Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0363
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commis... Show more
Transcript of “Sex and Racism”
(afternoon session)
A panel discussion with Lillian Anthony, Sumner Jones, Dr. Ronald Palosaari, and Dr.
Mary Howard
Date: 1968-05-15
Identifier: SC 05.1.4.2013.01.0363
Description: Lillian Anthony, the first director of the Minneapolis Civil Rights
Commission; Sumner Jones, a staff member at The Way; Dr. Ronald Palosaari; Ellen
O'Neill, staff TCOIC; Joe O'Neill, staff TCOIC; and Dr. Mary Howard discuss issues of
sex and racism in an afternoon panel at Augsburg College, now Augsburg University, in
Minneapolis. The panel was part of a day focused on speaking and listening to issues of
racial injustice, known as "One Day in May," 1968 May 15.
Duration: 00:59:54
Collection: 13 “One Day in May” sessions were recorded and have been digitized.
They are available on YouTube:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLp3IfZjFdUQJMy9uNoEADuy9KPltsIF-9
00:00:00
[Mary Howard] [The recording cuts in as Howard is speaking] --here you're
in the right place, this is the sex and racism one. Wonder what you heard
about this morning’s session [laughter]. I will introduce the panel. We don't
have Gwen Jones-Davis, whom we'd hope to have, she's quite ill and
could not come. We have--Lilllian Anthony, was kind enough to remain for
the morning session, had to leave for this afternoon, so as sex is often
improvised, the panel is currently improvised. I am Mary Howard, on the
faculty here in psychology. That's not the reason I was chosen for this
panel, I have a suspicion it's because of an error I made a couple of years
ago, in response to a statement, some of you know about it, I won't repeat
it.
00:00:47
Sumner Jones on the staff at The Way, Ron Palosaari, English
department here at Augsburg, Ellen O'Neill, staff TCOIC, and Joe O'Neill,
staff TCOIC. I was trying to decide how to start this, this morning Lillian
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 1
Anthony kind of took it over and went ahead. I'm going to make a brief
introduction and then, I know I think at that point turn it over to Ron to
make a statement and to Sumner to make a statement. Joe and Ellen said
that they did not come prepared to make a statement but will instead
discuss. Can you hear me without the mic? You're frowning.
00:01:31
Can you hear, anybody can't hear me back there? Okay.
00:01:36
[Unidentified panelist] How can you tell?
00:01:36
[Mary Howard] Well I don't know, if they can't hear me then, maybe they'd
raise their hands and frown. I was sort of curious as to why we had a
panel with this title, and several people raised the question after the
session this morning, and also before the session. I thought about it a little
bit. I think it's appropriate. I think it's particularly appropriate because,
though not the reason for racism insofar as the thinking person is
concerned, it is the reason for racism so far as the average person is
concerned. And on the basis of a number of myths, and myths are usually
built on a tiny amount of fact, and a great deal of intention with purpose.
00:02:25
The myth of sex as attached to racism developed during slavery times as
a means of supporting the economy and was done very, very successfully.
A few of the myths that I think are particularly pertinent to this topic, and I
will give some of the facts and some of them you will want to raise
questions about, they're old. And I'm sure you know better, but I'm going
to call them to your attention because even though you may know some of
these things you don't stop to think about them. One of them is that the
Negro is anatomically and physiologically different. That was exploited
during World War Two. French people ran around and looked for the tails
on Negro males and they didn't find them, most people know better now.
00:03:15
Secondly, that the Negro is particularly vigorous. As Edgar Pillow pointed
out this morning, the majority of the Negroes are poor, and poor people,
the majority of the poor people are sick, weak, tired, and generally not
vigorous. However, there are a few things that do support the idea that the
Negro is fairly strong and adaptable, one of them being that he simply has
survived all of the many indignities to which he has been subjected from
the time he came over on the slave ship until now and he's still here, and
in fact is growing in terms of numbers. Third that the Negro is happy, that's
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 2
a stupid idea. No one who is poor, unhealthy, forced to be subjugated to
someone else, is happy. He may put on a happy face for you because it's
unsafe for you to know him if he's in a weak position. You defend yourself
by not letting other people know too much about you. It's only in the last
ten years that you've gotten to know the Negro, and you were possibly
aware of that.
00:04:23
We've known you for a very, very long time, because it was necessary to
our survival to know you, and we've known from your kitchens through
your living rooms and many of you have never been in the homes of a
Negro, and this has been true over the years. Fourth, the Negro is
irresponsible. The males could not get jobs for years, as such could not
support their families, and as frustrated individuals will do, they leave the
situation. There was a precedent for this in the sense that during slavery
times, the Negro, married Negro, had no rights whatsoever insofar as his
family was concerned. He was simply sold out. If it was convenient to sell
the children, they did so and left the husband and wife there. If it was
convenient to sell the wife, they did so and left the father and the children
there, or whatever situation. Usually the children went with the mother.
00:05:18
This precedent was set for the Negro family, that marriage really had no
meaning for the family. Furthermore, the mothers generally took very good
care of their children and still do. This is a tradition among the poor
people. They take as good of care of their families as they possibly can
and unlike the wealthy person, they do not leave their children to the care
of other people. They may not be able to stay there all day because
they're out working, but when they come home they are there with their
own children. Another myth, that the Negroes represent a race. There is
only one race, period. Another one, that if you're light, that if you have a lot
of white blood, that you are more intelligent. A book was published even to
that effect two years ago by a South Carolinian psychologist, he proved it
by his test.
00:06:21
You can prove lots of things with statistics if you twist them and he did a
very good job of it. The fact that there were more Negroes who were in,
who were educated and who did have reasonably decent jobs occurred
because during slavery times those who were misceginated, if you like the
term, were also the ones who were educated by their white fathers, and a
social class grew up within the Negroes that was built on color. And one of
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 3
the things that disgusted me when I was a child was the Society of the
Blue Vein, and if you could see the blue vein in your arm, you belong to
the elect group. I happen to be able to see the blue vein in my arm, and I
rejected that group because I thought it was one of the most silly things,
even at age ten, that I'd ever heard. And finally, that the Negro women are
morally free. I have been accosted on the street by strangers, and
propositioned. One time by a policeman, in a police car cruising down the
street, in the middle of downtown Birmingham.
00:07:33
I am so constricted, I make myself sick, it would never dawn on me to flirt
with anyone. I was propositioned by the policeman. Another time, I was
propositioned by a person walking down the street when I was on my way
home from work, after dark. I have never been propositioned by a Negro
male stranger. I wonder who's morally free? In Alabama, there is a sheriff
of a small town, a white sheriff, who is "married", with quotation marks, to
a Negro. He acknowledges her as his wife, acknowledges the children as
his children, and they attend the white school, and no one makes any
remarks about her. He cannot, could not, at that time--and I don't know
whether the law has changed in the last two years or not--could not marry
her in--legally, because legal marriages were not possible in Alabama and
I think this is still so. I have two white female friends there who are married
to Negro males, and they simply designate themselves as Negroes.
Alright? With those comments, I will turn it over to Ron Palosaari.
00:08:51
[Ron Palosaari] I feel like an anti-climax, no pun intended. [Laughter]. How
many of you were here this morning, because I don't want to make the
same--not too many. I hate making you identify yourself, but I'll make, I'll
make a little bit of the same pitch then. Last summer, I have two daughters
and a son and my four-year-old daughter was outside playing with my
two-year-old son, and a neighbor wandered by and said to my daughter:
"My, your brother has a nice tan, doesn't he?" and my daughter, indignant
that she had not gotten any praises, "Yes, but he's Negro, you know, and
they are darker." We decided, after we had adopted two Caucasians, and
talked about a mixed-racial child for a long time, to adopt Michael, and
soon Mike will be joined by his brother who we have not yet seen but are
told is coming.
00:09:51
And so, I'd like to just mention the situation of interracial adoption. We did
not adopt Michael because we thought that we could give him the greatest
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 4
life in the world. Obviously, being my son, you know, he's exposed to me
twenty-four hours a day is not the greatest situation you can imagine, but
we adopted Michael because we thought not only could we provide a
home for a child who needed an adoption, as adoptive children do, but it
also would be a healthy and good experience for my two Caucasian
daughters. It would be, it would be, and it has been a good experience for
us, because Michael has given to us far more than we will ever give to
him. But we, of course, I think like most people who have ever adopted a
mixed-racial child are little bit frightened about the future. We want
Michael to be proud of both his white heritage and his Black heritage, or
Negro heritage depending on which word you prefer right now, and this is
going to be hard, because we know that he's going to hate- he's going to
face hatred, stupidity, meanness of various kinds.
00:10:54
And, of course, the tension will probably come, really will get probably
tough when he gets into high school or college, because this is when the
question of sex and racism will most obviously appear. What will we tell
Michael to do about dating? Well our choice, which we talked about
before, is Michael you know can date any girl he's brave enough to ask
out you see- whether she know what, no matter what shade of color she is
race, creed, or any other religion, any other thing like that, and the same
goes for marriage. Some people have suggested, usually not directly to
us, well if a child is Negro, partly Negro, why shouldn't the Negroes adopt
him? Well, for one thing, it is the whites in our society, in our unjust
society, who can afford the adoptions. And I would ask you today why
don't you right now consider, when you get married, most of you are only a
few years from prime breeding time [laughs], when when you get--when
you get married rather than just populate the Earth with others like you
and contribute to the population explosion.
00:11:51
After you've had a child or two naturally, or even before, why not consider
adoption, and if you consider adoption, why not consider racially mixed
children because then as now there will probably more of them than there
are homes to receive them, and these kids need homes. There's over
thirty children, racially mixed children, in Minneapolis right now who could
go into homes if the homes were available, and the only reason they're
being kept out is because of the prejudice of our society. Think about it.
There are families in our town now who have, who even though they could
have natural children have adopted racially mixed children because they
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 5
felt that they were in a sense contributing more to life by having this kind
of family than the one which is in greater vogue in our society. It's
something to think about. But it's very curious to us, as we see Michael
around our house, and he doesn't have any special problems that we can
think of now, except, you know, normal problems for two-year-olds, that
some day some father is going to say ‘well that Black bastard isn't going to
date my daughter.’
00:12:55
Michael happens to be, you know, light brown, but he'll be called that I
suppose, you see, and this will involve us right in. What is there about
Michael that is going to frighten some parents so much that they, before
they ever know him, will say I don't want him to date my daughter. This is
the whole question of race and sex in our society which my child is going
to be a part of, and I'll turn it over to Sumner now for one view on what the
situation is - why it is something like this.
00:13:27
[Long Pause with sounds of microphone adjustments]
00:13:45
[Sumner Jones] I think it's time that we begin to blame the irresponsible
actions of any society with each and every individual member of that
society. We have to blame all of Germany, including the Jews, for
Auschwitz, we've got to blame the entirety of Western Europe for the
predicament that the American Indian is in. In the same sense, we have to
blame the entire world for that institution of slavery which resulted in the
ultimate, total dehumanization of Black people in this country and other
countries. This brings it down to a personal level, and we talked a great
deal about sex this morning, and I imagine that's why most of you are here
because you heard, man, it was pretty racy discussion going on in that
group. I'd like to concentrate more on the racism aspect of it now because
that's something that you people can do something about.
00:15:03
You don't recognize the fact that you, as college students, are perhaps the
most powerful group of people in the country. Most of you are old enough
to vote, all of you are old enough to demonstrate. I say that you carry this
power because you're the, you're the good people, you're the strivers.
You're going after what the society says you should have using the tools
that the society says you should use to get it. So nobody's gonna disagree
with you. If you people say that the society has to change and you say it
convincingly enough you can bet that the society will change. But it's
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 6
interesting that those who recognize most the need for change in the
society tend to rather drop out from it then stay in it and work.
00:16:09
It isn't through dropping out that we'll accomplish anything, nothing at all,
but rather by plunging into the world, by getting our hands dirty, by
working and working like hell, admittedly, to change things. You are the
people that have to put pressure on the trade unions. It won't mean much
coming from me. You're the people that put pressure on the police force.
It's obvious that they aren't going to listen to me. So you see what I mean
you are the people that can change things, but you're operating from
basically racist point of view, every one you. The saddest thing about it is
that when people tell you that you're racist, you get up in arms and say
‘man, I'm not a racist, don't believe it. Never have, never will.’
00:17:09
I contend that you are because you cannot help being anything else, in a
society that governs every institution the way as this society does, the
racism is bound to show up and it's bound to show up in the products of
that institution, education. What we mistakenly call education is actually
social training. You get one side of history. That side is naturally distorted
because you're leaving the other side out, you can't possibly know the
truth about your own history unless you know the history and the truth
about the history of related peoples and nobody could tell me that black
and white people in this country haven't been related.
00:17:59
The relation admittedly has been one of oppressed to oppressor but that
relationship says a great deal and it shapes the history. We haven't talked
about it, we haven't talked about it honestly. We run around thinking that
George Washington was a great man, fantastic man, fought the - fought
for freedom on all levels while he held 42 slaves. We call Abraham Lincoln
the great emancipator. You have to realize that Lincoln was only human.
I'm sorry to destroy any myths that you may have built up. I hope you don't
cry yourself to sleep tonight over the fact that Lincoln was indeed human
and necessarily a product of his times. He himself said in a letter to
Horace Greeley that what he was concerned with was saving the Union.
00:19:00
If he could do that by freeing half the slaves he would, if he could do it by
not freeing any of the slaves, well then, he’d do it too, but to him, the Black
people would always be second-class citizens. That's understandable,
because he was dealing from that orientation in the society and I think that
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 7
we've perpetuated it just about long enough. We're waking up to the fact,
or some of us are, that black people are like any other people. We're
good, we're bad, we're beautiful and we're ugly, just like you. We aren't
asking anybody to distort history in our favor. We can't do that otherwise
we'd be just as bad as the people that wrote the history before. What
we're asking for is the truth.
00:20:07
What determines a person's humanity today is in large part what he did
yesterday. You recognize a person is human in relation to what group he
comes from in correlation to what you know about that group and you
know damn little about my group. You know certain things for facts, made
a hell a lot of watermelon and I'm congenitally happy but in fact there's
nothing for me to be happy about. I sing songs and dance and try to get
into every white woman the bed that I see. These are myths.
00:21:00
Myths that were necessarily initiated but foolishly perpetrated-perpetuated--because at the time of slavery, you had to have some sort of
rationale for doing what you were doing. So you said: ‘okay, these are
subhuman beings so we can do anything we damn please to them.’ But
somewhere along the line, we became human beings as individuals, still
not as a group, we haven't reached that status as a group yet, but you
begin to see individuals within that group who did have certain human
characteristics. We cried when you hit us, we laughed when you tickled
us, we even fell in love. All that, all that which you consider human.
00:22:04
So we acquired as a group a sort of three-fifths human status, and you
realized that you no longer do this sort of thing to us, so you didn't enslave
us physically anymore, the mental chains are still there however. Chains
were put there intentionally. Berlin Conference 1885, I think, where the
major powers of Europe were splitting up the continent of Africa. They
decided that no African history would be taught except in relation to Egypt
and Egypt only as it related to the building of the Greek and Roman
empires, you can't possibly talk about the Greek and Roman Empire
without talking about Egypt, anybody that's taken history knows that.
Anybody who's taken history ought to know that you can't possibly talk
about civilization on any level without talking about the primary civilizations
in the Nile Valley.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 8
00:23:11
You've got to go back all the way. England didn't just spring up overnight.
It has, it had its predecessors and you know nothing about it. I think
education is the key. More specifically, I think that Afro-American history is
the key to solving many of the problems that we have now, and you're the
people that can get it into the curriculum not only at this school but every
school in the state. I'd like to see it in every school in the country, but I'm
no dreamer. I'm at least realistic enough to realize that not every state is
going to allow this. Frankly, I'd be very surprised if Minnesota did.
00:24:11
But as I said, you people do have a great deal of power and you're
wasting it. I ran into a--not really a friend, but a guy who went to high
school with, and my high school was so small that I couldn't help noticing
him every day. He said he'd really like to get involved. I said ‘good.’ He
said ‘but it'd have to be next fall, because I'm traveling this summer.’
Where are your priorities? Travel if you wish. If things go on the way they
are going on one summer, you may travel and not have a place to come
home to. Because we're tired of talking.
00:25:14
[Long Pause]
00:25:18
And we're dealing with what is a revolutionary question. The answers are
actually in history. History has been distorted so we can't see them there.
History at best is not what went on, but what we think went on. With the
form of history that we teach is a form that that portrays what we wish had
gone on, which seems to me to be a supreme insult to the intelligence of
every single one of us that are taking it, except we're conditioned to take
that sort of insult. Realize your own worth as individuals and you won’t be
able to. Go into history classes and laugh at your professors because
they're telling you totally ridiculous things.
00:26:31
Ask them, ask them what happened to all the Black people during the two
hundred years that cowboys were roaming around. What happened to
them? Put him on a boat and go back to Africa? No, they were there. I
once saw Sammy Davis doing an impression of a cowboy. Thought it was
the funniest thing I'd ever seen. Man, yeah a big white hat on and two
guns and was walking bowlegged, and all that I just fell out laughing,
called people ‘hey man, look at this! This n****** thinks he's a cowboy.’
Well it's true. The Black people made up the main body of what you call
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 9
the cowboys and the really bad cats, I mean the mean ones you never
heard of.
00:27:25
We were cowboys. Not only did we - we fought Indians, we rode with
Sitting Bull, we helped capture Sitting Bull, we played a very important role
when building this country, and I don't mean only physically. I don't mean
that we just built the houses. We built the heritage of what is now America,
and sometimes I'm ashamed to admit it but it's true. We're the people that
you're talking about when you talk about the people that persevered, that's
us. Because there's no more persevering group of people in this country.
We've been here fourteen straight generations, almost one hundred
percent American born and there's no other group like that but in every
single one of your stupid wars, everyone of them and right now the
frontlines of Vietnam look like the football team from Howard University.
00:28:41
We've died for you, we've fought for you, we've sweated for you and got
nothing in return. I've been operating under the mistaken assumption that
we have some sort of legitimate responsibility to this country but we can't
possibly have a responsibility in this country because we don't see
ourselves reflected in it anywhere, not in the political system, and certainly
not in its history, so we can't feel like we're a part of it. The only way we
see ourselves reflected is in the myths, the sexual myths and the others,
the stereotypes, Amos 'n' Andy--Amos 'n' Andy isn't me. That's about all I
have to say.
00:29:30
[Mary Howard] [Laughing] I don't think it's really all he has to say, and
there will be--I want to leave time for questions, I don't know, this morning
it was rather quiet. You've had time to think it over, so we'd like to hear
about it this afternoon. I'm sure you don't agree with all of us. I'll give you
one fact that perhaps we'll eventually get in history books. In Virginia,
Nevada, one of the best divorce areas in the country, outside of Alabama,
you can run in there, and stay for a few days and get a divorce, there is a
monument to a person known as Bloody Mary.
00:30:08
Bloody Mary ran a house of prostitution, she was one of the richest
women in Virginia Minn- Virginia, [laughs] Nevada, [clears money] I don't
know about Virginia, Minnesota. A lot of the money that she made went
into building of San Francisco and nobody knows about her unless you
happen to go to Virginia, Nevada it's - right a few miles outside of Reno. I
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 10
have an announcement to make: Dudley Riggs Brave New Workshop will
present a one-half hour specially written drama for our One Day in May in
Melby Hall at 4:30. There is no charge. The evening session with Milt
Williams1 will begin at 6:30 and held in the College Center Lobby.
00:30:50
Now, Ellen said initially that she didn't want to say anything except in
response to questions and we pumped her now, or primed her or
something and she wants to make a few comments before we open it up
to you, ok?
00:31:05
[Ellen O’Neil] I wanted to go back to some of the comments that Mr.
Palosaari had made, and this is one very basic area in the area of
attitudes. And he talked about his youngster who would perhaps be facing
many attitudes when he got to the teenage years of dating and courtship
and this kind of thing. You know, I think one of the big test questions in our
society is: would you want your daughter to marry one and this always
comes up in most conversations that, you know, you'll be involved with
and I think because of this we structure our society in in a way that it
makes it very unlikely that little Johnny who happens to be Black and little
Mary who happens to be white will ever get together and so that this - this
type of thing, this fear of any kind of interracial communication, I think, has
a great deal to do with the way we see our society structured.
00:32:12
As far as attitudes are concerned. Now I happen to be married to a man
who happens to be Black, and so you find yourself constantly being
confronted with all kinds of attitudes. They may not be overt like bricks
crashing through the window or anything, you know spectacular like this,
but they're very subtle, condescending, patronizing kinds of things that I'd
like to share with you. You perhaps have had these kinds of reactions or
have seen these kinds of things happen. Of course, the first question that
anybody will want to know was ‘how did you two ever get together?’ You
know this is a real puzzling kind of question it seemed, ‘you know, a nice
girl like you’ I had people say to me and this is a common response.
00:33:06
Another thing is "oh, but the children" and I'm sure you've all heard this.
Well, in this society of ours, if you're one thirty-secondth of a Black man,
you're considered a Black man in the society, so it really doesn't make any
difference, the child is Black as far as our society is concerned, so that
1
The former name of Mahmoud El-Kati
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 11
usually takes care of that question. Another interesting kind of thing that
you get are the curiosity seekers and you get many invitations to dinner,
you know, and they want to see how you act and how you eat and, you
know, if you're just like they are and so it goes.
00:33:52
Another thing, you are identified as a Black person. For instance, the other
evening I was talking to someone about politics and we were discussing
the candidates, and he immediately said: "Oh no, you couldn't be for
McCarthy, because Negroes don't like McCarthy." So this is another bag
that people fall into. So, as I said they're very subtle but the disaster about
them is that they don't respect you as an individual and look at you as a
person you know. You're this type of person or you're treated in a special
way, and you know it just makes it all worse and another thing
stereotypes, you know the girl who happens to marry a black man, well
there's there's a whole list and I'm sure you're pretty much aware of them.
She has to be a beatnik, or a neurotic, or someone with loose morals, or
all sorts of things that people are hung up about. So, I just wanted to throw
these things out to you and maybe we can get some response.
00:35:06
[Mary Howard] One more comment [laughs] I'm sorry about that. Not
directly on sex and racism, but have you ever thought about the fact that
it's peculiar that the white person has been so weak and so incapable of
thinking for himself that laws had to be set up to protect him from the
Negro, i.e. you may not go to school with the Negroes, you may not eat in
their restaurants, you may not do this, that or the other--not to protect us,
nobody thought about us, but to protect the white person? It was
necessary to set up these laws? Comments? Questions, reactions, to the
panel? Yes I think [inaudible] was up first, no status involved here.
00:35:55
[Inaudible question from the audience that gets interrupted]
00:35:57
[Mary Howard] One of the problems we have was that the questions could
not be heard earlier, will you scream please?
00:36:04
[Audience member asks question, inaudible]
00:36:13
[Sumner Jones] One Afro-American history text?
00:36:15
Audience Member: Yes.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 12
00:36:22
[Sumner Jones] Oh man. W.E.B Du Bois is coming out with a nineteen
volume [laughter] history. You've got, you've got many, man, go to New
York some time, go to the Schomburg Collection in Manhattan, an entire
library.
00:36:42
[Audience Member] What is one good one volume history book you
recommend?
00:36:45
[Sumner Jones] I wouldn't recommend a one volume history. I wouldn't do
it. If you, if you want a bibliography of books, we've got them at The Way.
We've got a bibliography of, you know, something like a million books.
Read them all. [Laughter]
00:37:09
[Mary Howard] Sumner, I think what - what he's saying it's, you know, it's
sort of like beer, you have to start with a little bit first, and they can't read
them all and he can't assign them all at one time. Ellen, did you-?
00:37:21
[Ellen O’Neil] One basic text that we've been using in minority history
classes, is Before the Mayflower by Lerone Bennett which gives you, it's it's sketchy, you know, but it gives you a start, you know, It's very well
written.
00:37:41
[Mary Howard] Oh and another one suggested was Crisis in Black and
White by Charles Silberman. The gentleman here.
00:37:55
[Audience Member asks question, inaudible]
00:38:06
[Sumner Jones] It's got to be a separate course.
00:38:05
[Audience Member continues with their question]
00:38:14
[Mary Howard] I think--may I? Just a general comment. The pendulum has
to go all the way to the other side before it can get back in your history
books and I think maybe now it does have to be a separate course and
then integrated with, so that you do have a correct history of America, but
right now, it's got to be separate because there's so much that's been left
out and as all textbooks are pieces will have to be picked out to be tucked
in, appropriately, but right now it can't be.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 13
00:38:42
[Sumner Jones] Right now I think it's very important that the students
begin to recognize the fact that, you know, when you talk about
Washington DC, it was a Black man that designed it. I think that's
important or if you sneak that into a history course, just straight American
history course. People are going to be outraged, because I don't think that
history should have to label in terms of Black and white, it shouldn't have
to, but it does now and it's got to be in a separate course.
00:39:23
[Audience member] In our society, it seems that a white man has
[inaudible] had a right to a Negro woman if he wants, but a white girl does
not have the right to have a Negro man. And this relationship between the
sexes seems rather peculiar and I wonder if this says something very
bad--or says that our concept of the relationship between the man and the
woman in American society is somehow basically wrong.
00:39:59
[Mary Howard] The question was that, in our society it's been alright for a
white man to have a Negro woman, but not for a Negro male--and I
haven't decided what I want to call me either--a Negro male to have a
white woman. Joe would like to respond to that is that the gist, I know you
said more than that but is that the gist? He says there's something wrong
with our society in this respect right, is that close enough?
00:40:32
[Audience member] It seems to show a kind of pathology in our
understanding of the meaning of sex, and the relatinoship between man
and woman.
00:40:38
[Mary Howard] He says it's pathological, it's neurotic to have this kind of
set-up in terms of our sexual and inter-human relationships.
00:40:49
[Joe O’Neil] Well, for one thing, that certainly has put the, the white man
has been in a very advantageous position, he's been in a position of
having his cake and eating it too. I'm glad you mentioned that, because in
one AAE class, Armchair Adult Education, class, here, recently, this deals
in minority history, a lady wanted--I asked her why did she, what did she
believe was the reason for so many different colors and hair textures and
facial features among Black people and she said: "Well, I just thought they
came that way" you know.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 14
00:41:32
And I pointed out to her that, you know, all of this cry about integration,
you know, integration has been going on since slavery times, but it has
been going on in a one-way street like you've mentioned. The white male
who enjoyed it, so I always feel that the white woman certainly has been
discriminated against, and deprived, and I go along with Thurgood
Marshall is that, many parents apparently does not give their daughters
too much credit for having very much intelligence, you know, they could
always say ‘no,’ but they don't want to give them that freedom they want to
say ‘no’ for them, you know, and earlier Mrs. Howard mentioned that she
had been accosted on the streets in Alabama. I'm here to tell her that I've
lived across this nation, from Los Angeles to Boston, and this is a problem
for Black women all across this nation, including many activists.
00:42:32
And if you don't believe it, you can go down on Hennepin Avenue tonight,
and I will show you. And the men who patronize these women, prostitutes,
are middle-class people because poor people can't afford them, and
certainly not Black men. I don't say that this is anything that makes one
necessarily superior or inferior, it's a fact of life, what I'm trying to say as
you see the rabid racists of the South, many of them have participated in
nighttime integration.
00:43:09
Some of you, perhaps, have wondered why of the interracial marriages
that does occur that most of it is from the Black man, white woman
relationship. Well that's very easily explained, in my opinion, you see the
white man he can go out and leave the suburbs and come to the city and
and play, and go back, and he's still respected in his community, but most
importantly is his status and economics plays a part. So the Black man
has been economically deprived all his life, so really don't have that much
to lose, and well I do admire any woman, I'm one of those who do not like
to be told what I can and cannot do, and to the extent possible I'm going to
do what I feel that I should do, regardless of what society says.
00:44:01
I have certain standards that I abide by, but I not only try very hard, I
believe that I am so secure within myself as a person I don't have to worry
too much about what Johnny John does next door or how you may part
your hair. I feel that I'm an individual, and I have a right, and it makes me
less of a human not to feel that I can do things that satisfy whatever
standards that I may have. Now, I don't know whether I answered your
question about that, this is a very strong point with me, because this has
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 15
been something that has been kept under the rug for quite so long, and it's
so obvious, you know, that something has been going on. I mean there
have been some jumping over the fences and things like this, and the very
ones who shout the most about so-called miscegenation and all of this are
the very ones who are the most guilty of it.
00:45:08
[Mary Howard] We're gonna let one of the minority members of the panel
say something. [Laughter]2
00:45:15
[Ron Palosaari] Lilian Anthony covered this this morning, we talked about
so I'd just like to mention some of the things we mentioned. One thing of
course is that given the situation of slavery it was very easy for the white
man to take advantage of the Negro woman but obviously not for the
Negro man to do anything about it and in this case there grew up a split in
the white man's mind which I really believe in where the Negro woman
became associated with that which was animal about sex, whereas they
could elevate the white woman who was not been a sexual object
because she became a symbol of purity. A man wants a woman in two
places, one on a pedestal, the other in the bed, and it's a very easy
division, when you put mentally the Negro woman in the bed and the white
woman on the pedestal which happened in the South and which has
affected the North.
00:45:52
Now consequently, the Negro woman became associate with sexuality
and, as Richard Sargent mentioned this morning, in his southern town, it
seemed like white men sometimes need to go down to the Negro district,
there they could be quote unquote ‘evil,’ then they could come back to the
white district and again be church members and again be pure but that
was the place where they could expose, you know, the darker side of
themselves, to use the language. At the same time, though, something
else happened and that is when when the white woman was assumed to
be so sexually pure, holy, and the Negro man was associated with that
which was brutish for animal like, that stereotype, the Negro male became
sexually charged. Until now we have the situation where I believe--and I
think of course that this varies a great deal, you know, as to what what the
individual is--but the Negro male and the Negro female both are sexually
charged, partly to the white community, partly because they're forbidden,
partly because of prejudices, partly because of the remnant of slavery.
2
This is presumably a joke due to composition of the panel: three Black panelists and two white panelists.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 16
00:46:49
As I mentioned this morning it seems to me that one of the reasons for the
popularity of these dark stockings is that on the on the white girl they
suggest, at least, that she was Negro from the waist down and white from
the waist [laughter] up I think, I really think they carry a positive sexual
charge [one person claps] A stocking manufacturer back there is-[laughter]. But now I am not saying that all of you who are white, or all of
us for a white, have this, you know, to the same degree but I think it is a
part of our society and I think our fear of Negro sexuality is there. In
“Guess Who's Coming to Dinner”3 that's the only love picture I've seen in
twenty years, where the only kiss was through a mirror in the backseat of
a car, you only got a glimpse of it, you see. Think if it had been a white
couple, you know, there'd been necking scene after necking scene, but
still on the film they are so afraid of Negro sexuality, they had to be just
suggested through a bumpy mirror.
00:47:53
[Mary Howard] Others? Yes.
00:47:57
[Audience member] Well I think what Mr Palosaari has said, since I might
take a course from him next year, I agree with him one hundred percent.
[laughter] But I think that this is really quite true and I think that a book that
shows this is
00:48:10
[Mary Howard] Come here. [sound of microphone adjusting]
00:48:11
[Ron Palosaari] Yup, if he's gonna agree with me, let him speak up.
[Laughter]
00:48:14
[Audience member] Well I think that a book that really shows this,
strangely enough, would be Lady Chatterley, where she didn't want to be
on this pedestal, and she didn't want to be honored, she wanted to, you
know, the way we tend to put the white woman on this pedestal, she
wanted to be more or less the sexual and passionate nature that that we
tend to associate, I think the Negro woman, with somewhat and she had a
terrible time getting along with society, no one would respect her at all
because of this. And so I think this is shown, and another thing that I
wanted to say before is on the question of inter-marriage, when I was
3
A 1967 film starring Sindey Poitier in which a white woman brings a Black man (Poitier) home to meet
her parents.
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 17
working at St. Mary's Hospital the night that Dr. King was assassinated,
and of course everyone in the place was talking about it, and some people
said ‘good, we got another one out of the way.’
00:49:02
Which I felt like walking off the job right there, I almost did but since I'm
poor I stayed [laughter].
00:49:11
[Sumner Jones] Wise decision.
00:49:12
[Audience member] and anyway this one woman of course talked about it
and she said ‘oh, I think it's a terrible thing, it's awful’ and she went on and
on like this and I know they're wonderful people and implying they're
wonderful people as long as they stay, you know, away from my
neighborhood and then finally she said ‘oh, but of course I don't believe in
intermarriage.’ And she went on like this and I'm thinking this woman is
saying well I'm not prejudiced, however I am prejudiced it is what it
amounts to.
00:49:34
[Mary Howard] Thank you. You may be interested to know that the first
time a jury in the South got concerned about murder and mutilation of a
Negro was, when a Negro male was castrated, the white League of
Women Voters got together and decided that there had to be a
prosecution for that, and that was the first time and that was within the last
ten years. Maybe sex and racism don't go together I don't know. There
was another question. Yes, kind of behind the pole, yeah.
00:50:12
[Inaudible question from the audience]
00:50:29
[Mary Howard] Against the what?
00:50:33
[Audience member continues speaking]
00:50:39
[Mary Howard] She wants to know if anyone on a panel would comment
on the pressure of economic power against the Black man?
00:50:47
[Audience member continues speaking]
00:50:59
[Mary Howard] Okay, because of the relationship between sex and
economics, Joe?
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 18
00:51:03
[Joe O’Neil] In my opinion, there very definitely is a relationship. First, it
starts with the status I think, you see, if the black man has an equal
opportunity for economic development, this puts him in a position where in
our society women, white women are taught to really look for security in a
marriage. I really feel this is about love. And it certainly is a challenge and
it represents a lot of competition to the white man for the Black man to be
in an equal or even surpass him in his economic capacity to provide for a
wife a home and so have you, so there's a very definite relationship.
00:51:53
This goes hand-in-hand with, also, if the Black man is not able to assert
his masculinity, this also served to degrade him not only in the eyes of his,
of white women but in the eyes of black women also. There very definitely
is a relationship between economics and sex now I'm one of those who
feel, among others, that economics is the basis of racism as well as
certainly a vital factor in the sex versus economics issue.
00:52:42
[Sumner Jones] Well, I expect that from you Joyce, really would. Joyce is
an anthropologist, and they come up with all sorts of weird things
[laughter]. There is definite correlation between sex, a definite relationship
between sex, and economics. This relationship as it exists now obviously
just makes some white men more desirable than the Black man, even to a
white woman. If you want something of a secure relationship,
economically, which I think is what white women, certainly, young women
are trained to look for. Now what can you give to you? In fact that's the
basis of love.
00:53:34
Why do you love Johnny? Well because he comes from a Boston family,
he's got a yacht, limousine and all that, not simply because I do which is
the only legitimate reason it seems to me. So, that puts the Black man in a
bad position as far as acquiring some sort of mate by these standards, by
these standards only. If it doesn't come that it, doesn't become that
important when you're talking about Black women. Because our culture
has a totally different sort of orientation to economics and to what money
is all about. Money is that which you use to get what you want which
excludes a woman because most of you who are from ghetto areas, I'm
speaking obviously to the Black students, know damned well that the
money gathered is often the woman, which is fine, you know, this is just
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 19
an interesting twist in the in the rule because there's more of a demand for
the Black woman on the part of the white man.
00:54:49
He wants to marry and the white woman wants to marry for security, you
see. This becomes really involved--and I'm sort of thinking it through as
they go along--wants to get married for security but she has the same
sexual drives as everybody else, don't try to deny it. I've seen too many of
you in action. [Laughter] The Black woman, however, isn't taught that
security is the important thing when approaching marriage, that love is. So
she's not after security, however money is necessary so when the white
man comes down, which happens all the time because he puts his woman
up on that pedestal and you can only go to bed with your woman in order
to have kids and after you have so many kids, man you just can't afford no
more. So when he gets that urge in the middle of the night, he comes
down to Plymouth Avenue.
00:55:43
Now, the woman can do exactly the same thing, but she has to pay for it
as well in many different ways, new cars, you know, apartments, stereos,
all that. So you're dealing with two totally different orientations to money
and, in a purely Black to Black relationship, it doesn't matter that much
when we're talking about the typical Black culture. You know white to
white or white to Black relationship, it really does matter a great deal
because whites are trained if you love in terms of security, in terms of
material gain.
00:56:42
[Mary Howard] I understand that there was a lot of--that some students felt
that they would be interested in this today and some felt that there would
be very apathetic. Your presence, I think speaks, for itself. I hope that
maybe we can continue this kind of dialogue and discussion at another
time. We have run out of time, I'm being pressured by Ron to ask - permit
one more question and we'll have to make it very short. Penny?
00:57:02
[Audience member asking question, inaudible]
00:57:16
[Mary Howard] One minute, he's gonna answer it already.
00:57:18
[Joe O’Neil] No, I do not. Why should it be necessary to destroy one race,
why should it be necessary to destroy a Black race. I'm very very pleased
with what I am. I can enjoy everything that anyone else in this room can
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 20
enjoy as I am, and I feel that that's a very coward way of not meeting the
issue head-on. Look, I don't advocate--I don't advocate even though I
have an interracial marriage, I don't necessarily advocate that, I don't
necessarily advocate marriage [laughter]. I advocate what you know two
people whatever they decide that they want to do this is what they should
do. Now, I've heard that asked many times. I certainly do not, and I and I
don't really feel that this is going to come about, because I for one when
certainly fighting with all means that I would have at my disposal.
00:58:07
[Mary Howard] Ron wants the last word.
00:58:10
[Ron Palosaari] I think when couples want to marry they, you know, they
should but it shouldn't be a social program. But I do think I do think that
that here again the interracial adoption does get children, you know Black
children, mixed children, into into places where they otherwise wouldn't be
and the people on our block now are integrated whether they want to be or
not. Sumner wanted one last word. [Laughter].
00:58:33
[Sumner Jones] I think that what we're dealing with is a question that has
to be dealt with. It's a question of recognizing humanity, where humanity
does exist. Now, if we were to intermarry whites and Blacks, you refuse
humanity to some other group, and I know that there are other groups that
you refuse humanity to. So, it's not a question of, you know, ‘let's mingle
and wipe out the problem.’ What we want to do is get a culture accepted
as a legitimate culture, a way of life as a legitimate way of life although it
may be different than yours and if you can't do it with Black people, you
can't do it with anybody. So the questions cannot possibly be solved by
massive intermarriages. It can only be solved by confronting the real
problem which isn't Black people. The problem is not Black people, it's
your way of thinking about not only Black people but any other group that
happens to be in the minority. The only minority problem is the majority.
00:59:41
[Mary Howard] Thank you very, very much.
00:59:48
[Applause]
[The recording ends at 00:59:54]
“Sex and Racism” afternoon panel discussion (transcript), page 21
Show less
Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral histo... Show more
Khadra Mohamed 0:01
Hi, today is Wednesday, April 21 2021. My name is Khadra Mohamed. I am a student of
Augsburg University. I'm here to do my project of oral history for Muslims in Minnesota. I'm here
with sister Sharon Tomas el Amin. And I want to thank her for participating my oral history today,
sister Sharon, welcome. And please introduce yourself.
Sharon Al-Emin 0:33
Thank you. Thank you Sister Khadra. Again, my name is Sharon Al Emin. I am a African
American Muslim woman. I have been here in the Twin Cities area for over 30 years. I am
married with three children that also resides in the Twin Cities area. I don't know how do you
want me to give you a little bit more? Yes. I currently serve as Minneapolis school board director
for our North Side schools here in the Minneapolis area. My full time position, I work for
Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. I work in the finance division, where I do accounts
payable. So that is my full time job. In addition to that, I serve as the mosque food coordinator, I
volunteer my time to help with a lot of the food projects that go on at the masjid. So that's just a
little bit about who I am. What I do, and I'm sure we'll get a little further into detail about who I
am and what I represent.
Khadra Mohamed 1:38
Yes, thank you. So you told me about, you said you have been in the Twin Cities For how long?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:49
It'll be 30 years. It'll be 30 years soon here. So about 30 years. Yes. Yeah. So
Khadra Mohamed 1:54
tell me about where you from where you born, where you've been raised?
Sharon Al-Emin 1:58
Okay. Yep. So Chicago is my hometown, Chicago, Illinois. Born and raised there. My father, my
mother and father both lived there. My father still resides in a home that we were raised in. My
mother passed away from breast cancer when I was 16 years of age. So at a very young age,
she was 43 years old. So just very, very hard time for me as a young mother at that time to be
without my mom. And so I had to grow up very quickly, because I was responsible for another
person that was looking up to me as mom now. So Chicago is my hometown. My family is a
family of seven. I have there's four girls, and there are three boys. Currently, two of my brothers
have passed away, but the five of us are still living. So I come from a pretty large family. I was
raised, and Christian religion. So going to church, you know, celebrating the Easter holidays, or
Christmas holidays was all part of my childhood. When I relocated to Minneapolis area when I
was 19 20 years of age, is when I relocated to the Twin Cities area. My husband and I had met
when he was in Chicago, in the University of Chicago for school, we met there, he kinda, you
know, made the decision to come back home. And I slowly came behind him to the Twin Cities
area. So my husband, as you know, his Imam Makram. At the time when we met, he was not
the Imam he was, you know, a young Muslim man, that was, you know, definitely still practicing
his religion. And we both began to study it together. So at that time, I moved to Minnesota back
in 1990 1990. And I remember 91 was when the terrible snowstorm hit, and I was like, why did I
move to this place, but every week located in 1990, with my now husband, and I began to study
the religion back in 1991, studied it for about two years myself, just again, wanting to make sure
that I understood what Islam it was this you know, something that I could live up to wasn't
something that I could see myself, being proud of me being my life. And so after studying and
seeing the beauty, and the religion of Islam and understanding the role of the woman and
understanding how Islam strengthens us and make us stronger, connects our families and
connects our community. And really, just gives you the opportunity to live the best life that you
can. I took my Shahada in 1992 and I've been Muslim ever since a, again, African American
Muslim woman practicing my religion every single day. Right now we're going through the month
of Ramadan. And I must say that every time I read the Quran, I walk away with something new,
something different, a different understanding, a more heightened understanding of our religion.
And so for me, Islam is my way. I am proud to be a African American Muslim woman here in my
religion able to stand for what I believe.
Khadra Mohamed 5:44
Yes, thank you, Sharon. So you touched about that your mom passed away? When you were 16
years old?
Sharon Al-Emin 5:59
16 years of age? Yes.
Khadra Mohamed 6:00
Um, yeah. And then you had someone who was dependent on you did you had a sinling.
Sharon Al-Emin 6:07
I actually had a I was a teen mom. So I was a teen mom. Yes. So my daughter, my daughter, I
had actually just given birth to my daughter a couple months before she passed away. And so I
was young, you know, I was with a baby and then lost my mom, it was a very, very, very hard
time for me. But fortunately, I had my older sisters, my father, you know, still to this day is still
very present in my life. And I was able to stay grounded. And understand that I had a
responsibility. Now, that was dependent on me. So I had to grow up fast. I always say I had to
mature, I had to accept the responsibility and become a woman very, very, very fast in my life.
So
Khadra Mohamed 6:54
yes, that's, that's very early age to be mom and raise a kid and at the same time lost your,
Unknown Speaker 7:04
your mother,
Khadra Mohamed 7:07
it was not easy. Then you say you had two brothers?
Sharon Al-Emin 7:12
I have, I actually have three brothers. Okay. Two that have passed away, and one that's still
living. So out of the seven, there are five of us that are still living, and I myself and my sister are
the only two that are in Minnesota, all the other still reside in Chicago.
Khadra Mohamed 7:34
Okay, um, tell me about your dad.
Sharon Al-Emin 7:41
My father. He's amazing. He's a, you know, black African American man, who has always been
there for his family. He is currently still living, he will be 84 this year in sha Allah, still able to
pretty much get around himself. My father was he was a truck driver all his life. So again, you
know, came to the era where education was very limited. He had a sixth grade, high school
education. And then, you know, like all the others back in 1938, when he was born, you know,
so, living during living during those times, when it was about survival. It was about surviving for
your family. And they, he knew the importance of education, but surviving was even more more
of a responsibility for him. So providing for his family. So my father is, he's an amazing man who
still today, he still goes to the churches every Sunday to practice his religion. And we still talk
once a week, once a week here. Yes. Great,
Khadra Mohamed 8:53
great. Um, so you've converted to Islam. Can you tell me more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 9:05
Yes, I took my Shahada, what is known as the declaration when you become a Muslim, you
have to take your Shahada. So you have to stand before and submit, submit to yourself and
take the declaration of owning Islam as your way in submit to not being forced. And doing this
under your own will and under your own accord. I studied Islam for I want to say about two
years before I made the decision, because again, I wanted to understand, I wanted to
understand what it meant to be a Muslim. I wanted to understand the five pillars in Islam. I
wanted to understand the prayer in Islam and what it meant for the woman you know, to wear
the hijab and how she was to carry herself and how she is the nurture of the home All those
things were very critical to me. So I took it upon myself to begin studying the Quran to study,
read lots of different books to study, different Hadees and learn about our Prophet Mohammed
salatu salam in just making sure again, that it was something that I understood that I felt like I
could live up to and be able to answer any questions or answer to my Lord, as to why this is
something that I have chosen to do.
Khadra Mohamed 10:35
Thank you. That's amazing. Yeah, for you to be able to learn, you're the new religion that you
have just converted and be able to answer questions and all that. So I know you've touched
about the role of the woman. Can you tell me a little bit more about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 11:05
Yeah, and you know, and I say in Islam, but it's really no different in all the religions right? As a
mother, we are the nurturers, right. So we are the mothers, we are the doctors, we are the
teachers we are, you know, we are the ones who try to make sure our home is held in the right
way we are, we are the nurturers. So we are the ones that care for our children we do for our
children were at the schools, were educating our children, we are doing all these things. Islam is
just a reminder of the role that we as women play. And so the beauty to me when it when Islam,
it just shows again how, as a woman, we have our roles, right and I, I say roles in a very lenient
way. Because it doesn't restrict us that we can only do just that. We know that again, being
leaders in our home that we can step out and lead in any way because we have had this
experience and our homes. But it's time again, it just it raises the woman on a highest of levels,
right when we talk about women in Islam, and we read about the different stories from our
Prophet, and we know of the stories when when someone was less came to the Prophet x the
story about who should he go to, when he was dealing with this difficult situation. And the
Prophet directed him to his mother. And he said, then Who, and he said, Your mother, and then
he said, and then who he said, Your mother again, and then your father. And so in just seeing
the emphasis and the weight that we as women carry on us, it gets to be very heavy, and
overwhelming. But Allah does not place anything on us that we cannot bear. And and that's a
reminder for me, as a woman as I try to fulfill my role in my home, as a wife, right? As a sister,
as a friend, as a sister in Islam and trying to do the different things that we do in our massages
in our mosque. Those are all the little reminders that remind me that yes, I am a woman. But at
the same time we have to understand that Allah wouldn't put anything on us greater than we
can bear.
Khadra Mohamed 13:33
Yes, thank you so much for sharing that shirt. Um, I also want to ask you about your education.
And when you were you went to university or school.
Sharon Al-Emin 13:47
Yep. So again, my my education is in Illinois. So I graduated from Chicago Public Schools. I
have attended some community colleges here in the Twin Cities area and actually more online
abroad. So I have two years of business in my associates degree towards that. So again,
business is my strength. But I find so many different areas where my passion drives me
towards. Right and so I have my bachelor's in business.
Khadra Mohamed 14:28
Um, you have you mentioned that you had worked with the sheriff's office. Could you tell us
about that?
Sharon Al-Emin 14:39
I work for the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office. Right here, downtown Minneapolis area. I have
actually been with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Office for six years now. I work in the finance
division. So again, the accounts payable really had on and a lot of the accounts, set up
accounts, making sure that The bills and stuff for the sheriff's department are within budget and
are being paid within a correct manner. So I am a civilian within the Hennepin County Sheriff's
Department, which again, just kinda is the public service, public service work that I continue to
do for my community.
Khadra Mohamed 15:23
Yeah, um, you also mentioned that you are on the board of Minneapolis Public Schools.
Sharon Al-Emin 15:30
Yep.
Khadra Mohamed 15:30
Um, can you tell me more about that? And what have driven you to go on that route?
Sharon Al-Emin 15:37
Yes, sure. So I recently elected to the Minneapolis school board, I took my seat in January of
this year, January 2021. School Board is a four year term that we serve, it is an elected position
that the community election, you and you have the opportunity to serve your community. Within
the Minneapolis school board, it is structured with nine other school board, representatives. And
so I am one of the nine, we pretty much govern the school district, and the policies, and again,
the budget, the finances, and how the school is governed. We have our main, we supervise the
superintendent of the school. So that is our job to make sure that the superintendent is serving
our communities, our families, and the best way that they can. And so for me my passion. I
again, I have three children, although my children have went to Minneapolis Public Schools, and
so I had the opportunity to be in the schools, I had the opportunity to build relationships with my
children's teachers, I know the importance of having a parent present within the school, and
whether that's physically present or just communication, right, just make sure that that teacher
and that that school knows that you support them, you are there for your child, and you are your
child's number one fan, if you will, number one cheerleader, right, and that you will be there to
support them all the way. And so I I built lots of relationships throughout my children's school
here. I was president of parent organizations, I have set on site councils, again, to make sure
that our schools have what they need the resources that they need, in order for our children to
succeed. It gave me an opportunity to see how our system and as we know, today, our system
is is continuing to fail our children, and especially our black and brown children, right. And so my
passion for me is was to get on this board to learn more, and to be able to bring it back to my
community. Because the more that we as parents are educated about how the school system
works, the more that we can challenge them about the resources and question and understand
where the dollars are coming from, where they're going, and how much more we need. Right.
And so for me, I saw that a lot of it wasn't that our parents were not actively involved in their
children's education. Sometimes we just didn't know. We just didn't know. It was the school not
communicating to us, as black and brown parents the best way that they can, it was the school
system, judging our lifestyles as a way to say that we are not committed right or that we are not
involved in our children life. And so for me, it's it's a cycle, it's the system. It's the status quo that
needs to be broken. But in order for us to do that, we have to be more educated, we have to
understand, and we have to be able to mobilize our community and bring our parents and our
mothers together. Mothers fathers, and when I say parents, I'm not just talking about mothers
and fathers, right, because sometimes a parent shows up as an older sister. Sometimes the
parents shows up as the it, who's at home, while the mother is trying to work, right? Sometimes
the parent shows up as that uncle who has a little more time and flexibility in his schedule, why
the dad is trying to go out and provide for his family. And so when I say parent I'm speaking very
broad. In terms of parent I'm not just talking about mother and father. Are we freezing up here?
Khadra Mohamed 20:05
I had a little bit of internet issue there.
Sharon Al-Emin 20:10
So I'm not sure if you miss much. But again, when I, when I'm talking about parent involvement
is very broad. It's from all different avenues, not just a mother and father, it's whoever we can
get to represent that child and to be by that child side during that time when needed. So, yeah,
so that is my passion. That is what drove me to run for school board. Again, we have to, I say,
all the time, we have to occupy the seats, so that we can understand and so that our children
can see see us and all these different ways and all these different models, and know that they
can be in these different roles and models, too. So.
Khadra Mohamed 20:54
Okay, thank you, Sharon, for sharing that. And I thank you for doing the job you're doing at the
Minneapolis Public Schools and the board. I know and I also am a special education assistance,
Minneapolis Public Schools, and we know the struggles that students, brown and black students
and families go through every day. So um, what would you like to see change in the school
system?
Sharon Al-Emin 21:32
Oh, that's a heavy one. What would I like to see change in the schools, I want to see more
parent engagement. I want to see
more
a welcoming way for parents to be involved. We have to open the doors and let our parents in,
we have to open the door so that our parents and our teachers and our educators can build
relationships, and work together, we have to work together again, so that we are educating our
communities to understand that why our schools are underfunded, and why we are not able to
have all the resources, the way that we know is so needed, and how do we move together?
Again, how do we mobilize together to make those things happen? I want to see more dollars
going towards our schools. I mean, you know, better than I do, probably the need for in our
special education department. Right. And then when we go again, into our North Side School,
which I am the school board directors for the North side, we know that we are even less
fortunate than some of our white suburban schools, right? We know that we sometimes deal
with our schools not functioning. And the best way, we know that we sometimes I'm not gonna
say sometimes we know that our schools are staffed with more of the inexperienced teachers,
right. But we are the most diverse. on the north side, we are the most challenging when it
comes to the north side. Our children are brilliant, and they just need to be able to be taught in a
different ways. So how do we make sure that our teachers are culturally trained? Right? How do
we make sure that we leave the space for our teachers and our educators to know that we
support them, and the work that they are trying to do and provide all of that they need to be the
best that they can be? So it's it's a heavy load that we all carry. So right now, my priorities within
the school, again, is the parent engagement. I think the more that we can educate our parents
about what the school district actually represent. Where do the dollars come from? Where do
we, where did the resources come from? Whose doors Do we need to go knock that right?
When it comes to more dollars? Is it the senate? Is it our legislative is that you know, we have to
educate our community more when it comes to that and understanding the structure of how the
school is formulated. So that is my goal.
Khadra Mohamed 24:43
Thank you. Um, I also wanna come back to your role and engagement in the community and
the mosque. Tell me more about that.
Sharon Al-Emin 24:59
So I know sometimes I don't know which hat I'm wearing, right? It gets to be so much, but um,
you know, I am the wife of a Imam. And so I mesh to this continuously growing masji al Nur is
where I call home, it is where it's my home, which is located in North Minneapolis here. So I am
going to backtrack just a little bit. Because the masjid it has grown so expeditiously and doing so
many things now. We, we started, where are we in 2021, I want to say about 10 years ago,
when we were just very small, we just masjid al noor, and we began to do our hot meal
program, I was the food coordinator over that. And so every first Sunday of the month, I would
come in and I would prepare 100 meals to be given out to the community. So it was 100 hat
meals that we will prepare, and you know, I would be there cooking the meals up buying the
meals, a lot of times with other sisters, we would purchase the meals, we would cook the meal
serve the meals, and make sure that we were doing diligence in our community. So that was
one of the programs that I had a spearhead for a a couple of years now, at masjid al Nor
transitioning into now we have the Al maa'uun side, which kind of handles more of the food
administrators, the hat meals that are going on, which is which is which is really grew, which is
really grew. So it's more it's a lot more structured. Now. It was like taking that small idea and
expanding it right. And so now we have much more of a food program at our Masjid under Al
maa'uun. That's, I don't spearhead that. But again, I'm the wife of the Imam. So I have to step in
wherever it's needed. Wherever the call is still, I also was a teacher, for our students, our
Muslim children, so make sure again, that we were teaching them their religion, to make sure
that they had the opportunity to explore and understand who they are as young adults, so I have
been in the role of a teacher at our mosque, you know, creating all the different avenues of Girl
Scouts, working with our young ladies teaching them how to just again step into womanhood
and teaching them their religion. I have also coordinated a lot of the different food drives for
giveaways that we do again, through bash the door. Fast forward now, which is Al maa'uun
which is spearheaded by a different group. Because again, it began to grow so much that we
needed additional help so so yeah, that that's, that's just a little bit about me and the role that I
play within the masjid right now. So, yes.
Khadra Mohamed 28:18
Okay, that's great. Thank you for sharing that. Sharon. I also want to ask you about your
husband, the Imam, can you tell me about him and what he does?
Sharon Al-Emin 28:30
Oh, wow, no. My husband, my Makram, we have actually been married 20 it'll be 29 years this
year. 100 de la so we have had the opportunity to grow with each other. He is the Imam of the
masjid. He became the Imam Masjid when my son. Gosh, how old was that son? I want to say
two. So my son was born in 1993. He became the man back in 1995. Again, we were young, we
were young, you know, but we were I want to say that we were ready for the role that allow us
putting us into we were ready to assume the position, if you will, right. So it's been a Imam of the
masjid since 1995. He is also a life coach. So he does some life coaching. Along with again, just
numerous things that he does. He is the founder of Al Maa'uun, which is really again, like I said,
is growing expeditiously. And all the different avenues from working with the food programs to
housing programs to employment training that he oversees to just a number of they he's part of
the interfaith coalition. So, again, making sure we have that list of representation within our
interfaith community, so that we, people know that we are Muslims. And we show up and we
bring what we stand for. And so he has quite the full plate, but alhamdulilah alhamdulileh.
Khadra Mohamed 30:22
Thank you. That's, yes, he does a lot. It's well known in the community. May Allah bless him for
what he does. Um, the other question that I wanted to ask you is, what? Where do you see
yourself in the future? Or where you want to be? Personally, the masjid and anything that you
want to add?
Unknown Speaker 30:53
Sure, sure.
Sharon Al-Emin 30:56
You know, Khadra, that is, I am just gonna be open and honest with you something that I am
struggling with myself right now. Right? community is my passion. So community is my passion,
working with the schools, working with the parents, is my passion. But I also hold my full time
job with the Hennepin County Sheriff's Department. Right now today, I'm struggling with still
being able to show up for my full time job, because my heart is in my community. And so for me,
my future is more of a full time role within my community, a full time role where I can bring more
information to our mosque, to make sure that when we talk about education, that we have our
Muslims at the table, that we have our Muslim representation, that our families are able to not
be afraid of who they are. Right, and we can show up and not be afraid, right? I mean, even as
a African American Muslim, our challenges are different, right? Our challenges are different from
your challenges, right? Because of culture, because a different I thought we're both black we
have we still have a difference within ourselves. And so for me, I can remember my my children
going to school, and the during the time of Ramadan, right, and almost felt like they were
isolated because all the other children were not participating in Ramadan. Right. So and I do
apologize, you know, where Ramadan were fasting its. dry mouth. So I can remember having
conversations with my children about Ramadan, and explaining to them why we are fasting, and
having to explain to them over and over and over why we don't celebrate Christmas, right? And
having to explain to them why our religion, fast forwarding to the Aedes is only the one day and
Christmas, they get the two weeks out of school, and you know, you, you had this continued
battle that was always going on in the home. And so the children didn't feel like they could be
who truly represent themselves as Muslims, right. So it was a continuous battle, within the
homes about the fast thing about the five daily prayers, right, about the no dating about, you
know, all those different things that you have to explain to them over about them that eating
other pork and why we don't drink alcohol and why we don't smoke and why. You know, it's just
a continual conversation that we have to have in our homes. And so for me, those are all areas
where I see myself being able to bring into our community to have those conversate those
needed conversations about these different areas. And how do we how do we create this safe
space right within our messages within our community to be able to talk about these things with
our children? So futuristic, where do I see myself that that is a that's a tough question. My goal
again is more and community I'd never thought I would see myself in politics. Right? But we I
See all the time we plan and a lot of plans, and he's the best of planners, and we have to be
prepared for the roles that he sees best for us. And I know that everything that I'm doing is, is by
the will of Allah is by the grace of Allah and that he is guiding me. And so I don't know, I don't
know, I find myself more engaged in a lot more of the community issues, that we are facing
policies and wanting to understand why, and how can I make things better?
Khadra Mohamed 35:34
Yes, yes, thank you so much for touching all that. It's a lot when it comes, especially to young in
youth to understand all the different perspectives of culture and religion, and how to balance that
it's really hard. I know, a lot of students that I work with a lot of young folks that I see struggle
with identity with their religion, and also with their culture, and some of our immigrants come
from different culture. It's a really, it's hard for them to see the differences in that. So I'm glad
you touch that, and I hope someone will be able to see and read your interview and be able to
understand
this is
this is a fairly hard question. And since you are working with the community and are fairly active,
I want to ask you the current event that's happening in our community in Minnesota. We have
witnessed some justice yesterday in the case of George Floyd and the police, who have killed
him. So I do want to ask you about that the police brutality, the injustice and all that is going on
and you choose what do you want to answer?
Sharon Al-Emin 37:25
Okay.
Okay. I mean, it yesterday was a historical moment for us. I think everyone was taken by
surprise, right, we just were all sitting in bracing ourselves for the verdict to come out. And so we
found a lot of it, and I'll just speak for myself, I found myself in a lot of anxiety. You know, just
very. I mean, the unrest was real, even even within our own community. And so for me, to have
to watch the trauma of how Mr. George Floyd's life was taken right before our own eyes. And I
can remember when it happened, you know, just thinking past that, that could be my husband,
that could be my two sons. That could be my brothers. And so when I see George, I see all the
black men that are play critical roles in my life. And so to see this, and the way it unfolded, to
see him screaming out, he can't breathe. I can't breathe, my head hurt. My body hurts.
Everything hurts to hear him scream for his mother, to hear him, you know, scream out for his
daughter, it just again, as a mother of an African American son. It hurts everything in your body.
Because again, we know that that could be our child. That could be us. That could be us. And
so yesterday's verdict brought a moment of relief. I don't say justice just yet. Because we we still
have or let me take it back. I say it's the start of justice is the start of justice for us. Because it's
one verdict does not healed all the wounds that we have had to bear for years. Right. And so I
actually felt like I could breathe a little bit yesterday when the verdict came in, actually felt like
that anxiety was knocked down just a little bit for the moment. But I know that we still deal with it
every day. In fact, while we were out with community, another black teens life was taken by the
hands of the police, Daunte Wright? Not that day, Wrigh was one. But then there was another
teenager that was just shot and killed a column in Ohio. At the same time, and so for me, black
America, the pain that we in the pain that we have suffered over the years, that one vertic is not
justice. And our attorney general Keith Ellison said it in the best way, he said, this is how
accountability looks. Right? He said, how these offices where this officer was held accountable
for his actions. And as we go on, and we hear more, and we know that justice is when our black
men and women does not have to be afraid, when they see the blue and red sirens, in the back
of their cars, right? When they are pulled over by the one who's supposed to protect us. Right?
That's when justice will be served. So we have a lot of work to do. It was a moment of relief. But
it was a start of the accountability. And it shows me how we we again, we have to occupy the
seat, the strong leadership that is needed on the political Avenue, right, and how we have to we
have to continue to mobilize our community, we have to continue to protest and we have to
continue to show up and demand and command the accountability that has to happen across
the board that is in our education system that is in our criminal justice system that is in our
housing system across the board of what needs to take place for us for black and brown people.
Khadra Mohamed
Most definitely I am going to wrap up and say thank you so much for taking this time to give me
your oral history and giving this history for Muslims in MN if there is anything else you want to
add I will love to hear it.
Sharom Al-Emin
I mean sister Khadra I think we have touch quite a bit being black in American we know it is a
full time job right and being a Muslim African American in America makes the job even more
twices hard so we again have to continue to show up we have to continue to being in a space
we have to continue to have work to have safe space and being able have broad conversations
to be able to be authentic and be able to show up and not to be afraid to repersent our selves as
African American Muslims.
Khadra Mohamed
Absulitly I can not top anything on that so I am going to stop on there and Thank you so much.
Sharon Al-Emin
Alhamdulileh Alhamdulileh your welcome
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