, really anyone holding me accountable for my grades. My class, like the classes I gotta
take, like, what? What is there to do after you graduate? So I think if Ausburg had a program,
like a mentee, mentor, mentee program like that will be really helpful for like, first gen students
here at Augsburg.
Katie Clark 12:56
Is there other opportunities or experiences that you wish you would have had to prepare you
Is there other opportunities or experiences that you wish you would have had to prepare you
for your future career while you're here?
S
Shelly Pacheco 13:03
I think just more hands on, like, I know, for my classes, like it's just mostly lecture. And there's
not really like any activities where like, you have to engage with your students, your
classmates, and they're just like, a lot go. Like relationship between like you and your
classmates, I guess, like you go to class, you sit, there, listen to me 45 minutes for lecture. And
after that you leave, like, no one else really talks to each other outside of class. And like, only
when it's like required to like, do class or were like, oh, yeah, I have to tell to like the person
right next to me. And now because I want to because it's required for me to do so I think just
like having more hands on projects will be really helpful.
Katie Clark 13:49
So when we talk about the concepts like civic agency, you know, citizen professional, those
words, in particular, do those words resonate with you? Or do you can you think of other better
terminology that would better kind of get at what we're trying to say? Especially, you know,
with your generation.
S
Shelly Pacheco 14:12
Right. Think like civic engagement is pretty straightforward. Like it says on the term, the like,
yeah, like, it's like about social issues, just bringing awareness to what's going on in the world.
So yeah, I think it is good to use those terms.
Katie Clark 14:33
Great. Well, that's all the questions that I have for you. So is there anything you would like to
share with us that I didn't ask?
S
Shelly Pacheco 14:42
No, I think it's good that like Augsburg really cares about their students and like it's asking
about their experiences with civic engagement and like, with everything that it's that has been
going on, like, I'm glad that like, it doesn't go unnoticed. You know, like, there's actually like
research been done here at Augsburg for students so that's good.
Katie Clark 15:06
Well that concludes our interview so I just want to thank you for your time
S
Shelly Pacheco 15:10
S
Shelly Pacheco 15:10
thank you
Show less
Oral History with Oscar Martinez (2022)
Thu, 3/24 5:54PM
28:08
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, augsburg, community, civic, learning, professional, bonner, daily struggles, vocation, graduated,
work, college, feel, tutoring, affect, interview, company, harder, related, prepare
SPEAKERS
Katie C... Show more
Oral History with Oscar Martinez (2022)
Thu, 3/24 5:54PM
28:08
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
people, augsburg, community, civic, learning, professional, bonner, daily struggles, vocation, graduated,
work, college, feel, tutoring, affect, interview, company, harder, related, prepare
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Oscar Martinez
Katie Clark 00:00
All right. Well, thank you for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University
and the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the Civic Professional in higher
education. My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing. Could you please
introduce yourself for the recording?
O
Oscar Martinez 00:43
Yes, my name is Oscar Martinez-Armenta. I'm an Augsburg alum. I graduated at 2016. And I'm
now working as a quality technician.
Katie Clark 00:55
Great. And also, before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having your interview stored at Augsburg University, which we which will be
made available to the public.
O
Oscar Martinez 01:08
I consent to all of that
Katie Clark 01:10
Thank you. When did you graduate from Augsburg?
O
Oscar Martinez 01:15
Oscar Martinez 01:15
Spring 2016.
Katie Clark 01:18
Great. Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied
while you were at Augsburg?
O
Oscar Martinez 01:25
Well, I got a Bachelors of Science in chemistry from the kind of knew before I started college
that I wanted to pursue a STEM related subject. I think there was time in high school my junior
where I had doubts about my abilities to speak and write English well. So I try to stray away
from any related to writing and speaking in English, and I felt that a STEM degree would push
me in the right direction, that's one of the major reasons I choose chemistry. But then I actually
fell in love with the subject. And that's that stuff.
Katie Clark 02:23
Well, thinking back over your time at Augsburg, where the concepts of citizen professional,
civic engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed in any of your classes or programs
that you were involved with?
O
Oscar Martinez 02:44
My professors were really good about having speakers come in and discuss what the
community on campus had about volunteering, and being part of other groups on campus. And
we went kind of walking through hallways looking at the posters and what was on the websites.
So it was easy for me to see some of the opportunities that were available in regard to civic
engagement, and whatnot. And even before I started seeing things like the announcements
before I started college, it was kind of something I knew I wanted to do, just because I was
already doing it in high school. So I wanted to I wanted to have a healthy balance of education
in the classroom. And kind of participation out in the community, especially in the surrounding
community.
Katie Clark 03:55
Great! Which of the experiences that you had while you're at Augsburg stand out as really
meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect, or integrate lessons across coursework and
community engaged learning? (Laughter) I don't even remember the name of the program
anymore. it's okay if you don't remember the name of the program, but do you remember
doing something that was related to community engagement?
O
Oscar Martinez 04:39
Yeah.
Katie Clark 04:45
Well, there's the Christianson scholars. There's a Strommen scholars. There's the Bonner
student or LEAD fellow.
O
Oscar Martinez 04:53
There we go - Bonner! Elaine is going to hate me for that one! (Laughter). So, when I was a
Bonner I got placed at this nonprofit organization, and that was pushing the price for the low
wage workers to a minimum of $15 an hour. And prior to being placed there, I had heard about
(you know) why this push was happening, but actually working in different outlook and put a
face to the fight, rather than just reading about it. And it's helped me connect with people in
see how they are pursuing that people have to live, they have to buy food, get transportation,
to feed the families, and really connected and made me understand why people were doing
what they were fighting for themselves. It's just like, I was able to chat with a lot of people and
understanding the struggle. And just being part of that felt like that I was doing something
meaningful in the community. Great. And were you able to take any of those experiences and
bring them back into your coursework? Or did it feel kind of disconnected? It felt somewhat
disconnected. Just because my classroom, I mean, again my courses, well at the beginning not
so much. They were pretty well rounded. You have your other courses to get your degree like
this chemistry. And then you have a little bit others English, music, related closely. You have
religion. But once I got to a higher level courses. Yes, much higher level courses began my
junior year or senior year. I don't have a well rounded coursework anymore. It's mainly STEAM
related. And for me its been stuck in the lab a lot. And during experiements so you kind of have
professors try to connect what were learning to the outside world, you know, learning electrons,
explaining how we can use that in the world. But really tying to some other things that I was
experiencing. What's the daily struggle of some living across the street - well I don't know, I am
not learning that in my chemistry class. So yeah, it was disconnected, feel like I was living in
different worlds. Especially as an upperclassman. Well, so it makes me really excited to hear
your answer for the next question. Did any of the civic learning experiences, like being a
Bonner, prepare you to be ready for a professional or civic or your professional role or even
involved in civic leadership, once you graduated?
Katie Clark 08:35
Yes, and no. I mean, out of college, and I still do some tutoring, as well come right out of
college. Thinking about keep helping out in the community. But I also needed to make a living
as well. So I was like, Okay, well, my first year I did a little bit of tutoring outside of work. But
then I got to the point where I just kind of focused on work and just hanging out with friends
and family and not so much so civic engagment and it's been like that for a few years now. I've
just kind of dedicated more time and energy towards my professional career and not so much
to civic engagment. So start off well but...
O
Oscar Martinez 09:35
O
Oscar Martinez 09:35
That's okay. All circles back. Right. Well, and so this question is similar but comes at a different
angle. So have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experience
to affect your decision making or be an agent of change as a professional so you kind of
already answered the second part, but has it affected your decision making Since you've
graduated in any way? Yeah, when it is asked like that, yes because I'm trying to grow as a
professional. I'm always conscious of the people that I'm working with, regardless of what level
they are in the company. And so you know, some of some of the decisions that I get to make
are pretty important and affect how some of my co workers have worked. So, before I try to
implement certain actions, I try to ask them to see how its going to impact them as they are
going to be the ones doing the the day to day work for some of the decisions that I made, so I
try to make sure that it's not too much time to their work. And it's not too late and intensive for
them. And we're not I've always been a people person, too. So it's, I try to connect with my
coworkers. And of course, I respect personal boundaries, and I understand theere are different
personalities, your introverts and extroverts try to meet people where they are at. So yeah, I
mean, you know, as I grew up professionally, I don't want some of those. I don't want some of
that to change for me. You know, I try to respect people, and try to find ways to make it not
harder. And I think right now we're on emotionless. That's kind of like the attitude of the people
here. The word culture is really great. I mean, people are trying to get along, and I'm trying to
grow with this company. But you know, being where I'm at, I'm somewhere in a company where
I'm on the floor with a lot of production employees. So I know their daily struggles. But I also
interact with upper management, folks up in front of offices, so I get to see their take. So as I
grew up, and grow in the company and get to some of those upper management roles, like, I'll
definitely have some of those thoughts. You know, in the back of my head, and keep in mind,
the daily struggles of people trying to serve them. That was a long response, but yes, I feel like
some of it. I do apply some of those skills, and knowledge that I've learned in my professional
life, and I try to take care of people I work with and its worked out so far.
Katie Clark 13:07
Well, it sounds like you're very relational. And actually, you're actually very political when
you're at work, which really is being, you know, being involved in democratic everyday life and
being a citizen professional, butsometimes you don't recognize that that's so important. So
kudos to you. So given that, you know, I can see, you know, being a nurse, I could see how
STEM may have a disconnect, or, you know, careers following. Is there something at Augsburg
that you wish you would have had to prepare you for the career that you do have in in context
to it could really be anything, but this is kind of my own question, just thinking about career
readiness. And we often think this, about this through the lens of being involved in the
community. But is there something else that would have better prepared you for the world as it
is in your profession? Yeah, so throughout college did a really good job of getting internships
and academic labs, or going into school or academically. So, I mean, enhancing my lab skills.
Looking back now, I wish I would have done some industrial experience more industrial
experience, because I get to see how people operate and what happens when the other
managers who disagree with you, as opposed to what they call principal investigator or PI, like
the lab supervisor, they're gonna be a little more lenient with you, or at least they should be.
So whereas industrical experience as you know, people have to meet deadlines, they have to
send out auits and they are going to have to deal with complaints? And so I didn't get that in
college. So then I wish I would have learned how to deal with real life a little more, especially
with different people and other baggage. I wish I would have been more industrial.
O
Oscar Martinez 15:30
Thank you for answering that. That's helpful. So what connections, if any, do you see among
professional identity, your vocation and civic leadership? Do you see any connections between
those? Full disclosure, Elaine wrote these not me. So if you can yell at her later. Yeah, of
course, what connections do you see among your professional identity, your vocation, and your
civic leadership? Well, at least on a personal level, you know, even the company where I work
for it, you know, we make products for the vehicle care industry. And they have this model
website, they have a lot. And one of those ways of seeing water reveals of chemistry, right. But
you know, when I see videos are of a product we make, and that's the logo, we're still using
modern, a lot of things and we are so wasteful, so trying to see like how I can help improve
academic, it'd be great if we wouldn't waste water period. There are a lot of places that need it,
like California has their own struggles. Places in Africa. So that's, that's in the back of my head,
because I started there as well, because it would cool if I was working something more green.
Katie Clark 17:21
Sure.
O
Oscar Martinez 17:22
And then my company's trying to actually reduce the amount of water that we waste. So you
know, I'm trying to go with a company, they're trying to do something that's meaningful for the
community and actually helps. But sometimes I still struggle with that. And that kind of ties into
location, I feel because you're, I mean, it's for me, I want to do something that affects a lot of
people in a beneficial way. And it doesn't affect a lot of it doesn't reach a lot people, at least,
it's only a few people, at least it It reaches them in a substantial way. So I don't know. It's it's
kind of, sometimes I feel like it's kind of hard to balance all those things, you know, trying to
grow within your profession, doing something for your communities, finding your vocation. If it
was up to me, I was I would try to start a company where I'm hiring people who are from
underprivileged communities and really need a job, but also grow within these companies, and
are making a product that's affecting the community in a very impactful way. I don't know what
that product is, you know, if I could get there, I would, you know, that kind of would connect
also this component that you're talking about. But as it stands, you know, I can't tell you like,
sacrificing any of those components, like, you know, when any given day at my work place I'm,
honestly, I'm still trying to find my vocation. So I don't know, maybe I'll have a clear answer in
the future, but there is, like really weak answer. What do I want? What kind of legacy do I want
in my community? Because, you know, like, when I'm at work, I'm interacting with some
customers, but I'm not always interacting with people that are affecting, you know, like, far
down the road, far down the road. So if I could have a more direct relationship with my
customers, people in the community, I don't know, maybe people's gardens, you know,
something along those lines? Yeah, sorry. No, these answers are great. And exactly what we're
hoping to hear more of, because we're learning more about what this means to you and what
the realities are. I mean, so would you say that you consider yourself a civic professional? Or
what maybe I'm hearing that that's what you're striving to be? Striving to be but I wouldn't
consider myself one. You know, like I said, my company handled how things are wasted. You
know, I mean, if you break it down, I mean, technically I am serving communities to help
eliminated or reduce waste, but it's very different from what I experienced in college, having
more direct relationship out with community members, like right now this year, like I'm working
with people who are paid to do their job as opposed to working as opposed to people who
volunteered to work for nonprofits, or things like that to have more genuine interest and like,
humanistic. Kind of feels like sometimes I'm just waiting people like this as they are learning.
Katie Clark 21:41
Sure.
O
Oscar Martinez 21:43
Even though the companies might be geared towards positive incentives and always feel
genuine.
Katie Clark 21:49
Sure. Well, then the last question really is there anything you would like to share that I didn't
ask about? Well, and I think the purpose of this interview is too to better understand what
happens when people graduate and does their vocation or their interests change when people
maybe aren't as engaged? Or is it that it's that much harder? So how can we better prepare
students for the realities they're going to face when life gets crazy and busy with all the things
you just said, and just a little bit that I've heard you say, makes me really think that you are the
person that we want to have in our communities, in our workplaces, and just the little that you
do every day thinking through who people are and their relationships. I think that you are doing
those things and so don't don't beat yourself up. For sure, but we're always happy to have you
circle back. So anyhow, that concludes the interview. So I'm gonna hit pause in just a second.
But thank you for the interview and your time.
O
Oscar Martinez 22:07
I mean, I really touched base on this a little bit but you know, like yeah, when I was when I was
a high school junior or a high school sophomore but I was very good about finding ways to stay
engaged. I wanted to teach those students about the negative impacts of drinking alcohol
under the age and how that effected brain development, tutoring, prepping meals at open arms
an organization working with people with chronic illnesses, I was very good about finding
opportunities and making time for them and then college embedded in my academics again
and I tried to do it once they graduated. Yet been playing back and you know, when this
interview was brought out, it kind of made me think a little harder too. You know I do think
about every day they think about what I want my legacy to be and what kind of impact I want
to have. That's the whole reason everybody goes to me reasons why I did what I did. And it's
been hard to do that now. Obviously, like the way that married, have kids, but mean maybe it's
maybe it's me not putting enough effort to find out but but I just feel disengaged. I know it'd be
good to go back to so of that so I don't know. Maybe you or Elaine or somebody else has
opportunities that I'm unaware that he helped me jump into some of those things. But as it
stands I haven't really. I've just been disengaged for the last five years. Thank you.
Show less
Oral History with MyKenzie Bender (2022)
3/23/2022 • 32:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, nursing, people, patients, concepts, learning, Namibia, experiences, feel, advocating,
homes, little bit, community, DNP, change, talked, important, staffing ratios, terms
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbach... Show more
Oral History with MyKenzie Bender (2022)
3/23/2022 • 32:25
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, nursing, people, patients, concepts, learning, Namibia, experiences, feel, advocating,
homes, little bit, community, DNP, change, talked, important, staffing ratios, terms
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Mykenzie
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:08
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University in the Kettering
Foundation, exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is Elaine
Eschenbacher, and I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work and
Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Mykenzie 00:28
Yes, my name is Mykenzie Bender. I'm a DNP FNP students at Augsburg.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:36
Before we get started, I just want to confirm that you do consent to be interviewed and having that
interview stored at Augsburg University where it could be made available tothe public.
Mykenzie 00:47
Yes, I consent.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:48
Great, thank you. We'll start out hopefully kind of easy. Tell me a little bit about your education
background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg.
Mykenzie 00:58
Sure. Prior to Augsburg, I went to community college and attended even while I was in high school still,
and then I went to another university to finish off my BSN. And currently, I'm at Augsburg in my third
year of the DNP FNP program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:14
Great. Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being
engaged with community?
-1-
Mykenzie 01:26
Before I came to Augsburg, I worked a lot in homecare nursing. So I feel like that has a lot to do with
the community. You're in people's homes working in within different places in the community because
you take your patients out. So making sure that you put on a good presence in the community and
make sure you're a good example as a nurse, I guess.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:54
And then similar question, how did you view before coming to Augsburg? How did you view yourself in
relationship to being able to create change within an institution or even within healthcare?
Mykenzie 02:05
Sure, um, prior to coming to Augsburg, my previous universities and actually my previous jobs were big
into lobbying at the Capitol. So I have done a few days on the Hill for different things related to the
nursing profession. And so I do have a little bit experience with that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:37
Since being at Augsburg, has it has your view of being a nurse changed? And if so, how?
Mykenzie 03:06
I would say probably incorporating holistic practice into, you know, my everyday nursing life has kind of
changed. I think we've learned a lot of a lot about different techniques and things that we can include.
And I guess, in my previous education, I didn't have that. And I think incorporating that into the nurse,
my nursing care now just makes me a better nurse in general and can reach different types of patients.
Elaine Eschenbacher 03:37
Could you describe a little bit maybe an example or just how you think about incorporating holistic
practice into your nursing?
Mykenzie 03:45
Sure, I suppose if I have a really anxious patient, I might recommend to them, like some guided
imagery, I could probably lead that if they were, like open to that. I think as a future nurse practitioner,
you know, referring to things like acupuncture, chiropractic, massage therapy, that might not have been
in my wheelhouse prior to coming to Augsburg, but now I think I feel more comfortable advocating for
those kinds of things.
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:23
So thinking back on your time at Augsburg, I'm going to ask you about a few different concepts and
whether you remember them being discussed in your in your classes, and if so, which ones? So citizen
professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills, any of those ring a bell in terms of
memories of specific classes?
Mykenzie 04:45
-2-
I would say yes, I do remember those from my earlier classes. Now that I'm more into the clinical
rotations and such, we don't talk about that as much, but I do remember those terms. From earlier
classes.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:02
What stands out to you in terms of what you remember from those classes about those terms?
Mykenzie 05:10
I feel like a lot of them were about making change within the community or within nursing. I don't really
know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:20
That's okay. This isn't a test. We're just trying to assess what people take in and what they don't. So
any answer is useful. Are there any specific experiences or pedagogical practices that you had in the
classroom that helped you gain an understanding of the role of a citizen professional or of a citizen
nurse? So I'm asking you to go back a couple years, and I know you've got a full life.
Mykenzie 05:56
I'm trying to think what we did. I mean, some of the practicum experiences we had. I went to Namibia.
And so we talked a lot about different aspects of nursing. And I would say, civic engagement, while we
were there. Oh, my gosh, it's so hard to remember. I'm trying to think of other practicums I had.
Elaine Eschenbacher 06:29
Well, let's stick with Namibia for a minute. Maybe. Can you think of an example or a story from your
experience in Namibia that illustrates that a little bit?
Mykenzie 06:55
So I remember, in Namibia, we had a lot of different speakers come and talk to us about different
issues within the community. Some of them were related to HIV AIDS, tuberculosis, women's rights.
And so kind of learning about what people are doing in Namibia to advocate and make change was,
was a big thing that we learned about. I felt like a lot of the things that they were doing in Namibia were
also similar to what is happening in the United States. So I thought that was kind of cool to see that
comparison.
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:37
So what similarities? Did you see? I'm not a nurse, I'm not in that world. So you can tell it to me like, I
don't know what I'm talking about.
Mykenzie 07:46
Yeah. So I think women's rights was something we talked about. I think, you know, there's inequality in
the United States with pay or just with who gets to make decisions? I don't know where I want to go
with this.
Elaine Eschenbacher 08:11
-3-
It sounds like you were seeing some of the same issues in two different contexts, right?
Mykenzie 08:18
Yeah, they might have been at different stages within the, like movement, I guess. Or I feel like Namibia
was of maybe a few years behind or a decade behind the United States and in things that progress
they've made, I guess, but you could still see there's a large correlation between the issues.
Elaine Eschenbacher 08:41
Yeah. Um, do other examples from other practicums come to mind? of things you did that help to kind
of illustrate those concepts?
Mykenzie 08:58
I can't really, I'm trying to think of what else I did. I mean, I went to Harmony, but I don't really know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:09
What's Harmony?
Mykenzie 09:11
The Amish community?
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:13
Okay. Tell me a little bit about that.
Mykenzie 09:17
Well, when we were in Harmony, I guess we went around and went to people's houses, different
members of the Amish community. We sat down and learned about their stories and what their day to
day life looks like. Visited some of their shops, just engaged with them and kind of got to see what their
life look like compared to ours. Talked a lot about how they view healthcare and how they access
health care, which is very different than how I may access health care.
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:54
So going into people's homes and hearing stories is not what people typically think of with health care
or health education. Right? So tell me a little bit about why that's important, or why what you got out of
that is maybe a better question. In terms of your nursing education.
Mykenzie 10:14
Yeah. So I think going into people's homes and actually hearing their stories, you can see firsthand
what their life might look like. And you can kind of get a better grasp of what they're talking about. I
think people are more comfortable in their homes, so they're able to open up better to you and give you
more of the real side of how they feel about different scenarios. Whether it's accessing healthcare or
how they feel when they access health care, how like providers or nurses might interact with them?
They might give you kind of a more in depth thought process, they might open just opened up to you
better. In pediatric homecare, which I used to do, I still do a little bit of you just really build connections
with people, and you learn a lot more than if you would just in a clinic setting.
-4-
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:14
I think regardless of what words you use, the kind of idea of a citizen professional directly connects to
understanding the broader context of a person's life and the broader context of society. So I mean,
those examples illustrate that really well, I think, thank you. This might feel like a little bit of a leading
question, but do you feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare
institutions because of your educational experience at Augsburg?
Mykenzie 11:53
Yeah, I would say so I feel like Augsburg really pushes us to speak out and be heard. I guess through
our practicum experiences and through like presentations and things that we do throughout the
program, I think it kind of strengthens our ability to speak out and to make change every there's like
building blocks that they kind of use, through each class that I feel like helps us gain those skills.
Elaine Eschenbacher 12:34
What are, if you can recall, what are some of the building blocks or some of the skills that have been
touched on or used?
Mykenzie 12:42
Sure. So I feel like first we'll get a lecture on different topics, then we might do a discussion board
where we sit down and think about our ideas and kind of formulate them. But then we'll also be required
to do a verbal presentation so that we're getting those skills and that practice, which I may need more
of. But I do think that they push us to use that and to participate then in the hands on things with the
practicum.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:16
So it's a level of engagement that you couldn't possibly get from lecture alone.
Mykenzie 13:22
Correct.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:31
Do you have any examples bigger small from your own work, of being involved in change making or
even decision making? That kind of represent that, that sort of more engaged style of, of nursing?
Mykenzie 13:52
Sure. So I, like I mentioned before have worked in pediatric home care, and have been a part of
different days on the hill at the Capitol, where we talk to different legislators, oftentimes about getting
more money, more funding for the services that are provided in the homes, a lot of times we will bring
patients with us so that they can share their story. Just like I was saying, it's important to get in the
home, to really get down to the nitty gritty, what day to day life looks like I think people in the legislation
might not really understand and see where there's needs within the healthcare system. So taking the
patients there, I think helps open their eyes to where change can be made. And so I think, just
-5-
advocating for situations like that to happen often and frequently, and to get on the couch as some
people say. To get to know people, and not just from like a board room or something.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:08
So you use the word advocating? I can see that's that's one of the roles. It also seems in some ways,
like you're kind of a translator or an interpreter, helping legislators understand the lived realities of
people who are facing obstacles with health and health care.
Mykenzie 15:29
Exactly. Yep.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:39
Thinking back on kind of your education experiences at Augsburg, what could have helped you better
understand the civic skills or these concepts that we've been highlighting in this interview?
Mykenzie 15:56
Yeah, I think like, I clearly remember learning about those terms, but they're not carried out throughout
the program. Maybe they are in the first few classes, and there's different overlap. But now like I, I can
barely even tell you the definition, which is sad. But like, I understand the concepts, I think. But yeah, I
think we lose those once we get to this portion of the program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:29
I hear that. Yeah. So if you had to do a really messy, bad job of describing what those concepts mean,
what would you say? This is not a test, and you don't have to be perfect.
Mykenzie 16:40
I would say like, advocating for change within the community. Getting to know people not just making
assumptions. I don't know making asking people what they want to be changed, not what you think
should be changed, kind of engaging with the community itself, not from the outside.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:05
Yeah, that one seems so basic, but it's not right. It's not how we typically do things at all. So thinking
back on those various concepts, which, which concepts or issues were the most challenging to grasp or
understand? If you remember?
Mykenzie 17:26
Oh, gosh, I know. I'm not sure.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:32
Okay, that's cool. Your head has been in a different space for the last several months. Yeah, got it.
Okay, so did any of these course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice
or understanding of the profession of nursing?
Mykenzie 18:05
-6-
I think just open up and listen to people's stories and not make assumptions about things. Meeting
people where they are, I think, is important too. Sometimes you can only make a small amount of
change if that's what someone's willing to, to agree upon. You don't just want to go in and say we're
gonna change 30 things within how you live your life and to better your health, because that's just not
attainable for them. Yeah, so I don't know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 19:05
So again, thinking back on your experiences at Augsburg, this isn't about the concept so much is about
how you reflect. Which experiences in your education at Augsburg stand out to you as the most
meaningful opportunities to like learn, reflect and integrate ideas across core coursework and
community engagement?
Mykenzie 19:27
Yeah, I think the practicum experiences are huge. Not only is it fun to travel, but you get to like, you get
to meet your other classmates who are also nurses who have different backgrounds, different
experiences. The professors all have different and unique experiences to share with each other and
through the practicums we can really get to know each other and open up and learn not only from
wherever we're going or whatever we're learning about but each other as well. So I think it's super
important to have within the program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:03
It sounds like there's a parallel there, where you're asked to get to know your patients in a more holistic
way through the practicums you're also getting to know your classrooms and your professors in a more
holistic way.
Mykenzie 20:12
Exactly, yeah. And I feel like you learn just as much from your classmates as you do from the
communities that you go into.
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:32
So is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't or haven't
yet?
Mykenzie 20:44
I think it'd be cool to do more like advocating. Like picking a topic that we could advocate for and
maybe do an assignment on that, or something at our work that we want to change and maybe make a
proposal or something. Just so that it feels more realistic. Not just like, we're talking about how to make
change and how to get involved, but actually doing it. I mean, I know that can maybe be linked to our
DNP project in a way, that'd be kind of cool. I don't know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:28
If that was an assignment, what are some of the issues or topics that you would be interested in digging
into?
-7-
Mykenzie 21:35
I mean, for nurses, like staffing ratios is huge. Allocation of funds, maybe access to holistic things for
our patients, because oftentimes, a lot of therapies aren't covered under insurance. So maybe I'm
looking into that, how could we advocate for change to insurance companies even?
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:04
Yeah, and if you move the dial on any of those, it could really change the way healthcare operates,
significantly. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Mykenzie 22:26
That's a loaded question.
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:30
That's what we do here, we ask loaded questions.
Mykenzie 22:33
Um it's interesting, because at first, I feel like nurses were made as heroes and that we were like, put
on a pedestal by like, social media. And, I mean, I remember watching CNN and like whole
communities clapping outside of their windows for the nurses. But then at the same time, like we didn't
have PPE or anything. And nobody seemed to care. I would be in people's homes, and I didn't have like
proper equipment to take care of them. Well, you put your life on the line, essentially. I mean, I would
reuse masks that clearly are not supposed to be reused or never had any for a long time, I would just
wear a piece of cloth on my face. But then you would see people in the community wearing n95s. And
the government was nowhere to be seen. Um, I think there's a huge need for change to come after the
pandemic is over. I think in five to 10 years, we'll learn a lot about how things need to be different, how
we need to be better prepared. And I think nurses are the ones who are going to be at the forefront of
making that change and preparing for a future pandemic or future situation.
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:33
That's a really powerful statement. You sort of summed it all up, but I'm going to back up a little bit. Do
you feel like you have been able to have a voice in making decisions in this kind of constantly changing
landscape of healthcare?
Mykenzie 24:50
Um, I mean, I don't feel like right now, no. I feel like we are still like, in the midst of everything. It's
getting better But I feel like I have to focus more on taking care of patients. Yep. That necessarily
having time to like, advocate for change or being involved in decision making. Yeah, I but I would like to
in the future for sure.
Elaine Eschenbacher 25:17
Yeah. And that has to do with staffing ratios and everything else you just mentioned. Yeah, yeah, I hear
that. So you talked about how you feel like as a result of the pandemic, things have to change. And in
five years, we'll be learning a lot. And we'll we'll be sort of faced with you didn't use this word, but I'm
going to like a reckoning, right? And nurses are going to have to be at the forefront of it. What are some
-8-
things that are going to have to break or change or be transformed or, you know, be disrupted to make
that happen?
Mykenzie 25:55
Yeah, I think people who make decisions need to actually see what it's like to be a nurse, and what
what goes on day to day. I mean, you hear people are dying, but I don't think people really get that you
don't see that you don't see that what the nurses do, or the toll it puts on your body. And I mean, I am
nowhere near what some ICU nurses have had to experience seeing death day to day, but I
experienced what families feel in their homes being isolated with their ventilator dependent patient
who's two years old and hasn't met family members yet, because they're scared that they're gonna get
sick and die. They don't want to go to critical doctor's appointments sometimes, because they don't
want to put them at risk of getting sick. But I don't know, I think I think really seeing things firsthand is
important. I think listening to stories of nurses is going to be important to make change. And then really
just looking at how ill prepared we were. And being able to say, Yes, we were not prepared, not saying,
you know, like, we could have done better and admitting that we could have done better, I think is a big
thing.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:33
And evaluated, honestly. Yeah. Because sometimes I think it's like we did as best we could. But did we
really, I guess is a big thing. So when you think about the decision makers who need to actually be
listening and be making those kinds of things? Like who are the decision makers that you're thinking
of?
Mykenzie 28:08
I mean, hospital administrators, government officials, I think it's important for actual nurses to get in
those types of roles, too, maybe have a better voice and understanding? I don't know, I think that would
help.
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:26
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Um, that's the end of the formal questions now that you know, kind of
what we're going for. Is there anything else that you would like to add that I didn't ask?
Mykenzie 28:47
I don't think so. If I would have taken time to actually look up the terms I probably could have.
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:53
Well, we weren't asking for any pre work. So
Mykenzie 28:56
I worked until like, 11. Last night.
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:59
You did great. And part of the purpose of this literally, is to get that kind of honest feedback and honest
reaction at people from people at different stages of their education. So we're talking to people who are
-9-
in different nursing programs and Augsburg as well as graduates. And it's super useful to hear what
sticks and what doesn't, right and how it sticks. If it does.
Mykenzie 29:24
I totally remember the terms but like, I, I'm more focused on pharmacology, right.
Elaine Eschenbacher 29:32
Totally understandable. And really good feedback for the nursing department to hear that. That that's
the reality of students, right?
Mykenzie 29:43
Yeah. And it's interesting because right now what we're doing, we kind of wish we would have done
that more at the like a little bit more in the beginning. So I think just kind of like, making it more equal
throughout with the different types of courses might be easier.
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:00
Say a little bit more about wishing that you had more.
Mykenzie 30:03
Yeah, like, wishing we would have had like some of our courses related to like health assessment. Or
we're learning about things right now that we should have already learned prior to clinical. So like,
different disease processes, like, but then we see it in clinical. And we're like, oh, we don't know
anything about that yet. We should have been educated on that sooner. But now, clearly, I don't
remember different terms that we should know. But we focus very heavily on that in the front end. So I
think just making it more equal throughout would probably be make it a better like, well rounded
program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:46
I'm curious. And this this, I'm not sure if this question will even make sense. Because I'm not a nurse,
I'm not in the program. But when you think about the clinicals and the kinds of courses that you need to
be ready for those as well as the kinds of concepts and courses that we've been talking about, about
citizen nurse. Do you see connections across those two kinds of courses or those kinds of learning?
Mykenzie 31:32
Well, yeah, I think like, every day at clinical you walk in and talk to patients that, you know, you don't
know what their struggles are, or I don't know. Just like, I think if we talked about it at the same time as
clinicals, like we would be able to just look at it differently instead of like, just here for the medical stuff
like we would be looking more holistically at the patient. I don't know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 32:12
Anything else that you want to add for the good of the order?
Mykenzie 32:16
I don't think so.
- 10 -
Show less
Oral History with Michelle Palmborg
4/11/2022 • 41:08
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, feel, nursing, community, disparities, learning, concepts, role, gave, patient,
experience, Maxfield, years, hospital, pandemic, kids, question, family nurse practitioner, wanted
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenba... Show more
Oral History with Michelle Palmborg
4/11/2022 • 41:08
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, feel, nursing, community, disparities, learning, concepts, role, gave, patient,
experience, Maxfield, years, hospital, pandemic, kids, question, family nurse practitioner, wanted
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Michelle Palmborg
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:06
Thank you, Michelle, for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My
name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work
at Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Michelle Palmborg 00:30
Yeah. Hi, my name is Michelle Palmborg. I'm a registered nurse by trade. And I am an Assistant
Professor of Nursing at Metropolitan State University.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:43
Great. And before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and
having that interview, a recording of that interview stored at Augsburg University, which could be made
available to the public.
Michelle Palmborg 00:56
That's fine.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:57
Okay, great. All right. To start out, can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and
what you studied at Augsburg?
Michelle Palmborg 01:08
Yeah, so I kind of have gone about my higher education in a very long, drawn-out way. I started straight
from high school going into an ADN (Associate Degree in Nursing), that is an associate degree in
nursing. And I went to St. Catherine University for that at their Minneapolis College. After obtaining my
ADN, I went on for my RN to BSN. So an undergraduate completion degree, actually here at Metro
State. And then from there, I went on to get my MAN, so a Master's in Arts of Nursing at Augsburg, and
then a DNP degree, so a doctorate in nursing practice degree. And I completed thaton May 3 of 2019.
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Elaine Eschenbacher 02:13
Before you came to Augsburg, so you were already a nurse, how did you view yourself as a nurse with
regard to being engaged in community or creating change in institutions.
Michelle Palmborg 02:27
So most of my nursing career was at St. Joseph's Hospital, which is downtown St. Paul. Recently, they
shut the doors to bedside nursing care. And so I'm currently at the U of M. But I felt like my most of my
time at St. Joe's also was in the emergency department. And our emergency department is directly
across the street from Higher Ground and the Dorothy Day Center downtown. And so I really felt as
though being in the ER, you really got to see the community, work with the community, collaborate with
the community, because not everybody gets admitted into the hospital. So I would say the majority of
the patients that we saw in the emergency department actually were not admitted into the hospital. And
previous to being in the ER, I worked in what we call the float pool. So I floated all over the hospital. I
was only seeing those select few patients that met the requirements for admission. And so, again,
going back to my work in the emergency department, I really felt like I actually got to collaborate and
work with the community and have a better grasp on the different disparities that were going on in that
downtown St. Paul community, as well as just kind of the makeup of the community as well. I think that
answered your question.
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:11
Yeah. Thanks. Since studying at Augsburg, has your view of the role of a nurse changed? And if so,
how?
Michelle Palmborg 04:26
Yeah, I would definitely say so. So prior to going to Augsburg, you know, I always wanted to be a
nurse. I wanted to be a nurse in high school. I also wanted to be a cosmetologist. And so I explored that
I didn't mention that but I actually explored that at Aveda before going into nursing. Because I don't
know I think I had an impostor syndrome about becoming a nurse. But I really looked at nursing prior to
Augsburg and I still have some of this belief that nursing is truly a calling, you know, you're working
hands-on with the community, and there's a lot of healing involved. And I still think that's very true. But I
think going to Augsburg, really opened my eyes specifically on this concept of the citizen nurse. And
just the capacity and the power that nurses have when it comes to public policy. And getting involved
and actually being involved in creating change, if you will. Where prior to Augsburg, I kind of looked at
my role as okay, this is what I'm doing when I clock into when I clock out, and then I take that hat off
and go home. And I just do my hospital work, I was really focused on, you know, the tasks that were
assigned to me at the bedside, versus really kind of looking at the broader scope of how nurses really
can get involved in change, if that makes sense.
Elaine Eschenbacher 06:04
Yeah, I'm curious, what made you want to be a nurse?
Michelle Palmborg 06:08
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Ah, it's personal. And some I won't go into, you know, extreme detail. But I dealt with a mother who was
sick for most of my life. And the type of disease, if you will, as she was dealing with, I think, is one that
has a lot of negativity attached to it. And so for myself, I really wanted to go into the role of becoming a
nurse to have a different perspective of that community, as well as just be a part of taking care and
healing. It's something that I was passionate about, you know, taking care of my mother growing up, as
well as my family was very involved when I was in elementary, middle school, high school and giving
back to the community. And we would spend our Christmases every year downtown Minneapolis,
volunteering with Harbor Lights, Salvation Army. And I just remember growing up, it was something we
always did with our cousins, and it just brought all of us so much joy to give back to the community. And
so it's just it's always been something like, okay, how can I give back? I really enjoy taking care of
people, what type of career can I do that, and I have some doctors in my family, I have an uncle who's
an orthopedic surgeon and another uncle who's a radiologist. And growing up, I would see how busy
they are and were never really around, always in the hospital. So I knew that I didn't want to become a
physician, but I knew I wanted to be involved in medicine. And so what really sealed the deal for me,
outside of the two things I had already explained with my mom, and then our family involvement in the
community was I was a teen mom, myself, and I had a midwife with my oldest daughter, and her name
was Michelle as well. And she was so kind and so patient. And so just, she had such a loving presence.
And I never felt like she judged me for being a teen mom. And she knew that I wanted to become a
nurse. And she would just say the kindness things to motivate me to keep me on track to let me know
that even though you're having a child at such a young age, this doesn't have to be a negative thing.
And so I would say she really kind of, you know, gave me that push that, yes, I can do this, and I can
write my own story. So I would say all three of those things are really what brought me to applying to
the nursing program at St. Kate's.
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:25
Awesome. Thank you. You kind of started to allude to this next question in one of your previous
answers, but thinking back on your courses at Augsburg, were the concepts of the citizen professional
or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills discussed in your classes, and if so, which ones do you
remember?
Michelle Palmborg 09:47
Absolutely. feel like that was just a common thread throughout the entire program. Specific course
numbers, now that I've been in higher ed, I can't remember the specific courses. I will say that I taught
as an adjunct for some years at Augsburg for the 541 which is the Politics in Healthcare. So that
concept is definitely woven. Throughout that course. I did work with Dennis Donovan at Maxfield
Elementary and that really that experience I feel like really gave me, it just really opened my eyes to
how much bigger nursing is outside of hospital bedside nursing, and how we can really use our power
and our agency to get involved in so many different areas. And I forget what specific class that was that
I took where I was working with him. But just that experience of working with the kids at Maxfield
Elementary from the lens of being a registered nurse was very profound.
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:22
Can you tell me about which experiences you had in the classroom or in your coursework that really
helped you gain an understanding of the role of citizen professional or citizen nurse and a little bit more
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on how. So if you wanted to talk about the your experience at Maxfield that would be great. Or maybe
there's other experiences that really kind of brought it home for you?
Michelle Palmborg 11:43
Yeah, I thought, you know, Maxfield was a big one. So that's a local elementary school here in the Twin
Cities that, I don't know what the statistics are now, but if I remember correctly, five years ago, like 99%
of the children who went to that school were on free or reduced lunch. Due to a lack of funding, there
wasn't a ton of after school activities. These kids were, you know, a lot of them coming from the
homeless shelter, dealing with you know, housing insecurity, all of that. And it really opened my eyes as
to the role that a school nurse can play. When it comes to I mean, obviously, you know, treating
childhood diseases like type one diabetes, what have you, but outside of that, just kind of the overlap
nursing plays with social work, and how, you know, just the beauty of listening to these kids, meeting
them where they're at, and really kind of taking, you know, one of the concepts that I really love have
the citizen nurses de-emphasizing the expert role. And I feel like we've really got to do that at Maxfield
Elementary because, you know, you could come in as a nurse and be like, what are we doing, these
kids aren't eating, there's too many kids in the classroom, no one's paying attention. You're not going to
get anywhere with that mentality. And I feel like learning about the different concepts of the citizen
nurse model and applying that to my experience at Maxfield really allowed myself to be able to get on
the kids level. And just, you know, I had my own personal experience that may have been similar to
some of the kids who you know, attended Maxfield Elementary, but just really kind of seeing how, you
know, all of the social determinants outside of being a student really impacted their experience at
school and how not having breakfast in the morning, you know, how can you pay attention to your
math? How can you pay attention to what your teacher's saying, just the level of anxiety and overwhelm
and just by having that presence, of having, you know, us as students there to kind of break up the kids
and work in smaller groups with them on something that was important to them. So the projects were
giving these kids agency to choose something in their community that they really wanted to see
change. And I feel like and I have teenagers, myself, that a lot of schools don't do that. A lot of schools
are like, this is what you need to do. If you don't do what I say you need to do, you're in trouble. And I
feel like this experience we were really giving the agency to the kids and you can see these kids just
light up and get so excited because it was something that they wanted to do, a change that they want
wanted to see that would not only impact them, but their community. And it was it was a really great
experience.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:14
Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare institutions because of your
educational experience at Augsburg?
Michelle Palmborg 15:23
Absolutely, I feel like my educational experience at Augsburg really opened my eyes on things that I
had experienced as a multiracial woman, but I didn't necessarily have the words for it, because I was
just, you know, if you've been racialized in America, your whole life, it's just something you're used to.
And I feel like Augsburg really gave me the tools to look deeper, do the root cause analysis have a
better understanding of the systemic issues that we have in society, systemic racism, institutional
racism, to better understand, you know, bias, unconscious bias, and I feel like that has really opened up
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the doors for myself, in the sense of being able to, you know, at the bedside at the U of M, or here, you
know, in my role as an assistant professor to really be able to understand the different systems, how
they work together, how they perpetuate, you know, negative or positive outcomes in the community.
But really, I feel like, I have the tools to try and work to dismantle some of these systems. Obviously, I
can't by myself, it takes a collective, but I really feel like Augsburg gave me the toolkit that I need to
have the lens on just how a lot of these systems work, because I think, as nurses, you can either be a
doer, and you're just very task oriented, which is kind of what I was explaining, prior to my experience
at Augsburg and that was my lens of being a nurse and I see so many nurses who they're like this, you
know, I come here from seven to three, and then I go home, and then I take my Augsburg experience,
and it's like, okay, so why is this patient here for the fifth time this month? How can we get to the root
cause of you know, what's going on here versus having an attitude like, "Oh, they're back again." So
just little things where I've seen it, impact my outlook, my understanding, awareness, I really feel like
Augsburg gave me those tools. And you know, I spoke about Maxfield, but we also went to Sylvan Lake
and were a part of a wonderful ceremony of renaming this really sacred peak and renaming it so that it
was back to the original Lakota name versus, you know, what it had been named by colonizers, if you
will. And there are many experiences going out to the Amish community, and it was something I was so
terrified to do. Because I don't look like anybody in the Amish community. But it really opened my eyes
to the level of prejudice that that community deals with. And I don't know, I'm kind of rambling here, but
I just really feel like Augsburg gave me the tools to kind of look deeper, if you will, at systems,
institutions, just kind of how politics works.
Elaine Eschenbacher 19:09
So thinking back on your education at Augsburg, what could have helped you better understand the
civic skills and the concepts we've highlighted in this interview, and which concepts or issues were
most challenging to grasp?
Michelle Palmborg 19:24
So this is something that I've thought about actually a lot, especially in my role as an assistant
professor, and right now I'm only teaching in our doctoral programs here at Metro. And Metro has a
very different approach in their doctoral programs, and I'm not going to say one is better than the other.
But one thing that I definitely think, and this was feedback that was given by multiple students of my
graduating class, is I think, specifically in nursing on the leadership track, I think there would have been
benefit to having more in depth courses on leadership, courses on research. Because a lot of the things
that I'm doing in my role right now I see my peers come in from, you know, the UofM, maybe they
graduated from here. And they come in knowing how to create a Gantt chart, they come in knowing
how to write a grant proposal, how to, you know, analyze data, or what have you things that, you know,
maybe aren't the funnest to do, but they're definitely a part of your role as a professor. And I think we
could have definitely learned more about that in a leadership program. Yeah, so more courses around
leadership. I don't want to say business management, but, um, I think because you know, that there
can be some overlap with that when you say leadership, but also research. I understand, you know,
Augsburg. It's not an R1 school, like the UofM. However, you know, when you're graduating nurse
practitioners, and you're graduating people with doctors in leadership, they should know how to do
something as simple as write a grant proposal or how to analyze research. And that was not a skill that
was taught, unfortunately, at Augsburg.
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Elaine Eschenbacher 21:45
Yeah, I mean, the way I'm hearing it, tell me if this is right, is kind of like those are some of the
implementation tools for putting these concepts into practice.
Michelle Palmborg 21:53
Exactly. So there was a definitely a gap, I think there.
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:01
Thinking about the conceptual side, the civic skills, civic engagement, citizen nurse, were there any of
those particular concepts that were difficult to grasp or didn't quite land for you?
Michelle Palmborg 22:13
No. Okay. I would say if anything, it just felt right. It felt like okay, we should have learned this and
undergraduate nursing. How are we? Because so many nurses don't go on to get graduate degrees,
they stop at the undergraduate level, they just wanted to become a nurse. And why are we waiting?
And that was one thing I felt a lot at Augsburg is, why am I just now learning about this? Why are we
not teaching this to our undergraduate students? Who are really the ones who are going out here and
providing hands on care to the community? So no, it felt right. It felt awesome to learn. I just I definitely
had that overwhelming feeling, especially in my master's program at Augsburg of why am I just not
learning this? Why my just now learning about institutionalized racism? When it's embedded in every
framework of medicine, I should have learned that in my undergraduate degree.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:22
Did any of these course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice or your
understanding of the profession of nursing?
Michelle Palmborg 23:32
Absolutely. So interestingly, I originally after my master's, was accepted to the DNP FNP program, my
plan was to become a family nurse practitioner. I completed a year that program almost at a 4.0, I was
to the point where I was partnered with another nurse practitioner to do my year of practicum. And then
I'd be done. I was miserable in that program. And I didn't know why I cried every day. And then I was
talking to a really close friend of mine who was like, I just need you to be intentional and meditate and
pray about this. And I realized that I actually did not want to become a family nurse practitioner. I really,
because I, no shade or disrespect to you know, providers, but I did not see that being the way I wanted
to be a part of change. And I had already had my feet wet in education, teaching as an adjunct. And it
really pushed me into going to the other track the leadership track in the DNP program to going in
education. And I'm unbelievably thankful for making that choice. But I don't think I would have gotten
there had it not been for some of these concepts that we were learning and actually having a really
deep, long conversation with Dr. Katie Clark on one of our practicums about, you know, just which
career path and she was like, I think you should switch tracks and go into leadership track. And it's like
when you're so involved in a pre-licensure program hearing that sounds like your, it seems like defeat.
I'm giving up, what am I doing? And I think I realized that for myself, it was more ego, I wanted that
white coat to say, look, I made it I came out of all of this adversity, and look, I have my white coat, and
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then doing some self reflection. Especially on what we were learning at the time, I realized, you know,
the way that I want to be a part of change is actually in education. So I'm very thankful for, you know,
the concepts of the citizen nurse. And a lot of the frameworks that were taught in the program because
it really opened my eyes.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:04
Yeah. Wow. Sounds like like vocational reckoning.
Michelle Palmborg 26:10
I call it my midlife crisis. And I was like 20 years old at the time. It felt like a crisis because you know,
you put your all into a pre-licensure program. I'm not saying you don't in a non-pre-licensure program
but you're studying eight hours a day, you're living in your books. And so it did kind of feel like a defeat
and then I just went with what felt right and I'm so thankful.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:47
Which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning.
Michelle Palmborg 27:00
Definitely my experience with Dennis Donovan at Maxfield. I really enjoyed my experience with the
Amish community, which was of course that Dr. Cheryl Luening taught I don't remember the actual
course name. Um, and then the politics and health care course really was powerful because I didn't
realize how much power nurses have when it comes to legislation and policy.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:43
Based on what you've told me about Christmases when you were little, it sounds like you're an
engaged, involved in community kind of person that sounds like it's part of who you are. It also sounds
like self reflection is kind of a part of your practice. And it sounds like your program at Augsburg fit well
with those. I'm going off script now, this is my own question. So what do you attribute to Augsburg and
what is is you and maybe it doesn't help to distinguish those, but I'm just curious if you have a thought
on that.
Michelle Palmborg 28:21
I would attribute Augsburg to, I feel like I've always been a self reflective person. I grew up, I had to
grow up really early, just given some of my life experiences. But I didn't have the tools on how to put my
thoughts into action or what my thoughts meant, or how to put my passions into action. I always kind of
had this overwhelming feeling as a child of like, I want to save the world, but how do I do it? And I kinda
would get down, not like depressed or anything but you know, after my experiences around Christmas
with family giving back at Harbor Lights, and I would find myself just really sad. Why is this happening?
Why is the world like this? How could this be? How can kids actually go to bed hungry at night? And I
feel like Augsburg gave me the tools to like better understand again, these systems, how they work. At
what level can I get involved? What is meaningful? So I feel like Augsburg really just kind of gave me
the tools to put like, all of my childhood wants and thoughts into actual action, if that makes sense.
Because I feel like prior to Augsburg I had this thought of okay, well, I'm a nurse so I'm giving back and
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although I think there's a lot of truth to that, a lot of truth to that. There was still something missing. It
was like when I would clock out of work Okay, now what now my like now what what am I doing now for
the community? And so then I would constantly while you work in the ER, you're giving a ton. And I'm
not saying that nurses who do that are not, they are giving a ton. But for myself, it just didn't feel like
enough. And so I feel like Augsburg really gave me the tools to put those feelings of this isn't enough
what's next, into action?
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:45
So here's a big question. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Michelle Palmborg 30:54
Oh, I think I am an outlier here. My response may ruffle feathers. It has not changed a ton. I feel like as
a nurse, we've always cared for really sick people. I've always felt like it's my duty to care for sick
people, no matter what the disease virus, bacteria, whatever it is. I feel like the pandemic has really
shed light to the disparities between, I shouldn't say disparities, I feel like the pandemic has really shed
light to the discrepancies between nurses and administration. When it comes to short staffing patient
ratios just because the system has been so overwhelmed. But my role as a nurse, I don't feel like has
changed. I have to wear more PPE with certain situations. But I just really feel like we've always cared
for sick people. I think the pandemic has different definitely highlighted the disparities in and around
health care specifically when it comes to our historically marginalized communities. When it comes to
trust, health literacy, what have you. But when I think about my role as a nurse, when I go into the
hospital outside of having to wear more equipment, I'm still caring for a patient, I'm still looking at them,
you know, through a holistic lens, you know, I still have my tasks, I still have to abide by physician
orders. And I think part of the reason why I feel like it hasn't changed a lot is my experience in the
emergency department. When you work in the emergency department specifically when you work at an
ER like I did for so many years where you walk into work, and you are right outside of the largest
homeless shelter in the State of Minnesota. And you see, you know, the disparities right in front of your
face every single time and I work 12 hour shifts and that ER. I feel like the disparities, they've always
been there. And so for me, it hasn't really exaggerated those disparities because I've seen them for
years, but I think for the general population, and you know, data collectors, if you will, they're like, oh,
this disparities have been so much greater for historically marginalized communities. And it's like,
they've always been this way. And this goes back, you know, four hundred years ago. So, I don't know.
I personally can't. It's been challenging as a nurse because I feel like the pandemic has also brought
out a lot of misinformation. And like no other. I never remember prior to the pandemic, people, you
know, questioning what's inside of a vaccine or thinking that you know, it's all a hoax or, you know,
those type of, in my opinion, crazy thoughts. You know, you had misinformation around, "Oh, does the
flu vaccine caused autism" or the MMR and, you know, I feel like that was like a small population and it
was always there, but I just feel like the pandemic has brought about like, all of a sudden, everybody
has a science degree, I guess. And everybody has an opinion on science. So that's been wild. And
that's been really actually noxious as a nurse, and not just when I clock in just everywhere, you know.
But my actual job as a nurse, I don't know if I can say I just feel like, yeah, I don't know. I can't say that
the disparities that I've seen specifically amongst marginalized communities are worse with COVID
than they are with pain management. Or with they are with our, you know, maltreatment with patients
who have sickle cell, or who don't speak English, or, you know. I can't go to bed and sleep at night
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saying it's worse, I think we still do a horrible job with treating patients for pain, who are black or Latino,
or Native American. We still have horrific outcomes when it comes to maternal and infant mortality rates
amongst black, Latino and indigenous populations. You know, did COVID exaggerate that? I don't
know. It's always been there. That's my opinion about that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 36:22
Thank you. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare?
Michelle Palmborg 36:33
Hmm. So that's a hard question. I feel like as a bedside nurse, no, I feel like administration really has a
hold on that. And a lot of administrators are not physicians or nurses, they don't actually have the
medical background. They have the business background, but not the medical background. So as far
as you know, decision making, and I work at the U of M. So it's a very, it's a teaching hospital. I
definitely feel like I have a voice but decision making, I would say that's definitely more administration.
Higher ed, I definitely feel like I have a voice here at Metro. But it's, you know, I think anybody who
works in higher ed knows that changes really slow. Painfully slow. So I do feel like I have a voice. I do
feel like, my voice is, you know, heard and respected and valued here at Metro State. I can't say felt
that way at other places that I've worked. I definitely felt that way as an adjunct at Augsburg, so that
was great. But I think that's the big overarching issue with health care. Is that nurses, physicians,
providers, what have you, we aren't often at that decision making table. Health care is dictated by
health insurance, income, it's a class system. And so I think that is the big issue. It's, you know,
pharmaceutical companies. So I can't say I feel like I have a voice at that decision making table
because it's so much bigger than that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 38:46
That's the end of my prepared questions. Is there anything else you'd like to share that I didn't ask?
Michelle Palmborg 38:51
No, you know, I just, I am forever grateful for my experience at Augsburg. I think Augsburg is very
special. It's very near and dear to my heart. I learned so much. I went through a lot of transition when I
was at that university. I felt very valued. I loved my professors. They're so wonderful. I love the
experience. I love coming on to campus and feeling like this really is a campus for the people. This
really is a campus where the folks who go here look like the rest of the community. It didn't feel like this
elite space where only certain people get in it just felt like this is a community campus. I have really
nothing negative ever to say about Augsburg. It was just so beautiful and my family they all came up
here We're from the San Francisco Bay Area. And my family, they all came up here for my graduation.
And I think a lot of people who don't know Minnesota think it's just a state full of, you know, cows and
farms, at least my family does. And so I just remember my family saying over and over again. "I feel like
this is a graduation ceremony in Oakland." Like it is so diverse, you know, the speakers, the dances,
the singing the, it just, it's a beautiful place. It's a beautiful campus. And I feel like it's an institution that
really sticks to their mission, vision and values and they really walk the walk with the community, or
however you say that. It was great.
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Show less
Oral History with Megan Staffen (2022)
4/4/2022 • 36:48
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, patient, feel, community, citizen, learning, trauma, experiences, nursing, healthcare,
nurse practitioner, question, pandemic, doctorate, role, civic, define, understand, family nurse
practitioner
SPEA... Show more
Oral History with Megan Staffen (2022)
4/4/2022 • 36:48
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, patient, feel, community, citizen, learning, trauma, experiences, nursing, healthcare,
nurse practitioner, question, pandemic, doctorate, role, civic, define, understand, family nurse
practitioner
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Megan Staffen
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:12
Megan, thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My
name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work
at Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Megan Staffen 00:34
Yes, my name is Megan Staffen. I am a doctorate graduate from Augsburg in my family nurse
practitioner degree, currently working at MinuteClinic. And then also a self employed physician as well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:48
Great. Before we continue, I just would like to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed and
having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University where it might be made available to the public.
Megan Staffen 01:01
Yes, I consent.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:02
Great, thank you. Um, we're gonna start out with a little bit about your education background. So tell us
a little bit about your background with regard to education and what you studied at Augsburg.
Megan Staffen 01:14
Sure, so the first couple years started more with like a cultural based approach in healthcare, which I
really enjoyed me, I got to travel to Mexico and then Guatemala. So it was a wonderful experience to
learn from the different cultures there about their healing modalities, and just their overall culture. So I
love the transcultural approach and incorporating that into my everyday healthcare style as well, so
that's really been helpful. And then the last two years were more like didactic clinical specific scientific
approach to medicine.
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Elaine Eschenbacher 02:12
And tell me a little bit about your education before you came to Augsburg.
Megan Staffen 02:16
I grew up in a small town, um, got my, you know, my GED, so I then progressed up to University of
Minnesota Duluth, kind of not knowing what I wanted to do. So I went up there thinking I want to do
pharmacy. And then I chose a different path of teaching. And then I did some volunteering, because I'm
just like, I still am kind of confused as to what I want to do. And I ended up loving working in the
healthcare system. I volunteered at the Children's Hospital up at St. Mary's Duluth. And I chose to do
nursing. I graduated with my Spanish degree at Duluth, and then did a accelerated online nursing
program through University of Wisconsin Oshkosh. So it was just a one year program, which was great
to kind of was able to push me out into the work environmental faster.
Elaine Eschenbacher 03:40
So before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse with regard to being engaged in
community or being able to create change within institutions?
Megan Staffen 03:52
Um, honestly, I applied to Augsburg because I felt that I was missing that component. I had kind of
some life changing events that led up to I worked night shift in an ICU, I was burnt out, I was
depressed. I had the most mental health problems I've ever had in my life. So I just needed a change.
And I felt like I wasn't doing the different making a difference that I wanted to with my career where I
was at. And once I got to Augsburg, it really, I've never felt more in the right place at the right time. I
think the community approach is something that's not emphasized enough at all in medicine and I have
actually taken my practice to help with that. I just took a position that's running out of Lake St. Which
has gone through and endured a lot of community issues and trauma, lots of trauma from that area. So
I just feel connected, and I live in the area. So I feel like I know kind of what's going on, but not even
grazing the surface. And I feel that I didn't have that perspective, per se, prior to starting in my program
of Augsburg and I didn't, I feel like that was lacking in my nursing prior to going to Augsburg.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:21
Can you give a little snapshot of what work you're doing connected to Lake Street or in the area?
Megan Staffen 05:27
Yeah, so I am working at just the small, just like in and out clinic kind of same day scheduling and, but
more so we're trying to, you know, that clinic was actually burned down. And then now we're kind of
bringing it up, I guess, you know, as from the ashes of starting all over again, and how do we bring in
patients, but not only that, but help heal with trauma that these patients are going through and try to be
open and understanding and accommodating in medicine, to the way that their needs are met. So that's
been a challenge to you know, we feel like we're, you know, and COVID has obviously been a
challenge with getting that, as well. So just trying to accommodate, and we're trying to grow this
practice to having more testing capabilities that kind of envelopes what the community needs are and
trying to collaborate with Planned Parenthood right next door, how can we collaborate with them and
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meet the needs that their patients maybe not aren't getting at Planned Parenthood, but maybe we could
accommodate at our clinic? So just little things like that starting out small.
Elaine Eschenbacher 06:52
You've touched on some of this, but I'm gonna just read the question as it is, anyway, how has your
view of the role of a nurse changed since being at Augsburg? Or has it changed? And if so how?
Megan Staffen 07:14
So I actually did my doctorate on kind of focusing on the citizen professional, so I don't that has like a
little bias to your questions, since I already kind of know. So, I think when I go out into the community, I
feel like the role of the nurse is not defined very well, I feel, you know, and I'm in communication with a
mentor that I met through a conference who was out in Washington, DC, and actually, she's working up
with working with higher levels of like, the American Association of nurse practitioners. And they're
trying to actually define the roles and are a little better because it's, especially the nurse practitioner, I
feel like patients are just confused, and they don't understand who we are, what we do, or how to
differentiate. So that's really been an eye opening like something so basic, is we're not defining
ourselves maybe the best. So and that's something I'm still trying to learn, like, how do I define my role?
What do I want to be? And it kind of all scatters down from the definition of a nurse, there's so many
different levels and spaces that you can kind of fit yourself into in the definition. So it's kind of hard. I
definitely think the role that I have has shifted, since being at Augsburg. I feel like I wish I would have,
you know, could have would have should have done more of like a public health approach. Looking
back on it, maybe you started off with like my master's there and then gone into the doctorate family
nurse practitioner, I wouldn't change doing that. I just wish, you know, they definitely shed light on the
importance of public health. And then COVID hit and I just realized how awful is lacking and how little
respect that we have when really it's like life altering and life changing for humans overall, to have that
component in our healthcare system. So I think that's the biggest feature.
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:33
So were the concepts of citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed
in your classes? If so, which ones do you remember?
Megan Staffen 09:47
Yeah, I think the citizen nurse stands out the most. I know the civic skills, kind of our duties within the
community and kind of the role that we would like to play and I think it was it seven of them are, if I
remember correctly that we had to do. The citizen nurse stands out a lot, because that was definitely in
my doctorate project was how do you become this person,that's not only, you know, working as like the
nurse, but also you're trying to be a part of the community and meet those needs first. And, yeah, I
think that was a huge component of my, my project was it definitely dealt with Latina dating violence.
So how can I, as a citizen nurse, become a part of like, learning from them to that I feel like adolescents
just their voices aren't heard, we just kind of tell them what to do as a provider, whereas a citizen nurse
would take what they have to say, maybe pay them to like present or give them incentives to give their
perspectives and see where we're lacking in the care that we provide them, because they are the ones
that hold the knowledge and their age group. And there's a disconnect in generational differences. So I
think playing a role of like getting people's voices heard to change, and that's kind of what we're trying
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to do at my clinic is how, what are the what's the patient population? Who can we accommodate the
best? So yeah, I think citizen nurse definitely stands out the most for me.
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:32
You talked about how defining these roles is really difficult if you were pressed to try to define it, like,
what would you say? How would you describe it to somebody who doesn't have familiarity with these
concepts.
Megan Staffen 11:52
For the citizen nurse, I would say that we're looking to seek the knowledge from our community and not
to tell the community what to do. That was a huge, huge part of going to Guatemala and Mexico was
learning from the community, especially the women, gosh, they're so powerful. So learning from them,
and that and not going in and trying to take over, especially with trauma, there's so much trauma,
where we are and I think going in and telling people what to do is just not gonna help unite forces and
creates some form of equity in healthcare. So that's kind of where I think I would define a citizen nurses
is you're seeking out important players of the community that kind of already know what the trauma is,
and know the direction and the goals that are trying to be met. And then how do you apply those I think
civic skills could maybe always be an ever changing as to what's first and what's most important. So
those are a little harder to to define, I guess. Like, I can't really remember to be honest, I'm a bad
student.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:09
So you also talked about defining for for patients and others what a nurse practitioner is, how would you
describe what a nurse practitioner does?
Megan Staffen 13:22
I think the biggest difference would be diagnosing and then prescribing, I mean, that's a huge part of
what we do. So, but we also have capability, especially in your with your doctorate is to do research,
and I think that's lacking as well, at a community civic skills level. So I think that's kind of the you know,
standout differences, I guess, between the going from the nurses, the nurse practitioners diagnosing,
prescribing and then or treating and then research. Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside
or outside of healthcare institutions as a result of your education experience at Augsburg? So, yes, I do.
I think, coming out of school, like right away, no, I think you're kind of listening and learning right away,
but I feel like I was more confident in knowing how to approach people with the right wording, because
the way we say things is so important and maybe conducting myself with a little more not compassion,
but consideration to the words that come out of my mouth. And just knowing how to say things that
make you not only more approachable but more engaged and you know, inspiring to the community.
Connection, making that connection.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:19
So thinking back on your educational experiences at Augsburg, can you tell me which experiences or
pedagogical practices in the classroom or in your coursework, helped you gain an understanding of the
role of the citizen professional or citizen nurse?
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Megan Staffen 15:35
I've kind of spoken a couple, especially the traveling to Mexico and Guatemala. But then the other
component was Making Room at the Table, probably hands down my favorite class at Augsburg and
actually going out into the community and just really diving in and seeing what ...there's so much I didn't
even know about my own community that was like, shed a light on multiple resources that I can use
now. Like Breaking Free, the cultural center, that's just right down the street from my house those
resources for patients. I also now know of like a predominantly Spanish speaking clinic, that's just the
Southside Community Center over here, I didn't know about that before. I also got to meet Dennis
Donovan, and he just is amazing. And he helped me with my doctorate project so much. And, you
know, I actually went and spoke at one of his classes to kind of get input from there, not all
adolescents, maybe kind of cheating there, some of them are 18, 19. But at least getting input from
invoices from younger generation about my project where it's not so much, just me, and that was me
going in and actually being the citizen nurse. So in playing that role, so it's kind of fun to actually not
only learn about what the role means in that class, but also kind of developing into one as well and
seeing how that looks and plays out.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:35
Nice. Sounds like that also brought in the kind of research aspect of it.
Megan Staffen 17:39
Yeah, that helped me figure out what I wanted to do.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:46
So also thinking back on your your coursework at Augsburg, what could have helped you better
understand the civic skills or the other concepts that we've talked about in this interview? And what
concepts or issues were most challenging to understand? I recognize that some of these experiences
are four years old for you now.
Megan Staffen 18:44
So I partake in a kind of a community trauma healing organization called CHIP, they are through
Hennepin County. And I've noticed that they you know, they're at the top of their game with trauma
informed care, and I kind of just sit and listen, it's definitely a lot of huge leaders in the community that
present and talking and trying to figure out grants funding all that for different areas of need in
Minneapolis specifically. So I've definitely gained a better understanding through doing that. And I think
that's because they're bringing in these leaders from these small little places that you would never know
about. And for example, Raices Sagradas, they have this woman and she's in charge of it and she was
trying to get a grant for them it and I just think hearing them speak and represent these populations was
really definitely gave you a better understanding what civic skills means to to them and where their
passions and everything lie. Which I know we did that, you know, we went out and did that with like
Breaking Free and learned from people and their experiences which but I think almost just getting into
like more of like the leadership. I think Katie had brought in a leader, I can't remember her name now,
someone higher up in the like health of Minneapolis, but more of that would help kind of understand
and more. But she did a good job at honestly, I think it really immersed us but the immersion aspect
was the best I guess if there could be more immersion, I know COVID is kind of limiting for that. But
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more immersion is what would really help and more ideas as to what the different levels of civic skills
are and where maybe the community stands, and what's the importance of them and which one's more
important right now. Because sometimes it's hard to do all of them and kind of like a prioritization of the
civic skills or something like that to kind of better understand and your community might be helpful.
Honestly, yes, it was four years ago, I can't really remember which concepts or skills are most
challenging.
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:25
It's interesting, though, it sounds like in some of your courses, you got a taste of these things. And
you've continued your own learning in your own context.
Megan Staffen 21:33
Yeah, it definitely has motivated me to keep wanting to keep up to date.
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:43
Have any of the course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice or
understanding of the profession of nursing? And are they applicable to your current practice? Do you
use them and if you have a story to illustrate that we'd love to hear the story.
Megan Staffen 22:18
I do have a story from a patient actually. You know, you kind of get so wound up in like, Oh, we got to
test we got to treat, we got to do this. And then you're like, okay, you can leave and but I noticed the
context of how my patient was speaking, and I was running behind. So first I kind of, you know, went
through just everything. And I noticed that the patient was using, like, saying, they them about their
partner. And so finally, I just, like, stopped. And I was like, So what pronouns do you use, and they got
elated as to like me actually asking, and then I sat down with this patient, and I showed them that epic
has a whole tool now where we can, like, I can put it documented in there with their permission, if they
would like me to know and warn, not warn, but tell other providers that this patient prefers that they
them pronouns, and recognizes as non-binary. And I mean, this patient was just absolutely, they were
elated that I, you know, did that and that I felt a big connection. And that's when you feel like you really
made a difference. And you feel, I feel like that's when you really feel like you're the citizen nurse
because you're actually letting this patient guide their care. And, of course, they were excited that I
gave them treatment for feeling bad, too. But I feel the biggest component that affected the patient was
me, asking them and then turning the computer and let them guide their own care and click what they
wanted to click and see that I'm not just, you know, taking over their health records and not letting them
have any say as to who they are and how they want their health care played out.
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:12
So they felt seen and you gave them the opportunity to have agency. it sounds like.
Megan Staffen 24:18
Yes, correct.
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:19
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So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
Megan Staffen 24:54
I listed some but I'll just play off of my patient experience, and I'll just keep referring back to Making
Room at the Table. It's just that the community, like citizen nurse, civic skills, are just such a huge,
broad aspect of healthcare, it could almost be two parts to that course. Maybe more of like the
community engagement, but then also like, like, the trauma informed care is such a huge thing right
now that's lacking. But anyways, so my experiences I think, were that we had an LGBTQ T
representative came in, especially for at Augsburg and gave us resources, and then also talked about
different stories about you know, why you know, pronouns matter, and that you can't, it's not something
to just brush off and think that it's not important in health care, let alone in life. So it just, it was nice to
be educated on it. And I feel that even when I had my patient, I had to ask her and tell her or sorry,
them. That I was, I'm still learning. And I said, if you wouldn't mind explaining non-binary, I just want to
have some transparency. And they were, like, thrilled that I at least just am trying to learn. And I think
just having that representative come in and tell us that it was it's okay to ask questions. Sometimes you
just got to hear that. And I don't know why. But, you know, as a provider, we're always being told to,
you know, you have to tell them what, you know, that's kind of like this regimented way of, we just have
to do this, this and this, and then out the door, whereas you kind of have to have your own thoughts.
And you can always ask questions, you know, we don't know everything. And I feel like that's a big part
of being a citizen nurse, too, is being vulnerable and asking questions. So I think that was a really good
presentation to have in our class as well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:22
It kind of brings up the idea of expertise. And who is the expert?
Megan Staffen 27:26
Exactly, yes. Yeah, I'm definitely not the expert in in a lot of things, even medicine, you're constantly
learning so yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:36
And yet, the traditional training sets you up to be the expert.
Megan Staffen 27:42
Yeah, exactly. Or at least that's the mentality they want you to have, I guess, I don't know.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:52
Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't?
Megan Staffen 28:09
I guess this doesn't really have anything to citizen professional, but I feel like the didactic medical
courses could have been a little better. Especially like pathophysiology. And this could even be a thing
where it's more of a community trying to not be the experts but a collaborative approach with like the
PA program or just trying to get more involvement from different members of medicine. I don't know if
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we can even collaborate like with pharmacists, I just feel like that was lacking. And, and that's I'm not
just saying like I'm trying to say it and more of a citizen professional way that medicine we're all like
supposed to be our experts here, but why can't we be our experts with each other and learn and have
like, Making Room at the Table for different healthcare professionals. I feel like we're all so niche and
even feel that even in the clinics where our nurses in this room and nurse practitioners are over here, or
nurses sit on this side and nurse practitioners and doctors sit over here and pharmacists are over there
and we just have our own little spots and I feel like maybe bringing the citizen professional into that kind
of light and to that portion of my didactic maybe would have been a little more helpful.
Elaine Eschenbacher 29:31
So here's a big question. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Megan Staffen 29:54
A lot of ways. That's a heavy question, really heavy question. Um, I'll give you an example, the day that
I knew that this just wasn't going well. I was in the urgent care setting. And I had a patient who started
going downhill. And then all of a sudden we're coding this patient, there's not enough help. It's just me
and a nurse. Then the paramedics, and I'm doing compressions, it's like you've seen in the movie,
they're wheeling her out into the ambulance. I mean, it was just a pretty traumatic event. And I rode in
the ambulance with the patient, because they didn't have enough help you pull up to the ambulance
bay, there's like seven ambulances all pulling up at the same time. So I can see why they don't have
enough help. I mean, it just, and then they're still coming around saying that you need to see more
patients, you need to do more, we need to do this. We know we're changing EPIC, we're changing this.
And it's, it's really daunting. And I did feel supported afterwards, we did get to do like a debriefing. But I
feel like there's not enough support. That's such a traumatic thing. And then meanwhile, that same
week, George Floyd was murdered, so I had to leave town because mentally and physically, I could not
handle it. I don't even know how I made it through that week. Um, but we're expected to them are just
expected to keep going. And I think COVID shed light on that. But maybe not enough. Because now
that COVID was getting a little better. Now we're, they're just like, okay now, keep going. Now we got to
see the patients again. And it's just like, I feel like they're thinking like, some days, I'm like, oh, did
COVID even ever happen, we just lost millions of people. But yet, we're just expected to just keep
going. It's just really, it's a lot to process. And that's only just grazing the surface. I think we're short
staffed, I think people are leaving the program, the program, the nursing career. It's definitely created
problems. Nurses are kind of against each other in some ways, where there's the travel nurses who are
making hundreds of 1000s of dollars, and then actually more than I'm making as a nurse practitioner.
And then there's the nurses who have been loyal and true through the whole pandemic, and they're
making 1000s less, and I just, it's so messed up. I don't know how to fix this issue. But I just feel like
there's this high expectation and not enough help or support for nursing. The pandemic definitely shed
light on that, that we just kind of are very much taken advantage of in a lot of ways. And just expected,
which yes, it's my job to do that. I know, I had a friend who kind of said that, he said, Well, isn't that
what you signed up for? And I said, Did I sign up to be in a pandemic? Did I sign up to be short staffed?
I don't think so, when I went into this career. So yeah, it's that's a heavy question. But I think it's
definitely changed my view that I want to work more with the community to shed light on what we're
trying to do try to have transparency and who I am and what my expectations are, as well as meeting
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them at some sort of level with the patient, but I think that's going to take a long time to heal and to
mend from this.
Elaine Eschenbacher 33:44
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing
landscape of healthcare?
Megan Staffen 33:59
Sometimes yes. I think where I work, currently, it's very women led and they've definitely made a lot of
changes listening to their providers. They definitely give you a significant amount of time off for what
after having a baby more than more than other companies do. But it's sad that it has to be women led
to make those changes. So when I bring up ideas to my manager, they do listen, and they do consider
it even if it's just something small. And they do respond really, pretty diligently and I'm not waiting
weeks for a response. So I do feel heard, even if I'm not, you know, having success with it moving up
the ladder by any means. But yeah, I think for the most part where I'm at currently, I do feel heard and
they want to, they want to make this clinic thrive just as much as we do. And they want to try to, you
know, they're even recommending we, you know, collaborate with Planned Parenthood, they're trying to
figure out ways to help us as well. So I do feel like we're supported. But there's just so much on, as I
said before, so much on their plates that they have to manage that. Sometimes I feel like the like, civic
skills are kind of just at the bottom of their list, when really, that's such a huge starting point. And so
that's kind of a hard challenges. We're all just kind of got all these things that we're worried about trying
to do. So it's hard to get some stuff accomplished for that reasoning.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:42
Yeah, well, as you were describing, when I asked the pandemic question, it's really complex. And
there's a lot of competing priorities and tensions.
Megan Staffen 35:54
Exactly. Yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:57
Is there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask?
Megan Staffen 36:01
I don't think so. No, I really liked all these questions. And I love the citizen professional, I think it's
something that needs to be educated everywhere.
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Show less
Oral History with Kim Yue (2022)
3/22/2022 • 36:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, concepts, nursing, community, class, experiences, patients, change, feel, project,
hospital, DNP, engaged, advocate, civic engagement, stand, new jersey, hoping, home
SPEAKERS
Kim Yue, Elaine Eschenbacher
E... Show more
Oral History with Kim Yue (2022)
3/22/2022 • 36:13
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, concepts, nursing, community, class, experiences, patients, change, feel, project,
hospital, DNP, engaged, advocate, civic engagement, stand, new jersey, hoping, home
SPEAKERS
Kim Yue, Elaine Eschenbacher
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:00
Thank you for joining us today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering
foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is
Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work. Could
you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Kim Yue 00:43
My name is Kimberly Yue. I'm a pediatric nurse practitioner and a doctoral student here at Augsburg in
the transcultural nursing leadership program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:54
Thank you. Before we continue, I would like to confirm that you consent to be interviewed and having
that interview stored at Augsburg University, in the archives of the library, which will be made available
to the public.
Kim Yue 01:10
I consent.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:11
Thank you. Tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently studying at
Augsburg.
Kim Yue 01:23
Okay, um, I'm from New Jersey. So, my bachelor's in science in nursing is from William Paterson
University here in New Jersey. About 10 years ago, I graduated with my master's in nursing as a
pediatric nurse practitioner, from Seton Hall University, also in New Jersey. And for my doctorate, I
really wanted to kind of branch out from something that was more mainstream and cookie cutter, I
wanted something that would be more focused on culture and social justice issues. I wanted to learn to
be a better advocate for my patients, and how to just be a better, well rounded, you know, doctoral
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nurse. And I went in my project to focus on cultural issues, which was is not as accepted at all
universities.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:41
Sounds like you were seeking out the kind of exactly the kind of program that Augsburg has then. Is
that would you say that's true?
Kim Yue 02:48
I would definitely would say that's true. I would say for the past, well, for the first few years before I
entered Augsburg I had been looking at various doctoral programs, but just nothing kind of really felt
like the right fit. But when I met Dr. Miller and Dr. Schuhmacher and had an interview with them, it just
felt like I was home like I was with the people that I'm supposed to be with it, it just immediately felt
right. And I knew that this is where I should be to take my practice to where I want it to go.
Elaine Eschenbacher 03:34
Before coming to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged with
the community?
Kim Yue 03:46
Prior to coming to Augsburg, I kind of made two life changes. I was working in primary care in a very
affluent area and was very engaged with my patients and their families. They did not require a lot of
social support for me. Yet, there's always reasons to advocate for kids. Different issues. I really wanted
to kind of branch out from something that was more mainstream and cookie cutter, I wanted something
that would be more focused on culture and social justice issues. I wanted to learn to be a better
advocate for my patients, and how to just be a better, well rounded, you know, doctoral nurse. And I
went in my project to focus on cultural issues, which was is not as accepted at all universities.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:21
Um, that's a great description of the kind of different communities you've worked in and how you're
engaging, and being an advocate. What about being able to create change within a system are within
the institution? How did you see yourself as a nurse in relation to that?
Kim Yue 05:45
I'm so sorry. Can you repeat the question? You froze a little.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:49
Oh, sure. Sorry about that. Before coming to Augsburg? How did you see yourself you talked about
how you saw yourself as a nurse in terms of being engaged in the community? How did you see
yourself in terms of being able to create change within a system or within the institution.
Kim Yue
In my primary care position, I felt very unempowered to create any change. It was a private practice
owned by a single physician, and any changes that I had suggested went nowhere, unfortunately.
There were definitely things that we could have done to advocate for patients. But that, that,
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unfortunately, fell on deaf ears. Once I started at my new position, in which I've been there, about three
years now, three and a half years, very receptive to ideas and change. It is frustratingly slow, but I
guess, as all hospital systems are, but yeah, they're very open to any kind of suggestions. As soon as I
suggested anything for my doctoral project, they just jumped all over them, like I could have had, like 10
projects that would have been viable there. And I would have had support with any of them. Here, I feel
like I definitely make change. I co-chair our business resource group (BRG), which within the hospital,
it's called power, it's dedicated to social justice. So within the hospital system and within the community,
so we try to bring issues to light to the staff, to the patients, we try to affect change in that way. We
have. We have a voting webinar series. We have financial literacy series. We help out other BRGs with
any of their causes. So I definitely know that I can make a change here. Well, it sounds like as you're
describing it, it sounds like the specific context makes a big difference. But it's interesting, because you
changed contexts at about the same time that you started studying in the program at Augsburg is that
right?
Kim Yue 08:42
I was working there for about a year, and then maybe a year and a couple of months COVID hit, and of
course that really brought to light so many inequities and social concerns but when COVID hit it was a
whole other level where we went from seeing patients all day long to now I'm trying to figure out how do
I keep them home where we can watch them safely and care for them via phone. You know, just
because COVID hit doesn't mean that babies you know with congenital heart defects don't get born
anymore, they continue to get born, and so we spearheaded a program where we we got scales and
batteries and thermometers and all sorts of supplies and shipped them directly to their home so that
they could care for their babies and we could get the data from them. Because the insurance
companies don't cover any of that. But they can't have a newborn at home with congenital heart
disease, where we don't know how much are they gaining every day? How much weight have they
gained? Have they lost any weight? So we were able to do that it just really brought to light so many, so
many issues. So COVID hit our area in March, and by September I was I was at Augsburg.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:26
Wow. Since being at Augsburg, how has your view of your role as a nurse changed? Or has it
changed? And if so how?
Kim Yue 10:57
I definitely did not think of nurses as large scale advocates for general populations, I definitely was
always on an individual basis, one to one with my patients, (being) fierce advocates for whatever they
needed. But to think more globally, that nurses could really affect change, for large populations or for
you know, the community at large. I did not see that role as much as I do now.
Elaine Eschenbacher 11:39
Could you describe a little bit about what you experienced at Augsburg that made you see that
differently?
Kim Yue 11:48
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I mean, just every class that we've taken has really been such an eye opening experience into just
society, into politics into socio-economic issues. Everything through a transcultural lens, a social justice
lens, and emancipatory nurse lens. To hear about it emancipatory nursing was just kind of like, where
have these rockstars been all my life? Like, these are my people! Where have they been? We don't
really talk about them enough. Like, this is a thing, but they're very hidden away. And I think I think it's
amazing that the nurses are out there advocating for social justice change and for change, you know, in
communities and society. Because people need to listen to us we have we have a holistic view of
people's lives, not just their health, but every every part of their life.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:10
It sounds like, even if those ideas were kind of new to you being exposed to them in the Augsburg
program, you resonated with them really quickly.
Kim Yue 13:24
Absolutely, I can't tell you how many times I've read in a book. I'm like, that's what I've been saying all
along. Yes, this is what makes sense to me. This is like a validation of what you kind of knew, but it's
like in print, now somebody else feels that way too. You're not alone. You know, there's other people
out there that are working to affect change, and that just empowers you to feel like you can do that as
well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:56
That's awesome. For the next question, I'm going to list off a couple of different concepts and ask you if
if they are concepts that you remember discussing in any of your classes, and if so, which classes so
citizen professional or a citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic skills? Are those concepts that you
remember from particular classes?
Kim Yue 14:21
Yes, definitely. A Seat at the Table with with Dr. Clark.
Elaine Eschenbacher 14:27
Anything else you'd like to say about that?
Kim Yue 14:29
That was really an eye opening class. It was interesting. Every part of it was interesting to learn about it
definitely was not something that I knew those skills before. Power mapping was just so intriguing to me
that I've actually incorporated it into my DNP project. So yeah, I mean, it was it was, it was very
intriguing to me. And then, and then the hearing about emancipatory nursing, which is was, that was
like the favorite part of my class. To learn that process and those skills was really, that's something that
I will definitely take with me forever.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:21
Nice. Some of these questions overlap a little bit because we're hoping that if we ask them in different
ways, it'll maybe bring forth different ideas. So if it feels like that it's kind of intentional. Can you tell me
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a little bit more about what experiences are kind of pedagogical practices in the classroom or in your
coursework, helped you gain an understanding of the role of a citizen professional or citizen nurse?
Kim Yue 15:53
Well, in that class, we did we had the author come speak to us, and his name is escaping me.
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:01
Oh, no, that's okay. I think Harry Boyte.
Kim Yue 16:05
Yes. Yeah. So in that class, we had Harry Boyte come and speak with us, and that just brought
everything to life. It brought the book to life, definitely. And to hear directly from somebody who is so
directly involved in social justice work was pretty amazing. And I have a lot of reverence and awe for
him.
Elaine Eschenbacher 16:39
Do you feel better equipped to lead change either in or outside of healthcare institutions after your
educational experiences at Augsburg? And if so, how?
Kim Yue 16:54
That would have been a very easy yes or no question. The answer is yes. I keep track of all the
concepts that we've gone over in all of the classes. And I can just tell in my everyday experience at
work, that I see these concepts throughout my day, and yes, I do feel equipped to make change and I
am making change. So at work, and my DNP project will be a large part of that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:36
Would you mind describing a little bit about your DNP project?
Kim Yue 17:39
Sure. My DNP project is called Kim's lovve project. And LOVVE, love stands for LGBTQ outpatient vital
and valuable education for healthcare providers. So it will be a four class advocacy program for the
LGBTQ community within within my hospital. There's a lot of intersectional issues where I work. So we
explore intersectionality, we explore history of LGBTQ issues. We're exploring discrimination and
oppression and how those those affected social determinants of health and how we can be effective
allies to support them when they come into our hospital, in our spaces, and in the community. I chose
allyship because if you learn allyship for one marginalized community, it really can be applied to any
community and any person that needs allyship. So that's what we're doing.
Elaine Eschenbacher 19:07
Great. How did you come to that idea? What made you decide to design that?
Kim Yue 19:13
So initially, when I came to Augsburg, the LGBTQ community was always a community that I wanted to
work with. Just because wrapping my head around the concept of discriminating against somebody just
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for who they love or who they are just is just so foreign to me. I just don't understand it. And it just felt
like if you look in our community, like a trans black woman is probably the most at risk person that we
could have walk into our in the hospital. So I wanted to help that population.
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:12
So thinking back on your education at Augsburg and and how the civic skills and these concepts played
into it, what do you think could have helped you better understand civic skills or the concepts that we've
highlighted in this interview? And two part question and what concepts were the most challenging to
kind of grasp?
Kim Yue 20:35
I was never really a good social studies student in school, so when it comes to government, politics,
how everything works, I'm was just never really very knowledgeable of that. I think that the class
definitely hit on, you know, how to try to affect change within your community. I feel maybe a little bit
more civics basics for those of us who are not that politically engaged, might be helpful.
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:24
That makes good sense. Yeah.
Kim Yue 21:25
But, but the concepts that I learned were very easily applicable.
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:35
Did any of those concepts impact either your current practice or your understanding of the profession of
nursing? You actually talked to a couple questions ago about how you see these concepts every day?
Kim Yue 22:06
I do. I see a lot of the concepts from all of Augsburg? I definitely feel like I'm more in tune to civic
engagement, like locally and nationally, and internationally. Right now, especially. So I mean, it
definitely has informed me - have I have I acted on that - (saying) I am more engaged? I don't think I'm
more engaged then where I was, I was always somebody who read up on the issues, read up about the
people running for office, I always voted. But have I gotten a group together in my community to try to
change something? No, because I'm a little busy with my project. Hopefully, someday.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:16
Yeah. Well, and we definitely believe that civic engagement can take place through your work too,
right? So it doesn't, it doesn't necessarily have to be some external project that you do on your own
time. And certainly, I think your DNP project is a great example of that. And are there other
experiences, even little micro experiences that come to mind where you've kind of put some of those
concepts into practice?
Kim Yue 23:47
Well, hopefully, if this can can happen, we're trying very hard now that COVID has gone away, I will try
to be having like a town hall meeting of the community within the hospital, to gather some stories to
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help inform my class on my classes that I will be teaching for my DNP project. So it hasn't happened
yet. But I'm very hopeful that it will. Because I feel very strongly that the community needs to be
involved. They need to have ownership and they should tell us what what are the problems that they
experienced? We shouldn't just be assuming, just because I've read 500 articles about what people
experience, it doesn't necessarily mean that that's going to be their experience. I mean, if
intersectionality has taught us anything, it's that every single person has a different intersection of
issues. So if I don't hear directly from the community, I'm not going to know if there's any one particular
thing that that has happened to them that I would not have known about. So hoping that will, hopefully
that will happen.
Elaine Eschenbacher 25:11
Yeah. When you when you imagine those townhall meetings what's your vision? How do you see it
playing out?
Kim Yue 25:20
So it can be a little daunting to stand up there and say, "What problems have you had?", because I will
be the face of the place that possibly could have been causing these problems. So I'm going to be
stressing that, you know, we should hear the good things as well as the bad because the good things
needs to be reinforced as well, as bad things need to be changed. Because of the some restrictions,
still with COVID, it will be a somewhat small group. So I'm retargeting some community leaders within
the LGBTQ community in our town in the city. And hopefully, they will be able to make it and and
hopefully, they'll be able to have good things and some constructive criticism as well. If we can manage
it, I'm also hoping to have a special town hall meeting just with kids and their parents.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:32
Nice.
Kim Yue 26:34
Because I'm a pediatric nurse, I know that there's other issues just related to kids that you know, that
adults might not have that issue. So yeah, we're hoping to do that as well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:47
I hope it works for you.
Kim Yue 26:51
Me too. I keep putting it off hoping that it'll go away and we can meet in person because these are very
intimate issues. It's kind of impersonal to do that over Zoom, although, if anything has taught us those
past two years is that we can form very quickly, we can form some pretty strong relationships over
Zoom. You know, my cohort and I are very tight. We're very supportive of each other. And so I'm sure
that we could convey that over Zoom, but it's always easier to do in person.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:33
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So which experiences at Augsburg stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and
kind of integrate lessons across coursework, across your coursework and community engaged
learning? So there's a lot there. It's possible that none do stand out?
Kim Yue 27:54
Well, I mean, as I said earlier, every class I learned just a little bit more that just broadens my horizons
even more. So it's, the classwork is so carefully constructed that it just builds upon each other, which is
just brilliant. So um, I would say that the cosmologies class was probably stood out for me, which I
going into that class, I was like, Oh, I do not know what I'm getting to here. I'm not sure about this. This
is this just doesn't sound like something I'm gonna be able to grasp. But actually, it really, it definitely, it
spoke right to me. And, you know, reinforced the fact that we're, you know, we're all connected. And
yes, so actually inspired me to finish my Reiki training. So I became a Reiki Master after that, because
it just kind of like, reignited my passion for that. And so yeah, that was and so when you start to look at
everybody in the world, as somebody that is a part of you. It definitely makes you view everything
differently.
Elaine Eschenbacher 29:26
Is there anything that you'd wish you'd learned at Augsburg but haven't yet?
Kim Yue 29:37
Well, now I still have a year to go. Um I wouldn't say that it's something I haven't learned. But
something that unfortunately our cohort has not been able to do is to go on a lot of the immersions. And
so I feel like those are really huge opportunities for some life changing learning right there. So we are
hoping to go this coming year. To a little bit of it. I think that's really part of the whole program.
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:28
You talked a little bit about this kind of at the beginning, but how has the pandemic changed your view
of the profession of nursing?
Kim Yue 30:37
Hmm. It's changed so much. I mean, I've always known that there was you know, that individual nurses
could be at risk for violence and things like that, but I never really thought of us as being a population
that would be so at risk, just physically from from something that we could not control, like the virus. So
watching, you know, watching co workers get sick was It was horrifying. You know, and then just
thatimmense stress every day of am I bringing this home to my family? I don't want to be around my
family because I want to protect them. You know? Anytime you sneeze or something you were like, oh,
gosh, isolate me. Yeah, it was a super amount of stress. Nursing was always a stressful profession, but
COVID just took that up 10 notches. And now there's so much. We're losing so much staff, like they're
they're leaving, but they're not leaving nursing, they're leaving to travel. And then we're getting travelers
in and those are not the nurses that we're always used to, and they're very good. And we're very
grateful that they're here. But that, that change that flux, it's just it's rough. It's a lot of turnover, the
staffing has been so difficult. And I'm not even the staff nurse, but I feel the crunch, you know, so when
my patients are in the ICU, I will go to help support them. Because I want to make sure my patients are
going to be okay. But I want to make sure that the nurses are okay, too. And so it definitely it's changed
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a lot about nursing. So I have to give every undergrad nursing student that's in the program right now
huge kudos because it definitely, it's hard. It's hard to look at the progression right now. Yeah, it's been
difficult.
Elaine Eschenbacher 33:13
Thank you. Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in making decisions in this constant
changing landscape of healthcare?
Kim Yue 33:24
I have a voice to a point. I'm supported to a point. I wouldn't say that, my institution, while it's very
supportive of everything that I've suggested, it's also still just not fully 100% supportive of APNs and
nurse practitioners working to the fullest extent. That's definitely a battle that we need to forge ahead
with. We kind of hope that COVID would have kind of changed that and it didn't. So, yes, if there's
anything that I suggest, they're like, carte blanche, as long as it's not going to cost us money, you can
do whatever you want. But once it gets to the point where well, we need more staff or we need to do
this, we should do that. If it's going to cost any money. We're done, that's it. And most things do cost
money. Yes. Yes. Well, to be effective, usually.
Elaine Eschenbacher 34:44
So now you probably have a good sense of what we're going for. You've heard all my questions. Is
there anything else that you would like to share that I didn't ask kind of in this category of things?
Kim Yue 34:55
I would to just say that Augsburg's biggest treasure is their professors. They're phenomenal. And I am
so incredibly grateful to them. That's it.
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Show less
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2022)
4/5/2022 • 33:07
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
nurse, people, Augsburg, community, role, pandemic, nursing, feel, primary care providers, patient,
antivirals, healthcare, er, citizen, concepts, Park Nicollet, health, experience, skills, commons
SPEAKERS
Elaine Esche... Show more
Oral History with Jenna Nelson (2022)
4/5/2022 • 33:07
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
nurse, people, Augsburg, community, role, pandemic, nursing, feel, primary care providers, patient,
antivirals, healthcare, er, citizen, concepts, Park Nicollet, health, experience, skills, commons
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Jenna Nelson
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:06
Thanks for joining me today, Jenna for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My
name is Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work.
And would you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Jenna Nelson 00:28
My name is Jenna Nelson. I'm a nurse and I work in the emergency department and I work as a triage
nurse. And I'm a student also.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:36
Great, thank you. Before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being interviewed
and having a recording of that interview stored at Augsburg University where it could be made available
to the public.
Jenna Nelson 00:49
Yes, great. Thanks.
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:55
Tell me a little bit about your education background and what you're currently studying at Augsburg.
Jenna Nelson 01:01
Yeah, so I went, I did my undergrad for a bachelor's at the University of Minnesota. And then I took a
good about eight years out of school, and then I went back in 2017, to do the Doctorate of Nursing
Practice program. And I should be graduating shortly. And I don't think I've done really much else
education wise than that.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:28
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Yeah, that's a lot. Before you came to answer you were working as a nurse, is that right? For the eight
year period? Okay, so before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse with regard
to being engaged in community or creating change institutions?
Jenna Nelson 01:50
Um, I think especially working in the ER, I just saw myself as somebody who would care for whatever
community I was working in, regardless of the need and the acuity of like, their situation when they
come to the ER. And that's kind of the, to the extent of it. Sometimes I'd have friends that would ask
healthcare type questions, but really, I just my role was mostly while I was like, clocked in and so ER,
really does work with surrounding community a lot. So that was, that was about it.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:27
Has your view of the role of nurse of a nurse changed since being at Augsburg?
Jenna Nelson 02:35
Yeah, dramatically, I think. I felt like nursing was one of those things where, you know, people did it
because there was some kind of drive to do it. And, but that, like, again, it was just something where
you clock in and you do it, and then you go home, and you do regular day to day stuff. But with the
program I'm in, even early on in the program, we had classes that allowed for us to do stuff in the
community, and then just introduced us to programs within the community, where in some of these
programs, nurses worked with other like, professionals, or members of that community to, you know,
accomplish a goal. And so I just started seeing all the different ways even I did like a thing at the
Capitol. And it was about, no, it was It wasn't at the Capitol, but it was a conference but I think the last
day we went to the Capitol, and it was policymaking. And so to me, too, that really opened my eyes to
how they can advocate in that kind of realm for changes within healthcare and just in general
community health.
Elaine Eschenbacher 03:43
So it sounds like there was definitely a shift in how you view nursing and the role of an of a nurse, can
you name what the shift was?
Jenna Nelson 03:52
Yeah, I think the role would be more just kind of like for me, I guess I saw people doing it more for like a
purpose driven reason versus a income driven reason. So that to me, it was interesting. And I think
yeah, as the years went on, too, I could see more and more how how nurses can have that like role.
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:32
I'm gonna list a few different concepts and ask you if you remember them being discussed in your
class. So do you remember concepts like citizen professional or citizen nurse, civic engagement or civic
skills being discussed in any of your classes? And if so, what what stands out in your memory? What
do you remember?
Jenna Nelson 04:52
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I remember we read the Citizen Solution. And we even had the author come in, we were lucky enough
to have him come in and he just kind of told us about himself and some things he'd been involved with,
and we got to ask some questions. But the citizen nurse too with being at the Health Commons, I
started volunteering there to get practicum hours that I had to have. And then I just started coming in
occasionally when I could. And we talked a lot about citizen nurse there as well, just using our
knowledge if it was elicited by community members to just to be available and consider, like, what else
could a role be in that environment? And then kind of consult with the people in that environment? You
know, do you need a role like this? What do you need from us?
Elaine Eschenbacher 06:14
How would you describe the role in that environment?
Jenna Nelson 06:18
Um, gosh. It's interesting, because it's, it's nice, because it's not that hierarchy that you see, honestly, in
most medical facilities. It's more of a, it even feels more of a shared space, which when Katie talked
about it, I didn't know I was like, how does that work? But I do feel like I'm, it's not my space. It's like
their space when the community members that utilize it are there. A lot of nursing schools and
education and undergrad and graduate, they talk about this whole idea of nurses having this type of
role. And they don't always define it as like the citizen nurse type role. But this is a very good example
of that in action, it's probably the best example I've seen. And it's hard, because a lot of the stuff that
happens there, I'm still trying to figure out ways to articulate it and describe it. I think the only way you
really can describe some of it is if people wrote down their interactions with individuals, and then people
that are coming in and utilizing this kind of service or open space. Also, if they could write down, you
know, certain interactions they had with the nurses and the volunteers there to kind of weed out what
that difference is.
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:47
That'd be an interesting next research project for sure. The idea of shared space is interesting, because
like, when I think about, you know, if I have to go to urgent care clinic or whatever, I don't think of that
as my space. But with Health Commons, it sounds very different.
Jenna Nelson 08:04
Yeah, it is, I mean, people come in, and they can just kind of take a seat, and they just talk. And
sometimes there's some people that are there, and they stay almost the whole time. And then some
people just literally come in for the free store. They're in and out as quick as they can be. But I've had
people ask questions, ask him about resources, some people just kind of having a rough time. And so
or it's their first experience with being unhoused or experiencing homelessness, and so just kind of not
necessarily being like, Oh, let me solve your problem. Here you go. Just listening and seeing if there's
anything I know of that might be beneficial for them. And if they're interested, then I can share more. If
not, then, you know, my overall role is just to kind of be present and available for questions that people
have it.
Elaine Eschenbacher 08:54
What about the civic skills? Do you remember discussing civic skills in any of your classes?
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Jenna Nelson 09:00
Yeah, in our politics of healthcare class, and then one of the earlier ones too, I feel like we talked a lot
about that. And I'm still trying to wrap my head around it because it's not, I feel like if you work in policy,
or like, you get an undergrad degree in politics or something, I don't know, it feels like that's where a lot
of that discussion will happen. And so I'm still trying to understand it more, just the ideas behind.
Elaine Eschenbacher 09:35
Can you tell me about which experiences in your classroom or coursework, helped you gain an
understanding of the role of the citizen professional or the citizen nurse? What specific kind of
pedagogical practices that you experienced?
Jenna Nelson 09:54
Being brought into that environment and like actually seeing it in practice observing so that I felt
comfortable and then actually be able to do it myself. And then for me in particular, I've been lucky
enough to been offered like a role as an intern and then now even further that might go further once I'm
done with school, which is amazing. But other things would be just I went to like this conference, again
about health care policy, and I can't remember the exact name of it, but just to talk about how nurses
can use their their title basically, and their experience and knowledge to advocate for something. Like a
policy change on a state or even like, like larger level.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:52
Do you personally feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare institutions
because of your educational experiences at Augsburg?
Jenna Nelson 11:02
I don't know. I wish there was more of it truthfully. And for me, I'm not, I wouldn't say like at all
leadership material, so to say, but I think there are certain qualities where maybe because I don't see
myself as leadership material, I might do well in certain areas of leading people or influencing people to
kind of, you know, consider things or even teach. But I think it would have been good to have more of
the types of things where you went to the community and saw these programs and got to meet people
who started them or around them, or who experienced certain obstacles and barriers in their life that led
them to where they were. Yeah, so for me, too, personally, like I said, I'm more of a person that, I work
hard, I want to be on the team. But the leading thing, I would want more hands on, like, so to speak.
Elaine Eschenbacher 12:15
You talked about politics of change. Were there other things that you did as part of your coursework,
where you did have some more of that hands on step or where you did interact with people who were
involved in the kinds of things you just discussed.
Jenna Nelson 12:33
Um, just basically, like practicum hours that I did. And those were, most of those were independently
found, like I found them myself, and then I applied to have them as an independent study so that I can
meet those hours. One of them to like, we went to people that I work with in Regions work with a place
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called Mano y Mano. And so they go to Bolivia, pre-pandemic, and would do a conference yearly with
healthcare professionals in really rural remote, high altitude parts of Bolivia. And with interpreters from
like Children's Hospital and other hospitals in the metro, they would come along to, and we would
teach. We would just teach emergency type healthcare type stuff. And so that was another thing that I
did where it was giving a presentation at a conference while someone's interpreting, you know, and
then with people that were I don't speak the language, but still having an interpreter present, and being
able to just be within that community and offer any any education or information that they wanted or
needed, was really a cool experience.
Elaine Eschenbacher 13:45
Yeah, it sounds like it. What could have helped you better understand specific skills or the kinds of
concepts that we've been talking about in this interview. So what could have helped you understand
them better? And which of those concepts were the most challenging to understand?
Jenna Nelson 14:07
I think, I hate to say like reading books about it. But I mean, if there are like books that really like give
good examples and summarize some of these skills, that would have been interesting, and then doing
a project that would require us to utilize those. And it could be hypothetical, or it could be something
where we really had to do it in some ways. I think it'd be better if it was hypothetical. Because then
people can be more creative with what they might do, and research things and not be so scared with
our scholarly project. We had to you know, do implement something or review a topic. It wasn't really
like a research project the way that you would think of like, oh, here's intervention and let's do
randomized controlled trials. It was different than that, but yeah, I wish we would have had something
with civic skills so that we could better articulate it as well. And I do think there are some books that
would probably be helpful.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:12
So it sounds like applying those civic skills, even if it's to a hypothetical problem would have helped you
kind of?
Jenna Nelson 15:18
Yes. Yeah. For me. Yeah, definitely.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:21
Were there any particular concepts or issues kind of in this category that stood out to you is the most
challenging to grasp or understand?
Jenna Nelson 15:31
Um, I feel like I don't even have necessarily like the words or the, the terms, the proper terms to
articulate what, yeah. But it's, it's like the idea of just the democracy and the citizenship and the all of
that, I feel like, we don't learn that as nurses, we really don't. And maybe in other graduate programs,
they also have a portion of it like we did. I guess I doubt that they did. Actual engaging with community
and stuff like that, but having a class devoted to that, more than one, but I mean, realistically, at least
one where you're getting like three or four credits even, would be good.
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Elaine Eschenbacher 16:27
Did any of the kinds of course concepts that we've been talking about impact your current practice, or
your understanding of the profession of nursing?
Jenna Nelson 16:38
Yeah, a lot. I don't see my role as like a physician, especially with getting the advanced degree and
being a nurse becoming a nurse practitioner. I really do see how nursing is different than medicine. And
because it's like an off branch of medicine, that's how nurses even started to do what they do and
professionalize it, there's going to be like, we're working within that realm of health. And the biggest
realm of health is medicine, with the most research and study and everything, but with nurses being
able to become advanced nurse practitioners, they don't necessarily have to 100% function within that
realm of medicine. I mean, they have to, of course, use evidence based scientific inquiry all those
things to provide, you know, diagnostic tools and treatment plans for people. But their approach doesn't
have to be the medical model, it can be more as a member of that community, or even if they don't live
in that community that they're working in just the fact that they work there. They're a member of that
community. And having more of an even relationship where like the patient and the nurse practitioner,
one isn't necessarily more knowledgeable about the patient's health, if anything, the patient might be a
little bit because they're the ones that are living in their bodies. And have experienced the life they've
experienced. But I think the skills that we've learned made me realize that nursing really is different
than medicine. And in little ways, lots of nurses, registered staff, nurses LPNs have these skills, they
just don't know it. They don't even know they exist, or there's terms or ways to describe them.
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:33
Yeah, knowing the names for them is one thing. And living them out is quite another.
Jenna Nelson 18:39
Yeah. Yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:40
So you talked about, like the role of a nurse practitioner or any, any other kind of nurse being certainly
connected to the medical model, but different than the medical model? Could you say a little bit more
about what the difference is? And maybe even if you have a story from your own experience that kind
of illustrates that difference?
Jenna Nelson 19:02
Yeah, I guess the difference is with the medical model. An example might be like an ER where a
physician is saying, okay, you know, what's the patient's chief complaint? They're coming in because
they have like knee pain, and it's been bothering them for years. But you know, it's in their medical
record. It's been going on for years. And so the physician is trying to figure out, why did they really
come in today? And it's going to be associated with a chief complaint. So then they'll do a workup, kind
of revolving around this chief complaint of knee pain or something. But their nurse, you know, their staff
nurse might come in and talk with them kind of get their history. And that's usually when patients share
more information, like I just lost my job or I'm going to get evicted. Or I guess kind of looking at the
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patient and realizing that whether or not the knee pain is the main reason they came in, and whether or
not it's truly worse than it had been. The reason they probably came in is because of like, there's all
these, it's multifaceted. There's all these things causing them to need to feel a need to come in. So
they're under more stress, maybe they're, you know, they can't pay for their medications. And once you
kind of address those things, or even know that they're like existing, then you can overall probably
provide the patient with what they really need versus just saying, "Well, I didn't find anything wrong with
your knee today. But you can follow up with your primary care provider in the next two weeks, and then
go from there." Or I'll refer you to orthopedics. You know what I mean? So it's more just this like whole,
like, whole, it is holistic, I guess, in that sense, where you're like, wait, what's going on with this person?
Why are they really here?
Elaine Eschenbacher 20:48
That's a great example. Thank you. Which experiences at Augsburg standout to you as meaningful
opportunities to learn and reflect and kind of integrate lessons across coursework and community
engaged learning?
Jenna Nelson 21:10
Well, I mean, being just being with like, within the community, even the Health Commons, I was kind of
talking a lot about the Health Commons over essential, but the one at Cedar Riverside, I mean, that's
the community where Augsburg is, too. And so it's literally like their neighbors. And to just see what's
been going on within that community, since the beginning of the pandemic, and how things are evolving
over there is having that opportunity to work to volunteer work in the Health Commons, really shows me
that. But I wish there was more classes, kind of like the politics and healthcare class that we had, where
we would, you know, have these experiences and then come back and debrief. We, we did this thing at
Central Lutheran, where I don't remember what it was called, but it was for people who have or are
currently experiencing homelessness, and they, they meet every,you know, Thursday, and have maybe
a 45 minute to hour meeting. And it's just them. And then they have guest speakers that everybody's
agreed on to come in? Well, as part of it, our instructor thought it would be a good idea for us to kind of
be within that community. And then she, I think, asked them, and they got to vote on if they were going
to let the students come to one of these meetings one day. And they agreed. And so then we came and
we were going to ask them about different things about their lives, just in general. And the minute like
the door is open, and we all walk in, it's like a group of mostly Caucasian females in their 20s and 30s.
And walking in and they all like, you could tell the vibe just went down. And so then to go in there
feeling it and being like, God, this is awkward for some reason, and I don't know why. And then talking
to people that were experiencing homelessness or had experienced homelessness, and like, I had a
poor experience with somebody I was talking to, you could tell she was annoyed with me. And she's
like, I just want to eat my breakfast. And I was like, Okay, I hear ya, I'll let you eat your breakfast. But
after that, talking about what did we learn when we asked these questions, because we kind of did oral
history, like interview with them. And then just talking about actually what happened to the whole big
picture of us coming in there and like it, I don't think it turned out the way we wanted it to. But it was a
learning opportunity for all of us to be like if we're ever going to do something like this, it has to be it
would have to be a little different to prevent that shift from occurring.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:41
-7-
Reflecting on it the way you did afterwards makes that you see it differently. What I'm hearing you say
is you see it differently than if you had just done it and then everyone went their own separate ways.
Jenna Nelson 23:54
We talked about like, we all experience the same thing to some degree. And then we all kind of tried to
troubleshoot why we have. Then the cool thing would have been to go back and ask the people who
were there and say, Why did you notice this? And it's, I mean, I think part of it is to we make a lot of
assumptions about people and how they perceive us in general. And that's any human really, but it
would be cool to either have those assumptions supported or learn something new about them.
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:26
And just to be open to the fact that your assumptions may be wrong. This is an interesting piece of this
too. Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't or
haven't yet?
Jenna Nelson 24:44
Um yeah, I guess like to kind of be able to like lead more. I could manage things I can delegate but and
I don't know if you can really teach that well, just with books like in the classroom and writing papers, I
think, you know, it would maybe be more things like this. And the thing is like, I think maybe you could
say a fifth of our coursework, the first two years of the program are devoted to this stuff, I guess, but I
wish there had been more and I wish it was throughout the whole program. The only reason for me it's
been throughout the whole program is because I was able to continue doing the Health Commons.
Elaine Eschenbacher 25:31
Okay. All right. So because you were working at the Health Commons, you continue to experience
those things. Whereas had you gone through the program without that, it would have shifted, and you
wouldn't have had these sort of citizen concepts throughout, is that right?
Jenna Nelson 25:49
Yeah, yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 25:53
Um, here's a big question for you. How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of
nursing?
Jenna Nelson 26:06
I guess? That is a big question. I don't know, I feel like when I think about health care, especially health
care in the United States, because that's the kind of health care I know the most about. It just made me
realize how much nurses do and how much knowledge we have that we don't know we have. And how
our role in as a triage nurse and as an ER nurse, just like the role we have in educating the public on
something like this. And providing them with comfort, you know, with or just facts, we play a role in
having to deal with people who disagree with you know, they have a different story or different narrative
about what's happening. They think it's a political government type thing. And so not only are nurses
trying to educate, actually put themselves on the frontline, especially in the beginning was scary to go
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to the ER, I'm like, I don't really know, I like don't touch me, when I get home. When I talk to my kids. I
was like, you can't, I have to take a shower, I put my stuff, yeah. But I mean, nurses are on the front
line. So to some degree, when we didn't know how bad COVID was, or how bad it could be, we're
putting ourselves at risk along with other, you know, janitors, housekeepers, dietary staff. But then
having to educate people and then having to treat them even after they're telling us that we're wrong
and we're lying and, you know, we're trying to kill them. When they're in respiratory distress, getting
them on a ventilator, you know, I just saw all that stuff. And then you see, like the Minnesota
Department of Public Health, just getting used to utilizing the website and stuff. A lot of stuff nurses are
trying to explain that to the general population who might not have a medical background and might not
even have like a sixth grade reading level. And so even for me, at like the Health Partners, as a triage
nurse, in our system right now, Health Partners, and I think Park Nicollet. People who are getting the
antivirals are not getting them prescribed by their physicians, or ER physicians or urgent care
physicians, they're getting prescribed through standing orders by the nurses, the clinic nurses and the
triage nurses. And I don't necessarily think it's unsafe, I think the training we received about it is safe.
However, it's just interesting that like, a lot of people are saying, I talk to my doctor about this, or I talk
to my ER doc about this. And they know nothing. They don't know about how I get these antivirals.
They don't know how to do monoclonal antibody treatment. They don't know the mechanism, the side
effects, they don't even know what my drugs might interact with those things. And I'm like, That's all
nursing. That's insane. Because I think some nurses really think like, I have some skills I can put an IV
in. I know what the human body does. But that's it. It's like no, I mean, this pandemic is really showing
me like how important nurses are with with this kind of thing.
Elaine Eschenbacher 29:13
How did it come to be like that, like with the example you just gave me with antivirals.
Jenna Nelson 29:18
I think it has more to do with, it's easier to access a nurse for us Health Partners. Nurse care line is a
free service and anyone can utilize it. So and to get, I think, to get that go through the standing order,
they have to be an established patient. But I mean that, you know, patients can be seen with Hennepin
Health, Allina, Fairview and all the different groups up here. But if they've been seeing, like a
HealthPartners provider Park Nicollet in the last two years or something, technically we consider them
established. So yeah, but I think it's just because we're easily accessible. There's more of us because it
doesn't cost as much money to employ us and there is a huge need for primary care providers and
everywhere.
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:01
Thanks for that. Do you feel like you are able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly
changing landscape of healthcare?
Jenna Nelson 30:12
Yeah, I'm really fortunate, I think in terms of where I'm employed in the ER at Regions, they are
amazing. We have a huge team there. And we've had a huge turnover within our administrative staff,
but they hear us they're constantly looking for feedback. They're being supportive. Same with Health
Partners, Care Line, we have educators, that we can email anytime call anytime, during business hours
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and get information. If we feel like something's not right, we asked that question to as a group. Like,
wait, why are we being the ones who are carrying the responsibility of prescribing antivirals to patients?
When we don't have a degree in medicine, or you know, advanced degrees to even have a license to
prescribe. And so discussing that more with them, they're really realistic, saying, you know, this is this
is what we have going on right now. There's, there's literally not enough primary care providers.
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:11
It sounds like in your immediate context, you feel like you have a voice and they seek your opinions.
What about sort of healthcare more broadly? Do you feel like you have a voice?
Jenna Nelson 31:19
Um, I guess I don't know, I don't, I never really think about it. More broadly, because I feel like I only
know the bubble I'm in. And I could read about stuff in other states or other parts of the country, but I
with pandemic or whatever, maybe it's because I've gotten older, I just, I don't pay attention to news or
anything like that anymore. And so I feel like you can only take some of the, you know, any information
I could get about health care in other parts of the country. You have to take it with a grain of salt if it's
coming from a certain source.
Elaine Eschenbacher 32:00
That makes sense. Plus you're working full time, and you're in school, and you've got a life. That's the
end of my formal questions, is there anything else that you want to share that I didn't ask?
Jenna Nelson 32:14
Um, I guess just like, I think we're pretty fortunate in our program to even get the chunk of education in
being like a citizen nurse that we do get, and that Augsburg should be proud of itself for being
supporting like things like the Health Commons. And I know there's tons of other things that they do
that I don't even know about. But I really wondered, I'm like, do all private colleges do this in their
community? It just seems right. I know. It seems crazy that like this is actually unique and different. So
it's kind of cool to just find myself in it.
Elaine Eschenbacher 32:54
Awesome. All right. Well, thank you for that. Thank you for your insights and stories.
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Show less
Oral History with Elizabeth Stulac
4/21/2022 • 36:41
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, nursing, nurse, experiences, interviewed, helped, class, leadership, learned, mentor,
professors, staff, unit, common theme, general, feel, pedagogical practices, biases, questions
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschen... Show more
Oral History with Elizabeth Stulac
4/21/2022 • 36:41
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, people, nursing, nurse, experiences, interviewed, helped, class, leadership, learned, mentor,
professors, staff, unit, common theme, general, feel, pedagogical practices, biases, questions
SPEAKERS
Elaine Eschenbacher, Elizabeth Stulac
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:08
Thank you for joining me today for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the Kettering
Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My name is
Elaine Eschenbacher. I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work at
Augsburg. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
Elizabeth Stulac 00:30
Yeah. My name is Elizabeth Stulac. I am a registered nurse at Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota.
I've been a registered nurse for a little over eight years, I've worked in cardiac surgery, the medical ICU
and now I'm the RRT (Rapid Response Team) nurse for the hospital and then I work in the eICU, which
is telehealth, ICU. And then I'm also the chair of the Department of Nursing Diversity, Equity and
Inclusion council. So we have been doing a lot of work there as well.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:05
Awesome. Great. Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you do consent to being interviewed
and having this interview stored at Augsburg University where it will be made available to the public.
Elizabeth Stulac 01:19
Yes,
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:20
Okay. Um, to start, if you could tell me a little bit about your educational background, and what you're
currently studying at Augsburg?
Elizabeth Stulac 01:29
Yeah. So my educational background actually, should I go like how far back?
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:38
However far feels relevant.
-1-
Elizabeth Stulac 01:40
So I actually think it's a big deal, because I to say, like my high school, because I didn't actually do very
well in high school. And I ended up graduating from an Alternative Learning Center, which is known as
like for bad kids. So I graduated from an ALC in a smaller town of Elk River, Minnesota, where I feel like
my professors, actually it had smaller classes. My professors were very, like, very much more aware of
me and who I was, and not just teaching a big class I wasn't left behind. I did very well actually ended
up graduating early from that school. And I was given a $1,500 scholarship to go to college. So I first
started at Anoka Ramsey Community College, which is a two year college. And I think that $1,500 and
just having my high school teachers really believe in me, really made a huge impact because I was not
going down a good road. Once I got into college, and I had I know I had people that had my back. And I
was actually really interested in the stuff I was learning. I got a 4.0 I would I did a lot better. I got my two
year degree, an Associates of Arts degree. And then I went on for my bachelor's in the science of
nursing degree at St. Cloud State. And then I got a job at Mayo Clinic. So I've been working there again
for about eight years. In 2020, that's when I applied for my graduate program. And I originally I didn't
really know what I wanted to do, I thought I wanted to be an FNP so I went to school for the FNP
program at Augsburg. I feel like the universe kind of like pulled me in a different direction, because I
finished a year and a half of my FNP program and I was spending so much more time on dismantling,
organizational biases and spending so much more time on trying to figure all of this stuff out and like
people power mapping and doing all of that that I wasn't really focused on my FNP work as much so
that's when this last semester I actually spoke with Katie Clark, who's been like a major mentor for me
and like role model. And she I talked to her and Joyce Miller and I decided to switch programs. So I
went back and I'm going through leadership now. So I'm in the Masters of Arts and leadership
transformational leadership, which has a lot of you know, transcultural nursing and diversity, equity and
inclusion and anti racism work and it just feels so much more better for where I'm at where my what my
passion is.
Elaine Eschenbacher 04:56
Yeah. Awesome. And that's a great success story of alternative learning centers too.
Elizabeth Stulac 05:16
Yeah, yeah. And it just shows like the power of like, having people believe in you. Honest. Yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 05:25
Nice. Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being
engaged in the community or being able to create change in institutions?
Elizabeth Stulac 05:39
Before I came to Augsburg, I think I had a lot of questions about the world around me. And I knew that
there was disadvantages for certain people. But I wasn't really sure how to go about it. I didn't have the
skill set. I didn't know really what to do. So I think I viewed myself as a ICU nurse. And I was a
preceptor at the time, I was a charge nurse, but I never really saw the bigger picture. I don't think like, I
think I had a lot of like trauma, honestly, like, racial trauma from my past, because I'm Asian American,
and grew up in like, you know, I was in a diverse city at first, and then I was like, the only person of
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color in like, smaller towns, and I think I just kind of fell into this, you know, this, this stereotype. And I
would stereotype myself too. And I would think, you know, I can't really do what other people are doing.
You know, there's not many people of color in leadership. Like, there's not many things that I can do. I
kind of feel like I was stuck in place, if that makes sense.
Elaine Eschenbacher 07:06
Yeah. Thank you. Has your view of your role as a nurse changed since being at Augsburg and if so
how?
Elizabeth Stulac 07:20
My view of it as a nurse changed dramatically from being at Augsburg. I think just the biases that they
teach about and you know, racism is a public health crisis and transcultural nursing, and just the bigger
picture of historical trauma and really seeing the world as a whole the community efforts that they do,
bringing you into the community and actually engaging with these community members and talking to
them and seeing them and learning from them. I think just makes you a more well rounded, not even
just nurse, but an individual, which impacts you as a nurse because, you know, they co-align. So I think
my worldview actually changed a little bit just from coming to Augsburg, I was able to broaden my
worldview instead of being so narrow.
Elaine Eschenbacher 08:23
That's quite a testimony. So thinking about your courses at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen
professional or the citizen nurse, civic engagement, or civic skills discussed in your classes? And if so,
which do you remember, what stands out?
Elizabeth Stulac 08:44
They were discussed. I think the biggest things that I take away are Harry Boyte's civic skills. And I've
used a lot of them. And actually, those skills are what are helping me with in being Chair of the Diversity
Equity Inclusion Council that I'm on right now. They're helping me engage with different leaders gain
partnerships. I think power mapping was a big thing. And just trying to, you know, one on one
interviews, reaching out to these people and trying to, you know, share interests, try to figure out what
our shared interests are. And if we can work together for the common good of humanity, and small
group meetings. I literally use I think, most skills and I've said, I've sent his skills out actually to a lot of
people that have been trying to do this work for years. There's a lot of people that have been trying to
do this work for years. And I think if they would have had those skills, they could have gone they could
have gotten maybe, you know, times have changed, maybe. But they could have gotten maybe a little
bit farther.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:05
I'm interested if there's like a specific story, a specific example that you can give from your work where
one of those civic skills really played out?
Elizabeth Stulac 10:15
Yeah, oh, I have a lot, actually. So I guess it started in a couple of years ago, where I used one on one
interviewing. And I interviewed BIPOC staff actually on the front line, so within the Department of
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Nursing. And I really just talked to them. And I told them, you know, like, it'll be mostly you sharing your
experiences, I learned how to ask open ended questions, so I could really listen to them, I learned how
to be quiet, which is actually a big thing. During a conversation, when you kind of want it to like free
flow. I learned, that was probably where it started. So I interviewed 10 BIPOC staff, and I asked for their
experiences on racism throughout their life. A lot of their stories, I gained a common theme, which was
they had experienced stereotyping and racism within nursing, like at the bedside. And these are all
Allied health staff. So there was PCAs, there was a social worker, there was lab techs. And they all
shared common themes, which and then I asked them for their advice for change, like how would you
change this. And the common themes were that they wanted more representation within leadership.
They wanted mentorship programs like specifically for them, because we have a very homogenous
leadership. And there needs to be pathways for to diversify leadership, because no, no business in
general is good with an a homogenous leadership. And I feel like that it also truly impacts our patients.
Because on the front lines, especially I worked in the COVID ICU, you see the racial health disparities.
And they're the majority of our ICU during the first and second wave of COVID, were all ethnic
minorities, and a lot of them didn't speak English. So you really need those staff that are on the front
lines that can advocate for these patients, call to be culturally aware, their family is not able to be there
for them, especially during COVID. So I use those, and I documented them. And then I went, I applied
for a conference, which I found out, actually through power mapping and trying to build partnerships
with other people that and making them aware of this. So I actually found out through a physician, not
through one of my nurse leaders, and I went to this conference, it was called Rise for Equity, in
Minneapolis, and I presented all of these stories. And it was more a leadership conference. So there
were all leaders there, and a corporate conference, so they were people from inside of Mayo and
outside. And it just really made them more aware of the situations going on. From that, I was able to
like network and build more partnerships with people that have a common, you know, mission as me.
So I gained a lot of partnerships. And then I applied to be the chair of the Department of Nursing,
Diversity Equity Inclusion Council, and that, I think, was a huge step in the right direction, because
Mayo has never had DEI within the Department of Nursing. So from there, I was able to kind of map out
even more, you know, we need to collect data. So I was a I know I'm not good at that. So I was able to
find, email people and introduce myself and, you know, form one on one meetings and try to get a feel
for them and have tell them what's going on and have shared interests. So now we actually partnered
with so many people within the diversity science department, just from these little meetings, you know,
and there's researchers now that are going to help us collect this data and there's so many different
programs that we want to work on. One of them which is another huge thing for citizen nursing is we
understand that you need to hear the people on the front lines like the people that it truly matters. So
BIPOC staff I don't know if you know this, but in general, within the Department of Nursing at Mayo, and
I think throughout the nation is very much at the bottom of a hierarchy. And then once you go more and
more higher to the top of the hierarchy, it becomes more homogenous. And I think there's maybe a
handful of BIPOC staff. So if you really want to affect our patients, which is Mayo's number one value,
is our patients come first, you really have to listen to the frontline staff. So now we're coming up with
this EID (equity, inclusion, diversity unit Engagement Project), which we presented it to our CNO. And
our CNO is actually one of our other partners that I was able, you know, to build connections with. And I
wrote her a letter and just tried to kind of met one on one with her. And so now we meet with our CNO,
actually my co chair and I every other month. And that's a huge partnership, like just people in power
that really can help you with this mission. But our unit engagement project I'm so excited for so we will
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have equity inclusion, diversity champions within each unit at Mayo Clinic, inpatient and outpatient. So
those champions, we are going to have bi-directional information. And they'll collect data and with their
units, and then they'll come to the council, which is about 20 members of nurses, allied health staff,
administrators, registered nurses, social workers everywhere down, but we'll connect with them build a
relationship, we'll try to bring these opportunities, so many opportunities, professional development
opportunities to each unit. So we'll kind of eliminate the middle barrier, and have people that these units
people on their units actually have a relationship with which I think is, again, super important. And then
you can build further partnerships and further projects and really just affect each unit, which is 55
inpatient units and more outpatient. And then I think it'll have really good success hopefully.
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:28
It sounds like you're laying the groundwork. That's fantastic. Can you tell me about which experiences
or pedagogical practices either in the classroom or your coursework really helped you gain an
understanding of the role of the citizen professional or citizen nurse?
Elizabeth Stulac 17:48
Yeah. So can you explain that word, though?
Elaine Eschenbacher 17:52
Pedagogical practices that one? Yeah. So like, ways of teaching or like what kinds of course or
classroom experiences so like, lecture is one example. Immersion might be another hands on.
Elizabeth Stulac 18:10
Okay, so, I think one of the biggest classes that and one of my first classes at Augsburg was it was
Dismantling White Body Supremacy. It was a practicum. And Katie Clark actually taught it. And I think
that was probably one of my favorite classes, and the one that maybe helped me think a little bit more
outside the box to begin with, where they go into, you know, like, just your own body and be aware of
like your own, you know, triggers and you're just more mindful. Which I actually had a lot of like,
historical trauma that I think I held up in my body that I just didn't even know about until I took that
class. I think the smaller like, group or the smaller classrooms, even though they're pretty large, but not
like, I'm not like I was in high school, you know, smaller classes are so much more beneficial, you can
actually engage and I think the professors at Augsburg are just so amazing. Like, they really, it's not
just like, they want to teach you but they really empower you to believe that you can create change. So,
and I've heard this not just for myself, but other my co-chair actually went to Augsburg too, so very,
very much the same outlook. I think that was a huge one. Honestly, most of the classes. Reiki was, I
forget what practicum I was but I was practicing Reiki to which I think are actually helped me be more, it
helps me cope throughout COVID, honestly, and I brought that, you know, like different healing
practices actually to my unit. And I was able to, like change the whole energy of our unit and like, make
people a lot more satisfied and feel like they're creating a change. You know, that was another huge
one. I took a practicum in Namibia, like online, I wish I could have gone there. But that was a huge one,
too. You just get to learn more about like different aspects and different worldviews. I think a huge one
was going I think it was 802, which Katie Clark actually taught. And we did a lot of, I guess, historical
things. So you want it was more like you have to figure out what challenge you have. And then it was
the you have to research the historical limitations behind that. And I think just that class in general,
-5-
made me really research racism within nursing, and like how much our history has impacted where we
are today, which I had no idea about until I took that class. The class Complexity Leadership was
amazing to this last one, because it really, I mean, the book, it was dismantling organizational bias. We
talked more about one on one interviews, and even now I learned, like, I'm taking that more with me,
because I'm getting to know the physicians I work with, and other people that are so different than me,
but actually like learning from them and learning about their differences and how we can, you know, still
learn from each other and how diversity is so important. And not just diversity, but inclusion, you have
to like, include people, there's a there's a lot. But I think the professors, in general, have been one of
the biggest takeaways, because they really care about you, and they care about your life outside of
school. They don't if you have a problem, you know, they know that you're working too, and they know
that you have outside home life that you need to manage. So they're very much okay, with with
everything, you know, I don't know how to explain that, I guess. But they're just very supportive. Very
supportive. Yeah. And I think that's probably the biggest thing.
Elaine Eschenbacher 22:48
So some of these questions kind of overlap, or you've, you've anticipated them a little bit. But maybe
you'll want to add to it. Do you feel better equipped to lead change inside or outside of healthcare
institutions? Because of your experience at Augsburg?
Elizabeth Stulac 23:03
Yes, 100% 100%. Actually.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:07
you've definitely illustrated that, do you have any other thought to add to it?
Elizabeth Stulac 23:14
I just love that Augsburg like, really teaches you about not just what's inside of an organization and
inside of like, patient care and everything like that, but they really look at the big picture. Like it's not just
your organization, it's the community around you, too. And how we're all connected, honestly. And your
professors, they just empower you to create change.
Elaine Eschenbacher 23:50
So this question kind of gets at what could we do better? So what could have helped you better
understand civic skills, or the other concepts we've highlighted in this interview? And which ones were
the most challenging to grasp?
Elizabeth Stulac 24:05
I don't even know if there's anything that you could do better. I'm going to try to think about something
because there's always something that people should do better. Um maybe after think on that one can
come back to it.
Elaine Eschenbacher 24:25
-6-
Yeah, that sounds good. Um, so you've also kind of answered this, but I'll ask it anyway. And you can
add to it if you want. Did any of the course concepts, these course concepts impact your current
practice, or your understanding of the profession of nursing?
Elizabeth Stulac 25:00
Yeah, yeah, they all have actually, I think they make me look at other points of view other people's point
of view a little bit better. And to understand that I have my own biases. And I can always, you know, try
to learn from other people. And even if we don't have the same outlook on something, there's a reason
normally that they don't think that way. And you just have to try to ask them or figure it out why they
have so many different people have different aspects of, you know, leadership, and they're doing it for a
reason. So it really makes you more, I guess, aware of other people and their jobs, and that they're not
doing stuff just to be mean. They're doing stuff for a reason, and they really are trying.
Elaine Eschenbacher 26:06
So thinking back on your various experiences at Augsburg, which experiences stand out to you as
meaningful opportunities to learn and reflect and kind of integrate these lessons across your
coursework and community engaged learning? What experiences kind of brought it all together for you?
Elizabeth Stulac 26:28
Ah, I think every experience I've had, most of them. I think that Racism as a Public Health Crisis. That
was a really big, important class in general. And I think the experiences of like class discussion and
getting to know your classmates, and kind of building connections there too, because you can really
partner with your classmates on certain issues.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:16
Is there anything that you wished you'd learned during your time at Augsburg but didn't or haven't yet?
Elizabeth Stulac 27:24
So I haven't learned this fully yet. But I do think just in my what I'm doing right now, because I'm doing a
lot of project management and a lot of like, coordination. I don't know if like there's a tool or more just
like project management skills, or even just like giving us a tool of organization would be helpful. But I
know I've talked to Joyce about that, too. And I can just any feedback that I've given to the instructors, it
seems like they listen and they'll, like, grasp on it and do it for the next class.
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:06
Yeah, I hear that the you have the conceptual leadership stuff. You need some of the hands on
implementation kinds of leadership things.
Elizabeth Stulac 28:16
Yes, a tool would be great, some sort of Excel tool that they teach you about that helps you organize
when you're like doing this, because I'm doing a departmental wide project right now. So it's a lot of just
organization and but I'm learning.
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:40
-7-
So this question is sometimes a big one, how has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of
nursing?
Elizabeth Stulac 28:50
The pandemics changed my view a lot, honestly. But mostly, I think, because I've worked in the COVID
ICU. And I think just like seeing healthcare disparities, or racial health disparities, in general, like seeing
it face first, instead of just learning about it really, really impacted me, especially because, you know,
my dad's Vietnamese and it really hits home for you when you know that your family is more at risk or
you yourself are more at risk, because of biases and different things in society. I think that was probably
one of the biggest like, things for me. And then just like how resilient you can be and how much you can
advocate for these people. These patients that really need you and they need you not even just at the
bedside, but you can do so much with helping outside of the scenes helping those people that are at
the bedside, helping the organization, you can do so much for your patients and the community around
you. Yeah, that's probably the biggest thing.
Elaine Eschenbacher 30:22
Do you feel like you've been able to have a voice in decision making within the constantly changing
landscape of healthcare?
Elizabeth Stulac 30:31
I think personally, I had to fight for a voice, which I think Augsburg actually helped me with. And my
professors actually helped me with, like, just giving me the tools, because I already had, you know, the
passion, but I just needed the tools to figure out how to get there. And I think I had to do a lot of fighting
and, and navigating. And I'm very glad that I had those tools. Because otherwise, I wouldn't have been
able to be where I am today. And hopefully, I'm even if it's like the littlest change, you know, like, I'm
creating some sort of impact for the next generation.
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:20
Is there anything else you would like to share that I didn't ask?
31:22
Oh the question that you asked before? Yeah, how they could do better. I'm thinking about mentoring.
That's probably just because I know, just for professional development in general, how important
mentoring is and, and for BIPOC, or just any, you know, historically, underrepresented person, I think a
mentoring program would be super cool, which I'm trying to create within the Department of Nursing,
too. But it would be awesome if like, they did something like that, where you know that somebody in the
year ahead of you even could come back and talk to the students and maybe even just like, have one
person, mentor a couple students or try to pair them in a certain way. There's, there's a ton of there's
certain questions you can ask, you know, like, if the mentor wants this personality, or what kind of skills
they need? Or like, do they care about if the person looks like them? Or speaks their first language?
And I think that would actually help a ton.
Elaine Eschenbacher 32:39
-8-
That's a really cool idea. What do you think? I can make some assumptions, but I want to hear it from
your voice. What would it help with?
Elizabeth Stulac 32:48
So just from my own experience, I think it would be nice, like, I'm, I'm so glad, like my professors were
my mentors. But you get a different point of view from somebody that like just gone through a class with
you or they have, you know, they're still at the bedside, and they have certain experiences, lived
experiences of you, I think a big thing for BIPOC staff from interviewing them. A huge thing is that they
want somebody that empathizes with them. And whether that be somebody that has walked in their
shoes before or had similar experiences. Just seeing them a semester ahead of you, or even outside of
the profession would be cool to like, what are like, you know, your senior year? Or what do you want to
do? This is somebody that graduated before you that did this, you know, and they if they can do it, like
all the BIPOC staff I've interviewed, a very common theme was that if they see somebody that looks
like them, that did it, they think they can do it, too. So it's just more confidence, you feel better, like
explaining yourself, like I'm struggling with this. And you think it diminishes the biases, just biases that
you have growing up, you know, wherever you live, those are the people that you are surrounded by, if
you live in a white neighborhood and your whole life, you're going to be surrounded by white people.
And I think there's a lot of biases that come with that. So that would be awesome, honestly. So I'm
trying to do that within the Department of Nursing right now. A lot of the interviews were like, in school,
too, and not at Augsburg, but like other schools, their nursing programs. There's a lot of things that
these people have had to jump through, and, their professors have told them straight out like 'you can't
do this.' Um, so I think just having somebody that understands you a little bit more.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:15
That's a great idea. We may have to call you and ask you to be a mentor at some point.
Elizabeth Stulac 35:20
No, totally. I would love that. Yeah.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:25
Anything else come to mind that you want to add?
Elizabeth Stulac 35:30
I'm just very grateful. I think I think the nursing program in general is amazing. And I know that even
people that have gone through social work programs, there other programs, they very much feel the
same thing. Like they feel empowered to, you know, do their job and help actually really create a
difference for people when they graduate. So I'm very much I guess, pro Augsburg now, just from my
own experience.
Elaine Eschenbacher 36:05
Well, thank you so much for your time and insight and answering our questions. It's been really great to
talk to you and I appreciate both the work that you do that contributes to this project, but also the work
that you do as a nurse in this super trying time. It's so important so thank you for that too.
-9-
Elizabeth Stulac 36:28
And thank you!
- 10 -
Show less
[HXS300] Augsburg COVID-19 Oral Hxstory
Project (2023) - Dor...
Sun, Apr 16, 2023 5:08PM
44:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, custodian, pandemic, husband, felt, students, happened, interview, addition, campus,
home, minnesota, supervisor, hospital, doors, pre, post, supported, libra... Show more
[HXS300] Augsburg COVID-19 Oral Hxstory
Project (2023) - Dor...
Sun, Apr 16, 2023 5:08PM
44:29
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, custodian, pandemic, husband, felt, students, happened, interview, addition, campus,
home, minnesota, supervisor, hospital, doors, pre, post, supported, library
SPEAKERS
Dorris Carter-Murray, Kay Carvajal Moran
Kay Carvajal Moran 00:00
Yes, I can see you. Yeah Today is Sunday, April 16 2023. My name is Kay, Carvajal Moran, I'm
interviewing doors Carter Murray for the 300 public history class which is conducting an oral
history project of Augsburg during the pandemic. Please note that you will be recorded and this
will be stored in an archive and is going to be made accessible to people. If there is any
question that you do not want to answer to the interview, that's perfectly fine. If there's
something that you want to talk about, please let me know and we can include it. Your
participation is voluntarily and you are free to leave at any point. May we start the interview we
may Can you introduce yourself? Please state your name, your last name, preferred name and
your pronouns?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 01:02
Dorris Carter-Murray. Preferred name Dorris pronouns she her.
Kay Carvajal Moran 01:13
Can you please tell me a little bit about yourself for example, about your upbringing growing
up, or just a little bit about your family.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 01:20
Okay, so I'm the next to the youngest. I was born and raised in Chicago, Illinois. April 28.
Basically had well, with the exception that unfortunately, my father passed away. When I was
six months. I had a pretty poor upbringing and my mom was the strongest woman I have ever
meet my hero. I have five older brothers, a younger brother and one sister. That's basically it
Kay Carvajal Moran 02:05
How do you ended up here, Minnesota?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 02:07
I ended up here in Minnesota. After I worked for a hospital in Indiana, I lived in Gary Indiana
from like 1993 up until 2012. I worked at a hospital there was that employment ended I had an
option to go to Little Rock Arkansas. And, and my older brother one of my older brothers who's
a pastor here, you know, he used like, you'll know nobody in Arkansas why don’t you come
and check out Minnesota. And here I am.
Kay Carvajal Moran 02:55
Okay, do you have any like favorite hobbies or I don't know like,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 03:00
right now. I really do have a time for hobbies as an education support professional for the
Osseo school district as Zane wood Elementary School in addition, I also worked at Planet
Fitness. In addition also either work security or guest services at US Bank Stadium or Target
Center and I also have a husband who's in a nursing home so basically you can say my hobby is
trying to spend as much time with my husband as possible.
Kay Carvajal Moran 03:45
till you're a busy woman. Hmm.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 03:47
Pretty much
Kay Carvajal Moran 03:48
three jobs. Yeah, wow. Okay, well, there are going to be three parts of the interview. So I'm
going to be asking you questions about Augsburg and before COVID. So this part is going to be
about just pre COVID. So can you state the position that you hold that Augsburg in how long
were you in that position?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 04:16
Okay, so I was employed here at Augsburg from February 2018. I left in June of 2021. And then
came back in January 2022. and left again in January 2023.
Kay Carvajal Moran 04:41
Can you tell me how you came across Augsburg? Why? Why work here at Augsburg?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 04:47
Well you know what the thing is? I would always pass by Augsburg when I was working at
Fairview the hospital up here. And so it was Augsburg College at the time. And while pursuing
my human services degree at Minneapolis College, Minneapolis Community and Technical
College I had the unfortunate event of doing my final semester, I had to do an internship. And
my current supervisor was out on maternity leave, and her supervisor cut my hours and we're
talking like $300 of pay so I happen to see that Augsburg was hiring and I applied and was
invited to interview and interview with Charmaine Murphy, Michelle Neice, who unfortunately
passed away ended up in a position that I mean, I Augsburg lovely place to work. You know, but
you know, I have two college degrees and you know, I had potential to do other things and
wanting to explore other things.
Kay Carvajal Moran 06:22
Gotcha. Well, I mean, you, you, you touch to the question that I want to go to, which is can you
tell me about or, can you describe the culture at Augsburg as a
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 06:35
Well Augsburg is awesome culture. While, here, I mean, I made so many I built so many
relationships, not just with my co workers, but with students as well. And it's wonderful, you
know, you have to be approachable. You have to talk to people. I mean, you can't Well, I guess
that's just my nature in the way my mom taught us, you know, to be approachable.
Kay Carvajal Moran 06:38
Yeah. So your position at Augsburg that you got what was it again? I was a custodian custodian,
gotcha, custodian. Okay. Well, in that case, talking more about the relationships just you I met
you and you are very social person. But can you describe like further the relationship between
like, like the first relationship being like, custodian to faculty, then custodian to students and
then custodian to staff? All of the like, I mean, you talk about it being positive, but I don't know.
Has it ever been? I don't know. There were
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 07:43
times when it was challenging. Yeah. But, you know, I try not to dwell on that. No, there was
some challenges with coworkers never was student Well, you know, students in a sense, so you
know, there were certain places there was supposed to be closed at certain times. And, you
know, there were certain places there was supposed to be closed at certain times. And, you
know, I just had to let them know, or challenges where, you know, it's like, you feel like being a
custodian I felt like being a custodian was a thankless job because there were times where I
would have to clean spaces where it's the way it was left. You know, me having been in the
janitorial custodial field for over 15 years. You know, sometimes you get the feel, you start to
feel like people leave stuff a mess because they don't have to clean it up. If they had to do their
job, they'd be more mindful of how they're leaving these spaces. And I feel like I felt like
administration, you know, should do something to hold these students accountable. You know,
because we're, Without being held accountable that just lead to safe spaces. Oh, you know,
messed up over and over again. And there were times when I did the library, and they will
leave the study rooms just looking atrocious. I know you would leave your house around like
that. Why would you leave another space stuff like that? Come on. Seriously now? Yeah.
Kay Carvajal Moran 09:33
Okay, perfect. So that was kind of, it seems like there was more like a I wouldn't say negative
but like that kind of relationship with students was like,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 09:46
Well, I will positive relationship with students because you know, what? I'm there with students,
you know. They would clean up after themselves. And I will make it a point to thank them for
because it's appreciated. But you want a nice place to study. You want a clean environment.
You have to contribute today. You know, yeah, I'm gonna clean it up and I'm gonna go home,
you know. So, I mean, ownership is just part of ownership should be everybody's responsibility.
Kay Carvajal Moran 10:24
Yeah, for sure. So Pre-COVID. Can you describe your work schedule at Augsburg? So for
example, as a custodian with tasks that you need to get done or just your daily duties,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 10:41
Pre-COVID. At the time, I'm in addition to be an employee here at Augsburg. I was also a
security manager at Lucy Laney Elementary School in North Minneapolis. You know, I had a
daily routine. Pre COVID I'm trying to remember because I've done so many areas here. Yes.
Pre-COVID what was my? I'm thinking that I was doing the third floor of the Hagfors building
and then, everybody had to rebuild it. And that was like, coming into 20. So I had not started. I
was supposed to go to midnight overnights during the library, but due to the unfortunate event
of my husband becoming ill, I ended up having to take a leave of absence and bartack. I think I
was off up until maybe I was off leave in January. I think I came back in like April. And by that
time, you know, the pandemic was like full blown. Yeah, there was the shutdown, which was
kind of a heartbreaking time because at that time my husband was in the hospital. He had had
his leg amputated. I was only able to go and take him food and drop it off. Which is hard
because my husband and I had been together for since like 1993. We lived together for a
number of years in Gary, Indiana, and he came to Minnesota to marry me. And we really didn't
get a chance to have the marriage you know, the marriage that people you know want to
cultivate because of the illness and then him being diagnosed with dementia he was sent to a
nursing home. You know, and the thing is, marriage vows say to death do us part not till it's no
longer convenient. So, you know, by him having came from Indiana to marry me, I felt it was
my duty, you know, not just as a wife but as a friend. And as someone who care to let them
know that I would never abandon him.
Kay Carvajal Moran 13:51
And like I said Dorris like if you know you have like we can take a pause as well. PAUSE So,
Doris, you said that after that leave of absence you came back to Augsburg and so that was
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 14:44
That was while you know, when I came back every was like basically everything had been shut
down. You know, there was like, no, practices put in place. And you know, okay, at that time,
when I, when I came back, I was doing the library. A, you know, the funny part about that was
that, like before I left before the leave of absence and everything. The library was split to two
people during the library. However, when I came back off to leave absence, I was doing all four
floors. I was kind of perturbed about that. But you know what, it wasn’t so bad. Because
basically it was shut down. It was like a ghost town! Really! If you think about it, you know,
seeing Augsburg before COVID You know, full bloom and everybody's everywhere. It's social.
And seeing Oh, Augsburg door. Dewar COVID was just crazy. It was like I said it felt like a ghost
town. You know, there was some areas where he was like, What is this? Is it just a pandemic
over here and not over here? Yeah, but, you know, it was and then everybody was just like,
hypersensitive, okay. Wear your mask, is PvE Okay, gotcha. They had us go through like our
areas and, you know, we will have to put dates of sanitation, dates we did these rooms. And if
those spaces were used, the person that used them will have to take the notice off. We've had
you know, they have to let us know, so we could go back here sanitize that area, put a new
load up. That went that went for dorms and then they are they I think they had one of the
buildings was used as a quarantine area. Yeah. And you know, the way it was done was kind of
make you kind of scratch your head because, you know, here, they tell you on the news. If you
fly if you test positive for COVID you quarantine in place, but then they had us they had
students moving from the dorm to this other space.
Kay Carvajal Moran 17:27
I heard about the Yeah.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 17:29
You know it was like Okay. And contaminate everything along the way. You know, and that was
the consensus
Kay Carvajal Moran 17:39
Kay Carvajal Moran 17:39
Wait where would they put students to do you remember
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 17:42
it was the OGC
Kay Carvajal Moran 17:43
Oh, okay. Yeah, yeah. I remember now.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 17:46
And I remember being called a couple of times, and we're supposed to walk behind these
people sanitizing and everything they touch. Are you serious?
Kay Carvajal Moran 17:56
Oh, wow. Really?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 17:57
Was crazy. So I think at the time, you know, it was kind of scary because, you know, we were
hearing news reports of people actually dying. And then you know what, another thing that kind
of made it scary was the whole George Floyd thing. You know, because I remember coming to
work. The day the riot started.
Kay Carvajal Moran 18:28
Yeah.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 18:29
And my supervisor was telling me that they hit that the police had killed this land. Okay. And I
thought she said in Chicago, not on Chicago Avenue. And I'm watching this. I saw the video.
This man is literally begging for his life or this police officer is kneeling on his neck with his
hand in his pocket. Like he's posing for a picture in a magazine. And then I remember being in
the library when the riots first began, because I'm kind of following it. Yeah. You know, and
when when the looting first started, and then I found out that Metro Transit had shut down all
the service. Now I live in Brooklyn Park. And I call my supervisor look, I need to find a way to
get home. There's no bus service at all. Nowhere. Yeah. You know, so that and COVID and then
you know, like I said the thing with the police and then you had outside instigators Here on
campus? No, no, no. I remember, I remember. Go. I did not know how close in proximity
because we're the third precinct and it's not very far from here.
Kay Carvajal Moran 20:03
No, it's really, really close.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 20:04
In fact, a couple of months after all right. I ended up working about two blocks because I
worked at Volunteers of America, which is a reentry home.
Kay Carvajal Moran 20:16
Gotcha.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 20:17
For offenders. It was so eerie. Just seeing everything that was going on. And all it is during the
pandemic. It’s a pandemic but y'all looting stores, you know, and I'm sorry. My people
suffer for lack of knowledge. You know, it I think at this time, people were called people of
color. Were just fed up. Yeah. And it was not just here in, Minnesota, Minneapolis. It was like
Kay Carvajal Moran 20:47
Nationwide.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 20:48
Yeah, the shot heard around the world, because it was worldwide. Even people in other
countries. Were like were tried of this too. I mean, a pandemic on top of social injustice. Yeah.
Who would have thought? Who would have thought it? I look forward to read the history books.
Only I hope it’s just, not just history.
Kay Carvajal Moran 21:16
Yeah, I agree. I think that's why I don't know just even the importance of like doing these like
interviews, you know, because I was only going to talk about the pandemic but I you know,
that's so true. The pandemic went hand in hand with the, with the uprisings and like,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 21:32
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 21:32
everything just kind of, you know, what are called 2020 screwed you year because my husband
got sick. The pandemic happened, the George Floyd thing happened, you know? And it was just
like, the one year everything happened all at the same time. But back to being a custodian
here at Augsburg during the pandemic. It was weird because the campus wasn't in full swing
like it was. You know, I was, you know, I you know, coming here in late 2018. You know, you
see and stuff going on their events, you know, those like just you know, it was just weird.
Kay Carvajal Moran 22:28
Yeah. Like seeing Augsburg be like a social butterfly to like, where are the people?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 22:35
It was Augsburg in in the cocoon.
Kay Carvajal Moran 22:40
Well, I do want to touch on a question about the work you've mentioned about your workload,
like doubling or in matter of fact, like quadrupling, I I've heard that from other custodians,
where they talked about like this change of environment of Augsburg and how like on the
custodian side, the number of of custodians got reduced, and I don't know about the pay like if
that got reduced but it was just talking they just talked about how like hey, like our peers like
we have a fewer less peers like helping us with this work, you know, and like, was that the
same?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 23:23
Like I said, there were times when I was asked to cover all this stuff. And, um, you know, like I
said, I did Oh, I did have to backtrack a little bit. Because I went from doing Hagfors to doing
the cafeteria. And then I went on the leave of absence, and came back and was doing the
whole library like I said before I went on leave of absence. The library was split between two
people. When I came off the leave of absence and was doing the library I had all four floors. I
didn't think it was fair. But because of the the library wasn't as busy as it was before, you know,
and so the consensus is, you know, the workloads. You know, like I said, I was doing a whole
build and by some of my peers had one floor of one building to do, yeah. And then to be asked
to go and do something else in addition, girl, I’m doing four floors, geez. But, I mean, you
know what, Augsburg is a workplace. You know, I would recommend, as I did, my brother now
works here. Yeah. It's a it's an awesome place to work. That you know, as with any job they're
gonna be, they're going to be things that need improvement you know, but up they're gonna
live up to change you want to say, for
Kay Carvajal Moran 25:27
Sure. I wanted to touch back about the procedures. I know that you mentioned that there was a
time where you would follow the student and like if they had COVID, like, spray everything that
time where you would follow the student and like if they had COVID, like, spray everything that
they would touch, you know, I was just curious about like, were there any other procedures or
like I'm curious about the students that live like on campus, because the commuters you know,
that kind of took that portion out of the students off campus, but
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 25:56
Okay, so the day with the students on campus, it was like, everybody, well Ima put it this way.
Everybody was supposed to be masked up. You know, social distancing. There were times when
I didn't see no social distancing. Was that when people were so close if you wonder where one
person ended, another began but overall, the policies that were in that were implemented. I
saw no mainly most people following them. They were but like I said, it may feel like a scary
time because I don't know Well, I worked in the hospital during the thing where they had the
swine flu and they had Ebola. And this this, this was really much more than that. Because, you
know, um, just the fact that you know, you had people going into hospitals dying. Yeah. You
know, which was one thing with my husband, um, during the lockdown, my husband's birthday
is May 7. I had him a cake baked when I took it to the nursing home. They would only let me
cut on my slicer his cake out. There would not let me I brought him birthday gifts. They had to
be in quarantine. Before they gave them to him. So I mean, it was a scary time. But, you know,
I mean, as a as a department, you know, to the custodial department. We banded together and
did what we had to do to make a safe, sanitized environment for the community.
Kay Carvajal Moran 28:02
You talk about well, you were, you're talking about how you are very impacted. By COVID, your
family just anyone your community during COVID with the uprisings. I want to know if you were
how where you felt supported by Augsburg Pre-COVID
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 28:23
You know what Augsburg, wow, they did give the custodians a lot of props. They, they they
they made sure we knew that they were grateful. And I think that that was one thing. That
resonates with me about working for Augsburg. The supervisory staff, you know, never failed to
let us know we appreciate it. The managerial staff, even President Pribbenow
Kay Carvajal Moran 29:06
Yeah,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 29:07
They all made sure that we knew we were appreciated. And they wanted to keep us protected
as well.
Kay Carvajal Moran 29:15
That's good. Um, was that also before COVID?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 29:18
Yeah. Oh, yeah. Charmaine. She's one of the most inspiring. I mean, you could wake up having
a bad day and run into her. And there's some better that will brighten your day. You know,
because she had this just positive we can do this attitude. Oscar, you know very helpful. In fact,
the supervisors, you know, you could let them know there was something that was needed and
even if they couldn't get to it right away. They made sure you knew that they were on it.
Kay Carvajal Moran 30:03
Well, I'm glad that you felt and you were supported like pre-COVID, during COVID. What about
post COVID? Well, quotation mark, post COVID
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 30:13
COVID. keep reviving. Yeah. COVID Keeping reinventing itself. Post COVID. You know, that
they management and you know, let us know, as things were changing and whatnot. Um, I've
always felt supported by you know HR management team. Me and Oscar had our issues for a
bit but you know, this like this, you never know what the next person is going through it all. So,
you know, sometimes you just have to give pause and extend grace
Kay Carvajal Moran 31:06
Do you felt supported in regards to like the benefits that Augsburg offered like will you take
time off like was that?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 31:15
Well, you know, what? I Can’t say I felt supported because with my husband's illness came
up lots of times where I had to call in, stuff would happen. And you know, I reached out to HR
and let them know that this is what's happening. You know, and they were very supportive.
They were extremely supportive. Back in January, no, December, between November and
December. My husband was diagnosed with prostate cancer and I let HR know, and, you know,
they gave me to pay for work. And even though I don't take our had, you know, I have just
come back. And this is the one thing that was kind of crazy to me. When I first interview to
return, I was told that because I hadn't been gone a year, my seniority was still intact. And then
later on down the line, I found out that they had it was like starting all over. No, and that's a big
difference to go from what was four years. Are we back down to starting over. I was kind of
perturbed and felt that was unfair, but it is what it is.
Kay Carvajal Moran 32:58
Thank you for sharing that. I guess going back to the personnel or actually Post-COVID. We're
gonna go Post-COVID I know that students and our staff they were taking classes online, and
then, uh, once Post-COVID You know, like, once everybody's everything started like, you know,
like settling down, you know, or like,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 33:27
Staring to go back to normal.
Kay Carvajal Moran 33:28
Yeah, exactly. We started slowly going back on campus. What the like that that that that like
the workload increase. For custodians are like?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 33:42
I think it might have because, you know, going back to what was normal, we still had to prepare
for it. But it was also a sigh of relief. But then you got to ask yourself we've been through so
much what's normal or not know, you don't know what's normal. You know, because, you know,
we had the even you know, with the COVID and the uprising then in the trials. Yeah, we're all
downtown barricaded. You know, you just had this eerie feeling and like what's gonna happen?
Next? But, um, I was well basically, for me, I don't feel like the workload increase. Yeah. It was
just, it is what it is.
Kay Carvajal Moran 34:50
So, Post-COVID as well. You give a lot of props to your managers, supervisors. And yeah.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 35:00
In addition I mean, it was like, their continue appreciation of us. That's what kept us together.
kept this thing together. Yeah, you know, um, it helped a lot. They, you know, they
acknowledged us
Kay Carvajal Moran 35:22
I do want to say that, and that's great, like, giving your credit and acknowledging y'all, but it's
very different to keeping y'all safe. The y'all as a custodian. Do you think that Augsburg kept
custodian safe?
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 35:39
Dorris Carter-Murray 35:39
As far as you know, what they made available to us, you know, vaccines were available. In
addition, they kept us updated. On the Record, you know, the mask and PPE requirements in
addition to you know, the one thing I just wondered about was the whole policy of transferring
students that were tested COVID positive to another building. Like I say, my, my thought was
that they you were supposed to quarantine and place.
Kay Carvajal Moran 36:23
Well, now I'm gonna switch it back to the personnel. I know that you mentioned your husband.
But in just like, I guess, personnel and like feel free to say no to answer these questions as well.
But how they impact how they COVID impact you or your family either in a positive or a
negative way? Yeah, for sure. I know that. Yeah. COVID had, like many, many different impacts
for different people, you know, like some were like spiritual some were more negative than
positive, you know. So, yeah, just I don't know. I think that
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 36:45
Well in a negative way, you know, like I said, with the lockdown I was able to see my husband
and you just like me and my husband from 1993 to he got sick my husband went into the
hospital January 14 and hasn't been home. Before that we live together and me and my
husband we just enjoyed each other's company. My husband loves to cook. I do have a date
night would be he cook I play some music. He loves Mila highlight. I have we had drinks and
listen to music together watch movies together. On Saturday mornings consisted of I cooked
breakfast. He loved Westerners. We sit up and watch Bonanza all the Westerners together. So
when COVID happened and he was in a facility it impact, it had a bad impact on my family like,
in fact no, I think I went through about a depression because here I am. You know, it was like
me and my husband first started living together in Indiana. You know, he made a home for me.
So I moved here before he did so. By the time we got married. I had an apartment here to
furnish just wanted to make a home for my husband. I don't think there was any type of good
impact that COVID COVID had. Other than you know, it made me more conscious of trusting
God Yeah, I know made me more prayerful. You know, one good thing of the impact that COVID
had on me it made me value my marriage and my commitment to my husband because during
the lockdown, even though I couldn't see him, I was determined to get up and take him that
meal every Friday. Get up and make sure I went to see him even if I could only have a window
visit. You know, because, you know, I've seen you know, you know people in the nursing facility
that didn't have visitors. And that's got to be really, really long. Yeah. I'm hoping that, you
know, my husband, you know, he's a dementia patient. So and that means this illness affects
his short term memory. He could tell me any and everything that happened way back when any
song I play any oldie but goodie song I play. He can sing it. Tell me the name. Tell me who
wrote it. But he couldn't tell me what he had for breakfast this morning. So I mean, when no
positive impact COVID had on me. It's just to it made me bring my A game when it came to my
marriage for sure. You know, as far as commitment it made me to rely more on God. Because
had it not been forgotten. I don't think I would have made it out. I'd probably been suicidal.
Kay Carvajal Moran 40:57
Yeah. Well, with that being said Dorris I think those are all my questions. First of all, I want to
thank you and all the custodians because honestly, it was y'all that kept us safe. Students,
thank you and all the custodians because honestly, it was y'all that kept us safe. Students,
staff, faculty, you know, and really had it down for Augsburg, so I think y'all deserve flowers a
raise, bonus you know all your hard work. So thank you Dorris like I like I love custodians, you
know, it's a job that doesn't get recognized. You know, there was a there was a time in COVID
where there was like, oh, yeah, essential workers. That conversation is kind lost.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 41:51
squirrely, don't do it and I cracked up at this because, you know, there were people they didn't
work didn't burn pay no bills or none, but we'll get an extra extra extra money from from the
government. And those of us that work our kisters off because we held mthese essential jobs.
Yeah. Thank you, Governor Walz for the whole $750 but you had people getting 600 on top of
unemployment? Yeah. I know. I was a building manager for for a apartment complex. There
were people that weren't even affected by COVID They was getting rent help. That was on
1000s of dollars behind in rent. But hey, pit bulls living with ‘em. If you can't pay your rent,
why? You got a pit bull! I’m just saying. But Oh, well. We live each day in one day at a time
just it is what it is.
Kay Carvajal Moran 43:05
Well, with that being said, Is there any those are all my questions like I said, Is there anything
else that you want to share, get off your chest. Again, this is going to be the in an archive and
it's going to be is basically part of history, you know, just by you doing this oral history you're
telling one narrative, a custodian narrative you know,
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 43:29
I just want to say Augsburg was a wonderful place to work. If given the chance, I'd like to come
back in a different capacity, possibly public safety. I was Campus Safety Officer at MCAD in
Minneapolis College Art and Design. I need to get my driver's license and we'll have a
discussion. It'd be like the third time's a charm.
Kay Carvajal Moran 43:58
Yes, it is.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 43:59
All right, love you Augsburg.
Kay Carvajal Moran 44:01
Thank you, Doris. With that being said, thank you for your time. This concludes this oral history.
D
Dorris Carter-Murray 44:08
All right.
44:13
Show less
Oral History with Benjawan "Benji"
Jearanaivitthayakul (2022)
3/29/2022 • 38:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, people, patient, community, dialysis, sex trafficking, clark, problem, life, helped,
concepts, feel, educate, project, understand, thought, experience, receive, immerse
SPEAKERS... Show more
Oral History with Benjawan "Benji"
Jearanaivitthayakul (2022)
3/29/2022 • 38:14
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
Augsburg, nurse, people, patient, community, dialysis, sex trafficking, clark, problem, life, helped,
concepts, feel, educate, project, understand, thought, experience, receive, immerse
SPEAKERS
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul, Elaine Eschenbacher
Elaine Eschenbacher 00:07
Thank you for joining me today, Benji for this oral history project with Augsburg University and the
Kettering Foundation. We're exploring the concept of the citizen professional in higher education. My
name is Elaine Eschenbacher, I'm the assistant provost for experiential learning and meaningful work
at Augsburg and I'm partnering with Dr. Katie Clark on this project. Could you please introduce yourself
for the recording?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 00:35
Hi, my name is Benji. So I am a nursing student of DNP FNP program at Augsburg I am in the second
year like a middle of the road. So right now I'm working at inpatient dialysis at Mayo Clinic hospital.
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:00
Before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and having an audio
recording of this interview stored at Augsburg University and it could be made available to the public.
Do you consent to that?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 01:13
Yes
Elaine Eschenbacher 01:14
Thank you. Um, okay, so we'll start out, could you just tell me a little bit about your education
background, and what you're currently studying at Augsburg.
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 01:26
So my current I mean, my education background is I received undergrad nursing degree at Century
College. And then I went to RN BSN online at Western Governor. And then I went back, and then I
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went back to the college a couple years ago to get FNP DNP program. So, right now I am in the FNP
DNP program at Augsburg. So I am in the second year.
Elaine Eschenbacher 02:07
Before you came to Augsburg, how did you view yourself as a nurse in relationship to being engaged in
community.
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 02:16
So when I did undergrad at Century College, so we did some kind of immersion to we did some kind of
project with preschool and also, you know, order adults in the nursing home. That was, like a small
group project to spend a day with them. And some time we do some project by teaching them like a
hand washing in the preschool. So that's kind of like something that I did with community and know
about, you know, spending time with community and spending time with the public. So it really helped
me to see how how nurse related you know, we always educate people, just you know, like, from you
know, from since they are young since they are older. And when I, when I become a nurse, I spend
most of my day with their friend, you know, lifespan, even though I do dialysis, mostly for adults, but
sometimes I have children and babies that require dialysis as well. So I can see, like from the baby to
adult age, like up to 90, over 90. And, but when I did RN, BSN online at Western Governor, it was quite
different. I think the only one course that I get to spend a lot of time with the topic was like a capstone
that I have to do to finish my clinical hours. So I have to in that time, I did like diabetes, prevention of
diabetes. So I just go to a different daycares. And different, what do they call like a nursing home and
collect the information and educate those population about how to prevent diabetes. So, and then when
I came to Augsburg, I feel like you know, especially last semester that we did that we took the course,
Making Room at the Table, with Dr. Clark. She had us to do the field trip. So we went to Breaking Free
and the speaker was really amazing. She spoke to her experience about how she become, you know,
like, a victim, and how she get out of the life. And now she is helping other girl to get out of the life. And
I just feel like that is so powerful. I mean, I have never been that kind of, you know, like experience that
kind of situation to learn from people who were the victim, because it's not easy to get to go there to get
to experience with them. And unless you know somebody, or they really open to do it for you. So I just
think that it really stick with me. And also that project made me do like a final project about sex
trafficking. That helped me like dig a little bit deeper about community about how people we are
uneducated, about sex trafficking in the United States. Because I grew up in a foreign country. So
especially in Thailand, we consider like, you know, third world country, so I understand that why people
over there, why do they sell young girls to be prostitute? Because, you know, social circumstances
because, you know, maybe they don't have enough food to put on the table, or money is so hard for
them to earn. And also, you know, like, women, we don't have a lot of education. So I can see the
perception from that. And I would assume that, you know, like, in the United States, we have, you
know, we are developed country, we grow economic really good. So, I would assume that, you know,
like, sex trafficking would not be the first, you know, like, top priority of this country. But then after I went
to a Breaking Free, and I started to do more research, and they found that, oh, my gosh, it's really eye
opening that, you know, this country has a lot of problem with sex trafficking. And I think, in you know,
especially in Minnesota, I think, is one of the top 10 states that have the most, you know, minors sex
trafficking, and I was shocked. And I thought like, we are so liberal, because I live in the small town in
Rochester, and I did not see that kind of experience much. You know, even, you know, because it's like
-2-
a quiet town. But then, you know, when I think about it, when I go to the city, I can see, you know, the
difference, you know, and the variety, and I can see why sex trafficking can be a problem in Minnesota.
Elaine Eschenbacher 08:11
You touched on some of this already, but I'm going to ask the question anyway, you might have
different things to say. How has your view of the role of a nurse changed since studying at Augsburg?
Or has it changed? And if so, how?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 08:28
So I started to look at more like, you know, what is the problem in our community? And how can I
support them? And how can I help them? How can I get local, I think when one of the documentary that
Dr. Clark assigned us to watch, I think it's called Poverty Inc. So, that documentary is you know, like
reflecting about, you know, NGOs. How NGOs helped poor country, you know, like, we donate a lot of
money to poor country, right. And we thought we we are helping them but really in that documentary, it
really made me understand that you know, all the money that we donate, maybe we do not generate
the help over there. We just give, give the product so now they are getting used to receiving but not
thinking about how they can you know making the product themselves or how can I how can they start
the business and sometimes it difficult for the local to start a business because the NGO just give
everything for free? How how do local start a business and charge for $10 when another people can
get it for free? Right? That is eye opening for me. Because I used to see, you know, like, when NGO
trying to collect money, and I used to be like giving them money to that. And it's just now like, I just
have to read about like, what kind of, you know, policy? How do they, you know, give money? Or how
do they find money to those country, and now I just started to donate more money for local community.
So if I, if I donate something, I would like to help local people. So then, you know, like I said, then I feel
like, I do the good thing, because I help local people here. That they receive that money, or they use
that money to help the local people.
Elaine Eschenbacher 10:50
I'm going to give you a list of concepts or any of these concepts, citizen professional or citizen nurse
civic engagement or civic skills. Were those discussed in your classes that you've had so far at
Augsburg? And if so, which ones do you remember?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 11:08
Well, I think they almost all discussed but what I remember is about civic nurses and civic skills. I
remember Dr. Clark invited Dr. Ruth Enestvedt, and then she gave a presentation, and she gave us a
lot of example, about how we can be a civic nurse, how we have civic skills for the citizen nurse. And I
think one of the skills is that we have to, you know, like, reaching out the community, explore the
community. And this is the skill that, you know, I didn't, you know, I didn't realize that. Yeah, we always
think about other things outside of us. But then why don't we think, why don't we start from our
community first. So for example, when I did the final project, I started to dig deeper about sex trafficking
in my community. And I even interview my nurses, you know, like, in my unit. I was shocked that, you
know, the two nurses that I interviewed, they have no idea that we have a lot of sex trafficking in
Minnesota, they have no idea how to effect you know, the victims. And I just thought, Oh, interesting,
you know, like, because this nurses has been nurse for a while, like, at least three year, but they don't
-3-
even know that we have this kind of problem. They assume the same thing as I did that, you know, sex
trafficking is in undeveloped country. So it's not happening in the Minnesota. So I just educate them
about here, what I found out about my research, and you know, and I told them about Breaking Free
and they were like, what? really? did they really happening? And you know, when city I said, Well, you
know what, what I find out that you know, people who have money normally they don't shop for sex
trafficking around the local. So normally they would they would travel. Because people here they have
money, right? So do we have a lot of Doctor, people who have higher salary, so they just drive up to the
city and use the service. So in the research it said, normally, you know, like, middle aged men, they are
the buyer and they have like power they and they shopping around it's just go up drive up for 60 to 70
mile to do to get sex and I just calculated, Rochester and Twin Cities is about 70 mile. And then I
started to dig deeper in about my hospital. How did they educate nurses about sex trafficking at all? So
I just realized that they did have a policy to educate nurses about sex trafficking, However, it's more,
you know, towards emergency, you know, to the ER nurse, rather than the floor nurse. And I think floor
nurse are the person that they should be educated to because they are the person that can spot them,
right? Sometime, you know, like victims, they get hurt or they get injury and they have to stay at the
hospital for a while. And those floor nurses should have knowledge to spot them because they are the
person who spent a day with them.
Elaine Eschenbacher 15:04
It's interesting how you don't see it until somebody opens your eyes and then you can't not see it. Can
you tell me a little bit about what experiences you've had in the classroom, what kind of pedagogical
practices or coursework that really helped you gain an understanding of the role of the citizen
professional or the citizen nurse?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 15:34
I think Making Room at the Table, give me really, Dr. Clark have a lot of exercise to have us think about
how to be a citizen nurse. So we read the books, and also we did the final project about you know,
people should have to choose one of the projects that they are interested, and, you know, dig deeper
about, you know, your community, and reading the book that related to your topics. And reading the
book that related to the sex trafficking. Dr. Clark gave me one book is called Girls Like Us. So I read the
book, and I was, I was so shocked about many story, in the book. Like how government funding, you
know, lack of resources to help the victims, even some programs, it's just lack of resources. Most of the
program will require that the victim have to, you know, have to be some type of like a drug addict, have
some kind of involved with a drug problem. And I think I remember one of the girls, she did not have a
drug problem, but she wanted to get out of the life. So then she did not qualify for this program. So it's
just eye opening. For me, it's like, you want to help them, but there is no program to fit her. And you
know, what she did she just disappear from the safe house for a while, half a day. And then when she
came back, she and now excitedly said that I have smoke crack. So now I'm eligible for the drug
program that I can get out of the life. And that was eye opening for me that, you know, like many
programs do not fit everybody. And if some people, they don't fit to that requirement, they don't get
help.
Elaine Eschenbacher 18:07
-4-
Do you feel better equipped to lead change either inside or outside of healthcare institutions? Because
of your educational experiences at Augsburg? And if so, how?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 18:23
So I think I can so because I just feel like, you know, Augsburg, really give me the kind of, you know,
critical thinking, to apply the skills that I have, you know, like, to, to start from, you know, from the local,
and see what I see as a problem. And now, when we see as the problem, and how, how do we fix the
problem. And who, like a stake holder that we need to contact. And how do we reach the support from
other local community, and trying to get their attention and bring that problem to them, so then they can
be aware. And I think, you know, if we started from there, we can gain knowledge, and also we can
gain solution. I mean, I'm a little people, but I think with little people, and if we can get support from the
local, we can make a change.
Elaine Eschenbacher 19:38
So thinking back, and I know you're right in the middle of it, but thinking back on your time at Augsburg
so far, what could have helped you better understand civic skills or these concepts that we've already
highlighted in this interview? So what could have helped you better understand them? And what
concepts or issues were most challenging to understand?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 20:02
I would like to have more like, you know, experienced field trip. Yeah. So, and I know, it has been two
years that we have, you know, COVID. And we kind of like limits about, you know, like field trip and
going to immerse ourselves to that kind of experience with the local community. When you know, some
community, they even close temporarily, they don't accept you to visit. And you know, I hope that in the
future, we can have more, you know, field trip, and immerse your community more, so then we can
know what the problem is. And then after, you know, we visit, the community is really nice to just brief
discuss about, like a brainstorm about, what did you learn about community today? And how do you
think we can be how we can apply civic skills to this community? How can we improve our community
to be better?
Elaine Eschenbacher 21:18
Were there any concepts or issues that were raised in your classes that were more challenging or to
understand than others?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 21:36
For example, like a mental health issue, you know, as a nurse, when I see the patient, and, you know,
when they are in psychosis, you know, episode, I feel like I want to help them. And if you think about
our job to help them to get better, right. And, for example, you know, they're, you know, like people who
have schizophrenia, and when they are in the episode of schizophrenic, I just want to give them the
medication to help them calm down, and to feel better. But then, you know, some patient refused the
medications, because they just think, you know, they don't hear that voice anymore. And some people
did think that the voice was calming themselves down. And it's like, a soothing for them. But for me, it
seemed like it's hard to see them going through. It's just, it's an ethical issue. I think it's just, I think, you
know, it's hard to draw the line that what's your ideal, you know, I want to help them to get better, but
-5-
they refuse to receive the med, then. I think one of the assignment that Dr. Clark assigned to watch a
movie about a guy who went through like a psychotic episode and about that whole life. Do you
remember what the movie was? Oh, the movie names, The Soloist. So, that movie really eye opening
for me. And I think that movie just made me feel like now. Now I am the person who just watch, I'm not
the nurse. So I don't need to intervenes. And I just watch, you know, the patient going through and I just
watched him that, you know, they have autonomy to choose what they want to do with their life. They
can choose to be not to receive the medication. And thus it's okay to you know, as long as they don't
harm other people and they don't harm themself. I cannot force them to do anything that they don't
want to. I mean, it's hard to watch them in that episode. But then, you know, to be a civic nurse, you
have to understand that people have choices, and people have freedom to choose that choice.
Elaine Eschenbacher 25:03
Have any of the course concepts that we've been talking about impacted your current practice or
understanding of the profession of nursing?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 25:14
Yes. So talking about, respecting people choices about a goal of care, or, you know, there are some
time that people, you know, they get tired of dialysis, and they just refuse to receive dialysis. But then,
you know, like, the health care provider trying to manage them and not, you know, having them, you
know, have to go to code blue by having high potassium, so, asking them to do dialysis. And
sometimes people, you know, they just feel like they don't have a choice, or they are forced to do. So I
just, you know, if they are open to talk to me, and I would just address that to the healthcare provider to
their doctor, and maybe we need to have, like a care plan. We need to talk to the, you know, to the
patient and their family, and discuss the goal here, because, you know, he has the patient wishes, and
this is a provider wishes, and is doesn't match. So, we want to do the best for the patient, and the
patient is the person that we are, we are aiming for. So I think, you know, getting through this had really
helped me to think about, we need to respect people, we need to respect patient more. So we need to
value their decision, not just, you know, our perspective that we want to provide them quality of life by
keep doing diagnosis, or do whatever. But did you really ask them? Do they want to do it? Do they want
to go through it? It's just gave me that kind of perspective, like, ethical issue as well, that, you know, we
need to listen to both sides, and have the patient be the persons who pick, you know, the care that they
want, the care that they need the thing that served them the best.
Elaine Eschenbacher 27:42
So it sounds like you face that in your daily work all the time?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 27:47
You do? Yeah. And I just thought, you know, before I just thought, like, do we need to help them, you
know, get better. And you know, like, you know, get them out of the hospital have them a quality life.
But do we really, you know, ask them what they really want to do. Some patient you just saw them, I
can see them like they feel miserable. And why are they doing this? Is it for themselves? For their
family, or for what?
Elaine Eschenbacher 28:24
-6-
Which experiences that you've had at Augsburg so far stand out to you as meaningful opportunities to
learn and reflect and then integrate lessons across your coursework and community engaged learning.
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 28:40
So, I think, you know, like the coursework at Augsburg really made me think about volunteer at the
community. So, I know I want to go volunteer at Health Commons of inner city, but it's quite far of a
drive. But I do volunteer at the community down here when they have a free times. So I volunteer at the
food bank here as well. And I also volunteer at Good Samaritan Clinic to be a nurse there for quite
some time during, you know, when they have a school time off. So I just thought, you know, like a
helping community is a good way to serve our community.
Elaine Eschenbacher 29:39
I know you're only partway through your time at Augsburg, but so far, is there anything that you wish
you learned during your time here but haven't yet?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 29:54
I missed the opportunity to go to many field trip in my first year. So in my first year, like I signed up for
Amish community, because I want to learn about Amish. Because I think their lives so interesting. And I
did not know much about Amish community, even though I live close to Amish community here. But I
thought a sign up to spend time at Amish community would be a really good experience, but then the
trip was canceled. So I wish to learn about that. And I also, you know, like I signed up for civil rights trip
as well to learn about Dakota people. But it was canceled two years in a row. And I just, I feel like, I
missed those, you know, like, experience, and I'm not sure if this year they're gonna do it again or not.
But you know, this year, I have many classes that I have to take, and I may not be able to take time off
for that. Sometimes it's just time and the thing in our life, just not matching. So it was a bummer.
Elaine Eschenbacher 31:39
How has the pandemic changed your view of the profession of nursing?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 31:53
Wow, pandemics really make our job more challenging. Yeah, so if you think about it, like, at the first
year, when COVID just started, everybody scared to take care of the COVID patient, they're scared of
contracting COVID, and then bring the COVID back to their home. And, yeah, it's quite a, you know,
challenging for all of us. And also at work, we have to do a lot of precaution. I become like, I have to
clean nursing station on the computer every time before I make the badge in and before I use the
computer, because you never know who use that computer? And do they wash their hands? Yeah, I'd
become like, you know, have to clean up everything. And before I entered to the COVID patients, it's
just, you know, we have to wear ISO gown, we have to wear, you know, N95, and sometimes just feel
like it's just exhausting. Sometimes I just feel like I didn't want to be a nurse anymore, because it's just
so exhausting. And it just changed the way that you know, we learned about COVID. So, like I said, the
trip was cancel, so we didn't get the experience that we need to be doing. So we have to do more, you
know, online classes. And it's just some time, it's just your online class. It is nice. However, sometimes
it's nice to just immerse yourself to that kind of experience. Because just see it, smell it, experience it,
listen to it, and just be there. So then you understand a situation is not just from reading. I mean, I took,
-7-
like, learning about health disparity in Africa. And that class should be like a field trip in Africa, but I took
over online because, you know, in that year was COVID. So it does feel like it's a lot of reading the
book was good. But then it just feel like, Oh, I missed the experience to really go there. And, you know,
like really see how the people look like. Because, of course I was on the TV and it was on the
documentary, but it's not the same as being there yourself. I would want to say that how COVID change
everything. So but we have to adapt to it because obviously in that time we did not have much choices
rather than go online.
Elaine Eschenbacher 35:16
Do you feel like you have been able to have a voice in decision making in the constantly changing
landscape of healthcare? And if so, how? And if no, why not?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 35:28
Got it. So, sometimes I think I do, because sometimes I should bring up you know, like, some issue
with, you know, with the patient, especially like patient Co-op care. So, we need to be addressed, and
we need to have the doctor on board. So, I addressed that and, you know, like some doctor, sometime,
Doctor, you know, they agree. But sometime, we have some kind of conflict, about how some patient,
they have mental health as well, when they are on dialysis. And when they, you know, when they talk to
me, or when they discuss the goal of care with me, and they talk one thing, right, and then when we
bring it up, and we address, you know, with the healthcare provider, and then the healthcare provider
would say to me that, you know, because the patient has some kind of mental health, she is not
capable to make her own decision. So, it is quite challenging. So then who will be the person who make
decision for her. And it have to go by that person rather than her herself. So I just thought, you know,
like, sometimes it's more complicated than what I can do.
Elaine Eschenbacher 37:18
That was the last question, but I would just like to ask if there's anything else you'd like to share on any
of these topics?
Benjawen Jearanaivitthayakul 37:28
I can think of it right now. I think I have talking a lot.
Elaine Eschenbacher 37:38
Oh, it's great. It's great. Thank you. Well, I want to thank you so much for your time and your insight on
this. I know that you're busy and you've got a lot going on. And we really appreciate you contributing
and participating in this project.
-8-
Show less
Oral History with Noah Greenfield (2022)
Tue, 5/10 2:46PM
23:43
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic, professional, workplace, citizen, learned, guess, leadership, student, classes,
internships, civic leadership, disconnected, vocation, civic duty, studied, interviewed, thinking, hel... Show more
Oral History with Noah Greenfield (2022)
Tue, 5/10 2:46PM
23:43
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, people, civic, professional, workplace, citizen, learned, guess, leadership, student, classes,
internships, civic leadership, disconnected, vocation, civic duty, studied, interviewed, thinking, helped
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Noah Greenfield
Katie Clark 00:02
All right, so thank you for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and
the Kettering Foundation, exploring the concept of the civic professional in higher ed. My name
is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and executive director of the Augsburg
Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
N
Noah Greenfield 00:23
All right. Hi, I am Noah Greenfield.
Katie Clark 00:27
Great. So and before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you consent to being
interviewed and having that interviewed stored at Augsburg University, which we which will be
made available to the public.
N
Noah Greenfield 00:40
I consent to be to being recorded. Yes.
Katie Clark 00:44
Wonderful. So when did you or when will you graduate from Augsburg?
N
Noah Greenfield 00:51
I graduated from Augsburg in December of 2019.
I graduated from Augsburg in December of 2019.
Katie Clark 00:56
know can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you studied while
you were at Augsburg?
N
Noah Greenfield 01:05
Yes, I studied a couple different things while at Augsburg. I majored in public policy. So I took a
lot of political science classes and some sociology classes. And then I minored in, it was a really
cool thing, the leadership studies minor, which was brand new the first year I ever got there.
And so I was kind of a guinea pig for the program. And so we had specifically leadership
courses, and then some electives for the course that were communication classes, getting
sociology classes, things like that. Yeah, that's kind of what I started to Augsburg, formally, and
then informally through student groups and programs, lots of lots of other things as well, like
government and citizenship and civic duty stuff like that. Yeah.
Katie Clark 02:01
Great. So thinking back at your time at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional
civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills discussed in your classes or programs you're
involved with? And if so, which ones if you remember,
N
Noah Greenfield 02:19
I would say, I studied political science and really, really did not talk about civic life very much
and civic duty, civic engagement. Pretty much at all. I know my leadership studies class did,
just from what we studied, was the social change model of leadership. So in that, under that
was, you know, civil discourse we talked about in their citizenship was one of the main courses
on how to be a citizen in society. So that would be my leadership studies courses, probably the
only ones that talked about that.
Katie Clark 03:01
Were you in any internships or student groups outside of your courses or classes?
N
Noah Greenfield 03:10
Yes, yeah, I did a lot of internships. I interned with CTUL (Centro de Trabajadores Unidos En La
Lucha), which is a center for workers united struggle, worked there for about two years with
their developmental director, like writing grants and fundraising, programming and stuff like
that. And then I worked for the Humanist Society. I work for a couple of doctorate students
working on, like meaning how people find meaning in life, who are not religious. That was like,
super cool. And then I did a HECUA (Higher Education Consortium for Urban Affairs) internship
with the Homeless Coalition, I kind of worked with the policy director there and doing research
for her trying to figure out data about kids who are homeless on the streets, stuff like that. And
then a couple groups, student government, I was highly active in for about three years. That
was wonderful. I like that a lot. And then, just a couple of like, the Cedar Commons, I guess, at
Augsburg University had stuff every week or you could just kind of go to and talk with people
about certain topics religion, communication, things like that civic duty, civic life, though, kind
of spoke to you every week as well. But yeah, it was very busy, busy at Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 04:44
So what are you doing now?
N
Noah Greenfield 04:50
Right now I work at a smaller nonprofit called the alternatives for people with autism. We take
care of adults who have severe autism. As well as some form of like, of mental retardation. And
I'm like the, like the apartment manager over there. So I just oversee around like six or seven
employees and we take care of four people. So yeah, that's what I do now.
Katie Clark 05:20
Okay, which experiences if any standout as meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and
integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning? This is back to your
Augsburg time, describe those experiences. And it's okay if they were disconnected, because
some students they were so that's totally fine. We're looking to find those holes if there are
some.
N
Noah Greenfield 05:51
At Augsburg, I would say that they were fairly disconnected. I think on student government,
they were fairly connected. Just with the small group of people that we had in student
government that were passionate about it. I would say that there was there was some
collections with that as well, just with people being like, elected representatives on the student
body and acting out being an elected representative of somebody while in their daily life at
Augsburg, so they weren't to disconnect in a way, they were, you know, talking as if trying to
solve problems while on campus as to their friends to their classes. And in that, it wasn't always
connected to There's certain times where they feel more connected than others, when people
are more motivated. Like it's passionate. I guess the other time where it's been connected is
through LEAD fellows. It's something that some Sabo does. That's how I have so many
internships is because of lead fellows and Elaine and what they did over there, but the kind of
group work that we did, and what we talked about when we would meet up as a group. They
felt very connected. I think Elaine was very, I guess, intentional about that, I think the things we
talked about, really got us thinking about how to how to have like live life, more civically, I
guess, and more responsible and voting and like knowing what's going on and knowing about
knowing that the ideas and the ideologies I guess, of the people you were with, and and talking
about them.
Katie Clark 07:56
So in what ways, if any, did civic learning experiences at Augsburg preparing you to be more
ready for your professional role? or civic leadership after you graduated?
N
Noah Greenfield 08:10
Yeah. I think a lot I think, especially in the workplace, I think it's helped me a bunch. With, with
coworkers, I guess. And and again, bosses too. I think that's where it's helped me the most. I
guess with like, how to navigate a conversation that might be uncomfortable, I think is like, the
biggest thing that it's kind of taught me is when things become more like petty is what I mean
by difficult conversation. The civic teachings kind of like helping you see the bigger picture, I
guess, of like, why you're there and what you're doing. So it kind of helps navigate those
conversations and not get caught up with you know, like, things that might not mean a whole
lot of in the bigger picture, but can feel very important. Like, right there. Yeah, helping navigate
conversations with coworkers is probably like, the biggest thing and then helped make, I guess
decisions for the people that work for me and in a more balanced way where I can. So it's not
just about the work it's also about them as people to like how how do they feel showing up
every day is something that needs to be taken an accounting for when you're making decisions
for everybody is their hours. You know, if they're there, back to back too much or they're not
getting enough time at home or away, or they're working too many afternoons so that they're
not getting to see people during the day, stuff like that, where it's like, what helps people be
like a person in society is like, yeah, I guess that just kind of helps make make decisions, I
guess. Well, at work. So.
Katie Clark 10:20
Would you say that your time at Augsburg has helped you engage more in your larger
community outside of the workplace? Or were you just kind of born that way? Because it
sounds like you're kind of an engaged person to begin with.
N
Noah Greenfield 10:37
So I am an engaged person to begin with, but I'm going from like the country. So it would be
pretty hard if I didn't have Augsburg to show me show me how, I guess to like, point my
compass, because I think I would just sort of gone off in that, like, you've done other stuff, for
sure. But in terms of like, engaging in like, a civic way, Augsburg definitely kind of like taught
me like, I guess, some like ground rules and some basic, you know, formulations and how to do
that. So yeah, I would say definitely. Yeah.
Katie Clark 11:13
Katie Clark 11:13
And this question is a little bit redundant. But we're kind of doing that just to see if it spurs any
other ideas, but have you? And you've heard answered it already. But have you been able to
use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect decision making? Or be
an agent of change as a professional? If so, how?
N
Noah Greenfield 11:32
Oh, my Yes. Oh, my gosh, yeah, that's, that's like, that's number one. I guess what I've taken
away is, like, with my degree in public policy was "slash" change. So change is something that's
like, extremely important me like positive change. So it's like, that's right now I'm actually at
my job, I'm using my leadership studies degree, the social change model of leadership with my
apartment, and the people who I work with and work with me, and we're trying to like work
through that book, to kind of our overarching goals is to effectively communicate with each
other and to be a team. So we don't really feel like a team right now. And so that's my positive
change that I want to make. And then we're, like, all just talking about these aspects of like
individual values and group values. And, you know, like, what do we need from each other? And
so, and I would have no idea how to do any of them. It wasn't for what I learned at Augsburg,
for sure. So it's really nice to have.
Katie Clark 12:36
Well, this one is a little dense, people get tripped up on this next one? So what, if any, do you
see among your professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? So do you see any
connections between those? If you don't, that's okay. So professional identity, vocation and
civic leadership?
N
Noah Greenfield 13:05
Yeah, that's a really good question. That's like a write down question. But I will definitely try to
answer that the best. So professional identity. I guess what I'm when I hear when I think when I
hear that is how other people and how you see yourself in a professional workplace, how you
like, your vision of yourself or other people see, vocation is what like, gets me going, what
motivates me and what's my calling? And like, why do I do what I do? And then last one was in
my that my civic duty, you said?
Katie Clark 13:41
Your civic leadership,
N
Noah Greenfield 13:43
Civic leadership, okay. And I know that connection between those I would say there's, there's a
connection between those for me, I think there has to be a connection, or I will look for
someplace else, or I will go someplace else, I think those three have to have, there's has to be
some type of connection I can make in my head between those to really my all in a workplace
and I would say civic leadership, like I that's what I've been working on the most. The other two
vocation wise, I love caring for people. So it's like no matter what aspect I can do that with,
that's it. That's it with my position and in the first one. Just to be a leader at work and to be,
you know, conscious and communicate with people, I think is really what I do at work and how
people see me and what I want people to see me as someone they can come to and solve
problems and talk to you and then civic leadership is just living those, living those out together.
And I think some days is harder and I would say I would be lying if I said every day they feel
connected. I think you have to work to, to connect those. I would say, when I'm on when I'm
feeling good, and I have had a good day and is rest and wake up feeling ready and motivated
those, there's those three have to be connected for me and are connected.
Katie Clark 15:22
Yeah. When I would think to you know, given if you're living your vocational dream, and you're
putting all your passion into your, you know, chosen profession, you it's easy to burn out.
N
Noah Greenfield 15:35
Oh, yeah, yes. Yeah.
Katie Clark 15:38
So every day is a different day. Yeah. So
N
Noah Greenfield 15:40
Yeah. New struggle, new fight.
Katie Clark 15:46
So, do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if that specific term doesn't
resonate with you? And if so, could you describe it or explain i
N
Noah Greenfield 16:03
Hmm. Um, I think so. It's hard, just from, it feels like, I work in Brooklyn Park, and I live in
Minneapolis. And those kind of feel a little disconnected when I think of citizen I think of the
work I'm doing for that to be the work where I'm living as well. So that feels like they have to be
connected. But I think in my mind, they kind of go to that. I think in Minneapolis, it's harder to
be a citizen, than I think anywhere else in Minnesota, it feels like just with how big it is, and
how many different ideas and people there are, or it's, it's almost to be a citizen is to step on
people's toes a little bit, which like, it's fine, I think. But I think it's becoming harder to step on
people's toes, I guess, challenge ideas and communicate with them very clearly about those
ideas. Like that's getting a little harder. Because it's just so big, where, whereas when I'm at
work, it feels smaller, and it feels much more attainable, and easier to be a citizen and act of
take an active role in the community there. than it is here. But I guess that's yeah.
Katie Clark 17:43
In your opinion on this too, because I feel like you're so I've think I've done like six of these
now. And I feel like sometimes the word civic, professional or citizen professional, like doesn't
resonate with students or alone? Like, is there terminology to get at what we're getting at? You
know, and if, if it doesn't resonate with you, I'd be interested. And if it doesn't, I'd be interested
to to see if you thought of any other way to describe what we're describing something else?
N
Noah Greenfield 18:20
What, what is the definition of civic professional?
Katie Clark 18:25
Yeah, so civic, professional, or citizen professional would kind of be like, so for example, as a
nurse, so it'd be not just like working within my institution, but really seeing myself as being
engaged in the community, thinking about social justice, co creating different things with
people like kind of leveling or de emphasizing that power. So really trying to be Hey, we're,
we're all part of this country. And so what is our duty to make sure that we're involved and
shape decisions in our governments because technically, in a perfect democratic society, that's
what it would be. But I believe we've kind of fallen away from that. And professionals kind of
are in this ivory tower. So how do we get away from that? You know, yeah, yeah.
N
Noah Greenfield 19:15
I think I don't think there is a better word for that. I think people feel disconnected of that from
that or people like if you're interviewing people from like, if my age or younger me or similar to
my age. I just think people that have no concept of that. I think there's people just don't
understand what that would even mean what that would look like. I mean, he's looking like any
like television shows or anything or you don't see anything like that if people in the workplace
it's very you know, you're you're an individual and your workplace you're there to get money.
You're there to do a certain whatever motivates you to get there and then you're gonna go
home. And I've found that with people that work for me too, is There that's I'm trying to kind of
suss out is like, what's the bigger thing for why you're here? So I think people are confused and
feel disconnect from it. Because there's, there's, there's there's probably no word for or phrase
for it for people. So I think it's a good phrase. I like the phrase. But yeah, I think that would
probably be why it's just people don't have a concept of it. There's no set of places like like
CTUL or, or people or workplaces that are specifically honed in on that aspect of it and make a
big part of their mission to do that.
Katie Clark 20:41
Katie Clark 20:41
So, is there anything you wish you would have learned during your time at Augsburg that you
didn't?
N
Noah Greenfield 20:53
That's a good a question I wish I had learned.
Katie Clark 20:59
Or maybe it's there are other opportunities or experience you wish that you would have had to
prepare you for your future career? It could be either or?
N
Noah Greenfield 21:08
That's a good one. I don't think I came away from my experience thinking that I think in looking
back, it's hard as I learned so many different things where it's like, what else could I have
learned? Yeah, I don't know. I don't know if there was I'm sure if I'm sure there's something
because there always is. But right. Just right now, I think I learned so many different things with
with the liberal arts education, having so many different areas of learning and my minors and
majors allowed for so many different areas of learning that I felt like they had so much I think, if
I could have learned one thing more I would have liked learn the arguments of conservatives
more and thought about them deeper, so I could more easily refuted them. I think. I think that's
one thing that I would have loved. I think the only one class we really got there was like an
argumentation class, where we actually really learned about opposing perspectives, like
deeply. I think that that's probably the one thing I would learn coming back.
Katie Clark 22:21
Well, so is there anything that you'd like to add that I didn't ask you about at all?
N
Noah Greenfield 22:30
Um, like add to like, add to the this recording?
Katie Clark 22:35
Yes. Is there Yeah, that you want to share that I didn't ask you about?
N
Noah Greenfield 22:39
I don't know. I think Augsburg is doing a pretty good job. But I think I'm kind of a special case of
our experience, just with, with the type of learning that I did get in to being the guinea pig for
that leadership program. I think the leadership program was probably a very good start on this
that leadership program. I think the leadership program was probably a very good start on this
what you guys doing now? And like, what we're trying to do in the workplace, and yeah, I don't
know. I think it's I think it's cool. I think there has to be some sort of like, bigger thing people
need to go to in need to think of in their minds when they go to work or when they are walking
around every day. I think we're definitely losing touch with that right now.
Katie Clark 23:34
Well, thank you so much. This has been so insightful. So that concludes our interview. So I'll
stop the recording. I appreciate your time.
Show less
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, h... Show more
Oral History with Emily Uecker (2022)
Wed, 4/6 4:35PM
22:28
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, important, social worker, people, vocation, engaged, civic engagement, students, social,
professional, experiences, work, community, big, bachelor, civic leadership, policy, special education,
civic, helped
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Emily Uecker
Katie Clark 00:02
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional on higher education.
My name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg health comments. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
E
Emily Uecker 00:24
My name is Emily Uecker.
Katie Clark 00:28
Great. And can you also tell us? When did you or when did you graduate from Augsburg?
E
Emily Uecker 00:36
Oh, I graduated with my bachelor's in social work in 2015.
Katie Clark 00:42
And before we continue, I just want to confirm that you consent to being interviewed and
having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made available to the public.
E
Emily Uecker 00:52
Yes
Yes
Katie Clark 00:54
So can you tell me a little bit about your educational background? And so you said you studied
social work at Augsburg. So where are you working now too? That would be great.
E
Emily Uecker 01:05
Sure. So I work as a special education social worker at Sojourner Truth Academy in North
Minneapolis. And then educational background, I did my bachelor's in Social Work at Augsburg,
Augsburg was my first choice for college, when I went. I grew up in Sioux Falls, South Dakota,
and knew I wanted some good engagement in the community and in an urban environment.
And so Augsburg was the top of my list. I then worked for a couple years after college and then
decided to go back for my masters but went down to Washington University in St. Louis, and
did my masters and social work there and missed the Twin Cities. So decided to move back.
Katie Clark 01:06
So thinking about your time at Augsburg were the concepts of the citizen professional civic
engagement, civic leadership or civic skills discussed in your classes or programs that you were
involved with? And if so, do you remember which ones?
E
Emily Uecker 02:05
Yes, absolutely. I think all of those were discussed at some level of being a social work major of
civic leadership is a big part of that of how to engage in the community, but then also how to
engage at every level, I guess, I should say, in the community. So whether it's individuals,
groups, institutions, and then even politics and policy of that's all discussed in terms of being a
social worker, and how to create the best environment for people moving forward and stay true
to those values. I was also involved in the Bonner Leaders Program. And that was really
important for both civic engagement and civic leadership, because that was discussed very
often. And then interfaith scholars as well as that scholarship program. And we engaged in the
community through a spiritual lens, so talked about different spiritual traditions and how that
contributes to our understanding of what what civic engagement means.
Katie Clark 03:15
So you're naturally engaged person yourself? Great. So which experiences if any standout is
meaningful opportunities to learn, reflect and integrate lessons across both your coursework
and the community engaged learning?
E
Emily Uecker 03:34
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
Sure. So those last two I mentioned the Bonner Leaders and Interfaith scholars is what I always
tell people were some of the best things I did during college. Bonner gave me the chance, I
think it's called like the LEAD Fellows now or something, but they gave me the chance to have
internships in the community from basically the moment I stepped foot on campus. It was a
program I entered my freshman year, I had engaged with people working at other agencies.
And so it was not only being able to have that support of being placed right away at a
internship at a nonprofit, and getting work study money to do that. But then having the support
to come back to of working with people at the Sabo Center and having that supervision but
then also having monthly meetings where I talk to people who are doing internships at
nonprofits across the Twin Cities. And so that not only helped my perspective of seeing the
different ways, one can be involved in civic engagement. It wasn't all nonprofits, somewhere,
government some were other sectors but it was all related to the community and so hearing
the about different people's experiences, and then having that experience myself was so
important. And then also just that network to go into when I was looking for jobs is being able
to say, Oh, hey, I know I didn't work at the Wilder Foundation. But I know people who did and
can talk to them about the work that they do, or whether it be housing or food shelf programs,
or different things that you kind of need to do as a social worker of coordinating all those
services. Having those connections really helped me. And then interfaith scholars stuck out
more so for the how the spiritual component connected, and I think that was really important,
too. I think that was a good grounding in that work, of kind of bringing it back internally of
what's your motivation? Why do you want to do this for the world?
Katie Clark 06:01
Excellent. And this, you kind of already answered this. So if something else comes to mind, let
me know. But in what ways did civic learning experiences that Augsburg prepare you to be
more ready for professional roles or civic leadership?
E
Emily Uecker 06:17
Sure. So again, like I talked about, seeing the different sectors was really important. I think
Augsburg also provided the groundwork with different student groups to be engaged. So I was
involved some with Students for Racial Justice, I was also really encouraged politically at
Augsburg, like a lot of college campuses. I think that's when people are starting to get involved
in politics, and was excited about that. So I ended up working for the DFL for a semester of
getting students. We were trying to increase voter turnout for the 2014 midterms, was the
main purpose and so engaging, really literally, democracy that way. And I bring that up,
because as someone that, I think, part of the time during college, I was like, Yeah, I want to do
like these big policy things. I'm going to be an organizer, I'm going to do this and then having
an organizing job and was just like, No, no, I don't. So being able to have that space, Augsburg
to kinda like try and experiment was really good. So then when I did go into the workforce, I
knew some of what, okay, this is what I'm looking for. And this is what I'm not. And that
obviously takes time, but to figure out in a more concrete way, but having the space to do that.
Katie Clark 07:53
So what is your job look like? Now, now that you're, you know, a social worker, and you sit in
the school, right?
E
Emily Uecker 08:01
So my title is a special education social worker, I'm at a pre-K through eight charter school. And
I have a caseload of mostly third through eighth graders. They are all students who have
individual education plans, so qualify for special education. I run individual and group behavior
and social skills classes. And at a lot of schools, they'll have special education, teachers running
social skills and behavior skills more. And part of the reason that the school has a social worker
doing it is a lot of students who get diagnosed with emotional behavioral disorder, a lot of that's
the source of trauma. And so having someone that has that social work background, to be able
to work with them and recognize that trauma, so I do that individual work. I also do a lot of
communicating with parents and referring them to additional mental health supports, outside
of school, always talking to teachers. So it's everything from doing schedules and behavior
trackers for kids with helping them to stay on track to talking about things going on in life to
having a third grade girls group where we talk about mean girls and all the things that come
with that.
Katie Clark 09:29
So do you feel like some of the experiences you had had you had at Augsburg prepared you for
the role you're in now or does it seem kind of disconnected?
E
Emily Uecker 09:40
I think it definitely connects. I think that having the social work experience was really important
of that bachelor's of Social Work. Especially being someone who did both a bachelor's and a
master's of a lot of people do their masters in social work without having a bachelor's when it
first if they do psychology or something else, but having that bachelor's really helped me to see
different sides of social work. And so right now I kind of walk the line but between clinical and
generalist. I've done a plan to do clinical track, or get that full licensure. And really, it's my time
at Augsburg that's helped me sort of stay grounded and figure out how to set those boundaries
and how to figure that out because it let me look at everything that social workers do. And had
I just gone for my master's, it would have been specialized right away. So that was really
important in my education, but then also having that on the ground experience of just being
able to say, going in that I've worked in youth spaces for almost a decade now is huge. And like
there's a lot that I've learned on the ground, like anybody who works with kids or works with
people will tell you if it just takes time to find your rhythm and different things. And so it was
really important that I had those experiences in college as well.
Katie Clark 11:24
Have you been able to use your civic learning or community engagement experience to affect
decision making or be an agent of change as a professional and if so how?
E
Emily Uecker 11:37
So one way is just within my school of being able to advocate for students, I've been here for
school wide policies that are really important, or set up my own structure, if there's a lack of
structure. Because we're a small independent school, sometimes there's not the same level of
across the board procedures that there would be in a large district. So being able to do that,
and set that is a big way that I affect change within my workplace. I think, also, I'm part of the
Minnesota school social workers association, and we just had our Day on the Hill recently. So I
actually had the opportunity to talk to Melissa Hortman, she's a representative, and she's
currently the Speaker of the House for the state of Minnesota, about increasing funding for
school support professionals within schools.
Katie Clark 12:52
So this is kind of a dense question, but what connections if any, do you see among your
professional identity, your vocation, and civic leadership? Very Augsburg type question, right?
professional identity, vocation and civic leadership. Let me think. And it's okay if you don't see
a connection.
E
Emily Uecker 13:23
So I definitely see a connection between the three. I feel like social work is something I'm good
at and youth work in general, there's something I'm good at. And something that has that both
like enjoyment and skill, alignment or spiritual and skill alignment that comes with vocation. I
think that so my job is something that's within my vocation, and then I do have civic
engagement and civic leadership within that. I think one thing I will say about vocation that I've
come to see since my time at Augsburg, I think I got very wrapped up in this idea of your job is
who you are. And so that's something I'm working on personally right now of trying to move
away from that, some. Because I think that leads to burnout, to a big extent of I am more than
just my job title. And figuring out what that means in my spiritual, social, personal life is
important to me as well as I think that vocation can be a wonderful thing. I think that having a
job that has a component of civic engagement is wonderful, and something that my heart is
definitely in. And I also understand that it's a privilege. I was in a situation that I didn't have to
chase, what was going to make me a certain amount of money or certain amount of financial
security, and had a little more flexibility with that, even though obviously, bills are still a thing,
and money is important. I don't have to take care of my parents, like, some of my classmates
did, or I don't have children on my own, like some of my classmates did. And so I see it as a
huge privilege to be able to be in a space where I'm doing something that feels like I'm part of
a community, and it's very much aligned with my heart and for people.
Katie Clark 15:55
Do you see yourself as a civic or citizen professional, even if you only use that specific term?
And if you do, how would you describe that or explain that to others?
E
Emily Uecker 16:09
Sure, so I think that the field of social work really does this well. It's this idea that policy affects
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
who we work with, at every level, including down to the most local office. And so being
engaged, politically is important to me, not only for, for my job, but outside of it as well. I see
myself as a citizen professional, because I choose to since I work in Minneapolis, I also choose
to live in Minneapolis. And that's where I vote. I make sure that who I'm paying attention to and
talking to, when I talk to representatives as well, or when I pay attention to local elections, like
city council elections, if I was paying attention to my home ward, and I was paying to the
attention to the ward, where I work. It was important to me to see how that would affect the
people that I work with. And then I also think of it as in some ways, a form of self care is being
involved in those policy things. I see kids every day, that don't have a lot of agency and some
of the things they've been through. And their families don't even have a lot of agency and
some of the things they've had to go through if it's affected by bigger forces, like policy. And so
for my own view, on my profession, it's important for me to know those policies and be
engaged with them, because I can't change it in a second. Like, I want to.
Katie Clark 18:16
Yeah, I think one thing that I'm kind of finding through this process is I think a lot of people and
you just described it greatly, but a lot of people are really being civic or citizen professionals,
but maybe the words don't resonate with people as as, as the actual terms, right, so you think
of any other terminology that could really fit around this that you've heard that would work to
to really describe a citizen, professional or civic engagement? Or do you think that sticking with
these terms, moving forward is fine?
E
Emily Uecker 18:54
I can see people getting hung up on the word citizen. I don't know. It's hard to like, condense it
to a term. So I think there's some and I'm sure that's what you've struggled with, of like, I think
there's something to be said for asking about, like, how people are involved with policy, in
terms of their profession, or maybe even just like, Are you a politically engaged professional,
because I think there's a lot of discourse around that to have like, that's expanded a lot in a lot
of spaces. Of like, the politics is personal and I don't know.
Katie Clark 20:05
Is there anything you wish you would have learned at your time at Augsburg that you didn't
learn? or is there other opportunities or experiences you wish you had to prepare you for your
current career?
E
Emily Uecker 20:19
I think that vocation piece can be tricky. I think how it was taught at the time that I was at
Augsburg, which, again, was now several years ago, so might be different now. But at the time,
it was very much that push for vocation seemed like your identity was wrapped up in it. And so
I think ways to find your identity outside of that, and exploring spirituality, and whatever else
outside of that is important too. Your work in the world doesn't have to be the work you're paid
to do.
Katie Clark 21:03
Very good. Is there anything else you would like to share with us that I didn't ask?
E
Emily Uecker 21:11
Um, I guess one thing I'll say so I mentioned I went to Washington University for grad school,
which is like this, you know, top 20 for undergrad, big social work program, and I missed
Augsburg so much when I was there. It was tough to be at a social work program at a school
that wasn't liked by the community. They were seen as, and rightfully so, as just like a big
resource up and sort of elitist entity there. I missed Augsburg, even though they get it wrong,
sometimes even though there is like, the time it's taken for Augsburg to shift to be more
civically engaged, I think that it really does try its hardest to live up to its mission and its
values. And I missed that and appreciate that.
Katie Clark 22:17
Thank you, and thank you for taking the time for this interview. That concludes our interview.
So I just want to say thanks again.
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Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ... Show more
Oral History with Bashiru Kormah (2022)
Wed, 3/30 4:06PM
16:24
SUMMARY KEYWORDS
augsburg, professional, citizen, work, experiences, civic, vocation, learn, graduated, peace corps,
civic leadership, conversation, opportunity, question, classes, community, deep, banyan, university,
higher ed
SPEAKERS
Katie Clark, Bashiru Kormah
Katie Clark 00:04
Thank you so much for participating in this oral history project with Augsburg University, and
the Kettering Foundation exploring the concept of the citizen professional and higher ed. My
name is Katie Clark. I'm an assistant professor of nursing and the executive director of the
Augsburg Health Commons. Could you please introduce yourself for the recording?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:26
My name BK Kormah, an alum of Augsburg University.
Katie Clark 00:31
Great. So before we continue, I would just like to confirm that you give consent to be
interviewed and having that interview stored at Augsburg University, which will be made
available to the public.
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:44
Yes, that's fine.
Katie Clark 00:46
So when did you graduate from Augsburg University?
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
B
Bashiru Kormah 00:50
I graduated in 2019.
Katie Clark 00:53
Can you tell me a little bit about your educational background and what you're currently
studying in your graduate degree?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:01
I graduated from Osseo Senior High School. And then I went to Augsburg for my undergrad and
got my degree in International Relations and International Business. Graduated as the
university president in my junior year. So that was exciting. And then currently getting my
graduate degree in Sustainable International Development at Brandeis University in
Massachusetts.
Katie Clark 01:32
Wow. Great. So asking you to think back at your time at Augsburg were there concepts of the
citizen professional, civic engagement, civic leadership, or civic skills that were discussed in
any of your classes or programs? And if so, which ones, if you remember?
B
Bashiru Kormah 01:53
Yes. So I remember the LEAD Fellow Program. I'm also remember there were several
conversations I think with Dennis, I'm not sure of his name.
Katie Clark 02:06
Dennis Donovan.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:07
Yes. Regarding that citizen, professional, and also had leadership classes. I was also leadership
minor with Professor Elaine, and I'm forgetting the other professors name,
Katie Clark 02:22
Eschenbacher.
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:24
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Yes. So that so that that conversation was came up often in leadership classes.
Katie Clark 02:34
Wonderful. So which of those experiences really stand out as being meaningful opportunities to
learn, reflect and integrate lessons across coursework and community engaged learning?
B
Bashiru Kormah 02:49
Definitely the LEAD Fellows Program, because it was, it was very intentional with the trainings.
And then with every other all of the students have in your program. We had the same
conversation, and then we go out into the fields do our work together, discuss, learn more. So
that program specifically believe on did a good job of targeting that goal.
Katie Clark 03:14
Do you remember where your field placement was at?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:18
Yeah, gotta never forget, I'm still in contact with them, Banyan Community, that's where my,
my placement was, and I still have a very, very good and extensive relationship with those
folks. Even after I graduated from Augsburg, I was still there working with them, and they often
do recommendations for me. So yeah, it was Banyan Community.
Katie Clark 03:41
So did you feel like some of those LEAD Fellow experiences spoke to your coursework when you
were at Augsburg? Or did it feel somewhat disconnected?
B
Bashiru Kormah 03:53
I think it is just the field of my studies. I was in international relations, international business,
and then being a leadership minor. So he just is really integrated really, really well. So I would
say a good connected. Excellent.
Katie Clark 04:09
So in what ways, if any, did the civic learning experiences while you were at Augsburg prepare
you for your professional role or your opportunities for civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
B
Bashiru Kormah 04:24
Yeah, like it prepared me really well, because right after that experience, I went directly into
the Peace Corps right after college. So I think I'll just paid attention and see, and this
conversation (about citizen professional) was just so deep in the guests because they were
coming. So I was like, you know, I think this would be great. So just really, you know, like, just
just concept I'm really wanting to learn more and dive more into it into really, really do similar
work.
Katie Clark 04:55
So do you feel like your experiences in the field were really what shaped your experiences
moving forward? Or would you say some of the presentations in by Dennis Donovan or Elaine
Eschenbacher, or that you mentioned? Did they really prepare you for post graduation life?
B
Bashiru Kormah 05:18
I would say it was called it was a collective experience I really helped shape my direction for,
you know, after graduation, you know, just being a part of the program. And then working with
other extremely gifted folks who are very passionate about doing work in the community. And
that's one conversation that we had with with Dennis, it's conversation, where we have some
high school students came into, and it was a very deep conversation. So this thing, just really
had me hungry, I guess, for more. And that's how I decided going to the Peace Corps today to
carry on similar work and be able to apply those leadership skills that I learned, you know, it
does, it does work, it's very awesome, you know, to be able to incorporate it into the work I had
to do. I felt very well equipped for the Peace Corps.
Katie Clark 06:16
Well, and so I'm, I'm just curious, given, you know, your extensive involvement in such
activities as the Peace Corps and being the president of the student body and all that. Were
you like that in high school as well? Are you just, is that just kind of how you, you know, you
always been or do you feel like Augsburg gave you different opportunities to develop those
skills in different ways?
B
Bashiru Kormah 06:46
Yeah, I think in high school, the only thing I did pretty much in high school was soccer, and the
Brooklyn Youth Council, like, which was a youth group that represented the youth within our
cities for living in Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So those are the two main activities I did.
And then, and then won the Act Six scholarship, and also, there was a lot that was similar to the
work, to see where you can do additional work as well. So coming to Augsburg really exploded
that, like I had an idea, but then just being a part of these programs, really, you know, exposed
it. Then working with Elaine, and I got nominated for the Newman Civic Fellow. So that really,
really, you know, that was a burst that I felt like I could soar.
Katie Clark 07:35
That's amazing. And I remember your name, I think you spoke at a an event.
B
Bashiru Kormah 07:39
Yep. Yep. Yeah, I think so. Yeah.
Katie Clark 07:42
Excellent. Well, have you been able to use your civic learning and community? Some of these
are a little bit redundant, but they're on purpose. So we're kind of asking the question in
different ways to maybe just kind of, for things a little more, but have you been able to use
your civic learning or community engagement experiences to affect decision making or be an
agent of change as a professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 08:03
Yes, so currently, I'm the youth director on the board for Brooklyn Park and Brooklyn Center. So
that work is, I'm able to take those experiences especially going to do some leadership, and
especially in the leadership course, courses, working with different folks. And then with the,
with the citizen professional, that was just so powerful for those conversation, even how nurses
you know, use their skills. It was it was deep. So like, for me, it just, it just kind of opened my
mind said that no matter what career I go into, have the opportunity to, you know, to be an
agent of change, regardless of if I'm in a position of power or not.
Katie Clark 08:57
Great. What connections if any, do you see among your professional identity, your vocation and
civic leadership?
B
Bashiru Kormah 09:07
Oh, I see that as a deep one. So vocation, Augsburg, man, I just got me reminiscent of
freshman year. What's your vocation? What's your vocation? (laugh). So with that, I think just
the fact that my, my vocation has always been on doing development work, and it just fits in so
well with civic engagement. And just like this overall umbrella was citizen professional, so it's
like, so it all goes well together, you know, so I can see that. But even though my, my, my my
career path has shifted, because now you know, finance now - who would have thought? But
still, it's you know, I'm working from home too, you know, but I also help with this conflict
resolution, some of these things that we discuss, often, we always have been our work, you
know, there, there's always, you know, these things happen. But it's also awesome that these
skills, you know, to be incorporated into my, my professional life, and then knowing that this
also working on my vocation as well. Which is to do more development work internationally, or
wherever God leads me.
Katie Clark 10:34
I think I need to circle back in a few years and redo this to see where you're at. Do you see
yourself as a civic or citizen professional? If so, how do you describe that or explain it to others,
even if you don't use that specific term, like, do you see yourself as a citizen or citizen
professional?
B
Bashiru Kormah 10:55
I see myself as a citizen professional. And that's something, is funny, because I was I was
ordained as pastor actually, honestly. And, and something I share with a folks, I was like, when
I, when I'm blessed, and I'm the General Overseer of my own church, I would create this, this
citizen professional culture, where you don't want to have to be within the church setting for
you to you know, be seen as doing God's work, you know, you can be you know, that citizen
professional mindset. And this to me, what it is, is you can be in any career field, but you can
still be an agent of change, and being a voice for the voiceless. And then incorporating that into
a church setting where you don't really have to be, you know, a pastor or deacon, you know,
you can just be whatever, you could be a doctor, and you will still be doing God's work by being
a citizen professional within your career, but being a good steward in your community and with
your client. So I don't have a specific as a definition of it, but I just have this idea in my head of
what it means to be a citizen professional, which is within your respective field, being an agent
of change, and still doing work that other other people are doing for your intention.
Katie Clark 12:25
That's great. Thank you. Um, so here's the question, and you can be completely honest. Is
there anything that you wish you learned during your time at Augsburg that you didn't?
B
Bashiru Kormah 12:39
I wish like that, that term is something that always stuck with me. But I wish there was like this
class 101 on how to answer that question. "What is a citizen professional?" But the discussion I
think, is good. Like, I have this idea in my head like, this dream of, you know, having my own
church and using that model or the method, right, but I just don't know enough of it. You know,
so be like something I wish we really, we really dissected. So if you have any info, Katie, please
send it my way.
Katie Clark 13:14
The other, the last question really is, do you have anything that you want to share with us that I
haven't asked?
B
Bashiru Kormah 13:23
Yeah, I mean, like, that entire thing was great. To be honest. Like, the citizen professional, it
was like a movement, a huge movement. But maybe it was during my term, I feel like it didn't
have a lot of buzz. You know? So, um, something I wish is, it was it was very intentional, it was
integrated with all of the curriculum. Or that it was at least, even if it was just a required
course, or it was embedded in required courses. So the students know these terms, you know,
because, I mean, the work itself was just phenomenal.
Katie Clark 14:06
So being that you're at another graduate, you know, you're at another institution of higher ed,
do you see now being that you can compare the two any, any things that you wish Augsburg
would have done different, that you maybe have where you're at? Or do you see things that
you wish your new place had that Augsburg did, like, you know, now that you're kind of in an in
a new higher ed space?
B
Bashiru Kormah 14:33
Yeah, it's a little different because I'm a graduate student and I'm at home, so I'm not really
interacting with anyone. I just go to class and then I'm on my own, so that really skews my
perception on that particular question. But I can say that particular experience at Augsburg you
know, this one you know that my I always reminiscing on that experience which has shaped my
culture and my stature those settings. Because at Brandeis is you know, especially the program
I'm in it is mostly international students just all international students from all across the world.
So be those classes, it was mostly discussion, you know having this conversation. So when I
had the opportunity to share my answer, I'm not just thinking from this sole mindset, I'm
thinking as a citizen professional or as a global citizen. How am I gonna approach this question,
knowing that I have a bunch of diverse people with extremely diverse backgrounds. You know,
so it has impacted me a lot. It'll be nice to if this conversation was on a graduate level, to be
honest.
Katie Clark 16:03
Well, that concludes all the questions that I have for the interview. So this has been an amazing
opportunity to hear from your experiences, and I've learned a lot and I'm inspired truly so.
Yeah, so I'll end the recording now.
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